open thread – September 15-16, 2017

by Alison Green on September 15, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Generic Administrator*

    So today I found in a closed email account an email from our CEO to a manager he drove out after only seven months. Well I say email but it was more of a hate filled rant that insulted the capabilities and hard work of said GM. Apparently he doesn’t know how to do his job or run a department correctly.
    My favourite bit though was his thoughts that you don’t have to give recognition pay raises or promotions as long as people are loyal to you….. yeah, WTF indeed. He also insulted the many people GM managed.
    I’ve been at this place 91 days- 90 too many *sigh*
    HAPPY FRIDAY!!

      1. Generic Administrator*

        Yep. My head is in a complete spin. I went out for lunch and didn’t want to come back. There’s a lot wrong with this place (family business too, so no scope whatsoever to change).

        1. RVA Cat*

          JerkBoss CEO, King Baby of the Nepotists, Lord Commander of the Douchecanoes, The Unlearnt, Father of Rage Emails, First and Hopefully Last of His Name.

              1. Jareth*

                We called ours “Fearless Leader” — because in retail if you lack a healthy dose of concern, you’re not paying nearly enough attention

    2. MoinMoin*

      “My favourite bit though was his thoughts that you don’t have to give recognition pay raises or promotions as long as people are loyal to you”
      How, pray tell, does one inspire such loyalty then? The only option I see left is cult of personality, and I wouldn’t want to manage a bunch of people like that.

      1. Lance*

        Possibly one of those ‘they should be happy they have a job!’ types, or something similar, I’m thinking.

      2. RVA Cat*

        “I exploit you, still you love me…I tell you one and one makes three! I’m the Cult of Personality, the Cult of Personality, the Cult of Personality….!”
        May Living Color’s scorching guitar riffs get you through your day.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Tangent…have you heard their new album? SHADE. And it is.

          Yes, Living Color is still making music!

  2. KatieKate*

    So the job I interviewed for a few weeks ago just got back to me, and it’s a no go. I saw it coming, but now I need to make my current job work for me. I still like my job, but this would have a been a really cool next step.

    1. SaraV*

      Internet fuzzies to you. Just got the rejection email yesterday myself.

      I REALLY want to have a new job lined up by the new year. Listings right now are slim. Nose back to the grindstone.

    2. NaoNao*

      Aw, man. I’m in a similar boat. I’m okay with the job I have now, but I’m interviewing for a “cool next step” type job. Good luck and I will be hoisting my ginger ale to you if I have to “make it work” too :)

      1. a girl has no name*

        I’m with all of you. Ready for the next step, but I’ve been getting a few rejections. Found a project to be excited about at my current job so that helps. You’ll find something, just keep pushing through and working hard. (It gives you more to add to your resume) :)

    4. Koko*

      A couple years back a competitor expressed interest in poaching me. I’m happy where I am, but it would have been a big pay/title/responsibility bump for me, enough that it’d have been silly not to pursue it. They ultimately hired someone else so I stayed on. While it would have been exciting to move up and it stung a little not to be chosen, I won’t lie – there was a part of me that was extremely relieved that I wouldn’t have to go through the stress of changing jobs. Learning a new workplace culture, developing a new commute/work routine, the steep learning curve associated with a new job. Not that it wouldn’t have been worth it, but it at least helped me feel better about staying to remind myself how nice it is to have a job that you could do in your sleep, that makes you feel confident and doesn’t drain all your energy the way a new job does.

    5. DevAssist*

      I am NOT happy with my current job, but I’m also incredibly broke (like…no savings. none.) and job postings are slim right now.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. nep*

        This is my situation exactly.
        I’m going to have to shift my perspective about current job, take on some more hours there (there are opportunities for that) and keep pressing on with the search.
        Good luck, all.

    6. Language Lover*

      Had a rejection this week too. By phone. Ugh. They said really nice things too but if I felt I desperately needed the job, having a VM message asking me to call back and then not getting it would have devastated me.

      Fortunately, I like my job and the people I work with and I don’t know that they could have offered me the salary I wanted to leave so I wasn’t devastated. But they did have some awesome perks I covet so I’m a bit bummed I didn’t have the opportunity to consider it.

      1. Artemesia*

        Here’s another vote for rejection EMails. A phone with ‘call me back’ would have raised my hopes too.

        1. JN*

          I got a voicemail rejection a few weeks ago (a day after getting an email rejection from another job possibility). I let the call go to voicemail because I wasn’t 100% sure if I really wanted the job (the salary and location, yes, the job itself…) and wanted to have time to think before making contact with the hiring person if it had been a job offer. Plus, I was getting ready to go to work and didn’t really have time to pause and have a phone conversation anyway. But since it wasn’t an offer I didn’t have to do anything. Yes, I also much prefer emails to phone calls for the “thanks but no thanks” types of communication. Have another interview next week, so fingers crossed.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      I’m on the market too. I was auto-rejected within a few hours for a job I wasn’t sure I’d want, and it was a little painful. I guess it’s better than not hearing back ever (looking at you, other companies I’ve applied to).

      Unfortunately I have pretty niche skills and while there are a lot of jobs I would love and am perfectly qualified for and have strong references at those places, they would all require relocation and I’m not able to move for the time being.

      Good luck to us all!

    8. Chalupa Batman*

      If it helps, I’m another one in your boat. I got a SECOND rejection from an application I sent out on a whim a while ago. They rejected me personally a few weeks after I applied, and then re-rejected me today via form letter because they filled the position. Ouch. Automated replies are a jerk. Glad to have a good job until that next step swings back around.

      1. Trixie*

        I work in an HR department and regularly have to send these notices out. Ultimately, our goal is to share an official update with the applicants so each step in the online application process is documented. Some hiring managers do like to notify select candidates personally and soften the rejection.

      2. LuvzALaugh*

        Yep, rejections here too! Been looking on and off for two years. Back at it hardcore now. It is obvious I am pigeon holed into my current role which sucks because pay at my current company for higher level jobs is top in the industry, but why stay when I won’t be getting one of those well paying jobs. Female boss who is childless can not accept her choice to remain childless if she is surrounded by successful people who did both career and children so she goes after working mothers. Unfortunately, I didn’t escape her career crushing as I was her direct report until she transferred but she still has a direct connection with the person who could promote me and has ensured it wont happen. I wish I was one of the lucky other working moms who was not in her swim lane and made it despite her attempts to crush them. Lesson learned. Job hunting for a job reporting to a man never again a woman.

  3. Nervous Accountant*

    Has anyone used Monster’s resume critique? They got back to me fairly quickly (24 hours) and actually some of the advice I saw matched up with what I’ve read here (to show accomplishments and not just talk about my job tasks). But they mostly tore it apart and in the end offered a professional service. I’m actually considering it. They also have a 60 day interview guarantee.

    Is it worth it? The writing major in me is dying horribly inside but I’m just tired and have more money than time and energy to spare these days.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I twice used resume services. The first time was because resumes were so new to me, the second time was because I hated my job so much that I couldn’t think about quantifying it. My first experience was very good, the service included a thorough interview to talk about my jobs and accomplishments. The second experience technically got me what I needed, but the finished result was all formatting pizzazz and not much substance. I ended up rewriting it, but they gave me the foundation to work off of. The first was a local company and the second was one of the big resume mill companies.
      If you want something truly tailored and thoughtful, then you need to talk to someone and answer questions. I wouldn’t trust Monster.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Don’t use Monster — or any model that’s based on a free critique and then an offer for paid services. I’m pretty sure they will never say “your resume is fine and doesn’t need work” — they will always tear it up and then tell you that you need their paid services. If you’re going to hire resume help, go for a person (not a large service where you don’t know who is helping you) with a history of doing significant hiring who doesn’t do the “free critique” scammy model.

      1. Allison*

        Sounds like the resume version of an auto shop that offers a free inspection with an oil change, and they tell you all the services and repairs you simply must have done right away, and then start scheduling you for those repairs.

        1. Admin Amber*

          I have outside eyes critique my resume. If you have a friend or family member who does a lot of hiring they can be invaluable advice.

          1. Paquita*

            I had a friend look at mine (and my husbands). She works fulltime, manages and sings in a gospel group. She helps some people with resumes because she enjoys it. Mine and DH’s look WONDERFUL after she worked on them.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Unfortunately, no — sorry! (I also removed one comment here from someone who sells this service, since I generally don’t allow that here — if I did, we’d get flooded with them and I have no way to vet them.)

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        Alison, do you do them? I could have sworn I saw something in past years but I haven’t seen anythin grecently, but I could be wrong.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I’ve occasionally offered resume reviews once or twice a year for a very limited time (like a one-day offer), but I haven’t done it since 2015. I’m actually thinking about offering it again very briefly in the next month or so though, although I’m not positive yet.

          2. mockingbird2081*

            I am so glad I got in on that 2015 offer. I started getting a lot more interviews after adjusting my resume based on your suggestions. I not only got a great job offer but I was just promoted to an even better position.

            Thank you for offering it back then!!!

      4. dreams for plans*

        I actually used a free resume review service from Glassdoor and they sent me an email RAVING about it. All thanks to you, Alison!

      5. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s the thing–I don’t have any friends or family who hire. Most of them are in the same field as me, and don’t do any hiring. The ones with years of experience are super busy and will just look at it and say “Yeah its’ fine.”

        1. Anna*

          Do you know anyone in job development? That’s my area and I’ll take a look at anyone’s resume who wants it. I’m not perfect, but based on what I’ve learned here and talking to employers, I’m not too shabby.

      6. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Alison, you are so right. When I was unemployed 5 years ago, I fell for their “Your resume needs to be improved if you want to get a job” line. And it cost me a nice chunk of change for just a re-wording of what I wrote. I just updated my resume. I had my cousin critique it. She’s done some hiring. She told me what she would look for in a resume and we worked from there.

    3. AccountingIsFun*

      If you went to college or university in the United States, many of them offer free resume services to help you. At one of the universities I have attended, you get free resume service for life. Just contact their career services area and they have professionals that can help you with your resume and job search. They are invested in you being successful because it makes them look good to have an alumni do well. Just a thought, but I think it would be better than a paid service.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Eh, but some career services are Not Great – I’ve seen the advice my husband’s workplace gives out. It’s mediocre and geared toward college students.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Really? that’s interesting. I’ve been reading it here for a long time that college career services aren’t any good.

        1. Jadelyn*

          They vary – widely. Some are terrible, some are okay, some are actually pretty good. The issue to watch out for is career centers staffed by people who’ve been in academia most or all of their careers, because they tend to have a weaker sense of how careers work outside of that context so their advice isn’t as good.

          Like, my school’s career center was…okay. I feel like they hadn’t updated their resume guidelines in awhile because they were still insisting that objective statements were absolutely necessary, but they didn’t strike me as actively harmful like some of the ones we’ve heard about around here.

        2. Simone R*

          It really depends on the college/field. Probably most are bad, but some can actually be good, especially for certain fields. My undergrad career office is on a bunch of ‘best career services’ list and excellent for helping people get jobs in finance, but weaker for other fields. It can’t hurt to check out the office and then take their advice with a few grains of salt.

        3. Thank you*

          I used to work in academia and one college specifically was great at resume building. The director came from and HR/Recruiting background – not an academic one. I think this was the biggest in their favor.

          Now, the other college I worked for was insanely inept at this. BUT they had departmental staff that would help students, so career services no so good but advisors excellent.

          For this OP I would ask a friend or colleague who works in HR if they know anyone local who does this type of thing on the side – I did it for awhile while I was unemployed to earn extra cash. Started with a headhunter but then word kinda spread around a little.

      3. Epsilon Delta*

        I would would be really skeptical of a college’s resume critique service. I had my resume critiqued as an undergrad and they nitpicked some formatting choices but didn’t offer any feedback on the actual substance of the resume other than “Great Job!” (it was not a great resume, I had no idea what I was doing). Then when I went back to school at a tech college, they had a lot of outdated advice, like objectives and listing every course you took.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Unfortunately, I’ve only had one University career advisor who was a competent resume reviewer/editor. He is amazing, and I will love him forever.

        I know this will sound kind of brown-nose-y, but I feel like you get better bang for your buck from Alison’s books on how to get a job than on massive resume services like Monster.

    4. MagicMaker*

      The best resume advice I ever received was from my state’s Department of Employment during a time when I was laid off. Attending some workshops was necessary as a condition of collecting unemployment. I had been a hiring supervisor, but had been in my position for so long, I had never had to create a resume. Further, I had chosen to change careers, and that further complicated my resume needs. They did a great job of helping me tailor a resume to the job I wanted referencing the skills and accomplishments that applied from my prior work in a thoughtful way. I have continually updated and refined that resume 3-4 times a year ever since (it’s significantly easier to keep your resume current, and less tasking, if you do it a few times a year). When I created it, and even occasionally now, I have a set of trusted peers give it a look, and I offer to review theirs as well, which also helps refinement. I would think most states or counties offer this type of advice for free (well, as part of the services your taxes pay for, assuming you are in the US), and I think they are well worth taking advantage of.

  4. Snarkus Aurelius*

    Did anyone catch this week’s letter in the Post’s Work Advice column? Ay yi yi.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/this-employee-accepted-a-new-job-then-a-better-offer-came-along/2017/09/08/f0c9c490-8423-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html?utm_term=.b043c2767d28

    Even though the current employer’s counter offer came from a different division and VP, the sentiment is the same. This employer didn’t care about the OP until the OP found another job somewhere else. THEN career investment and development and better salary offers began.

    The columnist argued that the different circumstances (new job, new boss, better pay) aren’t the same as taking a counteroffer to stay at the old job. True, but the employer’s approach to retention is still the same.

    The VP and director should have approached the OP about her job satisfaction long ago. It would have come up in that conversation that her salary had stagnated and she wanted something new. The counteroffer came literally hours after the OP gave notice so obviously there was interest there.

    1. 2 Cents*

      When I left Old Job, it was after 4+ years of no raises (post-economic downturn), reduction in benefits, and a hiring freeze. My manager actually said to me, “We couldn’t give you money, but we gave you experience with all the new job duties and work you took on.” When I gave my notice, guess who finally found money to give me a raise! Best feeling in the world saying, “Nope, it’s more than just the money” because at that point, it was.

      1. CatCat*

        Yep, pretty much the same thing happened to me early in my working life. I actually had gotten a raise earlier that year (though it ended up being a lot smaller than my manager promised me). Suddenly, when I gave notice 9 months later, “Oh noes, what if we paid you more??” Uh… no… money wasn’t even the issue at that point as there were a host of toxic workplaces issues (and even if it had been about money, why would I stay if getting another offer is the only effective way to get the raise I asked for?)

      2. Roza*

        Haha, me too. First words out of my manager’s mouth when I gave notice at my previous job was, “Is it about money? I can easily get you more money!” Um…if my work is so valuable to the company and you’d happily and easily pay me more for it, why aren’t you already doing that? As seems to always be the case, the company’s cheapness (no one got promoted or big raises without outside offers) was just one symptom of a larger toxic culture. I also doubt they would have actually matched the 40% raise, doubling of vacation time, and increase in other benefits my new job provided (and new job, though I love it for other reasons, is not even that outstanding in terms of salary/benefits–old job was just REALLY cheap towards junior staff).

        1. Competent Commenter*

          “Is it about money? I can easily get you more money!”

          Oh my God. I would have thrown something.

          1. Zip Zap*

            But a lot of people ask for raises that way. They threaten to leave otherwise. Or present an offer for a job they don’t actually want. I hear about this mostly from guys. I think it might be a gender thing. Possibly also related to age and industry.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      Oh my co does this all the time–counteroffer. If I hadn’t been reading this website since 2012, I’d think this was totally normal and appropriate and OK.

    3. Actuarial Octagon*

      It’s bizarre to me that this seems to happen so frequently. Several years ago when I left my dumpster fire of a job my manager threw a whole host of things out to get me to stay. More money, you don’t have to work with the *missing stair of a salesman*, you don’t have to do *process everyone hates*. Obviously, none of this had been offered when I complained about them previously. In the end, I didn’t trust them, left and am so much happier.

    4. miyeritari*

      Never believe your company when you say, “Sorry, leaving now,” and they say “but wait, we’ll give you the pay and company improvements you wanted.”

      They never do.

      1. Specialk9*

        “Never believe your company when you say, “Sorry, leaving now,” and they say “but wait, we’ll give you the pay and company improvements you wanted.” They never do.”

        My old job did for me, twice. I happily spent almost 15 years there. But it was open career advice from managers to get an offer letter so they could give you a raise, when they couldn’t get one just by asking. Most people job hopped, but job offer matching was done, without any career implications that I saw.

        I believe the rest of you that my experience isn’t universal, but it’s certainly not never.

  5. FDCA In Canada*

    Yesterday was my last day at work, and I’m fairly displeased with how my boss chose to handle it–she’s dispersing my duties to the rest of the staff, but not giving them any guidance on what I actually do, and her answer has been “They’ll figure it out.” One of my coworkers waited until I had five minutes left in the day then came into my office to ask “So what about your ongoing duties? What are we all going to do?” Well, for starters, I spoke with the people who would be directly affected, and I wrote up SOPs, and beyond that–I can’t do much for you in four minutes.

    On the plus side, I’ve had five interviews this week and I have another one in an hour, plus I’ve had interest from about three further opportunities, so hopefully I won’t be unemployed for too long.

    1. DDJ*

      Good luck! I’m guessing you maybe left due to mismanagement, based on your boss’s response to your departure? Yikes.

    3. MsT13*

      In a VERY similar place, but I’m moving roles in the company, so my managers agreed to “share my time” next week. The director that manages one of my ongoing projects is actually still refusing to name someone to cover it.
      Waiting for the panic to ensue next…Thursday.

  6. Jimbo*

    Week 3 since I resigned from my job! I’ve had four interviews since that time, turned down two jobs because of bad fit or bad commute, got rejected for a couple. One of the companies I interviewed with has asked for references! I am on pins and needles the past several days waiting to hear back to see if they will make an offer!

    One thing I worry about in this stage are my references. The reason I resigned my last job is partly a relationship with my immediate supervisor which was getting worse and more adversarial over time. I’ve been spending a lot of time calling the EAP service to cope and at a certain point I just could not take any more and gave my two weeks notice with no job lined up.

    I made the most of my final two weeks at my old job and made as graceful an exit as I could. My boss even told me that he appreciated all the documentation, training, and procedures manuals I left with him. I worry because in my exit interview with HR, I wasn’t planning on it but my true feelings about mismanagement, financial difficulties with the project and how chronic under-funding and bad planning led to my departure came out. I was very honest with HR. I am worried if that would filter down to my old boss and if he might say something negative about me in a reference call as a result.

    1. DDJ*

      I’d like to thank you for giving honest feedback in your exit interview. If HR doesn’t totally suck, hopefully they’ll use the information wisely, and it won’t filter down to your old boss in the near future. Good luck with the job search!

    2. Jadelyn*

      If your HR is at all competent, they’ll be circumspect in addressing the concerns you mentioned in your exit interview. If I saw an exit survey come through with some really bad stuff in it, it would go up to my VP, up diagonally to the SVP over the departing person’s manager’s department, and be addressed as a coaching issue down from there in a way that kept it disconnected from the departing person as much as possible – more of a “we’ve noticed some issues in XYZ, let’s work on that” rather than “Fergus told us you screwed up XYZ, fix it now”. I mean, they can’t be completely sure the manager won’t work it out, but they should be really trying to keep it from being connected back to you.

    3. Jimbo*

      Thanks both for the feedback! This is particularly crucial to me because the employer who asked for my references was pretty insistent about getting to talk with the supervisors from my last two jobs. Of course I was on the spot and could not refuse or think of a good reason not to give them my last supervisor as a reference

  7. Trout 'Waver*

    To all the HR people out there with applicant tracking systems: Either make sure they work with common browsers or openly state which browsers are supported. Going through an entire application in Firefox and finding the submit button does not work is a pain in the ass and makes me think less of your company. Fortunately Chrome worked. But c’mon man.

    Also, cover letters are important. Make sure there’s an opportunity for candidates to submit one.

    1. Jadelyn*

      My favorite are the ones which only work in freaking IE. Who uses that anymore? The only reason I still have IE on my work computer at all is because Cognos Event Studio only works in IE. I use Chrome for literally everything else.

      Although, in HR’s defense, ATS browser compatibility is not something we generally have a lot of control over. The ATS vendor is the primary one at fault there. Although I’ll grant you, “compatibility with common browsers” should’ve been a must-have when vendor-shopping for the ATS.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        OMG. Thank you! I hate IE and I do sorta judge anyone who uses it (as first choice/preference). It was so weird – at my last job everyone used IE and then sort of judged me for using Chrome. Felt like I was in a bizarro world.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Every day was opposite day, lol. I do judge people a bit on using IE – IT sets it up as the default, so it actually makes a handy way to tell, when I go to help someone with tech stuff, whether they’re tech-savvy or will need a lot of handholding. If they’ve changed their default browser, I can give them high-level instructions and expect them to run with it; if they’re still using IE, well, step by step with screenshots it is!

          1. Lightly-chewed Jimmy*

            eh…IE is my personal last choice, but if IT set me up with IE then I’d be using IE because I’d assume that’s the one I’m supposed to use.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          I read the first post and wondered if I was the only one to be put off by IE. I’m not alone! Hurrah!

        3. MLiz*

          actually at my current job, IT has made IE the default browser. I hate it. but I’ve arranged myself with it by now, mostly because I have zero control over it. our intranet only works with IE, so there’s nothing I can do.

            1. MLiz*

              I sort of have Firefox also (not working with intranet but 90% of our systems are only reachable via intranet so eh), but I got a “you know we’re using IE here” gentle admonishment, so there’s that. And of course I have no admin rights. Also there’s so much blacklisted from my emloyer’s side, I mostly use my phone for other stuff, even if it’s inane and totally benign.

        1. Jadelyn*

          You know, that’s a really good question. Is there a version of IE for Mac? I’ve only ever been a Windows user so I have no idea how someone on a Mac would be able to access Event Studio.

          1. Proofin' Amy*

            It was discontinued ages ago. Not long after Macs stopped supporting it, I was doing freelance writing for a magazine that used an IE-only invoicing system. I had to use an emulator that allowed me to run IE on my Mac, just so I could get paid. Thankfully, they dropped the system eventually.

      4. justsomeone*

        “…browser compatibility is not something we generally have a lot of control over.”
        My friend works for a big tech company and they’re having a hell of a time with Chrome killing Flash. Now one of their application processes is broken and there’s literally nothing she can do about it. It’s on the vendor to fix it, and they can only fix it so fast. But applicants still have to go through the process and she’s stuck on repeat “It doesn’t work in Chrome but it works in IE. Tell your applicants to take it in IE. There is nothing I can do to fix this right now.”

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Forcing applicants to use IE to apply to a big tech company is most certainly not the image they’re going for.

      5. Becky*

        Ugh we have so many clients who have old intranet applications and sites that only work in outdated version if IE. Whenever we update our application (that they can embed in their system) we always get complaints that it doesn’t work anymore–yeah because IE7 (which is what “Compatibility Mode” forces IE to act like) is out of date and insecure and we don’t support it! We’ve slowly (VERY slowly) been forcing them to update to the latest version or evergreen versions of browsers. We had one client which finally got off using XP for the majority of their employees in the last year. (XP which is incapable of upgrading beyond IE8.)

      6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        My campus requires Chrome since we moved over to G Suite… but the employee portal was designed for Firefox and tech has said they won’t be redoing it for Chrome. Sooooo what are we supposed to do? You require us to use Chrome but don’t make our required site compatible.

        Also, there’s a whole section that is required access in IE. I genuinely, honestly do anything I can to avoid having to go in that section. Won’t do it. IE sucks so bad and my computer always has issues after I use it.

        1. Chaordic One*

          I didn’t even know that people still used IE. I thought it had been replaced by Microsoft Edge. Fortunately, I’ve never run into a problem with my browsers.

    2. Schnapps*

      Most of our internal website (forms, etc) only work properly in an old version of Internet Explorer.

      They recently upgraded our application system, but the previous one only worked with Firefox, Chrome, Safari, or Opera.

      Tax dollars at work, I tell you.

  8. Squeeble*

    I got a weird email from a recruiter last week. The recruiter described the position she was hiring for and said “given your experience in this area, I thought you might be able to point me in the right direction. If you know someone who might be interested in the position, please feel free to pass this along to them!”

    I mean…I’m not interested in that job myself, but it seemed odd that she wasn’t trying to recruit ME.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’ve gotten so many bizarro recruiter emails. Some of them are great and others just seem totally clueless. I’m guessing she thought you might know people who were a good fit, but it’s definitely a bit weird.

      1. Squeeble*

        Yeah, there was something about the tone of the email overall that led me to think she might be inexperienced in the job.

        1. Folklorist*

          That sounds like the recruiter version of “negging” or something. Like, you’re supposed to feel slightly insulted but still want to prove yourself that you’re a good candidate? Or something? How strange.

    2. Rincat*

      I get emails worded like that from recruiters quite often. It’s kind of weirdly insulting to me. Is there some kind of subtext I’m missing that’s like, “If you know of anyone…like yourself…reach out to me!” or are they just bad at emails?

    3. Work Wardrobe*

      I used to get a ton of those. It’s fishing, really.

      If I knew someone who was really in need of a lead, then yeah. But I’m not turning over my contact to a stranger…

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d say it depends on your relationship with the recruiter. If it’s someone that you’ve worked with who has placed you in a position and knows you’re not looking, then I think it makes perfect sense. “We sent Squeeble to Company X and it worked out well. Company Y is looking for the same type of person. Maybe Squeeble can recommend someone.”

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Hmm, yeah, that’s a little weird then. I have gotten some of those that are like “we have this great job for you and if you’re not interested feel free to pass it along”.

          Fun fact: they are all jobs I am wildly unqualified for because data mining software doesn’t understand context.

          1. Jadelyn*

            LMAO at that last. I get those a lot too – either ones I’m wildly unqualified for, or wildly overqualified for. I get HRBPs and HR Manager positions on the one end, and data entry and admin assistant at the other end. Which, to be fair, my resume has some related stuff because I’m working my way up from having started as an admin assistant, but as you say, data mining software doesn’t get context, so it sees “has those skills” and not “has progressed from there and obviously is not interested in going backwards to continue using those skills”.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              I’ve been offered nursing jobs with exorbitant bonuses if I move to Alaska. I am not a nurse, but I have done administrative support for a nursing program and worked as a nurse recruiter for a while.

              2. Database Developer Dude*

                Wow, Detective Amy Santiago, that comment resonates with me. I did IT work for a financial organization and I keep getting requests from financial firms for a resume…

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        The thinking is that you may appreciate being able to help a contact find a job they’re excited about — that you’ll be helping your contact, not just the recruiter.

        This is actually a pretty common approach!

        1. neverjaunty*

          Sure, but this is networking backward. If a recruiter I already have some kind of relationship with asked me that question, I’d see it as reaching out. But a recruiter I don’t know at all? Don’t skip the step of building a professional network and then ask me to carry your water.

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            Agreed. Cold blasting out contacts to people on LinkedIn or wherever with a specific job listed in their history and going “call me, or tell someone else to call me, or give me your contacts!” is many degrees of dumb. Asking someone you have a relationship or have a contact with for some specific reason already is one thing, shotgunning like this is another.

            I used to get these all the time when I was in the sciences, mass copy-pasted “please agree to be a contact for me or give me your contacts” messages. Pass.

          2. Fdesigner*

            I got jobs for unemployed friends from messages like that from recruiters. I am glad to help my friends

            1. neverjaunty*

              I am glad to help my friends, too. I can help them best by referring them to recruiters I know are good. Someone who cold-favors me like this is telling me they don’t understand networking – a key skill for recruiters.

        2. JamieS*

          That approach sounds like the recruiter is using a person’s emotions and goodwill towards a contact in order to manipulate that person into doing a big part of the recruiter’s job for free.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Eh, this is part of a recruiter’s job. Plus, as others have said, it’s a common way of softly seeing if the person themselves might be interested without pitching them directly and seeming like you’re poaching them. (I’ve definitely sent that kind of email to a person I’m hoping will apply herself, but for political reasons I can’t be seen as being trying to poach her.)

            1. JamieS*

              I still don’t agree with the approach. Strategically reaching out to a contact is one thing, “cold-call” emailing people asking for leads in hopes their emotions will inspire them to hand you leads is another.

              I don’t understand the logic of you sending an email not asking someone to apply for an opening in hopes she’ll apply. If you sent an email to her about the opening and she wound up applying and getting the job wouldn’t it still look like you poached her regardless of the content of the email? I’ll just assume you made the right call but seems unnecessarily convoluted to me.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                It’s not an attempt to play on emotions; it’s just the idea that you might actually appreciate being able to connect a contact with a job lead because many people do.

                Re: the poaching — there’s a difference between actively recruiting someone and them expressing interest in the opening on their own.

                1. JamieS*

                  When the reasoning behind an approach is based completely on emotions (I consider feeling appreciation an emotion) I consider that using a person’s emotions as a means to an end AKA playing on their emotions. At this point it seems like we’ve hit a wall with me saying the wall is “purple” and you saying it’s “lilac” so I will not go on.

                  Re poaching: I was referring to the appearance of poaching not the actual activity. Wouldn’t emailing her with a fairly easy to see through ruse still give the appearance of poaching even if that’s not what was technically done? I’m assuming the politics issue was not wanting to upset her employer not an actual law you were trying to not run afoul of so appearance would matter. It still seems a bit illogical to me but again I think we’ve reached an impasse so I’ll move on.

                  Also, I know “ruse” is too strong for what you described but I can’t think of a more accurate word.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                Using a third party as the point of the question, can be a form of politeness/courtesy. It gives the message recipient an easy out: “Oh, so sorry. Can’t think of anyone.”

                OTH, if the person was interested they could say, “yeah, ME!”

                There are lots of times when building an easy out into the question just makes everyone more comfortable. I offered a friend “first refusal” on some large items I was selling. The easy out here was “refusal”. Later he said that he liked the way I presumed he would NOT buy the item, it made it so much easier to cut through the awkwardness and get down to thinking about the item itself.

    6. HRperson*

      They ARE trying to recruit you. I get these multiple times a week. They know you are a passive candidate and they may hope to work with your current company so don’t want to be seen as deliberately poaching…but they want to know if you’ll bite at a dangled opportunity. They are hoping you’ll either say, “I do know somebody! Me!” or that you’ll do their job for them and recommend someone else qualified.

      2. Jadelyn*

        I was just coming to say that – when we do relationship recruiting (asking employees to send jobs to their networks) we specifically request that they word it as “if you know anyone who may be interested”, because often those emails go out to other nonprofit organizations we’re close partners with and we don’t want to damage that relationship by being seen as explicitly poaching their employees.

        It’s plausible deniability as much as anything else.

    7. Master Bean Counter*

      That’s pretty normal. You can go back and say I am interested. It’s a low-pressure way of finding out if you’d even be interested. And it’s almost the exact email I got that led me to my current position.

    8. De Minimis*

      I get these all the time, I think they’re just trying to get more bang for their buck with an e-mail blast to anyone on their contact list [usually anyone who has ever applied to anything with them.] I don’t think that they even look at the backgrounds of most of the people they’re e-mailing.

    9. Mazzy*

      I got this from an otherwise great well known recruiter once. It was a slap in the face. I had done work above that level actually but my title never reflected it, so maybe they thought I was under qualified

    10. The New Wanderer*

      I would have said it seems like the recruiter just forgot the clause about “If you are interested or know someone who might be,” but given the other comments about receiving similar wording, I guess it’s just a (lousy) recruiting technique. So much simpler and less potentially offensive to include you the recipient as a potential interested candidate!

    11. Iris Carpenter*

      This used to be perfectly standard wording in jurisdictions with laws against poaching employees. It is understood that if you think you fit the vacancy described then you recommend yourself. It is certainly not meant to be “negging” or belittling in any way.

    13. Koko*

      Was it sent to your work email? I get emails worded like that frequently to my work address, and I always kind of assumed it was a polite cover so they don’t appear to be using your company’s resources to poach you out from under them, or so that if a boss or colleague saw the email they wouldn’t wonder if you’ve been passing your resume around.

      If to personal email, I’m not sure.

    14. Epsilon Delta*

      I was supposed to meet a recruiter for lunch. I emailed him the day before to find out details and he responded back that he had to be out of town but we should reschedule. Then he never called to reschedule… until 3 months later. On my wedding day. I wish I hadn’t missed the phone call! Hearing his reaction would’ve been priceless.

    15. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      A few months ago I had a recruiter reach out to me and then ghost me. Maybe I was part of a quota for establishing a certain number of calls/emails? I’m really happy at my job but if someone from a large healthcare conglomerate comes calling, I’m always willing to listen to see if they are offering “money bath” kind of money or if it’s “meh” money!

    16. Bex*

      I get these all the time, I’m assuming it’s from people using LinkedIn for lead generation. The one this morning was for an Assistant Compliance Officer position in Chicago. It requires FINRA Series 7 & Series 24 registrations; Series 63 and Series 65/66 Registration within 90 days in position.

      I’m a nonprofit development/marketing person living in CA. I am none of those things.

    17. Fake old Converse shoes*

      The weirder (and more infuriating) ones are those who automatically assume that you’re a man… C’mon, do your research! Or at least make it gender neutral!

    18. Sam Foster*

      Lots of recruiting firms give new hires a “kit” on what to do and then hand them a random list of contacts to reach out to. It’s basically cold calling in email form, I think it is terrible and it just shows that the recruiter is too new to be worth engaging with.

  9. Cafe au Lait*

    I have two questions I’m hoping that AMA hive-mind can answer. They’re similar, so I’m putting them together.

    1. Is there a good way to ask people I’m training to take notes? I’m going on maternity leave in about six weeks, and I’ve been training my coworkers on my different responsibilities. While my job looks incredibly straightforward on paper, in practice it’s much more complicated. I handle teapot processing for my unit. On average I handle close to a thousand teapots a month. Overall there are thirty different criterias I look at to determine processing.

    While training my coworkers ask good questions during our training sessions, they’re not writing down the answers or even trying to jot down anything to trigger their memories. I’ve explicitly told them “You’ll want to take notes because this is trickier than it looks.” Each of the three people have opted not to do so.

    Yesterday one of my coworkers was working on teapot returns, and she asked so many questions about basic level teapot processing. I happily answered her questions, but couldn’t help think “I went over this with you, and if you’d taken notes you’d have a much better retention of how to handle teapots right now.”

    2. Interviewing while pregnant or post-birth. An internal job popped up that intriques me, and I’m applying as it’s a great match for my skills and interest. If the search committee reviews submissions as they arrive, they could feasibly hold phone interviews mid-October. In person interviews would be two to three weeks after that. I’m due a week into November. There’s a possibility that all interviews could be over before my due date (if baby holds out that long).

    If the interviewing processing takes longer than I think, there’s a very good chance that I’ll be giving birth in the middle of the process. I’m fearful that I’ll need to cancel because I’m either in the middle of giving birth, or just had the baby. I’m not sure what to do if that happens. Waiting until the next “interesting” job comes around isn’t an option; promotional opportunities in my org are becoming scarcer, and I really want to move out of my current role.

    Has anyone been in a similar position. How did you handle it, and what was the outcome?

    1. Susan K*

      You might want to consider writing down the information yourself rather than asking people to take their own notes. This would help not only for training, but is also a good practice for when you move on so that your successor will have this information. It could also bee good to have this stuff written in the event that you have some kind of emergency that takes you out of the office unexpectedly.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. I don’t take notes when I am being trained until there is something specific like a file name or password that I have to remember exactly. But I will sometimes pretend to take notes just to make the trainer feel better, but I never go back to them. I have a solid memory for training situations.
        But writing down all the pertinent information for the trainee could be less stressful.

      2. Cafe au Lait*

        Already done. When I started and was training, I developed a four page processing grid: how the item looks unprocessed, what I need to do, where it goes, and then what do when it came back. I’ve shared this document with everyone I’m training. I’ve encouraged everyone to print it out, and make notes, or copy it to their own Google drives and update with their own words/phrases to help them later.

        1. DDJ*

          So if everything they need to know is in the grid, print out copies for them. Then when they ask, you can cheerfully let them know it’s in the guide if they need to reference it. I don’t mind a little bit of hand-holding at the start of training, especially when tasks are particularly complex. And actually, as I was training my newest employee, I realized there were a few gaps in the training notes that needed to be filled, because certain things have never been formally documented.

          For your own peace of mind, you might want to keep a copy of your document with you so that when you’re going through training someone, you can see if there are any little things missing. I find that when I’m actually walking through a process, if I try to ONLY follow the training document, and there’s something missing, then I can make my own notes and update the document later.

          1. Cafe au Lait*

            I’ve been doing this, and I’ve been grateful for the opportunity to “freshen up” the procedural documents. Overtime things have been tweaked, and while the procedure is still correct on paper, having the updated process on paper is good. It’s also been a great opportunity to clarify with my boss “If coworker A is doing X, should they also proceed with Y, or should coworker B handle that?”

            If anything goofy happens when I’m on leave, I know it won’t be my fault. Right now I feel responsible for getting as many ducks in a row as possible.

            1. AnonAndOn*

              “If anything goofy happens when I’m on leave, I know it won’t be my fault.”

              I’d say you’ve pretty much done all you can do on your end. If they choose not to take notes it’s their problem. You can’t make them do what they don’t want to do or are unwilling to do. You’re right that anything they’ve overlooked will not be your fault.

        2. nonymous*

          If you’re especially anxious or concerned about a trainee, ask them to walk you through the particular scenarios as a final check.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      If the three people are all doing the same thing, might it not be more efficient for you to write down some of the details? I don’t think every criteria is going to come up or be remembered during training, even if they do take notes. It seems like this would help the current situation, make training the new person easier if you do get the new job, and generally have better documentation for the future.

    3. zapateria la bailarina*

      For your first question – I think when your coworker asks questions that you know you definitely covered with her, you should say something. After you answer the questions you could say something like “this is a really common thing you’ll encounter, I’d suggest writing all this down so that you can reference it next time this comes up”

      1. TL -*

        Or just ask them to check their notes. That’s what I do – oh, we covered this last time, do you mind checking your notes first?

    4. Marcy Marketer*

      For question #1, I’d recommend addressing repeat questions in the moment. You could say, “Nancy, I answered these questions on X day. I don’t mind repeating myself once, but please take notes so that I don’t have to go over this again.”

      You can also say, “great questions! I went over these answers on Friday. What do you remember from that conversation? ((Wait)). Well, maybe Perceval can refresh your memory after this session, since he was also here for the Friday training session.”

    5. EddieSherbert*

      No help with #2 but for #1…

      I had a junior editor at my former job who drove me NUTS because he never took notes and CONSTANTLY needed retraining. I finally was like “you need to take notes.” My most effective tactic to make that actually happen? Awkwardly writing stuff down FOR HIM during meetings like “oh, this is a good reminder!” (in a cheery tone).

      It was amazing who quickly he was like, okay, I can take my own notes…

      (we did have a good relationship after he got into the swing of things an didn’t seem to hold the “notes” thing against me!)

    6. not so super-visor*

      In training, I’ve used either bluntness (you should really be taking notes on this) or mock surprise (you’re not going to take notes on this?) to get the point across. It always worries me when trainees can’t figure this out on their own. The ones who are openly resistant to note taking (even after suggesting it) are usually the ones who don’t make it.

      1. not so super-visor*

        I’d like to add that there are written instructions handed to these folks, but when you’re walking someone through a procedure, they should still probably take some of their own notes for reference.

    7. katamia*

      Not everyone learns the same way. I agree that it sounds like the particular person you talk about here would probably have benefited from taking notes, but some people have trouble focusing on what people are talking about if they’re trying to write at the same time. Others aren’t very good at taking notes. Others might be decent at taking notes but might not realize Very Important Information A is actually important and might focus on Relatively Unimportant in the Grand Scheme of Things Information B instead. I agree that you should write down what you want them to know.

      1. TL -*

        I agree that there should be a written protocol – and there is in this case – but when training someone, they should also take notes (unless they have a really good memory then I don’t care). The trainer can’t write instructions that reinvent the wheel nor can they magically know what everyone knows and doesn’t know. You write instructions for the level of knowledge that you expect your audience to have and trust them to take notes to fill in the gaps.

      2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        +1 to not everyone learning the same way. If I take notes the first time something is being explained to me I find the notes absolutely useless (aside from specific passwords/file names etc.). I just don’t know what I should be focusing on and I need some sort of idea of what the point of the process is to start to put together coherent notes.

      3. Elizabeth H.*

        Same, I am not much of a note taker. I do TAKE notes often but I realize that I virtually never ever actually read them and they just turn into messy piles of post-it notes all over my desk. I have an excellent memory for processes and for figuring out how to do things that I’ve seen someone do once.

    8. neverjaunty*

      TELL them to take notes. Don’t just suggest it.

      If you can make a quick handout or FAQ sort of thing to give them afterward, that might also help.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Gloves off here. You are not telling them to play in traffic or walk barefoot across burning coals.

        Tell them that you want to see how far they can get with your printed instructions and their notes. Tell them this practice for when you are not within feet of them and they have to figure out what to do next.

        So tell them note taking is not optional. You see by the questions they are asking that they have not been taking notes, so from today forward, note taking will be part of the job.

        Now. There are some folks who actually do not need notes. IF people are grasping the work and doing it with few or no questions, then I would leave those people alone and not speak to them directly about their lack of note taking.

        I had a boss train me to do a 22 step process. Each step had variables that required different actions. He did not let me take notes because I was wasting his time. He wasted more time going over various points and fixing my work than if he had just waited a few seconds for me to write it down. At the bottom of all this was respect issues. He felt a dog or a horse could do the job, it did not require intelligence. This was his way of thinking.

    9. Jill_P*

      I don’t have any personal experience with having kids, and I’m in Canada where our mat leave can be (and usually is at my company) a year long.
      So with those caveats, a director I used to work for was once on a panel discussion around this kind of topic, and she said she interviewed for a promotion while pregnant- and when she disclosed this fact, the response was “then one of your first jobs will be hiring someone to cover for you”. She got the job, and encouraged all of us not to let family planning stand in the way of seeking career progression. I hope it works out as well for you!

    10. Agile Phalanges*

      To get your trainees to take notes, start saying you think you’re going into labor NOW, so they might want to write this down, as you’ll be unavailable for questions. :-) I’m half-joking, but when I started my job here, I was trained (including in payroll, no pressure) by someone who, halfway through the first day of training me, told me “oh by the way, I’m going out of town for the next two weeks, and not just out of town, but on a rafting trip completely out of cell phone range.” My predecessor had been fired, my boss doesn’t even have the computer system installed, the person training me was literally the only one who could have helped me, and was going to be unavailable the second time I did payroll. Good thing I’m a quick study and good note-taker! It actually went fine, but I was sweating bullets, for sure!

    11. CMart*

      For #2) I had some final round interviews while ~9 months pregnant. I was pretty much just taking things on a day to day basis. I always made sure to follow up with my interviewers about next steps, what they thought the timeline would be, etc… And then if I felt good about things pressed for an accelerated timeline for myself if it was feasible for them.

      For the job I accepted, I knew after the first round of interviews that I definitely wanted to work there and if they gave me an offer I would accept. They were dragging their feet and I essentially told them as much. I let my contact know that I was very, very interested in this job and if they were interested in me if they could please speed up at least my end of the process ASAP due to a time crunch on my part. I got called back for another interview the next day and extended the offer a couple hours after I left.

      The funny part is, despite being ENORMOUSLY pregnant, they were all perplexed when I then requested my start date be pushed back by three months and shocked when the reason was “uh, I’m going to have a baby like, tomorrow.”

      1. Oilpress*

        I don’t think this is a usual scenario. Most employers will require someone to start as soon as possible if they have posted a job. Anyone with common sense would recognize your advanced pregnancy status during interviews and wonder if they can afford to hire someone to fill a position who can’t start working for a few months.

    12. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      On #1, I have a different take than some folks above. You’ve already counseled them to take notes and they are refusing. When they ask you a question covered by your training, you’re well within your rights to tell them just that and then don’t help. And if they try to call you while out on leave, don’t answer the phone and let them learn the hard way. They are being really rude with your time. You have a limited time at the office and they’re taking advantage of you willing to be an accommodating coworker. You could also bring this up with your manager and let your manager know that your coworkers failing to take notes in training is interfering with your productivity.

      As for #2, one of my direct reports is in your situation. She came to me to discuss it and I told her to apply, and I’ve lobbied my boss to schedule our interviews in a way to accommodate her pregnancy. It’s not only the right thing to do, but this employee is fantastic and we want to keep her! I’m assuming your pregnancy is known in the office and if so, if you have the ear of a peer to those on the hiring committee, I would start there. If you don’t have that kind of relationship, or if you don’t want to disclose your pregnancy, or if there are other issues at play, you could make it known with HR and ask for an accommodation when you apply for the job. Your comments to HR would be, in California, protected as part of your personnel file, and protected as a request for accommodation under FMLA and our state’s similar laws.

      Best of luck on the interview and as my Irish wife would say, “have fun with the wee one on the way!”

      1. Specialk9*

        You are awesome for lobbying for a pregnant employee – sadly many wouldn’t, super short sighted – and for being so aware of retention of a stellar employee.

    13. RemoteTeapotInspector*

      Is it possible to conduct the sessions virtually? If the processes are all on the computer or you can point a webcam at the desk, etc., have everyone call into a video call and record the call. That way every last step is recorded for posterity, and any questions got answered and those got recorded too. Then attach the recording to a central wiki or just email it out. This approach is a very valuable when dealing with co-irkers who think there time is just too valuable to pay attention or do the work themselves.

    14. Chaordic One*

      Well I would certainly take notes and I think you’re being very reasonable in your request. In some cases you might create notes yourself, but that really is more hand holding than I’d like to get into.

      I would certainly apply for position while pregnant. If your employer is not completely obtuse they would certainly consider your application and candidacy for the position. When I worked in HR, although I didn’t have much influence, I would give qualified candidates such as yourself a special accommodation to get them interviewed ASAP. Your employer may not accommodate you, but you should definitely apply. Maybe everything will work out.

    15. AJennifer*

      When I train someone on a new task or process I ask them to submit notes/bullet points for me to review so I can fill in any gaps or add any important info they missed and we regroup to review what those are. Some people take notes religiously and still mess things up. On the other hand, one particular person I have been working with to take over more of my work never takes notes during training but an hour after we’re done will send me her write up which is almost always spot on and we can quickly review any nuances that she missed. Having good documentation to start with definitely helps.

  10. Non-Trad Bob*

    Is there an AAM-like website for PhD programs (STEM) and/or Statements of Purpose?

    What I’ve found so far is garbage. I’ve been out of school for a while and I don’t know what’s “hip” anymore, haha. As far as essays go, mine aren’t that bad! But, I do realize that they lack something…Oomph? I want to write a great SoP, not just an OK one. I also know the “flow” of my writing isn’t that great.

    1. Combinatorialist*

      FemaleScienceProfessor is an old blog (not currently active) that has a lot of good information about applying to grad school and what not. TheProfessorIsIn has some but is more geared to once you are in PhD programs and then getting a job after. I highly recommend both of them (math PhD student).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I found TheProfessorIsIn to be very geared toward the liberal arts and less useful for STEM, myself. But lots of interesting information on academic job applications and interviews, which may someday be helpful to me.

    2. Anon One Time*

      I applied to several biochem PhD programs and also served as a student assistant in the recruiting process while a PhD student. I don’t think anyone ever cared about statements of purpose. That being said, I imagine if a candidate’s statement of purpose was garbage, they would have been weeded out at some point. The university I was at was top 5 for this particular program, and I think everyone with a good GPA who had done research before was invited to interview. And everyone who could confidently and accurately talk about their research was offered a spot. Really, the professors cared the most about finding people who had worked in a research lab before (usually as an undergrad), knew they liked it, and were willing to work in a research lab for the next 5 years.

      With the statement of purpose, I would focus on communicating that you have worked in a research lab before, and that you enjoy working in a research lab. Because a STEM PhD is many years of working in a research lab.

      1. Artemesia*

        The main thing they are looking for is passionate curiosity about some research questions that fit the program. They are hiring future researchers. so long as your writing is decent enough, it is the content i.e. the obvious knowledge of the field and what the program faculty are doing in this field and desire to pursue particular types of issues in this field that will stand out. PhD programs in these fields should be for people who can’t bear to not know more about X and do research on X; that is what you need to convey.

    3. Simone R*

      Yeah there’s nothing really good online. I would avoid gradcafe at all costs which is probably the most common place people go. There’s a lot of advice there that says if you do X it will never work out for you, and most of it I did and was very successful in my PhD applications.

      I think the best thing to do is ask other people who have applied to PhD programs to look it over. Your recommendation letter writers could be helpful, but for me the best people were my peers who had applied to programs recently.

      The best advice I was given was to make sure my statement sounded passionate enough-they’re looking for people who are willing to put their life on hold and spend the majority of their time thinking about a very tiny problem. I had a lot of dumb sounding sentences like “I was proud to X” or “I was excited by Y” and as silly as it was it definitely made it ‘pop’. You’re also ahead if you’re working on it now! I think I started around November for December deadlines.

    4. Annalee*

      Depending on your field & how competitive it is, there might be some discipline-specific information out there, because I imagine the conventions vary widely. I’m in a clinical psychology phd program and there is a TON of information about applying to those. If there isn’t any info, your recommenders might be the best people to ask.

      Also, definitely avoid GradCafe. It is just a cesspool of anxiety.

      1. Non-Trad Bob*

        LOL, thanks!

        I was perusing CafePharma earlier this morning based on the comments from the GPA question (I was curious as to which pharma company hires based on GPA since I have a few friends in the field) and yikes!!! Spoiler alert: it’s Purdue; 2.8 GPA.

        Note to self: avoid all websites that start or end with CAFE :)

    5. FTW*

      See if you can connect with current students (sometimes admissions departments will have ambassadors). Although they can’t review for you, you can ask them how they approached theirs.

    6. Student*

      Try to put yourself in the mind of the people reading your statement of purpose.

      First off, they have little time – keep it short.

      Second, they may not be native English speakers, varying a lot by field. Keep away from idioms and slang. You can write about complex ideas, but pick vocabulary choices and sentence structures that are common, not recondite.

      Third, if you were a professor, deciding whether to take on an apprentice or let them into your school, what would you want to know? Cover letter tips will work well here. Probably interest in the subject matter, dedication, enthusiasm, personality, relevant prior experience. They want to know that you will cheerily slave away in a lab for hours, that you won’t give up as soon as things get hard and unpleasant (they will), that you care about the work they’re doing – the topics they research, the field they’re in.

    7. nonymous*

      assuming that you’re not applying to theSnootiestProgramEvah (likely not since you have taken a break in the ed process), the best advice I have is making contact with some professors in the dept. My program had an initial rotation year (some schools compress this experience into a semester), and you will get so much more out of that process if you have done the legwork to find a good match.

      Right now is especially busy with the new school year, but read some publications coming out of the professor’s lab and work on asking a couple questions via email, framed towards exploring whether that lab is a possible good fit. The best recommendation will be if someone on the admission committee advocates for you. Idk how long you’ve been out of school, but if it’s a big gap (3+ years) you will have to demonstrate that you’re not obsolete. Maybe you have direct work experience, but if not a short genuine exchange showing scientific curiosity would do the trick.

      1. blackcat*

        Even if you are applying to “theSnootiestProgramEvah” this is good advice. It is even good advice if you are unsure you want to go to a particular institution but admire someone’s work.

        -Signed, someone who decided not to go to “theSnootiestProgramEvah” but has benefitted professionally by networking with professors at theSnootiestProgramEvah.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      For statement of purpose, focussed enthusiasm is good. Make it clear that you’ve researched the department, and have an idea of what sort of research they do and why you’re interested in it. Tie in pre-grad school research or related experience and how it fuelled your interest in a career in that field. If you have a particularly area of research interest, bring it up and highlight any experience you have in it, and why you chose it.

  11. ThatGirl*

    I’m about two months into a brand-new role at a new-to-me company. It’s customer-facing but I’m more responsible for expanding our digital outreach and managing a number of things including our knowledge base, to make sure we’re all pulling from the same, most up to date sources of information. There are four CS reps and our team lead, who is my manager as well, but I’m sorta-kinda parallel to her (originally there was another manager who was going to be in charge of us both but she was laid off in a reorg).

    This week team lead told me she wanted me to start trying to pry info out of the reps, to make sure nobody is hoarding info that could be useful, or using old info that’s no longer relevant. She also wants to update our policies as needed and I’m in charge of leading that. I have my first meeting this afternoon with one of the likeliest toughest nuts to crack. I’m not entirely sure what I’m doing and a little nervous :) So… offer advice or wish me luck :P

    1. Christmas Carol*

      I’d take as much advantage as possible of newbie status to ask questions of multiple sources, and compare the responses. Why are you doing this? is taken much differently from a trainee than a supervisor.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, I have plans to talk to everyone else on the team, individually, and ask them why they do things the way they do and all that jazz. We’ll see how today goes and adjust from there. But I’m likely to get some pushback on “WHY are we changing things!” … I do have the team lead’s support of course.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Why are we changing things?

          1. Oh, I don’t know that we’re definitely changing anything. We’re just getting a grip on what everyone’s doing.

          2. Some people might not be up to date. (Implied: Not you, obviously.)

          1. ThatGirl*

            Unrelated: I actually had a customer contact the other day who went by Rusty Shackelford. They did not respond to my query as to whether their real name was Dale.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              Of course they didn’t. Because now they’re hiding in their basement bunker, and they don’t get internet down there.

      2. The Other Dawn*

        Yes, I agree. The fact that OP is new is good when having to pry information from people. I’ve done that plenty. I always say that I’m new here and want to understand the process, how it works, what is needed, etc. And if there are any procedures laying around, read those first. Then when you talk to people you’ll be able to see if they’re following them. If not, it’s a chance to ask why something is done differently than the procedure. Maybe they found a better, more efficient way to do something and the procedures didn’t get updated. Or maybe they’ve gone rogue and the deviation from the procedures is costing the department/company money/time, etc.

  12. Folklorist*

    It’s your sick-day ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! I’m going to sit here and cough quietly to myself while you go out and do something that you’ve been putting off and then come back and brag about it!

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Feel better! I told my HE (see below) that if he’d only come to me when he first found a problem with a particular spreadsheet (which, btw, was nothing more than him not knowing how to change row height), he wouldn’t need now to find all the changes to the original spreadsheet that he’s made over the past year and transfer them to the new spreadsheet. It sounds snotty as I wrote it, but I said it just as one would give a reminder to an entry level employee (which I did on Wednesday–“Remember I reminded you on Friday to submit your timesheet, but you said you would do it on Monday, and then you were sick for two days. Now you might get paid late, so in the future you shouldn’t put off submitting your time”). He mumbled under his breath in response, but I did what I needed to as a manager.

    2. Liane*

      Sit down and do the art for my latest blog article. I know what I want in the image, I have all the models I need. But I need to just sit down and put everything together. I’m still learning the latest Daz Studio, and–let’s not talk about my learning curve, okay?

    3. Lazy Cat*

      Not work related (except that work contributes to the problem…), but I finally talked to my doctor about my stress levels and anxiety! And after lunch I’ll reply to the work letter that has been on my desk for a week.

    4. Lenora Jane*

      I just made a very overdue appointment to go see my car insurance guy about…getting car insurance, so I can switch my out-of-state registration to in-state!

    6. Ama*

      Heh, I keep forgetting to make a hair appointment and it’s actually going to be a work issue shortly (we have our largest fundraising gala in two weeks and it’s been six months since I had a haircut). So I just did that.

    7. Foreign Octopus*

      Since I work from home, I tend to procrastinate the home stuff so today I did the washing up that has been accumulating during a busy week. I also cooked a huge chorizo pasta bake that’ll keep me going over the weekend. Feel better soon!

    9. Al Lo*

      I took a vacation day, so today has been all about dealing with stuff I’ve been procrastinating. Eye appointment, price comparisons on my car insurance before my renewal comes up, some banking phone calls and business that I’ve been putting off, making a dentist appointment for next week… etc, etc, etc.

  13. Susan K*

    I’m curious to see what people think about my friend’s interview strategy. He applied for a management position in our department. Our company has a very rigid hiring process, in which the hiring manager is required to select interview questions from a pre-approved question list provided by the corporate office. Three interviewers score each answer on a scale of 1-10, and then they average all the scores to give a total interview score for each candidate.

    My friend decided that, instead of answering the interview questions, he would prepare a Powerpoint presentation on why he should get the job. He brought his laptop to the interview and told the interviewers that he was not going to answer their questions, but would instead be giving a 30-minute presentation.

    If you are/were a hiring manager, is there any situation in which you would hire this person? I think I would run away screaming, because this seems like a huge red flag that this is going to be a problem employee. The sad part is that I have reason to believe my friend is actually great at interviewing, because I heard he got an impressive interview score when he interviewed for his current job. He thinks his Powerpoint presentation showed initiative and creativity, but I am pretty sure his refusal to answer the questions automatically eliminated him from consideration. I’m actually surprised that the hiring manager even let him do his presentation instead of just ending the interview. What would you do?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Oh hell no.

      I would have cut him off before he even started the presentation and told him that he either answers the questions or he can leave.

    3. Rincat*

      I’d tell him he can do his presentation at the end of the interview IF there is time. I’m not wild about pre-selected questions (I work in public higher ed so that is common), but I’d still want him to answer questions and not just assume he knows best what kind of information I want to hear.

      1. PatPat*

        Sooooo arrogant. He’s saying that HE knows better how their hiring process should go and HE knows better what information is relevant to the hiring committee but he really, really doesn’t. It’s such a bad idea for him to do this.

    5. Amber Rose*

      No. A PowerPoint presentation by itself is not the worst thing, although it’s gimmicky and awful and kind of presumptuous, but “I will not be answering your questions” is a straight up deal breaker. You have no way of knowing if your presentation addressed all their concerns, and honestly, my first instinct on hearing that is,
      “well, then I guess this meeting is over. Take your laptop and leave.”

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. The point of an interview is to answer questions. The PowerPoint may talk about interesting things, but the interviewers may be asking completely different questions. Some interviews focus on skills, others focus on match to the company, some talk about experience…you can’t guess what the interviewers need.

    7. Temperance*

      I would absolutely not hire him. I would seriously be put off that my potential employee has already decided that he knows better than I do.

      I’ve had a bad experience with a know-it-all dude type who was my direct report, though, so this would be a hardcore no for me. I wouldn’t have let him continue and waste my time, though.

    8. Piglet*

      Double Nope. My employer has the same exact interview process and not answering means a zero on those questions and they won’t hire you due to the policy of the scoring requirement. On top of the huuuuuge red flag of not following simple directions and doing whatever he wanted.

    9. DivineMissL*

      I’d shut it down before he got started. It’s really not a good idea for him to decide that he knows better than the interviewer what skills are needed for the job, or to presume that he has covered everything that they might want to know about him. I’d peg him as someone who is overly controlling and inflexible – a problem employee.

    10. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      If I had a candidate show up that stated they wanted to take over the interview and do their own thing, I wouldn’t continue at all. That would make me think the candidate wouldn’t follow directive/protocols if he didn’t feel like it, and that he was the type to make everything all about him. Definitely a strongly-negative impression for me.

    11. Red Reader*

      Oh, god, absolutely not. Like the Detective says, I don’t think he’d even get through opening up the laptop – “I’m not answering your questions” leads directly to “then get out of here and stop wasting my time.”

    12. The Other Dawn*

      I’d be highly annoyed if someone did this and would likely end the interview as soon as it was apparent they would not answer questions. If I’m the hiring manager, there are certain questions I want to ask in order to determine if someone is right for the job. Telling me they’re going to not answer questions and instead hold me hostage for 30 minutes with a presentation I didn’t ask for tells me it’s all about them and they would likely be A Problem if I were to hire them.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Also, in my particular part of the industry, presenting a Power Point as a way to show creativity would be so out of sync to the extreme and unnecessary, as my particular function doesn’t require THAT kind of creativity. Maybe if they could show through Power Point how creative they are at digging for information on customers to detect money laundering…but even then, hard nope.

    13. Seal*

      Nope. At the very least, he’s demonstrating that he can’t follow directions and doesn’t respect the hiring process.

    14. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Zero. I’d cut him off and just say, “Actually, I have specific questions that I want to ask you.” The fact that they didn’t do that speaks to what a rigid hiring environment they’re in — it sounds like they’re not allowed to think for themselves at all.

      1. dappertea*

        Maybe they were curious? I could see a few of our hiring teams being so shocked and/or curious about what could possibly be in that presentation that they might let him go through part of it, but only after we asked our questions. And we would never consider hiring that person after that.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Right. I’d know, then and there, that we were not going to hire this guy. But I’d let him go through his show just for the entertainment value. (And, okay, to show we gave him a chance if we happen to need it for CYA purposes.)

      2. hbc*

        I’ve got total leeway in my hiring environment, and I would have let him do it, probably. Somewhat because I tend to cave in-the-moment to assertiveness like this, but mostly because I want the full story to tell later.

    15. Snark*

      There is absolutely no way in hell that I would hire this person if they pulled this kind of stunt. I wouldn’t even so much as give him the rest of the interview. The moment of the declaration that he wasn’t going to answer my questions, I’d have cracked up and told him to get the hell out.

      And it is a stunt, a gimmicky, agonizingly self-conscious, arrogant stunt that makes me wonder if he’s capable of subordinating his massive ego enough after the interview to, say, follow my instructions or incorporate my feedback into a work product. It doesn’t show initiative and creativity, it shows arrogance and a sense of personal exceptionalism, and I cannot think of anything that reflects worse on the character of the interviewee or which would sink their chances faster.

        2. neverjaunty*

          this.gif

          Ignoring clear instructions and doing whatever the hell you feel like isn’t initiative and creativity; it’s just arrogance.

    16. strawberries and raspberries*

      I feel like in the moment I would let them go through with it to see what it is exactly that they think they are proving to me, but ultimately I would not hire them for subverting the rules. Plus, I tend to see this loose Dunning-Krueger kind of relationships between people who think they’re brilliant and doing the most on PowerPoint presentations, like they’re absolutely awful at a key part of their job but they think people will be *impressed* by their *PowerPoint skills.*

      2. Gaia*

        I will say that a big part of a friend’s job is creating Power Point presentations and hers are actually freaking amazing. They are beautiful, well branded and fluid. But most people’s “skills” include fancy colors and annoying transitions.

        1. Jadelyn*

          So many people forget that with PP, less is more. If it doesn’t enhance your message in some way, DON’T DO IT. PP has a million flourishes you can add so that you can pick and choose the best ones for a variety of situations…not so that you can use ALL OF THEM AT ONCE.

          1. Specialk9*

            Thanks for this reminder. I have to do a conference presentation to strangers that I’m nervous about, and I am leaning toward sparse and clean PPT but keep thinking, maybe more?

            1. AcademiaNut*

              Sparse, clean and easy to read. And make sure that your slides are readable to people in the very back of the room with eyes that are older than 40.

    17. dappertea*

      There is no way. There’s a reason we ask the questions that we do; for any candidate to come in assuming they know everything we were about to ask is incredibly assumptive and rude. Also, it eliminates the ability to see the candidate actually engage with us in normal conversation.

    18. Jadelyn*

      Honestly I’d laugh him out of the room. If you’re not willing to answer questions, then you’re not here for an interview, you’re here to do a sales pitch, which isn’t what I want from you or what I asked for, so don’t waste my time. And you’ve just shown me in the most blatant and unmistakable way that you are the type of person who ignores explicit instructions from your superiors in favor of doing things the way you want to do them. No way would I want to saddle myself with that kind of headache.

    20. Temperance*

      Also, I’d like to maybe suggest that the phrase “show initiative” is meaningless. I mean, it was levied at me when I was a teenager shoveling popcorn at a movie theater, because I wasn’t properly folding paper towels into 4 squares so I could use less.

      1. only acting normal*

        Oh yes. “Show initiative by following these processes to the letter without question, and don’t ever step outside the lines because we will scream at/fire you if you do”.

    21. PB*

      I would never hire a person who did this. I don’t know what I’d do if a candidate tried this. I’d probably be completely flabbergasted.

    22. Lia*

      I have been in the hiring manager’s shoes before (uh, last week, as a matter of fact) and to be honest, I was just stunned into silence. The candidate was internal, so familiar with how we hire, but decided to answer the first question of “tell us about yourself” with a 45 minute spiel that included handouts and visual aids, none of which were asked for.

      Needless to say, as the position requires adhering to strictly regulated protocols (the Feds aren’t too amused with responses that meander from their request), candidate did not advance to stage 2. Shame, because they were our #1 pick prior to the interview.

    26. Troutwaxer*

      The only way I could imagine hiring this person would be if they were an internal candidate trying to work around the weird interview system.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Even if they were, though, this isn’t how you go about changing an organizational process you disagree with. If your organization has a bad process, there are acceptable ways to push back and try to change things, but “refuse to do it and insist on doing things your way anyway” isn’t one of them.

    27. ArtK*

      I wouldn’t hire, but then again, I wouldn’t be working for a company that regulates the hiring process like that. Pick from a list of corporate-defined questions? Unless someone at corporate is brilliant, I doubt that the approved list can cover every possible job and situation.

    28. Artemesia*

      Nope Nope Nope. Who wants to hire an asshat who wants to micromanage the interview process? ‘I’m not going to do what you ask me to do’ fails the basic entry level element of ‘Job.’

    29. SnarkyLibrarian*

      Yuck. I would run away screaming from that dude. Also, in my department that would earn him an automatic zero on our hiring score sheet. No one shows “initiative and creativity” by blatantly ignoring a company’s hiring process. I feel sympathy irritation on behalf of anyone who has to interview him!

    30. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      Your friend’s strategy is great if your friend never wants to promote. This is such a terrible idea.

      They outlined what they wanted. They want to be able to compare applicants on an apples to apples basis. Your friend is walking in and saying, “look, I’m a banana!” And your friend will be known as the Power Point employee who can’t follow direction.

    31. Samiratou*

      This is the kind of thing that makes people rant about entitled Millenials who need to get offa their lawn.

      I agree with people that the selection of questions & scoring thing is stupid, and almost certainly based on fear of a discrimination lawsuit, but still. Refusing to answer their questions and giving a presentation all about yourself, leaving (possibly) no time for the interviewers to find out what they need to know? That’s just plain rude and thoughtless.

    32. Niccola M.*

      He did this for a management position? It’s a bad idea for any position, but no company wants a Chaos Muppet in management.

    35. nep*

      Hell no. I’d stop him. I don’t even think I’d give him the opportunity to answer our questions after that. His approach would be enough of a deal-breaker that going any further would be a waste of time.

    37. Sam Foster*

      Not even the slightest chance in the world I would hire this person and if they were an internal candidate I’d actually consider contacting their manager as a heads up that the interviewee wasn’t aligned with her the organization operated.

    38. Zip Zap*

      I wouldn’t let him give the presentation. I would explain the interview format and the rationale behind it. I would then tell him that it’s a requirement for all applicants; if he wants to be considered, he needs to go through the same process as everyone else. If he wasn’t ok with that, I would reject his application and suggest that he take his PowerPoint to a company that would be interested in it.

      I’m an outside the box sort of person. I like to do things differently and find exceptions to rules. But if you want an exception, you have to ask nicely ahead of time and make a good case for it. What he did was disrespectful to other applicants and reaks of entitlement.

  14. Ms. Mad Scientist*

    I mentioned my friend last week who mentions God on LinkedIn, and I’m wondering if I should say something to her about how she’s coming across pertaining to her resume and her poor attitude in professional online spaces.
    Relevant information: she has worked in engineering for the past 15 years, has been out of work for 1.5 years due to layoff. Her resume is 11 pages long and contains a lot of repetitive, irrelevant, and inappropriate information. On LinkedIn, she writes weekly rants about poor interview experiences and bad recruiter encounters, among other things.
    A couple of (male) recruiters on LinkedIn have recently called her out on her resume and her attitude. She fired back at one saying she “has to” have her resume that way and went on a rant about sexism and H1-B workers. I absolutely agree that sexism is a huge problem in STEM fields, but her behavior isn’t helping her.
    I’m wondering if she might be more receptive to constructive criticism from me, as a woman in a STEM field. I was also out of work for eight months before my current employer, so I know how it feels to be repeatedly rejected. I won’t mention the God thing because she knows I’m an atheist and I expect a 100% chance of being dismissed outright.

    Here is a potential script. Suggestions?
    Dear [Friend], I’m concerned the way you’re coming across in professional communication is giving potential employers the wrong impression of you, and it’s hurting your ability to get a job. I sympathize you’ve been out of work for so long, and I absolutely agree sexism is a problem in engineering. That may be why you’re not being considered. I get that interviewing is repetitive and applying with an ATS is more painful than setting yourself on fire. I get that repeated rejection absolutely, positively, sucks. But I think making some changes will help you get a job.
    It’s fine to dislike resume norms (2 pages or less, concise), but deviating wildly from those expectations as you have comes across as unprofessional, inappropriate, and unable to communicate effectively. And if that is their first impression of you, hiring managers will question how you will perform if hired. They will pass you over in favor of the dozens of advanced degreed, experienced, skilled applicants that are applying for the same job.
    Your conversations on LinkedIn and your website FAQ is part of the impression you’re making. This should be you on your most polished, most professional behavior. Your rants on LinkedIn, angry replies to constructive criticism, and snippy responses in your FAQ indicate an attitude problem, and that puts you as a huge disadvantage. I doubt you want to work with someone with a poor attitude-neither do most people. If you need to rant, do so, but save it for a private blog or journal.
    I’d be happy to give you more specific feedback on your resume and communication. Best of luck to you.

    Sorry this is so long. Thanks for reading!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you think your friend would be receptive to your feedback? If not, I wouldn’t bother wasting your energy on it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        The friend may be in a spot where they would rather wallow than get a job. If that’s the case, then any kind of talk won’t help. The friend will clean things up when they are ready.

    2. Snark*

      My feeling is that she’s so defensive and is nurturing such a chip on her shoulder that you will accomplish nothing.

    3. Temperance*

      I think this might be a good conversation to have in person, if you can. The script seems a little preachy, and even though I know you’re right, she doesn’t sound like the kind of person who takes feedback well. She’s presumably a professional adult, and a lot of the advice is very 101 or geared towards high schoolers.

      Not knowing how she mentions God, I will say that it’s completely inappropriate unless she’s looking for a job related to ministry.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, I would do this in person or over the phone. You could start by email and say something like, “I think I’ve seen things in your LinkedIn posts that might really be hurting your job search. Would you like to talk and I can tell you what has concerned me?” But just launching into it in email isn’t likely to be effective.

        1. Fake Eleanor*

          Yes. As they mention on the Awesome Etiquette podcast, you want to ask permission to have the discussion before you launch into it. And in this case, if you get pushback to the very idea of having that discussion, you can avoid extended unpleasantness.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, and I would also spin the feedback as more positive, like “I think since this is the norm in business presentation, a 2-page resume will get you more responses than an 11-page one.” Give reasons: “Hiring managers are busy and they need something concise.”

      2. EddieSherbert*

        +1 unfortunately, the feedback is (appropriately) harsh and she doesn’t sound like someone who would take it well… I wouldn’t send her this. In-person conversation if anything.

      3. Snark*

        “She’s presumably a professional adult, and a lot of the advice is very 101 or geared towards high schoolers.”

        You’re not wrong. But….if her judgment is so poor that she takes LinkedIn, of all platforms, to rant about negative interview experiences and aggressively defends her 11-page resume, she may kind of need that level of coaching.

        2. Temperance*

          I definitely think she needs a lot of coaching or maybe to talk to someone so she stops showing her ass on Linked In, but I just don’t think this email will do it.

    4. zapateria la bailarina*

      Do you live near her? I really think this would come across better if you addressed in person, maybe over coffee or lunch?

      1. Ms. Mad Scientist*

        Yeah, I think you guys are right that it sounds preachy and it won’t go over well. I’m not going to send the letter.
        I’ll look at a real time conversation (we live in different states, so we don’t see each other in person).

        I appreciate everyone’s input on this. Thank you! :)

    5. Becka*

      I agree with everyone else and say do it in person or over the phone. As someone who works in the engineering field, engineers and firms loved LinkedIn and are very engaged on it. It’s even bigger issue that she is bad mouthing on there, because in my experience firms do connect with candidates. Engineering resumes tend be longer than average, but ten pages seems excessive. Also considering a female middle level engineer is like a unicorn, everyone wants ones (at least in my field.) It’a amazing it has taken that long to find a job and shows how much she is turning companies off.

    7. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I’ve learned to never put personal criticisms in writing. Never. Don’t do it. Even if you think it’s helpful and think she would be receptive. It WILL come back and bite you on the ass.

      Have a face to face conversation with her.

    8. strawberries and raspberries*

      She sounds like the kind of person who also likes to throw around the phrase “We’re all adults here so let’s act like adults,” so if you’d like to avoid that on top of everything else, I’d have this conversation in person as her job search comes up organically.

    10. Specialk9*

      No good deed goes unpunished.

      Someone who rants, for any reason, on LinkedIn, is not a reasonable person. You cannot fix that. You don’t want to get in the vitriol crosshairs.

      Her rants on sexism and immigrants, on a professional networking site, tell potential employers everything they need to know about her. Don’t go down a rabbithole with her.

    11. Sam Foster*

      I cannot imagine a scenario where this would end well so my advice is to leave it alone and stay out of it.

    12. Chaordic One*

      I know it will be difficult, but I would certainly approach your friend and have the conversation with her.

      It’s like throwing a life line out to someone who is drowning. Maybe she won’t grab onto it, but I kind of of feel like you need to make the effort.

  15. the gold digger*

    My summer intern (now a college junior) had her last day two weeks ago. We really, really miss her. She was wonderful – she could see the big picture and connect small engineering tasks to it. She would look for answers on her own before asking me for help. (And she was good at it – I told her to teach herself how to use Sharepoint AND SHE DID IT.) She made a huge contribution while she was here.

    She has a great attitude, worked hard, never complained, and did a great job. When she left, she left me a thank-you note. I miss her.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          The other thing you could do, if she has a LinkedIn profile, is leave a recommendation there.

          1. Triplestep*

            I was going to say – if she doesn’t already have a Linkedin profile, you could help her set one up. (My daughter is a college senior, and I helped with hers telling her she should trust me that it would be important soon.)

    2. Temperance*

      I think if you can, it would be awesome if you could offer to write her an LoR or offer a recommendation. My spring semester intern just got an awesome job at a great firm (for next summer), and I am so pumped that I was able to give her an excellent reference.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      Have you made a formal offer for another internship next summer? Getting something to her now would be a very tangible indication of how much you appreciated her contribution.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Hats off to wonderful interns! I’m sure you had a great impact on her experience as well.

      We had a student in our (university administration) office this summer who was just…amazing. I rarely see experienced professionals who are good at managing up, but she was a PRO at it, and she instantly won over our prickly EA (this is maybe even more impressive). I’m so eager to see where her career takes her.

    6. the gold digger*

      Thanks, everyone! I love your ideas and will absolutely do all of them! I feel very lucky that we had such a great experience with WonderfulIntern.

      I would love to have her back with me next summer, but I think she would be better served at another company so she can get another view of her career possibilities. She is an industrial engineering major and wants to go into biomed. My company designs material handling systems, which is not very glamorous or meaningful. :)

    7. Chaordic One*

      It’s nice to hear about smart and hardworking young people and interns. I’ve been missing a volunteer who worked with me at the library. She’s gone back to college for her senior year.

      A lot of young people get a bad rap.

  16. Detective Amy Santiago*

    How many AAM readers looked into their company’s emergency contact policies after yesterday’s post?

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        Ever since our parent company lost track of a couple people during Katrina we have annual drills and system tests.

      2. PatPat*

        I was in Irma’s path so I got to see our emergency policy in action. Management gave us clear directives and kept us updated as the storm hit so it worked great.

        We also ended up with seven days off for Irma to prepare for the hurricane and evacuate if we chose and to deal with the aftermath such as having no electricity or having no gas for our cars, and flooded or otherwise impassable roads.It was very thoughtful of them but now I’m going to be scrambling to get all my work done this month!

    2. Friday*

      I checked my emergency contacts AND gave my beloved cats some side-eye. Because my dark, twisted brain could not help but think of that story that popped up in an open thread recently about how the people figured out the neighbor died in part because the CAT WAS FATTER.

      2. Teapot Librarian*

        I read that comment after a therapy appointment yesterday where I literally made a comment about being worried that I would die alone and be eaten by my cats. That comment really freaked me out because of the timing!

        1. nonymous*

          I made that comment once during therapy years ago and the therapist interrupted me to launch into this whole thing about how I was expecting too much commitment from my acquaintances b/c they weren’t those kind of friends. My godsister (who lives alone) had just gone thru a situation where she fell down some stairs and had to call family to come help her up (broken tailbone), and I didn’t have that kind of support system in my new state yet. bleargh!

      4. Jadelyn*

        Is it weird of me that that doesn’t freak me out, so much as make me glad that if I were to die unexpectedly, at least my cat wouldn’t starve and die with me?

        Though I’m honestly not sure my baby would do that anyway. I just can’t picture it. My mom’s cat, on the other hand…I wouldn’t put it past him to take a bite out of me just for not feeding him on time when I’m cat-sitting, much less a situation like that.

        1. AwkwardKaterpillar*

          I’ve kind of always figured that too. Not like I’m going to care, and I wouldn’t want them to suffer!

        2. Specialk9*

          Lol my thought too. If I’m not using my meat anymore anyway, at least my beloved pets wouldn’t starve.

          (Also, blugh)

    4. Mockingjay*

      My company was really proactive. The Director sent out an email reminding everyone to update their contact info on the company website. We use a third party system that keeps info confidential except to managers (grandbosses) for notifications (telephone tree).

      I did, with their permission, collect personal cell numbers of all our team members for our supervisor, for quick internal communications. (Hurricanes and floods are annual events here.) He’s newly promoted and hasn’t had a chance to put together a lot of the admin info he needs to run things. He used the list to send a group text about when normal operations would resume. Much appreciated by all. (And all is well after Irma – we weren’t hit nearly as hard as some areas.)

    5. Jadelyn*

      Didn’t have to, lol – we literally are wrapping up an emergency contacts system update and about to send the data over to our business continuity planning committee. We had all employees fill out emergency contact forms even if they’d done it before (and good thing, too, because there were a not insignificant number who listed different people than before!) and have been entering the new contacts into our HRIS for the past couple weeks.

      1. PunkrockPM*

        My toxic employer (we are embedded in a teaching medical university) sent out an email that stated all employees MUST come into work or use PTO, despite the fact that the state was under a statewide emergency due to the hurricane.

        We are NOT mission critical.

        Thankfully, the people who handle emergency preparedness monitors communications came down hard and 20 minutes later employees were allowed to work from home.

        2. MsChanandlerBong*

          My husband’s employer used to do that. He worked at the CVS Caremark distribution center, packing boxes for $11 an hour. When the governor closed our roads due to a snow emergency, CVS gave him a letter saying he’s in the medical industry and needs to come to work. We’re SO glad he’s not there anymore.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Wow, that is amazing. Were the higher ups aware of what was going on? I know of a situation where the boss told people they were direct care and had to show up. The problem was that the recipients did NOT show up. This went on for a decade then TPTB got wind of it. But meanwhile people took their life in their hands getting to work in a Closed County because the boss said they had to.

  17. Yup yup*

    LinkedIn: how important is it in your field and/or geographic location?

    I recently took a position in small-ish town and several of my colleagues don’t even have one! Or they have one they set up in college with only a dozen contacts and an out of date title. Seems like many people in my industry don’t seem to place much emphasis on it unless they are in large cities.

    Just made me curious what other peoples’ experiences are with LinkedIn and if the relative importance is based on the industry or on the location.

    1. Snark*

      I’m an environmental consultant and former academic, and I can honestly say that I haven’t logged into LinkedIn in a year.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m a recruiter and it is hugely important.

      If you are job hunting, you should absolutely update your LinkedIn profile and update your settings to indicate you are open to new opportunities.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I was in marketing (have moved into a slightly different role) as a writer and editor, in the Chicago area. LinkedIn was fairly helpful in terms of visibility to recruiters and lead to some useful networking, one in particular that led to my new job. So yeah, it’s helped. But I am in a major metro area.

    4. Enough*

      I was just commenting on this topic to my husband. I’ve seen quite a few LinkedIn profiles that are extremely out of date. And I know people who don’t have one at all and wondered if there were certain professions that people were less likely to use the site.

    5. KR*

      In my company, where a lot of people work remotely and have offices nationwide, it’s pretty important to put a face to a name. I work in renewables and I’ve found it’s important as well because the industry is small but growing rapidly and you want to keep the contacts you make.

    6. Footiepjs*

      I honestly don’t know how significant it is in either my field or area. I don’t have an account with LinkedIn. I got my current position because I knew the person hiring. Prior to that I worked at a public library and I don’t think it factored at all there. But I am basically entry level and not further along on any career path.

    7. Coalea*

      I’m interested to hear the responses to this – and particularly interested to see if there are differences between those who are US-based vs those who are not. My company has offices in the US and UK and I have noticed that my American colleagues all have LinkedIn profiles, while most of the Brits do not (1 or 2 of the most senior folks do). Not sure if that is generalizable to the broader population, or just a quirk of my organization.

    8. Manager*

      I had not logged into LinkedIn for awhile. I logged in just recently and am surprised by how many non profession related posts are up. Now I see tons for political posts, cute cat pictures, etc. Is LinkedIn turning into a Facebook copycat?

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think it depends greatly on who you are following (your connections) and what they like, share, or promote. Mine is 90% obviously work-oriented and almost none of the remaining 10% is strictly non-work (cat pics, family news), more like tangents or opinion pieces based on work experiences.

    9. Floundering Mander*

      Very rarely used in my field (archaeology). Most people I know have a profile, but I have never seen a relevant job posting on it, nor has anyone ever recruited me or anybody I know through it. I suppose it might be a bit more useful if I were still in academia, but even then it’s not the tool of choice.

    10. Mockingjay*

      For me, probably both. I got Current Job through a recruiter on LinkedIn.

      My industry is finally expanding after the recession, and the geographical area is also growing with diverse businesses. I am in a medium sized southern city on the East Coast. Salaries are still lower than the average from 5 years ago, but are increasing.

      I see weekly postings for jobs in my field in my regular feed. I get direct notices about once a month for jobs from recruiters.

    11. ace*

      Law firm and I deal with lawyers all over the country and internationally, in-house/nonprofit/firm/solo practice. To me, it’s weird if you *don’t* have one as a lawyer. There’s not really a minimum of activity — some people are prolific article writers and promoters, some aren’t, but I’d expect (1) anyone under 50-60 currently working to have a LinkedIn account; (2) LI listing current position, past positions/companies, and schools.

    13. mooocow*

      In my field (Data Science / Software Development), LinkedIn and the German equivalent Xing are a frequent subject of self-absorbed lamenting (“Oh, it’s so annoying getting all those recruiter e-mails! Several a week, poor me!”), though I do think people also get jobs that way, not just ego tickles. In fact, one of those recruiter e-mails almost landed me a job once – it would have been an excellent fit content-wise, but not a good culture fit unfortunately.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I’m not really getting anything out of it but it’s still active. I go look at the job listings occasionally. I opened it up to recruiters too but nobody wants me. :P

    15. Ledgerman*

      I’m in public accountinng at a ‘Big 4’ firm in the US, and I would be shocked if any of my colleagues didn’t have a LinkedIN. It was definitely expected when going through recruiting, and I keep it mostly updated now – I get new requests every week, follow my newsfeed, etc.

    16. Super Secret Squirrel*

      In my former jobs in and around the Federal government, people either didn’t have LinkedIn accounts, or it was deeply terse. Some of it was due to security clearance issues, some because even if one doesn’t have a clearance one can still be targeted by foreign agents, and some because Feds don’t have to try amy more.

    17. Julianne*

      It’s not important at all for teachers – at least, not where I live – unless they’re looking specifically for charter school jobs or are aiming to move to more business-oriented positions outside of traditional public schools (education management, tech, consulting, etc.). I have heard multiple principals joke (?) that they don’t even know what LinkedIn is.

    18. David Z*

      I got my current job (US, SF Bay Area) without having a LinkedIn account, so clearly it’s not essential… but I think my company is a bit unusual in terms of how much they focus on technical skill to the exclusion of other things.

      Before this I used to be in academia, and almost nobody used LinkedIn. Only a minority of my colleagues there had LinkedIn accounts at all.

    19. An actuary*

      I am an actuary and have worked at large companies (5000 to 50,000 employees) in the insurance industry. LinkedIn is by no means necessary but is common and most people under say, 40 years old have it (as well as many people over 40 too of course, but not sure it’s “most”). In my field, recruiting firms tend to reach out via Linkedin, but it’s easy enough to get in contact with recruiters via email too (but you might have to initiate the conversation, rather than the recruiter). Beyond recruiters, it’s mostly a thing that everybody has but that isn’t used for much. Most people don’t message each other. I sometimes have messaged people and they haven’t answered because they don’t check it – same people are very quick to respond to direct emails.

      It’s commonly used but not considered weird to not have one or for it to be out of date.

  18. Emma*

    On Wednesday I had an interview with an institution I /really/ want to work for, and they said they’d make a decision some time over the next two weeks. Today I got a call from their HR telling they wanted to make me an offer.

    Should I be worried about this quick decision? (They did say they were only interviewing over two days so I know that parts concluded). I know their reputation and know they do good work, so I don’t know if it’s just my insecurities that’s telling me there’s no way I was the best candidate…

    (There are still reference checks etc. to be done, so I’m also a bundle of nerves waiting for that even though I don’t have any marks on my work history…)

    I don’t know, when I was applying for jobs I thought I’d be happy (and not so anxious!) once I get an offer, but maybe I’m just…preconditioned to be anxious and full of self doubt.

    Is this a form of imposter syndrome or an inferiority complex of some kind? All that wishing I’d be chosen and then when I do get chosen I can’t accept there was something else behind that decision…

    Anyone experience anything similar? I can’t really talk about it to people in RL because the most likely response is “stop worrying”…if only it was that simple!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you were the last interview, or if you were obviously head and shoulders above everyone else, I don’t think this is that strange. I’d just make sure you’ve done your due diligence on making sure this is a place you want to work; if you’ve been looking for red flags and haven’t seen any, I wouldn’t consider this one.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      For my current job, I had an interview in the morning and got the (verbal) offer at like 4:55PM that same day. And this is the best job I’ve ever had – I love it!

      Interview process: I had a phone interview with HR, phone interview with manager (other ppl had in-person but I was relocating), and then the in-person interview (which was 30 min with the manager, 30 min with grandboss, and 30 min with team).

    3. Kathenus*

      No red flags for me. When I’m hiring I generally give candidates a longer time range than I anticipate the process taking in case anything slows down the process, so that if anything the quicker pace is a positive change. I was once offered a job as I was driving to the airport after my interview, so it can happen! Congrats.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s super common for hiring managers to throw out the ‘decision in the next two weeks’ line when they’re unsure of the timeline. If they said 2 weeks and you got an offer 2 days later, the conclusion I’d draw is that both the director and the HR manager were in the office on Thursday.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This, 1000% – we pad the timelines to try to keep people from freaking out at delays, but if everyone happens to connect earlier than we expected, hell yeah we’re taking advantage of that to get a decision made and communicated to the candidate.

    5. DDJ*

      Like Alison said below, as long as you’ve done your homework on this company, take it as a positive! Really great candidates tend to get scooped up pretty quick – I just went through this and 3 of my top candidates for interviews had to turn us down because they’d already taken jobs elsewhere. And I’m talking ten days between application and the contact for the interview, so it’s not like we left them hanging for months. So if the company really liked you, they probably just don’t want to risk you accepting an offer elsewhere.

      Who knows, maybe it was down to you and one other candidate, and the other candidate contacted them to let them know they HAD taken a job elsewhere, so the company decided to take action as quickly as possible to make sure they don’t lose you as well.

      OR maybe the person who makes the hiring decision was going to be on vacation for a week so they didn’t want to give themselves too tight a deadline, but then that person made a quick decision so it condensed their time-frame.

      Maybe the company line is that you always tell candidates that it’s about a 2-week timeframe so that if something DOES come up, they don’t have applicants getting upset about not hearing anything further right away.

      All I’m saying is that there are a lot of non-sketchy reasons that a company might move really quickly on a job offer. I can tell you to TRY to stop worrying, but as a grade-A, bona fide worrier myself, I know that might be tough.

      1. KR*

        I got an offer call before I even got home from my interview (and it was fifteen minutes away from my house, so that’s really something) so to me, it just signals they really liked you and want to scoop you up before you get another offer!

    6. MsT13*

      The job I’m going to had a 3 day turn around between meeting/interview/offer. Sometimes they just feel confident in their decision!

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      My job: interviewed Wednesday, they had more interviews Thursday, said I’d hear Friday but they actually called me Thursday pm.

    8. Ama*

      We’re currently hiring because the person who we originally hired resigned after nine days (to take a position elsewhere) — and since we had lined up her start date so she’d be on board before a major event my department runs we’re in a hurry to try and get someone else in while there is still time to train them. I interviewed one person on Monday and am interviewing another this afternoon — and we’ll probably make an offer to one of them Monday morning.

      Actually something similar happened when I was hired here — it was early March, and they had a big event in mid-April. I submitted my resume on a Thursday, had a phone interview the next morning, an in person interview that Monday and was offered the job that Wednesday. It is by far the best place I have ever worked despite the rushed start.

    9. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      At my office, when we hire, we generally know who we want after the last interview and will either make a decision that day or first thing the next morning, and we will start calling references. If the references are readily available, then two days is perfectly normal.

      But please heed Alison’s advice about doing your own due diligence. So many people get too wrapped up in thinking a future employer is their “dream job” that they neglect to do some basic digging around. Hiring is always a two way street, and you need to be comfortable that your new employer is right for you.

    10. Jules the First*

      My current job had their recruiter contact me on a Thursday. I interviewed on Tuesday before work, had a second interview Wednesday evening, and a job offer in my voicemail by the time I finished my campus tour. I couldn’t be happier here…

  19. FormerBurnOut*

    It’s a beautiful day!
    ~3 months into my new job after leaving the old one w/major burnout and I finally am starting to feel like I’m getting back to “me”. Any advice from people that’ve been there?

    It was about a year and a half of burnout–not used to things lingering so long, but I think the no vacation thing really shot me in the foot. So many lessons learned….

    1. Luv the pets*

      Burnout and overwork can take a huge toll on a person mentally and physically. I have had it happen to me a couple of times in the span of my career- once early and once more recently. Continue to take care of yourself. We get tired of hearing “eat well, sleep, exercise” but it’s true that these are all key to feeling good. Practice good mental health hygiene too. You’ll continue to notice feeling better and better.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Lots of small acts of self care and self love: a nice bubble bath, a new book. Making lists of my strengths and successes. And just giving it lots of time.

    3. Bye Academia*

      I was burnt out for probably the last three years of my old job, and it’s taken me a year to start to feel back to normal again. It hasn’t helped that I’ve had a lot of personal stuff (sick pet, death in the family, planning my wedding) take up my energy. The new job, however, is amazing and I love it.

      My only advice is rest as much as you can and try not to feel guilty if you can’t give 100% to your new job or your life right now. And take a vacation!

  20. Is this wrong*

    I have an interview coming up but the location is so far away that I have no intention of taking it. I want to go on the interview just for the experience, and I guess for selfish reasons. Is it unethical to take this interview just to get the experience?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on whether “I have no intention of taking” means “I’m 100% certain I would never take this position” or something more like “I can’t see any way I’d take this position… there would have to be extraordinary circumstances for it to work out.” If it’s the former, don’t do it. You’d be wasting their time. If it’s the latter, go for it.

      If you need interview experience, just interview somewhere else.

    3. Shadow*

      If it’s a waste of everyone’s time then yes it’s unethical. would you agree to interview with a company that had no intentions of hiring you?

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I did this recently. But it was a big company that has hundreds of positions open and I knew that I was just one of dozens coming in to interview for this particular role. I hadn’t done an interview in 7 years and I knew I needed some practice. I wouldn’t do it for a director level position or for a small company that invests a lot in their interviews. I was more or less in a cattle call interview process.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I should add that I had convinced myself that there was a possibility that I could take the job, but I think I really knew that I wouldn’t. The company had a terrible reputation and the interview confirmed that perspective.

    6. Kathenus*

      Another factor to consider is that you may be causing another candidate to not be considered, if they have a certain number of finalists that they are interviewing. I’d suggest not doing it for this reason and those noted in other comments.

      1. DDJ*

        Agreed. I was only allowed to bring in a maximum of 4 people for interviews for the last position we had open. It gets pretty cutthroat when you have 100+ applicants and 4 interview spots.

    7. Anonymous Poster*

      I interviewed for a position I was fairly sure I wouldn’t take, but wasn’t yet at a firm ‘no’ on. I think that was okay (and the interview cemented in that I did not want to make a move to them).

      If you’re certain you won’t take it, then bow out. You can ask a friend to do a practice interview to brush up on your skills. Someone else might really want that job and you’re taking their chance from them to practice.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      Agree with the above. But also, what if you realise you want it? Then you’re screwed whatever decision you make. Bow out now and make your peace with it (and get practice another way).

    9. Jules the First*

      I toom an interview for my current job with no intention of taking the job because the commute was sooooo long…and I loved the people and the job so much, I took it. Try not to take the interview if you’re sure you don’t want the commute – it’s amazing what you can talk yourself into when you’re excited about a job…

  21. Green Buttons*

    I’m recognized as a high performer in my position and have been told since June that there’s a promotion in the works for me. I’ve followed up and my manager says that they’re just waiting on the approval process. I think I’ve been reasonably patient and proactive (i.e. doing courses, taking on additional work), but that’s run out.

    My current job is way below my qualifications (it’s a new role and they didn’t know what they needed) and I’m so bored and unmotivated. I ask for more responsibilities and am getting praised, but people also tell me not to kill myself over this at my current level.

    This has led to a decline in my mental health where I’m noticing symptoms of depression. I saw a therapist for this, but I’m wondering if I should tell my manager about my situation.

      1. Green Buttons*

        Actively searching for over a year, which is also why it’s starting to feel hopeless. I don’t want to settle for a new job that will put me back into this pattern because my former job was similarly toxic.

    2. not so super-visor*

      I’m not sure that I would tell your manager that waiting on a promotion is impacting you this much (unless I’m reading more into this). Depending on how your company does budgeting, they may have to wait until the next budget or the beginning of the year (been there!). I don’t think that it would hurt to check in on your boss as long as you weren’t overly pushy. You might say, “I’m really excited about that new opportunity that we talked about. Have their been any updates on the process?”

      1. DDJ*

        I agree, I think it’s very reasonable to ask about deadlines. I’m currently in the “You know that we’re in a tough position now, but we’ll take care of you, and you are highly valued here” situation. And because I know a lot about what’s going on with our business, I know they’re not just blowing smoke up my bum.

        In your case, I don’t think you’d be out of line to ask how long the approval process for something like this might normally take. Honestly though, 3 months is nothing. An approval like this, especially if a new position is being created, takes a lot of time.

        1. Green Buttons*

          I’ve followed up on timelines and logically I know that things take time.

          I guess I’m asking about the illogical side of things – how to manage my depression. I’ve been in my role for 3 years and it’s been a long time of more responsibilities (which I like) and under-utilizing my skills. So I think I’m just at a point where I’m spiraling downwards despite logic.

          1. DDJ*

            I misunderstood! I apologize.

            Managing depression can be so tough. If it’s strictly situational, then it might be a case of “fake it ’til you make it” and hope that the promotion comes quickly. Since you’ve started therapy, hopefully your therapist will have some useful advice/techniques for you to use as well.

            I would advise against talking to your manager about it. I suffer from both anxiety and depression and made the mistake of talking about my anxiety with my boss (gotta love the free wine at the company Christmas party). She was gracious about it, but it definitely changed the dynamic between us. Permanently. And not in horrible ways, but I do wish I hadn’t said anything.

            “but people also tell me not to kill myself over this at my current level.”

            This is what really stood out for me when I went back and read your post again. People are going to have opinions about your work/your job, but…they’re not necessarily valid OR useful. You can care and work hard and go above and beyond and take on extra things if that’s what’s going to help you through the transition. People minimizing your work (or work ethic) is sucky of them.

    3. BRR*

      I wouldn’t disclose that your job is causing depression. I would ask about a concrete timeline and if you get a response that they’re working on it I would say how you’re concerned about the timeline.

  22. KL*

    Hi everyone. I’m trying to figure out how to thank a coworker for doing something awesome and I’m not sure what to do.
    One of my coworkers is from Pakistan. A couple of weeks ago, we were talking in one of our office hallways and I noticed that she had beautiful henna pattern on her hands. I asked her if I could see it and she let me. She told me about she wedding she had been to and offered to do my hands one day. Fast forward to yesterday, she surprises me and tells me to go wash my hands really well, because she has the henna and is able to do my hands. I think it took about 30-45 minutes and now I have a gorgeous pattern on both of my hands. I offered to pay her, but she wouldn’t take it. I’m thinking about bringing her some brownies or something like that to thank her. She’s working in a different office today, but will be here on Monday. I should add that neither of us report to each other or have the same direct boss. Would brownies or something like that be ok? I also make an awesome lemon blueberry bread.

    4. Nervous Accountant*

      Just don’t offer her a ham or bottle of wine :-D

      Jokes aside, if you know she’s strict about her food and eats halal only, desserts are usually OK as long as there’s no alcohol (like in tiramisu I think?) and lard or gelatin since they are pork/animal byproducts. She may very well eat these things and drink alcohol but it’s safe to assume (and not offensive) that most Muslim/Pakistanis refrain from these two items. Otherwise, it really depends on her as an individual. I know many Pakistanis who drink alcohol but don’t eat pork/pork products, so it’s safe to avoid these 2 things.

      1. KL*

        To my knowledge, she isn’t strict halal – I’ve seen her eat our office get-togethers. I didn’t pay attention to what was on her plate, but we normally try to avoid the more common food restrictions or have options for people who don’t eat certain foods when ordering for our office.

        But yes, I was definitely planning on avoiding pork and alcohol. :)

        1. Specialk9*

          My social set has started putting all ingredients on a little card, for potlucks. It’s really helpful with food restrictions – it can feel too-too precious to ask, but you kinda need to know.

  23. Murphy*

    Good work story to share!

    A squeaky wheel at my organization insisted that a meeting be scheduled at a particular time. (Necessary and important meeting with many busy people, but it got scheduled with 2 days notice without actually checking anyone’s schedules.) This put me in 5 straight hours of meetings which, as a nursing mother who needs to pump, put me in a pretty difficult spot. I wasn’t sure what to do, but I went to my boss and let him know. I felt pretty awkward about it, but he just said, “OK, what do you need?” I only needed to be at a portion of one of those meetings, and he worked with the meeting organizers and the invited speaker to make the portion I needed to be at first on the agenda, so I could duck out for part of the meeting and do what I needed to do. It was great! I was grateful for his help, and that it was handled without question or much awkwardness.

    1. Rincat*

      That’s great! As a (former) fellow nursing mom, I totally feel ya on needing to pump. At my old workplace, I had a long, 4-hour afternoon meeting one day and my manager only begrudgingly “let” me leave to go pump (I mean, I would have just left to pump without his permission – no way in hell I’m putting my milk supply at stake for a meeting). Glad to hear of a manager that is supportive of a nursing mom!

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, I lost my milk supply from trying to stretch my schedule to fit meetings. I ended up taking something liked 10 supplement pills a day trying to get it back up, to no avail.

    2. Friday*

      When you have to go, you have to go! This’ll be me again in a few months and I never apologize; I just go when I need to. At this job I’m especially going to be beholden to our pumping room schedule as I’m one of three pregs that I know of right now.

    3. Can I fire someone after Harvey?*

      That’s awesome! Glad to hear there are people out there who aren’t jerks to pumping moms. :)

  24. Howdy*

    Is it typical that recruiters speak to references early on in the process? It might be my own apprehension in working with the recruiter or shyness in asking people to be a reference, but I just feel (probably stupidly) resistant to having a recruiter talk to them when I’ve barely started the process talking to the recruiter myself. I also don’t know if I want to give her my “best” references- those with fancy titles that worked with me recently and can glowingly discuss in depth big projects I’ve done- because I don’t want to ask them to be a reference for me too often and I don’t want to waste those chances on this. I guess I don’t know if the recruiter will lead to much as I’m an average employee with a couple years of experience, a degree but not in anything very impressive, in a smaller market in a desirable area. Then again as I say that, I don’t know why I think my own job searching would necessarily yield much better.

  25. Junior Dev*

    Does anyone have advice for getting a written list of what my boss expects of me? Specifically, what to get approval for and in what ways? Or am I going about this wrong?

    I got a written warning a few weeks ago for a whole grab-bag of things, including supposedly not testing code enough before submitting for review. Now my boss is telling me to make changes to the production database without getting anyone’s approval for them or recording them anywhere. When I asked him to clarify he said “those were code changes. This is a data change. Huge difference.” In a tone that indicated it was a dumb question.

    I do not intend to make any changes to the production database until I have more clarity. I am sure if something goes wrong in our legacy system after I change something I will be blamed for it. I want to ask for a written list of what kind of approval and documentation different kinds of changes need. Because right now it feels like the rule is “read boss’s mind, and also predict the future to see if anything will go wrong as a result of a change.”

    Does anyone have advice for navigating this?

    1. Rincat*

      Oof, that’s tough. And you are right to be wary about changing anything in a production database! I can’t believe he’s treating that like it’s no big deal. Data changes can have HUGE impacts!

      I think it would be good to come up with a process that you can deliver to your boss and ask him to sign off on. You may not know the exact approval people or other variables, but you can put together a generic process for coding and/or data changes, and then fill in those variables later when you learn who the data owners/consumers are. I think if you present a finished product to him, it will make it easier to sign off on rather than just asking questions. I hope that helps!

    2. fposte*

      I can’t speak to dev stuff specifically, but in my field “make me a list” would be a big request and I wouldn’t make the request, nor, as a manager, would I make such a list.

      What I think you might be able to do is ask for a meeting with your manager and come armed with your own set of tasks (not exhaustive–no more than ten, I’d say) that you regularly encounter, and then get your manager’s take on the requisite approval level for each. Follow that up with an email with the list and approval levels to confirm.

      More broadly, it sounds to me like you’re trying to find ways to insulate yourself from ever making a mistake. That’s not something you can ever do. You can get some guidance on conventions, but that’s pretty much it.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        My manager has made such a list when asked, but it was more conceptual – examples of the kinds of situations she did or didn’t want to be looped in on to help me get a good overview, rather than an exhaustive list.

      2. Junior Dev*

        I don’t want to insulate myself from everyor making a mistake. I do want to insulate myself from being formally disciplined for the sort of mistakes that are inevitable on my line of work, as I was several weeks ago.

        1. fposte*

          And that I totally get. It’s just that you’re not likely to be able to insulate yourself against all of them, especially if your manager is capricious.

    3. h.cowl*

      Is there someone you trust you can ask about what he’s telling you to do? Making undocumented changes to a prod database sounds literally insane to me.

      1. h.cowl*

        Like, I know this is paranoid, but that kind of request would make me worry he was setting you up to fire you. That’s how crazy that is, especially after the kind of feedback you just got from him.

        2. Junior Dev*

          I can see how it looks like that. It’s possible. I honestly think, though, that they just haven’t thought a lot of things through, their culture is such that doing more than the bare minimum to solve a given problem (including planning and discussing what to do next time the problem occurs) is seen as a waste of time and money. Even when it’s obviously contributing to further problems in the near future that will take much longer to fix.

          And yes, I need to get a different job. I was hoping I could do some volunteering and work on my personal projects for a while first, and try to make it to a year at this job, but I am not sure if trying to clarify what exactly they want me to do will get me labeled a problem and forced out.

        3. Specialk9*

          Instead of getting a list (which other people in your field seem to be questioning, and I’m not in your field), how about written documentation of boss’ requests. “Wakeen, from our meeting today I captured that you would like me to do X, Y, and Z. Corrections welcome. Otherwise, I will begin on task X this afternoon.
          -Fergus”

          I print all CYA or important emails to PDF and save in the proper file, and for business/backup purposes keep a copy of key folders on a thumb drive. Useful in the case in case of wrongful termination.

    4. PunkrockPM*

      DO NOT DO THIS (but you already knew that). I don’t know what the data is or why the change, but this sounds sketchy.

      What do your companies change control processes state? SOPs etc? Who owns the database / data and why are they asking for a change? Asking for clarification and where you can find the written processes so that you can become familiar with how it’s done is perfect. If they aren’t written down, perfect opportunity to implement some.

      Otherwise it sounds like you are working for a boss who just wants you to do what the boss says to do. I’d acknowledge the request, gather more information as to why they are asking for the change, and inform the boss that you’d be reaching out to the owner of the data / database to obtain written permission to make the change so that both your butts are covered.

    5. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      You can ask for a documented Change Management process for both code and data changes. For this particular change, you can say something to the effect of “Please provide your request in writing, acknowledging this is a data change of XYZ nature to the production database”. Just to CYA, in case there is no formal Change Management process. If there isn’t a process or Standard Operating Procedures in place for Change Management, you can ask if a small team/task force can be set up to come up with basic protocols and volunteer to be on the team to provide input (or spearhead). Best of luck, it’s not a good feeling to be told to make a production change of any nature without following a process/procedure.

      2. Junior Dev*

        There’s no change procedure. Every time someone talks about instituting procedures we tend to get shot down with “there’s no time for that.”

        I’ll ask to get the fact that I should make the specific changes in question in writing somehow.

    6. Junior Dev*

      Thanks for everyone who commented. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks this is weird.

      How do you get clarity on things without coming off as combative/hostile? I wrote up an email asking about review procedures for a bunch of different scenarios, and in going to try and shorten it some to increase the chance I’ll get a real answer, but I’m worried it’ll be a while before I see a response and…there’s a lot of portions of my job I can’t really do until this stuff is clear.

      Also, a lot of people in the company have authority to make production database updates–i’m talking stuff like changing product descriptions or copy on web pages. Most of the input forms have no validation (which is part of why this is a provlem, people put in bad data).

      I don’t know if this is salvagable. If I do the thing they want I could make a mistake and get tin trouble. If I don’t do it I am not doing my job.
      I honestly think they don’t know how to discipline people and just threw in a bunch of random stuff to my written warning, but at this point it’s the most specific thing I have to go on.

    7. ArtK*

      Urgh. Your boss is being a fool. Make sure that you have this documented. “Just to be clear, boss, you want me to make changes X, Y and Z to the production database. Please confirm.”

    8. Ruh Roh, Raggy!*

      I’ve worked at a few places where code quality expectations were high, but data changes frequently needed to happen right now, even if, yes, a data change is risky.

      If your boss explicitly tells you to do something and it’s not unethical, I think you need to do it. Feel free to CYA with an email – “As you requested, I made this manual change to the production database.”

      I worked at a place where, when manual changes are necessary, they need to be reviewed by a second developer. I think that’s a reasonable compromise in cases where there is no change management system in place, and something needs to happen Right Now. I did annoy some people by calling them at 3am after I’d been called by Tier 1, but I was a stickler for it. It’s way too easy to forget the where clause, especially at 3am.

      Ultimately, the solution is to create tools that allow you to safely update a single value for certain frequently-trod cases. As a junior developer, I don’t know how much power you have to push for such tools.

  26. Pottery Smarm*

    Does anyone have advice or just commiseration working for a company whose main business/labor force is made up of lower skilled workers and, as a result, the entire company tends to get stuck in a cycle of underpaying employees who in turn underperform or leave at almost all levels? At The Worst Job I’ve Ever Had, I was part of an operations team in a call center, for which we reported to the corporate office but were expected to direct people at the call center level over whom we had no authority. The whole place was dysfunctional; nearly everyone in a leadership position had never managed before and this was perpetuated by having poor examples that thrived on favoritism and “technically not against the rules” scummy tactics to reach goals (a milder version of Wells Fargo shenanigans).
    Ultimately, it felt like benefits and pay were so poor because the majority of the workforce was the customer service reps that corporate obviously considered beneath them and just lucky to get a job. In turn, attrition was terrible, attendance was worse, and the people that stayed were mostly otherwise unemployable or in such dire situations they were stuck. This didn’t leave a great candidate pool from which people were promoted and most people at higher levels were still people who were either underequipped or uninterested in doing their job well, which led to more frustration and attrition from those that cared and this underperformance and attrition was ultimately corporate’s justification for not paying well.
    I was really glad to get out of there all those years ago, but now I’m a little concerned I’ve stepped into a similar situation. I’m working at a corporate office that oversees, for example, the local warehouse HR offices and there’s just constant frustration here of them doing the same stupid mistakes over and over again which ultimately cause us more work to resolve. We don’t really have authority over these offices and thus far it’s unclear to me whether this stuff is caused by apathy or ineptitude or what. For what it’s worth, training to resolve these issues is pretty robust and consistently available.
    I don’t know. I worry this is going to be a repeat of that previous job- constant frustration and it’s going to slowly eat at me more and more until I’m bitter and angry all the time. Is it possible to not go down that road? Any coping tactics? Is this sort of thing fixable? Should I jump ship?

    1. Shadow*

      You can’t expect good candidates without good pay/benefits/culture/etc. They’ve obviously made the choice that they will live with low performers in exchange for lower salary costs

    2. Bad Candidate*

      My husband works at the corporate level for a regional retailer and I would say that yes, this seems to be the case with his company. I don’t have any suggestions, he just goes with the flow I guess.

    3. KR*

      We ha day similar situation and it really took me telling my boss, ” Listen, we’re paying these people a starting wage that’s less money than they could make working at McDonalds but we’re expecting a lot of technical skills, attention to detail, and nuanced decision making skills. With what we are paying them, it’s just not worth it to them to work here or really try hard to succeed here. We need to pay more for a starting wage. ” I think that type of comparison really worked for him, and it also helped that we did a salary survey with indicated further how much we were all underpaid (for example, I got a 60% raise because my boss didn’t believe me on how much he had been underpaying me until we did the survey -_-).

        1. KR*

          I went from 14/hr to 22ish/hr and our techs went from starting at 8/hr to 10/hr (with proportional $2/hr raises for those who were already there) I wanted more for the technicians and I wanted to bump up the already awesome technicians based on merit but I lost that battle :/

          1. Ann O.*

            That’s a great story of results, but what baffles me is why they were paying so low to begin with when they clearly had the ability to pay more. And then they were surprised they were having problems with their workforce!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I can’t tell from here what is the best way to suggest.
      You have written mostly about your previous job. This current job has an HR problem. Does it have any other problems that remind you of Old Job?
      How is your boss, do you trust this person? If we can’t trust the boss that is a huge issue.
      What would be a good plan to help you with that anger? Anger is probably justified given what you have been through at the previous job. Have you thought about counseling? If that is out of reach, how is your self-care? The excess energy from anger can be lessened by taking walks on a regular basis. Walks chew up some of the energy and give our minds time to think and sort things out. It sounds too simplistic to work, but the key is to walk regularly because the effect is cumulative. I had a cohort who ran 5 miles every night. yeah, it was a tough job.

      From what you have here, I can’t really tell if you should jump ship. I can say, that if they are making you do things you know to be illegal and/or could cause injury others just get out. Leave. No job is worth going to jail for.

      People are similar to animals. You know the saying, “never corner a wild animal”? People don’t do well when cornered either. They start snarling and clawing, it’s not pretty. To take your self out of the corner you will need to consider options. Now I am really walking in the dark. I have no idea, can you look for work elsewhere? Can you go back to school? Can you move?
      It’s so easy to list off all the things we can’t do. Take the time to figure out what you CAN do. Start out small. Can you take a walk at lunch? Can you take your phone outside and look on the net for jobs over lunch? And keep building bigger things that you CAN do.
      Some of the angriest people I know are the ones who feel they have no options left. That is an illusion most times, we do have options and people are willing to help.

  27. Demoted&Deflated*

    I just started a new position in a city I relocated to for my partner’s work. I’m now part of a small department similar to the one I used to manage at my previous company. My boss is very hands off and the other guy on the team, “Winston”, has been “managing me”. It’s been difficult because I used to run a similar department but I feel like a complete noob. It’s a lower title than I had before and I’ve been doing this job for about ten years. Winston is constantly telling me he wants me to “own” different tasks, but gets frustrated when I don’t do them the way he would have done them. I was also told that I would be doing a lot of work on X and some work on Y, but it has been all Y and no X. I am pursuing a professional designation in X and working in the field is essential to obtaining the designation. Any advice on how to approach Winston and how to talk to my manager about the job duties?

    1. Temperance*

      Is Winston actually your manager, or is he doing that thing where he’s trying to usurp you by assigning work and bossing you around? Also, is he getting annoyed that you aren’t doing things his way, or that they’re actually wrong? I think that’s key to determining the approach.

      I would bring it up with your boss during your next one-on-one that you’d like to do more X work.

  28. zapateria la bailarina*

    My coworker, Anna, has 3 direct-reports: Sarah, Jane, and Beatrice. Sarah and Jane have worked at this company for over 10 years each, and Beatrice was hired at the beginning of this year. Beatrice is also Anna’s cousin. Anna’s boss is my boss’s boss. Full disclosure: Jane and I are pretty close at work; we do not hang out outside of work, but we are friendly on a personal level, not just as coworkers.
    Anna is still pretty new to managing; she has been in her position about a year and a half. Before she became Jane’s manager, the three of us used to take breaks together twice a day. This did not stop once she became Jane’s manager. When Beatrice was hired, she was invited to come to breaks with us as well. Sarah has never come to breaks with us; her breaks are on a different schedule to ensure phone coverage. Throughout the past several months, Anna has continually used our breaks as a venting session, where she complains about Sarah’s mistakes. I find it deeply unprofessional that she is complaining about her report’s professional mistakes to her other two reports. If Jane misses break for whatever reason, Anna will take the opportunity to complain about her as well. Anna also gives Beatrice special treatment. For example, if Sarah or Jane make a mistake, Anna will yell at them at their cubicle, which the entire office can hear. If Beatrice makes a mistake, Anna quietly explains to her what the mistake was and how to fix it in the future. Additionally, we did an office desk reorganization last week, and Beatrice got the largest cubicle available, which also has a window, despite the fact that Jane has over 9 years of seniority over her. When Jane brought this up to Anna, she refused to make a change to the assignments.
    As an outside-the-team observer, all of this bothers me, but I don’t know if I have any standing to address it. The biggest issue I have is that it is incredibly inappropriate to discuss one report’s shortcomings with the other two reports – it is none of their business. Sarah has also commented to me a few times about feeling left out because the rest of her team is able to go on breaks and get lunch together, and she is always the odd one out. The special treatment of Anna’s cousin is also concerning, but I’m not sure how to bring it up without sounding like I’m pettily complaining about my friend not getting a window desk. If you saw this situation in your workplace, what would you do? Would you do anything at all?

    1. Snark*

      How is your relationship with Anna? Because if you’re at the same hierarchy level and have more management experience, and her relationship with you is good, I think you could take her aside and offer your thoughts on how showing favoritism and shaming employees isn’t likely to be a productive strategy in the long run.

      1. zapateria la bailarina*

        We have an okay relationship… Though less so in recent weeks as I’ve been distancing myself due to this behavior.
        We’re not actually on the same hierarchy level. I do not manage anyone in my current role, though I do have management training and more experience than she does.

        1. Snark*

          Hmm. Hard to say what to do. “Your management style is bad and you should feel bad” is something that, even if true, is a hard, bitter pill to swallow, even if delivered as gently as possible. But…she’s an aggressively bad manager and she’s doing things that will alienate everyone working under her if that hasn’t already happened. If you think she’s got terrible instincts but fundamentally wants to be a good manager, it might be worth it, but if you think she’d get defensive and add you to her fecal roster, maybe let that sleeping dog lie and let her learn from natural consequences.

          1. zapateria la bailarina*

            Unfortunately I think it is the latter… She didn’t want the management position in the first place and has not really been given any training (her boss is extremely hands off)
            Thanks for your input!

          2. Future Analyst*

            Agreed on all the above- I doubt anyone will be better off if you say something, because Anna will not change, and Jane and Sarah may actually end up getting treated worse. Also, “fecal roster” is an excellent term.

        2. Specialk9*

          Can you say something to Anna’s boss? I don’t think talking to Anna directly is going to work because you’re a peer, and because she doesn’t sound reasonable. These are not well intentioned but newbie mistakes, they’re systematic mean girl behavior: exclusion, bitter complaining behind backs, favoritism, loud public chewing out.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I am surprised they let her manage her cousin, honestly. That is a bad idea for the same reasons managing a romantic partner is.

      1. zapateria la bailarina*

        Me too! I believe the company has a rule about not managing immediate family members, but I think any family members and even friends should probably be included. This manager in particular asked her cousin and her best friend to apply for the job when it came up – bad judgment all around!

    3. Kathenus*

      Whether or not you choose to address the problems directly, I’d suggest you stop taking breaks with her because this can be seen as agreeing with/validating the venting behavior. You could also say this if she begins discussing a direct report during one of these breaks – “Anna, I’m not comfortable with your discussing employee’s performance with me”, or if you’re not comfortable with that “Anna, let’s make the breaks a work-free zone so we can disconnect for a few minutes”.

      1. zapateria la bailarina*

        Yes, I’ve recently stopped taking breaks with the group. I just can’t take it anymore, even aside from the other issues involved, it’s too much negativity when all she does is complain during every single break.

    4. Samiratou*

      My immediate thought is it encourage Sarah & Jane to find new jobs, but maybe start offering to take breaks or get coffee with Sarah, at least? You might have the opportunity to provide a bit of guidance and maybe shore up her confidence a bit. Jane, too, if the opportunity arises, but since she already takes breaks with Anna, that might be trickier, logistically.

      Is Anna’s boss likely to take any feedback to her, despite being “hands off”? If so, that’s a route you might go, but if she would just blow it off and continue the status quo, and Anna is unlikely to change anything, I don’t think there’s much you can say that won’t be received badly and possibly make it worse for Sarah & Jane. As noted above, Anna is an aggressively bad manager and should be demoted, but there you are.

      1. zapateria la bailarina*

        Great idea to take breaks or get lunch with Sarah. I think I will do that sometimes! I don’t think Sarah will ever look for another job, she’s been working with one of the three companies in this buildings for 25 years. I think she’d be more likely to retire. Jane has looked for other work but hasn’t gotten any bites yet.

        I’ve considered speaking to Anna’s boss but I’m honestly not sure how it will be received or how to broach the subject without seeming like I’m overstepping.

    5. Anion*

      Speak to your boss about it, maybe? Perhaps she can offer some thoughts, or will mention it to Anna’s boss. This kind of favoritism/nepotism is serious and likely to be noticed by others; it’s something higher-ups should be informed about, IMO (and that’s not even getting into how unprofessional it is to discuss a direct report’s work performance with other reports, which is also a pretty big deal afaik).

  29. Wing Commander Floofengarten*

    Back at work! My company offered the corporate jet to anyone who wanted to get out of South Florida last week. I couldn’t go, but they let me & my family stay in a company house/mansion (with storm shutters!) during the storm.

  30. SaraV*

    A qualification I saw listed yesterday for an open Accounts Payable/Receivable position.

    “Daily focus should be on vendor invoices, not personal issues.”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Seriously – that is super passive-aggressive. Even if there was a legit issue, putting it out there like that is a huge red flag.

      1. Samiratou*

        That was my first thought, too, but do AR/P generally handle payroll or other personnel-related payments?

        1. Elizabeth West*

          In a small company, yes. OldExJob only had one person handing all that after my immediate supervisor left–her assistant moved into that role. She eventually left because they refused to hire her any help; they just put those extra tasks onto me.

          Then we got bought out by a huge multinational company and most of the big stuff went to corporate, but they STILL didn’t hire an assistant for my new supervisor! He had to get a temp in to handle this very big project, because I was still on the front desk. The temp and I became friends and we’re still in touch periodically (she was frigging awesome).

  31. The Awkwardest of Turtles*

    My boss’s boss and I go to the same gym, and we both happen to go around the same time. She is not shy at all so this means that I see her in her birthday suit on a regular basis (and probably that’s she’s seen plenty of me as well).

    We’ve only met a few times and I’m not sure she’d recognize me out of context, but we’ll both be in a meeting together next week so it will be interesting to see if she recognizes me. I sort of hope not because then I might feel like I need to say hello when I see her in the locker room.

    Advice not needed but welcome. I really just wanted to share with this group as it seems like something y’all would appreciate.

      1. Piglet*

        I was in the military and this happened all of the time at the gym and other ways that different ranks get thrown together in different situations. *shrug* kinda awkward if you’re not used to it but I guarantee if she had a problem with running into people she knew then she would be more modest.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Yeah, but the military is pretty distinctly not anything like any other workplace. It’s got its own thing going on.

        2. The Awkwardest of Turtles*

          At this point I’m used to it. The grandboss definitely does not care – she does her thing at her own pace and is always chatting with one of her friends while they are both nude. Just at first it was like “ahh, that’s grandboss, ahhh that’s her boobs look away look away!” After months of seeing her I’m pretty unphased now.

      2. The Awkwardest of Turtles*

        We both work at a university so it’s one of the university gyms. Cheapest/closest/most convenient option for me. I’ve always had a hard time getting in a good gym routine so it’s not worth potentially messing with that (I’d been going a few months when I started seeing her).

      1. The Awkwardest of Turtles*

        I don’t think she knows who I am. She manages a number of departments and I’m just below the level of the people she would feel obligated to acknowledge. I held the door for her once and she smiled and said thank you but I couldn’t tell if it was “I know you” thank you or just a regular polite person thank you.

      2. Paul*

        There’s a lot of folks that view gym as work time, not social time. When I used to work out at a box gym, I kept my earbuds in throughout. I was there to pick up heavy stuff, and do some HIIT.

    3. zapateria la bailarina*

      Ha, that sounds so awkward. No advice, unfortunately. Not sure what I would do in this situation.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I would be prepared to say hi and then have a comment ready if she says something about the gym, like “oh I’m so glad they added more treadmills” or…something. Otherwise, just be polite and don’t mention the gym at all. Let her be your guide in this situation. And do the converse if she says something to you at the gym about the office.

      1. Not My Usual Name*

        I wanted to post about something similar today, and wasn’t sure if it fell into the Friday or Sunday thread.

        After my termination from a previous job, I have put it all behind me, found a new position with a great company and everything is fine. I went to the gym on a different night from usual and was sure one of the people in my aerobics class was a director from my previous job. Now, I didn’t acknowledge her, and she didn’t acknowledge me, but I wondered if it was her. People do look different when you see them out of context (in lycra as opposed to pinstripes) Hopefully our paths will not cross in the changing room!

        1. The Awkwardest of Turtles*

          I think I’d definitely go the ultra-ignore route if I ran into someone like that. Actually another person at my gym is a woman who works in a department I temped in when I was just starting out at this university. When I was a temp she yelled at me for doing a task incorrectly (because it was explained VERY poorly to me) and it made me cry during my first week (first FT gig out of college). She gets the ultra-ignore treatment from me. The disadvantages of working out where you work!

    5. Ama*

      This never happened with a coworker, but when I was taking regular dance classes I ran into classmates in other contexts a couple of times and I apparently look very different when I don’t have my hair back in the severe bun I used for class. I’m also not super great with faces so I usually waited until they either said “hey do you go to X studio?” or actually said “hi,” and then I’d figure that’s where I knew them from (as it was about the only place I would have acquaintances like that).

      The weirdest one was when someone I took dance classes with for quite a while turned out to be one of the bridesmaids in a good friend’s wedding (I was closer friends with the groom). We still see each other at their parties on occasion.

    7. Specialk9*

      The only approach is to don a careful mental suit of armor that this is all normal, not weird at all. If she chats with friends naked, she likely already has this attitude. If you act all weird and nervous, she may well just think you’re creepy or guilty of something, because naked gym won’t even occur to her. So instead, mental suit of armor that this is all normal.

      On a fitness message board once, someone posted that she is a kindergarten teacher, and just before the school year started, she was naked in the gym locker room when a mom of her new student recognized her and BROUGHT HER 5 YEAR OLD BOY over to meet his NAKED TEACHER!!

      So, you know, your situation could be so much worse.

  32. Snark*

    Just a little professional happy dance: I got to do a couple days of field work this week (which is such a nice change of pace) doing weed surveys, and it looks like I’ll be able to take a tour of the NORAD complex in Cheyenne Mountain (which makes my ’80s action movie-watching 12 year old self run in circles giggling).

    3. Floundering Mander*

      Oooh, jealous! When I was a kid they still did public tours (and my Dad worked there, which might have helped) so I’ve been there, but you aren’t allowed to go there anymore as a civilian as far as I know. It’s pretty neat inside.

  33. Rat Racer*

    My boss’s boss scheduled an off-site for October 31-November 1. Just came here to rant about this. I have two little kids, and while travel is an accepted part of my job, missing Halloween for a 2-day meet/greet/FYI meeting is just awful. Anyone have any graceful language for ducking out of this kind of thing? (and seriously, WTF, who does this? Does this guy hate working parents or something??)

    1. Sunflower*

      I think it’s pretty rude to schedule something like this without checking with someone first, regardless of the dates or employee situation. I think you’re totally in line to say ‘This was scheduled with my knowledge and I’m not available on those days. Can we reschedule?’

      2. Rat Racer*

        Ach, if only. This is boss’s boss, the Senior VP of Everything Under the Sun. There are like 200 people who will have to miss Halloween to go to this thing. I doubt they’d reschedule on my behalf.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Or else all the lower level employees go and then it’s announced that the SVPs and CEO didn’t come because they had to be with their children for Halloween.

    3. Friday*

      Check your employee handbook – often times school things are protected things that parents can duck out for, and that totally includes the cheesy costume parade most elementary and preschools put on.

    4. Mongoose*

      Notify your boss asasp and let them know you have a conflict, no need to mention specifics. I’d also check to make sure you’re essential to this trip. Here’s a line I just recently used:
      I have a conflict and won’t be able to attend as scheduled. If I need to attend, please let me know if [new date range] is possible.
      For what it’s worth, not everyone has Halloween on their radars–even some parents (like me! Whoops). Probably just an oversight, not a specific dig against working parents.

      1. Bobbin Ufgood*

        Yeah — I’m a working parent of littles who often has to provide night/weekend coverage and I’ve never specifically protected Halloween — if I were a boss scheduling a meeting *even though I have my own small children* this wouldn’t even occur to me — I think taking it as an insult to working parents is a bit of a stretch

      2. Paul*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t bat an eye at missing Halloween myself, despite enjoying it.

        The bigger issue to me is a two day off site, travel required (I’m assuming, since it means missing Halloween) meeting just for a meet n greet. Ew.

    5. XK*

      Why not just ask? The timing isn’t rude or hateful, it is just inconvenient for you. Just ask, explain you had plans, and see what they say!

      1. Rat Racer*

        This is a difficult knot that I stumble upon often as a working mother whose boss is also a working mother. We have both made difficult decisions trying to balance career and family life. We have made sacrifices on both sides.

        I am always concerned that saying “sorry, I can’t do this because family” signals a lack of commitment – ironically, more so than if my boss were a man; even a man with young children. I think this is because my boss has had to make the exact same sacrifices and faced the exact same trade-offs between her career and family, and probably gave up more than I am willing to give to climb as high as she’s climbed. I worry that prioritizing family over career – even in stupid instances like this one where my presence is totally arbitrary – will signal a lack of engagement on my part and also potentially make her feel guilty about her own choices.

        Human beings are weird – we often misplace our emotions: we’re mad about one thing but yell at someone else; we feel guilty about X and that causes us to lash out about Y. I’m not making this up or hypothesizing — I’ve seen it happen to colleagues and it’s happened to me. My current boss is a very kind person; she will probably understand. All the same, I feel like there are only so many times that I can opt out of things because of child commitments before I get painted as someone whose career ambitions are on hold. And they’re not.

        1. OtterB*

          I think you have to pick your battles. Even a stay-at-home parent can’t make every single kid thing once there’s more than one kid. Which ones really matter to your kids or to you, and which ones are less important and you only feel like you should go because other parents do? Likewise, some work events matter more than others. Do the best you can to run the slalom course and then give yourself permission not to feel guilty for being unable to be multiple places at once. And for having different priorities from your boss.

        2. Ann Furthermore*

          I know exactly how you feel. I have an 8 year old daughter, and my job does require some travel. But there are some times that are non-negotiable for me, and Halloween is one of them. We are huge Halloween nerds, and have a blast every year decorating our house, inside and out, buy something ridiculous for the yard every year (a couple years ago it was a 13 foot high inflatable StayPuft Marshmallow Man) and we are famous in our neighborhood for handing out full-sized candy bars. We live in a very family-friendly neighborhood, so lots of people from outside the area bring their kids in to trick-or-treat (which I have no problem with — you want your kids to be safe and have fun on Halloween, so I say the more the merrier). If someone tried to spring travel on me that would cause me to miss that, I would put my foot down and refuse.

          I’ve been in my job now for almost a year, after nearly 12 at my last company. One of the things that made me leave was unpredictable travel, and how hard that was on my family. Some people are willing to put their jobs first, and for a long time, I did that to some extent. Then I realized it was very hard on my family, and at one point, it was causing some behavioral issues with my daughter. When I took this job I promised myself I would try to do better at managing the impact that the work travel has on my family — which for me means mostly trying to limit the amount of last minute trips out of town. Everyone handles it better when they know it’s coming.

          A couple days ago my boss asked me if I’d be able to do a quick 2 day trip to visit a customer next week. I told her yes, but that I would really like to be home by Thursday night to take my daughter to a movie night at school that I promised her we’d go to. She’s in the very early stages of puberty, and is a little nervous and freaked out by the way her body is (and will) start changing, and is a little vulnerable right now, and needs to know that her mom isn’t blowing her off for her job. 8 1/2 is pretty early to be dealing with that. I said, “I’m not saying that I can’t travel because my daughter is getting boobs, but I am saying I that in the short term, she needs some extra TLC and to know that I’m there for her, and to know that we’ll do things together that I promised we’d do.” Luckily my boss is pretty supportive and understanding, so she was fine with that. And it turns out that we don’t have to go after all. But 2 years ago I would have bitten my tongue and then been ticked off about it. Not anymore. And I don’t care if it makes me look bad, or makes me seem less dedicated to my career.

          2. Specialk9*

            You told your boss you have to minimize travel because your daughter is getting boobs?! I mean, good on you for protecting family time and prioritizing your kids, but yeesh that’s TMI at work, and your kid would die of mortification if she knew you told people that.

        3. Student*

          First, you can duck out of this without making it obviously about your kids. You don’t have to say it’s about your kids, just that you aren’t available, have other plans, whatever. If it’s a big meeting that you aren’t really needed at, probably no one will give it a second thought.

          Second, consider going for part of the time. It always looks better to show up, talk to some folks, and then either leave early or show up late, instead of fully missing the event. As long as you’re discrete and don’t make a big thing of it, people will remember that you were there more than that you left for part of it.

          Third, ask a relative or friend to deal with your kids for Halloween. Put your career ahead of it for this one, because it’s such an easy one to outsource and you’re torn. The kids will enjoy trick-or-treating with friends more than with adult family. It’s often not much extra burden for any given parent to supervise one additional kid for trick-or-treating purposes – it’s a low-key holiday as long as you provide a manageable, seasonally appropriate costume (not too cold or hot for your area, no parts that are difficult for kid to manage alone). Then make a point of reserving the next Halloween to hang out with family, if it’s important to you. You don’t have to always put work first, or always put family first – you can alternate, based on needs and mood and whim and personal preference (just like with in-laws).

    6. Dr. Doll*

      He didn’t do this AT you, and he can’t read your mind. It was an oversight from someone who’s probably old enough not to have little kids any more. Chill, and politely say sorry I can’t come.

      Also, I wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to schedule over a secular, non-mandated holiday (which Halloween is) if business needs called for it. If business needs DIDN’T call for it and someone pointed it out to me, I would be very sorry indeed and make a correction for it next year.

      2. Rat Racer*

        Not AT me personally, but still a night when people with kids want to be home to see them off in their costumes, and many people without kids probably have plans. Just highly likely to inconvenience lots of people.

    7. WellRed*

      Halloween is a big deal with kids and, as far as kid ocassions go, it is one that has few opportunities to celebrate. They grow out of those cute costumes and trick or treating very fast. I say this as a nonparent whose industry scheduled its biggest event over Halloween last year. Probably thousands of irritated parents.

  34. Sunflower*

    Hills to die on at work. We talk all the time about asking if this is really a hill you’re willing to die on so I’m Wondering what instances/scenarios in your work place have made you say ‘Yes this is a hill I’m willing to die on’

    I think I’m approaching my first ‘this is a hill I’m willing to die on at work. This person who is above me is insisting I let them take over certain parts of my job but then blaming me when I don’t properly set her up to take on the work. This is just something I’m absolutely not going to do and I’m talking to my boss about either 1. Not letting her take over the work or 2. Clearly laying out the lines that if she takes on the work, shes responsible for 100% of the process. UGH

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      My company is increasing in size and running out of office space. We were told the other day that “just because you have your own office now is no guarantee you’ll have one in the future.” I’m giving serious thought to whether being displaced from my office to a cubicle and/or doubled up with a coworker is a hill I’m willing to die on. It might very well be.

      1. BRR*

        I recently had to temporarily move to an extremely small desk with no privacy. While I ended up getting a cube after a lot of effort, it was a hill I would die on. It was so small that I couldn’t even use my computer and write in a notebook at the same time. It was completely demoralizing.

      2. MissDissplaced*

        This: I’m quitting a job (partly) over losing my office. I was forced out of my office for a male coworker when office space was tight. I was not happy, but as we were moving in a year, I was promised an office at new location. Well, new location and NO office! Meanwhile, 3 are empty!
        I gave my notice.

      3. Specialk9*

        My office did that, from all offices to stylish cubicle hell, with no privacy and several loud talkers per hall. Everyone basically just went to 100% telework. It was bad for morale all around.

    2. Rat Racer*

      This is an interesting question – and makes me think: what do we really mean when we talk about the hills we would die on, and what it means to “die”?

      Is a hill anything we would spend political capital on at work? I do a lot of accruing and spending of political capital – I think everyone does. But I think the “hill” requires expending political capital for something on principle, and not because it gets something done. Is that right?

      And then what do we mean by “die”? Like how much capital do you have to spend until it counts as a death?

      Sunflower, by the definitions above, what you’re describing doesn’t really sound like a hill you’re dying on – it sounds like taking determined measures to avoid getting thrown under a bus. I would totally spend capital on that! (Would not waste my time on Air Conditioner wars, who microwaves what, and someone using too much emphatic punctuation in an email). Maybe that’s a false dichotomy though.

      PS Sorry for waxing philosophical here – this seems to be one of those days…

      1. Bow Ties Are Cool*

        To me, in a work context, “hill I’m willing to die on” means “I will immediately commence a job search if this goes the wrong way”.

        1. Sunflower*

          Exactly. If one of those two items aren’t proposed, I don’t believe I can succeed in my job or with this person.

        1. Mephyle*

          Or to give a flat ‘no’ to the thing you refuse to do, and take the consequences up to and including leaving the job.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        To me the phrase “hill to die on” means it is a deal breaker you would be willing to quit/get fired over.

        1. Sunflower*

          Sorry that was a little confusing! I explained below but what I should have said is ‘This person who is above me is insisting I let them take over certain parts of my job that she thinks she understands but doesn’t and although I do my best to set her up, the job isn’t really made to be split up like this but she won’t accept that those two things are the issue and it’s not that I didn’t do my job property’

          2. Anion*

            Ah! Thanks for the clarification, heh. That does sound really irritating!

            The fact that she’s refusing to take responsibility when it comes to handling issues on-site is definitely the thing I’d emphasize to my boss, if I were in your position. Maybe frame it as, “Boss, Jane seems to have trouble understanding how to manage problems when they arise at the venue, so she calls me to tell me to deal with the vendor, but it’s awkward since I’m not actually there. I worry that it’s affecting our relationships with our vendors, especially since some of the issues she’s asking me to handle are very minor. I think it might be best for me to attend events with her until she’s ready to take the initiative herself,” or something like that? Like, wording that makes it clear she’s passing the buck and making everyone look bad, while not making it seem like you’re tattling or trying specifically to say “She’s passing the buck and shirking her duties while blaming me.”

            I mean, obviously you know your boss & job best, so you might be able to just say, “Jane seems to want to have all the fun and credit without doing any of the actual work, and it’s really starting to irritate me.” Which would probably be the most satisfying way to do it. :-) But hopefully my suggestion helps a little.

            Good luck!

      2. Sunflower*

        I’m an event planner. This person wants me to plan the entire event while she insists on being onsite to ‘manage’ it. I’ve found out what that means is she essentially expects me to pre-plan the entire event and then remotely manage the event while she is there. For example, a table was missing and instead of telling someone who works at the venue, she called me to tell them and then flipped out that it was missing even though I told them we needed it way ahead of time. Sure I could tell her every little thing she needed to do while managing an event onsite but that isn’t my job and I don’t have the time nor the interest in doing that. And it seems clear she isn’t able to fix a problem on the ground- so she should’t volunteer to do take that job.

        This stuff is part of events- it just happens. If I was onsite, any of her ‘problems’ would not have been problems. Which is why she either needs to relinquish that control to my team or she needs to take responsibility for her role she volunteered for, instead of blaming my team for run of the mill live event issues. (Sorry that kind of turned into a rant but I could rant about ppl thinking they know how to run events and then realizing that it’s not just boozing and schmoozing)

    4. Ama*

      I know what mine is definitely. I have coworkers whose jobs require a lot more travel than mine (I do about 4-6 trips a year, they are in the double digits, plus a lot of their travel includes weekends, where mine does only about once a year). For a little while I was working closely with one of the departments that does a lot of travel and I was worried I was going to be asked to start helping out with their travel load, and I knew that wasn’t going to work well for me. (Thankfully I was only ever asked to help with places that were local or a short train ride away, and then they hired a new employee.)

      Frequent air travel is really hard on my chronic sinus issues — I much prefer my department’s schedule where we take longer trips but much less frequent ones. I love this job but if I had to start flying to multiple locations in a week like my coworkers sometimes do in their busiest periods I would start looking.

    5. another Liz*

      Recently died on my hill, and I am not sorry. Doctor I worked under did something shady-not illegal but definitely not best practice. We were verbally promised by a higher-up it was a spur of the moment judgement call and wouldn’t happen again. A few weeks later, Dr. Questionable told me in no uncertain terms they intended to do it again on a regular basis. (Original incident happened on my day off, but HR did ask my opinion to gauge whether affected co-worker was over reacting, so I think Dr. Questionable didn’t know I knew as much as I did). I went to the higher up, was shocked to learn they knew and supported Dr. Q’s position for financial reasons (despite possibly jeopardizing standard of care). I was let go without warning by total coincidence for a non-work related issue (yeah right) two weeks later. But I have a better gig now, and the verbal promises are now written policy, so I consider it a win.

  35. Nervous Accountant*

    Is it particularly hard to build goodwill and good relationships at other companies? Yall know I’ve written about the problems I’ve had in the beginning and even most recently. Despite the crappy ppl and times, I’m on really good terms with my manager. Plus I like his management style more than our boss’s (she’s the one who sends the nasty emails and says the ridiculous stuff). His “nasty” email is light years away from her “normal” emails.

    I generally like my job and most of the ppl I work with a lot but I started looking mostly bc of salary. He said that if I stay until next year he’ll fight for a higher pay raise for me. I have no reason to distrust him and I know he’ll protect me from her nastiness.

    I mean….I”m still looking but I’m also 100% OK with staying here one more tax season and then bailing afterwards. It’s nice having a good relationship but I”m wondering if I’m putting TOO much emphasis on it?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I put a high value on having a good boss. There’s an expression “people quit bosses, not jobs”. So I think it’s safe to assume that a good number of people place a high value on a good boss.
      My uncle managed a department for a fairly well known newspaper. He said he saw it first hand. People are will to work for a little bit lesser pay with a good boss, than risk moving to a job with a bad boss with more pay.

  36. I NC You There*

    Something went down this week and I’m not sure how to feel about it. I’ve been at my job for 9 months and am really underutilized, which is acknowledged; there is a long training process for my role. I thought I was progressing well, and I keep asking for additional work and higher-level tasks, and I’m told they will come in time.

    This week I learned that because of a business need, my newly hired peer will be taking on responsibilities aside from our regular duties. This includes something that was discussed before he got here as a task I would like to take on, but it was pushed aside in favor of other priorities. So this new guy is basically getting a shift in his work that will include a lot more visibility. He has experience doing this type of work but in a very different industry.

    I wouldn’t care so much except it’s raising my hackles. Add to this that there’s no clear plan for me and my (also female) co-worker except to take on more grunt work. I took this job and was thrilled that it meant getting out of grunt work. Also add a tendency for our industry to be very man-dominant and that I got seriously mansplained yesterday (I am apparently incapable of being right about anything that I’ve worked in for 15 years), and I feel like this new shifting in duties has a lot to do with my peer’s gender.

    Does it sound like I’m totally overreacting?

    1. squids*

      Doesn’t sound like overreacting to me. I had a similar thing happen years ago, where a co-worker and I were dreadfully underutilized, and had regularly talked with our manager about taking on more challenging tasks. And then she decided to hire an intern to take on the more challenging tasks we’d brought up. Both of us left within 2 months.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, it doesn’t sound like you’re overreacting.

      Did the mansplaining incident have anything to do with your peer’s new duties? If not, and you haven’t brought it up yet, I’d test the waters. “We talked about additional higher-level tasks, and you said they’d be coming. This thing Fergus is working on is exactly what I was thinking about, and ever since we talked about it in January, I’ve been looking forward to it. I’d like to be involved in this too, if that’s possible. If not, can we discuss a timeline for when I’ll be able to do more of X and Y?”

      1. I NC You There*

        The incident was separate, but it was my boss interrupting me while I was explaining something to this guy. Which, in my mind, sets it up so this guy won’t respect my expertise. My boss has done similar things to one other colleague in particular– a man– so it’s very much him and not me, but it just added to the pile of stuff that makes me feel undervalued. I have a ton of skills that haven’t been touched here, and I start to worry that they will assume I don’t have them at all.

        I do need to address my role and goals with my boss soon. Unfortunately, I’m kind of stuck here, as I left my last two jobs after less than two years (left the first for a great opportunity at the second, left the second because it was toxic and dysfunctional) and there’s very little available for me in this city. (I may be moving in two years to a place with better options; I had a very long stint at one company before I moved on from there.) I want to be successful here and I really like the work, so I want to avoid flailing.

    5. Yams*

      Maybe, but if I were in your position I would already be looking for work so I can be ready to leave at the 1 year mark.

    7. oranges & lemons*

      Ugh, this would drive me crazy too. A somewhat similar thing has happened to me at my current job, which has something of a mix of creative tasks and grunt work. My male colleauge, who is at the same level as me, has gradually gotten away with shifting more and more of the grunt work to me and my female colleagues by putting very little effort into it so that managers have just stopped assigning it to him.

  37. anonfriday*

    I work for a medium-sized company and our CEO is wanting to embrace a new organizational structure (along the lines of Zappos and holacracy, but that’s not it). One of its key components is valuing diversity in the workplace (which I’m a big fan of). I volunteered to be on a subcommittee to examine this issue … and I’m getting a lot of pushback from employees (95% white, 95% straight, mostly male). They truly don’t understand how diversity affects their ability to do their job in any way (we’re not in finance, but I’m getting feedback like “a banker is a banker is a banker, and how does it matter how many non-white bankers work for our company”). I’ve tried to educate: “statistically, racially diverse companies outperform non-diverse companies” and “statistically, diverse groups make better decisions” complete with links and brochures, but I’m not getting any traction.

    Has anyone successfully implemented any kind of diversity program/education in their workplace? Can you point me in the right direction for good resources, or give me any pointers? How did you get everyone onboard? (My interpretation is that people here feel threatened or devalued.) Were there any ramifications for new hires, such as prejudicial treatment (oh, that’s the “token non-white person”) and how did you handle that? I’m really glad our CEO is emphasizing this issue, and I’m really appalled at some of the attitudes here from people that I’ve worked with/known for years. And I’m embarrassed that I didn’t recognize that earlier.

    1. Manders*

      My husband’s going through the same thing right now–he works for a school that pays a lot of lip service to diversity, but the older all-white staff have a lot of political power and don’t like change.

      Something he’s been trying to focus on is pointing out parts of the system that create inequality in ways people don’t realize. For instance, this school looks for a very specific type of prestige in its hiring process, and that prestige is not cheap or easy to come by if you’re not from a very specific racial and socioeconomic group. As a result, the school’s been turning down diverse candidates who don’t quite fit the mold in favor of “safe bets” who are all from exactly the same background. He’s trying to encourage people with hiring power to consider taking younger, less established teachers from a variety of backgrounds and training them rather than finding someone who checks every box. Is that something that could work in your industry?

      1. anonfriday*

        It is (and it’s helpful that this directive is coming from our CEO, who has The Most hiring power) … HOWEVER, we’ve only just begun this new initiative and already I’m hearing comments of “s/he was only hired because they’re not-white”. Our industry has a pretty intensive testing/exam process, and the old (white) school crowd here feels that testing process is “objective” when it is, in fact, not – based on those same reasons you list above. So when the stats come out and they see that they took applicant ranked #14 instead of applicant ranked #3, it becomes this “you were only hired because you’re not-white” thing and it’s very threatening to the old crowd. I’m really struggling on how to change that attitude … this is something I’m not trained in or have ever dealt with before, but I am very passionate about.

        1. Anion*

          Well…I’m a little confused here (and please hear me out), because if you’re hiring someone who ranked #14 instead of #3, and you’re hiring that #14 because of the need for diversity (which I support)…then isn’t it actually true that they were only hired because they’re non-white?

          Is it really serving your customer base to deliberately hire people who are less capable of doing the work?

          (Especially if the work is rather technical; who’s taking up the slack while new people fill in the gaps of their knowledge, or fixing the problems caused by their lack? And quite frankly, I can’t blame your employees for feeling devalued by this; I’d feel pretty devalued if I’d been required to meet very strict entrance requirements for my work but someone else didn’t have to because of the color of their skin. It would really add insult to injury if it then became my job to fix their mistakes. Of course it may not be their job in your company, but in some companies it would/will be.)

          Would it perhaps be a better idea to, instead of focusing on hiring “diverse” candidates who are less capable or educated, to set up some kind of training program or community outreach in order to help those less-capable candidates become capable? In other words, if you set up a volunteer-taught class, and contact your local unemployment offices/workforce offices (whatever they’re called there) to say you’re looking for people to take the class in hopes of meeting X requirements–and maybe your company isn’t the only one with that requirement?–then you’d have a great opportunity to actually help people AND provide yourself with a pool of candidates who are both racially diverse *and* qualified to do the work. Even if it’s simply a study- or Q&A-type group that meets once a week for a month or something; good candidates will be the ones who take advantage of the opportunity to learn and grow, and then ace their tests.

          If you have a decent number of candidates (it sounds like you might?) who are familiar with your industry but just not quite “there yet,” this could be a way to improve both their situation and yours, as well as showing real commitment to diversity and outreach on your company’s behalf, as your CEO quite reasonably and rightfully wants to do. It could be a serious win-win.

          Hiring people for jobs for which they’re not qualified is a short-term solution that could well fail in the end, as those unqualified employees are less likely to do well and enjoy the work. Helping people become qualified is a little more of a long-term commitment, but (IMO, and from what I’ve read on the subject) is much more likely to succeed for everyone, will improve the lives of more people than just the few you hire, and (IMO again) shows a *real* commitment to helping those who’ve had less opportunities build better lives, as opposed to just handing out a couple of jobs to people because of their skin color or background–which feels and can end up as simply setting them up to fail. I’m genuinely excited just thinking about the possibility/opportunity you could be offering people who haven’t had as many opportunities in the past, and what that could mean for them.

          I can’t imagine such a thing would be *too* difficult to set up, if you already have testing in place.

          1. anonfriday*

            I don’t agree that the 14th applicant is “less capable of doing the work” than the 3rd ranked applicant. I believe that if our training process was a good as we believe it to be, we can take anyone that passes the test and turn them into a fully-capable employee. It’s not like we hire someone and say “great you’re on your own tomorrow” – our company has different processes than your company does; everyone has to go through training to learn how to do things our way. No one gets hired and is immediately “capable”. I also believe that our ranking system is designed so a typical US-born middle class white male with access to a college education will outscore most anyone.

            I also think that our company would improve with increased diversity, whether that means making our company grow or improving our interactions with the (diverse) public. I also happen to think it’s the public’s right to demand that our company be more racially and ethnically diverse … and that even if that was the ONLY reason we were attempting to become so, it would still be a valid reason.

            (also, for the positions that I’m talking about, we regularly get 300+ applications for each open position; we usually hire from the top 10 but the top 50 or so “meet the minimum qualifications including test scores”)

            1. Anion*

              Perhaps I should have said “less knowledgeable,” then? Without knowing your specific industry (and I’m not asking, of course), all I can do is go by the information given by you, which is that an exam is given to test candidates on their knowledge of something specific and technical which is a required part of their job–and, according to you, an important part of that job, since you say you should be able to train anyone who can pass the test (but not, apparently, those who cannot). And your job has “minimum qualifications including test scores.” So it seems to me that the candidates who demonstrate the most knowledge–i.e. the highest test score–would be the most qualified on strictly the test-score basis. And it would seem to me that deliberately hiring someone whose “rank,” which would be a rank based on qualifications and scores, was lower than that of others and basing that hiring solely on one thing to the exclusion of all others, would justify the claims that someone was hired based on that one thing. (Especially if you normally hire from the top 10 but have now hired a #14 while not hiring a #3; clearly those scores mean enough in your company to be the baseline of hiring decisions, and clearly your employees are aware of this.)

              I would ask if skin color and sex are things included in the rankings, since you say college-educated white men are automatically advantaged above, say, college-educated white women or college-educated Asian men or women or college-educated African-American men or women. The only way I can see that being explicitly the case would be if, say, a candidate gets 10 “points” for being white but only 9 for being a POC–obviously that needs to change immediately. I simply don’t believe that women or POC are by default less intelligent and/or capable than white men (and find the idea that they might be frankly offensive), so I can’t see any reason why, say, a male African-American Yale graduate would score less highly than a male white community college graduate.

              I certainly agree that your company could likely improve with, and benefit from, a more diverse pool of employees. I certainly agree that the public could rightfully demand that your company be more racially and ethnically diverse (have they done so?), since you serve the public and serve a diverse community. I certainly agree that such would be a valid reason to increase diversity in your company. My suggestion was designed to not only hopefully solve the problem you identified with the approach suggested by Manders but also to benefit more disadvantaged people than simply the few you actually hire. I admit I’m rather confused as to why you’re justifying your reasons for encouraging a more diverse workforce to me, since I thought it was extremely clear from my comment that I support that idea–all of those ideas.

              I’m sorry to have failed in understanding you here, and to have offered so enthusiastically an idea which was apparently so unworkable or unpleasant that you didn’t even acknowledge its existence. I thought someone with the admirable goal of increasing the racial diversity of one’s company’s workforce would like the idea of helping the entire applicant base (rather than just one or two lucky enough to be hired), eliminating a cause of tension between new hires and old, improving the baseline skills of one’s new hires, increasing the company’s visibility, and providing an additional benefit to the diverse community in which said company is located–of potentially changing lives for the better, all while showing the company’s commitment to diversity is more than skin-deep (no pun intended). My apologies for the overstep. Best of luck to you.

              1. Specialk9*

                “I’m sorry to have failed in understanding you here, and to have offered so enthusiastically an idea which was apparently so unworkable or unpleasant that you didn’t even acknowledge its existence.”

                Ooh, beautifully done. It sounds like an apology, but it’s actually a complaint and a criticism, wrapped in martyrdom. Brava!

                1. Anion*

                  It wasn’t meant that way. I genuinely feel/believe that I’ve somehow offended or upset the OP with my suggestion–I thought that seemed clear given the tenor of the reply I got, and I honestly wanted to apologize and try to further explain my reasoning. Since other commenters made statements similar to mine about the hiring practice(s) but I was the only one who got a reply in that tone, it (again) seemed clear that there was some other issue at play.

                  I’ve been struggling for a little while with feeling very unwelcome here, and this just seems like further confirmation that my feeling is correct. That’s all.

              2. anonfriday*

                I didn’t respond to your suggestion of a community outreach program because I was bristling over your suggestion that these candidates are “less capable, less educated, less knowledgeable, or less qualified” (all things that you said in your statement). I didn’t make any insinuation to that effect and you did – which is what I am battling here in this committee. It SHOULDN’T all come down to just a rank score. True, you don’t know my company’s unique situation but the difference between candidate ranked #3 & candidate ranked #14 is so small. It’s the difference between a 2200 SAT score and a 2250. Does it matter? Sure, maybe. But either way it’s a very high score! Some people are just better test takers. The test also has an interview portion, and I believe there may be unconscious bias that the (white male) test givers rank certain people higher. If we offered (diverse) candidate #14 a “workshop” to attend or a community outreach opportunity because they’re not “there yet”, I hope that person is outright offended – because there is NOTHING “lesser” about them (qualifications, knowledge, capability) except for a dumb test score.

                I may have not made it clear, but to do so: in absolutely no way would I ever advocate hiring someone who is unqualified, incapable or less knowledgeable just to meet some kind of diversity quota.

                1. Anion*

                  Okay. So in your initial comment you specifically said that you’re having issues with how current employees react to the new “diverse” hires, and that you suspect said employees feel devalued because–in their minds–you’re hiring people whose qualifications are not as high as those of people you’re not hiring. I replied to that explaining why those people might feel that way, as a means to help you understand them (since you specifically said you did not) and, by understanding them, help alleviate the situation; I took your post at face value, as we’re supposed to do here.

                  I don’t know why you GAF what *I* think of the qualifications of your new employees, and to be honest I don’t care about their qualifications (I also said more than once that I don’t even know what industry you’re in so am just going by what you said; given that, it’s a little much to get angry at me for getting things wrong about your process, isn’t it?). YOU said you’re hiring employees of lower “ranks” and that your current employees are both noticing it and being upset by it. I interpreted that the way any other thinking person would–as saying you’re hiring people your employees think are less qualified (in fact, again, you specifically *said* that your current employees think the new hires are less qualified; I asked if there might be a reason for that–like their having to do extra work, etc.–but that question is apparently not worth considering), hires who did not score as well on whatever these important technical tests are, meaning they know less about the subject–and offered a suggestion to alleviate it.

                  In your reply, you didn’t clarify how small the difference between #3 and #14 is, which you could easily have done. Nor did you explain anything about how some of the rank comes from an essay question and an interview, which, again, you could easily have done. Instead you said that you “…believe that if our training process was a good as we believe it to be, we can take anyone that passes the test and turn them into a fully-capable employee.” Which reads to me like, “if our training process is as good as I hope, it can train even people who don’t do well on the test,” which again sounds to me like it’s saying people who don’t do well on the test likely need extra help. It also underscores to me that this is pretty technical work.

                  Regardless of that, though, the fact is that you asked about the resentful employees and I offered some thoughts on it. You asked for help and I offered it, and instead of paying attention to that you immediately decided I wasn’t worth replying to with anything but a lecture about why I should support something I already said I supported–something I was offering suggestions to help expand, and to help the community you claim to want to help beyond the few you hire, out of a genuine desire to support that goal and help people in a community that you seem to fell could use it.

                  I’m stunned that you would actually be offended to be offered help in passing a test you did not pass originally, or help in scoring better on a test in which you scored acceptably but not high enough to be hired. Of course there is nothing “lesser” about any human being, minority or not! Why are you equating someone’s test scores with their quality or worth as a human being? I certainly did not do so, but you certainly seem to be. And you keep insisting that someone’s qualifications are just as good as everyone else’s regardless of test score, when from what you yourself posted, test scores are *part of* their qualification, so forgive me for being confused.

                  Several people made similar comments to mine, about hiring candidates who, however angry it makes you to say, appear less qualified based on the ranks that are apparently the basis of your company’s hiring. I was the only one who offered a suggestion to help, and also the only one who was subjected to a lecture from you that, frankly, made offensively and insultingly clear you assumed a lot of unpleasant things about me.

                  I sincerely hope that you’re not addressing those unhappy employees–of whom you also speak so contemptuously–at your workplace with the same disdainful, accusatory attitude you’ve given me here. I also hope that you learn to assume good intent from other people, and consider that their viewpoints might be valid even if you don’t like them.

                  Once again, I apologize for taking your post at face value and engaging with it as it was given, and for offering a suggestion that you found insulting on others’ behalf. I shall drop the subject now, and will not offer any further justification or explanation that may disturb or anger you.

          2. Lalaroo*

            You’re making a lot of unqualified assumptions in this comment.
            1. You’re assuming that this exam has a significant and direct correlation to job performance, which it may very well not (think of SATs, LSATs, etc)
            2. You’re assuming that the difference in score between the 3rd and 14th rank is significant – it may be the difference between missing 3 questions or missing 4, which is not actually very meaningful
            3. You’re assuming that being 14th in the ranking means you are unqualified, rather than just slightly less qualified than number 3 – there may be 600,000 people ranked, and in that case 3 vs 14 is a negligible difference
            4. You’re assuming that the person ranked 14th didn’t meet the entrance requirements – it may be that the requirements are just to be ranked 50 and above
            5. You’re assuming that exam rank is the only factor that affects capability – perhaps this position would benefit from the type of flexible thinking that anonfriday notes diverse groups are more likely to display, and that benefit outweighs any deficit that accompanies a lower exam ranking

            There are probably more, but those are the ones I noticed off the top of my head.

            1. Anion*

              1. I did not assume that. What I did assume is that someone with knowledge gaps in a technical subject who then has to perform technical work based on that subject may need a bit more time to fill those gaps. That is very specifically what I said. If you feel “Someone lacking knowledge in certain aspects of the job has to learn those aspects at some point in order to do the job” is an “unqualified” assumption (I believe you mean “unfounded” assumption?), please feel free to explain why, and how someone could perform those aspects of their job without knowing how to do so.
              2. No, I am not assuming that at all. The significance of the difference in ranks matters little, except that there *is* a difference. 3 is higher than 14, and the OP’s employees know it; 3 is higher than 14 and that difference is apparently significant enough to them–people who do know what the difference is–that they’re mentioning it and it’s breeding some unpleasantness. I trust the OP’s assessment, and she seems to be saying there is at least more of a difference than one question; if that was all it was, I doubt either she or the other employees would mention it.
              3. I made no such assumption; looking back I see that my last full paragraph, which was intended as a general statement summarizing my reasons for making what I foolishly thought was a helpful suggestion which could benefit anonfriday’s company (and, more importantly, its pool of minority potential hires and their community in general) and supporting its potential implementation, could–if one did not bother to really read the rest of my comment or attempt to understand my point–perhaps be taken as a direct comment on those people anonfriday’s company is hiring. I thought it would be clear, given that my entire comment/suggestion was predicated on the idea of turning the “qualified but not stellar” applicants into “stellar” ones (and that I said that repeatedly), that I was speaking in generalities there, and not of the people I thought my idea could/would help. I apologize for my apparent lack of clarity.
              4. You’re really stretching now. I did not assume the person ranked 14th didn’t meet entrance requirements (another way to say “didn’t meet entrance requirements,” btw, might be something like, “is unqualified.” But why let redundancy spoil the chance to pick another person apart). But from the POV of one of the people whose mindset anonfriday said she wanted to understand and change, they are likely to see it as, “When I was hired you had to be in the top 10 [in other words, it was a “requirement” to be in the Top 10], but X got hired and s/he was only #14, while someone else who was #3 got passed over.” In that person’s mind, #3 met the “Top 10 requirement” that anonfriday herself mentioned as their “usual” “requirement,” but #14 did not meet it. That person doing the thinking in this scenario had to meet that strict requirement, and #14 did not; that is why they’re annoyed, which is exactly what I said: I’d feel devalued if I’d had to meet strict requirements and a new hire hadn’t had to. Would it be more palatable to say “The employees feel devalued because they had to meet a certain very high standard but this new hire did not?” It’s basically the same thing; I thought “strict entrance requirement” sounded a lot less offensive to the new hire(s) in question than “very high standard,” which is why I used that phrase, but then I foolishly assumed the substance of my comment would be discussed, and the minutiae was less important.
              5. I’m not assuming that, either. Perhaps this position would benefit from diverse thinking. Perhaps it would not. We don’t know that. What we do know is that it is a position that requires a body of detailed technical knowledge, and requires it to the extent that complicated tests are given and must be scored well on if one is to be hired to do this job. What we do also know is that anonfriday’s company considers these scores to be extremely important in hiring, but does not test for “flexible thinking.” In a job whose chief requirement is that employees have readily available a large body of technical knowledge, any lack in that knowledge makes said lacking employee less capable than one with no lack; that seems pretty basic to me. There is no indication from anonfriday that these are positions in which other factors like “flexible thinking” matter more than technical knowledge. I’m sure many of these hires are great employees. Some of them probably are not. That’s how it is with people, see, they’re all different. (BTW, anonfriday did not note that diverse groups “are more likely to display…flexible thinking.” Anonfriday noted that statistically, diverse groups tend to make better decisions. Those are not the same thing. It honestly surprises me that someone as obsessed with exact word choices and as dedicated to ferreting out any potential hidden meaning in someone’s quickly tossed-out internet comment as yourself would get that wrong, but you in fact have–just as you have gotten wrong all of your “assumptions” about my comment.) If anonfriday feels that “flexible thinking” would benefit the company more than technical proficiency, then I would certainly encourage her to make that case to those in charge of hiring; unfortunately, that’s not the question she asked at all.

              Did you have any thoughts about the suggestion I naively offered anonfriday in order to potentially improve the scores of the entire hiring pool (and offer genuine help to a larger number of minority people in the community who could really use it), thus eliminating the chance for employees to complain about new hires with lower test scores? Or was typing my suggestion out, along with an answer to anonfriday’s specific question about the thinking of the complaining employees, the reasons behind my suggestion, and its potential benefits, just a stupid waste of my time, not worth your or anyone else’s effort to read, consider, or address when you could instead just dissect, in a patronizing tone, the “assumptions” you think I made?

              1. Howdy*

                Anion, I think that your suggestions were great and well-thought-out! Setting up a training program or community outreach to help those less knowledgeable candidates become more knowledgeable would be a much better way to help more people. The company would have a much bigger pool to choose from in the future. It’s about looking at things in the long run. I don’t want a company to hire me because my skin is brown or because I’m a woman in order to meet some requirement. Hire me because of my talents, skills, and abilities. If I don’t possess the necessary skills or meet certain requirements based on a test (which is obviously important or it wouldn’t be there) then you can inform me of that. This is the stage where the company could say,” You didn’t meet the requirements, but we do have a class/a program/something that we offer to people(no matter skin color, etc.) in the community if you are interested.” I would definitely sign up for that if I was serious about working in that industry/field. It would be a chance to ask questions and gain information from people who are already working there. That would benefit so many people. Only those who were determined would complete the class/program to its entirety.

                2. Anion*

                  Thanks so, so much, Howdy! That was my hope–that this would be a way to help many more people than just the few who are hired, and provide the company with a much larger pool of highly qualified potentials. As you said so aptly, yeah, it’s about looking at the long term, planting seeds for the future. (And it would demonstrate to the community that there’s a real commitment, not just hire-a-few-POC-and-we’re-done style lipservice, if you know what I mean, thus hopefully attracting more minority applicants for all positions.) If I was a young person of color in that community, the fact that Company X offered this sort of training–and often hired people from its training classes, even!–might even make me think, “That means a career in Y is actually feasible for me, and this company really cares about me and my community.” The employees currently unhappy about “lower-ranked” employees being hired could possibly be recruited to help with the training classes, so they can see the ways the testing isn’t as objective as they think it is and will have an opportunity to get to know the potential hires, too, so they feel like part of the process. As you said, finishing the class would show a level of real determination, so that means finishing the class would be a bonus even for those applying at other companies (plus it might give those applicants a good reference, in the class’s instructor–a lot of people would probably *love* to be able to put a reference like that on an application or resume).

                  All of my friends who are POC have always felt the way you do–they’ve been really adamant about not wanting to be hired based on their skin color alone, or have it be a major factor in their hiring. And as a woman, I feel the same way–I don’t want to get a job because of my reproductive organs, I want to get it based on merit. It feels really patronizing to me to do that. So I guess I come at the question from that perspective.

                  Thanks again, so much, for your thoughts and feedback. It truly means a lot to me.

          3. Ann O.*

            Is there a way to blind the exact stats? I see you say below that you think the top 50 candidates could all do the job. Could you simply present test results in batches (maybe top 10 in one band, top 25 in one band, top 50 in one band)? Do you have, or is there a way to attain, data that shows test results within these batches are all predictive of the same excellence of performance?

            I understand the desire not to cater to privilege, but I think it’s fairly logical and human that people who see #14 is taken over #3 because #14 improves diversity, will indeed feel like someone was hired only because they were not-white. Especially if wrongly or rightly, they don’t buy into the idea of any kind of bias in the testing. The social justice theory that I’m seeing in vogue right now seems very into being abrasive and making people uncomfortable instead of trying to reach people where they’re at. But unless you’re planning on firing large swaths at people, you don’t have an alternative but to take their fears seriously.

            It’s hard to suggest specific remedies without knowing anything about your industry. As a snarky leftist, my instinct is to point out that unless they genuinely believe white men are just that much better than everyone else, obviously a 90%+ white male workforce is not actually getting the best people for the job. But that’s not going to help. Are there ways to bring them on board as part of the change (like maybe a bonus for recruiting [x] people of color? that may be a horrible idea, but I’m trying to think of things that will make them feel like part of the solution, like they benefit, and invested in the success of the more diverse workforce).

        2. Panda Bandit*

          They’re placing too much importance on the exams and rankings. Someone can test very well and then do badly on the actual job duties, and vice versa.

          1. Specialk9*

            It sounds like the root of your problems is in the ranking.

            Find a way to rework the tests so they are less racially biased but still testing the key knowledge and abilities.
            You will likely need professional help with this.

            If the algorithm is opaque to the complaining workers, consider adding questions that encourage diversity. So #13 before is actually #5 now.

            1. anonfriday*

              I agree that this is the problem. Like I said, I’m not sure our test even measures what we want it to – for instance, there’s an essay portion that gets graded on creativity, grammar, logical flow … but there’s no real writing component to our field.

              We’ve discussed changing the test/ranking system, but current employees are complaining that we’re making it somehow “easier,” again setting up that us vs them dichotomy. We’re not trying to make it “easier,” we’re just trying to make it DIFFERENT. These employees are union members and working with the union to make any adjustments to the hiring system is an uphill battle.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I wonder if bringing in an outside expert would help, even if they say the exact same things you’ve been saying?
      This stuff is so hard — I am very conscious of the lack of diversity on my team, and still can’t figure out how to crack it, because of the many factors out of my control (from how HR is screening through all the larger societal stuff.)

    3. Maya Elena*

      Forcing that kind of thing will only make people resentful. Unless the workforce has a history of being hostile, openly or subtly, to women or minorities, pushing diversity come across as an implicit accusation that they are racist and sexist just for being white and male, which some people believe, but is an adversarial position and by no means mainstream. An outside consultant is also unlikely to persuade them, because they see that industry as a racket that companies pay to cover their butts.

      Also, people who say “a banker is a banker is a banker” often actually mean it, and aren’t trying to secretly signal that they hate women and minorities.

      1. anonfriday*

        Well, I personally believe that my organization should mirror the population that we serve, which is about 40% diverse (and that proportion is growing all the time).

        I agree that these men who say “a banker is a banker is a banker” do TRULY believe that. However, I don’t think that they understand the institutional discrimination that does not allow equal access for all populations to score as high as needed to be hired here (and I’m not even sure that our scoring system is measuring what we want it to measure).

        Basically these guys all took the test 5-15 years ago, and now we’re exploring the possibility of ranking applicants in a different way, and they’re totally against it (because it wouldn’t be “fair”). It’s also setting up the dichotomy of them (who took a “fair” test) vs others (who took an “easier” or “different” test and hence are “lesser”). But if we never change anything, we’re going to keep attracting/keep hiring a bunch of dudes who think and look and act exactly the same, and our company isn’t going to grow.

        Do you have any suggestions for how I can change this attitude? Or are you saying that you don’t think my company should be advocating for diversity if we’re currently “hostile” towards disadvantaged groups because employees will resent it?

      2. Future Analyst*

        But someone who says “a banker is a banker is a banker” is operating under the luxurious assumption that everyone has the same opportunities available to them. Even if they’re not signaling that they hate women and minorities, they are also not operating with a clear understanding of their privilege, and it’s okay to work to fix that in a company, even if it rubs certain people the wrong way. Change isn’t comfortable, but refusing to do so should not be tolerated. Being resentful of your company changing their mode of hiring to be more inclusive of non-white, non-male individuals is not exactly professional.

    4. Student*

      One of the biggest things to successfully change a culture from a monoculture to a more diverse one is that you need to reach a “critical mass” of diversity before it will stick. That means hiring a trickle of minorities isn’t going to help. If there’s not enough, they’ll leave as fast as you can hire them. You need to get a bunch of them in at once (not exact same time, but you need a quick increase, not a gradual draw-up – like maybe a specific recruiting drive, or a substantive hiring change that brings in a lot more minorities over a short term). Once there’s “enough” diversity, it becomes self-supporting to a certain extent – the minorities support each other, and the white guys get “used to” the minorities as a fact of life rather than as anomalies. “Enough” is hard to quantify and varies by organization – but it’s more than the one token minority, below the population average.

      You also need to have comments ready to address the obvious pushback points. These kinds of objections should never come as a surprise to the people rolling out these programs, and you need to have responses ready. You also need to make calls between people who are just trolling you – don’t indulge them – and people who genuinely want to understand what minorities bring to the table. You need to engage, but not over-engage – which is very tricky. I can give an example – when they ask what minorities do for the company, you can present data. You can present anecdotes. You can talk to them about the fact that, like it or not, minorities have very different experiences than they do, and those experiences are helpful perspectives to bring to the job.

      You can’t indulge concern-trolling questions and come off as serious, though. We had a “diversity town hall” recently where high-up managers talk to staff about diversity-related concerns. Our managers refused to define diversity in these meetings. They refused to state any concrete objectives, goals, or concerns that they had to change our current make-up – even though our work is very heavily white-male. When a white guy stood up and told them that they ought to hire more local white rural men because they’d be “more comfortable” and “integrate better” to the area than blacks from the city (seriously, can’t make this up!), the managers nodded and said they’d look into whether we needed more local-white-rural representation at the company. When you can’t stand up to that and say, “No, that’s not the problem we need to prioritize” then your team look and sound like they are not the least bit serious about tackling diversity issues.

      2. Specialk9*

        Not just a critical mass of diverse co-workers, but also people of color in senior management positions.

        I can tell you exactly how many executives, VP and above, are women, and how many are people of color. (Waaaaay too few, given how many brilliant women and POC there are in the lower ranks.) If I were planning on moving to that level, I’d leave if I thought it were an impossible uphill battle.

    5. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

      I don’t know how nerdy the environment is in your office, so adapt as necessary, but there’s some good literature on the negative effects that racism/white supremacy/white monoculture have on white people. (For example, “Psychosocial Costs of Racism to Whites: Understanding Patterns among University Students” by Spanierman et al. I don’t know if I can link to it without getting my comment stuck in comment purgatory, but the full text is available online and should be reasonably easy to find by googling the title.) For a less academic option, SURJ (Showing Up For Racial Justice), a white anti-racism organizing group, has some good resources on its website, which is the full spelled-out name of the organization followed by dot org.

      Is it kind of gross to have to convince your white coworkers that not being passively or actively horrible to POC is in their best interest? I mean, yeah, kinda (though it can also nip some of the White Savior Complex in the bud). But people tend to buy into things better when they can see what’s in it for them, so it might get you more traction than you’ve had so far.

    6. Jinn*

      You have a mandate from leadership. You don’t have to convince the folks on your team. You have to figure out how to get it done.

      I do think they are right, though. Gender, race, ethnicity, don’t matter if the person can do the job. My suggestion: find analogues to the qualities of successful hires in order to expand the pool of potential candidates. And think of this as an iterative process.

  38. Disenchanted parakeet*

    Last week (or the one before) I posted about how the only thing I got from my internship is that I don’t want to be in this line of work.

    I haven’t changed my mind (if anything I feel more strongly about it), yet when I was told they wouldn’t be extending a full-time job offer, I felt…disappointed? Not sad exactly, more like…a blow to self confidence I guess.

    (A full time offer was by no means guaranteed either, so it’s not like I did anything egregiously wrong, just that their needs didn’t extend to hiring me…)

    Is it weird (or hypocritical) to be feeling this way?

    1. beanie beans*

      I had the exact same experience out of college. I interned for a PR firm after getting a communications degree and realized I didn’t want anything to do with the field. The guy who interned with me got offered a permanent job and I got “thank you for your free work the past 6 months.”

      17 years later I’m in a completely different field and have been pretty pleased with where the path away from PR has taken me. And figure them not offering me a job was the best thing that could have happened. I mean, it might not have changed things, but maybe it was the push I needed to rethink what I thought my career would be.

    2. Jake*

      Rejection always sucks, even when its rejection for something you don’t want!

      I applied for a job right out of college, got a phone interview, and I knew instantly it was a bad fit. When they called back a week later to let me know I wasn’t moving forward in their process, I was devastated. I have no idea why, I would’ve been miserable at that job.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      No, I think it’s normal. I mean, you still need a job and this is one you’re comfortable with and felt like you were doing a good job at. And if you’re getting good feedback, it feels natural to assume that means you’re doing good enough to stay!

      (note: I am not at all saying they don’t actually think you did well! It’s just not in the cards right now)

      I had an internship at a nonprofit where I ended doing both my job AND 75% of another intern’s job (who had greatly exaggerated her abilities and wasn’t actually willing to learn how to do the work). My manager talked to me several times about staying on. I was so ready for it. Andddd then the exec director vetoed it and it didn’t happen.

      And it totally still worked out for me; I’m very happy with where I’ve ended up and I literally never think about that whole situation. You’ll be fine :)

    4. NaoNao*

      No, totally not weird! I sometimes felt that way about men I went on (cringe!) “pity dates” or “maybe this will work?” dates, and then they never called. The nerve! :)

    5. Yorick*

      That’s a normal way to feel. I had a 1-yr teaching position and I hated the dept so much, there was no way I’d take the tenure-track job. But my mentor told me I was stupid not to apply: “It won’t be the same place in 10 years! Deans die!” So I applied knowing I wouldn’t take the job unless some miracle happened, but I was still pissed when they didn’t interview me.

      1. Portia*

        Also, that’s so typical of academia. “Just tough it out for 10 years and then you’ll reap your rewards!” But who wants to be miserable for 10 years of their life?

    6. Specialk9*

      It’s like dating – wait, *I* was going to break up with YOU. And you’re a troll, how can *I* not be good enough for YOU?

      :D

  39. Lady Jay*

    Anyone listen to the latest Planet Money podcast, “Hard Work Is Irrelevant”? It’s about Netflix’s approach to work: that good results matter more than hard work, that they seem themselves as a team, not a family, and that if you no longer contribute to the company, you are “moved on”.

    On the surface it sounds good but then the podcast also detailed someone who had health issues because she worked too hard for the company and was “moved on”. I’m also troubled by the Orwellian nature of calling “being fired” or even “being let go” being “moved on” – trying to cast something which is decidedly felt as a negative as a positive.

    I’ll put a link in my comment.

    2. Manders*

      Yeah, that episode really bothered me, especially the part about letting whole divisions go once the task they were working on was done. While it’s normal for a company to act in its own best interest, it really felt like Netflix was making the burden of taking care of workers someone else’s problem by firing and rehiring them at its convenience. It doesn’t have too much of an impact when only one company does it, but if every company acted that way, it would absolutely wreck the economy.

      1. Florida*

        I don’t think it would wreck the economy. If every company did it, employees would be constantly finding ways to add value to the company. If you think about it, this is what commissioned sales is. The company pays you only when you produce.
        I don’t know if this is the best way to run a company because there are many other factors. I’m just saying I don’t think it would wreck the economy. It would change the economy, for sure, but not necessarily in a good or bad way. It would just be different.

        1. Manders*

          Well, the issue that the podcast brings up is that the employees were never given a chance to keep adding value to the company–as soon as their project was done and the company’s immediate needs were met, those workers got bounced out the door, not reshuffled to a new project.

          Netflix’s whole business strategy is built around people having spare room in their budgets for entertainment, which is something people who are chronically job insecure don’t have, so if every company did this Netflix would take a huge hit. They’re basically gambling on the fact that no one else will follow their example.

          1. Florida*

            The podcast mentioned that there were other positions available at the company, but the employees were not qualified for them. If you were working in the DVD department and learning new skills related to streaming on your own, then when the DVD department closed and streaming opened, you’d have a job. On the podcast the people were not reshuffled to new project because they didn’t have those skills.

            And the chronically job insecure do have room in their budget for entertainment. There are a lot of people (definitely not me, and maybe not you) who pay their cable bill before they pay their mortgage/rent. I teach real estate, and when I’m talking about evictions, I ask the class where rent falls on their priority list. At least ten percent of every class says they pay their cable (entertainment) before they pay their rent. (and this is state where it’s pretty easy to evict for non-payment)

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That sort of thing may work for sales, but it doesn’t apply to everything. What about grunt work, which every company has, that doesn’t show up in measurable metrics but helps keep the company going? To expect everyone to work like that is folly–and people do things in different ways, too. A steady quiet worker can contribute just as much as a flashy one.

          1. Chaordic One*

            You’re right, Elizabeth. There’s a lot of difficult-to-do grunt work that doesn’t get the appreciation that it deserves. Then, when a certain person quits, the company wonders why the replacement isn’t keeping up and/or they end up having to hire two people to replace the person who left.

            In the past I worked at one company where the oldest employees glommed onto the easiest-to-service accounts that also brought in the most money. Then, they’d diss the other employees who had smaller accounts that didn’t bring in as much money, but required more customer service. The employer wondered why they had such a hard time keeping employees to work on those smaller accounts.

          2. Florida*

            Grunt work can be measured. And I agree that a steady worker can contribute as much as a flashy one. My point with the sales analogy was that commissioned sales workers are only paid when they add value to the company. If the grunt worker is not adding value to the company, they should go. Value does not have to mean that they themselves are bringing in money (the way a sales employee would), but they have to contribute to adding value to the company. Basically, they can’t be deadwood.
            For example, in my company I work in training. I do not bring any income into the company. In fact, I’m an expense. But I do bring value to the company. Because long-term, our company is better off having trained employees.
            Are you saying that it’s OK for deadwood to be on the payroll?

            1. Florida*

              I said the grunt work COULD be measured, but I didn’t say how. It depends on what exactly the grunt is, but some examples would be:
              For filing – is the information where it needs to be when Big Shot needs to see it?
              For mail room – are employees getting their mail in a reasonable amount of time, deliver to correct person? Does outgoing mail leave the building the same day or next day?
              For data entry – is date entered 99% correctly by a certain deadline?
              For customer service – how many customers left the interaction happy with their problem solved?

              Usually grunt work employees are not paid for results. They are paid by the number of hours their butt is in the chair. That’s paying for inputs rather than outputs.

              BTW, I’m don’t think every employee should be paid 100% on outputs. Sometimes the mail doesn’t get out on time because the mail truck showed up late (or some other item beyond your control). But I do think most businesses focus on inputs more than outputs, particularly with the lower level employees.

    3. Florida*

      I listened to it. In general, when someone is fired that is good for the company. So I think it’s fair for the company to call it by a good name. So if Netflix wants to call it moving on, that OK. Shoot, there are times when someone was fired and I wanted to shout “Hallelujah.” (I resisted the urge to do that publicly.)
      From your perspective, it’s bad because you are now unemployed, so it’s fair for you to call it by a bad name (fired, or whatever word you want).
      I think each party can call it by a name that represents their perspective.

      I do like the idea of measuring outputs not inputs. Way too often, we measure the wrong thing. But the things that we measure gets done. If hours matter, you have people sitting around doing very little, but they are putting in the hours. How does that benefit anyone?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Look at the new bridge, isn’t it pretty?

      Yeah, but is it strong will it hold the traffic?

      It doesn’t matter, all that matters is that it’s pretty.

      Companies get the loyalty they give.

  40. katamia*

    Favorite sites for UK-specific resume/CV advice? Looking at a lot of them, and I’m not sure which ones I should be trusting as I revamp my US resume.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Guardian Careers. They have lots of input from real professionals. And if you search for their old ‘CV Clinic’ series you can see field specific advice given to different types of graduates. (Who were always weirdly resistant to taking the advice!)

  41. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Would you ever consider going back to a company you quit to work for a boss that you had problems working with?
    Basically, my former boss reached out to me about a position she’s desperate to fill at my old company. It’s pretty low stakes: one day a week, not a ton of money, not related to my 9 to 5 job. It could be fun (working with kids!), but she and I didn’t have the best working relationship (communication issues on both sides). Also, while I like working with kids, dealing with parents is such a headache. Is this something I should pursue? Or should I gracefully decline?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      What was your gut reaction when she reached out? Interest, excitement… stomach dropping into your bowels?

      If you have the time to do it without it interfering with your work/personal activities… and you don’t ‘need’ the extra money… I’d follow the gut!

    3. katamia*

      How much of the job is dealing with parents versus dealing with kids? How much do you need the extra money? How well/badly did you and she handle the communication issues (was there swearing and yelling? was it just constant misunderstandings and 10 emails when most people would need 1 or 2? etc.)

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Dealing with the parents shouldn’t be a huge part of this particular job. The parents I had to deal with before have probably left by now since their kids have aged out. So maybe that part of it won’t be such a huge problem.
        As far as communication issues, there was no swearing and yelling, thank goodness! It was mostly her giving very vague instructions and me struggling to understand what she needed from me. I think I know how to ask her to clarify her instructions better now. Before I was too scared to ask.

    4. CatCat*

      Unless I really wanted the money, probably not.

      But since the stakes are so low and if I wanted the money, I’d probably bring the communication issues up front so there is a plan to ensure the problems do not repeat. It sounds like you can afford to be picky here and insist on addressing it before you’ll consider the position. And if it turned out it was more of a pain than it was worth, I’d just quit. “I’m sorry. I thought: X problem would not repeat/I could handle this in addition to my 9-5 job/whatever else, but it isn’t working out.”

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      When you left the old company, would you have been more likely to say “thank God I never have to see those people again” or “it’s nice to know I could come back here if I absolutely had to?”

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        I loved my coworkers and the kids and the community volunteers. My boss was just a mess. Since I left, our relationship has improved. I see her at community events in the area, and she always goes out of her way to come over and chat. I think CatCat is right that I should talk to her about our past communication issues before I accept (if I accept).

    6. Drew*

      Not just consider, I did it. Admittedly, I was in dire need at the time and did not think of it as a long-term solution…but I’m still there most of a decade later, so it CAN work out. Just go in with eyes wiiiiiiide open.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Nope. Many times this does not go well. Old boss hired his friend back to help out because he was desperate. (Red flag: Why is he desperate?) Friend came back and work for a while. It was choppy. At some point, Old boss forgot Friend was doing him a favor and he started treating Friend the way he did he rest of us. (Now we see why Old boss was desperate for help.) Things came to a peak when Old boss accused his friend of stealing. Since I witnessed what happened, I talked to Old boss. For whatever reason, Old boss pushed forward with his accusation and Friend quit. Friend had to quit because his licenses for his day job would be in jeopardy.

      People don’t always change. Assume that your old boss can’t keep help for the same reasons that caused you to leave. Do you still want to do this?

  42. Solidus Pilcrow*

    Just gotta say, I read the “boss pooped in people’s lunch bags and set off small bombs for fun” link from the ‘you may also like’ section, and this made my day. Don’t know how I missed that one the first time around.

    Talk about a toxic and dysfunctional workplace!

    3. Paul*

      Holy crap.

      How the hell does a place get that dysfunctional?

      I know Montrose is an….interesting….place but damn. I’m honestly amazed no one clobbered the guy (or stuffed him down an old mine shaft).

    5. Specialk9*

      Yeah, the part that made my head hurt was him making pipe bombs and wiring them to the company trucks so they’d explode on ignition, and hiding IEDs under leaves where the leaf burning crew would set them off with their blowtorches!!

  43. dreams for plans*

    How long should you wait to follow up after an interview when there’s a hurricane? I had an interview on 8/30 and was told I’d hear back by 9/8 (however, I tacked on 1-2 weeks because #TheProcess). However, I live in Orlando and Irma began affecting the area starting 9/4, many businesses closed 9/7-11, and recovery is ongoing. I don’t expect to hear anything re: an update this week, but I also am wary of checking in too soon post-Irma for fear of coming across as insensitive. When do you think it’s appropriate to send an email to follow up/check in?

    1. Waiting on Godot*

      I’d add another week or two from now given the whole hurricane issue. On a related note, how long is “soon”? Short version, roughly 2.5 months after applying for a job that I felt was the perfect fit for my skill set, I finally got an interview. After the interview they said they’d let me know either way in 2-3 weeks. Fast forward 4 weeks with no word. I sent a follow-up email to the hiring manager. He responded he was working with HR and would have a decision on the position “soon”. It’s now been another 4 weeks with no word. I’m thinking of sending a second follow-up\check-in type email, but I don’t want to come across as pushy. I realize the standard is “forget about it until you hear something”, but I don’t think I’m unreasonable wondering if any decisions have been made.

      1. breadandbutterfly*

        That sounds SO frustrating. I personally don’t think sending an email would be pushy- however, I’m in marketing so I feel like I’m conditioned to be more communicative than people in other fields. However, if it’s been 4 weeks/a month since you last checked in, I really think it would be appropriate to send an email.

        The Manager with whom I interviewed stressed they are desperate for someone to start ASAP, so that has definitely contributed to some “ants in the pants”/”I WANNA KNOOOOW NOOOOW.” I’m thinking of sending an email this upcoming Wednesday.

    2. callalemon*

      Similar happened to me with Harvey – I had a phone interview and was expecting a response the next week, then the hurricane hit (at the end of the week). I waited about another two weeks, but since the company isn’t directly in the affected area (business is still affected), I wish I didn’t wait as long.

      Since you were originally expecting to hear back by 9/8 + 2 weeks = 9/22, I might wait until the end of the month. You can also say you realize the hiring timeline may be impacted by the hurricane, and you’re looking forward to continuing the process when they are ready.

      1. dreams for plans*

        LOVE your wording! Definitely will be using it when I send my check-in email next Wednesday. :)

        1. Anion*

          Could you send a check-in email that isn’t a check-in, but is a “Wanted to say again how great it was to meet you all, and send my sincere hopes that you all made it safely through the storm without damage?” Then you could use callalemon’s wording about looking forward to continuing the process when they’re ready. That way it seems like their safety and security is your major concern (which of course it is) but as an aside you’d still like to speak to them further about the job.

          1. dreams for plans*

            Uh, this is AMAZING. I am going to send an email on Monday (or maybe I should still wait for Wednesday) with your and callalemon’s wording. Thank you!

  44. Can't Sit Still*

    My masters program requires a group project this month, and it’s just as bad as you think it is. The good news is that we decided to accelerate, and we are only graded on our work on the project. But still. I spend all day at work chasing people for conference calls and slide decks, and I have to do it for school, too?

    1. Wheezy Weasel*

      Oh goodness. I gave similar strong feedback in my master’s program about the ‘value’ of group work when the majority of the class is mid career professionals. We know how to work in groups, this isn’t teaching us anything and is in fact a time-suck to try and organize 3 other busy professionals to get work done.

  45. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    There is a job in Chicago that I think I’m well qualified for. The responsibilities sound exciting, and the organization is AMAZING. I have some well-respected names in the industry on my resume, so I think there’s a reasonable chance I’ll get an interview, and I’m thinking about what next steps would be if my application gains any traction. Even though the responsibilities are more than my current role, the title looks like a big step down. If I am fortunate enough to get to the offer stage, and am prepared to accept, would it be reasonable to ask for a different title, as long as it’s clear that I have no expectation of different responsibilities/salary?

    That aside, my biggest concern: I’ve never been to Chicago! I hear good things and I’d love to visit, but I’ve never seriously researched living there, and it would be a major move for me. I’m in a mid-Atlantic city, grew up in the NY metro area, and I’ve traveled widely across the States, but somehow have managed to never set foot anywhere in the Midwest. People who live or lived there, any thoughts on it? What’s transit like? What are the good neighborhoods for young professionals, how does COL compare to other major cities, and what’s outside the city worth exploring on weekend excursions and such?

    1. KatieKate*

      Chicago native here! Public transit is pretty great if you live/work in certain areas. Do you know where the office would be? COL is decent–I split a 2 bedroom in a nice area for 900/person, and you can really go up or down for COL depending on your preferences. For outside the city, there’s always Wisconsin, but the rest of IL is…meh. Nice suburbs, not nice suburbs, and small towns. But there’s enough to do in the city, and we have two major airports if you want to get out of town. Let me know if you have any specific questions!

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Amazing, thank you! I thiiink – but am not sure – that the office is in Jackson Park? I may be mistaken about the exact office location.

        1. Mouse*

          Jackson Park is on the South Side. I live in Hyde Park, which is the adjacent neighborhood. I really love it! It’s a little expensive because it’s the University of Chicago’s neighborhood, but it’s better than anything you’d find downtown. My 850 sq ft studio (with a giant closet I use as a bedroom, lol) is $920/month. It’s a great neighborhood, with lots of restaurants, four grocery stores, a movie theater, bowling alley, the best independent bookstore ever, and lots of other fun places to explore. Plus, I’m only a few blocks away from the lake and lakeside park! It’s pretty safe, too, because the University employs a huge police force. Jackson Park is also where the Obama Library will be!

          If you have any other questions about that neighborhood in general, let me know. Happy to help!

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            This is so helpful! I have a cozy 1-bedroom with much less square footage than your studio in what sounds like a similar neighborhood, so this gives me an idea of what’s available, thank you.

          2. EddieSherbert*

            Ohhh, if you can end up near the lake, I’d consider that a definite bonus :) there’s some wonderful lakeshore parks!

    2. ThatGirl*

      Hello! I live in the Chicago burbs. I’m fairly familiar with the city although we may have actual city-dwellers around who can be even more helpful.

      Our transit is pretty solid. I’d place it second after NYC. Not every line is 24 hours, but otherwise it’s pretty safe, clean and reliable. We have a train system out to many suburbs as well, although it has its issues (and they all sort of fan out like a spoke, so they’re mostly good for connecting suburb with Chicago Loop and not neighborhoods or adjacent suburbs).

      COL is lower than NYC and SF, probably comparable to Philadelphia area. There are many great neighborhoods for young professionals, and a lot to explore both in the city and around it. A lot of cute suburbs, a few great zoos, lots of architecture, art, culture, GREAT food. Any questions, just ask :)

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Fantastic intel, thanks! COL comparable to Philadelphia will make for an easy transition for me. ;) The transit situation sounds great, which is very good to know, thank you!

        1. ThatGirl*

          The transit is a far cry better than SEPTA, I’ll tell you that (I grew up near Philly). Although Chicago is not as compact as Philly, it’s still pretty walkable.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Former north Chicago suburbs resident here… If you can get to work easily from the transit, and don’t mind a longer commute and possibly walking in Northern winters, the trains are great!
      I hate city driving, so it worked great for me. I drove to Skokie (the northern-most point for the transit) and just parked there and let the train do the rest.

  46. beanie beans*

    All week questions pop up in my head that I think would be great for the Friday thread and then Friday morning comes and I can’t remember what they were. :/

    1. Amber Rose*

      This is me every Friday. I’ve started keeping a little notepad during the week with thoughts and questions I have.

  47. Free Meerkats*

    The other guy on the list still wants to come here! He’s scheduled to start on the 25th.

    Here’s hoping he doesn’t decide to go back to his old job like the last one did. Much less likely, he’s moving from AZ to WA for this job.

  48. Different Handle Because I'm Paranoid :-)*

    I work in higher ed, and have an undergraduate student worker who has been with me for a few months. She generally has a good attitude and does what she’s asked, but I’ve been noticing that she isn’t taking responsibility for a particular set of tasks. Her main job is to provide reception support to people who walk in and callers, but almost every time someone calls or comes in she greets them and then defaults to asking me what to do, often without even really finding out what they want. I have other students I work with and they have varying levels of independence with this, but most will at least try before passing someone off to me. A lot of her questions are things she should know by now. She’s told me before that she lacks confidence, and others have commented on it. I try to find ways to build her up and praise when she does things well, but to be honest, she requires a fair amount of managing because she’ll often misunderstand or halfway complete tasks – not on purpose, but out of lack of thoroughness. Some of that can be chalked up to my newness as a manager and a lack of detail on my part, but over time I’ve gotten pretty detailed about my instructions, and, again, they’re generally sufficient for other students (or at least enough that students will ask if not sure, which means I don’t have to ask them to re-do things). I also admit to being reluctant to manage in the past, so I’m working on being unafraid to ask for things to be different when needed.

    So my question is this: how can I build up her confidence in herself and encourage her to ask me fewer questions about things she knows, especially when I still really need to her ask me questions about things like projects where she might be taking a wrong turn?

    1. Simone R*

      Do you give her the answer, or do you ask her what she thinks? Make her take a guess at least. If she does know and isn’t confident after she’s been correct a number of times you can point to that and encourage her to stop asking.

    2. Susan K*

      First of all, have you mentioned to her that you would like her to try to figure out what to do before she asks you? If not, start with that. Then, when she asks a question about something she should know, ask her, “What do you think you should do?” If she says she doesn’t know, try to prompt her, e.g., “Do you remember what I said last week when someone called about that same topic?” Or, “Do you remember where to look that up?” If she still doesn’t know, give her a little information and try to get her to come up with the rest herself, e.g., “When that woman called last week asking when the llama-hair blankets would be in stock, do you remember that I showed you how to look up the llama-shaving schedule? Remember how to do that? And what did I tell you to do next?”

      It is really hard to do this because it’s usually a lot faster just to give the answer, but if you keep making her work through it, she should eventually learn to do it on her own. If she knows that every time she asks you what to do, you will say, “What do YOU think you should do?” or “Where do you think you can find that information?” she should learn to start asking herself those questions before coming to you.

    3. fposte*

      It sounds like this is somebody who’s behaving like a vine in a world that expects a shrub :-). She needs to start looking to herself for structure. I echo other people’s sentiment that you need to stop bailing her out. I would also focus less on building her confidence than on coaching her to develop strategies and guidelines–they’ll provide her with the confidence.

      I might also meet with her before you implement the new approach to tell her that you’re going to do this and maybe coach her through a dry run or two, hauling in another student assistant to ask a few common reception questions. Encourage her to create checklists, flowcharts, etc. for tasks so that she can tell when they’re done; have her show them to you before she starts and then she can confirm that everything on the checklist is done before calling a task complete.

      1. Victoria, Please*

        What a fantastic simile — vine, shrub. Nothing wrong with vines, grapevines are great; but if you really need a dwarf apple….

        You’ll be doing this student a terrific service if you follow fposte’s advice. There’s nothing like building competence for building confidence.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Adding: Have her start a notebook of FAQ. Write the answer down. She should look in the notebook before asking you, to see if you have already gone over the answer with her.

  49. seashell*

    I had an interview this week that I think went pretty well. Even if I don’t get the job, it was good experience because I haven’t had an interview in 4 years.

    The HR manager did ask me about my current salary at the end of the interview and it really threw me. I’m in Illinois so it’s not illegal to ask (at least not illegal yet?). I did answer her question because I was removed from consideration from a job when I told them my range (turns out they were looking to hire at almost 10k less than my current salary, and I am not a high earner).

    However, I was not prepared for this question because I can’t remember a time when I’ve been asked that during an interview. Should I have answered? Another reason I answered is because I have more experience than the job posting specified, but I work at an association so my pay is below market value. I tried to do research and the range for positions at this large company was very broad, and I’m not willing to take a pay cut.

    1. fposte*

      If you can discuss salary without them anchoring on what you used to make that’s generally preferable, but it’s not the end of the world. Ideally you said, “50k, but that’s a nonprofit salary below market value and I’d expect to make more in a private sector job” rather than just saying “50k” on its own. However, what matters going forward is that you make that point if you get an offer that seems based on your previous salary rather than on what’s appropriate for the job.

      (Thanks for alerting me to the fact that there’s a bill about this in Illinois!)

  50. StartupScrapper*

    Would love some help with this one. One of our executives doesn’t believe in raises. Her philosophy is, people should only get a raise if they’re being promoted into a new job. I think there’s room to give raises (merit, retention, market competitiveness) outside of promotions. Any suggestions as to how I can make this argument would be very much appreciated.

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      No suggestions, but I’ll be following the comments with interest, since I’m working in a similar environment.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If you don’t give raises, then your employees will be below market rate in a few years and they will leave for better paying jobs. Unless it is mandatory for people to move up in the company, then people are being punished for keeping their jobs and doing them well.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This. Your competition *is* giving raises. Why would anyone stay with your employer, knowing they’ll be penalized for liking their job?

    3. TCO*

      Is your company giving cost-of-living adjustments? If not, then your employees’ compensation is actually decreasing over time once inflation is factored in. There’s nothing like backwards salary progression to demoralize people and push them to look elsewhere.

    4. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I just started a new job with a huge public university a few months ago, right before the end of their fiscal year (when they announce the next year’s salaries). Overall I like my job and I was SO excited to join the organization, but I have to say I was shocked when it was announced that the department would only be getting a 1.25% (or something thereabouts) raise, regardless of performance. Granted, this is better than nothing, but it’s absolutely demoralizing. It doesn’t affect me this year because I’m too new to qualify for an annual raise, but I now know with certainty that I will need to be promoted to a different department or move on entirely in order to see a salary increase. And as someone else mentioned, a raise that low will actually be a salary decrease because it doesn’t keep up with inflation, rising rents, etc.

      It’s a bummer because originally I’d pictured this being a very long term position, but knowing there is essentially no hope for a raise immediately turned this, in my mind, into a shorter-term role. I know I’m now the only one here who feels that way – not having the opportunity to earn raises absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, prevents people from staying with an organization over the long term.

    5. Jaydee*

      I guess it depends on the nature of the work. If it is fairly vertical with regular opportunities for people to move up into new roles, it’s less of a problem. Spend 2 years as a Teapot Inspector I at $X salary, then get promoted to Teapot Inspector II at $X + 15%. Then 3 years after that become Lead Teapot Inspector at a salary of $X + 50%. Then become Teapot Inspection Manager at a salary of $2X. It has its problems, but it’s not the worst.

      The bigger problem is with positions that are relatively flat over time. The Teapot Inspections department needs a receptionist. Sure, you can decide that you pay the receptionist $Y and there aren’t raises. But you won’t keep a receptionist for more than a couple of years, and eventually you will need to increase the salary anyway because you won’t be able to hire a decent receptionist for $Y anymore. So then the question is, why hire a new receptionist instead of just giving your current one a raise?

    6. The New Wanderer*

      “No raises outside of promotions? Then I would like a guaranteed promotion every year.”

      No? If they’re really just offering a fixed salary (no COL increases, etc), then I don’t see how that company would expect to retain employees past a year or two unless the starting salary is way higher than market.

      1. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

        Or unless it’s standard for the industry not to give raises, or the company has successfully convinced employees that they should stay out of personal loyalty/loyalty to the mission rather than silly things like being able to make rent. (One of my proudest legacies at my old job – a human-services nonprofit – was getting executive leadership to review salaries so that maybe our staff wouldn’t be competing with our clients for the same subsidized housing and food assistance programs. But also, we had people who’d been there for 20+ years, so go figure.)

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      It’s cheaper to give annual raises than keep replacing and training people when employees leave due to not getting raises.

    8. stitchinthyme*

      My previous company was very small (fewer than 20 people), and the owner didn’t give regular raises; the policy as stated in the employee handbook was that raises were at the sole discretion of the owner. I got one raise in nearly five years of working there, and at least two of my other coworkers left before I did because they also weren’t getting raises. When I left, I told the owner the reason, and he said he’d been just about to give me another raise. I said that every other company I’d ever worked for gives at least some kind of increase, however small, every year, and that I shouldn’t have to threaten to leave in order to get a raise. (I was not the first one to make this argument to him.)

      The point being, you may not be able to convince them. Sometimes the only option is to leave, and hope for the sake of future employees that they learn the lesson when enough people jump ship and they’re constantly having to hire replacements.

    10. Chaordic One*

      In addition to the arguments the others have made, when word of these kind of policies gets out, it makes hiring new employees difficult. It can also lead to speculation that the company is having financial difficulties (which can become a self-fulfilling prophesy if customers believe it).

    11. Zip Zap*

      Cold, hard data. Graphs showing increases in market value for relevant types of jobs. Graphs showing increases in the cost of living for your area. Maybe cover the past ten years and see if you can also find something on projected COL increases. Also find an article or two about how raises correspond with retention and how often they are typically given. Ideally something citing studies with statistics. Good luck!

    12. Specialk9*

      You’re asking what words you can use to convince an unreasonable person to be reasonable? Mmm, you can’t.

  51. subjunctive mood*

    I’m facing the fact that what I thought was an organization dropping me a year ago might actually have been a misunderstanding on my end. I used to volunteer remotely for an online organization, doing tasks that involved a lot of emails to a common mailing list and very little direct communication with my superiors. I enjoyed this part-time volunteer work for a number of years, but last summer I became less reliable due in part to a stressful and draining job situation.

    After moving across the country for a (fortunately much better) job, I saw that I had stopped receiving emails from the organization. I assumed the worst – that they were letting me go as a volunteer without notice – and I was so ashamed that I didn’t follow up with them in any way.

    Now, a full year later, I thought of something. My old college email address stopped working that summer. I had provided the organization with my new email, so it didn’t occur to me at the time that it would be an issue. But I never received actual confirmation that they updated the mailing list. I just checked the date I stopped receiving emails – it’s the exact same date I stopped receiving messages to my college email address.

    So, I probably wasn’t in fact the ghostee, but the ghoster. I feel bad about this – I really appreciated the volunteer staff, and I hate to think about the impression they must have of me. At this point, is there any way I could reach out to apologize without coming across even worse? I’m not trying to use them as a reference or anything like that.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Do you still want to volunteer! Of course you can totally do that! Just say what happened — you moved+your old email stopped working, and now you’re interested in re-connecting.

      1. Leena Wants Cake*

        +1
        As someone who works with volunteers, I would be thrilled if someone who vanished reconnected–particularly someone who had a decent track record from a previous point in time. Anyone who relies on volunteers to get work done understands that life happens and that volunteers often have periods where they need to take a step back or become less communicative. Write to them today, explain about the life changes and the email address and tell them you’d be interested in remaining involved.

  52. Adam*

    Tips for keeping good posture while sitting at a desk all day at work?

    I developed a bad posture habit and was starting to pay for it. I’ve really made an effort to correct the issues recently, but bad habits die hard. I try to make myself stand up and move around every 30 minutes which I’m pretty good about, but for some reason I constantly default to slumping when I’m in my seat and not being mindful about it.

    1. Adam*

      *Note: I’ve considered the possibility of a standing desk, but I’m trying to get out of this job and don’t really want to push for things if I’m going to leave at the earliest opportunity anyways.

    2. Piglet*

      As someone who used to have really bad posture, bad enough my boss mentioned it (nicely) constantly….Make sure your desk is set up ergonomically for starters. If your company is large enough to offer services, definitely sign up, otherwise read up on it. My company recently changed out all of the furniture and I was able to sit in the area with all of the stand-up/customizable desks and it changed my world. We were able to order foot rests, lumbar supports, etc too and it made such a big difference.

      1. Piglet*

        If you don’t have the stand up desk option…at least read into height of monitors/chair/keyboard options, that should make a big difference.

        1. Mari*

          Look up “30 Day Posture makeover” . There is a (paid) app or DVD, plus a bunch of free videos on youtube. I have found that it makes a HUGE difference in how my body feels.

    3. Lawnonymous*

      As someone who also has bad posture (although better than it used to be), lifting weights with a trainer has helped me the most. I tried to correct my posture myself but getting my shoulders back and keeping them there was nearly impossible. It turns out that after years of bad posture some muscles were actually shorter than they should be which makes it easier to have bad posture. (I don’t know much about how it actually works – perhaps someone in the medical or health field could verify/correct me.) I also had an OT once suggest a footstool because it was harder to slouch with your feel elevated – it didn’t work for me but maybe it would for others.

      1. Adam*

        Yeah. I’ve learned recently that sitting for too long, even if your posture is good, can cause muscles to adapt and shorten resulting in unhealthy tightness pretty much everywhere.

        What I’m reading says that intense mobility exercise work and regular massages can help return them to a natural state, but you’ve really got to be on top of it.

    4. It's all Fun and Dev*

      Your comment made me realize my monitors were way too low and causing me to slump – so thank you! I just literally took a few reams of old letterhead we don’t use anymore – boom, appropriately tall monitors. (I’ve always worked in nonprofits that like to play the “we’re too poor to pay for ergonomics” so I’ve used everything from loose paper to empty boxes, lol). It’s especially important when you’re taller than average, like I am…it seems like nothing is designed to fit me.

      1. SarahKay*

        I’ve done exactly the same as you, and just used a ream of paper under each monitor. Despite working for an immensely profitable company we regularly get told to spend every penny as though it were our own and to look for cost savings – which this is, because monitor stands are not that cheap (or maybe I’m a cheapskate…). Also, a ream of paper is just the right height and very stable, so as far as I’m concerned it’s the perfect solution.

  53. Lady Dedlock*

    My first-ever direct report is starting on Monday. Hooray! Two very different questions:

    1. Any tips for making her first day a success?

    2. Is going from having no direct reports to having one sufficient grounds to ask my boss for a raise? (Was debating this with my boyfriend last night; he thinks definitely yes, I think maybe not.)

    1. StartupScrapper*

      Congrats!

      1. A few suggestions:
      – Ask one of your teammembers to take her for coffee or a walk. People are happier when they have friends at work.
      – Give her plenty of reading material. There’s probably going to be some downtime, and this will help her not feel bored.
      – Be clear about expectations for the first 30-60-90 days.

      2. Yes! You’re taking on additional responsiblity and should be compensated.

    2. beanie beans*

      My suggestions might seem like a low bar, but they are informed based on how terrible my company is at treating new employees, so just in case:
      1 – Have a computer already set up for her.
      2 – Be around and available for the first day, ideally the first week. If you can’t be around, make sure someone else is responsible for getting her situated with the basics of the office.
      3 – Introduce her to the other people in your office.
      4 – Have some work for her lined up to help her get familiar with her new job and so she has something to do if you’re busy.

      For your second question – I would wait until you’ve supervised her for a while and have grounds to show that you’ve done a good job.

      1. Susan K*

        +1 to having her computer set up, and also make sure that her account has been activated. I used to work for a company that seemed to be caught completely by surprise every time a new employee started, and it always took a few days before their computer accounts were ready. Also, it would be nice to make sure her desk is stocked with basic office supplies like paperclips, pens, sticky notes, etc., and any job-specific supplies or equipment she’ll need.

        Also, maybe this seems obvious, but I think it goes a long way to greet her warmly with something like, “Welcome to Teapots, Inc.! I’m so glad to have you aboard!” My boss said this when I started my current job, and it was such a nice change from my last job, where new employees were treated as though they were a burden and/or that the company was doing them a favor by giving them a job.

        1. Lady Dedlock*

          Thanks! Our front-office staff are pretty on top of things in terms of setting up people’s computers and making sure they have office supplies. The warm greeting, that I can do!

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      Lots of good suggestions so I’ll just add this: have a plan for lunch. There’s a decent chance she won’t bring her own food (being unfamiliar with the fridge/breakroom situation) and may not be familiar with restaurants in the area. If it turns out she does have lunch plans for the first day, you can cancel or reschedule, but I think the thoughtful thing to do is to plan to take her to lunch. Eating alone on your first day is kind of a rough experience.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Also, have some stationery ready for her, if you provide it. It was really nice when I started this job and got to my desk to find a notebook, post-its, pens and highlighters. Partly because I had stuff I needed and also the fact someone collected it together for me in the first place.

      2. Lady Dedlock*

        I’m glad you said this. I’ve gotten mixed advice about taking her to lunch (some people here seem to think the first day might be too busy/we don’t want to overwhelm her). But I think I’ll at least offer, in a low-pressure kind of way.

        2. hermit crab*

          I took my direct report out for a casual lunch one-on-one on her first day (and made it clear that it’d be my treat). It was her first day in a professional office job and my first day as a manager, and I think we both appreciated a chance to get to know each other a bit and not have to Do Important Work Things (or be “on” in front of the whole team) at the same time.

        3. Zip Zap*

          I think taking a new person to lunch is nice. You could invite another person or two so she gets to know other people in the office.

    4. Been There, Done That*

      –Please be clear on what she’s supposed to do and realize she’ll have questions and perhaps want extra contact at first to get acclimated. This doesn’t mean she’ll want her hand held. If some areas of her job are still being nailed down, please don’t leave her in limbo.
      –If you ask someone else to help train her, please make sure the trainer understands that being asked to train isn’t being asked to supervise her.

  54. em2mb*

    Would you notice if a coworker had a reasonably distinctive pair of shoes in several colors? Would it strike you as weird or odd? I’ve (finally!) found a ballet flat I love, but it has scalloped edges and a cutout pattern I’d definitely notice if, say, someone had it in yellow and navy and nude. I think I’m overly observant of these sorts of things, so I don’t have a great sense of other people’s sensitivity to them.

    1. Kiki*

      I would notice, but fashion is a hobby of mine and I notice details like that. People who aren’t interested in clothing probably wouldn’t. And I wouldn’t judge you for it or think it odd.

      1. Squeeble*

        Same–I notice this kind of stuff all the time, but I’d just think “Oh, she must really love those shoes” and leave it at that.

        I have a very comfy pair of flats that I would love to wear more often, but they’re bright red with a bow on the top, which feels like too much to wear every day!

    2. Allison*

      Wouldn’t strike me as weird, I think I’d be jealous that this person found a shoe that a) works for them and b) comes in a variety of colors.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I notice, but not in a negative way. A prior coworker had literal blue suede shoes and they were so cool.

      My previous work shoes were teal and hot pink because runners don’t come in reasonable colors anymore, and literally nobody noticed, so I think the number of people who do pay attention is small.

    5. Manders*

      If I noticed at all, I’d think it was cool that they found a versatile shoe. Fair warning, though, all my shoes with cutout patterns seem to break quickly if I wear them frequently, so make sure you’re buying something durable if you’re investing in 3 or 4 pairs.

      1. em2mb*

        I’m super hard on shoes … I have wide toes and narrow heels and a clumsy gait and even well-made brands my friends swear last for years die premature deaths on my feet. I’ve actually had weirdly good luck with a few of the cheap brands from Amazon. This are only $20-30 a pair, so I feel like if I get a season out of them, I’m happy!

    6. Temperance*

      I would notice, but I wouldn’t care. Then again, I do the same thing, and I would love to meet a kindred spirit, lol.

        1. Temperance*

          I honestly have embraced it! It’s hard to find clothing and shoes that I both like and find flattering, so I’ll buy it in every color if I like the colors. I’m short and curvy with a huge rack, so I’ve had to really just embrace it.

    7. Lady Dedlock*

      I would probably notice, but wouldn’t feel negatively about it. I do the same thing myself! I have about five pairs of Repetto ballet flats (and have worn and retired many over the years), so probably pe0ple at work think of me as the ballet flat girl. That’s fine by me.

    8. Teapot Librarian*

      I’m wearing a second color of my new favorite shoes today. The only thing keeping me from buying them in more colors is that they’re pretty expensive.

    9. Rusty Shackelford*

      If I did happen to notice, I definitely wouldn’t think it was weird. I buy multiples of things I love.

    10. Hunger Games Summer*

      I might notice too but would not think it is weird at all – I do the same thing with shoes and even sweaters/shirts. If I find something I like I get a smattering of colors.

      1. hermit crab*

        Yeah, I do this with distinctive shirts/tops, and I’m pretty sure that my fashionable coworkers notice — but I’m also pretty sure that they don’t judge me or anything. Personally, I’m just so relieved to have something I like to wear! I literally have four of the same blouse in different colors. I’m thinking about adding a fifth so that I have a long-sleeved shirt to wear every day of the week this winter.

      2. Parenthetically*

        I have the same v-neck fitted tshirt in about 12 colors, and the same H&M camisole (IT’S SO LONG AND PERFECT) in about 10 colors. My wardrobe is basically adult Garanimals, and I’ve literally never gotten a comment on it that wasn’t, “Cute outfit!”

    11. Lady Jay*

      I have the same pair of shoes in multiple colors, though they’re less distinctive (mine are plain ballet flats). I love them and wear them out regularly (and buy new ones). I say go for it! It is not weird.

    12. Future Analyst*

      I have several sets of the same shoes in different colors (and pants, and shirts, haha). Go for it! Life is short, wear shoes you like!!

    13. Student*

      I don’t even know what my own shoes look like unless I’m currently looking at them. I couldn’t recall any shoes owned by any co-worker, even if they were distinct, more than 5-10 minutes after seeing them.

      Unless they are shoes with lights, or shoes that make noise. Shoes with lights are the worst invention by mankind since the hydrogen bomb (mild exaggeration).

    14. Jules the First*

      I have the same pair of ballet flats in eight different colours. Yes, people notice, but in a kind of “Jules’ signature shoe” way rather than a “weird” way. Go for it!

    16. Been There, Done That*

      I’d probably notice and I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s definitely not weird. I once found a pair of ballet flats I loved that actually FIT WELL and regret I didn’t buy the same in a couple of other colors.

  55. Grateful Mentee*

    I’ve been part of an official mentorship program though my workplace that will be ending on 9/30. My mentor has been AWESOME. Between her help identifying my career interests and skills, and the excellent advice on this website, I am now under consideration for two positions within the organization that both fit my long-term career goals, and are significant promotions. I probably won’t hear back from either before the mentorship program ends, but even if I am not offered either, I am really grateful for her help and guidance.

    The mentorship program is voluntary, and mentors don’t receive any sort of extra compensation for their participation. My mentor is in a role that is much more senior than mine (I am mid-level), but she is in a different department and does not manage me or work with my department directly. I know that tradition is that you don’t gift up, but she has taken a lot of her time during regular working hours to meet with me and act as my career coach without any additional compensation. I’m really grateful and would like to get her a little gift to go with the thank you note I was planning on sending. Would this be inappropriate since she is senior to me, even though we don’t work together?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Don’t do it. She clearly didn’t do it for compensation, and your gratitude is going to mean a lot more than chocolate or gift cards or whatever.

    2. Yorick*

      You don’t need to, unless you think she’s done more than the typical mentor stuff. If you feel like you should do more than a note, maybe take her for coffee or lunch instead of getting a gift.

  56. Amber Rose*

    It occurs to me that new-job anxiety is pretty typical, but expresses itself in some pretty weird ways. I think imposter syndrome is the more frequent version, but husband has been driving me nuts with his own brand of it all week: despite the $10K a year raise, which I don’t think I’m wrong in thinking is significant, he is positive he will either not bring home any extra money, or will bring home less. And he will not. Stop. Talking about it. And he spends ages with a calculator trying to estimate how much he’ll be making in take home pay.

    I don’t really want to sit and have a math battle with him because I don’t want to get sucked into this particular pit of quicksand. It’s all irrelevant because it’s done now. The job starts in October. It’ll be good for him and his career, he’s worked his behind off for this, and I’m half mad with jealousy but that’s pretty balanced out with pride and excitement and love and all that nice gooey stuff.

    Anyways. I can only talk about him, because the sum total of my accomplishments this week has been burning out two monitors, burning an image into an LCD screen which shouldn’t be possible, and frying the VGA port on my tower. I am the Anti-AI, I destroy electronics by existing near them. When the robots invade, come hang out, we’ll have a candle-lit bubble of safety.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Partly taxes (he this weird idea that they figure out taxes across brackets and then like, average them or something), and partly pension plan deductions, which are admittedly a good chunk of his pay, in the hundreds of dollars. But they have been this whole time, and I don’t see them taking that much more than they take now.

        I think it’s just stress, not actual concern. He’s latched onto this idea as a form of catastrophism. Hopefully he gets over it.

        1. Jaydee*

          Sometimes there’s just nothing you can say to convince them and you have to let them see for themselves. My husband gets on these weird nervous ruminations and there’s just nothing you can say to convince him it will be okay until it is. He also has very weird ideas about taxes, and I have finally set a rule that when I do our taxes he is not allowed in the room with me unless I have asked him to come in or he is bringing me food (or coffee!), letting me know there is food available, or asking me when I will be at a good point to stop and take a food-related break.

          In your situation, I would stick to phrases like “Well, we will just have to see what your first couple of paychecks look like.” If I thought it was a more realistic concern, I might go as far as “If your take-home pay goes down a little that will be okay because we have some wiggle-room in our budget. At least the extra pension contributions will be good to force us to save for retirement.”

        2. Natalie*

          Someone used a phrase over at Captain Awkward a while back: solid anxiety vs liquid anxiety. Solid anxiety is about an actual thing that can/will eventually resolve, but liquid anxiety just pours into whatever empty container is available and takes the shape of that container.

          1. Bryce*

            Man, I’ve had liquid anxiety days. I describe it as a thunderstorm of random worry inside of me looking for places to ground itself.

    2. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I had the exact same anxiety when I started my new job. I think it stemmed from getting a lower salary than I was expecting – though it was still several K more than I was making previously, and entailed a move to an area with a much lower COL.
      It has helped me tremendously to keep a careful budget to see exactly how much extra we have at the end of the month. I think part of my anxiety was fear of the unknown because EVERYTHING was changing, not just my job (that’s what moving across the country will do to ya!) but as I’ve been settling into the work and my new community, I’ve been feeling much better.

      Good luck and congratulations to him on the new role!

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Sometimes people just latch on to something, no matter how irrational it is. You, however, don’t have to listen to it. Do something elsewhere, or send him to do something. It’s Friday. A full weekend of strenuous yard work may allow him to break the cycle. And get him out of your hair in the process.

      If you don’t have a yard, send him my way. I’ve got plenty of stuff that could be done.

      1. Been There, Done That*

        Or hand him the vaccuum cleaner and the iron. The shopping list for the mall. Download him a ticket to the movies. Weekends are full of possibilities!

    4. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

      If it makes you feel any better about being an AI-destroyer, I was banned from ever using any hand-held scanners at my previous job. I’d touch them and they’d run out of battery. This happened even when they’d just had fresh batteries put in/scanners had just been fully charged. At a different job any time I went near a training computer they’d freeze and we’d need to restart them. I’ve heard it comes from being an artist, so at least theoretically I have that…

      (all of this info puts my handle in a very different perspective…)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You can go into with him, “Okay so if you bring home the same money or less how will you handle that? What is a good plan for this?”

      Or you can stay outside the conversation and say things like “I don’t see how dwelling on this helps you. What is your goal by dwelling on this, what do you hope to gain?”

      Buuut…. you know sometimes with fear the best thing to do is just in a low, sweet voice say, “It will be okay, hon. You will see. It will be okay.” Fears that are not based on logic do not HAVE to be answered logically. Sometimes using a comforting tone does more to help than anything else.

    6. Jessi*

      maybe you could say ‘babe, you’ve been talking about this non-stop for weeks, I can’t take anymore. I’m going to set a timer for 5m and then once it goes off I don’t want to hear about it any more for today’. download some talking books, or get up and go for a walk around the block if he keeps at it after the timer has gone off

  57. Allison*

    Scenario: you’re looking for a coworker, you go to their desk, they’re not there, so you ask someone at a nearby desk “do you know where Joe is?” and that person says they have no idea. Do you expect this person to drop what they’re doing to find this person, or at least give you an idea of where they might be, or do you accept that they really have no idea and move along?

    I ask because I encounter it often – people ask me where so and so is, I tell them I don’t know (just because I sit near them doesn’t mean I know their schedule), and rather than say “all right” and walk away, they just stand there and stare at me with this confused expression, so maybe I’m supposed to assist in finding these sought-after colleagues.

    1. Kiki*

      The same thing happens to me all the time. I share an office with another coworker and sometimes she has to go elsewhere on campus, runs an errand, or is just in the bathroom. If people ask me to pass along a message to her when she gets back then that’s fine, but sometimes they’ll ask if I can call/text her cell, go next door and see if she’s in the other building, etc even when it’s clear that I’m busy. Also, I’m not her keeper, I’m not gonna text her and possibly interrupt a meeting to summon her.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        In the case where they want to pass along a message, or are otherwise just standing there seemingly waiting for help, I would just say “You could leave a note, here’s a post-it” or similar. I wouldn’t want to take responsibility for passing along a message myself, since I’m likely to forget if it’s not written down.

    2. zapateria la bailarina*

      I accept that they don’t know and move along. If I’m asking someone at a nearby desk if they know where someone is, it’s because maybe that person hasn’t even been in today and I’m searching in vain. I wouldn’t expect anyone to assist in the search.

    3. beanie beans*

      Based on the first paragraph I thought you were the one expecting people to drop what they’re doing to help. Was already formulating a polite way of saying “If they don’t know, leave them alone, they aren’t their secretary!” :)

      1. Allison*

        That’s just it, when people expect me to know where people are, or locate them, it feels like being treated like a secretary. But I was thinking “hold up, maybe this is a normal office function people routinely expect of each other regardless of known or perceived role.”

        My new coworker did this this morning. We were introduced yesterday and someone told him what I did, yet this morning he asked “do you know where ____ is?” and when I said “no idea” he stared at me until I clarified “she and I have different job functions, and I’m a researcher, I’m not an admin” and he went “oh, okay” but I know it sounds bad when I say that to people.

        I need a cube move, I’ve actually heard my area of the office referred to as the HR reception area because most of the people who work here work in administrative roles for the department.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I think it probably is helpful to clarify that you don’t actually work together — what you said would only sound bad if you said it in a way that shows clearly that you think your work is more important than an admin’s.

    4. Murphy*

      If they’re in a position to check the person’s calendar (such as when someone asks me if I happened to know where my boss is) then I might ask them to do that, but otherwise I would just assume they don’t know and move on.

      I had a stranger come in to the office and ask me pretty insistently where someone was, and was incredulous that I didn’t know and couldn’t check his calendar. I didn’t even work with this person at all, I just sat near his office. Of course I don’t have access to his calendar.

    5. Amber Rose*

      I go find someone else to ask. Or I might have a follow up question like “do you know if they left for the day” but usually I just go hunting.

    6. Kelly L.*

      I’ve threatened to get a Magic 8 Ball for just this situation. “Where is Joe?” “Signs unclear.”

      Alternately, I need Molly Weasley’s clock. Joe is in Mortal Peril.

    7. katamia*

      Unless there’s something special about their job and Joe’s job that means there’s a very quick way for them to find out where Joe is, I would never expect them to actually help me look for Joe. That’s weird.

    8. Myrin*

      Absolutely not! That’s just weird!

      (And for the record, I don’t think what you said to your new coworker sounds bad at all. It’s somewhat “explain-y”, though, like you somehow think it’s reasonable for him to even think about asking you to look for your coworker. I’d suggest just asking “Something else I can help you with?” if you encounter the strange staring again, which gives them an out if they, for example, were just spacing out thinking about how to go about looking for Target Coworker next, or did indeed want to ask something else but felt awkward when they realised the conversation with you was already over. Or they’ll come right out then and want you to look for coworker in which case you can go *blink blink* “Why?”.)

    9. fposte*

      Depends on the office configuration and if I know the office configuration. IOW, most of our shared space is shared workflow, so yes, I’d think somebody’d know. I therefore might mistakenly expect somebody in a shared space who *doesn’t* share workflow to know. But I’d get over it if told they don’t know.

    10. Argh!*

      Is it the same people all the time?

      My snarky advice is to start giving crazy answers like “He’s meeting with his meth dealer” or “He had a grand mal seizure and EMS took him away”

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I wouldn’t use the second one. I say that because I had a colleague actually go awol for this exact reason.

    11. Hunger Games Summer*

      I feel for you – I work next to two employees who assist others with tasks quite a bit. So often people stop by my area looking for them. It happens so often I don’t even offer up info unless asked. When asked where they are if I happen to actually know I answer – other wise I just ask the person if they would like me to give a heads up to my coworkers someone is looking for them. I find that the offer to let them know reduces people requesting me to dig into it more deeply.

      1. Hunger Games Summer*

        As a side note – I almost prefer when someone asks me at least if they are looking for my coworkers. The weirder interaction is when the walk over to my aisle – look at me coworkers’ desks – look back at me – look back at their desks – and then just run away

    12. Tris Prior*

      That’s kind of ridiculous. I would assume the person doesn’t know and move on, not expect them to go find him/her!

      Oddly, I’ve had this happen a lot when I’ve vended at art shows. Customers can get REALLY salty when they ask “do you know where {vendor in the tent next to me} is” and I tell them, “Um, I’m not sure, maybe they went to the bathroom or to get food?” “WELL! Do you know when they’ll be back?” Geez, lady, I don’t even KNOW the vendor next to me. Not my turn to watch her! One day, I’ll actually say that!

    13. Jaydee*

      No, you’re not supposed to go find the person. Although in the same situation I do find giving whatever info you have to be helpful. Instead of saying you have no idea where Jane is, try saying “I don’t know where she is, but she was here this morning” or “No, she left about an hour ago with a binder and her coffee so I’m guessing she’s in meetings today” or “I saw her talking to Fergus earlier but I have no idea where she is now.” Not that it’s your job to keep track of her, but it conveys that you *want* to be helpful (even if you don’t really).

      That said, if people still stand around like they think you should be helping them find Jane, try asking “Is there something else you need from me?”

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Am assuming it’s the same person over and over.
      In that case, I would just say, “I often get asked where you are. What would you like me to tell people as a standard answer?”
      Or maybe she could get a little white board and put her next ETA on the board, then set the board on her desk.

    15. Zip Zap*

      Do you think they might misunderstand your job or your relationship with that co-worker? In all the larger offices where I’ve worked, that has been common.

  58. Eric*

    I’m about 5 years out of college and in the workforce. I’ve been having a problem recently where I think I should know how to figure everything out by now and never have to ask people for help.

    But that’s not true, of course. I get a lot done and my coworkers are happy with me, but sometimes I run into a problem which I can’t figure out. When that happens, I end up bashing my head against the wall in frustration for way too long, and I keep putting off asking my boss or a senior colleague because I’m worried that they’ll wonder why I didn’t ask earlier.

    I know I can’t be the only person who’s done this. How have you guys handled it?

    1. Birdbrain*

      I get this too! It’s really hard to ask for help, but maybe you would feel better about it if you remember that most people actually like being asked for advice because it shows you recognize their experience and expertise (as long as you aren’t asking the same question multiple times). You could focus on the fact that you’re asking someone else because it’s a new problem: you’re not asking about something you do every day. (I assume!) “I haven’t come across this particular situation before: do you have any experience wrangling these llamas? Or is there a guidance document that I can refer to?”

      And if you’re worried that they will judge you for not asking sooner, mention that you tried to work it out yourself first. I’m sure it depends on the workplace, but I don’t know anyone who can figure everything out on their own (even if they could, asking is usually faster!).

    2. Michael Carmichael*

      I supervise people in your position, and I think the best way to approach it is to say, Hey, I’m trying to [insert task/procedure here] and haven’t been able to figure it out using [resources]. Can you help me, or can you point me in the right direction?

      I find that the biggest challenge for me being asked these questions is that folks tend to not get to the point quickly. I don’t need the entire history of your quest for answers, but I would like to know that you have at least tried to figure it out on your own.

      I wouldn’t wonder why people didn’t ask earlier, unless it was a time-sensitive task and it’s a week later. More frequently, I’m annoyed that the resources are pretty easy to find and the person didn’t really look for them before asking. So if you’re really putting some effort into finding answers, your question won’t be annoying.

      Also, no one ever has all the answers and never has to ask for help, which I’m sure you’re aware of, but you may need to remind yourself of this from time to time!

      1. Eric*

        Thank you! I like this approach and I will be using it in the future.

        TBH, I’m pretty sure it stems from an old job where a coworker who didn’t like me got promoted to be my manager. He did a lot of stuff to try and “manage me out” of that job. One specific thing was that if I had to ask him anything, he’d ask me how long I’d been there, and then say something like “You’ve been working here for a year and a half, and you still can’t figure that out? Say that or I’m not helping you.” A couple of times he made me do this in front of the rest of our team.

        That sucked but it was the past. The present and near future should be focused on correcting this behavior.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Two ideas I have used:

      One is I make a resource list this is a list of who I call or email for what problem.

      The second thing is my own boss set a time limit of 15 minutes. She noticed that we either figure something out right away or it’s hours. No in-between. We cannot afford to sink hours into any one problem.

  59. DaniCalifornia*

    It’s deadline day here for our clients who own a business. And we have clients who are bringing in their documents to prepare for them TODAY. They’ve had 8 months to bring their stuff in. I don’t understand how they actually generate income from others.

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      *solidarity fist bump*
      Not a lot of latecomers this time, but I hear you, they’re always annoying.

      What do you do? Do you turn them away? We remind our clients throughout the year to bring us stuff and the ones who ignore us, we try our best to prepare everything but we explicitly say that we’re not responsible for any penalties etc due to late filing

    2. stuff*

      As my mom once said about an old workplace, “we make money in spite of ourselves…”

      Over a decade later, I’ve found myself thinking that about some of the places I worked for.

    3. Been There, Done That*

      Been there, done that sighhhhh.

      A lack of planning on client’s part doesn’t constitute an emergency on our part. HOWEVER, if we don’t treat client’s lack of planning like an emergency, client might complain to upper management and give us the additional work of processing a complaint, even though the actual complaint is that client failed to plan.

      Cue Simon & Garfunkel: Tryin’ to keep the customer satisfied…

  60. NaoNao*

    I passed the phone screen! I had an interview with the hiring manager at Dream Job/Company and I feel like it went well. Asked the “magic question” of course and got a “good question!” out of it. He is former military so he was a bit hard to read and a bit deadpan, but that’s probably a good thing: no misleading candidates with “I love you! When can you start?” and then never calling or emailing again. Heh.
    I was asked pretty general questions that have me feeling this is a bit of a lower level job or skill level than is ideal (combined with his note that he was “very excited to find my resume in the stack”) but, it’s such an amazing company and mission, and would allow me to relo to my Dream State so….even if it’s slightly junior to what I want, if the total package is cool, it’s a yes.
    The next step is an in person interview (panel style, I’ll be giving a presentation) and I’m waiting to hear on that. Usually (usually!!) if I can make it through the phone screen and hiring manager interview, I’ll make it to the in person or panel, but this company is so competitive that it’s a very 50/50 feeling for me at this point.
    He said the whole process is about a month–they have more interviews to conduct and they may do a final phone screen (“death match” type deal) and then move on to the final round. Eek.
    Very nervous BUT whatever happens is supposed to happen. It’s been a week now and I emailed my thank you note on Tuesday of this week, got a sweet thank you from the HR rep but she noted “hang tight, I’ll let you know as soon as I hear anything” so a very polite and professional hint to not follow up any further. I don’t take that as a negative, but I do take that as ‘ball is in their court now’.

  61. Teapot Librarian*

    This week in “General Hoarder”–
    Things were actually going pretty well! I had Hoarder Employee review a policy that I thought he was going to have huge problems with and he was fine with it; I gave him an answer of “no, we can’t do X” where X was something he wanted to do as a favor to a former official of Teapot and Llama Library, LLC, and he was fine with that as well. I assigned a project to an intern that HE wanted to be a part of, so the three of us talked about it on Wednesday and HE didn’t have anything to add beyond my description/instructions.
    Then yesterday happened. Another employee (Diligent Employee) found three boxes of about 200 teapots that need to be refiled in their correct teapot boxes. They were all from 2004-2006, taken out by HE (initials on the paperwork) and never returned. DE has asked HE repeatedly over the last decade if he knew where those teapots were, only to be rebuffed with a shrug and “I dunno.”
    Also yesterday HE sent me, on my request, our most up to date inventory spreadsheets. Note that they are *supposed* to be on our Sharepoint site, but the versions on Sharepoint hadn’t been updated in quite some time so I knew they weren’t the most up to date. That’s another two issues right there but I’ll save them for another Friday. About a year ago, maybe even 18 months ago, I reformatted our inventory spreadsheets because they were objectively formatted stupidly. (Think two rows per item, or more because the description would be spread across multiple rows instead of using the “wrap text” function in Excel or instead of making the column wider. Two rows per item = can’t sort the spreadsheet; can’t upload it to a database; can’t do all sorts of things.) I told HE to use the new format. He did for a while, but then he had a problem with the row height and couldn’t read things so instead of doing any problem solving, he just went back to the old format. So now he’s going to “transfer his changes” to the new format but what a freaking waste of time. Plus, the risk of error is so incredibly huge. HUGE. Because now we have spreadsheet 1 plus changes and spreadsheet 2 plus changes, but spreadsheet 1 does not equal spreadsheet 2.
    THEN! This one is the most minor but it’s just another thing. This morning another employee tells me that HE asked him yesterday to help with a very large shipment of teapots that is being delivered next week. On it’s own this is not a problem and in fact is what I expected. Sort of. Except. HE said that he needs help on the one particular day because HE IS GOING TO BE OUT OF THE OFFICE. HE’s the one who scheduled the delivery!! Why did he schedule the delivery for a day he’s going to be out of the office?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Does he want the job or no?
      Anyway, sounds like you have to directly say that he needs to schedule deliveries for days he will be there. I’d seriously consider getting the delivery under cover (inside away from weather) and saving for him for the next day.

  62. ScoutFinch*

    My day job (higher education IT in the US) is undergoing some major changes over the next 18 months or so. My position will not exist afterwards, but I am told that we will all move to more “business analyst” roles. Not sure how that will turn out. I have decided to wait and see for now. There may be separation $ or other benefits if the positions do not materialize.

    In the meantime, I need to make some extra $.

    I believe others have posted about inbound customer service positions that can be worked form home. I am comfortable in IT, but do not know of many part-time IT-type gigs. I need to work evening/some weekend hours. I would rather not do retail, but I will if it comes to that.

    Ideas, anyone? Appreciate any feedback.

    1. Kiki*

      Commenting on this so I can follow. I also need additional income, and at-home inbound customer service work would be perfect.

      Also this may not help you directly ScoutFinch, but Writer Access is good for people who are interested in making extra money and can write. I have a client there who I write magazine articles for, but there’s marketing copy and all sorts of other writing work there.

  63. Red Reader*

    I lead a team of teapot assemblers – mostly internal, but we also have a half-dozen or so vendor assemblers who work for a third party that we sub-contract some assembly work out to. If a teapot doesn’t have its assembly specifics in the file, it’s supposed to go into a particular queue so a specialist can track down the assembly specifics. We found out a couple months back that the vendors weren’t doing that — they’d just open up the file, see no assembly info, and close the file and put it back into the regular work queue. We read them the riot act on that.

    Well, turns out that now, the vendors are taking teapots without assembly specifics and, instead of sending them to the specialist, just slapping a cardboard handle on there with scotch tape and marking them as “done,” then the teapot quality review team gets them flagged as issues and has to basically re-assemble the teapot from scratch, including tracking down the assembly directions. Except that because the vendors marked them as “done” they get paid for it.

    This is being handled higher up the org chart than me, but dang, this cheeses me off.

  64. Triplestep*

    I accepted a job offer a week ago, and was told by the recruiter that the hiring manager would be in touch with me. A week later and I have not yet heard from the hiring manager. I still have two hurdles to cross – a background check and a physical. The physical is not scheduled ’til next week after which I am planning to give notice at my current job. These dates were all worked out with the in-house recruiter, including my orientation date.

    I feel odd about the hiring manger not being in touch in some kind of a “welcome aboard!” type of way. She may just be waiting ’til I’ve cleared all my hurdles, but I don’t feel comfortable giving notice until I hear from her.

    Thoughts?

      1. Triplestep*

        Yeah, I guess I will do that next week. Thanks for chiming in here. I just didn’t know if I my expectations were off.

    2. Zip Zap*

      I would follow up with the recruiter. It could be something simple like her having entered your phone number incorrectly and left a message with the wrong person, or just being busy, or waiting until the physical and background check clear.

  65. Macedon*

    Not a particularly exciting quandary here, but opinions appreciated:

    I’m in the fortunate position of being able to turn down a job offer — I had a great interaction with the hiring manger, but after some effort on their part, they were only able to raise their salary offer to the level of my current compensation, and below my personal minimum to make the move. Unfortunately, that wouldn’t work out for me financially .

    I was hoping to keep my rejection polite, but vague, without mentioning that compensation is a large part of why I’m unable to join them. But I’m concerned that a generic refusal might read as insincere, and I’d really like to keep an open door there in the future. I realise a refusal that doesn’t exactly say much will read a little guarded regardless of what I do, but is there any kind of language that you’d find particularly kind when turning down an offer in this sort of situation?

    1. Darury*

      My opinion would be to straightforward with them that the compensation issue is why you can’t take the position. If it were due to “chemistry” issues, i.e., you didn’t feel comfortable with the team, etc, I could see making it more vague, but I’m pretty sure any company is going to realize there’s a certain level of mercenary approach on the risk vs reward of a new position.

      1. Macedon*

        I can definitely see your point. I’ll mull over a formulation. I might be overcomplicating things in my approach.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I don’t have a lot of experience, but I think it might be worth it to say you really liked the country, etc., but the compensation was not adequate. It might be worthwhile feedback for them, especially if they hear this more than once as they try to fill this position.

      1. Macedon*

        That’s fair — though I’d be surprised if they didn’t take a clue of that from our initial negotiation…

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Can you say more about why you don’t want to mention compensation? It’s a very reasonable justification for not taking a position!

      I’ve never had someone turn down a job offer in a way that would make me not consider them again, so I think as long as you are basically polite and professional, you should be fine here. Though you could say something like, “I really enjoyed meeting with you and learning about the position and your company. I wish you all the best and hope that we find another opportunity to collaborate in the future.”

      1. Macedon*

        Their initial offer was actually substantially below my current level, and the hiring manager went to bat to raise it — I’m hesitant to mention it in the refusal because I don’t want it to translate as ingratitude, considering the tremendous amount of good will he showed.

        1. Floundering Mander*

          Why not just say that? You really appreciate that he made a personal effort to make it worth your while, but after taking everything into consideration (changing commute, whatever) it just doesn’t make financial sense for you.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          But he needs to know this, so he can tell people it’s losing them good candidates. You could say this but also acknowledge that you appreciate him trying.

          1. Wheezy Weasel*

            Ditto. When I have to bring something to my boss for a change, I almost always get better results by showing concrete losses (budget, time, reputation) for the current method.

            ‘Boss, Macedon was our best candidate by far, we spent $500 on her expenses and $1500 in staff time in her interviews, and she wasn’t able to take the position because our salary was 20% below her acceptable rate/30% below market. Are we prepared for these type of candidates to apply and decline if we can’t meet the salary?’

        3. BRR*

          It’s not ingratitude though, nobody should be shocked that you won’t leave your job for the same salary. I think Floundering Mander had a great point in saying that you appreciate the effort he took to increase the offer.

  66. Aster*

    I would like to hear stories from anyone who has successfully transitioned a partial remote job into a total remote job.

    I currently work remotely two days per week, and very much like what I do. In 2-3 years, I will need to move across the country for my spouse’s job. I will job search if I have to, but I think it’s feasible that I could do my current job fully remotely if I can convince the right people. Advice or anecdotes appreciated.

    1. Pwyll*

      A friend of mine recently swung this when her husband was transferred across the country. One thing she did was try to plan a clear, major deliverable she could submit while she was away. So, she basically planned a trip to visit family, swung it by the boss that she needed to go out of state but would still be working, and still submitted the deliverable with the same quality. That way, she had clear examples to point to in her pitch to be fully remote.

    2. Never Nicky*

      I went from full time in office to full time remote two years ago. I was in a long distance (for the UK) relationship. I didn’t handle raising the topic well (got blurted out somewhat) but after that it went well.
      I put together a massive list of all the job stuff I did and whether it could be done remotely – all but one task could.
      I considered the equipment I would need (fairly minimal – laptop, screen, external hard drive, printer/scanner) and infrastructure (phone line, high speed broadband, both already in place) and drew up a budget – this alone was less that recruitment costs for a new person!
      Worked on a plan for how to communicate and keep in touch with the office – pretty easy as it’s the same time zone. I keep regular office hours and we use conference calls and Skype and I visit the office once a month for a couple of days.
      I think a couple of things swung it on top of those practicalities:
      1. The first two years of my being at this organisation I was also studying for a degree so boss knew I was organised, self motivated and used to managing time effectively (also evidenced by what I did in the office but my degree completion proved an office environment wasn’t necessary)
      2. I had a huge amount of institutional knowledge, solid relationships internally and externally and a difficult to replicate skill set (not impossible, I’m not irreplaceable but recruitment could have been a long process and in the meantime important stuff needs doing)
      3. Boss knew I had space with a closeable door, reasons to stop work at 5 and friends and a life in my new location already so that I would have a work/life balance and wouldn’t be isolated eith nothing but work to focus on. A happy employee is a productive employee!

      Two years on and it’s going really well. I have produced some award winning work, my colleagues have been really supportive (a hard to please one told me “it’s like you’re still here but you’re just not speaking in the office”) and although I miss some small stuff I still feel an integral part of the team and a key member of staff as the organisation grows and develops.

      With a new cloud based phone system imminent I think that’s going to really help too as calls can be routed as if I am just another extension number.

  67. squids*

    Hiring a student assistant for the year, and just interviewed two amazing candidates. Telling one of them “no” is going to be the hardest thing I have to do this month.

    Does including things like “you were an excellent candidate” and “please apply again in future” in a rejection letter help? Or would it just be frustrating to receive?

    1. Morning Glory*

      I don’t think it would be frustrating, as long as it seemed genuine.

      Also – not sure if this applies to you, but when we have an exceptional intern candidate that doesn’t quite match our specific team’s needs we may send their resume to another team if we know they are looking for something similar. So if you work for a big org hiring for multiple similar positions, and you felt comfortable, you could offer to pass their resume along to another department hiring for a student assistant, if the candidate is interested.

    2. fposte*

      I hire student assistants all the time, and my pool tends to be great, so I feel your pain. One of the things I do is tell students that were a near miss that I’ll mention them as strong to other people hiring. Then I do it, and several times that’s meant they get another good job.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      One of the nicest rejections I ever got was a phone call. The director of the position told me they thought I was great and just went with someone whose background included more of the type of work they were doing. He asked me to please keep in touch because he thought I was a great candidate. Then his boss called and asked if he could send my resume around to his colleagues, and I got hired somewhere else because of it.

      Even if you don’t want to make a phone call, just be sincere and personal. Tell them you’d like to keep them in mind for future positions, and ask if it’s ok to pass their name along to your colleagues who might need someone with their skills.

  68. Pwyll*

    Happy Friday, all!

    We’re overwhelmed at work recently, and after a few months of begging they’re letting me hire 2 employees. Problem (opportunity?) is, they need to be hired in Europe, whereas I will remain in the US. I’ve got the hiring aspect of things down thanks to the recruiters on the ground in the EU. They’ll be fairly junior analysts from one of the Nordic countries, and will have an on-site supervisor (who won’t have any say or experience with their work, and in some cases won’t have authorization to even view their work).

    Any tips and tricks out there from anyone who has remotely managed workers in another country that you’ve never visited?

    1. Anecdata*

      Is there any chance of getting the budget for at least a short trip – maybe for a team planning session? Not directly managing, but I have worked on many dispersed team/multi-country projects, and getting everyone face-to-face has always been worth it. We put in place distance communication strategies (a slack channel, a shared dashboard, a weekly update round-robin, whatever – you’ll figure out what works for your team and projects) – but they work so much better /after/ we’ve had at least 1 in person meeting.

      It also builds up the shared goodwill you’ll need when the skype connection keeps dropping.

  69. Callalily*

    I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around accepting a job with potential travel when I’ve always worked in positions with no travel or overtime.

    I would love (and need) to work with this firm to achieve my CPA designation.

    But after my interview where they commented that during the summer audits that I’d need to travel out of town – sometimes flying out for 3-4 days – I actually cried when I got home.

    Part of it is a fear of change (my life is comfy) and fear my husband won’t be able to handle the responsibilities (currently 110% on me) of caring for our cat and 2 dogs in event of my absence.

    This could be an amazing opportunity and I should be getting an initial offer either today or Monday (where I’ve asked for them to give me an idea of typical travel in a year) but it is scary. It doesn’t help my mom is miserable about the opportunity thinking I owe my toxic employer to stay for years when they can’t help me.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation? How did you adjust to travel?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Disclaimer: I only twice like 2-3 times a year for work (and also like 2-3 times a year for pleasure), and I love traveling. So I might not be the best person to offer advice!

      But. I think I had been on a plane like 3 times in my life before I finished college? So it was nerve-wracking flying by myself as an adult, and I gt stressed fairly easily… So give yourself a lot of extra time just to help your nerves; I’ve ended up siting at my gate for almost like 2 hours because I was worried about security taking forever. If possible (and if I’m reading right these trips would only be 3-4 days long) just do a carry on and don’t check luggage. And it honestly becomes routine faster than you’d think!

      For the pet thing… I FEEL YOU! MY boyfriend is not an animal person – he likes my cat and dog and helps with them buttttt would never have adopted them on his own. I usually have other people watch the critters when I’m gone, even if he’s around (though he’s bonded with the cat now and will watch the cat happily haha).

      Do you have friends or family that would take the dogs and enjoy having them? Even if you had to split them up? (Ex: I used to have an older dog along with my current one – my mom took the old one and a friend took the puppy when I was out of town) Is a dog walker, dog sitter, or doggy daycare an option during the day (to take pressure off him AND tire them out more)? Can you also hire a cat-sitter who does the kitty chores while you’re gone (ideally during the hours husband works and is not home)?

    3. agmat*

      Not trying to be rude (and this does come from someone who does not ask my parents for job advice) – your mom’s feelings about your job is irrelevant. You don’t owe your current employer anything other than doing the best job you can now and giving them appropriate notice of leaving.

      Can you husband truly not handle the pets, or do you really just take it all on yourself because it’s your routine?

      If you both really think he can’t handle it (watering, feeding, cleaning litter box, taking dogs for walks…seriously, for just a few days!) then hire a sitter/walker.

      You sound excited about this opportunity! Don’t let others (or your perception of how they’ll handle it) cloud your thinking.

      1. Callalily*

        I’ve been taking it all on myself for years – he just didn’t live up to my standards for caring for them (would often delay walks/food until more convenient for him, not when the dogs needed it). He probably could adapt but I guess we can only see how it goes… I know it’ll be hard to go from doing nothing to being their lifeline for a few days.

        I’m thinking about slowly throwing pet responsibilities at him so it is less of a burden when he is needed.

        1. Natalie*

          Obviously I don’t know your animals so they may in fact need that strict of a schedule, but I do encourage you to take a moment to really interrogate yourself on whether or not the pet care needed to be so rigid that only you could do it. As evidenced by your current quandary with your job, that kind of needless inflexibility can end up unintentionally trapping you.

    4. NaoNao*

      Well, first, if I read it correctly, your mom is miserable about your new job? No offense to her, but she doesn’t have to work at either of them! Maybe stop mentioning it to her, or sit her down and get to the root of this “Mom, maybe I haven’t made it crystal clear to you why I’m looking for a new job. (Details). Is there a reason it’s important for you to encourage me to stay at a job where x, y, and z are occurring? Is there something I’m missing here?”
      If she mentions mumble mumble loyalty, respond “I do appreciate loyalty, and it’s one of my core values. You’ve taught me well on that front. I need you to understand that for me, loyalty is earned and kept. I’m not loyal to a company no matter what happens, or what changes. That would be foolish and self-destructive. I’m sure you can see that?” Maybe explain that the days of 30 years of service ending in a pension and a gold watch are over.
      It’s YOUR LIFE. Living it for others will never work. If mom is miserable, she’s gonna be miserable no matter what. I have one of those too. Outdated ideas, seems to have a problem “I’m just saying!” with everything, mumble mumble in MY day, and so on. I’ve learned that while I would love her approval, it doesn’t break me to not have it.

      For the dog/cat: there’s a service I think called Bark? it’s “uber for your dog walking” and maybe look into that? With the cats, get automatic feeders, and set up some cat toys, beds, scratchers, and trees if you haven’t already. Also a self-cleaning litter box might be in order.

      Can you set it up so that husband only has to do simple chores–such as letting pooch out 2 times a day just in the yard, and filling the kibble? Is there a “chore exchange” program you can agree on like “I’ll trim the hedges if you take care of the animals for the next 5 days” type deal?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I wouldn’t go to the trouble of trying to convert your mom. I’d say “thanks, I’ll take that under consideration” and then just STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR JOB TO HER.

      2. It's all Fun and Dev*

        Just wanted to add that there’s a service called Rover (dot) com, where you can browse profiles and see the rates, reviews, etc of potential dog walkers/cat sitters. There’s a small fee but you have peace of mind because most (all?) of the sitters are background checked.

        Or you could always look into hiring a high school/college kid to come by once a day, or whatever it is that you need done.

      3. Callalily*

        I’ve resolved to ignoring her comments for now until I have a written offer in hand that I can actually decide on. But even then, it isn’t her stuck in this miserable workplace.

        We live in a VERY small community so any pet sitters/walkers are all random local people who rely on word-of-mouth. It isn’t in my budget and I’m not sure how much I’d trust them over my husband.

        I wish I could simplify it but we live in a yard-less apartment – so they actually need a good walking. They usually get a 30 minute walk at the crack of dawn (his job allows him to sleep until noon), then after supper (while he is at work) and then once before bed. With meal times he is either working or sleeping – so he’d have to be very disciplined to be waking himself up to walk and feed them and coming straight home from work.

        I’m hoping maybe gradually putting responsibilities on him will help… normally I take care of it all.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          His job *allows* him to sleep until noon, or his work schedule *requires* him to sleep until noon? Because if it’s A, that means you’re considering rejecting a job that would be very good for both of you because he might lose the privilege of sleeping late every day. Either way, have you discussed this with him? Are you sure he’s really unable and unwilling to take care of the animals on his own occasionally, or are you assuming?

          1. Student*

            I think telling him it’s important to you that he occasionally care for the animals so you can travel in your job – because it means you can take a much more pleasant job, and because the animals are important to you – might help frame for him what this is about. Some guys see a real difference between “please do the normal adult thing here because, it’s normal adult thing” and “please do this thing because it is important to me, somebody you care about”.

            Give him some realistic idea of how often he’d be expected to do this and how long it’d last when you have the discussion, too, so he doesn’t mentally fill in the details with something extreme.

            Also, back off your unrealistic ideas about what your pets need. It’s a couple days. They won’t die if their meals are at different times than normal. You might be able to buy timed feeders to make things like that easier. Nobody will die if the pets mess in the house once because your husband didn’t take them on walks at the usual time of day – he’ll learn what the dogs need from that, and he’ll manage to clean it up, and everyone will be fine in the end. You can gate them into areas of the house where it’s easier to clean up after them, if really necessary.

            I hate to be that guy, but I’ll also say that if your husband is so deeply incapable of caring for your pets, you probably shouldn’t have these pets and this relationship simultaneously. Pets are a big commitment. It should be something you do together. Beyond work travel, what would happen if you had to be in the hospital for a couple of days, or had to travel for other reasons – like a funeral, family emergency, etc.? Things come up, and if your partner can’t muddle through for a bit without you, then it’s a bad idea.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Perhaps he can tweak the schedule to fit his schedule.
          If my husband told me I had to get up in the middle of my normal sleep time to care for the animals because he wanted to take this particular job, I would be ticked.
          Life changes like this that impact the partner require both people to buy into the change.

          It’s an ask not a demand.
          If he does not want to alter his schedule then ask him to help you find plan b.

    5. Non-Prophet*

      My experience with our external auditors is that the fieldwork is scheduled with lots of notice (for us, the date of fieldwork is spelled out in the engagement letter). Will having several months of notice make it easier for you and your husband to make sure the pets are cared for while you’re away?

      If you’re hesitant about travel, could you look into positions at another public accounting firm that works with more regional clients?

      1. Callalily*

        I’m hoping that if there is sufficient notice (and not constant travel in summer months) that we should manage it and prepare…

        Unfortunately this is the only local firm that does audits, which is needed for my designation.

        1. WellRed*

          Its good for your career and the travel is only in the summer? Maybe your husband needs a chance to show he can handle this. Maybe you need to learn to let go a bit too. Add in that you are in a toxic job?

  70. SQL Coder Cat*

    I need help from experienced managers!

    I am in a non-management coding and analyst position, but due to some urgent and high priority projects a temporary coding specialist, “Fergus” has been brought in to assist me. I did not get any input in the selection process and I have no management power over him aside from assigning him coding projects.

    On Fergus’ first day, as we were sitting down going over the work he would be doing, he matter-of-fact-ly brought up that he was on the autism spectrum. To be honest, I was a bit shocked- not because of the idea that he was on the spectrum, but by the fact that he told me, since it’s none of my business. I just nodded and brought the subject back to the work he would be doing.

    It’s been about four weeks, and I’m about at the end of my rope. Fergus is a brilliant coder and I’ve been learning a lot from him about advanced functions I’ve never had to use before. So what’s the problem?

    He doesn’t give me what I ask for.

    Example: The first project I gave him was a finance report, because I had a very detailed report plan that outlined exactly what was needed. There was a lot of very specific information needed, and it needed to be filtered and formatted in very specific ways, all of which were listed in the document and which we reviewed in person. He gave me some of the needed information, omitted some, added unnecessary information, and formatted it so that the information appeared on the screen and could not be easily transferred to an Excel spreadsheet (which is what was requested). When I sat down with him to go over the report he’d prepared and compare it to the report plan, I asked him why he hadn’t followed the plan. His answer: “This made more sense to me.” I tried to go over the plan again with him, trying to figure out the issue, and sent it back to him for correction. It took three more attempts to get what I had requested.

    Since then we’ve been following a pattern: I give him increasingly detailed written plans. We sit down to review the plan after he’s read it and he seems to understand exactly what I need. He then completes something that doesn’t give all the requested information, or where he’s made a chance to the selection criteria that results in the data being incorrect. We review the differences and he says he’ll make the changes I need, but it still takes three or four more drafts for him to do what I asked.

    I’ve tried to get at the root of why he’s not giving me what he asked, but his response is always the same: This makes more sense to me. I’ve asked him repeatedly to let me know if he has questions on why I’m requesting something be done a certain way before making changes to the plan, but he doesn’t. I’m unsure if this has anything to do with his spectrum issues, if it’s a male coder dominance thing (I’m a woman), or if it’s an age thing (he’s about five years older than me, but I look about a decade younger than my real age). Regardless of the cause, I need it to stop!

    How do I get Fergus on board with providing me what I asked for, or at least discussing it with me before doing something different so he doesn’t waste both our time? I’ve discussed it with our manager and she’s out of ideas as well.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Rather than looking at his work when he’s done, would it be possible to check it before he finishes it? Redirecting him halfway into a report rather than after he’s finished could at least save a little time.

      But yeah, I’d be tearing my hair out at this point. I don’t know what you can do with someone who doesn’t understand DON’T CHANGE THIS, EVEN IF THE CHANGES MAKE MORE SENSE TO YOU.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        That’s an idea. Maybe I can have him send me his code at the end of each day so I can look it over and redirect him before he gets too far off target.

    2. Argh!*

      “This makes more sense to me. I’ve asked him repeatedly to let me know if he has questions on why I’m requesting something be done a certain way before making changes to the plan, but he doesn’t.”

      It’s time to go to the boss or HR. If you are technically Fergus’s boss, you need to be starting a disciplinary process. You need to explain to Fergus that he is not paid to create coffee pots – he is paid to create tea pots, and will be disciplined if there are no tea pots at the end of the day, and eventually possibly lose his job.

      A disability is not an excuse for not doing the job. ADA accommodations are to help people do the job, not to excuse them from doing a job correctly.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Unfortunately, I’m don’t have any kind of management authority over him- he reports to my boss, and his job duties are ‘whatever Coder Cat asks you to do’. And my manager doesn’t want to get into the idea of replacing him because he’s a temp and we’ve only got him for another month or so, and she doesn’t have the time to go through another round of searching when we need to hit these deadlines.

        1. Anono-me*

          Is keeping ‘Does His Own Thing Fergus’ actually more time efficient than replacing him with someone who would actually produce the correct products?

          How many work hours is Fergus using to create nothing?

          How many work hours are you spending trying to get Fergus to produce useful product?

          How much time would it take to replace Fergus and bring the new person up to speed?

        2. Been There, Done That*

          Does your boss have some time to sit down in a conversation with Fergus and support you in telling him the instructions are what the company needs, whether they “make sense” to him or not?

    3. deesse877*

      My suggestion would be to be super-direct: “you may not change the procedure. Your preference does not matter.” Then explain that the reason he does not get to pick the procedure is that he doesn’t have the whole picture, and that doing things your way will help him to learn about the larger issues. In other words, first set a limit and then open the possibility of him learning more.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Re-reading, it sounds like you’re doing a lot of asking and explaining and not much *telling* (unless I’m missing something). Have you actually said “No matter what makes more sense to YOU, this is how we need the report formatted, so this is how you must do it?”

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Yes, the very first time this happened, I told him “I know that the requests I make won’t always seem logical without the detailed knowledge of our processes, but I need you to follow the report plans I give you exactly as written. If you have questions you can always ask, but you CANNOT make any changes without prior approval.” One of the most useful things this site has drilled into my head is that you have to be crystal clear when behavior is unacceptable. I’ve repeated this at least once a week since, but it just don’t seem to stick.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Now I wonder if this has been an issue for him before, and he’s decided/been told his inability to follow directions is because he’s on the autism spectrum. And him telling you that was his way of “excusing” what he knew was going to happen.

          So, here’s what I’d do. Tell him every time you give him an assignment. “Fergus, I need this report in the format I gave you. Do not change it.” And then, instead of reminding him every week, remind him every morning. “Are you still using the form I gave you? Can I see your work?” It’s annoying, but it might keep him in line for a month.

    5. NW Mossy*

      It sounds like the key piece he’s missing is that reports are prepared for an audience – they’re going somewhere, to someone, who is using the information to do something. The audience decides what’s needed, because it’s for them, not Fergus.

      In your situation, I’d recommend meeting with the audience (assuming it’s not you; if it is, skip this part) and verifying the “why” behind their requested data/format. With that info in hand, the conversation with Fergus can go like this:

      “Fergus, Finance uses this report to make their budgeting decisions for the upcoming quarter. They tell us what information they want and need to make those decisions, not the other way around. When you change the format and the content, you’re producing something they don’t need and can’t use for the intended purpose.

      Part of being in this role is producing things that other people value, and you have to be able to listen closely to what they want and deliver it, even if what they want doesn’t make sense to you. They do a different job, so it’s completely understandable that they’d want things to do their job that aren’t what you’d want to do yours.

      Going forward, I need you to follow the plan/specifications that you’re given and not make changes to them without explicit approval from me. Can you commit to doing that?”

    6. Rick Tq*

      Is Fergus saving you time on completing the project or costing you time? If he is still saving you time you may have to grin and bear it for another month.

      If he is costing you time with all the rework then have him removed from your project.

      Autism spectrum isn’t an excuse for frank insubordination, and not following repeated explicit instructions about report formats is just that.

    7. Been There, Done That*

      I’m very glad you posted about this because I’m in a very similar ongoing situation at work. PCness and workplace favoritism/cliquishness make it very difficult to ask for help from above.

  71. Mouse*

    I’m asking a question for my FH. He’s a few years “out of college”, but never technically graduated because he owes the university some money. He met all the requirements, but he has to pay about 10k before they’ll let him graduate officially, give him his diploma, etc. He works in the environmental/conservation field, which is a pretty tough field full of part time work but short on full time jobs. He’s had a few really great part time jobs, has several years of experience now, and is ready to move on to the full time stuff, but those part time jobs haven’t let him save enough to pay off that massive 10k bill (though he is making payments- it used to be 12k). We’ve looked into loans, but between his part time jobs and my internship, no reputable bank wants to lend us that much money. So, he’s in a holding pattern, but he wants to start applying. What’s the best way to phrase his situation to an employer looking for someone with a Bachelor’s degree? Should it be addressed on the initial application? Interview? Only pre-background check? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. CheeryO*

      I’m also in that field. Unfortunately, I think he’s going to have a hard time with state/federal jobs because they tend to be sticklers for degrees, even for positions that SHOULD have a heavier focus on practical experience/skills. I’m sure this varies, but in my state, you wouldn’t even be able to get on the list for consideration without a bachelor’s degree in hand. My position requires an M.S., and they rejected my application the first time because the degree was not officially conferred yet, even though I had finished all my classes and passed my comprehensive exam. He might have better luck in the private sector. Either way, I’d have him address it in the application/resume – “classwork completed, degree conferral pending,” or something along those lines.

      I feel for him – I’m on the engineering side of the field, which isn’t as bad, but I’ve watched some insanely hard working, talented biologists/ecologists/etc. get stuck in part-time positions pretty much permanently. It’s rough out there, and things are bound to get worse before they get better in this political climate. :(

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      He can probably list it on his resume. A lot of people aren’t going to bother verifying it. If they say they want to, he can explain that he’s unable to provide transcripts because of a financial situation.

    3. FormerOP*

      My husband also has an all-but-the-piece-of paper situation, but sounds like very different circumstances. Unfortunately, I have got to say that your FH should not * lie * on his resume. There are just too many ways that it can go wrong. Finding a way to include attending that university should be fine, and in some fields, mentioning coursework could also be useful. There have been discussions on AAM about including school-related things on a resume, so I would check those. Just don’t try to airbrush the truth, once it comes out (which it probably will) it could end up with FH getting fired. Not worth the risk/damage to reputation.

    4. Jennifer*

      I am a university graduation person but not his college’s (presumably), but I smell a rat here. I have not heard of a college forbidding someone who is otherwise dobe with requirements from graduating only because they owe money. The graduation rate would plummet and then peopke could not get jobs in order to pay back their money. My college will prevent you from receiving the diploma/transcripts if you owe, but you can still get a degree awarded letter proving your degree.

      1. Jennifer*

        Okay, so autocorrect on the phone is fun. Now I am home with actual keyboard, so here goes.

        I don’t know if your fiance is lying to you about his lack of degree, or if he is confused on how graduation works, or is mixing up “I can’t have diploma because I owe money” with being unable to graduate. I would recommend him contacting his dean’s office about this. If he is genuinely 100% done with school, he should (unless his school is really weird in a way I’ve never heard of) be able to file to graduate in their next filing period and eventually get degree awarded on his record, even if he owes $10k and thus cannot get his diploma. At the very least I think it should be possible for him to get degree awarded by the school so if someone calls up to investigate if he has a degree, it would be verified. And yes, places who care if you have one will check. And like I said above, there should be another way to prove graduation without having paid all your money, though I don’t know if any jobs will accept them.

        If wherever he applies will only accept a transcript/printed diploma handed to them, then I concur that your fiance is SOL, though. We used to have our Big Boss call up really rigid schools and tell them why it takes our large school so long to degree award, so please don’t penalize our students for not being able to make deadlines that are impossible for them to make, and he never got anywhere with any of them.

        If he’s not done with his degree for other reasons, he needs to look into doing whatever to finish up, but that’s on him. I don’t think it’d be worth anyone’s time to apply for jobs that require the degree if he just doesn’t have it.

        1. FormerOP*

          I had a friend in college who did not get his diploma because of unpaid charges on his account. They let him walk at graduation but he was not able to get his diploma until he paid. He was a rich kid and his parents didn’t pay his tuition to “teach him a lesson.” Not sure if he finally got them to write a check or if he had to figure something out on his own.

      2. Mouse*

        Well, there’s some backstory that may be relevant. He took a long time to get all his credits, and he ran out of financial aid/federal loan eligibility. So he took the last two classes at full price, which in retrospect was Not Smart, and ended up being a little less than 12k. As I understand it, they don’t technically count those credits until he pays for them. So it’s not like he has a loan that he’s repaying, it’s a direct charge from the university. I don’t know if that makes anything different. It’s also a pretty darn snotty/pretentious school (search my comments on this page and you’ll figure it out :) ).

      3. CheeryO*

        Really? I’m pretty sure my state college wouldn’t let people register for classes or graduate if they had outstanding parking tickets, let alone several grand in unpaid registration fees.

        1. Anecdata*

          Yeah, I think this is pretty common for colleges in the US – you don’t get your diploma if you have unpaid library fees, campus police fines, missing lab materials…

          It doesn’t apply, of course, to loans, that are meant to be paid back after graduation.

  72. Super Anon*

    I have a friend who has a boss who is what I’d consider to be verbally abusive. This week my friend’s boss told her that none of her co-workers liked her, that she wasted everyone’s time, and that she was incompetent and lazy. My friend’s boss is very close to the head of HR, and so my friend is afraid if she complains to HR that she will face retaliation from her boss (and there have been instances where she’s seen similar things happen). My friend is stuck where she is given the limited number of positions in her field, and while she is looking for another job, it could take another year or two before she finds something So any coping strategies? All i feel like I can do is offer sympathy for her situation and encourage her to try and limit the opportunities she presents her boss to belittle her (which I suspect is very challenging).

    1. Argh!*

      Wow am I that friend?

      Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s amazing how many supervisors in environments where employees have few rights will abuse their seemingly unlimited power.

      And yes, going to HR is a bad idea. Getting out may be the only option.

      1. Super Anon*

        I think my friend realizes that leaving is the only long-term option. It’s just that leaving is going to take time. I don’t know what she can do to minimize the type of verbal abuse she is receiving on what seems to now be on a weekly basis.

          1. Super Anon*

            Sadly, it’s not. If she leaves her current field, it’s highly unlikely she will be able to find another job in it. And, she loves her job, so I suspect if she had to give up her career in this area it would be pretty soul crushing.

    2. Jennifer*

      My coping strategy is reminding myself that I’ll end up homeless if I quit this job, so I have to endure this one indefinitely unless I get lucky. Sad but true–reminding myself that it could be a lot worse if I was out of work is what was helping me to stick with my job when I was being bullied/otherwise yelled at frequently.

    3. Phoenix Programmer*

      I grew up in a verbally and physically abusive household. I endured by tuning them out. I would think of my theoretical happy future which I am glad to say is the actual now. Quash any thoughts that you won’t get out. That is giving boss too much power.

    4. Anecdata*

      Ick – this sounds really tough on your friend, and I’m sorry.

      One thing that might help for coping is being explicit about why she’s choosing to stay : Stay in this field I like, be a more competitive (employed in the field) candidate for better posts, financial stability, learn a lot about how NOT to manage :), etc; and decide whether that outweighs the bad. Sometimes I schedule regular reflections for myself where I re-decide every 3 months (staying in a bad job 3 months feels a lot more manageable than 1-2 years).

      If at all possible, can she identify an alternative, an exit plan to keep in her back pocket if staying is no longer worth it? Even if it’s something like, if this is really not working out, I will quit, and become a natl. parks RV host, and then my savings would last X months – as specific as possible, so it feels like a real choice. Depending on circumstances & personal obligations, some people can have really limited options here, but for me just knowing that I have something an emergency exit available has really helped me stick out a bad place.

    5. Been There, Done That*

      I empathize with your friend. Her boss and mine sound like twins separated from birth.

      One thing that might help her cope is knowing she has people on her side (like you!) even if they can’t help w/ her job situation.

      I’m in somewhat the same situation and have been looking, especially as my boss has made it a cinch I won’t be able to move into another position at my company. I do have more flexibility than your friend does. When things get really bad and scary, I remind myself that this isn’t the only job in this major city. I know that if, worst case, my boss fires me just because she can, I can earn a paycheck somewhere else, even if it’s not a Dream Job.

  73. AnnaleighUK*

    So my housemate works in a pretty toxic office, but she’s leaving at the end of the month for a new, much better job in the same field with nicer people and a better environment – the Glassdoor reviews are excellent and she loved the place when she interviewed, so yay for her.

    Anyway, since she handed her notice in, her boss has literally tripled her workload. She’s one of these people who is really reliable and dependable, so she’s doing it without much complaint but it’s really taking a toll on her health, both mental and physical. She’s eating less, sleeping less and nearly crashed her car last night on her way home cuz she almost fell asleep at the wheel.

    Is there anything I can do to help her? I can’t stop her boss from doing what he’s done and I can’t help her workload but has anyone got any suggestions for how to help her in other ways for the next two weeks till she leaves? The three of us who share with her have already taken over her laundry and other chores. I’m tempted to start packing her lunches for her because she’s been living off pitta bread and dip this past week…

    I hate seeing her like this. It’s not fair, not in her last two weeks of a job. Any ideas?

    2. fposte*

      Can you offer the viewpoint that you can be reliable and dependable without doing everything somebody tells you to do? There’s no reason for her not to go back to her boss and say “I won’t be able to accomplish the recent tasks as well as the preparation for transition, so I’m going to prioritize tasks X, Y, Z,” and then go home at a reasonable hour. That’s a skill that will serve her lifelong, not just in this situation.

  74. Museumlover*

    I work at a nonprofit that utilizes volunteers to facilitate programs, including programs I plan. I recently recruited my own volunteers after the volunteer department failed to do so. The volunteer department now wants me to send over my contacts information, so they can reach out and use him to get more volunteers. I asked my contact if he is ok with me sharing his information a few days ago and he has yet to respond. I have not passed along his information yet. Am I in the wrong here? Should I feel guilty for not passing on information that isn’t really mine to share?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, you’re not wrong at all. I’d tell the volunteer department that you’ll give this guy *their* information, and he can contact them if he chooses to. (And only because, since you work with these people, it might be impolitic to say “um, no, full stop.”)

  75. This is not a drill*

    I’ve been thinking about going back to school for a teaching degree and then being an international school teacher. I was wondering if anyone knows about international school whose brain I could pick or if there are any good forums or websites for researching the job and talking with other teachers.

    1. Manders*

      Just a heads up, a lot of international schools take people without teaching degrees. Which countries were you thinking of teaching in?

      This is something I’m also considering a few years down the road, so I’d love to hear people’s experiences too. In my case, I’ll be in Japan and will be living with my husband who’s also a teacher.

      1. This is not a drill*

        Do they really? Most of my preliminary research (and to be fair I haven’t done a lot says that if you want to teach anything other than ESL you need a teacher certification in your home country). I’m actually Canadian so that makes researching a little harder for me.

        1. Manders*

          Oops, I didn’t realize you don’t want to teach ESL. In that case, requirements may be different. Everyone I know who taught abroad was doing ESL at high school level or above.

      2. Nonymous*

        Oh, I would be curious to know how to find an international school that takes people without teaching degrees! I have nearly ten years’ experience teaching freshmen-level courses (community college) and am interested in switching into international teaching . . . but when I’ve reached out to organizations, they say I need the certification.

        1. Manders*

          I might have mixed up my terms here–I was thinking of teachers who travel to a different country to teach English as a second language, but I just remembered you can stay within your own country and teach at an international school.

          I know loads of people who taught ESL in East Asia, none of whom have an MEd; I don’t know anyone who teaches at an international school in their own country, although my husband teaches at a private high school which takes international students and he doesn’t have an MEd. He has lots of teaching experience and multiple advanced degrees but no teaching degree, so he can work for local private schools, but not local public schools. This is a weird quirk of my specific state’s laws so I have no idea how things might be different in Canada.

    2. katamia*

      What subject(s) do you want to teach? If it’s ESL, I recommend checking out Dave’s ESL Cafe (link in a followup comment) and the Reddit TEFL community, which is actually pretty decent.

      2. This is not a drill*

        I’m still considering it, but I’m interested in ESL and elementary education (well, really grades 4-9 but depending on the split I prefer K-6 over 7-12).

    3. Mal the Student(Round 2!)*

      Do you have a degree now? I see you’re Canadian, so I’m not sure how Canada does their teaching certificates, but in some US states you can test for the specific subject you want to teach without doing a separate teaching degree or student teaching program.
      Also, for anyone else reading this who may want to teach, check your state requirements for a teaching license.
      I’m in Missouri and substitute teachers need 60 credit hours – YES. No degree, just 60 credit hours(plus background check, obviously ;) – counter than to just across the river in Kansas where subs need a 4 year degree and valid teaching license – wait, what? Welcome to the US, where education is a free for all and there are no rules lol!
      Also in Missouri you can go the traditional route of college and student teaching OR you can use any degree and test for a subject specific license(math, history, etc.), sans student teaching.
      All this to say, research your state, teaching certificates can be easier to acquire than you may think!

      1. This is not a drill*

        I have a degree in business, Canada’s pretty regulated and the fastest I could do a degree is 11 months. Most after-degree certification programs are 2 years but I’ve found a few that are 10 or 11 months. But I don’t know if I’ll be happy as a teacher and I guess I’m nervous to leave a job I know (even if I don’t like it very much) and drop 15k on another degree for a job I might hate.

        1. School Psych*

          Have you thought about alternative teacher certification programs? Essentially you have a paid teaching job while you get your degree. This is how I got my teaching degree and about 90 percent of my tuition costs were covered by my employer because I agreed to teach in a hard to staff subject area(high school special-education) for 2 years. We had a few people in my program who were from outside the US, but I am not sure what additional things they had to do to get work permits. I am no longer a teacher, but I did look into working at international schools when I was looking for other things to do with my teaching degree. It is highly competitive and most schools look for experienced, certified teachers. Many of the private, international schools are part of a consortium that holds job fairs state side and in various countries to recruit teachers. I had a professor in grad school who worked as a counselor at international schools and she got hired when she was already in the country by going to various schools and marketing herself. Her husband worked in international business, so she was already moving to these countries. Schools are very selective about who they hire in their home countries because they pay the teachers to relocate and pay for their transportation home each school year.

      2. Julianne*

        In some places, you get neighboring school districts with such varied requirements for subs! On paper, my district requires subs to have a four year degree, a valid teaching license, and complete an online course (about how to sub? IDK.), but all of our neighboring districts only require X number of college credits (60 seems to be the most popular number).

    4. Traveling Teacher*

      To get your feet wet: most local schools are in desperate need of volunteers. With so many two parent households and education budgets shrinking, most teachers would be incredibly grateful to have you help out in the classroom. There’s a lot of behind the scenes work that you could help out with, too, if you can’t go in during school hours. The school environment would be different, but children have the same needs the world over, in my experience. Also, as you’re Canadian, you have a great opportunity to get some valuable hands-on experience in French immersion/bilingual classrooms! It’s so important for future teachers to know about all of the organizational tasks that go in to being a teacher–you have to juggle lesson planning, grading, materials prep (particularly demanding for the younger ones that you want to work with). In my education courses, a course devoted to organization would have been invaluable. International schools, though, often have a lot more leeway with curriculum and don’t always need to do the same level of government reporting, which is a huge, huge blessing!

      If you’re confident in your teaching skills and general knowledge: you can do some online tutoring to get a feel for what it’s like to teach someone something–there are students worldwide, you can give a few “trial” classes to make it low-risk for them and you, and all you need is an internet connection and a good microphone.

      If you want to jump in with both feet first: If you want to teach internationally and also know some French (I see you’re Canadian, so I’m guessing yes), then an excellent way for you to test this out (if you are 30 years old or younger!) is the Teach English Abroad in France program. You apply through your embassy/consulate, and the program exists in most English speaking countries around the world. I had thought that I would only be happy teaching high school, but I did the program, taught the littles (6yo to 11yo), and I LOVED it! The requirements are a minimum of two years of completed university-level ed (some people do the program as a gap year/to take language classes/to take teaching certification classes and prep for the CAPES French teaching certification). One year contract, renewable only once, it’s 12 hours of teaching per week, so you get paid roughly 800 euros/month, which gives you the right to a hefty amount of housing assistance in France, usually. I know it might not be the right program for you, but I worked with a lot of others in your situation who weren’t sure if teaching was a good fit. Also, you can sign up for going to teach in the DOM/TOM territories, and you’re pretty much guaranteed to get accepted and spend a year or two on one of the islands! Even if you didn’t decide to continue to pursue education, being able to say that you went and adapted to a new place/culture and worked there is invaluable.

      Also, many international schools in France–from my own and my friends’ experience!–have a certain certification level that is “required” but the French also have a strange habit of brushing those aside if they can’t find anyone with the paper qualifications, particularly the private schools. If you have a four year degree, that can usually outweigh other requirements.

      On a personal note, just know that it’s a wonderful job, but the dream doesn’t always match the reality. I’m lucky enough to have got my foot in the door through the above program and then stayed long term in various other positions. Contracts are often one year/one term, though, and many people experience job insecurity because of increasingly small budgets. I’m lucky enough to ride out the lean periods because I’m married to someone with a steady income. This can, of course, vary widely, and if you have any kind of science or math qualification, you will stand head and shoulders above most candidates for teaching at the elementary level. The other part that’s difficult is the changing environment. I live in an area where people go and come frequently; I become close friends with someone only to have them leave the next year, and the fifth year of this occurring was personally very difficult for me. BUT! That being said, it’s a wonderful type of job, and you can move around with a great deal of freedom if you’re good at it (from business sector to children to private lessons…). But really, try before you buy because teaching isn’t always for everyone–good luck!

      1. This is not a drill*

        Wow, thanks a lot for your post. It was really informative. Do you teach only English or also other subjects? And are you pretty fixed in France or have you taught in other places?

  76. Unhappy Intern*

    Hi, everyone!

    I’m an intern at a company, and I (should) work mostly with project management, the finance side of it. I’m not in the US, so our internships are usually six, twelve or twenty-four month contracts. I was hired in July, my contract is six months long. But I’m really frustrated, as the info I was given about the position and the actual work was misleading and, in many ways, untrue. My supervisor rarely (if ever) gives me something to do, and when it happens it’s without any training or directions. I find stuff to do on my own, and it’s what kept me occupied, but it’s boring, meaningless work — think going over and sorting contracts from 1999. There’s a ton of work to do in our department, but my supervisor would rather be swamped than let an intern do any of it — she thinks all interns are unable to do any tasks that directly impact the company, and she’s outspoken about it. She’s not very nice — I had some health issues and she was worried about the fact that it’d probably happen again, rather than worried about, you know, me; she makes mean comments and disguises them as jokes; she never admits her mistakes and has even thrown me under the bus a couple of times.

    So I started looking for other internships. I got to the final round of interviews at a big, great company. I wasn’t hired because they didn’t feel it was the right work/area for me, it was in HR and they think I’d thrive more in project management. But they liked me a lot and even asked what other areas I’d be interested in, and said (more than once) that I’d be a perfect fit for the company and they’d love to have me work for them as soon as there’s a suitable opening.

    I’m considering leaving my current internship and focusing on school, but a part of me really wants to stick it out until October to do it. Should I just quit? I’d like to quit when I find something new, so I can start a new internship and have a good excuse for why I’m leaving, but I can’t find anything.

    I’m unhappy where I am, to the point where my depression and anxiety are getting worse, and I was great until I started — everything was under control. But I’m afraid if I quit, I won’t find anything else, and other companies will see it as a red flag that I left so soon.

    1. Temperance*

      Not knowing where you’re located, I can’t really speak to the potential ramifications here, but I will say that I personally have supervised interns, and it’s a lot of work. It can be more work to hand off a project to an intern than it is to do it yourself.

      I have had an intern who went above and beyond to be awful, including doing something for the firm that could have gotten us sued. (I asked him to create a spreadsheet using Excel with certain information, using our document management program. He gave me attitude about Excel not being efficient, I told him to use it anyway, and he went behind my back and did a Google Doc. With private client information.) maybe your boss went through a similar experience? For a while after that, I was on top of my interns like white on rice.

      1. Unhappy Intern*

        I’m in South America, if it helps.

        I understand that supervising interns is a lot of a work — it must be tough and it surely takes a lot of time, but she’s not my supervisor in the written contract, it’s another lady. I tried to treat the other lady as such, but it soon became very clear I wasn’t supposed to. I don’t think she dislikes having an intern, I do everything she doesn’t want to, and she clearly enjoys it. But she doesn’t seem interested in training me, or looping me in re: whatever is happening at the company, or even giving me tasks that are relevant to my major. She seems to not want to put in the work, you know?

        I also understand how one might be cautious to give interns big responsibilities, so I wouldn’t complain if I spent the first few weeks gradually getting more important work, but it just hasn’t happened. I already have access to/deal with very sensitive information, so I’m just… confused, I guess?

        Thanks for your comment!

    2. Pwyll*

      I’m sorry to hear this, Intern. A lot of companies and managers really don’t understand the work involved in a successful internship program, and the impact of that usually falls on the interns themselves, unfortunately.

      In deciding whether to leave, a few things to consider: It sounds like your manager has had this responsibility foisted on her and is unhappy about it, which is unfair to you. Is there any possibility for a good reference in the future from this place from your manager anyway? If she’s not willing to spend the time training you, is there any ability for you to simply sit in on meetings to gain exposure? You may ask your manager if it would be possible for you to observe more meetings across the firm so you gain some understanding of how professional norms work in this industry. It’d be better than sorting contracts, anyway. Is the company prestigious such that it will look great on your resume no matter what you did there, even if it’s boring now? Does your academic program require you to be in an internship such that your leaving might hurt your academic standing?

      In the end, if the answer to all of those questions is no and it’s affecting your mental health I don’t think there’s a tremendous harm in your resigning. You don’t need to include every single job you’ve had on your resume. And even if you did need to disclose it, you can calmly explain that it wasn’t quite what you were looking for, that the company didn’t have much work for you to perform while you were there (make this sound matter-of-fact, not like a complaint) and that you decided to focus on school (or transition to an internship that was more in line with your career interests).

      Hang in there!

      1. Unhappy Intern*

        So there’s a weird thing going on. My manager is another lady, so I’d get a reference from someone else, and not the supervisor I work closely with. I think I could get a good reference, because I do a great job at my internship — I always deliver things in a timely manner, I’m nice to everyone, I help around whenever I can.

        My supervisor hasn’t invited me to sit in on a meeting, so I feel uncomfortable asking. The only time I come along is when we have state-wide meetings, which all interns participate in.

        It’s a big company, and it’s well-known locally. I think having it on my resume might open a lot of doors, mostly because former interns now work at great firms. That’s honestly the only thing keeping me there.

        Not completing the whole six months wouldn’t hurt me academically, thankfully! I’ve used that line about it not being what I was looking for, and it worked, so I hope it works again when I find other internships to apply for.

        Thank you for your comment!

  77. chi type*

    I’m really getting frustrated with the situation at my work. Our Director quit a few months back and the people left in charge are AWFUL. Nowadays you’re far more likely to get in trouble for going the extra mile for a customer than you are for treating them coldly and strictly enforcing every dumb little policy. I know I should just wait and see how it goes when they hire a new director but the whole thing has disgusted me so much I feel like it might be time to move on anyway.

      1. chi type*

        I’m sure it didn’t help! There’s also an upward mobility problem in this org, which, come to think of it, the 2 awful supervisors also exemplify- people who have been here forever and basically seem to hate their jobs (and all humanity, lol) but just squat in those high up positions til they drop dead at the desk. :P

  78. Manders*

    Folks who made a successful comeback from burnout, how did you do it? I switched jobs and started making an effort to exercise, but this year involved a whole lot of life crises crashing down on me at once, and I can’t shake that restless/listless feeling even though I’ve made a lot of changes.

    Getting a therapist is in the works, but it’s been a rocky road with a lot of setbacks (last time I scheduled an appointment, the building was empty and locked, and it turned out dude had forgotten to tell me he was at the hospital!).

  79. agmat*

    I’m waffling on when to tell my boss I’m pregnant. Relevant details:
    1. I’m 7 weeks – not very far into the 1st trimester and we haven’t even told family yet.
    2. My first big OB visit is Oct 2. The next day is the start of our big week long, out of town training…with the entire division. There are expectations of after hours fun, obviously including alcohol. I want to tell my boss before it just spills out to the entire division (and I *do not* want to be the center of attention regarding this).
    3. I am so.tired. I could not avoid putting my head down around 2pm twice this week already for a nap. I don’t work in an office, so something like that isn’t obvious to anyone, and I’m getting my work done, but I feel guilty.
    4. There is the occasional possibility of being near dangerous chemicals or in areas where they have recently been used.
    5. I am going to be heavily involved in two major projects this coming year. I am most likely going to turn down another opportunity for a leadership academy due to this pregnancy because of the timeline.
    6. My employer is family friendly – I’m not worried about that.

    Ultimately I think this boils down to wanting my family to know before my boss knows – but my husband is almost adamant that we don’t tell family until that first big OB visit. Thoughts? Experiences? Thanks!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Could you tell your boss something a little more vague, like “I’ve been having some medical issues that might require [a nap/that I don’t drink alcohol/…]. It’s no big deal so no need to worry, but I wanted to let you know in case you notice anything out of the ordinary”?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Regarding 2 and 3, you can always be “a little under the weather,” which would preclude after-hours partying and would explain the fatigue. (And would allow you to say, later, ha! Guess it was because I was pregnant!) But 4 is a problem, and your/your child’s health are more important than your husband’s insistence on who gets what information when. Tell him you’re the pregnant lady and you get to make *some* of the decisions.

      1. agmat*

        This is the one that I’ve been thinking about most. It is occasional enough that I could conceivably avoid it for the next 2 weeks (and have been able to avoid it up until now anyway). And really, I wouldn’t even say avoid – the situations just haven’t come up.

        I think if the situation does arise I’m going to tell my boss (because it would have to be a “No, I cannot go there to collect samples – someone else will have to”). And I’ll tell my husband my decision on that, too – I know he’ll get it, I just haven’t spelled it out to him.

        Until then…I’m “under the weather” until I can see him face to face the day after my OB. I’d rather pull him aside and tell him in person, since most of our communications are over the phone. Plus, I foresee me being still dog tired and potentially nauseous during that week and will want to explain myself.

        1. Artemesia*

          My daughter had to tell her boss early when she needed to fly to Florida for a client meeting and her doctor said ‘absolutely not, Zika’. First things first. You can be under the weather and not drink as someone suggested; you can also in a bar ask the bartender for 7 up with a twist and not draw attention to what you are drinking, but chemicals? Obviously you can’t avoid that.

          It is great if you can wait until the 12 week mark when the major risk of loss drops dramatically but you gotta do what you gotta do. And congratulations.

    3. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

      So the only thing that would make me share is 4. 4 matters a lot, and matters the most early in pregnancy. If you believe your boss would be reasonable and up for discretely making sure you don’t handle chemicals, I’d tell the boss and ONLY the boss.

      I told my boss at 5 (!!) weeks. I was SO TIRED like right away at 4 weeks and started puking my guts out soon thereafter. My boss was awesome with letting me work from home so I could work between the rounds of puking.

      My husband and I told immediate family at 8 weeks (after the first appointment, verified that fetus was okay, and I got drugs for sickness). It was definitely not the end of the world to tell my boss before family. It was definitely a bit weird, but it’s what I needed to do. I also know that telling my boss about a loss (which is likely so early) also would have been okay, if not ideal. My parents don’t know that my boss knew before them, but my boss does know. He finds it a bit odd, but also takes the attitude that it is what it is. We told extended family later, after the NT scan at 12 weeks.

      Also, I’d find a way to do the leadership academy if at all possible, even if you delay it by a year.

      If it makes you feel better, my energy started coming back around 10 weeks. I still sleep more than I used to, but the mid-day fatigue is gone unless I overheat. I’m 20 weeks now, and I hope your energy comes back soon!

      When I was super tired, I asked for tips here! Recommendations of continuously drinking water and getting up to move helped a lot. Also, nap if you need it. Growing a human is hard!

  80. Dennawe*

    Has anyone ever heard of someone getting fired for casually asking if their coworker was married or had kids? The person asking wasn’t in a management position or asking for nefarious reasons, he was just trying to get to know the other person and was awkward about it. I totally understand why it’s not a professional thing to ask, but was surprised it was a fireable offense.

    1. Manders*

      Uh, that’s really weird. I guess it comes down to the level of awkwardness–did this guy bungle small talk so badly he came across as if he were trying to hit on someone?

      1. Dennawe*

        I am pretty sure that wasn’t the case because the person who was asking is married to someone who is not the same gender as the person they were asking.

    3. Temperance*

      Okay so my gut feeling is that maybe you only heard half of the story from the person? Because I can totally see this being a normal question, and I can also see the office close-talker asking me this while he breathes down my neck and thinking that he’s trying to get me pregnant.

      I also wonder if there were other weird issues with him, too.

    4. Student*

      Sometimes, people lie about why they were fired, or why someone else was fired. Sometimes, bosses will lie about why they fired someone.

      This sounds like a lie, or at best a very misleading partial truth.

    5. Been There, Done That*

      It sounds weird, as others have replied, since family often comes up in casual conversation at work. But you never know how someone will take things. When I started my job, the coworker who shares my office went on and on and on about her kids’ medical issues and their finances as they were trying to buy a home. I was shocked at how much incredibly private stuff she unloaded on somebody she’d only just met! Flash forward a few weeks, and in a larger conversation I made reference to her kids or school or something like that. She barreled into the boss’s office to complain I was talking about her family, and I got taken over the coals. Weird. But true.

  81. Birdbrain*

    Just venting. I’ve had a really frustrating week and am about ready to explode. Yesterday someone from a different team came by my desk and saw me pulling my hair out: they asked what was wrong and I answered in a shaky, almost-in-tears voice. (I pulled it together quickly, but now I’m irritated at myself too because that was unprofessional.) My boss, to her credit, offers to help me out when I’m extra busy… but when I ask her to take over any aspect of my work she asks me tons of questions and refuses to read the documentation, and then assigns me additional work that she’s “too busy” to do because she’s handling the task I asked her to cover. And if she assigns it someone else on our team, they are often also too busy and it ends up back on my desk.

    Basically I feel like I’m being pecked to death by a bunch of needy work-pigeons, while getting contradictory information from the Pigeon Authority about how to handle said pigeons. Normally I like my job, but these past couple of weeks, ARGH. Not looking for advice (except maybe how to adjust my attitude?), I just needed to get that out. TGIF!

    1. Footiepjs*

      Easier said than done but try to cut yourself some slack for yesterday. You don’t need to be hard on yourself when others are apparently doing it for you.

    2. Jessi*

      I know you said that your not looking for advice but could it help to take a deep breath and then make it your bosses problem?
      ‘I have 6 tasks that will take me all day today. I can do extra task but then I won’t be able to do 6 key tasks – which would you like me to drop?’
      ‘Boss I am mega swamped, you’ve assigned me task y, which I won’t be able to get done on top of all the regular work. What would you like me to prioritise?’ Make the extra work your bosses problem? It may not actually help with the work flow but then you have at least brought it to your bosses attention. Sorry this is happening it sounds really frustrating

      1. Birdbrain*

        Thanks, this is good advice. (And once I took a step back it was easier to see.) The boss usually ends up making his problems into my problems, but it’s worth a try!

  82. Airedale*

    How much time do you think is reasonable to give yourself short mental breaks? (Like visiting this site, taking a quick walk, etc.) This is assuming you’re already doing a great job and can maintain that. I’m thinking X minutes per hour?

    1. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I think it depends on the work/workload. I know for me, when I’m working on something creative that requires a lot of brainpower, taking a short break every 10 minutes actually helps me come up with better ideas. And when I’m busy, I find that I naturally take fewer and shorter breaks because I just don’t have the time.

      On the other hand, when I don’t have much work to do and/or the work I need to do is boring and repetitive (like today) I find myself at risk of wasting the whole day away. So for me, it’s a balance and every day is different.

      I also think every person is different and what works for you won’t necessarily work for me, so as long as you’re producing at a high level and not shirking any duties, do what you need to do to stay recharged.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I do a job that can be really upsetting and the time I take probably averages out at 5-10 minutes an hour. I don’t browse online though – I get a cuppa or go for a walk or read something on paper.

    3. Jennifer*

      Depends on your job and how much you are being watched at work. If you work anywhere where they watch you, go on about time theft, etc. then the answer is “None.” If you work somewhere sane, it’s up to you to figure out how long you can take a mental break and still get stuff done. I’d probably guess 5-10 minutes though.

  83. Abundantly Annoyed Applicant*

    I’ve been job hunting for just over 6 months and I’m getting really tired of job postings that don’t specify if the position is full or part time. How hard is it for them to put the expected weekly hours? I’ve had to spend hours playing phone tag trying to find out or giving up and applying anyway only to be told in the interview that the position is only for 5 hours a week. What do employers think they gain from this? From my point of view if they only want people to work weeknights for a total of 20 hours a week then they should write that in the job posting so only people interested in those hours will apply. It seems silly to waste your time going over resumes and interviewing people who won’t actually be available or willing to work the hours you need covered.

  84. Anon for this*

    I need HR advice.

    I work in customer support for a large tech company. While I’ve gotten promoted to a different role and team, I still care about the old group. One of the supervisors got fired last week, and they announced his replacement yesterday. This guy had been working as an “adviser,” not quite leadership but definitely not a normal support associate. He also had a habit of flirting with female associates, including me, and sharing uncomfortably personal information about his marriage troubles. I even saw him dancing sexily with a female associate – again, he’s married – when a bunch of us went out to a club once.

    Now that he’ll officially be in a position of power, I want to tell HR my concerns. I don’t know how much they can actually do about something as small as flirting, but I don’t feel comfortable with him basically getting a pass. Any tips?

    1. BeenThere*

      This is really tricky as there are very fine lines (and lots of room for misinterpretations) when it comes to flirting and sharing personal information. Do you have specific examples of things he’s said/done?

      Personally, I’d wait to see if he changes his behavior as their manager. Partying with coworkers, although can be fraught with problems, is fine. Partying with your direct reports is a definitive Not Okay. Same for asking a coworker out: it’s not HR-noteworthy if a coworker asks another coworker out (assuming no sexual harassment if they says no), but it is very much a big deal if a manager asks out a direct report.

      I’d potentially go to HR if you know for a fact that he makes his female employees feel uncomfortable (although, ideally, they’d go to HR themselves). But based on what you wrote above, it doesn’t necessarily seem like his female direct reports have the same issues with him.

      I’m also wondering if you’re going to continue having direct contact with him. If so, and he’s consistently making comments or doing something that makes you uncomfortable, then that is something you can talk to HR about.

      1. Anon for this*

        One of my former coworkers (we started new jobs at the same time, though I’m on the same floor as this supervisor) told me that he made a comment about her ass in front of other employees. None of us have brought it up with leadership or HR before just because, I dunno, we felt it would be easier to tolerate the occasional thing.

        It just feels wrong to not make sure this pattern of behavior is on HR’s radar, in case things come up later.

        1. BeenThere*

          Yeah, that without a doubt falls into the Not Okay category.

          I would speak to HR, let them know that you wanted them to be aware now that he’ll be managing employees. Be sure to present them with as much details as you can about what exactly he said, when, and who else was around.

        2. Been There, Done That*

          Do Not Tolerate This. For one thing, it likely won’t stay “occasional.” Document and go to HR.

  85. Ann O'Nemity*

    My spouse’s company frequently schedules travel during the evening or weekends and it annoys me. For example, fly out Sunday afternoon and return home late Tuesday night. Basically, all travel occurs outside of regular business hours. And since he’s exempt, no overtime. And no comp time either. How normal is this practice? I’m trying if my annoyance is justified.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That sounds extremely normal to me. If I have a 10am client meeting on Monday morning on the west coast, I have to fly out Sunday night. Shoot, if I have a 10am client meeting on Monday morning on the east coast, I fly out at 6:30am. I don’t get overtime, and I don’t get comp time, though I am in a position to say, “I got in at 1am last night, I’m working from home this morning.”

      Honestly, I know very few people who do all of their travel within business hours.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Maybe I’ve been lucky then? Most of my own travel is during business hours and I thought that was pretty normal. So it seemed weird that my spouse’s employer expects their employees to use their personal time for travel.

      2. Squeeble*

        Agreeing with this. What with time zones and time spent in the air/at the airport, it’s just extremely unlikely you’re ever going to be able to keep travel in regular working hours.

        1. Artemesia*

          There is a difference between ‘can’t keep all travel within business hours’ and ‘always expects employee to use their personal time for travel.’ I’d be tempted to say ‘I can’t fly out Sunday night because of a commitment, so I have schedule the meeting with the client at 1 pm on Monday.’ and see what happens. In my experience often unreasonable demands are easily changed when someone says ‘that doesn’t work, I am going to do this.’ Of course it may not work — but has he tried? Does he want to change it or is it you that is concerned?

          I know someone who had to get to work at 6 each morning to get a task with a deadline of 10 am done and then didn’t get to leave till 6 each evening. when she left and a new person was hired, that person said ‘I can’t get this done by 10; so those reports will be available at noon each day’ and no one pushed back and she arrived at 8 am.

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            He’s pushed back a few times when there was a genuine conflict and his company was pretty good about changing it. But the general expectation for all their employees is to travel during personal time so you can put in a full 8 (or 10) hours on site. I don’t know how they’d react if he suddenly said he couldn’t do weekend or late night flights anymore.

            Honestly, I’m more annoyed about it than my husband is. When he’s traveling, all childcare and household responsibility falls to me.

  86. Acoustic Tiles Above Me*

    I’m in a job I’m extremely grateful for (long homemaker, short job history, needed the work) and I enjoy both my company – a large university – and my immediate office. My position, however, does not play to my strengths at all, has way too much admin work compared to the project/policy analysis side, and pays not great. I’ve been here for two years, and seem to be getting good feedback about my performance.

    There’s an opening for an analyst position just above mine, but it wants a level of statistical software knowledge that I don’t have. I’d love to apply, but I would hate to waste my time. If I thought I could become adept in it fast enough I’d do it, but it seems like a reach. On the other hand, I wonder if I’m selling myself really short. I could talk to my boss about it and to a savvy coworker, but sometimes I wonder if I’m ever going to amass the skills to move up.

    1. Amber Rose*

      You’re selling yourself short. Stuff like software can be taught. A good word from your boss and a strong interview, those things are harder to get.

    2. FormerOP*

      What is the software? If it is fairly common, Lynda.com or YouTube might be a good place to learn. Have a crack at it. And yes, you’re selling yourself short! Good people are always in short supply :)

      1. Footiepjs*

        To piggyback, your local library might have a subscription to Lynda and then you won’t have to purchase a subscription yourself.

    3. Dr. Doll*

      If you’re awesome otherwise and the only thing you need to learn is statistical software, apply — and then have a solid PLAN for learning what you need to learn so you can talk about it at the interview.

      I’m so desperate for good people.

    4. Jennifer*

      I’ll be honest: at my university it would be wasting my time to apply for something where I am missing crucial job requirements. I only get interviewed if I have 95% of the requirements and I’ve never gotten a job where I didn’t have 100%–they focus on the one thing I don’t have in the interview and then don’t hire me. But my place is super nitpicky and has a lot of choices so they can find their purple squirrels, I can’t speak for your university.

      If you want to apply, only do it if it’s not a huge amount of work to do so and have really low expectations. Or ask your boss if it’s worth trying.

      As for amassing skills, the one way I do it these days is when my office is short handed and then they start farming other jobs out to me… so maybe that’ll happen for you?

      1. Acoustic Tiles Above Me*

        I think your experience is closer to mine. I had hoped to pick up part of this advertised position because I knew it was coming open, but didn’t know if they were going to fill it. The advice upthread about using my (unfortunately abundant) free time to learn the SAS, etc. software is probably very wise.

    5. Sam Foster*

      If it is permissible in your work culture ask the hiring manager to meet with you for 15 minutes and have a frank conversation focusing on your interest, your concerns and whether this could be made in to a mutually beneficial situation.

  87. Grayson*

    My best friend told me about a job interview she had, and I wanted to toss it to the commentariat, because I’m not familiar with the standards.

    Backstory: Best friend is in HR, and was interviewing for recruiter positions.

    She told me that on her past three interviews for HR recruiter positions that she was told she was not aggressive enough, and most recently she was told she’s a “bad story teller”. What in the devil does the latter have to do with recruiting?

    She’s one of those people that cries when they get hard criticisms, which is a thing she doesn’t really feel like dealing with now. My question, as a person who has never interviewed for recruiting postions, is: Are recruiters supposed to be aggressive and good story tellers?

    1. Grayson*

      The reason I mention the crying is that the critique from the interviewer made her cry, mid-interview, and she left feeling terrible. As her best friend, I’m inclined to want to come to her defense, but I also don’t know the standards here. Or the implications…

      1. Zip Zap*

        Wait. Mid-interview critique? That’s unusual. It makes me skeptical. Could this have been someone with an axe to grind? Some people really enjoy cutting other people down as a way to deal with their own issues.

        I think she should seek advice from a more objective source. Someone in her field who is successful, at a stable point in their career, and isn’t potentially going to hire her.

    2. fposte*

      I think being a good storyteller is important in many, many jobs (that’s what’s happening in a cover letter, after all), so I don’t think it’s absurd to have it considered important in a recruiter. It could be that you and she are hearing the term as something more folkloric when they meant it more as creating a compelling narrative.

      2. Chaordic One*

        This is an excellent insight, fposte. The part about crying so easily is problematic and I don’t know what to say. Maybe some counseling? Or coaching?

        I’m also not sure just what they mean by not being aggressive enough. There is certainly a place for a polite, thoughtful and introverted person to work in recruiting. I would certainly recommend that she look at Susan Cain’s “Quiet Revolution” website for some insights on how introverted people can still be managers and still accomplish a lot. Google it.

        (Personally, I loved her book, but I think it deals a bit too much with selling how great introverted people are. I would have preferred to see more practical information to help introverted people adapt and cope with things and to develop skills to cope and accomplish.)

    3. Rincat*

      My only experience with recruiters has been then contacting me, and I can tell you, the ones that are aggressively sales-y and try to pitch things in the form of a story (which I’m assuming is what they are talking about), turn me off instantly. I want a recruiter who is confident, but not aggressive. My concerns are: is she efficient? Does she understand the jobs I’m looking for, and the jobs she’s hiring into? Does she listen to me and treat me like a professional? Does she respect my time?

      I’ve only encountered a couple of recruiters who fit that bill. Most of them are very rushed sounding, they don’t call when they say they will or get back to me in a timely fashion, and they keep trying to push jobs on me that I’m not qualified for or interested in.

      Those positions she interviewed for sound more like sales positions disguised as “recruiters”. My sister ran into this kind of thing when she was looking for marketing jobs – she’s a designer – and employers kept saying things like that to her.

    5. Been There, Done That*

      Some people are hitched on that “telling a story” crap. It’s a valuable skill in some fields, such as in marketing when you’re developing an example to illustrate a point. I think “tell a story” is the coming jobspeak buzzword that just means being able to explain something and perhaps give examples. After my boss and I interviewed someone for a temp receptionist job, one of the things my boss praised was that she “understands how to tell the story.” The applicant answered interview questions, for gosh sakes. She hired that applicant, and as for the storytelling, this is a gal who never shuts up–especially about herself.

  88. PinkElephant*

    Is it okay to give a week’s notice at a job where we constantly work 60+ hours a week? I feel I will need a week to recover from these long hours and get myself prepared for a new role. I know I will be letting coworkers down but this job is very stressful due to management procrastination.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s still preferable to give two weeks’ notice and ask for a start date at the new job that accommodates the week off. Can you do that?

  89. Fenchurch*

    I am so very excited! I got a new internal position and don’t have to move to a different city with the rest of my department. These events have been unfolding over the past couple of months, and I’m so very pleased with the end result.

    I had been up for a promotion with my current area, but am actually making a few hundred dollars more with the new role. On top of that I won’t have to commute to a different city! So many pluses.

    I also have the opportunity to advance to the next level (Specialist -> Senior Specialist) by the end of next year. This is something that would not even be on the radar in my current (soon to be previous) area.

    Just so incredibly happy with this, and looking forward to my new role as a salaried employee.

  90. NoodleMara*

    Interviewed on Wed with a university system for a position that I’m already qualified for and would do well there. The interview seemed to go well and the job would actually pay me the same as my current job, which means I’m being really underpaid for what I’m doing.

    The coordinator was upfront and honest and said the position is more or less funded by the EPA with funding guaranteed for a year. But no idea beyond that.

    With jobs in my industry being really specific to be paid more and I’m not doing teapot sales, it wouldn’t be worth the risk of moving over there.

    It stinks to have this happen but I’m still applying to stuff. Anyone else deal with this kind of thing? I’ve never worked full time for a university so I didn’t realize how the funding stuff worked

    1. Murphy*

      It can really depend. There are some grant projects that are pretty much consistently funded year after year. (Technically still not a guarantee, but it pretty much always happens.) But budgets can change, and agency priorities can change, so they may not want to promise something they may not be able to deliver. And not to get political, but EPA funding is more up in the air than some other agencies these days. I’m not saying don’t take the job, or that it won’t be funded for more than a year, but they really can’t promise anything beyond that, even if they’re pretty sure funding will come through.

    2. Overeducated*

      Yes, I’ve worked in multiple sectors with some positions dependent on grant and federal funding and it really stinks. It’s not a great situation right now. Good luck finding something more stable!

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I wish universities and non-profits were more upfront about positions funded by soft money, but I imagine far fewer people would apply if they knew the position was only semi-permanent. In my experience, most orgs really do try to make the programs sustainable and will look for replacement sources of funding for when the grants run out. And sometimes they put that responsibility on the program staff to write additional grants. So, yeah, in your case I’d be reluctant to leave job security for the uncertainty that comes with soft money positions, unless there were other advantages (promotion, more money, etc).

  91. Two-body Problem*

    Ahoy, maties, super long comment ahead on the topic of jobs and marriage being tough to combine. The TL;DR is should I withdraw from an interview for a risky but rare job for the sake of stability and my partner’s career, but the emotional side of the issue is kind of specific to our/my history.

    Background: My partner and I both met as grad students. Partner wants to be a professor, I want a job we’ll call Specialized Teapot Role in the nonprofit sector, neither of which open up often in any given small town or even medium city. We are not willing to live apart for more than a few months. We handled our first couple of post-grad jobs with the “taking turns” method of dual career compromise but that’s not working going forward.

    Partner’s turn: the one that got away. Partner finished grad school a year before I did and got a one-year postdoc in a nearby city, where I moved. We were both applying for jobs that year, and partner wound up getting a major, prestigious grant to continue research there…shortly before I got an offer for a permanent Specialized Teapot Role at a good organization, the professional equivalent of a tenure-track professor job. Partner had already accepted the grant, and it was 100% exactly what they wanted to do at that point in their career, so turning it down would have been a major bridge burning and lost opportunity. I ultimately turned my offer down because the hardship of living apart for two years would have been too great. But I’ve always felt like that was the moment I stepped off track for the career I’d been working toward for a decade, and while I’ve been trying to form backup plans B and C ever since, there’s no question that’s still plan A. It still feels like “the one that got away.”

    My turn: a year later, the best offer I got was for a term position in the Teapot Division of a large organization where I wanted to work long term (I turned down another offer for Specialized Teapot Role at a very small organization where the pay and work-life balance seemed very lacking). We moved together in the hope that my position would turn permanent, but it’s become very clear that the budget situation will prevent that, and my role turned out to be missing some of the major aspects of Specialized Teapot Role that make it worth doing for me. So “my turn” has been mostly a flop. Meanwhile, Partner worked remotely for the postdoc institution for a while and is now working as an adjunct instructor at a local university, but hasn’t found a full time job here.

    Going forward, we want to stop moving all the time for both professional and personal reasons – we’re in our 30s, want to raise a family in one place, and are at the point where staying in one job long term would be best for our careers. So the “my turn/your turn” thing doesn’t really make sense any more, we want to settle down in a way that will maximize both our happiness. Partner is on the academic job market, searching for a professor job in cities where I think there is a nonzero chance of me finding Teapot-adjacent work. But there will be no interviews and certainly no offers for a couple months at least, and possibly stretching toward next summer if the fall cycle isn’t successful.

    Up until this situation, our approach to me applying for Teapot Specialist Roles has been “is it in a place we want to live? Sure, go ahead and apply, they don’t come up often.” I applied for a job at the major employer in my field in a city where we have family and could see ourselves settling down long term…and I have a third, in-person interview next week, which I’ve been told is the final interview. It is a Teapot Specialist Role working directly under a director on a major project of a larger scale than I’ve done before, so it would be a great experience for me.

    The catch? There are two. One is that it’s only a two year job (again!), so there would be a risk that I wouldn’t be able to get a permanent job there (again!). That would put pressure on my partner to find something, or we’d have to move (again!). The second is that if I got an offer, and accepted, partner would not be able to do a larger regional/national academic job search after years and years of grad school and postdocs, and they admitted last night that they would like to do that. There are a number of universities and small colleges in and around this city, but academic faculty job searches are almost always national, and it is well known that being “geographically restricted” is a big career risk.

    But if I received and turned down an offer, I feel like that would be the third time…and quite probably the last time, if we move permanently for partner’s job, since it’s such a specialized role. I have always tried to be open to compromise, but actually rejecting opportunities is something I don’t know if I can do again, since that’s the one situation in the past that I still feel sad about sometimes today. I’d be closing the door on something concrete so partner would have more theoretical doors open, and it would feel like closing the door on that entire career track. Being rejected would actually be much easier emotionally since it wouldn’t be my decision. I’m at a loss – do I withdraw just to avoid being put in that position? Right now I’m planning to go and ask directly about whether they think the person hired could move into a permanent position in the organization, or whether they expect them to leave and go elsewhere, figuring that if that’s a red flag for the committee it’s a red flag for me.

    TL;DR Should I cancel my interview for a job I want (and burn a bridge with the major employer in that city) because if I got it, I’d always regret turning it down, and accepting would mean asking my partner to risk a career they’ve been working toward for over a decade? How do we make the decision about whose job to move for long term?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think you should cancel the interview because it’s not a commitment and you’re definitely interested in the job, but I think you and your partner really need to talk about this whole issue with a counselor. What does it mean to your life together if Partner gets a tenure track job and you can’t find anything really compelling? What does it mean if Partner’s tenure track job isn’t satisfying and Partner wants to chance the market again in three years? Are there kids in the offing? Etc., etc.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      So, of the three things that are important: your partner’s desired position, your desired position, and living together – your desired position has, so far, always been the thing that was “compromised.” What compromises has your partner made?

      As you said, giving up on this position would be abandoning something concrete to leave the option for something theoretical. That’s a lot to ask, considering what you’ve already given up.

      Does Partner have to start their national job search *now*? Could they wait a year or so, and search for positions that would begin in Fall 2019? You’d have a couple of years of experience in the area you want (assuming you get the job), so you’d be in better shape for your next job hunt, and you would have had the experience of doing exactly what you wanted to do, which so far has been denied you.

      1. fposte*

        It looks like the recent move was for Two-body, though, and not partner. It’s just that it didn’t turn out to be a great turn for her.

        I agree that one of the things that can’t give has to give. It’s also worth a dispassionate and honest conversation about finances, income, and career prospects for both of you; doling out “turns” equally doesn’t make sense if one person is making $20k and the other $200k and you’re trying to live in Manhattan, and it may be that one spouse’s dream is a lot more achievable than the other’s.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Ah, you’re right, I misread that.

          But yeah, sometimes two dreams just don’t mesh. I know someone who wanted to be a doctor, and they married someone who wanted a job that made it almost impossible to stay in one place for more than a few years. One of them had to find a new dream.

          1. Two-body Problem*

            Really? The doctors I know seem to have the best of both worlds – they’re mobile AND they have good earning potential!

            I’m much more ok with finding a new dream if it just doesn’t work out (I get rejected, partner gets a good job, I have to make do with the opportunities that exist there) than if I actually have to stomp on it myself to be a decent partner. It’s being offered what you want and turning your back that leaves you wondering “what if”. I’m curious, what happened with the couple you knew?

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              Maybe once you’re established you’re mobile? Or it depends on what kind of doctor you are? They met in college and I guess there was little or no chance that the doctor’s residency/internship/whatever would align with the partner’s options (which would likely have required them to uproot fairly frequently, and possibly to areas that wouldn’t support the doctor’s career). Anyway, the non-doctor ended up choosing a different career path, and they seem happy.

        2. Two-body Problem*

          Yes, the recent move was for me. And I know if partner said “hey can we move again so I can do another postdoc,” I’d be like “you’re not serious, are you?” The difference is that postdocs are definitely temporary and you are definitely supposed to move on after them. Since I’m in a field where people do get lucky and stay on permanently, I can hold out hope that I will…but it has the same impact on my family if I don’t.

          Sadly, we’re both in fields where neither of us is likely to crack six figures, though our incomes have been pretty even so far, and the places where there are the most job openings for both of us are the big expensive cities. (Not interested in Manhattan, but that’s not the only place it can be hard to be on two middle class incomes.) Salaries for my Plan C area are a bit higher, so if we stick to the big cities I might try to make that transition for the money, I just have mixed feelings about that as a career move at this point. One reason the job I’m interviewing for is attractive is that it is in a medium-size, comparatively affordable city…if partner did find a job there, we’d actually be able to buy a house, which it feels like we never will where we are. IF.

      2. Two-body Problem*

        My partner did move with me to work for a year remotely without complaint, when they would have preferred working on site both professionally and personally, and also moved out of an area where we had nearby friends and they preferred the climate. They also gave up the (indefinite but implied) possibility of staying on to teach for a year or two at the postdoc institution and are spending this year underemployed as a result. So there was a compromise for this move, in the hope of me getting some experience and a potential landing spot before the partner’s job search. It’s just it hasn’t turned out as well as I’d hoped. We have both made compromises, but it does sometimes seem like mine have been harder, if only because I didn’t get the first choice job and have wound up in temporary positions by accident, whereas that was part of partner’s career development plan from the beginning. They know I feel bad and don’t want me to carry around disappointment for life because of their career, but knowing how that feels, I don’t want to be the source of that disappointment for them, either!

        Thank you for your idea. Partner could potentially wait another year on the national job search, or could do a targeted local job search first and go national if it doesn’t work out, though it sounds like this job will go through early 2020 at this point. But I think we’re both getting exhausted with moving, so the consideration of uprooting this year and then again in another two years is tiring, especially since oldest kid will be school age by then. I’m not sure, given all that context, how much I should weigh “doing exactly what I wanted to do.”

        1. Ann O.*

          If I am hearing you correctly, really what’s being weighed is whose desires should determine the eventual location you settle in. Because isn’t that really what leaving a theoretical door open so that your partner can do a national job search means? You two don’t want to keep moving. Your partner wants to make sure they can look at jobs based on the job and not the location. How does that not then logically lead to you being limited in your job search to what works best for your partner? (and I don’t know your partner’s field or how much of a superstar your partner is/isn’t, but in a lot of academic job fields, the idea of having options to pick between is more of a delusion than even a fantasy at this point.)

          I think you should do the interview. It may or may not lead to a dilemma, but why close the door unless you’re certain that you don’t want to walk through it? But simultaneously, you two should probably do some counseling to talk through things. I think you’ve given up more at this point, but it’s almost irrelevant because you guys are trying to figure out a long term. So you’ll benefit from a trained third party guiding you through the very important what ifs.

          (and is potentially moving two times really worse than turning your back on this job? I mean, I hate moving a LOT! But if this two job stint resulted in your partner finding a tenure-track professorship AND you being able to find a permanent job in your desired field, wouldn’t the extra moves be worth it?)

          1. Two-Body Problem*

            Thanks. I am planning to go to the interview but willing to have the question of paths to permanent employment be a deal breaker for me or them.

            The issue of academic jobs and choice has been a sore spot because I have a much more pessimistic view of the landscape. To be clear, partner is not applying based just on the job – about half the prospects in their field so far are in places I don’t want to live, so they re just not even applying. We will both ask each other “should I apply for this?” And I am the onr who most often says “no way” based on location. I am trying to get partner to say that instead of “might as well try” every time. But yes, it is 100% true that even the most successful people we know have only had one offer. That’s That’s why we’re trying to avoid winding up in places we don’t want. It just makes ir riskier for them if we settle down for my job and that’s the scary part.

            We actually just had another talk about balancing the priorities of permanence, good location, their job, and my job…and they sound more open to making decisions based on location than I thought, even if we do have to move again. It’s gone from “I want this job but can’t have it!” to them saying “maybe you should seriously consider it since we want to live there and it would be good for you, moving sucks but we can do it if we have to. I think I was just freaked out by the prospect of moving so soon.” So we have reversed positions now, which I guess means we are not married to our individual careers above all else…just wish us luck making decisions we won’t regret given whatever choices we have.

    3. FormerOP*

      Do the interview! If nothing else, it is good practice. Is there a reason that turning down an interview would be burning a bridge? If not, people turn down interviews/jobs all the time. FWIW, I think that you and your partner need to decide what you are both willing to compromise on to “settle down.” There just aren’t as many senior positions as there are entry-level (in case there is a field that is structured differently, hold your fire) so the job-finding problem is just going to get harder and harder the more you both advance in your careers. In all likelihood, someone’s career is going to take priority eventually. If it turns out that your career is the one that is riding shotgun, there are other things in life.

    4. Non-Prophet*

      is the Specialist Teapot Role that you mention one that is likely to be grant-funded, throughout the industry? If so, a two-year employment duration might be very typical, even for large, well-known nonprofits….that doesn’t really give you a concrete answer to your question, but it’s something to take into consideration, especially since it sounds like you want your next move to be something that provides longer-term stability for your family.

      Good luck. I have a lot of friends in academia, and these types of challenges are not uncommon.

    5. blackcat*

      Do the interview.

      My husband has taken a job outside of academia to better support my chances (also in academia). We have more money (like… a lot more). He is far less stressed. He doesn’t particularly like the work, but may be able to find something better in the future. He’s setting himself up to be portable.

      He misses academia greatly. It is a huge sacrifice. I am very grateful. But it’s going to make it possible for me to have a career AND have kids. Given that he wants kids more than me (the woman who will carry them), it’s sorta “fair.” I wasn’t willing to do the dual-academic thing while raising kids.

      Odds are high one of you will need to execute plan B. Why not do it now?

      1. Two-Body Problem*

        Realistically, I am the one better equipped to execute Plan B. I have been informational interviewing up a storm this week, asking about a title change at work that would make me more competitive in other sectors, etc. And that makes me feel better because I feel like I can be flexible and make things work to have a good life. It’s just hard not to grab at chances for plan A, which is what I am doing.

  92. Mary (in PA)*

    I interviewed for a job back at the end of June and the manager said that an offer letter would be on the way. The last I heard from them was one month ago, and at that point, the offer letter was still pending. Am I in the clear to send an email to check in and make sure things are still on track?

    (I know I should not get my hopes up about a single job, but this is the first place in three years that has progressed me to the point of actually getting a potential offer, the schedule and work are both something that I can do while coping with my chronic illness, and I have a chance to work with one of my good friends from grad school, so it really is perfect for what I want to do/what I can do right now. I really, really want this particular job.)

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        I understand your caution. It’s kind of a weird situation. It’s at a small academic organization; they’re trying to determine their needs as the organization grows. The job is 20 hours per week as kind of a jack-of-all-trades admin; I would be doing the stuff that the technical people don’t necessarily have time to do, and would be directly assisting the busy manager who interviewed me, but there may also be a chance for some project management work. They’ve been limping along for a while without someone in this role – and as I’ve told many people, this is the kind of thing that wouldn’t happen if there was someone doing this job in the first place!

        The organization itself is also spread over two states. The work itself is in PA, but the business functions are in MD. That could also be another contributing factor to the delay. Also, the last time I got an academic-adjacent job, it took three months for an offer letter to show up, and that was with me having already had an internship in that role.

        I’m not ready to abandon this opportunity completely; though it’s not what I’d call a “dream job,” it fits my needs and will help me ease back into the workforce.

        1. fposte*

          It sounds like your expectations are measured and reasonable; I hope you hear good news soon. (Now that you mention it, we have a gap of three-four months for some offer letters in my college sometimes, though I keep in touch with the candidates in the interim.)

          1. Mary (in PA)*

            Thank you! I’m actually planning to write on Monday; I don’t want to send something like this as the last thing before the weekend, especially to a busy person.

  93. bohtie*

    Last week, my boss told me there was a good chance I’d get promoted this year. Yesterday, he told me instead that I could get put on probation or fired for calling in sick too often (I have a chronic illness that, long story short, FMLA doesn’t cover, and while I haven’t used all my leave, my company has a policy that limits the number of *occasions* you can call in, which is a fraction of the number of actual sick days you get, but they don’t tell you until after you’ve violated it). So HR has decided I’m not allowed to call in sick or have any other unexcused absences until 2018 or else I end up on at least probation. That’s gonna end well, considering that on a regular basis I’m too occupied with throwing up to survive public transit, and especially since it also includes other non-sick callouts (like family emergencies, or say, the two times this year my basement has flooded, or my elderly dog needing to go to the emergency vet). Because I can just magically make all of those things not happen.

    And of course we start the end of year review process next week, so I get to try and get through that entire several-week-long process without letting the entire department know how salty/bitter/frustrated I am. I’ve been here for a decade, I love the work I do, I love my boss, but this is just way too much getting dumped over my head at once.

    1. Natalie*

      I have a chronic illness that, long story short, FMLA doesn’t cover

      What’s your source for this? FMLA does not specify that it only covers this or that illness, so the exact diagnosis shouldn’t be relevant to whether or not you are covered. Is the issue that your absences are last minute?

    2. Anion*

      Ugh, the absences/”occurrences” nonsense. I worked for a company like that once, what a nightmare.

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I agree with Natalie here: check that FMLA thing, because that doesn’t sound quite right to me either. And speak to your doctor and HR if you can?

  94. Wasn'tMe*

    Gosh, I didn’t realize how quickly the Friday thread fills up!

    My (very large) department decided at the beginning of the year that the only way to promote an individual is when there is an open, posted position, and we will all need to go through the same interview process as an outside candidate. Some of us are grumbling about it, but I see it as an opportunity to brush up my CV and interviewing skills, network with people I might not have the opportunity to access on a regular basis, and remind people of my background, experience and what I’ve been doing. The bigger issue is that this new policy has not been widely communicated. That is, we have been hearing about it through the grapevine and then confirming it with our management. So it seems that some folks have been encouraged to apply, others are completely in the dark that this is the only way to get promoted. In general, we’re all pretty ticked off about it – but should we be? Is this really any different from how we would get promoted without this process?

  95. Myrin*

    I’ll be leaving for my first ever week-long intensive course in my field on Sunday. (Well, broad field. I’m in Vanilla Teapots and the course will be mostly, though not completely, about Chocolate Teapots, but since we’re all Teapotters, it’s relevant no matter what.) I’m super excited! The organisers so far have been out-of-this-world accomodating and nice and the program looks demanding but also really, really interesting. I’m sure I’ll be able to learn a ton and connect, especially with most of the other attendees coming from related-but-not-the-same fields – I hope everything will go as well as I’m making it out to be!

  96. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Oh man. My company had huge layoffs yesterday. I was spared, but there’s no way to know whether more are coming. It looks like the company is being pared down to get acquired. Anyone here have advice about going through downsizing and acquisition? I know I should be job-hunting, but also general advice for weathering the storm??

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’m so sorry. I was laid off myself a couple of years ago, and have helped to manage layoffs for several departments in my current job. It’s disorienting and difficult. I have a few pieces of advice.

      First is just to take care of yourself. Make sure you’re getting sleep, eating, drinking water, doing things for fun, all that. This will also help you manage your emotions. It’s okay to feel stressed and upset, absolutely, but if those feelings make you freeze, it will be hard to move forward. Let yourself have your feelings, but try not to dwell in them.

      If your organization’s leadership is at all reasonable, they should be expecting that productivity and morale is going to take a downturn. They should be expecting that people will be looking for new roles. Unless you think your manager will be unreasonable, have a conversation with them about your plans and their expectations. Often, managers will be open to letting their employees spend a small portion of the day on their job search. Here, managers often have one afternoon a week where employees are encouraged to work on resumes, get interview coaching, take interviews, etc. Most managers want all of their employees to land well and completely understand that you are seeking a new role, so it can be a load off your mind to know that you don’t need to sneak around your boss as you search.

      Finally, as someone who’s been on both sides of this process, try not to read tea leaves. Whatever’s going to happen is going to happen, and worrying about it our trying to predict it will just waste brain space you could be using on anything else. Make sure you’ve got a handle on your financial health and have built up your savings as much as possible, connect to your network, all of that stuff that is in your control. But let go of the other stuff. It will make you happier and more relaxed, I promise.

      Sincerely hoping this process is as painless as possible for you and that you land exactly where you need to.

      1. Zip Zap*

        I worked at a company that downsized shortly after I left. There were a lot of warning signs, like announcing that they couldn’t give out holiday bonuses that year.

        I worked in the smaller, secondary building. One day when a lot of people were out, someone who appeared to be a realtor came in with some prospective buyers or tenants. They were asking questions about the space, the cost, etc. It was pretty obvious what was going on. I quickly spruced up my resume, put all my spare time into my job search, and landed something better a few weeks before the layoffs were announced.

  97. Private I hope*

    Person sacked for masturbating at work in a private toilet … I always thought that anything (legal) that happened in a private toilet would not be even up for discussion?

    So – don’t know if people saw a side comment on a thread this week where someone posted about a (female I think) colleague who was sacked for self-pleasuring in a private toilet, because someone spotted what she was up to through a crack in the door. now because it was a side comment there was not much disussion on it. But I wondered – REALLY – sacked for something private in a private room and no action taken on the person acting as a peeping tom? Especially (I’ve read) that some women use this as a way of pain control.

    Is this an american thing? (the sacking I mean, not the activity that caused the sacking)

    1. Manders*

      If it was on work property or at a client’s site, yeah, I’m not surprised she was fired. Just because the stall has privacy doors doesn’t mean anything you do in there’s totally consequence-free; you could also be fired for doing drugs in a bathroom in your workplace even if your shift’s over and you just popped in quickly before heading home. And if you’re doing it obviously enough that someone walking by the stall notices, or you’re gone for so long that someone’s dispatched to find you and see if you’re ok… that’s not a sign of great judgement.

      1. Private I hope*

        emphasis on legal (which I assume drug taking is not). I’m not advocating major time wasting – i’m more intrigued that someone actually was watching what happening in what most people would assume is a private space.
        I never heard you can be fired for using the restroom facilities after your shift – unless i suppose there was pre-published company specific rules in place about this (in which case someone is fired as a logical consequence for for rule violation/breach of security).

        Not something I’d do or advocate personally, but the whole thing about being watched gives me the creeps – and glad to be based in Europe.

        1. Manders*

          Wait, you can’t be fired in Europe if you’re found masturbating or taking drugs on company property while you’re off the clock? That… doesn’t seem right.

          1. Private I hope*

            I was meaning legal actions (which drug taking is not). any illegal action at work (e.g. taking drugs) would be grounds for dismissal.

            My angle was someone was performing a legal activity (weird for work, but legal) in a private space and was fired because someone else invaded their privacy. My view is if someone is say 3 mins in a private toilet then nobody has any business watching or reporting them – (the only exception being if they were doing something illegal). Maybe I have led a sheltered life, but I’m imagining that there had to have been a lot of scrutiny to be able to safely reach a conclusion to what the person was doing.

    2. Myrin*

      I seem to remember that the comment you talked about said that 1. the masturbator was super loud, moaning and groaning for everyone to hear (which I believe brings up a sexual harassment angle) and 2. there was no peeping-tom-age going on, the door was so weirdly positioned that you’d automatically see inside the stall while washing your hands. I might be misremembering, though, so I’ll search for it shortly.

        1. Myrin*

          Aha, found it! I did remember correctly, there was loud shifting and moaning going on and the “witness” actually thought there was some toilet trouble going on. The poster lated commented on their strange doors, too:

          “Yeah, our bathrooms are not the greatest. It’s probably about a 3/4 inch crack between door and stall edge. If you know what your coworker wore that day, it’s pretty common to say “hey Fergusina!” if you spot them in there. We also had one stall that got stuck closed and maintenance didn’t fix it until a bigwig visitor became trapped.”

          3/4 inch, that’s 4.45 cm if I used the right formular. Goodness gracious!

          (Link to the comment in question in my name for anyone who’s wondering.)

          2. zapateria la bailarina*

            The bathrooms in my building are similar, and a coworker went on a several-months-long campaign to address the huge crack between the stall wall and door. Finally maintenance just got a bit of wood trim from home depot to cover the crack but it took ages for it to be fixed.

    3. Murphy*

      I believe with the comment you mentioned that the activity was also extremely audible and the visual information just confirmed what was going on.

      If you’re getting caught doing something like that in a private bathroom, then obviously whatever you’re doing isn’t actually private, which is what makes it fireable. No one else needs to be subjected to that.

      1. Private I hope*

        true. but bathrooms need to be private. thats my real amazement on this whole thing.

        I would not want anything I do in a bathroom to be non-private – and I’m speaking as someone who would only be up to blameless activities. Blameless, but with an expectation of privacy.

    4. fposte*

      I don’t know if it’s limited to America, but it’s certainly true that in the U.S. the notion of shielded privacy you’re discussing isn’t really a thing here. It doesn’t matter if it’s legal; it matters if the workplace is keen for you to do it on their property and time.

  98. Lynn*

    Possibly a silly question, but here goes.

    I work for a government agency as an attorney; it’s not a “legal” type agency so the job is pretty in-house counselish. At this point, I’m pretty senior and work at home most of the week. Sometimes, on work at home days, I’ll have to go into the office for an emergency. When I go in for an emergency, I’m expected to say for the remainder of the day, so the gov isn’t paying people to travel back and forth during core hours.

    On normal days in the office, it’s sort of a creative professional look – attorneys wear anything from regular business casual (one guy) to a creative professional look (think patterned dress, colorful jacket or sweater, boots or dress pants, collared shirt, and sweater). I’m not comfortable going to the office in my work at home clothes (leggings, etc), but earlier in my career when I’d take the time to throw on regular work clothes, I’d be told not to waste time and just to come as I am. Now, while changing into anything is a pretty quick process for me, I understand that it looks like to took extra time to dress up during a crisis, so I don’t do that anymore. I’ve been opting for jeans and a plain tee shirt, since that looks like something I might wear to work at home, but then once the problem is fixed, I’m stuck carrying on my day dressed really really casually. That would be fine if I just holed up in my office, but once it become clear I’m actually present, I end up having face time with far too many people.

    Should I just keep doing what I’m doing? Go ahead and throw on normal work clothes (I’m senior enough at this point that no one would say anything, even if they disagreed)? Is there another casual but dressy uniform I could keep in mind? I’ve considered keeping a blazer in my office, but given our setup, it’s not really practical to store clothes there.

    It’s such a small problem, but it makes me batty every time it comes up. Any ideas?

    1. Karo*

      Could you keep a maxi dress handy? It’s something you could conceivably wear at home, but (in my office at least) wouldn’t stand out as much as jeans and a t-shirt. Then you wouldn’t have to worry about any of the evils of shorter dresses (Did I shave recently? Do I care enough? Are bare legs acceptable?), and you’ll still look presentable.

      Alternatively, you could leave a professional-looking sweater or blazer in your car, along with professional shoes, that you could throw on for emergency visits.

      1. Red Reader*

        I keep a plastic tote box in my car that has a long black cardigan, a fleece with our logo on it, a spare pair of black leggings and a pair of cheap ballet flats for last-minute work trips — that way, I’m covered for “the Smith office always sets the thermostat at ten below” and “I’m meeting with people who might actually care if my against-the-dress-code tattoos are showing” and “dammit I forgot to change out of flip flops,” and none of it is going to come out of the plastic box worse for wear. And the plastic box keeps it all together AND makes it the clothing I own that’s the least likely to have dog or cat fur on it, since we have two of each. :P (I also usually keep a spare pair or two of socks and underwear and an oversized t-shirt in the car too, but that’s less for work and more for unexpectedly being stranded somewhere or in case of a rainstorm or unexpected major food mishap or whatever.

    2. CatCat*

      Is the person that told you not to take the time to change still working there? Is this still an expectation? It seems a little nuts to nitpick on a couple of minutes to change tops and pants.

      Am I reading it right that you’re changing into a jeans and t-shirt before going to the office so it doesn’t look like you changed into anything?

      1. Lynn*

        He’s still there, and still seemingly under the impression that it takes women (and just women) far too long to change clothes to make it appropriate to take the time when time is a factor. So, yeah, I totally swap pjs for jeans and whatnot instead. I do realize it’s crazy, but I’m just not sure what the lesser evil is at this point.

        1. CatCat*

          Oy vey. I’m sorry you have to deal with this nuts and sexist perspective. If this guy is a peer, I’d just blow him off. If he’s a superior… then, yeah, I can see where one would prefer just to play this ridiculous game rather than point out to the boss how ridiculous it is.

          What about khakis and a nice tee with a scarf and bracelet?

        2. zapateria la bailarina*

          YIKES. Any chance you can just do whatever you want, and if he comments that you shouldn’t take extra time to change into nicer clothes you can say something like “it only took three minutes to throw on dress pants and shoes, and I will not come to the office in pajamas”?

          1. Lynn*

            Oh, I totally could, and I’m senior enough now that it probably wouldn’t prompt any comment at all no matter what I showed up in. But it’s my great grand boss, and we work rather closely together, so I’m not sure this is the battle I want to pick given his prior comments on it.

        3. Mephyle*

          If you get this comment again, tell him you didn’t change at all, you just came in the same clothes you put on in the morning. Whether it’s true or not.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      You could keep the leggings (probably just black, but ymmv) and then throw a dress over it and wear flats and some jewelry. It would take minimal time to change and you could be out the door in five minutes or less. Conversely, wear a nicer knit shirt/tshirt (not your obvious tshirt you got as a freebie) with your leggings, swap out the leggings for slacks, and then throw on a jacket/cardigan and shoes. Heck, I wore a tank, jeans and an open cardigan last week with flats and we’re a bit stodgy here.

    5. zapateria la bailarina*

      I think you could keep the jeans and tshirt, but just always have a blazer handy to throw on. Makes any outfit look a little more pulled together. Or you could go with black jeans instead, or regular jeans and a button down shirt, to keep it on the dressier side of casual.

    6. Jaydee*

      Dresses. Work appropriate dresses. Like a basic shift dress or wrap dress or something. Seriously, they look professional, but it takes 30 seconds to pull off your work-at-home clothes and pull a dress over your head. Add a cardigan or blazer and you’re set. And if this guy gives you any grief, a cheery “Oh, thanks! It only takes me about a minute to put this on, but I appreciate knowing it looks like I put actual effort in.”

  99. Athena*

    What’s the best way to focus in a job rife with distractions? My job consists of supporting IT to a 1,000-person organization, manage 3 interns, and complete large (and often expensive) projects for my supervisor and head of department. There’s one other full-time employee in my department that does my job (we share an office) but he’s completely unmotivated and does just enough to get by. I’ve talked with my supervisor and he’s aware but nothing has changed with the behavior. I’m overwhelmed, overworked, and beyond frustrated at this point.

    I think the worse offense is the non-work related social interaction. People *love* to stop by my desk for a chat and don’t take cues to leave even if I turn around in my chair and just ignore them. There’s 3 employees on my floor that love to take a break from their work and relax by coming to chat with me. I’ve started trying to stay in my office all day because if I walk by the desk or office of one of these employees it’s like they remember I’m there and will stop by to chat once I’m back. One of the interns also has no “social skills” as my supervisor calls it, and will do stuff like stand behind me whistling a song while I’m working on cutting a $55,000 order or walk in my office 10-15 times a day and just stand there and say “uuhhhhh I forgot why I’m here.” The whole situation is distracting and I’m losing my mind. I admit that I set horrible boundaries in the beginning because I’m introverted and shy, and didn’t have the courage to say “Sorry, I can’t chat now! I’m busy working on something and we can talk later.” so my shared office has become a revolving door of people. The co-worker that shares my office is also a talker and could talk to a brick wall. All day he’s rolling over to my side of the cubicle wall to shove his phone in my face and show me something he saw on Facebook when I’m up to my eyeballs in work.

    How do I fix this? I’ve created a monster by not setting boundaries or sticking up for my own time but surely you’d think they would see interrupting someone for hours a day is inappropriate. Do I need to rope in my supervisor? Moving offices is not an option and I’m stuck where I am. My workload is certainly not getting any smaller and the interruptions are greatly affecting my productivity. My supervisor has an idea that it’s a problem because if one of the employees are hanging out in the office and just going on and on about nothing he’ll walk down and tell him (in a joking tone) that he’s being a distraction and to let me work.

    1. Athena*

      I also forgot to mention that I’ve repeatedly told the intern to stop his obnoxious behavior of interruptions, whistling, all the other stuff he does, etc. and it has not helped. His work performance is poor and I have addressed it but upper management has not. I can also say things in the moment to the other employees but they usually come back the same day or at least once a day every day. This is an every day thing.

    2. NoodleMara*

      Is there a way to set a time to have chats early or late in the day? Tell the chatty people you can’t talk now but you’ll have 15 mins later? Find some way to tell them your office is off limit for chats and you’ll talk to them elsewhere. Offices are for working.

      If it were me, I would get snappy at the coworker you share with, but I know that could cause issues. Some people don’t get it and need blunt words to make them stop.

      Being blunt might not work for you personally so take my advice with a grain of salt.

    3. Jaydee*

      I was in your shoes a couple years ago and you just have to set the boundaries. It will be fine. Be cheerful/friendly about it but also direct. Also, when you really need to not be interrupted, close your door (at least most of the way) and put up a sign that says “trying to focus – available at X:00” and then be responsive to people at X:00 but not before.

      1. Jaydee*

        Also, WRT your office-mate, I think talking to your supervisor again and making it a point of tying things back to that issue when relevant. Like if your supervisor wants to add to your workload but you can’t do that, a suggestion that maybe some of the work could be shared with your office-mate.

  100. Professional Cat Lady*

    Feeling a bit weird about a thing at work today – I am a supervisor in a small non profit, on the smaller of our two sites. There’s 7 of us here on this site, and I have one direct report, and two more indirect reports who work in two different departments.

    All of the other supervisors have been pulled for a mandatory all day HR seminar, something that’s required for supervisors. I wasn’t invited. Not that I WANT to spend my entire day in a seminar, but I feel overlooked and like my job title is a title without all of the responsibilities that go along with being a supervisor. Is that weird? I absolutely don’t want to waste a day at this thing, but I just feel excluded and unvalued for not being invited.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I would assume it was a mistake and ask if I should go. Sometimes people make mistakes, and your name could have been left off the list inadvertently. Could just mean that whoever was typing up the invites was having a bad day and not paying full attention.

  101. Beatrice*

    I found out this week that a spot is opening up that would be a much-wanted promotion for me. I’m torn about how/when/whether to throw my hat in the ring. I know the departing manager pretty well, and the hiring manager also. I once worked on the team that I would be leading, if I got the job, but that was several years ago and I know a lot has changed since then, but I don’t know specifics. There has been 100% turnover and I don’t know most of the current team. It was a high-stress job back then, not sure whether that’s gotten better or worse. Part of me is torn that, I’d be such a strong candidate that once I expressed interest, it would be hard to back out if I decided it’s not for me. The other part of me has imposter syndrome and is worried they’ll think I’m not ready for this and I’m crazy for even asking, and they’ll reject me, and I’ll be disappointed. Ughhh.

    1. Jessi*

      Can you not go to the hiring manager and say something like ‘ I’m interested in learning some more about the X-job before I officially apply for it. Do you have 20m this week to answer a couple of questions about the role?’

      Maybe even throw in ‘ I know this isn’t the way its usually done, but I don’t want to make waves by expressing interest if its not what I am looking for’

  102. SophieChotek*

    Just quick vent. I am often asked to research different options and make a recommendation – everything from social media strategies or working with influencers to laying out different budget proposals for events etc. I try to be impartial when laying out the things I have found out (from various experts) but then I will usually make a recommendation. Based on all this research, I think the direction to go is…X

    Now I am not saying that I am always right (or even often right) but it is frustrating to spend weeks (or months) researching a topic, lay out the research, and then have my bosses come back and pick another option that seems exactly wrong.

    For instance, my company which produces high-end luxury chocolate teapots, wants to hire an influencer to try to gain more exposure. I said we should try to work with some blogger experts that (likely more established, mid-career, wealthier women who are) coffee and chocolate connoisseurs turn to when they want to buy new chocolate teapots. Boss came back and said they want to work with a young Youtube/Instagram star who sells low level ($50ish) bling jewelry because they want to attract a younger crowd…

    Bangs my head…and set out to contact YouTube blogger…

    1. Student*

      When they don’t go with your recommendation, I think it helps to try to hear more from them on why they went a different direction.

      In this case, I can see why you recommended what you did, but if they genuinely mainly want to expand their advertising to a specifically young crowd – if and that wasn’t in your original assignment brief – it might mean that you need to ask them for more information at the outset of projects so you can give them better options toward what they want to do.

      The example you gave just seems like you went into it without all the relevant info, so they selected something you didn’t expect because their objectives were different from what you’d focused on rather than because your suggestion was bad.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks for the reality check — that helps.
        I also agree – relevant info tends to be lacking – in this case all I got was “we want to work with some influencers. Research how to do this and give us some suggestions.” So I came back with….

        I agree – they basically came back and said “we want to attract a younger crowd because we need to develop the buyers of tomorrow” sort of thing. Which I guess I get–I just felt like we needed to get customers today (since I know sales are down).

        Anyway, thanks again for the way to reframe — it all helps!

    2. Ann O.*

      I wish your example was your real subject because I would LOVE to know of coffee and chocolate connoisseur blogs to read.

      1. YouvwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        Ann O.
        I HAD to do a search on ‘coffee and chocolate connoisseur blogs’!
        I’ll be checking out Legacy Chocolate’s ‘The Art of Pairing Chocolate and Coffee’, The Chocolate Connoisseur and a few others.
        I just need to buy some chocolate first!

  103. not so super-visor*

    Good news/maybe…. I’ve been in my current supervising positon for 2.5 years. For reference, this position is considered supervisor level as far as pay/benefits but requires me to have 30 direct reports that I am responsible for hiring, training, reviewing, coaching, annual evaluations, corrective actions (if needed) and firing (if needed). I have more direct reports than any “manager” at our office, and supervise about 10% of the total employees at this location. When I interviewed (internal promotion from within the department), I was told that the ultimate goal would be to move the position to a manager level (there’s never been a manager for this department — I report to a director) and eventually replacing my director. My director let me know about a month ago that at the next board meeting that he was going to propose his training plan for me to start learning his job. He’d like to retire in the next few years. His plan is pretty extensive and would require quite the investment from the company (training, travel, development, etc). The meeting was this week! When I asked him how it went, all he would tell me is that I should be pleasantly surprised in the next few months. He also said that I’ve made quite the impression on leadership. Now I’m on pins and needles until I find out!

  104. Nervous Accountant*

    So last week I posted about a recruiter I spoke to because I was kind of frustrated with because all the jobs I”ve applied to want someone from a CPA firm even though it was never written in the requirements.

    Recruiter and I had another chat this week, and he talked about an opportunity that he and I are excited about. He said that he likes that I apply to jobs carefully and I don’t just blindly apply to everything and that whatever I apply to I have 98% of the requirements–that 2% is the CPA firm background, which he said is really annoying but he knows that they’re inflexible about it.

    Last week I was kind of disappointed but wondered if I should have pushed harder or argued back–I didn’t, and now I’m super glad I haven’t!!

    I’m still honestly not sure why these companies are being so anal about CPA firm (were a tax advisory, not CPA firm); I never knew this would be holding me back arhgh.

  105. SophieChotek*

    Chicago
    @KatieKate, et al.

    Thanks all for your suggestions last week about hotels in Chicago. Ironically the prices that I was seeing last weekend came down (even for the downtown hotel, except for Sat. night) and I was able to book a hotel about 2 blocks away from where I will need to be most of the time. (Hurray!) It made me wonder if the hurricanes, or something, had lead to lots of cancellations, as the rooms dropped $100/night in price.

    Anyway, any advice? I don’t think I will really have time to do anything “fun” – if I can, I will try to get to the Art Institute, but that is it.

    I will be visiting retailers that carry out chocolate teapots all day, etc. Plus I am supposed to make cold-calls on other retailers if I have time. (That sounds like fun. Not.)

    Anyway, any advice or suggestions or things I would not necessarily know about Chicago that will make it easier, even though it is a quick trip? I will be flying into Midway, out of O’Hare, staying at a hotel on the Magnificent Mile, will not have a car.

    Thanks!

    1. Mouse*

      Chicago has tons of great parks! If you can go sit in Grant Park near Buckingham Fountain, or Millennium Park, for your phone calls, that might make them a little more fun. :)

    2. KatieKate*

      Grant Park, Millennium Park, and the Chicago River Walk are all great to walk around.

      Only advice I have is keep an eye out for uber prices or red line trains when there’s a Cubs game! Are there any particular places you want to eat?

      1. SophieChotek*

        I doubt I will really have time – for anything nice or leisurely.
        I read about Chicago Brauhaus up on LIncoln Ave that is supposed to be a German Restaurant…that sounds interesting
        But if you have non-expensive restaurants right around Magnificent Mile that you recommend (my per diem is not high) I am certainly open to suggestions. I don’t get off work til 8pm so I would need to eat a late dinner (or do take out and take back to my hotel)…

        Thanks for park recs.

        1. Artemesia*

          Ming Hin which is a Chinatown dim sum place has a restaurant just off Randolph on the edge of Millenium Park — it is roughly across from the Maggie Daley Playground near the Mariano’s grocery store. It is very inexpensive and you can order lovely dim sum for dinner.

          There are of course pizza places like Giordano’s and burger places like Shake Shack for cheap take out.

          1. GovHRO*

            I’d like to recommend the architectural tours (boat or walking and I think some are in evening). The volunteer leaders are awesome and the fees reasonable. I love all the tours, but the boat is great in good weather.

  106. Ramona Flowers*

    This is a somber topic but how good is your employer at breaking bad news?

    Doing it well: today my grandboss let us know that he had some worrying news, as a speaker from an event we attended earlier this week is missing presumed dead. He said he wanted to tell us before we saw it in the news, to take time out if needed etc.

    Doing it badly: the time in oldjob when a colleague took his own life and they announced it by posting an item on the intranet with his name as the title, then the most perfunctory announcement ever. Nothing to flag it as bad news, people thought he had won an award or something. I got a call from someone in another team trying to let me know before I saw it.

    Having some warning that I’m about to hear something bad really helps.

    1. not so super-visor*

      My company is terrible at it! We had a temporary employee who took her own life about a year ago. When I asked HR if they would like to send out an announcement of if they would like me to do it, they looked at me like I was crazy. The exact response was “Why would we bother? It’s not like she was one of our actual employees.”

      1. Murphy*

        Ugh, that is awful!

        I’m fortunate in that I haven’t had to learn how good we are at that kind of thing. *knocks on wood*

    2. Manders*

      The second one, holy crap! What a terrible idea.

      I’m still new at my current employer so I don’t have enough experience to know how bad news is handled yet, but what drove me up the wall at my old job was the fact that the management would hide bad news from the staff. People just disappeared and you had to figure out through the grapevine if they were fired or if they quit. When one of the two attorneys at the firm was fired, one supervisor had to beg the others to actually tell employees what happened instead of acting like he had been erased from the universe. Even a poorly done announcement is better than no announcement.

      1. NGL*

        Ugh, we had that at my Old Job. Didn’t matter whether they’d left under good or bad terms; once someone left they were never mentioned again. Worst was the time someone quit abruptly, and no one updated any of his contact info. E-mails weren’t forwarded or responded to with an auto responder, his voice mail wasn’t changed. It wasn’t until I finally started copying in his supervisor on e-mails that I got a perfunctory “So-and-so has left.” (We worked in separate offices so I had no way of seeing if he was physically in the building, but from what my friends in that office said, they hadn’t been notified he was permanently gone either. Everyone assumed he was out sick or something for a few days!)

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      There was a situation at OldJob that was handled well. At the time, my department didn’t have an onsite supervisor, so a manager we had previously worked with in another role asked us to come talk to him in a conference room.

      We had a colleague who was out on maternity leave, scheduled to return in the next couple of weeks, and manager told us that he had sad news and told us that colleague’s baby had passed away. He gave us a minute to process that and then added that colleague and spouse were arrested for child abuse. It was a very ugly situation. After management broke the news in small groups, big boss and our HR rep walked around and told everyone that we could go home early.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Hooooooooooly shit.

        I think going home early is the best plan, since all everyone would have done for the rest of that day is stare at each other and go “What? WHAT? How?”

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          That was almost three years ago now. Wow. I just googled her name and found information from spouse’s trial last year.

    4. Wendy Darling*

      My last job any time anyone below the VP level quit or was let go it was kept ultra-secret until the person’s last day, and then they sent a company-wide email saying “Lucinda Jones is no longer an employee of AwfulCorp as of September 15, 2017.” And nothing else.

      I assume we would have gotten the same email if someone died tbh.

    5. CM*

      My current employer doesn’t do it at all. You hear through the grapevine. It’s a pretty strong grapevine, but still very odd when an important person at the company passed away with no official announcement.

      My old employer did it well. As a routine matter, they would send out an email with a one-sentence summary of what happened and would answer questions people were likely to have (where the service would be, if coworkers were welcome, etc.) They would actually do this about the deaths of employee’s family members too. We had an older workforce so this would happen pretty often. Now that I think about it, that’s probably not the best policy if you have to be constantly reminded of deaths in your own family

    6. Lily Evans*

      When I was a student worker, I was invited to sit in on a staff meeting (a rare privilege) that was supposed to be fun and involved free pizza. Then one of the managers announced that a man who had retired a couple years earlier had recently had a heart attack and died. It was horribly awkward for younger me, who was the only student there and patently awful at dealing with people’s grief.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      Our missing person has been found safe and well. My best friend who commutes through Parsons Green in London and wasn’t answering my “please let me know you are okay” text is not AWOL or injured but just picked a really excellent week to lose her phone. It’s been a day. And ‘you may also like’ has at least reminded me it could be oh so much worse…

    8. Purple snowdrop*

      My employer: very good when an employee ended their own life. Emails to directorate and all staff, plenty of support for anyone affected. I didn’t know them but it was still a shock, we’d exchanged work emails once or twice.

    9. Zip Zap*

      Hmm, I can’t think of a time when something tragic happened while I was at a particular company. There have been a number of times when someone passed away after I left. In those cases, I found out through the grapevine or the news or an email from someone else who no longer worked there.

      So here are some slightly off topic examples.

      I was really young when the Challenger space shuttle disaster happened. I remember the teacher told the class that something horrible had happened and they had to take us to the library to tell us about it. They gathered all the preK – 1st grade kids in the library and told us that a space shuttle with a teacher on it had crashed and that everyone was presumed dead. It seemed really odd because there were tragic things in the news all the time and no one knew anyone affected by this personally… As far as I knew. I always wondered why they didn’t hold the same kind of meetings when people died in wars, natural disasters, disease epidemics, and other things…

      When I was in high school, two students died, separately, and they didn’t say that much about it. They just made an announcement during a routine meeting and refered everyone to the school counselor for any kind of follow up. I guess they were trying to protect their privacy, or didn’t know what to say, but I think they could have done more to honor these students. It was a pretty small school where everyone knew everyone.

  107. Emma*

    I’ve been anonymously asking questions about my interns over the course of the summer and now that they’re back I just wanted to thank everyone for your advice and help! I think things are off to a smoother start than they have been in years past now that I’m approaching managing the interns differently– that is to say– managing them where they are and not where I expect them to be!

    At the end of one of my new intern’s first day I asked her how she was feeling about everything I had shown her and talked to her about– about our org, our project management software, the intern guide I made this summer– and she literally said she felt like she had a clear understanding of what she’ll be doing and how to do it! It sounds like her summer internship manager was too hands off and it left her feeling confused about her role at that organization so the level of clarity I provided was a light bulb moment for her, too.

    So thanks again!

  108. Lisa B*

    INTERN ADVICE NEEDED!

    I have an intern that starts Monday for her first ever office job. What are the things I might not think to tell her but should? I’m thinking dress code, always bring notepads to meetings, be on time, call me if you can’t come in…. what else would you think of?

    1. Emma*

      Depending on how shy she is make sure you emphasize that it’s always okay to ask questions, and that there’s no such thing as a stupid question! I did not necessarily make a point to say this with my first interns (especially the ones for whom it was their first job) and it makes a huge difference.

      I’ve gotten some VERY basic questions about office etiquette in the first couple of weeks this way, things I wouldn’t have thought to mention that could be awkward down the road. An intern once asked if she needed to tell me when she was taking a bathroom break! I was glad she had the courage to ask otherwise I worry she might have avoided using the bathroom altogether, ha!

      If it applies to her, also mention whether snacking at her work space is allowed and maybe mention break room/kitchenette/kitchen rules? We had a rule about labeling food in our fridge, for instance, but interns are more than welcome to put food in it.

    2. Murphy*

      Does she have a set time to come in on Monday? You mentioned being on time, so you might, but sometimes employers fail to mention a time, which is relevant on the first day.

      What do people normally do for lunch? Do people eat at their desk, is there usually a big group in the breakroom around noon? Is there a fridge where she can keep hers?

    3. Emma*

      OH also– if you have any rules regarding computer and phone usage I’d mention those right off the bat as well. Like having your phone silenced during the day, whether you can check social media at all during work hours, that kind of thing.

    4. CheeryO*

      One little thing that I remember being stumped by as an intern was printing – which printers do we use for what, should I print two-sided, what should/shouldn’t I print for the files?

      I also got into the habit of leaving five minutes early every day, since I was generally five minutes early in the morning. I would also start packing up about 10 minutes early, like an impatient kid in high school. Someone very kindly pulled me aside and told me not to do that anymore, which I appreciated.

      1. Murphy*

        I think this depends on how strict your office is on start/end times. (Though I imagine even if they’re flexible about it, it may be more strict for an intern.) But in general, that’s a great thing to discuss! My first “real” job was really strict on this and I had no idea until I started the job.

    5. Merida Ann*

      I’d let her know how lunch breaks usually work in your office – is it at a set time or just within a range, who does she need to let know before she leaves, do most people bring their food or eat out, do you have a refrigerator/microwave available, etc? Also, if people do usually eat out, recommending a favorite place or two could be really helpful.

    6. Princess Carolyn*

      Don’t forget to teach her how the phones work. If she’s under, say, 30 years old and has never worked in an office, she’s probably got zero experience working with landlines and multi-line phones. But because using the phone sounds easy, she might be reluctant to ask for help. But maybe I’m projecting because I’m nearly 30 and don’t know how to check my voicemail after 8 months on the job.

      1. Murphy*

        I’m 33 and I don’t know how do anything but the most basic of functions on our phones. I don’t know why we don’t have training info on this.

      3. Mephyle*

        I was a student in the 1970s when landlines were the only kind of phones there were. I was still stymied at a summer job when I had to deal with multi-line phones and internal extensions for the first time – one didn’t have that at home, of course, so I was basically as new to it as a student today might be.
        A quick (like a few words – “do this, press here”) tutorial from my supervisor amid all the other new information I was taking in was not enough, and I was shy to ask to have the information repeated after the first time I messed up transferring a phone call.

      4. hermit crab*

        That’s a good suggestion — maybe point her to a user guide? I’m in my 30s and pretty well versed in landline phones, but when we got fancy new phones recently I had to Google the user guide because nobody told us how they worked. Now I keep a PDF version saved to my computer desktop, otherwise I would hang up on everyone each time I needed to do a three-way call.

      5. SpecialK9*

        There’s usually a manual available online for corporate phones. I had go look mine up online because I couldn’t find it internally. They are super helpful.

    7. SpecialK9*

      My dumb newbie mistakes:
      *I didn’t know that copiers could auto-collate (someone saw me sorting a big stack of paper into 3 piles, gave me a weird look, then showed me the button and how it worked) or that Excel has tabs;
      *Using animation on PowerPoint slides;
      *Wearing too-tight trousers (my body is far outside the norm, though nowadays I can find online specialty shops; but skirts would have been better than my clubbing pants!)
      *Correcting a boss’ error in front of senior managers (eek, don’t do this!)
      *Trying to impress people with how smart I was (it is annoying, turns people off, discourages collaboration you need, and seems insecure – some of the managers I most admired were clearly intelligent but had an ‘oh-shucks I’m just an old [humble position]’ patter, and it paradoxically cemented them as smart)
      *Not asking the dumb questions. So many people don’t ask the dumb questions when they should. (Though sometimes this should be done after a meeting, unless you get a sense that everybody is wondering too.)

  109. superanon this time*

    I know a fair amount of Kiwis hang around here, so here’s a Kiwi school question: I’m an American studying at a NZ university (masters). For one of our classes, the big project is a public exhibition that’s supposed to showcase our masters subject. Our professor, who is leading the whole shindig, has decided that the whole exhibition needs to be about incorporation of Maori knowledge into our subject matter. (Which is not Maori studies, social sciences, cultural studies, or anything along those lines). We have no Maori students in our class, both of our professors are American ex-pats (neither of whom have done any formal study of Maori culture), we have no Maori guidance in any of our structure, and half the class is American, most here fairly recently.

    American racial relations are very, very different from NZ ones (neither is better or worse but each country has very different needs and expectations). The Kiwis in the class are growing increasingly uncomfortable with it; I don’t have the cultural competency to do this well (nor do I feel it should be expected of me academically). This is an incredibly bad idea, right?
    As a foreigner, I feel that I should just say that I don’t feel I have the cultural competency and keep my part of the project as different in scope as possible and stay out of any larger issues unless asked specifically. I really don’t think I know enough about the issue to even say “oh that’s wrong” only “I’m uncomfortable with what you’re asking because of my [totally predictable] lack of knowledge.”

    1. Manders*

      I’m also an American, so take this with a grain of salt, but it might be time to find someone who’s not an American expat in the department or the administration to weigh in on this one. It sounds like this is a public exhibition where you’ll be representing the school, so the administration actually should be aware of this.

    2. Floundering Mander*

      Ooh, I can see this going badly depending on what exactly they are expecting.

      I knew a guy who was doing his PhD studies on an aspect of Maori archaeology and failed to get permission to put photos and quotes in his thesis from the relevant authorities. He ended up having to scrap his whole thesis and didn’t get his PhD, at least not at that institution. It was a bit odd, I thought, because he was a UK/NZ dual citizen and had worked with the Maori before so he should have known better.

    3. Student*

      Try going with “My masters subject doesn’t cover that at all, so I don’t have anything I could possibly present to speak to that. Did we have some miscommunication on the purpose of this exhibit?”

      If they start telling you to do task X to get Maori-relevant knowledge, give them a quote of how much time and/or money it’d take you to do their suggestions, and tell them you obviously can’t possibly do that in time for the exhibit with all your other work/studies. Emphasize that you wouldn’t ever dream of shortchanging such an important matter and couldn’t possibly take any shortcuts to make it faster.

      American academics speak in bluster. You need to bluster better than them in order to graduate. You’re right, so stick to your convictions here.

  110. A person*

    One of my colleagues told me as she was leaving for lunch that she might just quit instead of coming back from lunch. After reading yesterday’s letter, I am so appreciative that she told me first! It’s pretty dysfunctional here but people generally do come back from lunch and quit at the end of the day!

  111. LNZ*

    So this week has been fun.
    Monday was my first day back after having my gallbladder removed and it was our national service orgs 9/11 Day of Service. Which apparently all my subordinates hated. They literally coordinated to trash us on the feedback form we sent out and apparently bragged to another subordinate about how hard they “sh!it on them” in the form. Apparently I’m just the worst leader ever for not being more hands on in the project, on my first day back after having an organ removed.
    Also because the Day of Service was meant to be all day, and then at the last moment was shortens to half day, a few of them thought their sub-site supervisors thought it was still all day and just went home after then got mad at us when they got busted. After finding this out my supervisor sent out a email to all subsite supervisors letting them know it was only a half day event and their worker should have come back after 1pm. Cue a very angry email (written in blue faux-cursive font) from a worker this morning that said we didn’t tell her she couldn’t go home so it’s unfair to get her in trouble for going home.

      1. LNZ*

        Like i was super angry at first, cause being accused of not pulling my weight is a rage button for me. But now it’s almost amusing how immature they are all being. Line one feedback form listed going home as their fav part of the day and everything else as their least fav. They’ve gone to such redic lengths i can’t take any of their critism seriously.

    2. Been There, Done That*

      With all due respect to your medical situation, which is serious, it sounds as if there’s a lot of anger throughout your group of subordinates that needs to be addressed seriously and thoughtfully instead of blowing them off as a bunch of crappy brats.

  112. Lauren*

    NURSING RESUME EXAMPLES – please!

    I can google, but I don’t know what format is a joke and never used vs. what is actually used by nurses. My mom is a new nurse and I want to help her create her resume using an acceptable format, and include all relevant info that only nurses might include.

    Suggestions on type of skills / certifications to include?
    Example URLs?

    1. Airedale*

      My friend is a recent BSN grad and has been getting interviews from their nursing resume.

      I’d reviewed it, so I just pulled it up and their categories are:
      Education
      Clinical Experience (these were from their clinicals in college, not sure if it’d be relevant to non-recent-grads. It conveyed the populations they worked with and location)
      Professional Experience
      Certifications (Licensure, CPR, etc)

      Honestly, nursing resumes are different, and it might be worth your mom seeking out someone in the field for help. Maybe someone from her nursing degree program.

      1. ..Kat..*

        This will appear nitpicky to some, but there is an important difference between a license and a certification. And a license takes more work to get. Don’t list your nursing license under certifications. It makes you look as if you don’t understand your qualifications.

    2. TexasNurse*

      This may be regional, but everywhere I’ve applied, there has been an online application that was mandatory. I think there was a spot where you could upload a resume, but the application is comprehensive (list all jobs for the past X years, lots of specific questions about firings, arrests, etc). I have never uploaded a resume separately, although I do usually print copies of a very run of the mill resume to bring to the interview. At that point, it’s less of a marketing document and more so that if someone is pulled into the interview unexpectedly, they can see my work history. I have been offered a job at every hospital I’ve interviewed with, and have gotten interviewed at all but one (where I didn’t have relevant experience in that specific unit). So I would recommend she reach out to someone in her field if possible to see if a resume is even necessary.

  113. JokersandRogues*

    I saw a job listing asking for “Excellent oral skills.”

    Oh dear. I mildly considered emailing them and recommending “communication” be inserted before skills, but didn’t feel strongly enough. I laughed pretty hard though.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Not to mention some linguists/grammarians would quibble and say what they should really write is “verbal skills, or verbal presetation skills” – if they mean to give presentations out loud in front of others, etc.

      1. Works with 'others'*

        And others would say that “oral” is correct because “verbal” means word skills, whether written or spoken while “oral” strictly refers to the spoken language. That said, “communication” would be an important qualifier there. “Excellent oral communication skills.”

    1. Gnome Ann*

      I would say that this depends highly on both the job and the level of experience or training that the job is expected to require.

      To be fair, I am a Senior Teapot Designer and I still find the time to take a break and comment on AAM. Which is just to say, even 8-5 jobs are rarely 100% busy-all-the-time.

      1. Bad Candidate*

        Well… maybe I should reword. Busy enough that you’re not worried they are going to start thinking that hiring an additional person was a mistake because your role isn’t really needed.

        1. Gnome Ann*

          Hmm. Depending on how long you have actually been there, check in with your manager that you are fulfilling all of the needs that they hired you for. Follow up with asking for extra work to take on.

    2. SpecialK9*

      I’m going to answer a slightly different question, assuming that you’ve already asked managers for more work.

      In this case, look at what online training you can do to make yourself more prepared for your career. You can do short interviews of people who seem like they really get the field: what would you recommend that someone in my position should learn to get ahead/get really good? Any specific training you recommend? Any books?

      You can often read work related books in your browser through the library (Overdrive). Just be aware most companies watch what you do online, usually with a software looking for trigger words, but sometimes actually watching your screen remotely. So don’t read fiction or watch Netflix, and definitely no X-rated anything, at work.

  115. First Time questioner*

    Hello everyone! First real post here, but I’ve been reading AAM for several weeks now and it’s been really educational.
    I work in a small office in academia, and had to lay off my direct report several months ago. It would have been a layoff due to poor job performance, but the timing worked out to put us in the position to redesign and expand the position significantly.

    The bright side is that the person we hired to replace them is working out extremely well – She’s a quick learner, has solid ideas about how the job description I designed should be implemented in real life, and it’s an amazing relief to not have to micromanage someone in order to get work done in a timely manner.

    The downside is that it’s months and months later and I’m still being regularly called upon to give references for my former report to, and it’s getting continually more soul sucking because even when I speak to their strengths, it’s clear that they just did not work out at all in the position. Reference checks in our organization have a set list of questions and can take upwards of 1/2 hour. I’ve been told by HR that I can tell them that I am only able to give them ten minutes and to please prioritize their questions, but it’s still emotionally draining.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for how to manage this process without continually feeling like the bad guy?

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like this is under a year still, so it’s not that long ago. How long had the person worked for you?

      I have a few of those people for whom I have to keep giving references, and I only cut them off when the duration makes it dubious. I don’t think you’re anywhere near that, unfortunately, so I’d either tell this person that you can only give x per semester or just keep doing this as your gift to the cosmos.

    2. Jaydee*

      I’m confused. So you’re giving the reference? As in, you laid off Fergus. Fergus applies for new job. Fergus gives your name as reference. Jane is hiring manager for new job. Jane calls you to ask about Fergus.

      I’m assuming these are all positions at your institution? Is that why they are all asking you the same general questions? You might suggest to Fergus that he apply outside your institution so maybe you’ll have better luck giving a more vague reference.

  116. a girl has no name*

    So my friend just told me about a weird coworker exchange at work and neither of us know how to completely handle it.

    The friend’s company hired Carol 3 months ago. Carol is peers with my friend Maggie (Maggie is not over Carol and vise versa), and their jobs occasionally overlap for events. At these events Maggie has been assigned to take the lead. Maggie sent emails to Carol, Michonne, and Daryl the day before the event to outline when they needed to be there and what their assigned tasks would be. Carol shows up late and says she never saw the email with the arrival time. Maggie is in the middle of coordinating set-up and vendors so she asks Carol to please log into her email and start on the tasks she sent. Carol goes off on Maggie and says she never received an email, that’s why she’s late etc… etc… Proceeds to yell at her in front of their coworkers. Maggie was so taken aback she had to excuse herself (we are both still early on it our careers) Later Carol acts all sweet and asks to talk about what happened and proceeds to say that she feels like an outsider and makes Maggie feel like the exchange was also her fault. Maggie apologizes and says that maybe the email got caught in spam and she doesn’t want Carol to feel like an outsider. They never discuss the outburst. Also, I should mention that Maggie is very sweet and likes to avoid conflict at all costs. She is very well-liked.

    *Maggie pointed out to me that everyone else received the email and somehow Carol knew the tasks that were assigned for the rest of the day without being reminded. (Weird since she never got the email.)

    Leading up to the exchange, Carol has all sort of ideas for people in other roles but won’t invest time and energy into her own role . She has made snide remarks at my friend in the past when my friend, who never had Carol’s role, couldn’t remember how certain things were handled by Carol’s predecessor. Maggie briefly mentioned the exchange to Rosita who manages them both, and Rosita said she would think about it over the weekend and address it on Monday.

    How should Maggie have responded to Carol’s outburst, and should she say anything now after the fact?

    Sorry this is so long!

    1. fposte*

      “Okay, but that’s not really relevant to getting the tasks done, and yelling doesn’t help. Can you log in and we’ll talk about this later?” And walk off and do your work–you don’t have to stay to be yelled at.

      And no, there’s not much point in saying anything else about it now; she told her manager, and bringing it up again to Carol would be weird. I’d advise Maggie to resist Carol’s attempts to drag this into the personal, and I wouldn’t try to amass a negative portrait of Carol’s interactions with people generally.

      1. CM*

        I agree, and I think Maggie should have been less ready to share the blame. I think people who are known for being nice and sweet have a tendency to over-apologize even when it’s not their fault. Maggie should beware of people trying to take advantage of her niceness.

    2. K-Stew*

      In the future, is it possible for Maggie to send the email a day or so earlier than the day before the event? For my job, events I’m a part of are typically outside of my normal scheduled hours (typically weekends), so I’m off during the week to save up hours for the day of the event. I might not be in the office the day before, and therefore would miss the email. Maybe this is what happened with Carol? I don’t have any advice as to how to how Maggie should have responded, as I’m just as conflict averse. These types of situations totally throw me off my game!

    3. Student*

      Yelling, in the moment, when you are the one in power: “You need to go take a walk and cool off a bit. Come on back in 5 minutes and we’ll get started then.” Then turn away to show the interaction is done and you fully expect her to actually go cool off, and assume it’ll be incumbent on you as the boss to re-engage in 5 minutes. Gives you both a chance to not react in-the-moment.

      After the moment, it needs to be addressed, but it’s not unusual that your friend doesn’t have a composed in-the-moment response. Some variant on, “I expect to be treated better than that,” or “That’s not acceptable here” is the message that needs to go out.

  117. Kali*

    I’m a mature student – first going into second year – and last year, I submitted a study to the student paper. It was a survey on how many people get trypophobic symptoms, basically showing that it is a thing and that it is slightly more likely to be triggered by little holes on human flesh than by animals or inanimate objects with the same little holes.

    Anyway, a few weeks later, the editor emails me; paraphrased/summarised; “hey, for future studies, can you provide details of where pictures are obtained from?”.

    Okidokie, I make a mental note to do that and carry on with my day.

    Two weeks later; “Can you confirm you’ve seen my last email?”

    Okidokie, fair enough, he wants to make sure I’m ready for future studies. I respond to confirm I have.

    He comes back with; “can you read it again properly? There are some questions I need you to answer.”

    Grrrrr. I really hate having my intelligence insulted (my mom used to do that, as part of a long campaign against my self-esteem), so I wasn’t going to take this well anyway. But that’s a bit rude, right?

    At this point I realised that he was asking me to answer those questions for the study that had already been submitted and published – even though, at no point had he asked me to answer those questions about that study, so I still wasn’t 100% sure. I’m embarassed to say my response was much pettier than I would like it to have been. Basically “You asked me to answer questions for any *future* studies and I’ve confirmed that I will. You haven’t asked me to do anything else. If you’re trying to say that you want those questions answered for my *past* study, the answers are X and Y”. That might be more polite than what I actually wrote; I’m embarassed to go back and look. I did later send an apology, stating that my original response was not how I wanted to communicate with people professionally.

    What I want to ask is; does anyone have any ideas about how they would have dealt with this situation? And does anyone have good tips about dealing with irritation and annoyance in professional environments?

    1. KR*

      I might have said, “I did read your email thoroughly, and I’m assuming you meant to ask in it what my sources were for the article that was already printed. Here they are:” That person was rude, full stop. I don’t blame you. I try to go for eyebrow raising politeness, kind of like you would treat a customer who is clearly being unreasonable but you still have to be nice.

    2. zapateria la bailarina*

      That person was rude. I would’ve probably responded similarly to how you did.

      When I get irritated at coworkers or people I need to have a professional relationship with, I usually just mark the offending email as unread (as a reminder to myself to come back to it) and step away for a minute. I don’t answer immediately as that is when it is likely I will be unprofessional in return. Then I give myself time to fume and get over it, so to say, so that I can come back more detached. This method only works if you’re not having a real-time discussion though.

    3. CM*

      I wonder if by “for future studies” he meant, for the benefit of people conducting future studies, can you provide details for the study you submitted? Then he got frustrated when you didn’t respond.

      Then again, “can you read it properly” is super insulting no matter how you slice it. If you didn’t understand the question, he should have rephrased it, like “To clarify, I was asking you to provide the details for the study you submitted. Please send me the details by Friday, thanks.”

      1. CM*

        And as for general tips about handling annoyance: don’t hit send! Wait as long as possible, overnight ideally, then imagine that this person had the best possible intentions and/or sadly lacks social skills but is otherwise a good person, and THEN respond while displaying the minimum amount of annoyance you can muster.

      2. Triangle Pose*

        I think this is absolutely what he meant. He wasn’t the clearest but I think OP should have gotten the implication from the “Two weeks later; “Can you confirm you’ve seen my last email?”” I get that he was mean and that’s uncalled for, but OP, surely you can surmise his meaning in a quick re-read of his initial email?

        1. Kali*

          I did figure it out from the next email. Not from the one asking me to confirm that I’d seen the one with the instructions regarding future studies in it.

      3. Kali*

        It was phrased as “when you submit studies in future, please answer these questions”. :/

        Thanks for the tips, they’re really helpful!

    4. fposte*

      I would have said “Sorry, I wasn’t clear that you meant the questions you asked on the paper itself. Here are the answers.” His phraseology was unpleasant, but there’s no point in a snippiness war of emails.

      But I think he may have been disconcerted by your failure to respond to his previous email; citing sources is a pretty big deal, and he had no idea whether you still thought it was okay not to do it. Loop-close unless you’re told you don’t have to.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Okay, so it sounds like he needed some stuff on file about the study. Next time just answer the questions and don’t make it so personal – it sounds like you weren’t very responsive and overlooked some important details. I don’t think he was rude, just frustrated.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        also, when I was an editor I would have expected a response – and for the response to offer details of the current pictures.

      2. Kali*

        I did answer the questions, despite the fact that he never actually asked them! Presumably, that’s what you would have done differently.

    6. Lady Jay*

      Whoo boy. I just wanted to say I sympathized. I took an online class this summer (for reference, I’m a teacher myself, with 9 years’ experience under my belt) and my instructor pulled something similar on me. I’d had trouble with assignment and did as good a job as I could . . . only to discover, when she graded my work, that I’d missed a key part of the assignment. She wrote something like, “Maybe if you’d read the directions carefully. . . . ”

      I actually kinda wish I’d been as “rude” as you were, but we’d had seven weeks of locking horns at that point, and I didn’t want to antagonize her further.

    7. Ann O.*

      Yes. I would have confirmed the email with something like a “sure, I’d be happy to do that if that’s standard practice. What set of details do you need me to include?” I would not have understood what the editor was actually asking for either (at least not from your paraphrased/summarised wording), but it is important to confirm for people that you’ve received the email. Also, I really would have wanted to make sure I knew what specific details the editor needed for the future.

      I understand how from your POV, the editor’s third response was rude. But from his POV, you were rude to not initially respond and then simply say you saw the email without providing the details. He got a little snarky because he was having to ask you for what he needed a third time. The rudeness on both parts was a result of the miscommunication.

  118. T3k*

    Just wanted to post a quick update: I’ve started a new job this week at one of my dream companies! Getting used to how things are done as I’ve never done this stuff before, but everyone is nice and helpful.

  119. Master Bean Counter*

    I think I dodged a bullet this week. I had a phone screen with a recruiter yesterday. After talking about the position, an expansion position, high level, that pulls from duties of the long time office manager and the owner, I was a little concerned.
    Then came the compensation question. I tried to get a range for the position out of them, no luck. Then they asked me how much per hour I wanted. This position sits firmly in the exempt category. I then remembered that the job posting stated that they were offering a HIGHLY competitive salary. So I stated a yearly salary range, dependent upon benefits, that would be enough to get me away from where I am now.
    It took them a minute to start talking again. I doubt I’ll hear back. Made me wonder if they have any idea how much they are going to have to pay to get what they want.

  120. SL #2*

    Happy Friday, everyone! I came in and immediately got a call from our event venue (booked for next week) that our credit card got declined. It was a very large amount and I’d requested a credit limit increase and Finance assured me that it went through. Clearly, it did not. :|

    1. Kelly*

      Ooooh, I’ve been dealing with that all week. We are having a Very Large Important Event next Thurs and the admin’s credit card (that we are supposed to use) keeps getting declined. I let her know 2 weeks ago, and again last week, that I’d be making large purchases with it this week. When I called to let her know, her response was ‘well you’re charging a lot and i haven’t reconciled the card in weeks’. Gee, thanks? So frustrating. Same admin told a PM to put 6 hotel rooms on his personal card because she didn’t have time to fill out a card auth form.

      1. SL #2*

        Grrr! So, I am “the admin” in this situation, where I have access to my boss’ corporate card and I fill out her expense reports, etc., but the finance department is the one that handles the reconciliations and the credit limits and processing. But we got it fixed, so we are no longer in $25k debt to a Large Hotel Chain. Yeah!

  121. Canton*

    My boss keeps messing up (I’d rather use a different word but I won’t).

    She’s spineless, has a terrible memory, eats with her mouth open (lol), takes credit for things she doesn’t do and tries to pass on blame when she messes up. However, I’ve accepted her crap for 3 years. I’ve dealt with worse and I’ve always known that this is not a “forever job.” I’ll leave at some point. However, she’s now…messed with my money (telling me a that I’ll be getting y% raise but then giving me x% (less) and saying it was always going to be that. NOPE. Unlike you, lady, I remember what our conversation was.

    I’m not going to argue with her because it can’t change now and it doesn’t matter. I’ve already started applying/interviewing and meeting with recruiters. Even though she (and several other people) told me last week that “you can never leave!” I’ll be out of here because I don’t need to or want to stay. I’ve put in 4 years, worked really hard, got promoted and did a hell of a job. It’s a great time to move on.

  122. JP*

    I emailed my former manager almost 2 weeks ago asking if I could list her as a reference. I left this job on good terms (was promoted internally, and then eventually left the company altogether when I moved out of state). Should I try contacting again?

  123. Stranger than fiction*

    Happy Friday everyone,
    Any tips for keeping to-dos organized in outlook 2016? We switched earlier this year and for some reason no matter how much I play around with the different view settings for my to-dos, it doesn’t look the same as 2010 did and I’m missing stuff semi regularly now. I usually just flag everything in my inbox first thing in the morning that needs to get done. I tried playing around with categories but that got tedious…any help would be appreciated!
    Sincerely,
    Disorganized in Ca

    1. Footiepjs*

      I don’t use to-dos in Outlook and it’s been about two years since I used 2010 so I don’t really have a solid grasp on the differences. Microsoft does have pretty extensive documentation for Outlook so maybe try support.office.com? There are also bloggers and YouTube videos about Outlook so give those a try.

      Sorry if you’ve already taken these steps!

  124. Durham Rose*

    I have a job interview next week for a Project Manager role- what are the most project manager-y questions I’m likely to be asked?! Very nervous!

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      Oh boy, I’d look up project manager fundamentals on a project manager organization’s website. It varies greatly, but there are fundamentals and some of these sites offer certification. You need to know about scrum, sprints, the difference between waterfall and agile, etc. and have some technical knowledge of the product.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Oops, I thought you needed to know what you should ask about, not what they would ask you, which led me to believe you hadn’t dont it before. My apologies. One thing they’re sure to ask is how you keep organized and what tools you used to do so previously. And theyll probably ask about times wherr something got delayed or delivered late and how you handled it and things like that. (I am not a pm but my bf is so I’m just going off stuff he tells me).

  125. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So I’m applying for a permanent, real-lawyer job at a nonprofit. Mostly focuses on women’s and reproductive rights, and discrimination cases and policy work- which I really enjoy!

    But part of the job is also working with minority activist(s), which I definitely can do and have done in the past- but I don’t want to work somewhere where it seems everyone is trying to out-social-justice each other and be “perfectly” woke. I don’t want to play the Oppression Olympics. My local LGBT group has been jumping all over people for even small, honest language mistakes that the person apologizes for, or, for example, hiring the first person to respond to a request for an odd job instead of hiring the least privileged person. Calling out people for things with no process of proof or evidence.

    I just can’t deal with the kind of drama trying to be the “best” activist causes. Don’t get me wrong, I’m socially aware, but it’s hard to keep up with what the latest woke thing to do or say or change is. So it’s an unusual question, but how does one watch for that kind of nonprofit culture?

    (Also, tongue in cheek here- my classmate works there now so they already have their lesbian. So maybe my being out as nonbinary could be a thing there?)

    1. Manders*

      This is frustrating, because I’m not so sure you can tell whether the culture’s toxic from the outside. I’d strongly recommend having a chat with your classmate who already works there. Fortunately, this nonprofit sounds like it’s focused on concrete actions for change rather than vague ideas, which tends to draw fewer of the “performatively woke but not actually doing anything except maintaining high levels of outrage” crowd.

      My husband’s working at a school that let some really toxic stuff get out of control. Current things his colleagues are outraged about: the existence of smartphones, the existence of technology in general, the existence of Israel, the concept of cities needing increased density. Things his colleagues are refusing to talk about: the fact that the black students’ union is being run by an Asian teacher because there isn’t a single black person on the faculty, the fact that a group of parents forced homeless-friendly services out of the area with constant complaints about their kids’ safety, the fact that the school takes a lot of international students but makes no effort to help them with their culture shock, older male teachers constantly talking over young female ones, and so forth. So–take the job if it’s a step up for you, but be wary of people who talk a good game while perpetuating systematic inequalities, and have an exit plan if things get really bad.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Smartphone outrage is more important than services for homeless kids? I should think a school should be worried more about if kids are learning and eating than global issues it can’t affect!

        1. Manders*

          Oh, it’s even more screwed up that that: the school’s an extremely expensive private high school in the middle of a city with a big homelessness problem. A nearby cafe, totally independent of the school, was letting homeless people use the bathroom and giving them free coffee and food. So many parents from the high school called the cafe to complain about scary homeless people being drawn to the area that they had to stop giving away food and coffee.

          Again, this organization sounds like it’s action-oriented, which is great. It’s the nonprofits with vague mission statements (educate children… to be more woke?) and subjective methods of measuring success (parents aren’t complaining) that can fall into this trap.

    2. CM*

      That job sounds awesome. What does your classmate say about the culture? I think that you could get a good idea about that particular concern during the interview process. You could even mention an example from your LGBT group about people calling each other out aggressively during your interview, and see how they react. (This drives me crazy too — I forget whether it was here or Dear Prudence where someone wrote in about their softball team and how they spent more time arguing about pronouns than playing softball!) Best of luck with your application!

    3. Pwyll*

      overcaffeinated! Slightly off-topic: I’m not sure where you’re located or what your experience level is, but GLAAD in Boston is currently seeking an Attorney. Someone reached out to me recently about it because they were having trouble finding the right candidate, and it sounds like something you might be interested in based on your other posts. Might be worth a quick google?

    4. Temperance*

      I actually know two non-binary folks who use they/them as pronouns, and both of them work at LGBT-focused nonprofits, so this could absolutely be an opportunity for you to be out at work. I know many others in the nonprofit world who share their pronouns more generally even though they are binary.

      I work with similar legal services organizations, and I don’t think you’re going to have people trying to out-SJW you, assuming that you also work with pro bono partners. Your local LGBT group sounds exhausting and well, ineffective. I wouldn’t hire the “least privileged person” for an odd job at my house, I’d hire the person who either responded first or best or seemed most with it.

  126. Amadeo*

    Not really a question for the masses, just a gripe. I got this job last year at the beginning of summer having fled from one regional university to this one to avoid my home state’s budget disaster. You know the one. Well now this state’s governor is having a heyday slashing away at higher ed budgets (why do they always go for education first? I’m sure there’s plenty of pork that needs trimmed) and while I’m sure our budget committee will look at every possible angle first, people are possibly on the block for the next fiscal year. Grandboss just wanted the department to know, so we had a meeting about it today.

    We’re losing a designer to retirement, we’ll have to hold her position for a set number of months before we can even advertise it and we may end up losing it all together. I feel like I have a little security here because while I work in our web branch, my degree is graphic design, so if there’s massive overflow for them, I’m to be passed a few things to help with, provided my own workload can take it (and we also briefly talked to grandboss about moving a few of those print things to web). I am so tired of job hunting that I think I’m just going to ride it out for now, but that hard cider in the fridge at home might be good this evening.

  127. Purple snowdrop*

    My colleague is leaving and I’m half gutted because a heavier workload will fall on me, just when things are bad in my personal life, and half relieved because he’s been slacking pretty much since he started this job and at least I can stop agonising about whether to make my boss actually deal with it, pick up the slack myself, or just leave stuff to get undone and look bad.

    In other news, something I should have finished weeks ago is suddenly due. I’ve had other priorities recently but I would have finished if not for a period of slacking due to aforementioned Badness In Personal Life. Why, when someone asked me about it, did I not come clean instead of saying yeah it’ll be finished by the end of the week? Spoiler alert: It’s Not Finished. I’m in trouble come Monday :(

    1. CM*

      –Why, when someone asked me about it, did I not come clean instead of saying yeah it’ll be finished by the end of the week?

      I cannot tell you how many times I had to make this same mistake before finally learning this lesson. But I can tell you that it feels so much better to come clean and deal with the fallout. Tell them right now! Better than waiting until Monday.

  128. Fake old Converse shoes*

    Someone came to work wearing a skirt SO flimsy her underwear is clearly visible from a short distance. I wish I could unsee it.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      I wonder if she knows and is as mortified as you are. I have on rare occasions put on a piece of clothing that looked fine in my house and then as soon as I got into direct sunlight it ended up being totally see-through (fortunately it’s always been shirts and I wear an undershirt but like… still). H&M is a repeat offender for that sort of thing.

    2. Temperance*

      I have had a few wardrobe malfunctions myself, and honestly, she probably has no clue. I’m the queen of the accidentally visible bra.

      I think it would be a kindness to mention this to her sooner than later, so she can sneak out and change if need be and so she doesn’t wear it to work in the future.

    3. LAI*

      To be honest, I’ve probably done this accidentally when I was younger. It was a combination of not having the best lighting and getting dressed in a hurry and not consciously thinking about it…

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My bathroom light is both kind of dim and a weird tone, so I am forever getting in my car, driving out of my garage, seeing myself in the rearview, and going “Oh, is THAT what color that lipstick is?”

  129. Not Today Satan*

    I recently applied to a job at a big hospital and then a week later got a seemingly automated email prompting me to put in available times for a phone screen. But it really turned me off because a) neither the email nor the website referenced the actual job I applied to and b) the site required that I submit my resume.. again. I’m only low key searching so I’m inclined to not invest time in this when their invitation is SO impersonal. Has anyone encountered something like this while searching (or recruiting)?

    1. CM*

      Yes, automated application systems are often terrible. I wouldn’t read anything into it about the actual hospital or the people there. (Once I decided in the middle of a particularly terrible application process that I was no longer interested in the company… because their business was to make the application software!)

  130. Luku*

    I have been having a very hard time adjusting to a new position that is a significant step up from my previous role. I am being well compensated and I like the culture – I want to stay. However, my position is truly new in that it was created due to expansion of the business and as such I have no precedent. I have been overwhelmed by the volume of work and I have not been managed much at all – I have received minimal training and a large part of the reasoning is that I was hired to assist people who were overworked – so the people who have the knowledge to train me already have CRAZY full plates so it’s almost impossible to find time, plus I feel guilty if I ask (I have still asked for help when needed, but it’s still something that happens as these people have substantial workloads), plus due to this being a small business that is rapidly expanding into “medium business” sizing, there is no training manual or any training materials to rely on – any information needed for training is all stored in peoples brains or scribbled on post its next to their monitors or in word documents on various desktops…….

    I’m floundering. I want to stay at my current position and I have been here for long enough that I feel like I should have a significantly better handling of my position by now…. like I have passed my probation period… but I feel like I am still more of a liability than an asset due to just not being able to know what I am supposed to do and just sort of hacking my way through tasks and only finding out how to properly do something when someone catches a mistake I made and tells me the right way to do something.

    How can I bring this up (I know who I need to talk to), what wording or approach would be best, and what can I suggest to solve the problem? I don’t want to come to them empty handed, I want to be able to at least suggest something that could help…. thanks in advance….

    1. CM*

      First of all, are you sure that others agree you are more of any liability than an asset? Even if you are making mistakes, your coworkers may be cutting you some slack in your new role. Your comment sounds pretty critical of yourself and often conscientious people are doing much better than they think.

      Second, asking for training is totally reasonable and will not only help you with your job, it will help your coworkers because you won’t need them to answer so many questions or correct your work. So it’s not something you should be worried about asking for.

      I would come up with a concrete list of items that you need training on, an idea of who should train you and how they should do it (for example, do you want to shadow them, do you want them to give you a presentation, do you want them to point you to resources), and what you want the outcome to be. Then you can approach the right person and say, “I’m really enjoying the new role, but I need more training on some of my tasks. I came up with this list of items that I’d like training on and some ideas for how it could happen. I know everybody’s really busy and it’s hard to schedule time for training. Could you help me figure out a plan?”

      If that doesn’t work out, I think you should be less hesitant about taking up the time of your coworkers. If somebody catches the mistake you make, ask them all the questions that you need to to understand how it should be done and how you can correct the problem in the future, even if they’re busy and it takes a while. This will pay off when you do it right the next time and they don’t need to intervene.

    2. Jessi*

      You say you have been overwhelmed by the volume of work. Do you have any idea what volume your manager/ supervisor expects you to get through? Could you ask to sit down and talk to them about it? I think saying ‘I normally receive 80 teapot report requests per week and am able to pull together between 50- 60 a week. I’m a bit over whelmed about the other 20-30. Do you expect one person to get through that many? What is my priority when I can’t get through them all’ I think you can also tie this into your own need for management and help as you can self asses ‘I am slowed down by my lack of understanding of the teapot regulations in Zambia – it would help me to gain speed here if I had a better understand of them’ . thats what I would do

  131. DevAssist*

    I was having a conversation with my coworkers the other day…

    Probably 90% of our staff uses Google drive and Google as our email system. Except for our CEO and a couple other staff members, who use Microsoft Outlook. But they still use Google Drive for document storage. Using two systems kind of creates some confusion. Anyone else have an office like this? Just one of those quirky work things!

    1. Pwyll*

      Yup. Old CEO refused to use anything but Outlook, so the company wasn’t able to transition to Google (which most of the line managers wanted). But we still needed to collaborate with clients on Google Calendar and Google Drive. It was a nightmare.

    2. Rex*

      Ugh, don’t get me started! Our office standard is Outlook / sharepoint, but then we use an entirely different database system that has some similar (but more powerful and flexible) tracking abilities that are more centralized but involve a learning curve so half the office just won’t bother to learn. And then some departments use Google docs for some reason. Drives me batty.

    3. Mmm Hmm*

      At a new job my boss explained that the management team used different software than the rest of us because they needed an easier option than we did. They understood that it meant we couldn’t share documents electronically & did it anyway.

      At another company management in one building prioritized updating software, while my building’s team didn’t. We got so far apart that we couldn’t always open each other’s documents.

    4. Chaordic One*

      We still bounce between Google documents and Microsoft Office. We’re supposed to store everything in Google Drive, but then convert them to Word or Excel, and its a PITA. I hate having to reformat things or when we lose part of a spreadsheet formula.

  132. Wendy Darling*

    I am interviewing with a company with the WORST recruiters. All the people on the team I’d be working on are delightful, it’s just the damned recruiters! They’re brusque to the point of rudeness, don’t answer direct questions (such as “You mentioned the possibility of coming in for an interview on Friday — is that something I should be planning on?”), and I’m dealing with two of them and one of them got angry at me because her colleague emailed me a question, I answered it, and he didn’t forward it to her so she assumed I didn’t answer it.

    Also they keep emailing me with questions with double question marks?? Which makes them come off as really pushy???

    Whether I get this job or not I’m giving them some feedback about their recruiters, because if I was any less into this job than I am I’d be out just due to not wanting to keep dealing with these idiots.

    1. YouvwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      I think that I would start sending my replies to both of them. And I would address the lack of response;
      If I do not get a response from , should I automatically assume that the answer is no?
      Two question marks – from professionals?

  133. Corporette wannabe*

    Advice for younger women on networking with men without being hit on? I’m making an effort to stay in touch with my network from my last job instead of no contact until I need a reference, but male colleagues or even supervisors tend to interpret this as romantic interest. Recently, my ex-boss thought we were going on a date when I reached out to him to catch up, and stood me up after I clarified that I wasn’t interested in that. My other supervisor didn’t return my call. Am I doing this wrong? I am conventionally attractive but dress very modestly (stylish, not frumpy though) and I’m definitely not flirty or touchy-feely at all (people say I come off as pretty aloof). What would you recommend?

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Better ex-coworkers?
      I’d just make sure that you’ve explicitly stated that you want to meet up for networking purposes.

    3. Lenora Jane*

      Keep in touch via email? I have a thriving online relationship with the folks at my last job but aside from dropping in (on the public-facing institution, so this is appropriate) when I’m nearby I don’t really see them in person.

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      I’ve found that keeping these relationships to social media and email is the best way to go, unfortunately. The only exceptions I make are if it’s someone I sometimes hung out with socially when we worked together; then it seems less weird to catch up in person. If you ever go to networking/industry type events where people from your old job show up, I’d also make it a point to go say hi and catch up with them there.

      1. Corporette wannabe*

        Thanks for the advice, I’ll try that on the future. Ex-boss had taken me to working lunches a few times while I worked for him though, so I was surprised he took this differently. :/

        1. Princess Carolyn*

          Definitely sounds like he’s kind of a creep. Unfortunately, lots of dudes in management are creeps, so I hesitate to classify him as an outlier.

    5. Jennifer*

      Try to get female contacts. I hate to say that and it may not be possible, but…. some guys will take any contact as sexual interest, even if you are the least sexy woman on the planet. I’ve been burned way too many times on that one. Sigh.

    6. Triangle Pose*

      These guys sound like creeps.

      Real advice? Suggest breakfast before work or coffee during the work day. I wouldn’t do lunch, drinks, anything after work or after the sun goes down. This isn’t your fault. It’d be pretty delusional for an ex-boss or coworker to think I want to go on a date with them if I suggest we meet at a starbucks to get coffee or eat eggs.

    8. Student*

      Make it clear what the meeting request is about upfront. Never say you want to just “catch up”. You could say you’re meeting with folks from your professional network, ask to talk to discuss something industry-specific you both work in, want to tell them about something work-related they may be interested in, want to ask their advice about specific work-topic. Say something with a clear work-relevant agenda.

      Also – invite more than one colleague out to these (make it clear to all it’s a group invite). Even if only one person shows up from the group, there’s an understanding by all that this was not about meeting up with one specific person.

      If they take something like that and assume you really just want a date, then that’s a poor reflection on them. But if you leave the reason for the meeting open-ended, then they will fill in the reason as being whatever they’d most like it to be, or they will assume there’s a good chance for them to set the agenda of the meeting to be what they want it to be. Don’t get me wrong, it’s unpleasant-to-sleazy for them to assume a woman who wants to talk to them must be looking to hook up. But I admit, I always assume people who want to meet with me want to discuss whatever is important to me at the time, so sometimes I get blindsided when my assumptions/preferences are far off from whatever they had in mind but didn’t say explicitly.

  134. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Also, office snack problems:

    The guy who shares an open office setup next to me eats a LOT of potato chips. Fairly neatly, actually, so that’s not the issue.

    It’s just LOUD, and I do a lot of translating legal stuff lately- but at the same time everyone eats at their desk. The crunching can literally drown out my audiobook or podcast!

    Also, there’s this lady who takes a lot more than her share of communal snacks. Once, I brought cookies (three dozen for an office of 30 or so?) She literally ate 6-8. Any snack and she’s on it like white on rice, usually taking several servings. I’d be sympathetic if she was actually not able to eat, but she always brings snacks and sometimes lunch, or buys them. It’s more healthy stuff- eats that, then a bunch of office desserts.

    I don’t understand. And being Minnesotan, no one will confront her.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      I can think to two ‘Minnesota Nice’ ways to handle it.

      A) Bring in so many cookies that everyone gets 6-8. If anyone mentions it, comment that because some people felt ate so many, you wanted to make sure nobody went hungry. Minnesota Nice version of a guilt trip.

      B) Bring in 3 dozen cookies, but hand wrap 6 of them in a box with the employee’s name on them. Comment that you know she loves your cookies so much that you wanted to make sure she personally got 6. Minnesota Nice version of passive aggression.

      1. Gnome Ann*

        Ooh, I wish we could “like” comments on here. I take perverse pleasure in being passive aggressive to people who you just *know* are pushing boundaries because they can.

      2. Lady Katherine of Boone upon Avon*

        I’m a fellow Minnesotan AND workplace eater. I thought this was about me for half a second! I frequently bring in treats to share and others do as well. If I brought it in, heck yeah I’m gonna eat a whole bunch, I don’t care if anyone sees me enjoying my handiwork. But if someone else brought it or there isn’t very much (like 12 cupcakes for the entire office of 45) I will skip it so others can enjoy them.

        I eat lunch and snacks at my desk most days and really hope that if I were bothering someone, they’d let me know. Maybe buy him a bag of his favorite chips and ask him to pretty please eat them quieter or eat them at home?

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Hehe big debates here about if it is rude to eat loud foods in a cube farm. Personally I put in the headphones and start blasting the 1982 hit “Gloria” when my cubemates start to irritate me. It’s easier than trying to convince them to switch to soft foods.

  135. curmudgeon*

    20 second rant..
    CEO (we are a 10 member staff)made big fuss over dress code before I was hired (no jeans, businesswear, professional, etc). She walks around in flappy flip-flops & bare feet all summer. Ack. Hate the noise & the look….

  136. A Nonny Mouse*

    I am contemplating a career change.

    Currently a librarian, which I mostly enjoy, except that working with the public is making me cynical about humanity and my schedule recently changed so that I’ll be working 4 weekends (Saturday + Sunday) in a row. That’s gonna wreck my social life.

    I am highly curious about working as a freelance proofreader/copy editor. How do I get started? What is the market like? How much time does it take to go from zero to a fairly self-sustaining career?

    1. Lore*

      Speaking as someone who hires a lot of proofreaders and copy editors, I can say breaking in is the hardest part. We have skills tests we use but you need to meet one of a handful of criteria to even qualify for the test: a resume that shows some experience with editing or proofreading, ideally long firm work; a personal reference or referral from a colleague; recent completion of a reputable course with a referral from the instructor. If you pass the test I’ll put you into our freelancer pool but it can still take a while to build up regular work. Authors tend to like the same copy editor from book to book so it can be hard to break in there, and if a schedule is tight, I’m likely to hire someone I know is reliable rather than someone new. The work can also br very feast or famine, so getting a steady consistent workflow is hard till you’re in the top tier of freelancers.

      I could go on about this all day but I won’t! Post any other questions you have and I can answer them.

  137. Grateful lurker*

    Never commented much here before but I have read a lot. Just wanted to say thanks because I was able to use info from this site to help my daughter in her first post-college job.
    She works in the office of a manufacturing company, and last week her boss announced everyone in the company was no longer hourly but was now classified as exempt.
    Later in the same meeting, it was announced that all employees would now have to work 2 Saturdays a month on the manufacturing floor. And since they were now all exempt, they would not be paid overtime.
    My daughter was ranting to me about these changes, and (remembering discussions here on what is and isn’t classified as exempt) I was able to reassure my daughter that this was a highly questionable move and she could push back. I sent her to some resources to read and helped her come up with a script she could use to talk to her boss and HR, questioning the sudden exempt classification of all employees right before requiring additional weekend work.
    She approached her supervisor and HR, had some good discussion they took back to the company president and while she (and all the other employees) will still have to work Saturdays, the company will be following overtime laws and paying all the employees overtime wages for that time.
    And my daughter gained some confidence in how to speak up for herself in a professional environment. Now she just has to “cross train” to the production floor.

  138. AdAgencyChick*

    Poll: What do you think your coworkers say about you behind your back?

    I think mine say that I get things done really fast, but that I’m also a hard-ass and that I swear too much.

    1. Murphy*

      That I’m unfriendly or standoffish. (I am shy and socially anxious and my job keeps me alone at my desk most of the time, so I don’t get as much face time as I need to feel less anxious.)

    2. Floundering Mander*

      That I’m slow and incompetent with a bad attitude, and that’s why they don’t want to hire me again. (I’m feeling cynical and down on myself after a bad experience in November).

    4. Gnome Ann*

      My job looks like just coloring (I’m a graphic designer). They’re not sure why I need an office. I’m irritating for holding them to deadlines that were previously very loose before I came onto this position. Why I can’t just “do it for them.”

    5. Purple snowdrop*

      That I overreact and overexplain.
      That I’m too nice for my own good.
      I should ask my colleague who’s leaving if those things are true :)

    7. anon24*

      That I have a badmouth and that I’m a rebel with an attitude who generally doesn’t give a shit but who works my ass off anyway because that’s what the company pays me to do.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      I have a coworker who will tell you what he’s been saying behind your back, but phrase it like he’s been defending you. “People say X about you, but I tell them that’s not true.” Apparently I “have an agenda,” I’m ambitious, and I’m a pawn of our Managing Director. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  139. Tabby Baltimore*

    Hope I’m not too late, but wanted to jump off from a comment made (I think) in last week’s open thread about federal workers’ blogs. I believe Alison mentioned that AAM wouldn’t be hosting a separate “feds day” b/c their questions are handled in other forums. I don’t know what those other forums are that she’s referencing. Can anyone recommend any U.S. federal worker blogs you like? I realize that I’m asking for a lot of moderation from Alison, and I extend my appreciation in advance. Thank you.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Just to clarify, I don’t know if there are blogs on that topic. Someone had suggested that I do a post on applying to federal jobs and I explained that it’s not my area of expertise and so I couldn’t write it (or vet if it someone else did), but there are other places to get that info. They might not be blogs or forums, but definitely if you google for info about applying for federal jobs, you should find a ton out there on it.

    2. Pwyll*

      When I worked for the Feds I used to skim through FedExec and Fedweek. They’re not really blogs though, so much as niche newspapers.

    3. FedToo*

      The federal government directly employs > 4 million people, from unskilled labor to Senior Executive Service. My experience is that the agencies differ widely, to an extent where there would be limited value in general discussion. There are some commonalities, but (at some level), there’s not really a way to identify those (I don’t think).

      In my current and former agency, we would be prohibited from having a blog or newsletter or advice column about federal employment.

    4. GiraffeSpots*

      In my experience with multiple agencies, it is expressly prohibited to have *any* sort of personal public presence (e.g. Blog) discussion federal employment or workplace.

      Also, I think your inquiry is probably too vague. With > 4 million direct employees, you probably would have better luck narrowing down to the agency, specialty level or job code level (Doctor? Operations? Engineer? Electrician? Cook? Law enforcement? Painter? Graphic artist?) The rules and regs also differ by job type, and there are agency and locality level exceptions, so it’s sort of like asking “can you recommend any good blogs about living in the US?” It’s just to broad!

      But don’t be dissuaded. I have found it an excellent place to work and to develop professionally!

      1. GovHRO*

        So I just searched fedsmith and govexec, which are two of the better ones, but didn’t see any articles that got it 100% right. For example the article discussed veterans preference, but didn’t include the caveat that not all veterans qualify (must serve during wartime or have a specific service medal). Many veterans who served during the 80s don’t qualify.

        Also, the articles didn’t highlight the two most important words in any usajobs.gov posting (where federal jobs are posted). The words are “specialized experience.” You must have the require specialized experience (usually defined in a couple of paragraphs or some bullets) for anything over really entry level positions. If you have that “specialized experience” you’ll want to make sure it’s explicitly sprinkled throughout your resume (enough for someone to know that you have more that a year of it) or the HR specialist won’t be able to find you minimally qualified. After that, you must still meet all the other qualification requirements and perhaps should be more explicit that you would in a private sector resume.

        So I’m typing this and thinking of a 1000 rules. Too much.

  140. LAI*

    How do you greet or say goodbye to work colleagues when the relationship is too familiar for a handshake but not close enough for a hug? I’m in a pretty casual environment (public university) so handshakes are really just for first meetings/introductions. But I feel like hugs are only for people you know well/have worked with for a long time/maybe even are friends with outside of work. Also, the threshold for hugs is much higher with the opposite gender (I’m a woman, and I pretty much will never initiate a hug with a male coworker). What about all the people who fall in between? I try to greet them with a smile and a warm tone of voice, but stay far enough away so that it’s clear physical contact is not expected. It usually feels just a bit awkward though…

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I don’t know but I can say as a woman I ALWAYS get offered the hug by acquaintances and my male boss almost never does. He just doesn’t scream “cuddly” somehow.

    2. Gaia*

      I smile warmly, say “hey” and maybe give a little low wave (like hand near my side/abdomen level. It shows friendliness and and affection but isn’t exaggerated or familial.

      I have definitely been hugged by colleagues. It is always a little odd to me since I don’t hug many people. I huge my mother, my grandparents, my nephew and my best friend (but she only gets hugs now that she lives clear across the country from me and I rarely see her). Everyone else gets a wave and a warm smile.

      Interestingly, I’ve never had a male colleague hug me (I am a woman) and I’ve never had an American colleague hug me but my European colleagues and Asian colleagues do whenever we see each other. Even when we are working at the same office for weeks at a time. They are all from wildly different cultures, too. Maybe it is us that are odd?

    3. MsMaryMary*

      I have a lot of clients who are huggers, so if they want to hug we hug (I prefer to shake hands). As a middle ground, you could shake hands and give a shoulder/upper arm clap with the opposite hand. I’ve used a two hand shake (shake hands and out the opposite hand on top) for more emotional moments. For example, at my boss’s father’s wake. My boss is NOT a hugger but I wanted do something a little more supportive than just shaking hands.

    4. hermit crab*

      Ha, I was just thinking about this because my colleague from another office (who I work with very closely but almost never see in person) was at my location last week. We had a weird do-we-hug-don’t-we-hug moment and it was a tad awkward. I kind of turned it into a handwavy “welcome to this office” thing.

      I feel like men tend to go for a handshake in this situation (maybe a handshake-slap-on-the-back combination?) but as a woman I think I’ve only ever initiated handshakes upon first meeting a person or if it’s a super-formal situation. I usually hug my close personal friends hello and goodbye, but hugging in the workplace seems uncomfortable. (Though I agree that I probably would’ve hugged the coworker in question if he was a woman.) Anyway, you’re not alone!

  141. Remoter?*

    For about a year now I’ve been telling my boss I need to move to another state and would like to work from there. Initially there were vague promises of creating a new position for me (I can do my position remotely, other people are successfully doing it and I have a history of doing this job remotely but…alas it won’t be allowed here for reasons unspoken). Then, that was dropped and there was talk of me moving into a new role as part of another department if it gets created. Those talks have been vaguely in place for the last 6 months.

    I am part of a large scale project that was initially supposed to end in July. I agreed to staying on through July and then either moving into this new position or leaving altogether. Then the project go pushed back to November. I wanted to see it through so I agreed to stay through the end of the year but made it clear either needed this new position or I would need to leave. Now it is set to complete in June. This will be nearly 2 years after I told them I need to change.

    Today I told my boss that I fundamentally have to have something change. I cannot and will not agree to stay on through June without a solid offer in place for the new position. If we cannot arrange that by November, I will need to put in my notice. Right after that call I was called by boss’ boss who asked me about my plans and explained his vision for this new role and asked if it aligned with what I was thinking (it does).

    I get the strong impression no one thought I would actually leave if this didn’t happen. Unfortunately, I am the only one trained to do what I do for this project and no one else has any interest in picking it up (I enjoy it and want to move my career in this direction). In addition, this work needs to continue permanently after the project is complete and is more than enough for a full time role.

    Here’s hoping something comes of this. I don’t want to quit but I cannot stay forever. I need to move and I’d prefer to take this job with me.

  142. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

    I need some career advice…
    I got promoted last year from an admin assistant to running my own department. Its a niche area but I’m relatively happy with the job itself. The problem is I live in a very high cost of living area that’s isolated. I have been looking around but I really cannot feasibly find a cheaper place to live. I’ve been in my position for a bit over a year now and I have accomplished a lot. Like a lot a lot. I’ve successfully completed major reporting that has allowed the organization to stay afloat (so a big jump in responsibility from previous position but with little pay change). My bosses are pretty happy however, due to budget cuts, grants issues, and natural disasters, I’m not going to get promoted. At least not for a couple of years. As it stands, I’m just breaking even financially, and every time something unexpected comes up I have to dip into my meager savings.

    Since I’m still new to this career path I feel I’m in a bit of a bind. I can stay and hope and pray that I get a significant raise soon, or I can leave. I’ve been looking at jobs the last several months and it seems like many organizations set up their departments in a way that is inaccessible to me at the moment (having one director or VP, and with only 15 months of experience, I’m not really at that level yet). I have found a couple of Assistant Director positions across the country (they are very rare) which pay about $10k more and are in very low cost of living areas. So I went ahead and applied, knowing full well that if I get the position I would need to stay at the organization for quite some time. Good, right?

    Well my parents think its the worst idea ever. (I’m currently staying with them due to unforeseen circumstances and had to commandeer the communal computer which is how they were even moderately roped in on the situation). I’m 30. I DESPERATELY want to get on the property ladder – I’m currently spending about 70% of my take home pay on rent/utilities. If I made a move like this I would increase my pay, my title, and the low cost of living in the areas would make it possibly for me to actually save money. They believe it would be a disaster because of how much it costs to move and what if I don’t like it, etc. But in my current location, I will NEVER be able to afford a place and with the rents always increasing I’m not sure how long I can stay afloat…

    I do realize that without being offered a different job this is a moot point but should I spending so much time skimming for jobs/perfecting my resume/cover letter?

    Thoughts?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      I’d move to lower COL area if I were you.
      I’ve made that move once and it was so nice to be ahead of my bill and actually be able to afford a life.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Also this doesn’t have to be permanent, and could be a great way to move up the career ladder: a 5-7 year relocation, in which you could hope to buy a house and see some appreciation. Then when you’re closer to the top end, you could move back.

        1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

          This is basically my thought. There’s an area of the US that I would love to live in (not where I live now), and in my research and vacations to the area it’s very apparent that if I would like to live there now I’d have to take a big pay cut and a job that’s a big step down. My thinking is if I can get a job that’s a step up with more pay in a low COL area (think middle of Texas), I can get on the property ladder, start saving (and feel financially secure for the first time ever), maybe get a terminal degree in my area which would boost my career opportunities, and then in 5-7 years start eyeing my dream area again.

          1. Temperance*

            So I would caution you that property in low COL areas is not necessarily a good investment. Where I grew up, you can buy a duplex for $140k, and a regular, decent-condition house for like $60k. That’s because no one wants to live there and there are no jobs.

    2. JokersandRogues*

      Why not put a spreadsheet together with all the costs/income including moving costs? This would help you make a decision more easily and prepare you for any costs that you hadn’t thought of. Do a step by step of a move to help you spot hidden costs.
      You might be able to share some high-level information with your parents to help reassure them but really it’s more for you to feel more confident about either decision.

    3. LAI*

      Well at 30, I think there are other factors to consider. Like, do you want to buy property in one of those lower COL areas and would you be happy settling down there in the long term? I made a big move at 30 to one of the highest COL areas in the country because that’s where I have family and where I wanted to be in the long run. I didn’t want to make connections/meet someone/get settled, etc. and then get “tied down” in an area where I ultimately didn’t want to live and raise a family.

      Also, I don’t know if this works everywhere but in my high COL area, people make do by either getting a roommate, or by living outside the urban center and dealing with a long commute.

      1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

        I live on an island so moving outside the center and having a longer commute isn’t really an option. My current lease forbids a roommate (nice, huh?) and I have looked at alternative accommodation (even put an ad on craigslist) but I have two dogs and everyone that responded has an animal as well, which is fine by me, but the cheaper rental properties an complexes in my area have a two pet limit and those that don’t are more expensive and then I’m back where I started. I’m going to keep looking but with recent events in the area, there is going to be a greater surge of people looking for accommodation.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s possible that (whether it’s conscious or subconscious) your parents are pushing against you moving just because they don’t want you to leave. Which means you won’t be able to convince them it’s a good idea.

      1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

        Well I currently live about 3 hours from them and am only staying with them until I’m allowed to go back to work (due to natural disaster), but yes I suppose it’s possible.

      2. Mephyle*

        Even if they don’t consciously realize it themselves.
        Anyway, the answer is to weigh your options and possibilities and go on pursuing what is best for you without attempting to convince them.

  143. Celia*

    I worked at an internship for course credit over the summer at a small nonprofit. Problem is, my supervisor was fired near the end of my internship and I was left to finish up with a different, offsite supervisor who did not oversee much of my work. I am now a new grad looking for work, and I don’t know how to deal with this in interviews. This internship provided me great experience, and so I’d like use them as a reference. Should I ask someone I worked closely with but wasn’t my supervisor, or the off-site supervisor who didn’t get to know me very well? If I’m asked who my supervisor (these internships are well-known and required for my degree) was in an interview, what should I say? I don’t know why my supervisor was fired but I know it was for something unethical.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Do you have the contact info for your original supervisor, or can you find him via LinkedIn? If so, I would reach out to him to ask if he would be your reference, considering that he oversaw more of your work than the off-site supervisor. As a backup, ask both your off-site supervisor and if possible, another colleague (one you worked closely with) to serve as additional references.

      Then just say to interviewers, “John Doe was my original supervisor, though he’s no longer with the organization. His current contact info is X. The person who supervised me towards the end is Bob Evans, and I’d be happy to put you in touch, though I don’t know that he’d be able to fully speak to my work. My colleague, Jane Smith, worked closely with me on Project X and can serve as another reference.”

      If you can’t find your original supervisor’s contact info, swap that for something like, “My original supervisor left the organization and unfortunately, I do not have his current contact info, but Bob Evans supervised me for the last few weeks and can speak broadly to my work. If it’s helpful, I can put you in touch with Jane Smith, who was a colleague, but knows my work well.”

      1. Celia*

        Thank you so much, it’s very helpful to have a script! I have my old supervisor’s personal phone number, but he left the organization on pretty poor terms and I was told there was some serious ethical issues going on with his work, which makes me unsure I would want to use him as a reference. I think the second option could work well.

  144. JD*

    I don’t wan to use Linkedin. I don’t wanna, no way, no how. I keep my social media accounts very private and only have family and some high school friends on there. I like my privacy. I despise the idea of having to use Linkedin and proving anyone out there with my personal information. I just cannot stand the thought of this. I also find most of it to be complete BS. I know someone who can barely turn on her computer who had friends endorse her for her PC skills. Massive eye roll. Why does a potential employer need to know that I am connected with Betty from Old Company. I get it is a way to keep in touch with people to become aware of potential opportunities but there are other ways to do that. My resume has the needed info. I also have a past stalker type person (restraining order) that frankly doesn’t need to be able to find me.

    I have asked some about this and they just say “well depends on your industry if you need to use it”. Helpful. The work I do is not industry specific. Is there truly no way of getting around this silliness while job searching? I am just so adamantly against having a page.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Wait, so do you need a LinkedIn profile? Are you having trouble getting a job, and people are telling you “Well, you need a LinkedIn profile in order to get one”?

    2. Pwyll*

      So don’t get one. Lots and lots and lots of people don’t have one and still get hired for jobs. In fact, I think it’s worse to have one that clearly hasn’t been updated in 5 years than it is to not have one at all.

      So long as you’re not in high tech, or applying for social media jobs, I’d just stick to “Oh, I’m not a big social media person.” any time the question came up.

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      If you were neutral and asking me “Is it worth it?” I’d say yes because there are some benefits to having a LinkedIn and they’re very easy to set up and maintain. But since you’re this strongly opposed, I say skip it and you’ll be fine. Unless you’re an HR recruiter, I don’t think the potential benefit is worth the discomfort this will likely cause you. As you mention, a lot of LinkedIn is BS, which is why most people won’t think it’s outrageously weird to not have one.

    4. LAI*

      I don’t understand. Is someone telling you that you *have* to be on LinkedIn? There might be some industries where not being on LinkedIn will cause you to miss opportunities, but if you’re ok with making that sacrifice, that’s your choice. You’ll just be limited to searching in the industries or specific companies that don’t use LinkedIn, which is plenty.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Agree. I see job hunting advice blogs that say you need it and it probably falls in the realm of “can’t hurt, could help!” – but I don’t have one and nobody has ever cared. I assume it’s only critical in certain fields where networking is highly valued like marketing/comms.

      2. JD*

        Yes pretty much everyone is saying i need to have Linkedin. I am not so much having trouble getting jobs as i have barely begun looking but just in chatting with some friends who are also professional contacts they all say I really MUST. Looking for more perspective from AAM readers about how important they think it is. I do a lot of hiring and I will google someone quickly, so if I see they have one I will look at it but I really don’t bat an eye if there isn’t one.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Oh, I have some friends that say that – sure, great, whatever. They also want me to download every new app that comes along and to “check in” everywhere I go on FB. If no hiring manager is saying it to you, I’d disregard it. UNLESS you’re in comms, journalism, marketing, or social media stuff.

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Can you tell us what industry you’re in? That might help us shed some more insight. For the most part, I agree with the others – not having a LinkedIn presence is not a dealbreaker for most industries. I could see it being important for recruitment, social media, and sales. But other than that? I would be perfectly content with you telling me that it’s just not your thing.

    5. H.C.*

      Agreed with LAI, you don’t have to use LinkedIn – but you’ll self-select yourself out of employers who use that as part of their hiring/recruitment processes. Also, you might want to poke around its privacy settings area – which may assuage some of your concerns about who can see your info & how much of it is displayed.

      RE: Endorsements, FWIW – I don’t think anyone takes them seriously; recommendations carry more weight (since it’s a written narrative on the recommender’s part, not just a “click to endorse”) but even then, YMMV about that too.

    6. Anita H*

      I refuse to use any social media, partly because my career relies heavily on respecting IP and confidentiality. When asked why I don’t use it, I’ve always explained that and had the answer respected.

      Unless you’re in a field like SEO or marketing, I think it’s still feasible to abstain.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I’m the same. I have absolutely zero social media and I’ve been that way since the last year at university. I do it because I’ve never understood the point (from my perspective) of having Facebook or Twitter. I had LinkedIn for work (recruitment) but I hated having to use it. I deleted it 5 minutes before I walked out the door on my last day and didn’t look back.

  145. kittymommy*

    I am not in a good headspace today. I’m currently living with some friends (hurricane irma) as until this morning my road wasn’t passable and now is only mildly so. I have no power and can’t get a hold of anyone to see if I need to do anything. My clothing consists of a handful of tops, 2 jeans and 1 pants. Gas is at a premium so travel is limited. I’ve been pretty good not letting any of this get to me, but today I have cried at work 2x. I work for the local government and everyone is calling to complain and in many cases yell. I’m killing their animals, I’m killing their family, why won’t I make (private) companies do “x”, etc. What broke me this morning waa I asked a colleague if we had a different number for a business. They said yes and they’d have Wakeen call me with it. Well Wakeen did , along with a 5 minute lecture of how I waa wrong, a horrible person, he only is doing because he was told to. He actually said he waa trying to say this all and not sound mean. I can’t go home, I haven’t been able to get any clothes, my cats are freaking out and I’m just done. And now I’m crying again!
    Sorry for the rant guys!

    1. Manders*

      Oh, that’s awful. I’m sorry you have to go through this, and I hope your home’s ok and you’re able to get back there soon.

      Is it possible to spread the pain out in your department a little by having everyone rotate time on the phones, or is this something you’ve absolutely got to do?

    2. Amber Rose*

      I’m so, so sorry about all your stress. I hope you can find some time today to do something really nice for yourself, because you deserve it for still sitting there at your desk, putting on a brave face and talking to complete a-holes.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Blergh much love to you. When I get negative calls at work I have to repeat to myself “this is not truly personal. They are saying these things to the situation / the company, not me. It is only my job as a representative of the company to politely receive this feedback, not absorb it.” I have also told myself maybe one person felt better after yelling at me so maybe I did “help” in a circumstance where I’m only a small cog in a big wheel and can’t really do much to solve his problem (your mileage may vary in how helpful you find that thought).

    4. Temperance*

      Whoa is Wakeen a colleague? Because he can’t talk to you like that. I understand how awful it must be to deal with the general public – I started screening my calls because a few wackjobs have decided that I’m satan because I won’t give them free legal help – but I can’t even begin to imagine how difficult it is to be in the situation you are, as much or more of a victim than they are, and them treating you like crap.

    6. Anion*

      I hope you’re having a better day today. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with all of this.

      And EFF Wakeen.

  146. Diane Nguyen*

    What are your tips for applying to jobs you’re not quite qualified for? I’ve found a listing I’m super interested in and I really believe I could be great in the role — but I don’t have most of the experience they’re looking for. It’s not just in years (I have 7 years of professional experience and they ask for 8), but in some of the specific knowledge/skill areas. I have knowledge of all the things they list, but not the depth of experience they’re looking for — mostly because I haven’t been able to find jobs that will help me get that experience.

    This job is in media, btw, so I think there’s a slightly better chance that I can grow into the role vs. more technical fields. I’m just having a hard time making my case in my cover letter.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Just apply and hope someone takes a chance on you. That’s how I’ve gotten jobs I’m not technically qualified for. It just means instead of 1/3 applications resulting in a phone interview, it may be more like 1/10.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I try to explain what skills and experience I have that cross over and also explain why I’m interested in switching fields. For some people, that doesn’t fly, and my résumé gets thrown in the trash. But all it takes is one person to give you a chance. The odds are against you, for sure.

    2. miyeritari*

      Just apply regularly. If someone likes your resume, background, cover letter enough, they’ll overlook the specific requirements (especially if you can impress you’re a quick/good/fast learner.)

    3. Kathenus*

      I’d suggest that you craft your cover letter specifically to let the employer know why you’d be a good match for the position in spite of not having some of the skills noted in the job posting. As a hiring manager, it bothers me when I have applicants who don’t meet the minimum qualifications and who don’t address this in their cover letter. If someone makes a persuasive case why they might still be a candidate, I’m very open to it. But it’s a pet peeve for me if they don’t even address it, as if they hope I won’t notice that they don’t meet the guidelines in my own posting.

    4. Simone R*

      There’s pretty good research suggesting that men are more likely than women to apply to jobs that they are not 100% qualified for. So when I’m doing something I don’t feel comfortable with I attempt to channel the most overconfident, annoying guy I knew and imagine that I’m him. Not super specific advice, but it does help me get into a better headspace

    5. Luku*

      I heard excellent advice recently…. “always aim for the confidence of a mediocre white male”…… as in, many of those types of men wouldn’t think twice about applying to these and acting like they’re ideal candidates even if they never make the first cut. I have heard of studies that also say that women tend to apply only to jobs they meet 90%+ of the requirements for, whereas men tend to apply to jobs they meet 50%+ of the requirements for. Realizing that what you’re doing is against a gender norm may help you get through it… you’re doing something that society pushes us away from. Go you! Change for the better.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, apply to the job if you think you can do it, not if you tick off all the boxes they present in the listing.

      2. Zip Zap*

        Yeah. I’ve worked alongside many a white male who was noticeably under-qualified but got the job because of confidence. I learned from that. I became more confident when applying for jobs. I still haven’t mastered it, but there is an art to bragging about your skills in your resume.

        Here’s one thing that’s worked. I list any projects that sound cutting edge and intriguing even if they’re not directly related to the job description. That way you come across as a strong candidate with skills they could benefit from, just not an exact match to the ad they posted.

  147. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I’m not actively looking for a new job – I like my current job and am excited about some of the projects on the horizon. But I threw my hat in the ring for a job that I happened to stumble upon and couldn’t NOT apply to, and I’ve somehow managed to get to the second round of interviews.

    Now I am silently freaking out about what happens if I really like the job, get an offer, like the offer (there’s a chance the offer could come in way too low – different industries – and I’d have to turn it down), and then have to tell my boss and my team that I am leaving.

    The problem is that one of the major projects coming up is incredibly complicated and there has already been a lot of turnover on the project team, so my boss and I are the only ones who have institutional knowledge and experience to make the project a success. (The high turnover is not indicative of the work environment or the project – it’s just a coincidence of timing.) I’m feeling super guilty about even considering leaving.

    I don’t think I really have a question here; I’m just preemptively freaking out about a what-if scenario and needed to put the words somewhere other than inside my brain!

    1. Nanc*

      I’m going to be macabre and point out that if you or your boss unexpectedly died they’d have to find a way to work around it on the project. If the job is a good fit for your career path and you really want it, go for it. In the meantime, do all you can to document/share your institutional knowledge. Good luck.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        You’re totally right.

        I think I’d also explore avenues to stay on at Current Job on a part-time contractual basis through the project’s end (there’s a specific end date) and do both jobs at once. So there’s a potential solution.

        I think my least favorite feeling is knowing that I can’t solve a problem until the problem actually presents itself. It brings out my worst kind of anxiety!

        1. Nanc*

          Ah, another person who likes to pre-worry! Why wait until there’s an actual crisis when we can fret ourselves into a frenzy right this minute! The part-time contractual thing might be a good fit for everyone–they can tap into your knowledge and you give up the day-to-day blech stuff.

  148. Volunteer Enforcer*

    I have good news to add. Thanks to Ask a Manager I’ve landed a promotion in local government (from Administrator to Admin Officer). Really excited about starting.

    1. Administrative Technician Extraordinaire*

      Congratulations! I’m an Admin Technician, and work under an Admin Officer in national government and AO is a cool role with a lot of responsibility (at least in my department). I hope you like it!

  149. Young and Managing*

    I’m really curious since I have a ton of stories myself (and smile whenever I think about them)…..what’s the strangest or funniest thing you’ve ever had a candidate do during an interview?

    I’ll start.

    1. For every question, she picked up a stack of notes and read off the answer she thought would answer the question the best. When I asked her to stop reading her answers and just speak with me…….there were tears.
    2. The candidate was telling me a story and in the middle said, “we’ll you won’t remember this because you’re a millennial and probably don’t understand” and then I stopped listening.
    3. The candidate used to work at a daycare and used an example of changing diapers to answer a question. It would have been fine except for the explicit details that made me want to vomit.
    4. The candidate asked me when I graduated college. I replied by saying where I went to school and how it lead to my career now. She then asked specifics about how long I’ve been in each job prior, how long I’d been in my role, and why I don’t have more experience. ……she didn’t get the job
    5. They asked if I’m single because I wasn’t wearing a ring.

    1. PB*

      I’m in higher ed, so candidates generally have to do a large group presentation. At the start of a presentation, a candidate handed out blank slips of paper for us to write our names on. Why? So she could conduct a raffle at the conclusion of her presentation. Hands down the weirdest thing I’ve seen in an interview.

    2. Rincat*

      I had a candidate keep her backpack on during the entire interview. She was early 20s, and attending another college, but interviewing at ours. I don’t think she had come straight from a class or something, as she was wearing professional clothes (though some business programs require that, but she was studying CSE). And when we asked if she wanted to set her backpack down, she said no, she was fine with it on. It was odd…we didn’t hold it against her because she was a pretty good candidate otherwise, but I just have to wonder why anyone would want to keep on a big, bulky backpack while sitting in a high-backed office chair for an hour?…I chalk it up to nervousness. I could see myself saying “No it’s fine!” in a moment of brain blip and then feeling like I couldn’t back up.

    3. BeenThere*

      Not particularly strange or funny, but certainly cringe-worthy.

      Conducted an off-site interview for a high-level position at my organization mid-summer. Candidate came in late, drenched in sweat, saying there were train delays. He used a paper napkin to dry off some of the sweat and a very large part of the napkin stuck to his face.

      Where it remained. For the entire interview.

    4. H.C.*

      A candidate flexed & kissed his biceps when talking about how often he goes to the gym.

      This was after the formal part of the interview is over and we’re just making small talk about hobbies, etc. His interview responses had been unimpressive up until that point, but that’s not the impression I was looking for!

    5. Tea and Sympathy*

      I was on a panel interviewing someone, and asked “tell us about a time you received some negative feedback and used it constructively to achieve a positive result”. The candidate blinked silently for a moment, then spoke “okay, um, let me just think of a particular example, I’ve had LOTS of negative feedb-OH! Oh no. [Blushed head to toe] I mean, oh, I don’t mean…. I… I don’t get lots of negative feedback, I… I mean….” – poor thing, but I was so close to laughing. (she went on to give a really great answer to the question, actually) :)

      Another example isn’t mine, I just love the story, but a sibling was once interviewing and asked what a candidate’s biggest strength was; he talked at length about his loyalty. Two questions later, “Why are you leaving your current job?” – he explained the company was very close to bankruptcy, and they wanted him to stay on and help them avoid this, but (quote) “you have to think about yourself, don’t you?”

    6. MsMaryMary*

      I asked a candidate to describe a time she had to deal with a difficult situation at work. She said that at her current job, she was responsible for keeping employees’ benefits information updated. Correct address, marital status, dependents, etc. One employee asked her to update the beneficiary for his retirement plan from his wife to his girlfriend. The candidate looked me in the eye and said, “I wanted to whoop his ass….but I didn’t.”

      1. MsMaryMary*

        I also recently attended an event for human resources professionals, and they had videos play in between sessions of different people giving advice, talking about their career path, etc. One video was on strange interview experiences. One person had a candidate show up to the interview with no shirt on, someone interviewed a man who had apparently shaved off half his mustache, and one person had the police use a second round interview to arrest someone after the background check caught law enforcement’s attention.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      My stories are nothing compared to the scarf and the backpack. But:

      1. The candidate who told me he was surprised he got an interview as he spent much less time on this than applications for other jobs he wanted more. (I was facilitating the group part of a recruitment day and I guess he didn’t think I would tell anyone what he said.)

      2. The candidate who, when asked how she would research a particular aspect of llama care – in an interview for a job as a llama care researcher – said they would “probably just Google it”.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        And the arrest!

        My favourite one from AAM was the candidate who handed someone their chewed gum to throw away.

  150. Inquisitor*

    Greetings, I am applying for a temporary job, and I have been requested to bring a mobile phone with either an iOS or an Android operative system; the person I spoke to claimed it was for an app I needed to download in order to perform my job.

    Procuring such a phone is not an issue, but I have yet to call them back. Is it common for an employer to require specific software installed on the phones of its employees?

    1. Rincat*

      Installing a piece of software – not totally. But requiring a candidate whom they’ve not even hired to bring the phone in order to install it – weird.

      My company uses a 2-factor authentication program for logging into our network, and most of us download the phone app for use with that, but there is an alternative (a text or call with a code) if you don’t have a smartphone or want to install the app. That being said, I can’t see why you would need to bring the phone to just an interview – they could just simply ask if you would be able to get a phone capable of using the software.

    2. Nanc*

      I wouldn’t do it on my personal phone. If you wanted to buy a pay-as-you-go burner phone that would be an option. In my personal opinion, if you require a phone for me to do the job, you provide a phone.

      Full disclosure: I’m old and cranky about requiring BYOD for any job. Providing the tech tools is part of business . . .

  151. opinions*

    When you don’t like some part of your office – and I mean something that’s vaguely irritating, not massively disrupting – how do you discuss it with your coworkers? I tend to keep it to myself or share it in vague terms with non-work friends, but i had two different coworkers this week discuss with me pretty openly how much they don’t like a thing.

    One day last week Bob talking about how “it’s really lame when you have a lot of good ideas and no one pays attention, and they only listen to Joe [other coworker on Bob’s hierarchy tier] instead,” as the two of us were waiting at a red light going towards similar bus stops. (We live in a big city.) For what it’s worth, I think both Bob and Joe have about 50% good ideas and 50% bad ideas. So I said, “Well, I think everyone’s ideas are important.” Bob’s response was, “Well, I guess,” with a sort of strained smile.

    Today, Amy and I were doing user interviews (Amy does the talking and I take notes), and right before Amy called a user we were going to interview, she went “I don’t understand why we do these. I don’t think anything good comes out of them.” Instead of saying ‘Well, your self-sabotaging totally makes it even more worthless to the company and wastes my time, so why don’t you at least pretend you care and maybe you’ll learn something new or we’ll benefit somehow?’ I just shrugged.

    Blagh. This is a vent.

  152. The IT Manager*

    My girlfriend broke up with me Monday night. And after that I had to work a couple of hours to finish updating a document that was promised to be in someone’s mailbox Tuesday morning. I work from home.

    And then I worked Tuesday to be there for more feedback. It wasn’t too bad as it was kind of distracting. I worked Wednesday because I host a meeting that afternoon by there were definitely more than a few hours staring into space.

    Thursday I had a meeting with my supervisor but planned to take sick time Thursday and then decided to take Friday when my supervisor was very encouraging about taking care of myself (although I said I felt sick and not heartbroken).

    Well, this morning I log in because we have a report due Friday and I’m the only one who does it and I discover a crisis and work for over 2 hours to get through that.

    Ugh! When I was in the military, I didn’t have this problem. But I don’t have a second here and my boss manages multiple projects so isn’t really aware of my project’s details. And some of it may be because I’m a bit of micromanager and don’t trust the one other govt person to see the big picture. And there are things not in the contract or things only govt can do.

    But “Ugh” I would like to be able to take time off work and not worry what’s happening. I do an okay job of forgetting work while on vacation but my return is always proceeded by concerns about what has happened.

  153. Anon Accountant*

    Today is a tax deadline so this is brief. I want to thank all of you for the great advice and tips for navigating a horrible, toxic work environment. In the few years I’ve been here I’ve seen such vicious gossiping, good people bullied out and general morale is nonexistent.

    I’m still searching but am viewing them with amusement and pity them for being so nasty. It’s a few that make it so toxic and 2 are partners here. I’m searching and am hopeful.

    Thanks to all of you, I’m determined I’ll have an amazing job soon.

  154. TotesMaGoats*

    Good news! My sister who had the job interview last wednesday, got offered the job and accepted last night. More money, less responsibility. (In that she was doing the work of about 2.5 people). It was a hard decision for her because she loves her team but I’m so glad she’s moving on.

    In other news, I just had a meeting with a manager within my unit (no reporting relationship) on how he could deal with a terrible student worker that he inherited. I did my best to channel Alison. It’s weird because he’s at least 15-20 years older than me and has managed before. But I think my advice (omg, run to HR and do not stop) was good.

  155. Embarassed Anon*

    I did something super unprofessional at my last job, but I think that both sides handled it badly and I would like to hear others’ opinion.

    I was hired at a store in a customer facing position. When I went in for the interview they said they would get back to me in a week. Two weeks went by and I got an offer letter with a start date at the end of the next week. I decided that I liked the company so I went for it. Turns out they didn’t have anyone to train me until a week after my start date. I was a little unnerved, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt thinking that sometimes people get sick unexpectedly. The day before I was supposed to go in for my training they called me and rescheduled for 2 weeks later. So I was annoyed to say the least. I was desperate for a job and as I had worked for the mother company before I thought it would be a good job, if it ever got started!
    I decided to call my manager (who I had been instructed to contact for any problems I might be having) and talk to her about what was going on. When I was hired they said I would be working 30 hours a week, but she told me that because it was going to take so long to train me I’d only be getting 12 hours a week for the foreseeable future. I told her that if I was only going to get 12 hours I would need to change my availability. She said to change in on their online system and she’d look it over and give her approval. I went ahead and changed my availability and started job hunting for a second job. Between the time I changed my availability and my shift two weeks later I didn’t get a phone call from the manager about the change. Online it said that it was still pending. Also during that time the house I was staying in was broken into, my backup house sprung a leak and flooded the first floor where I was staying, I was forced to move in with relatives who lived an hour drive from the city, and the smoke from the fires got so bad I was having near daily asthma attacks. To say I was stressed would be an understatement.
    I went in for my training shift and everyone asked me if I was okay. I was decidedly not okay, but I had been able to hold it in fairly well, until I got a text message 15 minutes before my shift saying that a friend of mine had been in an accident. That was the straw that broke the very emotional camel’s back. I started bawling. Crying so hard I was hiccuping and had snot running down my face, in the staff room, right before I was supposed to go out front. My former coworkers who had been on break when I came in offered to get the manager on duty who asked if I would like to go home, and I said yes, and I apologized for showing up as such a mess. That manager was very sweet. Then the gm came in.
    While I was clearly in tears and feeling horribly embarrassed, the gm came in and decided now was the perfect time to have a Serious Talk. She said that my current behaviour was unprofessional and reflected badly on me (like I didn’t know that already) and said that my change in availability was also unprofessional and ridiculous. They had hired me based on the availability I had given them (which I gave based on the 25-30 hour a week requirement they gave me during my interview) and to change it when I had only worked there a month (ha!) was not right. She proceeded to lecture me for 20 minutes. Before she came in I had planned on going home, calming down, and figuring out a mental script for apologizing and talking to my manager the next day. After she left me I decided to go home, calm down, and write up a resignation letter to hand over with my ID card. I decided on a letter because I know that company policy requires either a letter or an exit interview and I did not trust myself to stay calm for that. I went into the store the next day and put my letter in the manager’s mail box and walked out, which I admit is not one of my best moments.
    After I left the store I actually checked myself into a mental health center for emergency counseling (I have depression and anxiety and after having a near full on breakdown I figured I should get some help). Unfortunately, I forgot that the policy in the place I went has a rule requiring you to turn your cell phone off. I did this immediately as I was only thinking of getting help, but later I realized that this meant that my former employer would not be able to get a hold of me. I have no idea if they called or not, but I got my pay stub (I had done all of the online training which was tracked by head office) and my record of employment.
    I realize that I should have handled things differently (gotten help with my stress and anxiety before I snapped, gotten the courage to tell the gm that my manager had told me to change my availability that way, etc.), but is it wrong for me to be miffed with the gm? I feel like she also should have handled it much better than she did. I understand wanting to make sure a new hire understands how their approach to things looks, but I really don’t think that it’s great to talk to them when they are clearly already extremely distressed. Some of my friends on the other hand can’t believe that I would do something to mess up a perfectly decent job given the current job market. Thoughts?

    On a side note, I still love the company, just not that gm. Unfortunately I was introduced to a lot of the workers when I handed in my offer letter (it had to be done in person within 3 days of receiving it) so I avoid that location now. Thank goodness they have an online store!

    2. LSP*

      It certainly sounds like you went through a LOT in a short period of time that was well outside of your control. While, sure, in a world where emotional reactions to traumatic events didn’t exist, you might have been expected to be 100% professional during that time, I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about it.

      The GM sounds like a bad manager, because, you’re right, talking to someone who is clearly distressed, is not a good idea. Now if you were someone who cried everyday at work, I’d understand her pushing, but you had just gone through a burglary, flood, increased asthma attacks and the injury of a close friend. That was NOT the time to give you a dressing down about something you had already discussed with her and she gave you the green light on.

      Should you have talked to her in person about resigning? Sure. But if you have an otherwise good record with this company, and with work in general, I’d just work to put this behind you. If you wanted to do anything about it, you could write to the GM, saying you wished things had gone differently, explain what had been happening in your life and that you thought since you had discussed your availability over the phone and she said it was ok, that it was, and you hope her the best.

    3. Jade*

      This really ground my gears! I wouldn’t feel bad about what you did. The manager made mistakes here too. She shouldn’t have allowed your training to be so far delayed on such short notice. She shouldn’t have cut your hours in half for lack of training that was ultimately her burden to resolve. She shouldn’t have expected that you should accept your drastic reduction in hours without needing an additional means of income to pay your bills. She shouldn’t have told you changing your availability was okay, then changed her mind with without warning, and alerted you to this change of heart in the form of a lecture. And most of all she shouldn’t have picked a moment when you were clearly not in a good place to rub salt in your wounds. A good manager would have asked if everything was okay, asked if you needed to take a break or go home, and perhaps referred you to the Employee Assistance Program for help.

      I’d say you dodged a bullet getting out of there when you did. You needed to take care of your mental health first, so dropping off that letter without enduring anymore fuss and going to the clinic was what you needed to do in that moment. It wouldn’t hurt to call and explain to them what happened just in case to protect your reputation and to try to keep on good terms with that company, but honestly if I were in your shoes I would be addressing that letter to HR and not that awful manager. At least it’s not like you need to worry about them as a reference because you won’t need to put that job down on future resumes. On a side note, I hope some of your friends that worked there said something to HR or her boss further up in the company about her awful and unprofessional behavior in that moment, if for no other reason than to keep it from happening to the next unwitting victim of her mood swings.

    4. Jadelyn*

      Please don’t blame yourself too much for this. The company cut your hours in half, jerked you around on the start date thing a few times, didn’t follow through on the availability change you’d been verbally told was okay, and the gm decided to lecture you about all of this at a moment when you were clearly in severe distress…they didn’t handle this professionally, either, and in my opinion they were far less professional than you were about it all. You actually resigned following proper channels, even, rather than pulling a no-call-no-show or texting a resignation. Really, you didn’t do all that badly, especially considering the stress you were under, and I think you may have dodged a bullet by not staying where you’d be under that gm’s authority.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      It sounds like you were really unwell, and beating yourself up isn’t going to help. It’s a bit like saying you shouldn’t have had a heart attack at work. You did the best you could at the time, and you got the help you needed, and I have serious side eye for anyone who lectures someone who’s clearly upset.

      I think it’s fine to take pointers from this on what to do differently – but that doesn’t mean you could have done anything different. I hope things are better for you now.

  156. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

    I’ve been in a new position for a few months now (after 7 years at a previous org, and academia before that), and I don’t get what my boss wants from me. When I ask her questions about information I need to complete my projects, she says she’ll think it over and get back to me (and doesn’t, even after reminders, or gives unclear and conflicting answers); she has asked me how my projects were going exactly once (and then referred to it as “having to chase [me] down”); and seems to want constant progress updates even though I’m not making progress in a few areas because I’m not getting what I need from her.

    I’m totally willing to acknowledge that there are styles of management other than what I’m used to receiving (and delivering), and adapt as needed, but I’m at a loss for how to figure out how to please her if she won’t tell me until after I’ve stepped in it. Assuming this is a cultural issue (new job is corporate startup, old job was grassroots non-profit), is there anyone who can give me a hint into how this type of culture operates in terms of upward communication? Literally, what do I even tell her when I’m giving these updates?

    (Or should this be a full-on Alison question?)

    1. fposte*

      Could be, but what the heck, it’s here.

      This may end up just as “your boss sucks and that’s not going to change.” However, there might be some wiggle room. What it sounds like to me is she wants you, not her, to initiate the communication and create the structure for it. For one thing, I’d absolutely give her the progress reports and I’d do it in writing/email on a regular basis, maybe weekly; I’d maybe go project by project and state the status, color-highlighting to indicate whose action is next and whether they’re completed or open. I’d say “Hey, boss, it sounded like you wanted regular updates; how about I send you a report at the end of each week as follows? Let me know if you’d like something different.” If you don’t have periodic one-on-ones, ask for them.

      This may ultimately not solve the problem of a boss who doesn’t prioritize giving you what you need to do your job, but sometimes the issue is that it just needs to be made as easy as possible for her to put all the pieces together, so I’d try that.

      1. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

        Thanks, that’s useful. We’ve set up a weekly check-in going forward (though she’s already pre-empted it with a different meeting once), so hopefully that will help. I’m not confident she actually reads e-mails (I did a double-take when I saw the post the other day about someone’s boss skimming e-mails, because I wondered if a coworker had written in), but you’re right, at least if I send them, then there’s evidence that I’ve been doing something.

        (I’m really sad that I’m thinking this way less than four months into what was supposed to be my dream job, though.)

      2. Jadelyn*

        Also, in those weekly written progress reports, it’s completely okay to say “progress: none; pending deliverable from [boss] in order to proceed”. Might actually help you get the info you need if she’s got it in her face every week in actual writing that she’s preventing you from making progress on your projects.

  157. Whattodo*

    I have been in my position for about a year, applied for some promotions with no avail. My current role is comfy but I need more brain stimulation, I am utterly bored. I have contacts within my organization, should I continue to pursue other positions or look outside the company? I don’t want to look like the “job jumper” and I have had outstanding performance reviews thus far.

    1. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

      Would it be helpful (and feasible) to create a project for yourself at work, both to keep yourself engaged and maybe also to attract some notice from the higher-ups? I’m not at all surprised that you haven’t gotten promoted yet, since you’re still fairly new, but if you’re handling your current tasks well with time and energy to spare, maybe an extra project will help your cause when more promotion opportunities come along later. (You could also see if your supervisor or someone else relevant has a pet project that they need help with, or haven’t had the time to get off the ground.)

      If there’s nothing you can add to your plate within your job, maybe it’s possible to start up a side project? Last time I felt bored at work, I took up competitive knitting (and also organized some workshops in my field that led to my current position, but again, that was work-related). I’ve had reduced hours over the summer in my new job, so I started a blog with a friend. It’s great when your work gives you something to be passionate about, but if the bloom is off the rose a mere year in, I wonder if the next job will bore you once the honeymoon period is over, too; in that case, there’s certainly no shame in getting your intellectual stimulation elsewhere and letting your job be the place where you get your paycheck.

      1. Whattodo*

        That is great advice thank you! I have been involved in many things and given many opportunities, I think its the desire to do more but you are right I should “calm my jets”. I think because I see so much opportunity I’m eager to achieve it and know how much I am capable of. Also through networking I have been offered or asked to apply to things but I don’t want to just keep applying until I find one. I do really enjoy my current role, just wish there was more Problem solving. Side note I do work full time, am finishing my degree after hours and an occasional side job. I’ve considered taking up freelance or blogging and I think you are exactly right I need something I am more passionate about after hours. Thank you so much for your response I really appreciate it.

  158. job haver*

    it’s been the most incredible work week of my life so i hope y’all don’t mind if i share a little. i had a 7 month performance review and it was stellar, all excellent comments, etc., and it came with a raise from 42k to 45k (i’m 1 year out of college for context, 2nd job since graduation). and this week our team wrapped up one of the biggest projects in the company’s history with amazing/unprecedented results for us; obviously i’m super junior on the team but i think i contributed a lot of support and the big boss/big client ceo both personally thanked me. it felt amazing & was super gratifying to actually see the result of 5 months of late nights and working weekends, and to get the good feedback i’ve been hoping for, *and* an unexpected raise! and to top it off, my vacation starts as soon as the day’s over! happy friday everyone!

  159. I literally just said that*

    Is there a nice way to say, “I just said that”?

    I realize sometimes people do not pay attention. In this case it is clear that “Chad” “doesn’t hear” women. No, Chad, you did not come up with that idea. Flora JUST proposed that same idea 1 minute before you. Clara JUST provided the statistics on Project X that you so boastfully stated, even though she provided the information 2 minutes prior.

    1. job haver*

      hmmm, maybe asking him something like “how is that different from what Flora said?” or “didn’t Flora just say that?” in a confused tone might work?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I’ve used “it sounds like you’re building off of Flora’s idea to X and Y, I so agree,” to subtly redirect. I did it to someone senior to me and it went smoothly. All the women in the room exchanged secret smiles and none of the men noticed. Winning.

    2. fposte*

      Or you can treat him as consciously echoing Flora. “Yes, Flora’s idea about the llama is a really good one.”

    3. KR*

      “Flora just had that idea a few minutes ago, but I’m glad you brought it up again because she made a really good suggestion and I think we should talk it over more.”

      “Oh yes, that’s the statistic Clara just provided. You’re right, it is an excellent point. Thank you, Clara.”

      Are you his supervisor? Can. You bring up that you have noticed the pattern (and provide examples)?

      1. I literally just said that*

        My bad! I am Flora…and Clara. I just used the same name twice.

        Everyone else on my team is women, so Chad does this to Astrid and Penny too. The manager and supervisors are all older guys and he doesn’t do that to them.

        2. Temperance*

          I might be more aggressive than you, but I have point-blank asked Chad (it’s always freaking Chad, isn’t it?) how his statement is different from what I had just said.

  160. Startup Hell Lisa*

    My newest employee has disappeared and I am extremely worried.

    She is a young, fit, healthy mother but has recently has some unexplained health issues (they know what the issues are but what’s causing them is a mystery). She didn’t come into work Monday, no call/no show which isn’t like her at all. On Tuesday we got an email from her work address signed by her mother saying she was admitted to the hospital Sunday night with severe pain, and was diagnosed with an issue that, while serious, is not normally the sort of thing that would render someone unconscious/unable to use a phone or email. The email signed by the mother inquired about working remotely or a leave of absence.

    We responded immediately offering to talk by phone and explain her leave benefits and how to file short-term disability, and asked where we could send get-well flowers. That was Tuesday; we’ve followed up with calls to both her phone and her mother’s phone, left voicemails on both, and emailed the short-term disability paperwork. No response and the emails aren’t being read. (I use Mailtrack for read confirmation.)

    As a former Victim Advocate I’m now seriously concerned that the person with access to her email perhaps *isn’t* her mother but possibly an abusive partner who is holding her at home. However, she did previously have related health problems that caused her to miss work, so the health explanation makes sense. And she has children (teens) who would probably alert authorities if their mother was missing…

    But the other possible explanations are scary too, either her health has worsened so much that she can’t even think about her job–and as a working mother I imagine you’d have to be in a pretty bad way to not be trying to make sure you are able to get paid during a health leave–or the whole thing is a fraud, which I can’t possibly believe of her. Previously when she’s been out sick, she submitted doctor’s notes even though we don’t ask for them and don’t have a policy requiring them, she just wanted to make sure since she was new to the team we knew she was really ill.

    I have no idea what to do. I don’t want to harass someone in the hospital or her mother, but at this point we don’t know if she’s in the hospital or at home, we don’t know if the person using her email is really her mother, we have no idea if/when she may be coming back to work, and I don’t even know if she’s safe…

    I posted about this yesterday and someone had the good idea to send the short term disability documents with a read receipt, which I did – the email wasn’t read.

    Now I’m back to considering sending police for a welfare check in case my worst fears are true and she’s trapped in her home by someone. (There is a fair bit of crime in her area.)

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Oh no, this is so upsetting! I think if it were me, I wouldn’t jump right to “abuser pretending to be her mother is using her phone” – I’d assume for now that this employee has notified you they’ll be out sick for at least a week, maybe longer, but they’re not up against an FMLA deadline yet (right?). Maybe I’m misunderstanding or someone with more experience should weigh in.

      1. Startup Hell Lisa*

        She’s out of sick days as of today but still has PTO which we are entering in on her behalf. (Typically employees enter their own PTO with manager approval, but in this case of course HR is happy to manage that for her.) After 7 days if she wants to continue to take leave she needs to submit short term disability paperwork; we have sent her the portion we’re able to fill for her, but she needs to add records from her doctor saying she is too ill to work and submit it herself, we can’t submit that for her.

    2. Murphy*

      Do you have any reason to believe that the person using her email isn’t her mother? (As in, is there any evidence of an abusive partner? I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion if this is your only indication.) I don’t think a welfare check would be out of line. Of course, if she’s in the hospital, they might not find anything at her house.

      1. Startup Hell Lisa*

        I don’t have any reason to believe she has an abusive partner, she’s never come in with bruises or anything, but it’s just freaking WEIRD that her mother would inquire about a leave of absence on her behalf and then ghost–and the condition the email from the mother disclosed is not one that would normally prevent someone from being able to check their email or take a brief phone call, and from what I know about this employee it wouldn’t be typical for her not to want to communicate at all. When she was previously admitted for a minor surgical procedure she was very communicative about how long she expected to be out, chatted about the condition with several colleagues who had experienced something similar, etc. It’s just really strange that they asked for information, received it, and won’t jump on the phone to talk or even reply to email.

    3. fposte*

      Have you called the hospital and asked for her room number or if she’s accepting visitors, or what information you’d need to send flowers? That’s not harassing her.

      If she is actually in the hospital, this makes some sense to me, but I agree that it’s still worrying.

    4. fposte*

      Can you call the hospital and ask if she can have visitors and how to send flowers? That might confirm that she’s there without disturbing her.

      1. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

        (It might be worth a try, but it’s also worth keeping in mind that they might not be willing to confirm whether she’s there. If that happens, it might very well be for privacy purposes. It doesn’t necessarily mean that she lied about going to the hospital, or that she’s in distress at a separate location.)

      2. Startup Hell Lisa*

        We’ve asked a couple of times where she is hospitalized and gotten no reply. There are several large hospitals in the area.

          2. Startup Hell Lisa*

            I found a previous sick leave note she sent me and called the hospital she was visiting on that occasion – they don’t have any public record of her but said they do allow patients to set themselves as private. The other major hospitals in the area have no record of her in the last week either. I’m really concerned…

              1. Startup Hell Lisa*

                We do, it’s the mother and she’s not answering. The only contact from her is the email from the daughter’s address.

    6. Friday*

      Maybe call the nonemergency police line and ask if there’s an officer you can talk to about this situation, and see what she says? It’s definitely weird.

      1. Startup Hell Lisa*

        I called them to just see if there were any recent 911 calls involving her or her address, they didn’t have any related records…

        1. Mr. Happy*

          I don’t mean to be brusque, but I believe you should call for a health and welfare check and stop conducting any investigation or hypothesizing. You have no way of getting any solid information – so both those strategies are going to just result in spinning in circles!

          I actually feel like you are invading her privacy by calling the police to ask about responses at her address, or (in the future) calling a hospital. And neither of those entities have an obligation to share all info with you – so it could be that there is a response or she’s hospitalized, but you still may not know. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence in this case! The police, when provided with the information *you* have but have not shared(!) will be able to ensure her safety. If you are this concerned, and I trust that you have reasons why you are so concerned, then follow through on it and take the step to ensure her safety immediately!

          I guess I’m trying to say – what’s your priority? Knowing what happened? Or ensuring her safety (and maybe never knowing)? If the latter, then please call!

          1. Anon Accountant*

            I agree. And in the worst case scenario if she is in danger the police can intervene. It’s time to contact the police for a welfare check. If she’s hospitalized they could find out a lot faster than you can. If she’s in danger they are the people to intervene.

            Time to stop spinning your wheels. And although there weren’t 911 calls from her residence doesn’t mean much in a dangerous, abusive situation. The victim isn’t always able to get to the phone to call 911 for help.

            Hopefully she’s okay and is in the hospital. But please don’t delay any further in requesting a welfare check.

  161. Startup Hell Lisa*

    What happened to my comment? I wrote out a long comment and it never appeared… did I accidentally use a spam buzzword and get filtered?

    1. fposte*

      I think the answer was “yes” to the second question, because my response ended up in moderation as well.

    2. Anion*

      I’ve had this happen in the past on other sites, so now whenever I write a reply longer than a few sentences, I copy it before hitting “post.” That way if something goes wrong I can just paste it in and re-try.

      I know that doesn’t help you here, it’s just a tip for the future if you don’t do that already.

  162. Jayden*

    Hi,

    So my question, in short, is if it’s OK to – a. mention salary range expectations in my cover letter for an internal application, and b. ask a couple of colleagues, who I know appreciate my work, for a quote/few lines that I’d like to include in said cover letter?

    In more detail, the situation is one where I’ve been asked to consider/recommended by both my manager and the recently-departed colleague for the latter’s open position. The position is significantly more responsibility, but has been posted in the same salary grade as mine (I think it should be one higher). My concern is that I will be given a low-ball offer and I feel a little awkward about negotiating with people I see everyday. Would it be OK to write a strong cover letter and then, towards the end, say that I’d like the salary to be between X and Y based on my research, talents, and the reduced learning curve if I were to take on the position?

    Additionally, would it be OK to ask either this (now) former colleague and/or current colleagues for a few lines that I’d quote in my cover letter to support my work? Or would it make it awkward for them to either say no or unnecessarily spread the word about me applying to this open position?

    Thanks!

    Jayden

    1. Future Analyst*

      You don’t need to include any lines from your current/former colleagues in your cover letter (that’s what references are for), and I would save salary negotiations for when you have an actual offer. Would you not take the position if they didn’t meet your expected salary?

      1. Jayden*

        It would be a tough call if they didn’t meet my expected range because I know that the person who left had a great work ethic and his plate was always full. Have you had any experience negotiating internally? How do you go about it when you see the manager everyday working next to you?

        1. Future Analyst*

          The same way you would negotiate if you didn’t know everyone already. :) If the offer is X and you wouldn’t accept below X+5, say (preferably in person, in a meeting dedicated to discussing the terms of the offer): “Based on the job duties, my expertise in xyz, and the market rate for this type of position, I was hoping for X+ 5.” And then give them a chance to respond.

    2. miyeritari*

      if you feel you have the social clout and the friends to do it, you might want to roundabout ask if there’s any possibility of them bumping the salary.

      1. Jayden*

        what do you mean by “roundabout ask”… as in, not directly ask the hiring manager if/when the offer is made to me?

        1. miyeritari*

          If you know someone (a person in a similiar position, the hiring manager, your boss, etc) which you have social capital with, you could say something like “I saw they’re trying to promote to X, do you know what the salary is like?” or “I definitely want to apply for X, but the salary’s not great. Do you think I’ve got a shot at suggesting something higher?”

          If possible, you could also see if there’s anyone else you know who had internal promotions, and see if they had any luck with salary negotiations like this.

  163. Rusty Shackelford*

    Curious about everyone’s opinions on the teacher who was told not to wear an outfit to work again – slightly above the knee dress with cowl neck and cap sleeves, black tights, over-the-knee boots. Story/pic in link to follow. Personally, I think the boots might push it over the line. Knee-high boots draw attention to the thighs. So, even though flats or short boots would actually reveal *more* skin, they’d be more appropriate, IMHO. What do you think?

    2. fposte*

      It looks like Corporette readers have felt that it’s not a professional enough look for most workspaces.

    3. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      It would be fine at our school. I agree that I had to look twice at the boots. The tights with boots that fell below the knee somehow seem better. But I can’t name why? Dress codes always seem so arbitrary to me.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Dress codes always seem so arbitrary to me.

        They certainly are. I worked at a school where part of the dress code was that the boys had to be cleanshaven and the girls couldn’t dye their hair.

        Of course, a lot of dress codes aren’t arbitrary but are just sexist…

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t care, but I guess it depends on the school. I work at a relatively conservative school now, and the outfit you’re describing probably wouldn’t fly here, but I’ve also worked in more relaxed schools where that outfit would be just fine.

      I tend to be of the opinion that if the teacher is teaching and the students are learning, I don’t care what anyone’s wearing. I may be of the minority opinion here.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was with the teacher until the over-the-knee boots. I’m not a fan of them because they immediately– rightly or wrongly– strike me as “stripper wear”, especially if they have anything higher than a kitten heel (and even then I don’t like them because I just do not like the look). I think knee-high boots would be just fine with a dress like that.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        It’s the heel that gets me. I love over-the-knee boots with a flat heel, but with the higher heel, they’re just uncomfortably sexualized to me. However, I realize this is just my own opinion and wouldn’t put it in a dress code or tell someone they were dressed inappropriately. I’d just think “huh, okay, I wouldn’t do that” and go on with my life.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Now that I’ve actually seen the outfit, it’s totally the boots. The heel and the platform do not look appropriate for office wear. I used to work in a very fashion-forward, no-dress-code office, and those boots would not fly there. In fact, I used to work with a woman who got promoted into a client-facing position and completely changed her wardrobe to be more on-trend– and she went with lots of black, fishnets, very high-heeled shoes, buckle accents, etc. It didn’t work.

          That same dress, paired with knee-high boots or booties or flats or pumps, yes. I disagree slightly with Temperance because I think the length of the dress is ok as long as it’s paired with opaque tights of leggings.

          1. LadyKelvin*

            No offense to your co-worker, but when were fishnets ever on-trend? the 20’s? I am also generally out of touch with fashion so I could be totally off.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Patterned tights were totally a thing 6 or 7 years ago! Still are in some cases. I loved them. This woman just took it a step too far.

            2. Al Lo*

              Oh, definitely. I wore fishnets in lieu of black tights or black pantyhose in the mid-aughts. A tighter fishnet (as opposed to a larger weave) looked more like black tights at a glance, and I always liked the way they made my legs look.

      3. Student*

        Yeah. Teacher is there to teach. Teacher’s clothes should be comfortable, professional, and not ever the main attraction. Teacher is working with fourth-graders – these are not adults. They don’t have the same expectation of impulse control as adults. You don’t distract the kids with sexy outfits as the teacher, and those boots ain’t made for walking. Teachers should never be putting their physical attributes on display in the classroom – legs, chest, or other creative endeavors. Save it for after work.

        Further, I question the judgement of any elementary-school teacher who wears shoes they cannot run in, such as high heels. I expect you to be able to corral kids who run off promptly. They’re too young to expect them to be perfectly behaved; they’re still within the realm of needing to physically stop them from doing something stupid or dangerous. If you are skilled enough to run in ultra-high-heels, that’s great – but I’d still question if it’s really the right choice. I gotta wear steel-toe shoes at my job for job-related reasons, or shoe covers, so wearing shoes appropriate to job duties is not a weird thing.

    6. Temperance*

      I think the dress is too short in combination with the boots and the cap sleeves. This is triply true if she’s a high school teacher and the kids have a strict dress code.

      When I was in HS, we weren’t allowed to wear anything sleeveless, but our teachers were. We revolted. ;)

    8. Ann O.*

      I don’t think the boots should push it over the line, but it’s obviously the boots that were the issue. IMHO, it’s an unfortunate illusion. They’re not actually thigh highs, but the opaque black tights leading into the dress make them read initially as thigh high.

      That type of boot was on trend several years ago. I don’t know about now. Personally, unless there was actually an issue with the class misbehaving related to the boots, I don’t think the school should have said anything. I don’t think elementary school students have (or at least I don’t think they should have!) the reference points that would make a problem of the boots. Also, just because things have a certain echo doesn’t mean there’s an actual problem. The outfit was pretty cute, especially the dress.

    9. New Bee*

      Elementary vice principal here. From what I can see, this would be fine at my school (and no part of her outfit violates our school handbook section about adult attire). Unless there were evidence of significant distraction of students that I could observe, I wouldn’t care (and even then that’d be a larger classroom management conversation I’d have with the teacher that could result in her deciding not to wear the boots again, having a classroom discussion about respecting others’ bodies, or something else).

      Folks around the net are speculating it’s the boots that caused the violation; it’s curious the school didn’t say so specifically (or the teacher didn’t include that part). I haven’t needed to have a dress code convo in a minute, but I always specify the item that needs to be changed, e.g., no flip flops.

  164. anonymous for this*

    Still swamped with work, but my thanks to Allison and all the commenters for all the thoughtful responses to all the questions on this site.. I had a serious problem at work (with the work, not with staff), talked to my supervisor as calmly as possible, and I think a resolution is at hand. I’d been stressed for a couple of weeks, and finally thought about writing into Allison about looking for another job. Then I realized that her response would be “have you told someone exactly what your issues are, not simply that you’re stressed?” and that I hadn’t.

    It seems simple when you’re not in the situation, but my health was being seriously impacted, I’d stopped sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time, had panic attacks, migraines… I was really packed to just leave if I wasn’t fired soon. But thinking through WWAS (What Would Allison Say) may have solved my problem, and since my problem impacted a LOT more than just me, you all can feel better for potentially helping a large number of people just by being awesome.
    :)

  165. Schnapps*

    So after 2+ years of unemployment, husband-type has a contract with a government ministry! Yay! It’s short-term (3 months) but a) it gets him back in the game and b) it’s government so it’ll likely take longer or another project will pop up.

    The funny part is, they can’t tell him what he’ll actually be doing (it’s IT related) until his security clearance comes back.

    I am sleeping so much better now.

    2. Schnapps*

      And not only did he get a job, but I went on an interview last week for a job which is basically what I’m doing now with a few different things thrown in for giggles, and was convinced I blew the interview. I had a really bad example for a question (but got called on it and admitted it – the story didn’t go the way I intended and rather than starting over, I tried to save it and failed). I was so convinced I’d blown it and was pretty embarrassed, I didn’t even bother with thank you notes.

      And they called me and want me in for a second interview. I like my job, but this would reduce my hour+ long commute (one way) to about 20 minutes.

    3. Anion*

      That is GREAT news! My husband finally started working again last month–he was only unemployed for about six months (and we made a major move during that time) but it’s SUCH a relief when there’s money coming in again.

  166. Purple snowdrop*

    My work runs a mentoring scheme. Very limited; very popular. I’ve applied every time (to get a mentor, not to be one) and been told every time that my application is excellent and I just missed out. Last time I was told that I’d be prioritised this time (not guaranteed a place but they’d swing it if they could).

    It’s opening again soon but…. I’m about to leave my abusive relationship and it really feels like a bad, bad time to start something like this. But is it? Is applying this time a bad idea do you think? They suggest you don’t apply if you’re seeing a counsellor. I’m not but probably should again soon.

    I’ll probably lose my priority status if I skip applying.

    Aaaargh.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since they suggest you don’t apply if you’re seeing a counselor (which… what? I really don’t understand) what if you apply, and if you are accepted, tell them you’ve had something come up that calls for counseling and ask if you can be deferred until the next go-round?

        1. Anita H*

          I really don’t get what a job mentorship has to do with personal relationship counseling. Can you elaborate a bit?

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Both mentoring and counselling involve building a close one on one relationship. Counselling can trigger certain unconscious processes, and it can be unhelpful or even unsafe for the person in therapy if they are working with two different people. It can also just be a bit much if you’re working one on one with two different people in two different ways that might disrupt each other or just be too much to process at once. Mentoring is unlikely to just be about work, but also things like core beliefs, values or other ways of navigating the world. I imagine they are also aware that some counsellors will say they cannot work one on one if you are already being mentored and do not want to jeopardise the counselling. It’s just not really recommended to work in two different ways at once like this.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Can you let someone know that you are still interested in participating and would like to be prioritized, but due to RL circumstances, you cannot apply for this session?

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        Hard without giving a “why” but worth a try, but I might see if I can be deferred as suggested above …

    3. Rule-Follower Without A Rulebook*

      Not on the topic of the mentoring scheme, but congrats on the impending breakup! You’re doing an immense thing, and some Random Lady From The Internet is giving you a high-five. :)

  167. Floundering Mander*

    How would you put experience volunteering with a political campaign on your resume, if you don’t work in politics?

    In the recent general election here in the UK I had free time and a lot of irritation at the way things are going, so I spent about a month working nearly full-time hours as a volunteer in the head office of the political party I belong to. The actual work I did was editing and posting candidate profiles (sometimes substantially re-writing them) and photos on the party website using the content management system, doing data entry for a member survey, and similar tasks. None of it really had much to do with the actual politics.

    I’ve been trying to get any kind of job I can, and I though this was much more recent and easily-relateable experience than trying to explain that as a graduate student I did in fact use a computer and know how to use databases. But given the fractious nature of politics I don’t want my party affiliation to put people off. Is this a stupid thing to include? Should I list it with a generic “party volunteer” or “political campaign volunteer” heading?

    1. FormerOP*

      I would go generic. This is definitely a case of “know your industry/culture/area” but I could see that in some cases knowing which party you worked for could go in your favor or the opposite. I’m not saying this is fair. It sounds like you got some experience in day to day marketing work (which I used to hire for) so I would definitely find away to mention that experience.

      1. Floundering Mander*

        Er, the third one. :-)

        Do you think I should call it “political organisation” or go even more vague and say “civic organisation” or similar?

  168. Adlib*

    Work is sending me to Australia!! I leave next Saturday and get to spend 2 weeks there doing training for our people there. I’m nervous but mostly excited!

  169. sheep jump death match*

    Thank you to everyone who gave me advice about improving my relationships with coworkers in a cross-cultural workplace a couple weeks ago. I had a couple minutes of feeling hopeful after an event went really well last week (doubled our attendance! positive feedback from the community! food was pretty good!) but the meeting with my boss afterwards was all about…how distant and cold I was to our staff. Ugh.

    I had about 10 minutes of being really excited for an upcoming business trip to the region I’m from that I thought would let me see most of my extended family, but I just realized that I will actually arrive three hours too late for the party everyone is going to. I seriously considered changing my ticket, but I’m traveling with my supervisor, and she’s nervous about traveling in my region. I’m pretty sure making her travel on her own would be a mark in the “distant and cold” category.

    I’ll be honest, for somebody who has good indoor work with no heavy lifting, I am feeling real sorry for myself.

  170. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So, I have been contracted out for work at just over double my usual pay rate since July. I wrote in an earlier open thread that I just didn’t know how to balance saving vs. daily spending vs. buying things or experiences I could still enjoy, when this work ends and I (probably) go back to lower pay.

    So far, I am paying the same on my student loans (don’t want to pay more because I have an income based plan and don’t want my loan servicer to think I have more income all the time and thus charge me more in the long run). But my wife and I are paying off credit card debt from needed travel and vet bills at a faster rate, and doing a bank thing where it automatically puts a few percentage/dollars of your purchase cost to savings whenever you buy something.

    Daily, we just generally eat and feed our cats better (have changed to raw). And I spend $50/week or so on coffee/lunches/gum/writing supplies/etc. My personal budget is 10% of net pay, i.e. $150 a week, but mostly I either don’t take that amount for my personal account or save it for larger purchases. So far I’ve bought myself, a neat set of books, a massaging thing for my shoulders, and some new yoga/sweat pants (I always get thigh holes). I’ve also ordered some new work pants, and started driving to work and paying for parking. $3 surcharge over bus fare, but I get an extra half hour a day of time at home!

    Also bought good Fitbits on super sale for both wife and I, and Hamilton tickets for November (don’t get too excited, the sets are very much nosebleed ones. Still).

    So even when times get lean again, I can enjoy the clothes, books, tickets and stupid little gadget. The trials of variable income. Ugh.

    1. Adlib*

      Here just to say I love seeing people switch to raw for their kitties!! I’ve been doing it for 2 years or more now, and it’s wonderful. (Not without its share of learning curve-type things, but we’re in our groove.)

      Happy to hear the rest of your news too!

  171. Beatriz*

    Hello everyone,

    I have a conundrum. I joined a company two months ago, it’s a start up and of the intitial four employees, I am the last one standing. The boss screams and yells when he doesn’t get his way, and has reduced people to tears on a few occasions. I don’t want to quit, I really need to quit for my mental health. Any suggestions on doing this without the mandatory two weeks notice?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is two weeks’ notice mandatory or just the norm? I don’t think it’s mandatory. There can be extenuating circumstances that call for quitting on the spot.

      1. Manders*

        Yep, unless there’s some sort of contract that turns this into a requirement, you should be able to quit with no notice at all. 2 weeks’ notice is recommended for preserving relationships and making sure your work is handed off correctly, but this sounds like a situation where you don’t really need to care what this jerk thinks of you and there’s going to be no one left to hand your work off to.

        1. Beatriz*

          Honestly, the other folks just left. No notice or anything. We are still within the probationary period. I kinda want to do what’s right but at the same time I can’t take the anxiety of waiting for him to blow up at me.

          1. Emi.*

            Giving two weeks’ notice is not a universal moral norm! It’s just a convention, and a much weaker convention than, y’know, not screaming at employees. This is absolutely a situation where you can say “My last day will be today; here are my office keys; where do I pick up my check?”

  172. bb-great*

    Can anyone share their system (or just tips) for time management/keeping track of things at work? I’m in a job with lots of different responsibilities and more autonomy than ever before and I’m floundering on how to keep all the plates spinning at once. I think once I establish a system I can stick to it, I just need to lay it out. Ideas?

    1. Stupid Sexy Flanders*

      Do you have Outlook? I find it helpful to set reminders that pop up for me within that. And I have a running “to do” list post it on my computer desktop (the virtual kind not the paper kind)

      1. Adlib*

        I second this. Outlook can be super helpful in ways that people don’t often remember. I used to send off emails and then not give them another thought because I’d figure the person I sent it to would reply, and I’d take it from there. (Guess how many times that doesn’t happen.) Now I set flags/reminders on my sent emails just so I remember to follow up at a certain time.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I know everyone seems to be using Google Calendar in various capacities, but I really did prefer Outlook and found it a lot easier to use. But then, I’m old and resistant to change.

    2. Startup Hell Lisa*

      I just read Deep Work and have started using his extremely low-tech system: A notebook where you mark each hour of the day, skip a line, mark the next hour. The two lines are for the two halves of each hour. You schedule the work you plan to do for every hour of the day and then do it. (There’s a lot more to the Deep Work system than that and this scheduling method will only really work for you if you’re also using the other strategies he advises, such as breaking your day up into connectivity and non-connectivity work blocks, but that’s a starting point.) I highly recommend the book!

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      My system, which may or may not work for you, is a combination of productivity software. I use Asana for my to-do lists. It’s a team project management tool, but I use it just for myself. Along with Asana, I use Instagantt. Instagantt syncs with Asana so I can see my work in a gantt chart and give tasks a range of time instead of just the deadline. And then I use Hourstack with them which also syncs with Asana, and I use that to track how much time I spend on tasks and to set aside chunks of time for various things. Hourstack also helps because if I get distracted in the middle of working on something, I can look and see what I’m tracking time on.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Use whatever system you will actually look at, whether it’s post-its on a board or a Word document.

    5. LostRiverRanger*

      I can’t wait to check out the other suggestions, but David Allen’s Getting Things Done has worked for me for > 1o years. It’s infinitely adaptable, gives concrete strategies for setting up your personal system (e.g. email, phone), and is predicated on the concept that you need to let your list be someplace reliable and not cluttering up your mind. If you are more autonomous, it will really help with dealing with customers, bosses and subordinates. Check it out!

    6. buttercup*

      I’m in a similar boat – but something that works for me is scheduling my tasks on my calendar in advance. It keeps me structured and on track.

  173. Stupid Sexy Flanders*

    Just feeling paranoid and wanting some reassurance-
    On Wednesday evening I was offered an awesome new job contingent on them speaking with my current supervisor for a reference (since I didn’t have other recent supervisors they could talk to, I’ve been at this job a long time). I gave my supervisor a heads up on Thursday morning and she was happy for me and said she would give me a good reference. I haven’t heard anything from the new job since yesterday morning after they presumably talked to my supervisor. I don’t need to freak out right? The new place has been very enthusiastic about bringing me on and my supervisor thinks very highly of me. I am just worried since I haven’t heard back yet.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I wouldn’t panic — sometimes companies can be glacial about the hiring process. It sucks, but it happens. As long as you’re reasonably certain your supervisor didn’t throw you under the bus, you should just assume it’s taking time for the paperwork to go through.

    2. Susan K*

      Definitely no need to freak out. They just talked to your supervisor yesterday? It is totally normal for it to take longer than one day to finalize the paperwork or whatever, and who knows, maybe the hiring manager or HR person is off today. I would give them at least a week to get back to you before you start to worry.

    3. miyeritari*

      Gave it a week before you start freaking out, then email asking a follow-up. If they don’t reply to that email with a week, THEN start freaking.

  174. Cawfee Ninja*

    Any career criminals in the house?

    We got new desks a couple weeks ago, the kind with locking drawers and overhead cabinets. My cubemate and I noticed our stuff was getting moved around, so we started locking up at night. I lost my key!! So my desk is more secure than the White House right now. Maintenance said they can’t help me and they have no spare keys. To make things worse, 1) my coffee stash is in the one cabinet and 2) There’s a binder I need for a presentation next week in the other cabinet.

    [Insert Ross Geller: “IM FINE”]

    1. k.k*

      While I can’t vouch for their accuracy, if you search youtube for “how to break into desk drawer” there are several tutorials (it seems you’re not the first with this issue!). Many seem to involve using a paper clip to pick the lock.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I need to get into a locked filing cabinet that we don’t have the key for and maintenance is just ignoring me. So I feel your pain, though mine isn’t as urgent as yours!

    3. RVA Cat*

      Look at the alphanumeric code printed on your lock. Chances are the same lock has been reused somewhere in your office. See if that person has their key. I had a similar situation and it turned out one of the departmental filing cabinets used the same key.

      1. RVA Cat*

        FYI the code is embossed into the metal and may be hard to see. You may need to do a pencil rubbing of it.

    5. Never Nicky*

      You can buy lock picking kits “for entertainment” online at the A and E words. (I know some geocachers set/solve locked puzzles needing the use of these kits, I’m not a cat burglar in training!)

    6. Rick Tq*

      A couple bobby pins make a good pick set. You need one tool to twist the cylinder and another to push the pins up to open it.

      Bosnianbill’s youtube channel has a lot of videos on lockpicking so you can see what you have to do.

      With a little practice those desk locks will open for you.

  175. Drew*

    Self-bragging: in mid-August, I got handed a major work project with my deliverable scheduled for the end of the month.

    I’m actually wrapping it up today and will be able to move it to the next stage of the process two weeks ahead of schedule. It helped (a LOT) that the materials I was working with were far more detailed than I had expected, so a lot of the ground work was already completely. But still, I am feeling SUPER competent right now.

  176. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    So, yesterday Mr. Death Rides a Pale Volvo had an initial phone interview with the college I work for, to be their Help Desk Manager. We rehearsed so much that I honestly think *I* could interview for IT and get past the first round, now.

    He said the call went REALLY, REALLY WELL. He’s been struggling to find work since we moved out here in May. I need all the love & light & thoughts & crossed fingers & cookie offerings to Cthulhu that you can think of. O PLEASE O PLEASE O PLEASE let this work out!

  177. Politically Inadequate*

    My manager keeps a task list of a project that is very important for our department. We hold a meeting every week and go through the task list and put in updates. Every task is assigned a “leader” whose responsibility it is to make sure it gets done. Seems pretty straight-forward, right?

    Well my manager recently delegated the responsibility of keeping the task list and updating it to my coworker. She, the coworker, then updated it to make it more presentable because it had been growing for a while. When we held our next meeting, I noticed that my name had been removed from literally every part of the task list, even things already done. I have copies of the list for every weekly meeting, and my name shows up on like 60% of the tasks, and am “leader” on around 30%. Now, nothing. Everyone else’s names all still appear in the same spot.

    Me and this coworker don’t really get along, but doesn’t this seem a little childish? Should I call her out on it? This really isn’t my strong suit, so I’m not really sure how to play “the game” on something like this.

    1. fposte*

      Just ask her. “Hey, Jane, on my copy I’m assigned several of these things, and now I’m not seeing my name on them. What happened, and can we get it fixed?”

    2. miyeritari*

      It’s childish, but if she doesn’t already like you, she’s probably not going to change her behavior.

      If this spreadsheet is how you’re evaluated, you might want to confirm with your manager they know you’re doing this part of your job. “Hi Brenda, I noticed my name wasn’t appearing next to Tasks XYZ on the spreadsheet that Linda is upkeeping. I just wanted to confirm with you I’m working on those projects.”

      If you call out your coworker’s inability to maintain the spreadsheet, which you could do (“I’m a little concerned that the spreadsheet might not be consistent with our current work strategy. I’m pretty sure I’m working on projectz XYZ. Can you confirm that?”), i’d be prepared to take on this task, so just be aware of that.

  178. Portarossa*

    Anyone have advice on how to deal with a b*** eating crackers situation where the BEC is your boss? I’m not really in a situation where I can quit but at the same time, it’s becoming more and more difficult to remain objective with each passing day.

  179. Molly*

    This may seem elementary, but can someone here tell me how temp agencies work? I’ve been thinking of going to one, but I’ve never used one before and nobody I know has either. For one thing I keep getting conflicting answers from people on fees. Some say temp agencies skim a portion of your income as a fee for placing you somewhere, and others have told me no, the *employer* pays them the fee instead for finding someone to fill the role.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’ve used a couple temp agencies and I’ve never had to pay the fee. In my experience, the employer has been responsible for that.

    2. Karl*

      Generally, the employer will hire the temp agency for a certain number of positions. The temp agency will bill the company an hourly rate (and an overtime rate if applicable) for each position. The temp agency is responsible for paying the temp. The temp agency is your employer for legal purposes, and they cover all of your taxes and tell you what you get paid. For obvious reasons, the temp agency will charge a higher hourly rate than you receive in hourly wage. I wouldn’t call that “skimming”, but it’s effectively similar.
      They may also fill a role and as a recruiter, at which point it’s an entirely separate thing. The agency will find the person, interview, etc. Then the company will interview and accept or reject the candidate. If they accept the candidate, the candidate is hired the same way any other interviewee would be hired. In this case, the agency gets paid a lump sum usually dependent on the candidate’s salary. This isn’t really “Temp”, but most temp agencies do provide this service as well. They will be upfront with you before you start anywhere as to what your employment status is.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      A reputable temp agency will never charge you to place you. The client should be paying for those services.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Well, those are kind of the same thing. The employer pays the temp agency and also pays you. But you don’t get involved in paying the temp agency, and their payment doesn’t come off your quoted wage.

    5. mreasy*

      I just hired a temp for the first time l! We set the hourly wage for the worker, and the agency quoted us what the total hourly fee would be, inclusive of wage. In our case, it was about $7/hour more than the worker’s wage. This covers the temp agency’s fee, but also all insurance coverage, payroll tax, etc. In short: the employer pays.

  180. Anon16*

    This is really, really late. I think I messed up a salary negotiation for a potential employer. Is there any way to salvage this? Can I email them (since the interview has ended) and clarify? I’m increasingly desperate to leave my organization, which feels like it’s falling apart.

    1. fposte*

      Messed up how? I don’t think it’s impossible to do a followup email, but what are you trying to achieve?

      1. Anon16*

        The interview went well until the salary conversation. I think I mentioned a salary that was out of their range (though they never said that). It just felt like things got uncomfortable after the conversation about salary (may be reading into things).

        Basically, they asked my current salary. After hesitating, I told them. Then they asked my expectations and I mentioned a range, and was upfront that my “ideal” was a little higher. It got uncomfortable after that. I asked them their salary range and they said I was “right in range”, but I still felt things were really off afterwards. I mentioned, right after that, that my number was “negotiable” and “not a hard number”. It still felt like things lost steam after the conversation.

        This is my first salary conversation and I was very uncomfortable. I did not expect them to ask my current salary and felt a little put on the spot. I’ve heard conflicting advice about whether or not to tell them my current salary and so I think I handled it really awkwardly. I’ve heard of ways to avoid answering, but it’s very uncomfortable when you’re in the moment.

        Anyway, my organization is having a lot of turnover and I’m wondering if there’s any way I can salvage this as I’d like to leave soon. Can I email them and say something? I’m disappointed it feels like things lost steam after the conversation.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Try not to dwell on it. I don’t think you did anything wrong, and any further interactions about it right now will just feel awkward. Focus on a thank you/the normal followups, express your interest again, then try to let it go.

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I think I’d leave it alone. You told them your range and you told them it was negotiable; they indicated that your range was in theirs as well. Salary conversations are usually uncomfortable, and it’s hard to decipher how much of that discomfort is you projecting onto your interviewers. It’s like when you leave an interview feeling like you totally bombed it, only to get called in for the next round.

          1. Anon16*

            It’s possible. It didn’t *feel* like it was in my head, but you’re right that it can be hard to tell. I was interviewing with two people, the HR director and the director of the department (and potential manager). The HR director looked totally non-flummoxed by the conversation and was the one who mentioned I was “in range”. The director was the one who was acting differently and seemed cold and almost annoyed (?) during the conversation and afterwards. But you’re right, I should just leave it.

        3. Ramona Flowers*

          They said you were right in range. I’m having trouble seeing where you think a problem occurred.

  181. Lindasmythee*

    It’s been my experience with temp agencies (granted this was 25 years ago) that all fees are paid by the employer.

  182. Pineapple Incident*

    I’d posted on the open thread a few weeks ago about someone whose work I review who is newer (now been in the job just over 3 months) and seriously struggling with the job she’s in despite lots of extra training- I’ll call her Angela. Over the last couple of weeks it’d become increasingly apparent that her skill set was not well matched to the work here. Managing systems and keeping track of multiple open tasks over time is something that was beyond Angela’s capabilities, given the amount of incomplete and incorrect work she’s sent multiple people and deadlines she’s missed. Angela’s general failure just to keep up with her inbox has kept staff in the groups she supported from opportunities to further the organization’s work, and she’s been very unpleasant to people she’s meant to support and/or supervise. I’m feeling a little vindicated- based on feedback from me, the person above me, Angela’s supervisor and the team her position was meant to supervise, she’s being told today that she’s being let go and will have some time to close out projects. The plan is to bump up someone else on the team, Jane, who has supervisory experience from a past position that we didn’t know about, in her place. I’m excited for the changes, which couldn’t come at a better time.

    TL;DR- the person who’s commanded like 70% of my days for the last 3 weeks and has completed no work on any of the task areas she was responsible for to a satisfactory degree since she got here 3 months ago is being fired. So relieved!

  183. Not a Real Giraffe*

    Just a quick rant: My boss hates voicemail and the rule is that her phone line should always be picked up. Her assistant is mainly responsible, but if she’s not able to grab the phone, then my two junior colleagues are supposed to. If for some reason, none of these three people are able to pick up the phone, me or my senior colleague (so, usually me) is to grab it. There are very few instances where no one picks up the call and if it happens, it’s because none of us are available.

    My boss works remotely on Friday and since June, her assistant has also started working remotely on Fridays. Well, the assistant cannot for the life of her figure out how to forward calls to her cell phone. None of us ever know if she’s the first line of call-answering or not, so Fridays end up being a telephone headache for the rest of us in the office.

    Which means that maybe 1 call every other Friday gets sent to voicemail. Each and every time it happens, my boss sends a team-wide email reminding us that we are to answer her phone. None of us have forgotten this duty! Some of us are in the bathroom or at lunch or on phone calls of our own or in meetings, etc. etc. It irritates me to no end that my boss cannot allow one single voicemail to slip through the cracks.

    /Rant

    1. Jessi*

      Two things
      1) can you forward the phone for her? I would get on that pronto. 10m work in the morning to ensure a phone free day….

      2) has someone ever mentioned to your boss ‘hey big boss, we do answer our phones but when we are in meetings and on phone calls there sometimes isn’t anyone to answer the call?’

  184. Kickin' Crab*

    I went on my first “real” job interview today as a potential faculty member at a local medical school. The other junior faculty spoke well of the department and the chair, but the section head (who would be my direct supervisor) was … intense. She spent most of our half-hour interview railing about electronic medical records and to paraphrase, “kids these days.” I am part of the generation she characterized as “lazy and unprofessional” because we trained under the 80 hr workweek rule. I did to get in one question about the division structure, but mostly it was her rant. I later overheard her swearing at her admin assistant, so this is definitely her personality. Luckily I have other interviews scheduled and am in a “hot” field (demand far exceeds supply) so I hopefully will not have to beg for this job and won’t have to actually work with this person.

    My question is, how do I even begin to word my thank-you email to her? “Thank you for yelling at me for thirty minutes?”

    1. Future Analyst*

      I’m honestly not sure you should bother writing a thank-you note: I see them as a way of expressing your further interest in the position, and that’s not really there, so…

      Also, that’s really, really rude of her, and I’m sorry you had to sit through that. On the other hand, I’m really glad she made her personality so clear.

    3. Anion*

      “Thanks very much for meeting with me and sharing your thoughts on the organization with me. It gave me a lot of insight, and I appreciate you taking the time. Sincerely, Kickin’ Crab.”

  185. LadyKelvin*

    No question, just want to share a bad interview experience:

    So Lord Kelvin is job searching for something local. We live in HI and his DC-based job generously lets him telework but on east coast hours, and only until the end of the year or next spring (he also travels about 40% of the time, so he sees his client regularly). He has been volunteering at a local nonprofit that does work very similar to what he does but on a much smaller scale and interviewed with them this week. Now he has a PhD and 5 years of work experience in managing a chocolate teapot account portfolio for around $30 million a year, and his position will be managing a similar portfolio for $5 million a year so the job is a bit of a step down, but we have a 2-body problem and this will keep him in the field he works in as well as provide him with contacts out here, so he’s pursuing it. The beginning of his interview consisted of a timed intelligence assessment test (12 minutes to answer 40 questions), a timed find the errors in this paragraph assessment, and was giving several prompts that he has to respond to by email. He has 20+ first author peer reviewed publications (including a Nature paper!) and works as the primary technical writer for his team. He came out of the interview saying that it felt like someone got their MBA and didn’t understand how to use it so they were making people do dumb stuff like that. I told him they were just clueless about hiring.

    1. Chaordic One*

      There can’t possibly be any correlation between the test results and his ability to do the job. This is just bizarre.

  186. Me--Blargh!*

    It’s time for your weekly null update!

    Nothing to report. Except:

    –I have begun that HTML5 class on Coursera. It’s not that hard. I can learn this. :) There’s one more skill I’ll have. Plus, the book is free and I’m taking lots of notes (they’re video lectures), so I can sit here and make all the webpages I want for practice.

    –My book is in an actual, professional edit. Hoping it helps, dammit.

    I hope something good happens soon, because I think have a cavity and now I have to spend even more of my escape money on my stupid teeth. :'{ #canttakemuchmore #feelingdesperate #canyoucrowdfundafilling #nevermind #Calgontakemeaway

    2. Anion*

      Okay, I’ll give it one more try. Re the “professional edit:”

      Can I ask why you took this step–have you been submitting to agents but not getting any bites? Have you been getting requests but no offers, or no requests at all? Have you tried crit groups or writer’s sites like Absolute Write?

      Please understand I’m not assuming you haven’t done your research or anything. I’m just trying to help, and am genuinely curious about what made you take this step, since you sound frustrated.

  187. Paquita*

    I MAY be receiving an offer next week IF I can get the federal security clearance.
    Please wish me luck! This would be more money and more PTO. Also more hours, there workweek is 45 hours. That’s ok if the money is better.

  188. Nacho*

    Only semi-work related, but my office chair is absolutely killing my back lately. Can anyone recommend one of those chair pillows that works well?

  189. many bells down*

    I got in to my volunteer docent job this morning and was told the new Director of Education would be coming around and wanted to see one of our presentations. The time he was coming is when I give what’s definitely my weakest artifact talk so I thought he’d go see my fellow docent’s talk instead. He came to mine.

    It actually went really well – better than usual for this particular presentation – and I had a nice chat with the guy. But of course now I’m panicking that I looked like an idiot and he hates me.

  190. WG*

    I’m late, but need advice. How do I tactfully respond to an email from the CEO to decline being co-chair of a committee? While the work the committee is doing interests me, the other co-chair has very different work styles and ideas than I have. That co-chair has already talked to me and I get the sense he intends to run the show and not make any changes I want to suggest.

    Rather than agree to co-chair and be frustrated, I want to decline. But I also want to communicate my ideas for (very much needed) changes to this committee. But I’m not sure how best to do that without criticizing the current co-chair or having the criticism getting back to him. My desk is located next to the co-chair and I want to maintain a cordial relationship.

  191. Overeducated*

    What do you think is the longest amount it is reasonable to ask to delay a start date? I imagine 2 weeks notice and a start the next Monday is for local job changes, but what about long distance moves? I can’t imagine giving 30 day notices for apartments and child care, filling those slots if required by contract, finding new housing and day cares, actually moving, etc., in a month flat, much less 2 weeks. Do you get laughed out of the room if you ask for 2 or 3 months? Is there a happy medium or is that just why people like to hire local candidates? (Don’t actually have a job offer, just wondering for the future!)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I asked to delay a start by two months, which worked, but it also meant I had one weekend after the school year ended to pack up all the stuff, fly cross-country, and then start the new job on Monday.

  192. Librarygirl*

    The only thing worse than being stuck in an academic meeting is having to write up the minutes!
    And the only thing worse than that is writing the minutes for the parts you presented and realizing you were too busy presenting to take good notes of the discussion!
    GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
    Sorry needed to vent.
    I’m better now.

  193. Jessen*

    How does one politely say “I’m willing to help my coworkers out with their tasks, but only if (1) I don’t get fussed at for being in the way, and (2) They don’t sit around on their cell phones for hours.”?

    1. Jill*

      I’m assuming you are talking about how to address it to your boss. Maybe something like “I’m happy to help Wakeen and Fergus, but they are making it clear that they don’t want the assistance.”

  194. Talia*

    Is there a polite way to ask “Is this a crazy place to work” in a job interview? What are some of the red flags to be watching out for? (The last time I went to work for a crazy place I didn’t know they were crazy until they’d ruined my sense of workplace norms.)

    1. nep*

      A tough one. But a great question — about what is an important question.
      I’m thinking some creative ways to ask interviewers how they’d describe the culture of the place…?
      Could you give a couple examples of what made the other place where you worked crazy?

      1. Talia*

        Instructions generally weren’t the same from day to day, excessive control issues, there was no training at all because they didn’t know themselves most of the stuff my predecessor had been doing so they just expected me to intuit the role because I’m young and therefore understand technology, the time when my grandboss said she could fire me but wasn’t going to because she liked me so much because I told someone that we didn’t have a mailing list (as indeed we didn’t; the correct response according to her was to create a mailing list out of the whole cloth because one person had asked for one), the time when I got a long lecture on how I shouldn’t try to hide my mistakes because I forgot the messed-up copies in the copy machine (which all but guaranteed someone else would find it, so I’m not sure how that’s “hiding”), the fact that the “I could fire you over this” came the day after a performance review telling me how much I’d improved…

        It being among my earliest real jobs, I at one point made the mistake of asking one of the people who kept yelling at me why this was the only place I had ever worked that had problems with my work, and got a response to the effect of “Well, *we* have *high standards*. If you’re not having trouble at other places, they must have lower standards. Maybe you should go work for one of those places that has lower standards if you don’t want to try to meet ours.”

        1. nep*

          Wow.
          Perhaps you could pick through some of that and put some questions that would get at the prospective employer’s culture. For example, Do your employees regularly have training and development opportunities?

  195. buttercup*

    I experienced a couple of setbacks at work this week. I’m a few months into a new job/my first job. I actually started off really well – my manager and clients were generally pleased with the first few projects I completed, and I was told I performed very advanced for my level. However, two of my projects were heavily criticized this week, and one of my superiors complained to my manager that my emails to him weren’t clear enough. Not quite sure what he means, but I’m afraid I will get reprimanded on Monday for this feedback.
    Idk what happened to me! How does one deal with work setbacks??? Should I proactively talk to my manager?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes you should proactively talk to your manager! Act like you care. Ask what you could be doing different and/or better so that you have a better outcome on these projects next time. Ask what you could be doing to better to communicate via email to be clearer.
      Actively take notes and enact those things.
      If you’re new, generally there is a little leeway while you are still learning the ropes. But you are expected to learn from these things so they don’t happen in the future.

  196. Mimmy*

    I’m chomping at the bits to start looking for a job again because my current place is starting to get a bit dysfunctional (I’m basically a perma-temp in a state-run facility). However, reading this site has me scared that every employer is dysfunctional! Please share some positive stories with me – I need hope that there ARE good employers out there!

  197. nep*

    Online presence question.
    I wrote a piece about an event sometime last year — did it for a friend. He used excerpts of it for some grant proposals. He also sent it to his friend who edits a website affiliated with their faith. I’m not of that faith. I didn’t think much of it. It didn’t really matter to me that it was going to be published there (though I didn’t like the way it was edited/abridged at all).
    Now when someone Googles my name, this is the very top item. I’m currently applying for jobs and I’m afraid prospective employers might see this thing as a strike against me. I’ve got no idea — I just think some could.
    I hesitate to ask the editor of that website to remove it — if I understand correctly, only the administrator of that site could. Rather I’m trying to displace it. That brings me to another problem — my LinkedIn and Twitter are not coming up in Google search for me at all. Not that they’re not ranking high…they’re not there.
    Thoughts? Advice? Leave it be and hope that my qualifications and other aspects of my application outweigh this potential strike?

    1. nep*

      P.S. The no-show LinkedIn and Twitter might be because I only joined in July and September (yes, 2017), respectively. I’ve got 50 connections, 13 followers. So yes — my Twitter clearly is not very ‘live’ yet.

    2. Anono-me*

      Could you ask your friend to request the administrator remove your name from the piece as it has been changed?

      1. nep*

        Thanks. I thought of doing that when the editor initially worked on it to post (my concern then was with the editing — not thinking about the rank in Google search). I struggled with it and didn’t say anything in the end. Mistake? Too late now, but can learn from it.
        If I were to contact them now it would have to be about the job-search/Google concern. I’m thinking about it but something keeps stopping me. I’m probably complicating something that should be pretty simple.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Actually, that’s just what happens when YOU Google your name. Someone else might see something else. There’s no such thing as an objectively clean google search…

      2. nep*

        Thanks.
        Right — I’ve thought of that. I’ve asked others on their own devices to look it up. Granted a small-ish sample, but same thing. (As I said, even when I Google my name comma LinkedIn or comma Twitter — nothing.)

    4. Floundering Mander*

      Unless I’m missing something I can’t see the harm in asking if your name can be removed or changed to a pseudonym. Presumably they know you don’t share their faith, and it seems reasonable enough to say it’s messing up your Google hits.

  198. Ann O.*

    I’m beginning to suspect that my manager lacks the right skillset for managing. She is a wonderful person in many ways and I think sincerely tries to be good at managing.

    However, we are in the middle of a boxed tea set project. We have an outside company helping us run customer feedback testing on the new flavors. One of the flavors has been worked on for months and is about to be tested. The outside company wants our feedback on how to design the tests for the second flavor (so they can start the work before the quarter ends). My manager asked me for input on what we should tell them. During this converstaion, it came up that apparently no one has been tasked with creating the second flavor! And my manager legitimately didn’t seem to see how this was an issue! This type of thing is not unusual.

    1. Dream of New Job*

      A manager that doesn’t give much clear instruction can be hard to work with.

      My boss sometimes don’t give clear directions, and we subordinates have to discuss among ourselves sometimes who does which task in order to complete an order. Eventually everything gets done, but it can be confusing for us when deciding which roles we need to do for the process. Very confusing…..

      1. Ann O.*

        Oh, it’s worse. She didn’t even seem to understand why were asking about flavor creation. I don’t think anyone’s tasked with it even now!

  199. Willow Sunstar*

    So glad to be starting a new job next week. I am done with the verbally abusive Cersei, who apparently cares about no one’s feelings but her own, and the well-meaning but incompetent co-worker who should never have been hired in the first place.

    Case in point: part of my job was doing data entry on teapot UPCs. Teapots have both a case UPC and an individual item UPC, which consumers see in the store. Case UPCs can start with any digit from 0-9. This was covered on day 1 of training several years ago. Co-worker this week, I kid you not, asked me if it was ok if they started with 3. He was not going to type it in until I said ok.

    This is the kind of thing I have been dealing with for 3 years. *head desk.*

    Thank TPTB that he is someone else’s problem now.

  200. Showed Neglience*

    This week I have shown negligence at work, and I really regret it!

    I receive revenues documents from different units in my organization. Some revenues are from donations and the supporting documents my organization local units gave me sometimes tells me who the donations are from. If there are these information available, I have to let Database manager know to record the donor information in the donation record system for providing thank-you letters and future campaigns. 

    This week I have to deal with more deadlines than I am used to. I received revenue documents from a unit that I have the most difficulty working with. The unit is small and usually their donations are small. Their documents are usually not really clear at showing who the donors are, so I always can tell the Database manager the donations are from anonymous. But on this particular day, the unit’s documents have thousands of donations from a fundraising event. As usual their documents are unclear at whether which checks are for the fundraise. So I tell the Database manager the checks I could tell are from the event and the rest of the donations are from anonymous cash contributors, since I can’t see other checks labeled for the event. I said that the second time when he asked me about it. Then later he said he can’t enter it yet until he has more information about the event. He asked the representative from the unit and got no answer, so he asked me to asked the representative. I said okay. I later on spoken to my boss about the unit’s fundraising event, and she told me it is an important event and the event donations in the Database had to be quite accurate. That’s when I regret what I did.

    I told the Database manager to hold off on recording the donation until I get more information. It might take a while, and I also have the deadline to make sure all donation entries are put into the Database. I would also need to apologize profusely with the Database manager once I get confirmation that the exact checks that made up the fundraising money. The Database manager and I usually get along, but after this event there’s a good chance he might have more skepticism/suspicion/doubts about my work providing donation backup documents. I am not sure if this incident will get escalated to my boss. Usually the Database manager won’t tell my boss every time I tell him I need him to make changes because I made an error in my first donation email. But this incident is more rash and ridiculous than my other mistakes, so I cannot be too sure what else can happen.

    From this incident, I also started thinking that this job might not be right fit for me since I do have difficulties communicating with many of the organization’s units. But I can’t just quit my job, since my skills are still at a junior level and job search is difficult these days. I am going to continue my work, learn from this incident, and move on. Is there other perspective I might need? 

    1. buttercup*

      I’m here for sympathy – not necessarily expertise – because I’m in the same boat this week. I’m also a relatively junior employee, and was accidentally negligent on a couple of administrative duties this week. For similar reasons – I have to juggle several deadlines, and it’s really easy for minute details to fall through the cracks. However, a superior criticized me for it via email and now I’m a little worried. I’ve generally been praised for doing good work so it shouldn’t be unforgivable, but I hate letting people down.

      From what you described, your mistake seems like something anyone could do. You are genuinely trying to solve the problem, and the information isn’t clear. I don’t see why someone would start questioning your competence because you didn’t have all the information.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I agree with buttercup. When I was in a somewhat similar position I had to nag different units to get information turned in, and then a lot of it was incomplete or just plain wrong and I’d have to go back to the units and nag them to redo it, or to clarify just what the information was. I tried to get my supervisor to intervene and talk to the units about providing accurate information on time and in the first place, but… crickets.

        It’s a rough situation to be in and it’s more about a dysfunctional organization than it is about you.

      2. Showed Negligence*

        Thank you for your support. It is a little bit relieving to know some people had gone through what I had.

        After knowing my mistake, I wish I wasn’t so rash to get the donation recorded in the first place. I hope I won’t make the same mistake again.

  201. Annon*

    I have a question on etiquette.

    My friend and co-worker just recently told me she will be leaving the company for a new position. We have both talked about leaving for about 6 months now for own separate. I was thinking of leaving next Spring for different reasons but in all honesty, her leaving has made me want to jump ship faster. We work in very different areas of the business and we never cross paths at work except for lunches and happy hours. Most of our interactions are social and outside of work.

    I’ve started to become serious about my job search, I found a position that I’m in all honesty a very strong match for. The only problem is that it’s at her new company. I was thinking of applying and only telling her about it after (if) I have an interview. After that, I would ask her if she has any qualms about me working there too. I don’t think she would but I just don’t want it to seem like I’m following her (especially when she’s trying to get away from our current company).

    Thoughts? Is it bad form of me to apply?

    1. Anion*

      I’d contact her first, honestly. I mean, what if you apply and get a call for an interview and then she says she has a problem with you working there? Or what if it seems to her like you’re just paying lip service by asking after you’ve applied, or whatever?

      Just email and say you’ve just spotted a position at her company that you’d love to go for, but don’t want it to seem like you’re following her around, and what does she think? If you can say it in a really friendly, light-hearted way, I think that would make it even better.

    2. Chaordic One*

      It’s certainly not bad form to apply and your applying shouldn’t make any difference in your relationship, as it sounds like you wouldn’t be working together. If this is indeed the case, you could let your know you applied, but I don’t think you have to. If you do let her know, you might ask her if it is a good place to work, and if it is not hopefully she’ll let you know.

      1. Annon*

        She hasn’t even started yet so she wouldn’t be able to answer if it’s a good place to work but thank you for confirming it woudln’t be bad form to apply. I will check with her first but this makes me feel a little more comfortable asking her in the first place.

  202. MissDisplaced*

    Know I’m late to this, but I have a question about whether or not people this is insensitive on the part of management.
    We have an open office plan that is NOT liked generally but the workers for all the reasons open offices suck (no private, noise, lighting, etc.). The higher-ups all have offices, but everything is glass walled and visible.
    This week, there were lots of interior decorator type people brought in to “decorate” the office. Mainly, they are putting up tinted windows and artwork to basically give the people in the offices “more privacy,” as they’ve been complaining they get distracted. Meanwhile, absolutely nothing is planned to be done to help the poor ‘folks who have to sit out in the crappy open-office floor plan.
    Note: We are also on cost-cutting, travel restriction mode until the end of the year. But they are still spending money on this big “decorating” project.
    Insensitive or No Big?

    1. buttercup*

      I would also be PO’d. The only type of privacy I think higher-ups are entitled to is acoustic privacy (for important phone calls, etc.) There is no reason they need more visual privacy than everyone else unless they are working with nuclear codes or something.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Thanks for the response. When I mentioned to someone I work with how I thought the whole thing was very insensitive to the poor schlubs stuck out in the open floor, she didn’t seem to think it a big deal, bringing up the need for HR to have privacy. While I can understand THAT, it was possible to move HR person to a more private empty office without having to “redecorate” everything and spend money.

        It just felt to me the people WITH the most — get even more. No concession to privacy (such as huddle rooms or quiet call rooms) for the open office.

  203. Problem Advancing At Work*

    I’ve been with my current employer 17 years at the same level (Assistant 3). I’ve tried to advance and not landing anything. No bad reputation, works hard, received awards. This year alone, I’ve applied for seven jobs and didn’t land one. We’re not going to talk about how many I’ve applied for the past 6 years.

    My current role is on a project that ended. While I could stay for another year, I am ready to move on to another role. It was recently suggested that I apply for another lateral position so that I could be more visible. This doesn’t sit well for me. I see others being given opportunities to advance whether their on a project or a line position. People advancing after being here less than a year, or a less proven track record. Yet I should jump through yet another hoop to prove myself. Why is it that I need to further delay my desire to advance? My issues with my employer are two fold: my environment for the past five years has been toxic and unhealthy. The second issue has been my inability to advance/promote, which has me feeling let down by my employer. I am pretty disconnected and find myself wondering why am I still here?

    1. Susan K*

      Are all these jobs you’re applying for internal (with the same company where you currently work)? If so, is there any chance that applying for so many jobs is hurting you? I know that, where I work, it is considered a red flag if someone is applying for a lot of internal postings. I think it’s because that makes it look like the person only cares about leaving her current role, as opposed to someone who applies for only a couple of jobs because she thinks she would be particularly well-suited for them. You might be better off targeting your applications to a specific type of role.

      Do you have any opportunity to discuss career advancement in your performance reviews, or some kind of one-on-one with your manager? Find a good time to talk to your manager about your career goals and say that you would really like to move up a position as Assistant 2 (or whatever is the next step up) and ask what you should do to be considered. Sorry to say, though, that if you’ve been in the same role for 17 years without being allowed to advance, you might have to leave your employer in order to move up.

      1. Problem Advancing At Work*

        Yes, the positions are internal. I’ve talked the my manager who’s known what my intention is for years. She’s no help and just isn’t good in this area. She’s known for not helping her assistants when it comes to support or finding other jobs. I’ve also gone to HR and they haven’t been helpful either. While I’ve been in different departments, my level has been the same and I believe it may be time to leave as well.

        1. Jill*

          With internal jobs like this, it should be fairly easy to ask the hiring managers who turned you down for feedback on why they passed you over. But it does sound like it’s time to move on to another company.

  204. AnonAndOn*

    I received a link to this interview in my Quiet Revolution subscription today. Bob Sutton wrote a book in 2010 called The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn’t, and a new one came out a few days ago called The Asshole Survival Guide: How to Deal with People Who Treat You Like Dirt. While the older one is mostly about the workplace, the newer one is focusing on dealing with jerks in general. Some of the points in the interview are interesting. He mentioned that though it’s getting harder with the onslaught of open office spaces, if possible one should put himself or herself at a distance of 25 feet between them and the offender to help lessen being exposed to the toxic vibe. It also said that more people will admit to being a victim of workplace bullying or witnessing it than being a perpetrator of it.

    These books sound interesting and I’d love to check them out!

  205. Sarah*

    Hey everyone! I am handing in my two weeks notice on Monday (September 18), and am a little confused about which day I should say is my last day. I thought it would be Monday, October 2, but my dad is saying it should be Friday, September 29, as I would have worked the two weeks. I don’t want to burn bridges with this job. Which date should I put?

    1. AnonAndOn*

      The 29th isn’t a full two weeks, but it seems odd to have the last day be the beginning day of a typical work week if your last day is the 2nd. It’s your choice to make, but it makes more sense to me to hand in notice on the 22nd and have the last day be the 6th.

    2. It happens*

      If you tell your boss on Monday morning then the following Friday shouuld be fine. The two weeks is custom and courtesy, not a law (excepting employment contracts or other specific company policies.)

      1. Julianne*

        That’s how I’ve always understood it: 2 weeks notice = 10 business days. When my partner quit his last job, his bosses made a huge stink about how he “owed” them 14 business days of notice, because there are 14 days in 2 weeks. (I’m still not happy that he gave in, and that was over a year ago.)

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It’s 10 business days. Unless your company is being some kind of super jerk or you’re not in the U.S.
      I just gave my notice on the 11th and the 22nd is my last day.

  206. Corn Dolly*

    After a year of being unemployed I finally have a second interview for a role in the next few days! The interview is with the the CEO. The problem is the role is in career terms a big step back. I am totally ok with that, but I’m wondering how to explain it if the question comes up?

    The truth is I left a high-stress high level job that messed me up for a bit and having had a year to reflect on how bad it was I’m looking for a job with a better work-life balance and less stress. Money and title don’t hold the same weight for me that they used to. Any tips on how to relay some version of this without sounding like a slacker?

    1. SpecialK9*

      Something like “I’m seeking a position with a better work life balance. I held a more senior position, but at that company it was expected that senior positions would work X hours every week, and there was no time for anything but work. I’m willing to work the extra hours for an occasional big project, but not every week, year in and year out. From everything I’ve learned about this company, you have a more reasonable work life balance, and that was part of the equation when I applied.”

      If you wanted, you could also mention some specific hobbies, so it doesn’t come across asyou wanting to date and have babies (which is your right, but may not play well in an interview). But not sanctimonious (teaching orphans how to read) or gendered hobbies like knitting. So mention that you are interested in learning MIG welding, or training for a zombie road race, or something else mildly quirky but not trying too hard.

  207. JD*

    Ugh. I really dislike my new hire. Interviewing he was great, we did three total interviews and I really felt like he was a great fit. Cue day two. I was not in the office on his first day, I came in the second day and he just was rude. I mentioned something about business cards and he just snapped “ya you said that already”. Truly the bitch in me wanted to say “oh did I mention you’re fired!” Then he bitched about having to go pick something up….part of his job…because he was just there yesterday. It just was weird and rude. He just had an annoyed by me attitude and it has kept up throughout the week. I work in a male dominated industry so it is sometimes difficult for men to work with a woman being their boss but I truly did not feel this in interviews. I am trying to chalk this up to new jitters but nonetheless I don’t even want to go into my own office (which I co-own) anymore. My partner will not want to fire him, I know that, although if it continues and he experiences similar I know he will hear me out. I just am bummed. I of course will give it more time but it just sucks. You’d think of all times a new hire would be on their best behavior is week one. :(

    1. MissDisplaced*

      JD, I would give it another week. Possible this was a really bad day/something outside of work?
      But DO NOT PUT UP WITH IT. It will only get worse if you allow it to continue.

    2. It happens*

      You know the answer – you need to talk to him. Name the behavior, give examples and tell him it may not continue. And loop your partner in to back you up in case there is a ‘run to daddy’ instinct. I hope it works for you, firing and hiring are difficult enough to have to re-do them.

      1. JD*

        Thanks guys. Partner and I have had opposite schedules and can barely seem to have a five minute phone call lately without one of us having to go. We grabbed lunch yesterday to catch up. I explained the couple of incidents to him. I can be a bit more negative and quicker to judge people so I for sure wanted to hear his take. He mentioned that he did agree that he was acting very cocky. He said for me to speak to him. I would have either way at some point but I for sure wanted to get his perspective first since, like I said, I end to judge much quicker than him.

        I won’t be in the office until this afternoon but will have a talk with him today. It will just be him and I for a week starting Wednesday so I for sure want to have this handled before a.) partner leaves the state and b.) new guy is alone in the office while partner and my other employees are out for this event because I cannot be there all day, everyday.

        Hopefully it goes well!

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