open thread – September 22-23, 2017

by Alison Green on September 22, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

You may also like:
{ 1,337 comments }

{ 1,337 comments… read them below }

  1. That other anon*

    I’m two weeks into my new job. Many thanks to this website for all the resume/interviewing tips. My old (great) boss had left my old company earlier this year and the new boss was…challenging. The new company is fantastic, and literally the only other company doing similar work. I was very lucky to land here and I’m so grateful that I found this site and all of you!

  2. AnonymousProjectManager*

    Question for all you recruiters/job searchers.

    How do I get myself noticed by recruiters on linked in?

    I work in tech, linked in is a really common recruiting tool in my industry, and my colleagues report they get regular outreach. Two people in my company just found great new positions via recruiter linked in outreach. I’d like to start hearing from recruiters. How do I update my settings or profile?

    1. Koko*

      I don’t have anything definitive to tell you except I’d make your profile as complete as possible. I imagine it’s just a matter of coming up in searches. I am not active on LI like, at all, but I do have a fully complete profile with my complete job and educational history, summary blurbs for each job and for myself, volunteer activities, etc. I didn’t start getting regular contact from recruiters until I was maybe 5 years into my career but since then it’s been pretty steady, and I haven’t done anything special to try to be more visible.

      So assuming you have a comparable career length to people you know who are getting contacted, I’d say that probably putting as much in your profile as you can to come up in searchers probably helps.

      1. Koko*

        Also, connect with people in your field! Thinking back, the 5-year mark was also around the time I started connecting with a lot of agency employees – these folks tend to move around a lot, to a new gig every couple of years, and have large networks, so connecting with them probably increased my profile’s “reach.”

      1. Bea W*

        I’ve used this, and got a lot of responses. It brings you up in searches and alerts recruiter types you are looking. You can type in a brief description of what you are looking for. It stays active for either 60 or 90 days (I can’t remember) unless you turn it off before then.

        You can also put something in your headline unless you do not want people at your current employer to see it. There is also the section indicating what kind of contact you want from people. Make sure you have checked new opportunities there as well, although I’ve noticed not having it checked doesn’t necessarily stop people.

        I do accept connection invitations from recruiters and agencies, and most of my colleagues also do this. I do it even when I am not looking, because it’s very helpful to have those connections when you are looking.

      2. Crylo Ren*

        Be cautious with this if you absolutely don’t want your current employer to know that you’re looking. LinkedIn doesn’t guarantee that they won’t see that status change.

        Seconding the advice to make your profile as complete as possible. I got a ton of recruiter outreach after I added bullet points to my profile to list out duties and accomplishments – pretty much a truncated version of my actual resume. If it’s important in your field, I’d also list out the names of any relevant platforms or software you’ve used as recruiters will sometimes search on those names.
        Completing your profile has an added benefit when you are applying to jobs, many of them give you the option to include a link to your profile so if your profile, resume and cover letter are all cohesive that certainly has an impact.

        Somewhat unrelated, but I’ve also noticed an uptick in recruiter outreach soon after I’ve changed jobs (companies or titles).

    4. Emilia Bedelia*

      Ask your coworkers to connect you! If they found a recruiter that they enjoyed working with who found them a great position, ask them to pass your information along.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        ^ Do this. Also ask other people you know who had a good experience with recruiters to refer you to the one’s they worked with

    5. burnout*

      Try doing the free month of premium and getting super active. Make a ton of connections with people in your field, follow all of your dream companies and all related companies. Start connecting with the recruiters yourself – look at your connections’ connections and you can usually tell who the recruiters are by their huge networks and job titles/company names. Make your profile fully complete, clean up your keywords section with all your skills, etc. Plus everything that everyone else suggested… :)

    7. Product Person*

      Oooh! This is a question where I can help.
      Proven results for me, my husband, and others.
      I get contacted all the time by recruiters offering awesome opportunities in great companies. Practically never I get “spam recruiting messages”, and here’s how I got there:
      – Make sure your resume include as many accomplishments as possible for each of your jobs.
      – See if you can upload some slides you used in a presentation or a case study of a successful project you have.
      – Publish a few articles.

      My husband wanted to change jobs recently, and despite having a stellar resume, never got any contact in LinkedIn. He finally asked me to take a look and improve his profile. I added a couple of accomplishments (accolades he received in past projects), and BINGO! Not only two weeks later, recruiters (including one from LinkedIn — he is in the tech business) got in touch.

      One thing he didn’t do is publish any posts there, and I know this helps because a colleague who was jealous of how much attention I was getting wrote some at my recommendation, and quickly got found by several employers. I believe LinkedIn exposes your profile more (even in searches) when you have content published with them. But make sure they are thoughtful articles, not just “me too” stuff, so they get “likes” and shares.

      Good luck!

    8. 2 Cents*

      I joined a couple of open groups in my industry / field of interest, and recruiters have contacted me from there. I also have my profile open to search and to be viewed by everyone. One important thing: I turned off ALL update notifications, so that when I made/make changes on my profile, the rest of my network doesn’t get an alert about it, like “2 Cents just updated her title, work history, summary, etc.” that would suggest I’m looking for a new job.

      1. Mabel*

        These suggestions are all so helpful! Thank you, commenters! I just found out that my contract won’t be renewed after 16 years at this client (due to team reorg.), and my employer is not likely to have another, comparable assignment for me, so I’m about to start searching for a new position. Fortunately, I got feedback on my resume from Alison last year. I had been thinking about updating it and seeing what else is “out there.” I have noticed that LinkedIn seems to have the best job postings for my field, so I’ll try to improve my chances by following everyone’s suggestions.

    9. The New Wanderer*

      This is helpful to me too! I recently turned on the “open to opportunities” button but that hasn’t changed how often I get recruiter emails. Nor has adding content to my job descriptions so it reads more like a resume.

      I’ve noticed that in looking at jobs, there’s a space at the bottom that indicates how well your profile matches the job description. I’d consider myself qualified for most of the jobs I look at, but the profile indicator shows that I only match 0 or 1 out of 9 skills. So if recruiters are using the LinkedIn algorithms, they’re never going to contact me for those jobs because I probably don’t appear in searches for relevant skills. The solution is probably to jam as many of the right skill keywords into my profile as is reasonable.

      1. nep*

        Same — For jobs I’m apparently fully qualified for, it consistently shows that I’ve got zero or one of the skills. I was wondering about that myself. I guess I’ve got to really work on those keywords.

    10. Erika22*

      Usually LinkedIn gives you a free month of Premium – use it! I used to only get fake/spam messages, but recently decided to use the free trial of Premium, which automatically puts you higher in searches by recruiters. In the time I’ve been using Premium, I’ve had dozens of profile views by recruiters and gotten a couple of real messages from recruiters that I don’t think I’d have gotten otherwise. And this was all passive on my part – I’m only casually looking at switching companies right now. If I was truly searching and working for more responses, I’m sure the results would be even better.

  3. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    Does anyone have any tips about breaking out of Pink collared admin? What skills should I be looking to build and/or what kind of courses would be useful?

    I’m an excellent admin, but I want to move into a more challenging role so I’m more management and less ‘Can you organise this meeting for me?’

    1. Monsters of Men*

      Do you have the means to take an open study course like medical transcription or the like? That could be helpful!

      1. Morning Glory*

        That would be a great way to transfer into a different kind of admin work – but it’s not a good way to break out of admin work like the OP would like to do.

        1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

          Very true, but it would hopefully get me more away from the Calendar requests and filing of forms I do now! A possibility if I can’t find anything else.

          1. 2mc1pg*

            I had the same problem, pigeonholed in pink collar admin work, which happened to be at a law firm. I took a Paralegal certification course at our regional community college system (associates for those without a BA, but a capstone/post-BA certification for those with a BA) and broke out of the ‘velvet ghetto.’

            Now I will never be promoted to lawyer. Nor do I wish to make the sacrifices of law school! But I had to look for sideways moves or segues that would bring me out of the grind of telephone messages, contact management, and meeting arrangements. I now produce billable work, I’m answerable to attorneys, and I get to do intellectually engaging tasks. My undergrad degree is of use in my daily work life.

            Look at what others in your industry have moved into sideways or made segues into. For instance, another long time legal secretary who had stellar tech skills went for a set of tech certifications and became the New Hire Trainer for all incoming staff, attorneys included. When anyone is hired on, she teaches them the systems. It’s excellent for her. And she’s answering no one’s phones!

            HR is another avenue by which women in business have ‘traditionally’ sidestepped the pink collar pigeonhole. That may feel a little too Mad Men era, but it’s an option. Accounting is also a path along the same lines, but a little less ‘traditionally’ female. Personally, I’ve looked at Accounting for that reason, but have no reason to switch at this point. But it’s an option for the future.

            Within your existing industry, look at IT, look at Sales, look at HR, look at Accounting, and look at Marketing/PR. Then match these to any existing (legit) certification pathways in your region. Talk to recruiters to find out which pathways are preferred (I stepped away from one area Paralegal course and chose another based on recruiter advice). Make sure you’re not moving into a role that pays less than what you currently make (weirdly, Marketing and PR paid equal to or less than Legal Secretary, so while I can write phenomenal press releases, convincing a firm to hire me into a less well paid role was a no-go).

            Good luck!

      2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        In theory my employer could pay for a course for me, but it’s the NHS (UK govt healthcare) and as I’m not Patient facing it’s unlikely I’d get approval.

        However, I might be able to pay for my own – but I don’t know what to do! The medical transcription might work well, as I’m in NHS already I can apply for internal vacancies.

        1. OtterB*

          It’s a hard question to answer in general since you know what you want to stop doing, but haven’t specified (and perhaps don’t know yet) what you’d like to start doing. If you know you’re interested in changing roles within the system, then I’d say to look at the vacancies, and when you see one that makes you say, “That would be interesting!” look at the requirements for it. Or if you come in contact with other people while doing things like organizing meetings, take a moment to ask about their role and how they got into that line of work.

          1. Onlinecb*

            That’s pretty much what I did many years ago when I wanted to move out of Call Centre work.

            Every time I went on a training course I thought how I would like to be the Facilitator leading the session. I took a City and Guilds Adult Education course then went on to do my PGCE in Post Secondary. I found a new job as a Training Officer which fell under the combined Learning, Development and HR umbrella at our office so I was lucky enough to pick up HR experience as well. Years later I did a HR designation and now work in HR (Training is still my main love but practicality ruled and here I am.)

            Good luck.

        2. MNS*

          Hello! Another NHS admin/IT employee here. Have you looked into training opportunities within your trust? Mine offers the ILM leadership level 3 course and I know of a few people who have taken this and then used it to jump up to a supervisory/admin manager/team lead position.

    3. Anonarama*

      I’d look into getting some sort of project management certification. Like the new hotness at my company is scrum, so a bunch of admins who were great and bored got scrum master certified and are now in project management positions.

      1. NPOQueen*

        Agreed with everyone here about project management. I was doing admin work too until I started organizing events in my role, and using that to transition into project management. Just take a look at your industry; scrum and agile are good for tech but not necessarily the best for events. If you’re just starting out, a CAPM certification is a good thing to have on your resume, and you can build that up into a PMP. The PMP will open all kinds of doors, I find.

        1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

          Alas, I do have a project management qualification, however, I’ve still ended up in admin roles. As I don’t have any specific ‘Projects’ to back up the qualification.

          I’m currently stuck in a loop of ‘You need these qualifications to get the job, but you can’t get the qualifications because you don’t have the experience to back it up’

          2. HMM*

            At this point, I think your best bet is to develop expertise in something, not just having general skills. This is easier said than done of course, and requires that you know what you want to do (or at least commit to a career path for a little while, even if you end up wanting to change it down the road). But when I decided to go into HR, I spent a lot of time just reading up on HR, getting to know the intricacies of the field, and only applying for HR jobs. Because of all that research, I could not only show that I had transferable skills in the interview, but that I had expertise in the thing that they were hiring me to do. It also showed that I understood the role and had a clear idea of what I could do and how I could help the org.

            I found that when I was applying to anything that seemed like it would suit my transferable skills, I would end up a good match for the role but not the best – it got me about 80% of the way there. But once I got very clear about WHY I wanted to do HR, and what I could offer an HR department, I could more closely draw the line between my project management skills and what that means for an HR team. That means that the hiring manager can more easily envision me in the role – even if I don’t match the job description line for line.

          3. Evie*

            I’m currently stuck in a loop of ‘You need these qualifications to get the job, but you can’t get the qualifications because you don’t have the experience to back it up’

            any chance you could try freelancing or volunteering in line with that qualification to help you get some of that experience? I have no idea how plausible that idea is for that sort of work, but it might be one way of making new connections.

      2. Would manage a project*

        Are those actually valuable when looking for a new job? I always assumed they wouldn’t make up for experience, but if they’re worthwhile I’ll get one!

    4. HMM*

      For me it was more about going to a field that would get me out of admin but where admin skills are highly valued. I went into HR but project management and program development were both things I looked at too. Entry level jobs in the field used my highly transferable admin skills without having to get much additional education or training, which was key because I wanted to spend as little money as possible before being certain that I liked the field I was in.

      Be aware though that entry level jobs in those fields can often still feel like admin, so don’t be discouraged if you can’t completely drop administrative duties as quickly as you’d like. I’ve been an HR coordinator for almost two years now and I’d wager about half of my job is still admin-based – just specialized now, so it isn’t just scheduling and filing work. But it’s getting to the point where those admin based things are getting dropped off my plate in favor of higher-level work.

      In addition, if you can hone skills that allow you to start dabbling in non-admin work, do so. For me, that was getting very familiar with project development and management, working on my analytical skills, and taking the initiative to volunteer for new types of work. Good luck!

      1. KMB213*

        How did you get HR work without an HR degree or experience? Did you have some sort of HR training? I’m in the same situation as OP, and every HR posting I find requires, at minimum, an HR degree. Is it just a matter of continuing to check until you find that role that doesn’t require it? (FWIW, I have a bachelor’s, but not in HR.)

          1. HMM*

            Sure! For me, it was part luck – my first job out of school with a non-HR degree was as a general office admin for a start up. In that role, because we were short staffed, I eventually grew to doing a tiny bit of HR (recruiting, onboarding, and very basic payroll). After that job, I did a non-HR gig, then went back into HR because it was the only business path I was interested in without having to get a degree. (In fact, I actually think getting a masters in HR can hurt more than help if you do it too early on – it makes you seem over qualified yet doesn’t really prepare you for the day to day tasks of a junior HR role. IME, I’ve seen it play out as easier to work your way into HR by going the admin or project management route, then getting the masters or certifications if you want to advance. That’s where I am now, and I’m fortunate to be with an org that will pay for me to get my PHR.)

            I don’t know where you are, but in the areas where I’ve looked for an HR job (Austin and SF), HR assistants and coordinators don’t require an HR specific degree. It’s a plus, but with transferable skills, the degree is non-essential. Everything I’ve ever learned about HR, I learned from AAM or my own on the job research.

            My advice to anyone who wants to get into HR is to get experience developing processes to minimize inefficiencies, be extremely detail oriented, have a history of providing excellent customer service, and show a willingness to learn. I didn’t get certified or anything before looking for HR jobs because I didn’t want to spend the money, but having a track record of success with the above got me in the door, then I self-studied compliance and personnel issues before the interview to show that I could think about HR in the way that the org needed. Hope that helps!

        2. periwinkle*

          I wound up as an HR coordinator with no experience in HR, but it was serendipity – I took a temp assignment doing clerical work, they were impressed and asked me to stick around long-term to assist the HR administrator for the division, and *that’s* when I started to get educated about HR.

          I took SHRM’s course on Essentials of HRM (available as self-study, online, SHRM-taught, or through one of their university partners) to get that base knowledge. HRCI, which offers the well-established PHR certifications, now offers the aPRH (Associate Professional in Human Resources) certification for those with zero HR experience. This could be a real help for those trying to make the move into HR without a formal HR background.

          FYI, there is a huge push toward data analysis skills as a key competency for HR professionals. If I were trying to shift over to HR these days, I’d ramp up on analytical skills and maybe learn something about Tableau/data visualization and basic statistics. Coursera and Udemy have lots of courses on data analytics.

        3. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

          One way to ease into HR is by looking for administrative support roles in companies that provide HR services (PEO, HR, recruiters) that have room for upward growth. Especially the smaller companies may provide a career ladder that would allow you to work yourself up into a role and give you good experience for your resume in the meantime).

        4. HMM*

          No certifications or schooling in HR – I elaborate in the comment below but in the areas where I’ve searched for an HR job, they usually say an HR-related degree is preferred but not required. I was adamant about not spending money on additional schooling or training, partly because I don’t think it’s needed, partly because I didn’t have the money, and partly because I was hoping to find an org to pay for it for me!

          I recommend you start applying for the jobs you see anyway if you have transferable skills, and you’ll likely find that the companies can be flexible on the degree (assuming that to you’re trying to come on as a HR coordinator or assistant; if you want to jump right into a HR generalist role, the degree may become more essential).

        5. Mad Baggins*

          All of these comments have been extremely useful–I’m also trying to make the jump to HR.
          Thank you for asking this and thanks everyone for your invaluable advice!

      2. SansaStark*

        Seconded. I was able to transfer my admin skills pretty easily over to event planning. Yes, I was still at the bottom of the totem pole, but the admin work gave me experience in the field so I was able to move up.

    5. Neosmom*

      My admin work has led to supporting sales executives. Now I have direct contact with customers and prospective customers, and I assist with the development of new marketing materials.

    6. Alice*

      look at existing openings for positions you’d like (non-admin), and figure out how your skills are transferable (i.e. customer service skills, time management, people management). The first step is figuring out WHAT you want to do, and then adjusting your resume to show how your current skills transfer into that new role. There are also a LOT of online resources for training, if there’s a particular skill you want to learn.

    7. Felicia*

      A lot of people in my org have easily transferred from admin to event management, and from admin to marketing. But it’s hard to give specific advice without knowing what you would like to do. But in general, there are many basic/small tasks that admins could do that people at your organization might be willing to let you help with. I found asking people with roles i’m interested in “is there anything you need any help with”, or volunteering to do simple things that I found met priorities of my org but used skills I wanted to develop also worked.

      And learning new computer programs/becoming more advanced at ones you already know is always good, but again depends what you’d like to do.

    8. Hopeful Executive (minus Assistant)*

      I was just coming here to ask this question! I feel like my resume is well-curated and focused more on my non-admin accomplishments and projects, but I’m getting passed up for jobs because all of my previous job titles were either Senior Administrative Assistant or Executive Assistant.

      I can clearly offer you no advice, but wanted to let you know you are not alone. Good luck!

      2. AssistantNeedingAssistance*

        Same here. I inarguably do Director-level work where I’m at now (just wrote a 25-page final addendum report to get a department accredited, in fact…), with a B.A. and an upcoming M.S. in December, but I’m still half-time clerical and part-time reception desk. Everyone tells me what a wonderful job I do and how they’d couldn’t get alone without me, “But, uh, a promotion up? Well… Wait until Coworker retires in a few years, then we’ll talk!” This has happened at every single job. When I job hunt, I apply for Assistant Director and Director level jobs, but never, ever get called for an interview, despite my resume being full of projects and accomplishments – but under “Assistant to the…” titles. When I apply for admin jobs, it’s like ants on honey. So, I guess I have the reverse problem as the OP: I have the projects but not the titles, and no one wants to say they hired the receptionist from Company X to be their new Assistant Director of Assessment. But everyone wants to hire the receptionist from Company X who can do project management and assessment, so long as she can also fix the copier and order lunch. Very interested in this conversation.

        1. MillersSpring*

          Are you applying for coordinator, specialist or manager roles? That’s how I moved up the ladder.

          I did admin work during high school and four years of college, even after college. I was in the field of my degree but still answering phones and making coffee. Then three years after college I finally got a specialist job that didn’t have a secretarial component. And it was another 15 years before I had a director job.

          TL:DR, are you trying to skip from admin to director without building experience?

      3. AudreyParker*

        Yep. Tough to escape! I thought I had by getting a low-level project management position through a former coworker, but now that I’m searching again that doesn’t seem to have helped much: just had a PM interview where the interviewer said something like, “Oh! Are you interviewing for the EA position?? I just saw ‘Administrative Assistant’ here…” That job was nearly 6 years and multiple other (theoretical) accomplishments ago!!

    9. KR*

      I used to work as an IT Technician/admin for our IT Dept at old job and I liked it. I work now in renewables ordering parts and setting up resources and services for our renewables sites and it’s really enjoyable. It’s admin work but it’s more technical (but I don’t get dirt under my nails or have to put on a 40 Cal suit).

    10. LKW*

      I went to night school at a local private university. My company reimbursed me for 80% as long as I earned above a C. The company paid for two tracks, Engineering or Business. So I took business – specifically Information Management. That helped me get my foot into a consulting firm where I’ve been ever since.

      If that doesn’t align with what you want to do – look for opportunities to do analysis or meeting preparation work – not just organizing the logistics, but in preparing meeting materials. Ask about helping manage departmental metrics. Consider creating a departmental “playbook” putting together information about the org chart, processes, tools and relationships to other departments. Think of the tools that would help someone if they landed in your department on Monday and had no idea what to do or where to go. If those things exist, then who manages them and are they up to date? If they don’t exist – make it!

      1. HMM*

        Yes, I found process development key to progressing out of just admin work. Maintain documentation, reduce inefficiencies, save money – those are all things that an great admin excels at but also allows you to *create time in your admin job* to say “because this low-level work is done, what can I help you with?”

    11. Emmie*

      What kind of work do you want to do?

      I can think of some fields, like HR, where you may be able to progress in a coordinator-type role with certain experience.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      It’s a little hard to answer as you haven’t really told us what you’d like to do or what your interests are.
      I could see an Admin moving into marketing, communications, social media, public relations, event planning, project management or specialized software type skills things such as SAP or purchasing. But those are all very different things!
      In general I think you’d have to pick an area and then master something and possible look at getting a certification if it’s needed.

      1. AssistantNeedingAssistance*

        I fear what she’s going to run into is what a number of us have said above: it doesn’t matter what else you’ve done, or what certs you have, because all hiring managers see is “admin” or “assistant,” and, boom, you’re pigeonholed. They don’t care that I want to do (and can abso-freaking-lutely do) accreditation and assessment, or if OP wants to be the Assistant Director for Marketing. They really want the copier fixed and some papers filed and some lunch would be great – and if they can tack higher-level stuff in for cheap, even better.

        1. Emmie*

          There still might be things that OP can do.
          – She could volunteer to take on special projects in the other department she’s interested in. (i.e. She’s an HR Admin, and she starts supporting payroll, or benefits launch, etc…)
          – She could become an admin in the type of department she’s looking to work in.
          – She could move to a small business as an admin. These companies tend to be less committed to job responsibilities and, in my experience, it may give OP room to take on those extra responsibilities to help her resume.
          – She could volunteer to gain additional experience.
          – She could focus on coordinator roles – a step above an admin.
          – I believe she mentioned school costs being a concern. Community Colleges are more affordable, and she could earn certificates in an area that she’s interested in.
          – Join professional groups in her area of interest for networking, and offer to help with projects there.
          It’s not a perfect solution, but there might be field specific options available to her.

          1. Red Panda*

            Agree with your comment about small companies. If possible, I would apply for roles at startups. Once you prove you are a smart and competent admin, you can sit in on meetings that interest you, and start taking on more meaningful work. Eventually new teams need to be hired to handle the increased client base and as a trusted employee, they are more willing to take a chance on you to move into a different department.

            That being said, start-ups are rough and very fast paced so ability to work quickly and with few mistakes is vital to making this work.

    13. Elizabeth H.*

      Do you have (non-helping-people-with-stuff) skills you do in the course of your job that you like more and would like to focus more on?

      I have faced this issue in some aspects/forms and I think I’ve been pretty successful in moving into focusing on different tasks (in my current job)/changing roles internally/interviewing for outside positions that focus more on the type of work I want to do like analysis of numbers, budgets, database stuff, internal research, data coordination because that is what I love and try to do as much of as possible in the scope of my job. I talk this up a lot and have been successful in turning what could be a generic program coordinator type role into one where I have a ton of involvement in data and analysis. That’s because I had an interest in it and taught myself a bunch of stuff to get better at it like Excel, statistics, reading social science books, looking at database theory, etc.

      If you have something you have an interest in and can expand more within the scope of your current job, then you will have projects you can highlight in interviews for different types of roles that do that thing.

    14. Zip Zap*

      What kind of work would you like to do? Is there anything you can teach yourself and then showcase online? Things like graphic design, writing code, and writing content tend to lend themselves to that. But it could be all kinds of things – foreign language skills, photography, whatever. Try to build some kind of an online portfolio. In addition to this, you could also build your resume by volunteering or taking on a very part time additional job, like some freelance projects.

      Then go apply for something better! Don’t be afraid to reach for things you might be under-qualified for. If employers see that you’re taking the initiative to work your way up from admin work through things like self education and volunteering, many of them will be impressed.

      And get out and talk to people. Let people know you’re job hunting and that you’re looking for something more challenging. As the saying goes, you never know who knows who.

      Good luck!

  4. Chupalupe*

    My team of four is currently down two team members and my last remaining team member is pretty much useless at getting anything done. AGHH.

    1. NPOQueen*

      I’ve been there. You can see it as a challenge or an opportunity; I had to pull a lot of weight when my team was halved, but I was open to new projects and learning. By the end of it, I’d received a bonus for my work while my team was tiny, and I had the ear of the more powerful people in my department. It sucks to be in the middle of it though, but if you can, push to see when those positions will be filled.

      1. Chupalupe*

        I’m already the top performer in the department, but I’m on the hiring committee, so I know it’s not being filled any time soon.

        1. medium of ballpoint*

          Oof, I’m sorry. It’s tough to limp along when you’re short staffed. We had an open position that went unfilled for a year and it was getting a little Mad Max in there before we finally hired someone. Good luck weathering this one!

    2. Bea W*

      BTDT. Left my job. My manager refused to address the uselessness of the team member who was actually not even on my team, but was making a ton of work for me by being totally useless. I wasn’t even being consulted over hiring of replacements for the people my manager poached from my team to give to the useless person’s team. I was doing the work of 3 people. It sucked the life out of my for 6 months, and I was done.

      Any chance your manager would be more helpful than mine was?

    3. babblemouth*

      That really sucks. I’ve been in a team with reduced staff where the remaining members were great, and THAT was hard enough. I thought the extra work we all put in would be recognised, but it wasn’t. While overtime was expected often to make up for the lack of staff, no flexibility was given to us in return.

      It’s been over two years, and I’m in a new job, and I’m STILL bitter about it when I think about it.

  5. Generic Administrator*

    I need help. I want to tell my boss that I detest my job and the companies hatred of it’s employees. I know nothing can or will change (family business, although my boss is nice the main two owners are awful) but I want to get out in the open. Any advice or thoughts appreciated.

      1. Generic Administrator*

        Maybe a change of duties or transfer to another site if possible. But at this stage I would be open to negotiating a plan to leave. The way they treat people is making me dizzy at times.

        1. Snark*

          Well, “I loathe my job and I think you and the rest of the company treats its employees like you hate us” may be intensely cathartic and would certainly kick off “plan to leave” option, but if you’re actually expecting that to start a discussion that ends with a change of duties or transfer to another office I think you may be unpleasantly surprised. Because if this company is as abusive as you say, my feeling is that this particular conversation starter results in you walking out the door half an hour later with your stuff in a banker’s box and a clear calendar. If you’re open to a transfer, I’d pick different and more constructive messaging.

          1. Generic Administrator*

            I’m in the UK so don’t have to worry about being marched out. I just want to have about my job satisfaction. I’ve worked at places where you could be very open like that but I’m not sure how well my manager would react even though he is reasonable. Other people happily scream and swear and get there own way though!

            1. Akcipitrokulo*

              If manager is reasonable – ask for a meeting with him and give examples of what’s causing the upset. Say feeling frustrated because X or that you felt as if there was a lack of respect during y rather than “I hate them and they treat me like sh*t!!!!”

              Taking notes is probably a good idea – also approach as “I’d like to fix a problem” than “am I allowed to set them on fire?” would be helpful ;)

              Also – if you’re in a union – talk to them. (If not, join one in case this blows up – you cannot get representation for an existing issue when you join.)

            2. Cristina in England*

              Get out before that place warps your sense of what’s normal in a workplace. You don’t want to pick up bad habits that were coping skills here but would damage your reputation in a future workplace.

            3. Wendy Anne*

              Are you positive they won’t walk you out? You’re basically telling them to find you another job or you’ll leave. Why wouldn’t they get rid of you asap with that sort of ultimatum?

            4. Naruto*

              How about “I would like to talk about a change of duties or transfer to another.” Follow that up with “here’s what I’m interested, and how it would make sense for the company.”

              Do NOT say “I would like to talk about how I hate my job and how the company treats its employees.”

            5. Not Australian*

              “I’m in the UK so don’t have to worry about being marched out.”

              Sorry, but that just isn’t true – especially if, for any reason, the employer things you might be interested in sabotaging the workplace, or if there’s the potential for you to – say – steal confidential information. They’d have to pay you, certainly, but they jolly well *could* march you out on the spot, and it’s folly to imagine that it couldn’t happen. (And yes, I’m in the UK too.)

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Yeah, I’d just plan your escape, and once everything is in place, just leave. Your boss knows how horrible the owners are, right? If they’re really a good manager, they probably are hoping you find a better job elsewhere, but won’t say so out of a combination of professionalism and self-preservation.

          If the bosses are that bad, they’d probably veto any plan to improve your lot anyway.

          The only compromise I can think of is that IF you can afford to be job searching for a while, tell your boss that you want to quit, but you will stay if she can promise you whatever concrete change would make things better (like changing duties or transferring), and then make sure to follow through and quit if you don’t get it. It’s not so much an ultimatum as “this is what I need to make this work”.

    2. Manders*

      I’ve never had any luck trying to change the culture of a family business. I just kept my head down, job searched, and got out.

    3. Antilles*

      My advice would be “don’t”.
      My general rule about complaining about your work is that you should only do it if (a) it’s something that’s specific and discrete; and (b) there’s a reasonable chance of it actually getting fixed. Detesting your job and a culture that doesn’t respect employees is neither. Complaining may feel cathartic for about 15 seconds, but that’s about all you’re likely to get. Even in the absolute best case scenario where your boss quietly agrees with you, if the problems stem from higher-up, he’s not going to be able to fix anything. More likely, it’ll backfire and those 15 seconds of catharsis are going to be immediately ruined by negative consequences afterwards.

    4. AnotherHRPro*

      I honestly don’t know what this would do for you other than burn a bridge. If you are that unhappy, you should be looking for a new job. When you have a new job lined up and are resigning you can give them all the feedback you want. But if you want to stay at this organization just in a different role, I do not see how telling your boss that you hate the company and the owners will make that happen. I also don’t understand why you would want to stay there in a different job if it really is that bad.

    5. Kathenus*

      No guarantees it would be effective, but if you picked one or two specific policies or behaviors that might be more easily changed (low-hanging fruit), and present them along with suggested solutions, maybe small steps could be made to allow a better work environment while you’re still there. This way you’re not focusing on your strong feelings about your job or the company’s behavior towards employees, you’re proposing small changes that could improve the workplace – it might be perceived better that way and could help chip away at the more toxic parts of the environment.

  6. Susan*

    In quickly bc I’m asking for a friend/coworker.

    Our company just hired a team leader about two months ago. I’m on a different team but from what I’ve heard and seen, he’s “good with ideas” but assigns the work (esp things he doesnt know) to his team.

    One of the people on his team (my cw) is concerned that when the team leader meets w mgmt & upper mgmt, he’ll present all the ideas as his own and not give him credit for it.

    If it matters here—it’s not a super strict where “underlings” aren’t allowed to take credit.

    What can he do to pre-empt this? Should he do anything?
    And if it already happens, what can he do?

    1. fposte*

      Keep track of her own achievements and make sure they’re included in performance reviews with her actual manager. Otherwise, though, I’d let this go; trying to pre-empt looks weird, and it’s generally assumed that team leaders are talking about their team achievements.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yep. And keep an email trail about the ideas, so that there’s proof you suggested them before they were presented to upper management. Then you have backup when you claim them on your review.

    2. Samiratou*

      As a team leader, assign working to his team, particularly the areas he’s not as familiar with, is his job.

      He should be acknowledging the contributions of the team when meeting with management–does your CW have particular reason to believe he won’t? Otherwise, yes, he should keep track of his own efforts, but if management has brains in their head they’ll realize that the TL isn’t the only one doing things, and I wouldn’t necessarily jump to the worst-case scenario.

  7. Parenthetically*

    Non-US folks who have applied for US jobs! My husband is applying for jobs having recently gotten his green card and it’s a pretty different process/experience than he’s used to. Advice and experiences would be much appreciated.

    1. ZSD*

      It might be useful for us to know what country or countries he’s applied for jobs in before. I would give different advice to someone used to the German job search system than to someone used to the Indian one.

    2. atgo*

      Totally anecdotal from my side here, but I can share what makes international candidates seem outside of the norm from hiring I’ve done.

      I’ve gotten a number of resumes from international applicants that have included information that’s not conventional for US resumes due to our discrimination laws. For example, including age/DOB is not something required (and comes off as out of touch). Also it seems like CVs (in Europe at least) that I’ve received have leaned on the side of a long list spanning multiple pages, while US resumes tend to have more care put to formatting and concise summaries. The US used to have a strong convention of 1 page with intense detail to formatting (especially for more junior roles), though that seems to be relaxing it’s still important to keep things concise.

      1. Justin*

        Some countries (though unlikely Aus) also include pics (they did when I worked in S Korea), same lines as age/DOB and such, just no personal info aside from ways to contact you and name.

        1. Cam*

          G’day, just taking a break from throwing shrimp on the barbie here to say that your suspicion is correct: you shouldn’t include a photo on your CV in Australia.

    3. rj*

      I’m Canadian and work in the US (in academia which is its own special snowflake) – so our conventions are likely to be more similar than Aus/US. But – in my experience US culture is far more enthusiastic and over-the-top in terms of praise than at home. People are not being dishonest, and people have ways of criticizing here too, it’s just different. In the US the culture varies significantly between regions, and between large cities/mid-sized cities/small-towns and rural areas, so it may be more helpful to think about local culture when tailoring a resume or cover letter.

  8. Kim K*

    My supervisor is getting fired today and I’m so, so relieved. It’s been a long time coming. She’s unethical, berates her employees, and has performance issues.

    Of course there will be a learning curve once someone new comes in, but I’m certain it’ll be worth it.

      2. Kim K*

        Her boss (who I frequently report to as well) called me into his office this morning to let me know that I could leave early this afternoon because they were letting her know. I sit right outside of his office where the firing will presumably happen, so he is saving me from potential awkwardness. My supervisor is known for blowing up at small things, and behaving erratically, so it’s likely that she will make a big scene.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          Your boss’s boss is very kind and smart to think of that. I’ve been there, too, and even though my boss’s boss didn’t tell me to leave early, I did. And I’m really glad because I, too, sat right outside my boss’s office. I’m so glad I got the heads-up so I could scoot out of there fast! It was awkward knowing what was going to happen, though.

        4. Bea W*

          I now am having fantasies that this is happening to a high level director at an old many employer years back. I know it’s not the same person/company (and she will continue to be there eating people alive), but I will enjoy the fantasies. Congratulations and good riddance!

        5. Anon4this*

          I am so jealous. My supervisor refers to herself in the third person and uses the royal we in emails. And is also horrid, incompetent and all forms of evil…

        6. Lissa*

          Something similar happened to me, and I felt guilty about how satisfying it was….but not guilty enough not to get glee from it.

          1. Windchime*

            Haha, yes, this. The boss who made my life hell and ultimately led me to leave that job (along with several others) was promoted to Director and then, a couple of months later was fired for bullying and lying. She is now sewing little tote bags and trying to sell them at craft fairs. Oh, how the mighty have fallen! Karma’s a bitch, lady. Have fun with your tote bags.

          2. babblemouth*

            Some horrible person at my job from over two years ago got fired this week – I heard it through the grapevine of former employee. All I could think was “what goes around comes around” and hoped my glee at the news would not impact my karma too much.

      3. Emily*

        When my boss was fired, I knew ahead of time because his boss’s admin clued me in. She knew I was job searching and was hoping knowing my boss was in the process of getting fired would inspire me to stay (it didn’t).

      4. AnnaBanana*

        Interesting. I recently had to fire a member of my four person team and I felt it would be disrespectful to tell the other two before the guy who was being fired. I asked them to get offside because ‘I needed to have a difficult HR meeting’ – pretty sure they knew exactly what was going down but I didn’t actually tell them until afterwards (they were both very relieved that the problem had been dealt with)

  9. Regretting my new job*

    First: apologies for length, I am very frustrated and could really use some help. TL;DR, I started a job six weeks ago after moving to a new state and don’t like it very much but I’m not sure if I should stick it out due to a job-hopper-y resume or if I should just cut and run. Thanks for listening.

    I recently moved states due to my husband’s job (military). I work in, say, blue teapot sales and in my previous position was quite successful. I also enjoyed the work immensely, despite the long hours. One thing that greatly contributed to my enjoyment of the work was the fact that my boss trusted me to get my work done and didn’t track when I was in the office. (I realize this is how most salaried jobs are supposed to work, but he truly didn’t care when I was there as long as I got the work done, which he trusted I would–and I always did.)

    In my new state, I interviewed for a blue teapot sales manager position at a much larger and more formally corporate company than I had worked for previously. They also had a red teapot sales position open, which they offered to me when they hired someone else for the blue teapots position. I find red teapot sales somewhat boring, but the salary was good and I needed a job. Both my direct manager and the general manager explained that they knew this wasn’t exactly what I wanted, but that they loved my resume and wanted me on the team. The general manager in particular was concerned that I would just use this position as a way to get to the city we moved to, but I assured him we were moving here regardless due to my husband’s job and that I wasn’t just trying to get to the city at any cost. But my direct manager also talked at length about how she wants to help her reports grow their careers in the direction they want, and would absolutely help me move over to a blue teapot position once one became available again, so I was convinced to take the job.

    I was surprised to find upon receiving my formal offer that the “salary” they offered wasn’t technically a salary. Not only would I have to clock in and out, I would also have to work 47.5 hours/week in order to make the salary they had offered. Despite hating that idea, I accepted the job due to it being the only one on offer, and the fact that I did really want to work at this particular company.

    I’ve been in the job now for six weeks, and…I kinda hate it. Every morning I wake up and want to quit. My schedule is 7-4:30, M-F. I regularly worked more hours per week in my previous job than I do now, but they were spread out more (I worked a lot of weekends due to the nature of the job) and I could come and go as I pleased. Now, I feel watched, and as if I can’t be trusted to take care of what I need to do in the appropriate amount of time. And while the commute is a dream (15-20 minutes in the morning, a little more in the afternoon with traffic), the 9.5 hour workday EVERY DAY is killing me. If I was doing something I enjoyed, it might be different, but I find the job somewhat boring and the time-tracking oppressive.

    Before I even took the job, I asked if I could work 45 hours during the week and a couple hours on Saturdays and was told no; I asked if I could work only 45 hours total and take a pay cut, and I was told no. I am regretting taking the job now, which I only did because I was afraid of moving without a job to go to.

    There is some very minor flexibility in that we can basically choose our own schedules as long as we arrive by 8:30 every morning. For what it’s worth, I chose the schedule I did because I wanted to be able to go to the gym after work and be home before 9pm, and because I find getting up pretty much anytime before 7:30 horrible so starting an hour or so later wouldn’t make much of a difference in my hatred of the morning, whereas staying until 6pm or later would have a huge impact on my quality of life after work. But I find myself so exhausted after a 9.5-10 hour day that I’ve only made it to the gym once since I’ve started here, and I also feel terrible that my dog is alone all day since my husband works long hours as well. Not to mention that I suffer from migraines and seem to be getting more of them since I started the job. (I actually had to call in sick this morning due to having one of the worst migraines I’ve had in years.)

    I’m afraid this has become a self-fulfilling prophecy because I wasn’t overly excited about the job even when I accepted it, and I’ve tried to give it a good faith effort but I admit I came into it with an attitude of “well they didn’t think I was good enough for the job I wanted so I got the lame leftovers.” It doesn’t help that any concerns I’ve brought up to my boss, whether over the hours or struggles I’ve been having with cold calling or whatever, have been met with a flippant “well if you want to be in sales you’ll need to get used to it,” so I’ve been feeling very invalidated and as if helping me adjust to this new environment isn’t worth my boss’s time. (These concerns have not been brought up in formal meetings, just in passing, but it still makes me feel badly when they’re brushed off.)

    Another complicating factor here is that my longest job at this point has been about 18 months, with only one additional stay of over a year and a smattering of 10-11 month jobs, in addition to about a 10-month gap, all within the six years since I’ve graduated college. This is partially due both to being a military spouse and badly-timed layoffs (i.e. got laid off 10 months into a job when we had less than a year left in that particular city, which resulted in another 10 month stay somewhere else). I was looking forward to being at this company for a longer stay, but right now I don’t see that happening and hate the idea of having another resume gap.

    I guess what I’m asking is this: is six weeks enough to know that a job isn’t for you? I am still ramping up, so to speak, and won’t be given full responsibility (ie full sales goals) until December. Part of me wants to hold out until then to see if it gets better; another part wants to bail before my dislike of the job makes me fail at doing it for real; yet another part wants to do my absolute best and blow everyone out of the water and then, having proved myself, request a schedule adjustment. For what it’s worth, I get along with my coworkers and they’ve all been very helpful and pleasant while I’ve been onboarding, and I enjoy seeing them each day. But if I don’t love the job and hate the hours, are nice coworkers enough to stay? Is it worth trying to ask for a schedule change once I’ve proven myself, or is their initial inflexibility enough to assume they won’t budge even if I’m a high performer? Should I just cut and run (once I find something better, that is)? I’m so conflicted–I’ve never disliked a job so much right out of the gate before. I truly appreciate any advice and again, I apologize for the length of this screed–it’s been building up for several weeks!

    1. Murphy*

      I’d say that you have enough information to say this job isn’t for you. (It sounds awful.) And if you’re able to find something quickly, you don’t even have to put it on your resume as another short stay.

      1. Chupalupe*

        I think given that you have a husband in the military, it’s also a lot more understandable. But you have to be aware that you might not be able to get perfect matches all the time every time if you move around a lot. How long are you anticipating staying in the city you’re currently in?

        1. Regretting my new job*

          We’ll be here a minimum of two years, probably three, could potentially wrangle a fourth if we wanted (but depends on the whims of the military, obviously).

    2. J*

      Short answer: yep. Six weeks is more than long enough to know it’s not for you. There’s no harm is waiting until December to see if it gets better, but the elements that are unsatisfactory don’t seem like the kind of thing that will go away at that point.

      Is it worth talking to your supervisor about your dissatisfaction? I’m not sure what possibilities there might be for easing up on some of the more uncomfortable elements, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

      FWIW, I took a job last year because we were moving. While I loved that job and enjoyed my co-workers and boss, the commute was terrible. I lasted all of two weeks before I started looking elsewhere.

      1. Regretting my new job*

        I’ve thought about bringing things up with her, but I’m afraid that 1) I’ll get the “this is how this industry is and if you want to do this kind of job you just have to get used to it” speech (which isn’t true, because my last job was not like this at all) or 2) she’ll accuse me of taking the job under false pretenses or something (like the GM was afraid of) and try to push me out before I’m ready to leave or 3) she’ll just brush off my concerns like she has when I’ve brought them up less formally.

        I’ve thought about going to the doctor about my migraines and seeing if it’s worth requesting some sort of medical accommodation (shorter/more flexible hours, etc). The schedule is really the sticking point for me. If I didn’t have to get up in the dark every day and track my hours instead of being treated like an adult, I think I’d be a lot happier even if the job wasn’t exactly what I wanted.

        1. Jadelyn*

          It sounds like your job has some pretty serious issues and I absolutely don’t blame you for wanting to get out – especially since your boss doesn’t seem to actually care about your concerns! – but there’s one thing I notice that may be within your control to change and which could make this less worse for you until you can get out, and that’s your attitude toward having to track your time.

          On the one hand, I get it – I’m a very independent person as well, and I tend to work best when I feel like I have the freedom to plan and execute my work the way I think will work best for me. I’m not a huge fan of hourly time-tracking either. But a couple times in this thread I’ve seen you refer to the hourly/exempt divide as “being treated/not treated like an adult”, which 1: is perhaps unnecessarily harsh toward, y’know, actual adults who work in hourly roles, and 2: may be coloring your perception of your schedule even more negatively than it needs to be.

          Being hourly (or being exempt but having to track your time, it’s not quite clear to me which is the case from your OP) isn’t a reflection on you as a person or as an independent adult. It’s just their choice of how to manage employees’ schedules. It may not be the best choice for your role! It may be really dumb of them to do it this way, and it sounds like that’s probably the case tbh. But it’s the choice they’ve made. And it might make things easier for you or lessen some of the resentment you seem to have toward your employer if you were able to mentally reframe the time-tracking thing as just an internal process of this company – one you thoroughly and understandably dislike, of course, but not them treating you like a child/failing to treat you like an adult.

          1. Regretting my new job*

            I’m technically classified as an “overtime eligible manager,” but I only get paid for the hours I work so I guess I’m hourly.

            I appreciate this perspective and have been battling with it myself. It’s just that every hourly job I’ve had, which is really just this one and another part time one a couple years ago, have been infantalizing in that if you don’t make your hours exactly, or you go one minute over, or your break is too long or too short, you get a nastygram from HR/accounting. Everyone in my office is stressed out about making their hours. It just seems like an unnecessary and invasive thing to worry about on top of an already stressful job. And it’s a relatively new thing, too, put in place before that overtime rule was about to go through and then never changed back when it didn’t. And to add insult to injury, the “salary” they offered me was well above the new threshold anyway, so why do I need to be hourly in the first place?

            Considering the nature of my job, it makes a lot more sense (in my mind) to be able to work as much as I need to in order to get the job done. Not only does this allow me to work more hours when needed (because we’re supposed to work 47.5 hours, no more no less), it also allows me freedom to have a life outside of work during slow periods when I will just be sitting there twiddling my thumbs. I had to work on Labor Day (because we don’t get paid holidays either, so it was either work or take the day unpaid) and I literally sat at my desk and crocheted and listened to Welcome to Night Vale all day.

            Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think a job should be that way. =\

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Honestly, this sounds like a retail job. Which is why so many retailers have problems keeping help.

              Unless you can find a way to console yourself, you may have to leave the job. Lots of people find a way to make do, not necessarily happy about it but they make do. (Not trying to say there is something wrong if you can’t, I am just saying that it can be done even though it’s not enjoyable.)

              It looks like you leave the house with in one hour of waking? I used to do that and I found I “missed” my house too much. I actually needed to be up a couple hours before going to work or it felt like all I did was work and sleep.
              Another thing you might consider is skipping the gym in favor taking the dog for a walk.

              I think the part that bothers me the most is your boss is not supporting you. She did not want you hired and now she is failing to provide support. It is like she is setting you up to fail. That to me is a deal breaker.
              I don’t think that working your butt off to gain enough favor so that you have better hours is a viable plan here. These are rigid, thankless folks and they probably will not change. If you are going to run at this job with all you have, do it for reasons that are not contingent on the actions of other people. Specifically, do it because it helps you meet your personal goals at this time. Perhaps you need to build a nest egg or pay down some bills, that might be a good reason for making lemonade here.

              1. Regretting my new job*

                She did want me hired, that’s the thing. It felt like they were begging me to take this job and then when I asked for a couple of things in return, they told me no. I probably should have just walked away at that point, but I was so paranoid about not having a job that I didn’t feel I could do that.

                If I were to spend a couple hours in the house before leaving in the morning, I’d be getting up at 4:30am. That is a big no. Getting up at 6 to leave at 6:30 is hard enough, I’m not gonna wake up at 4:30 or 5 just to sit around in my house before I leave in the morning.

                It’s not a retail job–it’s a sales job in an office with a large, internationally known company. In a position that was normally salaried until that overtime rule was about to pass, so they changed everything, and then the rule didn’t go through but they didn’t change things back.

                I think you (and most of the other commenters) are right that I’m going to have to leave, it’s just so hard for me to give up on something so quickly. I hate feeling like a quitter.

    3. Liz2*

      I’d say you can definitely know it’s not for you, but you really need to look at your screening processes better.

      “the salary was good and I needed a job” is a fine criteria, and that’s exactly what you have now.

      Moving is always hard even if it’s part of the normal life of a service person. Unless a dream job drops into your lap, I’d say just do what you can to fill your life with awesomeness and after 2 years, go seeking the job that is fulfilling, not just the paycheck.

      1. Regretting my new job*

        I agree with you about my screening process. I was blinded by wanting so badly to work for this company that I thought I could make the hours work against my better instincts (plus I was really scared of moving without a job). Maybe I shouldn’t have been, but I’ve never done it before and even though we can afford to live on my husband’s salary, we’re much more comfortable with two incomes. The only time I’ve moved without a job was when we were only going to be stationed somewhere about 10 months so it didn’t make much sense for me to try to get a job…and after two months not working I was going CRAZY. I didn’t want that to happen again :(

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed. And work on your self-talk. You are not helping yourself by forcing yourself into places where you think you will fail. Encourage yourself to take jobs where it looks pretty good that you will succeed.
            I could be off base here but it looks like you gave yourself a good hard scare for no real reason. Granted, staying home for ten months is not fun, but it’s not fatal either. Decide that if you ever get “stuck” at home again you will use your time wisely, you will fill your days by scheduling free online classes, volunteering and so on. Or maybe you could find a work from home position that would travel with you and moving would be less hassle.
            In short, it never goes well when we let our emotions make decisions for us. Decide that instead of panic you will build actual plans of things to try.

    4. anna green*

      I had this whole answer planned saying it didn’t seem that bad etc. etc. because my brain automatically corrected your hours to 37.5, which seemed reasonable. Then I finally realized you said 47.5 required for a salary and you are clocking in, etc. And yeah that sounds like it sucks. I don’t know what to tell you to do. It never hurts to look around and see what other options there are.

    5. Koko*

      You sound pretty miserable, and also it sounds like your previous short stays weren’t as much related to just not liking the job – your job either disappeared, or you had to move. Those don’t count so much in terms of alarming an employer as long as you could assure them your husband is assigned to this location for at least a year/2 years/whatever.

      I’d say at minimum, start looking! You have nothing to lose by seeing what’s out there. Maybe you won’t see anything better out there, but maybe you will! Maybe you won’t get the job you apply for, but maybe you will! At least start a search, apply if you see anything good, and see what your options really are. On the chance that you come to not mind your job so much, you can always change your mind and decide to stay later. But you need to have options available to you so you can make that choice and not just be stuck where you are by default.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        +1 – start looking. Don’t let the boss or GM or anyone “guilt” you into staying. Cite health reasons, if you must, when you finally find another job and/or have had enough that you just quit. Make a plan to get out, it will help you feel better about the situation.

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Frankly, I think you’re better off leaving now. You can leave this job off your resume entirely and not have to contend with an additional blow to your “job-hoppery resume.” Your relocation is explanation enough for being out of work at the moment.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This is a really great point – no need to have a short stay on the resume if you leave pretty quickly, and relocating because of the military is a pretty easily understandable excuse for a gap in your resume.

    7. Alice*

      If the job is making you sick (and from the sounds of it, it is), leave and don’t look back. You gave it your best effort, but i’d say the increase in migraines, and being tired all the time is your body’s way of telling you this isn’t a good fit. Why prolong the agony. If asked in an interivew, you can honestly say that the job wasn’t a good fit. No harm, no foul.

    8. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      You know this job isn’t right for you. Start looking for other options.

      As far as your job-hopping, I don’t think that is as much of an issue if you address that you are a military spouse in your cover letter.

    9. Michelle*

      I knew once on the first day that the job wasn’t for me! The hiring process went well, everyone seemed positive and then on the first day, complete 180. The “training” was 3 inch, 3 ring binder I was supposed to sit in a little room and read. The manager/owner left at lunch and forget to tell me that I was suppose to cover the front, then had a meltdown when she got back. I waited for her to calm down, then went to her office and told her that taking this job was a mistake and I hoped she could find someone else, but I would not be returning. I also told her that she should make a reminder in her calendar to let the new person know that they were supposed to cover her when she left and actually TELL them. She must have been in shock because she just sat threw with her mouth slightly open, did not speak a word or make a sound so I just left.

      Maybe start looking around now because you sound miserable. Good luck!

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Not going to lie, I pictured you walking out with all sorts of fireworks and fanfare after that. Polite and to the point way of doing it–thanks for sharing!

    10. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Even if some of the other things change, it sounds like the hours won’t. It’s a bad fit. It’s not the job itself, it’s the hours that are killing you. You thought the hours might be tolerable for you, they aren’t. No point dragging it out a few more months. Have you thought about the type of track record you’d need to get the hours you want? I’m not in sales, but it seems like that may be a year or more down the road. Can you see yourself doing this shift that long without significant impact on your health/wellness/relationship?

      The manager (or the GM) is going to believe what they want anyway after you leave–do what’s best for you.

      Right now it’s short enough you could leave it off your resume (as others have mentioned).

      Good luck!

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Sorry, that seems a bit pointed–it’s not supposed to be. It’s more of, “with everything considered, will you be happy continuing on?” In a questioning tone. Working on my wording, as always…

        And–yes, I would say six weeks is more than enough. When my last job had an upheaval (reorg and staffing changes, new management), I knew in about a month that it wasn’t going to work for me anymore. I went back and forth on if I was being too harsh because maybe it was just the change in style and I was being stubborn, maybe I should give it more time, etc.

        I stayed another 8 months or so (I did look in the meantime) and it didn’t change for the better. If I could do it over again, I would have ramped up my search and left even earlier.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Well… sometimes you can give yourself a PASS. One short-lived job does not qualify as a “job hopper” and it sounds like you got more of a bait and switch with the salary. Any reasonable hiring manager would understand that, especially if you’ve come from out of state too.
      I say if you can afford to quit, quit. Now that you have moved, it will be easier to search in new state/city.

    12. Competent Commenter*

      Not to disagree with all the other advice here, but as a complementary perspective: when I recently started my job, I was exhausted every day. It was so much work to interface with new people, new space, and you’re also in a new town. So maybe if you do end up sticking it out a bit longer, some of that will die down as you acclimate. This is not to deny your feelings about the job, though.

      1. Regretting my new job*

        I’ve considered this as well. I just don’t know how long it’s supposed to take for me to get used to this, the hours in particular. I mean, I had to be at the bus stop for high school at 6:15 every morning for FOUR YEARS and I never got used to it. I’m just not an early riser and I never have been. There are literally home videos of me as a kid on Christmas morning where my parents came into my room to wake me up and I was STILL GRUMPY despite the fact that I was a kid and it was Christmas. That is how much of a morning person I’m not.

  10. Savannnah*

    I gave notice in June to my dysfunctional boss that I would be leaving in February. He asked me to keep quiet to our team of 5 full time plus 20 part time direct reports of mine so they don’t ‘freak out’ and I am wondering how long I should wait to tell my coworkers. He is the director and I’m the unofficial assistant director and the only other salaried person on our team. I’m in the middle of overseeing a 5 year merger which is lifting off in January. I’m also taking off 3 weeks for my honeymoon in December and getting anxious about finding a replacement for my position before then so I have time to train them in our very specialized field. He has made zero moves to recruit someone or even let our grand boss know about the notice, even though our HR dept is inept and it takes months to hire someone once they are identified. How much time do I owe to him before it becomes unfair to my coworkers, who are not trained to do the work I am doing? My position is not easily filled and I don’t want to seem like I’m somehow screwing with my coworkers.

    1. Liz2*

      None. I’ve never personally seen a case where giving extra notice ends up being a good outcome for the employee.

      Two weeks notice, that’s all.

    2. Kim Possible*

      You could go back to your boss and ask him if it makes sense to tell your coworkers that you’re leaving at this time (or at X time in the near future). But ultimately, you can’t allow his lack of protectiveness to replace you to worry you. If he doesn’t give you a reasonable amount of time to train your replacement before you leave, that’s his problem.

    3. The IT Manager*

      Well, it’s not your responsibility to stay on until they hire your replacement and you finish training them. It does sound like your disfunctional boss is throwing away your very generous warning of your departure.

      If you think it won’t result in being pushed out, you should think about telling either your boss’s boss or HR so that one of them might light a fire under your boss to start searching for your replacement. I’d give your boss another push, but then go over his head or around them.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You could use your impending honeymoon as an excuse to start cross-training your coworkers and documenting your job duties. Presumably they already know about that. Even if you weren’t leaving you should have someone who is trained to cover/replace you at any time.

    5. Snark*

      I think you’ve already given him more notice and time than is reasonable or typical, and if he can’t get out of his own way, that is a problem for him to solve – not you. You are not responsible for filling your own position, and if he screws your coworkers, that’s on him. Not your circus, not your monkeys.

    6. Target Shopper*

      This happened to me once.

      I gave several months notice and was asked to keep it quiet until closer to my departure date so the company could “handle the message”. It blew up when a not in my department coworker who I barely knew made an off hand comment about my upcoming departure while presenting at an all company meeting. He found out by overhearing my boss talking to another manager and thought it was common knowledge! No one blamed me because I was clearly shocked at the way everyone found out. It was very clear how it all went down to my coworkers.

      But, they didn’t start LOOKING until then and didn’t hire someone until my last week. I did the best I could to train them and left the rest up to my boss.

      In short, your coworkers won’t think you’re screwing them…they know who makes the hiring decisions and holds the screwdriver.

    7. neverjaunty*

      You already know your boss is dysfunctional. There is no reason to suppose his request or his reasoning for you to keep quiet about leaving is any less dysfunctional.

      Also, seriously, ‘so they don’t freak out’ is a dumb reason. He just doesn’t want to deal with the fact that you’re leaving and if nobody else knows, on some level he can pretend you’re not. (I had a boss like this.) You’ve given him PLENTY of time to give the word to higher-ups. It’s long past time for you to let others know so THEY can plan.

    8. Turquoise Cow*

      If your grand boss is more competent and reasonable than this one sounds, I’d consider talking to him directly. Someone needs to be able to plan more long-term, and it kind of sounds like your boss is in denial, or is thinking of the situation as really far away and he doesn’t have to deal with it right now.

    9. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Do you have it documented that you gave notice? I’d be a bit concerned he hasn’t notified anyone (HR in addition to the GrandBoss).

      Also, doing documentation/cross-training is always sound if you can do it. They may not find a good candidate until after you are gone anyway. You can call it the lottery plan* for your group and start doing that for all the critical tasks (not just yours).

      *lottery plan instead of “hit by a bus plan”. Sounds less morbid. Also, in my head I call it the “see ya suckers!” plan. :D

    10. Camellia*

      He hasn’t let Grand Boss know yet???? I would definitely “tell” Grand Boss by making some small allusion to your departure in a matter of fact, of-course-you-know-because-boss-told-you, way. Then you can act suitably shocked to find out that he didn’t!
      That may prevent burning bridges at the Grand Boss level and may get you a better reference. If you don’t say anything and Grand Boss is blind-sided, I’m sure Boss will blame you and claim that you screwed them on the notice.

  11. FDCA In Canada*

    I’ve been dealing with a company that I’m very interested in–it’s an opportunity to work 100% from home at a good wage doing something I’d be good at. I did great on the phone screen, great on the written exercise, and on Tuesday the recruiter asked if I was available for an in-person interview Friday (today). That would involve a little travel for me, but I was, and then….radio silence. I emailed her back saying yes on Wednesday morning, then again yesterday, then finally called yesterday evening–because I needed to know whether or not I had an interview this morning! She got back to me saying that there had been an issue with the hiring team and they needed to push it back to next week, which was fine, so OK. The recruiter works with a number of companies, not just this one, and I’m wondering–is a somewhat unresponsive recruiter at all a signal about what the job itself will be like? I’m thinking no, but I’m going to be able to ask a lot of my questions in-person next week with a fine-tooth comb. I’ve got another job offer in my back pocket, so I’m not as concerned as I was, but this remote job would be much better–work from home, better pay, better hours, etc., so I’m hoping it shakes out for me despite the recruiter’s flakiness. I’ve never worked with one before–I’ve only ever interviewed with the managers who would become my actual managers–so this is all new here.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Even if she’s an internal recruiter, unless you’re applying for a job in HR or recruiting, it’s not necessarily all that indicative of what a job elsewhere in the organization would be like.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Yeah, our internal HR team are flakier than a vat of dandruff. The managers in my department are not.

    2. Natasha*

      I’ve talked to a few flaky recruiters. It can be frustrating, but I guess there’s flaky people in every field (it was hardest dealing with flaky leasing managers when looking for an apartment). If you have another job offer, though, maybe mention that because she might pass that on to the company and they might decide to interview you sooner.

  12. LSP*

    Does anyone have any advice about switching fields? I’m a project manager with most of my experience in government, and a background in communications. I have wanted to work in the nonprofit for ages, but without much free time to volunteer, I’m not sure how to make that transition. It seems most nonprofits don’t hire project managers per se, but there do seem to be a number of transferable skills.

    1. Chupalupe*

      I’m a non-profit program manager – we hire a ton of people from government. I’d actually pretty much consider it the same field given that so many organizations work very closely with governments due to funding. If you don’t want to stay within the program operations sphere, I’d look into proposal development – they usually specifically look for people with government experience.

        1. Chupalupe*

          You can take courses on grant writing; they’re usually pretty short and not very expensive. What kind of non-profit do you want to go into?

          You can also offer to volunteer for a small non-profit that may not be even hiring for a volunteer if that makes sense? I have a friend who approached our local library with an offer to help them get grant funding – they were very grateful and hadn’t even considered that they would be eligible for funds. She was able to leverage that into a part-time paid position, and they brought her on full-time about a year ago. Grant funds can often pay for your time (the first grant she applied for and won pays her salary), so that’s easier to pitch to an organization.

          1. LSP*

            That’s interesting. I’m getting over an injury from a car accident right now, which is taking up a lot of my free time (physical therapy), so this may be something I could maybe start on in the new year.

            I’m pretty broadly interested in nonprofits that assist people in need, weather it be health-related or food security-based, etc. I have some personal experience with losing more than one very close loved one to cancer (leukemia in particular) and it would mean a lot to me to be able to work for an organization that focuses on that, but right now, I really just want to get experience in the nonprofit field, and eventually find a position in an organization with that focus.

    2. Koko*

      At larger nonprofits project managers are pretty common. My 600-person org has a lot of them, especially in comms-related areas (membership, web team, digital marketing, marcomm, advocacy).

      1. LSP*

        My problem is that I am a 2-hour commute from the nearest big city where there would likely be a host of large nonprofits with opportunities. Maybe if I were earlier in my career (younger) and didn’t have a family, that would be something I would consider, but I know my limits, so I’m trying to find something with no more than a 45-minute commute. The area I live in isn’t rural by any means, but most of the nonprofits around here tend to be smaller.

        Are there other titles that I should look for that might mean project manager, but are more commonly used in the nonprofit field?

        1. Koko*

          Some of them do have Project Manager titles. On our digital team the senior folks in charge of social media and publish web content are known as Digital Project Managers or similar. In membership the people responsible for trafficking work and keeping projects on schedule are known as Production Managers. Advocacy has a Campaign Communications Manager.

          Within the program departments, Program Manager is common, and usually a bit senior to Project Manager roles but it’s not necessarily a career track to go from Proj Manage > Prog Manager. Program Managers do PM-type work but usually are overseeing more projects at a higher level than Project Managers, who tend to focus more narrowly on one project.

          Program Specialists also can often have PM-type work, though that’s such a generic nonprofit title you’d want to really check the job description to verify. (Among other similar titles, Program Associates, Coordinators, and Assistants are typically doing more administrative work, on the other hand.)

          Most but not all jobs here that start with “Manager, [whatever]” indicates some type of project management role rather than a people management role. Those people often supervise a couple of junior employees who do the work of the projects. The people who are really doing mostly people management have “Senior Manager,” “Director,”or “Managing Director,” at the front of their titles.

        2. H.C.*

          Associates and coordinators are also common titles for people who do project management work – but they’re usually in specific fields (e.g. Communication Associate, Development Coordinator); also, be sure to vet the “coordinator” openings – which is sometimes used for admins.

  13. Ms. Meow*

    How do I get someone to stop starting questions with “Okay, I have a stupid question…”?

    Background: we’re young women Ph.Ds in a scientific field. I’m 2 years older than her and supervise her work (I assign and review tasks, but don’t actually manager her). She’s a hard working and talented chemist, but I feel like she discredits herself by saying that. I know if any of my older male peers supervised her, they would not see her in a good light if she came to them with self-proclaimed “stupid questions”. I want to break her of that habit. Any suggestions?

    1. ZSD*

      She might not even realize she’s doing it. I’d sit with her and say, “I’ve noticed you have a verbal tic you might not be aware of. You tend to preface each question you have with, ‘I have a stupid question.’ Your questions aren’t at all stupid, and I’m worried that you’re painting yourself in a bad light by introducing them that way. You might want to work on breaking the habit.”

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Agreed. Just tell her. Point out it affects how she is seen – and also reflects on the team as a whole.

        She probably doesn’t notice or feels awkward asking – some reassurance that it’s OK to ask questions, and a couple of suggested alternate intros “I have a question…” “Can I confirm that…” can help.

        1. Turkletina*

          I’ve had some success training myself to say “naïve question” instead of “stupid question” when I ask about things that seem really basic. Re-framing it in terms of not having a lot of experience with X lets people know that I’m thinking about the rationale behind X and that I’m aware of what I don’t know.

      2. K.*

        Yep. I did this with a woman I worked with who prefaced nearly everything she said with “Sorry, but …” She was younger and junior to me but didn’t report to me, and I felt like she was undermining herself right out of the gate. It was a verbal tic – she knew she did it but didn’t realize how often.

        I have a colleague who’s a former lawyer and she said one of the first things she did when she started practicing was to refrain from apologizing unless she was actually apologizing for wrongdoing, because she couldn’t be in court prefacing her statements with “Sorry, but …” and expect to be taken seriously.

    2. Snark*

      I would be, and have been, pretty blunt with issues like this. She’s not coming off well and she’s devaluing herself and her contributions. I’d tell her you’ve noticed the tic, tell her it’s going to harm her career and reputation if she keeps it up, and strongly advise her to find a different framing.

      1. Snark*

        What is the deal with this? I’ve known several women, usually younger, usually in technical fields, who do this, and they seemingly have no idea how badly it comes off, and how much that lack of confidence in one’s question also undermines others’ confidence in them.

        1. LCL*

          Ah, it’s the wishy washy apology phrasing we (women) pick up if we’re not careful. Interestingly, when used by a man or someone in authority, it can come across as very sarcastic, like the questioner is really saying to the questionee ‘explain how this stupid thing you just suggested can ever work.’ Best just to tell her what she is doing and to stop.

        2. Ms. Meow*

          Personally, I know women in STEM fields who do this because prefacing a question with the fact that it may be stupid is much easier than being called stupid by someone (usually older and male). Women get “trained” to do this in graduate programs where tenured professors who think they’re god’s gift will crap on any idea that they think is unworthy. But that’s just what I’ve experienced.

          2. Lenore*

            Yep! This is why I do it. If I acknowledge it’s a stupid question (though it’s usually not), then I can often bypass someone else saying it’s a stupid question.

            1. Ducky*

              Plus, it helps keep insecure men from feeling like you’re “attacking” them when you have a question. If I ask “Why did you make the teapots blue?” they might think I’m attacking their plan and think blue is absolutely the wrong color and oh god, here come the “Ducky shuts people down” complaints again. If I ask “This is probably a stupid question, but why did you make the teapots blue?” they relax because clearly I just need another explanation.

              Happens all the time in IT, unfortunately. I hate that I have to soften my language, but I undeniably have less friction when I do. Without management to back up speaking directly, there’s nothing I can do about it. :(

              1. Camellia*

                I prefer the phrase “Help me understand…”, so “Help me understand why you made the teapots blue.”

                1. Camellia*

                  Also, it’s a command and not a question, which I think projects a stronger image without having to run over people.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            I had a male boss who used this expression and it did not look good on him either. When he prefaced his questions this way, we knew it was one of two things: 1) the question was actually stupid or 2) we were in a heap of crap. Either way the urge to strangle him came up at the very start of the phrase.

            A good rule of thumb is that any phrase which is used routinely is probably going to wear on people in some manner and probably never in the speaker’s favor. I would also be careful about using the “help me to understand” phrasing mentioned below for similar reasons. That same boss would use this phrasing also and it always made me wonder why his questions needed these crutches.

        3. medium of ballpoint*

          A lot of it is trained behavior from a dysfunctional system. Academic hard science/tech programs can be absolutely brutal on women and they learn at the tricks they can to get through in one piece, which are often about protecting/soothing someone else’s ego. Sometimes they still serve a purpose in the work world, depending on the people and environment. Otherwise, it’s just an ingrained behavior.

        4. Jadelyn*

          It’s a preemptive defense mechanism, possibly with a touch of Imposter Syndrome in there. “If I start by calling my question stupid, you can feel magnanimous about helping me with it, whereas if I present it as a reasonable question and you decide it’s stupid, you’re going to berate or mock me for it.” Learned behavior from a sick system that leaves many women with damned if you do/damned if you don’t behaviors like this. And, since in order to unlearn it you have to be ready to face down jerks who want to tell you you’re asking stupid questions, the Imposter Syndrome part becomes a problem because you struggle to have the confidence to stand up for yourself and your questions and your ideas.

    4. Overeducated*

      Oh man. I sometimes do that because I’ve switched from my research field to an applied setting where sometimes I don’t KNOW if something is a stupid question – the people I work with have less academic background than I do but significantly more knowledge of relevant law and institutional process, and I get nervous that if I ask “why can’t we X?” or “how do we Y?” they’ll be like “what a moron, everybody knows that.” So I guess I try to head that off by being humble about my level of knowledge, which may be what she’s trying to do. But it probably isn’t helping to start off that way, and pointing it out might be enough to make a difference.

      1. Snark*

        You can still preface things if you feel you need to – “So, I’m still getting up to speed on the legal context, why do we need to do this X way?”

        But honestly? Prefacing with self-deprecating language is probably more offputting than just asking the question.

        1. Overeducated*

          Thanks. I will try to be more aware of it. Presenting myself as not an eternal beginner is a weakness I am working on in general – I may have transitioned a bit but I still know stuff!

          1. Snark*

            I find that those of us who spent a lot of time chasing advanced degrees tend to have that eternal beginner attitude ingrained really, really deeply.

            1. raisedeyebrow*

              Ugh, I feel this. I tend to preface a lot with, “This may be a silly question, but” and it’s a habit that I’m trying to break myself of. I pick it up in grad school because the men in my program were particularly vicious to the women–I once had a male peer TA for a lower-level graduate class I was taking in an area I was new to, and during a quiz I straight up had a panic attack because he was leaning back in a chair, arms behind his head, staring right at me and smirking. He also ignored us (the women) if we tried to ask questions in that class. And he wasn’t the only problem! I could write a freaking book.

              Anyway… I know it’s a bad habit, but man, I picked it up so I could survive those years of hell without being berated every 10 seconds.

            2. raisedeyebrow*

              I’m sorry, I completely got off track when I got so hoppin’ mad remembering about my graduate experience. I meant to say, “Yes, I agree with your comment about the eternal beginner attitude.”

              Sigh. Someday remembering my degree won’t sting so intensely…

    5. rageismycaffeine*

      I’m 100% guilty of doing this, myself. Thanks for posting about this – it’s a good reminder for me to be aware of my own tendencies.

    6. Lora*

      Ha! I still do this. Although I find it actually helps people to view me as nonthreatening, because usually the question that comes after it usually has implications of “why haven’t you done this yet?” and “do you even know what you are doing?” and “what is this, 1982?” so I tend to frame things as ignorance and genuinely wanting to learn.

      1. Jadelyn*

        “What is this, 1982?” Oh, I hear you there. My parent company’s attitude toward tech solutions and automating processes tends to be “Why should we?” where my company’s attitude is “Why wouldn’t we?” and so I’m perpetually having to nudge people at the parent company to start getting with the times (I joke, privately with my immediate team, that I’m going to drag this company into the 21st century kicking and screaming if necessary) without actually coming out and saying “You’re still doing things as though it were 30 years ago, can we please start doing things the modern way?”

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      Chemist here. When I have to ask a question that might step on toes, I use “I’m not sure if I’m asking the right question here, but……” if I’m unsure about my question. If I’m asking something that seems painfully obvious to me, I ask, “Feel free to shoot me down if someone has already suggested this, but have we tried……”

      Maybe giving her alternate language might help?

      1. fposte*

        The thing is, if I’ve talked to you about prefacing behavior, I’d be unhappy to see those–they’re still prefacing behavior. The goal isn’t alternate language; it’s declarative sentences.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          There’s a difference between self-deprecating and prefacing. Prefacing is necessary sometimes. Sometimes you really have to ask if people tried the obvious or you’re feeling out what the right question to ask is. Being blunt and direct can be seen as being difficult, and not just for women.

          1. fposte*

            But it’s still prefacing, even if you don’t consider it self-deprecating; if you’re being told to do less of it, changing it up isn’t a solution.

            I don’t think it’s a problem to do this sometimes; lots of people do. But if an employee uses prefacing behavior overfrequently in her questions, your suggestions aren’t going to mitigate the problem; she needs to change it up so she doesn’t sound like she’s always focusing on possible responses when she asks a question.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Hm. Seems close to the “Sorry” that’s not needed or “just” whatever. Just tell her–she may not notice (or she may not realize how bad it is)! It’s feedback just like anything else you’d give her.

      Here’s my script:

      “I’ve noticed you tend to preface most of your questions with ‘I have a stupid question’. It’s something that can make people dismiss your question before you even ask it, and you ask good questions! I worry it will impact your career because people will take you less seriously regardless of the good work you are doing. Can you work on not using that, or substituting a different sentence like, ‘I’ve got a question, please let me know when you have a minute?’ “

    9. Chaordic One*

      The advice offered by the others here is sound. When she gets around to asking her question, answer it thoughtfully, completely and respectfully. If and when she realizes that questions are not (usually) stupid, she’ll get over this annoying bad habit.

  14. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

    We are hiring again and the resumes are killing me. I want to e-mail a bunch of the candidates this website. We are only on the first set passed through by HR and we have a 7 pager from someone who just finished school, fancy, flashy formatting that attempts to hide the lack of content, use of the first person, and some folks who clearly didn’t read the job description. I don’t know how HR folks do it. I’d go insane and I am only seeing the ones that were good enough to get sent on!

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Holy crap yes. I can’t believe how terrible the stuff I’ve gotten with my current vacancy has been. And to your note about the folks who have just finished school – don’t they have career offices in universities? Are people just not making good use of them or are they that bad??

      1. JN*

        Not all universities do. The one I graduated from had one at that time, then dropped it a few years later, but now I’ve heard has since reestablished it. And the university I work at now has only had a career center for the past year (they may have had one in the past but if so had probably closed it as a cost-saving measure). So it’s possible that these students truly don’t have a place on campus that they can go to for career advice. It’s also possible that they’re getting bad advice from professors, peers, and relatives.

    2. Lucille B.*

      I went through over 500 resumes looking for an entry-level office assistant last month, and it just about drove me mad. I have to post again for a temporary billing clerk now and I am terrified of the hot garbage I will get. It’s so clear to me that people are just mass-submitting terrible resumes to every job posting, hoping someone will bite at some point. Who is biting?! Don’t they realize that they are screwing the rest of us over?!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Look at as they’re making it easier for you to be noticed if you have a good resume and cover letter. (It’s one reason why I’m frustrated when people are skeptical that good cover letters really matter. If they could see how easily it would make them stand out from most other applicants, they would get it.)

        1. Jadelyn*

          I’m helping a manager hire for a trio of high-level specialist positions as we’re working on establishing a new team in our lending group, and when we reviewed the first batch of resumes he asked why so many were lacking cover letters. All I could do was kinda shrug and say “We request them in our instructions for applying, but people often ignore that. Just take it as, the lack of cover letter says something about the candidate, just as a good cover letter would say something about them.” I really don’t get why people seem to be moving away from cover letters – why would you waste an opportunity to contextualize your resume and humanize yourself by speaking directly to the hiring manager??

          1. JamieS*

            I’ll answer that. No job I apply for is writing intensive, you already know I’m human, nothing in my resume that needs context won’t inevitably be brought up in the interview and I don’t like repeating myself, and cover letters provide zero actual evidence someone is passionate (which I’ve gathered managers care about) or competent. It also gives an unfair advantage to people provided with a better education even when the job doesn’t require such a level of education. However that’s a topic for another day and not relevant to my personal vitriol towards them.

            All that being said it’s ridiculous cover letters aren’t provided when specifically asked for. How can someone expect to be hired if they can’t even apply correctly?! Heck I truly despise them but I’d still write them because I know it’s currently part of job searching. I don’t like it but I acknowledge it.

        2. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

          Our system doesn’t take cover letters, so we just get resumes. However, I strongly expect that the correlation between bad resume and bad cover letter is strong.

          1. Gaia*

            I once got a “cover letter” that was this, literally, word for word

            [Job Title @ Company]

            Hi

            You should hire me. I would like this job.

            Thx

            [Candidate Name]

        3. Gaia*

          One time, I was hiring for a sales support position. I got a cover letter that was completely and totally for a software design engineer. At first I thought “oh no, this person sent me the wrong cover letter! Gosh, I bet if they noticed they are frustrated!”

          And then I read the last line, which said: “I know this is for a software design engineer, but it is my cover letter so I figured I’d send it.”

          Sigh.

      3. nep*

        This makes me crazy to hear — given how much time and attention I spend with each resume and cover letter. Not that I’m complaining about that time; I wouldn’t have it any other way. What I put out there has to be as good as I can make it. But to hear that such crap is coming in…I wonder when I’ll finally get a bite. (Apparently what I’m sending still needs a lot of work. Back at it…)

        1. Floundering Mander*

          It’s rather disheartening, isn’t it? I am applying for lower level jobs sometimes, as I’d be happy to be an admin assistant if it meant not being unemployed, and I always spend at least a day tailoring my cover letter and CV to the job. Not a single bite.

          Makes me think I must be utterly delusional and my materials are garbage.

    3. That other anon*

      I had one with a cover letter this week that included this gem “I’m not really interested in this position, I just want to get my foot in the door.” I can’t even understand the thought process that went into that.

      4. Jadelyn*

        I literally gasped and put my hand over my mouth. That’s right up there for “why would you say that??” with the diatribe I got from a woman applying for a position that requires Spanish/English bilingual fluency (due to the demographics of our clients and this being a direct client-facing role), demanding to know how we dared call ourselves an equal opportunity employer when we will only hire someone who speaks Spanish, and clearly we mean we only hire Latinos, and she speaks Spanish because she learned it in high school but that probably won’t be good enough for us. I was like “…you know, if you’d just said you speak Spanish, I wouldn’t have cared where you learned it?” But I couldn’t fathom what would make her think that was a good way to get consideration for her application.

    5. JustaCPA*

      OMG the DISASTERS! We are STILL looking for an admin for my company – a part time to full time position with AMAZING benefits, decent salary etc. Ideal for someone just out of a college or a mom reentering the workforce. We’ve been looking for THREE months and NOTHING. The quality of candidates is… dare I say it? deplorable.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        I blame it on indeed, monster, etc. It’s so easy for people to click and send with no effort that they don’t even bother to read the job posting. Like AAM said above, it makes it so easy to quickly weed out the junk. It’s just that…it’s all junk and nothing good to notice!

      2. Koko*

        I don’t have experience with this, but I’m wondering about the PT-to-FT aspect and if that’s putting people off.

        I would think most people are either looking for full-time work or not. If they want FT work, they probably need FT pay so they aren’t eager to take a job that starts off PT if they can get one that is FT (with FT salary) right from the start.

        OTOH, if they can get by on PT salary, they may be ruling out any job that is heading towards FT because they don’t want to work many hours.

        PT-to-FT seems like the kind of job someone who wants FT work would take in a very bad job market like we had 5-10 years ago where they aren’t likely to be able to find a FT job right away, so earning PT salary is better than earning nothing. The job market has improved quite a bit and people may just be passing on this idea to go straight for FT work.

        Again, I’ve not really hired for or even worked for a company that did a PT-to-FT hire so maybe there are other reasons besides a crummy job market that make people apply for those jobs, but if you’re having trouble finding candidates, that might be one thing to look at – if you list it as PT only or FT from the beginning, maybe you’d get more bites.

        1. JN*

          If the goal is to have it end up as a full-time position, is there a way that it can just be advertised as that? I’m not sure what the rationale or necessity of having it start out as a part-time position is. It also might make a difference to applicants how long the job would stay at part-time before making that shift (is that included in the job listing?) or if benefits will be included from the start or not.

          I’ve been job hunting for months now (I still like my job/coworkers/boss/area/etc–just need a higher salary). If a job listing is part-time, I back out of it. I’m a single person, so I’m my only financial support, and if I’m struggling on my current full-time salary, there’s no way I’d manage on part-time wages. Plus, part-time is usually/always without benefits, and I have to have healthcare.

        2. JamieS*

          My mind must started the weekend early. I read PT to FT to mean JustaCPA’s company is willing to hire either PT or FT. As in the hours available range from PT to FT.

    6. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Is there some reason you can’t email them with resume suggestions? I mean besides it not really being your burden to shoulder. But if there are some that seem like they have potential, you’d be doing them a favor if you gave them feedback along with the rejection.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Because there are literally dozens if not hundreds for every well-formatted resume from a somewhat-qualified candidate.

      2. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        Honestly, I’d feel like a jerk e-mailing, “Hey, we are not even considering you for this job, but you might want to Google “Ask a Manager” for resume tips” and I am trying to shoehorn the whole hiring thing around an already full plate. The last thing I need is 20+ people e-mailing me back about their resumes or why we should reconsider them.

      3. nep*

        Nope. That would be waaaaay above and beyond; there is no way I would say a person reading this stuff should take *yet* more time to send feedback or advice. Of course, if the person sees something particular and s/he really wants to give that feedback, sure. But not even a hint of obligation. IMHO.

    7. voluptuousfire*

      I see a lot of cover letters in my job and 99% of them do not mention why they want to work for the company. Two sentences on why you either want the role or why our company puts you head and shoulders above many candidates.

      Even if the cover letter is a cookie cutter one, we still place more weight on your resume but a good cover letter is always a really great plus.

      1. nep*

        UGH. This must not be the case for the jobs I’m applying for; they must be getting some pretty decent resumes and cover letters. Mine don’t suck that bad.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes, the other stuff all seems ridiculous but what’s wrong with something formulated as “I increased llama satisfaction by these three metrics” vs “increased llama satisfaction by three metrics”?

      2. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        Totally not done in our field, ever, in any formal writing. Everything is collaborative so using first person just sounds weird. For example, “I” didn’t design the Llama Pox Surveillance System since that is not something one person could do, but “Led the design and development of the Llama Pox Surveillance System” would work.

    9. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      BWAHAHAHAHA this made me laugh so hard. Yes. We see resumes that make our heads spin. One day, I sent all of them to the hiring manager without looking at them (just once!) and she called me ten minutes later and asked why I sent on a physician for a technician-level position. OMG.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        I think I am going to take our HR out for coffee/lunch/drinks/ice cream once this is over. This is the first time I have been hiring for a position that didn’t require (but does prefer) a specialized graduate degree, so the volume of resumes is up and the quality is down. I owe her one for getting through the 286 resumes I did not see

    10. Can't Sit Still*

      Have you gotten a unicorn yet? I mean, an actual unicorn. On the resume. With or without rainbows. On the one hand, resume paper isn’t a thing anymore. (I’m actually kind of sad that insane resume paper no longer exists. It made sorting resumes so much faster.) On the other hand, the existence of PDFs means that someone, somewhere, is probably still sending out rainbow unicorn resumes.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        Not yet, but then again this is just the first round being sent to us by HR, so there is still time!

      2. NoCalHr*

        Got two – 2! – emailed resumes this last week with unicorn watermarks – in pdf documents. One position is a regulatory compliance specialist (transit compliance like DoT, fuel tank, hazmat), and the other for a senior administrative assistant supporting the CEO and Board of Directors. Shades of blue and ivory (blue outline) for the first, pink and gold for the second, and in both cases no more than 1 of the 5 required minimum KSAs.

        Was so grateful they came in on Friday; the entire department needed that laugh!

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          Yes! Unicorns still exist! This makes me so happy. I do wonder why it’s always unicorns, and never griffons or dragons or kittens.

    11. Margali*

      Oh, I feel you! Someone yesterday had an email name of messiahdavid. Guess he thinks well of himself! For a position where the posting states that a cover letter is *required,* someone uploaded this, “Will send cover later later.” And for the love of all that is holy, people, have someone else read over your resume before you submit it! I think I’ve received three so far from people who are eager to work in a “fast-paste” environment. (No, I do not hire for the Super-Glue company.)

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        I love that typo.

        I am very good at fast-paste. Watch this glue stick fly!

        Alt, I’m very good with MS shortcuts–can Ctrl-V 70 times in 1 min. :D

        1. Mananana*

          The last batch I reviewed included a cover letter extolling why the applicant wanted to work with Teapots, Ltd. It was a lovely letter; too bad we’re Llamas, Llamas, LLamas, Inc, not Teapots, Ltd.

          1. So Very Anonymous*

            I had one of those that opened with “I was excited to see the position of X open up at Chocolate Teapots University” and I thought “So were we! But what does that have to do with our opening here at Vanilla Coffeepots College?”

            Aaaaaaaand then I made almost the same mistake in a cover letter later (although at least it was at the end of the letter?). I was really surprised when they called me for an interview since I figured they’d all had a good laugh. Karma, you know.

    12. DaniCalifornia*

      I feel your pain. Hiring for another admin/front desk and out of 250 resumes about 15 were decent. I am the lucky person to go through all of them from the beginning. Awful formatting, huge spelling mistakes, long lists, 4 pages, it goes on and on. I too wish I could create a form email that says ‘Please visit this site’ to help some of these people.

    13. Chaordic One*

      I would overlook the use of the first person in resumes. While I’m not crazy about it myself, (cough, cough) there’s this other popular employment advice columnist who advocates it.

  15. Monsters of Men*

    Work bag suggestions, please! I am soon to start my job as a school speech therapist so I will be taking files, cards, and tools between five schools. I need something sturdy with long handles – a tote or satchel.

    I tried looking on Reddit and the recommendations were veering into the over $500 territory, which is ridiculous.

    Also – I’m nixing a backpack because of the crushing of stuff which occurs within them.

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I got a used Targus laptop bag with telescoping handle and built in wheels for pulling along. It’s huge and easily got me thru my last year of college with textbooks, laptop and all the other gear students lug around. Even middle aged ones like me. Had a Swiss Army bag before that. Nice, solidly built but got heavy on the shoulder by the end of day. Oh, both bags were nylon. Leather weighs a ton.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      I’d go for a messenger bag (w/ back up handles if you don’t want to wear it over the shoulder). The heavier canvas ones can run under $30 and still look professional. As to avoiding papers getting crumbled and such, I’d suggest containers for the paperwork – either 3 ring binders or folders, and boxes for index cards. If you want to be professional looking, you can get leatherbound folders; if you want sturdiness and waterproof storage, thin tupperware containers work well.

    4. Liz2*

      Why not just straight luggage then? There’s nice small ones which can fit laptops and under the airplane seats.

      2. Monsters of Men*

        Huh. I never even considered that. I think it’s because at two schools I have literal closets to host my students, so I’m worrying about the size, but maybe a smaller one would work!

        1. Floundering Mander*

          I see plenty of people in London wheeling tiny little suitcases around during rush hour. I presume they are basically briefcases on wheels.

    5. Celeste*

      LL Bean makes the sturdiest canvas totes, and they have long handles. You can get a zip top, too.

      But if you’re carrying files and tools, can I suggest a rolling file box with a retractable handle and a lid? I got one from Staples for $20 when I was volunteering with Scouts. I kept office tools inside in a plastic box.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I have a very, very similar one hanging in front of me right now! I like it a lot, but I’d like it more if it had a top zip instead of a flap. (I love the look of the flap, but it’s less convenient to use.)

      2. babblemouth*

        Seconding Fossil – I got one as a present five years ago, and I am quite certain it will last me forever.

        Fossil makes crap watches, but very very good bags.

    7. Temperance*

      What about a rolling litigation bag? I have one from Targus that was around $60 or so. They’re really sturdy and I find them easier to organize than a tote, since they’re more like a box on wheels.

    9. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I have the answer. For real. It’s a little expensive but I promise you it is the solution: the Lo&Son OMG. Link in another comment.

    10. LAI*

      I recently had to get a backpack because I was experiencing back issues from carrying weight unevenly distributed on one shoulder. I found a great one from Swiss Gear which unzips all the way around like a suitcase, and has several separate sections inside. Things still get squished a little but I can separate them into compartments and put the squishable stuff on the bottom.

      1. IvyGirl*

        I love love love my Skip Hop bag. It’s not too practical for a diaper bag, but it’s great for commuting.

        Only issue – I find that the strap pills my shirts as I wear it crossbody.

    12. bean*

      I have the Commute bag from Timbuk2 and I love it. Super sturdy, and it’s nylon so it’s lightweight. Leather is way too heavy for me. The small size (the one I have) holds a small laptop and standard-size files. May want to go bigger if you need to transport more files. Link: http://www.timbuk2.com/commute-messenger-bag/208.html?dwvar_208_color=4730&dwvar_208_size=8

      If you’re going to be transporting a bunch of tools/toys/games in addition to files, though, you might want to look at a rolling file box – you’ll probably want to get one with a lid: https://www.amazon.com/Office-Depot-Mobile-Folding-16in-H/dp/B00DB8O26Q/ref=sr_1_3?rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1506099000&sr=8-3&keywords=rolling+file+box&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011

      1. Heartlover1717*

        This is what I was going to suggest. Folds FLAT when you’re not using and the lid attaches. Mine has been a workhorse!

    13. Samata*

      My favorite work bag I bought 8 years ago and love it. It’s a Kate Spade messenger-style diaper bag. It’s treated (or was at one point) with stain resister, the inside is easy to wipe out if I have a spill, there are multiple compartments and my tiny umbrella fits where the baby’s mat is supposed to go.

      It has held up so well. I did just have a minor rip near the handles, but it was just the fabric and I am pretty sure it’s because I had about 15 pounds of books in in last week. I stitched it quickly and all is fine again.

      I don’t think they have it on their website anymore but I have seen them on resale sites all the time!

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I had a Swiss Army rolling briefcase bag for a while at Exjob. Nice square bag, not too big, with plenty of room for files. I bought it from Staples–it wasn’t too expensive.

    15. Drew*

      I’m a big fan of Venque bags – I backed their very first Kickstarter for a “briefpack” and it is still holding up great after several years of nearly daily use. They have a much broader selection now than the last time I looked, including messenger bags and briefcases that are super sturdy, hold way more than you would expect for their size, and are what I would consider very reasonably priced. I’ll link to the messenger bags below.

      (No connection other than being a very satisfied customer!)

    16. School Psych*

      I work as a school-based clinician and went to 4 schools, the 1st job I had. I essentially had an office in my trunk with a plastic bin to hold my test kits and therapy materials and a “file cabinet” to hold the kids folders. I gave each of my schools a different color folder. I also had a rolling crate that I put the things I would need for the school I was going to that day. My office in all my buildings was whichever room happened to be open when I needed to work with kids, so this was necessary. Thankfully I’m in a district now, where I’m only assigned to 2 schools and I have offices at both where I can leave my things. The following links worked really well for transporting things to schools in my previous job though. I also really like the lands end backpacks and totes. They’re not too expensive and sturdy enough so your stuff doesn’t get crushed.
      https://www.staples.com/Staples-Expanding-Folding-Crate-on-Wheels/product_440122
      https://www.staples.com/Staples-Portable-File-Box-with-Organizer-Top-Black-110970/product_757448
      https://www.staples.com/Staples-Bella-5-5-Quart-Plastic-Locking-Lid-Container-12-Case/product_2070870

      1. Anonish*

        Itinerant specialist in schools as well…Homegoods had a rolling collapsible crate with a telescoping bangle for under $30 last weekend! I currently use a backpack but I might go back and get the rolly crate.
        I need to start a meme with a photo of a backpack and a travel mug that says “If your office looks like this, you might be an ELL, TAG, SLP…”

    17. Lady Jaina*

      Reisenthel Carry Cruiser. I use it to carry medical coding books to work, and I use it at the grocery.

  16. rageismycaffeine*

    Yall I am HOPPING MAD. HR has implemented some new policies that have had them all up in my business with hiring for a vacancy under me right now, which already has me fed up, but today some BS has happened that takes the cake.

    In my field it’s common to ask people who have made it to the interview stage to prepare a screening exercise that will be discussed during the interview – let’s call it teapot research. I had to do this when I was hired – both my first job in the field and for my current job – and everyone I’ve hired has had to go through it. In the couple of years since I last hired someone, HR has decided they need to approve every part of the process. No problem, I send them the outline for the training exercise for their approval.

    The HR person had some questions and concerns about the screening exercise. But rather than contact me about them, she emailed her boss – the VP of HR – and CC’d my boss (also a VP). And did not include me. At all. She had one concern about the exercise that is valid and I would have been happy to discuss, but another issue she had she investigated by “googling how to do teapot research” and deciding that the process I was outlining was inappropriate. If she had bothered to ask the person who does teapot research for a living, I could have explained the entire thing to her really easily, but instead she pulled rank, crying to her boss and my boss, and making me look like I did something bad. The first I heard about it was when my boss forwarded me her email saying we’d talk about it sometime today, which is a conversation I’m still waiting for.

    I’m so pissed about this I’m still mad about it three hours after reading my boss’s email. I’m giving serious thought to contacting the HR person and telling her that I could have answered her questions and I feel that she undermined me by going directly to her boss and my boss. Is this a terrible idea? Any other thoughts on my situation?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s a bad idea, because this is still in the middle of being worked out by your boss. Talk to your boss first, see how that goes, and if it feels appropriate at that point, tell your boss that you’re frustrated by how this was handled and would like to talk to the HR person about it.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Oh wow, hi Alison! I’m honored to have an answer from you. :)

        I know you’re right. I’m just boiling with irritation and planning to do something about it is the only thing making me feel better, lol. Obviously if it does come to talking to HR about the way this was handled I will be very sane and diplomatic.

      2. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

        If it makes you feel any better, I work in HR, and people have done this to me more than once. It’s infuriating. Alison’s advise was spot on.

    2. Chupalupe*

      Talk to your boss about it first. I’ve had occasions like this where other departments tried to pull rank on me, and my director took the other director to task for it. It’s much more impactful being scolded by a boss than a peer (since clearly she thinks you can’t do your job already!).

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Yeah that’s a really good point, although my boss is super non-confrontational and puts such a weight on “positivity” as to become completely unrealistic – so I’m not really optimistic that he’s going to be willing to push back to HR on this. But you’re right, I need to wait to talk to him first.

    3. Antilles*

      Don’t talk to the HR person. Prep for your meeting with the boss by getting together evidence and information to back up your position and justify why your suggestions are appropriate and reasonable.
      If your boss knows anything whatsoever about Teapot Research, he probably already realizes that she’s off-base. Even if he doesn’t know Teapot Research, as long as you can calmly and professionally explain the reasons about why you chose the method you did and why her concerns are not applicable, then you actually come out of this a winner: (a) you show you know your stuff and (b) it reduces the chance of future interference because her rank-pulling backfires.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Talking to an HR person who has already proven to be grossly unprofessional has no conceivable upside. Let your boss handle it.

    5. KR*

      I’m wondering when you talk to your boss too, if you could discuss the issue with her and tell her you’ll forward an answer to the HR persons question, CC all the higher-ups that she CC’d, and phrase the answer like, “Good morning Helga, This is the first I am hearing of your concern about teapot research. This is a valid concern and a question I am able to answer. Here is the answer. Don’t hesitate to contact me with further questions. Thank you, Rageismycaffeine. ” If your boss is supportive, it kind of subtly highlights the fact that it was a question you could answer all along. I think if the answer comes from your boss and the higher-ups, it will reinforce that she had to go to them to get a response. Maybe you could replace “this is the first I’m hearing about this” with “I’m glad Boss forwarded this to me.”

    6. KarenT*

      I agree with those saying don’t do it, but if you decide you must do not do it via email. She will forward that to both your bosses as well.

  17. What Would You Do?*

    I’m a recent grad who would like to leave the job I’ve been in for 1.5 years. For a variety of reasons, the job is a tremendously bad fit for me, but I took it because I was familiar with the company and thought it would lead to a career after I felt like I had no direction when I decided not to pursue law school. (Yes, I am one of those people who had their life planned out in college and completely changed their mind after graduating). I’ve been looking for communications positions for several months but have been had absolutely no luck. I was a comm-related major, but since I spent a lot of college internships focusing on law-related positions, my only communications internship experiences focused mainly on writing and event planning, and not the marketing that companies seem to want. Anyway, I am a finalist for a position that is not communications (though it has some communications duties). It would be a mainly admin position, but I feel it would give me a lot of new skills and experiences I don’t and couldn’t get in my current job. I guess I feel guilty because I had a glowing performance review, my boss loves me, and we’re 8 weeks out for our big event which I have a huge role in planning, so the timing is not ideal. On the other hand, in addition to the new duties, the new job would give me a drastically shorter commute (45-60 min. to less than 10), as well as an in with the large public research University that I really want to work for. I guess I’m just feeling guilty and anxious that this position isn’t exactly what I imagined, but I’m not sure I’ll be able to find anything better at this point. So, what would you do?

    1. Manders*

      I would take the new job. I was in a similar position to you when I first got out of school, and I stayed in a job that was going nowhere for way too long. Don’t make my mistake, keep moving in the direction you want to go in.

      Also, it sounds like you’re feeling anxious about this job not ticking all the right boxes, but in my experience each move between jobs gets me a little closer to my ideal job. Staying in a job that’s not right for you just delays moving on to the next step.

    2. Snark*

      “I guess I’m just feeling guilty and anxious that this position isn’t exactly what I imagined, but I’m not sure I’ll be able to find anything better at this point.”

      I realize that your guilt and anxiety are real and genuine, but….why? Sometimes jobs just….don’t work out. I’ve held three positions that I realized a year or two in were just bad fits for me. Deal-breakers are not all evident during the hiring process; some manifest over time, or arise as a result of personnel and policy changes. It’s just how the cookie crumbles sometimes, and you’ve been there for a good long time, will leave with a good recommendation, and have another 18 months of work experience. That’s a success by my book, even if it wasn’t the dream, ideal job. Take the new position, if you’re offered it, with head high.

    3. Liz2*

      Only if the pay were at least a 10% increase and the commute the same or better.

      Admin isn’t where you want to do to start- this is your second job out, not your first. There IS better and you are worth taking the time. You know your position is secure as it can be. Keep your ears open and in the new year now that you will have a solid 2 year tenure you can really search and sort for the perfect spot.

      1. Morning Glory*

        Yeah, as an admin, I kind of agree with this – admin jobs tend to over-promise opportunities for higher-level work and then under-deliver; by the time you figure it out, you’ve got the scarlet letter on your resume and it’s hard to break out from there.

        If the job truly does sound great and you are learning toward taking it, then I would at the very least do some research. Look up people on LinkedIn who held the same job title at that company and find out what they are doing, now. That’s a good indicator what kind of jobs this one will prepare you for. Remember, if you take this job and don’t end up liking it, it’s right after you’ve had an 18 month stint on your resume. That will make it harder to find the right job than if you stay where you are for now and keep searching for a really good fit.

    4. Shiara*

      An in with a large public research university is definitely a plus, and if this new job gives you that, and a chance to explore new skills and experiences, it sounds like it’s a solid next move away from a position that you know is a bad fit.

      You’re only a year and a half out of school, after throwing a life plan out the window. It’s completely normal to not be sure where you want to end up or how to get there or to need to take things that aren’t exactly what you imagined. This job isn’t your ideal, but it doesn’t need to be. What you’re looking for is a solid next step, that will give you skills, experiences and connections to help you refine your understanding of your ideal, and help you take a step after this that will bring you closer to that ideal.

      That said, depending on just how long you’ve been looking, it may be too early to say that you can’t get anything in communications. And it is worth thinking about what kind of admin position this is and whether going into admin is a move you want to make (although if this is an administrative position at a public research University, that’s quite different from a company admin)

    5. Airedale*

      As a Comm grad 4 years out, now working as a university admin, I’ve been there, and I personally would take the new job. (To be transparent, I didn’t end up transitioning back to the Comm side of things like I’d planned. I found I personally like working for a university, and having my own writing projects on the side.)

      I understand those telling you to hold out for a great fit in communications, but it’s also true that entry-level communications jobs are incredibly competitive even if you already have a stellar portfolio and a few relevant internships. Also, your offer comes from a company you “really want to work for” with a much easier commute. You might considerbuilding your portfolio by freelancing on the side, like with a nonprofit who could use marketing volunteers, or unpaid marketing help for local businesses. Then you’d have marketing clips to show and testimonials of your work. Universities also have many marketing-related positions that you could eventually transition into, and you would have an edge as an employee.

      Of course, this is a very personal decision, but that’s my opinion. Ultimately, I would trust the advice of those in your dream job, whichever role or niche that might be. Good luck!

    6. neverjaunty*

      Give yourself a pat on the back for knowing that law school wasn’t a good choice for you and deciding not to go after all, instead of doing it anyway. You made a smart decision.

    7. Beckie*

      Getting a foot in the door of a large public research university is huge — like all companies, they often hire from within. Plus, most universities have multiple communications departments/groups — e.g. one large office for the whole campus, but also people handing communications in the schools of law, engineering, etc.

      Even if this admin position isn’t in communications, you could have the potential to work your way into a role with more communications duties, whether because you’re handling communications for the group that you’re an admin for, or because you move from this to an admin job within a group/dept focused on communications.

  18. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I have a coworker who reads really conservative websites all day. She has some productivity problems, too, so I wish someone would tell her to get off Matt Walsh and the Blaze and Breitbart and get to work. But, since work is really boring, and we need Internet for work, anything online that’s not social media or games is OK if you’re keeping up.

    Plus, it makes me nervous, since I’m always out at work.

    1. Liane*

      It doesn’t sound like your co-irker is “keeping up,” from what you wrote about her productivity, so there’s an opening to bring it up to the boss, maybe without being more specific about her time-wasters of choice. Although, I would still expect her to complain that “No one would say a word if I was on RandomLiberalSite dot com all the time!”

      1. Observer*

        Of course she would, if she has any sense. It’s the truth. Which is a reason to not say anything unless CW actually tries to engage OCAQ in conversation about it or expresses hateful views.

    2. Safetykats*

      Is she just quietly reading these websites, or is she talking to you and others about what she reads? If there isn’t a clear company policy prohibiting her internet usage, I don’t think there’s anything you can do about that. But if she’s trying to engage you in conversations about the things she is reading, and especially if those conversations express prejudice or even hatred in ways that make you uncomfortable, you should clearly tell her you’re offended. If it continues, you should talk to your manager and HR – because if it continues it is potentially harassment and creating a hostile workplace.

      However – if she’s just reading hateful stuff and not trying to disseminate hateful messages, I don’t think there is anything you can do – again, unless she’s reading things (like porn) that company policies clearly prohibit.

      I’m sorry you work with someone like this. I actually work with a conspiracy theorist, and I used to work with a Dave Ramsey acolyte, but at least they are both nice people with good hearts.

    3. Iris Eyes*

      It sounds like social media and games would be preferable.

      Other than bringing up productivity issues specifically apart from what is causing them, you might bring up occasions when an alternative point of view helped you see something in a different light and how valuable that article or whatever was. Maybe something you read about how the internet conforms itself to you, and tends to only show you things that you already agree with, in the hope that it might make her curious and try to broaden her intellectual diet. Granted that will only appeal to a certain percentage of people, most people are more than happy to stay in their own bubble.

      As for her interactions with you, people are often against something on a conceptual basis but don’t fully apply that to people they actually know. For example I’ve seen people who were against anyone darker than pale, but were perfectly ok with them marrying into the family. The logic seems to be along the lines of “Oh but your not one of those, your ____.” Unfortunately we are often able to make exceptions to stereotypes for those we know without adjusting the underlying assumptions for the rest of the group. A high ranking member of the KKK who had a good friend who is black comes to mind. So that being said, while you should of course be wary of her treating you differently, don’t assume that she will, or that it is always tied to that aspect of yourself. For example if she perceives you as “tattling” on her, she would likely be responding to that, not necessarily because you are queer.

      1. Anion*

        Alternative points of view, like the ones on those sites? Has the OP read them in order to “broaden her intellectual diet?” Or is it only readers of conservative sites that need to do that?

        I don’t mean to sound rude or accusatory, it just seems ironic to me, the thought of lecturing someone about broadening their intellectual horizons and reading different viewpoints because they’re reading viewpoints that are never seen or discussed in anything but the most disparaging, insulting terms in mainstream media and most other websites. (Like, say, assuming she’s accepting of the OP because she’s a hypocrite, rather than assuming she’s accepting of the OP because she’s a conservative–like many conservatives–with no problem with gay people.)

      1. Squeeble*

        Sure, but those sites are known for being extremist, and it’s understandable that a queer coworker would be pretty uncomfortable with that.

        1. Anion*

          Yes, but has the coworker even indicated with a look that she has a problem with people being gay?

          Conservative does not = homophobe (and frankly, people are allowed to privately have issues with people being gay, as long as they don’t actively discriminate). At all. And sometimes people who lean conservative have little choice but to read conservative sites if they want to see anything that even remotely reflects their views or speaks to and about them as normal people and not walking incarnations of everything evil and wrong in the world, even if they disagree with some or most of what they read. I’m pretty conservative, and have always supported gay people and gay marriage; I have more than a few gay friends, quite a few of whom are also conservative. I don’t read Breitbart, but I do read other conservative sites. I don’t always agree with the articles in them or all of the comments to them, but you’d be surprised how many commenters and readers of those sites are pro-gay-rights (and how few of the articles on those sites actually tend to have anything to do with gay people at all; it’s not a major issue for most readers, frankly).

  19. MechanicalPencil*

    I’ve been experiencing lower back pain caused by essentially poor posture. I already have a lumbar pillow to try to help out the meh chair, but I’m considering getting an ergonomic chair for when I work from home. Does anyone have experience with either one of those yoga balls or the kneeling desk chairs? I’m looking for something that will force me to not slouch.

    1. SQL Coder Cat*

      I have a kneeling desk chair at home. I find it uncomfortable to use for long periods of time due to the way it puts pressure on my knees, so I swap it out with a desk chair. It is great for posture though!

      Good luck finding a solution that works for you. Lower back pain is the worst. :(

    2. fposte*

      I really liked kneeling chairs (ironically, I can’t use them now *because* I can’t tolerate a lumbar curve). With those, you need to get used to them by gradually increasing your time, figure out if your knees will tolerate the pressure, and find a chair that fits you. I was lucky in that a fairly cheap one fit me very well–I’m about 5’2″ and saw complaints it was too short for people and knew it was the one :-).

    3. Delyssia*

      I used to use a yoga ball chair, but I never bothered to move it to the new office when my office moved a couple of years ago. I liked it, but absolutely, 100% you can slouch on a yoga ball. At first, I found that I sat with better posture, but it didn’t take long before I figured out all sorts of ways to slouch, slump, and otherwise curl my spine.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I really liked the kneeling chair I had at my home desk. I haven’t used one myself, but I’ve seen these wheeled circular frames you can get for a yoga ball, so it rolls around more like a desk chair. Makes it easier to pull up to and push out from your desk!

    5. LAI*

      This may be obvious but through an ergonomic review in my office, I found out that I was keeping my computer monitor too far away. It was causing me to lean forward to see it better, which caused me to slouch. I moved it closer (it’s now basically right on the edge of my desk) and it’s helped a lot. I do have to push it back occasionally to make room for papers I’m looking at, so another tip they gave me is to put tape on the desk where the monitor is supposed to go, as a reminder to move it back.

    6. zora*

      I do really like the yoga ball chair, i used to have one and I miss it. But the one thing that has really stopped my slouching is a good foot rest. It totally makes me sit up straight back into my chair.

      And check on your monitor and keyboard placement, too, that has also caused me problems in the past.

    7. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Also–have you considered taking yoga? I found that my posture improved naturally while taking it–the chairs I sat in just gave me more awareness that I wasn’t slouching/leaning/etc.

    8. JulieBulie*

      I like kneeling desk chairs in principle, but many of them (especially the less expensive ones) are very limited in how much you can adjust them. You could either end up with your eyes at the wrong height, or have too tight a bend at the knees, too much distance between your butt and your knees to sit comfortably, etc. It’s too bad, because it’s a really great concept.

      But who’s to say that you aren’t just the right size and shape for one of these chairs? All I can say is that I’ve had a good one, an okay one, and a really crappy one.

      In the lower price range, you also may see weird things like no wheels (most people want wheels) or they cheap out on the padding for the knees. You need good padding for the knees. The pressure on your knees shouldn’t be too bad if your chair is sized and adjusted properly, but even then you don’t want to feel like you’re kneeling on an iron plate.

      Most of all, I very strongly recommend that you at least try the chair out before you buy it, and see if you can adjust it, and make sure there is a good return policy.

    10. sb*

      I’ve been using a kneeling chair for the past 5+ years and it’s worked well for me. Though for me it was to counteract shoulder/neck pain, not lower back.

  20. Beatrice*

    Do you have any formal or informal mentoring and development tools for women where you work (or for the general population, but that tend to be equally advantageous to men and women?) What works about them and what doesn’t?

    1. Chupalupe*

      I have a couple of ladies at my organization that love Brene Brown’s courses.

      I think it would be great to set up a matching system between senior leaders and lower level folks. Something like getting matched with someone new in the organization to get to know each other for just a 30 minute coffee session?

      1. Beatrice*

        Oh thanks! We talked about a couple of good authors/books in our discussion, but your comment made me realize that maybe collecting some good articles and a book list would be a good place to start!

        We talked about a mentoring program, but I think the direction we’re going to go is to let those relationships develop more organically, instead of trying to formally match people up. But instead of letting them develop purely by chance, I think we’ll have key senior people in each area who actively look for opportunities to develop and encourage women in their fields, just without any formal structure to it.

        1. Iris Eyes*

          TBH in the majority of cases people don’t search out mentoring relationships, its even more difficult than developing a dating relationship. Instead of actively matching people up you could encourage them to do so, something like speed dating came to mind. That way both people know they are interested in a mentor/mentee relationship and can get a feel for each other but no pressure to persue it if they don’t feel like they made a good match.

    2. Beatrice*

      I didn’t have time to type a longer post earlier! :)

      I was invited to a discussion group at my workplace, on launching a development, networking, and advocacy group for women there. Our entry level hiring and early career development programs tend to be a pretty even mix of genders, but women get scarcer as you go up the food chain, especially in fields like engineering and operations. We’re still figuring out how we want to tackle that and where we want to start. Our finance team already has a really informal mentoring/support system in place, that we want to look at mirroring elsewhere. And there are some boys’ club type systems (a golf league and a racquetball league) that are technically open to women, but women are poorly represented, because if it’s offered to them at all, it’s offered as an opportunity to participate in a sport, not an opportunity to network, and new people don’t realize that the roster is like a who’s who of senior leadership and rising stars. We want to either get into those networks and help encourage new women to see them for what they are and join them too, or (even better) try to develop a clear mid/late career networking system that is more inclusive, like our existing early career programs.

  21. anna green*

    OMG guys. I have started becoming involved in hiring at my company. We have beeen looking for various entry level positions over the past few months. Their resumes are so. bad. It’s like a list of everything Alison says not to do. I just want to send all of them links to this site to help them. AAM has definitely helped me feel sympathy for them instead of annoyance because they must be getting such horrible advice… It doesn’t seem to stop us from interviewing them, many times if they have a degree in our field, we’ll usually bring them in anyway. But still, so. so. bad. I got one today that was 3 pages with everything she did in college. I’ve gotten a bunch that have core competencies listed, etc. A bunch of them have listed on top right under their name “authorized to work in the US for any employer”. (is that a thing now?) Poor kids.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      I work in a STEM field and get a ton of resumes from non-US citizens. Work authorization is one of the first things people ask and virtually every applicant tracking software package includes that question. So I can understand why people, especially people with degrees from foreign universities, include that front-and-center.

      1. anna green*

        Oh I definitely understand that, but these are often people who have a Pennsylvania address and a Pennsylvania college and the one today had a Pennsylvania high school with no indication that they’ve ever been outside the country, so it’s just confusing. I just assume they’re getting bad advice or using a template that doesn’t apply

        1. Close Bracket*

          Everybody gets asked that question, even when their resume has no indication that they have ever left the country. It makes sense that, since you know you will be asked, to just put it in.

          The only reason more experienced workers don’t include it is that we know that people don’t actually read our resumes. ;-P

    2. LizB*

      Did the “authorized to work in the US” ones come from Indeed, by any chance? I’ve noticed that lots of candidates who apply for my jobs through Indeed will let the site auto-create a resume for them, and they often have that weird language, plus other weird elements and formatting. I’ve just gotten used to it.

      1. anna green*

        Ooooh maybe?? I actually noticed two of them had freakily similar formats, so maybe that’s why!! Thanks!!

    3. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Early in my career I was advised to make a local and international versions of my resume. The international version included something like “travel availability”. I’ve never used it so far.

    4. zora*

      We are hiring for an entry level position now, too, but for a highly specialized field. And my coworkers who are hiring have been showing me some of the worst.

      One was an 8 page resume. For entry level.

      The best/worst is the young woman with a photo on the top of her resume. Wait, it gets better.
      -It’s a selfie.
      -A duckfast selfie.
      -In her car.
      -With major cleavage. A suit jacket with seemingly nothing underneath…. Nothing….. Underneath….

      I feel bad for her, but really, just, wow.

      1. Fake old Converse shoes*

        Makes me remember of a recruiter whose LinkedIn profile photo was a toilet selfie wearing what it looked like a “sexy French girl” costume. I wonder if they’re related.

        1. zora*

          WHA!!!??!?! That is much, much worse……………………………. I am dead.

          ALSO: Edit: that is supposed to say “duckFACE selfie” .. duck FACE. I am way too tired today to type anything.

  22. NGL*

    Q about telling the boss I’m pregnant…

    I’m just shy of 13 weeks pregnant, and it’s already getting tough to hide this! In an ideal world I’d wait at least another two weeks to get the results from my first trimester scan (just had the ultrasound this morning! EXCITING. And terrifying) and tell once I got the best assurance possible at this point that everything is looking good.

    But in addition to having a hard-to-hide bump, in a week and a half I’m expected to be part of the staff at New York Comic Con. I would have to come up with an excuse to not do heavy lifting during booth set up (I work with books…everything is heavy), and make sure that there’s a chair in the booth since standing for 4+ hours on a hot convention floor is miserable in a normal year (our booth setup has changed this year and while in the past there have been chairs, it’s not obvious yet whether they’ll be in the new setup). I’m an otherwise healthy young woman so these would be totally new accommodations.

    I know my boss is going to be cool with the announcement overall, but I’m absolutely terrified of word getting out before I get these test results back…and then have to un-announce. So any advice from others with experience (can you tell this is my first time? lol) would be appreciated!

    1. Chupalupe*

      Not personal experience, but I had a coworker who sprained her back and said she was on painkillers. That meant she couldn’t lift anything and had an excuse not to drink.

    2. Murphy*

      Ask your boss to keep it to themselves. Will they be at NYCC? If so, they can help you out a bit with the chair.

      It’s easy to claim tired, dehydrated, under the weather, etc. in the early stages of pregnancy, at least for a bit. When you keep doing it, people will suspect, but for one day you should be fine.

      1. Ms. Mad Scientist*

        Agree with this. And congratulations!

        I feel you on the early announcements. I didn’t want to tell anybody other than my husband until the 12 week mark because I was convinced I was going to imminently miscarry. I had no history of miscarriage, just anxious and succumbed to the extensive fearmongering about pregnancies of women over age 35. I had to tell our safety officer in order to get an occupational health evaluation, but fortunately was able to continue my duties with only minor modifications.

    3. J*

      I always had to announce early. I suffer from HG and it came on harder and faster with each successive pregnancy. I also have one living child from four pregnancies, so I had to have several “oops” conversations when those didn’t work out.

      Even the first trimester isn’t a guarantee that all will be well; I lost each baby after the first trimester. Heaven forbid the baby has a condition that can’t be diagnosed until later. Or, that you could lose the baby in delivery as two of my friends have. There’s no moment when it’s “safe”.

      Announce when you’re ready. If you need to unannounce, that won’t be the hardest part of it.

      2. Purple snowdrop*

        Yeah I had everything fine at my 12 week scan, baby died a few days later, I didn’t find out until 17 weeks, by which time the whole world knew. It actually made it easier; I didn’t have to deal with knowing that people would be speculating about why I was off- they all knew.

        Good luck NGL.

        And I’m so sorry for your losses J. Going through it once was bad enough for me :(

    4. Celeste*

      I’d just tell. It gives you an iron-clad way of getting your accomodations, which matter. Thirteen weeks is far enough along to faint if you stand too long, and you shouldn’t risk it.

      I know it’s scary to think about having to un-tell, but it’s completely out of your control–a total leap of faith. Take the leap and tell.

    5. anna green*

      I say tell your boss and mention that you are not really announcing it yet, but she needed to know because of the conference etc. That way she’ll hopefully understand not to spread it around yet to anyone who doesn’t need to know. Congratulations! I’m sure everything will be fine. (on another note – if something horrible did happen, you’d probably be better off telling your boss anyway, because this far along you’d likely need time and space to deal with it. But it won’t because I’m sure everything is fine!!)

    6. Friday*

      Congratulations! How I’d approach it is I’d tell your boss now, and ask her to go along with a white lie for the conference that you’re dealing with back pain and painkillers for the situation mean that you also can’t drink and need to retire early in the evening. You can tell everyone else the real good news after your scan results come back.

      My current pregnancy, I told my boss at 13 weeks and coworkers I think ~16 or so weeks because we had a weird first tri scan and I wanted to get more data from the second test before telling. My first pregnancy I told my boss at 8 weeks and my team at 12 weeks because I had a solid first tri scan. Everyone’s different in how they approach telling the news and I think the only real wrong answer would be “don’t tell until the baby’s here.” :) Good luck!

    7. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Congratulations!! I was also “forced” into an early announcement because of similar work conditions. My direct supervisor figured it out when I was only 8 weeks because I puked on him. (To be fair, he saw it coming and thrust a waste bin at me before it landed but he knew instantly what had happened and kept his mouth shut until I was ready to tell everyone.) My grand boss had to be told at 11 weeks because I was put on bed rest for a week with H1N1. I didn’t tell the rest of the office until closer to 15-16 weeks though.

      You may need time to make arrangements for seating at the booth, so I would suggest speaking with the person in charge of that event. If it is your boss, you can have a confidential conversation regarding an unspecified medical issue. Tell her as much or as little as you are comfortable sharing. She doesn’t get to disclose your medical details to others; she can just say there is a medical need for seating for you.

    8. Megan*

      If you really don’t want to announce to your coworkers in general yet, you could almost certainly just tell your boss and ask her to keep it under wraps until you’re ready, but honestly, I’d just tell people. Even though you don’t have all the results back yet, you’ve had the ultrasound and you know the baby’s heart is still beating and s/he is growing and you’re 13 weeks – statistically pretty safe, though of course nothing is ever guaranteed.

      I know everyone’s different on this, but here’s my experience in case it helps: I’ve had two pregnancies now with severe hyperemesis gravidarum (totally incapacitated for months, had to have PICC lines inserted so I could get IV nutrition), so I announced my first at about 7 weeks and my second at 5 weeks. My first pregnancy ended up totally fine, and I’ve got a lovely, healthy 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I lost my second pregnancy at about 21 weeks. Unannouncing the pregnancy was the least of my worries – I just texted my boss and asked him to spread the word, and my coworkers all signed a card and chipped in for one of those edible arrangements. No one has said anything to me about it without me bringing it up first, and it’s been such a relief for me that everyone already knows, and I didn’t have to pretend like everything was okay when I got back to work.

      1. Mamunia*

        I would tell your boss and ask her to keep it to herself for now. I wouldn’t lie about something specific like bad back; your coworkers will figure out you lied to them when you can’t hide your pregnancy any longer. I would be vague and say something like you’re having a “temporary medical thing, but nothing to be concerned about!”

  23. Long time lurker*

    So I got some interviewing advice and I was wondering what y’all’s opinion is on this. When asked for a desired salary, tell them market value. If they ask you what you think your market value is, tell them that they would have a better idea of that. I feel like this is a dangerous way to play it and can make you sound coy. But what do you think?

    1. Lucille B.*

      That sounds awful to me. Just give a number and go from there – what is the point of turning this into a game?

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Because you’re more likely to get less money if you name a number first. A company that pushes the applicant to give the first number is showing what type of company they will be to work for.

        The best way to handle it is do to the research (networking, glassdoor, professional societies) to know what market rate actually is and negotiate from there, rather than outright refusing to name a figure though.

    2. Beatrice*

      What? No! The “you would have a better idea of market rate than I do” response takes away the ground you need to stand on to negotiate upward once they make an offer. Research the market rate and know where the number should be. If you don’t want to be the first person to name a number, counter by asking them what the pay range for the position is.

      1. Long time lurker*

        I didn’t even think of the negotiation issue you and Allison brought up! The person who gave me this advice never negotiates unless he has another offer with a higher salary, so it makes sense this hasn’t come up.

        I was getting alarm bells at this advice (and a lot of other advice he’s given), but he’s very successful. So I thought I’d get another opinion.

        1. neverjaunty*

          The person who gave you this advice is successful DESPITE his bad advice. Imagine how much more successful he’d be if he wasn’t shooting himself in the foot.

          Assuming, of course, he actually follows his own advice. I have heard all kinds of ridiculous gumption-type suggestions from dudes who got all their jobs through networking or who stayed at the same company for 25 years.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You’re basically refusing to answer their question. And you’re setting it up so that you have no ground to stand on when they offer you something you think is too low, because you’ve told them that they know better than you do what market value is.

    4. PB*

      I agree with you. You should do your research in advance, so that you have an idea of what market value is, and go in with a number in mind.

    5. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      Oh no, this sounds like a very bad idea. It’s basically saying straight up, “I don’t know how much I’m worth and you can pick a number”. It also limits your ability to come back if they lowball you and say “Actually, I was thinking more like $Y” because you just told them they have a better idea of market value than you do.

      I guess *best* case use of this tactic would be if you a) already know your market value and b) are happy where you are and not desperate to find something and c) are trying to screen out employers who WILL lowball offers. But… still not great.

      1. Antilles*

        Eh, even in your theoretical *best case*, it’s still bad advice. Good employers won’t lowball you, but they still probably aren’t giving you their absolute best offer. So even though if their offer is completely fair, you still pass up the opportunity to at least try to see if you can get a little more.

  24. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I had a job interview earlier this week and the hiring manager said I could hear back from her as early as the following day (yesterday) about a decision. I missed a call from her yesterday afternoon while I was in a meeting, but she left no voicemail nor did she follow up with an email, and I’ve sat on the missed call for 12+ hours now without replying so I think my best bet is to just wait and hope she tries calling again – but would love to know if I’ve made the wrong decision!

    (As another data point, I had sent a thank you email to another person on the team who I’d met, and that person responded to it this morning, answering a question I had included.)

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      She left no voicemail? That’s…. weird. I hate it when people do that.

      I don’t see anything wrong with calling her back with the perfectly valid explanation that you saw that you missed a call from her; I do that with people all the time, but I will say that I haven’t done it in a job hunting situation, so my advice may not be great in this context.

      1. Gaia*

        I never leave voicemails. Like…ever. Mostly because I hate it when people leave me voicemails. But I do immediately follow up with an email or text to explain my call.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Thanks for the encouragement! I sent an email instead of calling back. My fear is that she meant to call someone else and didn’t realize her error until she got to my voicemail message, so figured email would give her a better out than surprising her with a return call.

  25. Two-body Problem*

    Last week I posted about feeling conflicted about going to an interview for a 2-3 year term job in a location I want to move to. The reason was that I’m not sure moving for a term job is a great idea for my family right now but I’ve already compromised in my career for my spouse and found it hard to find another opportunity in my first choice field. Thank you for your advice and comments.

    I went to the interview, it went so-so, and I came away feeling like the job would be great, but they couldn’t assure me of any path to permanent hire, and I’m getting tired of moving every couple years. The HR person said they would probably let me know by today. I now really hope they reject me because I think if I got an offer and rejected it, there is a really good chance I’d regret it in the future, but if I took it, we’d be taking a huge gamble as a family as far as settling down, and asking my spouse to seriously restrict their own academic job search (they’re currently only applying for a few selected jobs in places we would both want to live, instead of all of them nationwide, but one city is pretty darn restrictive). I’m really, really nervous and I don’t want the decision to be mine. I’ve never felt like I had a starker choice between “career” and “family,” both in terms of my spouse’s job prospects and our joint wish to settle down, and wish the two didn’t seem in conflict. Wish me luck for the rejection I’m hoping for!

    Meanwhile, in about an hour I’m headed out for an informational interview lunch with an alum of my program who’s now on…what would probably be my plan E? I think she’s self-employed, which is not my ideal, but is worth learning about and thinking about as a short- to medium-term option in case Plans A-D don’t work out.

    1. fposte*

      May the clouds rain upon your job prospect. (And I know what you mean about just wanting the universe to deal with the choices for you sometimes.)

      1. Two-Body Problem*

        Thank you. That’s it exactly.

        Friday went by with no word, which is probably standard hiring estimates being too optimistic, but I can hope it’s because they’re waiting for someone else to accept an offer. Fingers crossed, haha.

        My info interview at lunch was very positive and calming about plans C and D, fortunately.

    1. Lora*

      Because it sucks. Last time I sent in a helpdesk ticket about it, I was told that Microsoft knows about the bug and probably won’t be fixing it any time soon.

    2. hermit crab*

      I can’t help but imagine that our conference rooms have personalities, based on their accept/reject habits for meeting invites.

      The best one, with the excellent windows and where no one outside the room can hear you, is a no-nonsense Mrs. Landingham type. She will shut. you. down. and reject your meeting invite in two seconds. Who do you think you are, that you tried to schedule something the week of the board meeting?!

      Whereas the lonely conference room, tucked in an awkward corner with no video-conference capabilities, overlooking the HVAC equipment, waits a little bit to accept your request because he doesn’t want to seem too desperate. But he always accepts in the end. Sometimes I request that one first, just to feel better — there is a very specific sort of hopelessness that comes from getting your meeting request rejected by an inanimate object.

  27. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Apparently some people at work are negotiating for higher hourly pay rates, since the market is tight- but management asked them not to tell others about it. We’re all lawyers, so they said “we can’t stop you from sharing the information but your coworkers might not like you for it.” Seems strange.

  28. not that Michelle*

    Yesterday I had to come in to work super early because of a meeting. I had a meeting in the afternoon as well, but in between the two meetings there was a management one so everyone else got to take an extra long lunch. I got a few inches cut off my hair and had it dyed a shade darker. I also had to change my blazer from a gray one to a black one because I had spilled coffee all over the one I was wearing (thankfully I had my clean stuff from the dry cleaner in my car). I felt a bit like that woman from the letter who would always completely change her appearance in the middle of the work day. It’s funny too because my name is actually Michelle, the same name as the one used in the letter. I kept thinking about that letter all day after I had changed. Besides a few compliments on my hair, no one said anything bad or anything so it was fine.

    (Was there ever an update to that one btw?)

  29. Dr. Doll*

    If we have administrative assistants or former AA’s reading, I would love to get an opinion: What is a reasonable turnaround time for processing minor paperwork? The kind that needs one or two pieces of readily available information and then handed to the boss for a signature, then sent to the appropriate office? I mean *your* parts, not waiting for the boss to sign.

    2 business days? 3? 10? I need to be able to set a specific expectation and I want to be sure it’s reasonable.

    I realize it does depend on how busy you are with other things, so let’s assume that this is your main responsibility and the other workload is not crushing.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Former receptionist, who also handled a lot of admin asst–type things.

      If this is the main responsibility, I would say an hour, two hours? Something like that. If it’s not the main responsibility, 1-2 days.

    2. Leah the (former) Admin (now manager of admins)*

      For a GOOD admin, 1 – 2 hours *maybe* depending on what else is going on. The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to give the AA a deadline. So if you give the AA something at noon, say you need it back by COB. And then follow up if it doesn’t happen (again, a good AA would already do that). And if the deadline isn’t realistic the AA will push back and you can discuss *when* it can happen. (Sorry, I’m swamped with supporting the Teapot Project…can this wait until noon tomorrow? Or Yeah, the boss is on travel for the next two days, so I can get it ready for her when she gets back and send it then).

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Fully agree with giving a deadline. If you aren’t comfortable with just giving one, how about asking the admin asst directly? “I’d like to have this back by noon. What do you have on your plate right now? Do you think that’d work?” If they push back, you can see what the pushback looks like. For example, the admin asst might say “I have X, Y, and Z to do. Can I get it back to you by 1:30pm instead?” And you might agree that’s reasonable under the circumstances.

        1. zora*

          To be honest, though, if this is a common task happening with regularity, a discussion about the turnaround time each and every time is a waste of everyone’s time. This should not necessitate a whole conversation for each document. And as the admin, stopping whatever I’m currently working on to discuss the deadline would annoy me, I could have finished it and given it back in the time we just decided the deadline.

          I would go with the overall time limit for this task as a rule: “These kinds of tasks will be emailed or dropped on your desk, and I need them completed within 1 business day. (and then explicitly point out) The exception would be if you have other urgent things on your plate that take precedent. In that case, I need to you explicitly tell me you have something else to prioritize, and give me a timeline when you CAN have the document to me (by the end of the week, etc). “

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            But I’m assuming the Dr. Doll has never had this conversation. Obviously, you don’t need to ask what the ETA is every time. The first time would help to establish what a reasonable turnaround time is.

            1. zora*

              Ok, that makes sense. Asking the admin what she thinks is reasonable is fine in that context. But I definitely think it needs to be framed as an overarching, everytime this task comes up discussion. Not opening up a debate on the deadline every single time a single document needs to be signed.

              1. Anonymous Educator*

                Yes, it should be a data point of “Ah, so if admin is roughly this busy, it can be reasonably done in X amount of time” and not “I’d better ask again every time, because the answer will be wildly different on every occasion.”

    3. Bad Candidate*

      Well, like you said, it depends on how busy you are. I would say within 1-2 days, unless otherwise specified. I would say though that an AA might not look busy but actually is, so if you didn’t give a definite turn around time, they might have given it a low priority.

    4. DivineMissL*

      EA here. That sounds easy; if you handed it to me now and I wasn’t swamped, I’d have it ready to go within an hour or so. If you gave it to me and asked, “Is it possible to get this processed by tomorrow at lunchtime?” I’d tell you whether or not that was realistic. That gives the AA the ability to tell you what his/her workload is, and is respectful of their time.

      1. Alice*

        I think it also depends on what it is and the urgency – you need to tell the AA if it’s urgent enough for them to drop other activities to do now, or if it can wait a bit.

    5. jmm*

      6+ year admin assistant here –
      I try to organize my workflow so I get all the “quick wins” out of the way first — tasks I can accomplish in 10 minutes or less, so I have big chunks of time for more time-consuming projects. I’d lump your task in with those things and hopefully have the doc on the boss’s desk within 30 minutes.

    6. zora*

      I agree with 1-2 hours. Unless I am in the middle of something super urgent.

      But if you are dealing with a timeliness/prioritizing problem with a specific person, I would say 1 business day. As in, it needs to be in your boss’s hand ready for signature within 1 business day/24 hours. If you receive it at 10am on Monday, in your boss’s hands by 10am Tuesday. And then once you have it back, should be on the way to the appropriate office by the end of that business day.

      This is the kind of thing that reminds me I am amazing at my job and am way underpaid. Sigh.

    7. ScarlettNZ*

      The turnaround time might also depend on what the boss’ preference is when it comes to admin-related tasks. When I was working in academia, the head of department and I would meet every morning at 11am. That’s when I gave her any items which required signing, so if something came in after that time, unless it was urgent, it would have to wait until the next morning.

    8. Pam*

      Also, what about the availability of the signers? If the admin had to track them down or demand attention to get a signature, that’s going to add time. My office can deliver a document in five minutes, but if the department chair chooses to ignore it, there’s nothing we can do.

      1. zora*

        She said not including waiting for the boss. This is just putting a time limit on the time the admin is taking to do her parts of the task.

    9. Mephyle*

      Another factor is what “readily available” means in your context. Does the AA know where to find the information or is part of the task to find out where it is? Can it be found from the AA’s own computer, or does it entail physically going to another place? Does the AA have direct access to it, or does access have to be granted by someone else? Will it already be in the format needed for the boss’s signature, or does AA have to do something in that regard, like reformatting, adding a part for the signature, or compiling pieces from more than one source, etc.? Will it have to be printed, and is that straightforward?
      Let’s say AA’s plate is clear and they can get on it right away. The above factors could make a difference between 10 minutes and several hours.

  30. i2c2*

    I asked for something I wanted at work (to miss a business trip on which I would have had a pretty marginal role), and I got it!

    I credit AAM for giving me the confidence to ask. So relieved not to have to fly across the country for this one.

  31. Regretsy*

    I have been offered a job. I asked if they could give me a start date 3 months from now (since that would work better for me for various reasons). They said they would look into it, and at this point they have been looking into it for about a week. In the meantime, I have realized that I don’t want this job. What is the best way to write an email to them declining the offer without looking like a complete flip-flopper?

      1. Regretsy*

        I realized that I am not willing to make the compromises I will need to make if I accept the job. I gathered from my interviews that I would have to put up with bad culture fit, some dysfunctionality, and a long commute, but I had decided that the salary was going to be worth it. In the past week, after having more discussions with my spouse and mentors, I have understood that this job would be too much of a (mental) health risk for me.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think you have to worry about appearing to be a flip-flopper. Taking any job is a major life decision. You can just say you’ve had a chance to think it over some more and have decided not to take the job, and you wanted to let them know as soon as possible so they may still have a chance to reach out to other finalists in the candidate pool.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re declining it because it’s taken them a week to look into it? How about inquiring about the status of the start date inquiry? If they say “Well, we’re still not sure and still looking into it,” you can then respond asking how long the inquiry will take, and if they still don’t give you a clear answer, you can then just say that piece is critical for you, so you’re withdrawing your candidacy. It’s not flip-flopping. It’s saying “This is my part of the negotiation. You can’t meet that? Okay, then.”

      1. Regretsy*

        Sorry, I should have been clearer. My reason for changing my mind isn’t related to how long they are taking. As I clarified to Alison above, I have realized that the salary will actually not make up for some negative aspects of this job.

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      I don’t have a response to your question, unfortunately; I just wanted to lavish praise upon your username. I have missed Regretsy so much since it went defunct. Which I just discovered from googling was more than four and a half years ago now. Q_Q

      1. Regretsy*

        Thank you! It was such an awesome internet place. And now my inner voice exclaims “regretsy!” whenever I regret something – hence the username for this question.

  32. the_scientist*

    I have been involved in the hiring process for a vacancy on my team and we arranged phone screens for a few candidates. One of them completely lost it and berated the recruiter over how rude and disrespectful it was to ask a candidate to do a 20-minute phone screen (????)

    So…..the screening process was effective, just not in the way we’d imagined it being. And I hope the temper tantrum was worth it because this person is defs not getting a job at this organization ever.

    2. Samata*

      People who berate recruiters so unprofessionally early in the process baffle me…like what do they think is actually going to be accomplished?

    5. Lady Jay*

      Ooo boy. I lost my temper during a job search once . . . but that was after I’d spent hours filling out an application, only to have them request that I use a different form, and then once I’d filled THAT one out, have them request yet a third form instead.

      I think it’s especially bad that this person lost their temper over a completely normal part of the hiring process.

  33. ThursdaysGeek*

    Here’s an interesting work story. The co-worker who sits across me in cubeville, does first aid with his wife at various events, including our local boat races back in July. The people who attend the boat races are often serious fans, and this co-worker has had a family from Seattle sitting next to them for years of boat races (we’re across the state from Seattle). This year, when the now young man went to hug their first-aid friends goodbye, he put down his cooler (holding a frisbee), and forgot to pick it back up.

    My co-worker has been trying to track him down since July, knowing only his name and city. The young man was finally found on Facebook and my co-worker joined FB just so he could send him a message. And when the friend request was accepted, he casually looked through the pictures…and found me. So now, my nephew’s frisbee and cooler is on its way back to him. What a small world!

    Apparently, there had been some discussion between co-workers on this search, including saying my nephew’s name. But since I tune out the sound around me, I hadn’t heard it. I’m really impressed with the tenacity of my co-worker, working to reunite a young man with his frisbee.

    1. fposte*

      Now I’m hoping that everything I’ve ever lost is in the hands of some kind person who’s feverishly searching for me. If they contact you, let me know.

    3. Drew*

      Looking at some of the other posters in my HOA’s Facebook group (it’s not stalking, it’s just getting to know my neighbors, right?), I found out that one of them is Facebook friends with the younger brother of a guy I gamed with 20 years ago. Both brothers are my FB friends, which is how the connection came up.

      I’m trying to decide if “Hey, I saw that you’re friends with Fergus, who I’ve known since he was a teenager; mind if I ask how y’all know each other?” is too weird. I think yes.

      1. Beckie*

        I do get a kick of scanning through the “find your friends” on Facebook and learning that a random person’s two mutual friends with me are, like, my cousin who’s a police officer in New Jersey and a high school acquaintance who lives in Oregon. How did that happen?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I love these stories.

      In the 70s I borrowed my aunt’s hat when we went to the beach. An evil wind grabbed the hat and took it out over the water. Making matters worse there was a chain link fence between us and the water in that area. We saw boats waay out on the water, but thought nothing further of it. The hat was gone, period. It was probably a few months that went by and the hat arrived in the mail at my aunt’s house.

      The hat went out far enough for one of the boaters to grab it. Using binoculars they read my aunt’s license plate number. DMV gave them her address and they mailed the hat. We were amazed.

    5. Not Australian*

      Not quite the same, but … my grandson dropped his favourite ‘floppy dog’ toy into the sea while on a day out, and the whole family watched in horror as it was swept away on the tide. He was inconsolable, so his mother found him a similar one online and bought it – but he was still heartbroken and worried about his friend. Anyway, my daughter in law worked out where the tide would have taken the toy, found relevant Facebook groups for the area and asked people to look out for floppy dog when they were walking on the beach. A couple of weeks later, he turned up in the post – a lady had found him, put him through the washing machine, parcelled him up and sent him on, and now my grandson has *two* floppy dogs!

      1. ..Kat..*

        This is wonderful for two reasons. One, you used SCIENCE to help solve the problem. And two, the kindness of strangers.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Wow, on both the aunt’s hat and the floppy dog – now those are people who really went above and beyond!

  34. Plotting my escape but until then....*

    I started a new job a few months back and unfortunately the place is super dysfunctional (infighting and politics abound), poorly managed in every way (they just announced a round of head-scratching layoffs) and to boot my direct boss is difficult (never around, gives super vague feedback and has unrealistic exception about how long things take to get done). I’m looking to leave ASAP and have been applying to things, networking and doing all that good stuff.

    My question is basically how do I make it work until I leave. Any practical advice from folks who have been there? Some days all I can do is try to keep my sanity in the midst of everything. I keep my head down and try not to be emotionally invested. And that can be SUPER hard in itself. But sometimes I worry I am atrophying as a professional in not trying harder at managing up or going up over and beyond to make projects as successful as they can be. Also, it can feel crappy to phone it in. But I also see what happens to colleagues who speak up more and generally they don’t affect any change and are metaphorically banging their heads against the wall.

    2. Database Developer Dude*

      Have a plan. Try to get something you want out of it.

      I work for a fairly large management and technology consulting firm in the DC area. My current gig is at a government agency. I’m a data architect. The particular contract my firm has me working at puts the ‘fun’ in dysfunctional. The government lead, however, is a big believer in training. “Your dime, my time” he says.

      So I’m picking up a couple of certifications, and doing the best I can while I’m there, plus scheduling a five week “break”, which is some active duty in the Army Reserve for a required military professional education course.

      Once I get my second cert in March, in April, I’ll start looking within the firm for other places to go. It’s even money on whether I make it in this particular office to the end of September next year.

      When things get bad in the office, I focus on the good, and keep my eyes on the prize.

    3. Deloris Van Cartier*

      That’s a really tough situation to be in so sending lots of positive thoughts your way! I really struggled with this at my last job as I’m someone who bases a lot of my self-worth/image on my job and how successful I am at it. I am working on this as I know it’s not a great way to go but this can be really challenging when you work somewhere you can’t be successful because of the structure or leadership. One thing I found really helpful was to find something outside of work to make feel accomplished or productive. This could be a craft project, working through a list of books, volunteering or mastering a physical skill. Feeling like I was doing well in something other than work let me go to work and feel like I wasn’t a failure for making the organization amazing and being incredible at my job. I was then able to be ok with doing my job to the best of my ability, even if it wasn’t the way I would have done it or thought it should be done.

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Having been in that type of mess I found setting myself a goal of some type of personal accomplishment every day really helped. Last part of each day I would work on my to do list for the next day in which I would plan out what I was going to work on and what I hoped to accomplish. Sometimes it was simply to learn a new technology or watch a web presentation. But give yourself something to work on for you every day.

      The other piece of advice comes from a bumper sticker my predecessor left attached to the side of my desk in what was the best place I ever worked. “I used to be disgusted but now I’m just amused”. Learn to laugh inside at the insanity around you and don’t take it personally.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah… been there.
      I don’t have much besides keeping your head down, but maybe some of the following.

      1. Try to finish at least ONE good project you can be proud of.
      2. Make at least ONE good contact/reference, preferable someone in management.
      3. Don’t give them anything bad to say about you.

      This will help make it easier when you leave. You can point to it being a poor fit but you did A, B and C while there.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      When you start worrying about atrophy, tell yourself that is a waste of time there is too much to do and you can’t spend time on that. Then busy yourself working on the steps of your escape plan.

      I believe we have a finite amount of brain space. If we are worrying about stagnation then we have lost valuable brain space that could be used figuring out how to avoid stagnation.

      My suggestion is to take walks, daily if possible. Your mind will feel keener/sharper and it will be a point each day where you can really think through your escape plan. The daily walks will help you disperse that excess energy that comes with stress.

  35. Long time lurker*

    I wanted to make a separate post for this.

    I’ve been at my first job out of college for under a year, and it’s like… my brain isn’t being used. In college I had to really wrack my brain and think when doing schoolwork (actually this probably applies to most of my education). And God knows that sometimes I would think it’s too much, but I was growing. Bluntly, I was smart. And now I feel like my mind is turning to mush and I’m losing everything I’ve picked up in school from being out of practice as far as learning and critical thinking goes. Yet I’m also working more hours than I did in unit (barring exam season). I hate to sound like the main character of a Disney movie, but I can’t help but feel like I can do so much more.

    Anyone else ever feel like this?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think that’s fairly common for a first job out of college. For me and my teacher friends, not so much. But most of my friends were not teachers straight out of college. They were receptionists, editorial assistants, production assistants, editorial assistants, administrative assistants, etc. Lots of filing, making photocopies, and fetching coffee.

      So, it’s normal.

      But I don’t think you should let your brain rot, though. Is there stuff you can do outside of work to stimulate your brain? Read books on your commute, take part in some kind of brain-stimulating activity with friends during the evenings?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, normal. Entry level positions don’t have a lot of thinking because you need to prove yourself before you can make big time thinking decisions. I’d suggest getting some hobbies, not necessarily “thinking” hobbies, but stimulating, like art or writing or hiking. Think of work like a brain vacation, and you can choose the destination for your fun brain stimulation.

    2. Leah the (former) Admin*

      Can you find new work to do to stretch in your new role? Something related but not in your core responsibilities?

    3. Lora*

      *settles into rocking chair, rubs liniment on arthritic joints, sips a cup of chamomile tea, hollers GET OFF MY LAWN at the neighbors*

      You will not be using your brain or challenged for a solid 3-5 years. This is the nature of entry level work: In 1975, even well into the mid-80s, a college degree wasn’t required for half as many jobs. Not because those jobs couldn’t have benefited from more educated staff, but because the educational level actually required to perform the job was and remains, realistically, “high school with varying amounts of job training”. As you have found out.

      As more jobs were automated and the regular sort of day to day jobs that high school graduates usually could make a career out of (not only manufacturing, farming and energy, but also many things which are now considered entry-level for college grads, administrative type of work) vanished, guidance counselors started shoving as many kids into college as they possibly could, and new weird student loan funding started to happen which didn’t previously exist. Colleges, happy to get $tuition$ in whatever form, expanded campuses and class sizes and hired adjuncts to teach and suddenly a job that used to be suitable for a reasonably bright high school graduate with a few years’ of experience, became jobs that required a college degree – ANY college degree.

      I’m sorry. It sucks. I honestly don’t know how to undo it. Would if I could, but now colleges even teach remedial courses for students who don’t have basic language and math skills – in the past those students would have been encouraged to go into a job that didn’t require college, and they’d have found one, and they’d have had a decent quality of life too.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Two reactions:

      First… yeah, first jobs are often less engaging/interesting/intellectual than college. It’s a tough transition if you’re a person who enjoys an academic environment and has gotten validation from your abilities in that arena.

      Second — and I speak from experience here and don’t mean to be harsh — I think this feeling stems from a mistaken belief in the superiority of intellectualism over other kinds of success, interest, or challenge. It’s true that you’re likely not going to be chewing on political theory or debating the meaning of the farmer and his bull in Guernica… but you will be challenged in learning work that is new to you, developing systems to improve how you do that work, navigating complex political relationships, figuring out how to advance a project that isn’t important to anyone else but is essential to you, considering how much you should push an issue and when you should let it go (even when you’re right!), etc. Work can be really, really interesting.

      1. Wolfram alpha*

        I completely disagree with your second point. It is OK to want intellectually challenging work without meaning you think your better than everyone else.

        Honestly I find comments like this to be anti-intellectual which I see far more often then the reverse.

    5. Merida Ann*

      I definitely get that feeling! I went into a field in STEM primarily because I love doing math and wanted to use it in my career, but in my actual work, I’m not doing any math! I’m mostly writing contracts and arranging meetings between contractors and not doing anything I actually went to school for and it’s so frustrating! I’ve literally had several dreams (including last night) where I was just doing math problems, because I miss it.

    6. Agent Rosenflower*

      Normal, and I wish I had known that in my first job after grad school. I thought I was underachieving and failing at my career because I had a job where I wasn’t 110% intellectually stimulated all the time. It was really upsetting for me at the time.

    7. Michael Carmichael*

      I second (third?) what Lora and Victoria Nonprofit say, above, but I strongly disagree with those who say just get in and out of work and find your intellectual stimulation elsewhere. I think you’d be doing yourself a huge disservice. But by asking this question, I think you have a huge opportunity to not waste those years, workwise.

      The work itself may not be very intellectually challenging for the next few years, so I’d suggest paying close attention instead to how your office is run, and watching things like how management makes decisions, how things are communicated, looking at processes and trying to understand the reasoning behind them. There are tons of opportunities for learning and critical thinking inherent in just working somewhere and observing how things are done! The dynamics of any office are boring only if you have zero understanding of what you are looking at.

      I know for me, this finally happened by osmosis, because I was too self-absorbed – I too thought I was underutilized. I think the reason we as young people are ‘underutilized’ is because despite however many years in school, we don’t actually know anything about how things really work. Also, there is a tendency still to imagine that some ideal state can be achieved if only the company would do X or Y. This led me to some (now super embarrassing) moments in which I opined that our processes were dumb or inefficient, or that leadership didn’t know what it was doing. My other shame is that I didn’t make a huge effort to learn from my older, more experienced co-workers…my hubris made me believe that I, in my early to mid-twenties, was a peer of workers twice my age, simply because we were at more or less the same ‘level’ and I thought we were equally smart. Job title/brains don’t matter, you simply aren’t the peer of someone with 10-20 more years of life experience. I wish I had taken the time to cultivate those relationships and learn from them about both work and life. I try now to be that person for others, if they want the advice/mentoring.

      The more you can learn about your business and field, the sooner you will be able to contribute something of value and do more. This is true no matter what you end up doing – I don’t think anything you learn will not be of value to you later in life.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Really great answer.
        I took my job boredom and used it to hone in closer on some of the particulars of the job. I became known for doing X, Y and Z very well. I was the go-to for A and B.
        What I did was I told myself that any job will be boring after a bit. The saying, familiarity breeds contempt? Well just before we hit contempt we hit boredom. The challenge of many jobs is what do we do when that boredom strikes. When you are on your 10,000th brain surgery or rocket launch it’s not new anymore, what will you do?
        I hope you chuckle. I used to tell myself that we do not get to pick the ways our jobs challenge us, the challenges just pop right up and there we are facing this unwanted aspect of a job. It’s how we respond to those things that we don’t feel like dealing with that can make us or break us as professionals. Tell yourself that you are sharpening yourself in ways you never expected.

    8. Wolfram alpha*

      I recommend dedicating some time each day to automating or otherwise improving your processes. Is stimulating and will eliminate a lot of the boring day to day stuff.

  36. Be the Change*

    This is school-related for someone else: I have a little internet friend in the India/Pakistan region who wants to study in London and is wondering how to find universities that have scholarships. (Honestly I think she wants me to say “Oh, my friend Dr. Brown at Oxford has lots of scholarships and is just looking for an emo poet! Here’s her number!” Oh well…).

    Anyone who has studied in London, any ideas at all? I know zilch.

    1. Grits McGee*

      This isn’t London specific, but when I was looking at grad schools in the UK (from the US), I had pretty good luck just emailing the contact person for the department I was interested in and asking what kind of funding opportunities were available for international students.

    3. Anony McAnonface*

      Not to be dismissive of this, but the best way to find schools with scholarships is our old friend Ms Google.

      Depending on what your friend wants to study she can look up Unis/colleges that have that program, then look and see what scholarships they offer. Most schools have ones specifically for international students.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Tell her to email the universities she wants to study at and ask if they provide logins to the Alternative Guide to University Funding. I think you can buy access too but some unis will give you access for free. And to look on each institution’s website as they should list some info.

  37. Unhappy Intern*

    So the weirdest thing happened. I posted on the open thread and asked for advice because my internship was boring me to tears, my supervisor was terrible, and I couldn’t imagine making it to the end of my contract.

    All that has improved overnight. Yay! I’m less unhappy with my internship, but I still don’t see myself sticking around. Even though I’ve been given new responsibilities, I’ve noticed my supervisor doesn’t think things through and more often than not, the work I do and the projects I’ve worked on are made irrelevant because she changed her mind after I spent weeks on it. And I don’t see her changing in the near future.

    So I found a new, exciting opening at a great company, but I need to write a cover letter for it, and I’ve never written one. I did read the AMA archives, but as I’m on a different country, I’m asking my professors for advice.

    1. Samata*

      I’ve noticed my supervisor doesn’t think things through and more often than not, the work I do and the projects I’ve worked on are made irrelevant because she changed her mind after I spent weeks on it.

      Welcome to the working world! It gets better, but I’ve seen (and heard about) lots of this!

  38. Bend & Snap*

    I was put up for promotion and found out this week I didn’t get it. It wasn’t a case of competing with someone else, but part of a broader HR decision. I had an amazing 360 review, am doing work 1 and in some cases 2 levels above my current role, always meet or exceed goals and get nothing but praise for my work.

    I am so flipping demotivated. It doesn’t really help to know that this is how life is in a big corporate machine. I feel completely devalued, disappointed and disillusioned.

    2. medium of ballpoint*

      I’m sorry! When this happened to me I gave myself a few days to wallow and be angry and then tried to focus a lot on self-care and putting together a plan for whatever came next. I don’t know if that helps you at all, but I’m sending good vibes your way!

    3. Lora*

      *raises glass* Me too. I am extra-mad because boss made it sound like a really sure thing and then kind of announced out of the blue that he was unhappy I hadn’t done a thing which he had SPECIFICALLY TOLD ME NOT TO DO.

      Sorry for shouty all caps. I am really mad about this.

      Please accept this virtual margarita from an internet stranger.

  39. Triplestep*

    I posted here last week that I’d accepted a job offer, and that I’d been told by the in-house recuriter that I’d hear from the hiring manager in the next couple of days. In the meantime, I would need to clear the offer contingencies: A background check and a pre-employment health screening performed onsite. (Healthcare facility)

    Early yesterday, I reached out to the recuriter to ask that she notify me by e-mail when I had cleared the contingencies. I added that I had not yet heard from the hiring manager, but it might be that she was waiting until the last to hurdles were cleared. The recruiter wrote back and said A.) I’ll nudge the hiring manager, she’s been really busy B.) You would have been told at your pre-emplyment health screening if anything was amiss, and C.) The results of your background check won’t be available until after you start.

    I don’t expect to fail my background check, but it’s clear they expect people to give notice and leave a current job, then recind a job offer after the start date if their check turns up anything. That’s kind of nervy! Also, after two weeks, I would have liked to hear “Welcome aboard!” from the hiring manager. (Still nothing.) Both of these things are giving me pause about giving notice on Monday. I am really just not feeling the love here.

    Am I overreacting? Should I just reach out to the hiring manager myself to say I cleared the health screening and am excitied about starting?

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      I read that as the results of your background check won’t be available to you, until day 1. They should have already vetted it before that point.

      1. Triplestep*

        Her words were “Background check more than likely will not be back before you start.” That tells me they expect you to leave your current job and start with them before the full vetting.

    3. CAA*

      How deep is the background check and what does it include? An initial check of credit report plus state and federal criminal records should be completed within a couple of weeks. If they’re doing college graduation and transcripts or residency, then those can take longer.

      For positions that require low level government security clearances it’s pretty normal that you start the job after a provisional approval and then it can take several months for the full clearance to come through. If you fail the clearance process, you do indeed get fired. I had to fire one guy who had been with us as a temp and then couldn’t get a clearance once he was perm because he had lied about having graduated from college.

      I don’t think not hearing from the hiring manager is that big a deal. I don’t contact candidates between making the offer and the start date. I am on the phone with HR when we make the offer, and then HR sends an overnight package that includes a printed offer letter, benefits info, pre-employment screening info, etc. Any communication that happens after the offer is generally between HR and the candidate (we have already discussed salary expectations during the interview phase, so we don’t get a lot of negotiation attempts.) If you do want to reach out to the hiring manager, then it’s ok to send a short email.

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks for coming in.

        The offer is contingent upon satisfactory completion of a criminal background check and relevant Department of Public Health Requirements. (Verification of ability to be employed in an organization that participates in Medicare, Medicaid, and other Federal Health Care Programs.)

        When I signed the release, I noticed that they would also be checking credit. (My credit is excellent, although I am having an excise tax dispute with my city which is technically in city collections. Who knows if that would turn up?)

        I just don’t like the expectation that you leave your job before they are done vetting you. The last time I had to have a background check it was complete – and my manager contacted me – before I gave notice. I’m just uneasy about this.

        1. Triplestep*

          Um, that was supposed to be “thanks for *chiming* in”.

          I also think it’s worth mentioning that had it not been mentioned twice by the recruiter that the hiring manager would be contacting me, I might not be expecting it.

          1. CAA*

            I understand that the recruiter set your expectations regarding the hiring manager contacting you, but I guess that you probably shouldn’t take the recruiter at her word when it comes to the actions of another person she doesn’t even manage. She can’t really force the hiring manager to call or email you and give warm fuzzies. Honestly, if I were the hiring manager, I’d feel pretty weird doing it, so I could see myself just letting it slide.

            Since you feel strongly about the background check, I do think you should tell them that you’re just not comfortable submitting your resignation for your current position and starting a new one until that part is complete and ask for more details about when they expect to have everything they need.

            You can find out about the excise tax thing by asking for your credit report from freecreditreport dot com.

            1. Triplestep*

              Thanks again. It helps to have your perspective about the hiring manager.

              I know from Credit Karma that I have excellent credit and nothing in collections. The city’s private collections division may not report to the credit reporting agencies.

              But I did sign off on a pretty deep dive background check, and the employer’s paperwork indicated they retained the right to recheck as long as I work there. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So I’m torn between doing things their way, or delaying the start date (three weeks from now) and potentially looking like I have something to hide by insisting on doing this the way I think should be their SOP. (Background check first, start date once cleared.)

    4. Phoenix Programmer*

      I would not give motive without clearer indication of start date and cleared continuing personally.

      1. Triplestep*

        I should have mentioned that I do have a start date and am scheduled for an orientation. If I give notice on Monday, that would be three weeks. I wanted to give three weeks due to team meetings scheduled the following week.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Do you have a written offer yet? I mean, if you haven’t heard from the hiring manager, do you really have a start date? And thus, would this allow you to slow things down as far as having time for all the background checks to be completed? I’m with you on wanting the background check to be completed. There are so many errors in credit reports. And people digging into your background could misinterpret something as bad. I bet even Mother Theresa could have blips on her background check that could give someone pause. (Did you know she hangs out with shifty characters? They are poor, diseased, drug addicted, etc. Better not hire her!)

          1. Triplestep*

            Thanks, yes – I have a written offer, and part of what’s in writing is my start date.

            Over the weekend, I decided to go ahead and play by their rules, and I’ll be giving notice tomorrow. Then this morning (Monday) the hiring manager reached out to me by e-mail, and wanted to set up a time to chat before I start. So I feel much better about that part.

            My rationale for starting before the background check is as follows:
            1. I read some of the archives here and note that it’s not uncommon.
            2. They can get rid of me any time for any reason anyway. They can give me a 90 day trial and fire me on day 89. They can also fire me on day 91.
            3. This is their SOP, so why not go along with it. Hopefully on the very slim chance my report turns anything up, they’ll hear me out or let me correct it.

  40. heynonnynonny*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated a raise when working at a state university system where top yearly merit raises are determined by the governing board? Any tips on how to ask?

    Some background: I was offered this job at a lower salary than what was listed on the job ad, and told that there was no room to move up when I tried to negotiate. I’ve now been here a little over a year and received my first merit raise (which happens for all employees at the start of the new school year). I checked our publicly posted salaries and I am the lowest paid person with my job title–and my new raise still puts me below what the next-lowest-paid people with my title were hired in at.

    This is my first full-time job out of college, but I bring a specialized degree and work history, have extensive experience in our area (far greater than what was asked for in the job posting) and I’ve taken increasing responsibilities over my time here.

    I would like to talk about raising my salary but I’m not sure how to do that in an environment where raises are so structured. My immediate boss has no ability to give raises by herself, and tends not to like to rock the boat, and I’ve never spoken to my unit’s director (the only person who could unilaterally okay a raise).

    1. fposte*

      I have, but it wasn’t in anything like your situation. You’re in a tricky spot, because you accepted the salary you got, there was no deal or promise for an individual raise, and it doesn’t sound like anything has massively changed with the job that would require its reclassification; mostly this seems to be regret about your starting salary.

      In a situation like that your best spur is if they’re hiring again for your position and the pay is higher than yours. But there’s always gotta be somebody who’s the lowest-paid one in the position, and you’re the most recent so it makes sense that it’s you; it’s also not uncommon, in broke-ass universities, for starting pay to be lower than in previous years. I think it wouldn’t hurt you to ask your manager about parity, but I wouldn’t spend the personal capital after only a year of employment of going to the unit director over this unless you’d achieved something super-impressive.

      1. heynonnynonny*

        Thanks, that’s what I was thinking. Unfortunately while I enjoy working here it’s seeming more and more like I’ll have to leave to make a decent wage.

        To be clear though, several of the other people with my title were hired the same time as me and started at higher pay. Different units, though, and my unit does have a known reputation for not paying the non-academic staff on par with the rest of the university.

        1. medium of ballpoint*

          This happened at one of my previous workplaces and unfortunately, none of the lower-paid staff were able to negotiate for livable salaries. They ended up leaving and were clear in their exit interviews that salary disparity was part of the reason. (I don’t think that’s made much difference in the grander scheme of things yet, but they were hopeful that repeated feedback to that effect might help someone later along the line.) Good luck to you!

    2. Michael Carmichael*

      At my state university, you do this in your situation by getting a market value increase. If you can show that you are paid under market and have excellent reviews, you can get some movement here. There can be a challenge though if the state determines what market value is – they are notorious for having very outdated, unrealistic market numbers. If there is a potential parity issue – like you and the other women in the department/position are being paid less than any men, that is usually something you can use since HR doesn’t want to go there.

      Also at my U – it really helps to have someone to advocate for you. If your immediate boss isn’t the raise-asking-for type, this may be an issue. Where I work, the supervisor has to push for action. If you do some kind of service work for a higher-up in another department (but same HR), you might be able to leverage that. It really depends on what kind of position you are in.

      I sympathize though! We are losing lots of folks to private universities, and a lot of the issue is pay.

    3. Ezzl*

      I work at a state university. From personal experience, a year isn’t very long as far as salary goes. In looking at the publicly posted salaries, I’d also consider how long the people have been in their positions– if they’ve been there a few years, they’ve probably had a few raises under their belts, and also if they have other qualifications (more experiences, degrees, do they supervise people, work more hours than you, etc), then it makes sense that they’re paid more.

      The way I got a significant raise was eventually getting another job offer. This was after I’d been there a few years, and they didn’t want to lose me, so they matched it. An obvious risk is if they don’t want to give you a raise, they’ll just tell you to take the job/maybe kick you out of your current job.

      But in the years before my raise, it did suck to be not paid well. I combated it by taking on more responsibilities, and doing a kickass job, and making myself pretty indispensable. At my university you kind of have to have a reason (more responsibility, more hours, more duties, outside offer) to get any significant raise. Looking back, I can see that the reason I wasn’t paid well initially was because I was in an entry level position, and it just took time to get raises and move up. Hang in there. I know a year seems like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things you’re just starting. Consider taking on additional responsibilities, which will give you bargaining power if you ask for raises, or will at least beef up your resume so that you can eventually leave for a better paid job.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Can I ask how you got your raises, and whether you got them in your first position? I have been working at a state university in an entry-level role for close to two years. I have taken on several significant duties that are not part of the normal job, and I am widely respected and valued in my department. I would like a raise (preferably one that comes with a better job!) and want to know when and how to ask.

        1. Ezzl*

          I have a super supportive boss, but I’ve been in the same department in a job that has morphed and changed through the years. I’ve been here 8ish years, and have had maybe 3 or 4 different titles? But it’s never been a re-apply situation, it’s always been, hey, your job duties have changed significantly, why don’t we change your title to match.

          If you have evaluations, that’s generally a good time to point out that your duties have expanded, and to ask for a raise and/or title change. I think with all of the title changes I got a small raise. The big one was when I had an outside job offer, since that was justification my boss could use with HR.

          Our university also has different types of position, so my boss also advocated (for years!) with HR, and finally got me moved to the better position type. That involved a lot of both me and my boss writing justifications about how my job now involved more independent decision-making.

          If there are people in your department who have successfully advocated for raises/title changes, sometimes they can be good allies, since they can give you more insight into the department and department-specific strategies. Like I didn’t realize that the position type change was even a possibility until it happened to my colleague.

    4. Ghost Town*

      Are you me? I wouldn’t say I had far more experience than what was requested, but I certainly fulfilled the requirement.

      At my university (large state institution) this sort of off-cycle raise was hard to get and usually needed an outside reason (like taking on person in a higher classification’s job duties for a time and even then, it usually only worked for support staff. professional staff were just expected to do it.). The only way I was able to get a meaningful raise (where I actually take home more money each month) was to move positions and schools within the university.

      If you are within the publicly posted range, I think it is going to be a hard fight. If you are below the median, you probably have a shot with the market value approach. In my old position, we tried to have my job re-coded (university job-function/responsibility coding) to try to get me a raise, but that just succeeded in changing my title. And in reality, wages everywhere in the school were so depressed and margins between Associate and Assistant Directors, Program Managers/Coordinators, etc were thin at best. Moving schools, I am the same overall classification code, but make more than my old boss does.

      Where I work, the university is a large employer in a small pond. A small pond filled with highly educated people who want to stay here b/c they love the location or they are attached to faculty/students here.

  41. Kowalski! Options!*

    Interested in hearing the AAM gang’s opinion on this:
    You’re in a position that you like enough, but your division is continually kneecapping itself because no one on staff has Skills A, B, and C. You mostly do X, Y, and Z. You see an internal job posting in your organization that is at the same level as yours, same job title, and has a very strong focus on Skills A, B, and C – skills which you’re interested in developing, but don’t currently have (so applying for the job is not an option). In your organization(s), would it be OK to drop the HR rep or the manager hiring an e-mail, saying, “Look, I don’t have those skills, but I would like to take my job in that direction; could I take you out for a quick coffee to learn more about that job, so I could make my job more like that one?”

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        Sorry, just to clarify: I’d say that to the person who’s hiring for the position while making it clear that I’m not applying for the job – I just want my current job to be more like the job that they’re advertising for.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’m talking about in terms of selling yourself. You don’t want to start with what you lack. You can acknowledge you lack that, but start with what you have to offer.

    2. miyeritari*

      I think that would be fine, but I wouldn’t start with “I don’t know this.” Maybe you could start with “Hi, I’m looking to expand my knowledge in terms of skills A, B and C” instead.

  42. Yorick*

    My former PhD student, Jane, has transferred to a new program at another university, which means she is basically starting over. She has a question about how to interact with another first-year student, Petunia. They had barely spoken until after class one day when Petunia walked out with Jane and confided in her that she had considered suicide recently. Jane was so startled that all she could manage to say was “I’m sorry.” (I gave her the advice of referring people to the university’s counseling services in the future). Since then, Petunia has overshared about her life, including her romantic and sex life. This all makes Jane pretty uncomfortable. Petunia also calls Jane several times per day. Jane usually doesn’t answer and reminds Petunia that she’s very busy, but nothing has changed.

    Does anyone have ideas on how Jane can set up and enforce some boundaries with Petunia while still being kind and mindful of any problems she might be dealing with? Some scripts would be useful.

    1. CMDRBNA*

      Hi Yorick,

      That’s so sad. I feel bad for Jane and for Petunia.

      I think Jane should memorize some scripts that are gentle but firm to redirect Petunia towards people who can actually help her. This might help:

      1. Jane should stop answering Petunia’s phone calls entirely.
      2. When Petunia overshares, Jane can say something like “That really isn’t any of my business. You should talk to someone else about that.”
      3. If Petunia brings up suicide again, Jane can say something like “I’m sorry you’re struggling with this. Please call (student resources/actual people who are trained to deal with this sort of thing).” or “This is really out of my depth, please talk to a mental health professional about this.”

      I’m not minimizing what Petunia’s going through, I have a sibling who has called me in the grips of a psychotic episode, but Jane can’t help Petunia and there are people who can.

      1. Snark*

        And I think there needs to be a really awkward, awful conversation where Jane basically says, “Look, Petunia, you seem like a great person and I genuinely want the best for you and am concerned that you’re going through a difficult time. But we don’t really know each other, we aren’t best friends, and I don’t have the time or bandwidth right now to do emotional labor for you and be your sounding board for all your problems. Right now, all I want to do is get through grad school with a degree and intact sanity, and I can’t be what you want me to be right now. Please stop calling me, please stop oversharing at me, and please don’t consider me your first person to call when you’re feeling distressed, because I’m not going to be here for you like this moving forward.”

    2. Manders*

      Oof, that’s rough. You might want to send Jane over to Captain Awkward to read some of the scripts there about boundary setting.

      In my personal experience, when someone is this pushy and this far away from understanding what’s normal in interactions with near-strangers, you can say all the right things and be direct but it won’t work unless you also follow it up by making yourself physically unavailable. Don’t take the calls, don’t take them up on offers to hang out, literally turn around and walk out of the room if they try to corner you. It feels awful to do this, because it goes against all our instincts to be kind and helpful to people who are in distress, but it’s what you have to do to make the behavior stop.

      (If this were a normal work environment I would suggest going to a manager or HR, but my experience with grad schools has not made me optimistic about anyone in the administration stepping in to help Petunia.)

    3. Emily*

      My university has a program that is within its health services department that is specifically designed for people who are worried about the health of others (pretty much designed specifically for situations like this, where someone is talking to a peer about suicide). Maybe Jane’s university has something similar?

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Seconding! Jane can call the counseling center and any of their staff will be happy to help her think through how she wants to handle this. This is a really common situation and a service most centers offer.

          1. Snark*

            I mean….I don’t disagree, under normal circumstances. But Jane’s in grad school, which means she’s broke, ungodly busy, sleep-deprived, emotionally raw, and using all of her emotional strength to get through every day. At some point, she’s got to look out for number one, and she doesn’t have a day off to devote to meeting with professionals to figure out how best to do emotional labor for Petunia. That’s just not in the bandwidth. Jane can strongly encourage Petunia to go get her own professional help, but beyond that…Petunia kind of shanghaied Jane onto her crew, and it’s not really in Jane’s job description to keep that boat afloat.

              1. Manders*

                I don’t think it’s too mercenary. Grad school is most definitely a “put your own oxygen mask first” situation. I would not want a grad student trying to get involved in caring for a near-stranger in crisis (and I say that as someone who dated a grad student for years–he was still a loving and supportive partner, but he was not capable of being sole emotional support for a suicidal person during those years, and he could have dropped the ball in a dangerous way if he’d tried to do that).

              2. Emi.*

                I don’t think it’s too mercenary, but I also think the counseling center might be able to offer Jane something better than just helping her “figure out how best to do emotional labor for Petunia.” Like, they could help her with boundary-setting skills, or they could give her the right fliers/pamphlets so that when Petunia starts up Jane can say “This is out of my depth, but here’s a flier from the counseling center with their number on it,” which might be more effective than “This is out of my depth, please stahp.”

                I had a vampiric friend like this in undergrad (she was actually my friend before she went full vampire), who would always meet my “I can’t provide X for you” with “But I’m going through a lot and I need X.” I think if I had said “I can’t provide X for you but here’s who can,” it would have been easier to escape.

                1. Snark*

                  But on the flipside, when I – a week after we’d drunkenly hooked up and six days after I’d told her in the kindest possible way I could that we were not in a relationship – told my vampire to go to the campus health center if she was having a depressive episode, she told me that nobody but I could help her because “nobody understands my soul like you.” Not saying it’s necessarily going to happen, but.

                  That said, your point is good.

              3. Panda Bandit*

                It’s not mercenary. Even if Jane wasn’t a grad student, she still isn’t equipped to handle Petunia’s issues. Suicidal thoughts and everything like that are for trained professionals to handle.

            2. Emily*

              It actually is my impression that the university service I was referring to is for alerting health services that someone might be in trouble. As in, Jane alerts them, and they reach out to Petunia. I’m not 100% sure, as I’ve never actually used it, but that is my impression from the marketing I’ve seen.

            3. blackcat*

              Eh, my university has definitely said to me in *both* of my capacities (PhD student and instructor), that I can literally make a 5 minute call and say “I am worried about the mental health of so and so,” give basic info, and be done with it. That ends up saving time in the long run.

            4. Lily Rowan*

              I know it’s probably too late for anyone to see this, but I was thinking of one phone call to a suicide hotline or something on campus for advice on how NOT to do emotional labor for Petunia.

    4. Snark*

      Grad school can breed this kind of insta-besties overfamiliarity, and it’s tough to deal with. I had something almost exactly like this happen with a new PhD student right when I was about to defend my thesis, with the added complication of her being female, me being male, and us having drunkenly hooked up.

      1. Yorick*

        Grad school really does foster this. I had a weird insta-bestie situation with a girl in my cohort who dropped out after one year. Coincidentally, she is now in Jane’s cohort! (not Petunia)

        1. bean*

          Seconding (thirding? fourth-ing?) the comments above that Jane can contact the university counseling services and let them know she’s worried about Petunia and also feels ill-equipped to help her, and uncomfortable being the person Petunia is seeking out for help. I don’t think Jane needs to spend endless hours meeting with counselors on Petunia’s behalf and don’t think it’s Jane’s job to make sure Petunia gets services, etc., but I would imagine Jane would rest easier setting a firm boundary if she knows she’s alerted someone else (someone who is qualified to help) to her worry about Petunia (effectively doing a “hand off” of her concern, so someone else can do the worrying) and hopefully letting Petunia know there are resources available to her and how to avail herself of them, as she lets Petunia know she’s not in a position to be able to help her with this, wishes her the best, and recuses herself from the situation.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Tell Jane to match what is coming at her.
      Petunia insists upon calling, Jane should match that insistence with, “I lack the quals to be of help to you. Now . Shall I call the university hotline or will you call on your own?” If Petunia refuses to make that call then Jane should call herself and report what she is hearing. The fact that Jane has heard about her romantic/sex life kind of says to me that Jane is not nipping this one. She can say:

      “Oh, look at the time, gotta run.”
      “Petunia, my answer has not changed. You need to talk with people more qualified than me.”
      “Petunia, I cannot help you.”
      “Petunia, I really don’t know you and I don’t want to know what position you had sex in last night. That is personal and private, you need to keep that to yourself.”
      “Petunia, stop calling me, I cannot help you.”

      In ordinary relationships we would not say these things, in part because we wouldn’t need to say these things. However, when a person starts talking candidly they have open the door for a candid response in kind.

      Think of it this way, if you are being noisy and the person next to you wants you to be quiet what would your response be if they said, “STFU?” Conversely, what would your response be if they say, “Gee, I am really having a tough time getting through this material, can you dial it down a little?” We tend to respond on the same level as the person we are dealing with right?
      The Petunias of the world are not going to hear, “oh I am busy”, and automatically know that they are oversharing. Because the connection is not there. Jane will have to use a different set of words to get her point across. The current set is not working and probably won’t ever.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      I think the really key message is: I’m so sorry you’re having a hard time right now – I hope you get some support, you could try [crisis line – find a list of these at befrienders.org].

      Rather than try to justify or explain why she’s setting boundaries (chances are it won’t be understood or well received) she should just… have them. Don’t answer the phone. You say she reminds Petunia she’s busy. How? Is she texting in response to the call? Don’t. Just don’t answer. She needs to just BE busy, not keep saying it.

      It is okay to give someone appropriate resources and then kindly but firmly set boundaries. It is okay not to compassionately redirect them and to not be the only person out of however many billion who helps them.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Oh and when someone behaves like this, it is simply not possible to give them what they need. She literally couldn’t even if she tried – it’s a bit like trying to fill a black hole. The absolute kindest thing to do is redirect her to trained professionals.

  43. Fabulous*

    I am tasked today with converting a 60 slide PowerPoint into a Word document for handouts. Mentioned this to the office manager and she commented that it was a ridiculous thing to do, that the slides can just be printed out in handout form. She basically criticized my department and invalidated my work. Obviously yes slides can be printed, but you won’t be able to read everything on the slide or see any detail in the pictures because they’re so small. The presentation is basically a “how-to” on brand new software, so you kinda need to see the details. *Sigh*

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe your slides are peculiar, but I would say in general (maybe not in your specific situation), the office manager is correct. You can usually (again, maybe you have a weird situation) print slides from PowerPoint, and they should print just fine (not tiny). That said, her telling you it’s a ridiculous thing to do doesn’t really help, because you were tasked with it (wasn’t your choice). She should talk to whomever tasked you with it.

      1. Fabulous*

        When we print PowerPoints we usually do two slides per page front/back because they can get incredibly lengthy (like this one is 60 slides). But the text isn’t always readable and pictures would definitely not show up well because they’re screenshots of computer programs, with lots of little details. Some of the pics you can barely see on the computer screen as it is; they’d be completely useless printed as slides. As a Word doc, I can at least zoom in and highlight the areas that are talked about.

        Yes, it’s tedious work, but it really needs to be done – or give me the PowerPoints in the first place to put together! LOL

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes. It sounds as if you have a peculiar situation, where you basically have to redo the slides completely.

        2. Observer*

          Why can’t you print one per page? Yes, it’s lengthy, but that’s the nature of the situation.

          Also, if you ARE pulling it into word, there shouldn’t be a need to redo the slides – you can import it and then do what you need to do. Still a fair amount of work, but much less than redoing.

    2. Leah the (former) Admin*

      Right, you can dictate how many slides you want on a page, too – so the pictures wouldn’t be too small. And as a (former) admin, we hate seeing people waste time on stuff that we could do so much faster or easier.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Can you print them out from the View -> Notes Page of PowerPoint? You get a clear slide and can format it anyway you desire.

      1. Fabulous*

        The Note Pages are still too small to read on most of the slides. Plus you’re still only getting one slide per page, and when there’s 60+ slides, it’s just too much paper…

  44. CMDRBNA*

    Hey all,

    Any advice about how to deal with something I keep running into at work? I’m a small person and I’m tired of getting comments about my body type/perceived weight from coworkers. It’s not sexual harassment and it’s always female coworkers.

    I just started a new job where the other people in my department are both larger than I am and they seem to work comments about my size into conversation weirdly frequently. I purposefully don’t participate in any diet/exercise/weight talk at work, because I don’t like it and don’t want to talk about it, but it seems like even innocuous comments – like mentioning I was out of breath after going up the stairs – seems to trigger this weird need for them to comment on my size.

    Has anyone else dealt with this? This has happened at literally every place I’ve ever worked and I just want it to stop.

    1. Dennawe*

      Tell them, politely and firmly, that you don’t appreciate their comments and they’re making you uncomfortable. If they continue to make those comments, talk to your boss or HR.

      1. CMDRBNA*

        Dennawe, that’s good advice, but I don’t think I can really do that in this situation. They’re on my team and people I work with every day and I need to be on good terms with them. I have worked in offices where I was outright bullied by coworkers for my size, but they’re really nice people. I think this is just them projecting their own body issues onto me, but I just don’t want to constantly feel like I need to apologize for being the size that I happen to be.

        Usually just ignoring the comments and not engaging in any diet or food-related talk at work kind of squelches it, but I don’t want to spend the rest of my career dealing with this. I imagine it’s kind of like really tall people having to field comments about their height all the time.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          “Could we stop the constant commentary on my size? It’s getting weird.” You can say this kindly, but it really is a reasonable thing to say, even in a context where you need to be on good terms with people.

        2. Snark*

          You can soften it up as necessary, but anybody who’s inappropriate enough to repeatedly bring up a coworker’s body type at work is probably going to need a bit of frankness. It’s probably going to be awkward for a few days after you put your foot down. That’s okay. Sometimes, awkwardness needs to happen. If you make the request politely and directly, and follow it up with similarly polite reminders, and then treat them with exactly the same warmth and friendliness you always do, it’ll pass.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes — and there are no magic words here that will eliminate all possibilities of slight awkwardness. The choice is to take that on and get it addressed or to say nothing at all.

        3. LCL*

          It’s exactly like really tall people hearing comments about their height. You can take the professional, earnest approach. Like Snark suggested, those are all good suggestions.
          Or you can go more flippant, know your audience before you get carried away with this. ‘Oh, thanks for pointing out I’m not 6 feet tall, I’d forgotten.’ ‘You guessed my weight wrong, I really weigh 900 pounds.’

        4. Gaia*

          “I’m sorry, I really don’t like talking about this. Can we stop bringing it up?” And, if they try to continue or bring it up again “Like I said, this really makes me uncomfortable. Please stop.”

          Neither is rude and any sane person would get the hint after the first request. People are really weird about discussing things like size and height at work. I’m not sure where anyone got the idea it was acceptable.

    2. Snark*

      “I don’t appreciate comments about my body type, and I’d really appreciate if you stopped making comments of any kind about that.”

      “Please don’t talk about my body type anymore. I really don’t like it and it comes up weirdly often.”

      “Please stop making comments about my body type. This is really important to me and I feel like you’re ignoring my requests to stop.”

      “I need you to stop talking about my body. This is not okay.”

      1. Snark*

        My wife, who has a somewhat unusual body type, has another approach: batting it back at them. “Wow, Ms. Snark, you’re so tall!” “Mmm, and you have brown hair.” “Yes, and you are Caucasian.” “I am! And you have blue eyes!” She delivers it in an earnest, slightly impressed tone of voice, and it’s just friendly enough to take the edge off the sarcasm.

        1. CMDRBNA*

          It’s more like coworkers finding a way to work a comment into how small I am into conversations. I think their thinking is that it’s not an “insult” therefore it’s ok? I’m not really sure what their thinking is, I would never comment on someone’s body type.

          For example, if I’m eating a salad – “Oh, THAT’s why you’re so skinny!” If I’m eating a donut – “Well, you don’t have to worry about gaining weight!” (which isn’t true) If I’m out of breath – “Well, you don’t have to worry about going to the gym!”

          Stuff like that.

          1. Holly Flax*

            I get those same “compliments” and they make me so uncomfortable. For some of the more obnoxious ones like, “why are you eating a salad” or “DID YOU JUST EAT A WHOLE AVOCADO?? THAT’S SO MUCH FAT HOW ARE YOU SO SKINNY?” (this actually happened) I usually reply with “it makes me uncomfortable that you are so focused on what I am eating.” For the “that dress looks great on you, because you are so skinny” I kind of just take the “compliment” and internally roll my eyes.

            1. Gaia*

              I wish I could eat a whole avocado….

              …but I am absolutely rubbish at figuring out when they are ripe/not brown

          2. zora*

            You can even point that out, it might make you feel better about saying it.
            “I know you are being nice and you don’t mean anything by it, but it makes me uncomfortable when you say stuff about my size and my body. Can we please avoid that talk? Thank you!”

            You can say it with a friendly tone, not acting like your mad, but also as Snark says above, you have to accept that it will be a little awkward. But if they are really nice people, and it sounds like they are, they will get over it in a week or so and everyone will move on!

    3. Elisabeth*

      I wonder if this is a good place for Allison’s advice about pretending this a weird quirk of YOURS. (Even though in reality they’re being rude and intrusive – it’s just as obnoxious to harp on someone’s small size as someone’s large size).

      For instance, if the body talk comes up, can you say, “Hey guys, do you mind if we hold off on the body/food talk? It kind of stresses me out.”

    4. nep*

      You do not have to live with this. This is unacceptable. You would not be the least bit out of line politely telling people you’d like this to stop. You say you need to remain on good terms with these colleagues — but at what cost? And do you think they would no longer be on good terms with you if you said something?
      I worked with a young man who is just under 7 feet tall. I used to cringe when colleagues or people coming to our establishment would start right in about his height, thinking nothing of it.

  45. Dennawe*

    A friend of mine has been ordered to pay some of her unemployment back because during a phone interview, she was asked if she could accept work in a city that’s a bit of a commute even by car from where she lives with a start time of 7:00 am, and she says that she wasn’t sure if she could get there on time since she relies on the bus, and they cited her not having “reliable transportation” as the reason. This wouldn’t be an issue for her with jobs that were closer to her. Is there anything she can do to fight it? I understand them making her pay it back if she just didn’t want to wake up early, but it seems so atrociously terrible that being unable to afford a car is seen as her fault.

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      Where are you located? I can’t speak for other jurisdictions, but if you’re in Canada, get the friend to call her Member of Parliament, explain the situation, and see what can be done about it. I had to do that once with an issue regarding UI. They docked me three days because I’d gone to another city for three days to look for work, and it got sorted really fast once my MP became involved.

        2. Liane*

          Your friend should call their district’s state legislator’s local office. They will have staffers who help constituents with problems like this. I have had success with UI and other agencies in a couple different states after calling a state legislator. (A supervisor at one state’s UI agency called me on a Saturday (!) to tell me she was mailing my back benefits check that day)
          In this case, if there’s an appeals process, she should probably try that first.

        3. Agile Phalanges*

          I am in Oregon, and have only dealt with UE from the employer side, but there is an appeals process. Your friend should follow their process, but it’s my understanding that they LOVE to deny claims on the front end, and often they are solved in the employee’s favor through the appeals process. I believe they also can’t ask for that repayment to happen once she requests an appeal, and it will stop any interest from accruing, etc., but don’t hold me to that. IANAL or an employment office employee.

    3. persimmon*

      Your friend should take a close look at the notice she received. There will be information there about how to appeal the decision, and your friend should do that (ASAP, because deadlines are short). Then there will be a hearing scheduled in front of an administrative law judge. It’s very typical for people to represent themselves at UI hearings and the ALJs know how to guide you through the process which is relatively easy as these things go. ALJs are often more sympathetic than the front-line unemployment staff, so it’s definitely worth the appeal especially if the money is significant.

      1. persimmon*

        Also I did a quick search and this looks helpful (provided by the state govt): http://www.oregon.gov/oah/docs/ui_hearing_info_uipub91_0106.pdf
        Also some videos here: http://www.oregon.gov/oah/Pages/UI_Publications2.aspx
        I should say that I worked in a legal aid office where we sometimes took unemployment cases (so it may be worth a call your local legal aid office, findable at oregonlawhelp.org), but unless it was within grant priorities we mostly would give some quick advice including handouts like the above.

    4. ughhhh*

      I received 2 weeks of unemployment in 2013. I was laid off on 8/31 and I had a new job by 9/14 – the new job was twice as good as my old job, paid practically double, and was contractor to permanent (so for a while, I had to buy my benefits through my company’s temp employment agency and didn’t get paid days off, but I did get buckets of overtime pay.)

      I signed up for unemployment (obviously not knowing I’d land a great job so quickly) and hit the ground running job searching. I reported all of the job search attempts to the unemployment dept like I was supposed to.

      6 weeks after I started at my new job, 6 weeks after I cancelled my unemployment and confirmed with them that I’d found a new job very quickly, 6 weeks after i stopped receiving payments from them, I got a letter that to fulfill my unemployment requirements from 8/31-9/14, I needed to attend a certain amount of job search classes through some 3rd party adult education thing that the unemployment office partnered with.

      I called to say, “Hi, I was only unemployed for 2 weeks, so I can’t take these classes. I have a new job and can’t take time off.” They said, “You have to go to them or you can’t get unemployment anymore.” I said, “I haven’t gotten unemployment for 6 weeks. I only got it for 2. I already have a job.” They said, “it doesn’t matter. You have to pay it back in full if you don’t take these classes.” I said, “so I have to take 3 days off of work, 3 days where I will not be paid, to take classes in how to job search, when i already have a job and am NOT CURRENTLY ON UNEMPLOYMENT?” and they said, “yes, you will have to pay it back if you don’t take unpaid days off of work to come to the job center.” And I said, “you hear yourself right now, right? You hear how crazy that is that I have to take 3 unpaid days off of work and RISK LOSING MY NEW JOB FOR BEING OUT OF OFFICE WITHOUT BEING ELIGIBLE FOR TIME OFF YET to take classes in how to get a job, so I’m eligible for the unemployment you paid me in the past but no longer receive?” and they said “yes and we will ensure you pay back the entire amount of your unemployment from 8/31-9/14 if you don’t take these classes.”

      Three months later after probably 12 threatening letters later, approximately 97 total hours on the phone with about 43 increasingly less helpful people later, and I don’t even know how it happened, but they dropped it. I wanted to send them a bill for $9,000 (10x the amt I made from unemployment in the first place) for wasting my time. This was in the great state of Massachusetts.

      1. Bea W*

        That’s stupid awful. You probably have spoken to everyone imaginable about this, but if you haven’t yet, complain in detail about this to your local MA gov reps. That is the stupidest poop ever!

    5. Kinsley M.*

      I’m curious as to how the UI office even knows she told a phone interview about the bus? Was a UI examiner conducting the interview?

      I don’t know the exact verbiage of Oregon’s UI laws, but all states I’ve ever worked with say you have to be “ready, willing, and able” to accept work. Not having transportation to the job would not satisfy the “able” qualification. I’d still appeal the ruling, but I’m definitely not surprised by it.

  46. CatCat*

    Legal professionals (and anyone else with an interest in courts), have you heard of Judge Posner’s new book, “Reforming the Federal Judiciary: My Former Court Needs to Overhaul Its Staff Attorney Program and Begin Televising Its Oral Arguments”? Apparently the chief judge of the 7th Circuit reported Posner for an ethics violation for some content in the book.

    I’m intrigued, I admit, in part because one reviewer described it as “batshit crazy.” The whole thing sounds like a soap opera and like material for an especially dramatic workplace tale that could end up on AAM. From the review on CA3blog:

    “At its heart, this book is a baffling, disjointed blow-by-blow of Posner’s many recent battles with Seventh Circuit Chief Judge Diane Wood, the quite-unintentional hero of the tale.

    The primary battle arose from Posner’s demand that he be allowed to re-write all his circuit’s staff attorneys’ memos and draft opinions before they went to his fellow judges. This is a ludicrous idea. Posner thought it ‘uncontroversial’ and he was ‘surprised’ when it was met with first silence, then uniform rejection. When Wood told him so, Posner ‘angrily’ threatened to reveal staff counsel work product he deemed not good enough. When he was told that doing so would violate the judicial code of conduct, he resigned, and now he has self-published everything — memos and drafts by staff counsel peppered with his acid edits, emails between the judges, the whole trainwreck.”

    O_O

    1. Naruto*

      Do you have a link?

      I’ve heard of it but haven’t read it. It sounds interesting.

      If they’re his law clerks or his opinions that he’s responsible for, then frankly he isn’t wrong that he should get to rewrite them however he wants before circulating to the other judges.

      1. CatCat*

        Here’s article to the ABA Journal article about it: “Is Posner’s ‘baffling’ book an ethics breach? Chief judge objects to release of internal memos”
        http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/is_posners_book_an_ethics_violation_chief_judge_objects_to_re

        Here’s a link to CA3blog’s review: “Posner’s new book is bananas, but you might want it anyway” http://ca3blog.com/judges/posners-new-book-is-bananas-but-you-might-want-it-anyway/

        And here’s a link to where you can buy the book on Amazon:
        https://www.amazon.com/Reforming-Federal-Judiciary-Televising-Arguments/dp/1976014794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505672571&sr=8-1&keywords=posner+reforming

      2. CatCat*

        Yeah, I’m not sure how it’s structured. From other articles, I think they may be a central staff pool of attorneys for the court (not staff to his chambers in particular) and the attorneys’ draft opinions are voted on by a panel of judges.

    3. fposte*

      Oooh, this sounds delicious. I’m not in the field, but I’m fascinated by these kinds of internal meltdowns.

  47. esra (also a Canadian)*

    Ugh I need to ask for a raise and ask when bonuses are. I have a one-one with my boss coming up and am trying to think of a better way to put it than:
    “Hi, Boss, I’m hoping we could talk about the compensation increase you’d mentioned when I got promoted to Current More Impressive Title earlier this year. (Insert many achievements here).”

    I can’t think of how to also ask about the bonus. No one on sales and marketing has been here for a full year to even know when they happen -_-

    1. Reba*

      Maybe there’s more context that’s making this conversation more fraught for you, but … I don’t see what’s wrong with what you have written.

      As for how to ask about the bonus, same thing: “What about bonuses, can we talk about that?”

  48. Rookie Manager*

    Met my new director this week for the first time, part of the reason was to discuss budgets. I asked to talk about salaries and we upped a couple of ny team members then I said; “Don’t want to be greedy but can we talk about mine?” She said; “Hmmm that doesn’t look right, increase it to x.”

    Not confirmed till the board approve it next week but I wish getting a pay rise was always so easy!! Also can’t wait to pass the payrise news onto my team.

  49. Velvet Goldberg*

    I’ve got a doozy for you all. I have recently learned that the director of my division was a colleague of a former in-law. I don’t report to her directly, but I definitely fall solidly under her purview. It would appear my former in law did not make a great impression on my new boss. (I am not surprised). It is beyond crazy and I know eventually I will put my foot in my mouth.

    1. CAA*

      I’m not following why this is beyond crazy and/or likely to lead to you putting your foot in your mouth. Do you and your former in-law share the same unusual last name so that the director might ask about it? If not, then it seems pretty unlikely she’d even know you used to be related to this person she didn’t work well with.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      She should be professional about it, if she figures out the connection.

      I have handled mention of former family members by simply nodding and saying, “ohhh…” then appearing to absent-mindly drift into Unrelated Topic. Mine went the opposite direction though “Bob is so great to work with and such a good egg.” Yeah, okay, whatevs.

  50. Naruto*

    Any tips on powering through when you hate your job and really, really hate a big long-term project that you’re working on that takes up most of your time? Assume that said project very much stresses you out to the point that you want to crawl under your desk and hide (and maybe cry), and you’re already actively job searching. And you can’t get more resources to help out with said project.

    I’m finding it really hard to get stuff done under these circumstances — which, of course, just makes everything worse.

      1. Naruto*

        Can you explain? Like, mechanically or emotionally or whatever, how do I actually use that to get stuff done when I really don’t want to?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, I have a hard time feeling motivation to do something I hate. If I know that powering through will eventually get me to something I can look forward to, that helps me. I guess it doesn’t help you? If you hate the task you have to do and your job in general, you should certainly be looking for a different job in the near future.

    2. medium of ballpoint*

      I’ve always liked the Pomodoro technique. On good days I could work for a couple of hours on Most Hated Project and on really bad days I could only give it five minutes at a stretch. But the timers kept me working and it was helpful to know when a break was coming up. And it made the project much less overwhelming, which helped a lot. Good luck!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      To me self-care is critical. We can’t help the trash that gets dumped in our laps. But we can chose to eat good foods, hydrate and take walks. And we can chose to follow a sleep schedule. This carried me through so much.

  51. Justin*

    A month or so ago, I mentioned that I was up for an internal promotion. People said, take it seriously. I did.

    I got it.

    7ish percent raise (I’ve only been here 8 months), more responsibilities (but more interesting ones), starting in the next pay period (first week of Oct).

    So thanks for the help, and I’m very excited.

  52. Queen of Cans & Jars*

    I have an employee who’s in an entry level leadership position who is currently out on medical leave due to uncontrolled bi polar disorder. She is posting rude comments about the company and coworkers to Facebook, and has sent a couple of texts directly to staff. What, if anything, can I do about this?

    1. it doesn't give me a rosy world view it actually is green*

      If she gets medical leave, are there any procedures in place for how she behaves on it or how you should treat her while she’s on it? Your HR or Accommodation people might be able to give you a plan since it seems like they’re already aware of her issues.

      1. Queen of cans & jars*

        I am HR. :). We actually don’t have a written policy because the attitude of the rest of the team is that what someone does/says outside of work is not our business (which is obviously not the most effective way to deal with it). Since she’s on leave, do I contact her to tell her she needs to stop, or wait until she comes back? She’s supposed to be back Monday, but I think that’s pretty unlikely.

        1. CMDRBNA*

          Hmm. I mean, I think in this case this is a pretty strong argument that your organization actually does need a social media policy.

          I actually just got done reading an article about people who had job offers yanked after posting something on social media – stuff like “ugh dreading my new job” or the like.

          Screenshot whatever you found, and when she returns, maybe you could just sit down with her, show her the screenshots or printouts, and just ask her what’s going on. I wouldn’t want to go down the rabbit hole of monitoring employees’ social media, but SHE is the one crossing a line by posting about the company.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Echoing, definitely get screenshots or printouts. We had a person do similar stuff. We did not get the screenshots. sigh.

    2. CMDRBNA*

      Her bipolar disorder and her posting of rude comments about the company and coworkers on Facebook/sending texts are two separate things, so I would treat them as two separate things. Does your company have a social media use policy or guidelines in the employee handbook?

      I mean, I would say to treat them like you would the same behavior from any other member of staff. It’s not like she’s said she needs medical accommodation that includes being allowed to post derogatory stuff online about the company.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        It’s quite possible they’re related. Some hypo/manic episodes include poor judgement and poor emotional regulation and could result in behavior like this. I agree that handling it like you would with any other employee is a good idea, though.

        1. CMDRBNA*

          I’m not saying the behavior and her disorder aren’t related (I have a sibling and several family members with bi-polar who have done similar things during manic episodes, so I’m familiar), I’m saying that as far as her workplace is concerned her having bipolar disorder and her posting is unrelated and as her manager I wouldn’t assume that her bipolar disorder is causing her to do this. That’s doing the employee a disservice as well.

          There are reasonable accommodations you can ask for for bipolar disorder. I have a mental illness and I need accommodations for it too, like being able to take time off for therapy or work from home on bad days. But this isn’t one of those.

    3. Alice*

      If you’re in the US, there’s not much you can do about what she’s posting if its realated to working conditions, or the company. that’s protected speech by the National Labor relations board. That said, you can still work with HR to communicate to her that the rants are likely damaging her professoinal reputation.
      While she’s out on leave, you can also request that she not communicate with employees (unless they’re also her friends, of course). Many companies will cut off access to internal networks/emails while employees are out on LOA. I’d discuss the situation with your HR group.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        This is all happening entirely on social media, not on any internal systems. We’re a production facility, and this particular person does not have any company issued technology.

  53. AndersonDarling*

    I have to work with a manager that…lies. Big things, little things, every conversation I have with her has a lie in it. It’s like working with a 5 year old that just learned about what lying is and wants try it out all the time.
    She lied to cover up a regulatory issue. She lied about what report she was reading. She lied about being in a meeting that I was in and she wasn’t. It’s beyond confusion or misinterpretation, her pants are always on fire.
    I’ve been sitting back and hoping she will get herself into enough trouble to be fired, but I’m wondering if I should say something to my boss or to the Pants on Fire Manager’s boss. It’s annoying, but I generally work around the manager, so it really isn’t interfering with my work.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If she’s not your manager, I’d definitely say something to my own manager! Especially when it’s about regulatory issues, or whatever affects what work you’re doing, or could affect the company in a major way. Just remember to stick to the most verifiable, objective lies, and leave out ones like what she was reading, because that’s more of a she-said-she-said kind of thing. Best thing to bring to your boss’s attention would be if this manager lies in an email.

      If nothing else, you want your boss to know to watch how much she relies on the information she gets from Miss Pantalones en Fuego.

    2. it doesn't give me a rosy world view it actually is green*

      Write down the stuff you can prove, or that affects you. Not as an obsession, just to keep track of the truth for your own sake. Those little lies can add up over time and give everyone else a false view of how things are going.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        As a friend who works at a law firm says, “Document, document, document.”

        If somebody lies this much, you want to have a record for if it ever comes back to you. My personal experience is that liars are more likely to be quickly identified by those who are at or below their level, and it can take longer for those above them to notice. (If ever.)

        I worked for a woman who if she told me the sky was blue, I would be inclined to go to the window just to check it out.

  54. Master Bean Counter*

    Okay y’all is this as weird as I think it is?

    I got contacted by a recruiter about a position that advertised “HIGHLY competitive” compensation. Had a interesting phone interview with them. This interview asked for a desired hourly rate for a job that should be exempt and salaried. So I gave them a very high annual figure. I was really hoping to scare them away or make it really worth my time.
    The owner of the company schedules a follow up phone interview. I’m shocked, but figure he wasn’t sacred away with my price tag, this might be worth it after all. Now this owner does most of the function I am supposed to take over, so he should know this job and what he wants to see from the person taking the position.
    The interview went like this:
    Question 1: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 2: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 3: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 4: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 5: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 6: Tell me what you are good at
    Question 7: Tell me a weakness
    Question 8: Tell me a weakness
    Question 9: Tell me a weakness
    Question 10: Tell me a weakness
    Question 11: Tell me a weakness
    Question 12: Tell me a weakness
    Question 13: What are the full names of your past four supervisors and how would they rate you on scale of 1-10 and why.
    I’m emailing the recruiter this morning and telling them that I’m not interested at all.

    1. it doesn't give me a rosy world view it actually is green*

      That’s… pretty weird. I wouldn’t feel bad about declining.

    2. Samata*

      Sounds like a bad version of a rolling why type interview….I’d sometimes interview folks and ask about a project they did well on and continue to ask “anything else?” in a way to get more information and concrete examples…but not the exact same question over and over. That’s just so…weird.

      And Q13? What the serious F is that?

    3. nep*

      Are you serious? Do you mean that after you told what you’re good at once, the person asked again — and that repeated itself five times? Crazy.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        My only regret is not stopping the phone interview. At some point I’m going to realize it’s not worth my time just to see how it plays out.

  55. Confused and Underpaid*

    I started at my new job a couple of months ago and so far I am really liking it. However, I believe I am being paid incorrectly.

    I am a salaried, non-exempt employee at a small non-profit but I am not getting overtime. I recently sat down with the ED who handles payroll and my status and she, as expected, told me I was wrong about the law. I did my research prior to this with the assumption that she would do that and gave the line that Allison had suggested a few years back (similar to “We’re actually required by federal law to pay overtime to people in my job category. I can work the overtime if you want me to, but the company is required to pay for it.”) However, she is still arguing that because I am not hourly, I do not get overtime. Because flex time is so unclear and not counted by hours but by how the office “feels” about it, I don’t feel like its fair for me to not be paid for the hours that I work overtime when I don’t get to take them off.

    I countered and said that, while rare, there are salaried non-exempt employees and just because they are not hourly
    does not mean they are not entitled to overtime. She ended by saying she was going to check with the payroll company, a pro bono law group that our organizations works with and the human resources professionals on our board of directors but I’m still unsure on how this will play out.

    Overall, it was a light-hearted conversation and there wasn’t any animosity or bad feelings. However, I still feel like this wrong and needs to be fixed.

    As stated, I have just been in this position for a few months so I’m not sure if she will actually go to those she said she will.

    How can I advocate for myself more in this situation? Should I provide more details, like print-outs? I really don’t want to file a complaint as I need this job.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Salaried non-exempt isn’t even rare; it’s common! If she really consults with the sources she says she’ll consult with, they should straighten her out. I’d give it three to four weeks, and then if she hasn’t brought it up again, check back in. You can say something like, “I know you were looking into this and I wanted to check where we stand, because I do think we can get into a lot of trouble over this.”

        1. Confused and Underpaid*

          They think non-exempt means I’m entitled to flex time, but I barely get flex time. If I work three hours at an event or meeting at night, I can come in an hour or so late the next day but I can’t count my overtime by hours since I’m salaried

          It doesn’t make sense and they recognize that, but they are resistant to clarifying the “policy”

    3. Alice*

      I’d bring her the research you’ve done on, or go to DOL.GOV and print out the definitions of exempt, non-exempt and salaried non-exempt (i beleive they’re out there). Give it until the next pay period, not more than 2, before you address it with her, and if you don’t get anywhere, go to her boss, and then an attorney.

  56. MuseumMusings*

    I’m having trouble figuring out if one of my friends (who I also work with) is just super busy and can’t hang out or if she’s trying to slow fade our friendship into work-only acquaintanceship. I’ve been having anxiety problems all year and have cried in a few interactions, so I’m sure it’s been awkward for her. She’s also said she’s the type of person who would eat broken glass rather than critique someone to their face and doesn’t like to eat lunch, so I have no idea if a lack of lunch invitations are her trying to fade out or just not being hungry.

    So I just sent her a message explaining what was going on, apologizing, and then setting the ball firmly in her court for reaching out (saying I know she has a busy schedule, so I hope that gives her an out). If the case is that she wants a slow fade, I’ll let her do that because she’s a wonderful person and I’d feel awkward if I was trying to slow fade someone out who worked with me every day.

    I should have done this like two months ago, but at least I’m doing it now.

    On the other hand, how do you tell if someone is naturally an introvert vs. someone trying to change the boundaries on your relationship? I know there’s been some questions on how to reset boundaries, but how can you tell if you’re breaking them? I’d hate to be that person :/

    1. CMDRBNA*

      Hey MuseumMusings, that’s a tough position to be in. As an introvert with some mental health issues, I feel you!
      I also just went through a similar situation with a now ex-friend who suddenly became too busy to ever do anything together, and I chose to let that relationship end.

      The thing is, you often can’t tell, especially when it’s someone who can’t/won’t Use Their Words when something is bothering them (and given your friend saying she can’t ‘critique someone to their face,’ that’s a distinct possibility). The best advice I can give you is to pay attention to what people do, versus what they say.

      People who want to spend time with you or maintain a relationship with you will find a way to do that. It’s quite possible this person needs you to be a small-dose friend, for whatever reason, or they don’t like eating lunch, or they’re doing something else on their lunch hour, or a million other explanations.

      I think if you are reaching out to someone over and over and getting rebuffed over and over, you should give yourself permission to stop putting effort towards them. I think you’re handling it great both by putting the ball in her court and giving her a graceful out.

    2. Reba*

      I agree, I think you’re doing it right.

      I’ve been in a similar situation. It’s hard but I think it’s important to *truly* let the ball be in her court. Let it go. Try to redirect your thoughts when you worry about or are rethinking/analyzing your interactions.

      In my case, the friendship did end. My feelings were hurt and I was just straight up sad. But I let the person’s actions be my answer–they weren’t into it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t always tell if a person is introverted, setting boundaries and so on.

      The best thing you can do is take people at their word. If they say “maybe” then that means maybe. Let it go at that, up to them to come back and firm things up.

      Expect people to mean what they say and say what they mean.

      I have a relative who is fond of speaking in an ambiguous manner. So in a practical, no nonsense voice, I will ask, “Well do you mean A or B, I could not tell from what you just said.” Relative knows they have to say what they mean and mean what they say.

      Most people are less of a problem than Relative though. If your coworker does not want to go to lunch with you, reassure yourself that other nice things will happen in your day/week and look for those nice things. Focus on other things. Many times in life we never hear the rest of the story and we just don’t know. It’s okay not to know.

    4. Snarl Furillo*

      My rule is that I ask people to spend time with me 3 times, then stop. I usually know after 2 invites and let it go, but the rule is 3 to account for people who keep insisting we’ll get together or ask me to do something that I miss or whatever.

      It sounds like she maybe wants less interaction right now for whatever reason, but I don’t think you should worry about figuring out what you did or if you cried too much or if you are a boundary-stalker or whatever. Sometimes friendships end and it’s awkward for a few weeks before being over. That’s all.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Why would being an introvert change anything? I ask because it sounds slightly like that would mean you should make all the effort which isn’t the case.

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        I know a few people who will explain not wanting to socialize by identifying themselves as introverts. It’s meant to signal that I shouldn’t take it personally (that is, they’re trying to signal that it isn’t that they don’t like me, it’s that they don’t want to socialize with anyone). In my case, when someone tells me that, I generally quit asking. It does feel personal, and having to convince myself that it isn’t tends to feel like more emotional work than I want to do.

  57. Adjunct Gal*

    I had taken a leap of faith in my strong desire to change careers, and I was really enjoying my new full-time job learning and doing new tasks. Unfortunately, for financial reasons, I was let go….after 3 months.

    I don’t want to go back to my old career as I really hated it. I want to keep on in the same path I started on, but 3 months on a resume? How would I address it in my cover letter? I will be getting good recs from my employers as they felt really bad about it, but I am unsure how to proceed.

    1. JN*

      I know there’s advice against listing short-term jobs, but since you want to stay in this field, I’d say you should include this job on your resume, especially since you’ve been promised good references from this employer and the end of the job wasn’t something you could control.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Definitely keep this one on your resume since you plan to stay in the field, especially since they will be good references for you! I’m sorry that happened, but hopefully you can find something else soon!

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Aw no, I’m sorry. I think it’s fine to put this on because it was due to circumstance not performance and they are going to be references.

  58. it doesn't give me a rosy world view it actually is green*

    I have to wear colored glasses for prescription reasons. They’re even pink- that just happens to be the most effective color for the amount of light I need blocked. The only comments I hear about them are positive- but those same people tend to assume I’m wearing them as a fashion-statement. So now I’m self conscious that the people who don’t say anything are assuming the same thing, that I’m wearing them for fun, but they don’t see that as a positive or professional. Any advice on how to talk about this or bring it up?

    1. LCL*

      Don’t bring it up. You don’t have to explain your medical needs to anyone, unless you are asking for something specific to accommodate some condition.

    2. PB*

      I personally wouldn’t worry about it too much. Even if they assume you’re wearing it as a fashion statement, that doesn’t necessarily make it unprofessional. Lots of style choices can still be professional. That said, if you’re worried about it, next time someone comments on it, you can let them know it’s for a medical reason (if you’re comfortable doing so). Word will likely get around after you’ve mentioned it a few times.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s nobody’s business, and yet I can’t help remembering someone I worked with who wore yellow-tinted glasses and was called “old yella eyes” by some of his grumpier staff. I knew they were for dyslexia because I knew his family, but I guess he never told anyone at work. So, sadly, it might become a “thing” behind your back. If that would bother you, I’d mention it to a few people when they comment on them (“Oh, thanks. I actually need colored lenses because of my Condition, but I guess they’re kind of fun too!”) and let the word make its way around, as it does.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I…would literally not care. If I saw pink lenses, I might say they’re pretty (they are!), but you don’t have to say anything except “Thanks!”

      Unless you’re wearing the pink lenses in 1970s-era Elton John glasses with huge glittery curlicue frames, I doubt they are in any way unprofessional. (And even then that would be mega-cool.)

  59. special snowflake*

    My boss has his heart set on a postcard that has pictures of kids and diversity and happy faces….all at once
    He does not understand that a) we have less than 500 pictures from the entire year, and that b) most of those photos are lousy. So he keeps telling me we have more photos why aren’t I pulling those… and not liking the rather blunt – because they suck and the designer won’t use them anyways.
    Why I am pulling these instead of our marketing team is a disaster of another rant….
    Any suggestions for explaining in other phrasing why the limited stock of photos we have is going to have to be enough?

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Demonstrate. Pull several and demonstrate the lousy quality along with the comments from the designer on how they cannot be used.

    2. zora*

      Send him literally all of the 500 pictures and let him see them for himself.

      Seriously.

      He is not going to hear it. I have worked with those people. Give him access to a folder with all of the pictures, and tell him he can pick the photos if he wants to. Then whatever he picks, send them to the designer and let the designer say that she won’t use them.

      Or just print the postcard with the bad pictures. … If you are in a nonprofit (and I’m guessing you are), don’t take all of this on. You need to give yourself a break sometimes and not try to fix every problem. Maybe I’m projecting based on my experiences, but that’s my advice. ;o)

      1. Ghost Town*

        This. All day. He needs to see it for himself. I’m also willing to bet that there will be a (singular) picture that has the kids, diversity, and happy faces, but is absolute crap quality that he’ll want to use. Despite the blurriness or half-closed eyes or weird lighting. He needs to see the limited options or the printed proof with bad picture as poor representation of the organization.

        1. zora*

          Exactly. There comes a point sometimes where you just have to let people make their own mistakes before they will learn. They won’t listen to ANYONE who tells them, they have to see it for themselves and experience the consequences. (Like the board meeting after the 100,000 piece mailing goes out when the board members all freak out because the mailing looks like crap.)

          Some people you just can’t save from themselves.

          1. Ghost Town*

            This can be so hard to put into action, esp. when you do have a horse in the race (at least tangentially). But still true.

            1. zora*

              Ugh, you are so right. I am a high achiever type so it was really hard the first several times I had to let something be bad because of people above my paygrade. But it is an important muscle to exercise, because if you take everything on yourself and need to make everything awesome all the time, you will burn yourself out in short order and be useless.

      2. Special Snowflake*

        Thank you all! You’re right on the nonprofit part – I’ll give this a shot. He’s generally easy going and believes me when I say we can’t make something happen so I’m not sure what the insistence is here!

  60. Free Meerkats*

    Realistically, I’m currently 5 years out from retirement. I’m looking at a promotion to management early next year when the current Program Manager retires. Between Social Security, Deferred Comp, and my pension, money shouldn’t be a problem, but I don’t want to sit around and molder. But I also don’t want to be a Wal*Mart greeter. Because I truly enjoy long-distance driving, the open road really is my happy place, I’m considering getting a CDL and freelancing for a couple of Drive Away companies. Delivering trucks, buses, RVs and the like around the country.

    Have you looked at this? Do you have plans for retirement?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I haven’t looked at a CDL, but I might consider it. I’ll probably volunteer more when I retire, but I also don’t have a lot of trouble with leisure time. I plan on traveling a lot, and when I have down time I work on crosswords or websites or things like that, that I can do anywhere. I could go back to teaching part time or as a substitute, or volunteering with the local volunteer fire department. But that’s at least 10 years off for me, maybe more like 15, depending.

      Pensions are harder and harder to come by now. I’m looking at the retirement planners as if Social Security won’t be there for us, and if it is, great.

    2. wcgreen*

      Workamping–horrible name for jobs done while living in a RV. Warehouse work for the holidays, farm work, campground hosts for both park and commercial campgrounds. Husband and I build churches and schools for our synod (minimum wage, but it covers expenses, and we get free utilities and campsite).

      Searching on that term might find more options.

    3. katamia*

      I don’t expect Social Security to be there by the time I’m old enough for it and I’ll probably never have a job that offers me a pension, so I’ll probably want to move into self-employment/some sort of consulting (assuming my fiction writing career hasn’t taken off, lol of course it won’t). Maybe tutoring or editing. The biggest thing for me would be that I would get to control my time/wardrobe, not someone else.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      My retirement is 20 years away. So I often dream about finding ways to travel. And possibly getting our place up to mini-farm status again. With a mini-farm I can sell things at the local farmers market and make a little bingo money.

    5. jmm*

      I read somewhere that during certain periods of the year, rental car companies hire drivers to drive rental cars to different parts of the country (I’m guessing like maybe moving more cars to Florida during summer months for vacationers, etc.). With your love of the open road, that might be a neat short-term job.
      Similar scenarios —
      https://www.carsdirect.com/car-buying/how-to-become-a-car-transport-driver
      https://skift.com/2013/12/03/car-rental-and-motorhome-companies-offer-free-one-way-driveaways/

      1. Chaordic One*

        I met someone who is now 82 and she works for an auto dealer that is part of a chain of auto dealers. She works part-time, but steadily, driving different cars (new and used) between the dealerships. I guess they do a lot of trading. The distance between dealerships is about 150 miles and it takes about 2 and a half hours to drive between towns. Sometimes she’ll drive a large SUV or pickup truck and pull a trailer with a car on the trailer.

    6. Girasol*

      I retired a year ago. The company had gradually reduced my responsibilities until I was in effect already moldering. I thought perhaps my experience was unique but have since met a number of very savvy early retirees who were similarly pushed out of other companies and put it down to their company’s attitude on aging. We are all active in pretty physical volunteer work: trail maintenance, city landscaping, habitat restoration. Most of us hike, bike, and backpack in free time. There are so many exciting volunteer opportunities here that it’s hard to choose: Habitat for Humanity, the non-profit that gets kids on bicycles, the police auxiliary helping out on the city greenbelt, and at least five more wildland maintenance organizations (and those are just the choices that interest me). They don’t need just manual labor; they need crew leads, organizers, data analysts, program leads, IT staff… If you can afford it, you can trade money for meaning and be more relevant outside work than in. Or if you do want to get paid, there’s always entrepreneurship. Not that staying on your job isn’t a great choice too, but you should know your options.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Really look at this carefully. In my state drivers get ticketed for a problem with the vehicle’s condition, meaning on their personal licenses. Some times the company pays the ticket and repairs the vehicle and sometimes not.
      The driver ends up paying on a ticket for a problem that he cannot fix himself. If the problem does not get fixed he gets ticketed again.

      I have often wondered about escort vehicles for big loads. I see they are fairly well paid. That might be a bit better than a big rig.

  61. anony-mouse for this one*

    It the time of year where I have to deal with incompetent co-worker and I need some advice. It’s going to be long, but hang in there and help me with some co-worker management techniques. I’ve tried meditating before our meetings to help me calm down and not replying immediately to emails but I need to figure out a better way to look at things more objectively….so here goes.

    Over about a 6 week period each fall I have to work with a co-worker to line up schedules for the next year. We both conduct training and need to coordinate our calendar and make a company wide announcements. She often “forgets” to do mundane tasks or does things she isn’t supposed to do saying “oh, I forgot we decided I wasn’t going to do that”. In addition to just personality conflicts – she is a work diverter and very ego-driven. She’s the type who if you say “ugh, I”m having difficulty with X” she will reply with “I have never had a problem doing X…or Y or Z for that matter, sorry I can’t help”

    It often ends up in duplicate work or in work not being done. The only pattern I can pin down is that she does or doesn’t do the things she doesn’t like. So if she wanted to do something, but our boss says I should do it – she does it. If she is assigned something she doesn’t think of she “forgets”.

    I am trying to not lose my cool with her, as I have tended to do in the past. Because at this point everything she does annoys me. I ask her for a clean version of her calendar because my job is to merge our schedules – and she sends me a handmade calendar in word with ALL HER LIFE EVENTS on it for me to sort through. Then after hours send me another email saying “I just realized I doubled up a date and there are 2 February 16th” so every single date from then until July is OFF. I said it was no big deal, because I don’t think it is. But on top of everything else it makes me want to bang my head off a wall.

    I’ve talked to our boss, who also happens to be my mentor, for ways to get over my struggles and how to manager her better and my boss keeps telling me I need to understand she’s young. But she’s 32 and been here 3 years. And that’s the age I was when I started and I feel like much more competence was expected from me.

    Any helpful hints on how to manage? This is also important because barring so unforeseen circumstance the succession plan has me taking over as her supervisor in about 13 months.

    Thanks for reading and HELP!

    1. it doesn't give me a rosy world view it actually is green*

      When you take over as a supervisor, sounds like time for a Performance Improvement Plan. Your manager… I don’ even know. That’s not young, that’s just “never facing consequences”. Does she get any discipline as the issues come up, that you know of?

      1. anony-mouse for this one*

        I keep thinking this too. And she is only 6 years younger than me…I am always like “whaaaaa????????????”

        She had never had discipline that I am aware of. Our boss doesn’t really have much direct contact with her on a project level. She manages our projects through me because she wants me to take on more of a leadership role. She has had a few conversations about pushing a lot of her work off to interns and not creating her own work product, which is one of our core functions.

        And I don’t tell boss every instance, because once she told me I was coming across petty and nit-picky and that I needed to understand she was still learning professional norms.

        This is quite literally the only negative of my job. I got fed up last week at the calendar thing and told my boss I just have to accept that this 6 week window is always going to be stressful for me. My boss said I needed to be more empathetic & not everyone is me. Which I think was some weird backhanded compliment about my work ethic.

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          In this case, I think you have a boss problem, not so much a coworker problem (as annoying as she sounds). Your manager is, as Alison often says, refusing to manage this woman, and seems to be okay with you being miserable in order to tip-toe around someone who is running roughshod over you. Not cool. How did she end up as your mentor?

          1. anony-mouse for this one*

            I only thought about this for a few minutes, but she became my mentor because she is in the Director level position that I want to be in and she worked her way up from a stenographer get there (she has been with the company quite awhile). And she knows how to get people to listen to her when it comes to the business side of things – how to get to the point by being very firm and matter of fact.

            Outside of that I don’t know that there is a reason…..I wonder if I am being jaded by not wanting to see her in a bad light. You have definitely given me something to think about. Because when it comes to the day-to-day management I find myself saying “wtf?” more often than I should.

    2. WellRed*

      Why are you not sending stuff back to her and asking for it the way you need it? “Jane, please send me your calendar with work relevant information only please.”

      1. anony-mouse for this one*

        I included you in a reply below, but I think you are right. I didn’t do it because I was worried I was becoming too nit-picky but I also think at this point I am probably contributing to the bad behavior by doing this.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      First thing I see is that you need to do is to list out the assignments between you and put names on them, include due dates. Store it on a shared drive where she can see and update it. Keep a copy in a place she can’t access it, so if she does any creative editing you can call her out on it.
      Second follow up with her regularly on things that are due that she hasn’t done. If she does your work ask her why she did that instead of tasks X, Y, & Z, that are assigned to her. Even throw out the phrase, “I don’t see the efficiency in duplicating efforts.”
      Also on the calendar, if it comes covered in crap, send it back, repeatedly if necessary, until you get a clean version.

      1. anony-mouse for this one*

        Well, we do have a shared drive with a matrix of duties on it and some other shared documents outlining our duties and where we are supposed to update these when they are done.

        The last time she told me about an update in person, I told her I could just pull the info from the shared drive….her reply? “Oh yea, I forgot how to access that folder so I haven’t done anything”

        I showed her again where it was. I let our boss know about this instance and boss’ reply (again) was that I just needed to be more patient and she was young.

        The idea on just sending the calendar or other work back that you and WellRed recommended are good. The reason I didn’t send it back was because I am afraid of being nitpicky but maybe I just have to be annoying until I train the behavior into her. At this point I am probably also enabling this behavior and causing myself more heartache than necessary.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Be nit picky, own it. Once she realizes that crap won’t fly, you should get better results. Also put the instructions on how to access the shared drive in a word file and email it to her every single time she say’s she can’t remember how to access it.
          If she picks up the hints she will probably get better. If she doesn’t she’ll probably start looking for another job as this one will have gotten “too hard.”

        2. Work Wardrobe*

          Young? 32 is not young (in the sense of what you’ve described) regarding developing good work habits.

          I’m pretty shocked that your manager is passing off that bad behavior as “she’s just young.”

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Your boss needs to grow a spine.

          Can you divide the work somehow so that you have control over your half and you can hand yours in when you have done it? Probably not, just a shot in the dark there.

          Your boss is mentoring you, so why doesn’t she mentor this other person also?

          You may need to say something to your boss like, “I have gone as far as I can go with this person and I need you to intervene. It’s been three years of this and she is only 6 years younger than me.”
          As far as the “everyone is not you” smoke screen, just say that really has no bearing here because this person cannot do the basics of the job. And add you are wondering how many more years of this will be adequate time for her to learn the job. Try to nail down a time frame.

  62. Wendy Darling*

    I have a phone interview today with a nonprofit with a very admirable mission. I foolishly did not look at their Glassdoor until I’d scheduled the phone interview.

    Multiple reviews mention that the CEO is paranoid and controlling, and several cited the CEO calling people into meetings and demanding they swear loyalty to the CEO. I’m looking for work because I left a job with an unreasonable jerk boss, so that would be a hard no.

    How bad is it if I just ask about it straight out in the phone interview? Because unless they’re actively engaged in fixing that issue by, say, transitioning that CEO out, I don’t want to work there and we shouldn’t waste anyone’s time.

    1. PB*

      I wouldn’t ask about it directly. I’d focus more on general questions about culture and interactions with administration, maybe ask about current challenges and what role the successful candidate might play. I’ve worked in organizations with serious administrative issues. Everyone who worked there was aware of the problems. However, if a phone interview candidate asked how soon we would be replacing our administrators, or if it’s true that the CEO was awful, I would have been extremely put off.

    2. Friday*

      Glassdoor is pretty public knowledge – personally I would bring it up. My current company has some bad glassdoor reviews and when I interviewed with the CFO, she surprised me by bringing it up before I could. She did a great job in telling me what HER approach is to workplace culture (she’s newer here and the bad reviews predate her) and we had a nice conversation about it, which was one of the reasons I ended up choosing to leave a strong company to come here and so far it’s been a really good choice for me.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I have actually asked a company about negative glassdoor reviews once in the past — they had a stunning 1.8 stars and the complaints about upper management were very consistent. The hiring manager told me he was aware there were problems and that he tried to insulate his team from the nonsense as best he could, and that they were in the final stages of a major leadership change and that the new leadership was very promising.

        That was about the best answer he could have given but I ended up declining to continue because it turned out the job would have been a $35k (!!!!!) pay cut.

  63. Mouse*

    Hi Snark! Popping in to ask you about your work on behalf of my FH. He currently does naturalist stuff for the government and conservation stuff for a huge nonprofit. Those work environments are starting to wear on him a bit, so he’s starting to look outside of the government/nonprofit worlds to somewhere where funding might not be such an issue, but he’s not sure what options are out there!

    1. Snark*

      Oh hi! Glad you asked.

      So, I work in Federal contracting for environmental compliance support, which is still basically governmental….but the advantage is, my work is tied to legal and regulatory requirements that are basically eternal and unavoidable. You can’t really get around the requirements and provisions of, say, the Clean Water Act, or NEPA, or Endangered Species Act, or whatever. An Environmental Assessment or Environmental Impact Statement needs done if the Army needs to build a new facility, or if the Colorado Department of Transportation wants to widen a road, or if a new wind farm gets built on BLM land, or whatever. And those agencies do have environmental compliance people, but most often, they contract our things like EAs/EISs, Integrated Natural Resources Management Plans, Wildfire Management Plans, and so on et absurdum.

      My team and I are scattered throughout the Intermountain West and Midwest at the installations of a DoD branch, providing onsite support for whatever. I’ve done RCRA site closure forms, I’ve written three EAs myself, I’ve revised solid waste plans – my job is just sort of “be onsite and help with whatever.” Others at my firm serve as SMEs for specific program areas, especially those of us with certifications – I’m a certified wildlife biologist, for example. One can also work for the big firms – like AECOM, CH2M Hill, Cardno TEC, Weston – who do big contract projects like complicated EISs and permitting, but not the kind of embedded onsite support we do. My kind of stuff tends to be smaller firms like Aleut, AGEISS, IDEALS, and Portage.

      I’ve been doing this for five years now and it’s pretty great. Lots of variety, obviously, and it plays to my appetite for McGuyvering stuff and hacking my way through unfamiliar weirdness. I’m also a good technical writer, which is pretty critical. I will say that sometimes contracts end, get protested, or don’t get awarded, so it’s not perfect job security, but I also don’t lay awake at night.

  64. Junior Dev*

    I lost my job. I got fired not for any particular misconduct, but for not fitting into their work environment in the way they wanted.

    Does anyone have any advice on the best possible story I can tell to interviewers about this, and how to present it before even getting an interview (on resumes/in cover letters/when asked in some online form why I left my last position)?

    Here is some more detail:

    * The job posting I applied to listed a different set of technologies than the ones I worked with on a daily basis
    * The culture was very snarky and sarcastic but was not open to specific suggestions about how to improve the code base everyone loved to complain about. I had a hard time navigating that. It often seemed that others would be complaining and joking about how awful stuff was, I would try to participate in the conversation in a relatively constructive way, and people would respond as though I’d said something terribly offensive even though I didn’t mean to.
    * I got written up about a month ago but it was not clear how to avoid the problems that led to the write up. When I asked detailed questions about what I should and shouldn’t do, that was portrayed as me “not having the required skills” to do my job
    * The culture in general was very much about not planning or taking the time to do stuff in a sustainable way, which led to bugs and code being unnecessarily complicated. I got blamed for the bugs and for taking too long to understand the complicated code.

    So I am wondering 1) how to avoid such work environments in the future 2) how to present myself to future employers in such a way that doesn’t come off as bitter but also makes clear I didn’t engage in any sort of misconduct and I also do have the technical and social skills to succeed in a less toxic environment.

    1. Michaela*

      Honestly, saying a job wasn’t a good culture fit for you is legit. Adding that the position you applied for used a different tech stack than the one you ended up using is also going to help.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Thanks.

        Do you have any suggestions for wording? Would something like “unfortunately, it was not a good fit culturally and I was let go” be good?

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I would focus more on the fact that the position advertised wasn’t really what it turned out to be, specifically mentioning the technology issue. That makes it more objective and less about something personal.

      As far as avoiding a toxic employer in the future, I’m in the same situation. I ask a lot of questions about the culture, what’s the company goals are, and what the upper level leadership is like, as I’m trying to avoid another rudderless employer. I also look up the company on Glassdoor to see what I can glean from there. There’s probably no guarantee, but I feel like I’m doing what I can.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Thanks. It’s rough but I’m realizing I was miserable there so I think in the long term it is for the best.

        1. Chaordic One*

          I’ve been through something similar myself. Dealing with the bro culture among other things. Did you know there were female bros? Who knew?

          Yes, really make the effort at good self care. Eat right, exercise, get enough sleep and then get your resume in order, wash your car, clean your house, and do some decluttering.

          Interviews get easier over time and the more you do them, so keep applying for things.

    4. Mimmy*

      I’ve been reading your posts and I’m really sorry to hear about you losing your job. I think framing it as not being a culture fit is reasonable–just be careful about how you describe it. Be truthful but professional. You could also describe how you were using different technologies than what was cited in the job ad and that you were having difficulty getting specific feedback.

      As for avoiding these type of work environments – that’s one I have difficulty with too. I’m never sure about the type of questions to ask. Even if you do ask the right questions, you probably also have to look for more subtle clues, which isn’t easy.

      Good luck!

  65. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    It’s the continuing saga of the job search for Mr. Death Rides a Pale Volvo! So everything went great on a phone interview for a job at my workplace–and then my college had to push back the next steps for interviewing until December. (Budget reasons.)

    He’s applied to a ton of jobs and not getting ANYWHERE. Any IT folks here based in the Portland, OR area? Our savings are running out & I’m feeling a wee bit desperate. Aaaaah!

    1. Portland Anon*

      I am also an out of work IT person in Portland. He should check out the sites Calagator (specific to Portland tech) and Meetup and look for events related to his field–I’ve gotten all my tech jobs through networking in some way or another. Also, use Twitter, follow people he meets at events, and put the word out about what specifically he us looking for. I got my most recent job because a person on Twitter suggested I apply. He can also volunteer–check out Free Geek for more hardware and tech support type opportunities, and for anh given software framework or discipline there’s at least one group out there he could contribute something to.

  66. Amber Rose*

    I saw a job posting for something that I have zero experience in, but a lot of sort of related skills. They need someone who’s good at investigating claims and writing reports, and that’s basically my whole job except for a different subject matter. I don’t know a ton about the particular subject the job posting is about, but I do think it would be interesting work.

    Further complicating matters, it’s a municipal government posting, and I have no idea if there’s any way to get a job there if you don’t know someone who is already there.

    Would I be wasting my time to apply?

    2. Hellanon*

      Not a waste of time, not at all. But shape your cover letter to make the point about transferable skills & see if you can tweak the language a bit in your resume to make that point as well. And good luck!

    3. Charlotte Collins*

      My first job was a municipal government job, and the most “pull” I had was an older sister who had worked at the same place. (Almost everyone I’ve known who hires teenagers is more likely to hire a younger sibling of someone who had been a good employee. Due to nepotism laws, though, I would not have gotten the job if my sister had still worked there.) Unless the local government is notably corrupt, having clout isn’t something you probably need to worry about. I wouldn’t assume that knowing somebody in local government would help you anymore than knowing somebody at a company you apply to.

      I would apply, focus on the similarities of the skills, and also talk about being excited for the opportunity to expand your knowledge.

  67. Bathroom Bothers*

    Warning: Gross bathroom issue ahead. Someone is… missing the toilet in my office. It’s a single stall bathroom, regularly used by about a dozen people. I keep noticing a mess on the rim (where the seat doesn’t cover, so it could be a man or a woman – although there are a lot more men in our office than women) and spots on the floor in front of the toilet.

    I mentioned it once to our office manager, and housekeeping came and cleaned it up that day, but it keeps happening, at least a couple times a week. Do we put up a sign? What would it even say? Or… is there something else that can be done? I have no idea how to even begin to approach this. I’m fairly mid-level in the office, but I’m not a manager and don’t have any actual authority over the workspace or others in the office, I just have to share the bathroom with them.

    It took a while for me to realize it wasn’t water on the ground because of the color of our floor tiles (I checked by splashing some water nearby and waiting for it to dry – the water spots went away and left no mark when they dried, the other spots were still visible). It’s so gross, and I’m tired of having to wipe off the toilet every time I use it, but it’s not just a topic that you can easily bring up, and it’s not like the person would admit to it anyway. Do they even notice that it’s happening? I don’t know, but it’s so gross. I just want to know if there’s anything that I can do to make it stop.

    1. Amber Rose*

      There may not be. You can try a sign that says something like “Please leave the bathroom as spotless as you found it” but I know from experience that signs are usually ignored.

      If you could organize a staff meeting, you could do what I do and shame people approximately once a year (it is effective to varying degrees), but it doesn’t sound like you have an opportunity to do that.

    2. fposte*

      Probably not. You can put up a note asking people to check and wipe the seat after use, but I think everybody thinks that applies to somebody else; such notes don’t seem to have much effect.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Can you lobby for toilet seat covers? Otherwise ask for a tub of Clorox wipes to keep in the bathroom.

      1. Bathroom Bothers*

        There are Clorox wipes in there, and I’ve been using them to clean up every time I go in and see the spots. I just wish the person actually *making* the mess would do that. I might ask about seat covers, but that wouldn’t help with the spots on the floor. :/

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Well you could just keep cleaning, and ask for a swifter? Then you’ll be the bathroom hero. And we all appreciate those kind of heros.

          1. Bathroom Bothers*

            I don’t know how many other people in the office have even noticed – like I said, it took me a while to realize what it was because of the floor color. But even if everyone did know about it, I definitely want to be known and appreciated for my actual work, not for bathroom-cleaning.

  68. ScarlettSiren*

    Does anyone have advice on what to wear to an academic conference when you’re plus sized? It’s the first time I’m going, and I’ve started fixating on my outfits because I’m a little nervous. For additional clarification- it’s more for academic staff and not presentation of academic material or research.

    1. fposte*

      Are you staffing a booth or anything front-line, and how formal is the conference/field?

      In my field, I’d suggest thoughtfully chosen knits; knit dresses with a nice cardigan for exhibit-hall layering are super common, and knits are especially forgiving if you have to move stuff around booths or sit on the floor (not uncommon, in my conference experience).

      1. ScarlettSiren*

        I’m just attending, and thankfully not actively working it. It’s a conference for higher education staff, and seems to consists of presentations and breakout sessions. I think that it’s business casual- I’ve tried googling previous conferences, but I’m having a hard time seeing what women are wearing.

        1. fposte*

          I think you’d be fine with knits, then (if you don’t like them, they’re not requisite, but they’re a popular go-to so I’m sticking with that theory). Definitely plan layers, because this time of year in much of the country it’s a crapshoot whether you’ll be freezing or boiling. Nametags are almost always on lanyards so they shouldn’t need to be a factor.

          1. PB*

            I agree with all of this. IME, for non-presenters, business casual attire usually fits in perfectly well at these sorts of conferences.

        2. Ghost Town*

          Higher ed academic conference where you are an attendee and not presenting or working the exhibit hall? Business casual that is comfortable for you. Previous commenters are spot on about layers b/c it could be hot or freezing in any given room at any given time (especially if you go to receptions where there are a lot of people eating and talking in a small space).

          There will be more walking than you think, so keep that in mind when choosing your shoes! Have fun!

      2. Snark*

        I read this too quickly and thought you said “thoughtfully chosen kilts.” ANYWAY OFF TO GET MORE COFFEE

          1. Snark*

            Best piece of advice I’ve ever gotten on this site: do not impulse buy your work kilt.

            Wrap it up, Alison, we’re all done here.

        2. Windchime*

          Hey, kilts absolutely happen at professional conferences! I used to go to one called “PASS” and it is for people who use SQL Server. The first time I went, I was very surprised when a ton of men showed up in kilts on a particular day. Turns out it was “Kilt Day”. It’s a thing.

    2. Edumacator*

      Based on my experience, attendees’ outfits are going to vary A LOT. Jeans are probably too casual, and a suit is probably too much, so you want to aim for the middle. fposte’s suggestion of knits is a good idea, especially with a very lightweight cardigan. A dress/cardigan or tunic/pants will be comfy and appropriate.

    3. Junior Dev*

      When I want to look dressed up I’ll often wear a dress with a blazer or cardigan. It sounds like that might be about the level of formality you’re going for.

      I tend towards butch in my preferred style but wearing men’s business casual makes me look like a 12 year old boy in his dad’s suit.

    4. OtterB*

      I like the matte jersey separates from Ulla Popken. They are comfortable, travel incredibly well without wrinkling, and are good for mix and match (black pants with several different color/style tops).

    5. Chaordic One*

      Just make sure it fits and that it’s comfortable. When you feel good, you look good. Also comfortable shoes.

    6. deesse877*

      Academic staff may be different from faculty, and my own field may be especially conservative, but I’ve found that even slightly girly-looking or attention-pulling clothing can attract negative attention on a plus-sized woman. Real life examples that have gotten me vocal reproofs and Edith Whartonesque performative public snubbings from near- or total strangers at academic conferences: patterned tights worn with an otherwise all-black outfit, red suede shoes worn with an otherwise black and grey outfit, a white, high-necked and fairly loose angora-blend sweater worn with an otherwise neutral outfit. In fairness, all three of these sample garments *also* garnered compliments, but the latter didn’t outweigh the unpleasantness.

      Sorry, depressing comment. I agree that knit things that are business casual or slightly above will be optimal.

  69. Lalaroo*

    What do you say to start a sentence instead of “I wanted to…” or “I just wanted…”? I always seem to start my email introductions with “I wanted to remind you…” or “I just wanted to send you this email to…”, but I feel like it’s the kind of softening language that makes me come off as less self-assured. I can’t think of any other way to start though! Writing “I’m sending you a list of my ongoing projects” seems too blunt?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Hi Fergus,
      I’m sending you a list of my ongoing projects. Project A is coming along nicely. Let me know if you have any questions.

      Something like that? The first bit is sorta blunt alone, but you can add other statements to it that soften the overall message without coming across as hesitant.

      1. Rincat*

        I think this example is good. I typically just launch into “I’m sending you this…” or whatever. Adding a “thanks!” at the end and “please” where applicable are good ways to be polite without being too soft.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I just go with it, and I haven’t gotten any complaints, and I don’t think people perceive me as not self-assured. It’s very weird and awkward to say “I am reminding you to do blah” instead of “I wanted to remind you to do blah.”

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I was told in a business writing class never to say “I want to tell you.” Just tell them. So, “Remember that…” or “Here are my ongoing projects…”

    5. Fabulous*

      I always dislike ‘saying what I’m doing’ outright, like how the “I’m sending you and email” does. Of course you’re sending an email. I’d start it instead as, “Here’s a list of my ongoing projects.”

    6. Blue Eagle*

      Here’s something you might want to consider. Would you rather read an e-mail where the sender started off talking about themselves (“I” want to remind you) or about you (just a quick reminder for “you”)?

      Just asking because a business writing class recommended starting memos {just tells you how long ago I was in school – way before e-mail} mentioning the recipient (i.e. “you”) before the sender (i.e. “I”) and if possible to avoid the word “I”. This approach is one that I’ve attempted to use in both my business writing and my personal writing ever since.

  70. Blood_Donor*

    So a couple months ago I had a comically bad job interview, and now that I didn’t get the job and we’re all presumably moved on, my question is – should I reach out to the people I interviewed with to explain why things happened the way they did, and assure them it wasn’t a lack of respect?

    The details: The position was one similar to the position I currently hold, just at a different institution in town, and this was a first-round interview – a video call over Google with me and three people from the department, including the director. The only time slots they offered were all during the normal work day, and my current job definitely does NOT know I’m looking elsewhere and would be very unhappy (nothing’s terrible or anything, I’m just ready for something new), so I had to be sneaky. I decided to do the call from the car – I live a half hour away from work, so I couldn’t make it home and back without making up an excuse and taking half a vacation day, and my car would be quiet and private. There was a work blood drive at a nearby community center on one of the few days they offered, so I selected the time slot a half hour after I’d finish giving blood – that way, I’d already have an excuse to be away from my desk, and I could do the call from the center’s parking lot rather than work’s tiny parking lot. I selected the perfect parking lot, tested the service there, tried a video call with my roommate to make sure it worked, cleaned my car, and figured out exactly how to set up my phone on the dashboard to get my whole face in there.

    In retrospect, I just should have skipped giving blood that day, or added more of a cushion – but giving blood is important! I made an appointment for that, but the Red Cross was all backed up. I was literally lying on the table, watching the clock, willing myself to bleed as quickly as possible. Afterwards, I SPRINTED a few hundred yards to my car, without drinking water or having a snack. I slid into the passenger seat, propped my phone on the dash, and called them – five minutes after our scheduled time, already feeling woozy. They were all there, I apologized for being late and explained that I was at a blood drive that got backed up, they said it was cool, and we started the interview.

    It was like eighty-five degrees that day though, and my car was parked in the sun, so within a couple minutes I was covered in sweat and feeling like I definitely might pass out. I said, “I’m just going to start my car and roll down the windows, carry on,” and leaned over to turn the car key a notch. As soon as I did, the radio came on FULL BLAST. I immediately turned it off, apologized, and rolled down the windows. Thirty seconds later, my phone TURNED ITSELF OFF because it was too hot.

    So I jumped out, ran around the car, jumped in the drivers’ seat, started the car, turned the a/c on full-blast, and held my phone in front of the vents while chugging water and cramming Cheezits into my mouth because the loss of blood was getting to me. About three minutes later, I was able to turn my phone back on, and called them back, apologizing like a crazy person.

    The rest of the interview went fine, but obviously that was a bit disastrous, and I didn’t get a second-round interview, unsurprisingly. I’m not sure it would have been a great fit for me anyway, but I feel terrible that I’m sure it came across to them as, “I didn’t prepare or plan for this at all and you are not important to me.” This is important because they’re an institution doing similar work to mine in the same metro area, and since I still work in this field, I’d love to collaborate with them in the future, plus I’m sure we’ll be at the same meetings, events, conferences, etc.

    So – should I reach out to them over email? If I see them in person, should I mention it? What are your opinions?

    1. CMDRBNA*

      I wouldn’t. You already didn’t get the job, giving them an explanation isn’t going to change that. If it’s a company that you still want to work for, I’d say maybe, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case. I’d just take it as a lesson learned and not schedule something right before an interview, especially something that could leave you feeling faint.

      1. Blood_Donor*

        That is definitely a lesson learned. : )

        I definitely am not trying to change their mind about their hiring decision – I’d just want to leave them with a better impression of me, and apologize for the chaotic interview, knowing we might need or want to work together in the future with our two institutions (I work for a very well-known institution in town.)

    2. Reba*

      I think it would have made sense to do shortly after the interview, in the form of a regular follow up email that could briefly apologize for the chaotic environment. Not sure if it makes sense to raise the issue again now, which might change their impression of you, but might also just remind them how weird it was. If you are friendly with the interviewers, a casual mention in person might work for you.

    3. Em Too*

      I think if you see them in person you could mention it. If you know them to speak to and the situation’s right I’d absolutely tell them the whole story. It’s one way to raise a profile.

  71. seashell*

    Feeling disappointed this week… I had what I thought was a good interview last week and was told I’d hear back this Monday (the 18th) “either way.” I know from life experience and this blog that the Monday date would probably not be met. I sent a follow up email yesterday to check in/ask for updated timeline, but nada. Just feel like I’m waiting on my rejection email. Also know from reading here to put it out of my mind and go on like I didn’t get it. Just ruin my weekend already!!

    1. Bea W*

      I feel your pain. I have an active job search, and this is what happens. Like dating, these companies are probably just not that into me. The putting it out of your mind is easier said than done. I think it does get easier the more you have to do it. Still sucks, but I’m finding that with a very active search where I am juggling multiple interviews with multiple companies, I’ve just adopted that mindset and move on without thinking about it as much.

  72. Agent Rosenflower*

    I’m in upper management and have a peer director, Donna, who is widely reviled by my middle managers (Nadine, James, Audrey). Their problems with her are legit, but their methods for dealing with them have been self-defeating, to the point that they turned into new issues I had to escalate to HR and my C-level manager. As far as Nadine, James, and Audrey can tell, there have been no consequences for Donna’s behavior – she’s being protected and they’re being punished. Here’s the thing. I know there *have* been consequences for Donna. In fact, with a month or so, their Donna problems will probably disappear. I really can’t hint around at anything, but would like this group to stop being reactive to Donna when it’s only hurting them now.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you say something like this: “You are assuming that the problems you’ve raised aren’t being addressed. When there are serious problems with an employee here, we respect that person’s privacy and do not share details of how things are being handled behind the scenes. I’m asking you to give us a chance to work on this, and to trust that your concerns are being taken seriously and that the fact that you’re not seeing it play out in front of you doesn’t indicate nothing is being done.”

      1. Agent Rosenflower*

        Yes! I can try that. I’ve said a few things like, “Donna’s boss is aware of the issues you’re raising, but you can’t assume that you’d hear about any action she might take.” But this is a little more reasoned and sounds like someone, somewhere is doing something. Thanks Alison!

  73. VictoriaQ*

    Is it ever appropriate to wear fleece-lined leggings to an interview/the office? Right now as a student, most of my professional wardrobe is skirts, and if I’m interviewing while it’s cold out, can I wear such leggings under my skirt, or should I just find a bathroom nearby to strip out of them and tuck them into my purse for the interview? And, what about offices? Should such leggings just be restricted to more casual-dress offices?

    1. Manders*

      I live in fleece-lined leggings all winter long, both under skirts and under pants (I get REALLY cold). I think it’s unprofessional if you’re wearing them as your only butt covering–if you’re wearing them like tights under a skirt, it’s fine.

    2. Karo*

      For day-to-day office wear: I think this probably varies wildly by office. In mine, as long as you’re not wearing them in place of pants, leggings are totally fine – but there’s been a few great debates here about whether they should be okay.

      For interviewing: Because it varies so greatly, I’d probably err on the side of caution and not wear them to the actual interview.

    3. Rincat*

      I think those leggings look the same as tights, so if you would normally wear tights with an outfit (like a skirt), they should be fine. I think the only thing that would make them look weird in an interview is if they were in a wild color or print (I’d go with a neutral, preferably black, for an interview), or if they bunched around your ankles. Basically, just make sure they look like hosiery and not an extra pair of pants.

    5. VictoriaQ*

      Ah, thank you both! Yes, I would definitely wear them under something for sure! I’m currently interviewing at my school (which is casual, for a position that is very casual, and I was debating if I could wear the leggings to that.

    7. Jennie*

      I wouldn’t wear them to an interview or professional setting office. It might be fine, but it’s better to find out after you’re already hired. You might want to invest in a nicer set of black slacks (or suit) to wear for an interview. You could wear tights (as long as they are black) underneath your pants. I work in Finance and sometimes, I’ll do that when it is really cold out. I also wear Uniqlo’s undergarments, such as camisoles or long-johns underneath my clothes. They have two lines that are either for heat or cooling. You might also find that pantyhose (without texture or design) would work for this type of situation as well.

    8. Temperance*

      This is very location dependent, but I would not ever wear leggings to a job interview. I’m in law, though, so a skirt suit and pantyhose are my uniform.

    9. Ghost Town*

      Fleece-lined leggings as tights under a skirt or dress – yeah. I think most people will just see them as tights/hose and not blink at them.

      If they are not footed leggings, I might try to match my sock and legging color so the transition looks seamless.

  74. Foreign Octopus*

    So I heard something that I thought you guys might enjoy.

    My friend’s boyfriend is a software developer who works for a company that has diverse interests from sunglasses to porn (hello, flagged words!). In the latter industry that he works in once or twice a month on maintaining their website, he has to visit their offices to meet with management. The last time he went there, the office was split straight down the middle in a workplace benefits row.

    One of their sponsors (makers of a fleshlight or something similar) had delivered a box of their products for free. The women in the office protested that it was unfair that the men should receive a gift for work done by all of the team. As such, their manager kicked the problem upstairs and the women soon received vibrators as a gift for a job well done.

    Obviously, I felt that I had to share with you all.

    (I hope that this is okay to post, Alison!)

      1. Amber Rose*

        Although now that I think about it, something similar happened here last year, when we got our usual batch of free calendars from suppliers. My supervisor complained about all the female pin-up ones, so they brought her in a “sexy dude of the day” calendar for her desk and one of those shirtless firemen ones for the office. :D

        2. LadyKelvin*

          Our local (NHL)hockey team does an annual calendar of them posing (usually topless) with puppies available for adoption at the local shelter. Proceeds go to the shelter. To say that is it popular would be putting it mildly.

    6. Artemesia*

      Hilarious. And I am so out of it; I am sitting here saying ‘why can’t women be given flashlights?’ Yikes, had no idea. I mean I knew such things lurked in on line shops and porn shops, but the idea of a box of them being delivered to the office as swag is somehow hilarious. But how nicely they responded to the protest by the women.

      1. hermit crab*

        I admit, I googled it and was then extremely amused by the wikipedia disambiguation note: “Not to be confused with ‘flashlight.'”

  75. Karo*

    In an ideal world, my job involves working with members of the press to get earned media coverage. I’ve been successful at all the prep work for this in the past, but my exec always squashes it last minute because he’s scared of getting press (don’t ask).

    Now I’m applying for a job that specifically asks for experience attaining earned media. How do I address this in my cover letter/resume? I’m not comfortable saying I was successful in this regard because if they ask for proof (i.e. the stories) I have none. But I did everything else right – I nurtured relationships with journalists, I worked with them to show our expertise, I had an SME ready to speak with them, etc. Anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Planning campaigns, relationship building… and I hereby award you a medal for managing not to murder your boss!

  76. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    I have been at my current job for over 4 years. Prior to this job, I was unemployed for 2 years (due to a layoff). Before the layoff, I was at OldJob for almost 20 years. My question is, on my resume, do I need to account for the 2-year gap between jobs? if so, how do I mention it?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      No. If they ask, you can answer the question. But with a 4-year stay at your current job I don’t think it will come up (except, perhaps, casually — “Oh, you weren’t working for a couple years before you came to Company X. What were you up to?”)

  77. CDN HR*

    How do you stay motivated when you have an incredibly boring project to complete? I’m talking de-stapling and scanning when you’re used to creating constantly. I’m not sure how I’ll stay sane when I’ve been doing this all week and have at least another week left.

      2. Morning Glory*

        Yes – if headphones are allowed, this is the kind of work that was made for audio entertainment. Audio books, podcasts, language learning will all keep you from going insane, and actually help you stay on-task better.

      3. Bea W*

        Great time for music/audiobook! I also actually enjoy this type of work as a break from a busy day. Maybe you can break it up into small chunks if there is a lot of it so that you are not entirely overcome with boredom. This task seems it would be perfectly suited to using the Pomodoro timer technique.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I use it as my “thinking” time. I think about things I need to complete, or that I might want to elaborate on, research, etc. Many times I welcome the boring stuff so I can give my brain a break.

    4. Juror 8*

      If you’re allowed to listen to things while working, I’ve found that listening to really engrossing podcasts makes more repetitive tasks like that go much faster! I have a more creative job but sometimes have to do basic data entry for days at a time, and marathoning things like true crime podcasts actually helps me enjoy that time and take advantage of not being focused on problem solving at work.

        1. Juror 8*

          Oh sure! Last time I had to do something like this I listened to Crimetown, which I really loved — it’s a very interesting look at organized crime in Rhode Island and has a lot of great interviews.

          Other podcasts I come back to a lot are My Favorite Murder, Serial/S-Town, Reply All, Someone Knows Something, and just digging into the archives for This American Life.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This–I used to work in a sales office and the boss reserved stamping envelopes for herself. She wouldn’t let anyone else do it because she said it relaxed her. LOL.
        I love stuffing envelopes for the same reason.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        Me too! Last year I had a temp job sorting, scanning and shredding paperwork in a room by myself. It was heaven.

  78. Oscar de la Cat*

    I manage a team of five. The oldest woman, Trudy, is very buddy-buddy with the one who is in her late 30s, Kelly. She’s friendly with all of us, but it’s clear Kelly is her favorite. Kelly feels the same way, it seems. She calls Trudy her “work mom.” They regularly have conversations during the day, although it’s nothing that derails them from their work. Sometimes everyone gets in on it, but clearly the two of them are usually carrying it.

    For awhile now I’ve been slightly annoyed by the comraderie, but my stance is that it doesn’t affect anyone else’s work (including my own), Trudy gets her work done and helps the others as needed, and maybe it’s just me being sensitive because I’ve always felt like the outsider (and I sit in an office down the hall). I feel maybe it’s because Trudy trained her and they have a similar personality, which is why I try not to let it bother me. (She was like that with the last person she hired/trained, who has since left).

    Then yesterday Sara mentioned that she tried to make a little conversation with Trudy in the morning, as did Mary, but Trudy barely spoke a full sentence. But when Kelly came in, Kelly got a ten-minute conversation about exactly the same subject. I told Sara that if it bothers them then they should talk to Trudy, but to first consider whether it impacts their work and their ability to learn and grow; she said it doesn’t, it’s just something that annoys them and they feel a little left out. The other team member, Laura, is pretty quiet so I’m not sure if it’s something that bothers her or not. She hasn’t said anything to me. I suspect the reason Sara mentioned it to me is that we worked together for many years prior to both of us coming to this company, so she feel comfortable saying something to me.

    There’s lot of times when I feel left out of things, but I also know that my peers have all been at this company for more than a decade, so they have a history, whereas I’m the newbie at three years. And I’m not naturally a joiner when it comes to conversation anyway, which is part of why I still feel like an outsider. It’s getting easier, though. The last six months seem to have been a turning point in that respect for me.

    Should I just let this go and see what happens? Obviously if it comes to the point where someone is actively ignored or work is being impeded, I would step in. And there doesn’t seem to be any friction that would cause this.

    1. fposte*

      I would agree with you that if this isn’t changing how Trudy handles the work with those co-workers, it’s not a problem. I think your “talk to Trudy” was fine, but if it comes up again I might say that as long as people remain courteous to one another you think different levels of closeness are fine and common in a workplace. Because I do think that, and I think your staff might be applying friendship standards to a work situation. I understand feeling left out, but I can’t see an alternative that doesn’t involve unreasonably policing friendships at work by either insisting they can’t exist or insisting they have to be all-inclusive.

      1. Oscar de la Cat*

        Agreed. When working with Sara previously, she was always fairly social and was one to make friendships at work (easily, I might add) that carried over into her personal life. I kept in touch with her after our working together ended, and she often spoke of her friendships with her coworkers at other jobs. So I think that’s why she said something about it and why it bothers her. I mean, it bothers me, too, but that’s because I was very social with everyone at a previous job–I was the “long timer” and knew everyone–and I miss that. It didn’t carry over outside of work, though. I’m not really one for making my work friends my personal friends.

  79. Guy Incognito*

    I work at a University and am in the process of hiring a graduate assistant. I have made an offer to someone and am waiting to hear back, but I am nervous that I didn’t handle it properly.

    I interviewed my pool of candidates last Thursday, Friday, and finished up Monday. I waited to hear from references and made an offer yesterday afternoon. Was this period too long? I don’t feel like it is, but it’s already September and I made a misstep (I think) saying that I wanted to make a decision this week (I should have been more vague, but I misjudged the length of time it would take me to hear from references). I have gotten follow up emails from a few candidates during the week but haven’t responded as I didn’t want to tell them to wait just to tell most of them that they hadn’t gotten the job soon after. I am starting to feel badly that I’m keeping these kids in suspense, but I’m trying to think critically about my responses. Did I handle this okay? What can I do better next time?

    I have had two GAs before this, but one I didn’t hire and the other was a bit more timely (as in I didn’t wait till mid September) so the situation was slightly different. Also, if it makes any difference, before that I had never managed anyone before and I’m still not super confident in my ability. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Murphy*

      In general, I think you handled it OK. That’s certainly not too long! I wouldn’t ghost the candidates that tried to follow up with you. I’d just let them know that things are still moving along and you’ll let them know when it’s finalized. Even if you’re planning on letting them know either way, it sucks to be on their end and not hearing anything back. Also, it’s possible that the person you offer the position to might say no, so you might have to go back to one of those other candidates.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Seconded. Let them know where you’re at in the process, even if you have to follow up with a rejection afterward. They may have other opportunities available and need this info for their own decision making.

        1. Guy Incognito*

          Thank you so much – that certainly makes me feel a bit better, and I will definitely be getting back to follow ups now. I was just nervous of the timeline – if everything went even faster and my responses were “status update” followed immediately by a rejection. But you are right about the decision making for them, which is what was making me feel badly. I appreciate the advice!

          1. JN*

            As someone currently job hunting in academia, I know I’d appreciate any kind of follow up, even if it’s as simple as “the process is still on-going and I will inform you as soon as a decision is reached”. Candidates may know that hiring processes almost always take longer than planned and that employers are as likely to ghost them as respond to them, but responses are definitely better. I’ll agree with MOB that it’s possible they have other offers pending and it could be helpful to them to know if they need to keep you in the equation or not.

    2. fposte*

      In two parts because Safari won’t post long comments: You were super-speedy in the turnaround compared to me! I just have enough experience to know that calling references takes for-freaking-ever. Usually I give two-three weeks for the “hope to let you know by” time frame. However, with the late start, you probably wouldn’t want to do that anyway. I would *definitely* respond to follow up queries letting them know your new time frame; for my GA hires, we also send rejections to people not chosen to interview before we have a final candidate, so you could consider doing that if you’re worried about the time.

      1. fposte*

        I think part of your pressure comes from the late start on the process–can you plan to mitigate that in future? We actually pin our fall semester GAs down by May–we start posting the position in February. (That also means we get the best of the bunch :-).) Maybe you can’t do it that early, but I would post as early as you can and just use updated language from the previous year so you don’t have to do redrafting that delays posting. Create your own standard schedule for how long it’s up, how long you can leave for responding and interviewing, etc. Our timetable is pretty established at this point; the only wild card is the changing placement of spring break right in the middle of it.

        I could say a ton about managing GAs, but I’d say clarity of expectation is the biggest thing you can give them. GAs are generally undermanaged/expected to work independently, depending on how you view it, and managers often seem to feel weird telling them what’s wanted. Tell them what’s wanted, and keep in touch. There’s still plenty of room for independence.

        1. Guy Incognito*

          Thank you! Yes you’re right about creating a system – will definitely be doing that to prepare for the next time. This time around was delayed due to questions by my VP about how GAs are paid in my office (some things were changed but it didn’t affect me), plus my own hesitance to hire anyone due to the fact that GA database allowances were severely limited by Student Employment in the past year and I worry that this job won’t be worth much of their time. My supervisor insisted I hire someone, though, so here we are.

          I will be following up with the emails, though – definitely something I should have done, was just unsure of how to approach it. Thank you again :)

        2. Artemesia*

          the very first GA I ever had was fabulous and she provided the support I needed to develop a series of advanced courses. It spoiled me on management because the next couple had thermostats for quality set a lot lower; they would not provide me their best work but slapdash material that often required more work on my part than just doing it myself.

          Really important to provide guidance and set clear expectations and provide feedback and let them rework material early on. Once you are on the same page it is so much easier to manage so you get real work done with them. It is also better training for them on developing their own intellectual work — they learn what good quality efforts look like.

  80. Juror 8*

    I’m starting a new job in 2 weeks and literally just got a grand jury duty summons for the day after I’m supposed to start work! I deferred it for 6 months so I’ll already have been at work for half a year before I need to serve in April, but it looks like grand jury duty in my area means I’ll very likely be out of the office for 4 weeks. I’m happy to do my civic duty and I know grand juries especially are very important to be on, but I’m a little stressed to be away from a relatively-new job for that long.

    I have no idea what my new company’s policy is when it comes to jury duty so it’s stressing me out…would it look weird to reach out to HR and say “Just a heads up, in 6 months I’ll need to serve grand jury duty. How do we usually handle that?” Or should I just chill for a few months and ask once we get closer to April, since it’s still so far away?

    2. Free Meerkats*

      Since you haven’t even started, it would be a simple ask without revealing anything. “What are policies regarding X leave, Y leave, Jury leave, and Z leave?”

      But I see no reason to not let them know this is coming. It’s not like it’s voluntary and it’s not something you knew about while you were in the hiring process.

      I once was on a civil case jury for 4 months, but that’s another story.

    3. Alice*

      I’d wait until after you start to notify them – technically, they can’t fire you for serving on a jury, but they could try to find a reason not to hire you if you tell them beforehand (not that they would, but that they could). I’d just mention it when you’re completing the new hire paperwork and make sure to provide them with a copy of the summons.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Congratulations on the new job, and on the jury duty selection! One of my colleagues missed about four weeks of work for a murder trial. We work at a state university and jury duty is paid leave. She had to submit documentation to HR, but when I was selected, I just told my boss and she okayed my leave. I was held for an entire work day, then released without serving, so it was just a boring day out of the office.

  81. Your Weird Uncle*

    Question about office culture: how do you cope in a really really quiet office culture?

    I’ve been at my new job for about a month now, and I love it! I love my team, and the people I support. But it’s miles apart from what I’ve been used to. I have my own office set at the end of a quiet hallway, and I could go an entire day without hearing from or speaking to another person. I’m used to open office plans, or having chatty coworkers who stop by for a few minutes each day, or somewhere in between. But here, everyone just sticks to their own office and works throughout the day on their own thing (quietly) and – as a pretty hard-core introvert who always gets exhausted by too much human interaction – I’ve been surprised at how much of an adjustment this really is.

    I am sure I’ll adjust soon, and I have to admit that at times it’s been a really nice switch! But yesterday was rough when I really just wanted to talk to someone and there was literally no one around. Aaargh.

    2. Snark*

      Man, am I ever in the same boat, including being basically introverted but still needing SOME interaction. It’s especially bad because I’m a contractor, not “part of the team.” It’s not a coincidence that I post here often.

    3. Bea W*

      Try informal unch or break invitations by email/IM/in person. “Hi Wakeen! I’m going to try that new lunch place across the street today. Want to join me?” or you could send an email to the group asking if anyone would like to join you. It doesn’t have to be lunch. It could be anything, like a quick 10 minute walk break when it’s nice outside.

      Get a bowl. Fill it with candy (chocolate is probably best). Keep it near your desk. Send out an email to everyone with an open invitation to share. This is by far the biggest reason people I’d otherwise hardly see, stopped by my desk. :D

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Ha! You know, I’m surprised that I’m even missing having a busy office with lots of interaction. I am the sort of person who watches Orange Is the New Black and thinks that solitary confinement sounds *wonderful*.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Ha, I tonight I was too until I went back to full time office work and found I like a chatty open plan.

  82. GenericLegalAssistant*

    I need advice on how to set and enforce boundaries with potential clients. I am the legal assistant in a solo attorney’s office and handle client intake. When people call an attorney, it is usually because something distressing has happened in their lives. I do my best to listen compassionately while still getting the information that I need, but some clients treat me like I’m their therapist, and it is interfering with my work. Others insist that they need to see the attorney NOW, THIS INSTANT, and pressure me to set up a phone call or meeting. First, not everyone has a case (though they often think they do) and second, it isn’t fair to existing clients if their attorney’s time is taken by EVERY potential who wanted to talk to him. Any advice/scripts regarding how to firmly limit my call times and appointment requests? (I wish I could just tell them they have no case, but I can’t give legal advice.) Thanks!

    1. Manders*

      Unfortunately, this is really common when you’re handling the phones and screening potential clients for a law office. I occasionally had luck with finding a good place to jump into the spiel and say something along the lines of, “I’m just the person who answers the phones, not an attorney, so I want to make sure you know I can’t give legal advice” or “I want to make sure you don’t have to repeat your story too many times, why don’t you give me an overview so you can save some time.” But I never did find a way to totally stop people from rambling or getting pushy.

      1. GenericLegalAssistant*

        I currently give a version of the “not-an-attorney-can’t-give-legal-advice” speech, but sometimes it backfires on me because then they ask, “Well, let me speak to an attorney who CAN give me legal advice!” Haha. :)

    2. persimmon*

      Former paralegal here. One of the reasons this happens is that the people calling don’t understand what the process will be, which increases their freakout level. The best solution is to always explain what you are doing and what will happen next. E.g., “I’m Attorney’s assistant. I’m going to ask you some quick questions about your problem so I can determine if this is the kind of case our office may be able to handle.” If people are rambling, you say, “I’m so sorry that you’re having a hard time. I want to focus on the questions that will help me figure out if our office can help with your problem. Does that make sense?”

      If it turns out you want to send the case on to the attorney, then explain what will happen in the appointment as you are setting it up–this can reduce some of the panic/urgency. If the answer is no, then you explain that your office isn’t able to handle X type of case, which can be a more diplomatic way of saying there’s no case. E.g., “Our office really focuses on more recent disputes. We aren’t able to take a case where the main conflict happened 20 years ago.” Also, many states have a bar referral service, where you can call a phone number and be assigned an attorney for an initial consultation–so if your boss is okay with it you could give them this phone number since people like to have an alternate option.

      1. Anon attorney*

        This is really good advice. Although I do not do initial screening now, I have done it in previous jobs. I wasn’t totally clear on whether you are trying to get rid of people quickly who you don’t want as clients, are trying to make calls with potential clients more efficient. In my jurisdiction and specialism, there are a couple of questions that will usually immediately weed out clients we don’t want/can’t help, so we train our paralegals to focus on those first, and redirect anyone who “fails” the screen to the bar association/other firms who do slightly different things. If you don’t have that kind of protocol in place it might help to make the conversations more structured.In cases where somebody is distressed and has a lot of non-legal problems, being able to refer them elsewhere (counseling services, doctor’s office, debt or money advice services, housing and welfare etc) is also a compassionate but practical approach.

        There will always be people who will want to keep you on the phone for half an hour telling you all the gory details of the accident/divorce/probate, no matter what protocol you have. I have had some success with wording along the lines of “Ok, I need to stop you there – you’ve given me a lot of information, which is really helpful, but I can’t give you legal advice over the phone. I’m going to need to speak to (attorney) to confirm whether or not we can help you. I will do that after we get off the phone, and one of us will get back to you by (whenever).”

        If all else fails, I don’t see anything wrong with occasionally telling someone that you have to go because you have an appointment (“So sorry but I will have to stop you there as I have another client waiting in reception”) or another call waiting. It may even be true!

  83. katamia*

    I got some kind of…career meet-and-greet?…email invitation (sent to everyone, I assume) from a law firm (I’ll be studying LIS, so I guess I could be a law librarian?) and I’m trying to decide whether or not to go. The email says they want to talk with anyone no matter what they’re studying, but it looks like the only presenters are various types of lawyers.

    I don’t *think* I want to be a law librarian (I seriously considered but didn’t go to law school because I didn’t really care about law, and presumably people are happier when they’re librarianing for things they don’t hate), but should I go anyway if I’m not 100% sure I don’t want to be a law librarian, or should I just be focusing on doing these meet-and-greet type things in areas I’m more interested in? I didn’t go to any of these types of things in undergrad, so I don’t know what the etiquette is. (Also, do I need to dress nice if I do decide to go?)

    1. LawBee*

      Can you call someone and get more details? I really do think, however, that law librarian is one of those jobs that either you know you want to do it, or you know you don’t. A law school friend of mine took that path – she knew after the first semester of law school that it was the career for her. Having said that, the meet-and-greet sounds like they’re looking for future lawyers, because it truly does not matter what your undergrad degree is in.

      I don’t know how much actual LAW is involved, though. We don’t have a law library in my firm, so my only association with it is in law school.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks. Sounds like I can skip this event, at least. Maybe I’ll bring up the law librarian question to my advisor once I, er, know who it is.

    2. Naruto*

      Being a law librarian isn’t like being a lawyer. Why not just go and see what they have to say? You’re not commiting yourself to anything.

  84. discouraged MBA student*

    Not really a question, more of a vent.

    I’m about a month into an MBA program and I’m having a hard time. Not with the curriculum necessarily, but with my classmates. I’m taking a discussion-based class on ethics and concepts of leadership as they relates to business. As is to be expected from the subject matter there is plenty of room for spirited debate, but it’s really disheartening and sometimes downright horrifying to hear some of the viewpoints espoused by my classmates. Very cutthroat, very dismissive of other points of view; in one class session one guy went off on a pretty racist/sexist/classist rant and no one, not even the professor, challenged him on it (I admittedly didn’t; I was speechless and hope that explains why none of my classmates spoke up either).

    It’s tough to think that these are likely going to be the future leaders of powerful organizations. I know people can change and I do think it would be a huge win if, by the end of this class, even one of these people leaves with a more introspective and open mind.

    1. Lora*

      Aww, I’m sorry. Totally get what you mean. Had an entry level guy ask me to write him a letter of recommendation to business school and I asked, “are you sure? are you sure you don’t want to be something more exciting like a neurosurgeon who saves people’s lives and contributes important things to the world? Are you sure you wouldn’t rather do something productive with your life instead of funding country clubs and drinking too much?” I did write him a glowing letter in the end, but was very sad.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      Caveat: I know absolutely nothing about the whole MBA thing.

      Are your classmates experienced in the working world? I found when I went to college (started when I was 34 and got an associates) that the people who didn’t have much working experience had very different viewpoints, or a style similar to what you describe, whereas those that had been working for awhile were much more nuanced and thoughtful about what they said and how they said it.

      Obviously racism, sexism and classism know no age limits, but I wonder if your experience might be due to classmates that are fairly inexperienced in the working world.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I meant the fashion in which they expressed themselves could be due to not really having the working experience, not that their horrific viewpoints are.

        (I was trying to type something fast while watching for the pizza guy…)

  85. Dream interview coming!*

    Has anyone ever used or interviewed with that Hire Vue thing? I scored a pre-screen/interview with my DREAM COMPANY (I could cry because of this, and my current situation is exponentially growing in hostility and uncertainty, which makes me even more nervous), and I have do this. Any tips?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I have! Practice your answers to routine interview questions (why are you interested in this role, strengths/weaknesses/etc.) in front of a mirror first, so it’s not quite so jarring to watch yourself being recorded. Test the lighting and sound ahead of time so that you can find the best spot to record the interview. I used my iPad that had a stand, so the recording was steady, so make sure you test out whatever method you’re going to use to prop up the camera.

      One of the questions that surprised me the most was “type in a cover letter,” which I thought VERY odd for a video interview, and they did not give me nearly enough time to type (I type much slower on an iPad than I would an iPhone or a normal keyboard.) When I did a second HireVue interview, I preemptively copied my cover letter so I could simply paste it into the text box if I was given that same question again.

      Good luck!

    2. Unhappy Intern*

      I have!

      It gives you the option to practice a couple of times on the platform, and it helps a ton. I took my time and could see what I was doing wrong, understand the platform, etc. I was sure I wouldn’t get to the next step, but was pleasantly surprised.

      Good luck!

  86. Incognito*

    Still searching! I have a question about accepting/attending interviews when you know another company is preparing an offer. At what point do I stop interviewing? After I have accepted an offer? What if a company has offered or is preparing an offer? Is it okay to keep interviewing even if you are almost sure you would take the other job?

    I feel like better safe than sorry. I expect to hear back from the job I want by Monday at the latest. I have an interview scheduled with another company on Tuesday. I don’t want to cancel my Tuesday interview, because I feel like nothing is certain until at the very least I have formally accepted an offer and have a start date. I keep thinking, what if this job falls through, then I will regret not keeping my interview appointment on Tuesday. I am also continuing an active search. I feel like I’ve read that advice hear before.

    1. Robert*

      I would personally still attend the Tuesday interview, if not to save face, just in case that company has a future role you’d want or you don’t get the offer you’re anticipating. I wouldn’t cancel anything until I had a signed contract from someone.

    2. Incognito*

      P.S. – The job I want is reference checking, and I’ve been told they are putting together an offer if that makes a difference.

    3. JN*

      I’ve also heard the advice to continue to apply and interview until you have an accepted offer. It’s entirely possible that there could be something in the offer that would be a deal-breaker to you. I know I’ve seen things on AAM about offers coming in with lower salaries/benefits than what was mentioned in the job listing or during the interview process. Plus, it’s possible that the company you’ve been told is going to send you an offer may not end up doing so on Monday after all (things always seem to take longer than planned).

    4. Kathenus*

      Definitely continue interviewing until you have accepted a written offer.

      You also asked what if another company is preparing an offer. If I have an offer from company A, but have been interviewing with company B and would prefer it if both were available, I’d contact company B and let them know that I have another offer and ask when they will be making a final decision. This way you know if you can wait until then to accept or decline company A’s offer, or whether you need to decide to either take the definite offer of company A or decline it and hope for an offer from company B.

    5. Windchime*

      Keep interviewing. I was in the reference-checking phase with a manager who I knew really, really wanted me because she emailed or called me with almost daily updates. I still kept interviewing and I didn’t give notice until we were done with negotiations and I had received my written offer. I had a really promising phone interview the day before the written offer arrived.

      Good luck! It sounds like it’s pretty much in the bag for you, but it’s best to keep interviewing until it’s a done deal.

  87. LawBee*

    We’re doing phone interviews for our open position right now. My coworker has been handling them up to this point, as I’ve been on the road. She’s doing a good job, but so far she thinks everyone is a good candidate for an in-person interview! We’ve got eighteen phone interviews to do, and we really need to pare the in-person list down. This is for an entry-level admin position, so the technical bar is pretty low (we want to MOLD them).

    What criteria have you used in the past to select which candidates to move forward, when they’re all very similar?

    1. Bea W*

      You’ll have to ask her to choose the top 5 or however many you want to sift through. You might need to provide her with some concrete guidance on what attributes to factor in when paring down the list. Since you want to “mold” this person, you might weed out folks who may be experienced or potentially overqualified. I’d gravitate to people who sounded most enthusiastic about the position.

      If I wanted someone to stay on long term with increasing responsibilities, I’d assess where there career aspirations were at. Some people are just taking an entry level job like this just to start working, but it’s not really what they want to do.

      Then there is just overall personality, potential fit, and presentation. Surely not all of them were the same in this respect, but since your co-worker has had the interaction, she’s the only one who would have any sense of the things that aren’t captured in the resume. If verbal/phone communication is an important part of the job, the quality of a candidate’s presentation over the phone can be used as another bar of performance.

      Basic skills and ability to learn are important. You can get a glimpse of skill through the presentation of the resume, to some point at least, assuming the candidate wrote their own resume. Is it written and formatted well? Written communication is generally important for an admin candidate, and the first place you see it is in the job application and resume. Surely some will stand out more so than others in this bunch.

    2. jmm*

      Who can start the soonest?
      Salary requirements – whose salary requests are way out of the ballpark?
      College GPA (if most candidates are recent college grads)?

    3. Anono-me*

      Can you ask her to rank the candidates, then say let’s interview the top 4 or 5 and see where we stand?

      It sounds like the you want someone adaptable, so I would ask questions about experiences the candidate has had in learning new/different ways of doing things and questions about times when the policy was do something way X but in the candidate’s expert opinion, it should have been done Y way.

  88. periwinkle*

    Is anyone familiar with onboarding at retail HQs? I’m just curious… my husband started working at the HQ of a major U.S. retailer, with the first 1.5 days dedicated to the onboarding process. The written materials he brought home seemed to be written under the assumption that you’re an hourly store employee, which of course is the vast majority of the org’s employee population. I was rather amused at the encouragement to smile and be tidy & cheerful; my husband is a senior IT person working in the Pacific Northwest, where the basic expectation of IT people is that they remember to wear pants.

    I was wondering if this is a common experience for those who are corporate HQ hires in retail, food service, and similar industries with a huge base of hourly employees.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      When I started working at Giant Soul-Sucking Retailer, I spend a day watching videos about tasks I didn’t do and benefits I didn’t qualify for. So I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they had a “one size fits all” onboarding process.

    2. Bea W*

      Different industry, but I when I onboarded at a huge company, much and of the training material was not directly applicable to most roles at corporate HQ, such as safety procedures related to manufacturing and labs, things no one at corporate would ever encounter. That said, the onboarding was attended by people from all departments and locations. People who worked in plant attended the same session as people who worked at corporate HQ.

      We also have to complete a series of trainings each year related to sales tactics and regulations that apply to marketing product that are entirely unrelated to my job being a desk mounted computer jockey. It’s a huge waste of my time, but I work in a high regulated industry and the company has been slapped on the wrists multiple times for hinky sales and marketing tactics. These trainings are mandated by consent decree with a certain government agency.

      Last year we went from 3 “compliance” trainings to 13. I really wish the folks in charge of marketing and sales would cut the crap!

      1. periwinkle*

        My own onboarding at HugeManufacturingCorporation was similar in that the onboarding presentation was attended by everyone – hourly entry-level through management (including the lowest executive levels), union and non-union, factory and office. Luckily the information presented was high-level general stuff, inspiring videos about company history and goals, that sort of thing.

        Oh, and safety, since that’s a topic that gets lots of discussion across the entire company. We have a big safety initiative (with a nice logo! and merchandise!) and our commitment to safety is even in our official performance management goals. Basically I have to promise not to trip over exposed power cables or endure bad ergonomics at my desk. We got the big spiel about our safety initiative at onboarding, and were given a plastic water bottle with the safety logo.

        And I injured a finger trying to unscrew the cap of the water bottle. But anyway…

  89. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Just an update on a few things I’ve asked you guys about in earlier open threads (thank you for the responses!)
    1. I ghosted my gossipy, mean lunch crew. I just don’t eat with them anymore. I go eat somewhere else by myself and listen to a podcast or read. Much more peaceful.
    2. My teeny-tiny non-profit put someone (a younger board member) in charge of posting on our social media pages. They have not posted anything yet. They also put someone in charge of writing social action statements. I haven’t seen anything from them yet either. The only one putting original content on our website right now is me. I’m pulling my hair out, but also plotting my escape (or a less-than-hostile take over where I run for a board position that has the authority to hold people accountable for what they volunteer for).
    3. I never heard back from my ex-boss who was so desperate to hire someone that she reached out to me (we didn’t work well together). The start date is in two days, and I’ve heard nothing from her, which is kind of a relief.

    Also, my terrible coworker just resigned! *happy dance*

  90. Polina*

    I’ve never commented before, but here it goes: I work in a small unit of a much larger organisation. Our unit is in a foreign country. We have our boss, then me as his deputy and then four people support staff. My question is about working hours (I have been working here for about six months, this is my first mission for the organisation, and it’s my first “real” job although I’m a little older because I was in academia first).

    Up until two weeks ago we had a boss who was happy with me working 40 hours a week (officially we do 36 in our country) and we weren’t even working that hard during those hours. I was still getting the job done, and got it done well. Now a new boss was assigned to our unit and I struggle to get clarity on how much he wants me to work. He says he leaves it up to me and judges by results, and he can tell I did a lot (old boss was severely burned out so i took over a lot). But… Our field has a truly unlimited amount of work one COULD be doing, and i know in most of our other units people in our function do lots of overtime. So i am afraid i will be judged if i do my 9-5.15 plus some evening events, even though it is more than the time we theoretically have to work and despite getting good results within that time.

    I really don’t want to work longer hours because i have young kids and i don’t even particularly like my job (but it’s very well-paid and opens lots of doors). I’m cheerful when I’m there… i would just rather be home earlier to play with the kids.

    How do i gauge how many hours I’m actually expected to put in? How do i cheerfully “train” my new boss to expect 4 or 6 hours of overtime a week instead of 15, without seeming unmotivated? The work gets more interesting as one gets promoted, so i don’t want to be parent-tracked – i just want a chance to work efficiently for 40 hours and go home when the organisation has a culture of working inefficiently for 55 hours.

  91. BippityBoppity*

    Anyone ever work with a stylist to build a good work wardrobe? I don’t have a lot of free time to shop and I’m in a clothes rut. Appreciate tips on looking good in a traditional/conservative business casual office with minimal effort.

    1. Cat*

      Have you checked out MM LaFleur? They don’t do matching suits so it might not be quite conservative for what you need, but their stuff is basically conservative office mix-and-match with minimal effort involved. And great quality.

    2. Murphy*

      Have you tried one of those services like Stitch Fix? I’m not sure how well they do on conservative businesswear, but you fill out a “style profile,” tell them your size and what you’re looking for, and they send you clothes. There’s a “styling fee” that gets taken off if you buy anything.

      1. Cat*

        Stitch Fix is bad at conservative business wear, but I’ve tried MM LaFleur (mentioend above) and Trunk Club, and had goo experiences with them both.

    3. bean*

      I did, a bunch of years ago before starting a new job in a new environment, and it was great. Found a great stylist and she came over to my home. She helped clean out my closet; got rid of a bunch of things; took photos of a bunch of my clothing items; made a list of clothing items to fill in gaps (and she actually shopped for some pieces for me, too – she brought them back a couple of weeks later); took photos of different outfits; and made me a “look book” of suggestions with the photos she’d taken of my clothes, which included pages on which she combined photos of certain clothing items she suggested wearing together, as well as tips for styling other items I owned or might like (included accessories, too). She included multiple ways to style most items, too. It was amazing. Looking back, I think it was completely just dumb luck that I happened onto a stylist who was great and who ‘got’ the style I was going for – but it ended up being totally fun and not stressful (which was my fear since I hate to shop), and actually really helpful. I say, ask around and get recommendations and go for it.

      1. BippityBoppity*

        She sounds amazing!! I’ll ask around and see what I can dog up. Thanks for filling me in on what a good stylist can love up to!

    4. zora*

      A friend of mine had a really great experience with the Nordstrom personal shoppers, when she worked for a conservative business casual law firm. She went to a local Nordstrom knowing her budget, and brought the key pieces she had in her wardrobe that she wanted to keep/include. She developed a relationship with a personal shopper there that she liked, and over a year built a new wardrobe. The personal shopper helped her find some pieces that she would never have picked out for herself, and helped her plan strategically so that she eventually had a sort of capsule where everything went together.

      And basically it’s free. You don’t pay extra for the shopper, you just pay for the clothes. Plus they have tailor services in house, so she didn’t need to make separate trips for alterations.

  92. Haunted*

    I need help on how to tactfully respond to why I left my previous job? I was technically fired (first time ever!) they sited culture fit, which seemed weird because I was a great culture fit and had worked there 10 months, so seems like a strange thing to say after 10 months, and they didn’t really go into further explanation. I filed for unemployment and they lied about why I was fired saying it was behavioral. I eventually won my unemployment appeal (nothing like going without any income for 2 months waiting on all of that) I was able to tell what actually happened during the incidents they cited to protest my unemployment. The hearing officer summed it up best by saying I was provoked in each of those circumstances…and this is all complicated by the fact that at the time I was let go I was pretty unhappy because my boss (the CEO) dismissed health issues, going through a divorce, and having a miscarriage as “drama” and having no empathy for what I was dealing with in my personal life.

    So, my question is, even though I may have been glad to get out of that misogynistic hell-hole either way, I was technically fired, and if asked in an interview why I left , I can’t say I was fired because my boss didn’t want to accommodate my health issues because he’s an insensitive prick. I feel like there is no nice way to say I was fired but the company is a mess without being seen as someone who can’t take responsibility, and/or turning people off with an inflammatory response…how can I be honest yet vague about why I left my last position?

    1. Murphy*

      Can you say “culture fit?” since that’s technically what they cited? 10 months isn’t too long of a period of time to say that.

      I was fired once without cause and without explanation after a few months so I just flat out say that I wasn’t given a reason, and that I received a positive performance evaluation a few days beforehand. (Obviously I can’t prove that last bit, but it is true.)

      I’m sorry you’re going through all of that and I hope you find something soon.

      1. Haunted*

        Thanks for the reply – and yes, now that you mention it, I received an outstanding review at my last review and a significant % raise (although when you start out making half of what you should be…) but I digress…those I think are great things for me to focus on.

  93. Safetykats*

    I’m wondering what everybody wears to travel.

    I was on a business trip last week, for meetings with a group people who work in my field and for my employer but at diverse locations – so people I’ve never met. Obviously, I wanted to make a good impression, and Inassumed the dress code would be less casual than my normal job, so I packed pretty carefully. And then, at the rather small destination airport, somebody made off with my suitcase.

    In 20-odd years of business travel, this has never happened to me. I’ve had luggage delayed, but the airlines always pretty much knew where it was. In this case all I could really do was hope it was an accident, and that it was returned to the airport – which after several hours turned out to be the case.

    However, I was potentially stuck in my more casual travel clothes, and that was pretty upsetting. I work in fire protection, so I feel strongly about traveling in natural fibers and sensible shoes, which doesn’t describe most of my nicer work clothes. For this trip, I also had a carry-on full of work materials we had been requested to bring, so I didn’t have extra clothing on the plane.

    In the future, maybe I need a bigger carry-on? Maybe I should have UPS’d the work items to my destination? Maybe I need to change my travel clothing principles? I feel like I at least need a strategy, because this was actually pretty upsetting.

    Any advice is appreciated.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      In your line of work, I think “My luggage didn’t make it, and of course I wear natural fabrics and sensible shoes when flying, so you get to see me in my emergency-preparedness outfit” would be just really, really appropriate. :-)

      If I’m traveling for work I tend to wear business casual. If I were in your shoes, I’d wear cotton knits, maybe with a silk scarf. If you’re a guy, khakis and a cotton shirt would be fine, and the fact that you’re even asking this question makes me think you’re probably not a guy.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, I would hate that. But: you still weren’t out clothes for the trip, it doesn’t sound like you have anything in your carryon that’s a high theft risk, and your other options bring their own issues (UPS can also get lost, and bigger carryons will need to be gate-checked on some planes). Is the risk great enough to be worth changing your current approach, and will that lessen the overall risk or just reshuffle it?

      Alternatively, if this is out managing anxiety about the risk rather than the actual risk, you can experiment with different approaches to see which one seems to be the best balance.

    3. Artemesia*

      I used to travel a lot to make speeches and so my iron rule was that I always traveled in clothing I could give a speech in . It was not necessarily the clothing I intended to so wear, but I wouldn’t be humiliated. So I usually traveled in dark black jeans that read as black pants (no grommets or jean detailing that was obvious) and a blazer and turtleneck in winter or shell in summer. Once my luggage didn’t make it timely and I was able to present and the people organizing knew the luggage situation.

      On an international trip where I was going to be traveling for 26 hours, I dressed more casually but then put a dress, hose, heels, underwear in a cube and put it in my carry on. This was the smallest/lightest outfit I had that would work in the middle eastern context. I also carried on my professional materials. The luggage came along fine but at least I had an outfit I could put on and look professional.

    4. Agent Rosenflower*

      Sensible black knit dress with black tights and black flats, with one of those “is it a sweater or is it a jacket???” things to make it all look business-y.

    5. Kathenus*

      I wear nice (but not business) casual, with comfort as a priority when traveling. I did an international work trip a couple of years ago and my luggage was lost (was returned 5 days later the evening before I flew back home!). I had to do an emergency shopping trip and get a few versatile pieces (still hoping to get my luggage ‘any time now’). People at the meeting knew what had happened and all anyone felt for me was sympathy or empathy, no judgment for having more casual than desired clothing, that I re-wore parts of throughout the meeting (yay, hotels with laundry). So I don’t worry about the impression, but do now bring a few essentials in my carryon (one shirt and a set of under garments).

    6. Girasol*

      I know people always hate “that guy” with the big carry-on but I always used a well packed carry-on in lieu of checked bags for business trips up to a week. I never wanted to turn up at a business meeting in my air-travel casual and I never again wanted to wait an hour and a half at the carousel. Mix and match separates that don’t wrinkle and can be laundered in a hotel sink are good for keeping your carry-on from being annoyingly large.

  94. Melly*

    I think there are a few public health people on this board, but I wonder if anyone is a DrPH, or is studying for a DrPH. I’ve begun seriously considering this degree. I already have my MPH, and I work at a university with generous tuition benefits, however I don’t live in the State capital, DC or Atlanta, which is where it seems this degree would be most marketable. Curious if others have experiences with this. Thanks!

  95. LAI*

    What are good careers for Humanities majors? I know the standard spiel: Humanities majors teach you critical thinking and communication skills so you can do anything. But what I’m wondering is, what career fields actually value Humanities majors and might be inclined to hire a Humanities major over a non-Humanities major? For example, if you’re hiring for entry-level positions in HR or PR or something general like that, are you looking for someone with a major in that specific area or would you be just as likely to consider an Art History or Classics major?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Well, what do you want to do? That’s the better question than what can humanities majors get jobs in. That’s such a personalized answer with factors that it’s hard to generalize. Sure, entry level HR is a possibility but you’d probably need a internship to get a leg up over people with HR degrees. Ditto with PR. Lots of programs teach critical thinking and communication skills, not just humanities.

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        Yes – what do you want to do? Here are a few things I have done with a humanities major: legal assistant, developmental editor, graphic artist, veterinary technician, administrative assistant, instructor at a community college. Admittedly, when I started in the workforce, it was far easier to get jobs, but I think you can do whatever you want if you can write a compelling cover letter. I have hired for entry-level admin and research assistant positions and I don’t care at all what a applicant’s degree is in for these roles, I’m looking for someone who can communicate effectively, which is why I think in your position, cover letters are so, so important. There’s not that much for me to see on the resume yet. As far as what career fields value a humanities major, I would say resoundingly that Academia is where I have found the most homage paid to degrees generally, including what they are in and where they are from.

    2. Quibbler*

      I graduated six years ago with an English degree and thoughts of “What am I going to do with this?” I ended up getting a marketing certificate afterwards (it was a one-year program) to complement my degree, and now I’m a marketer in the investment industry. At my former workplace, many of the marketers there had an educational background in Humanities.

    3. Manders*

      I have an undergrad degree in Medieval Studies and no other certifications, and I was able to talk myself into several marketing positions by telling the interviewer that I liked the way the major allowed me to do in-depth research and turn lots of information into a concise write-up. I think the key is 1) not acting like the job you’re applying for is your second choice/not really what you wanted to do, and 2) learning enough about the basic vocabulary that you won’t sound lost in interviews for entry-level positions, whether that’s through an additional certificate programs, online courses, or self-teaching.

    4. EmilyAnn*

      I have a Bachelors in History and Political Science, and after graduation I worked for a Member of Congress in Washington D.C. Politics and government are good places for entry-level Humanities Degrees. Many of my classmates worked for cities, counties, and state governments in various capacities too. Now I work for a government agency in International Affairs.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Almost all aspects of higher ed administration love people with humanities degrees! You can do so many things at a college or university.

    6. Ghost Town*

      I recruit humanities majors to business graduate degrees, so this made me smile.

      The standard spiel is right. The humanities background gives you solid skills in critical thinking, writing, argument development, and communication. The trick is getting that on a resume in a way that employers will see it.

      Sometimes that trick is getting an additional certification that reads easier on a resume, like marketing, financial advising, human resources, IT, what-have-you.

      Do you know what you want to do or what you don’t want to do? What do you want your work life to look like (generally or specifically)? Have you looked around at job descriptions to see what appeals to you?

      There are a lot of options. There are a lot of paths and careers. And there are more than you may think there are.

  96. Rusty Shackelford*

    Office toys!

    All of my Funko Pops are in my office, and after yesterday’s theft post I’m starting to worry about them getting stolen. Anyone else? They’re not something I’d display at home so I’m not planning to move them… I’m just a little anxious now. (Had a prized mug that disappeared many years ago, but theft doesn’t seem to be much of a problem here.)

    Also, how unprofessional is it that I have them here at all? I’m not client-facing, and I’m barely coworker-facing. (And I don’t care, I’m keeping them here. I just wonder what people think.)

    1. Murphy*

      I have a few along with some similar figures at my desk. I haven’t had many comments. A few people asked me who they were of, a couple people vaguely said they were “cool”. One person wanted to talk to me about geek stuff. I think it’s fine.

      I’d never considered them getting stolen….they’ve been here for a while, including while I was out on maternity leave. I think the cleaning staff moves them around some, but they haven’t walked off!

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think the perception of how professional “office toys” are depends on the office. With mine, it’s definitely encouraged to personalize your space. Almost everyone decorates their cubicle with plants, figurines, toys, posters, streamers, etc. Do other people in your office have personal items on display?
      Also, yes, I definitely worry about stuff getting stolen, which is why I don’t bring in many personal items. I haven’t heard of anyone in my office having stuff stolen from their desk, thankfully. Although, I did find a bunch of stuff that my predecessor left (pictures of her family, books, jewelry, holiday decorations, etc.) because supposedly when they fired her, they immediately escorted her out and she didn’t have time to gather it all. And they never boxed it up and sent it to her. They left it in her desk until I started, and I had the mail room guys bring me boxes so I could pack it all up and send it back to her (HR put her last known address on the boxes). If they fire me, I am NOT leaving my plant behind! My ugly coffee mug can stay, though. ;)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Everybody’s got personal items, but I think I’m the only one who has actual toys. One of them’s your girlfriend, BTW. ;-)

        That’s awful that they didn’t return your predecessor’s stuff.

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          *GASP* I love my girlfriend! And I love that so many other people love her, too! I’ve been tempted to buy a Funko Pop Charlie for my desk, but lord help me if one of my coworkers reads this blog and figures out it’s me.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        When I got fired, I made the manager and HR wait while I packed up EVERYTHING. I was not about to leave any of it behind and trust anyone else to pack up for me. I never lost anything while I was there, but these people didn’t know me really and they would not know what was mine and what was not. I took nothing that belonged to the company.

        Plus, although I was polite about it, I did enjoy making their process take as long as it possibly could. A little wicked? Eh, maybe. Mwahaha.

        1. Anonymous for this one*

          I did pretty much the same thing when I was fired. I kind of left behind a big mess of papers on my desk (not intentionally), but hell, they could deal with that.

          Two things I left behind, though, were two small yellow toy school buses. One was a Hot Wheels and one was plastic and when I bought it it had candy in it. No one every asked me about them, but I told a friend from a different department that it was to remember the people who were thrown under the bus.

    3. My other desk is a toy shop*

      I have a Pusheen the cat plushy and a toy Moomin on my desk, among other things. I’m not public facing and I do some very upsetting work (e.g. listening to helpline calls about suicide attempts) so having happy cute stuff around really helps.

      This is a know your office thing I guess. Nobody touches my stuff without asking and as to professionalism, a) I sit near a very senior exec’s office and loads of important visitors troop past my desk and nobody has said anything and b) it’s that kind of office. One of my colleagues has a toy dinosaur called Mittens and another likes to stick googly eyes around the office.

      Name changed as this is all rather identifiable to anyone else who works here!

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        Lol! A former colleague whom I cherished left googly eyes on one item at each of her closest co-worker’s desks. It really amuses me. Sadly I lost mine in an office move but I do still have the awesome Star Wars figure she gave me.

    4. periwinkle*

      I spend a lot of time working offsite (last time I was at my official desk was last week Thursday; probably won’t be sitting there again until almost two weeks from now). Theft of desk decorations hasn’t been a problem in our office but just in case, I pop them into my desk drawers if planning an extended time out of office.

      Then again, I get my desk toys from Daiso, the Japanese dollar-store ($1.50 US, actually), so it wouldn’t be much of a financial loss if someone swiped the entire collection. (but please don’t, I love my little squirrel)

  97. Sugar of lead*

    So I have a temporary job at a pizza shop. We’re overworked and undrestaffed and I’m right at home. It’s the first job I’ve ever had where my colleagues like me and my work is valued.

    HOWEVER, in a few months’ time, I want to go back to a professional job. When the time comes, how do I quit my job graciously after so little time there? My boss is kind of emotionally fragile because she runs this place by the skin of her teeth, and I want this to be as non-traumatic as possible.

      1. nep*

        Good advice there. You can do this graciously and responsibly.
        Be as respectful and conscientious as you can about notice and helping the transition — but in the end (and you know this already) you’ve got to do what’s most important for you.

  98. Talia*

    Something weird that happened at my job interview yesterday: I have applied for this same job before, a couple of years ago. Since then, the supervisor for this position moved away, the person in it got promoted, and here I am getting interviewed again. However, they had my *old* resume, the one from two years ago, in front of them. I was supremely confused. (Especially since it lists X-to-present for a part of my current job that I’m no longer doing– I corrected them about the dates but didn’t challenge the resume since I wasn’t sure if I’d just messed it up. I checked when I got home, and the current resume has the dates properly listed. I am confused!)

    Also, two interviews in two days! Though I’ve had plenty of interviews; I’m just not getting *jobs*. Maybe the fact that I’m now having less life stress will have improved my interview performance. Also, I had a real live experience of visiting a place and having the interview change my opinion of it today: I had thought that yesterday’s place was my first choice job, but on actually going in to today’s place and talking with people and seeing the workspace I’m no longer sure that’s true. Now I think they might both be awesome places to work and I’m not sure which I’d prefer.

    1. The JMP*

      The resume thing has happened to me as an interviewer before. What happened was that anyone who applies through our online system has a single profile-type thing, to which they can add attachments. The person I was interviewing had applied a few years back and updated her current position information, etc. in the system for this job, but had not uploaded a new PDF of her resume. So her “system” resume was accurate, but I had printed out the PDF. Luckily she brought extra copies of her current resume with her.

      Good luck with your job search!

  99. Keyboard shortcut warrior*

    I had an interview yesterday! There were two people asking me questions, the person who would make the final decision and another person who is there to listen and take notes on my answers. I sent my thank you today to the former, but I have totally spaced on the name of the other person. How bad does it look if I only send my thank you email to the one person?

      1. Keyboard shortcut warrior*

        I did figure it out with 90% certainty and social media got me the rest of the way there. The sticky wicket was that she works at a different branch in the library system. Thank you for your answer pushing me to find out rather than giving up.

    2. Morning Glory*

      Did you try doing a quick check on LinkedIn or the company web site to see if you recognize the person’s face so you can match it with their name?

  100. Jubilance*

    I have an interview next week, yay! However, because I’m an internal candidate, they haven’t given me any guidance on what I should wear :-(

    My company is business casual/casual – it’s totally fine to wear jeans everyday. Most women where some type of blouse and jeans, or a dress/skirt. Going sleeveless is fine and I saw a ton of cold shoulder tops this summer.

    The recruiter told me to “dress for my day, and confidently”. My manager is aware that I’m interviewing but I’d prefer not to walk around in a suit all day, and I think a suit would be too much. Maybe nice slacks and a blouse with a cardigan? I do wear dresses in the office but a nicer dress would definitely signal that I’ve got an interview happening.

    2. Artemesia*

      I’d wear a nicer business casual than usual and not a sleeveless or cold shoulder top and probably not jeans, although dark sharp jeans with a nice top and nice shoes might work fine.

    4. Anono-me*

      Sweaters always seem so cozy and informal to me. Nice slacks and a simple blouse sounds great, but I suggest a blazer rather than a cardigan. May be change from the sweater to the jacket for the interview.

      Good luck.

      1. Anonymous for this one*

        I agree. A jacket looks a little more dressy and formal, even with jeans. I have a “go-to” corduroy that I use for such occasions.

  101. Anon4now*

    So the honeymoon phase of my new job is over after two weeks. I’m a preschool teacher. Yesterday I told a parent that his child hit another student. This kid is a known problem, and I can already tell that other parents are going to complain – their own kids are going to say that they got hit, or that this kid took something from them, or that so much time was spent disciplining her that the well-behaved kids didn’t get a turn to jump in the color hoops. In any case, I wasn’t sure about what to do so I decided to just be honest. The mom called in and tried to get me fired. Fortunately everyone already knows the deal with this mom and kid but I’m still a little shaken by the whole thing. I remember being in school and having the whole class controlled by the one kid who wouldn’t sit still and let everyone else have a turn. I was trying to give these kids a better experience.

    And this morning my boss called me to tell me that other staffers came to her with “we want raises because Anon says she’s making such-and-such.” My boss knew they were full of shit because the number they gave was wrong and because she knows I don’t even know them. So we had a long chat about how none of this is my fault but mayyyyyybe I should just never talk to anyone at the school because everyone’s a gossip who tries to blame you for shit.

    Does anyone have any experience with the first part, managing discipline issues when the parents refuse to believe that their child needs to be reined in, at home as well as in school? My school’s solution is to just tell them about stuff so administration can handle it, but it breaks my heart in the moment to watch the quiet, patient kids have their experience get trampled on.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Can you try redirecting any of the kids in the situation to a different activity so it doesn’t seem like Destructo is ruining an experience exactly? It’s not super ideal, but it’s all I’ve got off the top of my head. The ideal situation would be for your administration to lay down the law with the parents and let there be a behavior plan in place. Sounds like if this kid is such a known quantity that it will continue to be an issue until she leaves school.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. I would be referring him for behavioral evaluation so that there is the possibility of additional assistance. I believe in inclusive classrooms and most of the moves in that direction have benefitted kids, but when one kid holds a classroom hostage, it is time for some pull out experiences for this kid, perhaps an aide in the classroom and at minimum and IEP and some guidance for the teacher on dealing with is behavioral issues. This is particularly hard for new teachers. Keep the focus on learning for everyone even when dealing with the terrible parents. Lots of kids have issues; it is a lot easier when the parents work with you on plans to manage those issues. With a referral and evaluation, there might be some more positive engagement of the parents in behavior management. (perhaps over their kicking and screaming)

      2. Anon4now*

        We’ve honestly tried. Every redirected activity is just another scenario for her to interrupt, classmate for her to hit, or object to grab out of someone else’s hand. It’s also very difficult to instantly redirect a full class of preschoolers to something new when it took 15 minutes to get everyone sitting still in a circle to sing about the days of the week.

        1. Observer*

          Artemesia is right about referral for the kid, but you can’t really force a parent to do this. And this mother doesn’t seem to be all that cooperative.

          Redirecting the kids is not a useful solution, as you have discovered. And it’s actually BAD for Destructo, because it just reinforces that he gets to run the show. So, all in all, not what you want. What you need to find is someone (or a group of people) who have had some success in handling a difficult child in class.

          Also, document your head off. The ONLY chance you have to force the issue with the parents is to document what’s going to a point that either the parents will have to concede that SOMETHING is up, or the school has enough documentation to make a significant move. The MOST important thing here is to document EVERY SINGLE time the kid hurts another child, or tries to – especially if you are talking about biting or hitting kids with things.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Please try to remember that all behaviour is communication and you have as much responsibility to this kid as the others. I mean this kindly, but you need to stop thinking about how you felt as a child. You are the teacher and it is your job to be everyone’s teacher, not to project stuff from your own childhood.

      I do have experience with this (two years as a trained volunteer working therapeutically with ‘problem’ kids) and the number one thing you need to do is investigate why this is happening, or refer to someone who can. Children do not act like this for no reason – there is always a reason if you look for it. You also need to work out calm, structured, consistent ways of de-escalating – but that is likely to be something to do in concert with other professionals.

      What is the deal that everyone knows? Is it what people know or what people assume?

      Lastly, please stop calling this child a known problem. It’s not that the child is a problem, it is that they have problems. The distinction matters.

      1. Anon4now*

        I’m not a fan of the semantic stuff. The problem is with the parents and I know better than to blame a young child for the fact that her parents aren’t providing any discipline or structure at home – this is a fact and not up for debate. She is the one random child in every large group who really is treated like a special snowflake by her parents. I will use the shorthand of referring to her as a problem when she’s hurting other children. I don’t think that nearly taking out a classmate’s eye (I witnessed the violence and yes it was that bad) is a form of communication that needs to be acknowledged and treated as valid. My form of communication is to call her a problem, in the sense that there needs to be a solution and that she honestly does need to forced to change.

        1. Teacher trainer*

          I think you are in the wrong job. You should probably expect many more phone calls asking for you to get fired.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          I’ve slept on this as I didn’t feel able to give a measured response. I still don’t. I hope you rethink some of what you’ve said here.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            PS in my EXTENSIVE experience the way you actually change a child’s behaviour is by changing the environmental factors around them. I have got incredible results working with really difficult kids whose teachers were astonished by the change. So please consider that I may actually have some idea of what I’m talking about.

            1. Observer*

              And were you ever able to make those changes when parents INSIST that it’s ok that their child acts this way?

        3. Ruralpsych*

          Wow. What a lack of empathy for this child. Your job as the adult is to be kinder & wiser & teach the child what TO do, not just punish them for undesirable behaviour.

          If you can’t approach this in a calm, professional, non blaming way, then seek out help from behavioural specialists who can. And consider additional professional development for yourself around challenging behaviour. It’s not semantics, it’s how the problem is conceptualised. And it makes a huge difference to improving the situation.

    3. Observer*

      I’m not a teacher, and I don’t have any good direct advice for you. But this is something you are going to need to deal with, because it’s an extremely common problem. And while having the administration dealing with parents is not a bad thing, but that’s not the whole solution. You need to find solutions for what is going on in the classroom. There are some good groups out there for teachers at every age, and some of them really do discuss practical ways to deal with stuff like this.

      I’m not sure whether your boss is a jerk or an idiot, but trying to get you to not talk to other people at your workplace is a terrible idea.

  102. Morning Glory*

    Did you submit this through a system like iCIMS by any chance?

    When we get applicants in our system, we see all of the documents they have added, not just the documents they submitted to our posting. So if they’d applied to Job A the year before and JobB this year, we would see both sets of application materials.

    If this company has a similar system, they may have just printed the wrong set of materials.

    2. Bea W*

      Good to know! A lot of companies use this system or something similar. I always thought they just saw the applicable submission materials. How confusing!

  103. Polly*

    How does it work with breast pumping at work? Is the time like taking an extra lunch break and I need to make it up elsewhere in my day or do I just basically work a shorter day because I’m pumping? I’m exempt so it doesn’t really truly matter, but just wondering what the norm is, and what the law is. Or is it something that varies by state? It would be nice to pump guilt free knowing I don’t have to feel obligated to stay a bit late to make up for time away from my desk!

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      If you are exempt it shouldn’t matter. I pumped during “my lunch”. I never really took a lunch and usually ate at my desk, so I wasn’t losing productivity. I would talk with your boss on how they’d like these breaks organized. I think the legal mandate is that you need the private space to pump and time allowed to do so but IANAL.

    3. Murphy*

      It’s like taking an extra break, since it’s definitely not work time, but it matters less if you’re exempt, like you said. If you come and go at the same times, you’ll definitely be working less, so it’s up to you if you can complete your job duties during that time. I’m nonexempt, so I have to clock out and stay longer to make up the time.

    4. fposte*

      The federal law and the states that I know don’t speak to this specific question anywhere. However, that’s important in its own right; it doesn’t say “Employers have to accept fewer hours of work from nursing mothers.” (The federal law also doesn’t protect pumping at work for exempt employees at all.)

      So you’re looking to more to conventions, I’d say. Do you know what other women at your workplace have done? Do you know how long you’re planning to pump? Is it a lockstep culture on hours or are people all over the map? If you’re pumping for two months in an easygoing culture and can do some work at home, I wouldn’t worry about it; if you’re pumping for eight in a more buttoned-up place, I’d stay later.

    5. zora*

      I have a friend who was pumping for a long time (two kids) at a high-pressure job. She bought the ‘pumping bra’ thing that is a strap that holds the pumps for you while pumping. Then she was able to save up mundane or quick tasks every day that she could do while she was pumping. That way she felt like she was using her time productively, and didn’t usually work extra time outside of her standard hours.

      And the fact that people in her office sometimes got emails from her when they knew she was pumping helped with the ‘butt in seat’ expectations so that she didn’t get any complaints about working less time than everyone else.

    6. Overeducated*

      I was non-exempt when I was pumping, but if it helps as a data point for “conventions,” I did it during my unpaid lunch break but otherwise on the clock. I tried to find quieter times when we had enough coverage so it wouldn’t impact our public services, but I did take time out from my individual desk work and did not stay late to make up for it. (I still got everything done.) I and my coworkers and bosses treated it like bathroom breaks – if someone needs a slightly longer one you don’t make them make it up later.

  104. a girl has no name*

    A recruiter reached out to me on LinkedIn about a position at a company I am very interested in working for. I am very interested and said so and he asked me my desired salary and to send my resume so he could forward it to the hiring manager. This is my first time working with a recruiter. How does this normally work? Will the hiring manager just call me for an interview if she likes my resume?

    1. Bea W*

      Everything will likely go through the recruiter. Often when the recruiter sends your resume to the HM, the contact information is removed, although I had one experience where my non-redacted resume was sent to a company, and they still worked through the recruiter. Often, these companies have a contract with an agency that governs how they do business with the recruiter.

      If the HM is interested, s/he will contact the recruiter. The recruiter acts as a middle-person, contacting you for your availability and then will work with the company to schedule the interview(s). S/he will also send you the agenda and any other relevant info from the company about the interview process. Many recruiters also like to have a prep call with the candidate prior to the interview. I find these really helpful, especially if the recruiter is able to tell me about the people I will be meeting, and give tailored advice about what to expect in the interview and some specifics around what the HM is looking for.

      The same chain of communication remains in effect after the interview. If the HM is interested in going forward, s/he will contact the recruiter. Some agencies will also handle the reference checks, and some will just gather the information to forward to the company. Your recruiter acts as your representative all through the offer and start date negotiation process. They are often paid based on your offer, so it is in their best interest to negotiate the best offer possible.

      Sometimes the recruiter is working directly with the HM and sometimes they have a counterpart in HR or both. In some cases the company is working with single point of contact at the agency who may be different than the recruiter who reached out to you, and you may also end up speaking with a second person at the agency who will take over the candidacy or that person may serve as an additional resource for you.

      Good luck!

      1. Antilles*

        This is my experience/understanding as well.
        That said, this is something that’s easy and natural to ask. If you haven’t already sent in the information he requested, this can very easily be part of your email with resume/salary/etc (…and what are the next steps?). If you have, then you can wait a few days/week and ask this as part of a general follow-up / checking if recruiter needs anything else from you conversation.

    2. Zinnia*

      In most cases, all the logistics go through the recruiter, up to and including salary negotiations. This assumes it’s an external recruiter.

  105. Artemesia*

    Came across something that amused me about teapots. I have a children’s game book published by Kate Greenaways in 1889. Our copy was a facsimile published in the UK in 1979. One of the games is the ‘teapot game’ where you choose a word that has several meanings e.g. rein, rain, reign and the object is to guess the word. The person who is it is given sentences by the others in which ‘teapot’ is used to replace the target word e.g. It was teapotting last night. I had to teapot the horse. The Queen has teapotted for many many years etc etc until the person guesses the word.

    It works kind of like chocolate teapots or rice sculpturing replacing specific workplace products and tasks.

  106. Amanda*

    Question on a co-worker who I think is intentionally trying to undermine me… I got the job that he wanted about 6 months ago. A situation changed where we needed some additional help for the team, and he offered to help. Recently, he’s been meeting with my boss and making decisions for my team without including me. I don’t agree with the decisions being made, and I’m very frustrated that I only find out about these meetings after the fact. He has even told me about them after he’s had them and mentions that he just happened to pop by and the topic came up with boss, not that he was intentionally excluding me.

    I am definitely going to discuss the issue with my boss, but I’m wondering if I should discuss it with him as well. Part of me hopes that he isn’t really doing it intentionally, and that by noting it to him, he will be more thoughtful about it, but my gut tells me that he is doing it on purpose. Any thoughts?

    1. Temperance*

      He’s doing it on purpose. The fact that he’s making decisions for the team without your input is a problem. The fact that he has told you that he “just happened to pop by and the topic came up” and that he’s not intentionally excluding you is evidence that he is in fact intentionally excluding you and is aware of it. He’s just doing that thing some people do where they do something awful and then preemptively say that they haven’t done anything awful so you can’t call them on it. (There can be a gendered dynamic to this as well, since women are socialized to be nice and men are socialized to take charge, so he’s depending on your niceness to usurp you.)

      Talk to your boss first, and then ask your boss how you should approach it with Fergus.

      1. Artemesia*

        Talk to your boss to get his advice about his undermining the team efforts. Note that he has been resentful and often tries to end run you and the team. You need his advice on dealing with him and also his support in not meeting with him about team decisions but directing him back to you. And decline his ‘volunteer’ efforts and figure out some other way to get the job done. Good luck. He has a head start.

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      He is trying to demonstrate to your boss that he is more proactive and better at your job than you are. He needs to be removed from the team and returned to his own primary duties. This is blatant and unacceptable, and frankly your boss should have noticed this himself.

  107. a1*

    Should the “profile” portion of online job/networking sites (e.g. Linked In) be formatted like a resume? Meaning, bullets and not paragraphs. I know there are only so many ways to customize since they have specific fields in specific orders on these sites. I ask because in looking through what my past and present colleagues have, it’s a mix of paragraphs or nothing. Nothing meaning the company and position are listed but nothing else.

    1. nep*

      I’ve seen a wide mix of things. I use first person in both my profile at the top, and in the sections about past jobs. I’ve seen this, and I’ve seen bullets. I would say go with what you’re comfortable with, but also go with what appears suitable for your field (more formal required? more casual OK?).

  108. Kim Possible*

    Just have a funny story to share, regarding a company pranking new employees. :)

    A coworker of mine has a friend who owns a small tech company that employees a lot of young people fresh out of college. Every time a new employee starts, he or she is sent an email with a link saying that they have training to complete. When they click the link, the screen turns black, with a large message reading “downloading porn”. When the employees tries to exit the screen, they are unable to. It’s completely frozen. They’re in an open office, so all fellow employees (who all know it’s a prank), begin to look at the employee’s screen, pretending to be shocked and appalled, while the embarrassed new employee tries to deny any attempt to download porn.

    Obviously they don’t humiliate the employee for too long before letting them in on the fact that it’s a joke. :)

        1. Database Geek*

          Same…. I would be so embarrassed. And then when I learned it was a joke I’d be so mad both myself for probably overreacting and at the joke itself. So I’d be stuck in a loop of hating everything it for days…

          1. Artemesia*

            Welcome to Teapots Inc; let’s humiliate you in front of your peers and watch you squirm. If you really make a fool of yourself we can throw it in your face for the rest of your time here.

            1. London Calling*

              Yes, a very brisk lesson that you can’t trust any of these people you have just started working with. What that does for the new people’s morale I can’t begin to imagine.

    2. Bea W*

      How do they take it usually? I personally think it’s hilarious, and seems like it would be generally harmless, especially working in tech where the execution might be better appreciated.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d probably find it funny but I can imagine people reacting in ways that would truly humiliate them and make them feel they had left footed their first day at work by making a fool of themselves.

    3. Wet Blanket / Stick in the Mud*

      I can understand that some people would find it funny. I wish they could understand some people won’t.

      I’d be job searching as soon as possible, if I were treated that way. I’d be upset and embarrassed, then I’d be embarrassed and feel *stupid* that I fell for a prank like that and had to deal with everyone laughing at me. (It’s actually quite possible that the stress I would feel would aggravate a health condition I have, also.)

      1. I'dProbablyCry*

        me too. I’m too anxious to handle that kind of public embarrassment if someone set me up for it deliberately.

    4. London Calling*

      Oh that’s a really funny thing to do to people in their first job who are probably already super anxious not to make a mistake and want to make a good impression. Not.

    5. Decima Dewey*

      “Obviously they don’t humiliate the employee for too long before letting them in on the fact that it’s a joke. :)”

      Is it even funnier when the new employee bursts into tears and runs out of the office?

      Sheesh.

    6. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think office pranks can be funny, but the fact that they’re doing this to a new hire is not the best first impression they could make. I might not quit over it if this happened to me on my first day, but I would definitely question how much I could trust my coworkers in the future and how well I would fit in if this was the office culture.

        1. nep*

          (I guess I would hope to pick up a bit of a vibe during interviewing so I could avoid such ugliness altogether. Sheesh is right.)

        2. Trillian*

          Me too. They’d lose me that day, even if I didn’t walk out at the moment. Years of school bullying under the guise of whycantshetakeajoke have left me with a very low tolerance.

    7. CatCat*

      Making new employees on the receiving end of sexual joke and making current employees play along… what could go wrong.

    8. nep*

      Wow — is this what passes for humour in some workplaces? I am appalled. Sounds more like some prank grade school or high school kids would play on new members of a club or something — and even in that case it would be awful.
      How sad.

    10. Floundering Mander*

      Yikes. Add me to the list of people who might just walk straight out of the door.

      That is very much not cool, especially for young people who are anxious to make a good impression in their first job. Strikes me as straight-up bullying.

    11. Observer*

      So, you’ve heard a number of people who have explained SOME of why this is NOT funny.

      Could you explain why you and the company think this is funny?

  109. LizB*

    We’re getting into fall weather (theoretically — there’s a flippin’ heat advisory in my city right now, but someday it will be real fall)! How do people deal with colder weather in their office? Space heaters? Blankets? A designated Office Cardigan? Lots of hot beverages?

    My office gets very cold in the winter (old building, poor insulation), so I blast my space heater at my legs when it’s really bad. I’m also considering bringing some different kinds of tea to the office — I love warm drinks, but don’t need all the caffeine I get from coffee, and we have a nice hot water faucet on our coffee maker.

    1. Murphy*

      The cooler it gets outside, the warmer my office gets, so you’re lucky your office follows weather patterns!

      I have a hoodie and fingerless gloves in my office.

    2. Bea W*

      I do have a “designated Office Cardigan”, not just for winter, but so that I don’t get frozen out in the summer. Warm drinks are super nice when it’s cold. I like to wrap my hands around my mug. When I was sitting in a space above the delivery bay (always open, not enough insulation between the floor and their ceiling), it was always super cold in the winter. I wore lots of layers, and heavy sweaters were my favorite.

    3. Kyrielle*

      Hot tea (or hot cocoa when I could still have it, or hot cider). Sometimes if I’m not in the mood for anything but water, I’ll put some cold water in a mug and then add hot water to it. Tea without the tea. (And I don’t have to wait for it to cool enough to drink. Order matters in my current office, though – our water dispenser puts out cold water faster, and it could cause a splash. I learn from my mistakes.) Warm lunches I can reheat in the microwave, instead of cold things like salads and sandwiches.

      Space heaters in offices where it’s allowed. Pestering, I mean politely making requests of, facilities in offices where it can be adjusted. Ye Olde Office Sweater, yep.

      I haven’t used these, but other things that might help that I’ve seen/heard of being used: heated throws, fingerless gloves (so you can type), *heated* fingerless gloves, heated mouse pads / keyboard gels….

      1. LizB*

        I just this week learned that if I email our facilities person, they can adjust the temp in our building from their phone! I had no idea our heater was even adjustable.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      My office is cold all year. I wear long sleeves all year, whether that’s a blouse or a cardigan over whatever top. I have a blanket, a heating pad, fingerless gloves, a heated mouse pad, and I use the warm liquid in the coffee mug to grip. Warm lunches are definitely needed also. Getting up and moving around helps also. Also, sometimes I cave and just never take my scarf off in the winter.

      1. LizB*

        Ooh, warm lunches are also a good idea. Maybe I should invest in a thermos so I can do soup. (And I have absolutely continued wearing my scarf, or even my coat, on really really bad days. I’m not client facing, so I’m gonna do what I gotta do.)

    5. Thursday Next*

      I don’t know, my building has always had good heating. But this year it’s under construction (work in a lab at a university) – other floors are being renovated – and apparently the radiators will be disconnected for the next few months (!!!). Space heaters will be available but this might be the time for me to invest in a work blanket.

    6. Essie*

      My office warms up in the fall, because the A/C finally gets turned off! I use a Snuggie all summer and am comfortable in the winter.

      I used to use a small space heater under my desk, but the skin on my legs dried out so much that I was scratching myself raw.

    7. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I work in a very drafty lobby, and I have one of those heated foot rests and it really does help. You can also stand it on it’s side next to your legs. We aren’t allowed space heaters (bummer) so this is the best they can do.

      1. LizB*

        I’ve never heard of heated foot rests! That would be so nice. Do you have a brand/model you would recommend?

        We’re not technically allowed space heaters, but we’re in a little weird satellite office, so nobody ever checks on us. I’m diligent about unplugging mine whenever I leave my desk for more than a bathroom run.

      2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Seconding the request for more info about heated foot rests! What I wouldn’t give for warm ankles…

    8. CheeryO*

      I’m cold in my office year-round. I have a big blanket scarf and a USB-heated mouse (probably not technically allowed but has flown under the radar thus far), and I wear medium-to-heavy cardigans all year long. Tea is also helpful, as is making sure my water is room temp instead of cold. It also helps to get up and walk around once an hour or so to keep the blood flowing.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      Blanket, tea/cocoa, cube/office sweater. At OldExJob, when I sat in front of the door, I often got really chilled during serious cold snaps even with a heater, so I would just keep my coat on. One time, it was so cold I kept my farm coveralls on all day! My boss didn’t say anything, to his credit. We didn’t deal with the public really, so only vendors and applicants were likely to come in, and of course they knew how cold it was outside.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      I always have a sweater on me, even in summer (air conditioning can be brutal here!). I have a fleece blanket at my desk that I use when I get really cold, and I drink hot water or make tea as well.

    11. periwinkle*

      My desk area is freezing cold the Whole Flippin’ Year, thanks to a huge space with an open floor plan and a vent nearby. I have a variety of blanket scarves (best things ever), ruanas, and pashimas with different warmth levels; I keep two in my desk drawer and never hesitate to grab the appropriate one whenever it’s needed.

      Tea is lovely, too.

    12. Chaordic One*

      My last job had very cold concrete floors. I ended up buying “thermal” insoles for my shoes, which helped quite a bit.

    13. Floundering Mander*

      I usually work outdoors, so it’s a bit of a different issue, but you’d be surprised how much warmer you are if you wear tights under your trousers, or those fleece-y tights.

      When I was at home working on my thesis I’d sometimes wrap a blanket around my legs. The corner of the house where my desk is was always freezing but it wasn’t worth the cost of heating up the whole house. I also had a “slanket” that I would wear like a giant robe, but that would probably earn you some strange looks in an office. ;-)

  110. ann perkins*

    I am three months into my new job and I think for the most part they are happy with me but this week has been a rough one so I’m feeling very down on myself. ugh.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I literally just yesterday described myself as being in the low point of the competence/confidence chart, after 6+ months — to my boss, while she was telling me I’m doing a good job! Then I confessed some random mistakes no one cares about.

      In short: I feel you.

    2. Umvue*

      Three months: long enough to have acquired a real portfolio of problems, short enough that you might not yet have the full toolbox for solving them.

      (I love your username! Just watching the back catalog of that show now :) )

  111. BarefootLibrarian*

    This is completely off topic, but I just met with one of my fellow faculty members to test out CBS’s app in one of our classrooms so we can host a launch party for the new Star Trek show, Discovery. Is anyone else here really stoked about this? Doing anything at work?

    Yes, college professors and librarians ARE geeks…why do you ask? ;)

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      I am stoked – or I would be, but why why why is it going out on CBS All Access? I don’t want to pay an extra $10/month or whatever it is on top of our already insane cable bill. It might be worth it for Trek, but I’m not happy about it.

      1. JN*

        Probably because they know there are lots of Trekkies out there who have wanted a new show, and they want people to sign up for and pay for their exclusive app, so they’re cunningly showing the pilot on tv and then “encouraging” people who want to know what happens next to get the app so they can keep watching.

        I was a bit excited too when I first heard about it, but then like you had the disappointment of realizing that I’d have to pay to watch it. I cut cable earlier this year to save money, and can watch regular CBS programming over my antenna for free, so I don’t see a need to pay for this app just to watch one show.

        2. copy run start*

          Yes, I coughed up for the first month but oh, the bar is HIGH for this. I really enjoyed Sonequa Martin-Green in TWD, so that’s part of why I did pay. I don’t get CBS via antenna due to mountains, but I also don’t get live CBS via All Access either so the $6/month isn’t a deal at all. I have a horrid suspicion the pay thing is going to backfire though and we’ll never get another Trek show because the viewer counts will be so low.

    2. Floundering Mander*

      Ah, I didn’t know we could actually get it in the UK on Netflix. Good! I’m not a huge Trekkie or anything but I’ve always enjoyed watching Star Trek. We’re on our second trip through Voyager right now, so this will give us something different to watch over dinner.

  112. Anna Held*

    For those who work with volunteers: what tips do you have for recruiting? What’s the one thing that’s worked best? I know there’s no magic, and I know we’re all fighting for the same small pool of volunteers, but I’m always hopeful!

    My tips — my best luck has been through Volunteer Match and, to some extent, networking. Idealist has been a complete bust, which surprised me. Arranging it so the work could be done weekends instead of weekdays has been helpful.

  113. Liane*

    We may have a new TV show besides “The Office,” “GoT,” and “Mad Men” for our work-related references, at least for Office Romances, End Of.
    College Son & I watched the first 2 episodes of “The Orville,” Seth McFarlane’s Star Trek spoof, which is pretty good as both satire and SF, this week. The Captain and First Officer are a formerly married couple. Ed and Kelly are a mixed bag as to how to handle this situation professionally. Both of them make digs at the other about the end of the marriage and who was (more) at fault, in front of others, crew or not–all of which are Bad, Bad Ideas. On the other hand, both of them are pretty good about not letting personal feelings get in the way of giving feedback about how well a work-related issue was handled by the other.
    The person who MOST needs to write Alison (or is most likely to be the subject of a letter to Alison!), however, is Gordon the Hotshot Pilot and Really Immature Co-Irker. He tells the whole bridge crew, in Ed’s absence (I think Ed would have called down his old buddy if he’d heard it), that Kelly is a B—. When he runs into Kelly, he tells her, “Hey, good to see you, I have your back. I told everyone how great you are.”
    Other workplace stumbling blocks are covered too.
    (Feel free to tell me it’s more weekend-ish, Alison)

  114. SophieChotek*

    Any tips on how to learn to be flexible and think “outside the box”?

    I basically just got an email from one of my bosses today in which she said I was too rigid and needed to learn to think outside the box more. (I’ll spare you my immediate defensiveness and explanations as to why I think she was off the mark in this particular instance).

    And yesterday my mother basically said the same thing, as I talked to her about how poorly my job search has been going. (Once again, I’ll spare you the defensiveness I feel when she says that, but may make another post on how do you put up with one’s parent’s helpful-yet-outdated-advice.)

    So while I think perhaps the issue my boss brought up isn’t completely fair, I think the larger issue probably has some merit.

    Any suggestion/strategies on how to work on those tendencies? How do you balance that with being “who you are” (i.e. I am a person who tends to like routine, does not think outside the box well, and probably would have been happier 50 years ago when careers seemed, if stories are to be believed, followed more traditional, clear-set trajectories)…

    Thank you!

    1. fposte*

      I’m a little like that. Okay, a lot like that. What’s made me be less like that is learning from people who are more creative in their approaches. Is there anybody you work with who’s good at that? You could even ask them about their thought processes, especially when there’s a specific instance, so long as you’re utterly clear you think that what they did was fabulous: “I’m trying to expand my approach, and I would never have thought of gluing the teapots to the ceiling–and it’s great! Can you tell me how you think about problems to come up with ideas like this?”

      I will say that sometimes risk aversion is a player in sticking to the box, and it’s not so much you didn’t think of putting the teapots on the ceiling as you thought of ways it could go wrong or that other people might think it was stupid. If that’s you, that’s another avenue to explore–could you gain more by getting out of your own way sometimes?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thank fposte.

        (I really do like your idea of trying to talk to someone who is good at the creative side – And here’s my “rigid” immediate “defense” responses come into play – unfortunately it’s the boss that I have such a difficult relationship with and that just yelled at me for being too rigid, missing the big picture, getting caught in the details, not thinking outside of the box/getting a new mindset – so honestly I would not feel comfortable talking with her about this. Objectively I do think she is an out of the box/more creative thinker than I am. She’s also just way more enthusiastic/passionate company about those luxury chocolate teapots…That said, maybe I do have friends in other fields/not at work, who are more creative and I can ask them…!)

        I think your comment about “risk aversion” is right one – thanks! I think that is exactly what I do – (especially when it comes to a job search) – I often talk myself out of applying for things – I call it “realism” or “pragmatism” – but I can usually think of 10 reasons why I wouldn’t hire me…so then I think “why bother?” when it comes to applying to anything. My mom is the annoying #1 fan who just goes on about “anyone would be lucky to have you!” sort of thing, so I always find myself coming back wth “well, but Company A really probably wants X, not Y…” sort of thing. Similar in business – when boss has had some creative ideas, I’ve probably been less than enthusiastic running with them, since I’m often thinking “that idea probably won’t work because…” which I suppose there are situations when the “but….” is good – but I probably do default to it too much!

        Thank you!

        1. Anono-me*

          Actually asking your boss to walk you through an ‘outside the box’ thought process might be the most helpful for your career at this company.

          First, you will get a better sense of what your boss means by the vague term ‘thinking outside of the box’.

          Second, it will show that you are taking her comments seriously.

          Third, you will get a better feel for the level of acceptable risk vs reward ratios at your workplace. fpost made a very good point about the role risk aversion can play in limiting creativity. It sounds like you may be making more conservative decisions than your workplace would prefer. Once you have a better understanding of where the risk limits are at your company, you will be much more comfortable approaching those limits.

          I do think following up with creative friends and possibly doing some reading on creativity will be more helpful in stimulating your own creative side.

          I would also like to suggest taking a creative arts class or creative writing class to help exercise your creative side.

    2. Science!*

      The problem I have with the phrase “thinking outside the box” is that it feels too vague for me to really act upon it. There are so many ways to think outside the box, and it depends on the field. Anything from thinking of more efficient ways to do something, coming up with whole new processes, asking questions, thinking of alternative methods and work-arounds.

      My field is all about answering questions with more questions and using information gathered to hypothesize about a larger issue; so thinking outside the box is about thinking beyond just the exact experiments to what they represent in a broader context.

    3. Overeducated*

      I approach it like a non-creative, methodical person would: I systematically look for creative models and different perspectives from elsewhere. Our “boxes” constrain our thinking, and one of the best ways to get out is by actually looking! From the outside, the end product of “adapting a successful model from another type of organization” or “approaching a problem from the expressed needs of an audience we’ve never bothered to directly ask before” can look a lot like “thinking outside the box,” it’s just founded in good research rather than sudden inspiration.

      This is how I approach my…increasingly unpredictable career path as well. Informational interviewing all over the place is the name of the game right now. As a risk averse person, I find it very comforting to hear from people who have been successful in different paths.

      And for applications, I really know the struggle of thinking on terms of how accomplished you are, not how you don’t measure up. But you have to remember, and if you want look for examples on LinkedIn, that that’s how your competitors are presenting themselves so you have to as well.

  115. Foot Solider*

    I’ve been at the same nonprofit for 5 years now. My job has changed quite a bit over time and I’m no longer doing what I’d really like to do. I have been looking for something more in my field for a while, back haven’t had much luck. My company has had a lot of lay offs and people quit. They never replace positions, just shift duties around. I am completely overworked (working 60+ hours a week regularly), but dedicated to the cause. I am reaching a breaking point though as it’s no longer the career I saw myself having, I haven’t had a raise in I don’t know how long, and I hate the feeling that I can’t ever feel good about my work because there’s always more that needs to be done urgently.

    I have an opportunity to leave. The position would pay more and I know others that work there that said it’s definitely an 8 to 5 job, but it’s a completely different field that I ever saw myself working in. I’m worried I won’t like the job and will wait to leave quickly. Is this something I should even consider or try and hold out for something more in my field? How hard would it be for me to leave nonprofits and then come back in a year or two?

    1. miyeritari*

      Given how unhappy you are in your present position, I think there’s very little to lose by trying something new, especially if your new potential employer thinks you’ll be a great fit and wants to hire you regardless of that you’re new to the field.

      Sure, you might not like it – but you also might realize you didn’t know how great this other thing could be, and maybe you’ll pick up some amazing new skills that will widen your abilities when (if?) you return to nonprofits.

  116. LittleLove*

    The Toxic Boss took what used to be a job I loved (reporter on a small town newspaper in real small town, not a suburb, but less than 10,000 in population in rural country) and it turned it into an absolute horror. My husband has been applying for jobs (again, SMALL town, not a lot of options) with the theory that as soon as he gets one with insurance, he will quit and I will try to hang on as long as possible. HOWEVER, after the last couple of weeks, we agreed to both quit. Period. I feel awful because this is the small town paper my mother worked on for 30 years but we can’t stand it. I am taking my anti-anxiety drugs at triple my usual dosage. He is just flat-out miserable. We are both nearing retirement (he is 64, I am 60) and have money saved. So for any of you who think a boss can’t be THAT bad, they can. The publisher has tried to deal with it but it is a basic personality issue AND the publisher is planning to retire soon due to health issues. The owner — let’s not go there. I didn’t think it was possible for one person to take a job I loved in an office that was friendly and upbeat and turn into a tension-laden pit of misery but it is. Not really asking for advice but just saying, yes, there is a point when your choice is sanity or employment and we are choosing sanity.

    1. fposte*

      I’m so sorry. Hard enough days as it is for newspapers; why add to the challenge? It sounds like you’re making a good decision.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I’m sorry. I hit that point with my last job, I know how devastating the impact can be on your health and sanity. I hope everything works out for you.

  117. Science!*

    I have a question about how casual jokiness in emails to someone who you don’t know well:

    So I was just at a career panel and one of the panelists works for a company near where I grew up (600 miles away from where I currently live). In fact, when I was in high school we took a field trip there my senior year to see their research and facilities. That was 15+ years ago.

    I enjoyed the panel and wanted to send an email to some of the participants thanking them for coming and introducing myself. I thought about telling the panelist that I grew up near her company and spent a day there in high school, but would that be weird since high school was so long ago? She wouldn’t have been at that company back then; I thought of mentioning in a “I’m very familiar with your company” kind of way.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think it would be weird. I’d probably present it as “it was so interesting to see someone from Company X, since I grew up in X Town and actually spend a day in the X facility on a field trip in 1999.”

      1. Science!*

        Thanks. I was thinking of that sort of phrasing, just wanted to bridge the gap from being overly formal (I tend towards being excessively formal in email but I want to sound approachable since one of the things the panelists mentioned was the importance of soft skills like communication.

    2. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I love receiving emails like that. So many of my emails are purely transactional, so I have a special folder to which I save the ones where someone wrote me something real. I also don’t hesitate to send something slightly less formal to people if there is a connection, and for the most part, people seem to appreciate receiving something a touch less robotic once in a while. I actually have some great workplace friendships that began like this, and it’s one of the reasons (I think) sometimes I can get things done when others can’t. I say go for it! The worst that can happen is that the person doesn’t respond.

    3. nep*

      I don’t think it would be weird at all. Doesn’t need to be put as an attempt at a joke — just more like a ‘by the way’, or ‘small world’…

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      off the top of my head–
      the coworker thief and intern frm this week
      The person who called her boss’s daughter a whore.
      Bird phobia
      the writer who insisted his employee wasn’t racist–I think the comments had to be closed on that one it was so heated!

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      WordPress shows me that with just the click of the button.

      The top three, all from this year:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/01/how-much-money-do-you-make-2.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/05/ask-the-readers-weirdly-dramatic-responses-to-mundane-office-changes.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired-i-dont-want-to-work-in-the-office-sick-bay-and-more.html

      The next two after that:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/07/my-best-employee-quit-on-the-spot-because-i-wouldnt-let-her-go-to-her-college-graduation.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/08/i-ghosted-my-ex-and-shes-about-to-be-my-new-boss.html

  119. Lady Dedlock*

    I just found out that my office has a policy where only two people have contact with salary information—apart from them, managers are not allowed to know their direct reports’ salaries. This seems odd to me (how could I advocate for a raise for a direct report if I don’t know what she’s making?), but I’m brand new to management. Is this a normal thing?

    1. It happens*

      Hot take of the day – Not normal. A big part of being a manager is dealing with staff and budgets. How can you do that without knowing salaries? So, not normal, suspicious, and unproductive.

    2. zora*

      Um, no. Not normal. I’m not a manager, but everywhere I have ever worked the head of the department was in charge of the department payroll budget, and therefore had at least part of the responsibility for deciding how much their staffers were each getting paid/how much to offer a new hire. Sometimes there was some other individual really involved in the decision, like one place with a really micro-managing CFO who would often argue with directors about the pay they were allowed to offer. But the director definitely had some say, and DEFINITELY knew how much all of their staffers were getting paid.

  120. fundraiserfran*

    I have an offer from Company A and Company B. Company A made an offer on Tuesday midday and asked to know my decision by the end of the week and Company B made a soft offer Tuesday late afternoon after I told them I had a competing offer. Company B is my first choice and they made a verbal offer Wednesday morning, which I verbally accepted, pending my review of the complete offer. They said they would send the offer paperwork by the end of the day Wednesday or early Thursday. I have not yet seen the paperwork and I’m hesitant to turn down Company A without a firm offer in hand from Company B. I emailed the hiring manager at Company B yesterday afternoon and asked when the paperwork would be sent – I still have not heard back. What should I do?

  121. Kathleen Adams*

    I saw something yesterday at an all-employee meeting yesterday that I wish I could unsee – and it’s all my own fault.

    The entire staff of approximately 60 people had had lunch, and we were sitting there listening to a guest speaker. People had shifted their chairs around so they could face the speaker, but we were all sitting in the same places we’d been sitting at during lunch, and this meant that I was sitting behind and slightly to the right of a coworker that I’m going to call Lucinda. So there we all are, listening to the guest, and I noticed that Lucinda was texting somebody – I mean, a lot. And I thought, ‘Well, that’s rude – and odd. I wouldn’t expect Lucinda to be so overly rude.’

    And this is the part that is entirely my own fault: I caught sight of some of Lucinda’s texts and…and she was sexting! Lucinda! Sexting! In an all-employee meeting while supposedly listening to a guest speaker! Lucinda who had spent the lunchtime discussing cookie recipes with me! (Really.)

    Well. Maybe I was mistaken. I saw only a couple of texts before dragging my eyes away with a firm “Stop that at once! This is none of your business, you nosy person!” But I don’t think I was mistaken (the little I saw was…let’s just call it “pretty explicit” and “disturbing” – no photos or anything, thank God, just words), and I do wish I could either unsee it or forget that I had ever seen it.

    Lucinda. Sexting. In a meeting surrounded by everyone she works with.

    Ugh.

    1. anon24*

      I had a co-worker who used to have phone sex type conversations with his girlfriend at the lunch table in front of my entire department (it was a high security factory job where we got paid 20 minute lunch and were not allowed go leave).

      I can definitely relate with the uncomfortableness.

      He also had a very graphic discussion with one co-worker about his girlfriend’s planned method of giving birth (She wasn’t even pregnant). I almost threw up.

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        Well, you’ve made me feel a bit better in that your experience sounds even worse.

        But Lucinda! Sexting! She isn’t married, and if she has a steady boyfriend, there is no possible way that she’d keep that a secret (trust me – she would have made sure we all knew), so she’s doing this with…OK, I don’t want to think about it lalalalalala ::fingers in ears:: lalaaaaaaalalalala. I can’t say she is the least likely person, but she is way up there on the Would Never Ever Do This Kind of Thing list.

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        No, he actually wasn’t. I guess…I guess Lucinda just had other things she’d rather do…

        lalalalalala ::fingers in ears:: lalaaaaaaalalalala!

        OK, I’m now going to think of something – anything – else besides Lucinda’s love life.

    3. Jen in Oregon*

      Someday. this will be really, really funny. I mean, someday it will be really funny to *you*; it’s really funny to me right now. :-)

      1. Floundering Mander*

        Yes, this. I don’t see how it can be the OP’s fault — Lucinda should know better than to be texting in a meeting like that!

    5. Kathleen Adams*

      Thank you, everyone. I still *really* wish I hadn’t seen what I saw, but you’ve made me feel a little less like a texting version of Mrs. Kravitz, and I do appreciate it.

      Jen, it is already a little funny, but the ickiness factor will outweigh the humor until I get a little distance from it.

  122. Can't Sit Still*

    My credit card has been invited to an event again – Happy Hour this afternoon. I wouldn’t mind, but the original invitation was a week ago, and my card was just invited this morning. I am in pain, I can’t drink on the pain meds I’m taking, and I was really looking forward to getting home on time. Plus, the host is the person who managed to get phenomenally drunk at a wine tasting last month. Completely falling down, arguing about GoT, showing off the NSFW tattoo, vomiting everywhere, passed out, blackout drunk from a wine tasting.

    It’s ok to be grumpy about having your corporate credit card invited places, right? I know it’s work and not social, and my card’s attendance isn’t optional, but it would have been nice to know ahead of time. The event really should have been paid for in a different way, but they are so used to just doing their own thing without thinking about it.

    1. Merida Ann*

      I don’t really understand what you mean by your card being invited. Are you saying you have to come to use your corporate card to pay for everyone else? Is there no one else with a corporate card that could be used?

      Can you just say that you already have a commitment this afternoon and can’t make it? Just because your commitment is secretly to go home and rest for your personal health don’t make it any less of an appointment, and no one else needs the details of what you have on your schedule.

      Or, if you absolutely have to be there to use the card to pay, can it be set up with the restaurant ahead of time? Or find some other way to bill it to your company without you having to be there? What would they do if you had gotten sick today and had to go home early? Surely there is some alternative option.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Yes, I hold the department credit card. My boss is the only other person that has a corporate card and she didn’t know if she was going to be able to make it.

        I am really not amused at being invited to things just because I’m the one with the credit card. It’s a weird quirk of our company that they are working on. I think there are some other issues at play here, though. I am usually the only white person with the group, and I am in control of the money. Unfortunately, it wouldn’t shock me if they get better service when I’m there. I’ve seen hosts and waitstaff straighten right up and magically find tables and space and respect once I appear and start waving the corporate AMEX around.

        It’s been hinted a couple of times that’s one of the reasons they hired me. Not the main reason, but it was a factor. And I’m really good at my job, there’s that.

        So I feel petty for resenting it sometimes.

        Anyway, it was a success, and I didn’t have to stay late and even got home at a reasonable time. No one got horribly drunk this time, either.

        Tl;dr: Racism sucks and if I’m tired of dealing with it, I’m sure I can’t imagine how my team feels about it.

        Wow, that was really a buried lede, sorry about that!

        1. Floundering Mander*

          LOL yes indeed that was a buried lede!

          Is it just one restaurant that you notice this effect at? Presumably not, which sucks, but maybe a change of venue is in order.

          Also I wonder if you’d be able to go and set up a pre-paid tab for X amount and then leave, allowing the staff to order whatever up to the amount of the tab. I’ve been to several company parties where they did this.

        2. Observer*

          Oh, wow!

          Yeah, your staff must be seriously SICK of this kind of nonsense. But, I don’t blame you for being ticked.

    2. zora*

      Yeah, I would push back on this. If they “should have” organized paying for it in a different way, then they need to face some consequences for once.

      If you usually go along and make this work for everyone, you are allowed to once in a while say No, without being a terrible person. I mean, what would they do if you had gotten appendicitis this morning and had to go to the hospital? Or some other emergency?

      I full support you saying “I really wish you had told me ahead of time. I absolutely can’t stay tonight. I’m sorry that makes things harder for you, but this is a bad day for me, and I need to know ahead of time in the future.”

      They will never remember they have to change their process unless they have CONSEQUENCES for just doing their own thing every time.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Can you tell them that your credit card will only attend X number of events per month? And that your credit card reserves the right to decline any invitations that don’t allow Y days of notice? Or your credit card gets nauseated when people vomit, so any gathering will be over once the vomiting starts?

  123. Nervous Accountant*

    someone interviewing for a position here started adding and/or msging everyone from our company on linked. in… it’s so….bizarre.

    2. Floundering Mander*

      Eep. I’m nervous about just looking at people’s profiles in case they think I’m stalking them, let alone trying to add them all as contacts.

  124. Jenna*

    Does anyone have advice about going back to college past the standard 18-22 time frame? I started college at 18 on a full scholarship but due to depression and other mental health problems, I had to drop out. I’ve been working ever since, but I’d really like to go back to school so I can work more challenging and high-paying jobs. I’m 23 now and I work full time. Is community college the better option so I can get something done in 2 years and get back in the work force? Or is it worth it to try and get a bachelor’s? I have continuing mental health problems, so working full time and going to school full time is just really not an option. I’m also no longer eligible (as far as I can tell) for scholarships after failing that semester back when I was 18. Any advice?

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      I think it depends on your intended field. Does an AA have any utility in the field you hope to work in? And of course the other question is, which can you best afford?

    2. FormerOP*

      Hi Jenna! I volunteer for a non-profit that assists students like you with starting college in our city. Most students attend our local community college, but there are other paths. Good for you for thinking about starting again! You are well within the age range of what is considered a “typical college student.” Broadly speaking, starting college at 18 and finishing exactly four years later at 22 is more the exception than the norm. Do some research for your area to see if there are programs like the one that I work with, I bet there are. Some folks do one class per semester, and if that is what you can handle, that is fine! Be sure to ask for help, it is out there are there are many people who want you to succeed.

    3. J*

      I went to college for two years, dropped out for four, and went back to finish for the last two of my bachelor’s. I stayed out specifically because I wanted to wait until I was old enough to file for financial aid without my parents’s salary. I may have lost some scholarship that way, but ultimately it was a wash because my own income was relatively modest.

      I was stubborn and refused to consider transferring to a less expensive school (my alma mater is one of the most expensive in the US). While it’s fine now, I don’t know that that was the best choice I could have made. For me, it was stubbornness and pride that made me stick it out when there were other ways to get the BA I wanted.

      Doing both school and work full-time seems like it might be a stretch. If you’re not in a hurry to graduate, take your time about it. An additional year before you get your degree isn’t going to make much difference in the long-run, and your mental health is important.

    4. Becca*

      Hi, Jenna! I’ve been in a similar boat—I had about a year of college under my belt before I had to drop out due to health (mental and physical) and finances. I worked for ~4 years, then went to community college to get an AA, which I finished 2 years ago. I’m planning on working towards a bachelor’s degree starting in the spring at the local state university. I’m 27 now.

      The great thing about community college is that it’s much more affordable. If you’re not sure what field/major you’re looking to go into, I think a general AA (which is what I have) is a good start. If you are planning on getting a full bachelor’s degree, community college can still be a really good first step to get back into the school swing of things. I also found that my CC professors were very receptive to engaged students, which will help with recommendations. Good luck and congrats on a new stage in life :-)

  125. Wired mouse*

    I work in a banking/tech company; at my site, we have gone from about 600 employees to under 300. Reorganization and layoffs are happening globally; my business unit is in a hiring freeze and just this week, we have had 5 installers, programmers, and operations directors leave plus a senior manager re-ogred out days shy of his 35th work anniversary.

    I’m starting to search, am gearing up to have all my ducks in a row, but how do I fake a ‘give a damn’ attitude when I don’t? I’m too damn old to start from scratch and honestly, if I didn’t feel that this location will be made redundant, I would have liked to finish my career here. Great manager, like coworkers, but just such a pervasive feeling of unease throughout the company.

    1. Artemesia*

      Start giving yourself daily pep talks in your head; if you want to job search you do have to feel it to come across as energized and interested. Think about it as an adventure in getting out of the rut as a last act for your career. Start thinking about all the new and interesting things you might have one last swing at.

  126. What?*

    So I got a cold call from a recruiter on Wednesday, asking me if I’d like to discuss a position that they have open. I spoke with the recruiter ten minutes ago. It’s for my position at my organization, and the recruiter confirmed my suspicions directly (she actually volunteered that information).
    What the hell do I do now? Should I email my boss or HR or both? The office is closed today for Rosh Hashanah.

    1. Anna Held*

      Work on your resume and start job hunting. Then speak to your boss asap. Go to HR if your interview with your boss isn’t useful, or go directly to them if you have more faith in them or are on poor terms with your boss.

      Is it possible you’re in line to be moved to another position, or they’re opening up a position, and that’s why they’re hiring? In other words, don’t go in screaming if it turns out you’re being promoted (I take it from your tone this isn’t likely, but crazy things happen, right?) Even if you’re being fired, know that whatever mistakes you may have made, this sort of screw up says nothing good about your company. You might be glad in the long run.

    2. Murphy*

      Uh…is it possible they’re hiring another person?? Yeesh, that sucks.

      Definitely talk to your boss.

      Did the recruiter not know where you currently work?

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      If she’s scatty enough to have contacted the person whose job it is, I can’t help wondering how good her intel is. I’m sorry though, this must be really stressful.

    4. What?*

      Hi all –
      Thanks for the comments. Yes, the recruiter volunteered the name of the organization that I work at to me – it sounded like she hadn’t reviewed my resume before she called for the interview. The job description was similar to mine, so I was slightly concerned, but was trying to be optimistic.

      No, there’s no chance that I know of that I’m in line for a promotion unless they wanted to change my title and then have me hire my replacement, which doesn’t seem to be the case right now.

      I’d talk with my boss but I don’t know that I can trust her. I spent some time reviewing our handbook, which says that we have an open door policy for all employee concerns and that we can talk with HR at any point, so I contacted them and asked that we speak immediately on Monday. I get along great with everyone, and people rave about my work (at least to me) and demeanor, so I am completely flat-footed on this.

      Yes, it’s stressful as hell, and I’m fighting back spinning into a depression or utterly blowing a gasket. I’m trying to keep my wits about me, and I’ve already started hunting for other work. I can’t take that chance that they give me the boot on Monday when they realize what’s happened, if they haven’t already found out. I have no idea for what the protocol is when a recruiter screws up like this.

      So much for a relaxing holiday weekend.

      1. Anna Held*

        Can you access your email or other documentation from home? If so, document all thanks and praise, feedback from your boss, etc. Also, contacts who might act as a reference. This completely sucks and I’m sorry.

  127. Free Meerkats*

    Had a discussion with my boss and his boss this morning. They have no issues with me getting my hair and beard dyed with semi-permanent pink (Cotton Candy here: https://www.manicpanic.com/amplified-squeeze-bottle ).

    This is a test run for my Worldcon costume for next year. I think I’ll wait until after the first of the year, we have a major state inspection coming up end of December. I’ll post a picture here when it’s done.

    1. Emi.*

      FYI, I used Manic Panic Amplified (one of the reds, but I don’t remember which one) and it always bled a little in the shower, so be careful with light-colored towels! And have fun!

    2. CheeryO*

      I think I’ve mentioned before that I’m on the state government side of your field (hope it’s not too creepy that I remember that!). I’d be tickled pink (heh) to meet someone in the field with pink hair/beard, but I can see why you’d want to wait. Very cool that your boss doesn’t mind.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        I’ve been told I’m memorable, so I don’t think it’s creepy. Maybe I’ll see you at a NACWA conference sometime. I’ll be the bearded guy in the kilt and Aloha shirt.

  128. Juxtapose is Just a Pose*

    Is there a polite way to flag for my boss that I’m not work friends with someone because they’re a dock to me?

    I don’t need my boss to do anything about the jerks, but I’m finding that sometimes people are polite to my (objectively cool) boss but not to me (his female report with an enviable job in a male-dominated corner of the world). Again, I don’t generally need him to do much, and I’m always professional in the face of assholery, but I just worry that this is happening enough that I might start to look antisocial myself.

  129. Lln*

    I’m curious to see what the AAM community thinks about an FML post I spotted the other day. Obviously it might be fake but I thought it was an interesting discussion point nonetheless. It reads: “today. I was fired from my job because a recruiter advised me to lie on my application. I wasn’t stupid enough to actually lie, but management didn’t care and fired us both.”

    The knee jerk reaction of everyone in the comments was that this was a horrible injustice, because of course. But then I got to thinking about reasons why this could make sense. Would you ever advocate “cleaning house” like this if you found out you had an in house recruiter who was so unethical? I can see how some industries might view the OP as a too risky of a hire based on who was vouching for her, though it does seem unfair on the face of it.

    1. Back from the Grave, just in time*

      I mean, there’s not a lot of information there, it’s worded really weird. They didn’t lie, but let the recruiter lie on their behalf? Or maybe the recruiter straight up hired them for a job they couldn’t do, in which case they lied to both parties.

  130. Athena*

    My co-worker is creepy and gives me really bad vibes. He *constantly* talks about sex and somehow manages to bring it up in a conversation even if the conversation has nothing to do with it. He leers at women and used to make comments about them until I called him out on it. If he can bring child porn into the conversation you better believe he will. Monday he called his neighbor, a 6 year old girl, a “Pedophile’s dream” because she doesn’t have a father figure in the house and her mom doesn’t have a steady partner. It makes me sick to my stomach to listen to the stuff he says sometimes. I also recently had a very major surgery which he overheard while I was talking to a close co-worker and spread the news around the office while I was out for FMLA. Since I’ve come back he’s asked intrusive questions, asked when I planning on buying a new wardrobe (“My wife wants to know” – buddy I don’t even know your wife), and refers to my surgery as purely cosmetic. The surgery saved my life.

    Is there *anything* I can do about this? I push back in the moment and shut the conversation down but it hasn’t stopped. My boss is aware of some of the colorful, offensive things he’s said in the past. I approached boss with a list of crap he said, one of them outright objectifying a woman standing in the office, and he called co-worker in to talk to him and told him I was the one who turned him in. My stomach gets a sick feeling when co-worker gets to work in the morning and it makes it worse that we have to share an office. I have nowhere else in the office to go.

    1. Alice*

      You’ve tried the boss, now go to HR and file a complaint about sexual harrassment. Even if he’s not talking to you directly, if he’s making you uncomfortable,and he knows it, and has been spoken to about it before, he’s basically been put on notice. By not doing anything , your company is opening themselves up to liability when someoneone finally decides to sue.

    2. Kathleen Adams*

      First, blechyyuckyblech. How nasty.

      Second, talk to your boss again and make sure he knows what an eNORmous problem this is – not just for you but for all decent people. The problem isn’t that he’s offending you – the problem is that he is saying things that no decent person should say anywhere, much less in an office. It’s absolutely got to come to a stop.

      Third, if you can manage it (and I wouldn’t blame you if you can’t), be reeeeeeally firm and outspoken with Creepy McCreepster. You say you’ve “called him out on it,” so maybe you’ve already done this, but if you’ve been subtle, you might consider being really unsubtle, e.g. “I can’t believe you said that. It’s gross and inappropriate. I don’t want to hear anything like that ever again.”

      I’d certainly understand it you can’t bring yourself to say that – I mean, he’s so horrrrrrrrible! – but if you can manage it, it might make you feel a little less powerless.

      1. Anna Held*

        Do you know where he lives? Can you contact the mother of the child next door? If not, I’d call CPS in your area. He sounds like a pedophile and HE LIVES NEXT DOOR. He’d do it if he thought he could get away with it, and to an extent, he is getting away with his gross conduct at work.

        If you think this is going too far — and I don’t know that it is, at all; she’s 6, she can’t protect herself! — call Childhelp. They’ll help you sort through how to handle this. 1-800-422-4453

        1. Floundering Mander*

          This is where my mind leapt. Is there any way you can send an anonymous complaint to the police about his comments about the kid? And his frequent references to child porn?

          I’m pretty relaxed about sexually explicit joking and might just shrug off his insistence on making sexual comments about adults, but the pedophile comments have my hackles raised.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. This is horrible and textbook sexual harassment / creating a hostile work environment. Well, you’ve already told your boss, so he and your company are legally liable. Keep documenting. And, I hate to say it, but you might want to look for another job. Retaliation is illegal, but it still happens.

    4. Snark*

      “Monday he called his neighbor, a 6 year old girl, a “Pedophile’s dream”

      NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.

      Go straight to HR and your boss, do not pass go, do not tolerate this further. This is sexual harassment. It doesn’t have to be about him having sex with you, or topics related thereto, to qualify as sexual harassment. And if he knows, so what. This person needs to be nailed to the wall.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      Do not go to HR, immediately send an email with the subject line of “Official Report of Sexual Harassment” and lay it all out. Then forward a copy to your personal email, a friend’s email, and print a couple of copies, one that you take home with you.

      With the email and that subject line, they can’t use the “We didn’t think it was a serious complaint” excuse if nothing is done.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This. If your boss did nothing, it’s time to make a formal complaint. This shit is serious business and is a huge liability for the company (besides being super gross).

    7. nep*

      Classic sexual harassment / hostile work environment. So sorry you’re having to deal with this. Utterly unacceptable and he and the company should be held accountable. I’m no expert on how that should go down — are there guidelines as to how to handle this at your workplace? Whom to go to next?

    8. Observer*

      As others have said regarding the workplace stuff. EMAIL to HR with an explicit title that this is a complaint of sexual harassment. Make a log of each event, what happened with your boss, etc. And keep adding to it. Keep this log on YOUR PERSONAL EQUIPMENT, not your work computer.

      If you don’t get any useful results from HR, go to the EEOC.

    9. ..Kat..*

      The Department of Homeland Security is very interested in people who are interested in child porn and pedophiles.

  131. Database Geek*

    Found this site recently and I love it. Anyway, I’m job searching right now and I’ve had a few interviews and I was wondering if people generally memorize the questions they’re going to ask or is it reasonable to look at my notes while thinking of questions? I’ve been checking my notes for the exact wording so I don’t stutter out the question but maybe that’s not the right thing to do either…

    1. Alice*

      I usually have them written down on the padfolio i bring along – that way, i don’t forget one. I don’t think it’s uncommon. Just make sure to have a back up queston or two, if they actually answer your questions during the interview discussions.

    2. katamia*

      I often don’t know exactly what I’m going to ask in an interview because sometimes my “normal” questions are answered, other times they say something that really piques my interest, etc. I don’t bring notes during interviews. I’m willing to be wrong about this, but if I were interviewing other people (I never have), I might not think it would look great to be reading too closely off of notes instead of being fully present in/responding to the conversation. If you can position them so that they’re sort of between you and your interviewer and you can still kind of act like you’re looking at the interviewer instead of putting your head all the way down and making it very clear that you’re Reading From Your Notes, that might be okay, though.

  132. LBK*

    Anyone have tips for recovering emotionally/mentally from making a huge work mistake? My boss is aware and we’re handling it in terms of business impact, but I feel extremely shaken in my confidence and I’m concerned about my reputation. My current plan is to just stress-eat all the Cheez-Its in the vending machine, which is helping but probably isn’t a good long-term solution.

    1. Anna Held*

      1) Have a set time to obsess over your mistake; 2) have a set time to stress-eat or indulge in other distractions; 3) cut yourself off after that time, and work towards a better future. So, wallow this weekend, then go in early Monday and get to work. Put your new work plan (you have one, yes? If not, develop one, just for yourself) in a place you’ll see it and stay focused. Maybe your rep will take a hit, but how hard is manageable. Take responsibility but don’t flagellate yourself (or remind people unnecessarily that you screwed up, or you’ll label yourself as the office screw up). Just keep your head down, be pleasant and cheerful, and work hard. Get your job description, plan, and whatever notes you have from meetings with your boss so you can stay focused on what you really need to be doing and how to do it well, and stick to it. Don’t be so focused that you screw something else up, though — take some time each week to reassess your overall performance. Keep your boss in the loop.

      Good luck! You’re half way there — you know you screwed up and you want to fix it. People are fallible.

      1. Red*

        This is great advice, and is my general plan when I screw up.

        I made my second mistake of year this past week (I’m only allowed 1 per year ;) ), and was so So angry with myself. After yelling at myself in the car (I have a cube) I told my boss and let him know how I was going to fix it. I then went home, stomped around the living room (1), called some of my colleagues at other agencies (1), and had wine, snacks, and whinging with the neighbor on the patio (2). Saturday was devoted to gardening (3a) and flushing out the latest idea I had given to my boss (3b). My (4) may also include watching Fight Club…

        My colleagues snickered at my (not big or life threatening) mistake, and shared their own and other EOY tales. Yes, we all make mistakes, I’m just particularly bad at having made one. A fellow redhead reminded me they are still trying to measure up to the bar I had set when I was there, so I just need to get over myself (5). She is a good friend +smile+ At least I’m not the person (not one of my colleagues, a different function) who’s responsible for not having enough $$ for the Sept. payroll…

    2. Construction Safety*

      Some perspective:

      We had a new account manager send a proposal to the wrong Mr. Wilson (very wrong). It cost the company over $10 million.

      She survived.

    3. Elisabeth*

      The most important thing people want to see is that you take ownership over what was your responsibility, acknowledge that it’s serious, and immediately put work into fixing it.

      Beyond that? If this work mistake did not put someone’s life in danger, then it’s not a mistake worth agonizing over. Honestly. I say this as someone who has dealt with a ton of anxiety over work mistakes when it really wasn’t worth the stress. People are human, people make mistakes, and if you don’t work in a hospital or an ER, please please don’t let it take up valuable space in your heart and brain.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Everyone makes mistakes. Honestly.

      My IT manager friend arranged a campus move and forgot to book any movers. He was not fired.

    5. nep*

      Remember that the very task of handling this is a huge opportunity to show what you’re made of and how you can really rise above. Keep that in the forefront of your mind so that when you feel your confidence at a low, you know you need to throw those shoulders back and be the best you know you can be. You’ve got an opportunity here to shine.
      I made a huge mistake at work several months back — I was in such a deep, dark hole. Felt like the world was crashing in around me. It was serious, but of course I magnified it in my mind. I think we all do that.
      I owned it and I talked very openly with my supervisor about it. I really stepped up my game.
      Just know that 1) Everyone makes mistakes at work, and 2) This too shall pass. (And you really can take it as a chance to show your stuff.)
      All the best and keep us posted.

    6. Anion*

      A little story for you:

      Periodically, I have dreams in which I have killed someone (usually accidentally). These dreams are troubling, and I wake up feeling awful. AWFUL.

      Then I realize I didn’t actually kill anyone, it was just a dream. And I feel better.

      Because I realize that there is no mistake I can’t fix or come back from, no mistake that time cannot make smaller, no damage that cannot be eventually repaired, as long as no one is actually dead.

      You didn’t kill anyone. So it might suck while it’s happening, but eventually it will be a distant memory, and you can fix the damage to the best of your ability.

      I hope that helps.

    7. LBK*

      Thanks all. Feeling much better today after some quality time with friends this weekend to take my mind off things. And I was checking my emails all weekend and didn’t have any urgent or panicked follow ups, so I’m hoping that after I got people the corrected info they needed things just went ahead as planned and at this point it is what it is.

      I think my main concern is that I’ve been getting huge praise for my work on this project for months now and then all of this happened on literally the last day before it was implemented – it just kind of sours the whole thing and I feel like it negates a lot of the good work I put in up to this point, since there’s no more time on this project to make it up. But I’m hoping that my history of strong work up until this point will speak for itself/speak louder than this one issue, even if it was a pretty major issue.

    4. zora*

      Hold on a second I’m vomiting into my trash can rn.
      ……………………………………..
      UGH, people are the worst. This is just so disgusting.

      And it perversely makes me feel a little better. I’ve worked in some obnoxious environments, but I’ve never had to deal with this level of insanity! Lucky me! [/snark]

  134. Back from the Grave, just in time*

    My husband is re-starting his job hunt, for the first time since he’s started therapy and medication. Before now it’s been long gaps of unemployment, between 2-3 month gigs of being fired or let-go without a reference. I’m crossing my fingers that the stress that comes with finding and performing minimum wage work doesn’t set back his recovery too hard. Bring on the Holiday Season!

    1. twig*

      Good Luck to you and your husband.

      My husband is in a similar place right now — well actually before that place. He’s put his job search on hold and he’s going through a medication adjustment and getting back to therapy.

      Your husband’s work history sounds similar to my husband’s.

      Take care of yourselves. I’ll be rooting for him.

  135. NotALemur*

    Everyone’s favorite topic: post-interview follow-up. I interviewed a few weeks back, and just wanted to check in to find out their current timeline, as I’m trying to decide whether to go with some desperation alternatives (i.e. Target holiday work, temp agency) or hold out a little longer. The situation was promising enough that I don’t want to totally write it off yet. I got the interview via a contact at the company who I would probably be working with were I to be hired, but coordinated everything through the in-house recruiter, who I established some rapport with during the process.

    Should I follow up with the recruiter or with my initial contact? (My instinct is the former.) I don’t want to reach out to both, at least not at the same time, as that would seem to be a little overkill…

    1. Anna Held*

      I’d go with the recruiter. And remember Alison’s advice: assume you don’t have it and make other plans. Let it be a lovely surprise if you do get the call.

      1. NotALemur*

        Thanks – ironically, I’m mostly not wanting to screw over any back-up plan place by assuming I don’t have it and then finding out they’re still evaluating. I figure if I find out a timeline, I’m less likely to sign up somewhere only to back out the next day… But maybe I’m over-thinking all of that!

  136. TGIF*

    A coworker retired a few months ago and has filed for unemployment benefits. Now we’re having conversations about whether HR should say we’ll rehire him, which would have implications for the person we’ve hired to fill his position.

    Apparently voluntarily retiring doesn’t make you ineligible for unemployment? I just don’t understand this.

    1. Back from the Grave, just in time*

      Could be resigning vs. actual retiring. Unemployment qualifications are ridiculously varied from state-to-state.

        1. fposte*

          A lot of people do do a soft retirement with a move from a career to a low-impact job, but I wouldn’t expect them to file for UI in the mean time.

          1. Natalie*

            Even if they did, I don’t see how they’d qualify in most cases. “Retirement” isn’t functionally any different from a voluntary quit, and usually you have to have mitigating circumstances for a voluntary quit to be eligible for unemployment.

            1. fposte*

              I was thinking of health stuff, but you’re right, a straight out voluntary quit isn’t likely to get you eligibility.

            2. TGIF*

              I wish I could see Bob’s unemployment claim and his description of events. Kind of doubt HR will share though. All I’ve heard so far is what I put above – Bob retired, filed for unemployment, and now our team needs to decide if we’re willing to rehire him if he’s willing to work. I think HR will fight the unemployment claim if we’re willing to rehire him.

      2. TGIF*

        Anything is possible, I guess. From my view it was friendly and very deliberately planned in advance. And I doubt we’d be debating rehiring Bob if he’d been fired in secret.

    3. NacSacJack*

      wow, apparently you can collect unemployment and retirement at the same time, especially if you went back to work at another job and then got laid off. It may be that he would like to continue working. Oftentimes our 401K financial advisors will counsel a employee to retire early or that they should have already retired because whatever income they might make in the near future is not increasing their retirement benefits. So he may have been advised to retire from your company to reap the rewards but was not ready to quit wroking.

  137. burnout*

    Is it possible to recover from burnout and learn to like your job again? I’ve taken a few vacations this year to take the edge off, but I can’t shake this constant feeling of unhappiness and like the world is on my shoulders. We’re short-staffed and it feels like it will never, ever end (think government). I’ve been here a long time and have been able to ride out the ups and downs okay, until the past year. My workplace as a whole is good, but I just can’t seem to adjust my attitude and feel happy again.

    1. winter*

      I would say this is generally possible, but it sounds like your job just isn’t providing you the right environment. I’d find it hard to re-cover while still being short-staffed.
      Basically it’s not you, it’s them.

    2. TGIF*

      Yes, I believe it’s possible. But usually something has to change. An internal transfer to a new team, a new boss, successfully ending a huge pain in the ass project, hiring more staff to dramatically ease the load, etc.

    3. Lynca*

      From my experience yes. We’re currently short staffed (and will remain so -government).

      Something always has to change and in my case, management and I had to finally have a talk about unsustainable workloads. They thought I was fine (I wasn’t) and we came up with ways to address the workload so I could breathe a little. I know not all management is approachable about this but if they are, I would recommend it.

  138. AnonforThis*

    I was hoping to get some advice. I am doing a temporary management assignment and I am not enjoying it. Some of the details of management are just not fun to be and my temporary boss is very micromanaging. But temp boss still seems to assume that I am going to commit to the full job when this is up (I committed to a set month period, the full job would require another application). How do I handle this? I don’t want to lead on but making clear I won’t be staying on with a few months left will likely make my time unpleasant.

  139. AnonYmusNow*

    I know it’s a little late but I’ve been having questions for weeks and couldn’t really decide what to ask. I was wondering if anyone here works with patents, or is a patent lawyer?

    Basically I want to file a provisional patent myself, but I know it’s going to drive me crazy to do it, so I’ve been wondering, would a patent lawyer or agent review my paperwork and offer feedback? I’m trying to avoid the huge fees I read about online if you work with a lawyer, and instead of them filing it, I’d love someone who works with applications to just review and minor feedback for a smaller fee. Is this something they might do?

    (I’m a long way from doing this but want to get my facts down on the process before I really start. Also not my usual username.)

    1. Temperance*

      The Federal Circuit Bar Association runs a program nationwide for patent attorneys to provide pro bono legal services to inventors who fit certain income qualifications. I recommend checking that program out to see if you are eligible for free services. If you are, the attorney will handle the application and you’ll only be on the hook for the filing fees.

      1. Lilo*

        This is good advice. Patents are a particularly complicated area of the law and even if you navigate to registration successfully without an attorney, small things in the patent could affect enforceability. It is a nuanced and difficult area of the law and much better to have legal guidance.

      2. AnonYmusNow*

        Thanks!
        Ha, so I looked it up for my state, make about $200 more a year than the requirement, lol. Might ask anyway since it says “In general” serve those who don’t exceed that certain level of income.
        Thanks again for the tip.

        1. Temperance*

          Apply anyway! Seriously, it never hurts to ask. If you don’t qualify, they might have some “low bono” suggestions for you.

  140. winter*

    I have a question for the readers: What is the optimal time to wait before answering via company-wide messenger if you want to discourage people from pinging you all day?

    Currently I am a person who will answer pretty much immediately, even if it means I’m interrupting myself (I have to task-switch fairly often, so it’s quite easy for me to do this). The downside is that I believe I’m training people to ping me all the time even if they could find the info somewhere else or maybe just want to chat and it’s not actually that important.
    As this is still a disruption to my workflow, I’d be interested in your strategies to cut down on messages.

    1. LAI*

      I vary my response time based on how often the person asks me for help and how often they ask things that they could have looked up themselves (there’s one person who, when I see her name pop up, I don’t even read the message until I reach a good stopping point for myself). If it’s something easy to find out, I’ll sometimes just reply with a hint to help them find it like “oh, check your email from the Teapots office from last week”, or “here’s the link”.

  141. JustaTech*

    If I’m flying with coworkers on a work trip (unusual for us) would it be rude if I used my husband’s guest upgrade to fly home first class? It’s a cross-country flight and I don’t think we’re sitting together.

    2. periwinkle*

      When I fly for work, I never hesitate to pay for an upgrade in money or miles if the flight is long or I just feel like being decadent. We all book our flights separately and don’t expect to spend the flight time together. It’s enough that we’re spending the rest of the trip together!

  142. Someone who talks about this on the weekend free for alls*

    Those who’ve left abusive relationships.

    Did you need to take time off work? Was your work helpful about it?

    My line manager knows what’s going on and is mega supportive and has found out I could use unpaid special leave if I need to.

    I think I might need to but I don’t want to have to. Just wondering if anyone else has any data points.

    1. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

      I don’t have much personal experience, but you may be able to find good advice over at Chump Lady! So sorry that you’re going through this.

      1. SWTATOTWFFAs*

        Thanks Effie. I haven’t seen you update for a while (might have just missed it) I hope you’re doing well.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Yes, in my first job out of university. My editor just told me to take whatever time I needed and didn’t count it as leave (this was for a very small, very unprofessional company where the upside was things like not having to formally account for days off). That’s probably not the most relevant example, but still.

      I strongly suspect there would be reasonable grounds for your doctor to sign you off with stress, thus entitling you to sick leave.

      1. SWTATOTWFFAs*

        I’m wondering about getting a fit note to work half time. It might be helpful to retain some normality. But yeah my GP (and my backup GP) both know about what’s going on and have basically said they’ll do whatever they can to help.

        My plan means I am on a max 50 day countdown of having to live like this. I can’t sleep, it’s bloody awful. And when I leave it’ll still be awful, but at least differently awful and moving forward awful, yannow?

        And also, I’m sorry you’ve been thrift this :(

  143. Librarian Ish*

    I’m in the process of researching MLIS programs. I know there are a lot of librarians here, so I was wondering if anyone had tips for choosing a school. I know the answer to that is highly individualized based on a lot of factors, but crowdsourcing some general thoughts would be really useful. How much has your choice of school affected your library career? If you’ve ever done hiring for academic librarian positions, how much weight did you give to the schools listed?

    I’m particularly interested in San Jose State University, so if anyone has specific thoughts about their MLIS program, I’d love to hear it!

    I’m particularly interested in working in academic libraries. My undergraduate degree is in chemistry, so my ideal job is a science librarian. Oh, and I’m only going to look at ALA-accredited schools.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. Borgette*

      My husband chose to go with the only accredited program in-state. It made sense financially, and the library he works for pays a portion of the tuition for that program.

      1. Tooots*

        Go with whatever ALA-accredited program is cheapest and easiest. In state or online. The name doesn’t matter, imho, even for academic libraries. Also don’t bother hurting yourself trying for a 4.0. The degree is a piece of paper; focus on building personal connections and a good reputation with related work experience and professional associations/committee work.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      It really depends on your goals. I couldn’t do a program in my state (my state didn’t have any), so I chose to apply to schools that offered funding and were highly ranked. You have to decide what is important to you.

      I don’t care where people went to school when I hire. I sometimes notice if they went to the same school as me, but really I don’t care much. I’m far more concerned that they have library experience on their resume, which is why I don’t recommend online programs unless you are working in a library. You need experience. That’s what’ll get you hired.

      I would also add, that I have always told everyone who goes to library school the same thing and I think it is very true. You can chose what sort of librarian you want to be, or you can chose where you want to be geographically. You rarely get the luxury of choosing both.

  144. FemaleProgrammer*

    I’ve generally worked 40-45 hours per week. I find that if I go much over 43 or so hours, by Friday, I’m not really on my game mentally. How do other people cope with this?

    1. Emi.*

      I have a list (sometimes just in my head) of things I can do when I’m brain-fried: tidying my desk, online training, background reading, etc.

    2. winter*

      For me it makes a considerable difference if I take breaks during the day, especially mental breaks. But I’m also working below 40 hours a week because otherwise my energy is always fried.

    3. Kvothe*

      Take a long lunch on Friday with a friend or family member if possible. I always feel really refreshed mentally after a break like that in the middle of a day.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t worry about it, if my boss and others think I’m doing a good job. Which is why I’m here now!

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I have to be really good about scheduling flex time so I can catch up on everything! Today I am off as compensation for working about 50 hours this week and last week. I have gotten some chores done and there is still more to do, but I’ve carved out plenty of time to relax.

  145. Jana Appleseed*

    What’s the appropriate percentage raise to ask for when you move into management?

    In January, I was promoted from Teapot Painter to Red Teapot Quality Supervisor. When my title and raise were approved, it wasn’t intended to be a management position (the red teapot painters whose work I checked and I all reported to the Teapot Production Manager) but to put me on a path to management eventually. Upstream chaos meant the path was dramatically shortened, and day-to-day, I was de facto running the Red Teapot Team and occasionally the whole Teapot Team.

    Because this is far more responsibility than I was initially meant to take on, I was thinking anyway of asking for a raise at my next performance review, even though it seemed a bit soon. (My salary as a Quality Supervisor was equivalent to that of a Senior Teapot Painter, a promotion I would have received this year anyway.) Then I found out this week that I will be getting my own Teapot Team and a Teapot Production Manager title — because I was de facto doing the job anyway, my day to day won’t change, but the people who reported to the Teapot Production Manager through me will now just report to me.

    I was also told our raise budget is very small, but that I might be able to make a good case for myself because there is an exemption when job duties change.

    We’re a small company, and I believe I’m the first Teapot Painter to move into a management position. In my 4 years here, I’ve received raises of 6 to 8 percent every year for superior performance. I’ve been told my performance in the Teapot Quality Supervisor role has been my best yet. What’s an appropriate percentage to ask for for both stellar performance (albeit in a short time) and a responsibility increase?

  146. Callalily*

    Does anyone have recommendations for dealing with a boss that took my 2-weeks notice too personally? We’re a company of three (boss, senior coworker, me) and I’ve been here just under 2 years. I was offered an amazing opportunity with a competitor and I’d be a fool to turn it down.

    The first day he did not talk to me at all and wouldn’t even look at me.

    The second day he actually took his coat off outside the door so he wouldn’t have to stop by my desk to take if off before hanging it up; I think the only reason he made pleasantries with me was because I was really pushing it… but then he asked my coworker (RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME) if I’d had time to complete a certain task. She of course directed him to me and later gave him a tongue lashing for it in his office.

    Today (the third day) he came in and immediately started asking if I had signed my confidentiality agreement 6 months ago. My coworker assured him I had and he jumped all over her demanding to see it. Afterwards he went in her office saying “I need to talk about whats-her-name” and I overheard a long conversation where my coworker kept saying ‘these things happen’ and ‘you can’t blame her’.

    Just now I was working on a calculation that even he admitted that he might have to do because it was complex – I told him that I couldn’t finish and left it for him – he just loudly exclaimed to clients “I have to get back to work and do the work Callalily doesn’t want to do.” I was humiliated and speechless.

    My coworker told me not to take it personally, he’s done this to select exiting employees in the past for no apparent reason. She was even kind enough to approve vacation for my final 2 days (Monday-Tuesday) so we can have a clean break on the Friday.

    As much as I am trying to shake him off – it just feels so disrespectful and unprofessional. Any suggestions as to how to make next week as painless as possible?

    1. fposte*

      Avoidance and pity. Since I would assume he isn’t changeable. If you can pull it off when he says crap like that, you can go for a wise smile and a kindly “I’m leaving, and it’s really hard for him.”

    2. Nonster*

      Goodness, are you able to leave any earlier? If he’s mean and vindictive about you leaving then you don’t need to give the standard two weeks. Do you know if he gives good references or keeps up professional relationships with other people who have quit? This could also be a factor in whether you want to get the heck out of there now or finish up your last week.

      1. Callalily*

        I don’t think his reference would be that great… he is so wishy-washy in reviews that he’d probably contradict anything he had to say that was good or bad about me. He’ll simultaneously shit-talk and compliment past employees when he goes off on a tangent.

        As pleasing as it’d be to walk out the door, I feel compelled to stay next week for my coworker’s sake. I know she’ll give me an excellent reference and I’d hate to risk that by leaving her alone (we do everything) a week early.

        I just wish that he’d pull up his big boy pants and show some decency.

    4. It happens*

      So hard to deal with immaturity. Would it be totally out of the question to respectfully call him on his behaviors? “Hey, boss, I notice that you won’t look at me or address me directly; I am doing my best to complete the work I have this week, I would appereciate if we could all work respectfully until I leave.”
      Only one more week, you’ll make it.

      1. Callalily*

        I’d be fine calling out a normal person… but he unfortunately has some mental health/behavioural issues.

        I have personally witnessed him whisper screaming into the air (wide open scream but only breath), whining loudly, punching at the air, kicking his desk, and making very odd outbursts. These behaviour increase when he has a lot of work to do or a client makes a complaint; I don’t think he’d actually direct his anger towards me if I were to call him out, but it is an unsettling possibility.

        At the very least, calling him out will make him act more childish during my final week. I expect he’d refrain from talking or looking at me at all… I’m kind of resolved to keeping my head down, looking busy, and collecting my final paycheque.

        1. Anion*

          What if you go in a different direction?

          Next time he makes some comment, maybe smile wistfully and say with sincerity, “I’m really going to miss working with you, too, Bob, I’m so sad to be leaving you.”

          Like, act like you think he’s being childish because he’s sad, not because he’s a jerk. (Which is possible, honestly; I’m not at all excusing his ridiculous behavior, but it is possible he feels genuinely hurt and betrayed.)

          It might not work, of course, but maybe it’s worth a try? Maybe it will make him behave a little more pleasantly? You could even follow it up with something like, “Please let’s make my last memories here as happy as all the other ones have been. I’m so fond of you, and I’d hate to think I’ll be leaving you feeling so hurt.”

          Again…maybe worth a try? You shouldn’t have to coddle him, but if it will make your last days more pleasant…

  147. Pudgy Patty*

    Does anyone else feel a great ambivalence to the day-to-day decisions/questions in your job? By that I mean, do you not feel very invested/passionate/assured your viewpoint is right, and prefer to just let the group make a call and go on with your work? And does this matter?

    I’m not explaining this well, but throughout my career in marketing I feel like I just. don’t. care. It is such a subjective field, and yet most people I’ve worked with work themselves into such a frenzy about their opinions about (IMO) the most inconsequential, benign things. My feeling has always been, they can’t address the larger issues out of their control (soft sales, low lead volume, changing market conditions, crazy leadership), and so fight to the death over the color of business cards.

    My style of work is to just let the group or leader decide, and do the actual work that comes out of that decision. I rarely feel I have a stance; it is much more important to me that we have a consensus and I can do my work. All the discord and tension, and even healthy debate, stresses me out. But so many of my colleagues get PISSED if things don’t go their way. I just… don’t care. I see that this leads to soured relationships, and so I never have an opinion. If I’m asked, I just agree with the group or my boss.

    This is bad, right? And yet, I have always been praised for being collegial and easy to work with. Of course, because I’m not difficult. As I get older though, is this a sustainable way to work? Since I don’t aspire to leadership, can I work this way as a subject matter expert?

    This all ties to the fact that I’m just not an ambitious, career-driven person. My strong opinions are in the context of my life, not work. Work is just something I have to do to pay the bills. But I’m surrounded by all these people that CARE so damn much. I find it exhausting. If I didn’t have to work, I would not. And I think that’s why I’m so ambivalent. I just want to finish my day and leave. But I get stressed out that I’m the only one like this in the offices I’ve worked with. I feel like such a fraud because I have a strong resume and appear to be motivated and driven. But I’m not.

    Will this feeling ever go away, and if it doesn’t, is it okay?

    1. LAI*

      If I didn’t have to work, I wouldn’t either. But since I do have to work, I want to work doing something that I care about. I do feel that it makes it much easier to get through the day when I’m actually inspired and mentally engaged with what I’m working on. It’s not any less exhausting but I’m not sitting here watching the clock.

      As a separate issue, there’s a big difference between caring about your work and having such strong opinions that you’re hard to work with. You can have opinions and still respect others’ opinions too.

      1. Pudgy Patty*

        And I guess, that’s where I differ. I’m just not sure I care enough about anything for it to be my work. I certainly couldn’t get paid for it.

        1. fposte*

          I’m kind of like you in some ways; I’m a strong relativist, and I work with people who are generally pretty like-minded to me, so I’m not usually to disagree on something that hugely matters to me; I feel like arguing whether we use “teapots” or “teapottery” or “Camellianist ceramics” isn’t nearly as interesting as churning out the whatchamacallits. I think there are kinds of leadership I wouldn’t be suited for, but I’ve not found it to be a bar to all leadership.

          I don’t think I feel quite as odd-man-out as you do with it, but I also think that I’ve been fortunate that my other skills are generally appreciated. Can that work for you, at least internally? Can you reframe yourself as being implementation-focused rather than indifferent?

          1. Pudgy Patty*

            I think I do get satisfaction personally. But I have a huge case of Keeping up with the Jones’s, when it comes to work, so when I see everyone else so emotionally invested and upset things don’t go their way, I wonder why I’m wired so differently.

            If I could do data entry and work in spreadsheets all day, I’d be super happy. But I either can’t find those jobs, or they pay peanuts, so I do what I do because I get to do that work some of the time. I’ve somehow managed to get myself a title that has “Data” in it, so I hope when I move to a bigger market 5-10 years from now, I can change my field. I think marketers are generally a personality type that’s 180 from me, but I fell into this over a decade ago and see no easy way out. With huge life milestones ahead of me — marriage, kids, buying a house — I can’t afford a career change right now.

            I haven’t had a bad performance review yet, so I guess it’s working okay. I suppose I just need to focus on producing good work and not stress that it wasn’t something I necessarily championed and fought for.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I feel exactly like you. (I somehow wound up in marketing.)
      I also feel like my company can’t address (in any productive way) the issues you mentioned – lack of revenue, lack of new clients and vendors –
      So they come up with elaborate marketing/PR stunts (that I am pretty sure won’t make money) instead of trying to really listen to what the customer wants (why isn’t the product selling…because the Customer wants X but we keep insisting they really want Y)…
      Yeah, so I got the I.Don’t.Care either. I don’t think you are alone.

      1. Manders*

        Seconding this as another marketer. I think this is a big part of the reason why I was drawn to the niche I ended up in–it’s all about data and measurable results, so I can look at the numbers instead of relying on gut feelings and passion.

        Strangely, when I *do* care intensely about a personal project I’m trying to promote, I have a much harder time doing the actual work of marketing it. Taking things personally and getting upset when campaigns fail makes me a much more hesitant and lukewarm marketer.

        1. Pudgy Patty*

          Ha, I’m also in it for data, but not for results. My stomach turns at setting goals and comparing to them, actually. But the process of setting up reports and digging into what happened, as well as complex list building? That’s my absolutely jam. Yet no one else I’ve ever worked with in marketing has enjoyed that, so it always defaults to me. I just wish I could make that a career, but in a different industry and in a non-marketing function. Just not sure how. I might care about things a little more, though.

          1. Manders*

            Ohhh yeah, you described me perfectly. You’re totally right about the standard marketer personality, but I think there’s always going to be room for people who enjoy digging into data.

            Switching to a company in an industry that’s booming instead of one that’s steady and boring helped. I used to work for a company in a niche that just isn’t that exciting, so a lot of drama in the marketing department came from the boss’s gut feelings and sudden decisions to “shake things up.” Turns out that I actually really like growth hacking, not plugging away at promoting the same service 200 other functionally identical companies in the same city also provide.

          2. zora*

            Y’know this is interesting, bc i work in a mid-size PR firm right now, and there are totally a couple of data people like what you are describing and they are HIGHLY appreciated by the marketing/strategy/creative people. Because there is a point where they really need that kind of research and analysis, and then they take the results and do the big campaigns out of them.

            So, maybe you should look for a bigger marketing firm/agency when you are looking? Because it is definitely a smaller department, but it is highly regarded and needed in our agency.

            But also, I totally identify with what you are saying! I actually don’t LIKE making the big decisions bc it makes me anxious, but I love when someone else comes up with the big idea and I figure out the puzzle of how to make that happen. I call myself an implementor. I think my skills/desire are valuable, but currently I’m in a meh-paying admin position, so maybe they aren’t valuable to the people who run companies. I’m hoping I can turn this into a good job with a real pay and trajectory, but at this point I don’t know. But good luck to you!!

    3. JamieS*

      I think you’re conflating passion for your work/career and behavior that essentially amounts to pettiness so I’ll answer them separately. I’m very passionate and take great pride in my actual work product and try to play the long game in terms of my career progression. However I don’t give a rip about the color of a business card, what the standard email signature is set as, I don’t have time for petty office politics, I hate when people continually complain over things they don’t have control over, and I certainly don’t care about things like whether a co-worker greets me or their ‘tone’/attitude when interacting with me. I only care they provide the information and/or resources I need to do my job.

      I’m going off on a bit of a tangent so I’ll stop here but to summarize basically I care about the big picture and my actual work. I don’t care about petty things.

  148. Emi.*

    Welp, I just submitted my name for the Surge Capacity Force to assist with disaster relief for Harvey and Irma. I have no experience in disaster relief, but it seems they mostly want people to help survivors apply for whatever relief programs are available to them, and they can train you to do that. Fingers crossed!

      1. Emi.*

        Faster than an expedited standard form! More powerful than an electric stapler! Able to leap tall hierarchies in a single phone call!

        1. Snark*

          AAAAHAHA I dub thee Fillable PDF Woman.

          In all seriousness, that’s awesome, and it’s so good people are leaning in to help directly. Those regions are going to need a LOT of help. So will Puerto Rico.

          1. Anna Held*

            Will you be staying in a shelter? 1) shower shoes; 2) ear plugs; 3) flashlight; 4) headphones; 5) more ear plugs. It’s hard work, even if you’re just doing paperwork, but it’s worth it.

    2. Possible blogger seeking ideas*

      Awesome! As someone who had seven feet of water in my house for two weeks after Harvey, I appreciate the help!

  149. Kvothe*

    I’m going to be the only Civil P.Eng. in the office for most of next week (there’s usually seven including myself) for the first time since I got my P.Eng. and I know it’s going to be absolute madness. Any tips on how to triage and keep the office running? (most people will be contactable by me but I’ll be the one receiving all client requests and what not) I do have a seriously awesome admin assistant, three junior engineers and a few CAD people as backup

    1. katamia*

      Any chance you could forward the requests to the admin or someone else to organize by ugency, ease of task completion, or whatever would be most useful to you?

      1. Kvothe*

        Yeah I can definitely send off tasks and completely delegate in some circumstances, I’ll be the only one who can really make the call on priority though

        1. JaneB*

          As a legendarily good arcanist, you shouldn’t have much trouble… just don’t try to be too clever… :-p

  150. Nonster*

    Recently I found out that one of my colleagues (Dan) was going to be working on a project that I’d really wanted to be involved in. I reached out to the person in charge of the project (Ann) to ask about it – basically, Ann had forgotten that this was something I was really interested in, and was not aware of the fact that I had training that was specifically relevant to the work. In fact, my training in that area is much more advanced than Dan’s. After explaining how I felt to Ann (not mentioning the skills difference between me and Dan since I felt that would come across as vindictive), she said of course I could be involved. I was happy, and figured both Dan and I would get to do it. Cut to a few weeks later at a staff meeting, Ann announced only my name when talking about who would be taking on this new work. Essentially, my speaking up got Dan bumped off the project. This was not my intention at all. Other colleagues have mentioned that Dan is disappointed because he thought he would get to do it and was so excited about it. I feel horribly guilty, and am now worried that this will damage my working relationship with Dan – I don’t know what he thinks towards me right now. Should I talk to him? Talk to Ann? Just keep my head down and be glad that I am being given this opportunity, and recognized for my hard work and skills?

    1. fposte*

      I would talk to Ann. “Hey, I didn’t mean to bump anybody off the project–I was just hoping I could join the existing team, and I feel like this was really hard on Dan; can we loop him back in to the project?”

      1. Nonster*

        I might do that. It’s just that I know Ann had to go to a lot of trouble to get me on the project (with scheduling our other work). And from the perspective of the higher ups I think it makes more sense to have Dan still doing our day-to-day work, and now I’m aware that we do not have enough staff to have both of us doing the project. I guess I just think it was handled badly. Then again, I don’t know the whole story of how Dan was told the news (if he was told anything or just found out at the meeting).

  152. Floundering Mander*

    What’s the best way to follow up with a potential freelance client?

    I’ve been doing casual copy editing, mostly for friends and acquaintances, for years now. Although I’m not professionally qualified I have a knack for it, so I set myself up as a proper business a few years ago so that I didn’t get in trouble over taxes. But I haven’t made much effort to expand or advertise my services.

    Back in April I met the editor of a company that publishes relatively low-quality monographs in my field (things like PhD/MA theses, authors from countries with fewer academic publishing options, and community project reports — nothing untoward, just not necessarily polished) and she asked if I’d be interested in doing copy editing and perhaps reviews for them. I emailed her the week after the conference and didn’t get a response. Now that it’s back to school season I was thinking that it wouldn’t hurt to try again. How should I approach it? Should I send in my CV as well?

  153. A.N.O.N.*

    Hey, HR folks.

    Thoughts on getting an MBA?

    I’m fairly new in my HR career (but have progressed quickly), and am currently at a University where I have tuition benefits. I’m thinking of taking advantage of it by doing the part-time MBA program, but I’m still on the fence on whether it’s worthwhile time-wise. I certainly don’t think it’s necessary, but I imagine it’d be helpful if aspiring to be a CHRO or something to that effect? Maybe?

    1. A.N.O.N.*

      Not sure what a master’s in human resources would accomplish, but I guess that’s also an option. (FWIW, this is more about utilizing a job perk since it’s available and could be helpful in the future; I’m less interested in something like SHRM certification.)

    2. H.C.*

      I’m of the “can’t hurt, might help” mindset, if full time work & part time school (and probably considerably less time for anything else) is a load you can juggle for the program’s duration.

      On a related note, I’m thinking about applying to Smartly’s free MBA program.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        Juggling the workload (and the loss of free time) is exactly why I’m hesitating.

        If I knew that it would be worthwhile for my long-term career goals, I’d be much more eager to get on board. But as of now, I don’t know how necessary an MBA is for HR. Would it really open a whole lot more doors down the road, or is it more of a “cool to have, ok to not” sort of situation?

      2. Samata*

        Same with me; if the tuition benefit means free or significant discount and ANON can swing it I say go for it. Why not? I did it when I worked in higher ed and while it didn’t help me then, it helps me 15 years later now that I have experience. I think the MBA itself doesn’t help but the fact that I went through a program while working…drive and all that. Plus it taught me a lot about teamwork, helped me improve my writing and time management due to working FT. Those were all bonuses. Well, that and no student loans.

    3. periwinkle*

      If you aspire to be a strategic HR person rather than a tactical one, the MBA may help a lot. Leadership takes you seriously when you can translate HR-speak into Finance-speak and link HR initiatives to business financial goals.

  154. Fake old Converse shoes*

    One a half a month later there’s not replace for my former coworker. Maybe the pay it’s too low to tempt the kind of person they want, or candidates realize the project is a can of worms. So, whenever it catches fire I’m afraid I’ll be on my own.

  155. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    I have been invited to interview for a job in Chicago that I’ve posted about on here previously! I’m so excited! I’m so scared! Just needed an anonymous place to squee. If anyone reads this and can spare a few positive vibes, they would be much appreciated.

  156. AnonAnalyst*

    Yikes, 800+ comments – I hope I’m not too late to get someone to see this!

    I interviewed with a company last month, and after talking to everyone on the team, I was really interested in working there. It seemed like personality-wise we would work well together and the work seemed interesting. A few weeks later, I received an email saying they were going in a different direction. I was bummed, but not totally shocked; although I felt like I could add value to the team, I got the sense that there might be concerns that I was over-qualified for some of the work they needed to have done.

    A few days after receiving the rejection, I received an offer for a 12-month contract position with another company. I accepted it and have been in that job for a few weeks. But Company 1 has now reached out to me again and asked if I’m interested in reopening the discussion.

    I would normally give Company 1 a “thanks but no thanks” since I’m working at Company 2 now, but the maximum length of my job at Company 2 is 12 months, at which point I’ll have to find something else. Company 1 is looking for a regular full time employee. (I should also add that i just moved to a new state after leaving my old job, so I’ve gone through enough change recently that the permanent position looks especially attractive.) Given that Company 1 is a fairly small organization with a long-tenured team, it’s not a given that the opportunity with Company 1 will be available once the contract is up.

    Advice? I feel like quitting this contract job ~1 month in is awful, but I also feel like I have to look out for my own interests as well. Any way I can do it gracefully?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I am sure others will have more experience than I (!) but if you are willing to “burn the bridge” at the company where you are at for one month…

      And you sound really interested in Company 1, I would at least talk to them? There’s no guarantee that they are going to offer you a job – and a long-term job in a new place sounds better than a 1 year contract job (unless you can think of others pros for Company 2 – i.e. likelihood of renewed contract, more flexibility, chance to do different short-term contracts jobs, other things I have not thought of)….

    2. Naruto*

      You can’t do it gracefully. You should check into your contract and see if you can do it at all, or if there are any conditions attached, since you entered a 12-month contract of some sort. But no, you will napalm that bridge.

      Do it if it’s right for you, but understand that this may tarnish your reputation and there’s almost certainly no way to do it without pissing them off.

      1. Naruto*

        Well, if you get the other job and take it, when you leave you can apologize and make clear that you understand how much this sucks. That will help make this exit about as graceful as possible. But I’d still be surprised if it’s good.

    3. H.C.*

      I agree with Sophie – you can talk to Company 1 now and see where it leads; the offer, let alone actual start date, might not be for another couple of weeks or even months – esp. if negotiation is involved.

    4. AnonAnalyst*

      Thanks all, I appreciate the responses! Maybe I’ll just stay where I am and turn down the request. I don’t want to be tempted since I’m not exactly loving the way my job with Company 2 is turning out.

    5. Samata*

      I am thinking along the lines of other replies, you may burn the bridge, but I think you need to talk to Company 1.

      Does your 12-month contract include heath insurance, PTO, 401K match and other benefits? Is this a case where they renew this particular contract year over year or is it for sure a 12-month gig?

      You have the potential to tarnish your reputation, but you also have a lot of other considerations to make and I think it could be worth exploring. Are Company 1 and Company 2 in the same industry? I know no one has a crystal ball but is Company 1 somewhere you see as a long-term solution? Is it the same position and what made them change their mind?

      Just all the questions I’d ask them before giving them a “thanks but not thanks” and then see where it goes from there.

      I’ve only had a contract job once, and at the end of my 3rd year I was going to go to full-time even though I loved the work I was doing. Me saying I needed the stability and benefits was enough for them to offer me FT. Don’t get me started on that but anywho….I say at least talk to them.

      1. Anna Held*

        Companies increasingly are showing less loyalty to their employees. You have to take care of yourself. Yes, check the contract, and know that your rep may take a hit (only you can figure out how great a hit, and whether you can withstand it), but this is a full time job! That’s pretty understandable. I say talk to Company 1.

    6. Floundering Mander*

      I can’t see what it would hurt to talk to Company 1 and explain that you just took this other job but it’s for a fixed-term contract so you expect to be available at the end of it. Depending on how long the hiring process takes you could maybe negotiate something like staying at your current place for a few months, so you aren’t completely burning a bridge.

      I’ve known contracts to go either way. Sometimes they get extended when you didn’t expect them to, sometimes they are even cut off early.

  157. Jade*

    How far back into your employment history should you go on job applications? I figure with resumes you only put down whatever’s relevant, like the past 10 years or so, but what about actual job application forms? Some of them specify a time range, like 5 or 10 years, and some don’t. If it doesn’t specify, what’s a safe bet? I don’t want to spend 30min every application typing out details for every irrelevant job I’ve had since college.

    1. katamia*

      3 jobs or whatever’s relevant, but my job history is super weird because it’s all part-time jobs (some of which overlap) and freelance (which overlaps as well). My one and only full-time job was…holy crap, 10 years ago.

      1. Jade*

        Yeah I have a similar problem with a few part time and seasonal jobs overlapping my regular jobs, which makes it take forever to fill out an application.

      2. nep*

        Same — these forms are an absolute nightmare for me because of short-term contracts with various institutions.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      My resume goes back ten years. On job apps, I usually fill out everything that’s on my resume but no further back, unless it only wants three. One app only let me enter my last job, but I had uploaded my resume, so they have everything.

    3. Floundering Mander*

      I’ve done this various ways depending on the job I’m applying for. For instance, earlier this week I applied for a temp job that wanted customer service experience in addition to two other things that I have. I’m not sure how successful this approach will be, but for two years after I finished college I was a customer service rep for a big insurance company. After that I went to graduate school and my jobs for the last 17 years have been in archaeology except for a few short term temp jobs here and there. So that experience is ancient but directly relevant, and I organized my CV into sections by broad skills (i.e. Customer Service, Archaeology, Museums). We’ll see how effective it is.

      Normally I’d only put 10 years, 15 max, and leave out the really short jobs. Nobody really cares that I spent a week as a receptionist in a school, unless I’m trying to emphasize that yes, I can talk to visitors and give them the right kind of pass without much training.

  158. No Solomon Solution*

    My boss has reached out to me regarding an unannounced change coming to work. They have a clear preference for what the change would be but want to make sure they’re not making an emotional decision about it. Their preference is opposite to their boss’ but in line with corporate’s. Whichever way we go it’s going to impact profitability and customers.

    Main issues for me: there’s a very short timeframe to make the decision. I have to write summaries on the different options (preferably supporting my boss’ position), I don’t know what option is best for the company. Boss and boss’ boss both agree that I’ll provide continuity regardless of which way they go (I have the most knowledge about the affected area). My responsibility and workload will probably increase significantly at a time when I can’t even work a full week due to health issue (which is also affecting my mental abilities).

    I wish there was a clear cut solution

  159. AudreyParker*

    Anyone have recent experience working through temp agencies beyond entry level work? My job search is dragging, which is partly my own fault as I am having a hard time matching my disparate experience up with any existing job posts and am not exactly pumped with confidence that I can successfully apply for positions that involve multiple tasks or software programs that I haven’t specifically done/used before. Early in my career, I was able to bypass the self-sabotage by just going through temp agencies and landing temp-to-perm gigs. However, this was 15+ years ago. Both the employment landscape and my skill set (and compensation expectations) are totally different now. I don’t know if I can handle working as a receptionist for $12 an hour in a major city.

    I don’t know anyone else personally who has done any temping, so curious whether anyone here has done this outside the “just out of college” timeframe…

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’ve worked with temp agencies while looking for work. There were a few times I was able to get more advanced work, but most often you just sort of have to take what you can get. Most of them were pretty good about providing some training with their specialized software. Additionally, most of the actual employers were pretty chill about me leaving for an interview. (I was only paid for the time I worked there, so they weren’t paying for it when I was gone.) Some aren’t and you have to deal with it as best you can.

      As I’ve said previously, I’ve never really had any luck with any temp job going temp-to-perm. None of the employers who hired me for a temp position through temp agencies wanted to pay the “finder’s fee” to the temp agency. However, I was contacted by a company where I had worked as a temp six months after I worked there. Six months was the duration of time after which, if they hired me, they wouldn’t have to pay the finder’s fee. By that time I’d found a good full-time job so I turned them down.

    2. Anion*

      My husband just went through a recruitment agency and landed a temp-to-perm job at (just) above entry level–but with a decent hourly wage ($20). They started indicating they wanted him permanently a week in and gave him a promotion last week (after six weeks on the job).

      My husband has over twenty years of management experience but just wasn’t having luck with sending in resumes in this area. This got his foot in the door, and it was clear at the interview they were impressed with his qualifications and were interested in moving him up quickly (assuming he did well at the work, which he did. They had a lot of positions to fill, ultimately, and we suspect that after this promotion, which is a managerial-type position, they might move him up even further.

      So IMO it’s definitely worth looking into agencies. There absolutely are companies that look to agencies to fill higher position or that want to hire from within so look to agencies to bring them good candidates they can move up later. I hope that helps, and wish you the very best of luck!

  160. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    A former coworker applied for an opening at my current job. I love former coworker’s personality, but can’t vouch for their work b/c they were on a separate project unrelated to mine. Anybody with similar tales? How’d it turn out?

  161. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

    I think I need a little encouragement.

    I moved from the East Coast back to the West Coast a couple months ago for a dance position – I’m a dance teacher (who’s always had a day job) and this position is the best I’ve ever had, no regrets taking it. Over the last 5 years, I’ve learned that I do best when my day job is not too challenging for me, and I can leave it at work. So, I’ve been looking for an admin or data entry (not receptionist – due to health problems I can’t sit at a desk all day) position, and no luck. My dance classes are going great, which is awesome, it’s just frustrating that I have over 4 years of related experience and have gotten 1 interview so far.

    A problem is that my work history is very job-hoppy (I’ve moved a lot), and I’m definitely looking for a position where I can stay for a long while, so I’m being a bit choosy about positions that I’ve applied for. I’m also signed up with a reputable temp agency, and have had 1 gig so far, so fingers crossed that another/more will come.

    1. KR*

      Can you do positions that require desk time with a standing desk? I’m also thinking of the book keeper at the grocery store I worked at. She didn’t have a chair – she had a counter that she stood at to work. She sat in the cash office and didn’t interact with the public too much, her schedule was fairly fixed, and she was paid well.

      1. KR*

        Well I guess sat at her desk isn’t the way to say it. She stood all shift in a closed office doing higher level work, ocassionally having to walk to other parts of the store.

      2. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

        Yes, that’s the kind of position I’m looking for. Most places don’t allow receptionists to have a standing desk because it looks “unprofessional”

    2. CAA*

      Does your cover letter say something like “after several short term positions due to family relocations, I am now settled in this area and am looking for a position where I can stay for several years.” If not, maybe try adding something like that. If I see a job hopper’s resume, then it does help if they at least mention that they don’t want to continue on like that.

  162. Meeeeeeeee*

    Question about a tricky workplace situation. My manager’s wife works in the same function as me (as well as a number of other people). To avoid issues, the company has her report up to somebody else, but that person isn’t very involved in our day to day work. Now my manager is including her on projects that don’t require her (leading to a ‘too many cooks in the kitchen’ issue). I often disagree with her approach to projects, which probably causes me to be more annoyed about her being involved. Other colleagues have also already complained about the same thing. Any suggestions for how to deal with this?

  163. A Non of All Trades*

    I’ve been reading the archives in my (barely existent) downtime and I’m wondering, how do you figure out what you’re worth when there’s no easy parallel to your job? My official title and job description doesn’t scratch the surface of what I actually do, but because I accomplish a lot of things for a lot of departments, there’s no easy counterpart I’ve been able to find.

    Eventually I think I’m going to have to bring this up and argue for a bump in all areas, but it’s not as simple as saying “most teapot designers in this area with my level of experience make X”, I’m not aware of anyone who does quite what I do…

  164. Wendy City*

    Long time reader, first-time commenter!

    I’ve been at my current job a little over 7 months. Although I was never especially passionate about the job (I took it because I was looking to make a cross-country move), it paid well enough and there were enough positives that I was expecting to be able to make it work. It’s clear after seven months that I’ve got no long-term interest in staying at the company, and the work itself is tedious and boring for me. The only plus side is I genuinely respect and adore my supervisor.

    My question is, will a stay of less than a year look weird or raise red flags? This is my second job out of college, and I was at my first job for three and a half years. If I have to tough it out another year or two to make it work, then I’ll find a way, but it’s to the point where I’m wistfully browsing LinkedIn job postings.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I think you are fine to start job-searching as long as the job you secure next will be a place you stay for a few years. Everyone gets a freebie short-term job that doesn’t work out! And seven months certainly looks better than, say, three.

      I would recommend staying in your current job until you get another lined up.

    2. KR*

      It might take longer to get a job than you think. I would try to tough it out until you hit the year mark, and then start your job search.

    3. miyeritari*

      I think you could have a nice slow, thorough job search if you start now. You’re probably not going to get your next job tomorrow.

      I wouldn’t leave unless you have your new job lined up, though.

  165. Lemon Zinger*

    After my dreadful coworker moved to a different department, we posted her job and left it open for two weeks, per usual. We didn’t get very much interest in the position (which is unusual– when we were hiring dreadful coworker, there were over 40 applicants). The applicants who made it to the phone interview were largely unqualified and, based on their resumes, job-hoppers. We didn’t really like any of them. My boss is going to see if we can close the position without hiring and re-post it, but she’ll have to be detailed about why none of the candidates are qualified. If she can’t provide enough information, we have to invite three candidates to interview in person, at which point… we may not like any of them, and we’ll have to close without hiring and re-post.

    It’s all very bureaucratic because we work at a public university. Frankly I think we are doing fine with the other position empty. I am working a LOT but it’s worth it because I do love the job and go wherever I’m needed.

  166. VioletOrchid*

    Does anyone have advice for job hunting while dealing with anxiety and being unemployed for over 6 months? I’ve been unemployed for 9 and my previous 3 jobs were contracts so I feel awful right now. I feel like I’m in between being overqualified or under qualified, but more of the former, as of late. I’m tired of having to volunteer to get anywhere because at this point (especially since covering my bus fare for volunteering adds up), I’m beyond broke that my credit card is my lifeline right now and paid for 3 medications I really need (I don’t have insurance for prescriptions). I applied for unemployment insurance and was denied but currently waiting for the results of my appeal. I’m just so tired of applying and getting nowhere that I honestly feel like quitting because it looks like there’s no way out for me and I can’t keep applying for contract jobs that are 2 hrs (one way) via public transit and pay minimum wage. I did that for my last two jobs and it basically resulted in my current poor health standing. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to approach this situation?

    1. Anna Held*

      Not really, though I went through something similar (without the mental health issues — but a long stretch of unemployment makes everyone depressed). A few thoughts: can you temp, work online, or tutor, or babysit, or work retail right near your home? Something to pay a few bills and get you out in the world. Caveat: a bad retail or restaurant job can add stress and make it harder to job search.

      Also, talk to people you trust, or at least can help you. People need to know you’re running out of steam and may need real help. Whether it’s a family member who can take you in, or a counselor or doctor, or a friend to vent to, or an acquaintance who can look over your application materials because she’s great at that, now is not the time to cling to your pride. Now is the time to call in every favor you can think of and then some. You’ll remember how crappy this feels and do the same for someone else some day.

      Finally, find out about social services in your area. It takes time to get in the system. They’re there for people in exactly your situation — no false pride about not really needing the food pantry, or rental assistance, or whatever else. Winter is coming; is there a service to help with heating bills? Get started now & take all help available.

      In terms of a job search — honestly, I think it’s as much luck as skill. This site will help you a lot, but I never got a read on why some of my applications would get an interview and some wouldn’t. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you, you just haven’t hit the sweet spot. Good luck!

      1. VioletOrchid*

        I live at home and my mom is helping me out here and there so I’m not too worried about my living isutiation although there are some bad days. I’m getting counselling right now so that’s covered too.

        I worked in retail previously and it was so bad I had panic attacks on the sales floor so I’d rather not go through that again with another minimum wage retail jobs. :/ It just takes too much of a toll on my body. I’ve also networked with family/friends/events and still nothing along with revamping my cover letter and resume. I did manage to get two interviews recently and nothing else. That’s why I’m so frustrated… I’m doing everything I’m “supposed” to do but it’s not working out and I’m at the end of my rope. :/ Thanks for the insight though.

        1. Anna Held*

          Hugs and love. I know that frustrated feeling well. Like I said, it was as much luck as anything I think that I got a job — I have skills, but was changing fields, and just didn’t “fit” any one position. They really want you to have done the exact job, or to know someone! I guess just slog it out, and be really kind to your mom. Maybe start applying in a different area if you’re willing to move?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m not American and don’t know if this is actually useable or helpful but the Psych Central website has a discount card for meds that may be worth looking into.

      1. VioletOrchid*

        I’m Canadian and even though our doctor’s visit are covered, prescriptions are not. And I’ve aged out of the bracket that gets free prescriptions so I basically have to hope I have no more medical emergencies that need them until I find work. :/

  167. elena*

    My self-organization system isn’t cutting it, and I need some tools to help schedule my time better. I like writing my to-do list down in a notebook, but maybe having something more visual (but still physical! no apps!) would help. Does anyone have recommendations for neat office supply/productivity products? Kind of like the Container Store for storage, but for work stuff? Thanks!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Would post its or dry erase pens on a whiteboard work for you?

      I like to write things on coloured sticky notes personally.

  168. Me--Blargh!*

    Congratulations to everyone who got an offer this week and *hugs* to everyone who is still looking or having work woes.

    Nothing to update. There wasn’t even anything worth applying to this week. I’ve been working on that little ebook and trying to ignore Jerkbrain. I’ve only got three stories I didn’t already publish on my blog, and Amazon takes too big a cut for such a short thing. Bummer. Maybe it was a dumb idea. Shorts aren’t really my form anyway (though someone did just leave a favorable comment on one of my blog stories, yay).

    St. Louis has been struck off my list because I don’t want to pay taxes that support that awful, awful police department. My escape fund is now so low there is no point in applying to jobs in CA anymore. I wouldn’t be able to move that far. :\ Welcome to the land of Permanently Screwed.

    1. Manders*

      Ugh, that’s frustrating. I’m sorry the job search has been so hard.

      I think it’s ok to self-publish stories in an anthology you’re selling that you’ve previously put up for free on your blog. Amazon doesn’t care about things like rights of first publication in the same way that a traditional publisher would, so long as you’re not selling the exact same product on Amazon that you’re giving away for free somewhere else. I’ve bought a whole lot of books that started their lives as free online stories.

      1. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

        Yup, one of my fave authors on Reddit nosleep did that – they published an anthology on Amazon with 3 new stories (the rest had been previously posted on Reddit nosleep)

      2. Me--Blargh!*

        Hmm, well I could do that, I suppose, and pull them off my blog. Then I could say here are some that were previously published at *Blog* along with three new / unpublished ones. That would make the book longer and I could charge more than a buck.

        1. Anion*

          I’ve published a couple of collections of previously-published work. They all sold quite well. It’s worth doing, IMO.

  169. The Rat-Catcher*

    Today I did a horrible passive-aggressive email thing.
    I’m an admin assistant so you know the miscommunications are always our fault…I emailed some information to two people who needed it three days ago. No response. When one of my coworkers followed up today, the response was “We have received no information other than *other email two weeks ago*.”
    So I forwarded the original message again with “please see below.”
    #sorrynotsorry

      1. Effie, moving forward without self judgement*

        I think you were fine. I’ve done that before. In Outlook I drag the original email over as an attachment.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Honestly, I’m ok with that, but I am also blunt and wouldn’t read it as passive aggressive. It’s a subtle way of telling me I failed in email management, and I need to do better.

      but yeah, a lot of people wouldn’t like it. Maybe they should do better at email management?

    4. Someone else*

      I don’t find this passive-aggressive. It’s efficient. You could’ve softened it a bit with a “I sent you the email below on DATE”. Let me know if you have additional questions.” and it’d be slightly less harsh than just the “see below”, but if it’s sent it’s sent and no need to pretend otherwise. But I may be biased because it really pisses me off when I reply really quickly to people and then a few days later they get all huffy and “hello? any response?” so pointing out they had one, to me, is generally fine.

  170. Pathfinder Ryder*

    How does one explain in interviews that you’re looking for a less stressful job? Not the lower level and lower responsibilities kind of less stressful as someone’s written to Alison about before, but the “please get me off of a hospital ward where there’s death and grief and patients’ abusive partners threatening violence against staff” kind. Should one mention it in interviews? I’m admin, not clinical.

    1. Anna Held*

      Not in your field, but that certainly sounds reasonable to me! I think anyone would understand why you’d want a change.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      You could talk about wanting a better work/life balance. Or if you’re wanting to transition to a notably different type of employer, it’s fine to say that working in a hospital was too stressful. It doesn’t make you look bad or fussy or negative to state that you want to bring your skill set to a business with a positive vibe.

  171. Traveller*

    E-mail etiquette:

    A manager sent a request to a colleague of mine and me putting another manager involved in this matter in cc. The email was formulated “could one of you do this and that”.

    The request was clearly related to what I’m doing, my colleague doesn’t have much to do with that. Also, in my reply I needed to include some somewhat critical comments directed towards another colleague.

    That’s why I replied only to the two managers, leaving out the colleague who previously was in cc. I didn’t think I should send my reply also to the colleague as it related to a conflictive situation she had nothing to do with.

    The manager replied putting the colleague back into cc.

    Was I out of touch deleting her address in my reply?

    1. Dotty*

      Possibly. It doesn’t sound like a big deal but at the same time, it’s worth noting that there would’ve been a reason the manager cc’d in your colleague in the first place – if this was the first email in the chain, I’d see that you should simply hit “reply all”. It may have been that for any subsequent emails, it would become clear that that person didn’t need to be included but generally, I’d assume that the person emailing the request (whether a manager or coworker) has a reason – that may not always be clear – for including a certain group of people so I wouldn’t second guess that by taking people out of the loop.

      1. Traveller*

        The reason why he cced my colleague is probably that he doesn’t know how we divide roles in the team. It was something that only had to do with me.

        And I wouldn’t feel ok criticising a colleague in front of another colleague (my peer).

        It’s different with the managers – they knew about this problem from me before.

  172. many bells down*

    I met the museum’s new Education Director last week, and apparently I made a good impression. I’m only a volunteer right now, but I’d really love an actual job in museum education (my only museum experience is the volunteer work, but I do have a solid background in education). Is it too soon or too presumptuous to try and add him on Linkedin? The only other museum staff I have on there are the two volunteer coordinators.

    1. miyeritari*

      I think you should add him. Adding someone on linkedin isn’t demanding a job or something like that.

    2. AudreyParker*

      It seems totally reasonable to reach out on LinkedIn, with the caveat to make sure to personalize the invitation – you may already be in the habit of doing this, but the number of random invitations to connect that I receive with zero context makes me feel compelled to mention this frequently ;)

  173. miyeritari*

    What’s the best time to email a new (superior to you) networking connection? The morning after the networking event? The following week? Immediately? I’m overthinking this.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Personally I’ve found people seem to wait 2-3 days. Enough not to look over eager but not so long they forget you.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      I’ve had a lot of success with emailing them right away. That night or the following morning. I think it comes across as organized and motivated.

  174. WriterLady*

    So I’m trying to stash $$ for a non-work related venture, and found out over the last week that current boss isn’t paying me correctly – about a $10 difference per hour. I’m a bit miffed about it, really, because that extra money would be great.

    Anyway, seeing as that’s not working, I’d love to hear from freelance folk out there. How did you start out with getting clients etc? And what were/are the best tools you’ve found in completing work?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I used to be a freelance journalist and I found other freelancers were an incredible source of work – some people think they’re just competitors and miss that they’re also colleagues who might be able to pass on opportunities. It’s worth networking with others in your field.

  175. LSquared*

    I’m in a female-dominated allied health profession in the US (think nurse practitioner or social worker, but not) where our standard work attire is business casual. I typically wear dress pants, a nice shirt, and a cardigan to work. Or dress and cardigan (lots of cardigans).

    I’m going to an international conference in the UK for my profession that will be mostly people from the UK, US, Australia, and a few other countries in Europe. Do you think I need to step-up the formality of my work wardrobe during this conference? I’m not sure what is customary in other countries in terms of “business” casual attire and I don’t want to be under- or over-dressed.

    2. Overeducated*

      I’m not in health but have a similar work wardrobe. For a conference I would go a step up from pants and cardigan (e.g. pants and jacket) or wear a dress on the more conservative side with a cardigan.

      The general women’s conference uniform for the biggest meeting in my field is black on top, black on bottom, and scarf or large “ethnic” jewelry…I don’t like to wear that much black myself, but it’s so common people joke about it and introduce themselves to strangers in airports traveling to the same meeting. So you could check with someone in your field to find out if there is anything like that!

  176. zora*

    I know it’s late to comment down here, but I. CAN. NOT. with the office neighbors playing BASKETBALL off of our shared wall right now!!!!!!!! One of those little mini basketballs and hoops, but still the THUMP noises off the glass wall are slowly driving me insane…

    I had a very long week, had nightmares all night, and had to be up super early for a medical test before coming to work this morning and I think I might either scream or just snap and strangle them all.

    Thank you for letting me vent. <3

    1. nep*

      WTF?! How awful.
      Hope you’ll be able to get home and get some rest.
      (Seriously, who does that when there is a shared wall?)

      1. zora*

        Thanks for the sympathy!! They are total bro types, and so inconsiderate and annoying.

        I know I need to use my words, but today I was so tired I couldn’t actually formulate a sentence. I’ll find a moment next week when I’m not so frustrated to ask them to not. do. that. [[eyeroll]]

  177. Harry Q. Bovik*

    I am an engineer currently working in the QA department of a large and popular tech company. Our HR team was recently bragging about a new and improved internal transfer process because “We want people to be happy here, if you’re bored with your current job you can transfer.” I want to move from doing QA to developing software on the team I currently do QA for. There is an open position on the team, the engineers all say they’d love to work with me, and think I could do the job well. I got approval from my current manager, but when I tried to talk to the manager of the team I want to move to, he was evasive, mentioned the “good work I’m doing in my current position”, told me that the job I want isn’t actually all that exciting, and then told me that he had an external candidate in mind that he thought would work really well with the team. This feels unfair to me, he might think this other person would be a good fit, but his employees have already been working with me for a year and a half. What do I do here? I like the people I work with, generally like the company culture, but I really want to move from QA to development and think I deserve the opportunity.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Is it possible he wasn’t thrilled that you’d talked to everyone but him – might he have felt like he was the last to know and like he was being strong-armed into it? I obviously don’t know how your new process works, but it sounds like he might have needed to be consulted a bit earlier?

      1. Emotionally Neutral*

        It sounds to me like Harry’s coworkers told him about the position and then he talked to his manager before the coworkers’ manager, which would be the appropriate order. IMO, it would have been inappropriate to keep his own manager out of the loop and tell the coworkers’ manager first.

      2. Harry Q. Bovik*

        It was more a matter that I mentioned in conversation with some members of this team that I was bored with much of the work I had been tasked with in my current position and they suggested “hey, we could really use someone with your skills on our team, you should talk to our manager about a transfer.”

  178. MsChanandlerBong*

    I think my husband’s employer may have shot themselves in the foot today. One of his coworkers causes a lot of drama, complains about everything, has a history of no-shows, calls in so often that he has a negative PTO balance, etc. They went ahead and terminated him today, but I am wondering if they’re going to have a problem because of how it happened. The coworker is Jewish and was upset that he did not have the day off for Rosh Hashanah. I don’t think it looks great to allow someone to remain employed after multiple no-shows and then fire him when he is upset that he didn’t get the day off to participate in a religious activity.

  179. Master Bean Counter*

    So I just spent two hour fighting a new reporting software that is less efficient than the old one to get a report only to realize that my session of the software is pointed to the wrong database.
    Margarita time y’all!

  180. nep*

    Received another email ‘no’ today.
    Straightforward, not over the top — which I appreciate.
    HR / Hiring Managers: Don’t be condescending or syrupy or flowery in rejection emails. Concise and respectful does it.

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      I think Indeed gives employers the option of sending out their form rejection email; I’ve gotten the exact same one from a few different businesses. It’s very kindly phrased and I appreciated getting a response.

  181. GoldenMaple*

    I’ve been waiting all week for the open thread because I witnessed the craziest thing the other day: a new hire took a phone interview for another job while sitting in our employee break room. It wasn’t like they had the room to themselves, since there were 6 other people eating lunch at the time, including a person from HR. They even told the interviewer that “I currently work for Chocolate Teapots, but I’d like to get a better job than this.” But the best part was after the interview was over, when New Hire turned to another employee and said, “Yeah, I don’t think I’m getting that job. I didn’t meet their qualifications.”

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Of please tell me next week that this employee’s manager decided he wasn’t a good fit and let him go.

      1. GoldenMaple*

        Someone in New Hire’s department mentioned to me that there were already some issues with attendance and New Hire randomly disappearing for 30 minutes at a time. I’m guessing there were more phone interviews involved.

    2. nep*

      How do people live like this? Who could think there’s anything remotely OK about this? Or they simply don’t care. Wow.

    4. Overeducated*

      I have a coworker who is interviewing for another job and not at ALL quiet about it. He asked me to give feedback on his writing sample during work, has teleworked twice for interviews, talks openly about how much he wants the new job, and said “Boss said it sounds like a better fit for my interests.” He is in no danger of being fired because he’s on a necessary project and we’re under severe hiring restrictions, but it’s weird.

      I, on the other hand, actually do have less than a year on my contract, and have a lot of issues with my job, but I’m not advertising it! Bizarre.

  182. Anxious Anon*

    Just started a new job, just a part-time seasonal retail thing, but I’m having some serious anxiety about it. I have done jobs like this before, but I have had near panic attacks thinking about it. I need money now so I can’t just quit. Does anyone have any tips on how to try and stay calm? My usual coping methods just don’t seem to cut it right now.

    1. nep*

      Can you be specific about what it is about this job that triggers attacks for you?
      Is this an issue you’ve had for a while / in other jobs?

    2. Anono-me*

      Are you able to see a professional about the anxiety?

      If you do identify a specific situation that concerns you and is triggering the anxiety, you might want to ask a more experienced coworker how they handle similar situations.

      Could you transfer to stocking or look for a different seasonal job, say shipping or house cleaning (or just carpets)?
      This sounds like a short enough period of time that the sales job could be left off your resume.

      While is is of course important for you that you address your anxiety issues, it is probably not helpful to subject yourself to exacerbating conditions unnecessarily until you are able to address the anxiety issues. (Kind of like someone with a broken leg should probably not run until a cast is put on.)

      Wishing you all the best.

  183. NaoNao*

    Okay, after three weeks of progressive “Will I get to the next level of interview?”, I am now being flown into L.A. for the final round next week. Very excited.
    However…a couple little things have left a sour taste in my mouth.
    The company requires a practicum, an official HR-ready application (through an ATS) and an executive summary for the on-site interview. Okay, no problems.
    I’ve completed the practicum, no issues there.
    I opened the executive summary, and the first section is “academic achievements”. The directions say to list each degree you have…and *the GPA for that degree*. Y’all…it’s been 7 years. And while I have the GPA information, it’s not something I would put on a resume (a solid B+, basically).
    I listed it, and moved on. The next line asks for your SAT, GRE, GMAT, etc scores.
    O..kay. Now we have a genuine issue. I took the SATs in 1995, at age 15. I was a high school sophomore who had no concept of the potential important of the SATs and got something like a 1300 (near perfect verbal, rock bottom math). Also nothing I would brag about or put on a resume.
    Leaving aside that putting one’s SAT scores and GPAs on the resume, unless you are just out of college AND they are *perfect* or very, very high, I feel like this is not great hiring practices.
    The ATS application form was the same way: asked for my SAT scores, asked for my GPA and my GPA in my major.

    I feel like this indicates that the company is looking for a very particular type of person:
    High achiever in academics, Type A, a great test taker, someone who took school ULTRA seriously, etc.

    I’m mid-career and the interviewer said he was “thrilled” to see my resume (which is jammed with awards and accomplishments) in the pile, so…

    Should I be worried about this focus on the SATs and the GPA, or should I be brushing this off as a form that’s used for 90% of the employees, who ARE just out of college or are interns?

    1. NaoNao*

      *Augh, “Leaving aside that putting one’s SAT scores and GPA on the resume…” should continue and be “looks out of touch and odd”.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      Are they required fields? Even if they are, it doesn’t mean that the company is paying much attention to them. Unless there’s something to indicate that they are. In which case, yikes.

      2. NaoNao*

        Oh, they’re required. Not only are they on the ATS, but they’re unavoidably part of the “executive summary” I had to fill out and turn in. Yikes is where I’m at too. I did ask about it, and they said it’s a “data point they collect from all candidates” and I’m like “to do WHAT with?” but I kept it zipped.

  184. Now? Or later?*

    I am an attorney with a firm job right now that I like a lot. I’m a 4th year, so ‘mid level’ and I probably don’t want to make partner. I randomly saw a job posting recently for an in-house position that I would LOVE – in a couple years. (They also want 7 years experience, so the feeling might be mutual that now isn’t the time.) problem is, I kind of want to apply now. There aren’t many positions available in this niche – there are maybe 5 employers in my large city that could even have a position like this. There is no guarantee that when I’m ready for it, it will be open then with any of them. Do I apply now and just see if it goes anywhere? Or keep it in the back of my mind for when I am actually ready to make a move?

    1. Ruffingit*

      Apply now. The job is open now. Who knows if it will be later? I see nothing wrong with going for it now. Wanting 7 years experience doesn’t mean you have no shot. Go for it and report back with what happens! GOOD LUCK!

  185. Jessen*

    Curiosity question about references. I spent a lot of time in an academic field where reference letters were common. There was an issue that some people had found that women would consistently get less positive references than men – even when the reference writer thought the woman was the more qualified candidate. What was happening was that reference writers (probably unconsciously) emphasized traditionally feminine strengths such as “friendliness” or “helpfulness” in a field where things like “hardworking” or “intelligent” were what people were looking for.

    If one were in a situation to be concerned about that, how would you approach it with a reference writer?

    1. OtterB*

      It’s not out of line to tell a reference writer what you’d like them to focus one – e.g. your work on subject A or your contribution to project B. Emphasizing the skills and knowledge over the hard skills might frame the reference for them.

      Depending on the individual, it might be fine to do this explicitly. “As I understand it, women in our field are more likely than men to get references that emphasize how helpful they are instead of how accomplished they are. While I hope I am helpful, that’s not the total image I’d like to present to Employer.”

    1. nep*

      (OK — just made it smaller with CTRL -. But really, I wonder why their site looks like that. Or perhaps it’s on this computer or something.)

    2. AnonAndOn*

      Talk about coincidence. I was on Randstad’s site earlier today applying to temp jobs. It looks oversized to me too.

      1. nep*

        Yes — I was glad to see that CTRL – works to reduce the size. A handful of jobs on a page rather than one or two. And it’s just so unappealing.

  187. Guy Incognito*

    I need help getting clarity about my current job situation and how I want to proceed with my career.

    My manager left one month ago and it’s been absolute chaos since. Many of his responsibilities were passed down to me, as well as my colleagues, and I’ve also been saddled with a difficult, thankless project without the necessary time or resources to complete it well. Even though my manager gave plenty of notice, there has been no word from upper management on whether she will be replaced, how responsibilities will be distributed, or whether our team will be getting any relief from our increased responsibilities.

    Reviews are also just around the corner for us. At the moment, it’s hard for me to be optimistic about the next year, or to feel like I want to stick around at the current pace I’m being worked. Logically, I know this happens to be a very painful time and that things will get better in a few weeks. If I can pull of this horrible project, it will a great thing to put on my resume. However, with absolutely no word on what kind of team upper management wants to build, but with the promise of more projects to come, maybe it won’t?

    In general, I like my company. My colleagues are fantastic. My former manager was also great, and a big reason why I liked coming in to work. The projects we have on the horizon are exciting, but without good leadership, the next year could be an epic disaster.

    Maybe this is more of a rant than a question, but I don’t want to go into my review or discussions with upper management with a negative outlook that’s driven by stress and anxiety. But I also want to be realistic and look out for myself. Ironically, the summer was quiet and I found myself wondering how much longer I wanted to stay here, and what I wanted my next move to be. Do all signs point to “go”?

    1. atexit8*

      It doesn’t hurt to look at the jobs out there.
      It is hower the end of September, and you have at most until the middle of November before companies seem to shut down on hiring because of the holidays.

  188. Tellingitlikeitis*

    This week, I had one of those epic conversations with my boss wherein I told her everything that makes the whole team unhappy particularly her egregious brand of unprofessional behavior with treating us all like we’re total idiots and being condescending. I also called her out for lying to us about a really important thing that caused the team to lose a couple of people. I did this all professionally of course. I taped the conversation (legal in my state) in case there’s any lying going on about what I said. I fully expect to be fired. But even with that, it’s amazing how good it felt to just say it.

      1. Tellingitlikeitis*

        She tried to make some arguments that made no sense given the context. So I called her out on those too. Again, did it professionally. There wasn’t much she could say as she knows I’m right. Turnover is literally 90% there. I’ve been there 2 years and on a team of 10 people, I have the third highest seniority. It’s ridiculous.

        My boss is fairly robotic about much of her interactions with others and this was no exception. She had no real emotions. That’s the norm for her. Since then, she’s been much more polite and professional with me. My team was quite grateful that I stuck my neck out like this. I was happy to do it. I love my team, we’re really close and it just needed to be done.

  189. Eponymous Clent*

    Hooray for good bosses! On Wednesday, a coworker I’ve never met posted a crude joke to our work IM. It’s in a dusty corner where almost no one saw it, but after some hesitation, I decided to go ahead and report it. It was a little harder to because both his boss and my boss were out of the office, but I mentioned it to my grandboss — “you need to go look at this.”

    So today my grandboss and his boss had a little chat with me & told me that they also looked at his work & there were some other problems and indications that he was a difficult employee, and they let him go! Yay! I mean, I don’t want them to let someone go lightly (and I don’t think they did), and I was prepared to wait through him being put on warning and waiting for him to do it again, etc., etc. — but it didn’t play out that way. And after a lifetime of having stuff like that being downplayed and not taken seriously, it honestly feels really good that someone listened to me and I didn’t have to justify myself.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      That must have been a huge relief. And you know, you didn’t get him fired – he is just reaping what he sowed.

  190. Madame X*

    I am a researcher and I recently found out that my contract will not be renewed for the next year. I have a little over a month to find a new position. My resume is up to date because I had already been applying to jobs since August. However, I have not had any interviews yet. I’m actively searching on Linked In and other sites, going to professional networking events and reaching out to professionals working in industries or for companies that I am highly interested in.

    But mostly, I’m just trying not to freak out.

    I knew that my position was temporary and had actively been making moves to find a new position but this recent news has completely reduced the timeline I thought I had (about a year, now only 1 month). Thankfully, my boss is sympathetic and has offered to help in any way she can. If you have been in this type of situation how did you handle it?

    1. Anna Held*

      Panic and alcohol.

      I don’t mean to be flippant, but you’re doing what you can. It just takes time. I always marvel at the people on these boards who are actively offered jobs, or find something within a couple weeks. Witchcraft, I tell you.

  191. Mimmy*

    Has anyone ever felt like they were in a job that, in hindsight, should’ve required more training than what you have?

    I teach keyboarding to blind and visually impaired adults. While I have a Masters, it is not in education, and I came to this job with no teaching / instructional experience – which I did disclose during the interview (though at the time, I thought I was going to be an aide, not a true instructor). My supervisor, who I get along with well, says it isn’t “rocket science”, but I would think they’d want to hire instructional staff who have appropriate training. It doesn’t help that many of the students seem to have additional disabilities, which are often not mentioned in the intake. I would think that’s somewhat important to know!

    I am getting positive feedback, though, so I must be on the right track! Though I will admit that this is not something I see myself doing long-term.

  192. Mimmy*

    On a somewhat related note – I’m beginning to wonder if traditional employment really is for me. I sometimes wonder if I’m better off doing freelance projects–doing what, I’m not sure yet. I’ve also thought of becoming a consultant, but I have a feeling I need years to build up to that, and I’m already approaching my mid-40s!

    Another thing I’ve thought of doing is medical transcription. I love medical terminology, and it’s in my genes–my dad and many relatives are in the medical field. I’m not ready to give up on my other passions just yet, but this one is a definite alternate option.

    Ahh decisions, decisions!

    1. Anon anon anon*

      I’ve been free from traditional employment for 2.5 years now.

      Things I like about it:

      – The freedom! I can be myself, set my own hours, do a variety of different jobs, adjust based on what’s working, etc.

      – Being paid roughly in proportion to how hard I work. In 9-5 jobs, I found it frustrating that there were few rewards for extra effort. I like to push myself and see how successful I can be, both financially and otherwise.

      Drawbacks:

      – Income instability. I earn less and it’s less predictable. I’ve had utilities shut off and gone without food. But as time goes by, I’m getting better at it and increasing my income.

      – Taxes are more complicated. I haven’t gotten the hang of it yet and I’m scared of making mistakes. But I hear good things from people who have been self employed a long time, that once you figure it out, you find all kinds of things you can write off, etc.

      – It can be isolating at times, being a one person company. I don’t mind, but I can see it getting to some people.

      Things I would recommend (just my two cents):

      – Go into it with some savings if you can so there’s something to fall back on if you hit any rough patches.

      – Find a good CPA who can help with your taxes the first year. Or take a class on running a small business. In many areas, there are free ones.

      – Do a variety of things and adjust based on what you enjoy and are good at. I usually have a few things going at a time. It’s been a really good kind of career exploration. I’ve dropped some things that weren’t working out and invested more in the things that were.

      If you’re self-motivated and independent, you’ll probably like it. If you prefer to be on a team with a leader and clear instructions, maybe not, but who knows!

    2. Beth Anne*

      I feel the same way. Especially because I’m 31 and feel like I’m just running in circles career-wise. I graduated in 2008 during the recession and since then have had a really hard time finding stable work. No one has ever offered PTO or Health Benefits. And Most work is low-paying. I like taking time off to travel and go to the doctor and hate having to get it all approved.

      So going freelance really I don’t have much to lose benefits wise. It’s just hard to take the plunge and put myself out there.

  193. atexit8*

    I started a job two weeks ago on 9/11.
    I was off this past Wednesday.
    The next day I found out that a co-worker was let go the day before on Tuesday.

    I didn’t know that co-worker very well.

    Should I email the co-worker and ask her how she is?
    If so, what should I say?

    I am not sure the proper etiquette for something like this.

    1. Courtney*

      I would say definitely not. I think e-mailing a laid off coworker would be reserved for those who knew her well, not people who are brand new to the company.

  194. Bea*

    We had a person who was supposed to be a temp-to hire in for two weeks, in that time they called in 4 times and therefore we decided it wasn’t going to work out. I went through their desk and email box to make sure that we didn’t have orders or anything hanging out. Holy crap I found a ton of stuff in the email that was simply deleted that was pretty straight forward stuff that could have been forwarded to anyone for a response since they were clearly not comfortable responding or just lacked that few ‘efs to give about the whole process.

    I’m glad they were a flake, we were stuck in a bad back and forth with my boss-boss that was “we should be patient, right? It’s okay that it’s taking them awhile to catch onto this…right?” No. No. No. No. No!

    I’m interested in if anyone else has found things after the fact when someone marginal was let go or quit. This is the first time that I’ve been in this position. I was super pissed and slamming things around because within the deleted questions that should have been answered was also a purchase order that should have been processed a week ago. Thankfully we found it before we just deleted their email account and moved on from that situation.

    Total situation of “Such a nice person, too bad they’re kind of flaky and aloof!” BLEH!!!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Years ago I had an editor who quit quite suddenly. Which was when we discovered just how many pictures of motorbikes he’d been looking at online when he claimed he was working.

  195. Snazzy Hat*

    Has anyone had a good outcome from working at a place with a crappy reputation?

    My s.o. recently attended a job fair, and when he handed a recruiter his resume, she saw his current workplace — Joaquin’s Teapots — and said, “can I ask you something? I’ve been receiving a lot of applications from people at Joaquin’s Teapots. what’s going on over there?” Now the recruiter didn’t specify if she was getting a lot of applicants from the manufacturing side or the distribution side of Joaquin’s Teapots, but my s.o. was able to politely leave it at “it’s hectic.” Moving along, the recruiter was very impressed with my s.o.’s resume and his eagerness to apply for the position she was talking about; e.g., pay is good, hours are exactly what he needs, location is good, and she kept asking “is that okay?” when she’d reveal one of those.

    Fast forward to a few days later. My s.o. learns one of his co-workers recently had an interview (unsure where), and the interviewer had commented, “we get a lot of applications from people at Joaquin’s Teapots. what’s going on over there?” Does this effectively mean Joaquin’s Teapots is where people go to kill their careers?

    We’re extra worried because the recruiter my s.o. spoke with seemed over the moon but it’s been a week and a half of nothing. By the way, this isn’t a “why are you leaving so soon” thing either; he’s been there a year and a half & has previous experience in the industry.

    1. Courtney*

      I think it’s just that they’re assuming Joaquin’s Teapots must be having serious issues if that many employees are looking to leave. Something like terrible management people want to get away from, layoffs happening soon, etc.

      Unfortunately, the fact that they’re receiving so many applications probably means that they have a very wide pool of applicants to choose from, and are already in the interview stages with some of them. So I would just follow Alison’s general advice to assume nothing will come of it and move on. if he does get a call, that way it’s a happy surprise.

  196. Anxious Rambler*

    I have reached the paranoid point of my job search.

    So naturally, I’m wondering if recruiters lie? I’m looking for a new position and have gotten great feedback from reputable recruiters*. But somehow I’m never “right for the position”.

    I have asked if I should revamp my resume, if there’s a specific skill that I need to learn or if there are “bonus” skills I should be picking up. But all I ever hear is that they won’t present me to job posting x or y because I’m not quite what the company is looking for, but they’re sure something will be coming up soon that will be a good fit. So keep in touch!

    The lack of specific answers is driving me nuts. It’s making me doubt my skills, my competence and my sanity. Plus I’m in that space where anytime I see an employee being an idiot I get mad even if I wouldn’t want their job. Because how come that dummy got hired but I’m still twisting in the wind?

    Is there a way to word questions to recruiters to get me answers I can use? Or do I just gut it out?

    * the recruiters I’m using are all long time established small agencies. One is a personal acquaintance who I worked with in the past.

  197. Background Check Question*

    What kinds of things can be included in a background check run by an employer?

    Asking for a friend. :-)

    1. NaoNao*

      IAMAL, but generally it depends.
      If your potential employer is an ordinary corporation, they’ll most likely run a simple criminal check, which I *believe* screens for felonies only. If I recall correctly, misdemeanors “drop” off the record after 7 years (I could be wrong about this too!) and they won’t show on a background check after that point.
      They may run a credit check for things like evictions and bankruptcy, or they may look at the score in general, but that’s usually just for places where you’d be in a financial position of trust.
      Employers may also go one step further and call your colleges, previous jobs, etc and see if the dates and general information match up to what you listed, but I’ve never seen any evidence of that in my last few jobs.
      Now, if you’re trying to get a clearance, that’s a totally different animal, and I couldn’t tell you! (I wish I could, because the job I’m in the middle of interviewing for *may* require a clearance, and I wish I knew what they were looking for!)

          1. Background Check Question*

            Thank you all! I’ve been wondering about this for a long time. I’ve never had a felony or a misdemeanor, fortunately. My credit isn’t great, but there’s nothing alarmingly weird on there and I’ve never worked in finance. However, I have had multiple employers start treating me very differently after running a background check. They go from treating me like a normal person to treating me like I’m intellectually disabled or something like that. Talking to me really slowly, being really condescending. I’ve always wondered wtf is coming up? Where is it coming from? And what can I do about it?

  198. Purple snowdrop*

    Thought for the week:
    It’s amazing how fast things can move when the stars align and someone senior thinks a resigning colleague should be replaced ASAP.
    Also, said colleague took exception to a report which mentioned that he was resigning. So that was odd. Because… he is?! People are weird.

    1. Observer*

      If said employee took exception, you may want to give a look at what’s going on on their social media or even work email. We had a situation once where a person was leaving and took exception with the boss letting people know – It turns out that they were planing to use their position to further the new enterprise they were trying to start.

  199. Courtney*

    Just needed to share my excitement somewhere – I just heard from my university that my student teaching application has officially been sent out to two local districts! So it almost feels like job searching, except of course not really since I didn’t get to choose what districts to apply to – I just had to put together the best application I could and cross my fingers that my university picks some good places for me. Now comes the waiting and the interview. Although unlike a regular job search, obviously I know I’ll get picked for something since it’s a thing for school – if neither of these two districts are interested they’ll just send out my application to more until they find a district/teacher willing to take on a student teacher next semester.

    But I’m just so excited that I’m really at this stage! The end is actually near and I get to start doing what I’ve been training to do for the past several years! I’ve loved all of my teaching experiences so far, so I’m mostly excited but also a bit nervous about wanting to make the best first impression possible. And also nervous about whether or not I’ll get a good mentor teacher. Last year I did a pre-student teaching placement meant to be strictly observation, and the teacher would literally just tell me to make a lesson plan about some aspect of writing for that day, and then he would go sit in the lounge and grade papers while I taught. In some ways I suppose that built my confidence up – I was basically thrown into the deep end and found out I could do it. But I’d prefer a mentor teacher who gives me actual feedback. We’ll see what happens, but for the time being I’m just super excited that things are moving forward!

  200. Sparkly Librarian*

    Takeaways from this morning’s meeting with boss and small workgroup:

    Storytime is totally my favorite part of the job.

    But also in my favorites is when they give me a couple thousand bucks and tell me to spend it on books.

  201. May*

    It’s late but I’m wondering, how do promotions work in your office?

    My manager let me know a few days ago that I was getting a promotion and that it would be official within a week or two. They said to expect a piece of paper on my desk.

    This is my first full time perm job, so I’m not really sure what this means. Will the paper just have details but not really matter? Do i have to sign/agree to something?

    I’m happy to have my work recognized but definitely in unfamiliar territory.

    1. Samata*

      It’s may be different in different places but anytime I have gotten a promotion I have had to sign paperwork, similar to my offer letter, stating the new rate/salary and new title (if applicable). And yes, they’ve pretty much just appeared a few days before the pay period in which the raise is supposed to take place.

  202. Beth Anne*

    Things that suck…your place of work not having power for 2 weeks because of Hurricane Irma. I know people have it much worse than me in terms of damage and stuff but when you have no PTO and are straight hourly that loss of income just sucks. I’m grateful I have savings to cover my bills and live with family so I don’t have that many but I know there are so many people that just suffered from the loss of work…especially others that I work with.

    It makes me wonder if I should invest in some kind of short-term disability insurance or FMLA or something especially because in about a year or so my husband and I are hoping to have a baby and I’ll be out of work for maternity.

    1. AudreyParker*

      Ugh, I can’t even imagine :( Multiple HR people that I follow on Twitter were posting during the hurricanes to share how they felt companies should handle the inevitable issues that would come up for employees, including covering pay for a period of time given the circumstances. Easier said than done for many, I’m sure. FMLA just allows unpaid leave, I believe, but worth looking into short-term disability to see if it would cover maternity leave while you’re thinking about it – mine is not that pricey given the alternative. Good luck, I hope they get things sorted soon!

  203. Willow Sunstar*

    Doing good in my new job. Survived first week. Not a peep from HR about the former bullying manager. And new boss is nice. Socially awkward, but nice, which I will take any day over being hollered at in front of people over minor crap.

  204. nep*

    I reckon this has been covered before — but has anyone landed a job that was advertised on Indeed? What percentage of vacancies posted there are legit, in your view?

    1. MissDissplaced*

      Yes! I recently used Indeed in my job search and had great luck with it.
      Over 3 months I had about 15 phone screens, 6 in person interviews and 2 offers.
      I found most of the postings to be real, from recognized companies I’d heard of, but I’m sure a few were not. I also had a few notifications of positions being cancelled.
      Basically, use it as a tool to find openings, but not your only source.

      1. nep*

        Great. Thanks. And well done — clearly you’re representing yourself well in your resume and letter, and doing well in interviews. Nice record.

  205. Anon anon anon*

    I’m going to delete my LinkedIn account. I’m not getting anything out of it. Instead, it’s just a lot of TMI and I feel forced to keep in touch with people I don’t want to keep in touch with.

    I’ve had a weird life. I can’t complain. There’s been a lot of good to balance out the bad, but the bad things have been really bad and have impacted my jobs and career options. My resume comes with Context that I can’t put on LinkedIn. I feel really misrepresented by the whole thing. It’s not helping me. It’s a relic of a time when I was willing to pretend to be someone I’m not* in order to get income stability and health insurance.

    In its place, I plan to build out a personal website and portfolio. I think this will be more useful.

    But it’s so hard to take the plunge! Will I regret it? Once you delete your LinkedIn account, you can’t get it back. I’ll lose a lot of connections, some of which I appreciate having, and endorsements. Mostly for things I don’t want to be endorsed for. But they’re still good to have. And yet, the forced contact, the stalkers… It’s not worth all the down sides. Hopefully I’ll go through with it this weekend.

    *Gender and basic personality thing. Masculine, sciencey person stuck in pink collar jobs, stuff like that. Stuff that is basic and hard to fake.

    1. Anon anon anon*

      I did it! No more LinkedIn. Getting ready to put up a personal website once the host stops having technical difficulties.

        1. Anon anon anon*

          I think it will be! I’m feeling really good about it. Slowly downsizing my social media presence and replacing it with ways to showcase my work online. Saving the social stuff for in person.

          1. Samata*

            Good for you! I have been thinking about this for awhile and am excited for you. I don’t seem to have some of the problems you have had but I often feel like while I am connected with more people I lack meaningful relationships because it’s all online!

  206. To Start or Not to Start Job Search*

    I have trouble deciding on whether I should start my job search now or wait a bit later. I worked in accounting and I am not very satisfied with my job. I have gotten an undergrad degree and a masters degree in this subject area, but despite the years of study I am still not really that good at accounting. I am currently working as an accountant at a nonprofit. I can take on the tasks that I have on hand at this moment, but I think sometime in the future my tasks may present many challenges to me. I don’t have any friends at my workplace and I don’t like communicating with the local units who present accounting documents to me. The documents are usually terribly organized, and the units keep sending it in like this after I reminded them many times. My manger cannot do anything about it.

    Here are the following things I don’t like about my job.

    1) I don’t get along with anyone in my workplace. I know from the start before I applied to the job that I will not get along with the people I will work with. However, due to my lack of luck finding an accounting position in the past and my parents encouragement on not letting an opportunity go to waste, I applied anyway and got accepted. Upon starting my first day at the job, I got into misunderstandings/miscommunication/social blunders that really started a downward spiral with my colleagues and my overall satisfaction at my new job. 

    2) I don’t really like how my department arranges workloads. While I was there, two senior managers got promoted and one employee quit. I later on got promoted and part of my promotion is to take on some of the projects the two senior managers used to do. Even with an employee gone, my department will not hire a new employee, instead the work the former employee did was assigned to the remaining colleagues. This led to an even more unsatisfaction with most of everyone in the department.

    3) My department uses a number of inefficient software programs that no one likes. One of them is our cash payments program, which requires multiple levels of signatures within our organizations local units and within our own department. I am one of the people who needs to provide signatures to get the system to enter cash payments in our system. I am assigned to this task so that one of the promoted senior managers don’t need to do it. I am not familiar with the cash payments system, but my manager said I just need to see if there are backup documents and just click “approve.” It doesn’t make sense to me why I, who have not done any cash payments accounting, will be assigned a role in this process. It seems that the software require more independent signatures than this department have in available employees.

    4) With the great dislike of the inefficient software and the heavier workloads, no one wants to help each other. Especially helping out with my work. When I asked for help during my first busy season, I heard a lot of snipe comments about the amount of work I am sending out to the others. I don’t like this and I am not sure if I want to assign my work to any of my colleagues again. I avoided it in my second busy season, but I am not sure if I can do it on my next one.

    5) I am not sure if what I am learning in my job will be useful for me in the future when I searched for new jobs. I learned mostly corporate accounting, but I am currently working in a nonprofit. I notice that there are accounting applications my nonprofit does a little different than what I have read in textbooks. I wonder if that is unique to nonprofits or is that something that is insignificant that my nonprofit can just get away with. I am not sure if other workplaces will be doing things this way, and that is why I am uncertain whether things I am learning in my organization now will help me in my future job search.

    6) I have other family members who worked for the nonprofit, but at a different region, and I generally don’t like to work in the same organization as my other family members. Sometimes they might visit me, and I tried my best to hide my networking/work failures from them.

    Here is what I like about my job so far:

    1) I have a very kind manager who is really kind and patient with me in my learning, even though I had make a number of silly mistakes and have taken awhile to learn some of the software functions. He never yells and he mostly have positive feedback for me.

    2) The work hours are flexible. I don’t have to start 9am sharp, so I can take my riding my bus to work. I can schedule vacation days easily.

    3) The job is easier than most corporate accounting or accounting firm jobs.

    4) I can work here even if I don’t have a CPA.

    5) The pay is slightly lower compared to most in my local region, but it is still a decent start for someone who is not expertly skilled in accounting.

    Another thing that concerns me regarding my job search is where I should start. Right now, I think I would not pursue a CPA license because of my overall lack of enthusiasm and skillfulness on accounting. I am not sure if I can pursue other finance/business related careers. I am not sure if I can get paid similar or higher in different jobs, because my skill level is still like a Level 1 Accountant. I also need a job and money to support my family, and they are not going to like it if I change my current job for a job that is lower pay. I have to take their need into some consideration. Therefore, overall, that is why I am confused at whether I should start job searching now. Are there other things I will need to consider?

    2. Beth Anne*

      Honestly it doesn’t hurt to test the waters and see what is out there. Maybe if you worked in a different non-profit or a different field you’d like it better? Like maybe a non-profit you have an interest in. I think working somewhere with low-morale can be really bad psychologically.

      I’m a bookkeeper for a local restaurant and I didn’t think I’d like it but I really enjoy the restaurant industry. But I don’t think I’d enjoy doing bookkeeping for the construction industry.

    1. Dee Smith*

      Thanks. I thought about doing that. I’m so beside myself I’ve been crying since last night. I had written a log on my phone about the incident where he squeezed himself between me and my work cart. I must have accidentally deleted it because I can find it. Last night I relived that incident when I typed up a summary of what happened. The screwed up thing about that incident is his way of trying to diffuse his embarrassment because there was a witness. He came in with a roll of tape and put some tape on the rug a couple of feet behind my chair and said he wouldn’t step over that line. He did that in front of a different secretary.

      1. Anon anon anon*

        I would go to HR or his boss (whatever seems appropriate) instead of saying anything to him directly. And keep documenting everything.

        1. Dee Smith*

          I couldn’t avoid seeing him this morning. My office is right next to his. I can’t hide my feelings. It was my first day back because school was closed last Thursday and Friday. Didn’t even have a chance to make an appointment with HR. Didn’t go well with him . He asked if I was ok. I said no and he pursued it further. Wasn’t pretty. He denied he said anything. Not easy to make an appt. with our HR person. She’s pulling double duty. She was hired as asst. sup. for a totally different dept. and this HR duty was dumped on her by sup. in addition to other duties.

  208. StressBall*

    So I know I didn’t make a great work-related decision but…

    I quit my job to move with my fiance for his Masters. He decided to go for his PhD which would increase our time in this new city/state to 5-7 years instead of 2-3. Jobs for me have been harder to come by in this area and I’m not interested in doing something I don’t really like for 7 years. So I started job searching back home and in places we’re looking for live after he graduates. Two potential problems:

    1) I’m fairly young and I don’t want to look unreliable. I was at my first job 2 years, my second job (where I got promoted after 11 months) for 20 months, and my most recent position for 18 months. Now I have a gap on my resume. Is there any way to fix this?

    2) For a job I have a phone interview coming up for, I uploaded a resume that says I was still employed. I must have uploaded the wrong one by mistake. I don’t know how to fix this especially since it’s a job that would require attention to detail and I feel like I blew that.

    1. Fresh Faced*

      1) Your reason for the gap seems pretty standard I think. If someone asks about it you can say that you moved to be near your partner in city X and since jobs have been hard to come by in that area you’re looking for jobs elsewhere. (If you don’t want to disclose your relationship you can just say you moved to city X but the opportunities just weren’t there, so you’re branching out after Y months of searching.)

      2) I don’t think I’ve ever had a phone interview with someone that hasn’t asked if I’m currently employed (generally to help with scheduling the next interview stage.) I would just correct the information once it comes up. Explain that they may have an old CV of yours and offer to send them an updated one. I can’t see them having too much of an issue as your skills, experience and potential to fit the role hasn’t changed.

      Good luck on your interview and job search! =)

      1. StressBall*

        Phew! I think I have a tendency to overthink things (and worry) so thank you for the advice and well wishes. Those both sound like great ways to address both issues. One comment thread above mentioned specifically using phrasing to indicate that I’m interested in sticking around for years to help alleviate any fears about me job-hopping too.

        Thank you!

  209. PinkishCollar*

    I totally missed the boat on this thread, but what the heck…in case anyone is still listening.

    To kind of go along with the “how to get out of pink collar work” waaaaaaay above – I’ve been at my current employer for two and a half years. In that time, I’ve gone from Secretary, to a job title change and pay raise to Administrative Assistant, and then to Administrative Assistant and [non-clerical Job Title] with a pay raise.
    The Secretary position was a desperation move and major underemployment, and it only lasted four months – so I don’t list it ANYWHERE. I was Administrative Assistant for a year, and now I’ve been Administrative Assistant and [non-clerical Job Title] for about a year. The addition of [non-clerical Job Title] was a way to make work I had been doing since day one official. That is, I’ve been doing the work of [non-clerical Job Title] since I started, and my boss was awesome enough to say, “You deserve a title for it.”

    So, right now, I don’t list Administrative Assistant on my LinkedIn at all. I only list [non-clerical Job Title]. Is that okay, or is that going to bite me in the butt? My perspective is that I’ve heard advice that you don’t have to list all of your jobs ever on your resume, and I think of this like that: the admin stuff isn’t what I want to be doing, I don’t want to be pigeonholed, and it’s a small part of my job, so why emphasize it. But I don’t want to be dishonest.

    Thoughts?

  210. Fresh Faced*

    Super late question, but I was wondering if you guys have any tips for reapplying to a job that you weren’t considered for in the first place? With my first attempt (around 6 months ago) I was rejected because they hired someone the week before my application went through. I know the woman they hired (we went to the same university and spoke maybe once or twice, so not enough to really network through her) and I know she is still happily at the company and they’re just looking to hire more people for the same role for a new project.

    My cover letter has been updated to read better since then but the content is much the same. I’m not sure how to word my cover letter, since a majority copy paste of my previous letter doesn’t seem appropriate (though they might not have even read it the first time.) I’m thinking of maybe doing a short “Hey I’m still interested” email rather than a full cover letter. What does everyone think? Has anyone been in a similar situation before?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I don’t know if there’s much to do different as in this case you weren’t “rejected” so much as late to the party?
      I think just have a strong resume and cover letter.

  211. Gurl*

    I have a few questions about putting my degree on my resume. I’m graduating in May 2018 and I’ve already started working on my resume because I want to start looking to see what’s out there for jobs.

    1. My degree is a H.B.Com, which is honour’s bachelor of commerce. Some job postings ask for a bachelor of business administration, which is a BBA, and is slightly different, but my school offered both (they phased out the commerce degree a few years ago, although I didn’t want to take the first year BBA classes so I decided to stay in commerce), and they are basically the same. In my experience a lot of people have no idea what I’m talking about when I say my degree is in commerce, so can I just say I have a business degree? I feel like saying business administration would be misrepresenting but I don’t want a hiring manager to go “what’s that?” and throw my resume out because they don’t know what a commerce degree is…

    2. I switched campuses to the main campus two years through my degree because my satellite campus closed. Should I mention this on my resume or just leave it off? If I mention it, I was thinking of putting something like:
    X University, Honours Bachelor of Commerce (H.B.Com) (expected 2018)
    Campus 1 (2014-2016), Campus 2 (2016-2018)

    P.S. The main campus of my university is 3 hours away from where my parents live, and about 4 hours away from where I’m thinking of applying for jobs. Could this harm me in the job search?

Comments are closed.