open thread – June 30-July 1, 2017

by Alison Green on June 30, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Sunflower*

    Anyone have any good resources(books, websites) for trying to plot out your next career move? Or any experiences from folks who have transitioned into a different field with transferable skills?

    I’m going to be job searching(and hopefully moving cities) in the next 5 months and I’m not sure I want to stay in event planning. It’s high stress- which I don’t necessarily mind- but the pay isn’t great and I think I could make more money doing something I like just as much. I’m really good at talking to people- my favorite part of my job is schmoozing with clients at events. I’m looking mostly into sales or project/logistics management jobs but I’m unsure what level I would start at among other questions. Or maybe I’m missing other jobs that would be a good fit for this?

    1. the possibilities are endless with event planning*

      A good friend of mine transitioned from a career in event planning to public librarianship. She spent two years getting her MLS, and now she is the branch manager at a local public library. It was a good fit for her, because public libraries are prime venues for all kinds of events, and hers are the best attended in the county.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I did What Color is Your Parachute. Did all of the exercises. It really helped me focus on what I was good at, what I really liked to do, and what kind of environment and colleagues that I liked to work in and with.

        1. Fluffer Nutter*

          Ditto- I liked the exercises, although I’d dubious about the advice to cold call companies in search of the “hidden” jobs. Otherwise, good read.

    2. Jesca*

      I would just start looking at open jobs in a general sense. Read the job descriptions and see if a of them appeal to you. Then just do the resume and cover letter tailoring and see how it goes! I do not think it is a stretch to move into any of those types of careers you mention.

    3. super anon*

      I’ve been working through the book Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. It’s been super useful for me to identify the things that I like, don’t like, what I may be good at, etc to help start plotting out what I should be looking at for future career moves. I’d definitely recommend it, it’s super interesting!

    4. Natasha*

      Have you considered executive recruiting ? That’s another great job for people with good social skills.

    5. 1st time poster*

      The New Rules of Work: The Modern Playbook for Navigating Your Career by Alexandra Cavoulacos and Kathryn Minshew. These are the women who started TheMuse.com. I cannot say enough good things about this book! I’m in the “figuring out what you want” portion, and the method laid out in the book has been perfect for me. If you buy the ebook version, be sure to download and print the exercise pages from the website. It’s super confusing otherwise.

    6. SansaStark*

      In DC, development (fundraising) often pairs with event planning so that might be something worth exploring.

    7. Kate*

      I went from alumni relations and development (which was 50% event planning) to corporate recruiting. It has the same combination of managing many complex projects (but searches instead of events) and building relationships, both with managers and candidates. It’s about the same stress level as event planning, but the stress is more evenly distributed over the year, instead of the stress rollercoaster of event planning. There are more jobs in recruiting than in event planning. And sometimes I get to scratch the event planning itch by planning a job fair, and everybody is impressed by my ability to put on a really simple event.

    8. Anony Mouse*

      If you want to work on your resume, I recommend the Blue Sky Guide to Resume Writing (e-book). Several years ago, a friend gave me a copy, and it was immensely helpful.

    9. bleh*

      I’m seconding the advice to look at nonprofit fundraising/development if you haven’t already. There are lots of roles there that do some event planning mixed with other things where you could be really valuable, and it’s definitely a field where you need to schmooze!!

    10. Huntington*

      Wow, if it got out that you did that, soooo many candidates absolutely wouldn’t risk ever applying to your company. It’s such a huge NO and risk to their current employment.

      1. Not a Morning Person*

        Did what? I haven’t seen anything that sounds risky mentioned, so I’m curious what you mean?

      2. Not a Morning Person*

        Now that I’ve read farther down, I can see you probably were talking about contacting the manager of an applicant. You’re right, that would be such a violation!

    11. Always with a book recomendation*

      A while ago when I was doing some searching hoping to find a new area to work in I read Quitter and Start by Jon Acuff.

    12. Didi*

      Hi Sunflower,
      I made a career change a couple of years ago, from managing a group in an editorial field to doing research at a financial services firm. I spun my wheels for a while when trying to planning out my next career move. Finally I hit on this process, which got me something I love.

      1. I made a list of all my “hard” skills. Not a list of what I do or what I’ve accomplished, but just verifiable skills, such as “writing, researching, managing projects” etc.
      2. I made a list of all my “soft” skills, such as “perseverance, patience, resourcefulness.”
      3. I made a list of things I do not like doing/don’t want to do anymore, such as “running meetings” and “managing a large team.”
      4. I made note of times I was “in flow” at my job. That is, the times when I enjoyed my job the most. I wrote down what I was doing at that moment, what the outcomes were and why I enjoyed it. For example, I really enjoyed a project where I was designing new processes.
      5. I made note of times when the clock seemed to stand still at my job and I felt I couldn’t stand it anymore. For example, I really hated working with the IT department on a project.

      I looked for jobs that would give me opportunities to use #1 and #2 as much as possible and #3 as little as possible, also times when I could do #4 as much as possible.

  2. Laura*

    I recently interviewed someone who currently works at another company that’s in the same industry (so transferable skills/background knowledge etc.) but has very different functions and objectives. When asked why she wanted to change jobs, she explained what we do here is more in line with her long term career goals.

    The thing is, unbeknownst to her, I know her manager on a personal basis (which is not why she was interviewed, I didn’t realise until afterwards). Would it be breaking any sort of codes to alert her manager to the fact their employee is looking to leave (assuming they don’t already know)? Especially since she doesn’t view them as being a ‘career’ sort of place so even if we didn’t hire her (still too early to decide at this point) she’s obviously thinking of leaving?

    1. Christy*

      Yes, it would be a HUGE violation! That’s a really crappy thing to do to that employee. There’s an expectation of privacy.

    3. CAA*

      Do not do this! It’s grossly unfair to the employee who has a right to keep her job search private.

    5. ZSD*

      Yes, I think it would be inappropriate to notify her current manager that she’s looking to leave. As an interviewer, you’re supposed to keep that confidential.

    7. Discordia Angel Jones*

      I wouldn’t do that.

      It may have unintended consequences up to and including the employee being fired.

      It does depend on how you think your friend would react, but in case those higher up than your friend then decide to let the interviewee go, I would still not risk it, personally, because I wouldn’t want to put someone out of a job (which, if they view it as career or not, presumably they need it to pay bills).

    8. Another person*

      I don’t understand why you would even want to do that. What do you get out of causing drama for other people?

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        This is my question. Why would you want to disclose this information? Because the person’s manager is your friend? I’m struggling to see why this is any of her business, let alone why it’s Laura’s specific business to try to blow up the candidate’s current job.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          But Laura isn’t asking “Can I ask her boss about her?” Laura is asking “Can I tell her boss that she is about to quit and doesn’t consider the job her career?” That is a really petty and underhanded thing to do, and for absolutely no reason!

          And I was thinking the same thing “Why in the heck would you even consider such a terrible thing?”

        2. RR*

          If the LW was friends with a PREVIOUS manager, sure. The expectation of privacy and confidentiality with respect to a CURRENT position is more important.

          1. designbot*

            Even with a previous manager, ask the candidate if it’s okay to talk to them! My current job did this with me, and I was really grateful for the heads up, because the previous manager’s partner was one of the principals responsible for the group I was in at the time. Thankfully he was fine not mentioning to his partner that I was interviewing but if he hadn’t been and they called without asking, that could have gone very badly.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Laura is pretty clear that she has no intention of asking her friend for a candid reference. She talks exclusively about ways in which she can damage the candidate’s job security and relationship with her manager (“alerting” her that the employee is interviewing/thinking of leaving, noting that she doesn’t see her current employer as where she wants to build her “career” and so even if Laura’s company doesn’t hire the candidate, the manager will be told the candidate doesn’t intend to stay, etc.). That’s pretty awful, and not even remotely related to obtaining a reference.

      3. memyselfandi*

        I thought he point was to let the other manager know that her employees don’t think of her company as a place to build a career. That being said, if I did that it would have to be in a general conversation about the topic, “Is your company a good place to work.,” to encourage reflection and not about any specific knowledge of an employees career plans.

        1. writelhd*

          yeah but that’s really not the other manager’s business. If people did that when job candidates came interviewing, then nobody would ever feel safe enough to interview somewhere.

    10. JokeyJules*

      Personally I wouldn’t tell the manager. You don’t know their relationship or the workplace policies, and if you don’t hire and she is terminated from the job she has no, regardless of whether it’s a ‘career’ job or not, it might really devastate her financially.

    11. Lookingforanswers*

      Do not tell your friend one of her employees is job looking. You could put that employee in danger of being terminated. If the employee is hired at your company and that employees former manager (your friend) asks why they left, then you can say they didn’t feel they had a career here. If they are not hired still do not tell your friend that the employee is job searching. Think of it if you were the candidate looking for a new job. Would you want the person interviewing you telling their buddy (your current boss) that you are looking for a job?

      1. NacSacJack*

        I would have to disagree. Once they are your employee, I would not discuss their career aspirations or any comments made with their former manager. They may need to go back to that employer at some point. At most, I would tell former manager that they are settling into their job.

        1. Lance*

          Agreed; it’s not a previous manager’s business to ask the new manager why an employee left for their place of work, nor the new manager’s business to say anything about it, whether they know any of the reasons or not.

          1. Paula, with Two Kids*

            Yes, that’s what the Exit Interviews are about anyways. Employee gives as much information as they feel comfortable giving. Not the place of their next employer to give a fuller picture.

    14. Cleopatra Jones*

      Why on Earth would you do that?!?! She’s just stating that the company is not in line with her long term career goal, and she’s looking to move to a company that aligns with the vision she has for herself. Her personal long term career goals are not a slight against her employer or manager. It’s her wanting to pursue her own happiness.

      1. LizzE*

        Exactly! Plus, many people have worked jobs or at organizations’s that did not align with our long-term career goals – sometimes, people just need to pay the bills to get by or until something better comes along. This candidate’s motivations are of no concern to Laura and not worth putting her in a compromising situation just because she happens to be friends with this woman’s current boss.

        1. Midge*

          The candidate saying that the current company isn’t in line with her long-term goals might not even be the whole/real reason that she is leaving. It’s possible that your friend is a bad manager and her department is a toxic environment, for example. Or maybe something more benign, but still related to your friend. I don’t see an upside for sharing this information that outweighs the many potential negatives.

    16. k.k*

      If you were in her shoes, would you want someone telling your manager that you were interviewing?

    17. Sibley*

      Laura, assuming you’ve been reading AMA for a while, I’m sure you’ve seen various posts about the crappy things that managers have done. Or could do. You’re contemplating one of them. Think about that.

      And don’t tell this person’s manager that they’re looking.

    18. AdAgencyChick*

      PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS.

      This happened to me. I will never forget the name of the employee (who was not the hiring manager) who ratted me out to my manager. I will never work for that person, should she be in a position to hire me.

      You may think of this as helping your friend out, but you’ll be putting this candidate’s job in jeopardy, and making a serious breach of professional trust.

    19. AnonMarketer*

      I get you might feel you owe your friend loyalty in this area, but please don’t do this! It’s not illegal or unethical to look for a new job or otherwise take a job you currently have to pay the bills (and most people do!). Please don’t do that; that’s INCREDIBLY unfair to the interviewee who hasn’t done anything wrong. Personally, I think it’s kudos to the interviewee for knowing how she’d like to proceed in her career and making the steps to get them accomplished!

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Not to mention, I doubt the Op knows the ins and outs of working for her friends company as intimately as this candidate does. There’s clearly some nuanced specific differences that the Op doesn’t like and probably have nothing to do with her manager/ Ops friend. And since when do people stay at one company their entire career anymore and need to have that sense of loyalty for their employer above themselves??

    21. Muriel Heslop*

      Please don’t do that! That could really torpedo her at her current job, whether or not she plans to stay there forever.

      Plus, no matter how much I cared about someone personally, I would really think less of them for doing something so unprofessional. And that would be extremely unprofessional of you.

    22. Sabrina Spellman*

      I’m sure you’d feel awful if you told your friend and this individual was fired over it. Your friend isn’t entitled to know the ins and outs of your job search, so don’t involve her in it by outing her employee.

    23. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      You are asking if it’s OK to rat her out to her current boss?

      DON’T.

      Well YEAH. It is breaking a series of professional codes. One, when someone comes in for an interview, he/she has expectations that you won’t pick up the phone and do a rat-out. Even if the manager at her current situation is a pal of yours.

      Also, I am not a lawyer but do know that there have been charges of “restraint of trade” – through collusion. Whether you intend to do so or not – if you make such a call, you’re messing with the interviewee’s career and putting it in jeopardy.

      If you don’t want to hire her , even if she’s the best candidate, because you value your personal relationship with your pal over what’s best for your company, that’s one thing.

      But going out of your way to take an action, that would irreparably hurt your interviewee’s current situation – immoral, unethical, and perhaps – PERHAPS = illegal.

      Sorry for using the harsh terms “rat out”, “collusion”, etc. – but that’s what it is, even if it’s not your intention.

      1. Observer*

        Oh, come on. Let’s not jump into scare territory. Giving the other manager a heads up doesn’t come close to restraint of trade or anything like it.

        This actually comes up a lot here, because sometimes employers have a good reason to reach out to the current employer and sometimes they reach out even when they shouldn’t and then person who has been outed writes in her and asks “the hiring manager told my current manager and I’m in trouble. Is this legal” and the answer is always “Yes, it’s legal.”

        That’s not to say that Laura should reach out. But none of the reasons against it are about legality.

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            It’s not illegal. (I am a lawyer, and I am not making that up). You don’t have a right to privacy in this context in a legal sense.

            You DO have a right to privacy in the moral sense, in the professional norms sense, and it would be an incredibly crappy thing to do to a job seeker. But there is no legal issue. (Not everything that is wrong is illegal.)

              1. Claire from London*

                Yeah, it would be illegal in Germany too. You’d be using personal data you became aware as part of your work for a purpose for which was not collected in the first place and outside of your job in the second. Both would be seriously illegal.

              2. Jessesgirl72*

                That’s why I specified the US. ;) I know that much of Europe has privacy laws. The ones in the US cover much less.

                But as has been pointed out, just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.

            2. NEW YEAR, NEW ME*

              I was saying this person should have the right to keep their job search private.

              1. Jessesgirl72*

                She certainly has a moral right, but at least in the United States, she has no legal right, whether or not she “should”

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Dude, this isn’t illegal, and it’s not remotely close to “restraint of trade,” collusion, or any similar economic tort. But good people should not go out of their way to destroy a stranger’s job, and that moral/ethical imperative should be valid enough for Laura to refrain from taking her suggested course of action.

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          It’s called ethics and decent recruiters and hiring managers follow them.

      3. Newby*

        Just because something is the wrong thing to do does not make it illegal. Please don’t jump to “illegal” just because you think it’s a terrible thing to do and you think they shouldn’t be able to do it. In this case, she can legally tell her friend whatever she wants. It’s a shitty thing to do, but it is legal.

    24. PB*

      Yes, it breaks all of the codes. Why would you want to tell her manager? It would be unkind to the applicant, and it wouldn’t benefit you at all.

    25. Artemesia*

      In other words you want to sandbag the job of someone who has interviewed at your company. Why would you want to punish someone for applying for a job with you? This is just nasty nasty stuff.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        “Why would you want to punish someone for applying for a job with you?”

        I was trying to find a way to say exactly this. BINGO.

      2. KT*

        This is my thought. Do not do that. What is your end goal?

        Not only could you severely damage the candidate’s standing at her current job, and possibly future jobs, but you could potentially limit your own candidate pool.

        If I was the candidate and you told my current boss that I’m thinking about leaving, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will tell ALL of my friends and anyone who ever considered applying to your company. Candidates worth their salt aren’t going to risk privacy and good standing. The gamble of ‘I may get this job vs. I may be fired for applying/interviewing’ are not at all equal in outcome.

        Do not do this. Period.

        3. Bea W*

          A smart candidate would probably also not want to work with someone who did this even if they were offered the job. The end result may be sabotaging your own employer.

    27. Friday*

      Nooooo no no no no please don’t! I’m in a small industry where everyone knows everyone, and my last two job searches/job changes were done covertly with people who totally knew and interacted with the people I worked with at the time. We keep things quiet no matter what, and nobody has any hard feelings. Especially since in such an industry, we usually end up working with the same people down the road!

    28. NEW YEAR, NEW ME*

      Please don’t do that. You would be putting this interviewee in an uncomfortable situation with her manager. You don’t know what this person’s work station is like – etc., bad management, low pay, no growth. Put yourself in her shoes: would you want your boss to know you’re job hunting and how would you feel if he/she found out.

    29. The Other Dawn*

      Do not do that! If I were the candidate and an interviewer outed me as job searching to my current boss, I’d be seriously pissed off and would flat-out turn down any offer (assuming I got one). And pissed enough that I would make sure all my friends, family, and past and present coworkers knew, so they could avoid applying there. Huge breach of trust.

        1. Jadelyn*

          It would get you labeled as a drama llama if you were my friend and pulled this kind of stunt, for sure. Since I can’t think of any other reason to do it than for the friction it would cause between me and my employee.

    30. alter_ego*

      NOOOOOOOO. This just happened to me. A company that my recruiter sent my resume to told my boss, and then didn’t even invite me for an interview. Now, I got really really lucky, in that I work for great people, my boss didn’t hold it against me, and didn’t mention it to anyone else. But it would have really really damaged my job here if the circumstances were different.

      2. Hedgehog*

        This actually happened to me, too! I came in to give my notice and found out everyone already knew because my grandboss-to-be had alerted my grandboss “as a courtesy” (I was never clear on if she had called her before or after I accepted the offer). And the weirdest part was that there was another employee who was switching companies in the opposite direction but hadn’t given her notice yet, so it ended up super awkward for my original grandboss because she knew she was poaching from them, too, but couldn’t say anything.

    31. Caro in the UK*

      No, please don’t! It’d be horribly unprofessional at best. At worst it could result in her getting fired.

      People leave employment all the time, for many, many reasons. Your employees moving on to new opportunities is a totally normal part of being a manager. Although you might feel that you owe your friend a heads up, there is absolutely no need for him to know, it’s part of his/her job to deal with this if and when the employee hands in her notice.

      Just don’t do it.

    32. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      I might also add – if you want to keep your CURRENT job – also, don’t do this. I’ve seen people fired for breaking such confidences. When someone comes in to interview for a job at your firm, it’s not just personally confidential, it’s COMPANY confidential.

      1. MicroManagered*

        Yes this. Even if OP doesn’t connect to the personal obligation not to break this confidence, it’s likely that doing so could put them in hot water. I know if a prospective employer ratted me out to my current employer for an interview, I’d be on the horn with their HR making sure it was dealt with.

      2. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Yes – the company would not be happy to know its interviewers were doing this to job candidates – because if word got out that the interviewers would try to torpedo interviewees’ current jobs, job candidates would be a lot less willing to ever apply there!

      3. CityMouse*

        I would also consider firing someone for doing this. It prioritizes the friend’s company over the interests of her company.

    33. Ramona Flowers*

      Why on earth would you do this? When someone applies for a job with you, they do so in confidence.

      In my country you would actually be breaking the law by divulging this information without consent.

    34. MMDD*

      Good God, what would you possess you to do this?? Good luck finding candidates for any other job you post if you did that and it got out. And I can assure you, if you did that to me, everyone in our industry (including your boss) would know about it.

    35. RR*

      As many folks have already noted, yes, this is DEFINITELY violating the normal expectation that there should be a general expectation of privacy and discretion. Something else to consider — YOUR good name and reputation, along with that of your company’s, could also be harmed if you did this and word got out. Don’t do it!

    39. kiwidg1*

      While I would caution against it, I can see another point of view I haven’t seen any one else raise.

      What if Laura is trying to help both her friend and the employee. The commenters mostly assume that Laura would do this to rat out the employee.

      But what if Laura wants to tell her friend: “Hey, I just interviewed someone from your company that doesn’t see job progression in their current position. While that may be true for this individual, whom I can’t name, you may want to know that perception in your company exists. It might be time to think about your directs and ask if you’re doing what you need to to retain them and show them the forward progression open to them.”

      Just a thought I had.

      1. RR*

        Even if you don’t name them, chances are high that it would be very easy to determine who the applicant is. And, you’re still violating the basic principle of keeping job searches confidential.

      2. JulieBulie*

        That’s the kind of information that can come out during the applicant’s exit interview, if it really is an issue.

        And that might not even be the real reason the applicant wants to leave her current employer – there could be any number of reasons that she might not wish to share.

        1. kiwidg1*

          The point is, as an employer, you don’t want to hear that when the person is leaving, if it was something you could have done something about had you known earlier.

          1. Not a Morning Person*

            I understand that the manager might want an opportunity to counter offer for a valued employee, but in that case, the manager should ask earlier than by the time the employee has reached a point of applying and getting interviews elsewhere. If a manager thinks an employee is of value to the organization and wants to keep that employee, then the manager needs to communicate that. Even so, if an employee is more interested in other opportunities or other work, then that’s the way the job world works; people are allowed to seek other opportunities for any reason whatsoever, just like most employers can let an employee go, for most any reason (other than illegal reasons). And it would be crappy to sabotage someone’s job search or their relationship with their manager by outing their job search.

      3. Jadelyn*

        Okay, but then have that as a *separate conversation* well AFTER you’ve interviewed their current employee and either hired or not hired them.

          1. Specialk9*

            Nope, not even then. It’s like giving your friend’s *spouse* advice about their marriage based on something hugely sensitive your friend told you in confidence. “Hey, I’ve heard that this pill is great for erectile dysfunction”… “Hey, why isn’t friend talking to me anymore?”

            You don’t narc a interviewee out to their current/previous employer. Especially when the interviewee gave such a positive, non-complaining reason that didn’t mention any of the things they actually hate about the current/previous manager/job, because THEY understand professionalism.

      4. Jessie the First (or second)*

        I don’t think that would accomplish what you want it to accomplish.

        There is no indication that there isn’t forward job progression- the job candidate did not say she was “stuck” at her job. The job candidate performs different functions and objectives at her current job and is looking for something different. That’s not a question of not being promoted, it’s a question of wanting a different job. You can’t fix that by calling the other manager and telling her someone is looking for a job.

        Also,there is just no way you can know from the outside, as an interviewer, what the actual culture/job/management/environment is like at this person’s current job. So you actually have NO IDEA about, really, anything. You have one exchange with a person about her career goals – that does not give you enough information to say anything.

        And also, you have no idea if it is a healthy workplace or a toxic one – if toxic, then that suggested script will bring trouble (suspicious manager starts interrogating her employees and watching them super closely).

        I get that these people know each other outside of work, but they have different employers. There is no friendship duty that extends to “making sure my friend’s employees at another company do not change jobs.”

        Interfering, even while attempting to keep it anonymous for the employee, has the real risk of doing harm but very little chance of doing good.

        1. Lance*

          And all the more so… it’s just one person. Sure, if it was multiple people from the same company, maybe there would be something to it; but even then, that would be an issue for their current employer to discover and deal with, not for someone on the outside to bring up and potentially stir the pot in bad ways.

      5. nonegiven*

        She didn’t say she didn’t see progression, she said she saw the new job better progressing her in the direction she wants to go.

    40. Tuna maki*

      Sorry to sort of derail , but I’ve been on the other side of this. Someone told me my employee was interviewing with someone I know. How would all of you have handled that?

      1. Jadelyn*

        First and foremost, don’t hold it against your employee. That’s just a fast way to ensure that nobody ever tells you anything until the day they’re ready to walk out.

        Secondly, if you know who it is and they’re someone you want to retain, you could have a brief conversation with them about if there’s anything in particular that’s made them want to leave. But you’d have to handle the conversation very delicately to make sure they don’t feel pressured or anything, and assure them that you’re not going to hold anything they say against them.

        To be honest, I would probably just sit on the information, maybe use it as a cue to review our progression opportunities, pay structure, work environment, etc. but never mention it to anyone.

      2. Rat in the Sugar*

        I’m not a manager, but I would guess that the first step is to make sure that you’ve got all your plans in place so that if the employee did come to you tomorrow and put in their two weeks, you would be prepared for a smooth transition. Not everybody gets this kind of warning so I would take advantage of this to make sure that all your documentation is in place and you have plans for what to do when somebody leaves.

        As for whether you should talk to the employee about it and try to start making actual transition plans, I’m not as sure and I will leave that advice to somebody who knows better.

      3. Ramona Flowers*

        I would have told them I wasn’t interested in hearsay about confidential matters that concerned other people and to please stop talking.

        1. PB*

          This. Something like, “I appreciate your concern, but I value the privacy of my employees. In the future, please do not share this information with me.”

      4. Jessie the First (or second)*

        I would have let the employee in question know that I knew, I would have assured them that there would be no fallout on my side – and I would make sure there absolutely was not – and then I would ask them (assuming I preferred the employee to stay) if there was something that we could alter about their job/responsibility/schedule/whatever to encourage them to stay.

      5. Marillenbaum*

        In general, I would default to not saying anything, simply because I want to exhibit the behavior I’d hope to receive. That said, I would also advise you to prepare discreetly in case they depart–not in a way that involves running things up the chain of command, but a check that you already have the necessary documentation and access in case that person got hit by a bus tomorrow. It’s wise to have anyway, but in general I wouldn’t punish the person who’s looking (but the person who blabbed would get some serious side-eye: some stuff should be confidential).

      6. CityMouse*

        This happened to my friend. He was thinking about joining an org we worked with and interviewed there. They called his boss. He still works here and everything is okay. One, I Would take goal stuff said in an interview with a grain of salt: someone is trying to sell themselves. Two, it is perfectly normal to leave jobs. If they made a complaint about conditions I would see if that was legitimate and try to rectify problems. But ultimately in any job you should be prepared for anyone to leave, that is just reality.

      7. AdAgencyChick*

        There’s “what it would be a kindness to do,” and “what you are morally obliged to do.”

        As upsetting as it was when this happened to me, I *don’t* think my boss at the time should have been under any moral obligation not to act on the information he had. After all, he didn’t ask for it. He could very easily have not said a word to me, while quietly starting to look around for my replacement.

        What he did was probably not the wisest solution from his point of view: He sat me down in his office a couple of weeks after he must have been told, and asked me, “Why are you unhappy here?” He didn’t say out loud that he knew I had been interviewing, and he didn’t tell me how he knew. I knew that he knew, but didn’t know how he had figured it out. (That information came to me later, after I had resigned.) I managed the conversation as best I could and gave some reasons while trying like hell to make it seem like the situation was fixable, when I knew deep down I would be out in a hot second if I could be.

        I went deep undercover for all job searching at that point (which is why I say it wasn’t the wisest move on his part — if he had said nothing, I might not have been so careful). I explained my situation to potential recruiters and asked for off-site interviews (because my industry is small and a lot of people know each other, so I didn’t want to be sitting in the lobby of an agency and have someone who knew my boss see me). I asked recruiters to send me emails with cryptic subject lines, just in case anyone was looking over my shoulder at my Gmail screen. Et cetera.

        It would have been a kindness if he had said instead, “Why are you unhappy here? Someone at XYZ Agency told me you were interviewing.” Then I would have at least known where the leak was, and he might have earned a bit of my trust by showing that he understood the breach of confidentiality and didn’t agree with it. But I totally get why he didn’t do that.

      8. Jessesgirl72*

        I’d say “Huh, interesting” and then be prepared for when/if the person actually resigned, and go on business as usual until then.

        I might want to ask if there was a way to retain them, if I wanted to retain them, but there’s no real way to guarantee someone will believe you when you say “It’s totally okay and normal” and won’t go into total paranoid mode. So I’d just keep quiet.

    41. Alli525*

      There are industries where leaking info like this is a CRIMINAL matter. Doesn’t sound like that’s the case here, but there is NO benefit to telling your friend, and HUGE risk for the employee. We’ve all had jobs that don’t fit our career goals, but rent is due every month no matter what. Don’t put this woman’s livelihood at risk – it’s unprofessional and mean, at best.

    42. CityMouse*

      Adding my voice to the chorus of Nooooooos. It is massively unprofessional and would potentially screw over your applicant. If I was interviewing or was a recruiter and heard this story, I would avoid your company because it shows a lack of reasonable privacy, respect for norms, and respect for the well-being of applicants. Do not do it.

    43. nonegiven*

      Do you want her to put your company on Glassdoor as outing her to her current employer and causing her problems with her boss for other job seekers to see?

    44. Thinking Outside the Boss*

      I’ve tried my best to bite my tongue, but I can’t.

      Laura, I’m a manager and if you worked for me, and I found out that you were calling your friends to let them know their employees were looking for work with our company before we had made a decision to make the candidate an offer and check references, I would fire you that day. No questions ask. This is such a serious breech of professionalism that I’m gobsmacked.

      And if had advice for the candidate, I would say run far far away from your company. If this is how you envision treating candidates you should be trying to impress as an employer, aka hiring is a two-way street, I can only imagine what you all do to your employees.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Your post is awesome and sums it up perfectly. Excellent way you would handle it if your employee did that.

    45. Peanut*

      Wow, why would you even think of doing this? I don’t get it. That’s just mean. You don’t know when this person will actually leave her company, so it’s not like you’re saving her company from being left high and dry. Telling her manager is just going to get her treated differently or fired.

      And so what if she doesn’t see her company as fitting her long term career goals? I’ve had over 20 employers. Do you know how many of them I saw as meeting my long term career goals when I started? Two. Spoiler alert: I don’t still work at either place.

    46. It's-a-me*

      While for the most part I agree with the overwhelming response of ‘NO’ that has happened in reply here, I have read and re-read Laura’s post and want to ask… Laura, if the manager is your friend, was your intention to help the applicant, by encouraging your friend to work on retaining her?

      Perhaps there’s context here we don’t have – maybe Laura’s friend in management is a great person with a focus on employee happiness, and Laura thinks she would be interested in knowing so that said manager could help the applicant, address her concerns about the lack of career, etc.

      IF that’s the case, and I have no clue if it is or is just my natural tendency to play devil’s/angel’s advocate, then I would suggest Laura:
      Think very hard about if you want to do this or not.
      Think very hard about how much you trust your friend.
      Think again about if you want to do this.
      Make sure you’re legally allowed to do this.
      Make sure your company policies allow you to do this.
      *Strongly* consider discussing it with the applicant first. (In fact I’m tempted to SHOUT ‘discuss it with the applicant first!’)
      THEN:
      Talk to your friend using a totally anonymous hypothetical FIRST: “If I happened to know one of your employees was planning on leaving due to dissatisfaction with their job, how would you react? Would you help them, or would you be obligated to report/take action against them?’
      Proceed from there, using best judgement.

      But I would definitely lean more towards doing nothing at all. I don’t think it’s really your place.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Regardless of whether Laura thinks this would be helping, what it actually does is put the employee’s job in jeopardy. The hypothetical doesn’t matter because the friend is going to immediately wonder who it is.

        If Laura is feeling like she is backstabbing her friend, the correct way to handle it is this: AFTER hiring the person, and with that person’s full knowledge, Laura tells the friend “We have offered to bring Wakeen on board and he has accepted. I am letting you know as a courtesy so you have the opportunity to make him a counteroffer and retain him.”

        1. It's-a-me*

          Oh absolutely, I mainly wanted to bring up that there might have been good intentions towards the applicant behind this question, not malice as many people seemed to think. And hopefully if Laura already had her mind set on talking to the manager (that everyone’s responses have not dissuaded), make her think about HOW she does that.

    47. Susan*

      I don’t want to add to the pile-on here because I think the point has been made that this would be a terrible thing to do, but I just want to say, I’m really glad that Laura came here to ask before going through with this. I hope the responses have convinced her not to do it.

    48. Ari*

      You’ve gotten a lot of feedback. Another possibility is that the applicant has already discussed this with their boss. It’s unlikely, sure.
      I was searching and when I got a verbal offer let my supervisor know I would take an offer, if made. They said that they would keep it confidential (and did) and were supprortive of my desire to pursue educational opportunities not possible in my current situation. I disclosed knowing it could result in being walked out same day. But my desire to give them information to plan with (off season for hiring in this industry) was weighted higher. I also knew a transition would be kinder if four weeks+ long but I wanted to give two weeks notice. I didn’t want to leave a mess; I have too much affection for my team for that.
      Going from a good job to a good job is nice. The things that led to my decision to look were out of my supervisor’s control.

  3. Katie the Fed*

    The thread earlier this week (and my growing baby bump) reminded me to ask this:

    Where is a good place to get not-too-expensive maternity clothes for work? I can get away with the more casual end of business-casual for this purpose. I will need stuff to take me into fall and winter.

    Also, I’m plus size which makes this even tougher. :/

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Katie, I loved Milk Nursing Wear and wished I’d found it while pregnant. They have a maternity line. I found the prices to be on pair with normal work clothes. Lots of variety. Plus you get points for buying to redeem later. If you need one or two pieces that are dressier then I’d try Ann Taylor or Loft as they do online maternity. I had one dress from Motherhood Maternity that was my “dressy” work dress. I rolled through my 3 pairs of maternity pants and one skirt for my pregnancy and I was due in December.

      And if you are going to nurse/pump, their selection is great. You don’t have to strip down to nurse or pump.

    2. Ash (the other one)*

      Look on Poshmark. Seriously… great quality clothes (Seraphina, Isabella Olivier, Pea in a Pod), gently used, good prices and you can barter.

    3. Murphy*

      I got most of my maternity clothes on eBay. Since they don’t get worn for very long, most used maternity clothes are still in pretty good condition.

      My local Motherhood Maternity store is technically an outlet, so they had a lot of good sales that I occasionally took advantage of. But I can’t speak to their plus size collection.

      2. Chameleon*

        This. There is tons of great, cheap used stuff out there. Try baby consignment stores, as they pretty often have a maternity wear section as well. I got most of my clothes this way. Also, Old Navy has cheap but comfy casual wear (especially jeans).

    4. Justme*

      My first recommendation is to layer. My sprog made me SO DARNED HOT while I was pregnant. I’m a size 18 and Target and Old Navy stuff fit me while I was pregnant, but their top size in maternity wear is a 18/xxl (which is ridiculous). I will second the suggestions for Ebay or secondhand stores.

      1. Nisie*

        Target, Ebay, Old Navy, kids consignment stores, consignment sales. I got my heavy coat from Modern Maternity and still wear it. Bras- I went up 2 cups and 2 sizes and then invested in breastfeeding bras when I got in the 8th month.

    5. EP*

      Pink Blush – I’m not pregnant but I have bought dresses from their “regular” lines – their regular sizes go to 16 usually and then the Plus sizes start at 14W – sign up for their emails and you get a 20% off code at least twice a week

    6. businessfish*

      Motherhood maternity definitely has plus sizes. I made it through my whole pregnancy with one pair of black pants and like 6 empire waist shirts from there.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I spent the money for a good pair of black pants from Motherhood Maternity and it was totally worth it. Wore them all the time and felt relatively comfortable.

      2. AMD*

        Ditto! Week 34, currently rocking my MM black pants. Them + 2pairs jeans and shorts have got me through the whole way.

    7. MJH*

      My coworker orders rental maternity wear from Le Tote. It’s not cheap, but it’s cheaper than buying an entire maternity wardrobe and offers more variety, too.

    8. NLMC*

      First, congrats on the new addition. How exciting!
      Second, maternity shopping is honestly the worst. So many stores no longer sell in house and everything is done online which is a pain since you really have no idea what size you are.
      Motherhood Maternity has some really good basics, but I feel so much of it (at least two years ago, I’m about to have to go back again myself!) was too casual for work. Pea in a Pod has nicer items, but I refused to pay $100+ for maternity dresses. I guess some people’s definition of affordable is much different than mine.
      I’ve heard great things about Poshmark, but again, online!!??
      You can find some great cloths on buy, sell, trade sites or online garage sales. Yes, these are online, but if they are local you might be able to at least see them or maybe even try them on before buying. You can also sometimes luck out at kids consignment shops but those are hit or miss. Same at thrift shops.
      I was honestly surprised when someone suggested Sears to me, but they had a decent section and I was able to find some nicer items.
      Additional aggravation about maternity clothes — sizing: When I research online several sites said sizes should match what you normally wear (if you wear a 10 in jeans you’ll wear 10 maternity, the manufacturer makes allowances) That is a lie. Most of what I found was S, M, L, XL. Seriously?? And so so so many skinny jeans and pants. I’m huge and miserable, I do not want skinny jeans. Sorry, rant over.
      I guess all that to say, good luck. Try not to get discouraged. And if you find something you like, but it in ALL the colors available. If you only get a few pieces to save money (I made this mistake) by the end of my pregnancy (and even after the baby was born because you will probably still wear maternity for bit) the pieces will start looking worn out and raggedy.

      1. HisGirlFriday*

        I swore by ThredUp when I was pregnant. I could buy gently used (in some cases new-with-tags-on) clothes for huge discounts, and since you wear maternity clothes only for such a short period of time, it’s a great way to not drop a ton of cash on them.

        Congrats on the baby!

    9. OwnedByTheCat*

      My clothes no longer fit me as of a few weeks ago (i’m 21 weeks) so I’m right there with you! I got a few nicer t-shirts and a dress or two off of ebay. The rest I got at Target and Old Navy. I’ve been wearing a lot of leggings and layered dresses or tunic style t-shirts which may be a little too casual for mots days. I also got a pair of jeans which I can dress up with heels and a blazer, etc.

      My wardrobe has gotten MUCH smaller and thus it’s a lot easier to dress myself!

      1. motherofdragons*

        “My wardrobe has gotten MUCH smaller and thus it’s a lot easier to dress myself!”

        Yes!! An unexpected upside of not being able to fit into most things :)

    11. Fact & Fiction*

      Unfortunately, Motherhood Mayetnity plus sizes were a joke for me when I was pregnant 11 years ago. They were nowhere near big enough for me even though I was in the 2X to 3X range st the time. Maybe they’ve improved since then? I had a lot more luck buying things online from Woman Within – some of the stretchy pants for early/mid pregnancy but mostly their long tunic/trapeze tops were perfect for the whole pregnancy. For bottoms during mid to late pregnancy I managed to find enough plus size maternity pants with the panels that worked well with the tops I bought. I focused on finding tips with empire waists that flowed away from the hips/were stretchy enough in general to work with an expanding belly.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Woman Within leans toward tent anyway, so I can see how this would work.

        There used to be a lot more sources from the regular Plus Size stores and online/catalog retailers, but they have almost all eliminated that category.

        1. Fact & Fiction*

          Yeah, I was an emotional mess when I literally had nothing to fit me despite trying “plus size” maternity clothes. I was near despair when I stumbled across Woman Wighin’s website because they carried much larger plus sizes I prayed would work even though not all were officially maternity clothes. At that point I didn’t care how they looked: I just needed ANYthing that fit over my stomach so I could go to work! I cried tears of joy when the tops I bought from the website worked. Bonus was that some even made me feel cute. ;)

    12. Lefty*

      My sister (also wore plus sizes and worked in a business casual environment) had good luck with Target’s maternity line. She swore by their layering tanks. We also found her some fun things through Kohl’s online. Their coupon codes stack, so she got some great deals.

    13. plus size mama*

      Plus size mama here :) I bought a lot of clothes from the facebook buy/sell/trade site called “Maternity Clothes Swap Site”. At least when i was looking, there were lots of business casual clothes. I wore a lot of solid color maternity tshirts/tanks with non maternity cardigans and jackets. I hate leggings as pants generally, but i also wore a lot of thick black maternity leggings with the tshirt/tank combo and knee high boots. The nice thing about maternity tshirts is that many are tunic length! Also, the belly band worked really well to extend the time i could wear my nonmaternity pants.

      2. kbeers0su*

        I’m week 24ish, second pregnancy. Thanks for the hint on facebook groups! I got some stuff on ebay last time around, but it was a winter pregnancy so I need all new stuff this time. Super bummed that a lot of stores have moved all their maternity stuff online!

    14. Gloucesterina*

      Not a suggestion for a retailer, but for an outfit idea that can outlast the pregnancy–I sized up on a couple sundresses from a “regular” store and was able to wear them as dresses during the summer and then into November as tunics with open cardigan, leggings and tall boots. I still wear them 2 years out! Not sure if this would work for everyone’s workplace, though.

      1. Gloucesterina*

        Oh, and I also experienced maternity leggings as a total scam: $40 for leggings that stretched out after 1 wash. I had much better luck with normal leggings and wearing them “under the bump.” Your mileage may vary!

    15. Sled Dog Mama*

      The thing that worked well for me was to buy trousers a size (or, gasp, right at the end two) larger and use one of those belly bands and a safety pin to block the zipper from going down

    16. motherofdragons*

      Following! I can get away with pretty casual clothes at work, so I’ve been living in non-maternity empire waist dresses from Old Navy and the like, and one maternity dress from Target. I also have those Betabrand yoga dress pants and some maternity tops I scored from Zulily on the cheap. Zulily often has maternity wear, and plus size shops you may want to check out.

    17. IvyGirl*

      All of the above is good information. Target and Old Navy are good for basics/layering; Gap has some some decent stuff too (online). H&M has a maternity line as well; Motherhood Outlets are great.

      But also? You’ll be wearing this stuff for a bit of time after the baby comes too. So leggings and ponte pants are good, as are the tank tops and things. But also think about other flowy-type things that can be crossovers – trapeeze dresses, even cute bathing suit coverups (with a tank top and leggings/jeans underneath) works – I still wear those.

      I was a size ten pre-pregnancy and am now a 14 2.75 years post pregnancy. I’m still using pregnancy stuff. :-)

    18. Moonpie*

      I was in the same boat. I snagged pants in basic colors (black, gray, tan) at a good sale at Motherhood Maternity, a few tops there and at Old Navy, mostly in solid colors (especially tanks I could layer under cardigans I already had), an awesomely comfortable basic black wrap dress from GAP maternity that I wore different regular colored consoles under for variety and neckline coverage. Then I rotated and mixed and matched repeatedly. It wasn’t a bunch of variety, but I changed up my jewelry quote a bit and didn’t care how many times my coworkers saw me in the same things. I did have 2 or 3 empire-waist tops that did in a pinch up to about 6 months, and I had black, white, and neutral belly bands (also from Motherhood) that were like the top of pantyhose – opaque and very stretchy. They went over the pants and under the tops to cover me when it wasn’t really a maternity top and to help when say a sheerer pink top went over black pants – a white band under the top covered the black stretchy panel of the pants and made it look better and less distracting through the top.

    19. Parenthetically*

      BeBand or a similar belly band to keep you in your current trousers longer. Plenty of maternity layering basics from Target/Walmart/Old Navy — tanks and nice bright tees and plain stretchy skirts and leggings/tights. Consignment, ThredUp, mama-swap-type pages in your area for pants, coats, jackets, etc., or put out an APB in your friend circle. Like Murphy said, most maternity is pretty gently used, so I ended up buying most of mine secondhand. Also, I have several non-maternity stretch jersey dresses (mostly Old Navy and Target) I can STILL get into easily at 32 weeks, and with a belt worn high and a structured jacket or cardigan those babies are 100% work-appropriate. That’s been most helpful for me, to figure out what non-maternity basics I can use to stretch my small maternity wardrobe!

    21. plus size mama*

      One thing that i found is that i really preferred maternity tops to trying to make plus sized non maternity tops that fit work for me. I felt like going up a size in plus sized non maternity tops made me look like i just gained weight. I wanted to look pregnant. It was a weird change to make, as i’ve spent essentially my entire adult life trying to minimize my size. I felt better, and more put together, wearing more fitted items while i was pregnant, and items that actually emphasized my belly (such as tops that tied under my bust).

    22. Kaz*

      Motherhood Maternity sometimes has sales, but their plus size selection is limited. I have been wearing maternity yoga pants from Walmart with regular tops up until about week 26, and Old Navy has some good stuff (though I end up returning a lot of it.) If you want something specific that’s not overly expensive, Yours Clothing has reasonably priced basics in their Bump It Up line.

    23. cookie monster*

      I used Ebay and bought in lots from people who were the same size as me. I didn’t want to spend a ton of $$ because I was only planning on having 1 child and the clothes were only going to get 4-5 months of wear. I got really nice stuff-slacks, button downs, dresses all white colar appropriate. I probably spent about $150-$200 total

    24. New Bee*

      Some Ross stores have maternity sections, and the quality isn’t bad for clothes you’ll wear a few months.

    25. sara*

      Just chiming in to say thanks for this question! I’m 13 weeks and just starting to notice my pants getting a little tight. Bookmaking this for later reference!

    26. Fellow Plus Size Mama-to-Be*

      I JUST went through this shopping hell. Luckily, I’m fully stocked up now, so I don’t have to deal with it anymore.

      Anyway, I found this blog article very helpful: http://www.fatgirlflow.com/plus-size-maternity-clothes/

      I’ve been able to get away with buying clothes from a combination of the places listed in there. While they’re not that cheap, my favorite maternity clothes have been from Motherhood Maternity and, since your dress code is business casual, you can definitely wear a lot of their items to work. Also, Old Navy plus size maternity pants only go up to an 18, which doesn’t work for me, but their shirts go up to XXL, which is the equivalent of a 20, so I’ve been able to supplement my wardrobe with less expensive shirts from there.

      Finally, while not technically maternity, I’ve found that the leggings and dresses from LulaRoe have still worked well for me even during pregnancy.

      1. PLORP*

        I would like to add my vote to buying layering options. With my 2 working pregnancies, I had 2 black and one brown pairs of slacks (i found nipples at my local resale store and they are amazing), some thickish tanks and tshirtish and a couple cardigans, and that is what I wore to work. It doesn’t get too cold where I live, so the layers were fine. With my third pregnancy, I was staying home and wore very few actual maternity clothes and it was hot. I did maxi skirts worn over the bump and leggings worn under with various tops with the tanks I had from previous pregnancies. I probably felt cuter through my first two pregnancies – if I ever go at it again, I will invest in maternity clothes again to alleviate that frumpy feeling.

    27. GoodnesSmee*

      Seconding Pink Blush for cute plus size maternity stuff! I got an adorable dress from there for my baby shower and they have lots of cute things that would work for an office as well. The struggles of dressing as a plus size lady are even more perilous when shopping for maternity wear, but I think the options out there are getting better overall!

      1. Specialk9*

        And Gap – which I can’t wear regularly – has amazing business black pants (trousers) in extended sizes (tall, plus, etc), with a discreet black belly band* that is so comfy.

        I still wear them – I like the modesty of not having my belly show if I reach up, and I used to wear belly bands and layered tanks, pre-baby, so this is more convenient. I also still have belly soreness, 2 years out, from a rough C-section, so the soft belly band doesn’t cut into my belly but still keeps the pants up.

        *I hate the creepy “flesh” colored bands, they look medical not to mention flesh comes in lotsa shades.

  4. Doubting Thomas*

    I just started a new job last week, and I have some serious regrets — not just me missing my old job, but there’s some big differences between the job description and what the offer letter said, and the actual benefits and job duties now that I’m here.

    First is the vacation policy: during the offer stage I was told that you get 3 weeks of paid vacation time, but on my first day I found out that there’s no vacation time at all my first year.

    Second big thing is there’s unpaid travel and overtime. I’m coming from a startup so I made sure to ask about work life balance at this company. The interviewers swore up and down that it’s a very evenly paced 9-5 environment. But on day 2 my boss told me he’d be getting me a company cell phone, for use on on-sites where I’m supposed to supervise field service technicians troubleshoot and install hardware. The on-sites are at night and we don’t get paid overtime for them. This is totally outside my skill set (I am a front end web developer) and no one ever mentioned it to me before now. Not in the job description either.

    There’s a few other small things that point to a larger trend (HR forgot to schedule me for orientation, gave my department the wrong start date, and told me to report to the wrong manager on day 1). At this point I’m half expecting my first pay stub to have a different salary than the one I accepted.

    I feel like my trust has been taken advantage of here already and I’m less than a month in. So what do I do? I see three options:

    – Call up my old company and see if I can rejoin. They probably would say yes, but I left for a reason and leaving again shortly would destroy my reputation with everyone there. Obviously I’d rather avoid that. And I’m not sure how long to wait or how to phrase it.
    – Quit and job search full time. I stayed for a decent time at each of my previous jobs, so I think I can avoid the job hopper stigma if I give a level-headed explanation of what happened. Adapting Alison’s advice from here sounds good: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/11/my-new-company-wont-honor-the-extra-week-of-vacation-i-negotiated.html
    – Stay here but phone it in and keep looking until I find something/get let go. This keeps money coming in but it seems like a really bad idea.

    I’m split between the first two. I’m also fairly young (~5 years work experience), so I would really appreciate any advice. Thanks!

    1. CAA*

      Can you go back to the interviewers you met with and discuss some of the disconnect with them (not the vacation, but the hours and content of the job)? If you were told to report to a different manager, is this even the person you interviewed with? It almost sounds like the job they hired you to fill evaporated in some kind of restructuring and they put you into the opening they had.

      If you can, stay there and do the best job you possibly can (i.e. don’t “phone it in”) while continuing to look for something else. Don’t go back to your previous company if you’re just going to leave again, and only quit without a job if you really have to.

      1. k.k*

        All of this yes yes. See if they can make things right before giving up. If they can’t, then let them keep paying you while you look for something else. The exception would be if they are asking really unreasonable things from you and it’s a really toxic workplace, or if you have a huge amount of savings.

        1. Doubting Thomas*

          I have a decent amount of savings, and I’m in a big city with a lot of tech jobs.

          Re: vacation, I talked to HR. They said they’d forward me some documents that explained the PTO policy, and then sent me the list of holidays and haven’t responded again. They’re definitely not on the up and up, but my gut says to take the high road.

            1. Cinnamonroll*

              Vacation is part of your compensation. You have every right to have it addressed, same as you would if they didn’t pay you the salary you agreeded on.

          2. Seattle Web Dev*

            I’m also a web dev in a big city with a lot of tech jobs. I got super burned by my last company (also a start-up, also my first full-time job as a web dev), and ended up in a job with nearly double the pay that I LOVE and look forward to every day within a week and a half. If you have the savings and think you’ll have job options, I’d say quit and leave this job off your resume (easy to explain this situation – nobody would blame you for it!) or stay and job search as possible on your own time/via “doctor’s appts” until you get a new offer or two. If you’re in tech and have options then you definitely have better options than this.

            1. Doubting Thomas*

              They don’t give paid sick time for the first few months. But I’ll still do that — Google, Facebook, and a couple of the big banks have, so. I also have connections at those companies: they have high employee satisfaction because they don’t pull stuff like this. And there’s always smaller or medium sized companies which treat their employees well.

              I’ve had probationary periods before, but usually you accrued PTO and sick days during them, you just couldn’t use them during the first 60/90 days. I’m still against that, but it’s a far better and far more reasonable policy than no vacation first year. We’re not exactly in a 2,000 person town here.

              Unfortunately, with “HR is a black box,” I don’t think I have too much leverage here. It’s possible I would, but I doubt it. I’m not good at hardball negotiation either, so I’d end up saying something like “if we can’t fix this by tomorrow, I can walk down the street and get my old job back, or I can walk up the street and interview at Google”, and look really bad.

          3. neverjaunty*

            What do you mean by “take the high road”? Standing up for yourself politely is not the “low road”.

            These people are at best incompetent – that the rest of the company says HR is a ‘black box’ is completely not normal in any way.

            1. Doubting Thomas*

              I can be kind of avoidant, like a typical computer guy. I don’t want to make enemies.

              But here if it’s between getting someone mad at me, or getting exploited because I was lied to, I’ll be fine with having them as enemies.

              1. Specialk9*

                That’s NOT OK. They don’t get to change terms of employment from what they offered and you agreed to. I’d politely email your managers and HR together. “Hi, there seems to be a problem with my contractually agreed-upon benefits, how do I get this fixed so my benefits match the offer I accepted?”

                I’d also research your local laws, and consider getting an official letter from a lawyer.

    2. Paige Turner*

      They did whaaaaaaat? Number three. Do your best while you can, but it sounds like this company is shady and flat-out lied to you. You shouldn’t have to lose your income immediately on account of their sketchy practices. Leave the new job off your resume and start applying for other jobs. Any reason why you feel like option number three is a bad idea?

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        It’s just a gut feeling. I’d also like to be able to honestly say that I’ve never been fired. Since I’m not going to stand up and shout “THEY LIED TO ME!!!” in the middle of the office, I feel like it’d look way worse to sit in the office applying for jobs for 40 hours a week.

        I have plenty of savings and then some brokerage (not retirement!!!) accounts I can use to keep myself afloat while hunting full-time.

        1. Natalie*

          This might be a long shot, but in my state you can get unemployment if you quit an “unsuitable” new job within 30 days. If you’re leaning towards #2, that might be worth looking into.

        2. CAA*

          You cannot sit in the office applying for jobs for 40 hours a week. If you stay there, then give them the decent effort that they are paying you for and apply for jobs when you’re not working. It’s just the moral and ethical thing to do. If you aren’t able to make yourself at least try to do the work they want from you, then yes, you should probably quit.

          1. Doubting Thomas*

            I am legitimately split on this.

            HR hasn’t picked up the phone to confirm. My boss’ response was basically “HR is in charge of all of this, and they’re kind of a black box to us.”

            I believe that I should take the high road, but I feel really burned by this.

            1. LaLaLand*

              Why why why do companies do this?
              Yes, I would definitely go back and schedule a meeting with both HR and the hiring manager to go over what’s changed and is different from what you expected.

            2. Jadelyn*

              HR should never be a “black box”, that’s a huge red flag of a dysfunctional company and culture. Good lord.

              I vote for job searching immediately, stay until you get something better, then hightail it on out of there and make it clear that you’re leaving because they pulled a complete bait-and-switch on you. Also go spill your story on Glassdoor once you’ve left.

        3. Triceratops*

          I mean, doing #3 doesn’t mean you’re going to get fired? Hopefully the turnout would be that you get a new job, resign this one, and leave it off your resume going forward. Still no firings.

          You can’t use your work time to job search. THAT might get you fired. Since you don’t get any vacation the first year, I guess you’ll have to have “doctor’s appointments” for interviews, but other than that…do it on your own time only.

          1. Doubting Thomas*

            No sick time for the first 90 days.

            From what I understand, this is one of those old, long-running companies that’s begun cutting down on employee benefits since the last recession. So you have a few “lifers” who are basically immune to firing because of their seniority, but for new people it’s nowhere near as good of a place to work. Not saying that everyone who’s stayed at a company for a long time does this, but I’ve seen people like that at every company I’ve worked at.

            I would say more but that’d probably open me/them up to internet detectiving.

        4. Stranger than fiction*

          Yeah they blatantly bait and switched you dude. I’m so sorry, that sucks.

      2. Artemesia*

        The field service outside your skill set at night? Wow! I’d do #3 and find something new unless you can commit to the old place for a couple of years which it looks like you don’t want to. ‘The job was supposed to be front end development and ended up requiring unpaid night technical service support in the field which is really outside my skill set.’ seems like a pretty good ‘excuse’ for job hunting so soon.

        1. Natasha*

          I was most surprised by this part, too. Even if you do coincidentally know a lot about hardware, there’s no overlap with web dev, so it’s a weird combination of duties.

        2. Nancie*

          It sounds to me like she’ll be supervising the techs who will be doing the actual hardware work. Which just sounds odd to me — what sort of hardware people need constant supervision? On-site supervision for anyone past the trainee/intern stage is something that their real manager or supervisor should literally be able to phone in.

    3. Another person*

      Oof that is rotten luck but it does happen. I wouldn’t go back to your old job if you’re just going to leave again but I don’t think you need to quit right away either. I’d stay and job search and work on industry certifications and try to either get out quickly or see if the job becomes more like what you were expecting after another month. But it does sound like you got bait and switched and if you’re not into working for free with no vacation (I know I’m not), any reasonable employer would understand if you bailed, especially since you have longer stays before this.

    4. Courtney W*

      I’m also pretty young, but I once did the first thing on your list here and ended up really regretting it. As you said, there’s a reason you left your old job. I didn’t want to tank my reputation there, so I ended up staying for some time and it just felt like such a waste. So I would discourage you from doing that.

      Is it feasible to stay at the new job NOT just phoning it in while you job search? And I do agree with CAA that it’s worth discussing with the interviewer.

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        There was a reason, but even despite the hours, they were understanding. I was respected by my team, they were genuinely sad to see me go, and if I needed a mental health day or to help my parents (they’re elderly and I help take care of them) the response was “health and family are more important. Take the time, you don’t have to even put in for PTO.”

        Impression here so far is “here’s policy, we don’t write it all down. Take it or leave it.”

        I’m genuinely torn here.

        1. RT*

          Could you potentially do some contract work for your old company? A month of contracted dev work should float you until you find a new job.

          1. Doubting Thomas*

            It’s a possibility. I left on very good terms so there’s an open door there for me.

            The worst-case scenario would be if I can’t find something in a few months, I would call them up.

    5. mugsy83*

      Oof. I had a similar situation a few years ago. Left a toxic job and landed in another not good situation, which took me a couple of months to really uncover that the new place was dysfunctional and financially circling the drain. I ended up just continuing my job search. My profiles were still active on job searching sites and I was honest when I was contacted by prospective new employers. I said something along the lines of old company was laying people off, so I took this new “temp” position to keep a steady salary, which was true. I really did look at the new job as a temp job – meaning, I did what needed to be done, I gave a real effort while I was there to do the best I could with what was asked of me, and at night and on lunch breaks, I was sending out resumes and taking phone interviews. I don’t think you have to choose between quitting and “phoning it in,” you can do both.

    6. skunklet*

      I’m still stuck on the ‘unpaid’ portion (in addition to everything else). How is this even LEGAL?

      1. Jesca*

        I think this is the most telling of the whole situation. They are taking advantage (it sounds like of exempt employment. I believe a lot of places that would require this extra work would offer flex scheduling or would flat out have an overtime policy. They are clearly unwilling to do this. That is why I think it was a complete bait and switch. Get someone in with some skills, and then force them to do this awful job. I actually HAD a manager do this before to a new hire! It was horrible.

      2. Doubting Thomas*

        I’m considered an exempt employee at this job. So they don’t pay OT. I think that fits the definition because I’m doing skilled work and also supervising someone else (the field techs).

        And what’s right, decent, or ethical to do is separate from what’s legal. Sad but true. Though this is still dumb because it’s not like software developers don’t have options. Facebook and a couple of big banks have offices in my city and I’ve talked to them in the past.

        IANAL but I think I’m right. Famous last words.

        1. Rocketship*

          Speaking from close to 20 years in the workforce, if you’re already getting this bad a vibe from the company this early on….. well, it’s not going to get better. Straight up. They have already shown you that they are willing to lie to you, stonewall you, misdirect and take advantage of you. You can pretty much expect that none of this is going to change.

          Personally, if you can afford it, I strongly recommend option #2 – quit now and job search full time. Leave this off your resume – especially if you’ve only been there a week or two, it’s basically like it never happened. If you are for some reason asked about the gap (not likely), you can say something along the lines of “I worked briefly for Evil Bees, Inc., but the job duties turned out to be very different from the description I was given, and it wasn’t as good a fit for me as I had hoped.” I think most people have had a similar experience and will be empathetic.

          You’re right that it’s not exactly the high road to phone it in to collect the paycheck while you job search (much as they seem to richly deserve it and as tempting as that would be). Beyond that, however, is the fact that the longer you stay in this clearly dysfunctional and abusive environment, the more likely it is to warp your view of a normal working environment. Check out this thread for examples: https://www.askamanager.org/2014/11/are-you-haunted-by-your-last-bad-job.html

          Do yourself a favor and drop them like a selfish lover. They don’t deserve any more of your time, and you don’t deserve to get jerked around by them any more than you already have.

          1. Specialk9*

            I don’t agree that’s it’s dishonest of them to phone it in and job search. Assuming they have savings, or that they should have to deplete emergency savings because an employer actively deceived them isn’t on.

            The company knowingly lied to you. Feel free to stay and job search and leave as soon as you can. You owe them nothing, though as a decent person you should not do anything outright wrong (eg deleting their files). Once you have a new job, post on Glassdoor to give a heads up.

        2. plain_jane*

          Have you spoken with your boss about having those evening hours back as flex time?

      3. Jadelyn*

        If they’re exempt, it’s perfectly legal. That’s the whole point of having some employees classified as exempt.

        Mind you, that’s assuming they have in fact classified DT as exempt, and that it’s legit. And we don’t know either of those things.

        1. nonegiven*

          My son is a back end developer and his jobs after college have all been exempt. One job did include an on call week every few weeks but it involved ssh into the server and never had to leave his house for it. If someone needed to physically go to the data center and physically flip a switch, they had other people for that.

          DT doesn’t sound like he even has the skills for the field work. I keep wondering, if he was sent to the wrong manager, did they hire someone else who has his original job and there was a mix up as to who was hired for what? I’d call a meeting with HR and the hiring manager and if the job doesn’t make at least a 90° turn, I’d walk right then and tell them you expect your last check to be deposited by the eob tomorrow.

          2. Doubting Thomas*

            Yeah, that’s right. I’m exempt, and this is out of my skill set. I think I’m very good at what I do, but I make sure to specifically outline what it is that I do, so I end up in places where I’m doing it and I’m happy doing it.

            And I have worked outside regular office hours before … by using ssh or one of those special tokens to log into a server from home, or from a coffee shop or something.

            Regarding being sent to the wrong job: No, it’s the right one. HR just set up the reporting lines wrong. When they reached out for an interview they called me while I was in the office, I said “I’m in work right now, a little busy, can you email me?”, and they said “we don’t do this by email.” They also said they don’t share the PTO accural docs. So this is a company where HR is the supreme authority.

            Regarding remote work: It was sprung on me by surprise. I made sure to ask about work-life balance, and this did not come up. They literally said “no, no, no! This is a 9-5 office job.” Meanwhile, the guy who sits next to me got a call on Thursday telling him he needed to be at an on-site 8:30 P.M. Friday.

    7. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Ok, I’m not Alison, but I wonder if you can do the following:

      1) Talk to your boss about the disconnect. Something along the lines of, “Boss, I know we talked about this previously, but now that I’ve had a bit to process I wanted to talk to you. When I was hired for this job I was told X, Y, and Z (duty tasks, not vacation and pay stuff). In talking to you you mentioned H and L, which is really outside of my skillset. I am and want to be a team player, but this isn’t something I can cover (I had “feel comfortable covering” here, but that may prompt a discussion about how amazing you are and how you’ve got it). How do we resolve this and make sure the site technicians have the proper contact information?”

      2) Email HR on the payroll stuff “There are some discrepancies between what I was told and what I am hearing and seeing in my paperwork. <> Obviously, I negotiated in good faith with these benefits in mind. What is the procedure for fixing these issues?” If you have the stuff in writing, even more fantastic. You said you let the boss know about the issues so I wouldn’t loop them in on the newest email yet.

      Speaking as someone who has had some pretty extensive “free” overtime–get your money now. You’ll end up putting the hours in anyway and definitely resent it more.

      If none of that works I vote for option 4–only work your 40 hour week and search the rest of the time. I would try my damnedest to get out of that phone on-call thing because it really seems like it doesn’t fit your current job description and wasn’t part of the discussion. If you have a conflict, I might state that, too, and worst-case get a day that works best for you (the “unavoidable personal conflict”, not actual task–no need to bring up points of discussion). Work the 8 hours a day and get out.

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        ah, caused some problems with my greater than and less than symbols. That part should say “examples here”.

      2. Doubting Thomas*

        It wasn’t. I came from a startup where I was working 10-11 hours a day. I’m fine with that grind, if I’m being paid accordingly. So I asked everyone who interviewed me and they all said “no, this is 9-5.”

        They seemed on the level with the pay (though I wouldn’t be surprised if that changed soon though), so I accepted.

        HR does not do email. This is strange to me, because the first job I had was at a financial institution with a very long operational history, and there everything was very clearly documented, and available to anyone on company intranet. Same at the startup.

        I will talk to my boss on Wednesday when he gets back. I help take care of my elderly parents, so there are times where I will be completely unavailable — and I have enough savings to stay afloat for a year or so, so if it’s either “work overnight or lose your job,” I’m walking. All my previous jobs respected that, but this place springing the overnight shifts on me makes me think it will be “do this or you’re fired.”

        1. Artemesia*

          I’d have a lot more obligation to help elderly parents and be a lot less available especially since you are willing to quit if necessary. I cannot do this is stronger than I don’t want to do this.

          1. Doubting Thomas*

            Indeed. The dishonesty about this is what really grinds my gears. The startup I worked at was honest about how much they wanted us to work. And if I said I couldn’t do something because I had family obligations, the response was “that’s fine, family is more important, you can forget I asked.”

            Only time will tell but I get the feeling that this place will be less compassionate since they waited until after I started to drop it on me.

    8. CityMouse*

      I can’t tell you whether to quit because that depends on your financial situation but I would keep job searching. I just think the huge discrepancies and lack of addressing them is red flags all around. I am so very sorry.

    9. Beezus*

      Did they spell out the PTO in your offer letter? As others have mentioned, it’s part of your compensation, so don’t let HR ice you out with ignoring you. IDK what state you’re in, but many ALSO consider it legally accrued wages that must be paid out when you leave. Can you go talk to HR in person? It’s hard to ignore someone standing in front of you.

    10. Blueberry*

      I’m wondering about the not getting paid overtime. That’s not legal except in a very small set of circumstances and jobs. I would seek advice from the employment commission for that.

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        As a programmer, I’ve always been exempt from OT pay, except for my very first job. There I’m pretty sure everyone who was below director level got overtime; the logic was “we don’t want to make you work late, so if you do, we want you to be compensated for it.”

        That is the one part of this which seems totally above board. Legal but not ethical, you know?

  5. want to be respectful*

    Hi All
    20+ years ago when I was in college, I interned for a local, but very large financial company. I worked on a small team of 6 including my manager Jim. The company only allowed me to work a strict 20 hours a week. During college after my first year they made the internship a part time job for me working 31 flexable hours a week – awesome for a college kid.

    While I was the youngest by many years on the team, I became everyone’s little sister. We had a cordial- professional- friendly- acquaintance relationship but because of the late nights and working off hours, sometimes conversation became more friendly – have you seen that movie? catch the game last night? did you have a good time on your date? While it was a juggle to balance work and school I tried to do whatever I could to help the team. I grabbed coffees on my way into work, made cookies on the weekend. They really appreciated it. Jim loved my cookies.

    To this day I consider that team of 6 to have positively molded my outlook on my professional life. I am originally from and still live within commuting distance to NYC. Jim was fascinated as to why I would leave a big city for a small out of state college. He and the team constantly wanted to hear stories about life in NYC. I explained that I wanted to try something different during college. I had the same fascination about the smaller town where my college was.

    Anyway time moved on, I graduated, some of the team is still there. I sadly have lost touch, however I recently came across Jim and team’s profiles on Facebook. Apparently some of the team still works the company. I would like to reach out with a note letting them know how much I appreciated their insight and mentoring.

    Is it inappropriate when I write to Jim and team to include a batch of cookies and a recent photo of my family in NYC near a tourist attraction they always asked about? I want to keep the professional lines, hence not using Facebook. I think sending a handwritten note would be appropriate (Jim hated email). I really just want to acknowledge how they influenced me.

    I can justify the cookies as it was something they always mentioned in Christmas cards. I wonder if sending a photo near too much? In the few years that we did keep in touch they always asked if I met someone. In addition whenever they heard about something in NYC they always asked if I saw/ attended the event. However I’m sure after 20+ years and about 17 years of no contact, in their minds I’m just another long forgotten intern. I was hoping a photo would jog their memory. This sounds so silly after typing it all out. Any opinions or managers in this position that could offer insight?

    1. ZSD*

      I think what you’re suggesting sounds lovely. In the note, remind them of when it was that you worked together, and then say what you have planned about what a positive influence they’ve been. I think they’ll be moved.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I think that’s lovely! We too often lose touch with people that impacted us. I don’t think you’d be crossing any lines at all.

    3. Jen RO*

      I would find that very touching if I were in Jim’s shoes. I’ve only been out of college for 10 years, so I don’t know how much I’ll remember in another 10, but it sounds like you had a close relationship and (especially with the photo) you would be fondly remembered. I say go for it!

    4. Havel*

      That’s not weird at all. That sounds really nice!

      One of my big regrets is not keeping in touch with people from my old job — because they were friends, not (well not just) because they might be useful. I know a couple of them who were a few years older saw me as a younger brother and mentee type figure. Don’t repeat mistakes like that!

    5. Paige Turner*

      I agree that this would be really nice! I’m not a manager but I think anyone would appreciate this.

    6. Emmie*

      This sounds lovely and thoughtful! I second the reminder about your timeframe. It sounds like you were a memorable intern.

    8. KT*

      I think this is a lovely idea. Not inappropriate at all! I’d love to hear about their response once they receive the package.

      Super thoughtful.

    9. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      From someone who has worked at a company a long time and has seen some younger interns/personnel move on from us: We really like getting the occasional note/photo about where they’re at in life and if they mention something about how we helped them grow, it triples the warm fuzzies. It’s really nice to hear that you were a positive influence in someone’s life, however large or small.

    10. KatiePie*

      A year ago I decided email my boss from my office job in college. I didn’t know her email address, but I knew the domain, so I sent it to various iterations of her name, and one got through!
      I told her how impactful working there had been for me, that I had aspirations of reaching the position she’d been in when I worked for her and that she was a large reason why, and that I had my own interns now that I’m trying to impart wisdom and knowledge to. She was thrilled to hear from me and we emailed back and forth a few times. We also discussed meeting up if I’m ever in her city, but we haven’t managed that yet.
      I definitely recommend it! Cookies and photo are a nice added touch.

    11. Samata*

      Just echoing what everyone else has said! I think this is great – I used to work in college admissions and every once in awhile I still hear from a student I recruited back in the early 2000s and I always enjoy seeing where they ended up, even if that’s the first I have thought of them in 15 years.

  6. ZSD*

    How do I know how picky to be when job-searching in my mid-30s? My two-year contract position is about to end, and of course I’m looking for new jobs. I’d thought that this contract would really start my career in my current field, but…I’m not having much luck getting that next job in this field. Do I need to broaden my search to include any jobs I think I can do, the way I did in my twenties? How long should I hold out?
    Relevant information: I think but am not certain that I’ll be approved for unemployment, and my spouse has a job that pays enough to cover our rent and groceries, though not much else. We do have some savings.
    When does it become better to take kind of any interesting job rather than holding out for a job in the field I want to stay in?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You say your contract is about to end. How soon is it about to end? If it ends in three months, I’d probably still apply for jobs in that particular field only. If it ends in three weeks, I’d probably be applying for anything I think I can do.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’d apply for anything you can do, then. Two weeks isn’t much time. I wish you the best!

        2. want to be respectful*

          Hi ZSD

          First thanks for the encouragement with my inquiry above!

          As for your own question… Since you are short on time (2 weks!), I would take whatever comes along…. for now Since you are doing contract work, can you set an end date for your next assignment? 6 months? 1 year? Use that time frame to get set up for your following assignment whatever that may be. Use the time to research different fields, network some more. Assuming your next assignment (where you can negociate an end date) will be in an area you already work in based on your experience, you will already know the ropes/ ins and outs. That should free up some personal time for planning the next step in your career. Good luck! Keep us posted

    2. Christy*

      Depends on the field. But why not take an interesting job in another field? That sounds like a great opportunity!

      1. ZSD*

        Thanks. My current field is public policy advocacy. And to be clear, I’m talking about hypothetical interesting jobs in other fields, not a specific one I actually have received an offer for!

    3. over educated*

      Are you me…? (Except I’m probably not eligible for unemployment.)

      Like Christy, I think it depends on how much time is left on your contract and how specialized you are. Hiring timelines are long (3-6+ months) and openings are few and far between in my area, so with 14 months to go on mine, I’m focusing more on exploring options in other fields and informational interviewing; at 12 months out I’ll be more active in applying for jobs in the field; and at 6 months out I’ll be just trying for anything I can get.

    4. Lizard*

      2 weeks is not much time to find a new job–frankly you should have been looking months ago. I think its dangerous to take unemployment when you could have prevented this–don’t some states have lifetime limits on unemployment? Save it for when you really need it (not to mention the ethics around taking unemployment just because you haven’t found a dream job to apply to). I think that in your mid-30s, you should start focusing in on career opportunities BUT I would also avoid gaps in employment that can make it tougher to get a job in the future.

      1. ZSD*

        Well, obviously I did start looking months ago. I’ve had four phone interviews since last October, but that’s it, and I don’t appreciate you saying “I could have prevented this.” I’ve been applying for jobs for over six months now. How else would I have been able to say that I haven’t been having much luck? If I’d just started looking now, I wouldn’t know that yet.
        But I didn’t know there were lifetime limits on unemployment. That’s helpful to know.

        1. nonegiven*

          I’d get the unemployment and keep looking. Take the best situation you can find within a defined amount of time you are comfortable with.

        2. sumthing*

          ZSD, coming to this very late, but I have never heard of a “lifetime” cap on the number of times you can apply for unemployment benefits or the lifetime amount. It’s certainly not the case in California. There are limits as to how long you can collect benefits after losing employment and finding the next job. Many college lecturers here in California qualify for unemployment during the summer because even with a signed appointment letter, future employment can still be canceled at any time before classes start. That can add up to a lot of unemployment. It’s similar for people in the entertainment industry.

          There’s nothing unethical in collecting unemployment when you qualify. You’d have to contact your state unemployment division to see whether your current job qualifies

        1. Specialk9*

          It would have made me prickly too. The “it’s your own fault you irresponsible person” thing was pretty rude, especially paired with the assumption you haven’t been job searching.

  7. Christy*

    My manager is struggling. He’s been a manager for a while, but he’s seen as a micromanager. (He is, but he doesn’t want to be? He knows he needs to work on it but still struggles.) Is there anything I can do to help and support him? I’m his subordinate, so I’m not in a position to coach him, I think, but I’d like to help him develop. I’d appreciate any thoughts y’all have.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Does he ever confide his struggles as a manager to you? Or is this all stuff you’re observing from afar? If it’s the former, I don’t think it’s out of line to give some advice. If it’s the latter, maybe there are ways you can coach his subordinates to manage up?

      1. Christy*

        I am his subordinate, so I would love advice on how to manage up in this situation! He’s been open with all of us about the perception of micromanaging but nothing specific to me personally.

          1. Christy*

            For what it’s worth, I don’t hate the micromanagement. But my coworkers do, and it’s causing my manager to struggle at being their manager, if that makes sense. Is there anything I can do to help him in this situation, rather than myself? I’m pretty ok. Mildly frustrated at best/worst.

        2. Courtney W*

          When you say he’s been open about the perception of micromanaging, the word perception gives me pause. Does he believe that he’s not actually micromanaging and is wrongly being perceived that way? If so, that’s going to make things a lot more difficult.

        3. Specialk9*

          Managing up is such an important skill!

          I’d work on negotiation and verbally creating boundaries, while making sure that you speak with warmth and (ideally) admiration to and about this person. (People pick up on feelings so quickly.) There are a lot of people skills and empathy in managing up – see them as a person and imagine their feelings and worries, and approach them with consideration.

          So for negotiation, make agreements with the manager about what they need to be comfortable, and what area you can take leadership/ ownership of. Ask for advice that’s actually negotiation: “I’m trying to transition from working on tasks by direction to self managing my workload, so that I could take on more responsibility. I see that’s a skill you are good at, and I’m wondering how to go about that, and if you’d be willing to work with me on this.”

          If it doesn’t exist, create a status board (Excel file in a shared folder, or shared business Google Doc, or whatever your company uses) and keep it up to date. Offer a weekly status check -in to review what you’re working on, and prep for those. Make a status report or update the tracker. Basically be so on the ball that this manager may twitch and quiver as a habit, but will be able to relax a bit about you in particular.

          Then if they keep asking for reviews or status updates or such, bring their attention back to the agreed upon structure. “We’ve been doing a weekly check-in, is this something that I can address then or is it urgent now?” Or “Name, would you be comfortable letting me take this part on, and have you do the final edit? You know I’m trying to grow my ability to work with less supervision, and I generally do good work.”

    2. Fabulous*

      I think how you’re able to help him depends on the way(s) in which he micromanages.

      For an old micromanager boss I worked for, we had daily meetings to give updates on every outstanding item on his master to-to list, among a host of other things. Meeting daily helped him to cross things off in his head and stop hounding people about the little things because he knew they were being worked on.

      1. Dead Quote Olympics*

        I think this is really good advice. Is he concerned about how things are getting done? Or THAT they are getting done? We have a series of linked project management spreadsheets for major projects (Microsoft Project is really overkill for the size of our org) that anyone in the org can look at to see what tasks are complete, what’s active, etc. and we can add tasks, decisions, and meetings ourselves and assign them, add notes, etc. Something like that might satisfy a “I worry that this is getting done’ micromanager.

        An “I worry that you are doing it in the exact way I want it done” micromanager is much tougher to wean off the micromanaging. That seems more like a coaching/managing up situation where repeated “I’ve got this, thanks” with a follow up of “see, it turned out fine” seems necessary (but probably not sufficient).

    3. Another person*

      I generally try letting micromanagers know “I’ve got this, thanks for checking in and I’ll be sure to let you know if I need something” and “I’ll give you a status update on X at (Y time)”. Well meaning micromanagers tend to just like reassurance all things are being covered. The bad kind, nothing is ever good enough and I try to get away from those when it becomes clear they will never trust me to do my job without them standing over me every step of the way.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I’ve seen this as well. It doesn’t actually stop the micromanaging completely, but at least well-intentioned but misguided micromanagement does subside slightly if people are proactive about progress reports.

    4. London Engineer*

      You could send him a link to Ask a manager…

      Seriously though I think there have been some posts on avoiding micromanaging, they might be worth digging out.

    6. Cap Hiller*

      The only question I’ll raise is do you feel confident that others on your team don’t need the micromanaging? With the team I’m managing now, I realize I’m a different manager with each person. My fabulous report, she keeps me updated AND I trust her judgment most of the time, so it works well. Another report thinks she’s a great employee but isn’t but then doesn’t understand why she needs to be managed. In fairness, I don’t think I’m micro-managing, but she does. For example, there was a change in schedules and I used an email to remind when a weekly project update was due. Her submissions are late every single week but she replied snarkily to my reminder

      All to say that other employees often don’t know the full story of an employee’s work relationship with a shared manager and you jut want to be mindful of that

      1. Specialk9*

        It’s a good point! Sometimes our self perceptions are way off the mark! Your employee doesn’t see that she’s actually not doing what she should, and likely thinks you’re a jerk manager.

    7. Nic*

      There’s a really good book my management team is reading right now that focuses a lot on going from leader-follower to leader-leader, and talks about what is needed to not feel like you have to micromanage. It’s called Turm This Ship Around and is by L. David Marquet. ISBN -10: 1591846404 ISBN-13: 978-1591846406

      It’s fantastic. Maybe if you’re seen reading it you can suggest it?

  8. FDCA In Canada*

    I had an interview Monday, which went fantastic. I had a second-round phone interview on Tuesday, which also went very well. My interviewer assured me she wanted to make a decision by Thursday, but yesterday came and went with no phone call, and now I’m on vacation, so I have no idea what to expect. I’m not too terribly worried because I know this all takes longer than people want it to, but…the interview went SO well! Now I’ll be nervous for a while.

    2. Artemesia*

      Hope it goes well but it is always prudent to assume it is a ‘no’ and carry on. Soooo many great interviews come to nothing — sometimes they found someone better even though you are great and sometimes they promoted their worst employee and sometimes they hired their boss’s son in law.

    3. Chinook*

      From your user name, I am going to assume you are in Canada. Let’s face it – everyone is on long weekend mode for the big holiday tomorrow and I would be surprised if she called you today. My advice is to forget about it until Tuesday. Some places are giving Friday as the stat and others the Monday and I any reasonable person would know that a no answer to a all could easily mean you are out camping or celebrating.

      So, sit back, pop a cold one, enjoy the fireworks and concerts and forget about it until next week. 150 years of Confederation only happens once.

      1. Chinook*

        Also, depending on the industry or location, remember that they may also be starting “summer time,” which means approvals take longer as various people go on vacation over the next two months. AAM’s advice still stands – forget about it until they contact you as there is nothing else you can do.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      I think this is like many things in life like when a friend says “I’ll call you next week” and they may have every intention to do so right in the moment, but then life happens.
      Only difference here is business happens.
      There’s also people that just give an arbitrary time or day in the moment, but really have no idea when or even if they’ll call you, and just say these things not realizing the other party is taking you at your word.

  9. Nutella Jar*

    My question is similar to this letter (https://www.askamanager.org/2013/08/is-it-okay-to-leave-my-parents-dysfunctional-business-and-never-look-back.html), but I’m not sure if Alison’s advice would apply in my situation.

    I currently work at my father’s company that is really dysfunctional. It’s my first job post college. Salaries are really low, and I’m not getting paid the market value of my position. I get no benefits and have to beg for my paid-vacation time. I’ve even gotten in trouble for using sick time when I was really sick. Money is often misused and used unethically. There’s a lot of debt. It’s so bad that the IRS would probably have a hay day if they saw our financials.

    Even before working at this company, my relationship with my father has been strained. When I was a kid, he criticized me and my interests, made jokes about taking my bed and room away from me when I disagreed with him on a subject, got mad when I tried to set boundaries for myself, and put me down whenever I was upset. It’s gotten more strained since I started working for him and since I started dating my current boyfriend a year ago (which is another story. Basically he told me that if I become sexual with my boyfriend that no other guy will want to date me if we break up).

    Yesterday, I put in my two-weeks notice to the person ranked higher than me (and he’s technically my supervisor). I haven’t told my father yet. I know my dad will try to convince me to stay because last year I tried to quit, but I didn’t because I felt so guilty when he kept saying that “he needed me” even though I told him I was unhappy here and started to cry (sorry, I know it’s not professional). I read Alison’s advice and the comments in the letter I mentioned, but I feel the OP had it than I did, and I’m not sure if the same advice would apply to me. I really want to pursue my own dreams and get out of here because it’s taking an emotional toll on me, but I feel I’m a terrible daughter for leaving the family business. Is it okay to leave?

    1. Christy*

      Oh my god leave. You’re not a terrible daughter for wanting to seek a fair wage for your work. Run!

    2. Emily*

      It’s absolutely okay to leave. In fact, I think it’s better for your career for you to work somewhere else rather than the family business.

      Also, you are NOT a bad daughter for wanting this. Your father sounds like a real bully.

      Try to be as objective as you can here. You need to do what’s best for YOU.

      1. Lance*

        That’s just the thing: you’re not a terrible daughter, he’s a terrible father, and you owe him nothing as a result.

      1. Nutella Jar*

        Not yet. I’ve been applying. Part of my reason of quitting to is to move where my boyfriend lives, which is an hour away. It’s been hard having to go to interviews during the weekdays when I live an hour away, and staffing agencies have told me they can’t help me until I live in their city.

        1. MMDD*

          I think putting some distance between you and your father would benefit you immensely. He sounds toxic as a parent and employer (just based on what you said here; obviously I don’t have the details). Parents are supposed to do what’s best for their children, no matter how much it hurts the parent. How is the job market in your boyfriend’s city? Would it be worth it to go without something lined up?

          2. Nutella Jar*

            Job market is pretty good, and there are more vacant jobs than here. I’ve gotten more interviews there than my city. Strangely, they don’t seem to care if you’re currently employed or not. Interviewers keep asking me if I’m still going to work for my current employer, and some of them are a bit thrown off that I’m still employed.

            There’s also a writing organization that I really want to volunteer for, and I know the director who told me to come help whenever I’m in the area. I’m hoping that even with nothing lined up job wise that volunteering will help get me some additional experience and maybe a lead.

        2. MissGirl*

          Off subject but I wouldn’t recommend moving in with your boyfriend yet. Totally move but keep your own place. Sounds like you have a family a little like mine and it would be good for you to figure out who you are on your own. This situation has warped your idea of normal and there’s always the concern you’ll be drawn to a relationship that re-creates your home life.

          Live a full and independent life and don’t feel guilty for second.

          1. Nutella Jar*

            My boyfriend and I have talked about this. I told him that as long the next job pays well enough that I’ll be getting my own place because I want to be independent for a while. I will only move in with him if it takes a long time to find a new job or the job I get also has low pay.

    4. Amber Rose*

      A good parent wants what is best for their kid. Leaving is best for you. Therefore, the good parent in your dad who is buried under the person who is kind of a jerk, wants you to leave. In the short term, he will be upset. But in the long term, the good parent in him who wants you to succeed, will be happy to see you succeed.

      Therefore, leaving is not only what’s best for you, but ALSO makes you a good daughter.

      Focus on that, ignore the words that come out of his mouth for now, and get OUT. You can do it. I’m waving some sparkly pom-poms and cheering you on.

    5. Sibley*

      Quit, find something better.

      Also, go read Captain Awkward’s blog to get some help with how to handle your father.

      1. Lefty*

        I stopped to say something very similar.

        Nutella Jar, you might want to check out Captain Awkward’s articles, especially any about parents and boundaries. Just know that it might be hard to set up boundaries initially, but it gets easier! Best of luck!

        1. Rocketship*

          Thirding that advice! The Captain has been immensely helpful in helping me recover from my similarly-jerky parents. (The “no one else will date you thing” about your boyfriend… same thing was said to me. I am here to tell you nothing could be further from the truth. Lots of people will like you! Turns out, most people don’t give a shit if you’ve had sex before – and the ones who do are pretty big jerks themselves!)

          Dear LW, you deserve to be paid fairly and live freely. Get out of there and go be your awesome self somewhere where your dad can’t be a jerk to you about it.

          1. VioletEMT*

            I got the variation on “no one will ever date you”- he will never marry you if he knows he can get it that easy. Mom actually said “why buy the cow?”

            1. Rocketship*

              Uuuuggghhh that is the grossest and I’ve always hated it. “Why buy the cow” – ok, 1, women are not cows, we are not sex dispensers, and marriage is not a PURCHASE – “when you get can the milk for free?” BECAUSE IT’S NOT A TRANSACTION, IT’S A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HUMANS
              AND THERE’S MORE TO IT THAN THAT UUUGH.

              I have Feelings on this subject. :)

      2. Valkyire*

        ALSO agreeing you should check out Captain Awkward, it’s an incredibly helpful resource.

      3. Specialk9*

        My longer comment is in moderation, but please read Lundy Bancroft’s book “Why Does He Do That”. It changed my life, so much for the better.

        I third the decision to live on your own. People who grow up with an abusive parent often seek out the familiar subconsciously — especially if the same gender as partners (eg father when you date guys, or mother if you date women). Gets lots of therapy on how to recognize the signs, and learn how healthy people negotiate conflict and talk about hard feelings.

    6. Turquoise Cow*

      It’s definitely okay to leave. I highly advise it, even!

      Being your own person and going on your own path doesn’t make you a bad daughter. It’s something you need to do to take care of yourself.

    7. Not in US*

      Fair or not, many employers will discount employment in a family business a little so it will be really good for your career to work somewhere else for a while (even if it’s not forever – although this sounds horrible). So I think this is a really good move.

    8. JustaCPA*

      leave as quickly and as completely as you possibly can. I give you permission. Alison gives you permission. WE ALL GIVE YOU PERMISSION to leave a dysfunctional familial workplace!!

    9. Artemesia*

      If he paid you well and was a decent human being, it is still dicey to try to launch a career in a family business unless you really want to make that your life. If all was well, it would be fine to move on. All is not well. It is imperative for your career growth and mental health that you find a career path not under his thumb. Lots of people have abusive bosses but don’t choose an abusive gather as your boss.

      1. Somebody that I used to know*

        In fact, I work for a family-owned company and they require all their relatives to work somewhere else for a couple of years after finishing their education, because it helps to get new ideas on how things could be done into the company.

    10. Sunflower*

      Please leave. You will be doing yourself the greatest service. Good luck dealing with this- please don’t beat yourself up. You are 100% making the right decision for everyone involved.

    11. Emmie*

      It’s okay to leave. I actually recommend leaving. It sounds like it’s the healthiest for you. It’s also okay to feel conflicted and doubt your decision. It’s okay to cut off contact for however long you need, if that’s what you want to do. It’s okay to not give notice in this environment if that’s what you need / want to do. It’s okay to leave without a job. And even if / when you are intimate with your bf, other men will want you. Your father is wildly out of line and very unhealthy. Go. Don’t look back. You deserve peace and happiness.

    12. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      You’re not a terrible daughter, and it’s in your best interest to leave. Most functional/healthy parents just want their children to be happy. They support their children’s growth and efforts to develop as independent humans. They do not guilt-trip them into continuing to work for unfair wages at a failing company or chastise them for taking necessary sick leave.

      OP, what you’re describing is indicative of emotional abuse (controlling, placing you in financial jeopardy, making you feel insecure about your home/stability, trying to isolate you from your boyfriend by invoking the virgin/whore dichotomy, guilt-tripping you into staying at a sinking ship, criticizing your interests and undermining your self-worth, berating you for doing things like using sick leave because you were sick, etc.).

      I’m not saying that your dad is abusive. It’s just that the behavior you’ve described suggests that your dad is not capable of drawing healthy/reasonable boundaries, and he’s not willing to respect boundaries when you draw them for yourself. I can’t imagine that the debt, low-pay, guilt-tripping, failure to provide basic benefits, interference/frostiness about your boyfriend, etc., are ever going to change. And it sounds like he’s willing to drag you down with him instead of supporting your personal and professional growth and development. Because you can’t change your dad’s behavior, the only way to make this stop is for you to make peace with yourself about leaving.

      I know it’s really hard to leave and feel ok about it. If you grew up in a family like mine, you may have also been hit with a heavy dose of cultural judginess about the “duty” that children (especially girls) owe their parents. Your dad might accuse you of not loving him, of not being grateful, or of not being supportive. Remember that someone who loves you and prioritizes your happiness would not say any of those things to you.

      It’s ok to leave, and it doesn’t make you terrible. It makes you bad-ass, courageous and brave. I’m sending warm thoughts, encouragement, and support.

      1. OhNo*

        I was just going to leave a similar comment. Several of the behaviors you describe are commonly cited markers of emotional abuse. Whether or not your father is abusive is something only you can know, but it’s worth recognizing that either way those specific behaviors are not okay and not normal.

        It is 10000% okay to leave, and it is also okay to decline to discuss your decision to leave with your father. If it helps, think of it like the advice they give in airplane safety demonstrations: you have to help yourself before you can help others. Make sure your oxygen mask is firmly in place by finding another job, moving out, and working on your own dreams for a while.

        1. Specialk9*

          I understand the hedging (“only you can know” if your father is abusive… but as someone who was in an abusive relationship, I was in no way able to recognize what was happening then. Abusers deliberately create a web of confusion, guilt, and misdirection. It’s very hard to realize that no, it’s really NOT you who is in the wrong, who is a bad stupid person who does everything wrong.

          So OP, please talk to a therapist and read books on how abusers operate. I posted above the book that opened my eyes to what was happening.

          And it’s not your fault. Abusers often choose loving, empathetic people because the things that make them kind can also be manipulated. There’s nothing wrong with you. You are not the problem.

    13. Jessesgirl72*

      Leave, and I hope your next employer has an EAP you can use for some counseling.

      Just be careful that you’re not leaving one abusive situation (and that is absolutely what this is) for something with your boyfriend that will be just as precarious, if not more so.

      1. Nutella Jar*

        A year ago I started noticing how my family’s behavior affected me and my behavior, and I think that has helped me not get into another bad situation. My boyfriend is really supportive and has been helping me establish boundaries, understand my emotions and thoughts are normal, and how to stand up for myself. He’s a really great guy.

    14. Carla*

      Leave. Leave, leave, leave, and comfort yourself with the knowledge that once the guilt passes, you’ll feel better about it. Take this from another person who has a very… difficult… relationship with her father.

    15. Nutella Jar*

      Thank you everyone for your encouraging words. My eyes got watery reading all the support, and I cried during the drive to get lunch. Thank you for helping me feel better about my decision.

    16. LKW*

      My dad owned a business and I spent a summer working for him. My step brother worked for him for years as a lead sales person and it strained their relationship pretty much to the breaking point. My dad always thought he was paying my sb more than he was worth and basically felt that the paycheck given meant a lot was owed back. Eventually my sb got a new job. I don’t think my dad ever forgave him for leaving because he now had to hire other sales members and didn’t have nearly the level of control he had over my sb.

      Get out.

    17. Cinnamonroll*

      Does your work situation allow you to be finically independent or does your work situation foster the sense that you are dependent on the family/dad for money?

      If your work situation makes you independent, then you should have no qualms about leaving for better opportunities, better living situation, better choice.

      If your work situation makes you dependent on the family businesss/ dad, then you should feel proud about choosing to go, and go without 2nd guessing yourself.

    18. want to be respectful*

      You have to look out for yourself. Tell your father that family and business do not mesh well. Use the excuse that you want to make it on your own. Your family’s business downfalls are not your concern, that is for the owner to deal with, regardless of your relationship. Your father “needs you” – while I don’t know if this is deliberate, you are paid a lower than average wage and benefits. My bet is your father thinks that because your are family you won’t complain and you “owe” the family. Honestly no one in the normal course of business would put up with these conditions. Your father needs you because he is getting a great educated person for next to nothhing. Tell your father you want to keep family and work separate, then go and spread your wings. You can do it. You are an amazing person, not a terrible daughter. Yes it is more than ok to leave even under the best of circumstances

      1. Not So NewReader*

        OP, your father will always need you and you will always owe the family. Picture yourself twenty years from now, and you now know this to be true. What do you wish you had done differently 20 years earlier (now)?

        It sounds like you have a good chance to build a new life for yourself, I think you should go for it.

    20. Rocketship*

      One more thought:

      None of this makes you a terrible daughter. But even if it did – SO WHAT. You’d still be doing what feels right to you, right? You’d still be making the choices that make you feel good about yourself, yes?

      You don’t owe anyone a “perfect daughter” performance. If anyone tries to tell you you’re being a terrible daughter (you’re not), wear it like armor. “I AM TERRIBLE DAUGHTER THE HUN AND I HAVE COME TO RUIN YOUR BUSINESS BY BEING HAPPY. RAAARRR.” Nothing takes the wind out of an accusation like sarcastically agreeing with it.

    21. Dzhymm*

      You don’t need anyone’s permission to leave any position that you don’t like. The problem with family business, though, is that people often blur the lines between “family” relationships and “business” relationships. I lived this, having grown up in a family business myself. One time my parents lost an account, and they forbade me from ever doing business with that particular company. When I complained they fired back with “Well, what would you think if we made nice to the kids who are bullying you?” Clearly they had a big problem distinguishing business relationshps from personal relationships.

      Don’t let him suck you back in. You *need* some time away from the nest to get your own bearings.

    22. Specialk9*

      I’m so sorry that your father is so unkind, and has some traits that sounds like he may be psychologically abusive.

      Taking away a *bed* from a child over, well, any reason is not ok, and indicates a very troubling controlling punitive mindset. The fact that his business is run unethically and full of illegal practices is not normal or ok, and points to character in your father. The fact that you are an adult and he’s trying to dictate your sexual choices is deeply off, and that the method for controlling your sex life is slut- shaming and tearing down your self – worth? These are the marks of an abuser.

      Please do not work for this man. Please get therapy, lots and lots of glorious therapy. It is impossible to see how wrong all of this is from inside, but you can get out and learn a healthier way. (I’m saying this from personal experience.)

      If nothing else, please read this book (in Kindle so your dad can’t see, or while you’re physically at the library):
      Why Does He Do That, by Lundy Bancroft. It lays out the structure and logic of abusers in a way that cuts through the deliberate chaos and confusion they create.

  10. TJ*

    Last week I made probably the worst mistake I’ve ever made at work, and I’m curious if there’s a way I could have handled it better.

    I was at a conference with some coworkers, and saw my boss’s boss walking with some people I didn’t recognize. There was an event we were all supposed to be going to at the time, but I’d been there earlier in the day and ended up leaving because the event wasn’t at all what I’d expected — it was the type of thing where everyone else there was looking for a career in what I do, and I got swarmed by people wanting to talk to me and was pretty overwhelmed.

    Boss’s boss started talking about how they were heading to the event, and I mentioned that I was there earlier but it was weird. That’s when I found out that the people she was with were running the event. They were important connections for our company that I knew by name but not by face, and the first thing I did upon meeting them was criticize this big project.

    We exchanged some awkward introductions and they went to the event, but I knew immediately that I’d messed up really badly. So I followed them to the event, because there was supposed to be “mingling” time later on, and I wanted to find some way to repair the damage. I was trying to remember everything I’d ever learned from AAM about fixing mistakes…

    As soon as the speeches were done and the mingling started, I went over to the most important outside contact to re-introduce myself. I apologized for saying what I’d said earlier with no context, and explained what I thought of the event in a lot more detail — basically that I felt out of place at the very beginning, but that the last part was great and I was really glad they put on the event. I was telling the truth, so hopefully he could tell that I was sincere. His response was that he totally understood what I was saying, and that the first part was meant for people at a much earlier stage of their careers.

    After I finished talking to him, I went to my boss’s boss and said, “I screwed up and I’m sorry.” (Except that I didn’t say “screw” — swearing is a normal part of conversation at my office and the situation warranted it.) I told her that I’d spoken to the outside contact to explain what I meant, and that I didn’t want to overcompensate and make things worse, but to let me know if she thought I should do anything else. She said it was fine, that everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and that talking to the contact afterward helped.

    Then I went to my boss (who was also at the event) and told him what happened so he’d hear it from me first. He said the same thing — that it was okay and I’d done what I could.

    The next day my boss’s boss came over to me at a different event to say that as soon as I made the mistake she knew I’d realize what I’d done and find a way to fix it however I could. She also repeated that it turned out okay, and told me not to beat myself up over it.

    I really appreciated her saying that, but I still feel awful about it. Repairing the damage doesn’t change the fact that I’m an idiot for saying what I said in the first place. Lesson learned: never say anything bad in front of someone you don’t recognize, and assume they’re the most important person in the room until you find out who they are.

    But I’m sure this won’t be the last time I say something stupid. So, is there anything else I could have done to repair the damage?

    1. Fabulous*

      I think you handled it very well! Probably better than I would have at least. What may seem like a huge deal to you probably was just a blip on their day. Heck, they may have taken some of the things you gave as feedback to heart and implement changes based on it. I don’t see any lasting damage you did, and honestly, even the first interaction was more just awkward rather than damaging.

      1. Anatole*

        Totally agree with Fabulous. You handled this all very professionally. I think most everyone has had an instance of open mouth, insert foot. (I once was at a funeral home for a coworker that passed away and said to the deceased’s son, who I knew from another context, it’s so good to see you. I could have smacked myself for that one.) You addressed it with the contact and then immediately looped in your boss’s boss and your boss. Honestly, even if they weren’t so understanding, I don’t think there’s anything else that you could/should have done differently.

        1. LucyUK*

          My great aunt (who we don’t see often) cheerily said “we must do this again some time!” as she left the reception after my grandad’s funeral; it happens.

      2. Turquoise Cow*

        Yeah, I agree. And the fact that you got a response of “it’s ok, nbd,” from three people, two within your company and a third who could have been directly affected and insulted by the comments, means that it’s definitely ok.

    2. Mr. Demeanor*

      You did a great job apologizing and sorting things out. You’ve been forgiven by everybody involved, except yourself. I think that’s the last step to move on, not trying to find more ways to iron things out. Have a great weekend.

    3. Amber Rose*

      You already did plenty. And honestly, “weird” isn’t that big of an insult. If you’d set it was awful, or stupid, or a complete mess, then that would be ugly, but weird is pretty ambiguous. They probably didn’t even really notice it.

      The damage in this case was barely a scratch, so take your boss at face value and accept that everyone has slipped up with their words before, and that you did a good job fixing it, and that you shouldn’t beat yourself up over this.

    4. em2mb*

      It sounds to me like you handled your mistake with grace and dignity! If your boss’ boss is telling you not to beat yourself up over it, then you should try not to (though of course, that’s much easier said than done). You’ve learned an important lesson about networking and conferences that most of us will learn at some point in our careers.

    5. Jessie the First (or second)*

      You handled this gracefully and professionally, and please don’t spend even one more second worrying about it!

      There is not a person in the history of ever who hasn’t managed to put her foot in her mouth at one point or another. You did, but then you recovered quickly enough to repair any damage. Really, I cannot imagine there is any harm done at this point.

    6. Rosamond*

      This is so much better than the worst things like this that I’ve done, and you handled it a lot better, too.

    7. Jaydee*

      Everything you did sounds perfectly reasonable and it sounds like whatever damage was done to the relationship with the event organizers has been repaired.

      You can’t prevent yourself from ever making a mistake, saying the wrong thing, putting your foot in your mouth, etc. Everyone does that. The important things are 1) not doing it so often that you start to get a reputation for being careless or boorish or insensitive and 2) recovering gracefully. It sounds like #1 isn’t a problem for you since your boss’s boss said she knew you’d realize what you’d done and try to fix it. It sounds like she has a good opinion of you. And clearly you did fine with #2.

      Your brain will fixate on what you did wrong as long as you’ll let it (trust me – I’m 36 and can still *vividly* remember really insignificant stupid stuff I said and did as a small child). Don’t let it. Whenever it tries to remind you that you screwed up, turn right around and remind yourself that you also fixed that and both your boss and boss’s boss said it was fine and you had a pleasant interaction with the event organizer.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        I have a thing I call the ‘3 day rule’. Basically, whenever something like this happens that I obsess about (like getting chewed out at work for something someone else screwed up – which just happened the other week, as a matter of fact), I tell myself that after 3 days it won’t seem so big or important. Day 1, it’s all I can think about. Day 2, I’m still annoyed and keep winding myself up, but I’m starting to get over it. Day 3, I’m on the home stretch; sure, it’s on my mind, but I’m moving on to other things. And then by Day 4, I’m golden.

        I’ve found that the more I put things into this perspective, the easier it is to handle Days 1-2. Like, if something happens that annoys me, I’ll just remind myself that by Day 3 I won’t be nearly as upset, and somehow that really helps me deal with everything.

        The theory also works with papercuts, mosquito bites, and most stomach flus.

        1. writelhd*

          This is a really great concept for the mistake or conflict overobsessers among us–and OP, I think you’re overobsessing over a mistake that you handled just fine. I know because it takes one to know one. :)

    8. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I think you handled it perfectly. But as someone who regularly puts her foot in her mouth, I totally understand reliving it a million times in your head!

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Nah, you handled it very well. We all make mistakes–the key is that you owned it and you did what you could to make it right. Take your boss’s advice to heart; keep the lesson and let the shame go.

    10. SansaStark*

      As a former event planner, I’d have taken your comment as some honest feedback of how the event was being perceived by its attendees…..which, is actually really useful even if it might sting a bit. I tend to go over and over these kinds of flubs in my head, too, but I really think that you did an exceptional job of addressing this but not making a huge deal of it with them. I think it would be good to take them at their word that you handled it well.

    12. Renee*

      I don’t think “weird” is that bad. It can easily mean a feeling of subjective discomfort rather than the event itself and it sounds like you explained that. If I put myself in the place of the organizers, I would totally understand what you meant with the explanation. So I think it was a slip but that’s all it was. I don’t think it played as badly as you seem to think it did.

  11. WellRed*

    I was quite annoyed the other day by the many comments suggesting the cam couple hang out a shingle as freelance writers or editors as if it’s a no-skilled job. Who else has job that everyone thinks, “Oh, anyone can do that!”

    1. Mouse*

      The NYT copyeditors were recently in the news for writing an open letter about the value of their jobs. I thought it was a great read.

    2. AnonyMeow*

      Marketing is one of those fields, I think. It’s difficult to check myself sometimes, when non-marketing people come up with brilliant ideas, like “I know, we should start an Instagram account!” or “I know, we should advertise in Singapore, there’s a lot of rich people there!”

      I haven’t found a quick way to shut this down while not spending too much time explaining why it wouldn’t be worth the $$$ and not offending the good-hearted staff who just want to promote the organization.

      1. Grits McGee*

        I work in government and we have an employee who has just so.many.bad.ideas. about “promoting the agency.” Not only are the actual ideas costly/IT-intensive and don’t really represent the mission of our agency,* we barely have enough resources to serve the customers we do have.

        *Or sometimes he just pitches things that already exist.

      2. writelhd*

        Marketing is definitely one of those fields. I’m not it it myself, but our marketing manager is a Rock Star and I’m so impressed with her. She has noted out loud in business development sessions we’ve had together that lots of ideas for company improvement come up that are “market more, market more like THIS etc” and she handles with grace quite a few ideas sent her way that she, being a super Rock Star who is very capable, has already researched and assessed as not worth it or is in fact already doing. There’s tons of more financial acumen and business strategy stuff going on in a great marketing department, it’s not just about printing up fliers.

      3. esra (also a Canadian)*

        It is extremely tough to (quickly and politely) be like, thanks for your 101 bad idea. It is real bad, please just trust me and don’t make me explain the (super basic) reasons why.

    3. Jen RO*

      I’m a technical writer, but weirdly I haven’t heard this too much! Most people in my company seem to understand that what we do requires specific skills… but they also expect us to read minds. Maybe we should add that to our job ads?

      As a sidenote: it’s sometimes depressing to think that in my department of ~20 people only about 5 have strong editing skills. Because we hire juniors and corporate policy doesn’t allow us to give an extensive test, we sometimes end up with people who need serious training until they can do a decent job… The few people with strong editing skills are gold!

      1. May*

        The tech writing job ads I see are often looking for a combination of technical writer and another job-that-seems-like-its-own-job (software developer, social media manager, etc.).

        (Is there a way to take conversations off-board here? Jen RO, I’m interested in talking with you if so.)

        1. Jen RO*

          You can email me at jennee at gmail com if you want. I am not in the US though, so if you’re looking for job advice, I don’t know how helpful I can be!

      2. Elizabeth West*

        What May said. I have mad editing skills, but I don’t have a lot of technical skills. It seems like everyone wants those–and then of course they end up putting out really crappy documentation. Too many cooks and all that. You make the cake–I’ll put the icing on it. I don’t have to have six STEM degrees to edit your reports, dude. I overhauled an entire department’s documentation without knowing jack about software or banking.

        That’s why my old job (before it changed) was a good fit. It absolutely made use of those skills. Looking back, however, I do wish I’d had the opportunity to learn more; because I was an admin, there wasn’t much chance unless I moved to another department entirely. At the time, I didn’t really want to, until my job changed.

    4. Pet sitter*

      *waves*

      To be fair, a lot of people *can* do my job! They just get turned off by the cleaning and billing and endless driving, so they don’t make a full-time thing of it. :)

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not a full-time teacher any more, but damn if I don’t hear people still saying “Those who can’t do, teach” or “Teaching must be nice—you get the summers off.” If people think teaching is so easy or that teachers are overpaid (yes, I’ve heard that one, too!), they should just quit their “real” jobs and become a teacher and see just how “easy” it is.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        As a teacher, just reading this made smoke come out of my ears. It’s such a disrespected career path, which only makes our day-to-day job exponentially more challenging. Over the years, I have found that the people who are the most critical are the people who would make the worst teachers!

        1. Artemesia*

          I taught high school for 4 years in the 60s. I had great students in an easy district and didn’t face most of the challenges teachers today are facing. Even so it was the toughest job I had in my 45 years in the workforce. I had 160 students and that meant at least 160 essays to grade a week. I had to prepare lessons for several different subjects/classes. These things occurred every evening and every weekend. During the summer I went to school for my masters. (the masters or advanced work is required most places to be licensed) I worked easily 80 hours a week consistently. Yes having summer off is a nice perk but most teachers are either working a second job or going to school then.

          It is even tougher today where teachers have to manage behaviorally disordered students often with no support from administration or adequate resources.

        2. Cleopatra Jones*

          And the ones who want to be teachers so that they can prove how much smarter they are than everyone else. Ugh, they are the worst.

        3. Student*

          I think teaching is a hard job to do very well at, where you make a meaningful difference in kids’ education and lives.

          I think teaching is easy to do just well enough at to not get fired for many years.

          I had a couple of teachers who did a great job and imparted really important things to me. I remember them well and fondly.

          I had a lot of teachers who were basically blah – the class textbook was a better source of information. They were, in truth, glorified babysitters – they kept the mean kids in line or distracted, and added nothing to my life. I don’t remember their names or faces, truth be told, and I doubt they ever knew mine.

          I had a couple of teachers who either made one big memorable mistake towards me or were overall low-grade destructive, dehumanizing forces in my life. I will remember them for the rest of my life, and if I saw them on the street as an adult I’d probably do something inappropriately retaliatory and immature that I’d regret later.

          I don’t know how it breaks down among those categories for most people, but for my experience – most teachers were mediocre people who didn’t do the 80-hour week stuff, they coasted and didn’t care much and survived by doing the minimum. A couple were amazing, and it stood out that they were working long hours. A few were menaces who should’ve been fired, and it was a shame on the whole profession that they were protected by their mediocre colleagues.

          Then there was college. The people I knew who went off to study to be teachers were not the smartest people in the class. They were below-average students. Most wanted to “work with kids” rather than to pass knowledge on to the next generation. They had daffy ideas that kids were “cute” and they as teachers could do silly glitter crafts and music exercises all day and play dress-up and pretend. They didn’t want to be grown-ups, or they wanted some fantasy idea of fun interactions with kids that bears no resemblance to any real kid I’ve met but looks a lot like a Disney Sing-Along Special character.

          So, no, I’m not impressed by the average teacher, but I’ve seen great ones and know the profession is capable of being amazing and deep. As a profession, it doesn’t attract top talent; it attracts a handful of true-believer semi-volunteers who do something amazing, and a bunch of coasters who didn’t know what else to do with themselves once they grew up, but thought teaching would be fun and safe and easy.

      2. Courtney W*

        Yep, I came here to say this. Those two phrases plus the people who like to refer to teachers as glorified babysitters and bash our country’s education compared to other countries. And of course, those doing the bashing want to blame the teachers, saying that our generally small salaries are too big, instead of looking at the bigger picture. I’m very new to the field (okay, I’m not technically in the field yet – one more year! But I’ve passed my certification tests if that counts for anything), but for years I’ve watched my mom be given very specific programs she HAS to use because some higher up with no actual teaching experience decided on it, only to have them throw it out and switch to something new halfway through the year. It’s ridiculous. Sometimes it feels like the more accurate phrase would be “those who can’t teach pass laws about teaching.” Not all lawmakers, of course, but…well, I’m from Michigan, so DeVos has been using her money to control things here for quite some time.

        Sorry, that turned into a major rant! I’m usually pretty optimistic about wanting to make a difference for my future students and becoming the best teacher possible. But I’ve heard people make these comments to my mom about her profession for ages and it’s always annoyed me so much.

      3. A Person*

        I could go on for hours about the problems I have at my teaching job. Blessedly my students are 90% cooperative and well behaved but bugger me if it isn’t an uphill battle against some of the sloppier practices of my co-workers. Just today I had co-workers talking over me when I was already in conversation with parents/students and other co-workers not properly checking to see if their students had arrived.

      4. JustaTech*

        Many years ago I saw a T-shirt in a catalog that said “Those who can, do. Those who can do better, teach”. It seemed like a nice sentiment, but I didn’t understand why someone would bother putting it on a shirt until I heard the “those who can’t, teach” thing, which is so inane and rude.

      5. Amy Cakes*

        My spouse quit teaching after several decades in an extremely impoverished district. The BS he had to put up with for lousy money is enough to make people’s heads spin. I have so many little anecdotes that I almost enjoy hearing criticism about teachers, because I can fire back on all cylinders at a moment’s notice.

        “Yeah, it was great when Mr. Cakes got infested with lice three times in one year. he also got stabbed trying to break up a fight. That’s definitely worth earning less than $40,000 a year with a master’s degree.”

      6. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I was just coming here to say pretty much this identical thing. (I’m a former teacher, too.)

      7. JulieBulie*

        That kind of nonsense and lack of respect is why I decided not to become a teacher. :-(

        I mean, I’m happy with what I do now, and there are other reasons I might not have been a good teacher anyway – but those critics should be more respectful to the professionals who spend so much time with other people’s children.

      8. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

        I can’t get a direct link because YouTube is blocked at work, but look up Taylor Mali’s spoken word poem, “What Teachers Make”. It responds to exactly this kind of terrible attitude, and it’s incredibly powerful.

        1. Victoria, Please*

          One of my favorites. “I make a god-damned difference, how about — YOU?”

      9. Dead Quote Olympics*

        Ugh. Not a teacher, but both my parents and my MIL, FIL, and SIL were/are teachers, as well as many friends and it’s astounding to me how dismissive people are about teachers in general and how little people understand about the work itself and the work conditions. If it’s any consolation, my BIL got so angry with that attitude during the Chicago teachers strike, he got on talk radio with a very spirited defense of the profession and became temporarily rather famous. We try and remember that whenever he’s taxing our patience with some other rantings about Chicago.

    6. Poppy Bossyboots*

      Funny, I have the opposite problem. I keep telling my friends that they can make real money as freelance writers/editors, and while many have initially expressed interest, asked for advice, created online profiles, etc., only one ever made an actual effort (and she’s been quite successful!).

      The difference may be that all my friends are English teachers, so their writing skills are already above average, which is why I’m sure they can do the work.

      1. Nun Ya*

        How does one go about becoming a freelance writer or editor? (Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere before.)

        1. Poppy Bossyboots*

          There’s probably a thousand different answers, depending on your skill-set and what kind of work you’re interested in. I started by making a profile on Upwork and bidding on jobs there. First I took any job I could get; as I got more experience, I started specializing in a few specific areas, like game narrative design and scriptwriting. Now I’ve got some great long-term clients so money is reasonably steady. That’s how my husband and I did it. :)

          I’d be curious to hear how others got started.

          1. Nun Ya*

            Thanks for the info :)

            (I initially incorrectly read your name as “Poopy” Bossyboots hehe…)

          2. nep*

            I’ve been thinking about using Upwork. Sounds like you would recommend it? I’m late here — would be interested to hear of others’ experiences with it.

            1. Poppy Bossyboots*

              It depends on what your field is. Upwork does take a hefty percentage of the freelancer’s fee, which is annoying, but it’s a good source of leads. I’ve found a lot more quality clients that are willing to pay an appropriate rate on Upwork than on, say, Fiverr.

    7. Michelle*

      I’ve been an administrative professional for 15 years. EVERYONE thinks it’s so easy to do what I do. They think all I do is answer phones and order office supplies! However, I have never, not once in 15 years, gone on vacation without getting at least 3 phone calls asking for help with something.

      1. Liberty4All*

        My best friend is an administrative professional and she sent me a photo once of something on her desk. The moment I noticed she had two monitors, I was like, “Nope, no way I could do that job!”

        1. nonegiven*

          My husband has 3 monitors because there isn’t room for 4. He isn’t an admin and doesn’t spend all his time at a desk.

        2. Jadelyn*

          I love my two monitors! I got everyone on my team hooked on it too, once they saw how I could use it to make things so much faster for myself. I’d have a third if I.T. would let me.

          1. Electron Wisperer*

            Most of my office runs at least two screens, and several people have no less then four.

            Tip, get ones with stands that let you turn the screen thru 90 degrees, a widescreen set so it is tall rather then wide is **so much** better for document work.

            Screens are cheap, and two (or three) make a big difference to anyone who works with more then one complicated document at a time, I mean an extra screen is what? Less then 2 days pay? It does not take much time saving over three years to cover that!

      2. zora*

        Yup, same here, fellow Admin! There are so many things I take care of that my boss has no idea are even coming up. Thankfully my current boss is very pleasant to work for and appreciative, but trying to get a decent raise out of the company is like pulling teeth.

        Also, event and meeting planning, which I want to do more of. But the number of times people think they can just ‘throw together’ a meeting with no agenda and then later complain about how much time they have to spend in meetings, GAH! So many people underestimate the work that goes into planning an effective and useful meeting.

        1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          And today’s admin doesn’t just support 1 or 2 people. I cover 30 people and have to keep meetings, travel and other events organized. Plus keep up to date with company policies. And that’s not even half the job.

            1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

              @Michelle. Oh Yes!! the different personalities. That’s a job in and of itself. LOL

              1. Jadelyn*

                My team did a retreat last year and one of our activities was “draw a self-portrait of you at work”. I drew myself herding cats into a corral. You have to know how to approach each different person, who needs the gentle touch, who’s going to need their hand held, who can be trusted to just do what you need and get it back to you, who will need their boss cc’d on something before they actually do it, who will have a billion questions…

      3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        @Michelle. Yes. I’m an admin, too and yes, a lot of people think it’s a mindless job. I always say “if they only knew.” and like you, whenever I’m on vacation, I get emails asking about this, that and the third thing.

        1. Not a Morning Person*

          Have you considered responding…: “Oh that’s easy! I’m sure you can figure it out. And how would you like me to code my time for this work that I’m doing on this call with you?”

      4. Jadelyn*

        This sort of attitude led my team to hire a TERRIBLE admin for our team – I’ve been our admin for several years but I’m developing away from that area so we needed additional admin support, and got authorization to hire a temp to see how it would go if I had more time to work on my non-admin stuff I’ve started doing.

        Well, the first time, I wasn’t involved in the hiring. They hired a complete idjit who knew nothing about computers – for example, one time the man came to me and said he’d started a new folder on our shared drive because the folder he’d been saving things to was “full”, meaning the files reached the bottom of the window. He didn’t realize that you could keep adding things and it would automatically let you scroll up and down.

        This time, I begged them to let me do the hiring. It was a panel interview (me and 3 teammates, interviewing each candidate together), and we interviewed several that I said no on, and then one who I knew right away was going to be great. I told them flat out, if they’d have let me, I’d have offered it to her on the spot.

        She’s now been here for 3 weeks and has been a godsend. Everyone loves her. I’m trying *so hard* not to get smug about this, lol.

        Anywho. People have no idea what all happens behind the scenes with admin professionals. I’ve joked with people that if I’m doing my job right, you shouldn’t even know what I do, because I take care of problems before you notice them. But it is a skilled job with a lot of challenges, not something anyone who can answer a phone and file papers can do.

        1. zora*

          “if I’m doing my job right, you shouldn’t even know what I do, because I take care of problems before you notice them.”

          Stealing this!!! That is totally what people don’t get.

    8. Dankar*

      I agree! Freelance writing is incredibly difficult to do. I guess, given all the resources available to connect people with that kind of work, that yes, anyone could technically do it. BUT it is nearly impossible to make a living at it if you don’t know what you’re doing in terms of the copy-editing, self-promotion, invoicing, etc.

      People say weird stuff like that all the time when it comes to writing. I’ve been shopping a collection of short stories (the culmination of my thesis and nearly 7 years of work), and to this day I get people who come up and say, “Oh, I’ve always wanted to write a book. I think I’ll try that when I’ve got some free time.”

      Noooo, buddy.

      1. Poppy Bossyboots*

        Ooh, or when someone essentially says, “I want to be an author, and I’ve got a great idea for a story, I just need you to do all the technical writing stuff.” As if the *execution* of said story idea and the *craft* of writing are just a question of banging the right keys…

        Anyway, good luck with your collection!

        1. Dankar*

          So true! I mean, ghostwriting is an art form that is just far beyond me, so I really respect anyone who can do that kind of work, but we’ve all got great ideas–the follow-through is what creates the art.

          1. Poppy Bossyboots*

            You just phrased that so much more elegantly than I did…which I think makes the point about the importance of good writing. :p

      2. Elizabeth West*

        HAHAHAHA
        I love when people ask what it’s like to write a book. I tell them the truth–that it’s like doing a long homework assignment. For six months. If you add up first draft, revision, edits, new edits, edits after beta readings, more revision, etc. I just finished a post-rejection revision and edit number 13 on Tunerville and somebody better buy it because I am so f*cking sick of it I want to cry.

        And even if I get an agent, they will probably have a ton of editing suggestions too. Oy. >_<

        Somebody said to me just last week, "You know, just the fact that you wrote a book[s] makes you an incredible badass." THAT was good to hear.

        1. Dankar*

          Ugh, sounds so familiar! Honestly, though, I do my best edits and am most proud of my work after I’ve redone a piece to the point where I’m so sick of it I can’t even look at my latest draft. Something about that angry emotional disconnect let’s me be ruthless about cutting what doesn’t work.

          Best of luck shopping your manuscript! Lucky number 13, right?

      3. nep*

        Ohhh man. That just screams, ‘I’ve got precisely zero idea what I’m talking about.’

    9. NoMoreMrFixit*

      IT support. It amazes me how many people I’ve dealt with over the years who think that because they can install Office they’re suddenly just as skilled as a techie with a formal IT background.

      The other field I’ve encountered this is music. Specifically singing. As a choir director it was sad how many people thought they were great singers but couldn’t carry a tune in a wheelbarrow, never mind a bucket! Trying to find a delicate way to tell them they couldn’t join the choir was an ordeal.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I do IT stuff now, and I think it kind of goes both ways. On the one hand, there are self-identified “tech illiterates” who insist that basic computer use is some kind of rocket science. On the other hand, there are the “power users” who know just enough to be dangerous and mess up their machines (but not enough to fix their own problems).

        I make no secret of the fact I do a large percentage of my job by Googling solutions and doing trial and error. But it certainly also isn’t something anyone can do well.

    10. Caro in the UK*

      Ha :) I work in media and I’m often out filming. I get a lot of “I’ve got a camera, I could do your job”.

    11. Pup Seal*

      Last week I helped a guy write his letter of intent for grad school. He was so appreciated of my help and understood writing and editing are skills you have to develop.

    12. MuseumChick*

      Working in a museum as a curator/collections manager/registrar is often like that. We tend to get the two extremes “This must be a really fun, awesome job and since I happen to passionate about X I can do it with no experience!” Or the, “Wow, I bet you have to be able to read, speak, and write in multiple languages and know absolutely everything about (extremely obscure subjects) to work in a museum.”

      Neither is true.

      1. AMT*

        My friend is a curator at the Met. In order to hang out, I tend to have to schedule time at weeks in advance. He’s that busy. There are plenty of “oh shit I’ll be in Rome then” moments.

      2. Museum Worker*

        And you have to deal with all those people who think they have found the rarest, most valuable item in the world. (Science museum- everyone has found a meteorite and wants to know how much we will give them for it. Nothing because it’s usually iron slag and we have to have a lot of verifiable information that they never have)

        1. nonegiven*

          My cousin actually got something he had in a box for decades put into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He was in middle school band with Dusty Hill. I think it was a program, he said they took it wearing gloves.

          1. Museum Worker*

            That rare and valuable item does occasionally show up, but they are far and few between. :)

    13. fposte*

      Lots of people. It’s just that every field thinks that it’s the only field this happens to :-). (And I speak as a writer/editor.)

    15. Red Reader*

      I’m a medical coder on a fully remote team.

      “Isn’t that just data entry? I’d love to just punch numbers all day in my pyjamas.”

      Pardon me while I bludgeon you to death with 30 pounds of code books that I have practically memorized, anatomy references, medical dictionaries, and the framed certification that I’ve been taking continuing education for TWELVE YEARS to maintain.

        1. Red Reader*

          we’ve had some issues lately where if you DO code correctly, it STILL causes all kinds of problems, because what the coding guidelines require and what the payers will accept occasionally are diametrically opposed. :P

      2. nonegiven*

        I heard they just changed all the codes, too. My doctor fired her previous company for not getting things done.

      3. Toph*

        Why do so many people hear “remote” and follow up with “pyjamas”? This happens to me all the time. Sure, I don’t wear business casual when I work remotely, but PJs are not the default here either. So frustrating.

      4. Anonymity*

        I am effectively in actual data entry and while I by no means have to deal with code books and certifications, it’s still not a job that just anyone can do. Some people are just terrible with computers, or with certain programs, or with following directions or multi-tasking or even retaining information. Those are people who could possibly muddle through the smaller parts of my job (…we have employees who do exactly that… muddle through), but could not begin to do the full scope of it.

        1. Red Reader*

          Yeah, there’s that too. I’ve done data entry, and while I didn’t find it terribly difficult myself, I’ve known a bunch of people who couldn’t hack it.

    16. Your Weird Uncle*

      I had the opposite thing with my former career: I used to be a field archaeologist. You need a certain amount of schooling to get there, yes, but frankly I always thought a trained monkey could have done the bulk of my job. (At that point, it was mostly very unglamorous walking-digging-sifting-walking-digging-sifting, etc.)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        We went to the Illinois River Valley to visit the Center for American Archaeology and the Koster site on a field trip when I took an archaeology class at uni. They were digging test pits in a field opposite the site (it’s a pasture now, with cows and everything). We learned how to sift and to dress down the sides of a pit. It was fun, because I found a piece of worked stone (in the plow zone, but still), but I could see how tedious it could be to do that all day. I only did it for twenty minutes!

        Off topic: It was a fun trip, though; we also made some pottery the way Paleo-Indian people would have and learned a little bit about flint knapping. I had no money and was in the throes of major depression after a serious relationship ended, and my instructor bought me a knapping kit at Cahokia that I still have. He was one of my favorite teachers and we’re still in touch. <3 This is also the trip where I got to bottle feed a baby bear. I have a picture of me doing that somewhere.

        1. Your Weird Uncle*

          One of my favorite classes was called Experimental Archaeology – we did flint knapping, ceramics, faience, and a tiny bit of metalwork. At the end we had to do a special project and one woman decided she wanted to smelt her own iron, so we all stayed up in the woods drinking and working the furnace. It was awesome. :)

          Also, super jealous about bottle feeding a baby bear! I didn’t know until now that is my lifelong dream! I wouldn’t have wanted to give it back.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Oh my God the smelting thing sounds amazing!

            I didn’t hold him; he was in a cage at a petting zoo. He climbed up on the barrier and I stuck the bottle in between the bars. He grabbed my arm and held on while I was feeding him. Those little buggers are strong–I could not get away until he was done! So I stuck my other hand through and rubbed his little back while he was drinking. His name was Boomer. :) When he was finished, he dropped off without so much as a thank you, haha.

            A bear cub crying sounds like a cross between a goat and a human baby screaming. If you’re in the deep woods and you hear that, probably good to go the other way, LOL.

    17. AMT*

      When I say I’m a therapist, everyone has a variation on the theme of “I’ve never needed therapy/I have a neurotic friend in therapy and it hasn’t helped/I don’t understand why anyone needs therapy/it’s just talking about your problems, right?” It’s also a job that a lot of people do as a second career or retirement career, so the perception that it’s something anyone can do is out there (not to mention that the second career folks have the advantaged of looking more experienced, even if they’re just out of grad school!).

      It’s maddening because it’s *not* something everyone can or should do, nor is it a hocus-pocus field with no standardized practices. It’s possible to be terrible at it, even if you’ve been in the field for years. It’s not “just talking” and it takes an enormous amount of skill and practice.

    18. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in admissions at a university. It’s an entry-level role, but many aspects of my job were added on after I proved myself to be capable, competent, and professional. I am pursuing a graduate degree (paid for by my employer) that relates to my field and I want to work in admissions long-term.

      Sure, some of my coworkers are fresh college grads with no career outlooks or aspirations, just killing time. But I’m taking this seriously and I am recognized for that on a daily basis. I feel good about where I’m at.

    19. Kat*

      Yeah, that annoys me. And proofreading! People are always proofreading here and there but it takes time to become good at doing that. Not everyone can just do it and do it well. It irritates me no end.

      1. nep*

        At one of my jobs (news/editorial), I had to convince a couple of higher-ups that, uh, no, editing and proofreading are not the same and yes, we need to regard proofreading as a critical step in and of itself.

    20. LadyKelvin*

      I’m a marine biologist so people assume all I do is play with marine animals all day and a lot of people tell me that’s what they wanted to be when they were a kid. Then they ask if I spend all day diving or swimming with dolphins. I think it breaks their heart when I tell them I sit in front of a computer all day and debug code. Then I mention that I use calculus every day of my life (seriously!) and then they look shock and say they were bad at math.

      1. nep*

        Using that calculus every day — how cool.
        (Upon reading the title ‘marine biologist ‘ does anyone else think of the Seinfeld episode?)

      2. Close Bracket*

        Wow. I’m an engineer. I haven’t used calculus since my school days. I should have been a marine biologist. :-(

    21. The New Wanderer*

      I have a PhD and over a decade of experience in my field, which is definitely necessary to do the work well. We definitely get poseurs who think that because they got a certificate from a short program or took a course once, they have senior-level skills.
      Worse than the people who think they can do my job? Managers who don’t know the difference. I was just laid off while my managers retained someone with a certificate as “higher value” to the team. Sadly the higher value calculation is that her salary is much lower than mine and, as I mentioned, they can’t tell the difference in quality (aka *why* I was worth the higher salary!).

    22. LesleyC*

      Social media management. It kills me when managers just want to hire a college student for such a crucial public-facing job function–as if knowing how to schedule a tweet is equivalent to being a good social marketer. Blerg.

    23. Lady Jay*

      I teach. While I don’t hear a lot of people saying, “Anyone can do that!” a lot of people do *try* . . . and do it poorly. I sit in training sessions for work, or education sessions with my faith community, and the education provided is just not good. At all. Lower-order thinking skills, heavy lecture, all input and no application. I keep wanting to jump in and redesign the lesson for them!

    24. Susan*

      Maybe not so much that anyone can do it, but not recognizing when it is needed. I am a project manager. I work at a company that has been working on a major project for the last three years, involving over 60 people across about a dozen teams – without PM involvement. I got involved with the project about a year ago and helped bring PMing into it. It’s an extremely large project so things are not “all better now” but there are definite improvements.

      1. JulieBulie*

        No, there’s also (apparently) a belief that anyone can do it, because when our project managers retired, they just threw two warm bodies at that role. These existing employees were interested in project management, but had no experience. But you know what? It would be nice to have project managers who had some experience managing projects!

    25. OhNo*

      Librarian here, and HOO BOY do I get this a lot. Usually paired with, “It must be nice to read all day!” or people being shocked that you need a master’s degree.

      1. mugsy83*

        I work in occupational safety and I get the same sentiments — “Isn’t safety just common sense? You went to school for that?”

    26. Stranger than fiction*

      Admin Assistant! My mom said recently how my sister should be able to get a job “doing what you do” and I was like “Nope. She could not. She barely knows how to turn on a computer let alone do all the Excel reports and other programs I run all day long, all involving said computer”. (I realize there’s a broad range or what admins do depending on company, but I’m pretty sure they all involve PC proficiency)

      1. Anonymity*

        Our part-time people (how I started out at my current company, too) are classified as admin assistants, though it’s primarily data entry, and I feel your pain, so very much.

    28. a girl has no name*

      Media Relations. People I work with want to call the station about the most boring, humdrum info. “Of course they will be interested!” No they won’t, because it’s not news!

    29. Susan*

      Haha, I have a friend who lost her job, and she posted on Facebook, “Now that I have a lot of time on my hands, I’m going to try my hand at freelance writing. If you have anything you need written, let me know!” Apparently, all you have to do to make a living at freelance writing is post it on Facebook, and people will be knocking down your door to pay you to write stuff for them.

    30. LS*

      Me. I’m in UX / usability and people refer to it as common sense / drawing pictures / my opinion. Or they think it’s something visual designers and business analysts can do once they’ve been on a 2 day course. It’s frustrating to try and educate people all the time on what we actually do and why “it takes so long”.

    31. Close Bracket*

      Funny, I’m an engineer. Pretty anyone *could* do most of the jobs I’ve held.

      Also, I just hung out a shingle to be a freelance editor.

  12. Anon for this one*

    So grateful for the open thread today. Management issue here!

    My organization does promotions by committee on a semi-annual basis. The last round was just completed — managers put their staff up but the committee decides who is promoted based on the materials we submit and feedback the solicit from those who work with the staff. Several folks on my team (I’m the overall team manager) went up this round. Everyone got promoted… except one. I have two “Teapot Assistants” on my team one (“A”) who is really strong in one aspect of teapot development (at more of a mid-level than junior level) but not as strong in the other aspects and one (“B”) who is generally really strong on all aspects but struggled a bit with a health issue earlier this year. A was promoted. B was not. A & B started at about the same time and have been working in parallel from the beginning.

    The question is, how do we communicate to B that she was not promoted? I think this would have been okay had both A & B not been promoted, but that fact that A was and B was not was a surprise to all of us.

    Help!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think a good way to contextualize this for B would not be to focus the promotion not gotten (though obviously still communicate that to B) but on when B can next expect to get a promotion and what B would need to do to get it.

        1. fposte*

          That’s not necessarily shady, though. Unless the absences are protected by FMLA, it’s legal to consider B’s lesser accomplishments due to absence as preventing her from meeting the standard; it’s also possible that B’s illness impaired her initiative or other aspects of her performance while she was there.

          If you merely meant “sucky” and “kind of stupid given the context given” that’s a different matter; I’d agree with that.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Depending on what the health issue was, that can still run afoul of ADA protections if the company is in the U.S.

            1. fposte*

              Yup, absolutely true, and a good catch; I should have included that when I was listing laws.

      1. Ash (the other one)*

        The committee claimed she didn’t show enough leadership on tasks (rather than playing a support role)… but she’s an assistant moving to a senior assistant role. It makes no sense to me. We’re going to appeal…but it’s still the communication of all this I’m worried about.

        2. Courtney W*

          Are you allowed to tell her you’re appealing it? If I were B I would appreciate knowing that you realize the situation doesn’t seem right.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I agree. Even if the lack of promotion were “not shady” for the reasons fposte describes, above, if I were B I would feel pretty demoralized. If you’re allowed to, I would:

            1. Tell her you’re appealing the promotion decision;
            2. Strategize with her to set a path/plan for how to get her the leadership experience she needs to qualify for promotion;
            3. Provide a realistic timeline of when she can expect to be promoted going forward.

            The hard part is that she’s probably going to feel like she was penalized for being sick and now has to wait longer to achieve the same professional milestones as A. That’s kind of a crappy feeling if you know you would have otherwise met standards.

        3. Observer*

          If there is ANY chance that she is covered by either the FMLA or the ADA, you want to point out to the committee that unless they have very, very solid documentation of the issue AND of the fact that A does NOT have this issue, any competent lawyer will have a field day if B decides to sue. The words at play here would be retaliation and pretext. ie You are retaliating against her for taking off, and using an excuse to cover it up.

        4. BRR*

          Did she deserve to be promoted? If no, I would explain what she needs to do to be promoted like others have suggested (and as a longtime reader I know you would do).

          If yes, things sounds trickier. I can see how one could do well in their position but not deserve a promotion if they aren’t showing enough leadership on their tasks, but by the job titles I can also see how one can’t show leadership. Would a statement like “the committee wanted to see more of X when you’re doing Y” work? I don’t know if this is one of the situations where you need to be supporting a decision you don’t agree with.

    4. Somebody that I used to know*

      I’ve been A in this situation and I don’t exactly know who B was, but it went like this. My manager called me into her office, explained how the promotion committee works and that some people she’d put in didn’t get a promotion due to budget constraints. Some of those people knew they were in the running because they’d asked to get a promotion and my manager had agreed to put them in. Then she handed me my promotion letter and asked me not to run around and tell everyone because people can be really miffed when you get a promotion you didn’t even ask for and they asked and didn’t get one.
      As far as I know, it worked and nobody talked to anybody about promotions that season, so I presume she told all the other people who got promoted or who asked and didn’t get promoted the same thing. If you haven’t spilled the beans yet and if your promotions aren’t very visible outside the paychecks, this might be a way to go.

  13. More anonymous than usual*

    Have you ever had your boss praise your work effusively, give you an unsolicited raise, and then ask you where you see yourself in five years (in a workplace where there isn’t a lot of room for promotion, apart from taking your boss’s job)?

    I honestly don’t know where I see myself in five years, but it just seemed an odd thing to have to answer. I mean, if I did see myself working elsewhere in five years, is that what my boss wants me to say?

    1. Jen RO*

      It depends on your boss. If you worked for me, yes, I’d like to hear that! I’ve already supported a couple of people in internal transfers and I even helped a high performer leave the company, despite the fact that it really hurt the team. She did not enjoy the subject matter and she was underpaid (and the raises I could give her were tiny), so when she told me she interviewed at Company X I reached out to a contact and gave her a glowing recommendation. She is still there, two years later.

      But yeah. It depends on your boss, but it does sound like s/he really is asking the question to be supportive. Maybe you could turn it around by asking if s/he has any suggestions for your development?

    2. Emily*

      1. No, but it happened to my brother once.

      2. Gosh, I don’t know – this might be one of those times when it’s ok to fib. A recruiter told me that in interviews, it’s good to say something like “In a position where I can learn and grow” and leave it at that. But that’s a different situation.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      My feeling is they want you to stay and are aware that you’re good enough that you’re likely going to want to leave if there’s not a chance at advancement – and so are hoping for something along the lines of : “I like working here and could see myself happily staying if x and y happened.”
      Of course, if there /isn’t/ anything that would make you stay, I’m not sure how to diplomatically and honestly mention that. Possibly something like ” I eventually want to become a Senior Teapot Glazer, but it will depend on what opportunities present themselves. For now, I am happy here, because of .”

      1. Emi.*

        It doesn’t even have to be advancement–are there new glazing techniques you want to develop? Glazing conferences you want to present at? Glazing training you want to take?

    4. More anonymous than usual*

      I appreciate all your perspectives. Thanks!

      Yeah, I have a feeling it’s really about hoping that I’m happy and knowing I could find something somewhere else (hence the unsolicited raise). I do have a lot of autonomy to grow and learn in my position without an actual “promotion,” but I just found the question odd. I’m not planning to leave, but if I were… I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying so.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        As others have noted, this is a super normal (and good!) question for a boss to ask. He’s not asking, “Are you loyal / planning to stay?” He’s asking you to talk about the professional experiences you want in order to support your growth.

        For example, I have a consultant friend whose clients are mostly in the U.S. Her boss asked her about her career/professional goals, and she mentioned her desire to take on international clients because she’s interested in moving into global development. So he put her on international projects, which she’s loved. She holds a leadership position in a professional association and was recommended as a delegate to the national board, but she was worried about balancing it because it’s not billable. So her boss lets her off-set that time from her billable hour requirement.

        He knows she’ll probably leave some day, but he asks about her plans because she’s a great employee and he wants to retain her by supporting her growth. I suspect your boss is asking for the same reasons.

    5. fposte*

      I think this seems a pretty reasonable question that’s a good sign about your employer’s interest in you. It’s not “Where do you want your desk to be?” It’s “Where would you like your professional growth to take you?” It’s often an employer-agnostic question–if you want to rise to the level of Teapot Master, start presenting at professional conferences, and consider publishing, you might be able to do that at any number of employers including your current one.

      1. zora*

        Yes, this. If you think your boss is genuine, and not just fishing for validation that you love them (which is totally a thing, so really think about what you know about your boss) then think about an answer that’s more about qualitatively what you want to be doing in 5 years. In the past I talked about how I wanted to develop our training program more, and be presenting regular trainings both internally and externally and have an expanded base in X, Y, Z states. Which was in contrast to another direction I could have taken my job at the time, being more of an analyst and writing and publishing.

        It’s a good thing to think about even if you like your current job and duties. Which would you like to do more of if you could choose what you did all day?

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      It really depends on your organization environment. In mine, saying that I see myself as outgrowing my current position and wanting to move up to a director level within 5 years, even if it meant leaving, wouldn’t count against me in the present. But in some jobs, saying that you were thinking of leaving within 5 years might inspire them to make that happen sooner rather than later.

      That is a standard question on my annual review forms. My department is also one where there isn’t currently any room for vertical promotion unless my director leaves. I usually answer that I’m happy in the role that I’m in, but would like to improve/implement XYZ Goal… BUT, my university is also very “life-long learning” oriented, so if I make a compelling enough case for how it would benefit the university, they might consider creating a new position at manager or assistant director level that doesn’t currently exist.

    7. Rosamond*

      I’ve had this conversation with a report, minus the unsolicited raise which I can’t give. I asked this because I recognize I’m really lucky to have such a higher performer, and that she’s ambitious and there isn’t an obvious position to promote her into at our organization. So what I wanted to know was: how I can give her the support she needs (interesting new assignments? professional development?) to be happy here as long as she can, and help her get set up to move into the next stage of her career.

    8. Red Reader*

      Depends on the boss. My boss knows full well that I want to be farther up the org chain than she is five years down the road, and she’s fully supportive of that and throwing every opportunity for further advancement, special project work, and extra training at me that she can possibly find to further that goal.

    9. Stranger than fiction*

      Given your description of the situation, I’m wondering if he’s planning on moving on or moving up but can’t say that and he’s thinking of promoting you?

  14. Katie the Fed*

    OK, interview story from last week. We were interviewing recent grads, so our questions were pretty broad understanding they wouldn’t have a ton of experience. One of the question was about a goal they had set in the last year and how they set about achieving it. This was one answer:

    “I set a goal to be less of a perfectionist. I’ve been a perfectionist pretty much my whole life but I’ve been trying to be less of one, so I started working on that. I’m doing better on it now.”

    It was everything I could do to not actually facepalm. To be clear – I MIGHT have been ok with it if she’d gone into details about what that meant, how perfectionism was holding her back, what concrete steps she took, etc. But it was clearly just trying to plug some interview prep on strengths and weaknesses into that question.

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Ask me anything because I have an answer. Not necessarily the answer to the question you asked, but it is an answer.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I have strengths and weaknesses, but my strengths are stronger than my weaknesses. My goal is to strengthen my strengths, and I’m working on that everyday. My strengths are so strong now that I no longer have weaknesses. I have the best strengths. Everyone says my strengths are the strongest. My goal is to be the strongest, and I’ve achieved that goal.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This sounds like the bad career advice colleges dole out :( I’m sorry you had to endure it, though!

    3. Jaydee*

      I set a goal to set more goals this year than I set last year. Last year I set 11 goals and so far this year I have set 8 goals, which means I only need to set 4 more goals before the end of the year. That is how I will achieve my goal to set more goals.

    4. Elizabeth H.*

      And you actually could go into some interesting detail on that. One of the most salient differences between school and work is that there is more of an emphasis on done/functional/on time than perfect (I’m speaking generally, obviously there are exceptions). In my case, I sometimes struggle with feeling like there is a “right way” to do things and spending too much time on it, when it would be more efficient to just do the task quickly and call it good, and that actually IS something I try to work on and have as an informal goal. You could talk about the time management aspects of this, difference in level of detail demanded in business writing vs academic papers etc. Missed opportunity!

      1. JulieBulie*

        Yeah – real perfectionism can be a legitimate weakness, and anyone who has worked with a true perfectionist knows that. Nothing gets done on time, or the perfectionist continually focuses on perfecting a particular aspect of the project that is not very important, at the expense of something that is crucial. (E.g., for documents, the perfectionist may become obsessed with formatting instead of double-checking the new part numbers.)

        If candidates can give concrete details about their perfectionism’s consequences and their attempts at remediation, then you can tell that it’s a real weakness that they are trying to address in a thoughtful way.

        But if not, they just sound foolish.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Even then though – it’s so hackneyed that I would say “I tend to get bogged down in double-checking details to the detriment of timeliness” and never utter the word “perfectionism”

          1. JulieBulie*

            OK – you’re right about that. The behavior is more important than the vague and overused label.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            100% agree! The word is so meaningless now and you can really only use it in a positive way. There are some jobs where it’d be a big asset (being a cake decorator is the first one that sprung to my mind) but a lot where it’s not.

    5. Amanda2*

      I hate that answer because every time I team about it, it reminds me of the interview in which I used the “perfectionist” answer early in my career. I cringe to think about it now, but at the time I didn’t know better and I had been researching ways to improve performance during interviews.

  15. bridget (better screen name TBD)*

    I’m in bitch eating crackers mode with a coworker and don’t know what to do about it.

    She’s a senior associate and I’m a mid level at a law firm. She was here first and is clearly a superstar. I find her impossible to work with. On the cases we work on together, I find her impossible to please, very controlling, and I get the strong feeling she is judging everything I do and say very harshly. She creates a stringent wall between me and the partners. My work for her, frustratingly, gets worse under this scrutiny. She is also very involved in almost all aspects of the firm in terms of non-project stuff (social committees, meetings, etc.) and she acts like my difficult boss/mother in more social situations as well. She is not technically my boss or mentor at all, she just is the associate managing some of my cases. Other senior associates in her role act much more like a team lead, and I do much better work in those instances.

    It has gotten to the point where dealing with her is so stressful and makes me so unhappy that I’m considering looking for a new job, saying something to my actual boss/mentor, or both.

    I have a lunch with boss/mentor today. I think I’ll tell him that I do not want to work in practice group X anymore (the silent reason is because then I would not work on cases with the senior associate). I need to “declare a major” anyway, and I’ve been dabbling in multiple practice groups. I think it would be a bad idea to talk about my relationship with the senior associate at all, because she highly valued and I would sound petty or like a diva or like I just don’t like doing good work. The most professional version I can think of is “not a good fit to work together,” but I don’t want to be known as a person who can’t work well with others.

    Thoughts?

    1. Christy*

      If I were struggling with a superstar higher-ranking employee, I would find my closest non-manager mentor and say something like “I’ve found it really challenging to work with _____. I know _____ is basically a superstar around here so I would love any advice you have on working with her. If you have any thoughts on what I could do differently or even what might be causing those clashes, I’d really appreciate your insight.”

      But I would do it with a non-manager, someone trusted, and someone in a specifically mentoring capacity.

      1. Natasha*

        I had a similar situation (less so BEC, but also stressful). I think your plan to focus on another group makes sense, but you also could try saying to your boss another version of Christy’s comment above, “I feel like there’s a communication gap between me and ____. Can you give me advice on how to approach projects with her?” I did the latter, and it turned out that I was going into far too much detail with a person more focused on the higher level approach.

        1. bridget (better screen name to follow)*

          Part of the problem is I think this is just How She Is, and the appropriate way to work for her is to Suck It Up and Deal. I’m really not sure I can get actionable advice to make the relationship better. And if there is, I think it would be really difficult and unhappy-making. I’d really much rather just get the &*$^ out of her practice group than get better at handling her. It’s been 8 months of my really trying to get along with her and it’s just not working.

          1. bridget (better screen name to follow)*

            That said, I do recognize that the approach you and Christy suggested is much more professional and mature than “I just can’t deal anymore, get me away from her.” So I think at lunch I’m going to approach it as 1) after the cases I’m already staffed on wrap up, I would like to focus exclusively on Different Practice Group; 2) in the meantime, I find it challenging to work for ______ and am wondering if you have any advice for how to make the working relationship more smooth.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I think the purpose of mentioning it / asking for advice isn’t actually about getting along with her or developing strategies. It’s a subtle signal to the powers that be that this superstar is maybe not so super, and they may want to start paying closer attention. When combined with Natasha’s comment re: practice groups, it might make it smoother for you to move outside of projects involving that associate.

            (Would you stay in the practice group if you didn’t have to interact with her?)

            1. bridget (better screen name to follow)*

              Her practice group is really great in terms of awesome exit opportunities and it’s really easy to hit billable hours targets (my preferred practice area is a little more sporadic and prone to stressful slow periods). But no, I don’t find it particularly scintillating. I’d rather be working in other practice groups anyway when it comes to substance. I have just been giving her practice area a fair try because it’s really busy and if I liked it, it would be good for my career trajectory to specialize in it.

    2. Mr. Demeanor*

      I do sympathize with you – I worked in a similar situation years ago and if I allowed myself I could still get upset over that person’s behavior and work style. I think it’s better to keep it positive – rather than saying you don’t want to work in group X, say you’d like to work in Group Y or Z because because you feel more supported, have similar styles of working, like the specialty, or perform better in those circumstances (or whatever your reasons). Happy Friday!

    3. Busytrap*

      Oof, no real advice, just commiseration. I had a similar situation, and honestly, I decided to leave the firm and go in-house when the opportunity arose rather than stick it out somewhere where the firm superstar (who was a horrendous see-you-next-Tuesday to work with) had the power to decide not only whether I got to work on the projects I wanted to work on, but also eventually whether I’d make partner in that group. She basically blocked out from her part of our group (she did a subset within a larger practice group) anyone she thought might one day want to have kids. Not sure how I ended up in that group, but there you have it. Therefore, she went out of her way to make my life miserable and to block me from good projects, no matter what I did.

      When I started talking with a partner of another practice group about leaving, he did offer to take me over to his team, and that went really well as a conversation — by that point, though, I had one foot out the door and could see a world where I didn’t have to work with her. But I feel you – this is a tough one. :(

      1. bridget (better screen name to follow)*

        “power to decide not only whether I got to work on the projects I wanted to work on”

        UGH. YES. Technically, she has no authority to rearrange my workload. Earlier this week, she gave me a whole slew of not-urgent housekeeping requests (updating trackers, downloading and cataloging documents, stuff like that). I said “ok, but I have urgent deadline for Matter Y and so will get to this on Friday; if for some reason that doesn’t work let me know and I will reshuffle.” I am in charge of managing my own workload, and if I have an issue, there is a designated partner who is tasked with helping me broker negotiations between competing projects. Instead of explaining to me whether or why her request was particularly urgent (really don’t think it was), she just went to my supervisor for Matter Y directly and renegotiated my time. I got a call from the supervisor in Matter Y that I should de-prioritize that work (which I’m much more interested in) in favor of Difficult Associate’s projects.

        Fair or not, I was pretty furious that she took it upon herself to manage my workload for me, instead of telling me directly that her stuff did indeed need to be done today for Reasons, and yes I should reshuffle (which I would have done).

        1. Beezus*

          I work with someone like that. Avoid giving her specifics on your priorities. “Based on the workload and deadlines I’m dealing with now, I think it’ll be Friday before I get to this – does that work for you, or do I need to prioritize it differently?” If you don’t want her taking it out of your hands, don’t give her enough information to do so. If she can, she will.

      2. Anon Lawyer*

        I also had almost this same situation when I was at a large law firm. She was the associate rep (our pipeline to issues at the ExCom level), head of the summer program, etc. I can’t count the number of times she made me break down in tears in the office. I did not really have the option of switching practice groups, and we worked cross-practice groups on various projects, so I would have been stuck with her anyway. I left to go to a small boutique and never looked back.

        You will always find people in law firms (partners and associates) who think THEIR work is the most important and should be prioritized above all else, no matter what other items you’re working on. The only effective solution I have found is to make sure you only have one project with those folks at any different time and to make sure you have sufficient support (up or down or both, seniority-wise) to cover urgent matters if they deem theirs more important. My other suggestion is to know that there are a lot of lawyers out there who think their way is the only way to do something. That’s just not true, and I was able to gain a lot of confidence and serenity in my own practice once I found a firm that lets its attorneys practice law how they see fit (without letting malpractice occur, of course). Things can get better at the right firm; I’m out almost 20 years and am a partner at a great firm today.

        1. bridget (better screen name to follow)*

          At the very least, it’s good to hear this is a relatively common experience.

          Almost everyone else at my firm is GREAT about letting me do my work as I see fit, and it’s great to work autonomously. So I really harbor hope that I can make that happen at my current firm by switching practice groups. She’s currently out on vacation, and my life is night and day better.

    4. Decima Dewey*

      More commiseration, I’m afraid. I’m at that stage with my boss, and she’s being transferred. I’ll be taking over for her in a couple of weeks. Right now she’s “tying up loose ends”, which has consisted of such things as getting things just the way she wants. She’s insisted on giving me books to keep at my desk for story time, which are going to be reshelved when I take over. Boss doesn’t seem to realize that I could call Lucinda at her branch and ask how to contact her performer for Drag Queen Story Hour (the kids love it), or for her notes on an Aleister Crowley story hour. So I just agree and put in my two cents on such vital issues as whether or not to rehang two posters that fell down.

  16. Language manners*

    People in multilingual workplaces, what’s the etiquette when the language of a conversation switches to one you don’t speak? I work in an English office in an English city in Canada, with a 50/50 mix of Canadians (who speak French to some degree) and immigrants (who don’t). It’s a small office where we all eat together, but lately the lunch conversation has switched to French frequently, meaning the non-Canadians are left out. What’s the polite thing to do in this situation? (Most of us are trying to learn French, but it’s slow going).

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would probably just smile and listen without understanding. That’s what I’ve done in the past (at least in social settings). It’s not really a bad thing unless they’re having work-related discussions and leaving you out.

    2. katamia*

      Try to sit near other non-French-speaking colleagues so you can still talk to someone when the conversation turns? :P

      Depending on the culture/your relationship with these people, a friendly “Hey, not all of us speak French here!” might work, although you’ll probably have to keep reminding them for awhile if not forever.

    3. Not Karen*

      Do the Canadians know not everyone in the office is bilingual? When I was in grad school in Canada, I had people tell me multiple times “I keep forgetting you’re not Canadian.”

      If they know and are speaking in “French” anyway, then that’s just rude…

    4. Amber Rose*

      We have two fluent speakers of Spanish and two workers from Nigeria, who speak a language that I’m not sure what it is. We also have two brothers that speak Chinese.

      It’s not that they’re trying to leave anyone out, it’s just how it goes. If you’re trying to learn, you could probably ask about certain words from time to time, or if you want to converse then you could just speak to them in English. Otherwise I’d just ignore it.

    5. Not in US*

      I would find it really rude – but I’m not sure if I would say anything. If I did, I might try a gentle reminder that not everyone at the table is fluent in French so it would be appreciated if they would keep it in English. The other option might be to ask them to speak slower – the rational here is if you’re trying to learn French, exposure is really helpful but the speed people speak can really impact how well others follow.

    6. Shiara*

      If you’ve got a relatively close relationship with one or more of the Canadians, approaching them individually and asking if they’d mind helping you nudge the friendly conversation back into English when it strays to French might work better than trying to tackle the group dynamic head on.

      Using the conversation to try to improve your French could also be useful as you’ll either get practice in, or make it easier for them to go back to English. But it would also be fine to just start up a side conversation in English and ignore the conversation you can’t join.

      Unless you have a particular reason to think otherwise, I would encourage you to try not to take it personally. It’s pretty inconsiderate, but when you’re relaxing and unwinding it can be pretty easy to language shift, particularly if you’re talking about something that your brain contextualises in another language.

    7. Jen RO*

      Smile and nod and learn French.

      It’s difficult to speak a foreign language, even when you are fluent, and people probably feel the need to relax at lunch. I live in a non-English speaking country, but I speak English very well… and it’s still so, so much easier to speak my native language. I’ve had to speak English non-stop during work travel and it was exhausting (and I repeat, I am very confortable in English and I speak it at a near-native level).

      It would be polite of them to speak the common language all the time, but considering it’s only happening at lunch, I would drop it.

      1. Lora*

        I feel your pain. I can speak a couple of languages fluently, and a few more well enough to get by conversationally, but not when it’s been a long day or I’m upset about something. And Spanish and Italian are close enough that I mix them up routinely – questo and esta, and I almost never remember to say tener instead of avere. On my last vacation the bed and breakfast owner and I had three languages in common but what we spoke over morning coffee depended on who was the most tired. Plus, there’s some things that are just easier to say in a particular language, or you associate them with one language more. There’s a great French word in my field which technically just means “piping” but it’s used to mean “all the plumbing, but not the tanks or pumps, associated with one particular piece of equipment” and it’s just easier to say Tuyauterie than a whole sentence.

        Re: the OP’s question, best to just ignore it and talk to the English speakers.

        1. Jen RO*

          I know what you mean about French and Italian – in my case, it’s French and Spanish. I can never remember the correct word for “to speak”! I’ve been known to say “Je veux hablar avec toi”…

      2. Hrovitnir*

        Yes. I am sadly monolingual, but you can tell it’s *tiring* speaking in your non-native tongue all the time! I’m currently in Sweden where most people’s English is amazing, and as I’m in a lab the common language is English. But people still speak Swedish for some topics at fika because it’s easier and more comfortable. (And the speeches at the department dinner were in Swedish. My understanding was far inadequate. :P) I have a German friend back home who was having a hard time when she first moved, and she was almost crying saying she just doesn’t feel like *herself* in English, even though to me it’s perfect!

        1. Jen RO*

          That last part is so true! I really do feel different when I speak a foreign language and I sometimes wonder how this influences my relationships…

    8. Admin of Sys*

      If you’re trying to learn French, I feel like it’s certainly appropriate to interrupt and ask them to speak more slowly, since you’re trying to learn. Maybe “If you’re going to speak french, could you please speak more slowly so those of us that are still learning can keep up?” Then, if it’s just casual conversation, they can switch back to English, and if they stay in French, they’ll hopefully try to loop you in and help with the language acquisition.
      (It’s entirely possible it’s not intentional. I worked in Montreal for a month and had to constinly remind coworkers that I wasn’t fluent, because they were so used to being able to switch languages whenever. )

      1. Une Quebecoise*

        As a Montreal native, just wanted to second the comment that it might not be intentional. Given that so many people speak both French and English, it is pretty common to switch back and forth without giving it a lot of thought. For English-only speaking colleagues, sometimes the first clue that I picked the wrong language is their confused look as a response my questions.
        Unless there is vital work information that you’re missing, try to look at it as an advantage. Being surrounded by conversations in French is a great way to accelerate the learning process.

    9. Language Lover*

      If you’re trying to learn French–listen. listen. listen. Maybe ask a co-worker who speaks French to help give you bullet points so you’ll get the context but immersion is a great learning tool.

      You say they speak French “to some degree.” I can see why people having lunch would prefer to speak a more native language. So if they’re from Quebec City, French might be a way for them to “shut off their brains” during a break. But if they’re not from an area of Canada where French is spoken predominantly, then it is a little bit rude because it seems deliberate. I speak French “to some degree” and could hold a conversation in it but it wouldn’t be the first language I’d turn to on a break.

    10. skunklet*

      If you weren’t in Canada, I wouldn’t respond, b/c the norms would apply – but remember, this is Canada, where 22 yrs ago, the province of Quebec almost voted to secede from the country, in part, over language issues…. so I’d tread very carefully, b/c the entire language issue in Canada can be a significant sore spot (on both sides). And ftr, French speakers in Canada are Canadians as well, just considered French Canadians…

      1. Aealias*

        I second the tread-carefully. Language is so frought partly because it’s only been 50 years or so since you couldn’t speak French in a white-collar workplace in Quebec. The spectre of language-suppression is still really strong for some people.
        Which isn’t to say they’re language-switching on purpose! It’s so relaxing to just settle into your own language on your downtime, it’s usually unconscious. And most people are perfectly happy to switch back politely when they realize some people are being excluded. Just… be tactful when you redirect francophones to English.

    11. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I think it depends on whether or not you were part of the lunch conversation to begin with.

      If people were already talking and you walked into a conversation, I would recommend pleasantly smiling hello and ignoring the French. If you’re in the process of learning French and think they’d normally be ok with you jumping into their conversation, you could ask them to slow down so that you can improve your French listening comprehension. If you’re part of the group and they start switching to French mid-way, it’s ok to gently (and without a whiff of indignation/affront!) ask if they could switch back so you can continue to participate.

      But generally, I would not complain or make an issue of the fact that others are speaking French. First, because it’s one of Canada’s two official languages, and there’s no requirement/expectation that people should only speak English when they’re in an “English office in an English city” when the entire country is technically fair game for French. Second, because it’s ok for people to speak in their native language to one another, and it’s not necessary/required for everyone to be able to participate in everyone else’s non-business-related conversations.

      It would be different if this were having a significant effect on the ability to work together or to access and develop professional networks/opportunities. You can also, of course, gently ask folks to consider inclusion/exclusion in light of your office’s 50/50 composition. But if there’s any indication of entitlement or frustration, folks are more likely to roll their eyes at your request.

    12. BRR*

      I work in a multilingual office and think there are times when you can ask if they can switch to English. Depending on how close you are I can see the situation being “I forgot sorry, no problem” but for me I’m not super close to a lot of my coworkers and switching languages while not working seems like a big ask. Something I have done in situations like this is to be near someone who is very considerate and knows that I only speak English and translates for me.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      I agree with folks who say use it as a learning experience. It’s okay to ask them to slow down a little if they want to include you.

      I learned the hard way not to use ANY of my limited French when speaking to clients in Montreal at OldExjob; the second I said “Bonjour,” they assumed I spoke the language and away they went. I had to interrupt and tell them I don’t actually know that much French! Same thing with Spanish and our client in Puerto Rico, haha. I would have loved to improve my skills in both languages, but I just didn’t talk to them enough.

    14. nonegiven*

      If I was involved in a conversation in English and it suddenly switched languages, I’d say, “I’m sorry, I didn’t understand that.” If they kept it up, I’d leave.

      I’d look for a table speaking English or maybe a table of people who are trying to learn French and converse in both so everyone can practice a little and still know what the heck is being said.

    15. Candy*

      Considering French is one of Canada’s official languages, you can’t really tell someone in Canada not to speak it, especially not on their own time (lunch break). If it’s a primarily English-speaking office and they’re speaking English while they’re working (when they aren’t on their lunch break) I’d leave it alone.

      1. Candy*

        Actually, now that I think about it, I’d leave it alone regardless of which language they were speaking — English, French, Russian, Tagalog, whatever. People should be free to spend their lunch breaks speaking whatever language they’re comfortable with. This may break the lunch group off into splinters, but that’s fine. It’s their time to do what they want with it.

  17. Your Weird Uncle*

    So, I posted last week about going in to see my manager about changing my title to be equal to annoying coworker, and updated that she’d readily agreed and also said she’d look into changing my pay grade to also be equivalent. Unfortunately, due to the tier I was hired on, we can’t upgrade my pay grade (sadly).

    However, the next day she called me into her office and said that she thinks I should apply for her job, as she’s retiring (tomorrow!). It was a surprise, and I had to think about it….but heck yes, I’ve decided to go for it! Since then, one other colleague has come in on the sly and hinted that she thought I’d be really good at it and should apply, too!

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Thanks everyone! I’m taking a quiet weekend and working on my cover letter and resume (and of course going quite thoroughly through the archives here).

        If I get the interview, it will be an interesting one: annoying coworker is on the interview panel, and I doubt is going to be very pleased about the opportunity to have me supervise her.

    7. Anono-me*

      Please ask your manager to change your title anyway. You never know what is going to happen and you don’t want the title inequality to continue after your manager leaves and have to worry about convincing the new manager to fix it.

      Good luck.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Yep, we did that! I smile every time I look at my new email signature. Thanks for the advice!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Wow, what a turn around on that story. Best wishes. It’s nice to have the boss’ support.

  18. AdAgencyChick*

    My team is in hiring mode right now, so I’m interviewing a lot of candidates and am running into something I’ve never seen before:

    Younger/very junior candidates will come in and tell me that they’ve Googled me and OMG they know X, Y, and Z about me and that’s so cool!!!! I’m not talking “I looked at your LinkedIn profile and I see you worked on ABC client, that’s really interesting” — I’m talking “I found your Twitter feed/this non-work-related news article about you/etc. and wow it’s so cool that [spiel about my hobbies]!”

    I mean, I guess I can’t expect that people are *not* going to Google their interviewers. But it weirds me out that the first thing I hear from a candidate is all the non-work information they now know about me!

    I don’t think it’s an age thing — I think it’s entirely a lack of experience/knowledge of office norms thing. But this is weird, right? Colleges, please start telling your soon-to-be-grads not to do this. :/

    1. Mouse*

      Interesting! I thought it was good to do this- personal connection and all that. Would you find it less off-putting if it wasn’t the first thing they talked about? Maybe if it came up in conversation?

      2. Allison*

        My co-op advisor told us to do something similar, he said we should have a list of hobbies on our resume, so if an interviewer happens to share one of them, it’ll help me connect with them and maybe give me a boost over my equally qualified fellow candidates.

        In hindsight, it’s not a good idea. It takes up space on your resume and makes you look out of touch with professional norms. Besides, it could only work with hobbies that are interesting but not potentially off-putting.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        This is so creepy! You can of course Google someone, but isn’t the first rule of “social media research” that you don’t tell the person you’re researching that you Googled them?? Just write that you’re interested in AdAgencyChick’s work with Client A (and connect it to why you’re applying for the job), don’t tell her you Google-stalked her to figure out her client list! And if the goal is simply to say “I have this hobby, too!” then it should not be in your cover letter.

      4. Jaydee*

        You Google them, sure. But you don’t *tell them* you Googled them! You tuck the information away in your brain and use it when it makes sense in a totally non-creepy way.

        Example: Google reveals that your interviewer plays soccer. You coach your daughter’s soccer team. In addition to workplace examples, toss in a soccer coaching example when asked about a conflict you recently resolved or how you manage a team with varying skills and abilities or whatever. You’ve opened the door for your interviewer to say “Oh, you coach youth soccer? I play in the city rec league!” You don’t then say “Yeah, I know, I totally Googled you over the weekend and found out all sorts of stuff, by the way how’s it going housebreaking your new puppy?” You say, “Awesome, what position do you play?” And if she says nothing about soccer and just moves on to her next question for you, then that’s the end of the soccer talk.

        1. Mouse*

          Okay, see, this is what I was thinking. I spent a lot of time as a ballet dancer, and I was the Artistic Director of a group in college. As I recently graduated, I use that a lot in interviews for the “tell me about a time when…” question. But I’m more likely to go into more detail about it if I know the interview is/was a dancer at some point (which is more common than you’d think!).

          I wasn’t thinking of saying “I saw that you’re a dancer! Me too!” I just meant that if you can make it come up in conversation, it might make you more memorable/personable.

    2. Temperance*

      Oh that’s so strange. I don’t like it at all. I wouldn’t want a candidate to be all “hey temperance, let’s talk about STAR TREK” or soccer. Please ask me about my work / membership on professional associations, but it’s such an overstep on a personal level.

    4. Alex*

      I can see doing “research” on a potential manager, but that’s not something I would bring up. More something you would use to determine if it’s someone you would want to work with.

    5. Here we go again*

      I think it is totally fine to Google your interviewer, but you have to bring up any information you find ORGANICALLY so that you can build rapport. What they are saying and doing is just creepy.

      1. GeorgiaB*

        I had a candidate do this the right way this week. He is about to finish a degree at my alma mater and in the normal course of the conversation asked how long it had been since I had been back to visit college town. It let me know he had done some background without feeling at all creepy or out of place.

    6. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Yeah but – aren’t YOU Googling THEM??????????

      If not, you should be.

    7. fposte*

      I think it’s fine for them to do, but I wouldn’t advise them to start out with that in conversation.

    8. Hrovitnir*

      Man, I find a lot of these stories about people new to the workforce so bizarre. I understand it’s lack of experience, I’m just surprised so many people can’t extrapolate from their experience with other human beings? I guess a million contradictory messages don’t help.

      Anyway I agree with the people saying Googling is fine, knowing shared hobbies for relationship building can even work, but you’ve gotta work that in naturally. And almost certainly not in the interview, since it’s unlikely to come up organically.

      Also I appreciate you don’t Google candidates beyond professionally relevant things. It’s something I accept as the new reality, but I find it so intrusive and so easily problematic.

    9. Tomato Frog*

      It’s maybe tiresome and tactless and certainly not an awesome way to start a professional conversation, but the fact that they’re being transparent about heads off any creepiness, as far as I’m concerned. Creepy is if they find out you skydive from your fourth page of Google results and then casually work skydiving into the discussion and act surprised when you mention you skydive.

      1. Jaydee*

        I don’t think the transparency heads off the creepiness. I think the transparency is what makes it creepy. It shows a lack of awareness of social and professional norms.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          I think of creepy as meaning in some way threatening or insidious, rather than just socially awkward.

    10. CheeryO*

      Yeah, it’s weird. I once found and watched my interviewer’s wedding video on the internet, but I definitely did not bring it up in conversation. (And yes, I felt creepy about it, but it was right there on the first page of Google results. It was a really lovely video!)

    11. Jesca*

      I have actually SEEN this advice on other career advice forums (I’m calling out Forbes here!). I could never imagine how I would ever bring up that I researched my hiring manager unless it was something that would come up connected to a professional search. I mean yeah I have googled hiring managers, but I would not be likely to just outright admit that!

      It is weird, but that advice is out there. And when young naïve new college grads land on it, this is the outcome!

  19. TotesMaGoats*

    Update on job situation for my work BFF from OldJob.

    She got the offer!!! So good vibes for everyone else hoping to hear back.

  20. BadPlanning*

    Fun times from converting to an open workspace
    I was on the committee that met with the architects designing our new space (at least we paid for a design and didn’t just toss something together). They were very keen on having all these nooks and crannies where we could be all mobile and creative and work everywhere. We kept telling them that we need a good desk area where we could have multiple monitors, a laptop docking station, full mouse, full keyboard. All adjustable.
    We were a bit mutually frustrated. The designers thought we were rejecting the nice things they were trying to give us. We want good ergonomics because we’re on the computer nearly all day.
    After moving in to the workspace, work had a company come in a do a health/safety type review. One of the review comments was that everyone in the workspace should get a docking station and work primary on a full keyboard/mouse/monitor and not doing their daily work on a laptop.

    1. fposte*

      Heh. I know this is eternal in librarianship–architects love to do pretty things that make work much, much harder.

      1. Hillary*

        Oh my yes. The neighborhood library has these horrible hollow floors that echo when you walk on them, much less when a kid runs on them. My BFF won’t have her girl scout meetings there because kids are kids and they’re absurdly loud.

        1. WellRed*

          My Local library branch underwent a huge renovation. Unfortunately, they knocked out a few walls so now the noise from the children’s section can be heard all around. And, there are a lot fewer books. Grrr.

          1. Hrovitnir*

            Noooo. :( We had a renovation at our city hospital that resulted in less beds for an already overtaxed hospital. But it looks pretty! -_-

            To be fair, the new buildings are better for earthquakes and they’re slowly fixing up the others, and I think they got some new equipment. But. Less beds.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Hah, that reminds me of the time we got a brand new Coke machine in a cafeteria where I worked and the Coke folks came along to orient us (it was a test machine). It had two tiers of cans; they were so chuffed about this–“You can stock twice as much product!” When I politely pointed out that in order to fill the slots behind, I would have to first empty the slots in front and it would take me twice as long, they got really mad at me.

      3. PlainJane*

        At my last job, in a small-ish research library, the architect wanted to put staff offices in a glassed-in pod in the center of the building. His reasoning? He wanted library users to be able to see what goes on behind the scenes. We the staff would have been literally on display. Thank goodness that project never got funded.

      4. Electron Wisperer*

        Oh, architects/gods (The difference is that God only thinks he is an architect..).

        The trick, particularly with arts buildings is to make sure you have one of the operations minions sign off on **ANY** drawing before it goes to the contractor.

        They are very good at drawing pretty buildings with absolutely no thought to things like access from the loading dock to the stage for big things (Just slightly important), or making sure that there is an easy route from stage left to stage right, or (Special favourite) that there are sufficient toilets for the interval rush, and that the number of cubicles in the female side equals the number of cubicles PLUS urinals on the male side..

        The fact that the Board (Who typically do not work in the space) loves the pretty building is nice and all, but you really need someone signing off (or refusing to sign off) who spends their days doing build and break, cleaning and servicing the plant, it is an utterly different perspective.

        I have been that minion, and there is a firm of architects who will not talk to me (The feeling is mutual).

    2. zora*

      Oy.
      We have had similar issues at our workplace, but I wasn’t part of the build of the new open office space in the other city, I wonder if they had the same experience.

      This seems like it should be a lesson to bring the health/safety people into the process BEFORE the build is done, right?? I mean, why does it make sense to do that after the fact and spend even more money retrofitting things?? Sigh.

      In our office, we have the desks and as the admin I make sure everyone has monitors, keyboards, etc to have really useful setups. But the thing we are struggling with is everyone being on multiple phone calls all day. Our desks are too tight to have everyone on the phone at the same time, and there are only 4 phone booths per 100+ people on each floor. If I was involved in developing a new space, I would increase that proportion dramatically.

  21. Fabulous*

    Those of you who live in the country and have a longer commute to work… how do you like it? Do you have kids and how does it affect them?

    I travel about 25-30 minutes (20 miles) right now, and rarely have had more than an hour on the road in past jobs (excluding extraneous circumstances such as weather, accidents, etc.) Thinking of moving to a place in the country where I’d have to drive 60-90 minutes (60-70 miles) to work in a metro area. Have any of you made that transition?

    1. Discordia Angel Jones*

      Honestly… my commute is currently 75-90 minutes and I HATE it.

      I do currently, however, have to use public transport, and that makes it much worse. I’ve driven that sort of commute in the past, however, and would warn you not to underestimate how tiring a 3 hour round trip is on a daily basis (particularly if you work long hours).

      You’ve really got to be in a place where the pros of living there make it worthwhile. 60-90 minutes is a long commute (even for me, living in the city of long commutes).

    2. Temperance*

      For a while, Booth was driving from our suburb out to the country for work. A 3-hr/day commute is really, really exhausting … and that’s not even including the inevitable traffic accidents that will slow you down, weather-related issues, etc. We’re in Pennsylvania, so he missed a lot of work that first winter due to heavy snows, rainstorms, etc.

      I wouldn’t recommend it. We don’t have kids, and it was difficult.

    3. anna green*

      I’ve done both and I think a lot of it depends on your work hours and the area you live in. I’ve had the 15 minute commute when I could pick up my kids from daycare at 4:15 and now I do over an hour commute where I pick them up at 5:30. They really don’t know the difference, so thats not too bad. If the extra commute time means you won’t be getting home until way later or leaving extremely early and you are sacrificing significant time with the kids, I don’t know if I would want that. It also depends on other pros for moving farther away, are schools better, quality of life, etc. I am actually currently looking for a new job that’s closer because the commute is wearing on me. 3 hours a day in the car is a lot! I also don’t like being that far away from them during the day if they get sick at school, etc. That’s probably the biggest worry I have. Is there someone else nearby that could help in that case? But if your job is flexible then it might not be so bad. Could you telecommute sometimes? Sorry, I am no help :). It’s a tough decision.

      1. Fabulous*

        Thankfully I don’t currently have kids that would need to deal with the situation right now – but I like to think ahead. I appreciate all the things you mentioned.It’s definitely a lot to think about!

    4. Nisie*

      Yes. I married a man who owned a house out in bfe. The 180 minutes you drive you never get back. I worked 9 hours, have 2 kids who I feel get the dregs of my energy.

      We are moving to the city next month- where we walk or ride bikes to nearly everything. I’m so looking forward to it.

      1. Fabulous*

        That’s the situation I’ll be in within the next year, except we both have houses. He doesn’t want to move in with me because he works 12-hour shifts and it’d be nearly an hour commute for him. I work 8 hours, but it’d be a longer commute for me. Thankfully, either way we do it, it’ll only be a temporary situation before we can buy a new house of our own!

    5. ZSD*

      My dad’s commute was about an hour each way (50 miles) for the whole time I was growing up. I feel like I missed out on spending time with him, and all that time driving was hard on his body. Also, it kept him from being able to get enough sleep. He had to get up really early in the morning, and for much of the year, he wasn’t getting home until it was dark again.
      I guess you should ask yourself, “How much time to enjoy the country living would I have?”
      I’m not saying you shouldn’t do this; I just want to present some possible struggles.
      Are there any jobs in your field closer to this country area you want to live in?

    6. Temperance*

      Also, chiming in from the perspective as a kid who grew up in a rural area: the city and the suburbs have so much more to offer kids.

      1. Fabulous*

        Oh I know, I grew up in a small town with nothing around it. They finally got a stoplight and a McDonald’s when I was in high school!

    7. Alex*

      I didn’t live in the country, but I used to commute from one city to another. It was not fun, even when I took naps on the bus. It just adds time to your day that you can’t really do anything. I especially hated it during winter when the days were short and I felt like I was always tired from sitting/being in the dark. Also knowing that if there’s an emergency or something comes up and you have to leave suddenly, it’s a real inconvenience to be far away.

    8. KR*

      My father in law works in a major city and lives in a rural area. He has an hour+ commute. One thing my husband and his family has noticed is that his father is noticeably a lot less stressed on days he can work from home and a lot more stressed on days he hits a lot of traffic, so you may want to look for employers that allow some working from home especially in bad weather, when you’re feeling under the weather, and heavy traffic days. He also puts a lot of miles on their vehicles so you will need a good, reliable vehicle that you actively enjoy being in and driving. Finally, he invests in pod casts and audio books. For him, he listens to sermons since he used to be a pastor and is very religious. When I used to drive a lot I would listen to NPR a lot. Good luck!

      1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        DO NOT DO IT!! You’ll hate it!! I did it for three years and that was enough for me. I took a pay cut and job closer to home. Im much happier now with a 20 minute commute

    9. Turquoise Cow*

      My current commute ranges from 45 minutes to just over an hour, with the commute home being much more likely to be lengthened.

      On the one hand, it sucks. But it is nice to be able to decompress a little after work and have some alone time. If you’re easily frustrated by traffic (and that’s an issue for your commute, as opposed to just distance causing the time), maybe it’s not a great idea. But I’ve started listening to podcasts while on my commute, and having that to distract me a little from the fact that I haven’t gone more than 5 miles an hour for the last 20 minutes help.

      I don’t have kids, so I can’t say anything about that, but it is kind of exhausting to come home and have that much less free time to be productive or relax or whatever. The job is temporary though. If it was offered to me as a long-term thing, I might have said no, but I figured I could deal with it for ~6 months.

      Also, I’ve never had a mass transit commute. I sort of wish I did, but sort of wish I didn’t.

    10. Beancounter Eric*

      Sorry if I ramble a bit…

      No kids, and have been driving an hour each way to work/school for most of 30 years. For the past 17 or so years – 20 to 25 miles and 45 min to one hour each way.

      A few thoughts –
      a) if you are driving in any sort of traffic, think 2 hours for 60-70 miles…my average speed in ATL suburbs is 25 MPH, BUT we have 8th worst traffic on the planet. Your location may have smoother flowing traffic.
      b) Finite number of hours in a day – X hours in a day, and you are spending Y commuting….this reduces time available for activities A, B & C. YOU have to make the choice re. value.
      c) Vehicle cost – Cost for fuel, maintenance will add up – again, value judgment you have to make.

    11. Busytrap*

      I’ve actually been doing this for almost five years now. I took a position with a great company in a rural spot, and my husband still works in the city. We live in a rural spot as the halfway point, and we LOVE where we live. Honestly, that makes all the difference, because I’m not going to lie – the commute stinks (65mi each way, takes me about 1 hr 20min). But ohmygoodness, I never want to live anywhere other than where we are now because we have great friends here, and while it’s rural, it’s on the water and beautiful and 20 min from a medium sized city (just not the major city my husband works in).

      If you decide to go this route, podcasts are your friend. I’m now pretty much on autopilot when I’m driving in; I barely realize I’m in the car for as long as I am.

      As for how to handle with kids, I don’t currently have any good feedback, as I’m expecting the arrival of kiddo number 1. It’s been weighing pretty heavily on my mind though, and I literally broke down in tears yesterday (so not professional, but she teared up with me?) when my boss told that she would completely understand if I wanted a more flexible schedule because it’s tough to have both parents be that far away from the kiddos, and she wanted me to be happy at the company long term so she wanted me to think on a good plan that would work for me. I plan to propose 1-2 days/week remote (I have a team to manage and need some facetime at the office with the PTB, so there’s no way I would want to go full-time remote anytime soon). Do you have that option at all, or do you have to go in every day?

    12. Mischa*

      I was going to commute 38 miles (45 minutes – 1 hour, depending on traffic) from my large midwestern city to my grad program, but I tested out the commute for a couple of days…and I’m so glad I did. It was murder. It’s not the boredom, but I hate having so much of my day wasted, sitting in a car. A bus or train would be slightly more tolerable, but that’s not available in my area. My solution was to get an apartment out in the city where my grad program is located. Obviously, not everyone can do this, but for me the time wasted far outweighed the financial burden of moving and renting an apartment. (I live in a low cost of living area, so rent is absurdly cheap. Plus, I get to move out of my parents’ house.)

      Now, to contrast that — I know plenty of people who live in my grad school city and commute to large midwestern city. They don’t mind it at all.

      1. Jaydee*

        I am your opposite. (Like, seriously, based on the specificity of the numbers you cited, I think I might live in the town where you go to school and work in your large midwestern city.) I have been commuting for over 10 years now. In my experience it’s not that people don’t mind the commute at all. It’s just that the trade-offs are worth it. My job is in the big city and I don’t want to leave it for just anything. My husband could work anywhere but has no desire to live or work in the larger city or its suburbs. We both love where we live. And so I drive.

        Honestly, there are zero days where I like my commute. There are days I hate it (ice storms, traffic accidents that invariably happen when I’m in a hurry to pick my son up from daycare) and days I don’t hate it (nice weather, good traffic flow, an interesting podcast to listen to, and a nice cup of coffee). But if I didn’t have to commute my life would improve measurably.

        1. Mischa*

          I don’t want to out you but now I’m so curious!

          I totally agree about the trade offs. The highways are currently a disaster, and the bus would double the commute. Nope.

    13. Red*

      I’ve done that. I don’t have kids, I lived with my grandparents at the time. For the first year, I loved the alone time at the beginning and end of the day, but then it started to wear on me.

    14. Ghost Town*

      I’m in favor of reducing a commute and would not recommend a 60-70 mile commute. It sounds like a good amount of your commute would be on a highway or interstate, so will move at a decent clip. But… for the portions that aren’t or for the times when there is a back up due to accidents, weather, or a high volume of cars, it can be infuriating.

      You are talking about 2-3 hours a day (or 10-15 hours a week) on the road, in your car. Your work day balloons from 8/9 hours to 10/12 hours. For me, this wouldn’t be something I could do w/o an end-date set (at least a goal of moving houses or jobs w/in a specified time frame).

      My husband and I both work for a university in a small town in the US. We just sold our house the next county over (house was in the county seat of that county, and the town had a whopping population of 2,217) and are buying a house in the university town. Our commute was about 30-45 minutes, to go 20 miles. Not bad when compared to my in-laws in Atlanta, who can take 90 minutes to 2 hours to go that far. But it was a long commute for us and there was essentially one direct route from home to work. If that state road was backed up for any reason, you were essentially stuck (unless you knew about it at one of a handful of places where you could go way out of the way to get around it). And, to be honest, a state road that is heavily traveled by people who go between the two towns regularly meant that people were often going way over the speed limit and accidents were frequent.

      Think about how much of your life will be in the metro area versus your home area. For us, the advantages of living there were diminishing as the disadvantages were growing (working + going to school + daycare + appointments in university town).

    15. Myrin*

      I had a two-hours-in-total commute (by train) for the past six-ish years and honestly, while I sometimes think it would be more practical to live closer to the city, I ultimately don’t mind it. That’s a big part of my personality, though, there’s a lot of stuff I just don’t care about.

      I enjoy riding the train and not needing to pay attention the way I’d have to if I drove myself and how I can do all kinds of other stuff (sleep, read, some work stuff that I always kind of push around and never really get to is suddenly weirdly easy to do once I’m on the train, etc.).

      Also, which is probably a big factor, I could never live in a city. I’m a country person through-and-through, I don’t need any kind of “excitement” that you can find in the city, and I’m very nature-y, so the commute is just a think I have/had to do to get to live where I want.

      I don’t have kids, so I can’t really speak to that. I’d assume I’d feel a bit different then but honestly, that’s a bridge I (even mentally) cross when I get to it.

    16. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      There’s some scientific/psychological research that suggests that once you have to commute more than 45 minutes, your mood crashes and your frustration/stress starts rising.

      I don’t think a 60-90 minute commute is worth it, if you’re doing it every day and are driving (I feel differently if you’re on a train and don’t get motion sickness). I used to commute 75-90 minutes to work, in addition to daytime driving to see clients. I started to develop low-back problems, my non-driving leg developed “movie theater knee,” the rattling from the steering wheel began to cause nerve damage in my forearms, and I would be exhausted/grouchy by the time I got home. I had to spend a lot more time in the gym and doing yoga/stretching just to counteract the negative effect of driving. There’s also a lot of wear and tear on your car (i.e. $), and oftentimes parking, etc., is more expensive and harder to find in the city ($$$).

      Losing all that time and money was not worth it to me. For the last 5 years, I’ve only worked at places where my commute was under 35 minutes (by public transit or car), and it has made a tremendous (positive) difference. I still have to travel far to see clients, but I don’t have to do it every day, and it’s not on top of a hellacious 3-hour roundtrip commute.

    17. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’m actually getting ready to post a related question, but I live about 30 minutes from the nearest interstate, and at least 10 more minutes to anywhere from there, and have commuted that distance to work. It was awful. Like other commenters have said, you never get that time back.

    18. Carin*

      I commute from corn fields to the edge of a minor city, and I love it. I choose to take the longer rural route rather than the direct highway route because city driving makes me anxious. My commute is long, but it’s full of beautiful postcard views, and I love it. It’s a great way to decompress in the evenings so I don’t barf work anxiety all over my spouse. No kids, so I can’t help there.

    19. PieInTheBlueSky*

      I live in a suburban area and commute to rural area about 70 miles away. It takes about 75-90 minutes of driving each way.

      I am fortunate in that my employer is flexible with schedules. I can work from home when bad weather is expected, I can leave work early for errands/kids’ school functions/bad weather, it’s ok if I get in the office a little late, etc. Without this flexibility, it would be a lot more difficult.

      My commute has very little traffic. The drive is usually easy. I have about 30 or so podcasts that I listen to (they have off seasons). I used to listen to the local NPR station, but they have the same news updates every 15 minutes and it got tiresome to listen to the same headlines again and again. It’s also easy for me to go on “autopilot” and not remember the last 10 minutes of driving. The worst part of the commute is winter. After daylight savings time ends, I drive on a rural highway in darkness for about 45 minutes each way.

      Sleep is a problem. I don’t get enough sleep and sometimes have to pull over at a gas station to rest or even take a short nap. I’ve come close to falling asleep at the the wheel more times than I’d like to admit.

      I have kids in elementary school. My spouse is very involved with the kids. My time is more limited than I would like. The kids’ school does have an after school program where kids can be watched until a parent comes to pick them up. Sometimes these programs have waiting lists and it can be hard to get into them, especially for summer programs where I live. And these programs cost money, of course.

      It’s also hard to get a lot of household chores done during weekdays. Sometimes I don’t have the energy after coming home and there’s a limited amount of time before we have to start the bedtime routine with the kids. Plus, sometimes I just want to spend time with the family. Also, it’s harder to mow the grass. There is not enough daylight or time when I get home from work, and if it rains on the weekend then suddenly two weeks have gone by without mowing and the grass is way too tall.

    20. it_guy*

      I live in the country and my commute is between 40-60 minutes depending on traffic. I am tottally in the country living on 20 acres with lots of wildlife and a 1/4 mile from the nearest neighbor.

      The biggest problem that I have is totally crappy internet! We have Dish Network for our TV and a similar satellite connection for internet because we are too far from a switching substation to have fast internet via landline.

      The totally bad thing is when it rains, I can’t work from home….

      1. Girasol*

        This! Also thick snowflakes and with one provider, the microwave running. See if you can find out from neighbors what internet service they use and how dependable it is.

    21. Elizabeth West*

      I used to have an hour commute. I didn’t mind because the bf drove and I would just sleep (we both had to be at work at 7 am and we got up at 4:30). For Exjob, I had a 20-minute commute and I hated it; the highway was annoying and nobody here knows how to drive. No kids, so I can’t speak to that, but I fed my cat at roughly the same time every day and when I was late, I would worry it was stressing her out.

      I wouldn’t mind a long-ish commute if I didn’t have to drive, but I think an hour is my limit.

    22. Lora*

      Driving I hate, but I commute about 80 minutes on the train, no problem. On the train I get caught up on my email, read, knit, listen to music etc and it’s a nice time to steel my nerves / decompress. If I had to sit in traffic that long I would be a huge ball of stress.

      My last job I could ride my bike to work, and I thought the longer commute would be a pain in comparison (although I’ve taken the train before) but it wasn’t bad at all.

    23. NJ Anon*

      I wouldn’t do it. I have a 2.25 hour round trip and thats under normal circumstances. It sucks and would never had done it when my kids were young.

    24. PlainJane*

      I live in the country. My commute is 12 mi/about 30 min. The commute is fine. What’s much more aggravating is having to drive almost that distance to get to a grocery store or any other kind of service besides our local gas station/convenience store. I still love country living, but it’s really frustrating when I forget something or run out of something and have to either go without or haul myself back to town. It’s also a pain when something happens to one of us. My husband had surgery recently and couldn’t drive for a week. So every time my son needed a ride to an appointment, I had to take at least an hour off work.

  22. Amber Rose*

    So my newest task is to build an RMA procedure from scratch because frankly, we don’t have much of one and what we have sucks, and I guess I’m doing them all now. I have zero experience in this, so some resources for learning how RMA processes usually work, or even some tips for tracking and accounting for returns (that ideally isn’t a giant spreadsheet of doom, I have so many of those already), would be really helpful.

    As a side note, every customer who has been getting on my case lately is from New York. I’m starting to feel like it’s personal or something. What the heck?

    1. Hillary*

      If your order system has a place to create returns, that’s the way to go. Barring that, could you issue a PO for each return? That way the customer doesn’t get credited/paid until the product is assessed and received, and it goes either back into inventory or written off if it’s defective.

      If you don’t do a lot and it’s only a couple paper, honestly paper might be the way to go. We have a form that gets filled out, all correspondence and paperwork gets attached, and it’s filed when the return comes back.

      1. Amber Rose*

        So far I have an excel spreadsheet form that auto-generates a number for me, which gets PDF’d and emailed out to people doing returns with the request they include a copy with their shipment. Then I give a copy to our shipper so she can match them, and I can assign people to deal with the returned item.

        I’m getting pushback on even that though, the sales guys are constantly complaining that they don’t want to inconvenience their customers by making them print anything. But if they don’t, stuff tends to sit in a corner gathering dust because nobody in shipping knows what to do with it.

        And I don’t wanna step on QA/QC’s toes either, since I don’t know what should have non-conforming product reports instead of an RMA.

        1. Jesca*

          I le a long comment below. But this is right on par. Unfortunately you are going to have to likely go toe to toe with sales as you will absolutely need the product marked upon return. I’m not sure, and maybe it is an industry with diva customers, but this is a must almost everywhere.

          What I would recommend is understand the broader processes (like QCs) that flow into this one. Sit down and have a meeting with QC and understand their needs. Then sit down with sales and try to understand their mentality on this.

          Then have a broader meeting with those who operate around this process along with sales and present your proposed process flow. Include detailed explanations. This will likely get sales to step down on their stance while allowing other departments to have input and understanding on how this is going to work.

        2. Natalie*

          I just want to mention, in case you are second guessing yourself, that sales people routinely exaggerate how much this or that normal procedure with inconvenience a customer. I’ve argued with sales people about cutting of clients who don’t pay their bills!

          Having to print out an RMA or write an RMA number on something and include it in the package is so, so normal that I sincerely doubt any customers are throwing a hissy fit over it. And frankly, it’s important enough that you shouldn’t cave to one or two clients who are behaving unreasonably (unless they’re literally your only client or something, in which case you collaborate on a procedure).

          1. Beezus*

            This! I have had sales people moan about how inconvenient something is to their customers, only to have the customer not bat an eye when they were actually asked. In my case, it helps that, in a past job, I was a buyer of the very product my company sells, so I can cite my experience in our customers’ shoes to assure sales peeps that what we’re asking for is very, very standard.

            Printing a specific RMA form might be a minor annoyance to a customer in my industry, but having them clearly print or write the RMA number on whatever paperwork they use, for our reference, is totally reasonable.

        3. nonegiven*

          There are a few places that put a return form and label, already printed as part of the invoice. All the customer has to do is fill out the form with reason for return, put it in the box, tape it shut, slap on the label and pay for shipping. You can always refund the return shipping if the return is because the item is defective and they are returning for replacement.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s not personal. Their mass transit system is shutting down and screwing up their days on a way too regular basis.

    3. Jesca*

      What Hillary has sated is pretty par for the course, but honestly there are so many nuances depending on the product and industry. There are no hard fast rules here. Bare in mind that when you are creating it that you are not violating any contact laws or previous civil case precidents set with whatever you develop.
      I actually have functioned numerous times over in process/procedure development mostly because process engineering comes pretty naturally to me. Most of these major processes I knew nothing about either, so I feel your pain.
      But I would literally start as follows:
      Understand contracts and warranties
      Understand what your company is doing now
      Understand what system capabilities you currently have
      Understand management expectation of the final outcome.
      This last one of course is key since there really are no hard fast rules to RMA. I mean most places want the stuff back before issuing credit. But sometimes it literally cost more to have stuff shipped back than it would be just to offer them a credit for it. This is something management will typically need to be involved in to make a decision. Its best to look at the costs now and not after you developed the new process.
      Also, bare in mind to leave yourself enough leeway for special circumstances while you are developing this. You don’t want to back yourself into a procedural corner with inflexible rules regarding RMA. This is still a customer interfacing process and it there are nuances there in regards to customer size, importance, and potential law suits.
      I would include though that if the product is reported to have caused or contributed to or POTENTIALLY has caused of contributed to anything resulting in a loss or injury to a customer, that it is set policy to have that product returned ASAP (sometimes customers will bluster at this, so you will need to keep that in mind in regards to nuance). You will want a process to flow on how to handle these situations in regards to the returned product as well.
      Also, if you have no ERP type system in place, you can either try to use a spreadsheet or do the old paper system. This is cumbersome to keep in mind it will probably double the time it takes to handle any RMA. I would though in this sense make a spread sheet (ahg I know) with set numbering for RMA. This is the best way to track them ERP or not. You give the special number to the customer and include it in any return shipping labels (or have them write it on the return shipping label). This is the best way really.
      -tack time this. It will let the company track cost vs paying for better system software
      AND, most importantly, determine your KPIs for this process. Might as well as businesses tend to want to know later how a new process is performing.
      If you have written processes before, ignore my general process development advice. I just like to over inform and under!
      And some parts of New York? Yeah they are like. Don’t take it personal. They even treat their own customers this way.
      Hope this helps!

      1. Jesca*

        ARG I apologize. I wrote that in word since I have been having a tough time with this site. It took all my spacing away! Sorry for the tough read!

        1. Amber Rose*

          No worries, I read it just fine. And I appreciate your advice. I’m trying to get some cross-training in QA/QC, which will help. But since that department right now is just one dude and we’re currently in the middle of a flurry trying to get certification to sell in Europe, there hasn’t been much time.

          For now, I’ve asked the sales guys to at least have their customers mark the RMA number down somewhere on the package. Hopefully by August I can have a proposal for a better system. At least I have a rough idea of where to start.

          1. Hillary*

            The controller or finance manager can be your biggest ally on this – you might want to loop them in if you haven’t already. Without the RMA numbers and receipts they can’t reconcile inventory and credit, it can create a nightmare on the books. Plus they’re usually used to going toe to toe with sales and are generally part of senior management.

            What Natalie said about sales is 100% accurate. Customers generally understand that there are processes they have to go through to get their money back, even on a return to Amazon you have to print their pack slip. It’s completely normal.

  23. Jess*

    I might be looking for a new job soon because I’m planning to apply for graduate programs to start Spring 2018. My current job has indicated that they won’t be on board for small amounts of flexibility, like leaving an hour early once or maybe twice a week so I can get to classes (would be going part time). Any tips for screening companies who would be more open to the flexibility? Or even those who have better hours–my current job is 9-6 but a 9-5 would work with no flexibility needed. I’m afraid that indicating I’m applying for school would worry them I won’t be focused on the job or that I would be leaving shortly after starting. Thoughts?

    1. CorporateLady*

      Honestly, it’s all about your skill set. I would totally give that flexibility to a new employee – if they were amazing. I want them to flex their time, be responsive, and have attention to detail. If they possess those qualities, I’ll give them freedom right off the bat.

      However, if they make that ask and I’m not seeing all the good stuff, well – then I’m not as interested.

      Good managers give their good employees what they need to be successful in work and in life.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Ask about work-life balance! Questions like that wouldn’t have to get specific about your graduate studies but will give you a good sense of whether the companies are flexible. You can also ask about hours, and whether they allow you to flex your schedule.

  24. HR Gal*

    Short version: Former manager is a HUGE jerk and I don’t want to use him as a reference. How do I explain that to prospective employers?

    Long version:
    I always had a good relationship with my former manager. And when I got an offer from my current employer that was contingent on him providing a reference for me, I told him about it and he said he was happy to provide a glowing reference (and he did). However, in the two weeks after that, he was very chilly towards me – I think he took my leaving the company personally.

    I always assumed that when I next began a job search, I would reach out to him with a warm message to mend the relationship we had and to remind him of all I accomplished while at the company. However, I recently learned from former coworkers of some awful, terrible things he’s said/done, including sexually harassing many women within the company. (He even manipulated coworkers so that I would never find out while there!)

    I have NO desire to ever interact within him again, let alone send a warm and friendly message to mend our relationship. But he’s also the only one in the company who can speak to my accomplishments while I was there. There’s no HR department at the company that I can talk to.

    So, what should I do if future employers require a reference from him? Since I’m rather early in my career, I don’t have a whole lot of other managers who can provide references, and I’m stressing at the thought of needing to either explain why I don’t want to use him as a a reference, or having to use him as a reference. HELP!

    1. Havel*

      Absolute last resort is to just give HR as your reference. Make sure to confirm with them that they’ll give the details (start/end date, title, possibly pay and eligibility for rehire).

      Better options include long-time/senior coworkers, or people up the reporting chain from him (even better). Again go ahead and make sure that these people are cool with it before you put their names forward.

      I have someone like this in my past and these strategies have worked for me. Anecdote, yeah, but the plural of anecdote is data.

      1. HR Gal*

        What was the reason you told prospective employers for why you were listing a coworker rather than your manager? I worry that by not providing my manager, it’ll look like I’m trying to hide something.

        1. Toph*

          If the former manager is still an employee at current place of employ (but just not currently your manager) I can’t see anyone blinking at why the reference from that company would not be a manager. If it’s a reference from more than one job back, there are dozens of valid reasons why you might use someone who was a colleague rather than a supervisor as a reference, potentially just due to how long it’s been since you worked there. FWIW I’ve also never been asked why I used a particular person as a reference when prospective employers are checking references. As long as it’s not someone super super junior I doubt it’d raise a red flag or seem like you’re hiding something.

    2. Sunflower*

      Is there anyone else who worked in a capacity above you that you would be okay listing? I’d try to find someone who, even if they weren’t your manager, you did work for (as opposed to a coworker you just worked with)

      Also a lot of companies will just call to verify employment- dates and positions- and won’t ask any questions beyond that.

      1. HR Gal*

        He’s fairly high up there as it is – his manager is the CEO of the company, who wan’t in the office much. I have high level coworkers that I can ask, but I wouldn’t say they were people I worked for… just with.

    3. Seal*

      I had the same problem with a previous manager. For most of the time I worked for him was had a good relationship, mostly because he knew I was the one covering his ass and made him look good. Then he got promoted and reneged on a promise to move me into his former job, but wrote glowing letters of recommendation for me during my subsequent job search. Once I actually got a new job he refused to speak to me during my notice period; in fact, he didn’t even bother to say goodbye to me on my last day. Within a few years of my leaving he was demoted and ultimately fired; I’m told that what I said in my exit interview was one of the reasons his boss started keeping closer tabs on him. Needless to say, I can never use him as a reference, nor do I want to!

      Even better – my manager at my next job, who I had always considered to be a mentor and who helped me get my current job, recently refused my request to use her as a reference. She recently retired and just didn’t want to be bothered, which is considered a bit sacrilegious in my profession. My original manager at my current job also retired and fell completely off the radar, so I have no way of contacting him. And I don’t want to use my current manager for obvious reasons.

      Ultimately, I’ve been using long-time, well-established colleagues who are fellow department heads or higher as references and who can speak to my accomplishments. I’ve had several interviews this year and no one has asked if I can provide a manager as an additional reference or why I haven’t listed one. If I absolutely had to give a manager as a reference and felt that the job itself was too good an opportunity to pass up, I’d bite the bullet and use my current manager. Fortunately, I’ve not had to do that.

  25. Yalla*

    I’m a manager of an office that requires a lot of travel- sometimes 20 weeks a year.  The thing is, the employees hate it, and for good reason.
    Most of the travel is to tiny towns.  So tiny they are fly-in and fly-out only, and with extremely limited accommodations.  Some of these locations have no hotels or restaurants, and the employees need to stay at a bed and breakfast, eating three meals a day there for a week at a time.  Sometimes the bed and breakfast won’t even guarantee a private room, and double-bunk someone on another cot in the same room!  There’s no cell phone signal either.  Changing the amount and the timing of the travel is not an option.
    Of course no one likes it.  We pay our employees a lot because of this, and I try my best to give candidates a realistic job preview.  Still, I know people do not realize all of what they are getting into when they are hired, and I know it wears on our present employees.
    If you had any suggestions on what might make this more pleasant or bearable, I would love to hear it. 

    Thanks!

    1. Christy*

      Do they get rental cars? (I’m not sure what kind of town you can’t drive out of that isn’t in the Arctic.) Perhaps that would help them feel less trapped if they could drive an hour for food. It’s far, but it’s freedom at least.

      1. Yalla*

        So small there are no roads connecting these towns to anywhere. Everyone who is there, got there via plane.

    2. FDCA In Canada*

      Good pay is a big help, but can you afford to give them more time off? If you’re staying at a town so small there’s nowhere to go and nothing to do there, then you get home and you have to pack all your living and hobbies into the few hours you get off after work, additional vacation time would probably be a huge boon to them. Apart from that, can you ensure they’re not taking on additional costs due to so much travel, and maybe see if you can pay for house-sitting or pet-sitting, pay for additional data costs they incur from traveling, that kind of thing?

    3. katamia*

      Woooooooow. Those are some really tiny towns. One thing that could help is to ask the people who have been there for awhile and seem to tolerate it what their best tips are (e.g., loading up the Kindle, bringing a DVD player, etc.) and dropping some of those concrete tips into the interview to see how they react.

      If people go to the same town often, maybe you could also work out an agreement with the B&B for a more interesting menu or some other perks.

      1. Yalla*

        Some good advice. People really can’t grok when I describe how small these places when they are attending job interviews. Maybe concrete tips highlighting just how boring it is will let them believe me when I say how isolated these posts are.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          You could recommend that they watch “Flying Wild Alaska” to get a sense of how isolated these towns are ;)

        2. Rat in the Sugar*

          Yeah, I would be really clear in interviews that these are towns that do not have roads leading to them. (I am burning with curiosity about where this could be). Personally, when you were describing it, I was thinking of the kind of tiny town my grandparents used to live in out in the middle of the desert–one gas station, one grocery store, one bar, and two churches–one Catholic, one Methodist. However, if I ever got stir-crazy visiting them there I could hop in my car and drive an hour and a half to the nearby city, which was still pretty small but had restaurants and movie theaters and a mall. I’ve never seen a town you couldn’t drive in and out of that wasn’t on an island, and I think that might be why some of the people you interview aren’t really comprehending just how tiny and rural these places are.

    4. London Engineer*

      Would you be willing to pay for two beds or more if that would guarantee a private room? As much as I don’t mind staying in hostels on holiday I don’t think I’d want to be in a room with anyone else on business travel.

      1. Yalla*

        Would I like to! But the B&B s have said no, customers pay per person not per room. They won’t turn people away if they have spare beds (because if you don’t stay there, there’s no where else to go).

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Do you frequently have to travel to the same towns, and/or is the schedule fairly predictable? Would it make sense for the company to rent an apartment or time-share-style property so that at least employees have greater privacy?

      2. KR*

        Are they the same towns? Can you rent out a room in a boarding house or a small studio apartment for employees and then pay a local to clean it once a week/before someone comes?

        1. Yalla*

          I described it as a bed and breakfast, but boarding house would probably be a better description. The only game in town. Several of these locales do not have any apartments.

          Could we buy a house in town and use that? Maybe in some of the towns… worth looking into. Thanks!

          1. Wheezy Weasel*

            I think the double-bunking is the biggest leap from inconvenient to intolerable (my own words, to be sure). For someone really eager to take on the job, they can convince themselves that they are the right candidate. ‘I love library books for entertainment, I have no food allergies and love just about anything so this isn’t a problem’. Throwing a random bunkmate in there is next-level inconvenient, and if it doesn’t come up until several months into someone’s tenure at the company, that would make me a little steamed.

            1. WellRed*

              No, it’s intolerable. Not sure why the bed breakfast can’t let the company pay for beds even if there’s no one in them.

              1. Turtledove*

                From the sounds of it, it’s because the B&B is the only hostel in the area and even some of the locals live out of it rather than having their own houses. Which means that if the B&B turns away someone when they’ve got an empty bed, that person is going to have to hope they can find someone willing to open the door to a potential stranger and let them stay the night, or they’re going to have to hope the local church (if there *is* one – some communities are too small to sustain one) is going to be habitable enough for an overnight stay – and depending on the area, that’s not a guarantee.

                I agree that it’s not a situation the employees should be expected to tolerate. But I can see the B&B’s perspective: if they’re the only source of transitory housing in the town, they’re risking someone being left out to the elements if they remove access to any of the beds. And in very rural communities, especially ones that are very far north, this would be culturally taboo – you *don’t* leave someone out in the cold to die if you’ve got room for them to stay. It’s just Not Done.

          2. Dead Quote Olympics*

            Tiny houses, or tiny pre-fabs, or those little TAB trailers? If these towns are so small and isolated, it might be hard to find existing housing stock. It sounds like the perfect use case for tiny houses or something similar. I’d take a Quonset hut over the housing situation you are currently describing. Possibly a tent.

          3. Turtledove*

            I’d say that if there aren’t any houses for sale in the towns where the bed and breakfast / boarding house cannot offer a guarantee of privacy for your employees (meaning absolutely no double-bunking ever), it’d be worth the money and time to invest in *making* some better living accommodations for your employees in that area. Even a tiny house, or some trailers, would be better than having to double-bunk without any warning. And paying the locals for upkeep and maintenance on the residence would probably help make it more palatable to them.

    5. Temperance*

      I’m wondering if you might be able to give your employees satellite phones or hotspots to use? I grew up in a small town, but it wasn’t quite as small as you’re describing, and it sucked. I have stayed in places with no cell signal, and if you’re used to it, it’s fine, but if you’re not, it can be really difficult.

      Are these towns so small that there aren’t grocery stores or a restaurant? Maybe a library?

      1. Yalla*

        One general store. No restaurant or library.

        But I will look into satellite phones, which I know people would love if that could be done. Thanks!

        1. OhBehave*

          Love the satellite phone idea. If these are towns you frequently fly into, then I would seriously consider a company trailer/tiny home. Outfit it with the best of everything to make the trip tolerable. If this would cause hard feelings with those you rent from, then it may not be a good idea to build your own accommodations.

          1. Turtledove*

            It’s possible that it could be made more palatable to the locals if it’s pitched as “well, our employees come in and out so often that we want to make sure that they’re not taking up space that could be used by someone who lives here. We will, of course, be hiring someone local to ensure that the accommodations are maintained and kept presentable, and [list of ways the company is still going to be putting money into the town].”

            The main issue is likely to be concern that the company building its own accommodations would result in less money coming into the town – which, considering that tiny rural towns often live on a knife’s edge economically, is going to be a serious worry.

    6. self published*

      Can you provide some sort of Internet connection — you probably can’t do a hotspot but maybe there is some rural equivalent someone knows about. That way, they can stay connected / watch movies, etc.?

    8. paul*

      are y’all sending people out to Alaska or rural Canada? Fly in and fly out only sounds extremely remote.

      I really don’t know how to make that type of travel not suck, and I *like* small rural towns…but not if I’m stuck hot bunking or room sharing with strangers.

    9. Beancounter Eric*

      1. Satellite phones w. data – haven’t priced recently, but I expect expensive. May be worth it for sanity/turnover sake.
      2. Do you have experienced team members chat with candidates during the interview process? You probably should – your candidates need full disclosure re. conditions on site.
      3. No way to get portable lodging, i.e. travel trailer to the location?
      4. I almost want to say find someone ex-military who has been through some field deployments, since they may have some ideas on how to make this bearable to your people.

    10. Natasha*

      This sounds cool for outdoor lovers or people with quiet, solitary hobbies like knitting.
      Is there a chance they could bring their spouses sometimes?

      1. Yalla*

        Afraid when they aren’t guaranteed a private room, I don’t think bringing a spouse will work out…

    11. Nelle Jefe*

      Are the locations scenic, at least? Are there opportunities to do outdoorsy kind of things, like hiking, skiing, birding, or fishing? Because I could see myself really enjoying a no-traffic, isolated town with some hiking right out the back door.

      How regular is the travel schedule? Do the same people end up back at the same places frequently, for years on end? I agree with some others that the double-bunking sounds like the worst part of the deal.

    12. Student*

      Screen significantly harder for people who can entertain themselves in such situations when you hire. Put more of your time and effort into training up the skills you need in people who are already predisposed to tolerate this kind of work environment, instead of trying to entertain people who are not suited to this kind of work.

      Also, very seriously, make some local contacts in these towns and try to train them to do the thing you need on an occasional contract basis. If you do that, invest more of your money into idiot-proofing your thing, and easy-to-understand training material so the contractor has a good chance of doing your thing, and less money on travel to middle-of-nowhere.

      And: satellite phones for better communications, no matter what, because really, even when there is no normal phone coverage there are still technical options.

    13. Boötes*

      I love tiny towns. I live in an area none too far from one-store towns and some fly-in or boat-in communities. IIRC in my worldly travels the smallest (self-proclaimed?) town I’ve been to had a sign that read Population: 4.

      Disclaimer: perhaps your company’s conflict of interest policies & nature of work precludes any of the options below that may even hint at friendly contact with residents. That said, notions that spring to mind:

      For towns your company regularly flies to:

      – can you secure a sort of host or fixer at various towns? Someone who lives or lived there, knows everyone really well, and is happy to play local guide a couple of evenings a week, maybe host a meal one night or at least make their kitchen available.

      – similarly, can you somehow contact residents to see if any are regularly away, or, heck, if they’d be game to hole up at the Town B&B and rent their house to you for the week.

      Stuff to do:

      – I find there’s usually a history worth learning about or people willing to give the fun, unofficial versions of it once I start talking to them :). How the town came to be, significant moments, when/why it shrank, how nearby creeks and hills got their names — there’s often loads to learn from long-term residents.

      – I love me some nights away from home. Seriously, last time I was on a business trip (& yes, I got all my work done daily), each night was a spa night. I read and ran more than usual and explored the rural & wilderness areas with another coworker.

      – If I knew I was travelling to remote places regularly, I’d have audiobooks, podcasts, language and other courses loaded up on my devices, plus an extremely portable Why Not? project per trip like learning to draw, possibly paired with a daily challenge like a portrait a day (which can be based on a photo in my library) or a silly song a day.

      Food:

      – Building on Bibliovore”s suggestion of having food ordered via Mouth, what about contacting the general store and advising them of your company’s schedule and whether they can order a supply list on your behalf, timed for your employees’ arrival, with the guarantee you’ll buy it? Or buy non-perishable food from the general store in advance and have them put it aside?

      – Companies specialize in chilled air freight packaging, aka perishable logistics. Can you plan out menus in advance and check boxes of delicate food for multi-hour flights? Perhaps a second round to arrive midway through the trip? I don’t know your budgets but perhaps you could meal-plan with a clever chef who knows how to work within these constraints to make meals your workers will even look forward to!

      – Or hire a chef to join the trips.

      I’ve worked as an outdoor guide in remote places, which involved splitting all the food between us for multi-day trips and cooking 2-3 hot meals for everyone using a single 2-burner Coleman stove. It can be done with delicious results.

      1. Turtledove*

        It sounds like these places aren’t just rural, they’re up far enough north that it’s a choice between winter ice-roads or flying in. Which would mean that the general store would 1) be pretty limited in its selections to begin with, and 2) be a lot more expensive compared to a more urban store. So setting things aside for the company’s employees might not work (it’d take things off the table for the locals), but arranging a supply list with the guarantee that the company will buy it might be feasible.

    14. Lissajous*

      Even though your remoteness sounds like a different flavour, this is a lot like the FIFO issues for minesites in Australia. Once a mine is built it’s fine, but when you’re the ones doing the building it’s a different story. (It’s not that you can’t drive out, except in the north in wet season, as much as the nearest town might be a couple of days drive and even then there may not be more than a servo to get fuel.)

      Googling for stuff that makes work in outback Australia bearable might give you some good leads.

      The sharing-a-room thing is almost definitely the final straw in all of this.

      If you have towns where you regularly return to:
      – Absolutely look into renting a house, or buying a house, for your company employees to use.
      – Alternatives to a house: portable building, nice caravan.
      – Work with the locals to help keep the house maintained
      – Work with the locals for food, cooking, cleaning etc while you have staff staying there.*
      – In general, work with the locals as much as possible. It brings extra income into the town – often much needed – and if you have an emergency they make all the difference. Someone else mentioned training up local people in the basics of what you need done – brilliant idea!
      – Along with the house, set up a satellite dish for internet. It makes a world of difference for people working away from home, and it give you a much better office set up (if that’s what you need). You can get ones that come with a phone to go with them, or given internet people can use the wifi to call using various apps.

      For situations where it’s a one-off, or too infrequent to make the above viable:
      – If a room has to be shared, it’s going to suck. Be open with your employees about the reasons, that you’ve tried to make sure it doesn’t happen but sometimes it does anyway.
      – Give newbies a detailed rundown of what it’s like on site, and suggestions of they might like to take with them to keep themselves happier! I always load up spare a hard drive with tv shows I’m watching, and the kindle with books. Lots of personal entertainment that lets me tune out, doesn’t require internet access (just a power point), and doesn’t take up much space when packing.
      – Daily bonuses for on-site work
      – Get them noise-cancelling headphones if sharing a room is unavoidable?
      – Advance notice of travel as much as possible.
      – For luggage allowances, be aware of how much of that is going to get taken up by work kit. Small planes have strict limits, but if you can send work gear up in advance it means they can pack a bit more of their personal stuff. (My laptop bag with all my work stuff will easily hit 10-11 kg, and the plane limit is usually 15 kg total. And I don’t have to pack tools.)
      – If there’s no internet or other comms, definitely get a sat phone. At the very least it should be a health and safety thing: your employees are going out to remote locations, you need to know that they got there safely and are still ok at least once a day. It also gives them office support. And then let them use the phone to call home for a little while – put generous guidelines in place (no threee-hour calls, pricey! Half an hour might be reasonable?), but don’t be super rigid about enforcing it (e.g. don’t penalise someone for going a minute over.)
      – If they do a lot of computer work and are used to multiple screens in the office: a tablet can be used as a second screen and it makes thing much easier. Even a small one; I only have an ipad mini – so, tiny – and just being able to put emails on a side screen helps so much.
      – Work with the hostel/boarding house as much as you can; explain what you need well ahead of time to give everyone a chance of working out how to make it happen for what price. Ask if the other bed in your person’s room can be the last to go, if possible. Also with food; once a place knows that our guys need packed lunches, including morning and afternoon smoko (they’re swinging hammers all day, they eat a lot!), they can make it happen. But they need time to work it out, and get the enough food in on the next truck, and work out how they want to charge for it.
      – Turns out almost everyone has some daily thing – usually food – that makes a world of difference to them. For me it’s really good tea (fortunately light and compact – very packable, I always take a stash on site). For one of our site managers it’s custard (seriously – fortunately this a standard accompaniment to pudding on site at dinner), for the other it’s toasted sandwiches – he always puts a sandwich press in the tools container – and vanilla icecream. For a lot of our tradies it’s their preferred beer after work. For a couple of people it’s coke zero. If you can find out what that thing is for someone and make sure they can get it, it really helps. Of course, often people don’t realise what their thing is until after the first time they’ve been on site.
      – Most people are pretty set about what they like for breakfast. Does the hostel offer their go-to cereal, or can they get it in, or can room be made for your staff to take it with them?
      – Food in general just makes a huge difference. If the food is good, people are so much happier. If it’s bad, mine sites go on strike. Again, work with the locals as much as you possibly can, give them advance notice as much as you can.
      – If they have a day they can’t get anything done because they’re waiting on xyz, or they’ve been up long enough to be due a break day, try and give them the means to go explore if they want to – take a hike for the day, or helicopter ride, or whatever it is in that town. I can usually take one of the site vehicles on my day off and go for a drive, and just having autonomy for a day is great. If you have to be in a middle of nowhere you’d never go by choice, at least get to see it a little.
      – You probably already do this, but make sure your staff are provided suitable clothing for the conditions, and that it fits! My hi-vis site jacket only comes in guy’s sizing. I have the smallest size and it’s way too big; cold draft blows up through the bottom, brrr. (Desert mornings before sunrise are cold.)

      And time off after they finish a remote stint is always good.

      *I don’t know what your staff hours when remote are, but for us on mines it’s 12 hr days, 6-6, every 14th day is a rest day, usually 3 weeks on 1 week off (construction swing). But literally the only thing you have to do outside of work is wash your clothes. You don’t have to cook, you don’t have to clean your room except keeping clutter out of the way, you don’t have to garden, you don’t wash your sheets or towels. It’s an interesting microcosm in that all work has value, and someone is paid to do it.

  26. Callalily*

    My senior coworker wants to make a pact that if either of us start looking for a new job that we’ll tell each other. The main reason is that this is a 3 person workplace (boss plus us) and she’s had many issues in the past where she comes back from a vacation to find out that the other put in their notice.

    I’ve only been here for 15 months and I am actively looking for jobs… I’m not jumping ship for just anything but I send out a resume every month or two for something I’d like. The workplace is pretty toxic (due to a mentally handicapped boss) and we share the same grievances about the workplace. She has shared with me that she really wants me to stick around for the long term.

    I was caught off guard and told her that I’d of course let her know if I was looking and left it at that. Now I feel an awful guilty feeling that I was trying to jump ship and she really wants me to stay. I considered telling her that I was already looking but it is doubtful anyone will even hire me with how short my stay has been here… so it would just make it an awkward situation.

    I was thinking it might be more appropriate to tell her when I get past the first interview stage, at least then it is serious and possible that I’ll be giving my notice in the near future. I am even optimistic that I’d be able to get a reference out of her if I needed one; which takes a lot of pressure off considering this is only my second job and my last employer won’t give a glowing reference.

    Does anyone else have a pact like this? Is it a good idea?

    1. I aim to misbehave*

      I guess it depends on your relationship. I have had some coworkers I would tell I was job hunting and some I wouldn’t, but I can’t imagine making a pact like that. I would resent it if someone tried to make it an obligation. It sounds inappropriate and maybe a little manipulative to me.

    2. Sadsack*

      Seems like a bad idea to me. This person has been there longer and has the same grievances as you, and hasn’t been looking? Even after watching others come and go? She’s only going yo leave if you tell her you are? I’m not sure what to make of that. I would worry about myself if I were you. Maybe you could at least tell her that if she’s unhappy, she should start looking regardless if what anyone else is doing.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. This is an occasion to lie by omission. When you get an offer it is ‘I wasn’t really looking but this thing just fell into my lap and I couldn’t pass it up.’ There is no upside in telling her you are looking and many downsides. If she is so disgruntled she should have been looking long ago.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yup. I can’t see this going well for you—at best, the effect would be neutral. I also don’t think you owe her anything, and I think it’s weird she wants you to be part of a “pact” (it honestly made me think of Jodi Picoult’s The Pact, which made me think of suicide pacts, which made me think that your coworker’s suggestion is a little weird. It sounds like her toxic workplace is messing with her head. That’s on her, not you. I would decline to engage.

    3. Natalie*

      I wouldn’t at all. Since you mention it’s a toxic work environment and it seems like she’s stuck around for a while, frankly I wouldn’t trust her not to have absorbed toxic thinking. There is a non-zero risk that she would sandbag you if she found out you were job searching. What benefit are you gaining in exchange for taking that risk?

    4. Another person*

      No, every bad place I’ve worked has an office martyr who feels helpless to change her bad situation. Yours wants you to feel trapped too; it’s a bad idea to agree to a pact. I’d tell her you can’t make any promises but if you do go, you’ll give her as much notice as possible. And if that turns out to be only two weeks, so be it. You can only do what’s best for you.

      1. OhBehave*

        I would be very wary of this coworker’s intentions. My gut tells me she would run to the boss and tell him that you’re looking for another job. If she does this, it’s possible you will be fired. Tell her the day you plan to hand in your notice so she doesn’t have an opportunity to spill the beans to the boss.

    5. LCL*

      If your senior coworker’s duties are similar to yours she may want to know where you apply so she can apply to the same opportunities.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      I don’t think it’s a reasonable thing to ask of you. And you don’t know yet, from experience, how she’ll behave if you do tell her…

    8. MicroManagered*

      I had a similar situation: ToxicBoss, coworker who was a friend/mutual support system for ToxicBoss. I felt ok being honest with her when I was in the end stages of interviewing for my new role, but I didn’t necessarily tell her about every single job I applied or even interviewed for. We’ve acted as references for each other (particularly useful since ToxicBoss isn’t a good one.

      Some people handle toxic jobs better than others in the long term–whether they just aren’t as affected by it, or they’re too inert to actually get out and find another job, or they need the job enough to deal with the BS, who knows? I don’t think the fact that this person is a long-timer means you automatically can’t trust them. You know her better than we do, so if you feel comfortable sharing your job search with her (at whatever status–just looking, interviewing, final stages) then I think that’s not completely outside the realm of normal. If you’re not comfortable, that’s also fine.

  27. Pet sitter*

    I’m filling in for another pet sitter, Jane, for a while for her client, Fergette. Jane planned this trip far in advance. Fergette agreed to the arrangement far in advance.

    Jane told Fergette that Fergette would have to pay me my rate, not Jane’s. Fergette now doesn’t want to do that. Fergette also doesn’t want to pay either of us until she comes back, which is over a month after I will have finished working for her.

    If I’m paid Jane’s rate, I’ll be shorted about $60. If I wait until Fergette returns from her trip to be paid, well… My bills don’t wait.

    I’m going to email Fergette later today (time zone differences make a phone call unlikely). I’m super nervous. How do I word this? I don’t want to be accusatory or adversarial. I tend to be blunt to begin with, which can come across as rudely brusque if someone’s already put off by the subject of the conversation, so I want to make sure this is written kindly.

    1. JustaCPA*

      If you had an agreement in advance that she was going to pay you your rate, simply copy/paste/photocopy it and resend to her via email

      “as agreed upon on such and such date, I will receive $20 per hour bla bla blah”

      As for WHEN she paid you, that should have also been part of the agreement so same copy/paste.

      1. Pet sitter*

        Jane and Fergette arranged this all verbally, so I don’t have a paper trail to point to. (This is a learning experience! This is my first time filling in for Jane and my first time dealing with a client who has even the tiniest issue with payment.) The other part of my email to Fergette will be getting everything I’ve been told down in writing and getting an acknowledgment from her.

        1. fposte*

          This sounds like it didn’t get handled well; it should have been arranged between *you* and Fergette, not Jane and Fergette. Right now it looks like you’re effectively Jane’s subcontractor, so I don’t think Fergette is totally crazy for considering whatever your arrangement is with Jane to be not her problem and to stick to her arrangement with Jane.

          In future, I’d have Jane do a handoff to you–“I can’t cover that time, but my friend Pet is great and often fills in with my clients; here’s her contact info.” It doesn’t make any sense for Jane to handle your terms, and I might just suck up the difference here as a lesson learned.

          1. RR*

            Agreed. As a pet owner who travels a lot for work, I have a standing arrangement with my regular pet sitting service. They’ve handled absences/coverage in two different ways. One, they find someone else, and as fposte notes, that someone is in essence their subcontractor. Regular service bills me at their regular rates, with normal billing due dates. Alternatively, service alerts me that they aren’t available, but they can recommend Soandso, and here’s her contact info. Soandso and I come to agreement on terms, including rates and billing schedule.

            1. Pet sitter*

              However, I do want to be paid my rate. The way this works out, with two visits per day, I’m being paid my normal rate for the first visit and $5 for the second. Not cool.

              If I were to do this again, I would communicate with the client in writing and make sure that we were clear about my price.

              1. fposte*

                I can understand that you want to be paid your rate; the problem is you have no agreement with this person, so you don’t have any leverage aside from skipping out on the pets, which you don’t want to do. Therefore I’d go for a tone of cheerful and clarifying and give her a discount if she pays now.

                1. Pet sitter*

                  Yep. Skipping out is seriously not an option. I’ll go with that tone. I didn’t want to give a discount, but after reading the responses here, I think I’ll do it.

                  Thinking about it from her point of view, if I had convinced myself I was paying X and there wasn’t any paperwork proving otherwise, I would not react well to hearing that I actually owed $X+60.

                2. OhBehave*

                  Yeah. I think this will have to be a learning experience.
                  Nothing was in writing = no leg to stand on here. What does Jane have to say about this discrepancy in the agreement? Would she possibly make up the difference since it’s her customer who is reneging on the deal?

    2. Grits McGee*

      Are you in a position where you can just decline to take on this job? I mean, unreasonable people are going to be unreasonable, but it’s not rude to say, “I’m sorry, [Jane’s rate] won’t work for me, so I won’t be able to take care of FergettePet. ” If you have recommendations for other pet sitters, that might smooth it over, but it sounds like 1) you’re already doing Jane a favor and 2) Fergette is not going to be worth the trouble.

      1. Pet sitter*

        I’m not really in a position to decline right now. Also, I really like the client’s pets and the client herself seems great – there’s just been some sort of disconnect, or perhaps she thinks my rate is flexible because that’s emerging as the standard for pet sitters in my area. (That’s a very bad thing for customers, which is why I charge a flat rate, but I’ll save the tl;dr.)

        1. nonegiven*

          As I told Jane when I agreed to take this job for you, my rate is $x/y, and I expect(ed) you to pay by $date for work from $date to $date. I have done $job on $days from $date to $date. I expect your payment of $xxx, mailed to me at $address by $date.

    3. Paige Turner*

      So…did Fergette leave for her trip and then not leave her payment as promised? What was the communication (if any) that you’ve gotten from her? Do you have a Plan B if you don’t get a response to your email in a certain amount of time?

      If you want to phrase the email in a way that allows Fergette to save face, maybe something like this would work- “Hi there, hope your trip is going well! I wanted to contact you about a possible mix-up with payment. Based on our previous discussion, we agreed that I would receive $X by (date). I got a conflicting message from Jane, and I want to make sure that our previous agreement is still in place, especially since I’ve budgeted for this payment to go toward bills due on the first of the month. Could you confirm that I’ll be receiving that amount by then? Thanks!”

      1. Paige Turner*

        Ah, just saw your response above about the details. As a former dog walker, I wish you luck.

        1. Pet sitter*

          Thank you! And thank you for your suggestion for the email. I like the language you’ve used there.

    4. Artemesia*

      Given the dispute I wouldn’t want to do this job without the money up front at the rate agreed. Not paying until a month after your gig — ridiculous. People who weasle like this are the people who end up stiffing you.

      1. Pet sitter*

        It’s normal for a client to pay at the end of their trip, when the pet sitter’s work is finished. The trouble with that in this situation is only that my work ends over a month before the trip ends.

        1. meg*

          Really ? I’ve always had to pay for my petsitter up front, or at least leave a check on the counter when I leave.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Ask her if she will mail you a check, perhaps consider lowing your price if possible in order to get paid quicker.

  28. peachie*

    I’m newly ‘managing’ someone for the first time this week (she’s a temp who will only be here for the summer, and I’m not her boss, but I do have oversight over everything she does and am responsible for training her/figuring out what she’s doing, sooo….). I’m glad to have the help, but I’m so surprised at how tiring managing someone is. It’s an entirely new kind of draining.

    1. Michael Scarn*

      It really is. So many interruptions, their mistakes are your mistakes, it’s easier to do the work than to adequately review it sometimes, and then you still have to get your own work done on top of that!

  29. consultant*

    I have 3 job interviews next week. It’s always like that. First I get rejections for weeks and then 4 invitations within 2 weeks time.

    Arranging the interviews was super difficult. And now I have 2 days – actually one day, since I have to fly to my first interview on Sunday – to prepare for the interviews: 3 companies with different foci, histories. It’s crazy.

    Add to that that my boss hates any deviance from the norm, so I will have to lie to get to one of the interviews. (Of course it’s no issue for me to stay longer on the next day, but he will be crazy that I have to leave early anyways).

    1. bleh*

      Good luck! And sorry about the crappiness with your boss. I may have a similar situation converging here shortly. I had two rejections, including one just last weekend from a place I interviewed twice and felt good about (huge bummer). Cut to today, and I’ve got an interview lined up next Friday and an invitation to interview for another role where we’re working out scheduling. On top of that, I reached out to a contact at the second place who I’d been in touch with a while back about a job that got put on hold, and he’s going to try and arrange to meet me when I’m there for the other interview.

      I’m a little nervous that the jobs I really want will go slowly and the one I’m less sure about will give me an offer quickly and I’ll have to make a tough call, but I can’t worry about that at this stage. Just gotta roll with it if it happens!

  30. WorkingMomToBe*

    Hi fellow AAM readers! First-time commenter here. My question is this: I am expecting my first child towards the end of this year, and am struggling with how and when to ask my boss about going part-time.

    Some background: I am an individual contributor on a two-person marketing team at a smallish professional services firm. I joined the company a year ago because my colleague in marketing was overworked and they needed help. They had an assistant, but that person worked ~15 hours per week with the days and hours always changing. When my colleague needed a day off they often had no coverage in the department. This happened often enough that it became problematic. In addition, the assistant had a different skill set than me and could not help with all of the work. They supposedly would have kept the assistant, but the person was afraid they were going to cut the position upon hiring an FTE so preemptively left.

    I say the firm supposedly would have kept them because the company is not doing well. There have been layoffs and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more. While that is not good, I think it may work in my favor re: requesting to go part-time.

    Another thing that may work in my favor is that, while theoretically you can always be doing more in marketing, currently I do not have a workload that keeps me busy 40 hours a week, even when we are “slammed.” Part of the problem is that my marketing colleague is our informal team lead and work often gets bottlenecked with them unless I can subtly wrangle things over to my plate. The other part of the problem is the firm does not have a large marketing budget, so we are limited in the tactics we can implement.

    I am looking to go to 3 days per week with the understanding that, when needed, I will either work remotely or come in to the office for additional hours depending on the type of work. I had a coworker at a previous company who had this kind of schedule and it worked out great. (Some of the marketing responsibilities in this industry have a wildly fluctuating workload.) In addition, with advance notice I will try to make arrangements to cover when my coworker needs time off, though there still will be times when we are both out (but that happens now, too, just infrequently). The many childcare options available to my family are such that this kind of arrangement is feasible.

    So…how/when do I broach this with my manager, and how do I explain that the work will still get done without giving away that I am not currently busy 40 hours per week? I will of course suggest that we trial this for 3 months but am at a loss otherwise. And should I type up a formal proposal or just have a discussion?

    1. Emi.*

      First off, congrats on the baby! :)

      I would talk about this in person, but have a semi-concrete proposal worked out (and probably bring notes?), so your boss has a clear idea of what you’re proposing. I think it would be better to discuss this before you go on leave.

      That said, I don’t see how you can propose this without giving away that you’re not currently busy 40 hours a week. If you want to downplay that, though, try focusing on how this arrangement will make it easier to flex with the fluctuating workload. I guess you could say “I won’t be at loose ends when I’m waiting on approval from Jane” or something like that, but your manager is going to figure it out at some point. That should work in your favor, though, along with the company’s struggles, right? Are you concerned they’ll ask you to go part-time before you want to, or eliminate your position entirely?

      1. WorkingMomToBe*

        Thanks for the reply and advice! Yes, I am a bit concerned that they may want me to go PT before I’m ready, but I don’t think they’ll eliminate the position. The nature of the workload is such that it is too much for one person, but unless they want to do more with the budget, it’s not enough for a second FTE. I think you’re right to play up the fluctuating workload and it benefitting the company for me to go PT. I’m guess I’m just nervous that they’ll think badly of me for not keeping busy all week, but it’s not for lack of trying! Thanks again!

    2. MsMaryMary*

      I’d lean towards having something on the formal side prepared for your manager. Nothing too intense, but enough that she knows you’ve put in a lot of thought. I’d also emphaisze why this arrangement would be beneficial to the company, not just why it would be good for you.

      If you haven’t already, I’d also suggest thinking through how this would impact your benefits. If you go down to 24 hours a week, you may not be eligible for health insurance, retirement benefits, etc. Your vacation and sick time may acctue differently. Benefit changes would have a financial impact on both you and the company, so definitely include it in your planning.

      Good luck!

      1. WorkingMomToBe*

        Thank you for the input! Good point about benefit changes. We’re on my partner’s insurance but I’ll definitely ask to make sure benefit hours are accrued proportionally. Thanks again!

  31. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m feeling a little crappy; I’m not sure if this is more personal than work related but I’ll try–

    How do you let things go?????

    I’ve a friend who used to work here after I referred her for an open position. She left 18 months ago and ever since then, every time the topic of work comes up in a group chat or gathering, she talks about how this place was so bad. I mean…..she’s not wrong in her criticisms and has every right to feel how she does. I don’t blame her or anyone else for leaving. People move on, that’s how it is. I GET THAT.

    But for some reason every time she brings it up, its just..im just…argh!? I have been trying REALLY hard to not take it personally. I keep quiet because I don’t want to cause any bad feelings or anything.

    I mean…does that say something bad about me that I’m OK here and dont’ want to move on (yet)?
    Does SHE blame me for contributing to her misery?
    I used to talk so openly about work with my friends but I never do anymore, just because she’s told them that it’s a shitty place to work, and….I don’t know, maybe they respect me less for being here?
    Maybe my coworkers respect me less for being here for so long? What does it say about me that I’m not unhappy here?

    I just want to stop taking things so personally and feeling so bad.

    1. Here we go again*

      It sounds like you haven’t said anything yet. Chances are, she may not even realize that she is talking about this incessantly. I am very guilty of this sometimes until someone brings it to my attention. I would just say “Hey, I don’t know if you realize this, but you talk about OldJob all the time. I’m sorry that it wasn’t a good experience for you and I understand your frustration, but I am not ready to leave yet. I would appreciate it if we could move on from this topic and focus on other things.”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I really haven’t. As much as I’d like her to stop saying it, I know she’s entitled to how she feels, and the only thing in my control is my reaction and feelings.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Sure she’s entitled to how she feels, but if you don’t say anything to her, she’s not operating with all the facts of the situation. I would be so sad and embarrassed if I knew I had been inadvertently hurting or upsetting a friend!

          Also, my guess is she feels and is expressing a huge sense of relief at being out of a job she hated, and that has absolutely nothing to do with you or her assessment of your value or intelligence as a human being. She’s not hating her old job AT you, just processing her feelings near you.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Yeah your last paragraph is spot on. She’s a good person and I m glad she feels free to say how she feels. If I remind myself this enough I’ll get over it eventually.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I mean, that’s true, but it doesn’t mean you should stay silent.

          Part of being a friend is hearing when your friend is having a hard time with what you’re saying and then avoiding making that worse for them. If my friend gently told me to please stop complaining because I still work there, I would be mortified that I had caused them any anxiety/stress (also, it would be helpful for me to stop complaining so much, because that stuff can creep up inadvertently).

          But the other aspect of being a friend is that you expect your friends to communicate clearly with you. If this has been bugging you and you’re not saying anything, then you’re also not upholding the underlying friend-agreement. Say something!

    2. Passing Through*

      I don’t know why you should feel bad unless you are in a position to correct the things that are so bad at your company and are choosing not to do so. People stay at companies that are not great places to work for lots of reasons like the boss is terrible , but the pay is decent, or there are good benefits, flexibility, or a close commute that makes it easy to manage the rest of their life activities. I once worked at a place that became intolerable for me. A co-worker who shared many of the same concerns is still there six years later. She still has some complaints, but I guess for her the pros outweigh the cons. I don’t know how she stands it, but I don’t think badly of her.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’ve thought about this a lot, why I’m not looking to leave….right now, it’s the stability and routine keeping me here. It doesn’t hurt that my coworkers are decent people, I enjoy my work, and I get paid alright. I’ve worked in far more toxic places. I’m lucky to not have to worry that much about money, but I do plan on asking for a raise. I don’t begrudge anyone leaving…..I guess its just my own insecurities.

    3. over educated*

      Honestly I think you’d be justified in politely shutting that down. “I’m glad you’ve moved on to somewhere that’s a better fit for you, but I still work there and all the negative talk is bringing me down and making me feel awkward in front of our other friends. Can you tone it down please?”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Honestly, I don’t know if that would even go over well, I’m not comfortable bringing anything up. I know there’s a bunch of other issues there that are more my own rpoblem than anyone elses, and that I wont’ get in to in this thread but I just want to stop cringing every time I read/hear her saying this.

        1. zora*

          I think you’re being way too ‘bending over backwards’ worrying about your friend here. You are allowed to ask friends to avoid one particular subject in conversation, it’s really not that big of a deal, there are a million other things you all can talk about.

          I would really encourage you to push through feeling bad about asking, and just, with a gentle, friendly tone, say something like mentioned above “Hey, I know it has it’s issues, but I’m still working at XYZ, and I don’t feel like talking about work tonight, can we talk about something else?” It makes less of a big deal about it if you just bring it up in the moment, but after doing this a few times, I bet it will become less and less of an issue.

          If you are that uncomfortable even saying that, then this person is not a very good friend, to be honest.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Totally agreed. A friend you have to walk on eggshells around to avoid upsetting (and even take the blame for something that is 100% their decision!) is not a real friend.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            1000% this.

            It’s also not realistic to simply go from “cringing” to “not cringing.” Your friend’s comments are hurting you! You can and should say something. There are a lot of situations where it’s better for people to let things go, but this doesn’t sound like one of them. I think shutting it down would be the preferred outcome for both of you and for your friend dynamic.

        2. Overeducated*

          The thing is it doesn’t matter if she’s doing anything objectively wrong, friends care about each other’s feelings. There was a time a few years ago when my work life was upsetting me so much that I asked my best friends whose work was going well if we could just avoid ALL work talk for a while because I was so emotional about it. They weren’t doing anything wrong, I literally was being irrational and comparing myself to people in different jobs and admitted it, but they were my friends so they humored me for a bit to be kind until things got better. You’d be asking for something even smaller and more directly related to you.

        3. OhBehave*

          Talk to your friend! You will never get over this until you do.
          She’s been gone 18 MONTHS and is still bad-mouthing this place? Are you sure she’s not doing this intentionally? Because you brought her to the company? That’s a long time to hold on to that kind of animosity towards a former workplace.
          You could counter her comments by saying, “I’ve worked there x years and I don’t find it quite as toxic.” You most definitely should not feel bad about any of this. But you really do need to stand up for yourself. The other friends know you still work there. Don’t you think they wonder why you stayed if it’s as bad as she says it was?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It could be that seeing people from Old Place reminds her of her upset and she needs to revisit the upset.

      Honestly, I think you are over thinking this. She is the one who can’t let go. If she keeps bringing up the problems then you are going to have to keep closing some wounds.

      Can you just say that you prefer to focus on the good things that came from Old Place such as your friendship? “Yeah that place has its downsides, but we got to be friends because of Old Place so that is a good thing.”
      Or you could say, “Every time you mention these stories, I feel bad. How can I make this better for you?”

    1. offonaLARK*

      Awww, that’s terrible! (Our Outlook has been absolutely stupid for two months, so I feel some of your pain.) Good luck!

    2. MsMaryMary*

      I used to work in the teamshop of a Major League Baseball team, and our POS system crashed during the World Series. Even once it came back up, our scanners didn’t work for a few hours and we had to key everything in by hand.

      Good luck, godspeed, and try to stay sane!

  33. office uniform*

    Thank you to the community members that answered by question last week! I bought a few new pieces and started cycling them in my work uniform of a plain black or navy skirt paired with a simple patterned blouse. I also started setting out a week’s worth of work outfits on Sunday – life changing. If anyone is thinking of simplifying their work wardrobe in this way, I definitely encourage it.

    3. Emi.*

      Yay! I don’t have the clothes for a proper uniform (yet), but I’ve found that using a wardrobe app (I use SmartCloset but there are lots of options) is good for outfit planning. It’s kind of time-intensive to take pictures of all your clothes in the beginning, but it does make it a lot easier for me in the long run.

    4. tiny temping teapot*

      I love doing that, I’m glad it works so well for you as well. (Though I sometimes indulge in the urge to have theme weeks. This week all my work pants will be purple! (I could actually do that for 3, or maybe 4 days))

    5. Parenthetically*

      I get through winter by doing all my work outfits on the weekend. That extra 15 minutes in bed is priceless, as is saving all that mental energy!

  34. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Have you ever been asked by your supervisor to lie to a client in order to cover a mistake you made that she didn’t catch? How did you handle it?

    1. Summertime*

      Uh sort of. Like blaming a nonexistent creative department so you stay on good terms.

      1. Effie*

        Yes, I’ve done this. I’ll say (in more professional terms) “the turnaround from the other department is xxx which we can’t control…I can ask them to expedite it all they want but I don’t know what their workload is, and of course I’ll let you know as soon as it’s done!” when the other department is my supervisor.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Poorly. By talking around the topic and focusing on other aspects of the issue (apologising but trying not to go into detail), using “we” language etc. Avoiding actively lying which has the result of coming across kind of incompetent sometimes but I really struggle to lie. OK, this is 0% helpful but I don’t want to be more specific. Basically this involved oversights that are horribly unethical, but all attempts to invoke consequences for the person involved had failed and retaliation was 100% a given.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Depending on the situation. Generally, Boss and I would figure out what I would say. The times I have done this, I made sure to answer the customer’s overarching concern. Many times they do not care about the mistake, they just wanted larger picture concern addressed.

    4. Gaia*

      Yes and I wouldn’t do it. If client discovers the lie they are bound to be far more upset than with the original mistake.

    5. Chaordic One*

      In the past I had a supervisor who made me her scapegoat for her her mistakes with her clients. She admitted it up front to me and didn’t have any reservations about doing so. It was part of the job and should have been in the job description (acting as the designated scapegoat).

      It got old fast and I ended up quitting without having another job lined up, although I was able to find temp work fairly quickly until I found a new full-time job.

  35. JustaTech*

    Today’s my first chance to interview someone in 2 years! Thanks for all the good questions I’ve picked up here (and which ones tell me nothing and just freak out the candidate).

  36. I aim to misbehave*

    A while back someone mentioned the show “Due South”. I just wanted to let those of you who are looking for it that it is on Youtube.

    2. Camellia*

      Yay! I looked for that not long ago on Netflix and Vudu, but may have to resort to Youtube. Thanks!
      “He’s embarrassed. For the last few blocks he’s been tracking a Lhasa Apso.” I still love that line!

    3. Aisling*

      I got a DVD set of all seasons at Target last year! It was in their discounted DVD section, not with the regular tv shows.

  37. self published*

    How valid is creative work during a gap? Currently not working FT to care for family members, but am pursuing writing on a blog/self-publishing nonfiction books. I have a professional writing background, so any return to work would likely be in the copywriting world.

    I hope to gain traction, in which case I could point to followers/visitors/book sales, but I am aware of the difficulties. If I don’t “make it” as a self-published writer, how can I spin this time off to look valuable?

    1. katamia*

      Emphasize the skills you’ve learned–Wordpress, Calibre, writing compelling blog posts, etc. Also, if there’s a way to freelance/consult in the same area (like blogging for a small company that does…whatever you nonfiction about :P), it might help to look into that.

    2. fposte*

      In addition to what katamia says, I don’t think you necessarily have to make it look valuable in the sense of being a resume-worthy added value; keeping your hand in while you take care of family is a perfectly sufficient standard. You’re not looking to use this to avoid a resume gap, just to talk about why you’re not rusty.

  38. Summertime*

    Did anyone feel like their career directly affected their friendships? As in — after you moved up in your career, was it easier to find people who also were at your “level,” emotionally/psychologically?

    1. AnonMarketer*

      For me, it’s a yes and no answer. I’m a fairly introverted person, so my social circle is about three to four people that I’ve known forever and that’s about it. I was friendly with my co-workers at my first job, then my second just was very corporate in a city I didn’t know anyone in, and I was very, very lonely. My current job is smaller and startup and filled with very intelligent, creative people, and it’s been a mixed bag since. Some people tolerate me and vice-versa, others I’m very friendly with and don’t mind my niche interests. I did have a very close friendship with someone and it resulted in a huge falling out that has left us only on professional speaking terms; and since then I keep even my friendliest co-workers at arms’ length (I only hang out in the office or office social events; never outside of work—never again).

      I think it’s less about the position and more about the environment. I think moving up and managing people might also change how you interact with your co-workers in general; particularly if you start managing them.

      1. Summertime*

        Thanks for sharing!

        I was wondering more about social circles in general and less about coworkers. Like, if you become some well-to-do exec, is it easier to find solace in other execs? Or if you’re a painter and you finally get recognition do you also find more friends? Or if you’re not at the top yet, can people still see in you who you are?

        1. AnonMarketer*

          Oh! I personally don’t think they’re related unless you’re big on networking events.

          A really good example where I work is that we have a very specific school that puts out a very specific set of grads that companies in the area really love to hire from. Going to these network events, if you don’t work at one of these companies or have/are attending/attended this specific school, it gets super difficult for people to take you seriously. So it’s going to depend on how comfortable you are with who you find in these groups. I think it can be easier to relate to people on the same level as you job-wise, but it’s not a guarantee of friendship, just that you can swap stories that they might have input on.

          As far as general friendship, I find position doesn’t matter so much as much as they have the same interests at me; but you have to really get out there to find new people—it doesn’t happen just by virtue of having a new position.

    2. Temperance*

      Yes. I’m an attorney, and mostly socialize with other attorneys. We understand that sometimes plans will be cancelled last minute, because work.

      I do really value my relationships with other people, too, though. I grew up poor and most of my childhood friends didn’t go to college and had kids really young, so our lives are different but I value them a lot.

    3. over educated*

      I haven’t “moved up” all that much but when I was in grad school and it was really stressful, I found it really important to invest in friendships that weren’t based on work – either with people in other fields entirely, or with people I met through grad school who were willing to “turn it off” and talk about unrelated stuff. That was important for me to relax and maintain an identity outside of work. I’m not in the medical field, but I also particularly enjoy(ed) hanging out with med students and doctors, they always had interesting bits of knowledge and perspective.

    4. Triangle Pose*

      Yes. I’m an attorney and after I moved in-house, I have a lot more time for networking, professional orgs and my favorite workplace “extracurricular” – Diversity and Inclusion. I feel like I build way better friendships and find way more people at my level whwn I move to the client side. Part of that is because I have more time. I will say the other thing that was weird is when private practice lawyers started seeing me as a potential client and treated me differently than when I was an associate slaving away for them. So that is fun.

      For me, finding people at my “level” wasn’t about moving up in my career, I actually think when I left for a top university and left the people my age from my hometown is when I finally found “my people.”

    5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I’m a little confused. Do you feel you’re not at a high level (career-hierarchy-wise), and so your coworkers are also not on your emotional/psychological level? Based on your follow-up comment, it sounds like you’re wondering if the quality of peers/friends changes when you receive recognition, promotion, or advancement in your professional life. Am I understanding your question correctly?

      1. Summertime*

        Yes, a bit.

        Basically — I’m not invited to parties with super cool people, because they’re already successful or well-known so people want them there. (Except this one I crashed and it was so awesome talking to smart, interesting people.) When I go to things like Meetup groups or networking events or even paid events, I find it’s more about people who WANT to be good at xyz, rather than people who actually are, so it’s super awkward because I can’t talk to them about our shared interests because it ends up with me just becoming like a teacher/mentor and that gets annoying really fast.

        But I’m also not like, super successful yet. I’m not trying to be egotistical — I’m just saying, it’s hard to find people when I’m in an in-between state where I am focused on what I’m doing and I know a lot, but I’m not successful enough to be noticed by people yet.

        So the options are like — hang out with people who complain about how hard stuff is and how not successful they are, or hang out by myself. So far, I’ve found the second option more appealing, but I also don’t have any friends.

        So that’s why I was asking. Am I right in thinking that when I DO become successful it’ll be easier to find more like-minded people?

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Oh, that’s interesting. I don’t know that I’m super successful or well-known, but in my limited experience, I’d say there’s a slight increase in being exposed to people who are similarly successful. But that doesn’t often translate into an increased likelihood that you’ll befriend those people. I’ve found that the relative “quality” of a person (as an interesting, engaging, ambitious person) is not driven by their professional level or career stage.

          Most of the interesting, successful, and ambitious people that I meet are people that I meet in non-party contexts; for example, at a gala or benefit for an organization, at an industry event (especially if it’s focused on a specific population or issue), while volunteering, at rallies, at the bookstore, at yoga, through friends of friends, at a concert or cultural event, while traveling, etc. And I met most of the successful people I know before they were successful. I actually think it’s a little harder to meet people as you get further to the top, because there are more demands on your time/attention, and it’s hard to know if people want to meet you or the person they think you are.

          So it might help to reframe how you meet and make friends, as well as how you cultivate your friend circle. I get hit up with the mentor thing from time to time, but I’ll usually redirect it, or I’ll maybe become friends with that person. You can also increase the likelihood of meeting cool people by going beyond your immediate group. Put together events, partner with people on projects, join an activity group, etc. And most of all, do things that you really enjoy. Sometimes it can be fun to do a skill share (e.g., I’ll teach you to play guitar if you can teach me to knit). Be adventurous. Strike up conversations. Ask questions.

  39. Frustrated grad*

    Help! I graduated with my bachelor’s degree in business management 6 months ago- from a good, AACSB accredited school with a 3.2 gpa- and still don’t have a job :(
    I live in a midsize city where the main industry is tourism and snowbirds, so most jobs are hotel or restaurant related. I have four years of experience working as a department manager in fast food and have no desire to work in any food service or retail position, so I’m basically looking for any entry level office position. I’ve had four phone interviews and one in person interview but never move to the next step, I’m guessing because I have no previous office experience. All of those interviews were for customer onboarding positions. I’ve gotten more desperate lately so have started applying to jobs that don’t even require college degrees- admin, data entry, filing etc., in the hopes of getting any type of office experience. I don’t really know what I want to do long term- am interested in IT but unfortunately those positions tend to require a C.S. degree- I just want to start somewhere and start learning and picking up new skills.
    My resume uses action verbs and lists accomplishments from my previous job (I had to make sure my department met its goals, did hiring, scheduling etc., so actually useful experience), and also lists my awards from school and volunteering experience. I always customize my cover letters and use examples and stories to illustrate how my skills could transfer to what the job needs.
    I would like to move to a bigger city with more and better job openings, but I can’t really afford to yet. Any suggestions? Job fields that I haven’t looked into yet? Things I can do with a business management degree?

    1. Anon Anon*

      Have you done an internship? If you haven’t that would be a good idea, as it would get you some experience and help you develop both skills and contacts.

      1. Frustrated grad*

        All of the local internship postings I see require you to be a current student, not sure why there aren’t any post grad ones offered. Is it worth applying anyway or is the current student requirement likely set in stone?

        1. Anon Anon*

          I would consider applying, and I would also go back to the career services department of my alma mater and ask them if they can assist me in finding an internship. I know several colleges that assist new graduates with this sort of thing.

        2. Anxa*

          It’s very likely that you HAVE to be a current student for those internships, as that may be a key part of the way the position is structured. Non-profits may be more flexible, as you can basically be a volunteer with a more defined role without causing legal issues.

          Regardless, get moving on it fast. I hadn’t won an internship in college and I didn’t realize how may ‘recent graduate’ opportunities there were until too late. They ARE out there but they usually have a 1-2 year window.

          You say you have a lot of tourism in your city. Is it expensive? I know I struggled after college because I moved back home, in a very expensive area with a lot of successful people, but there were very few opportunities in my area (and tourism was also a huge industry)

    2. Dankar*

      Depending on where you’re located, you might want to look into university admin or IT jobs. One of our IT professionals (the best one in my opinion) has a B.A. in Philosophy, so the C.S. degree isn’t necessarily a requirement.

      Heck, I did some IT when I was an undergrad (English) and it was very simple stuff. Academics are often wonderfully intelligent Luddites.

      That being said, if you’re in Florida (as I suspect you are), you might want to look into positions with local hotels. A lot of my recently-graduated classmates went into the hospitality field due to the location and, while they didn’t stay there forever, the learning curve was steep and allowed them to pick up a number of transferable skills.

    3. Bertha*

      I was in a similar position after I graduated with my BA.. I had to give in and get a management food service job.

      After that, I quit because I thought I had a good hookup at a writing/editing job, but it turned out it was basically cold-calling.. so I quit after three weeks, kept working part time at the other job. The only way I was able to break-in to the office world was by giving in and going to a temp agency. I gained actual office experience, and while they couldn’t hire me, they referred me to an employer that did hire me full time.

      The compromise you could look into is doing some type of admin work/etc. for a company that does food service, which I’ve seen some people able to do.

    4. tiny temping teapot*

      Is there a popular or good temping agency? I started in admin transitioning from my previous field and now in two years have lots of office experience.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      You mentioned snowbirds – then there are probably quite a few medical centers/hospitals/doctor’s offices that need office help. I’d think fast food management would translate well into that industry.

    6. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      If you can afford to, you might also consider volunteering. Where I am, there are hospitals and a children’s science museum where you can volunteer in an office/admin capacity. While you won’t get paid, it will give you office/business experience that would be beneficial in your employment search.

  40. Michael Scarn*

    In the past, I’ve always tried to avoid using recruiters when looking for a job because I figured if it comes down to me, without a recruiter, and another candidate, with a recruiter, and we are similar, I have a better shot of the company going with me because they save on the fee. I’ve never had a problem getting interviews in the past. After 4 years with my current company, I’m looking to leave for fairly lateral moves in terms of responsibility and pay. I apply directly with the companies, but never hear back! However, if a recruiter interviews me, I get called back for an interview! Is anyone else finding the this to be their experience? In my local area, it’s a candidate’s market. We’ve had a tough time finding qualified people for our open positions and we’ve paid more recruiting fees this year than ever before. I love it when I see a qualified candidate come through directly to us. So I don’t know they I’m having issues myself.

    1. no*

      They may like to feel like they are testing you out first. And at my company the fee is cheaper than benefits, and the hourly wage tends to be cheaper. We do temp to hire, though.

  41. Mouse*

    I’m working on a cover letter for a job I’m really interested in. I have some semi-relevant freelancing experience, but unfortunately I’m under a confidentiality agreement that states I can’t say who it is or put the gig on my resume, though there is a process by which I can request permission to do so (not blanket permission, specific cases only). Is this appropriate in a cover letter? I’d hate to just leave it out, especially since I’m a couple months short of their experience range!

    “I also do freelance editorial, marketing, and social media work for a small teapot company in New York City. (Unfortunately, I’m under a confidentiality agreement, so I can’t share their name. I’d be happy to request permission to do so and pass that information along to you in later stages of the hiring process.)”

    1. Michael Scarn*

      I think it would sound better to leave the whole section in parentheses off altogether. If you got an interview and they asked you in person, you could explain the need for confidentiality at that point.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I think you could mention it but you’re over-explaining and making it sound negative. I used to freelance and some of my clients couldn’t go on applications or resumes due to a non-disclosure agreement. I just put something about the type of work I did for them and then added a note that I was under a confidentiality agreement. I don’t think I’d put it in the covering letter, though.

  42. Anon Anon*

    Have you ever had an interview where you were told nothing about the job that you had applied for? I’ve been sitting in, on our initial screening interviews (I’m not participating I’m just listening) to discover that there is no information provided to the candidate about the job they are interviewing for, nothing, not even big picture stuff, like which department the position is located in, and the general type of work involved.

    Granted none of the candidates have asked about this information either, but I have found it quite odd.

    2. ABL*

      I attended an interview like this once, and it turned out to be a group “interview” to pitch a multi level marketing scheme. I walked out. The part that really gets me is that people seemed surprised when I did so.

      Anyways yeah I would say red flag!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep! I’ve seen ads asking for Admins, Sales, Technicians…and when someone calls you, they can only tell you the time of the interview. They won’t even say the name of the company.
        Scary red flag.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Yes, but I was young (on break from college) and unfamiliar with the MLM recruitment strategy at the time. It was a non-obvious MLM (as in not a specific type of product but rather bulk discounts on ‘everyday products’ or something). Even so I was decidedly not interested as it was clearly a sales gig.
      However, it sounds like you’re saying your company is interviewing people by not providing them with information about the job they’ll be taking? I would highly recommend suggesting to the primary interviewer that the basic job information be included as part of the introduction to the candidate. That’s assuming the company has nothing to hide about the job (see recent posts about bait and switches). Otherwise it totally will come across as a red flag to savvy candidates.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Well, I didn’t get that kind of information in my interview for my current job, but that’s only because I had been doing pretty much the same thing as a volunteer as I am as a staffer now – just longer hours and an overnight shift.

      But walking into a new job completely blind? That’s downright creepy. And they aren’t even asking questions about what they might be getting themselves into? Are you sure they didn’t get a job description before the interview?

  43. Teapot Librarian*

    Have any of you ever been in a work situation where you (or a coworker) used annual leave every day to shorten the work day? I have an employee who has been having a transportation problem that is getting untenable for him, and if he worked only 7.5 hours a day, the problem would be resolved. He accrues 8 hours of leave each pay period and hovers at the maximum allowed to be carried over. If he took a half-hour of leave every day, he would still accrue 3 hours of annual leave each pay period and have less use-or-lose at the end of the year.
    Is this ever done? Have you done it? Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      I don’t know if it’s ever been done, but it seems like a very reasonable compromise as long as there’s no issue with coverage. It’s unclear from your post whether you have the final say, but if it is, I’d encourage you to allow it if it doesn’t conflict with any essential job duties.

    2. ak-blues*

      Is there anyway you could be more flexible with his schedule? If he’s able to to come in a bit earlier, work through/part of lunch so that way he’s still working the full 8 hours without having to cut into his leave time?

      Also what does his work primarily entail? For example my father leaves the office almost every day at 3:30, but on his hour drive home he uses bluetooth to participate in conference calls and complete his trouble shooting calls (he’s lucky enough that he can complete this work via phone). Could your employee telework for part of the day? If he uses public transit, could he work on his laptop for part of the time?

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        He works a 7-3:30 schedule already. It was the shift from leaving at 3 (he’d been working 7-3 and “not taking a lunch break” until I realized it and told him that our personnel rules specifically state that an employee can’t take their “lunch” either first thing in the morning or last thing in the evening) to 3:30 that caused the problem. He takes paratransit, and apparently that half hour was the difference between him being able to be picked up consistently on time and him waiting multiple extra hours to get picked up.

        1. CAA*

          If it’s paratransit, then this may be something that could be addressed by a disability accommodation that allows him to take his lunch as the last thing in the day. Can you get HR involved for help with this?

            1. LCL*

              Before you talk to HR, find out what he would prefer. In my opinion, skipping lunch to leave early is a crappy accommodation and if someone suggested that to me I would say no, and would have a hard time saying it politely. But a lot of people do it, I know someone doing it right now against policy but their boss doesn’t care.

              1. Teapot Librarian*

                Definitely going to talk to him first, but it would actually be a return to what he (nominally) was doing before.

            2. Liane*

              I think that your original plan of using 30 minutes leave/day would work as an accommodation, but do check with Employee. Since it sounds like he usually ends up having to take a lot of leave as year end/anniversary date approaches to “use it up,” he might prefer this. I don’t like the lunch at end of the day, both because there are some states (I believe) that have laws covering meal breaks and because it isn’t a good idea to go that long with just the 15 minutes paid breaks.

      2. Alice*

        Ak-blues, I know that it’s really common to do conference calls while driving, and people in my family do it too. However, it’s dangerous even with Bluetooth. The cognitive load of participating in the phone conversation is significant, and heavier than the cognitive load of participating in a conversation with a passenger.
        Telework or working during the commute on public transit are great ideas. Working while driving is not.
        Here’s an interesting read if you want to know the science behind distracted driving: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25277018
        [Alison, if this is off topic from Teapot Librarian’s question, just leave this post in the spam filter]

    3. CAA*

      The closest I’ve ever had is a few people who like to take every Friday off during the summer. I doubt if a half-hour per day would have as much impact as a full-day per week does, so this should be doable if your business is the type that doesn’t require coverage. The main questions are whether the employee agrees that this is a good use of his PTO and whether your accounting/timekeeping system/corporate policy allows leave to be used in half-hour increments. Also, I think he should be open with his coworkers that he’s using leave to cover the absences. Otherwise it will really look like he’s slacking off and leaving early/coming in late and it’s liable to create bad feelings that you may or may not ever hear about.

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      I did that one year to work shorter hours in the summer. It worked out really nicely since we’re open shorter hours over the summer and so don’t need to worry as much about staffing coverage.

      It seems somehow odder as a permanent thing, but if it’s ok with you and him and any coworkers who’d have to cover the extra time I don’t see any actual reason not to.

    5. paperfiend*

      I did something kind of similar one summer. My son was having major sleeping issues, and the treatment (insert description of treatment method here) involved me getting a lot less sleep as well, for a couple of months. HR and my manager okayed me coming in slightly later each morning during that time so I could get more sleep, and using my accrued leave time to do that. I think I basically used a half day of leave per week during that time, and it really helped.

      However, that was a temporary situation and we all knew going in that it was temporary.

    6. LCL*

      Yes. I know someone who does this for commute reasons. I have known people to do this near the end of their career. It’s a win-win if your company requires you to work full time, can’t really flex the schedule, and employees are allowed to keep enough leave on the books for it to work. Do it! For his sake and yours.

    7. OtterB*

      That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have had a series of health issues since February (now on the mend) and have been working shortened days from home a lot of the time. I used accrued sick/personal leave first but have been using vacation time since then. I had a lot accrued with no specific plans for it, so that was better for me than arranging something with FMLA. I work for a small, flexible organization so could have arranged something else if I needed to, but this seems to work fine.

    8. Language Lover*

      Would it be possible to just reduce his “full time” schedule to 37.5 hours and reduce his pay accordingly? Would he want that?

      But otherwise, I would definitely go to HR and see if you can get some sort of exemption for him in regards to the lunch rule if possible.

      1. JanetM*

        Depending on the job and the company, that could affect the employee’s benefits, or even the company’s accreditation if the job requires a certain staffing ratio.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Definitely check this point out. Insurance, PTO and other things maybe impacted because they are based on hours actually worked.

    9. Parenthetically*

      My husband’s OldJob did this. Half the staff cut out early every Friday to miss the worst of rush hour. If someone gets all their work done and chooses an arrangement like this voluntarily, I don’t see the problem.

    10. Snarl Furillo*

      Since you mentioned this is a paratransit issue, is there something your company could do to help him take different transit or shift his schedule? For example:

      -Cost share price of an Uber/car share/taxi to his home OR to an accessible transit stop (I was thinking that if you currently have something like tax-advantaged transit pass, parking reimbursement, etc, that he is using none or not all of, that money could be reallocated)
      -Four 10s instead of 5 8s
      -One of those rideshare vans?
      -Work from home or remote?

      Obviously these solutions depend on his particular disability. It might help to think of this as both a transit problem AND a schedule problem. The solution might be in combining some change in both of those things.

      This is also a great question to ask the Job Accommodation Network. You can talk to a real person about it if you use their chat feature! (Scroll down to the bottom and click “Live Help” during business hours.)

  44. Pixel*

    *Happy dance*
    Two interviews this week, two great offers, a few agonizing hours spent trying to make up my mind, and I’ll be sending off the signed offer in a few minutes!

    I’ve been trying to move on for two years now, kissed so many frogs and had so many disappointing interviews. Thanks to diligently reading AAM and paying careful attention to her spot-on advice on cover letters and interviews, I’m finally heading where I want to be. With a company that actually looks like it values and wants me. And a decent raise. I still can’t believe it’s happening.

    *Happy dance* *Happy dance*

    5. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      WONDERFUL NEWS!!! Happy to hear it!! Just know that you deserve this! You worked hard and earned this!

  45. Junior Dev*

    Here’s a thread of life lessons learned as a fishmonger. I wanted to post it here because a lot of them seem applicable to work in general:

    “#4 Tools are an extension of the self. How you treat your tools says a lot about howyou treat your craft and yourself.”

    “#28 To be good at your job requires more than technical expertise. Be curious of everything around you to inform your practice.”

    “#30 Learning a craft taps you into a circle of knowledge and relationships. Once you’ve learned, pass it on to others. Don’t disdain youth.”

    And a whole lot more. (link in following comment)

    2. Pixel*

      This reminds me of “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” – a book I absolutely adored as a teen and will probably ring true, if somewhat corny, not that I’m (gulp) in my forties.

  46. Pinkyout*

    I just got a job offer and I’m pretty happy about it. The salary is higher than I anticipated but the 401k match is 5.5% instead of 7% at my current company.

    I am hoping to negotiate a signing bonus onto my offer but should I bring up the 401k match as a reason why? I will also sell my skills and why I’m a strong candidate too!

    1. JustaCPA*

      absolutely! We just hired an officer for our company. Our match doesnt kick in until you’ve been with the company a year. He tried to negotiate that we match immediately, but we are unable to do that within the regulations of our plan. In lieu of that, we gave him a signing bonus approximately equivalent to the one year match. Also, if he leaves within 2 years, he has to pay it back.

      Now in your case, it would be an ongoing variance between your current match and future match. Harder to determine what the right number should be there but you should absolutely try!

  47. Anxiety*

    Could use some words of advice on this. Perhaps due to some stressful things that have happened at work lately, I’ve developed a weird anxiety reaction to being at work–like, just walking in the building has me close to throwing up (I spent Wednesday actually vomiting). I talked to my psychiatrist who said to rely heavily on my as-needed Klonopin prescription for now and have scheduled a couple of sessions with my former therapist to talk it through, but I still feel on edge and kind of nauseated. Any advice on getting through this and focusing while I’m feeling kind of miserable at work?

    1. LizB*

      Oh goodness, I’m sorry this is happening. You and your mental health professionals know best, but are there little things you can bring into the work environment that you enjoy? Pack your favorite lunch/snack, bring in a photo of someone or something that comforts you, load up a comedy podcast on your phone? Can you take walks on your breaks to get some fresh air, if that helps?

      I don’t know what the stressful things were, or how you usually cope with stress, but my therapist taught me a Container visualization I use when I can’t stop focusing on stressful things. I also sometimes journal, either in a regular narrative style or a worry-journal style (writing out what I worry will happen, what the worst outcomes could be, how I could respond in those cases, and who I could look to for help). Both of those are good ways for me to tell my brain, “You’ve freaked out about this issue enough now, it’s time to put it away and do some work.”

    2. Marillenbaum*

      Oh, I’m sorry. That’s rough. I would try really ramping up your other self-care (in addition to medication and sessions with your therapist): give yourself plenty of time to sleep, make sure you’re eating nourishing food and moving your body in a way that feels good. I would also second the suggestion for treats you can enjoy at work: I’m a big believer in the power of really nice coffee or tea in a favorite mug, or knowing that you can zone out for an hour doing data entry or whatever while listening to an episode of “2 Dope Queens”.

    3. JanetM*

      That’s a really rough situation, and one I’ve been in (though thankfully not for many, many years).

      I have found that ginger is helpful for nausea, even anxiety-caused nausea. It may or may not work for you. (My preference was a bite or two of candied ginger, but you can also get ginger lozenges.)

      If you have a private or semi-private space, there is a yoga pose that I found helpful: stand up and slowly bend forward as if touching your toes, but only go as far as gravity takes you. Take a couple of slow deep breaths, then slowly roll back up.

      I second Marillenbaum’s suggestion of small treats, and LizB’s suggestion of doing things at work that bring u pleasure.

      I haven’t tried this myself, but I have friends who swear by a particular grounding exercise: when you feel stressed or distressed, look for “Five things you can see. Four things you can touch. Three things you can hear. Two things you can smell. One thing you can taste.”

      I’m glad you’re already taking steps and have a plan. I wish you all the best in getting through this patch, and I hope that your work stress eases off.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Is there any chance you can create a safe space/item at the office that doesn’t have the negative associations? I recognize this is absolutely just a stop-gap and doesn’t help the overall problem, but if you can find a quiet spot in the building and do something comforting there (while still being work appropriate!) it might give you a positive association with the building to combat the immediate ‘everything that ever happens in this place is horrible’ emotional response. Or, as other folks mentioned, bring in a treat, a comfort item, or carve out a moment to read a chapter of a book or something. (I used to have a beanie baby tiger on my desk and when things would get really bad at work, I’d sneak him onto my leg and occasionally pet him. Silly, bu it worked)

    5. Teach*

      I spent some time throwing up before (and sometimes at) work due to anxiety. One thing that helped me, in addition to therapy, meds, and self-care, was to eliminate that back-of-throat feeling that led to vomiting. Very strong cough drops and Cloraseptic throat spray really helped. I didn’t get nausea as much as a gagging/choking feeling that led to vomiting. It also provided a sensory change that distracted my brain from the adrenaline. Cough drop plus ice water in meetings was helpful, too.

    6. Courageous Cat*

      Dramamine helps me with nausea, it’s the reason why I haven’t thrown up in 15 years (despite lots of drinking). It also makes me fairly sleepy. Those two things reeeally help with anxiety, I find. The non-drowsy kind is also great. Hopefully that or Klonopin will help you to dis-associate work with those feelings after a little while of use.

  48. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

    I’m wondering if anyone has insight as to career possibilities for someone more task-oriented. I’m someone who likes to have projects that have an actual end to them, and while my current job started out as an executive assistant position where that was a portion of the work, it’s morphed into 99% data entry. I love where I work and my bosses are fantastic, which makes me hesitant to leave (I also am not sure if I should make it a point to stick around longer. I’ve been in this position for 2 1/2 years, but was let go from my previous job after only a year. I did work 4 1/2 years at a wholse membership club prior to that, though, and learned to work in a wide variety of positions there). But I just get so BORED at work.

    One thing that also throws a wrench in everything is that I only have an associate’s degree. I actually have a ton of college credits, but that’s only because I switched majors/took some classes just for fun, so I’m not much closer to a bachelor’s than the average 2-year student. Going back to school full-time isn’t an option for me, so it’d be years before I could get a 4-year degree, and even then, I’m not too keen on getting a degree “just because”. However, I know this puts my at a disadvantage in a lot of areas.

    So, like I said, I do hate the idea of leaving, but I just get so dang bored. I’m not looking for a job that’s like my Life’s Calling or whatever; I just want something that is somewhat interesting. (My favorite job EVER was working part-time as a personal assistant while at the wholesale club, but that employer couldn’t offer insurance, so going full-time with her was a no-go. I have to have affordable insurance because of ongoing health problems.)

    Any suggestions?

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Can you reframe the data entry that you’re doing as discrete projects so that you have milestones to reach and have tangible evidence that you’re accomplishing things?

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        I’ve sort of tried that, but it’s difficult because it’s a nonstop onslaught of the same stuff. Like, my main responsibility has no beginning or end other than my office hours, if that makes sense; there’s no way to break it down into projects unless the project is “enter ten of these. Okay, now enter ten more of them.” I have a few other responsibilities that can be reframed like that to a small degree, but it still doesn’t change the fact that I’m bored out of my mind…and when I get bored, I become somewhat unproductive if I’m honest. That’s something I’m definitely working on. But…I don’t know, it just seems like a job I won’t be super pleased with in the long-run.

        1. Teapot Librarian*

          I was thinking along the lines of “100 rows then celebrate” but I can totally understand the idea that you’ll want to transition into a more interesting position! I love doing a discrete chunk of data entry to give my mind a break, but I’m not doing data entry all day, every day. I wish you a lot of success!

    2. tiny temping teapot*

      My friend only had an associate’s degree and eventually due to all the different position that listed “college degree” as a requirement she did go back t school and it did take her 2-3 years while still working to get it. BUt sadly, and I don’t agree with this, a lot of jobs do require it. You don’t have to get the degree just because – look at things you want to do and find classes and a degree that helps you get there.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        That’s…kind of the point of me asking for ideas: I’m not really sure WHAT I want to do. I’m not looking for my life’s calling, but I’d definitely like some suggestions regarding types of positions that even sort of fit my working style…you know, so I know where to even start with this stuff. What I meant by not getting a degree “just because” is that I don’t want to just pick some random area of study just so I can have a 4-year degree on my resume. I WOULD like it to relate to whatever career I’d end up in, but since I’m having a hard time even coming up with ideas regarding that, picking a degree would be truly random at this point.

        1. tiny temping teapot*

          Sorry – for my friend it was easy to pick finance/economics because it was the stuff she truly wanted to be doing and helped her with the jobs she was interested in. You’re totally right – bad idea to start when you don’t even know what you want. Unless you think there’s some value in trying out classes looking for what you do enjoy.

    3. Ghost Town*

      I’m jumping in on the college credit piece. Since you say you have a number of credits, have you looked to see if the university where most of your credits are has a general studies, liberal studies, or other similar degree? (or if another uni near you has something like this?) While these programs are shrinking, they do exist and are great for people who have accumulated credits that don’t fit in another program but definitely fit the spirit of a well-rounded college education. The student populations I’ve seen pursue these are military spouses and late-in-the-game major switchers.

      Extrapolating from my personal and professional experience, you can usually transfer up to half the total number of needed credit hours to an undergraduate degree. And to mitigate the full-time bit: at my state uni, more and more classes are being offered online /and/ there are classes going until 10pm (usually the end time). So, you may be able to fit in-person classes into your schedule.

      Instead of seeing this as getting the degree “just because,” could you see it as a challenge or personal goal? It seems like you are hitting a wall in your applications because you don’t have the degree. Right or wrong, if that is your reality, getting the degree may be the best, long-term option for your professional growth.

      (My husband just graduated after spending the better part of 6+ years going to class part-time while working full-time. It was a long tunnel. There were frustrating moments. It took a lot of logistics [longer commute + only one car + dog/then/kid]. But, overall, he’s happy he did it and completed it [he’s also the only one amongst his siblings to have a college degree], even though he hasn’t yet gotten a new position b/c of the shiny, new degree.)

    4. Overeducated*

      What about something customer service oriented, where each customer is a different interaction? Something like being a cashier might be too repetitive, but I found being a bank teller and a tour guide both very engaging and distracting because the interactions had a lot of variety.

    5. Zathras*

      If you live near any college/universities or are willing to move, you could look for administrative positions there that match your skills. Most university jobs have at least some seasonal ebb and flow around the semester schedule, so you might find that helps break up your work into “finish-able” projects even if the tasks are similar. They tend to have good health insurance. Many also offer tuition benefits to full time staff so you could work toward a degree that way.

    6. Aria is not my name*

      I started my project management career with only an associate’s degree (which I earned at 42 and allowed my years of experience to be “in lieu of” the bachelor’s degree, no one ever disagreed with me.) You could consider becoming a project coordinator while working towards your PMP certification. Or look into becoming a business analyst – both of these career paths are project oriented by design.

  49. bassclefchick*

    Oh, Geeze. I committed an AAM cardinal sin. I told my old boss about my new job before I had the written offer. Boss promptly took away all my work and told me she didn’t have anything else she wanted me to work on. Yikes! Last day at old job is today.

    Luckily, I got the written offer yesterday and my official start date is July 10. Yay!

    Anyone else make a mistake like that? How did it turn out?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I quit a toxic job after getting a job offer, but no start date! I was young and naive and thought an offer automatically meant the job was set. I wound up being unemployed for a month, waiting for the new job to process paperwork and give me a start date.

      I was fine, financially, but it was a very nerve-wracking month for me because I didn’t know if the job was actually going to come through!

    2. Zathras*

      Yikes, glad it’s working out. I’ve never done this, but in your situation I’d quietly make sure my coworkers know what old boss did, so they can factor that into their plans for giving notice if they ever leave.

  50. LizB*

    I was able to spend some time with my other manager-level coworkers this week which was lovely! In the course of the conversation they totally (and kindly) called me out on being a perfectionist, which I know is true, but I somehow hadn’t realized that the specific behavior they were talking about was part of my perfectionism. I’ve done a lot of work on making myself turn in work products that are just very good, not The Best Ever, and that effort is going well… but I hadn’t then expanded that to the bigger picture stuff. I’m making steady improvements in the area I manage, and I should be happy about that, not obsess about the fact that it’s not 100% Exactly Right yet. Good reality check!

  51. Office Mercenary*

    My last two job interviews were with employers who, upon some brief Google research, had some press coverage that was highly questionable, to say the least. In one case, the company had serious allegations of misconduct with sometimes fatal consequences. In the other, the executive whom I would have been assisting allegedly built a very successful career over several decades based on fabricated credentials. During an interview, what is the best way to politely inquire about negative information that comes to light in the pre-interview research? If there’s a good explanation, I would want to give the employer a chance to respond to allegations and present their version of events. If there isn’t a good explanation, or if they don’t explain what they’ve done to correct the problem, their response would also be telling. However, I’m struggling to phrase the question in such a way that it won’t sound like an aggressive TV journalist. I can’t picture myself casually saying, “So, the Guardian and Village Voice both say you’re liar. What’s up with that?”

    1. ABL*

      This is obviously a calculation only you can make, but I would think hard about whether you want your name associated with those companies, even if they turn out to be great employers. Putting that on your resume for your following job search might not look great to a future potential employer who may be aware of the reputations of these places. Though if it’s a total smear campaign or they’ve made significant enough changes to satisfy you, you can presumably pass that same explanation on in the future.

      1. Office Mercenary*

        I didn’t end up working at either of these companies in large part for that reason. However, my question is how to broach the subject in person. My goal is to collect as much information as I can, as my industry has more than its share of shady characters and I always want to know more about the players and whom I should avoid.

    2. fposte*

      I think this is a big “it depends.” I think you’re right that a journalistic approach is just not a fit for an interview, so the “giving the employer a chance to respond” thing is probably not going work well for either side. It also depends on how close to the problem you’re likely to be–a question that boils down to “Do you suck?” is, again, not likely to elicit useful answers, and the people you’re talking to might not have the information you seek. I think your A example is more negotiable, in that in the “questions for them” part of the interview you can say “I’m seeing TeaCo get some bad press lately on the Oolong build–how is the company dealing with that?” If they talk about PR rather than addressing problems, that’s a disappointing but useful cultural sign.

      On working for somebody directly who’s been accused of falsifying credentials: asking directly about it is *really* nervy, especially if that person is in the interview. That’s not a “never do it,” but it’s a high risk that you’d want to calculate. If you don’t want to work for that person unless you get a clear and candid answer you can work with, the fact that asking has a reasonable chance of sinking your candidacy might not be a problem.

      (I’m also assuming you’re not going through a recruiter here. A recruiter might have concerns about what you ask in interviews if it reflects on them.)

    3. Iris Eyes*

      For the one that had the fatal misconduct, something along the lines of what has the company done to learn from the problem.
      “When preparing for this interview I came across an article on X but didn’t see a follow up article on what happened afterwards. It would help me get a feel for the company culture and values if you could share some about how this was handled, or what processes you have put in place to help keep this from happening going forward.”

  52. Just Biz*

    I was just able to interview for an internal position to a department I really want to work in. Wish me luck! They had me apply and interview even though I’m shy of my 6 months by a few days because they liked my background, so I’m hoping that bodes well!

  53. the_scientist*

    I have an interview next week to join the board of a feminist non-profit organization in my city. My personal values and the values of the organization align really well, and I think it’s an incredible organization that does incredibly important, meaningful work. The organization itself has won a number of prestigious awards and grants and includes past service recipients on the board, which I think is really awesome.

    The screening process has been fairly involved so far– I’ve submitted a cover letter + resume, and then answered a 5-page questionnaire that assessed alignment between my values/the organization’s (it deals a lot with reproductive health, which is obviously pretty politically charged and divisive), and now they’d like to have me come for an in-person interview. I’m super excited, but my best friend is on a NPO board that is a hotbed of dysfunction, so she’s warned me to be really careful. I would love advice on things that I should be on the lookout for and what I should be asking about to really ensure that I’m a good fit and that this board is functional, collegial, and well-run.

    1. Paige Turner*

      That sounds super cool! No detailed advice other than to find out (either through asking directly or through more subtle means) how long the term length is, if there are term limits, how long the other board members have been there, and what options you’d have for leaving early if needed. Could you speak briefly with a current board member outside of the interview if they offer you the spot?

      1. the_scientist*

        Thanks, these are great suggestions! one of the board members actually worked for my current employer so I think I could leverage that connection to speak 1:1 for details. They have already given me pretty detailed info about term lengths and expectations but I’ll make sure i ask about the other things you’ve suggested.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Find out exactly what their board member responsibilities are, particularly around fundraising. (Some boards have an expectation that board members will raise or donate X amount. Not all, especially not boards that don’t put a premium on having rich board members with rich friends, but it’s worth finding out.)

        1. Stella's Mom*

          Also do the following due diligence:
          1. Download last several years’ annual reports and comb thru the reports, their consistency and messaging, and esp. the financials carefully. Can you read financil reporting well enough to spot any potential mid term funding gaps or problems? Look at their IRS disclosures if they are in the USA.
          2. Ref. Board Members: how long has each been on the Board? Has each given (financially) to the org in the past year personally aside from just their time? Google Board Members.
          3. Ref Grants: Pick a couple of the grants they were awarded and do the follow thru of all the steps, with the project manager or director if you can: Ask about: how the grant was selected and applied for, received, project worked on, reporting done in timely manner back to donor and to public etc? How was grant finished and project moved on to be either done or sustainable in the future? What is the Org’s sustainability plan for fundraising?
          4. Go thru annual reports and website and check on longevity of staff members. Continuity?
          5. Google the Exec Dir and some of the staff and also look them up on LinkedIn. Look for stories of professional wins and good things to ask about related to the org, projects, grantees, donors, awards.
          Good luck!

    3. RR*

      I’d recommend asking about what kind of liability insurance they have for Directors and Officers.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ask if you can review the bylaws and the board members’ handbook if any. The bylaws should show how the org is expected to run and the handbook should explain what is expected out of board members in detail. Between the two you should be able to see how boardmembers are fired. You want to know that non-contributing or detrimental members can be removed.

      It sounds like a high functioning board. They would not be so productive (awards, grants, extensive screening process) if they did not have some level of cohesion. Since you are in a city, there is probably a good pool of board candidates to chose from. And there will probably be less financial stress compared to a less populated area.
      One odd thing I have found is that boards with NO money very seldom argue. There is nothing to argue over. Boards with some money available can have more difficulties. If you can work into conversation, find out how long their meetings run, how often they use subcommittees and find out what they do when they disagree on a matter.
      Long meetings MIGHT indicate frequent disagreements or indecision. MAYBE.
      If they don’t use subcommittees I would be worried, but I would be concerned if they had many subcommittees also.
      As far as disagreeing is concerned, what you are looking for here is that basic respect remains intact.
      You can also observe how they talk with each other. Are they guarded? Or do they seem relaxed but still professional?

  54. I woke up like this*

    Hi all! I’m finishing up my PhD this upcoming year (defending in Spring 2018), so I will be going on the job market in this Fall (for a job starting Fall 2018). Aaaaaand my second child is due at the end of November, right in the middle of when first interviews usually occur in my field. Fortunately, the interviews are usually via Skype.

    Has anyone here ever done the academic job market while having a baby? I see lots of articles and blog posts about navigating the job market while pregnant, but I’ll only be pregnant for the first part. I’m nervous about conducting Skype interviews while in the newborn daze, traveling for campus visits so soon after the baby is born, requesting pumping breaks during campus visits, etc. At the same time, for a variety of reasons, I’m not willing to wait a whole extra year before wading into the job market.

    I know there are a lot of academics here! Has anyone had a similar experience on the job market? Do you have some pieces of wisdom to share? Thanks!

    1. over educated*

      Yes I have (but I didn’t have the energy or time to hit the job market really hard while trying to finish the dissertation before the birth, so I didn’t get any interviews until the baby was a few months old). They were not a big deal at all, so I would say just don’t worry!

      The Skype interviews required getting my spouse or a family member to take the baby into another room or even out of the house, which was not a big deal. I had a few on-campus interviews, and I just told the administrator who was arranging the logistics that I was a nursing mother and would appreciate x number of y-minute breaks in a private space. It was perfectly fine and smooth and nobody made any weird comments about why I was carrying two bags or needed breaks or anything…the administrators were all lovely and gracious, and I don’t think the faculty I was interviewing with noticed or cared much. The only weird comment I got was from an administrator who asked why I changed my last name in a way I had trouble answering, which is more related to general issues women face than anything about being a new parent. So good luck, this is all doable.

      1. I woke up like this*

        Thank you for sharing your experience! I’m glad it went smoothly for you. Yay!

    2. Miss Anne Thrope*

      I interviewed at 6 months pregnant, so don’t have advice about being a new mom while interviewing. I would just tell the admin who is putting together your schedule, that you’ll need regular breaks in a private location to pump. But only mention this after you are invited to a campus interview. If you’ll be pregnant during skype interviews, do not volunteer your pregnancy then, at least that’s what I’d recommend. Good luck!

      1. I woke up like this*

        Great advice about how to time disclosure re: pumping and such! Thanks for sharing your experience.

  55. Not Me*

    Because of my husband’s promotion, we are moving. I was looking for a new job and wanted to know how this question struck you:
    “What is your top priority for your next job?
    Flexible Schedule, Option to have holiday pay or time off on holidays, Paid Time Off to use as you wish, Supplemental Benefits (Cancer, Hospital, etc.), Company Sponsored Health Plan, Casual Office Environment, Career Growth, Working for a Non Profit”

    Followed by a question about using our personal laptops and cell phones for the business. Then, a question about our current salary and our desired salary.

    Is it just me or is their a blaring red alert.

    1. Anon Accountant*

      I’d be uncomfortable using my personal laptop for their business and they should provide a laptop if needed. Being required to use your personal cell phone for a job is my pet peeve. If you are a realtor or are a sole proprietor then ok, your choice. But I despise having clients call my cell unless requested. Some are polite and some are total nuisances who will call and become hostile when you are at your kids soccer game for example. Or complain to your boss after this although it was after business hours.

      I don’t know but how was everything else? Any other potential red flags or areas of concern? Did you feel uneasy during the interviewing?

      1. Natalie*

        My former boss got calls on his personal cell for at least a year after leaving his last job. He’s gone to another company now, but I’m sure he’s still getting those calls.

    2. Anon Anon*

      Yes, major red flag to me.

      If that is an open ended question it’s a good question, but a forced choice? I wouldn’t like that at all, especially given that the options are very benefit focused.

    3. katamia*

      I use my personal laptop for my work as a freelancer/independent contractor and that’s fine, but I’d balk at using one for work where I was an employee. Same with a cell phone, although I don’t use mine for work right now.

      Was the question about the top priority for the next job multiple choice, or is that what you’re looking for in your next job?

    4. Another person*

      Any of those questions alone would be a yellow to orange alert. All three together, a blaring red alert. Run!

    5. Elizabeth West*

      NO WAY would I use my personal laptop. For a freelance position, I guess I’d have to, but for a company? Providing equipment is their business expense, not mine. Same with the phone. I don’t want the two to mix at ALL.

    6. JamieS*

      Huge red flag if the company is supposed to be for profit. Seriously though I’d be wary of the expectation to use your personal phone/computer. There’s also something about the first question I dislike but I can’t put my finger on it.

      1. Tau*

        Maybe the implication that you have a “top” priority of those, implying you could be happy with just one of them? I mean, what do they expect you to say, “as long as I have a flexible schedule, it doesn’t matter so much if I have PTO, the ability to take holidays off, health insurance, or any chance of career growth.” For me, most of the things they list are non-negotiables!

  56. Anon Accountant*

    I interviewed for a company but had went through an independent, 3rd party recruiter. The CEO explained to me as his company would be paying the recruiter a “large fee” if I’m hired, they will require me to sign a contract stating if I leave before 2 years than I must repay a portion of the fee.

    I’ve never used a recruiter before and the CEO didn’t mention the possible cost to me if I’d leave before 2 years, assuming in hired. Is this normal for a small company to ask you to repay a portion of a recruiter’s fee if you leave before a certain time frame?

    1. CAA*

      No! This is not normal! Typically the recruiter should guarantee to provide a replacement for you at no extra charge if you leave within a specific period of time. That period will not be two years though, more usually six months and maybe up to a year.

      I would not agree to take this job unless it’s your only option. If it is your only option, try to find out from a local employment lawyer if this agreement would be enforceable.

    2. Natalie*

      Nope, complete bull. Also might not be enforceable – typically contracts have to have consideration for both parties, not just one party promising to do something or pay.

      Even if he backs down on his dumb contract, don’t work for this guy. He’s giving you decent reason to assume he’s (1) a cheapskate who (2) can’t keep employees for 2 years without threatening them.

    3. periwinkle*

      Recruiter fees are the cost of using a recruiter and are normal business expenses. It’s like demanding that, if you leave before your first two years are up, you pay back the company for the desk, chair, and electricity you used while employed there. (but maybe the boss will generously allow you to keep the oxygen you used as a free parting gift)

    4. Artemesia*

      If you do decide to sign such a contract be sure it exempts you leaving because they fired you or laid you off. Otherwise they have an incentive to lay you off just before the two years runs.
      I know two people who were fired just days (in one case hours) before their right to equity in a start up would vest; they had worked almost for free for a year because ‘equity’ and then got fired before they could collect the equity. In one case the expertise set up the main infrastructure for an on line company — use em and then throw em away when yo uhave what you need.

      Be sure if you do agree that you have legal advice on the contract that protects you from their decisions.

  57. Lalaith*

    Please pardon me, but I just need to pour my heart out for a moment. For a long time – much longer than I should have let go on – I haven’t had enough work to do at my job. We were acquired by a large company awhile back, and all of their developers are overseas and cheaper than me, so no one was interested in bringing me onto new projects. I limped along taking care of the clients we brought with us, but some of them have dropped off and it’s finally to the point where I don’t have enough hours to bill. So I’ve been having meetings with HR and they’ve been asking various project managers if they have work for me, but none of them have, and as of last Friday there was one last group who was looking for something and if they didn’t come up with anything we were going to have to “talk about separation”. Well, I just got word from that group that they didn’t find anything. So that’s it.

    I thought I’d be relieved. I probably would be, if I were getting more responses to the applications I’ve been sending out. But it still hurts, and I’m worried, and I still have to have the separation conversation, which for better or worse will probably not be for another week, since I will be on vacation next week. I’m going to try to negotiate for at least 6 weeks of severance (I’ve been with the original company since 2011, we were acquired 2 years ago), and a good reference (the former owner of the original company has already agreed to give me one), and uncontested unemployment. If I can feel ok about my financial situation for a bit, it’ll be nice to have some time off. But it still sucks.

    I don’t really have a question, just venting (although if anyone has advice/commiseration/leads on web developer jobs in NYC/NJ, please share!). Thanks for listening.

    2. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      Just don’t let this play with your self esteem. Take a week off and feel sorry for yourself but then get back on the saddle start looking for jobs. Remember that this has nothing to do with you, and you are a good worker. Getting a letter of reference can go a long way. Make searching for your new job a full time job. I did and I had three job offers in two weeks plus two more “second interviews”. Take care and keep us up to date. Ill be sending pixie dust your way for good luck.

    4. Lalaith*

      Urgh. The HR people are insisting on having a “follow up” convo today. I really just wanted to ignore this for a week and have my vacation in peace. Can’t they let me have that??

      Thanks for the commiseration everyone :) Wish me luck!

      1. Lalaith*

        Aaaaaand now they’ve cancelled the meeting and we are going to do it after my vacation. Yay?

        1. Dee*

          Update next week on what happens! Stick to your guns about what you want too. Good luck.

  58. Waterlilies*

    I’ve developed a crush on a freelancer I’ve been working with who has a gf. Would it be unprofessional to not hire him anymore?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It wouldn’t be unprofessional, but it would seem completely out of the blue for him, I think. Can you remain professional in your interactions with him?

      1. Waterlilies*

        Yes. Well, I haven’t been super unprofessional, but an ex just reminded me that when I’m into someone I’m super obvious and smile a lot even when I think I’m not at all… and now I’m wondering, despite not outwardly flirting or trying to do anything, have I already made things weird?

    2. katamia*

      I don’t know if it would be officially Unprofessional, but it doesn’t seem fair to me to penalize him for something he doesn’t have any control over. If you really can’t be around him, any chance you could get a coworker to take over interactions with him, at least for a little while?

    3. JanetM*

      For what it’s worth, I have had crushes on several men I’ve worked with over the years, without them ever knowing it. I have occasionally had to sit down with my subconscious and remind it, “Look, brain, I have never in my life made advances to a man I know is unavailable, even as far back as high school, no matter how much I am attracted to him. Stop delivering nightmares where I am a heartless home-wrecker and everyone ends up miserable including me.”

      1. Lurker*

        Yuck. Sounds pretty unfair to me if you’d otherwise hire him.

        How would it sound if a female freelancer couldn’t get hired b/c she was too attractive and her potential employers kept having crushes on her?

        The professional thing is to leave your emotions out of a professional relationship. You shouldn’t be in charge of hiring people if you can’t.

  59. Buffy Summers*

    So, I will be starting my MBA program soon. Should that go on my resume after my name, like Buffy Summers, MBA?
    Or just under the education section?
    What about email signatures? Does it come across weird to do that?
    I’m very seriously considering moving out of the accounting/finance career track. I’d like to move into HR, but I’m not sure about it just yet. If I stay with accounting, I’ll pursue my CPA, but if I’m able to break into HR work, I would pursue my PHR. (Is that right? or is it SPHR?)
    Regardless of what I might do, should my name be listed as Buffy Summers, MBA, CPA or Buffy Summers MBA, PHR or simply with CPA or PHR and drop the MBA?
    And can I require all my coworkers to call me Master after I’ve gotten the degree?? (that’s a joke. mostly…)

    1. TeapotSweaterCrocheter*

      I don’t have an MBA, but I do work in HR and have my PHR! I can tell you that the generally accepted rule of thumb is to not put the letters after your name (on anything – resume, email, etc.) until you have actually earned whatever degree or certification it is. However, if you feel strongly about putting it on your resume, I would understand something like this:

      — MBA, Teapot University (projected Spring 2019)

      That way it’s clear that it is a current program and not a degree you already have. In the same vein, I’d leave it off your email signature until you have the degree. Once you have the degree, I’ve seen both ways in email signatures (with and without). It doesn’t seem as necessary to me on an email signature as on a resume/cover letter, but YMMV.

      As far as the PHR/SPHR, it depends on your level of work experience combined with your education. I don’t remember exactly, but it’s something like 2-5 years of experience with a Bachelors degree is a PHR, and 5+ years of experience OR 4+ with a Masters or above is an SPHR (HRCI.org will have the exact specs).

      If and when you get those, I’d list the MBA first, but you can definitely keep the CPA or PHR at the end. I definitely would not drop the MBA. So you’d be Buffy Summers, MBA, PHR.

      1. Buffy Summers*

        Thanks. I didn’t specify that I was asking this for after I’d earned my degree and those other designations. Sorry about that! I wouldn’t put it after my name until after I’ve graduated..on a resume, I would just list it under education like you’ve put it above while I’m still in pursuit of the degree.
        I thought the PHR was the higher of the two. So, SPHR is what I’d want.
        Thanks for the reply and the advice! :)

        1. Options*

          Just throwing in that I have been in HR for 15+ years and have a SPHR, SHRM-SCP, CLRP and am almost done with my MBA. I, like most of my colleagues, do not put their credentials after their name on email signatures or business cards, but do include them on resumes and/or professional bios. That’s the norm in the industry that I work in, but may be different in yours.

      2. Lizard*

        I’m in consulting (so different than you but still same environment Id assume) and I find it weird to have someone’s degree after their name BUT not certifications. So if you earn a relevant cert I’d say do it but not with an MBA (I have a grad degree too and never have).

    2. NoCalHR*

      Hi!

      Echoing others, once you’ve earned the degree and/or certification, it’s appropriate to add it to your signature. The PHR is the ‘junior’ HR certification from the HR Certification Institute; the SPHR is the ‘senior’ certification. Similarly, the CP is the ‘junior’ certification from SHRM, and the SCP is the ‘senior’ certification.

      As a matter of practice, list your academic degree first, then your professional certifications in the order they were earned, dropping the ‘junior’ certifications when the ‘senior’ cert is earned and awarded. Fair warning – certifications can become addictive – my formal signature reads NoCalHR, Ph.D., SPHR, SHRM-SCP, WLCP. ;~)

    3. Hillary*

      I don’t put MBA after my name, it’s just in the education section of my resume. The optics of having it after your name aren’t great in the faux modest Midwest. The people who matter at my company all know about it,

      Around here you usually only include letters that include professional obligations, and only then if you’re in a relevant role. Someone with a CPA in a finance role will include it, but not if they’re in marketing. It’s the same with lawyers, especially lawyers working for legal firms in non-legal roles.

    4. MissGirl*

      While I was getting my MBA, I had “MBA Candidate” under my name on my resume and LinkedIn. I haven’t yet decided how to treat it now that I have it. I work in healthcare, however, and I notice a lot of my colleagues have their letters after their name. Healthcare tends to value grad degrees more so. Good luck on your degree.

  60. Ann*

    Would love input. I am very uncomfortable when my supervisor makes comments about other staff she supervises, for example, about a new hire on day 3 with no training yet, “I think she oversold herself, I don’t know if she is going to work out.” Or I mentioned that another new hire who was being trained might not know a simple procedure. Supervisor got, imho, overly upset, ranted a bit about “I told her, gave her this info sheet,” etc. I have no idea if I have a good relationship with my supervisor or not, sometimes she says great things about me, sometimes I think she does not like me at all. I am learning a lot from AAM about how to deal with this. But I do want to not hear about coworkers faults. Am I being too sensitive about this and just need to ignore it? What can I say to stop this without damaging a relationship I am not sure of?

    1. Anonfornow*

      I don’t have any advice, but this happens with my boss sometimes and it feels unprofessional to me! I don’t know what to say, although sometimes I’ll defend them (if, of course, I know them well enough to defend them). Sometimes, she’ll say negative things about them that have applied to me, but because I seem to be the “favorite,” it doesn’t bother her when I do it. “Well you have good reasons for that!” type of thing. Defending my coworkers (when appropriate) does make me feel better about it, and it causes her to stop and think about what she is saying, but otherwise.. I don’t have much advice! But I completely empathize with the awkwardness.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, really not professional to talk about staff with others like that.

      For your own awareness, I would figure the supervisor talked about me behind my back the way she talks about others to me. This way you won’t get lulled into a possibly false belief.
      No, you are not being too sensitive but yes, you do need to find ways to side step the remark or ignore it.
      There are no magic bullets to stop the comments and most definitely no one can tell you that you won’t damage the uncertain relationship that you have if you try.

      So where does that put you?
      You can try having some go-to sentences lined up:
      “I am sorry to hear that.”
      “Gee, that is too bad.”
      “Oh I was hoping that worked out okay.”

      Over a long period of time, bosses like this can cause work places to be dysfunctional as everyone is vying to be on the boss’ good side for the next five minutes.
      You could try saying, “Gee, if I do something like that I hope you tell me so I can fix it [avoid doing again, etc].”
      In other words there may be times where you can seize the opportunity to tell her how you would like to be treated and maybe it would give her ideas.

    3. Girasol*

      I once told a manager, “You’ve been telling me about your concerns over Fergus. I really shouldn’t have that information.” It seemed like a gentle way to set boundaries and it did seem to help. At the same time, I knew from Fergus that she was complaining about my shortcomings to him, too, so the lack of discretion went both ways.

  61. Dzhymm, BfD*

    I feel like I need the equivalent of “Captain Awkward” for business owners. I am in need of some scripts.

    See, my business makes custom teapots. Right now, we’re selling them out of our storefront to individual customers. The problem is that selling teapots in onesie-twosies to little old ladies is only barely paying the bills. I’d like to start selling teapots commercially to catering companies, restaurants, hotels, and the like. The trouble is, I’m totally paralyzed when it comes to picking up the phone and drumming up the business. I’m so new to the commercial side of things that I’m terrified that I’ll come across as an obvious n00b and just end up embarrassing myself. Thoughts?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      This is not my area of expertise at all (but I have watched a lot of The Profit). I think you should start small and local. Go to local catering companies that have a solid reputation and give them a pitch. Bring a variety of your teapots and see what they think — maybe consider doing a special teapot just for a special partnership for one of The Best Catering Companies in the city (you know, the one that all the people know as the best because Delicious). I imagine that anything local to your area will be an easier sell than trying for Giant Corporate Hotel right now, although as you build a reputation, you may be able to get your foot in the door there too. Don’t forget about places like bed and breakfasts though.

      Talk about the story of your company, what makes your teapot unique and different from other teapots, what your production process is like, and how (if they have a retail space) they could sell them for a retail price of X. And if they place an order for [reasonable amount of teapots for company size], you could have them ready in X-Y weeks.

      Whatever you do, practice your pitch from walking in the door to close. Practice alone. Practice with a friend. And know that your first pitch is going to be a little shaky, but you’ll improve the more you do it. And tell people that you’re looking for new business opportunities! It’s amazing what word of mouth can do for you. And your local companies have been in the same place as you, so they should be understanding that you’re trying to get your foot in the door. Good luck!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Think of it as trial and error. Reach out to a few prospective client ans know that you won’t get it 100% right. As long as you don’t embarrass yourself by doing something wildly inappropriate, you’ll be OK.
      One of my old bosses sold a doodad to Cracker Barrel. They walked her through the whole process…which was extensive, but they helped her.

    3. Girasol*

      Can you imagine the chat with your potential customers and craft some scripts for yourself? It always helps me to imagine a situation and prepare my words ahead of time when I’m not under pressure. If you’re planning to start your sales by phone you have the advantage of having your script in front of you.

  62. katamia*

    Looking for more UK grad school help. I’m struggling with the timetable difference (everything feels like it’s happening soooooooooooo much later and faster than it would be if I were going to a US grad school, lol) and trying to figure out when I need to do everything. The grad program I got into is a one-year program, and their website says many people in this program have jobs or internships in the field while also taking classes. I definitely want to do this. Is this the kind of thing I should tell the department in advance? Should I be trying to have something lined up before the first term starts, or is this something where I’d be better off waiting until I move there (maybe 2-3 weeks before classes start)?

    From their academic calendar, it looks like they might not be open right now, and they haven’t responded to another question I asked them this week, so I think it might take a bit to get an answer from them.

    1. fposte*

      Is it clear that non-EU students can get jobs? I don’t know if there are program loopholes, but I wouldn’t think the chance is high there. If you can’t get an answer from the school, you might be able to check with the embassy or consulate near you for info.

      1. katamia*

        Yeah, I’ve looked on the embassy website and it looks like I’ll be able to work up to 20 hours a week with the visa I’m applying for.

      2. The real Olivia Benson*

        Yeah non EU students can get jobs on a tier 4 visa but it’s restricted to 20? Hrs a week.

        I would say to phone them although it’s now 6 pm UK time time. I work for UG admissions and we are quite busy just now and so some emails haven’t been answered within the 20 (working) days we aim for unofficially.

        It’s also the weekend and we don’t work weekends or after hours as a general rule so Monday is your next possible response date.

        You also sent the email to the right dept? ( we get lots not for us!)

        2. katamia*

          They had a “click here to go to this query page on our website” link in an email they sent me for the other question I asked (not related to working/interning over there), so I hope my question went to the right place, lol.

          1. The real Olivia Benson*

            Ah see we have one of those and it goes to student recruitment and *then* gets passed along to us (sometimes it’s not for us!) and sometimes it has been a wee while since the original enquiry – I think they get ALL enquiries – but we also have a general admissions email for our college (arts & humanities). See if you can find the dept email for your graduate course. Or failing that, the uni should have a US representative – contact them as well.

            1. The real Olivia Benson*

              Sorry I must-read your comment. It should be if you clicked the link in an email it went to the right place. Call them. Expensive but quicker. Or maybe they sent it to another dept if they don’t deal with it. I would try and find the dept email though and re-send but it could be they are busy right now.

  63. ModernHypatia*

    Question: Do you all have favourite phrases/methods/etc. for communicating schedule needs/limits to people (visiting researchers, in our case) that work well for you? More details follow.

    My library has research visitors 1-3 days most months. We’re an unusual set-up: a special library attached to a school (and in the same building as high school classes) and a small staff (3 people total). Visitors need to be escorted at all times in our building, plus we follow the common archives practice of researchers needing to be observed while using materials, so visits limit at least one staff person’s day a lot.

    Researchers work in my office, and we have a solution (a webcam) that means I can take quick breaks with a little coordination with other staff, but basically I need to be at my desk the entire time someone is working, and can’t make phone calls/have meetings/work on some kinds of projects then. We like our researchers (they’re often working on fascinating things!) but they’re a small part of our overall workload.

    We’ve had repeated issues with research visitors not understanding we’ve set time aside for them, and so they should do their best to clearly communicate time (if they’re running late, need more/less time, any schedule changes on their end) so we can plan ahead. I’d like to improve this.

    Currently, we:
    – Send a 4 page PDF file with info about visiting (spelling out our setup and rules, schedule, contact info, information about available resources, nearby food and transportation, a map.)
    – Email 3-5 days before the visit asking them to confirm when they expect to arrive, their schedule, and double-check materials they’ve asked for.
    – Check in with them when they arrive, walk through some specific things about our space, sign an agreement for archives materials use, and explain the webcam, plus the day’s schedule (when we’re breaking for lunch, etc.)

    Even with this, we still have people who show up late without warning (often 60-90+ minutes), want to change their schedules on very short notice, or are surprised by a break/limit they’ve been told about well in advance.

    Tips for any improvements in this process, phrasing that’s worked really well for you for similar kinds of boundaries/limits, etc. would be very welcome. We obviously want to be flexible, but also want to not be tied to our desk/phone waiting for someone when we don’t need to be.

    1. Simone R*

      Could you just put a line in an early email saying “unfortunately, due to our small staff we are unable to accommodate last minute schedule changes? If something in your plans change, please let us know at your earliest convenience.”

      I don’t think there’s any problem with being straightforward here.

      1. ModernHypatia*

        We’ve got a line about “Because of our small staff, we’ll do our best to accommodate last minute changes, but it may limit the time or materials available for your visit.” which is more or less what we’d like. We get that things sometimes happen, and since most of them are from out of town, not always entirely under their control.

        The bigger issue is people who turn up noticeably late and/or have other expectations about things like breaks or a stated limit, or who completely misjudge how much time they need with materials.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      A four-page PDF is quite long and I do wonder how many people are actually reading it. You’ve given a really clear, succinct explanation in your post here – why not send them that, in an email that doesn’t require them to open a further attachment? Otherwise, I think you need to get those four pages down to one.

      1. ModernHypatia*

        I think getting some key stuff into an initial email is something I can do – but the information in the sheet is mostly stuff we have repeated questions about (and that for various reasons isn’t a good fit for putting on our bit of the website, since it’s basically only relevant to researchers we’ve already scheduled a visit for.)

        Our collection focuses on a particular sensory impairment, and a number of the people who do research with us either have that impairment or have other accessibility needs. Our campus culture is to provide lots of info so people can make informed choices about their plans, but that’s not something a lot of people are used to, even if it’s a good idea. (And we believe in modeling talking about this stuff.)

        But it seems like the answer is ‘send the file, but expand what I say when sending it in email to hit the major points’.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Rather than expanding, I’d try to be more succinct and focus on the most important points.

          You wrote the PDF because people ask those questions but it doesn’t necessarily follow that people with questions are reading the PDF. Time for a user survey perhaps?

          1. ModernHypatia*

            By expanded, I meant “spell out what’s in the file a little more than I have been”.

            I’ve got a draft now of short paragraph (“Sending a longer file, please read it, we’re not like other places in several important ways”, basically) and a 5 point bullet point list that hits the major issues (we’re scheduling around your visit, our hours for researchers, that visitors must be escorted and to arrange in advance if they’d like to see our museum, that there are limited food options and to see the file for details, and a sentence about photos/scanning/restrictions. And then a sentence saying that other options may be available if you ask us in advance.

            Along with that, I’d have confirmation of their specific dates/times, any questions about materials they’ve asked for so far, etc.

            I’m poking at some rearrangement of the file now, which has turned up two things I need to edit due to shifts in policy, so that’s handy.

        2. Fabulous*

          If the 4 pages are needed, I think reformatting the PDF would be advantageous. Page 1 would be the most important info and the rest of the pages could be an FAQ list or something.

    3. JeanB in NC*

      I don’t know, it sounds like you’re doing everything you can – some people just don’t pay attention. I would just get comfortable saying no, you can’t make changes just because they are late.

      1. ModernHypatia*

        I’ve been fine with “No, this is the schedule” once they get here.

        The thing I’ve been increasingly frustrated by is needing to stay by my desk in case the receptionist calls, and then realising I’ve been waiting for them to show up for 60+ minutes, and could have gone into the stacks to get materials for other projects during that time. (Or, y’know, run to the bathroom or done anything else out of the range of my phone.)

        1. Fabulous*

          In those cases, I think it’d be fine to just do what you need to do and if you miss the call, they can wait for you to get back. They made you wait in the first place!

    4. Leena Wants Cake*

      Agree that the 4 page list of policies is probably a bit long. Recommend cutting that down a bit.

      Also: what about having researchers sign the use agreement in advance and adding your time limitations to this document? Maybe having them sign an agreement that they understand the schedule will help them take it more seriously?

      1. ModernHypatia*

        We already have them fill out a form (before scheduling the visit) and sign a form about the actual archives use materials, so I’m not entirely sure another form will help here.

        (There’s also often a significant space – weeks, months – between someone scheduling and when they actually visit, which is why we’ve started the reminder email 3-5 days in advance.)

    5. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      What about sending them a succinct schedule? Something that outlined the day, in addition to the 4 page in depth document. It could b laid out a bit visually, like a table or color coded or something for all those people who will glance at stuff but not take the time to read details. Maybe it would be clear that there’s only so much that can be done if they are late. If a schedule says you have research access 9-12, lunch 12-1, and research access 1-3, you would think it would be clear that if they come strolling in at 10:15, they now only have research access for and hour and 45 minutes. But who knows? Inconsiderate people tend to remain inconsiderate.

    6. ..Kat..*

      This is such a time waster for you that perhaps it would be worth your time to make a phone call a week in advance to verify their time slot and remind them about showing up on time.

  64. Emotionally Neutral*

    Broad question, open to discussion: Are there ever situations in which working in a particular field or environment closes off either personal or professional opportunities for the worker? Do you have any experience with that?

    Background: I currently work in a field that is very involved with government and business sectors that are generally not friendly to certain activist groups. I’ve been involved with activism on a personal level since before my employment I’m worried my field or employer may hurt my credibility or make me seem untrustworthy if I try to get more involved. Is that fear legitimate or unfounded?

    1. Roman Holiday*

      I think there are absolutely times this could happen – some sectors/organisations are diametrically opposed to each other and they have philosophical differences that are never going to be totally resolved. For example, if you’re working for a coal mining company, you might be greeted with a lot of side-eye at a climate change activist event (not trying to pick a fight here, just trying for an example of two opposing areas). In my professional capacity, I occasionally have clients whose activities I oppose on a personal level and sometimes it’s kind of an uneasy balance. On the activism side though, I’ve found that most people are willing to engage with people from unexpected backgrounds in the name of garnering support for their cause and maybe learning about what makes the opposition tick – especially if you’re sincere about it. Like, “yes, my company does X and Y, which I have reservations about, but I’ve been able to do some really interesting work on Z, which ties into whatever sector of activism you’re interested in.”

    2. Ms. Anon*

      I’ve had this, but it’s because of the creep factor of my profession. Think of cadaver research or Medical Examiner. People are put off when they find out I work with the dead. Some interviewers are just terrified of death and can’t handle it.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Me too! I was so disappointed when I found out that if I want to donate to the body farm I can never visit it.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed and we are very distrustful of people who work/worked at for-profit schools. Just one example from my industry.

      1. Ann O.*

        I’ve seen multiple say that, and I’ve always wondered why. Academia is such a tough job market that some people are simply going to have to take a job at a for-profit to keep bills paid.

        1. Anxa*

          I’m not sure about higher ed, but I think in a way you kind of answer yourself in your own comment regarding academia. It is just so very hard to break into, and also very insular.

          Plus, they have so many other quirks. Like, my SO is seriously debating teaching a class next year because he wants to be professor and is worried about having adjuncting experience tarnishing his CV.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I think it’ll depend on how you respond and what you do. If you go to a rally and say “I’m a SHIELD agent, and I know some of us are Hydra, but I’m not and I support what you’re trying to do” then most folks will be okay, assuming you’re not spending a lot of time defending the point of view of your employers. Frankly, a lot of groups I know would be supportive, in that they’d consider it a win that someone associated with the ‘enemy’ is on their side.
      Though I’d suggest figuring out how you’re going to respond to questions like “How do you morally deal w/ working for an organization that was 50% Hydra and tried to kill Captain America?” and recognize there are probably people that won’t accept any answer other than “You’re right, I’d be better off quitting and moving to Wakanda and/or crashing the hellicarriers into DC.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s a legit fear.

      I think that many activist groups expect their members’ walk to match their talk. A pro-animal group is probably going to frown on leather shoes, etc.
      The reason for this is because they want to know that we have actually thought about the Cause and have tried in our own personal lives to live in alignment with what the Cause supports.

  65. Anne*

    You guys. If you are applying for a job that requires writing samples:

    1. For the love of god, put your name in the file name.

    2. For the love of god, put your name at the top of the document.

    3. For the love of god, don’t send a 20 page document. (I forgot to specify, but come on, common sense!)

    Sincerely,

    A person who just spent the morning renaming a dozen documents named “writing sample,” writing peoples’ names on the PDF printouts, and skimming a couple of complete grant proposals sent as writing samples

    1. Ann*

      If you told them to properly name the files and put their names in the doc and they did not, I would put them in the no pile.

      1. Anne*

        I didn’t – I just foolishly assumed that this was a known thing! Next time I’ll know better. (I’m not a Hiring Person, but we’re expanding my department of one to a department of two, so I was put in charge of the screening interviews and writing exercise.)

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think it’s a known thing. People do the same thing with resume filenames all the time, and I accept 20-page writing samples for short work. So while I share your eyeroll at having to rename a bunch of files, I think if it’s important to us we need to remember to ask for it :-).

        2. Artemesia*

          It does tempt one to just put them in the ‘no’ pile. I used to joke about the airport test i.e. someone who doesn’t know how to connect with someone picking them up at the airport is not going to be much fun to work with. e.g. I was picking up someone waiting at the exit to the gate and he literally just stomped on by without looking left or right. Yes he turned out to be dense all around. If you don’t know how to look like someone looking for your ride, what else don’t you know? If you don’t know that an attachment has to have your name in it to make it easier on the person receiving it, what else don’t you know?

    2. punkwich*

      what type of writing sample do you prefer? as a research assistant I apply to jobs that require them and generally send a full research paper but should I be sending a sample only?

      1. Anne*

        Oh, I’d hate to give you bad advice on this because I’m in communications and nonprofit development! The job description specifies that the job would involve writing a lot of social media and email content, as well as some grant-related writing. When I apply for jobs like that, even if they don’t specify, I usually assume they want a 2-4 page sample, like an excerpt from a proposal instead of the entire thing. But now that I know this isn’t always what people assume, I’ll definitely be more specific next time.

      2. Artemesia*

        If it is a research paper, at least make sure you have a truly excellent abstract at the top of it. They can read the abstract, skim the paper and turn to the charts and graphs and references to assess it.

    3. Danae*

      If you’re asking for writing samples, definitely be specific on what kind of writing samples you need and how long they should be. I got a request last week for writing samples for a nonprofit communications job, and I ended up having to follow up and clarify what they were looking for. It turned out that they wanted a *lot* of samples–I ended up sending them two fundraising emails, two event announcement emails, a longer article, and two news roundups. That ended up being probably 30 pages total.

      1. Anne*

        Definitely will in the future! And, no one is gonna get marked down for this, it was just annoying to deal with (mostly the first two things).

        1. Hrovitnir*

          I sympathise! I’m always very careful to put my name and what it is in file names for any kind of application. I can see how you wouldn’t think about it but no one wants to deal with piles of vaguely titled paperwork.

        2. Dankar*

          Also sympathizing (I did this a couple of months ago for a job search my dept was conducting), but there are some situations in which applicants are told NOT to put identifying info on their writing samples, as they’ll be assigned a number or some other way of letting the committee judge impartially. It’s rare, but I’ve seen it once or twice. Perhaps they’re used to that convention (and not just lazy..?)

          Another point to add , though:

          If you are required to submit a writing sample, for the love of god, have someone else look over it for edits!

    5. Bibliovore*

      AND
      put your name in the file name of your resume and cover letter.
      Do NOT name your file resume and cover letter.

      1. This Daydreamer*

        Oh. Um. Oops.

        At least I got the job! I don’t think there were very many candidates which probably simplified life greatly for the hiring folks.

  66. Jimbo*

    Your tips on best ways to determine and questions to ask the hiring manager to gauge “fit” and whether a prospective job is the right setting for you if it is an out of state job and you’ve only had phone or conference call interviews?

  67. NEW YEAR, NEW ME*

    I freelance but I’ve been looking to return to a staff position, but at the same time, I’m dragging my feet. My reason why is that I’ve had to deal with a lot of personality issues at my previous employers. At my first company, I had to work with snotty, catty, and downright nasty women (one in which was hell-bent on destroying my reputation any chance she got, but was either ignored or giving a scolding). My second company had a clique. Before my layoff, I walked past three colleagues, with one of them asking if I wasn’t supposed to have a job after a major conference. Granted, I’ve worked various temp jobs since then but I worry about handling similar scenarios within a FT setting. How can I change this mindset? I get wrapped up in my work a lot, but I’m friendly toward everyone. I probably come across as awkward or weird but it’s just my way of being self-protective.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh, yeah, this is hard.

      You can remind yourself that just as you want a chance to prove yourself, others deserve a chance to prove themselves to you. Decide they are NOT jerks until they prove to you that they are. If you feel yourself tensing up remind yourself that they have to PROVE they are jerks before you will start to worry.

      Another thing you can do is if you end up in a toxic environment like the first example, is promise yourself that you will get yourself out of there. Some places are just not worth the effort we put in. Don’t make yourself stay if you are getting crapped on day after day, find a way out.

      OTH, you can use is to decide to find a way to handle the comment. Nothing feels worse than standing there defenseless as a comment sails right at us. In your second example, you could have flashed a big grin and said “two more weeks!” (or other time frame) and kept walking. Just answer the question as a straight question. If you feel the question is loaded with “background” ignore the implications and answer in a straight forward manner.
      Sometimes we can neutralize a snide remark by pretending not to see the snide-ness embedded in the remark. It makes the other person give up.

      And try to keep in mind that many people feel awkward and feel like they need to protect themselves. You are not alone in this. You can watch for these folks and give them little bits of encouragement here and there. It’s something a positive to focus on.

  68. Loopy*

    A friend is hoping to apply for a magazine position that asks for a writing sample. She’s working in publishing now so hasn’t written magazine articles she can submit. I have no idea what qualifies as a writing sample for applications? Can you use academic essays? Work reports?

    Also is it acceptable to email to ask for more detail on what kind of writing they will accept?

    1. Jo*

      Definitely ask! And include a few options of the types of work she has available to send. (Don’t just send several if they only asked for one, though.)

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      What type of role at the magazine is it? I think that factors into the type of sample she sends.

      I recently applied for a marketing specialist job that required two writing samples. I haven’t done a lot of customer-facing writing lately (I write a lot, but it’s all internal instructional/technical writing and business email) so I dusted off some work from a marketing class I took 3-4 years back. Because the role I applied for requires communicating both with and on behalf of clients, I included a blog post that demonstrated a more casual, conversational voice, and a marketing plan excerpt with more of a straightforward business-y style.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      If it’s for a magazine then absolutely do not send academic essays. That will go in the no pile.

      If she hasn’t done this kind of writing before, she should get some copies of the magazine she’s applying to and write something in their style to fit one of their slots.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I just realised I’m assuming she’s applying for a position that involves writing for the magazine. But the advice stands. If it’s a marketing role, look at some of their marketing materials and emulate those. Etc.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Ooh yes, in that case definitely write in the style of the magazine. A contributing editor means you are a contributing writer to the magazine and are either more senior, more valued, or more well-known than people who are just referred to as writers. It doesn’t necessarily mean you have editorial responsibilities, but it can do.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I’m trying not to be too debbie-downer but when I worked at a magazine we wouldn’t even consider hiring someone who hasn’t written professionally before for a contributing editor role. They tend to be seasoned writers.

      2. Amtelope*

        +1

        Experience in publishing is probably not going to be sufficient for this role; “contributing editor” is usually a senior writing position, not really an editorial position (or, at least, it’s as much a senior writing position as it is an editorial position). It’s not the same thing as an associate editor job.

      3. Loopy*

        Thanks to everyone for clarifying! I have passed all this on to my friend. I’m so glad I wrote in! I certainly had absolutely no sense that this was more writer than editor! :)

  69. Confused Publisher*

    I’ve just completed 3 months at my new job, and it’s been this wonderful (and steep) learning curve. One of the things I’ve appreciated most of all is the level of autonomy I have to make decisions that were always made for me by my micro-manager at my old job. On the theme of taking bad habits or hangovers from old jobs to new ones, me taking things to my new manager for approval even when I know what I’m doing came up as something I needed to work on a bit more whereas I was on track or ahead of schedule on all my other objectives.
    How have other people gotten over the hangover from being micro-managed (when they really really didn’t thrive under that style) when they’ve changed jobs? I really like my new manager and I want to do well on her team, but I’m still permanently second-guessing what I should do on my own initiative and what I should check first about!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Have you talked to your manager? If not, maybe that’s a place to start.

      I can relate, as I used to work for some toxic micromanager types and ended up going freelance for years and thinking I’d never be able to stand being managed again. I’ve gone back to full-time work now and I’m still adjusting on the one hand to working for people who don’t micromanage but on the other hand to actually having a manager again. With my first manager in this role I just sort of muddled along but got it wrong a few times – sometimes not being autonomous enough and sometimes cutting her out of the loop when I actually shouldn’t have. I got a new manager recently and took the opportunity to actually have a discussion about this, especially as we’re not both in the office on all the same days. We’ve talked through examples of when I might involve her and when it’s okay not to, which helped a lot. Also, maybe a step back and ask first. Don’t just go to your manager for approval on the peppermint teapots – ask if you need to get their approval, and why or why not.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, to all this.
        And definitely find out the reasoning behind when you ask and when you don’t ask in a given instance.
        I got a new job in a very different arena. I had no orientation. But I have a good boss.
        I started with the most frequently occurring questions. Get those under control. Know when you have to ask and WHY you have to ask.
        Then I moved down the line, asking about the things that occur less often.

        There are things that come up at work, that I just am not comfortable having final say. I prefer my boss to review it. We discussed what types of things I prefer to have her review on. Some of it she does not agree that I need her review, but she will review it anyway.
        We have been working this way for almost five years now. My questions have evolved to just HARD questions with lots of layers of complexity. And this is my last point, don’t expect to resolve this in one day or one week. Just keep working at it and you will get into the swing of knowing what the new boss wants. Both of you have to get to know each other.

  70. Jo*

    Second interview today with the higher-ups at an org I would very much like to work with. Fingers crossed.

    If I get this job, it will be largely because AAM helped me write a truly kickass cover letter!

  71. Temperance*

    I had my annual review this week, and received a nice raise and bonus. I’m very pleased. My boss also asked me what else I would like, because they are invested in keeping me.

    What would you ask for? I already have a flexible schedule and a good amount of PTO.

    1. PB*

      It depends on the job and your needs. Additional travel funding, perhaps? I’m just back from a series of conferences, and that stuff adds up! Is there additional training you’d like? Increased responsibility?

    2. Keladry of Mindelan*

      Not sure if this is included in the flexible schedule, but perhaps the ability to work from home or remotely a few times a week?

    5. AndersonDarling*

      Education allowance, software that would make your job easier, an assistant, process changes, or asking if someone else could do that one task you hate doing.

  72. 42*

    I came upon this fascinating post yesterday while scrolling through LinkedIn, and thought it was worth sharing here:

    ____________________________

    “I interviewed a candidate yesterday and can’t get him out of my head.

    He wasn’t a rock star, purple squirrel, or any other absurd term. He didn’t wow me or change my world view. He did, however, leave an impression. He was forthcoming, honest, articulate, and lit up when he talked about the things he was passionate about. He seemed very genuine to me.

    When I was filling out the interview forms, I began to compare him to others that I’ve interviewed and in turn to doubt myself about whether or not to push him forward. After talking with one of the other interviewers, we came to the same conclusion: he’s not earth-shattering, but there’s something there.

    I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what it will become. I don’t know if I made the right decision with pushing him forward. But my gut tells me he’s special. We had him meet with a director and that director felt it (or something like it) too. So we offered him the job.

    We don’t know how this will turn out, but we know he’s worth a shot and possibly much more.

    We have to stop putting people side by side and instead let them stand alone. We have to see them for who they are outside of what we want them to be. We need to be willing to take chances on people.

    I’m excited to see if we’re right about him.”

    2. Emi.*

      This sounds very charming and all, but nevertheless like an odd approach to hiring. If you have more candidates than positions, what does it even mean to let each of them stand alone? Any decision you make will be the result of a comparison.

        1. Emi.*

          Mostly this: “We have to stop putting people side by side and instead let them stand alone. We have to see them for who they are outside of what we want them to be.”
          If you’re actually making hiring decisions (not just doing early winnowing like fposte mentions), you have to compare people with each other, and you have to assess whether they can be “what you want them to be,” which is good at their jobs. It sounds like the writer is making it more personal than hiring really is–(not) hiring someone generally isn’t about who s/he is anyway, or it shouldn’t be.
          I also think the “my gut tells me he’s special” angle is strange. Maybe he is special (and I agree with fposte that his specialness doesn’t sound very mysterious), but it sounds like the writer is recommending that more hiring managers adopt a mystical-gut kind of strategy. That strikes me as a bad idea, since so many people’s guts are attuned not to actual specialness, but to upper-class accents or random noise.

      2. fposte*

        I’m puzzling over this one a little too, but I think it’s specific to recruiting or early stages of field-winnowing rather than actually to hiring. The person apparently usually wouldn’t recommend somebody with this particular resume for moving on to the next phase but decided based on the soft skills and potential that it was worthwhile.

        Part of why I’m puzzling is that I think this is actually pretty common, and that I think mostly “there’s something there” is actually pretty quantifiable and in fact the piece quantifies it, so it’s being made out to be more mystical than it is.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          It puzzles me too. I would always choose the honest, passionate candidate. Even if another candidate had more experience, if they gave sales pitches and I caught them in a misrepresentation, I don’t care how great they look on paper.

          1. fposte*

            I think one possibility is the writer is a bit of a novice at process reflection, especially for early career people. I hire a lot of early career people, so the kind of evaluation that piece is talking about is pretty standard–we’re constantly considering what’s this level of engagement, how quick does their learning curve seem, can they bring a wider vision to what their job can do even if the job itself isn’t high level. (And honestly, my worldview is pretty hard to shake in an interview for an early career job, so I’m never holding out for that.)

            And I think the “be willing to take chances on people” is puzzling and maybe disingenuous, since they didn’t articulate what the chance was and they’re not talking about taking chances on people who don’t light up in the interview, so those chances are only available to a select few.

            So it’s possible that the writer meant “Usually we require a score of 10 on our Excel skills test and we decided to bend it in this case because of the candidate’s great soft skills,” and that’d be an interesting thing to do and to hear more about. But as written, it just sounded like a pretty standard hiring that was couched as exceptional for reasons I’m not clear on.

  73. Convince Boss to Let Me Work from Home*

    Some of my department has “grandfathered” flexible schedules (like working four 10’s or a one day a week work from home arrangement) from before our boss was hired. My boss has allowed these to continue, but has said she frowns upon any new employees having this arrangement. I had a great performance review and I don’t think the double standards are fair. Any ideas on how I can get something like this approved? I am seeing some people getting better treatment over others and I am thinking about leaving over it, so I might as well try this first before I take action!

    1. LCL*

      Are you thinking of leaving because you think it is unfair that the company has a double standard and everyone should be treated equally, or do you think it’s unfair because you can’t get the same deal? Be very clear in your head what the answer is, than make your argument based on that. Because if you go in saying ‘this company has a double standard and it sucks and BTW can I have some of that good part of the standard’ it isn’t very credible. If you can figure out how 4/10s and work from home benefit the company, and argue that, you may get somewhere.

      I have seen groups destroy any chance of getting a 4/10 schedule when management was willing to negotiate one by arguing everybody should work the same 4/10 schedule. If everyone is working Monday through Thursday, even though it is two hours longer each day, you haven’t increased coverage you have decreased it because you have reduced it to nothing on Friday. If everyone that has 4/10s is already working Monday thru Thursday, argue in favor of you working Tuesday through Friday to cover the gaps caused by the existing 4/10s and you might get somewhere.

      You need to find out why your boss objects to work from home. You can’t negotiate intelligently without this knowledge. Be careful you aren’t seen by your coworkers as bringing about an end to work from home for everybody, that would make your time there miserable.

    2. Temperance*

      Why don’t you ask your boss for this? Make it about you, not all other new employees. I think it’s BS that some people get better schedules/favorable treatment.

    3. Hrovitnir*

      Eugh. I would probably approach it from the “this isn’t fair [for everyone]” angle, but “I want this thing” might be more effective. My partner has argued extensively with the other managers about this kind of thing, and as it is he offers the same contracts to new employees but the other branches give less benefits regardless and sort of shrug at his arguments. :(

  74. Making myself nuts...*

    Grad school applications:
    –1st school sent an acceptance letter 1 full week before they said I should expect it. At least 2 more weeks until 2nd school will have a decision.
    –1st school wants response within 5 days according to the notification from the admissions person (AP) I’ve been working with. She knows I am waiting for the 2nd response and is aware of their timeline.
    –I am reluctant to contact the AP from the 2nd school because she was very clear about the timeline and I told her I was okay with it.
    –My preference is the 2nd school but I don’t want to lose the 1st school in case I am not accepted to the 2nd.

    GAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

    Are better job opportunities worth this stress?

    2. Roman Holiday*

      Grad school is all about stress! I’m not saying this is a 100% ethical idea, but I do know a few people who have accepted the offer from School 1 and paid the initial deposit (sometimes they’re really nominal amounts!) to hold their place, knowing that if School 2 accepts them, they’ll eat the cost of the deposit. I know it’s not an option for everyone, especially if the deposits are not in fact nominal, but if that’s the case it might help reduce your stress level. Good luck with grad school!

      1. Here we go again*

        I don’t think that paying the deposit and than changing your mind is unethical. It’s no different than dropping a class during the semester. You are just paying to hold your spot and many schools do have a refund period because these things do change.

    3. Here we go again*

      I would just let the school know that you are still waiting to hear back from another school before making a decision and would like a deadline. I would avoid paying a deposit this early. Most schools will accept anyone who is willing to pay (sad but true) and they will overlook deadlines because of this. They also often want a quick answer so that you don’t change your mind. Chances are you have more time than they lead on.

  75. Ramona Flowers*

    Does anyone have any suggestions of useful resources, articles, etc for personal development planning – what it is, how to approach it, questions to ask yourself, examples of goals you might set, etc? I’m trying to learn more about this as I haven’t had opportunities to do it in the past. Now I have an employer that’s willing to devote time and money to personal development but doesn’t have great resources for helping to plan this.

    My last manager didn’t understand when I said that learning to identify my learning needs IS a learning need and just wrote “Ramona is going to let me know about her learning needs” after I said that. I have a development plan but it was entirely led by me and I feel I’ve missed out as a result as I didn’t really know what to put in it.

    I have a new manager now and plan to put this on the agenda for our next 1:1. She’s done my job in the past so may have some more helpful input. But I would like to do some of my own thinking first.

    I don’t have any basic skills gaps, I’ve exhausted opportunities for in-house training and I’m now looking more at ways to stay energised. I’ve found some resources but am not sure I’m finding the best stuff so I’d love suggestions! Thank you!

    1. The real Olivia Benson*

      So I just had my review and my development is manging change/workload (courses), shadowing, learning new skills/brushing up old ones on lynda (dot)com.

      My manager is taking a PG cert re: development (possibly with work as we are an academic institute) but you can do courses with the OU or local colleges might run something.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I’m more stuck on figuring out what to learn or take courses on in the first place! But thanks :)

  76. offonaLARK*

    I currently live a bit south of St Louis. The past few winters, our DOT has been less-than-stellar about pre-treating for ice and snow and there have been huge roadway issues. There has also been some flooding that has completely cut off one county from another.

    I live in a very rural area that is always plowed last on snow days and gets cut into an island when flooding occurs. Even finding alternate routes doesn’t always work, and driving on ice is just dangerous in general.

    Is it appropriate to ask in an interview about potential inclement weather policies, such as work-at-home days if you can’t safely make it to the office? Should that wait for an offer stage? Or should I just wing it when the situation comes up? I’m hoping to start a job search soon, and moving is absolutely out of the picture right now.

    1. Fluffer Nutter*

      I’d leave it for the offer stage. At Old, Old Job they addressed weather absences in our orientation.

    2. Havel*

      I think that’s a fair question. Commute is a huge factor in where you work! Especially if you have your address on your resume, people will understand why you ask. I guess I’d say something like “maybe you noticed on my resume. I like to be prepared but sometimes the winter road conditions make that pretty much impossible. What are your policies on severe weather?”

      This question wouldn’t feel weird to me, as an interviewer.

      My own example would be: I’m in NYC, and there’s a small but significant number of companies in my industry in north NJ, and I’d rather not because that complicates the commute and taxes and everything. The couple of times that I’ve had a phone interview and then heard “actually, we’re located in New Jersey, you’ll have to take this train for the in-person”, I feel like I was strung along.

      It’s fine to clear those logistical questions up ASAP, IMO.

  77. Havel*

    Very general question: any advice about getting started with freelance/consulting side work?

    I have a friend (really more like professional mentor and acquaintance, which is fine with me since we’re starting a business relationship), who’s been a consultant for many years. He’s worked with a lot of different high profile companies and is really respected in the field, with good reason because he’s brilliant.

    Recently he proposed the idea of referring me to some of his friends/clients for smaller projects, because he knows my skills and. I said yes because I like what we both do, and I’ve got the time and the ambition for it.

    Big problem is that I know what I need to do (as in, “how to complete a task”), but outside that I’m kind of clueless? It’s sort of like learning how to conduct yourself when you get your first job.

    He’s available for helping me out, but I’d like to avoid monopolizing his time out of respect and a general sense of decency.

    I know this question is super generic, and I’ll probably be able to ask better questions/get better answers when I know more, but I’m very appreciative of any advice thrown my way!

    1. self published*

      Since he’s sending you referrals, why not ask to shadow him / act as an assistant on a project or two?

      1. Havel*

        Yup, we’ve done a little of that. We’ve sat down and gone over some projects he’s allowed to discuss with me. There’s one in specific he’d like me to help with.

        Some of his clients are pretty secure or not located in our city and wouldn’t be cool with him bringing some random new guy in as his assistant, especially since I work regular office hours (I’d be up for the idea of becoming a permanent consultant, once it became financially viable). So a lot of it would be working from my home, his home, or a coffeeshop or something. But we’re making some small progress and it’s cool!

  78. Fluffer Nutter*

    Need interview advice in 2 areas please. 1. What to do when the panel is asking you if you still have more questions but your allotted interview time is up or nearly up? In my old field time would have dictated it- now I’m not sure if it’s a test, if they don’t mind keeping the next person waiting etc.
    2. I have my first ever dinner interview next week w/ a non profit in a field I haven’t worked in before. I’ve already done a phone and in person panel, their email said they’d like to clear up a few more questions before making a final decision, and interact in a more fun setting with a “small group”. They are fewer than 10 staff-wise, so presumable the CEO has seen enough of me. :-) It’s right after work but was framed as dinner. One of my concerns is the restaurant is v. loud. Otherwise, tips on how to prepare and navigate this? Thanks AMM community, you’re the best.

    1. Fabulous*

      1) I wouldn’t pay attention to the time. If they like you, they won’t mind going over a few minutes. You can always say something like, “I notice we’re really close to the ending time but I do have a short list of questions for you. Is it alright to go through them now, or would you prefer I email you my questions?”
      2) They presumably chose the restaurant knowing what the ambiance is like. They should know how to account for the volume, maybe they made a reservation for a back room or something.

    2. Ghost Town*

      1) I generally ask questions during the interview, as the topic comes up, leaving me with a very short list at the end. In case that doesn’t happen, I usually write out my questions the beforehand and prioritize them, in case I can’t get to them all. When they for questions, say that you notice time is running short, but you have one or two you’d like to ask, and then launch into the top priority question (or two, seriously, keep it brief).

    3. Kris*

      Look up the restaurant’s menu ahead of time and think about what you can order that won’t be awkward or messy to eat, so you can concentrate on the conversation without being self-conscious that your sandwich’s contents are falling out around the edges. :)

  79. Tuxedo Cat*

    If anyone has any well wishes to spare, that would be awesome. I’ve been looking for a job since September of 2016. My postdoc ends in October, there are no options to renew (institution policy) or create a more permanent job.

    I have applications out. I’ve interviewed at multiple places, but I’ve heard back from all places (and it has been a no). Everyone says I’m doing the right things, but this is rough.

    1. babblemouth*

      *hugs* this stuff is hard on the psyche. do you have a good support network around you?

      1. Tuxedo Cat*

        Yes, but the hard thing is that my field is small (and I am looking at other non-academic, not directly related roles). My friends and I are competing for the same jobs and some of them are succeeding on the market. I get why they were picked over me, but it still sucks. I think a lot of jobs in my field are unsure what’s going to happen with the current administration in the US (I am US-based) so they’re being conservative. And moving away to another country isn’t an option- my partner is very much based here.

        Thanks for your response.

    4. Overeducated*

      Good luck! My spouse is in a similar situation but not mobile because i’m only halfway through my grant…looks like adjuncting next year. It’s rough but I hope something comes along for both of you.

  80. bystander*

    A close coworker of mine gave notice this week, with a major contributing factor being bullying and disrespect from our department head. This is a known problem; several people in my department have gone to HR over it, and HR is reportedly “working on it.” I’ve been on the receiving end of this treatment on occasion but not as frequently, and I’ve spoken to my direct supervisor about it in the past. He’s supportive but hasn’t himself been a target so I’m not sure he “gets it” emotionally. What’s my ethical responsibility right this minute, when: I am 100 percent certain that my colleague has been treated poorly; the dept head shifts “targets” in the department; and I also feel 85% certain there’s a gendered component to the behavior–but I’m not currently a target myself. Do I go to my direct supervisor again? Go straight to HR? Wait till the next time he blows up at me so I have a concrete example of the behavior? Get HR to come to a staff meeting with my same-level colleagues so we can all report together?

    1. Graciosa*

      None of the above.

      You are not responsible for managing your department head. HR is already aware of the problem and working on it. You’ve already spoken to your supervisor about the issues you’ve had when you’ve had them. If your departing colleague wants to share information with HR about his experiences, that is his decision – not yours.

      Your letter reads like you’re upset about losing a close colleague and are looking for ways to get HR to “hurry up” and “do something” about the situation. It doesn’t work that way. If there is already something in play (“working on it sounds” like a PIP) then another example of previous bad behavior won’t change anything.

      When a PIP is in progress, it’s confidential. If you think about it, your department head is also an employee, and you should appreciate that making employee disciplinary issues public is rarely appropriate.

      If – and only if – there is another incident directed at you in the future, you report it just as you have in the past (to your direct supervisor) and follow his guidance. That’s it.

      Everything else you’ve listed looks like you’re trying to derail any attempt to let the department head correct his behavior and pass the PIP. That’s not going to be perceived as helpful. It will be perceived as unprofessional agitation, and gets you added (in a negative way) to the discussions going on behind the scenes.

      Find another way to work through your unhappiness at losing this colleague that doesn’t hurt you professionally.

      Good luck.

    2. Observer*

      You don’t have an ethical responsibility here. It’s not like this is a secret – your org knows about it, and it’s on them to fix it.

      As a practical matter, what are you trying to accomplish?

    3. Rocketship*

      I get the sense you’re concerned that this department head will pick a new target for this behavior once your coworker leaves. If so – I would say you don’t necessarily have an obligation to do this; however, if you *want* to do something, the best thing you can do is document.

      Document when you’re a target of the treatment yourself. Document when you observe others being targeted. Document the elements that bring you to believe this is gendered behavior. Even document the ways in which you know your colleague has been treated badly. Collect the evidence.

      Maybe you won’t need to do anything with it. If so, no harm, no foul. But if you do get an opportunity to do something about it, you’ll have plenty of backup.

  81. esra (also a Canadian)*

    Would love some perspective:

    I’m someone who thinks PIPs are pretty much always a good idea, or at least letting someone know if they aren’t performing well so they can work on things or leave of their own accord. But the past couple places I’ve worked at will just lay people off out of the blue. Both have been startups hitting the 100+ person mark, that value a ‘nice/get-along’ culture. It almost seems like they’d rather just get rid of someone than talk to them? But that doesn’t seem like it could be right, because it’s so costly and bad for morale.

    So if anyone has inside insight on letting people go for kind of nebulous culture reasons, I’d be really interested in hearing people’s opinions!

    1. katamia*

      In my experience, a lot of people who value just “getting along” with people really seem to struggle with confrontation, which can sometimes translate to not being able to give honest feedback that might hurt someone’s feelings. It’s something I find very frustrating, personally, because problems don’t get addressed, but for some people, avoiding the potential discomfort of possibly hurting someone’s feelings is worth more than actually addressing problems that need to be addressed.

      Either that, or maybe they’re just not very good at hiring and keep hiring the wrong people who don’t have and won’t be able to get the skills needed for their particular position.

    2. LCL*

      Maybe it’s the Canadian niceness thing, I don’t know ’cause I’m a cranky American.
      Seriously, letting people go for nebulous culture reasons is how US companies get in trouble for legally provable discrimination over and over and over again. Regardless of how cosmopolitan, egalitarian and non-discriminatory a person thinks they are, they still tend to get along best with people just. like. themselves. So a good culture fit turns out to be a person very similar to the person making the hiring/firing decisions. I believe this to be a worldwide universal problem, but am only familiar with the US situation.

    3. Anon Anon*

      Some people are just very adverse to any sort of conflict. And putting someone on a PIP involves difficult conversations and conflict. So it’s easier to not do anything. However, I think it’s dangerous. It leaves other employee’s always wondering if they are going to get fired, and it creates an atmosphere where at least for some period of time there are no real consequences for failure to perform.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      They don’t see the costs and they don’t see the damage to morale. In severe cases, TPTB will say, “NO, there are no costs in getting rid of people, it only costs if you keep them. Oh, morale? We’re doing great here, everyone loves working here.”

      In other words, there is a total disconnect.

  82. Aeryn Sun*

    At what point do you do something if your job is affecting your health? I’ve been beyond stressed for the past few weeks to the point where it’s significantly affected my mental health and it’s starting to affect my physical health. I’ve tried asking for help but I’ve had no luck getting any help. I’m not sure what to do right now.

    1. Another person*

      1. Take some leave. If they won’t let you take vacation, call in sick.
      2. Visit a therapist to get help making a plan (either to rebalance your work load or develop an exit strategy.)
      3. Implement your plan.
      Lots of variables of course. But when you’re underwater at work and management does not care, you need to take a step away to think about your next steps.

    2. babblemouth*

      1. How explicit are you when asking for help. I’ve had difficult times in the past when I asked for help and didn’t get it, and it turned out later I hadn’t spelled out: “I’m overloaded, can you pelase take something off my plate” to my boss.

      2. Provided you’ve done the above, take time off. It will have a double benefit: you’ll get some headspace AND some of your project will have to be handed over to someone else, so they can also raise the alarm that it’s too much work.

  83. LostGeneration*

    So I have two questions if anyone has advice:

    1) I recently became an admin for a support group that I’ve participated in over the past few years. I’d like to include it on my resume, but I don’t want many specifics about the group itself – it covers a topic that can quickly become sensitive. How much is necessary to include on my resume about the group itself? Should I just include the name and the fact that I’m an admin?

    2) I’m job hunting for an entry level position in the marketing field, and I recently came across this reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/6k0p7l/what_are_the_best_free_online_certificates_you/) about online certificates to include on a resume. Since I don’t have much experience in the professional world (two years out of college, no marketing experience), would a certificate in a relevant software program look good on a resume? Or do companies only care if you’ve had a chance to use it in the workplace?

    1. babblemouth*

      1) Yes, do include it, and the fact you’re the admin. If it’s relevant to the job, maybe expand a little bit on your specific duties too.

      2) That depends on the software. If you’re talking about usual/ specialised software, go ahead. If you’re talking about anything is the MS Office suite (word, excel, powerpoint etc), it’s unnecessary. It’s assumed at this point that most people know how to use it.

  84. help?*

    Hi all, I posted this far too late on last week’s open thread, so I’m coming back around with it. I wanted to see if anyone has a sense of what the dress code would be at a state attorney general’s office? Not as a lawyer, but as an executive assistant. Thanks!

    1. babblemouth*

      From everything I know and have seen online, I would got for business-conservative. That means pantsuit/ shirt and tie/ dress shoes etc.

    3. Graciosa*

      It’s generally quite conservative – law is a serious business, and you’re representing the state.

      The good news is that the EAs don’t have to dress like lawyers, and state salaries are known to be lower than in the private sector. This means that you don’t have to dress as expensively as you would elsewhere.

      If you don’t already have an acceptable wardrobe, consider gently used clothing options and remember that if you create your own sort of uniform you can get away with many fewer pieces.

  85. Morning Glories*

    I’m trying to change industries using my project management skills. I had an interview this week with a recruiter who changed my title at my last position from “Marketing Manager” to “Project Manager and Coordinator”. It’s true that what I did at my last position was project management and coordination, but that wasn’t my title. Is this not considered unethical and lying on my resume? Is this fine to do?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I’d say that’s unethical and can come back to bite you, especially if the hiring manager finds out what your real title was.

    2. Another person*

      This might be one of those situations where you put the official title (the one your employers uses) and the unofficial descriptive title in parentheses after it.

  86. Elizabeth*

    I was offered a position in a different city. I work in higher ed admin as a program coordinator but have been wanting to move into research/evaluation in this area. I think it would be great on my resume and for experience (I might eventually want a degree in this area). Advantages: Would love to live in new city (I’ve spent a decent amount of time there). I have been severely depressed and want to make a BIG change in my life. I feel stuck here and just want to get out. Young people here are competitive and focused on degrees and credentials, and I am constantly comparing myself to other people and feeling bad. I know that wherever you go it’s you – but my psychiatrist who has known me for 15 yrs thinks that while he doesn’t usually endorse “geographic therapy,” it could be a great move at this point. This kind of move has been great for me in the past. I’m 29, no kids and want to have an adventure. I know I could make friends, it’s also the kind of place people want to visit you constantly and it’s closer to my brother’s family.

    Disadvantages: Money. The offer is 73% of my current salary, a lot less than I thought it would be. In new city salaries are much lower and cost of living is lower. I’m in a very high salary city now, and am also a little overpaid (not that I don’t value my work but I don’t think I would have been offered this salary anywhere but my current employer; when I came in we were incredibly overstaffed and there was a little bit of an air of throwing money around). The offer is exactly 150% of what I made as a grad student in a higher cost of living area, so I know I am able to live on it. It’s equivalent to my first year of my previous job at my current employer. I have AMAZING health insurance that I love, and I use it (mental health, prescriptions, regular doctor). New job is much worse and has a deductible (I’ve never had one before). I’m worried about taking such a huge step back on salary. On the other hand, in my field salaries are quite tiered (I haven’t had to negotiate before) so I think there’s a chance if/when I move back here I could get back to where I was before.

    I’m not happy in my current job. I love the people I work with, especially my director. There is nothing truly wrong with it but it’s dragging me down, place has a chaotic feel, and I never wanted to work here a long time. I hate the commute. I want to take the offer but I feel like I am shooting myself in the foot with the money and even more with insurance – I can’t tell if it would be a spectacularly idiotic move. I am going to negotiate; the offer was explicit it’s what they had been approved to offer with my experience (they double checked my experience and position titles immediately before making the offer) and I have a couple points I could make that I have more experience than it looks like on paper. Sorry this is so long. Any thoughts or advice on negotiating?

    1. babblemouth*

      I was going to say “take the new job” until you hit the bit about health insurance. I don’t live in the US but have enough acquaintances there to feel like good health insurance is a major job benefit to not give up too quickly.

      Is the health insurance negotiable? Or could you at least negotiate a higher salary that would allow you to get a package to bring you back to your current level?

      If not, I would suggest stick to what you’ve got, and start very seriously searching for another job anyway, if you’re not already. I can sympathize with the attraction of starting anew somewhere else – I’ve done it, and have no regrets, but then again I went for a higher paycheck, so that might have counted for something!

    2. Elizabeth H.*

      I just realized my typo – I meant UNDERstaffed although I suppose it could have worked in context!

    3. Artemesia*

      I’d keep looking. Health insurance and salary are a big deal. Keep looking for something that at least delivers good benefits. There is nothing as depressing as not enough money and not enough health insurance.

    4. fposte*

      Have you crunched the actual numbers about what your budget would look like in each situation and what the effects would be after a few years? Is there a possibility to keep looking for job C? And a hard question: if you moved for this job and it didn’t alleviate your depression at all, would it still be worth doing?

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        That’s a great question. I do think it would still be worth doing. I originally started looking for jobs specifically in that city and I think being the same amount of depressed there would be easier than being depressed here (I know it might generally be the opposite bc of being away from one’s support network, but in my specific circumstances I think this is true). One of the things that attracts me most is that people are actually interested in having fun in their lives there, and there are 80,000 fun things to do constantly, here it is the opposite. I could have a generally higher quality of life because of the weather and I could ride my bike everywhere and not have a car, which I hate. And in worst case, would be VERY easy for me to come back to where I live now – it’s where I’m from, my parents/friends/”home base” are here and I’m sure I could get a decent job if new job didn’t work out. I’ve also done the “drop everything and move to entirely new city” twice before and it was very successful. I need to do more research on the health insurance to figure out exactly how/if it could work. If it were just living on less money that’s one thing but the health insurance thing is the biggest red flag for me. I am planning on crunching the numbers really hard this weekend.

        1. fposte*

          That’s a good answer! Definitely get concrete numbers, then. They’ll probably be handy even if you don’t take the job as that’ll give you more information about what your make-or-break numbers would be.

  87. Keladry of Mindelan*

    I had an excellent mid-year review, and my supervisor is in my corner 100% that I should be promoted. However, the way things work at my non-profit is that you have to already be doing the work of the higher level position before your title can change and the promotion go into effect. There also needs to be a compelling business need. I’m already doing the work of the higher level position, but now I need to put in writing what the business need is. And that’s where I’m struggling. Like, of course it’s better for the company and mission if I am doing more and higher level work than before and providing better service to our members.

    What are you looking for when you need to justify a “business need” for a promotion?

    1. Here we go again*

      Is your role client/donor facing? Showing your donors that you are the appropriate level can help you gain respect from them.

      1. Keladry of Mindelan*

        We’re a professional membership organization, and I do interact with members very regularly as a part of my job. I don’t yet rank high enough to have my own business card, although my coworkers refer people to me all the time at conferences. It would be nice to be at a higher level for that reason alone, just to not have to do the awkward “sorry I don’t have a business card to exchange” dance lol

    2. Artemesia*

      There is no ‘business need’ for a promotion if they can get someone to do the work for lower wages. This is really a crappy way to run an organization. I would focus on the business need for the work you are doing which carries the title of X. I would also be looking around — no rush, but an organization that has a business model of exploiting the labor by underpaying them and making them grovel i always going to suck a bit.

      1. Rocketship*

        ^^ Exactly, this.

        I was put in the same position a little while ago at my job – “do the extra work for free, for like six months to a year, then prove to us why we should pay you more for it.” I eventually got so fed up with that attitude that my response was “The ‘business need’ for promoting me is that I will leave if you don’t – and then this ‘business’ will have a ‘compelling need’ to figure out how to operate with 0 people doing the 5 jobs I’m doing. This is the median market wage for a person doing the work I do and this is the title that best describes it. Your move.”

        If there’s not a compelling business need to pay you a fair market wage for the work you do, then there’s not a compelling business need for you to be doing that work.

        Of course, your mileage may vary. I happen to be a big fan of calling that particular bullshit bluff – they definitely need you more than you need them, they know it, and they’re trying to scare you into thinking it’s the other way around. Don’t fall for it.

    3. nonprofit manager*

      I feel for you. Do you work for the same nonprofit I do? Because it sounds like it. I have been working out of position and excelling for a couple of years and I have decided if I do not get the pay increase that goes along with my accomplishments and responsibilities, I begin looking elsewhere. For my compelling business need, I focused on the gap in essential functions that occurs if I am not working at the higher level. For your situation, you should discuss some of this and why it’s better for the organization and its mission for you to do this other work. Focus on why. Good luck to you.

  88. Small but Fierce*

    Does anyone else have issues with internal recruiters contacting you to request an interview, only to ghost you before it gets scheduled? This past month alone I’ve had this happen pretty much once a week. Sometimes it’s a one time message, other times we’ve been actively communicating up until they ask for my availability to interview. I’m not actively looking so I’m not following up when they go silent, but it makes me worry about my chances when I do start looking more seriously in the next 6 months or so. (For what it’s worth, I’m an entry-level marketer, so it’s an employer’s market for people like me.)

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Ugh! I had that happen this month. Recruiter emailed and we set up a phone call. He called 90 minutes after the scheduled time and didn’t apologize. Then he wanted to set up a time to meet and said he would send an invite. Never got invite. I emailed asking if he still wanted to meet. Silence. I don’t go to meeting. Two weeks later, he is leaving multiple voicemails asking to meet. I don’t think he knows he flaked on the last meeting!

  89. GigglyPuff*

    I unexpectedly got a phone interview with a job I applied to months ago. I wrote out this long post about how it just seemed just a little “off”, like disorganization on their part, but they don’t know it. Anyways I realized probably provided way to much detail, so I’ll just go with these little gems.

    Pretty decent interview questions when I got hit with “5 words to describe why you’d be a good fit for the position”, crashed and burned on that one, lol. Then there was one on “work ethics” which really wasn’t worded great, so all I could think was “yes, I’m going to move halfway across the country, sell all your equipment on ebay and vanish into the night”.

  90. Danae*

    I got a new job!

    I’ve been mostly unemployed since March, so this is a huge relief. It’s a short-term contract that will go at least three months and maybe for the next year, so it’s not a permanent position, but I’ll be able to move back to the city from my teensy town in the middle of nowhere. It’ll also give me a chance to work on a certificate in project management so I can make a switch to a career where permanent positions are far more plentiful than in my current field.

    I’m really excited about this project–it’s 100% up my alley, I’m getting in at the very start of it so I will be able to have a large influence on how things are done during it, and it’s for a different company than the Big Technology Company You Have Definitely Heard Of that I usually contract with.

    So yay! Happy (temporary) ending to my job hunt!

  91. babblemouth*

    How do you stay motivated when the project you’re leading hits a snag?

    Context: I’m in charge of getting a Really Awesome Project off the ground, get the budget lined up and the risks outlined so we can send it to leadership for approval. I am SUPER excited about it, but as it’s something risky that’s never been done before, I’m meeting a lot of people second guessing what I do. I’ve never led anything this size, so I’m second guessing myself a LOT. I can easily handle some second guessing and push back, but in this case there is more than I’m used to, and I’m also a lot more emotionally invested in the project than usual.

    How do you keep yourself motivated and focused when you get derailed a lot?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d try to detach emotionally as much as possible.
      Say you won a million dollars. You could go out and spend it all within a few days, it’s not hard. The trick is to detach and think about how to best use that million dollars.

      This is a similar idea, you can’t believe your luck, you have Incredibly Cool Project to work on. Here you need to detach by getting involved in going through the steps of the project. Make yourself stay vigilant for weak spots or for random pop-up problems.
      Since you are saying that you are getting more push back than usual, line up standard answers for the questions most asked. Remind yourself that people are allowed to ask questions and it’s not always a personal attack if they do ask.

      I had a project here that I knew would be a good project. (This was volunteer work.) Oh boy, did I get hit with questions and concerns. One thing that was helpful was to consider the question from their perspective. I could find reasons why their concern was legitimate. They did not see it from my perspective. So I developed standard replies for when those concerns popped up. If you show knowledge and confidence, people seem to pick up on that.

  92. Lynne879*

    I have a job interview next Thursday! But I have so many mixed feelings.

    On the one hand, it’ll be a full-time job where I’ll be paid more and my commute will be cut in half (20-30min drive instead of 45-1hr drive), but on the other hand it’s still technically a customer service job and I’m sick of dealing with people :/

    I have no idea if there will be benefits; the job description didn’t say anything about benefits, but the position I applied for is technically a county position, so I SHOULD have benefits, right??

    I’m excited, but also super nervous since I have no idea really what to expect. I’ll give you guys an update next week.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe the county website would give clues as to what positions have benefits?
      Good luck I hope this plays out well for you.

  93. Fluffer Nutter*

    For those of you who conduct interviews, please do us candidates a favor! If there is more than 1 interviewer, please say “If hired, X would be your direct supervisor.” I had a horrible 2nd interview moment where I asked when I’d meet the person I would report to [ I was a little afraid they were hiding the crazy laundry] and he was, well, looking right at me in a very unimpressed way.

    1. Graciosa*

      Well, we sort of do – in the sense of making it clear who the managers are – and sort of don’t in the sense that when we have multiple positions open at the same level, all the hiring managers for that level participate in the interview.

      Totally with you that if the manager is known, the manager should be identified, but wanted to point out that sometimes we don’t know yet. For these types of scenarios, any one of us – or none of us – could make the candidate an offer.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been on two interviews where I had to ask who my manager would be. In one of the interviews, they didn’t know who would be the manager.

    3. Anon Anon*

      Where I work there is always a separate interview with the person’s manager, before the group future co-workers interview.

    4. Anxa*

      Oh my goodness, please whenever possible let candidates know who’ll they will be working under if it’s not the interviewer.

      I just was hired in a position where there were extenuating circumstances around this (health problems with the interviewer). But I was so stressed to find that all that stuff I mentioned in my interview about caveats to my taking the job would be new to the person I was reporting to. I mentioned taking a few long weekends, having to take the last few Tuesdays of the job off (it’s a summer position), not having a smartphone and needed internet access at work (still don’t have it). Now everything is a surprise to my supervisor and I feel like a terrible employee.

  94. Carla*

    A friend just started a new job where her manager has indicated that she (the manager) will not provide feedback on work that is sent to her. Instead, if she doesn’t like something about it, she will ignore the employee/the message (if the work was emailed) and expect the employee to figure out what the manager didn’t like and fix it. How should a person deal with this kind of “management”? The manager calls this “taking initiative” and extends this technique to other things (employees are expected to chase down managers for quarterly reviews, for example), but it seems outrageous to me.

      1. Carla*

        That was my advice too. It doesn’t seem like a management technique an employee should even *try* to get used to or work around.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. I had a horrible, vile boss that worked that way. It was HORRIBLE.
        She is not a manager, she is someone running on a power trip. She is telling you exactly who she is, listen, and run away.

    2. periwinkle*

      Wha..? So this manager considers the “silent treatment” as the optimal management approach?

      The best way for your friend to deal with this is to Get. Out. Now. Good grief.

    5. This Daydreamer*

      Just curious – did the job description actually spell out that you had to possess psychic abilities to qualify?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      So when does the manager “take initiative” to manage?
      This sounds like “Don’t do as I do, do as I telepathically convey to you.”

  95. floating*

    I got a raise!!!!!!!!! A super unexpected, but appreciated one!

    I’ve been working in a training program for a specialized area in my field over the last few months. It’s my first full time job out of college, and by design, it’s pretty dysfunctional. Overworked, underpaid, no real manager – just floaters in the office. All of which I knew upon accepting the job. The experience is worth it. By working in the program, you’re hopefully promoted to an assistant position in your desired department within 1-6 months (turnover is SUPER quick). The department I want to get into is really small here, so promotions don’t come as quickly, and I knew I would be in the training program longer than most.

    In my five months here, I’ve trained five people who have started after me but been promoted before me. None of them were positions I wanted, but it’s still disheartening. One person I trained got promoted after being in the program for a week and a half. Just the way things go sometimes. After the fifth person got promoted this week, it really got to me. Even though I know I’m doing everything right and have repeatedly been told by HR how valuable I am here, it just sucks I went home to my boyfriend and was like “I know I’m doing a good job. I know everyone else can see that. But I feel unwanted and I feel stupid. And even though I know feeling that way is stupid, I’m just going to cry for approximately three minutes about it.” About two months ago, someone senior at the company hinted to me that there might be a position for me soon, but recently I haven’t been sure how much stock to put in that. I know it might sound crazy to job search after five months, but the longest I’ve heard of anyone staying in this program without a promotion is seven months.

    Just as I was really considering leaving, HR called me into their office, and told me that they’re bumping my pay by $1.50/hr! It’s really, really unheard of for this program, and the office in general. HR stressed that they know I’m pulling more weight than I should, and wanted to show their appreciation. They also hinted at a promotion in the future, and hope that I can take this as a “hang in there.” I’m really excited and overwhelmed by it. To know that I’m not doing everything for nothing, to get their appreciation substantiated, it means a lot to me.

  96. My name is Inigo Montoya*

    My mom is interviewing for a receptionist job at a doctor’s office (small business). They want her to “shadow” for a day as part of the interview process. I’m arguing that she needs to be paid for her time. So two questions, legally do they need to pay her? But pragmatically, should she even bring it up before agreeing to the interview/shadowing? I think she’d love the job and I’m assuming this is ignorance of the law on the part of a small business owner versus an attempt to get free work out of people.

    1. Amber Rose*

      If she’s just following someone around and watching, I don’t imagine they’d need to pay her since she isn’t doing anything. If she actually ends up working during that time, she should request pay.

      In some industries this is common. My husband had to do it when he interviewed to be an emergency services dispatcher. They needed to be sure he knew what the job entailed.

      1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        But for a full day? During which she’ll need to use her extremely scarce PTO to cover the time?

        1. London Engineer*

          But it doesn’t sound like she’ll be doing any work for them… It sounds unfair, but that doesn’t make it illegal.

        2. Graciosa*

          They aren’t deriving any value from her presence, so why would they pay for it?

          If they were having her work a day without pay, I would go the other way. You don’t get to take the benefit of someone’s labor without paying for it. This doesn’t sound like that.

          It sounds like an effort to make sure the interviewee has the best opportunity possible to evaluate the work place and see if it would be a good fit for her. A full day may be a long time – and I’m not saying this is a best practice – but I’m not seeing the legal issue.

          If she doesn’t want to do it, she should decline.

    2. London Engineer*

      If she is literally just following someone around and seeing how things work then probably not (IANAL) but is does seem like a ridiculous amount of time. Ludicrous interview processes have come up before and unless you agree in advance that you will be paid it’s not necessary – and I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of it happening at all. See all the posts where people are upset that they had to provide sample work and then wanted to know if they should send a bill when they don’t get hired.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I work in a clinical setting and some positions are now required to shadow before hire. You can tell candidates a dozen times that they will encounter undressed people and gross injuries, but they don’t get it. We’ve had too many people freak out on their first day, so we make sure they can handle it.
      It’s possible that she won’t actually be at the office for the whole day. They may be planning for her to be there for a few hours and then go to lunch together.

      1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        It sounds like I’m wrong here – apparently it’s normal to have people shadow and not consider it something one needs to pay for.

        I’m going to still vote that employers think about it before taking a full-day away from someone :-(

        1. AndersonDarling*

          In our case, the candidate isn’t working in any capacity. They are following various staff, kind of like an indepth tour. It is also useful for the candidate because they have the opportunity to ask any questions about the position in the moment. And sometimes the candidates back out during the session. It saves everyone the time and expense of the onboarding.

        2. WellRed*

          Personally. I dont think it’s normal, certainly not for a receptionist or some other type of admin position, no matter what the setting.

  97. Kaitlynn Z*

    Hi everyone, I was wondering what your opinion is on this situation that came up the other day. I work in a small casual office with 10 employees. I am the “office manager” but my responsibilities are mostly answering the phones and support for the sales staff. I normally take public transit and walk the block from the bus stop to the office.

    Tuesday, I had the bad luck to step in dog poop on the way in to work, so I went around to the back entrance; left my shoes outside and opened the office. My boss arrived a few minutes later and I asked if I could walk to target a few blocks away and buy some new shoes. We were swamped so she asked if I would just work in my socks an get them during lunch.

    Anyways we got slammed and had a 2 people out sick so the boss ordered pizza for the rest of us and I never went to lunch. I wound up deciding that it was worth cleaning my cheap sneakers so I ordered a Uber and went home shoe less.

    So yesterday, I mentioned to my boss how nice it was to work in no shoes and she mentioned it was no big deal and she doesn’t care what people are wearing.

    So basically my question is does that mean it would be OK to be barefoot there on a regular basis? Would I look less credible to the other co-workers and vendors who might see my socks? We don’t have customers coming in, so this might be a situation where this is OK.

    What are everyone thoughts?

    1. Amber Rose*

      This is from my perspective as a safety person, but if the building set fire tomorrow and you needed to run, being barefoot/sock foot would be terrible. Similarly, if there’s a chance you could drop stuff on your toes.

      From a more general perspective, if I were your coworker I would be annoyed by bare feet, but socks probably wouldn’t bother me as long as you don’t suffer foot odor.

      That said, why not wear comfy shoes like Crocs or something?

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, there could also be a stray staple or paper clip on the floor and then there’s knowing that you are walking barefoot where everyone else is wearing shoes in from the street. I say get more comfy shoes and kick them off when you are at your desk.

    2. self published*

      Sorry, but yuck. Please don’t. Perhaps you could wear those Vibram or low-profile shoes but bare or sock feet in the workplace is unprofessional and grosses me out.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I kick my shoes off at my desk when I’m sitting. The second I stand up to move anywhere, shoes go back on. I could see maybe wearing just socks, but knowing how unclean the floors in offices tend to be, that staples and other pointy objects get dropped, and that tornados/fires/etc. wait for no shoes to get put on, I find it a safety issue.

      2. Radio Star*

        Do all of you good people who are worried about fires and evacuations wear shoes at home 24/7. To me it seems like that risk is infinitesimal. My office has clean floors and I often kick my shoes off in the morning and except for rest room breaks they stay off until quitting time. FWIW I always have socks on; I agree total barefoot is gross

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Concrete floor? If yes, it’s really not good for the body over a period of time.

    5. Mephyle*

      Plenty of people are grossed out by unshod feet. They feel that feet are an intimate part of the body that you don’t share with others. Self-published and Lemon Zinger have expressed this point of view, and lots of other people feel the same way.

  98. Alice*

    Wet hair at the office (to be clear, neat wet hair, not messy wet hair) — acceptable or not?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Depends. Are you meeting a client? If you work a regular office job in which your primary interactions are with other office workers, I’d say wet hair is fine.

      1. Graciosa*

        I have to disagree with this one – I have never seen wet hair in my regular office environment and would not regard it as acceptable. My current office is casual enough for jeans and sneakers when you’re not meeting customers – still no wet hair. Drying your hair is finishing your basic grooming.

        The only place I’m coming up with this being acceptable would be for lifeguards at a pool.

        1. Carin*

          “Drying your hair is finishing your basic grooming.”

          Certain hair textures and ethnic backgrounds do not respond well to daily heat styling. I don’t see why it would be unprofessional to care for your hair in a way that maintains its health.

          1. Graciosa*

            It isn’t. The part that is unprofessional is coming to work with grooming unfinished.

            Your employer is not monitoring whether you bathe in the morning or the evening, or what time you get up to get ready for work.

            Like a lot of things in life, as long as you accomplish the required result, how you achieve it is up to you.

          2. New Bee*

            I have natural hair, and when I think of noticeably wet hair I think of slick straight hair. Unless it’s dripping, I think most people wouldn’t be able to tell if I left the house with wet/damp hair because curls absorb moisture and water doesn’t slide down and off the shaft like straight hair.

        2. KR*

          I’m going to assume you don’t have curly hair. If I “dry” my hair it’s going to be extremely frizzy and poofy and unacceptable to look at. Much better to let air take care of things!

          1. Candy*

            Same here… which is why I wake up and shower early enough that my hair has time to air dry before I get to work.

        3. Overeducated*

          What if you biked to work or used an on site gym and showered at the office? Mine has a very basic exercise room and shower but I don’t think there are plugs for a hair dryer. I don’t shower at work if I can avoid it but it never occurred to me that using it at work would be unprofessional.

    2. Temperance*

      I don’t think it’s acceptable. It would be seen as really strange in my office. It’s like you’re going to work after just jumping out of the shower.

      1. punkwich*

        I mean I shower at 6:30am, leave for work at 7am, get to work at 7:30 so yeah, I am going to work after just jumping out of the shower!

    3. punkwich*

      It never occurred to me to think about that, I’ve definitely come in with wet hair before. I don’t use a hair dryer? I would wonder if this is a gender thing? would anyone care less if a man came in with wet hair? what if you get rained on?

      1. Graciosa*

        That actually happened to me. I got caught in a sudden shower at lunch and returned to the office drenched.

        I had one strictly internal meeting to attend (which the other participants were nice enough to rush through quickly once the initial laughter subsided – I was *very* wet) and then I went home to dry off.

        The more I think about it, the less I think wet hair is appropriate in the office.

      2. Clairels*

        Most men have hair short enough that it air dries in minutes, and so it’s rarely an issue. But yeah, if Thor came in just after showering, I think it would be just as much of an issue.

    4. floating*

      I’ve been wondering this too! I normally towel dry my hair a little to get rid of excess water, and then let it air dry. My hair doesn’t take too long to air dry (1-2 hours), but normally it’s still a little damp at the beginning of the work day. There’s definitely the risk of looking a little frazzled and unpolished, like you were running late and just didn’t have enough time to blow dry. But I think as long as you’re not client facing and it’s not absolutely soaking wet, it’s fine.

    5. Amy Cakes*

      I never dry my hair in the summer, but it’s always in a ponytail or bun. Our office is very hot, and many women do this as a personal air conditioning method. Some of them wear it down, but I would find that uncomfortable since mine is long.

      I’ve never thought it to be an issue. Plenty of men wear their hair gelled in a way that looks permanently wet.

    6. Sole*

      I work in a non-client facing position in a fairly relaxed non profit (no professional dress codes, everyone trends on the casual side of business casual, almost entirely staffed by women) and I come in regularly with wet hair. Personal preference, as I shower in the AM and don’t like heat treating my hair to prevent damage. I’ve seen other fellow employees come in with wet hair in the morning as well, though all on the same level (never seen a director do so). It’s never been a problem here, but again we’re very relaxed.

      I do walk in and keep my hair in a bun until it’s mostly dry, so that might mitigate any side eye, if there were some to be had.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Depends on the time of day, to be honest. My hair– curly and thick– is usually wet in the mornings because I don’t use a dryer. At various times of the year, it’s wetter than usual, but it’s always dry by about 10am. It’s never posed a problem and I don’t think anyone has ever noticed or cared. Now, granted, if my hair were dripping, that would be a different story.

      Post-lunch, maybe after a workout and shower… I would find it unusual but not particularly unacceptable. And yes, never in front of clients.

    8. CheeryO*

      My vote is no, although slightly damp is probably fine as long as it’s neat. I would try to shower at night if I didn’t use a hair dryer. I do feel like people with shorter hair (men or women) and curly hair can probably get away with a little more since it’s less obvious.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That’s what I’ve been doing–since I went blonde, I’m trying to use the blow dryer as little as possible. If I shower at night and braid it, I get mad curls and barely have to style the next day anyway. If I do a blowout or use the flat iron, I can make it work for two or three days.

    9. Elizabeth H.*

      I feel strongly that it’s NOT but I learned that other people don’t feel this way. Some of this might be hangover from time studying/living in Eastern Europe where it’s horrifying to walk outside with wet hair as you will probably fall deathly ill and/or become infertile.

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        I’ve always worked in more casual offices btw, and I definitely tip toward the ‘very casual’ end of the range we have here (I remember talking here last summer about whether or not flip flops are acceptable – I wear Teva flip flops to work regularly, am wearing right now) but I still feel like wet hair is too far and wouldn’t do it.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I mean, ultimately it comes down to your office’s culture. I’ve worked places where you have to wear dudes have to wear ties to work, and I’ve also worked places people walk around barefoot.

    11. Carin*

      Certain hair textures and ethnic backgrounds do not respond well to daily heat styling. I don’t see why it would be unprofessional to care for your hair in a way that maintains its health.

    12. Ghost Town*

      Neat wet hair to me means that you’ve towel dried it and styled it, and therefore it is not dripping wet and someone walking by isn’t necessarily going to notice that your hair is wet vs. dark/gelled/what-have-you.

      In my previous office at the university, I wouldn’t have thought twice about it (interdisciplinary area studies program in an arts and sciences college). In my new office (in the business school), I would think twice. That being said, given that my hair is past my natural waist, even though I shower at night, it is sometimes damp when I first get here.

      I think still damp is fine, but dripping wet is not. Exceptions for getting caught in the rain.

    13. Student*

      This depends substantially on the final result. Hair dry time varies a lot by hair style and type.

      You should look professional, no matter what – if the final effect is “looks like a near-drowning victim or somebody who just jumped out of the pool”, then that’s not professional. If you hair is still dripping water, that is not professional. If your hair is wet, but styled in something normal (brushed) and not making dramatic puddles or wet marks, then I don’t see the problem.

      Long hair can take a long time to fully dry compared to short hair. Mine is long, thick, and takes up to 8 hours in normal office-temperature air to fully dry, but I’m not dripping wet after about 10 minutes with a dryer or 30 minutes without. Thicker hair and certain styles take a long time to fully dry. But I’ll come to work after a shower, once my hair isn’t dripping but long before it’s fully dried. I brush it well, and re-brush after it’s dried more. Every once in a while somebody notices the slight color shift from wet to dry, or touches it when it’s wet, and comments. On rare occasions I’ll have a little dampness on the back of my shirt (I try hard to avoid that last one, I think it’s over into unprofessional territory).

      1. Anxa*

        I have fine hair (or is it thin?), and it still takes forever to dry. Sometimes I shower at night, shake my hair out to damp, and it’s not dry in the morning.

        I’m dirty blonde, so having a dampness to my hair effects the look drastically.

        1. Ghost Town*

          I have long, fine (thickness of the individual hair), and thin (quantity of hairs) dirty blonde hair myself. I shower at night, and while the overnight period should be long enough for it to dry, if I forget to take it out of the towel twist, it’ll be damp to wet in the morning.

    14. valc2323*

      I typically have wet hair at the office 2-3 days a week. I always wear it in a bun – wet or dry – and I would honestly bet that at least 80% of my office has never realized I come in with it still wet most days. In part this is because it’s very thick and waist length, and you’re talking 30min with a blow dryer, which I am not willing to invest. FWIW, I’m in a conservative industry, but my office specifically is pretty far on the “casual” side of “business casual” – I’d never wear shorts or a cami top, but tank dresses with flip flops are fine.

    15. Anxa*

      I’ve worn my hair damp two work in several work environments, but where our dress code is super casual.

      If I wear it damp I typically braid it, French braid it, or side part my hair and put it in a low bun. I actually tend to look a little more put together on damp hair days, as my usual dry har do is a plain pony tail and my baby hairs can be a little whispy.

      The reason I wear damp hair is that I cannot use hair dryers without risking angering my eczema, and I really don’t want weeping skin on my scalp. It also means my hair will get to greasy not to wash my hair every day, and daily shampoo also is bad for exczema. Wet hair is better than a bloody scalp.

      And currently I’m wearing my hair damp occasionally on purpose. I work mostly outside and wear pants (I work around chemicals) and have to get into a hot car over and over again so it helps keep me cool.

      That said, I don’t know what I’d do if I worked in a dressier environment. I guess I’d hope to have health insurance through work and make sure I can take some days off to rest my skin every few weeks.

  99. Big10Professor*

    I want everyone to know that I got a cast put on last Tuesday, and when they asked me to choose a color, I chose black specifically because of the letter AAM had posted that morning.

  100. Rosamond*

    Anyone have advice or recommended reading about trying to manage change in an organization that’s going from being very consensus-driven (to the extent that personnel decisions like whether to renew someone’s contract were up for group discussion) to being more authority-driven? To be clear, there has always been authority in this organization, but it wasn’t exercised consistently or appropriately.

    1. Student*

      You have to be consistent when people test your authority. You have to try not to take those authority challenges too personally initially – it’s part of people re-establishing the “pack order” when the authority lines change. You may find that some people can’t handle it and need to be pushed out or sidelined if you want to make the change effective, because not everyone works well in that style.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. When ever there is a major change plan on losing some people. This happens in churches, volunteer groups, every where.

  101. maria*

    Ugh, just had to turn down a job offer twice, to two different people in the organization who were very disappointed (one of whom is the President). I hate these types of conversations and wasn’t sure how honest to be about why I was going with my other offer. Plus a small part of me is nervous about the offer I did take and if it’s the right one! You’d think that getting the job ended my anxiety but in some ways this week has been harder than when I was merrily unemployed! Any reassurances from the commenters?

    1. Effie*

      What was your rationale for picking one over the other? Better commute, benefits, more interesting tasks, better work-life balance, etc? Focus on the good things about the offer you chose and the reasons you chose it and didn’t choose the other. Were you ambivalent about it from the beginning and applying out of desperation?
      I totally get what you mean by having choices being harder than being unemployed. After all, when you’re unemployed, the possibilities are endless (mentally)! Now you’re facing reality in a sense, and it’s going to affect your immediate future. Please focus on the good things about your new reality (you have a job! More than one company wanted you!)
      Good luck and congratulations!

    2. Artemesia*

      I know many people in this situation over the years including my son and DIL and daughter and SIL, my husband and myself. Men seldom seem to have problems turning down an offer; women often seem to make is a personal thing where they should feel guilty for not taking an offer. Try to squeeze any excuse making out of the conversation. You chose to go with another offer and it was a hard decision and you appreciate (whatever it is you appreciate about the recruitment process) You don’t have to justify this to anyone and particularly not to the job you are turning down.

      Great problem to have. Hope the choice works out; all jobs are disappointing in my experience — it always is better in fantasy or while being recruited than once working long hours in the real job. Because it won’t be everything you hoped for doesn’t mean it was not the right choice.

    3. Student*

      The people you’re talking to for turning down an offer don’t want to hear your personal employment odyssey. They don’t care about how great your new job is. They don’t want feedback on the hiring process.

      All they want is an answer and some business courtesy ritual. They want to clearly know if you are turning them down, or starting a negotiation about terms, or asking questions you may have about the job. Anything more than that is not necessary or expected or even probably welcome. “I’ve decided to turn down this offer to pursue a different opportunity. Thanks for your time. I vaguely wish you well with your project/customer/business.” Fill out the details as appropriate to personalize it a little, but no need to go beyond those three lines.

      Any discussion beyond that is either a counter-offer for the job, or them fishing for details on business competitors that you have just signed up with.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think nervousness is pretty normal, especially after being unemployed for a while.

      Decide to make your choice work. I know that seems not to be the answer to your question but in an odd way it is.
      Decide that you did the best you could with what information you have gathered and now you are just going to make the absolute best of the job you have chosen.

      It’s very easy to look at another job and say, “oh, greener pastures”. But it’s better to commit and apply ourselves to the job we have chosen to take.

  102. Sole*

    I’m currently working through a finance degree and am looking for finance/business related books written by women – does anyone have any resources? I’m finding a lot of ‘self-help’ style books, about asserting yourself in the workplace, the key to feminine success, get rich, etc. Not super interested in that angle, more into financial theory/practice/experience. Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks!

    1. MissGirl*

      I’m interested too. I recently saw a TED talk about how mentors are spending all their time with their women mentees talking about gaining confidence, speaking up, etc. They’re not, however, teaching business or technical sides of the company, which they are with the men. Incredibly frustrating.

    2. Big10Professor*

      This would be a great reason to drop by the office hours of one of your female professors. This question could be an excellent starting point for a relationship with them.

  103. Lab Tech*

    I’m looking for help brainstorming positions that fit my skills (similar to last week’s non-office work post). I work in a nanoscience startup, basically as a lab tech, and I’ve been here for three years. I graduated with a BS in physics four years ago, and had done a couple academic research internships. On paper this was my dream job, but I’m finding the work so tedious that I don’t want to work in a lab anymore. I’ve always been good at analytical thinking, but I don’t know any programming languages. I’m not even sure I want to work in the sciences anymore.

    What other jobs are out there for entry level lab techs?

    1. CAA*

      Do you like working with kids? If so, you could look into teaching science or delivering science programming at a museum.

      1. Lab Tech*

        I have volunteered off and on for kid’s science outreach groups. It’s fun! But I’ve never though about looking into it as a career. Thanks!

    2. Simone R*

      Were you ever interested in the lab work or was it tedious from the beginning? Did you enjoy your other research experiences? Maybe a different lab could be a better fit. I worked in one lab that was beyond tedious but have loved all my other positions. Have you researched non-bench jobs in science? There are tons of options out there (one link in reply) that you might not have considered. Otherwise, what are other things you like about your job or might want besides analytical thinking? Some more information about that might make it easier for people to give you ideas!

      2. Lab Tech*

        I found all my internships, my past job (also lab tech), and my current job tedious. I kept thinking they were flukes, but I now I think I just don’t like bench work! I like planning/organizing things and playing around in excel, but I’m guessing those are components of…most jobs.

        Thanks so much for that link!

    3. katamia*

      You could look into tutoring. You might not be able to do college tutoring without a BS (or maybe you would, I dunno), but you could certainly do AP/high school Physics (or whatever the equivalent is if you’re non-US) and maybe some of the other sciences or math depending on your strengths. I’d also suggest looking into becoming an academic editor, although editing can also be incredibly tedious.

      Other than finding the work tedious, what do you feel is missing in your work day/what would you like to be doing more of? Look for positions that would address those specific things.

      1. Anxa*

        On this:
        I’m a professional community college tutor. Having a B.S. gets me a slight pay bump and can be useful because it means I have tutored a variety of classes.

        The largest demand I see in science tutors is for allied health majors; community colleges are big on nursing and allied health programs.

        Not as many people take physics. However, there also aren’t as many tutors available to do physics.

        If you have a lot of A’s and B’s in math, you may be able to tutor physics and math and get more hours than if you were just a physics tutor.

        The hourly pay is fine, but the hours aren’t good. All those academic breaks add up, and are unpaid, so you miss out on a lot of pay. Your schedule changes every semester. You work alongside student coworkers and are often looked down upon by the administrative and support staff, and have to fight to assert yourself as an important part of the college community. If faculty are an after thought at a community college, tutors are often invisible. Not quite faculty, not quite staff.

        However, I love going to work every day and if I could turn it into a real career, I probably would. But there is almost no chance of going full-time and I’m kind of at the bottom rung in higher ed, and if I wanted to work full-time in there I’d be tempted to go for a higher paying, better respected position.

  105. Sophie*

    I had a weird interview this week and am still trying to process it. The head boss kept asking me questions
    like “What would you do if you had to….” and when I would answer he would say, “Well, maybe I should
    ask it this way…”

    It was like dealing with the Riddler or something… the guy would talk in circles.

    He then asked what position I was interviewing for (!) and when I answered questions, he’d be like
    “Where’d you hear that?” or “How do you know that?”

    He would then look at me and try to make eye contact by dipping his head down, but I was writing/taking notes.

    I don’t know if he was just bad at interviewing or trying to do a “stress interview” but it seriously made me a little angry.

    I don’t think I got it because it’s been a week and I haven’t heard back, but after that interview, I’m not sure I would want the position. (Plus, the company only has 1 star and a bunch of negative reviews on Glassdoor.)

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      With your experience and what’s on Glassdoor I’m sensing a dodged bullet there.

  106. MashaKasha*

    I sit in a cube farm not far from a server room. The server room has a humidity monitor that is programmed to beep whenever the humidity goes over a set threshold. So, anytime we are having a warm day with temps 80 or higher, it starts beeping. Which is a major migraine trigger for me. I honestly cannot do any work with that thing going off. First time it happened, I didn’t know what it was and came to the person in charge asking what was beeping, and he silenced it. Now it’s going off again, and probably will continue to do so more or less for most of the summer. I don’t want to bug the guy in charge each time that happens, but I cannot work with the beeping going on either. What would be the correct, work-appropriate way to contact someone, and who would be the right person to contact, to see if the sensor can be silenced once and for all? or, if that’s not an option, then that is something I need to know too, so that I can try to request WFH for those reasons. Another option I thought of was bringing in a white-noise generator, but I don’t think my cube farm neighbors will be happy about that. Already tried earplugs, did not help.

    1. London Engineer*

      Can you talk to the person who silenced it the first time? If no-one is actually doing anything in response to the beeping then turning it off shouldn’t be a big deal, and if they are then hopefully once you explain the problem they should be able to figure out another way of getting alerts.

      Alternatively if a white noise generator won’t work could you use an app with headphones?

    3. katamia*

      Any chance of getting moved, or would you hear it no matter where you were?

      Would headphones with music block it out?

    4. Ashie*

      If the put in a sensor presumably they want to know when it goes off. I would contact the guy every time it starts beeping. If he gets annoyed by the frequency he can take steps to mitigate the humidity or just turn off the sensor.
      Either way the IT department needs to know what’s happening, it should be their decision how to handle it. You can just be the messenger

    5. Simone R*

      Can you ask them how to turn the alarm off and then send them an email each time you do? We have a lot of things that alarm and often the alarm is set to go off long before there is an actual problem.

    6. LCL*

      You should talk to the technician who responds to the alarms, or his supervisor. Questions to ask are: Is the sensor a cheap stand alone COTS thing, or is it part of a larger monitoring system? Many annunciator devices have a choice of alarm tones, ask the tech to look into that. Some annunciator devices can be programmed to send an alert to a telecomm device, so the tech department is notified. If that’s the case it can be silenced locally. The big picture question to always ask re annunciators is; who is supposed to hear it, and what are they supposed to do about it? In the meantime, a low tech solution might be to put up a large (like 11×17″ paper) sign on the door that says “if alarm sounds call maintenance dept 867-5309.”

      1. MashaKasha*

        Jenny works in maintenance now? Good for her! heh heh

        Thanks, that’s good advice for the future (who knows how many other alarms they have in there).

    7. MashaKasha*

      Ah thanks!

      Great news – I was given incorrect information the first time, it seems. Found the person in charge of facilities/maintenance and he said it’s a faulty part in an AC that they are already aware of! Five minutes later, the beeping stopped! I <3 this man.

      Now that I think of it, it did not make a lot of sense that a sensor would be beeping, instead of sending a message, texting someone, or otherwise sending an alert to someone, since the people in charge of maintenance cannot hear it beeping from where they sit.

  107. Jennifer Walters*

    Just wanted to thank whoever mentioned the Pomodoro method in last week’s (?) thread! It was advice to someone working from home, but as an attorney who has billable hour quotas, it has upped my productivity and ability to accurately record my time spent on individual items AMAZINGLY WELL.

  108. Lana*

    I took a job in a male dominated work place and the guys all have tech backgrounds, even though our job is in a different field. Is there any way to fit in with tech-y snarky humor? Any tips?

    The job isn’t the best fit since I have a different background and I am sarcastic, but it doesn’t always translate well. But until I find something else, any tips would be appreciated.

    1. fposte*

      My feeling is that if you’re not a player, your best move may be to stay off the field; you can even explicitly set yourself up as the humor ref or the audience, or delegate a particularly good colleague to banter in your stead. Be cheerful and own your non-participator role rather than just going awkwardly silent mid-joking. “I’ll have a comeback to that by September, just you wait.”

      1. Lana*

        I’m horrible at comebacks, so it’d be more like, “I’ll have a comeback to that in two years.”

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m in a similar situation. I try to focus more on them taking me seriously in being capable of performing my job than being seen as someone to hang with. So while I have some fabulous comebacks, I usually squelch them unless it’s in chat. Then my fingers usually betray me.

  109. Orange*

    Should I ask someone questions even if I don’t need to?
    I’m a new part-timer here and there’s one full-time person here doing a job really similar to me. I’m actually using her desk for a bit while she’s on vacation because my work computer is getting replaced. I’ve noticed there’s a recent employee evaluation of hers taped to the wall, and it says one thing she needs to do is make herself more accessible to part-timers (there are only a couple of us) to answer questions and give advice, and my other supervisor mentioned a while ago that she comes across as intimidating to some younger employees. She’s repeatedly let me know she’s available if I need help, but the problem I just… don’t need help. But I don’t want her to get in trouble because no one is coming to her, so from time to time, should I ask her questions I already know the answer to, to help make her look good? Or am I meddling in something I needn’t be?

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t think there’s a need to go to her with questions if you don’t need the help. That’s just a waste of everyone’s time. Maybe if she lets you know about her availability again, you can just let her know that you appreciate it and you’ll let her know if you need help. If you really wanted to help make her look good, you could tell her supervisor how accessible she is and that she often offers her assistance (assuming that’s true, of course.)

    2. katamia*

      Don’t waste her time needlessly (I’ll admit this is one of my pet peeves and other people might not mind so much). This isn’t your issue to fix, especially since you probably weren’t supposed to see that evaluation (not your fault that she didn’t take it down before she left, though).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just go about your workday. If you have a real question then ask it, otherwise don’t worry about it.

  110. Insert witty name here*

    I’m in the library science field and after looking up people on Linkedin, a lot of people have jobs where they’ve only been there for a few months, the longest being a year or so. How do they do this? Are they contract jobs? Internships?

    When I’m in interviews, they question why I left my most recent job after 2 years! I can’t imagine what those people say for leaving their job only after a few months… (They probably have a good reason, but still…)

    1. Murphy*

      I’m not in library science specifically, but I had several temporary positions early in my career, such as working with a summer program. (And I also got fired once, but we don’t talk about that unless we have to!) I try to label the temporary positions when it’s not obvious that they’re temporary.

    2. PB*

      My first job post-library school was a contract position that lasted only 6 months. It was extended once, so I ended up staying a full year, but not everyone is that lucky.

      Some might be internships or student positions, which would be much shorter positions.

    3. AnonMarketer*

      Did a stint in library science for almost three years. My situation was like this:

      Their PR person wound up being downsized (since many library science jobs are government-based positions in my experience). They decided to go through my university for a student worker to see if they could get cheap labor because the library budget didn’t allow for a full-time worker. I wound up pretty much being the entire PR department until I finished undergrad, working for at max $8.25/hr. After I left, my understanding was they kept looking for student workers, but either no one wanted the position or they didn’t find candidates to their liking—not sure what happened after that. I held a couple library science internships between that in the summer and the environment can be fairly stagnant in the job responsibility sense. Since government jobs tend to be super competitive by nature, there was a lateral moving of people in positions in those jobs, usually moving from the library into another government field. Also, libraries tend to be prone to operating budget costs, so interns and student workers tend to be utilized fairly heavily.

    5. Records Manager/Librarian*

      Anecdotally, I know there are a lot of grand funded jobs (usually 1-2 years). When someone in a short-term position leaves for a permanent job or another grant position, there is still money and time left to fill out so someone else will be hired to fill in for the remaining time, which can be as short as a few months. Also, it could just be that someone took a job because it was all that was available, then left as soon as something better came along.

  111. LickitySplitAnon*

    I share a desk (we split days) with a super sensitive coworker who licks her fingers from tip to knuckle anytime she eats (and she’s always eating something and never goes to wash her hands), picks at her bare feet, and props her bare feet into our desk drawers. Our supervisor is aware of the behaviors, knows that it squicks me out, but can’t hardly do anything about it, besides get rid of the shared desk situation, which likely can’t happen. ARGH. How do you tell someone to stop licking themselves at work?

    1. Artemesia*

      If the supervisor knows and won’t do anything, I’d be investing in a big can of lysol wipes and wiping down the space any time I was going to be using it. Ick.

    2. Kat*

      Any chance you can ask to move desks? It sucks when managers don’t take action on these things. They are important.

    3. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’m the furthest thing from a germaphobe but your description of this person makes my skin crawl. I second the cleaning supplies.

    4. Working Rachel*

      Ew, NO. Why can’t the supervisor do anything? Are they just unwilling to? It seems very reasonable for whoever is higher up to say that it is a condition of her continuing employment for her to wear shoes and wash her hands after licking them.

      I think a direct conversation is in order, even if you have to do it. (Presumably you don’t spend all that much time together if you share a desk, so even if she’s sensitive and takes offense, it can’t get TOO bad?)

    5. Chaordic One*

      I think your description of your coworker is probably inaccurate. She sounds super IN-sensitive and like a slob, to boot. The suggestions about bringing your own cleaning supplies are probably about all you can reasonably do, but it is a sucky situation.

  112. Ashie*

    MONDAY our construction will be complete and I’ll have a real desk and a real phone and an actual OFFICE for the first time since I started here a year and a half ago! I can’t wait!!!

    1. Ashie*

      OH MY GOD I’m spoke too soon. Just got an email it will be Wednesday instead. I’m going to scream.

      1. OhBehave*

        Yes, but it’s Wednesday. Not a month from Wednesday! If you get the 4th off, then just one more day in cubeland.

  113. Ramona Flowers*

    In other news I handled a tricky situation quite well this week and I think I have the AAM community to thank.

    A slightly senior colleague, Jane (we report to the same manager but she leads some projects I work on) responded to something I said in a meeting by snapping at me – she made a really caustic, unfair comment that was pretty unpleasant and I felt humiliated.

    I was upset but I slept on it and thought about it and realised there might have been a misunderstanding. So the next day I asked to talk to Jane and checked if I was right about this misunderstanding (I was). Then brought up the way she responded to me in the meeting. She said it must have sounded really bad and explained why she said it.

    I told her I knew she was generally a kind and considerate person who wouldn’t deliberately set out to upset me – that she didn’t leave the meeting going “Yeah, I really showed Ramona back there!” – and that as a result I had figured there must have been some kind of misunderstanding behind her reaction. And that I just wanted to ask if she could try to do the same for me in future – to assume that I was on the same side as her and that if I seemed not to be then we were probably misunderstanding each other somehow. I think I threw in an AAM-style ‘can you do that?’

    She told me it was really brave and kind feedback.

    6. OhBehave*

      Great job in be restrained and sleeping on it. That conversation couldn’t have gone any better!

  114. beep boop*

    just a lil work venting for your friday… i covered a shift for a coworker on memorial day so that she could have a vacation, and now that we need coverage on july 4th, the general consensus (w/ my supervisors and myself) was that she’d cover it since i took the last holiday. but she booked a second vacation to the hamptons without telling anyone, so i’m stuck without a holiday again B-) it’s not so much about the holiday (don’t really care about that) but the extra day off would’ve been really good to rest up/get my mental health back at 100%. oh well i guess

    1. Temperance*

      Um, that’s not okay. I would really push back on it. I would also ask for extra pay and/or an extra day off.

      1. katamia*

        Agreed. Also book *something*, even if it’s something small (and preferably easily refundable if you decide you don’t want to do it), for whatever the next holiday is now so she can’t use the “I already booked something!” excuse again.

        1. beep boop*

          haha yep, i at least plan on saying i have family coming in (likely not true) or something else

    2. What's in a name*

      Sounds like you know whose working the next 4 holidays. Yes if you take 2 in a row you should have to do double before you get off again.

      1. Liane*

        Yes. I think beep boop ‘s boss should make it clear to Ms. Hamptons that the next 4 holidays are beep boop’s holidays and WON’T approve any time off vacation requests she makes for those dates.

        Which of course begs the question of why the July 4 conversation didn’t go like this:
        beep boop: I am off for the Fourth! Yay me!
        Ms. H: But–but–Hamptons!!! I have PLANS! No fairrrr!
        Boss: I sure hope your travel insurance covers “Boss Said Nope-nope-nope.” It doesn’t? Well, then I guess you will be starting your vacay, returning in time to work your 7/4 shift, and heading back after watching the fireworks.

    3. Artemesia*

      good example of how you can’t assume. The trade off should have been nailed down when you covered for her. Your manager sucks. The fact that she had ‘made plans’ should not have trumped the fact that it was your turn.

      1. OhBehave*

        Absolutely right! If this was not a verbal/written expectation, then that’s on the boss. “General consensus” implies assumptions. Never a good idea to assume someone knows what’s expected of them.

  115. Princess Buttercup*

    Hey! Thanks to everyone who answered my question last week about getting a Masters after working a bit.
    Basically I’m looking into a Masters in Psychology, but I don’t want to be a therapist. I’m potentially interested in becoming a psychometric, does anyone do that or have any experience with it?

    1. Anatexis*

      I’m starting a PhD in the fall to become a psychometrician and you’re going to need to get a PhD to work as a psychometrician. I have no idea what the regular route is into this field but I just finished an MS in a related field (educational psychology). You’re going to need a lot of stats classes and classes in measurement theory and item response theory and lots of other related fields. Basically, as much statistics as you can stand (and a little programming wouldn’t hurt either). You can google Stats Camp (run by Texas Tech and held this summer in New Mexico) and find some short term courses in those fields that might give you a taste for psychometrics. I haven’t attended Stats Camp but I’ve heard good things. Looking at Indeed for psychometrician jobs can give you a good idea of what else you might want to look into (like learning R or SPSS along with psychometric software like IRTPro or WINSTEPS).

  116. odot*

    I recently moved to a different team within our larger group. Our whole group works very closely together so I know the people on the new team already. It’s a step up in terms of the work that I’m assigned and I’m really happy with my projects. The thing is that my manager’s style is very different from previous managers I’ve had and doesn’t mesh as well with my strengths and weaknesses. His requests are often vague and he doesn’t give me much guidance on deadlines. He is very hands off. I do best with clear deadlines as procrastination can be a downfall of mine. And clear expectations up front reduce the chance of doing something only to have to change it. I feel like I’m somehow bothering him by asking him follow ups on every task, or like I should somehow know these things and it will reflect badly on me. I guess my question is, is it ok to ask him to change something about his management style, or is it up to me to adapt and work around it?

    1. fposte*

      Generally the onus is going to be on the staffer and not the manager, but that’s not a simple binary that closes off conversation. So I would figure out one or two of the main things that would help you and ask him if there’s a possibility that those could happen. But also come with specific proposals as to how these could happen with the least impact on him–“Hey, boss, I really like working with deadlines. When you give me a task, I’d like to come back to you with provisional deadlines for the steps and get approval from you for them–would that work for you, and what’s the best way for me to provide you with those?”

      I do think I’m hearing some risk aversion from you that you’d find it useful to get away from a little. A lot of times my assignments to my staff are vague not because I’m hiding information from them but because the specifics aren’t evolved at this point, and I expect that we’ll have to tweak and change directions along the way as the process and outside information clarifies the picture. The higher you go, the less likely work is to be one and done; there are too many stakes and moving parts to know in advance exactly what needs to happen.

    2. Sadsack*

      I’m not sure about asking him to change, probably not a good idea. One thing you might start doing is, if he is vague about a deadline, say or email, “I can have this done by July 7, will that work?” He should respond accordingly. That will be a start.

  117. Thursday Next*

    Thanks to everyone who offered advice as to whether pantyhose are required with skirts on a business casual environment. It turns out the definition of business casual in my division includes jeans so pantyhose definitely not required.
    And I’m glad the dress code is relatively casual, with a range of formalities seen, because it’s also a male dominated department so I don’t have many examples of styles to attempt to copy. (And even though it’s casual and I’ve never heard anyone remark about anyone dressing more or less nicely than the ‘norm’ I still get a little stressed when I’m planning what to wear)

  118. Alinea*

    I was very lucky in grad school that all my team members in group projects equally contributed.

    In work life…not so much!!! Why am I the only team member working on the shared email box (in addition to our own individual emails/projects)?! This has been going on for a while, but the last few weeks “Alice” has yet to respond to any emails in the group box, including the ones specifically addressed to her.

    How long can this go on? I feel like if I brought it up now (only three weeks of continuous Alice being MIA, but about 2-3 months of me being the one to pick up most of the work) it would be too soon and sound whiny. It feels good just to vent either way :)

    1. Artemesia*

      If you do something for 2 or 3 months, it is your job. You should have pushed back after two weeks max of this and should do it now. Think about how to broach it. Something about the needs of the group to be productive and that you can’t handle all of the group email and also accomplish tasks A B and C and need to clarify how to make sure this gets done in rotation.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      We have allocated days to man our shared inbox. Could you set that up? If a mail is for Alice the person whose day it is can forward it to her for her to deal with.

  119. Carin*

    Looking for impressions/experiences regarding continuing education that straddles multiple fields. I’m in a job that offers a lot of emotional and financial support for advanced degrees, and I enjoy learning, so I’m looking at long term options.

    For example, if I’m a Teapot Glaze Materials Engineer who has moved into managing a small team, would it make sense to go from a BS in Chemistry to a Master’s in Management Science? If I wanted to go further later on, could I jump back to a PhD in chemistry, or would I need to do an MS in chem first?

    (I know specific programs have specific requirements for admission. I’m looking for opinions about how the trajectory would appear on a resume, and the logic therin.)

    1. Simone R*

      In the US, many PhD programs don’t need a masters for admission, so you usually wouldn’t have to go back a do another masters. There are also some PhD programs that give you a different masters as well, like a PhD/MPH program so a mismatch there might not be so unusual.

      Can you look at people who have jobs that you would like and see what degrees they have?

    2. Newby*

      If you are thinking of getting a PhD as well as other degrees I highly suggest talking to people with the job you want to see how that would come across and determine the best order. Sometimes it is a good thing and other times you end up over-educated for an entry level position but under-qualified for a higher level position. It is all highly field dependent so there is no generic advice.

  120. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I work in event management and attention to detail is incredibly important. We have a junior staffer (first job out of college) who has been here for about 8 months. She has been very hard to train. She doesn’t seem to understand the important of attention to detail in her role. For example: her job is to print name badges for upcoming events. Every single time she prints name badges, there are at least 3 errors whether they be misspelled names or duplicates or missing names or what have you. I have printed out docs that I’ve proofread for her and marked up changes and said, “these changes will be consistent throughout everything we produce; please always check for X, Y, and Z” and still, those things are wrong on every doc ever.

    She also appears to be very literal. If you give her a task, you can’t assume she will do all the things that fall under the task. So, using the name badge example above, we have told her at least 15 times that name badges need to be printed in alphabetical order by last name. Unless we tell her “please print name badges in alpha order by last name,” she will not do this on her own; she will print name badges in whatever order they happen to be in.

    These examples sound small, but in a fast-paced environment and with a small team, we really count on everyone to pull their weight. Any suggestions on how to teach her to be more self-sufficient in completing these tasks in their entirety or on how to teach someone to pay more attention to detail?

    2. Graciosa*

      I have two answers for you.

      First, one training solution is standard work instructions. Write these out for each task (they can go in a binder as the instructions for that desk) and then tell her to always follow the instructions provided. This is a technique borrowed from manufacturing, and the theory is that any (reasonably competent) worker should be able to move to a new station and accomplish that work by following the instructions, even if the worker has never been at the station before.

      Second, do you really want to do this in your environment? It sounds like she is the wrong fit for this job. Someone with initiative would have made their own notes about the printing instructions after messing it up on one of the occasions long before this. Someone who is naturally talented in this area would have internalized it already without needing notes.

      I think you need to let her know that this is not working out (with specifics and a short timeline to turn it around before her job ends). She doesn’t understand that these details are important, so you need to be explicit that her job is in jeopardy.

      No one likes to have these conversations, but think about what your work life would be like if you had someone competent in the role.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Can’t print name tags would be a deal breaker for me. I have dealt with people who can’t xerox without leaving an inch off the edge of an important document. Such people are not really teachable. Yeah — one can screw up copying, but not noticing and fixing — that is hard to change. Once. Feedback. Twice. Fire them.

    3. katamia*

      Are you sure she’s willing or able to improve? I can’t tell from your description, but it seems like either she doesn’t care or she has some sort of mental block or other inability to learn what she needs to learn to do this job.

      If you (or someone else) hasn’t sat down with her and told her very clearly that this isn’t acceptable, then I think that really needs to happen. Since this is her first job out of college, she’s probably not calibrated yet as far as what’s normal or acceptable for the amount of mistakes to be making. If you (or someone else) has and she hasn’t improved, then…I dunno. It’s not a good sign.

      If you’re really committed to training her, maybe try detailed checklists if you haven’t? Get her in the habit of checking the checklist, and then in theory after awhile checking for the things on the checklist should become habit. Possibly even to the point of not accepting her work without the checklist (I hate suggesting this because it sounds so juvenile, but it sounds like she’s severely lacking in detail orientation and might need that level of help/hand-holding).

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Has she been told that she needs to improve and that she’ll be on thin ice if she doesn’t? Sometimes that’s all it takes. But usually it’s just a bad fit – I’d start giving her warnings now and make sure she knows it’s a real problem that could cost her the job. Then escalate to a PIP if necessary. It might also be a kindness to talk about how she might be happier in a job that’s a more natural fit for her and that you’ll be flexible if she wants to start looking. We did that with an executive assistant who made too many typos. She just never got better after multiple warnings and a PIP. They then gave her three months to find a new job and gave her time off for interviews.

    5. Newby*

      I have had several interns that were like this (not at the same time). For each I sat down with them and told them that I have corrected the same mistake multiple times and asked why it was still happening. When they had no explanation, I then told them attention to detail was a part of the job and if I had to keep repeating instructions every time they had to do the same task, the would be fired. One shaped up and became one of my best interns and one was fired. You can’t train someone to pay attention. You make it clear that it is necessary and then they do it or they don’t.

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I should add the following relevant details since all the advice has been similar so far (and spot on):

      – She doesn’t report to me. We share a manager, who is unfortunately pretty hands-off and not often physically in the office.
      – I do not think she cares about this job, so her intrinsic desire to be good at it is pretty low and will likely always be pretty low.
      – It is unlikely we would let her go due to the aforementioned hands-off managing, so I do truly need to figure out a way for me and my colleague to get her to improve.

      Newby, I think your approach of asking her why the same mistake keeps happening over and over again is a good one and I’ll try that next time!

      1. katamia*

        How aware is your manager of the real cost (in time and possibly also money if you’re doing a lot of reprinting/if her mistakes are causing you to be late) of her problems, then? Documenting her mistakes and showing them to the manager sounds rather middle schoolish (I wish I could think of something that seems less middle schoolish but am failing), but if the manager isn’t in the office often and only sees the final product (which, presumably, is good because her mistakes are being caught/fixed), then they may not realize just how bad things are. Might not help if the manager’s committed to being hands-off, but it might be worth a shot, too.

        Also, as much as possible, try to make sure the consequences of her mistakes are falling on *her* rather than on you. If she prints something out wrong, make sure she’s the one reprinting it correctly (if it takes her 10 times, make her do 10 times) rather than you or your other coworker. To the extent this is possible (and I’m assuming it’s not that possible in event management, but to the extent that it is), let her fail on her own.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Also, as much as possible, try to make sure the consequences of her mistakes are falling on *her* rather than on you.

          I definitely struggle here, as someone who is used to being an event team of 1 rather than having someone to delegate to, and very much being in the mindset of “okay she’s done this wrong nine times, and I want it done right and I want it done now, so I’ll just take it from here.” That’s a failure on my part for sure. I admitted to my boss last week that I am not a patient teacher, especially in crunch times, so I know that’s an area of improvement on my end.

          We’re in the middle of our busy season, and I think it would be good if we documented each time she held us up with her mistakes and brought that to our bonus as a overall summary of her performance on our two largest events of the year. I know it’s on my boss to come up with a PIP from there, but I’ll look into the checklists, procedure manuals, and other suggestions made above to hopefully eliminate some of the mistakes before they happen.

          1. Observer*

            Do you have a smart phone? If yes, the documentation of issues will be much easier. There are a ton of apps you could use – basically any note taker (My current favorites are Google Keep and Evernote for different things.) Or even a document with a table pinned to the home screen with a column for date, issue and negative effect (eg time wasted, needed to print color prints 3 times instead of once, etc.) If you have the phone with you, then it’s easy to just make the note as things happen rather than remembering and entering a list later.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Some people need to be jolted. You could try saying things such as, “We have talked about this before. Name tags are always in alphabetical order by last name. What is your plan so you do not forget this again?”

      Since she has made so many mistakes and seems to not care, you can point out that someone else had to redo her work. Explain that this is not a good thing in most jobs.

      My wise friend used to say we should match what is coming at us. With this in mind, her blatant lack of improvement would mean to me that it was open for discussion at any time.
      For myself, I would ask them if they had a plan to prevent further mistakes. In some ways asking them that was WORSE than if I had just been witchy to them.

      Eight months is long enough to shed the types of mistakes that are made on the first day. She no longer deserves the slack we cut people on their first day/week. I’d feel free to keep a continuing conversation open on “preventing mistakes”.

  121. Hiding in the Bathroom, again...*

    So, I’ve posted before about my company moving buildings. For the past month all the employees have been working in one room on folding tables. I’ve been silently suffering, finding comfort in the fact that this is temporary.

    The cubicles have been installed in the permanent working space and people have been learning their locations. I’m dead center of the room. My work is 90% writing, and I need to concentrate. I’m near the loudest people of the organization, which isn’t saying much since theres only 15 FT employees. My old workspace was an office with a door, far away from noise and I’ve learned this month I can’t perform at my best with people laughing, talking loudly, and keeping their phones on top volume all around me– while I have headphones in.

    As soon as I saw the setup I had an anxiety attack. Knowing this Is How I’ll be permanently working here, with all these distractions, makes me feel like I can’t breathe. This is a literal 180 from how I worked here when I was initially hired. I would feel more at ease if I switched locations to a corner of the room… I’m not getting my old office back, but I think it would be better than working in The eye of the hurricane. My manager plays favorites and I don’t know if shell care, but I know I need to have a conversation so she is aware how I’m feeling.

    I’m also young. Like, Millenial young. Any way I can confront her without sounding entitled? Or should I just suck it up?

    1. katamia*

      It’s not entitled to say something like “Because I’ll be doing so much writing, I’ll really need to concentrate. Is there any chance I could be moved to the edge of the cubicle/wherever would be better so I can have fewer distractions?” She might say no, but there is, objectively, nothing wrong with asking. You say she plays favorites and it sounds like you’re not one of the favorites, so it sounds like you might not get it/she might not react well. But that doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with asking for something like this.

    2. Newby*

      Does everyone do a lot of writing? If so, you won’t be able to make a good case for moving since you are all in the same boat. If you are one of the only ones then you can bring up the problem you have focusing with all the noise and see if you can move. If you can’t move you might see if they would let you wear noise canceling headphones.

      1. Bea W*

        A colleague of mine invested in a good pair of noise cancelling headphones after we moved to an area surrounded by people who were on the phone all day as part of their job. My group works with data and needs the quiet to concentrate. The noise was driving her mad to the point she was leaving work early upset and frustrated because she couldn’t stand it anymore. Ear plugs weren’t cutting it, and we had no control over where anyone sat. (We tried!) I recommend a Bose model that I had used on several plane trips that totally blocked out everything. They were expensive, but she got so desperate she decided to bite the bullet and buy them.

        She has been so happy since she got the headphones. She loves them. Can’t hear a thing! She says they were worth every penny. She’s had them about a year and hasn’t complained about the noise since. Maybe your company will be willing to pay for some noise cancelling headphones, but if not they are worth the investment out of your pocket to save your sanity and career.

      2. Hiding in the Bathroom, again...*

        I don’t know what other jobs do exactly, but I know for a fact mine is the only one that is writing-intensively (grantwriting)

        And I DO wear noise-canceling headphones, like Beats By Dre. I can still hear two of my coworkers. They have boisterous laughs, and they’re senior to me. My biggest issue is that I’m sandwiched between them in the cubicle setup. I don’t know why- our work doesn’t overlap.

        1. Artemesia*

          You need to have a conversation with whomever assigned space/your boss with a focus on your need for concentration to do grant writing, the fact that you have tried to cope by using noise canceling headphones and that being between two very loud people has made that unsuccessful. Have an idea in mind of a solution. Never bring a problem to a boss if you cannot see some sort of solution. In your case, if a cube on the edge would work, suggest that. Always focus on productivity and getting the job done for the organization and not on your personal discomfort or annoyance. I had much better results getting stuff when I started doing that.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          If yours is the only writing-intensive one then you’re really not being unreasonable.

  122. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So I accidentally complained about the person who cuts the Friday donuts in half “who does that anyway?” TO the person who does that. Oops!

    Also, I am a little less exhausted. My wife is becoming more mobile, even with her broken leg, and some people yesterday and this weekend are bringing food over and etc. so I don’t drown in chores and cooking!

    1. KT*

      Hahah! People in our office cut everything in half too (e.g. donuts, cookies, chocolates, singular slices of cake or pie). I find it utterly annoying. Me? I just take a whole piece of whatever it is.

      1. Ange*

        Yeah, someone at work cut a chocolate in half the other day. Now that is really odd given it’s bite-size anyway.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I am guilty of being a donut half-cutter. Sometimes I only want half a donut, so then someone else gets to have the portion that I would have otherwise just thrown out. If it were up to me, ALL donuts would be cut in half and then you get to take two flavors for the price of one :)

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, we do a lot of half-pieces and even quarter-pieces, and it’s no big deal. I think this is just one of those things that bugs some people just because; I have plenty of those myself, so I can’t judge.

      2. Beachlover*

        Guilty here, also! it helps me limit my goody intake. If i take the whole donut, I will eat the whole donut!

        1. Artemesia*

          If I take a half donut I will eat that and then take another half and maybe another. I always brought in boxes of donuts occasionally at my workplace because I knew I was a donut offender.

      4. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        One of my coworkers is a donut half-cutter, but only if she can find someone to take the other half (usually me), so it works out just fine.

      6. neverjaunty*

        Also, when we bring in donuts from the Super Hoity Toity Donut Place, the donuts are ENORMOUS. If you are over 25 and you eat a whole one, you’ll be in a sugar coma. Of course people cut them in half!

    3. Here we go again*

      I did the same thing a few weeks ago too! Glad I’m not the only one. If you only want half of something, find someone to split it with first, then cut it in half and share with that person, but don’t leave half there. It really grosses me out.

      1. Artemesia*

        I find this inexplicable. What is wrong with a cleanly cut half donut? Just goes to show that we really can’t order our behavior around what we personally think is inoffensive.

    4. hermit crab*

      This almost 100% unrelated to your post, but you said “donut” and that reminded me, and I think people will enjoy this. I received the following comment in a program evaluation this week (from a workshop about incorporating source water protection into town planning):

      What did you like least about the workshop?
      The donuts were too tasty.

      (also, I’m glad you’re feeling better!)

  123. ken*

    Just over a year ago I left a high level position at a nonprofit to take a position at another nonprofit with only 4 staff total. Within weeks, I realized this was not a good fit, and the director, who has been in charge for over 30 years was not going to change. The director isn’t a bad person but is a complete control freak and I am relegated to tasks that someone with half my experience and salary could easily be doing. I have been quietly job searching and am about to go on a second interview. I’m cautiously optimistic, but if I do get the job I am absolutely dreading the conversation with the director. It’s never easy to suddenly find out you are going to lose one quarter of your workforce, but the really awful part is the director’s spouse passed away this week. I was feeling tremendously guilty about the possibility of leaving before this happened, and now I literally feel sick whenever I think about what I would say. If I do end up leaving, how do I start the conversation, and what do I do to get over the guilt?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Try to remember that you’re not a quarter of the workforce if you look beyond headcount. As you’ve noted here, you’re not getting to do much or working at full capacity.

      It’s sad that her spouse passed away but it’s okay to do what’s right for you. Don’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You can say you started looking before her husband passed or you did not realize her husband was ill, which ever is appropriate. Then apologize for the bad timing. Announce that you will be leaving as of x date.
      If she asks why, you can talk about fit and fairness. Say that someone else working at a lower rate could do the job and that would benefit the org.

      I think most people would feel some level of guilt on this one. If it is justified is another story, you can feel bad and still be aware that you did not cause all the layers of complexity here. If you can shift to regret as in “I really regret the timing on this…” maybe that would help. (If you want a parallel, think of reading of a horrible accident in the news we feel sad for the families, but we don’t feel guilty about it.)

  124. Sabrina Spellman*

    I think your best bet is to make it about your ability to complete your work and not about what you need personally.

  125. Potential postdoc*

    I have a question about what to wear to what seems to be a sort of informal interview. I have been looking for a post doc position and sometimes get invited to meet to talk about the position. Do I wear a suit? Slacks with a nice shirt? Jeans? I’m leaning towards slacks with a nice shirt since then I won’t be wildly off either way.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Am I correct in assuming you’re a guy? I would actually lean towards a suit. A post-doc interview is still an interview. If you arrive and it seems really informal, you can ditch the tie and the jacket, but dress slacks and a nice shirt (and nice-ish shoes, not boots) are always appropriate. If you’re a woman, then I would go with either a suit (same rule about ditching the jacket and tie if necessary) or a conservative dress with a cardigan or jacket. (My source for all of this is my partner, who is a doctoral student. He wears dress pants and a dress shirt to teach and a suit to all conferences, interviews, etc.)

      1. Simone R*

        Maybe it depends on your field? We just had a bunch of formal postdoc interviews and no one was in a suit, just dressed up a little bit more than daily wear.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Good point. Partner is in economics, where everyone leans pretty conservative in terms of dress. We and some friends recently had a discussion where this very thing came up, and how one of their colleagues wasn’t getting any offers because of how he presented himself in interviews (it was more than his dress, but dress was a huge part of it– he refused to invest in or even borrow a nice pair of pants).

            1. Simone R*

              And now that I think about it, it varies geographically within the US as well. OP, this a case of know your situation! Maybe ask your advisor?

    2. Simone R*

      Academia is pretty casual so slacks with a nice shirt seems perfect to me-suit would be way to formal.

  126. Jenny Jenkins*

    Probably too late to the party (so many comments already!), but looking for some insight :) I was recently (announced yesterday – so very recent!) promoted to a director of my team and will have more direct reports. I have had one for about a year now and she’s progressing well, getting promoted herself, etc. However, I’m still building my management style.

    Wondering what “style” did your best manager employ, and was there anything in particular that your manager did that was beneficial in job satisfaction and growth?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I hope you see this as I’m replying a bit after the fact. There’s a link coming that has gone to moderation about a few different management styles that might be worth a look. Make sure you read the description of the exercise underneath the styles themselves.

      What I really appreciate:
      -Being available enough. My manager is super busy but I know she will make time for me if needed. I’ve had managers in the past where that wasn’t the case.
      -Letting me work in the way I prefer, which is to set aside specific time to make lists, plan and reflect on what I need to do. If I can do that I am very happy, organised and productive.
      -Letting me flag important priorities for discussion in my 1:1s. I pretty much wanted to kill a previous manager who used to waste precious time with completely pointless questions. (Examples would be too specific so you’ll have to trust me that they really were pointless.)
      -Respecting and valuing the expertise I was hired for. My last manager was a bit insecure and wouldn’t ask for my input which sometimes resulted in mistakes. Whereas grandboss happily asks for my input. Wisdom is knowing when you don’t know.
      -Letting me have some projects I can own and not needing to be The Manager Of Everything.
      -I like the fact that when my current manager is deciding what to do about something she takes a step back and says okay so what is the actual purpose of this, what outcome do we want to end up with, rather than making an arbitrary decision or sticking to something ‘just because’.

  127. Outta Here*

    Freedom freedom freedom oy!

    Weeks on and freedom is looking pretty nice!

    The old job is turning into a dumpster fire as everyone is abandoning ship (~50% turnover after 5+years of zero). I don’t think there will ba a glorious reckoning, but at least I’m no longer in it.

    Have to say sometimes I am disappointed by the lack of reckoning, though.

    1. Observer*

      If there has been this much turnover, then the reckoning WILL happen if it’s not already. It may not be dramatic and sudden but it will be real.

  128. workload anon*

    My manager has the bad habit of sending emails that say things like “can we meet tomorrow” or “can we talk tomorrow” at like 4:30pm, leaving people to wonder what the topic of conversation will be about. At the end of my six month probation, she emailed me on Friday at 4:29 that we would have our meeting next week, leaving me to think about it all weekend.

    Annnnd she just did it again. Emailed me while I was out on lunch asking if we could discuss my workload on Tuesday (it’s a long weekend for Canada day). I’m a little freaked out and now have three days to dwell on it – every so often she’ll ask me how I’m doing. I do feel a little bit like I might’ve been letting things slip lately, so I’m concerned this might be a “you’re not performing to standards” talk. Perhaps they’re planning to add something to my workload; it could be innocent. But why do people do this?!

    1. workload anon*

      Wish you could edit comments – I sent a reply back to her and said “Yes sure. Do you mind if I ask if this is a bad conversation or a good conversation?” But I doubt I’ll get a response (and don’t want one if she answers bad), and I’m having regrets about asking. Not how I wanted to end a week!

    2. Camellia*

      Have the meetings ended up being mostly bad or mostly good/okay? If the latter, maybe just keep reminding yourself of that?

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I would love to answer this a standalone post (which means I’d delete it here and answer it next week as a post). Would that be okay? (Fine to say no!)

      2. workload anon*

        I always wanted to add that after she sent me the email while I was away at lunch, she left. So there was no opportunity for me to ask her what was going on.

    4. Newby*

      I hate vague e-mails about wanting to meet. It is so stressful. I got an e-mail that just said “come see me” and freaked out trying to figure out what I had done wrong. They just wanted to update a meeting schedule! It could have all been done by e-mail!

    5. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’m an HR manager in a manufacturing company where a large portion of the staff do not have email. Consequently, I’m frequently emailing supervisors with requests to relay to their staff. During a time when we had to do some layoffs, I needed to see several people who were eligible for our health insurance, and sent a message to the supervisor indicating just that. They came to my office, and I went over the benefits package, then asked if they had any questions and was met with slightly terrified silence. Finally, one of them spoke up and said, “(supervisor) didn’t tell us why we were coming to your office. We thought we were getting fired.” *facepalm*

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can share links! I’d argue it focuses on small stuff at the expense of the sort of resume advice that would have a much bigger impact (like what the content is). And the one-page resume rule has long been dead for people more than a few years out of school, there’s no reason you can’t use periods, and there’s nothing wrong with having an email address that has a number in it. The fact that she’s focused on that stuff makes me think she hasn’t done much hiring.

      1. Beth Anne*

        Yeah I agree I don’t think she has done much hiring. You are right she doesn’t give much advice on what should actually be in the resume.

  130. (another) b*

    Any advice on staying positive throughout a job search? I was laid off a few months ago bc of an asset sale, had interviews with SIX companies and they all declined to hire me. I am feeling so discouraged. I’m 10 years into my career and was on a great trajectory and I feel like a failure now.

    1. Incognito*

      I can totally relate. Every rejection, no matter how positively worded, is like a blow to the head. My only advice is keep your support network close and stay busy with things that make you feel good in general and good about yourself. The good thing is you are getting interviews, 6 in a few months time? That’s actually really good even though it feels really awful because none of them resulted in an offer.

      I am having the same issue, and I decided to buy Alison’s book to see where I can make adjustments. I am getting a lot of responses and have had 4 interviews with 2 more coming up, so my resume is doing it’s job, but so far no offers (Well, I nearly had one, but it was squished by lawyers, which felt worse than not being selected at all.)

      At least I still have a job even if it’s causing me to cry as soon as I wake up and have to face going in. I can imagine it’s twice as hard when you are out of work.

    2. Artemesia*

      I know someone who went through a patch like this and was beginning to think she was getting sandbagged by a reference and then voila, a great job that lead to several career enhancing promotions. Hang in there.

  131. Incognito*

    I have another round of interviews happening, which is maybe the only thing keeping me sane. Most days it is all I can do not to quit before I have another job lined up. My manager is a huge part of the problem, and some of it really looks deliberate for whatever reason she would have to try to manage me out. ALL of it looks crazy.

    Word of advice to all the managers out there: The revenge management style never ends well for the manager.

    I am using the quiet first couple of weeks in July to get a jump on tying up loose ends and documenting things that need to be transitioned when I leave so that I am able to submit my resignation at any time when I’m either offered a job I really want or run out of f*cks to give. I fear the latter may happen first, in which case I will enjoy every last bit of summer to the fullest!

  132. Councilman Jamm*

    I work in a city but live in the suburbs and commute by train. I’d like to find a job closer to home so I can lessen my commute time. But how do I discretely interview during the work day when I’m so far away?

    Basically I want a job with a 30 minute or less drive time from my house. But if the interview is 1 hour drive time plus time for the actual interview plus a 1+ hour train ride to my job (and that’s assuming I haven’t just missed a train and need to wait a couple hours for the next one) I’d pretty much be at my job for like 2 hours before having to leave. I’m a legal assistant so working from home isn’t really an option (part of my job is just being here for when things pop up) and I really need to leave at 5pm so I can get home and nurse my baby (ie: the reason I want a job closer to home).

    So do I just call in sick every time I have an interview? Explain to my boss that I want a job closer to home and hope she understands? Some other option that I’m totally missing?

    1. Newby*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss and feel confident that she won’t fire you you could tell her, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case. Do you need to give an explanation when you take time off? Just using a vacation day sounds like the easiest option. If you boss does require an explanation you can go with: running errands, things have been hectic and you need a day to recharge, catching up on chores, or some other excuse that you can’t be accused of lying if seen out and about. It also doesn’t have to be a lie, you can do the interview and run errands or do chores or rest up or whatever excuse you want.

    2. New Bee*

      If you can take partial days, can you say you have an appointment or something? It would make sense for your doctor, dentist, etc. to be near your house, so you’d have logical pretext for coming late/leaving early.

  133. Super anon*

    I got a promotion at work to a higher role (different work, higher title).

    My work has been advertising for my old position, except they put the wrong description up. Its been weeks and we’ve told the department VP that it was wrong, but it never got changed. And now they have interviews scheduled – and these are people who applied thinking they would be doing much higher level of work.

    There was a meeting and I think the description is finally getting changed. But…I feel bad for all of the people who applied thinking they would be doing A, B, and C, but instead are going to be doing X, Y, and Z.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This sounds like it would also be a massive waste of time for your employer! Are they not willing to recirculate the posting with the correct job description, as well as follow up with interview candidates to let them know the position has changed? At least giving them a head’s up could allow them to opt out if they decide it’s not for them…

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, that happened to me–a recruiter called me for the posted position, which had a lot of writing and editing and sounded great, and we had a conversation that indicated it might be a good fit. So he submitted me, and then the hiring manager called and was like, “I don’t know what they told you but someone wrote this job description while I was on vacation and it’s totally wrong.” She went on to say I probably wouldn’t be happy in the job–it was completely different. That was that. :(

  134. anon24*

    I’m quitting my awful, toxic job! My last day is next Friday.

    **happy dance**

    I started reading AAM this past winter and realized how toxic and unhealthy this place is. I’ve only been there since April of last year, and I figured that I would have to stay here for 2 years at least because I have 2 short jobs before this. But my husband switched jobs and doubled his salary so I’m taking the rest of the summer off and then going back to school!!! I never got to go to college and have been working crappy entry level jobs that literally make me want to die. I’m super excited and completely terrified all at the same time! I never thought I would have the opportunity to do something I’ve chosen to do and I’m so thankful that my husband is ok with working some extra hours to support us in the meantime!

    2. Menacia*

      Congrats! I hope you will find your college experience as rewarding (and eye-opening) as I have (even though I’m 20+ years into my career). It’s amazing the amount of confidence I have gained during the process (have four courses left to complete). Take this opportunity and use it for all its worth!

      1. anon24*

        Thank you! I’m actually just doing a certification program so by this time next year I should be job hunting in the field I’ve always wanted to join (EMT). And we’ll see where life takes me from there, but I’m hoping to keep continuing my education. I never would have actually tried to make this work if it wasn’t for AAM!

  135. chi type*

    There’s probably not a set answer to this but, Alison, how long should we wait before assuming you probably won’t be answering a question?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I ask that you give me a couple of weeks and after that it’s fair game to post it here if you want. That said, I print letters all the time that are several months old (sometimes even more), just because there are lots of letters I want to print and I can’t do them all as quickly as would be ideal. So you’re also welcome to email and check if I have you in a “definitely to answer” queue or not.

  136. Librarian Ish*

    A couple weeks back there was conversation about armpits in the workplace. One of the main points towards them being unacceptable was the note that men cannot show their armpits in the workplace/wear sleeveless shirts.

    This got me thinking – along that line of reasoning, what about sandals? Are there any sandals that men could wear in the workplace? Or can only women wear them?

    1. katamia*

      I’ve seen some nice brown (leather?) men’s sandals that I think would be work-acceptable. Will post a couple links in a followup comment.

    2. Emi.*

      Men just have grosser feet.

      Really I think it’s a formality thing–I don’t think it’s weird for men to wear sandals at the same level of casualness as the women (if she can wear tevas, so can he), but women have more formal/dressy sandal options, so if that level of dress is required, the men are shut out of the sandal club.

    4. Ann*

      Not what you are asking but I have been thinking about the no armpits thing as I look around my workplace in South Florida. Almost every female employee is wearing a sleeveless top. Our dress code is business casual no jeans.

  137. Sugar of lead*

    I need several opinions on this. What would you do if:
    You were going about your business one day and happened to run into a new hire, of about six weeks. You don’t work closely together and have only run into her once or twice.
    Conversationally, you ask her how she’s enjoying working here. She responds that it kind of blows. You ask why. She says that she can’t stop making mistakes that she should’ve stopped making ages ago, and that her coworkers hate working with her, and people keep making fun of her and she’s confused all the time because she can’t tell what’s a joke and what’s serious, and that she isn’t cut out for this type of work and intends to hand in her notice. A little taken aback, you offer some kind of platitudes about learning from your mistakes and move on because you’re on kind of a clock here.
    After this encounter, do you or do you not tell management what she said and why?

    1. katamia*

      If I trusted management, both in general to handle this well and specifically to not rat me out as the person who passed on the information, maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, emphasizing things like people making fun of her over the mistakes. Since she’s only six weeks in, it might be worth a conversation to see if there’s extra training or something they can do to help her improve. And even if not, then management should be made aware (if you think they aren’t already aware/okay with this) that people aren’t treating her well.

      If I didn’t trust management to handle it sensitively, then no, I wouldn’t. I’d just try to be kind to her while she was there if I saw her again and hope her next job works out better for her.

    2. fposte*

      Let’s see. I’m at manager level and I would know the manager of this person, so I’d definitely drop a note to new hire’s manager saying “Ran into H; she sounds unhappy and I thought I’d mention it to you in case you didn’t know.” I wouldn’t go into specifics about job searching or details of the person’s distress, because they’re so all over the map that it doesn’t translate to a flag about her particular unit.

      If I didn’t know this person’s manager from Adam, I probably wouldn’t communicate directly. In my current department, if I weren’t manager level, I might go to my manager and say “Hey, I ran into a really unhappy new hire–is that information you think Jane-her-manager should know?”

    3. This Daydreamer*

      I would ask the new hire if she would like to have lunch. Maybe you could help her out a little bit with advice, or just give her a chance to vent.

    4. Dot Warner*

      If I don’t know the new hire or her manager and I’m not familiar with the type of work she does, I’d stay out of it. One, it’s really none of my business, and two, if she really isn’t cut out for this type of work and she’s miserable, she’d be better off leaving.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I would not say anything unless it was part of an on-going problem that was being openly discussed.
      I have gone in on these things a couple times and it never went well. If upper management is involved and watching the whole story line, then I might reconsider.

  138. Huntington*

    OMG my coworker not only eats noisily at his desk ALL DAY LONG but sucks food off his fingers. It’s the most disgusting thing.

    4. nep*

      I could not tolerate that. There’s no way I could concentrate on anything. I once asked a co-worker to stop popping her gum. (Makes me cringe to think about that noise, or loud eating. Awful.) I told her the sound was too distracting, asked her to stop. (It ended up taking a couple of times.) Good luck to you.

  139. Kat*

    I have a question about asking for a raise. I have been in my current position for nearly 18 months. I’m the only person on my team doing my job, as the other woman who was in the same role has recently gone on maternity leave. I do a lot of checking, training, helping new people (there have been a few recently, so lots of answering questions and being supportive and correcting errors), on top of my actual day-to-day work. I also cover my manager when she is on holiday, so essentially do her job on top of my own. That involves allocating work, working towards targets, dealing with HR issues, chairing meetings, etc. I haven’t had a pay rise since I started this position and am at the bottom of my pay grade. I want to ask for one, as I think I deserve it, and feel I can back it up with examples. However, we recently all got pay increases because all the pay grades were bumped up. So basically everyone got a pay rise no matter how good/bad they’ve been at their job. That’s fine – but is it OK for me now to go and say, actually, on top of that, I was a pay rise on merit? I don’t want to seem greedy but it’s not 100% about the money. Of course a bit more would be really helpful, but it’s also the only way to know I’m progressing up my pay grade. I don’t want to be at the bottom forever, and I’m the only one on the team so can’t even vaguely compare myself with anyone else (even though that wouldn’t solve the issue, anyway).

    Any thoughts? Even how to best approach the conversation?

      1. Anna Held*

        Lord yes! Be prepared with specifics of the extra work you’ve taken on, particularly management duties. That’s huge! Don’t forget to print out emails praising your work, the original job description vs. what you’re doing now, thank you notes, professional development, etc. You won’t use all of that file, but it’ll give you confidence in the meeting and help you with specifics. Do your research on what a job at your new level would pay you too, so you have a range in mind.

        And if they’re really not willing to do anything for you, you have the file ready in case you decide to job search.

        1. Kat*

          It’s tricky because I don’t have those sorts of emails or any thank yous… Not written anyway. The company is small and me asking for a raise will be just me asking my manager (who is my friend… awkward enough for me!) and she knows what I’ve been doing. I guess I just need to explain. I don’t need a massive increase. It’s just so I know I am progressing. I’m 33 and I need to know I’m in the right direction. Already having work doubts, so I guess this would help them, but I’m working on my CV at this time too. It’s all very stressful.

      2. Bex*

        Honestly, 18 months isn’t very long and you have already gotten a raise. Everything you have mentioned seems pretty normal to me. I think if you took on full-time responsibilities that went above and beyond, then you might have an argument, but right now it kind of sounds like general “being a team player” stuff. Do you have an annual review process? That might be a time to consider bringing it up, if you can show that your duties have permanently increased.

        1. Kat*

          The thing is I’m doing my job and can’t do more that is above and beyond because… this is the job I am given to do. I can’t keep trying to think up more stuff I can do to move up the pay grade. Surely if the pay grade is for my job then me doing it well and doing more of the same is all I can do? I’ve had no guidance on how I can do ‘more’, and honestly there is no time. I am swamped with my own work as it is as I’m the only senior person in my team. I’m happy to help the team but I don’t want to be undervalued. If I left they would be in trouble. Small company… and usually I have had a raise sooner than this, which I guess is why I am wondering. I guess I shouldn’t.

        2. Kat*

          I feel I should add context. I’ve been with the company over 5 years and was promoted after 4 (second promotion), so from entry level I worked up quite quickly through pay increases. That’s partly why to me 18 months is a long time. I’m not greedy, honest. :(

          1. Anna Held*

            But you said you had taken on extra duties, including management duties. Even if it’s temporary it’s proof that you 1) are willing to step up when needed; 2) can do the work; 3) are trusted to do the work. I think it can’t hurt to ask. Maybe frame it in terms of a “where will I be in 5 years” type conversation if it makes you more comfortable. But if they’d be in trouble without you AND you’ve been taking on extra, it’s only right that you should get a raise based on that! At least find out if a raise or promotion is in your future.

  140. Which city?*

    I have reached my limit with what I can endure at my workplace. Luckily, it’s pretty easy to transfer to other locations within the company, and I’m not all too committed to my current city, so theoretically I can get out of here within the next six weeks or so and not even derail my career!

    I’ve narrowed it down to two choices:
    City A is not somewhere I had ever considered living until now – weather, mainly, and the overall vibe – but I’m friends with a lot of people who work for my company there. They have a larger, currently-expanding, well-run operation with a lot of opportunities during the expansion. They have a much lower COL than my current city, but pay the same rates as mine, so even with moving expenses it would essentially be a raise.

    City B is somewhere I have considered moving to for non-work reasons. A lot of them weather-related, but I really like the city in general. It has a much higher COL and while they pay slightly more, it would basically be a pay cut overall and it would be tough. I hardly know anyone there and they have a lot more operational issues than City A, but the cause of the operational issues is really exciting and something I’d like to be in on even though it’s kind of a mess this early on. But I’m very easy-going up until management gets personally cruel toward people, and I have it on good authority that it’s not like that there. Opportunities in City B are better for me, thanks to factors related to the operational issues, but living expenses would be a struggle for a good year or so. I have the savings for it but it wouldn’t be fun.

    I’ve put some feelers out and both cities are falling all over themselves to convince me to pick them. And it’s so hard to decide! I think City A makes the most sense on the face of it…I’d be swimming in money, I have tons of friends there already, and I’d be part of a functional, sane workplace for once. I mainly want to move to City B because it gets horrible snowstorms in the winter, and because I like mass chaos, which seem like terrible reasons? I’m worried that in City A I’ll just be bored. Either way, I only have to commit for a year. There are almost always openings at my level and if I pick City A and don’t like it I could probably go to City B in 2018, or vice versa.

    Thoughts?

    1. Potatoe*

      I think that your instincts are correct on this– and especially since this is the sort of decision that you CAN try both options, down the line. Stay with City A for a year, and then if you find that you’re still craving the opportunities and chaos of City B, you can springboard into that with some nice, padded savings accounts so make that transition easier! What’s the worst that could happen? You’re bored and uninspired by your job/location for a year while swimming in money and friends.

      1. Which city?*

        It’s very much a case of “my head says City A and my heart says City B.” ;_; A year seems so long!

    2. Parenthetically*

      You only have to commit for a year? A! Tons of friends pushes it over the top for sure. Moving is really disorienting, and having an inbuilt circle of people who can bring you wine and takeout your first weekend there, who can help you move into your new place or paint, is priceless. Add the money (which you can sock away and live cheap to help you get to City B) and it seems like a smart choice!

      1. Which city?*

        I don’t mind moving places where I don’t know anyone (I’ve done it a bunch of times) but it certainly would be easier…I’m just worried I’d spend the whole year wishing I was in City B instead. The one thing about City B I didn’t mention is that it would be easier to visit my friends in my current city from there than from City A.

    3. Carin*

      You WANT to move somewhere that has horrible snowstorms? Am I reading that correctly? If so, you’re crazy, and should choose whichever city has a better asylum. :p

      1. KT*

        As someone who, a year ago, moved to a massive city for work, I suggest you go where you have considerable built-in social support. I have great pay, awesome benefits, and a fairly stable/fulfilling work environment, but not having a social support has been a thorn in my side. I cannot stress the importance of that enough.

        The added bonus as others have pointed out, is the financial savings. With the one-year commitment you’ll be able to save up for another move to City B if you decide that City A is not ultimately where you want to be. Or travel with all the money you’re saving!

      2. Which city?*

        But snowstorms are the best!! I mean, I’ve spent three of the past five years in a place it doesn’t snow in the winter, and in my current city it barely snows (just gets extremely cold and stays dry, which is annoying). So I would survive it, but it is something I feel sad about a lot…

        In terms of knowing people, I’ve done big moves a lot and don’t mind knowing nobody there – the most attractive thing about this situation is that a lot of the people I know are from my company, so I know what the work culture is like and that it would be a good fit for me.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Snowstorms are the best because you’re very far away from them.

          The thing about mass chaos is, when you’re in the middle of it, it becomes very personal chaos. What looks cool and exciting on the Weather Channel is a lot less cool and exciting when your car slides into a ditch and it’s below freezing. Or when you twist your ankle on icy sidewalks trying to get to the bus stop. Or when somebody you care about dies in a fifteen-car pileup on the main commuter highway.

          TL;DR, yes, those are terrible reasons. City A sound a lot better.

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Would you be able to enjoy City B if you went there? This will sound silly, but I was considering two similarly-paying jobs, one in an area where I had a handful of friends and COL was much lower. The other city was bigger, more cosmopolitan, and chock-full of friends, but COL was so high that I would likely not get to see them or hang out or enjoy cultural life, even on a frugal budget (there were certainly free events, but the ancillary costs of transit, etc., made them less affordable).

      If you’re not going to really get to enjoy all the things you like about City B, then I would move to City A. I also tend to favor working places where I have a friend/support network (I’ve lived in places without it, but it’s an added part of your life to fill when you’re already feeling a little tapped out b/c of finances). So I think it depends on the experiences you want to have in each city, and the features that matter most to you (e.g., reliable public transit, friend/social group, access to nature, quality of housing, etc., etc.).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The problem with choosing chaos is we don’t get to pick WHAT is chaotic. So be aware that things you value may also be in chaos and therefore useless.

      Second thought. On the financial side you said you will be living off of savings to cover the gap. Serious snow storms are a financial drain in hidden ways. Costs can include gas to run snow blowers, generators, etc.; extra food purchases because there is no power to cook, clothing costs, emergency supplies such as flashlights and batteries; costs to pay people to remove snow; chiropractic (other medical) costs from removing snow yourself; damage to your home or car and so on. At one point I found that almost every single bill I have increases during a hard winter. Can you do some worst case scenarios so you have an accurate idea of what this will really cost you to move to this city?

      Maybe your real question is about how you deal with your own boredom. It seems that there could be easier ways to solve this other than relying on external disasters to prevent boredom.

  141. Potatoe*

    One of my coworkers is incredibly disorganized and constantly drops the ball on doing things in a timely manner, in an area of business where giving notices, dates, and deadlines are incredibly important. I’m in a small office with a relatively flat “hierarchy,” and while I’m senior to her in terms of responsibilities and how long I’ve been there, our duties don’t overlap, though everything she does impacts me and vice versa.

    I know her manager has had a couple conversations about her disorganization and inability to keep track of…. anything, and nothing has changed. Everything she’s doing (or rather, NOT doing) costs us revenue, time, and customer good will. I’m trying to decide if I ought to have a frank conversation with our boss, the owner of the company, regarding her issues.

    I’ve seen more than a few comments in previous posts about how it’s horrid to “get people fired” or “mess with their livelihoods.” I like my coworker as a person just fine– we get along well, and even have very compatible interests. She, like everyone else, has rent to pay and food to buy and maybe this is terrible and cruel, but I do…. kind of want her fired. I feel like she’s the cause of her own problems– if she’d do her job well, then it wouldn’t be an issue, but she clearly can’t or won’t, so why keep her around, you know? But maybe I’m being too cold about this.

    Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I think the responses you’re hearing are mostly about people reaching out to employers they don’t work for about activities their employees are engaging in outside of work. If anybody really think it’s horrible to tell a manager about a screwup colleague, they’ve never worked with a screwup colleague.

      I think this is a time for the classic meeting with the manager to say “How do you want me to handle the situation when Jane misses deadlines and I need to reprioritize my work to fix the problem?” Don’t go crazy with supporting docs, but if it’s happened x times in the last month and that’s a regular rate, that’s useful information.

      1. Potatoe*

        Yeah… part of it is that I know I have to resist the urge to feel like I’m “tattling” on someone whose job I theoretically have no say or input in, except when it affects my job adversely. The other part is that I know my boss is extremely conflict adverse, so I was wondering if I should go in guns a’blazing, as it were, to really impress on him the problem. But that probably won’t be as professional as it should be.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Start out like an average conversation. If you see your points are not sinking in then escalate. But don’t start at the escalated end, give him a chance to absorb what you are talking about. If you can put dollar values on the damage going on here that may help you.

      2. Jessesgirl72*

        No, I’ve seen the scenario Potatoe describes too, but normally it comes with a caveat of “unless it directly impacts your work. Otherwise, people are generally advised to keep their eyes in their own lane and concentrate on their own work.

        But if this is really impacting the business and Potatoe specifically, then that is a different matter.

        1. Potatoe*

          It definitely is. >:C I’m especially frustrated because I’m not even supposed to be peripherally involved in the work she does… and yet I somehow end up chasing after her on deadlines and documents for her tasks because I’m the one who has to deal with all the client fallout when they’re not done.

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            Then don’t go in guns ablazing, but go in with specific examples of the money it is costing the office and how it impacts your ability to do your job.

            I’ve noticed that the conflict adverse won’t find their backbone on behalf of one of their reports, but laying out how the business is shedding money and customers can prod them into action.

            At the very least, you need your boss’s direction as to what you’re supposed to do when she’s dropped the ball for the 100th time.

    2. Sabrina Spellman*

      Have you had any conversation with your coworker about this issue? I know most managers want to see that some work was done on the front end before an issue is brought to their attention.

      1. Potatoe*

        I haven’t had a direct conversation with my coworker about this because I haven’t really felt that it’s my place– I’m not her manager, I theoretically have no idea what she’s doing, her priorities, and what tasks she’s assigned to. I only deal with the consequences– angry customers who yell at me, revenue shifted out of the month, last minute scrambles to kick out certain items while I call people and apologize.

        We do have a lot of conversations that amount to, “So, about [X] matter, did you do the thing you were supposed to do, so I can do the thing I’m supposed to do?” and she’ll sigh and say she lost track of it, so I feel like she should have some idea about how massively she’s dropping the ball.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          If she’s sighing and saying she lost track of it, that is actually the perfect opening to tell her how this impacts you and that you need her to do better. (calmly and politely, but you could say something!)

        2. neverjaunty*

          Suggested scripts:

          “What is your plan to make sure that you don’t lose track of it next time?”

          “Jane, your losing track of things is becoming a problem and it’s affecting my work. It’s not reasonable that I am bearing the consequences of your not getting things done. I’d like us to meet with Manager to develop a plan.”

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I have had good luck with drawing up images of angry customers. “Oh, we have to get that done or Bob will be so angry. Then we will have real problems.” or “We need that report by tomorrow, otherwise Jane will be upset. We don’t want to have to deal with angry people, we have enough work to do.”

  142. Colette*

    Several months ago, I took on a director-level role overseeing a team of 8. This is the largest team I’ve managed. We’re all millennials, though I’m on the older edge. The VP hired me and advised me that some or all of the team were significantly under-performing, though VP didn’t know if it was lack of oversight (it took them a year to find a new director) or incompetence. Because of this, VP did not allow the team to be part of the hiring process.

    It was a struggle at first – I referred to it as “the mutiny” to my friends. The team really resisted having a manager at all, they liked being unsupervised. They were used to working 25 hours and collecting a 40-hour salary. (Seriously, they’d come in at 10 and leave at 3, and didn’t ever work from home.) And I implemented a project management system, which ended up increasing their workloads and adding accountability for deadlines, which they hated.

    Long story short, two of the team members just put in their notices and both said they have no job lined up after this. Both said variants of “I liked this job because it was easy but now it’s not.”

    I realize that there will be some turnover when there is a new director with new policies who significantly changes what the work environment is like. Does anyone have insight on expected turnover rate for a situation like this? Or maybe I should just be thankful that the two loudest mutineers are leaving so I can replace with people who have buy-in? I guess I’m worried now that maybe I’m a terrible boss that people are quitting without new jobs, but they also were genuinely underperforming employees who resisted every move.

    1. Potatoe*

      It sounds like your team is just shedding some much needed dead weight– don’t worry about the circumstances that they left in (especially since it wasn’t because of your poor treatment of them, but their inability to work well) and just bask in the relief.

      People often treat quitting a job without anything lined up as a really big deal– and sometimes it is. But there are tons of other possibilities, like your ex-employees are trust fund babies with bucketloads of cash to spare, have plenty in savings to tide them over, plan on sponging off their parents or significant others for a while, or are just plain too naive and overconfident (that’s where I’d bet) to realize that they’re sort of shooting themselves in the foot there. None of that is your concern.

    2. fposte*

      I’m sure there’s an official management metric for this somewhere, but I don’t know it; however, I would expect significant turnover either from firing or quitting in a situation like this, and quitting is a lot easier on you so I would definitely be pretty relieved in your position. You’re talking a big and important change, and it’s pretty common for people to find this tough even if it’s reasonable.

      So go find a couple of replacements who kick ass and lead your unit to glory.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      If they hired you to be a change agent — and it sounds like they did — even 100% turnover within a year would not be the least bit surprising. At least, not to me.

    4. BRR*

      People are quitting because you’re doing a good job. You could always ask your other director reports about things but I’m not sure they would give you honest feedback about anything and it’s not like you’ll let them work 25-hour weeks.

    5. Wheezy Weasel*

      Do you have metrics to show the VP that business in your division has improved? That’s going to be the high card in the game. If you’re down 2 people and business has improved, deadlines are being met, and the team is performing better, I doubt two staff leaving is even going to make a ripple.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds normal to me.
      And no, you are not a horrible boss because you asked people to do their jobs. There are many factors that go into being a horrible boss and having two lazy employees quit because you told them they had to do their work is not proof you are horrible.

  143. MC*

    Hello! I applied a few months ago at an organization and was one of the finalists for a position, but didn’t get it. The hiring manager encouraged me to keep in touch and keep monitoring their openings. Now I’ve applied to another position in a different department. Should I let the manager I interviewed with before know I applied? Would that be intrusive? Would it be weird not to? Thank you!

    1. Frustrated Optimist*

      If you felt that the previous hiring manager was genuine in her statements to you about keeping in touch, etc., I’d say sure, go ahead and drop her a line.

      For similar situations, I’ve said something like, “Feel free to mention to my name [to new hiring manager] if you’d feel comfortable doing so!”

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I know you say you’ve done this in the past, but ‘feel free’ seems a bit pushy to me when you want a favour from someone. If they know you’ve applied they’ll do that if they want. So I think I’d say something like: thanks so much for encouraging me to reapply, I’ve just applied for the x role.

        1. Frustrated Optimist*

          I don’t disagree with your interpretation, but at least in my head, the tone is more breezy. =) And I hope that the caveat of “if you’d feel comfortable doing so” makes it sound little less pushy.

          Also, when I’ve done this, I haven’t even been thinking of it as a favor that I’m requesting. It’s more like, “If you happen to run into [new hiring manager], and it crosses your mind, I would be most grateful if my name would even pass your lips.”

          Because that previous hiring manager wasn’t my mentor or anything. She was more of a passing acquaintance whom (I hope!) I impressed favorably.

  144. Cobblestone*

    I sent out an email, our first initial contact, to a client. I don’t have a gendered name (it’s also non-English), and he replied to me with a “Mr. Stone”.

    This certainly is not the first time it’s happened to me, nor the last, but being male is not the default.

    Also, you don’t get to shorten my hyphenated name into only the first part, *especially* if I don’t sign my emails that way.

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Oooh, that’s a pet peeve of mine! I used to have a hypenated name, and it was amazing how many people shortened it because the actual form was “too much work.” Or people who claim they can’t pronounce someone’s name when in reality it’s because they’re too lazy or inconsiderate to learn how to pronounce it.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had a colleague with a name that is generally assumed to be female but he is male. His signature line was (Mr) first name last name.

    3. Allergist*

      Actually it is a common issue that the email program will drop hyphened names. My guess is the are looking at the email heater and not your signature. My friend Lee-Ann gets referred to as Lee all the time.

  145. Clever Name*

    When one is changing their name due to a divorce, what is a good way to handle notifying colleagues/clients of your new name/email? A coworker recently got married and had a line similar to this in her email signature: “I recently got hitched! Please note my new last name and email address.” I’m assuming I’ll do something similar, but I know if I stick with something really straightforward like, “My last name has recently changed. Please note my new email address” I’ll end up awkwardly fielding messages of congratulations. I’m sure others have gone through this. How did you handle it?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I would not respond to any emails of congratulations you might receive. It would be so tacky to assume marriage when you’re informed of someone’s name change! I like your wording– use that.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        This recently happened to me when I congratulated my new financial adviser in a meeting with her after her name change. Oops, turned out her name change was after her divorce. (Somehow I had erroneously thought she was engaged.) A bit of awkwardness ensued when she explained, but then it was onward to the task at hand.
        It makes sense to just ignore any erroneous e-mail congratulations and only clarify if something is said to you in person. Most business contacts will not really care about the reason why your name is changing.

        1. Clever Name*

          This is good to hear from the other side. I’m good with ignoring congrats emails but saying something in person.

    2. hermit crab*

      I think that’s a good approach and. I have never changed my name (for any reason) but I’ve definitely seen the wayward congratulations thing happen to others. The most awkward time was when someone sent a group “Please note my new email address” message and someone replied with some really tone-deaf congratulations. Based on that, I think the more subtle email signature approach might be better. (Though the person who’d who changed her name in that story actually thought the mass reply-all congratulations were kind of great. She was like, heck yeah, I deserve some congratulations for dealing with this rotten situation! So YMMV.)

  146. Mrs Soup*

    I am sure this has been posted before in this thread or AAM has probably already covered it. This morning, I was let go from my job before my 90 day probation period was up. It was handled professionally. No hard feelings. I was given criticism of my job performance and they asked for my feedback. In the end, I was a good performer but wasn’t necessarily living up to their expectations. They stated that we didn’t want to waste each other’s time so it was best that we parted ways. That was that.

    In my entire working career, this is the first job where I have been let go (terminated?) so it’s kind of a punch in the gut to me right now. I know it’s going to take time and I will eventually find something. So my question is: How do I recover from something like this? What can I do when I find the next job to make sure it’s fitting for me so I don’t go through this again. I feel awfully disappointed in myself so this is definitely a learning experience. Any advice or some words would be appreciated.

    1. Mr. Demeanor*

      This is where hindsight being 20/20 might be helpful. Thinking back to your interview, are there any questions you could have asked that would have helped you determine that this was a bad fit? Any red flags that you might have missed or ignored? Were expectations clearly mapped out? Was there a time during probation you identified that your employers were unhappy with your performance? Was there anything you could have done differently? This might help you map out strategies in the future as you interview and start a new position. Or perhaps you might discover that you couldn’t have done anything different and it just a square peg/round hole situation.

      I’m sorry about your losing your job, but you already are showing that you are handling this with grace and dignity. Be sure to stay kind to yourself and do at least one really good thing for yourself during the holiday weekend. Be well.

  147. Office Mercenary*

    I have a bad habit of overthinking everything related to networking etiquette and freezing up instead of asking for help. I’m applying to a job opening I just found that closes today, and not only am I qualified, the boss happens to have had the same grad school advisor as me. I cited this person’s dissertation in one of my papers! Is it tacky to name-drop in a cover letter? Should I contact our advisor and ask him to put in a good word? List my advisor as a reference? (He loved my dissertation and submitted a reference letter for me in a fellowship application.) This seems too good to be true and I really don’t want to miss the deadline tonight!

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Yes, to listing your advisor as a reference and put in a good word.

      No, to putting that in the cover letter.

      Mentioning all of that when you get the interview, sure.

  148. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

    I currently work at a job that I really don’t enjoy very much (mainly because the business is horrendously dysfunctional), but the perk is that it’s close to home and the pay is decent for where I live, which is a rural area with very little work for folks with degrees. I’ve commuted to the nearest city for jobs before (at least 45 min each way when there’s no traffic) and never found a good way to reconcile myself to the time wasted on the commute. But the jobs were also pretty low-paying and unsatisfying, so there’s that, too. So I’m wondering if I found a good job with a better salary, if the commute would be more tolerable. Anyone experience anything similar that can offer insight? (I’m also watching the commuting thread above.)

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I have a commute and I love it. I’ve always felt that way so I haven’t had to learn to love it, which is different to you. I use the time to decompress, daydream, read, watch Netflix (you can download to watch offline) and journal. I treat it as really precious me-time. I avoid most threads on commuting (though just haven’t spotted the one you mention) as everyone else seems to always take the position that commuting is inherently bad and obviously to be avoided or at best tolerated. The Lifehacker website also has some good posts on enjoying/reclaiming your commute.

      1. neverjaunty*

        A commute is kind of different when you can read and watch Netflix in peace. When you’re driving, or when you’re jostled and can’t watch Netflix because phone thefts are common, it’s a little bit different.

      2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

        Yep, I think if I was riding a train, it would be a non-issue because I could actually use that time to accomplish something. When I’m driving, it just feels like wasted time.

    2. Observer*

      I’d bet that if you were commuting for a job you really liked and / or that paid well, you’d be better able to see the commute as just the price you pay for a good job rather than something to resent.

      There are ways to make a commute less annoying, as well. The simplest is finding something useful and / or interesting to listen to in your car. If you have a podcast (or set of podcasts) you really enjoy, the car is a good place for them. If there is a subject you want to learn about and you can find a set of lectures, that’s another good one (always assuming it’s a subject that doesn’t require tons of concentration, of course.)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have always noticed I perk up when I am getting a better rate of pay. ;)

      It only makes sense, with better rates of pay we can feel like we are getting somewhere in life. Not only are basic needs met but there might be room for extra. Knowing this can give us incentive.

  149. this situation is probably vague to everyone but me*

    My manager let our team know confidentially they are taking steps to manage out our slacker coworker that is everyone’s bitch eating crackers (that or documenting steps to let her go. It seems like an either/or situation). I felt petty being relieved they were doing something but this person makes everyone’s job so much more difficult and our company usually lets go people who suck, so we were getting increasingly frustrated it looked like nothing was being done (the person works at a different location but on our same team/group).

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      I’m glad you Manager let you know they are doing something. It’s such a morale hit to have someone like that on your team, and seemingly getting away with slacking!

      1. this situation is probably vague to everyone but me*

        It certainly makes it a little less onerous to clean up messes she makes and her inability to not pass the buck on things!

  150. AnonyTech*

    Hey all, I just wanted some … insight? Reassurance? Something along those lines about what happened this week.

    I got (what I thought was) a job offer, and am feeling gutted about what happened. Basically, I had a Skype interview for a great position across the country to a city I would have loved to move to. Hiring Manager reiterated the salary and benefits, I negotiated and accepted. At this point, we were talking as though this were a done deal – moving logistics, apartment recommendations, and the like. I still did have an in-person interview (at my request), but it was, again, talked about as more of a tour/meet-and-greet. So, I asked for an offer letter, since I would need it to secure housing and finance the move. No problem, right?

    Instead, I got a decidedly Not-Offer letter making it clear that in no uncertain terms have will not decide until successful completion of the on-sight interview. It also reiterated that they won’t fly me out there on their dime unless I agree to accept their job offer now, almost making it sound as though they would try and charge me for the travel if I ended up declining or working for them for less than 2 years (they introduced a 2-year stay requirement for this job sometime after the interview). On top of that, the job title was a full rank lower than what we had agreed on.

    Concerned that they’d try and charge me if I pulled out after they booked the tickets (they repeated the acceptance condition no less that 3 times at this point), I made the call to decline their interview request, and – since it was clear we were at an impasse regarding the timing of my accepting the offer – and wished them the best in filling this position. Part of what went into that was the unexplained title lowering and introducing a weird 2-year condition. It all sounded reasonable by itself, but all at once, plus the requiring me to accept an offer they’re not willing to extend had alarm bells going off that made me dread the prospect of flying out there.

    However, this happened on Monday, and I’m still completely devastated. I thought I *had* an offer, but it was apparently only one-way. And this wasn’t exactly me reading too much into the situation – they were very transparent about the fact that they had every intention of hiring me. I had a family function on Sunday, and went ahead and told my extended family about the move, since I wasn’t sure when I’d see everyone again to tell them. Now I’m going to have to explain, no. I don’t have the job. Because I hastily burned the bridge.

    Looking back, there was a distinct change in the hiring manager’s demeanor after I negotiated on salary – almost as thought they didn’t believe I wouldn’t be happy with the compromise we reached, and so they started introducing these extra terms to ensure I stay. But, that might be reading too much into it.

    I definitely could have been less absolute in declining the interview, but they were clear on their terms and I started panicking about getting an unreasonable travel bill that I shouldn’t have to pay dinging my credit score, and needed to decide before they booked the tickets. I didn’t have time to collect my thoughts.

    I guess, my question is, what would the AAM-approved approach have been to this situation? What went wrong? (More poignantly, is the screw up on my shoulders or theirs?)

    1. Sibley*

      So, they made an offer, you accepted, then they started changing everything on you? I’d back out too! From what you describe, they messed something up. It’s a bummer, but keep looking.

    2. over educated*

      That’s completely bizarre that your on-site interview was contingent upon accepting a job they weren’t offering you at that point. Totally bizarre. I’m sorry and I don’t think you were unreasonable.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I agree with Sibley — they started changes things after an offer was made an accepted. The screw up is with them. My sibling accepted a job across the country, and he has a clause that Company pays for relo and if he leaves before X years, he pays whatever declining percentage, which is also how my signing bonus works (just for 1 year though). I think you may have dodged a bullet on this one.

    4. Artemesia*

      Sounds like you dodged a bullet there. I may be overly paranoid, but are you a woman? Yanking people around like this when they negotiate is something I have never heard of happening to a man but have several anecdotes from female friends like this.

  151. Floridanon*

    We just got goodie bags of tchochkes to celebrate end of fiscal year and the bags themselves were poop bags. Thankfully never used. *sigh*

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      I mean, I’ve gotten individually packaged poop bags as part of a goody bag (in mini-eggs like you’d see from a kids bubblegum type machine, and so useful!)- from a dog rescue. But that does seem a little… unappreciative from your work! I mean, even a ziploc would be better optics!

  152. Dienna Howard*

    I started taking free ASL classes (I took ASL in the past through an adult education course) and received a packet in the class with a series of comics called “That Deaf Guy” sprinkled in the material. I looked up the series and enjoy the comics.

    One of the comics was this one. Todd is going to a job interview and is using an interpreter. The interviewer asks how they’ll be able to communicate with him sans interpreter and Todd gives a snappy answer. In the next panel he talks about his interview with Desmond (brown hair) and Brad (blond hair). While I like how this brings humor to a situation like this, it’s likely an all too real example about what those in the Deaf community go through when they’re trying to get a job that they’re qualified to do.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      A former colleague of mine is currently learning BSL as he has a new report who is deaf and uses sign language. Apparently all is his team are learning it.

      Sadly I suspect this is not the norm.

  153. over educated*

    I’m taking a page from MegaMoose’s book and starting a networking push. I figure I have a year left in my job and instead of just applying and trying to make a case that I’m qualified for anything that looks interesting, I should take some time to explore my options and get a better idea of what possibilities are out and what I would need to do to become competitive. I’m not sure my current job is necessarily focusing on the types of work I’d like to move toward, and my sector’s employment prospects are really awful right now, so it’s time to explore. Also, I’m now in a city where people say networks are especially important in getting jobs, so I have to put myself out there.

    My original plan was to try to reach out to one contact or do some other career-related thing each day, but I don’t have the time and energy for that, I think I’ll try for once a week. Starting with the easier “asks” – old classmates, people in other divisions in my current workplace, etc. Today I spent my lunch break talking to a former colleague and friend over the phone about the field she’s in now, and she suggested some new terms and resources that I think will be very helpful to check out.

    Wish me luck in finding a path forward, and please share any great tips or advice on networking and informational interviews!

    1. over educated*

      Oh, and one awkward but potentially good interaction already came out of this – a more senior coworker wanted to know why I couldn’t join for lunch, and then asked questions about exactly what my phone call was about, and eventually said, “Oh, you’re looking into the private sector? You should just go into [my old type of company]. That’s the obvious choice for [our shared academic background].” I said that I didn’t think I could because the people I’d spoken to about it in my last city said that no matter your education level, if you’re new to that type of company you have to start at the 100% travel, low paid hourly entry level for a few years, which I can’t do with a small kid. Coworker said that is not his experience in other regions and that I should take that advice with a grain of salt and talk to people in the companies in this region. They might say the same thing, but I was ready to write off that whole field, so it’s good to hear there’s more variation.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Woo, good luck! I don’t know about your level of people tolerance, but I’ve aimed for two contacts a week and even that has taken focus and effort. It sounds like you’ve got more of a clear goal with networking than I started off with, which is nice – I’m still bouncing between “I want a job in your area” networking and “tell me what you do” networking but trying to make sure to keep the two separate and clear. I think the second is more relaxing, or at least, I’ve felt more comfortable with those meetings. This week I had lunch with a former coworker (pre-law school) who is an attorney for non-profits, an area I really haven’t looked into much at all. She reminded me that another former coworker does compliance, and is going to connect me with someone who does lobbying, so apparently the early summer net is going pretty wide. Who knows!

      1. Overeducated*

        Good luck! It’s neat to hear that people are starting to connect you to others. I am just doing “tell me more about what you do” networking now, but I think as the year progresses I will move more toward “I want a job in your area” networking, and I’m not sure how to do that. How do you keep them clear and approach them differently?

    3. Anon for this*

      Can I ask how you find people to network with, and what you ask them?

      I’ve known for the past two years that I should really leave my current job (teaching), but for a whole host of reasons, including the school year cycle, I’m having trouble with this. I may leave teaching altogether, I may just find another position. Not sure yet. I should be networking but am not sure how to get started. I’d love to hear more about your approach to this, if you don’t mind.

      2. Overeducated*

        I just made a list of people I know who work in areas of interest (mostly people from grad school or other parts of my organization – I’m in a non-permanent position so this will not hurt me at work), and I’m contacting them one at a time to ask for information and advice. I have also been given contact info for a complete stranger but haven’t written to her yet!

        Honestly I’m starting with the easy ones, people I have a personal relationship with or for whom mentoring within the organization is expected, but I suspect it will get harder when I am reaching out further and seriously looking for a job. With any luck some of the early stage info and advice will help me narrow things down and become a better candidate for specific jobs by then, or that’s the hope.

  154. Accidental Tech Girl*

    1. For people, who are in tech. If you know anything about APIs, I use packages, and SDKs to get access to APIs. How would you say this in my resume? I don’t write the code for the package, just: a) figure where the package, b) how it works , if not ask the creator of package for help c) figure out nomenclature and what data to pull…

    2. I happen to use certain programming languages (R, python) to do some stuff (APIs, data cleaning, reducing time it takes reporting). I am not a developer, probably I am a bad coder as well, but that’s what you get when you have to learn by yourself without any compsci background. I am more like a queen of google than a developer. I just don’t know how to explain that in my resume without boasting.

    2. Undine*

      What is this in service of? It sounds like you do some reporting. So I would build it around the reporting, for example:
      Use R to clean data and perform basic statistical analysis.
      Basic data normalization using R and python
      Use the XYZ SDK to extract data from …
      Work with our in-house SDK

      In a cover letter: “Although I am not a programmer, I taught myself enough R and python to do the data cleaning required for my job. I also use the blah blah blah SDK to retrieve data from the middle layer of Jupiter’s crust and the moons of Mars.” (Or “use the in-house SDKs created by our developers to extract data from Pluto and Proserpine.”)

      Other terms might be: familiarity with, able to use, knowledge of. I think they will see more than one applicant with your type of skills, so they should get what you are driving at.

  155. Kathleen Adams*

    Around Easter, one of my coworkers (a very, very nice guy) sent out company-wide an email that I considered wildly inappropriate, and when I posted a synopsis of it here, the commenters also considered it wildly inappropriate. The organization I work for is openly Christian (it isn’t part of our mission or anything, but it’s made clear in our official policy), and my colleague and I are both Christian, so if it had been a simple “Have a blessed Easter,” I wouldn’t have thought much about it. But instead he sent out a sermonette on the meaning of Good Friday that included statements that I did not agree with – and that I’m confident a reasonable number of other Christians wouldn’t agree with either. I’m sure he didn’t intend that – I am sure (as I said, he’s a really good guy) that he intended it to be something that all of us nice Christian folk could say “Amen!” to. He thought he was speaking for us all, and he definitely was not.

    One complication is that my supervisor is quite new, and my coworker’s supervisor is even newer (he’d worked here less than a month at the time this happened), so I didn’t think either of them would know the best way to address this problem. We also don’t have an HR department, per se. So I thought about it for a couple of days, and I posted a question in an open thread here. I did eventually discuss it with my supervisor (who had concerns very similar to mine), and both she and the AAM commenters suggested the same tactic, which was to discuss it with our chief of staff. I ended up sending the chief of staff an email that outlined my concerns. She wrote back saying that the COO would probably talk to me about it further, and that both she and the COO “strive for a work environment that is supportive of all of our employees.”

    Since then, nuthin’. Not a word from the chief of staff or the COO, but then again, no further sermonettes from my co-worker either (we’ll see what happens the next time a religious holiday comes around, I guess).

    My question is, was it unreasonable of me to expect to hear something? I wouldn’t expect to hear if they’d disciplined my coworker, of course (and I really doubt that it would have gone as far as actual “discipline” anyway), but should I have heard if they’d talked to him or anything like that? I’d like some assurance that they at least considered my concerns.

    1. self employed*

      I don’t think they’d get back to you — the ball is in their court and you wouldn’t be privy to disciplinary stuff. I’d drop it. Is there a reason you didn’t approach the coworker directly?

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        I seriously considered that, but it was just so…so flagrantly wrong (at least to me) that I truly thought and think management needed to be aware that it made at least some employees pretty uncomfortable. It’s pretty normal around here for people to include vaguely religious wording in their emails (e.g., “Some of you may have heard that Waheen is in the hospital, and I know he’d appreciate your thoughts and prayers”), and while this went way farther than that, I was afraid that it was near enough to the ballpark (though definitely not *in* the ballpark, IMO) that it could become the new normal. And I truly think that it made other people besides me uncomfortable. I therefore decided somebody needed to go on record as saying “I know we’re a Christian organization, but there is such a thing as going to far, and this went too far.” And the only way to go on record was by telling management.

        That was my thinking, anyway. If he does it again, I will consider talking to him directly, but I just didn’t want to get into the whole “But we’re a Christian organization!” “Yes, but there’s more than one way to be a Christian!” discussion if I could possibly avoid it.

        1. Emi.*

          Yeeaaahhhh, I totally understand why you didn’t talk to him yourself. That could’ve been a weird mess.

          1. Kathleen Adams*

            “Weird mess” is a good way to put it! The way it seemed to me is if I’d said something, it could have turned into me and my “version” of Christianity vs. the co-worker’s version. But if management talks to him, it would just be less personal, which would be (or so I tell myself :-) ) better for everybody.

      2. Kathleen Adams*

        Thanks for your input, Emi and Self. I expect you’re right. I really want to know, but oh well!

    2. Emi.*

      I don’t think it’s weird that they didn’t talk to you about it, except that they said the COO probably would. It would have been better for the COO to say something after that, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect them to tell you whether they talked to him. They already said they “strive for a work environment that is supportive of all of our employees,” and I think that kind of thing is all you’d have gotten if the COO had followed up with.

  156. Annon 4 now*

    My brother was recently fired from a job he’s held for 12 years. It’s a utility company and he started at 19 digging ditches and has worked his way up to being an engineer. His union is fighting the firing since the company didn’t follow their own policies, tbh the company is laying off a bunch of people and probably thought they could cut him loose w/o the severance package (which would haven been ridiculously good 4 weeks plus 2 weeks for every year worked :-O). So the union is fighting it, but they said it could be 1-2 YEARS. In the meantime he has no job, no degree, and only experience. I’ve helped with his resume (thanks AMA!) and cover letter, but ugh. It’s not looking good.

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      Yeah, a friend of ours worked for more than 20 years for a small-town water company and was fired over a dispute with his boss (a total jerkwad, BTW). Our friend doesn’t even have a high school degree, and of course no union.

      It worked out *semi* OK for him. He didn’t get his job back, but it turns out that despite what his jerk of a boss said, he recently found out that he did keep at least a reasonable portion of his pension. Until retirement, though, he’s working some fairly crappy jobs with only so-so pay and no benefits, and getting on his wife’s insurance was really expensive, but at least he’ll have some retirement security. Eventually. Good luck to your brother!

      1. Annon 4 now*

        Thanks! Yea, he doesn’t get to keep his pension until he hits 20 years? I think? So if he does get his old job back it’s only 8 years left, AND he’s only 31! He could potentially retire at 40. In the meantime we’re just focusing on local utility companies and seeing about jobs. It’s just stressful, he’s used to making 10k a month and now he’s having to count pennies/worry about getting a job without a degree. At least he graduated higschool!

    2. LCL*

      Sounds like he is looking for a utility laborer position. Other terms that may be used are civil construction, or civil laborer, vault construction, utility support work. Varies by locality. Most will require a working test, if he has been doing that work he should pass it. You don’t get those jobs in the public sector by resume and cover letter; you keep checking the company website, apply, and wait to be notified for a working test. One way to help is by visiting all of these companies websites, public and private will have a presence and information for applicants. Potelco is getting huge in all sectors of the business.

      1. LCL*

        …and in fact Potelco may be the reason a bunch of people are getting laid off at his job. Unfortunately that’s becoming the model, contracting it out and the former workers become contract employees working for the contractor. If he goes that route he should make sure his union will continue to fight for him.

        1. Annon 4 now*

          Yea, we’re sticking to utility companies. It’s just nerve wracking bc he doesn’t have a degree, he has experience, and everything is like “degree in —” when he’s DONE the work before and knows how to do it- but doesn’t have the degree.

  157. Sarah*

    I’m soooo curious about what happened with the company that had the dilemma re: the company gathered funds to help one coworker’s premature baby and the person who deposited the $$ passed away in a tragic accident. I haven’t seen an update and I think about them often.

    1. KT*

      That was truly heartbreaking. I would like an update on how they handled that situation as well.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, that was one of those sad situations where there was no joy forthcoming no matter what action was taken.

  158. AAM Lurker*

    Hi everyone –
    I’ve been hired as the HR person for a private company to do a major government construction project. I was brought on to help with recruitment, set up of payroll, benefits, etc. Construction for this project is dependent on the government approval later this summer. I would love your advice on how to deal with the situation below and what I should say to my boss:
    -Recruitment: I am supposed to start recruitment for this role and prepared job descriptions, company description, etc and began the recruitment process online. A few days into recruitment, the legal team informed me I need to take this down as they are very concerned because the project has not been officially approved. I asked my boss (who has no hr background) what this means for our recruitment going forward. She just told me I need to continue recruiting (with no online presence) and that I would not have any more budget (for things like LinkedIn Recruiter for example). I only posted on Indeed so far since it was free but was hoping we could get Linkedin recruiter seat for sourcing but looks like I can’t now. I’m not exactly sure how she wants me to recruit without any resources. Is this even possible?. Some of these positions they are looking for are very senior level, niche position and they want these employees to start in September so I would like to get a head start as soon as possible but I’m not allowed to post on any job boards or use any money, so I’m stuck with what to do now. I feel like I’m being set up to fail and I’m not exactly sure how to word this to my boss or what I’m supposed to do. Any advice?

    1. CAA*

      Are you in the U.S? Has this company ever done government contracting before?

      It’s completely normal to hire on contingency, but you have to be up front that these are contingent jobs and you have to understand how that works. Also, there are lots of details about fringe benefit costs, time tracking, and what you can and cannot bill to a government client that you, as the head of HR, need to know in order to work with your contracts and compliance team. This is a specialized type of HR, and it really sounds like they don’t know that and you don’t have the right background for this position. It also sounds like they don’t have the right legal team for a contractor. I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is going to end well.

      If you decide to stay and keep trying to recruit, and they won’t let you do it publicly, then you would only be able to do it via networking until the contract is approved. Get all the job descriptions sorted out and have everything ready to post the moment it is awarded. Also, if you do find people before the award is made, make sure that you add the contingency clause to the offer letters.

  159. hjelp*

    My company just went through a merger. I’m fairly disgusted by what I’ve seen of the management practices of the new company so far and I’ve decided that I’m not going to endure it for a moment longer than necessary.

    The problem: I live in an area without many good jobs and would likely have to take a significant pay cut. That’s not ideal, but it’s worth it in order to maintain my sense of well-being and professional integrity. Although things were MUCH better until a couple of months ago, I never actually enjoyed my work. I’ve been considering going back to school and working something low-stress part-time, instead of getting another job in the same field that will likely pay less and could end up with the same kinds of issues I’m looking to leave behind now.

    Is this crazy? My spouse is supportive of whatever I want to do, we’re homeowners in a relatively low cost area, we have enough savings to support this, and kids won’t ever be in the picture. To get the minimal qualifications to do anything else professionally would take a year, maybe two. To do what I’d really want to do would take longer, but it’s a notoriously difficult field to get into even for people who do everything right.

    Either way, I’m worried about being a mid-40s beginner competing with people half my age. Maybe I should just stick with what I’ve been doing and be thankful that I’m not stuck on the edge of homelessness anymore? That was my life for over a decade as a result of a series of bad decisions compounded by bad luck; I’ve more than recovered financially, but I’m afraid to take any risks.

    1. tiny temping teapot*

      Totally not crazy. You’ve thought about your big bills to be covered and you think you can do it.

      (Although, have you started saving for retirement? If you’re starting on a new path and also contributing to your retirement, it might make you feel more balanced.)

    2. fposte*

      In twenty years, what kind of life/lives do you think you’ll be happy to have led? If you go for the longer qualification and don’t pick up the kind of traction you hope for but get lower-level, lower-pay, lower-stress jobs in that field or out of it for twenty years, could that still be an okay life for you? Would you and your spouse be financially okay if not as rich as if you’d stayed in field A and would you be able to garner some security even if spouse gets eaten by a T. rex?

      I don’t think anybody’s created some kind of Maslow’s hierarchy of employment needs, but it seems to me that avoiding misery comes in just above avoiding homelessness. If you could leverage that nice wiggle room afforded by a LCOL and a supportive spouse to meet that “avoiding misery” need, that would seem a viable path to me, and it doesn’t seem particularly risky; if it goes well, then great, and if it goes only okay, then you’re fine.

  160. Winger*

    I have a META QUESTION®

    Does anyone engage with any websites that use Disqus or other types of comment functions? I have always thought Disqus was a good model because you can easily access your previous comments, you get alerted when people reply to you, its easier to see the threading, etc. Does anyone have an opinion about whether AAM would be improved by using a system like that? It’s tough for me to follow the discussions on this site and I don’t think receiving emails is the best way to do it. Generally I leave a comment and then I’m done. If I really want to follow the conversation, I have to remember to come back to this exact webpage, and ctrl+f my user name, etc. It seems a little silly. Am I missing something?

    1. Winger*

      I realize maybe this is a better topic for the weekend threat but it’s been 0n my mind!

    2. Jessesgirl72*

      This is probably more suited to tomorrow’s non-work open thread.

      How well Disqus works is directly related to how it’s implemented and customized for a particular website. Sometimes it’s fine, sometimes it is buggy.

      Regardless, the person who pays the bills gets to decide what works best for her own website. She wants us to be happy, but what you’re missing is that we have to trust her to make the right decisions for herself. It’s not as if Disqus is so obscure she’s never used or heard of it.

    3. fposte*

      I believe Alison has looked into Disqus before and decided against it; you could have a search through the archives to see anything she’s said about it. It might just be too darn pricey.

        2. Jessesgirl72*

          There’s no such thing as a free lunch, so that means data mining and probably very limited support (ie extra buggy!) unless you go paid. ;) That is just an educated guess though, and maybe Disqus would surprise me!

    4. Amber Rose*

      I’m sick of signing up for crap just to post a quick comment. I’m similarly sick of remembering thousands of passwords and having to sign in to everything. I would literally never comment here again.

      1. KR*

        This! Same. I have so many Things to say on some other websites but I refuse to sign up for Discus or create a Facebook just to link it. Nooo thank you.

    5. LCL*

      Hmm, to shorten this up, and put it in non technical terms, Disqus sucks. It’s really buggy. I just have this page bookmarked, it’s simple that way, to me.

    6. Emi.*

      I believe Alison has considered and rejected Disqus (along with other systems that require logins) because it makes it harder for people to talk about their work anonymously. Personally, I like it that way even when I’m not trying to be specially anonymous–Disqus is really slow and unwieldy, in my experience.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I actually used Disqus for about a week years ago, but promptly got rid of it. The problems:
      – When it goes down, all comments temporarily disappear.
      – Some workplaces block Disqus entirely.
      – I didn’t love the idea of them “owning” the comments (i.e., if they shut down one day, potentially all the comments here could disappear with them).
      – The privacy issues others have mentioned.
      – It’s buggy.

      I’d love to be able to buy a commenting system that does everything I want it to do, but I’ve looked and looked and none exists. This one isn’t perfect, but it’s the closest to the functionality I want. You’re right, though, that the biggest drawback is the lack of ways to be notified of responses to your comments.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      Yes, you’re missing the fact you can click on the time stamp and bookmark your own comments so you can check for replies easily. The links only work with collapse-all switched off.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Also, Disqus is so hideous that I generally don’t return to blogs that use it because of the level of frustration involved, and the time I have to invest, just to make a comment.

  161. The Principal of the Thing*

    Due to an organisational restructure, 14 jobs, including mine, have been made redundant, but 8 slightly different jobs will be created at a slightly higher pay grade, at least in my case. We’ve been asked to write an Expression of Interest based on four questions rather than a normal job application.

    Any advice on how to format this, or how long or short it should be? Any other ideas? I’d really appreciate it.

    1. Fabulous*

      Sounds like they just want a cover letter of sorts answering the specific questions. Depending on whether the questions require technical or more in-depth responses, I’d think a paragraph or two for each would be sufficient.

      1. The Principal of the Thing*

        That’s what I was thinking, thank you! I was speaking to one of the others at my level who is applying, and she said she was going for 2-3 pages and it just made me think of overlong resumes. But then I got to second-guessing myself…

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’d say include any information you think is relevant – don’t assume they can factor in things you don’t put in the letter.

  162. Lemon Zinger*

    The ED in my office has been out of the office for business trips for the past week. His assistant “Brittany” brought her 10-year-old son to work with her three days this week. He was incredibly disruptive (stomping, yelling, bothering employees, etc.) when she couldn’t keep him occupied with something mindless like watching Netflix on an iPad or stapling documents for her. Brittany would chastise him (“If you don’t stop, I’ll smack your head!”) but that did little to curb the issue.

    Since I work at a university, we work with sensitive student information. Am I wrong in thinking that it was inappropriate of Brittany to bring her son to work? I am guessing she did it because her boss was out– there’s no way he knows.

    Anything I should/can do? Her son isn’t here today, but the summer is long, and he’s out of school now…

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Regardless of whether you work with sensitive information or not, I think there have to be incredibly…incredible circumstances where it would be OK to bring your kid to work with you, and that kid has to be so easily occupied that you don’t really know he’s there. To bring them in for 3 days is out of the question. The fact that it happened while your ED was out of town makes me think that this wasn’t a situation where child care fell through at the last minute.

      1. WerkingIt*

        I don’t know if it needs to be that incredible… I’ve worked in many jobs where occasionally brining your kid in to to work is very much not a big deal at all. People have things that come up and child care complications. In the places where I’ve worked, people are pretty understanding about that. For all we know she’s just had something come up and her manager knows.

      2. fposte*

        I’m in academics, and kids float around the building with some frequency. It’s not a problem per se.

      3. Artemesia*

        It is pretty common in universities for staff and faculty to bring in a child occasionally when there are child care issues; these jobs don’t always pay well but they have perks like these — a level of informality you don’t find in many businesses. But disruptive. No way. And often. Also no way. I would not want to push some draconian policy to deal with one disruptive kid when 10 other kids are occasionally quietly reading a book in the corner of an office or helpfully collating materials or whatever. This kid doesn’t belong there; toddlers don’t belong there; this doesn’t mean no kid should ever be there.

    2. fposte*

      My guess is that Brittany’s son is nowhere near any sensitive student information, but I’d keep the FERPA notion in my back pocket just in case since it’s a nice impersonal thing that’s much easier than “Your kid is a pain in the butt.”

      Sometimes there’s a gap between school and summer activities, so one week doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be there all summer. It might also be easier to talk to her when the kid isn’t there: “Is Billy going to be coming in more over the summer? We should probably talk with ED about how to handle student data to ensure confidentiality if staff kids are going to be regularly in the office.”

      I’d also try to keep sympathy at the forefront in this discussion; she may have had few alternatives and may have thought it would go better than it did. Not that disruptive non-employees have to be tolerated in the office, just that she may be even more frustrated than you about the situation.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      “Brittany would chastise him (“If you don’t stop, I’ll smack your head!”) but that did little to curb the issue.”

      You don’t say.

      I wonder if he’s disruptive because his mother is horrible to him? Not being flippant. Have worked with at-risk kids. All behaviour is communication. He doesn’t sound like a happy kid, all told.

  163. technical Lady*

    I have an engineering degree and have been working for 20+ years in various engineering jobs. I am also very passionate and interested in writing and editing. I am now pursuing freelance editing, focusing on technical.

    For example, I’d look to edit specifications, product manuals, proposals, reports, essays, resumes/CL, manuscripts, syllabi, etc. I’m really open to any type of material! I feel that I have a really unique skillset in that I have a technical background but am also able to communicate effectively and understand others’ technical writing, which allows me to help them by editing.

    I am already a member of Editorial Freelance Association and have tried a few different “niche” sites that advertise for editing work. I also have tried contacting academic resource centers/writing centers at various universities to see if they have some type of advertising service where I can reach their students. However, I haven’t had much success. The people I have edited for are always pleased with my work and sometimes send 2 or 3 more jobs for me to edit, but I am really hoping to generate a larger client base.
    Does anyone have tips on how to better promote myself or where to find clients? Any ideas are much appreciated!

  164. Shellesbelles*

    How do you tactfully tell someone that their design choices are AWFUL? I work with an older lady who likes to dabble in design, even though that’s technically my job. Her choices are terrible and look like something circa 1992. She randomly takes over design projects from me all the time with disastrous results. She also decided to remake the entire website basically without any oversight. It looks so terrible (fuzzy logo, millions of different fonts, wrong brand colors, etc), but I can’t seem to convince my bosses to grow a spine and deal with the issue. I also am very worried that people will think that I created all of this terrible stuff. Is there anything I can do?

    1. WerkingIt*

      I worked with someone like this. Our director would often ask her to review my work and she would send it back with terrible and tacky edits. I found myself feeling very frustrated because I would have been humiliated if the work went out with my name on it. So I went to our director and simply said, “hey this is awkward, but I would rather she not edit my work because she isn’t a great writer and she adds a lot of loud formatting and tacky clip art…” Turns out my director agreed but for some bizarre reason was just going along with her because she was a people pleaser and my co-worker was very pushy.

    2. Stella's Mom*

      Can you ask for some clear job description and duties to be outlined? If this is your job, why is she doing it and also why is she not doing her own work?

    3. Bluebell*

      Do you have any sort of branding manual? When I arrived at my job several years ago a lot of design was handled by a staffer who was a clip art devotee. We managed to take a lot away from her and actually had designers make templates for us. And they did a branding manual that tightened up font and color use. It helped a lot.

    4. cornflower blue*

      Is anything about your company legally protected (trademarks, copyrights)? If so, you can argue that her changes are diluting the brand and could put the company in danger of losing its protection.

    5. Shellesbelles*

      We have a rather vague brand manual that I’ve tried to shore up, but with no luck. It’s not seen as a priority. We’re supposed to be the “young, cool” version of what we do, so this is why it’s so concerning to me. Her design is diluting the brand, but every time I point that out, it’s met with a noncommittal shrug. We’re both self-taught, but I have a much better eye, a better sense of what I can accomplish, and more direct experience.

      She’s very aggressive in her approach to things. I’ll often come in on Monday to find that she’s redone all of the graphics on the website without prior approval from anyone or completely changed things out on social media. They are hideous, but, as they are public facing, I’m often stuck with them for “consistency.” My boss will complain vaguely about these images to me, but then refuses to deal with her. Then I’m supposed to “make them better,” which is often impossible, as they are sourced from clip-art and I’m not an illustrator.

      As for her role, she’s my “manager” technically, but only sometimes. Really, she’s a grant writer who was given a piece of the marketing in order to make her happy and, because she’s older, she was given a more senior position. She brings in money and is connected, so they humour her. Her title is vague, so it’s very unclear what she does. She just kind of jumps in whenever there is something fun to do related to marketing, but otherwise buries her head in grants. It’s a bit of a disaster, especially as contractors tend to find her slow to respond, prefer to work with me, and have told everyone as much.

      Really, I’m just kind of stuck. The design work is the only part of this job that I even remotely like. I feel like it’s being stolen away from me and mutilated.

      1. Artemesia*

        Your boss is a terrible manager and is not going to change. Passive twits who allow this sort of thing because they don’t want to ‘confront’ are the worst. Since she does something valuable it would be easy for her manager to insist she use her time on that and that he wants you to manage the website and ‘one person needs to do it, for brand management and consistency’ and simply direct her not to do it. But he won’t because he is a terrible manager. Time to scan the environment for a new position.

  165. Confused Temp*

    Hi Everyone,

    Just asking what everyone thinks about this situation.

    For the last 6-7 months I have been working as a part-time temp contractor with an organization when they were short-staffed and did not have a manager (who they wanted to hire first). Now that they have a manager, it appears that they want to fill the role I have been filling full time.

    The issue is that they didn’t tell me. Someone forwarded me the job posting. I know that I am on the expensive side for them compared to what they have paid in the past, but I’m worth is because I have some excellent and somewhat niche experience. In fact, I do work like this for a few organizations. But it still seems odd that they wouldn’t mention it to me. In the past, when I was a full time employee and we had a temp in a role we decided to hire for, he had a discussion with that person and encouraged them to apply.

    I guess I’m wondering if I should even apply to this job. Seems that if they were interested at all in hiring me, they would have mentioned it. So I don’t even quite know how to bring it up.

    Thanks!

    1. Friday*

      Did you get the job through a temp agency? If so, they probably have a contract with the agency against hiring you without continuing to pay them a fee, or have a hefty buy-out fee for you.. and that’s not in your current company’s budget. Ask your boss what the situation is.

      2. tiny temping teapot*

        I would definitely clarify with your boss, but your first instincts might be right. They might want to be pay entry level salary for the position and you don’t qualify, they might be thinking about taking the position in a different direction.

        I do think it might have been easier/better for morale for the office to explain these things to you and be upfront.

    2. Fabulous*

      Talk to your manager about it. It’s possibly HR posted the job without letting them know.

      At least that’s what they told me happened when I found out my job was posted (and in the end-stages of hiring) a couple years back after I’d worked temp for them for over 1 year. Good luck!

  166. whichsister*

    I am not a huge fan of Liz Ryan. But I found this article interesting as if I had asked some of these questions in the interview for my current position, I may not be in this toxic environment . How do you think asking some of these in an interview would go over?

    https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2017/06/20/five-sticky-questions-you-need-to-ask-before-you-take-the-job/&refURL=&referrer=#759123431f1f

    For example , reachability after hours. working hours on job, preferred method of communication ( Case in point on honesty, I was told in interview I needed some flexibility in my schedule to be available since we are in food service and locations are open nights and weekends. What I was not told was my expected schedule was to be in the office till 9:00 p.m. three nights a week after my first 90 days. )

    1. fposte*

      I’ll be curious to hear other responses. These seem pretty reasonable to me, though I might phrase them a little differently (and you’d need to be at a relevant level to ask #3). I probably would use “the person in this position” rather than “me”–not only is it less presumptuous, it gives a little space so it sounds less like “You’re not going to ask me to work late, are you?” I’d also probably phrase the question about expectations as about office practice first and then slide into expectations, because that gives you a couple of bites at the same cherry–if they say “Everybody works late but we don’t expect you to ever” I would be pretty wary.

      You’re never going to be completely proof against a company that believes they’re stripes and are actually polka dots, but these are some pretty good questions to explore the pattern.

    2. Cap Hiller*

      Yes – it was so empowering to me once I figured out what my true non-negotiables were and then to ask about them in first-round interviews with a potential manager. For me, I can’t have a culture that formally or informally that rewards you for sitting at your desk until late at night. If my bosses don’t actually need me for something, I want to go home once our office officially closes, try to make it for dinner and put my kid to bed, and then get more work done that needs to get done.

  167. alice*

    I used to be an active commenter on this site, but it has been a while :)

    I need help navigating getting an old job back. I used to work for a company as an employee for exactly three years, then went freelance so I could work remotely. The job was full time then went to ten hours a week when I went freelance, but I was doing similar work. My initial contract was six months, and my unexpectedly told me he would not be renewing it back in January. A couple of weeks later, he emailed me asking if I wanted to renew the contract; I said yes, and he said he would forward the contract to me. Well it’s been six months, and although the job is only ten hours a week, I’m at a point where I really need that income. I emailed him once every three weeks or so until April, and he would always promptly reply that the contract was in the works.

    Is there any point in emailing now to see if “the contract is ready”? It was a small company, about five of us total. Or should I let this go completely? I’m conflicted because he consistently told me he would bring me back on.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it would hurt to email, but I would consider it a speculative query rather than a reminder of a done deal; in other words, plan another way to get that income, and be pleasantly surprised if something shakes loose there.

  168. AliceBD*

    I just accepted a new job offer today! Thank you Alison for all of your fantastic advice and the commenters for all of your support. It’s a 19% pay raise and I’m moving to the city I want to be in.

  169. Avocado Toast*

    I volunteer in a field that’s related to my 9-5 job. It’s a much more personal/less formal environment than my job but occasionally the two worlds overlap. Recently someone I’ve volunteered with came to my office for a meeting with my coworker (unrelated to either my job or our shared volunteer experience). I happened to be near the front desk when he came in and he greeted me with a hug which is pretty typical for our interactions.

    Now, weeks later, I’m wondering if this was inappropriate for a work setting! He’s about 40 years older than me, so there’s little chance anyone interpreted it as a romantic interaction/relationship. And no one said anything about it to me. Our office isn’t incredibly formal but my coworkers aren’t really “huggy” people either.

    If it happens again….hug/no hug?

    1. fposte*

      It sounds perfectly fine to me. I think even if you were in a strict “never hug co-workers” office that wouldn’t automatically be the rule for people you have other connections to. Did you pick up on any office response, or are you just wondering out of the blue? If the latter, I’d say don’t worry about it and either way is fine.

  170. Soon-to-be One-Woman-Show*

    I’m half of a two-person customer support team (think fancy tech support), and I just found out that my coworker who makes up the other half of the team is leaving. I’m happy for her because it’s a great opportunity, and my company has already posted her job to hire a replacement, but I’m nervous about my workload literally doubling, even if it is only temporary. Does anyone have experience with this? How can I handle two people’s jobs and stay cheerful while we look for a new employee? I love this company and don’t want to risk burning out. Thanks!

    1. Artemesia*

      Talk to your boss about priorities until the new person is on board. Make it clear that you want to help the transition and thus need to know which things she wants you to get done since of course you can’t get two jobs done. Make it clear from the start that doing it all is not possible but in the context, of what do I prioritize.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        All of this.

        Do not try to do both jobs! Not only will this be stressful but your employer might take this to mean you don’t, in fact, need two people.

  171. i2c2*

    Someone last week commented that using the wrong form of alum/alumni/alumnae was their workplace pet peeve.

    I can’t remember who it was, but I just got a message saying “if you are an alumni, click here” and thought of that comment!

  172. anonycat*

    I’m in HR, so I should know the answer. I’ve been at my current job for only 9 months. My boss is a toxic bully who throws her weight around. THe company doesn’t care about employee engagement or communicating with the employees at all. Most days I dread coming to work. Until recently. Only because my boss was given an ultimatum to shape up or ship out. About a month ago a colleague at another employer announced retirement. A recruiter cold called me and I’ve been interviewing ever since for that job. TOday I got an offer. but it’s only 5K more a year, as a HR manager supervising 2 employees. My current job is less than 5 minutes from home, the other is about 15. The benefits there are better: PTO same, 401k is 3% instead of 1. Air quality here is horrible (manufacturing both places, chemicals used here). What is my hold up? I’ve only been here NINE months, and it’s only 5K (still negotiating but no guarantee there). I don’t do the job switching thing! Talk some sense into me people. Perspective!

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      Toxic job is toxic. I doubt boss is going to shape up permanently.

      Are you making what you should be making for the position in the area, even if it’s only $5k more? I mean, it’s only been 9 months, so $5k more seems reasonable to me.

      As long as your next job isn’t under a year, go and be happy and escape toxic job!

      1. anonycat*

        My boss is fakey nice, so I know it won’t be permanent. Yes, the salary is fair, a little low considering this is a higher level (manager, which I’m not right now but I have for less money). I do have flexibility with hours here, supposedly. However I’m working 60+ a week and it was supposed to be 40 -45 at the very most. I’m I’m waiting for the recruiter to reply with what the GM there asks for hours worked.

        1. Annon 4 now*

          Doooooo it! It sounds like you’re miserable at current job and while new job isn’t a great pay raise, you could be working fewer hours which means you’d be making more per hour than you currently are! Regardless of the pay increase! If you’re making 500$/ week in a 60+ hr week that’s 8.33/hr. If you’re making 510$/week in a 40 hr week that’s 12.75/hr. This is a great thing!

    2. Artemesia*

      Toxic boss is never going to really change. 15 minutes is nothing. 5K is something. Off you go unless your reluctance is masking some spidey sense about the new place.

    4. neverjaunty*

      What’s holding you up is that you’ve been in a toxic situation. That warps your ability to trust yourself and to make thoughtful decisions.

      Recognize that nothing is keeping you from the new job other than the damage you’ve suffered from this horrible job. Once you leave, you’ll heal.

    5. Aphrodite*

      It’s not just 5K more. It’s 5K more AND the promotion! Sure, the pay may not be exactly what you think it should but the new job gets you out of a toxic environment and gives you more money and gives you the opportunity to greatly expand your future income and your future career. GRAB IT NOW!

      1. anonycat*

        I’m not sure if any of you come back to see these, but thank you for all the input. The recruiter is waiting for a final signature? and the job will be mine. I’m sure it will be Wednesday before it’s through due to the holiday. I’m only giving a 2 week notice, which I’m not doing until I see the official offer in writing.

  173. Hoorah*

    I interviewed with a strong candidate. There is one red flag though.

    He said he left his last job because he needed 7 weeks off to get married back in his home country. Because his boss couldn’t find a replacement, he wasn’t allowed the time off so he resigned.

    We have 4 weeks of paid annual leave here so asking for 7 weeks off to get married is not outrageous at all.  It makes no sense to let a good employee leave permanently for this reason. The cost of losing good staff, recruitment efforts etc will be far worse than the inconvenience of a 7 week absence. It makes me wonder if he was just a bad performer, or he had some other conflict with staff etc, that the boss decided to decline his holiday application and make him resign.

    I tried calling the boss for a reference check but he is away overseas and not contactable for several weeks. It’s a small business so am not sure who else would be in a position to give honest feedback about this applicant.

    How much of a red flag should this be?

    1. DCGirl*

      I don’t know. The archives here are full of tales of bosses who are completely unreasonable. Maybe this person had the misfortune to be reporting to yet another one.

    2. fposte*

      What field are you talking about? There are plenty of them that wouldn’t give people seven weeks off over an entire year, let alone in one go, so his account seems totally plausible to me. How long was he at that job, and did he work anywhere you could contact before that?

      Alison has a recent column about how your thinking can be warped by a toxic job–yours may be warped by a reasonable one :-).

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      Yeah, considering my husband’s VP is trying to seriously talk him out of going to the Ukraine to bring back *our child* this doesn’t even blip on my radar.

      He had to jump through all kinds of hoops to take 4 weeks (he only got 2 paid) for our wedding out of state.

    4. Overeducated*

      I wouldn’t consider it a red flag in the US on its own. There are plenty of employers that give 2-3 weeks annual leave and wouldn’t consider a 7 week absence for any non- emergency, non-medical reason.

    5. cornflower blue*

      I have a job I enjoy at a reasonable company, and we don’t get 4 weeks PTO until after 20 years of employment. Your company is very generous, and I would believe your candidate’s story until proven otherwise.

  174. Normally A Lurker*

    I just had the most frustrating conversation with a group of friends about resumes.

    Some facts, I”m almost 40, and have done various kinds of contract work my whole life. My full resume is 8 pages – but no, I have never sent that out.

    In fact, I always chop my resume down to two pages for whatever I”m applying to (I work in several industries), making it specific for what industry I’m applying to. (To be clear, resume is two pages, and all chronological work experience. The second page of my resume is whatever the oldest contract job was that is relevant (never more than 7 years old), my “skills” section and my education. )

    I just got a HUGE lecture from several of my friends (in other industries) telling me two pages is too long and I need to shave it down to one. And that hiring managers don’t read the second page anyway.

    It is close to impossible for me to shave it down to one page. And even if I did, I would then have HUGE gaps in my timeline because of cutting things.

    I know Allison says two page resumes are fine for people with varied work history. . And I have never not gotten an interview with a two page resume – as in I always get called in.

    So… should I just let this convo go, or is there some truth to it?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Let it go. You don’t have to convince your friends, only hiring managers.

    2. Jessesgirl72*

      You are both right. Or they are right under normal circumstances, that one page is better, and two pages for someone in their 20’s is ridiculous.

      There is an exception to every rule, this one applies especially for contractors, and you’re not 24.

      You’re not going to convince them of this, so ignore them.

    3. Undine*

      If it works, you are right. I have a two-page resume as well. Two lines for every contract I’ve had. I think if your experience is varied and you’ve been working a long time, it can easily go over 1 page.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Your friends sound like they are stuck. Point out that you are getting called for interviews and shrug as if to say, “I’m okay here.”

  175. Siobhan Johnson*

    I just did an interview for a receptionist position with a well known non-profit. I was essentially told at the end of the interview, because I am seeking my master’s degree, that I am over qualified for the position. I don’t expect a callback. I have removed my master’s degree studies from my resume. I will also be asking the crucial last interview question, “do you have any hesitation about my skills or background? That question prompted the above response from the interviewers. I am just disappointed (I’ve been job searching for several months) and was really interested in this job. Does anyone have any advice for me when looking for a receptionist or administrative assisting position in the nonprofit sector? I can’t seem to find a job in my field.

  176. louise*

    Hey everyone – I commented a while back about sexism in the workplace. See original comment here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/open-thread-september-16-17-2016.html#comment-1207214

    tl;dr I’m a female engineer in my late 20s and I battled with my first company over sexism until it got to be too much for me. Also, I am diagnosed with anxiety (for which I take medicine and see a therapist) and after I needed to leave work for doctors’ appointments a couple of times, the HR director suggested I file for FMLA “to protect me.” My therapist said it was pretty standard and submitted the paperwork. The company brought in their lawyer, who interrogated me for an hour and a half about every statement my therapist had written, every therapist I’d ever seen, every medication I’d been on, how I functioned in school, etc in front of the HR lady and her boss, who is somehow head of accounting. I finally told them “F— this” and walked out, furious and feeling extremely violated. This happened after I posted the first comment.

    OK, so. Shortly after that I was recruited for another position at a global company, and I jumped at it. It wasn’t perfect, but I needed, badly, to get out of the first position. It was a contract position (Mistake #1) but I was hoping since it was a much larger company, I’d get the opportunity to do interesting work and be backed up by a robust HR department. I had a number of setbacks almost immediately at the new job, including a death in the family which I missed due to travel for that job, and a month-long bout of strep throat that had me missing days and days of work, and even though I was able to telecommute, I had not really learned enough to work from home yet. Because I was a contract employee, no time was invested into training me, and instead of doing engineering I was doing CAD work on a program I had never used before. After a couple of months, my supervisors called a meeting with me and asked why I was so unhappy (I had never mentioned unhappiness to either of them, but I can only assume I should have been smiling there too?). I mentioned I felt frustrated about the lack of training and how I’d like to do more engineering, and was met with unsatisfying answers about how “that’s not really how it’s done here.”

    Maybe a month later, I messed up some CAD work, and when I realized I told the person I’d been working for, but to no avail, they ended my contract on the spot. I’ve been looking for a job since then (February) and I’m at a standstill. I’ve revamped my cover letter per Alison’s suggestions. I’ve had my boyfriend’s dad, who is a hiring manager, help my resume. I’ve gotten a few interviews, but I don’t get offers. I practice for interviews and on paper everything feels like it should be working out, but it’s not.

    I’m honestly lost as to what to do. I am trying to find the “right” job, of course, but I have to wonder if my past jobs are a black mark on me and I’m getting really bad references. I’ve done everything right, except be a woman who wants to be an engineer, it seems. I’ve worked with recruiters, and having not one but two bad job experiences seems to put them on high alert. What on earth do I do? I made the mistake of taking a crappy job to get out of a really crappy job, but I’m only 3 years into my career and having problems even getting college grad jobs to call me back. It seems like another black mark is that I did another degree before my engineering degree, so I think I must be coming off as flighty and indecisive.

    Ugh, am I crazy? Have I done something wrong? Have I just had a string of bad decisions that are affecting me negatively now? Is it sexism? Really, what do I do here? Thanks everyone!

    1. fposte*

      Wow, louise, I’m sorry; that is a really disheartening stretch of experience, and I remember your terrible job last fall. I don’t think it’s likely to be bad references, since it’s pretty common to get interviewed but not offered a job, but you could certainly have a friend or a service call your references to find out what’s being said about you just in case. And you can always take your pre-engineering degree off your resume if you think it’s hurting you.

      I think you may be a bit of a question mark to employers right now–they’re not on high alert or else they wouldn’t call you in for an interview, but you’re not presenting a compelling enough package to balance out that question mark and beat out other people for the job (and it really is pretty common for employers to prefer college grads for college-grad jobs, so it’s not because you’re particularly scary). I don’t know your field at all, but in most fields the thing I’d advise is networking–network the hell out of every female engineer group within half the country, network your alumni network, network friends and neighbors. Also politely stalk the resumes of people who *are* getting the jobs to see if there are any credentials that you’ve been underselling.

      But ultimately it’s just hard because it’s hard, and it’s really unfair that you went through what you did at that first job and that it’s still making things hard; I’m sorry.

  177. Liane*

    I got an offer for a job! It’s temporary–one of the store closings that’s been in the news. But I can continue to search for permanent jobs while employed. Position will last a couple of months, which means that, worst case, I can go back to last fall’s seasonal job.
    Not ideal but sure better than unemployment.

  178. Captain Lavender*

    So, I decided to be brave and accept an offer for a temporary job – even though I”m permanent currently. This position is with the Federal Government so the pros seemed to really outweigh the cons. Offer is of course, subject to a security check. I have no worries about that – I have excellent credit and no criminal convictions. Do I wait until that comes through before I give notice? The problem is that this is a long weekend in Canada, so nothing will happen before Tuesday. If I give notice on Tuesday I’m giving my office almost 3 full weeks, which I would prefer especially since my leaving will come as a surprise. Is being as helpful as I can be and not burning bridges worth the (probably teeny tiny) risk?

    1. Undine*

      No. Never take that risk. If you don’t get the job, you won’t have anything, and that is too big a risk to be nice to your work about. You might be able to negotiate your start date.

    2. DaisyGrrl*

      Don’t do it. If it’s for a position as an employee of the core public administration (as opposed to a Crown Corporation or some other type of separate employer – I don’t have experience there), make sure you have a signed offer letter with a start date before you give notice.

      I work for the federal government and have seen many situations where an offer takes months longer than expected to materialize. Aside from the security clearance (which isn’t just about you…I know someone whose clearance took nearly a year because her husband is Ukranian), there are various approvals that need to happen before the formal offer is made. It’s summertime, so everything is slower than usual.

      Congrats on the offer, but seriously, don’t make a move until you have signed the offer letter.

  179. WhatTheFoxSays*

    What a roller coaster this first half of the year has been for me! How has it been for you?

    I’ve been promoted and thrown into the deep end of making more impactful decisions more independently. Some I’ve nailed and some I’ve gotten feedback that I should have called differently. I’ve missed project deadlines as I’m learning to adapt, reassess and pivot quickly when big projects start to go off the rails and learning how to better delegate versus thinking I’ve got to look into how to solve all the problems myself. Despite the challenges I like the meatier projects and it’s pure satisfaction to finally see them reaching the finish line. We’re going into a quarter close which will bring a fresh breath of the usual routine back into my life for a couple of weeks and then there’s a bunch of projects coming my way again. Hoping to go into the second half stronger and smarter for the lessons of the first. Also feeling grateful for the support from a couple of strong female mentors.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’ve had a pretty calm start to the year as I’ve stayed in one job after years of freelance and contract work.

      How do you manage your projects and do you have scope to rearrange deadlines before you miss them?

  180. Me*

    Every single job is accounting-related or the pay is so low I can’t make ends meet. I’m right back where I started in 2012. I got a rejection from the job I did the clerical testing for and I haven’t heard from that marketing company that called me back about the proofreading job they changed from part-time to full-time. :(

    Applied for a proofreader job in L.A. It’s definitely an entry-level job. Can’t find a cheap apartment near it. Well, if I got it (hahaha), and the pay is decent (bahahahahaahah!) maybe one would open up by the time I could move (WHOOHOOHOOHOOHOOHAHAHAH!).

    I don’t know what I was thinking. They’re not going to contact me. It’s like my brain is the Joker. :P

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I am so sorry that things are continuing to be so tough in your job hunt. It’s not fair. It’s really not. Rooting for you.

    2. Zathras*

      I’m sorry it’s so hard, that really sucks. Hang in there! lots of Internet people are rooting for you.

    3. Amadeo*

      I am sorry. This is one of the most discouraging things in the world sometimes. I’m guessing you wouldn’t be happy with St Louis or Columbia as a location? Although given the way it is when it’s time to job search sometimes I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just has hard to find things in those places.

      Whatever you do, don’t come to Illinois! We’re about to implode (and I’m glad I’m working at a MO university now).

      1. Me*

        Columbia is out completely. Too small and too hard to get to. I want to go to a bigger city, not a smaller one. In fact, I want to leave the state entirely. I can’t stand it here anymore. The weather sucks, the government sucks, and I’m sick of all the evangelical CRAP.

        I was looking in St. Louis, but the cost of living is higher there and it’s not really worth spending my only money to move for a dead-end clerical job that doesn’t pay much more than the ones here. There are few to no writing/editing jobs I am qualified for in the area. Not being in St Louis would probably not be an issue like it is for employers in CA, because I’m only three hours away.

        I keep looking but haven’t found one. The only company that replied to me was the one where the actual job was in Springfield IL. I had three different people warn me off moving there! It’s even smaller than here, so no. I don’t want to go to Kansas City. In fact, all three cities–StL, KC, and here–made it to an MSN list of the worst places in the country to live. :(

  181. Liane*

    “While your skills are certainly impressive, we have decided to pursue other candidates for this position.”
    I was both annoyed & amused to read this in a (form) rejection email. Yes, I am glad this employer doesn’t leave candidates hanging. But–I didn’t make it to a phone screen/interview. Either the template creator believes, “Everyone gets a trophy!” or, like Vizzini, keeps using a word without knowing what it means.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Yeah, I know it’s just a form, but that kind of thing can sting. I think my least favorite boilerplate rejection was along the lines of “with qualifications like yours, we’re sure you’ll find a position soon.” BLECH.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, there’s really no need to go over-the-top with flattery on people you’ve rejected. It’s really just pouring salt in the wounds.

        1. soupmonger*

          It’s hard to find good wording for rejecting candidates. I speak from experience; knowing you are going to disappoint someone is hard, so you try to let them down gently.

          1. Artemesia*

            And the truth is there are always many more qualified candidates for a position than you can interview. The line about being well qualified thus is accurate for many of those rejection letters.

    2. Frustrated Optimist*

      IMO, there’s no wording that feels good. But as you note, it’s good that they didn’t leave you hanging. That’s almost becoming a rarity, especially in the early stages of the screening process.

      I’ve had companies that I’ve interviewed with extensively (multiple rounds with multiple interviewers) “ghost” me for months before finally sending an automated rejection notice. And a couple times I had to beg for an update (knowing all too well it would be a rejection notice), just to get closure.

      It’s sickening how candidates are treated these days. =(

  182. Lumen*

    A brief vent:

    I offered my help to a coworker on Tuesday when a messy deal came through, and she turned me down. Which was cool!

    Then just now, at 3:45 on a Friday (knowing that most of us leave early on Fridays if we’ve met our hours for the week), she tries to dump it in my lap. Ironically, if she’d asked me earlier today I would have been able (and willing) to help, but I have an appointment I have to leave for.

    Obviously I told her I wouldn’t be able to help today, but so irritated with my local Work Martyr. A failure to plan on her part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

    *SMH*

  183. the horror, the horror!*

    I think I ran into a perfectly good example of why one should evaluate one’s interviewer before taking a job.

    I was sitting in a cafe listening to what sounded like a job interview in a public setting. The interviewer came off as a really breezy jerk. I head him outright say, “I look at credit ratings, because if you can’t manage your life, I don’t want you working here!” He also seemed to have an obsession for pseudoscientific personality profiles: he mentioned that his own profile was that of an “entrepreneur,” and commended the guy he was talking to about having “the right profile,” but I have the feeling he was leaning on psychobabble the way he leaned on credit scores as a dumb metric without thinking of all the terrible accidents in one’s life that could make one’s credit score drop, that have nothing to do with “managing your life.”

    It might not be good form to disclose what I’ve eavesdropped, but I figured, for the more inexperienced of Allison’s readers, that this might be a good demonstration of why one should interview one’s interviewer, in a sense, as much as the interviewer is interviewing you. Because there were red flags a-plenty.

    1. Rebecca*

      I’m convinced that for every credit rating that tanks because someone is irresponsible or a Spendy McSpendypants, there is an equally bad credit rating because someone had life happen to them. Like, they hurt themselves somehow, had surgery, there were complications so they couldn’t go back to work in the allotted time frame, company was able to terminate after 12 weeks, so then no job, no insurance, medical bills piling up, losing their home…all of those things can happen so easily. Having a low credit score does not make you a bad person or a bad employee. How very sad.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Yeah, this hit home for me. I got turned down for a professional scholarship I’d actually got the year before – this was the next level of study/funding – and one of the comments at interview was that they saw me as a risk because I had debts.

        This was a funding scheme for people on low incomes.

        And I have debts because I have been homeless twice (the first time at 17-18) and subsequently left an abusive partner who ruined me financially. I was surviving on a tiny income while volunteering part-time, attending 100% of my course and getting distinctions for everything.

        The person who said this earned more per hour than I earned in a day.

        I complained – not about the outcome but the process – saying this was information about my experiences, not my character. They a) sent out an anonymous survey to everyone who was interviewed and b) sent me an apology, which I was tempted to frame.

          1. the horror, the horror!*

            Good for you! Congrats! I hope life is working better otherwise for you as well.

          2. Rebecca*

            I’m glad things are better for you now! And wow about the apology! Yes, you should frame it.

            1. Ramona Flowers*

              Thank you! Yeah, I wrote to the director of training saying if it was me I would want to know. I got a very kind, human and not-at-all-perfunctory response and the survey they sent out was actually my idea as well.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      If the interviewer got up and left before the candidate, I would be soooo tempted to sidle over to him and whisper, “Guy’s a jerk. Run like the wind!”

  184. ThatGirl*

    I don’t know if too many people will even see this but… After two rounds of interviews I got an email asking for my references today! In my experience this means an offer is coming soon, but I’ve had some weird experiences with this job search so I don’t want to jinx it…. Ahh but I’m excited :) I have to wait until at least Wednesday though, boo!

  185. atexit8*

    I started a new job this week.
    I am in a cubicle as are 20 others in this department.
    The manager and the asst. manager have their own offices.
    I was told on my first day at work that when we leave for the day, we are required to go to the manager and to the asst. manager and bid them goodnight.

    Has anyone encountered anything this weird before?
    I preface this question by saying that I have worked for multiple Fortune 100 companies and start-ups.
    Never once have I have required to basically tell my manager I was leaving for the day.

    We are required to clock in/clock out with our hand prints at this new job.

    1. Anonymeow*

      Wow, I’m surprised to find someone else who has to do this and finds it extremely offputting! Also I’m sorry :( The handprints thing sounds very creepy.

      When I first started my job, I was required to walk to my manager’s office to say good morning at the start of the day and good bye at the end of the day, under the guise of “fostering communication between the team”. His office and my office are on two different parts of the building, so I had to make the hike over every single day for months.

      It’s not something I would have minded, since I like talking to people anyway (though it is kind of weird to explicitly request it), EXCEPT… he turned out to be an awful micromanager and kind of a horrible person. One day, he blew up on me for about half an hour for not saying “hello” in a friendly enough tone of voice in the morning (and of course I’m femme-presenting), so I just stopped checking in after that.

      I hope your managers turn out to be generally reasonable people.

      1. atexit8*

        Ten years ago when I was unemployed I worked at Michaels for 3 months, they had the traditional paper clock in/clock. This is the second company that I have worked at that does the whole handprint as verification for clock in/clock out. It is to prevent fraud.

        In my former career, I was salaried so I never had to clock in-clock out.

    2. Observer*

      The thing is that a lot of systems that use finger prints don’t always work that well – our fingerprint reader is so bad with my finger, that I use my phone app instead. Which is nuts because the app is pretty bad too.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      What the? I’m just picturing how long it will take for them when all 20 people do this.

      1. atexit8*

        It doesn’t take too long as not everybody leaves at the same time.
        But is is *very* offputting as Anonymeow writes.

    4. Her Grace*

      I work in a well-functioning office and we do this.

      Since we all come in at different times, and we work with time-sensitive tasks, letting our manager know when we’re in and out of the office allows her to delegate in the most efficient manner.

      Nothing puts egg on our faces to our clients more than her emailing a task notification to someone who has already left for the day (and she didn’t know they were gone).

    5. Willow Sunstar*

      I say see you tomorrow, but only because I sit next to my boss. I think it’s weird to require it.

  186. Shayland*

    Follow up from the thread early in the week about cam work.

    I want to go into creating adult comics aimed toward and representing queer people, sexual assault survivors, disabled people, and non-binary people. I’m wondering how separate I should keep this work from the rest of my work life.

    I am twenty and throughout high school and a little bit into college I have done work with 13-18 year olds around bullying, discrimination, feminism, and so on. I don’t know if this is work that I want to continue as I age.

    How does creating adult comics compare with other types of sex work in terms of it’s taboo-ness. And if I follow through on this should I give up on doing the type of public speaking I have done in the past?

    1. neverjaunty*

      It’s a lot less taboo than other kinds of sex work. You’re perceived as an artist, not as the product, ugly as that is.

    2. Graciosa*

      It’s a lot easier to do this type of work under a pseudonym than the cam work that was discussed earlier (less opportunity for recognition if what you share is the adult comic). I would do it if you want to (assuming it’s legal) but keep it very separate from your “regular” public life. If your life changes, you can always stop. I don’t see any reason to give up public speaking.

      Do get legal advice about exactly what you can and can’t do with your adult comics – I’m very serious about that. For example, I remember reading about case law that allowed the state to prohibit (artist-created, non-photographic) images of children being sexually assaulted on the grounds that this could encourage that abuse even though no children were involved in the creation of the images. I don’t know if this is still true anywhere or what the parameters are around the rules (can a comic show the assault to set up to show the survivor dealing with it?) but you *really* need to know what you can and can’t do before you publish anything. Once it’s out of your hands, you don’t control where it ends up.

      But if you get the right advice, keep it legal, and use a pseudonym, you should be able to pursue this while continuing with your public speaking and other aspects of your regular life.

  187. Help*

    A friend of mine with dyslexia is looking to start a career. Anyone have any advice or potential career paths that might be better suited for someone with reading/writting issues? What sorts of tools do people use on site to help minimize typos? How should a person approach it with their company- should she be up front with it or wait until hired?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I know a lot of actors, comedians, public speakers, and CEOs are dyslexic. Frankly, even a writing-oriented career can be good for someone with dyslexia… there are just extra challenges involved. I wouldn’t really mention it in a job interview, unless you require some kind of special accommodations.

      1. More info please*

        And if someone needed special accommodations…how would the applicant go about discussing it? (The concern being the company might be overwhelmed).

    2. Snarl Furillo*

      Here’s a list of possible accommodations for people with learning disabilities related to reading: http://soar.askjan.org/Limitation/74

      I have mixed feelings about disclosing my disability, but I generally come down on the side of disclosing during the later interview stages or just after starting. It’s soooo tempting to think you can hide it or that you don’t want to risk losing the offer, but the bottom line is that you don’t want to work for a place that can’t accommodate you, so it’s better to weed them out early.

      The general framework I use is basically “I have a disability that affects general area Y. You might notice [broad trait] or that I use [compensatory strategy]. In the past, doing A and B reasonable accommodation has helped. Would we be able to do something like that?” I strive to have something to suggest, even if I know it isn’t the exact accommodation I’m going to end up using.

  188. Tutor ?*

    Earlier this week when people were suggesting side gigs for an OP one of the ideas was online tutoring.

    Wanting to know more, but not wanting to thread jack, I decided to just Google it. My Google skills failed me. The two big tutoring websites I found wanted me to register with them before providing any details. Some of the other sites were for private tutoring and others were for….well ‘private tutoring’.

    Can anyone suggest a good website or two about being an online tutor? I would like to know the basic requirements, starting pay, and expectations prior to providing my information to a company.

    Thank you.

    1. Student*

      You might look at your local community college or high school for real tutoring options instead.

      Honestly, on-line tutoring sounds to me like either a scam cover to phish for credit cards/personal info, or a polite phrase for paid online homework completion. There’s an inherent level of dishonesty that makes for a bad working environment. If you’re looking for any job whatsoever, it’s not going to help long-term to take a job like that instead of continuing to look for something more on-the-level. If they con customers, it’s only a matter of time before they con you.

    2. Ann*

      My husband tutored through wyzant for a while. They do take a big cut nut he was happy bc he did not have to find clients and eventually word of mouth meant he no longer needed to work through a company.

      1. CAA*

        My daughter also tutored through wyzant during high school and college. This is actually in-person tutoring, they just connect tutors and students through their website and provide a payment platform. The tutor and student arrange the time and place to meet up — my DD used the public library. I think the hourly rate varies by subject and age, but it was quite a bit more than minimum wage.

    3. Aisling*

      I briefly worked as a writing tutor for Tutor.com. It wasn’t a scam, but I wasn’t thrilled with it. Another reputable company is BrainFuse. Requirements vary by subject you want to tutor for, but at Tutor.com, they wanted you to have a bachelor’s degree and some experience with the subject you wanted to tutor for- degree didn’t have to be in the same subject. Pay was $10 an hour (this was about 5 years ago; no idea if it’s the same now).

      I wasn’t thrilled with it because they wanted us to accept all tutoring sessions that came our way, even if we weren’t fully familiar with the question (we hadn’t read the book they needed help with, for example). Tutor.com wanted us to skim Spark Notes while in the session to help the kid. A little stressful to keep the kid engaged while trying to speed read in another browser window, and keep the session to 20 minutes. But it was easy to log in to at any point for a bit of extra money.

      I left because they wanted us to start tutoring two kids at the same time, while being very clear that we weren’t to tell the kids that, and gave us all sorts of things to say to jump from session to session (“Let me check this reference for you; I’ll be right back!” And jump to the other session.). That was too shady for me.

      Most of the Tutor.com sessions were from public libraries, and those were the ones we were supposed to keep to 20 minutes. The kids could keep logging back in for help, but would have to start another 20 minute session with a different tutor. There were clients that paid individually and we could help those clients as long as we needed to. As a librarian myself, I also wasn’t thrilled with that.

  189. Fresh Faced*

    Super bummed out with my job search today and could use a pick me up. An internship opened up at company-I-really-want-to-work-for, I’ve been tailoring my portfolio to this company, agonized over the cover letter, sent it in my new reviewed and updated CV….. only to get a standard rejection letter a hour later. I’ve been looking for a job for a year now, and I’m just so tired of the whole process. Tailor your portfolio, tailor your CV, write a bespoke cover letter that makes the company think they’re your number 1 first choice company. Just to get a insincere copy/paste rejection letter, or nothing at all. I know I shouldn’t take it personally and I shouldn’t care so much, but if I don’t care then I can’t write an application worth a damn. Just can’t stop thinking that if I can’t even get interviewed for a role that seems like such a good fit for me, how am I going to ever get a job?

    1. nep*

      I hear you. That is precisely the sense I have when I hear nothing or get the form rejection letter. Easier said than done, but you simply cannot let that break your spirit and your drive — any negativity or despair is likely to sabotage your efforts. Let the misses fuel your determination.
      It could help to think of various possible reasons you didn’t get a job — you don’t know what other candidates offered, you don’t know whether you were in the top two or three and another was selected for a reason that does not reflect at all on your competence or desirability.
      Chin up — it can be disheartening as hell but you will be successful. All the best and keep us posted.

  190. Tookie Clothespin*

    I know I’m super late this week so I will also post next week, but just in case someone was still lurking around I will ask.

    I started a new job recently. It’s a place that I’d interned before and I’ve been there a little over three months. I’m miserable. The culture has changed so much since I was last there. This is my first full time permanent job. I am trying to stick it out a year but I feel so marginalized and end up crying in my car every day after work. There are a couple jobs that I’m looking at applying for but don’t know whether to put this job on the resume or not. My internship would be on my resume, I’m just not sure about the current job because of the short time I’ve been there. I realize that job hopping could be an issue, especially with the fact that it’s my first full time job but I’m not sure how long I can stick it out. I’ve learned so much from this experience, it’s just a truly awful fit.

    1. Ann*

      So sorry to hear that. I don’t have advice but I wish you the best. I know it sounds trite but it will all work out.

    2. Graciosa*

      There’s no point in leaving it off your resume as a regular job if the internship is listed – a reference checker will find it when they call about the internship. Even basic “no reference” companies usually provide dates of employment.

      The key here is to have a professional and believable reason for why you’re leaving so soon. Just saying you’re miserable is not going to create a good impression. “Bad fit” will leave the interviewer wondering why you weren’t smart enough to figure this out during your internship.

      If there is a good reason why your experience is so different now from what it was during your internship, that may help. Was the company bought out? Are you in a different function? Even a new manager might provide a better excuse as long as you look like you learned something from this and are behaving professionally. That should be the focus of your script for discussing this.

      Without a strong professional track record, hiring managers may wonder if you know the difference between a dysfunctional work place, a bad culture fit, and the normal adjustment to full time work that everyone goes through. You need to show that you’re a professional who is making a sensible decision for good reasons. Even saying you feel “marginalized” may make someone wonder if you’re just reacting to not getting a participation trophy every day, which is a bad message for a hiring manager. Figure out a way to frame this job change so that it does not give them any reason for concern.

      Good luck.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m so sorry that things suck right now. I think the culture changing is a reasonable reason to be looking and I hope you get an offer soon.

  191. Brother JoJo*

    Let me preface by saying that while I am vastly underpaid, I am employed nonetheless, so I realize I am lucky.

    Conundrum about job offer juggling…none of the companies below know I have other strong possibilities

    Company NY gave me a soft offer for a role, meaning he said he will hire me, he’s asked when I can start, do I need a week off…but he hasn’t told me an exact salary,a nd no offer letter. Sigh. We’ve talked about the salary range, and I would be happy with an offer within that range. To be fair, his company (he is a principle) is merging with another company, and he’s got a lot on his plate. But this has been in a stand still for about 4 weeks now – I would have accepted the offer 4 weeks ago if he gave me an offer letter at that time! This is a “turnkey” role that I can succeed in right away, I know all the players at the company and it’s in my specialty.

    Company CA says I am one of two final candidates, and I will find out in one week if I am hired. A challenging but good position – more work than all the others, and with great potential. Salary and position will be much more than Company NY. Not my specialty but very close and I can “fake it til I make it.”

    Company FL needs 1 more month to make an offer, they are in a transition, but I should contact them if I get a solid offer. Which makes me think he could hire me sooner than he makes out. This is my “dream” role, from all appearances. A lot of work to be done, but I can succeed very soon in this position. It is in my specialty and it’s a ground floor opportunity. The salary would be similar to Company NY.

    Company TX made a solid offer, but it’s salary is less than the other 3 roles, but still more than my current gig. I have him on “hold” until next week.

    I’m open to any ideas! Never been in this position before! Thanks

    1. nep*

      No particular suggestions, but just to say wow — kudos. Multiple job offers. Clearly you’re doing something (lots of things) right. All the best and keep us posted.

    2. Graciosa*

      I’ve known people in this position, and once you cover the basics (food, shelter, health insurance – none of which seem to be issues here) you should go with your gut. You spend a huge portion of your waking life at work, so pick the one you think will make you most eager to get to the office in the morning and most likely to come home at night with a smile on your face.

      Best wishes

    3. Zathras*

      Here’s what I would do: after the holiday, reach out to both company FL and company NY. Tell them you have other offers and you need to make a decision in the next week, can they move up their timeline? Best case scenario, you now have 4 offers to pick from; worst case, you still have company TX and the possibility of company NY and FL in the future.

      Given that you’re currently employed, and seem to have a pretty good success rate job searching (have you been looking for very long?), I wouldn’t take the offer from TX just because it’s more money if you’re not otherwise excited about it. Even if you don’t get an offer from CA, you could turn TX down and wait to see what happens with NY and FL on their timeline. Meanwhile keep applying to other interesting stuff as it pops up.

      Also, assuming you picked the “company names” you used for a reason – think about where you want to live, and make sure you evaluate the salaries offered against the cost of living there! $80K is a very different salary in NYC or San Francisco than in West Nowhere, TX, or even Somewhere, TX. Think about the location itself and whether you would enjoy living there (or at least whether it seems like a place you’d be interested in trying out for a few years). Are there opportunities to do the stuff you do for fun in those places? It’s not the end of the world to move somewhere you’re not super thrilled about for a couple of years if it’s a great career move, but don’t move somewhere crappy for a job that you’re not excited about.

      Good luck!

  192. Job hunting makes me scared 1 year later*

    A year ago, I was set to graduate, and was desperately looking for work that I HAD to find because my family couldn’t support me during any unemployment spells. And it didn’t help that I wasn’t able to finish my Master’s Thesis owing to unforeseen difficulties.

    A year later, and my family’s financial situation has improved drastically to the point that they can support me if it takes several months to find work, and I’m about to finish my Thesis.

    With all these improvements, though, I’m scared sh*tless of looking for work. All the desperation comes back. The feeling of not knowing whether I was going to starve next month. Or whether I’d be stuck in a low-paying career trajectory because that’s all they have.

    Those are silly thoughts, because I’m heading into a fairly lucrative field (which I’ve confirmed by networking with professionals who are already employed there). But that doesn’t make me any less panicked.

    HALP

    1. Anna Held*

      Breathe. It’s a horrible, horrible process and it can be traumatic, the kind of trauma that lingers. But you’re in a MUCH better place now! Not just the financial security, but the degree! Your whole search will be different —
      your resume will be different, you’ll be able to apply to “reach” jobs, and be choosier instead of wasting time and effort on jobs you don’t really want anyway.

      Work regular hours at the job hunt, but take care of yourself too. Take the weekends off and see a therapist if you need to (or whatever works). The only way out is through, and we’re here if you need to vent every Friday!

    2. Green with Envy*

      I don’t have much advice, but I actually just came to ask something similar. I feel so traumatized by my first post-grad job search, sometimes, that it makes me shiver to even imagining job searching again!

      1. Anxa*

        I’m still on my first job search in a way. I started seeing my SO right as I was graduating college, and I haven’t found a full-time, permanent job that fits my career goals since.

        We had a pretty heavy relationship talk this week that was somewhat job related (I feel stuck in my job search in part because I care more about family and personal life than career climbing, but also feel like I don’t want all of my potential to be squandered, and he’s looking for an academic job which of course is not easy on relationships).

        It came out that my unemployment changed me. He’s not wrong. It’s true. But it was one of the saddest things I ever heard. I don’t know if I’ll ever be the same. I’ve become so much more anxious and make most of my decisions through fear. But I don’t even think it’s all anxiety brain and disordered thinking, because most of my fears are founded or come true.

        1. Anna Held*

          It does shake your confidence and leave you permanently marked in many ways. A colleague pointed out to me how some of my anxieties were coming out, and jokingly asked what had happened to me that I’d react that way to something innocuous she’d said. Well, unemployment had happened. I did still carry a lot of self-doubt. Six months later and doing well at the job, and it’s gone. Now it depends on your experiences, etc., how long it lasts, but you do climb out of it or learn to manage it.

          And there is a good aspect to unemployment! You’re still young, have a support system, a degree, you’ll get there eventually. Maybe not where you thought you’d be, but that’s ok. And you’ll have picked up empathy for people, having learned that they can’t always control their circumstances, can do everything right and still fail, can go through a bad patch and just need some help. You’ll know what it’s like to be poor. So many people in the world share that fate, it will help you if you can understand and empathize. You’ll also know better how to handle reversals, and know yourself better — strengths and weaknesses. Life is long, and this will help you on your journey.

          But I’d also advise you to use some of that down time to read up on retirement planning.

          1. Anxa*

            I actually don’t have much down time now! For the first time since 2009, I’m working full-time (plus I have kept some hours at my previous two part-time jobs, and we share one car so our commute is a long one). It’s just not permanent and after 7 years of trying to break into this field (and 9 years since graduating), I’ve realized that I’ve discovered other roles I’d be a better fit for.

            Retirement planning is so scary! I’m already about a decade behind. My SO doesn’t feel the urgency as much because he was in grad school for so long, and his current job is still not really a job-job (it’s a postdoc so he doesn’t pay SS tax, has no retirement plan benefits, and his income doesn’t qualify for an IRA). Honestly I just plan on socking everything I can away for two years once my higher interest debt is paid.

  193. smokey*

    Is it rude to ask my new boss why he left his last employer?

    We’re in a small, close-knit field where every professional is about 3 degrees of separation from one another at most. The kind where I know several people who have worked there and heard all kinds of stories (good and bad) from there already. He’s a very friendly, open person but hasn’t volunteered that particular information. He has left openings to ask but I wasn’t sure if I should.

    I only want to know for my own curiosity. The field is known for being pretty casual on the professionalism scale but I don’t want to be weird.

    1. Nathaniel*

      Hey Smokey, I think it depends on your relationship. If you are best friends, go for it. If you have a impersonal professional relationship, it will be seen as prying. The expectation is that it will be used for judgement or gossip. I would say play it safe and do not ask. Keep your nose down. Do the work. Don’t dig.

    2. Aisling*

      I wouldn’t, unless you already knew him before he was your boss. It’s not the sort of thing a subordinate asks the boss, and I can only see it happening if you were already friends. Especially if the only reason you want to know is your own curiosity.

    3. Candy*

      Maybe just word it a different way like “So what was Last Job like?” while chatting generally about your field. He might offer up why he left or he might not, but either way you’ll just come across as casually making conversation.

  194. Kandi*

    I was a temp graphics person at my job until 3 people quit last month. I then took over an it role that is a critical for my It dept. My supervisor liked my performance so much I received three accolades and Temp of the quarter. She literally put that I “filled the vacancy of (IT role)” in the email sent out to the entire section, including the CIO.

    I asked for a change and title and pay and I was told i was “replaceable”. Now what do i do?

    2. Aisling*

      I don’t think “filled the vacancy” meant what you thought it did. I think the boss meant you literally “filled in”, as a temp would, and you did such a great job she wanted to let everyone know. That’s a wonderful thing and a great thing to put on your resume. This sounds like it was a misunderstanding. If you’d like, you could tell her as much: “Apologies for the misunderstanding; I thought the email meant that I was hired for the vacant position.” But unless it’s brought up again you don’t need to.

      1. Kandi*

        I’m more irritated that they are trying to break up the position into three roles, yet in the only (now and when another person transfers on) who will be dedicated to doing this work full time.

        I asked for a name change and I was told they’d “come up with something”

    3. Artemesia*

      Think about how to best package the evidence of your success in this job and start looking for a place that people are not fleeing from. There are lots of ways to tell people ‘no’. when the way they choose is ‘you are not important, we could easily replace you’, then believe them. They have shown who they are.

  195. nep*

    I’d be interested to hear people’s thoughts about resume format / design — particularly hiring managers. Outside of graphic designer jobs and the like, where one would want to show design skills, what do you think of a plain black and white resume vs one with a fancy layout, special graphics, etc?
    The past couple times I’ve submitted resumes (for editorial jobs) they’ve been quite plain — I wonder whether this comes across as lazy or un-enterprising or behind the times.

    1. Graciosa*

      I care about whether the resume is easily scannable (enough white space, good sized font, appropriate use of things like bolding and bullets) which I suppose is an aspect of design. I actively dislike graphics on resumes (it’s a business document and this is Not Done in my field).

      I don’t know what you mean by a “fancy” layout, but if it’s anything other than simple horizontal text in a basic black font on a white background I suspect I would be unimpressed. If you just mean the name is centered in larger font at the top, then I’m fine. Bolding job titles and bulleting key accomplishments for each position is fine. Again, I want to scan it quickly and easily.

      I care about finding the information I want, so that’s my test. Anything that detracts from that is a negative.

    2. MissGirl*

      My resume is more designed. I don’t have graphics but I do use two colors and a slightly different san serif font. I use a background color on one of the columns. I’ve had several hiring managers comment positively on how it stands out in a sea of sameness. I finished my MBA recently and everyone used the same old Harvard format. I’ve talked to a few recruiters, who talk about how they view hundreds of resumes and like one that stops them. One woman I met was hired on at Nike through on online application, which they never do. They told her it was because of how resume was designed.

      That said, be careful you don’t sacrifice function for design. My resume is still scannable by online portals, which breaks it up into the various entries. However, I’ve noticed everyone I interviewed with had a printout of my resume PDF in its original form.

    3. Kandi*

      As a designer, I was always told to make sure the contrast is high enough that it can be printed in black and white on a horrible copier.

      If you make it in Ai, be sure to layer your text so that the PDF can read be can coherently by a website. It’s a pain to fix otherwise.

      I also prefer to print my resume on luxury paper (not standard resume paper) for a job I really want. It’s like 30-40 cents more per copy, if you can afford it. It shows that you know paper as well as print, and the interviewer usually throws thier boring copy to the side.

  196. fh*

    A few months out of college, I interviewed for a full time job at a tech company. They told me they wanted me for the position, but had to wait for their parent company to approve new hires before extending an official offer. Turned out they entered a hiring freeze, and the best they could do was offer me a 3 month internship (basically the same role, but hourly instead of exempt) with a possibility for extension. I didn’t have many options (there’s pretty much nothing I dread more than searching for jobs), so I took it.

    During the internship, they repeatedly reassured me that their hope was to convert me to a full time employee, or worst case scenario I could do back to back internships. Well, today was the last day of the initial internship, and due to some delays with submitting paperwork, they have not gotten anything officially approved yet. However, they are still expecting me to continue working while the situation is being sorted out. It seems like a very bad idea to keep working 40 hours a week with nothing in writing, but leaving now would definitely burn some bridges (and the only immediate backup I have is returning to a somewhat shitty part time job I had before this). Based on my interview process, I’m a bit skeptical at how fast this will really get worked out.

    Monday I’m working from home (realistically more of a day off in this case), but they’re expecting me back in the office Wednesday. Obviously I should have pushed harder to get this sorted out in time, but it’s a bit late for that now. Any suggestions on what I can do?

    1. Ann O.*

      I wish I had good scripts for you, but when you say they haven’t gotten anything officially approved, does that mean they don’t have a formal end date for new internship? Or does that mean they’re not authorized to pay you money? Because it it’s the latter, do not work for free for an unspecified amount of time. Their failure to have their act together is not your problem. (also, it’s probably illegal although IANAL) Hold firm and explain that you can’t work without knowing when you’ll be official and receive the back pay.

      If it’s the former, personally I’d be okay with riding with the situation in your shoes. A paycheck is generally better than no paycheck and you don’t want to burn bridges if you don’t have to. But I would definitely return to the job hunt. I don’t know where you’re located, but I’m told this is still a hot job market (which personally, I don’t expect to be the case a year or sooner from now). I know you don’t love job hunting, but that’s a better option than being free labor.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I think it depends on how certain they are that it’ll eventually work out (and, relatedly, how much you believe them). Ultimately, if you do any work for them you must be paid for it, so even if the internship falls thru they’d still owe you for hours worked. Of course, if it doesn’t work out and the company is a big pain, you’ll have to come after that money, and that’s time you have to take out of your life.

  197. Annie Mouse*

    I’ve recently moved bases at work and while I’ve only been there two weeks so far, it feels like a new job!! I love it! I’m back in the geographical area I know and used to work in, so I’m not only familiar with locations but I know a lot of the people I’m working with already. I’ve had a couple of fantastic partners these two weeks and I’ve only had one ever so slightly less than great shift in that time, compared to feeling crappy and insecure most shifts recently before. And my commute is fantastic. A friend commented yesterday that we were still drinking coffee half an hour before I started, compared to leaving the house an hour earlier. I’m slightly scared that the honeymoon shineyness will wear off soon but I’m enjoying this feeling while it lasts!

  198. Laura in NJ*

    Should I apply for a job that I was rejected for last year (had only 1 interview and never heard from them again)? My circumstances haven’t changed (still unemployed) so I’d basically be submitting the same exact resume, and I’m not getting interviews anyway so would it be okay to try again?

    1. Fresh Faced*

      I would! I ended up applying to the same company for almost the same role around 8 months after my first application. I didn’t hear back the first time, but got to the interview stage on the second go. Your circumstances may not have changed but the companies probably has, so you might be the perfect person for the role this time round! I would try and rejig your cover letter if you can though, so it’s not a direct copy/paste.
      Good Luck!

    2. atexit8*

      You can, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

      How do you know that the job is really still open?
      If it is, why haven’t been they able to fill it?

      Last September, I went for an in-person interview with a former employer.
      I was laid off more than 10 years ago from that company for financial reasons.
      I never received a formal rejection letter or email after that interview.
      Two months later in November, they posted on Careerbuilder again.
      I reached out to the hiring manager by email saying that I was still interested.
      Didn’t receive a reply.
      The position is still listed on the company website.
      The company has less than 50 employees.

  199. consultant*

    How well do you prepare for job interviews?

    It’s clear that one should learn about the company and read the news about it. But I’ve been asked extremely specific questions during interviews at times and I’m curious if that’s normal.

    One global pharmaceutical company asked me about the structure of its sales: what % of its products is sold on every continent. Also, about which drug they got approved a few weeks before (I was able to answer). Also, to name some of its products in a specific area. It wasn’t a job in sales.

    Funny thing is I spent one week preparing for the interview about 8 h a day. And they still managed to surprise me with some questions.

    Is it normal to expect candidates to be that prepared? I mean, it’s clear that people normally apply for several positions and I can’t imagine spending 40 h preparing for each interview.

    1. Anon to me*

      Reasonably well. If a strategic plan is available I review that, as well as carefully reviewing any departmental specific (to the department(s) I’m applying) information I can find. When I am interviewing candidates, it’s a red flag to me if the candidate has clearly only done a curosory review of our website (or no review), but I do not expect any candidate to have specific information, but it impresses me when they do they have that information.

  200. nep*

    Anyone here a marketing writer? For what kind of business or institution? What if anything surprised you about the work once you were at it for a while?
    Working on my application for this kind of job (would be at a university) and interested in any insights, tips.

  201. Miss Mia*

    Kind of late tot he game here but I’m hoping someone will see this.

    So I had a head injury at work back in January. I was working at a school with a child who had behavioral issues that were kind of being pushed aside (they were known it was just kind of “a behavioral consult is in the process of being scheduled but not a top priority” sort of thing). Anyway, got injured by the child. Had a workers comp claim which ended in me being released because I simply could not go without working another week without losing my apartment. Was told that there could be permanent damage but we simply wouldn’t know for a few months or years. Anyway… I left that job, tried a full time plus part time, had to quit for various reasons which included me finding that I was constantly confused and forgetting to do things like document (was a Direct Support Professional so this was VERY important). Kind of chalked it up to being tired (working 80hrs a week) and my mental health issues (Bipolar, PTSD). Quit, now working two part time jobs… and have come to realize its probably from the head injury. I have to change my password EVERY time I log out of something because I simply cannot remember it anymore. The only reason I still remember my cashier credentials is that they were there before the injury. Everything that I’ve had to put in or change post injury doesn’t stick. I can’t place events in a timeline anymore post injury. Ask me when something happened and I’m like “Maybe at x? I don’t know”. I am confused a lot by simple tasks. I forget I’m doing things and just walk off. EVERYTHING has gotten worse since January.

    I’ve contacted the insurance company and was told I can go see a doctor of my choice and that they may cover it. Should I go back to the doctor that released me and handled the case? Do I see another doctor? Do I need a lawyer at this point? This is significantly impacting my life. I feel like its a liability to have me working at this point, or even really driving. I am at risk of losing my apartment because I can’t work full time or hold down two part time jobs with significant hours. Plus with my other health issues its just becoming an issue not being able to work. I need to work because insulin without insurance is expensive.

    Any help or advice would be appreciated.

    1. The Principal of the Thing*

      Can you contact the workers compensation office for a follow up? This is a pretty clear cut case from where I’m sitting. You may find a lawyer willing to follow up on this pro bono, but it’s not right that you’re left in this situation.

      (I’ve been injured by a child at work, but I am in Australia where workers comp works quite differently.)

    2. neverjaunty*

      You 100% need a lawyer at this point. (And you shouldn’t have to pay out of pocket if you’re in the US; lawyers who handle workers’ compensation and workplace injuries get paid a percentage of any recovery, you don’t pay them out of pocket.)

      For one thing, your former workplace’s WC insurer will not take you seriously unless you have a lawyer. That’s the hard truth of how insurance companies work. If you don’t have an attorney, they will assume they can screw you over.

      Head injuries are very serious and you are entitled to a lot more than being told they MAY held if you see a doctor.

    3. Julianne*

      Were you a member of your union when you worked at the school? If so, speak to your union rep, as they should have procedures in place to support you through the WC process. You might even be entitled to a lawyer through the union.

      1. Miss Mia*

        I was a part time paraprofessional so I wasn’t a part of the union as I could not pay the union dues. I should contact the union rep as well though to make sure that I wasn’t somehow covered (when I worked at a community college, I wasn’t a part of the union but still had some union coverages).

  202. nep*

    I dread job interviews because of chronic bad breath. Anyone have any tips for dealing with this?
    In a couple of professional situations, I have told a colleague something like: listen, I often have a problem with bad breath — I hope it’s not bothering you…please don’t hesitate to signal if it gets noticeable and I’ll go gargle or something… That really depends on my rapport with the person because it’s not really cool to put someone on the spot like that. At the same time it brings some relief to just put it out there and let people know I’m open to being nudged about it if need be.
    Ugh. Anyone? Interviewers, have you ever faced this? Thoughts?

    1. consultant*

      I don’t think I would notice anybody having bad breath in such a situation. Normally, you just present yourself when shaking hands and then sit a meter or both apart so there’s no way I would notice that.

      I don’t think you should worry.

  203. Anonyby*

    So for the past six months, I’ve been essentially working two PT jobs at my company in order to get FT (4 days at one office during the week, and both weekend days at an office I’ve been with now for 3.5 years).

    We’re finally switching me to a normal M-F FT schedule! I’m so excited! Last weekend at the one office to wrap everything up, and then I get my weekends back! I’ve been working weekends at this company for 7.5 years. (I was at another office for 4 years even before the current/almost old office.)

    1. Anna Held*

      Congratulations! I know how much that sort of thing means. Enjoy your weekends!

  204. Lucia*

    Hi, I’ve never posted here, but job searching is hard, so…

    I’m a college student (21 years old), and I need a part time job, but I’m not very good at service jobs for various reasons. Recently I quit my last job (under not-great circumstances, but I don’t think that will be an issue with what I’m applying for), so I’m trying to go for something different.

    I just applied to a tutoring service that looks promising, but one thing is that there’s a background check and I’m a little worried because I’m afraid that since I’d be working with minors, it’ll be more thorough. My main issue is that I failed a drug test once. In my defense, the supermarket that hired me did the drug test before they officially hired me, had me work for a week, and then let me go when I tested positive for stimulants…that is, Adderall I was prescribed for ADHD. Which I informed the hiring manager of before the drug test, and she acted like it wouldn’t be a problem, and well…then it was. (I take a lot of prescription meds, but I don’t do any illegal drugs and I don’t smoke pot.)

    Anyway. Does a failed drug test like that show up on a background check? I’m thinking ‘no’, but I’m still sort of worried.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure how it could end up on a BG check. Is the background check criminal, financial, or just former employers? If they don’t know you applied for the job and they don’t know you had a drug screen I don’t think they could find out without knowing the companies involved there.

    2. atexit8*

      Background check is generally a criminal background check.
      I applied to Burlington stores in Dec 2016 for a store associate position.
      I received a copy of the background check they paid for.
      This was unusual because job applicants generally don’t get to see the results.
      Anyway it looked like it searched for criminal history.
      I also saw a list of past addresses.
      No list of former employers.
      I didn’t see anything about drug test results.

    3. Buu*

      Wow that sucks, but I can’t imagine it’d be a problem. Surely your doctor would be willing to write a letter saying you’re on prescription drugs anyway?

    4. Wheezy Weasel*

      The hiring manager and drug screen company mishandled this, so I’d be hesitant to even frame it as a failed drug test. Both parties should have asked about legally prescribed medications beforehand so that this wouldn’t have been an issue. To my knowledge there is no central repository of any drug test results for hiring purposes. There are simply hundreds or even thousands of companies that perform this testing and I understand they are hired specifically for the purpose of reporting results to their client.

  205. Anxa*

    I have a job to apply for that’s due tomorrow, and the job ad asks to email/fax/or mail a resume or county application.

    I really want to email a resume, because it’s a holiday weekend and getting to a fax machine will be touch, and their application had virtually no margins and I didn’t have time to reprint it all centered.

    I work tomorrow so I won’t have access to email or fax all day, but I could find a mailbox probably.

    I really, really want to believe that I can just email my resume, but I don’t trust the job ad. I applied to three positions this summer through the state and county, and for each of them it seemed like the people hiring and the people posting the ads were on completely different pages (for example, I applied to part-time jobs that were full-time, was sent to interview in the wrong city, etc.).

  206. Willow Sunstar*

    Question: What are you supposed to do when you get interview questions internally you cannot be honest about?

    I have a coworker. He appears to have either mental issues and/or a possible disability and cannot completely cover for me when I am gone. As a result, I use up about half my 3-week vacation time annually because I do not have the time to fix his screw-ups. Management is clearly protecting him because I have tried the “show boss screen shots and talk about it” route and nothing happened. He is s huge reason why I am looking for another job, but not the only reason.

    Last interview, I got asked if I ever had to delegate work to anyone. I had literally no one else to use as an example. He is ok on certain easy tasks, but anything you would have to problem-solve on, he cannot do it without having everything spelled out for him and his hand held all the way thru, with him asking a thousand questions. And he has been there 3 years. I described the easy tasks and said he had learned them, which he had.

    I then got asked why I didn’t use all my vacation time. Obviously I couldn’t mention co-worker’s problems, so I just said it interfered with my volunteer activities. Sometimes it does, so it wasn’t an out-and-out lie.

    I have an interview this coming week in a different area of the company. I hope
    I won’t get asked that question again. But I don’t know what else to say.

    1. Observer*

      For the vacation time, you could always say that your boss discourages using your vacation time – it’s true.

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