open thread – September 1-2, 2017

by Alison Green on September 1, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Calling all current/former substitute teachers!*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I currently work an office job, and have a bachelor’s degree in finance. However, I’m very interested in potentially substitute teaching. My husband will graduate grad school in about 8 months, and will be entering a high demand field where he will be making 6 figures (or very close to it) right off the bat. I’ve always had an interest in teaching, and believe substitute teaching may be a great fit (I’m 24 years old, want to have children in the next couple years, and would love a job with flexibility that will still provide some additional income on top of my husband’s.) With that being said, I don’t know a whole lot about what the day-to-day life would look like for a substitute teacher. Can anyone shed some light?

    1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?
    2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?
    3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?
    4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?
    5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?
    6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)

    Any other insight would be appreciated as well!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I used to substitute teach and also teach—the two are quite different, unless you are a long-term sub. In answer to your questions on short-term subbing:

      1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?

      Just one. I don’t think there was anything preventing me from subbing for more than one, though.

      2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?

      No. Actually, that was what was kind of nice about it at the time. I didn’t want full-time work. That said, at least for the school district I was subbing in, there was rarely any kind of advance notice. I’d just get a phone call at 5:30 in the morning asking if I could sub (usually because a teacher was out sick). Occasionally teachers would know in advance they’d be gone (for professional development or some other reason), and so the coordinator would ask if I could sub for three days straight.

      3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?

      It really kind of depended on the class. Most of the AP kids were fine. Some of the students in the remedial classes were brutal, but some of the other remedial class students were very respectful.

      4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?

      Middle and high. Middle was the worst.

      5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?

      Honestly, for short-term subs, most teachers don’t expect you to really get any teaching done, so a lot of the “lesson plans” I was left with were things like “Show this movie” or “Have them take this test.”

      6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)

      This was many years ago, but it was about $80 per day, I think. Less than $100, anyway. Hopefully higher now, probably varies by school district.

      1. Author of this question*

        Thanks for sharing! I should have put this in my question, too, but overall would you recommend it/was your experience more good than bad?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Honestly, I didn’t really dig it. It was fine for a short time, but I had trained to be a classroom teacher, so being a short-term sub wasn’t fun at all. It was also a bit stressful to not know on any given day whether I was going to get that 5:30am phone call or not. Sometimes I’d turn it down (“No, I can’t today”) and they’d find another sub, but sometimes I wouldn’t get the call at all.

        2. Not That Jane*

          I personally loved it (mostly). It’s different from full-time teaching in that you don’t have to take any work home :) and I found it a very helpful introduction to the profession. I sure learned a lot about classroom management, and about what grade levels & subjects I enjoyed, and which ones I didn’t (high school math? which I totally could not have predicted going in!)

      2. blackcat*

        “Honestly, for short-term subs, most teachers don’t expect you to really get any teaching done, so a lot of the “lesson plans” I was left with were things like “Show this movie” or “Have them take this test.””

        When I taught, I kept a list of documentaries that were appropriate for each unit. They were my go-to “oh shit” plans. So if I was out unexpectedly, 90% of the time, my sub just showed a movie (and handed out an activity to go with it). I think this is a common tactic of teachers (I was told to do it by experienced colleagues).

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, it’s a common tactic, because honestly a class isn’t just a lesson plan. The sub doesn’t know what you’ve already covered (“As we discussed last week…”) or usually even what the kids’ names are. You can’t reasonably expect a drop-in stranger to do your job. It’s glorified babysitting (and I say this as someone who’s been both a classroom teacher and a short-term sub).

    2. Helpful*

      Near me, it was like $75 a day. You’d get called at 5-6am the day of.

      I think maternity leave subbing can be a great gig bc you have a longer term.

        1. Amadeo*

          I think all they require in this area (rural and poor midwest) is a bachelors degree of some sort. I have a full time job and no desire at all to sub, but my mother is a secretary/admin assistant at one of the local elementary schools. She’ll occasionally ask me, out of joking desperation, if I want to sub when she can’t find anyone who’ll come in.

          1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

            I’m also in the rural and poor midwest and our schools used to require at least 30 college credits but dropped that when they couldn’t find subs. Just a high school diploma now. They also only pay $60/day.

          2. MsChanandlerBong*

            Our area is desperate for subs. All you need is an associate’s degree or 60 credits toward a bachelor’s.

          3. Julianne*

            On paper, the district I work in now requires a state teaching license, two years of teaching experience, and completion of an online substitute training program. To be a per diem sub.

            Having met some of the people who sub in said district, I think a more accurate list of requirements would be: have a pulse. (End of list.)

        2. Frozen Ginger*

          My mother was a long term sub for a multiply disabled class and she didn’t have anything certifications or licenses.

            1. Amy*

              Was that as a teacher or an IA ? In Fairfax, the requirements for IA’s are a lot lower than for teachers.

    3. PM Insurance*

      I did while I was in college, many years ago. Check in your state/towns as to the requirements. Some have farmed it out to Kelly Services
      Work was sporadic. Could not rely on any set amount/days.
      Teachers did provide what the plan was for the day. It was often self study type of work required
      I always did middle and high school. Only 45 minutes per group and on they went
      I was in very good towns and never had an issue with the kids.
      good luck!

        1. ArtK*

          One advantage to working with a staffing firm is that you can get placements in private schools as well. My ex worked for Teachers On Reserve here in SoCal before getting a permanent position at one of her placements.

    4. NASA*

      I subbed about 9 years ago for 2 years.

      1.) Only 1 district, but I didn’t want “that much action” :) I was in grad school already working 2 other jobs so I’d just take sub jobs randomly.
      2.) Some jobs were 2-3 weeks straight, other jobs were just for the day
      3.) No, because I specifically choose elementary
      4.) K-6, but I liked the younger grades
      5.) IMO, I had full plans. Thank you, teachers.
      6.) At the time is was $110 per day, and if was a special ed class it was $140.

      Subbing was exhausting for me. Much respect for teachers. Also, I was 22-24 when subbed and I didn’t have that much professional clothes. I still have some of the shirts I bought for subbing (LOFT, ftw).

    5. fish feud*

      I’m not a teacher so take this with a grain of salt, but have you thought about tutoring? I would guess that would be more predictable and flexible. Also, you could look into remote teaching of English as a second language – one of my teacher friends does this in her spare time (teaching children in China through a program called VIPKID, I think) and speaks very highly of it. For her program you don’t need non-English language skills, as the classes are immersion and entirely in English.

      1. msmorlowe*

        I’ll second the vote for tutoring over subbing. In my experience and area, it’s a more reliable income week to week and better paid on an hourly basis. Also, I generally find that students are more eager to learn and work in a tutoring session.

      2. A.N.O.N.*

        +1 for tutoring.

        Rates can be very good, depending on what and where you are tutoring. My SO tutored physics and math while getting his masters, and he would make over $100 per hour. Granted, he was tutoring kids on the Upper West Side in NYC…

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I think at one point my niece (who had earned perfect SAT scores, and was tutoring in NYC while in college) was earning the highest hourly wage in the extended family.

          On subbing–I live in a “good schools” New England suburb and standard rate here is $100/day.

      3. brainjacker*

        I second this – tutoring one on one can be incredibly lucrative (don’t bother with Kaplan/Princeton Review, etc) and you get to set your own schedule. I suppose geography is the limiting factor here, as I happen to live in an area (Washington DC) where there are a lot of private schools and a lot of demand, but if you’re able to carve something out it’s very easy to make $100+ per hour. I started several years ago and still see students one day a week although I now have a 6-figure job, as it constitutes my spending money and I get to sock most of the rest away.

      4. Veronica Mars*

        Also going to agree with the tutoring. I did some subbing out right after college, and in my area (CT), sub pay was pretty good, I want to say around $100 a day (or just under), a little more if you were certified, and even more if it was long term. But I also have done tutoring, and vastly preferred it. I taught test prep through a reputable company, which meant they did all the soliciting, administrative and billing work. I just had to teach. I put in the hours I worked and notes into our online system and got paid via direct deposit. The hourly rate was MUCH higher than for subbing, and you can work completely around your own schedule. The company I worked for also did classroom programs, which I eventually did basically exclusively. I preferred the set schedule, and I could make, in 1 three-hour class, more than what I would get subbing for an entire day. It’s also real teaching, which is not what you’re going to be doing as a sub, unless you get a long term gig. And, at least in my area, those go almost exclusively to certified teachers.

    6. Annalee*

      My husband does some subbing for part-time work, and it’s a bit of a different arrangement from the other commenter so I’ll say here –
      1) We live in a pretty large city (~800,000), and the city’s public schools contract with an outside agency who technically employs all the subs and works with the schools. My husband can work at any of those schools – but the agency also told him that if he gets requested at a school that’s 45 minutes away, he doesn’t have to take that job. There’s never a shortage of jobs. (this can vary in more rural areas – my MIL subbed in a very rural area for a bit, and didn’t have enough work)
      2) Like the other commenter, my husband can choose his hours. I think they have a minimum they need to keep working. He works 3 days a week, I think around 8 hrs a day.
      3) Some students will treat both teachers and students terribly, but if you are a reasonable person, you’ll get along fine. From personal experience in public schools … the subs who don’t get treated well tend to be rather bizzare teachers, e.g. extreme disciplinarians.
      4) My husband does prefer to sub for elementary school though. Actually in our area they let you sign up for specific content areas, rather than age groups. So he subs for music classes, gym classes, and computer classes (he’s a musician). If you have experience in more “niche” areas, this can be really helpful — he started subbing because several local music teachers told him that they could never find subs who knew anything about music, so he’s “in demand.”
      5) usually not a real extensive lesson plan, unless the absence has been planned ahead or is more long-term
      6) this is probably the thing that varies most by area. I think my husband makes 12-14/hr (take note – this is an extremely low COL city, in a red state where education is on a string-budget, so I would hope that most places would be higher than this). It’s more for long-term subbing.

      1. Julianne*

        #4 is soooo true. A few years ago one of the performing arts teachers at my school somehow located a per diem sub who actually had music experience, and the band/orchestra/chorus teachers called him every single time they needed subs. We have a huge arts program at my school and this guy probably worked at least 30 days at our school that year.

    7. Mischa*

      I subbed for about 1.5 years, eventually getting a full time admin position at one of the schools I worked at the most.

      1. I was on the list for multiple districts, but tended to sub at one or two schools (one private, one charter). The kids and administration at those schools were just easier to work with.

      2. Somtimes I worked five days a week, but that was rare. As this was my way of supporting myself, it made life difficult.

      3. There was one school where I was treated like garbage by the kids. Never went back. I learned very fast to come off stern and strict right off the bat. It’s not fun being the mean sub, but you give kids an inch, they take 10 miles.

      4. I loved middle and upper elementary grades. Hated high school. I was 22 when I started subbing so it just felt weird to boss around people only a few years younger than me.

      5. Depended on the school and teacher. Some wrote great plans, some left me nothing at all. If they left nothing, we had a study hall.

      6. At the private school I made $100/day, and $130/day at the charter school. The private school had one central person calling subs, whereas the charter school teachers were responsible for finding their own subs. I hated being part of a huge text chain at 5am. No thanks.

      I enjoyed subbing but it is not similar to teaching at all, unless you get a long term position. But it’s a great way to get classroom experience.

    8. MorganLizzie*

      I’m relaying information from my mom, who has been subbing for about two years after retiring. She’s just doing it for something to do and she really enjoys it a lot.

      She doesn’t have a background in teaching/education beyond teaching preschool while in university. At least in our state/districts, those with teaching background/education/certifications are the only ones that can take long-term substitute positions (others are limited to three consecutive days in one classroom, but you could sub every day of the year in different classrooms.) Our district also has an app that alerts you of open jobs (teachers can put up their days off days or months in advance if they are planned). She books almost all of her jobs that way and could basically work every day of the year by doing so. This helps her avoid the 5:30am wake up call! She can also black out dates she’s unavailable so that they don’t call her (she also doesn’t receive calls if she’s already booked for another job). That has made the process so much more enjoyable for her, so I’d see if your district/s have that. If you don’t have an education background (I’m sure this is different for each state), she had to get a special certification and go through background checks and things which was a somewhat lengthy process, so get started early if you want to jump in on a certain date.

      1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?
      She does two districts that are close together (one very small – basically one school for each level) and one larger, 6-7 elementary, 2 middle, 2 high schools). There’s another larger school district nearby she could also do, but chooses not to as she’s kept busy enough without it!

      2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?
      She works as many days as she wants, which she loves. Last school year she worked almost every day (unless she had something specific going on and didn’t want to work. This will depend a lot on the size of your district though and how they structure substitutes (some schools have hired permanent floating subs that cover last minute call-offs, etc. One of her districts has moved to that model and hired a few permanent full-time subs.

      3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?
      She said most of the time they are very respectful, but it totally depends on the class and their usual teacher. Sometimes the teacher has a very structured plan and disciplinary action to take with kids while others do not. Many will leave specific notes on “good” kids or problem causing students. Overall she said 1st and 2nd can be the toughest to get under control if they aren’t a more well-behaved group.

      4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?
      She subs any grade but prefers high school and older elementary, so she chooses those jobs first if they are available to schedule ahead of time. Sometimes she will reject certain grades and schools where she’s had bad experiences/just didn’t enjoy herself.

      5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?
      She almost always has a plan for her, even if the teacher called out last minute, otherwise she says nearby teachers are usually pretty helpful. There have been a bunch of times where the lesson plan is just “let them work on their project” or “take this test” so she has crossword puzzle books and other things to keep herself busy if the kids are just working independently.

      6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)
      We are in a more rural area, so I’m sure it’s lower than a lot of places, but she’s at about 11 per hour. The annual is all over the place depending on how many days you take and if they’re full/half/whatever.

    9. Language Lover*

      I never subbed but I did used to teach and my mother was the chair of her department and responsible for finding subs so I can speak to it from that end.

      1) It depends on how much you’d like to work or how far you’ll travel. Some subs would be willing to travel up to an hour so they would work in multiple districts. Where I currently live is a big Metro area with multiple school districts so many subs are working 3 or 4 districts.

      2) I would imagine in a larger city, subs may work more. The town where I grew up had less than 50K people and plenty of subs. How often they would work depended on how established they were. My mom would focus on subs she knew were reliable, organized, good at following directions/communicating, weren’t pushovers or jerks in the classroom and were known to say “yes” if available. Those subs worked a lot and were often in demand to the point that they worked five days a week and would even get pre-scheduled. But starting out, it’ll mostly be the early morning phone call.

      5) Unless you’re a subject matter expert, most teachers don’t expect a sub to execute a lesson plan. And not all teachers will have back-up plans for subs so I’ve seen my mom scramble to throw something together. Movies were common. So were quizzes. Sometimes, if there is a project, they even get work time. Students will play dumb, though. “You have a project to work on.” “What project?”

    10. Chloe Silverado*

      I’m in a somewhat similar situation to you – my husband is in the military, and as we plan for a family I decided I wanted to leave my demanding job in marketing for something with fewer hours and work I could leave at the office. Should you decide subbing doesn’t sound like the best fit, you may want to consider administrative work at a school – some positions follow the school schedule and are off during summers, winter break, spring break, etc. (Double check though – some do work in the summer, etc.) Another option might be part time office work – I found a part time, hourly marketing position with a local city government. Because it’s city government they’re very strict about me only working during the established hours, but they’ve been very flexible about my schedule. I am allowed to decide how I generallly want to spread out my hours each week and I can move them around for appointments and family obligations. Good luck!

    11. A Teacher*

      I’m a high school teacher that subbed for over 5 years before becoming a teacher, I was in a different career where I could substitute teach as well.

      1. I subbed for one district at a time.
      2. Usually 3 days a week when I subbed more often. Good subs will be called regularly and will have their pick of jobs. Teachers request subs that have good classroom management and don’t leave their rooms a mess. Our school day is 7.5 hours a day
      3. Being treated poorly depends on the perception you give off. If you’re friendly but draw a line and hold firm on your management, you’ll be good.
      4. High School and Middle School
      5. It depends on the teacher. I always leave detailed sub plans because I subbed. Usually I leave something easy so the sub doesn’t have to figure out something complicated.
      6. My district pays $100 a day for a sub.

      Make yourself valuable to the teaching staff. Actually supervise the students and don’t leave a mess in the classroom–shut the windows, throw out trash, push chairs in, don’t go through the desk. Basic stuff, but things I’ve seen from subs. DOn’t be hateful to my kids–the kids will tell me what you’re like as a sub.

    12. Kyrielle*

      I haven’t ever done this job, but if the elementary grades interest you, also consider a role as a ‘teacher’ or staff member at an after-school program. The one our kids attend provides care from school out (2:10, or 12:10 on early release days) until 6 pm, every day, and 6:30-6:00 on school-out days that aren’t holidays, so it’s a regular but not full-time gig. Depending on the program, there may still be teaching or tutoring involved, and it seems like they are always hiring (because a lot of times they get staff members who are substitute teaching while they work on getting a full-time job or finishing up their education degree so they can, so when they graduate or land the job, they’re gone). The ones who stay around for more than a year become treasured continuity for me as a parent, and for the kids also.

    13. AnonySub*

      1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?
      Just one. My district has something like 20 elementary schools, 6 middle schools, 5 high schools, and 4-5 specialty schools like the early childhood center. There is opportunity to work every day if I wanted to. I tend to be really picky about my assignments.
      2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?
      Subbing is one of 3 jobs for me, so I don’t work every day. It’s probably more normal for me to sub 2 days a week. I could work 5 days a week if I wanted to.
      3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?
      It depends on the school. In general, yes. Is is normally something I’m going to go home and cry about? No. If I run into a group of students like that, I make a big mental note not to sub for that teacher again. The demographics in my district vary and I tend to avoid the schools with the most difficult students.
      4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?
      I do all three! I actually do a lot of center-based special ed, because I subbed extensively as a paraprofessional before I started subbing as a teacher, so I’m familiar and comfortable with those types of classrooms. If you can get into a room with good paras they will help you out so much.
      I don’t do regular elementary school classes because I don’t know how to control a classroom for the whole day.
      I do sub for elementary school specialists, like music, because I only have to handle the kids for 45 minutes! Then I get a new group. That’s also a reason that I like mainsteam middle school and high school… they switch classes 6 times a day!
      5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?
      They always have a lesson plan. Some lesson plans are better than others.
      6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)
      My district pays $120 per day or $70 per half day. It’s a suburban district in a medium-cost-of-living area.

    14. LA*

      I subbed for 4 years, and taught high school for a couple of years. Subbing is a thousand times easier than teaching, but honestly, they’re mostly two very different jobs unless you have a teaching background and a chance to collaborate with the teacher you sub for (the second of which is pretty rare). Most of my subbing was done for foreign language, because I knew the teachers and the languages, and they liked that they didn’t lose a day of teaching when I subbed for them. The teacher I subbed for the most (who I’d actually had as a teacher when I was in high school myself) had a pretty strict classroom manner, and I was able to get the kids to do a lot more than she could, mostly because I was less intimidating.
      When I was a teacher, I couldn’t count on my sub to teach the language or even be much help with any work they had, so I had a whole folder of potential sub lessons for each level; mostly cultural readings or movies that they could do without needing help.

      1. Just one. I didn’t want a ton of sub work because I was also in class part of the time.
      2. Definitely no. I usually did a full day here and there. It was a full day, though.
      3. No, but mostly my situation was unique because they knew I’d been a student of the same teacher before, and I knew what tricks they would try to pull. Most students enjoyed having a sub, but it’s important to make sure they know you’re not an idiot. Don’t write a zillion hall passes.
      4. High school.
      5. I usually had a lesson plan if it was foreign language, but only because they knew I could teach. Other teachers would just provide rosters for attendance, and some work or a movie for the students to do, and homework for them. A lot of the time, we would do the homework together as a class.
      6. At the time, I got $60 a day, but that was about 8 years ago, so I imagine it’s more like $80 or $100 now. I never counted on it as a major source of income.

    15. Gina*

      I hated every single second of being a substitute teacher. I used to cry when the phone would ring in the morning.

      I substituted in PA from 2010-2013, which is one of the more rigorous states for teacher certification. After proving I had a bachelor’s degree and providing 3 letters of recommendation from current educators or administrators, I had to complete a formal training program through an Intermediate Unit to receive an emergency certification and I had to pay all my own fees (child abuse clearance, fingerprints and FBI clearance, etc.). This certificate only allowed me to get day-to-day substituting; I was not eligible for long-term jobs (like maternity coverage).

      1.) I subbed for all districts served by the IU in which I took my training, which amount to about three counties.

      2.) I definitely did not get 5 days per week! I always got multiple calls for Mondays and Friday (therefore having to repeatedly turn down the late callers and make them angry), and I struggled to find work in the middle of the week. Also keep in mind that due to the legal changes to what constitutes a full-time position, some school districts are playing games by limiting subs to 3-4 days of work per week and then cutting them off.

      3.) This hugely depends on administrative support. In schools where the kids know that security never came when called, they would act like animals. In districts that had prompt and firm consequences, the kids behaved.

      4.) Mostly the ends–elementary and high school.

      5.) Teachers in most districts are required to have emergency plans, so I never had absolutely no idea what to do. Often the plans I was given had little to do with the current curriculum, but there was always something.

      6.) Most districts paid in tiers. For example, a daily rate of $80 for the first 100 days, then a bump to $95 after that. Because so many districts throttled your number of days (as I mentioned in #2 above), it was very hard to get to that pay bump. I’m sure that’s intentional. I never made it to even 15k a year.

      Other insights: subs are always given on-calls, so even if you’re subbing for a teacher with a cushy schedule, you will never get those preps to yourself. Expect to get last-second calls for coverage in another room. Travel light for this reason: no heavy bag, no lunch that needs heating, no high heels.

    16. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I used to sub, years ago, and my husband has subbed more recently.

      One nice change in our area – sub requests are online in our district! Meaning, when you are approved as a sub by the district, you can log on to the sub website, see what days/teachers/classes are in need of a sub for the week, and sign up for it online. There are still 6 am day-off calls, because teachers get sick, but lots of times the days off are known in advance and so you can plan out your week. My husband worked every day for a while, and didn’t rely at all on early-morning day-of calls. He had it arranged for the week in advance, online. If any districts around you have that feature, it is great!

      1. Subbed for just one district, as did husband
      2. I worked 3 ish days a week, for the school day (6 hours). He worked 5.
      3. Sometimes I was treated fine, sometimes it was a challenge.
      4. I did high school only. Husband did all grades.
      5. Usually there was a lesson plan – though super simple, like “have the kids do this worksheet and pass it in to you at end” type of thing, so that I was not teaching; I was simply managing the classroom. For a longer-term assignment I had (2 weeks) I had to make up lesson plans. (It was the start of the school year and the teacher was out unexpectedly, so no plans left)
      6. I forget what I earned, but my husband got $85 a day. At one point he got a long-term sub assignment as an instructional aide and bumped to $95. Long term subs for teachers (not aides) in our district are at $120, I think.

    17. Former Teacher*

      I was a full time teacher and subbed when my husband was temporarily relocated to a new state mid school year. I actually day to day subbed, then did a maternity leave for the same district. I liked it, but I’d come from a bad work situation and was burned out, so the day to day subbing felt like a “break”. The maternity leave is more like being a full time classroom teacher, so I’ll answer these questions about the day to day subbing experience.

      1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?
      Just one, but it was a huge district. I subbed for 4 schools within the district.

      2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?
      I got called just about everyday. Most times morning of, although sometimes I’d know in advance. I got in the habit of getting up and getting ready for my day as if I was going in. If I was called (and I usually was) I put on work clothes, if I wasn’t, I put on casual clothes and got started early on my day.

      3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?
      Occasionally. Maybe slightly more often than when I was the classroom teacher. I only had one really chaotic day…middle school kids the day before Christmas break with no work left for them at all and shortened periods for a show/assembly at the end of the day. So that was a predictable outcome!

      4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?
      Middle and high

      5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?
      Usually there was a lesson. Sometimes it was very detailed (like teaching an actual class) othertimes it was watch a video/read the book and do a worksheet. As word got around that I was a former teacher with a significant amount of experience in our discipline area (I almost never subbed out of my subject area, because there were so many classes and science subs are hard to find, so I was usually the first call when a science teacher was out), it became more of the former.

      6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)
      $125/day. Extrapolated over a whole school year, I think I would’ve worked 130-150 days.

    18. Artemesia*

      I have a friend who did this a lot and the one thing I remember her telling me was that she had folders of activities she could do with kids in different grades as frequently there was no actual lesson plan left or very vague instructions. She had some spelling games, some history quiz show games, some stories that kids could read out loud taking turns etc.

    20. Melody*

      I worked as a sub for a number of years in multiple districts. Pay was $75-100 depending on the district. Where I am there is a sub company that works with multiple districts so I was technically working for the sub company. The nice thing about this was Everything was centralized. You can choose which days or times you are available as well as which subjects or grades you want or definstley don’t want. Long term sub positions can be great for consistency. If you end up in the same schools over and over the kids get to know you and that can make things easier. It was great for when my kids were first born because I got to spend time at home with them whenever I needed or wanted. Good luck!

    21. JN*

      1.) Did you sub for multiple school districts, or just 1 or 2?
      I subbed in 3 districts regularly and 2 more occasionally for a while

      2.) Did you generally work 5 days/work? How many hour per week do/did you usually work?
      It started out slow, but as I built a good reputation as a reliable sub, I did end up working every day. Some places would call me 3 weeks out from a teacher’s planned absence so they could book me before someone else did. It could be hard sometimes to go to bed not knowing if I would be working the next day or not, so making advance plans could be a challenge unless I told districts I just wasn’t going to be available on a given day.

      3.) Do you feel like you were treated poorly by students because you were “the sub”?
      It depended on the age and school. Some kids were great and I loved going back, other kids had me mentally striking that teacher off the future assignment acceptance list

      4.) What grades did you sub in most frequently (elementary, middle, high school)?
      I told districts not to call me for high school or special ed, but otherwise I did everything from early childhood up through middle school. I probably subbed in elementary schools the most.

      5.) Did teachers usually provide a lesson plan, or did you find yourself “winging it” a lot of the time?
      Teachers are supposed to provide lesson plans, and usually I found them to be pretty good. But occasionally the plans just didn’t make sense or supplies weren’t where the plans said they would be, so I did have to wing it some. Most teachers overplanned for their absences (having more for students to do than would fit into the time available), but sometimes I did have to pull out some brain teasers to fill extra time.

      6.) How much money did/do you earn per year (I know this will vary from state to state.)
      Pay where I worked in the midwest was around $80/day, with variations a couple dollars either way depending on the district. The longterm sub assignment I did for a teacher on maternity leave paid more, I think, but it was so long ago that I don’t remember how much now. Subbing doesn’t come with benefits, so any medical and vacation time is unpaid, but if your husband has a great job, then that factor isn’t important.

      If you’re okay with being in different grades and schools from one day to the next and thinking “on the fly”, then subbing could be a good way to go, since you do have flexibility to work as much or as little as you want to. But if you want stability, then subbing can often lack that.

    22. Julianne*

      My experience is pretty similar to Anonymous Educator above. I did some subbing when I was in grad school (for teaching; I was already licensed in the state where I went to college, but I was getting certified in a new subject/state).

      1. I only subbed in one district, because I limited myself to places I could easily get on public transit. (I didn’t have a car at the time.) I looked into subbing in another nearby district, but their posted requirements for subs were beyond what I was willing to commit to (some sort of online training course + a multi-step interview process).
      2. I usually worked 3-4 days per week. School days in the district where I subbed were 6.5 hours, but I always tried to arrive at least 30 minutes early to get the lay of the land. I probably could have worked 5 days per week if I’d wanted to, but I liked having the choice to not work every day.
      3. Mostly I was treated fine by students. I would estimate that I probably subbed in about 40 different classrooms across 6 schools, and there were only 2 classes that were tough enough for me to put them on my personal “Do Not Sub” list. There was one other class where the teacher (herself a long term sub) left really terrible plans and the kids pushed back quite a bit, which was frustrating but very understandable – I held it against her, not them.
      4. I mostly subbed for elementary. I subbed twice for middle school, but never higher than 7th grade.
      5. Lesson plans of variable quality were provided for every sub job. On the weak end, these were notes with just the name of the textbook for each subject (no page numbers, notes about what they were learning, etc.). I also got some plans that scripted the entire day in 5-10 minute chunks. Probably the worst was when the plan was “show this documentary” but did not leave me either a copy of the movie or a device to play/project it on.
      6. I made $99 per day. This was in metro Boston in 2013-14. The same district now pays $101 per day.

      In addition to per diem subbing, I have also been a short-term sub (~3 weeks) and a long-term sub (16 weeks). Although you lose the flexibility that comes with being a per diem sub, I think it’s a much better gig. (Of course, when I was subbing, I was doing so with the goal of getting a full-time teaching job, so I found longer jobs were more in line with my goals.) Classroom management is totally different if you’re there for a day versus a week or more, instruction is much easier if you have an idea what they already learned, and in some districts you get paid more (sometimes even retro pay!) the longer you stay in a single assignment. If I moved away now and had to sub while looking for a full time job, I’d probably not choose to go back to per diem subbing unless we really, really needed the money.

    23. Not That Jane*

      I also was a sub for a while (2005-2009, in the San Diego area). To answer your questions:
      1) I started out just working for a couple districts, then by the time I left, I was working for I think 6 or 7 districts. High school districts, unified school districts, and elementary districts. I think I worked at about 100 different schools!
      2) I typically tried to work 4-5 days per week, full days. At first, with only 2 districts, that was hard; but as I gained districts and gained a good reputation with teachers, I started getting more requests than I could handle.
      3) It varied. Typically, I could tell what kind of classroom management the regular teacher had by how the students treated me (and by how clean the classroom was!). Better-trained students usually meant an easier day for me. It also helps A LOT to meet students at the door with their worksheet, be efficient about taking attendance, roam around the room frequently, etc. If they get the initial impression that it’s business as usual, it goes much smoother after that.
      4) I did everything! I preferred preschool (although it paid less), middle or high school.
      5) I think I only had to “wing it” once! However, I was usually getting assignments a week or more out – so it was mostly teachers scheduling personal days, conferences, etc. If you take the assignments on the morning of, often that is, say, folks who’ve been up all night with food poisoning, so it’s less likely they will have been able to prepare a plan.
      6) I earned about $20K annually, but that wasn’t working every day I could have. I think at that time, the lowest paying district was $90 per day, and the highest paying was about $120. It was also often possible to keep working in the summer, due to year-round schools, summer school, etc.

    24. Cascadia*

      I work for a private school in a large metro area and I think we pay our subs somewhere between $120 and $180 a day. Not sure if the exact going rate. A lot of our subs also sub for other private schools in the area as well. Each department has to find their own subs and they usually cobble together 2 or 3 subs for the year for all of the classes in a given department. I’ll echo what most everyone else said below. Also check into the local district and school requirements for subbing. Some places require teaching experience, or a teaching certificate. It’s quite different from teaching though, so if you’re trying to decide if you’d like to be a classroom teacher I think it would be good experience but definitely take it with a grain of salt. Generally you are a glorified babysitter, have no relationships with your students or with your colleagues, and are just keeping them from going crazy. Running your own classroom is a totally different experience.

  2. Sadie Doyle*

    Does anyone else think about what you want to ask in open thread all week, and then when the thread opens, your mind goes blank?

    2. Kim Possible*

      I’ve started typing up my questions ahead of time in a word doc so that I can just copy & paste it into the thread when it opens up. :)

    3. Over educated*

      Yes! Sometimes I have too many things I’ve wanted to discuss on the open thread and have to decide on one or two. Or sometimes it feels high pressure, like I’m not sure if I can write it in a way that’s interesting enough for people to want to respond to (I think I’m particularly bad at that, honestly).

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I do that! I think of questions and when it comes time to post them I change my mind because I think it’s not really important or interesting.

        1. Asterix*

          I worry that it becomes as long as an essay, or mini novel, to explain the intricacies of the dilemma.

    6. Fine Dining Porkchops*

      All the time!! If it’s something I really want to remember I put a note in Outlook to remind myself.

    8. JulieBulie*

      Yep, every week. (Ditto for the Saturday free-for-all.) I’m always in the car when I think of it, so I can’t even write it down! I need to figure out some kind of mnemonic to help me remember of things (lots and lots of things) that I think of in the car.

    10. Buffy Summers*

      That actually just happened to me today. I had something and I can’t remember it for the life of me. Frustrating.

    14. Smiling*

      Usually I think about it, realize I’m stewing over something needlessly, then change my mind about posting. Or, the bosses actually show up on time and I don’t have time to post.

    15. Beatrice*

      I often wind up finding I don’t have time on Friday mornings to post, and by the time I get here, the thread is 500+ posts long. If anything, I’ve learned that my Friday mornings are busy!

  3. Long Weekend Ahoy!*

    I’ve been in my current job for half a year now and I have noticed a lot of turnover since I arrived. At my last job, it was a place people stayed for many years so I was the odd one out to leave after three years. In my new job, a lot of the people leaving have only been here a year or two. Of course, there are those who have been with the company for years but they’re mainly the higher ups. The people on my level are the ones with a short lived job lifespan.

    Those leaving have told me they felt like this job was a way station, just a brief stop on their way to what they really want. However, I’m quite happy with where I am. Though I’ve only been here for six months, I don’t see myself in a hurry to leave. But when the mood of those around me are people eager to leave, I’m wondering if I’m missing something. Should I be on alert to leave? Should I already start planning my next step? I almost feel like I’m doing something wrong by being content with where I am and not thinking about my next steps, when that’s what most of the people around me seem to be focused on.

    I don’t think I’m going to be here for decades but I do think I’ll stay put for at least a couple of years. But should I be on alert for whatever is driving out my coworkers?

    1. Over educated*

      You’ve only been there six months. A lot can change between six months and two years in how you feel about the job, and how much you learn about how things work and why people move on. I wouldn’t worry about it just yet.

      1. Lora*

        Yeah, this. When I was in ExJob for 6 months it wasn’t so bad, but then they got a new VP (I later learned they changed VPs every two years or so) and he was fairly benign while he was learning the ropes himself, but as soon as he got settled in HOLY DISASTER BATMAN. I mean, eventually they fired him and they haven’t replaced him yet, but in the meantime there was a lot of turnover. And it turned out this was a pattern with the senior senior management.

    2. Generic Administrator*

      Yep, I would stay alert. People saying it’s just a way station/brief stop etc could just be using that as a cop out way of saying something else about the place.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Having ignored waving red flags at a place that ‘had always been there’ but was about to implode, I think we all want to ignore bad signs that will disrupt our lives. When you get that spidey sense, then pay attention so you can see the handwriting on the wall before the competition and jump if need be.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I worked for a company that aggressively recruited new grads. The end result was 70% of the workforce was under 30 and only the top, top management was experienced. There wasn’t any good leadership or opportunities for development because everyone was a newbe. It was a jumping off job. New hires would come in, learn the ropes of the industry, then get frustrated and leave at about the 2 year mark.

      1. CGor*

        Same here. I worked at an ad agency where the median age was 26. Constant revolving door. The long hours, stressful deadlines, and low pay certainly didn’t help.

      2. Susan*

        My company likes to recruit new graduates and new immigrants for jobs (accounting). It may sound nice, but it’s really to be able to justify a poop level of pay.

      3. Anonomatic Yo Yo*

        Im at a place right now with an extremely strong grad program of rotations, etc that lasts for two years. That’s great and all, and the grads I have come in contact with are really smart, but then you end up with this WEIRD dichotomy of most folks under 30 doing the work but senior leaders 40+. If you are in the middle its a no-man’s land: you are either doing work way below your skill level or there is no way to do more challenging work/move up. The stress is low and so are the hours, but the work output isnt very high either because those grads dont know what they dont know. So you end up coaching a lot and its just Not Good to be experienced there.

        For me this job is a waypoint and I am passing through on my way to somewhere else. It gets me some experience in some sectors I am missing, but clarified some other stuff for me and helped me out of a tight spot last year. But my buddy (an older gentleman who came out of retirement and is also bored stiff) said it best: “its like a college course that has no grades and never ends”. I will never get a sense of accomplishment there or be driven to achieve more because there is no push. So back to the market we go after Christmas.

        Now, for your situation, if you are learning and getting what you want out of the place then great! That can always change but potentially pay attention to where those folks are leaving to – bigger or smaller companies? more challenging work? different industry entirely? so that you have an idea of what to keep in mind and look out for when you are ready to leave. Its like an emergency preparedness kit – you may like where you are but sometimes the sh*t hits the fan out of your control and you need to take what you’ve got and bail.

    4. JulieBulie*

      Keep your eyes open, but don’t be so eager to find trouble that you’ll see something that isn’t there.

      Your coworkers might think the company’s strategic direction is bad, or they might feel that the pay is too low compared to similar places in the area, they may be bored or worried that the job looks weak on their resume, or they might not see a good career path for themselves. They might be unhappy with the work/life balance.

      Or, it could be toxic in some way you haven’t detected yet – though in my experience, six months is plenty of time to observe something like that. There’s also the fact that none of your ex-coworkers have told you anything to make you think it’s toxic.

      Different people like different things. It could be as simple as that. It could be that you are exactly where you need to be at this moment in your life.

      1. Bostonian*

        I agree with this completely. There might not really be anything there! At my current job, I couldn’t give you 1 criticism for the first 2 years I was here, and I was kind of nervous waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I would always hear second- and third- hand about how other people were unhappy (usually within my department, but in a different role from mine).

        Now, there are a couple of things that bug me, but nothing that comes even close to being a deal-breaker. And now that I know what the other coworkers were/are complaining about, it seems kind of petty. My previous job was unhealthy in so many ways that I *really* don’t care now that the most controversial thing here is that Jane got a celebration party when she published a book, but all Henrietta got was an email congratulations when she got her MPH.

        All that to say, it’s OK to be happy at your job even though others see it as a stepping stone.

      2. Wintermute*

        I second the pay-rate thing. Consider that as entry-level you might not realize this.

        My work has this going on, they promote from within so people can go from customer service call center to network operations or another technical department in a few years (it took me 3). But if you continue to advance your skills that amazing pay for someone that started out 3 years earlier making 13 an hour and is now at 65k a year looks less stellar when you have 3 or 4 years of experience in an in-demand field, and some highly-demanded industry certifications (Cisco, etc). You could get a 10k or more raise by leaving once you have 3-4 years experience.

    5. NoodleMara*

      If you start getting more high level responsibilites, I’d keep an eye out. For me, curent job was great if a bit tiring until I started working on higher level projects. Then I realized there are some things in legal grey areas that I don’t approve of. That’s why I’m trying to leave. I started here as an intern for two summers and have been working here three and a half years. I only got more responsibility in the past year.

      Don’t worry too much about it, but it never hurts to keep an ear out

    6. LAI*

      My last job was one that I thought I was going to want to stay in long-term. I felt that way for several years in the job. However, it eventually became clear that there were no advancement opportunities – no real opportunity for a promotion or pay increase. Even though I loved what I was doing, I eventually felt like I had to start looking outside. Not everyone felt that way though – there were people who had been doing the same work for the same pay for 20 years and didn’t seem to have a problem with it.

    7. WerkingIt*

      I was at a job like this once. Everyone under 40 never stayed more than 2 years but everyone over 40 had been there like 20 years. Around the 8-month mark I was struggling every day. Like literally head in hands at my desk. And everyone else said the same thing. There were fundamental leadership problems, but the leaders — i.e. The people who had been there 20 — were the problem and weren’t affected by the problems like low pay, lack of vacation time, limited flexibility, no room for growth or training (they were at the top already), crappy equipment (because of course they had new computers and the rest of us were sharing a Tandy)… They were wearing blinders to all the issues. Didn’t even have an exit interview process. They thought we were the problem. That we weren’t committed to the mission or that they just hired the wrong person.

      You may just be more easy going or committed. But keep your eyes open. In my experience, a lot of turnover is a bad sign.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Tandy.
        There’s a word I haven’t heard in a while.
        I’m bringing that one back into my vocabulary.

    8. Nervous Accountant*

      Oh this is interesting.

      My company has high turnover. We employ mostly new graduates, but some with experience as well.

      I’d say that a lot of people left because they were unhappy with the type of work that we’re doing, unrealistic and unreasonable metrics, and crap pay. The few odd people complained about the hours, which in that case they need to get out of this field But in terms of the work, it’s legit less actual tax/accounting work and more talking on the phone. Many of us are on the phones for literally 6-7 hours a day and are expected to put in extra time to answer all calls and emails within 24 hours. The most common complaint is that we have more clients per accountant than we can actually handle.

      For the few that have been here long term, htey have been promoted, and I think they’re actually great at their jobs. But the newer ones jump ship in a few months/year.

      The majority I talk to also have long term goals of starting their own business after a few years, using the knowledge and skills they gain here, which I think is pretty vallid.

      My reasons for staying for so long was that I was always temp so I needed a long term experience. Plus I really really wanted/needed the stability so I was willing to do whatever this company required and met their ridiculous quotas. I just recently got promoted but I’m looking now.

      My reason for explaining why there’s high turnover in my company is because I was intentionally keeping my eyes closed to this. I knew there was high turnover and why, and I knew my boss didn’t like me, but I focused on my own goals. For a long time everyone said I should leave and look for something new but I wasn’t ready. I am now.

      My advice would be–if there’s nothing wrong with you r place, nothing wrong in staying where you are, as long as it meets your goals. and hey, there’s nothign wrong with having a goal that’s more “I want to stay here for some time”.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      It’s always wise to watch what is going on around you. And you can do that and still like your job.

      However, there is nothing wrong with your staying while others leave. There are advantages, you will rise up in seniority quicker, you may be given some of the plum tasks, and you may have the boss’ ear because you were one of the ones who stayed put.

      Some jobs/workplaces are a stepping stone and the company realizes it. While others might be ready to move on, you might have very strong reasons to stay put. I’d suggest staying until you find a stronger reason for moving on.

    10. Winger*

      I work at a large and well-known organization in our industry. Lots of people want to work here. But the turnover is extremely high. Examining why we can’t seem to keep staff for more than 18 months actually opens up a lot of interesting insights into our entire industry. It’s definitely a good idea to keep your eyes and ears open and do your own (well informed) analysis of what’s driving people away.

    11. Chaordic One*

      Yes you should be on alert for whatever is driving out your coworkers and also for better opportunities elsewhere. My last job was one of those places with a reputation for doing excellent work and we had very satisfied and happy clients. However, we also had very high rates of turnover.

      Over time additional tasks and duties were added to job descriptions. The business had a very successful marketing campaign and was attracting more and more new business, but there weren’t any additional people there to perform the extra duties and people burnt out rapidly. Also, there was generally very little in the way of financial recognition of all of the extra work we’d taken on. We were processing at least 25% more information than just 3 years earlier, but one year there weren’t any raises at all and after that just 2 and 3% annual raises that didn’t even keep pace with the cost of rising health insurance premiums. It was like they were balancing their budget on the backs of the employees.

      After a couple of years most people realized that, while a few people managed to live their dreams there, for most of us, while the mission of the company was great, in practice it was very unrewarding. If you were lucky you might be able to spin the experience you gained there as something that could lead to something better. I remember a department head who quit her stressful job there and made almost as much money working as a receptionist at a veterinary clinic, that’s how bad it was.

  4. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Does your office/work place decorate for the holidays or season changes? Do people decorate their offices/cubes?

    1. Wing Commander Floofengarten*

      All the cubes in my department are decorated; one cube has a giant chicken wire sculpture of a unicorn straddling the wall.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      We don’t do much in the summer, but I decorate the lobby in the fall and at Christmas (thankfully we have management that still allows this). In the cubical farm, they sometimes put things in their cube and at the common tables. It always looks nice and cheery.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Our building puts up odd colored trees so they can’t be construed as “Christmas Trees.” Last year was a purple tree and the year before was orange. We also have cube decorating contests.

    3. Amber Rose*

      My supervisor loves Christmas more than chocolate. We have a 12 foot massive tree that everyone spends half a day setting up every year, and the lunchroom gets covered in streamers and stuff. But we don’t really do the other holidays.

      I have an assortment of plushie Christmas ornaments I set up around my desk. I tried to string lights around my cubicle last year, but they kind of… lit on fire. So I think I’ll just stick to the ornaments.

        1. Amber Rose*

          It’s not that much of a story. I plugged the lights in under my desk, but like half of them were out. So I was thinking I’d see if I could find the broken bulb and swap it out, which is when I noticed the smoke. I thought it was dust at first (this stuff sits in boxes for ages) so I ignored it but then I noticed the line felt kind of warm, and when I looked at the smoky bit again it was on fire. :D

          It was great though, because my neighbor was nearby watching me do all this, and I was all calm like “oh hey, a fire” and he panicked and ran for the hills. It wasn’t much more of a fire than you get on a match and went right out when I unplugged the thing.

    4. Snark*

      I hacked up a calendar full of old-school WPA National Parks posters and decorated by cubeffice with them. I work in a relentlessly gray room that is the precise shade of mild depression and ennui, and bright, bold primary colors everywhere is a huge mood-booster. And I brought in a few fake plants, for greenery.

      Didn’t notice much in the way of holiday decor.

      1. Work Wardrobe*

        I work in a relentlessly gray room that is the precise shade of mild depression and ennui
        …….

        This is some beautiful wordsmithing.

        1. Artemesia*

          Wish I had read this before painting our bedroom ‘soul suck grey’ — had to repaint it crimson after 6 most.

    5. Emily S.*

      There’s only minimal decoration in the lobby for Christmas. As in, a single Santa figurine with a little wreath. Nobody changes their cubicles.

      I prefer it this way — previously, an overzealous colleague would put tinsel around the lobby walls, which would get ALL OVER the floor and chairs.

    7. Loopy*

      I’ve only seen anything for Christmas. My company does a tree in the lobby but not much else. We can decorate our cubes but almost no one does. I did a little bit one year but then I skipped it the next.

      I love Christmas but I understand not everyone wants to walk through Christmas land for an entire month so I’m okay with it.

    8. esra (also a Canadian)*

      We’ve still got Pride and Canada Day flags up, I think people just like having some colour in the office.

    9. Another Rosamond*

      We have an open-ish cube farm style office. My favorite part of the holidays is people will wrap their cube in wrapping paper – big presents everywhere! One of my Jewish coworkers used Hannukah paper for hers – it was lovely.

      Last year, one department decorated their whole pod to be different parts of Stars Hollow from Gilmore Girls. It was awesome, and just-holiday-enough (with the snow everywhere) to fit in well

    11. Aphrodite*

      I love to decorate my home for fall (October 1 to Friday night of Thanksgiving weekend) and Christmas (from Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend to December 28 or 29). But with so much time spent at work, I like to do it there too.

      I don’t go all out as I prefer a more minimal rather than over-the-top look but I am considering buying a champagne-colored Christmas tree for work and then keeping it for myself. (At home now, I have a lipstick red one.)

      But I love decorating for these holidays and as I get closer to retirement and am itching and occasionally desperate to get out I think making myself happy by decorating at work too will do me good.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      My first year at Exjob, we had a huge competition to decorate cubes/aisles and a giant potluck. They never did it again while I was still working there, though we often had informal food days. I don’t usually bother to do anything like that on my own. Other people did, however.

      At OldExjob, we did decorate the office with a Christmas tree and some evergreen garlands up front. Guess who had to do it every year?

    13. Angela's Back*

      At my last job, there was an Ecumenical Tree on permanent display in one particular suite that would get decorated for holidays throughout the year with appropriate colored Mardi Gras beads and assorted other ornaments. We would do the big ones like Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, but also stuff like Valentine’s Day, Mardi Gras (I mean obviously), St. Patrick’s Day (BIG St. Patrick’s parade in my Southern town, go figure), Memorial Day/4th of July, and Napoleon’s birthday :D

    14. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Our office goes ALL out for Halloween. Enough that staff who don’t celebrate Halloween for religious reasons take the day off. :/

    15. Alli525*

      At my old corporate-office-building in midtown NYC, they only decorated for Chrismukkah, but it was GORGEOUS. We were in a historic building so all the archways were festooned with expensive-looking garland and ribbons, and there was a really beautiful 6-foot-tall menorah to one side of the security desk. I don’t recall seeing a tree but I could be mistaken on that.

      Now I work for a college, so the RAs will decorate semi-seasonally, but not much else. I have several fake mini-trees that I salvaged when my first post-college workplace went out of business, so I’ll stash a couple on my desk but otherwise keep my Christmas Explosion (TM) confined to my apartment.

    17. Kelly*

      I decorate the sh*t out of my cube for Halloween, since it’s my favorite holiday. I have xmas lights on my fake palm tree all year round, but that’s it.
      Kelly

    18. KR*

      I don’t think my technician co-workers have in the past but I plan on buying some cheesy fall and Christmas/holiday themed decorations. Just little things. In old job we did everything on white boards so I usually drew an elaborate christmas tree and star of David on the white board and put up paper snow flakes in our office.

    19. kittymommy*

      Uh my old office I used to, more than here. Mainly cling stickers and tchokies for the holidays (and a couple of holiday themed beanie babies my mom had). Now it’s primarily Christmas and a holiday themed candy dish, if I have it. I do change my coffee mug by season/holidays!

    20. not so super-visor*

      we can decorate but only if the decorations don’t exceed the cubicle height (on top of the cube walls) and can’t be outside of the cubicle. Also, we share desks, so the third shift deskmate has to agree to it.

      1. officegrinch*

        People have some desk decorations (lots of plants) but its been cleaned up a lot from the original office. Before we moved, we were in the same space for 20+ years and people pack-ratted in a way that just read as super unprofessional to me. However, I work best with minimal visual clutter.

        The holiday decorations make me feel somewhat grinchlike, plus we have a christmas rat contest where people can find hidden christmas rats (like from the nutcracker, I guess) around the office. Whoever wins I always think “that person does not have enough to do”.

    21. TheCupcakeCounter*

      We decorate for Christmas with a couple of really nice trees and a lot of poinsettias. You are allowed to decorate your cube (within reason) for whatever season/holiday you want.

    22. Optimistic Prime*

      We have one person on our team who is really into Halloween, so we decorate for that. And then we generally put up some lights for the winter holidays, but last year we forgot to take them down so they have literally been up all year.

    23. Bagpuss*

      We have a tree in reception for christmas, and some decorations in the window. There’s a glass wall behind the reception desk and all the christmas cards which come addressed to the company rather than to any individual are stuck up on there.

      This summer we sponsored our local Pride event so we had rainbow bunting in the windows for that.

      Some people decorate their offices – I don’t, personally, but that’s mostly because I don’t put decorations up until Christmas Eve, so it would only be for one day, for work!

    24. Specialk9*

      The company does decorate, big-time. But only in the most token way for all the Indian workers and their holidays. And, even in a heavily Jewish town, and with at least one very Jewish C-level, they try but miss in winter. Big elaborate winter holiday displays that are ostensibly non-specific on religion, but it’s all actually Christian. Like Christmas trees with blue and white balls, but no candles. Thanks?

      Muslim religious holidays are utterly ignored, as far as I’ve seen. Which is weird, we have at least one Muslim-country-of-origin C-level too. Though it’s possible I’m missing the signs.

      Halloween brings out a competition like I have never seen before, or even imagined. (Previously, my time was all charged to specific client tasks – holiday stuff was pretty curtailed as a result.) People bring in kids to trick or treat, and the halls get turned into themed… Wonderlands is the best word. It’s pretty wild.

  5. straws*

    I recently had a conversation with my boss about hiring where he said that he was told that cover letters are becoming passé. That hasn’t been my impression at all, although plenty of applicants forego providing one when requested. What is everyone’s experience with this—are cover letters becoming a thing of the past? If so, what is (effectively) used instead?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There have been been people claiming that for at least 10 years. Media outlets also like to run stories claiming it. It’s not true. There are certainly hiring managers who don’t care much about them, but there have always been those.

      1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

        I was speaking to a senior in college yesterday and his professors were telling him to forgo cover letters, too! (I said, no no no, I promise.)

        1. Frozen Ginger*

          A cover letter is more likely to help than hurt even in a situation where it’s optional.

          Also, when was the last time those professors did a job hunt outside academia (where your CV generally speaks for itself)?

          1. rj*

            You need a cover letter for academic jobs too – they have a different format than other kinds of cover letters. Professors are notoriously out of touch, especially if they are in their first and only job and got it 15+ years ago. (I am one – academia has changed significantly in that time).

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it may depend on your industry. The first time I applied for a job at a startup, I saw there was no place to submit a cover letter, only a résumé, and I have friends who work in tech and have told me they never submit a cover letter when applying for jobs. I work in education, and I’m pretty sure your résumé will be thrown away if you apply for a job at a school and don’t include a cover letter.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yep, tech is a field where it may not matter (although I’ve also talked to managers in IT who say that they do want them so it seems to vary even within the field).

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          It doesn’t matter to me (I lead a data science team). For the most part I don’t even read the cover letters.

          1. A Person*

            I don’t know – I’ve been hiring in tech analytics and I definitely give weight to a well written cover letter. Still depends on the person and I can’t imagine it hurting if it’s well written.

        2. Wintermute*

          Tech is way more about hard skills than soft ones, and attracts people that don’t schmooze well. Either you’re a Certified Tea Administrator or you don’t, either you’re a Chocolate-certified Teapot Architect or you’re not. If you claim to know Java they can test you by asking questions about messy things and seeing how you choose to fail (the archetypal example is multiple-inheritance , which Java can’t do well, how do you implement the classes for teapots that are also tea kettles and need the properties of both?). Also, the field attracts a lot of people that don’t speak English as their first, or even second, language, and to be honest a lot of managers see no problem with someone that doesn’t communicate well in writing if their technical work is superior.

          Consultancies may want them more though, roles where written and verbal communication is a big part of what you’ll be doing besides just managing TaaS (that’s Teapots as a Service) implementations.

          It’s a good opportunity to stand out though.

        3. Quirk*

          I think this may vary by area.

          In tech hubs where a lot of companies are competing for talent, people with in demand skills don’t apply for jobs, they get headhunted.

          And once you get used to having to hunt your talent, having it come to you is a tiny bit suspicious, and the more effort they are putting in the more you wonder what red flags you’re missing that are making them unpalatable to the rest of the market. Why are they knocking on your door rather than discarding the job specs they don’t like and indicating the companies they approve of can ring them back?

          If you genuinely are doing something very different from everyone else and they’re well informed on your speciality and clear as to why they want to work with you, that is of course a positive. If though they’re enthusing about something worthy but dull that many companies do, that’s not.

          In places where good techies have less options I imagine the dynamic changes, and new graduates aren’t coveted in the same way so putting effort into applying wouldn’t raise any questions for me. On the other hand I would think other in demand fields might work similarly.

      2. straws*

        That could be. My boss reads a lot of tech blogs. We certainly don’t receive a lot of cover letters, but we do ask for them. At minimum, it’s a good indicator of the ability to follow instructions and not be completely incoherent while communicating. I value both of those in any employee for any role, so I see no reason to quit asking.

        1. SFKiwi*

          I recruit for a tech company and I always look for cover letters. They’re not essential and I’ve hired candidates that didn’t submit a cover letter, but I would always recommend that job seekers include one. Why pass up the opportunity to sell yourself and show your personality?

      3. esra (also a Canadian)*

        We more or less consider your email to be your cover letter. I think where it’s confusing people is that yea, you don’t necessarily need a formatted cover letter, but you do at least need to have the body of the email serve that same purpose.

      4. PB*

        Yep. I work in higher ed. If you don’t submit a cover letter, your application goes straight to the virtual round file.

        3. Slantwise*

          I was just hired for an administrative professional position in higher ed.

          I was required to submit a cover letter through an online application system. Right before the first round interview, I checked the application site to remember what I had written for the cover letter… and I realized I accidentally uploaded my list of references where I should have uploaded my cover letter.

          That means either they didn’t notice or didn’t care that I didn’t actually provide a cover letter. And hired me anyway. So I guess YMMV for cover letters even when they’re required.

      5. TX CPA*

        I don’t think they are a big thing in accounting either, at least corporate accounting. Not sure about Big4. I don’t remember having ever written one when applying for a job.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      I recently spent the time writing a cover letter for a position (not from scratch, but still invested some time). When I was applying for the position there were a few pages you had to go through. I clicked next, next, next until BAM I had submitted an application. Didn’t even get a chance to attach a cover letter. No option. Time wasted.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I hate that!
        If I can see it coming, say if they only have the option to upload one document and there’s no other place to paste or attach a cover letter, I make the cover and my resume all one document and save it as a PDF. But like you said, sometimes you can’t tell until it’s too late.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        Even though you weren’t able to submit your cover letter, succinctly getting your thoughts together about your professional life was a useful exercise. You are probably better able to talk about your experience, and how it might apply to various positions. That’s a good thing.

    4. Southern Ladybug*

      If I don’t ask for a cover letter, those who send one automatically are higher on my interest list. When I do ask for one, and don’t receive one, those application are usually discounted since they couldn’t follow directions (with exceptions made for exceptional resumes…though I definitely factor in the no cover letter in the evaluation. They may just get a screening call when otherwise they wouldn’t have.). My most recent hire was on the bubble based on resume for a screening call. The cover letter was very, very good – so I put the individual on the list. The individual was an awesome interview and pushed themselves to the in-person stage….and was our first choice for hire.

      1. Southern Ladybug*

        I should add they were on the bubble based on years of experience etc. We had other applicants with more experience apply, which is why on paper they weren’t at the top originally….but this person really shined and showed their potential in the letter and the interviewing process and the others were just so-so.

        1. Shadow*

          How would you defend interviewing/hiring someone who was far less qualified if you were ever accused of discrimination?

          I mean it’s pretty hard to defend your decision if you’re ever challenged by someone who falls into a protected category who has far more qualifications.

          1. Wintermute*

            This is where bias-protection strategies come into play. If you strip names from resumes before sending them to evaluators, for example. You can prove you are making good-faith efforts to avoid any bias and you take equal-opportunity seriously.

            Also, courts recognize businesses have a right to make hiring decisions based on intangible factors and their personal feelings about candidates, that is not an EEOC violation. What is a violation is using impermissible factors.

            The onus is on the allegator to prove bias occured, not on the company to do the impossible and prove it didn’t. Smart policies, a diverse workforce (it’s powerful to be able to say ‘look we hire a LOT of people from all categories, this guy was just a tool’), and intelligent use of anti-bias best practices (stripping names and addresses, randomized reviewing, a diverse interview panel, cultural bias and implicit bias training for hiring managers, etc) are great defenses. the BEST defense is making sure no impermissible questions are asked, and to advise people that bring these things up spontaneously (I’ve heard of people trolling for EEOC suits that will inject impermissible topics into the interview, like bringing up and expounding on religion just so they can turn around and sue saying they were denied for being religious) explicitly that you don’t consider such factors in your interviewing and you’d prefer to stick to business topics.

            the long and short of it is courts do not simply apply math and decide who you must hire based on the number of qualifications.

          2. Cascadia*

            There is also such a thing as being too qualified for a job, especially an entry level job. If someone is going to leave within a short period of time because I know this work is too easy for them, it’s not as good of an investment for us who have to train somebody.

      2. straws*

        This is exactly how I operate as well. I find that when I do make an exception for a great resume without the requested letter, they fall short in other ways during the interview process as well. Our 2 top candidates for our last hire probably wouldn’t have made it to the short list on their resume alone. We had 3 “finalists” for that role, and the person with the most closely-aligned resume to the job posting was #3. The final hire has been amazing, and he may not have even been interviewed if not for his wonderful cover letter.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This doesn’t really sit right with me. I believe in following the directions of an application process, so if there is no request for a cover letter, I’m not going to send one.

        1. MissGirl*

          I agree. It’s like you’re playing game with someone who you’ve never explained the rules to. You’re punishing people for giving you what you asked.

        2. Wintermute*

          I think that this is more of a test of workplace norms. Which is problematic of course because it biases against people that might not have an intuitive understanding of these things (like people that don’t come from a white-collar background and all their family got jobs with no resume just an application) or got bad advice from misguided career centers that employ people that read too many thinkpieces and talk to too few real hiring managers, but that is an uphill battle to fight.

          The assumption is it’s the norm, if they don’t say anything you do the norm, unless requested otherwise.

        3. Slantwise*

          I have similar beliefs about following the directions to the letter. I’m sure some people see it as a sign that you’ll go “above and beyond” in your job, but I think that “above and beyond” mentality can actually waste time (yours and others) rather than make a positive contribution.

          I used to be a teacher, and if I ask you for a three-page paper, I really don’t want you to go “above and beyond” and write a ten-page paper.

    5. Cookie*

      For whatever it’s worth, there are many jobs with the state government where I work that won’t allow you to submit anything other than a resume. The reason being the choice should be based on education/skills/experience that should be evident in your resume and not based on something in your cover letter that’s impermissble to consider.

    6. T3k*

      There’s a well known tech company nearby that I’ve been trying to get in with for years and they have one of the simplest job application sites: literally just wants name, address, portfolio (if design job) and a place to upload resume, no place for a cover letter or even to add a note. I finally decided I’d try to submit a letter as part of my resume file and I’m 99% certain that’s what finally got me an interview with them.

    7. Mazzy*

      No! I have a strong opinion on this one. Sooooooo many resumes look almost identical, do hundreds of candidates really expect me to do all of the digging to find out why they are applying and what makes them uniquely qualified? The issue is that so many people are applying to every job or many jobs and haven’t read the ad, and writing a cover is a sure way to show that you’re in the group that did indeed read the ad and know what you’re applying to, at a minimum. Also, for me, especially for low level positions, knowing why the person applied and guaging their interest level is huge

      1. Shadow*

        I could see where cover letters might make the difference if you have tons of similar resumes and need to decide who to call.

        But I can’t imagine that a cover letter could ever make someone more qualified to do the job unless the job involves similar writing.

        1. Mazzy*

          Well….at that point you’re just trying to pick which 20 or so resumes to put on the top, not picking the most qualified yet. Again, I can’t mind read what the candidate is thinking if they don’t include all materials. I’m sure I’m not hired the absolutely most qualified person in a few cases, but then again, I can’t interview and call and hunt down every possible candidate in the world.

          1. Shadow*

            why wouldn’t you start with the most qualified/accomplished resume app then eliminate and work your way backwards until you’re left with a match?

            1. Mazzy*

              Because when I’ve started with resumes first, and not cover letters, I’ve spoken with candidates who don’t remember applying, or I have had to sell them the position, or they aren’t really interested, or they 100% claim they never applied – I’m pretty sure Indeed and Linkedin and such send “applicants” that aren’t really applicants.

            2. Cloud Nine Sandra*

              Resumes are all laid out differently, in my experience, it’s work to scan each one and figure out how qualified/accomplished they are. Unless everyone has the exact same job title from the exact same company, I need to figure how to compare 3 years as a Teapot Cooler vs 4 years as a Teapot Refrigeration Specialist. How do you create a ranking in that situation?

              1. Shadow*

                Yes it’s work but u should use your minimum and preferred experience/skills as the baseline and to compare candidates

                its really risky to hire someone that has far fewer relevant skills/experience/education without a really good reason

                1. Zathras*

                  You seem to be coming at this as if “experience” and “skills” from a resume are quantifiable in a way that makes it really clear which candidates are “more qualified”, but that’s frequently not the case.

                  I think it was a comment here that put it really well – some people get 5 years of experience, and some people get one year of experience 5 times, either because the role is poor fit or because they don’t make enough of an effort to improve and grow. The cover letter can give you a chance to see a bit about how the person thinks about the role. For a lot of roles you’re much better off hiring the person with 2 years experience who learns fast and works hard, vs. the person with 5 years experience who coasts along doing just enough to not get fired.

                  The cover letter can also be a way to glimpse that while the 5-year person with skill X did that thing maybe three times a year, but the 2 year person did it daily – so actually the 2 year person has more experience in that thing.

                2. Shadow*

                  Yes that’s true but you will have a very hard time trying to convince anyone by saying “I know he doesn’t meet my minimum requirements but his cover letter makes him more qualified than the the person in the protected category who meets/exceeds them.”

    8. Shadow*

      I don’t really pay much attention to cover letters because I’ve never seen one that made me re-think my evaluation of the app/resume. And I don’t think it’s a very good indicator of how you’d write on the job.

    9. Optimistic Prime*

      I will say that employers give mixed messages. I work in tech, where a lot of applications either don’t include a place for applicants to attach a cover letter or explicitly say that they don’t want or need a cover letter. For example, Google’s very bare-bones online application says “Cover letter/other notes (optional). We think your work speaks for itself, so there’s no need to write a cover letter.” Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon all tell you to upload a resume and allows you to upload up to 3, but there’s no place for you to upload a cover letter (unless you do like I did and combine your cover letter and resume into one PDF document).

      However, I’ve chatted with a couple of hiring managers from these companies (I work at a peer tech company) and it appears that at least some of them still expect cover letters from candidates, and a few I talked didn’t even know that their company’s HR isn’t providing a spot for cover letters anymore. I found this out because one mentioned in passing that she was surprised at the number of candidates who flat out didn’t include one, and I pointed out that the application portal doesn’t make it easy for you to submit one.

    10. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I look at a cover letter has free advertising and an opportunity to showcase your talents. Why would you ever not send one?

    11. MissGirl*

      I recently went through the hiring process for a more tech position and hardly anyone wanted cover letters. In many cases, there wasn’t even a link to upload a cover letter to.

    12. Harryv*

      I read it if it is there but won’t ding it if there isn’t and there is a detailed resume. If the resume doesn’t paint a good picture and you claim you have 10+ years of experience but don’t have a CV, then you will get tossed.

  6. BRR*

    Burnout. How long did it take to recover from burnout and were you able to recover while at the job that burned you out? I’ve been at my current job for almost two years and started experiencing signs of burnout almost immediately due to several reasons including a super long commute, a poor manager, and an unreasonably high workload. This peaked a couple of months ago and thankfully has let up some as I can work from home a couple of days a week, I got a new manager who seems good so far, and my workload has lightened somewhat.

    While these are hopeful signs, I have strong, lingering symptoms of burnout. I have employed every tip I could from searching the internet but feel like I need several months off to recharge which isn’t possible. Has anybody been able to recover from burnout while at the job that caused the burnout (I’m looking for a new job but openings are far and few between)? How long did it take to start feeling like yourself again? Thanks!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I recovered from burnout fairly quickly (a week or two?), but not at the job I was burning out at. I had to recover at the new job.

      1. Sled Dog Mama*

        I too had to change jobs to get anywhere on the feeling of being burned out, but as far as recovery? I see the light at the end of the tunnel and it’s been 8 months. Now I should say I have some extra health challenges that get worse when I get tired and run down (and burned out) so it probably takes some extra time for me to get to where I consider recovered.
        The biggest thing for me was (finally!!!) at new job being able to take a totally unplugged vacation, no taking the laptop to log in remotely, no calls, nothing. Just focusing on me and my family.

    2. CatCat*

      I never really recovered from burnout at the job that burned me out, even when they started easing back on my number of cases. There was high turnover and I was good at the job so I always feared getting too much higher level work piled on me again. When I switched jobs, I recovered really fast. It was amazing, like a load had been lifted from me.

    3. Jbean*

      It depended. Project related with one or two months of intensive, stressful work? 1 or 2 weeks. Project related with 3-5 months of intensive, stressful work? 1-2 months. Work related (stressful, poor management, difficult coworkers, long hours, etc.) over a long period of time? 1-2 years. I’m just coming out of burn out from old job that I left 2 years ago – and I took 3 months off to travel the Caribbean after I left that job. :-)

      Take care of yourself first.

      1. Kalamet*

        I’m glad this isn’t just me. I had a six month rough patch at work last year, and I still don’t feel like my normal self. Part of it is knowing that the same mistakes that led to the rough patch could definitely happen again, and folks here really don’t care.

    4. Lora*

      Ugh, from the worst job that ever burned me out, I was consulting for about…hmm let me think…must have been 15 months of more or less, during which time I was pretty much my own boss and only had to worry about grumpy clients. There were some projects where I just worked from home, some where I had to go to the site, some where I put in long hours, but I was being paid hourly and when clients were really egregious I told them if they didn’t shape up I would take my toys and go home. Which is, let me tell you, INCREDIBLY liberating: even for $200/hour, you don’t get to scream and yell at me like a douchebag. Calm the heck down, jeez. And after that I took what was basically an easy job that I could do in my sleep for two years, but I was bored and ready to do something challenging about 12 months into that one. So two and a half years till all was said and done. But including the time I spent in Burnout Job, it took four solid years to get back where I was professionally when I left the last awesome job I enjoyed, and I only left for a giant pile of money (40% raise). I was super-picky about the job I took after the Easy Job, and looked for a whole year to find a company that would be a good fit.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I had to change jobs but I think if all of the causes of the burnout are changed, then you could potentially recover while at the job that burned you out. But

      I think the recovery period might be proportional to the amount of time you spent in the job that burned you out. I took a year to recover after I switched jobs almost a decade ago because a lot of the habits and thought patterns I developed at the burnout job became so ingrained. For example, I was never able to take my vacation days at the burnout job and I did a lot of overtime. Even at the new job, I couldn’t bring myself to use my vacation if I didn’t have a “good enough” reason —
      relaxing wasn’t good enough — and I kept coming in a half-hour early everyday because that was my habit for many years.

    6. misspiggy*

      I got various opportunities in my old job to take good chunks of leave, but the problems weren’t fixed so the burnout came back pretty quickly. After leaving, recovering mentally took three or four years – I couldn’t look at my email without feeling sick. Physically, the effects have been much longer term, although complicated by an underlying health condition.

    7. SystemsLady*

      Taking two weeks off (my boss just handed those to me in consideration of all the overtime) all but did the trick for me. A week felt pretty therapeutic, but it just wasn’t enough. Following that by two weeks of a lighter workload and different client helped keep it from coming back.

      (My case was also a bit different because an extremely stressful and out of the ordinary project had ended by the time I took the vacation.)

    8. Valkyrie*

      Yes! It took about a year though. Mine was caused by a new owner/partner/manager , some rough staffing decisions and generally feeling like I was being nickled-and-dimed at work (new partner was weird about reimbursing mileage and declined my annual raise for dumb reasons). He ultimately left, our staffing leveled out, but work felt really chaotic for a while. I adore my boss, so I hung around out of loyalty, not self-interest, but it really worked out. I increased the frequency of my workouts and did a BIG self-care push. I also got to the doctor and was put on anti-depressants (I’ve been on them on and off since college, this was definitely a time I needed to be on). It all helped quite a bit. GOOD LUCK!

    9. katamia*

      A month and a half to six months, depending on the burnout. I’ve never been able to recover from it while still doing the same work, but luckily it’s my freelance work that causes the burnout, so I just stopped for a little while when I got too burned out.

    10. The Other Dawn*

      I was able to recover somewhat while being at the same job, but that was only because I had a meltdown and my boss finally let me hire someone to help me. At first it was my fault I was burned out because it took me a very long time (couple years) to speak up that I was completely overwhelmed; I was a rock star and had the drive to move up really fast and do All the Things. When I finally spoke up–after working really long hours, working from home, while on vacation ,etc.–, my boss told me that it’s not going to let up anytime soon and just deal with it. Um, OK. Many months later I finally had a meltdown when my mentor asked me how I was doing (Innocent question, right? Poor guy…). He then talked to my boss and they allowed me to hire someone. I recovered somewhat because I finally had a body to help me, but I still had a ton to do with little resources. It wasn’t until the company shut down a couple years later and I was out of work for a couple months that I truly recovered from it.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I found that self-care was absolutely critical. I would not have made it if I did not insist on setting a schedule and following it. For me it was probably a good year or so, but I had life stuff going on that did not help. Oddly, I felt like I could not leave until I got a bit better because I did not think I would make a good impression at a new place.

      It’s tough to come back from burnout because we have to learn to trust the employer all over again. It sounds like you can start to trust your new boss so this is in your favor.

    12. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Stepping out of the building of old job for the last time was the equivalent of 3 months off

    13. Bess*

      I typically take months to recover from the type of work stress you are describing…but some of that is in hindsight. Like five months later I’ll be like “oh I kinda want to start a new personal project instead of just lying on the couch after work! oh I guess I was still working through some stress, hmmm!”

      Typically I have found I need either an extended break (happened to be built into one job) or just a change in job. Sounds like a long break isn’t an option–any chance you can take a 4 day weekend or anything, somewhere totally out of contact with work? Not a “solution” but might allow some deeper rest than you’re getting.

    14. Cleo*

      I did recover from burnout while staying at the job that burned me out. I did it mostly by employing serious self care protocols and also recommitting to having a life outside work. (I feel like I’ve posted this story before on another open thread, but to quote my great grandmother, “it’s a good story – you’re going to hear it again.”)

      It helped that I was teaching at the time, so I had the summer off – not that teachers actually are totally off, but having 10 weeks where I could mostly set my own schedule helped tremendously. I took the summer to recommit to making my own art (I taught art and design) and then I committed to working on my own stuff a certain number of hours per week during the school year (like 2 or 3). And I also started meditating every morning. And I think I took up weight lifting. I did joke that I was spending so much time managing my stress that I didn’t have time for anything else, but it did actually work. And the following year, not only did I enjoy work more, I earned my first “exceeds expectations.”

    15. Chaordic One*

      I’ve never really fully recovered from the burnout I experienced at former-toxic-job. I had a short commute, so the real problems were poor management, an unreasonably high workload and conflict with other departments not doing their jobs and dumping on my department as well as a real lack of any meaningful recognition or even gratitude for the hard work I did.

      Even though it has been almost two years since I worked there, I still find myself getting angry about my experiences working there and how I was treated. The worst thing is that every once in a while I will run into former co-workers while I’m out shopping. With a few that I was close to, I’m honest about things, but with most of them I’m polite but cool. A couple of times I’ve run into former managers and I just don’t acknowledge them at all. One time I saw a former supervisor in a supermarket aisle, so I went down a different aisle.

    16. only acting normal*

      Hmmm. I sort of recovered in the same job, but only because I was too exhausted and depressed to look for a new one, and the job at least comes with good sick leave.
      The burnout was caused mainly by my boss and grandboss and piling more and more work and responsibility on me, with the carrot of reward always disappearing further into the distance. (People around me thought I was 2 levels more senior than I was, I was even being marked against more senior colleagues, but I was blocked from promotion for 3 years with the most BS reasons I’ve ever had the misfortune to hear). I burned out so badly I was off sick for 6 weeks with a horrendous chest infection and a major depressive episode. My colleague stepped up and took on leading my main project for a while, I still worked on it then took it back after the next milestone.
      My new boss and new grandboss (coincidence they changed, not design) were both great and supportive, and the rewards finally started materialising, along with a reduction in my ridiculous workload.
      I’m still in the same company, in a more senior job, but I have never felt the same about working here – in a way caring a bit less about the job and more about myself helps protect against another burnout.
      It’s probably unhealthy to stay, but the relatively niche industry and the lingering depression make moving on difficult.

    17. Working Rachel*

      I spent a good chunk of last year burnt out in a situation where I was, though not quite a one-woman show, basically alone in the amount of responsibility I felt and taking on way too much. I also had a really unpleasant coworker situation from about January to June this year. Now, I feel pretty much back to normal, though I’m having to re-learn how to trust my colleagues.

      Things that helped:
      – You probably can’t, but: Working two days a week for three months. Maybe in your situation the working from home will help, since it cuts out the commute.
      – Maybe more realistic: Completely unplugging from work any days that you are able to take off. No email, no other communication with work people, distracting yourself if you’re thinking about work stuff. Self-care in the ways that other people have mentioned–physical, mental, social, etc.
      – I was always passionate about my job and had a lot of good experiences with the work I do from the past, so I’ve been able to reconnect with that.
      – Changing the working conditions that were most responsible for the burnout: it sounds like much of this has happened for you. Great! I wonder if you might also be able to focus on different aspects of your job for a while, even if those aren’t the specific things that have been burning you out–if you’ve been spending a lot of time on teapots, can you focus more on coffeepots for a while? That might help teapots feel fresher when you go back to spending more time with them.

  7. Anonymous Educator*

    I’m looking for some terminology help (something like Dunning-Kruger effect, stereotype threat, gaslighting, etc.).

    Does anyone know if there’s a term for a situation in which your co-workers have to do some intensely laborious manual labor, you provide an automated solution that does 95% of what they did manually but in an automated way, and then they sort of seem grateful but also ask why your solution can’t do the other 5%?

    I should qualify this by saying it’s not necessarily my job to create this automated solution. This was a favor I thought would be helpful to my co-workers based on one’s request. It’s also automated based on information stored in a database (one whose data I don’t manage), and that database does not account for the extra 5% of information.

    Just curious if there’s a name for this phenomenon.

    1. Manders*

      I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re looking for because I don’t know what this task is, but there’s been a lot of research recently about how humans can’t really focus when they’re given a driverless car that sometimes randomly needs them to take the wheel. Basically, the human attention span can focus on the task at hand or totally ignore it, but people can’t be constantly alert in case of a very small chance of something going wrong.

      I also wonder what’s going on with that extra 5% of information–has your coworker explained why that has to be stored and dealt with differently? I can totally understand people pushing back a bit if they don’t really understand why that 5% of information is different.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I’m wondering why the employee wants to eliminate the last 5% of the task. Wouldn’t that eliminate their job? In that case, I would call the phenomenon downsizing.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          No, this task is not their primary job. It’s just an annoying thing they have to do once a year to make their lives easier, so I was trying to make that annoying part slightly less annoying.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I also wonder what’s going on with that extra 5% of information–has your coworker explained why that has to be stored and dealt with differently? I can totally understand people pushing back a bit if they don’t really understand why that 5% of information is different.

        Different co-workers. So one co-worker handles the database, and I don’t mess with that (I can take information out of the database as part of my job, but I don’t manage the data in the database). Another co-worker who uses (but doesn’t manage) the database asked for the scripted way to get information out.

        The person who manages the database is not in the group of people the automation helps.

        1. Owl*

          When you say “intensely laborious manual labor,” do you mean physically lifting things? Because that’s what I thought you meant but now I think you mean, like, data entry . . .

      3. Nancie*

        Interesting, I assumed it was 5% of the process that Anonymous Educator didn’t automate. Like, the excel macro can do all of the importing, formatting and saving, but you need to email the file yourself.

        I don’t know if there’s a term for it. I’d probably call it “looking a gift horse in the mouth”.

        I’d be very tempted to say something like “gosh, I’m sorry this solution doesn’t work for you. I guess I should uninstall it then!” — but I wouldn’t.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’d be very tempted to say something like “gosh, I’m sorry this solution doesn’t work for you. I guess I should uninstall it then!” — but I wouldn’t.

          Yes, especially because it’s not my job. I thought it was a favor, but no good deed…

        2. Jadelyn*

          I was just going to go with “your coworkers are a pack of ingrates who are taking your skills for granted”, but “looking a gift horse in the mouth” is much pithier.

        3. Specialk9*

          Why wouldn’t you say that about uninstalling the script? It actually seems like a reasonable response to ‘I did you a favor, using my time and knowledge, it made your life easier, and you complained’.

      4. Anonymous Educator*

        I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re looking for because I don’t know what this task is, but there’s been a lot of research recently about how humans can’t really focus when they’re given a driverless car that sometimes randomly needs them to take the wheel. Basically, the human attention span can focus on the task at hand or totally ignore it, but people can’t be constantly alert in case of a very small chance of something going wrong.

        No, it totally makes sense. I was just curious whether there was a name for it.

      6. Optimistic Prime*

        I find this to be soooooooo interesting, probably because I’m a human-factors researcher in technology. In this case, constant alertness isn’t what’s the problem; we do that all the time when we drive non-autonomous cars (or operate forklifts or power tools or any other dangerous machinery). It’s the task switching. Humans are bad at quickly switching tasks – even if the “task” is nothing to something. I love the way this Wired article put it:

        Imagine you’re watching the final moments of ‘The Shining’ when someone suddenly turns on the light and tosses you a Rubik’s cube. How quickly could you register what’s happening, let alone attempt to solve the puzzle? Now you see the challenge of the handoff.

        https://www.wired.com/2017/01/human-problem-blocking-path-self-driving-cars/

        This is why it’s my sincere (and self-serving, lol) belief that the way forward in technology isn’t just more developers and designers, but more behavioral scientists who can help us make sense of how we interface with all of this new technology and how to make it work in our lives.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I think in that analogy, it’d be less about someone tossing you a Rubik’s cube and more like you have the options of hand-cranking the projector the entire time or having it automatically project for most of the film and then the last few minutes you have to hand-crank.

        2. Manders*

          Thank you for clarifying! I’m fascinated by the field but, as I’m sure you can tell, not an expert in it. I’m also secretly rooting for widespread totally autonomous vehicles, because I’m a lousy driver and I would love to hand that task off to a machine (plus, some of the proposed ideas about all-electric autonomous vehicles available through an app are just incredibly cool, and would love a lot of my city’s current transit headaches).

        3. AcademiaNut*

          Yes!

          I sometimes have tasks at work where I set something running, wait 5-10 minutes, check the results and then set the next stage running. When I’m doing that, I can’t switch tasks with anything that requires mental effort – I can do a tedious but mindless task, but otherwise the mental effort to shift back and forth means I’m doing neither well.

    2. Anon and on and on*

      We named it after our co-worker, so I can’t share the name. It’s proprietary :)
      But yes, I created something to X and got from said co-worker, so you didn’t do Y.

      1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        Were they *complaining* that it doesn’t do Y, or only remarking/commenting/clarifying?

    4. Alice*

      This.

      I have a job where most of my day-to-day activities are about providing solutions through automation. (I work in IT at a non-IT company.) Without fail, even if I provide a solution that’ll make a software user’s job easier by 99%, they never fail to ask why the solution won’t work for the last 1%. I get why they want to know, but even when I explain why, I’ll still get push-back from the users saying they don’t want the solution if it won’t fix 100% of the problem. Very frustrating when they only want the solution if it basically thinks for them. Honestly, there’s probably always going to be that 1% or 5% that doesn’t happen automatically because there are always exceptions.

      If there’s a term for this, I’d love to know it.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Also frustrating because before you provided the 99% solution, they had to do the full 100% themselves. Maybe we should make up a term for this…

      2. Eva*

        The worst thing for me watching situations like this at my job is that the ones complaining that it doesn’t do that last 1% will then tank the entire implementation and get the IT solution scrapped, which puts us all back at square one. I’m about to lose my mind about it if it happens one more time.

        2. Engineer Girl*

          That’s a logical fallacy called black and white thinking or all or nothing thinking. If it isn’t 100% then it’s 0%.

      3. Rat in the Sugar*

        I think the “imperfect solution” fallacy might be what you’re looking for–that’s the term for when people believe that a perfect solution exists for a problem, so they reject anything that is even slightly less than that.

        On a more colloquial note, when I encounter people who act like this I like to say they are the princess with the pea–you put down a hundred mattresses and they still complain about the tiny little bump…

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Oh, maybe that’s it! I’ve heard the expression “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good” or something like that. That could apply, too, I guess.

        2. Rat in the Sugar*

          Gah, I see Shiara’s comment below that it’s actually the “perfect solution” fallacy, not “IMperfect solution”.

          Clearly my comment falls short of what a perfect comment could be and should therefore be deleted.

      4. Wintermute*

        I work with automation on the other side, I use automation products developed for my job by our automation engineer.

        I don’t WANT a tool that does 100% of the job. A certain telco we work with whose logo may or may not resemble a space station has a solution like that and about 50% of the time it gets it wrong and auto-closes our tickets requiring us to then escalate the situation and costing us hours of lost time to resolution.

        Automation cannot be intelligent enough to do the entire job better than an engineer but if you have an engineer do the most subjective or ideal for human intuition, experience and judgement 10%, then your automations can be amazing tools. The 99% solution that gets 4% wrong and causes 50% more work because of it is worse than the 95% solution that gets 0% wrong and doesn’t cause extra work.

      5. Triscuitoncheddar*

        Last mile solution.

        Like when communications companies upgrade their lines, but it’s the last mile (i.e. The part that runs to individual houses or businesses) that remains unchanged.

      6. Specialk9*

        Some of that may be because they don’t understand any of it, and so ««magic magic magic»» should end with perfection. Whereas if you were physically building something in front of them, they’d get, viscerally, the tradeoffs one makes. When it’s ««magic magic magic»» they think you should just be cleverer.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        +1

        In all fairness, this is helping well over a 100 people, and only a handful complained about the 5% still-manual parts, so it does restore my faith in humanity somewhat that the vast majority are extremely grateful.

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      This is a huge pet peeve mine. I automate 98% and am told it’s not really useful since it doesn’t do 2%. Well how about I not bother next time!

      Also new phenomenon with one boss is that I suddenly own the processes I automate. Even if error is user error sh*t falls on me cause I automated it. Very frustrating.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I think of it like blaming the toaster for under cooking your steak. Uh it’s your fault for putting steak in the toaster man. Toaster is working fine.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Oh, man! I am so putting steak in my toaster tonight. Don’t worry, I’ll make sure Phoenix Programmer gets all the credit for the idea!

        2. Shiara*

          “Program X is broken! It is displaying something incorrect!”

          Turns out program X is displaying exactly what is in the database, which is what Program Y correctly inserted into the database based on user input.

          Why yes, it has been a very long week chasing down supposed data issues/program bugs, why do you ask?

        3. Wee Sleekit*

          Thanks for the laugh! I can’t stop visualizing it… toaster goes ding! and steak kind of wetly shudders but does not at all pop up the way toast does.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Phoenix Programmer, I hear you on that. You take an existing process that you had nothing to do with and do some tweaks to make the person who is responsible have an easier time, and then suddenly someone else wants to make you the go-to person on that process… yikes!

        1. Jenny Next*

          I’ll see your “go-to person” and raise you a “person whose job it now is permanently”. And let’s top that off with “no reward, no raise, no promotion”.

          I’ll automate stuff for myself as I’ve always done, but I’ve learned not to share my programs with co-workers.

    7. Shiara*

      I don’t know that it’s official, but I’ve heard something similar to this described as the “perfect solution fallacy”, where a solution is rejected because it doesn’t compare to some nebulous, non-existent perfect solution, even though it would be an improvement over the current situation.

      As someone who writes software for a decidedly non-technical userbase, you have all my sympathy.

      My current gripe about our clients is that they want checks to ensure that they don’t mistype something, but they really only want mind-reading checks, because they don’t want to click through extra screens when they do something a bit weird that they really do intend, but also we need to make it so they can’t click through extra screens without reading them when they’re doing something a bit weird that they don’t intend.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, that sounds similar to what Rat in the Sugar suggested above. Thanks. I think that’s the term! Sometimes naming things can be such a psychological relief…

      3. veggiewolf*

        “My current gripe about our clients is that they want checks to ensure that they don’t mistype something, but they really only want mind-reading checks, because they don’t want to click through extra screens when they do something a bit weird that they really do intend, but also we need to make it so they can’t click through extra screens without reading them when they’re doing something a bit weird that they don’t intend.”

        Mine is that however many clicks we agree on, their ideal number is always two fewer. Who are these people who want everything on one screen in teeny-tiny characters they can’t read?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure what that would be called, but to the complainers I might say, “Good! You have identified a problem. Let me know when you figure out the solution.”

      This is why I didn’t offer ideas that don’t work all the time, because I would have had to clean up the parts that were missed. Currently, I face constant situations where A works unless you have conditions M or X. But there are exceptions to M with subcondition 1 or 2 then solution Z might actually work. It’s an exhausting way to go through the work day. I do see people getting upset with this type of reaction. Part of the problem is that they fail to realize how many times a day I have to calculate for exceptions and then exceptions to the exceptions. My hours don’t expand but the work load grows at an ungodly clip.

  9. JustaCPA*

    New manager here with one report. I have nto noticed one way or another re the corporate culture here but my report has a birthday coming up. I was just planning on taking her to lunch (my trat of course) Do you think thats sufficient or should I bring a card etc? Since I havent noticed it, I’m assuming people dont make a big deal out of birthdays here.

    2. Here we go again*

      Lunch is great! I would skip the card… It sets an expectation moving forward and is hard to keep up with if you happen to forget one year… Lunch is easy to plan on the fly.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I personally would not want to go to lunch with my boss, though I would appreciate the thought behind the gesture. (I like my boss and we have a good relationship, but it would feel a bit like my only hour away from my desk was now being turned into a semi-work hour in which I have to stay ‘on’ since it’s my boss.)

      Before planning lunch, make sure this is something she’s interested in doing, or ask how she prefers her birthday to be recognized.

      3. Lemon Zinger*

        This! I never want to share a meal with my boss. She’s a perfectly nice person, but I use my lunch hour to decompress from work.

      4. JustaCPA*

        I did ask her if she would like to go to lunch and mentioned a restaurant I know she likes. Her response seemed very appreciative and eager. FWIW, neither of us is hourly so it not like she has to clokc out or not get paid.

        1. Liz2*

          But that’s also a leading question. You didn’t say “I happen to notice it was your birthday, is there a way you prefer to celebrate or not?”

          You as the authority presented a single specific option, even a location. The authority differential automatically makes this impossible to give an unbiased response. She easily could think “He’s being generous, I need to do this or look like an ungrateful team member.”

          Cause if my boss came to me and said “How about lunch next Wed?” I would say “Wow yes sure!” and have a pleasant time but inside I would go “Ugh, no time to just enjoy what I want without caring if I get a drip of salad dressing on me.”

          They may of course really really want this and it IS a generous offer- but you have to think as the boss how you present options to those who can’t give truly free responses.

          1. Random Observation*

            I mean, you DO realize that lunch with your boss is a good way to get noticed? I have read about newly-minted MBAs who get recruited by Fortune 500 companies, and they accept on the condition that they can have lunch with the CEO once per year. Companies often oblige.

      5. who?*

        Agreed! Also, you have to think about the precedent you’re setting if you ever do get more reports.

        Personally I would prefer it if people ignored my birthday altogether. I celebrate with family and friends, and I don’t need that level of personal involvement from coworkers. But I am quite curmudgeonly.

    5. Zip Silver*

      Lunch works if you’ve only got the one employee. I have around 30 reports and I usually skip lunch, except for my team leads, but we do a monthly cake party for all the people having birthdays that month.

    6. Snark*

      Honestly? I wouldn’t even do the lunch, personally. Most of my managers have been like, hey, can I bring you a coffee for your birthday. I think it’s generally good to establish a culture where birthdays are warmly acknowledged but not made a big deal out of.

      1. Owl*

        Yeah, I’m sure it depends on the person, but for me, lunch is my time to relax and be alone. I wouldn’t really want to spend my birthday lunchtime one-on-one with my boss, where I would feel like I had to be “on” to some degree.

    7. Bored IT Guy*

      My birthday was yesterday. I got an email from my boss wishing me a happy birthday. I don’t expect (or want) anything more than that.

      1. Specialk9*

        Once, at one job, the (really nice) clients included me in the monthly birthday cake. I was really touched.

        But, I mean, I don’t even remember birthday emails from bosses, and I’ve had some great bosses.

        One alternative is a gift certificate for your employee. You mentioned a specific place, you could get her a gift cert there.

    8. Manager*

      At LastJob we celebrated birthdays with a cake and a card. At NewJob nobody even knew when anybody’s birthday was. I put their birthdays on my calendar and wish them a happy birthday. They are pleased that I make a point of doing that.

    9. JustaCPA*

      I should probably add that she had mentioned to me that ion the past she would go to lunch with the person who had my position about once a month. I’ve been here a few nmonths and frankly have just not had the time (and yeah, my lunch break is my time to get away too!) I figured since she had mentioned that to me and since I dont really plan on picking up on the monthly lunches, once a year would be a good compromise. :)

    10. Liz2*

      Ask first. Unless you’re already on good lunch terms, that may be exactly the opposite of what they want. As noted in an earlier thread this week, lots of people want ZERO birthday attention. To me the best birthday gift is an extra half or full day off. Or just give me a gift card.

    11. Random Citizen*

      I had off on my birthday, and my boss texted me gifs of kittens and bunnies in birthday hats. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ We have the kind of relationship where that was normal though (and I did the same thing on his birthday).

  10. Emilia*

    Not sure how standard a question this is, but: when you have a ‘work from home’ day, do you actually have to physically be at home? Assuming all you need to do your job is a laptop (and also assuming you take due diligence regarding confidential documents etc.), is it okay to go to a café or bookstore (or basically somewhere you prefer working in?)

      1. Emilia*

        In fact I find I concentrate better in a cafe-ish environment (leftover habit my uni days I guess), but wasn’t sure if that break some kind of WoH rule (this is the first job I’ve had that’s allowed that)

        1. AndersonDarling*

          My co-workers frequently work form coffee shops. But they can only work on items that aren’t confidential.

        3. LiveAndLetDie*

          I work from a local coffeeshop now and then to get a change of scenery from my home! As long as the internet connection is good and you can do the work you need to get done, it shouldn’t be an issue. If you’ve got conference calls it may be somewhat difficult with the background noise, but otherwise I can’t see why anyone would get huffy about it.

          The one thing I do always try to do when I do that is to give the shop that I’m sitting in for hours plenty of business — don’t be that guy that only buys one $2 cup of coffee all day!

    2. Kim Possible*

      I used to have a work from home day once a week at my old job, and frequently went to coffee shops! Also, the wifi was often faster than at my home.

      1. Specialk9*

        One can go to a coffeeshop and use a mobile WiFi hotspot. If that’s a regular thing, it’s way more secure.

    3. Andy*

      in my org work from home means that you had your workspace cert’d and so it’s assumed that you will be working at the home, and yet approved, work-space. That being said…we do go out to coffee shops occasionally when it’s highly unlikely that someone will ask us to scan and send something.

    4. moss*

      I’m 100% remote and I could work from anywhere. I do stay at home with my chair and my coffee and Netflix but I could go sit by the pool if I wanted.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I think “work from home” is usually code for “work remotely.” I don’t think it necessarily means you’re physically tethered to your primary residence.

      1. Alli525*

        Came here to say exactly this! Unless your office has specifically paid for home equipment (like a landline or a special desk or something), it’s reasonable to assume that work could be taking place from your bed or Starbucks or Fiji.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          In my case a coffee shop would be fine (I sometimes go to a coffee shop for an hour or two to work when I’m at the office). But you have to file a travel request if you’re going to be out of the city on a work day, so you couldn’t work remotely from out of town without explicit permission for each day.

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      That’s why we talk about “telework days” instead of “work from home days” at my company. I did that for a while when my dad was sick — there wasn’t much for me to do most of the time, so I still got in 8 hours a day, just not consecutively like I would at home. But I needed to be there for some things, so it really helped being able to work from the hospital, rehab center, and his apartment, since they all had wifi.

      I’d say start working on making “telework” the term instead of “work from home”, and the expectations will be different. It shouldn’t make any difference….as long as the people who might need to contact you have your cell phone number, because part of the expectation of “work from home” is that, since you will be in one place, they can call you at home at any time. Now, I don’t use the phone at all most days at work, I tend to email or IM, but I did have some conference calls via Skype and Google Talk while I was teleworking from the hospital, I just had to find a place close by where I could do so (patient lounge), and I made sure I had my computer headset so I could hear and be heard.

    8. The IT Manager*

      Depends on your company. My organization wants my address where I work from so I am not flexible.

      I think it would also greatly depend on whether you have audio calls where you must hear or speak. As someone working on schoolwork in a restaurant with WiFi, I found it annoying to hear other people clearly making sales calls probably because the speaker was speaking clearly on purpose. And a noisy coffee shop might not be the best place for you to be understood through your mic.

    9. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      In my job I’m typically at home but it’s fine for me to work elsewhere. If I were to work out of town I would probably just let my boss know in case any technical issues came up.

    11. Bea W*

      In my experience, no. You can be wherever you want so long as you are online, available to co-workers, and actually working.

    13. I heart Jared Dunn*

      I’d recommend not being in a coffee shop/cafe if you need to make phone calls. I’ve listened to calls from public places, but it’s much hard to participate and adds a lot of extra noise if you need to speak. We have a few people on a recurring call who travel regularly, and one week someone was in an airport – we had to ask him to email responses to questions because all we heard every time he un-muted his phone were airline announcements.

    14. Bored IT Guy*

      My leadership is cool with working remotely from wherever, as long as we are productive, and call in to join all the meetings that we should be.

      With that being said, I prefer my home-office space to public places … I have a hardware VPN device, I have a dual-monitor setup, and I have a headset for my soft phone at home, whereas I don’t have any of that stuff when I’m in Starbucks or Panera … The tradeoff is that they have better food :)

    15. miyeritari*

      at my office, you can work from anywhere as long as you’re doing the work. So cafe or bookstore is fine too (or parents’ house, or hotel…etc).

    16. INTP*

      Generally, it’s fine. The only ways I could see it being a problem is if +
      1) WFH at your office is meant to be an occasional perk when you really need the flexibility to wait for the repairman or don’t want coworkers to catch your cold, and if you can be out and about they would want you to be at the office
      2) You’re handling sensitive information or connecting to company servers and it’s considered risky to be on public wi-fi for that
      3) You need to be able to answer the phone on short notice

      Otherwise, work where you want! I work remotely full-time and while I work most efficiently on my home setup (mainly the multiple monitors), it’s nice to get out of the house sometimes too, and can make me more productive when I’m just feeling sick of being in the same room for 16 hours a day.

    17. Anecdata*

      Yep! Totally normal for “work from home” to be “work from anywhere not the office”. But if you’re unsure, this would also be a perfectly normal question to ask your boss – if one of my reports asked me, I would just think “Oh, they’re conscientious about using this benefit correctly – that’s great!”

    18. katamia*

      Assuming you’re not dealing with sensitive material and you don’t have to take phone calls/do something else that would be disruptive to other patrons, going elsewhere shouldn’t be a problem.

    19. Windchime*

      On my last job, I would sometimes work remotely from a coffee shop. There was a Starbucks nearby with a nice outside patio and I would work from there. But I don’t really do that at this job because about 95% of the time, I have confidential material on my screen and can’t have that up for the casual observer to see. So now I work from home in my cushy living room chair or outside on my own little patio.

    20. Gloucesterina*

      Not what you’re asking, but my partner has a full-time work from home arrangement and his contract specifies what he must do. In this case it means being at a devoted workspace at home with a landline (he takes many calls piped in from the main office) as well as having childcare, and I think somethings related to workplace safety.

    21. Fenchurch*

      I would guess that depends entirely on your company and the type of work that you do. Assuming that you do not handle sensitive/private information that you would not want random people at a cafe peeking at, I would think it wouldn’t be an issue.

      Best to check with your manager/coworkers to see what the best practice is for your position.

    22. Beth Anne*

      I think as long as your wifi connection doesn’t lag/disconnect and you don’t have to use any kind of vpn that could be blocked it would be fine. I’ve thought about working from home from coworking offices.

    23. Teapot project manager*

      I’m 100% remote and almost always work from my office at home. At home I have two full size monitors and a regular size keyboard which makes me much more efficient on much of my work. I am also on conference calls a lot. No way would I take one in coffee shop, not only would it be annoying to other customers, I shouldn’t be having some of my calls in place where anyone could overhear plus I need to hear and be heard, way easier on my land line and with a headset.

      That said, last Monday I worked elsewhere. We were out of town for the weekend and my husband stayed to fish Monday, my plan was to come home Sunday I realized I would have the house to myself with wifi and only had one internal call and could do my work with just the laptop monitor, didn’t have a ton of work that needed two monitors. So I forwarded my work phone to my cell phone and worked there.

      I’ve also worked elsewhere when needed to be sit someone with health issues but I wanted to get work done

  11. Dept of Mean Girls*

    My supervisor basically bullied my colleague, Diane, to go on FMLA by putting her on a ridiculous PIP amidst coworker’s personal family drama. Writing is on the wall that supervisor wants Diane gone but HR said she needs to start tracking Diane’s time to make a case that she isn’t performing.

    Diane is due back in two week and my supervisor has set up a meeting before then with our team of four plus her boss (who is just as awful to Diane and thinks supervisor is funny when she badmouths people) to talk about our feelings and the extra work we’ve had to do while Diane had been out. Note, supervisor did not pick up any of the extra work. I think snake supervisor will try to convince us to keep Diane’s work to help make her case that she’s not doing enough work. I don’t trust my colleagues to see through this as one is very young and naïve and the other is BFs with supervisor. I’m also disgusted that this is how we welcome back people from leave, venting rather than offering support? I’m kind of at a loss between keeping my own job (staying on the good side) but doing something in what feels like a really terrible, icky situation.

    It’s a mean girls scenario but I thought about mentioning in our “vent session” that it worries me what kind of team we are that we aren’t supportive when people are on leave and anyone of us could have to have surgery or a sick family member. Not making it personal to Diane but bringing up the fact life happens . I don’t know. I’d like to talk with HR but at this company, that gets you nowhere but in the line of fire.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Did you actually have a significantly increased workload when Diane wasn’t there? I think you could be supportive of her by telling the bosses how much work Diane does, and how glad you’ll be to see her back. Treat it as an informational meeting, not a venting session, and if they try to prod you to gripe about her being gone, just repeat that you appreciate being able to leave when life pulls you in different directions, and you’ll be glad when Diane is back to pick up all of her work again.

    2. LCL*

      Wow, there is way too much feeling at this work place. Your supervisor is managing by feelings, she sounds like she has the emotional maturity of a child. The only thing you can do is try to keep the meeting strictly business. So at the meeting talk about how much extra work you are doing with Diane out of the office, and what other jobs this is preventing you from doing.

      What you might do is ask, towards the end of the meeting, how the company prefers you to handle surgery or sick family members. Because ‘I want to make sure I am complying with company policy’. Your manager is being a jerk, but, I don’t think directly calling her out on it will result in anything good happening for you OR change how she is treating your coworker.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I’d casually bring it up with the co-workers ahead of time. As in “Gee, I’ve had so much extra work to do, but I know that if something happen to me then Diane and everyone would make sure everything keeps running smoothly.”
      That is really the key. If you are sick/have personal issues then we will help. If Snake-Manager wants to make a stink, then I’d ask what would happen if I had to take time off. Will I be forced out of my job?

    4. Nonnonnon*

      Thank you, thank you, thank you for recognizing the toxicity here and trying not to get drawn into it. I highly recommend a book called “Mobbed” by Janice Harper. It perfectly describes the underlying dynamics of these types of situations. I hope you can get out of there, if that’s what you decide.

    5. Phoenix Programmer*

      I was the Diane is this situation once. Sadly all my coworkers caved. I like the suggestions above. Any time you can speak up for Diane do it.

      One of my co-workers from this team called me years later crying and begging forgiveness and explaining that she felt pressured to complain about me. Guilt ate her up.

    6. Competent Commenter*

      I realize that without knowing the really specific dynamics of how your work meetings go, my advice may be off-base. But one approach is the wide-eyed one. “Oh, we wouldn’t keep Diane’s work after she returns, would we? I mean, she’s always been so competent, and of course if we do that, wouldn’t it look like harassment? I just want to be sure we do what’s best for the company. I mean, am I missing something here?” etc. I don’t mean those exact words, but that kind of tone, with a somewhat bewildered but smiling expression. You can sometimes get away with more if you are willing to sound a bit naive.

      You can also take the “I’m just confused” tone, which is a bit more matter of fact without being too aggressive. “I’m just confused. Why would I take on Diane’s work?” “Maybe I misunderstood, but if we take this action, won’t it seem like retaliation for Diane being on leave, even if that’s not our intention? I’m just checking.”

      Most aggressive (but still not in-your-face) would be saying things like, “I don’t feel comfortable with topic X. Diane is getting back from FMLA after all.”

      Hard to convey tone via a comment, but hope that helps a little.

      1. Joshua*

        The retaliation bit is a big deal. If Diane comes back from FMLA and all of a sudden she doesn’t have a job because the supervisor divided her responsibilities up and gave them to coworkers, then I think Diane has a very strong case against the company if she’s laid off. Ironically, the supervisor may have made it harder to get rid of Diane legally by forcing her onto FMLA, because now Diane has a legal claim to return to an equivalent position to the one she left when going on FMLA.

    7. Shamy*

      Good for you for seeing through this awfulness for what it is. I echo everyone’s sentiments. Please go to bat for her as much as you can. As someone that went through a hellacious year last year where one thing after another kept getting piled on me, with no time to take a breath, it helped so much to know my coworkers were supportive. I really think I may have had a mental breakdown in Diane’s situation.

      Don’t become weak in the face of their mob mentality. I think no matter what the outcome is, you will never regret having Diane’s back, but I think if you cave or stay silent, it will be something that haunts you forever. And you sticking up for her could make a world of difference, maybe others will join in in their support. Meanwhile, brush up your resume, this could easily have been you or anyone else in the group.

    8. Troutwaxer*

      I think you should go over the top with it. “I think it’s great that we all came together to help Diane when she was sick. If I ever get sick I’ll be glad to know that all of you have my backs. I think what happened is really, really healthy and I hope it carries through for the rest of us because stuff happens!” You can particularly emphasize this with female coworkers who might be of child-bearing age and with people who are old enough to have possible health issues going forward. “Its great to be part of such a supportive workplace!”

      Also, bone up on FMLA and retaliation so you can speak intelligently about that.

      Lastly, is Diane’s “personal family drama” a temporarily or permanent issue? If this is a problem which has occurred previously then managing Diane out might be warranted. On the other hand, if Diane’s issue relate to some kind of abusiveness at home then there might be possible EEOC complications.

  12. Can you (not) hear me now*

    Did my comment get eaten?

    In any case, I’m looking for noise-canceling headphones to help me concentrate at home (I live in an apartment with a few noisy families). I’m easily distractable so need a high-quality pair.

    1. NASA*

      I’ve borrowed my dad’s Bose QC35’s and they are excellent. Pricy, but gooooood. I’m sure you’ll get a lot of recommendations at different prices points here though :)

    2. Samata*

      We have Bose Quiet Comfort wireless and love them.

      Well, I love them when I am wearing them. I hate them when my partner is wearing them – because I fruitlessly yell that dinner’s ready and he never hears.

      They are around $300 but worth it if you are willing to invest. I got gifted a $100 pair thinking they’d be the same but they aren’t.

    4. Reba*

      I have the Bose QuietComfort wired (not bluetooth) style. I can’t compare to other brands but they are truly amazing. If there is an outlet mall near you, see if they have a Bose store–I got a return/refurb pair for much less than retail.

    5. Owl*

      I was just reading an AAM post where people talked about headphones, but maybe it was an older one . . . anyway, before you drop a chunk of change on noise-cancelling headphones, know that they might not work for your situation. The way they cancel noise is by listening to the noise outside of them, and counter-acting those sounds with different soundwaves. (Or something like that.) So they work well for things like the background noise of an airplane, because that’s a constant droning sound, and less well for “sharp,” sudden noises like kids yelling, because they don’t have time to adjust.

      You might be better served with ear protection, like the kind people wear to shooting ranges or when using loud equipment. If you want to listen to music, you can wear earbuds inside them.

      1. nonegiven*

        My battery powered shooting headphones let you hear normal sounds like conversation but deaden sudden sharp sounds like gunshots.

    6. Ori*

      I have the Bose earbuds and I love them, but they’re not great for sudden or inconsistent noises – they mostly just drown out continuous noises (think airplane engines) and voices, stomping feet, toys hitting walls, etc still ring through clear.

      You might be better off with just a good pair of over the ear headphones, or maybe wax earplugs if you’re not going to be listening to music/podcats/etc.

      1. Can you (not) hear me now*

        I’ve tried earbuds & the noise of the kids cuts through that. Maybe I’ll give full-on headphones a try. Suggestions?

        It’s frustrating, because the kids are out there MANY days. If it were just a handful, I’d go somewhere else, but I don’t want to be always fleeing from my own house.

        1. Thegs*

          As Owl stated above, noise cancelling headphones don’t work too well in preventing sudden noises from getting through. What you can look for is noise isolating headphones, which instead aim to prevent sound entering through passive means similar to ear protection. I personally use ATH-M50 at home (now sold under the name ATH-M50X) and they’re comfortable for 3-4 hours of constant wear, even with my sensitive ears. Sennheiser HD280PRO is better if you’re looking under $100 though, they block as much noise as ear plugs do.

        2. StitchKittea*

          My suggestion are earbuds, specifically iFrogz ( https://www.amazon.com/iFrogz-EarPollution-Plugz-Earbuds-Mic/dp/B002FB67I6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1504291357&sr=8-6&keywords=ifrogz+earbuds ).
          They aren’t noise cancelling, and they aren’t expensive. I absolutely love them though. I have very good hearing. When I’m not wearing them I can hear everyone in the office, no matter where they are. I put my music on and it tunes them down to nothing. Even when a yelling, on the phone salesman walks by my desk, they are a mere whisper. The only things I can hear is my music and the sounds that I make (typing, breathing, etc)

          They are corded, very comfortable (comes with different sizes), and durable. I’ve dropped mine in my coffee a couple times, still works great.

          Not sure if these would work for you, but that’s my two cents.

    7. LiveAndLetDie*

      Sennheiser makes a great over-the-ears pair for about $40 and they also have really good earbuds (similar price point), if you’d prefer that style. Both are on Amazon. I use the over-the-ear at work and the earbuds at home and I really like both pairs.

      Also great for cancelling noise are gaming headphones, though they also tend to be HUGE.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve used Creative Labs headphones (about $60 on Amazon, if your budget won’t allow the Bose ones). They work pretty well to cancel out ambient sounds and they do mute noise a bit, but they do not block talking or yelling, etc. They’re comfortable and have a microphone that works with iPhones–I dont use this feature, and in fact, I broke the mike on my latest pair. They take a AAA battery and you just have to make sure you keep some around.

      A friend of mine gave me a pair of Symphonized wooden Wraith headphones he didn’t want–oh my gawww they are so nice. Same issue with voices and other sudden sounds getting through but the sound quality for music is amazeballs. They cost around $99. They’re so hipster, with a metal band and fabric cord; I can’t wait to wear them at a new workplace, haha. I can’t believe he didn’t want them.

      Oh look, they’re on sale!! https://symphonized.com/products/wraith-2-0-walnut-headphones-with-mic

    9. Windchime*

      I have the older Bose Quiet Comfort headphones and they are amazing. Be aware that they won’t filter out conversation alone; they filter out ambient noise really well. When I’m trying to filter out voices, I use them in conjunction with a white-noise app on my phone or else music. The white noise app is great; it’s actually called “White Noise”.

    10. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I live in a noisy city and while we moved to a much quieter neighborhood, I can occasionally hear the neighbors going up the stairs or a bit of talking through the walls. I also work in an open office.

      I have a couple of approaches to noise management. Initially I was looking at the Bose headsets but after trying some on in a Costco one day and realizing it fixed the loud overheard fan but NOT the screaming kids across the way, struck them from the list. One thing I can’t tolerate is hearing an inaudible voice murmur (see: neighbors).

      So instead I use:
      1) Fan for white noise at night/drown out neighbor talking

      2) Cheap Skullcandy in-ear earbuds. These are like $9 at Walmart and I keep 3-4 pair on hand at any time so I can replace a pair that blows up. Good sound, isolate a lot of noise, and I can sleep on them/roll them up/squish in bag/etc and if they break eh, who cares. These are also my commuter pair and work if I have to get up and down and dont have time to put in the pair below

      3) A reeealllyyy nice pair of in-ear sound isolating earphones – Shure 315s. They cut out a LOT of noise even before you turn the music on, but getting them in can be a hassle at first. Once you solve that problem people THEN dont realize you have headphones in and talk to you anyway. I also use these at home for listening purposes. At work I like to listen to rain or ocean sounds to help me concentrate

    11. only acting normal*

      I love my Bose QC15 headphones. My husband was so jealous he got his own pair. I also know more than one pilot who has a pair for travelling. I’ve had them maybe 7 years and worn them so much I had to replace the ear pads (very easy with a replacement kit).
      Actually originally they were a pair of v-good Sennheisers but they didn’t fit me, so returned them for the Bose. Basically try some on before you choose.

  13. moss*

    My coworker! We both work remotely and I think I’ve been too friendly to him because now I’m his goto for all his admin questions and jokes and complaints and brainstorming and thinking out loud (THE WORST). I have tried to pull back from my initial friendliness and just be professional and terse. I feel bad, maybe he’s lonely at home, but that’s not my problem. He’s interrupty and rambly and ARGH. I have a lot of respect for his work and I try to be collegial but I dread seeing his name pop up on my instant messenger.

    1. Helpful*

      Can you be up front? “Hey, I’ve enjoyed having ‘water cooler’ chats but I need to focus for longer stretches so I can’t be interrupted for non-work stuff. Thanks for understanding.”

      1. Helpful*

        Also, depending on how many remote ppl you have, you can set up a slack channel (or whatever you use) that is the figurative water cooler– a place for jokes, gifs, what are you doing this weekend, etc. That will consolidate it and also can help remote employees feel more connected.

        1. moss*

          Thanks! Great ideas. The social stuff is the least of it really. He’s coming to me with stuff he should be taking to IT or wanting to think out loud at me as he navigates his job tasks.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah… this happens sometimes. Sounds like he just needs a sounding board sometimes or someone to bounce things off of. Does your team have regular catchup calls? Maybe you could ask him to hold those thoughts until the call? Or you could set some boundaries such as only being available between 9-10 am for questions, that type of thing to limit it.
      If not, just be upfront. “Hey, I really can’t chat as I need to concentrate right now.” “You need to contact IT about that.” ETC.

    3. Camellia*

      I have a coworker who will occasionally do this also. If it gets too much, I simply don’t reply for a while – 10, 15, or even 30 minutes – and then just reply something like, “Sorry, I’m so busy I didn’t see your message” but without saying anything that encourages further conversation.

      And if necessary, either because I really am that busy or because they are being really annoying, I just don’t reply at all. The world doesn’t end if you do this, and if they say anything (I’m mean in a actual conversation, not over IM again), then just repeat about how busy you are/have been/will be.

      2. Bostonian*

        I just recently started doing this with my super chatty/complain-y coworker and it’s been surprisingly effective!

    5. You Got This*

      I have been this person. *face palm* It’s embarrassing but I’m really chatty over IM. People (that are still good friends) just gradually stopped responding to IMs and always referenced having to get back to work. I think the speed in which you respond can also be a great signal. Maybe wait 15 minutes or an hour. And then provide a response that’s more direct and doesn’t lead to a continuation of the conversation. Such as, “Oh, that sounds like an IT question. I’d submit a ticket.” or “Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.”

    6. Willow Suns*

      Oh man. I had this issue with a co-worker when he was new. He had major boundary problems. He wouldn’t take a hint. I had to push back repeatedly and state things like, I need to focus on my work, please leave me alone. It took months of doing that. :(

      I think he was lonely. I did advise him to look for clubs outside of work to join.

  14. CBH*

    I want to approach a few companies for some networking research. I always interpreted “small business” to be a company that was not a big box company regardless of legal standing (corporation, LLC, sole proprietorship). I don’t know if that’s how others in the business world define small business. I don’t want to be offensive referring to a company as a small business when the company made $1million in revenue last year and seems to be growing.

    Is there a threshold or guidelines for what makes a small business?

    Is there a proper way to say I am looking to network with small business non big box companies?

    2. RL*

      There are some different ideas about this but I think in general, small business is less than 100 employees and medium can be up to 1000 employees, and they can be categorized together as SMB (small to medium business) if they make under $10 million a year in revenue.

      Middle market or small to medium enterprises would be over 500 employees with revenue of 10 mil-1 bil.

      Large enterprise – over 1000 employees, over 1 billion in annual revenue. Big boxes – like a Home Depot or Macy’s would fall into LE territory, though a more local chain store would most likely be a MM.

      (My company works with businesses of all sizes and we consider SBs to be under 2mil in annual revenue, but that’s specific to my company and not necessarily industry standard. I can’t remember where we draw the line between MMs and LEs, though.)

      1. RL*

        sorry, to answer your question (in my opinion) you’d probably say you are looking to network with SMBs, rather than middle market companies or large enterprises.

    3. CBH*

      Hi All – Thank you for your responses. Based on RL’s definitions I am definitely looking to network with small businesses. I guess when doing preliminary research, I was surprised at how much revenue was earned. Then when typing out an email I didn’t want to offend the company saying they were small when they earned over $1m.

  15. Panda*

    I have a long-term health problem which affects my ability to work. I am currently working part-time, having previously left a full-time job, and now I may have to give up work altogether. I realise this is a work advice blog and so this may not apply, but has anyone here been in a similar situation? How do you deal with not working? We can cope financially due to my husband’s salary, but I worry about my sense of self-worth and what to do with my time. What if my health improves and I want to go back to work?

    1. CBH*

      Panda
      I’m so sorry for all you are going through. Can you volunteer one day a week? WHat about starting an online business you can work on at your leisure at home? Your situation is nothing you have control over. You should be proud of your self worth – take things one step at a time, get better first!

      1. Emily S.*

        I was about to suggest volunteering also. There are many different organizations – depending how large your city is. I hope you can find something.

        Also, do you have any hobbies that could perhaps turn into profit-making pursuits? (e.g. photography, art or crafts?)

    2. Helpful*

      I agree with volunteering and using your skills in some way. What industry are you in? We could help you brainstorm ideas that are work-adjacent.

    3. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Are you able to do any sort of online education? I think just keeping your mind occupied and doing something constructive might help. And if you do go back to work, you’ll have a good answer for potential interview questions about “what did you while you were off work to stay up on your skills”. The community colleges in my area tend to cater to non-traditional students and so a fair number of classes in many different departments. They are also more reasonably priced that the four year universities. I don’t know what your field is but with a little creativity, I’d bet you could describe just about any class as “helped improve my problem-solving/communication/critical thinking skills”. Good luck and good health!

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      Sorry to hear you are going through this. I would strongly recommend volunteering in a position related to your field to keep your resume up-to-date and to maintain a schedule. If leaving the house regularly is not an option, maybe there is work-from-home volunteering you can do. Good luck!

    5. Torrance*

      I dealt largely by working through this issue in therapy. I’m currently in your situation and, while I never considered the ability to earn a paycheck as part of my self-worth, I struggled for a while at dealing with the societal pressure to do so. Now I don’t give a fig. I have so many hobbies and interests that it’s actually hard to find the time to do it all.

      If you foresee yourself having the desire and the ability to go back to work at some point, the others’ suggestion of volunteering would help keep the resume shiny and continuing education is always a good thing. (If it fits in your ideal career path, perfect! If it doesn’t, there’s never a downside to learning something new.)

    6. Sad Freak Out in the South*

      I’m sorry you’re experiencing such a tough situation. I’m in the process of transitioning from one career to a less demanding one because of side effects from cancer treatments. I’m a lawyer, but chemotherapy has had a lingering impact on my mental functioning, and I’m scared I will screw up something important and get my ass disbarred. So I’m looking for a job in a nonprofit with more flexibility and better work/life balance. It’s disappointing after working so hard to get into law.

      Think about something you might like to do that’s less demanding, whether it’s paid or unpaid. You might look for an opportunity to help other people with a similar health condition. That could be rewarding and would put you in an environment where people understand your limitations. If your health improves you tell potential employers you took time off for medical reasons. I literally just had an interview today where I explained my situation and the interviewer was totally unphased.

  16. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Nothing important to add but, my GOD, it’s been a dumpster fire of a week. Thankfully it’s a three day weekend!

    Oh! And a quick thank you to everybody here. I don’t post all that frequently, but when I do everybody is extremely supportive and welcoming. Truly one of (if not The) best communities online!

    1. OwnedbytheCat*

      Yes. Dumpster fire of a week is a really good descriptor. I still have one really horrible, stressful conflict to deal with before end of day and I just want to go home and binge watch television!

    2. Competent Commenter*

      I misread your post at first…not a dumpster fire of a week so much for me at work, but I’m in Northern California and the wildfires in our region are seriously impacting air quality. So real fire is on my mind! Sunlight on the reflective surfaces is orange, skies are brown, and you can even see a haze of smoke if you look down the street. And it’s going to be 111 degrees this weekend, low wind.

    4. Tammy*

      It’s not been a dumpster fire of a week for me, but a real emotional roller-coaster dealing with some serious team member issues. But I got to give a deserving team member a promotion, so that’s to the good.

  17. Nonnonnon*

    I just finished a book about workplace mobbing, which helped me recover from a toxic workplace. Have you ever experienced or witnessed mobbing? What helped you?

      1. Nonnonnon*

        In simple terms it’s a case where a target is essentially selected for elimination from the workplace, and a group engages in harassing/bullying/etc behaviors to force them out.

        3. JanetM*

          I am honestly not trying to be snarky.

          Is “mobbing” a new term for “scapegoating,” or is there some difference in connotation that I’m missing?

          1. fposte*

            I think it’s a more common term in Britain than in the U.S.; I’d say it’s more like group bullying than scapegoating.

      3. Anon and on and on*

        As a matter of fact, jump down to poster named, Dept of Mean Girls. You will see exactly what it is.
        Writer describes where the situation is, how it got there and where it is going. Bleak stuff.

    2. LSP*

      I spent three years working at a governmental office of elected officials that were of a different political belief system as myself. I knew where they stood when I started, and vice versa, but that didn’t stop them from picking on me, mocking me, belittling me, and even bringing on some nice subtle threats when I refused to do political work for them on my own time (which is pretty normal in offices like that). Add on top of that finding out my Chief of Staff was sleeping with an intern more than 15 years younger than her (and she was married), and yeah, that was a pretty toxic place.

      What helped me deal with it while I was there was actually when I met my now husband, because he gave me something to think about other than my daily suffering at my job. Eventually, though, I just needed to get out of there. I finally found a new job with a manager that I still consider myself to be close with.

    3. C in the Hood*

      Never knew what this was till I just googled it–and it describes my former workplace to a T! It was a small office & certain people had the “power” and wielded it. Even the HR person was in on it. Anyone who made any sense or didn’t fit the “mold” was passive-aggressively targeted (I was a female in a male-dominant industry).
      What helped me? I finally said to myself, “What am I trying to prove by staying here?” Then started looking for another job (NOT in the industry; this job made me lose my taste for it). The job I found is the one I’m at now…for the past 13+ years!

      1. Windchime*

        This is what happened to me at my old job. I didn’t know there was a word for it. A person from another department was brought in and became our manager, and she systematically targeted people and decided they were the “problem employee” (PE). She would start whisper campaigns about them, confide to the PE’s peers about the PE’s supposed disciplinary issues, etc. Then she would start building a case against the person. She did it to 5 or 6 people before she started on me–I had always thought I would be immune but I wasn’t. I finally had to leave and find a new job because I was so distraught and depressed and anxious.

        She recently got fired from OldJob, but I have no doubt that she will start right back up again as soon as she finds a new job.

        I found this excellent article about workplace mobbing:
        https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201303/surviving-workplace-mobbing-identify-the-stages

    4. Fishcakes*

      I was a target of workplace mobbing years ago. I quit, which helped immensely. I was immediately hired by a supportive and healthy organization, which helped me get my confidence back. I still am suspicious and on the alert for toxic people, but that’s not all bad.

    5. Phoenix Programmer*

      I was the target of workplace mobbing but thankfully it was a huge company so I was able too get a promotion out of it.

      One thing people don’t realize is that the coworkers joining in with the mobbing are also negatively affected. See my post above about ex coworker.

      In my case although the company was huge and international all the managers of one department went to the same small highschool. This the of power clique leading too all of their team leads mobbing for position. I did not play along so was targeted but thankfully my skills won me external department allies and ultimately a promotion. It was really hard though until I got out.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Bullying or mobbing is not illegal or actionable unless it involves a protected class, but if a company’s management tolerates it, then there’s not much you can do except leave. Somebody did this at OldExjob to a new salesperson. She was a tall, slightly overweight woman and the rest of the sales staff were men. Only one of them didn’t do it. But he didn’t stick up for her either, not that I ever saw.

      The shop guys got in on it too, to some extent (not all of them). They belittled her appearance, made remarks about her weight, her food, etc. She quit after a very short time–the reason she gave was a medical issue, but I’m 99% sure it was because of them. I tried to get them to stop and told them off when she left, but they just laughed at me. I kind of wish she’d sued them. I would have backed her up, even if I got fired, but I guess she just wanted to get the bloody hell out of there. I really can’t blame her at all. In hindsight, I wish I had quit over it myself.

      It really was a toxic place in certain ways. This was where I worked with the guy I refer to as Bullyboss. He bullied one of his sales reps endlessly, so much it used to stress me out. He ended up getting fired after I got laid off (I would have paid actual money to see that happen). I ran into him in the vet’s office when I went there to see about getting Pig in when she was in her last illness, and he didnt’ recognize me at first because I had changed my haircolor. I hated him so much I will never work for any company that employs him unless I never have to see him.

      We also had a temp toward the end of my tenure who was the most chill, awesome person I’ve ever met. She and I are still in touch!

    7. Chaordic One*

      Do tell!

      If it helped you recover, you HAVE TO to share the title and the name of the author. You have a moral obligation to the recovering members of the AAM community to do so!

  18. Still 'non today*

    When is a good time to ask for time off after you have already been on leave for a year?

    Before I give further details, I feel like most people would say 6 months or so….

    However, my spouse was on leave for a year because they were on deployment (you know…being shot at on a daily basis in a combat zone, but *shrug* some people still think they were on vacation for a year). Spouse and I would like to take time off 3 ½ months upon their return to civilian job. When would be a good time to put in the request? ASAP? A few weeks in? Spouse wants to wait, but if we want to go on this vacation things need to be booked 5-6 months in advance so either way the timing isn’t ideal.

      1. Still 'non today*

        Ideally 10 days (8 work days), but I think we can do it in 5 work days (+2 for the weekend, ideally over the holiday weekend). So, one week off.

        Spouse left with 2 weeks PTO, so those days should still be there and they will accrue another 3 between returning to work and our vacation (that I hope we can take!).

        I see other q’s below:
        S has been with the company for over 5 years, but in this role for 1.5 years (would have been 2.5 had S not been on leave). S’s manager is so-so. I think she’d understand, but I also feel she’d be annoyed. She has already emailed S saying that upon returning S will be in charge of projects ABCDEFG (prior to leave S managed ABC).

        Thanks so much everyone, this is great advice!

        1. Still 'non today*

          You know, S could request 4 days off if we left Friday after work, had the weekend + holiday Monday, Tuesday – Friday would be PTO, and we return to the US that Saturday or Sunday.

          Yesssss.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think in these circumstances, it would be good to do it as soon as possible. Make it part of transitioning back into civilian life, rather than “I’m back, but I’m leaving again.” I’d go with something like “I’m glad to be back to civilian life but Still’non and I were apart for a year and we really need a vacation to regroup. I was hoping to do it soon, during my readjustment period.”

      (And thanks to the spouse…)

    3. Sualah*

      How long was spouse at the job prior to deployment? What’s spouse’s manager like? I would think while spouse and manager are hashing out details of return (exactly what date, etc), spouse could say, “I will be back from deployment on September 30 and return to work on October 9. I would also like to put in the request for two weeks time off in February since we’re dealing with all this now.” If there are any other logistics, those can be addressed as well. Since your spouse is deployed and doesn’t have access to the boss for “quick question” type stuff, it makes sense to put everything all at once.

      I really think it depends the job. I had 16 weeks maternity leave but wasn’t shy at all about using my other PTO once I came back from that (definitely did not wait 6 months!) and I don’t think my manager even batted an eye.

    4. Anon and on and on*

      This is similar to people using FMLA or who have part time positions in offices. “Why would you need time off? You can just recharge when you are not here already.”
      I don’t need time off. I need a vacation. I need to use the part of my benefits package entitled to me. It’s a pain, but it’s a reality.

      I would talk to boss immediately. Treat it like when you first started your job and you already had something scheduled. There’s going to be “debriefing/retraining” meeting with the boss to welcome back and get Spouse up to speed. Here’s what you need to know, here’s what you’ll be working on. Here’s what’s changed. Have any questions?
      Yes, X, Y, Z and trip.

    5. Generic Administrator*

      I’d say you’d want to wait two or three months as a minimum, and even then you’ll want to word your request carefully. Do you have an employee handbook that states how much notice you need to give?

    6. KR*

      If he has to put in a military leave request, asap. Especially if it involves booking expensive non refundable things. I’m guessing he’s reserves if he’s coming back from a deployment to a civilian job so hopefully the civilian job will be understanding if he asks for time off. I think if he has access to email he should request off the time now to give them plenty of notice. You might want to look at the laws surrounding military leave. Even if his employer or co-workers might treat it like a vacation they aren’t allowed to penalize him if he gets deployed I’m pretty sure, so his vacation/leave/ect should still be available to him.

    7. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      If I were your spouse’s manager, I would prefer him to take that leave immediately upon return from deployment for a variety of reasons: minimize disruption from him going in and out, minimize his own disruption to transitioning back to civilian life, and protect his mental health. He will be a better employee if he has the chance to decompress and then return.

      However, I think you also need to be a bit less communicative with boss. Your spouse’s orders will not terminate the day he returns to HOR. They build in debriefing at sponsoring base and a transition time. Your spouse should not be telling boss he returns home on 1 October – he should be telling boss he is off orders 10 Nov. Military leave programs for civilian businesses are based on the dates of orders. It is not common for orders to end the instant the servicemember returns to HOR. I work frequently with Reservists and Guardsmen and I’ve never seen a single deployment order that ends with CONUS/HOR. In fact, last year I had several of my students who deployed March to October; their orders for work and school listed 1 March to 15 November. They were required to spend time training prior to deployment, 6 months deployed, then four weeks debriefing and completing additional duties.

    8. who?*

      Civilians just do. not. understand. that being away from the office does not mean you’re on vacation.

      I would suggest your spouse put in the request ASAP, even before they return (I can’t really tell if they’re back yet?). Rusty and Sualah below have great scripts along the lines of what I was thinking. The key here will be to make it clear that the time away has been stressful and they need rest and time with family before returning to civilian job.

      Reemployed service members are entitled to the seniority and all rights and benefits based on seniority that they would have attained had they remained continuously employed. From one of your responses it sounds like your spouse wasn’t accruing vacation while they were deployed? As an example, if you’ve been with your company for 4 years and you’re deployed for the entire 5th year, and the company policy is that after 5 years you get an extra week of vacation, then you should come back after your deployment with that extra week of vacation. That one year of deployment still counts as a year of being employed with the company, so you’re accruing that benefit. Sorry if you were already aware of that, or if the way vacation is accrued where your spouse works is different and somehow doesn’t apply here, but my experience is that a lot of service members don’t fully understand their reemployment rights and I have very strong feelings about this so I wanted to be sure you know! I’d strongly suggest you/your spouse look into USERRA so you know their rights.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        SUCH a good point! He has more than 2 weeks. He has accrued leave at the same rate whether he was physically present or not. He can request 4 weeks of leave now… or he could go FMLA for mental health as well.

    9. Floundering Mander*

      I don’t know the specifics here so can’t give you advice, but I just wanted to offer a little solidarity as an Air Force brat. What morons think that being deployed to a combat zone = vacation??? That’s a bit like thinking that being in the hospital in a coma for a few weeks is having a nice long refreshing nap.

  19. Website Development Costs*

    TGIF Everyone!
    My company is in the process of selecting a vendor to update our website. Previously, it was developed by an employee, and is not very good. It would be a pretty basic one, maybe 5-8 pages long, with no e-commerce features, or anything like that. The employee who developed our current website is involved with the selection process, and thinks that all of the quotes are too high, and doesn’t understand why we are hiring an outside company to do the development. So, that’s why I’m here – I need to get some objective ideas of what we should expect, so that I can let the owner know that the prices we are seeing are reasonable, because honestly, I have nothing to compare them to. Right now, it’s looking like $3,500-$4,000 is the average. Please let me know if I’m leaving anything out that you would need to thrown a ballpark figure to me, I’ll keep checking in. Thank you so much!

    1. Manders*

      Honestly, that sounds pretty cheap for a site redesign, especially if you’re adding stuff like e-commerce. You really don’t want to cheap out on the stuff that will be making your company money (or losing it if it breaks).

      Ultimately your budget is going to be determined by what you want to do with the site and what scale you need to do it on. Amazon probably spends more than that per day just making little tweaks; a very small business might spend less than $5,000 on site-related stuff in its lifetime.

    2. Jimbo*

      Here’s an article that can give you some useful info in planning for a redesign: https://www.nten.org/article/time-to-redesign-effective-website-planning/

      Honestly, it all depends on what you are looking to do and how complex your site is and where you want to take it. I’ve been through several web redesigns that cost in the six figures and where we worked with a digital agency. I also have seen some cheaper rates for redesigns but nothing for less than $40-$50K

    3. Emily S.*

      My company recently paid about $7,000 for a new website, but it has lots of features (but not an online store).
      We’re in the Midwest, in a medium-size city.

      1. Website Development Costs*

        Well that went wrong. Anyway, thank you! Also want to point out that there is NO e-commerce involved.

        1. Eden*

          My husband works for a web development company and the quotes you are receiving look normal to a tad low, depending on the complexity. But since you say there’s no e-commerce or (I assume) database component, sounds like you are getting good quotes. Naturally the co-worker who originally developed it may feel defensive and might try to criticize the quotes, I’d expect that. Hopefully some care is going into how this is being presented to former developer – I had a previous boss say in front of that person that he wanted something a little less “homemade.” That had to sting a little.

          1. Website Development Costs*

            Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. We are definitely doing our best to be sensitive.

            1. KarenK*

              I designed a website for a client. It was OK when it was first done, but it’s now woefully out of date in both looks and functionality. I built the whole thing in HTML. I was honest with them. If they want something more updated, they’ve got to get a pro. It’s time.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      $4k sounds very low. The website was one of my first projects at my job and the cost was $50k, but it was very complex. We’re looking again and I budgeted about the same, but my boss thinks it will not be nearly enough (!) So, it depends on what features and integrations you want and need. From what you explained, your site sounds fairly basic. Your best bet might be to find an independent website developer and not an agency.

      If you’re providing all the content and just want design/setup/coding basics, I’d budget about $10k to be safe.
      You should be able to get a very decent and customized WordPress or Joomla site in this range. (There might be some yearly fees for hosting and domains and certificates to factor in, so I’d err a bit higher to include these for 1-2 years upfront.)
      Plan on more if you want the agency to write and develop copy and content in addition to site design and/or if you expect them to manage the day-to-day changes on the site.

      For enterprise-portal-level multi-sites (Drupal, Liferay, etc.) with multi-language, extra security and other content delivery features, probably $40k-$50k on up, which may include the cost of the CMS license. I won’t go into all of that, as sounds like more than you’d need at this time.

      1. Website Development Costs*

        Thanks for this feedback! Yes, it is going to be fairly basic. We are a fairly small business, and don’t use our website heavily for marketing; but need for it to be user friendly, functional, and informational. Our IT employee, the one who created the original, will be able to make day-to-day changes. Also, the text is good on the old site, so there won’t be any need for content development. Also, I call it an agency, but it is literally a father/son team.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It sounds like even that average is low, unless you’re talking what I would call a refresh rather than a redesign. I consider a refresh to be updating content and redoing some elements of the template and design, but not creating and implementing a new design from scratch. You’d keep your current platform and templates, but they would be updated, so it is much less work, but it’s also much more limiting.

      For setting up a new CMS installation, designing and creating new templates, and setting up the content and the CMS so that it’s easy for you to update and manage afterwards, I’d probably charge….well, I’m salaried, so it’s hard to say, but even for 5-8 pages, assuming they are not extremely short and basic pages, I’d probably charge $15-20K. Maybe as low as $10K if the content was very basic and didn’t require any architecting (like making things searchable, creating sortable views or databases or forms).

    7. who?*

      My company is also in the process of selecting vendors for a website redesign, and i’m the lead on the project. So far 3 of our quotes are in the $20k-25k range, and one in the $50k range. Granted, our website is much larger than 5-8 pages, but it seems to me that you should base whether the quotes are reasonable on the fact that they’re all in the same ballpark. For us, we’re not even considering the higher-end quote because it’s an outlier. It seems unreasonable to us when it’s the same proposal, yet it’s so much more expensive than the others.

      It sounds to me like perhaps your coworker is a little miffed that their work is being redone by someone else.

  20. yo Anon*

    Has anyone ever gotten to a point where they can do their job in less than half the time? For a multitude of reasons, leaving the position may not be a valid option for another year or so (but I am exploring). I am bored out of my mind (even though I generally like the work) and have tried to take on additional side projects, but am still struggling to fill my days.

    2. Uncivil Engineer*

      Yes, but only in lulls of a month or so while I was in between projects, not as a permanent condition. I planned vacations and read during the extra time. The library system in my city has an option to download books to a personal device and I used my work computer as my “device.” So, as I was reading, I was facing my computer and looked like I was doing something useful.

      1. yo Anon*

        Okay, good to know. Sometimes I feel guilty (I’m salaried, but non-exempt, so still get OT), but I recognize that a new person could not do this job as quickly as I could.

      2. Emily S.*

        I’m in a very similar situation! But in my case, I have to answer calls throughout the day, so it wouldn’t work to be in any less than the full 40 hours/week.

        I just read lots of articles online. I also enjoy looking at Instagram.

      3. Bored At Work*

        Same here – I’ve posted about it before. And I’m hourly, and my company has a very butts-in-seats mentality, so…I’m basically bored all the time. I’ve done all the recommended things of asking for new projects and being clear about my available bandwidth…and yet when my coworker got pregnant, they had someone else, who really does have a full time workload, train to cover her maternity leave, so that person is now doing two jobs while I twiddle my thumbs. So frustrating.

        I’m hanging in here until the end of the year (year end bonuses are distributed in November) and then I’m going to get serious about searching. If/when I leave, I will be advising them that they should make my job a half-time position.

        1. Bored At Work*

          Oh! And! Covering coworker has been told, in my hearing, that if they start to feel overwhelmed be sure and speak up because they will “happily bring in a temp to help out.” (I almost spoke up right then but covering coworker is highly territorial and was already protesting the implication that she can’t Handle Everything and I was like, whatever, I don’t need that negative energy directed at ME for taking away “her” responsibilities.)

    4. Fred G. Sanford and Son*

      Yup. I committed to learning something new. I set a schedule for training myself and stuck to it as best as I could. I treated it like work. I learned a language. Now I do translation at my company. I learned Adobe design software, now I’m the go-to for in house art work.
      I also did fun, personal stuff, but I’ve been here a lot of years!

    5. Alex*

      I’m officially an hourly employee. So things that I could actually do in a few minutes always get stretched out to as long as possible. I just don’t have anything to do that is challenging and it’s kind of annoying. I definitely feel like I’ve plateaued. I’ve been given a few additional tasks (that I asked for), but it’s still not enough to keep me from being really underwhelmed most days.

    6. Michelle*

      Yes, I recently noticed this in my job, too. I’m full-time nonexempt and my boss wants me do my 40, but I could easily do this job part-time, or even remotely (if our company allowed it!). Our culture is very much butt-in-the-seat, so I don’t imagine that remote work will ever be a possibility. I’m being paid fairly and my evals are always great, so I try to “look” busy even if I’m not. I spent the summer organizing and labeling the office supply room and recently downloaded a couple of e-books. Many people here also use their phones or other electronic devices and as long as your work is done and correct, most managers are fine with that. We do have a couple of managers that think you should never look at your phone and a tablet/i-Pad is the devil that is ruining the workplace.

    7. Lora*

      Yeah, mostly because I automate it or write a shell script to do it or something. Get software that does the job.

      I have loads of side projects and use the time to be creative, do some extras that ordinarily would be out of my scope. Or if someone else is slacking off despite many pleas for competence, then I write a shell script to do their job too…At the moment I’m doing some method development that we have a whole department for, but the department is swamped just trying to keep up with their own workload. It’s critical to me doing my extra thing, but not critical to my job function so there’s no support for it otherwise.

    8. Fabulous*

      YES. In a past temp job, I was given one weekly report it took the person I was covering the entire week to do. In just a few weeks, I got it down to 3 days. And then 1.5 days. She was fired, I was hired, and I was given two additional weekly spreadsheets to manage. I haven’t found a way to get more work in my current jobs, though. Being bored at work is the worst.

    9. JGray*

      I am in the same boat. I took a job as an HR assistant which is full time and is expected to cover the office from 8 am to 5 pm. There are parts of my job that are completely dependent on work coming to me like employment verification- if no verification or other items come in than I have nothing to do. I replaced someone who only worked 32 hours per week and as I discovered only did about a quarter of the work that I do and parts of the job that the person before me did were actually given to someone who was hired after me. I could very easily do both jobs but instead it’s a situation where I work full time the other person works 32 hours a week and I think he has even less work than me so there are times where we are both bored. My boss has even rearranged who does what job duties & given him things because I think she was tired of him surfing the internet all day. Based on who he’s married to my boss will never write him up or fire him even though there have been times when she should have and she probably would have if it had been any of the other employees in my office. So my boss apparently didn’t think through that I was working 8 hours a week more and what I was going to do to fill those hours. My boss has even stated that I could do both jobs to other employees but won’t do anything about it. So now that I have had my complaint I fill the hours when I have nothing to do with looking at articles related to HR. I’m running out of resources so I was actually thinking about taking a class or something online like others have suggested. I think that this is about all you can do unless you want to find another job doing something else. I love my job & am hoping that a job comes open in the finance office that I could apply for so that I can stop being bored.

    10. Small but Fierce*

      My current position is very “hurry up and wait.” I’m swamped for a couple of weeks, and then a month or so can pass until the next major project comes up. I’m often very bored during those times. I used to actively pursue more work from other people, but that work turned very admin oriented, which made me uncomfortable as one of the only young females in our male dominated office. I didn’t mind helping, but it was completely outside of my scope (marketing and technical writing). I stopped pursuing other projects because of that, but to this day, I still get asked to get lunch orders or set up rooms for meetings. Lesson learned. Now I mostly stick to personal development – reading a lot of AAM and LinkedIn, watching tangentially relevant YouTube videos, etc.

      Although it doesn’t feel like it given how slow the offer/background check process has been, I anticipate starting a new job in late September that promises to be much more busy. Although I hate how underutilized I am now, I hope I don’t regret leaving once I have a more stressful role.

    11. Competent Commenter*

      Oh yes, I totally had this experience. Second job out of college. Previous person in the position had apparently been on drugs. Spent about two months figuring out what the job was, then realized it was almost strictly clerical, when I had previous been writing grants, running membership programs, etc. Once I had a system down, I was getting the job done in 20 hours/week. Explained this to my boss, and said I could start pitching in on the grant writing and other projects. That completely freaked her out and she wouldn’t give me any additional work. I don’t know what her problem was. And 1) we shared an office and 2) this was pre-internet. There was NOTHING TO DO. Fortunately I worked at a major science museum so I’d go off to “make copies” or ask someone something and play with the exhibits for half an hour at a time. It was excruciating.

    12. Specialk9*

      Once you’ve tried to get enough work and they just don’t have it, shift your mentality. They’re paying you have you on reserve, ready and available to work when you need it. If they only paid you half, you’d be off at another job when needed.

      Some things I know people do: Researching random topics online, exhaustively. Reading personal finance blogs (somehow seemed better than less serious blogs).Getting a discreet headphones or Bluetooth and listen to audiobooks free from the library (Overdrive app).

      The two things you do NOT do: any other paid work, and politics, in their time. Just don’t – you can probably justify it if you really try, but you’ll deserve to be fired.

  21. nonnynon*

    I’ve been recommended to apply for an open position on my team, and it’s full time while I’m on a contract, but I don’t know if I want it. I love working here, and it’s a position I know I can handle, but it’s an EA position while I’m looking to go into a more creative/strategy direction. It’s been making me feel very Robert Frost: two roads diverge, and I don’t know which one to take! Been a stressful few days considering all of the options. (No questions, just a vent! It’s been all that’s been on my mind for two days since my manager reached out to tell me about it.)

    1. Morning Glory*

      It can be really, really difficult to escape from administrative work once you start doing it. It’s possible if you take this job, you will involuntarily become a career EA.

      If your current contract work is more in line with what you want to do, I would recommend not making this move, even if that means a bit less security.

      1. nonnynon*

        Thanks – that is actually one of the things I’m really afraid of. It’s a great opportunity (would learn a lot from the director/managers I’d be working with) but it’s veering off the career path I think I want right now.

      2. Fishcakes*

        This. Don’t take the job if you don’t want to get stuck doing admin work for a very, very long time. And I say that as someone who went from creative work to admin and is now trapped in that role.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      It doesn’t sound like there is any benefit to you professionally, only in terms of security and benefits.
      Typically, someone considering this situation thinks, “I’ll take this job to get my foot in the door. I will prove I’m a good employee and they will give me a chance to grow into the work I want to do.”
      Right now you are doing the work you want to do and they are asking you to walk away from that, to help them out with no discussion of how you will advance from there.

    3. Your Weird Uncle*

      I couldn’t agree more with what the other folks in this thread have said.

      I also wanted to add that I recently went through a similar situation, myself. The job I didn’t want so much (similar to your EA role) was sweetened by a higher salary than the one I ended up taking, and it was a tough decision. When I was able to step back to look at things, I realized I’d be taking the high salary/less desirable job out of fear, whereas I took the job that paid less but was more aligned with what I wanted to do out of excitement. Maybe that will help you feel better about making a decision. Either way, good luck!

  22. Rockstar Keytarist*

    I’m looking for tips on sharing a desk. We recently moved offices and the options were a ridiculously small desk or I share an ok-size cube (with an L-shaped desk) with someone where we each work from home a couple of days a week and the other comes into the office. This was all very last minute so we haven’t had tons of times to hammer out the details but we established some basics like who gets which drawers. I’m concerned this is going to turn into an awful roommate situation (your side of the desk is mess, etc). Has anybody done this before and what helped you keep your sanity?

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      No, I have never encountered this before because it is ridiculous. This is something that happens when companies have expanded to fill current space and can’t move offices for business reasons. This is not what you face going into a new office.
      At least not in the perfect world where I live. So with that said, sympathies for you sucky situation and hope it works out well.

    2. JulieBulie*

      So you’ll pretty much never see one another, right?

      I had a situation like this back in the 90s. We picked out our shelves and drawers, and agreed to put our things away at the end of each day. We never had any problems, believe it or not.

      If she HAD left a bunch of papers out or whatever for me to find in the morning, I would have gathered them up, shoved them into one of her drawers, and sent her an email saying “hey, looks like you left in a hurry last night, so I put your stuff in your top drawer. Have a good weekend!”

      If I’d thought she was messing with my stuff, I’d have started locking things up. But we didn’t have any trouble like that.

    3. k.k*

      When I was part time I shared my desk/office with another part time worker. Basically we decided which drawers belonged to who and made sure that our papers and things were stored away when the other person came in. We never were there at the same time so if we had anything to tell the other person we’d use email (things like “Feel free to use the ___ I brought in”, “Do you mind if I leave a ____ at the desk”). We never had issues.

      I would recommend keeping some disinfecting wipes at the desk so you can do a quick wipe down at the end of the day, especially during cold season.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I’d definitely lock down the rules now – separate drawers, separate ‘inbox’ organizers and then declare a rule that all things have to be put away at the end of the day / before it’s time to swap desks. And clarify what ‘put away’ means – all papers in independent inbox plastic paper organizers or in personal drawers, all pens picked up and put back in pen holder, coffee cups limited to 1 per person and washed out (or whatever you decide on), a few decorations agreed upon, whether there’s a plant, etc, etc. It’s been years since I had to deal w/ a shared desk (though we were on opposite shifts) but having everything officially written down was the key to making it survivable. And don’t be afraid to be meticulous about documenting things it starting out – it’s easier to relax the rules than to make them tighter.

    5. Christy*

      My employer (though not my division) has desk-sharing. You have to have a clean-desk policy so that each person is coming into a blank slate. I’d recommend putting family photos and any relevant notepads into your top drawer so that you can always start your day by re-personalizing the desk. Far better to have to put your own stuff away than to deal with your deskmate’s stuff as well as your own.

      My general vote is to be the loveable tyrant–be really strict about everything but also be like “sorry, I know I’m a tyrant, but please humor me”. It’s worked well with my suitemates. They laugh at me but don’t use speakerphone anymore.

    6. Lora*

      Yup, long long time ago and we were on opposite shifts. We divided the drawers and cabinets down the middle, basically. The key was really to make sure we saved our work and shut off the computer before leaving, because if you forgot and the other person logged you off, you’d lose everything. Otherwise it was uneventful. Dude was very neat and tidy, so it wasn’t a problem.

  23. DecorativeCacti*

    I’m hoping you all have some advice for improving my job search. I just don’t know what titles or keywords to use. I will be best in some kind of administrative support role, but I don’t know what to search for.

    Administrative Assistant brings me receptionist openings and “document control” brings me almost everything somehow. I can’t be a receptionist again, I just can’t handle that much of the general public. I don’t mind being a personal assistant, but I can’t be the first line of defense. Below is a little of my background/skills.

    1. DecorativeCacti*

      • Currently in a health care related field
      • Revise all of our companies standard operating procedures
      • In charge of filing critical documents
      • In charge of tracking and ordering critical department supplies
      • Regular audits of computer systems and files
      • Know Microsoft Office programs (including Visio. Spreadsheets are my jam!)
      • Know Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, and LiveCycle Designer, etc
      • Self-taught on the computer (I can Google!)
      • Meticulously organized – I keep my closet organized by color and sleeve length and even was in the process of researching the Dewey Decimal System for my personal books before I decided it wouldn’t work for me

      1. Beth*

        Hmm, have you considered records management? Records specialist, etc.
        If you do any scheduling/booking, maybe facilities coordinator.
        Many companies would call that sort of work “Administrative assistant” .. I just attempted to search on Linkedin and tried “Administrative Assistant NOT receptionist” and it worked with their job search.

        The other thing I’d say — as a librarian, I can tell you that sometimes even the best keywords can fail you. Since you mentioned healthcare, you could go direct to the websites of your local healthcare companies and browse through the listings to see what might be relevant for you, you can select relevant departments to narrow it down. Looking at one of my local hospitals, I found “Document Management Clerk” (seems to be an odd hybrid of mailroom and filing) .. you might be bored in something like that, but it’s just an example of something you would find by browsing without knowing the correct term.

        1. DecorativeCacti*

          I have searched our local health care systems, and so far there isn’t an admin role that fits but I’m keeping an eye on them. I’ve had really bad luck with LinkedIn so far but I’ll try “records” and see what I can find. Thank you!

          1. Beth*

            I should clarify, I was not necessarily suggesting LinkedIn, I was using it as a test to see how adding “NOT receptionist” would work. If that is what mainly comes up, see if whatever search method you are using has a way to remove results that include “receptionist”! (Clearly I need some more coffee.. :))

      2. krysb*

        I have to advice, but I own about 2,500 books and I have found that I have to play with the DDS to make it work for me. I just do alphabetical by author for fiction books, but my nonfiction is modified DDS. I have issues with DDS because for some reason books that are distinctly the same genre can be in totally different DDS groups. I create a new number for those books so they can be with other similar books. It works for me because it gives me a more specific grouping, which is necessary for books that cross multiple groups. (For example, if I have a book about historical tales of ancient women, where does that go? Ancient history, or women’s history?)c

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Look at positions with “coordinator” in the title. I’ve found those are generally comparable with my skill level at this point in my career.

      1. Berry*

        +1 to this, positions are my org that are like what DecorativeCacti is describing are called coordinator roles

      2. DecorativeCacti*

        Good idea! A surprising amount of “Front Desk Coordinator” postings, but I did find a couple that would work for me.

        I don’t know when “receptionist” became taboo, but it’s annoying. I saw one opening for Director of First Impressions!

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Director of First Impressions is AWFUL.

          But Front Office Coordinator is usually a more highly skilled position than a Receptionist, at least in my experience.

        4. krysb*

          Director of First Impressions is totally what we call our receptionist (other hipster titles include Director of Employee Happiness, Culture Warrior, and Production Commander).

        5. Floundering Mander*

          Reminds me of a big church I went to once that had several ministers in charge of various things (minister of youth, minister of women, and similar) and they all had little brass signs on each office door. The janitor’s office/closet had a sign that said “minister of maintenance” though I’m pretty sure the janitor was not ordained!

      1. Loopy*

        Yeah, I found myself more curious about my coworker shared reaction than if it was true bc it doesn’t feel real to me.

        Regardless, he said he would have had the same stance as the boss! I wasn’t like no! No way! This would be a BAD sign!

    2. Montresaur*

      Wow. I’m inclined to agree with your red-flag assessment. This guy doesn’t seem to be considering the hassle (and potential hazards) of bleeding all over the office, and insisting that people carry on as normal in a situation where someone is seriously injured is unreasonable.

      While I understand the temptation to praise what looks like dedication, it smacks of disregard for others. And refusing to call out when sick? Yikes.

    3. RL*

      Not Always Right is a website where people share greatly exaggerated personal stories about customers and workplace interactions. They are almost always written in an extremely exaggerated, comic tone – people who submit to this site are trying to get outrageous interactions posted rather than telling “true stories”. (It’s along the vein of that old “FML” site.) It’s definitely not an “article,” it’s a humor site.

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        Yeah, some of the earlier entries were more realistic and also funnier IMO, but in more recent years it’s gotten outrageous.

    4. INTP*

      It just makes me really sad that he apparently was in such a bad situation and had such a hard time finding work that he went to an interview with a broken arm and bleeding.

      I would also consider it a red flag more than a sign of impeccable work ethic. I mean, I’d feel bad for holding it against the guy when he was that desperate…but it’s not normal behavior. And I think it sends a bad message to the other employees that this kind of behavior, coming in when you should be at the hospital, is what’s perceived as a good work ethic.

      The story sounds fake to me though, made up by bootstrapper types.

    5. Jadelyn*

      It’s a red flag, but NOT on the candidate – on the second-level manager who freaking PRAISED that kind of thing!

      If someone really needs a job, and especially if they’ve spent a lot of time in the retail environment which in many cases has cultivated an attitude of “no reason is good enough to call out sick” – seriously, peruse the rest of that blog or pretty much anywhere else that retail employees talk about their lives for horror stories about managers refusing to let people call out no matter what’s wrong with them, writing them up for unexcused absences due to being in the hospital, etc. – then they’ve had time to internalize the idea that they have to be absolutely superhuman and invulnerable in order to be worthy of getting and keeping a job. Most likely it’s less about his own personal work ethic and more about the kind of twisted survival mechanisms you develop at a toxic job over time, and I would hate to see anyone hold that against him.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is sad. It gives people an unrealistic view of what they should do to get a job or to remain employed. Or maybe it taking a jab at some employers, can’t be sure.

      To me, the correct answer is do not hire this guy because he can’t prioritize. The building could catch fire and he would remain behind to make sure the files are all in alphabetical order.

  25. FDCA in Canada*

    So my current workplace has opted to not hire anyone on for my position when my contract comes to an end soon, and I’ve found myself becoming intensely interested in work-from-home positions. Is there a good way to seek out specifically WFH jobs (in Canada, although as I’m also a US citizen I can work for US companies hiring citizens abroad)? I keep running up against scammy-feeling positions and the real ones seem fairly few and far-between. Alternately, any Canadian-specific job boards that separate out positions that allow WFH?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      When I was actively searching last year, I got a short term membership to FlexJobs. I believe they are international.

    2. Emmie*

      I found my WFH job on Indeed, but it was a one-off thing. There are a lot of lists floating around about largest WFH employers. Maybe Google that, and search their job boards.

    3. motherofdragons*

      My sister is in your situation (US citizen living in Canada), and she found some remote work through Upwork.

    4. esra*

      What kind of work do you do? There are definitely boards that have Canadian jobs, but they tend to be industry-specific.

  26. Anna*

    Eep! I just got a call to go to an interview for a job I applied for last week. From the job description it sounded like a job I’d really like to do, but the requirements seemed like it might be a bit of a stretch. I applied anyway because of the ‘why not’ factor and basically had to myself going ‘eeee!’ when I got a call that I’d been short listed!

    Of course it’s just a first interview, and I’m not getting my hopes up, and I’ll be trying to approach this without the ‘dream job’ mindset, but still…it made the (early) start to my weekend a little bit brighter!

  27. PM Insurance*

    I think I am going to lose my job. Had a toxic manager, filed a complaint, and was transferred to a new manager. (took 9 months) One week later put on a performance notice. I don’t think there is any way to survive this, nor am I sure I really want to. The stress of this whole process has impacted my health to the point I have Intermittent FMLA

    I can’t quit, I would need unemployment. I used to be a great employee here (10+years) The toxic manager took its toll on me.
    Any advice? Anyone try to negotiate an end date?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        wth. The new manager put you on PIP after one week? Why even bother hiring you on? Something is amiss here. Is there an HR? You have been at this job for ten years, you must have allies some where.

    2. Maria*

      I’m sorry you’re in that situation, that sucks. :( Definitely devote everything you can to job hunting. I was in a similar situation last year and only got out because I managed to get another (much better) job before they could set me up enough to get rid of me. On another note, my health problems ended up improving dramatically once I was away from Toxic Job… Not sure what sort of issues you have, but you’d almost certainly be better off elsewhere, as long as you have access to the health insurance you need.

      I’m assuming you’ve documented everything? Even if it doesn’t save your job it might help you get unemployment. I wouldn’t talk about end dates because they might take that as a resignation. Good luck!

  28. Misty Watercolor Memories*

    I have a minor memory problem due to a previous head injury. It doesn’t affect my work or day-to-day things. However, when I try to work on my resume and describe previous jobs, I find I have little recollection of them. I can drum up memories based on previous work I saved, but I worry this could hinder me as I job search. Some of the jobs are 5 or 10 years ago, so perhaps people with regular memories can tell me if this is just common. How “top of mind” should this stuff be?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve seen the suggestion to keep a “master resume” type document with all the details of every one of your jobs that you can then tailor for specific submissions so that you don’t have to remember.

    2. Kim Possible*

      Actually, I don’t think this is all that uncommon. I was just telling my husband as I was updating my resume a couple days ago how hard of a time I had recalling a lot of my job duties from previous jobs. Going forward, I would just suggest updating your resume while you’re still at each job. That way, you’re not trying to remember work you did years and years prior.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is what I do. I keep it in a master resume, like Detective Amy Santiago suggested. And I also keep address, telephone, etc. information in a separate document–that really helped when I had to pull it out for a law enforcement internship application where they wanted practically everything I’d ever had.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This probably isn’t helpful to you now, but may be helpful the next time.

      I have a terrible memory, to the point where I have to rely on other narrators to remind me of funny/interesting anecdotes about things I was a definitely part of. So I suffer from the same thing as you when it comes to recalling achievements and details about past jobs for my resume and interview answers.

      As a result, I’ve started compiling a running list of achievements, potential resume lines, and experience that could be potential interview answers while I’m currently in my job. Having this list handy when it’s time to do a job search helps me recall my experiences and removes a lot of stress in creating application documents and formulating interview answers.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Definitely this! Also, if you have performance reports that are useful from previous jobs, they can help fill out details in the job summary. But it’s definitely useful to keep an up to date list as things happen.
        Also, if you’re relatively clear on the facts involving events and accomplishments but can’t recall the details, you can create an after-the-fact summary to pass along if people ask you about it. It’s unlikely an interviewer will ask you deep and probing questions about your emotional state and such, so it’s all right to basically recreate the event from the information you have.
        I’ve found it’s also very useful to get into the habit of documenting everything that’s even vaguely interesting in a journal or something similar. It doesn’t need to be an insightful look into your emotional state and such, it’s just to help trigger memories. (as someone who has permanent long-term personal recall issues from a head injury, this has been invaluable to me)
        Then, before an interview, you can go back and read various events to have something in the forefront of my memory. If someone asks me about a time I solved a problem with a coworker, I’ve already chosen which event I’m going to offer. As long as you’re careful not to sound scripted, it’s fine to pre-load your memory of events before a conversation about a previous job.

    5. Trixie*

      I keep track of my regular to-do lists which tends to help with recall. Reviewing my daily/weekly notes also helps when prepping for reviews.

    6. This is my real name*

      Would you consider asking HR for a copy of your job application from when you applied at your current employer? You could tell them that you lost some computer files recently, or something, if you don’t want to discuss your memory difficulties.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I actually randomly stumbled into it. I’d say I love it mainly because it’s mentally stimulating but not overly stressful (at least compared to classroom teaching, which is what I used to do).

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Right now I’m doing tech support at a school. Used to be an English teacher. So, still in education but doing something completely different.

    2. periwinkle*

      I’m in the workforce development field, broadly speaking. What I actually do (as opposed to what my job description says) is analysis of learning and other performance needs for our organization, plus act as an expert in learning science, evaluation, and technologies. I looooooove my job.

      So I started years ago in IT as a tech support geek and realized how much I loved troubleshooting down to root causes. I also realized I was more interested in how IT was used rather than IT itself. In later tech support roles I trained and coached others, which got me thinking about training in general. I also realized the impact of management decisions on how we could perform our jobs, which got me interested in performance improvement. When the startup I worked for went belly-up, I took a temp job which grew into a permanent position as an HR coordinator; that solidified my interest in both workforce development (beyond just training) and performance improvement. The really bad management there served as the final inspiration to leave and get my master’s in that field. The master’s program put as much emphasis on theory as on practical knowledge, which gave me an edge over people who knew the how but not the why (link back to my love of root cause analysis!).

      And that’s how I ended up here – I paid attention to what I enjoyed about each job and learned from what was going on in the work environment, and kept building on that until I was moving in the right direction. It might take a while – I graduated from that master’s program at age 47!

    3. NW Mossy*

      I work in retirement plans (which is why I’m commenting a lot on the short-answer post today!), and I love it – it’s a great blend of math, writing, and relationships and is always offering me new things to learn. It’s nerdy, but endlessly interesting and puts up lots of complex puzzles to solve.

      I got into it very much by accident, which is very common in this field. I had been working for a property/casualty insurance brokerage that went under suddenly when the owner was indicted, and a colleague there referred me to his sister’s employer that was looking for an entry-level person. That was 14 years ago and while that company itself was kind of dysfunctional, it set me on a path to a really rewarding career.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Higher ed! I loved my undergrad experience a lot and had a professional interest in it, so here I am. I’m not paid much, but I love what I do and feel good about helping students every day.

      1. LAI*

        I work in higher ed too! I advise college students. Love it. Also kind of fell into it by accident – I was an orientation counselor for other students when I was still in undergrad, and really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, I started looking for similar roles. This is why I always tell my students that it’s so important to do internships or get work experience in school, because this is how you figure out what you like or don’t like doing. I had probably a dozen jobs before that orientation job.

    5. BusStuff*

      I work in the transportation industry.

      I ended up in this field through a college job actually. I graduated school with a liberal arts degree(a concentration in Medieval Literature). But during my time in college I worked for my university’s transportation organization, obtaining my CDL(Commercial Drivers License), and eventually managing our paratransit division. When it came time to do a full time job search, it only made sense for me to continue in transportation management.

      I love the field because of the people in it primarily. We deal with all socioeconomic groups, both as passengers and within our organizations. But at the end of the day, we want to help people and are always doing our best to figure out how we can make a route more efficient(provide service to more people, faster, cheaper fare, etc). Its a really down to earth group of people who are idealists at heart, but are well versed in making practical decisions. Plus, I love big vehicles! That’s really what pulled me in, I absolutely loved driving a bus. Now I’m stuck behind a desk, but I still get to sneak out and drive a loop or two occasionally!

        1. Bus Stuff*

          haha I love it! I once saw bumper stickers that said “Do not let the pigeon drive this vehicle!” and desperately tried to convince my boss that we needed to get them for our fleet. Sadly he said it would be unprofessional!

    6. Jadelyn*

      Fell into it by accident via a temp job – I was sent by a temp agency to do filing and data entry support for an HR department at a nonprofit, finished that sort of stuff fast enough that I had extra time, started asking questions and offering to help with other projects, luckily the team was very welcoming and happy to share knowledge and work with me, and I discovered I really liked working in HR. So with everyone’s encouragement I went back to school, got my degree in HRM, and am making a career out of it.

      I love that it’s constant variety – no two days are exactly the same. That’s been a HUGE problem for me at past jobs, I get bored easily and when I get bored I stop bothering to do things at all. I have a relatively high degree of autonomy and am frequently dealing with complex situations, and I like that. I’ve got a good head for regulations and laws – I’ve been an activist for many years prior to this so I’m used to reading bills and figuring out the practical outcomes they’re going to lead to – and how they interact, so I enjoy keeping up on labor law developments; since I’m in California, I get a double dose of that stuff since our labor laws are often more intense than the Federal equivalents. I get to feel like I’m contributing something useful to support people (thankfully our organization has a very pro-employee HR philosophy, so we’re not just guardians of compliance or management watchdogs – we actually are here to help our employees) and making a difference, both in their work-lives and in the world as a whole since I’m working for a nonprofit – but I don’t have to spend a ton of time directly interacting with people, because I’ve been able to take a systems and tech-focused role dealing with our HRIS and our nascent analytics initiative.

      And if nothing else, “HR” as a discipline encompasses a ton of possible specialities, so there’s always new directions to explore without having to completely start over in a new field if I want a change.

    7. Yams*

      I work in sales, and I really like it. It’s stressful, sure, but there is a lot of interaction with a ton of different people. I specially love not sitting in an office all day long! Technically my position also includes supply chain management and logistics, which I love! I set up JIT system for industrial customers, which is a big pain but a lot of fun because I get to make all the pieces go together. I honestly kind of stumbled into it when a friend recommended me for the position, but I haven’t regretted it ever since.

    8. misspiggy*

      I got into my field (international development) through a process of elimination. I worked out that I didn’t want to work for a profit making concern, but that government and charities in the UK would be far too depressing to work in (for various reasons to do with politics at the time). And I was well into environmental issues, so I figured that supporting people in developing countries would speed up the process of societies becoming more environmentally sustainable. And, I confess I was desperate to travel and see the world, which played into it more than I would admit at the time.

    9. CG*

      International relations. I got to it by getting degrees in related fields, moving to the right cities where there are actually related jobs, and working in a lot of jobs that were all incremental steps toward what I wanted to do. A lot of people who want to be in this field really don’t get that you don’t (USUALLY) just get a bachelor’s in international relations and then just get immediately recruited by the State Department or something.

      Oh man, I don’t know… I think my field is living the dream for a lot of people! I like it because I get to travel the world, I get to talk to people from all over in all kinds of different roles, I get to work on policy issues that are really important to me, and in my job specifically, I get to scratch the itch on multiple disparate things that I like: public speaking/networking, science, pressure situation problem solving, and writing. Plus, I just find the topics really, really cool, and I’m nerdy about them inside and outside of work.

    10. The Expendable Redshirt*

      I’m a type of informal trustee for people who have a mental health diagnosis. I found my way to the field through semi-focused occupational meandering. Things started out in the homeless sector where I was a frontline worker. There were times when (for fun) I would help clients with setting up a budget. Then I moved to the disability sector as a community support worker. When the informal trustee position opened up, I applied for the internal position and was successful. When I graduated from university (with a liberal arts degree), I had NO CLUE that informal trusteeship was in the future. What I love about my job: Everything. It’s fantastic to see the concrete and direct results of my program. Some of the cool things this week include 1) A client avoided being evicted because his rent was paid. 2) A client set up a disability retirement plan. 3) A client with a history of addiction bought a GIC investment 4) Peoples have enough food and spending money.

    11. Windchime*

      I’m in IT and am basically a SQL programmer with some reporting thrown in. I got into it by accident. I was working in a billing office at a big medical clinic and became friends with some of the people in the IT department. I thought it looked interesting, so I signed up to take classes in networking and desktop support at my local community college. One of the requirements was that we take a programming class. I was hooked on the first day and I’ve been doing some form of programming for about 17 years now.

    12. Bea W*

      Accidentally fell into it. I work with research data, and I just found it makes my brain happy. I don’t know how quite to describe it.

    13. Optimistic Prime*

      Progressive revelation, sort of. I’m a user experience researcher in technology. I started off as a behavioral health researcher, using the same skills but applying them to understand how people’s behavior and social interactions affect their health. The issue was that I love research in general – I like writing, I love analyzing data, I love thinking through big problems and trying to answer my own questions. But there were lots of mismatches between that particular field and my work style – most of it’s academia, and the pace was too slow, I’d have little control over where I lived geographically, and the work-life balance was awful. So I did an internship in graduate school in market research, and it just happened to be in the video games division of this market research company (not really a coincidence – this was 6 years ago but I am pretty sure I mentioned it somehow).

      Well, I really liked it – and I really liked working in the corporate sector. Faster pace, more desirable employment centers, and better work-life balance, among other things. Some further Internet research showed me that UX was kind of a “cousin” field of market research which seemed even more appealing because I could have direct product impact, and I decided that if I didn’t go into academia that’s what I’d pursue (with market research as a backup). Fast forward 4 years; I had a great postdoctoral fellowship but I didn’t like it at all! So after I’d completely burned out of academia and was more sure that I didn’t want a career there, I started pursuing UX and market research jobs. I found this job online of all places – I didn’t know anyone – but I interviewed and now I’m here.

  30. Icklebicklebits*

    So I work in an hourly job that’s important but market norm is consistently under $20/hr. We pay about mid level in the range, maybe a shade on the higher side. When we were hiring a while ago I mentioned to my boss that it’s nice that we get paid even that much because a lot of places around here will pay the lower end or even minimum wage. But I think that we need to pay more to attract more talent and I think I may have shot myself in the foot when it comes to getting raises, which happens (no really) once every three or four years. We don’t even get cost of living increases. How can I backtrack what I said when the rest of the market is going up around us?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Hey boss, let’s talk about a raise.”

      “Wait. You said we pay more than other places. Why do you need a raise?”

      “I assumed we paid more because we want better quality people. That’s why I like working here. That mindset isn’t going away, is it?”

  31. claire*

    I started a new job and my coworker who sits behind me, whispers to me. I’m quiet and had this happen at previous toxic work place, so I may be a little sensitive…. But it’s annoying to have someone whisper at you. She did it in front of the IT guy- she whispered “Good Morning, Fergus!” and it was embarrassing. I know that I’m quiet and speak softly, but that’s just me. Other people in the office can be soft spoken, so why pick on me? Plus, she’s a good 25 years older than me!

    I might still have some residual anger left over from previous toxic work place and may be sensitive to it, but is there a way to nip this in the bud in a professional manner? I don’t know how to deal with this.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This is what I would do. Don’t reward or give any attention to the behavior you don’t like. Only give attention to the desired behavior.

        It works with children and dogs; no reason why it shouldn’t work on coworkers too. ;)

    2. CM*

      Are you sure she’s picking on you? I think your past experience is causing you to interpret this as an insult, but maybe it’s just a weird habit. If she’s always whispering, not just “good morning,” you can politely ask her to speak a little louder.

      1. only acting normal*

        They’re mimicking/exaggerating Claire’s soft speaking voice. They may not intend it meanly, but as jokes go, making fun of the new kid’s mannerisms is pretty mean. They need to know their audience to know if a joke is going to land right, and they obviously don’t know Claire yet as Claire is new.
        I have a colleague who jokingly accuses me of being too loud (I’m also softly spoken, but in no way shy or unassertive) – but we’ve known each other for 10 years, he knows I don’t mind (he’s also kind of making fun of his own acknowledged loudness), and if I did mind I’d feel empowered to tell him to quit it… it would not be the same dynamic if he’d only known me a few weeks and I was the new girl.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t see in your description why it’s picking on you, but you can certainly ask for her to greet you in her normal voice (assuming that the whisper isn’t her normal voice): “Sorry, Jane, I don’t hear whispers very well. What’d you say? . . . Oh, good morning to you too.”

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Is it possible she just has a quiet voice?

      I have a coworker who totally sounds like she’s whispering. It’s just her voice!

      1. LQ*

        I moved to a new spot recently and the person across from me greets me similarly. It’s because she thinks I’m quiet somehow?! (I’m mostly gone at meetings and that’s fooling her, because I am an inappropriately loud person most of the time.) But it’s a collegial and pleasant way to greet and acknowledge me, including that she thinks I’m quiet. (She’s said you’re so quiet several times. To which I have laughed raucously.)

    6. Jemima Bond*

      My reaction would be to sing out, “good morning!” in a sort of Julie Andrews fashion (to demonstrate that there’s no need to whisper) or stage-whisper, “what’s up, why are we whispering?” to find out what the deal is.

    7. JustaTech*

      When I notice a coworker is starting to whisper in a conversation with me I make sure to keep my voice at a normal volume. People tend to match the volume of those around them, and it’s an indication that I’m not going to whisper.
      But it doesn’t sound like she’s trying to be mean, unless you think she’s mocking you (which would be super obnoxious).

    8. HannahS*

      Wait, she’s whispering prompts to you? Like as if you’re a little shy child? That’s…really weird. I’d spin around in my chair and say, “Pardon, Jane?” Never do the thing she whispers at you to do. Repeat, “Did you say something?” or “Didn’t quite catch that, could you speak up, please?” or “Sorry, Jane, but I can’t seem to catch what you’re saying when you whisper.” All with a pleasant, puzzled smile. You don’t have to pretend you can’t hear her, just that you have trouble understanding whispers. It’s a real thing, I promise, because I genuinely can’t understand whispering. I can’t read lips, and all whispering sounds like to me is “HuhSHMAHSHMUhsshhhhhh mushmushHAMSHH” accompanied by someone’s hot breath on my neck.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Address it head on.
      Jane, if you want me to hear what you just said then you will need to use a regular speaking voice or I probably will miss what you said.

      Don’t let this go on and on. Don’t correlate this to your previous job. Tell yourself that previous job is over now. And remind yourself that comparing this job to your old job will not help you succeed at this job.

    10. Specialk9*

      Get a white noise machine, and/or get headphones. That way you won’t hear someone behind you creepily whispering at you, or you can pretend you don’t.

      1. Specialk9*

        But btw, I wouldn’t assume the whispering co-worker is bullying you. They might have highly developed sympathetic neurons, and are trying to act like makes you comfortable. Not to discount your instinct, but you did mention a toxic old job. Another possibility.

  32. Eva*

    How do you guys deal with butting up against slow moving and older policies and “workplace norms” and the advance of technology?

    I’ve had multiple times in my current career where I’ve seen a new piece of software or hardware come out that was reasonably priced, solved a need, and would greatly increase workplace productivity with little to no overhead cost. But my organization just can’t do it, ever. They have regulations that specifically prohibit agility when it comes to technology, and some of them are for good reason, but most are outdated at best, and actually against best practices at worst.

    As an example, they just implemented a sweeping change to our password protocols, and every single new restriction is against the recent suggestions goes against the newest NIST guidelines, nearly word for word. NIST says stop doing X, they now require us to do X, because five years ago people thought that was a good idea and they just now caught up.

    How do you suck it up and keep going day to day when you know it could be better if the people in charge were actually up to date and knowledgeable like they should be?

    1. Eva*

      Also, I maybe should specify that I don’t work in IT. I just use technology for my job on a day to day basis, and try to stay up to date on the newest recommendations because it affects my work. I have no power or influence in our IT department whatsoever, beyond you know, the one IT guy that is nice to me because I don’t call him until after I’ve turned it off and back on again.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Are you me? It’s taken a year for me to make headway in Current Job. My supervisor is finally accepting that using tools will solve a lot of his problems in tracking and managing work. He’s just not tech-savvy. But I hear ya on the outdated policies. I fight about SharePoint usage daily. IT just sent me a rather snotty email about uploading files to SharePoint. What the hell do they think it’s for?

        1. Eva*

          Sharepoint is actually one of the things that’s on the long list of problems. They won’t let us have it at all, even though we have no method for sharing files that need to be shared to actually do our work properly. We all end up emailing files (super safe protocol there guys) and then they send out notices talking about not just trusting every attachment you get. It’s an endless loop.

    2. Uncivil Engineer*

      Unless you’re in a position to recommend a change, you have to just let it go. My workplace (a gov agency) is like this. We upgrade our systems to be 10 versions newer and IT thinks we should be ecstatic… but we bought the version that came out 3 years ago and there are newer ones available so what we have is nowhere near the current version. I refocused my annoyance on things I can change like the outdated interview questions we’ve been recycling for years.

      1. Eva*

        That’s a big part of what’s frustrating me. They roll out a software upgrade that’s upgrading to something from 2010 that doesn’t actually do the things we need it to do at this point, or worse the company that makes it doesn’t even support the software anymore and we only just go it.

        I try to take a deep breath and just do what I can with what I’ve got, but I think my tolerance for it gets smaller every time it happens, and then somebody asks me to suggest ways to increase productivity and I just want to scream.

        1. Jadelyn*

          To be honest, you might want to start looking for a new job, because it sounds like this is a huge issue for you and yet not one you have the power to do much about. I think this falls under the category of “Your boss/company sucks and isn’t going to change”, where you just have to decide if you can put up with it or not and stay or go accordingly.

    3. Phoenix Programmer*

      I feel you. We just went open office even though it’s falling out of style due to reports of how awful out is. I am convinced we went open because it looks nicer.

      1. Eva*

        I hate open offices. I can understand why people think they’re more polished looking, but there’s so much evidence that it backfires and doesn’t work the way management wants it to work. Which I guess is the way things are, huh?

    4. Jadelyn*

      I wish I had an answer for you. I’ve joked with my team that I’m going to drag this company into the 21st century kicking and screaming if I have to, because I’m a tech geek and I see SO much potential in our HRIS for things we could be using it for and just…aren’t bothering to right now.

      For me it’s a combination of letting things go in order to stay sane when I know I’m not going to make any headway, and picking my battles when I think I have a proposal that stands a chance. And when I do put forth a proposal, make sure I’ve got reams of backup data to support it.

    5. LQ*

      I’ve done 2 things. (I work for government.)
      1. Attack the other half of the problem. Technology is only part of the problem, there are so many things that are human problems, not tech problems. And those that are human problems I can work on I do.
      2. Become a one woman solution to tech problems with back door tools. I managed to do this by teeny tiny bits and bites until I was solving significant organizational problems with things like SharePoint (which I managed to after a lot of time and trust built wrestled my way into having full control on our site collection), google drive/doc/forms, and even the lowly lan drive and word/excel/access documents. Like sure I can build a learning management system with it, I can build a content management system, I can build a performance review system, I can build just about everything but getting you coffee with it.

      And they just moved me into a project where I can drive where technology is going to be aiming for the next 10 years for our program. It’s AWESOME. (And there are going to be so very very many battles ahead of me, but I feel like all of this history was building me up to being here and having this power in the advance of technology.)

      1. LQ*

        (I also don’t work in IT, I’m on the business side, though barely, they’ve tried several times to reclassify my job to be in IT but I cling to the business side of things because weirdly the IT side doesn’t seem better and I have a good ear this way.)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Not really helpful, but that seems pretty normal for government. Matter of fact auditors suggest control methods that went by the wayside 20 years ago. Taxpayer dollars hard at work. I try not to think about it.

      You can look around for rock-the-boat type people. These are people from different departments that may influence TPTB.
      You can decide that you will be come great at making archaic work.
      You can decide that there are too many other things that are right about the job and it suits your purposes for the moment. This one has helped me a lot. I have been hitting personal goals repeatedly. So not all of life is stagnating for me.
      You can print out and give your boss ideas on things that would be better. (I only do this with things that I know my boss can change. I don’t want to frustrate her any more than she already is. For this reason, I present ideas in the form of options. She is consistently very wise and chooses among options very well, she picks up on things I missed.)

  33. anonhere*

    Is it possible to be the BEC when you just started a new job?

    I’m quiet and introverted, but I tried my best to socialize. I told funny stories and everyone laughed at lunch the first week, but then after that they made excuses or ditched me. They’re more outgoing and extroverted than me. I feel like I don’t fit in at all. They’re all married and have kids- I don’t. I wouldn’t fit in with the 20-something singles who party either… It’s very clique-y by ethnic groups as well.

    I just don’t know what to do. I take lunch by myself and my boss asked me if I was happy at my job because she didn’t want me to leave. I like to have time by myself to call others or surf the web. I just want to fit in.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Nah. This was me when I started at my current job. I don’t party. I’m not married with kids, either. It took some time, but, I eventually found another person like me. Since we were both quiet it wasn’t easy to find each other! Just stick it out. Not the best advice, I know, but it’s true!

    2. Red 5*

      I’ve found that generally at most of my jobs, I end up being in a situation very similar to this when I start. It just takes me a really long time to get settled and either find my people and/or figure out who actually ARE my people. For example, at my current job I went in not really expecting to find people who were as into nerd interests as I am because that’s how my last job was. But it turns out it just wasn’t the top of the discussion heap, and as time went on I found people who maybe weren’t my age but we had the same favorite movie. Or they like to party when I’d rather stay home, but we listen to the same kind of podcasts on our commute.

      I don’t know that I have any advice to offer, because those early days are always rough. And I’m not going to lie and say it always works out, I had one job where I never ended up having a single thing in common with anybody there after they fired the one friend I had. But in most jobs I’ve had, I’ve ended up with at least a few friends. I still eat lunch by myself usually because I’m like that (I need time to not be “on”) and skip the after work happy hours, but I don’t feel like I’m by myself either.

      Good luck. I do hope you find an equilibrium.

    3. fposte*

      Can you identify what it is you want from them? I can’t tell if you want to have lunch with them or want to spend that time on the phone and surfing the web. Are they pleasant and professional with you when you need to talk to them for work things? If so, I suspect it’s not that they dislike you but that they went back to their usual practice after spending a week or so welcoming the new person.

      What I’d do is stop looking at them as groups and instead find one or two sympathetic, maybe quieter people to open up to a little more. That doesn’t mean you have to go to dinner with them–just that you share a little more watercooler talk with them, or mention where you’re going on vacation, etc. A lot of times what people are looking for isn’t funny stories but a look into your life.

    4. CG*

      To add on to what some of the other comments said, it sounds like you’re approaching this from a “how do I get everyone to like me all at once?” perspective, but… I agree with fposte: rather than trying to connect with the whole group all at once, try one-on-one with a few folks first. Ask if your closest work neighbor will grab coffee or lunch with you later in the week, or ask someone about their family/history in the field/local sports team fandom/whatever you notice they might want to discuss, and then go from there.

      Please will warm to you, but as the others have said, I’ve usually found in new jobs that after the first few days of trying hard to be inclusive to the new person, people (reasonably!) fall back into their normal patterns of office social interaction, so you slowly have to work into those as you become a more regular part of the office too.

    5. The Expendable Redshirt*

      Embrace the situation?
      You may be at a workplace where you honestly do fit in. Like you, I’m an introverted and quiet person. For me, solitude is a blessing, and I must make an effort to eat lunch with my coworkers. And yet, I do feel like I fit in at work. There are a few coworkers that I have a connection with on an individual basis. My tribe is that of the Nerdy Cat Enthusiasts. Everyone is friendly here, but I can only have soul connecting conversations about cats with a few people. Your being at a new job may also be a factor. In my case, it took about two years for my brain to put a people in the “Coworker-friend” category. Lastly, spend some time examining WHY you feel that you don’t fit in. Is it because you aren’t in the same life-place as your coworkers? Are you upset that you aren’t eating lunch with them? Once you know what’s missing, you can work on a solution.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Decide you like them.
      Seriously.
      Often times we spend too much time thinking about, “Do cohorts like me?” and we fail to decide if we like them or not.
      If you decide you like them that will come out in your tone and your actions. It will show in your thoughtful gestures. They will tend to warm up to you.

      I hate to say this because it’s hard to do, but when I first join a workplace I tell myself that “It’s all about them.” Initially there can be very little reciprocity, I take an interest in their lives and their families and I get nothing back or so it seems.
      It takes time. Six months? a year? It takes buckets of time. Suddenly they start noticing and conversational stuff comes up: “How did you make out with your car problem?” or “who cuts your hair, is it someone near by?” This is a talk less and listen more type of answer. Ask them questions about themselves. Don’t expect yourself to be humorous and the life of the party every day. You’re not there to provide entertainment for them, just like they don’t entertain you. It’s not fair of you to expect this of yourself.

      I had a subordinate who would not take lunch with her cohorts and then wondered why they did not interact with her. I think it’s fine to eat lunch alone, but the other half of the story is what are you willing to do to build some type of relationship with people? It might be unfair, I think the onus is on the new person to reach out first and reach out consistently. It starts with saying good morning and moves on to showing concern for others as the workday drags on. It’s very tiring, to me. I have to get extra rest the first few months because I am more introverted, than extroverted. But the extra rest does kick me over to the side of being able to do this.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        PS. I am widowed with no kids. So finding things in common with coworkers can be a life long search. Reality is that even if you had a spouse and kids like they do that does not mean automatic bonding. It’s helpful to know that people love it when we show concern about those they love. For example asking someone how their sick child is doing can go a long way in solidifying a working relationship. People are usually touched that we even remembered.

        1. Specialk9*

          Yeah. If you find someone has a kid or dog or safe-for-work hobby, ask to see a photo. They’ll either have one then, or will go home and take one. Most people like to tell stories about their interests.

  34. My Cat Posted This For Me*

    Anyone have any stories about how you dealt with difficult faculty members? I’m at a large public university, working in one of the colleges. We have a couple of star faculty members who are giving our small staff team some problems.

    Professor Drusilla is kind of a victim-bully: she gets more direct service than just about any other faculty member (which is fine, she’s a star), but no matter how much she gets, she bitterly complains that our college does nothing for her. Bitterly and relentlessly. Her most recent request to me was blatantly BS—not my job, not a legitimate request—think something like “why does no one bring my team coffee? why must they walk to the cart outside for it? why does the college neglect them this way?”—only with something my team produces. I have no problem deflecting with a “oh, you must need to know the number of the coffee cart!” but she’s befriended a member of my team and harasses her repeatedly via text. And the way she frames things as her being neglected sucks people in.

    Professor Darla recently ramped up her requests to an absurd level, getting upset when we kept saying yes to her because we had the temerity to also ask for a description of the project and a timeline. The email chain is amusing. Less amusing is that she’s apparently starting to complain around the college about my service, which has been excellent. That’s crossing a line.

    I’m really fine with boundary setting and feel I can do it in a polite, professional and low conflict way, per my example. My supervisor is less comfortable with that. I think approaching our dean might eventually be the way to go.

    I’d love to hear your stories of how you handled difficult faculty.

    1. jillybean*

      It’s really depended on the faculty member. I’m at an academic library, and while we aren’t tenured, we are faculty. With difficult professors, I first stress that we are colleagues; I am not support staff. It sounds like you have to work with the professors, though? A technique that works well for me is ending no’s with yes. “I’m sorry, we can’t assign a librarian to you to conduct all of your literature reviews, but we’d be happy to train your graduate assistant to do so. In fact, we offer these resources for graduate students etc etc etc”

      If Professor Fancypants tries to turn to one of my reports, I have the report bounce PF right back to me, with a “Jillybean is the one to talk to about that.”

      IME, troublesome faculty are difficult in almost every venue, and people have their number. If Professor Fancypants starts talking smack about us, I feel pretty assured that no one is going to listen.

      And lastly, my dean has our back. When I’ve set boundaries, she has always stood at the ready to reinforce them. (I do give her a heads up when someone is being difficult, so she knows to be ready!)

    2. Anonymous for this one*

      I had a passive-aggressive faculty member who was driving me crazy – very entitled and pushy but also all her requests were in the vein of ‘someone should do something about…’ I finally called her on it, politely, saying something like “if you have a specific suggestion, please let me know,” and I asked her if she would be willing to participate in [the activity she had been complaining about]. I was worried she’d be awful to me after that but actually I think it really helped. She is polite now and doesn’t seem to hold it against me at all. I think she bullies until someone stands up to her; if you show weakness, she keeps at it. So she mostly tortures the younger staff. This may not be helpful with your faculty but might be worth a try.

      1. My Cat Posted This For Me*

        I really feel like we have the same dynamic here (maybe not the young part but otherwise), and I definitely refuse to show my soft underbelly. But I wonder about repercussions, not sure my supervisor will back me up, etc. That’s why I’m interested in getting more personal experiences for greater context. Thanks for sharing yours!

    3. Dr. Doll*

      I find that if you stand firm and don’t fall for the bs, they back down quickly. And, if they are vicious, people know that and only their equally vicious cronies will give them time. Faculty have less actual power than you think. –Caution: Medical schools are different. Vicious faculty there can actually do damage to you.

      One difficult guy that we work with is difficult because he never responds on time, never attends scheduled meetings, and then shows up randomly and wants attention immediately. One thing I did was give my staff very firm direction to do the minimum for him — give him *exactly* what he asked for and not a tiny bit more, and then *not* to follow up to see if he’s happy. This wasn’t to be passive aggressive and provide him lesser service than anyone else, this was to protect them from spending their energy fretting that they weren’t serving him adequately. Regarding the showing up randomly, if they are not otherwise committed they can meet, but otherwise they are to say “Oh, gee, I am in the middle of something, can we schedule for Thursday.” And if he ever raises his voice or says something even the tiniest bit mean they are to tell me immediately. This might work for Professor Drusilla.

      For Professor Darla, it may be worth creating a policy. “We accept projects only if they are accompanied by a description.” That way it’s not you, it’s the policy. If you need to defend the policy to your supervisor, it’s so that you can work efficiently.

      Good luck. Faculty can be the strangest people, soooo smart with suuuuch big blind spots.

    4. Yup*

      I’d advise being firm and direct, as others have suggested; more importantly, I’d strongly advise you NOT approach the dean. That would be such an asymmetrical reaction to a fairly mundane (though, I understand, annoying) problem, that I think it would really backfire on you.

      I’m not trying to minimize your irritation at the issue here, but deans are super-busy, it’s the start of term, they deal with faculty above all and unless there’s an egregious offense, will not take kindly being talked to about service request issues. There are so many steps in between where you are and talking to a dean (which is not something that you would do, but a higher up anyway) – just, my advice: don;t go that route.

      1. My Cat Posted This For Me*

        That’s the kind of context I was looking for. Thanks! I probably should have clarified that I provide direct support to the dean, although there are two (very thin) layers of bosses above me. There are lots of times when my job requires me to meet one-on-one with him and he frequently praises my work. That doesn’t mean that approaching him is the right way to go, though.

  35. Luce21*

    I recently started a new job at a large nonprofit. Since I started in the Spring, they have lost nearly 10% of their employees.. One who had been working here for over 20 years. Three left without notice. This is mostly due to bad moral and questionable management techniques.

    On a scale from 1 to having a six month job listing on my resume, how much should I be looking for a new job?

    1. Keeping My Head Down*

      I wonder if you work at my company. The turnover is insane, and sometimes it really feels like rats from a drowning ship.

      The way I always try to look at it is, it’s always a good idea to keep your resume up to date and keep your mind and eyes open to new possibilities. But don’t bail out until your cubicle is taking on water. Exit strategies are great, but I’ve found in my own org that I actually haven’t had a hard time carving out a spot for myself that’s relatively stable and I can stay away from the drama at the top. And there’s plenty of people here that are doing just that, getting the job done and letting the top of the heap argue.

      But after some of the more high profile departures, there’s always that kernel of doubt for sure.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      If you’ve been there a full season, I think you should be able to tell how much drama will impact you by now. It’s possible that there’s some toxic stuff at the higher levels that doesn’t trickle down, etc. I worked at an awful place and I knew it on my first day. At my current job, there’s some toxic stuff but I was shielded from it for years.

    3. Andraste*

      Get out. Been there, done that (maybe at the same nonprofit? or are there so many that are terrible from the inside?). Bad nonprofit jobs are soul crushing. You feel like you are wasting time and money and it will crush the passion that led you to get involved in the first place. Take the resume hit and leave ASAP.

    5. Chaordic One*

      You should be looking for a new job. If a potential employer actually thinks that your being at your current job for only six months is red flag, they are unlikely to invest the time to interview you in the first place. Anyway, it NEVER hurts to apply and interview for other jobs. You’ll never get another job if you don’t make the effort and even if you don’t get hired for a position you interview for, it is almost always good practice.

  36. anonhereagain*

    Are offices always dramatic and catty? I’m at my second office job and it’s all based on gossip, rumors, sitting around talking most of the time, everyone knows your business, etc. There are times when work gets done, but otherwise you’re just supposed to sit around and talk and laugh? It’s a little bit better than previous toxic office, but not by much. I envy those who work from home!

    1. Rincat*

      Not always, my current workplace doesn’t seem to be that way. I have been in this position for 6 months and it’s a refreshing change from my old one, which was dramatic and catty. Like many things, it gets back to management…my last office had bad managers that wouldn’t manage and let morale plummet and problems fester, so everyone just complained and gossiped. In my new one, my managers are waaaay better and actually do their jobs, so work gets done and drama isn’t tolerated. They’re out there, just have to look! Not saying that it’s easy to find them, but you can!

    2. Red 5*

      I wouldn’t say it’s always, but I think there’s an aspect of that frequently around, and it gets amplified in places that are otherwise dysfunctional. Bad management breeds this kind of thing very efficiently.

      At my open plan office, everybody has invested in headphones. Not ear buds, actual “you can see them from ten feet away” headphones. When you have them on it’s a general signal that you’re not up for chatting, and it helps tamp down all the other noise. And by invest I mean a pair is about $15 I think, they don’t have to be actually that great.

      It’s not perfect, people still talk to me when I have them on, but usually I then look up and the person will either motion or say that it wasn’t important, or I’ll take my headphones off and they’ll just repeat what they said without getting upset about it or anything, and usually apologize for interrupting.

      But then, my office right now can be spectacularly dramatic but not in the way you’re describing, so we actually do want to facilitate people getting their job done.

    3. Excel Slayer*

      I think there’s always gossip and drama in my workplace, but nowhere near as bad as you seem to be describing.

    4. Berry*

      My first job the main office staff (who was all either family or worked there for 8+ years) would spend a good portion of every day talking about each other behind each other’s back – it was a mess. Of course it didn’t help that they had known each other for so long/intimately. I tried to not share much about myself and stay out of their feuds, so no idea what they said about me, but it sucked.

      However, my current office is great! It’s larger and everyone is very friendly – yeah there are often people chatting, but work still gets done and it feels like a good balance. (This is an open office space, the last one was each person had their own pseudo-room office.) So no, definitely not all offices, I’m never stressed out worrying what people are saying. And of course, it’s always easy here to just remove yourself from the conversation and keep working if you don’t want to participate.

    5. Fishcakes*

      Not always, but it can get like that if management doesn’t stomp it out or model professional behaviour.

      In my current workplace it is not ok to be nasty or mean, but management is absent/lax so staff often chat all day long.

    6. Windchime*

      No. My workplace isn’t like this. Don’t get me wrong, people are pleasant and social and sometimes have short (5 minutes) conversations about non-work stuff. But for the most part, we are all focusing on work. My team is very much a zero-drama zone and I like it that way. No gossiping about other team members (at least not that I’m aware of) and no eye-rolling or backbiting. I love it.

    7. BlueShedSurvived!*

      No, not every office is like that, and I empathize with you and your current situation. It’s a toxic environment that managers need to take seriously and get under control. It definitely gets in the way of work getting done. How much is it costing the company $$-wise and reputation-wise?

      In my experience, there is usually one person or one office relationship dynamic at the center of this unhealthy office dynamic. Reassignment, layoffs, and or firing can be a good place to start on a remedy.

      Don’t lose hope. I remember thinking a healthy workplace doesn’t exist and felt very depressed. It took over a decade but eventually I found a relatively healthy office environment. People behave as responsible adults. I had no idea that there was past toxicity (gossip and pettiness and lawsuits) but over time, I heard stories about things that had happened. There were still some hard feelings between two of the remaining players but over the past three years, those people have been terminated via layoff and highly encouraged retirement. No major conflicts currently exist. No past baggage exists. Employees really care about their jobs, work together well and there is no gossiping. It’s by far the healthiest office environment in which I’ve ever had the pleasure to work.

      So hang in there, some day you’ll find that office environment where people come to work to work. In other words, an office staffed by healthy adults.

    8. Specialk9*

      Ugh, no! That sounds awful.

      What’s up with management? Do they not care that people are chatting and not working?

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh, wait. My co-workers weren’t like this. Clients were often tornadoes of insane clowns, but also often lovely.

  37. Jimbo*

    Hi all, just thought I’d share some data from my job hunting spreadsheet. Between November, 2016 and September 2017, I sent out 47 job applications. I got responses from 11 of them, which is a 23 percent response rate. Of these eleven responses, ten were interviews and one was a request for work samples prior to being invited for an interview.

    I got to the second or third interview stage five times before I was rejected as a candidate or the employer simply just stopped responding. I rejected two employers as not a good fit and three interviews are right now scheduled and pending for this or next week.

    I color coded how many times per month I sent in applications and realized that I was getting interviews at the rate of one or two per month steadily since November 2016. The more applications I sent per month, the more interviews I got. In August, 2017 I sent 17 applications and have four interviews either done or scheduled into the next week.

    I found that days elapsed from the time I first sent in an application to a decision by the employer (1st interview or final rejection) can vary a lot. For three jobs I got a response from employers to do a preliminary phone screening within 1 to 2 days after I sent in an application. For other employers, it took two weeks or more before they contacted me for an initial screening.

    Getting rejected for jobs after two or three rounds of interviews took 16-58 days for the employers where I got that far. Three employers ghosted me after two to three rounds of interviews — they simply just stopped responding to my emails. Not even a rejection letter was sent.

    Overall, not a bad rate of response and activity. I was disheartened at first when I saw how many applications I have sent since last year and still no job as of today. But in the interest of staying positive and persevering, it does help to put your activities in a spreadsheet so you can get an objective, big picture view so when you are feeling hopeless and disheartened, looking at things objectively and systematically can help your mental state towards a more positive frame of mind.

    1. Incognito*

      I love this. I had to start a spreadsheet just to keep straight what I had applied for and what things were in what stage. The job market for me is just very busy, and it was impossible to keep track otherwise. Now you’ve given me something else to do with that spreadsheet!

    2. Henry*

      Keep up your spirits, you are getting a good amount of interviews. It took me a solid 4 months to find the right job. Sometimes it all comes down to timing and luck. I personally don’t have great experiences with recruiters but if they are available in your field, they seem to know which employers need to hire immediately. I had a few different organizations draw out the interview process to 2 months. You want an organization that wants you and can be decisive when making an offer.

    3. Specialk9*

      It took my husband nearly 2 years. What turned things around was finding a career coach. She listened closely and knew his general field, reworked the cover letter and resume, gave interview advice that was brilliant and exactly what he needed to hear (his questions were inadvertently revealing his own past workplace baggage, instead of focusing on what they needed, which was positivity and focus on how to solve their challenges), talked through each interview. He found the coach by looking up the correct certs, found a local company, and put in an internet request. They matched him with someone familiar with his field and career stage.

      An important step before that was taking a career attitude test by the Johnson O’Connor Foundation. My friend did it when she wanted a major career shift, and it really helped her make that massive shift. It helped my husband with the most important question (Should I switch fields? Actually, no, you’re in a good one for you, but you need a company like this), and hugely helped me understand this complicated person so I could give better advice. It also helped him understand why some past jobs were hard for him when he thought they shouldn’t have been. It’s an 8-hour test – over two days ideally – and then a thorough debrief. It helped keep him from haring off on other paths (grad school? own business? internship?) and let him focus on one area. That was hugely helpful.

      So, to sum up, career coach, and Johnson O’Connor Foundation testing.

  38. Free Meerkats*

    It sounds like the other guy we wanted from our approved list is still available and still wants to move here! Now it’s a matter of paperwork and passing his physical.

    And our new work truck chassis has been sent to the modification company and is due there next week. About two months there being built, then our motor vehicle folks get it for the modifications we do in house. We should have it by the end of the year!

      1. Free Meerkats*

        We’re starting from a bare chassis: http://www.fleet.ford.com/fleet-showroom-vdm/?sg=commercial-trucks&yr=2018&md=TransitChassis&brand=Ford . With the options we wanted, it had to be built for us; there wasn’t one available on any dealer’s lot in the country.

        The modification center is installing a standing height work body on the back: https://www.knapheide.com/kuv-bodies/kuv-p3 . Once again, optioned how we want it; so they had to order it built for us. Then the whole thing gets painted the specific color we need.

        Once it gets in house, they install the radios, lights, specialized wiring for our field equipment, decals, and the like.

        This has moved with typical speed for this type of vehicle purchase, it all started when the old one’s engine went away and it wasn’t economical to repair end of last year. The actual speccing started in February. Getting a new fire truck usually takes about 18-24 months.

  39. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    Can any other hiring managers or recruiters commiserate with me on those really difficult to decline candidates? The ones who you can tell are trying really hard and put a lot of work into the interview but who just really truly do not have the skills to be successful? The ones you want to succeed, but you just cannot put them in front of your hiring manager or your customer or your clients because they would get eaten alive? I really feel that my company does a good job of hiring for attitude and training for skill wherever we can. We want people who fit our values, and we’ll teach you the rest. But for a lot of roles we do need people who are simply confident and personable and can carry on a conversation.

    I had one of those yesterday, and I’m still feeling bad about it. This candidate clearly did a lot of homework on what my company does and what we’ve accomplished in the last couple of years, and he is currently in a dead-end job with not a lot of transferable skills (not a ding, but that pulls at my heart strings.) But he was just so difficult to talk to, he couldn’t engage in a genuine conversation with me and instead was just reciting his prepared answers to my standard questions, and then really struggled to come up with answers for my less common behavioral questions. I really felt for him, because I really wanted him to do well.

    1. Mazzy*

      Yes! I recently interviewed one who must have had some sort of successes at his past jobs, but struggled to think of any and then gave me some superficial ones such as “updated documentation” and “provided information for website” which are work but way below the accomplishment level we need for the position. It was awkward as I was trying to pull out more accomplishments without flat-out saying “you were at that job for five years and that’s all you can come up with?”

    2. Saviour Self*

      It is definitely hard to notify those applicants but you have to do it. For those that are just regurgitating prepared answers, I try to gauge if it is just a case of nerves and do a few things to help them relax.

      When letting them know they aren’t moving onto the next stage, I try to be as kind but direct as possible and will often refer them to some recruiters with whom I’ve successfully worked in the past.

    3. Specialk9*

      If you’re having heart strings, then do him the kindness – and it is kind – of being clear that he’s not getting the job, but you were impressed by these things about him, and so wanted to give him feedback on things to work on in future interviews. In this case, something like Toastmasters for speaking polish, practicing interview questions with a friend or career coach, and acquiring these 3 transferrable skills.

      I can pretty much guarantee nobody has ever explained these things to him, and if he’s that eager-beaver, he’ll work through a concrete plan.

  40. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I’m attending my first professional conference in a few weeks. Any suggestions or tips for preparation? Things I should be aware of or watch out for?

    It’s a regional thing for my company.

    1. CM*

      Look at the agenda ahead of time. If there are choices, talk to your manager about which sessions you should attend. See if you’re expected to bring anything back or report back to the team. Sometimes a list of attendees is published — you could see who else will be there and if there’s anyone you should make an effort to meet.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        My boss already selected my breakout sessions during the registration, but I will definitely ask about anything specific I should be listening for/taking notes on.

        Thanks!

    2. Notthemomma*

      Comfy shoes! Bring extra business cards and jot down a description or something to jog your memory for those you receive. Don’t sit in the back- sound is almost always horrid. Take notes- you won’t remember all the talking points.
      If you are not an outgoing person by nature, screw up all your inner awesomeness and go up to someone between each session and introduce yourself; make a bingo game if it if you must (collect one man with green tie, one woman with silver earrings, etc).
      plaster a smile on your face so you look approachable for other newbies, and enjoy it!

      1. Liz2*

        Second the shoes, streamline your carry stuff to the bare essentials, stay hydrated and sleep your feet raised.

      2. Specialk9*

        Exactly these! Also water bottle and drink regularly, and layers for temperature differences.

        For me, the quiet to sociable transition requires some prep – inner coaching, checking my LinkedIn so I don’t forget names, some dread, identifying goals for what I want out of it, and finally excitement.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Put your mobile phone on silent, but don’t turn it off. You might want to take photos of slides or posters.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Dress in layers. Doesn’t matter where it is, one room will be a meat locker and the next one will be an oven.

      Evenings will likely include alcohol. Eat something first.

      1. Specialk9*

        Personally, I don’t drink at all around people on whom I’m making a first impression. Around co-workers who know me well, 1 drink maximum.

        Others may have different rules, but I’ve heard too many drunk work Christmas party horror stories to be willing to risk it.

    5. SQL Coder Cat*

      Ask how people usually dress, then wear something comfortable just a shade nicer than that. You don’t want to be the person in jeans and a t-shirt when everyone else is an suit (or vice versa)! Make sure you have a comfortable messenger bag or professional looking backpack for carrying your stuff- you do not want to use a briefcase and have to have it in your hand all day! Bring extra business cards and when trading cards, write a reminder of the person on the back. If it’s a relationship you want to cultivate for the future, drop a quick email the week you get back to the office mentioning how nice it was to meet them and chat about .

      1. Specialk9*

        I usually just bring an interview appropriate folio (?) – one of those leather like folders with a note pad, pen holder, business card flap, and pocket for papers. In my purse I carry extra pens and my business card case.

    6. Rick Tq*

      These are co-workers so you want to make a good first impression. This is a chance to network outside your local office, make the most of it!

      My personal rule is 1 beer during a reception then either sprite or tonic water with a twist so I don’t have more than a slight buzz, absolutely never enough to affect speech or walking.

      As others have said, carry lots of business cards.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh yeah! One thing related to networking. Don’t try to impress people by how clever or interesting you are – instead focus on learning about them and figuring out what *their* interesting things are.

        Though do practice a brief synopsis of who you are – field, company, what drew you or direction you’re interested in. Use the general language terms – ‘database manager’ instead of ‘knowledge warehouse automator’ or ‘specialist III’ or whatever your company uses – and try to feed them some hooks for conversation follow-up.

        Then follow up by connecting on LinkedIn.

  41. Lizcat*

    I am a freelance editor and my biggest client, a publisher is going from publishing 10 books a week to publishing 2. :( Does anyone have advice on how I can attract more clients? I already: 1. Put feelers out in writer’s groups; 2. Told my steady clients that I’m available for more work; 3. Asked current clients to pass my information along my information; 4. Offered a 10% referral discount.

    Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! (My FB business page is linked in my user name.)

    2. Her Grace*

      If you specialise in any particular genres, might be worth hitting up related professional organisations, i.e. RWA or SFWA, etc.

    3. Specialk9*

      Can you get a table at a convention that is about books, or would have a fair number of writers? Or, if that’s prohibitively expensive, look at being on a panel for writer’s workshops, or teach mini courses on something specific you know about.

      For clients, there are freelance websites. You could also hit up the big publishing companies.

  42. Incognito*

    A recruiter gave me an excellent piece of advice which is to ask in the interview if there is any reason why you wouldn’t be a good fit for the position and then listen. This way you can address any unspoken concerns the interviewer/HS has.

    I wish I had this advice for another interview I had right before I was given that advice. I just lost out on a job on account of the HM’s unvoiced questions/concerns. She just made assumptions about my skills, experience, and need for training rather than speaking up at any point in either the phone or in-person conversations. While I feel like a lot of that is on her, I also know now I could have potentially headed that off by being proactive about it. Hopefully, this will benefit me in future interviews.

    In the moment, right now, just after having gotten feedback about that interview, I am ranting in my head. Seriously HMs or anyone doing interviews, if you have concerns related to someone’s experience and skill to do the job, you need to speak up, especially when it’s at the final stage. What is most frustrating about this experience is that the HM had my resume, had a phone conversation, and we even had some related discussion on a topic related to the questions she did not ask, and not once did she bring up any of those concerns. IMHO, they could have been put to bed in the phone interview without even wasting my time coming on-site and getting excited about the company and position which I really like, and was prepared to accept an offer if it came.

    So with that, my job search continues! Have a great Labor Day weekend all.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I understand your frustration, but as a hiring manager, I don’t think I would ever honestly answer that question in the moment.

      1. Incognito*

        I’m curious, why not? Would you risk your concerns/assumptions being wrong in lose out on an otherwise solid candidate that hit all the other sweet spots?

        1. Uncivil Engineer*

          If the candidate was that close to being a solid candidate and hit all the other sweet spots, I’d ask a more direct follow up question myself rather than wait for the candidate to ask a question like this.

        2. Trout 'Waver*

          I feel the same way as Not Today Satan. It’s because the candidate is going to respond to your answer by trying to sell you on why you’re wrong about them.

          1. Incognito*

            Maybe I’m just weirdly transparent and don’t believe in selling people something I don’t have to give them, but do a lot of candidates do this?

            Then again, someone also told me they’ve had candidates who had left jobs but did not update their resume and then pretended as if they still worked for the most recent employer, only to have the fib caught at the next stage or people lying about what they made previously. I don’t understand why people do this, when they’re just going to get caught. In my field they will get caught. Everyone does previously employment verification as part of the background check.

            In this case, a couple of well thought out skills-based questions would have put the question to rest as either confirming or disproving the assumption. Please tell me most HM are more like you folks.

            Maybe if I have to pull things out of an HM like this, it’s a bullet best dodged. When you’re looking for something that specific, you need to know to ask about it, preferably before you waste everyone’s time in a half day on-site interview process involving 8 other people.

            1. esra*

              I haven’t had a lot of candidates do it, but I’m also not a fan when it gets pulled out. I feel like they’re trying to put me on the spot/pressure me to make an immediate decision. If I have any issues or follow-up questions, I’ll ask them.

        3. Not Today Satan*

          Usually by the time it’s an in person interview, I have a pretty solid understanding of their background, so turn-offs I encounter in an interview might be “you were late,” “you’re not articulate at all,” etc. and I’m just not going there. Conversely, if the candidate is a contender, I’ll need time to process and to compare them with the other candidates.

          But mostly because I wouldn’t want the conversation turned into a sales pitch/debate.

          1. Incognito*

            That’s what frustrated me about this one. I went through the entire process, and it just never came up. It was a pretty basic direct conversation about skills and need for training that the HM could have addressed very early on during the phone interview or during the in-person interview. I’m a little perplexed it wasn’t addressed at some point.

            “I see your recent experience is dark chocolate tea pot design. Some of the work we do uses milk chocolate…(insert questions about experience with milk chocolate, transferable skills, if we hired you how much training and support would you need to work with milk chocolate, etc.) – I feel like this shouldn’t have been rocket surgery, especially when it was only one aspect of the job.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              That guy was terrible at hiring. And him being bad at hiring cost you that particular job. It sucks that it went down that way.

              I get that you’re frustrated you didn’t get that particular job. And I get that you want to change your behavior so that it doesn’t happen again. But don’t change it in a way that puts off people who are better at hiring than that guy.

      2. Uncivil Engineer*

        I wouldn’t answer it honestly either. I don’t want an interview to turn in to an argument. That being said, I don’t make assumptions about candidates during the interview. I ask direct questions and assess the candidate based on their answers. Plus, the candidate has a chance to add whatever they wanted to say (but couldn’t find an opening for) at the end of the interview. So, if I have asked about experience in a certain area, they answer, and I don’t find their experience to be enough, no amount of rehashing that same experience is going to make me change my mind.

        1. Saviour Self*

          I agree with what Uncivil Engineer has said and Trout ‘Waver below. That really isn’t good advice for the majority of jobs.

          There are so many factors going into the question of whether you want to continue interviewing someone (or not) that you couldn’t answer that question immediately. There are also many factors that have nothing to do with the applicant sitting in front of you so it might be that you’ve told me everything you can I need to know but I still need to know other things and it isn’t up to you to provide those answers.

          I would discourage you from using the question. Instead, use the question Alison has suggested on here many times about what makes someone truly excel in the position as compared to just doing the job.

          1. Incognito*

            This is a case where I asked that question, and the answer I got had no mention of for example, “experience working with milk chocolate”. There was nothing that came out of the answer that alerted me to the unspoken concern or deal-breaker requirement.

            Is there another way to head this off at the pass in future interviews? Or is it not worth it? With this one, I now feel more like the HM should not have even bothered to advance me as far as I was, and maybe there is nothing useful to do in a case where communicating around basic need seems that difficult.

            1. Owl*

              I can’t tell — is it that you DO have experience working with milk chocolate but she assumed you didn’t, or that you DON’T have experience working with milk chocolate, and could have avoided wasting your time at an in-person interview?

              It’s also possible that there were other things that led her to choose another candidate over you, but “not having direct milk chocolate experience” was a very tangible thing she could point to. You might think your skills are easily transferable from dark, but if she has another candidate with similar qualifications but also direct experience, she’s going to go with that candidate. It’s not just you versus the job description, it’s you versus other people and their experience and qualifications.

              1. Incognito*

                No direct experience with straight up plain milk chocolate. I have experience with dark chocolate, white chocolate, and even milk chocolate with nuts. So yes, if no direct plain milk chocolate experience was a deal breaker that could have been cut off at the pass, particularly since there were no other candidates, but the HM knew it from the get-go and never expressed concern over this lack or asked questions about how I might handle a plain milk chocolate design or if it would require additional on the job training.

                In this case the HM also did not ask technical/skills questions that could have spoken to those concerns and also never voiced them or asked about them. It’s not the first time I’ve been passed over for not having some specific direct design experience with a chocolate teapot recipe, but that is part of the discussions; so the feedback doesn’t come out of left field.

      3. LAI*

        Agreed, I would not answer than question in most situations, and honestly, I’d probably be bit turned off by the asking because I’d feel put on the spot. I think a better way to frame it would be something like “do you have any concerns that I haven’t addressed already?” That keeps the focus on professional background and abilities. The way your question is phrased “is there any reason why I wouldn’t be a good fit?” – I’d probably be sitting there thinking something like, “yeah you talk way too much” or “your answers are too rambly and I can’t understand what you really mean to say” or “you just don’t seem very smart”. But I’m never going to say that to any candidate.

        1. Incognito*

          Oh but your unspoken answers made me laugh, because I had this great visual of that and a weird sense of humor.

          I will make a not of that rephrasing. It does feel less awkward. Thanks!

    2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I would like to add the caveat to this advice – please ask it of the hiring manager, and not of the HR recruiter. I get this question occasionally and it’s just outside the scope of what I’m doing in the initial screening process. I don’t even discuss previous experience in my initial screening – and I explain that to candidates at the beginning of every conversation, so it ends up feeling like the candidate is just asking because someone told them it was a good question to ask rather than understanding the purpose of asking that sort of question.

      1. Incognito*

        Good point! I forgot to mention that. This is a question that you want to ask the HM or whoever it is that is going to make the decision.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      That’s not good advice unless you’re going to sales. That question is a very common sales tactic. It comes off as way too high pressure in most settings, including your average interview.

      Given that your recruiter is in the sales profession, they may be biased towards sales techniques.

    4. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

      I ask a similar question in interviews, but I think my wording is different enough to not annoy people. The way I phrase it is “Is there anything you’d like me to address about my candidacy that I haven’t already?’ With that phrasing, they have an easy out to just say no if they don’t want to get into it, but if they have some sort of nagging concern about an area of my experience it’s a good opening to discuss.

  43. Mockingjay*

    End of the Fiscal Year crunch time! Anyone else snowed under? Grandboss approved OT because we have spend the funds. Ah, the life and times of contract work!

    4. KatieKate*

      Just had the interview… not sure how it went. I don’t think I have the experience they are looking for, but who knows.

  45. Weight Loss Contest Drama Update*

    A week or two ago I posted about being chair of the fun committee at work and the committee trying to have a weight loss contest. Long story short, after I said no the HR director called for a vote on the weight loss contest and I resigned (from the committee, not my job). I had been doing a LOT for the committee (asking for money from the big boss, actually running every project because no one I delegated anything to ever actually did anything). I didn’t want to be a dictator but not being able to veto something I thought was truly harmful and inappropriate was the last straw.

    Anyway, I’m very relieved to be out of that mess now.

    2. Red 5*

      I missed the original post but as somebody who is currently getting medical intervention for a weight problem, thanks for standing up against this, even if it didn’t have the right outcome. You did the right thing. I hope that I have somebody like you in my corner at my job if a similar situation comes up.

    3. Excel Slayer*

      Dear sweet Cthulhu, I missed this.

      I thank you for standing up to it though, even if it wasn’t as effective as you hoped. (Maybe now you’re gone no one will be able to organise it though?)

    5. Sadsack*

      I recall your original post and I’m interested in more details! What was the vote? How did your leaving the committee go over? I am curious! I think you did the right thing.

    6. esra*

      What the hizz. Honestly I have no idea why anyone would ever think a weight loss contest is a good idea, let alone a good idea at work. It’s way too skewed, not everyone needs to lose weight, not everyone should lose weight, and I really don’t want my work judging my weight.

      How’d they take your resignation??

  46. Heaven*

    The store I work at had some new jewellery delivered today, including a choker chain with a ring in the centre.

    All I could think of was that letter about an employee wanting her colleagues to acknowledge her boyfriend was her ‘master’ and the ensuing debate over whether or not it was inappropriate to wear a necklace to work that vaguely resembled a collar because it looked just like some of the examples linked.

    For what it’s worth, I didn’t think it looked like a collar until I remembered that letter and then I couldn’t see it as anything else.

  47. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So my city just had a sick/safe time ordinance into effect in July- earn one paid hour for every 30 regardless of your work. But if you are working for different employers, like as a contractor as I am, you can’t carry your time over to the other place. My work here is going to end soon and I haven’t had a day off in about six months.

    So do I look like I’m taking advantage if I use the earned time before switching to a new contract? I have literally never missed work for sickness in seven years.

    And what is “sick?” I have to see a doctor next week and I kind of want to work until 10 am or so, go to 10:30 appointment, then go home and nap or work out. I’m so tired.

    1. ASJ*

      I say take it as a sick day. I have taken sick days before when I am too tired to function – I don’t even necessarily consider them mental health days, more “I’d be a half-asleep bump on a log if I went into work” days. Plus, you’re going to the doctor which is always a valid reason to use sick time.

    2. Joshua*

      Have you checked the wording of the ordinance? If the ordinance says something vague like the sick leave can be used for medical care, then that will cover doctor visits. Although ethically I see nothing wrong with taking the day off even if it didn’t say that and you had to be “sick.” If you’re going to the doctor, you are “sick.” Even if it’s sick of getting sick and so you’re at a wellness visit.

      If you went 6 months without a sick day and you use one at the end, even if it were to sleep and binge watch tv, you should not feel bad at all.

    3. Natalie*

      IIRC we are in the same city, and the sick time can be used for scheduled medical appointments per the ordinance.

      1. LA HR*

        In Los Angeles:
        “An Employer shall provide paid sick leave upon the oral or written request of an
        Employee for themselves or a family member, as defined by California Labor Code
        §§ 246.5(a) and 245.5(c), or for any individual related by blood or affinity whose
        close association with the Employee is the equivalent of a family relationship. Paid
        sick leave may be used for the purposes of preventive care or diagnosis, care, or
        treatment of an existing health condition, or for specified purposes of a victim of
        domestic violence, sexual assault, or stalking.”

        I think most laws will be similar (i.e., you may use it for appointments); you can Google your city’s ordinance if you have any question about that.

        Further, as others have noted, whether you are really at a doctor’s appointment or just taking a “mental health” day, if you have NEVER taken a sick day, no one should hassle you about that. (Though, based on some of the stories on this blog, that may be too optimistic!)

  48. Murphy*

    Vacation vs sick days: I moved a month ago and unpacking with an infant is impossible, so I took off a vacation day so that I could unpack while she was at daycare. The day before that, she got sick and had to stay home from daycare for 2 days. That second day, I was already off on vacation, but what I ended up using it for (i.e. I did no unpacking) qualifies as sick time. Can I change the type of leave I took, or should I leave it?

    1. The IT Manager*

      I would change it.

      I don’t have kids, but I have done it for myself. I was out sick and it ran into scheduled vacation days. I contacted my supervisor and asked to change it because I did not spend my vacation as I had planned.

    2. LCL*

      Totally depends on your office culture. Here, that would be fine and I have changed people’s scheduled leave for that reason-vac day morphed into sick day.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      There might be a policy. At my employer, I don’t think this would be allowed. If you get sick while you’re on vacation, you can’t take one of your days as sick leave after the fact, and I think this is the same principle.

      1. Joe X*

        That’s my experience as well. If you get sick on a scheduled vacation day, you don’t get to take a sick day.

  49. not so super-visor*

    I have “The Final Countdown” stuck in my head… pretty sure that it’s because I’m counting down to 5:30 PM when I can submit payroll and leave for the long weekend. Anyone else have a song stuck in their head?

    2. Amber Rose*

      The theme song from Friends. “Your job’s a joke, you’re broke, your love life’s DOA.”

      Life has been hard lately.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Oh, that was on the radio this morning, along with Teenage Dirtbag by Wheatus (?) which I haven’t heard for ages.

    4. periwinkle*

      Our organization is big on risk. We are obsessed with it. We refer to it as RIO – risk, issues, and opportunities. We talk about RIO all the time. And it always starts my brain pushing “Play” on the tape deck…

      Her name is Rio and she dances on the sand
      Just like that river twisting through the dusty land
      And when she shines, she really shows you all she can
      Oh Rio, Rio, dance across the Rio Grande

    5. Emi.*

      Despacito! And I don’t actually know Spanish, so it’s the words I hear in my head are all Pasito, pasito / suave suavecito / something something something / poquito, poquito.

    6. Anonymous for Stress Relief*

      Unfortunately, right now I practically have Frank Turner’s “I Am Disappeared” on loop in the office:

      And on the worst days
      When it feels like life weighs ten thousand tons
      I sleep with my passport
      One eye on the back door
      So I can always run
      I can get up, shower, and in half an hour I’ll be gone

      My job is going through some upheavals right now and it will probably be a year before we settle into a new normal. My job is not at risk but some days I almost wish it was because of the stress. I really love the place I work and am trying to ride it through but it is really hard sometimes.

    7. Wee Sleekit*

      Yep! the “I still was a blind man” line from Carry on my Wayward Son.
      Before that it was the “from my head down to my toes” line from Genesis’ “That’s all”
      I can never get a whole song… it’s always the one line, like a broken record.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I now have this song in my head–but thank you. We were talking in chat about the bus in Santa Cruz, and an old local TV ad I used to see for the bus line popped into my head. It went, “Ride the bus….doot doo doo doot doo doo….ride the bus with us!” I hated it so much and my SC folks and I would always hold our heads and groan aloud whenever it played on the TV. Your song knocked it out!

    9. Small but Fierce*

      We play “The Final Countdown” at 4 PM every Friday. For Arrested Development fans: I just think of Gob and his “illusions.”

    10. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      My boss found a fox skull on his property last night and brought it in. So all day I’ve had What Does the Fox Say? by Ylvis stuck in my head. Yeah, it’s been a long day.

  50. T3k*

    Well, finally got the second phone interview done, so now all I can do is wait and see. I think I did pretty well though I stumbled over a few words and, like everything, starting to second guess myself. Just hope it’ll be good news when I hear from the recruiter.

  51. Snark*

    Yesterday I took a….well, not a mental health day, precisely, but a Get Loose Ends Tied Up day. Fix haircut, plan meals, go grocery shopping, hike with cute dog, fix drain pipe, catch up on emails, buy new work shoes, et cetera. It was insanely productive and the pressure of my looming, niggling to-do list is greatly reduced. Highly recommend it.

    1. Another bureaucrat*

      I do this about once a year and it’s so helpful! Highly recommend when the to-do list gets overwhelming.

    2. YarnOwl*

      I do this once every few months and it is the BEST. I usually also take myself out to lunch somewhere fun that I don’t get to go to often.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Those days are so important for my well-being. I love them! Glad your day was productive and hopefully relaxing too. :)

  52. Brenda*

    Stuck in a really thorny position at work that I’d love people’s advice on!

    I’ve been at my job for a year and a half now, but have been paid as a freelancer for the whole time so I’m responsible for my own insurance and have an extra tax burden. It’s been very stressful for me, but other than that I enjoy my job and have a solid relationship with my boss, so I was willing to put up with for a while since I was told by my boss and higher ups that getting converted to staff would only take a few months. At this point though the process seems to be stalled and no one can give me any sort of timeline, so I think it’s for the best if I find an actual staff role somewhere else. (What makes this extra frustrating as that I do work a set schedule 9-5 schedule here on office equipment and am treated like a FT staff member, so this isn’t a traditional freelance job. I’m just a staffer with no benefits).

    I’ve already been on a few interviews and seem to be on track to hopefully get an offer in the near future. Here’s the tricky part: My boss is considering letting my other coworker in our department go soon and wants my opinion on when to do it. Let’s call this coworker Clara. Clara has been consistently awful at her work for a year, so I do think firing her is the right move. But it’s just me and her overseeing our department, and I worry that if Clara is fired now and I leave in 1-2 months, it will put my boss in a bad position and she’d resent me for leaving, possibly burning a bridge. Since we do have a good relationship I planned on telling her yesterday that I was concerned about this possibility and letting her know that I may not be able to stay long term if I don’t get staffed up soon, so she can make her decision about Clara with all of the facts. But when I even asked if there were any updates about staffing, she became kind of annoyed at me and kept telling me there was nothing that could be done and other people were having the same issue. I didn’t even push it that hard but she seemed insulted and accused me of blaming her, eventually using Hurricane Harvey to suggest that maybe other people had it worse than me. I kind of blinked at that and didn’t respond, because I found it so offensive. After her confrontational reaction I didn’t really feel comfortable suggesting that I may need to start a job search. She’s usually very gracious and supportive so I was very taken aback by the whole conversation.

    Here’s my question: is there anything else you all think I should do here? I’ve done a lot of good work at this company and hate to think that I may not be able to count on a good reference from my boss in the future, since I worry she won’t take kindly to me leaving in under 2 years. But the stress of not having a staff position when I am, for all intents and purposes, a full time worker here is creating too many issues for me, financially and mentally, and I really think I can’t afford to stay here as a freelancer anymore. I thought I’d be able to be transparent about this with my manager, but now I feel like I need to continue my job search in secret.

    1. fposte*

      Does it affect your thoughts if we tell you that what your employer is doing is almost certainly illegal, if you’re in the U.S.? This sounds like the classic case of a business illegally treating somebody as an independent contractor.

      1. Brenda*

        I suspected as much :( It’s something our company (a massive corporation) seems to make a habit of doing it, so I’m not sure how they’re getting away with it. I doubt anything would come out of me pointing it out to my boss, since the decision is out of her hands for now, but it definitely strengthens my resolve to get out of here asap.

        1. Ann O.*

          They get away with it because Americans are poorly informed about labor law and probably no one’s sued them yet.

      2. Morale question*

        This jumped out at me too. Brenda you’ve given them chances to convert you. Move on and burn that bridge. Clara’s not your problem and the department won’t be your problem once you move on.

      3. Chriama*

        I was just thinking that. If you’re doing the same job in the same way, I don’t see how one day you’re a contractor and the next day you’re an employee.

        Anyway, I think you need to operate as if you don’t have a new job, unless and until you do have one. You can try to negotiate a month or so of notice if you think that will help, but the company is obviously not going out of their way to look after your best interests and I don’t think you can do that for them without putting yourself at major risk.

    2. CatCat*

      Your employer seems really sketchy (as fposted mentioned, you may be misclassified, there are a lot of red flags on that here). I’d keep the job search secret, rely on other references, and get out when you can.

    3. Inspector Spacetime*

      It would be very unreasonable for your boss to hold a grudge against you for leaving for a staff position when she knows that that’s what you want, and they’re not giving it to you. Of course, she still could, but would you really want to work for a place that’s cheating you like this?

      I would keep job searching, and keep it secret.

    4. Bea W*

      I think it’s time to move on. I think I’d just be pleasant, quietly look for a job, and be on my way.

    5. MsM*

      Just keep looking quietly. When you do find something (which might wind up taking longer than anticipated), just tell her this came across your radar, and you couldn’t afford to turn down full-time benefits. Either she’ll do the sensible thing and acknowledge she put herself in this bind by not taking your concerns seriously, or she’ll show her true colors, in which case it would be pointless for you to worry about a positive recommendation you can’t count on unless you’re willing to sacrifice your well-being (and probably not even then).

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think that it is best to do most job searches quietly anyway, so this would just be more of that. Nothing out of the ordinary. I would set this part of the concern to one side and not dwell on it.

      You may find it helpful to think about what it is like to be your boss. First we know that she is uncharacteristically self-focused in this conversation. You say ordinarily she is gracious, to me her words here sound like someone who believes they are in a pressure cooker. Start thinking about why she might feel so pressured. I have to wonder if she too is upset that you do not have a staff position. Or perhaps she sees other larger problems in the pipeline, she hopes you get some where safer but she cannot say all this out loud.

      For a moment, consider the idea that everything she said to you, including the Harvey comment are things she is telling herself. Now. Why would she be talking to herself in this manner?

      When people act in a manner that is not their nature, a good way to start to piece things together is to ask, “why is this person acting in an unusual manner?”
      Sometimes we have to review several conversations before the puzzle pieces come together.

  53. Augusta Sugarbean*

    How likely is it that a (small city/rural-ish) county government would have a policy to interview all veterans who apply for a job (assuming they meet the minimum requirements)?

    I’ve been applied for 7 administrative assistant type jobs over the last year and have gotten interviews for 6. I met the minimum job requirements for all and the preferred qualifications for most. I am a veteran, albeit my service was ~20 years ago. There is a field in the online application where candidates write how their service experience qualifies them for the job. I had administrative assistant duties in the military so that part is easy. I did lots of prep, practiced with a person who interviews candidates for his organization, tied in my skills/experience to the job, *all* the AAM techniques. All but one I thought went very well. Still no job offer.

    So is it likely that in the end, I’m just getting interviewed because of some sort of HR/veteran rule/county policy? And is there a polite and professional way to ask about that? I usually deal with the same one or two HR people and I know they must recognize my name by now. I don’t want to aggravate anyone but I also don’t want to waste my time if they are only interviewing me because of my veteran status.

    2. Manders*

      This is pretty weird, actually. I’ve heard of veteran’ preference jobs, where someone’s veteran status weighs heavily in the hiring decision. But I haven’t heard of any policy that requires government recruiters to interview veterans.

      I suppose it’s possible that the HR people you keep meeting also have a preference for veterans and keep choosing your resume because of that, without it being their policy. But it’s frustrating that the keep interviewing and rejecting you without telling you why.

      1. H.C.*

        Agreed that it’s typically it’s just a preference for a candidate’s veteran status, which may be enough to bump you to the interview stage – but ultimately it’s still the hiring manager’s decision to decide which candidate is the most qualified and best fit for the opening (and they may not have input about the candidate’s veteran status.)

    3. LAI*

      It certainly sounds like it could be a preference or a guideline, but I doubt people would waste their time interviewing you if they didn’t think you were a genuine possibility. And it also sounds like you have a lot of relevant experience so maybe that is why you are getting interviews. It sounds like the problem is either during the interview or in reference checking.

    4. kittymommy*

      our county has it. if a vet meets minimum, they get an interview. Automatic. Most municipalities in this area does them.

    6. Troutwaxer*

      Since you’re getting to know the HR people, maybe you can make them part of your network? Something like “can you give me a hint about this Hiring Manager,” or “is there something coming up in the next few months that I could get come experience/training on?” Or whatever works for a particular issue.

  54. Morale question*

    My company is listening to feedback from team members at our corporate office and planning quarterly events. We had one at the beginning of summer with a food truck and prizes. It was a lot of fun but one of the pieces of feedback we got about that was from hourly employees who wished that the event was paid time, rather than being restricted to just their lunch hour or having to work late to offset their time at the event.
    We have another event coming up (free lunch and lawn games), and I’m trying to communicate up the chain that it should be paid time but have kind of gotten pushback – mostly from salaried people in the office. The office is split between hourly and salaried team members. It feels off to me to invite the whole office to an event that’s supposed to boost morale and encourage them to stay and have fun and food but then limit hourly workers to either their lunch hour, skip, or work late.

    I couldn’t find anything from Alison on this – what do you all think?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m surprised it’s salaried people who are pushing back, and not finance people. What’s their issue?

      1. Morale question*

        I think it’s more that she’s just clueless how it affects hourly people. Salaried privilege and all that. She doesn’t think it should be paid time. She doesn’t get how that undermines “boosting morale.”

            1. Bea W*

              It’s easy to forget about this when you’re not hourly. I suspect a lot of the push back is due to cluelessness. “Salaried privilege” is a good way to describe it. I work in an office with a mix of salaried and hourly workers, and do have to be occasionally reminded or remind myself mid-sentence.

            2. caligirl*

              That’s too bad! If management feels that way, there isn’t a whole lot you can do since you have already brought it up. If they ask “why was turnout so low?” then you can answer honestly that hourly staff are being penalized for attending so they simply don’t attend! Way back in the olden days, I was a receptionist (this was pre-voicemail) and had to work during holiday parties, monthly birthday parties, employee appreciation parties, etc… it NEVER occurred to them that I was an actual human employee too.

              1. Chaordic One*

                That was terrible!

                Even at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. they would usually hire a temp to act as receptionist and take messages during a company-wide party. Or at the very least they’d arrange to have two or three or four people rotate in the position so that everyone got to attend the party for at least a little while.

    2. Sualah*

      Wow! My company does some events like that and I guess I never even considered taking it unpaid. Like, if it was lunch and then a bags tournament, I would take my regular lunch time and watch the bags tournament but when I fill out my timesheet, only put the lunch time as unpaid. Managers saw us there and no one gave us any grief about how we filled out our timesheets. (Now, if it was an after hours work picnic sort of thing, I would not take that as paid time. But during the office hours? Definitely.)

      1. AllDogsArePuppies*

        Same here. We call it “team building” and its important. Unless its after work, it should be paid.

    3. Friday*

      Seriously, what is up with the salaried people? This sounds like teambuilding/employee rewards events, during work time no less. Of course it should be paid. Everywhere I’ve ever worked, this sort of stuff was paid for hourly people, and when I was a manager, I would’ve fought to make sure my hourlies were paid beyond their lunch hour.

      1. Morale question*

        This was my thinking. It’s bizarre to me to not make it paid time if it’s specifically during work hours to build morale.

      2. Anecdata*

        I can imagine the salaried people’s line of thinking going:

        I still have my regular workload (for the week, for the month, whatever) so I know I’ll end up working late to get it all finished if I attend the event. Therefore, I’m /not/ getting paid to attend event. Therefore, it’s not fair for anyone to get paid to attend event.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Is it mandatory that they go? Then it should definitely be paid time.

      If it was not paid time and I had to make it up later, I just wouldn’t bother going.

      We would have lunches at one place I worked. The lunches ran at most an hour and a half. My normal half hour lunch was deducted and I got paid for the rest of the time. I could live with that, although to me, break time is time out from everything entirely.

  55. Crylo Ren*

    Tips for keeping positive momentum going when you start a new job?

    I just started a new role at a fantastic, exciting company. Seriously, this is Dream Job status – it’s a cool company and it came with a title bump I’ve been chasing after for a few years now. And I came in with an amazing reputation, highly recommended by a former manager – at my first all-hands meeting 2 weeks into the job I was specifically singled out as an amazing hire. I feel like it’s a little unwarranted to be spoken of so warmly because I haven’t really proven myself yet at the role – my role is such that I spend a lot of time quietly building backend stuff and I’m not doing anything flashy or anything that will get seen by a large volume of people.

    And the culture at the company is such that ideas get fiercely debated – not necessarily a bad thing because it encourages us to thoroughly map out our plans, but it’s hard to not feel deflated after your peers basically spend a 1.5 hour meeting poking holes in your strategy and reminding you of all the things you didn’t think of.

    I can’t shake The Fear that I’m not performing to the level of my immediate peers and that’s making me less sure of myself and I worry this will become a cycle. I’m aware this all sounds like imposter syndrome and I’ve read the many (very useful!) articles about it here. But I’m wondering if anyone else here could share some personal stories about encountering and successfully overcoming this feeling. Thanks all!

    1. miyeritari*

      Congratulations at your new job!

      Even if you feel like your work isn’t up to par, don’t denigrate yourself to your coworkers or your manager. It really rubs people the wrong way.

      You could schedule a meeting with your boss to ask if there were any places they thought you could improve, but if your boss tells you in private how great they think you are and how fantastic you’re doing, that’s what actually matters.

      Then when you get the jerk brain saying ‘Wow, you suck at this!’ You have to say to yourself ‘It doesn’t matter what I think, jerk brain. Boss thinks I’m great, and their opinion is the one that matters, so bug off.’

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Ah, that’s a great point about not denigrating myself. I tend to be very self-deprecating and I often don’t realize it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thank you so much for the advice.

    2. Anion*

      Keep in mind that if everyone feels very comfortable picking your ideas apart, it probably means all of their ideas have received the same treatment–i.e. nobody thinks less of you for not having thought of everything; to them it’s part of the job, and they don’t expect anyone to have thought of everything.

      I think talking to your mgr is a great idea, but I also wonder if there’s a colleague who seems especially friendly/open/kind that you could confide in a little bit? Not a major “I feel like an imposter” kind of convo, but if you say something like, “You guys are all so great, I really admire how on-the-ball everyone is,” they might tell you how the learning curve usually goes or how they felt when they started or something, that might make you feel less alone.

      If you’ve been singled out as being good, try to take that at face value, and remember that how others see us is never as “bad” as how we see ourselves, and you’re doing fine.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      To combat The Fear, I would strengthen my resolve not to have the same oversight twice. If someone tells me I forgot X, I would make sure I never forgot X again.
      I think that this is the best you can do for the moment. Decide to let them sharpen you. They point out something you missed add it to your collection of things you watch out for. You will grow into it, you will see patterns in what they find and you will start being able to anticipate what will be said. Once you can anticipate it , you can prevent it.

      I would also find ways to ask what they liked about my work so I could keep those parts.

  56. quicksand*

    How do you handle the “wow, your resume is all over the place” comment at an interview?

    I have a degree in the field I really wanted to go into. I got a job in that field and determined I was very ill-suited for it. I then worked retail for five years. Moved to a new state with my husband, family member got me a job in a completely different field. Really liked that field, and worked in it for five years, but it’s a dying industry that is being outsourced. Moved into a completely different field, which is where I am now. I’m eyeing a new position that pays a lot more that is related to what I do, but still in a different industry. I’ve had people before comment on how all over the place I’ve been, and I’ve never really had a good answer. I don’t know what I want to do when I grow up. I no longer have a “dream job” or even a dream field. At this point, I would just like to pay the bills and not hate my job. Is there a good way to address why I’ve been through so many different fields?

    1. Snark*

      It’s crappy that people make comments like this. It’s not exactly uncommon for spouses to have to chase their spouse’s paycheck, take what they can, and move around. My wife had to teach middle school math for a while when my career was just getting launched. My friend’s spouse was a well-known journalist in Argentina, then married an American guy, moved to the US, and now teaches high school Spanish. It happens.

      I dunno what you say. Something like, “Well, chasing my husband’s paycheck around has made for some interesting career moves,” would technically be correct, but might sound evasive. “Life is what happens to your plans, I guess,” sounds kind of snarky, though I like that. You can’t go with a paragraph of position-by-position justification.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think I’d try to sidestep the comment with something like, “Yes, I am grateful for the breadth of experience I’ve been able to gain over the last X years, and am looking forward to putting those skills to work in this role.”

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Hah I think evasiveness is the only thing that would get me away from the path of snarkiness (no pun on your name intended)! Though I do really like La Revancha’s phrasing down below

        2. tigerlily*

          I don’t really think it’s evasive. It’s not like she was asked a question that she’s sidestepping. With a comment like that (and I don’t think that’s necessarily a crappy or negative comment, either), what response is there other than basically agreeing? “Yes, my experience really is all over the place and it’s given me so many varied experiences that I will be bringing to the table. And you know you want some of that!”

      2. Mephyle*

        Exactly. Having worked in multiple industries, and having had to adjust to new environments a number of times gives you superior experience in versatility and adaptiveness. It’s not evasiveness or empty talk to spin this as your strength; it is a true strength.

    3. Over educated*

      I think if you get to an interview, that’s the point where you have an opportunity to tell a story that ties it together. If you can find common threads between the dying industry, the field you’re in now, and the new industry you want to move into, and talk about how you see the skills and experience in your past fields directly preparing you for the target job, that’s your answer. (It doesn’t have to be true that you’ve been intentionally preparing for this specific job for years and years, you just have make it look linear and logical *in retrospect*).

      I’m not on a linear career path and this approach works for me some of the time. Most of the time, I get beat out by someone with years of experience in exactly the same field doing exactly the same things, and I get why. But occasionally I do get an offer from someone who actually values the breadth of my experience.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My friend did the common threads thing. She worked in banking, teaching and greeting card making. The common thread was she likes handling a paper. Not kidding, she built her story about her enjoyment of paper.

        My common thread is living beings, I pick work that is usually centered around plants, animals or people.

        This common thread thing is not that hard to figure out, if you start thinking about jobs you would never do it becomes apparent what you gravitate toward. I would never repair cars, climb on a roof or drive for a living. There are things we don’t do well with or we just chose not to even try.

    4. CM*

      If there’s some through-line, like certain skills you used at each job or a type of role, you could talk about that. Try to construct a story about how your past experiences have prepared you for the current job. Then you could say that while you’ve been in different industries, you’ve built your skills in X, Y, and Z in each position.

    5. La Revancha*

      This is me as well. I’ve been in 3 different industries since I graduated college in 2010. My answer is always “I am interested in a lot of different fields of work. What’s important to me is that I enjoy the work I do and I work with passionate people who inspire me, regardless of what field it is.” Then you can list reasons why you think you would enjoy the field you’re interviewing for.

      I said that in my interview for my current job and my now boss said “wow! great answer!” haha :)

      1. JulieBulie*

        I had a similarly “interesting” resume for a while. I said “I’ve learned a lot about the value of flexibility and transferable skills.”

        To address the “problem” of looking as though I was unfocused, I said “I was unemployed in a bad job market, and while I was looking for something in my field, I thought it would be good to try my hand at sales.” “A chance to try training fell into my lap, and even if I ended up not liking it, it would give me (a technical writer) a good firsthand look at how end-users interact with an unfamiliar product.”

        Some people will think that’s flaky, I guess. I don’t think having broader experience is ever a bad thing.

      2. Anion*

        That’s basically what my husband said: “I really enjoy being challenged, and learning about different aspects/types of business. I feel like my experiences have made me more rounded as a person, as a manager, and as an employee, and have taught me that (list a couple of things that translate well into what job requires/interviewers seem to be looking for).”

        He’s done very well with that answer in interviews–almost always ends up with an offer.

  57. Over educated*

    In the last week, I’ve gone from “I need to think about my next step but my job is nice for now so I’m in no hurry to leave” to “OK, it’s time to get serious about a new job.” The culprit? An office move. All of the other positives and negatives about my job are still the same, but I HATE our new office space. Nobody particularly likes it, it’s temporary and was chosen to save money, but I feel like over the years I’ve given up a lot of potential for job security, higher salary, retirement planning, etc., to pursue a career that would NOT involve sitting in space like this every day and trying to be quiet rather than collaborative since my team no longer has its own space. It’s shallow but this one thing may have tipped the job from “majority positive to “majority negative.”

    The problem is that I still haven’t decided what direction I want my career to go! I’ve realized that the types of jobs and organizations I’ve worked in so far may not be able to offer what I want out of a job at this point in my life, but I’m not sure I will be able to find all the things I would like to have in one job (intellectual challenge/problem-solving, collaborative environment, good pay and benefits, limited schedule flexibility, either a pleasant workspace or lots of time out of the office, positive impact on society, job security, same city as spouse). I haven’t figured out which factors are most important and what direction could give me the best balance.

    I’ve had three informational interviews and am trying to set up several more, but I guess I should just start applying to stuff at the same time? Thinking about redoing my resume and setting up an online portfolio for new sectors is overwhelming, too. Looking for commiseration or survivor stories – anyone else in this boat, or past this stage and in calmer waters?

    1. anna green*

      Hi! I’m sort of in the same boat but maybe a little further along. About two years ago I decided I needed a change but didn’t know what it should be. So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out, what do I like about my current career, what do I not like, what would an ideal day look like for me, etc. The thing that probably helped me the most is job searching, because I didnt really even know what to look for, so I just read through job listings in my area and tried to see what I was naturally attracted to. I did end up figuring out what I wanted, which is tangentially related to what I was doing, and I got a graduate certificate to help get experience. HOWEVER. I still haven’t found a new job. Ugh. I am getting discouraged and I can feel myself giving up and just thinking about how much easier it would be to stay in my current position because change is hard. I’m trying not to let that happen and I am still searching/applying. I’m not sure if this helped at all :) But I think updating your resume and keeping a look out for jobs/career options is a good first step. Try not to leap too fast so you end up in something you don’t want, but don’t get complacent and give up either.

      1. overeducated*

        I hope you find something soon! Change IS hard, but staying somewhere where you’re unhappy is something you’ll probably regret more in the long run. And at least after the time you’ve spent preparing, where you wind up next will probably be a better fit than you could’ve secured at the beginning of this process.

        That balance between trying to get out and trying not to leap too fast is exactly what I’m concerned with. I don’t want to settle for the first thing that comes along, which is why I’m doing all the informational interviews and trying to get a broader idea of what options are out there, but at the same time I’m feeling like it’s time to get more active in the search even if I’m not sure what I want. I just don’t want to take another, slightly better job that’s closely related to what I do now if it turns out I’d rather pivot into a totally different sector (for the $$ and vacation time, honestly) and have to build some skills on the way.

  58. Tobes*

    Just popping in to say that I got an offer this week for a job that I was recruited for (vs. having been looking an applied). This is the first time in my career I have enough skills to be sought after and the experience has been so flattering. It’s been interesting to see how accommodating a company can be when they want someone. I’m leaning towards taking the offer even though I’d feel terrible about leaving my current team in a bit of a lurch.

    Also, this is the 3rd (Fortune 500) company that’s given me an offer over the years without doing any sort of official reference check. That’s weird, right?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Congrats! That’s an awesome feeling. FWIW none of my Fortune 500 employers have ever called my references either.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      My husband works in strategy management (Fortune 500s and international companies) and has never had a reference checked. It’s so strange to me. I work in nonprofits and have had three references called every time I changed jobs.

  59. The Scientist*

    Does anyone have any relocating advice? I’ve received an offer from a company I really want to work for and they offer a great relocation benefits package, but the whole thing seems relatively overwhelming. I realize this may stray a little bit beyond “work”, but I’m wondering things like:

    1) Did you take a trip to find housing before moving there, find something remotely (via the internet or some other listing), or did you use the settling in period to find a house while living in a hotel?

    2) How long did you give yourself for relocating? Was the entire process from accepting the offer to starting 2 weeks, a month or more?

    3) Were there any holes in the relocation benefits package that you received that you didn’t think about before going?

    Any other general tips would be appreciated! I’ve moved before, but not this far or for a job with relocation benefits.

    1. ASJ*

      I think it depends a lot on how far you’re moving (internationally, across the country, five hours away?). My BIL and sister had to move recently for work. They did look over some places online, but I would caution that pictures can be extremely deceiving. I think you’re better off to stay in a hotel when you first arrive and then find a place.

      1. The Scientist*

        You’re right, the distance definitely matters – it’s over 2000 miles, so I’d consider it a cross-country move. And we’ve been thinking the hotel makes the most sense – thanks for the plug for that option!

    2. Snark*

      I have relocated three times for work in the past five years. Answering this question, clearly, is what I put on pants this morning to do.

      1) We generally have found apartments/houses remotely, though when we moved to San Antonio, we’d been there once before to meet with my bosses, and we’d taken a look around. It worked great the latest time, because we ended up in a lovely neighborhood and ended up buying a home there a few months later. But in SA, I ended up in a really boring section of town that was 25 minutes from everything. It’s nice to have more than just MLS listings to go off.

      2) I relocated on two weeks’ notice the first time, which I DO NOT recommend under any circumstances because it was insane. A month is busy but doable.

      3) I just had a budget, basically, and that worked nicely. Make sure they’ll reimburse for mileage at the GSA relocation rate (which is less than the general business travel mileage rate of $0.54, but still worth it) and that they’ll cover hotels, airfares, packing and loading labor, and moving supplies like boxes, tape, etc.

      Other tips? ABF U-Pack. They drop off a shorty freight trailer in front of your house, you pack it up, you install a bulkhead and lock it with your lock, they charge you by the linear foot and drive it to your destination. It arrived in four days, was price-competitive with U-Haul, and I could just drive my comfortable car instead of wrestling a dodgily-maintained 15 year old Ford E-series.

        1. The Scientist*

          Thank you for sharing your experience! Where I currently live is not an area people relocate to, so I’ve had little in the way of other people’s guidance. Especially in regards to timeline, your comments were extremely helpful!

          1. Snark*

            Yeah, plan on around a month. You need to pack, find a new living situation, go scout out the new town if you can, say goodbyes, buy supplies, rent a truck….any less than three weeks is bonkers.

    3. Overeducated*

      I relocated for my current job on a few months notice. The package was enough to pay for the physical cost of moving stuff domestically but not for moving early or staying in hotels. I found housing remotely, but made a trip down at semi-personal expense (it was combined with a work trip for my spouse) to visit potential day cares in person since that was not something I was willing to leave to internet reviews. The major “hole” for me was that since I had to move so close to my start date, it was tough to deal with stuff like movers wanting a multi day window or really doing ANY of the logistical stuff Alison has talked about with moving, home repair and improvements, etc. that occurred during the day. Negotiating some buffer time before starting or schedule flexibility would have made a big difference.

      I’d do it that way again for renting, but if I were trying to buy a house and had the resources to stay in a hotel I might.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      My last relocation was 27 years ago, so I can’t offer much on finding housing online. We packed up, had the moving company come in and load our stuff, and drove here the next day with the minimum to live for a week or so (~800 miles). Got a hotel and started looking for an apartment that we could handle for a 6 month lease. Found a place and the moving truck showed up a few days later. Doing it again, I’d go Snark’s route with the U-Pack.

      I had four or five weeks between giving my two week notice and starting the new job, so we weren’t in any real pressure to get completely settled before starting work at the new job. 2000 miles is at least a four day drive for most people.

      Since I work in local government, there was no relocation package. So no help there, either.

      1. LadyKelvin*

        We’ve relocated 4 (maybe 5?) times in the last 8 years…life as an academic. I’ve actually found that hiring movers is often cheaper or the same price as a U-pack, and I don’t have to carry all my own crap. I’ve done things several ways: found an apartment online, rented sight unseen and lived there for a year until I figured out where I wanted to live. I’ve gone for a weekend to look for places a month before I moved and rented one then, and my most recent move I stayed in an airbnb for 2 weeks and spent the week before I started working finding an apartment. I would definitely talk to your company about the relocation package and what rules you need to abide by before you do anything though. My husbands’ company paid for everything, it was through their company and he didn’t have a say in the moving company etc. It was very easy and we just watched them back, load the truck, and then drop it off in our new place. Mine was more complicated, as I just got a flat amount of money and had to find all my own movers, etc. I had to provide three quotes and show that I picked the cheapest one, etc and have lots of documentation in order to get reimbursed. Also, for one of my relocations I moved my car on the Autotrain on the east coast, for another I had it shipped (we moved to Hawaii and had no choice) and for another I drove it to my new place. I recommend the second way, so much less stressful, and not much less expensive.

        1. Snark*

          “I’ve actually found that hiring movers is often cheaper or the same price as a U-pack, and I don’t have to carry all my own crap.”

          Are we talking about the same thing? Because I couldn’t get movers for an interstate move to quote me anything lower than $5000 for three rooms, U-Pack was $2200 and I think I spent like $400 on packers and loaders, and U-Haul would have been $2100. It wasn’t even close. And the entire point of the U-Pack is you don’t have to carry your crap, they do the driving for you.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Bookmarking this thread for future reference, just in case. The last time I moved to California, I just packed a couple of suitcases and crashed on someone’s couch–found a job after I got there. I can’t do that this time.

    6. TL -*

      Are you in industry/pharmacy? A bunch of my old coworkers got a relocation deal: moving paid for (movers and shipping with the company’s preferred movers), a house hunting visit or two paid for, transit to new place paid for – airplane with car shipped or you could drive, and if your house didn’t sell in a specified time frame, they would buy it for a price set beforehand and put it on the market and sell it.

  60. AnnaleighUK*

    Finally we’ve hired a replacement for my fired co-worker. An actually competent building inspector who has decided to relocate to our area. Praise be. We were getting insanely frustrated by the poor CV’s we were getting. One less thing to worry about! And she’s someone with industry experience who isn’t just out of university and knows how an office operates. I’m looking forward to her start date in a month!

  61. Anonymeow*

    I posted in an open thread a few months ago about my toxic work environment, and luckily my grandboss took note and has been working slowly to resolve the situation.

    I complained to her about the rampant casual sexism during a check-in recently (boss and student assistants using the word ‘girls’ to refer to women, making comments about how ‘girls can’t lift’ and how ‘I should hire more guys’… when he gets a lot of applicants and hires 80% young women, etc.), and she’s asked me to start calling it out when I see it — I don’t really have an issue doing it with my boss, but I’m fairly young and the language issue is also pervasive among the student assistants I supervise as well.

    I used to work in this lab as a student so half of the student assistants still sort of see me as a peer, which makes me feel weird calling them out on their language, especially when most of them don’t even refer to themselves as women!

    I know there have been a lot of advice on this already, but any advice on how to approach this with younger people (women especially) would be highly appreciated :) Thank you!

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      I would focus on the “professional setting” angle, instead of the feminist one, as much as I agree with the feminism, of course. I would say, “Hey, I realize you probably aren’t used to this, but in a professional setting it’s pretty inappropriate to refer to women as girls. I’d appreciate it if you could remember that going forward.”

      Depending on how the conversation goes, you could explain a little bit about the undermining connotations, but I’m pretty sure most people new to the workplace would just accept this from a supervisor without question.

      1. Anonymeow*

        Thank you for the advice! I’ll definitely use that on the new trainees I’m ushering in for this upcoming school year.

        I work in a university teaching lab environment and it’s extremely casual in here, so I feel like I might get some pushback or side-eyes from people who have been working here for several years. Plus, the student workers only really say “girls” in reference to themselves or the students we support, the majority of which are incoming 1st years, so I understand how it may feel weird to suddenly switch over.

        However, I realize people will probably stay in their habits unless I step in and nudge them towards the right direction. It’s good experience for me too, learning how to deal with mildly uncomfortable conversations!

        I just wish “girls” wasn’t the accepted counterpart to “guys” in casual speech, that would make everything so much easier :(

  62. C Average*

    So, through a weird series of coincidences, I have a meeting with the director of my former department at Big Company, where I worked for eight years, mostly happily.

    I left a dead-end job there three years ago to attend to some intense family drama and to write my novel. The novel is well underway (first draft complete, revisions in progress) and the family drama has abated, and I’ve been working a not-quite-full-time retail gig in an area that interests me. I’ve had some interest in returning to Big Company and have even applied for some jobs there, but got nowhere and figured I’m just not a competitive candidate there anymore.

    It honestly never occurred to me to reach out to Director. I know he’s always thought well of me, but he’s a really big dog and I didn’t really think of him as someone in my network. I happened to run into his EA at my retail job, and she told me he still talks about me and would I be interested in coming back to Big Company? Sure, I said, figuring it was just loose talk. But then the next week she texted me with some meeting times, and we actually set up an hour-long meeting.

    I honestly have no idea what to expect on Wednesday. He’s a really busy guy, and I doubt he’d waste an hour of his time on a purely informational interview with anyone, even a former colleague he likes. So I’m wondering, how do I prepare for this? I’m guessing he has something in mind, but I have no idea what, and I’m not even sure which questions to ask.

    I was mostly happy in his department. My final role there wasn’t my favorite (bad manager, not a great fit for me) but in retrospect I can see that my difficulties had as much to do with my personal life as my work life, and I’m in a much better place personally now and would love to get back on track professionally, too.

    tl; dr = How do you prepare for a vaguely defined but probably important meeting with a former colleague about a potential return to your old workplace? What questions should I be asking, and what questions should I be prepared to answer?

    1. CM*

      I would look on the company website to see if you can get a sense of all the things Director is responsible for and what the department is focusing on right now. You could also look at their published job listings to get some clues about what he might be looking for. I would also look at some industry news in case it comes up in conversation that related companies are doing similar projects. And before talking to somebody, I always Google them and look at their LinkedIn profile.

      1. DBG*

        All of this, and definitely check the job listings. Do you think you could contact the Director’s EA and ask her for advice on how to prepare as well? Maybe she can give you a clue as to his intentions.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Come into the meeting knowing what you want to do with your next job, and how that goal overlaps with what is going on at Big Company. If you don’t know the exact answer to that second question, that should give you some good questions for the Director.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “[EA’s name] said you were wondering if I wanted to come back to the company. I am interested in discussing this but I have been away for a few years now and I want to know what is new, what is going on and decide where I would best fit in. So what’s new, what’s going on?”

  63. sick time question*

    Is it noticeably sketchy if your sick days are most commonly on Mondays or Friday? There’s some differing opinion on this in my office so I’m curious to know other people’s thoughts. My thought is, it’s not uncommon to get sick over the weekend. It’s also not uncommon to get sick during the week and be so tired by Friday you just can’t do it. For me, I’ve had 5 sick days this year – two on Monday, one on Friday, and one Monday and Tuesday together (I caught the stomach flu and they did not want me anywhere NEAR the office). Based on what some people have said, I’m now wondering whether this is appearing as a red flag to HR and/or my manager (I don’t have health issues although I do get migraines, and we have unlimited paid sick days just for context – I’m an admin so people do notice when I’m not here, but there is another admin [who abuses sick time but that’s a whole other story]).

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It probably isn’t fair, but yes, it would raise red flags for me. If it happened with some frequency, I would either assume you are too hungover to come in or that you’re faking sick in order to take a long weekend.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        (Historically those I’ve seen this from were very young, very new-to-the-workforce employees, who still had a college mentality about their work-life balance. So this colors my perception quite a bit!)

      2. sick time question*

        I’m 28, so not too new to the workforce, and it’s widely known that I don’t drink. So hopefully those points work in my favor.

    2. yo Anon*

      5 sick days during the year is so minimal, that it seems like just a coincidence. I wouldn’t worry about it at this point.

    3. Murphy*

      I know one company (a financial company) that treats “patterned absenses” like that as a red flag, but I’ve never heard of that anywhere else. I agree with your reasoning about it.

      1. Bea W*

        I worked on place that had a written policy not allowing sick days on Monday and Friday. I thought that was a horrible way of dealing with something that probably a minority of people take advantage of.

    4. Blue Anne*

      I think there’s a Dilbert strip where the manager says “40% of staff absences are on Monday and Friday! We have to stop being taken advantage of like this!”

      I don’t think it’s a red flag in and of itself for a reasonable manager. But there are a lot of unreasonable managers out there.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        Now if a person took three Fridays in a row or routinely only called in on Mondays, I wonder what is up with that and just watch to see if I observe anything else. But I do know of places where you can never call in sick on a Monday or Friday. So you show up sick at work then everyone complains that you are spreading germs. I call this a culture of whiners. You do what is expected and they still whine.

    5. Genny*

      It might make me role my eyes a bit if it happened a lot (5 days in the course of a year is not a lot), but it wouldn’t really be a red flag unless there are other issues with the person’s work. That feeling may be partially because I’ve noticed that for whatever reason, Wednesdays (or the day that is in the middle of the work week if I’m not on a Monday-Friday work week) are really difficult days for me physiologically speaking. No idea why, they just are.

    6. BRR*

      For me it wouldn’t raise any flags on its own. If you’re a good employee and your manager trusts you then it probably isn’t an issue. I can see managers out there though who would read into this even though I completely agree with your thinking regarding getting sick.

    7. Emmie*

      I always feel bad taking sick days on Mon or Fri. I also have a self-imposed rule of never taking a sick day when I have meetings, but that leaves me with no potential sick days.

    8. Bagpuss*

      It would raise red flags if it was happening a lot, but 5 days in the course of a year wouldn’t be a concern.

      We had an employee who had a pattern of being off on Mondays – but I’m talking about 2-3 times a month. (and then they suddenly resigned when we mentioned getting occupational health involved)

    9. Call Me Crazy*

      I have this problem myself….virtually every day I’m off sick seems to be Monday, Friday, a holiday, or the day before/after said holiday. It has never been mentioned to me by anyone at work, tho I’m willing to bet coworkers grumble about it behind my back.
      I feel terrible about this situation, and have told my supervisor as much…I think that usually have a doc’s note (bronchitis, pink eye, etc), or my absence is related to my known migraine issue is enough to keep me from being called out about it.

      Considering I work in heath care and we don’t want this stuff spread around, it’s best that I (or any other coworkers or visitors) stay away until no longer contagious. I must admit, tho, I that I have been there on more than one occasion where it would have been better for me to have stayed home.

  64. Finicky*

    The question this morning from the person whose former website drastically changed directions reminded me of a situation in my own life that I’m really interested to hear this community’s opinion on.

    My alma mater was named, let’s say, Southeastern College*. Several years after I graduated, its name was changed to “University of Southeastern.” I’ve always been appalled and embarrassed by the name change because it sounds blatantly grammatically incorrect to me. I’ve left the old name on my resume, since that’s the name on my diploma.

    I know most of my professors disliked the name change, and at least that makes me feel better. However, I am the ONLY alumni I know who thinks the new name sounds wrong. I think many alumni are so used to hearing the shortened name, “Southeastern,” as a noun that their brains don’t process that it’s an ADJECTIVE and that “University of Southeastern” sounds as silly as “University of Perfect” or “University of Delicious” or “University of Obnoxious”.

    So… what do the writers and editors and grammaticians here think… am I crazy or not? Does “University of [Adjective]” sound wrong to you? And WHY does it sound wrong? Is “[Noun] of [Adjective]” a valid phrase? Does it break some kind of constructional rule?

    Wanting to know for my own satisfaction.

    *Not the real name. But extremely similar.

    1. Amber Rose*

      In the case of University of Southeastern, because it’s the name of an organization, my brain converts Southeastern from an adjective to a proper noun. Which is why it doesn’t sound weird to me.

      But I don’t think it’s wrong that it sounds off to you. It is a bit awkward. I would probably make a note on your resume to avoid confusion too. “Southeastern College (now University of Southeastern)”

      1. Finicky*

        Yeah, I take something like that on and off my resume depending on how likely I think the employer is to care about the quality of my education.

        It just grates on me so badly I’m proud and stubborn about it.

      1. Finicky*

        Because there’s already a Southeastern University. (It’s not really Southeastern. I just didn’t want to make this comment googleable. The name has to do with primary intercardinal directions, though.)
        Apparantly there can be several colleges with the same name, but only one University.

    4. Red 5*

      I agree that the name change would annoy me, but generally there would be almost nothing anybody could really do about it. It doesn’t make any sense grammatically unless Southeastern was also the name of a town or locality that ended up becoming a noun over time.

      That said, I actually went to a school that went through a name change right before I started and I’m friends with some fellow alums who graduated not long before I started. They list Old Name on their resumes and information, I list New Name. Because you DIDN’T go to University of Southeastern, you went to Southeastern College, and that actually does matter. So I’d definitely just keep using the old name for all of your stuff, though you might have to explain that sometimes.

    5. Chaordic One*

      If you really think it might make a difference, you might consider listing it along the lines of:

      B.S. in Teapot Design, Southeastern College (currently know an University of Southeastern).

      These kinds of things happen and it usually isn’t a big deal to most employers, but you might have to explain it to a few.

  65. Blue Anne*

    Can someone suggest words to use to politely disengage from the type of colleague who gives 15 minute answers to yes/no questions?

    In this case, it’s a colleague “Cersei” with much longer tenure than I have, who has been working on one of our bigger clients for almost ten years. Cersei is now working two days a week and so I’m taking over most of the day to day work on the client, while Cersei is still involved and available for questions. I’ve been working on the client for about six months and have a pretty good understanding of most facets of their business now, but certainly not all.

    Whenever I ask Cersei a question, like “Client received a rebate from their spout paint supplier, have you been posting rebates straight to the expense account in the past or is there somewhere else I should put it?” I will get my answer in the middle of fifteen minutes of other, basically unrelated information which might have been useful when I first started, but isn’t now.

    I really like Cersei, and she’s incredibly knowledgeable, and I don’t want to step on her toes. I know that she already thinks I’m impatient – but I also know our boss is happy about the work I’m doing on this client, so I don’t think I’m off base.

    Help. How do I get across that I really just want the information I asked for and not a lot else, without being rude?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think you might have to start interrupting Cersei as soon as you possibly can, as politely as you possibly can. “Cersei, I’m sorry, I appreciate the background, but I just need to know if the rebate was posted.”

    2. Mallory*

      My managing principal is like this- we call his office the black hole (haha). One tactic that has worked with him is saying before asking the question (assuming you do it in person or on the phone)- “Can I take two minutes of your time?” or, “Do you have one minute to answer a quick question? I have to jump on another call/ go into another meeting, but really need an answer to this before proceeding”.

    3. Fabulous*

      OMG these people… I’ve come across a handful of these talkers. Sometimes it helps to just ask the straight question instead of giving background information. For example:

      Instead of: “Client received a rebate from their spout paint supplier, have you been posting rebates straight to the expense account in the past or is there somewhere else I should put it?”

      Ask: “Do rebates get posted directly to the expense account?” or, “Where do you usually post rebates to?”

      1. Construction Safety*

        Yup, the folks who if you ask what time it is, they start with the history of the watch spring.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Oh gawd, I had one of these the other day except she approached me. All she needed to say was: we need someone to help with a presentation to a llama brushing company, who’s best for that? Instead she kept trying to tell me about the entire history of this company and other irrelevant back story. I cut her off and asked what she needed from my team. She started again from scratch. I cut her off again and asked her to please just summarise what she needed.

          And I was quite obviously eating lunch and reading a magazine so surely it’s understandable I’d just need the brief top line summary?!

          Anyway maybe repeatedly reiterating your question is the way to go.

          Sidenote: how come articles on dealing with people who interrupt you never suggest considering whether you in fact are the problem?!

          1. Blue Anne*

            I hate that. I eat at my desk a lot of the time, but I’m still trying to chill. Cersei and one other colleague will come up and want long discussions of commercial activity tax accuracy. I’m just trying to eat some sushi in peace, here.

      2. Blue Anne*

        Unfortunately, I’ve tried that… it actually backfires, because she asks why I’m asking, and then gives me a lecture about all processes related to rebates, purchasing, storing past accounts payable invoices, contra accounts, paint inventory management…

        1. Fabulous*

          Maybe then revise it to ask, “I need to post a rebate for a customer. Does it go in their expense account?” Then she has some background information to the question.

          Sometimes being direct is the only way to head off the 15 minute explanation. She starts going down the historical data, interrupt and say, “Sally, I really need to get back to herding llamas. Where does the rebate get posted?” Rinse and repeat as necessary until you get the answer.

    4. MsM*

      Can you offer to have an extended sit-down with her where you go into all the background and quirks of the system, or anything she’s concerned you haven’t thoroughly absorbed, if right now she can just give you the time-sensitive version? Or if you feel like she’s not going to tell you anything you don’t already know, maybe acknowledge that you know she wants to be sure the client’s taken care of and that none of this institutional knowledge gets lost just because she’s stepping back, but you feel like you’ve got the basics and want to concentrate on filling in the stuff you’re specifically asking about?

    5. LazyGirl*

      My boss can be like this in person, but when I IM him, he gives me a quick answer. So maybe try a different medium?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think any instruction to be brief is going to feel rude. But briefly answering the questions that is asked is a expected in the work world. So to carry on and on without answering the question is actually rude.

      I have used humor with some people. “How old will I be by the time we arrive at the answer of where to post the rebates?’

      Sometimes you can preface your question with your expectation of being brief: “Cohort, just quickly, where do I post the rebates?”
      Cohort: [History of 100 year old company]
      You: “Sorry to interrupt you, I really mean it, I just wanted a quick answer here. So where do I put the rebates?”

      Some people need to be told to focus on the question that is asked. “Coworker, can we just focus on the current question?”
      With some folks I can say, “Cohort you know I luv you and I think the world of you as a professional. Can you just answer the question without the 100 year history?” You may need to reword this depending on the person.

  66. Should I take a job I'm underqualified for?*

    This is just a hypothetical question because I haven’t been offered any job, but here’s the situation:

    I’ve been in my field for only 2+ years, and the job I really want typically requires (1) B.S. in X, Y, Z (which I don’t have), and (2) 5-7 years of experience.

    Recently, I saw an ad for a job that requires (1) B.S. in X, Y, Z, or W (which I do have), and (2) 2+ years of experience. The job responsibilities are similar to the responsibilities in the more typical ads.

    If offered the job, is it a good idea to take the job? My concern is I might struggle way too much, and I don’t want to apply for a less demanding job next and say, at the interview, “I left because I couldn’t handle the workload.” Also, I really do like the company I’m with right now.

    1. CM*

      How are you underqualified when you meet all the qualifications?
      You’re really overthinking this. There’s no evidence this job will be too demanding.

    2. miyeritari*

      It sounds like you meet the qualifications.

      Additionally, your interviewer clearly thinks you’re capable if they offered you the job, and if they’re looking at the same resume you are, so if there are deficiencies, they don’t matter, or your interview knows they can be overcome.

      I’d go for it.

  67. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I work in a blue-state metropolis in non-client-facing legal. There are casual Fridays.

    Am I doing something wrong by wearing a “nevertheless, she persisted” t-shirt? Or what about the pin I have for my bag (that I keep under my desk), saying “supercallousfragileracistsexistnastyPOTUS?” Provided I don’t insult political foes at work, or go around showing it to people.

    1. Blue Anne*

      Ehhhhh. I wouldn’t. I avoid wearing my “A woman’s place is in the house… and senate” t-shirt on casual Fridays.

      But, I’m in a swing state and client-facing.

    2. Manders*

      I would be careful about wearing that shirt at work, not necessarily because you’re likely to offend anybody, but because “casual” in a legal office isn’t always the same as casual in other offices. Look around at your coworkers and make sure they’re also wearing t-shirts with graphics and slogans before you show up in a similar outfit.

      I doubt anyone is going to notice the bag pin, especially if it’s under your desk all day.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thanks, but logos are a thing; some people wear sports team shirts, and I also dress up the (black, with silver logo) shirt by wearing it under a suit jacket.

        I think I’m okay with that bit.

    4. Helpful*

      I wouldn’t. It could be alienating to coworkers and make work political when it doesn’t need to be. I see it as similar to wearing a religious slogan on a pin/tshirt at work; there’s no need. Just live your life and people will catch onto your beliefs just fine.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How would you feel if a coworker was wearing a MAGA hat on casual Friday? If it would bother you, then you shouldn’t wear your shirt.

      The pin on your bag is probably fine though as long as it’s not blatantly in people’s faces all day.

      2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        With all respect, I don’t think, after Charlottsville, that the two sides are really equal in that way any more- I’m not marching with a torch, Trump people are.

        I do see your point though, and I recognize that if one is allowed admin should probably let the other be- unless this is like positive vs. negative stickers or signifiers, like that one letter where a person got in trouble for an LGBT sticker?

      3. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        With respect, after Charlottesville and the Trump people marching with torches, I don’t think the two sides are equally good/bad or should be treated as such, but I see your point from an “office rules” perspective.

        Personally, MAGA hats make me feel unsafe as a queer person, while other political symbols from either side have never done that in previous admins.

        1. fposte*

          Nonetheless, in a workplace, it’s worth considering the parallel when assessing the provocation level. It doesn’t make them morally equivalent.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Thank you for putting this into words. I was struggling to try and explain what I was getting at.

    7. hermit crab*

      I think the tshirt is highly dependent on your workplace. Do other people wear tshirts with writing on them on casual Friday? (We have casual Friday at my office but it’s basically “wear a business casual top with jeans” so nobody wears tshirts at all, regardless of what they say. On the other hand, I saw my neighbor coming home from her office job the other day wearing a “nevertheless, she persisted” shirt, and it wasn’t even Friday.)

      I’d say the bag pin is totally fine, though. To me, that’s more like having a bumper sticker on your car, and less like something you’re actually wearing.

    8. The IT Manager*

      I am of the opinion that “nevertheless, she persisted” is fine. That pin is not.

      The t-shirt advertises your politics, but it’s not insulting. The pin is insulting albeit IMO accurate.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        ….Aaand now I have that parody of the Mary Poppins song stuck in my head “SupercallousfragileracistsexistnastyPOTUS, even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious…”

    9. Arielle*

      I have a bar necklace that says “nevertheless, she persisted” that I wear all the time, but you really have to get up close to see it. I don’t wear my “nolite te bastardes carborundorum” or my “smash the patriarchy” shirts to work because they’re a little more in your face.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Wait, the Handmaid’s Tale one is a shirt? MUST GET!

        (Also, this Christian Left website is selling these shirts of- “liberal Jesus freak because Jesus didn’t ride into town on an elephant!” And various “gay Christian” shirts. But I definitely wouldn’t wear those to work! Maaaybe the “love thy neighbor…thy black neighbor, thy Hispanic neighbor, thy Muslim neighbor, thy gay neighbor, etc. one.” Probably not though).

        I have so many shirts to buy now!

        1. Blue Anne*

          I want one that says “Of course I’m a Socialist. I’m a Christian.”

          But I would probably never wear it out of the house in my sleepy Ohio town.

    10. BRR*

      This isn’t the hill I would die on. I would just go with non-political clothes and avoid any potential issue.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Yeah. I think it comes down to this: do you go to work to make a political point or to do your job and work well with coworkers?

        1. PM Jesper Berg*

          The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. OP works for a law firm. Plenty of law firms are known to skew D or R.

    11. Sadsack*

      Even if I could wear a t-shirt to work, I would not wear anything remotely political, no matter the location.

    12. Red 5*

      I think actually that a pin that said nevertheless she persisted on your bag but be perfectly fine because it’s mostly out of the way and is a much less direct statement than the pin you have. But that one in particular I think would be the kind of thing where if it caused a reaction or a problem, there’s not really a safe spot to retreat to and defend yourself. It’s a direct and overt statement that can’t be misconstrued or misinterpreted.

      With the shirt though, I’d just say no because it’s more visible and more of a deliberate choice that you decided to come in that day with that statement written across your chest. If you were client-facing it would be definitely not okay, but you still are going to interact with co-workers, and who knows who else. You’ll be going to meetings, I don’t know if there’s a chance you’ll see vendors but it’s always possible.

      It also just reflects better on your professionalism to not do slogans that could be interpreted as political statements. I think in general if you want to do t-shirts, I’d go with designs or patterns and skip slogans altogether, but then I’ve always worked in a city that’s known for being uptight about professional dress so my view on it is a bit skewed.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t wear/carry any overtly political items at work. I just don’t. I don’t put them on my car, either; I don’t want a broken window.
      However, I refuse to remove the #I’llGoWithYou trans support I’m-a-safe-space button from my jacket and purse. That’s not really political and can technically be non-partisan.

    14. BlueShedSurvived!*

      I’d be careful. That said, back in 2007 I had a “madam speaker” tote bag for the first female speaker of the house and I used it to bring my lunch to work. Never had any issues but did hear positive comments about it.

    15. krysb*

      When I worked in a law firm, even though I wasn’t in a client facing position, graphic tees were still a no-go, even on casual Fridays.

    16. LCL*

      I would find the button incredibly annoying and snarky. It’s not any kind of a statement, it’s 7th grade name calling. And I am on the same political side as you when it comes to our current Potus. It’s best for all to keep that kind of snark out of work.

  68. Amber Rose*

    Does anyone else have to schedule annoying things? How do you get over being worried that your coworkers will be mad at you for it?

    I have been putting off our annual fire drill because we’ve been so busy and I hate feeling like a bother, which is just ridiculous. It needs to get done! Or we fail our friggin’ audit. -_-

    1. Nanc*

      Look at it this way, if there were an actual fire they’d have to drop what they’re doing and it would take a lot longer to get back into the swing of things, depending on the damage.

      I say do it when it’s convenient for you and get it off your list.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Fire drills are not a waste of time.
      In your case you have to do them for the audit. If people are mad at your then explain to them their anger is misplaced. The order does not come from you, it’s part of procedures.

      To myself, I would say, “Yeah. And when we pull your broken body from the burning building you will be damn glad we practiced this.”

      I have a story that brings a tear to my eye. One nasty winter a nursing home here caught fire. The residents were dragged out into the freezing night air.
      The staff got every patient out.
      Every patient was wrapped in more blankets than necessary.
      The staff got out all the records.
      And they got out all the meds.

      And this is the result of practice drills.
      Tell them to suck it down.

  69. EA*

    Hey all –

    So I started job hunting when my supervisors were sketchy about if it was possible if I could be laid off (my main boss is leaving and I am an EA). I interviewed and accepted a job outside of a support role (which was my goal). I was really happy and excited.

    Yesterday I overheard my supervisors seriously shit-talking me. They were talking loudly so anyone at my desk or the surrounding desks could have heard. It wasn’t really performance issues- just that they didn’t like me and I didn’t have the right personality. They were talking about how I am too quiet and ‘weird’ and that they want someone more social like a girl before me. In this job, in my interview they made a lot of promises about how growth opportunities could exist. I asked for them, and I asked what I needed to do to get them, and they never answers and just made vague promises about in the future, blah blah. Part of my leaving (after 2 years) was also based on that this would clearly never materialize. They were talking about how if I had the right personality and talked more I would have gotten the work. They also said I didn’t ask in the right way. They were going on about how I made a few mistakes when I first started, and they never got over them. I feel like I tried the best I could to show interest and ask for work/feedback.

    I know they are total dicks and I should be happy to leave. I just feel really bad about what I overheard. I am also all anxious now about what if they new job doesn’t like me for personality characteristics I can’t change, or if I make mistakes when I first start and then improve, it will be held against me forever.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I am also all anxious now about what if they new job doesn’t like me for personality characteristics I can’t change, or if I make mistakes when I first start and then improve, it will be held against me forever.

      This isn’t the first job you’ve ever had, is it? Haven’t you made mistakes early in other jobs, and the people there didn’t hold it against you forever? Because they weren’t a big bag of dicks?

    2. Fabulous*

      Unfortunately you can’t control what other people think about you, all you can do is be the best “yourself” you can be :)

      I’ve not gotten a job based on (perceived) personality issues before. Which is super weird to me since I literally have never had any issues with any of my coworkers. Ever. Even with these people who were internally interviewing me. They said I was rude with them at some point while I was working front desk. Literally the conversation went like this:

      Them: (walking up, interrupting me on a particularly hectic day while I was troubleshooting an issue we’ve been having with UPS) I need this overnighted to XYZ company today.
      Me: Um… well we’re having issues with UPS right now and I’m not set up with Fedex so I can’t actually overnight anything right now.
      Them: This needs sent today.
      Me: Ok, well I’ll see what I can do…
      I ended up giving the documents to a co-worker for him to Fedex, since he was set up with an account and I was not. Had to do this for about a month while UPS was being dumb.

      In the internal interview, they asked me my error rate with tasks. I told them I’m usually around 98% mistake-free. They then ask me, “Why then, when we gave you these two documents to overnight, they were sent to the wrong place?” I replied, “Because I did not prepare those envelopes. Co-worker did. I was unable to use UPS due to issues at that time.” They didn’t believe me. Subsequently, I was not hired. Their loss, because I’m fantastic, as I’m sure you are too EA :)

    3. Inspector Spacetime*

      Make sure to personally thank the two shit-stirrers for being so nice and for the professional development opportunities they gave you on your way out the door. Preferably with a saccharine smile.

    5. LAI*

      If it helps, they sound like terrible supervisors. Even if there were something wrong about the way you interacted or asked for work, they should have told you what you needed to work on in order to eventually be eligible for the opportunities.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      ” I am also all anxious now about what if they new job doesn’t like me for personality characteristics I can’t change, or if I make mistakes when I first start and then improve, it will be held against me forever.”

      Then leave that job also. Decide that you will not put up with BS and this is BS. You deserve better than this type of treatment.

      OTH, you can concentrate on how you want a fair shot at the new job, so you are going to give others a fair shot at being reasonable people. Don’t assume people will treat you crappy before you give them a chance to do the right thing.

  70. Fabulous*

    I’ve just gone from have zero things to do to 40 things to do within the next week (of which I’m taking a day off, so fitting it all in 3 days instead of 5). And it’s the 1st of the month, which means a handful of important reports on top of the 40 things. Sigh. Can I just have a middle ground?

  71. Mallory Janis Ian*

    I am so angry right now. I just found out that my former direct report was seen back in our old department sneaking in to take supplies from the first aid cabinet. One of the professors confronted him, and he said, “Oh, you weren’t supposed to see me.”

    I called over to the campus key office to see if he turned in his old keys when he got his new keys, and they said that he still had his old building keys. I told them that he had been seen entering the old department and taking supplies. They said the department would have to send an email to him directing him to turn the keys in, and copy the campus key office so they could monitor whether he did it or not.

    I called my replacement because I was going to tell her that the department head needs to know what is going on. She had already found out because the person who was reporting everything to me finally looped her in. She went to the associate dean about it, and the associate dean sent him an email that if he doesn’t turn in the keys by end of business on Tuesday, the university PD would come to his office for them.

    This is the same guy who I found out last week had lied about his degree on his application. I reported that to the HR at our former college, and I had nearly decided that I would only burn the bridges behind him and leave the ones in front of him for him to burn or not. But finding out that he is such an EXTRA piece of work than I gave even him credit for makes me want to scorch the earth behind, in front, and all around him.

    1. Helpful*

      WOW. “You werent’ supposed to see me”?! I’m glad you’re getting serious support from higher-ups. Not cool. At what point does it become breaking and entering? Are there any other ways to get the PD involved?

  72. Mallory*

    Hi everyone,

    I asked this question about a month ago, but don’t think it made it into Allison’s queue, so I’m putting an abridged version here.

    I’m in my late 20’s and work in a male-dominated industry for a very male-dominated firm (transportation infrastructure engineering, financing, and planning). I am young and conventionally good-looking, which is all well and good. The problem is that I continually field attention from higher-ups (way, way higher-ups) that I know other people at my level don’t get–and I think a lot of it is spurred by the fact that I’m young and attractive. I do well at work, recently got promoted, and am very serious about my career, but am worried about how the semi-unwarranted attention is affecting/will affect my reputation at my firm and in my industry. I want to be taken seriously and continue to advance with the goal of being the first female managing principal at my firm. Any advice would be so great! Thanks :)

    1. La Revancha*

      I’m in the same boat. I just make sure to always remain professional, dress professional, and dismiss any unwarranted attention like it’s not happening. I also work with a VERY successful and good looking woman (probably one of the most successful women in the industry in my city). She is always dressed top notch, very professional, very nice, and I always pay attention to how she speaks with people and works with them. And also, she’s really cool!

      You will advance if you do good work and have a good and positive attitude. I mean, who doesn’t want a bad ass female managing principal who’s also hot? js.. :)

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Are you getting work-appropriate attention that just seems odd because of the hierarchical distance between you and the higher up, but it does not necessarily cross a line like flirting or body comments? (Let’s say the scenario is the EVP always stops & asks you what you’re working on when he sees you at the water cooler, but never asks others tha.t)

      If it is that, I would just leverage that as much as I can. . .because you need to.

      IME, the men have a lot more opportunities to form spontaneous mentoring relationships with higher-ups. My 1000+ person engineering office doesn’t have a single female VP. Male VPs take lower level male managers to lunch, invite them to their lake houses, invite them over for BBQs, etc. Women do not form those types of relationships with our male executives. You may attract the attention because you stick out due to your looks, but you can appropriately use the fact that you stick out and the men at your level are all interchangeable to help keep your name and what you do in front of people who can help recommend you for promotions and such. I’m definitely not suggesting putting up with flirting from bosses, but as long as you keep things professional, you can take advantage of having the ear of someone above you.

      1. Mallory*

        Yes to your question- there is the odd flirting occurrence, which I am well-equipped to handle gracefully, but it’s the other kind of attention- the kind you described- that I’m having difficulty navigating.

        I agree with your approach and have, in general, been doing exactly what you suggested…I just want to take a proactive approach in ensuring my move up the ladder will not be perceived as favoritism, advantageous sexism, unfair, etc, especially if I’m gunning for a senior management position in the future.

        1. Christy*

          The best way to counter that perception is to continue to be excellent in your work, and always make sure you’re getting appropriate credit for what you do.

        2. Chaordic One*

          Second what Christy and La Revancha say. Try to be fair with your co-workers, be a team player and share credit when it is due. Sometimes you’ll have to work harder than some of your co-workers and it isn’t fair. OTOH, no one wants to be the token affirmative action employee.

    3. Christy*

      People also love a wunderkind. I’ve gotten a lot of career attention because I’m the youngest person I can think of in my organization and I’m really smart and I’m really pleasant to work with. I really am one of the strongest employees at my level in terms of technical skill, and I have the best people skills. Most of the higher-ups are women so it’s not gender related. (And while I think I’m attractive I’m not slim, which counts for a lot.) Employers definitely do recognize great potential in a young employee, and at least here they relish the idea of having someone excellent available to work for them for a long time. I would largely treat it as them recognizing that you’re great at your job.

      If you’re still worried about the gender component (fair), I’d heed La Revancha’s advice.

    4. Anion*

      Is it possible that, because it’s a male-dominated industry, they’re all trying to be encouraging and supportive to a female?

  73. MuseumMusings*

    Hallelujah for health insurance. I’ve finally been able to meet with a therapist for all the horrible brain stuff that’s been going on for the past 10 years. She’s recommended that I go on some medications and I have a consult scheduled for next month. We don’t have a formal HR system, just a professional HR consultant and me (doing random HR tasks alongside the accounting, scheduling, office management, etc.) but when is the right time (or is there even a right time) to mention to HR that I’m going on medications that might change my personality or availability? I realize that this is maybe putting the cart before the horse, because I haven’t even been prescribed anything yet let alone having side effects, but do I let them know ahead of time or if I’m seeing lagging in my work? The anxiety this is supposed to treat isn’t really helping with the worrying. :)

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I would not get into it until it is there. When your doctor prescribes something, you can let HR know you are under the care of doctor and have been placed on medication that may require you to work from home at times. If you are really comfortable with your HR rep, you can privately explain it to her, but don’t feel you must disclose aspects of your health and medical treatment that you would not want your boss to know.

    2. Manders*

      I wouldn’t preemptively go to HR or tell anyone your personality might change. I know when you’re anxious it’s really tempting to head these things off at the pass, but really, if you’re well enough to be hired and function in an office you’re well enough that people shouldn’t need advanced warning to deal with you.

      If I’m getting really teary or irritable, I do sometimes tell my direct supervisor that I’m having a bad reaction to a medication and I’m hoping to get it adjusted soon. But that’s the extent that I talk about it at work.

      (I’m about to make a really big change to the medication I take for a hormone disorder, thanks to a new job with new health insurance. Medication change solidarity! I hope both our experiences go smoothly.)

    3. fposte*

      I wouldn’t tell them unless there was something specific you were requesting they do with this information. Right now it doesn’t sound like there is.

    4. MuseumMusings*

      Thank you, I guess I’m just super worried about everything right now. It does make more sense to wait and see if there’s an issue, rather than create a problem before it becomes a problem. Thank you, Ophelia Bumblesmoop, Manders, and fposte!

    5. Chaordic One*

      I wouldn’t say anything to HR or your coworkers. The odds are that the medication will work fine. Most changes in how you feel and in your personality will be very minor and barely noticeable, if there are any at all. You should just feel better and a little bit more like yourself.

      If there’s a problem and you need to go home then just say you don’t feel well. (You REALLY don’t feel well.) If you need time off to see a doctor or other medical professional, then take the time that you need. I wouldn’t say anything unless your boss notices and makes a comment about your job performance lagging or about the time you take off.

  74. Misteroid*

    Not asking for advice, just kind of venting.

    Most of my co-workers know I’m a lesbian, but my boss (the company owner) doesn’t. I’m sure he’ll find out sometime but… ugh, he’s going to be such a dick about it. My supervisor is openly gay, and Boss is well known for making comments about how Supervisor doesn’t quite count as a man, or acting like it’s gross if Supervisor says a guy is good looking. So I don’t want Boss to know, but it’s really disheartening when people assume I’m straight.

    (We’re a very small company, and Boss is a dick in a lot of ways. As I’m sure you can imagine. But the pay is good, I get to go home at 5 every night, and I have a good 401k that Boss matches and pays any fees for.)

    1. Triplestep*

      Bleah. I know you weren’t asking for advice, but …

      I take it your small company does not have an HR department or person? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in, but I believe that “harassment over sexual orientation” is one of the things that can constitute a hostile work environment.

      But if your hope is to get him to cut this stuff out, and if your office is small enough, maybe just encouraging groups of people to speak up when it happens. If he knows people don’t agree with him or think he’s funny, he might just stop. Enough people saying “Oh, c’mon. That’s not funny” might do it.

      Lastly, he probably is worse with your male supervisor than he will be with you. Not that it’s any consolation, but men I’ve seen do this are typically insecure and are over-compensating lest anyone think THEY are Gay. (Horrors!)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, really. Maybe supervisor is trying to tick off the Big Boss by making these remarks. Anyway, there is no reason for someone to be commenting on another person’s looks or body. I remember having a boss who always turned at stared at a delivery person when she came in. Everyone one was grossed out by it.

        That really does not help you much, OP. Except to say that maybe there is something else going on there and it’s not totally about sexual orientation?

  75. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    I work for a state university. We just received Open Enrollment information for calendar year 2018. Our OE dates are Sept 11 – Oct 6. Once again our OE ends so damn early that other employers haven’t even received their information, preventing us from making an educated decision. My husband’s company receives OE guidance on Oct 15 and closes their OE Nov 15. Last year we had to make guesses on which benefits and insurance policy would work best for our family… and we were wrong. It cost us several thousand dollars. In addition, the IRS increased Health FSA employee maximum contributions on Oct 25 – but we were not allowed to update our enrollment in that HFSA to match the new rules. You can bet that if it had been reduced we would have had to redo the paperwork, but when it is in our favor, they don’t bother.

    It’s very frustrating to me because the Chancellor’s office is the one who sets the time frame for the entire state university system. They say they need time to process all those enrollments; I say they clearly need to alter their processes and either hire more people during their “busy season” or cross-train other workers to assist during this time.

    Any suggestions on how to approach this? I’ve spoken with our union rep and she doesn’t think it’s that much of an issue – but her husband doesn’t get benefits at his work so they automatically use hers. She doesn’t need to compare costs and determine out of pocket expenses.

  76. Formal Pajamas*

    I just landed a new contract job (yay!) I have to actually be in their office (less yay!) while working the job, and they say the dress code is “business attire.” It’s been a decade since I worked in an office with a dress code.

    I’m a woman in my mid-30s. I’m not mad about having a reason to spend money on new clothes but I don’t really know what to wear, and Pinterest has been less helpful than everyone would have me believe it would be.

    Last time I had a dress code, I was a punk kid who would wear khaki-colored jeans and solid t-shirts to barely adhere to the business casual requirement. Now I think it might be fun to attempt to be fashionable while looking professional, but I have NO idea where to begin. Any advice for resources for professional dress inspiration and/or places to shop (on a budget)?

    1. La Gaviota*

      Here for this thread! Just landed a new job and am trying to build a more professional wardrobe, as my last position was very casual. (Bonus points if the clothes are ethically made/sourced!)

    2. Genny*

      I like The Limited (though recently I haven’t been terribly impressed with them) and New York and Company (never buy anything full price; they’re always running a sale or have coupons out). Ann Taylor is a bit out of my price range, but I generally like their pieces too. Same with Banana Republic and J Crew.

    3. Triplestep*

      Thrift stores can be good places to shop on a budget, and some recommend eBay if you’re you’re not hard to fit. No doubt someone will come here suggesting ThredUp – I am on record here for suggesting people read reviews before deciding to purchase from them. There’s a pretty good chance the item you get at a bargain necessitated another woman getting ripped off by ThredUp.

      For fashion ideas, I might look at store ads online. I think there’s a pretty good chance they are advertising the most popular, least risky looks. Then after you’ve been in the office a while, you can take look around and see if you want to start adding things to your wardrobe that are more conservative or more fun.

      Congrats on the new gig!

    5. Mallory*

      A) Nordstrom Rack is life. Great brands at great prices for literally every style.
      B) I would honestly e-mail your office manager and ask if there are specific dress code guidelines in the employee handbook, or just ask her what people typically wear to the office. “Business attire” can be interpreted in so many different ways. Maybe buy one or two outfits before starting and tailor your needs once you actually start.
      C) Develop a uniform, like a dress and a blazer, or straight-leg pants and a blouse. Pencil skirt and cardigan. Whatever your thing is. It will make getting dressed in the morning wayyyy easier.

      1. MsM*

        Re: A, if you’re okay with potentially splurging a little, you might want to make an appointment with a personal shopper at Nordstrom. They can give you recs on what looks good, and you can fill in with cheaper stuff at the outlet or elsewhere.

    6. NaoNao*

      Oh boy my fave questions: fashion!!

      I sure do!

      I think business attire generally means one step up from business casual. So: high quality fabrication, natural fibers, and tailored looks, or else very high end deliberately loose (like a 100% silk tunic, for example) looks.

      Some outfits:

      A merino wool or cashmere v neck, fitted but not tight, in a solid darker color, over a paler button down, with solid color, fitted slacks or a knee length solid color fitted skirt. Button down could have a small print. Pair with your choice of legwear (tights, knee highs, stockings) and simple shoes (probably not a heel higher than 2″).

      A sheath dress in a subdued print or a solid, with a matching cardigan. Again, your choice hosiery (mostly neutral, though) with simple, fashionable and high quality shoes.

      A pair of wide legged pants, a button down, and simple flats, with a blazer.

      Advanced:

      Take the wide legged pants and pair with a button down and a vest, and blazer.
      Take the knee length skirt and replace with a midi skirt
      Take sheath dress and replace with a blouse and skirt, or a matching “two piece dress” with cardigan.

      For casual days:
      Button down, knit slacks, boyfriend cardigan.
      Khaki skirt, solid color shell, cardigan
      A-line or skater dress in a solid, blazer or pull over sweater

      Very fashionable:
      Tunic with cropped pants, high heels
      Long straight tank dress with boyfriend cardigan (super high end, only on casual Friday)
      Three piece suit, feminine style
      Blazer, oversized shirt, jeans and “fashion sneakers” (again, casual Friday)

      The look is simple, classic, tailored, high end. Solid or neutrals, classic prints like stripes, plaid, small florals, paisley, etc.

      Brands:
      J. Jill
      Sundance
      Ann Taylor and LOFT
      Gap for basics
      J. Crew
      Madewell for basics like button downs
      Macy’s, Nordstrom, Nieman Marcus, and Nordstrom Rack have *great* career wear
      Banana Republic has terrific prints and silk shells, cardigans with flair
      Eileen Fisher (wearing her right now!)

      Plus:
      ASOS
      Eloquii
      Gwynnie Bee
      Torrid for jeans
      Lane Bryant
      Dress barn (for real, they have had an overhaul and they carry some great plus and standard size career wear)

      Budget:
      Target! Basic solid cardigans, shells, cropped pants, and a great plus sized selection
      The Rack (Nordstrom Rack)
      TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and Ross. Hit or miss, but you can get some simple v-necks, and some cool socks, hose, and tights there for less.

      The problem with Pinterest is that business sometimes means ‘sexy’. Not usually what the average working woman is looking for. One tip I do is search a season with “business” like “fall work looks” or “winter work looks”, things like that. Then use the buttons to narrow it down.

      Blogs:
      Already Pretty
      Wardrobe Oxygen
      Extra Petite (just for inspiration)
      Atlantic Pacific
      Corporette

      Good luck, I love fashion!!

      1. Kately*

        Thank you so much! I am mid 30s and need an all new work wardrobe for my new job and my task this weekend is to go out and figure out what I’m going to wear, so this gives me a few starting points. My previous job I had for a decade is so casual, a maxi dress is seen as fancy – and the new job only permits jeans on Fridays for some departments.

    7. CMDRBNA*

      Pick 3 colors you like, and stick with them.

      No, seriously. That will make putting together a work wardrobe SO much easier and less expensive, and everything will match. My three colors are black, white, and red, but pick whatever three colors you gravitate towards the most.

      I buy a lot of secondhand clothes, and if you can find a Goodwill or similar that’s in or near a ritzy neighborhood you can find some good steals, or higher-end consignment stores (with the caveat that this will be easier if you are not a plus-size or petite-size, most consignment stores are going to be in the 4-10 range and be prepared to leave without buying anything if you don’t find what you want).

      I would hold off on buying most of your stuff until you’ve been at the office for long enough to see what most other people wear, so you don’t do something like buy several suit jackets and then find out that you feel overdressed.

      Pay close attention to how modestly your coworkers are dressing. I’ve worked in offices where wearing a sleeveless shirt was NEVER done, and others where people wore spaghetti straps, and both would have said they were “business casual” if you asked.

      Obviously read the dress code if they have one, but pay more attention to what others are wearing than the dress code, because dress codes often rarely get updated and office norms are more important. For example, most dress pants now are skinny cut, but do your coworkers actually wear those? What about the whole “are leggings appropriate” debate? Does EVERYONE wear jeans on casual Friday? Do people avoid open-toed shoes or sandals?

      In short, pay attention to what your coworkers are wearing. I got SO MUCH FLAK at one job for not wearing jeans on casual Friday (I came from a more formal office and actually didn’t own a pair at the time and didn’t like wearing them), but you would have thought I’d come to work in a bikini because I was wearing a skirt or slacks instead of jeans.

      Basically, being told “business casual” kind of means nothing at all. My current workplace would describe itself as business, and my new boss told me it was more ‘business’ than ‘casual,’ so I wore dressier business clothes when I started, and she was wearing khaki capris, sneakers, and a T-shirt, which I do not consider business attire.

      I’d try to avoid trendy stuff like cold-shoulder tops, because those are iffy about whether they’re acceptable and they will also look dated very quickly.

      By sticking to the same few colors, you’ll be able to get by with fewer clothes and you’ll always look put together. My signature thing is mixing patterns together, but I always wear the same colors so everything always goes together.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        +1 to the Goodwill suggestion – particularly in wealthier neighborhoods. Most of my higher end pieces come from Goodwill. ThreadUp is also another option for this, and you can find YouTubers and content creators (including Allison, if I’m remembering a past post correctly) offering 40% off codes pretty frequently.

        Also, I wouldn’t invest too much money in your wardrobe until you’ve been there for a few weeks. I’m also (hopefully) starting a new job soon; the soft offer letter said that the attire was “business professional,” yet everyone there when I interviewed was wearing jeans and a blouse. So I’m going to dress conservatively and wait it out for a while before buying a ton of new pieces (which will probably be necessary, considering I’m one of the more well dressed people in my t-shirts at my current job).

    8. Indie*

      I love talking work fashion! If I was working on a desert island (iykwim) my must haves are:

      Shift dress- head and arms through three holes and you are instantly super smart. I tend to do navy/charcoal.
      Flats – I choose ballet (with cut outs in summer) these are also my pop of colour, such as red or emerald. I dont have time for accessories.
      Perma pleat skirt – it looks as if you iron! As if!
      Wide leg pants – just because I heart Katherine Hepburn .

  77. AndersonDarling*

    I have a co-worker that can drive me crazy with questions. How to attach a document, how to fax, how to format, how to save a file, where did the file go… It really gets on my last nerve.
    But, he is in his position because he was hurt and can’t do the role he was in for 20 years. So I just remember that if something happened to me, the company would make sure I had a job as well, and I take a deep breath and run through how to save a document one.more.time.

    1. Triplestep*

      Can you suggest to him that he write things down? I once had someone teach me to write a PO, and I took notes which I referred to forever after. (Even after the person who taught the task was let go!)

      Otherwise, kudos on having a positive way to think about this.

    2. Snark*

      Are they the same questions over and over? Because that’s legitimately annoying, and I think you can ask him to take notes, write things down, and generally not bug you redundantly.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Usually it’s a slightly different version of the same question. Instead of “How do I save a file?” it’s “How do I save a copy somewhere else?” or “Where do I save it so other people can see it?”
        He really is trying, but he never, ever worked with computers so the idea of changing a file name is terrifying for him because he may accidentally erase or loose the file. And he is very nice about asking for help…but when I get 3 or 4 in a day, it sure adds up!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That’s a fear I can completely understand. Is there any way to reassure him? Our IT guy told me on my first day that if I accidentally erase something from the network, come to him right away and he’ll retrieve it. I’m pretty good about computer stuff, but just that reassurance is very helpful. It’s not really your job, but maybe assuring him that he can try these things without dire consequences might help relieve the pressure?

    3. Nanc*

      Just out of curiosity, did he receive any sort of training? If not, it’s not unreasonable to have him take classes in basic computer stuff–is that something you could suggest to him or to your supervisor (since it’s impacting you). Also, if SOPs don’t exist for his position, encourage him to take notes and create them. If he’s uncomfortable saving them on the computer–how do I find them again?!–he can go old school, print them out and stick them in a binder.

      Who knows, with some basic classes maybe he’ll be confident enough to create a YouTube SOP channel for the company intranet!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Unfortunately, his training would have to be in really basic things like how files are stored and how programs interact with the computer. The position itself is straightforward and has a lot of phone time, it’s similar to making sure partners submit their work on time. It’s not too complicated, but the interaction with the computer are difficult.
        The other day he asked is I could show him how to use the COUNT function in Excel and I was really reluctant since he doesn’t quite grasp how spreadsheets work. But I walked him through it 3 times, corrected his formula when it didn’t work, and he eventually got it. There are now Counts all over his spreadsheets! You are right, he can get it, it’s just a really slow process that takes patience.

        1. Nanc*

          Hmmm. It still might be worth sending him to basic computer classes. If nothing else, you know he’s had instruction in the very basics and honestly, it sounds like he needs it. It’s admirable that your employer wants to keep employees but taking someone from hands-on physical labor (which is an assumption on my part since you mentioned an injury) to using a computer for basic job tasks is a big change. Our brains have to be trained how to figure out tasks and sometimes that learning process has to be tweaked in order to do a very different job.

          It sounds like you want to help but are getting frustrated at always having to help. It’s worth suggesting to the higher-ups that investing in training for him is good as it will help him be more comfortable in his job and let you focus on your job without interruptions.

          Good luck–let us know how it goes.

          1. Troutwaxer*

            Buy him something like “Windows 10 For Dummies” and tell him that reading it is not necessary, but he should keep it at his desk and use it as a reference. (If you think the “For Dummies” is not appropriate there are similar books with kinder names.)

  78. Anon just in case*

    I need some salary negotiating wisdom from the AAM Brain Trust, please!

    I am in the “checking references” stage of my candidacy, and salary has not yet been mentioned other than to confirm what I currently make. (My policy has been to provide my current salary when it’s a required field in an application, but to use the advice I’ve learned here when asked in person or on a phone screen.)

    I actually had forgotten that I had provided my current salary until the recruiter said “and you’re currently making $X?” and I answered “Yes, more or less”. I was caught off guard, and I really do make “more or less $X” if you consider my salary plus bonus. (It’s a number just a couple thousand above my salary and just below my scanty bonus.) All this is provable, but I’m worried that I came off as padding my current salary.

    I guess that would have been the time to ask about the salary range, but I did not. I thought I would have a chance to speak about it before they checked references, but after the interview stage I simply got an e-mail from the 3rd party company that collects feedback from references, and that was it.

    I’ve been assuming that they plan to at least meet what I am making now, and if they offer less, I have some tools from searches here on how to handle that. But on the off chance their range had been higher, what would be the best way to make sure I take the best advantage of that?

    For the record, I have done my salary research, but it’s been difficult because it’s a hybrid job title. When I search the salaries for the two titles separately, I am making above average. I am just trying to avoid a situation where I take the job only to find out that it’s a grade level that job family could be earning much more.

    Thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You don’t have to put your current salary in if it’s a required part of an online application. Just put in $0 as a placeholder.

      The fact that the recruiter double-checked your current salary is a bad indicator that they want to low-ball you. Why else would your previous salary be relevant? They should offer you what you’re worth, not what they can get away with.

      That said, if you’ve done the research, rely on the research and use that to present your case. You can do only what you can do.

      1. Anon just in case*

        Thanks. I have tried $0 in required form fields and have never once gotten a response on one of those. That indicates to me that $0 is a direct route down the drain of the applicant tracking system.

        I also had one recently where my skills and experience (down to the obscure software they used) checked ALL the boxes, but I declined to say what year I graduated college (why didn’t they just come right out and ask my age?) I’m sure the same thing happened. Seriously, it was a job that – based on recent experience – I should have gotten a recruiter screen, but nothing. They re-posted the job, too.

        If you don’t play their game, a human will not see your resume. I figure better to state what I actually make when there’s no other choice.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, that also tells you something about the place you’re applying to, if they screen out people who won’t reveal their current salaries. If you can, I would dodge the bullets and focus on other companies, but people got to eat…

          1. Anon just in case*

            It’s nice that you think I am being flooded with offers, or even find jobs to apply for that meet my skill set!

  79. Susan*

    I just wanted to get some opinion on this and if I mis-stepped here and what to do next.

    A coworker went on an interview and used me as a reference (we’re close so I knew he was going).

    I applied to a job later that week. After a while I realized…oh crap, that’s where my cw interviewed. I told him about it, and ehhh he wasn’t too thrilled with it. Initially he didn’t take it well but when he realized that I didn’t do it on purpose, he apologized.

    FYI I haven’t heard back, but I plan to pull out of the application process for that very reason. Do I let it be? Proactively reach out? If they reach out what do I say?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Why would you pull out? You’re just as entitled to apply as he is. He doesn’t get “dibs” just because he saw it first.

        1. Purple snowdrop*

          I still don’t understand why you’d pull out. I mean, either way you might not be able to be his reference any more, but I don’t think you need to withdraw on friendship grounds and if he expects you to, that’s actually weird IMO.

          1. Susan*

            I had already provided the reference after I applied, idk looking at it from the outside it would look fishy to me.

            I wouldn’t do that for anyone else, and no other job I go ahead and apply to, but I just felt like ther’es some sort of etiquette involved in this?

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              Was your reference a negative reference? I would think if you provided a glowing reference for him, it wouldn’t seem a conflict of interest. If you were, however, appearing to sabotage his candidacy, that would be a problem.

              1. Susan*

                No it was glowing, and rightfully so (great coworker, will miss him when he leaves).

                Now I got paranoid that they may take the glowing reference in a wrong way (“is he really this great or are they trying to get rid of him?”). I’m really overthinking this.

                1. Anonymous Educator*

                  If you were trying to get rid of him, why would you apply for the same job he’s applying for? I think your heart is in the right place, but you may be overthinking this. You did nothing wrong.

                2. Purple snowdrop*

                  ITA. I think you’re totally overthinking this. Unless you’ve missed out a key piece of info- we’re all saying ‘but why?’ and don’t understand why you’d pull out. Don’t worry, stop overthinking, if he gets it then that was meant to be, if he doesn’t then that wasn’t meant to be and you might or might not. All is well :)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If this is a good friend then I would back away.
      I do understand that most people do not agree with this, so I don’t have any expectations for others. I’d do it so I could live with myself.

      If you do decide to withdraw, let him know that you have withdrawn.

  80. La Gaviota*

    A question about freelancing and billing!

    My partner is doing some freelance cataloging/boxing/moving of a book collection at a school. The collection was about 25k books, so he’s been plugging away at it for a few months, and is almost done. The last few shelves of books he was asked to “not touch” until someone came and signed off on it.

    For the last three days, he’s been waiting for the “ok” to catalog and box up the last of the collection. He shows up onsite at 8am, texts the guy who hired him to ask him to come sign off on the last few books, the guy confirms, and then my partner… waits. All day. My partner always checks in each morning (“Hey, I’m here, will you be able to come sign off today?”), the guy confirms, and usually sends a followup an hour or two later (“So and so will be showing up and giving you the ok this afternoon”), but he’s now on his third day of just waiting around, not really able to leave.

    He has other personal projects he works on during that time, but can he bill them for those hours? He’s showing up on time (he sets his own schedule, but has been sticking to a pretty steady 8-4 for the last few months), alerting the guy that he’s there and ready for the sign-off to keep working, and then waiting because the guy confirms that he’ll check in and give the ok. My sense is that he should be able to bill for these hours (and that it would be different if the guy was saying “I’m not going to be able to make it work today, you should head home”). Thoughts?

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, I’d bill that. He’s onsite and ready to work; it’s their problem if they don’t have it together. Maybe realizing that sl0w-walking is actually costing them will get things moving.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Heck yeah. He’s there for their convenience, not his.

      If he’s uncomfortable with it, he might try being more specific. Instead of just checking in, he could try to make an appointment ahead of time. “I’ve done everything I can do at this point. I can’t move on until I get your okay. Do you want to set up a specific time?” And if he’s feeling guilty about the billing, he can add “I don’t mind waiting, if you need to leave things open-ended, I just wanted to make sure you’re aware that I’m on the clock as long as you need me on site.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’d be more blunt.
        “Just so you are aware, I have to bill for the hours that I work. My bill has to reflect that I have spent 3 days and x hours waiting on site for approval to pack these books. Why don’t you call me once the approval is in place and I will return to the worksite to finish. It would be more cost effect for the organization if we did it this way.”

  81. Sarasaurus*

    I’ve always been mildly interested in working in HR or recruiting, but don’t have any sort of experience. My background is in marketing/event planning. Has anyone successfully made a career change to HR? How did you go about doing that? Also, HR professionals – what kind of skills, traits, and strengths are more important in your field? What kind of person does or doesn’t do well?

  82. Genny*

    How do you all deal with imposter syndrome? I’m a young women, still relatively new to the workforce (under five years) and I struggle a lot with feeling like I’m failing. On top of that, I’m one of those people who thrive on words of affirmation. If I’m not getting positive feedback at work, the imposter syndrome makes me feel like I’m failing. I know it’s not true, and I really don’t want to become needy like Margaret from one of the letters this week (i.e. I don’t want to become dependent on being congratulated for doing basic functions of my job). I just want to be able to do my job without the internal monologue about how bad of a job I’m doing. Any advice?

    1. Kately*

      Some strategies I’ve used to deal with this (I went through the same thing):

      – Acknowledge that just because your brain says something (ie. you’re a useless employee) doesn’t make it true;
      – Take time to sit down and think about things that you have done and succeeded at, and revisit it often. Don’t denigrate or dismiss your achievements – if a friend wouldn’t talk to you that way, don’t speak to yourself that way either. In the same vein, be your own friend or parent – take care of yourself, practice good sleep hygiene, make sure to move around a bit every day, and eat reasonably well.
      – Take advantage of training or new learning opportunities – keep your brain busy chewing away on other things.
      – Forgive yourself if and when you do mess up – focus on your takeaways and lessons.

      The main thing is to build up your internal bank a bit so you don’t need to go around seeking praise from others. You are pretty good! You’re worried about it and working on improvement. That’s a lot more valuable than you’d think. And even if you do mess up, you have the tools and skills to navigate it.

      1. Kately*

        The other rule I enforce for myself is that neutral/no response is not automatic negative. Things are good until proven otherwise. It’s tough, but being cheerful and matter-of-fact even when I’m internally a mess has saved me in situations where I normally would have assumed the worst and gone on the attack/defensive unnecessarily. It’s a corollary to the “Do not attribute malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity” rule.

    2. Book Lover*

      I’m fifteen years in and still dealing with this. My recommendation would be counseling for cognitive restructuring and changing the internal dialogue. Because based on my experience, it doesn’t magically go away over time.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I had one job where I was told, if people are not yelling at you then you are doing a fine, fine job.
      Sigh.

      You can reduce the need for affirmations by looking at the whole of your life and finding positives. Setting personal goals and reaching the goals is one good way to have a tangible affirmation about life in general.

      You can also reduce the need for affirmations by doing things that make you proud of you. Once in a while, I can come up with an idea where I am actually proud of myself for arriving at this idea. I have noticed that usually people do not think twice about this brainstorm of mine. ha! But satisfaction comes from within. People can tell us we have done a good job until they are blue in the face, and if we do not think we have done a good job then those people have wasted their time. So what we think ourselves think of our own work does matter.

      When you start having negative thoughts, turn it around. Either tell yourself something positive OR decide that the thought has merit and figure out how to remedy that particular situation. See, no one can stop our internal monologue. We have to deliberate cut off the negative thoughts ourselves. One thing I have done with some success is invest in me by taking a course or reading a book that would help me do my job better. This investment does help with the internal dialogue.
      Also remember that some self-critiquing is good. We should push ourselves along to do better and aim higher. But that push should not leave bruises or scars. Be kind, guide yourself forward gently but consistently.

  83. Allison*

    A colleague of mine was let go yesterday, in the middle of the day. In the morning she was there, by our 1PM meeting she was gone. Logically, I know that it could have been any number of things, maybe some serious error or maybe an attitude problem I wasn’t aware of, or maybe her performance just wasn’t where it needed to be. I know she’d been frustrated but people in her position are often frustrated, the job is hard!

    Anyway, part of me is now worried I might be next. She performed a different function than me but she was in my department, what if this means they’re cleaning house and cutting low performers across the board? What if this means the standards of performance and/or attitude have increased? I know this is irrational and illogical, but is it normal to have these concerns after an unexpected firing? Would talking to my boss about this concern be an overreaction? I guess I just wanna know I’m not crazy and will probably feel better in a couple weeks.

    1. Gaia*

      It can be normal to be shocked and worried after a sudden firing. But in healthy companies you’ll know if you’re not performing as expected. In healthy companies it is more surprising to you than to the coworker that was fired.

      It might be worth talking to your manager about this.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it would be reasonable for you to say to your boss:

      “Do you have any feedback for me on my performance? Lucinda’s departure yesterday made me a little nervous and I’d like to know if there is anything I should be working on improving.”

    3. Triplestep*

      Wait, they just let her go and they didn’t say anything about it?

      I went through one group downsizing, and one co-worker firing, and both times those of us who remained were addressed about what had happened. In the case of the firing (since that sounds like what this was) our manager met with the rest of us; She was very diplomatic, and seemed truly sorry it had come to that. I had had no idea my co-worker had been on a PIP that he was not performing to.

      I think you’re well within your rights to discuss this with your manager and and give her the opportunity to be as polite and transparent as my manager was in this example – it does not have to devolve to the level of gossip. This will set your mind at ease and give her the opportunity to handle this the right way.

        1. Triplestep*

          East Coast Swing ;-)

          (It’s also in some dances that come under the heading of “folk” as well.)

    4. NaoNao*

      There’s a slim chance that there was a “last straw” situation that you weren’t aware of brewing, and either the manager or the employee left suddenly.

    5. NW Mossy*

      I know Alison has suggested in the past that managers talk about their performance management process generally and what that looks like, so that employees have a clear sense that it’s a process that involves ample opportunity for getting back on track. That advice is intended to address exactly the kind of concerns you have, which are very common.

      I’m actually grappling with the best way to have that conversation with my team, because I’ve got a low performer on a plan that just massively botched the primary deliverable she needed to produce as part of that plan. The nature of the error indicates that the employee doesn’t take the situation seriously and doesn’t intend to do what’s required to complete the plan and avoid being fired, so there’s very little chance that I won’t fire her in the very near future. It’s not necessarily obvious to others that she’s been getting intensive performance management for years, and there’s some risk that my team will view this as the new boss cleaning house and start getting anxious about it.

  84. Anony Here*

    I am floored.

    A small department at my company was in a meeting back in May when their manager was having a casual conversation with them and began discussing sex acts…in detail…that he wanted to do with various coworkers. The employees were upset and complained to HR (this was part of a pattern of sexualized conversations) and asked to have a formal sexual harassment investigation. Since then they’ve heard nothing until yesterday.

    They were told yesterday their entire department is being closed and moved to a new site (not terribly uncommon) and that they will not be allowed to move to the new site (unheard of – everyone has been offered the chance to move before). Their options are to be laid off or take a new position with a 50% paycut. Their manager is keeping his job and being transferred to another team where he’ll ultimately make more money.When they said this felt retaliatory for their complaint they were told this was in the works for months. However, just before they filed their complaint they were put through a very expensive, multi week training course which is only relevant to their department.

    I am not saying this is definitely retaliation, but this looks really really bad.

    4. Anony Here*

      They were also asked to immediately sign paperwork saying they would take a small severance or the new (demoted) position but if they took either they could never sue.

      None of them signed it. They’ve all been told not to return to work until they are ready to sign.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Good thing they are talking to a lawyer, because I’m not sure if that would be legally binding. In some states, at least, if you make severance pay contingent on some agreement that compromises the employee’s legal rights, it may be difficult to enforce the agreement.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think if I were one of those people I would be writing down what that manager said, word for word as best I could remember. Put the graphic detail down on paper for all to see.

      A person who talks like this gets promoted. I think that tells everything right there.

      I hope you are looking.

    6. Ann O.*

      I will never understand why companies protect people like the manager. What is the advantage to the company of losing the entire team?

    7. Anony Here*

      The plot thickens. They’ve all been locked out of their company email and all received a letter telling them they are terminated with severance with no mention of the other position (with paycut).

      I’ve been thinking about looking elsewhere for awhile. I’m out of here now. This is really not okay.

  85. NaoNao*

    Ooh omg I’m so excited. I have an interview with a super high profile aerospace company (won’t say, don’t want to jinx!!) and it keeps getting pushed back by the recruiter. Right now I’m on pins and needles waiting to hear when the next scheduled time is, heh.

    Wish me luck, I am *dying* to get this job!!

      1. NaoNao*

        Thanks! I had a weird and frustrating situation where my network for my phone completely died for about an hour, and although she pushed the meeting, she tried to call and didn’t get through! Augh! However she did email and ask for a rescheduled call Sunday or Monday so whee! All is not lost.

  86. Roseberriesmaybe*

    I’m proud of myself this week for turning down a study opportunity that would have stretched me too thin. Career advancement is important, but so is mental health, your other obligations, and the other parts of your life

  87. Mela*

    Question from TV!

    So the episode of Friends where Rachel starts a new job and her boss and co-worker end up making all the decisions outside during their smoke breaks. What should she have said? Should she have been forthright about not wanting to miss out on the work talk? Or something else?

  88. Greengirl*

    I am in an Arts Management Masters program and in one of my courses we are having a “Management Book Club” assignment where we each read books about management and leadership and present them to the class. Our professor has put together the list of books (it currently includes books like Creativity, Inc, Never Eat Alone, From Good to Great, Smart Artists Don’t Starve, etc). She would really love to get books on there that are not written by white men since right now the only book written by a woman on the list is Lean In and all of the other books are written by white men. Other than Allison’s book about managing nonprofits, does anyone have any recommendations?

    2. Nanc*

      The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World by by Marti Olsen Laney. It has a great chapter on management with examples of how to manage extroverts when you’re an introvert and how to manage introverts in general. Honestly, it was one of those books that made me cry with relief because it gave me tools to better function as an extreme introvert when my profession is normally populated with super-extroverts.

    3. Fresh Faced*

      The Collaborative Habit by Twyla Tharp was good last time I picked it up. it’s not specifically about management in a business sense, rather as the title suggests group collaboration, but it might be applicable to what you want.

    5. Working Rachel*

      Radical Candor (written by a woman and a man) or The Results-Only Work Environment (maybe dated now, but I found it really helpful when I read it).

  89. Biff*

    I have a question regarding LinkedIn — I just started a job with a title that is very off from industry standard — imagine “Teapot Technician” when my job is “Teapot and Business Analyst.” Can I put a more industry standard title on LinkedIn?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      I would put your actual title and then be detailed about what your work consists of. Perhaps you could put the industry standard title in parentheses . Otherwise it could look like you’re falsifying your information.

    2. Small but Fierce*

      I would put the industry appropriate title with no company as your headline (“Industry Appropriate Title”). Under your job description, put your actual role and the company you’re with (“Actual Job Title” at Teapots, Inc.). That way you’ll fall under both keywords.

  90. Excel Slayer*

    Any advice for dealing with someone who talks over you/takes it upon themselves to attempt to provide the stuff you had to report during meetings. (Indeed, this is a middle aged man/younger woman dynamic. So would also appreciate anything specific to that.)

    1. Biff*

      “Excuse me, I was talking.”

      “I’d like to talk about your concern in a moment, since it is relevant to Joan’s concerns as well.”

      “Please stop speaking over me. It’s rude.”

      Deliver these with a tone that indicates you know what he’s doing and you expect him to stop.

  91. Anon for this*

    Should I cancel my upcoming vacation in favor of a job I’m miserable at?

    I have a one week vacation scheduled in a couple weeks. It’s been on the calendar & approved for a year and I’ve been REALLY looking forward to it. But then, work trips started getting added in. I now have 2 back to back international trips the two weeks following my vacation. Plus, a quick 2 day trip the week before. I also had some family issues and was out of the office for a couple weeks over July/August. But, I still have plenty of vacation time since I hadn’t had a chance to use much the past few years.

    To complicate matters, I am REALLY unhappy with my job right now. My team has been through ridiculous turnover and I’ve been barely holding everything together (regularly getting praised by colleagues for going above and beyond) but my supervisor is a nightmare who thinks I just need to take time management classes (when actually, I’m doing my job and the jobs of 2 people who left.) I also found out that my peer in another division who does the exact same job makes 80% more than I do.

    So I’m actively job hunting. I’ve told my boss that I’m burnt out and overwhelmed and she doesn’t care. I really want to go on my vacation and I need the mental break, but three back to back week of travel sounds exhausting. I absolutely cannot get out of work trip #1. I might be able to skip trip #2, but that would actually be the less stressful and more useful one.

    Any advice? My feeling is kind of just to power through it and ignore my boss when she complains that I’m out so much. But I’m also not in a place where I trust my decision making skills.

    1. anna green*

      I definitely say take the vacation. It doesn’t sound like you are actually out a lot at all, unless she counts business travel as being out? Which is nuts. My only suggestion would be if too much travel would make your vacation less fun, consider changing the location so its closer, if thats even an option at this point. But definitely take the vacation!! And good luck finding a new job.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks! I was out for 2 weeks in August for personal/family emergencies. And my boss does consider work travel as “being out”… basically if she can’t call me, then she is annoyed. Even if it a work trip she is sending me on.

        The vacation isn’t really movable. It’s an annual family trip (parents, siblings, grandparents, etc) that I’ve missed the past 5 years, which is another reason I was super excited to finally get to go.

    2. Long time lurker*

      I see no problem with taking an approved vacation. This is just a matter of whether or not *you* want to still take it. Maybe do a staycation if you want the break but don’t want to travel?

      I’m not very experienced in the workplace but that’s what my judgement is telling me…

    3. Gina*

      Take the vacation.

      I’ve been in a similar situation twice–in 2001 I gave up concert tickets I desperately wanted, for AiC. The lead singer died before I got another chance to go. The second time, I gave up a trip to New Orleans in 2004, and obviously regret that as well. I have heard the Universe loud and clear, and no longer make those types of decisions in favor of work.

    4. CatCat*

      Take the vacation.

      The boss doesn’t care that you are underpaid and overworked. I have Been There. You need to look out for yourself, not a job where your boss does not look out for you. Enjoy your vacation and focus on your exit plans.

  92. Wing Commander Floofengarten*

    For those who get all or a portion of your cell phone costs reimbursed how does it work at your company? Do you have to turn in a bill? And are only certain items reimbursed or is there a dollar limit?

    1. Gaia*

      I get my cell phone reimbursed. My company doesn’t require us to submit a bill, they just reimburse up to $75. Which is great for me because my bill is only $45. I supposed I *could* claim all $75 but that seems unethical to me so I just claim the $45 and move along.

    2. Kathenus*

      We have a choice of purchasing a separate phone on our own and having the company pay for the cost of the plan; or using our own phone and getting reimbursed $50. No receipts needed.

    3. Rick Tq*

      My company provides a cell phone, and I prefer it that way.

      I’ve been here 18 years but when I do leave I don’t have to worry about getting job-related calls on my personal number OR losing a cell number I’ve used for the same number of years for personal business.

    4. Rogue*

      I’ve had it done a few different ways. At the last company, initially, you were able to choose between being provided a company phone or using your own and being reimbursed $120/month, no bill required. Half way through the last project, they dropped the reimbursement to $65 and started requiring a bill and refused to provide company cell phones.

    5. krysb*

      My company provides the cell phone and pays all but $30 a month – $15 gets deducted from all of my paychecks to pay my portion.

    6. nonegiven*

      My husband gets $60 before taxes and is required to have at least a voice plan. They do give him a lot of crap about only using a flip phone, but that started when they were still providing the phone and voice plan and upgrading to a smartphone and data plan were on the employee’s dime.

  93. Lab Monkey*

    I’ve been job searching recently after losing my previous job in July. I’m a returning student part time, so finding things that are in my field or related fields that work with the scheduling concerns has been pretty tough, so I’ve only applied for a handful of jobs in that time. I also have a background, unrelated to my professional field, in Teapot Games, and when a part time job doing game-related work at a surprisingly good pay came across my radar I applied. In my experience, these jobs have really great flexibility and are the sort of thing you can leave at work, brain-wise, both valuable to a post-bacc pre-med student.

    I contacted them and after a phone and brief in-person meeting was offered the job on the spot. (My experience level in Teapot Games is unusually good, better than a lot of people launching start-ups in the business, and I’ve been headhunted for this and related work in the past, so this did not in any way surprise me.) The pay offered was higher than any of their competitors, the location would work well with a move for my partner’s new job, and there were clear growth avenues if I wanted them. I verbally accepted.

    I got the official offer letter a few days later and…they’ve totally misclassified this job. This is work that can only be done by an employee (especially thinking around time on site/hours of work requirements), but they have the contract drawn up for an independent contractor. This absolves them of specific things, like sick leave (we’re in CA) and the whole tax problem, and explains why the per hour offer was so high! I thought what would Alison Green do?? and wrote them a short note thanking them for the offer and explaining the above. I’m still willing to work there, if they’d classify me correctly AND pay me what they originally offered, but I doubt that’ll come through – and I’m not the first employee, and I doubt I’m the only one they’ve attempted to sign on as a contractor. On the other hand, I have an interview for a position in my field later today.

    My actual question: should I take this as a red flag? I’m treating it as yellow for now – I interviewed with the owner, and I strongly suspect they just didn’t realize they don’t get to choose if their workers are employees or contractors. What would you do in my shoes?

    TL;DR: I was offered a job that misclassified the work as independent contractor to presumably get out of the tax and benefit requirements. I informed them of their mistake and don’t quite know where to go from here.

    1. Undine*

      A lot depends on how they respond to your email. I once pushed back on the terms of a contract for 1099, and ended up talking directly to their lawyer, who was very willing to answer all of my questions, many of which were really just newbie don’t-know-much-about-contracts questions, but I learned a lot. So I was happy to work for them. Another time I turned down a misclassified contract, in part because of other red flags.

      If they classify you correctly & pay you what you want, then they have showed they are reasonable. However, if they really decide they need to reclassify, don’t expect them to be in a position to make the offer soon. They would have to retool their budget and their approach to the position and that would take some time.

      1. Lab Monkey*

        Thanks, that aligns with what I expected. The in-field interview went well and I might side step the whole mess.

  94. Coffee Ninja*

    My mom is the office manager for a small doctor’s office. They’re having trouble, basically, with one of the employees being rude to everyone else and pushing her work off on others. The doctor wants to hire someone to come in and do some type of “professionalism training” (insert eyerolls). Does anyone know of anything like this? They’re in Brooklyn.

    2. JulieBulie*

      Weird. Most employees don’t need “training” to know that they need to be polite and do their own work. They need a PIP. And if that doesn’t work, they need to be replaced. Hiring a trainer will be a waste of money.

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        Agreed! It’s an exceptionally dysfunctional workplace, so this is just one of many strange efforts.

    3. Clairels*

      Also, if I were one of the other employees, I’d be pretty resentful sitting through this training when everybody knows it’s just one person who’s causing all the problems.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Or the doc could just tell the employee to stop it or be fired.
      This option would be less expensive.

  95. Admin Anon*

    A big issue that I’m currently facing at work is front desk coverage for drs appointments and the like. I am an admin/receptionist and have a coworker who is the same level as me and a manager above us. What we currently do is ask other departments to help cover incoming calls when one of us has to leave or calls out, but other departments are being less responsive than they used to be (with some refusing to cover) and our manager is reluctant to cover and only will when left with no other options. It is coming increasingly difficult for me to keep a good attitude about this situation and I have suggested solutions only to have them shut down. This company is big on work life balance, but I’m not seeing it.

    Any advice on how to deal? Maybe another solution to this issue that I’m not thinking of? I am currently looking for other work, but I’m hoping to avoid leaving the company altogether, but I am really frustrated!

    1. LCL*

      Ask your manager how a company that claims to be big on work life balance can justify not allowing you time off for appointments. This is the kind of thing the manager should solve.

    2. Sadsack*

      Your manager is reluctant to cover unless there are no other options? That’s ok. Keep doing what you can to arrange coverage and tell him when you can’t. Has he ever asked you to cancel an appointment? As long as you are not abusing your PTO, I wouldn’t worry about it. I would actively ignore any huffing or facial expressions indicating his displeasure unless he expressly tells you that you cannot go to your appointment.

  96. Somniloquist*

    I have a great job where the hours are 9-5. However, occasionally an 8am meeting pops up and typically when this happens, it’s because a senior executive wants time with the team. I am not great at remembering that I have an early morning meeting. I have a sleep disorder and when I wake up in the mornings, I’m like a zombie for the first hour and I go through the motions. I also have two phones, and my calendar reminders are on my work phone which is usually in my work bag. These aren’t excuses, just reasons that I’m not good at this and I accept responsibility for being late when others aren’t.

    Anyway, I was late to a meeting today and this is becoming a mortifying pattern. I know it reflects poorly on me and I’d like to change. Do you all have any ideas on how I can make sure I can remember these random meetings? I would really appreciate any advice.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Seems pretty obvious that you should put calendar reminders about 8 am meetings on your personal phone as well. Also, try checking tomorrow’s calendar before you leave, and if you’ve got an early meeting the next day, put a post-it note on your bathroom mirror as soon as you get home to remind you. It’s been my experience that if I make myself think about something as I’m going to bed, I’m more likely to remember it when I wake up, and it might work for you too.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      What I do is, as soon as the calendar invite comes in, I set a reminder on my personal phone to pop up the night before the meeting at say, 9pm, when I’m starting to get ready for bed. This triggers me to adjust my alarm clock for the next day. Then I title to alarm something in all-caps like “YOU GOTTA GET UP FOR THE BIG MEETING” which is obnoxious but always works for me. (I’m a big fan of using “Hey Siri” for these kinds of reminders; it somehow makes it feel a lot easier to get done.)

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Do you need to be at these meetings or could you opt out as a reasonable accommodation?

      I have a sleep disorder and I sympathise big time.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I think you could reasonably ask that they aren’t at 8am. You have an illness – they need to accommodate you.

    4. Camellia*

      One suggestion is to create a new pattern for yourself. Keep your alarm set at the same time every day, for a time that will allow you to make it on time to an early meeting. Then when you don’t have an early meeting that day, do something else with that time – maybe something for work, but also maybe something for you – do a load of laundry, exercise,take an on-line class, work on a hobby, etc.. You say you are a zombie in the morning but maybe one of these other activities would help you wake up.

      I also agree with the others about putting notifications on both phones, use sticky notes or whatever else to remind you on a day when you do have the meeting.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I second the waking up earlier every day part. I’m also a zombie in the morning, and I get up earlier than I absolutely have to so I have time to wake up. I usually just drink coffee and read the news online, but if I don’t do this, then I get anxious and stressed trying to get ready. I NEED to wake up before I do anything.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Absolutely agreeing here. When I was in my 20s I had a random sleep schedule. On weekends I slept to 11 am. I noticed that I was having difficulties during the week. It took time and it was not without pain, but I put myself on a schedule where I get up at the same time every day. On weekends I allowed myself a nap later on. It made such a huge difference.
          I can’t relate to people get up and leave the house a half hour after waking. But reality is that I still had to be on time despite of what my morning wake up habits looked like. Having a fixed schedule for rest really helped.

  97. Rincat*

    I’m working from home today because of all the gas craziness here in Texas, and it’s…not very productive! I worked from home 60% of the week for about 4 years in my last job, and loved it. I thought I’d never be able to live without it. I think the work I was doing lent itself much more to telecommuting, and now in my current job, it doesn’t as much. There’s people I need to talk to directly and stuff that would get done much faster if I was in the office. Funny how that turned out. (I will say, it was nice to get up at 7 this morning instead of 5….)

    1. AllDogsArePuppies*

      Sleeping in is def the best part of WFH. Do you have any kind of IM or video call software you can use to talk to people directly?

      1. Rincat*

        I do have IM, but everyone’s status is constantly set to “away” so I don’t know if they are actually there or just don’t want to be disturbed!

        My commute isn’t bad by itself, about 30 minutes, but I drop my daughter off at her sitters’ in the mornings so that stretches it out considerably. I miss the days when I could get up as late at 6:45 and still make it in by 7:30!

    2. Undine*

      It’s funny when things like that change. I was a freelancer for 10 years; now I’ve gone back full-time and I appreciate so much about it.

      Your situation is also hard right now because of all the craziness in Texas, even if you’re not directly affected. When something major has happened, a lot of people fall back on routine. Also, it can be good to be able to go into the office and touch base with everyone on the latest. You also haven’t planned ahead for this. So write your lack of productivity down to the general disruption and don’t assume this is a typical experience.

    3. Gina*

      I get so much more done when I WFH, since I don’t have people constantly stopping by my desk for picky little things. I think the office culture and the job itself both play a role in WFH efficacy, but the percentages probably slide around a lot!

      1. Rincat*

        That’s how it was at my last job – way too many people in my office who just wanted to chat all day, so I had constant interruptions. Not so at my new job! I think what’s really killing my productivity today is that my house is just messy and I’m being tempted to clean and do laundry…

    4. nonegiven*

      My son saw police trying clear cars from around a gas station so the tanker truck could get in. My nephew saw a line of cars following a tanker truck to a station.

  98. TGIFriday*

    A friend of mine who’s been out of work for a while recently applied to a position. Someone from that organization just requested to connect with me on LinkedIn. From his profile, it seems like he is the most recent holder of the position my friend applied to, who’s been promoted to be the boss of that position. We have no connections in common, we don’t work in the same field, and it seems like a maybe-logical assumption that he got to me through reviewing my friend’s application and checking his LinkedIn.

    I am desperate to reach out to this guy and ask him why he connected with me and “casually mention” that a friend is applying for a job at his organization. I know this is probably a terrible idea, but my friend is so smart and awesome and is having such a tough time on the job market for a variety of reasons, and I want to help! Bad idea, though, right?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Very bad idea! Don’t do that.

      Accept the connection request and see if he reaches out to you.

    2. CM*

      I don’t think it’s a terrible idea, but I also don’t think you can help your friend by reaching out. This person doesn’t know you, so anything you say about your friend won’t be very meaningful to them. And if all you say is, “my friend applied with you,” they already know that.

  99. Sarah*

    I interviewed for a job 3 and a half weeks ago. It’s pretty obvious I didn’t get it as I haven’t heard back at all. I followed up twice-once by email last week and a phone call this week. I have no idea what could have happened. Is this kind of thing common?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Sadly, yes. I think we’ve all experienced an interviewer or two who “ghosted” us about our candidacy. It always sucks, but try to put them out of your mind and let it be a pleasant surprise if they do happen to follow up!

    3. Fresh Faced*

      Yeah unfortunately. I’ve personally been “ghosted” at any and all points of the application process with no explanation, it doesn’t get any less rude.

    4. Floundering Mander*

      Honestly, with the exception of a company that I had worked with once before, I don’t think I have ever actually heard anything back from jobs I have not been successful at getting.

  100. AllDogsArePuppies*

    Am I breaking the “don’t gift up” workplace rule?

    My manager and I have bonded over our love of animals – especially my new kitty (I got a few months ago) and her dog that she’s had since before I started working her 16 or so months ago. We constantly text after work and on weekend pictures of our cute pets – in a way that is welcome to both of us and even.

    My first xmas here last year when I was only about 8 months in, one of my friends was having an Etsy sale on dog bandannas she made that I wanted to support. With no dog of my own, I bought one for her dog and gave it her to give him for Christmas. I also bought presents for pets of my best friend and my roommate at the time ‘s cats without getting gifts for the humans. My manager gave everyone one on the team baked goods as well as participating in secret santa.

    Since getting a pet of my own, I’ve been baking treats for her – and as the batches make more than one cat can eat, I’ve been sharing. Some of the treats are also suitable for dogs too and I’ve been preparing a baggy for her pup. I love animals and want to spoil them all – only asking for pictures in return.

    Is this okay? Or does it break the unspoken rules.

    1. fposte*

      It’s nice, but I’d dial it back. Can you drop the treats by the shelter, or just leave them in the breakroom with a note for whoever wants them? A continued stream of gifts, even homemade gifts for pets, directed only to a manager and only from one report, isn’t a good practice, especially if you genuinely are asking for pictures in return (which makes it about a relationship, not about just offloading extra treats).

      1. AllDogsArePuppies*

        I do share treats with other people with pets in my office! She is just the only one above me with pets (that I know of)

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      How would you feel if your boss loved golf, and one of your coworkers who also loved golf gave him golf-related presents? If that coworkers was promoted over others who didn’t share that common love of golf, the optics would be pretty bad.

      I think you’re in the same position here and your manager is doing you a disservice. There are hundreds of millions of people with pets who aren’t your boss to bond with over sharing cute pics and presents.

      1. PM Jesper Berg*

        “How would you feel if your boss loved golf, and one of your coworkers who also loved golf gave him golf-related presents? If that coworkers was promoted over others who didn’t share that common love of golf, the optics would be pretty bad.”

        The answer is that I’d be signing up for golf lessons.

        AllDogs has found a common interest with her boss. That’s a good thing. A dog bandana and some biscuits are basically de minimis in any event.

  101. administrative cog in the machine*

    Not using my real name for this…

    I work for a family owned business. It is not a small company (500+ employees at 4 locations…a main office and 3 smaller satellite ones). I’m an admin in the “head office” part of the company. I work directly for one of the grandsons of the company founder in his office. The family has a lot of money. He married a woman who isn’t from money. He cheated on her and was paying for the mistress/call girl to have an expensive apartment, a credit card, vacations etc. In his family this is completely acceptable and the woman look the other way. I find it gross but his own father has a known mistress and his mother completely ignores it.

    His wife is not having any of it. She moved out and filed for divorce. She has a job not related to the company and is working and supporting herself. In the divorce she doesn’t want money, alimony or anything from my boss. All she wants is the divorce. Our state still has fault divorce and she filed for that because she has proof of his cheating.

    Because I work in the part of the office where all his family members work, I have been hearing about it constantly because they talk about it in front of me like I am not even here. His lawyer and the lawyer he got a second opinion from say she will get the fault divorce. He cannot legally stop that or change it to no fault. Divorce records are pubic here (except in cases like domestic violence and such) so all the details of his cheating and his relationship with the mistress will be made public. He cannot stop that either. In the end, she will get the fault divorce and because she is self-sufficient and there are no kids she can walk away without anything else from him.

    Part of me is tired of heating about it, but most of me can’t help but smile on the inside because I know this is awful but my boss and his family are such jerks. My boss and his family cannot fathom that they can’t use their money to stop the fault divorce or the embarrassing details being made public, or that his soon to be ex-wife doesn’t want money in exchange for being a kept woman like the others in the family/who married into the family and doesn’t want money in exchange for the quiet divorce. It’s like a spoiled child being told no for the first time. I feel so bad that I am enjoying this just a little.

    (There hasn’t been any kind of violence or threats from them, if I heard any of that I would go to the police ASAP. His wife said openly in court she isn’t afraid of him because the judge wanted to make sure she wasn’t being harassed and both her and her lawyer said it wasn’t a concern and it would never happen.)

    1. Manders*

      When I worked for a family-run business, I used to pretend to be one of the maids from Downton Abbey. Calm and polite on the outside, secretly enjoying the juicy drama on the inside. I think we all enjoy a little schadenfreude now and then!

    2. Infinity Anon*

      While divorce is always awful, a part of me is happy when I hear a story like that where one spouse was awful and the other spouse was able to walk away and basically say “I don’t need this. I don’t need you or anything you have and I don’t owe you anything.”

  102. Manders*

    Sort of a personal question as well as a work question, but has anyone successfully kept a friendship with someone whose work schedule is opposite your own? I have a friend who’s a night owl and wants to hang out on week nights, but I have to get up before 7 am from work, and she’s not even interested in showing up before 9 pm. It’s even worse on the weekends–she’d like to be up til 5 am, while I’m conking out at 11 pm.

    She’s taken to showing up to things really, really late–sometimes less than an hour before I was planning to end the party and kick everyone out–and then getting disappointed that I’m not more energetic. I’m just exhausted! I’ve literally fallen asleep on her shoulder multiple times, but I’m having a hard time explaining to her what it feels like to be tired before midnight because of my work schedule.

    1. Infinity Anon*

      My sister has an opposite schedule as I do. One thing that works for us is to make it clear when we are available. I have told her that I cannot be available before 6pm because of work and she made it clear that she is not available after 8pm on work nights. If we want to do something during the week, those two hours are what we have, no trying to negotiate unless it is a really special event like a birthday. Weekends are easier because we can meet up for lunch or do something in the afternoon.
      It sounds like your problem is that your friend is expecting you to simply accommodate her schedule and won’t make equal effort in return. Since you know she comes to parties late, maybe you should tell her both the start and end time of the party. You can also plan more afternoon events. She does not need to understand why you are tired, just that you are tired. Make a firm boundary about what time you are done for the evening and stick to it.

    2. Jana*

      I work early mornings too. To be honest, it’s near impossible for me to get the energy to do much of anything after work. I want to be in my house and in my pajamas by 8PM. My only advice is just to have an honest conversation with her. Something like: “I really appreciate and enjoy the time we spend together. Due to my work schedule, I’m just really not available late at night. Can we work out some days and times that accommodate us both?”

    3. Mephyle*

      She is insisting on keeping on her schedule and only letting you into her life the little bit that you can intersect with her schedule, and then getting annoyed when you can’t do more.
      Would you do that to her? Would she put up with it? No and no. I mean, if you planned an activity together where you’d meet at 8 am on Saturday, and then you berated her when she flaked out or she showed up tired from 2 hours of sleep, then you’d be treating her the same way as she’s now treating you.
      In sum, it’s not a balanced friendship in terms of what you each are expecting of the other and what each of you is willing to give the other.

  103. Junior Dev*

    I got a written warning at work. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but the two main problems seem to be 1) my communication style is rubbing people the wrong way and 2) work quality and doing the correct things.

    1) I am concerned about because I have been struggling with depression–i’ve posted about this for months here–and it often takes all my energy to go in to work and be around people at all. I often come home after work and just lie in bed and cry. I don’t know where the energy is going to come from to be extra diplomatic. My best strategy at this point is just not to participate much in discussions because apparently the way I’ve been doing so offends people, and I don’t necessarily think they’re wrong but I’m panicking at the thought of trying to figure out how to interact in a way that people find acceptable. I don’t normally have trouble with this, I’m pretty empathetic and good at meeting people where they’re at, but for whatever reason this work environment has a culture I just rub the wrong way. And I’m exhausted and I don’t know where the energy and brain space is going to come from to do anything about any of this.

    2) I have some ideas on how to address–I’ve basically stopped doing any work not explicitly assigned to me–but some of it baffles me, they were referring in the meeting with me to stuff that as far as I remember did not happen the way they are describing it. And I don’t know if I should try to set the record straight or what. I’m scared there’s no way to talk about that that won’t come off as hostile or argumentative.

    It’s also a problem that there are no written standards for a bunch of this stuff. There’s no set of defined steps for how you’re supposed to test something before merging it. There’s no rules as to how you’re supposed to get approval for some things and not others. It’s all very informal and if people ignore my requests for code review I have to bug them to get feedback, which apparently people see as threatening or hostile. If I don’t get feedback I’m being irresponsible (or if I don’t get the kind of feedback I’m apparently supposed to just know is needed for some kinds of projects and not others). If I don’t merge enough code I’m not producing enough work. I feel like I can’t win.

    I’m sure you can think of a million ways the last paragraph shows I’m a terrible entitled jerk or something. I’m ranting because I’m scared and confused, not because I don’t want to take responsibility. I feel like I’m being punished for breaking rules I didn’t know existed and that other people break all the time. And the culture is such that I think I’d get ridiculed or told we don’t have time if I asked for those things to be written down.

    It’s hard enough to navigate all this in and of itself but I’m struggling with depression. I cry easily. I come to work late because I can’t sleep at night, I sleep through my alarm in the morning, and when I finally wake up I can’t convince myself to get out of bed and get ready for a job that makes me feel awful.

    But I’ve been here 9 months which is the longest I’ve had a job since graduating college and I would like to try and make it a year, and spend the next few months working on side projects and volunteering and hopefully doing some workshops and speaking gigs, to beef up my resume. That way when I’m in a place of applying to jobs–which I want to start doing in October or November–I’ll have more options and really get to look for a company that’s a good fit.

    Any advice on surviving the next few months at my job and not getting fired? I feel so overwhelmed but I know I have to step it up and really show I’m committed to fixing the issues they’ve identified if I’m going to be able to keep paying my bills here.

    1. NaoNao*

      If you don’t already read Captain Awkward, now might be the time to start. Specifically this thread:
      https://captainawkward.com/2013/02/16/450-how-to-tighten-up-your-game-at-work-when-youre-depressed/

      It seems like there’s two issues:
      1: This work culture is not structured enough for you
      2: The lack of structure at work is seeping into your whole life

      So, fixes:

      For work:
      Dial it back, as you have, to only the work you’ve been assigned.
      If you can find a “work buddy”, take them for a coffee and ask them if they can help you understand these unwritten rules
      For meetings where things are summarized and it doesn’t seem like what actually happened, unless you’re being called out or it’s going to affect you, try to let that go. If it does affect you, after the meeting, bring it up verbally with your boss.
      “Hey, Boss, I noticed that in the meeting, the notes mentioned I submitted 3 mergers. I actually submitted 50. What can I do to change the notes, if anything?”

      For the rest:
      Maybe take a reset day. Just spend the day in total self care. Do all your favorite stuff.
      Then when you come back, spend time observing. How do others ask questions or debate? What is the unspoken review process? What are your coworkers’ habits and what’s the best time to approach them with a review request?

      I think if I recall correctly, you wrote in a bit ago asking about tone in terms of code review, and it was something like “Why wouldn’t we just do x?” (Or something!) as a verbatim. I remember being like “mmmm that IS a bit brusque.”

      My solution to avoid sounding brusque is to suggest solutions or “what if we tried…” or “would it be possible to…” “what do you guys thing about…”

      If you’re a female-identified person, you’re in a terrible double bind, especially in tech. If you try to be sweet, empathetic, and connected you may come off as too girly/not competent. If you come in guns blazin’, you’re a “B”.

      It honestly sounds like this isn’t the job for you!

      1. Junior Dev*

        It really isn’t. Hence the searching. I want to find a workplace with other women devs next.

        I am aware of the Captain Awkward article but I don’t know where the energy to do all that stuff is going to come from. It took me an hour to convince myself to get out of bed this morning. My goal for bow is actually bathing and wearing clean clothes every day.

        I did think about laying out a week worth of outfits on Sunday as a way to avoid the problem of getting ready being overwhelming.

        1. NaoNao*

          One thing I do when I’m frazzled and over it is find something to look forward to. It can be simple as a Starbucks treat, a new outfit, or a weekly TV show that airs that day. I also get myself out of bed every day with this mantra “Lying in bed ruminating is not helping”. So I just sort of force it!

          Another short term solution might be Rescue Remedy at work (or relaxing tee, or herbs) or similar mood balancing herbal items (consult doc! etc). Rescue Remedy is *really great* for nerve wracking situations.

          If you’re in a state where it’s legal, can you use Recreational Substance Edibles to help you wind down at night, get a good night’s sleep and not have a hangover? I’m in a terrible stress loop right now due to 24/7 GERD (get GERD, wake up, have terrible sleep, be hungry all day because so tired, overeat, get GERD, rinse and repeat until a complete monster) and I found I was able to partly break the loop with a solid good night’s sleep with Help From Our Friend.

          Another thing that helped me is the idea that one doesn’t have to be “in the mood” or “up for it” to do stuff. This was a major “whoa” moment for me. Like, I don’t have to wait until I want to work out, write, or do other “I don’t wannnnnnna” stuff. If you can overcome your emotional resistance physically (like force yourself to start) often your mind will follow your body. Might help!

          Best of luck, I feel you!

          1. Junior Dev*

            Heh. I’ve been taking Ativan to sleep but it tends to make me sleep through my alarm. I’ve been meaning to make a batch of brownies with the Help from my Friend though, maybe that’s an alternative to try.

            Going to the hot tub on my lunch break has helped too.

            Since it’s a long weekend I’m going to try and do some stuff to plan for the coming week and I’ll add “plan something fun/relaxing for each day” to the list.

        2. JaneB*

          Another depressed person here. Laying out outfits, having good choices for breakfast and lunch ready packed (even if I don’t eat them at the “right” times), those sorts of things done at the weekend or in the evening when I feel less awful make mornings more bearable. And I adore my sunrise alarm clock, it definitely helps. Little things do add up…

    2. Camellia*

      You say, “…spend the next few months working on side projects and volunteering and hopefully doing some workshops and speaking gigs, to beef up my resume.”

      If you don’t have the energy for your 9 to 5 job how can you find the energy for these? Or do these activities give you energy?

      I ask because I’ve been there, too, with depression, and I mostly coped by cutting my life down to the essentials: 8 to 5 job, feed myself, clean clothes, clean dishes. So maybe thinking about trying to do these additional things is taking energy that you can’t spare right now.

      If these other activities GIVE you energy then, by all means, do them, but if not, maybe shift your focus to your current job until you get a better handle on that.

      I also you hope you are getting professional help with your depression.

      1. Junior Dev*

        It’s an irregular thing, and often I’ll be laying in bed at 7pm wanting something to distract me, or unable to sleep at night. I often use that time to work on side projects. But I often don’t have the energy to get to work on time in the morning. Also, regulating my interactions with people is a lot more challenging to me than doing purely technical tasks.

        So I will definitely prioritize work stuff over side stuff if I can–including stuff like laying out outfits and meal prep the night before–but the lack of energy doesn’t translate perfectly to all contexts.

    3. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Back in my first job, I also got a written warning when I was facing a hard time emotionally (not depression, I had an awful row with my then friends that ended in them blocking me creating a new Whatsapp group without me). If you are not entirely sure which rules you broke up, can you request to get them? I remember that one of the things my then manager told me was that I “wasn’t communicative enough”. Compared to whom? Compared to usual self, I was extremely talkative, but my manager was comparing to my other, more experienced coworkers.

    4. Triplestep*

      You’ve gotten some really good advice on the mental health issues (which obviously is thing one on your list to tackle) so I’ll just tell you my experience with my attempts at improving my communication style once it’s been identified as an issue.

      I grew up in NYC, raised in a Jewish family. We’re emotive, we’re sarcastic, we’re very black and white in our communication. After thirty years away from NYC, I’ve learned to couch this somewhat, but I still get the feedback about “tone” at work.

      It’s never been a thing I can say I’ve conquered. Once a person or organization decides they don’t like my communication style, I continue to get that feedback – often with no examples provided, or the same tired examples when I think I’ve improved since the example was new. It becomes my “brand”. (I don’t think that it helps that I am female, 50+, and above my ideal weight). When I check with co-workers (as I’m sometimes advised to do) I get “What? I love your communication style! So straightforward!” So I’ve come to the conclusion that other people’s managers hear me in meetings, then go to my manager with the issue. My manager provides the feedback to help me be more successful. I’ve had managers discuss it with me while professing that they themselves appreciate my communication style.

      Because you know you want to leave this job and you’re not looking for advancement there, I would do as you indicate: say less in meetings. Meetings are places where your communication style is on display. If you have a really good idea or question, bring it up later to your manager or peers. Yes, there are some phrasing changes you can make but with all the other stuff you’re dealing with, I would not put pressure on yourself to be able to come up with those on the fly. Use them when you’re having these post-meeting conversations. Devote your energy to listening, and making notes about what you may want to say later.

      Also know that these small changes are going to make your individual interactions better, and that will likely be noticed as an overall improvement in your ability to work with the team. But perception about communication style does not change, in my experience. I think that “style” is so much more than the words you say plus how or when you say them; but managers will always provide feedback as if changing those things will change people’s perception of our communication style. It’s more complicated than that.

      Hope this is helpful, and best of luck with everything. Please let us know how it’s going on some future Friday!

    5. only acting normal*

      Well, your comments don’t come across like anything that could “rub someone up the wrong way” and it’s harder to sound pleasant/easier to come across brusque in print than face-to-face. So take that as some reassurance. Also the fact that you don’t normally have a problem with this, suggests to me it’s them – or the culture of the workplace – rather than you.

      I read later in the thread that you’re a lone woman dev in an otherwise male workplace. Sounds suspiciously like you’re in the double-bind trap: no matter how you communicate it will be either “too passive” or “too aggressive” (I’ve been called both… for the same communication style, of course.). Given your current depression, changing your entire communication style to fit a mystery (likely unattainable) standard would probably take more emotional energy than you have to spend. Your suggested tactic of staying out of discussions might be the best self-protection in the circumstance while you’re planning your escape.

      As to how to survive. Prioritise your escape plan, for the sake of your sanity, it will give you a light at the end of the tunnel.
      If you have any allies there who *do* appreciate your work, focus on their feedback – it may or may not count with the people with power, but it will give you a positive point of reference when you’re feeling under fire.

      (My colleague was put on a PIP last year for “failure of communication” – I pointed out it was all due to *one* person who had the ear of her manager repeatedly complaining, not the dozen other people she was working with in the same capacity, and she’d been doing the job like this with no complaints for 40 years! Turns out she even had email chains proving the complainer was lying/scapegoating her about some of it. Didn’t make the PIP disappear, but she did manage to ride it out, and managed not to doubt or double-guess herself too much.)

      Good luck, hang in there.

  104. Gandalf the Nude*

    I was formally diagnosed with ADHD this morning, and I’m so relieved. When we went over my test results, it was like a perfect little microcosm of my life. And I have issues that I would not have guessed could link back to it, but everything we went over was just completely spot on. I’m just so glad that I finally know what the actual problem is and can address it now. I feel better about all of my work struggles, and maybe I can actually come back from the burn out I’ve been feeling for most of a year, and actually make some room for growth, just… it feels kind of dumb, but it just feels like there’s hope for everything now after staring down the barrel for so long.

    I start on medication tomorrow, and I’ll talk to my boss Tuesday, but right now I just want to bask in my new-found optimism.

    1. Lunchy*

      Fellow ADD-er here! It really is great once you know what’s been holding you back! I ran out of meds once and wasn’t able to get to my doctor in time for a new prescription (and no renewals because it’s a controlled substance), and my production took a nose dive. Once it was filled again, I was back in action. It really can work wonders for your performance!
      Best of luck to you!

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I’ve never been on a recurring medication before. Are there any pitfalls I should watch for to avoid that kind of accidental gap?

    2. Anon for this one*

      I can relate! I thought I was losing my mind right before I got an OCD diagnosis. It was such a relief to read over the symptoms and see my all the weird things that had been happening in my brain right there on paper. I remember almost literally thinking — “Oh man– I’m not going crazy, I just have a mental illness! Whew!” Hahaha. But the relief and the hope is real.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I keep thinking, “Oh, man, am I not lazy after all??” I kept waiting for the doctor to say that. Like, “No, you’re just lazy. Just get your shit together and stop wasting my time. Dang millennials.” But no, it’s legitimately just my brain!

    3. JulieBulie*

      I didn’t get diagnosed till I was 40.

      It was good to finally have answers to certain questions, and be able to move ahead with a treatment plan.

      On the other hand, I’ve also had to deal with some grief/bitterness/resentment about all the things that my undiagnosed ADD cost me. If this happens to you, don’t ruminate on it too much. Just think how good it is that you now have a way to deal with it!

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I’ve got answers to questions I didn’t even know to ask, which is even better! I’m glad you finally got the help you needed.

        Thank you for the heads up! I’ve struggled with those kinds of thoughts in the past, but I usually am able to put them to bed by looking at the things I have done and the people I’ve met and loved who I might not have if even one little thing had gone differently before. (I read “A Sound of Thunder” at a very formative time of life!)

    4. Arielle*

      Yes! I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult last year, and it was just such a relief to have everything suddenly make sense. I know that feeling you’re describing exactly. Best of luck!

    5. Gina*

      My spouse has severe ADD. Please know that you will probably have an adjustment period as the meds build up in your system–you won’t wake up in 24 hours a different person. Also, the pharmacy is a major PITA about not letting him have a single pill extra (because drug abuse is combatted by making non-abusers’ lives harder, apparently) so he has to call ahead weeks in advance to make sure they’ve ordered enough for when his script is called in. It’s infuriating, and limits his traveling. They often screw it up, he goes a couple of days without his meds, and it wreaks havoc on his body and his health.

      Also, several people I know with adult ADD need a very specific type of medication, so they are often fighting their insurance company about forcing a non-working generic on them. You may need to be diligent and explicit about a “brand medically necessary” designation.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Thank you for that perspective! I’ve never been on a regular medication before, so would not have known about that particular pharmacy issue. I’ve signed about three different forms making sure I know these are controlled substances. And I actually administer our health and supplemental prescription plan, so I’m thankfully well-equipped to deal with brand issues. Thanks also for that tip!

      2. JulieBulie*

        Yep, and the pharmacy may be more careful about filling your prescription “too early.” Or should I say, I found one pharmacist who was more strict than the law/insurance company requires, which caused me some grief. He wouldn’t fill the Rx until like the day before my last one ran out, and practically insinuated that I was a junkie for wanting to fill it sooner. Then there was a blizzard and I couldn’t pick it up the next day. Jerk. I didn’t go back to that place.

        1. JaneB*

          Glad you’re getting help, and also jealous – the more I read here & elsewhere the surer I am I’m ADD, but my GP and my counsellor both say adult ADD doesn’t exist (in the UK) so can’t get any pointers towards screening never mind help… sigh! Glad you’ve found an rnlightened medical team!

          1. JulieBulie*

            It wasn’t easy. My previous doctor (actually a nurse practitioner) said “I’ve seen lots of ADD, and that’s not what you look like.” Something like that. There is a lot of ignorance, not just socially but professionally.

            Don’t give up. Life is a lot easier when you don’t feel as though you’re doing everything with one hand tied behind your back.

    6. Another Anony*

      I’m another person who was diagnosed late in life and for whom the diagnosis was unexpected. When I was younger I sort of self-medicated by smoking. (I would have a cigarette and get in the mental zone.) But I was also able to make a mental effort and force myself to sit still and concentrate on what I was doing and produce good results. The thing was, it was so incredibly exhausting for me and for the longest time no one could figure out why. I thought that I was just one of those people who would have to go through life working harder than everyone else to get the same results. And yeah, the meds are a miracle.

    1. Emma*

      If you’re worried that it may be below what you want, I’d wait to ask until they pick you for an in person interview (since you’d presumably have to take off work/travel for that, and you probably don’t want to do that if it’s not in a range you’d consider).

    2. Infinity Anon*

      Maybe ask about the target salary range? Frame it as a “I want to make sure that we are in the same ballpark so that neither of us is wasting out time” type of thing. As Emma said, I would mainly do this if it affects the willingness to travel for a second interview.

      1. KatieKate*

        I was planning on asking about range and only at the end of the interview. I had an informal conversation with another member of the team who I knew and asked her about salary, and she recommended asking this interviewer.

        It would probably influence willingness, which is why I’m torn.

    3. DBG*

      Nay. Let them get to know you – and feel them out – before bringing up something that could sink your candidacylike salary. Alison probably has a slew of articles on this.

  106. Lunchy*

    Thanks to the people who replied to my post last week about having a great temp job, but the possibility of being offered an interview at a job I might not be as happy at.

    My contract got extended! I’m now with the company through the end of the year, and I’m sure by then I’ll be an old pro at my tasks and be able to secure a permanent position :)
    I almost cried! Such a great birthday present!

    Have a great Labor Day everyone!

  107. Nervous About This*

    So, I have a job interview this afternoon. It’s a skilled retail job, and because I have retail experience, I’d get paid a significant amount over minimum wage. Kind of surprised, because I screwed up the phone screen (insufficient research, and the phone screener could tell, because she recommended I do research before the second interview), and ran into a question I couldn’t answer (“Tell me a time you went above and beyond for a customer”). It’s not that I don’t do that, it’s that my last company’s corporate office and policies were so thoroughly dysfunctional and at odds with reality that “going above and beyond” almost always meant “putting my neck on the line and flagrantly violating corporate policy or OSHA regulations”. Can’t really say that in a job interview.

    This is why I hate finding retail jobs.
    I’m just hoping

    2. NaoNao*

      Good luck!! Retail is often a bit more easy going about being perfectly qualified because it can be a transitional job for many. Also they tend to care more about personality and how you present yourself (outgoing, upbeat, fun, friendly, etc) than your technical skills or exact qualifications.

      But you could perhaps use a colleague story (I helped so and so for a last minute project) or perhaps pivot to talking about how you connect with customers “Well, I was very restricted in my ability to move outside our regulated duties at Job X. But I can tell you my personal plan to connect with and serve customers to the best of my ability in this new job!” Something like that?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Tell me about a time you went above and beyond for a customer.”

      You could try something like this:
      In my former setting, I did not have a lot of wiggle room to do extraordinary things. But I can tell you some stories about times people smiled and said “hey, thanks”. [Insert brief stories here.]

      The problem with these questions is we want to give answers where we saved the world from destruction. Step back from that and think about an ordinary day where you did an extra step or two to help a customer or a cohort. Nothing wrong with stressing that your ability to add extras was extremely limited and you worked within the structure you were told to use.

  108. PoniezRUs*

    I have a weird situation. My boss who is a white male in his 40’s treats me, a younger ethnic female in her 20’s differently from my male teammates. This is a known thing. He does not give me critical feedback and will generally refrain from ever telling me I did something wrong. He cannot chit chat with me because I am not into sports or typical male stuff. I get along with him fine otherwise. I have a stronger personality than he does but I have a lot of respect for him. I can also tell he doesn’t like being alone with me but due to the nature of our work, he and I end up alone in the office working late into the evening sometimes. Sometimes I wear a shawl when I am in his office because I am so uncomfortable that he is uncomfortable. I can tell because he will sit farther away from me and keeps telling me I do not have to stay late to finish projects due that day that I am responsible for. He would rather finish them on his own!!

    Let me be clear, I have no issue working close with him or much care for anything else. My issue is that people know and talk about him treating me differently. It’s kind of a joke. One one hand, he gives me high profile projects and praises my work. On the other hand he retreats when I ask questions and doesn’t know how to be direct with me. I have definitely been excluded from lunches too.

    One of my male coworkers has a hunch that because of my age and ethnicity, he thinks he has to approach me differently. He is a man’s man in the stereotypical sense. I get the feeling he thinks women are delicate or something like that. My boss says I am strong willed and talented and thinks I do great. It’s nice I suppose. My issue that I need help with is, should I say something???? If so, what? How do women deal with these things and not break out into screams? I feel frustrated because I am just a person and want to be treated the same as anyone else.

    1. Snark*

      My feeling is that he’s overcorrecting for the potential race/gender/age issue and not feeling like he has an easy personal connection with you. Like, he wants to avoid making you feel singled out for being young, female, and of a different race, so he……singles you out for more careful, lenient treatment.

      My feeling is that you can gently call him on it in the moment. “Hey, bossman, you can tell me I screwed this up, it’s ok, I know I did.” “Yo, Bossman, I don’t bite, you can criticize my work honestly.” “Boss, you don’t need to spare my feelings, tell me what you’re thinking.” “Hey, boss, you don’t have to be uncomfortable with working late, I don’t bite.”

      1. Infinity Anon*

        He might think that he is being nice. Do you have any performance review meetings with him? That might be a good time to say that while you love your job and the opportunities you have been given there, you feel like the lack of critical feedback is preventing you from learning from your mistakes and developing your skills as much as possible. You can mention that you have noticed your coworkers getting much more critical feedback.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Someone commented here within the last few weeks that we telegraph to other people how we want to be treated. This is a good thing to keep in mind, because the chance of MISreads is very, very high. Your boss could totally be misreading the way you present. You may need to tell him that you expect A, B and C and you have no problem with these things.

      My boss and I are the same gender and similar heritage. I had to tell her that it was okay to leave me long notes of what she wanted me to do. I had to tell her that it was okay to put urgent matters on my keyboard so I would know this is her top priority. These are simple examples, we had other more complex things come up where I had to say, “It’s okay for you to do X. I like it when you tell me directly what is needed.”

      I am kind of smiling to myself because I am wondering if your boss also finds you intimidating because he thinks you are SUPER smart. I don’t pick up anywhere in your writing here that you are a show-off when it comes to intelligence. So this may not even apply to you at all. However, my husband got told to quit talking over people’s heads. He overwhelmed a few people that he met. He was just being himself BUT he did not look at his audience. He did not look at the person he was talking with to see if they were following or if they had the deer in the headlights look.
      Think of yourself as a boss and what would you do if you had this super smart employee that probably knew more about the work than you do? Again, this may not apply to your setting. I am only mentioning it because it seems like you are rocking the job and the boss might not be sure what to do with a super star. So you might have to encourage him, “Hey, thanks for assigning me X. I am really enjoying that work.” When he gets something right let him know from time to time.

  109. Purple snowdrop*

    I finished my counselling sessions this week and my counsellor suggested I consider going into that line of work in the future. Not gonna lie, I’ve considered it before, and in many ways I’d love to, but I think I’d also find it really hard.

    So, a) yay that someone thinks I’d be good at that job and b) anyone want to weigh in about what counselling is like from the “other side”?! If I was going to do it it wouldn’t be for at least 4-5 years I reckon but I’m still curious.

    I’m in England fwiw.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I have done some training in this but am not fully qualified. I strongly recommend you do not attempt to do this while going through a turbulent breakup. However, if you’d like to explore it, you should look at BACP or UKCP-accredited courses, or CPCAB counselling qualifications.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Sorry, hit send and realised you said it wouldn’t be for a few years!

      The training is expensive especially if you do psychotherapy (some counselling courses are covered by student loans). It’s very very hard, you have to work intensely hard on yourself, but it’s also brilliant. I stopped because I couldn’t afford the next stage and got a related job that I’m happy in so I don’t plan to continue any time soon but any training of this ilk is really really useful in so many ways.

      That said, jobs are few and far between. You need to do hundreds of hours of unpaid or low paid work to get accredited and then you’ll most likely need to be self employed in private practice possibly mixing in other stuff like EAP work.

      UKCP accredited courses require you to be in your own therapy. BACP don’t officially but most courses will require it. Beware of those that don’t.

      Check out therapytoday dot net also.

      Book recommendation: The Making of a Therapist by Louis Cozolino.

    3. Sunshine Brite*

      Social worker here. You need to be solid yourself because when the person you’re counseling is there then you need to be fully present. That’s hard if you’re having an off day and someone is falling apart in front of you. Plus, some former patient turned therapists I know relate too fully with some people’s stories and see it as ‘the same’ when it’s clearly not. So being super self aware is important too.

    4. Purple snowdrop*

      Thanks guys, thanks as always for the links Ramona, you always seem to have good links for me! :) Lots to think about. I might never do it but I’d like it to be a decision if that’s the case, not just because I never get round to exploring it.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        You could also look for an introduction to counselling skills course, they’re usually about 6 weeks at local FE colleges and a great way of getting a taster.

        Sorry if I sounded discouraging! It’s absolutely worth exploring if you’d like to :)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      It’s been my observation that anything in human services can be very draining. And this is because of the staggering amount of human suffering that is out there.

      If you are going to work in this field, please consider how you will recharge yourself. You will need to have a regular plan to recharge, the draining is almost constant.

  110. Fishcakes*

    How do you guys deal with being corrected about your “tone” in emails? This happens to me every now and then, and it always makes me angry. I was mostly recently scolded by someone for an e-mail like the following:

    “Good morning Jon!
    Unfortunately I can no longer log-in to the Stark Enterprises account. Manager Arya wants me to have the Stark data by the end of the week. Can you please let me know if I’ll be able to log-in by then?

    Best,
    Fishcakes”

    FYI this guy, of course, responds to my emails with one word. But *I’m* the one with a “tone.” At other workplaces I have been criticized for wishing people a happy afternoon, not seeming “bubbly” enough, etc. etc.

    1. Long time lurker*

      Who talked to you about tone? Was it your manager? Did they say anything more specific, like what the issue with the tone in this email was?

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That was “too blunt”? For real? Wow. I don’t generally jump to such things, but let me guess: you’re a woman and they want you to “soften your tone”? Good grief.

          “Jon– I can’t log in to this account and I need to get it done by the end of the week. Please fix this.” THAT would be blunt, and even then, I know I wouldn’t mind. Regardless, I’d ask for specifics on this one, and play kind of dumb. “Oh, I didn’t realize that was blunt, I’m sorry! Can you offer any suggestions that I can use for my emails?”

    2. fposte*

      If it was just the one email, I’d write him off as a crank, but it sounds like this might be one of a collection of data points, which means he could be using the email as an excuse to express frustrations about other interactions. Have you had managers counterbalance that input with an assurance that your communication is friendly and fine?

      Most of us occasionally step on toes in our work life, but some of us can over do it; it can be a challenge to find out where we are on that continuum.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I’m missing the tone too. Maybe they expect you to pile on some “sorry to bother you” or close with “thanks,” but I don’t think there’s anything off-putting about this at all.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Ask him for examples. Tell him you are willing work at it.

      I bet he cannot come up with an example.

    7. mreasy*

      Left my most recent exec role because I was continually getting feedback like, “you’re doing an amazing job and changing everything for this company but” blah blah blah tone – and my communication style is similarly to the point but kind, like your example. It’s garbage and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it. If you’re a woman, it’s par for the damn course and it’s infuriating.

    8. only acting normal*

      Nothing wrong with that email: polite, professional, pleasant even. I’m guessing you’re a woman and he’s expecting lots of ‘sorry to bother you’ and ‘ever so grateful’ and ‘thank you so much’.

      Part of me wants you to complain to management about his one word answers >:-P… but that’s not helpful, nor what you asked.

      You could get around it the easy way by being hideously obsequious in your emails to him, adding all that performative niceness he wants. I wouldn’t change your style for anyone else though, it’s fine.
      NB Never leave his address in the To/CC/BCC fields if you type out the email you’d really like to send him. ;-)

      Some times I deal with it by acting like I don’t understand what they’re on about, asking for them to explain – then being even more perplexed if they try to explain themselves. Advanced manoeuvres include throwing in a piece of research that shows women are expected to do this more than men, and punished if they don’t – only for the right audience though.
      Most frequently I deal by grumbling to the nearest friendly feminist.
      But if someone tells me I’m not bubbly enough, well they’re getting the death-stare. I do not do bubbly. The closest I get on a good day is goofy, perhaps delightful at a stretch… never ever bubbly.

  111. Long time lurker*

    Ahem. *rolls out parchment*

    1) Does anyone have tips on writing cover letters when you’ve been working full time for less than a year? (Yes, I know that it’s usually a horrible idea to stay at a job for such a short time but I have my reasons.) I’m having trouble thinking of things to include that don’t just repeat my resume, since my resume already has my main accomplishments.
    Right now, it feels like my excitement for the role is a substantial part of my cover letters. I worry this focuses too much on why I want the job rather than why an employer would want to hire me.

    2) Women with flat feet or women who find that 99% of standard heels are painful: What do you guys do when you’re working somewhere that business professional attire is expected? Boots work when it’s cold out, but what about when its, say, summer?

    3) How do people break into a new field or a manager role at a young age? In both cases, it seems like employers want at least some sort of basic, directly related experience, judging from job postings. I was surprised to see comments saying people were managers before 26 on yesterday’s post. Am I just off base in the way I see employer expectations?

    4) How do I screen for a job with lower or more flexible working hours without looking lazy? It’s not like this is a must for me, but it’s definitely something I’d want to evaluate when I receive an offer.

    1. NaoNao*

      Shoes!!!
      I have foot issues (sob!!!) and while I’m in business casual, I do know that there’s a couple choices:

      Flats: pointed toe, solid color, painfully expensive, is the way to go. :) Madewell, J.Crew, or high end designer might work. Pair with trouser socks with slacks.

      For dresses, higher heels really do look better, so maybe a simple .5 wedge? I also see a couple women in my office wearing a cool hybrid sandal: a covered arch with open toes, and a slingback, on a stacked 1 inch or two inc heel. Could that work for casual days or Fridays?

      Wedges: Cole Haan makes great 1/5 or 2 inch wedges

      Special shoes for orthotics or friendly to picky feet:
      Tsubo makes cool, sturdy, orthotic friendly shoes
      Gentle Souls (you’ll gasp at the prices, but worth every penny)
      Clarks
      Born

      1. long time lurker*

        Flats are even worse than heels sadly. :( I can’t wear pumps. Sandals, yes, but that doesn’t help with business dress code.

    2. Anecdata*

      1) You still have skills & experience to offer – that’s why they’re hiring ! (even with entry level positions) – so don’t sell yourself short. But for the “Why I’m excited about the role” part, I would focus on specifically what excites you about /this/ role at /this/ company – which will get them imagining someone doing all that in /this/ role. Plus, who doesn’t like to read about why their team/company is awesome. This is very different from the kind of “Why I’m excited about the role” cover letter that is about what /you/ will gain in the role (which is wisely avoided, as it sounds like you know!).

      2) You can wear business professional flats! I do for interviews & conferences. Any of the pictures here on Corporette (http://corporette.com/interview-flats/) give a good idea of what to look for – and then you can look for similarly styled but WAY more reasonably priced options (I’ve had good luck with DSW).

      3) Managing interns / co-op students was how I started managing (w 1 year full time experience @ age 23)

      4) Especially since it’s not an absolute must for you, just apply! Ask about it during later round interviews (What’s the work culture like here? How do you all handle “crunch time” here? What are core working hours / expected working hours?). Also consider checking out glassdoor for larger companies.

    3. Fresh Faced*

      As a woman with flat feet I’m going to second NaoNao’s tips, especially Clarks shoes because their heels tend to have gripped soles.( In addition to heels being painful I’ve found the lack of grip on them causes me to slip and skid on most surfaces which recks my confidence when walking and causes me to alter my walking in a way that causes even more pain.) Wedges and low flat heels are my friend and I’ll pay the extra for shoes that have cloud/foam insoles built in. If all fails and you have to wear heels that are a pain if you have a dedicated place to put them (desk, car, office) I’d have some backup comfort shoes you can slip on in your down time so you don’t have to go all day in one pair.

      1. only acting normal*

        Love Clarks shoes! Comfy, well made, not too expensive, and there’s always a few nice little stylish quirks in the collections. Look out for the ones with padded insoles and similar comforts.

        I wear lace-up brogues or similar when I want to be smart, even with skirts, although I mostly wear trouser suits. Alternative might be a smart loafer style. (Something like Clarks’ current “Netley” or “Keesha” or “Neenah” ranges). Generally with a more conservative skirt suit I’d go for a daintier style that cuts lower on the top of the foot.

        I might wear Mary-Janes, but I dress a bit quirky even when suited-up.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      2) I’m tall and I hate wearing heels as I like to be comfortable. I wear a lot of ballet pumps and other simple flats.

    5. Piano Girl*

      Shoes – sigh. I have flat, wide feet that need orthotics. I wear Munros, which you can buy at some Nordstroms. I also have a cute pair of Dansko sandals. They are both expensive brands, but at least they work. Good luck!!

  112. Gaia*

    Gah! I am so frustrated with a cousin of mine. She has been trying to get out of a dead end job for years but she is lacking some basic credentials due to a number of factors and her confidence is low so she has struggled. Well, happy days, she received an offer for a great job that would offer more pay, better hours, actual benefits and a path to get those credentials she needs! Yay!

    And then they told her it was contingent on a drug test. She lives in a state where pot is legal and she’d smoked about 3 weeks before (she’s a very casual user). So rather than approach this honestly (I understand why she didn’t) she tried to get away with using someone elses urine (first – gross) and got busted. Now the company is deciding what to do but it seems they’ll pull the offer. I explained it has become an integrity issue now whereas before they likely wouldn’t have even been concerned about the pot use (most companies up there test for much more serious drug use).

    I know she felt desperate but arghhhh.

    1. fposte*

      Holy crap. That is a big mistake to make. Yeah, I’d be really frustrated to be in your shoes too; hopefully she pulls it together for a new opportunity.

      1. Gaia*

        Yea. She tried, at first, to act righteously outraged that they’d dare test for pot in a legalized state but…you don’t respond to legitimate irritation of testing for legalized recreational use by engaging in fraud!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Pot is still illegal on the federal level and a lot of companies follow those guidelines (especially if they do federal government related work).

          Also, depending on the type of job, it could potentially be dangerous for someone to smoke pot before performing it (things like forklift operators come to mind).

    2. La Revancha*

      I’ve known many people who have used other people’s urine and gotten away with it. Never once has it failed for them. May I ask how your cousin got caught?

      It’s gross but if you don’t have clean urine then its the most effective way. A typical drug test for a normal company (meaning not security clearance or something crazy like that) will not check your bag or anything on you. They also will not watch you. You have to make sure the urine is fresh (testing for temperature is the first thing they do) and always good to go with someone that is the same gender as you (female urine can have blood in it).

      It’s just always a good idea if you’re job searching to not smoke weed, even if its legal. Many companies that are publicly traded still drug test.

      1. Hellanon*

        >> always good to go with someone that is the same gender as you

        Above the Law has cited several instances where (biologically-male) men got caught cheating because the urine test showed they were pregnant.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          But why are they even running pregnancy tests on these urine samples? Wouldn’t that be as potentially troublesome as asking job candidates if they’re pregnant?

          1. Clairels*

            Good point. Pregnancy is not something that will just “show up” on a drug screen; it is specific test that has to be performed, and why would they be performing it on a MAN? That actually makes me think that this is more of an urban myth than reality.

    3. Infinity Anon*

      If she is a casual user, there is actually a good chance that it wouldn’t have been detected 3 weeks later. That was a really bad call. Hopefully she learns from this.

    4. a non moose*

      A while there was a post in one of the open threads where someone was an everyday smoker in a state where it was completely illegal and didn’t offer diversion or probation for offenses, but jail time. They were selected for random drug testing at work for that afternoon. Multiple people posted giving advice as to how to cheat on a drug test and one person even offered them some clean urine. I was honestly shocked that no one called them out and that everyone else thought it was fine and encouraged him to cheat. I don’t think it should be illegal myself even though I don’t use but I couldn’t believe everyone was fine with that poster being offered clean urine and some people jumping all over themselves to give them advice as to how to cheat and get away with it.

      1. Gaia*

        I actually view the two situations differently. That poster was in a state where it was illegal and so there is a high chance they’d have been hit hard for testing positive. My cousin is in a state where it is legal and most employers wouldn’t care about a positive test but WILL care about trying to commit fraud.

      2. Kali*

        I remember seeing a post here a while ago, in which someone was invited to smoke weed on a work trip, in state where it wasn’t legal. She told the hotel, who called the police, and immediately left, raising it at work on Monday. It really surprised me how many commenters thought she was in the wrong for reporting her coworkers when they were in the process of comitting a crime. I’d be so concerned that I’d be fired or otherwise get into some kind of trouble if we were caught, that I’d also want to make it as clear as possible that I had nothing to do with it. Full disclosure; my father’s an abusive drug dealer, and the two are very bound together in my mind, so my reaction was always going to lean more towards “this is not okay”. Still, even taking that into account, it surprised how sure everyone was that there wouldn’t have been any backlash if she’d joined in.

  113. Naruto*

    While applying for jobs recently, both with the government and with big corporations, I’ve noticed a trend. Many of these organizations have online application systems. And in many of those, there is nowhere to upload a cover letter. It’s just a spot to upload a resume, and then some questions to answer or blanks to fill out.

    What’s the deal? Is this a thing now?

    And, should I try to get around that by uploading a cover letter along with the resume in the resume-upload tool? To be clear, I’m not talking about portals where you can upload multiple documents — obviously, a cover letter should be one in that situation. But I don’t know if this is something wonky with their platform or intentional.

    1. Emi.*

      USAJobs doesn’t do cover letters–that’s just a “federal hiring is different” thing, so it doesn’t say anything about a trend other places. For other places my instinct would be to include it with my resume, but I’m not sure. There’s a discussion in an earlier thread about whether cover letters are dead generally (no), and a couple hiring managers chimed in to say how it looks to them.

      1. Naruto*

        My state government doesn’t have a spot for cover letters in their application portal. So it’s not just USAJobs.

        I applied to in-house counsel jobs at a couple big corporations that also did not have anywhere for a cover letter. I just find it so perplexing!

      2. CG*

        USAJobs does do cover letters (and some postings ask for them!) – you add them as an attached document, and that’s one of the potential document types. Your cover letter won’t get you through the screening algorithm, but if you’re referred, it may get a hiring manager’s attention. I’ve heard mixed things. I don’t think they are AS required as they are in other spots, but putting a good cover letter up on USAJobs would never hurt you.

    2. Fabulous*

      When I’ve run into this issue in the past, I’ll usually combine the two into one document. Cover letter on the first page, then resume following.

      1. Naruto*

        That’s a good idea!

        Any hiring managers out there in this situation — it wouldn’t annoy you and cost me in the application process, would it?

  114. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    I had to give a presentation last week on open recruitments and how we are tracking them for various program areas. Rather than give information on one program area to other programs, I dummied up a mock tracking sheet, featuring the Division of Teapot Management, and hiring Teapot and Teakettle Designers. I knew you would all be proud. :)

  115. Coalea*

    I’ll be going to a conference next week where my task will be providing summaries of relevant presentations, along with my take on the strategic implications of these presentations, to my client. I have done this many times and feel pretty comfortable with it. I will be joined by my colleague, Fergus, who has much less experience with this type of work, and who has a history of underperforming in general. I am senior to him but I am not his manager. If his work product turns out to be substandard (as I anticipate), should I step in and fix it? Or should I take the approach that Fergus is an adult and should be responsible for his own work product? My workload will already be heavy, so I’m not anxious to take on additional tasks – but at the same time I want to protect our reputation with the client. Thoughts?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I definitely don’t think you should fix it for him. Is there an opportunity to see his work before the client, and send it back with feedback or input that doesn’t require a ton of your time?

      1. Coalea*

        I will see it before client, but there probably won’t be enough time for me to review and him to revise. We’ll have to see…

  116. Fresh Faced*

    Asking for some advice on this situation for those that are familiar with recruiters. Recruiter X reached out to me following an application ( I applied to a job via Indeed which X posted on behalf of the company) afterwards I received a quick phone call about my situation, experience, if i was willing to relocate etc. Fairly standard. Now I’m being asked to provide a word document CV with my contact details omitted. This is where I have an issue. Whenever I’ve worked with recruiters they’ve been fine with my PDF CV except in one case where I ended up going to an interview to a company that had received a heavily edited version of my CV (they’re the main reason I switched to PDFs). My work is in a creative field and I have an online portfolio of work which features my contact details, because of this the previous requiter deleted that from my CV amongst other things and I was stuck unprepared in a interviewer where they had not seen my work at all (and if they had would have probably seen that I was not a good fit for their studio.)

    My question is, how do I word in a polite email that I’d rather not have my CV edited past my contact details and formatting, how do I ensure that they don’t scrub my portfolio link when passing my CV off to companies?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      As a recruiter, I usually ask for resumes as Word docs so I can remove the contact info, but if you sent me a PDF that only had your name, I’d be fine with it. In fact, it would save me time!

      We do add our company logo in lieu of the contact information so they know who to call to follow up, but that can easily be done with a PDF.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Hi Recruiter,

      I’m more than happy to provide you with a Word version of my CV. I’d just like to clarify, however, that only my contact details will be removed, correct? I’d strongly prefer that, other than my contact details, my CV is sent out as-is.

      Thank you so much!

      Best,
      Fresh Faced

      1. Fresh Faced*

        Thank you both! Inspector Spacetime your script was perfect. I sent off an email and they verified that they only wanted to remove contact information and my CV/Portfolio will remain untouched.

  117. Margali*

    Anyone interested in helping me with a job description? Happy to hear any suggestions.
    Program Support Specialist
    [Company] is hiring a Program Support Specialist to assist the VP of Engineering and Program Managers with their project work. This position will give you the opportunity to immerse yourself in the process of project management, taking on a variety of tasks from project initiation through maintenance and completion. (See below for specifics.) A successful Program Support Specialist will be extremely organized and detail oriented, eager to work with multiple teams and with multiple simultaneous projects, and passionate about continual improvement of both their own skills and of [company’s] project management process. This position offers you the opportunity to move into Project Management at a company that searches for and values people who want to grow with a company long-term.

    Responsibilities
    • Support Project Management by creating and maintaining schedules and program documents such as risk assessments, monthly customer reports and document packages for customer review meetings
    • Support Project Management with the creation and completion of final reports based on test data, and by managing requests for document packages and other program deliverables
    • Support Project and System Engineers in the creation and review of bluebook documents (routers and checklists)
    • Work with Supply Chain and key suppliers to keep programs updated and mitigate the effect of materials shortages
    • Follow up with engineers to complete open non-conformance and problem reports
    • Support our shipping and repair process by ensuring that problem documentation is completed for units being returned to our facility and for units shipping from our facility.
    • Be aware of opportunities for improvement in all processes, and be willing and eager to ask questions and to state supported opinions

    Requirements and Skills
    • At least 1-2 years of managing projects or people (can be from previous employment, or volunteer work, hobbies, college project teams etc.)
    • Proficiency with Microsoft Office Suite (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)
    • Ability to communicate clearly in both written and spoken English
    • Must be HIGHLY organized , self-directed and thorough

    Experience/Education
    • Junior College or College Degree with technical background, such as an AA or BS in Engineering or a degree from a trade school

    1. Camellia*

      I read a lot of job descriptions and I just can’t resist telling you what goes through my mind when I read this and how I interpret it.

      creating and maintaining schedules and program documents
      – Type up the schedule and type other documents
      creation and completion of final reports based on test data
      – Type up the reports
      managing requests for document packages and other program deliverables
      – When someone asks you for documents, deliver them
      creation and review of bluebook documents (routers and checklists)
      – Type up the checklists and make sure everything is checked off
      keep programs updated and mitigate the effect of materials shortages
      – Order supplies
      complete open non-conformance and problem reports
      – Finish the stuff I don’t want to
      ensuring that problem documentation is completed
      – Finish typing up the documents
      be willing and eager to ask questions
      – Bring your best excited-school-girl impression with you
      and to state supported opinions
      – Feel free to agree with me

    2. gwal*

      I’ve never seen the educational requirement for a position written as broadly as this (“Junior College or College Degree with technical background, such as an AA or BS in Engineering or a degree from a trade school”). Those seem like widely differing educational experiences–would you be willing to narrow it down a bit? Or identify whether more education comes with more responsibility/different title in some way? Or distinguish what skills would be preferred? I just think that, for example, a person with a BS in computer engineering vs a BS in operations engineering OR a person with a trade school certificate in IT systems vs a person with a trade school certificate in engineering management technology would be super-variable technical skill sets. If you’re considering all four of these individuals equally qualified for equivalent responsibility, is the educational requirement actually just a rubber stamp?

      1. gwal*

        plus the required skills you’ve listed don’t require any of the educational types you’ve listed. maybe put some more specific technical skills expected in that section, as well.

    3. Margali*

      Thanks for the replies so far! I did get some feedback elsewhere on that educational part, and will be reworking it. Our company does design and manufacture of those designs, and so the VP is looking for someone with some technical background. She was thinking she might get someone who got a degree in engineering, but who realized in the process of doing so that they would rather work more toward project management than the nitty-gritty engineering. Camellia, you made me laugh, but I’ll see what I can do. The VP does want someone who will *create* the reports, not just transcribe/type other people’s notes. I do like this VP a lot, and she is hoping to find and train someone in project management, and she’s not looking for a yes-man/woman.

  118. Life Changing Magic*

    I was laid off a few months ago and am job hunting at the moment. I’m thinking of looking at temp work to fill in the gaps, but I know nothing about how all that works. Some questions:

    – Is there a difference between temp agencies, recruiting firms, and headhunters?
    – What should I consider and look for in a temp firm? I live in a major US metro area so there are a lot of options.
    – Any pros/cons, tips, or ideas about how to navigate through this?

    Thanks!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      In my experience, recruiting firms and headhunters tend to work on permanent placements, whereas temp agencies can work on permanent placements but also do temporary/seasonal/short term assignments.

      Never ever ever sign up with an agency that makes you pay a fee. Reputable services charge the clients, not the job seekers.

    2. k.k*

      I briefly used a temp firm a few years back and it wasn’t a great experience. My biggest piece of advice is to be very clear with them on expectations of what you can/will do. For me, I told them up front that I could only do part time because I was actively looking for a permanent job, and would need time open if I should get an interview. They put me in a full time position, insisting it would be fine, and then got pissed at me when I needed time off to go to an interview. I don’t know if I didn’t make myself clear enough to them or if they just sucked, but that type of situation is something to avoid.

  119. Emi.*

    What’s the etiquette when a check from a client bounces? In this case the “client” is someone from my church whose kid I was tutoring last semester. What should I say to her? I did deposit the check obnoxiously late, so I should include an apology for that, right?

    2. fposte*

      Are we talking January or June here, and did you just deposit the check this week? I’d say June or later is a very mild “sorry about the delay” but with a much firmer “you owe me money.” If it’s January I’d probably eat it as my own fault. In between the two would depend on likelihood of future custom, how often you see these people, how much money it is, etc., but I’d go with a “I’m sorry–it looks like the delay caused problems with the source account. Could you reissue the check?”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I think you need to eat the cost. That’s a really long time to hold on to a personal check.

        1. Rick Tq*

          > 6 months is a stale check and the FTC gives banks the right to reject it.

          I’d just take it as a lesson learned and move on.

  120. anon for this*

    just had the following exchange with a guy who walked into my temp agency

    Guy: I have my social security card and ID.
    Me: Oh, great, what’s your name? (thinking he came in to register but didn’t have those documents so we just needed to do an I9)
    Guy: *gives me name*
    Me: I don’t see you in the system, when did you come in?
    Guy: Just give me an application
    Me: I’m sorry, we don’t have any appointments available today. I can schedule you to come in next week.
    Guy: That’s some g@y f@ggot bull$hit, I’m leaving.

    Guess who is never getting a job here now

        1. anon for this*

          I was too dumbfounded to say anything.

          I did send an email to our entire staff with his name so that no one schedules him.

        2. Gaia*

          Years ago I had a job in retail that often attracted many young, immature workers (not retail in general, this job specifically) and it was in a region that was … not known for being friendly or accepting of people in the LGBTQ community (or anyone in the non-white-conservative Christian-middle class community, but I digress). One day this particularly irritating coworker said that he thought the new shirt we had was “gay.”

          I turned to him with a perfectly straight face and said

          “you think the shirt is homosexual? Why?”
          Him: “Nah, you know, gay like dumb”
          Me: “You think the shirt is homosexual. As in it has a gender and is attracted sexually to shirts of the same gender?”
          Him: “Nevermind!”

          This is the same kid that liked to say that we were “jewing” customers so he was a real sweet heart. I enjoyed pulling a similar response to all of his ugly little bigoted comments. It really seemed to rile him up that I wouldn’t just play along.

  121. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve spent the week at a customer site teaching a training class for the software my company makes. The person who had been handling the training got fired a couple weeks ago, so my boss asked me to pick up the slack. I was SO stressed out before it started. The person who got fired never had any training materials prepared (which is probably part of the reason he got the boot). The software we make is really cool, but it’s very complex and there’s a considerable learning curve involved. I spent all of last week creating some quick reference sheets, a getting started guide, a couple “cheat sheets” and a couple of classroom exercises. I was working all the way up until I had to leave for the airport on Sunday morning — really down to the wire. And I was so stressed out that I completely forgot about the birthday party for my daughter’s best friend, and I ended up taking her over there an hour late. So on top of everything else, I felt like a really crappy mom and a crappy friend (since I’m good friends with her friend’s mom). That stuff is really important to kids, and important to their parents too. Ugh. I really worked myself up about it, which I have a bad habit of doing. The last person to lead training got fired, which was in my head. Plus, customers spend a lot of money on training, so it’s important that they feel like they’re not wasting their time and money.

    Overall, it’s gone pretty well. We were a full day ahead of schedule by the end of Wednesday, so everyone had all day yesterday and today to work with their software on their own. Plus, one of the training attendees is very technical and super-duper smart, and all of this stuff has really clicked with him and he totally gets it. He probably gets some of the more technical stuff better than I do! I’m happy about that because he’ll be able to be the champion for it after we’re gone. We’re wrapping up in another hour or 2, and I’ll breathe a huge sigh of relief when we’re done. Then I’m staying through the weekend to meet up with some friends, which I’d had planned for a few months. So the timing worked out well. My poor husband got the short end of the stick though, since he’s home on single dad duty.

    I whined about this in the thread about the parsimonious travel expense thread yesterday, but I’m still so horrified I have to bring it up again. I’m attending a trade show in San Francisco in October with 2 of my co-workers (one guy, one woman). We’re kind of registering at the last minute so it’s too late to get any kind of block or discount at any of the hotels, which are outrageously priced to begin with. Someone suggested sharing an Airbnb, which I thought was a good idea, because paying $600 for a hotel room is ridiculous. At the time, we were talking about a 3 bed/3 bath place. I got the link for the rental yesterday and now it’s a 3 bed/1 bath place. ONE BATHROOM. I’m so horrified. ONE BATHROOM.

    I realize it could be worse — I’ve read some appalling stories about work travel just on this site, but I really value my privacy, plus, there is such a thing as being too up close and personal with your co-workers. The one guy going has been good friends with the CEO for many years, and the other woman attending is the CEO’s daughter. The person who made the reservation is the CEO’s other daughter, who just turned 21 a few months ago. Since they’re all family/close friends, I think it didn’t even dawn on her that it would be weird for me, the relative outsider, as I haven’t even been with the company for a year yet. But still. ONE BATHROOM.

  122. Buffy Summers*

    So, I’ve noticed that much of Alison’s advise to managers assumes that the manager has the authority to do the things she suggests. How do you manage when you really have no authority to do anything?
    I’m a “Director” but I have found in the three years I’ve been with my org, that I really have no autonomy. My manager, the ED, wants her hands in everything from emails I send to my direct report’s performance evaluation. And it’s not just me, she wants that from the other directors as well.
    I was hoping that this position would be one where I could become a first-time manager and really learn the ropes and have the authority to implement changes within the organization and be trusted to manage my department as I saw fit, within our policies and procedures of course, but I feel like I can’t make a move at all unless I have her “ok”.
    I am so ready to move on from this position but I don’t feel like I’ve gained the experience I really wanted and needed to make an upward move. My official title is Finance Director, but I feel like a glorified Bookkeeper. It’s so frustrating and I have no idea where to even start with a resume update and job search. I feel unqualified for any positions with equivalent or better titles.
    Also, as it turns out, this week I’m rather whiny.

    1. Gee Gee*

      Tell the Council Of Watchers to back off! THEY need YOU, not the other way around. They need to tell you what they know about this hell god, and then get out of your way.

      (I have no real ideas. You just sounded like you needed a smile.)

    2. Naruto*

      I hate to say this, but I think that if you don’t have the authority to manage, you pretty much can’t.

      Now, if your boss is just a control freak but you haven’t explicitly been told that you don’t have the authority to do the things you want to do, you could try just doing them. Sometimes it “feels like” you can’t do things when, if you did, it would be okay. Of course, there’s a risk that you’re really not supposed to do these things, and you’ll get in trouble (even fired) if you do, so you have to be able to weigh that risk.

      If you don’t have any authority, you can’t manage people. You can only ask them to do things that they don’t have to do.

    3. Student*

      You can:
      (1) Accept that you don’t have the tools to manage, and the only managing you can do is through bluffs.
      (2) Push back with your manager. Tell her you need her to either delegate you some authority if she wants you to have all the responsibility, or she needs to take on the full responsibility if she is keeping all the authority needed to execute.
      (3) Find a different job where you can be a real manager instead of a shadow manager.

    4. Anonymous for this*

      “My official title is Finance Director, but I feel like a glorified Bookkeeper.”

      @Buffy, I sympathize. I am general counsel at an investment management company that works in emerging markets. I feel like a glorified paralegal. I have no budget to work with. I have no say in which outside law firms we engage; entry-level analysts get to pick them, and dump them in my lap. Advice I provide routinely gets ignored.

      My advice is that this falls into the “your organization sucks and isn’t going to change” bucket. Don’t feel unqualified for similar positions. Take what skills you’ve picked up and apply for positions that would represent a promotion for you. That’s what I’m in the process of doing.

  123. Business Travel Question*

    Yesterday’s business travel thread started me thinking about how to best handle my business travel going forward. I’m pretty new to business travel. I went from a non-exempt position that rarely required travel to an exempt position with a corporate American Express card that requires travel several times a year. I live and work on the East Coast, and my travel most often takes me to the West Coast, usually on a Friday and returning on the weekend.

    My company uses Concur in conjunction with a travel agency to book all employee travel. I’m required to book online through our travel portal. We’re supposed to choose the lowest cost airfare option that meets our business needs without regard to our preferred airline for frequent flyer miles. Options that are out of policy are flagged. If we choose to book it anyway, the company’s finance department and our manager are notified.

    I’m a Teapot Meetings Manager, and my business takes me to West Coast on a Friday to staff a Teapots Meeting on Saturday. By the time I finish working on Saturday, the only flights available to the East Coast on any airline are red eyes. Our travel policy is vague on whether employees should take red eye flights or stay over and travel the following morning. I asked our company’s travel manager who oversees all of this, and she gave me a non-answer. I don’t have a good relationship with my manager and would prefer not to ask her.

    Sometimes I’ve done the red eye, and sometimes I’ve stayed over until Sunday morning. Those who approve my expense reports don’t seem to care one way or another. For those of you who are seasoned travelers and savvy with this kind of thing, what would you suggest I do going forward?

    1. periwinkle*

      Use your best judgment? If you cannot get a clear answer from the travel manager, ask for clarification from whoever actually approves your expense reports. If that person doesn’t have an answer, ask someone in the company who does a lot of travel what she does in that situation.

      My manager approves my travel expenses (comes out of her budget); I’m expected to do what makes the most sense while staying compliant with the rules programmed into Concur. I’m on the West Coast and frequently travel to a midwestern city from which the post-6pm options are extremely limited. Staying overnight is the norm.

      Here’s a handy Concur tip… you can change the target time for departures and arrivals, and can also change the window (the default is 3 hours plus or minus your target time). If the only flights listed as compliant are terrible and the one you’d prefer is just a little out of range, tweak your target time/window to a narrower focus. Sometimes you can change that yellow to green! It’s been helpful for forcing the system to approve something considered non-compliant even though it’s only $15 more than the compliant flights, thus giving me that non-stop or preferred airline/layover connection. I learned this from my previous boss here!

    2. Naruto*

      If they aren’t telling you that you have to take the red eye back to avoid an extra night, I’d assume that you’re not required to. That doesn’t meet your business needs and isn’t a reasonable requirement to imply without a reason.

  124. Ruth (UK)*

    How many times do you think I can apply for a job at the same university? So far I’ve had two applications that resulted in an interview but not a job, and a third application that I only put in yesterday. These have all been in different departments, and all for an administrative role. For each of the interviews, I was interviewed by completely different people (and at the second, did not see anyone I’d seen at the first). I feel it bodes well that so far they seem to want to interview me at least… But not so well as they didn’t want to hire me. How many times do you think I can continue to apply there before I need to stop. Also, so far I’ve not applied more than once to the same department, but do you think it would be ok if I did, or perhaps if I did in the future but not yet?

    I feel like I can get away with continuing to apply for jobs that come up in a department I haven’t applied to yet, but would need to wait significantly longer to repeat apply within the same department. These are all fairly basic admin positions…

    1. caledonia*

      Are you getting any feedback (UK does do this)

      Before getting my current job, I applied at the university 3 other times and had another one outstanding. It depends on how large the uni is (mine is v big). Are all these jobs of interest to you? I found it hard to get a wide ranging job at a higher grade but now I’m in the job I’m in I can see why I didn’t get the other jobs I went for (I didn’t have the range of experience in relation to how many queries/people I’d be dealing with – I work in admissions).

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        I was given feeback on my interviews. They told me that my written application was strong but that in person, I did not seem confident in my ability/self/etc. I am trying to work on this and have a friend (who, in her job, has interviewed and hired people) who has offered to mock interview me based on the job descriptions of any other jobs I apply for. I do think I can write quite well, when I want to (plus, I did my degree in English), but I’m quite nervous at interviews. Basically, I am not struggling to get interviews (I’ve actually so far been interviewed for everything I’ve applied for, though I’ve been quite choosy about where I apply), but I struggle at the interview stage.

        Before my current job, I had a similar situation – my applications overwhelmingly resulted in an interview, but it took a fair few to get hired. (ps. I do only apply to jobs where I quite clearly meet all the points on the person spec).

        1. Anonymous for this*

          I’d suggest hiring a career coach for your mock interviews. You won’t get unbiased/forthright feedback from a friend.

    2. WG*

      I think you’re fine with continuing to apply to the same university for jobs you’re qualified for. As for ones in the same department, it would depend on how long between applications or if it’s a different job. As long as you’re not applying for the exact same job in the department too close together, you should be fine.

      In the US right now, many universities are dealing with lowering enrollment numbers and having to scale back expenses to compensate, such as hiring fewer staff. That can mean that there is more competition for fewer jobs. But if you are qualified and are getting interviews, keep applying (reasonably).

      I’ve worked at a university and sometimes seen a name that crops up in multiple searches over a few years. As long as it appears the person is applying for positions that are somewhat qualified for (and not taking a scattershot approach to apply for everything in sight), I never thought negatively about the candidate. In some ways, it can show a true interest in the industry and institution.

  125. Anecdata*

    What is a “normal” rate of turnover in your industry?

    I’m a few years into the workplace, and would really appreciate some data points about what is normal and what is the kind of extremely high turnover that could be a red flag/legitimate reason to give for leaving a job.

    On my end, I work in international development, and folks are probably averaging 1-1.5 year tenures.

    So:
    What is your industry?
    What is average turnover on your team / length of time folks have been there when they eventually leave?
    What is average turnover among your senior leadership (c-suite, VPs, country director types)

    1. NaoNao*

      Oh gosh.
      I’m in telecommunications broadly, and in training specifically (training development)
      For my company, people either leave within a year or two of their post, or stay literally their whole career. People at the C level or senior leadership stay a *long* time, but get bounced around jobs and orgs/departments a ton.

      Generally, there’s two paths for lower level employees
      2-5 years per job, leaving for more money or a greater scope of work at other similar companies
      Stay forever, making small incremental/lateral moves and taking retirement after 40 years

      For my team, our oldest tenured member was a contract employee for 3 years and a full time for 6, youngest is me, at just over 2 years. Most of us have been here between 3-6 years.

      The industry sees a lot of turnover.

      For me, anything about 50% a year is a huge red flag.
      Other red flags:
      Entire departments leaving
      Constant job hopping and shuffling of the senior management
      Hiring, promotion, and bonus freezes
      One specific role they can’t fill
      Turnover is constant—rather than it being a drib here, a drab there
      Turnover in response to something (we had droves of people leave within a year of being bought by a mega-corp)

  126. Lady Dedlock*

    I’m on the hiring committee for a new position that’s being added to my department, and my boss is being so indecisive about which of two candidates to choose. Every time I think we’ve come to a consensus on one, we seem to swing back to the middle. So, I have two questions:

    1. If you had to choose between (1) a candidate who has more experience and more formal training and (2) a candidate who lacks formal training/has fewer years of experience but has an equally good portfolio and arguably a broader skillset, who would you choose? (This is for a graphic design position at a small org where we all wear a lot of hats. Candidate 1 has 20 years graphic design experience, and Candidate 2 has 5 years graphic design experience as well as experience in other aspects of communications.)

    2. What strategies do you have for coping with an indecisive boss?

    I think part of why we’re stuck is that my boss is very risk-averse. He sees the more experienced candidate as the “safer” choice. My feeling, on the other hand, is that making what appears to be the safest choice is not always necessarily the best choice. We’ve been going around in circles on this, so I’d love to get an outside perspective.

    1. gwal*

      your wording in q1 makes me think you are leaning toward candidate 2! are you conscious of that preference?

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Yes. I think either of them would probably be great in the role, but I have a minor preference for Candidate 2. She has less experience overall but her recent work is more in our industry than the other candidate’s, so I’m guessing this job is more in line with where she wants to go with her career. Her references said she’s incredibly smart and picks up new skills quickly, so I’m less concerned than my boss is about her being a “risky” choice.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      It sounds like what you are dealing with is actually your boss preferring candidate 1 while you prefer candidate 2. If you felt that both would be good choices you could throw your support behind the “safer choice” and the decision would be made since that is your boss’ preference anyway.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        It’s tough, because I think both of us have mild preferences, and could be convinced to the other’s point of view. And there’s always going to be an element of uncertainty in hiring. If he had expressed a strong preference for Candidate 1, I could certainly get behind that. But he’s close to 50/50, and keeps having misgivings on each side.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Is there anything about your particular industry that would favor one over the other? That might be a deciding factor, such as if one has experience in nonprofit and you’re a nonprofit.

      If you need the person to handle multiple roles such as the social media, and some writing and marketing communications, Candidate 2 might make the better choice from a broader perspective if they’ve had that experience. Although Candidate 1 might also be able to handle this perfectly fine as well. I’m not getting a good sense here if Candidate 1 does more than just design or has the inclination to want to do more than design? But you should choose based on what the BULK OF THE WORK will be.

      Also, I wouldn’t just choose Candidate 2 because you think you might be able to get them cheaper. NOT SAYING YOU ARE… but sometimes that can be the impression when the terms “lack of formal training/fewer years of experience” is mentioned.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Thanks for the response. We’re in an academic setting, so a more academic background would be favorable. Candidate 2 seems to specialize in more academic clients, although she doesn’t have the subject-area background herself. And Candidate 1 has shown a wide range in clients and styles.

        Saving money is not really an issue; both candidates had salary expectations within our range, and we’re grant-funded, which means the money is budgeted for specific purposes and can’t easily be repurposed, so there’s not always an incentive to save money.

        The position itself is design + communication strategy as it relates to design (e.g., “do we have the right mix of publications?” and “how can we redesign our website to make it more engaging?”).

        Part of the issue for me is that I think their portfolios are equally good (I may even have a slight preference for Candidate 2’s). So, how much does it matter what process they used to get their results, or what training they’ve had? Maybe a better technical grounding would make Candidate 1 more adaptable to any challenge, but maybe not.

        Other complicating factors/sources of bias:
        – I’m going to be this person’s direct supervisor, not my boss.
        – Candidate 2 came off as warmer and more enthusiastic in her communications, whereas Candidate 1 is very reserved (which sort of mirrors the personalities of me and my boss: I like to shake things up, within reason, and he’s very cautious). I’m a little more put off by that reserve than my boss is.
        – Candidate 2 has the better website, and I’m the web manager at my org, so I might give that more weight than others on my team.
        – Candidate 2 reminds me more of me (recession-era grad who got a foot in the door in the editorial department and then took on more creative duties). I recognize that as a source of bias and have said as much to my boss.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          It sounds like Candidate 2 then, for all the reasons you’ve stated, and they are all valid.
          Even if you feel more of an “affinity” to Candidate 2 because of work styles/personality, it is a valid reason as you’re the person they will be working with.

          It sounds like both were close in skills, but for me: “We’re in an academic setting, so a more academic background would be favorable. Candidate 2 seems to specialize in more academic clients, although she doesn’t have the subject-area background herself.” This seems to clinch it with additional points in their favor.

    4. PM Jesper Berg*

      If you’re all wearing a lot of hats, definitely candidate (2), because she has a broader skill set.

  127. Writer*

    Two questions this week for my AAM fam:
    1) I just switched from a journalism job to content marketing for a small startup and while I love it, I’m fairly worried about my lack of experience. I’d love to find a mentor of some sort, but there’s no one at my organization. How can I find someone to build a mentor relationship with?
    2) I’m the only woman in my small (10 employees) office. It’s a tech bro culture. How responsible am I for shutting down some of the sexist behavior I see my coworkers exhibiting? Obviously, anything aimed at me I say “that’s not OK” or otherwise shut down, but what about the general stuff, like tampon jokes (ugh) and talking about Tinder dates in a demeaning manner? I don’t want to be the voice of all women, but as we look to scale I’d hate to look another woman in they eye in a few months and say, “sorry, I’ve been letting this happen.”

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is there a PRSA or IABC chapter in your area? They might be able to connect you with someone.

      As for #2…there’s a point where being the sole dissenting voice is going to get exhausting for you. I would do what you can for the particularly egregious remarks and let some of the more juvenile jokes slide. And if you’re able, you can also bring it up with your manager. Normally I’d say HR, but if you’re only 10 employees I doubt that’s an option.

    2. fposte*

      Answering only 2): I think they are responsible for being jackasses, not you. You are not “letting this happen,” they are doing it. You also are highly unlikely to be able to reform them all, so it’s not like if only you exerted yourself, they wouldn’t be embarrassing jackasses anymore.

      You really don’t owe it to all womanhood to fix your coworkers. We’ll be happy with whatever work you can do :-).

    3. Writer*

      Thanks everyone! The professional networks are a smart idea. As to #2, well, I guess it’s comforting to hear that it’s not all on me. My coworkers are generally great so I don’t want to be a party pooper. Glad to hear small comments here and there are an OK start.

  128. nutella fitzgerald*

    I’m interviewing candidates and one of them just asked the magic question. I think my heart grew a million sizes.

  129. AnonForThis*

    Until maybe 6 months ago, I had a peer at work who was a pretty cool guy interpersonally but a real frustration as a coworker (grated at change, had a hard time adapting to new systems, would require constant ‘reminding,’ was excessively lax with his poorly-performing team members, played favorites). He left… but his replacement is a whole new bundle of problems. He’s learned the new systems because we got rid of the old ones his predecessor clung to, but he’s very sloppy, he does even simple things extremely slowly, and he’s excessively talkative. He does really well with people-management, which is a step up from his predecessor for sure, but as his peer it is extremely frustrating that the only part of the job he seems to really be suited for is the part where he holds meetings and coaches employees, and all the rest of it is getting dropped left and right or delayed because he either can’t or won’t get to it. I feel bad being so frustrated by this because he is really nice–effusively so, sometimes over the top, but he’s clearly trying to get to know everyone. I just wish he’d try to get to know his actual work. I’ve tried to do what I can as his colleague to show him shortcuts and tips, and I’ve even offered assistance, but I also don’t want to end up shouldering his work on top of mine because he can’t figure it out.

    It’s to the point that I miss his predecessor! Agh.

  130. Teapot Librarian*

    I was listening to a recorded webinar this week about management and the speaker said this: “If somebody who reports to you made an agreement with you, it’s not your responsibility to check in with them on the status of that agreement; it’s their responsibility. That’s professionalism.” He said that checking in with a subordinate about an agreement that was made is micromanaging. What do you all think? At what point does it become appropriate to check in? When the deadline passes and you haven’t gotten what your employee agreed to get to you? What if the employee has a history of missing/ignoring deadlines, does the calculus change?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Meaning an agreement about work getting done? If so, that’s ridiculous. Good managers check in as work progresses and stay involved to make sure things are on track, offer input, course-correct if needed, and generally be a resource. Otherwise you significantly increase the chances that you’ll want major changes at the end, which is frustrating to everyone involved. Obviously you adjust what those check-ins look like based on the employee’s track record, seniority, experience level with the type of work, degree of difficulty, etc. But just delegating and disappearing is a terrible way to manage for the results you want.

  131. Gee Gee*

    I want to move from beginner to advanced with Adobe Illustrator, but I live in BFE and the Adobe-sponsored training sessions are too far away and too costly. Can anyone recommend a good self-guided learning program? Is Lynda dot com any good?

    1. Bored At Work*

      Lynda is great. IMO, for something like learning Adobe products, it’s also worth it to pay the extra for the exercise files.

    2. DBG*

      Lynda is great. Check with your local library- they may have access through a group license or something.

  132. Anon for this*

    I’ve been pretty miserable in my job for about the last 18 months. Basically: terrible management, long hours, high stress, emergency night work, poor workplace safety, little appreciation. All of this has had a huge negative impact on my physical and mental health. About 4 months ago I found out I was pregnant, the same week as I got offered a new job. I decided to stay put because awful as my job is, it has fantastic maternity benefits. I’m now halfway through my pregnancy and we’re gearing up for the busiest time of the year. I’m really struggling to keep up, keep motivated, and stop myself becoming a total wreck of anxiety and depression, which is bad for me and the baby. HR have been involved and not very helpful, although they have at least pulled me off nights. Any advice for how to get myself through the next few months?

    1. Durham Rose*

      Best way to get through is to think of your upcoming time off and do shopping/nesting stuff in preparation for baby’s arrival! Also whenever you get stressed just try to let it go, as you said it’s bad for the baby. I did this so many times while pregnant, my mantra was ‘Stress is bad for the baby’ and would just take some deep breaths put negative thoughts out of my mind. Think of it like smoking or drinking while pregnant, just something you are going to refrain from as much as you can for 9 months while nurturing this life. It can get you through! If you have a chance to take hypnobirthing classes or watch youtube videos, the breathing techniques can help you with stress management. Good luck!

    2. Ellie*

      I don’t have specific advice – sorry, my field is education! – but I would urge you to remember it’s all about YOU. The word ‘no’ should come up any time things are going to not be good for YOU. Make things as easy on yourself as you can, use those maternity benefits, then move on.

  133. Unofficial Manager*

    I have my first annual performance review coming up. Long story short, I’m overqualified for my job and am now doing way more than was on my job description. My salary is extremely low for what I’m actually doing, and my “assistant” title is going to hold me back from getting another job (I have been told this by people who hire in my industry).

    I basically created our Teapot Design department and have been unofficially in charge of it since I started. My boss has no experience or knowledge about what I do, but still frequently ruins things with her “input”. I want to ask to be officially put in charge of Teapot Design with the salary increase to match it. Even on the low end, this salary increase would be about $6,000 per year.

    Is that too much to ask for in my first annual review? I’m really not willing to stay here for another year making what I do now with the title that I have now.

    1. LiveAndLetDie*

      I think if you can present your accomplishments clearly and make an argument for yourself, you should at least be able to ask. Focus on the fact that you have been unofficially in charge of a department that you created yourself. Avoid saying anything like ‘my boss ruins things with her input’ obviously, and keep it factual (you may want to bring supplemental materials).

      However, if your boss doesn’t see it your way, are you prepared to leave the job to get something more in line with what you want to be doing and what your skills are?

    2. Sualah*

      I would say it’s worth asking, and–if the pay increase can’t happen (while I am not disagreeing that you deserve salary to go with pay), then if the title is going to hold you back, I would say you could at least ask for the title change, even without the pay. Then, when you go to job search, you will have the title that will help you get the pay you deserve.

  134. Non-academic with academic problems*

    I’m trying to figure out how to feel fulfilled in my career while it’s pretty much getting torpedoed by my partner’s. He’s got 2 more years of school to finish, then he’ll be doing postdocs so I’ll be moving for those, then wherever he gets a teaching job… we’re currently in a small town where I can’t find a job. So I’m unemployed now.

    I suspect I’ll find a job eventually, but in this small job market quite a few things don’t pay *that* much, and aren’t anything I’m super excited about. I can’t imagine ever being super excited about my job, but it’s even harder when he loves his research. I would consider going back to school, but I feel like that would just limit me more wherever we end up permanently, and I’d have to do it online. And I really would rather get a job. So I feel like he’s living his dream and I’m… going stagnant. Sigh. I’m tired of feeling like the stupid partner who can’t get a job while her boyfriend lives his PhD dreams. (note that he’s extremely kind and has never looked at it that way)

    Anyone have advice? I really need help ahhhh! Thanks for reading my ramble folks :)

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t have any specific advice, but boy do I understand, because I am almost there. My partner has two years left on his PhD and then… I have no idea where we will end up. I am itching to return to the Northeast, but I know that might not be a possibility, and it doesn’t help that he’s not very directed in his wishlist. I’m lucky that I’ve found jobs since we moved to this city, but it hasn’t been easy; I had a great career in a field that only exists in a couple of major cities, and while I moved down here with a job, it wasn’t the right one and it didn’t last. Going back to the work I really enjoyed would entail moving back to one of those major cities, and in his field, getting a good position there would be really tough since his school is respected but not top-of-the-line. My current job is pretty great, so I would be very open to keeping it wherever we move, but that isn’t a guaranteed thing. Mostly, for me, it’s a matter of really needing to be in a large city where I can thrive. So I might be in your position very soon.

      All I can say is this: is there a way to trade? As in, the next move, after the post-doc, is to a city where you can find work? Depending on his field, that might be tough, but would he be willing to narrow his search a bit? Another, relevant question: do you have/did you have an established field or career before his PhD? Or is it just a matter of finding any job?

      1. Non-academic with academic problems*

        I did have an established field or career, but I’m kind of hoping to move out of it. It tends to involve short-term project stints and moving, and even permanent positions aren’t extremely common. Plus it’s a little soul sucking.

        I feel like I have project management/supervisory/etc skills that are relevant beyond what I was doing, and in a way that is one of the benefits of a smaller town – I get more calls about things outside my field because they’d rather hire someone who already lives here.

        So it’s a matter of finding any job that I don’t feel like… honestly I want to feel like it’s something I would’ve done even if I was single. That could be a wide variety of things, but there’s so little to do here, and I hate to limit the options more in the future by going back to school. Particularly when my priority is living somewhere with mountains, not any particular job.

        The most annoying part – I intentionally chose not to be an academic because I didn’t want to deal with this nonsense! And now I’m stuck dealing with it anyway, without a fulfilling career. Blah.

        1. overeducated*

          I hear you! I actually got a PhD but didn’t go into academia because I didn’t want to move around for short term jobs and chase grants and tenure. We moved once for my husband’s postdoc, once for my current job that I hoped would turn permanent but won’t, and now it looks like we may well have to move again next year, potentially to a place without great prospects for me if he gets a tenure track job in the fall hiring cycle.

          It stinks to be so unsettled and I have no idea what my “career” is going to look like at this point – some days I feel like if I’d known I wouldn’t get stability and advancement more quickly than my friends in academia, I might have made different choices. I don’t have any advice, I’m just trying to muddle through and hope it all works out somehow in the long run. I hope the same for you.

          1. Snark*

            There’s a risk of instability and getting stalled anywhere, though. I will say that most of my peers who tried to stay in academia or related research institutions are having a LOT more trouble than I am getting funding, finding jobs, and finding security. I know more than a few who are on their third postdoc and making $45k. I know one whose funding has all dried up. It’s not a good time to be an academic.

            FWIW, I got a PhD, realized I was 100% done with academia, went into consulting and Fed contracting, and have enjoyed a lot of employment security, even though I’ve had to move around a lot.

            1. overeducated*

              Thanks for this perspective. I’m only two years out, so I’m basically comparing myself to the people I went to school with who got tenure track jobs after one year and wondering if they’ll have tenure while I’m still wandering around looking for something permanent. But it’s still early days, and there are others I graduated with who are are still seeking security as well, or living apart from their spouses, which is a deal-breaker for me. It’s definitely a horrible time to be seeking jobs or tenure based on how much funding you bring in, the statistics are just awful and things don’t look like they will get better over the next few years.

              I’m seriously starting to look into consulting and federal contracting since I’m in the DC area now. I’ve done a couple informational interviews and will ask my former consultant coworkers for contacts and advice when my term is closer to ending. The major thing I’m worried about there is work-life balance – I’m not interested in starting at a 75-100% overnight travel field position or working 60 hour weeks as the norm, which are things I am told are common (and the reason my coworkers are former consultants). I have to talk to more people to try to find out if it’s possible to find a more 40-45 hour, local travel only niche.

              1. gwal*

                yo I think we’re the same person (except I bailed on the PhD)

                spouse has one, wants to be an academic, we live in DC, I’m scared that will mean I have to find opportunities in some rando town

                i did work in technical consulting for a little while, and it seems not to be too crazy in the life-work balance dimension (boutique firm with a super clearly defined set of expertise, definitely not anything that has a big shiny office in Crystal City). that might be a good direction for you to look? if you make yourself very valuable in a small firm, they might be more willing/able to shift you remote if your spouse’s career takes a turn for the rural and/or random.

                1. overeducated*

                  Haha, we should hang out! There are actually probably quite a few of us in this town….

                  I’ll try to learn more about small firms, thanks. That’s good to know.

              2. Snark*

                Out of curiosity, what is your field? If you’re anywhere in the environmental, energy, professional services side of things, get in touch with me – astrobiologist at the google mail domain.

                If you’re worried about work life balance, I work for a Fed contractor doing environmental compliance stuff and I’m actually contractually limited to 40 hours, so that’s pretty rad. Consulting can be brutal, but I’ve found a nice spot.

                1. Belle di Vedremo*

                  Astrobiologist??? I’d love a description of what you do to have chosen that user name. Or maybe ask Alison if she’d like to do an interview?

          2. Non-academic with academic problems*

            It bothers me that I don’t know what my career will be, but it bothers me more that I’m applying for jobs that I know won’t fulfill me, don’t pay that much… I just hate feeling like I’m the stupid one who can’t get a job. I hate feeling worthless and stupid because all these people around me are getting PhDs while I can’t even get a job.

            I honestly don’t know what to do, it’s making my life miserable.

            1. overeducated*

              I’m so sorry!

              If it makes you feel better, one of the things I can look back on with hindsight is that while getting a PhD was very fulfilling in some ways at the time, a lot of the people I work with now were having equally valuable but different experiences in the workforce during those same years, and they were able to pivot and make transformations faster than me. I know people who finished entire graduate programs or medical residencies during the (relatively short) time I did my PhD, and people who moved from part-time or temp positions to salaried or even director-level positions in those same years. A ton happens in 2-4 years in your 20s or 30s! If you do figure out what you want to do, you might be able to make those transitions fairly quickly.

              Also, if you get an offer or think of a path that looks really good for you, you get to raise that with your partner too. It can be common for people in academic jobs to assume their spouses will just follow them around because their job searches have to be national, but actually, people in lots of other areas of work can’t just find a good job in any random town either! You could focus on an area with geographically widespread openings, like medicine or teaching, or you could just remember that there’s no rule that the person with the PhD gets priority unless you decide there is. If I get a good permanent offer in our current city before my spouse gets a tenure track offer…there are two of us in this relationship and we’re staying here for at least a few years.

              1. Non-academic with academic problems*

                I think the hard part is what to do right now – we’re 2 years away from moving, and he’s understanding about making a decision that is good for both of us then. But I can’t figure out how to feel good about things now. I want to feel like I’m moving forward with my life, too.

    2. BRR*

      This is always tough. I am/was in a similar situation. My husband was finishing his Phd when he moved with me for my job. We came to an agreement that I would move for his job if it wasn’t a short-term stint and I had to be reasonably ok with the location. This is how we balance both of our careers.

    3. Helpful*

      Sorry to hear that. I’m curious if you can get into some remote work, depending on the field you’re interested in pursuing. That way, you can pursue fulfilling work and be location-independent.

      1. Non-academic with academic problems*

        I would love to be able to work remotely! I just have no idea how to obtain remote work.

    4. Student*

      You two may not be career compatible. Long term relationships have a lot of factors in them that short-term relationships don’t. Everyone likes to talk about love and the sexy bits, but love is only one part of the relationship.

      Economics, career fulfillment, long term dreams and plans, frequency and duration of moving, plans regarding children, type of home you want, supporting social network (family, friends). Those matter in a long-term relationship, and they can get a bit paved over in a short-term relationship. They can seem not “as important” when you’re in the honeymoon phase of a short relationship, when you’re all on your best, impress-the-mate behavior and hormones are running high. But a relationship doesn’t last if you can’t get through the hormones-running-low phases.

      You’re badly matched in the aspect of your competing career desires. You can love someone, and still be a terrible choice of long-term partner. You can opt to sacrifice your career goals for him – lots of women do. You can walk away and find a different guy who’s more compatible with your career needs – they really do exist. You can ask him to make some sacrifices in his career for you, either now or later. No matter what, make sure you at least have a discussion, make him aware you are not happy with how things are, and see if he has ideas to contribute or just expects you to put his career first. Only you know what all the other bits of your relationship with him are worth and what course of action makes the most sense.

      As a woman, I encourage you to keep enough skills/assets/career to be self-sufficient if the relationship doesn’t work out. That might mean downgrading your career, but not entirely abandoning it or going without work for long periods. I encourage you to save for your own retirement. Relationships fall apart, or people die, or life circumstances change dramatically (say, he gets badly injured and can’t effectively work in his field any more) – it’s prudent to mitigate that by keeping a certain level of self-sufficiency.

      1. Non-academic with academic problems*

        I feel like you made a lot of assumptions in a way that feels condescending, but thank you for taking the time to comment.

        1. GirlwithaPearl*

          I read no condescension there. I’m assuming this is something you knew might happen before you got married. Did you and your husband discuss it? Were you okay with it in theory but it’s harder in practice? It can’t have been a surprise, right? There’s a long history of women being stuck in this position.

          1. Non-academic with academic problems*

            I can see how it came across that way to me, but since several people disagree, I suspect my original comment wasn’t as reflective of the situation as it could’ve been. Too bad we can’t discuss over coffee, instead, haha (assuming everyone wouldn’t throw it in my face at this point).

            It does just turn out to be harder in reality. I’m not particularly career oriented, and have never gotten that much satisfaction out of my work, so I don’t think I would end up happier in a distance relationship. I figured any job would do, but it turns out that’s not the case. The grass is always greener, go figure.

        2. Ann O.*

          What were the assumptions made? You sounded fairly clear in your original post that you feel like your ability to have a career is being hurt by your husband’s need, and you also write as though it’s simply a given that you will move for his post-doc (to an unknown location) and then you will move again as he moves up the academic letter.

          This is a difficult situation because you may genuinely not have a good set of choices. Academia is a horrible job market for most specializations… even if he wants to make a choice that’s mutually beneficial, his job choice may be Postdoc in Undesirable location or nothing.

          So even though you thought Student’s post was a little condescending, I agree with the thrust of it. Think about your goals independent of your husband’s reality and work backwards from there. If he were a non-factor, what would you be trying to do now? How would you be trying to do it? And then, what is possible to bring your present reality closer to that hypothetical? Would you be willing to do a long-distance relationship for a bit if that’s what it would take? And if so, for how long?

          1. Non-academic with academic problems*

            I think it is a bit much to lay out how long-term relationships work (assuming I’m not aware) and assume how I’m handling my finances, as well as telling me that other men “really do exist.” But apparently only I feel that way, so perhaps I’m misreading it.

            I do appreciate your list of questions, and will try to keep that in mind.

          2. Non-academic with academic problems*

            I think it is a bit much to lay out how long-term relationships work (assuming I’m not aware) and assume how I’m handling my finances, as well as telling me that other men “really do exist.” But I seem to be the only one feeling that way, so it seems likely enough I’m just reading it wrong.

            I appreciate your list of questions, I think that will be helpful in planning for the future.

        3. PM Jesper Berg*

          With due respect, I think Student’s post laid out the tradeoffs very cogently. You’re confusing candor with condescension.

          1. Non-academic with academic problems*

            I’m aware there are tradeoffs, and hoping to make the best of my situation. An explanation of how we’re not the most compatible career-wise and that “they (other men) really do exist” isn’t helpful, even if it’s accurate.

            I feel like it assumes I’m unaware of what a long-term relationship needs to function, and that I’m too foolish to just go find a better fit, *and* that I’m not managing my finances, but no one seems to agrees, so apparently I’m just taking it too personally. I will try to stop doing that, and appreciate the input.

  135. toots mcgee*

    How weird is farting in the office? I have a coworker that farts daily, loudly, but stench free. It’s a very open office so everyone can hear him. He’s in his early 30s, otherwise smart, courteous, friendly. I can’t say for sure of course, but I’m pretty sure this is not medically related and more of just a quirk. No one ever acknowledges it or talks about because we’re all adults except apparently me and my infantile obsession with bodily functions.

    1. Infinity Anon*

      If it isn’t causing an issue, ignore it. Farting is one of those things that can be difficult to control. At least there is no smell.

      1. toots mcgee*

        Well it is pretty distracting. Ignoring is the mature and adult route to go which obviously my office has done and I follow suit. It’s just kind of like…come on man. Lots of people use cpap machines, the king of causing gas, and even they figure out a way to not let it out in the office constantly.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think regular loud farting is weird. If it’s a one-off, that’s normal, but every day? Go to the bathroom… at least some of the time.

      1. toots mcgee*

        That’s how I feel. It’s pretty weird when I talk to him and ten seconds later when I’m five feet away he rips one. At this point I see it as a distraction more than giggles or immature reaction. Walk down the hall, go to the bathroom or squirm just a little like the rest of us.

        1. Snark*

          And, like, sure, sometimes you think it’s gonna be quiet and you end up playing the Shame Trombone, but it’s also pretty obvious when someone rips one out. If there’s abs involved, it changes things.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I know that sometimes it can’t be helped, but really. Anyplace I ever worked, people would excuse themselves and go somewhere else, like outside of the building, to the restroom, or an unused conference room, or out into the hallway.

  136. jmm*

    Just venting – but I’m in complete BEC mode with my co-worker (other admin asst). I have a pretty high tolerance for aggravation but she is just beyond anything I’ve ever experienced. She is taking a trip to Italy in a few weeks, and I’m happy for her (fabulous vacation) and for me (she’ll be gone for 5 days!). This is her first big vacation in years and she is convinced the office can’t function without her. She has threatened to cancel the trip several times because of minor work issues that others can definitely handle.
    I just want to bang my head against the wall.

  137. People are weird*

    I am so confused.

    All right, so a couple of months ago I was fired without warning. Well, I was a contractor, so I don’t know if fired is the right word, but basically they terminated my contract early. And I had no idea why. I had literally never gotten a single word of negative feedback. And to make matters weirder, my boss didn’t even tell me. There was no in-person meeting, phone call, or even an email. The agency I was contracting through emailed me asking if I knew anything about my contract ending, and I was like, “huh?” And to make matters even weirder still, my boss ended my contract on a day I was out sick. It was the first time I had taken a day off in over a year, and when I emailed the team that morning, she gave no clue anything was weird. She just said, “get better!” And then that afternoon, I no longer had a job. Of course I tried calling her and emailing her, but she just dodged all my attempts at contact, and I was only able to communicate by talking to the agency and they would talk to her. But they didn’t give me any details either, or at least that’s what they told me. It was hurtful because I had worked there for over a year and a half. I feel like you can ghost on freelancers (although please don’t), but I was working 40 hours a week for 19 months. I felt like part of the team.

    Recently my boss has started liking my tweets and retweeting me on Twitter, which I just find really weird, because, like, hi you fired me? And then today she retweeted a funny tweet I did and said they were posting a social media job and I should apply for it. Like what? Why would I work for you again? And what happened that you would fire someone then try to lure them back? So weird, lady.

    1. DBG*

      Sounds like someone over her head made the decision to cut you loose and now she’s trying to get you back. It’s weird for sure.

    2. Fabulous*

      I feel you. I was working contract at a place for about 18 months and was in the process of interviewing for a permanent position. I finally connected with the recruiter Friday afternoon and he told me they would not be offering me the position. Ok, fine, whatever, I understand your reasoning. I go home for the weekend, then I get a call about 7-8pm from my agency saying my contract had been terminated. WTF? I end up calling my supervisor from the job and asking him what was up, and all he could tell me is I was not to come back on premises to pick up the personal items I had in my desk and he was disappointed that the recruiter didn’t tell me they immediately cut the contract once they decided not to hire me. All of my coworkers were floored at what happened. So many things were left unfinished, not to mention they literally had no one to answer the phones on Monday! Ah, well.

      1. People are weird*

        My situation sounds similar, Fabulous! I was in the middle of projects. They had been talking to me about a full-time position, and I helped craft the job description. In the mean time, my job was still going full steam ahead. I had just been assigned stuff the day before. I owned a lot of the content on our CMS, and I’m like ok now you can’t even edit 2,000+ documents because you fired me without any plan in place? It was so random. I know I can’t ever know what happened, but it is so weird that she doesn’t understand that engaging with my on social media is sort of reopening wounds I’m trying to move on from!

        Anyway, I’m definitely not going back because she clearly doesn’t have the emotional intelligence needed to be an effective manager. You have to tell people what’s going on!

    3. LQ*

      I wonder if this is weird attempt to avoid having to pay a fee for hiring you directly through your contractor?

  138. embarassed anon*

    How do you get back the confidence of your boss after you made a major mistake that had real fallout and consequences and made the company and everyone look bad? Part of my job involves planning events like fundraisers, rallies, trade shows, conferences (etc.) for non-profits, elected officials, industries, large companies (etc.). I have been doing this job for over a decade and have worked at 3 different companies doing it. It is the only type of job I have ever had (besides a part-time one in retail).

    I did an event where I made a major mistake. It would be like a doctor going into the operating room without washing their hands and cutting into someone who was awake and sitting up and not under yet. Or a graveyard worker filling in a grave and then putting the casket on top of the filled in ground, instead of doing it the other way around. It was that obvious of a mistake in my industry.

    An elected official was going to be at the event so there was lots of extra security and a perimeter. I don’t know how or why I missed that someone lived near one of the off-limit areas. She was denied entry and access to her own home when she got home from work. Because of the politician, the security and the government liaisons could not let her in because there was no exception listed because I missed it. It was my job to co-ordinate and account for this. She had to get the police and another elected official involved. She was not allowed into her home for almost two days.

    She didn’t go to the press which is what we expected to happen because she wanted privacy because she works in a military type job. But the fallout was still bad. The entire event was ruined, the people who hired us to organize the event looked bad and so did our company. Everyone else who heard was outraged on her behalf. The elected official who represents her area and who she got involved was furious and he ripped into us and the people who hired us. The people who hired us were embarrassed, so were we. Word of what happened spread like wild fire and now everyone is talking about it.
    My boss and those above him are upset with me. This was a hundred percent my error. I have a senior title and not even a rookie would make this mistake. I made the company and the people who hired us look bad an embarrassed everyone terribly. For the time being all of my work will be reviewed by someone else. I will also not be given high-profile events. I am embarrassed. I have lost all the confidence from my boss and my own confidence in myself is shaken. I accept that I made the mistake and it was no one else’s fault. How do regain the confidence of my boss and salvage my reputation in our industry? I have no idea how to do it.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Yikes.

      I think that not making excuses is a huge first step. It sounds like you’ve acknowledged that you screwed up and apologized for it.

      The only thing you can do now is be exceptionally cautious with every detail of everything you do going forward. This is going to take time to move past and the only way to restore your reputation is to work diligently and show people that you can do better.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      You are owning your mistake. That’s the best thing you can do. Just be twice as diligent. Mistakes happen, even big mistakes. Here’s the thing though…no one died. Literally. You aren’t a doctor or nurse, your mistake didn’t cost anyone a life or limb. You’ll recover. It might make you feel better to add extra check point to your work.

      I screwed up last week. Sent an invite to a reception out to about 500 people it shouldn’t have gone to. Then I found that I hadn’t restricted registration on two classes that should have been restricted because it’s a special cohort program. The first was speed and not double checking. The second I couldn’t have known to do. But still owned it, apologized for it and mitigated what I could.

    3. Anecdata*

      Ouch, that sounds really stressful.

      It sounds like you are taking full responsibility, which is a great first step. Would it also help to send a straight-up apology card to the person affected?

      We had a thread a while back about whether you can recover from a really bad mistake. To be honest, there are some organizations where folks always would have “but so-and-so did such-and-such” in the back of their mind and it would affect your opportunities. But this is recent – be extra vigilant, rack up some wins, and see where things are in 6 months. And in any case, this kind of fall out won’t follow you throughout the whole industry.

      (And on a personal note, since this stuff can be really hard to deal with – you are not your work. No matter how big a work mistake is, it’s not the most important thing about you).

    4. LostRiverRanger*

      My background is healthcare error, so I think I can offer some advice. Healthcare and other organizations that strive for low error never depend upon a single person, use a variety of strategies to ensure safety (huddles, checklists, standardization) and also use root cause analysis to understand the systems causes of major errors. You could recommend that the organization conduct an RCA, lead by someone with experience d in the method. **Believe me, if you could have done it, anyone else could have**. No well-designed system should have permittted such a catastrophic (as you described) to happen! So you are a human, an imperfect error-prone normal human (just like surgeons! And grave diggers!) working in an imperfect system. Turns out, changing humans (training! Be more careful next time! Just remember!) is really really hard. Changing systems is somewhat easier. In the operating, we have so mnay strategies for ensuring no harm to patients ….but of course it still happens, but we understand that barring a few instances, it’s a systems issue. But no one would operate on a sitting up awake patient (well, unless it was intentional), and if it did happen, we would really wonder about the entire system (not just the surgeon!)

      There are two concepts that might resonate with you. Swiss cheese! And Sharp End! Swiss cheese theory (James Reason) says that latent conditions (flaws in the system) can predispose the system to errors. Usually all the flaws don’t happen at once – someone catches the error or a technology designed to prevent it stops the event. But if all the holes in the cheese line up, the event can happen. The really fascinating thing is, during an RCA, you will often uncover these “holes” and even more interesting, people will tell you about close calls (“OMG, that almost happened last year!). Those close calls aren’t markers of better humans than you who prevented an event – but of a pre-existing flawed system.

      The other theory is “sharp end”. The person who takes the blame is usually the person closest to the action (in healthcare this is often the nurse who administers the wrong med but not the pharmacist who made a mistake in screening, the practitioner who ordered it, the other nurse who verified the order). In this case, you might be the easiest to blame…but it’s highly likely you aren’t the only person responsible.

      When is the human really to blame? If they are impaired (showing up drunk) or willfully causing harm/damage. Not if they are just normal humans.

      You might look at Atul Gawandes book “the checklist manifesto”.

      lastly, I’m really sorry. In healthcare we (try to) value people who’ve made errors, and ask them to share their experiences and help us make the system safer. It’s not that we don’t hold people accountable, but we understand that an error (even a fatal one) does not make a bad practitioner. I would encourage you to take reaponsibility as you have done, but also express concern that despite your years of experience, attention to detail, etc this still happened and thus the risk remains it could happen to your organization again. And ask for an RCA and to be a witness (NOT a member of the team – teams are *peers* and experts (not invoked parties, not just managers and leadership) ) and see what shakes out. The RCA team should try to make discrete statements about the root cause and propose solutions.

      It’s possible to make sure this isn’t just a bad mistake, but truly a chance to improve the system.

      Lastly (lastly). Don’t be embarrassed. As someone with experience, you are able to use that to command an audience. Say “hey, if this could happen to me, it really could happen to anyone!!). There’s a saying from aviation – there are “those that have (made serous errors), and those that will”. You are now in the “those that have” camp, but there are lots of us here, we are still successful, still working and ready to welcome “those that will” when their time comes.

      1. PM Jesper Berg*

        Excellent post, and thanks for the book recommendation. I’m a big fan of checklists, so I’ll (pun intended) check it out.

  139. MLiz*

    My new office mate goes out hourly to smoke. No one else in my department smokes and I’m very sensitive to smell and cigarette smell gives me headaches (wood smoke e.g. doesn’t) and makes my throat dry and scratchy. We have to take all our clothes into our offices, so I can’t ask him to wear an “smoking jacket” and for reasons of safety I can’t bring an air purifier or candles (the latter is a fire hazard, the former is a company policy about outside electric equipment).

    Any thoughts on how to mask the smell or get rid of it, especially now that it’s getting towards the colder season and I can’t open the window all day? I will talk to him about whether it’s possible for him to switch to vaping, but smoking is part of his cultural background so I fear that might be out.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Well, if it’s just outside electrical equipment, could you approach your boss or HR or someone about bringing an air purifier in for you? Or about switching your desk with someone else?

      Some small herbal scent thing might help if you aren’t too sensitive to that kind of thing also. I can’t handle smells usually at all, but someone had a little bamboo stick in some oil in a jar once, and it was quite tolerable. Sometimes a little vaporub or other minty thing just under my nose helps too.

      I sympathize though, cigarette smoke makes me ill like no other smell does. I’ve become pretty testy about it as I get older. Sometimes I heckle or straight up yell at people about it. Not that you should do that at work obviously.

      1. MLiz*

        I do complain to people who smoke at non-smoking stations, because it really gives me issues. It didn’t use to that much (I always hated it but it didn’t give me health issues), but the last few years it’s really gotten pretty bad and almost makes me gag.

        If it continues to be a problem I will have to talk to my manager (HR is useless, we’re huge and smoking is relatively prevalent), though I doubt we’ll get a purifier for this. Switching desks is a bit more difficult (seating is assigned by project), though since I’m also still very new it would make more sense he doesn’t sit with me, but we’ll see how that works out.

        A good idea indeed is a little wood thing I can put some essential oil on though! I can stomach essential oils much better, as far as smell goes, and if it’s just a drop it shouldn’t be super disturbing to anyone else. Thank you!

    2. non smoker*

      Oh man, dealing with a stinky smoker is the worst, even if you don’t have the related health issues. Where is he smoking? I know if it’s a protected hut or something the smoke will swirl around even worse collecting on their clothes. I’ve noticed the smokers in my office are basically undetectable because the smoking location is airy and breezy.

      1. MLiz*

        Yeah, it’s a hut that is there for smokers specifically, so I guess that’s why it’s especially nasty.

        I think I’ll try to put up a bit of essential oil like Amber Rose suggested. I even have some at my boyfriend’s, I just need to wait a few more days until I can get at it (we live pretty far apart) and work from home for a day or two next week.

    3. Sualah*

      I know you said you have to bring your clothes in, but is it possible for him to leave the jacket outside in the hut area? I would understand you can’t leave clothes in the outer offices/unattended, but maybe outside the whole building would be all right? Or maybe there is another person who smokes and he could leave a jacket in that person’s office.

      1. MLiz*

        No that’s not really possible. :( The huts are spread across the site (there’s maybe 10 total?) and everyone’s using it, plus if it’s damp (frequent here) then the jacket would also get damp.

        I’ll speak to him if maybe he goes smoking with someone more often who also works in our building who he might leave his jacket with, that’s a good idea.

  140. Nervous Accountant*

    Am I in the small minority in thinking someone who just started a week ago and is already saying “OMG I can’t wait for Friday yay!” is very weird and kind of unprofessional?

    1. Amber Rose*

      It depends on the why. Like if it’s just a general thing, then yeah. But this (for some) is a long weekend, and the last long weekend of summer, and if that person has plans they’ve been looking forward to I’d probably give it a pass.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Is something cool happening on Friday? (“I can’t wait for this camping trip in Yosemite!”)
      Or is it more like “I hate this job and can’t wait to get out of here this weekend”?

      If it’s the latter, yes, that’s weird to say out loud after one week of work.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        No, it’s just the long weekend. But it’s pretty common for everyone here to be ready to bolt and hate being here. (I’m starting to feel thsi way after 3 + years)…sigh.

    3. Snark*

      Yeah, it’s kind of a workplace verbal tic, and I think they’re just in the habit of saying it, but it still has way bad optics.

    4. Workethicplease*

      We just had a new employee start on Wednesday and by Friday at 4.30 she was complaining and said she was going to leave early because “she had things to do & it had been a long week” (all 3 days she had been with us). WTF! 3 days. I can’t stand this lazy idiot already.

  141. periwinkle*

    Just a tip of the hat to Alison! My husband was laid off effective August 1, with 45 days of notice. He had been with the company for 13 years, which meant that (1) they were generous with the severance and (2) he hadn’t updated his resume for 13 years. I gave him my copy of Alison’s book, which had been a big help for my own job search. He took the information seriously, wrote his resume and cover letters in proper AAM style, and approached interviewing as a two-way street, etc.

    He starts his awesome new job (with a nice pay bump) in two weeks. Another AAM success story.

  142. AnotherAlison*

    My boss asked me if I would be interested in starting up a new office. Apparently, I am one of the names being tossed around.

    I am not sure what to think. The first immediatd opportunity is contingent on something else happening in our business, but there are other offices planned longer term.

    I would love the opportunity if it did not involve moving, but now is not a great time. One kid is at a local CC and the other is in 8th grade. Even though we have lived here forever, I may be game in 5 yrs. I think I am going to tell my boss that I am interested, near term is probably a long shot, but I would like more information and to discuss how it would work. A different manager I worked for here commuted weekly and lived in another state. I may be game for that, although my husband and kid would not love it. I really don’t want to miss this part of my kid’s life, but I have also spent a lot of energy trying to get ahead in my career. I didn’t take these types of opportunities when I was younger because of my kids, and I felt it hurt my career in some ways. No question, really, but I would love to hear from people who were in a similar situation, and how that turned out.

  143. NoodleMara*

    I’m currently killing time until I can leave work, I finished all my tasks about an hour ago. I also got a confirmation on an interview time so that’s cool.

    Anyone else killing time?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’m here, aren’t I? ;P
      No but seriously, I have nothing to do. I did my work already, and nothing new is coming in because it’s the Friday before a long weekend, and like ALL of management has been gone this week.

      I’ve been reading a lot of Wiki articles and the news.

      I want to go home and prep for the party we’re holding tomorrow. But I can’t, because I’m like reception so I have to be butt in chair til close. *sigh*

      1. NoodleMara*

        Yeah I think here people are heading out early today. I decided to start learning SQL while I wait until a reasonable time to leave. Thankfully for me, it’s in the next twenty minutes.

        The only good thing about being exempt salary

    2. k.k*

      I always have a ton of downtime at work (one of the many reasons I’m job hunting), but today my boss is out so it’s even worse. So I’m just over here brushing up on my Sudoku and Minesweeper skills :P

    4. Murphy*

      Yes…the Friday before a holiday weekend is super slow…but I missed some work earlier this week so I have to stay in order to get my 40. Back when we didn’t have to clock in and clock out it was kind of unspokenly OK to leave early on days like this (as in, one day, my old boss just said “Let’s go home, there’s nothing happening”) but now that we have to clock in and clock out, it feels not right…

  144. TellUsAboutATimeWhen*

    (UK) – query about moving from public to private sector.

    I’m soon being interviewed for a post within my profession, but in a totally different sector (skills are the same, I’m confident I could do the job, but the interview is something I’m not so sure about!) What advice can anyone give about successfully being interviewed for a private sector company, after my many years of experience moving up within a governmental dept where interviews were *wholly* competency-based (“tell us about a time when….”) ? I don’t know where to start – I worry it’s all going to be about fast-paced innovation (not something that happens in the public sector, ha) and Pound (dollar) signs.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I went the other way, from private to (UK semi-govt) public and didn’t find any difference in the interviewing questions or process compared to the private firm interviews I was in at the same time. Private companies will ask similar competency questions, but what they are really looking for is that you could deliver on what was asked of you, how you delivered it, any issues you overcame/problems you managed, and outcomes. When you frame your response on outcomes you want to let them know what the impact was in terms of: lowered costs, improved efficiencies, growth in the programme, improved uptake, etc – terms they will understand.

      The innovation question, if it comes up (and I would want to see that someone who had worked in a public role would be able to think outside the box a bit) if you can come up with examples that show how you did something differently to years of the norm to get something done, or responded quickly to an emerging issue (I know that can be dependent on which govt dept you are in though!) or took control of a situation to see it resolved using a new technique or something you learned, that would help too.

      Good luck!

  145. Wee Sleekit*

    Oh my gosh you guys this literally just happened. I’m not sure it’s ever happened to me before (this is the first I’ve noticed, at least.)

    In my weekly planning meeting with my Boss yesterday, we were discussing how to best pack the chocolate teapot boxes. Boss suggested a system where each teapot is packed with its own set of teabags.
    But usually our tea-handlers only need to work with the teabags while ignoring the heavy pot; and one teapot may have many sets of teabags. So I suggested instead packing all the pots together and all the teabags together and using a labeling system to associate pot with teabag. We discussed, Boss agreed, I assumed the matter was settled, finished the meeting, and started making the teapot packing boxes.

    This morning I get this email (word for word, except for the teapot part):
    “I’m re-thinking our teapot structure after a short chat with Coworker. Specifically instead of teapot boxes with teapot/teabags etc… under I’m thinking it may make more sense to have top level teapot/teakettle/teabag boxes…”

    Uh, that’s *literally* what we already agreed upon.

    I ended up responding “Yes, this one is the structure that I suggested in our meeting yesterday and I’ve started to work with”, and Boss responded “Cool!”, so at least my Ass is Covered in terms of Boss not disputing that it was my idea.

    Boss is a good boss in general, but this sort of oblivious head-in-the-cloudsness is pretty consistent. The sort of Boss where if they get an idea that is more than a month in the future, you pretty much ignore it unless it comes up again and 90% of the time it never does.

    1. Camellia*

      “… ignore it unless it comes up again and 90% of the time it never does.”

      I had a boss like this. They were bouncing her from team to team instead of taking responsibility for a bad hire and letting her go. When she got to our team, we learned very quickly that when she said ‘do thing’ we should wait for three days to see if she mentioned it again, because she pretty much forgot about it as soon as the words left her mouth.

      She also tried bumming money from me for the vending machines, using the excuse of not having change. After the first two times, which she never repaid, I showed her a dollar bill that I had placed in a desk drawer and told her, “This is for you, if you need money and I’m not here.” She never asked me for money again. (Yes, this was so long ago that candy bars were only 75 cents.)

      1. Wee Sleekit*

        Aah, that sounds really irritating! I really like your solution for shutting down the petty borrowing :-D

        My boss is absolutely fine when setting short-term priorities and large scale project structure. It’s just that they like to start digging into the details that we won’t start work on for several months. Then its several months later and those details are now completely changed.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      “We discussed, Boss agreed, I assumed the matter was settled, finished the meeting, and started making the teapot packing boxes.”
      The only thing missing from this is your writing up the email memorializing your idea and that he is in agreement with it. If you have a boss who can’t retain anything for longer than 10 minutes, then I’m worried you’re not going to get the credit for your ideas that you deserve unless you document them.

  146. Nervous Accountant*

    Not much happened this week, but my coworker (not my report but I’m senior to him) made a HUGE blunder. He missed making payroll tax payments for 8 months, resulting in a boatload of penalties for the client, which my company is 100% taking responsibility for (and rightfully so).

    I feel AWFUL for him and he was very contrite but for hte life of us, my mgr and I CANNOT figure out how he missed this. Our system shows that if someone is set up for payments or not, and it was very obvious that client was not set up.

    Other senior coworkers stuck up for him saying that he wasn’t trained properly, and its tricky, but….I strongly strongly disagree. I talked to him and so did my manager, but I think that’s as far as it’s going to go. Meanwhile, myself and other s get written up, or threatened to be written up, for far less errors that have no financial penalty.

    I feel like my boss didn’t recommend a write up because she wants to somehow pin the blame on me and my manager that he made this mistake.

  147. TattleTail*

    I have kind of a strange problem. My boss is around 60-65 years old and I’m pretty sure is showing signs of early dementia. We will have conversations that she will forget about ten minutes later, and it’s making me look like I’m not doing my job. For example, she will ask me to do something through email, I’ll do it and tell her in person, and then she’ll forget and just think I didn’t do the thing. I’ve tried keeping all communication through email, but she sits literally a few steps away from me so that isn’t always possible. It’s gotten to the point where she will drop the ball on a big project, but then it will look like it was my fault and she’ll forget that she made the mistake in the first place.

    This recently got me in trouble with HR to the point that I was almost fired for not following directions or responding to emails. My boss was in that meeting so I didn’t say anything, but I went in and explained what was happening to HR the next week. HR acted concerned and told me to keep her updated if it continues to happen.

    Well, it’s still happening. I know there’s been quite a few occasions where my boss has been mad at me for something that I didn’t even do wrong. I want to let HR know what’s going on, but I’m not sure where the line between “informing HR so I don’t get fired” and “telling on my boss” is.

    1. Sualah*

      Can you go back to HR and have them send a request to you and your boss that everything be written down? You can say something like, “There have still been some issues” and HR could send an email, “Due to our previous meeting, we’d like for everything to be in writing at this time” and then it’s not you just emailing simple things to your boss, it’s following HR direction.

    2. Sadsack*

      I think there’s no such thing as telling on your boss. I worked for someone who exhibited signs of early onset dimentia, which runs in his family. It was difficult and frustrating, but did not impact my job the same way it is impacting yours. I also would have been reluctant to tell anyone, but you are at a point where it is unable to be hidden any longer and you are being blamed. Go tell HR what has been going on and see how they want to handle it. In the meantime, follow up every conversation you have with your boss with an email confirming what was discussed. If your boss asks why you are doing it, tell her you want to start keeping better track if your tasks. If things get difficult and you do not feel comfortable emailing her, then email notes to yourself. Good luck. I know it is hard to deal with someone, especially your boss, when she is losing her mind.

      1. Sadsack*

        I hope “losing her mind” is not taken as an insult to anyone. That’s what it felt like to me and that is what my boss told me it was like for him when he opened up about what he was going through. He has since retired and we are still finding major errors in his work that are causing problems years later.

    3. K*

      HR asked you to keep them updated. You aren’t telling on your boss by doing that, and you aren’t doing it to be mean – you’re telling them the truth.

      1. MsM*

        +1. Whether or not they’ll actually do anything with the information remains to be seen, but this is an issue that’s affecting your work (and your boss’s as well). They need to know.

      2. Mephyle*

        HR gave you an opening for this. They asked you to keep them updated, and so you should. It’s not only a case of covering your own behind, but helping your company function and ultimately helping the boss, because it does her a disservice to hide and cover up the problems caused by her loss of functioning – it could delay her getting the medical support she needs.

    4. Snark*

      I think you’re on the safe side of it. I think you’re totally fine if you approach it with some sensitivity and tact. “This has been happening, these are some examples, and I’m concerned, both for Boss and for my own tenure in this position.”

    5. CM*

      I would go to HR. Unfortunately, even though it feels like tattling, you need to do it for the sake of your own job, not to mention the company. And consider sending emails to confirm everything you talk about with your boss, so you have a paper trail even if it seems awkward to follow every conversation with an email.

    6. New name*

      I went through a period where I was having episodes of amnesia (short term memory wiped out) because of epilepsy. I would forget entire conversations, similar to what you are describing. One thing that helped was sending e-mails after meeting with someone to summarize what we talked about. Something along the lines of “As we talked about earlier, I will turn in the Ninja Report by 12 pm on Friday so that you can review it before we send it to the client on Monday”. Then there was a record to look back at later. You could try summarizing your in person meetings in e-mails. If it happens often, you can even combine everything together at the end of the day. It might help prevent your boss from dropping the ball, but at the very least you will have proof that you are not the problem.

    7. BuildMeUp*

      I think it might help to reframe this a little. Your boss may have a serious health issue, and something like dementia can be slowed if it’s diagnosed early on. Your boss could also be affected in other ways outside of work if they’re not aware of their own symptoms. And if it is a form of dementia, it will probably only get worse. The best thing you can do is let HR know that it’s still happening so it can be addressed.

  148. katamia*

    It’s looking more and more likely that I won’t get my visa in time to go to grad school abroad. If that happens, I’m hoping I’ll be able to just defer with the university and go next year, but I’m at a loss for what to do for this coming year. It looks like my part-time job is safe (I told them and they seemed very understanding about the uncertainty) and I don’t really want to leave it because it’s adjacent to what I want to study in grad school, but does anyone have any advice on what to do to recover from this pretty epic disappointment? I know it’s “only” a year, but I’ve been underemployed for so long that I was really stagnating beforehand, and the thought of another year of this is killing me.

    1. katamia*

      …Welp. Clearly I should have angst-posted about this last week, because I just got word that the visa approval just came through. Consider this question retracted. :)

      2. Close Bracket*

        I’m so happy for you! My blood pressure was rising in sympathy until I got to your update. :-)

      3. fposte*

        Ha. I think that kind of magic is one of the more reliable forces of the universe. Glad it worked for you.

  149. no one, who are you?*

    Seeing the related post about email signatures made me want to get something off my back:

    My MANDATORY FOR ALL OUTGOING EMAIL INCLUDING TO MY COWORKERS email signature is almost a full page long. Guess how I feel about it. Just guess.

    It contains my name, title, address, phone, fax, website, the basics. But then there’s a thumbnail of a promotional YouTube video. And a bunch of links to articles about us. And buttons for our social media. And a confidentiality notice. And directions to a lost city of gold.

    I don’t do marketing. I don’t do outreach. I do direct service to existing clients. Some of them can barely read. The signature makes it damn near impossible to read email threads. I cannot talk to my boss about this. Boss does not care. I fear my signature will keep getting longer until I’m drowning in useless links. Help.

    2. H.C.*

      Can you switch to a plain text email format? At least all the graphics would go away and maybe display a filename.

    3. CB*

      Have you fully explored your email settings? I know almost all of them have an option to leave off signatures in replies and gmail also offers to collapse all of your signatures in threads (although that one doesn’t help your clients).

    4. LiveAndLetDie*

      Our mandatory-for-all-outgoing-email signature, with formatting rules we HAD to follow, was in all-caps up until about a year ago. I hated it. At least it wasn’t excessively formatted otherwise.

    5. Menacia*

      Well, depending on the links you include, many mail systems may not accept the emails at all, so you could be missing potential clients. Our HR department receives emails regularly from a vendor, all of a sudden, the emails were not getting through, our spam filter was blocking them due to the LinkedIn/Google/Twitter links/buttons she had in her email signature.

      We were not going to change our email system to allow these emails with links that *may* open us up to malware and worse, so we said they needed to be removed when the emails were sent to our company.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I subscribe to an industry listserv. Yes, there are still some of those around. I suspect that you might be a member. Anyway, the listserv has this wonderful feature that scrubs all pdfs and thumbnails and things like that so they don’t show up. It’s great, but you can still see who has annoying signatures with PDFs and thumbnails, even though they are scrubbed.

      Seriously, though, most email systems allow you to use more than one signature. In the past I’ve had jobs where I wore more than one hat and I’d use one signature or the other depending on the which hat I was wearing at the time. (Sometimes I was the HR Admin, other times I was the Staffing Admin. Sometimes I was the Admissions Assistant, other times I was the Scholarship Review Assistant.)

      Could you do something like that? Send email with the fancy signature with thumbnails to your boss and internally, then use a simpler one for existing clients who are only marginally computer literate?

      1. no one, who are you?*

        Nope, because if I have to forward an email to my boss, boss will take the time to yell at me about the signature. I’m not kidding. It has happened before.

        I am on a listserv but I’ve never posted to it.

  150. Awkward question...*

    I have an awkward and potentially embarrassing question that I could use some advice on.

    I share an office with one other person. He has been open about having mental illness. I really hate to sound like such an awful person but sometimes his personal hygiene slides when he is having a bad time. By that I mean no showering or brushing teeth or doing laundry, for a week or more. I really want to be sensitive and empathetic to his struggles, but I can’t handle the smell and it is so bad it makes me gag and I can’t even eat at work now because of the smell. Even if I leave our office it stays inside my nose and head. Our co-workers will avoid our office when it happens or they will call me to come out to them instead of coming to see us. Our manager works out of two other offices and we barely see him. My co-worker and I have to share an office because our work intertwines so much and we basically do the same job almost. I can’t to HR because we work in the HR department. I don’t want to embarrass or hurt his feelings but I can’t take it anymore. I dread going to work because it makes me sick. How can I be kind and sensitive to my co-worker and still deal with this? He is a nice person and I would feel terrible about hurting him. He is not my boss but we aren’t peers either which makes it harder. Thank you in advance.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      You’ve got to talk to his boss, preferably with other people who are affected by his poor hygiene.

    2. Allison*

      Definitely talk to your boss and HR. I get wanting to be compassionate towards someone having a hard time and giving them a little slack on some things, but this is a big problem. He comes into the office every day, he can’t just not wash himself or his clothes and expect people to put up with his stink. If he can’t bring himself to shower more than once a week, he needs serious help.

    3. Close Bracket*

      While you work in HR so can’t go to HR in the sense that most people do, you must have a management chain that you can work through? Or as an HR person yourself, you could talk to him directly using the same skills you would use if you had to talk to any employee who you needed to have an awkward conversation with.

      If it were me, I would go to my boss first, and acknowledge that I was not sure how to escalate since most people go to HR for this sort of thing.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m going to go against the grain and suggest that you talk to him directly instead of going to someone else. He’s been open with you about his struggles, so I think it would be perfectly reasonable for you to gently point out that sometimes his personal habits seem to be slipping when he’s having a bad spell.

      Ideally, you would do this when he’s *not* in the middle of a bad time and frame it as “I understand that you struggle occasionally. What would be the best way for me to address this with you when it happens?”

      1. BRR*

        I would go this route too. Mention it when it’s not a bad time and I think you can avoid linking it to his mental health issues.

  151. Anonymous for Stress Relief*

    Hopefully I’m not too late to get some advice on this.

    My organization is going through some major changes. I am in the non-profit section and previously we have been under the umbrella of a larger organization although functionally independent in most areas. For various reasons, we are becoming our own organization. This decoupling process has resulted in a lot of extra work and stress in what was already a semi-stressful role. I am passionate about our mission, but there are days when I see an email coming in and just want to scream because I know it’s going to be yet another extra project I have to shoehorn in my day.

    I know there is an end coming, but it’s probably going to take a year before this process is complete. Anyone have any suggestions on how to keep myself going in the meanwhile?

    2. Chaordic One*

      The advice about good self-care is sound and to be taken.

      Is this just a short-term thing? Or is the increased workload going to continue? You need to start lobbying for more support. Either a temp or else an additional employee to help with all the extra work.

      If not, I hope you can go to your boss and get some advice about establishing priorities. You can’t do everything, at least not at the same time, and you need to make sure you get the most important things done. Some balls are going to get dropped.

  152. Janeli*

    I’m a new supervisor and I am having a small issue with a great employee. This girl learns quickly, works quickly, and makes few errors if any. This is the third employee I’ve had in this position . The first one tried to work too quickly, made errors often, and got defensive when I’d point out errors to her. The second one was really nice, worker more slowly but the pace isn’t an issue in this job. She did fine but also seemed to get really overwhelmed. The current one is almost too good. If I give her a task that I would expect might have taken half a day to complete, she’ll get it done in half the time or less and asks me what else she can do. Sometimes she’ll miss things or she’ll forget about a task I had previously asked her to do but usually, she does her work well and I don’t usually find errors. I’m impressed but secretly a little annoyed.
    I’ve talked to my boss about giving her more responsibilities and my boss agrees but we are still working on redistributing tasks. We’ve given her some projects that were more involved. Sometimes she’s confused, which is understandable because her background isn’t exactly in our line of work but she asks good questions and tries to understand. I’m wondering if it makes sense to have a chat with her about slowing down. I don’t want to discourage her and I don’t want her to be bored. I know she left her last job because she felt she didn’t have enough work to do. But I’m finding myself snapping at her a little bit when she constantly asks “what else can I help you with?”. I’ve taken time to show her quite a bit and at times was behind on my own tasks because I was constantly stopping to answer her questions and show her new things. She sits right next to me so I’m very accessible. When I first started, if I didn’t have enough to do, I would ask my boss once or twice but not 5 times a day! If I had no new big tasks, I would look over my work, follow up on small tasks, and then if nothing else, *cough* browse online articles and read ask a manager. I can’t tell her she needs to slack off more and I know we need to reevaluate the job and give her more to do. But what to do in the meantime… I guess it’s a good problem to have but would be nice to have some other feedback

    1. K*

      Are you at a place where she can look for her own projects? Write content for a website? Reorganize a system? Purge old files? Have her read books on development in your field? Take a class online?

    2. Morning Glory*

      Can you assign her some low-maintenance learning activities that she can do on her own? When we have interns start, if I don’t have time right off to make sure they have a project, I assign them to do the first few rounds of Codecademy with html and css; website updates eventually become a part of their job so it gives good background, but it’s mainly to keep them engaged while I am busy.

      Making it an official assignment helps set clear expectations, and also removes any lingering doubts on whether something counts as work they should be doing. vs. leisure they should be hiding. In my down time I sometimes do Edx courses relevant to my field, but I don’t broadcast it. I would love if my supervisor assigned me one or two to do as official work or training.

    3. CM*

      I’m sure she has no idea that she’s annoying you when she asks for work. Next time it happens — or you can do this proactively — tell her that while you appreciate her initiative, you need to focus on completing your own tasks. Then tell her what you want her to do — for instance, check in with you each morning, group together any questions she has and send them to you in an email that you can answer at your convenience, spend her free time learning/reading about relevant topics. You could consider scheduling 1-on-1 time with her too, maybe weekly or even daily at first, so she’s not interrupting you at other times.

    4. Sparkly Librarian*

      She should have a list of tasks that can be done in spare time if she completes something early, or if you don’t have another project immediately. Think of things that are nice to have done but rarely happen because there’s no time (not complete make-work). Things that can be half-done without causing issues. Things that need to be repeated (weekly, monthly) and won’t fall off the list just because they’ve been done once. Brainstorm with her if it helps. If you want her to tell you, “I’m done with X you gave me this morning and will be working on List until you need me,” let her know. But that gives her an assignment without needing your input.

    5. sometimes not busy*

      If you think that the quality of her work is affected by her speed then it would be appropriate, but otherwise I’d personally interpret “slow down” as “do a worse job.” And then that supervisor would be dead to me.

      When I last had a professional and heart to heart talk with my boss about feeling underwhelmed he handled it really well. The gist of it was that the work flow was limited on purpose so I could learn and grow at an appropriate pace for everyone involved. He fully acknowledged and appreciated my position and told me that as I get more involved the work will come with time and that he would definitely be shifting assignments over the next year. He never mentioned what I should do with my time because I’m mid-career and don’t need that counseling, but if your employee is new perhaps coach her a bit on how to deal with free time that’s acceptable in your office. Go for a walk, browse the internet, take a snack break, etc. Also mention that asking constantly is not appropriate because you’ve heard and understood her and more work is in the pipeline and she needs to be patient.

      So I guess if you haven’t fully acknowledged and appreciated her concern, I’d do that straight away.

      1. sometimes not busy*

        I guess the caveat with coaching her on free time is that there *literally* is nothing else for her to do and that you have already exhausted all of the other “to do list” suggestions the commenters above have stated.

    6. Friday*

      FYI please, use “woman” not “girl” – in a professional setting and when talking about a professional setting.

      Are there things she could be reading/studying to get a better feel for your line of work, since her background is different?

    7. Student*

      It’s okay to set some boundaries with her. Tell her to schedule meetings with you, or only meet with you on X frequency, or give her some other people to contact regarding tasking (maybe in different parts of the business). Explain why – that you want to help her and teach her, but it has to be at a sustainable frequency where you can still concentrate on your own work, too.

      Please don’t tell her to goof off more, though, because I guarantee that will demoralize her tremendously. You might be able to send her home early for a bit while you work out the bigger issue (without docking her pay).

      Tell her you’re aware she’s not fully tasked right now, and you fully intend to address that, but it’ll take a bit of time and creativity on both your parts. Then, she knows you’re on top of it and there’s at least potential for a change to address the issue.

      Encourage her to show some initiative. Ask her to come up with a set of proposals for things she could do to help you / the department / the business with her extra time. Even if you end up shooting them down, it might get you some ideas you could build on with her. Task her with researching something and summarizing it for you when she has down-time – maybe looking into a competitor’s products, maybe looking up cheaper suppliers for something, maybe looking up best practices for something, maybe getting input from your colleagues on something, maybe logistics for a new business idea.

    8. Chaordic One*

      If you don’t want to come right out and tell her to slow down, you can instead tell her that she needs to pay more attention to detail and that you’re worried she’ll make mistakes or overlook something by working so quickly, as she has in the past. Maybe have her review the work she has already done.

      You can also recommend some light reading for her. Company manuals, training materials, maybe some online training. I wouldn’t complain if she spent some time surfing the web.

  153. Kately*

    I GOT THE JOB! And it’s a 40% raise! And I successfully negotiated a $3k increase on top of that! Thank you so much Alison and everyone here – I would have left that money on the table otherwise. (I asked if there was “room to go up” because they advertised the salary band and their offer was in the bottom quarter of the range. They immediately offered to bump me up one step!)

    It’s a temp position so in a year or less I’ll have to find something else if it doesn’t pan out, but for now it’s a major step up from my previous entry level position I’ve been at for a decade, and I’m hoping it will open other doors. I ended up having to work twice as hard to get out – my outside contracting and volunteering got me two amazing references, who helped me get in to the interview. I keep pinching myself because I can’t believe it’s actually happening, but I start on the 11th. I’ve been in a funk, searching since 2012, so if you’re similarly struggling, please don’t give up.

    1. overeducated*

      Wow, that’s awesome! Congratulations and good luck. It’s so wonderful to hear success stories.

      1. Kately*

        Thanks! I also enjoy reading comments here with everyone else’s wins, so it’s really nice to be able to contribute one of my own.

      1. Kately*

        I honestly never thought I’d get it and that helped me relax in the interview. It’s been such a terrible year I started to half-believe that good things only happened to other people.

        1. Snark*

          I had the same feeling when I got my current job. I’d accepted a fairly crappy, low-paying interim position and the interview kind of dropped into my lap. I think I was relaxed and confident in the interview because I didn’t have any hope.

  154. NewJobWendy*

    I am starting a new job on Wednesday. My current job, an adminstrative role, put me on a 4-week PIP at the beginning of August. 3 weeks into it they asked me to resign; later that same day I was offered the new job I’m starting on Wednesday. This is for the best; my new role is an accounting role, something I am going to school for and had been job searching for long before the PIP came into play. However, this new role stresses extreme attention to detail as one of the most important qualities for success. One of the items in my PIP was lack of attention to detail. That’s true, but since I have always been detailed oriented, I believe the lack of attention was a result of working 50 to 60 hour weeks every week, working at least 10 hours every day, and carrying an unreasonable workload. (Now that I’m leaving, my workload is not transferring to my replacement. It’s being split among my replacement and 4 other employees). The whole situation has shaken my confidence. I am seeking advice on how to go into my new role without letting self-doubt sabotage me. For what it’s worth, I’m 36…. I’m not new to working or to handling difficult situations at work, or starting a new job. But I’m still a nervous wreck due to working so hard at my current job and still managing to fail so badly.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I was in a similar situation when I started my current job. And even a year later, I still have moments where I get the irrational fear that my boss is about to fire me (despite her being incredibly open and candid with feedback and praising me frequently). So, it’s hard.

      Make a lot of lists so you can double check things. Make sure you take great notes while you’re being trained. Remind yourself frequently that OldJob was unreasonable and that you are awesome.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I think you are entirely correct in your assessment of the situation you are leaving behind. The fact that your work is being split between your replacement and 4 other employees speaks volumes (and not well) of your former or soon-to-be-former employer. It’s not you, it’s them.

  155. TheWanderingRabbit*

    Hi friends! I’m looking for some direction. I am a young professional in the non-profit world who needs to pick up another job due to my low salary. My full-time job is a M-F 9-5 gig, which I need to stay in for at least a few more years due to some job-hopping after college. To complicate matters, I also am the (volunteer) director of a small non-profit in a neighboring town, which requires me to be up holding office hours one evening a week. I need to fine something part-time that can accommodate me setting my own hours, but I’m stumped. Any ideas? I’m trying desperately to avoid retail and I won’t work for a MLM company.

    1. FormerOP*

      Have you thought about babysitting? I suggested this to my younger sister when she was living in HCOL as a young person with an entry -level job. I know A LOT of parents who would love to have a responsible adult available to watch the kids on Saturday night. It is not that glamorous, but the money might be what you need and if you stick to weekends it won’t interfere with your day job and won’t be high impact. There are low-cost pediatric first aid/cpr classes that you can invest in to make yourself more attractive as a babysitter.

      1. TheWanderingRabbit*

        I have seriously considered babysitting, although I haven’t done it since high school! Did your sister go through a specific venue/website to find jobs or was it just word of mouth? I believe I am still CPR certified from a previous job, but am probably not pediatric first aid certified. I’m sure that would make anyone more marketable!

        1. Emily S.*

          You may want to check out a website called Care.com — it’s a little bit like TaskRabbit, but for things like child and pet care, household tasks, etc. I’ve heard good things about it.

          1. TheWanderingRabbit*

            I tried care.com many years ago and had a bad experience with it, so I think I’m a bit gun shy. This very well might have been a one-off bad experience, so I’d be willing to try again!

    2. Morning Glory*

      In my city, non-scam part-time evening jobs that may mean you need to give up your volunteer position would be: evening receptionist at law firms, part-time staff at 24 hour gyms, or being a hostess or dishwasher at a restaurant.
      ‘Side hustles’ that would give you total schedule control would include taskrabbit, dog walking, ebay, and babysitting. Obviously, these pay less and are not as great, because of supply and demand: a looooot of more want to have total control over their schedule.

      1. TheWanderingRabbit*

        Oh! I hadn’t thought of the receptionist idea. That’s great. I totally understand the catch-22 surrounding schedule control and salary. I worked a full-time and part-time job for 2 years, and really miss the fact that I was the scheduling manager for my part-time job and had a ton of flexibility in terms of working hours.

  156. lotus flying*

    i’m an intermediate level web developer thinking about moving on in the next 4-6 months. i’m thinking build some interesting side projects, go to more meetups/local conferences, put the word out to my network to keep an eye out for me. current job is ok so I don’t want to rush, but i also don’t want to stagnate. what else should i be doing to make myself as marketable as possible during that time?

  157. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    So the guy who got hired instead of me for the QA Supervisor position I interviewed for internally last year stopped by my desk today to ask me a question. The ensuing conversation revealed that even after nearly a year on the job he…somehow doesn’t understand how our facility works.

    Picture if you worked at a hamburger factory, and someone stopped by your desk to ask why the teapots we make are always blue, and you’re just staring because we don’t make teapots, we make hamburgers.

    Yeah, it was kind of like that. *headdesk*

    1. This Daydreamer*

      Good news! That QA position will probably be reopened soon! So don’t headdesk yourself in to a concussion.

      That one really is jaw dropping.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Agree with Daydreamer. Possibly some higher-up has started noticing his professional gaps, and is calling him on them. For myself, I’m wondering if he’s going to start coming to you more often now. My evil side is thinking it might be fun to track this (the date/time of his questions and your answers) in a spreadsheet, just to see if the questioning starts accelerating at all. After a month, or two, or three, I’ll leave it up to you as to whether you’ve accumulated enough evidence to infer anything about his job security status.

  158. Need help staying focused*

    Tips for staying focused in meetings? We don’t have company issued cellular phones or laptops and all devices are expected to be turned off and put away during working hours. A designated administrative person from each department takes notes and there is also an admin who is assigned to do the minutes. They give the notes to relevant persons after the meetings. No one is allowed to take notes, I brought a notepad to one meeting and my manager asked to speak with me before it started and told me to leave it at my desk because the admin’s will take notes and distribute them as necessary. My company and the one I worked at previously were both great at making sure all meetings were needed and relevant and not pointless but it still tough for me to stay focused. How do others focus in meetings or other things where they are mandated and expected to sit and listen without anything to do/anything allowed in their hands? I tend to drift off and miss things. If I get asked a question and I have no idea what is going on it is really embarrassing and I really want to work to focus better. I don’t have ADHD or any issues but I have a co-worker who has been open about hers and she is able to focus in the meetings much better than I do and is able to sit and listen without anything to do or anything in her hands.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I found that practicing mindfulness meditation really helped me in meetings. Your attention will still drift – such is the nature of attention. What mindfulness meditation teaches you is to notice when your attention has drifted and return to focus.

    2. bohtie*

      first of all, that situation is just… something else. I am so sorry. Could you talk to your coworker and ask if she has any advice? Apologies if I’m stating the obvious.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I have never been to a meeting where I couldn’t take my own notes. That’s seriously unreasonable, sorry.

    4. KR*

      Is this worth revisitng with your manager – maybe they didn’t want you to feel like you had to take notes but if you explain that you are having a hard time focusing they may allow it.

  159. Disappointed*

    Search update: had phone interview for awesome-sounding term job in city I want to move to, was invited for an in-person or Skype interview, but they’re ONLY doing them on one specific day when I have a mandatory, non-negotiable, all day work event three hours away. I said I could be available at 8 AM or step out during the lunch break for a Skype interview and received no response, so I guess that’s not happening. Sigh.

    I know they owe me nothing, and this just means they have enough other good applicants that it’s not worth it to them to find another hour on a different day, but it IS disappointing. That day is literally the only day I couldn’t find an hour somewhere, and most days I would even take leave to travel to that city on my own dime.

  160. Imaginary Number*

    Asking this one for a friend who asked me.

    Etiquette of declining/returning office handouts.

    A coworker brought in single serve coffee packegea for a brand she particularly likes and was handing them out. No special occasion. My friend, we’ll call him Simon, declines because he’s not much of a coffee drinker. Later she drops off the package on his desk. He decides to return it to her desk and mentions to another coworker on the way his reason for doing so. His boss overhears and rebukes him for returning the gift and tells him to take it back.

    My coworker thinks his boss was wrong because a) he’ll never drink it and b) it wasn’t a gift in the traditional sense. I agree with his boss only in so much as I thought he should have returned it person, reiterating that he appreciated the thought but that it would truly go to waste.

    Looking for other opinions on this rather minor etiquette question.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Sorry, that should have been “my friend” not coworker. I don’t actually work with him.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      Friend also left out an important detail and now I agree with him. This particular coworker also hands out cards with bible verses whenever she think someone’s been rude to her.

      1. Rincat*

        That’s all..weird. I don’t think the boss should be scolding Simon for not wanting the coffee. But also the Coffee Person should not have put coffee on his desk when he refused it the first time – it’s like she was saying, “No, your answer isn’t good enough! You will TAKE THE COFFEE!” Also the cards are inappropriate – if someone is rude to her, she needs to just straight up talk to them instead of handing out passive aggressive cards (bible verses or not).

        As for what Simon should do, I’d just let it go at this point. Throw the coffee away. Both Boss and Coffee Person seem odd.

      2. Victoria, Please*

        That is actually hilarious.

        I grew up in Evangelicalville and we did some pretty nutty stuff. I’m trying to think of a *less* effective way to “win people to Christ” or whatever, and coming up blank. Oh, I know, 15-year olds accosting people at Daytona Beach during spring break.

    3. Colette*

      It sounds like he would have been better off giving it to someone who would use it. I don’t see any point in returning it when she dropped it off after he’d already said no. (Obviously she shouldn’t have done that, but we can’t change her.) Giving it back feels more like making a statement than getting rid of something he won’t use.

  161. Close Bracket*

    I got a response from a resume that I sent out. Good …. except that the response came in at 11:30 PM last night, and they want a phone interview on Monday.

    Should I tell them that Monday is Labor Day? The name is not an Anglo-Saxon name, but you really can’t draw conclusions about country of origin from name. I had a problem with a foreign-born lead not respecting US holidays at a previous job. I hate to project, but this is not a good look for the company. I’m a little concerned that there is a company culture of not understanding that people do other things besides work, especially late at night and on national holidays.

    1. CatCat*

      Why don’t you just tell them you’re not available on Monday, but are available XYZ days instead?

      You can always ask about work days/hours expectations in the interview process.

      1. Close Bracket*

        I *am* available on Monday. That’s not the problem. The problem (potentially) is a culture where sending emails at 11:30 at night and working on federal holidays are expected.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s a look or not a look on its own. If you don’t want to interview on Monday, ask to interview another day (though if you’re working the rest of the week, I would think this would be supremely convenient, and that may be their thinking as well); you can ask about holidays and expectations later in the interview. But I don’t think there’s anything sacred about Labor Day that makes this alarming about culture.

      And wouldn’t a red flag be *good* on Labor Day :-)?

      1. Close Bracket*

        It’s not that I don’t want to interview on Monday. I don’t have any plans this specific Labor Day. However, having Labor Day plans is such a common and normal status that I question why anyone would even think to schedule an interview on that day. It may not be “sacred”, but it’s traditional to either travel of spend time outside with family. Perhaps not in this guy’s family, perhaps not in your family, but the lack of consideration that most families do have plans is, well, worrying. Combine that with working at 11:30 at night, and I really wonder what kind of workaholic culture they have.

        1. fposte*

          I really don’t think that’s that big a tradition, frankly, so I don’t see this as that big a deal. But if you do, then you could be right that this isn’t the company for you.

    3. Inspector Spacetime*

      Perhaps they’re requesting Monday on purpose because they figure that you would already be not at work so you wouldn’t have to worry about potentially alerting your current employer? Even so, though, that’s pretty out of touch.

      I’m confused about what you mean by the name not being Anglo-Saxon. Are you interviewing for an international company?

      1. Close Bracket*

        No, no, it’s an American company. I meant I can’t tell from the name alone if this is a foreign-born person who might not realize that Americans typically spend Labor Day picnicking or travelling, and that asking someone to interview on Labor Day is a little gauche, to put it mildly. If it’s just a misunderstanding of American norms, nbd (I hope). However, if the request is reflective of an attitude that “You should be totally willing to do work stuff on federal holidays,” that makes me wonder whether there is an overall expectation that people never stop working.

        1. fposte*

          I think the norms you’re talking about must be regional–the most anybody gets up to around my neck of the woods is an evening barbecue, and I’ve never heard of Labor Day picnicking.

          1. Another Academic Librarian*

            I’ve never heard of Labor Day picnicking either, and I don’t know anyone who is planning to travel for Labor Day. I suppose some people take advantage of the day off by seeing family or arranging kind of outing? I’ve gone to barbecues in the past… but I also might be mixing Labor Day up with Memorial Day, because I do that sometimes.

    4. Kelly L.*

      Could they have just forgotten it’s Labor Day? Heaven knows I’ve forgotten it 3 or 4 times today.

  162. Letter update question*

    Was there ever an update re: the letter about Michelle, who changed her appearance regularly and sometimes did it in the middle of the day? It is one of my favorite letters and it I think about it often.

    1. Rincat*

      I’m not sure, but I’d love to read one! I think about her too, especially since one day at work I did go out and buy a new shirt on my lunch break and changed in the bathroom. The shirt I wore in to work that morning turned out to be really see-through under the fluorescents and I didn’t have a jacket or anything to cover up.

      1. Helen*

        +1

        I am still flabbergasted at the chair letter and update. I can’t believe that company was so adamant that someone sit in a chair which was way too wide for her to the point it affected her comfort and her work. Even though I don’t know her I’m glad she quit and I’m glad OP did what they could to support her and be a good manager.

        1. Snark*

          Well, now even tiny, muddy hills can know that somewhere, out there in the world, is someone who will die on them.

  163. anonymous stuck between a rock and a hard place*

    How to manage/train someone when they don’t technically work for you?

    I work for a small company (<15 people) and the person who was my backup left about a year ago. I've been doing my job for about 9 years, and there's a lot of nuance to the work that I've learned how to make judgment calls over time based on past experience, having a good idea what my boss would say, etc. I'm responsible for too many things, and my boss needs me to focus more on their projects so they want me to train one of my coworkers to cover some of the day-to-day work I do. This has been going on for about six months, and I'm hitting a wall. My coworker is at the same level as me and doesn't actually report to me (they work in another department but the work is tangential to mine so they were the best candidate to take on this task), so I'm struggling to find a balance with managing/training them where I don't come off as too authoritarian.

    My other problem is that they take everything I say as etched-in-stone procedure when the reality is the work is nuanced and requires making judgment calls more than following rigid rules. I'm really struggling when they do something on a current case because I apparently told them it had to be this way on a past case, when it actually only applied to that previous situation. I have tried to explain there isn't a lot of black and white in this work, but I am not getting the message across. Further, they get very defensive when I talk to them about making corrections and feel like it is a personal attack.

    To complicate matters, we work in a place where previous managers created an environment where people were expected to do as they were told and not to question (they reported directly to this person, I did not), so I'm trying to change this particularly annoying mindset unsuccessfully. I don't want to micromanage this person's work because I want them to be able to work independently, but after a number of problems, I feel like I need to institute a "nothing gets sent outside this office until I've reviewed it" policy. Of course, this puts me back in my original sinking ship of not having enough time to work on the other projects I need to complete. Hiring someone else is not an option right now, so I have to find some way to manage in current situation until I can make a better one for myself (a.k.a. new job). Any thoughts?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      The only thing that comes to mind is “checklists.” I get that the work this other employee you are not in charge of is nuanced, and requires making on-the-fly judgment calls to process correctly. I also understand you are already taking on more than you want, but if you really need someone to do this work for you, and to do it autonomously, you may have to bite the bullet and sit down and look at each of the last, oh, say, 20 instances that required a judgment call, and look at the processes that led up to making those nuanced calls in (what will seem to *you*) excruciating detail. If you can nail down at exactly what points in the process specific circumstances have to exist that will flag the employee to go one way vs. another, that should help. Making a giant “circuit board” chart with squares or diamonds to contain the if/then question, and yes/no arrows that lead to the next step in the process, might help you map that out. I’m sorry this employee is unable to grasp the nuances the way you need, but if you want the help to be semi-independent, I don’t see a way around spelling out the process in greater detail. Good luck. Let us know what you decided to do.

  164. mouth*

    What I would do to get a job in an office where I don’t have to sit next to a person that clears their throat every 20 seconds.

    No, I can’t move my desk.

    Yes, I wear headphones plenty of time, but it would be nice to just enjoy the street noise and quiet without music OR throat clearing.

    When I was first moved to this area, I asked Throat Clearer if he needed to get some tea. Once he declined I knew I was doomed.

  165. New AP*

    Does anyone have any resources or readings on why teams should set norms?

    I’m an assistant principal at an elementary school–the staff here is very collaborative and surface-level nice, but they’re not great at setting expectations and boundaries for working together (which they do frequently in grade level teams). Honestly, thats true across our district, and we’re in Week 4 of the school year and feeling it. I know how to facilitate conversations and spaces for norm-setting, but I’m looking for something that gets at why it’s an important part of building team culture, especially since we have a tendency to just jump into the work, which works until it doesn’t.

  166. Kaden Lee*

    Friend of mine is responsible for interviewing an intern and asked a group chat what to ask in the interview. Different friend said “test his critical thinking by asking why manholes are round and follow the logic and train of thought, you’ll see him under stress & get a peek into how he thinks”. I’ve gotten a reputation for understanding professionalism (99% thanks to this blog) and I piped up “no no don’t do that, ask questions targeted to what the intern will be doing and about things you wish you’d known about before you started so you can get an idea of his experience with those things”.

    Basically: which one of us is right? (If it’s me, then full shout out to Allison and the commenters here)

    1. The Other Dawn*

      You’re right, IMO. Unless the job is for road work where they’ll have to crawl down a manhole, I don’t see how it’s relevant. Or if it’s a job making manhole covers.

    2. CB*

      You’re right. Personally, I’d think some weird thoughts about the person that suggested it because the manhole question is all over the internet and super passe.

      1. LCL*

        …and I’m not convinced the top reason given (because they won’t fall into the vault) is the only reason. They are round because the vaults they are covering are round. There are also square and rectangular vault covers, which of course are used to cover square and rectangular vaults.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Or maybe the reason vaults are round is that manhole covers are round.

          I don’t even buy the answer that round covers can’t fall into the hole. It might be a bonus, but I put my money on manufacturing processes on round covers being easier and more controllable than processes on square covers, and on materials issues that make flaws more likely in corners.

        2. Uncivil Engineer*

          I know this is totally not your point but I must chime in. The structures under the round manhole covers are not round, they are rectangular. There is sometimes a round tube between the cover and the rectangular box depending on how deep the box is. There certainly are rectangular lids but they tend to be attached on one side with hinges so they open like a hatch door. They’re not used as often because the hinges rust and get stuff stuck in them so they require way more maintenance than a round manhole cover.

      2. The OG Anonsie*

        Right? The only thing you’re gonna get out of me with that question is the face and tone I use when I am doing my best to not tell you what I really think.

        1. Kaden Lee*

          (Honestly that was my face too. “What the heck is wrong with you, no wonder you had trouble finding a job.”)

    3. Undine*

      I hate those kinds of questions. They feel like the interviewer is walking around saying, “I’ve got a seecret!”

  167. Oscar Martinez*

    Hi everyone, I’m a new commenter around here but I’ve been lurking around for sometime now :)
    So…does the lack of general structure in a small business employment situation bother anyone else? I’m currently in one, and the good things about it are so fantastic, but the bad things about it seem hopelessly awful. Is this a common sentiment?

    1. KR*

      I worked in food service in a small business and it drove me bananas. I had a manager but the owners were also popping in and out making rules and assigning work, and there was someone who used to be our manager who wasn’t but she still called the shots sometimes, and there was also senior employees who didn’t have any official duty as a team lead but acted like it and we we’re expected to treat them like team leads sometimes but not all the time. Maddening.

      1. Oscar Martinez*

        :( That sounds maddening!! Was customer-facing food service situation, or a food distribution sort of thing where you worked in an office…?

    2. H.C.*

      This definitely is a “your mileage may vary” situation, depending on one’s preference for structure v. improvising. Now that I’m working in a large county-level government, I think I’d actually prefer a smaller sized employer where I don’t have to get multiple reviews & approvals for every project / expense.

      1. Oscar Martinez*

        Right, this is definitely one of those things that I love about the small business employer. I love the autonomy I have over my projects, for sure. Do you have any opinions about…say, clarity of management’s communications, and how that sometimes becomes the burden of the employee rather than the responsibility of the employer? Or maybe is that something you still face at a larger employer?

        1. H.C.*

          One trick I use is to get everything in writing, whether asking colleagues/managers to send information via email, or I’d email me them with a “Following up from our conversation/conference call/meeting/etc., here’s [[specific action X, Y and Z]]” so that expectations are clear (or corrected if I was mistaken.)

    3. T3k*

      I’ve worked with two small (less than 10 employees) businesses. One was set up well: despite regular turnover and hiring fresh grads, they had a great system in place that made it run well and it never felt truly chaotic.

      The second place though, there was no hope. It was a family run business that refused to fire a member who didn’t want to do their job, others were grumpy and would get into yelling matches, and when I gave suggestions on streamlining things, nobody cared to try it.

    4. NoodleMara*

      I’ve found working for a smaller business that communication is terrible. In general there aren’t a ton of systems in place because people have worked there a long time and just know what to do. Most of the major decisions also have to go through one person, who is incredibly busy and very bad at getting answers back to you.

      It’s definitely a YMMV experience. I don’t like it as much because it’s a rural area where many of the people who work there went to high school together. I’m much younger than most of my coworkers, have much different goals in life and don’t know all the unspoken rules, even after three years here. Some people might love it but I’m trying to leave because I’m not getting paid enough for the things I’m doing. People don’t generally leave the company that much because there’s not a lot of work in the area.

  168. Fabulous*

    I keep getting ahead of myself. I know I’m going to be moving in maybe a year or two (some things need to happen first – like say, 3 things – and I haven’t even gotten to #2 yet) but I can’t help wanting to get a jump-start. I keep looking for jobs already in my “new” location and finding some GREAT prospects that not only align better with what I want to do long-term, but also pay substantially more than what I make now. But I know I can’t apply for anything yet because it’d be almost a 2 hour commute and that’s just ridiculous. It’d also just be dumb to move before the things happen, not to mention I only just bought my house last October and I’m still getting settled there!

    It’s incredibly frustrating to want to start something when I literally can’t yet. I know I need to stick it out and just wait, but I can’t help myself looking at jobs and new houses!

    2. krysb*

      I’m like this about grad school. If I get a certain new position with my company, I will push grad school until 2020. If I don’t, maybe I’ll go next year. The thing is, I want to go to grad school internationally (a program in Ireland is my current favorite), but I know it will cost me about $10,000 just to ship my dogs over, and I’d also like a decent nest egg on top of that. Of course, if I stay for a few more years, I might as well buy the property I live on and rent it out when I leave. I have specific plans that can only be triggered once certain criteria are met, and the uncertainty drives me nuts.

  169. Al the Bean Counter*

    I’m in accounting/finance and working on my resume for an open position.
    Is it OK to list financial figures to show the scope of my responsibility, or is that too sensitive for my (publicly traded) current employer? Eg: Managed yearly PI for $xm of inventory, analyzed $x of chocolate teapot charges weekly, responsible for a budget of $x. Employer is in a widely different field (service vs mfg) but I wasn’t sure if it would look poorly on my discretion?

    1. Fabulous*

      I feel like that’s the “ideal” accomplishment format I always see in resume advice, but I get how it could be sensitive information. I can understand including it in resumes that are sent directly to employers, but maybe not posted on Careerbuilder or other job sites.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      I think this is highly industry specific. Maybe ask a mentor or respected colleague in your industry?

  170. alexa, set timer for ten minutes*

    How do you handle someone who accepts a position, seems excited, and then sends email 24 hours before they’re supposed to start saying they have to decline the position?

    So far I’m ignoring it but it feels unkind not to warn the person that this kind of behavior isn’t going to get them good results in the working world. This person has never had a professional job before.

    Any opinions, hivemind?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      By “ignoring it,” do you mean you’re not responding but are frantically trying to find someone to fill the position? I know it’d be difficult to find someone last-minute, but the person has already said they are declining (yes, totally scummy to accept and then decline), so it seems they aren’t going to show up to the first day of work. And would you really want that person there after all this?

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        I would assume by ‘ignoring it’, alexa means that they’re not going to respond and not that they’re going to pretend it didn’t happen.

        I think it’s best practices to acknowledge that you received the e-mail. Anything beyond that would be a kindness to the candidate. If you’re feeling magnanimous go for it. But it’s not your problem to solve for them.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think this needs to be a teachable moment. Just say “Thanks for letting us know” and move on.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      Eh I wouldn’t. I think it’s more likely that something about their circumstances changed and they handled it poorly than that they’re just being a turd for no reason, so I would do one of two things. One is let it go and just say “sorry to hear that” or something else final.

      The other is you have some surprise and concern and say something along the line of “this is really short notice and you seemed excited about the position before. Is everything ok?” I would personally do this just to gather information so I knew how to characterize it to other people, not necessarily to try to hand hold them back into the job. The tone is “I assume you wouldn’t do this unless some terrible emergency had just recently happened and you sent me a non-explanation only because you are so terrible flustered by said emergency.” It sort of prompts them to correct you in a gentler (and IMO, more effective) way than just going “wtf” would. If they genuinely didn’t know better, it’ll clue them in. If they know and don’t care, it’ll make them feel slightly embarrassed. Win win.

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      She probably got an offer for her top-choice job right after accepting your offer. I can’t blame her for doing that. In fact, Alison hasn’t taken issue with similar circumstances, as long as the person is aware that they’ve burned a bridge with that company. I agree with fposte: this isn’t a teachable moment. The person most likely accepted a job that’s better for her. She’s getting great results in the working world. Realistically, should people turn down last-minute offers for dream jobs because they’ve already accepted offers for jobs they’re lukewarm about? It’s better that she told you before she even started.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Well, in theory, people shouldn’t accept offers for jobs they’re lukewarm about. But in practice, we all know that sometimes we have to, because there isn’t anything else, and we need to eat.

        Still, it seems like the courteous thing to do would have been to ask for time to consider the offer in the first place, rather than accepting it with excitement; and then get back to the other company quickly saying, “I’ve received a hard offer that I haven’t replied to yet. Can you tell me what your schedule looks like for making a decision?” Which hopefully prompts them to give you an answer about your candidacy at Dream Job before you have to give Lukewarm Job a definite yes or no in the first place.

  172. Patiently trying to find a solution*

    We don’t have an art department, per se, so I have to work with the teapot graphical analysis department to get any graphics that I need for marketing. The guy that does the graphics is a generally nice guy, but highly impatient when it comes to work.

    He’s got the fastest computer in the office (recent gen of i7, 32 GB of RAM, Video card with 2GB of RAM). Still, if the computer doesn’t jump to his bidding the minute he hits the enter key, he will continue to hit the enter key until the computer either obeys, crashes, or reboots itself. Then he complains that we’ve given him a bad computer.

    We’ve tried explaining to him that the problem is the end user, not the computer, but he’s not believing us.

    Anyone else deal with this before? How did you solve it?

    1. KR*

      My boss used to default to the whole, “This PC is processing 1747384 million things at once when you click a button. It’s not going to be instantaneous and you have to be patient. This is perfectly fine for your job and is the nicest PC we are able to issue you.” Also, are you able to do a benchmark speed test (kind of like the product passmark offers where it shows you a score?) to show him just how fast his PC is compared to others in the office? I had luck with telling an employee her PC ranked among the best on the floor. She went from complaining every time her PC lagged a second to saying how fast it was and how happy she was with it. Other than that you might just have to stop responding to his complaints. When he puts in a ticket/starts whining, tell him you’ve already discussed the issue and still cannot issue him another computer and he needs to be patient with his computer.

    2. Chaordic One*

      It’s always easier to blame the computer and not the end user. And even if it is the end user’s fault, it’s still easier (and sometimes wiser) to blame the computer.

    3. Floundering Mander*

      I’ll bet he’s one of those people who start stabbing the “open” button on the train before it’s even stopped moving. Dude, the driver has to do a visual check and then unlock the door. Stabbing the button a million times won’t make that happen any faster.

      Sorry, pet peeve!

  173. anonforthispost*

    Is it bad to still be 30something and still live with your parents? I’ve had some co-workers make fun of/smirk over it when I tell them, but I’m honest and not going to lie. I moved back in with my Mom when my Dad got sick and later passed away. Then my Mom was in the hospital and had health issues, so I took care of her. (I don’t tell people this- I don’t want to.) The main thing is that I can’t afford to be on my own right now. Does anyone else deal with this?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think as long as you have legitimate reasons (sounds as if you do), then there’s no shame in it. Not that people should really be making fun of anyone for living at home anyway, but I think it originally came from the notion that it was “failure to launch” or “arrested development” or just fear of independence. But I know people in your situation (caretaking) and others who are just trying to save money to buy their own place later.

    2. It's an Anonymous Day*

      I feel for you so much anon. Due to various health issues, my mom moved in with my husband and I ‘temporarily’. That was 15 years ago. People can be very judgmental nowadays about living with a parent! I don’t want to discuss my mother’s intimate health issues with strangers, but it seems in some circles it’s considered almost inappropriate to live with an older family member. When anyone makes a ridiculous comment, I respond with a frosty silence and a glare. If they don’t immediately back off, I add “That’s awfully presumptuous of you given that you don’t know the situation.” No explanation, no details. They don’t need to know and I don’t have to tell them, so they can just pull that foot out of their throat or choke.

    3. overeducated*

      No, it’s not bad. I think it’s honorable that you moved back to help your parents, and love and sacrifice are higher values than independence. It is also getting more common for our generation to not be in a financial position to move back out.

      It’s understandable you don’t want to tell your coworkers a personal back story that would probably wipe the smirks off their faces, but it’s really rude of them to be making fun of you in the first place for something that’s none of their business. I’m sorry they’re jerks.

    4. yo Anon*

      Living with your folks for financial reasons or to help take care of them are all NOBLE and COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE reasons to do so. Living with your folks because you want your mom or dad to cook and do laundry for you and avoid looking for a job are not.

      I think you are totally fine!

    5. nep*

      Don’t let others define bad or good. What works for you works for you. To hell with what others think, I say. Not looking to be harsh here — I am with you. You are doing what works for you, for your reasons (the only reasons that matter). I once read on line something to the effect of: I used to worry what people thought, till I tried to pay my bills with their opinions.

    6. Stellaaaaa*

      It’s not bad at all. I’m currently living with my mom. My area never recovered after Hurricane Sandy (the businesses just up and left and went to NYC when the local buildings were destroyed). The job market here is really heavy on small startups that almost never last. If you don’t luck into a teaching job or have an affinity for bartending, you don’t have many options. I finally found a promising position after 10 years of trying to break into the post-recession workforce, and my student loans are oppressive to say the least (they can’t be deferred or forgiven). My gramps is in his 80s and is sitting on a bunch of money that his Depression-era disposition won’t let him part with. I don’t see the point in struggling to pay my own rent when I’ll be able to buy a house when Gramps’ time comes.

      Footnote: most of the people in my social sphere who live on their own are still getting significant support from their parents. If that’s not the case, their parents might have paid for college or a nice car or some other expense that you or I are currently covering for ourselves. It’s really easy to have an awesome apartment when you don’t have student loans or car payments.

      1. Julianne*

        This is a good point. I live in a very high COL area, and my husband and I now make enough combined to live comfortably. However, when we were still getting established financially, we had some help from our parents. His parents “sold” him their old car (for $1), and my parents gave us money to put towards the purchase of my car. His parents also loaned him some money for grad school (beyond what we could afford to pay out of pocket). We are very lucky to have families who were willing and able to help at times when we had big expenses that would have been very difficult to manage on our budget!

    7. Anecdata*

      And for what it’s worth, the US is a huge outlier globally in terms of expectations that adults live alone/independently. I’m an American who has been living abroad most of my adult life, and I’ve met so many more people who are HORRIFIED that anyone would live without their parents/brothers/2nd cousins, than Americans who think it’s strange to live with family beyond spouses and minor children.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Absolutely! My kids and I live with my brother and sister-in-law. People look at us funny, but none of us care. We’re following the model most of humanity has used for most of history, and it works for us. I’ve never understood how people can stand to live with the typical American “nuclear family only” household, but if it works for them, great. I just don’t think it could ever work for me.

  174. just vent*

    I would pay real money for a certification you could get for a company you’re thinking about accepting an offer from that said “This company contains no people that are persistent throat clearers, or at least you will never, ever, in your entire life at this company, have to be within earshot of it.”

    No, I can’t move my desk. Yes, I wear headphones a lot, but I wish I could just listen to the quiet street noise without all that throat clearing.

    Once I was moved to this desk and I asked him if he needed some tea, and he said he was fine… that was the beginning of doom.

    (i apologize if this got posted twice…. I thought I posted it but then I couldn’t find it.)

    1. Callalily*

      My boss sadly has a tea for this… that smells like death and does nothing to help him because there is nothing physically wrong with him – he just has tourettes (like my husband, so I get driven absolutely bonkers by throat/nose noises all hours of the day).

      1. just vent*

        wait, so he’s a throat clearer AND he drinks death tea? or does the death tea actually make his throat clearing go away?

        I think i’d rather have the death tea over the throat clearing, but i’m not sure.

  175. FemaleProgrammer*

    It’s been a long time since I’ve looked for a job, but I’m looking now. I do software development and know several languages. Can anyone recommend good companies to work at in the Portland, OR area? Telecommuting would also work. I’m trying to find a good long term place.

    Also, any ideas on what kind of additional training would be likely to impress companies? I’ve been thinking of taking some online courses at a local community college, but I’m not sure that will be as useful for “Sure, I can use this language -I took a class”.

    1. S*

      Unless you’re considering learning a language that you can get certified in, like Java, the best way to show a prospective employer that you know a language is to have a portfolio of things you’ve built with that language.

  176. R.T.*

    This is a bratty question, but here goes:

    I am being semi-recruited for a great position in my medium-sized city. (As in, not via a formal recruiter, but a distant acquaintance contacting me about the opportunity and immediately being offered an essentially third-round interview with the big boss).

    One of the prominently featured perks in the job listing is “very generous relocation benefits.”

    My question is, is there any way to capture these in some way if offered the position? For context:

    — If I accept the job, I WOULD actually move, but within the city closer to the new location.
    — The salary structure is really different; my current job has a high base salary and a token annual bonus, and this position has a low base salary and large annual bonus. My bills are structured for my current compensation structure, so I actually could use some sort of transition money to re-work things.

    I’m stuck thinking about how to frame this. One approach could simply be to ask for a signing bonus and leave everything else out of it, but that sounds mortifying to me (is that a normal thing to ask for?). Or, I could be totally honest and say something like “Is there anyway I could apply relocation benefits to a move within the city to have a move convenient commute?” Should I consider bringing up the difference in compensation structures potentially causing hardship given some fixed costs I have? That also sounds embarrassing.

    Judging based on the process so far, me already being located in City X has no bearing on their decision; i.e., I can’t imagine a scenario where I’d get the job so that they can save on relocation benefits by hiring a local. I truly think I could be the best candidate out of a robust national search, and would only get the offer if that was the case.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t think you can reasonably make any request to access relocation dollars. The purpose of that statement is to assure non-local candidates that the company will handle the cost of moving. You don’t have that cost, and it would come across (to me, were I the hiring manager) as very unusual and off-putting if you made that ask.

      Whether you can negotiate a signing bonus depends on your industry. In mine, that’s not a thing (at least not at my level; it may be for executive-level staff).

      I do think that, even in the case that signing bonuses aren’t common in your industry, you may be able to negotiate a small bonus to “bridge” you to their compensation structure. (I’m assuming that there’s a timing element to the compensation — i.e., that you’ll immediately receive a base salary that, by the end of the year, will account for 25% of your total compensation, and as the year progresses receive your bonuses/commissions that will make up the majority of your pay).

      1. R.T.*

        Victoria, thanks! You pretty much validated my intuition. If and when I receive details, I’ll figure out if the switch really would be challenging from a financial timing perspective, and then broach the issue under those terms if at all. Thank you again.

  177. Anonymous1*

    If I sent in a question about two weeks ago and Alison still hasn’t replied, does that mean she’s not going to? Was my question not compelling enough?

    1. Claire*

      Give her some time- she has been busy with moving into a new house and fixing it up. It might take some time for her to answer the questions and go through everything.

      1. Morning Glory*

        Also – AA get a lot more questions than she can answer. She has said after a few weeks it’s fine to post your question in the open thread if it’s still relevant to you.

        But it’s really not something to take personally if she does not respond, which it sounds like you may be doing a bit.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      My queue is horribly backlogged so the fact that it hasn’t been answered doesn’t mean that it won’t be answered. It can take anywhere from a few days to a few months for me to answer things (I’ve been known to answer things that are months old). I get 60+ letters a day so that impacts things!

      But you can always email me to check if it’s in my “to definitely answer” queue or not — I’m always willing to tell you whether it is or if you should go ahead and post in an open thread.

  178. bridget*

    I’m a billable-hour associate lawyer and just finalized my time entry for August – it was my highest-hour month I’ve had since I started about a year ago, by far – I spent about 215 hours on client work* (paying and pro bono), and a full 35 more hours on recruiting (OCI across the country, as well as way too many in-office interviews, debrief sessions, lunches, and dinners with law students). This is my first OCI season in biglaw – is this typical, especially for someone who isn’t even on the hiring committee? It doesn’t count toward my hours for a bonus, and I really couldn’t afford the time suck in a busy work month. I’m in a small office that is growing quickly, and there just often aren’t enough bodies to throw in interviews.

    *215 is a lot for me historically, although I know plenty of biglaw people who will pooh-pooh that paltry count.

  179. hense*

    I had to fire a worker. Has anyone ever had to fire a worker and had bad feelings over it? This worker had a marijuana cigarette and was smoking it in the car owned by the company. Other workers who were in the same car as passengers complained about the drug and the smell. Marijuana is not allowed here and in our country. The police stopped the car and he was arrested for the drug. The others in the car only did not also get arrested because there was only one cigarette and the police had seen him with it and they all passed a drug hair test besides him. He was fired for smoking the cigarette on working time in a car from the company. I feel badly because he needs for medical. But he should not have smoked it on working time in a car from the company with other workers as passengers. So I feel badly but I also agree with him being fired. Has other managers felt this way also?
    [My apology if anything does not understanding. My mother tongue is not English.]

    1. KR*

      Hi there. I think I would feel terribly if it was because he was smoking in his off work time at home just because I think as long as you’re not high at work, you’re not doing something wrong. But in this case he should have known what he was doing was wrong and you really had no choice but to fire him. You didn’t fire him – he fired himself.

    2. fposte*

      I think it’s normal to feel bad when you have to fire somebody, but this seems a pretty clear case. You can’t do something illegal in a company car during work hours in front of co-workers and expect to keep your job, and he put his co-workers in a horrible position.

    3. Also a manager*

      I felt bad the first time I had to fire someone. She was caught stealing money and at the end of her dismissal meeting she was taken out of the building by the police in handcuffs. She entered into a plea deal for several felonies and did time in jail. I still felt so terrible and awkward because of how much she cried and how much she apologized. I know it justified but I still felt bad. I still don’t like firing anyone even when it was justified.

      At the end of the day, he did it to himself. I have no objection to marijuana or anything, but it is illegal where you are and he used it in front of colleagues on company time. They could have been arrested along with him (not saying it is right, just that it could have happened). Also, he drove while using it. Imagine he had been sipping alcohol instead? No one would think anyone should be allowed to drink alcohol while driving. Like I said I don’t have any problem with marijuana but using it while driving is not responsible.

  180. babblemouth*

    I have just had the worst week. Problems after problems popped up, on top of an already very busy schedule. In the process of solving problems, more problems came up, and I have pissed off five different people without meaning to. I am exhausted, but because I am late on three different projects, I am going to work through the weekend to finish it all.

    I don’t particularly need advice, I just needed to vent.

    1. Close Bracket*

      That sounds though. I’m sorry. I hope you finish everything you need to and that those people get over it.

  181. Jessi*

    Does anyone have any terrible management advice for my friend:

    Quality control was a huge issue and she ended up giving both future credit as the product wasn’t 100% (she reached out to management) and then a complete refund as the product later completely failed purpose and was unusable.

    Her management raked her over the coals about giving a discount, AND about bothering him when he wasn’t at work even though he is the man in charge and wants control over all. My friend is now searching out a new position but has to deal with management who think they can’t possibly have less than perfect products, and who don’t seem to care that this will ruin their companies reputation. This of course will ruin their customer base (which isn’t that big in a small niche community) and their profit margin…….. Advice?

      1. Jessi*

        I completely agree with you! and my friend is job hunting but she just can’t up and quit so she has to handle it as long as she is there and I was hoping for some tips and tricks to help her

  182. sheep jump death match*

    I’m using a throwaway account because I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong at my new job and I’m frustrated to tears.

    All of my new co-workers (and most of our clients) are from a different culture than me. I talked about this in the interview and said I was worried about making missteps with our clients, but my new boss said she didn’t think it was a problem and my clients have been very happy with me…but multiple coworkers have complained to my boss about how rude and disrespectful I am, particularly when I ask them to do something. One said I “went absolutely nuts” about a project (that our boss had told both of us was my responsibility, and that I should give assignments to my coworker). All I remember is asking her to do something by saying, “Instead of X, could you do Y right now before the client gets here?”

    I honestly wrote that incident off as coworker weirdness, but it’s happened twice since then WITH OTHER PEOPLE and recently my boss told me that even though she believes I don’t intend to be rude, I can’t ever do it again, and she didn’t have any suggestions about what to do instead. I had the idea that I just wouldn’t ask for things from coworkers for a while until I figured out how to be polite in this culture, but now my boss says I am not being a team player.

    I honestly have no idea how to resolve this.

    1. fposte*

      Yikes, that’s hard; I’m sorry. You mean “culture” as racial, ethnic, or geographic, not just a personality divide, right? If so, is there a cultural insider that you can reach out to outside of work to give you some guidance?

      In the meantime, watch your coworkers like a hawk; a nice, friendly hawk. How do they interact with each other? Do they ask for stuff differently than you do? If they ask for stuff just the same, how are they interacting the rest of the time–are they doing camaraderie-building work at arrival, at lunch, etc. that you could do more of?

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Is there one coworker that you do get along with? Or even your manager… someone you can trust to ask for assistance. Ask them where you are misstepping and what you could possibly do to make improvement.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I don’t know what to say. It sounds like “gas-lighting.” Do any other AAM readers think so?

    4. Ann O.*

      This sounds like a direct/indirectness cultural norms issue, which can be pretty tough. If you haven’t done so already, read relevant modern ethnographies about the culture if you can. Read them critically–ethnographies are a starting point and not an end point–but they can help give you a framework to understand your coworkers’ POV. If you have close friends of the relevant culture, you could see if they’d be up for roleplaying scenarios to try and help you understand what would have been a more culturally normative approach.

      And yeah, paying close attention to how your coworkers’ request things from you and interact with each other will also help.

    5. rj*

      Does your office have an ombudsperson?
      Does your office have anyone from your culture? (I am guessing, based on how you are portrayed, that you are from a different racial/ethnic background). They would be the absolute best to help you.

  183. MuseumChick*

    Very late to the game but I need to vent this. I’ve been at my current job for a year (my pervious two jobs where temp jobs) and I’m thinking I made a big mistake accepting it I was hired as a Chocolate Teapot Curator but I’m being utilized as more of Event Assistant. I have zero background in event work and even specifically asked about how much I would be involved with them in my interview. I hate to start job hunting again but I just cannot take it.

    1. babblemouth*

      That sucks so much, I’m sorry. How much are you able to push back on the event duties in the meantime? Could you try for an internal transfer to something a bit more like you own preferences?

  184. MsChanandlerBong*

    I sent my resume in response to an ad for a volunteer coordinator position. It’s unpaid, but the nonprofit is close to my heart. The contact person responded and asked me to meet with her Thursday or Friday. I replied within a few hours to indicate my availability, but I didn’t hear back from her. I came down with an illness, so I sent a second email saying I’d like to meet next week so I don’t spread my illness (the org provides housing for people receiving medical treatment, so they don’t need my germs swirling around). No response.

    Should I send an email or call next week to follow up? I normally would just leave the ball in her court, but I just got a new email address and am wondering if my replies aren’t getting to her for some reason. I sent a few test emails to people I know, and they went through, so it doesn’t seem likely, but I’d hate for her to think I am blowing off her original message.

    1. Lynn*

      It’s a volunteer position for a non-profit; it’s safe to assume the person hiring for this job is fairly overworked or a volunteer with other commitments. It sounds like she emailed you, you replied that day, became sick, sent a second message a day or two later, and didn’t hear anything else that week. That doesn’t sound unusual. I would give it a little time. Pragmatically, if you’re email isn’t going through, a third isn’t going to help. If next week goes by without a response, a quick phone call to say you’re feeling well and are still interested in meeting would seem appropriate.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Thanks. I wouldn’t normally expect a response so quickly, but she sent me an email on Tuesday asking to meet on Thursday or Friday. I couldn’t schedule any client meetings until I heard back from her and knew what day/time we were meeting.

  185. Mehkitty84*

    TGIF Everyone! Also, a much deserved 3 day weekend for us U.S. folks. My question is for those who deal with upset and difficult people. I am now in my first HR Manager role and have always dealt with the disgruntled (10 years in retail before HR) but have noticed something recently. When listening to employees who are venting their frustration I remain calm, but as it escalates I notice my voice can break, I stammer, or I physically start shaking a bit. I know things like don’t interrupt the employee, let them vent, keep calm, tell them that you understand their frustration, or that you apologize that they feel that way. However, is there any good tips out there on what else to say or do? Any book advice on how to deal with difficult people? I tend to take these things to heart even though I may not even be the root of what happened or why the employee is frustrated. Thanks All! (Did I mention TGIF and yay 3 day weekend!!!!)

    1. NaoNao*

      One of my tricks is to imagine them as a child and let any maternal energy I can access flow through me and calm me.
      I also tend to use non verbal “agreement” tones “mmm.” or “hmm” to indicate I’m listening and they are heard, so they don’t feel they have to raise their voice, swear, or other things to literally be heard
      Another thing you can do is use the therapists’ “I see.” or “I hear you.” Sometimes that will lower the temperature of the room.
      You can also show sympathy “Wow, that sounds very difficult.”

      The book I *always* recommend to people dealing with difficult people is “How to talk so children listen and listen so children talk.” I know! But most people, when angry, do revert to a child like state.

      The key takeaway from that book in case it’s out of print, is to name the emotion neutrally. “You’re upset.” rather than try to talk them out of it or down. You can also echo their feelings or the situation “You feel like Bob is unfairly compensated compared to you.”

      A lot of time being truly heard and understood helps the person calm down a lot.

  186. Rose*

    I’m about to turn 30 and was recently nominated to a professional council that includes a lot of women who are way better dressed than I am. (It doesn’t help that I’ve put on about 40 pounds in the last year after being diagnosed with a serious medical issue.) I know I need to work on my self-confidence — I’m sure they care far less about my clothes than I do! — but I have some money set aside, and I think it might be time to update my wardrobe. I’ve been shopping at J. Crew factory, ModCloth and eShakti, but where do you find moderately priced, quirky, fun, yet still professional pieces?

      1. Rose*

        I love TJ Maxx! But it can be so hit and miss. I don’t have very much time right now to go sift through what’s on the racks, so I’m hoping to find some places to order online.

    2. Rincat*

      I’ve had some success with Uniqlo for various items, though they run a little small. Loft has good workwear things, and you pretty much never have to pay full price at Loft – check the sales online and in the store. If you can’t find anything you like in store, check online, since the inventory there is much more expansive. Their trousers are nice and you can get a good pair for around $30-50 after the discounts. thredUP also has tons of second-hand items, and my experiences with them have been good…you have to sift through a lot, but at least it’s online and you can just scroll on by. But the quality of the items are better than what you might find at other thrift stores.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      New York & Company has some outlets. I like their basic black pants. They have a bootcut style, which is still my choice for a flattering cut. Old Navy has nice stuff too occasionally. Their Harper pants also come in bootcuts. I’ve tried on their ponte knit blazers and they’re a good fit if you need stretch in the shoulders. You can’t tell they’re knit.

      How about short-sleeved sweaters? They fit like t-shirts but look very polished with nice pants. V-neck sweaters are flattering on all figures. You can always find these at TJ Maxx or Banana Republic outlets.

      1. Stellaaaaa*

        Also, Ann Taylor has a scoop neck t-shirt in a bunch of colors that’s the perfect cut and fit to wear under blazers.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Boden is good for quirky yet professional if you select carefully. Their Ravello tops are a staple in my closet – they have both solid colors and fun prints. Bodenusadotcom.

    5. Chaordic One*

      The other commenters have offered good advice about clothing. Whatever clothes you wear, make sure they fit well and that they’re clean and pressed. Let me suggest that you have a nice haircut and that you consider wearing a nice piece of jewelry. Some days I feet bloated or fat and like nothing in my closet fits well or looks nice, but a nice necklace or a bracelet makes me feel a little better and more dressed up.

    6. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

      I’ve also put on 40 pounds in the past year because of medical issues! Welcome to the club – It’s not fun!
      I have quite a few silk blouses from forever 21 of all places. Their online store has lots more options than the store. Search for silk top or boxy top.
      I’ve also found a few pencil skirts on Amazon. The brand I like is rekucci. They’re pretty flattering.
      I’m trying to keep costs way down because I’m hoping to take this weight off soon, but those outfits don’t look as cheap as they are.

    7. rj*

      one of my coworkers wears a ton of modcloth stuff. I think it’s the coolest. She mixes up quirkier prints for dresses, shirts, etc (and glasses) with plain-colored cardigans, or a solid black dress with statement jewelry (that stuff does not have to be expensive).

      1. rj*

        the cardigans and plain dresses look like they might come from ann taylor, ann taylor loft, the gap, banana republic, old navy, etc

  187. Vicky*

    I have a question…

    I work in an open plan office. A few weeks ago something happened to the door that opens into the office (I sit near it) and now every time the door closes it slams. Very Loudly. Every.time. At first I just endured it until listening to a door slam 50 times a day was really grating on my nerves and making it hard to concentrate (I also have serious audio sensitivity to loud noises so that’s fun) so I went to the office manager and asked him to fix it. They screwed some bolts or something but the door still slams so I started propping it open.

    To date the door has not been fixed. The thing with propping it open is that someone, I don’t know who, has been removing the door stop when I put it up. This is very frustrating. I’ve spoken to other staff I’m not the only person who can’t stand listening to this god damn door slam all day every day!

    When I asked for this to be fixed I said in no uncertain terms that I can’t abide by a door constantly slamming next to my head but nothing has been done. I’ve mentioned it more than once.

    How far should I push this if the issue is not resolved soon? I think it’s a reasonable expectation not to be subject to that kind of noise pollution at work.

    What do you guys think?

    1. LCL*

      It’s not really an office manager problem. It’s a problem for whoever has the responsibility of keeping up the physical part of the office. Find out who that person is and contact them. If the door has a hydraulic closer at the top (a big rectangle perched up there) the closing is adjustable. And they do wear out.
      If the way the building is ventilated has changed you may be SOL and the doorstop your only solution.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        In my office, it would def be the office manager’s job, since it would be that person’s job to contact the building’s facilities manager. If Vicky’s company owns the building, it’s very possible that the office manager would need to hire a contractor to fix the door (which should happen).

        I say, continue to email/ping the OM each time it happens, continue to put the door stop in, and also print out a sign to put on both sides of the door saying something like “This door slams! Please close carefully.” Hopefully, eventually, the OM will get approval to take whatever the next step is in fixing the door.

  188. Snark*

    So I grew a beard lately. Or, really, more of a “I’m not Ryan Gosling buuuuut I do style my facial hair similarly” kind of situation.

    Another contractor in the same office who works for another company just came by and said, “you know, I’d be careful growing a beard if I was you, because some people might find it inappropriate that you’re changing your appearance. Just be careful.”

    My mind is full of WTF right now.

    2. miyeritari*

      You should show up one day at his desk one day. “You know, I’d be careful wearing anything other than green shirts. Some people might find it inappropriate that you’re changing your appearance. Just be careful.”

  189. paul*

    This is the first hurricane response I’ve been involved in and *not* had to deal with a body/questions about a body/carcass by this point. I feel bad that I don’t feel bad for the person that “won” the body pool in our office this time. It’s bad enough with animals–talked to someone with a dead calf in their living room for one of them–but hers was a person (not a storm fatality, but Harvey was preventing anyone from getting to them).

    Also holy crap you forget how hard it is working in an area you don’t normally work in/live in when you don’t know where the hell things are or how to get to them.

    2. fposte*

      Wow, Paul, I’m glad to hear from you. I bet it’s been an intense time; I hope you’ll get some kind of a break soon.

      1. paul*

        we will. We’re not even first responders or anything–we’re doing all our crap remotely and doing phone calls with people needing services. God bless technology!

        I’ve got friends and colleagues down south in person and from what they’re saying it hit hard. Ain’t heard from a colleague from Beaumont since this morning (or last nights I’m fuzzy on time) evacuation and we’re worried about them. Had a child hood friend of mine wind up using his bass boat to get off his upstairs deck thing–he’d hauled it up there the night before just in case and a good thing he did. Another guy we work with sometimesl ocally is down doing boat rescues. Talked to him last night a bit on FB and he seemed bushed :/

        and now there’s that damn Irma in the Atlantic.

  190. Purple snowdrop*

    Silly question:
    My son loves imagining that cardboard boxes are other things (robots, bags, whatever). (Today he’s come home with a box in which he’s written ‘Firstname lastname’s box’.) What do you think he might be when he grows up?

    1. Book Lover*

      Hopefully whatever he wants to be.

      But if he hasn’t read it already, you might find ‘Not a Box’ for him, by Antoinette Portis.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        How did I not know about that book. Ordering now (and a copy for my nieces too for good luck!). Thank you!

        And yes, I hope so :)

    2. Nanc*

      Box designer? Hah! My siblings and I all loved playing with big boxes! I’m a writer (not that kind of writer–I work for a writing agency), on sibling is in financial/accounting technology (with a classics degree!) and the other sibling is in blue collar, outdoor work but is a fantastic photographer and artist. Imagination is a good thing in many jobs so encourage it.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        I just died laughing. He also spends quite a lot of time pretending to be various animals including cats :-D

  191. Me--Blargh!*

    Slightly off-topic to start, sorry. So on Wednesday, I went to the [peaceful] anti-Trump protest (he was in town that day). There were at least a couple hundred of us–we filled a whole block on both sides of the street, far more people than I figured, yay! I am in this picture; see if you can find me! http://tinyurl.com/ybzz3y4o

    The night before, I had checked my email and found a message from a guy I’ll call Tony that I hadn’t seen for hours because Chrome decided it didn’t want to load my email for some stupid reason. Tony is a partner at a marketing firm where I applied for an SEO content writing job. I emailed back that I would not be available by phone the next day (I didn’t say why), but I would check my email. I checked it about halfway through the protest. Tony wanted me to come in the next morning so I did.

    The company is like a franchise marketing firm (he called it a “dealership model,”) with the headquarters here and various other offices, including one in L.A.. It’s teeny–the building has several other businesses in it, and it’s not that big. But it’s in a rather posh business area of town. It seems kind of startup-ish. He said they have a ping-pong table; they go bowling, etc. Yeah, whatever; I need money, not ping pong!

    I had to submit a blog post with keywords on a particular subject, and it was very much like the content job I did in 2011. Easy–it took me like an hour and a half to write the post. It only pays $12 an hour (to start, Tony said and yes I asked because I have no f*cks left to give) and they don’t have health insurance yet but he said they are getting ready to start it with a direct primary care company.

    That is ridiculously low pay, and I’m leery of the healthcare thing because those models do not cover any kind of hospitalization. But if they offer, I’m considering taking it because it is NOT an admin job. I’m thoroughly sick of doing admin work, and I’ve reached a point where I can’t go any higher due to my dyscalculia. All upper-level admin jobs require accounting, expense/budget, and similar work that I can’t do. But I am also soooooo sick of filing, phones, etc. I feel like if I took another job like that I’d die inside. I’m overqualified for the shit jobs and underqualified for the better ones in almost all ways.

    Tony said there are opportunities to move to different aspects of the business if we wanted to, like say if I wanted to learn about something else, and he talked a lot about how they’re growing and have low turnover. I feel like I’m a good fit for this job, but it’s so low-paid I can barely live on it, let alone save up any money to leave. But I need a job. I’d be surprised if I even got it–I almost feel overqualified for it.

    He asked me what I’ve been doing to support myself, I guess meaning what are you doing to keep skills up, etc. But the question seemed so weirdly worded I stumbled over it. He also said I wouldn’t be there if I hadn’t passed the sniff test on the blog post, so that was a good sign, I suppose.

    One strange thing–as I was leaving, a woman from the call center part of the business came outside along with me and she said jokingly, “Can I go with you?” I laughed and asked if she was having a bad day and she said, “No, no, haha!” It made me wonder…..but call centers suck and it was almost-Friday, so I decided not to read too much into it.

    I don’t know. I can’t get anywhere in this market, and I can’t afford to move so I don’t know what to do. I just found another job in L.A. I could do, but I feel like I’m wasting my time applying because I am not there and nobody wants to hire me from here. There’s nothing else to apply to here this week. Someone I met at the protest told me about a job opening on the state website, but when I checked it wasn’t there, so they may have pulled it already. I feel so trapped here. I would like to make more money, but if I got another shitty admin job, I think I would just cry. Why did the universe start moving and then stall!? What am I not doing!?

    God, I really want to go stuff my face with Five Guys in consolation. I don’t even care about my workouts–I want a big greasy fatty grilled hotdog with grilled onions dammit! And fries! All the fries!

    1. KR*

      That’s a really hard situation. I think I would take it because a job is better than no job, but you know what you need better than I do. Also, recognized you in the picture.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking.
        I know my sign is a misquote but I was thinking future, so I changed “are belong to us” to “will belong to us.” :)

    2. NaoNao*

      Finally! A nibble!
      Well, my thoughts are: all you need to get a job is…a job. It’s just like dating. Once you start with someone, all these dudes (or dudettes) come out of the woodwork. You’re America’s Most Dateable. Where were all these people when you had to go to yet another event solo?!
      So, yes, I would take it.
      If you’re not religious and astrology doesn’t bother you, for what it’s worth, Mercury is in retrograde and that’s messin’ up a lot of stuff :)

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I thought the same thing–being hired as a writer, ANY writer, gives me credibility as a writer, yes kind of like being someone’s date means I’m dateable. So I do kind of hope I get the job.

        Although my anxiety is ramping up again, dammit, because how the hell am I going to get out of here?!?!?!?!!?! Also, ugh dating. Where are all the people, period?!? Not here!

        I’m not particularly religious but I don’t believe in astrology. I do read my horoscope for fun (it’s hilarious). Mercury is probably crabby because it’s hot so close to the sun. ;)

        1. Overeducated*

          I agree with NaoNao and hope you get the job. But I totally sympathize with the frustration of wanting to set up your life in ONE step, not letting it be a long term process with a bunch of steps. You want to get to the goal already, not just on the path!

  192. Name changed to protect the innocent*

    I was recently talking to a colleague who continues at my former workplace. She is a department head, and due to some changes in her department, two long-time (40-plus year) contract employees will lose their jobs. It is not a decision she made; when the top boss at this small family-run company announced the change, she told him (the boss) that he had to tell these two ladies that they were being let go. He did not, and they found out through word-on-the-street. It was the last straw for her at a very stressful workplace, and she put in her notice. Do you think it would have been more appropriate for the boss to have let them know?

    1. LCL*

      40 years? As in forty, four-zero? Of course top boss should have delivered the news. He probably lost his nerve and couldn’t face them.

      1. Name changed to protect the innocent*

        Thanks, that’s what both she and I thought. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn’t being too sensitive. That attitude was one of many reasons I left that place.

  193. Awkward*

    Slightly weird question.

    One of my old bosses ran me out of the company we worked at. We started out as coworkers, but didn’t get along. When our boss left, he was promoted because he was senior and became my new boss. He did a lot of sneaky stuff to make me look like a bad employee on paper: hired new guys, reassigned my work to them, then put me on PIPs for not working enough.

    Flash forward 18 months. I’m helping to run a meetup group in our area, and he just joined it and RSVP’d for our next event. I really don’t want anything to do with him. Would I be out of bounds in telling the other people who run the group the story, and ask that he be told to not come due to having a bad history with other members?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      I think you can absolutely push to exclude him from the group. Don’t group organizers have to pay to keep the groups active on the meetup site? You shouldn’t have to pay your own money for a continued association with him, nor should a voluntary social activity be tainted for you.

      1. Awkward*

        The money isn’t coming from me. I help to organize though and I’m good friends with the folks who actually do. Since it’s related to our line of work I’m extra sensitive to my old boss showing up.

        I think it’d be better if I asked the guy who actually pays for it to do it, rather than me. I’m also a little worried that that will make him mad, but he’s already lied to people i work with to get me fired, so it can’t get much worse.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I agree with Stellaaaaa. It’s not out of line to discuss the situation with the other people who run the group and I hope that the group will support you and keep old boss out of the group.

        1. Awkward*

          Thank you! I’m sure I’ll be supported by the head organizers since I’ve known them for 3-4 years. I was just a little nervous about bringing it up, which is why I asked. I have a lot of negative memories surrounding that guy, since he did just about everything short of making provable lies about me to my old job’s upper management and HR. I guess I shouldn’t be worried about damaging my relationship with the old boss, because he already hates me.

          I came up with a script on how to do it, and will ask them face to face at our next event this week.

  194. nep*

    I reckon this is sufficiently work-related. Tips for getting my LinkedIn profile to show up in a Google search? It is top item in other search engines; I see it nowhere on Google. I’ve read many forums / comments on line but I’ve not found anything that helps. My main aim is to displace something else that comes up top of a search of my name.)
    I’ve been on LinkedIn for just over a month — I know, ridiculously late to the LinkedIn party. Is that part of why it’s not showing up?

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      You might need to monkey with your privacy settings. LinkedIn is buggy on mobile and I don’t want to download the app. The only way I can adjust my privacy settings is on the desktop version.

    3. Close Bracket*

      How many connections do you have? Due to how search engines work, the more connections you have, the more links there are to your profile, so the higher up in the results you are.

      1. nep*

        Right — I wondered about that. Just under 50 — so pretty low as yet. Again, late ‘start’. (I don’t think it appears at all; I can Google my name and a couple words from ‘title’ and LinkedIn and it doesn’t appear.)
        Thanks

  195. BrightLights*

    I would love to pick the brain of the collective on advocating for a promotion into a position that doesn’t exist.

    My job description says that I am an expert on teapot handle design and construction and I manage 10 teapot assistants. In addition, my description has me assist in evaluating new methods of designing teapot handles.

    My company is currently piloting a new way of building teapots, so I got involved with testing and recommending particulars relating to teapot handles.

    I became attached to teapot spouts a few months ago because I had transferable experience and spent significant overtime repairing faulty spouts. The new teapot scheme was released to clients and it has not gone well. The spouts were broken in shipping (for reasons unrelated to and unforeseeable in my earlier work) and our clients don’t like the lids.

    I have continued to spend the last month working 80 hour weeks to support the spout division. I am also called upon as a handle expert and others have called me in for critical issues with lids, bodies, teapot painting, and saucers. I am functionally now reporting to 4 different departments, a subject matter expert to the executive team, and a trainer for the lid division. My work is getting assigned by C- and D- level people and I haven’t done any handle design in a couple of weeks.

    In short I am the only employee in the company with a particular skillset that’s clearly needed.

    I want to parlay this into a new job title and promotion. They obviously need what I’m doing but I can’t do it and be an asset to handle design.

    I would love suggestions on how to present my case on this front with my supervisor and upper management, particularly as the rocky release may mean financial trouble for the company and this may not be the best time to ask for a raise. Considering my skillset is very specialized, I don’t even know how to go about identifying a target number.

    1. miyeritari*

      What is your current title? Do you want to become specifically important to the spout division, or are you looking to combine your spout and handle expertise into an even broader category? For example, do you want something to be like Senior Teapot Overseer? Advanced Teapot Manager?

      The best way to address this with your supervisor, I think, would be to point out the additional skills you’ve picked up and how they improved the project. For example: “I’ve expanded my knowledge of teapot spouts to include learning how to make sure teapot spout alignment is within our reasonable goals. I worked on the most recent teapot batch to make sure the spouts were aligned correctly.”

      1. BrightLights*

        I would like to be the liaison between the Handle Division and the Spout Division, at least, and I’ve brought that up to my manager, but go big or go home: Manager of Inter-Teapot Component Design. The spout group makes decisions that affect handles, lids, etc. Though I started as the spout group’s go-to on handles, I’ve become a go-to for lids and teapot painting, which has given me cross-departmental experience such that the VP of Saucers has started pulling me into decisions on saucers.

        I think there is justification for the formation of a new department given that we will be doing new teapot designs and old teapot designs for the next 5 years at least. I am an expert in both. My current manager (who, by the way, is awesome) wants me to continue doing what I am doing within the bounds of the Handle Division. I cannot do good work for Handles when I am doing all of these other things that are getting assigned to me by people two and three levels above my manager, which is why I’m tempted to approach my manager’s manager about that. She already said she wants to talk to me about what I’ve been doing, so I may have an opportunity there. The non-handle people want me to continue doing what I am doing for them, and I find it really enjoyable and fulfilling to be doing that work. I would like to make that official.

        (signing off because the Chief Spout Officer just emailed me to go do something about lids!)

  196. Trixie*

    Prezi and Powerpoint users, would either of these formats work well to create a “Pyramid” board game? Thinking of future office parties and between our tech toys/big screen, I think we could create our slick version. Just not sure which software to use.

    Also, at our last team retreat our group LOVED playing Molkky. Participants could engage while introverts could spectate. Two coworkers even bought their own set! I’ll include link in comment line.

  197. Startup Hell Lisa*

    I keep getting reference calls for someone who resigned a short-term contract position after 2 weeks. No hard feelings about her quick resignation, she was offered a more permanent job and that’s understandable, but I’ve told her I can’t evaluate her performance enough to give a reference after only 2 weeks of work, and I’m still getting all these reference-checking calls… sheesh.

    1. Anono-me*

      I can see were this would be quite irritating for you.

      Are you sure that the former employee is giving your name as an actual reference? Quite a few places have people fill out a full employment history. If I was considering someone for a job, I would definitely call any place the prospective employee had only worked for two weeks.

  198. Jessen*

    I’m having job application nerves. I’m trying to move up in call center and entry level office work. Of course, most places don’t post pay/benefits publicly, so I’m having a hard time figuring out what I’m worth. So I’m worried I’m going to end up underselling myself at a time when I really need money. I know in my field pay is generally fixed (if you’re in X position you make Y) and you’re generally expected to accept or reject offers quickly.

  199. Laura*

    Freaking out mildly.

    Seasonal positions have been posted for the store I’m hoping to transfer to… scared I missed the postings for my current position- a rung higher than seasonal. I don’t think I did-as there are postings for positions above mine-As this doesn’t fit the hierarchical posting model I was told about on several occasions, I’m nervous but I want to be sure/ properly advised on what to do next so talking with the current manager tomorrow to see what my best course of action is.

    And also checking internal job board tonight.

  200. Anxa*

    Any ideas on whether or not it’s super rude to reach out to a colleague to request an opportunity to meet, while also having limited meeting options. I am hourly and kind of stuck in a situation where I shouldn’t be meeting (or at least I shouldn’t talk too much directly about work) off the clock. But I don’t want to just create extra paid work for myself. I could meet during my hours, but that means leaving the resource room I staff unattended.

    I feel really forward creating more work for this person (in another department, we’ve never met) and then on top of that being difficult to meet with.

    Also, I am in a position where I want to be seen as a professional coworker, but work in a position that a lot of student workers work in.

      1. Anxa*

        I provide academic support for community college science students and I’m in a department with no other science people that I know of. I’m technically a temp and my coworkers are students. I am more career-minded Andy feel as though I have gathered a lot of insight and there’s no outlet for it, so I would like to speak with the STEM program manager and the lab manager. I will already have a chance to talk to faculty.

        I think I’m maybe a little self important about this and trying to hard to insert myself into the staff when I should maybe know my place as not really part of the staff.

        1. Anxa*

          I wanted to know more about their academic performance goals for different courses, to get more insight into the structure of the curriculum, to find out what opportunities are available for majors students, to perhaps shadow a lab or two, etc.

    2. Julianne*

      I think how you frame the request is important, which is obviously something you’re aware of. Use the question “How will knowing more about X help me support my students?” as a guide, both to present your requests and to keep any subsequent conversations on track. For example, you want to know about academic performance goals for the courses because that will help you to know where your target is with your students, and you might be looking for rubrics, exemplars, etc. (Or whatever is applicable at the CC level – I’m an elementary teacher, so those are things I’d be asking for in my context.) Or you want to shadow a lab because there is some aspect of the process that your students tend to struggle with and observing the process/obtaining a specific resource/IDK exactly would help you support them in the resource room.

      Keeping the students at the center of the discussion will make it clear where your priorities are, and that you are there to get better at what you do for your students’ benefit, not to try and insert yourself into the staff.

  201. FridayAnon*

    My boss came to me a couple weeks ago with of mistakes I’ve been making that she’s been fixing and not telling me about and she’s annoyed I’m still making them. Perhaps because I’ve not been told there was a problem. Today she came to me and said she’s not sure she has the ability to write an accurate review with possible corrections or if it’s a fit that can work. I was supposed to have an interim review a year ago, and my actual review six months ago. Neither have happened. She’s been in the position for 5 years, and I’m her 4th assistant and the first to last a year. If this all goes south as I expect, how do I convey in interviews? I have sent her things and asked for comment. She won’t respond or put me off for 6-8 weeks at which point I have had to do the process again. It sounds so defensive when I explain it, but I don’t know what to say.

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      When it’s relevant (and I find that it always comes up naturally), I always say, “I take direction well and I’m fine with being corrected. In past positions, I found that my supervisors were sometimes reluctant to make simple corrections in my work, even though I would have taken it fine and it would have been better for the company to just say something to me.” It comes off fairly well. Employers like to feel that they’re proactive.

  202. Working Hypothesis*

    Yipe, I’m back in the hiring business again!

    You know the way Alison always says that people shouldn’t worry about leaving their employer at a bad time, because everyone understands that things like that happen, and if something great falls into your lap just explain that? Well, I’ve now experienced what it’s like on the employer’s end… and I’m trying hard to remember all of it and be understanding, but boy, does it suck!!

    My family consists of myself, my two kids, my retired brother, and my disabled sister-in-law. My brother and I just began (literally ‘just’ — this past Wednesday) homeschooling my son, and it was going great… until Thursday, when my sister-in-law’s hired caregiver announced that she had to leave, with one day’s notice, because she was offered a job in the school system beginning Tuesday.

    The thing is, I understand. She’s got a master’s in education and this is a paraeducator role which is pretty much her dream job. Plus it offers benefits, which — as a private family — we can’t, and she has a kid to think of. So I really do get why she had to take this position, and I’m glad for her that she got it.

    But man, does it leave us in a complete disaster. My brother now has to take full-time care of his wife, even on days when he was supposed to be teaching. I have to do full-time teaching, including of subjects I don’t really understand, or risk my son falling behind. And I have to put everything I’d been planning about going back to work part-time on the days when I *don’t* teach on hold for yet longer, and I’ve already been off work for nearly a year (my own choice, because we were moving too far to keep my old job, and someone had to manage the household’s move anyway).

    So I get it, and Alison’s right that one just has to suck it up because these things happen… but it’s a pretty horrible position and I’m scared that we won’t be able to find someone quickly enough to keep it from escalating into total catastrophe. We’re still getting the hang of homeschooling at all. It’s probably easier for companies with lots of employees, who can ask six people to divide up the work of the one who vanishes suddenly… but we’re just a family, with one employee, and if she’s not there, we’re in danger of drowning.

    Treading water and trying not to sink, now…

    1. Working Rachel*

      This may not be AT ALL helpful to you right now, but just in case: a lot of people, after they’ve been homeschooling for a while, spend much, much less time formally teaching. “Unschoolers” often do very little formal teaching at all, and even more structured homeschoolers often find that it doesn’t take, say, 6 hours per day for their children to keep up to grade level, either because the one-on-one style of teaching is more effective or because homeschooling cuts out all the “wasted” time in classrooms spent on discipline, switching tasks, etc. So you may not need to sweat the homeschooling as much as you think you do right now. It sounds like at the very least there are sufficient adults around to make sure your son is safe and taken care of, which is what really matters.

      In any case, this does sound like a really difficult situation, and I empathize! Best of luck in finding a replacement soon.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Thank you! The sympathy helps, and I hope you’re right about the homeschooling. We’re using a combination of an online school (ALE, they call them) for core material, and our own teaching to expand and enrich and generally make it awesome. We wanted to make sure, this first year, that we could cover everything the school system would want him to know — so that, in case the homeschooling didn’t work out and he wanted to go back next year, he wouldn’t be behind. I’ll probably be a LOT more flexible about just doing it ourselves next year, if he keeps with it… partly because I’ll feel more like I know what I’m doing then, and partly because it won’t be so much a matter of trying to keep pace with the school as well as doing our own thing at the same time.

        That both hurts and helps in this situation… it hurts because we have a set of outside expectations we have to keep up with, and it helps because there are online lessons available to him, without necessarily requiring my brother’s participation. We’d intended to do those quickly, get them out of the way, and then spend much of the time doing more interesting science projects and stuff… but if necessary he can work ahead on the lessons, get them out of the way for the week or the month, and then have a bigger chunk of time later, when we’ve got a caregiver in place again, to concentrate on the project work.

        So we’ve got a plan, even if it’s a somewhat strained one… we’ll see if it actually works out. The other piece of news is that we’re hoping it doesn’t *have* to work for long — we’ve only got one applicant so far, but she wrote the best cover letter I’ve ever seen. Alison could use it as a poster example, except that it verges somewhat too personal for a strictly business environment. Perfect for a caregiver position with a private family, though.

        Anyway, we’ll be interviewing her, and hoping to get more applicants soon to compare her to. But I’m excited that our first applicant looks so good, at this early stage.

  203. WillowSunstar*

    The manager who, the other week, berated me in front of everyone over a minor issue and brought me to tears, also chose to berate me in front of everyone for a minor issue this week. Apparently accidentally asking the wrong person for help regarding an issue, when Cersei only listed a first name in her e-mail and was not specific, was enough to get berated.

    I tried to tell her that I work with teapot sellers instead of teapot handlers, and I do not know her teapot handlers, but this was not good enough and she would not see reason. Cersei’s way is always the only way. Everyone else is always wrong. It is perfectly ok to be berated for a minor mistake, which I probably would not have made had I not been stressed out to begin with.

    To make matters worse, she caught me venting privately to a friend in IM, and took issue with that. I guess I am only allowed to vent physically to my friends now. She stated she was going to report me to HR since I had apparently gone to HR the first time. I did not talk to anyone from HR, but my actual boss Theon apparently did. I told her as much. Theon gaslighted me when I tried talking to him originally and denied it even happened, so I had no idea he had gone to HR.

    This is getting to the ridiculous point. I am sorry but it is not fair to berate an employee in front of everyone for not knowing that she was talking about a teapot handler with a similar name vs. a teapot seller, and I was just asking for assistance. It’s not like I provided confidential information to someone outside the company or something. That I could at least understand.

    I did get a friend who overheard the first time to send me an e-mail on it, in case I do have to provide evidence to HR.

    Last night, I was getting anxiety attacks while trying to sleep just thinking about going back to work on Tuesday.

    I have 2 weeks left before I start my new job. I am really dreading going back to work, but I hope they have the new person starting next week sometime. Hopefully then Cersei will pick someone else to put her negativity on, since she won’t be able to scare off the new hire as easily. At least I know Theon will be useless to talk to now.

  204. Kat*

    I am panicking a bit and need advice. My partner found out today that there is a good chance he’ll be fired on Tuesday. Its a rumor, but from a reliable source and honestly would not be that surprising. (He is a political appointee and his boss has run afoul of the administration. The word is they plan to replace the whole department’s leadership.) His boss is planning to pull a “You can’t fire me, I quit” and my partner is considering doing the same. He is worried about his future employment prospects with a firing in his history. I think that it would be better to let them fire him so he remains eligible for unemployment benefits – which it sounds like he would be since there is no misconduct involved. (We moved our family to a new state for this job just a couple of years ago and my career kind of stalled out for a while. I’m finally earning a decent salary at a great job, but its not enough to support our family on alone.) Anyway, if it goes down this way, it will be in the news and anyone who may hire him in this relatively small market is going to know at least the story as it is reported in the media. He doesn’t think they’ll go for negotiating a transition over a couple of months.
    Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing? What else should we be considering as we prepare? This is going to be a very very stressful weekend.

    1. Anecdata*

      Is this in the US? I would not worry about the affect of being “fired” on his work history – it is so totally normal for political appointees to govt offices to be replaced by a new administration that it’s really not like being fired – more like being laid off, or leaving at the end of a defined-length contract. This is doubly true when the entire leadership is changed at once. And anyone who reads about it in the newspaper will understand it was political.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        THIS. All it will really take, in explaining the situation to a future interviewer, is “The administration decided it was time for a changing of the guard, and replaced the entire department. These things happen in political positions. I didn’t take it personally.” Nobody remotely sane is going to have trouble understanding that.

    2. Angry Democrat*

      I am sorry for your predicament.

      In my experience, political firings in DC do not work the same way as elsewhere, and lobby shops or whatevre will scoop him up. Can’t say if it works the same way now with Trump, but I would think mainstream GOP lobbying shops will be interested.

      Now, all this being said, I have to add this. WHY did he join the Trump administration? It was obvious what kind of character Trump has and that he is a very volatile and insecure man. Didn’t your partner stop to consider this could happen?

      1. Kat*

        Oh goodness I didn’t mean THAT administration! I’m talking city government here. The current local administration team hired both my partner and his boss but now the mayor is displeased by the way their program is being run. (It’s your basic dispute between someone who wants to see immediate results and those trying to plan for long term success.) So now the mayor wants to can the department head and the deputy directors. It’s messy because it’s a pretty small isolated city where it seems like everyone knows everyone and is all in everyone’s business.

      2. Wow*

        Assumptions much? Kat did not say anything about what level of government it was and it was really rude and unkind of you to jump all over it. It isn’t relevant to her question at all and frankly it is none of your business.

        1. Kat*

          Oh no offense taken! I was trying to be vague so as not to reveal identity (you never know who might be an AAM reader) and when I re-read my post it did cross my mind that someone might think we were furiously refreshing the president’s twitter feed to find out if he’d been fired.
          But it is a valid point that this is always a risk in this kind of position. Most of Partner’s previous government jobs have had some level of civil service protections and we are learning how quickly political winds can change.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I am sorry this is happening to your partner and your family. I will admit upfront to not having any first-hand experience with your kind of situation. Nevertheless, I’d like to suggest that your partner (if he hasn’t already done so) make an appointment with someone in the human resources department of city government ASAP to determine whether his status as a political appointee would in any way affect his eligibility for unemployment benefits, were he to be laid off. (Don’t assume that appointees in your city are treated the same as civil servants, because they may not be. The only way to find out for sure is to ask.) Or, whether it would even be possible to “lateral” over to another equivalent currently-empty political (or even a civil servant) position (probably not likely, but if he doesn’t ask, he’ll never know). Good luck.

      1. Kat*

        Thank you, this is helpful. This is his first non-civil-service job since he joined this industry so we are not very experienced on the ins and outs of how it all works.

  205. Not So NewReader*

    Kind of OT, but I have been waiting all week to ask how Texas commenters are doing.
    Ruffingit, are you okay? I am not remembering who else is in TX, I apologize. I hope you guys chime in and let us know how you all are doing.

  206. Office Mama of One*

    Anyone have experience with psychometric assessments at work? We’ve been told to complete one of these to discover our strengths and then extrapolate how those strengths benefit our teams/departments. This isn’t some test were they ask how strongly you agree or disagree with a neutral statement. There are questions asking about your relationship with your parents and how often you went against what they instructed and how often you were disciplined, etc. This is supposed to end with a list of your strengths and when it was introduced to the company we were all under the impression that it’s not optional. The company has paid a license fee for each employee to take the test.

    What would you do!? This is a completely out of left field kind of thing for this company. The only surveys, tests, etc are about if we would use new IT equipment, want a new coffee machine, and the culture survey.

    I’ve already emailed our HR person with the message that this line of questioning makes me too uncomfortable and I followed by asking what we can do about it but I’m concerned it won’t get me out of doing the assessment. It’s a test developed by their company and I’m sure it’s part of the HR person’s KPIs at their company. They’re contracted to us but not actually an employee of my company.

    Should I be job hunting? Should I just take the assessment and lie on it? I don’t want to be analyzed like this and it’s a really intrusive look into my past, etc.

    Please help.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      What the actual? That sounds horrendously intrusive. What about people who were abused? What about people whose parents died or divorced or who went into foster care? What if your parents were just really unreasonable or really lax? What are they going to learn just from asking you how you behaved? This is normative bullsh*t.

      Who at your company manages the contracted HR company? Who told you to complete it – HR or your manager? Can you talk to your manager? Is anyone else horrified – could you push back as a group?

      I don’t think you should take it. And if your employer insists you do it then yes I think you may need to start job hunting. The HR company sound like loons, but it’s not clear yet if your direct employers are loons.

      1. WillowSunstar*

        I agree. You never know if someone’s parents were abusive. The company does not need to know that. I would say this certainly falls into the line of inappropriate interview questions.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        But simply doing it is intrusive and some won’t be comfortable even lying on it.

        I would not be able to complete this.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I mean, what would I do? Lie and say my parents were normal and then have a complete breakdown afterwards?

          1. Indie*

            Yeah that sucks. It also sounds like the test was designed by someone q naive who thinks all families are reasonable and alike. So if you say I rebelled against (unreasonable) parents, it’ll record a result that you rebel against reasonable authority. If you say you never rebelled against (unsafe to cross) parents youll sound more docile than wisely cautious .

            Unless you were raised on Waltons Mountain the results are going to be a lie however truthful you are.

    3. Indie*

      Can you say the phrasing of the questions don’t apply to everyone and it concerns you (apart from how gooI mean some people don’t have parents at all and some have only one so this nuclear family bullshit is q upsetting to many) . Don’t get drawn into discussions about your own past – just helpfully point out their mistake .

      1. Indie*

        *Apart from how good/bad people’s parents are.

        Ooh.. I have a mid line between lying and TMI truth telling. Replace the word parents with teacher/mentor/first boss and you will actually probably get a more relevant-for-work result by using something less personal.

  207. PDF Software Please*

    I’m very cheap and I’ve been using various freeware on my laptop PC for things like word processing and spreadsheets and it has never been a problem. It is very easy to convert documents (such as resumes and lists of references) to PDFs. I also have a printer/scanner/fax machine which I use to scan signed cover letters. However, my scanner converts all documents into separate PDFs for each page. This is fine for single page cover letters.

    I’ve been using Adobe Reader as my default software for looking at PDFs. However, the free version I have won’t let me combine 2 separate 1-page PDFs into a single 2-page PDF. My big thing I have run into a situation where the potential employer wants copies of college transcripts and mine run 2 pages.

    Can anyone here recommend a good free PDF software that would let me merge pages to create a document larger that a single page?

  208. nep*

    I gather some AAM regulars work as editors/copy editors. What tips would you have for landing those first couple copy editing freelance jobs to break in, get oneself on people’s radar? I worked in writing and editing (including a lot of copy editing) full time for some 12 years till 2014, when I took a job in another industry. That gap (not unemployment but other-industry employment) is an obstacle, certainly, but one I’m determined to clear. I’m applying for jobs (explaining the gap clearly in cover letter) and I am letting friends and former colleagues know I’m in the market.
    Thanks for any tips, insights.

  209. nep*

    The other day I received a rejection email that was quite over the top. Reminded me of one that was covered on this site a while back. I think employers / HR departments would do well to just tone it down a bit and make that a mature, matter-of-fact note. Do they think by being cutesy they’re softening the blow? Hmmmm.

    1. nep*

      (Not saying that out of bitterness — it was a long shot anyway and no hard feelings — I am genuinely curious and interested in what HR people might think.)

  210. DDES*

    i started a job less a month ago, but it’s making me ill.

    i know it seems Realllly retarded, but should i quit? my job is to help pick orders, and t’ pretty much that in the area where boxed are kept, there is some dust. it didn’t affect me before, but it made me cough, and i’m still having some headaches from it.

    the thing is, i am still new, and i don’t wish to rock the boat. but then it could be dangerous, and i don’t want any issues coming up.

    I am doing well and settling in well in my job, but then i think i need to bring this up, as it’s a serious thing for me even if i am still new.

    I said in my health assessment that i had no allergies, which is true, but then i’m not sure how this will factor now.

    should i ask them about this?

    1. Floundering Mander*

      I think it’s worth asking, as it could be that a simple dust mask would solve your problem. After all, you are probably being exposed to something new, so you had no way of knowing that it would affect you before you took the job.

      On a side note, please don’t use the word “retarded” in that way going forward. It’s quite offensive, particularly to those who have learning disabilities. I know that not everyone knows that so I’m only intending to give you a heads up.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      You can ask for a mask and gloves when you do this. It’s a normal request. In warehouses, the dust often can contain rodent droppings, bugs (sorry to say that!) or other nasty things, so yes it can be a safety issue!
      But if the dust is truly giving you health issues, yes you cold potentially quit this soon. You get a pass once if the job simply was not a good fit and it sparked your allergies, something any future employer would understand, or you simply leave this job off.

  211. Owl*

    My amazing wife has a senior position in her organization, as do I in mine. (We’re both in the same industry.) I used to get on quite well with her boss, whom I knew (casually, but definitely not in a best-friends way) before she landed her job. The problem is that I’ve had a falling out with her boss. A few months ago her boss began behaving a bit erratically, and after I privately expressed concern to him, he began publicly attacking my leadership style at various industry events. I want to answer these charges but am afraid he will retaliate against her, so I’ve largely remained silent outside my immediate circle. I’m starting to wonder whether he hired her for precisely this reason, but I don’t want to undermine her confidence by bringing this theory up. Any advice?

    1. Observer*

      What would you expect to gain by bringing this up? I can’t imagine any useful outcome, and it could easily make you look like the paranoid one.

      You could bring up your concern about her boss attacking you and your feeling that responding to this could cause him to retaliate against her. A conversation about your options individually and as a couple would probably be useful. But the idea that she was hired to keep you quiet is not really useful or even relevant to that conversation.

    2. Indie*

      Just let him carry on making a fool of himself here. Nothing for you to do as you’re not the unfortunate soul who manages him.

      If he does it when you’re not around he’ll
      be just like the below average skills office gossip who talks about others behind their backs to big themselves up. People dont listen.

      If he does it publicly, around you he’ll look way too aggressive for office norms. If it happens in the hope of making confrontation just put on your ‘this is so disappointing’ face (invaluable to teachers) and let him continue proving how unreliable a narrator he is.

      If someone else brings it up just shrug confidently and say “Fortunately he thinks a lot of (wife) because hes her boss” youll be discreetly underlining to your colleague how wifeboss is using a very gross power play.

  212. Indie*

    So does anyone want to talk female office fashion for the ample chested? I’ve been reading some posts about appropriate female office attire and was surprised that busty commentators were not mentioning many of my own favourite methods. Took me ages to figure it out, so hoping this helps anyone still struggling:

    1) Boater necks are a godsend. V necks and scoops tend to migrate south. While high crew or turtle necks are often suggested they actually make you look even bustier and kind of like a human shelf.
    2. Double up with a tight undergarment. Tight clothes alone are unprofessional but a tight, straight across cami worn under something blousy reins you in enough to allow a greater variety of necklines on top. Most issues are caused by ‘boob movement’
    3. Shift dresses or a peplum top in shift-esque fabric such as tweed. Shifts tend to have perfect necklines which round out just above or beneath the collar bone. Stiffer fabrics typical of shift dresses also stay put more securely.
    4. Peter pan collars, lace collars, and pussy bows. These break up the solid look of a high neck and also have stay put power.
    5. Back buttoned blouses. Prevents front buttoned gapings and can be very pretty. Also try side zippered tops. It leaves the front blank for clever panelling and decorative detail.

    1. Willow Sunstar*

      I am blessed with a casual dress code. Lots of people wear polo shirts in the summer and flannel tops or sweaters during the winter. I do wear a scarf over anything remotely questionable.

  213. Pathfinder Ryder*

    I had an interview last week! I’m not particularly keen on the job because the commute and the hours are longer (I somehow managed to forget where they were until after I applied) and there isn’t as much work as I’d like, but getting an interview at all was a nice ego boost after historically being bad at getting them (before I discovered Ask a Manager!) and it was good to get interviewing practice.

    1. Pathfinder Ryder*

      And after I posted that, a “Business Owner” in this company’s industry and area just viewed me on Linked In :o

  214. Kali*

    Ugh….my manager forgot to pay me!

    I’m a student ambassador for my university, officially starting later this month. That’s when the actual contracts are due to be signed. But, since I’m here over the summer, I helped with out the international summer school, so payment for that will be via a ‘claim’ form that needs to be submitted by the 13th of each month for payment at the end of the month. I submitted mine. So did the other ambassador. BUT, one guy – a mature Phd student who is helping out in another capacity – didn’t, so our manager didn’t submit our forms either. I’ll still get paid, but it’ll be at the end of September instead of the end of August. :/ My student loan will arrive before then, and my bills will take me up to the edge of my overdraft but not over it, so not totally terrible but…grrrrrrrrrrrrr. At least he’s been regularly inflating my hours, and added quite a bit to this months. Plus, paid lunches with reimbursable expenses.

    1. Observer*

      I have no idea of the legal status given that this is not a “regular” job. But please know that under normal circumstances, your employer CANNOT legally do this. They HAVE to pay you on time – even if you didn’t submit your paperwork, as it happens. Of course, if you didn’t it’s possible that your employer could claim that it didn’t know that you had actually worked the hours. But if YOU submitted your paperwork, the employer is on the hook. The fact that your boss was too lazy to handle the forms separately wouldn’t make a whit of a difference.

      Your boss really needs to go to bat for you here and get your check issued ASAP. Of course, he doesn’t sound like the type of person who would lift an extra finger to help clean up the mess he made. But know that that’s a reflection on him. And not a positive one, either.

      1. Kali*

        I got the impression – from various things, like he asked me to step out of the office before he told me – that it could be sorted out if he really pushed for it and admitted his mistake. :/ I’m not going to push him on that because, firstly, he was very much in credit before this, and, secondly, I *can* afford it, though I’m not really happy. Plus, if I work for him again, it will be next year. It’s a really nice summer job, and I don’t want to sour it, even though this has wiped out all of his positive credit with me!

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