open thread – August 11-12, 2017

by Alison Green on August 11, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

You may also like:
{ 1,537 comments }

{ 1,537 comments… read them below }

  1. Jimbo*

    Hello AAM community! A question about references when resigning. I plan on submitting my resignation next week and offer a two-month exit transition period to my boss where I will accomplish five or six key tasks and to give them lead time to find and hire a replacement.

    I am following Alison’s advice from a previous blog post that when doing an exit transition, to come to an agreement with my boss on specific things such as timing for leaving, that I will wrap up existing tasks and not take on new projects, creating documentation, etc. One big thing I want to come to an agreement with my boss are references. Specifically, that he will give me a positive reference if any prospective employers were to approach him about me.

    How do you propose approaching this question of references?

    I am worried a bit that he might not give me a good reference because despite stellar work I’ve done because we have issues with getting along and a clash of work and communication styles. The timing of my resignation also comes at a key time for the project and also I’ve only been in my position for about a year.

    I am leaving because the position and the way the job and project is structured is not a good fit. There are also serious issues with funding, disorganization, lack of clear communications, and weak leadership. In addition, the mismatch of styles between me and my boss has resulted in frequent clashes that are really stressing me out.

    Should I involve HR on the references (and the coming to an agreement) conversation? I know they will be more cognizant of laws and potential risk to lawsuits if an employer were to give inaccurate or malicious references.

    1. Channel Z*

      Can you wait until your final wrap up meeting close to the two month mark? Executing a smooth transition would increase the likelihood of a positive reference, since it is the last thing they will remember. On the flip side, if the transition doesn’t go well, that would work against you. If tension is likely to increase during your notice period, maybe it would be wise to shorten it by a month.

      1. Jimbo*

        Thanks! Yes, I am afraid of tensions increasing when I put in my notice. Perhaps I should consider a 4-week transition period rather than 8 weeks

        1. Artemesia*

          If you are in the US and there is no contractual transition period, I would give two weeks notice. You may end up losing your job that day; don’t risk two months. You can over the next two months be getting your job in order, documenting anything that would be helpful for transition etc without giving notice till you are ready to go.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      If you don’t expect your boss to treat you well, why give two months’ notice? That only gives him the opportunity to push you out before you’re ready.

      1. Jimbo*

        Hi there, I was aiming to exit gracefully and to ruffle as few feathers as possible and to maintain a good professional relationship

        1. YeahNo*

          Your intentions are admirable, but your first priority should be protecting yourself. Especially given your contentious relationship, I would be very wary of providing more than 2 weeks’ notice in this case. 2 weeks is the professional standard and would not reflect poorly on you unless there were serious extenuating circumstances.

          1. Jimbo*

            Thanks for the feedback! This gives me something to seriously consider. I do have to factor in my emotional state and mental health and how my contentious relationship with my boss has been driving me crazy

                1. Happy Lurker*

                  I once gave 4 weeks notice. I thought I was helping the company by giving a months notice and tying things up. I was told to finish that day and be done.
                  I had an ok relationship with the boss, until the last month. I also had 3 people’s workload for 6 months. They wrote me up for not accomplishing more…but admitted I needed two more people to complete the tasks.

                  Jimbo, get yourself in a good place mentally and any other way you need and get out. The company will be fine. If your boss or your HR person is professional it will be fine.

              2. Jerry Vandesic*

                If the relationship is contentious, there’s probably nothing that you can do in the last month that would guarantee a good reference.

          2. only acting normal*

            Just an aside, for non-US readers, 2-weeks is not the professional standard everywhere. It’s contractually 4 weeks where I work (and in my last job), and 8 weeks for more senior roles. I’ve seen 3+ month contractual notice periods for very senior roles (though this sometimes ends up being “gardening leave” so you can’t poach clients / trade secrets). I’ve also worked at places where the notice was 1 day – but that was for temp workers in a call centre.

    3. JustaCPA*

      theoretically, business casual but the warehouse/manufacturing/engineers are all over the place from workout leggings and a tank top to jeans, sneakers and t shirts.

      The C suite folks myself included, dress more officially business casual and I would say since Im new to the office world after many years of self employment that I probably err on the side of formal due to my position.

    4. persimmon*

      It sounds like you’re planning to resign first and look for a job second. Just wondering why you can’t go the more typical path of looking for a job, and then resigning once you find one? If you do it in this order, everyone will understand that your current boss can’t be a reference so you won’t have this issue. You probably then won’t be able to give such a long notice period, but as others have said this is generally not necessary or reasonably expected.

      1. Jimbo*

        Some circumstances have occurred where I just can’t stand working with my boss anymore. The relationship is getting to be toxic. I would much rather get out of there gracefully than take the route of landing a job before I resign. Job hunting can take a long time and I’d like to make my exit sooner rather than later. Plus the job is really not a good fit anymore for me and I’d like to give them a chance to find a replacement that is a better fit sooner.

        1. persimmon*

          If it’s that bad, you definitely should not give 2 months notice. I would offer a standard 2 weeks, and ONLY if asked be willing to go up to 3 or maybe as a goodwill gesture (don’t bring it up preemptively).

          1. Jimbo*

            Thank you! I think you are right. I need to put myself and my well-being first here rather than the needs of my boss or colleagues

          2. Lily Rowan*

            Agreed.

            I’d also say, there’s only so much you can do to guarantee a good reference, and doing good work is the main thing. I’ve only heard of that kind of thing being negotiated when someone is being pushed out for sketchy reasons, and the job agrees to something neutral.

        2. Chaordic One*

          I respect what you’re saying, Jimbo. If it is that bad, you’re really better off to quit. I tried to tough out a toxic job and I only became more burnt out and I ended up being fired (on the day before the profit-sharing bonuses were awarded).

          Keep looking. Maybe you’ll get lucky and find something before your last day.

        3. Artemesia*

          You really should not give more than 2 weeks notice in this case. This will not make them look favorably on you; it will jsut give him two weeks to abuse you more. Get out; expect him to fire you when you give your two weeks.

    5. YuliaC*

      I think that going to HR about the references issue would be a big mistake. There is no law that requires your boss to give you a positive reference, even if you have some sort of verbal agreement with him about that. The most that HR could do is to remind the boss that giving you a bad reference may open them to lawsuits, but I highly doubt that such a reminder would improve the boss’s desire to give you a good reference.

    6. persimmon*

      Another thought, for the reference issue: is there someone else at your job who oversees some of your work and would give a more reliable positive reference?

      1. Jimbo*

        I can try two bosses who are a level above my boss. They seem to be more reasonable people. However, as far as overseeing my work, it is my immediate boss and that is it

  2. Recruiting for Mini-Me*

    I have been thinking about it for awhile and I want to make an internal move soon. However, I’m in a weird spot where I’m the only technical person in my department and I cannot train any of my co-workers nor my boss to do my job on short notice. (I have coverage for the really basic reporting, but nothing else. My boss isn’t planning on hiring someone for me to train yet either.) I’ve heard some advice about looking for a replacement preemptively, and I’ve starting putting out feelers in my network, but it all feels like uncharted territory. (Surreptitiously hiring/searching, but with no guarantees and no real timeline?) I feel like my deliverable might be, “hey I want to leave but here is a set of resumes that I’ve done a first pass with (including screening chats and info interviews) that might help you out.”

    Has anyone done this before? What advice do you have for me? Is this even a good idea?

    1. kittymommy*

      At the office I’m currently at and the previous one (same employer) we have a “drop dead” book. Essentially, it is a hard copy and USB drive of how to do every procedure, every task in a step-by-step process. There are even screen shots of some steps. They took awhile to form, and I still need to update the one at my current job, but they are pretty useful.

      1. HR Assistant/HRIS Specialist*

        We call ours the “lotto guides”, as in, if X person won the lotto and quit to go live on a private island with all their new money, how do we do their work? But same principle.

      2. Old Cynic*

        I call these “hit by a bus” book. I had a manager once who wanted all our work at the end of the day to be easily picked up by an associate in case we were hit by a bus on the way home. She never mentioned being hit coming into work!

        1. Admin of Sys*

          We used to call ours that, and then someone at the university actually got hit by a bus, and it suddenly became insensitive (though very accurate). I like the ‘lotto guides’ Jadelyn mentioned…it puts a positive spin on the idea.

          2. Lala*

            Whereas I call mine that precisely because I once had a colleague who was hit by a bus (she was okay, but she was out for a couple of months and we had to figure out a lot of her job from scratch because we didn’t want to bother her). My current job didn’t have one until I got here, but the previous experience taught me that having one is essential, especially if no one else is cross-trained in what you do. The official label is just “Job Title Procedures & Info”, though.

      3. AKchic*

        I always called mine the Idiot’s Guide to the Kingdom. Which nobody ever looked at, because even if I was on vacation, or recovering from surgery, they’d just call or text me anyways. I had a copy on the server, a hard copy in my boss’s office, a hard copy on my desk, and a hard copy at the reception desk.
        Nobody ever bothered to read it. 8 years of meticulously organized facts, information, How-To’s and resources.
        I left a year ago and I still get phone calls and texts. I have literally gotten a call asking “do you remember when we moved to the new building? You remember helping X pack his office? Good. Can you remember Y contract? Do you remember the 2nd draft of that contract? Do you know where we would have put it?”

        1. Anonish*

          I just left a job like that! They didn’t replace me, and also didn’t read my extensive manuals, and are calling and emailing. Some questions really are stupid – my manager just emailed me with one about something that is super basic to his role, and also listed in our handbook. He could have googled it, even.

          1. only acting normal*

            I think this is what spam filters were really designed for. >;)
            Or maybe a selective auto-reply with “This email is no longer checked regularly. If your question is about oldjob contact ineptmanager.”

      4. Her Grace*

        Mine (two jobs ago) was also called the “hit by a bus” book. It started out as a guerrilla-wiki to document procedures and processes and general how-to’s. This was because the team to which I belonged were really clueless when it came to even basic computer stuff. Let them know this wiki existed, and if I wasn’t in and they had a small, easily-solved issue, they could find the solution there.

        Nobody ever used it. They simply waited until I was in next. One day, when they had a rather egregious issue they could have solved on their own, I pointed them to the wiki and asked why they didn’t look it up, they said they knew I was coming in, and I replied, “What happens if I get hit by a bus? This wiki is so you aren’t left in the lurch.”

        And that’s how it got its name.

        My current job has a wiki and we’ve got a well-structured team, so this isn’t so much of an issue. But yeah, I believe everyone should have some sort of operations manual for their job, so if they do get hit by a bus or win Powerball then whoever’s stepping in, whether it’s a co-worker or a new hire, can have a clue as to how the job functions. It’s no fun taking on a role when you have no idea how it’s supposed to work.

        I love “Idiot’s Guide to the Kingdom”. Nice.

    2. Rincat*

      I recently made an internal transfer at my large university. I had some skills and knowledge that no one else had in my department, at my level. However I gave my old boss 2 weeks notice and said I would help transition my duties during this time – but I didn’t offer anything else. I don’t think you need to. It really is the responsibility of the manager to ensure these kinds of things are planned for – whether that’s training a coworker, or farming it out to another department, or what.

      It’s kind of you to offer more than that, and I do certainly understand the reasoning to maintain a good relationship with your current boss, but you should do what’s best for you, and let him worry about coverage. Like many have said before – you could be hit by a bus, move across the country, or otherwise be unable to work suddenly for a variety of reasons, and your boss would have to figure out what to do then (or for any of your coworkers). So do that is best for you and your career. Let your boss figure out how to fill that gap.

      My advice is to be realistic about what you offer for a notice period; don’t let your boss or anyone else try to talk you into a protracted notice period; do what you can during your notice period for training, transition documents, etc. I don’t think you need to try to screen applicants for him, but it might be nice to say, hey I’ve got a few friends who are interested.

      Good luck!

      1. Kelsi*

        I was going to say the same. I’m making an internal transition (not a new position, just some of my job duties are changing). I’ve been putting it off for awhile–not because I don’t want the change, but because I’ve been worried about how the old duties were going to get handled and didn’t want to leave anyone in a bad position. My boss flat-out told me (nicely!) in this week’s meeting, “That’s not your job to solve. That’s my job and [other supervisor]’s. We are the ones responsible for figuring out how those duties get covered!”

    3. paul*

      I mean…that’s on them at this point. You even gave him warning and h didn’t hire someone early so…

      The way I’m approaching it with my boss is that we’ve discussed my departure (next spring) and they’ll either have to find a coworker who wants to try my position, or they’ll have to pay an outsider to come in and train my replacement. Because while I’m willing to give more than 2 weeks due to my situation (i.e I’ll have at least six weeks advance warning), I wouldn’t feel required to give more if it put me in a bad spot, and ultimately, with how long the turn around can be from advertising an opening to onboarding, well, even six weeks might not be enough if they have to go with an external candidate.

      1. Recruiting for Mini-Me*

        I’ve requested another technical hire, but haven’t made a pitch that we definitely for sure need two. I haven’t made it plain that I’m ready to go yet, as a new role could be months away. Thus, surreptitious recruiting.

    4. King Friday XIII*

      In my office it’s very common for internal transfers to be planned between the two departments (and my department gets hired from a lot) so the new boss comes to the old boss and says ‘hey we want to hire Fergus for Teapot Financing’ and the old boss says ‘well congrats it’ll be mid-September before we can get his replacement up and running in Spout Servicing, does that work for you?’ and it works out for both departments.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      What are your company’s policies on internal transfers, and do you expect that your boss will be able to give you trouble about transitioning?

      Some companies require that you inform your manager before applying for internal transfers (and some managers are better than others about realizing that an employee needing to move upward or sideways is not a condemnation of them). Some places will make you go through an extended transition period in which you have to learn your new job while still doing a lot of your old one. If you work at a place like that, I’d be looking a lot at trying to find another job outside the organization, not just looking for internal transfers.

      I wouldn’t present resumes of potential candidates — that makes it seem like your leaving is a foregone conclusion, when in reality your manager probably has a lot of say over whether you are able to transfer. (Not to mention whether or not you’re chosen by the hiring manager.) Instead, I’d say something like, “I’m really interested in XYZ position that just opened up” and see where the conversation goes from there. A good manager will not freak out, and will work with you to figure out how to help make that happen. If your manager does freak out, then it’s definitely time to start looking outside the organization.

    6. The IT Manager*

      I don’t think you can do what you are proposing, but I may not understand your situation.

      Does your boss know you want to make an internal move? Have you been offered the new position and its start date yet? If you have and your boss knows and he’s not hiring that’s totally on him.

      However it doesn’t sound like you actually have a new position yet so there’s no reason for your boss to hire your replacement yet. In an internal move, once you are selected your new boss and your old boss will often negotiate a longer delay so that your old position can be filled. Or you may start your new job while still having to do some of your old duties because its for the overall good of the company.

      I don’t think you can or should collect resumes for a job that might not be open or might not filled. If hiring is not your responsibility, you shouldn’t conduct any kind of hiring search. You could recommend someone (but not a set of resumes) when you’re leaving, but it really doesn’t sound like you know that you’re leaving yet.

      IMO you should talk to your boss about moving, find out if its even a possibility, and then find out what you can do to help find your replacement.

      1. Recruiting for Mini-Me*

        Okay, this is fair. I wanted to cover my bases and offer something that may hasten the notice period, but I get this.

        I’ll hold off on the replacement search.

    7. Wolfram alpha*

      Another thing to keep in mind is that your departure may not result in your replacement. Oftentimes good managers will leverage a departing date to evaluate the need and see if something else will work better. Maybe instead of your department having one lone ts person it makes more sense to move that fte to ts etc. It is always nice toention that you are happy to refer folks once the role is posted but showing up with resumes is odd.

    8. Kiwi*

      As someone who hires people, I want to do my own screening. Delighted if people recommend people they know personally but no further than that. If someone in my team told me they’d held “screening chats and info interviews” with potential replacements and here’s a set of pre-screened resumes, I’d be annoyed rather than grateful.

  3. Pam Beasley*

    What is the dress code like at your place of work? At my office, our dress code is business casual M-Th, jeans/very casual on Fridays. Many people choose to wear tennis shoes/local sports team shirts on Fridays!

    2. EddieSherbert*

      No dress code!

      People are pretty good about appropriate-ness (no sweatpants and sweatshirt combos, thongs sticking out or whatever, haha).

      So my typical is jeans and a t-shirt with flats. Occasionally I’ll do shorts that are just above my knee (so “long” shorts for a woman) or yoga pants or something.

      I personally love it – I’m most comfortable in my jeans!

      1. Garland Not Andrews*

        Ours is like yours. Just wear decent clothing. I work for a federal agency and the field offices have uniforms, but on our campus the guy/gal in jeans and a flannel shirt might just be a CPA.
        Most people wear business casual with Friday’s being more casual than business.

      3. A Nonny Mouse*

        Me too!

        I wear long-sleeved tees and jeans pretty much the whole year. The only directive we got about clothing was to wear closed toed shoes — I work in a library and accidentally dropping a heavy book on your foot hurts.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Yeah, I half felt like it was a test when they told me to dress casually for my interview… and then grandboss had gym shorts and a hoodie on! Haha.

    4. Tess*

      Same in my office. People generally tend to look relatively polished on Fridays but there are some people who wear sneakers (not allowed) or things that are low cut/revealing/ill fitting. Typically early 20s types that probably don’t know better. They send out the dress code when this happens but the offenders don’t take note. Lol

    5. Miso*

      Super casual, luckily. I wear jeans and sneakers everyday, and a nicer t-shirt with a cardigan or just a generally nicer top.
      Supposedly there is an official dress code somewhere that states things like only long trousers for men and so on, but no one ever showed it to me, I actually tried to find it and couldn’t and no one ever complained, so I guess I’m fine.

    6. Fabulous*

      I’ve been fortunate that the last couple places I’ve worked are casual – i.e. jeans are OK every day. You still have to look presentable, but there are definitely some people who wear sneakers and t-shirts every day.

      Lord help me if I ever have to go back to business wear – I have nothing that fits anymore!

    7. Red Reader*

      Officially: Mid-range business casual for people who aren’t in clinical roles. No denim (colored or otherwise, including jeans/pants, skirts, or any other piece), no capris (I think technically your pants have to be within a certain number of inches from your ankle bone :P ), no flip flop type sandals, no visible tattoos or unnaturally-colored hair. Clinical folks and some other roles have assigned uniforms or scrubs.
      My department allows jeans for non-patient-facing staff (which is not the same as non-clinical roles) on Fridays, and sometimes we have theme days (again, only for people who don’t interact with patients) like for local sports teams or holidays. I have no idea what they do for the patient-facing staff to make up for not letting them do jeans days.

      Unofficially, I’ve seen people farther up the org chart than me get away with capris and the occasional hair streak, and my executive director knows me as “the girl with the peacock hair” because of the one day I went to an on-site event with my hair down (the bottom six inches were dyed green and purple, it’s not visible when my hair is up) and nobody gets too bent out of shape if I shove a long sleeve up and my forearm tattoo is visible, so long as I can cover it in a pinch.

      1. Red Reader*

        I once worked at a nonprofit where the office manager told me that the dress code was, direct quote, “Cover your tits.” The fundraising manager did not like my fuzzy scarves and cargo pants. The two of them argued a lot. :P

    8. kittymommy*

      Business to business casual, depending on the day and what’s scheduled. No jeans, no shorts. I tend to wear suits, dress, or on casual days, slacks with a button down top and /or blazer or sleeveless top with blazer. For shoes it’s dress shoes/dress sandals, no flip flops or sneakers.

    10. Master Bean Counter*

      It used to be business casual and jeans on Fridays. Now jeans are okay everyday, but shirts still need to be in the business casual realm.

      1. LavaLamp*

        No one gives a care what you wear as long as your bits are covered, it’s not offensive and its safe for what your job is.

        My style is kind of a mix if gamer chick (today is jeans, tee shirt and converse) and corporate vampire/Abbie from NCIS.

    11. ThatGirl*

      My favorite: very casual. The dress code is basically “don’t wear shorts or anything you’d wear to the gym” – no sweats, running shoes, ratty t-shirts, etc. I can wear jeans all the time otherwise. (Some people do wear more “business casual” clothes and that’s fine.)

    12. Rat Racer*

      I work from home full time. Unusual for me to change out of my PJs. However, all client meetings are business formal. The only things I wear these days are Pajamas, workout clothes and suits.

    14. Rincat*

      Business casual with an emphasis on the casual. During the week, most people wear slacks, khakis, basic shirts, dark jeans, casual dresses. On fridays it gets more casual with plain t-shirts, more casual jeans and shoes. Pretty much everyone is in jeans on fridays. There’s one VP that wears a full suit no matter what, and I have no idea why. Our CIO doesn’t even wear suits unless he’s meeting with the university president or someone on that level. Also I’m in north Texas so we wear lots of sandals. Even in the winter. :)

    15. stitchinthyme*

      Totally casual. We’re a software development shop, so jeans and t-shirts are typical, and some people wear shorts and sandals in the summer. The only restrictions are the usual: no risque slogans or ripped clothing, that kind of thing.

    16. Kowalski! Options!*

      Technically, it’s business casual, but the Ministry is a rather large shop, so some sectors tend to be more formal than others. Most people who are in senior(-ish) positions go for more formal wear (two-piece suits for the gents, suits or dresses, with hose and dress shoes for the ladies). In our shop, it’s pretty laid-back, especially on Fridays (yours truly is wearing a Columbia mountaineering shirt – but it is button-down! – black capris, and black Sketchers). I think if you were dealing with suppliers and the public you’d want to be more formal, but I haven’t ever heard of anyone being sent home to change. There’s even a gal down in the IT department who comes to work dressed in full-on Goth gear (black lace fingerless gloves up to her elbows, knee-high Docs and black dresses), and no one is particularly bothered about it, from what I can tell.

    17. Naptime Enthusiast*

      In my department, jeans and polos are pretty standard and can be worn daily, but so are button downs, slacks, and dress shoes for men. I will wear either a polo and dress pants, or a nice top and skirt, with flats every day. I never know if I will be at my desk or visiting a manufacturer or talking to execs, so I dress decently but comfortably everyday. Your level of dress is pretty dependent on how customer-facing your role is, but unless you’re wearing something egregiously inappropriate, I’ve never seen a supervisor actually talk to someone about their clothing (there are some that wear t-shirts and new balance sneakers daily).

      Communications, on the other hand, has a strict dresscode since their employees are very customer-facing and representing the company at all times, so everything from footwear to skirt length to jackets is defined.

      1. JanetM*

        I really like your username. I have sometimes paraphrased Ben Franklin to say, “Naps are proof that the gods love us and want us to be happy.”

    18. Mrs. T. Potts*

      It’s business casual. I work in an academic library, and we want to look approachable to the younger students, so nobody really dresses up.

    19. CR*

      Casual business casual. The only people who dress up (suits, heels) are execs. I can get away with jeans any day of the week. It’s great.

    20. Emily S.*

      Business casual – no jeans or sneakers, ever. I often wear solid t-shirts under cardigans.
      I almost never wear button-downs like the guys in the office, who either wear polos or button-downs shirts.

    21. who?*

      Officially, my office is business casual. In practice I find it very casual. Fridays are jeans days (not “casual Friday”) but everyone treats it like casual Friday – jeans, tshirts, hoodies, sneakers, etc. Even during the rest of the week, many men wear sneakers with their khakis and polos/flannels. Yesterday a woman wore jeans, sneakers, and a college tshirt, which is pretty odd for a non-Friday. The higher ups tend to dress a bit more business-y, with slacks and button ups, sometimes polos. I am frequently the dressiest woman in the office, but I would still say I dress casually but try to look “polished.” I am able to cheat and wear colored jeans during the week, which I usually pair with nice blouses, cardigan or blazer, and dressy shoes. I don’t change much for Fridays except wearing regular jeans.

    22. Nervous Accountant*

      Business casual veering into super casual. We have people who are consistent (polo shirt & slacks or slaks & nice blouse). I wear everything–one day i’ll wear t shirt & leggings and flip flops, and heels & pencil skirt another day. Others are like that as well. During tax season, more of us will come in on the weekends wearing sweats/pjs lol. The only limit to the dress code is no ripped stuff and no shorts. Otherwise, everyone wears whatever.

      Funniest thing is that I wore a button down, pencil skirt & heels and a lot of ppl teased that I’m goin gon interview. (I wasn’t)

      1. Christmas Carol*

        I’ve said it before– if you maintain a reputation for dressing up on random days, it’s much easier to slip out of the office to testify before the grand jury, meet with the film crew from 60 Minutes, buy a Lamborghini, interview with the competition, or do anything else you don’t care explain

    23. Saviour Self*

      We are a fairly casual workplace as most of our employees are rarely, if ever, client-facing. Myself and a couple others do tend to dress a little more nicely (think skirt and nice top or a dress) but many wear jeans and a t-shirt.

    24. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      We’re fairly casual. Jeans/tshirts for non-management. Management might wear jeans, but with a nicer shirt. No one is dressier than business casual and that includes the CEO/CFO unless there is a board meeting.

    25. Snark*

      Picture, basically, the loosest possible interpretation of business casual, heavy emphasis on the casual. No shorts, jeans only on Fridays, but hiking pants or very casual cotton pants are pretty common all throug the week. Guys tend polo shirts, ventilated fishing shirts, whatever. Shoes might be hiking boots or very casual leather sneakers. The women generally polish it up better than the guys.

      I wear chukka boots, chino-type pants, and short- or long-sleeve button downs, and I’m usually one of the most polished guys in the office.

    26. aebhel*

      On the very casual end of business casual–no blue jeans, flip flops, tank tops, or short shorts, but pretty much everything else is fine. Khakis and slightly-dressy knit tops are what most of the women wear; I have large, visible tattoos, and it’s not an issue.

    27. Adlib*

      Officially it’s business casual, but it varies by office because of the wide variety of work my company does in different divisions. In my local office, jeans and tshirts are typical as well as flip flops. People are good about being tasteful, and I think we’re all over the age of 30 (except for some field personnel). It’s very nice to be able to wear what I’m in the mood to wear sometimes.

      That said, I’m about to travel to Australia to train some offices on software, and their dress code is likely different (actual business casual) so that will take some getting used to. I may have to shop for new clothes too!

    28. Recruiting/Project Manager*

      Officially it’s on the relaxed side of business casual M-Th, jeans on Friday. Unofficially, as long as I don’t look like shit on days I’m meeting with applicants or clients, I can wear whatever.

    29. Nonprofit Program Manager*

      It’s a wide range, with a lot of stratification between different levels and departments.

      Admins dress VERY casually. Like, t-shirts, worn jeans, and Tevas.
      Non-management program staff dress business casual. “Nice” jeans, blouses, blazers, etc.
      Senior management dress for their day, but typically the high end of business casual to business formal.

    30. a girl has no name*

      We are business casual Monday-Friday-even in the summer. For the last quarter of the year, if we donate money back to our organization than we are rewarded with jeans on Friday.

    31. NPOQueen*

      Summer is the same as all other seasons here. No different dress code, no casual wear. We have two office locations, and I’m lucky enough to work at the business casual one (our other is business professional, but on Fridays the men don’t have to wear ties). I’ve honestly never worked anywhere with casual Fridays; we can only dress down for special occasions, like summer outings.

    32. Jadelyn*

      We’ve gone to casual for our California offices, business casual for the Chicago office (they just tend to be far more uptight in general, for whatever reason – they actually *didn’t want* to join us in moving to casual dress code). Jeans are fine all the time, but need to be paired with a nicer top – no tshirts – and shoes – no tennis shoes or flip flops. In practice, those of us in the back office can get away with jeans and tshirts if the tshirts are plain and fit well.

    33. Cordelia*

      This post inspired me to look up our dress code, because I’ve never seen it – apparently there is no official dress code, and informally it’s “wear clothes”. In my building (or at least in my area), this is interpreted very casually. Several of the men on my team wear basically a uniform of polo, jeans, and sneakers. Some tend to be more business casual with slacks and a button up, but more casual is the norm. I’ve even seen t-shirts fairly regularly, and a couple of times shorts and flip-flops (but not from my department, I think that would probably be the line here). I’ve never seen my manager in anything dressier than a polo and khakis, even for giving a presentation. For me personally, I draw the line before t-shirts and flip-flops. I usually wear either jeans/nicer top/flats or a casual-ish dress. Oh and for the record, this is a large but not primary office of a federal agency.

    34. JanetM*

      Mine is very, very casual (but it varies by college and department).

      The CIO wears a suit (except on football Fridays when he wears a polo in university colors with the logo).

      The Associate CIO wears dress slacks, a buttoned shirt, and a tie (except on football Fridays when he wears a polo in university colors with the logo).

      Most but not all of the managers wear business casual more or less.

      Most of the non-managerial men wear jeans or shorts and polos or t-shirts.

      Most of the non-managerial women wear jeans or casual skirts and casual shirts or blouses. I generally wear ankle-length skirts and long blouses, and flats but not sneakers.

      Other departments are more formal, especially the business and law colleges — in those, almost everyone, including students, wears suits or dress pants / skirts with a blazer and a dress shirt with a tie or a business professional blouse.

      Custodians, maintenance workers, groundskeepers, and campus police wear uniforms.

      1. JanetM*

        I should note — when I say shorts, I mean like cargo shorts that come to the knees, not jogging shorts.

    35. Mirth & Merry*

      I work at a refinery and we are probably as casual as it comes. Our operators and maintenance techs are of course wearing PPE that they have no choice in but I (engineer) wear jeans and a t-shirt every day. Some of the more business side people (logistics, accounting, etc.) can pull out some more “business casual” dress but as long as you aren’t running around naked and are wearing the correct PPE in the unit it’s pretty much just whatever. I feel like sweatpants would probably be the only thing that was “too” casual and I have never seen that.

    36. RL*

      I work in a non-headquarters office of large financial company. No dress code here; we have a pretty small group (about 40 people in our location) and it varies. I’m a skinny jeans/flannel/flats or maxi skirt/t-shirt/sandals kind of dresser, but I have some colleagues who really dress up, and a few who do yoga pants or sports team shirts. No one ever looks like they just rolled out of bed, no one dresses inappropriately, but it really ranges from casual to the dressier end of business casual. I generally skip the jeans when I visit our HQ office; even though I have colleagues there who are perfectly comfortable dressing casually, I tend to dress a little better than I do at home if there’s a chance I could run into some VIPs. (No VIPs in my own office!)

    37. AdAgencyChick*

      Casual unless the clients are in, then we bump it up to business casual…maybe. I’ve seen jeans worn to client meetings lately, which was a no-no when I first started working. These days it often seems like the clients like wearing jeans when they come to see us, since they’re not allowed to wear them in their own workplaces, and they might feel more comfortable when at least one agency person in the meeting is dressed like they are.

    38. KR*

      Business casual company wide except for execs and big bosses. People tend to dress a lot nicer in our big skyscraper offices but I’m in a remote location so I usually wear jeans, non denim skinny jeans, or khakis with an appropriate, neat looking shirt. When my coworkers are out I wear shorts and t shirts to work with not a care in the world.

    39. Joan Callamezzo*

      Same as yours. We started out as business dress–think one step below banking or other formal business attire–but over the years this has gradually softened to business casual. Things like facial piercings, very visible tattoos (neck or face, full-sleeve etc.), creative facial hair and blue or pink hair are still not allowed.

    40. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Business Casual (but no sneakers or jeans). If someone is caught dressed Super Casual (Jeans and/or sneakers etc) they have to buy lunch for the whole department (which has happened a few times. LOL)

    41. Cookie D'Oh*

      Super casual. I’m not even sure what the employee handbook says about dress codes, but our headquarters is in a different state so no one is checking on us. I see a lot of jeans, t-shirts and flip flops in the summer. My boss mainly wears khakis and button down shirts. I wear casual dresses all the time in the summer. In the winter, boot cut dress pants and dresses with knee high boots.

      There’s another company that occupies some floors of the same building. When there was a fire drill, you could easily see the difference between the two. The other company was business casual and most people were smartly dressed and fashion forward.

    42. Fenchurch*

      We can wear jeans on Fridays (usually dependent on our company reaching certain goals for our semi-annual charity fund raisers). My area hit our goal unusually fast so we also get to wear jeans on Mondays until Labor day. We are not client-facing so technically we can wear jeans every day (but that’s not widely broadcast to help our company meet their charitable goals).

      Usually I’ll wear dresses or pencil skirts if I’m not in jeans, but the style of dress drastically varies across my immediate area.

    43. SQL*

      The University dress code: Employees should demonstrate good grooming. Clothing should be clean, neat, and in good repair.

      That’s it.

      My department has a slightly stricter dress code, no graphic t-shirts, sleeveless shirts, shorts, or open toed shoes, and jeans only on Fridays.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Ugh, the site cut off part of my comment and user name again.

        You can tell the professors, especially during summer- they’re the most casually dressed folks on campus.

    44. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed. During the summer, we don’t interact with students much. People tend to dress more casually, though our dress code is officially business casual. Casual Fridays are not a thing on my team. Yesterday we had a meeting to prepare for the fall and our director was very pointed about getting back to professional attire ASAP. Personally I know that my wardrobe needs updating– so that is one of my goals for this weekend! I am trying to move up in my office so I need to look polished and professional at all times.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Casual. As an academic department head, I skew towards more professional business especially for meetings outside my department or with outside entities. We have a written dress code for the department.
        No leggings as pants. Cover your a-.
        No tanks for any gender.
        No flip-flops.
        Shorts are okay if they are cargo length.

    45. mondegreen*

      Business casual when not public-facing; business semi-formal (suit separates or a dress and blazer) in hearings. Some technical staff wear jeans because that’s appropriate for their job duties, and some lawyers who’ve been there for a while have a slightly more relaxed personal style.

      This is the general counsel’s office at a government agency, by the way; I just finished a summer internship there, and I played it safe by following the lead of a couple women who dressed more conservatively than average.

      As I think I’ve mentioned before, I used to be a STEM grad student. The lab dress code is all about safety: closed-toe shoes, pants or a skirt below the knee, and no jewelry, hairdos, or sleeves that drape excessively. I’ve effectively changed wardrobes over the past two years, which means going to thrift stores. Right now, J. Crew/Ann Taylor type stores sell a lot of things that aren’t officewear; LK Bennett/Ted Baker type stores are nearly always out of my price range. But with patience and a lot of visits to Corporette, it’s possible.

    46. Lynn*

      Attorney for a large-ish Federal Agency in DC here. Officially, business attire everyday. Unofficially, we all find ways to make business a bit more casual and keep a blazer or suit on our offices in case of an impromptu meeting with Important People.

    47. MidwestRoads*

      Honestly, hard to say. One attorney wears golf shirts and khakis, one wears a suit and tie every day, one wears khakis and button-downs (no tie). The support staff (of which I am part of) tend to err on the dressier side of business casual.

    48. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

      Officially, we are business casual (sample text from handbook: “Acceptable: Casual Slacks, Pants, and Skirts; Unacceptable: Denim Blue Jeans, Cotton or Nylon Sweatpants, Athletic Attire, Shorts, Spandex or other Form-Fitting Pants”) with Casual Friday (“The dress code for Fridays may include well-kept jeans and athletic shoes. All clothing should be neat in appearance without tears or holes.”) In reality, we’ve gone a bit more casual, with well-kept jeans, some athleisure, well-kept t-shirts and some of the “unacceptable” footwear (hiking boots, casual sandals) appearing M-Th. There is a stated expectation of business attire for meetings with volunteers or external stakeholders, but an awful lot of those meetings have turned business casual, IME.

      Let’s just say that the documented dress code didn’t change when our new CEO (somebody my age instead of my dad’s) took over in 2014, but the atmosphere of the C-suite regarding what was and was not OK relaxed significantly.

    49. Canton*

      It’s supposed to be business casual Monday through Thursday, unless you’re meeting clients, in which case you dress professionally but most of the staff do not adhere to the policy, in which case our COO sends out emails saying you need to be dressing appropriately. Jeans on Fridays.

      I like to dress up (and will occasionally dress up on Fridays) but it’s still technically business casual because I’m not wearing suits.

    50. Louise*

      I’m currently sitting at work in yoga pants with my shoes off. Our dress code is “yes, please be dressed.”

    51. Accounting/HR*

      Dress code is all over the place…some people wear t-shirts and jeans, and other people dress up. We don’t really deal with the public that much. I usually dress up just because I have business casual attire. But I’ve seen one of our directors wearing sweat pants to work!

      When I worked for the feds it was business casual though jeans were permitted on Friday. I think that was just in my individual department, though. And we had several Public Health Service Commissioned Officers so they wore their uniforms every day, though they had various uniform types–some were more formal than others.

    52. PizzaDog*

      Business casual to casual casual – there’s no real dress code; on corporate visit days, we have to wear our brand, but that’s it.

    53. INeedANap*

      Staff in an academic department at a university:

      Summers, it’s casual-business-casual M-Thurs., Friday is a true causal-casual although no pajama bottoms or gym clothes. Although as long as you weren’t ratty looking, you could get away with jeans on a weekday if you had no meetings, no one really cares that much as long as you look neat and respectable.

      During the active school year, it’s true business-casual M-Thurs. (so a leeeetle bit more polished than the summer but still, no one is wearing a tie or anything like that (except that one guy who likes bow ties) or heels (unless you like them which I sometimes do for fun)). On Fridays you can wear jeans but it’s expected you wear a nice top or sweater and the jeans should not be distressed or oddly colored.

      Breaks during the school year (winter break, spring break) revert to summer rules.

    54. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Our dress policy is very much “whatever you want.” I have no problem with ratty tees or sweatpants… I usually wear some kind of dress or tunic, with or without leggings, sometimes with an open drapey cardigan over it. With ballet flats or sandals, depending on the weather (tho I do have a new pair of glitter platform sneakers that I’ve been wearing a lot!)

      I firmly believe that the way you dress has nothing to do with your abilities or skills. If you wanna be dressier, that’s fine! (we def have people who are voluntarily on the business-casual side just because that’s what they have and are used to/comfortable in.) I don’t believe there’s anything inherently unprofessional about short skirts, sweatpants, tshirts with teams on them, etc. I get if you can’t wear those because your work won’t let you, but I urge people to not think of people wearing, say, shorts as prima facie unprofessional.

    55. Quinalla*

      We just recently changed from Business casual with jeans on Friday, to jeans allowed all the time and dress to the same level as clients when meeting them. If a client is business casual, dress that way, if they are suit & tie, same deal, if you are going to a construction site, wear safe clothing you don’t mind getting dirty that is inoffensive. My last place changed the dress code to this too as the majority of employees are behind a computer most of the time with some client meetings and some site visits mixed in, so no need to dress up every day.

    56. Jubilance*

      My company went casual about 2yrs ago, we were business casual before that. I work for a retailer with an apparel component, so some depts are more fashionable than others. Most people wear jeans. I’ve seen a lot of cold shoulder tops on women this summer.

    57. Lala*

      Ours is what I call “student casual” b/c we’re peons at a university (no one sees us unless we’re just walking around on campus to go somewhere). Basically as long as it’s not pajamas and your bits are covered, you’re good to go. Shorts, cold shoulder cutouts, leggings (w/ butt covered) etc. are all fine. Exception being when higher-up admins are going to be around or if you’re on a hiring committee conducting in-person interviews in which case my boss often says “I hate telling people how to dress, but let’s go more business casual that day, please”, but that’s maybe 4 days out of the year. A lot of the time people dress up just because they feel like it on a given day (or in my case, because they woke up late and grabbing a dress is faster than finding a matching bottom/top).

    58. Administrative Assistant*

      Our dress code is super weird, lol. I am currently wearing a rather nice wrap dress and heels, and under my desk I have jeans, tee-shirts, steel-toed boots, and a hard hat. My boss wears jeans with polos or button ups unless he’s expecting to meet clients, and then he wears slacks and button ups. On Fridays he wears sports team shirts, but they aren’t tee shirts. Everyone else wears jeans and tee shirts which aren’t supposed to say anything unless it’s the company name, but no one follows that rule, and everyone wears reflective safety vests when on the job anyway, so no one can see their shirt. (We are not allowed to wear anything sleeveless, and near as I can tell that’s the only other rule)

      If I’m feeling particularly daring, on Fridays I wear my “Do these protons make my mass look big” shirt.

    59. Lora*

      We should have clothes on. If we work with chemicals or heavy things, we have to wear pants, lab coats, closed-toed shoes (preferably steel toes) and safety glasses.

      In practice most people wear jeans or khakis and some sort of non-tee-shirt top. Senior management will occasionally wear a blazer/sportcoat sort of thing, but more often not. A perpetually tired look on your face is mandatory, though.

      I’m sorta middle management so today’s ensemble is dark jeans with no holes, a nice blouse, a cardigan with ruffles on it. If I was wearing nice pants instead of jeans you’d call it Business Casual.

    60. Anon 12*

      I came from a tech company that devolved over the years to presentable so that even as an exec that could mean jeans and a shirt without wrinkles. Nobody ever batted an eye. Now I’m in a client facing company and it’s officially business wear with casual Friday (if you don’t have a client meeting) but no tennis shoes. I find it odd that somehow leggings are tolerated when my go to if I had a choice would be dressy jeans, heels and a nice blouse. That is not in the Mon – Thurs dress code but leggings get a pass?

    61. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      Business formal-ish? The men all wear suits, or suits minus the blazer, every day except the last friday of the month, when we can donate to the monthly cause and wear jeans.

      Women’s styles are more varied. No jeans or yoga pants, but a lot of slacks/trousers and a simple shirt (never t-shirts). One or two women wear dresses and heels every day, or a full suit with skirt or pants (one is a teapot maker, one is admin). Some of the admin wear dark pants and sweaters every day. Open toed sandals are okay. I generally wear pants, a tank top/patterned sleeveless shirt/nice short sleeved shirt (my bust won’t do button downs) + a cardigan since I have 6 tattoos on my arms.

      The guys have it really easy when it comes to getting dressed in the morning.

    63. Elizabeth West*

      OldExjob was business casual, which bugged people because nobody saw us unless corporate was visiting or we had guests, and we always had plenty of warning. Exjob was jeans and t-shirts–we weren’t supposed to wear graphic tees except for the company ones, but everybody did it anyway. I got spoiled. :) We had to dress up if clients were in the office, but most people just worked from home those days.

    65. Witty Nickname*

      My office is very casual. Jeans, shorts, flip flops, tank tops, cold shoulder tops, whatever. Some departments used to enforce a more strict dress code, but I don’t think any do anymore.

      We have people all over the place on their personal dress code though. It’s not out of place to see people in button-down shirts and slacks, dresses, etc. (Suits are rare, but do happen), as well as people in t-shirts, shorts & flip-flops. Nobody cares as long as good work is being done.

    66. rj*

      I am a professor, and I think part of the problem with professors is that we think “oh my ideas are so important no one cares what I wear.” At my previous place of work (small college, rural midwest), people sometimes wore clothes that were worn. For opening/closing ceremonies when we wore robes, people wore birkenstocks. (shakes head). Was on leave at a small college in central PA – the male profs wore suits, women wore dresses or dress pants, staff were business or business casual (button downs not polos, lots of dresses and dress pants for women) depending on the type of job. I now work in the southeast, and I’m trying to figure out what the culture is here. I have noticed no women (even assistants in dean’s office type of places) were pantyhose, so that’s a relief (the dean or provost might wear them). My personal code is dresses and cardigans, or tank top/jeans/cardigan on Fridays, with flats or decent sandals. If I give a talk of something I wear a nicer dress and a blazer. I have noticed people here wear heels more. I may up my shoe game to be more formal but heels are not my thing.

    67. Ramona Flowers*

      Non-profit. Casual but presentable.

      Fine: jeans, flip-flops, blue/green/pink/etc hair, piercings, visible tattoos.

      Not fine: anything sweary or overly revealing. And probably not sweatpants and hoodie, as that would be a touch too casual even for us.

      When I interviewed, one of the panel had purple hair and a leopard-print cardigan, and my grandboss was in jeans and a lumberjack shirt (not sure if that term translates – I mean the flannel check ones) while I had one of my tattoos showing.

      Some people choose to wear suits as I guess they like to? My go-to is skinny jeans, ballet pumps and a funky print blouse.

    68. excel_fangrrrl*

      i work at an IT company. the official company-wide policy is business for client-facing sales, business casual for everyone else. in my area and on my team, it’s no holes/rips, no tank tops, no shorts, no swear words on your shirt. tattoos, piercing, and/or crazy colored hair are damn near mandatory. my manager specifically forbids flip-slops. other than that? anything goes.

    69. Chaordic One*

      My current workplace is business casual. Most of us wear nice blouses and dressy pants. The men wear polos and dockers. A few of the younger admins wear tank tops (with bras on underneath) and capri-style pants in the summer. On Fridays people can wear bluejeans. Most of us wear nice ones, but there are always a few who wear really faded and ill-fitting things (too tight) that are not a bit appropriate (IMHO). The big boss ALWAYS wears suits.

    72. This Daydreamer*

      Fairly sure we have to keep the naughty bits covered and I don’t think we’d be allowed to wear anything advocating violence. I have an overnight shift and can even try to sleep through part of it, so we’re pretty much expected to be in pajamas at times. It’s nice. I actually wear a dress usually and always have jewelry on – I’m a bead freak and love showing off – but it’s nice to kick off my shoes and walk around barefoot.

    73. only acting normal*

      Not naked.
      (Maybe that’s what the stick-figure clip art “dress code” handout was trying to convey?)
      People dress the full gambit from 3-piece suits and high polish shoes to shorts, t-shirt and flipflops all in the same office. Most fall somewhere around business casual. I’m a knitted dress kind of girl, worn with boots or lace-up flats or mary-janes, never heels.

    74. JD*

      I banned capris in my office. There are about 2 women on the Planet with the body for them. I think they just are so tacky I won’t allow it. Our dress code is men in jeans and button downs usually, except my mechanics obviously and for women professional with a trendy emphasis. I wouldn’t be so cool with them wearing jeans like the men but in this industry the women are kind of supposed to look “pretty/hot” whatever you want to call it. I am sure that is not something that people like to hear but it is how the automotive industry is for women in general since the clients are almost all men. I mean we have flag girls. I don’t allow our flag girls to be dressed slutty though like many teams do. None of this spandex booty short business many other teams do. It would be out of place to be in a suit or something that professional. We can have some fun due to our industry. I like dressing up however and despise jeans. I find them so uncomfortable. I don’t know why people think they are so comfy. Baffles my mind haha.

  4. jebly*

    Crazy week! I have been in a job I’ve disliked the better part of a year. I knew day 1 it wasn’t going to work and have been casually job hunting. I was offered and accepted a job yesterday! I negotiated salary (a first!) and while they didn’t budge on the starting rate, I was able to work in two reevaluations at 3 and 6 months, something I was sure to get in writing! Thanks AAM community for allowing me to learn from your mistakes. This wouldn’t have been possible without you!

    The stress I’m having now is how I relayed the news to my boss, the office manager. I was trying to rush negotiations along for a couple of reasons. 1. My boss was leaving for a week long vacation, removing the possibilty of an in person resignation, 2. I needed to only give 1 week notice rather than 2 (this has to do with how much my PTO is accrued and granted. I need next Friday off for a wedding, putting me over what’s accrued, and I wouldn’t be able to earn back that time in another week. I didn’t want to owe my old company money, so it financially made more sense to only put in a week. Additionally, my new boss is leaving for maternity leave in about 2 months and they need me trained on ASAP).

    My boss ended up heading out about 10 minutes before I had my official start date but after I had in writing my signed formal acceptance. I had to tell her on her way out. It was rushed and messy and I feel guilty. This job has been awful, I’ve been constantly disrespected if not largely ignored and I really owe them nothing. They cannot give references, but I just feel like a jerk. I told her I’d update her via email with my official start date, but I couldn’t guarantee it would be a full 2 weeks of notice. Now, she’ll be out of the office while I wrap up and leave. As soon as I knew I sent her an email with my official resignation. I apologized about the timing and told her I’d be in touch with any loose ends throughout the week.

    So here’s my question: I don’t think I’ll be able to give an exit interview since she’ll be out, but there are some things I’d like to say about my time here. Most of them are focused on the disrespect and pettiness of her administrative staff, their obsession with how people conduct themselves in the bathroom (they time how long people spend washing their hands and bring it up in all staff meetings… seriously), her flippant use of the ‘R’ word when two of our attorneys have special needs children, my 5 minute annual review where she told me I had a couple typos on inconsequential, internal emails and said nothing else, the fact that I have been ignored and given NO WORK FOR 10 MONTHS. Is it worth it? Or is it petty? Should I just move on?

    1. NW Mossy*

      I’d say move on. It seems like much of what’s happening is in full view/known to your manager and she hasn’t taken action, the likelihood that an exit interview will be the catalyst for positive changes is small. At this point, you’ve got a new path to follow elsewhere, and that’s a darn good result. Take it and enjoy it!

    3. King Friday XIII*

      Those don’t seem like the sorts of things an exit interview will change, so I agree with the folks about. Call on your inner Elsa and let it go.

    4. SophieChotek*

      I agree with other, move on. It might be satisfying to say what you really think, but it sounds like they won’t be receptive and even though you do have another job lined up, you could still want this place as a reference down the road, so (especially if there is no formal exit interview in place that has a natural way for you to offer some feedback), offering your advice unsolicited could hurt the way they remember you on your way out.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I’d say move on. It sounds unlikely that mentioning those things would change things, and I think if you were to send a letter or e-mail it could very easily come over as quite petty. If your boss, or HR or boss’s boss ask you, then by all means let them know, but otherwise, I think it’s better to leave it.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Move on. You have nothing to gain by airing your grievances while you still work there. In a few months after you’ve had time to decompress, write a Glassdoor review and warn others away from this terrible place!

    7. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Unless you can speak to specific times that your boss was
      -hostile (legal sense of not giving you work or excluding you from projects because of age, race, gender, religion or having different expectations because of same)
      -ineffective because you weren’t given software, hardware or instructions to do your work
      -unwilling to follow through on promises regarding raises, promotions or projects that you had in writing
      then you have to be careful just to protect yourself.
      You can say that your boss didn’t give you work and wouldn’t tell you why and that you were afraid of retaliation because historically, she would do X and Y to people who went to HR.
      You really can’t say that she let meeting drift into b!+ch sessions about pet peeves and it was annoying.

    8. jebly*

      This is all great. I felt myself growing frustrated because I had nothing to do and the people around here are insane and whiney, but legally nothing was awry. I just hated working here. I was erring on the side of letting it go and will follow everyone’s advice here. Nothing will change. I’ve been here less than a year, others have been here for decades (hence the dysfunction). I’m just going to slip away quietly.

      1. jebly*

        By the way, no one is surprised I’m leaving. I was overqualified for the role and they ended up not having enough work to give me anyway. I grew bored and resentful, so sometimes my emotions about it got the best of me. The added frustrations about the staff here compounded that. It’s a nice pipe dream to exit, middle fingers in the air, telling people what you really think, but ultimately it’s purposeless.

        Side note, they cannot give me a reference, so that really doesn’t make a difference to me. It was more of the relief of airing grievences. Ah well!

        1. Not a Morning Person*

          Can you share why they “can’t” give a reference? That sounds unusual, unless you mean they won’t reveal anything but confirmation of employment, or title and salary, or something like that.

          1. jebly*

            They can only confirm employment, title, salary. It’s in my employee handbook – no references. I thought it was odd too, but since I’ve done nothing impactful here and have plenty of other references, it’s really not a big deal.
            I have a friend who works more in depth in the industry and says it’s pretty typical.

      2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Since you are able to leave, in a very short time you will be able to look back and realize that some places just suck and those people are ridiculous. They will be funny stories you tell over drinks.

    9. Happy Lurker*

      Congratulations! and move on…you know they are not going to change, be happy you are escaping!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Small consolation but if you tried to fix it, you’d find that you can’t fix it. On stuff like this I tell myself, “Check back in 20 years, they will still be doing the same thing and wondering why they don’t get different results.”
      It’s not fixable.

  5. Doug Judy*

    I’ve been in talks for several months with a boutique consulting firm about a potential position, and it seems like they will be looking to bring me on board soon. I participated in a two day event they held for potential clients this week, mainly as an observer, but also so they could see how I operate in that environment. I’m meeting with the owner for coffee in a few weeks, and while nothing is a given, I’m getting the feeling an offer is imminent.

    In the course of setting up this meeting, we discovered we are neighbors, as in living down the street from each other. It’s a small suburban area, so not like a large urban area where you have hundreds of neighbors. We actually met briefly at a party years ago and have walked past each others homes numerous times.

    Is it bad to live that close to your boss???

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      My first boss lived in the condo right above me for about 10 months (I bought a house and moved) It was a little awkward for me to run into him I think just because “omg my boss, act professional” and it was my first job so I was still learning about these kinds of things but he never seemed weird or tried to make power plays and truthfully we rarely crossed paths. A few times in the parking lot and sometimes we’d sit our decks at the same time but it did not affect my day to day life. Barring either of you throwing crazy drunken ragers, I think things will be fine!

    3. NW Mossy*

      I live just a couple of doors down from my husband’s boss – he’s actually the one that told us about the house when it came up for sale 6 years ago. It’s working out just fine – he’s very non-intrusive and in fact spends a good portion of his time visiting his elderly father out of state, so we’re not very much in each other’s business.

      It really depends a lot on the relationship you have with the boss and the boss’s personality. In our case, we’d known him for a few years before we moved in and felt quite assured that it wouldn’t be awkward. It’s a bit trickier in your case since you don’t have a pre-existing relationship to work from, but it certainly can work and be a non-issue.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I think it will be ok. We can’t see each other’s homes from ours and we haven’t really crossed paths before, so I think we can maintain some boundaries. It was just kinda weird to discover!

    4. Demon Llama*

      An old colleague of mine discovered during an internal move that her new manager lived on the same street, to the point where she realised that, technically, she could see into her manager’s front room from the street as she walked home and vice versa. That did freak her out a bit until we worked through situations where it could actually be an issue:
      1. If she were in the habit of lying about being sick / otherwise being at home when work expected her to be elsewhere
      2. If she would be tempted to snoop on her manager’s personal life
      3. If she felt her manager would be the kind of person to snoop on her personal life
      4. How she would cope if she ran into her manager on the weekend
      As she doesn’t do 1 or 2, didn’t get any red-flag vibes from her manager re: 3 and decided she could cope with 4, she decided it wouldn’t be an issue… and it wasn’t!

    5. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      I live two doors down from my grandboss. He apparently knew it was me when I interviewed (I had no idea).
      I’ve been an amazing neighbor, which I imagine helped with me getting the job somewhat. As in I had a load of packages arrive, which were delivered to them as I wasn’t in. I got them a thank you card and some chocolates to thank them for signing them. As well as general other ‘good neighbour stuff’ I just happen to have only spoken to his wife and not him.

      We normally just make polite small talk if we see each other outside of work. In work we sometimes chat about our area (and our annoying mutual neighbour!)!

    6. Kat*

      I have been worrying about this as well. I just started a new job and found out that my boss’s boss lives just a couple of blocks from me and in fact I know her child from some volunteering I did at the neighborhood elementary school . Everyone seems great and I’m sure it will be fine but it just feels weird. We’ll definitely run into each other at events and I will have to be even more careful about what I post on NextDoor, etc. We moved a while back from a huge metro area to this medium-sized city and it’s still disconcerting how it sometimes feels like Mayberry!

    7. nonymous*

      I lived two blocks from my boss for 5 years and saw him once in all of that. Given we had two dogs and an unfenced yard at the time, I’m pretty sure I walked by his house ~3x/week and he possibly drove by daily on his way to work. We never talked about the neighborhood at work either.

  6. Elle*

    To continue the benefits question from yesterday’s post, are there any US readers who are able to “buy” additional vacation time? I’ve had a few employees inquire about it, so I wanted to see how prevalent it is. What limits do you have? (i.e. how much can you buy?) Any other guidelines attached to it?

    1. Triangle Pose*

      “Buy” vacation time? Do you mean than taking off unpaid or something different? I don’t think I’ve seen a “buy” vacation time system before. Interesting…

    2. NW Mossy*

      My company used to offer it – we had the option to buy up to 40 hours of additional PTO. I miss that program dearly! When it was active, they’d deduct a set amount from your paychecks (based on your salary) in the first 6 months of the year and then the week became available in the second 6. However, it went poof a few years back because of the administrative burden it put on HR/payroll to manage the program.

      1. Compliance*

        I’m confused on how this works… you pay in advance, then you have a paid day to use? Is it the equivalent of an unpaid day?

        1. NW Mossy*

          It nets out to an unpaid day in this case because that’s how the program was designed, but other companies might do it differently. In my company, unpaid days require additional approvals beyond what’s normally required for PTO and are only available in specific situations, so doing the buy-up of PTO would allow you to avoid the extra approval and give you the freedom to use the time for reasons that wouldn’t qualify for unpaid leave.

      2. TheCupcakeCounter*

        old job had the same thing – I did it my first year to get me up to the 2 full weeks PTO

    3. Anon-mama*

      My husband can. They allow for purchase of up to 40 hours; they figure out their hourly rate from their salary and charge per hour taken. So, it’s essentially like taking an extra time unpaid. They already have generous leave plus an end-of-December shutdown, so we don’t use it, but some of his colleagues like the option.

    4. Ms. Meow*

      I can purchase vacation in my current job. We can buy up to 40 hours a year (on top of our regular days), but it’s implemented in a weird way. If we buy vacation, those days can only be used after all other vacation (regular and carry-over) days have been used. And if we don’t use them, we lose them, and we can’t even carry over regular days that weren’t used. The other option is that we can sell back unused bought vacation days in November. You really have to plan out your vacation around Thanksgiving and Christmas carefully so you don’t come up short or have days you lose.

      So say I get 15 regular vacation days and buy 5 more. I can take all 20 days. Or I can take 18 days, but make sure to sell back 2 purchased days in November. Or I can take 14 days, sell back 5 purchased days, and have 1 carry over.

      Honestly, I buy the days for ~just in case~ situations. This year I’ll be able to sell the ones I bought back if things go as planned.

    5. LCL*

      I suppose that’s what comp time is. Government agencies are allowed to do comp, I believe it isn’t allowed for the rest of the US. Employees can choose to have 50 hours a year of OT changed to comp time, which they use later.

      1. Natalie*

        Comp time is perfectly allowable for any company – you just can’t offer it in lieu of overtime pay for non-exempt employees.

    6. vacay buy*

      I work for a very large company that does this. The prior year, there is an enrollment period (similar to benefits open enrollment). You can buy one additional week – no more, no less. You get a 2% pay reduction over the course of the year in which you get the extra vacation. Due to what I think are IRS rules, if you don’t use a portion of the additional week, whatever you didn’t use is cashed out at the end of the year. Your regular vacation time is used up prior to the “buy” days. It’s a very popular program and ultimately a cost savings for the company (since it’s not like we backfill or hire up for the additional time).

    8. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      We used to be able to buy up to an extra week at my old company (large financial services firm). The way it worked was you enrolled at annual insurance enrollment time to buy whatever amount of extra hours you wanted, up to 40 (this piece was appended to the annual enrollment form). The purchase was a 60% of normal rate, and they took that extra out of each paycheck. If you didn’t use all of your extra bought vacation above and beyond your standard, you were cut a check back (through payroll/direct deposit) sometime in December. I always bought it for “just in case” reasons and I pretty much always got a check back.

    9. Saviour Self*

      Those sorts of programs are ripe with issues from a management and anti-discrimination standpoint. If you’re going to do one, go forward carefully.

      1. vacay buy*

        Can you elaborate on this? Just curious what issues you’ve seen. At our company it’s open to all, and people have different amounts of vacation anyway due to different tenures with the company, so I don’t think it’s been an issue.

        1. LCL*

          Some work groups may not be allowed to accumulate comp time, it is at the managers’ discretion. If it is allowed for some people in one work group and not others in the group-big problems.

          Is comp time leave subject to the same vacation scheduling rules as regular vacation? What if Random has 40 hours of comp leave scheduled, but Brand just realized he is at use it or lose it with his vacation hours, and the workgroup can’t allow any more vacation that week? Can Brand bump Random out of his leave?

          What about the employee who is denied vacation, then tries to schedule it as comp and claims you have to allow comp time leave?

          If you are having trouble filling out your schedule, and denying leave because of personnel absences, how is adding 50 or 100 more additional hours leave to each employee helping? My company had to renegotiate comp time, the first iteration allowed too much accrual and was hurting some groups.

          1. Elle*

            I’m not talking about comp time though. What people are asking for is the ability to purchase an additional week of vacation.

            1. Saviour Self*

              What LCL said is still valid as far as concerns go, simply replace comp time with purchased vacation.

              If you leave it up to the individual managers to grant, you’ll want to monitor to make sure they aren’t discriminating (even unintentionally).

              Will workloads and coverage allow for people to be out the additional time?

              What if purchasing the additional time takes someone below minimum wage – are they not eligible to purchase at all? Does that make them a certain group of employees or a certain demographic?

              I’m not saying it isn’t doable. It definitely is but it requires a lot of training and monitoring and potentially exposes you to additional liability concerns.

    10. Over educated*

      No but I would absolutely do this if I had the option. At my last workplace you could request “leave without pay,” which I did occasionally because my manager was fine with it but other managers discouraged.

    11. Gaia*

      We are allowed to either buy or sell up to 7 days of vacation time a year. Selling is good because you can only roll over so much each year and buying is sort of a way to prepay yourself if you know you won’t have enough vacation time to take a trip you want to take (we don’t permit unpaid time off unless it is for leave, but we have generous PTO policies)

      1. Gaia*

        Ours seems very different than the above. You decide in August if you want extra time for the same year (to be used by December) and it is deducted, in full, a month later (late September). If you don’t use it, it rolls over just like other PTO.

    12. NacSacJack*

      Hi – I might just post in yesterday’s article for others to reference but I thought it was great to do that. I knew
      I worked for a company with great benefits, but comparatively, wow!! How great!!

      As for PTO, yes, we can buy up to 5 days vacation, prorated across our paychecks for the year. However, it comes with some strings. We must use up all our awarded vacation first, including any carryover, before we can use our purchased PTO. We can sell our purchased PTO back to the company, but we have to make that decision in early November during Benefits signup. If we chose not to sell back, then we must use up all our vacation including our purchased vacation by year-end, we cannot carry over any vacation if we have unused unsold purchased PTO. If we don’t use it up, we lose whatever is left. Note: We can carry over 5 days, but to do so, we cannot have any purchased PTO. Purchased PTO cannot be carried over and you have to use it or sell it before carrying any over and since you can’t use it until all your other days are gone, you have to sell it, if you want to carry any awarded days over. I got caught in a bind at year-end one year unable to use 3 days awarded PTO and 3 days purchased and lost 3 days. I didnt buy vacation for a couple years after that because of that incident..

    13. Annie Admin*

      We can “buy” 40 hours extra vacation each year. They deduct a set amount from each paycheck to cover and you can only use those hours after all regular vacation has been used. If you do not use all or some of those bought hours you get refunded the amount at the end of the year. A lot of people buy vacation as a savings of sorts and look at the unused payback as a bonus at the end of the year.

    14. Cookie D'Oh*

      Yes, my husband is able to buy vacation time. It’s an option when he signs up for benefits for the following year. He can buy up to 5 days. He used to do it so he would get 5 weeks total vacation. I don’t recall how much it costs, but it was worth it for us. I had 7 weeks and now have unlimited PTO so having around the same amount of vacation helps when we want to travel. With his last service anniversary he got 5 weeks vacation and now he’s not eligible to buy any more.

    15. Homes*

      Like others have said, we can sign up for the program during our annual benefits enrollment period. We can buy up to 48 hours (this ensures that folks who work 9/80s (44 hours one week and 36 hours the next) can take a full week off) in one-hour increments. It is taken from your paycheck in even increments over the entire year (I believe – I’ve never looked hard into that portion of it). All allotted and carryover vacation must be used before using the purchased time. We have to have all of our vacation for the entire year entered by the first week of December so HR/payroll can determine how much we should be reimbursed for unused purchased vacation. If, in those last 3 weeks you have to take more time off than you budgeted for (and if you have no allotted/carryover vacation left), that extra time off is unpaid and at the discretion of your manager. Not sure how it works if you leave mid-year but have already taken more purchased vacation than you’ve paid for via paycheck deductions. Maybe your last paycheck is garnished by the difference?

      I take advantage of it every year. When I was a newbie with just 2 weeks of vacation and living far from family, it was a god-send! Now that I have four weeks (and generally carryover four weeks) and the ability to work remotely, I never use it, but I like knowing I have it in case of emergencies. Plus it’s always nice to have an extra week’s worth of pay in my last paycheck for the year – helps cover the Christmas bills.

    16. ToodieCat*

      My employer has a favorite charity, and if we make X contribution we can get one extra day of PTO, and if we make Y contribution we can get two extra days. I always donate Y.

    17. Hermione Lovegood*

      We also have the option to “purchase” up to 40 hours of vacation during open enrollment. The hourly amount is deducted from each paycheck (twice-monthly). The standard vacation allotment is 120 hours up to 10 years of service. At 10 years, and every 5 after, you receive another 24 hours of vacation. In “5” years (5, 10, 15, etc.), you receive 40 hours of “recognition” vacation to honor your anniversary. In those “5” years, you may also purchase up to 80 hours of vacation instead of the standard 40.

      In addition, we are also given the option during open enrollment to “sell” up to 40 hours of vacation back to the company. They will use the same calculation for the “purchase,” but the sale money can only be applied toward benefits. If your benefits are not through the company, you get no additional cash in your check.

      Vacation time does not carry over, nor is it paid out at the end of the year. If you don’t use it, you lose it! Planning is critical! :)

    18. Jake*

      Yep.

      We can buy one week per year. If you buy any vacation you are not allowed to care any over to the following year. If you don’t buy any, you can carry up to one week over to the following year.

      I’ve also worked for a company that allowed you to buy a week and carry over as much as you want regardless of whether you bought any or not. This was a huge liability on their books because a lot of us would buy as much time off as allowable, and take almost none of it. Then, if we left the company, that time all got paid out when we left.

      I left that company after 2.5 years with 5.5 weeks of PTO they had to pay out.

      So, in terms of prominence, of the three companies I’ve worked for in the last 6 years, two allowed it, one with almost no restrictions, one with major restrictions.

    20. excel_fangrrrl*

      we can buy one additional week a year with our manager’s approval. it is vacation time, not sick time, so it will not roll over if you don’t use it. the entire 40 hours goes into your PTO bank immediately and then a small amount of money comes out of each check throughout the year.

    21. Gerenuk*

      This is a little different than buying vacation time, but my company has a program where you can take 80% of your salary for 4 years, and then take a year off with pay (still at 80%), with your job held for you when you come back. Basically you’re spreading four years of income over 5 years but I think its pretty cool that can take a year leave and know your job is waiting for you. I don’t actually know anyone who’s taken advantage of this program though.

  7. Elsa*

    For those who work ‘standard’ office hours, what’s your morning routine like? How long do you take getting ready in the morning? How early/late do you usually get up to fit in everything you need to get done before work?

    (I feel like I’d like be more efficient in the mornings…)

    1. Justme*

      I get myself and my kid ready. I wake up early to have some quiet time, but I don’t really get ready until after kid is awake. So 45 minutes?

    2. Kiki*

      I have a long morning routine. I wake up around 6 am but don’t leave the house till 8 am. I get in a quick run, shower, and do my hair and makeup. Then I make toast and coffee, have a quick breakfast with my husband, and read a chapter of whatever book I’m working on. After that, I get dressed and head out.

      2. who?*

        Where do you run? When I first got my dog I took her running every morning because she was high energy. We got her in the winter and then once spring came and all the trees started growing leaves, I didn’t feel comfortable running in the dark surrounded by lots of trees I could no longer see through/past. I really enjoyed that routine but I always freaked myself out running in the dark (I read/listen to/watch a lot of true crime stuff). Luckily she’s calmed down quite a bit and we can run in the evenings after work when it’s still light out.

        1. Kiki*

          I run on my street. I live right near a major intersection and it’s 1 mile from that intersection to the next major one, so I run between the two.

    3. Anonygoose*

      I usually wake up around 5:30 – 6:00 to start work at 8:00. I wake up, sometimes shower (usually I shower the night before), make coffee and oatmeal, and eat casually while reading or watching tv for 30-45 minutes. Then I get dressed quickly, throw on mascara, and it’s a 10-20 minute drive to work.

    4. NW Mossy*

      I get up at 5:25 and am normally out the door 25-30 minutes later to start work at 6:30am. My morning routine is very stripped down – shower, brush teeth and hair, dress, pack lunch, and I’m gone. I don’t like getting up early but my evenings go way better when I can leave the office at 3:30pm, so this is my compromise.

      1. Ally A*

        I’m about the same (wake up at 5:30, leave house by 6:15, at work by 6:30). I don’t do anything in the morning besides get ready (shower, get dressed, hair/makeup). I wake up, make my bed and immediately get in the shower and get ready. I know people who like to be up for an hour or two before they get ready, read the paper, watch the news, have breakfast, etc., and I just don’t understand it – I guess I want to sleep as long as possible. I do live alone however, with no pets, so I’m sure that helps.

      2. JustaCPA*

        this. I leave for work by 7 AM so I try to be up by 6:30-6:40. I shower or bathe the night before though.. so up, brush teeth, potty, dress, get lunch, grab breakfast to go (usually a yogurt or melon Ive balled the night before) I dont like to eat so early so that work for me…

        1. JustaCPA*

          oh and my husband handles morning kid duties. I’m home (usually ) by 5 so I take care of afternoon kid duties

    5. EddieSherbert*

      I’m awful. I literally get up 20-30 minutes before I have to be out the door. I’ve learned I have to do basically everything the night before because I will NOT get up earlier.

      So the evenings is when I shower, pick out my clothes, pack my lunch (and maybe breakfast…), and make sure whatever I need is packed and ready to go (usually my laptop/charger). I typically eat breakfast at work and have food to make or eat there (like a loaf of bread and jar of jam for toast… or sometimes just a package of granola bars… I usually a carton of juice in the work fridge…).

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        My routine is similar, except I take a walk with my neighbor in the morning, which takes 20-30 minutes. But I only have to get dressed in the morning and comb my hair. The rest is done the night before or, like you, eating breakfast at work.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          I got a dog awhile ago, and assumed he’d add morning exercise to the routine… he likes mornings even less than me! I have to force him to get up to eat/go relieve himself before I leave. He is not a morning critter at all (too perfect of a match…).

          1. A.N.O.N.*

            Awww that’s adorable! :)

            It seems my fiendish cats want nothing more in life than to lay on my chest and lick my nose an hour or two before I want to get up. I’ve tried everything to get them to let me sleep, but at this point I’ve just grown accustomed to waking up earlier and staying in bed with them.

            Oh the things we do for love…

          2. Elizabeth West*

            When I had Pig, the first thing I had to do was feed her. She could hear me go into the bathroom from outside (and we had a routine), and she would start meowing. I would put my contacts in and then go take care of her.

          3. Monsters of Men*

            Oh man. Getting my corgi out of bed is a trial and a half. First he has to stretch EVERY limb of his body, then he has to do a full body stretch, and then he needs some snuggles. Then he wants his teeth brushed (my mom did this to him) — THEN he goes pee, but he goes and sniffs each corner of the yard and fence before he does his business. Then more cuddles, then breakfast, and then he lounges around.

            He takes way longer than I do, but I work evenings.

    6. Cactus*

      29/yo Woman in IT field, no kids. It takes me maybe 15 minutes max to get ready in the morning if I’ve packed my lunch the night before. I wear black pants, black cardigan, and change out shirt every day so I don’t really need to think about my wardrobe. I also shower the night before so my hair product has a chance to calm my curls.

      1. Kvothe*

        Also a 29/yo woman with no kids (engineer) and it also takes me about 15 min to get ready, I usually have my coffee and eat breakfast at work while reading emails or reviewing drawings or such….I’m really not a morning person

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Derail, apology, but: Love the user name. Patrick Rothfuss is driving me CRAZY. Kingkiller is my reason #3 why not to start a series until it’s finished.

    7. Fabulous*

      I’ve been giving myself about an hour in the morning. Shower at night, or if I do it in the morning I’ll try to give an extra 15-20 minutes. After letting the dog out, I generally lay back in bed for 30 minutes looking at articles or something to wake up more. Getting myself ready usually takes about 15 minutes. I’ll try to throw together a lunch if I didn’t the night before. I aim to give myself 30 minutes for my commute, but usually end up around 20-25 minutes and I get there right at 8:30 instead of a few mins early.

    8. Pam Beasley*

      I get up at 6:00 AM, and leave by 7:15 (have to be at the office at 7:30). I usually preset my coffee maker the night before (ninja coffee bar…it’s awesome!) to start brewing at 6:00 AM so it’s ready just after I get up. I usually turn on the news, eat a bowl of cereal, and have my coffee on the couch until about 6:20 AM. I feed the dog and take her potty some mornings depending on when my husband works. After breakfast, I do my makeup and hair (sometimes I straighten/curl my hair, sometimes I just go with an easy bun or ponytail). My makeup routine takes about 10-20 minutes, depending on how much I choose to wear that day. Lol. I usually get dressed after makeup & hair, pack my lunch, pack a granola bar as a morning snack, and head out the door. I’m usually rushing out the door right at 7:15, but always manage to make it to work on time!

    9. Teapot Librarian*

      When I had to get to work at 6am, I woke up at 4:30, fed the cats, took a shower, got dressed, made my lunch, and was out the door by 5:30. Now that I’m back to regular hours (day starts at 8:15), I get up at 5:45, feed the cats, go back to bed–this is where things fall off the rails–and then get out of bed at 7:30, take a shower, panic that I don’t have any clean clothes, get dressed, and leave for work *hopefully* before 8:15. Today I got to work at 9. (Oops. Also notice how “make lunch” isn’t included.) I stop for coffee on my way to work. I pass a 7-11, and sometimes Dunkin Donuts has deals, so I end up spending not much more on coffee than I would if I made it at home.

    10. Sadsack*

      I have a 45 minute commute one-way and work 7:30 to 4:30. I get up at 5:30 a.m., sometimes closer to 6 a.m. to get myself ready. That usually takes me about an hour from waking up to walking out the door, often times less. I usually try to get my breakfast and lunch for the next day together the night before, but sometimes I throw it together in the morning. I usually have an idea of what I’m going to wear the next day or as I’m waking up in the morning I check the weather forecast and think about it while I’m getting ready. I have a pretty regular routine from the moment I get up so I don’t waste much time in the a.m.

      1. Sadsack*

        Maybe I should add that I eat my breakfast at work, not at home. I have a cat to feed at home, and that’s it.

    11. ThatGirl*

      I get up shortly after 6, shower and dress right away. I generally have about 15-20 minutes to get everything together and eat a quick bite – but I do a lot of prep the night before, including getting things together to take for lunch, prepping breakfast if needed (overnight oats, putting travel mug out, etc) and making sure my phone is either by my purse or charging. So then I can sit for a few minutes and eat and read twitter before heading out the door shortly after 7 (I work 7:30-4 or so.)

    12. Murphy*

      If not for my daughter, I could be out of the house ~35 minutes after waking up. (Shower, get dressed, makeup, make and take coffee, quick breakfast…before my daughter, I’d probably read some news articles or morning AAM post while eating.) I usually set out clothes and pack a lunch the night before to make things quicker.

      With an infant, I need help from my husband, and another half hour or so.

    13. Alex*

      Get up at 5:45. Shower. Breakfast. Bathroom. Brush teeth. Get dressed. Grab bag/lunch. Leave by 7:00. Get to work around 7:30. Always the same every morning. No variety. Ever. I’m not rushed, but I’m not exactly lounging around savoring every moment.

    14. paul*

      make sure my slacks and polo shirt are clean, I know where my belt/shoes are the night before.

      10 minutes to wake up, bathroom, shower, brush teeth. Another 10-15 to dry off and dress.

      I don’t eat or drink in the AM generally so breakfast doesn’t factor in.

      If it’s my day to run the kids to daycare, add in 30 minutes to wake them up, get clothes on ’em, etc.

    15. CR*

      My morning routine is like…15 minutes. I shower at night (always have), make my lunch and lay out my clothes the night before. I’d rather sleep in the morning than spend time on that kind of stuff. I spend a few minutes reading my phone in bed, get dressed, brush my teeth, attempt to fix my hair, maybe put on a bit of makeup on a good day, and leave. I pick up breakfast on the way or eat at the office.

    16. Emily S.*

      I shower at night, which makes mornings way easier. My job is 8-5.

      I start getting ready for bed at 9pm, do my nightly routine, and get in bed around 9:45. I typically read for about half an hour before turning out the light.

      In the morning, I get up around seven, get ready and eat breakfast. I’m out the door before 7:30.

    17. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I have to be at work by 8:30am. I wake up at 6:45am, shower and get dressed/ready, and leave by 7:40am. I often wish I had time in the mornings to make breakfast and read, but even if I didn’t have to be at work at 8:30am, I am sure I would end up using that time to sleep longer!

    18. King Friday XIII*

      Before we switched to a daycare near our home, my commute to work was about one block and I set my alarm for forty five minutes before I needed to be there, hit snooze three times, and then would get dressed and out the door in about seven minutes.

      Now drop off is my responsibility so my morning routine is mostly toddler wrangling.

    19. Nervous Accountant*

      My workday technically begins at 9:30, but I usually get here around 8:30-8:45 (this is outside of the busy season).
      4:45-wake up
      5:00-leave home
      6:20-gym
      7:30-shower, get ready etc
      At work by 8:30-845, after getting bfast & coffee and depending how long I take to get ready (wheN I have to shower and do my hair, it’s easily 90 minutes, not counting makeup).

      When I’m done with work< I want to do as little of anything as possible. SO I come home and veg out and chill with my husband so I try to do as much as I can in the AM.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        On days that I’m not going to the gym, I’m out the door in 20 minutes. I do my make up wheN I get to the office, in the bathroom.

    20. July*

      I get up at 6:10 and shower or, if I went to the gym the night before, read in bed and drink coffee for fifteen minutes. It’s a lovely incentive to the gym, incidentally. I make a quick breakfast and eat that while reading the newspaper and fix lunch. That takes around fifteen minutes total. I do my hair and makeup for around ten minutes. I get dressed pretty much the last thing before leaving, otherwise I make myself with coffee spills on my blouse or other small disasters. I don’t generally lay out my clothes the night before, but I do try to mentally choose my clothes as I’m doing my hair/makeup. I get out the door by 7:10-7:15.

    21. Catalin*

      Wake up around 6:15, shower, dress etc, grab a protein bar while making tea, out the door by 6:40. DC Area traffic and a 25+ mile commute gets me to the office around 7:40 (average).
      Many people in my office don’t come in until 9 or 9:30, I just can’t do that. I leave around 4 to get home around 5.
      Early morning is the best for reading stuff; it’s still quiet and I can focus. By 2 I’m less than useful and by 3:30 I’m basically at minimal capacity. I don’t take a lunch, so it really is one long slog.

    22. matcha123*

      I work from 9am to 5:45pm. I wake up at 7:15am, start the washing machine and while my clothes wash, I was my face and do my hair. I hang my clothes, get dressed, eat breakfast, brush my teeth, put on makeup and leave about 8:15am to walk to the train station.

      I’ve been trying to do some jumping jacks in the morning, since I need to get more exercise in. I started last week. I’ve done.. Like… 3 or 4 days…

      When I get home, I fold my clothes, do exercise in my place for 30 minutes to an hour, shower, make dinner, read or play on the computer and before I go to bed I lay out my clothes for the next day. I have to lay out my clothes and pack my backpack each night. I am not a morning person and doing the majority of work at night has made my mornings go so much more smoothly. Especially on days when I sleep in a little bit more.

    23. Garland Not Andrews*

      I try to be at work by 8:00 am. I usually get up by 4:30.
      My morning routine: Do yesterday’s dishes (the dishwasher is me), exercise 15 -20 minutes, go get shower, dressed, cook & eat breakfast, make to-go tea, pack lunch, brush teeth, comb hair, out the door by no later than 7:05 am.

    24. Jadelyn*

      I’m a lazyass, so my alarm goes off an hour before I need to leave (I leave at 8 for an 8:30 start time at work) only so that I have time to hit snooze a few times. I usually roll out of bed about half an hour before my departure time, stumble to the bathroom, do my thing (I shower at night, not in the morning, so this part doesn’t take long), throw on some clothes, slap on some basic makeup, try to make my hair look halfway presentable, take my meds, and head out. Usually with at least one break to play with the cats for a few minutes. If I had to shower and do my hair, I’d have to tack on another 45 minutes at least, which is why I do that at night and let my hair dry overnight. Otherwise it takes forever.

      If I’ve got time and am so inclined, I’ll heat water and make myself a couple packets of this amazing Vietnamese coffee (the G7 3-in-1) my partner’s coworker introduced him to. It helps me be less irritable while I’m getting ready.

    25. Ihmmy*

      I get up around 6:45, make a coffee, let the dogs out, putz on my computer. 7:20 I start getting ready (I often get ready quickly, especially if I’m skipping makeup that day, which means extra dog cuddles), 7:45 kennel dogs and leave the house for my bus, get to work at about 8:15 which gives me a few minutes to make another coffee, eat a yogurt for breakfast, sort my emails, etc before we officially start at 8:30.

    26. Emi.*

      I get up at 4:30 because I’m in a morning workout group, so my actual getting ready (including shower) starts around 6:45 or 7. I set out my clothes the night before; in theory I also prep my lunch but I often don’t until the morning (usually just leftovers so it’s fine). I leave at 8, so I have about an hour, and that’s enough time for me to be relaxed, enjoy my coffee, and chat with my husband. (I used to try to get up an hour before I had to leave, and I was much more rushed. This works for me because when my hour starts, I’m already fully awake.)

    27. Lemon Zinger*

      I arrive to work by 8:00 every morning. I usually wake up between 6:00 and 6:30 (due to my partner’s job, which starts earlier). I take about 20 minutes to get dressed, do makeup, etc. (I shower at night) 10-15 minutes to walk the dog. 5-10 minutes to pack a lunch (if I didn’t already do it the night before). 5 minutes to prepare my partner’s coffee. Commute is around 15 minutes, then I have a light breakfast and tea at my desk.

      I would love to be one of those people who works out in the morning, but I physically can’t do it. I need my sleep and prefer to work out after I get home from the office.

    28. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I usually wake up around 5:15am (4:30am when I want to squeeze an early morning workout in). I set aside about 15 minutes to check my emails and social media. I have the tv on to the morning news as I’m getting ready. I’m usually out the door by 6:30am.

    29. Fenchurch*

      It takes me a long time to boot up in the morning. I usually am up at 6:30 for my 8:30 shift (out the door at 8:05ish).

      I make coffee, take a shower, get dressed, and spend some time puttering around.

      Ideally I get in a quick workout before my shower, but let’s be honest I’ve been pretty lazy of late.

      1. Chicago Recruiter*

        I too am a putter-er. Up at 5:45, make coffee, feed dog, shower, puttering (usually checking email/social media), hair/makeup/get dressed, walk dog, out the door at 7:15 to be at work at 8. I wish I was the type of person who could just get up and go but I’m too high maintenance. :)

    30. Justin*

      I’m kind of a lunatic, but:

      Up around 5:45, tea/news/emails (but mostly “waking brain and body up” time), around 6:40 I go running (depending on the day, 5-7 miles), home around 7:25, shower, out the door at 7:45, at work just before 8:30.

    31. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a very consistent morning routine that takes a while, but I’ve done it for years. Helps me get my day started. I hate rushing and I hate being late, so this is what I’ve worked out:
      6:15: wake up, wash face, brush teeth, put in contacts
      6:25-ish: long morning walk with the dog, which can go between 30 minutes and 50 minutes, depending on how he’s feeling
      If I haven’t packed my lunch the night before, I pack it post-walk while feeding the dog.
      7:20 (at the latest): in the shower
      7:30: makeup, set hair in clips, put on bathrobe
      I have tea and a small breakfast in front of the TV/Internet. Sometimes I dawdle, but I never rush.
      8:10-ish: get dressed, spruce up hair, apply lipstick
      I’m usually out the door by 8:20, sometimes earlier, occasionally later if I have a wardrobe issue (usually something like, “Dammit, I planned to wear that sweater but it’s in the wash.”
      Depending on traffic, I get to my office between 8:35 and 8:50. My workday starts at 9.

      1. Information Security Analyst*

        I cannot–like almost physically cannot–take a shower less than 20 minutes. I have tried. I don’t know if it’s because I enjoy the water running down or if I’m just a slowpoke. And I have short hair so it doesn’t take long to shampoo.

        I think my record was 17 minutes.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I used to think I took reaalllllly long showers, but I just don’t. I’m kind of rigid in my routines, and I definitely have a shower one. Sometimes it’s an extra couple of minutes because I shave my legs, but nah, I’m a fast shower-er. I have long, thick, curly hair but I only wash it twice a week, so that kind of helps things.

        3. Monsters of Men*

          Funny, because I cannot take a shower longer than 15 minutes. When I had an ostomy bag I learned how to shower fast, and even after I got it reversed, I can’t break the habit.

    32. Cats of Katie Elder*

      Up at 5:05 am, coffee, reading, and cuddle time with my son until 6:00, shower, hair and makeup the breakfast and leave at 6:50 to start work at 7:30. I don’t get home until 6:30 or 7:00 pm and my son goes to bed at 7:30 so I like to have more family time in the morning.

    33. MidwestRoads*

      I get up at 6:45 to be at work by 8am. I eat breakfast, wash said breakfast dishes, and then do teeth-brushing and makeup, which is the longest part of my morning — at least 20 minutes. I get dressed, and then heat water for tea, which goes into a travel mug. I’m out the door by 7:50 and have a 5-minute commute, so I’m at my desk at 8am (as I’m expected to be). Cutting out eyeliner from my makeup routine has saved at least 10-15 minutes! :)

      Also, I shower at night and come home for lunch so I don’t need to pack food in the morning.

    34. The IT Manager*

      I’m “get up no earlier than I have to” person; although, I have recently gotten up earlier than I needed to and didn’t squeeze a workout routine and found it a lot nice starting work than feeling rushed.

      I work from home, but I always eat breakfast, get dressed in very casual clothes, put in contacts, wash my face, etc. so I need at least an half an hour. Shower is dependent on the night before and tha changes thetime I need to set my alarm for.

      I would like to get to bed earlier and get up earlier and maybe actually get a workout in some mornings (that’s an aspiration that rarely happens). But also I’m realizing instead of adding a work out and being rushed maybe a relaxing time before work might be better even if I means I have to work out in the evening.

    35. PizzaDog*

      I wake up an hour before I should leave the house – 20 minutes allotted for snooze button / Facebook, then I leave when I’m washed, dressed and made up. If I’m in the mood for breakfast, I’ll eat it when I get to work.

      1. Bibliovore*

        My routine has changed since dealing with chronic pain issues.
        5:30 wake up. Lay in bed and wish I could sleep later.
        6:00 Husband brings iced gel-packs to me in bed, then he does his PT and walks the dog.
        6:15 PT, shower and dress.
        6:45- meds, coffee, and a smoothie, newspaper
        7:00 to 8:00 work email and wait for meds to kick in.
        8:00-:15 pack lunch (usually leftovers) and leave for work.

        1. Bibliovore*

          old routine that I hope to get back to.
          Up at 5:30,
          Gym to swim by 6:00
          Swim 6:00 to 6:30
          Shower etc. 6:30 to 7:00
          Back home for smoothie and meds
          Out the door to work at 8:00 ish.

    36. Adlib*

      I try to get up an hour before I need to leave so I can do what I need to without rushing. That’s usually around 6:30. On days where I have spin class in the morning, I have to be up at 5, but that’s Wednesday & Friday only.

    37. Wolfram alpha*

      I wake up at 730 for 8am start. I make breakfast on the go get dressed brush hair and teeth and go. My commute is 2 min

    38. JeanB in NC*

      Up at 8:30, shower, dress, no makeup or blowing hair dry, make a bowl of instant oatmeal for breakfast, make coffee to bring with me, out of the door at 8:55, at work at 9:00!

    39. Anlyn*

      My start time is somewhat flexible, but still fairly consistent. I get up, go to the bathroom, then boot up my PC. While it’s doing that, I throw on some clothes, open the curtains, grab some water, fill dog’s water bowl if needed, and turn on the TV so I can bring up Pandora if I want. I scatter the rest of my routine throughout the morning. Showers are sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the evening.

      On days I do go into the office, it’s pretty much the same routine only I might use some dry shampoo if I haven’t had a shower in a day or so.

    40. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Up at 6.45 if I can manage it, otherwise its 6.20 when the cat stands on my bladder.

      Get up, shower, dress, go downstairs where I get my Aeropress going into my travel mug and in the meantime feed the cats, shovel the box and tidy their bathroom, and grab all my stuff for the day into my bag. Press my coffee and go back upstairs to dry hair. Out the door in 40 mins or so, while other half is just waking up and checking the news.

      But then I walk a half hour to work and am usually sweaty when I get there, so I have a half hour to cool down while I check email then I take my clean up bag to the bathroom and dry shampoo my hair, put on makeup, and tidy up a bit. Cant wait for winter when I can skip this step!

      Coming home its let the cats out into the yard, wash dishes, feed cats, shovel the box and tidy their bathroom, start dinner.

    41. ModernHypatia*

      Depends if it’s a swimming day or not. I swim 2-3 days a week, and my actual work day is 7:45am to 4:15pm.

      Swimming days: Get up at 5:25, take meds, get my brain going enough to drive (quick email check, etc.) Do any last minute lunch packing (I do most of it the night before). In the car at 6, at the pool by 6:20, swim 6:30-7, shower, change, go to work (usually there 5-10 minutes early).

      Non-swimming days: Get up at 6:20, meds, get dressed, do last minute lunch stuff, drive to work. If I leave my parking lot by 7:05, I’m pulling into the parking lot between 7:30 and 7:35. (If I’m much later than that, traffic gets a lot more unpredictable and annoying.) 6:20 is enough time I can have a quick bath in the morning if I need to.

      I am not naturally this much of a morning person (given free choice, I’d sleep something like midnight to 8, and go from there), but I find having less traffic is a really good incentive for me to get moving.

    42. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      Morning are my jam, so I generally get up two hours before I leave for work. I’m not responsible for anyone else so it’s basically my time to read the internet and watch reruns of SVU and the Mentalist. I eat before I shower, and between clothes and make up, it’s about 15 minutes for me to get ready. Because, as noted, I love to have some time in the morning to just be.

      When I lived in my old city, I would work out in the morning at my favorite studio so it would be get up, grab already packed backpack with work clothes and toiletries, go to studio for class, shower and get dressed there, and then on to work. Nowadays I can sometimes motivate myself to do a quick 10-15 minute online video to work out, if not, I do my rowing machine when I get home.

    43. YarnOwl*

      It takes me between 15 and 30 minutes to get ready in the morning (I have a very minimal makeup routine and usually shower and pick out my clothes the night before – I hate waking up early!) I also have to walk my dog and have a bit of a commute (a 15 minute drive followed by a 40 minute train ride and a 10 minute walk). I wake up by 6:15 at the latest so I can be to work by 8:00.

      I do a lot to make my morning quick, like doing meal prep for lunches on the weekend, packing my bag and laying clothes out the night before, showering the night before, going to bed early so I can get plenty of sleep, exercising at night instead of in the morning, and having a really short and simple makeup routine. It also helps that I have a shaved head and don’t ever have to do anything to my hair in the morning! It took me a couple of years to get my morning routine down to what I like and what works for me.

    44. Sabrina Spellman*

      It generally takes between 30 to 45 minutes to get to work. I’m up between 5:30 and 5:45 and try to be out the door by 6:45 (7:00 at the absolute latest!) I’m not very efficient with my time in the morning because I need to simply sit for a bit to wake up.

    45. Administrative Assistant*

      I am up at 5:30 (the cats have set that as their mandatory breakfast time, and I obey). I need to be at work at 7:30. I used to take my shower in the morning so it was quite rushed but I now do so at night and go to bed with wet hair; that saves about 30-35 minutes.

      When I get up I pull back the bed covers to let the bed air out, feed the cats, clean the litterbox, drink water, take my vitamins, use the bathroom a couple of times, put on the bacon, gather anything I might have failed to gather the night before, wash my face and teeth, finish making breakfast, eating it and washing all the dishes, make the bed, brush my teeth again, put on clothes, slip into shoes by the door and go. It doesn’t seem like a lot but it does take all that time. The only bad thing that happens–well okay, two bad things–is if the cats vomit, which adds another layer of fun, and if it is one of those rare mornings where I haven’t showered the night before. That’s rare, though, because I have to skip something else like breakfast to make up the time and I hate that.

    46. Kalamet*

      I’m not a morning person, but my schedule is pretty consistent:
      6:20 – alarm goes off
      6:20 – 6:30 – resent alarm for going off, pet cats
      6:30 – panic and get up
      6:30 – 7:00 – get dressed and straighten hair
      7:00 – 7:05 – pack lunch and leave house
      7:05 – 7:35 – drive to work

    47. Elizabeth West*

      Ima bookmark this thread — my morning routine could use some tweaking.

      I usually get up at 6 and it takes me an hour to drink my coffee and wake up. I read the news, etc. online while I de-zombify myself. Then I take a shower and get dressed. I try to leave the house with enough time to drive to work, but I have trouble judging how long stuff will take, so I run late some days. At Exjob, nobody really cared; if I were late-ish, I would just stay longer so my time would be even when I clocked out, or knock it off my lunch hour. It wasn’t a butt-in-seat job.

      But I might get one next time, so I want to make sure I do as much as possible the night before. Packing lunch, washing hair (on days I wash it) or conditioning, etc., and picking outfits.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Forgot to add–I try to go to bed at 11 if I’m getting up at 6. Otherwise, my natural inclination is to stay up until midnight and roll out of bed around 7 or 8.

    48. strawberries and raspberries*

      I’m the world’s worst procrastinator, so I usually end up getting up around 6 am (with my boyfriend, who has to be at work an hour earlier than I do), but while he’s in the bathroom I’m still in bed puttering around on my iPad until I can get in there for my shower (typically between 7-7:15). (Sometimes I shower and wash my hair when I get home to save time, but only if I’m home early enough that it can completely dry.) I can usually get myself showered, dressed, styled, and made up in between 20-40 minutes. I’ve found some good make-up hacks like tinted moisturizer and multi-sticks for eyes, lips, and cheeks, and blow-drying my hair is just a rough-dry without straightening or too much product. My commute is about 30 minutes by subway and I’m usually right on time for work at 9- once I actually left really early but then there was a train derailment and I didn’t get into the office until nearly 11 because of the back-up on my line. Since we’re thinking about having kids I do actually find myself wondering how I’m going to train myself out of rushing so much in the morning.

    49. Julianne*

      I take about 45-50 minutes, which includes showering, getting dressed, minimal hair/makeup, breakfast, packing up my lunch (I prepare it ahead of time, but pack the food/flatware/ice packs the morning of), and making coffee. My preference is to take a little longer, maybe read/watch/listen to the news while I eat breakfast, but I start work at 7 AM, have a 25 minute commute, and refuse to get up before 5 AM, so that limits me a little.

    50. Felicia*

      I wake up at 645 and leave the house at 730. Im a night showerer dont like makeup and make my lunch the night before which cuts down time and means i have time to be leisurely

    51. Stock Assessment Scientist (Marine Biologist)*

      I’m not a morning person, so I sleep as long as humanly possible before I’m late. Right now that looks like:

      4:45am: Alarm goes off, curse, snooze, and sleep for 10 more minutes (this is built into the schedule)
      4:55am: Alarm goes off again. This is actually when I need to be up. Curse, snooze, and sleep for 10 more minutes
      5:05am: 3rd Times the charge, drag myself out of bed, put on work clothes, and go downstairs
      5:10am-5:35am: Walk the dog. If I woke up earlier, she would get a longer walk, but I don’t.
      5:35am: Feed the dog
      5:40am: Makeup, contacts, hair brushing. Saying good morning to husband who has been up since 3
      5:50am: Make tea, lunch, and breakfast
      6:00am: Leave for work

      I can get delayed when I don’t get up at 5:05 like I should, and on mornings that I get rained on, because usually that means I’m soaked and I have to change my clothes. If I know its going to rain I’ll wear my pjs, but usually I don’t know so I get wet. I also shower in the evening because I usually go to the beach or for a run after work.

    52. Comms*

      I wake up at 7, spend forty minutes having breakfast (I like a cooked breakfast to start – most important meal of the day!), take twenty minutes getting ready and dressed, and out the door by 8.05 to catch the 8.10 train to walk in the door at work at 8.45.

      I could do what some of my colleagues do and make breakfast at work, but two slices of toast just doesn’t keep me going until lunch, I start getting hungry again by 10.30!

    53. Too embarrassed to come up with a clever name*

      On a good day I get up at 5:45 am, and on a bad one I sleep until 6:00 am. I make an effort to get out the door by 7:45 am so I can be punched-in at work by 8:00 am. (Luckily, I have a very short commute.) I have a light breakfast, read the morning newspaper, watch tv news while eating and reading and I usually take a shower before I leave for work. But…

      …a couple of weeks ago there was a discussion about people who have IBS and colitis and similar problems, and that’s a big part of the reason why I have a hard time getting out the door on time. It’s either one extreme or the other. I wish I could do better, but I really can’t. It’s a lot more difficult at my current job because they have a time clock and I really do have to be there by 8:00 am. (At my old job, one of the very few good things about it was that if I came in 5 minutes late they’d let me stay 5 minutes late, make up the time and they wouldn’t make a big deal out of it.)

    54. Windchime*

      I get up around 5:30. I have back and hip trouble, so I spent about 15-20 minutes stretching and trying to loosen up. I usually shower the night before, so I do a quick touch-up on my hair if necessary and a little bit of makeup. Then it’s downstairs to make a travel mug of tea and some toast. It’s a 10 minute drive to the bus/train station, so I eat my toast in the car. I have an hour bus or train ride (depends on how I feel), so I usually read my kindle or nap on the ride. I get to work at 7:30.

    55. Mimmy*

      My routine is pretty simple. Generally, I do all the typical things – make coffee, take a shower if needed, get dressed and groomed, eat, and get my stuff (bag, lunch if I bring it) together. I try to have my bag organized and my outfit selected the night before, so I can usually accomplish my morning routine in under an hour. Sometimes I have time to relax and watch the morning news with my husband, who almost always works from home.

  8. Cactus*

    Thoughts on how I can train my intern to stop being annoying and recognize professional norms?

    He sings in the hallways, whistles on the phone with customers, stands and tries to talk even when I tell him I’m busy and to leave…I’m at the point where I want to let him go but I don’t have the power to do so. My boss knows all of the issue but blames his upbringing. His work quality is mediocre at best and I have to remind him to complete his work in a timely manner and have provided him a checklist which he doesn’t seem to follow. He also whistles or hums or makes a noise to get my attention instead of saying “excuse me”.

    Some things I have tried: “John, I’m busy right now. You need to review the checklist and not walk in my office without instant messaging me first.” “John, do not sing in the hallway. It is disrupting other employees.” etc. Even turning my back on him and not responding or ignoring him when he comes in doesn’t work.

    1. TexanJudge*

      I just went through something similar. I decided to approach it as the next step for growth was to work on ‘professional behavior ‘. Basically lined out what is and isn’t appropriate. Seeing some improvement but I really think it depends on the person.

    2. Gwen Stefani-Shelton*

      It sounds like you’re doing everything you can to point out his missteps in the moment and being direct. If he still doesn’t get it, it’s unlikely that his behavior will change. You may just have to grit your teeth through the rest of his internship. Are you going to be able to give recommendations about whether he’s hired for a permanent position? If so, I would keep a list, mentally or otherwise, of all the things that make him a bad employee – mediocre work, inability to accept feedback, etc. When your boss shrugs and blames John’s upbringing you could try saying something like, “At some point we all have to overcome how we were raised and behave like professionals, but John won’t accept the feedback that would allow him to do so” or similar if you think that your boss might be receptive to that.

    3. Hellanon*

      Have you asked him specifically why he doesn’t take direction from you? It’s sounds like you have been very clear explaining to him what you need but that you could fruitfully explore the question of why he feels he doesn’t need to listen. Keep in mind that if he’s in college, his professors may couch similar directions as suggestions, with the implication that all he’s risking is his grade. Professors also tend to shrug a bit at excuses, having heard a million variations on “the dog ate my homework”… you need to address the choices he is making more explicitly, and frame them as choices, which college doesn’t necessarily do.

      1. INeedANap*

        I like this. Adapting AAM’s script could work:

        “John, I’ve told you that singing in the hallway in unprofessional and it needs to stop. Why is this still continuing?”

    4. EddieSherbert*

      Maybe try addressing it all to him in a meeting as a pattern if it isn’t working ‘in the moment’.

      Something like.. “I’ve mentioned X and Y to you several times as an issue. In fact, I’m actually noticing a pattern where every time I give you a direction you seem to take it as a ‘one time thing’. In the future, if I tell you something is inappropriate I need you to take it to heart and change your behavior.”

    5. CM*

      Maybe you can sit him down and explain that during his internship, he’s expected to learn about professional norms, and while you don’t expect him to be perfect on day one, you do expect him to listen to feedback and address it. You won’t be able to give him a good reference unless he improves. And here are the things that you need to see real progress on: [list top 3] You could also schedule a check-in with him in a week and tell him he needs to report back on his progress.

  9. Anon because this is a Doozy*

    In a recent thread, Engineer Girl posted links to studies about gender bias in performance reviews. I found them very interesting, as I am a woman working in engineering / IT industry.

    I had a review this week. It was a textbook example of the issues in the articles.

    – “You are ‘aggressive.'” Used three times. No context provided.

    – I need to “tone it down.” Exact quote. “It” was never specified.

    – I need to “present a positive image.” Whatever the hell that means.

    When discussing feedback from my customer (I work on a federal contract), my manager rephrased negatives as positives. “You have not received any negative comments from the customer.” My customer has frequently praised my work – in direct conversations with my manager, in emails, and in phone cons. Wonder why these positive reviews weren’t referenced.

    The one time I tried to discuss an area of my work, I was shut down. I sat with lips clamped in a grimace of a smile and nodded while he talked at me for a half hour. There was no conversation about work product. He only talked about personality.

    When we reviewed goals for the next quarter, he couldn’t provide anything specific other than reiterating the “positive image.” I said that’s rather nebulous. He grunted and said he would come up with something.

    Can’t wait to see the final writeup when it is sent to me.

    As far as my relationship with my manager, it is a little fraught. I’ve called him out on a questionable contract action, which did not endear me to him (but prevented a government audit). He’s had issues with other female employees (two have quit abruptly and three others have filed complaints), to the point that upper management counselled him extensively. His team is majority women, but he has promoted only men as supervisors. In fact, a look at my company’s org chart shows that every managerial position – executive, program manager, and supervisors – save one is held by a single demographic.

    Next moves? Not sure. I will wait for the written review and see what it says. I may just push for specific goals (I’ll draft them for him). I can’t fix him but the company is keeping him, so I have to find ways to work with him.

    1. Myrin*

      Oof, that sounds both annoying and disheartening; I’m really sorry. Might it help to directly say “If you don’t tell me what you mean by ‘aggressive’/’tone it down’/’be positive’/other gendered bullcrap, I won’t be able to change it!” or is he the type to brush off even such a direct approach? I’m really sorry you’re experiencing this.

      1. kbeers0su*

        This is how I’ve responded to previous similar feedback. When it comes up I ask 1) what exactly they want to see from me and 2) for specific examples of what I’m doing that’s not correct. And then I respond with what they just told me to make sure that they hear what they’re telling me. Because, honestly, when you repeat back to your supervisor “so whenever I see anyone in the hallway, regardless of what I’m doing, I’m supposed to smile and engage them in a conversation, no matter what else I’m doing, because that will make me seem friendlier?” the boss realizes how ridiculous it sounds. OR- even better- they can’t come up with any example that makes sense, which is clear when you repeat back to them “so your feedback is that I’m too aggressive, but you can’t give me any examples of times when I’ve been too aggressive?” they realize they have no weight to those remarks. Doing this has helped get a couple of my evals changed and has helped my boss(es) realize that just because someone gives them feedback about me being aggressive, if there is no basis for the feedback, there is no reason for it to go into my eval. AND, I would think if you do this and don’t reach the point with your boss where they realize that there is no weight to the comment, you then can take that up the chain- “during my eval I was given this feedback and when asked for specific examples of times this has been an issue or how to correct it, boss was unable to do so, so I’m here asking you what I should do with this.”

        1. A.N.O.N.*

          +1, and kudos for handling that ridiculous feedback so well!

          The “repeat back” method can be so, so effective.

      2. Snark*

        There’s nothing to change. This is 100% coded language for “you called me out and for that you shall die.”

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I’d raise the issue above his head. Talk to upper management/HR let them know that your review didn’t focus at all on your work.

    3. Anon4This*

      Read Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg, I know lots of people hate it for a variety of reasons but when it comes to gender bias in tech it really is a fantastic resource.

      I was in your shoes a few years ago, male dominated industry, one of only a couple women from a STEM field at my company at all, with a male boss who fed right into that type of feedback. Eventually we had a massive blowout about it and I called him on the carpet for his gendered feedback to me. That seemed to eliminate the problem and make him much more aware of the fact I was on the lookout for this behavior wouldn’t tolerate it.

      I could tell he was resentful for a while and things between us were strained briefly but eventually got much much better. What really helped was that, while he was a new manager without much experience to come to these estimations of my being aggressive, etc. I was overwhelming adored by several executives because they knew I kicked butt at my job.

      So in reality his power to retaliate against me for our argument was really limited by upper management. This is important to keep in mind because there’s always a risk in bringing this sort of thing to your boss’s attention.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’m glad you stood up for yourself, and even happier that eventually things got better. (That doesn’t always happen.) I’m thinking that because he was inexperienced he was “trainable.”

        Of course, having several executives who adored you and who recognized the value your brought the job certainly helped.

    4. Assertive, not bossy.*

      I would really love to see Alison do a full article on how to deal with gendered comments during reviews, like the examples you give. Maybe a list of these gendered comments with a short explanation of why they are gendered and show that women are judged on a different standard — I could print it out and sneak it under the executive’s doors some weekend.

      It can be really difficult to take any criticism (or even some compliments) during a review, let alone stop your manager and explain how traits that are praised in men are held against women.

    5. Andrea*

      Do you get similar feedback in other areas of your life? Is there a possibility that these are real issues that you are brushing off? Can you modify your approach to working with him so that you are working as a team?

      1. Jadelyn*

        So…I’m sure this is well-intentioned, but it’s really not helpful to a woman dealing with inappropriately gendered feedback from a male manager with a track record of sexist behavior to respond with, essentially, “Well maybe he has a point.” and “You need to be the one to change to enable his behavior.” Especially when the OP in question lists multiple examples that show it to be a systemic problem, not a specific personal problem.

        1. Camellia*

          Yeah, at one company, our manager always dinged a coworker on her “body language”. He couldn’t give her specific examples but just kept talking about her “bad body language”. The best reason we could come up with was that she was significantly taller than he was and he didn’t like that.

          1. kbeers0su*

            THIS IS MY LIFE. As a woman at 6′ tall I avoided wearing heels for years because I was always told that I come across as intimidating or aggressive or whatever. And then a year ago I decided that was crap and started wearing them anyways!

            1. Anlyn*

              I have a friend who is 6’4″ and she’ll wear 5 inch heels. She’s my hero. (I hate heels and refuse to wear them.)

            3. Chaordic One*

              When I was younger, as someone who is 5′ 12″, I was told that my height gave me presence and made men perceive as being more of an equal than petite women, but at this point in my life I really think that was B.S.

              1. Windchime*

                Yeah. I’m 5’11” and some men do not like it. At all. They are inclined to make snarky remarks and to imply that you are really even taller than you say. Yes, dude, I for sure know that I am 5’11”. Which most likely means that you are not (despite your claims), since I can see over the top of your head.

        2. Andrea*

          I don’t know if it is gendered feedback. I’ve worked with both men and women who didn’t get or care that they came across as negative and aggressive to coworkers and clients. Someone can be a jerk in general and still be giving your actual feedback. If she thinks that she can’t modify her own approach to work successfully with her boss then she needs to move to another position.

          1. Marketing LadyPA*

            I agree with you, and this was my first thought as well.

            I had a boss who was incredibly rude and outright offensive in her interactions with people at all levels. When she was spoken to about it, she blamed it on being gendered feedback and that she wasn’t “aggressive” , when in reality, her personality was a nightmare and I hated working for her. She was eventually let go because of this.

            1. Observer*

              Are you saying that when this woman asked for example, they could not come up with ONE example of her behavior? And that she’d gotten glowing response from clients and not a single complaint?

          2. The OG Anonsie*

            I think it’s pretty silly to say that a person who has a well established (and company recognized) track record of identical issues with female employees is giving classically gendered feedback to a female employee in a condescending way should be assumed to be genuine because it is generally possible for a manager to give feedback and for an employee to actually be aggressive.

            That’s hearing hooves at a horse ranch, assuming it’s an oryx, and telling anyone who thinks it’s a horse that they’re jumping to conclusions because oryxes exist and some ranches have them. Yeah, there are lots of oryx ranches with lots of oryxes, but this one keeps horses. Yes, sure, I guess an oryx could have escaped from another ranch and found its way in… Why are you so sure it’s not one of the horses we know lives here?

            I agree that moving on makes sense, though, since this sounds like a dramatically untenable situation.

          3. Queen of the File*

            I think the manager’s ability to give examples should help clarify this. If you’re actually being negative or aggressive, there should be some things to point to–negative feedback from clients or coworkers, times the boss has seen you respond to something in a specifically inappropriate way.

            If it’s more of a gendered thing those examples might be more negligible, like “you disagreed with a point during a meeting” even though you were professional and polite while you were doing it.

            1. Observer*

              The thing is that the boss can’t even come up with a single example. What does THAT tell you?

          4. Observer*

            Please. I suggest that you re-read what she wrote.

            She’s gotten glowing reviews from clients! That’s not someone who doesn’t care about how she comes off! The boss can’t come up with a single example of her misbehavior. That does NOT happen with people who don’t give a hoot about how they come off!

            We give posters the benefit of the doubt unless there is specific reason to do otherwise. In this case there is no reason whatsoever to doubt the OP’s description. What she describes is classic sexism.

      2. curmudgeon*

        I was once told in a review that I was wearing the same clothes everyday (I wasn’t)…I asked whether that was the week after my apartment burned down (yes it had burned down and he knew it). yeah, Unless they stink (which they didn’t) there’s no reason to comment on what I’m wearing.

      3. Observer*

        Seriously?!

        I’m sorry, the minute someone gives feedback this general, vague and unbacked with examples – even when explicitly asked for it – the assumption has to go in the other direction. When there is additional evidence of gender (or other) bias, you simply do NOT get to put the blame on the person who is getting the feedback. And, when there is actually evidence that the feedback is actually wrong – the clients actually LIKE HER! – sorry, even bringing up the possibility that the recipient is the “problem” and should figure out what she needs to change is offensive, damaging and just enables bigotry. The only thing that would help is changing her gender, and that’s not exactly something she can do.

    6. rubyrose*

      When you receive the written review, do you have the opportunity to give a response? What I’ve done in the past is to state that I would really appreciate it if my manager would point out the problems as they occur. And that no specific examples were given during the review. Since he is already under scrutiny, this might get the attention of others.

    7. Future Analyst*

      I worked with someone like this, and you’re right, you can’t fix him. However, you don’t have to just grit your teeth and bear it: I would suggest you point out the nebulous feedback each and every time it comes up, and ask follow up questions repeatedly. Granted, this will likely be seen as “aggressive,” but as long as you keep your tone curious, not angry, it could eventually get you some sort of answers, or at least highlight to him that the feedback he’s providing is not actionable. No promises that it will work, but I think it’ll be a lot less frustrating to you in the long run if you don’t constantly feel as though you have to ‘shut up and put up.’ And yes, raise it to whoever is above him: when you get the final write-up, you could request a meeting with him and his boss, and say that you’d just like clarification on actions you can take to address some of the noted issues. If he has to explain himself in front of someone else, he’ll either look like a tool, or he’ll be forced to give you actual answers. Good luck!!

    8. neverjaunty*

      Get a lawyer who can advise you on how to protect yourself and prepare. The backward-negative review is them “papering your file”, in other words, building a paper trail of pretextual reasons to fire you or deny you promotions/raises.

    10. Wolfram alpha*

      One thing I found helpful when I was in this scenario was to list the “problems” and come up with “solutions” sort of like my own pip but informal. I had my boss agree to meet weekly to discuss until such a time she felt I had improved. We met for about 6 weeks before she got tired and pronounced me cured. The most helpful part was when other leads would try to dismiss an issue I was experincing, like jingoism, by stating I was actually aggresive and that is why issue exists I could point back to this document to force the conversation back to the root discussion.

    11. Lora*

      He’s a jerk. He’s not going to change. The company has decided, apparently, that whatever he does is worth a potential lawsuit. You can ask for a transfer via going over his head, to a boss who doesn’t suck. That’s pretty much it. Also, I don’t necessarily agree that you should get a lawyer, but definitely start documenting your successes and interactions with him. Dude is sketchy as.

      Re: goals, yes draft your own. Chances are he will just “oh, okay” them. But don’t expect him to be fair or even understand anything you wrote. I was supposed to have a (male, sexist) peer collaborate with me on department goals. The guy didn’t even write anything up, just blathered on about a load of nonsense he had copy/pasted from the internet and when I said, “that’s completely inappropriate for our department, here is what I came up with” he just said, “oh, okay.”

      1. neverjaunty*

        Normally I would say try talking to boss and grandboss first, or perhaps HR, but the stuff they are doing to make good feedback look negative is exactly what companies do when they are trying to create a CYA paper trail. That is well beyond “boss make a sexist remark” – it’s setting someone up to get fired KNOWING they need a pretext for doing so. That calls for talking to a lawyer.

    12. Triplestep*

      This happens to me routinely. As much as I try to watch my “tone”, I do catch myself occasionally speaking in a way that would seem natural to my New York Jewish family, but might be off-putting to my New England colleagues. I definitely have a cultural communication style. But when I’m given feedback about “tone” in a review, I either don’t get examples, or I get recycled examples from previous quarters or years. I’ve been encouraged to check in with my co-workers and I have. They all express (or feign) surprise that I would have been given this feedback, and they have no issue with my communication style. They like that I am direct.

      I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s just some combination of things about me that make my natural way of speaking seem unprofessional to some, and this gets back to whomever is managing me, who then brings it up in a review. But because it’s so intangible, examples can rarely be cited. Would would they say? “Considering your gender/age/weight, you need to watch your tone.”? I have to sit in meetings with people who routinely interrupt, or who react to what’s being shared by staring with their mouths wide open, or who say whatever they want in whatever tone suits them, on upspeak every.single. sentence. These are either men, or women who are young, attractive and slender. I’m not any of those things, and I get the “tone” feedback with no examples.

      Has this held me back professionally? Probably. But I have come to the conclusion some people will be put off by my communication style, while others will prefer it. My current manager gets similar feedback about his own style, so he’s in the second camp. My last manager started out in that second camp (I had asked her for feedback) but then gave me the “tone” feedback without examples during review, presumably after someone else went to her with it.

      Sorry I can’t offer any advice. Hopefully it is some consolation to know that you are not alone.

    13. Mephyle*

      There seem to be two issues here. They are intertwined, but it may be worth disentangling them when seeking solutions. One is the gendered feedback. The other, as Master Bean Counter mentioned, is a review that didn’t deal with your job performance at all, only your demeanor.

    14. Snark*

      So, this jumped out at me:

      “As far as my relationship with my manager, it is a little fraught. I’ve called him out on a questionable contract action, which did not endear me to him (but prevented a government audit)”

      What he’s telling you, when he says “You are ‘aggressive,” you need to “tone it down,” and you need to “present a positive image” is “You called me out and generally present a competent, professional image, and that makes me insecure, angry, and unsure of myself, so you need to be placid and compliant and never say anything that might reflect badly on me even to me.”

    15. Student*

      Why stay someplace where you know the deck is stacked against you? Jumping into the unknown with a job hunt is scary, but the odds you’ll get a somewhat fairer shake elsewhere is pretty decent.

  10. Arguing Against X*

    I was reading in another AAM thread about employees who argue with their managers and the phenomenon of circular arguing. Boss says you should do X, report says I disagree, boss tries to convince of X, etc.

    I had this experience recently with my manager where I disagreed vehemently with her. It wasn’t a case of I prefer to do Y, but manager wants me to do X which is somewhat different from Y. To me, it was a case of I am trying to do ABC and her suggesting X solution would solve zero of my issues with the project. It comes across as a complete misunderstanding of what my work actually is.

    If it were a matter of changing the way I perform a task, that’s one thing, but I couldn’t let it go because it just felt so out-of-touch.

    What do I do in this situation?

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      As a boss whose employee argues with me, I’d say that it really depends on your relationship with your manager in general. Do you work well with her generally, and this is just a one-off situation? Or do you regularly butt heads with her?

      1. Arguing Against X*

        So this is tough to answer. My boss is newly promoted from our internal team and new to managing as a whole. I haven’t figured out our dynamic yet, but as colleagues we worked well and disagreed constructively. Having a fruitless disagreement in this new context of boss and report has thoroughly frustrated me.

        1. Teapot Librarian*

          Since she’s new as a manager, is it possible that she legitimately doesn’t understand what your job is, and this could be an opportunity to explain it to her? I’d suggest going back to her and saying something along the lines of “I was really frustrated to have the disagreement we had the other day. When we were peers, we were able to disagree constructively; can we talk about this issue again and work it out together? The reason I was so vehement was because A, B, C…; does that change your view of the situation?”

    2. Jimbo*

      No advice. But I can commiserate that my boss is the same way. No solutions for me. I am giving my notice of resignation soon

    3. Tess*

      I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this. My boss is very aggressive and direct in his approach so it kind of feels like you’re being attacked from the start. At first I’d try to explain myself logically, but it didn’t seem to work at all so I decided to test something out. The next time he did this, I said “thanks for the feedback, I’ll implement that.” He was still argumentative!!! Now I’ve just realized that’s his management style and he likes things his way, and will argue without pushback. Has anyone else ever dealt with this?

      2. Mephyle*

        I think it does happen to other people. I remember reading about this in a forum where people vent about crazy things at work.
        Boss: “You need to do X and you need to do it by XX method.”
        Employee: “You’re right; I agree. That’s the way I’m doing it.”
        Boss: “No, no, no. You’re not listening to me! Why are you so argumentative? You’re being insubordinate!”
        …and so on. According to poor Employee’s account, s/he tried different wordings but s/he could not get it into Boss’s head that s/he was doing exactly what she was telling Employee to do.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Me: “I’m on it boss. I am agreeing with you, I will do that. Boss? Boss? Please do not accuse me of insubordination I just said, “I agree and I am doing it the way you say.”
          If need be add, “Boss, I have not been insubordinate. Please don’t accuse me of that. You know that is not true.”

        2. Mephyle*

          I know, right? The LW in that case mentioned that they had said things that pretty much coincided with your suggested script (in a respectful, not argumentative tone of voice, according to LW) but the Boss just kept reading it as “won’t stop arguing with me.”

      3. nonymous*

        I do that sometimes. A good check for me is when people say “preaching to the choir!” or ” you don’t have to convince me! I already agreed!” (that latter one is courtesy of my husband). You can also try catching your boss in a non-confrontational moment and checking in whether his arguing is a reflection on your performance. If it’s his style, you may not be able to change it but at least it won’t bite you come performance time.

    4. kittymommy*

      Have you tried X? Even just to show her that it does not work as some people need to be shown the actual problem with it before they’re convinced? I mean at the end of the day, she’s the boss and if she wants X done, X needs to be done or you need to leave. In a previous job my boss wanted the job (the whole entire way of doing the job) performed a certain way. It was a bad, poorly executed way and produced very low results. But is was that way or get fired.

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        +1 In an ideal world, bosses would react to Quirk’s line of reasoning but there are still those out there who are determined that they are ALWAYS. RIGHT.

        My OldBoss had moments like this – you had to at least try it his way first even if you knew his way was doomed to fail. I would treat it like a box-ticking exercise or a formality – like ‘First I’ll do X, then I’ll feedback to Fergus, then I can do Y’. It’s obviously not ideal but it’s also the only why I’ve found to deal with bosses who won’t budge without going out of my mind.

    5. Rat Racer*

      Is it a case of cross-communications? She thinks you’re solving for X, but you’re actually solving for Y? I don’t think in that case that it’s really arguing, it’s clarifying the problem statement, and reframing the issue. If there’s an actual point of disagreement where both sides understand each other’s positions and the Boss things one thing will solve the problem and the employee disagrees then it’s appropriate to defer to authority. But – minus context – it sounds like you’re talking about miscommunication.

    6. Quirk*

      One approach I use is to seek immediate clarification of the requirements – that is, what is the outcome the manager hopes to achieve?

      Sometimes these confusing situations are caused by requirements shifting without everyone being kept in the loop. If the requirements, once reiterated, are the same as before, then some details of them that will not be addressed by solution X can be mentioned as a concern. My goal is to show respect and take the suggestion seriously, but also to outline the areas where I feel further work is necessary. Again, sometimes I may have neglected to consider some resource that makes the suggested solution feasible.

      If the manager has missed these issues when forming their opinion, or is feeling out of their depth, they can withdraw still feeling that they had a productive discussion that contributed through examining a nearly viable approach. If the manager does actually know better, they have the chance to correct any misconceptions. If the manager is actually ignorant but determined to brazen it out, having to bluster through questions laden with technical detail is hopefully uncomfortable enough to dissuade them from a repeat performance.

      1. Arguing Against X*

        You. I like you.

        Part of the reason this discussion derailed is because it came at the tailend of a poorly defined process with pent-up emotions and not enough time for me to process where everything went wrong. Differing communication styles also played into frustrating an already tenuous situation.

        I will take your advice to heart and see how I can apply it in future conversations.

      2. Garland Not Andrews*

        Exactly. Be respectful, but clarify the goal(s), and ask how X will accomplish them as opposed to Y. Your manager may see something you do not, or may be unclear on what you are trying to accomplish.

        Try to be as matter of fact as possible to avoid the “fight”.

      3. Anonish*

        This! I was working as a Spout Specialist, the only one in our location, with some input into Teapot Body work, as it relates to Spouts. I’m very specifically trained in spouts, and am well-regarded as a Spout Specialist among others in that speciality.
        New Boss disregarded the growth we’d made in improving spouts, and halted new projects in spout innovation. I had to go back to the starting gate and show him about spouts, how they work, why we need them.
        He finally responded with some exasperation and said essentially
        , “I don’t care about the mother f-ing spouts because handles are more important! You never bring me handle improvements! Go work on handles!” Which is a whole different field.
        He clearly had different requirements of me that weren’t communicated or actually in any way connected to my job, but felt that I was being difficult and insubordinate.

    7. Infinity Anon*

      I generally figure if my boss tell me to do X instead of Y I get one chance to explain why X does not solve the problem but Y would. After that, unless X will actually cause problems or cannot be done, I do X. Either my boss will see why X won’t work or I will get used to it.

    8. Jadelyn*

      I’ve had this happen a few times, and I usually do…argue isn’t quite the right word, but push back carefully. Have you explained to your manager *why* it is that doing X won’t actually help with what you’re doing? When this has happened to me, it’s usually literally because my manager doesn’t get a lot of the technical aspects of what I do (no shade on her – nobody I work with really gets the technical stuff I do tbh, it’s not just her), so I have to explain it to her in simplified, non-technical terms and be really super clear on exactly why her directive won’t fix the issue, or why it would cause worse issues elsewhere in my work. Most of the time that’s enough to convince her to go with my proposed solutions instead.

      The times that it hasn’t worked, I just shrug and do it her way until it creates the exact mess I originally predicted it would, then I bring the mess to her and politely note that the solution isn’t working, and why don’t we try Plan B to see if that helps? (Plan B being, of course, my original proposed solution.) I try to keep it from being a “told you so” moment as much as possible, because I don’t want to be a jerk about it, and it usually works out from there.

    9. Future Analyst*

      Is there a middle ground: can you implement X, and then return to her to show her that implementing X had no effect on resolving issues ABC? That way, you did as she asked, but the issues still remain, and you can then hopefully move to addressing those. I know it takes longer, and sucks up time you may not have, but it’s one of the only ways I’ve found to actually ‘teach’ a manager who doesn’t understand my job.

      1. Mephyle*

        Doesn’t that get you into trouble for failing to resolve ABC? Maybe not in your case, but for other people I can well picture it happening.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes the gap in understanding seems so big that there just is not enough time to bridge the gap.
      Put in the time. It will save you lots of hassles later.

      “Boss, of course, I am going to do what you tell me to do. However, I am not clear on how doing X instead of Y helps me with problems D, E and F*.”
      Boss: Well end item looks much nicer if you do X. [Insert other lame rationale here.]
      You: “Okay. Problems D, E and F will consume at least 16 hours of my time; doing X will chew up at least 5 hours of that and have no impact on the three main problems.”

      *Here it is good to have some way to identify your problems. D can be 5 teapots only fit into the shipping carton that is supposed to hold 6 teapots. So you call problem D, the undersized shipping carton problem. Problem E could be that there is something wrong with your machine that produces shipping labels. You can’t make shipping labels, and problem E becomes the shipping label problem. And so on.

      So you develop a very brief way to describe large problems. And your sentence looks like this:”Boss, of course, I am going to do what you tell me to do. However, I am not clear on how doing X instead of Y helps me with the undersized shipping carton problem and the shipping label machine problem.”
      If you have a thinking boss, the next thing out of her mouth will be, “What undersized carton and what label machine problem??!!”

      These conversations can get verrry interesting. I have seen good bosses say, “Wait. Why are you dealing with the carton problem. Where is Bob? That is HIS responsibility not yours.” And the conversation keeps going like this with the other two problems. That is when you find out you have a boss who peels the weight of the workload off of you.

    11. Chaordic One*

      When I was in similar situation I asked my supervisor for advice on establishing priorities and help with managing the extra tasks that had fallen into my lap over the years. She also had no understanding of my job and would make suggestions along the lines of, “Well, how about we eliminate steps C, D and E?” And then when I’d tell her that the account managers in the branch offices use the information from steps C, D and E when they deliver our products, I’d get crickets.

      After I was fired, I’m told that I became the scapegoat for all sorts of things (like steps C, D and E) that weren’t done AFTER I left. Go figure.

    12. DBG*

      Oh, thank goodness. I thought I was the only one out there like this and it was making me NUTS. Or when I report a problem (X), and boss picks up on a corellary problem (Y), and then gets so focused on solving (Y) that I can’t get an answer for what to do about (X) in the first place.

  11. HigherEdPerson*

    Not a question, but just a post in solidarity for all the Higher Ed folks that see move-in on the rapidly approaching horizon.

    May the odds be ever in your favor.

    2. EA in Partly Cloudy Florida*

      I used to be a student employee for my school’s IT support department. I actually loved the chaos of move-in. Plus it was the only time that management actually allowed us to work OT.

    4. LibbyG*

      I’m higher ed faculty, and it’s both crushing (long days of being able to read and think and plan!) and exciting (awww! look at them!). Life-changing moments on the way! It’s such a privilege to be an educator.

    6. kbeers0su*

      Bahahahaha. I run a conduct office and the first six weeks are my busiest. And I’m 7 months pregnant so all I want to do is take a nap. BUT INSTEAD I’m prepping, prepping, prepping cause I know it’s going to be like a gauntlet once it starts…

      1. Dankar*

        The start of the semester when the first-years and returning on-campus residents move into their dorms. It’s hectic (especially for Housing and Residence Life), but it is my FAVORITE part of the year. I get that clean-slate, starting fresh feeling in August that most everyone else does in January.

        Kudos to all my HRL folks, and to all the admins out there frantically copying syllabuses for the first week of classes!

    8. Elle*

      Ha! I’ll be one of the clueless parents moving their offspring in! 8/23 is the big day! I do appreciate all that you all do to make move-in day go smoothly. It’s a hard day for us first year parents, so it’s nice to see all of your smiling, helpful faces. I was an RA myself, so I completely get it on your end!

    9. ACS*

      I was going to post “yay for intern season being over” so I guess that’s just handing the baton to you guys!

  12. Colette*

    Two weeks ago I applied for two positions from the same company (different departments). About two days later I got a rejection for one of the positions (standard form letter. Stings, but at least they bothered).

    It appears whoever’s hiring for other position is taking a ‘ghosting’ approach to rejections though, since I haven’t heard from them at all. (I expect to be rejected from that one too since the specs were pretty similar).

    The frustrating thing is there’s still that annoying little bit of ‘hope’ that maybe they’re still shortlisting or something, but since I’d gotten the rejection from the first position so quickly I doubt it’s because of a slow process. It’s just frustrating they’d take the ‘easy’ way out with candidates and not just bother.

    (Yeah, I know I need to stop thinking about it, but I’m only human…)

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Since it’s different departments, it really could be that the second department is still reviewing resumes (maybe they got a lot more?) or the manager is on vacation or they’re having trouble getting everyone involved at the same table. I 100% understand your anxiousness, but it’s only been 2 weeks, and 2 weeks is a LOT longer for someone looking for work than it is for the people doing the hiring. I hope you aren’t being ghosted and that you get an interview!

    2. Juli G.*

      I’m not sure I consider you ghosted yet. Some managers want to look at every resume the moment they come in and some say “Let’s give it a couple weeks and look at everyone then.”

      Certainly move forward with life but you might get a pleasant surprise!

    3. Ama*

      We have multiple departments hiring here (including mine). I moved fairly quickly because my department’s busy season starts right after Labor Day (and also I’m essentially a one-person department at the moment so I didn’t really have to coordinate with other people about interviews) — and even then I wound up with an unexpected three week break in my ability to bring people in because I had a sudden health issue and had to wait to make sure I would be able to return to regular work before I started up again.

      Our other department started hiring at the same time I did and still hasn’t brought people in for interviews yet because there are multiple people who need to be present and coordinating vacation this time of year has been difficult.

    4. Huddled over tea*

      I actually got an email from a candidate recently that said something similar. Something like ‘I received your rejection for position X, which I applied to last week but haven’t heard back about position Y, which I applied to a few weeks earlier; I’ll assume I’ve been rejected for position Y too, but it would have been nice to know’.

      My internal response was essentially ‘…?? Why would you assume that? The two hiring teams have nothing to do with each other…’ They hadn’t been rejected for Y at all – because the hiring manager for Y hadn’t got around to reading the CVs yet.

  13. BubsAnon*

    I posted this at the end of last week’s open thread, but I am not sure if it reached its intended audience.

    I know there are several commenters here who are librarians or librarians-to-be.

    Just saw this job opening where I work. I don’t know much about the library, but am open to any other questions about the school/city.

    https://jobs.tbr.edu/postings/19886

  14. RemotelyHere*

    Hey there, hive! I have a friend that is looking for a work from home/remote gig. Any ideas on where to look?

    1. Fabulous*

      If they’re good at building reports, Concur Support may be an option. They all work from home. Tried to recruit me ages ago because I picked up on the cognos reporting tool really quickly, but I was not in a position to work from home at the time.

      1. RemotelyHere*

        When I asked, she said she’d be willing to do anything that didn’t require being on the phone the whole time. Her background is in insurance and she was looking into transcription work, but didn’t really know where to start.

    5. Elle*

      I have a friend who works for Appen…she reviews website posts and rates them. She works completely from home/online. I believe she works about 20 hours a week, and has been doing so for a few years.

  15. Teapot Librarian*

    Favorite line you’ve seen in a resume? I’ve had a few resumes cross my desk this week and there were some great ones. One started with a summary of qualifications:
    *deep ability to [A]
    *uncommon ability to [B]
    *remarkable ability to [C]
    *great ability to [D]
    *demonstrated ability to [E]
    *profound ability to [F]

    Another included his “experience surfing the internet and downloading software.” Poor guy would have gotten an interview if he’d left that off.

    2. Larina*

      Yesterday I saw a resume where the woman listed her degree as a “Bachelorette of Graphic Design.” Is changing the gender of your degree type the hip new thing that college students are doing? Is this just a very silly misspelling? Has anyone else seen this?

      1. Squeeble*

        Hahah, that’s amazing. My guess is that she literally just thought that if you’re a woman with a BA, it has to be gendered?

      2. Anonygoose*

        Changing your degree to suit your gender is most definitely not a thing! Can you imagine? “I have a Mistress in Fine Arts”……

        It sounds like that woman was just very confused about her degree…

        3. Chaordic One*

          Or maybe she has a mistress (in fine arts), in addition to having a wife (in a STEM field).

      4. who?*

        omg… I hope that’s not a weird new trend. Maybe she had the Bachelorette on TV while she was writing her resume? lol

      5. Partly Cloudy*

        Autocorrect?

        I’m not sure if it’s better for it to be auto-correct and the person didn’t catch & fix it or if it was on purpose.

      7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I’m hoping she meant “baccalaureate” and made a typo or maybe has misheard it all these years and really thought that was the right word.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      I got a resume once with a colored block quote (the kind in a box dropped in a random place in giant letters while the regular text wraps around it) like:

      “Fergus is the finest teapot salesman I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with” – CEO of Teapot Enthusiasts

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        These sorts of quotes have been discussed on here before. Some people thought they were a good idea. I… was NOT one of them!

    5. Cody's Dad*

      I recently had a new grad apply and say in his cover letter three times how charasmatic he was!

      Another one was a cut and paste and couldn’t even be bothered to put the name of the position not company in the opening line.

      Someone else said they were relocating to be with their “beautiful fiance”… I wouldn’t have thought twice and accepted his reason for leaving his job but beautiful jumped out at me. I so wanted to email him. And ask for a picture to see if I would agree!

      But my all time favorite was the guy who put his name and a big picture of himself on the front cover with some tag line of saying “Let me walk you through my resume”. That one got a lot of attention bcse it was just absurd BUT the office vote was he was at least good looking!

      1. Cody's Dad*

        Oh and how could I forget the guy with “tightywhities69” as his email address!! Can u at least get a more appropriate email for your resume??!!

        2. Jadelyn*

          Ooh, that’s right up there with the guy I got once whose email was TRUCKNUTZ69 – yes, in all caps.

          1. Admin of Sys*

            I’m always fascinated by this, considering just how /easy/ it is to get email addresses. I mean, I get being attached to the weird address you came up with in college, and sure, use it as your primary, but why don’t people pick up a 2nd gmail account and just forward it / link it to their primary account?

            1. Jadelyn*

              Seriously. I have like…4 gmail addresses. My primary that I’ve had for a decade and am never changing, a professional one that uses a firstname.lastname structure (I got it early and have a very unique name, so it worked out), one for my erotica writing pseudonym, and one for my Etsy business. It takes like 2 seconds to make a new one, and another minute to set up the forwarding so you only have to check one of them. Why don’t people just do that?

        3. callietwo*

          I help people locate jobs for a state agency and one of my first clients had “ilike69doyoutoo” as an email.. she was 32 years old. I asked her how she thought that was working for her, and she said “I always get an interview”.

          Um.. then why are you here?

    6. Jadelyn*

      I liked the one that included a line:

      “i have great communication skills,”

      And that was the end of both sentence and paragraph. Capitalization and punctuation included from original.

      Then there was the one who listed one of her previous job titles as “Severely Emotionally Disturbed Teacher” – which I’m sure meant a teacher for special needs classes, but I thought the phrasing was hilarious.

      I also see a lot of people who have “costumer service experience”.

      1. Camellia*

        And maybe one day you will get lucky and see that for someone who worked for a Drama Department or volunteers for the local theater!

        I read a log of blogs where the blogger asks us to “bare with them” while they get to the point of the blog.

    8. Simone R*

      This is science specific, but I’ve seen a couple resumes that list lab skills so basic it would be like if someone had listed “writing with a pen” on their resume. Things like pipetting, centrifugation etc.

      1. nonymous*

        I feel like this would be okay for an entry level position where they are highlighting experience outside the classroom. Some people with science degrees should never work in a wet lab.

        Or they could be trying to optimize for keyword searches.

        1. Simone R*

          I dunno, if you have lab experience on your resume, I think it’s assumed. It makes them look a little naive about what is required for lab work. The people I’ve seen do this tend to be weak candidates anyways and also list higher up skills (PCR, gel extraction etc) which require pipetting and other functions to perform successfully. It doesn’t break a resume but I wouldn’t advise people to add it.

    10. Elle*

      My all-time favorite was a woman who had on her resume *three times* that she had experience caring for “elderly peppers.” I assume she meant people? Had it happened once, I would have chalked it up to a typo (still not good, but it happens). I’m still stumped about that one.

      1. Louise*

        That’s amazing I’m officially calling every old person an “elderly pepper” from now until forever.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      I’m okay with “demonstrated ability to” especially if they have concrete examples. If they don’t, it seems a little like they’re puffing themselves up.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Definitely. It was the list of adjectives that struck me. That said, if you have a demonstrated ability to do something, I’ll expect to see that in your description of the job where you demonstrated that ability.

    12. Huddled over tea*

      Oh man. I have so many of these. Starting with the ‘I have outstanding academic grades’ and then listed a range of Bs – Ds and ending with, under the Skills section, ‘I created this CV by myself’.

    14. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      My most memorable was a cover letter with “I have an IQ of 141” in it. I mean, come on, what was this person thinking? It still cracks me up to this day.

  16. Lughnassadh*

    Wow. My coworker walked over to my desk, shoved his phone in my face with his bank account information up and said “My wife is awesome. Look how much she’s saved.”

    I found it really tactless and honestly he’s a braggart and I can’t stand him. I feel awful for saying that.

    2. jmm*

      Don’t feel awful for saying that! His actions were way out of line with professional norms — and even in a social situation, WHO DOES THIS?!?

    4. Mpls*

      I have so many questions.

      Why is his wife the one saving? Was it not a joint effort? What were her tactics? Why was it such an accomplishment? Does she also work, or is she a SAH and has been awesome at home management? Is it spite of his actions or in conjunction?

      Also, really weird.

      1. Anonygoose*

        I assume she probably just handles the finances in their house. But yes, this is a really weird thing to do!

    8. Liane*

      If it happens again, I suggest responding with either jmm’s “WHO DOES THIS?!?” or a barrage of Mpls’ questions, also at the top of your lungs.
      …On second thought, that wouldn’t be professional.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Oh jeez, I guess it’s just one of those things where he felt the need to blurt and over-share.
      Weird, but take it with a grain of salt, say something like “How nice for you,” and ignore.

    10. Anlyn*

      Oof. The suave, witty part of me would have said something like “does your wife know you’re sharing her personal banking information with me?”. In reality, I’d be gaping going “huh…uh…um….”.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, maybe feel awful for a minute, then let it go.

      He’s tactless and clueless.
      His personal security habits leave something to be desired.
      He does not feel awful about these things.

      Next time he does this, put your hand up in front of the phone and say “TMI, TMI!” And don’t feel awful for even a second.

  17. all aboard the anon train*

    A student from my alma mater asked for an informational interview, and we have a call next week. As the one being asked questions, is there anything I should know? I’ve never given someone an informational interview before, and never did one when I was looking for a job.

    1. HigherEdPerson*

      I would just be prepared to talk about your job, your field and even your organization. And be prepared to ask him/her “So what can I talk about that would be helpful to you?”

    2. Jillociraptor*

      If it’s a current undergrad, you might also prepare to guide a little bit of the conversation. Because many undergrads are newer to professional settings, it might be hard for them to even know what to ask you. So, you might think through some points that you wish you had known when you started in your field, the things that have surprised you, stuff like that.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        She graduated in 2014, but hasn’t been working in the industry, but those are good things for me to keep in mind!

    3. apparently i have A Career*

      Oh man, thank you for asking this! I was just asked by my alma mater to come next month and do a series of informational interviews through their career center. I agreed, but my first thought was “I’m making everything up as I go along, I don’t know what to tell them!” It doesn’t help that I’m in the arts–both management and creation/performance, and everything in this field is very loose and driven by the individual–and that I only graduated in 2014. “I haven’t sunk into crippling debt and/or moved back in with my parents like people working in the arts are supposed to do, but there’s still time!”

    4. Chaordic One*

      I would think you might be prepare to tell the interviewer how your education helped you (and didn’t help you) in your job. Tell her what parts of your education you actually use, and what you had to learn on your own after you started your current job. Then get into how you actually got your job and what unique experiences you had that made you an attractive candidate for it.

  18. Carley*

    I’ve come to realise I may not take criticism very well.

    Context: I’ve recently started a new job, but have been working for over 5 years before this, so naturally there are some habits I’ve carried over in terms of work process or writing styles.

    Earlier this week I got some comments back regarding some work I submitted to my boss, it was along the lines of ‘need more attention to detail, x, y and z should be formatted this way’. Also some critique on parts that need to be improved.

    These were all valid points, and this was a new subject area so of course I /needed/ to be told some of this stuff. But my knee-jerk reaction was to get angry/annoyed (doesn’t help that my boss has a tendency to come across as a bit passive-aggressive in writing) and defensive (‘well how was I meant to know that’s how you want it?’).

    Of course I keep these thoughts to myself, and do as I’m asked. But I do worry that some of my attitude would show in the heat of the moment before I’ve had a chance to get over it. Plus it’s not exactly enjoyable to be feeling angry over everything!

    So…any advice on re-shaping my thinking patterns and…basically get some zen?

    1. Elfie*

      Ooh, that’s a good one! Tbh, I’m a little bit the same myself, especially if it’s in an area where I consider myself an expert. I keep telling myself that if it’s format or something, then it’s not really a criticism of me (unless I’ve been making the same mistake again and again), it’s just preference/new style guide/etc – and that’s helped. It also depends on how much I like/respect the person giving the feedback – when my OldBoss would give me feedback like that, I pretty much ignored him, because I really didn’t like and/or respect him. But my NewBoss is great, and I really respect her, so if she gives me feedback, I’d be much more inclined to take it in/not get upset. So maybe it’s not the feedback per se, but who’s giving it for you too? Other than that, just constantly reminding myself that nobody’s perfect, and sometimes other people do know better than me! Good luck!

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      Have you heard of the book “Mindset” by Carol Dweck? It’s all about our patterns of thinking, especially when we make mistakes or fail at things. I would really suggest reading it because it changed how I think about things like criticism.

    3. Lolli*

      When you are receiving a critique, remember they are just telling you how they want it done. They aren’t saying you should have already known this. It doesn’t really matter what their tone is or even if they really think you should already know this. There is no way for you to read their mind about what the end product should look like. So this is new information you want them to share with you so you can eventually both be on the same page. This is just more knowledge for your career and it will only benefit you to have this information as you move forward in your career. I’ve been around for a long time and I have learned a lot from even bad managers. Don’t forget to take deep breaths and keep your body relaxed and open to the critique. And reframe it in your head. It is a critique or new information about how they want it done. It is not a criticism of you.

    4. CM*

      I think the most valuable advice I’ve gotten about criticism is that it is a gift. If somebody cares enough to take the time to tell you how to improve, you should say thank you. If they don’t care, they will not bother. You’re already doing well by keeping your defensive thoughts to yourself. Saying “Thank you, I’ll remember that for next time” (even if it’s not what you feel like saying at the moment) will help too.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Did you ever notice that if you start by saying “thank you” you can feel shifts inside your body, like muscles unclench and so on?
        When I started doing this I was totally surprised by what a release it was, I felt like I was rising above the problem. I never expected that feeling.

    5. Jadelyn*

      I’m not good at taking feedback either. I tend to get defensive. The best way I’ve worked against that is to remind myself that I’d rather get feedback than get fired. The last job I had before this one, I got let go for mistakes I hadn’t even known I was making, because nobody took the time to talk to me about it until they were ready to fire me for them. So I remind myself that every time I get feedback, they’re giving me a chance to improve and fix things.

      Also, it might be useful to work on disentangling your sense of self-worth and identity from your work product. I know that for me, a huge part of my issues with accepting criticism comes from the fact that I over-identify with my work, so criticism of the work feels very personal to me, triggering my defensive response. So I have to remind myself, it’s not about me, it’s about the tasks I’ve done. It’s about the product, not the person.

    6. Not a Morning Person*

      It is hard to take and accept criticism when so many of us identify with our work product. Something that has worked for me is to remind myself that I am “new at this.” I know how to do the tasks the way we did them at “old job” but when new to an organization, then of course I don’t know how they like for things to be done. Maybe it can help to think of yourself as the newbie who is still learning the ropes. The people giving you feedback/criticism are most likely not thinking that they are giving you hard criticism, but feedback that will make it more likely that you’ll meet expectations. It’s hard to learn every style preference or culture expectation. Lots of managers/peers don’t know what they need to tell someone because often they know it so well that it’s not even in their conscious that not everyone knows all about “the way we do it here.” Remind yourself that it’s okay not to know everything right at the start and try to respond with a “Wow! Thanks for letting me know!” vs. “Wow! Why didn’t you just tell me that already!!@!??!@!@!” Good luck!

    7. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh I can empathize so much! I recommend the book “thanks for the feedback” which gave me a few tools to be more open to feedback and receive it with less emotion.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Oddly, I have found promising myself never to make the same mistake twice, reeeally helped me to keep a sense of proportion.
      I have kept samples of Correct Item so when I have to do it again, I get it right. I also make notes on the samples, “watch out for this, check that, etc” Date the sample. Stuff changes. When you look back at your sample you will want to know how old it is and if you should look at a more current sample or double check something.

      Know that this gets easier. You might catch yourself thinking, “Oh is Current Mistake the worst ever? Noooo. Three mistakes ago was The Worst Ever. And I lived through it, so I will live through this, too.”
      Don’t be afraid to take preemptive steps. “Hey, Boss I am doing the Quarterly Report for Teapots. Do you have a sample I should refer to? [OR Did you want changes to that report in formatting or info?]”

    9. This Daydreamer*

      Try focusing on the feedback not as criticism, but as your boss telling you what is different about your new job and what she wants you to do. You’re not doing anything wrong so much as adapting to a new workplace.

    10. smokey*

      If you can look for opportunities to learn constantly, criticism becomes the most welcome thing in the world because it’s the most straightforward way to get someone to teach you something.

  19. Secret Agent (Wo)man*

    Looking for advice/stories about raises when changing jobs and Cost of Living is a factor.
    (and maybe a reality check for my expectations?)

    My current job is in a pretty low COL location and am looking in a couple “regular” COL area (like not NYC, Seattle, DC etc.) but from several (maybe reliable) online calculators the cost of living difference is about 15%-20% higher (can for sure confirm that housing and taxes are more in these cities/states). Normally I would consider moving for a min of 15%ish raise but this would essentially just be scaling my salary to the new cities. Is asking for a 30% raise ridiculous? The markets do seem to be offering these salaries but sometimes it is hard to tell*. So far I haven’t be coerced into sharing my salary, but I have gotten a couple of offers that have been like the COL difference + like 2-5% which was not worth it to me at the time but now…maybe? (And I didn’t even negotiation because I’m a big weenie, my bad) All these cities are much larger than where I am now so I feel like they’ll just move on to the next candidate if I ask for too much. So what do you all think, should I be negotiating better, are my expectations just out of line, have I just not found the right job yet?

    *Titles at a lot of the companies I’m looking at are Engineer, maybe a Sr. Engineer and of course an Engineering Manager, so a new grad and someone with 15 years of experience could have the same title but obviously not get paid the same so ranges are huge and who knows what’s going on in between.

    Extra context: I like my job but the company is not very stable and I don’t like the location, so while I definitely want to leave, I’m not in a huge rush and can wait for the right job. I’m a Teapot Engineer and want to move into an Iced Teapot Engineer role, I have 4 years of experience and even though the company has frozen wages for the last 2 years they have given me a 10% and a 5% raise for those years (now I feel guilty for looking) so I am getting close to possibly being a smidge overpaid.

    1. ThatGirl*

      This may be helpful – hopefully!

      When I was a few years into my career I moved from small-town Kentucky (very low COL) to the Chicago suburbs (considerably higher COL). I had been looking at apartments and what was available, how much it cost, etc – so I basically ran a new budget with the higher rent costs and my other expenses (and tacked on more per month for gas and groceries) and then extrapolated from there – how much would I need to make to afford that within my comfort zone? Even for my relatively low-paying industry the norm was a good $10k more per year because of the higher COL.

      It proved really helpful when I got the offer, although I wouldn’t recommend the wording I used I was able to negotiate a higher pay rate based on that. You of course also have to factor in what the jobs in that area pay in general, and what you’re worth – but higher COL areas know they are, generally, and should be willing to pay accordingly.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve moved several times with COL changes, here’s what I did in case at all helpful. First, great that you’re looking at numerous salary/cost of living calculators – sometimes they are really varied in their numbers, which is really challenging; but when they’re pretty well in line with each other it gives you more confidence in the numbers and what you need to make to have a comparable quality of life. Second, using those, decide what the minimum salary is that you’d be willing to accept to move to that location. Knowing hard and fast, internally, that the salary must be $xx or above is a really helpful baseline to keep in mind for the evaluation of opportunities.

      Third, change your thinking from asking for a raise to that level or above, to needing that level or above to consider the position – they’re not giving you a raise, they’re offering you a salary for the position and negotiating (or not) within their internal salary range. Finally, realize that presenting your salary needs is a normal part of the interviewing/offering/hiring process, don’t think of it as you asking for something unusual or unreasonable. If you have your baseline minimum acceptable salary as your guide, then it’s pretty straightforward for you – 1) does it meet my minimum, no – decline, yes – decide if you want to accept or negotiate further. The fact that you’re not in a rush is great, you can take your time and wait for the right opportunity and not feel pressured to take something that doesn’t work for you. Good luck.

      1. CM*

        Exactly. It’s not a raise. Research the market for that area and ask for a salary based on that. You should only compare it to your current salary for purposes of calculating your COL increase and how the new job will affect your finances.

    3. Sibley*

      Also, when someone asks how much you currently make, you can respond with something like “due to the location and differences in overall COL, my current salary is not comparable with expected salaries for this role and location”. Prior salary shouldn’t matter anyway, but in this case it REALLY doesn’t matter.

    4. Lora*

      Depends on what kind of engineer. Mechanical & Civil typically make less, Electrical usually in the middle, Chemical pays highest, Software can be all over the place. The PE doesn’t really add much salary-wise I’m told.

      Here’s what pharma ChemEng gets an engineer/senior eng:
      Cleveland, OH: $55-75k
      Boston MA: $100-140k
      really middle of nowhere: $50-60k

      If you do ChemEng energy:
      Middle of nowhere: $150-200k
      Houston TX: >$250k, not completely sure, maybe $300k

      MechEng:
      Cleveland OH: $50-75k
      Boston MA: $80-95k

      not sure about other fields.

  20. Robert*

    My new job (9-5 office job) just asked me to free up my evening hours so I can be available more. This is a big deal because I am an only child and help take care of my parents, who are getting older and have a few health issues. A lot of the time they need me on a short notice (doctor visits scheduled a day or two in advance), and I am looking for the best way to broach this with my bosses that’s both firm but not overly aggressive or confrontational. Also, when I interviewed I asked about the work life balance, and they told me it’s very laid back 9-5 job.

    This is not negotiable to me: if it’s between working late and helping my dad get to/from a doctor’s appointment, I don’t care how much overtime I get, I’m going to be with Dad. I’ve said that gently but firmly to previous bosses (something like “Boss, I need to take tomorrow morning off. I know it’s short notice, but it’s a family thing. I’m okay with rearranging the rest of my schedule to make up the time.”) and they’ve been okay with it. My old boss’ father had the same health conditions my dad does — we actually bonded over that a bit, as weird as it may sound.

    I’m considering going in and telling my boss this isn’t negotiable, but I’m unsure of my ability to phrase that well. I was thinking something like, “Joe, regarding working evenings, I help take care of my parents, and I sometimes they need me to drive them somewhere, like a doctor appointment. I’m an only child and not being there for them isn’t an option. What kind of backup plans can we make for this?” But that doesn’t address my boss telling me that it’s a purely 9-5 job back in the interview.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would say something like “I accepted this position with the understanding that it was a 9-5 position. I have obligations in the evening that I cannot change and thus cannot ‘free up my evenings’ for work on a regular basis. Is this a new requirement for the position?” I wouldn’t get into the specifics of what those obligations are.

      1. Robert*

        I like this. To the point and calls him out.

        I tried a less firm version and got pushed back upon. Here’s the conversation (I related it to a friend immediately after hearing it because it sounded so nuts to me).

        Boss: So for the chocolate teapot repair project, we’ll need you on hand in the evenings sometimes.
        Me: I can do that, but sometimes I need to do things for my parents in the evening.
        Boss: I’m going to have to ask you to reschedule then, because we are all going to be working. None of us get to see our families much. Isn’t that right, Wakeen?
        Wakeen (sitting right by): Yeah. I’m really stressed out right now.
        Boss: Seriously, this comes first.

        A firm, matter of fact “no, and also explain why this changed between the interview and now” may work better.

          1. Robert*

            Don’t think I don’t know how ridiculous it sounds. Being in one of the largest cities in the USA, there’s plenty of people who have a mentality that since they sacrificed a lot to get to the big city, everyone else needs to too. Personally, I work to live — I work my ass off, but there’s limits.

        2. who?*

          I would definitely follow up with your boss and say something along the lines of, “I think I gave you the wrong impression the other day when we spoke about evening hours. When I said I need to do things for my parents in the evenings, what I meant is that I am their sole caregiver and sometimes need to be available to take them to their doctors appointments and other health-related commitments. This is not a matter of simply wanting to see my family more often.” And then ask for more information about how often you’d be working in the evenings, how flexible the schedule is, etc. Detective Amy Santiago’s wording above is really good.

          I know you mention below that you are not actually a sole caregiver because your parents are still self-sufficient, but unfortunately I don’t think your boss will take your request seriously unless you use this term. I think others are correct in that saying you’re the only child doesn’t really convey the message you’re trying to get across, and I would say the same of your wording above.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yeah, I don’t think he understood what you were trying to say. Of course being more specific about the situation may not change his mind, but maybe if there are ways to work around it, like coming in earlier than 9, he might be open to that.

            1. Robert*

              I’m open to altering my hours when I have to drive mom or dad somewhere. Gonna say that.

              I’m not open to skipping it entirely. If my boss gave me a hard “no” I’d put in my resignation effective immediately.

              Given that he’s said stuff like “by working here, you have to give up some things” I expect that hardline “no” from him. But we’ll see.

        3. nonymous*

          you need to communicate somehow that the commitments in the evenings are stuff that you would use FMLA/sick leave for if they were scheduled for during regular hours.

          Also the phrase that you may be looking for is “I am a caregiver for my elderly parents”. My boss pushes back on that one, though.

          Temper this by offering to work during times that your coworkers with kids resist. I’ve had good luck in the past by offering to cover Sat/Sun AM shifts or AM shifts in general. Reasonable Wakeens are aware that they can’t have both before/after-school freedom and family weekends in a company with mandatory OT.

          1. Robert*

            Also the phrase that you may be looking for is “I am a caregiver for my elderly parents”. My boss pushes back on that one, though.

            Isn’t caregiver a term with some legal implications? My reticence toward using that one is because this is a very large, very bureaucratic company. My boss may actually challenge me to formally prove it somehow, and that would backfire. I will talk to him Monday, but that phrase would be my fallback.

            And I’m open to hearing what he will say on it (again I’m fine with coming early or staying late to make up the time) before I make any judgments, though I’m not happy about him giving me a completely different story during the interview. My dad’s had multiple strokes and heart attacks, and I don’t know how much more time I have with him. If my boss says “no, we can’t rearrange things” to this, I’m job hunting again.

    2. T3k*

      I wouldn’t know how to word it exactly, but I’d use something like “sole caregiver” instead of “only child” because in my head, saying the latter would spring up the follow-up question “are there any other relatives that can help?”

      1. Friday*

        +1 on “sole caregiver,” and state that you have daily responsibilities for caregiving in the evenings as it sounds like it’s frequent enough that you wouldn’t want to plan on setting Tuesdays for working late, or committing to a random day or two a week for late work, etc. Your life right now is such that you need to be available to your parents every evening, regardless of whether they have a doctor’s appointment or not.

        One thing though – for morning last-minute doc appointments, you say you always committed to making up the time. How have you made that time up in the past? Was it with evening work? Going forward, would those appointments be something you can handle with whatever your new regular PTO structure is or on those occasions, will you be committing to evening work? Make sure it’s all as clear as possible with your new boss how you usually handle those situations and how you will be able to handle them going forward. Best of luck to you and your parents.

        1. Robert*

          Yeah. The thing is that they’re largely self sufficient still. So I’ve shied away from describing myself as “sole caregiver,” but I’m the only relative or friendly neighbor in the area under 60. Mostly what I do is drive them when it’s dark out.

          In my entire working career (only five years long, but still) I’ve only had to leave during the workday for a health emergency once. And in that case any boss who isn’t completely heartless will understand “I have to leave. I just got a call from the ER, my dad’s there.” If they don’t, easiest explanation for why you left a job ever, and I have savings. I’m not worried about that.

          On morning appointments: I’ve never been told same day. So I would grab my boss at some point and explain. Then I’d work late the next day or two; say 11-7.

          1. K*

            If you do end up staying late at work for an emergency project and your parents are competent but uncomfortable driving at night, call them a taxi/Uber/Lyft or medical transportation service. As someone in close proximity to caregiving (I’m an elder law attorney), I see a lot of kids feeling like they’re the only ones able to provide a service to their parents. That’s frequently not the case.

            1. nonymous*

              Do you have any advice for adult kids who have parents willing to neglect self without child around? My mom refused to go to the Dr for 7 years because I wasn’t there to go in with her. She’s not elderly, just coddled and stubborn.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Is there an urgent reason she needs to go? Sincere question, I do a chose your battles thing. If there is no pressing reason, then it’s not the hill to die on. {FWIW, only child and had two stubborn parents. I had to wait for the sky to fall down before things changed. Sometimes that is the only answer.)

              2. K*

                If you feel like you have to take her for your own peace of mind, then schedule ALL appointments on 1 day with enough time in-between for the docs to be running late. Fear can be hard to overcome.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              Here we have free medical rides for seniors. They can make a donation if they chose or not.

    3. TexanJudge*

      I think it is fair to ask for realistic expectations before giving them an ultimatum. Before putting my job on the line I would want to know if we were talking 2 hours or 6, in the office or remote,etc.

      1. Robert*

        Makes sense. I’ll pull him aside next week.

        I’m not going to give any ultimatums, but “work comes first” (what he said, word for word) is not an acceptable answer for me.

        Seeing your own dad have a stroke leaves a strong impression on you.

    4. Saviour Self*

      If you’re an FMLA eligible company, you could also go down that road, but I would start by being explicitly clear that you have unmoving evening commitments as a sole caregiver to aging parents. Detective Amy Santiago’s wording is good for that.

        1. Robert*

          Yup. Some companies are okay with off the books arrangements but some aren’t. My old job was at a startup, and they we’re okay with giving me the time off without me putting it in and depleting my PTO balance: so I’d bring Dad to an appointment and back, and reach the office at 11. I’d work until 7, and we’d consider that even. Don’t think this company is that loose.

          Also, I know of intermittent FMLA, but does that apply for taking care of parents?

          1. Jadelyn*

            FMLA is FMLA, regardless of whether it’s taken block or intermittent, and always has the same requirements regardless of how you’re planning to structure the time off. So the question would be if you meet the criteria for FMLA in general (caring for a family member who has a serious health condition, both terms “family member” and “serious health condition” as defined by FMLA standards), and then if you do, you can elect to take it intermittently.

          2. fposte*

            Yes, it absolutely can. DOL explicitly mentions transporting people to the doctor, in fact. So FMLA is definitely something worth discussing when you hit your year mark

            1. Asile*

              Very definite. I started intermittent FMLA earlier this year to accompany my mom to doctor appointments so I could take notes and actually KNOW what was going on, because she didn’t seem able to give me all the details after the appointment. At that time, she was able to drive herself, which was great because I lived/worked on one side of town, she lived on the other side, and her doctor was in the middle. She then had an incident that put a restriction on her driving, so I’ve also been driving her to and from most appointments (sometimes she got a ride from someone else to lessen my time away from work).

              Besides having worked for your employer for at least 1 year and your employer being covered under FMLA (have to have at least 50 employees working within a 75-mile radius), your parent has to have a “serious medical condition” and be under continuous medical care. If your parents are just going for routine appointments, you probably won’t be eligible for leave under FMLA. But if it’s a case like my mother – an existing condition got worse and we couldn’t figure out why or how to get it back under control – then the doctors will probably be able to certify it.

              Check with your HR Department for the forms you’ll need to have your parents’ doctor(s) complete, or you can view the sample certification forms on the Department of Labor website.

              1. Robert*

                My dad has some serious medical conditions which would definitely qualify, which is why I’m not willing to put him on an Uber. I need to talk to his doctors so I get the full story. Also, Access-A-Ride has been awful here. My wheelchair-bound grandma used it once, and that time the driver just drove home and left the bus there for like 2 hours.

  21. Fabulous*

    One of our newer sales reps resigned last night stating that today would be his last day… except he showed up this morning in shorts and flip flops – which is too much even for our super casual office – and they sent him home.

    Btw, the email subject he sent was ” Letter of Recognition” instead of Resignation.

    I’m betting he doesn’t come back, LOL.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Recognition – Ha! Thanks for sharing!
      (I guess he got recognized by higher-ups for coming in dressed too casually…)

    3. Liane*

      “I am resigning my position effective [date], in recognition of the fact that this company is not a cultural fit for me. I have learned a lot here, and wish Company and its employees the best.”

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        This is basically what I said to my manager when resigning from a sales job at a “cool” and “trendy” company! I was immediately escorted out.

    4. AMPG*

      Laughing at the “Letter of Recognition.” One of my former direct reports resigned via a form letter that began, “Dear [Insert name].” This was in keeping with our time working together.

    5. Not a Morning Person*

      Yes, and he probably thought, what’s the worst that can happen? I’ve already resigned!
      I know someone who did something similar as far as dress. He knew that layoffs were coming and he knew he was on the list and the date he’d be notified. (I know how he knew, but it’s not relevant for the anecdote.) For two weeks leading up to his notification date, he wore a suit and tie, occasionally that was expected, but not necessarily required. On the day of his notification/layoff date, he wore t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers, not the normal attire for his office! And he spent the day going around and talking to the folks who were also on “the list”. He’s an awesome guy.

    6. JennyFair*

      I had someone call me and say, “thanks for all your help the last two years, please tell the boss today’s my last day.”

      We knew he was leaving, because his new employer had called us, but, well, let’s just hope one day he wants a reference, lol.

    7. Fabulous*

      UPDATE: I JUST FOUND OUT HE ACTUALLY CAME BACK TO THE OFFICE IN PANTS AND IS WORKING HIS LAST DAY!

      1. KatiePie*

        I’m surprised the directive was, “Go home and change and come back.” We have a casual dress code here, but if someone pulled something of related significance here on their last day, it would be, “Here’s your check. Happy trails.”

  22. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Interview advice: You’re filling out an application and they ask supplemental questions asking you to detail experience in XYZ (in this case, “describe how you dealt with a difficult interpersonal situation with a coworker/client, how did you resolve the conflict?”) You put in your difficult-coworker story and get an interview. In the interview they ask the same question in person. Do you tell the same story again, or do you come up with a different experience to talk about?

    1. Fabulous*

      I’d maybe start off with an abbreviated version of that story, but maybe have a backup situation available if they ask.

      1. CM*

        I think you could delve into the original story more than you did in the application. But I agree with having a backup.

        1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          I’ve often wondered about this question. How should you answer it if you’ve never really had a clash with a co-worker?

          2. CM*

            I also think that you can take a few liberties with the question. If you don’t have a situation that’s directly on point, you can try telling a story about a time that you disagreed about something work-related with a coworker, or a time that you were in a difficult position at a volunteer job, or a time that a customer yelled at you. If you really can’t think of a single example of a time when you had a conflict with another person and had to resolve it somehow, maybe sit down with a friend and brainstorm so they can help you draw out some stories.

        2. DBG*

          Yes, I’ve done that.
          I think the key is to accurately discuss the issues – so if you mishandled it, say so and explain what you’d do differently. They’re not going to be impressed if you talk about how Wakeen was a terrible person for ten minutes.

    2. Nonprofit manager*

      I would share the same story, but preface it by stating that you wrote about in your supplemental application questions. The reason I suggest this is because we use supplemental questions as an initial screening tool and often only HR reviews those. So if it’s a good story, you want subsequent interviewers to hear it. Have a back-up ready in case everyone interviewing you is familiar with it.

      1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        That was my feeling too. (My spouse is the one who had the interview, for a job with the city.)

    3. Fretful Accountant*

      In a government setting the people who review the supplemental questions are separate from the people interviewing, so you could get away with using the same story.

  23. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s been an emotionally and physically draining week.

    1. I have a recruiter that’s helped a few of my coworkers move on or start a new process. I’m feeling put out bc he helped them but ghosted on me. What’s the nicest way to convey this message without burning a bridge?
    “I’ve referred several of my colleagues to you and you’ve been helpful to all of theml. However, I haven’t heard from you since our last call on 7/17. Is there something missing in my application that can move along the process? Or is there another recruiter I can work with?” I *know* this is harsh and abrasive, but I am a little annoyed that he’s benefiting from my help–and yes I know I was warned about this a few weeks back when I posted but I referred these people before then.

    2. Not a lot happened but a lot did if that makes sense. Good things happened for me but I also got a taste of some not so nice things. I’m also extremely, maybe irrationally pissed at something my boss said about my mgr, knowing it would get back to him but he can’t say anything back. It just seems so passive aggressive and deliberate..ugh.

    3. #1 with a few past incidents, makes me feel like I’m being used. Helping someone get a job, passing this contact along, passing along a really good opportunity to someone else who resigned last week…I’m kicking myself for all of that now.

    1. Fabulous*

      Maybe reach out to the recruiter and say, “I am checking in since I haven’t heard from your since our last call over three weeks ago on 7/17. Do you need anything else from me to get this process started? I’d really like to move on from my position as soon as possible. What can I do to help move things along? Or is another recruiter available who may be able to assist me instead? Thanks in advance for your reply.”

      I think that’s a little less harsh but still firm in your expectations.

    3. Mephyle*

      Seconding what Lily said. I think it’s honest and productive and it doesn’t sound harsh or abrasive to me.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      On #3, remember the person who ignored you is NOT the same person as those you helped. Yes, he got money in his pocket from placing people. But there is more to the story, you helped other people move along in their careers. This is an investment in your career and your life. It will come back to you. Not because of this mysterious thing called karma, but because in reality people remember who did right by them. And they do not forget it.
      No regrets, okay? Use it to strengthen your sense that something will fall together for you, too. It just will. Keep being a good person.

  24. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Favorite podcasts or free audiobooks (most classic literature is in the public domain and thus free audio on YouTube?)

    No joke, I am OUT of podcasts and books!

    2. jmm*

      My favorite podcasts: Fresh Air, This American Life, Ask a Clean Person, Here’s the Thing, Awesome Etiquette, The Popcast with Knox and Jamie, How to do Everything
      (I also need to listen to all the things, so I don’t have to listen to co-workers’ phone conversations)

      1. Windchime*

        How I Built This
        How to Be Amazing
        Fresh Air
        This American Life
        Seth Meyers (it usually contains the “Closer Look” and an interview from his normal show)

        I’m trying to take a break from political or upsetting podcasts right now, but when I’m in the mood I like Pod Save America.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      This may get shut down and encouraged to be moved to the weekend free-for-all, but I guess it’s tangentially work-related?

      A few off-the-beaten-path ones I’d recommend are:
      The Sauce
      Shut Up and Listen with Heather Matarazzo
      Nancy
      Hidden Messages Podcast
      Talkhouse Film

    4. LawBee*

      Podcasts:
      My Brother My Brother and Me (NSFW, so headphones are a must)
      Sawbones (and many of the McElroy family of podcasts – mcelroyshows.com)
      99pi.org
      Criminal
      You Must Remember This

    6. CatCat*

      Podcast: The Great Detectives of Old Time Radio (my favorite are the “Yours Truly, Johnny Dollar” mysteries).

    7. Emily S.*

      Ooh, I have a list for you.

      -Storycorps podcast (SO good, heartwarming stories!)
      -How I Built This (interviews with entrepreneurs, very interesting)
      -The Kitchen Sisters Present (good stories, some food-related)
      -Here’s the Thing with Alec Baldwin (long interviews with interesting people)

    8. Alex*

      I hate recommending podcasts to other people, because you never know what they’re into or what kind sense of humor they have (or don’t). When I’m at work I like to listen to fun/funny shows such as 2 Dope Queens, Another Round, Black Ass Podcast, Fake the Nation, Friends Like Us, Half Hour Intern, Happier With Gretchen Rubin, I Seem Fun The Diary of Jen Kirkman, Gettin’ Grown, Lexicon Valley, The Sporkful, WTF with Marc Maron. I also do listening to news-y ones too and niche interests that probably no one else is interested in. Podcasts are so great.

    9. sometimeswhy*

      I use Overdrive and my local public library for audio books! And my mum does too and she lives in the sticks.

      1. Nanc*

        Thumbs up to the library and Overdrive! If your library subscribes to Hoopla that’s another great resource for audio books.

    10. SophieChotek*

      Second Library audio-books. My library is pretty good about that.

      If you are into “geeky” things some of my friends like the pod-cast “Good Nerd, Bad Nerd”…

      If you are interested in deeper thinking, etc. two friends of mine mentioned a blog/podcast by Dr. Greg Boyd, called ReKnew. (He is a somewhat controversial Protestant theologian.)

    11. Paige Turner*

      The Best Show! (Not technically a podcast but a live show with years and years of archives) I also like Beautiful/Anonymous, and Bandcamp for albums/live recordings from comedians like Hari Kondabolu and Rhea Butcher and also audiobooks. All good for work and for commuting.

    13. The OG Anonsie*

      The ones I have on my phone:

      My Bother, My Brother, And Me (this one is classed as an “advice” podcast but it’s really just goofy and funny, it’s hard to even explain why.)

      The Adventure Zone (made by the same guys as MBMBAM, it’s D&D games that are also goofy and funny and still interesting even if you’re not into D&D)

      The Code Switch (American race and culture specifically as it applies to cross-cultural understanding and communication. From NPR)

      Bad With Money (Gaby Dunn’s financial advice podcast which could be classed as “finance for the rest of us.” This isn’t how to open an IRA, it’s dealing with the messy bits and the desperation.)

      Pop Culture Happy Hour (also from NPR, general pop culture discussion including Linda Holmes. She’s from Television Without Pity and if you liked TWP, you’ll probably like PCHH)

      The Read (another pop culture one, this one more angled towards hip hop gossip)

    14. Strategic Analyst*

      Rhe Joe Rogan experience bas interesting guests from time to time. They cover a reallyy broad spectrum from fitness and nutrition to spirituality to politics.
      My favorite was them talking to a guy who talked about evidence for a comet hitting Earth about 12-13,000 years ago, the relation to the Atlantis myth, and the inplications for our understanding of human civilization.

    15. Lady Alys*

      BBC’s “In Our Time” podcast – to say that the range of topics is vast is a sad sad understatement.
      “History of English” podcast – starts back with the Indo-European language tree and now, 96 episodes later, he’s made it to England.
      “Make me Smart with Kai and Molly” and “Planet Money,” both from NPR, both quirky in a good way, and generally short.
      “Good Food” from KCRW in Los Angeles – cooking, food, ag policy, culture, so interesting.
      Tim Ferriss Show – I’m the first to admit that he’s a bit self-absorbed but he’s pretty relentlessly positive and I like that sometimes.

    16. Southern Ladybug*

      I don’t think this has been mentioned yet. If you enjoyed The West Wing, The West Wing Weekly podcast is amazingly awesome.

    17. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Real Crime Profile
      Hollywood and Crime
      Locked Up Abroad
      Cold Case Files
      S-town
      Surprisingly Awesome

      And since I am a Bravo junkie:
      Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald (NSFW)
      Heather Dubrow’s World
      Bitch Sesh
      Reality Life with Kate Casey

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        I like “You Must Remember This” which deals with Hollywood history in the 20the century. There is a theme to each season. My favorite so far is the series on the Blacklist in Hollywood, and I also loved the Manson Family season. It really brings out interesting perspectives and lesser known episodes.

    19. veggiewolf*

      On my iPod: This American Life; Fresh Air; Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me; Code Switch; Planet Money; Welcome to Night Vale; Radiolab; NPR Politics Podcast; Amateur Traveler; Join Us in France; You Bet Your Garden; Sunday School Dropouts; Polyamory Weekly; Orange Lounge Radio; The Bobby Blackwolf Show; Serial; Invisibilia.

      Oh, and The Sporkful. And Dear Prudence. I have a bit of a podcast habit.

      1. veggiewolf*

        Forgot two: Beautiful/Anonymous and Game Buoy. The former is definitely worth adding to your list.

    20. Her Grace*

      Like short stories? Try the Escape Artists podcasts: Escape Pod, PodCastle and PseudoPod (SF, F and H)

  25. Two months in*

    Two months in and my new job is not as advertised. How long do I give it for things to calm down or bail?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It may not need to be a choice you need to make right now. I would probably start non-aggressively applying to other jobs. You don’t have to defnitely plan on quitting, but you can see what else is out there. So if a job comes up that gives you the opportunity to leave, you can leave. And if not, you can see whether things will, in fact, “calm down.”

      1. Two months in*

        Yeah, I just hate the idea of going back through the job search process so soon but I think that’s the only way I can feel any sense of control over this situation.

      1. Two months in*

        The manager hired me with the intention of shifting the role from program coordinator to project manager, but there is no buy in from other management or the staff as a whole, they want me to do things the way my predecesor did. I spend most of my time copy editing and chasing down correspondence instead. Too much time is spend putting out fires. Most of the staff members are either new to the organization or new to their roles due to internal reorganization and it’s been complete chaos. It has become apparent after several conversations that my manager does not actually have any control or influence to make the intended change to my role.

        I intended to write more in my original question but got interrupted in the middle of it and had no idea how long it would be until I could continue.

        1. Two months in*

          Sorry, above second sentence should say “instead of coordinating or managing anything.”

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      It’s not as advertised, but is it something you can do and work with? I’d give it another month or two. But I’d also keep my eye on the jobs boards.

      1. Two months in*

        I would not have taken this job if it had been described accurately in the position description and interviews. The job as it is right now is a step backwards on my career path.

        I have had longer tenures at previous jobs so I’m not worried about looking like a job hopper but I am concerned that if I have to justify it (can’t pretend it didn’t happen if I apply for another government job), I’ve allowed sufficient time to make a judgment about poor fit.

  26. CDN HR*

    What is your opinion on candidates who select a time for a phone interview and then are driving throughout the interview?

    I would like to make clear that they select the time. I provide them with a list of times that I am available, they can select whichever one they want (Doodle) and I say in the e-mail that if they are unavailable at any of those times to let me know.

    Frankly, I become frustrated with it. I feel as though if they wanted the job they would give the phone interview their full attention. Not to mention that I consider it a safety hazard and they usually provide worse answers. T

    1. Saviour Self*

      Yeah, this would really irk me as well. I’ve not had it happen but I’m sure it will at some point. Are you sure that they’re actually driving and not just sitting in their car? When I was job hunting, if I couldn’t get away for the afternoon I would take phone screens in my car in the parking lot so as to not alert my employer.

      I don’t know that there’s anything you can do about it.

      1. fposte*

        Yup. I’d do it politely, because if it’s hands-free it’s technically legal in my state, but you know, so was drunk driving once upon a time.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I have to ask – this is something that always gets me in these kinds of discussions, I’m not trying to be a jerk, promise – if it’s hands-free, then how is it any different than having a conversation with a passenger riding in the car with you? Taking your attention off the road long enough to make or answer a call could be problematic, but the talking itself, if it’s hands-free, is exactly the same as having someone in the car with you and talking to them, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell. Especially if you’ve got a car that does bluetooth with your phone and runs it through the car speakers, and has call answer buttons on the steering wheel like some do. Actually I’d think it would be *less* distracting since you don’t have the urge to pay attention to any of the somatic cues that usually go along with in-person conversations – you’re not gesturing or turning your head to glance at them.

          That said, I’d never recommend doing that for an interview, since you want to be able to really focus on the conversation in that case, but for casual talking, I just don’t get the difference between “talking to someone via hands-free” and “talking to the person in the passenger seat”.

          1. fposte*

            It’s not completely different (hence restrictions about young drivers carrying passengers in some states) but it’s got some significant differences. For one thing, talking on the phone is cognitively different than speaking to people face to face; the problem isn’t the hands but the conversation. For another, people in your car are likelier to be aware of the traffic situation than somebody on the phone and to shut up or alert the driver, and people are more willing to stop talking to a person present than to end a phone call. (There’s also the societal question of the impact on the roads if passenger carrying were outlawed, since there’d likely be a considerable uptick in vehicles on the road.)

            I’d also say that you don’t have to outlaw everything that’s a problem to outlaw anything that’s a problem. I recall protests that passenger distraction was an issue too being brought up in pushback against tighter drunk driving laws. And it is, but I don’t think that’s a reason for loose drunk driving laws.

            It’ll probably be a moot point in not too many years from now as we all telephone each other drunkenly in our self-driving cars.

            1. Jadelyn*

              Is there research showing that it’s truly that different cognitively between talking in person vs on the phone? I’ll definitely grant you re passengers realizing when to shut up for a minute vs people being willing to either let there be dead air, or get off the phone, though.

              I’m not quite “on” with the comparisons to drunk driving laws, though. Not sure why. I guess I still just don’t think there’s enough of a qualitative difference between conversations in different media to justify banning one if not the other.

              But as you say, once the cars are smarter than we are, it won’t really matter anymore, will it?

          2. Ramona Flowers*

            It’s not a normal chat though, it’s a job interview. Would you feel able to focus on a job interview while also concentrating on driving the interviewers around in your car?

            1. Jadelyn*

              I very specifically said “I’d never recommend doing that for an interview, since you want to be able to really focus on the conversation in that case” and made a distinction between conversing hands-free in the car versus trying to do an interview while driving.

      2. Kathenus*

        I’d definitely end the interview, be clear that it’s for safety reasons and because I’d like to have their full attention for the interview, and offer to set up an alternative time when they can be available. I wouldn’t take them out of the running if they’re willing to reschedule in a timely manner, but it would be a yellow flag to their judgment.

      3. Lemon Zinger*

        In my state, talking on the phone while driving is not illegal. However, doing so while driving a university vehicle (a frequent occurrence in my role) is against university policy. I imagine that we would end a phone interview if a candidate was driving while on the call.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t necessarily take them out of the running, but I do think that’s strange (and, frankly, dangerous—distracted drivers are far more likely to get into an accident). I have taken phone interviews in my (non-moving) car before—even those were times picked by the interviewer and not by me.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I would be worried about the drivers and others’ safety — how can the candidate concentrate well on the interview and drive? But I’m not sure if I would totally take the candidate out of the running, especially if the candidate does a good job. On the other hand, if the job requires a lot of driving…(for the company) that would definitely make a difference….

    4. Jadelyn*

      I’ve been on hand for a phone screen when my manager was doing one and the candidate answered while driving. My manager simply said “I’m going to let you go, then, please call me when you get to your destination so we can reschedule.” and hung up.

      This person did not, as I recall, get moved forward in the process.

      1. Lana Kane*

        It might be kind of a hardass thing to do, but I agree with your manager. Aside from safety issues, to me it just shows poor judgment. Even if you’re just a passenger, road noise comes through and can make the call harder. Why would you do that when you’re trying to put your best foot forward? Not to mention, it means you’re not alone in the car and others can listen in.

    5. CDN HR*

      Very interesting responses thank you! The have all been blue tooth/hands free as far as I can tell. It is illegal to drive while operating a handheld device in Ontario

    6. The OG Anonsie*

      This would drive me crazy, but I have found there is a certain kind of person who finds that driving is the best time to handle phone calls since they can’t do anything else. They’re not driving because they weren’t free, they are probably scheduling that time specifically so they can handle it when they know they’ll be driving.

      Which I personally hate, but just giving them flexibility isn’t going to eliminate it.

      1. Asile*

        What are the thoughts of just being IN the car, but not driving? I’m going to have to be in this position, just to be able to do the interview without making the recruiter wait until crazy late in the evening. I just don’t think the nearby Panera or Starbucks will be quiet enough for the call.

        1. Windchime*

          I’ve done several interviews this way. I make sure the car is turned off (or at least there isn’t noisy AC blasting) and used my hand-held rather than the Bluetooth. The interviewer didn’t know I was in the car and it was very quiet and private.

        2. CDN HR*

          yeah, even if it’s Bluetooth I think that’s totally fine! You can definitely tell when people are driving vs. sitting in the car but not moving. If you are using your Bluetooth you can even say “I’m just using the Bluetooth in my car, let me know if causes too much ambient noise.”

    7. This Daydreamer*

      Somehow I am reminded of an NPR interview that ended with a loud “KLUNK”.

      Yeah, I would ask them to reschedule for a time when they are able to devote their full attention to the interview. Multitasking while interviewing in general seems like a bad combination to me and disrespectful to the person giving the interview. Why would this be fine when texting or playing a game on your phone at an in-person interview be seen as a MASSIVE red flag? When you’re in an in-person interview, you aren’t going to potentially kill someone because you’re distracted.

    8. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      So, one question I’d ask: Are you absolutely certain they’re driving? Because I know that when I lived with roommates who were, shall we say, less than understanding about the need for a quiet environment during a phone interview, I would go out to my car to take the call. It had the added benefit of actually having AC during our summer heatwaves, meaning I was more comfortable than in our blisteringly hot apartment.

      I did a similar thing when taking a phone interview during my lunch break as well.

      Now, if you are certain they’re driving, I’d probably put them at the bottom of my candidate list, for all the reasons you and others have said.

    9. nonegiven*

      My son did a technical interview on the phone, it turned out the interviewer was driving the whole time.

  27. minhag*

    When should a graduating student start applying for jobs? I’m (hopefully) graduating from MBA program in May 2018. Outside of consulting tracks that have their own timeline, when should I apply for regular jobs? Normally, I would apply 2 or 3 months before I would want to start a job. But I don’t want to wait until March to start applying and spend fall and spring all anxious. If I saw a good job posting pop up in November, would it be weird to apply and mention in my cover letter that I’m graduating in May?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      It probably depends on what you’re trying to get into.

      For example, many of my engineering friends had jobs set up close to a year before graduating, but in my (communications/marketing) field… we pretty much all had to wait until March! The one exception in my group was a (communications) friend who was hired on full-time at the place she interned, and she knew that about 6 months before graduation (and that’s what she wanted, so it worked out!).

    2. Fabulous*

      When I was in my Master’s Program I think I started applying the fall before graduation, so I basically had two semesters to get everything in order.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Normal jobs (ie, not like consulting where they are planning for a class of graduates) want someone who can start ASAP, so even if my process ends up taking 6 months, when I post the job in November, I’m really looking for someone to start in January.

    4. Huddled over tea*

      Depends on industry completely, of course.

      Our ATS (clunky and horrible as it is) asks people their availability/notice period, and a lot of graduate students have been putting ‘available September 2017’ (I’m in the UK, that’s when their dissertations/theses/etc are due) and I’ve only just stopped screening them out.

      Generally, I’m not looking for candidates who will be unavailable for more than 6 weeks from when I post an advert. (Minimum recruitment time, assuming all goes very smoothly: advert open for two weeks, initial screenings one week, interviews two weeks, entry-level candidate with one-two weeks notice if they’re working part-time or need to relocate.)

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      In my MBA program, we had the first job fair in October. I missed that one, but a few of the students who went to it had offer letters in January for jobs starting in May. I went to the January one, got offer letters in March for jobs starting in May. That was the most common path for people in my class. We were in the middle of a small recession, though, so the earlier job fair might be more productive now.

      Certainly companies coming to your school will understand that you’re not available until May. Jobs you find through other sources would have shorter timelines.

  28. T3k*

    I don’t know if I shot myself in the foot with this or not.

    Last week I applied for what’s basically known as one of the entry jobs into an industry that’s very hard to get into, so it’s pretty well known that this and customer support are “foot in the door” jobs to get into it. So when I was asked, I did explain part of the reason I wanted this job was because I wanted to make a career within the industry and when asked to explain, I further said I wanted to go into something art related within the field (and would utilize more of my skills) and was asked a bit about my skills there, but nothing else and I didn’t bring it up again.

    Though one of the interviewers explained he’s big on promoting internally, now I’m afraid it makes it look like I want to move too quickly from the entry one to another, when I’m not: I know I have to put in my dues before getting there and I’m willing to stay within the job for at least a year to get there. Besides of course desperately needing a job, this is one of the few I REALLY want.

    1. extra anon today*

      I don’t think you need to worry about it. I was just reading an article yesterday about the new head of development at my husband’s hobby-focused company. He started as a customer service rep only 14 years ago, quickly moved into the art department, then to project management and he’s now head of all game development. I think it is perfectly normal.

      1. T3k*

        Thanks. Yeah, one interviewer explained how he started in customer support many years ago and is now one of the VPs, and the other interviewer held the same job I was applying for before (with no experience) and is now in charge of that group.

    2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Seconding not worrying about it. Personally, I have no issue with people who take jobs at my company because they want to work their way up. Some of our best employees are ones that have done that because they have a deeper knowledge of how the company works and what we do than someone coming in completely from the outside. And I always like to hear that a candidate has aspirations for advancement.

    3. Eve*

      I agree with everyone else that this sounds fine. If you are already looking towards advancement they know you are motivated to do well at this entry level position. They seemed to want to tell their own or coworker’s success stories with this as well so that is a good sign.

  29. Candi*

    My son has a friend who told this story about something the friend’s uncle Fergus did when job hunting.

    Note: The kids are in high school, Fergus is the older brother to the friend’s parent, and we are in the US.

    This is all the information I have. Llama wool pillows are over there by the teapots.

    About 2 1/2 years ago, Fergus was job hunting. His materials can’t have been too bad, because he was getting interviews.

    Apparently, at some point between initial interview and possible offer, Fergus would pull out a chunk of cash and offer it to the manager, offering to pay the manager to hire him. When the manager, being a sensible human being, would refuse, Fergus would say, “Good. I wouldn’t want to work anywhere where people aren’t ethical.”

    For some reason, Fergus had a terrible time finding a job until his savings fell too low to pull this stunt.

    Besides the Giant NEON Sign flashing “GIMMICK, I’m pretty sure there are fields/industries/jurisdictions where this would mean Big Trouble of some variety. Besides being completely bananas.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh my god.

      I. I really don’t have words beside that. My jaw is on my desk and I can’t quite decide if I’m laughing or just dumbstruck.

    7. The OG Anonsie*

      You know, I just rewatched the episode of Vikings where the earl offers his advisor the chance to sleep with his wife by swearing he gives his permission and that the wife wants to sleep with him, then murders the guy for being untrustworthy when he accepts. Sprung to mind here.

  30. Master Bean Counter*

    WWYD:
    You like the company and think it’s an interesting place and you can see yourself growing with it.
    But your manager has a style of doing things that are so vastly different from you that it actually causes stress and drives you bonkers some days.
    A new CEO gives you hope that things can change, but you don’t know if you’re up for the fight.
    Stay and see if you can ride out the bumpy or look for something else?

    1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

      I can totally relate to that situation as I’m dealing with something similar. Obviously your happiness at work and ability to get your job done are super important so if it gets bad enough that that starts to slip, that I would say start looking. For myself, I’m holding out because I think there is lots of great stuff happening but have also given myself a timeline as I can’t live on the idea of change happening forever.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        My ability to get my job has slipped, but I also have no qualms about letting people know exactly where it has slipped. I leave out the why, because I’m not looking to kill my job just yet.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      Both?
      Start looking and see what’s out there and that might change your perspective. You could find a place that is even better than your current company. Or once you open yourself up to new options it could be really freeing knowing you *could* leave and the bumpiness looks different from that angle.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Start searching and know you have the luxury of being a little choosey. When you see what is out there you will get a better idea of what your tolerance load is for Current Job.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      If you can, try to stay a while and see if the new CEO actually does change things. If he/she doesn’t have action items and solid goals for change, start looking for a new job.

  31. Kowalski! Options!*

    Interesting occurrence this past Tuesday morning here at the Ministry of Teapots…
    About a year ago, when my team leader and I were completing our respective M.A.s, I sent her a .JPG of a joke relating to how stressful the creative process can be. Team Leader printed it out and stuck it in her cubicle, by the entrance of her cubicle. You would have had to have been inside the cubicle to see it. It wasn’t sexist or rude or anything, but it did have “f*** off” as part of the joke.
    Earlier this week, team leader’s grand-grand-grand-boss (GGGB), a senior person here at the Ministry, came up to our section because of confusion with the cancellation of a training session (one that our section didn’t organize – we just lent the training room to another group.) In a huff, GGGB stormed into my team leader’s cubicle, demanding to know what was going on. Team Leader calmly explained that we’d only lent the training room – we had no hand in cancelling the training at the last minute. GGGB saw the printout of the .JPG, pointed to it, and snapped to Team Leader, “You take that down RIGHT NOW.” (My team leader isn’t a junior person – she’s a professional with 20 years in the Ministry.)
    We’re all a little surprised by what happened, especially since our shop is, generally, pretty laid back. GGGB has only been with the Ministry for six months and doesn’t really know much about our team or what we do, or what we’re like when we’re working. Now, being a senior person, GGGB can definitely determine what she does or doesn’t want to see in peoples’ cubicles…but she’s the only person in well over a year to comment on the joke…. Thoughts?

    1. Grayson*

      I think a combination of GGGB’ annoyance at the cancellation combined with what would normally be mild displeasure at an expletive. Then *boom* perfect storm of snapping.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        Oh, no doubt. And FWIW, the joke is back up (this time, it’s better hidden behind Team Leader’s monitor).

    2. Sadsack*

      Was the actual F word written on the sign? If so, that would definitely not be acceptable where I work. At all. GGGB shouldn’t have addressed it that way. Still, I wouldn’t have put that sign up anywhere in my cubicle.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        It was, but it wasn’t completely clear (kind of pixilated because it had been blown up from a small .JPG, and in small type, so it’s not something that would have registered unless you were really looking at it and reading it).
        As an addendum: one of the other grand-bosses on our floor (not in our immediate bunch) just approached us in the elevator and asked what had happened. We told him. His reaction: Well, she’d better not hang out in my office, or else she’s going to get an earful of f-bombs whether she likes it or not. So the word is out.

        1. Kowalski! Options!*

          And in fairness to Team Leader, she’s no anarcho-cowboy; rather, she’s a meticulous I-dotter and T-crosser who works hard to have good relationships with everyone she encounters in the Ministry.

    3. Kathenus*

      It probably wasn’t noticed before, and the combination of actually seeing it and the frustration of the situation resulted in the directive to remove it. We had a somewhat inappropriate poster hung in the staff workspace (not easily seen by others) in one of my work areas – relating to a specific past manager. It was tolerated for awhile, but before the head honcho was going to visit the area, the team was told to remove it in case they were back in that area for any reason, such as using a phone. It never went back up, probably a good thing.

    4. Simone R*

      I’ve worked in places that are laid back but get straightened up when higher ups (like board members or other fancy people) come by. It wouldn’t seem unusual to me to have to take down some stuff ahead of time and then put it back up when they leave. Maybe not the most reasonable thing but the way it was.

    5. Not a Morning Person*

      Agree with the folks who are saying that the emotion behind the order to remove the poster was most likely due to the concern about the cancellation of the training…however, and it’s a BIG HOWEVER, a poster with the word spelled out or even just alluded to with “F…” would not fly at any place I’ve ever worked and might even be cause for a PIP or termination. It’s a BIG NO in my experience.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto from me. It just is not done in any place I worked.

        I think putting it back up was very unwise of her given her setting.

      2. arjumand*

        Absolutely. It wouldn’t even occur to me to put something like that up in the workplace – sure, I can turn the air blue around me anytime I like (with my colleagues, not with the boss, either), but something in print? On display?
        That would not fly, at all.

  32. Saviour Self*

    I am trying to decide if I’m being too critical of a candidate and would like feedback from the AAM community.

    We are hiring for an entry-level engineering position, an office desk job. When I posted the job, I was expecting candidates to be a bit rough around the edges and to not know professional norms as they’re likely fresh out of school. One candidate in particular seems to be more than just not knowing norms however.

    He sent in his resume, absent the requested cover letter but that’s normal for engineers, and I was interested in doing a phone screen with him. I sent an email on a Monday asking for his availability for a “brief phone interview” sometime that week or the following. He responded around 4pm saying he would be available that evening at 8:30pm. I asked for other options between 8am and 6pm and included that it would likely be about a 15-20 minute conversation. As an aside, our normal business hours are 9am-5pm but I try to make exceptions for candidates outside those hours as they may be working. He responded saying he is only available after 8:30pm or on weekends. At this point, I thanked him again for his interest, let him know I had other phone screens scheduled and would reach out to him about scheduling following those if I was still interested and that it would likely be several weeks. He then sent me an email a week later saying he’s ready for his interview the previous evening and why hadn’t I called. An interview I’d neither scheduled nor confirmed.

    Am I wrong in thinking that, if you’re looking for a job you should plan on making yourself sometime near normal business hours? Would you expect someone to interview you for a normal business hours job after 8:30pm or on weekends? If he’d referenced crunching on a big project or being on a tight deadline and being available a week later, I would have understood and would have offered to schedule a little further out.

    Based on his responses and the fact that he was middle of the pack for this recruitment drive, I don’t plan on pursuing him but I do want to make sure I’m not dismissing him out of hand.

    1. Blue Anne*

      No, you’re not being too critical. That’s pretty bad.

      Since it’s bothering you enough to wonder about it, it might be worth giving him that feedback.

    2. LawBee*

      After 8:30pm or the weekends is really restrictive. I find it hard to believe he doesn’t get a 20 minute lunch or dinner break, or can’t fake a doctor’s appointment if needed. You’re not being unreasonable.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, the time issue aside, he should have re-read your messages before contacting that you again and realized that you didn’t actually have an interview scheduled at all. Sounds like a flake. You might tell him that he is mistaken and good luck in his search.

    4. CodeWench*

      It makes me think that he may have a retail or food service job (or multiple jobs) and not be able to leave to take a call. We were always supposed to have a 30 minute lunch, but when that actually did happen, the timing of it was completely unpredictable. I didn’t get vacation time so I had to know 2 weeks in advance that I needed a day off, otherwise it was unplanned and I could be fired if it happened more than 3 times. Of course, I would lose pay for the day I took off on the rare case that I was able to schedule time off in advance and I was only able to do that 10 times a year or I’d be fired. Since there was no guarantee that one of the first three employers I interviewed with would hire me, I ended up having to quit my job, move back in with my family and take temp jobs so I was able to interview at all. People from poorer backgrounds are not able to do that at all. If it’s a situation where the guy doesn’t have a car and is relying on a bus or something, he could easily be in a situation where he’s either at a job or on his commute at every point during regular business hours and he may not be able to risk his job on the off chance that someone might hire him for a better job.

      3. This Daydreamer*

        You have a point, but this guy A) didn’t follow the directions in the job listing and B) assumed that the interview would take place when he was available without scheduling the interview first and then complained when he didn’t get the call.

        I’ve worked retail. I get the fact that it can make scheduling interviews a pain in the everything, but this guy apparently wanted the interviewer to read his mind. It would have been great, and fair, to be willing to schedule around when he had to work, but he was the one who was being more unreasonable.

        Yeah, skip him.

    5. Academia Escapee*

      If he’s this demanding about a phone screen, I can’t imagine what it would be like to actually work with him. “Sorry, I can’t go to that mandatory meeting at 10:00am on Monday – I only do meetings at 3:55pm on Wednesdays.”

    6. rubyrose*

      I think your expectations as to how the process should work are accurate, and that you dodged a bullet. Getting an email saying he was ready for his interview the previous evening and why didn’t you call? He has some lessons to learn.

      If he really could not do something within the time frames you specified, it was on him to explain why not and sincerely ask for an exception. Which you could grant or not.

    7. voluptuousfire*

      No, you’re correct. I handle recruitment admin in the tech space myself and will get requests from candidates who ask for interviews outside business hours– late night or weekend. I reconfirm we can only interviews during business hours and we can schedule it a bit further out if needed and that resets the expectations. I think sometimes candidates assume we’re recruiters who work extra hours outside regular business hours, but my company is very adamant about work life balance, so we don’t promote outlier interview times.

      You weren’t dismissing out of hand. If the candidate is average at best and expects an outlier interview with no explanation as to why, I don’t think it’s incorrect on sending him on his way.

    8. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      No, you are not wrong. Since he’s the “begger” in this case, he should be accommodating to your schedule. And if he’s this way about an interview, how do you think he’d be on the job when asked to do something? I wouldn’t move further with him. Bullet dodged.

    9. The OG Anonsie*

      I’m very generous in what I would ignore for candidates, and I would definitely have written this dude off.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      The whole thing about an interview the previous evening tells you everything you need to know here.

  33. LavaLamp*

    I have an is it legal question that I’ve googled yet not found an answer to.

    My boss told us yesterday that its now illegal in Colorado to discuss wages at work. I’m thinking she’s wrong about this as I haven’t found anything online.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      That’s the opposite of the trend in salary-related legislation, so I suspect she’s wrong too.

      1. LavaLamp*

        I thought she was incorrectly referring to the law that’s being passed about not being able to use salary history in negotiations.

    2. paul*

      Your boss’s statement is idiotic. Illegal? Is she on the good drugs? Does she think the cops are going to arrest someone for saying they make XYZ/hour?

    3. Saviour Self*

      The NLRB would have a lot to say about that. You cannot restrict workers from discussing wages, you can discipline if they aren’t getting their work done because they’re discussing wages but then you would be disciplining for performance issues, not because they were discussing wages.

      1. Argh!*

        I have also been illegal told not to discuss wages or performance evaluations at work. Do they have some secret network where they give each other tips on how to skirt the law?

    5. Almost A Retiree*

      Your boss is absolutely wrong. The National Labor Relations Act guarantees employees the right to discuss salary and compensation. And in 2008, Colorado enacted a law that prohibits employers from retaliating against an employee who does talk about pay issues and specified that compensation can not be made part of a nondisclosure agreement.

    6. Dankar*

      Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s actually illegal for employers to PREVENT discussion of wages at work.

    8. neverjaunty*

      Your boss is either a liar or passing on information from someone who is, and either way I’d be pretty concerned.

      1. LavaLamp*

        I knew I was right. She said this in a meeting with my entire team mind you, so I didn’t want to open a can of worms arguing it out. Should I bring it up with her that what shes telling us is false?

        1. JustaCPA*

          find this stuff online: The National Labor Relations Act guarantees employees the right to discuss salary and compensation. And in 2008, Colorado enacted a law that prohibits employers from retaliating against an employee who does talk about pay issues and specified that compensation can not be made part of a nondisclosure agreement.

          and send her a link with the relevant parts summarized in the email.

          phrase it something like…

          the other day when salary discussions came up in our meeting, I was confused by what you said since it didnt gibe with my recollections. I did a lilttle research and this is what I found. Can you let me know which law/act you’re referencing that states otherwise?

    9. TreeGeek*

      Worked at 5 different places in the 20+ years I lived in Colorado and heard a variation of “discussing salary is illegal/against the rules” at 3 of them. (Interestingly, those 3 were the white-collar jobs – in the 2 blue-collar jobs it never came up.)

      Wonder if it’s something in the water in Colorado?

  34. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    I’m on the Board of Directors for a VERY small non-profit. All board members are volunteers, except for the Executive Director. We have been really struggling in the last few years to provide services to our members (pretty basic things: updating the website regularly, having an active social media presence, communicating frequently with members via email, etc.), and I don’t know how to address it. The problem is that most of us are not getting paid to do this, so it’s difficult to devote time and energy to these tasks while also balancing other responsibilities (families, school, full time jobs, full time jobs AND part time jobs, etc.). How can I bring this up to the Board? I don’t want to sound accusatory, but we have all dropped the ball on this, and our members know it. Something needs to change or the few remaining members we have will leave. Any advice?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’m in a very similar situation. The ED and the Board President have addressed it by performing extended guilt monologues at board meetings, which obviously has not been helpful.

      As for how you bring it up to the board, my guess is that everyone knows that things aren’t getting done, so I would think of it less as naming the issue and more as re-centering on the commitments you want to make as board members. Maybe you could start with a conversation about why each member joined the board and believes in the organization, or spend some time talking about what you hope for for the organization. Are there events or programs your organization puts on? Attending those together as a board can be a great way to help jog the memory of what inspired you in the first place to commit to the board.

      Taking the time to re-center in your commitments can then set the stage for talking about how to move forward. I think you can just name that there are limited resources, including time and capacity. Go through the exercise of listing all the things you wish the organization was doing, and then prioritize them. Placing them on a grid with axes of potential impact and resources needed can be helpful for that.

      What is your board structure like? Are there clear roles and responsibilities or are you all kind of responsible for everything? If the latter, it could help to create some structure and accountability.

      This is already answering waaay more than you asked, but it sounds like you’re running a membership organization. You might also look into network models of community building. One of the key principles is the diffusion of responsibility for things like the tasks you mentioned (and overall governance, for that matter) to the network of members. It’s a big shift from the member services model (my organization is in the process of making it, so I can tell you firsthand!) but it’s much nimbler and resource-efficient, and can be really empowering for members. Check out the consulting group Network Impact and their book Connecting to Change the World for a taste of the approach.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Thank you for your advice and the book rec! I will definitely look into it.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I totally feel this. Also on board for small nonprofit that’s awesome but super niche area and half the time the explanation for why we matter makes people’s eyes glaze over.

      This is all seems to be kind of “marketing stuff”, so I’m going to treat it like that :)

      So my first thought is – if the Board is supposed to be managing marketing and isn’t, it’s time to get someone else. And it doesn’t have to sound accusatory to bring it up.. just hey, I think we need to change how we’re doing something so it can give it more attention. Maybe we’re all spread a little too thin for us to maintain it?

      Then…

      Can you get an unpaid intern from a local college? I was required to have internship hours during school and 3 out of my 4 were unpaid (and only like 10 hours a week). We currently have an intern that covers Facebook and email campaigns (among other things).

      Otherwise, can you put out a call for a volunteer to do this work? We have a volunteer that runs our Instagram. If a current volunteer isn’t able to help, maybe try a site like VolunteerMatch.com? Specifically if the work can be done remotely… I used volunteer match during my first job out of school, which wasn’t in the area I wanted to work, to get more experience in marketing and graphic design.

      Also, planning posts and stuff out a head of time can be helpful – here’s a calendar of what we should do shout outs for, here’s a bunch of random stuff we can post whenever, etc. Then it’s all done and someone just has to copy and paste it into whatever medium.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Thanks! I think making the “marketing tasks” one person’s responsibility (instead of everyone and no one on the board) would help. I’ll float VolunteerMatch to the rest of the board and see what they say!

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Good luck!

          Remote can be a tough sell for volunteer positions, but you’d be surprised. I spent a couple years as a newsletter editor for a nonprofit in CA and I’m in WI. The other editor at the time was in South Korea!

          Our contact in CA usually just sent us a bunch of pictures, their event flyers/any newspaper articles, and contact information (we did volunteer interviews regularly). They were focused on certain issues related to animals, so we also did “animal news”, which I just found on my own and they approved.

    3. Anon attorney*

      Not to be confrontational, but if the board isn’t able to prioritize the organization (and I understand that, because I’m on a nonprofit board myself and I haven’t been pulling my weight lately) and you have a dwindling membership, is the option of winding up the organization on the table? You don’t have to go on forever if it isn’t working. Just a devils advocate point.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Actually, yes that is an option. There’s even a rival organization that does what we do (but better) that we’ve been reaching out to for help. I’m all for calling it quits and suggesting to our members that they join this other org, but some of the older board members are very opposed to that idea. They’ve been involved in our non-profit for longer than I’ve been alive, and it’s hard for them to let go.

    4. CM*

      I’ve been in this situation. Is there a reason you feel like you can’t bring this up to the Board without sounding accusatory? In a functional organization, you should be able to openly talk about things like this. Are you concerned that you will be pointing the finger at the ED, who is the only paid employee? I might approach this by first having private conversations with both the ED and, individually, with a few other board members who would care about this issue, presenting it as, “I’m concerned about these problems, and would like to talk about this as a group but first I wanted to see if you share my concerns or have any ideas.” Then you could ask for this discussion to be the focus of an upcoming board meeting, and by then you may have collected some ideas from the people you talked to.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        You’re correct that I’m worried about placing blame on the ED. She is lovely, but also very busy with life-things, and she can’t seem to keep up with her own responsibilities to the org, much less keeping everyone else on task and holding people accountable. I’ll probably have to speak with her first.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Do you have actual new information to update your website, put on social media, or send in an email, or do you just think you SHOULD be doing those things in order to get attention, but you don’t really have any new content? If you approach the board with specific ideas of what needs to be done… “We should post on Facebook our upcoming event schedule every Monday before noon; can someone be in charge of that? And the website needs to have an updated photo of the previous event each month. Can someone be in charge of uploading the photo on the first of the month?” When you break it into small tasks that can be accomplished in a matter of minutes, you may get a better response than, “We need to update our website and post more frequently,” which sounds overwhelming and time consuming and no one person wants to do it. I recommend that you start with Content First and then plan out the method and frequency.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      The way I would address it is point out what you all have in common.

      “We all have families, jobs, and schooling going on. We are all in the same boat, we just don’t have the time needed to answer emails keep up social media and update the website. But, yet, these things need to be done. I would like us to talk about what options we have here to do things differently.”

      1) You can pay someone (probably your best choice).
      2) You can find an intern, then another one, then another one….
      3) You can divide up the work, once person take the website, one person take social media and one person take email.

      Throw these basic ideas on the table and let the group bounce them around. It’s amazing what groups can come up with.

      One board I belong to I am paid a small amount of money. The secretary/treasurer makes a lot more money than I do. She works non-stop at various board matters.
      Another board I belong to brought in a person who is very interested in doing this type of work. She has no problem doing the board meetings and relaying that info in different ways. So this would be another option to consider, bring in a new board member whose task it is to cover this stuff, but don’t count on them to help you with anything else because BUSY!

    7. This Daydreamer*

      Internship? It would obviously be a temporary fix but it’s better than media silence, and I’m sure you could find a social media savvy college student willing to help out in exchange for adding to their resume.

  35. DecorativeCacti*

    I was reading this old post ( https://www.askamanager.org/2013/05/who-was-your-weirdest-coworker.html ) brought to me by “Surprise Me” and came across someone who got in trouble for farting at work. This reminded me of the story of someone at my job who got in trouble for farting in their manager’s office. I think they were getting talked to about something else, and the accusation was that it was retaliatory. They got written up, the union got involved, it was A Thing. So think twice before having that burrito for lunch!

    1. LibbyG*

      Well, you see, if you let one go in the office, then you don’t have plausible deniability, you need to save it for when you’re walking by the target(s) (with sufficient other foot traffic). This tactic, I believe, is called “crop-dusting”. Supposedly flight attendants are masters at this.

  36. Blue Anne*

    Yesterday I closed on a duplex, a pure investment property, five minutes walk from me. That brings me up to my goal of purchasing my first 5 rental units in 2017. I’m actually also looking at another duplex this afternoon.

    I’m pretty excited, and also posting about it on this thread because I’m trying to start thinking of it as a real side job. I woke up the other morning with the thought “You’re not running it like a business! Shape up!” in my head. Time to get my books in order, and look into property management software…

    The thing that bugs me is… this is something I’ve been wanting to do for years, I’ve been educating myself and saving up and getting ready, and it’s really taking off. My plans are actually working and I’m really building up a side business. And my friends are already making comments about “Anne the Slumlord” and “Are you addicted to buying properties? When are you stopping? Do we need an intervention?” No… I’m not addicted… I’m building a business and it’s a lot of work. Argh.

    Any other real estate investors around? How do you handle this stuff?

    1. a wording question*

      Anne
      I’m not in real estate, but am inthe business world. I think you are doing fine. This isn’t something you woke up and said I’m going to spend thousands of dollars on, you have been planning for years. I personally think it might be some slight jealously from friends – your working on properties 2 (maybe 3) while they are still , I’m assuming working on renting or purchasing house 1. Your dreams are becoming a reality. You should be proud ofy ourself not anxious over some ribbing from friends.

    2. FormerOP*

      I haven’t invested in an income property yet (but I am thinking about it for the future) but I have noticed that in life when I’ve made different decisions to my friends, I’ve gotten similar responses. I believe that people don’t like being confronted with something different to their own choices, whether it is moving to an ashram for a year or diversifying income. So good for you for investing and creating another income stream for yourself. Ignore the unnecessary comments.

    4. CM*

      That’s great, congratulations!

      I think like anything else that attracts unwanted commentary, you can handle it by being matter-of-fact and positive about it, and pretending to be oblivious to the judgment/nastiness of the comments. Like when they call you a “slumlord,” “Why do you think I would run a slum? That reminds me, I repaired a sink today! I’m learning so much through this business.” Or “When are you stopping?” “I’m not stopping. I’ve been planning to build a real estate business for years and it’s going well.” (Better yet, just “I’m not stopping.”) I don’t get why they would make comments like that, but maybe it’s like Former OP said — you’re making choices that your friends wouldn’t expect, so they’re attacking you for it. Think of it this way, CEOs of companies don’t defend why they have a company, they would just be baffled if somebody suggested that there was something weird about them running a business.

    5. Manders*

      Congrats, that’s awesome! I’m hoping to do something similar someday–I just bought my first condo, and since the building doesn’t have a rental cap, I can keep it and rent it out when I’m ready for a biggest space.

      Something I realized while I was going through the process of looking for places is that buying property, even if it’s just a home for you to live in, can bring up a lot of weird feelings in some people. It’s even weirder when you start talking about a home as an investment instead of a place to live. Housing costs are a major source of stress in many people’s lives and sometimes that stress comes out in the form of snarky comments.

    6. small biz owner*

      I am interested in doing this– but I’m confused how you can actually make money! Is it all bc of if depreciating the property as well as leveraging with a mortgage?

      Is there a way to make good $ buying properties in cash outright? (Sorry to threadjack, just so curious.)

      1. Manders*

        From the slumlord jokes, I think she’s buying properties and renting them out. In some areas, you can charge more in rent per month than what you’re paying into a mortgage, so most of what your tenants pay goes to the mortgage and then you’ve also got a bit left over for fixing and improving the building, making a small monthly income, etc. Do that for long enough, and even if you don’t get a ton of cash month to month, you can end up with some valuable properties.

        There are also areas where home prices are going up so ridiculously fast that you can just buy a property, sit on it for a few years, and then sell it to a new investor or a developer once it’s become even more valuable. In my area that’s happening all over the place–sometimes the land, not the building, is what’s in demand, especially if zoning laws change to allow developers to demolish a small old building and build a larger one. I don’t think many individuals are doing that unless they’re already wealthy.

        1. Blue Anne*

          Yep! I’m a landlady.

          Whether it makes sense to buy and rent out properties depends very much on the prices in your area. I’m in a solid blue-collar suburb of Cleveland. For me, charging fair market rents, I make about $150-$200 cashflow a month per unit after all expenses.

          I don’t buy properties hoping that their value will go up. All of my calculations assume that the value of my houses will stay the same. But still, I’m only buying good deals and someone else is paying off the loan for me. So for the duplex I just bought, in 30 years I’ll own a $90k building outright having put in $20k of my own money. And all that time it will have been throwing off cash.

          1. Manders*

            Wow! I wish I lived somewhere with Cleveland prices. It costs waaaaaay more money to invest in property in Seattle, but rents are incredibly high too, so it’s still possible to make a profit.

            Are you on call when things break, or do you work with a management company?

            1. Blue Anne*

              Right now, I’m on call when things break, but I always figure a 10% buffer into my numbers so that I can hire a property manager later if I want to. So far (I mean, only like 3 months) it hasn’t been bad at all, just helping someone who locked himself out and re-lighting the pilot light on a stove. Everything I’m buying is in pretty good shape and I have money set aside for immediate replacement of a couple things that are really old and liable to break soon.

      2. nonegiven*

        You have to make a judgement about how much are the carrying costs and will the going rent for the type of property in the location give you positive cash flow, even if you aren’t 100% fully leased all the time. Also, as you pay down the mortgage, you are building equity.

        My husband and I each had friends, when we were kids, whose parent did this for a living. One of my husband’s friends has done it for years alongside his contracting business, until recently, (his health has been in decline.)

    7. Not really a lurker anymore*

      I hang out on a chat board at Proboards called Your Money and More. We have people that do real estate, in fact, there’s a long running thread about being a landlord.

      We’re the old MSN Money forum that reformed 5-6 years ago when they shut down their forums.

    8. Lady Alys*

      No property management experience, just saying “congratulations!” And you might look at the MrMoneyMustache forums – there’s a permanent thread on property ownership and management.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      You can turn the tables on the person asking. Instead of struggling for a reasonable answer to a stupid question why not just ask them, “So when are you going to get your game going? Tick-tock. One day we will wake up and we will be retiring. Time flies. Make a plan now.”

    10. Zathras*

      Congrats on making your plans into reality. I would like to do something similar eventually but it’s going to take some serious saving – real estate here in Boston is insane.

      Your friends’ slumlord/intervention comments are probably meant as a gentle joke, possibly rooted in mild envy at the fact that you are in a position to own property. I have ribbed a friend of mine I rented a room from similarly (but he thought it was funny and started signing his emails as “the slumlord”). But you are 100% justified to ask them directly to just cut it the hell out – “Hey, I know you’re joking, but I’ve actually put a ton of work into making this happen and being a good landlord, and the snark really rubs me the wrong way. Can you not make that joke anymore?” Real friends understand and honor this kind of request.

      In terms of getting your stuff together, you didn’t ask but I have 2 suggestions based on personal experience as a renter:

      1) Put some thought into how you will manage simultaneous competing needs at your different properties. There are issues that can easily happen at multiple properties all at the same time – think burst pipes, gutter damage, roof damage due to snow, heat doesn’t work the first time you turn it on, etc.

      2) If you ever get a property manager, give your tenants a separate non-emergency contact method that goes only to you, such as an email account that you check once a month. Our property manager is useless, he often ignores our emails/phone calls and has let issues (even health-and-safety type ones) linger for weeks/months after scheduling a repair and then no-showing. But I have no way to tell the landlord that he’s wasting his money on this guy.

      Best of luck!

  37. Mazzy*

    Has anyone else ever heard of Kaplan University? I don’t want to start a whole thread on for-profit schools, I just need help with the decision of whether to interview a candidate or not.

    A candidate went to this school, or logged in online, to be exact. Does anyone know anything about it, how rigorous it is, if it’s as good as a regular school?

    This is a candidate who unknowingly wrote the best cover letter and customized resume for a niche position, I feel like it would be a shame to overlook someone who speaks the language of this opening so well just because of their school. Does anyone have an opinion?

    1. Random CPA*

      I can’t speak to the school, but I think too much weight is placed on college in general. I know so many idiots with college degrees. I have a master’s myself, but got mine grudgingly just so I could sit for the CPA is exam (lots of idiots with CPAs, too, btw). Anyway, I think you should interview the candidate and give them a shot based on the effort you were able to see from the cover letter and tailored resume.

      1. KatiePie*

        You are a stronger person than I. I can’t bring myself to get my Masters just so I can become a CPA. I’m happy working in industry in jobs that don’t require a CPA. (I do have my CMA.)

        1. Random CPA*

          The company I was working for at the time paid for my master’s, so that incentivized me. But it was harder than getting my bachelor’s, mostly because I knew that most of what I was learning was not helping me do better at my job, or even helping me prepare for the CPA exam. I went the audit path in public accounting, but I thought the most practical class I took in the master’s program was the tax class. We had to prepare mock tax returns, which really helped my understanding of the subject. And like I said, it was very practical.

    2. This is me*

      If you removed the degree, would the candidate still be qualified? When I worked in academia, and I was the hiring director’s right hand, we couldn’t count the for profit degree as if it was what met the minimum standard. So for example, all instructors had to have at least a master’s degree… if their only master’s degree was from the non profit it didn’t count. But if they had a master’s from an accredited school plus the non-profit it was okay and they made it through the first screening. (sadly I would usually purge 80% of applicants on the non accredited school degree right off the bat.)

      If everything else being equal and its not academia then I would proceed.

      1. Camellia*

        “If you removed the degree, would the candidate still be qualified?”

        This is an excellent approach!

    3. Bertha*

      Some “regular schools” aren’t so great! For what it’s worth, Purdue University recently purchased Kaplan.. surely that says something about them.

      Does this person have work experience since the program (or during it)? Is the degree completely necessary for the work? If you are in a field that offers accreditation to universities for the field, is the specific program accredited (for example, Kaplan’s nursing program is accredited by the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education, which seems to be the standard).

      For what it’s worth, I went online in a not-that-rigorous masters program, although the brick-and-mortar portion has been around since the 1800s. Some of my classes were very easy, but others were not, and when they WERE easy, I would try to learn and apply everything possible and basically suck as much learning as I could out of the degree. If someone was looking at my resume and cover letter and thought I had great experience but looked down on my universities (which admittedly are both mediocre state schools), I would be bummed.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’ve studied with them and found then very good, but I was working towards an officially accredited accounting qualification so the syllabus wasn’t set by them and the qualification stood on its own merit.

      I would be tempted to interview the candidate if they presented themselves well so far and see what more you can find out about their education.

      I’m also wondering if they’re a fresh grad? If not then I’d argue their education is less important than any work experience they might have.

    5. CM*

      While I’m skeptical for-profit schools, I don’t think the school that someone attends should be a dealbreaker. Besides, plenty of people attend excellent schools but skate by. If this candidate has the best cover and resume, you should interview them.

    6. Fabulous*

      I was life/health insurance producer licensed through Kaplan, so I think they’re a pretty reputable place. At least in the insurance/investment world!

    7. Princess Carolyn*

      If her resume and cover letter make her sound competent, bring her in. If it’s a position where knowing the subject matter of your degree is essential (say, a history teacher or chemical engineer), I’d be a little wary. If it’s a position where the most important thing is skills, I wouldn’t worry about the degree at all. Ask good questions and you’ll find out if she’s got the knowledge and experience you’re looking for.

  38. Random CPA*

    I’ve always felt bad when I’ve referred someone to a job at my company, they send me their resume and cover letter, and they don’t even get interviewed. Now I realize that I’m not guaranteeing them an interview, but I am guaranteeing that their resume will at least be evaluated by the hiring manager I pass it along to. Which is kind of nice to know that it’s not going into some resume black hole.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      And nothing wrong with stating that clearly. “I am not saying you will get an interview because I do not have that kind of clout and our company does not work that way. All I am saying is I will ask the HM to read it and consider calling you.”

      Never be afraid to speak very clearly like this. People are really great. Most of the time the person will probably accept your message and say “thank you so much”. I marvel at the numbers of times I have told people the limits of what I will or can do and they have reacted with nothing but gratitude. It’s impressive to see.

  39. Anonfornow*

    So I have a couple of job-hunt-related issues..

    1. I applied for a job earlier this summer and interviewed and was told even at the time that they were considering hiring two people. I was not chosen at that time, and I see that they ended up going with someone very entry level (compared to my 8 years of experience–although her four months of experience was a little bit more specific to that field). The recruiter told me that they had gone with another candidate at the time, but said that they’d keep me on file because they might be adding the second position. I saw earlier this week that the second position was posted, and I wrote the recruiter and reiterated my interest in the position. No response, which wasn’t entirely surprising. But should I “apply” to the newly listed position? Half of me thinks that if they liked me, they would have already contacted me. I found an AAM column where she says “Doesn’t hurt to email!” so I emailed, but now I’m not sure what to do.

    2. I have a phone interview next week, and when I wrote the hiring manager to confirm the time, she said she thought for sure she’d sent me a response and wondered if it had been blocked because of Gmail. That made me think of a phone interview I had a month or so ago where, at the end of the call, the hiring manager told me that “by the end of the day” she’d send me a contact at the company I could speak with who would be lateral to me and could answer questions about the position, but she never did. I guess I just assumed that she wasn’t actually interested, but now I’m wondering if something similar happened where she THOUGHT she replied but it had gotten “lost” or something like that.

    TL;DR I feel like most of the advice on AAM says “If they like you, they’ll contact you” and truth be told, when I actually *do* follow up it’s of course rejection. But now I’m wondering if it’s likely my emails have gotten lost in the ether. Is that something that ever happens?! Or am I getting the rare employers who actually WANT you to follow up? I just don’t know what to do.

    2. Ama*

      If you use Gmail, are you checking those weird “Forums” and “Promotions” tabs they have? Because periodically they seem to adjust their algorithms and suddenly messages that are directly to me start getting sorted into those tabs. (This may especially be true if you are applying to employers that send out advertising emails.)

      1. Anonfornow*

        I assumed that the one interviewer meant that maybe her *outgoing* email had been blocked by her company’s system. I check my spam mail on a daily basis, nothing in there. And I no longer have the tabs in Gmail; I don’t remember what I did to get rid of them, but everything goes to my inbox. I used to have a program that would take the “junk” emails and roll them all together, but I noticed I missed a couple of important emails so I got rid of that as well.

        In the cases I’m talking about, the interviewer contacted me first. So when I replied, there was already a conversation going — and I don’t think I’ve ever had an email attached to an existing conversation go to junk mail. Honestly, I suspect the one person who said her response may have been “blocked” just forgot to reply, or didn’t hit send (I’ve totally done that!) because it seems stranger that either side of the system would allow her to send a message, receive one back from me, and then block a return message.

  40. Scientista*

    I’ve had a job drop in my lap, which sounds great in theory, but hasn’t been great in practice. Basically, I wasn’t seriously looking (at that point) for a job, but a colleague at a company that I have always wanted to work for asked if I wanted a job and passed my affirmative answer to his boss who was also a colleague of mine (through professional committees). They created a position for me, put the job ad out, interviewed me, got my application paperwork filled out, and now…I wait.

    My question is: how long would you wait for an opportunity like this to come to fruition? It’s now been 9-1/2 months since the initial offer to create a job for me. It’s been 8 months since I applied for the job (that is so specifically written that I would surprised if any one else applied). It’s been 2 months since I interviewed. When I followed up with the hiring manager (once, 6 weeks after the interview and 2 weeks after they said I’d hear something), he basically begged and admonished me to “please be patient!” I feel like I have been patient and that this is now a red flag for this company.

    Just some additional information, this would be a huge transition for me with a 50%+ increase in salary, a 2000 mile relocation, and a job tailored to my skills. They’re also planning to offer my partner a job in a different department because the location is remote. My current employment is incredibly dysfunctional and becoming unbearable. I am worried about burning a bridge with this company though if I find another job now after they’ve worked for almost 10 months to bring me in…

    2. CatCat*

      You’ve got nothing to lose by looking for another job. If you get an offer, but you are still interested in the original company, contact them and let them know. That may entice them to speed things up, but maybe not.

      Alison wrote an article about this once. Link in reply to this message.

    3. CM*

      First of all, I would bet that they are counting from the interview, rather than your application. So for them it’s been 2 months, which isn’t outrageous. I would not call that a red flag, unless you have very low tolerance for bureaucracy.

      Still, if you want to job search, I would get in touch with your contact at the company first. You could tell them that, while you are still hoping to be hired for the position, you have been ready for some time to move on from your current job, and you plan to start applying elsewhere. You can say that you will let them know before you accept a job somewhere else, and ask them to update you when they have a better sense of their timeline.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Along the same line of thought — I imagine since they are creating a new position that this needs to go through a budgeting approval process for the next fiscal year. So, they created the job description 8 months ago for you to apply but the current fiscal year may not have a budget for you (and your partner, since they promised 2 positions). Do you know their fiscal year (is it the same as a calendar year?) I’d wait until the new fiscal year begins for something created specifically for you. But if you can’t, then let them know and move on at your convenience.

    4. Jules the First*

      Almost every job I’ve had has been custom-designed for me from scratch. (Yes, I am a purple unicorn and proud of it!) The first one took five months to put together (counting from the “lets do this” conversation to the actual offer paperwork), the second one took 9 months, the third (current) one took 8 months…and these are all organisations that hire purple unicorns all the time and so are familiar with everything they need to do to create a brand new unique position. Trust me when I say you don’t want to rush this process, especially if you are moving 2,000 miles and placing your financial future and your husband’s with them. If you rush them, you run the risk of making the move and having the job fall apart after a few months because not everyone at your new job was on board with the idea. Also bear in mind that while your hiring manager has been working on this for 9 months, it will have been on the table with his bosses for considerably less time.

      If I were you, I’d set up a call with the hiring manager and ask him to be upfront with you about his expected timeline. Explain that your current job is something you want to leave before X date, and talk about how you could make that work to leave for them.

  41. AlwaysSunny*

    I have been at my company for about 8 months and consider quitting in about a month around the upcoming holidays. This has been a difficult job with zero training and the manager blaming the employees for any mistake in a very rude and unprofessional manner. I would like to quit a couple days after labor day. So Monday the office will be closed and I have requested PTO for Tuesday and Wednesday and then considered calling my manager and telling him I quit Thursday. My question is can I do that and still get paid for the holiday and the PTO days if I don’t physically show up to quit the next day?

      2. AlwaysSunny*

        Yes I don’t plan to give a two week notice and plan to take off two weeks to travel before starting a new job.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Whether you can get paid for the PTO might depend on how their payroll is done – like does the manager input the approved PTO before hand or after? (At my coffee shop job, for instance, payroll is approved after the week is worked; whereas at my day job, I request to use my PTO in advance, and it is approved and input ahead of time.)

      Either way, though, Like Not a Real Giraffe asked, so you are planning on quitting without notice? Basically calling in and not quitting and not showing up again?

      Not trying to pile on, and while some jobs (like food service, retail) are notorious for people doing that, I would never put this job on my resume. At 8 months, if you can leave it off, I guess it’s your call — but why not try to stick it out for two weeks, or even 1 week might be helpful.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I think it also depends on the company’s PTO payout policy. In my company, I would be entitled to that PTO regardless because it’s time I’ve already accrued and our policy is to payout any unused PTO. So, in AlwaysSunny’s case, Tuesday and Wednesday would be paid regardless, though the holiday is what’s up in the air to me.

        Regardless, I do not recommend calling in to quit day-of. I get that the company has treated you well, and perhaps this is a bridge you do not care about burning, but you never know when you’ll encounter people from this company again and I personally would not want to leave on this kind of note.

      2. AlwaysSunny*

        It is a corporate job, so the PTO is input ahead of time and approved as soon it is put into the system. I don’t want to give a two weeks notice, as I will have to move to another state for a new job, so I want to minimize the time lost without pay and still get a couple days to rest between jobs.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Another question: is PTO use-it-or-lose-it, or do they pay out? If it’s the latter, and your PTO is front-loaded, then I would recommend giving two weeks’ notice. You’ll get the money and the break that way.

        2. Jack*

          So why don’t you give your two weeks notice two weeks before the last day you want to work? What you’re trying to do is pretty crappy, IMO.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I think you probably need to show up and ‘clock in’ on Thursday, and maybe put in an hour of work before talking with your boss.

    4. nonegiven*

      One place I worked you had to be there the day after the holiday to get paid for the holiday.

  42. associate atty (idk why I'm going anon but I am)*

    Hello, best comment group on the internet!

    So last Friday I talked to my boss about revisiting my salary. He and I work in different offices, and I do a lot that he isn’t aware of. He was really receptive, took great notes, didn’t push back or say “Well, you realize….” – he seemed to be, if not immediately on board, definitely open to discussing it with the other partners. He said he’d get back to me this week.

    It’s Friday! I haven’t heard anything. I want to follow up with him – would sending an email along the lines of “Hey boss, I just wanted to follow up with you about our meeting last week. I know you needed to talk to the other partners about our discussion about my salary, and was wondering if you had an update” be appropriate?

    Note: a) I am super proud of myself for taking this step, regardless of the outcome. I’ve historically been terrible at negotiating or advocating for myself, so this was a huge step for me.
    b) I told boss that if the answer is not yet, I want to set out a plan with him when we meet next month that will get me where I want to be, pay-wise. He agreed to that as well.

    So, if I get it, YAY. If I don’t, that’s fine because he knows what I want, he knows now what all I do, and he knows I want to do whatever it takes to get there.

    Thoughts?

    1. Las Llaman*

      I’m sure your boss just forgot! I would wait until next week. Maybe his partners never got back to him. I don’t see any harm in just sending a “nudge” email to remind him next week.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Lawyers are often notoriously bad at managing. I’d give it another week and then definitely follow up per your plan.

    3. CM*

      I’m proud of you for taking this step too! I think sending an email today would be fine. Waiting until next week would work too.

  43. stitchinthyme*

    Hopefully fun topic: your most mortifying interview?

    Here’s mine: I forgot to charge my cell phone before leaving for the interview, so I left it at home. This was in the days before GPS’s were common, so although I thought I knew where the place was, I got lost and arrived 15 minutes late, ran in (so I was out of breath and a bit sweaty as it was summertime), and apologized profusely. The company owner was pretty gracious about it and the interview proceeded.

    We had started pretty late in the day and the company owner was a very talkative guy, so by around 7pm I was still there. Meanwhile, my husband had started to get worried — he had gotten home and seen my cell phone, so he knew he couldn’t call me, and he was worried I’d gotten into an accident or something. I’d left the info about where I was going up on my computer screen, so he called the company’s number, not realizing that it was a very small company and that, as no one else was around at that hour, the company owner himself would answer the call.

    So I’m sitting there in the owner’s office, the phone rings, he answers it, and he looks a little bemused as he says, “It’s for you.” I got pretty irritated with my husband (although I do understand why he was worried) and ended the call pretty quickly.

    I did still get the job offer, and my boss laughed about it to me afterward. But oh, I really wanted to sink through the floor, with that on top of having been late for the interview in the first place!

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      It’s probably not worth getting into the nitty-gritty (it happened 25 years ago), but I once got an invitation to interview at a temp agency that specialized in financial services. I’d done some temp work for some financial services companies in England as a working vacationer, so I figured, what the hell. The interviewer made me wait 55 minutes, invited me in, asked me an obscure question about bond trading, and when I couldn’t come up with an answer, said, “Why did you bother applying here if you are so clearly unqualified?” To this day, I wonder why they didn’t just send me a “thanks but no thanks” letter.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Reminds me a bit of the time I had a technical interview where I couldn’t answer probably 75% of the questions. For some reason they still made me a job offer, but I declined it because I didn’t feel like I had the knowledge they were looking for. Like, why would you want to hire someone who didn’t know most of the tech answers you wanted?

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I had an interview like that – I didn’t realize the position was effectively a management job, which I didn’t want and wasn’t qualified for. So most of the interview questions were geared toward my non-existent management experience, and other than offering some limited examples of project team leadership, I had nothing. Did not get that one.

          However, on another job interview I was asked a very obscure statistics question. Since I didn’t know, I said as much and asked the interviewer what the answer was. He had to bring out a book and look it up himself because he didn’t know either. He explained that he never expected anyone to be able to answer it, but he asked that kind of question to see what applicants would do – bluff, get upset or irritated, or be straightforward about not knowing with bonus points for curious about the answer. I did get that offer.

        2. Pen and Ink*

          I applied for a writing job, and the first question was asking me to explain a complicated trigonometry concept. I was totally befuddled, and the interviewer was irritated that I had no idea. I honestly wondered if I was being pranked.

        3. nonegiven*

          In a technical interview, they aren’t always expecting you to answer all the questions. Sometimes they just want to explore the depth of your knowledge of the whole subject. If they offered you the job it was probably because you had enough knowledge to do the duties of the job or at least be close enough to pick it up.

      2. Mononymous*

        That reminds me of when I was a brand new developer… I applied for a role with a really vague but seemingly relevant-to-my-limited-experience description and was called in for an interview with a recruiter/headhunter. They kept me waiting a while, alone in a giant meeting room. When the guy finally deigned to come in, he slumped into a chair across from me, literally put his feet up on the table, crossed his arms, and told me that the job required 5+ years of experience so why was I there? Um, one, your listing didn’t say how much experience wasn’t required and I wouldn’t have applied for it if it had, and two, did you even read my resume?! Why even call me in to interview if it was clear I didn’t have the minimum required experience? (My resume was accurate and did not exaggerate my job history, for the record.)

      3. The IT Manager*

        Reminds me of a time, I arrange a telephone call about a job advertisement. I had sent her my resume and she agreed to the call. I was unqualified, and I really got a why are you wasting my time vibe and she even said something like that. I called, though, because it was at least somewhat unclear; although, I was probably still believing the “you have an active security clearance, you will be snapped up” lie too.

    2. Seal*

      When I was fresh out of library school, I had a day-long interview for an academic librarian position. Having worked as a library paraprofessional in a large academic library for many years prior to getting my degree, I had a good idea of the expectations of entry level librarians as well as the type of support libraries provide to ensure their success. So when I met with the search committee and was asked if I had any questions, I wanted to ask if they had a mentoring program for new librarians. Except in the stress of the moment, I couldn’t come up with the word “mentor” and instead asked what type of support they offered for new librarians. The search committee pretty much let out a muted yet horrified gasp, because apparently I had worded my question in such a was that they thought I was asking whether they covered moving expenses and the like, which is something you absolutely do. not. mention. in that situation. One of the search committee members rather tersely told me I should take that up with HR, which left me fumbling to explain what I was actually trying to ask. The tone of the interview was noticeably cooler after that; needless to say, I didn’t get the job. On the bright side, I will never forget the word “mentor” in an interview situation again.

    3. The Green Lawintern*

      I interviewed for a position which was ostensibly helping professionals from X country settle in. I spoke X language well conversationally, and the very nice, very Midwestern HR lady I had been swapping emails with never indicated that it was a requirement, only a plus. I went to the office for the interview, and the first thing they asked me was “can you do the entire interview in X language since the VP, who will be sitting in, doesn’t really speak English?” Turns out the job was on-site translation at a factory.

      I panicked so hard I blanked on parts of the alphabet – needless to say, I did not get the job.

      1. Julianne*

        I have a (probably irrational) fear of this happening to me. There are two languages that are very useful in my workplace; definitely not required, but knowing one or both makes some day to day tasks easier. I know both well enough for the day to day stuff, but I try to fly under the radar because I worry that my boss (who is very nice, but has very limited cross-cultural/foreign language experience) will be like, “Oh cool, we need someone to translate this meeting, let’s get Julianne in here.”

        I say that my fear is probably irrational because I don’t list either on my resume.

    4. Bigglesworth*

      When I interviewed for my first office job out of college, I decided to wear a pair of gray, pinstriped slacks with a cuff on the bottom. They were a bit too long on me, but looked great when I wore heels. As I was walking up the stairs to the office where I’d be interviewing, one of my heels hooked onto the cuff I pretty much went down in front of the office window/glass wall. The woman at the front-desk who saw me go down ended up being the person I needed to check in with before the interview. I was so mortified!

      I ended up getting the job, but didn’t wear those pants again for a very long time!

    5. Dankar*

      I interviewed at a Very Prestigious Private University, while still working a part-time position with a public university that specialized in working with non-traditional, lower-income students. Throughout the course of the interview, I was continually shocked by the costs associated with the private university’s programs ($3,000 administrative fee?! Our public school’s was $150). I think I might have audibly gasped at one point.

      I also thought the interviewers were joking when they stated that part of the job was providing concierge-like service to students who came to their department. My chuckling wasn’t appreciated.

      Needless to say, I never even got a polite “thanks but no thanks” email after. I do, however, currently work at a private college, so I must have learned something from that cringeworthy experience.

      1. INeedANap*

        My past experience was moving from one temp position to another in a public, state university and I finally made the transition from that to a stable, full-time permanent position at a Prestigious Private University. One of the biggest cultural difference was the service factor! The private university really stresses the fact that we’re here to serve the students , and it’s expected that you’ll not just go the extra mile in helping them out and doing everything possible to make their experience here great, but that you do it with a smile. That’s not to slight the public university – they were great – but just to emphasize how Very Important that aspect of the job is at Private University.

        1. Dankar*

          I was horrifyingly unqualified for that job at that point, so it’s good that they turned me down! Now that I’m with a small, private university, I’m really happy with the level of service we’re expected to provide our students with. We have a tiny cohort to support, so I can give them very individualized attention without feeling stretched too thin. (It would have been way too difficult of a transition to Very Prestigious Private University for me.)

          I’m also lucky to have landed at a school that heavily subsidizes the same low-income, non-traditional populations I had been working with, which was part of what I loved about my public university!

    6. Purple snowdrop*

      I went for a job in the social work department of my local council. The first question was “what is social work”. I know what social work us but my mind went utterly blank and I had to say I didn’t know.

      They were very nice about it. But I was mortified for the rest of the interview.

      I didn’t get the job.

    7. CM*

      I had a bizarre interview with somebody who I had been friendly with at school. She graduated and returned to do on-campus interviews for the tech company where she worked. I thought the interview would be relaxed, since we knew each other and had hung out before (but I was still prepared). She went into attack mode, asking me questions and then berating me even when I gave her correct answers. She would ask me something extremely technical wear a full explanation would take about an hour, so I would offer an abbreviated explanation and then she would yell at me for not including all the details and say I obviously didn’t understand. At one point she flat-out said, “No. You’re wrong,” and I said, “You may be thinking of Scenario B, but in Scenario A, this is correct,” and she started saying that I didn’t know what I was talking about and I was clueless. I actually pulled a book out of my backpack and said, “I can show you in this book where it says that,” and she got even more angry and told me to put it away. When I left, I was completely confused and wished that I had walked out in the middle of the interview. I still wondered what I had done to deserve that, but then when I talked to a couple of other women who had interviewed with her, they had a similar experience and one of them said that she had cried during the interview. So weird. I never talked to her again after that.

    8. voluptuousfire*

      I applied for a job and mixed up the days of the interview. (!) The only reason I found out was because I followed up with the interviewer by sending them an updated copy of my resume the day before I thought I was scheduled. Turns out I was set for that afternoon and missed it completely! I apologized, admitted I was mortified by my mistake and asked if they were willing, would they reschedule? I was told they would have to look at their calendar and I never heard anything from them again. At the time, I had been just laid off from a previous role, had gone on vacation to Prague. I was still processing the layoff/jetlagged and juggling 3 other interviews.

      A similar job popped up two years later, same company, and I applied. I was offered the role and have been here for two years this September. :) I think I wasn’t meant for the other role. Turns out the person in the role was only there until the end of the year. This role is essentially identical, only difference is a different title and working with a centralized team at our HQ vs. concentrated on the office I’m in now.

    9. Applesauced*

      Just out of school, I interviewed for a position at an architecture firm that did a lot of facade restoration.
      They asked if I was afraid of heights. Not understanding the connection between architect-facade-scaffolding-heights…. I said “Only if the fall would kill me!”
      It did not go over wall.

    10. Fabulous*

      I have two, and they happened around the same time. I swear I’m a good interviewer, I just had a momentary lapse during my last job search!!

      #1 – I accidentally said the word “bitch” in an interview:

      It was in the context of telling them about a time when I worked with a difficult person. A prior boss was an extreme micromanager and working for him afforded me the ability to work with anyone. There was one woman in the office I was working in at the time who was known as the “Office Bitch” but I got along with her great because she operated similarly to my former boss and I knew what she expected – except I said it exactly like that. I realized what I was saying as it came out of my mouth. Holy crap the interviewers just went dead silent when I said The Word. They addressed it and said it was OK that I had said it, but man that was awkward! I didn’t get that job.

      #2 – Shortly after that interview, maybe the same week, I had another one that was two-fold bad:

      First, this interview was at a majority-black college and I am very white. Another situational question that I had never been asked, about a time I had a disagreement with a coworker. Well, I never have, but I was immediately reminded of the time a girl once nearly attacked me out of nowhere at work. She blocked me in my cubicle and looked like she might physically attack me, and I couldn’t move until the supervisor came to get her. Telling that story, I realized I couldn’t fully explain the situation… because it had to do with race… That job was kind of, for lack of a better word, ghetto. It attracted people with low education and low ambition. Didn’t help that the majority of them were black or Latino and was located in a poorer area. I ended up making more per hour than everyone in the dept within a year ($13/hr, if that tells you anything) and I’m sure all of that factored into that altercation. But of course as I started talking about this experience, I realized I couldn’t give the backstory without sounding horribly racist, especially since the office I was interviewing in was of the same racial mix. Awkward back-peddling commenced.

      Secondly, the interview was for a travel specialist position, which I was just coming from doing. I had printed out all the reports I’ve created for the company I was working for as well as all the training materials I created from scratch for them. I was in a hurry that day and forgot to delete all the names of people in the reports, so when I presented the materials, everyone’s company spending information was all there in blazing, branded glory. As I left, they asked if I wanted to take the materials with me but I said no they could keep it. After leaving, I realized what I had done. Didn’t get that job either…

    11. Coalea*

      I got horribly, horribly lost on the way to an interview. I tried calling my contacts at the company to explain the situation – and ask for directions! – but I couldn’t get through to a human. I finally realized that I was headed in the wrong direction, so I hopped into the left lane waited for an opportunity to make a U-turn, not realizing that in New Jersey (where the company was located), they make “jug handles” from the right lane rather than U-turns from the left. I can’t tell you how long I drove along waiting for an opportunity that never came. I ended up being almost 3 hours late to the interview. I was sure that I came off as the dumbest person to walk the face of the earth, but somehow I got the job!

    12. Coalea*

      I got horribly, horribly lost on the way to an interview. I tried calling my contacts at the company to explain the situation – and ask for directions! – but I couldn’t get through to a human. I finally realized that I was headed in the wrong direction, so I hopped into the left lane waited for an opportunity to make a U-turn, not realizing that in New Jersey (where the company was located), they make “jug handles” from the right lane rather than U-turns from the left. I can’t tell you how long I drove along waiting for an opportunity that never came. I ended up being over 2 hours late to the interview. I was sure that I came off as the dumbest person to walk the face of the earth, but somehow I got the job!

    13. Lora*

      It was actually a grad school interview for a PhD program.

      One of the professors (tenured full prof, had been there multiple decades) contacted me asking if I could come visit for two days: during one day they had a poster session for the department and a seminar, the next day he would like me to interview and meet other professors in the department. This is very normal, it was the #3 program in the country for that particular field, so of course I said I’d be delighted to. He said great, the department secretary will make the arrangements.

      Except, nobody contacted me. At all. This was the first in a series of interviews at various universities, so I sorta-kinda knew what to expect but not in full detail. The university was certainly within driving distance, and hotels there were cheap enough, so I told work I wouldn’t be in for a few days and road-tripped it. When I walked into the department main office, nobody was expecting me. At all. And the professor in question had taken off on vacation the week before and wasn’t expected back for three weeks. The secretary, very flustered, gave me a brochure about the seminar/poster thingy and said I was certainly welcome to come to the poster session and seminar and walk around and meet the other professors and students. Uh, OK. So I went to the seminar and listened to people give their talks and walked around and talked to the other professors at the poster session. They told me yeah, that professor is notoriously flaky – he does this to us, too! Calls meetings for his PhD students and then doesn’t show. Oh, wonderful.

      He sent me an apologetic email and an acceptance letter, but I didn’t go because…yeah. Not cool.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This happened when I was 19. I’d handle it with more maturity now.

        I turned up for an interview only to be told it had been rescheduled as someone was ill, or something like that. I was surprised nobody had called me, but okay.

        So I turned up for the rescheduled interview and the same thing happened a second time! It had been moved and nobody had told me.

        It was third time lucky in terms of turning up for an interview. They offered me the job. I asked what the salary was (I hadn’t been told/it wasn’t in the ad) then explained that in the time they’d spent messing me around I’d already got another job that paid more, so no thanks.

        I had decided to waste their time like they’d wasted mine. Like I said: 19! These days I’d handle it differently.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I interviewed for a city job once, some kind of admin thing, I remember. The day of the interview, my allergies were kicking up pretty badly. I got in there with the two interviewers, they asked me a question, and I immediately choked on post-nasal drip. Coughing, sputtering, red-faced, tears, the entire bit. I had to ask them for a drink of water. One of them took me into the small break area and poured me a paper cup of water, which I drank, and then we continued with the interview. The other one asked if I was okay, but she looked at me like I was a disgusting bug.

      Needless to say, I did not get the job. And I never EVER went into an interview again without a water bottle.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      OP, I hope this story makes you feel a bit better. My husband had scheduled an interview for after work around 6 pm and 50 miles from home. It got later and later. Cells weren’t popular back then. All I could do was wait. At quarter to nine the phone rang. My husband explained that the interviewer told him that he MUST call me to let me know he is okay and heading home.
      Good bosses understand.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Mine is not really mortifying but it’s more like “what are they thinking?” A position at a local company opened and I applied. The process dragged on and on with so much hemming and hawing that I knew I did not want to work there. A couple months into the process the person I would be replacing said, “I can’t do the travel. I have an old dog.”
      My heart sank down to my toes. At that point I had recently lost my husband and I, too, had an old dog… an old and grieving dog. (Yes, he visibly grieved for my husband. NOT FUN to watch this stuff.) With that comment from the employee I knew a) there was more travel than what they were telling me, they had lied and 2) I knew I had to stay closer to home for my old dog. I withdrew my application.
      I don’t usually have such a strong negative reaction to jobs. When I withdrew, I physically felt better. My constant stomach ache went away.
      I was embarrassed by that whole thing for a while as I felt I should have taken control over the situation sooner.

    17. Zathras*

      I once went to an interview that was supposed to be for office work for a youth nonprofit I had done a program with when I was in that age group. The office was located in the middle of nowhere, but about 25 minutes from Smallish Town X, where I happened to have lived/worked a few years before. At the time of the interview I lived 1.5 hours away in City Y. Pretty much the first thing the interviewer said to me was “Well, at least you only had to drive from Town X!” I said, “What? I came from City Y.” (I had a City Y address at the top of my resume and had lived/worked in City Z *on the opposite side of the country* in between.)

      She looked uncomfortable and started asking me some relatively general questions while giving off really awkward, dismissive body language. It became clear from her questions that the position was 90% coaching/mentoring program graduates. I would not have applied to such a position – the ad I responded to described basic office tasks like filing, organization, answering the phone, etc.

      She ended the interview after 15 minutes and said she’d call to follow up. (Spoiler: I never heard from them again.) I never figured out whether they had just picked me to fill a quota because they thought I was close by, or whether they had accidentally called me for a totally different position instead of another applicant who really did live in Town X.

      I was really inexperienced at interviewing, and I left it feeling like I had done something horribly wrong to cause this woman to hate me – it was only much later that I realized that my answers had been a little inexperienced but not that bad, and the awkwardness was not of my making.

    18. Hare*

      Forgot my umbrella. Turned up completely soaked, clutching the pasty I’d bought for breakfast and hadn’t yet managed to eat.

  44. AKG*

    My husband is graduating law school this Dec and starting to look for jobs. He has gotten advice from a professor that is very foreign to me. I’m not from this industry at all and just wanted to verify with others that this isn’t off-base for a conservative industry like law. His professor is advising mailing a letter of interest to various law firms in the area to see if they have any openings. Not including a cover letter, resume, etc. Is this still done? I understand contacting places that don’t necessarily have jobs listed publicly, but I’ve never heard of a letter of interest before and not including a resume seems like an odd move. Any thoughts or similar experiences? I’d love to know if anyone has tried this and had it work!

    1. Bigglesworth*

      I’m following this. I just started law school and I’ve already heard this from a professor (along with always write hand-written thank you notes instead of emails and walking in to drop off a resume is how it’s just done in law).

      1. LawBee*

        Walking in to drop off a resume = resume never makes it past the gatekeeper. No one does this in my experience. I’ve never heard of writing a letter before applying, but I guess it could work?

        I wouldn’t take any kind of career advice from law professors or law school in general. They just don’t know. My advice is to get a law student membership with your local ABA or Trial Lawyer’s Association (if you’re planning to do plaintiff’s law) and start networking. It sucks, it’s awkward, but maybe you can go in with a friend?

        1. Chaordic One*

          When I worked as an Administrative Assistant in HR, it wasn’t that it would never make it past the gatekeeper. We didn’t really have a gatekeeper. I kept everything that came in and no one with the ability to make a hiring decision ever asked for or ever looked at any unsolicited resume. Ever.

          The only people who ever got interviews were those who applied for specific open positions.

    2. LawBee*

      Congrats to your husband! Good luck on the bar in February – for both of you. Bar review sucks.

    3. Las Llaman*

      Your husband should definitely not do this. I’ve worked at law firms in the past and no matter the industry, no one in their HR/recruiting department is going to take a “letter of interest” seriously. Even when I received resumes via mail vs our online system, I would immediately put them in the trash unless their resume was outstanding. It shows that your out of touch and probably received bad advice from someone. If the firms have job openings they will be on the website.

      If anything, your husband can EMAIL law firms (not the attorneys, the office manager) and ask about openings.

      2. Naruto*

        I really don’t think it’s true that “if the firms have job openings they will be on the website.” In my experience that is true for some law firms, but not most.

        That said, your odds are certainly better pursuing posted positions because there you know there is in fact a hiring need.

      3. CM*

        I think emailing firms WITH your resume and a brief cover email explaining your experience and what you’re looking for can work for laterals. For law students, I wouldn’t advise that for mid-size to large firms, but for small firms that don’t recruit it could be OK.

    4. CatCat*

      I’ve heard a few older lawyers (like nearing retirement) tell me they did stuff like this, but I have never otherwise heard of anyone doing this modernly. Your husband is better off going to local bar events, imo. (Not to ask people for a job, but to meet people in the legal community who can give advice on starting out as a new lawyer.)

    5. neverjaunty*

      No. This is the law equivalent of grandpa telling you to show some gumption.

      The best way for your husband to find a law job is networking. Is he a member of professional organizations in his preferred area of practice, and is state and county bar groups? (Typically they offer free or nearly free membership to law students.) Does he have volunteer experience with legal aid clinics or volunteer days?

      1. AKG*

        That’s exactly what I was worried about. It all seems terribly old-fashioned. I’ll ask him about joining professional orgs and recommend he do so. He doesn’t have volunteer experience but did just complete an internship at a small firm this summer which unfortunately does not have space to hire anyone else anytime soon.

    6. Naruto*

      I did something like this in law school. I sent letters (or emails) to firms in my home state that weren’t applying, saying essentially “I don’t know if you’re hiring but if so I’d be interested in talking.” (I got some interviews, FWIW.) Those were essentially cover letters, AND I did include my resume. It’s really weird to me to do this without including a resume or cover letter!

    7. Lady Bug*

      No, this isn’t a normal thing in law. He’s better off network, going through OCI and applying for jobs that are advertised. I found many of the older generation of law professers to be stuck in the traditional ways of doing things. Law is very (obnoxiously) traditional in general, but big firms have stringent hiring practices and will advertise jobs on their websites. The only jobs this might work for are small firms that want to pay you $30k/year.

    8. Valkyrie*

      I am “the gate keeper” at a boutique law firm (read: pretty small) if a recent grad reaches out with a letter like this my boss (the principal/firm owner) will usually say we’re not hiring (we rarely are) but offer to do an informational interview. My boss is a super cool, under-40 attorney though.

      When we ARE hiring, we usually hire via networking with the occasional job board posting.

  45. blog advice*

    A bit of a long story…

    I am in the process of starting my own small business combining a much loved hobby and other areas in my life. I’m starting as a hobbiest locally to build up my reputation and get my product known. As my hobby business grows over time I want to move from enthusiastic hobbyier to a professional business. I am happy that 18 months in I am right on track to success! Whether hobbiest or professional I don’t to be viewed as untouchable or stern; rather have a reputation that is professional, approachable and warm.

    I was thinking of starting a blog to promote my business. I think a blog would be a great way to bring everything together. Are there any other bloggers out there that have done things this way?

    I would like this blog to have a personal aspect to it. Let’s say this is a lifestyle blog where 75% of blog posts would be related to the hobby. The other 25% would be lifestyle and social opinion posts on every day issues. 100% of these posts relates to my business plan overall. I would also like to have a comment section.

    My main hesitation, is there any “rule” when blogging to mention a news event, website, company or product? I’ve been searching the internet for answers with conflicting results. For example, will I get sued if I say today’s post is coming from my favorite diner where I am having a Diet Coke and cheeseburger. I have no business affiliation with CocaCola. Of course I plan on getting official approval from a company, product, etc and siting the original source. In other words these posts are not a paid advertisement or barter.

    On the blog, I would like to cover areas like:
    -when working on hobby I suggest using ABC product
    -what’s your opinion of this court case
    -do you think this social scenario in the news was ethically correct
    -I admire how Company DEF is working in the community
    -I prefer to donate profits to charity GHI
    -book KJL was a great hobby reference for me
    -I loved this TV show check it out

    The product / company references would not be the main focus; just used as support for my post. I’m not looking to do something malice, hence if there was any question regarding a post, I would have no problem taking it down, rephrasing or restating a post without the specific (ABC, DEF, GHI, KJL) mentioned. In other words I will do everything to be respectful and professional.

    Officially and legally right now I am just a passionate hobbiest. I belong to a lot of networking groups and would like to use the blog as a website to refer people to; an online presence.

    I realize a hobby blog is an expression of opinion, a diary of sorts. Eventually I need to contact a lawyer (now?) as my business crosses the bridge to a more legal status. I’m not expecting to leave the hobby world for another 3-5 years. I’ve helped people on blogs before, but my clients have taken care of the legal aspects. I’ve never started one from scratch.

    Any suggestions for resources that may give me a better idea as to what I can legally post for a personal blog? Any blog sources in general?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I don’t know about legal post for a blog but a blog I follow that talks a lot about content marketing (which is what a blog is about) is Spin Sucks by Gini Dietrich. She often has good tips and ideas and discusses how blogs can be used to increase traffic to a business.

      Dvid Mmeriman Scott’s book New Rules of PR talks a lot about blogs too.

    2. CM*

      You’re totally fine. Everything you mentioned is OK. Obviously, don’t pretend you are from the company or are speaking on behalf of the company, and don’t lie about the company (or book, etc.) But you can refer to, comment on, and criticize companies (books, etc.) all you want.

      Search for “copyright law for bloggers” and you’ll find lots of resources.

    4. small biz owner*

      Some of your topixs seem very political (social posts, charity, court cases). Depending on your product, that could turn me off if we had dramatically different views. You wouldn’t want to cut down your audience/potential customers unless it’s a deliberate choice to pursue a niche that lines up with your political views. Which is fine, but do it intentionally.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. I would skip the personal stuff entirely. Be aware of people’s time. Give them stuff they can quickly read and put to use.
        I see your goal is to soften how you come across. There are many ways you can do this just in the course of discussing the hobby. For example, most people feel some connection if a person talks about a mistake or misconception they had when the first started doing the hobby or job. People can relate.

        Very clear explanations is another way of saying “I am approachable, I am even friendly.” People who can write good explanations that most other people can follow signal that they are not rude or elitist people. For confirmation, look at Alison. People flock to AAM. Why. Clear, respectful explanations. Alison is a very smart and very knowledgeable person, she could act elitist but instead she chooses to help people. Keep an attitude of service in your writing.

  46. Mirth & Merry*

    Wrote the best cover letter I have ever written last night and the job portal only had a place to upload a resume, I was just going to add the cover letter to the resume but I couldn’t go back and upload a new document. Such a bummer!

    Also, any hiring managers out there want to comment on the combining the resume and cover letter into one document when only a resume is requested? Would that me annoying or have any effect on your thoughts towards an applicant?
    TIA!

    1. Saviour Self*

      It is what I do when I’m applying to jobs and they only allow 1 document to be uploaded.

      Similarly, if a candidate sends me one, I am never upset about it. I wish more would take the time and consideration to write one.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I do the same thing when application systems won’t let me upload two documents. Since I don’t have Adobe Acrobat, I simply write the cover letter and then paste my resume below it in Word. Then I use Cute PDF to make a pdf file of the whole thing and attach that.

    2. Liane*

      A big employer in my area has an ATS with a resume upload page that says to make your cover letter, if any, the first page of your resume. I started getting interview with them (company encourages people to reapply/apply to multiple similar positions) when I did so.
      So go for it.

    3. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      Whenever I’ve screened resumes for entry level positions for my supervisor, anyone with a cover letter gets extra attention. I’m not a hiring manager at all, but as someone who’s done the screening part? Yay cover letter!

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Ergh, I ran into this recently with two different online applications – only one document upload option labeled “Resume.” One specifically says don’t bother with a cover letter in their FAQ on applying, so okay. But the other doesn’t mention cover letters at all… I tailored my resume to each but did not attach a cover letter. I gather that it would have been better to do so in the second case, but might not be chance-killing that I didn’t?

  47. FormerOP*

    I am not actively job searching, but I threw my hat into the ring for a position I came across recently. Based on the circumstances (I think the details might derail the question so I won’t include them) I was pretty certain that the organization was a bit desperate to find qualified candidates. I did the phone screen with their internal recruiter, and she only asked one question, “what are your salary requirements?” I’ve never heard this question so early in the process, and my honest answer is that work environment, etc. is more important to my decision than salary (again I don’t want to derail the Q, but there are some industry-specific things that are genuinely more important to me). I ended up saying “market rate” for my salary requirements. I haven’t heard back from this organization. Any advice on handling that question in the future if my real answer genuinely is that the actual salary number is much less important to me that the full picture of the job?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Coming from a smaller nonprofit background, I would really want to hear a number, because it’s likely that we’re offering half of what you could get elsewhere. That said, as the interviewer, I would always share the range, because it is budgeted and we aren’t that flexible!

      But even if your range is large, I bet it does exist, so I’d be ready with a more specific answer.

    2. CM*

      I think you can say the thing about the full picture. It’s worked out for me in the past to give my absolute low number, like, “I’d like to consider the full picture of the job, but I won’t consider a base salary lower than $X.”

  48. VogonPoetry*

    There was a truly repugnant article on Business Insider this week titled “Elon Musk firing his assistant is a good career and salary lesson.” It’s been revised since it first dropped, so you can’t see the original text, but initially the gist was this:

    Musk had an assistant who had worked for him for over a decade. When she asked for a raise, he suggested she take two weeks off so he could see how valuable her work was to him. When she got back, he let her know that SpaceX had not crumbled in those two weeks and so her current position was no longer needed.

    Now, since then, some other details have been brought to light muddling the story (Musk claims he offered her a job in another area, gave her a year’s worth of salary as severance when she left, etc). However! That does not change the fact that the BI article, as originally written, was basically on the side of “You better know your worth in your company, because if you ask for a raise after 12 years of work, you might find out that you’re worthless and out of a job!” They painted Musk’s supposed actions as “a good lesson” in how management works. What’s the lesson here? Even if I’m a sociopath and deem this secretary as worthless, it still seems like bad management to let every one of your ‘valuable’ employees know the direction that loyalty flows in your organization.

    Anyways, a hearty WTF for Business Insider this week.

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      I saw that! “Know what you’re worth before asking for a raise” is good advice. But it’s not the moral of the story in question. Plus, I would bet good money that this assistance absence was sorely noticed after three months. I doubt Elon Musk just took on all that admin work without any problems.

      1. paul*

        Of course not. He foisted it off on half a dozen people that were already overloaded while insulating himself from the fallout.

        1. Lora*

          Exactly.

          “Won’t collapse” isn’t the same as “still producing the same quality long term”. I say that as both a “get me the heck out of here, Mr Headhunter!” and a “my fee to fix your screw-up will be $200/hour, minimum 4 hours/day” person.

          Technically I don’t need to eat fresh vegetables and fruit and yogurt and baked fish. I don’t need to exercise or shower or wear anything other than a blanket. I don’t need to leave the house, I can be a hermit. I can survive on ramen, Tastykakes, and a steady stream of TV. People do, all the time. But don’t tell me it’s just as good as thriving on a healthy diet, riding my bike, having showers and spending time with friends and loved ones.

          Elon Musk doesn’t need to drive a fancy car. He can drive around a 1992 Ford Fiesta. Those suckers get good mileage. He doesn’t need to date Amber Heard, he can hire a craigslist prostitute. He doesn’t have to live in a nice house, his work is in Palo Alto where it’s always nice weather, he could live in a tent on the beach or something. Oh, your quality of life wouldn’t be as good? But you wouldn’t actually be dead! So what’s the problem?

          *headdesk*

        2. Chaordic One*

          Even though no one noticed the assistant’s being gone, since then the email lists haven’t been updated, the filing hasn’t been done, no one has ordered any supplies for the kitchen, and there’s never any paper in any of the fax machines, copiers or printers and no one told the supply room to order more paper or to order more toner, so we don’t have any.

          Those are the kinds of things that no one notices and that then get dumped on those half dozen already other people.

      2. VogonPoetry*

        “Know what you’re worth” is definitely not bad advice. But even so, the way they suggest applying it doesn’t sit well with me. “Make yourself indispensable,” in this case, means “make sure your organization would collapse when you leave.” In other words, don’t strengthen your company’s resilience, cripple it. Give files unclear names and don’t leave a paper trail so they really feel the pain when you’re on vacation! Who could afford to lose an employee like that?

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      This is a cached version of the article:
      http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9bzSRo1RmTsJ:www.businessinsider.com/how-to-make-yourself-indispensable-at-work-2017-8&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0

      The whole premise is ridiculous, anyway. Many people get at least two weeks of vacation a year (if not more). Your worth to a company is not tied to whether the company or its projects collapse in the time you’re away. Now, if you’re gone for two years and the company’s fine without you, that’s a totally different story.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        My maternity leave of 11 months wasn’t covered, the work was spilt between the other staff. I have to say, it didn’t make me feel like my job was valuable :(

        1. VogonPoetry*

          We’re understaffed right now and we *can* function. That doesn’t mean that the absences aren’t felt or that you wouldn’t be of value, though.

    7. Over educated*

      Not only does it make him sound like a jerk, I think he and the writer are both ignoring the massive, massive difference between covering for someone for two weeks and not having them around to help EVER. I wonder how long he got on before hiring a new assistant, or if he just redistributed her work to other employees who then found it increasing their job duties in difficult ways.

      1. VogonPoetry*

        Musk’s clarifying tweets make it sound like your last bit is exactly what happened; he found that her role was more appropriate to distribute among “several specialists vs one generalist.”

    11. Mike C.*

      I am so sick and tired of hearing stories of normal people doing reasonable things, having those things blow up in their face and then being surrounded with scolds chanting “I hope you learned your lesson!”.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am hoping to read an article that says she got ten job offers in her first three days of unemployment.

    13. This Daydreamer*

      If the workplace is going to fall apart when someone takes a two week vacation, something is very, very wrong. What if she had a major health issue? Would he try to fire her for taking leave under the FMLA? What if she just up and quit? Well, I guess he’s going to have to deal with the fallout from that kind of scenario now. Her coworkers must be *so happy* about having to cover for her for the foreseeable future. He obviously doesn’t appreciate what they do for him or give a damn about them as people.

      He’s the one who has a lesson to learn, and I really hope it’s going to bite him in the ass one day soon. What a horrible way to manage people. I hope she finds a fantastic job that pays twice as much. She’s earned it.

  49. Laura*

    Contact question

    I’m seeking a transfer to another location of a teapot retailer that’s opening in my town. I’ll still have to go through applying, and the interview.

    My question is this.

    I know a manager has been hired (because the way postings are posted in heirarchical order). Would it be too much to reach out and introduce myself, say that I work at store x but am looking to transfer to store y and to expect my application materials when the posting for my category is on the site?

    (It would be super beneficial for me but I’m not going to go into specifics, I know that would be a major put off)

    1. Kathenus*

      I’ve done lots of hiring. Personally, I like it when people take the initiative to email and let me know they’ve applied for a position. It’s important that they mention that they are already/have already applied through the normal process, but are just reaching out to me to express their interest. For some people they may not like this, but I always have. Caveat, though, it’s only positive when it’s a one-time contact. My perspective changes if they continue to email me for updates, with questions, etc. before or as the process is playing out. YMMV though.

  50. Amber Rose*

    I’m trying to create a WHMIS course for staff instead of paying for the external one (which is pricey at $20 a head), but man is it hard to find a lot of definitive information. Moreover, I have to give people a test and I really don’t want yet another thing where I have to chase people down, herd them into a room and lecture them for an hour. Does anyone know of a free software or website where I can create a course/quiz and just email the link to people?

    As a side note, I’ve been trying to draw and revise a floor plan of the building, which has changed a lot from the old structural doodles I was given as a guideline, especially now that we’ve knocked down three walls and walled over several doors. Who knew that cartography class I took in university would be helpful.

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      I don’t know if it’s still free, but I used Eliademy when I was still in the language teaching sector. You could also do something on with Google tools – create a presentation in PowerPoint with an MP3 voiceover, save it as a video and upload it to YouTube, then have the quiz hosted on Google Forms (if your company is cool with people using Google, which some are and some aren’t…..)

  51. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

    Thank you to all the lovely folks who gave me advice on asking for a change in schedule to accommodate some medical treatments. I’ve copied all of the ideas down into a word documents so when I have to figure out a schedule, I can look back on them as people were so helpful to lay out ideas for me.

    A little update: I’ve been able to reach one other doctor in my region and am seeing what their treatment options are but it looks like getting my treatments on a weekday is going to need to happen. I was feeling uber anxious about it so I sat down with my deputy director and manager and told them about the situation. They were very kind and said when the time comes that I need to adjust my schedule, we’ll figure it out. I wanted to give them some time to think about it what would work best for my position but they seem very willing to work with me to figure out the best plan of action. I haven’t been happy with my doctor in a long time (the office is a nightmare and I feel like could be a good case study on dysfunction in a workplace!) so I’m trying to think of this as a push to make an important change that will be good for my health!

  52. headdesk*

    How much time in advance do your workplaces hire to cover long-term leaves? We’re in the US, a co-worker has a 12 week FMLA leave coming up in 2 months or less. No existing employees can cover the work since it would literally require us to be in two places at once during parts of the workweek. We’re hiring to cover co-worker’s leave and to cover planned growth after the leave is over.

    Despite our management knowing about this for months now, they’ve had a total of one phone interview looking for someone. 2 months out and they haven’t even started in-person interviews yet!

    1. Bigglesworth*

      When I worked in higher education, hiring could (and usually did) take months. I was on the low-end of the totem pole and gave six weeks of official notice (my boss had known for months that I was leaving for grad school before I gave notice). In those six weeks, it took them two just to put up my job description, three more to schedule one interview, and then another four days to get the person they interviewed in for her first day. This was for a glorified admin assistant position. For my co-workers, the time varied between 6 weeks and five months. That being said, higher ed is weird and is known to take forever to do anything.

    2. Friday*

      We had someone start this week to take over a high-level position’s mat leave coming up in about a month. So they’ll work together during this time before she leaves. The higher up they are, the harder it is to find the right person to step into the role for a short term.

      Of course, with maternity leave it’s a risky wait because theoretically, there’s about a five week full-term period around the actual due date when the baby comes, and some come earlier than that. And with other medical FML, situations change all the time where the person needs to go out much sooner than planned. But there’s also the business expense to consider of hiring on that high-level temp, and a risk tolerance is placed on setting their start date knowing the actual FML might happen sooner. Or be delayed later, in the case of an overdue baby.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      Hah. Last time a colleague of mine went on maternity leave, they got around to posting the opening for a temp to cover for her about a week before her leave started. It was exactly as much of a disaster as you’d expect– the temp left after two weeks because she started after the other woman was on leave already, so there was no one to train her and she was up a creek. It went downhill from there.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Close colleague is going on maternity leave end of September (in the UK so this will be for about a year). We are advertising now and interviewing in early September.

  53. Career ideas for Prospect Research/MLIS?*

    I love my current job as a prospect researcher, but I need to pay off six-figures of student loans and I can’t do that with my current non-profit salary. Any ideas for a second career? I am currently learning SQL and then will be moving on to Python, and I have my MLIS (though I do not want to be a Librarian). I’m an extrovert, enjoy relationship building, but I also enjoy the technical/analytical side of my work.

    1. Alex*

      Have you looked for jobs at universities? I have seen several jobs in the development office of my university posted within the past year. If you already have experience in prospect research you might have a good chance to get a senior-level job. I don’t know firsthand how easy it is to move up, but department heads or upper managers can make six figures.

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I wonder if there is a role in business development in law firms that could fit. Any lawyers want to weigh in here?

      I worked on some projects identifying tools to improve prospect targeting for law firms and at the time I believe some of them were using librarians on staff to help out even though that wasn’t really their role.

    3. BRR*

      If you can focus on the data analytics side of things that’s probably the best way to move into other data type positions that would pay more.

    4. Zathras*

      Once upon a time I did temp work for an information services company (one of those websites you subscribe to to get searchable access to scholarly journals). There were many people working there with an MLIS whose work related to managing how the articles and so forth were organized. I suspect someone with an MLIS who also had some database/coding skills would be exciting to them.

      Alex above mentioned universities – if you can find something at a university that is a skills match to what you are doing now, university staff often get to take a certain number of classes per year for free, so you could take some classes to beef up your tech skills.

  54. Jessen*

    How do you tell what jobs are worth applying to? I’m in a position where I’m looking to move up a bit because I think I can get more pay and/or better benefits. My problem is that no one posts any information about that in the job ads, and they tend to use very stock descriptions of requirements (which means it’s common to have a $11/hr and a $22/hr job have almost the exact same description). I suspect if I just started applying, at least 75% of the advertised jobs would be unsuitable.

    I’m in the kind of low-end pool of I can use a computer but don’t have a lot of specific skills. I’m a call center quality control worker at the moment, but at this point I’d take anything that would pay the bills without being so tight.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Glassdoor might shed light on some of this.

      Also look at employers’ actual websites. Many will have a recruitment section with this sort of info.

  55. Isben Takes Tea*

    I’m loving the Taylor Swift trial testimony that’s coming out as great modeling for reporting sexual harassment. It’s ridiculous that the grilling she’s getting from lawyers is all too familiar from peers and bosses workplaces and schools, but it’s providing some awesome scripts, including a version of the AaM favorite: “*I* didn’t get him fired, he got himself fired.”

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m loving the fact that she’s flipping the tables on the guy and putting him on the defense. There’s a lot of young eyes that are watching this and they are getting a good lesson in speaking up.

      1. Chaordic One*

        And by her asking for a $1 judgement in her favor she’s making it clear that it isn’t about the money.

    2. CM*

      Yesss. She is amazing.
      I’m on a lawyer-mom FB group and we are all in awe of her deposition skills. It is NOT EASY to perform like she is doing in such a high-stress setting and it takes a ton of preparation.

  56. a wording question*

    Hi All
    I have an eBay shop. When contacting potential sourcing/ inventory leads, is it unprofessional to say… I have a “hobby” eBay business that in the future I plan on making a part time professional business?

    I don’t have a timeline just yet but do anticipate things taking a while. I don’t want to lie leading potential vendors to think one thing when in reality I am still getting my feet wet.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just simply say you are starting a new business? I don’t see a need to say the word “hobby”. Happily, if we go toward what we think, then it will only help you to think of it as your “new business”.

  57. Mrs. T. Potts*

    OK, this is weird. But do any of you ever wish you would get sick, but not very sick, or need surgery, but not anything terribly dangerous and/or painful, because then you could get, like, a month off from work and you could just rest up and recuperate?

    I used to have a therapist who told me this wish meant I needed a day off!

    I don’t really like my job, but it’s not a very stressful one or anything. Just wondering if anyone else has this “fantasy.”

    1. CR*

      Oh my god, yes. All the time. I don’t want to be sick exactly, I just want to linger in bed like a frail lady in Victorian times.

      Careful what you wish for, though. Once in university, the night before 2 exams, I wished I didn’t have to go to school the next day. I then proceeded to slip and fall and break my knee. I got my time off but I was in pain, haha.

    2. LibbyG*

      Yeah! I used to have that thought all the time, especially when I was new to my current job. I’d fantasize about a broken leg or the easiest hysterectomy ever (but still requiring four weeks of leave). Yeah, that’s my sign that I need to do more self-care.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      So…
      A few years ago I had a bad accident. I was hospitalized for weeks. At one point a nurse came in and to try to cheer me up said “oh, don’t worry sweetie! This just happened because Jesus must have thought you needed a break. You must have a lot going on in your life.”

      It was the most f**ed up thing about recovering from that accident.

      This has nothing to do with your point, it just made me think of it. Can you just take a month off? I’m letting one of my employees take a few months off because he’s feeling burnt out.

      1. Mrs. T. Potts*

        Wow, that’s kinda weird.
        Unfortunately, I can’t take a month off because 1) I don’t have enough PTO; and 2) I work for a college and the next semester is starting in two weeks.

    5. Pam Beasley*

      All the time, haha. I don’t hate my job, but it doesn’t inspire me or anything. I definitely think it indicates a need for a vacation day, but I don’t get very many, so I hate to waste them!

    6. paul*

      I go on vacation next week. I plan to drink too much, kayak till my arms fall off, and hopefully find some lifer species (I’ve almost never been as far east as we’re going). This reminds me I need a waterproof container for my DSLR (note to self).

      I’m counting down the minutes.

      Even in jobs when you’re happy, an occasional break is *really* a godsend. At jobs where you’re not particularly happy? Yeah, days off are really essential.

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I have legit fantasized about a hospital stay. Because nobody would expect you to get anything done; it would be literally the first time that I had no expectations or obligations.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I used to think about being in the hospital, until I actually was and nearly died of boredom. And I was only trapped for two days! Thank the universe I remembered to take my tablet with me.

    8. Teapot Librarian*

      I donated a kidney to a friend and got 2 weeks off. It’s “major” surgery but it’s generally laparoscopic and my recovery was super easy. And if you donate to a stranger, you’ll be hailed as a hero :-)

      1. Mrs. T. Potts*

        Gosh, that is very kind of you.
        I’m a diabetic–I don’t think anyone will want one of my kidneys. :(

    9. Lily Rowan*

      I have definitely had those thoughts! And think a one-week staycation is a decent remedy, assuming you have enough leave time. Give yourself permission to lie in bed all day for a couple of days, and if you aren’t really depressed, that will actually be enough.

    10. not my usual alias*

      Oh, yes. Just last week I saw my doctor about some pain in my knee and I indulged in this little fantasy where she said “all you need is a couple of weeks of rest on the couch, keeping ice on it, and then you’ll be as good as new.” This did not happen.

      1. Mrs. T. Potts*

        Here’s the funny thing: I had a two week vacation in England in June. I was ill with a bad cold the whole time and stressed out. I felt “cheated,” as I’d looked forward to it for a year.
        The most recent day off (other than a weekend) I’ve had was when I fell in my kitchen and hurt my back on a counter. I’ve been on Vicodin and Tylenol ever since. No doctor’s note, though.
        I wish I had some vacay time before the next semester starts at work.
        I have this fantasy all the time–it’s not just since I hurt my back.

    11. Jessen*

      Definitely! Especially since if you’re just “on vacation”, then everyone else knows that you’re on vacation and expects things of you.

    12. Emi.*

      I thought about this all the time in school! I thought about throwing myself down the steps of the architecture building (why that one? I have no idea) or stepping in front of the golf carts that the student mail carriers drove, or crashing my bicycle. In retrospect, I had a fairly serious anxiety disorder.

      Please take some time off work to take care of yourself!

    13. sometimeswhy*

      The last time I felt like that, the place I was working was really bad. Like abusive and toxic (like OSHA toxic not like EEOC toxic) and shady. I had one four-day vacation in five years. It was just… awful. I scheduled two surgeries (both technically elective but both medically necessary in a sooner-the-better way) about six months apart during my fifth year. Shortly after I returned from the second one, I gave notice. SURGERY was more pleasant that work. That was the first and only time I quit a job without having one lined up. I took six months off (and felt extremely fortunate to be able to do so) before I even started looking again.

      1. sometimeswhy*

        I’ll add that at my current job, the thought creeps in every now and then, like, “maybe I need a good case of bronchitis so I can catch up on [trashy mystery series I don’t actually care about but would be great to zone out on].” That’s usually my signal that I need to book my next time off soon and somewhere I can believably say I lack phone and internet service. My subconscious took it a whole step further and “helpfully” lost my phone the day before I left the country earlier this year!

    14. Squeeble*

      Oh, yeah. When I was miserable at my last job, I used to wish that I could get, like, semi-badly hit by a car. NOT bad enough to cause permanent damage, but enough that I could be in the hospital for a while and be completely checked out.

      Granted I have no idea what it’s like to be in that kind of accident and don’t really want that to happen. I was just exhausted and resentful.

    15. Lemon Zinger*

      Totally normal. I love my job but get burned out during the busy season because I work so much overtime.

      I was thrilled when my dentist told me to get my wisdom teeth removed last year. Sure, I only missed three days of work, but they were days well-spent on the couch with Netflix!

    16. Nonprofit manager*

      Yes, I used to wish I could be in a car crash or something so my job would just leave me alone for a while. Thankfully, I’ve been away from that job for a very, very long time.

      The movie “Cast Away” was released on DVD around that time and I used to watch that movie over and over, wishing I was alone on an island with no one to bother me.

      That workplace was really dysfunctional.

    17. Julianne*

      No, but one of my coworkers got 6 weeks of jury duty once, and I admit that I was a little jealous.

    19. As if*

      One time, my friend said, “I wish I’d get that bug going around, just so I could legit sleep for a week.” I laughed and said, “Yes to the sleep, no to the bug, please.” The very next day I got the bug. I jokingly blamed her for a year.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      I lived like years feeling that way. I had say that upfront so you can consider or ignore the next thing here.
      Please pay attention to that feeling. Untreated it can get worse, a lot worse.
      Start going to bed a bit earlier. If all you can do is a half hour earlier then do that.
      Take a look at your diet, make sure you are hydrating properly.
      Look for ways to simplify your work life and your personal life.
      If something gives you stress ask yourself how you can lower the stress related to that item/problem.
      Not everything can be top level priority, we have to chose.
      Not everything has to be a five alarm fire, keep an eye peeled for “synthetic crisises” and do not get caught up in them.
      Watch less news.
      After what I have been through, I take the statement, “I need to rest for a month” very seriously.

    21. Emily*

      I have!

      If this is a once-in-a-while thought, you’re probably okay. If you’re thinking this a lot, you probably do need a break. The last time I was having these feelings regularly, I was saddled with a graduate school advisor who was not meeting my needs. I switched advisors a few months ago and most of the feelings stopped.

  58. Bigglesworth*

    I have a question for anyone who lives/works in the DC area concerning work attire or who work in law. I have just started law school and was told that two things that concern me.

    1) Women in law have to wear heels.
    2) Working in Northern Virginia means you have to wear a skirt suit instead of a pantsuit, as well as pantyhose.

    As a young woman who has arthritis in her hips and feet, the heels thing concerns me. I have heels, but I don’t tend to wear them very often due to the pain I can be in at the end of the day. I also hate pantyhose and have always felt more comfortable pants.

    I know I’ll adapt to whatever the working standard is here, but I would like to know what is true and what isn’t before going out and buying a suit.

    Also, where is a good place to buy suits? I have plenty of work attire (blazers, pants, blouses, etc.), but no suits.

    1. LawBee*

      You don’t have to wear heels. As far as the rest of it goes, it depends on the firm you’re working in, and the norms of that area. Law schools are notoriously out of touch in that regard.

      I haven’t seen pantyhose in court in years. So far, though, judges do seem to prefer women in dresses or skirts, but I have seen pantssuits lately.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Phew! I’m glad to hear that about the heels and pantyhose. Interesting to hear that about judges preferences, though. Thanks!

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I generally buy my suits at Macy’s. Personally, I’m a fan of Nine West and Calvin Klein separates. I also have success at outlet malls. My boss swears by National Harbor, and I had some success there on her recommendation. (Also, I wear flats. But even when I was lawyering, I didn’t have a job that had me in court.)

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I’ve heard about Macy’s a lot, so I’ll have to check them out this weekend. I have a lot of Calvin Klein work dresses (mostly from TJ Maxx) that I would wear with a blazer at my old workplace, but I’ve been told they’re too bright for working in law (think bright red).

        And I’m glad to hear that you wore flats. Do you have any recommendations on suitable work flats? I have a few, but wouldn’t mind upgrading my wardrobe soon.

        1. Emily S.*

          Just to add two cents about flats, Naturalizer makes comfortable ones.
          I’ve gotten them from Zappos in the past but they’re sold lots of places.

          1. Bigglesworth*

            Thanks for the tip! They have a lot of cute shoes on their website. I’ll definitely check them out!

        2. Teapot Librarian*

          So, my feet are “special.” So I rely heavily on the brands that one finds at stores like Comfort One. If you google “dansko josie” you’ll see the type of shoe I like to wear. (It’s got a small heel so might not work for you; I found it as an example rather than as an actual shoe that I own :-) )

        3. Teapot Librarian*

          Also, don’t shell out a lot of money on suits while you’re in school. Get a few for your summer jobs, but while you’re there, see what the other women are wearing. (And if you’re anything like me, you might not wear the same size three years from now.)

          1. Bigglesworth*

            If you don’t mind me asking, what would you say is not a lot of money? $50? $100? Most suits seems to be at least $100 and that’s only with a jacket and skirt/pants.

            1. Teapot Librarian*

              Oh, I meant more like “buy one nice suit for interviewing and maybe a second if you need it” rather than “don’t spend more than $XX on a suit.”

            2. K*

              I work in Bethesda at a business casual firm. We don’t have a dress code, and my boss has never commented on anything I’ve ever worn. Day-to-day work pants run me about $80-$100 and are usually from Anne Taylor. Jackets are around $150 or so. I mix and match with sheath dresses. Flats are fine for most offices, but skip open-toed shoes. I usually wear hose with skirts, and knee-high hose with pants, but I don’t find hosiery uncomfortable and it helps keep me warmer in the office.

              For court I wear a skirt suit, makeup, and heels. I’m not in court often, so I wear the Tom James custom suits I was gifted as a graduation present (costing around $1k each). They’re amazing, were laser cut to my measurements, and give me such confidence. If you’re going to do court work, I highly suggest getting your suits tailored.

              A lot will also depend on the type of law you’re doing. Big business? Suits always. Legal aid? Not so much.

              If you search long and hard, you can find heels that are cute and comfortable if your office requires them. I’m a big fan of Easy Spirit’s patent leather pumps (currently on sale for $30 – I just picked some up last week). I can wear them all day and my feet don’t hurt.

              For summers, I’d look at discount places like Ross or TJ Maxx where you can find some suits that aren’t great quality but will do the job and the price is right.

              1. LW #2 (Not Eeyore Anymore)*

                I’m not sure if you will read this, but I just wanted to say thanks for all of the tips. I really appreciate it!

        4. Cookie D'Oh*

          I have heard good things about the Rockport Total Motion line of shoes. Haven’t tried them myself, but I will when I need to replace some of my older flats.

    3. Sam Yao*

      Law in DC tends to skew very conservative based on my time working there. That was a few years ago, so it’s possible standards have changed a bit, but dressy-casual was the norm, with suits if you were going to court or meeting clients. You would probably be fine wearing pants to the office, and you probably won’t have much trouble finding flat shoes that fit in, but I would expect you will need to wear skirt suits to court. See what the other lawyers in your firm are wearing, and do that.

      I now work for a Boston firm, so another conservative area, and the lawyers here don’t tend to wear heels or hose. Most will still wear skirt suits to court.

      1. CM*

        Agreed, professional flats are fine, skirts only necessary for court, pantyhose only if the judge is extra-sexist. (Editorializing) I like Ann Taylor for suits. I suggest buying a four-piece suit with a jacket, pants, skirt, and sheath dress so you can mix and match. You might like corporette, a website that discusses professional wear for women. Lots of suggestions there for workwear.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          One of the guest speakers for our class mentioned Corporette. I signed up for their newsletter, but haven’t yet gone delving into their archives about clothes.

    4. mondegreen*

      In NYC, not DC, but:

      I got both my 1L and 2L summer internships while interviewing in a pantsuit, although I wear skirts 95% of the time. Weird coincidence. I’ve been told by the career office that pantsuits are fine even for interviews. You can also talk to alumni and students with law firm experience through your $LawSchool Law Women group. The group at my school had an event focused on professional norms, including dress code.

      My first summer was spent in a judicial internship with weekly calendar calls and frequent judge-supervised settlement conferences, so I got to see a somewhat representative sample size. Many women wore pants–and dress flats!–to court. **This depends on a particular judge’s preferences, so if someone with experience practicing before a judge/court gives advice about that judge/court, listen to him or her.** (Should you someday take part in a jury trial, the jury’s potential prejudices will be a consideration, and I defer to actual lawyers on that. You won’t have to worry about that for a while.)

      Although my everyday wardrobe comes mostly from thrift stores, I bought my good interview suit–a black blazer with a matching pair of pants and a skirt, so it more or less doubles as two suits–from the Calvin Klein department at Macy’s during a regular sale.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Good to know! I’m very glad to hear that other female attorneys don’t just want skirt suits and heels.

        Most of my business clothes for my previous job came from thrift stores or TJ Maxx. I’ll definitely have to check out Macy’s to see when their suits go on sale. I’ve found that Calvin Klein work dresses fit me the best, but would be willing to branch out to other brands if they’re durable and fit nicely.

    5. Cookie D'Oh*

      Check out Corporette. There are posts about the most comfortable flats. Also lots of advice about work wear, especially for lawyers and others that work in more conservative industries.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Good to know! I’ve heard of Corporette from a few places, but one of the guest speakers for one of my classes said that we needed to sign up for the newsletter ASAP. Good to hear that others agree with her.

  59. Calacademic*

    Anyone else been burning to know what Allison makes of the Google imbroglio this week? I can’t be the only one…

    2. T3k*

      I’d love to, but at the same time I can see a big pile on coming as well. Would probably have to be closely monitored like that last big letter.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I got a million emails about that this week! Unfortunately I am almost completely checked out of anything not related to my move so am barely paying attention if it doesn’t coming in a moving box.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          Leaving aside the questionable validity of the “science” in question, I’m curious why she thinks it’s Google’s responsibility to allow “open discussion” on whether the female employees are biologically qualified to do their jobs.

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            I also find it cute how the dialogue around this is always “your employer can and should have the right to dismiss you for what you say and do, even outside work, even when that sucks and seems unfair” until it’s a dude writing a pseudoscientific screed about how a large portion of his colleagues are inherently incompetent and should not receive mentorship or career opportunities. Then suddenly it’s suppression.

        2. "Computer Science"*

          I’m stunned at how bad of a take this is on the situation. Buddy created the hostile work environment, and his employer worked to protect their other staff members. This focus on “Maybe the science will follow!” is patently absurd.

          1. sometimeswhy*

            And also many of the folks afraid of speaking up were afraid of/had been threatened with being targeted with coordinated, massive online harassment for speaking out against the harassment or detailing their experiences with it at said town hall.

            Which is a very different thing than being afraid your cubicle neighbor or workgroup colleague will realize you’re a prehistoric jackwagon if you grab the mic and open your face.

          3. Mike C.*

            I really get sick and tired of non-scientists making scientific claims or predictions about fields of study they clearly don’t have any experience in. Even claiming “gosh, who knows!?” when there mountains of data out there gives the false impression that these are legitimate questions to ask when they really aren’t.

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      Ultimately, there’s not much nuance to it, since if you read the memo in question he basically accused Google of breaking the law (claiming that qualified white male applicants were being passed over for “diversity” hires) without any evidence to back that up. But “Man fired for slandering employer” doesn’t draw in the clickbait like “Man fired for Neanderthal views on gender”/”Man fired for FREEZE PEACH!”

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Man, I have been rolling my eyes so hard on the FREEZE PEACH thing. Maybe it’s just being in a position where my job requires me to watch my words like a hawk, but I have so little sympathy for “bloo hoo my job won’t let me say whatever pops into my head bloo hoo hoo”

      2. Bobboccio*

        “I value diversity and inclusion, am not denying that sexism exists, and don’t endorse using stereotypes.”
        “I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more.”
        “Women on average look for more work-life balance… Allowing and truly endorsing (as part of our culture) part time work… can keep more women in tech.” All from his memo

        Doesn’t sound particularly slanderous to me.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          “We can increase representation at an org level by either making it a better environment for certain groups (which would be seen in survey scores) or discriminating based on a protected status (which is illegal and I’ve seen it done)” (emphasis mine). Also from the memo. A direct accusation of illegal activity.

          1. Bobboccio*

            Except that a good faith complaint of discrimination (even if unfounded) cannot be disciplined under whistleblower law in California.

            1. Creag an Tuire*

              Does whistleblower law protect the equivalent of shouting “the management’s a bunch of criminals!” in the employee break room without any attempt to notify the authorities (either company or legal) first? (I dunno, maybe it does in :: sigh :: California.)

        2. Mike C.*

          Read the ladysplaining link posted in this conversation. It goes into the different layers and complexities as to why this memo was a serious problem.

        3. AW*

          People who are sexist/racist claim to not be sexist/racist all the time. In fact, they often do so right before they say something bigoted.

    6. Gandalf the Nude*

      I was similarly curious about her thoughts on the Geek Girl Con departures. It’s been an interesting week in HR-related news.

    8. CM*

      I can’t believe there is even a debate about this, or that it’s framed as a “free speech” issue. If the “speech” that you choose to make publicly is that a large percentage of your colleagues are unqualified, due to biological reasons beyond their control, and this results in your company’s reputation being dragged through the mud and countless hours required to undo some of the damage that you did, firing is 100% percent appropriate. If people are afraid to speak out publicly because they agree that women are inherently less able to do technical work, good. Some types of speech should not be socially acceptable.

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        I mean, for frick’s sake. If homeboy put out a big thing with his name on it that said “I SOMETIMES DON’T LIKE WORKING AT GOOGLE” and they fired him, everyone would acknowledge that your public speech about your employer is in fact subject to possible retaliation from them and that this is generally ok. We would have no debate.

        The bones of it is that he’s saying something a lot of people agree with, and those people already feel like The (Wo)Man is keeping them down and they are freedom fighters clashing against it. People are mad someone was punished for saying something they think is true, and they feel so persecuted by this that they have no qualms whatsoever in flipping entirely against 99% of their own rhetoric about personal responsibility to rally behind it. This debate has exactly nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with bigots being upset that they are increasingly being held accountable for their own choices.

        2. Mike C.*

          Indeed, where’s my “right to free speech” when I call these dudes out?

          Also, can we take a moment to mock the author, who as a biologist, couldn’t tell the difference between natural selection and sexual dimorphism? I mean seriously dude.

        3. Wolfram alpha*

          Yes. It reminds me of the alright getting mad that they were banned from using Airbnb and then screaming – I kid you not – discrimination!!!!!

          Um you are a group that believes in the inherent superiority of whites and the importance of limiting the population growth of non whites no?

        4. Zathras*

          As a woman in tech it makes me incredibly angry that this kind of thing is even taken seriously. The fact that someone can post a rant full of easily refuted pseudo-scientific garbage about women and have people rush to defend him is infuriating. Women who write about their actual experiences with discrimination and marginalization, or about actual science showing that these conditions exist, are taken far less seriously.

          My favorite was when he created the false dichotomy between empathy and rationality. I hate to break it to you, dudebro, but you can have both of those things at the same time.

      2. SadOne*

        I can’t believe it either. Try imagining that he wrote that about people with a certain color of skin. Would that be acceptable?

        The fact that so many people believe it’s acceptable to say all that about women shows that we live in an incredible sexist society.

    9. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Oh, one of my coworkers talked about it today! He insisted that there is “enough evidence” to conclude that women will never be decent Devs because our brains lack the ability to code properly. Shame, I considered him to be someone worth disagreeing with, now he is just another whiny meninist brogrammer.

      1. Mike C.*

        Ask him if that’s the case how Harvey Mudd College was able to shift the gender ratio of graduating CS majors from “Silicon Valley Norm” to “1:1” in just a few years mainly by shifting around the introductory programming course. This is mentioned in the “Ladysplaining” article above.

        If it’s all genetic, that wouldn’t have happened. Turns out when you split people into different sections based on experience while teaching the same material, people who haven’t been programming since they were 3 don’t self select out and end up pursuing degrees they otherwise wouldn’t have.

        If you feel the need of course, it’s always nice to have something in your back pocket.

        1. Fake old Converse shoes*

          Thanks! I limited to look at him confused and asked “are you being serious?”. I guess that’s enough for now.

      2. Panda Bandit*

        Your idiot coworker doesn’t even know the history of his career field. The first computer programmers were women and programming was considered a woman’s job. Article to follow.

    10. ..Kat..*

      He lied about having a PhD, when he only had a Masters. So I think they are safe in firing him. But I have to ask – what is up with the really bad background checking when hiring people at this level.

      1. OhNo*

        Also it always cracks me up that some people seems to believe an advanced degree in field A makes them qualified to talk about field B. Even among people with PhDs in B there are plenty of people who are seen as black sheep in the field, not to mention the authority of the persons who actually have degrees in something different to talk about B.

        I actually have a PhD in one of the fields he quoted in his memo. What he refers to in the memo is pseudoscience. There’s plenty of research that confirms he talks rubbish.

  60. AAM Reader*

    I’m in an entry-level job, my first after college. I have been asked by the head of my department to help with screening resumes/cover letters for new hires. I’m honored to be tapped for this and take it as a sign that the department head trusts me, but I’ve never done this before and having recently come into the position after a long job search, I feel a little uneasy whenever I sort someone into the “no” pile. Any tips?

    1. Saviour Self*

      You are doing your department head a great service by sorting them for her. Not everyone who applies to a position is qualified. And that’s okay. It isn’t your fault that they aren’t the strongest candidate or that they don’t meet the requirements of the position.

      Keep in mind that you won’t be doing your job if you put everyone in the “yes” pile and that it is nothing personal when you put someone in the “no” pile.

    2. SilverRadicand*

      It makes me feel better to put them in “grade” piles: A, B, C, D/F. I rarely get down to C’s or below, but at least then I wasn’t saying absolutely not (unless they are going in the circular file beneath me desk I suppose).

    3. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      Sometimes people really self sort themselves into that no pile. Someone with no cover letter who sends a three page resume geared entirely towards their scientific publications about literal rockets when we’re clearly hiring for an entry level position focused on the financial industry? That’s someone who is a no, without it being a judgment on them as a person (I say no cover letter, because maybe if I’d known why this person was applying, I would have looked at it differently).

      Also check around about any notes you take or labels you put on folders for hiring. You can get in trouble that way.

  61. boop*

    Hi AAM! Long story short: I left my field (digital marketing) a few years ago because I wanted to pursue a career change. However, as I’ve been doing freelance digital marketing to pay my bills, I’ve come to realize that digital marketing is, after all, what I want to do. I’m finishing my graduate degree now and looking for jobs- how do I discuss this without sounding like a flake?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Well, you’ve been freelancing, so I would just present it as you wanted to work on your own for a while, and now you’re looking to transition back to an in-house role.

      No one has to know you were a grad student if your degree doesn’t relate to the field. Leave it off your resume if you think it will hurt you!

    2. Argh!*

      I did something similar. I went to grad school for a related field then went back to work in a job that combined my old profession & my grad school work. Coming back to a field you’ve left with a line like “Having seen how the other half lives, I wanted my old life back” (something like that but classier of course) That shows commitment, not that you’re a flake.

  62. Crylo Ren*

    Any suggestions on how to make your first few week(s) in the job more valuable and productive? I know the typical advice is to absorb as much as possible and ask questions…but what are some smart questions to ask?

    I guess after my last nightmare job where they wanted me to make huge decisions literally within an hour of my first day, I’m not used to just…absorbing, and I don’t know if there’s a smarter way to do it. I was never really given the chance to ask questions at my last job (I’d be looked at like I was crazy or just be given ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ in response) so I feel unpracticed in that regard.

    1. CM*

      I don’t think it’s about asking smart questions. It’s more about being curious and trying to figure out what you’re expected to do and how you can do it well. For example, if the company does something a specific way and you don’t really understand why, you can ask about that. If you are not clear on your role in the group or in the company, ask about that. Anyway, you will have the opportunity to ask questions throughout your work there — if it takes you a while to get warmed up, that’s OK.

    2. LQ*

      We’ve got a new person (he’s a few months now) and the question I most want him to ask is why do we do it that way? Or why not Other Way? And What’s the goal of Thing?
      (My hope is he’s not asking because I’m giving him the information so he doesn’t need to ask, but there’s no way I’m that good.)

  63. Anon, good nurse*

    I’m wondering what people’s opinions are on “interviewing to show interest”.
    This applies to internal job changes or promotions. My husband was recently encouraged by his manager to apply for a position that would be lateral in position, but for a more prestigious and specialized team. His manager also told him he wouldn’t get the job, but that it was important that he apply so that people know he’s interested in it.
    Maybe it was just the way his manager handled it, but he’s actually really discouraged by the conversation. It is a job he is qualified for, so telling him he won’t get it was kind of a kick in the stomach. Now he feels like the whole thing is a waste of his time. (The reason he wouldn’t get it is that the hiring gives strong deference to tenure. He’s only been with the company 2.5 years and there are a lot of people who have been there much longer.)
    Anyway, I know I’ve heard this tossed around a bunch – that you should throw your hat in the ring for these types of opportunities so management knows you are interested in progressing your career, but I also wonder why you wouldn’t have those conversations with your manager and wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing. So I’m wondering if interviewing for the purpose of showing interest is really a waste of time or if there is some benefit to it?

    2. CM*

      I think there is absolutely a benefit. I have been part of hiring processes where it was a big plus for a candidate to have previously applied for the job. It shows that they were interested and remain interested, and that they were presumably at least somewhat qualified when they first applied and have probably only gained skills since then. Also, if we interviewed them before, we know a little about them already, so we won’t be wasting our time. An interview also gets your husband in front of people he might not otherwise get to talk to. Even if he doesn’t get this job, if his interviewers are impressed, it could be good for your husband down the road — he could keep in touch with them, and they could potentially introduce him to people or other positions.

    3. Lana Kane*

      Well, your husband knows already that the company places a lot of importance on longevity, so his manager pointing it out shouldn’t really be taken as discouraging. That his manager is urging him to apply anyway probably means that he wants to encourage his growth opportunities.

      I was once encouraged by a previous supervisor to apply for her job, since she was leaving. It was clear to me that I wouldn’t get it, and she knew that too, but she told me it would be good for me to make myself known. I was given the interview, at least partly on the strength of her recommending me, and I was able to meet some higher ups. A few months later those same people knew me when I applied for something else and it was a great benefit to have already met them in an interview capacity.

  64. AnnaleighUK*

    The hiring woes to replace my fired coworker continue – another week, another pile of useless applications. We asked our HR department where they were posting the position and they said they’d posted it on the industry boards (well, we’ve not seen it) and had, and I quote, ‘sent it off to a bunch of agencies to see what they could find’. As in, general agencies and not industry specific ones. Which is why we’re getting loads of applications from people who don’t have an architecture or structural engineering background. We work in building control so yeah, kind of need that.

    So anyway Manager has had a Stern Word with the HR manager and hopefully the position will be filled soon, my workload is getting silly now. As in, pulling twelve hour days just to get my regular work done. I’m here till 7pm again tonight and it’s just 4.30pm now, and I got in at 7.30am so yeah…

    And a word on my car – she’s all fixed up and the guy who hit me (he reversed into me at a petrol station) admitted fault and his insurance has paid for the repairs. I guess he was just angry when he yelled at me last week. All sorted, my impractical German gas guzzler is back on the road!

  65. HRQueezy*

    Guys – I’m working on my resume as an HR professional. My specialization is Labour Relations (I’ve never hired, seen another persons resume, I’ve never planned an event etc…) I work on the conflict heavy side of HR. Closing stores, planning layoff strategies, terminating people (cause or without cause) and conducting workpalce investigations into human rights and discrimination.

    How do I frame all this as accomplishments? It seems weird to say “terminated 5 people in one month.”

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Unfortunately, coordinating layoffs has become a fairly big part of my job lately…Some of the indicators of success that we talk about are: minimizing the number of complaints and grievances, and direct feedback from impacted staff (i.e. we have actually gotten several thank you notes from staff for how the processes were handled). Are there things like that that you could frame?

    2. Saviour Self*

      In addition to what Jillociraptor said, could you speak to the processes you’ve created, how smoothly things went, how you minimized impact on the organization and/or the people being downsized, cost savings, etc.?

  66. Dav*

    I just left a nightmare job where I suffered for 5 years, working 60 hours a week. My boss was a gaslighting control freak, and I struggle now with anxiety and self-esteem. Every time an email arrives, I feel a rush of adrenaline. Every time my phone rings, my stomach clenches.

    I have a couple months before starting a new position, and I am anxious about doing well. Any advice on getting into a good headspace so I don’t drag in previous job issues? Therapy, obviously – what else? I want to do right by my new position.

    1. extra anon today*

      Do something to totally unplug for a few days. Turn off your phone, get a lot of exercise. Get out of the headspace. And yeah, definitely therapy.

    2. Natalie*

      I wonder if it would help to turn off the pop-up email notifications entirely, just for a little while. Of course you would have to make a point to deliberately check your email every X minutes (whatever interval makes sense for your work) but you wouldn’t be constantly retriggering your panic feelings. Depending on your particular schedule, you might also turn your phone ringer off for some periods of time when you want to concentrate and not worry about anxiety attacks.

      1. TL -*

        My email doesn’t go to my phone. If I’m not at my computer, I usually can’t respond anyways. If I’m not at work, I’m not paid enough to check my email off hours.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was unemployed for 4 months last year (left my dysfunctional job exactly a year ago last week), and while I had to deal with the stress of job-hunting, I also did a bunch of things to reset my head after being so burned out:

      – I started baking regularly. I have always liked to cook, but I wanted to challenge myself to do something fun and new. Upped my bread game! (So: spend some time with a hobby or project you’ve been neglecting or have always wanted to try.)
      – Let myself watch Netflix all damn day long if I wanted to. I went through all of Mad Men again and several seasons of The Great British Bake-Off.
      – Did some one-off volunteer gigs. A favorite was helping at registration for a local art museum’s camp-out. I spent some time talking to new people and feeling useful without a regular commitment.
      – Read books. A lot of books. I like to read and hadn’t had the urge to do it in ages.
      – Made it a point to do things with friends. All of that work anxiety kept me at home in my down time because I simply couldn’t face the world.
      – Kept my house clean and organized. It gave me a sense of purpose without having to THINK so damn much.
      – Took a retail job. Now, at the time I did this because I needed some money (I barely made pocket change, but it stopped some of the bleeding from my severance), but looking back, it was an AMAZING reset. I felt useful and had a routine several days a week, and when I left the store after my shift, I was DONE. Over. No emails, no weekend or evening work, just done. I reminded myself that I’m great at interacting with people. I learned a lot and got to directly apply that and previous knowledge in a way that made people happy.

      There’s a pattern here, mostly in that my self-esteem had been ground so far down at my old job that I was feeling worthless. I had to re-gain a sense that I am helpful and useful. I didn’t start therapy until a few months into my new job, and I wish I’d started it sooner, but that time to just completely let go and re-adjust was priceless. Good luck!

    4. Anlyn*

      Figure out the things you like to do and do them as much as possible (and if finances allow). You like walks? Walk everywhere. Riding bikes? Same. Beekeeping? Name each bee. The more you do the things you enjoy, the better you’ll feel about yourself.

      Meditation and yoga (especially hatha) always helps me to relax and get in a good headspace.

    5. Academia Escapee*

      I had a very similar situation with my last job. My supervisor was a screamer/constant mind changer/had expectations of everyone reading his mind. I lost all confidence in myself and my ability to do a good job at anything (even though I’ve never had anything but glowing performance reviews throughout my career. I almost sabotaged myself and my current job because of my heads space about it. I had to remind myself that these people didn’t know my past job or my performance there. If I acted like the new superstar, I could be that person. So I basically had to fake it until I made it. But it worked. I’m 2 years in and I love my job (and the President comes to me for my opinion on everything because he trusts my judgement).

    6. Chaordic One*

      It sounds like you are on the right path and that you are practicing good self-care.

      After I left my nightmare job, I never really started to get over it until I started my new job. Of course, I was fired from nightmare job and even though I busted my ass and was rocking the hell out of it in that job, the message I received was “I don’t want to be around you.” Getting interviews and, finally, a new job made me feel like someone wanted me, or would at least consider me a potentially valuable employee.

      Over time it gets easier.

      1. Windchime*

        I had a couple of months off last year; I took a leave due to anxiety and depression from chaotic and mean management. During my break, I did visits to my GP for medications, therapy and a lot of knitting. I was seriously interviewing when I came back and ended up giving notice shortly thereafter when I was hired by my current company. I was feeling a little better, but it wasn’t until I got into a stable environment with a sane, caring, reasonable boss that I started to feel better. Now it’s been almost a year and I feel like my normal, happy self. That old job was traumatic and terrible, but it’s really good to know that there can be a cool, happy, reasonable job on the other side.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Get in the habit of using affirmations. When the negative thoughts pop into your head have a positive statement ready and make yourself repeat the positive statement.

      “Toxic place is not happening any more. It is over.”
      “Mouthy coworker is not here any more, they are gone from my life.”

      I understand that this sounds lame. And at first it kind of is, because those negative thoughts are so freakin’ strong.
      Keep doing it, keep repeating affirmations to yourself.
      I like this idea because it’s portable. I am driving in my car and suddenly I am overwhelmed by situation X at work. I start with the affirmations. OR It’s late at night, I wake up suddenly in sheer panic over tomorrow. Pull out the affirmations, start repeating positive things.
      It’s retraining our brains. Our brains learned to expect Bad most of the time. So we have to deliberately say, “No, that is simply not true, Brain. Old job is over, we are good here.”

      Not much different than a broken arm, the damage done by toxic workplaces take a bit to over come. We need to see ourselves having several positive experiences before we can break out of the overwhelming fear. This is important to know, seek out positive experiences as often as possible. Stack the deck in your favor.

      Anxiety can have it’s roots in feeling uncared for and/or lack of knowledge or power. So when you start feeling anxious about anything, a good affirmation might be, “I will take care of me. I will figure out what to do with this New Worry and I will take care of the worry and myself at the same time.”

      One last thought and this is one I had to use on myself because shaking off those old images was not easy. “If I want people to give me a chance, I have to give them a chance. This means that I cannot assume they are toxic until they prove that to me.” This one is a little rough, because I had to admit that I was assuming I would have a bad experience with a person that I barely knew. I had to decide to cut people the same slack I wanted for myself. Tough stuff.

      1. Windchime*

        I love your second-to-last paragraph, NSNR. This is something that my therapist helped me to realize — that I am a smart and capable person, and I will land on my feet.

        I also listened to Gloria Gaynor’s “I Will Survive” on almost continuous repeat. It might seem goofy, but it really made me feel stronger.

        ….
        Do you think I’d crumble
        Did you think I’d lay down and die?

        Oh no, not I, I will survive
        Oh, as long as I know how to love, I know I’ll stay alive
        I’ve got all my life to live
        And I’ve got all my love to give and I’ll survive
        I will survive

        1. Not So NewReader*

          There are a few songs out there that will pull me up when the chips seem down. If you can get the tunes to down out Negative Nancy that would be a cool thing.

  67. Myrin*

    My sister is resigning from her job today, effective October 1.

    The supermarket was bought last year by another chain and they’ve been in the process of implementing the changes which come with that and my sister isn’t a fan of any of them (on ethical grounds in many cases, whodda thought? I definitely didn’t and my whole family has decided to not shop at this store in the future anymore).

    The biggest problem is her supervisor, though – they actually get along well personally but she must be a horrid boss to endure. She seems completely incompetent (leaves two hours early to go on a date with her new boyfriend, messes up her employees’ schedules left and right, alienates every other worker with her behaviour, runs afoul of several labour laws; heck, my sister’s been trying to resign for a week and yet she hasn’t yet managed to get ahold of her boss despite them actually having multiple shifts together) and it appears likely that she’s on her way out as well but my sister doesn’t want to take the risk of that not panning out.

    It’s especially frustrating because, as many regular readers may remember, my sister has severe mental health problems and the problems with her boss have slowly started to eat her up to the point that she said last weeks she’s approaching a point just like October 2015 which is when she wanted to kill herself. Her boss was so happy to have her back when she returned after a long stay at the mental ward of our local hospital and happily agreed to my sister’s condition that there will be one day every week where she needs to see a therapist and won’t be able to come to work; and yet more often than not, her boss schedules her shift for exactly the day and time when my sister has an appointment, which she has always let her boss known at least a week beforehand. Needless to say, it’s beyond frustrating and she doesn’t want to do it anymore despite loving her other coworkers and the whole atmosphere a lot.

    I hope she’ll finally be able to actually talk to her boss today and that she’ll swiftly find another, better job after all this.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Oh, it sounds like your sis has my old boss. She did every one of these things to as many people as she could.

      Tell your sis to make two copies of her resignation letter. Give one to her boss’ boss and put the other one in the boss’ mail slot or on her desk. There, done, over.
      She can just tell Grandboss that she has had bad luck catching her immediate boss. She needs to give notice because of time constraints so she is giving her formal notice to Grandboss. (Also could use HR.)

  68. The Green Lawintern*

    Hi all! I was wondering what everyone thought about interns giving workplace advice to other, more inexperienced interns? My internship office had an undergrad intern who did/said some not cool things (ex: tugging my skirt jokingly – in this case I gave him a Look and he immediately mumbled out a sorry and we moved on) and it was unlikely that his supervisor would ever catch these incidents, since she was often out of office – it would have been me or no one. I’m wondering how everyone here would have handled the situation? Just FYI, he’s ended his internship and is back at school now.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Don’t ever touch me again, and you really shouldn’t touch other coworkers either” doesn’t fall under the label of “inappropriate advice from a peer,” as far as I’m concerned.

    3. mondegreen*

      Law student intern with several years of work experience here.

      I think that’s absolutely appropriate. First, he intruded on your personal space, and you were completely justified in asking him not to do that. Second, no reasonable workplace would consider skirt-tugging acceptable. (Just last week, I asked a permanent employee not to jokingly punch me on the arm, and I still received positive exit evaluations.)

      In less unambiguous instances, I try to (a) appropriately hedge what I’m saying, phrasing it in terms of my experience rather than a universal mandate (“for me, it really helps to print a draft out and proofread before submitting to a supervisor”) and (b) make sure only a small percentage of my interactions with that person are correcting/advising.

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        Law interns unite! I think my main concern is that I was fine setting boundaries with him, but I felt conflicted as to if I should teach him WHY these things were bad.

    4. Sadsack*

      I think in that situation, you had every right to tell someone not to tug on your shirt and that he probably shouldn’t tug on anyone else’s shirts or put hands on people in general.

  69. Not really a waitress*

    IN the continuing saga of yet another reason to quit my job and go work at Waffle House…

    I work for a company that is a franchise/operator which runs 6 tea shops DBA as the Corporate company

    One of our managers at one of our sites cut her hand this weekend while on the job with a box cutter. It wasn’t long but evidently it was deep. And wouldn’t stop bleeding. MGR was only one on duty… an ambulance was called, another manager was called to cover. But the EMTs got there and couldn’t stop bleeding. Owner/HR was on phone with EMTS asking them to wait to leave for hospital until another manager got there. So the shop wouldn’t be without a manager (one was stuck in traffic so they called another one who was on way) Emts finally said they couldn’t wait anymore because THEY COULDN’T STOP THE BLEEDING.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      When my mother worked retail, she also cut her hand open with a box cutter. She was also the manager on duty. It took an extra hour for her to get proper treatment not because they were waiting on another manager to take over. Oh, no. It’s because it was ten minutes until her lunch break, and their runner was on his way back with Boston Market. She duct taped her bleeding hand and picked apart a rotisserie chicken and only went to get her stitches after she was done eating. Retail really messes with your head.

    3. ..Kat..*

      So they expected her to take care of business and customers while bleeding uncontrollably? WTF

  70. SMH*

    My SO’s former student just graduated high school and will be attending the college I work at. My coworker is looking for a student worker, so I told him about it. He seemed very polite and enthusiastic about the job. I sent her his resume a few weeks ago.

    Flash forward to yesterday: I asked my coworker if she ever got in touch with him. She said emailed him 2 weeks ago, but he never got back to her. I reached out to him to find out what happened and he said she emailed him asking to schedule an interview, but he was busy with a class and wouldn’t have time to interview. He said he was really interested in the position, so he figured he would email her back to schedule an interview once he finished his class… 4 weeks after her initial email!!!

    Oh boy, I just wanted to throttle him. Given that he’s so young and new to the work world, I explained politely as I could that he should still respond to her email and explain his situation, because from her perspective it looks like he ghosted on her.

    1. Kathenus*

      Kudos to you for explaining this to him. Could turn out to be a great work-related life lesson learned early enough to really help him in his career.

  71. MuseumMusings*

    I’ve been posting the past couple of weeks about making mistakes and the anxiety that accompanied this. I touched base with my boss yesterday and framed it as me wanting to make sure that I was doing the best thing possible for the company and if he had any reservations and he totally blew me away with his response.

    While I had been worried about him seeing this as a chain of events from an incompetent admin, he had been seeing them as one-off events. He said he was impressed by how I came to him with what the problem was, how I fixed it, and how I would make sure it didn’t happen in the future so he felt no need to discuss it further with me. I’m so glad I was able to talk to him and see that my anxiety and insecurities were making a mountain out of a molehill! I feel so much better and secure in my position and already I’m seeing an improvement in my tasks!

    1. fposte*

      Yay! I think this is so often the case, and that it’s going to be more useful to get on the same page with your boss’s perspective than to panic silently. Good for you for doing so!

      1. MuseumMusings*

        It was really a relief. I do have to forward the desk phone to my cell phone whenever I get up to get tea, but I don’t have to worry about bathroom visits any more, so that’s nice.

  72. Isben Takes Tea*

    I’m so excited to see the quotes from Taylor Swift’s testimony coming out–an excellent modeling of the AaM defense “*I* didn’t get him fired, *he* got *himself* fired.”

    2. Snark*

      I especially loved how his attorney was like, “well, you were standing closer to his wife,” and she’s like “Well, yeah, because she wasn’t the one trying to grab my ass.”

      1. Jillociraptor*

        And “My ass is in the back of my body” as her explanation for why she didn’t have an unimpeded view of the groping. It really takes a lot of strength and confidence to subvert all these sexist norms and while I hate that this happened to her, I really appreciate the example she’s setting.

        1. Snark*

          The more we can subvert the practice of asking ridiculous, insultingly dumb questions of women to try to insinuate that they don’t really know whether they were assaulted or not, the better. I love how she’s treating them as if they’re exactly as asinine as they are.

    3. Artemesia*

      She handled that interview as a boss — amazing. She kept the focus exactly on him and his behavior. My personal favorite was when the lawyer asked why her skirt wasn’t lifted up in front in the picture if he had ‘lifted up her skirt’. Her response was to the effect of ‘my ass is in the back of my body.’ I don’t know any women my age (Old) who have not had their crotch grabbed at least once in their life, or been subjected to some sort of awful physical grope. Most of us have had dozens of experiences of sexual harassment ranging from cat calling to actual assault. The case is still proceeding against her mother and manager; hope the jury has the good sense to send this guy packing.

  73. HKM*

    I was promoted to manager in March, and I’m regretting applying for the promotion. I wanted the job so I could be an advocate for the teapot makers on my team, but I’m finding myself fighting against so many budget restrictions and insane client requests that I’m melting down. Any advice on how to take all these issues less personally?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Pick your battles. As a manager you can’t win them all. And all of this will seem like the new norm and you’ll be able to just go with it in a few months.

    2. Snark*

      Honestly? Other than repeating to yourself, “this isn’t personal, this is directed at my job title not me,” there’s not a golden bullet. You just have to believe it’s not personal.

    3. Kathenus*

      Decide which ones are in your realm of influence. If they’re not, let them go since you have no power to change them. If they are within your sphere, prioritize ones that are either low-hanging fruit for easy victories, or ones that would have the biggest impact in helping support your team. Set realistic expectations for yourself, and within your team, for what improvements are realistic and on what schedule they might be feasible.

      And with the budget restrictions, the phrase ‘within our current resources’ should be your friend. Lots of things in my areas are discussed with this as the caveat – what would you like to change ‘within our current resources’, what are your priorities ‘within our current resources’, etc.

  74. Billingsworth*

    For those of you who work in industries where you are required to bill your hours (but not law!), what percentage billable hours are you expected to maintain? I’ve recently switched industries and feel like the % they expect us to maintain is super high, but maybe my expectations are out of whack.

    1. Applesauced*

      100% We’re expected to bill 40+ hours, and are assigned (not actually expected to WORK this much) 40-50 hours per week (like you *can* bill that much without messing up budgets, but if you don’t work that many hours, don’t bill the hours)
      I’ve posted here before about no “overhead” billing code… it’s annoying.

  75. Over educated*

    I’m keenly feeling the pitfalls of balancing two careers right now. Spouse and I are both in non-permanent jobs and searching at the same time, and neither of us has one of those really mobile careers like a doctor, teacher, programmer, etc., so there aren’t opportunities for us in any random town; people in our fields tend to have to move for jobs.

    I got an interview for one of those “dream jobs on paper” (though it’s possible the hours, pay, or benefits could make it less so in practice), in a region of the country we’d both like to move back to…but it’s in a small city with only one potential employer for spouse, others anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours away, and no guarantee that there would be an opening in his field in any of them any time soon. OTOH, if I withdrew or turned down this job out of concern for his prospects, there’s a fairly sizable chance we would end up in a similar type of location with a job for him, but not for me. (He’s more employable than I am, I’d say; I received a comparable offer previously and turned it down due to a conflict with his position at the time, and that was two years ago, so if that happened again I think I’d have to commit to switching fields.) We’re both in our 30s at this point and still trying to get established after grad school, so it feels like where 3-5 years of solid work vs. underemployment would make or break either of our future careers – this next move, where one of us has to go permanent, feels high stakes.

    I’m not sure what the best outcome or the right answer is here, but I’m interested in hearing how others have managed this challenge. And please wish me luck in rocking the interview and getting an offer we could survive on – I don’t even have the job yet, but it would be great to be able to choose!

    1. Over educated*

      (PS by “I got an interview,” I mean I’ve had one phone interview, one Skype interview, and now they’re offering to fly me in. So only now is it starting to feel serious enough to get excited and anxious about.)

    2. over educated*

      Ouch, so that rejection came quickly and out of nowhere before I even interviewed. “You have excellent qualifications and we were excited to have you visit but we had a great candidate who meets additional criteria we were looking for and made that person an offer today.” So much for dream jobs, I guess. The sad thing is that it’s with an organization I care about personally, and it’s not unlikely that I will know the person who got the job given how niche it is, so after I get over the initial sadness I’m probably going to get the lovely surprises of having it rubbed in my face by social media later.

      Man, it stinks to go back to the uncertainty of being the “trailing spouse” and wondering whether I need to transition to a field with more opportunities. Maybe that job I turned down two years ago really WAS my only chance. If I’d known that there wouldn’t be others to come along, I might’ve decided long distance marriage was a necessary evil rather than a last resort.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It’s okay. I’m a firm believer that there is no such thing as a dream job–I could be penning best-sellers and hobnobbing at Hollywood parties and dating ALL THE CELEB MENZ and there would still be stuff about it that sucks balls.

        There will be other chances, for both of you!

        1. Overeducated*

          I know all jobs have their flaws, and this one had a couple yellow flags (likely long hours, a search for new leadership with unpredictable potential changes). But it would have put me right where I’ve been trying to get professionally for years…everything else is plan B,C,D, etc.

          Surprisingly I am not as broken up over it as I expected to be though. Huh. Wonder why. Maybe it wasn’t as great as it looked and my subconscious realized…?

    3. Argh!*

      I know someone who did exactly that and the spouse got a great job at the only place that could use someone with his qualifications. If you want to be in that part of the country, it’s a stepping stone for both of you to develop connections that may pay off later. (And if they don’t, you have a good story to tell in your next interview)

  76. Shark Whisperer*

    This may be putting the cart way before the horse, but I want advice anyways. In a sister department to mine, the manager was recently promoted and his position is open. He encouraged me to apply, but I am having mixed feelings. The department is a mess, but a lot of the issues I think are fixable and were caused in the first place by the promoted manager not wanting to actually fix any of the problems/ not seeing them. It may be naive or idealistic of me, but I think I could actually create some positive change in that department. I have a strong background in one of the areas they are really weak on, I am not afraid to fire people (there are two staff members in that department that should definitely been fired years ago), and I have a good report already with a lot of the staff in that department from projects we’ve worked on together, so I think I could get buy-in from them. So basically, I have two questions:
    A) Is it crazy to walk in to what you already know is a mismanaged mess and has been for years and think you can change it?
    B) Is there a way to ask/ say in the interview that there are changes I want to make and if I won’t have higher-up support to make those changes then I don’t want the job?

    1. Batshua*

      I’m not sure if there’s a diplomatic way to handle B in an interview, but maybe you could make discreet inquiries BEFORE the interview? Like, talk to folks in the department to get a feel for why/how things were so horribly mismanaged?

    2. vacay buy*

      A) definitely not crazy if you think the changes are fixable
      B) I’m a big proponent of being up front about this type of thing. I wouldn’t phrase it as “if you’re not supportive I won’t take the job”, but I would say you want to make these changes and why, and are they supportive of that? If you get a sense that you’ll get anything less than wholehearted support, you can always turn down the job if it’s offered to you (and explain why, if you’d like).

    3. T3k*

      I’d first try to get a feel if that department is open to changes. I admire those who come in and clean up the mess, so to speak, but I know many others do not (at my last job, I was asked to set up a new organization for orders, but nobody wanted to actually learn the new way so it flopped).

    4. ..Kat..*

      Can you ask the previous manager about this. He would have a good feel for whether you would be successful making changes.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      For b I would ask what the extent of my authority would be. Are there any constraints I should be aware of going into the job. If you want you might say, “I see some stuff going on that is fixable, but I want to know if I will be given the latitude to fix it.”

  77. Batshua*

    I don’t have a release date for my new job yet, and my soon-to-be-lead is Concerned because they have promised me a MONTH of on-the-job-training since while this job technically has the same title and duties, in reality there’s a lot of important and complex little details that I know nothing about.

    I’m going to inquire on Monday if I don’t hear news by EOB. I’m slightly nervous I might not get released by R”H after all…

  78. HOD*

    Had a job interview last week where they asked for references at the end. I sent them not realizing my boss is out of town this week! Should I contact the interviewers and let them know?

    1. Batshua*

      Yes, but try to make the contact sound light and not frantic. Like “Oh, by the way, I just realized my boss is out of town next week! They’ll be back on X date. Sorry for any confusion.”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        One of my major references is traveling in Canada right now (and making me super jealous with pics of glaciers). This is exactly what I plan to do if asked.

    2. Argh!*

      …or they could assume you have the kind of boss I have, who never tells her reports when she’s going on vacation until the morning of the first day of vacation. Ditto for conferences.

  79. Qwerty*

    Any suggestions for creating writing samples when writing is not part of the job you have now?

    Many of the jobs I’ve been applying for lately have asked for writing samples. I’ve been in my current position as an editor for nearly ten years so I don’t have any professional writing from this period. Before that I worked as a reporter, and I’ve been using articles I wrote back then as my samples to send potential employers. But I feel that those articles are now pretty dated, and the jobs I’m looking for seem to want samples of newsletters, social media, marketing, etc. The only thing I can come up with is writing these samples for a fake company. Of course, I would clearly let the employer know what I did, but it just seems sort of amateurish.

    Has anyone else had this problem? Any solutions I’m overlooking?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Ha I just had a similar question and was coming to ask for advice too!

      A job I want to apply for asks for writing samples (but no suggestions beyond that.)

      I have published a few essays (2-3 pages) and written newsletters in my current job. My published essays are frankly better written (pitched at undergrads or high school students), but the newsletter are less academic and more about branding and company-news/events.

      Other than that, I’m not really quite sure what I might consider a good “writing” sample. (I think elsewhere in this blog there has been discussion about writing a writing sample, but so far, I have had no time.)

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Good question. Some of mine are old as the hills. Fiction tends not to age as much as non-fiction in terms of content but if you haven’t published in a while, doesn’t that look kind of like “Eh, not relevant”?

    3. Mimmy*

      I’ve run into this dilemma myself. I haven’t looked for writing jobs lately but may start looking again in the near future so I too need some ideas. I only have a couple of published newsletter articles and one poster presentation, and the most recent was 2010.

  81. La Gaviota*

    I have an interview coming up next week that I am very excited about! I’m trying not to put all my emotional eggs in that basket, if you will, but job hunting has been tough. Best interview prep tips? Good luck charms? Heartening stories of when you aced an interview?

    2. Kathenus*

      Two things that have worked for me. One is to write down some bullet points to collect your thoughts on frequently asked questions like strengths, weaknesses, accomplishments, dealing with a negative interaction, why you’re a strong candidate/fit for the job, why you want to work for that specific organization, etc. For me, writing things helps me remember them better, and sometimes doing this allows me to better focus my answers. Second, and it took years, age, and experience to get to this, is realizing that it’s more important to answer the questions honestly versus trying to give the answer you think they are looking for. If you’re good at the latter you may be able to impress someone and get a job, but at the end of the day if you and the organization don’t really align, you may find over time that you’re not as happy in the job/at the organization than you might be if your honest answers were a match to what they were looking for.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I have a pair of small green plastic Care Bears that I put in my purse or in a jacket pocket when I go on interviews or have to make a presentation. They’re “Do Your Best Bear” and “Good Luck Bear.”

  82. LadyL*

    Hello all! I hope you have a wonderful weekend!

    Lately my workplace has joined the “no problem IS a problem” bandwagon, and I’m wondering if you have thoughts on that.

    If you’re lucky enough not to be in the know, this is basically an argument about semantics that has overtaken the customer service field. Basically when you perform a service for a customer and they say thank you, how do you respond? It is common for people to respond, “no problem!” meaning, “serving you was not a problem!” but some feel that is unacceptable. Some people think the only correct response is, “You’re welcome” which means “you’re welcome to impose upon me!”. I have also been told the only acceptable response to “thank you” is “my pleasure,” meaning “I find pleasure in serving you”. There is also a generational component here, with younger folks trending towards “no problem” and (some) older folks thinking it’s rude and that only the others are acceptable.

    Supposedly “no problem” is rude because it’s two negative words and we should only be using positive words with customers, and we must not tell them “this was not a problem” because that implies that it *could* be a problem to serve a customer, and it is untrue and impossible that helping a customer could ever be a problem for us in any way (you can probably sense my eyes rolling here). Needless to say I find both these explanations unsatisfying. Also I was always taught that nitpicking the way someone is trying to be polite to you is very rude, so I don’t actually pay attention to the specific words people use after I thank them, the point is my thank you was acknowledged and we move on. Are you in agreement with the idea that no problem is unacceptable, and if so would you be willing to explain it to me? And are you ok debating it a bit?

    This “never say no problem” initiative at my workplace is being pushed by a guy who has a very different idea of customer service than I do (not just as an employee, but as a customer). His model example of great customer service was when he worked at Moosejaw, a store I have only ever spent five minutes in because the one and only time I went in there the salesclerk tried to high five me then followed me around the store trying to befriend me. I find a lot of “ideal customer service” to be claustrophobic and exhausting, and as a customer I’d rather deal with a normal human being than an uber chipper sales robot. Actually, 99% of the time I’m wearing headphones and would rather not deal with anyone. At work I turn on the extrovert charm and I’m very chatty with customers, but I try really hard to respect their boundaries and if they don’t seem interested in me I leave them be. I’m wondering how many of you actually care how someone responds to your thanks in a business, or actually enjoy the “Hey my name’s Chad, let’s be buds” type customer service approach.

    1. Snark*

      In general, I think semantic debates are pointless and I share your distaste for being best friends with Chad when all I want is for Chad to get me a size medium or bring the appetizers, but….”no problem” seems to have the effect, for a lot of people, of feeling like a negation or deflection of gratitude. It doesn’t honor the thank you, it deflates it.

      My personal preference would be a simple “My pleasure” or “you’re welcome.”

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        “My pleasure” is my own personal pet peeve, but likely because I deal with so many hospitality personnel and I want to ask them if it was really their pleasure to accommodate a completely insane request I just made. I prefer “you’re welcome,” or in certain cases a cheerful, “of course!” or “sure thing!”

        1. Snark*

          Yeah, that strikes me as entirely particular to you, honestly. It’s generally received as a polite response to a thanks for a job done well and thoughtfully.

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            Oh for sure! It’s definitely my own weird quirk. I plan a lot of events in hotel spaces, so after the 100th “my pleasure” in one day, the phrase begins to take on a life of its own in my brain.

            1. Snark*

              Do you occasionally have a thing happen in your brain where a phrase loses all meaning after a while and kind of just becomes a set of random phonemes?

              2. Batshua*

                I love that you said “a set of random phonemes” instead of “becomes totally meaningless”. :D

      2. LadyL*

        Hmm interesting! I have a tendency towards “no problem,” and I also am the kind of person who finds lots compliments and/or gratitude to be awkward/overwhelming and will deflect them. I wonder if that’s related.

    2. paul*

      I’m in my 30s so I don’t know if that makes me old or young for purposes of this discussion, but the overly enthusiastic chipper smothering customer service style has *always* squicked me out pretty badly, and goodness knows it’s nothing I could ever have done when I worked retail. The faux-friendliness thing is just fingernails on a chalkboard to me (and I’ll say that degree of my internal reaction is probably an outlier).

      I find no problem to be 100% fine (and respond that way to some internal request for stuff in my current job). The biggest thing is that no one customer service model will be equally appreciated by every customer, and when people forget that they just cause extra problems.

      1. LadyL*

        I 100% agree with this. So many stores treat human beings as computer algorithms where if you just figure out the correct input the result will be perfect every time. Nah, people are complicated, they all want different things, and some will never be pleased no matter what.

        When I worked at a big box store they told me they used to judge customer metrics by how many customers you interacted with in a day, but they realized that customers wanted longer more meaningful interactions. This sounds fine, except what happened is they would time every interaction, and if it was too short a managed would come talk to you, and if you tried saying “She really just wanted to buy headphones and go, she didn’t want my help” they would tell you that you needed to deepen the interaction. I annoyed so many customers who just wanted to buy some junk and leave, and the bosses thought it was A+ service.

        Versus my current job, where as part of my training they gave me a flowchart talking about how to assess whether a customer wants to interact or not, and examples of how to respect that. I thought that was smart customer service.

    3. LCL*

      It is a generation thing. I despise the phrase ‘no problem’, I know I’m not the only one. My generation was taught that the correct response to Thank you is you’re welcome. However, I am able to set aside what I think about it and hear no problem as it is intended, as a common courtesy. The phrases are synonymous when used in the context of courtesy. Honestly, I never thought that deeply about you’re welcome meaning you are welcome to impose on me.

      Why is ‘no problem’ grating? First, because it wasn’t we are taught is the proper response, so it just sounds wrong. Second, the phrase itself comes across, even though that is not the intent, as sarcasm.

      1. paul*

        To me, in vocal communication, sarcasm comes across through tone and body language rather than word choice most of the time.

        It is *entirely* possible to drop a sarcastic “thank you.” I may have done so on occasion.

      2. Snark*

        I’d wager I’m a member of the generation you’re thinking of and I avoid it. Yes, its use is generational, largely, but I’ve gotten plenty of “no problem” or “sure thing” from people you claim were drilled to say “you’re welcome” without fail.

    4. Observer*

      People actually do care how you respond to their thanks, so that does matter. Maybe they shouldn’t but a lot of people do. And it’s not necessarily not pickiness. But, if a response comes with significant connotations, then that’s a problem for people.

      Given that a lot of people have a problem with “no problem” and it’s extremely rare for people to have an issue with “you’re welcome”, it just makes sense for customer service people to stick to “you’re welcome”, regardless of the rest of this stuff.

      I do find it interesting that you see the negativity attributed to “no problem” as nit picky, where you’re attribution of openness to being imposed on to “you’re welcome” as not. That attribution is also one that I think is really rare – in fact it’s the first time I’d heard this unlike the complaints about “no problem.”

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, this is where I land. I’m not crazy about “no problem,” and I’m going to presume this is a company that wants my business anyway. It’s no less robotic to say “no problem” than “you’re welcome,” so I don’t see this is being more like a normal human being and less like a robot.

        So I’m afraid it all sounds pretty reasonable to me, LadyL. That doesn’t mean it has to be the workplace for you, but I don’t think what he’s doing is necessarily wrong.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          My stepbrother used to live in Wales, and when we both lived at home, occasionally he would thank me for something by saying “ta”, and for some reason, it set my teeth on edge–you couldn’t just say “thanks” or even “cheers”? Using your single syllable to thank me with an actual word is too hard? I tried not to let it get to me, because he was expressing his thanks, but…I will just always hate “ta”.

          1. fposte*

            I never minded “Ta,” but I did think it was funny when it got expanded to “Ta very much.”

          2. Elizabeth West*

            I don’t mind “ta,” but “cheers” took some getting used to. At first, I always wanted to start singing the theme song to the TV program when I heard it.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            TY grated on me. I did 9000 things and it took me hours. You don’t have time to write out thank you? It’s six more letters, that is all it is. I should have written YW.

      2. LadyL*

        It’s more that I’m in the habit of saying “no problem!” (and other things) and changing something I say automatically without thought is difficult, especially when I don’t agree (and I honestly assumed something that most of our customers, mostly young people, don’t notice). It’s also one thing to request employees work on using a specific phrase, and another to suddenly announce that a phrase is “incredibly rude” and “unacceptable” and employees are never to use it again. That rubbed me the wrong way.

        It’s also relevant that I don’t work at a store or corporation, I work at a hands on museum where we’re encouraged to express our individuality and be our authentic selves with customers. I would probably understand the demand more if I was still working at the big box store.

        1. fposte*

          I think you’re painting yourself into a corner with that “authentic self” thing–all you’re talking about is a different habit. Neither of these habits is particularly authentic or inauthentic; it’s just a question of what you’re used to vs. what would be a new thing to learn. That’s not something you want to map onto something as moral as “authentic.”

          1. LadyL*

            True. The authentic self thing is part of a larger issue I have with the place, which maybe is the root here and my real problem. When I first started working there it was still pretty small and things were very lax. The whole “everyone here is fun and quirky, not like those other jobs!” thing was a huge part of the place’s identity. It’s a hands on museum, and we were encouraged to play with exhibits during work, do weird science experiments with museum supplies for no specific purpose, try making things in the workshop, have funky personal style (loose dress code, colorful hair, piercings, tattoos all allowed), etc. We were also given a lot of autonomy in how we handled things on the floor, and what we said to customers. It was the first place I worked where I felt respected and capable, and honestly all the play time and experiments made me much more confident in telling customers about our exhibits and science in general. In the years I’ve worked there they’ve gotten bigger, and that means they’ve had to start defining things and refining things. How we spend work time is much more closely monitored, play and experiments have mostly stopped which I think is a bad thing. Dress code got much stricter, I had to go out and buy a fair amount of new clothes which was frustrating. They’re now working on regulating customer interactions. I guess I see this as a symptom overall of us becoming more “corporate” for lack of a better word. Many other staff members have said they agree, working used to be a lot more fun.

            I sometimes feel frustrated because they still like the “fun and quirky” brand, when they post staff pictures with job openings there they still use old goofy ones from us screwing around. Actually as I’m typing this I’ve realized that the issue is that I felt like it was a great culture fit for me, and then the culture there changed and I’m no longer sure I fit as well there anymore. So woof.

            1. fposte*

              You’ve preempted me with your last paragraph there–I was getting ready to say that to you! I know it’s really frustrating when a job you loved changes into one you don’t; it’s hard to go through that process where you hope that isn’t quite what is happening. Sorry it sounds like it’s happening to you, but it also sounds like you were awesome at the job and would be able to find another one.

    5. KR*

      At least as far as customer service, I felt wierd saying “You’re welcome” when customers thanked me because I felt like I was assuming a priveledge by awknolaging that they had something to thank me for – I’m just doing my duty to the customer, no need to thank me. By saying “no problem” I felt like I was saying, “this really is no inconvenience to me and you should expect it and not feel like you need to thank me”

      1. LadyL*

        Yeah! That’s how I feel, as a customer I feel a lot of anxiety about making the worker’s life difficult, so I prefer the reassurance that I’m not a problem. My understanding is that this is what the generational divide is about, that in general older folks want the acknowledgment of their patronage of your service (huge generalities here, I know lots of people who break this mold of course). I see me and a clerk as equal, I’m doing them a solid by paying them, their doing me a solid by supplying me with a service, we both are just trying to have a good day and be nice to each other.

      2. bunanza*

        This is how I feel about it too. If I’m just doing a basic part of my job that you expect from every interaction with me, then I respond with “no problem.” If I do something more complicated or time-consuming, I respond with “you’re welcome,” because that seems like a more meaningful exchange for both of us.

        But I’m probably weird because about half the time, I’ll also respond to “thank you” with a chipper “thank *you*” and I’m sure it grates on people.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Please. Please do not discourage the public from saying thank you. More of them could do it more often.

        I get the idea about assuming privilege. But as the years go by it becomes more and more apparent that many people need to learn and be familiar with the words, “thank you”. Reframe, we are all equals and we need to say please and thank you to each other.

        My aunt would never thank a waitress. It was embarrassing. I made sure I thanked the waitress. Then it became her turn to be embarrassed by me. Yes, the waitress was doing her job. No, I won’t keel over and die from saying thank you. Jeepers.
        I should say, I loved my aunt very much. This did not fit with everything else I saw with my aunt. I realized that it was because she had a rough life where not many people thanked her. She just assumed that saying thank you to a waitress was unusual.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I really dislike “no problem,” because to me it implies that you only did this thing for me because it didn’t cause you any problems. And if you didn’t *want* to answer my question or refill my tea or process my payment, you wouldn’t have done it. It makes me want to respond “I’m glad it wasn’t a problem for you to take my order, since it’s your freaking job.” (“No problem” is fine when I ask for something outside the norm that actually might have caused a problem.)

      However, I realize this is because I’m old.

      1. LadyL*

        See I have the opposite feeling. I don’t want to be a difficult customer, I want to be easy for you to handle. Being reassured that my request wasn’t annoying feels more reassuring to me than “you’re welcome to be difficult, that’s my job”. But I hear that feeling is where the generational divide is, supposedly millenials are more inclined to view customer service interactions as the same as any other social interaction where both parties are on equal footing, whereas my understanding is that older generations prefer acknowledgement that you are serving them. Obviously huge generalities with a big grain of salt, my own parents (in their sixties) don’t care about “no problem” and I know plenty of young folks who have an imperious attitude about service workers, but the big concepts behind this cultural divide interest me.

        1. fposte*

          Though once somebody has to be paid to put up with the other it’s not an equal footing; it’s more about the comfortable fiction of superiority being replaced by the comfortable fiction of equality.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          You have completely misinterpreted what I said. I’m not asking to be reassured that it was okay to be difficult. I try very damn hard NOT to be difficult. I don’t want acknowledgement that someone is “serving” me. I do not have the “imperious attitude about service workers” that you’re implying. But I also don’t want a flippant “no problem,” which suggests you’re doing me a favor and not conducting a business transaction.

          1. LadyL*

            No, I didn’t intend to imply that you were being imperious, I’m sorry! I was trying to speak to big generalities. I don’t believe that you said anything about being difficult, I was trying to puzzle through the cultural divide on this and was not being clear, my apologies.

        3. LCL*

          Ah, maybe here is the generational difference. I (old) believe this isn’t a social interaction, it is a business transaction. I believe the person making my latte is a fellow human being, but that isn’t the point of our interaction. IRL I always try to strike up a conversation with and acknowledge service people if they are having it. Some like it, some hate it, and I respect both approaches.

    7. Dankar*

      Things like this make me feel much better about the fact that I work with young millennials and below, because I use “no problem” like it’s going out of style. Sometimes I even drop “not a problem,” if I’m feeling formal. Haha

      I like it because it absolutely connotes a much more informal exchange, which I find tends to put students at ease (one semantic technique amongst many others, of course!), and because many of the students really do feel like they’re imposing when they send an email with 6 questions that NEED to be answered by the next morning. They get a bit panicky as the semester comes to a close.

      For parents, on the rare occasion I speak directly to them, I tend to go with “You’re very welcome,” or “Not at all, it’s my pleasure.” It feels fake to me, but keeping parents happy when I usually can’t disclose the information they’re asking for is worth the artificiality.

      In general, low-stakes interactions like retail, though, I think you’re a total ass if you can’t handle “no problem.” There are more important things in life…

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      Oh my god, who has time to worry about it. It’s phatic speech. The words don’t matter!

      1. LadyL*

        YES! Phatic speech! I had this conversation with a coworker once, and we found a blog post by a linguist about the “no problem” trend (linguist’s point was essentially there is no real difference, language is ever evolving as are social customs, nothing is real so don’t worry about it). The linguist talked about phatic speech, but I couldn’t remember the word for it. I call it “bleep boop noise conversations,” as in, “bleep boop greeting noises,” “bleep boop acknowledgement noises,” “bleep boop thanking noises,” etc. Obviously phatic speech is a …*slightly* more elegant way of describing that, haha.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I like your term for it better! That’s cute.

          There was a discussion about this on here recently – someone asked about having to say “how are you” “fine thanks” etc to colleagues and people were saying it’s basically like saying “I acknowledge you fellow human.”

          I don’t care if someone says you’re welcome or no problem or whatever because what everyone really means is:
          “I am pleased you did this thing.”
          “Yes, I did the thing.”

        2. Zathras*

          I learned a new thing!

          I have to admit, when I was working retail sometimes I would be tired and phatic speech that did not match the situation would come out of my mouth.

      2. Natalie*

        This is where I come down on it. The words in the phrase don’t need to be taken literally, and if someone is going to do that and be bothered by the literal meaning, it kind of sounds like a them problem and not a me problem.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Yep. I’m astounded by how much thought and analysis some people are putting into this. It’s really not something to overanalyse.

          I mean, I say ‘no problem’ to people because I want to be nice. That’s it.

          1. Future Analyst*

            I am truly surprised about how many people have strong feelings about the phrase “no problem.” When they are describing it, it makes sense, but it literally never occurred to me that anyone might register how I acknowledge their thanks. The things we learn on here…

            1. Ramona Flowers*

              It has stunned me. I didn’t know anyone analysed it to that degree.

              But then AAM has also taught me that over in America some supermarket customers dislike seeing the checkout staff sitting down, so I guess all bets are off.

              1. LadyL*

                Oooh ok! So now we’re really cooking with gas, because not only is this a generational thing, I know that customer service in general is very cultural, and that many (probably most) places in the world consider American customer service to be intense or even overwhelming and disturbing (the flip side being American tourists complaining that all the staff in other places were super rude).

                I’m a born and bred midwestern American, as is my partner, but we both find the intense customer service you find here to be absurd and too much. There seems to be this pervasive mentality that what customers really want is for you to be a robot programmed to find deep pleasure in service. I find that off putting as a customer, and very difficult to perform as an employee.

                Also the expectations placed on staff by management are crazy. My local grocery store started having this little survey pop up on the credit card machine screen after every purchase that said, “Were you highly satisfied by your experience?” with an option of 1-5 stars. Now for me, grocery shopping is never going to be “highly satisfying” in any way, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the staff or store. I was just going to hit 3 stars on principle, but then my partner told me that when he worked at a big name electronic store that had a similar automatic survey, anyone who got less than the full 5 stars got a serious talking to from the manager about dissatisfied customers. Literally, a 4 star review was not good enough. So from a store standpoint, I as a customer have to be absolutely thrilled by my experience there or some poor cashier is going to get chewed out? I’m exhausted just thinking about it. I know I’ve probably put way too much thought into this dumb survey, but I kind of think it’s a great example of a larger cultural issue. I think America is (in general) obsessed with every moment and interaction being THE GREATEST and if it’s not THE GREATEST it’s a total and complete failure. I relate this to a national obsession with positive thinking (Bright Sided by Barbara Ehrenreich is a fantastic book about the “dangers” of an obsession with positivity). I get the feeling that in other cultures interactions/experiences being neutral or just adequate is far more accepted. I take your comment about sitting cashiers as some proof of my theory about American customer service, because everywhere I’ve worked as front line staff I’ve never been allowed to sit (except occasionally while rolling silverware as a waitress) and I’ve never even thought to question the insistence on standing. So, like, workers get to rest in stores where you live?

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  Bright-Sided is an excellent book.

                  I agree with this–I hate that kind of rating system too, for similar reasons. It’s very rare that I’d be thrilled doing anything as mundane as grocery shopping.

                2. Ramona Flowers*

                  Yes they do – if you work on a supermarket checkout you’ll be sitting. Unless it’s the tobacco counter.

                  Interesting what you say about American tourists finding staff rude in other places. American tourists are often thought of as rude over here because they aren’t used to the type of politeness that’s expected towards staff – often they don’t say please and thank you (and it is only Americans) and people find that rude.

                4. LadyL*

                  @Ramona Flowers not offended at all! I think that’s because in America politeness is only policed one way. Service workers have no power in a customer interaction, if a customer is rude they must grin and bear it, whereas “complaining to the manager” about an employee is so common it’s a trope. Good places will protect the employee if the customer is over the line (threatening, harassing, etc), but not all places are good places. Generally if a customer is cruel to me I’m expected to cheerily ask him if he needs anything else and that’s it. I know too many Americans who think of service workers as basically furniture or a machine, and don’t give politeness a second thought. Many also believe that by paying you for a service they are doing you an immense favor (they don’t consider that you giving them service is some they *need*) so some expect a certain amount of cowtowing and groveling from workers. I mean, obviously not everyone of course, but we’re speaking to large generalities there. So basically, stereotype is: American tourists find staff in Europe rude because they don’t perform subservience enough, European staff find American tourists rude because they don’t treat them as fellow humans.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                RF, this is the tip of the iceberg. Retail has a whole bunch of things you cannot say.

                Don’t say, “have a good one” because clearly you are talking about sex.

                One place if you yawned that was an insult to anyone in your vicinity. Sneezing was unacceptable also. And you never sit down, never, even if you are working on something on the bottom shelf.

                It’s insane. If the customer leaves a kid or pet in a hot car, noooo, don’t say anything about it. Don’t upset the customer.

            2. Observer*

              The real problem is that for most people they don’t realize WHY it grates on them so much. Which is also why just dismissing it with “then THEY are the problem” doesn’t work very well, especially in a customer service type of situation.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Language changes and people don’t always catch the change.

                I told my father I wanted to go hang out with other kids. It was WEEKS of arguing and I had NO idea why. Well my father assigned a random definition to the term “hang out”. He demonstrated it to me: it was slouched spine, curved shoulders and an angry look on the face.

                I said “Dad, if you do not know the meaning of a term you need to ASK. Making up random definitions from thin air is not serving you well. You could have avoided weeks of arguing if you had tried.”
                grrrr.

    9. The OG Anonsie*

      This whole debate is super weird to me because “you’re welcome” and “no problem” communicate literally the exact same thing via almost identical, parallel pathways. “You have the ability to make additional requests of me” and “there are no barriers to you making additional requests of me” are the same sentiment. They both, very directly, state that the customer should feel free to ask for and expect the assistance provided because it is the employee’s responsibility to provide it. Contextually, they also both address that you appreciate the thanks but that they are not necessary because you were happy to provide the help that you did and do not need compensation from the individual in question.

      I don’t find them to be appreciably different unless a different connotative meaning is read into “no problem” that alters it from the way it is intended and interpreted by (what I think is) a majority of people.

    10. Chaordic One*

      The “no problem” thing seems to be generational and I would avoid saying it to older people. I think you’re reading way too much into “You’re welcome” when you start associating it with “impose upon me”. At least you didn’t go on a rant about the endless “thank yous.” “Thank you for waiting on me.” “Thank you coming to our store.” “No, thank you.”

      The customer service survey things suck. It’s even worse when you get dinged by a secret shopper because you didn’t upsell them.

    11. ..Kat..*

      I go with
      – you’re welcome
      – I’m glad I was able to assist you
      – my pleasure.

      I don’t want to ‘diminish’ their thanks. Just acknowledge their thanks.

    12. RAM*

      I really, really prefer “no problem” over “you’re welcome.” No problem sounds more of a positive “you have nothing to thank me for, I was happy to do it” and the latter sounds more smug “yeah, I did something you should thank me for.” Is that just me?

    13. Not So NewReader*

      When you work retail they own you. My best advice is not to dwell on this stuff. Just give management what they ask for and move on. And that is because we must preserve our sanity above all else.

      Retail sucks. They have a high turn over in help and they don’t mind that they are making their jobs 100 times harder because of this turn over.

      For all their silly rules, I think that over all my shopping experiences get worse with each decade. Management is way to interested in superficial things and has zero interest in assisting the customer with products in a meaningful manner.

  83. How to get people to listen to you? (Interview Question)*

    Hi. I had an interview yesterday. I don’t think I was an especially stong candidate (they wanted someone to work with contractors to manage an 18-month-long outdoor teapot project, and my experience has been on indoor teapot projects that max out at about 11 months).

    PLUS they (the panel) asked me about 10 different ways what to do if people just didn’t listen to me? This is for a REGULATORY related position – I am trying to help people/companies save money AND LIVES. I replied with the usual – tell employees about my certifications, train them, appeal to them personally, build up raport, show the employees the regulations, do random audits like pop quizzes to make sure the employees are related, have as close to zero tolerance for infractions, act like the enemy (I’m ok with that). But I wouldn’t be on the organizational chart, or have any actual authority, and I’d be underpaid for the industry.

    So on one hand I feel like I dodged a bullet. But what was I supposed to say – how am I supposed to get people to listen to me, and convey that in a panel interview?

    With the benefit of hindsight, I think I should’ve said… “I’d have my Maester take the largest, most brutal man I know, bring him back from the edge of death to be a robotic zombie who by his sheer size combined with hiding his face will be the enforcer of regulations.” Or possibly, “would you disobey me AND MY THREE DRAGONS?!”

    What’s the right answer to… “how will you walk in to a project or job and make people listen to you?” And then they ask that 10 different ways, implying that no one will listen, ever?

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, this is, like, Matrix bullet time. “You need to ride herd on people for a year and a half to make them comply with regulations, but you get absolutely no actual management authority or autonomy to enforce any of that, and they will absolutely not listen to you unless you can fire them,” is just a long and exhausting way to say, “We want you to hate your life for cheap.”

      Personally, I’d go with the three dragons, enjoy a round of hearty laughter, and then get up, singing “Nope, nope, nopity-nope, nope nope nope nopity-nope” on your way out the door.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Well, all other issues aside… My answer to your question is I’d listen to them first.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If upper management does not tell them they have to listen to me then no one is going to listen. Pretty simple stuff.

  84. Jackfruit Beret*

    I was contemplating sending an email to Allison, but it’s not very specific. I’ve been in my career for 10 years and recently received my Masters degree in a separate field. I’m both excited for the possibilities and extremely nervous as it means I essentially will start from scratch. Although, I have some basic experience in this new field, I would enter the job force on the lowest rung. Even though I’ve accepted this as fact, the notion that after 10 years of working I will be a newbie has me very nervous. When I first started working after college, my transition was personally difficult (though, it didn’t impact me professionally). It took me a long time to acclimate to the work environment, the new skills, tasks and responsibilities. I was extremely anxious throughout. I want to avoid that when I start my transition and was hoping some folks on here would have some advice. TIA.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      You’re not starting from scratch! You have transferable skills. You are not new to the workplace. I switched field and thought I was starting at the bottom again but actually you will have gotten a lot out of your time working so far.

  85. Anon for this*

    I’ve been contacted by a recruiter for a competitor. I was open to talking to them to see what my options are, but I really like my current company. After talking and learning the identity of the competitor, they are scheduling a meeting. I looked at the company’s website, and I just can’t imagine myself moving to their location (in my metro area, but a very different area), or commuting there. Is this a legitimate reason to cancel? I don’t want to waste their time, but don’t know whether to be honest about it. Thanks!

    1. Becca*

      If you don’t want to go into specifics, you don’t have to. You could say something like, “Thank you so much for the opportunity to meet with you. After some thought, I realized that my current company is the right place for me right now, so I’d like to cancel our upcoming meeting. Again, thanks for your consideration, etc etc etc.”

      But if there’s anything that might tempt you, such as working from home to eliminate the commute/relocation, it might be worth keeping the meeting to discuss options. But do what feels right for you! Good luck.

  86. Shellesbelles*

    How do you deal with an angry email/diatribe from a coworker? I’ve been given responsibilities that she feels like should be hers. She didn’t like how our meeting went with management (where this was formalized), so she sent me a 3 page diatribe through our work email, ccing all management. It was scathing, personal, and incredibly upsetting. I’m supposed to now be working closely with this woman, managing her on some tasks, and I’m not sure how to deal with this. I talked to management about it and they told me that I just have to get over it if I want to be in a leadership position. I don’t really agree. This email was unhinged and attacked me on a personal level. I don’t think this sort of thing should be allowed and I think she should be disciplined. Any advice on how to handle this? She’s been on vacation, so I haven’t had to deal with her, but she’ll be back next week.

    1. Snark*

      This person sounds bonkers, but if you’re in a management position and outrank her, I think it’s time to get your bossy pants on and quash this the way any manager would quash insubordination and disrespect.

      1. Snark*

        Sample script: “I realize that you may have some frustrations with the decisions that were made to give me these responsibilities, but that ship has sailed and the decision has been made. I look forward to working with you in a collegial and civil fashion moving forward.”

        And then do so. Be polite, civil, and collegial, and do your job as if what she wrote was entirely in the past. She desperately wants you to engage and defend yourself, and just no. Her frustrations are hers to deal with on her own, and you can tell her that too. There’s a job to do.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Ooh no, this is too provocative.

          Hi Thingummy,

          I’m not able to discuss X and Y now that Z decision has been made. If you have any queries about A, B or C, we can discuss them in D meeting.

      2. Shellesbelles*

        Problem is, she outranks me on some things and I outrank her on other things. We’re basically expected to “share,” but with me as the manager of some areas and her as the manager of others. So, she’s going to lash out and be punitive when managing her things over me, while I have to just deal with her lashing out and trying to subvert the stuff that I manage. For what it’s worth, she has a history of trying to do her own version of my projects and then sneaking them around me to management. She often sends these emails on weekends, when I’m not on email and can’t engage.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This has moved up to a management problem. She exists because management allows it.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      If you have already talked to management then I don’t think you have many options. Document any future incidents and if she continues to act this way, go to HR or bring it back to management. At this point though it seems like management has made it clear that they want you to let this go, so unless she does something else, you will look bad if you keep trying to get her disciplined. It isn’t fair, but the quest for fairness isn’t worth the risk to your career.

    3. Jackfruit Beret*

      Ouch. As someone who was recently passed over by another colleague, I sympathize with your colleagues desire to lash out. But, based on your note, their response was completely inappropriate and directed at the wrong person. (You didn’t make this decision). That said, if I was your colleague, I wouldn’t engage in this personal attack. Shut that ** down. Your colleague is looking to create drama to make herself feel better. Don’t give them that opportunity. Demonstrate your professionalism and intelligence (both standard and emotional). Acknowledge that you understand your coworker is not pleased with the reorganization, but it is the responsibility of both of you to work together in a civil environment. Then proceed with whatever work you have to do together. (And make sure you CYA, just in case they’re incapable of being a professional person)

    4. Observer*

      For work purposes, skip the hurt feelings. Instead focus on managing. Every time she derails, argues excessively (make sure you get a reality check on that, if needed as it’s going to be very hard to be objective here), does things incorrectly (after having been told the correct way or stuff that she is supposed to know) or refuses to do whatever it is, shut it down immediately and document your head off.

      Loop in management only when you need them to back up on enforcing whatever needs to be enforced.

      If (or more likely when) she continues to behave in a problematic manner, you raise this as a performance issue. And that’s where your documentation comes in. Yes, leaders need to have a thick skin (although I think your management is taking that too far.) But leaders also need to be able to impose consequences for negative behavior.

      I actually do agree that this kind of behavior is unacceptable and she should have been disciplined for it, but since they didn’t you need to find a way to go forward. For your sanity, it might be worth looking at her as a specimen rather than a person whose opinion you should give any weight to.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      This is a hot steaming turd. And you are looking to find a way to pick it up by the clean end. Management has seen this, it’s on them to act. Just walk away from the turd, it’s not on you to clean it up.

    6. Willow Sunstar*

      She’s incredibly naive to have sent that in an email that could be forwarded to your boss or hr.

  87. Anon16*

    Hi all! I have a phone screen coming up with a company I’m somewhat interested in. It’s in the same field I’m currently working in but it’s for a corporation, whereas I’m currently employed at a non-profit. I have a question about salary.

    This is the first time I’ve done a phone interview without having the salary included in the job description, so I’m curious about how to handle the salary question! I currently have a job in the same field and would only leave it if I were to get an increase from my current yearly salary. To be frank, I’m only interested in this position for the potential increase in salary. This isn’t what I want to pursue as a career and the commute is a *little* far, but I’m looking to leave my organization and prefer to increase my salary.

    How do I handle this? Can I say, “I probably wouldn’t leave my current position for anything less than $XX,XXX.”? Should I list an ideal range and mention that it’s open to negotiation depending on benefits? I’ve been told by people outside AAM that you should NEVER list a figure before the employer does, but I’m pretty uncomfortable on how I would do this if they ask what my salary expectations are. What’s a smoother, less awkward way to turn the question on the employer and ask if they had a range in mind without sounding like I’m totally ignoring them? Any thoughts??

    1. Anon16*

      This post really makes it sound like I’m only focused on salary, and truthfully, there’s other positions I’ve applied to where the work sounds a little more interesting to me (other than this one), but I’m interested to leave my employer and probably wouldn’t do so for an equivalent salary or less.

      Thanks for all your help!

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Well, it’s not wrong to care — a lot — about how much you’ll be paid!

        If you’re not that into the job, I’d go ahead and redirect the question at them until they tell you a number — and if they won’t, you can end the conversation there. “I’m pretty happy where I am, so I’d like to know what the salary range is for the position to figure out whether it makes sense to talk more.” “I’d rather not lowball myself, and I’m sure you guys have a range in mind already, so it would be really helpful if you could share what that is.”

        1. Anon16*

          That makes sense. This is a little ballsier than what I would typically do! It sounds like most think it’s better to hold off on naming a figure, if possible?

          1. AdAgencyChick*

            I think the employer should always say a number first, on principle. They know how much they have budgeted for the job; they probably have access to a lot more salary data for the market than the employee does.

            I have also never met an employer that didn’t try to make me name a number first. I know they’re doing it in the hopes I’ll name a lower number than they would have as a first point of negotiation.

            Whether you can be ballsy depends on how badly you want the job. Since your original post indicates that you wouldn’t move without a big bump, I think you can go ahead and push them to name a number — knowing that if they won’t budge on making you name one first, you can walk away (or name a big number and see what they say).

    2. Lily Rowan*

      If you’re going from nonprofit to for-profit, the odds are good that the salary will be higher, but definitely see if you can get them to go first. I think it’s fair to say, “Actually, since all of my experience is nonprofit, I’m not as familiar with ranges on your side of things. Can you tell me what you’re considering?” Something like that. Otherwise, “I wouldn’t leave my current position for less than X” is good, as long as X is higher than what you’re making now.

      1. Anon16*

        X is definitely higher than my current, but really not much higher (about 2.5k). I have a feeling of a range that makes sense based on the very little information I have. Would it sound naive to admit I’m not sure what the normal range is for corporations, i.e. that I didn’t do my research? I asked my former manager who used to work there and he told me his starting salary was pretty low (lower than my current) when he started about 9 or so years ago, but the company has grown substantially since then and his salary doesn’t reflect what I’ve been finding online, so it wasn’t much help.

        I also found in a AAM salary thread someone with the same niche position as me in the same state who said their salary was within the range I was thinking, so my instinct doesn’t seem off-base.

        Thanks for your help!

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I’d guess that using Glassdoor or whatever is going to show you a huge range of possibilities, right? But it does sound like you have a good sense and are on the right track! Good luck.

  88. Disappointed Wife*

    Sorry in advance for how long this is. I’m writing in for my husband. He’s having difficulty at his job and I don’t know how to help him. We’re pretty sure he’s on track to be let go. He has a master’s in library science and has been looking for a full-time position. Since they’re hard to come by, he’s been working circulation. About 4 months ago, he started at a new library – one of the branches of the city library. He and his new manager do NOT get along, though they started at this library about the same time. When a person starts at this library, they’re automatically on probation for 6 months.

    His one month review went fine, but he’d still been shadowing. At 2 months, they basically told him he wasn’t doing much right and needed to make some major improvements. When I ask him what, he names a couple small things (like shelving the fullest carts first), but mostly that he needs to ask more questions. At his 3 month review, they said he had improved somewhat, but still had a lot to work on. Now, they just did his 4 month review today and said he’s not showing enough improvement in the 2 things they talked about at the 3 month review and they’re talking to HR. I asked him what he needs to improve and again he said asking more questions and there was a discrepancy about whether he was shelving the fullest carts.

    I don’t know how to help him. It seems like he must not be getting enough direction because he said he thought he was improving. I think it’s also a case of “he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know,” but how do you help someone with that? Any advice on talking to his manager that doesn’t seem to want to help him improve? (After the first month or so, she basically stopped talking to him except when needed. If he tries to say hi or make chit chat, she is short with her answers. She’s not like that with others in the library, though.) How can he ask for what he needs when he doesn’t know what he needs? He already tried asking what he could do to improve and they said “Keep trying.”

    I know my husband has his faults, but I also know he can do this job and I don’t want to see him let go.

    1. Snark*

      Honestly, if the cart thing has come up twice, they may be having concerns about whether he follows up on feedback and incorporates it into his workflow. And, reading between the lines, it sounds very much like he does his own thing his way until corrected, rather than asking for guidance and self-starting. I don’t necessarily agree with those concerns, but perhaps they were expecting someone with a Masters’ to be more self-directed and independent, and they’re frustrated at having to teach basic procedure.

      1. BE*

        I just feel disappointed. In the beginning I made a lot of mistakes, but I have been working to correct them. At least I have a second job so I won’t be totally out of work.

    2. Jackfruit Beret*

      Is it possible that your husband is focusing more on the examples then the issues they represent? I have a tendency to focus on the specifics rather than the broader picture, which has certainly gotten me in trouble in the past.

  89. Hey nonny nonny*

    Have any of you ever had to vote someone off a board of directors? Did you have to raise the subject? How did they react?

    I’m facing the possibility of having to open up public discussion (among the board, that is) about no longer being able to work with one of the other directors due to horrible work ethic and incredibly unprofessional behavior with clients. It’s stressing me out. Any tips on keeping cool when bringing all this up if things aren’t resolved before our next meeting?

    1. Stella's Mom*

      A few questions for you:
      1. Do you have documentation of all of the Board Member’s behaviours? Dates, times, emails, other folks involved to agree that it occurred, etc?
      2. Does your org have an Ethics Guidelines Set or policy on behaviours and what is and is not OK that is clear? That the Board members have all signed onto when they got nominated for the Board?
      3. Are there clients that you can engage as help that the Board member was rude to (etc)?
      4. Send out an agenda two weeks ahead of time if possible… to all the board to ensure they know this is going to be discussed. (If it is an open and transparent org – not sure of culture?)
      5. Document it all, make clear points, and set up what is to happen in the meeting – is the Board member escorted out? What access do they have to give back or have shut off? If this happens… think thru all these details – and how to present it to the outside world, website article, updates to staff, clients etc. It seems that it will happen and they will go, but you need to handle all the details like this to be prepared. Best of luck.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Look at the by-laws there should be a procedure outlined for removing board members.
      Also examine the by-laws for wording that states board members responsibilities in the areas he has failed.

      I would type of one letter to the president the board with all my talking points.
      I’d ask the president to put it on the agenda and in the packet of meeting materials.

      I have seen board members walk out on something like this so make sure you know where you are at. Is this a hill to die on?
      Have it lined up what you will say or do if the board listens attentively and then says, “We will think about it.” OR worse, “We don’t see a problem.”

  90. Always science-ing*

    TL:DR: Any former scientists/researchers/research administrators on here who have transitioned to a non-science administrative role? Did you regret it? What should I be considering to determine if it will be a good fit for me without any science/research aspect?

    I’m currently in a research administration role at a large academic institution but I’m considering a lateral move to a fully administrative role that has no science/research component. The move would come with a pay increase, but I could possibly get that increase in my current role (salary currently under review). However, the new role has a lot more potential for growth/promotion in the future. I know the new manager already and we’ve spoken about the new role and I think it would provide some new opportunities for growth and skill development that I just can’t get in my current role…but I’ve always been in science related roles and I’m really not sure how I feel about the idea of a job with no science component. I’m afraid I’ll regret it and end up being miserable. My who identity has always been wrapped up in science so this would be a huge change for me. I’d love to hear from others who have been through a similar situation. Any guidance? How did it work out for you?
    I’ve commented here before sporadically (but am more of a long time lurker!) but I’m trying out a new handle as I can never seem to settle on a good or unique one!

    1. Snark*

      I’ve watched plenty of folks do this, and they usually ended up miserable, particularly if research and science was a major part of their professional identity and interest. Growth and skill development are only good things if you’re growing and developing in professionally fulfilling and interesting ways.

      Do you actually enjoy the administrative aspects of your current job, in and of themselves?

    2. Typhon Worker Bee*

      I’m in a similar role. I saw a position a few years ago that would have been a big step up in responsibilities and salary, and for which I met all the requirements, but it was at the local art school. I thought about it for a couple of days, but ultimately just couldn’t imagine myself not working in science. I decided not to apply, and I haven’t regretted that decision.

      One thing to consider is that, depending on your field and on how much you need to know about the actual science to do your job, it might not be easy to go back once you’ve left. Science moves so quickly. If you do decide to go for the non-science job, have a plan in place to be able to demonstrate to a future employer how you’ve managed to stay in touch with the cutting edge of your field. Keep reading the major journals, at a minimum, and ideally go to a conference or two.

      1. Snark*

        This is a fantastic point. I’ve also seen a lot of people go administrative and then kind of sink like a stone once they’re not in touch with their field anymore.

    3. Nonprofit manager*

      I feel I am in a similar situation. My degrees are in social science and I worked in consulting/program/research roles for almost 20 years, applying social science theories and methods. I enjoyed the work and found it gratifying.

      Due to upheavals in my industry during the recession, my job and the entire industry was eliminated and I was unable to find anything related. I ended up at a non-profit organization in a low-level administrative role, supporting researchers but not having any part of the research. It was extremely frustrating because they were good at research but not project management and I felt my skills could be put to good use in a different role.

      I changed groups and moved up rapidly in administration and am about to become a director of my area. Truthfully, I am challenged and enjoy many aspects of my work. It’s as intellectually stimulating as what I did before. But I miss the program/research side of it. And some of the things my group needs to worry about – like copy machines, supplies, etc – I just don’t care about. Throughout my entire career, that was someone else’s problem. Now it’s mine, because I supervise the person who deals with that.

      I am in the process of adding program/research work to my duties, however. It has taken some time but I have shown what I can do and am taking on work that my predecessor never did, mainly because I have the skill set and interest. This works, however, because I am at a small organization and have become less fearful about asking for what I want, and then making the case for getting it.

      All this to say that you might miss some aspects of your current work, but might experience growth in other areas and may be able to combine things in a way you do not envision now.

      One more comment to add after reading the others: It’s true that if you leave science, you might have a hard time going back. When I lost my job during the recession, I thought about going back to research I had done a while ago, but it had been too long. So think about that carefully.

    4. sugarplum*

      I don’t have any guidance, but I have sympathy – I’m about to leave my postdoc for a purely operational role that requires an academic background, but is not ostensibly an academic position. I’m excited enough about the position – the people are great, I know several folks who have similar backgrounds to mine and have made the same leap and are really happy with it, I get to stay with this organization which I really enjoy – but I’m nervous. I never planned to leave research entirely, and I’m struggling with the fact that this makes me not a scientist anymore. I guess it depends on the field, and how PURELY administrative this fully-admin role will be for you, but what I did (or rather am continuing to do when I start getting plagued by guilt and self-doubt) is think about the aspects of my work that I like that will be duplicated in my new position, and the aspects of my work that I don’t like that I will be able to shed. Will you be able to continue to do the non-science parts of your work that you like? Will this enable you to get away from some of the peculiarities of research that maybe you don’t like as well? I will echo the concerns of others that it can be difficult-to-impossible to re-enter the research world once you leave. I have this concern as well. For me, since I was in an investigator role, I figure I have 1-2 years where I will still have papers coming out and would still be reasonably marketable if I want to change my mind. Not knowing what aspect of research administration you’re in, it’s harder to say, but going back to research administration (I’m thinking trials administrator, IRB, something like that? but maybe I’m wrong) will be much easier than if you were in a PI role.

      Like you I worry that this won’t be the right move… but I also worry that (for me) continuing on a traditional research path is going to be a lot of making it work rather than actually enjoying it. At least in my line of work, there’s one path, and you’re either on it or you’re not. In my new role, there will be so many more opportunities to grow, get promoted, and do new stuff than there are here, it just won’t be advancing my tiny little area of the research world. And I’m sure I’ll find things about the new job that I don’t like, but I also have to keep reminding myself that this is an opportunity to get away the things I already know I don’t like and don’t do well in my current role.

      1. Always science-ing*

        Even though I wasn’t in a PI role I feel like I can relate to a lot of this. I left my actual science job when I realized staying on the track to becoming a PI was going to be way more “making it work” than I wanted. Lately I have been starting to feel similarly about research administration, there is only so high you can go in the academic environment I am in…and the higher you go the more specialized/niche it often gets (e.g. only grant writing) which to me is super boring because I need variety.

        It’s also true that there are some aspects of my current role that I would be happy to be rid of! Actually I feel like those are starting to eclipse the fun parts of my job more and more as they are ever present – academic bureaucracy is slow and resistant to change so annoying processes/problems often end up being permanent fixtures (even though they are relatively easy to resolve – which to me is its own level of frustration, why not just fix them?!) .

    5. Always science-ing*

      Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. Sorry for the slow response it’s been a busy day over here! Good question Snark Re: Do I enjoy the non-sceince stuff,that’s what I’ve really been thinking about. My currently role is administrative as well, but with a research focus (running granting programs, writing grants, knowledge translation, advising trainees, teaching research skills workshops etc.) so even though I’m not doing the science I still feel connected to it and still get to use my science-y skills which I like. I’m a huge proponent of science literacy which fits well with my current role. However in response to sugarplum’s question I do also enjoy program development, process efficiency and relationship building which would all play a big part in the new role. I will also have opportunities to run much higher profile programs and projects which I know won’t happen in my current role – and these opportunities are what I see as more valuable in giving me the experience I would need to be competitive for a higher level role down the line. But similar to sugarplum it just seems weird to me to have a job that has nothing to do with science.

      I stopped doing actual science several years ago when I moved to my current role so no worries about staying current as Typhon Worker Bee and NonProfit Manager mentioned – that was my big concern last time I changed jobs! I do still keep up with a lot of the journals, etc. though, just for my own interest.

      Thanks for the support and input all of you, it’s been helpful in getting me to clarify my thoughts. No offer yet so no need for a decision yet, but I’m feeling less stressed about a possible decision!
      I did leave

  91. SadOne*

    I’m so sad. I’ve had two job interviews today and yesterday (or more exactly 2 meetings with companies, each consisting of 3-5 interviews and case studies).

    Yesterday I was sick. I was coughing and could hardly speak due to a sore throat. I managed to make it through the 5 rounds of interviews but the probability I will get the job is very low since I was feeling so bad. And no, I couldn’t reschedule – I flew to the company headquarters and it was clear it was to be now or never.

    Today I was feeling much better but I was turned down by the company I interviewed with. We got the decision directly after the interviews. I believed it had gone well, the questions weren’t difficult. I was said it was close but my answer had been to unstructured. What was meant here is that I has been described a a situation and had been asked how I would solve the problem. I answered by listing all the possible causes of the problem described and how they could be dealt with. Then I summarized what the possible problem could be. The interviewer told me he had expected me to conduct a conversation with him asking about those different factors and then give the final answer. It’s really a pity he didn’t say so. I knew how to solve the case study, so it wouldn’t have made me any difference whether I speculated about the causes and solutions, which I did, or asked the interviewer about whether these causes were correct, which he expected.

    I’ve been looking for a job like crazy for more than half a year now and can’t find anything. That’s so depressing. I hate my current job, hate every day spent working there and I’m so incredibly sad that I can’t quit yet.

    1. Emily S.*

      I’m really sorry to hear about your difficulties.

      It sounds like the one today was close, so you should be hopeful that you’re in a good position to find something else.

      Try to stay positive! At least the weekend is almost here.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think bullet dodged. You don’t need a job where mind reading is necessity.
      He made you feel badly so you would be busy with that and not notice he gave a crappy interview. He set you up to fail.
      I understand that you need a job, but you don’t need a job where you wonder if you ESP is working accurately today or will you be fired.

  92. Catalin -- Looking for Jesca*

    Jesca? Are you there? I’ve been really worried about you after your Completely Bonkers Co-worker story (Heathcliff).

  93. GarlicMicrowaver*

    I need serious help with Excel. My mind just doesn’t work that way (I’m a “creative” and “blue” per the True Colors test) but it needs to since a large part of my job is filtering through data to make decisions. Anyone know of any online “courses for dummies?” I can do the basics, but when it comes to sorting, filtering, pivot tables and formulas, I’m helpless. I’ve faced the fact that I need to carve out time to learn on my own.

    1. Observer*

      In addition to learning excel, make sure you have a solid grasp on the concepts of statistics and data analysis. You’ll find excel MUCH easier to grasp if you understand what you’re trying to get at.

      And, try think of numbers as a new language, with excel as a different sort of word processor.

      1. GarlicMicrowaver*

        Working on it. Problem is, our data comes from multiple sources and trying to consolidate it all is a nightmare. Google Analytics helps, though. I think I just need help with Excel as a program… As I’m more in-tune with PowerPoint and Word. :)

    2. Emily S.*

      Lynda.com has excellent courses on Excel. I’ve learned a lot from them.

      My public library offers free access online – check and see if yours does.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yep, second this and was going to say the same thing. My library also offers free access online.

    3. Alex*

      There are a lot of free resources online. Go to YouTube and search Excel Pivot Tables or whatever you need. There are also great resources like Lynda.com if you can get access to that or afford a subscription.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Some libraries are offering free tutoring with computers. You might check around your area.

  94. Observer*

    There is something I have been seeing a lot of, and it’s bothering me. I see a lot of “your employer / manager doesn’t have an obligation to be fair.” I totally disagree. I DO get that as an employee, I don’t have a legal right to that, most of the time. And, even more so, I get that what’s fair often looks different depending on where you are coming from, and definitely looks different in a workplace than in school, for instance. And I think it’s really, really healthy for people who are new to the work world to hear that. But that doesn’t mean that it’s ok to not be fair.

    So, a hiring manager has an obligation to hire the best fit for the job, and to do so without (too much) unnecessary expenditure of resources. But the hiring manager DOES have a moral obligation to do so fairly – by looking at the things that really matter and ignoring the things that are just personal preference and by basing decisions on facts rather than assumptions. That’s a good metric anyway, because using assumptions can leaf to bad decisions in many other ways as well. Which reflects that fact that you are not likely to go wrong by trying to be fair.

    1. NW Mossy*

      You’re certainly right that it benefits hiring managers to give a lot more thought to what they truly need vs. want vs. aspire to in a prospective employee rather than using mental shortcuts and spurious associations to justify hiring someone on what’s basically gut instinct. They’ll be more successful at hiring well if they do that.

      That said, we’re all human beings and none of us are perfect at making the objectively “best” choice at any one time. We do get influenced by things we shouldn’t in a perfect world. And that, I think, is the point of saying that there’s no obligation to be fair – it’s really about saying that sometimes things aren’t objectively fair but that doesn’t make the person who did it bad or cruel, but merely a human who made a mistake. Fairness is so heavily loaded with this idea of morality, but unfairness is not necessarily caused by malicious intent.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      A lot of the “your employer doesn’t have an obligation to be fair” advice comes from the fact that if you fixate on how fair or unfair they are being, you become emotionally drained and don’t actually achieve increased fairness. You will just become even more miserable about the situation. Accepting that it isn’t fair and moving on is somethings the best that we can do. No one is telling the managers who write in for advice that they don’t have to be fair (or shouldn’t try to be).

    3. Kathenus*

      I see what you’re saying but don’t completely agree. As a hiring manager, one of my strengths is using my experience, instincts and judgment to make some assumptions on how the person would work with me, fit with the team, align with the values and culture of the organization, etc. These aren’t know-able facts, but are – in my opinion – valuable factors that are a part of selecting a candidate; in addition to the facts such as experience level, specific skill set, and such. Every hiring manager has their own style and process, but for me a combination of tangible and intangible factors are involved in trying to find the best fit for the position.

      1. Observer*

        That’s not what I’m addressing, though (with one exception).

        It’s perfectly fair to use your judgement to decide that candidate a will probably generate better work product than candidate b, even if you don’t have concrete proof of that and are trusting your judgement.

        It’s another to decide, for instance, that you’re not hiring redheads because “redheads have tempers.” Or that the guy who would be a great drinking buddy is your top candidate because you like people who “know how to have a good time” when your team does work that has nothing to do with “having a good time”. Or to decide to decline a candidate because of an assumption that you made, even though you could have checked it out very quickly and easily.

        All of these things are legal, but they are unfair. And they are closely linked to the kind of thinking and behavior that leads to discrimination law suits.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is almost tettering on border of some of my old philosophy courses. Very interesting stuff.
      I think looking at terms is helpful. There’s obligations, ethics, and legal.

      The sentence you use here is “your employer/manager” so this is being said to an employee not a boss. As you say it benefits a new employee to help set reasonable expectations.
      I think the advice to the boss would be different. “You are expected to be fair at all times.”

      Now we get into the meat and potatoes.
      Just because it’s legal does not mean it is fair. (Landlord-tenant laws.)
      Just because it’s illegal does not mean it’s fair. (Marijuana laws)
      We cannot always use the law as our guide to what is fair.

      What about ethics? What about being fair and remaining ethical?

      Oh boy. yikes.
      We know what happens when some folks bring their ethics from church into the workplace.
      Let’s not go there.
      So what happens when people bring their culturally based ethics into the workplace.
      Peach. That does not always work.
      So for different reasons being ethically fair is as much as a minefield as being legally fair.

      Now what.
      This is a huge chunk of management, in my opinion. A manager has to learn to be fair to everyone involved. It’s not easy and sometimes it’s impossible. There are no hard and set rules of fairness. Yes, managers will make mistakes that is an absolute certainty. Picture a juggler with balls labeled, “legal compliance, company compliance, moral obligation to a fellow human being.” They have to keep all the balls moving all the time.

      Some managers go with the greater good. Which people object to for solid reasons.
      Many managers are good about some things but not others.

      I think the worst problem is bosses who fail to grow with the job. In your example of the redhead or the drinking buddy these are bosses who should not be in management. They are failing to thrive. They are not questioning their decisions and sharpening their skills. Being in management is a privilege not a something that is OWED to anyone. A manager has to earn her privilege of managing people everyday. Just like an employee has to earn their privilege to hold a job everyday. This means a manager has to manage their decisions, think and analyze what is the best to do for the company and for the group. The redhead boss and the drinking buddy boss are not capable of thinking on a broad plain like this. Management requires being able to use a big picture perspective.

      It’s my hope that we can push companies to be fair more often. There is a lot of crap going on out there and we can’t get the basics in place where everyone agrees not to discriminate. I keep thinking maybe the generations younger than me will get further with things.

      For day-to-day practical advice we have to use what our reality is today. But that does not mean we have no recourse. We can plant seeds for what should be in place and is not. (I can see AAM being of influence in years to come.) We can tell the boss who won’t hire redheads that he should read up on that stereotype, or we can bring him an article. Party boss, we can ask pointed questions. “How will New Hire help our place? What part of the project will he be working on?” It’s subtle but it lets the boss know that we expect the boss to BE a leader in name and in actions.

      Maybe if someone does a study to show how toxic bosses are driving up healthcare costs, then we will get a crackdown on these unfair or nasty bosses.

  95. State govt employee*

    Our agency’s salaries were published today. I hate knowing who got the biggest raises, but I can’t help myself. I had to look. My boss got a good-sized raise despite being a terrible boss. I got zero. I hate my life.

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is one the biggest sucks of working in government. The only consolation is, at least where I live, that most government jobs still pay more than the private sector.

  96. salary in interviews*

    So I just got off the phone with a HR rep for a company and the convo was going great until salary came up. I said I was looking for $100K and she said they had budgeted $80K at the higher end, and that for the right candidate, there’s a possibility of paying more. I said $80K is the lowest I’d go, but that I was also looking for the right culture and role and that I was still really interested in the position.

    Now I’m panicking that this was the wrong thing to say and that it’s going to cost me moving forward. I really would be fine with $80K. Do I mention something in my thank you email and reiterate how interested I am in the job?

    1. salary in interviews*

      I should add that market range for the rate in my city seems to be between $80K – $120K. Glassdoor had this position listed as $110K for the company, but it’s a big company so I don’t know if it was regarding a different department (and I know GD should be taken with a grain of salt).

    2. RG*

      As someone who’s had these conversations from the other side, you did fine from my perspective. If they’re interested in you as a candidate, they’ll take that as a positive sign. If they’re not, they might use it as a reason in the rejection, but it won’t be the only one. If someone’s the right candidate, I’ll take them at their word on if they say they’re willing to take a salary I’m willing to pay (or at least probe it much further in other interviews).

      1. salary in interviews*

        Oh, that’s good to hear. I think I was so worried because when I said $100K, there was a pause and then after she said the salary they had budgeted, I didn’t want it to come off like I was so desperate for the job that I was agreeing to anything.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I agree with RG, and also think you’re on the right track sending a note that reiterates how interested you are in the position.

        2. msroboto*

          Are you really fine taking a job for 80K if you / the job is worth 100K? You may want to rethink that. If you take this job for 80K it’s unlikely that you will get raises to 100K in short order. How long will you be happy at this rate?

          1. salary in interviews*

            $100K is a goal salary. $80K is still more than I currently make, and through my research, it is accurate for the position in my location.

            Sure, I’d be happier with $100K, but $80K will satisfy me for about two-three years, which is usually when I start looking to move companies anyway.

  97. o.b.*

    Update: the hiring manager needs a reference from my current supervisor

    Thank you, everyone! I bit the bullet and had an uncomfortable conversation with my boss, who was disappointed but agreed to provide the reference. In a way, I’m glad I had to bring up my job search, because we were able to start planning my potential transition with several months’ notice. Many people said they would start to manage me out, but luckily it’s not the kind of organization/job where that would be possible.

    And… I got the job!!! Kind of. Anxiously awaiting the final paperwork and trying not to count it as a sure thing until then. Anyone who works in government — how long did your hiring process take?

  98. Purple snowdrop*

    My team manager bought my meal when we were out this week for a (social) meal.

    This has never happened before. I’ve always worked in the UK public sector.

    I was so touched!!

  99. Mallory Janis Ian*

    I’m starting a new job on Monday — moving jobs to another campus department. Is a full solar eclipse a good omen or a bad omen for my first day of work? ;-)

    2. Rainy, not-PI*

      I think it’s a good omen, especially if it’s an astrophysics/planetary science department. ;)

    6. Chaordic One*

      OTOH, I read that it is a bad omen for a certain person with orange hair and small hands. I’m just sayin’.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Ha. I’m fine if it’s a bad omen for that person, as long as it’s not a bad one for me :-)

  100. a girl has no name*

    I do in-house PR for a large non-profit organization. We have had an extremely successful year with media placements. I am gathering all of this info. for our VP to present to the board. My question is this-our organization does not do merit raises. They give cost of living raises and vacation and sick leave is determined by years of service. I’ve already asked for a title change and after review, they have decided to leave it as is. This set-up seems silly-why would you work hard if you aren’t rewarded for it? Why wouldn’t you just hang around a do the bare minimum? (That does happen around here-it’s a whole separate issue.) Should I just continue to apply elsewhere and accept the status quo or is there some other way to push for a raise/more vacay?

    Thanks for the help in advance! This blog has been a godsend.

    1. SophieChotek*

      If there is no way to get extra PTO/Sick days or a raise (because the rules are set in stone) and your request for title change was denied, I can see where you would think you might as well do the bare minimum. I’d probably continue to do a great job (so you have that on your resume/can talk about it in your cover letter) and keep looking!

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve worked primarily for non-profits in my career, with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, as the economy worsened, getting COL increases only has become more of the norm and is frequently the new reality in my experience. So my title stays the same, I get my 2% raise, and work hard to do a good job because that’s how I was raised and the commitment I made when I took the job. While I’d love to make more money, I realize that doing what I do means that may not be an option beyond the minimum. So I can choose to accept that, enjoy being in a career I’m passionate about, and be the best at it I can – or I can choose to move on to another field or another organization that pays more.

      1. curmudgeon*

        in lots of nfps you don’t even get a COL raise…after 19 months here, I got 1.5%COl and nothing else. It is now costing me even more to simply keep this job
        (btw, the CEO got a 10% raise + bonus)

    3. Observer*

      Talk to your boss about a bonus – that’s sometimes doable even when the salary can’t be changed.

  101. RG*

    I accidentally ghosted an interviewee. Is it too late to reach out?

    I’d interviewed for an open position a few months ago and just realized I missed a follow-up with one of our candidates after two rounds of phone interviews (no work exercises or in person interviews). Is it better to just let it lie at this point, or should I reach out, apologize, and “reject” them? I can’t figure out which path here minimizes harm.

    1. KR*

      Maybe you could say something like, “I realized that I never got back to you and wanted to say that though we decided to go with another candidate, you had strong credentials. Thank you for your time and I encourage you to apply again should a position open with our company.”

  102. Jillociraptor*

    I need one reassurance and one piece of advice!

    My new boss started on Monday. I like her a lot, but this is not the right job for me. Within an hour of starting, she said “If you’re thinking of leaving, don’t.” Eep. Please reassure me that it’s okay to be looking?

    Second, I just applied for an internal role within my organization. I know several people in the office, including someone who I think is helping to coordinate the search. Would it be appropriate to reach out to her and set up some time to chat about the position? Should I wait to see if I’m invited to an interview? We have worked together often and she has offered in the past to get coffee to talk about my career path, so I think she’d be open to a conversation, but I’m thinking about timing. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re asking a lot of a brand new boss to on her first day reassure a valued employee that it’s okay for her to be looking elsewhere. I will reassure you that it’s okay to be looking instead, since I don’t need you :-).

      I would reach out to the person you know now; depending on her level of involvement, she may not be able to talk to you, and if so the deeper the search has gone the more of a problem it would be.

      1. Dankar*

        I think Jillociraptor is asking us to reassure her, and I agree! Your new boss cannot and should not tell you not to leave. After all, why would someone want to keep employees in a position they’re not interested in/suited to/excited about?

        Since boss is new, though, when/if you do end up leaving, make sure to leave excellent handover documents. That will go a long way toward alleviating her fears about losing institutional knowledge along with you!

    2. Chaordic One*

      If you liked the job with your old boss, you should at least give your new one a chance.

      It is always O.K. to be looking and it would certainly be appropriate to reach out to the woman who has offered in the past to get coffee and talk about your career path. No, you don’t have to see if you’re invited to an interview first. Be prepared that she might be involved in coordinating the search and that, even if she is, you might not be invited to an interview.

      Still, you can pump her for information like asking what skills and experiences would make you a stronger candidate for position, and what positions might be coming up in the future. And certainly look outside of your organization, too. Usually there’s never a “good time” to leave.

      OTOH, I’ve often had a good job go bad when a new boss came along so you might well be better off to leave now. Your new boss might well find that it is better to train someone new in your position who will do things exactly the way she wants them done, instead of how you’ve been doing them.

  103. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

    I am continuing to use my non-regular username for things that reference pregnancy. So I am no longer very sleepy all the time! The bad news is I got SUPER sick. Fortunately, my boss was awesome and let me almost exclusively work from home for weeks 6-11ish, when I was puking up a storm and losing tons of weight.

    A combination of drugs + entering the second trimester means I am now a mostly functional human being. I am back to working in the office. My new question is, should I tell the folks who work around me (though not *with* me, if that makes sense) that I am pregnant? Or should I let them figure it out? And if I should tell them, how?

    For context: I work in a cube zone. In my little pod, there are six desks. One is my teammate who has known since I was 6 weeks along, and he was a champ about skyping me into any meetings and generally being accommodating. He is mid 30s, father of two, husband of a doctor. So he’s super awesome and not at all awkward with pregnant people.

    The issue I see is telling the men who are in my cube pod and the neighboring ones. Aside from me (late 20s female) and teammate, ALL OF THEM are men, ages 22-24, with poor understandings of workplace norms. While I am in the same department as them, I rarely work directly with them. The one time I did have to run a project with one of them on it, I had to do extensive coaching with the guy about basic things like email etiquette (eg, “You cannot email a mostly female department with the salutation ‘Hey Ladies.’ We are already seen as the department of Bros, do not make that worse.”). Based on that experiences, and others, I have every reason to expect at least some of these dudes to ask inappropriate questions and/or make inappropriate comments. There is a lot of random chit-chat throughout the day. I participate in less than most, but I do try to be friendly.

    Though I am not that far along, I am already visibly pregnant for anyone paying attention–I am a petite & thin person to begin with, and I lost >10% of my body mass while I as out (I have always worked from home 1-2 days/week and traveled much more, so I don’t think anyone thought it was *that* odd that I was out of the office for 5 weeks). While I have gained most of the weight back, 100% of the gain has gone to my boobs and belly. Basically, I am now a 5 foot tall stick with giant boobs and a rapidly growing belly.

    So I expect these guys, as clueless as they are, will figure out I’m pregnant before too long. So should I tell them? If so, how?

    (For anyone wondering, my boss and grandboss both know, as do the folks in my department that I am friendly with. They are more in the 25-30 age group, so closer to my age. Everyone in this department is male except for me, but that’s relatively new. Boss, grandboss, and teammate are great, and I don’t expect any pregnancy-related issues from any of them.)

    1. fposte*

      Can’t tell from this–what do you want them to do with this information? Is this a group that regularly communicates personal news?

      You’re certainly not obliged to officially inform them of your physical state just because it’s there, and it’s not that big a deal if they don’t figure it out on their own. Just make sure they know when you’ll be out if they need to cover stuff and that you’re not lagging on established office protocols.

      And congrats on, you know, barfing less.

      1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

        They do regularly communicate personal stuff with each other, during chit-chat (for example, one right now is having epic landlord problems. Another wishes to sleep with his roommate, but is unsure if that is a good idea–I chimed in on that one with NOPE. Please don’t do that to your female roommate.).

        I am more reserved, generally, but they know I am married, have a cat, and socialize with the folks downstairs.

        Basically, I am thinking they will have the information no matter what. Within a week or two, I expect to be 100% unmistakably pregnant. I expect odd comments & questions no matter what.

        I’m wondering if telling them is more likely to prevent awkwardness or more likely to increase it (by sort of inviting conversation).

        Oh, and I don’t expect my absence to affect any of them at all. It’ll affect boss, grandboss, teammate, and a woman in another department I regularly work with. They all know, and we are working on a plan to schedule projects so it won’t be an issue. Working with CluelessDude #1 was not normal and just came up on one project. My team is pretty specialized and it’s kinda odd we’re in the same department.

        1. fposte*

          I will unhelpfully say that I don’t think it matters much and that either way is fine. I might feel I had more control if I officially told (in a deceptively informal way, of course). A late Friday afternoon email (or Slack, or whatever) would be perfect if you’re feeling it, because people will have forgotten by Monday anyway.

          1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

            ooo late Friday afternoon email works great with my current working from home… I’ll think about that.

        2. Snark*

          You can be as forthcoming as you like. I think you can address inappropriate and odd comments in the moment. There’s really no excuse for any male old enough to drive to be weird about pregnancy, so I suggest a dose of snark.

          “Yeah, as a general rule of life, don’t ever say that to another pregnant lady.”

          “Yes, I’m pregnant. I don’t really have anything to share beyond that.”

          “We’re just going to pretend you never said that and move on, okay?”

          “Why do you say that?” This is a catchall.

          1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

            I once used the “Why do you say that?” approach. And then I got a super lengthy explanation of the guy’s thought process. I just sort of blinked repeatedly and then went back to work. I don’t even remember what the comment was or the explanation, just the awkwardness of it all.

            I do like “Yes, I’m pregnant. I don’t really have anything to share beyond that.”

            1. Snark*

              You know, I realize that it’s possible for someone to be that thick in theory, but it’s somehow terribly depressing to know that someone has put it into practice.

      2. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

        Oh, and thanks for the congrats! It has been three full weeks since my last barf! Once I got on the right set of medications, the barfing did stop pretty quickly. But that took a few weeks of trial and error, and it took even longer for my food aversions to get to a point where I could eat high calorie foods (basically, my body only accepted fresh fruit and carrots for 4 weeks. It could be worse! But there’s a limit to how well a no-fat, no-protein diet can sustain a body).

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t have anything to add other than I had a colleague, 25 years old, who wasn’t in the staff meeting when my pregnancy was announced. Later he came to my office and said “So, I hear you’re knocked up.” Be prepared for that. ;-) (I thought it was hilarious.)

      1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

        Ha! I totally expect something like that. Things like that I can definitely laugh at.

        It’s more the awkward questions or something like commenting on my size that I am more worried about. I would not put it passed a couple of these guys to say something like, “OH that’s why your boobs are bigger.” But at least one of them is clueless enough about biology to even know that boobs growing is a part of pregnancy One day, he actually asked me why his girlfriend said she needed to take her birth control pills every day. He legitimately thought that they were like plan B and you only take when you’re having sex. He had thought that her taking them every day meant she was sleeping with someone else, and he wanted to check with another woman to verify his girlfriend’s “WTF?!” response to his accusation. My response was along the lines of “What?! Dude, use google! The website Scarletteen is an excellent resource. Go read… like everything there. And apologize to your girlfriend! And, uh, please don’t ask me these sorts of questions again.”

        So, yeah. These fresh out of college guys are interesting coworkers. 7/12 of them are awesome, but that still leaves me with 5 dipshits.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Maybe if you consider furthering their education your gift to the world, that will make the whole thing more palatable. ;-)

          1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

            Nah, I tried that and just felt like I was doing unpaid work, and the cranky feminist in me does not allow that. When I was actually supervising one of them for a few weeks, I definitely viewed it as my job (see note that the start about email etiquette). But in general, we are on the same level, in parallel roles. I’ve just been here over 4 years, and all of them <2. It's not my job to train them, though I do definitely answer questions and give help when asked (they don't ask often, though. I think they assume I have less technical knowledge than I do).

            After one REALLY inappropriate comment from one of them (wondering what "African" hair felt like and if he should ask a black person about touching their hair! Holy legal liability, batman!) last week, I did go to grandboss (my grandboss=their grandboss) and suggest bringing in someone to do some extra diversity & inclusion training with the newbies. Grandboss was rightfully horrified and is looking into how and when that can be done. It is grandboss's job to educate them, and he takes that seriously. Grandboss is great.

            1. Observer*

              And these are college graduates?!

              All I can say is that it’s a REALLY poor advertisement for the “educational” properties of college. How does someone get through college in the current climate and think it’s ok to ask that? Although I have to say that while it’s more horrifying it’s a touch less ignorant and surprising than the one who didn’t know how BC works – although jumping to accusing his GF of sleeping around makes me think that he’s not just ignorant but a serious jerk (and someone I might advise the GF to dump.)

  104. On Fire*

    Sarah and Callie are both tea set painting experts. Sarah usually paints tea cups, while Callie paints teapots. Both are well-qualified for either.

    A client requests a design of wild violets painted on tea cups. Although Sarah usually does cups, Callie has more experience painting wild violets. Also, the client contacts Callie directly to place the order, partially because of Callie’s violet-painting experience.

    Callie immediately follows through and paints the tea cups (she is allowed to take the order; this was not a violation). The client and her friends are very pleased, resulting in follow-up work. This results in more money for the company, but does not affect either artist’s pay.

    Sarah is upset that Callie did not let her paint (or assist with) the tea cups, since she usually does the cups. She complains to the tea set supervisor.

    If you’re the supervisor, how would you handle this?

    1. KR*

      Tell Callie to CC her coworker on communication involving tea cups in the future and involve her in it, even to let her know what’s happening. Tell Sarah that you understand where she’s coming from but she needs to get over it.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Sarah should understand that the client requested Callie directly due to liking her work and their wishes come first.

    3. Snark*

      I’d nip it in the bud. “Sarah, I understand that you usually handle our tea cup painting, but the client specifically requested Callie and was very happy with the work that she did. This isn’t going to take work away from you, but teacups are not 100% your baby and you need to get over it.”

    4. fposte*

      Depends on company policy, but in general, clients come first; this one asked for a specific employee and had a legitimate reason. Sarah doesn’t own the cups; she just specializes in them.

    5. On Fire*

      (OP for this question)

      Thank you all for the above answers. That was how we handled it, but I wanted to get some other people’s perspective.

  105. Never Gonna Catch Up Millennial*

    I think my story is typical for people of my age. I graduated in 2008, got a job in the media business, was promoted at 6 months and was laid off October of 2009. The job market was absolutely abysmal so I went to graduate school. During that time I worked part time in social services. It took a year after graduating to get a full time, non-retail job. I got a job at a law firm and was promoted within 3 months. I hated the field and after a year and a half quit and got a job at my current employer, a nonprofit. I have been here almost 3 years and have been promoted twice.

    Long story short, I am 31 and over the years I have developed some valuable skills, but my resume is all over the place–not by choice. I’m not super happy with my current job but I’m looking, but I don’t have 5+ years experience doing anything, even though I’ve been working 10 years. I’m a manager now because I’ve made a big impact at my organization but I doubt I could find a manager level role anywhere else because of my messed up resume. I’m basically starting to lose hope that I will ever make up for the “lost years” of graduating into the recession.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I feel exactly the same way! Not sure how to help you out…it is so frustrating to feel like you have developed some valuable skills and are willing to work hard…but also to know that no employer really “owes you a chance”…ugh! I feel for you/us!

    2. Over educated*

      I hear you. I’m with you. It stinks, especially when you see people younger than you and it seems like they’ve been able to advance faster. I spent more years than you in grad school, which sometimes feels like even more wasted time because I haven’t been able to advance in place anywhere. It just qualifies me for a very, very small number of higher level niche jobs so I’m trying to land one of those.

      I think one thing that has helped me is really counting *all* my experience as valuable – for instance, I don’t have 5+ years experience in one job, but my term position doing grant management and event planning allows me to say I have some experience with those responsibilities when I interview for other jobs that include components of them. Perhaps there are aspects of your work in social services and at the law firm that could come into play at another nonprofit that focuses on social or political issues, for instance. Also, the manager level experience you are getting NOW is what will make you marketable for manager level roles elsewhere. Don’t be afraid to apply for the stretch jobs, I’ve had more luck with them than with aiming low.

    3. extra anon today*

      My experience is extremely parallel but in the sciences. It is so frustrating to still be seen as basically entry level even though I have 10 years of working experience and a master’s degree. A 22 year old was just hired at my exact title but with slightly lower pay. It’s infuriating! Hitting the job market in 2008 basically set me back by years. When I see letter writers in their twenties say they are big manger types I get so disheartened.

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      Three pieces of advice:

      1. Don’t worry about meeting every single requirement in a job listing. Read the description and decide for yourself if you think you’d be good at it. You may not actually need 5 full years of experience in something to get a job with more responsibility.
      2. Look for broader categories in which you might actually have more experience. If you have two years of writing experience and three years of editing experience, well, you’ve got five years of communications experience.
      3. Go hard on quantifying your achievements on your resume, and be prepared to talk about them in interviews. Making a significant and measurable impact on a business will often take you further than just putting in the time for 5 years.

    5. RebeccaNoraBunch*

      Not sure how much this helps but I am right there with you. 34, graduated from grad school in 2007, and had those “lost years” too. Right now I’m padding my resume like a madwoman and trying not to be jealous of the 22 year olds who are getting into the same entry-level job I was grateful to get into at 30.

  106. Bwahnonymous*

    Constant interruptions ahoy! I do part-time receptionist/part-time in-my-own-office stuff in the same department (gotta love budget shortfalls), and the receptionist gig is killing me. People feel the need to make off-hand comments every time they walk through reception, stand outside by the window and wave/make a scene until I acknowledge them, stand around and chat for a long time even after we’ve both acknowledged that I’m really busy (or they’ll talk to each other and comment to me “oh, wow, I don’t know how you work with us out here like this! Back to what we were saying…”), and other things like that.

    My work is the same whether I’m at reception or in my office (and, uh, it’s assistant director level work, at the least, FWIW), and the constant interruptions and disruptions at reception have actually now resulted in mistakes in my work. (I don’t often make mistakes.) It’s also starting to just basically drive me up the wall and put me in a sour mood. My boss, who is otherwise great and has done a lot to keep me challenged and paid well, just shrugs this off: “it’s reception, comes with the territory, make a label for me, is there mail yet?”

    Some days, it’s a real deal breaker. Other days, it just sucks. Any tips?

    1. Observer*

      Time to have a chat with your boss. I’ve seen situations where people have had to cover the front desk on a regular basis, and it’s simply not possible to get the same level of work done. They need to rethink how they are handling coverage, and who gets asked / told to do it.

      In the meantime, it’s fine for you to end any given interaction once whatever they need is taken care of. Also, you can ask people to please take it elsewhere.

  107. Overworked, burning out and keep crying on my stoic old-school boss*

    I work in a pretty old-fashioned industry in the UK (not overtly sexist or anything, just very Stiff Upper Lip). I started three months ago in a four-person team, which had one vacancy. The two other people left in my first three weeks. My manager (Margaery) has not trained me, instead telling me I “just have to pick it up, it’s the way [industry] works”, and delegates most of her work to me to help me “learn about all the areas”. Margaery is now on leave for four weeks.

    Because I am new to the industry and still on probation, I had trouble identifying that my failing to get all the work done was because it was four people’s work, including one senior manager’s, not because I’m bad at my job and too thick to pick things up quickly. I have also found out that every one of Margaery’s direct reports in the last two years has taken time off for stress and left in less than six months (this is very unusual in the industry). On Monday and Tuesday I kept having to go to the ladies’ to cry – it felt like a huge black band was around my chest and every email that came in was squeezing it tighter.

    On Tuesday I realised this was a problem, and I tried to bring this to my boss’s boss (Mace) for help, but kept crying through the meeting. He was sympathetic and agreed it is too much work, but he’s a bit conflict-averse, and I don’t expect the situation to change as long as Margaery is my manager, as she will keep dumping her work on me and driving other people away. I want to transfer to another team, but to do this I need credibility and a good reputation, and I can’t figure out how to establish these in my situation. Today Mace asked me if “things in general are looking OK?” and I started crying again, which I’m sure is also hurting my reputation. I love what we’re working on, and I really don’t want to leave, but I can’t see a way to show him that I’m not useless and overemotional, and am worth keeping on staff, just on another team.

    1. Snark*

      Honestly, the bursting into tears thing is something you’ve got to get a firmer handle on. Once or twice in a great while is fine, and I realize that tears are a common response to frustration and anger, not just sadness or emotional breakdown, but…..the optics are not good, particularly for a new and unknown quantity.

      I would suggest directing a calm, factual email to Mace and your boss, explaining what’s causing you so much anxiety in this position, and identifying a few things you need, whether from Margaery or someone else, to thrive in your position.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Well, if you’re crying like this at work it sounds like stress and like it’s making you unwell.

        Can you ask Mace what to prioritise, and be clear that can’t be everything?

    2. o.b.*

      Oh, my sympathies. Crying is not an unreasonable response to such an unreasonable situation. However, maybe try a few things:
      -can you recognize the signs of being about to cry and excuse yourself to a safe space? I am sometimes able to hold myself together for an extra few minutes if I know I’ll be somewhere safe very soon
      -are you taking breaks every day? Lunch and maybe a 15 minute walk? When I’m overworked, I often skip my breaks, which makes me even more stressed. Also, when I had a job like this I would cry on my lunch breaks, making it easy to lie to my managers’ faces about how I was doing
      -I know you’re new to this position, but do you have a sense yet for how much you can reasonably accomplish? Be clear with Mace and Margaery about this and ask how they want you to prioritize. Alison has a lot of good scripts for this. If Marg pushes back, hold firm and remember it’s her who’s unreasonable, not you for being unable to accomplish a superhuman amount of work
      -Do well on the things you can do. Establish a reputation. Wait a few months (or as long as you can) and go back to Mace. Make it clear that working for Marg long term is completely untenable. He will not be surprised by this. Ask for his support transitioning to another team (Marg will not support you, as you already know) — because you love your organization and work, but your initial concerns still stand and you will otherwise need to start looking outside the organization.

      Good luck. You can make it through this.

  108. Laney*

    Hi everyone, I wanted to hear other people’s experiences or witnessing female rivalry or bullying in the workplace. How common is it and what are some tactics to shut it down/nip it in the bud?

    1. Snark*

      Need much more information. Is this bullying directed at you or someone else? Are you in a supervisory role, or a coworker?

    2. Laney*

      I forgot to add “subtle” bullying, things that are hard to prove but very real and disruptive.

    4. LCL*

      F to F bullying is as common as any other. People are people and sometimes people suck. Supply more details and more people will post strategies.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      Just to be clear, you aren’t going to find a huge appetite for “bitches be crazy” among the commenters here.

    6. AnonIMustB*

      I can share with you my experiences – in 2 different roles.
      1. I worked in an all-women office of 15 team members and a boss and second in charge, for over a bit over 2 years. The IT team member would not “allow” a bigger desk for an individual contributor. “Too many cables and things to move” was her excuse. And, she constantly sniped at this other team member with all kinds of inappropriate stuff. This behaviour of sniping and dismissing went on for a year. The desk-needing team member needed the bigger desk for a variety of valid reasons: it was the smallest one in the office at 3 feet lengthwise, for one reason. She used it for over 3 years and had ended up in a role that had a lot of paper crossing her desk and no room for any of it with her computer, phone, monitor etc. The big boss did not care to be involved, was clueless anyway, and all other team members had standard desks. One night at 9, the team member and two others of us went to the basement of the building where there were literally 4 large, normal-sized desks…. and moved it to her floor, cabled and re installed everything and ensured there were no issues with others’ space in the area etc. After a week, the IT team member commented on it that it was a nice change. And never was passive aggressive to the other woman again. The big boss never noticed either behaviour of IT member or desk issue at all.
      2. My former boss bullied me for a year – she really wanted to be “friends” and not professionals, and wanted to have “yes” people surround her. I tried to accommodate most of her requests as I held the roles of Comms and IT and was unable to manage all of the workload. I became her target a year into my time there and lasted only another year. She’d fired Directors, downsized offices from 3 rooms to a large room for all of us, and became interested in all the glamour of being the big boss. When I needed my workload prioritised, and asked about it, I got some help then a week or two later it would all change…and she would want to re-do a lot of my work manually – web work she would print out and re-write after giving no direction on needs and when asked for clarifications she would get really annoyed. I began to be so stressed out that I did not care if she did not like that I was asking for guidance and I started to do what I could and leave at a normal hour (not 7-8pm like she would do). I had to cope with her bullying that I was being a bad team member, her chaotic behaviour of forgetting meetings, changing direction regularly, stating we did things as an org we did not do… that I finally snapped one day and we agreed to a mutual leaving package.
      I am aware of the role I had in the dynamic – I ended up seeing a counsellor for several months to work on my reactions to being in a chaotic place and I am not proud of how I lost it at the end. But it was, and still is, a toxic environment. I hear from current staff she’s been targeting the fundraising director recently and others. So it’s not gotten better.
      I guess the point I have here is if it is from the top down, or if the bullying is a part of the culture, there is no “nipping it in the bud”.

    7. Squeeble*

      I totally was guilty of doing this as a young, insecure new professional, and I think it’s very common, especially since women are taught to view one another as competition from an early age.

      Especially if the women in question are in the same or similar roles, don’t lump them together if you can help it. Figure out their individual strengths and emphasize and develop those talents. Assign them separate tasks and definitely avoid giving them a project together and letting them split it up the way they want to.

      In my particular case, I was one of two women hired for identical roles, and we were similar in a lot of ways. People treated us as a pair and it really heightened my sense that I needed to be “better” than the other one if I was going to get any recognition or move forward in that role.

  109. IrishEm*

    I am so depressed about my current situation, and I don’t know how to fix it. I’m working part time on a govt sponsored back-to-the-workforce scheme that means the govt is subsidising me to the not-for-profit doesn’t have to give me a wage. Yay for the company, they get a free worker. Boo for me, because the money is shit and exactly what I was on on Jobseeker’s Allowance. Ergo I feel like I’m working for nothing (or the same as if I wasn’t working) and am finding it incredibly difficult to go to work because I feel completely unvalued on a human level – and I am aware that that’s not right, intellectually I am aware that this is intended to be a stepping stone, but I get so frustrated when sending off applications into the Void and getting sweet Fanny Adams back in terms of interest.

    It doesn’t help that a friend who used to work in recruitment told me that she always assumed people who were unemployed had something wrong because why don’t you just get a job? In the context of me, an unemployed person asking why I cant get a job, even one that has zero satisfaction but a decent wage.

    I had a point when I started this comment, but damn if it hasn’t wandered off somewhere. I just feel like I’ll never get anything, let alone something I’d be good at or enjoy, and it sucks. *sigh*

    1. curmudgeon*

      hang in there! I know it sucks and I know it feels like “why should I work if I’m going to be paid the same to stay home” but in the long run, you will feel better working for the money they are allocating to you. And you get a job credit on your resume!
      And they keep telling me that it’s easier to get hired if you are currently working…

      One thing I’m learning in my soulsucking low wage job is that it is up to me to feel valued in a place that does nto value me.

      1. Anna Held*

        1) Your friend sucks.

        2) Think about your job objectively. What are they trying to achieve? What is your role in that? Do you support your mission? If so, then you’re adding benefit to the world.

        3) Strategize how to make the situation work for you. What new skills have you gained? Are there any professional development opportunities? Networking? New experiences that lend themselves to interview questions? Work hard at doing your best, which will be better for your self esteem, but also better for references. Try to think of a new process or a new event, or create a training document, or something above and beyond to put on your resume, impress your boss, and most importantly, impress yourself. I agree that having a routine and a place to go is a huge help for you personally, and having a current job will help you find a new one. Make it work for you.

        4) Take care of yourself. You sound like you might be depressed, and no wonder. A lack of ideas, motivation, and seeing everything as pointless are all signs of depression. Do what you need to get through this. Besides, focusing on something outside of work, like a fun new hobby or a new exercise regime, can help you restore a sense of balance. I’ve been where you are but without the make-work job, and my volunteer position I did while unemployed led to the job I had now.

  110. Over educated*

    I read a fascinating article called “How work changed to make us all passionate quitters” the other day and couldn’t wait to discuss it here! Link will be in reply. I find it very accurate my experiences over the last few years, but I’ve also been in early career “stepping stone” positions (term, part time, etc.) and not in tech. Does this feel true to others here?

    (I’m probably going to post 2 or 3 times today, lots on my mind!)

    2. AnotherAlison*

      This is fascinating. . .I was actually thinking about posting something that falls right in line with this topic today. This paragraph precisely nails the “beef” I’ve been having with my job lately.

      “Your job might be a space to learn skills that you can use in the future. Or, it might be a job with a company that has a good-enough reputation that other companies are keen to hire away its employees. On the other hand, it isn’t as good a job if everything you learn there is too specific to that company, if you aren’t learning easily transferrable skills. It isn’t a good job if it enmeshes you in local regulatory schemes and keeps you tied to a particular location. And it isn’t a good job if you have to work such long hours that you never have time to look for the next job.”

      I work for a fantastic old-school type of company in a mature industry. People do spend their careers here. You do get to build a relationship and be valued for your steadiness and conscientiousness. So, I think I have a great job. But, my industry is changing. There isn’t really another company I would want to work for doing what I do, but my skills aren’t extremely transferable, either. I’m in project management, so I think I could get a job somewhere doing something, but my value that gets me the salary I have is my industry and company knowledge. Worthless to the market.

      I have been trying to figure out how to get around this, because I have a lot of time in with my company and industry already. It is hard for me to imagine that the world won’t shift enough in my next 20 working years that I will need a different job somewhere else, but as they said in the article, I work long hours. In my case, this doesn’t limit job searching time, but rather time to learn new skills on my own.

      Thanks for sharing this!

    3. Manders*

      This is fascinating, thank you! It’s definitely true to my experience.

      I live in an area where the cost of living is skyrocketing, and I’ve *never* seen a company seriously plan for COL adjustments–they just expect people to leave after a few years, and they’ll figure out the market rate of the position the next time they have to hire for it. Staying too long in a job (unless you’re already in a highly paid tech position, and those turn over a lot for different reasons) means you’re likely to get stuck in a salary range calculated based on an outdated COL.

      I do have some friends who are genuinely loyal to their employers–but they’re also dangerously close to the poverty line, if not below it, at small nonprofits and businesses.

  112. Justin*

    I do employee training at my job, which I’ve had for 7 months. I don’t technically develop the curriculum (not, say, lesson plans but in this case, big thick technical “participant guides” that the developers can take 6-7 months to research and create). Technically no one is only a developer, you either just train or you develop and train, and we had a d/t person leave earlier this summer. That spot is open but I don’t really have that experience (and I just started), so I didn’t ask to apply.

    BUT

    Yesterday my boss told me he and the other managers had talked and suggested I apply. Which is great, since it means they hold me in high regard, but I genuinely don’t have the 2 years development experience that they want – and they know that.

    I have to apply officially for legal reasons (so, send in a resume and CL) and then I’ll be interviewed by… the 5 managers who already know me well.

    For others who have applied for internal promotions where you’d be taking on responsibilities you haven’t had… what are those interviews like? How should I prepare? (I have to figure he wouldn’t tell me to apply if they weren’t going to give me a shot to interview.) And what do I write in a cover letter to people who know me?

    No matter what happens (and again, I think I have a good shot), it’s a far cry from my last job where I expressed an interest in a long open position and my boss told me not to apply, whereas they are clearly willing to train me here and I appreciate that.

    1. Emma*

      I interviewed (unsuccessfully) for an internal position where my boss told me I should apply. I came in 2nd place. The interview was (mostly) the same as if it would have been if I were an external candidate. In the interview, at different points I met with a bunch of staff members. Once challenge was keeping the staff members I knew well on topic, they got kind of “joke-y,” like “oh, we already know you.” That was just 20 minutes of a 4 hour interview, though. The rest was like any other interview. When I submitted my cover letter and resume, I submitted the same type of information I would have as if I were applying to an external job, covering my skills, examples, etc, basically selling myself.

      I’d assume that you’re going to be compared against others, so bring your A game. Even if they know and like you, it’s not a guarantee that there won’t be someone more qualified. So also mentally ask yourself how things will be for you if they hire someone else. I was devastated, but eventually got over it. I work directly with the person who’s in the position I interviewed for. Just one thing to think about!

      1. Justin*

        I’d be okay if they went with someone else, since I actually had the chance to apply for this higher job when I applied for this one and thought I had a better chance of getting this current one (and then I got it, so). The person they hired for the other job left after a short stint (to work at a start up… I dunno).

        But yes, will absolutely bring my A game. Thanks for the reply!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I had an interview this past spring for an internal position (my former boss’s role). She encouraged me to apply. I was working on preparing by having discussion/responses ready for my current work accomplishments, things about our department (how we do stuff, what we should change), ideas on what I would need to do to fill my gaps of knowledge to do her role, etc. I also prepped for some generic behavioral questions, so I would not be caught off guard by those. That turned out to be unnecessary. The day before the interview, the hiring committee ended up sending the three candidates a list of questions so we had time to prepare for those specific questions. The interview was a panel with senior people that I work with every day, which made it really kind of weird for me. The other two candidates were internal, but not working in my dept.

      The interview went fine. I felt well-prepared. (I really wanted to over prepare because it’s one thing to not get a job, but it is quite another to give your department a bad impression when they formerly had a good one.) They did throw out some surprise questions, and the questions morphed a little, so it was more conversational than Q&A. The person who got the job has ~10+ years of experience on me and has been a dept. manager before, so I was not at all surprised at the outcome and he is great to work with.

      I think internal interviews are more difficult because you can’t control your impression on them. You don’t have to disclose your worst work moment to outside companies, but your company already knows.

  113. Hey Karma, Over here.*

    Did anyone see the letter in Dear Prudence where a woman at a law firm was told she’d been repeatedly passed over for promotion to partner because she doesn’t attend happy hours, chit chat with colleagues and needs to smile more?
    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2017/08/my_law_firm_said_i_need_to_smile_more.html
    She asked if this was subtle sexism. Prudie pointed out (what was my first thought) it isn’t subtle at all. But is it sexism? She writes that all her male colleagues do less work and leave at 4 but attend these happy hours. Is it sexist or do they just not like her personality? As long as she’s going to continue working 70 hours a week and not quitting, why would they make her partner? Prudence said she could either leave or look into a discrimination suit. What sayeth the commentariat?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      “Not liking her personality” has been a longstanding reason for not promoting women in law firms, accounting firms, banking, etc. Either those jobs have attracted a bizarrely large number of women with bad personalities over the decades, or it’s sexism. As for your question about not making her a partner if she’s willing to work the long hours anyhow, that really isn’t how larger law firms work. The billable hour has a lot to do with it, but in short, associates are hired with the expectation that if they do things right for long enough, they’ll make partner. If they are turned down for partner more than a couple of times, they are generally expected to leave or they are slowly frozen out of work.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Yeah, I just read the letter, and that is some capital B bs. Only having one female partner out of twenty loses them any benefit of the doubt in my mind. They must hire a lot of female associates with “bad personalities.” (Also, she calls this a mid-size firm, but with twenty partners, that’s large enough that my earlier comment on larger firms would still apply.)

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      As long as she’s going to continue working 70 hours a week and not quitting, why would they make her partner?

      That’s my immediate response. A comment I’ve given to a lot of people in bad situations before applies here, which is that you can’t earn your way into being rewarded by someone who doesn’t want to reward you. They get what they need out of you without them having to give you anything else– why would they change this sweet sweet deal they’ve set up for themselves?

      We can chicken or the egg argue over whether the personality clash is based in gender or genuine on its own and there’s no way to know that, but it would be deeply naive to try and claim you could ever decouple the gender issue from her colleague’s perceptions of her.

      1. Observer*

        Actually, in this case we DO know. There are some telling facts here. One is that there is exactly 1 / 20 female partner. The other is that she does socialize, just not the “happy hours”. On the other hand, have you ever heard a guy be told to “smile more”? It doesn’t happen even when he’s a genuine grouch.

    4. Snark*

      My take is that she should address it head-on if she wants to be a partner. “Well, that puts me in a bit of a conundrum, because as you know, I bill more hours than most of the practice and my schedule is constrained by outside obligations that I can’t be flexibile on. I can attend more happy hours and leave my office at 4pm like Dweezil and Wakeen do, but then I’d probably be billing more like X hours per week, and I’d probably be working more like 50-60 hours a week rather than my current 70. Would you like me to attend happy hours and reduce my work hours, or would you like me to continue billing 70 hours a week? ”

      My actual feeling is that she should flip a table and go find a firm that recognizes that there’s only 120 hours in a given week and that people need more than 15 of them to do other stuff like have a functional family.

    5. ZVA*

      The letter writer actually says that “the men that were promoted above me rarely attend any of these events”! So it sounds like they don’t attend the happy hours & were made partner anyway. And yeah, that letter screamed sexism on the firm’s part to me. They may say or even believe that they “don’t like her personality,” but that kind of statement is so often bound up with sexism when it comes to women.

    6. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t think I’ve ever heard a story about a man not getting a job/promotion and being told it was because he needed to smile more. Men who aren’t friendly enough but produce get rewarded for production.

      See also the person upthread who is anon because her story is a “Doozy.”

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        I just checked out Doozy. Different day, same sh!+. Dang.
        And thanks to everyone commenting on this thread. I appreciate everyone looking at different parts of the whole and taking time to share thoughts. It’s really a challenging situation.

    7. neverjaunty*

      It’s sexist. Period.

      Why would they make her partner? In a law firm run by people who aren’t trash fires, because she brings value to the firm, and they’d like her to stay around.

    8. Observer*

      Sexist 100%

      This is not that they don’t like her – “Smile more” is classic “be more womanly / feminine” with a veneer of “objectivity”.

  114. Abcdefg*

    Do you ever use the “treat this as personal” button in outlook? I never noticed it before and wasn’t really familiar with the feature but recently received a work email from a client with that turned on, which I could
    see in the header of the email. Naturally, my brain went a little into overdrive about WHAT DOES IT MEAN? The other thing that was slightly odd was it’s SOP to include a certain distribution list on all emails about and this thread turned into the dance where he replies, so it gets left off, I reply and add it back in, rinse repeat. It’s common enough that people don’t reply all even when they should that I don’t really
    read too much into that, but the Personal thing added in threw me. It came across like maybe he were trying to say keep this between us, don’t count it toward the project, etc. The thing is, it very clearly is about the project
    and they don’t have fixed hours so it’s not as though this exchange would have any impact on billing or something else. I don’t know if maybe he thought he had a dumb question and didn’t want the rest of the team to see it? Like he’s asking me as a personal favor? But it still…isn’t one. It’s also possible he just toggled that as a default on his own email and isn’t doing it for any specific reason particular to this exchange. So I know I might be reading too much into it. It struck me as odd. So I’m wondering: does anyone use this feature in a work context and can you give an example of why you might?

  115. Kalliopesmom*

    I just have to say that I am fed up with this woman at our council office. Backstory – I took this job thinking I was going to do something else and now I am in charge of the office for a local union. Its fine, I love my job. What is frustrating is the council office that not only handles our funds but those of three other locals. Cool – i don’t have to do accounts or reporting. But there is a lady (using this term loosely) who has the title of admin, she is the former wife of the nephew of the president. Nepotism running a muck. I honestly think that her relation is the only reason she has the job. She lives in our housing (the trades), she drives our car and apparently she is my boss. UMMM no. I have a higher title and a degree. But I have noticed that she is unable to handle simple things – highlighting a pdf for pertinent information, informing our office of a package arrival, providing account information.
    So with the package she called me thirty seconds after she called my business managers cell and he didn’t answer. her: BM is not answering his phone and I can’t get a hold of him. Me: OK I will be glad to take a message. Her: So I have this box of shirts here, for about a week and unfortunately, did not tell BM when he was here earlier to take them. Me: Oh thank you, Instructor has been calling about those for a while. I will let BM know. I then go to his office and I state that I am not taking the blame for this delay. Instructor is going to be very upset but it was out of my hands. BM agrees she messed up.
    I called the council office to get the account number for our phones. Static and dropped calls. All I wanted was the account number since records are not kept in our office. two days later and so much back and forth, she calls and has different vendor on the line. I had to stifle my laughs. I didn’t know how to be clearer. I need the account number for phone provider, not other provider. I didn’t ask you to make the tech call as you do not understand the issue. How hard is it to just provide information. I am not stepping on your job in any way shape or form by requesting this information. Her president starts throwing a fit about how she is too busy to make the tech call – hello no one asked you to do that. Just give me the account number. My boss had me start a new file for all our accounts so we don’t have to contact them again for this information. Her president treats me like i am fresh out of high school and have never worked in a office. Sorry buddy, have 20 years experience and a degree but your girl over there is the one without a clue. I could run circles around her all day long. So over this, and if it wasn’t for the benefits, I would be moving on!!!! End rant – END NEPOTISM!!!!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m sorry, this sounds very frustrating. However I did notice you mentioned your degree twice and I’m not sure that’s as relevant as you’re making it – seniority is more relevant. So, is she your boss or not? If you’ve been told she is, then how does having a degree change that?

      Is it at all possible that you’re letting your frustration show in your communications with her and that may perhaps be fanning the flames a bit? It’s just that, from what you’ve written here, it sounds like you might be going in with quite an antagonistic manner – sorry if I’m wrong but it seemed worth saying. Have you tried asking nicely for things and using an AAM-style script e.g. “When packages arrive I need you to do X. Can you do that?”

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        I actually have a higher title than her. My contract doesn’t include her as a boss. I was very upset when I wrote this, all things had become more frustrating Friday. When she calls my office, I remain professional and pass messages along. Because she works for the council, the members are the only ones who can report her behavior. Which falls on deaf ears due to her relation with the president. The one and only time I asked for something to be done differently, she didn’t answer me just had the president say it’s not possible. But it was highlighting a pdf…which is possible…she by just doesn’t know how to do it.

  116. Book Cover*

    Does anyone here use SharePoint at work, especially in conjunction with Office365? I’m having a terrible time keeping up with it at work. The email notifications help, but it really is hard to read. All of our work assignments are assigned this way, and it’s causing problems. Do you have any suggestions for using it? We mostly use the discussion boards. I’m lowest on the totem pole, so I can’t change anything.

    1. Caledonia*

      We do!

      It isn’t very intuitive is it? We do have some discussion boards and info about various parts of our work (it’s cyclical) but we mainly use it instead of a mass email. So if Bob is sick or if a new process is implemented or an announcement about the Christmas party – its all on there.

  117. ChemMoose*

    I know I’m posting late, but I’m hoping to get some feedback. My husband is interviewing at the same company as me (but in a different department), and I’m looking for things we should/should not expect to do as co-workers who happen to be married.

    Thanks!

    2. Anono-me*

      Please, please, please don’t call him up to scream and cuss him out for not being ready to leave when you are. It is very disruptive to people with nearby desks. And based on what I have been hearing at least once a week for the past 6 years, it doesn’t work.

      Good luck to your husband.

    3. Observer*

      If you guys are into PDA, please leave that out of the workplace. In fact, leave everything but the most mundane personal stuff out of the workplace. (Eg “Oh, honey, are you going to pick up some eggs on the way home?” is ok but that’s about as far as it goes.)

  118. Mallory Janis Ian*

    Disclaimer: This is work-related insofar only as the apartment is practically ON the university campus where I work.

    I am dying because an apartment has come up for rent at the very edge of campus; I would be able to walk to work in three minutes. It is on a quiet side street that only dead-ends in a reserved faculty parking lot, so it is hardly traveled at all. It is sort of a duplex, except one apartment is on top and the other is on bottom. The top one is empty, and it is built on the side of a hill so that it feels like a single-family residence. The balcony faces into a stand of trees, and when you drive down the street opposite the trees, you can’t even tell there’s a house up there. I’m on a waiting list with however many other applicants there are, but I WANT IT SO BAD!

  119. SophieChotek*

    Cover Letter/Resumes/Job Descriptions

    So I have been reading about how your cover letter should discuss things not covered in your job description. So would you say that means not to mention anything in my cover letter that I have done/accomplished that is pertinent to the job for which I am applying, if is already covered in my achievements/job descriptions from my resume?

    Also, job descriptions often list essential functions and position qualifications. Since it would take 1-2 pages of choppy sentences just to explain why I think/I know I could do the essential job functions (i.e. data base management/prepare reports), I have been trying to use my cover letter to cover 2-3 of the position qualifications (i.e. detail oriented/excellent writing skills) and use illustrations (not found on my resume) to demonstrate how I have the qualifications.

    I know this is all nebulous without specific examples, but does this sound like the correct approach? (I’ve read all the AAM posts on resumes, and am currently working my way through all the AAM posts on cover letters.)

    1. Over educated*

      I do what you say in your third paragraph, use illustrations, and I think it’s good to mention select accomplishments on your resume in a way that fleshes them out or makes them part of a larger narrative. My resume has a large number of jobs, since I’ve done a lot of term and part time work, and it’s not obvious from my resume what my next job “should” be, so I use the cover letter to try to give a snapshot of my overall trajectory, what kind of worker I am, and how it relates to the job I’m applying for. The advice is more to avoid just restating your work history (“First I worked here and met qualifications a,b, and c, and then I worked there in the fields of x,y, and z).

    2. T3k*

      Yes, it appears to be. I used to do the ever classic “fresh out of college” thing where I’d just list my skills and that didn’t really get me anywhere. In the past half year, once I started to give examples of the “soft skills” I started getting more interviews. It sounds like your key issue though will be to parse your letter down, so perhaps think of examples that cover several of the bases (like I have one that shows I’m both tenacious and can learn things quickly).

  120. Curious*

    If an interviewee uses their question time to ask the interviewers a certain viral question about ducks and horses, how would that reflect on your opinion of their candidacy?

    2. fposte*

      Poorly. Unless you work at Know Your Meme. Oh, no, looks like it’s 5 years old there, so it would reflect poorly on them there too.

      That is not a good use of people’s time.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      I’d chuckle. Whether or not it reflected negatively on them or not would depend on whether the way they did it reinforced existing reservations I had about them.

  121. De Minimis*

    I don’t know if anyone posted about it here, but I found out last night that “Tiger” Mike Davis of the legendary “Tiger Oil” memos [popular with longtime readers here] passed away last fall. I haven’t been able to hang out here as much as I used to, so maybe it was posted here [there were a ton of obits in all the various news websites.] “World’s grumpiest boss…” etc. I don’t think I would have minded working for him, though.

    1. fposte*

      Aw, Tiger Mike. I don’t remember it being posted here–I didn’t hear about it. I’m with you in that I think I actually could have worked for him okay, assuming the pay was as good as he thought it was.

    2. Mallory Janis Ian*

      Just don’t expect him to waste his voice saying ‘hello’ to you sons-of-bitches. RIP, Tiger Mike.

  122. CareerChanger*

    I’m leaving my job soon to go back to school and there’s a chance my employer will want me to continue to do some work for them on a contract basis. This would be great because it would mean I have some income while I’m in school! But, I have no idea what to charge as an hourly rate. Does anyone have any advice on how to calculate a rate? Thanks!

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      A rule of thumb is double because you are responsible for all your taxes. Clients from Hell has some good reference posts.

  123. Asile*

    I hope you all will let me pick your brains a bit, since I haven’t interviewed in 6 years and I was actively job hunting at the time. I was contacted this week through LinkedIn for a new position that would heavily focus on one of my areas of expertise, but I haven’t really been looking to leave my current job.

    However, the job would be with a bigger company, a change in industry, and the potential for a $10k – $20k salary bump. It’s just focused on a part of my job I haven’t been thinking to pursue; recent talks with my boss have been about going in other directions.

    I’m about to schedule a phone screen with the recruiter for next week. What questions should I ask – and how do I ask them – to help determine if this could be a good move for me? The salary bump will be nice, but I also need to make sure the benefits are worth it (I specialize in employee benefits), and I REALLY need to make sure there’s advancement opportunity: I’m an administrator now and am ready for more, and although the job title is Analyst, the description looks like more admin work.

    What am I not thinking of? I’d hate to miss a good opportunity with a Fortune 500 company for fear of the unknown, especially when reading posts here helps me realize how good I actually have it. But this is a chance for career advancement I’m not getting with my current company.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Ask what the actual core responsibilities and deliverables are and how much opportunity there is for training?

  124. Bibliovore*

    I don’t know if this is a problem or not but yesterday’s benefit postings made me wonder.
    I don’t take vacation time.
    My position is an academic one, tenure track. When I am not working public service- reference etc, I am doing collection development. This is a publish or perish position. When I am not physically at work, I am writing, or prepping or creating digital materials. If I work on the weekend, I take comp time during the week. My University and manager are very generous with sick leave. I tried to apply for vacation time to go home when my mother died in May and my manager said no- that is bereavement leave. I can work from home when I am not needed at on site meetings or classes.
    We get 21 days and lose it after we reach the top. People often post that they are taking tomorrow off otherwise they will lose a vacation day, my supervisor included.
    The thing is- if I won the lotto today, I would still come to work on Monday. I’ve been in this job 6 years.
    I am flabbergasted about people who are getting 5 weeks vacation. How do they get their work done?
    This is not new- When I left my last job they replaced me with two people.

    There is nothing that I would rather be doing, I have no hobbies. (do dog snuggling and reading count?)

    I travel for work and don’t want to “go on vacation” anywhere.
    If I am home- there is always something work related, I could be doing.
    I read 4 books in 2 days when the WIFI was unavailable where I was staying last week.
    Oh, and we can’t give our vacation days away to another employee, I asked.

    1. fposte*

      That’s pretty common in academics, I think, especially those of us on twelve-month contracts with faculty expectations. It doesn’t feel like much point in taking a vacation day if you’re just doing the same work at home, and if you really love your work, it’s not necessarily unreasonable.

      A couple of howevers, however: the fact that you could always be doing something work related doesn’t mean you have to be. You will never attend all the conferences, read all the books, or write all the things; it’s perfectly reasonable to let your own structure and not just the hours in the day dictate the hard end of that. I’ve known academics–yes, even those not yet tenured–who have such structures in their workflow.

      The other is that, as somebody closer toward retirement, I’ve started to think about what retirement would look like. A lot of academics die in harness, and sometimes that’s fine and sometimes it’s because they don’t know what else to do with themselves, and sometimes they retire and have a tough time because of, again, not knowing what to do with themselves. That transition isn’t something that’s usually managed overnight and it goes better with a little practice, so at some point in your life that might be worth considering too.

    2. over educated*

      Do you take any days off over the holidays or campus closures? For instance, the Friday after Thanksgiving, the week between Christmas and New Year’s, any Jewish holidays if you celebrate them? Those are days that most of my faculty friends don’t “count” as vacation, but I have to use vacation days for all of them and that takes up one of my weeks of leave right there. Or do you ever take your work with you to go visit family, or take a few hours or even a weekend for sightseeing on to a work trip? Those are things that I think my academic friends describe as “working all the time,” but from the perspective of someone who’s left academia, I see as “perks of being able to work anywhere/go cool places without having to use vacation time for the travel days.” People in my current workplace are also limited to one conference per year, so if they want to go to others, they have to take personal vacation time for it.

      Not saying you don’t work hard – one of the big reasons I left academia is that I hated the pressure of “publish or perish” and grant applications – but I think having more porous boundaries between work and life can reduce the need to take official vacation days. I’ve never had 5 weeks though so I can’t speak to that challenge!

    3. Kathenus*

      I’m getting the impression you’re pretty comfortable with your work-life approach, so I’m not going to address that part. But maybe consider if you’re going to lose time off, to do what your colleagues and supervisor have done regarding taking the day(s) so you don’t lose them. If you just can’t, or don’t want to, take the whole day(s) for non-work things, doing some work in between dog-snuggling and reading still sounds like a nice change of pace!

      1. Bibliovore*

        I like the phrase that my work/life is porous. I am going try to schedule vacation 1/2 days for just reading once a week to see if I can use some time in a stress reducing way.

  125. EE Lady*

    My drunk uncle once imparted to me this dubious wisdom: “A good manager sets things up so he doesn’t have to be in the office – things run just as well without him there as when he’s there.” What other questionable management advice have folks here been given?

    1. beanie beans*

      “Loose lips sink ships” was put into writing as management guidance when a new director took over our group. :/

  126. Nervous applicant*

    Asking about hours. How do you do it in a way that doesn’t turn off your interviewers or make you look lazy? For instance, in my first interview, the hiring manager mentioned that they work a lot of night and weekend events and asked if I am okay with that. I am fine with it as long as I’m still generally working around 40-45 hours a week, and flexing my hours at other times, but if the expectation is that it’s all overtime on top of a standard full time schedule, I’d be much less eager to take the job. It also depends how often night and weekend work occurs – I’d be more willing to sign on for overtime once a month than three times a week. How can I ask about these things to get a clear idea of the expectations and structure of the job without making myself look unwilling to work hard and be flexible?

    1. beanie beans*

      I had this come up in an interview this past spring – When it was my turn to ask questions, I said that work-life balance is really important to me (I know, it’s becoming such a cliche phrase, but it is what it is), and that while I work hard while I’m at work, I also want to know going into the job what the expectations will be around evening and weekend events – how do you (the company) manage or support this balance?

      Seems like there’s a way for you to ask the question about what they will expect and still be open about what YOU expect.

      I didn’t get the job, though, so maybe I’m not the best person to offer suggestions. Heh.

      1. Nervous applicant*

        Yeah, I had a friend get burned after using similar phrasing. She had just come out of almost a year of working tons of nights and weekends, and said she was looking for more work-life balance and wanted to know what the general expectations around hours would be. They actually gave her feedback that because of that question, they saw her as lacking in enthusiasm and rejected her. Hence the nervousness.

        2. Bwahnonymous*

          I hit “enter” too early. I’ve had two separate jobs in two separate industries where I wish I would have asked about actual work hours instead of “official” work hours. I didn’t ask, because I wanted to appear committed and hardworking, and I got burned at both jobs. Salaried positions, 60-80 hour weeks, no going out for lunch without getting yelled at, no eating lunch without getting yelled at, no going to the doctor or calling in sick without being called in to discuss work ethic with the bosses… I wasted a lot of years because I was afraid of being perceived as not hard-working.

          Ask about how the employer ensures their employees have a good work-life balance. Ask the employer what kind of hours most of their employees work and why. Interview them back. Unless you’re absolutely desperate and must have a job right now or you’ll lose your house/car/etc, ask the questions. If they see you as lazy and not hard working, then good, you have dodged a very nasty bullet. I think your friend did.

          (I started asking about work-life balance, and now I have a boss who practically shoves me out the door when it’s time to leave, never asks why I’m going out for lunch, doesn’t bother me when I’m eating, and just this Monday asked me why I was even asking if I could leave early to go to the doctor – “that’s the kind of thing that you just go and do. Send me an email or something.”)

      2. Kathenus*

        I think beanie beans is spot on with how to ask about work-life balance – yes it’s a cliche phrase right now but that’s actually a good thing because it’s very normal to ask about it.

        The other thing to keep in mind is the reminder of an interview being a two-way process. If you ask questions or give information on how much evening/weekend/OT you’re interested in/willing to do and the job requires more than that, you wouldn’t likely be happy in that position so not getting a job if you’re honest about this is a good thing. Unless you’re desperately in need of any job, it’s usually better to wait and hope to get the right one.

  127. DecisionsToMake*

    I’m about to put my two weeks in and I’m struggling on whether or not to tell my work crush about how I feel. I believe in the don’t eat where you poo, so never approached them. Even though there was no conflict of interest as they worked in another division at another location and neither one of us played a supervisory role for each other. Now that I’m leaving the company, I feel like I need to say something and if I don’t, I’ll regret it. I know that our paths will more than likely not cross again in the future, so I’m not too worried about having it be awkward. Has anyone told a work crush how they felt when they left a job?

    1. The IT Manager*

      I have not. I’m curious about your wording. You don’t have to tell someone you have a crush or have been carrying a torch. I think you should just ask them out on a date. It’s kind of semantics but also kind of not. I have a crush on you seems me direct and riskier than asking someone out on a date even though asking someone out on a date implies that you’re interested in them.

      “I will be leaving the company soon and I’m wondering if you would lie to go out with me for dinner sometime?”

      1. DecisionsToMake*

        That makes more sense, since ultimately that’s what I want. A date. Why be elementary about it and just ask them out? The best possible outcome definitely outweighs the worst outcome which is getting a no from someone that I’ll never see again. Thanks for this!

        1. JennyFair*

          IME, getting a firm no is actually not the worst outcome. The worst outcome is not knowing what the answer would be. YMMV, of course, but if there aren’t compelling reasons not to (such as he’s your boss), a casual invitation can be a very good course of action.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        I know it’s just a typo but I did laugh at the thought of asking them to lie to go out with you.

  128. Sunny Locations - All Expenses Paid!*

    I left the Army a little over two years ago and currently have a great job doing what I want to be doing as a career. Through this job I’m receiving some exceptional benefits, which have included paying for me to go back and get my masters.

    I’m still a Reservist (individual ready reserve, which means I don’t drill every weekend) and was recently asked if I would be interested in deploying. At this point it’s an ask. The unit knows I have a particular background and they’re looking for someone in a particular role. However, there are plenty of people who could fill that role and it doesn’t necessarily have to be me. I’m just a good fit. I would be gone for a year.

    I want to go because I still feel an attachment to that life and think it’s a very worthwhile thing to do. However, my civilian job is my career now. I’m worried that disappearing for a year at this point in my career is a bad idea. Even though my company is very military friendly and it’s one of those things no one can (technically) punish you for, there’s still the fact that I’m a relatively new employee who just received a huge benefit. I would be gone for a year in a field where things can change a lot during that timeframe.

    Thoughts?

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      I’m in a large financial company. We have a person who has been deployed for three separate one year terms in the last 8-10 years. Everyone adjusts.

    2. Anono-me*

      4 Questions

      If you do not take the military position now, will it come open again in a year? If so would the timing be better then?

      What impact will taking the military position have on your degree program. I know the school will work with you, but there can be logistics issues that are hard to overcome. Also, school break brain drain is real.

      How will taking the military position impact your budget?

      I read your post as you want to take the military position, but not really. You say taking the position is voluntary. It is okay not to volunteer if you don’t want to.

  129. KatieKate*

    Asked my boss this about the title upgrade he promised for a year in when I started. He said he wouldn’t want to give me a title change without a raise (great!) but didn’t budget it in for this fiscal year. Our budgets were due in February.

    Should I have asked about this earlier? I didn’t even expect a raise this early (we are a stingy non profit) and would have been happy with just the title change. Not really sure how I should approach this because I don’t know if I am going to be around for another year past this one, so I’d like the title upgrade anyway. But it seemed like he didn’t want to do one without the other. Arg

    1. Chaordic One*

      The situation sucks. You’re not desperate to find a new job, but it doesn’t hurt to start looking. If you don’t find anything better, it’s no loss.

  130. Anonymous here*

    I work in international ed and my team is fortunate enough to be able to perform site visits to various countries. Up until last year, we were able to take vacation time while we were still abroad (after the week of visiting partners and programs). This was, of course, a huge perk that did not cost the department any additional funding, as we paid for all of our vacation expenses out-of-pocket once we arrived on site. Everyone was very careful to create a clear division between the week of work and the vacation days and treat the time as such. Coverage back in the office is also not an issue.

    However, after reviewing how much funding we spend on professional development, the department has chosen to disallow this use of vacation time. No changes were made to how much funding is allotted to professional development and visits abroad, so based on the wording of the conversation I have to assume it was to avoid the optics of paying to fly employees out for vacation, even though in practice this change doesn’t affect the budget at all. It also hasn’t affected how we behave on-site during that work week; our accomplishments abroad (forging new connections, in-depth program review, etc) are often met with praise.

    Other departments that let their staff take vacation after site visits have not changed their policy; this is specific to our office.

    Is this policy reasonable to push back on? On the one hand, I selfishly really miss this perk and I can’t figure out how it practically affects the budget or how the office is run. On the other hand, it’s possible my boss is right and it looks really bad for us to take vacation abroad right after a work trip.

    2. fposte*

      Can you ask your boss about the thought process behind the change rather than just pushing back on it?

    3. Dankar*

      I think you’re right that this is about appearances. Our international ed department ran into something similar, and that ended with rolling back some policies. Hilariously, we were also told we couldn’t have Starbucks coffee while at work because other departments thought it looked bad that we had a shared coffee fund. *sigh*

      In your case, though, I think it might be worth it to check in with your boss about why you’re changing the policy when other offices are continuing with it. You could also make the argument that site visits are much more taxing than typical work weeks, since you’re essentially scheduled for the full day while you’re visiting campuses (at least in my experience) and that it’s likely people will want time to recuperate after that week regardless.

  131. AJJLC*

    Just some good news! Earlier this week, I landed my first job out of college at a startup and it seems really great — great pay, incredible benefits and a super welcoming, accommodating culture. I owe it largely in part to Alison and the incredible culture in the comments section here (seriously, how often can you say that?). Thank you everyone!

  132. Kat*

    Yesterday I got some feedback from my boss that basically, no one at work likes me and is afraid to tell me anything. I feel completely blindsided by this and really, really hurt. I don’t really doubt that it is true, as in previous jobs I’ve received feedback about people finding me intimidating and don’t think I like them, but because of that I thought I had made a lot of changes and had really been making a much bigger effort at this job to counteract those things.

    The ‘find you intimidating’ is the most difficult for me, because no one has ever been able to articulate what exactly gives off that vibe, so I am at such a loss at how to change that. I’ve repeatedly told people I’m open to anything they want to talk about, I am always willing to at least try out ideas others bring up to me, I try to make sure I’m smiling and joke back with people and keep things casual, I’ve tried to turn orders into ‘would you please when you get a moment thank you’ (which honestly I HATE), I try to show interest in my employee’s lives, I stay late and come in early to help out if things have gotten more difficult, I schedule around second jobs and give the shift times they’ve said they prefer, I try to do nice things like bring in food or give bonuses for exceptional work.

    We have one employee quitting who told me it was because they were bored at this job and tired of this specific kind of work, which felt a little off to me, and then told my boss that they were leaving because the job wasn’t fun any more, they didn’t like the shifts they were scheduled (that they asked for), they didn’t feel like I listened to them (they … didn’t actually tell me about any of these concerns? I’m not a mind reader), and they were tired of me and another coworker bickering (??? I literally cannot think of a single time coworker and I have fought about something.) My boss decided to talk to everyone else after that and everyone else had things to say about how they don’t think I like them, and they don’t really like being around me.

    I realize I’m probably taking this way too personally, but I feel incredibly betrayed and like an absolute idiot for not seeing that everyone hates me, and for feeling like I was being a good manager, and I don’t know at all what to do right now. I went home and cried for ages, and now in about half an hour I have to go to work knowing everyone there dislikes me and thinks I’m awful.

    1. IsobelDeBrujah*

      I have gotten this in the past and I generally ignore it now for two reasons.

      1. I am femme and it is REALLY gendered feedback. I have been in situations wherein I mirror my male bosses and coworkers phrases and attitudes but because of m gender I am seen as aggressive. I’m Black so that makes the perception of aggression worse.

      2. “People don’t like you,” is almost always an attempt at emotional manipulation. It’s not real feedback. Real feedback contains actionable items such as “when your team with a conflict and you snap at them, they are less likely to come to your with a conflict. In the future, you need to respond to requests for help in a more open manner.” That’s a real criticism and a real action item.

      If you have self assessed in response to this type of feedback and you are confident that you are doing everything reasonable to be professional and cordial, then I would return to my manager and ask them what specific action items they think I need to work on. That makes it clear that you are willing to make real changes but won’t be manipulated into lowering your standards.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Exactly this. “People don’t like you” is something sixth-grade bullies say. Grown-up bosses who want to give real feedback say concrete things, like “When you explain a new task to someone having trouble, you need to avoid rolling your eyes.”

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Ugh, I’m really sorry about this. Getting this kind of vague feedback that feels like it’s about who you are as a person feedback is so, so tough.

      So, a couple of thoughts. First, it sounds like you’ve gotten feedback on this in the past, so there is some consistent thing that isn’t resonating with people. On the one hand, this feels icky; on the other hand, it means that it’s not just an idiosyncratic thing about your relationships in this office — i.e., if you can identify it, it’s fixable! Second, it sounds like you are taking this really seriously and humbly, even though it’s painful. Your writing comes across as very sincere — I was honestly surprised to get to your second line find out what the issue was! This is a huge benefit to you that you seem to take seriously the possibility that there is something you can change, and want to change it if reasonable.

      What’s really tough here is that the people involved don’t seem to be able to articulate what that thing is. I wonder if you might be able to set up a structure for some specific feedback. Could you maybe ask your boss to observe you in your next several team meetings, and provide focused feedback on each one, on how you communicate, what vibe you give off, how people are responding to you? I wonder if you could also get some kind of management coaching. Someone with a different vantage point might be able to coach you better on how you can show up differently in this specific circumstance.

      Again, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! I also appreciate how you’re approaching it. I hope you’re able to get some good feedback and support so you can better understand and process the issue.

      1. Kathenus*

        Great feedback. I’ve had to work hard on sometimes vague negative feedback in the past – lacking tact, being perceived as pushy or abrasive, etc. One concrete example was poor listening skills and interrupting. One thing that really helped me was to put myself out there with my teams and my peers, along the lines of “I’m committed to trying to improve in these areas, and would really appreciate your help in pointing out specific instances when I could have used a better approach or handled a situation in a more positive way”. Then reiterate this at times – if team meetings are an area that have been pointed out as an area where these tendencies come out, repeating this before and/or after meetings to really show people that you want feedback and are committed to improving.

        I also semi-jokingly tell people that they can give me feedback in person, by email, anonymously with cut out letters on a piece of paper like an old-style ransom note, carrier pigeon, etc. which has seemed to both lighten the topic and give people options to anonymously give feedback if they aren’t comfortable doing so. And if/when you receive it, simply take it with a thanks. Don’t try to explain why you acted the way you did. Just take it, reflect upon it later, and then maybe follow up later with more information to the person or group if needed.

        What’s most important, though, is to begin internalizing the feedback and making slow, small steps towards addressing the concerns. My pattern was ‘do annoying thing, get feedback’; progressing to ‘do annoying thing, realize it myself, and acknowledge that I did it after the fact’; then to ‘do annoying thing, realize it in the moment, acknowledge and fix it in real-time’; and finally, hopefully, to ‘begin avoiding doing the annoying thing and build new habits’.

        Not easy, but chance can happen if you’re committed and willing, which it sounds like you are.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      See, the trick is to assume everyone hates you and then you’re never blindsided. In serious, it’s not a good approach, but it was one I was prone to use socially most of my life.

      I’m not an intimidating person, but I work with a couple women who are. Sometimes, they are really wrong in their behavior, and sometimes they are just being taken the wrong way. What I see help is letting people know in advance. Say something like, “Hey, sometimes I come off like I’m mean, but really I’m just very direct and I’m trying to work on it. Let me know if I’m ever overstepping with you.” If people know you know, it’s easier to deal with you and to say something to you.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        Essentially this. I’m quiet and analytical, but my job is creative in a technical department. Because I work with a bunch of technical people and have to explain how I want the teapots to look when they’re manufactured (no, that’s the wrong shade of blue, Bob), I have to speak their lingo. When I know they’re trying to bs me, I make them explain. As one of the only females (and a youngish one to boot), it’s probably a bit intimidating. To top it off, I also have to tell them when they made the teapots wrong and that they need to be fixed (still the wrong blue, Bob. Also, you attached the handle where the lid goes). So I just assume that they all hate me because I tell them when they’re wrong — it makes my life easier.

        I can get by with shorthand because the manufacturers I work with generally don’t want their hands held. For you, it might be different. When I have to talk with the sales people, I have to switch mental gears and be nicer.

        1. MechanicalPencil*

          Eh, maybe less direct is better than nicer — it’s been quite a day here at the teapot plant.

    4. Bwahnonymous*

      “I’ve tried to turn orders into ‘would you please when you get a moment thank you’ (which honestly I HATE),”

      This is it, IMO. This is all of it.

      I was a manager for a long time, and when I tried to turn things into “orders” and “get it done now” type of requests, I absolutely failed. When I said to my people, “Hey, we’ve gotta get A, B, and C done today. Betty, would you please reset the endcap in Aisle 8? Alex, I know you’ve got all these price changes, so, when you get a moment before the end of the day, refill the Teapot wall in Housewares. George, please get Vendor on the phone and get them in here NOW; let me know if you get push back. I’ll be over in X doing ABC if you need me.
      Thanks, guys.” – BOOM. Done. I heard from a lot of other employees with a lot of managers the same thing: they hated the managers who just told them what to do and how to do it and right now do it with never one “thank you” in between.

    5. Princess Carolyn*

      Keep reminding yourself that this is criticism of what you’re doing, not who you are. It’s very easy to take this kind of feedback personally, but it’s also crucial that you fight that urge. Here are some general suggestions to soften your image. Maybe some will help.

      1. Say “thank you,” even when someone’s just doing their job.
      2. Look for opportunities to praise people. If it feels like too much, it’s probably just enough.
      3. Look for opportunities to ask people what they think about a specific thing. It’s easier to respond to “Katie, what do you think?” or “Eric, which option works better for you?” than it is to bring something up without prompting.
      4. When something doesn’t hit the mark, look for something you like about it before you explain why it won’t work/isn’t good.
      5. If you run into a specific instance where you find out someone was afraid to bring something up with you, ask that person about it. Say something like “Tom, was there a reason you didn’t feel comfortable alerting me to the teapot situation? I’m happy to help with these things but I’m getting the feeling that you prefer not to bring me in on this. What’s going on there?”

      A lot of people who are perceived as “cold” or “intimidating” simply have different ideas of what needs to be articulated and what goes without saying. The feedback you’re getting isn’t that you’re not nice, it’s that you need to be more forthcoming with praise, encouragement, and positivity. What you think is forced or trying to hard is probably close to what everyone else thinks is just right.

    6. LibKae*

      One thing I have to admit that I wondered when I read this was if you’ve gotten that “can’t talk to her” vibe off of anyone you’re currently supervising other than the person who left? This is not in any way to ascribe intentionally sabotaging behaviour to your boss, but there’s a big difference between the questions “Tell me what you think about Kat’s management style” and “X and Y told me they don’t like Kat; how do you feel?”. We’re often herd animals, and if your boss’ boss gives you a leading question sometimes it can skew the results.

      (I know you’ve heard similar feedback before, so I’m not saying to discount it completely, but I’m also saying to check what your gut is saying on what you’ve witnessed in your team. If I was asked the second version of the above question about my boss, I might acknowledge some of the reasons X and Y could dislike her and then follow it up about the things I do like — which, depending on the person asking could be filtered down to “now X, Y, and LibKae have all said they don’t like her!)

    7. LCL*

      For my experience, I want to echo some of what IsobelDeBrujah said. I’m not a POC, and not claiming my experience is the same as hers, but her points it being really gendered feedback and an attempt at emotional manipulation are absolutely right.

      If your manner or presentation is outside the traditional feminine, sometimes you will have problems of this type.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Do you like them?
      Start there.
      If you have not decided whether you like them or not, you need to decide very soon.

      We are all aware that it shows when a boss dislikes a person or people.

      What is not so obvious is that if we are UNdecided, that comes across as not liking people, too.
      Hurry up, decide that you like them. Find something about each one that you admire.

      OTH, going the very opposite way, I was told that everyone hated me. The reality is that everyone actually hate the person who told me this. But anyway, I simply said, “I did not come here to make BFFs” and I shrugged it off.
      They did not hate me, they just did not want me as a friend and I was okay with that. One person said that I could be her boss any day, she thought I would be great to work for. As friends we probably would not have had a lot in common, so it was more lack of shared interests than anything.

  133. anycat*

    tips on talking to your boss about an opportunity on your team that’s come up? i’ve been here 6 months and have about 4 years experience in my current role. a position on our team has opened up that would give me the ability to learn some new skills while still being able to be mentored and coached from current boss.

    how do i go about doing this without sounding like a jumper? the team management is extremely supportive of me “applying” and potentially making this move.. but i need to tell my boss first. we do have a good working relationship, are extremely transparent and honest with each other .. but i am afraid they will flip out.

    1. fposte*

      Is your concern that the move seems premature? I think going out hunting at six months might be premature but noticing an opening on your own team is perfectly legitimate. “Boss, I know I haven’t been here long, I’m really interested in the Teapot Lidmeister position that’s opened up. If you don’t think now is the time for that, could we talk about what steps I could take to grow toward it for the future?”

      1. anycat*

        i guess i’m more concerned that if it doesn’t pan out boss will have an adverse reaction and our relationship will be wonky going forward. they are very passionate, straightforward, no bs and will tell you exactly what they think.

  134. licoricepencil*

    I’m not sure if this is a good question to ask but throwing it out there anyway.

    My boyfriend passed his bar in two states last year, but he hasn’t succeeded in getting any job offers. He’s been trying to network, but unfortunately the areas of law that he’s most interested in (nonprofit, veterans, small town) don’t seem to have any positions open. On top of this, he’d like to relocate to where I am so that we’re no longer long distance, but my location has an even tougher job market for legal jobs. (He’s not explicitly barred in my city, but he’s looked into it and his states have reciprocity so he could waive in if he had an offer of employment.)

    Since it’s been a year since he’s been barred, he’s now having to compete with newly barred attourneys who just graduated, and he doesn’t consider himself to be a strong applicant to begin with. He’s considered trying to find another career field, but A. he then has to explain what he did for three years after college and his J.D. makes him overqualified for many positions, B. he has no idea where to look, and C. he has six figures of student loans to pay off.

    My field is completely different from law, but I want to help him find something, whether in his current location or mine, because he’s feeling really demoralized about his job search. If there are any lawyers or J.D. havers here who’ve been in his shoes and could give some advice about what to do, that would be wonderful!

      1. licoricepencil*

        He’s gone on a couple of informational interviews both in his hometown and in my area. He’s also reached out to lawyers that he knows and done various things as part of his CLEs. I’ve tried encouraging him to go back to the ones that he first talked to a year ago, but he feels like since they’re retiring, they won’t be much help when he tells them he hasn’t done too much lawyering since speaking with them.

        1. neverjaunty*

          He needs to really network, and by that, I mean he needs to build up his circle of contacts. Right now very few lawyers know him. Is he a member of bar associations? Not the ABA, but local and state organizations where he wants to practice, and groups relating to the kind of law he wants to practice. Has he done any pro bono or volunteer work, which can be done under the supervision of a licensed attorney in most instances?

          I don’t know why he doesn’t consider himself to be a strong applicant; is it that he really doesn’t want to practice law but now he has a JD and feels stuck?

          1. licoricepencil*

            He’s done a couple of pro bono things, and he worked at a veteran’s clinic his summer after 2L year.

            You hit the nail on the head in your last sentence. He discovered that he really doesn’t like law unless he’s doing something that’s really helping people (like his work at the veteran’s clinic), but he didn’t have a great GPA in law school and the clinic is the majority of his legal background, other than a couple of volunteer review things for local community organizations and for people he knows through church. I’m not sure if he’s looked into the state and local organizations like you’ve mentioned. I can check if he has.

            1. neverjaunty*

              If he likes law work that is really helping people, he can pursue those jobs; there are some avenues for public-interest lawyers to get loan deferrals and loan forgiveness after a certain time. His law school career office should be able to point him towards those resources. And there are lots and lots of professional organizations for people in ‘helping law’ – the veteran’s clinic can probably assist him there, and put him in touch with senior attorneys who have been down that road.

              Honestly, he should also look at the big picture: he went through three years of law school (and a bar exam, it sounds like?) before deciding maybe that’s not what he wants to do after all. If it’s just that the kind of law he likes doesn’t pay the big bucks, well, not everybody can or should work in BigLaw (which is a horrible work environment anyway), and there may be ways for him to manage to do the kind of work he truly enjoys. We need more lawyers who are willing to do that! BUT – if this is something where he went to law school because he didn’t know what else to do and kinda doesn’t like it, wandering off into something else he might like better is not a solution.

  135. Shuri*

    I’m in my early 20s and just got accepted into an Americorps initiative (think VISTA or State/National, not NCCC) Before now I’ve basically had customer service jobs and casual volunteer experience. I’ve never had anything close to a business trip, and due to my background I’ve never stayed in a hotel. I have an upcoming training conference soon where the non-profit I’m in service with pays everything, including valet parking. We stay five days and four nights, it’s in a very nice are a downtown, etc.

    Before this I was unemployed for several months. I just got out of the hospital too. My savings are pretty much gone. (Think broke college student.) I have enough for gas and that’s it until I get my first living stipend and apply for a second job. However, I’ve read you have to tip the valets whenever you drop off/pick up your car, housekeeping every night you stay in a room, etc. I know people often say if you can’t afford to tip, don’t go out to eat or anywhere else where you must tip. The training, however, is mandatory. I can’t not go, but I don’t want to be That Person who doesn’t tip. Are my assumptions off here?

    1. Ell the Bell*

      Can you talk to the organization you are attending this training for about an advance? If you are able to explain the situation, they may be able to advance you some of your stipend to help with these costs. It may be that you need to eat peanut butter and jelly for some meals if possible to save enough for tips and still feed yourself, but it might be worth it.

      Also, see if the hotel has self-park and avoid valet. For housekeeping, I was taught $1 a day per person, so you’d only really need to tip $5 at the end. For eating out, choose cheaper meals, drink water and that will keep the tip amount down. Or better yet, eat at quick casual places so you don’t have the full-service.

      1. Shuri*

        Hey, thanks for the response! They’re supposed to send a follow up email to everyone Monday with more details. I’ll ask the coordinator after I receive the email if they don’t address tipping.

        I don’t think I can get an advance because Americorps has strict guidelines about their stipends. They don’t pay a living allowance until your service starts, which doesn’t start until the first day of training. Re: parking, unfortunately the hotel doesn’t offer self parking at all. There’s something weird about downtown parking ordinances in the city, or something like that.

        Thank you for telling me how much to expect as well. It’s a nice hotel used often for conferences and people in town for events, and it’s also an overflow for the city’s convention center. I just didn’t want to seem cheap or anything.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Tips on business travel are kindof a crappy thing. I’ve never been reimbursed for tips to valet parkers or housekeeping (because there is no way to get a receipt). So this may be a lost cause, in which case I think you can ethically not tip (I’m guessing you legitimately cannot afford to tip; you are not choosing to be in the situation that requires you to tip; you are also making much less than the folks in those roles).

          That being said, talk to your organization about using petty cash for trips. It’s not an advance and shouldn’t run into any problems with AmeriCorps. They aren’t giving you money; they are allowing you to spend the organization’s money on the organization’s business.

          As for tipping standards: $1/day is too low for housekeeping. You should be tipping at least $2/night, but up to $5 isn’t unreasonable (especially in an upscale hotel). You should leave the tip each night, not just a total tip on the last night, because different people may be cleaning your room each day. For valet, $2-$3 each time they collect your car for you is appropriate.

    2. It happens*

      I hope they cover tripping in the email you are expecting next week. And if they don’t, you should ask. As well, there are ways to keep the expenses down by leaving a do not disturb sign on your door (so no one will have to clean your room until you leave) and not taking the car out until you leave by walking to the class or carpooling with another people in your group, then you will only tip one time for each of the services.
      It’s great that you’re thinking ahead and know that you tip, not everyone does. Have a great year with Americorps.

  136. Long Term Planner*

    My partner and I are hoping to move from our mid-size New England city (about 2/3 hours away) to New York City. Our timeline is as soon as next summer/spring or as late as three years from now depending on jobs/grad school/etc.

    I can’t decide if we live close enough to the city that we won’t need (or really be benefited) from having a local address, or if it would still be recommended? For what it’s worth, sister in law and brother in law live in the city and I think they will let us use their address when the time comes. But I know having a better explanation on why this isn’t an usual practice, as well as what to say if we’re asked at a interview what to say will help ease partner’s mind.

  137. Lemon Zinger*

    Any suggestions for writing an “office/role norms” handbook from scratch? My dreadful work partner is leaving this month. Her time here has been fraught with oversharing, inappropriate attire, slow development, and resistance to major aspects of our job. The woman who occupied her position previously was almost the exact opposite, to the extreme: hostile toward anyone who acted friendly to her, bad communication skills, and no willingness to help colleagues.

    I am hoping to make some kind of guide for the new hire that will make our team norms clear. While we are all professional and focused on our jobs, it helps to be friendly and courteous to others because our team thrives on being collaborative and helpful to one another. Because my boss works offsite and leaves most training to me or a manager who works onsite, I’d love to have some formal wording and expectations on paper.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Anlyn*

      Brainstorm. Throw out everything you want to have in it without regards to structure or format. Small paragraphs so they’re easier to read. Then once you have it all out there and you’re ready, you can start putting it together in a cohesive manner.

      Google office handbooks and look for examples. You’ll probably only get generic stuff (as you should), but it should give you an idea of how to put it together. Look for several different types so you can create it in a way that suits your company best. Some handbooks are really structured, others are more loose.

    2. caledonia*

      Our one has the basics such as what your phone number is, your line manager/team leader, structure of the office, a phone list and office plan of who sits where, your email address. It then has office norms such as dress code/annual leave/how to call in sick etc
      It then has how to’s of what our systems are (screenshots), acronym guide (it’s higher ed I work we have loads) and so on.
      I also like how for each one the front page is personalised so mine says “Induction Guide, Caledonia, month I started in” and a standard welcome letter from big boss.
      There is also a robust, intense shadowing/induction period where new start shadows each staff member/gets shown various aspects of the job “on the job”.

    3. curmudgeon*

      Done this many times.
      Think of “What I wished I had been told when I started” and start with that.
      Sure, the basics – staff numbers, emergency procedures, logins/passwords, who to contact when the computer goes down, what to wear, etc etc. Add in some how to’s/where equipment is located (postage machine? photocopier? fax?).
      When is lunch, do you go together, does everyone just eat whenever? Is there a “water-cooler” time to share & be social?
      Asking each other for help/sharing the workload.
      Dress code. Be specific.

  138. LibKae*

    Long shot question — is there anyone who could recommend either a business lawyer or accountant experienced with business structure who is based in the eastern part of the West Virginia panhandle? (Think: Martinsburg, Harper’s Ferry, Romney)

    I’m trying to change my business structure and would much rather do it through a professional than to flail through the forms myself (and possibly make a mistake).

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Check Yelp! It’s a good way at finding lawyers local to you, and you can search for specifics like “business structure lawyer.”

      1. LibKae*

        I did, but apparently the towns are too small to have warranted any reviews. I’m trying really hard to not just start going through the yellowpages, but I’m getting close

        1. neverjaunty*

          Don’t go through the yellow pages! Check with your county bar association – they should be able to refer you to a lawyer who specializes in this.

  139. Subriel*

    I interviewed today for a position for which I was laughably unqualified. I know there is no way in the world I would accept this position (I wouldn’t know what to do!). I would ordinarily think that I wouldn’t need to spell out to them that I am not the right candidate but they continued the interview, asking about timelines, salary requirements, and references. I should have interrupted them and ended it in the moment but I was so flabbergasted by what they were asking me to do. Do I contact them and rescind my candidacy or just decline if they offer a job?

    1. Rincat*

      I would withdraw your candidacy. You can mention something about how you feel underqualified for it because of reasons X, Y, Z. If they come back and say, oh no we actually need someone with skills in A, B, C, that might give you better insight into why they were asking about timelines and references. If not, then it frees them up to consider other people that would be better suited.

      1. De Minimis*

        I agree, if they do end up offering a job you may be tempted to accept anyway, and could end up in a position that isn’t right for you.

      2. Subriel*

        Thank you. This was my initial thought but I didn’t want to seem presumptuous about whether or not they would consider me. This could be the weird company who asks all the followup questions regardless of likelihood of hiring.

        1. De Minimis*

          I know for me in the past I’ve been offered jobs that weren’t right for me for one reason or another, and I’ve always really had to fight the urge to accept it anyway. Sometimes I did accept, much to my regret! It’s really hard to overcome the good feelings that you get with a job offer, at least it is for me.

          1. Julianne*

            A coworker who I’m work-friendly with just accepted a new position at our employer that she’s not at all qualified for, and I’m a little stressed about it – both because it could potentially cause some significant inconveniences for my team, and because I like her as a person and don’t want to see others develop bad feelings towards her. :(

          2. Subriel*

            This is such a legitimate fear of mine! I am afraid I would say yes in the moment even though I am not qualified and the salary is $20,000 below what I require. Thanks!

        2. Rincat*

          I don’t think it’s presumptuous at all. It just means you’ve learned this particular job isn’t the right fit for you.

          They could also be one of those companies. I know my last boss would always ask about timelines and salary for everyone, even if we knew five seconds in we weren’t going to hire them, because he was sort on auto pilot when interviewing.

    2. Stranger than fiction*

      Are you sure they weren’t just using big words and overly jargony ways to describe the job?
      That’s happened to me before, and then I get on the job and was like “oh, that’s all they meant by X? we called it x at ex job, this is easy”.

      1. Subriel*

        I wish that was the case. The job description asked for a specific skill set (instructional design) but in the interview when I asked what design tools they use, they replied that they don’t. They essentially want more coding expertise than what I have experience doing. I know enough to properly publish courses, troubleshoot problems, and add occasional interactions but not enough to build an entire course from scratch. All of the other positions I have had prior to this (7+ years) have used authoring tools. I would not have applied if they had bothered to mention that expectation in the job description.

  140. Anonforthis*

    I don’t know what it is about where I work but for the second time, a lazy co-worker is going to be out on sick leave for a month or more. We actually had a good luck lunch for him today which I was loathe to attend because I really can’t stand him. His being out means more work for us, not that he did much anyway but it still puts a crimp in our schedules. I’m just venting, don’t want any suggestions, it’s just frustrating that the people who kill themselves at work do so for years are stuck when someone who does the least ends up with these mysterious illnesses (never got an actual diagnosis for the last one, and he was fired for a security breach). And what is interesting is that he talks to no one, and yet everyone is fawning over him now… I wish him well, but it’s just hard to put any feeling behind it because I really don’t like him at all.

    1. Mononymous*

      That sounds really frustrating and I’m sorry you’re dealing with the increased workload, but I’d like to gently push back on the “mysterious illness”/no diagnosis bit. That’s not really something coworkers are entitled to know.

      1. Anonforthis*

        Well, he talked about how his doctors could not figure it out, and his symptom was a mysterious elevation in his temperature (not a true fever), but he was still out of work for 6 months, and when he returned gleefully told us all that he could still take his vacation time whenever he wanted. What was also interesting was that the last 10 years he worked here, his father drove him to work because driving gave him vertigo. Once fired, he started driving and has been ever since…. I really think it’s the environment here, it’s really dysfunctional and affects everyone differently. Some can rise above it and do stellar work and others can’t (or don’t).

  141. LibrarianCV*

    I’m applying for an academic librarian job, and I’m required to submit a CV. I’ve only had one professional position since getting my MSIS, and until now, I’ve only ever been asked to submit a resume. I’m having trouble finding information on librarian specific CV’s. Clearly they will differ greatly from those of people with a lot of research experience and PhD’s right? Any library professionals out there have thoughts on this? Am I over thinking it? Can I just transfer my resume to a slightly different format, or is there something specific that needs to be changed/added? I’m specifically wondering about differences in describing my work experience.

    1. Alex*

      I’ve seen librarians’ CVs that list every conference they attended or presented at, any training or workshops you’ve attended or taught, publications or articles, committee involvement, anything really related to your work or professional accomplishments or development.

  142. EvilQueenRegina*

    Team building, lots of socialising outside work…how common is this? My manager has suddenly started pushing for all these planned nights out. To explain a bit of background, there is one job that became known as the Defence Against the Dark Arts job as no one had lasted the year,and we also have two personalities that clash.

    Honestly, I don’t really want all this, I don’t think team building nights out are going to solve the issues of why no one stays in the Defence Against the Dark Arts job or cure the personality clash, and frankly I would rather just go home and decompress. What are other people’s experiences of this?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      All I know is this subject gets a lot of very passionate responses here. To me, these things are okay in moderation and you should try and at least make an appearance once in a while. But if they’re excessive, and involve doing things not everyone likes or makes some people uncomfortable, that should politely be pointed out to whoever plans this stuff.

    2. The IT Manager*

      I was in the military. A weekly office longer than normal lunch and occasionally monthly happy hours that started during Friday afternoon office hours and could go a bit after work wasn’t uncommon. More than that was rare. Lot of people made friends at work, but friends hanging out after work is not office functions.

      Planned nights out sound terrible to me.

    3. Nanc*

      I’m on the side of team building (which I personally hate but can go along with if needed) should be done during normal hours or paid, if outside normal hours. Socializing–it’s fine as long as it’s optional and no one is punished because they have previous commitments or just have zero-interest in a DADA club or appiration lessons.

      You could try talking to your manager and asking what they hope to accomplish or what problem they want to solve with these activities.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I like my team a lot, and we get on well enough to hang out both formally and informally. However, I do NOT socialize with management outside of work, and avoid all events where I know they’ll be present.

  143. Fake old Converse shoes*

    This week I found out that the guy I like (tall, handsome, cat lover) is in a relationship. It was such a blow that I needed to take a day off to recover. The worst is he was my first crush in ages, and I was hyper sensitive due to my period, so all the pain was even worse. Now I have to see him every day and try not to think in how bad luck I have (all my crushes were either in a relationship or went to live abroad after they rejected me) or the fact that I’m reaching thirty and never been ever asked on a date.
    Also, my supervisor resigned and gave me one day notice, and from next Monday on I’m in charge of the whole project. I’m trying not to cry in panic.

    1. a girl has no name*

      Everything is going to be great. You are strong and competent and smart. When I get overwhelmed it helps to break things down into 15 minute increments. Focus hard on the project for 15 minutes, take a small break. It might help you take your mind of your crush too. Remember this to shall pass and you are a rockstar!

    2. Fabulous*

      You are not alone. My good friend never had a date (or a kiss) until after she was 30. It’s a big year!
      You’re gonna rock this project!
      ~*~*Good Vibes*~*~

    3. Elizabeth West*

      BREATHE

      What a girl has no name and Fabulous said. Take the weekend to relax a bit–do nice things for yourself so you are refreshed and ready to go on Monday. You got this!

      As for the crush, pretend there is something really revolting about him you didn’t know before. Like that he’s secretly a supporter of the Cheeto or likes to collect dead bugs and toenails in jars on his nightstand. Or that he eats the mice his cat catches (hey, I’m trying to be creative here).

    4. Fake old Converse shoes*

      But… ¡he looks like David Tennant! ¡And he’s a cat person! ¡And his voice is like Tom Hiddleston’s! ¡And he doesn’t think I’m a snob because I love classical music! *ugly sobbing* (My previous crush was a CS PhD cat rescuer dating a tall blonde lawyer. Damn, do you see the pattern?)

      Seriously, I’ve been crying at random since I found out and I’ve lost almost all my appetite. This is getting ridiculous.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        LOL but I bet even David Tennant does gross stuff, though he probably doesn’t eat mice. I hate crushes and I do get it. The last time I had one, I was really disgusted with myself because he was absurdly young and we had nothing in common BUT HE WAS SO BEAUTIFUL.

        Another time, I had a crush on a huge celebrity who suddenly got married, and it absolutely broke me (my life was a mess then and I was barely hanging on anyway). It was even worse when I found out I had only been two degrees away from him the entire time (arrrrghh). >_<

        My very patient mum said the perfect thing: "He's not the only man in the world like that." I realized she's right.

  144. Winter_2*

    Quick question: We use headphones (I’m guessing they cost $200-$400) as part of our (office) jobs. We all got new ones a few years ago. When my coworker left, our supervisor made sure she left her headphones, presumably so her replacement can use them. This seems a little bit gross to me? I know a lot of equipment gets passed between people, but headphones have so much skin/hair contact… thoughts?

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Really good headphones, with noise-cancelling and microphones, definitely cost that much. I have a pair of Beats with really raggedy padding that I plan to wear until they’re done, and they retailed for $295 (gift from my last job, so they’re mine, but I definitely had to use them in our open office).

        I wouldn’t feel THAT grossed out using old headphones, but they would get a thorough wipe-down beforehand.

      3. Winter_2*

        I’m not certain, I just priced similar models on Amazon. They are much nicer than average headphones.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Mine are Creative Labs, around $60 on Amazon, and they work pretty well, but they definitely don’t block out people talking. A friend said he had a pair of headphones he didn’t want and asked if I wanted them–I said sure, these are going to die on me one of these days. He mailed them to me, and HOLY SMOKES they are Symphonized Wraith Premium wood headphones. About the same price, but they look so hipster and the sound quality is AMAZING. Next job I have where I can wear them, I’m going to look so cool, heh heh.

            Dude. I’d still love to get some Bose or other really good ones someday, just to see if they block out people.

            1. o.b.*

              Haha, my parents got me Bose noise-cancelling over-ear headphones as a graduation gift and let me tell you, unless the technology has dramatically improved, they do not block out people -_- They’re great for sustained noise, like that mechanical whine on airplanes, but anything intermittent like obnoxiously loud conversation is still too audible for my liking.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      Hmm… leaving them seems standard to me, but I would hope the company sanitizes them before handing them off to anyone else. I can see how that might be easily forgotten in most offices, though.

    3. Wolfram alpha*

      I see no issue with standard headphones being shared. A quick sanitizer wipe with alcohol will take care of most germs.

      If they are earbuds that is a different story….

    4. LQ*

      I think this is pretty common. We have ones that have replaceable earpads and the whole things gets wiped down well (by someone who really cares about cleaning them!) and then the earpads get replaced.

      I get the weirdness. I’m in a weird spot where I have a “good” set of headphones and now I’m having other people do similar work and we have 1 set for the 3 of us who are doing it. (The 1 other person who does it occasionally is not a sharer and she has her own set.) It’s on my list to request at least a pair for everyone though we wipe down between uses, it’s just…sort of a part of what we do?

  145. Stranger than fiction*

    Question on navigating relationship with manager that was fired:
    A manager that was very dear to me was fired last fall. She was never a favorite of upper management and had kind of given up on anything ever changing and one day lost her temper with a report and that was that…
    Now I keep in touch via text and we’ve had drinks once (busy schedules). The thing is, it’s like I have to be careful not to act too excited, but there are some awesome, unprecedented changes finally occurring here. When I (carefully) share some news, I can hear the bitterness in her replies. Has anyone else had to navigate something like this?

    1. fposte*

      I would skew away from sharing news at all. This is the ex who dumped her. Don’t tell her what he’s up to now.

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          I understand what you’re saying, but I guess it’s 1) like juicy gossip like we shared before, and 2) the foundation of what we have in common. So maybe it’s time to shake that and talk about what our kids are up to or vacations or whatnot.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            You don’t still have it in common though. I think that’s a really important shift to consider.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Speaking as someone who was fired, when I ran into former coworkers I enjoyed hearing about how I was missed, about the balls that my supervisors dropped and the things that didn’t get done in my absence. I even enjoyed hearing about the changes that I lobbied for finally being implemented because after I was gone, they finally realized I was not just being difficult, but was actually overworked. It was a form of vindication for me.

      If you have some stories like this, I think she’d enjoy hearing them. I can’t promise she would, but I think she would.

  146. Ramona Flowers*

    Hopefully not too late to get responses. I’m curious: if you have a desk, how tidy is it?

    My desk is clean and organised – not bare, in fact I have lots of personal items, it’s just neat and tidy.

    In contrast… the person who sits next to me builds up messy piles of papers and random stuff then tidies them at the end of the week. My manager’s desk is so untidy I feel ill when I look at it. And a friend was telling me the other day that her desk mainly contains an increasing pile of sweet wrappers.

    So how about you?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      I’m the person next to you. I’m told it’s a sign of genius so I’m sticking with it.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I have exactly 6 personal items on my desk. Two of them are hanging, one of them is an organizer, one is a mousepad. I’m a minimalist at heart, despite my more creative position. Yeah, I could probably bring in more kitsch, but I like confounding my coworkers.

    3. LilLamb*

      My desk has a push-pin board so I have that completely pinned with artwork and post cards. Other than that my desk is completely neat and I clean it (wipe it down) at the end of day.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        We have push pin boards but they’re too thin for pins to go in properly. They give me the rage…

    4. caledonia*

      I’m a little from column A and a little from column B. I wouldn’t call my desk tidy but nor would I call it messy.

    5. Queen of the File*

      I tidy mine at the end of each day, but I also sound like your neighbour. While I’m working, every surface is covered in paper and whatever else I have needed to look at during the day (or thought I might need). I like to be able to see all my paperwork at the same time–it reduces the chances I’ll forget something.

      1. LibKae*

        Ditto. I’m afraid I fall into the “out of sight out of mind” camp, so if I put something away I’m likely to forget I need to work on it. I had a boss many many years ago who started insisting I clean my desk more often and couldn’t understand why I suddenly got less productive

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I only like to see the thing/s I’m working on right now. Everything else will be on a to do list.

    7. AnotherAlison*

      I think I’m clean and organized. I have five manila folders with active project papers in them, a few couple notebooks, pencil holders, a plaque, business card holder, 2 kid art/paper clip holders. I don’t have much on my walls — just a couple small pictures of my kids, calendars, and charge number lists.

      However. A mechanical engineer in my department used to be a Navy nuclear sub guy, and he didn’t have a single sheet of paper on his desk at the end of the day. He also Clorox wiped his desk daily. I feel very messy by comparison.

    8. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I absolutely can not concentrate with clutter. My desk is generally very clean and organized, however, I’m not as particular about it as a coworker that we like to tease by moving his stapler to the other side of his desk.

    9. Princess Carolyn*

      Not very tidy. If I put something away in a drawer or cabinet, I’m likely to forget all about it. So anything that still needs to be dealt with is on my desk somewhere. I do try to store things digitally so I can keep paper clutter to a minimum, and you can definitely see substantial parts of my bare desk. But it’s a bit messy.

    10. Fabulous*

      I’m in between. My desk is *mostly* organized, but it gets out of hand a bit during the busier times. If it’s messy for too long I can get overwhelmed, but I usually don’t let it get that bad (at work!)

    11. LCL*

      I think there is a desk under the stack of papers. Haven’t seen it in awhile, though. I keep the important stuff as efiles, the company provides excellent IT support which makes it easy. I would like to have a clean desk, but am mostly too unmotivated to do so since it won’t help me any. Most of the paper is scraps that I write notes on while I am thinking out a job or process, and writing the notes serves the purpose of starting my brain so I can use the computer. I wish I could make good working notes on a computer, but I’m unable to and am too old to start. Since all of my primary schooling predated computers, and in college computers were just starting to be used in offices, I learned how to think best using pen and paper.

    12. Dr. Doll*

      Our front desk receptionist has a messy desk with tons of scraps and bits and personal items, plus snacks and empty drink bottles. And, she is often sick so I never know if she’ll be in on any given day. The day that she left a banana on the desk and was out for a week was the last straw. I cleaned all the messy food crap up and told her that from then on she must throw all rubbish away at the end of every day. Mostly she does, now.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      My desk at work was always WAY more tidy than my desk at home. Especially at Exjob, where it was mostly bare, but we were paperless. Coworker’s desk looked like a rat’s nest, mostly personal stuff.

      At OldExjob, we had two people who were desk hoarders. I had to keep mine presentable because it was the front desk, but underneath, I had a ton of boxes I recycled for shipping purposes. I had people trained to bring me all their boxes and packing materials (except styrofoam peanuts because f**k those things).

    14. Julianne*

      I’m like the person who sits next to you, but I don’t clean up weekly; I clean up whenever I reach some unknowable breaking point. Sometimes it takes two days, sometimes it takes two weeks, sometimes I’ll have that one pile of papers sitting there for months. (This is also more or less how I handle cleaning/tidying my house, with the exception of washing the dishes.)

  147. Anlyn*

    My boss has been encouraging me to take the CISSP. Are there any security people on AAM who have taken it? Is it very hard? I’m not a technical person; I’m much more suited to creating the processes and explaining them than I am with the technical work. The company will pay for the exam if I pass. Is it one of those that usually takes more than one try to pass?

    Every time I try to take the first course on our training website, I get stuck at the encryption. I just can’t seem to wrap my head around it.

    Appreciate any info. Quick google skims don’t give me much.

    Any info would be appreciated.

    1. Kerr*

      Not a security person and haven’t taken it, but am somewhat interested in the field. It sounds like the CISSP is an important cert to have, so if they’re willing to pay for it, I’d probably make an effort to get it.
      Are there other training materials available, not through your training site? Sometimes you just need to find one that presents the topic differently. If encryption is tripping you up, study up on encryption separately?
      This may be helpful:
      https://danielmiessler.com/blog/infoseccerts/

  148. AgentOctopus*

    Hey AAM Community! Long time reader but first time commenter. Hoping for some advice on the doing of a interdisciplinary, fieldwork based PhD (doing a PhD is my job, so posting on the Friday thread as it’s job related). I took the PhD after 10 years of work experience in project management and research. I’d worked in three different countries previously, and in two languages, and, call me naive, but I didn’t expect a PhD to be as emotionally challenging as it is. For the PhD I moved from New Zealand to the UK, with my partner still living in NZ, and I’m currently on my year of fieldwork in a Mediterranean European country where I’ve recently learned the language but still find political and social engagement taxing because, well, I’m still learning how to speak properly. Plus since I live at my fieldsite, everything I do or say may be related to my research so I’m constantly on: there’s no 9-5 rather it’s 24/7. My supervisor isn’t in my main field, has never done fieldwork, and only really cares that I have 300 pages written in 1 year and 8 months from now. I feel incredibly stretched and I’m unsure of how to manage my supervisor’s expectations because I don’t even know what each day will be like. I am writing daily (what my supervisor sees as my job). I am also taking notes, talking to participants, participating in community acativites (all of which form the basis for the writing) and am also trying to get water and internet turned on my apartment! I’m writing in for two things: 1) words of encouragement and/or advice or 2) any stories of people who made it out the other side of a PhD and are living normal lives again (not sure academia is for me at the moment). Thank you!

    1. Simone R*

      All I can offer is words of solidarity! I’m in my phd right now and I totally agree with all you’ve mentioned about the emotionally taxing part. What’s helped me is talking to other members of my cohort and seeing that we’re all in the same boat, as well as talking to older students who and seeing that they also felt similarly at this point! Is your supervisor for your fieldwork the same as your phd advisor in your home country? Could you reach out to them to check in? Or find someone in your field to reach out to? I know other faculty members at my institute are always (generally claim to be anyways) happy to chat with other phd students. If you have a committee at this point, that’s also part of their job! Good luck! You’re definitely not alone in those feelings.

  149. Anon for Now*

    Hey everyone, I’d appreciate any advice you can give me. I started my position about 10 months ago, replacing someone who got promoted. I have to work with him, but I do not report to him. Since the very beginning he has done everything he can to undermine me, is outright rude and points out small mistakes with reply all to threads of people, including my bosses (and his former bosses). It’s not isolated to me either. Since I arrived two other assistants have been hired who were warned in advance about his behavior. I’m not sure if this is so that he can make himself look better or because he gets satisfaction at making assistants feel like crap, but this isn’t indicative of my performance at all. I’ve had great reviews and my bosses have told me that they’re very happy with what I bring to the table, on top of having a very good friendly relationship.

    Early in my job it actually came to a head when one of his “reprimands” really knocked me off balance so much that I was crying at my desk. HIS boss pulled me aside and talked to me about it, and since then things were smoothed over by switching who I work with to someone who is much friendlier–but when that person is busy or out of the office I still have to work with him. I just don’t know how to deal with him. I can’t exactly report him to my team because he’s completely nice to THEM. Typical kisses up, stomps down employee.

    TLDR: Jerk coworker who used to have my job.

    1. Triplestep*

      I had someone do this to me, and it only engendered sympathy for me and disdain for her. As with my case, it is actually better that your colleague does this in view of others cc’d on the e-mail – he is making himself look bad; not you. Just be sure to always answer in a matter-of-fact, friendly matter, as much as you may want to reply with snark. His responses in comparison to yours will stand out as rude and unnecessarily harsh.

    2. Argh!*

      Passive-aggressive advice (that I would never do but have fantasized about doing): leave a copy of Bob Sutton’s book on his desk.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I wonder if he hates his new job.

      This happened to me at a former workplace; the person who trained me in my job got promoted to an inside sales position, and they filled her old job. She hated it, plus she was having some family issues at the time. So she decided to systematically torment me, hoping to make me leave so she could get her old place back. None of this took place in front of the office manager; it was always when she was out of the room. I’d finally had enough and went to my boss, who believed me and basically told her to knock it off. A couple of weeks later, she didn’t show up for work and quit remotely. They kept me and hired someone new for the inside sales job, who was a delightful person. I think she expected me to quit and was pretty steamed when I didn’t.

      Of course, it could just be that a little power has gone to Fergus’s head and he’s simply an ass.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Well, technically, your boss or Fegus’s boss could put an end to his crappy behavior, but choose not to. Although, they did take you out of his orbit for most of your work. Repeat after me, “Fergus, thank you for your valuable insight. I look forward to receiving further pearls of wisdom from your lips.” Practice at home until you can say it with a pleasant smile on your face. Repeat each time he gives you his feedback. This worked wonders for me.

  150. Invisible to recruiters*

    Is it just certain professions that get contacted by recruiters? Or a US thing? Is it normally via LinkedIn?

    I’ve never been contacted (tech writing/web development) which isn’t too surprising, but it occurred to me after reading the other letter today that I don’t think I know anyone who has been (non-US). I’m surprised it’s so common!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it is certain professions, but I’m surprised you’re not included in that. I know a couple of technical writers who get contacted by recruiters all the time.

    3. LilLamb*

      I get quite a few because my job requires knowledge of email automation software. So I guess if you have a marketable skill people will try to recruit you also.

    4. Fabulous*

      I think it also depends if you post your information on job boards. I tend to do that in addition to applying directly and I’ve been contacted by SO many recruiters. And I’ve gotten decent jobs out of it twice now!

  151. Luku*

    How long does it take you to feel comfortable in a job?

    I am in my second “real” job (I’ve decided not to count 3 years jumping between seasonal contracts for nonprofits in a different industry). I’m in the middle of my 5th month in this position. I really love the workplace. I like my coworkers. But holy heck I feel like I am comfortably doing 20% of what I am given. They don’t really have time to train me in person but are pointing me towards online resources, which I’ve been doing whenever I have time between tasks. I am in a generalist role now and I feel like the huge variety of tasks given to me each take like a month to master at a very low level…. so I feel very much like I am not an “asset” to the company yet.

    My previous (and only fulltime permanent) job was at a large workplace, in an entry level but heavily specialized position, where at 3 months I felt like I could complete 80% of the tasks I was given without asking for assistance and at 6 months I felt like I knew exactly who/where to go to ask for help and was generally feeling very comfortable. By 12 months I realized I had “mastered” my position and I did not learn anything additional after then.

    Since my teenage and adult background is 80% “I was a full time student with a decent summer job that only lasted 2-4 months” and 20% “I was hired by a nonprofit to do a specific task or run a specific program for 2-4 months”…. I don’t know what is normal for a junior staff member. I am trying hard to master my position but there is SO MUCH to learn. I know my bosses don’t think I’m screwing up, but I just feel like I am perpetually behind as I’ve been here almost half a year and I still feel like I can’t complete basic tasks because I have to learn the basic tasks of like 5-7 different areas of my field (as opposed to before, when I became very efficient at all basic and some intermediate tasks for one area of my field).

    Just looking to see if this much sinking before treading water is “normal”……

    1. The IT Manager*

      It depends. Only 20% after 5 months seems a bit low, but a huge variety of tasks means it will likely take longer than a more focused job where everything overlaps. But your previous experience seems really fast. I think as long as your boss provides positive feedback on your progress you’re doing okay.

    2. Nanc*

      It depends (how’s that for being spectacularly unhelpful?) If it’s a new position or you’re replacing someone who was there forever and a day and there is no documentation it will be a longer learning curve. If they don’t have/take time to train you and the online resources are too general or not helpful that’s not your fault. Have you had a one-on-one review with your manager at this point? In our industry we generally have mini-reviews at 90 days and 6 months so both sides can evaluate how things are going. It might be helpful to sit down and let them know what’s going on and ask for more guidance. Additionally, come with suggestions whether it’s simply hey, we need to schedule a formal 3-day training for me or I want to block out 3 hours a week to focus on the online training with no interruptions. If you’re not already doing it, create SOPs for things that are not already documented so when you’re promoted or head elsewhere your replacement doesn’t have the same issue.

      Every company is different and everyone learns differently so I don’t think you’re necessarily sinking so much as treading water, which does get tiring.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      I’ve experienced both scenarios, so I don’t think this is unusual. Some places by their size or nature are just easier and faster to get trained at. Where I work now (we were literally just talking and this the other day because we rehired someone and are so relieved they can hit the ground running), it can take a good year+ to fully know the business, product, and industry/customer base.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      I think the issue isn’t really about you, but how little support you’re getting. I had a job like this and stress cried multiple times every day. I was trying to teach myself everything and nobody helped me.

      Current job did proper training and support, and I felt settled-in and up-and-running a few weeks in.

      You are not the problem here!

    5. Argh!*

      I use “I’m new here” for a full year, or I say “I’ve mastered the frequently asked questions but you have asked me an infrequently asked question.”

  152. Princess Carolyn*

    How do you wrap up a cover letter? I feel like I’ve written a solid intro plus two strong paragraphs about why this company and I are a match made in heaven. Now how do I professionally say “lylas call me bai”?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      It’s been a while, but I think most people use some variation of “I look forward to discussing this opportunity with you further”

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I end with:
      If you would like to talk with me or schedule an interview, please call me at X.
      and then my portfolio link.

    3. Fabulous*

      I usually say something like, “Thank you for taking the time to consider me for the position of XYZ at ABC Company. I look forward to hearing from you soon to further discuss my qualifications. Sincerely,”

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I usually do some variation of:

      “I am excited about the opportunity to bring my skills in A and B to Teapots Inc. I have enclosed my resume and can be reached via telephone at # or by emailing X. I appreciate your consideration and look forward to hearing from you soon.”

  153. Cyberspace Dreamer*

    Happy Friday to all.
    I recently had a nice convo with a former co-worker at OLDJOB. A mostly positive march down memory lane. Sadly, things have not improved and I am glad I moved on. Finally got all of the knives pulled out of my back, but our discussion did bring back a lot of memories. Thankfully, just the facts without the emotional memories of those events. We laugh . . . now.

    Here is the question: Anyone have a workplace experience in which a manager ignorantly acted on lies from back-stabbing co-worker?

    At OLDJOB, (we learned after the fact) that a co-worker was telling the new department head bald-face lies about us. This is possibly one of the reasons why this manager turned on me essentially caused me to resign and fired several others.

    Another co-worker almost lost his job because the back-stabber kept complaining about him. He was even suspended based on this person’s complaints. HR signed off on this without any pushback. Later, This department head was planning to terminate him solely based on unsubstantiated rumors and additional complaints, without looking into them. Thankfully this person’s manager ran interference. He convinced the department head to step back and reassess this employee’s production. This manager was able to prove that he was doing his job and then some. His job was saved!! Interestingly when the department head turned on the back-stabber, HR did push back and protected this employee. . . . . Interesting!!

    That director and that good manager are both long gone now. The man who was targeted and the complainer are still there and that back-stabber is still up to the same tricks but more subtly than before. This person’s actions are but a small piece of the larger pie of issues at OLD JOB, but it was a piece large enough to cost several people their jobs.

    Anyone have a similar experience where a manager takes bad advice from one or more of your peers?

    1. Rincat*

      My former exec director is like that. For reasons unknown to me, he seems to be cowed by two of the worst employees at OldJob – the Angry Guy and the Useless Guy. Angry Guy, while he does good work, is incredibly toxic – mean, antagonistic, defiant, and a bully. Just an awful person. ExecDirector keeps him around because he’s been here for 15 years and has a lot of institutional knowledge, but everyone hates him and it’s openly insubordinate. Useless Guy is totally useless, and ExecDirector takes all the work Useless doesn’t do and dumps it on others with a “sorry!”, but never actually MANAGES the guy.

      I have no idea why ExecDirector won’t manage Useless and Angry like a proper manager should. They really should have both been fired long ago. But they have been getting other people fired, or driven them off to other jobs. Good people that I’ve worked with, who didn’t tolerate their bullshit – and that’s why they were driven off or fired. I have no idea what Useless and Angry have got on ExecDirector!

      I left OldJob six months ago and I’ve never been happier. My stress levels have decreased significantly. :)

      1. Cyberspace Dreamer*

        There are enough differences to indicate that we did not work at the same place. But there is an “Angry Guy” at OLD JOB. Not really a Useless guy as far as I know. I got along well enough with well enough and was not a completely bad dude, but he is real territorial and was truly a piece of work at times. As I mentioned in an older post he is a self proclaimed “A** hole” and is proud of it. He can be a good guy but when it comes to dealing with other humans especially when it comes to work, its . . . . just . . . bad.

        Some time after I left, they promoted him into management. Ironically the aforementioned directory leaned heavily on “Angry Guy” and he was essentially running the department anyhow.

        Similarly, turnover has been really bad since I left and the problem is systemic and goes straight to the top as the division head is rewarding this type of behavior while a LOT of good people have jumped off of the carousel.

        To your point, NOT a fan of the lazy and cowardly manager. Makes a bad situation worse.

        1. Cyberspace Dreamer*

          OOH typos r us!! That should be I got along well enough with angry guy and he was not completely a bad dude. quitting while I’m ahead.

          1. Cyberspace Dreamer*

            aforementioned director . . . . whoa, must be friday!! Or I just cannot type anymore.

    2. Argh!*

      I am currently in that situation. I am female, and curiously, several men have complained about me. Apparently I am not deferential enough. My female manager is deferential and therefore agrees with her male boss that I have to be put in my place. I have dared to think I am equal to the men! But it’s just a coincidence of course.

      2. Cyberspace Dreamer*

        Sorry you are going through this. I did not find out about my situation until months after I was gone. It is frustrating how some managers arbitrarily make decisions based on one sided information without doing their due diligence. Especially when it is clear that the targeted employees are not the problem. Keep your head up! In my case I don’t think it was gender bias, the backstabber and the department head just happened to be female. It may or may not have been some racial element based on some of their behavior but nothing substantial. So we never made that a crux of the issue. Overall the behavior was just stupid and unfair.

        I hope they see the light, change their tune and allow you to do your job.

  154. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

    We have an employee who’s been a problem for many, many years, and I’m excited to say that I’ve finally been able to build a consensus to formally address it with a PIP and hopefully manage her out the door. I sent out an email to several folks on the team who are involved in putting the plan together, and gave them all a very AAM-ish script to use when she pushes back in her usual manner. Oh, and I also used the “missing stair” reference that I read about in the comments section here. Just excited to be able to put some of the excellent strategies I’ve learned here to use!

  155. MissDisplaced*

    So… I work at one of these places that is rescinding the very loose and casual work at home policy with a mandate that everyone needs to be in the office 8:30-5 PLUS overtime. This on top of a recent move which forces us commuters to pay a LOT for parking and/or train and some remote would would’ve made it bearable.
    It SUCKS. Just venting.

    On the positive side, I had a good interview today and a good phone interview.

    1. Chaordic One*

      So glad to hear about the interview. Employers can be so obtuse when it comes to logistics like parking and public transportation. Really!

  156. Me--Blargh!*

    Oh dear lord I should have started reading posts at 3 am. :P

    Another job rejection (fine; if you don’t want me, I don’t want you either). And I have not heard anything from the place I interviewed a couple of weeks ago. I sent a follow-up email on Wednesday–crickets. Mmkay.

    I’m just going to concentrate on getting ready for the eclipse. I applied for a job today and on “what date can you start” I put August 23. I think I’ll hold to that until it’s over. The eclipse is on August 21; I have to travel to see it in totality. There is no way I’m missing it, and taking an unpaid day or two wouldn’t be any different than the way things are now.

    It better not be cloudy! o_O

  157. BananaKarenina*

    Aarrggh! Anyone here who’s had to navigate a job (or career) search solo, without the help or advice from -well, anyone? Not so much writing a resume and cover letter for a completely new job sector (I’m a teacher, credentialed in a “low-need” subject – meaning I get temporary contracts), but gathering people in my profession to be sounding boards, finding possible leads, and helping me think and plan for other work options – having some accountability with others? I’ve been spinning my own wheels for so long (not by choice), and I’m just about burned out. It doesn’t help that I moved to a new area of the state (CA) a little over a year ago, and it’s been difficult to make friends here, much less connect with work colleagues. (Not trying to play victim; just need to explain.) Am I nucking futs to feel like I have to handle all of this alone? No husband or kids; just me. Questions, comments welcome from all professions, especially K12 educators/administrators.

  158. Jennifer Thneed*

    I was in the running for two jobs. Job1 was really slow about getting back to me (to the point that after the first interview, I assumed they’d gone with someone else and were waiting to make sure it worked out) but when they did, they wanted me to come in for a f2f interview. And then they never got back to me after that, and Job2 hired me. So I sent an email to Job1 withdrawing my candidacy … and never heard back.

    I guess I shouldn’t have been too surprised, given their bad follow-up when I was an active candidate, but I was still a little put out. They “ghosted” me! I guess I assumed that my email would have prodded them to give me SOME kind of response! I’m putting it down to “bullet dodged” but I’m still irritated. (And still glad that Job2 hired me. I likes ’em, I does.)

  159. Sophie*

    I found a job opportunity, but it’s in Northern England , near Scotland. (I’m American.) Does anyone have any experience working in another country? Was the Visa thing a hassle? (Do you think it would be worth it?)

    2. Jules the First*

      In England there are a million hoops they have to jump through before they can hire an American. Basically, the employer has to demonstrate that nobody in the UK or EU who is qualified to do the job is interested in the job before they can get authorisation to issue a visa for the position. The employer also has to be registered to sponsor international workers and have a visa allocation going spare (you get a limited number of visas). Your best chance is if the company is already employing international staff and the job requires a purple unicorn skill set, and even then a lot of companies are going to pass on an international applicant without working rights.

      I hate to be a downer, but most companies here won’t bother with sponsoring a new hire because it’s so complicated – I hired an American once who needed a visa and to be honest, even though I knew how fantastic he was at the job (because we’d hired him once before when he came to us with a visa), I was *thisclose* to giving up because the process of sponsoring him was so time consuming and difficult. And we were already experienced sponsors which meant my HR team knew what they were doing.

  160. Ramona Flowers*

    Help! LinkedIn problems!

    I am on completely private mode so I can’t see who views my profile and others can’t see me. That’s the way I want it.

    LinkedIn is now telling me that I appeared in x number of searches this week and letting me view where the searchers work (they’re recruiters). Does this mean people whose names I’ve typed into the search bar (like old boyfriends, or people I’m nosy about…) can see where I work? Or is it only a particular kind of search?

    I really just want to be anonymous on LinkedIn. It’s bad enough that they have that whole ‘people who viewed this profile also viewed’ thing.

    I definitely have the full private setting on. Anyone know how it looks to people if I search for them?

    1. Rincat*

      I was just looking at that area, and I tried to click on the job title that was “searching” me, and nothing happened. So I don’t think it’s going to show those people your profile. It looks like it just gives you an aggregate of the job titles that have been doing searches for your job title.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Weirdly it didn’t show me the title – it just showed me the exact company they were from!

    2. SadOne*

      I don’t think you appear as your Name even to recruiters. The reasons why I think so is that although my profile is not private at all I used to receive messages from recruiters starting with “Dear Ms R.”. I guess even if my profile is open, they only see the first letter of my surname.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        It’s not the recruiters I’m concerned about actually – it’s the other people I’ve nosed at. Can they see that I’ve searched for their names and found their profiles?

  161. Pet Sitter*

    A cat bit my hand. On one finger, she bit through my fingernail.

    She needed to take a pill for a serious medical condition – she can’t skip doses – and she was having none of that, nope, not from me, not today.

    I got her to take the pill, but ugh.

      1. Pet Sitter*

        The client got another pet sitter when I told them about the biting. I haven’t needed to see a doctor yet. Let’s hope I don’t have to do that!

        1. Pet Sitter*

          They got another pet sitter when I told them about the biting and quit. One of their previous pet sitters had agreed to take over, but they found somebody else instead. I don’t know what I would have done if neither of those people could step in.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            THIS THIS THIS.

            Take it from someone whose cat bit her on the knuckles while dying and put her in the hospital for two days (me). DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH CAT BITES.

          2. neverjaunty*

            YES THIS.

            Cat bites are basically direct bacteria injections. Please wash the bite and pack it with Neosporin and then get to the doctor Right Away.

          3. ..Kat..*

            Yes, do this. But I recommend an ER at a large hospital with a good infection control department. The germs are trapped under your fingernail- therefore impossible to properly cleanse and apply topical antibiotics. Check with your local fire/police/EMS and ask where their personnel get treated for an on the job exposure. If you came to my hospital, you would get a course of prophylactic antibiotics.

            Also, write up a narrative of what happened. Date and sign it. Be very objective (stick to facts of what happened, NOT what you think or feel.). And for goodness sake don’t blame yourself – no “I guess I could have been more careful…”. If you end up having significant expenses, tell the cat owner you need to file a claim with their homeowners insurance.

    2. Fabulous*

      That really sucks! I was bit a couple weeks ago on my hand, nearly through the side of my finger. I had to take antibiotics :( Still have a bruise under my fingernail too…

      1. Pet Sitter*

        Oh no! That sounds like a much deeper bite. I hear those fingernail bruises take months to go away. I expect mine to be there for a while.

  162. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

    I have needed to ask for a raise for like 3 months now and I keep avoiding it and chickening out. I don’t want to sound harsh and be taken the wrong way. Also, my boss is the GM of the business and SO BUSY! It’s hard to find a time when she is free to sit down and talk to me. And I don’t want to be like when is a good time for us to talk about some things and freak her out.

    So far I’ve come up with a list of things I’ve done while here and printed a payscale report of how much people in my position are usually paid. I think the hardest part is I’m looking for like a 35% raise and everything I read says most people only get 10% at a time but right now my hourly rate isn’t where it should be to begin with.

    Also, I have asked people for advice and they told me to just get a new job and I think that is just ridiculous.

    1. caledonia*

      Well, the advice to get another job isn’t that ridiculous.

      What will you do if you don’t get the raise you want if you’re underpaid to start with?

    2. Underpaid Bookeeper*

      Well I haven’t really found much else I like or it’s like an hour away so my raise would go to gas. Right now I work 5 minutes from home.

      I do LOVE my current job which I think makes it hard.

      One person told me to go work at Aldi though n I’m like that’s not what I want to do.

  163. Karen*

    I recently applied for an internal posting at our company that would be a step up in responsibilities. I just found out that I didn’t get the position. It particularly stings because the role really played to all of my strengths and I came out of the interview feeling really good about things. I was told that it was very close and I had interviewed very well and that I made it a tough decision. But that the other candidate had more experience leading teams. I just don’t even know what to do. It’s frustrating because this is the 5th role in the past 3 years where I’ve been passed over. My feedback for another role was that I didn’t have enough leadership experience, so I began volunteering on the board of directors for a local charity and led some major changes. But, it seems that wasn’t even enough, since I wasn’t leading a team. And I’m just at a loss as to what I can to move ahead. It’s particularly frustrating because I work in an actuarial capacity and see many of my peers moving ahead, but I seem to be stuck in the same spot. I’m not sure what my question is. I guess just if anyone has any general advice. I don’t know how to get experience leading teams, when all the positions I see that give experience with leading teams also require someone to already have experience with it.

  164. Asking about a friend*

    The non-profit my friend works for just did a re-org, primarily because of budget cuts. As part of this re-org, two of his direct reports were laid off, one of whom I know had a “coordinator” title. (I’m not sure about the other one; her title may have included “coordinator” or it may have been lower than that.) My friend was “Director of Blah Blah Blah,” but his title got bumped down to “Coordinator of Blah Blah Blah,” and his pay got cut, but he still has to do all his old, director-level duties, plus the duties of the coordinator-level position (in place of the coordinator who got laid off), plus some of the duties of the other direct report who got laid off.

    Is this normal in non-profits? Because I think this stinks.

    1. Anna Held*

      Budget cuts are sadly normal, but if you’re doing a job, you should have the title for that job. Maybe they have some sort of internal policy like “all managers get X salary”, so they need to eliminate all positions with “manager” in the title. But, it’s stupid. Of course your friend is going to start job hunting! It’s untenable.

      It reminds me of the round of layoffs at a non-profit I experienced. Everyone who was laid off was like, “Well, maybe it’s for the best.” Everyone who wasn’t cut was like, “What are we going to do on this sinking ship, having to make do with half the staff?”

  165. who?*

    This is probably long since dead but I just had the most obnoxious meeting experience.

    My company is in the process of updating their website, which is absolute shit. We’re in the quoting stage. In our building is another company that is under the same parent company, but otherwise completely separate. Someone looped in their new marketing guy about our website, and since he has a background in website development he forced a conversation with us and insisted on a meeting about what we want out of our website. All this happened while I was out of the office for several weeks, and I came back to find an email from this guy “assigning homework” (his words) for the meeting that he wanted. I did not do this homework because I was catching up on all the work I had missed. So we go to this meeting, and he’s not even prepared for it – he asked me if I had a laptop that he could borrow to hook up to the projector! I’m sorry, but I don’t even think this stupid meeting is useful or necessary, but you insisted, and you didn’t even come prepared?? What? Anyway so I did get my laptop. But it just ended up being a waste of time (in my opinion) because he wanted to “help us discover the scope of our project” AS IF WE HAVEN’T ALREADY DONE THIS ON OUR OWN.

    I just really do not trust his motives. Not that I think it’s anything nefarious, I just don’t know why he gives a shit about our project, when our companies are not involved with each other in any way. Like. Why do you care. And also it’s mildly condescending to think that we haven’t done our due diligence as far as defining our own damn project scope and goals.

    1. Beatrice*

      He sounds really obnoxious! Why are you engaging with him? Can’t you blow him off?

      I have a director for a process-adjacent team who is fond of sending me notes on projects he thinks we should take on and ideas he thinks we should pursue. He wasted my time with them a couple of times before I realized he’s all ideas and zero execution, so all the work was on me and my team, while he sat and dreamed up stuff for us to do. Now I just nod and smile and agree that his ideas are wonderful ideas, and tsk it’s a shame we’re all so busy and can’t quite get to them right now.

      1. who?*

        We are kind of blowing him off, but because of the weird politics with our shared parent company, we can’t completely stonewall him.

        I’ll be employing a strategy very similar to your nod, smile, tsk that you describe!

  166. Laura*

    I have a question for the AAM community:

    First context: On Wednesday (of this week) I contacted an employment agency (through their site) saying I was looking for administrative jobs. I didn’t get a call back from anyone there until yesterday morning; at the time of the call, I was unable to answer (dealing with my dog) but I did call back a few minutes later and left message, once again stating my phone number. I haven’t heard ANYTHING since then. Should I call the recruiter back or should I just forget it and look for a different agency?

    1. Fabulous*

      Look for a different agency. They’re a dime a dozen.

      Also, a word from the wise: After you sign up on their website, give them a call to let them know you signed up. Much faster service.

    2. Daria Grace*

      Try another one. If they can’t be bothered returning their voicemail messages, they’re probably not going to be very proactive about placing you in jobs

  167. AnonAndOn*

    I read this article a week ago but too late to post in last week’s open thread. It’s on The Atlantic’s site and is about women who are bullied in the office by other women. The number of women who felt that dealing with nasty women in the office meant that all women were nasty was disappointing. I’ve had female bosses that were jerks but I don’t want to write off all female bosses as jerks because of them. As a woman I’d prefer to work in environments with other women.

  168. Asking about a different friend*

    Everyone I know seems to be having employment situations this week. Well, okay, far from everyone.

    My friend Florence is a teapot painter, which is a professional job requiring a specific degree, a state certification, etc. The job market for teapot painters is pretty good, so when she was fired from her last job, it only took her a few weeks to get another offer. She (verbally) accepted the verbal offer from a branch office of Teapots Inc. And then the branch manager never forwarded her the written offer, which she needed both because she has enough common sense to know that written offers are important and because Teapots Inc.’s very-bureaucratic onboarding process requires candidates to accept a written offer in writing. Florence contacted the branch manager and the assistant branch manager, but was only told that the branch manager was on vacation and that he is the only one who can extend the written offer. In the meantime, Florence got another job offer – also for a teapot painter position – from a different branch office of Teapots Inc. in the same city. (Teapots Inc. has several branch offices in our city.) She accepted both the verbal and then the written offer from the second branch.

    Not that it changes anything, because she already did it (and because she’s an adult who can make her own choices), but does this strike anyone as being…risky, gauche, inadvisable? Or am I off base here?

    1. Argh!*

      She dodged a bullet in my opinion. Who wants to work for a manager who can’t take a vacation into account when scheduling interviews & onboarding?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Why is it gauche?

      She took the offer she had. The other one didn’t materialise in time. I think she was wise!

  169. Assistant Editor*

    A question about applying to stretch jobs.

    I’m job hunting right now, a company I would love to work for is launching a new venture. They’ve been posting lots of openings, and I finally have my resume updated and have time to apply.

    The only problem is that the current opening is a bit of a stretch for me. I meet most of the requirements in the posting, but a little LinkedIn searching suggests other people at this level in the company have about 5-10 years of age/experience on me. Would applying anyway make me look out of touch? Should I mention in my cover letter that I know the job would be a significant step up for me?

    Any advice would be appreciated!!

    1. Argh!*

      Go for it! Those other people may be jerks and may be rejected for that reason. If you have been receiving positive evaluations & good vibes from higher-ups that goes a long way. And if one of those better-qualified people moves up, you may be top of the list to replace them!

    2. Daria Grace*

      As long as you meet many of the requirements, you’re unlikely to look out of touch. Often the requirements in the job posts are not lists of strict requirements, rather wishlists of everything an absolutely perfect candidate would have, some of which they can be quite flexible on

  170. alice*

    I’m a bit late, but I have a question about relationships vs career.

    I’m from the US, have a degree in marketing, and worked part time as a pay-per-click manager for a small company in my college town in addition to several three- and six-month internships. So for a recent graduate (I graduated in December), I think my resume is pretty good. In September, I moved to Ireland to complete my last college semester abroad. My visa was for 12 months, so it’s up in about three weeks. The complication is that I met someone that I’d say I’m very much in love with back in October, and I really don’t want to leave him and he doesn’t want me to leave. But alas, my visa is up and I can’t renew it.

    For 12 months, I have been job searching like mad. I’ve gotten advice on how to format the CV, but it’s roughly the same as my resume. I’ve followed leads from friends and professors. I’ve tailored my CV and coverletter to each position. And in 12 months, I’ve had three interviews. It’s insanely demoralizing. I applied for a masters program here (which I’m not particularly excited about) just to stay and be with my boyfriend essentially. I’ve felt extremely upset and worthless for the last year as I thought my resume wasn’t as good as I thought it was and felt sick about potentially being stuck in a minimum wage job for the foreseeable future.

    Early this week, on a whim, I applied for eight jobs in a random US city that I’d like to move to. I got immediate responses and have three Skype interviews next week. My self-confidence has gone through the roof as I’ve realized that my problem is simply that job sponsorship coupled with the high unemployment rate here may be holding me back. (I know an interview does not mean a job offer, but considering how few interviews I’ve had in the last year, I’m excited.)

    The problem is that I realize that staying Ireland could potentially be a career killer. The masters program, while relevant, isn’t my first choice. I’m literally deciding between my future career and my boyfriend and it’s making quite sad. Can anyone offer any advice or similar stories? I know I am young and in five years, none of this may matter, but it still hurts now.

    1. Daria Grace*

      Is there any opportunity to live in Ireland but to freelance/work remotely for a non-Irish company? Can you work somewhere else in Europe that has a better job market but is close enough you can see your boyfriend regularly?

    2. Anono-me*

      Why is the question “Do I stay in Ireland for Lurve or move back to the USA for money, money, money?”?

      Can he move to the USA or can you both move somewhere else together?

      And I know you didn’t ask, but seriously, (unless he has a child, a farm, or a unique health condition and the world’s best expert is also in Ireland), I think he should be willing to ask what he can do to be together, not just you. If he isn’t equally invested in being together, I am not sure you should stay just for him.

      Good luck

    3. Ajaya*

      Since you just completed your degree you may be eligible for a 0ne-year working holiday visa to stay in Ireland. I applied for one and they are fairly easy to get as long as you meet all of the requirements. Your boyfriend may also be eligible for a similar visa to move to the US. I believe it is called the J-1 visa. He’d be able to live and work here for three months.

      If you two would be willing to both move somewhere together, there are a few other countries that also offer short-term working holiday visa’s to both Irish and American citizens. Australia is a popular destination. While I was living in Ireland, I actually met a lot of people who took advantage of the two-year Australian visa and actually moved there with their significant others. Sounds like it would be an amazing experience for a couple.

      Best of luck!

      1. alice*

        I’m already on the WHA, and I can’t extend it. Also he is in college for one more year, so he is stuck in Ireland for at least another 10 months. The idea is that we’ll both move at that point, but I’m not sure how committed he is to that idea.

        1. Infinity anon*

          Giving up everything for a guy that soon in a relationship has a lot of potential for disaster. You may end up resenting him later and will seriously regret your decision if the relationship doesn’t work. If you aren’t even sure how committed he is to moving in 10 months, you need to have a serious conversation about it before making any sacrifices. I started seeing my boyfriend around a similar time as you did and I may need to move to another city for work soon because I haven’t been able to find a job here. We had a serious conversation about the options and agreed that if needed we would do long distance for a year. You might want to talk to him about where he would want to move in 10 months and try to get a job at that location. Then he can join you or not in 10 months, but you will not have sacrificed your career for him.

  171. Jessica m*

    Hello,

    I was just promoted to a senior manager position and am in the process of hiring my replacement. This manager will run a team of 10. My AVP asked a person from another team to apply. That person has been sharing this detail around the office and seems to be under the impression that chances are good the position is his even though he doesn’t have a bachelors- which was a requirement. He was told that we may decide to use experience and his status as an internal candidate in lieu of education. Unfortunately it’s not the first time my AVP has done this-though in the past he has promised positions to people. When I brought this conversation as an issue my AVP suggested rescinding the interview which is scheduled for next week. The reasoning would be that there were several strong candidiates with degrees- which is the truth. I’m interested in the communities thoughts- should the invite be rescinded? If so I think we (as a company) owe it to the candidate to also let him know the lack of discretion here played a role. Though I have mixed feelings on who is more to blame- the AVP for making the comments or the applicant for telling others.

    Thanks

    1. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t do it, but I don’t have that kind of hiring authority.

      The reason I wouldn’t rescind it is that there may come a time in the future when this person really is the best person for a job, and you’d want him to be open to someone’s suggestion that he apply. Even if you just go through a sham interview, once he meets the person who gets the job, discovers the person is someone he can respect, he’ll feel better about not getting the job. Also, those people with degrees may be jerks or may not be truly interested in the job and he may indeed wind up getting the job.

      I’m not sure of the propriety of telling others. In my workplace it’s commonplace to do that, but then we have a history of hiring the internal candidate over the outsider regardless of which is more qualified.

    2. Beatrice*

      I wouldn’t rescind the interview, but I’d sure as heck use it to clarify that the invitation to apply did not mean the job was his for the taking, and that there are some really strong candidates and it’s going to be a tough decision. I’d also probably comment that internal candidates are expected to be discreet about the jobs they’re applying for, out of respect for other possible internal candidates, and to avoid the distraction and the impression that they’re not focused on their current role.

  172. Update?*

    Has there been any other update(s) from the LW who got into trouble and was fired because she admittedly was jealous of one her employees? I thought she was so brave to realize she needed help and to go to rehab and therapy for her struggles. That was probably my favorite all time update. I think of her often, but I haven’t seen any other subsequent updates and I’m wondering if I missed it if there was one. Has there been another update?

      1. Updates?*

        I apologize for the confusion. I know about that update, it is the one I mentioned in my post. I was wondering if there had been any subsequent updates since then.

    2. Helena*

      No, there hasn’t been another update. I also think of that LW often. I hope she is doing okay and knows that people here are rooting for her and thinking about her.

  173. not the receptionist*

    I’d love to get some thoughts on a piece of feedback I recently received: I was told that I need to be “more chatty” with people who stop by my office. I’m a finance manager who happens to work in the office closest to the door of our building, where people come and go a fair amount. I like to think I’m friendly with people, but I’m fairly introverted. I also have a job to do and spend most of my time focused on that.

    Also, I’m one of only two women in the office, and one of my male superiors made this suggestion. None of the men I work with have been given this feedback that I’m aware of, in fact, many of them work with their doors closed (which I am not allowed to do). It really rubbed me the wrong way. Am I being too sensitive?

    1. Effie, going nowhere fast*

      My knee-jerk response is: NO, you are not being too sensitive. Can you go a bit more in depth about why you aren’t “allowed” to work with your door closed? Do you have a different job/position from the coworkers who are allowed? Are the people who “stop by” looking to chat or is it imperative to your job description that you interact with them?

    2. Daria Grace*

      No you’re not too sensitive. Unless your job directly includes a receptionist or similar component where interacting with people coming into the office is essential, you should be able to focus on your work the vast majority of the time.

      Although there probably is some sexism in this request, I don’t know that you’ll get very far addressing it directly. Instead, you might be better focusing on how you can’t get all your assigned work done and do receptionist tasks as well. Perhaps something like “Yesterday you mentioned you want me to be greeting everyone who comes into the office. I know that job expectations do sometimes get added but I feel like we need to take a better look at how this fits with my main tasks. I feel like it’s making it difficult to get all the finance reports done to the high standard I usually because it ends up taking a lot of time out of my day and constantly breaking my focus. Is there another way to get the needs of people arriving in the office met?”

  174. Shrunken Hippo*

    Anyone else ever get major writers block when trying to get a cover letter done?

    I’ve been trying to write one for over 6 hours and even though I can give you a million reasons why I would love to work at the job, I can’t seem to get out reasons why I would be good. I keep trying to use experiences from my last job to outline why I would be great at this one, but it keeps sounding overly formal or stuttering. I can’t seem to get it right and the longer it takes the more frustrated I get. I have gone through posts on this site, but since I am basically applying for a glorified retail post none of them seem to fit. There are no special tasks involved and I’m not sure how to spin “I scanned items fast enough so my manager didn’t get scream at me for holding up the line”.

    I’m just going to give up for today and try again tomorrow, but I hate getting into these ruts!

    1. Cruciatus*

      What about “worked efficiently to move customers quickly through long lines”. I also have jobs where it was hard to say what I did that was good. Best advice for me regarding cover letters is to pretend you’re explaining to a friend why you’d be good at the job. And I usually actually keep the wording I would use to a friend which helps me keep it less stiff.
      So maybe you’ve never had a customer interaction that didn’t offer a solution that was satisfying to the customer. Maybe you’re familiar with certain aspects of retail (maybe items coming in, taking inventory and you’ve done that for 3 years). Managers consistently tell you you’re great at X and Y. You were employee of the month X number of times for great work doing A, B, C. Customers come back and ask for you because they know you’ll help them out. Coworkers all think you’re an expert in L, M, N and always ask you to assist in those cases.
      I hope you eventually write something you’re satisfied with!

  175. char*

    So my desk is part of a set of desks that face each other with short dividers between them. For almost the entire time I’ve been working here, the desk across from mine has been empty.

    Now I have a new coworker who sits there, and it’s not really his fault, but he’s driving me bonkers! He’s super tall so I see his whole head above the divider, and he’s always bobbing to the music he listens to on his headphones. So I have this constantly-bobbing head in my field of vision all day and it is super distracting. I’m considering asking if I can move to the empty desk next to mine so I can sit across from the short guy who sits still instead! (I would phrase the request more diplomatically than that, obviously.)

  176. WerkingIt*

    Just a bizarre job search experience…

    In a second interview they brought up salary and it was very low. I was very interested in the role because it would allow me to get experience in certain areas. I specifically said that this was significantly less than I currently make, but because I was interested in the role I would be willing to negotiate if they were willing to offer a better title or more flexible hours and an option to work from home. Totally normal in this industry. I even specifically suggested the title of the last person in the position and explained that it was more appropriate given my years of experience and the level of responsibility of the role and that it was a very common title among peers who have a similar position. I also said that this title would help me feel more confident in the role and do the job more effectively (the job would often deal with outside stakeholders and clients). She kind of nodded agreeably.

    Cut to a week later she calls to offer me to position and has not come up on salary and nor does she offer the more senior title and is generally being rigid about the everything. So it was interesting that her response when I suggested the title change was “shocked” and “uncomfortable.” We set up a time for me to ask a few more questions. a couple of days later when we talked, she answered all of my questions (not in ways that I liked) and gave me a tour of the building and then told me that she wanted to reconsider the offer because she felt it signaled a “deep disconnect.”

    Wow. I am sure I dodged a bullet. I was also surprised at how at the offer stage she was giving me information that directly contradicted her statements and answers earlier in the interview process.

    1. WerkingIt*

      Sorry, I said “and” in the series of things I would like to negotiate in the second sentence, but I really meant “or” instead. As in a combination of those things.

  177. Chaordic One*

    I’ve found myself in an awkward situation. A third-party group has reached out to both the organization I volunteer for, and to my former employer (a non-profit) from which I was fired, to work together on a charitable fundraiser. Because I would inevitably run into some of my former co-workers, and perhaps even the people who fired me, I’m backing out of the fundraiser. I do feel a bit guilty, but the rest of the volunteers can deal with it. I can’t.

  178. SadOne*

    I hope someone will still read that.

    I was contacted by a recruiter 2 weeks ago. After a call he sent me some adverts. I don’t think I can apply for any of these positions, they just don’t fit into my profile.

    However, some of the companies have other positions I am interested in. Is it ok if I apply directly via the company website?

    I have to mention here that the recruiter made a very negative impression on me. He doesn’t take no for an answer, called me many times during my working hours without waiting a few hours for my answer per email and some of the things he said during the call seemed completely unreliable (e.g. he presented companies I have never heard of during my long-term experience in the field as market leaders in the field, etc).

    1. Colette*

      Are you actually working with him?

      I think you can apply for different jobs with the same company, but I also think you should tell him you’re not interested in working with him so that he doesn’t submit you for jobs you didn’t agree to.

      1. SadOne*

        I wrote him I’m not interested in the offers.

        Not sure what you mean by “working with him”. Where I leave you get contacted by recruiters but recruiters work for companies, you don’t have a long-term relationship with them.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I think it means whether the recruiter is actively collaborating with you to find a position vs just cold emailing you.

          1. SadOne*

            Yeah, I got that, Ramona. And my answer was that an active collaboration is not something that is done where I live.

  179. smokey*

    What kind of shirt are you supposed to wear under a cardigan at work and where do you buy them? Tank-tops under a cardigan are fine for my office’s level of formality but what kind? Mine look kinda sporty. Are there “fancy” tank tops?

    1. Really*

      Try almost any retailer and filter for tops. JC Penney for example has quite a few “fancy” tank tops on their website.

    3. Observer*

      If shorts work for you, there are lots of places to look. I like the LandsEnd stuff. The long term quality is not quite what it used to be, but still will well and I have found them to be well cut and comfortable material.

      The kind of shirt or blouse depends on the cardigan. For a v-neck, almost any kind of top will work as long as it doesn’t puff out. For a round neck you probably want something with a collar or something like that.

  180. Pinky*

    I work at a public college. We usually have a big all-employee meeting before the fall semester starts. This year we have a new president. He seems to be doing a good job so far…until he invited a “motivational speaker” from a well-known, for-profit, megachurch-associated, fundamentalist Christian university to address our meeting. I am uncomfortable with this because I am certain there will be proselytizing and I feel that as a public college with a diverse faculty, staff, and student body we need to remain neutral on religion(separation of church and state is a problem in my state, so I am in the minority who are NOT OK with this). I plan to sneak out of that part of the meeting. I do pretty much every year anyway (the second half of the meeting is only relevant to faculty and I just go back to work, I have several plausible excuses). I don’t have standing to push back and we have a brand new head of HR, so I’m not going to them either. Would you recommend taking any action other than sneaking out of the meeting?

    1. What's in a name*

      While I agree that this is not a good choice as a speaker, separation of church and state is not a real thing. The Constitutional amendment says that the government can not establish a religion. It does not say it can not do business with a religion. Remember that at the time of the establishment of our constitution we were separating ourselves from Britain which has a national religion, the Church of England. It was established by Henry VIII when the Roman Catholic Church would not annual his first marriage.

      1. Pinky*

        That wasn’t what I was getting at. The state government here favors Christianity over other religions, which does violate the establishment clause, although I don’t think they are usually doing it with malicious intent for what it’s worth. I merely wanted to give an idea of the prevailing local attitudes so people wouldn’the suggest pushing back. My issue is with our administration, not the speaker, after all she is just doing her job. Proselytizing in a workplace that is technically part of the government, is never OK regardless of the particular faith. I would also sneak out if Richard Dawkins was the speaker.
        So do you have any constructive suggestions?

  181. Willow Sunstar*

    I have been trying to find another job internally for over a year. The other week, a manager (not my direct boss, but a middle manager in our group) treated me horribly rudely in front of everyone for something relatively minor. A number of ppl were gone that day to help with an off-site activity.

    I tried talking about it with my current, new manager (they recently shuffled directors) & was outright told “it didn’t happen.” New boss’s attitude seems to be “you are support, so you do not deserve to be treated with respect.” I missed the part in MBA school where they said it was ok to berate support staff. A work friend told me that others were talking about how rudely this other manager had treated me, so clearly we did not all hallucinate her rudeness. I have also been told stories of her treating the previous person in my role badly. Clearly she is being protected by upper management.

    I am now speeding up my search and including outside companies. I have been at this company for about a decade and in my current role for 3 years. It is not the first time she has berated someone in front of everyone for a minor thing. I have an MBA with a good GPA and I do Toastmasters as well. Actually received a very nice award from them for my volunteering last year.

    So it’s nice to know ppl can accomplish all that, and still be treated like crap. I did not take long vacations for 3 years because I have a co-worker who seems to have problems and makes many mistakes, and there us documentation on his mistakes, yet he has been there for 3 years as well.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’m glad that you are speeding up your search and including outside companies. Obviously, you did not deserve to be treated so badly by the middle manager and it is extremely unfortunate that your manager doesn’t have your back and doesn’t support you. Good luck in your job search.

      1. WillowSunstar*

        Thanks. I will have an interview next week for an internal position, but this one would be a lateral transfer. Still, I could walk to work and save money on gas and get exercise, so to me, that would be a huge benefit.

  182. Anony Mouse*

    Sorry if this is a silly question, but I have a UI appointment coming up and was wondering if dress pants and a collared shirt would be sufficient or if I should just wear a full suit (the letter just said “dress appropriately”).

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well, you don’t say if you’re male or female, and you also don’t say what kind of work you did previously. Your gender doesn’t really matter. If this is how you dressed at your last job, then I think it would be fine. It’s not like you’re going on a job interview and would dress more formally.

      (If you are a construction worker you could probably get away with wearing clean jeans and a clean chambray work shirt.)

    2. ..Kat..*

      The bar is pretty low for dressing appropriately. No cut-off jeans, no bikini tops, no flip flops, no tummy-baring tops, no tube tops. I would wear a pair of slacks, and a nice polo shirt (knit shirt with a collar and a placket of buttons at the top).

  184. Near the Border*

    This is way late, but does anyone work in one state and live in another? How does that work with taxes, etc?

    I’m thinking about looking for a job in Toledo. I live about 40 miles into Michigan right now, but I’ll most likely be moving further south in the next year or two to be closer to my new husband’s work. He’s currently commuting almost an hour from my house, and I drive 20 minutes in the opposite direction. We’re looking for a home in a more centralized location, but so far the options just aren’t great. He works about 10-15 minutes from the Ohio border and he really wants to stay there until retirement, so I think it’s worth me changing jobs, especially since I don’t care where I work one way or another. Just wondering about logistics in the meantime… Thanks for any insight!

Comments are closed.