open thread – October 13-14, 2017

by Alison Green on October 13, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. KK*

    I’m in a tough situation at work. About 6 months ago, my boss (and my supervisor’s boss) requested that if I had any documentation on my supervisor to bring it to him, because he wanted “to address serious issues with her” (which, I realize is rather inappropriate to tell another employee). However, my supervisor does have many serious problems (performance issues, berating employees, using the company credit card of a few personal things, leaving work for extended periods of time without telling anyone, dogging company policy to anyone that will listen, etc. – I won’t get into specifics, just know they are serious.) I hadn’t begun documenting anything, but began to document per my boss’s request.
    Now, every month or so, my boss requests new documentation on things that my supervisor says/does inappropriately. Every time I give him more, he’ll call her into his office, shut the door, and address the issues with her (along with other issues that have been brought up to my boss about my supervisor by other employees). However, because I have the most direct contact with my supervisor out of anyone in my small office, there are certain situations that my supervisor knows I was the one that “tattled” on her about. I knew that this would be the case before my supervisor began meeting with my boss, but my boss assured me that if my supervisor retaliated against me, she would be terminated.
    Since the meetings started, my supervisor has done things that indicate passive-aggressive retaliation (not responding to any of my emails, shutting the door in my face as I’m walking into the office right behind her, slamming the refrigerator door when I’m in the break room eating lunch, not responding when I say “have a good night” as I’m leaving in the evening, etc.) These may not seem like huge issues to some, but I feel as though continuing to provide my boss with documentation is putting me in an extremely awkward position with my supervisor. Yes, she is a toxic employee and honestly should have been terminated a long time ago, but prior to bringing my boss documentation, my supervisor and I still maintained a good working relationship, and she could potentially provide a great reference for me in the future. I no longer want to provide my boss with documentation when he asks for it. He keeps telling me that “she’s going to be fired, so it won’t matter soon how she’s treating you.” (Again, totally inappropriate for my boss to tell me this – what he’s doing is almost as bad as my supervisor’s serious issues, but that’s a whole different story). I really want out of this whole thing. Am I “allowed” to tell my boss that I don’t want to provide him with documentation anymore, or will it tarnish my relationship with him (which is currently a strong relationship)?

    Any thoughts/comments are appreciated!

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      Oh dear. That is an awful situation to be in. That being said, have you told your boss that she is actually retaliating against you? It may be in a passive aggressive manner, but it’s still a retaliation, especially the not responding to emails.

      1. KK*

        Yes, I have spoken to him about this. He kind of sympathizes by saying, “oh, that’s irritating” and rolling his eyes, but makes it clear that he doesn’t think it’s a big deal.

        1. Snickerdoodle*

          Ugh. Wonder what his definition of retaliation is, then. It doesn’t seem like he realizes how much her reactions are affecting your day-to-day. I agree with Snark, you can definitely bring it up, but unfortunately, I don’t think you can refuse.

          1. MoinMoin*

            He’s probably thinking more along the lines of attempting to fire KK or put her on a PIP or something. But ugh, that sounds like a pretty terrible atmosphere to be in everyday.

          2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

            This. What does he thinks constitutes retaliation? Ask him. He put you on the spot asking for specific instances. You can ask him what actions qualify. For example, boss did this. He rolls his eyes. You have to push back. “That isn’t retaliation?” Ok, how about this? Or this. Don’t let him off the hook.

        3. Snark*

          Then I think you need to reiterate that this isn’t just irritating, it’s making it difficult for you to do your job and making your work environment feel hostile, and you’re wondering what it would need to escalate to for it to count as retaliation.

        4. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          It isn’t a big deal to him. You are doing the hard part for him. He needs to be a hands on manager, as in, “I’ve witnessed you doing this. It needs to stop.” And how many times is this nonsense going to happen: Tell me what she did. She did X. You did X. And then nothing. She’s not getting fired. Ever. Proceed with this information and act accordingly. Find a new job while you have this one and then you will have an out for excluding crazy, passive-aggressive, rotten employee and over all lousy person as a reference.
          By the way, her manager screwed you over and is a jag.

          1. Specialk9*

            This. They haven’t fired this manager, put you in an impossible spot, and are eye-rolling at retaliation. You need a new job. Any way you can find an internal transfer?

          2. Snark*

            And when the hell is this person getting fired? How long does this charade go on? It doesn’t need to be a Federal case.

          3. Lumen*

            I agree that it’s unlikely this person is going to be fired. I had a very bad experience with a coworker where I was afraid I was about to be assaulted. After I reported the situation, and my boss discussed it with company leadership, my boss told me that coworker was going to be fired. A little while later, he called me into his office to say he shouldn’t have said that, he ‘lost that battle’, and the coworker was going to continue working there.

            Never believe someone is “going to be” fired until you see them packing up their desk with a sour look on their face. And also, it’s not your job to document the reasons to fire someone. That’s for managers.

            1. Naruto*

              Agree – this person is never going to be fired. I think Boss is a wimp. So he would love to gather more and more documentation. But he already has more than enough documentation to fire Supervisor, AND on top of that he isn’t protecting OP from retaliation from Supervisor. I just have very little doubt that Boss is anything other than a big wimp who will never fire Supervisor because he wants to avoid confrontation or making a decision.

        5. Say what, now?*

          I didn’t read the whole thread…it’s long. But what I read doesn’t address the second part of your issue, which is that you don’t want to burn bridges because you might want her for a reference down the line. I don’t think that you want her for a reference. She’s definitely aware that you’ve provided information to her boss about her (I’m not saying you were wrong to do so when you were asked by your boss’s boss no less) and she’s upset. She probably won’t forgive you even if she finds out that you eventually refused to provide any more information so I’d work on building new references to replace hers.

          Sorry you’re in this mess.

          2. Kyrielle*

            Yeah, the bridge is well aflame. Launching fire extinguishers now will still leave it a smoking ruin.

            Because she’s your supervisor but not your manager, you can get away with listing your actual manager as the reference if you preserve that relationship. If you try to put out the fire that is the bridge with your supervisor, you’ll lose both.

            Not that *either* of them are trustworthy references given the way they’re acting. But one is not going to turn around and recover, and the other might be an okay reference until you get better if he stays happy with you. (That said, you don’t have to keep providing him lots of info; you can scale back and stick to what everyone knows, or mostly what everyone knows, if you prefer. But it won’t un-burn the bridge with your supervisor.)

          3. Pineapple Incident*

            I agree that this bridge is totally burned and that this person (supervisor) shouldn’t be a reference anyway if they’ve got major performance issues at their job that have required higher-level involvement for at least weeks if not months. I would definitely bring up with your boss though that the passive-aggressive actions from your supervisor since this documentation phase began have made you worry about her potential effect on your reputation. I would ask your boss if there is someone else that should serve as an official point of contact to confirm your work history/performance as a reference in the future, whenever it is that you decide to move on (obviously, depending on your relationship with this person, this might not be possible- the eye rolling really worries me). Also depending on your relationship with Boss, you could tell them that the whole situation has led you to reflect on your future with the company and you’re re-evaluating whether you’d like to stay on/how long.

            I’m sorry you’re going through this, and hope it ends okay.

        7. Optimistic Prime*

          This makes no sense on his end. If it’s this kind of behavior that’s motivating him to document all of the issues to push her out, wouldn’t documenting her retaliation against you just be even more fodder for firing her in the first place?

    2. WellRed*

      Yes! Tell him it makes you uncomfortable to do it in the first place, that you don’t feel it’s entirely appropriate and that it absolutely matters how she treats you!

      1. Specialk9*

        It’s closing the barn door after the entire herd got out. That relationship can’t be repaired.

    3. Snark*

      You can bring this to his attention and say, “I feel that Supervisor’s behavior towards me is becoming so passive-aggressive that it’s rising to the level of retaliation. I feel that I’m in an awkward place here, and I’m certain that she knows I’ve been informing you about issues. This is really affecting my work and work day, and I’m wondering if you’re going to need my documentation moving forward.” But I don’t think you can outright refuse. This is a request from your grandboss.

      That said, you don’t really want a recommendation, even a good one, from someone so thoroughly toxic and unethical.

      1. Specialk9*

        The manager isn’t responding to emails and is giving the comment treatment. It’s not passive aggressive, which is easy to dismiss, it’s aggressive.

        This situation is a no win. I’d consider going to HR and using lawsuit worry buzz words – retaliation, hostile work environment – and state that it’s affecting your ability to do your job.

        1. Amber T*

          This is pushing it a bit too far I think. The supervisor is acting childish and passive aggressive and it borderlines retaliation (I’m not sure it’s quite there yet), but bringing up lawsuit buzz words, including “hostile work environment” where none of this is considered “hostile” (that’s only if the supervisor is acting this way because OP is a protected class) would just cause unnecessary problems. I think going to HR and discussing how boss/grandboss putting OP into a difficult position could be a good idea (focusing on the boss/grandboss problems)… then again, asking for these kinds of reports very well may be coming from them.

          OP, it might just be time for a job hunt, because if they’re going through such a ridiculous process (asking for your feedback once or twice regarding your supervisor is fine, but having you continuously provide reports is just ridiculous) to fire an inept employee, they’re risking pushing out capable, good employees.

            1. Working Hypothesis*

              Only if the HR person really doesn’t know what they’re talking about — otherwise, they’d immediately recognize that this just isn’t a situation in which they could possibly apply, and therefore they’re a sign that the *speaker* doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

              It would be a different story if there could be any kind of case made for the theory that this was because of membership in a protected class… HR people are paid to be paranoid about lawsuits. But implicitly threatening one over something that’s perfectly legal, using buzzwords incorrectly, is kind of the equivalent of threatening to sue a private citizen with no government role for “infringing your freedom of speech.” All it does is let them know that you’re too ignorant of the law to take seriously as a danger.

      2. AFRC*

        Yes, explain how it’s affecting you. Your boss is obviously clueless, but spelling it out might help a bit. Good luck!!

    4. Marcy Marketer*

      I mean ideally you would have never agreed to this in the first place! Going forward, ask to be excluded from feedback meetings. Tell your boss that you find this work distracting and that you need to focus on key work projects. Say it warmly and apologetically. If your boss says she needs your feedback, tell her that you’ve provided plenty and you hope it will be enough, and that you don’t think additional feedback from you is productive.

      I would apologize to your supervisor and tell her that you were in a bad situation and didn’t know how to handle it. Tell her you’ve been asked to be excused from future meetings.

      If either your boss or your supervisor brings this up with you again, say, “it’s such a hard situation! I hope it will be resolved soon!” And leave ASAP.

      1. Perse's Mom*

        It doesn’t sound like grand-boss is reading off a list and attributing info to specific employees (they speak to him or send him info, he then has a private one-on-one chat with the boss), rather that some things are unlikely to have had a source other than KK, but I don’t see how leaving NO doubt that she’s passed info to the grand-boss is going to do anything but encourage further retaliation on the boss’s part.

        It could also negatively affect her relationship with the grand-boss, particularly if her info is strong enough to be the deciding factor in getting Boss moved on.

        1. KK*

          “It doesn’t sound like grand-boss is reading off a list and attributing info to specific employees (they speak to him or send him info, he then has a private one-on-one chat with the boss), rather that some things are unlikely to have had a source other than KK.”

          ^yes.

      2. Observer*

        There is no way that the OP should apologize for her actions. It’s not just that she has nothing to apologize for. It’s that, at best, it’s unlikely to help, and at worst, it will make things worse.

        Supervisor is a jerk, and is not likely to react well or graciously to the OP’s apology. She IS likely to take this as an admission that the OP was wrong – which is not the case.

    5. SilverRadicand*

      Those small retaliations that the supervisor is doing are things you can and should bring up to the boss. Both as an example of why you don’t want to be part of this process and also simply because those are even further indications that the supervisor is not fit to be a supervisor.

      1. KK*

        I have spoken to him about this. He kind of sympathizes by saying, “oh, that’s irritating” or “that’s typical of her” and rolling his eyes, but makes it clear that he doesn’t think it’s a big deal. You would indeed think the fact that my boss knows it’s typical of her to be passive aggressive indicate that she’s not fit for her position.

        1. Mephyle*

          Time to spell it out for him. “You said, ‘if your supervisor retaliates against you, she will be terminated.’ She is retaliating. It is impeding me from doing my job properly. What are you going to do about it?”
          And if he continues to say, “Nothing, that’s not what I meant by ‘retaliation’,” it is time to take measures. Like stopping the reporting for starters, up to possibly getting out and into a different job.

        2. Someone else*

          It’s possible he’s reacting that way because he’s already decided to fire her. Not that it makes his response appropriate but if they’re moving in that direction, more examples of supervisor’s bad behaviour is sort of moot. However, if that’s the case, then he doesn’t need more examples from you at all, about the retaliation or otherwise.

    6. D.W.*

      Ooof. This is certainly a bit of a pickle.
      I believe that you are well within your right to stop providing documentation to your boss for a number of reasons 1) She is already made aware of your supervisor’s inappropriate behavior 2) you have provided extensive accounts of your and your supervisor’s interactions 3) doing so is jeopardizing your current work relationship and your ability to get your work done (supervisor not responding to your emails).

      The fact that “she will be fired soon” doesn’t help the fact that she’s not fired *now*, and it’s causing strain. If you frame it from the perspective that “this is affecting my ability to do my job” and tell her (boss) that you have the most interaction with her, so the information you are providing is *not* anonymous, hopefully your boss won’t take it poorly, but honestly, you don’t need to continue. You could also ask your boss what the end game is here. Your boss has enough information to fire your supervisor. Either they will or they won’t. Don’t continue providing documentation.

      1. What the French, Toast*

        I have the same question – what’s the end game here? For them to drag this out for months while you keep getting punished for this? I would be firm that this situation has become very uncomfortable for you and you don’t want to continue. “I feel that I’ve provided enough information for the company to decide how to handle [Boss] and I cannot keep providing it. I have to continue to work with her as long as she remains here and our relationship has become so strained that working together is difficult.” Or similar, I’m kind of bad at scripts. Good luck!

        1. KK*

          I would love to know the end game. I’ve been told so many times for months know from my boss that “it’s just a matter of time until she’s terminated” that at this point, I’m doubting that she’s *EVER* going to be let go if she hasn’t been yet. There’s too much to get into in this thread, but it’s absolutely shocking that she’s still employed here based on the seriousness of the issues that have come to the surface.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I’m not sure there is an endgame or even an ongoing game strategy; I think he’s just freestyling until something makes him take the scary firing step, and it’s possible nothing ever will.

            1. Lance*

              That’s certainly the sound of things. Saying ‘she’s going to be fired soon’ when this has been going on for months, with what sounds like extensive documentation, isn’t exactly encouraging.

            2. Lora*

              This. Have heard it toooooo many times. A-hole Boss will be fired soon! And indeed, A-hole boss is eventually fired…well over a year after the grandboss promised, and after a mountain of evidence was insufficient to pull the trigger and what they really needed was for the great-grandboss to shout, “grandboss, your employee is a problem, he’s fired AND YOU ARE TOO, get your crap and get out!”

          3. Amber T*

            There’s a good chance you won’t necessarily know this, but could she already be on PIP? And your reports are basically solidifying his assumptions that she’s not improving?

    7. Undine*

      Do you have an HR department? There might not be much they can or will do, but maybe hearing it fro a third party will help.

      1. KK*

        We do have an HR department, although they are located in a corporate office about an hour away from ours. My only reservation is that (according to my boss), he wants her fired, but HR is afraid she will sue, so they want more documentation. My point being, HR knows I’ve been documenting her behavior and apparently still wants more.

        1. Anna*

          Your HR is being dumb. Maybe if you do tell them about the retaliation, that will be enough for them to finally take some action, though.

          3. Beatrice*

            There may be reasons they need extensive documentation. I have a friend whose employer spent months gathering rock solid documentation times a million to support firing a problem employee. They needed extra documentation and wait time because her manager sucked and penalized her for using FMLA and gave her written documentation of it, in the form of warnings and write ups. They had to correct that, retrain him, and gather usable documentation afterward to show cause for terminating her, so it didn’t look like retaliation. Not many people knew, so it just looked like she was getting away with murder.

        2. fposte*

          Or grandboss isn’t being firm enough in saying how bad her behavior is now and that he can’t accept it any more. The “It’s all HR’s fault” seems to be pretty common when managers are looking for somebody else to haul the water on a termination.

        3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          Did HR say this to you or did your boss’ boss tell you that’s what is going on? Because I don’t think he’s reliable.

        4. JGray*

          This isn’t a matter of HR sucking. It could be that there are things such as protections under the ADA that you or your boss are not aware of. HR would be aware because that is there job. Documentation is what proves things and your boss is wrong that documentation is not going to stop someone from suing. All it does is allow the company to present it if a lawsuit is filed. I say just tell your boss or contact HR directly and tell them that you aren’t providing anymore documentation because you are being retaliated against. HR should take it seriously since your boss is not.

        5. Observer*

          So, when you provide documentation to your boss about her retaliation, send it to HR as well. This will put them on notice that they have a bigger problem than they thought, and will also give them additional ammunition to win a law suit, should it happen. That’s assuming that is really just being too cautious but is essentially competent. If they arent’s competent, you may need to start looking for a new job.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      I’ve been in a similar situation (reporting on my boss). It was horrible and I ended up leaving. I’m sorry – this sucks.

    9. Master Bean Counter*

      You need to tell your boss that you’ve given him more than enough examples of the inappropriate behavior and that you’ve not seen any improvement in the situation. Tell him at this point you’d rather redirect your energy into doing your job and getting along with your supervisor, as it seems she will be there for a while longer. Because at this point the only thing that has happened is that your working situation is getting worse, not better.

      He hasn’t fired her yet, he’s probably not going to do it.

      1. KK*

        According to my boss, he wants her fired, but HR is afraid she will sue for “discrimination on sexual orientation.” Which, by the way, is quite absurd. She lives with a woman, but has never once indicated (or told ANYONE in the office) that she is gay, and often claims that she lives with her “friend” for “financial reasons”.)

        As you mentioned, there are more than enough examples and documentation for her termination.

        1. Specialk9*

          I believe that right now, sexually orientation isn’t protected in the US, although there are some delightful cases in the Supreme Court arguing that sexual orientation is inherently about gender, which is protected. I haven’t heard that the precedent has been set though.

          1. Amber T*

            I think this depends on your state. There are plenty of states where they could fire you for your sexual orientation, but there are states where (thankfully) this is a protected class. Not saying that it’s the case here, but if it’s something that the supervisor is claiming, I get why HR wants to give it a wide berth. They’re not handling it correctly by any means though.

            1. OhNo*

              There are some states (and cities) with anti-discrimination clauses that include sexual orientation (and gender identity and presentation, sometimes). It’s possible that either KK’s location or corporate where HR is located is such a place.

              Even if they’re not, it’s not going to be very productive to try and argue HR out of the idea that they’re going to be sued. IME, someone who is convinced of something like that isn’t likely to be dissuaded.

        2. neverjaunty*

          Your grandboss needs to have a Serious Chat with HR. They should not be nervous hand-wringers over “she might sue us”. An employee can always file a lawsuit, whether or not there is anything to it – the only question is whether they have sufficiently followed their own processes and documented the issues with her behavior to justify the firing.

          (Also, it doesn’t matter if she is or isn’t a lesbian, or has told anyone she has; it’s whether animus against her based on the belief that she is a lesbian was the reason she was fired.)

        3. Observer*

          Actually, HR has a valid point here, although they are handling the situation very badly. The fact that she is apparently making excuses about her living arrangements could easily be used in court to show that she had a real fear that her orientation – or the perception of it – could work against her.

    10. Purple Jello*

      Does your boss really need documentation of more of the same behavior each month? Can you just say that it’s continuing?

      1. KK*

        No, I certainly don’t believe he does – that’s why I’m hopeful I can bow out. It’s the same pattern of behavior every month, nothing new. My documentation looks a bit like this:

        Month 1: Berated Fergus for making a minor mistake regarding customer x, complained about x company policy.
        Month 2: Berated Fergus for making a minor mistake regarding customer y, complained about xy company policy.

    11. Perse's Mom*

      Frankly, I would include her new behavior (at least the unresponsiveness and definite rudeness) in your reports. I don’t know WHY she hasn’t been let go yet, obviously, but at this point if you’re pretty certain she knows you’ve been giving grand-boss ammunition, I don’t think stopping that will change anything.

      But you CAN bring this new stuff to your grand-boss as examples of retaliation and point out that while some of the minor stuff (not responding to your goodbyes) is frustrating but ultimately ignorable, NOT responding to your emails is negatively affecting your ability to do your actual job and therefore the company’s bottom-line. How would he like you to handle that? Forward him emails that require action after X time passes with no response from Boss, or does he trust you to take the best action in your experience (get that one in writing) so that the work you’re being paid for doesn’t suffer?

      1. Margaret*

        This has happened to me in the past – not on such a high scale because it was a co-worker – and more about their performance which I had to monitor.

        I did it for about 3 months, went on holiday, came back and handed in my notice. I just couldn’t focus on my own work anymore and there was no retaliation for me but I ended up losing respect for my manager. Why did I have to keep ‘snitching’ on them when nothing was happening.

        My manager refused my notice but said I didn’t have to do this stupid thing anymore. The coworker was ‘let go’ about 3 weeks later.

        It’s your integrity that’s suffering.

          1. Margaret*

            Artemesia – I know sorry I meant they wouldn’t take my letter and phoned me at home and met with me to see what could be done to get me to stay. I said that I’d stay provided I did’t have to spy on co-worker anymore.

    12. DeeShyOne*

      This has been going on for months and your boss and HR are still dragging? I get that companies are overly careful in terminating toxic employees, but when it starts dragging out like this, to the detriment of everybody in the office…that’s just awful HR behaviour and yucky bosses.
      This can’t be fun for the Toxic One either and how long before she starts searching out her own legal rights?? From what you’ve said, I don’t believe HR and your boss’ boss are completely comprehending the bigger picture.
      Above all, protect yourself too. Document everything, keep copies of everything and repeat to yourself frequently “Not my circus, not my monkeys”
      All the best.

    13. Artemesia*

      “I am in a very awkward position where it is clear that the information you are using with Supervisor must come from me and so I have to live with my supervisor retaliating in petty ways. Management has plenty of information if they actually wanted to remove her and the longer this goes the more passive aggressive nonsense I have to live with. This isn’t tenable. I can’t be reporting on my own supervisor when that information doesn’t lead to anything but more aggravation for me.”

      Or something like that. THEY are managing this woman. If they want to fire her, they can fire her. Apparently they don’t have the guts to do that and are willing to hang you out to dry. Stop playing. And I hope you are looking for another job.

    14. Lehigh*

      This might be too much confrontation, but could you have a talk with your supervisor? Something like, “Hey, obviously grandboss has asked me to document the things you do. Clearly we both know that I’m doing this, and unfortunately I’ve been told it’s mandatory. I don’t like doing it, but I have to because I need this job. So don’t do things in front of me that you wouldn’t do in front of the boss. I’m sorry that we’re in this position, but there’s nothing I can do about it. If you aren’t going to stop doing shady things while I’m around, that’s your decision.”

      I don’t know if I would ever actually muster up the courage to say that so directly, but from over here on the other side of the internet it seemed like a worthwhile idea. You’re not telling her anything she doesn’t know about reporting on her, except to remind her that it’s not your decision.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      No, you do not have to keep doing this if you do not want to. It’s above and beyond the call of duty.

      I am not impressed with how long this is taking and how involved you are. One or two chats should be enough.
      Tell the big boss that this is putting a lot of stress on you. Google the characteristics of a work place bully, print out the list and check off all that apply. Tell him that it is too difficult to work this way. Explain to him while these things do not seem like much many, many people would just leave the job. Bullying stands alone as a reason to fire because it kills the company’s ability to retain good help.

      However, I would caution you about relying on this toxic boss as a reference. I do not think she is capable of being reliable and I would not trust her to provide a good reference for me. You say you have a great relationship with your big boss so that should be adequate right there.

    16. Jules the Third*

      Your boss is already lost as far as retaliation or reference. Her behavior will continue until she’s fired (or you leave), and she’ll never give you a good reference. What you need is to keep working, and to maintain a good relationship with Grandboss. So:
      1) Keep documenting the bad behavior, keep it neutral, that looks great.
      2) Document the retaliation *as harassment due to retaliation*, *especially* not answering emails or slamming a door in your face. WTH, Evil Boss, WTH.
      3) Ask Grandboss if there’s a timeline for her termination, because Boss’s behavior has only gotten worse (see#1). Maybe mention that you don’t feel protected work-wise, and ask if there’s a way you can physically move to a desk farther from her to cut down on her opportunities for harassment. While this isn’t *quite* ‘hostile workplace due to retaliation’, it is still harassment, and you need a break, or a light at the end of the tunnel.
      4) Once a month, as a counterpoint to the ‘Boss Performance Dance’, make sure you send Grandboss a note with your accomplishments for the month. Talk to him about it beforehand, saying you want someone who is not your Evil Boss to be in a position to do a fair performance review, because it’s clear that Evil Boss won’t. You can also compile those into a ‘Guide to my job and accomplishments’ for the New Boss that will hopefully come someday, or for your resume’ if you do give up on this company.

      Good luck, office politics suck

    17. Blue_eyes*

      This situation stinks and I hope they are able to terminate her soon.

      In the meantime, could you keep giving evidence to your boss, but only give examples that are more general or were witnessed by multiple people? That way the issues boss talks to her about will not be so obviously from you. That may be the best strategy to keep boss happy while not giving more evidence that will cause supervisor to keep retaliating against you.

    19. Belle di Vedremo*

      I’m so sorry, this truly sucks.
      I’ve been in the position of reporting on terrible bosses twice (in a row, no less) and the second time was even worse than the first. Each time I left the organization. It seemed like the only viable option, even without another job lined up.

      The first time I filled the ear of the HR person for our dept in my exit interview and then at their request provided a written statement for them to use after I left (HR kept asking why *I* was the person leaving. I kept asking why HR had made it that way by not acting on any of the previous 4 departures from our 8 person unit). That boss stayed in place another few years after I left. The second time I collected documentation and made an appointment after hours with the board chair, and gave my resignation to the boss (carefully timed to meet final deadlines). That time, board members wanted to know why I was leaving as they believed they could fix the problem with me in place. Said that if they let the boss go that they should call me about coming back; that boss stayed another few months during which the problems grew exponentially. That office was subsequently closed.

      All of the above to say that I hope you’re job hunting, this doesn’t sound tenable and doesn’t show any sign of coming to an end. And I hope that grandboss will be a reference for you as clearly the current supervisor isn’t capable of separating her own issues from your performance. To that end, I like the suggestion of keeping grandboss informed of your work and accomplishments while you’re there – and, of course, keeping copies of that info for your own files.

      Good luck, and please keep us posted.

    20. Observer*

      I haven’t read all of the responses, but start documenting this. You want to show two things. One is the things that are affecting your work, so not answering an email that you need to get work done gets put on that list. And you should start sharing that with your grandboss along with your monthly updates on your supervisor.

      The other thing is a pervasive pattern of disrespectful behavior. Wait till you have a significant and dense file, so that you can show that this is a pervasive problem that is really changing your work environment in a negative way. Of course, unless you are reporting on issues that are legally protected from retaliation, this doesn’t have any legal clout, but it the boss is sensible, he’ll recognize the significance of the issue.

    21. House of Cats*

      Your boss is a terrible boss, in many ways. He’s allowed your supervisor’s problematic behavior to continue unchecked for what sounds like a long time. Then, instead of doing what every boss everywhere does and just addressing it with her, he has employees report and document things for him. Then, he keeps meeting with her about it but doesn’t actually do anything, like, say – fire her. It sounds like he’s been meeting with her based on your feedback for several months, plenty of time for the “I need to see xyz changes or you can’t continue to work here.” conversation. Then, he’s handling your problem terribly as well. Your boss is a no good, very bad manager. I would start looking for s new job.

  2. Social Committee*

    What does your company do (if anything) to mark employees’ anniversaries of employment? What about peoples’ birthdays?

    1. Banana in Pajamas*

      Every 5 years, my company allows employees to choose a gift from an online store – this involves things like luggage, camping gear, watches, apparel, etc.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, some stuff in ours are random weird things. There was a deli slicer included in my last offering.

      2. Menacia*

        Yes, our company used to do something similar, but really all the choices were lame so now they give gift cards…yay! Just have to wait two more years for mine.

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I got a bread machine from my husband’s company catalog. He wanted a fly rod, but was dubious as to the quality of selection in the catalog, so he let me pick something, instead.

        My company doesn’t do gifts; we just get a years-of-service monetary bonus.

      4. Specialk9*

        My old company did this. I got a fancy espresso machine. My current company doesn’t, and the best gift at this point is not being laid off. :D

      5. Jersey's mom*

        How timely. Today is my birthday and I brought a treat to work, which is what those employees who want to acknowledge their b-days typically do. No pressure by co-workers to do so.

        1. Easter*

          Same. Generally for my office birthdays, the person celebrating will bring in treats for themselves and co-workers. No pressure, but it happens enough that it’s sort of an unofficial tradition. If some folks are friends with one another outside of work there might be cards or small gifts, but nothing “official” from the office.

          As far as I know, we don’t do anything for work anniversaries.

      6. Meghan*

        I got a backpack for my 5-year at my old company. And I filled out the form and got the backpack sent to me even though I was actually leaving about 1 month before my 5-year anniversary date. I still use that backpack.

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      I THINK there is some kind of celebration if one’s been there 10+ years but it’s very haphazard. We don’t officially celebrate birthdays, but there are actually sanctioned celebrations for people like the executive assistant who had worked at the firm for ages and turned 60 and things like that. I’ve also been to some smaller team celebrations for partners having a major birthday. There are actually guidelines for what the firm can/should give as gifts on those occasions so I suppose it most happen more than I know of.

    3. Rincat*

      My university emails a list every year with employee service milestones, starting at 15 years I think. I think they might do a dinner or something for people who have hit the really high milestones, like 30+. They also give plaques…I’ve seen some in a few people’s offices! Beyond that, I don’t know if any of the departments do anything individually.

      For birthdays, there’s no university-wide or even department-wide thing. Most places I know around here don’t do anything for birthdays, but I figure some depts will celebrate them for their employees. I was actually quite touched with how my current manager handles it…he got my team and a few other people I work closely with to sign a card, and gave me that with a bag of candy I like. It was simple and thoughtful. :)

      1. Justme*

        We have a yearly dinner for employees who have reached 10 years of service, as well as those who have received various employee awards. I was invited to this year’s (for an employee award) but was not able to go.

    4. prg.*

      The company gives a 4 week paid sabbatical every 5 years.
      Birthdays in my dept are sometimes celebrated with cupcakes or a mid-afternoon champagne, assuming someone remembers to order them.

        1. prg.*

          I googled that to see what company you were talking about. Nope! We’re more about sending and receiving money, making online payments, and democratizing financial services. :)

    5. Fabulous*

      Our office manager sends out a monthly calendar with birthdays and work anniversaries on it. Also, she usually does a treat once a month, or every other month, for the birthdays that month.

      Although now that I think about it, she hasn’t done one for a while… but we do get bagel Fridays now! Priorities, I guess :)

    6. TeacherNerd*

      My school (public high school) doesn’t do anything, but then again, I wouldn’t expect (or want) them to. However, my husband has worked for the same airline for 17 years, and every year his work anniversary is acknowledged by his boss (at the bare minimum, a card of thanks), posted on the company intranet (“here’s who has a work anniversary this month), and every five-year milestone, employees get to choose something from an online shop. On his birthday, he gets a birthday card. It’s a rather large company, though, so I think that’s what can be reasonably expected. :-)

    7. Snickerdoodle*

      For employment anniversaries, my employer gives us gift cards. Birthdays, the company doesn’t do anything, but I personally bake something at the beginning of the month.

    8. Sole*

      Anniversaries of employment are acknowledged at 5 year intervals, and employees are gifted with a paid day off for every 5 years worked and a plaque. Birthdays are celebrated agency wide with a card signed by senior mgmt.

    9. Sadsack*

      Nothing for birthdays. For anniversaries of years 5, 10, and so on, we can pick a gift from a catalog. Value of gifts offered depends on years of service. The offerings in general are kind of crappy though. It seems like a warehouse full of stuff that couldn’t be sold elsewhere. We also get a cake to share with our department. Those are usually good! And a certificate to hang in the office.

    10. Anon-J*

      We have a monthly luncheon where we recognize birthdays/work anniversaries/upcoming births happening that month. Usually the company pays for everything and cards are passed around to be signed. Sometimes we mix it up and go more pot luck style (voluntary participation). For instance over the summer, we had a potato salad challenge. The company bought sandwiches and desserts and folks brought in potato salads. Using ranked choice voting we declared a winner who got a silly crown. This month we’re doing a pumpkin themed cook off :)

    11. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Anniversaries are mentioned in our twice-yearly all employee meetings for increments of 5, otherwise nothing is done. For birthdays, the department I’m in orders lunch where we all pay for ourselves plus pitch in a dollar to cover the birthday person. Birthdays are also printed in the company newsletter. Not sure why they don’t print the work anniversaries in there when that seems more appropriate to recognize than the birthdays.

    12. Ellen*

      My company recognizes anniversaries that are multiples of five (5, 10, 15, etc.) in a company newsletter. There are also gifts you receive at certain levels, like gift certificates to a local restaurant. I think the first one of those is at 10 years. (Plus, your vacation time increases, but that’s not because of the anniversary per se.)

      Someone will occasionally buy cupcakes to share on someone’s birthday, but that’s not a regular thing.

    13. Mike C.*

      We get gifts and pins at 5 year increments. At the larger years, folks are taken out to dinner, that sort of thing.

      At the 50 year mark, you get your own parking spot right up front – this is a big deal given the size of this place. And yes, we have a few folks that have hit this.

    14. Marillenbaum*

      I’m grad school now, but at my old office (still in higher ed) the university would acknowledge anniversaries for every five years of employment through a newsletter and, at certain levels, the ability to select a gift through a catalogue (once you got to ten years, I think). For our smaller office, we would do birthdays; usually, the person in question would bring in a baked good of their choice, and other people would show up with some beers or wine and we’d all gather about half an hour before closing to snack a little. It was pretty informal and really rather nice.

    16. Theme Park Employee*

      My company (I work for a large Co that operates Theme Parks) will give us a different pin to wear on our nametags for our 1 year anniversary, then 5, 10, 15, etc.

      For folks who have 10+ years, there is an annual “Service Anniversary Celebration” party for those with a milestone (10, 15, 20, 25, etc.) anniversary in that year. They have catered food, open bar, entertainment, and it’s often held in one of our parks, so there are rides with minimal lines. Folks with 20+ years can also get into a separate section that has more food option (lobster tail and steak included).

      For Hourly employees, at the 3 year mark, your merchandise discount increases, and at 15 years, you get more guest passes to give to your friends/family.

      Lastly, for all employees, vacation accrual is based on years of service – 1-9 years = X weeks, 10-19 years = X+1 weeks, 20+ years = X+2 weeks

    17. fposte*

      I don’t really understand the anniversaries at my university–they’re really inconsistently observed, and mostly it’s just an email to all announcing it when it happens. I think it’s noted more often for civil service staff.

      Birthdays you get a poster on your door or cubicle. In my unit, I bring cake, because cake.

    18. KR*

      My co-workers got me a balloon and a Starbucks drink and a little cupcake which was really nice as it was within the first couple of weeks of me starting. I think my manager usually takes people out to eat at some point close to their birthdays too.

    19. A.N.O.N.*

      What an appropriately-timed question – my deptartment just had a celebration for my birthday earlier today!

      They brought in some pastries, muffins, coffee, etc. and we chatted in my coworker’s office for about an hour. It was nice, while still being low-key.

    20. Master Bean Counter*

      Cake. We live and die on cake here.
      Work anniversaries get cake provided by the company. For birthdays the upper management takes turns buying the cake.

    21. k8*

      we get a company baseball jacket at our 1-year anniversary. For birthdays, we get together and have drinks and either cupcakes or a nice fruit tray (depends on the birthday person’s diet). we’re only around 20 people, so it’ not hard to get everyone together.

    22. Susan K*

      Anniversaries of multiples of 5 years are recognized with a certificate (just a piece of paper with name and years of service, signed by a director). Also, our ID badges expire every 5 years, so we have to get a new one every 5 years or we are locked out of the facility.

      The company doesn’t do anything for birthdays. At one point last year, my department head decided to have a monthly birthday celebration, in which anyone with a birthday in that month would get a card signed by everyone in the department, and there would be one cake for all the birthdays that month. This lasted exactly one month and then the department head forgot about it.

      I have a friend who said that where he works, the branch VP personally goes to the desk of each employee on the employee’s birthday, shakes their hand and says happy birthday, and gives them a candy bar. It’s not much but it seems like a nice gesture to treat the employees like human beings.

      1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        “I have a friend who said that where he works, the branch VP personally goes to the desk of each employee on the employee’s birthday, shakes their hand and says happy birthday, and gives them a candy bar. It’s not much but it seems like a nice gesture to treat the employees like human beings.”

        that actually sounds nice!

    23. SophieChotek*

      Nothing. Sometimes I get an email from my direct boss that says “Happy Birthday” but no cards or gifts or anything like that. I work remotely so I am sure that is some of it.

      The coffee shop where I pick up the odd extra shift used to give pins to mark the anniversary, but no longer. Now I don’t think they do anything either.

    24. it_guy*

      I’m in a larger international organization. We have a formal recognition system that we use to recognize employee anniversaries as well as giving ‘atta-girls’, which adds to a recognition awards system where we can buy merchandise. The local office has a ‘birthday day’ and provides bagels, or ice cream for everyone and lists the day of the birthday (not the year)

    25. Jadelyn*

      We formally recognize every 5 year anniversaries with glass awards with the employee’s name on it, presented by their manager during the quarterly all-staff meeting with a brief (like, 90 seconds) speech recognizing the employee’s history with the organization. Starting this year, we’re adding a monetary bonus, something like $50 per year of tenure, so $250 for 5 years, $500 for 10 years, etc.

      For birthdays, that’s on a team level mostly. Most teams decorate the person’s office/cubicle/workstation and take the person to lunch or have a potluck at the office. The company also sponsors a monthly birthdays lunch and cake for everyone who’s had a birthday that month.

    26. Iris Eyes*

      For 5 year increment anniversaries you get a company pin and letter from your manager. Pins are different for each increment. Cake is usually involved. All anniversaries and birthdays are displayed on the intranet site, its really cool to see how many people everyday have been with the company 10+ years.

      For birthdays, the office I’m in has an end of the month celebration of all birthdays represented. This includes cake and lunch.

      TBH the cake is pretty sub-par most of the time, I mean its ok but just not all that great, at least it is always half vanilla half chocolate because #diversity lol

    27. LucyUK*

      My company gives you a six week sabbatical after every five years of service, and a fairly. generous gift if you stay for ten years (they try to get something the person actually wants; people have had things like musical instruments or music lessons and gaming consoles in the past). Recognition of birthdays or other work anniversaries is generally down to individual managers, though – some send cards or give small gifts, others don’t.

    28. Fiennes*

      My last office did a monthly “celebrations” gathering at month-end, which honored birthdays as well as various other good news–engagements, adoptions, etc. The office paid for a cake or cupcakes and some sodas. Attendance was non-mandatory, so if you were behind you didn’t feel pressured to go, but most came because it was low-key. It also seemed appreciated by those who didn’t want a big fuss–since their celebration was folded in with many others, they didn’t have to stand in the spotlight.

      We also got stock, award-looking paperweights for five years. At ten I think you got to pick out either a watch or clock but thank god I wasn’t there long enough to know for sure.

    29. Elizabeth West*

      OldExJob used to do birthday and anniversary cards and have everyone sign them and then give them out. I was tasked with sending out an email also. I had fun picking pictures of cakes for each person’s email. One person didn’t want their birthday acknowledged in the office, so I would just whisper “Happy birthday,” to him privately and he would whisper back, “Thank you.”

      I had to do my own! So I would always pick the card I liked best to send on the round robin and usually a Batman cake pic or something of that nature, and the email would say, “HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME!!” LOL

    30. Fenchurch*

      1st year (I missed the window when they started doing this) – keychain I believe?
      3rd year – umbrella and emergency blanket
      5th year (and every 5 years after that) – gift from the latest curated list & a unique anniversary web page where coworkers are invited to contribute happy words and memories.

    31. Hush42*

      A company wide e-mail goes out for Birthdays and Work Anniversaries. Other then that nothing special really happens. One of my co-workers 15th anniversary was this past May so I convinced our manager to do a team lunch to celebrate. I’m actually the manager now so I’ll probably try to do a celebratory lunch for anniversaries in multiples of 5 for my team.

    32. Audiophile*

      My company has a monthly all staff meeting where milestones such as anniversarys and promotions are announced, along with birthdays.

    33. Specialk9*

      Follow-up sub question about birthdays and such: are there non birthday celebrations Jehovah’s Witnesses are ok with, to show appreciation for having them on the team without violating their religious rules?

      I used to acknowledge birthdays on my team but didn’t know about the JW restriction for one teammate, so messed up the first year, apologized, and didn’t do it again. It felt like she alone didn’t get the ‘thanks we value you’ message, which really is why one acknowledges birthdays at work.

      Anyone know if, say, a cupcake on a random day with ‘we appreciate all your work, glad you’re on the team’ would be allowed / not uncomfortable for Jehovah’s Witnesses?

      1. Actual JW*

        Hi, Specialk9! Thanks for asking. You might ask each of your Witness employees what they’re comfortable with, but I think most of us would be fine with a cupcake or a card as a gesture of appreciation on a random date. There are no Bible principles that would prohibit that; in fact, the Bible encourages us to express appreciation and give heartfelt commendation where appropriate. Just make sure the random date is not too close to Christmas or their birthdays.

    34. Turtle Candle*

      Five-year milestones are recognized once a year, with everyone who has a five-year milestone that year recognized at once. (So like, Jane and Tim have been there 5 years, Sam has been there 10 years, and Sarah has been there 25 years–all four of them are recognized at the same time. I like this because it seems to make people feel less spotlighted/singled out.) There’s cake and a fruit plate and everyone gets a 15-minute break.

      I think there’s also a bonus, but I’m not positive on that.

    35. Amber T*

      Nothing. It’s in our company policy that after 10 years employment you get five more vacation days, but that’s it.

    36. JN*

      Every 5 years, employees get something. I just hit my 5 year mark earlier this year and ended up getting an engraved writing pen. Not sure what all the other gifts are, but I think the 25 year one might be a big clock.

      My office/department used to be big on celebrating birthdays. We’d get together for a half hour and have a treat that the birthday person liked and that was provided by the person who’d most recently had a birthday before this one. Then today’s birthday person would bring treats for the next birthday celebration, and so on in rotation. But we haven’t done any birthdays this year, now that I think about it. Kinda started downtrending a few years ago when our main social organizer retired. Someone else officially took that on, but they’re working on a doctorate and several other big projects so are tight on time and may be letting birthdays slide.

    38. Sled dog mama*

      Previous company sent a birthday card and $5 gift card for birthdays and an annual appreciation gift, last year was a set of travel phone accessories plus they have an employee appreciation week with a bunch of drawings for other prizes like larger gift cards, ipad and additional PTO.
      Current employer does a monthly birthday cake from the c-suite (drop by between these hours get a piece of cake and the CEO wishes you happy birthday), pins for 1,5,10,etc years of service (a gift as well at 5, 10,etc) and an annual employee appreciation gift (usually a grocery gift card). We’ve heard from management that that in the next six months they are going to roll the anniversary gifts and annual employee appreciation into a points system so you choose your own gift each year or you can save multiple years up and get a bigger gift but that the points each year would be enough to still get the grocery card each year lf you wanted.

    39. crookedfinger*

      We have a birthday/anniversary party every quarter to celebrate any that happened during that quarter. Usually some kind of sweet treat. I think people with serious anniversaries (like 10, 20 years) get an engraved glass plaque, but that’s about it.

    40. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      On each 5 year mark we have a choice between a Visa gift card (each major anniversary the amount goes up) or a commemorative university lapel pin. I don’t think anybody has ever chosen the pin. My last anniversary I got $150 and I bought a nice pair of shoes.

      Birthdays are handled (or not) at the department level so there isn’t any standard. My department usually just sends a card around for everyone to sign.

    41. Ms. Mad Scientist*

      No years of service award from the company,but I got some nice gifts from my boss for my 5 year anniversary.

    42. Turquoisecow*

      My current company (which I’m leaving shortly) gives a certificate for your anniversary (I think only at 5 year intervals? But I’m not sure). I don’t think there’s any additional compensation, but I could be wrong.

      Individual departments celebrate birthdays or don’t – a department near me that I’m not part of goes all out with balloons and a cake for basically everyone, but my department does not. I got an email from our sole HR person, so I imagine she does that for everyone.

      My old job, my department had a pizza or potluck party once a month to celebrate the birthdays of everyone who had one that month. It wasn’t mandatory – we’d just get together in the afternoon. It started out as pizza for lunch and then morphed into potluck desert later in the day – three people would be randomly chosen to bring something in, and people would sometimes bake but more often grab a box of cookies or donuts. We also would play a trivia type game, which most people enjoyed because it gave us a chance to socialize with people in our department we didn’t know well, and an hour off from work. Again, it was all optional and some people would grab a cookie and go back to work if they were swamped.

      They didn’t do any compensation for anniversaries though.

    43. UK Civil Servant*

      For government departments it would be misuse of public money, so nothing.
      Department *is* currently considering certificates for long service (5, 10, 20 etc).
      On our birthdays we get to supply cakes to our team-mates.

    44. Turkletina*

      We don’t do anything special for birthdays. Employment anniversaries (multiples of 5) are mentioned and applauded at a monthly divisional meeting, but as far as I know no awards are given.

    45. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      At OldJob, every 5 years, you picked out a gift from the Company catalog. the longer you’ve been there, the better the gift selection. LOL. And the manager would take you and your group to lunch. For Birthdays, we’d take the guest of honor to lunch and then later in the afternoon, we’d have cake.

    46. justsomeone*

      My company recognizes anniversaries at 5 year intervals. You get a bonus that goes up by $500 for every 5 years and a glass award that is different for each tier. You’re also recognized in the monthly newsletter. 5 and 10 year people get a photo, 15+ year people get a nice little writeup.

      Birthdays are handled by your department. Mine does a card and giftcard and a team snack that you get to pick. Lately we’ve been doing bagels and fruit.

      1. Emily*

        Man, as someone who just passed my 5-year anniversary and also recently had to unexpectedly remodel an entire bathroom in my basement because of damage caused by the person who was living there, I could really use $500 right now.

    47. Smiling*

      Absolutely nothing.

      As a manager, I make an effort to remember anniversaries of staff who have been here 5 years or more. For birthdays, we generally celebrate everyone who falls within a given month with one cake.

    48. Koko*

      Anniversaries – maybe a nice note/email/chat from your direct supervisor congratulating you on one year. Unlikely that there will be any recognition for years 2, 3, and 4. At 5-year milestones, in my department we will typically dedicate that week’s standing happy hour to celebrating the team member’s milestone, and maybe bring something festive like champagne or cake instead of wine and crackers that week.

      Birthdays – when we had a much smaller team we did team lunches at a local restaurant every couple of months in honor of everyone with a birthday +/- one month, and people would just sort of self-identify if their birthday fell in that range if they wanted to…didn’t really matter because we all got free lunch whether it was our birthday or not. Now that we’re a bigger department we don’t really too anything. Too hard to organize for two dozen+ people, and half the people don’t care about or actively dislike having their birthday recognized anyway.

    49. NB*

      For 5, 10, 15 (etc.) anniversaries, our organization does the following:
      (1) At the annual holiday party, the person’s manager says a lot of nice things about the employee.
      (2) The employee gets a certificate of appreciation.
      (3) The employee gets a monetary bonus.

      For birthdays, we have a monthly list in the staff break room that reads “Happy Birthday, October [or whatever month] Birthdays!” It doesn’t include the actual birthday, and participation is voluntary. Admin asks before including us on the list.

    50. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I work for a small company. They do nothing for anniversaries of employment. They may do something if it’s a big anniversary (10 years, 20 years, etc.), but I have not been around for that. For birthdays, everyone in the office signs a card, and we order lunch that month to celebrate that month’s birthdays. The birthday people get to pick where we order from.

    51. OhNo*

      My department at the university doesn’t do anything for length-of-service (at least not that I’ve heard of, though to be fair there haven’t been any big service anniversaries since I’ve worked here).

      We do sweets for everyone’s birthday, though. There’s only five of us, so usually either my boss or most senior coworker will pick up cupcakes, fancy doughnuts, or cake on their way to work.

    52. On Fire*

      For the first 10 years – nothing. But from the 10-year anniversary on, we get a $500 bonus on our career anniversary.

      Birthdays – I’m in a small office that’s part of a larger organization. In our small office, we usually do a breakfast potluck – breakfast because it’s simpler: muffins, fruit, juice, bacon, etc.

    53. TheCupcakeCounter*

      We get a company branded item every year. Insulated cups, mini-coolers, dop kit/travel bag, etc…

    54. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      My company does annual “employee appreciation” gifts, which are ALWAYS company branded T shirts, hats, etc. No, employer, I don’t feel appreciated by an ill fitting cheap T shirt plugging your latest ad campaign.
      For birthdays, a free lunch in the cafeteria. Which would be *useful* if my working hours coincided with the cafeteria hours, but most years goes unused because I work evenings/nights when it’s closed.
      For every 5 years, you get to order from the same catalog of “stuff that hasn’t sold elsewhere” as someone described it above (an apt description for sure!)…For my 10 year, there was literally NOTHING I wanted, so I didn’t bother to order anything. This year is my 15th and my husband picked out something for himself from the catalog because once again there wasn’t a darn thing there I could use or enjoy.

    55. Piano Girl*

      At my former job, five-year increment anniversaries were celebrated at the annual Christmas/Holiday party. Your supervisor would get up and talk about you for a few minutes. Each five-year increment would earn you a specific gift (trophy, clock, etc). I was laid off the first time after about a year (I was hired back within the month) but I had to wait five years from my new hire date for acknowledgement. :(. Interestingly enough, a long-time employee is being laid off, but has been given a long notice time so he can hit his 25-year anniversary.

    56. Nacho*

      We get a little pin on our lanyard, and everyone on the team signs a card that nobody actually cares about. Plus we post something on our company’s internal facebook.

    57. Kiwi*

      Great question! My company gives you an extra day of leave to take the week of your birthday. A lot of people use it to get a 3-day weekend. It’s a great policy.

      For 5, 10, 15 year etc anniversaries, we get a certificate handed out at an all-staff meeting, a gift voucher ($10 per year), and an increase in annual leave. It’s pretty good.

    58. Middle School Teacher*

      We had pie today to celebrate the August and September birthdays! Usually it’s nothibg, so that was nice.

      We get service awards (usually a gift card) for every five years worked. The value rises with each step. Five years =$100, ten =$250, etc. I believe thirty years of service earns a $5000 gc of your choice but I’m not sure. We haven’t been around for thirty years so no one has made it to that level.

    59. Workaholic*

      Bdays: my team has an opt-in bday list. Bday person 1 buys a card for everyone to sign and brings in some kind of goodie (cake n donuts, cookies, or something appealing to bday person 2). Then bday2 does for bday3.

      Last month i donated a bunch of genetic bday cards in case somebody forgets.

      Work anniversaries: pretty much our boss said “congratulations! It’s workaholic’s 4 year anniversary!” In or morning meeting, everybody smiles, maybe congratulates, then move on.

    60. Optimistic Prime*

      My company gives a pretty distinctive gift to employees to mark their 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25-year anniversaries. (You can choose a cash bonus instead, but the gift is so nice most people choose it.)

      Also, most teams do anniversary recognition on your first anniversary and then on the 5s after that at our all hands meetings (which we have quarterly for our divisions – they are usually anywhere from 100 to 400+ people). Usually there’s a PowerPoint presentation and they put your names on it for everyone to clap. We’ve got one general manager who uses a really cute way to recognize all his anniversaries in addition to this (it involves audience participation).

      My manager gave me a really nice card and a slice of cake on my first anniversary, and she remembered my second anniversary as well which surprised me.

    61. samgarden*

      I work for a big mining / resources engineering company. For our five year work anniversaries we get a card signed by the general manager. For ten years we get taken to lunch with our team.
      Birthdays are ignored unless the birthday person wants to bring in cake or whatever. It gets put in the relevant kitchen and admin send an email saying there’s cake.
      That’s it, really.

    62. Testy McTesterson*

      Birthday is a card with two movie vouchers that gets posted to you.

      1 year is a pen, and then 5, 10 etc years are a plaque and a gift card, starting at $500 for 5 years.

    63. Kathleen Adams*

      Ours (I work for a non-profit with a pretty long history) is very orchestrated. The 5-year is somewhat flexible in that everybody gets something, but what it is varies considerably. At my 5-year, which was long ago now, I picked from a catalog, but they don’t do that with everybody.
      But many of the other milestone markers are very established: 10 years, a watch; 15 years, a gold lapel pin decorated with a little ruby (it’s quite attractive, really); 20 years, a gold and diamond ring (yes, real gold and diamonds); and 25 years, a gold-and-diamond lapel pin. I don’t think there is an established tradition for 30 and 30+ years (I think there’s a present and some money), but I could be wrong.

      1. Newbie*

        My current company doesn’t do much in the way of celebration for birthday’s or anniversaries. When I first started here I would check the employee directory regularly to recognize employee work anniversaries by writing a little card of congratulations. However, the process felt really forced and I got the sense that it made employees more uncomfortable than not. I’ve taken on a few additional tasks recently and have forgotten to do this in turn and nobody has mentioned it, so I’m just going to let it be. In my past job managers would recognize yearly milestones with a card and then the company would offer a bonus for larger anniversaries (10+ years). I think I personally prefer this process since it’s a lot for just one person to stay on top of for the entire company.

    64. Janonymous*

      We don’t typically acknowledge it in the actual office, but we get an annual raise on the anniversary of our start date, and personal days reset for the year.

      Birthdays are usually celebrated by passing around a card and someone bringing in cake or other treat, and maybe getting a drink after work, depending on how busy we are.

    65. Quickbeam*

      I now work for a large privately held insurance company, over 100 years old. I am an RN. They really value longevity. For my 5th anniversary I was sent a box of artisan candy, a certificate of appreciation, got a raise and a gift of my choice (I chose a gold necklace). They also publish all work anniversaries in the company newsletter.

    66. De Minimis*

      My current employer [nonprofit sector] does nothing for career anniversaries that I’m aware of. We have several people who have been here 10+ years [and at least a few senior/director level staff that were hired here as new grads, so they’ve never really worked anywhere else] so I guess no one minds. For birthdays we’re given coffee/sweets at the monthly staff meeting each month, designated in celebration of any birthdays.

      Last employer [federal agency] gave a nice plaque at 10 years, I’m not sure if they did anything for 5. I think people just kept getting plaques at 5 year intervals after the 10 year mark. I didn’t make it quite that long.
      My department had a special group potluck in any month when someone had a birthday [I think the birthday celebrant didn’t have to bring anything.] We were a fairly small department, so we didn’t have celebrations every month.

      Job before that [quasi-federal agency] I got a letter of recognition at the 5 year mark. It was an actual letter I received in the mail, and a copy went into my file. No kind of recognition at the actual workplace, though. We only did things when people retired/quit. We didn’t celebrate birthdays either.

      I’m in favor of the single monthly birthday observance, any more than that tends to take too much time from work, especially if workplaces do the potluck route.

  3. Green Buttons*

    My coworker’s subtle bad attitude is driving me crazy. Joe is a Senior Teapot Designer and I’m a Junior Teapot Designer (similar job descriptions), though I’ve been in my role for longer. Though he’s good at designing teapot patterns (something he clearly enjoys), he acts begrudgingly (as if he was doing you a favor) when asked to assemble teapots. For more complex assemblies, I overhear him telling people he doesn’t know how to put handles on. So, tasks like that often go to me. While I have some handle assembly experience, I’m more inclined to go find resources to get the job done if I run into issues.

    I’ve addressed this with our manager, who I assume has talked to Joe about his performance issues. We used to be pretty friendly, but now, I haven’t spoken to him much because he complains that he’s way too busy assembling teapots, and brushes off questions about teapot assembly. Or he’ll grumble about how he’d rather do teapot design and how he’s underpaid for doing teapot assembly, even though it’s part of both our job descriptions.

    I’d be happy with a simple “I’ll try to find out how to attach the phalange”, but he flat out says he doesn’t know and it’s end of discussion. Am I right to be annoyed by this behavior? I feel like I’ve already tactfully brought up clear performance issues to our manager, but this is more of a tricky soft skill frustration that occasionally affects work.

    1. Purple Jello*

      Are you supposed to go to Joe with questions? if so, was that made clear by your manager? Otherwise, does it matter to your performance that Joe isn’t helpful? Can you clarify with your manager what exactly YOU are supposed to be doing? Does he know that Joe doesn’t want to do teapot assembly and frequently passes it off to you?

      I guess I’m asking if you’re just annoyed that you have to do assembly that Joe should know how to do but doesn’t want to; or maybe you really are supposed to be doing most of the assembly as the “Junior”?

      1. Green Buttons*

        We’re both supposed to do assembly. People from packaging are supposed to go to Joe when they have questions about the assembly process. But after unsatisfactory shrugs from him, people come to me and I do know the answers because I’ve been here longer. As the Senior, he’s supposed to own the assembly and design.

        1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          You need to go back to your manager and ask how you should proceed when Joe tells someone he can’t do the work they are requesting and they come you. Should you drop everything on your own project to do it? Every time. Should you ask them for clarification and then explain that Joe must have misunderstood, and this is something he does know how to do…and then walk away?
          Which I would love to do.

          1. Artemesia*

            The real question is why you aren’t being paid as a senior teapot designer if you have been there longer and know more about it? I would ask about promotion to Senior since you are functioning as a senior teapot person and the go to person on problems related to this role.

            1. Jules the Third*

              Yeah – this is an opportunity for you. Document (I assembled x teapots; answered questions about y areas, like handles and phalanges; etc) and ask for a promotion based on work you already do.

            2. Close Bracket*

              Yup, this was my thought. Document all the senior level work you are doing and leverage it for a promotion.

  4. Jimbo*

    My question deals with being a graphic or other type of designer and how to communicate better with clients and colleagues.

    My wife works as a graphic designer. English is a second language for her. She speaks and reads English pretty well but sometimes gets lost in the nuances and cultural references that are second nature to fluent, lifelong native speakers.

    In her job, she often has to explain and/or defend her ideas and decisions to critical and nitpicky people up and down the org chart. Some folks are easier to deal with than others but she often has difficulty with strong personalities and headstrong folks who love to debate and argue. In dealing with these people and in group meetings or decision-making to get consensus, she often finds herself giving in and getting rolled over by headstrong and opinionated personalities and unable to effectively defend her ideas or get her perspective across especially if she disagrees with them.

    This has resulted in her losing self-esteem and feeling as if she is not respected by her colleagues. Engaging effectively with in-house or external clients, of course, is a must for graphic or other type of designers. I imagine that until she deals effectively with this issue, that she will continue to experience dissatisfaction and not feel respected no matter what job she has.

    I’ve urged her in the past to take English language classes or even try public speaking clubs like Toastmasters. I have a feeling that is not what she needs. But I am stumped as far as what resources graphic and other designers can tap into to improve their communication skills in having effective conversations and interactions with clients and colleagues.

    NOTE: My wife and I are raising a young child. That means funds, time and opportunity for quiet reflection and alone time are in short supply. But we do live in the Washington DC Metro area so I imagine there might be plenty of resources we might have access to and don’t even know about. We just need to be pointed to the right direction.

    One idea I have is perhaps she can get a mentor relationship with a more senior designer who is very strong in the area she would like to improve upon. Perhaps a designer who also has a background with English as a second language? But how do designers find mentors, especially specific types of mentors?

    We’d love your suggestions!

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      This is a common problem for many designers, not just your wife. Usually teams have a project manager who is in charge of convincing clients of the benefits of the design, or conversely, convincing designers to change their design based on client feedback. Ideally, designers shouldn’t have to interact with clients at all. I find that designers, developers, and sometimes writers tend to put their whole selves into their work (possibly because it’s creative) and seeing or hearing client feedback right at the moment when they’re revealing a final draft of something they’re really proud and excited about can be hard. Project managers have the communication skill to find a happy medium between the two parties, and also speed the project along and field client communications and questions about timeline.

      Can your wife ask/pitch the idea of hiring an entry level project manager or client lead/liaison?

      1. Jimbo*

        She works as an in-house designer for a Communications department of an organization. I don’t think the org has a budget to hire anyone new. For projects that involve communication with other departments in the organization or outside organizations, there may be a project manager that serves as a buffer between creative staff and the clients. But in internal departmental meetings and dealing with her immediate colleagues, there is no buffer or someone who can serve as a buffer.

        1. Marcy Marketer*

          I have only ever worked for internal comms departments. Here are two things I’ve seen I’ve seen work for the designers on my teams:
          — Talk to the boss and ask if it’s possible to reduce the number of people giving feedback on designs. Just like how presumably she doesn’t read writers’ work and give them feedback, why are writers giving her feedback? Explain that having to defend design principles to non-experts is affecting the quality of work produced.
          — as a result of the above conversation, the boss might become the only person wth approval and feedback power, with client feedback filtered through and approved from boss. This also takes the onus off your wife to mediate and interpret conflicting feedback.

          1. Triplestep*

            … reduce the number of people giving feedback on designs.

            Yes! This, all day long! As the lone designer in my group, I can’t tell you how exhausting it is having to take feedback from everyone and their uncle, most of whom would never solicit anyone’s feedback on their own work.

          2. Tuesday Next*

            “having to defend design principles to non-experts is affecting the quality of work produced” – I don’t agree with this. I have to defend (or rather, explain) my design decisions to business stakeholders, developers and other designers. In my experience, a designer who isn’t prepared/able to do that comes across as a prima donna or lacks credibility.

            1. Tuesday Next*

              To be clear, that doesn’t mean making changes based on the uninformed views of whoever ventures an opinion. As a designer you also need to be able to stand your ground if you feel your decisions are sound and you can back them up.

              1. Triplestep*

                Yes, one needs to be able to explain the design to higher-ups and stakeholders who are not designers. But in my last job I had non-designer *peers* who needed to provide feedback in the name of “collaboration”. They thought their input needed to be acted on every time. It was exhausting!

                Marcy Marketer’s example of how a designer wouldn’t be weighing in on a writer’s work is a good illustration of exactly this.

        2. laevian*

          The idea of a mentor is good, but if she can’t find one I’d suggest that in the meantime she start to keep a record of the design decisions that she makes, why she made them, and try to memorize those and use them as talking points when she’s presenting her work. But she should also keep in mind that the questions people are asking aren’t always criticisms- the people she’s presenting to are trying to understand her work and make it better. There is a delicate balance between knowing when you absolutely must push back on an idea and when you could afford to compromise, and as she accumulates experience I’m sure she’ll start to get a feel for walking the line.

          One phrase that’s incredibly helpful and should be in any designer’s toolkit- “Let me do some research on the subject, and I’ll get back to you.” If she’s getting pushed by someone to make serious changes that go against her gut but she can’t articulate why in the moment, this is a good way to give her some extra time to think and reason out the problem that is being addressed.

          1. Jimbo*

            Excellent advice! Thank you laevian and Marcy Marketer! I think in the fast-paced give and take in meetings to try and arrive at a consensus on group decision-making, that is her Acchiles heel. The advice you gave allows for tactics that can give her time and space for self-reflection and to get her thoughts together before she responds or reacts to a critical comment or colleague

      2. Emily*

        Agree with this! I’m in a role that involves a lot of project management and I have always considered it one of my obligations to shield my developers and designers from having to directly interact with (often temperamental) external vendors.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      My suggestion (as a desktop publisher and graphic designer) is to read Clients from Hell. You and your wife will discover that the creative part of business is: 1) greatly undervalued, as in, you are just pushing some buttons; 2) greatly misunderstood, as in, if I had Photoshop, I could do that too; 3) everyone knows what they like, but they don’t know how to say it, as in, “can you jazz it up? can you calm it down? can you make it more/less professional.

      Once she realizes she is not alone, it will be a lot easier!

      1. MissDissplaced*

        Oh Karma, this is so true!
        The marketing people think themselves so smart but couldn’t draw their way out of a paper bag if given a crayon.

        1. Marcy Marketer*

          I’m glad! Yes, I remember those group meetings well, where a meeting about an event would have the desiner’s work examined with “helpful” suggestions until you could see her get visibly flustered. We weren’t doing it on purpose, just didn’t understand how it was affecting her. The designer spoke with the boss and the boss would redirect those conversations to “good idea, Designer and I will think about it.” Or “good idea! Let’s focus on X though; we’re not going to rework the design right now.”

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Is she freelance? Because this kind of thing is a huge reason we have account executives in advertising: many creative types, not just ones whose native language is not English, have trouble presenting and defending their work. So it helps to have someone else in the room whose responsibility it is to manage the client relationship, in part by supporting their creative team in meetings.

      If she’s working for herself, perhaps she’d be happier at an agency or other situation in which she never has to present by herself?

    4. Meh*

      Speaking as a video production person (similar problems as with graphic design plus I did a bit of graphic design when I was first starting out). I’d say that biting your tongue and needing to put out a “not so great” design/video that the client wants is often necessary. Sometimes the client/coworker knows something about the project that you don’t. Like I had to make purposefully boring videos because they were going to be put in a course for kids with autism who couldn’t handle the stimulation of a normal, “good” video.

      A good strategy I learned when figuring out designs with headstrong clients/coworkers is I listen in on what they want and make three mockups: one that is *exactly* what they asked for, one that *I* think is the best design, and another that is a happy medium between the two that takes elements from both. And inevitably … they pick the fist one that is *exactly* what they asked for. So while they don’t use my good designs/video suggestions, I know I made a best effort with the design and they decided to do things differently (and if anyone questions my design skills I can show them the *good* mockups and explain I did what the coworker/client asked for instead). It’s better than the other extreme when the client/coworker leaves everything up to me and gets upset that I didn’t read their mind and gave them what they *actually* wanted.

      She may have luck with finding a mentor if she thinks she needed, I’d recommend checking for similar professionals on places like Facebook Groups, Meetup Groups, Reddit, and other online forums. Also, AIGA (The American Institute of Graphic Arts) has peer-to-peer mentorships in some cities (it looks like DC does – https://dc.aiga.org/about-us/mentoring/). Good luck!

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        The 3 design options is usually what I do too — however they never choose one of the 3 thought out and purposefully composed designs. Instead, they pick elements of each and “assemble” their own frankendesign that is a mess.

        I’ve had some success with pushing back and advocating for my ideas but ultimately I work for the “clients” (I am also in-house). One time I got really frustrated with some changes because they loved the tag line but then totally missed the visual theme that played off from the tag line. Something similar to “Get a handle on your next teapot” catch phrase but then they wanted to remove all of the teapot handle photos and replace them with photos of cars. I pointed out the disconnect and they relented. In creative fields, you have to be able to defend your work…nicely.

    5. sb*

      Is there someone she can roleplay the conversations with beforehand? Even if they don’t know the material that well, she can tell them what sort of critique to make (and what sort of “strong personality” to display). If she’s one of several people at the same level, this can be an exchange — she can be the critique-er for them rehearsing their conversations with as well. It sounds cheesy, and it is, but it also is really useful.

    6. Cwaeth*

      If you are in the U.S., contact your local Literacy organization – they may be connected to the public library system. The Literacy organization will have an ESOL program and they can find a tutor to meet with her to help her improve her language skills and confidence. The program should be free and the tutor will be a trained volunteer.

    7. BF50*

      I don’t know that she needs specifically a designer to help her. She might actually be better off with someone in sales who can help her learn some sales techniques.

      Personally, I would look into getting coaching to help her with confidence as well as strategies for explaining and defending her work. Some therapists are great with that and might be covered by your health insurance, but you can also find a specific career coach to help her.

    8. Jimbo*

      Thanks everyone for the great feedback! I will forward these to her. I appreciate everyone who responded (and who may respond later) with advice and tips!

    9. cleo*

      what resources (can) graphic and other designer tap into to improve their communication skills in having effective conversations and interactions with clients and colleagues

      1 – professional associations / professional development
      I second the recommendation for AIGA, FaceBook and LinkedIn professional groups. If your wife’s company pays for professional development, she may be able to go to a design conference as well. AIGA has conferences, as does HOW magazine. Often they’ll include mentoring or portfolio review opportunities.

      2 – professional meet-up groups
      As a web designer, I’ve found some great mentors through local web design meet-ups. I prefer the meet-ups that meet regularly and have a presentation on a set topic with some time for networking (as opposed to the ones that are just networking / socializing).

      3 – critique groups
      This may not exactly work for your wife but I’m a studio artist as well as designer and I’ve participated in a few artist critique groups (usually run out of an arts organization or non-profit gallery). I’ve found that they’ve really helped me get more comfortable talking about my work and other people’s work and that has over to my work as a designer as well. It’s a relatively low stakes ways to practice talking about one’s work.

      And, FWIW, this is hard for most, if not all, designers. It sounds like your wife may have other factors that are making it even harder. One thing that’s helped me is to be aware of how my cultural programming interacts with this – I’m a white, midwestern woman and I was socialized to be NICE and AGREEABLE and I’ve had to redefine both of those qualities to allow me to do my job as a designer and be a good advocate of my work and for my clients.

    10. Nerfmobile*

      I recommend a book, “Articulating Design Decisions” by Tom Greever, published by O’Reilly Media. Very useful discussion of preparing and presenting designs, listening and responding to feedback, and following through on revisions.

    11. Triplestep*

      I’m late to respond, but hopefully you’re still reading; I saw this yesterday but didn’t have a chance to respond. (Site is blocked at work, and had too much to say for phone typing!)

      I work in the building trades, so a different field of design than your wife, but I do feel that her command of English is not the major problem here. The problem stems from the fact that everyone thinks they are a designer. It didn’t used to be this way, but now that anyone with an internet connection can create their own graphics, websites and print campaigns – and anyone with a cable connection can watch HGTV – design is not valued the way that it used to be. In my previous workplace where I designed mainly labs and offices, some of the scientists seemed to feel that they could do my “fake job” if they weren’t so busy doing their important “real job.” When it comes to executives, I have found the higher up a person is in the organization, the more they want to “have input into the design”; this may manifest itself with vague or useless comments that seem like changes for the sake of making changes just so they can leave their mark.

      English is my first language, and I am a pretty confident speaker, but I have learned to keep as quiet when first getting feedback from internal clients and/or higher ups about designs. I need to take things into consideration that will not be immediately apparent to most lay-people. (Building code, ADA, egress, space constraints, budget, etc). Typically my managers want to hear about these things when I’m presenting to them, but for anyone else, I mainly say things like “Good idea; I will try that out!”. And then I will try their ideas if I think they will work within the constants I have. Or if their ideas won’t work, I’ll just make minor tweaks and re-present. You wouldn’t believe how often this works, and the client or exec is happy because they “had input.”

      The point is I never explain to people why their ideas won’t work at the time the ideas are offered. I used to – back when I thought that reasonable people would want to have a conversation about such things, but they really do not. Then I learned that trying to have these conversations got me labeled as “defensive” and “not open to others’ ideas”. (No matter how hard I tired so sound open and not defensive, or how many examples there were of my being very open to others’ ideas. These labels can stick.)

      I also suggest that your wife not try to explain to the internal client or higher-up how her designs meet the requirements they laid out for her during the first phase of the project. Even if she is correct (which she probably is) this will not help. I can remember trying to explain “But you asked for ‘x’, and if I make the change you are suggesting, you will no longer have ‘x’! See how I’ve given you ‘x’ and that will no longer be possible if I do as you’re saying?” Nooooo … do not do this! Many people upon seeing exactly what they asked for brought to life think better of it and then ask for something else, although they will not frame it that way. This works differently for firm designers – they will charge fees for changes – but internal designers just have to just keep plugging away. See above about going away and coming back with something slightly different.

      Hope this is helpful. There are a lot of great tips here, and I’m going to check out the links myself. I will leave you with some humor for your wife, which I’ll post in a comment to this post …

    12. Tuesday Next*

      I’m a UX designer and I was approached by someone on LinkedIn looking for a mentor. Perhaps your wife could try that?

      Also, this can be difficult for any designer, regardless of first/second language. Most designers are not taught to explain their rationale in a clear way. I can see that it could be more difficult if you are less confident with the language.

      One thing that helps me a lot is to think through and verbalise my design decisions before I present my work. Hope this helps!

  5. Mustache Cat*

    I love Dear Prudence, and there was a letter this week that I’m dying to discuss with the AAM commentariat (I hope this is okay, Alison- it is about work and I don’t think it would fit in any other post!) What do people here think? I’ve copied it below:

    Dear Prudence,
    I am an older, sexually conservative woman who got herpes from a man I was dating. He’s a pillar of the community and did not tell me he had herpes. I had a long dry spell before we started dating. My issue is that I have an unlabeled bottle of herpes medication in my desk drawer at work. My administrative assistant asked for some pain relievers, and I opened my desk drawer and shared from a labeled, over-the-counter bottle of acetaminophen. I saw her staring at the unlabeled bottle in the drawer. Later that day I went back to my office, and she and another person had actually opened the unlabeled bottle and were looking at the medicine! I was too stunned to say anything, and they left. I guess they looked at the color and numbers on the pills and looked up the medication. In the few months after that —I kid you not—several people at the office have “casually” mentioned herpes and how disgusting it is. At the company potluck, no one touched my dish. One co-worker asked about a red spot on my hand and said loudly, “Yuck, it looks like herpes!”

    One odd thing about this is that I have been extraordinarily financially generous to the admin who peeked and told. I don’t understand why this is happening. I used to like my job, and I make a very high salary. If I leave the company, I fear this issue will follow me. I was not in the least bit promiscuous in my life (truly). I feel so ashamed, though.
    —Pariah

    Thoughts? Let’s discuss!

    2. Murphy*

      WTF? That’s incredibly inappropriate! To go through someone’s desk and look up their medication? I can’t imagine why anyone would ever do that.

      1. Lora*

        Honestly, my first assumption would be “admin was looking for opiates and needs the EAP for addiction services.”

    4. Eowyn*

      Not only was this person’s admin going through her desk but they went through her medicine?!?! WTF. If the LW is a manager for her admin I would have a serious talk with her and HR and tell her that her job is now in jeopardy. That is so ridiculous and such an invasion of privacy I don’t know how LW could continue working with her admin.

      2. Brandy*

        To have the bottle open and be staring at the meds. And if the bottle was unlabeled, how do they know its herpes meds. And some meds are used for many conditions.

        1. Alice*

          To answer your question — there are some apps that can help identify pills based on size, shape, color — it’s actually a helpful thing for people who are trying to sort out their own medication. Imagine that your grandfather spilled his weekly pill holder on the floor and everything’s mixed up. But to use these apps to re-identify someone else’s pills out of prurient curiosity is very weird.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Yes, I’ve used those apps when a label came off a bottle before, and they’re useful for that. But using them to snoop through someone else’s meds and figure out what they are and then gossip about it? That is so far beyond the pale.

          2. LCL*

            Oh yeah, I forgot these data bases have other uses than trying to figure out if the aspirin in the teenager’s medicine bottle is really aspirin.

          1. Specialk9*

            OP, you are totally normal, if more informed than most.

            My doctor won’t even give a test for herpes (HSV2, “genital”) without a reeeeally compelling reason. She said that roughly half of the population has herpes*, but people don’t realize that. It’s an unfortunate and terrible stigma. But that’s not the key question.

            The key thing, OP, is that a co-worker snooped in your desk, opened your medications, and are now organizing a smear campaign based on YOUR PRIVATE MEDICAL DATA. There’s it’s soooooooooooo much wrong with this — general ethics, basic human decency, and workplace appropriateness.

            The only thing to do is to write up every single person involved – without mentioning the specific medical condition – and request that they be fired.

            If you leave, only did so with a big freaking monetary settlement for workplace harassment. But don’t leave – get them all sh1t-canned! Their behavior is egregious.

            *The stats I’ve read say 25%, but since almost nobody with herpes knows it, I believe the 50% was an estimate based on very low testing rates.

            1. Tiny Soprano*

              Seconding this. If it wasn’t already the height of inappropriate behaviour to go through your meds (what even. Who does this???), viruses in the herpes family are so common I can’t believe there’s even still a stigma around them. Anyone who’s ever had mono/glandular/cyto/coldsores? They’ve had herpes too.

              Heck this brings up so many questions. Do they act like this towards disabled employees too? Do they go through people’s bags to see if they have birth control pills in there?

      3. Brandy*

        Exactly, this invasion of privacy is akin to the boss going thru her employees purse. I would have to let the admin go. If my boss caught me gossiping about her or going into her desk, Id be out.

      4. Blue Anne*

        Yes. Admin should be fired.

        In an ideal, staircase-wit world, I like to imagine OP finding them in her office going through her medication and asking “Why shouldn’t I fire both of you right now?”

        1. I'm Not Phyllis*

          I normally wouldn’t advocate jumping to this, but I’m on board here. I can’t imagine being able to trust the admin with anything again.

      6. neverjaunty*

        Seriously. I’d be tempted to tell the admin “I’m not comfortable working with someone who snoops through my personal medication, and you’re clearly not comfortable in a role where you’re expected not to snoop and gossip into other people’s medical condition. Please collect your things from your desk.”

    5. Katniss*

      This is so sad. Both that the woman is feeling like she has to defend herself against being labeled promiscuous (because tons of people get herpes, and it rarely relates to how many people you sleep with, and even if she WAS promiscuous, there’s nothing wrong with that!) and that people at her workplace are acting so awful based on outdated, inaccurate ideas about a very common disease.

      1. Mustache Cat*

        I’d be awfully tempted to wait until I see a cold sore on one of the tormentors (and I’m willing to bet many people in the office have them!) and loudly offer my condolences that they have herpes. But that’s not quite helpful to anyone or society at large.

        1. Myrin*

          Incidentally, that’s what is meant in my language when you say “Herpes” (I mean, it’s certainly also used for the genital kind but whenever people speak about it, they mean cold sores). It was quite the misunderstanding for me when I first stumbled across it on an English-speaking website and they decidedly didn’t mean the sores at your lips.

    6. Fabulous*

      WOW. Not to mention that herpes wasn’t even taboo until advertising made it so in the mid-twentieth century.

      It’s absolutely NONE of the admin’s business what is in the LW’s desk drawer. I would agree that it’s a fire-able offense, not only because if the admin is snooping on this, then what else is she snooping on? She obviously has no regard for private information and could be a liability to the company.

      1. LCL*

        I read this. It’s not even the snooping, it’s the opening someone else’s medicine without their permission or a medical emergency in progress. That lack of judgement alone should be enough to get her fired.

        1. Kvothe*

          Ummm not to mention I would be pretty miffed if my coworkers stuck their fingers and hands all over medication I’m supposed to swallow…like I very much doubt they scrubbed up before sticking their fingers in the bottle to investigate. So gross and boundary violating on a completely separate level in addition to the snooping

    7. GG*

      Is it not understandable though that people want to protect themselves against someone with an infectious/contagious disease?

      1. Julia*

        Not sleeping with your co-workers might solve that.

        Plus, they didn’t even know what kind of medicine the LW had. If someone had gone through my stuff to look at my antidepressants, I’d be livid.

        1. Tiny Soprano*

          Ditto. And as open as I like to be about my mental health, there are plenty of people with conditions who don’t want to share that private info with their office. Anyhow I’d still be horrified if anyone started going through my meds at work. That’s pole-vaulting over the line right there.

      2. Athena X*

        No, it is not.

        Going through someone’s unmarked pill bottle in their personal work space and researching what the pills are for is not an understandable response to fear of disease.

      3. Lissa*

        What part of snooping in medication to find out what it was, and then making nasty comments to your coworker about their condition will help somebody protect against a disease?

      5. Ted Mosby*

        You are not seriously suggesting that you have the right to all of your coworkers medical information? That’s as stupid as it is rude.

    8. RVA Cat*

      I was hoping that someone would post this in the open thread.
      This is ridiculous, and that admin and the other employee who snooped at her medication should have been fired. The OP should absolutely go to HR about this and the gossip – which is really just sexism and an attempt to undermine her authority.
      p.s. The OP has nothing to be ashamed of, and our society *should* see herpes as just another medical condition.

    9. Brandy*

      Wouldn’t this be considered sexual harassment? Jumping to the conclusion that your boss has a (supposed) STD(she doesn’t know for certain and its not always sexual either) and spreading this about.

        1. fposte*

          NAL, but I doubt it, because there’s no indication it’s based on gender or sexual behavior. OTOH, I think there could be ADA issues; apparently there was at least one ADA in the workplace case that was allowed to proceed with a claim of discrimination against genital herpes.

          1. Optimistic Prime*

            I was thinking about ADA concerns myself. Treating the OP differently because she has a chronic medical condition has got to be some kind of violation.

      2. Specialk9*

        This letter is actually a really good example of why we should all remove “STD” (sexually transmitted disease) from our vocabularies and switch to “STI” (sexually transmitted infection). The stigma around STIs needs to die down, and safer sex measures be seen as blandly routine as nurses wearing gives.

        1. Fabulous*

          They’ve been trying to switch the terminology to STI for 15+ years and it’s still not used. I learned “STI” back in 2001(?) and even in class people still said STD. All. The. Time.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I read a while ago that there is a cancer that can be sexually transmitted. Yeah, I think people need to have that raised awareness. Hep C is another example.

          1. OhNo*

            Are you thinking of HPV? It’s a virus, and I believe certain iterations of it can cause cancer. It’s the one that vaccine (Gardasil, maybe?) was supposed to help prevent, and there was a big marketing push for young women to get the three-shot series.

            As far as I know, though, there’s still no way to spread cancer by sexual contact.

            1. Anion*

              Yes, thank you. You CAN have cervical cancer *without* having HPV; I know, because it happened to me.

              In other words, just because you’re not sexually active doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be getting pap smears, ladies, and just because you’ve had the vaccine doesn’t mean you can skip them, either.

            3. ST*

              “As far as I know, though, there’s still no way to spread cancer by sexual contact.”

              Unfortunately, that is not quite correct. HPV can easily be spread by oral sex, and is leading to a great rise in head and neck cancers.

        3. fposte*

          I don’t think that’s going to make any difference to the stigma, though; the stigma comes from the ST, not the D.

        4. Mike C.*

          How is STD stigmatized in a way that STI is not?

          /Also, car folks hear STI and think “Subaru Tecnica International”

          1. Ann O.*

            I’m not in the health field, but I thought the STD/STI distinction was actually a distinction among the various types of sexually transmittable conditions. Like syphilis and gonorrhea are STIs, but I thought herpes was actually an STD.

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              Sort of…the usage STI became popular because a lot of the infections you can get sexually don’t necessarily develop into diseases or show symptoms in certain folks. Syphilis and gonorrhea can be diseases or infections, depending; herpes is in a grey area; HPV is an infection and not a disease. HIV is an infection, but the disease is AIDS. STI was just a more general catch-all term that was more accurate than STD.

              So all STDs are STIs, but not all STIs are STDs.

    10. Brandy*

      Wouldn’t this be sexual harassment from her admin? Thinking her boss has a STD and spreading this gossip throughout the company.

    12. fposte*

      Let’s also note Mallory’s totally wrong assertion in her answer that this was a breach of FMLA. Whaaa?? No. (On the other hand, the company disparagement of her could be an ADA issue.)

      I think the poster may have been trying to manage by nice even before this incident and was additionally weighted down by her personal feelings about herpes in this instance. Assistant should have been fired ASAP and HR reported to, and the moment people got gross and shamey a complaint should have been filed (and hopefully the jackasses read the riot act, thought it didn’t sound like the OP was up to that yet).

      1. Jadelyn*

        …where does she think FMLA gets involved here? Just, how do you go from “intrusiveness into a medical condition of a coworker” to “violation of protected leave laws”? I mean she links to a story about a worker who had filed an FMLA claim, the manager knew why based on his leave certification paperwork, and told others at the company about it, and the courts found *that* to be an FMLA violation, but this is…not really comparable? Given that OP hadn’t filed an FMLA claim so they didn’t find out her information based on FMLA paperwork, which is what the court’s finding in the linked case was based on, that medical information disclosed during an FMLA claim is confidential information…yeah I don’t see it.

        Although, if OP were in California, this could be a FEHA discrimination claim, since CA’s anti-discrimination statute includes medical condition as a protected category. And I think you’re right about a potential ADA claim as well.

        1. fposte*

          I think it’s just that this is medical and therefore FMLA seemed relevant (though I don’t think this would breach any of the confidentiality guidelines even if the OP were taking FMLA, so it’s doubly off-base). Mostly I think many people are sure that PHI is universally legally protected somehow. Which of course it isn’t.

          Interesting about the FEHA thing. But she has to tell her bosses or HR for anything to happen on anything, that’s for sure.

          1. Susan K*

            I’m guessing that she was thinking of HIPAA, which is also not applicable here, but is frequently invoked by people who mistakenly believe that PHI is universally legally protected.

        2. Close Bracket*

          FMLA has requirements regarding confidentiality of employee medical records. Not sure whether they would apply to meds kept in a drawer, though.

      2. Footiepjs*

        Mallory is so misguided on office norms and workplace laws. As soon as I saw the letter I thought, “Oh, the LW should’ve written AAM instead!”

        1. Artemesia*

          This. She should have at least gotten consultant help before blathering about the law and getting it wrong. She is so inexperienced in the workplace and her advice is so often ridiculous when it deals with anything professional. ‘Hey it would be fun to write an advice column.’ just isn’t qualification for doing this especially on workplace issues.

          1. Jules the Third*

            She does really well with LBGTQx and family issues, but yeah, she needs a workplace law primer.

          2. BenAdminGeek*

            I don’t think ‘Hey it would be fun to write an advice column.’ is a charitable interpretation of Mallory’s work. I find her columns very helpful. That doesn’t mean she is 100% correct on workplace law in every situation, but she does good work and it’s well-focused to the situations people write to her about.

          3. Ann O.*

            Workplace is Mallory’s particular weakness, IMHO. I don’t think she’s had much, if any, conventional workplace experience. But I prefer Mallory’s weakness to her predecessor’s!

        2. BF50*

          I think she’s confusing FMLA with HIPPA, not that this is a violation of HIPPA either. It’s firable, but not specifically illegal. You can legally be a snooping jerk, but it should also get you fired.

          She links to an article were disclosing a medical condition is a violation of FMLA, but in the article, the medical condition was used to request FMLA and the manger who received the FMLA request obtained the confidential medical information in her capacity as manager and then gossiped about it with those who had no reason to need to know that info. So maybe in that very specific scenario.

        3. Turtle Candle*

          Yeah, she’s also a couple of times invoked ‘hostile workplace’ where it didn’t apply–which is a common mistake to make, admittedly, but cringey when you’re actually giving advice. Or advised people to threaten legal action over workplace matters that were not in fact actually questions of law.

        4. NASA*

          I think this 99% of the time when I read DP, LOL! Work questions just don’t really fit with DP IMO.

        5. BenAdminGeek*

          I’ve not noticed any issues with that for Mallory, though I’m a big fan of her work, so may be biased.

        6. Drew*

          And/or Captain Awkward – because I’m imagining Jennifer’s response to this letter and it is warming my chilly toes.

      3. The IT Manager*

        Yes. I caught that right awake. Snooping and gossiping are not a violation of the FMLA. They’d have to use medical info disclosed in support of the FMLA in order to violate the law.

      4. Close Bracket*

        FMLA has requirements regarding confidentiality of employee medical records (and boy do I wish I had known this when my supervisor broadcast the medical information in my FMLA request to all and sundry).

    13. Anonymous Educator*

      Apart from the snooping aspect of this, there is altogether too much herpes stigma in society.

      The letter writer thinks she got herpes from the man she was dating, but it’s very possible she got it from someone else and is only showing symptoms now. Many people have herpes and almost never show symptoms. It’s also a treatable (not cureable) infection.

      Probably many of the co-workers being jerks have herpes, too, and don’t know it.

    15. RME*

      Identically the same medicine is used to treat shingles and chicken pox. If she is willing to misdirect the judgement, she could casually make some remarks about shingles (“did you know that chicken pox is in the same virus family as herpes? Who knew! I wish I’d been vaccinated!”). Certainly her company should be hit with a large HIPPA mallet, but the sad reality is that this will affect her work environment, and people will be judgmental unless they can be persuaded her “drugs of shame” are for something “normal.”

      2. Tiny Soprano*

        Exactly. Cytomegalovirus sounds much more “medical-ish” than herpes. Even though it’s totally a herpes virus.

    16. it_guy*

      This is an EEOC violation, if they are discriminating against you because of a medical condition, which is a protected class.

      I would talk to HR

      1. You're Not My Supervisor*

        But what would the discriminatory action be here? Not eating her food at the potluck? Just being nasty in general?

        I mean I agree this is SUPER crappy behavior on the part of the OP’s coworkers, but is it discrimination?

        1. Mike C.*

          I mean, isn’t it a major problem if I start treating someone like garbage if it’s based on their race or religion? If this medical condition is treated the same way, then it seems like it would make sense.

    17. Natalie*

      Wow, nobody tell these people that 2/3 of people have had herpes at some point in their lives. They’ll never be able to touch potluck food again!

    18. Lynca*

      I read this earlier this week and was like WTH you let it get this far before pulling them into your office about going through your desk drawer for medication? Let alone when the harassment started.

      I can understand being blind sided in the moment. But not letting it go unaddressed for several months. I guess I have heard too many workplace stories about medication stealing in search of pain killers.

    19. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      THIS! I was thinking the same thing. First of all, going through the desk and touching her meds? Secondly, they were unlabeled (I wondered why, but now I understand). How can you still keep her there? OMG!

    20. August*

      Ahhhh I was hoping someone would bring this letter up here! I’d love to hear Alison’s take on it (especially since, wonderful as she is, Mallory’s specialty is definitely not workplace advice– what is she talking about with FMLA?). This woman’s workplace sounds absolutely terrible, and it’s such a shame that her ignorant coworkers are compounding her embarrassment surrounding such a common disease. She should fire that admin immediately, report the other person to whoever oversees them, and explain that she found the both of them sorting through her desk and medication to whoever asks.

      1. Close Bracket*

        FMLA has provisions for keeping medical records confidential. Not sure how that would apply to undisclosed pills in a drawer, though.

    21. D.W.*

      I don’t even know where to begin. I wish the LW wrote to AAM, so she could read advice from the commentariat.

      The admin AND co-worker should absolutely be fired, and the LW hopefully high-tailed it to HR to report them.

      1. Liane*

        I am pretty sure Mallory has suggested AAM once or twice, so was surprised she didn’t refer her LW on this one.
        (I know a lot of people here prefer Mallory to her predecessor, Emily Yoffe, but I really think Emily was better about recognizing when a question was out of her expertise and is one reason I still miss Emily)

        2. DaniCalifornia*

          I also miss Emily! I often agree with Mallory, but sometimes I think she misses other good points that Emily would bring up (I felt her answers were longer) But Mallory seems to be growing into the role quite well.

        3. Lissa*

          I feel like I usually agree with 2/3 of Mallory’s advice but there’s often one or two letters where I disagree *really* strongly and feel like she just rips into a letter writer with no actual advice. Or maybe deliberately selects letters where she can do that, since people do seem to like that.

    23. DaniCalifornia*

      I saw this and wondered what Alison would say about this! (Other than WTF?!? because really there is no other good reaction)

      I would have gone to HR by now if that was happening. The minute someone brought it up. I hope this woman’s HR team helps her out and/or she finds a better job. Those coworkers are scummy!

    24. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Yea, I’d look at them oddly at their herpes comments and respond, “No, I don’t think it’s chicken pox. Why would you think that?” “No, I’ve never heard of a cold sore on someone’s hand. Why would you think that?” “No, I don’t think it’s shingles — that’s usually extremely painful. Why do you think that?” Always put it back on them to justify why they think that. Say it with a bemused look on your face like they are just the silliest little child ever.

      These ignoramus’ probably don’t even know what herpes is or how common it is. I remember being part of a discussion on another forum and one lady was asking about what to do with a food thief boss who would casually take a bite of other people’s food (while they were eating it) or pick up beverages from their desks and drink from it and how could she politely get him to stop without making it a Big Deal. In the conversation she mentioned that he gets cold sores and someone piped up that they’ve now been exposed to herpes (if she hadn’t already) and several of the posters would just not believe that cold sores were caused by herpes because they get cold sores but (gasp) don’t have herpes — how dare you!

    25. nep*

      As many have said — unfathomable invasion of privacy. Someone should be held accountable for that.

    26. onlyhuman*

      Everybody has herpes. It’s a virus we have in our body. Sometimes it shows up, sometimes it doesn’t. Same as having a cold sore. Who gives a shit.

    27. Indisch Blau*

      It has been months since this occurred. Of course the admin should have been disciplined (or fired) immediately. But what should the question-asker do now? Should she still fire the admin? How can she contain the damage that has ensued in the meantime? The whole office knows about the pills.

  6. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    How do you explain why you know a lot of unusual stuff that don’t fit your background?

    This is a lighthearted, almost humblebraggy question but it does seem to come up fairly often in my work life.

    My “special talent” is that I know lots of stuff about lots of different areas. It makes me a great trivia player and has even won me some money off trivia tv shows, but other than that, it’s nothing remarkable. It also makes me a good dinner partner – I can ask reasonably intelligent questions about most topics.

    I don’t exactly know WHY I know so much stuff, a combination of well-read parents and a good memory coupled with curiousity, is my best guess.

    I work as a management consultant so it’s not entirely unexpected that I should know have a broad general knowledge, but I’m still very junior and my degree is in business.

    With some regularity, I’ll ask a question or clarify something that’s outside the sphere of general knowledge and the people around me will do a doubletake and ask “Why do you know about that?”
    It’s not unusual knowledge, just somewhat unusual for someone with no background in whatever we’re talking about.

    It could be everything from knowing about a social secuity law acronym, to the history of German Starkbier or the name of the IT system doctors in my country use to apply for special prescription licenses. Or who’s running an obscure department in the Army or the divide between politicians and medicical professionals in my country about doctors seeing patients through apps.

    I usually laugh it off and say that I have a memory like sponge so I just pick up a lot of random things or say that it’s my party trick.

    Any advice for what I could say other than that?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m in a somewhat similar position. I’ve started using the Tyrion Lannister line of “I drink and I know things” with a smile and a shrug, but my audience usually understands the reference.

      5. Elizabeth*

        I have a t-shirt from the Suess Family Foundation with the Cat in the Hat, Thing 1 and Thing 2 that says “I read and I know things”. I regularly wear it to trivia night contests. I often joke that my brain is the off-line Wikipedia.

    2. NeverNicky*

      I’m a bit the same – although your obscure knowledge had me beat – and I just laugh and say “oh, Trivial Pursuit was a competitive sport in my family!” or “I was a geeky child who would read the Encyclopaedia Britannica on rainy lunchtimes!”

      I find people don’t actually want to know how you know this stuff, they are just expressing their surprise.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Oh, I agree with you there! They’re not actually interested in the how, but I still have to say something in response, you know?

        I love your first suggestion, that would work very well !

      2. nonegiven*

        My mom had to supervise if I needed to look up something, for school, in the encyclopedia. I’d end up reading random things I while looking for it and waste an hour.

    3. Barbara in Swampeast*

      I have been there. You just have to roll with it.

      Some people will be very intimidated by your knowledge, but that is because they are so insecure about their own. Others will look at you weirdly. But once in a while you may find someone like you and have great conversations. Treasure those times because they will be few (unless you are very lucky).

      Just keep being you and keep reading. I am always finding weird facts just before I need to use them. It comes in very handy.

      1. Mazzy*

        I would just say “I read a lot.” The problem is that now a days with everything being Google-able, I’ve also met people who “know a lot” when in reality they “know that thing exists,” which isn’t helpful. So when I say “we should do X” and they say “it’s a great idea” and I ask why and they give me an answer that basically boils down to “an internet article told me so,” their credibility takes a ding. It’s also important to think about how deep your knowledge is of the topic, and if it’s superficial knowledge, it may not be worth bringing up in a business situation where people will be looking to make decisions impacting money and personnel on it

        1. Some sort of Management Consultant*

          Oh, I don’t pretend to be an expert! I definitely know I know nothing, in reality. I literally use it the way I said: using the correct acronym in place of a general term or ask a question along the lines of “is this similar to x?”

          1. Some sort of Management Consultant*

            To give an example from this week:
            I was going through a long list of different types of medical specialties and clinics in my city with a group of medical professionals. We were trying to figure out if any were missing and I asked if they thought certain services for people with disabilities should be included.

            Most people know those services exist but probably don’t know the proper name.

            But I’m certainly not playing it as me being an Expert on Everything ™.

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        What Barbara in Swampeast said. I’m also a Trivia Buff. Some folks are intrigued others, not so much. But I just keep doing my thing–reading, learning and taking in all kinds of weird and interesting facts. A few times, it’s won me money and prizes. Ha!

      1. Some sort of Management Consultant*

        Love it!! Unfortunately the pun doesn’t work in my language otherwise I definitely would use that!

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      My spouse knows a lot of random crap, and her explanation is usually “I watch a lot of TV.”

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m the same way. I usually tell people that I just have a really good memory (true!) and I usually follow up with a joke about how I can’t remember what I did this morning before my coffee, but I can remember something I read about when I was 12. Knowledge of trivia is often nothing more than a function of memory combined with interest; I (and, I suspect, you) simply have a great memory and find a wide variety of things interesting.

    9. Nan*

      I’m like that, too. I have a pile of useless/obscure knowledge that’s unbelievable. When my husband asks me how I know something, I just smile and say “everybody knows that!” because I know it irks him. In a professional setting you could just go with “I read it somewhere, and things like that tend to stick with me.”

      2. Charlotte Collins*

        That’s the weirdest thing, because I also know (and love trivia). But I currently live in a different state than where I grew up. I occasionally had former co-workers ask how I knew certain things, and I mentioned learning it in school. Since they knew I had an advanced degree, they’d say, “Not everyone went to grad school.”

        It was usually something I learned in middle or high school. Really made me question the curriculum around here… (FTR we all went to public schools.)

        1. Boötes*

          Sometimes I will pause for a moment before earnestly responding, “Grade 6, in the unit on Peru.”

    10. J.B.*

      Can you extend the skill to becoming the person who knows how to find things out? That can be incredibly useful, and comes with openness and willing to talk with different people about things. Finding people who are genuinely curious can be incredibly useful.

      I would just generically say something like “I’m curious, read a lot” (or watch TED talks) but I do like the Tyrion quote suggested :)

      1. oldbiddy*

        I once took an online intelligence test and it gave me an IQ number and also categorized me as an “information collector”, which is pretty true. I’m the master of obscure facts stored semi-randomly in my brain. My brother is the same way. I suspect most of it comes from a combination of reading a lot of non-fiction/articles and talking with people about random stuff.
        As a chemist, it comes in pretty handy, and many of my colleagues are the same way, so I don’t get questioned about it very often. We used to kick butt when we went to trivia night.

    11. What the French, Toast*

      My older sister used to get mad because I have a really broad range of trivia/knowledge as well and I would answer Trivial Pursuit questions correctly that should have been beyond someone my age. She’d sputter “How does she KNOW that??” I read a lot and watched a ton of TV – you’d be surprised what kinds of knowledge you can pick up from offhand comments made in movies and TV shows. I knew the answer to a Jeopardy question about the Rat Pack because of a joke the father makes in the movie Clueless. Stuff like that.

      Is “Jeopardy” a thing where you live? You could just shrug and say you watched a lot of Jeopardy.

      1. Reba*

        One time we were playing Cranium (a game that blends trivial pursuit, charades, etc.) and my brother, then about 9, somehow came up with “Zsa Zsa Gabor.”

        This became a kind of shorthand in my family of origin for “I just know, ok?!”

      2. Drew*

        Reminds me of the time we were having a family game of Trivial Pursuit (I was probably 12 or 13) and the question was to name the grandchildren in “When I’m 64.”

        My mom started sputtering that no one could possibly be expected to remember that. Meanwhile, I’m humming quietly and suddenly blurt out (singing, no less), “Vera, Chuck, and Dave.” Mom just looked at me for a second and then said, “You scare me and I’m glad you’re on my team.”

        (This was the same game in which I missed a question I will never ever forget: the national vegetable of Wales is the leek. I will not forget it because I blurted out a really inappropriate response that centered on “taking a leek” and my family has still not let me forget it.)

    12. Flossie Bobbsey*

      I’d probably say something lighthearted about being a huge trivia buff, never missing an episode of Jeopardy!, or having a lot of random interests.

    13. Andrea*

      I always say I do crossword puzzles, which have a wide variety of random knowledge! (It has the added benefit of being true, I do work on crosswords, but I also read a lot, and fall down the wikipedia rabbit hole upon occasion).

    14. Temperance*

      I am similarly into trivia (although have never been on TV!), so I say that Ken Jennings is my spirit animal and then spout off my favorite anecdote about Ken, which is that he knew the name of the doctor who set John Wilkes Booth’s broken arm (Dr. Samuel Mudd).

    16. But you don't have an accent*

      Hi, are you me? I usually just shrug my shoulders and say “I just know a lot of random facts for no reason”. But I might start stealing the Tyrion quote MechanicalPencil mentioned!

      1. AngelicGamer*

        ^ That for me plus a healthy curiosity. If I don’t know the answer, I Google and then start reading about the topic. I have spent many of nights up reading because someone went “hey, what’s x?”, Googling, and then wanting to know everything about it.

        I also remember really off hand stuff about Marvel / DC comics lore that make people do a double take on me. Only because of my gender but meh. /eyeroll

        2. OhNo*

          I’m with you on the comics thing. With my gender, I don’t get questioned on it, but I do know a lot of weird alternate-universe facts that confuse people. The Marvel wiki is like a sinkhole for me.

          FWIW, my answer whenever someone asks how I know something is always the same: “Learned it on a Wikipedia binge once.” It’s vague enough that people who don’t care can dismiss it out of hand, but people who are interested always have follow-up questions (usually of the “How the heck did you end up there?” variety).

    18. Perse's Mom*

      Six degrees of Wikipedia separation.

      Look up something about A, follow a link there about subtopic B, follow a link about interesting person C and suddenly it’s three hours later and you know way more about random topic X than you did before.

      2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        The trivia sections of IMDB. One minute, I’m trying to figure out why I know that actress in that movie and now suddenly I have a list of all the actresses ever considered for a role. Or how many directors wanted to make the movie before it finally got made. So much entertainment trivia, so few places to actually use it!

        1. Perse's Mom*

          I’m terrible about it on multiple websites! Just one more article/video/thread/cat picture, then I’ll go to bed! It’s never just one more!

    19. Dave Wheeler*

      I have the same issue, never considered it a problem though. I do have one up on you here, my educational background is in Sociology, specifically deviance and criminality. This has brought many a ghastly stare when I am able to explain or give an opinion on story in the news that is much darker than would be expected from a Tea Pot Administrator. Example: A few years ago in NYC a man was arrested for murdering a young boy, half of the boy’s body was in the man’s freezer the other half in a dumpster, I explained to a coworker hat the man probably couldn’t fit the entire body in the freezer, being that many NYC apartments are quite small, and is why only half of the body was there. She replied , “How could you even think of something like that, let alone understand it?” All I could do was shrug and explain my educational background.

      1. OtterB*

        My daughter has a degree in law enforcement. She says she has to remember that not everyone wants to have a discussion about serial killers or crime scenes over dinner.

        I like the “I read it somewhere, and these things stick” explanation. Though if you want to go for the humorous touch, I’d try something similar to what AvonLady Barksdale suggested: “I know, I remember things like this but don’t know where I left my car keys.”

    20. Not That Jane*

      My husband is like this. When people express amazement at his general knowledge, he shrugs and says, “I read a lot.”

    21. Myrin*

      I have a thing that is somewhat adjacent to that – I have a great memory for really insignificant stuff but a not-so-great memory for a lot of important stuff.

      Example from just two weeks ago: I was at a conference and talked with a group of people when someone mentioned a scientific article I was very interested in. I even specifically asked the name of the author! And when I got home that evening, I had promptly forgotten not only author and title of the article, but even what it was all about! However, I could describe in minute detail what the guy who mentioned it wore, what kind of book was being exhibited while he mentioned the article, what was said in the conversation surrounding the article, who else was present and where they stood, etc.

      That led to some kinda-awkward situations where it seemed like I cared intensely about something that was completely trivial just because I remembered it, or where I told someone “Haha, remember when we said this and that, that was fun!” and they had zero clue what I was even talking about. I mostly just roll with it and say that I have a weirdly good and specific memory.

    22. Not Tom, just Petty*

      It doesn’t matter. Some people just suck. “Hey Karma, what was that group that famous actor used to advertise?” Oh, he was the XYZ corp. spokesman in 1962.”
      How do you know that? I hear things.
      Well, that’s just weird. I would never bother remembering that. That’s why I ask you.
      Because you wanted to know or because you wanted to mock me? It’s ok. I’ll wait.
      And god forbid you don’t know some obscure fact. Then it’s “oh! you’re becoming like your parents. It’s bound to happen.”
      yeah, my parents both have dementia and 24/7 nursing care.
      I work with a-holes.

    23. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      My husband calls me the queen of useless knowledge. Weird bits of info just stick. Usually, I’ll laugh it off or say something about how weird/random things just stick for me. Sometimes I throw in a self-deprecating remark about how I wished I could remember all the things I’m supposed to remember. Although, I don’t do that at work!

    24. Yorick*

      Most of the time people will ask about a single bit of trivia and you can just say, “oh, I read it somewhere”

    25. Turquoisecow*

      No advice, but this has happened to me often. I usually just say “I read a lot,” because most of the information I’ve picked up has come from reading.

    26. TiffIf*

      Oh geeze, this reminds me of something that happened a couple of months ago. A friend of mine invited me to watch the perseid meteor shower with her family. Her parents were also there and her father is a older man who likes to talk and likes to show how much he knows. It was a little stormy and cloudy that night–and he was saying if there was lightning nearby the safest place was in the car. He then said “anyone know why?” and so I answered (knowing he actually wasn’t expecting anyone to know) that a car can act as a Faraday cage. It totally caught him off guard which was kind of funny, but also really annoying–he then asked if I was in the sciences–which I am not. I just happen to know a lot of things and read a lot!

      1. JanetM*

        I have also found that I know things I didn’t realize until the right lever was pulled.

        About 20 years ago, I was on a flight back to my childhood home because my Mom was dying, so I was in no mood for nonsense. While we were waiting for taxi permission, the guy next to me said, “Oh, for crying out loud! The air conditioning just died. It’s going to be a miserable flight. I’m ringing for the flight attendant.”

        Before he could do so, I heard words coming out of my mouth. “No, don’t. The annunciator ping we just heard was the plane coming off the power cart and onto internal batteries. As soon as they spin up the engines, it’ll cool off.”

        He stared at me as if I’d grown a second head. Then did so again when the pilot started the engines and the air started cooling down.

    27. Clever Name*

      Both my mom and I are like this. I was chit-chatting with the CEO in the break room and I made an offhand comment about nanoparticles (trust me, it was relevant). She said, “Wow, you really know a lot about a lot of different things.” My go-to response to stuff like this is to shrug and smile and say, “I read a lot”. :)

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        I had a great Uncle who had a powerful memory and was full of Useless Trivia. I’m proud to say, I’m exactly like him.

    29. Bryce*

      Depending on the person my response can be anywhere from “you pick things up here and there” to a shrug and “doesn’t everybody?” Sometimes I’ll specifically remember exactly where I learned something but I’ve learned that “oh one of my elementary school classmates was family friends with an Apollo astronaut and he talked to us about that sort of thing” is not actually what people wanted to know, and can sound too much like name-dropping.

    30. Djuna*

      I just shrug and tell people I’m a mine of useless information.
      It seems to work in almost all situations. I’m also careful about “just” knowing a lot of random stuff, rather than knowing a lot of random stuff “at” people. Like, I’ll be an ace on your pub-quiz team, but I won’t deliver a treatise on the Hiberno-English dental t just because someone remarks on an accent.

      I don’t know how often your “some regularity” is, but be wary of feeling you have to show how much you know at every opportunity. That can get wearying for those around you, very quickly. I’m not saying you definitely do this, but if you’re looking for help dealing with reactions you’ve noticed, it may be a cue to dial it back a little?

    31. Lissa*

      My “Thing” is similar. I have a really really good verbal memory (don’t ask me where I left my keys though.) I will often remember something someone told me like 6 months ago. This is usually cool and people like it but occasionally I get a comment that it’s creepy that I “think about someone’s life that much” or act like only an obsessed person would remember little details. I can’t help it, it’s just normal to me and I don’t even really know what’s weird to remember vs. expected!

    32. Tiny Soprano*

      If you’re talking to an Aussie, claiming that you’re a “suppository of wisdom” will usually get you a giggle. (We had a complete onion of a PM a few years back who coined this phrase)

  7. qwertyuiop*

    I’ve been at my job for 3 months now and my boss has asked me now a second time if I’m happy in my position.

    He asked it a previous time and said that he didn’t want me to leave. He asked me again recently and I’m not sure why. I have a resting face (BRF) that makes it look like I’m upset/worried all of the time, but short of plastic surgery I can’t change my face!

    I talk with my co-workers and socialize, so I don’t know what else to do. I can’t walk around with a smile on my face all of the time, so I don’t know. Maybe people are saying that I don’t look happy? I don’t know.

    Should I ask him why he is asking?

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Yes! There is no reason not to ask about this.

      “Hey, I’ve noticed you’ve asked me a couple times if I’m happy here. I enjoy my work and this place, but am wondering why you’ve been asking me. Is there any particular reason?”

      Then let them answer. Who knows what the reason is, but maybe there’s a vibe you’re giving off, maybe they’re insecure, or something else is going on.

    3. rosiebyanyothername*

      I’d ask. Does the position you’re in have high turnover? Maybe they’re trying to get a sense of what makes people leave or stay.

      1. K.*

        That was my thought, that maybe the bloom has fallen off the rose at the 3-month mark with previous employees who have held the position and he’s trying to see if that’s happening now.

      2. AMPG*

        This is my thought, too. When I started in my current job I was the 4th person to hold this position in 3 years. A few months in I went to confess to my boss that I had made a mistake, and he said, “Oh, is that all? I thought you were going to tell me you found another job!”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      You can ask, but honestly I’d take it as a compliment, since he also told you earlier he didn’t want you to leave. If he’s concerned about you leaving, it means he knows you do good work.

    5. beanie beans*

      I wouldn’t think too much of it – you haven’t been there long, so it sounds like he’s just making sure you’re off to a good start and wanting to address if you’re not happy!

    6. Fiennes*

      Definitely ask. Like as not the reason has nothing to do with you — maybe the person before you quit suddenly, or they had another recent, unexpected departure and want to be more careful about employee retention going forward.

    7. Specialk9*

      I have RBF, or else resting worried face.

      I actually DO put on a slight smile every time I walk the halls – going to the bathroom, to get coffee, etc. I also make sure I have a boss lady gait in the highways: stand up straight, head held high, confident stance.

      I learned both as a waiter. Smiling actually does make your emotions shift, it’s incredibly powerful. Holding oneself without slumping is interpreted by others as confident and strong. I think it works – the feedback I’ve gotten is that I’m generally seen as positive and assertive.

      1. A. Non.*

        There was an advice column a while back, and one of the comments to it was about a woman who, before every job interview, would stand at home with this replica knight’s sword and kind of like, walk around pretending? And how it made her feel more confident for job interviews.

        I can’t vouch for that, but I know that when I’m doing something at work that requires a lot of mental fortitude, I will stand in front of a mirror at home with my hands on my hips in classic “superhero” pose and tell myself that I am going to be awesome, it is going to be awesome, and if I make a mistake, only I will know and my kids will love it anyway.

      2. Koko*

        Sitting/standing up straight can also really make you feel more confident! My therapist taught me this a while back. When we’re in danger we instinctively curl forward to protect our vital organs, so there’s something deep in your lizard brain that reckons you wouldn’t be exposing your soft underbelly if there was anything to worry about, and downregulates production of hormones associated with the fight-flight-freeze response, also known as stress hormones!

      3. Hillary*

        I try to engage the muscles at my temples (sort of keeping my eyebrows slightly lifted) – it gets rid of the RBF. I don’t manage to keep it going at my desk all day, but I try to put it on when I get out of my car and every time I step out of my office.

    8. Anonymous72*

      When I hired in at my current company, my soon-to-be-former boss* asked me about every month if I was happy and challenged – and it was because he knew I was underemployed, and he was expecting me to be job searching. I later learned that he and his right-hand-person didn’t even 100% expect me to show up for the first day of the job. He wanted to keep me around, so he checked in a lot. After a little while and a few small promotions, my boss stopped asking me so often, but every now and then, he’d check in. Is it maybe something like that?

      *He’s my soon-to-be-former because he just gave me a giant promotion in his area but I’ll be reporting to someone else. Sometimes it’s really, really, really nice to have a boss who is keyed-in to your happiness and work needs.

  8. Happy Gauge*

    So a post on the open thread last week got me wondering about job satisfaction/happiness. How happy are you in your job?

    Obviously jobs are not typically meant to be fun; you’re meant to do your work and get a paycheck. So how much satisfaction should you strive to find in your job? My last job, I knew I was in a terrible place; it was a crying on a weekly basis kind of position. My new job is leagues better (no tears!) but it’s still just… Okay. I don’t jump out of bed eager to get to work, I just head on in. There are a few times I get excited, with interesting projects or tasks, but nothing that doesn’t have me rushing out the door happy to be heading home in the evening. And my friends all seem the same; most just get by with their jobs. I can only think of two friends who are in jobs that they would consider dream jobs that they actually enjoy on a daily basis.

    So how do you gauge your happiness at your job? Are you actually happy or just content enough to put in your 40 hours a week for the payday?

    1. Murphy*

      My husband and I were just talking about this the other day. I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. If I suddenly won the lottery and didn’t have to work, I’d quit. I think what my office does is important work, even if I don’t love the day to day of doing it all the time. I can usually leave work at work and my benefits are pretty good. It’s a job, but generally I’m content.

      2. Fiennes*

        I’m one of those people who turned her passion into her profession and genuinely loves it. It plays to my strengths and is tolerant of my weaknesses. I set my own hours and make a good living. Every time we see warnings here about how your dream may not actually be your ideal job, even knowing how often that *is* true, I always want to jump in with “But maybe it is!”

        That said — it still feels like work most of the time. I still have to take care of the essential, mundane tasks that bore me silly. There are days it feels like hauling rocks, and I accept that, because the truth is–if there’s no downside to a job, nobody gets paid for it. It gets done for free.

        So I would just say that you have to expect some bad days/rough patches no matter what. Only you can determine, with your own individual criteria, when “rough patches” have turned into “most of the time,” and thus good reason to consider moving on.

        1. Al Lo*

          100% co-sign.

          I got my education in theatre; I make a living in the arts. I’m living the dream, but work isn’t always a dream. But I do love what I do, and what I get paid to do is what I did as a hobby before I started getting paid for it, and it’s what I loved to do as a kid.

    2. Snark*

      I mean…it depends. Would I do it for free? HAHAHAHAHANO. Am I eager to get to work? Sometimes, but usually, it’s just the thing do in the morning. But my job is in my field, it involves technical writing and analysis, I get to do interesting things, I enjoy the respect of my clients and colleagues, and I’m entrusted – as I was this morning – with sensitive, high-level, urgent projects. Hard not to be satisfied with that, even if it’s not precisely enthralling.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s exactly how I felt at my last job. I got to learn and do things I thought were cool, but it was tempered by make-work type stuff. It wasn’t a dream job, but it was definitely enough to keep me from job hunting on the regular.

        1. Snark*

          And I think part of it for me is that my life satisfaction comes when I’m on a trail with my dog, playing with my kid, cooking dinner. It’s not and has never been from work, even though I consider my field to be fascinating and fulfilling and of near-paramount importance in the world today.

    3. Work Wardrobe*

      I very much enjoy the work I do (it’s what I’m best at) and I like most of the people I work with. The hours are good and the commute is short. So, yeah — I’m happy in my job.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      I love my job. For basically the first time in my career (and I’m in my mid to late 30s) I can say I do tasks I like with people I enjoy working with. Which I used to think was an impossible dream.

      I now have the very pleasant problem of feeling unable to move job as nothing else could be this good.

      1. MoinMoin*

        As someone in her early thirties who feels like she’s floundering, this is very encouraging to hear.

    5. TeacherNerd*

      I think there are folks whose jobs are enjoyable and fun, but how we define those terms is subjective. I get to work with teenagers all day; I think that’s pretty enjoyable, and sometimes I can even have fun with them. (Sometimes we get silly.) There are things I dislike about my job (mostly having to get up at 6 a.m., but on the other hand, I’m usually home by 3:15 p.m., which I like). I’m happy at my job; I like my students (mostly), my colleagues, and my administration team; I like the culture of my school.

      That said, I don’t think everyone has a job that makes them jump out of bed with happiness. Sometimes it’s the job, and sometimes it’s because that person – like myself – just doesn’t have that personality. I like who I get to work with, and I like thinking about how to teach writing, and developing new ways to teach. I like being professionally engaged, and looking for ways to make that happen. For me, teaching is interesting in a way that office jobs are not – I find them mind-numbing, but that’s my own preference; there’s nothing wrong with office jobs: They’re just not for me. And also, as much as I like my job, I don’t want to spend 18 hours a day there; I want to spend time with my husband, or read, or go for a walk, or or or or or. I want to be more than my job.

      I think the questions to ask might include: What kind of work makes you happy? It might be paid work; it might be volunteer work, or a creative outlet (one friend loves designing and sewing costumes for local theater productions). I think one mistake people make is thinking that one’s job needs to be all encompassing (“all things to all people”).

    6. Sole*

      I think for me, happiness at my job and ‘jumping out of bed’ to get there are two separate things. I absolutely love my job, but it’s at times boring and repetitive – just a fact, not every day is going to be passionate and stimulating. Sometimes it’s just numbers in spreadsheets. But I’m ultimately still working in a healthy environment that’s supportive, fun, and surrounded by people I like and inspire me.

      Some mornings I’d rather stay cuddled up with Netflix than come to the office, but it’s rarely job specific – sometimes I just get tired of ‘work’? If I won a billion dollars I’d still want to volunteer with my organization but probably not 40+ hours a week!

      1. Bleeborp*

        I really like my job! I tried a lot of things before I found librarianship and never liked them and just figured my whole working life would be a slog but when I started working in a library I was like “OH this is it!” I love the mix of public service and desk job duties (I get burnt out by too much of either) and I am very lucky to have a boss and coworkers I like. Some libraries are not run so well so I feel very lucky in that regard. I help people, I get to be creative sometimes which I need, I learn new things constantly, and it’s pretty low stress. I don’t like it enough that I’d still work if I didn’t have to but I would consider volunteering, I like libraries that much!

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m pretty happy at my job now, to be honest. There are some downsides, of course, but there have been downsides at every job I’ve had. Right now I have some major upsides, though:
      * My commute is short (one bus, no transfers)
      * I keep getting unsolicited pay raises and bonuses
      * I find my work intellectually stimulating
      * I get to work with kids but don’t have to grade papers or have parent meetings
      * Occasionally there are “fires” to put out, but we generally have it fairly evenly paced here

      That said, I don’t think there’s any shame in disliking your job and working just for a paycheck. Most people aren’t independently wealthy and so actually need a paycheck to pay rent/mortgage, get groceries, save for retirement, travel, etc.

    8. NeverNicky*

      My current job is the best one I’ve had in a nearly 30 year career (well, I call it a career, that suggests planning and a defined path…)

      How do I tell I’m happy:
      – I have positive things to discuss with my partner at the end of the day
      – I feel fulfilled and that I’m making a difference
      – I’m recognised internally and externally for what I do, so I have some positive strokes
      – I work from home, and I cheerfully manage to get to my desk and don’t procrastinate (well, not much)
      – I’m motivated and proud of what I do
      – I’m not tearful, depressed, subject to low grade pain and headaches on a permanent basis, nor do I stand at the top of my stairs and think “if only I tripped a little bit, I wouldn’t have to go in”
      – I have a manager who manages me in the best style for me (although he could be a bit more generous with his praise at time, but equally if I’ve dropped a clanger, he doesn’t go on about it)

      Would I do this job if I won the lottery tomorrow? Possibly not, but I wouldn’t leave immediately, and as it’s a charity, I’d probably fund some specific projects we don’t currently have the resources for.

      I would say getting to this level of job happiness took a long time coming, and all the various skills I picked up in less than ideal jobs got me to this role at this point.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        I’ve definitely had a job that caused me to hope I would get into a car accident so I would have a “valid excuse” to not come to work for a while. Every job since then has been much better by comparison! Your story makes me hopeful that my “career” will turn out alright, even if it’s not exactly mapped out yet. That first horrible job taught me that I can be content at a job, and that’s enough for me. I just want to avoid misery!

        1. I'd rather be blue*

          I’m glad to know that I’m not the only one who thinks this way. This is a pretty regular thought process for me.

        2. Anonymous72*

          I also had that someone-please-hit-me-but-don’t-kill-me job. I spent evenings sobbing in my corner office, Saturdays obsessively/irrationally worrying about mistakes, and Sundays sobbing on my couch. To get out of it, I jumped into a worse job (I’d worked at the company before, so they didn’t want to call my crazy boss for a reference), burned out, flamed out, walked out – and spent two years unlearning terrible work habits. I’m finally–FINALLY–“officially” back on my feet and caught up to where I’d always wanted to be at this point.

          Those jobs suck. Souls. Life. Everything.

    9. J*

      I’m content. This job isn’t the greatest fit for me, but it’s close enough, I like the people, and it affords me a lifestyle that I enjoy. I left a job that was a perfect fit professionally–loved the people, the job was in my wheelhouse and hit the sweet spot of challenge–but it was a bad fit family-wise. This was a fair trade, and I only regret it in brief moments of frustration when I’m doing more of the things I don’t like to do.

      I don’t need my job to be the be-all, end-all. I have too many other things I want to do with my freetime to want to work a gig that was all-consuming. So this is fine.

    10. KR*

      I love my job! It’s fun, my manager rocks, I love working to make the world a better place (renewables), the pay is good, and I get to travel a modest amount. I think I know I love a job when I don’t dread going there every day, I feel good after a long day, and I don’t have an urge to get high for work or immediately after (I don’t smoke that much any more, don’t worry about me!). I also love a job where I can get stuff DONE. My old job was one where we had constant ongoing projects that never seemed to get done or closed out completely and I never realized how much it annoyed and demoralized me until I got here and I can get projects done and closed out and not worry about them anymore. I also love a job where I don’t deal with customers or Needy Employees. I have to get my stuff done and I am the customer, so I’m not bending over backwards for rude or clueless people for the sake of Customer Service. I can for the most part choose not to work with someone or a company if I want to. I love that.

    11. Temperance*

      I actually love my job. I work in law firm pro bono, which is admittedly a niche industry, but I get to help people while having the fancy resources of a big money firm. It’s awesome.

    12. Deloris Van Cartier*

      I have a feeling that I’m one of those people who may never be truly happy in a job. I think a lot of this has to do with my anxiety and how I process things but even in jobs I’m excited about, there is always something that stresses me out/makes me unhappy. I just get weighed down by the not great things in a job. My technique is to focus on and remember the things that I do like about my job so when I’m feeling really awful, I do remind myself there are benefits to this job. Right now, it’s the schedule and flexibility and possibly building some skills. Sometimes I wonder if I’m just in the wrong field but I’ve worked in volunteer management for the last 6 years so I’m not really sure where else to go or what other fields I’d do well in.

      1. Mimmy*

        Hi, are you me? I think I’m the same way. I keep meaning to make a list of the pros and cons of my current job – great idea.

        1. Deloris Van Cartier*

          Glad to know I’m not alone! Sometimes I feel so down about that (which doesn’t help to feel already down about my job) because I don’t want to feel unhappy and so stressed about stuff that isn’t probably that bad. I’ve found having that list helps and finding something outside of work that makes me feel creatively fulfilled helps balance out the anxiety of my job.

      2. Koko*

        Another approach you might try is remembering the things you like *outside* of your job. All jobs get stressful at times…if you didn’t get stressed out from time to time you’d honestly probably be in a job that didn’t challenge you enough and you’d find it interminably boring.

        I also have anxiety/depression and for me, I love my job because even if it stresses me out sometimes, it’s a low enough level of stress that I can mostly refuse to let it taint my general mood. It’s not perfect – there are times when I have to work late or I get urgent “something is on fire!” emails after-hours that I have to drop what I’m doing to extinguish, and that does impact my mood those weeks. But most of the time if I’m stressing about something at work, I check my stress at the door on the way out, and then I go home and cuddle with my pets and watch my favorite show on Hulu and eat some delicious nachos and you know, that’s a pretty good life notwithstanding the stress I was dealing with at work that day.

        So it’s a little of both – it’s part my job not being *overly* stressful, but it’s also part coping skills I’ve learned in therapy so that I don’t let things that bother me, bother me more than they need to. Being able to emotionally let go of things that don’t need to be dwelling on or caring about. Dwelling is just a negative and unproductive thought pattern you need to break. Wellbutrin also helps with that.

    13. ThatGirl*

      I’m sure part of it is still the newness, but I’m really enjoying my job right now.

      There are less-fun parts, of course. People can be aggravating, our bureaucracy is a bit ridiculous, and sometimes it’s hard to get answers I need.

      But it’s a fun company to work for, in general. We had cupcake-decorating classes yesterday as part of the workday. I really enjoy helping people. I am being paid fairly. I like my manager a lot and most of my coworkers. The benefits are really solid. And my commute is a vast improvement over my last job.

      In general, office atmosphere has a lot to do with it. Job responsibilities is another big chunk, and I’m finding a nice blend of “everyday tasks that I can do a little mindlessly” with “larger projects that are more fun and challenging”. I get to research, I get to write, I get to help people…it’s a good fit.

      1. Happy Gauge*

        That sounds like a dream job to me! What do you do that involves research, writing, and cupcake decorating?

        1. ThatGirl*

          My exact job doesn’t *usually* involve cupcake decorating, that was just a bonus yesterday :) But I work at a major household brand that makes baking supplies and uh, teaches decorating.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I enjoyed Exjob until it changed. I was left alone to do my work, most of it was work I liked and had actual ability for, and the pay was good/benefits good. Though if I’d had a chance to move into doing the document work exclusively instead of being an admin, I would have jumped at it. Or, you know, lottery or best-selling books with scads of money rolling in, either of which I have an equal chance of achieving! :P

    15. Jadelyn*

      I’m…mostly happy. I work with a team of people I genuinely like and respect and 99% of the time I feel that’s returned (we all have our moments otherwise, of course); my work is varied day-to-day which is critically important for me to not go utterly batshit crazy; I have opportunities to learn new skills and am valued for the unique skills I bring and have developed since being here; I have a high degree of flexibility in my schedule despite being an hourly employee; most of the time I enjoy the challenge of the work I’m doing, although sometimes certain tasks can be more tedious than pleasantly stimulating; and I love that I work at a nonprofit whose mission I can believe in.

      The big downside tbh is the pay and the fact that for over a year now I’ve been doing a job a couple levels above my current title, and despite there being “plans” to restructure and reclassify me into a more appropriate title and role, it keeps getting kicked down the road and I’m really getting sick of that. My team values me at a personal level; I don’t feel like the organization does in any meaningful way, or at least they’re not willing to show it. I had to fight tooth and nail to get my position priced in the first place after they converted me from temp to regular but kept me at the temp pay, and even when they finally did it they lowballed me on salary. So while I am mostly happy in my job, the resentment from being lowballed on pay and the constant postponement of reclassifying my job to reflect what I’m actually doing, and my overall feeling of being taken for granted by the organization, is growing to the point where I’m almost ready to move on.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Pay is a big issue. I found myself in a career I hadn’t anticipated in part because we didn’t any career planning advice in high school. (My kingdom to have had some career advice then!) I’m well-suited for the work I do now, I generally do it well, and it contributes to the general good. But sweet bippity, the pay is so low that it can be really demoralizing. I work in teapot manufacturing and my friends who work in teapot painting are so much more financially secure, have more disposable income, and have been saving for retirement for years. There are some months I’m still paycheck to paycheck and just started saving for retirement his year, and I’m close to 40. It’s frustrating to have a terminal degree and such low pay, and it makes those stressful days seem like it’s not at all worth it. I try to remember all the good things about my job, but fairer pay would certainly make me much, much happier.

    16. Blue Anne*

      I’m pretty happy at my current job. My colleagues are okay, and a year in, I’m starting to work well with the bosses and know most of the things about what I should be doing. I’m trusted to manage my own workload. I’m getting into a routine with a lot of the tasks and it’s satisfying to be able to power through a big pile of work without asking too many questions. Plus it’s ten minutes from home, I’m learning a ton and I get free bagels and diet coke. :)

      I just wish it paid another $5/hour.

    17. JN*

      I like what I do, the people here, my boss, the city, the friends I’ve made here. I can leave work at work, unlike my previous career field. What I don’t like is the paycheck–and why I’m looking for something better. Leaving will be hard, because the only reason why I’m looking is the less-than-ideal salary.

    18. D.W.*

      I’m pretty dissatisfied with my job. I was on a certain career path (with a separate option in my head) throughout college, and a gap year between undergrad and graduate school affirmed that the option in the back of my head was the way to go, but getting into that field has been such a huge challenge. After my gap year I was able to secure a fellowship in my desired field, but was not able to secure full-time employment. So I went back to my trained discipline.

      While I totally believe the work I do is needed and incredibly useful, I find absolutely zero fulfillment in it. I find myself day-dreaming of all the things I’d rather be doing. Leaving is the highlight of my day. Don’t even ask me how my day was! I do not like discussing work and never have anything positive to say about my work day. It’s literally just a job. It pays very well and have great benefits. That being said, I do enjoy a few people in the office, but I can’t wait to get out of here.

    19. Oryx*

      I’ve had previous jobs where I would literally be crying while making breakfast because of how much I did NOT want to have to go into work. So, it’s a low bar but I pretty much gauge work happiness by that metric.

      That said, I’m actually excited to go to my job everyday so I’ve swung from one end of the spectrum to the other.

    20. DDJ*

      I’m definitely in a place of being content to put in my hours and get my paycheque. But that’s because I have non-work things that I’m passionate about, and having a job allows me to have stability and financial security, which, as someone who suffers from both depression and anxiety, is important.

      I wouldn’t say that I’m unhappy. But I’m not jumping out of bed every morning. Although with my industry being very hard-hit the last few years, morale has been really low, and that’s definitely had an impact on things. But we’re working on it! And I’m…excited about the possibilities? And the opportunities that might arise.

      But I’ve always thought of jobs pragmatically. Largely because of my Dad. How many people go to work every day doing something they love that they’re passionate about? How hard do they work and how much do they have to go through to get there? That’s fine for some people, but for me, a job is a job. It always will be.

      I like my company and my coworkers and my bosses. I think we’re going in a really good direction. Who knows, maybe I WILL become one of those “jump out of bed, excited to go to work” people. But I’m ok if I never do.

      The only job I absolutely loved and was excited to go to every day was working as a bartender at a small town bar. I could work six days a week (and sometimes did) and STILL feel excited about it. But I was young and didn’t have a mortgage or car payments or adult responsibilities. If I was making $400/week, that was fine. So maybe it was more just being youthful and having a job that was super fun, I don’t know. Someday I’d like to do it again. If I won the lottery (which would be tough, considering I don’t play the lottery), I think I’d stay at my current job, but I MIGHT be temped to quit and get back into tending bar.

    21. Specialk9*

      I adore my job.

      I love the mission of helping people in a really tangible way, that’s the biggest thing. I love feeling competent, and the satisfaction of putting out high quality products. I love being able to lose myself in my work.
      I love that I’ve worked myself up to a point of getting to manage my own program how I like. I like my co-workers, mostly, and respect the heck out of my manager.

      That said, like every job mine has *lots* of boring stuff and I also can’t wait to go home many days. If I were to win the lottery, I think there’s a reasonable chance I’d still want to do my job, but only part time and remotely.

      That said, manager and co-workers make such a difference. This same exact job for/with other people who were difficult was not fun.

    22. Mimmy*

      Eh – I’m not entirely thrilled with my job, but I’m in a slightly better place than I was before; at least now I’m not on the verge of crying or a panic attack. What I’m doing is not what I envision myself doing long-term, but at least I get to meet a variety of students (I’m an instructor for adults who are blind or visually impaired) and several have expressed gratitude for what I’ve taught them. Plus, my supervisor has been very understanding whenever I’m late due to paratransit because she uses it too (as do several other staff).

      Will I ever find a job that truly makes me happy? I hope so. While I am gaining valuable experience in my current job, I’m not using the skills and knowledge that I’d like to. I know that no job is 100% perfect, but I feel like I’m chasing an elusive dream of feeling like I’m truly where I should be.

    23. Fishcakes*

      I strongly dislike my job. I feel trapped because the market isn’t great (it took me over a year to land this gig). I don’t feel valued at work at all. My boss doesn’t talk to me and I’m the last to know when something is happening in the office. My colleagues think my work is easy (graphic design and writing mostly) and tattle on me when I work in unconventional ways (i.e., researching, sketching). We have serious spyware monitoring our every move. All non-management staff are treated like unprofessional idiots. Us lowly staff have a bunch of ridiculous rules we have to follow, which of course management doesn’t (i.e., nothing allowed on our desks, not even a photo of our families). New rules and computer restrictions are constantly introduced, sometimes I can’t even do my work because a new piece of restrictive software won’t allow me to write simple code or even log into our CMS. Then it takes days and a lot of condescending comments and quizzing from IT in order to get it fixed (actually example: “well why are you even allowed to write code?”). I can’t even let loose with my co-workers, as they’re very reserved, much older than me, and not into joking around.

      Anyway. I know I’m happy at work when I feel connected to the team and feel proud of our accomplishments. And if I don’t dread going in.

    24. Koko*

      I tell people all the time that I love my job and it’s the best one I’ve ever had. But on a daily basis I don’t really feel jazzed about 90% of my work.

      Every now and then I get to do some fun projects that I genuinely enjoy, but the work itself is not really what I love about the job. I love it because I work with talented and kind people and I’m well-compensated in both salary and benefits. I love it because I can work a flexible schedule. I love it because I’m good at it and I know it, which is great for my self-esteem. I love it because feeling stressed out or overworked is the exception and not the norm.

      For me, that is everything I’m looking for in a job. Not that I will love the work, but that I will love the job as a whole package.

    25. mooocow*

      My job is pretty neat. I get to work in my chosen field with excellent salary and benefits, and a company culture that suits me well – very informal, but still focused, very collaborative, I mostly get to set my own hours, I can just be myself without sticking out, because really, almost everyone who works here is a bit weird (but in a nice way!). My commute is a 15-20 minute bike ride, 90% of which is through parks.

      The biggest downside is that the job is way more technical that I’d like it to be (I would prefer a higher proportion of research), and that the sheer amount of different skills and knowledge required to do the job can be pretty overwhelming (I’m 4 months in and just about feeling like I’m getting the hang of things). Then again, I switched to this job because my last job was boring the hell out of me, so I guess I got what I asked for.

      The biggest perk: I get to spend 10% of my paid work hours for pursuing my own professional development. As long as it’s vaguely related to my field, what I do is entirely my choice. Plus, I get to do that at home – to me, it feels like an extra day off every 2 weeks, because my chosen projects are interesting enough that I would spend free time on them anyway. Except the fact that it’s work is a good motivating factor to get me to stay at it.

      I used to define myself very much through my work (used to work in academia), but nowadays I’m a bit ‘meh’ about work in general, so even though the job is an excellent fit, it’s not like I jump out of bed in the morning and can’t wait to get there. If I won the lottery, I would probably stay in the field, volunteering a bit for some good cause, and maybe getting back into research for the fun of it. But there’s also a decent chance I’d use that lottery money to buy an old farmhouse and focus most of my time on gardening, renovating, and organizing social events.

    26. Snargulfuss*

      I’d always prefer a day off to going into work, but I do enjoy my job. I have a lot of autonomy, I’m appreciated, and I get to work on interesting projects. Some days are too dull and some are too busy, but there are frequent spans when I really enjoy what I do. I’d love to be earning another $10-20K annually, but I like the stability and 9-5ness of my job.

    27. Windchime*

      I’m happy with my current job. My last job gave me a nervous breakdown — I couldn’t sleep, I was anxious all the time, and I cried constantly. I had to take a 2 month break for anxiety and cried when I had to go back. I’ve been in this job for a year, and I have cried about work exactly zero times. The commute is no fun, but other than that it is perfect. The people are nice; the environment is great (windows! Overlooking a beautiful street in Seattle!), and the work is satisfying. Not super challenging, but not horrifically boring either.

      There is something to be said about going to a work environment where there are no negative undertones and no nasty gossip and backbiting. If I have to work (and I do), I’m glad it’s at this job.

      1. qwertyuiop*

        +1 At old toxic job, I would cry on my way to and from work, throw up in the mornings, etc. I haven’t done that at my current job. It isn’t exactly perfect, but the commute is a lot nicer and my co-workers are too. There still is that clique-y office vibe, but my boss is funny and the woman that I work with is a hoot!

    28. Frankly*

      My job is super stressful and I wouldn’t really say that I “like it.

      What I like is knowing that I can do the hard parts of my job. I can put out any fire; I can wrest control away from an incompetent project manager; I can wear anyone down with my reason and determination; I can take on that new role and figure out that new process!

      So I guess maybe I don’t look or sound happy from the outside, but I’m getting a lot of good feels out of my job and I’m looking to grow in it, not find something easier.

    29. Drew*

      I enjoy about 50% of the work I do, and the other 50% is necessary to get the first 50% done so I’m willing to put in the time. I am frankly WAY overcompensated for what I’m doing, which is certainly playing its part in keeping me anchored here. And I do like most of my coworkers, most of the time.

      All that said, I would be a lot happier if we would clear out all the dysfunctional management that’s standing in the way of us doing way more than we’re doing now. The company has decades of accumulated worst practices and stultifying “legacy code” that are keeping us from being the efficient engine we ought to be, and it stems from the top. I keep hoping we’ll get bought out just so someone will come through and scrape off a lot of the barnacles that need removing.

      Realistically, I should be looking around right now, but I know I’m very unlikely to find another job in my field that pays nearly this well, and for a variety of reasons I need the paycheck for the next year or two, at least.

      Summary: love some of the work, like most of the people, actively hate the office and the BS it puts us through, probably wouldn’t still be here if it weren’t for the paycheck.

    30. Workaholic*

      I worked 3 months in a photography studio before. Not a “dream job” because i made just over minimum wage. But i had so much fun. It was the first boss to ever give me the freedom to run with my love of learning, and let me do everything i learned. The position was typically a one person 40 hours a week sometimes needs help getting work done on time. I was able to do my job, finish on time or early with no help, and assist 3 other departments at the same time. After my first day – i said to myself “i can’t believe they’re paying me to have this much fun!” (I also said that to the owner on my last day).

      My current job doesn’t make me as happy as the photography studio. But so far every boss I’ve had here has been open to letting me learn, grow, multitask and help with anything i know how to do even if it’s “not my job”. between the type work i do, and the freedom to expand and push myself, it feeds my workaholic tendencies.

      So I’d say I’m fairly happy where i am. Not ready to move on to greater and brighter, shiny new experiences yet. Happier than most of my working life, Though not as fun as the studio.

  9. Discordia Angel Jones*

    Hey Open Thread!

    I have a question for anyone involved in academic recruiting.

    My husband is applying for PhD programs in the US – we are from the UK. If he gets invited to a face-to-face interview, how likely is it that the university will pay to fly him out for it?

    I’m asking because hopefully he will be asked for interviews at several colleges and we wouldn’t be able to afford to pay for multiple trips for interviews (possibly not even for one, we aren’t exactly well off as we have been living on a single income for years now).

    Any advice or answers would be appreciated!

    1. Blank*

      That’ll depend on how rich the university is – a former flatmate was flown across the continent for a long weekend (large, well-known private university) and full-on wooed. I went in the other direction (North America to Europe) and made do with phone interviews.

      Best of luck to your husband!

    2. No gifts*

      To some extent it depends on the discipline/how in-demand he is, but in my experience most places won’t pay to fly most people in (but might find you free accommodations if you ask)

    3. Simone R*

      Everything is different with different disciplines, but generally in the sciences they pay for people’s flights within the US. I got all of my flights/hotels/food that went with interviews paid for. However, this wasn’t true for international students-they usually were just offered a skype interview. You could always ask-they may be willing to pay for part of it, or if there are 2 programs with interview dates close by, one program would probably pay for the flight from the US interview to them.

      However, my friends applying to humanities programs generally didn’t interview, and had to pay for their own flights to the visit weekends.

      Hopes this helps!

    4. Barbara in Swampeast*

      In the US, “applying for Phd programs” means your husband is applying to be a student to earn a PhD. Is that what you mean? If it is, in-person interviews are rare. Decisions on admission to programs are usually just based on the application.

      2. Snark*

        Uh….no. In fact, it’s the diametric opposite, in my experience. In every department I’ve been a part of or interacted with, the application was a formality, and you were in if your adviser wanted you in. At best, it’ll depend on field, but she should expect her husband to interview in person with advisers with whom he might be working.

        Hell, I never even took the bio GRE and got accepted by my department because my adviser said, “yeah, so accept this guy.”

        1. nosy nelly*

          Hey I’m not arguing against the fact that the application is a formality, but interviews in person are super common. In fact, I posted about the know-your-PI-before-you-join-a-grad-program thing on the gumption post earlier this week. Totally agree with your concept *except* the idea that interviews in person don’t happen (I went on seven myself).

        2. Portia*

          In humanities programs, the admissions process focuses less on the advisor-student relationship, so the application is more important — but every program I applied to still had either in-person interviews, or an in-person accepted-student weekend, where you talked to potential advisors. In both cases, the universities paid for applicants’ flights and lodging, but I don’t know about international students.

      3. Yorick*

        It’s unusual in my social science field to have interviews for PhD positions. They often have a recruitment event, but that’s not mandatory and is sometimes after being accepted to the program.

      4. PhD Student*

        Just want to add my two cents that the application process for Ph.D. programs in the U.S. is very field dependent. As others have said, admission to Humanities programs is not as closely tied to the advisor-student relationship and the elements of your application definitely matter (although they should definitely mention professors in the department whose work overlaps with or connects with yours). That said, my understanding is that programs across the disciplines will typically NOT provide funds for international students to travel to the campus. If they do interviews, international students will typically do a phone interview or video conference.

    5. Andy*

      Hi! Admin in a US state university here!
      We are a mid range state university and for professorial interviews there would be a debate as to cost effectiveness of cross-pond flight, for PhD candidates I don’t know of a single program that would have the funds to fly students over for interviews. If his program is tech heavy and he has industry funding for his thesis project it’s a slight possibility.
      The more likely option for the school would be to have interviews via skype.

    6. Discordia Angel Jones*

      Thanks for replies so far!

      Yes, he’s applying to be a PhD student.

      I sort of thought that he would have skype (or similar) interviews, but one of his prospective supervisors mentioned face to face and that threw us.

      He’s in a STEM field, and has great academic experience in a field which just won a Nobel, if it is of any use to anyone.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        My partner is a PhD student in a high-demand field (I suppose it is considered STEM, but I never think of it that way), and he only had one interview that I can recall; it was for a program where they were on the fence about him and wanted to meet to discuss his qualifications. That one was in the city where we were living, so it was pretty easy. I doubt they would have flown him in for it. Skype is probably the most-used option, especially if the university is looking at transatlantic candidates.

      2. Mad Woman*

        Alright, Husband gave me the downlow. For context, he is at a very large research university on the East Coast that has one of the most notable departments for his discipline.

        They didn’t do in-person interviews for their intl students, only Skype with their potential advisor and a few other grad students. Cost and visa issues came into play. But there are several in his research group and many in his department, so it clearly didn’t affect their offers.

      3. London Engineer*

        My sister had a postdoc position in the US in a STEM field coming from the UK and she had her expenses paid for the interviews. However the costs were shared between the different institutions, so that she interviewed at a few different places on the trip. I don’t know exactly how this was organised but it might be an option if dates line up. Flights are the most expensive part so hopefully it should help.

      4. Amadeo*

        There are perhaps some others with more admissions experience, but I worked briefly for a math department and one of my side tasks was assisting with grad student admissions. Our grad director for the department never did interviews. The applications required two or three statements (at least an academic/research statement and a bio/personal statement) in addition to all of the usual things, like transcripts, recommendations from other instructors and so on.

        Nobody got interviewed before an offer of admission was extended.

      5. As Close As Breakfast*

        When I was applying for PhD programs in STEM (engineering) none of the schools did interviews. After acceptance though, every school had a ‘prospective student’ weekend. The power dynamic sort of flip flops at that point and now the departments are trying to convince you to come to their program. Each school, from coast to coast, paid for my flight and put me up in (sometimes very nice) hotels. It was all domestic travel, but I know some of the flight options I took were certainly not cheap.

      6. Jessica*

        Humanities grad student married to a engineering grad student. Neither one of us had any interviews before we were accepted. My department has a welcome/recruitment weekend for admitted students, and students were reimbursed for travel expenses. I was actually in Spain for the year when I got accepted and decided it wasn’t worth the hassle of traveling, but I know we have had students come from abroad just for the recruitment weekend. Like “As Close As Breakfast” wrote below, the dynamic sort of changes once you’re accepted. He could get in touch with grad students attending the universities he’s applying to and ask them what their experience was like, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that 1) he’d be able to visit campus after being admitted but before committing to attend and 2) that the university might fund all or part of that travel.

      7. TL -*

        Nobel prizes tend to lag behind the times and schools don’t tend to make financial exceptions for applicants anyways.
        In my field (molecular biology and adjacent medical research), your flights/hotels are paid for usually up to a certain amount, and the majority of interviews will be held in the same three to five weekends in January/February. A group of applicants comes out Friday, meets the profs, meets the other students, do some one on one, go out on the town Friday night, do more interviews, ect. Saturday, then head home Sunday.

    7. Mad Woman*

      My husband was flown out to all of the schools he applied to for his Masters/PhD. They covered transportation, food, lodging, etc. Only a couple of them had a cap on how much he could spend transportation-wise; the rest arranged travel for him. We’re in the US, but many of the schools weren’t near super big airports and he was coming from a small airport, so I can’t imagine it was cheap.

      He is also in a STEM field, which to my knowledge traditionally does this type of thing for students. It may be different for the humanities.

      The only fluke would be that you’re so far away they won’t pay or can only pay some. But if he’s a very competitive student, I wouldn’t say it’s a no-go.

    8. nosy nelly*

      Not sure about from the UK, but I flew to domestic PhD interviews at cost of the inviting school, across distances up to 1900 miles as the crow flies. So I would guess yes? But also if they won’t pay for the trip they will likely offer a Skype interview option rather than force you to spend your own money.

    9. persimmon*

      In my discipline, any interviews would be Skype/phone, and many departments don’t interview at all. He would likely be invited to visit if admitted, without funding or with not much. This isn’t mandatory but it is definitely valuable since this is a big decision. If possible, I would plan one US trip in mid or late March to see all the possibilities. If not, plan on a lot of phone chats during this time–and make sure to reach out to current students as well as the potential advisors.

    10. sugarplum*

      Totally depends on the program and the kind of resources they have for graduate recruitment. I interviewed with one program (in the social sciences) that was happy to reimburse domestic airfare, but one of my cohortmates was, at the time of our interviews, living abroad and they did not pay for her to come to the interview in person. Another program in the same field, within 100 miles of the previous location, did not pay for travel. So it’s a totally mixed bag. If they are unable to reimburse for travel, and you are unable to pay for travel, they will likely work with you regardless, like requesting Skype interviews or something instead of requiring you to be there in-person. It’s also *somewhat* less common for some STEM fields to interview in-person at all, though that depends on the specific field.

    11. Bye Academia*

      I got my PhD in chemistry and a lot of my friends went on to PhDs in biology. Not sure which STEM field your husband is in, but it varies by specific major and institution.

      In my experience, the chemistry programs will accept/deny based on applications, and then have a visiting/recruitment weekend for accepted students. They would claim to pay for travel expenses. Free hotel, and reimbursement for flights up to anywhere from $350-$600. I ended up having to eat some of the cost at some of the institutions, but going to the visits helped me decide where to attend so it was worth it to me. And the visits weren’t required, so I could have skipped them if finances were a dealbreaker.

      In biology, my understanding is that they hold similar visits but they are indeed interviews. Most (but not all) are accepted. Again, they institution will usually pay for flights up to a certain limit.

      Regardless, it doesn’t hurt for him to apply and see what happens. If they do require an interview, they very well may pay for some/all of the travel expenses or allow for Skype interviews instead for overseas applicants. You can cross that bridge when you get there.

    12. Nye*

      Depends a lot on the school and to a lesser extent, the field. I’m in Biology, and private top-tier universities do pay for prospective students to visit. This is usually a group visit either for short-listed students prior to acceptances (e.g. Stanford), or for accepted students who are deciding which school to attend (e.g. MIT). Many public universities, even very good ones, can’t afford this. If your husband is in high demand in a lucrative field, he might get a prospective advisor who’s willing to fly him in for a visit, but this is more unusual.

    13. Turkletina*

      In my field, it’s common for the university to pay a set amount toward flight costs. Usually, it’s enough to cover a domestic round-trip flight, but it’s likely that your husband would need to pay for the ticket himself and be reimbursed, say, $300 by the institution. I don’t know how normal this is, but in my small field, graduate coordinators are very willing to work with each other to collectively cover travel costs. (Let’s say Berkeley pays for one leg of the trip and one of their grad students volunteers to drive you to Stanford, where you have an interview the next day. Then maybe a grad student at Stanford will have a couch for you to stay on and Stanford will pay for another leg of the trip.)

    14. Thursday Next*

      Currently I’m a PhD student in a STEM field. Everywhere (R1 public universities) I applied to payed for 100% of transportation and housing.
      Schools will usually allow potential students to come during non-interview weekends, if they have a conflict with the schools official weekend. Maybe your husband can arrange to do one 2-3 week US visit to see all the schools he gets interviews at? I’m sure a department would be willing to reimburse some amount of a flight cost if you’re able to buy tickets up front. Not to mention there’s a big difference in ticket cost if you’re flying from, say, London to NYC vs San Francisco. I just looked online and midweek RT tickets from London to NYC are as low as $400 – that’s cheaper than many domestic RT flights in the US that I’ve been on. I’m on the west coast and it can easily cost $500 round trip to fly to the midwest.
      If you can arrange a visit (I assume your husband would only need a generic tourist visa for a short trip to the US) I would prioritize the schools he’s most interested in and I would try and visit if possible. So much of your PhD experience depends not only on the PI but on the people around you – the other people in your lab, in you program and in your department in general.

    15. AcademiaNut*

      I’m in a smallish STEM field with good funding. It would be incredibly rare for someone to be flown in internationally for a PhD program application, and rare for domestic applications, unless the person is very close or incredibly good.

      But generally the departments understand this. They’re not expecting an undergrad to pay for an international trip to check out the department, although they’d welcome you if you happened to be in the area. Interviews would probably be done by Skype, although possibly at an odd hour to accommodate time zones.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Oh, and in my field international students are very common – I’d say 1/3 of my Canadian grad school program consisted of international students. So it’s something they’re used to dealing with. I was accepted (domestically) into the program without a visit, for that matter.

  10. Fabulous*

    Finally got my annual review yesterday. The end of the fiscal year was July 1st. Anyone else have dawdling managers?

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        Part of my job is tracking peoples annual reviews. We have one person who hasn’t had one in 6 years. At this point we’re not sure if it’s that the manager doesn’t want to do it, or if the employee is actively avoiding it!

      2. College Career Counselor*

        I haven’t gotten a review since I’ve been at my current job (4+ years). Before that, I had an annual review (that was a joke of a process for a lot of reasons, particularly because in my experience, evaluation is largely uncoupled from pay in administrative higher education) at the previous job, never had an annual review in the 8 years in the job before that (although I gave them to people who reported to me) and only had them sporadically in the previous jobs I had.

        Honestly, I don’t really miss it because I have regular contact with my supervisors and other people who know my work. The place I had annual reviews? Was the worst-managed division I’ve ever encountered. And the division head would routinely send back evaluations to department heads to be LOWERED, when this person had no real idea of their performance.

    2. beanie beans*

      I got mine in September (supposed to be done by March). It was 100% copy and pasted from the notes that I had emailed in January on my accomplishments. Lack of full sentences and everything.

    4. Michelle*

      Ours is supposed to be done by March 15th. We get the email the first week of Jan. Very rarely is ours completed by March 15th. We are actually so busy with work and ours is 9 pages long. No kidding.

      First we have a “cover” page with our name, title, department, hire date, today’s date, manager’s name, etc. Then we have to write about our goals from last year, how we achieved them or why we didn’t, etc. Then new goals (at least 2 professional and “voluntary” personal, at least 1. Then another couple of pages where your supervisor jots down how they think you did and what you could improve on. We don’t get merit raises for a good reviews, either.

    5. Nan*

      I’ve been here 9.5 years and still haven’t had my 90 day review :) but I’ve had all my annuals on time. Ours come along with pay increases, and managers have to have them done before increases hit checks or corporate throws a fit.

      1. Fabulous*

        Ours come with pay increases too. My pay increased months ago, but the actual 1:1 took f o r e v e r to schedule.

    6. Lady Dedlock*

      I just got mine. We’re supposed to do them in June, and I didn’t get one at all last year. Better late than never?

    7. Perse's Mom*

      They’re swapping ours to quarterly ‘check-ins’ now. And changing the rating definitions – used to be it amounted to Not Great, Fine, or Great! and now it reads more like Not Great, Fine to Great, or The Business Would Literally Fail and Spontaneously Burst Into Flame Without You. Which just… seems like a way to limit raises because those of us who keep the machine chugging along can be absolutely fantastic at what we do but we’re never going to be seen as mission critical like Sales or the people clients talk to directly.

    8. Chelle*

      We’re technically supposed to have quarterly reviews at my job, but my manager is not great with that kind of thing. I remind him around my annual remark that “hey, it’s probably time for a review for me, can we do it during this one-to-one in two weeks?”

      Mostly I’m not expecting any new feedback to come out of it as we have a huge feedback culture, but rather, we do stack ranking which directly determines raises, and the rankings for my role happen shortly after my “anniversary” date. So I want to make sure my annual accomplishments are fresh in his mind :)

    9. Madeleine Matilda*

      In government we have to do them and do them on time – both an annual review and a mid-year.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        I work in a mid-sized private company, and doing them annually and on time is non-optional. I would be written up and dinged on my review for refusing to comply. I suspect the current director of HR would fire me, actually.

    10. Jennifer*

      Still haven’t done mine yet (due…. June?), but I’m not gonna remind anyone and since the Big Boss left I don’t think any reminding is going to happen. I got told I’d get “meets expectations” and since the last few I had didn’t, I’m good with that.

    11. A. Non.*

      Oh man do I have a story about this.

      So technically I was promoted: Teapot Historian I to Teapot Historian II, right? Only there’s no such thing as “promotions” where I am, apparently it’s a new job, that you have to apply for, interview for, and be reviewed for in the same way. So it’s 30-60-90-yearly, every single time. It makes me want to scream. :|

  11. Sophia*

    This week I noticed one of my employees was reading this website. Now I’m a little paranoid she’s searching for a new job.

    (Yeah I know there’s nothing I can do about it if that’s the case, but can’t stop over-reading into everything she says now…)

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion she’s looking for a job. Maybe she’s reading it for the awesome advice that covers everything from job searching , dealing with crappy managers and coworkers, etc. That’s why I read it.

    2. Banana in Pajamas*

      I would assume most people that read AAM AREN’T job searching. Clearly, you’re on AAM and it sounds like you aren’t job searching since you’re fearful of losing a current employee. I wouldn’t read into anything. :)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah — this isn’t a job searching advice site in particular. It’s one of the things I talk about here, but it’s only a subset of a much broader slate of topics.

        1. MoinMoin*

          My only thought would be that I thought you said most people find this site searching for cover letters (that’s how I found it as well), so if she recently discovered it, it’s fair to assume that may have been the avenue. Come for the cover letters, stay for the Chanukkah balls.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Hmmm, I don’t think I’ve ever said quite that. It’s true that a lot of people come to the site by searching for job-searching info, but I don’t know if it’s “most” or not. (I think it’s not?) But also, there are about 1.1 million first-time visits to this site every month. So even if, say, 60% of those were from job searchers, that’s still 400,000 first-time visits per month from people who found it a different way! (Plus, even if she did originally find it because of job searching, that could have been before she came to work for the OP.)

          2. copy run start*

            I DID find this site from searching for cover letter help!* I was looking for my first professional job and stayed because I found the advice really valuable after I got the job. I feel like it’s helped me become a better employee/coworker faster than I would’ve on my own.

            *So far my cover letter success record after finding this site is 3/3!

      2. Sophia*

        Oh yes believe me I feel like a total hypocrite to feel this way, but…paranoia is never rational.

      3. Naruto*

        Job search aside, I read AAM in part because management is so crappy at my current firm. I want to, I don’t know, reaffirm in my own mind that certain things aren’t normal, professional, useful, or healthy; and remind myself that there are good bosses out there, etc.

    3. NASA*

      Yeah, I’ve been reading AAM for 7 years or so and been at this job for 5+ years…def not looking for a job anytime soon :)

    4. Some sort of Management Consultant*

      I read it several times a day, and I’m quite satisfied where I am right now! I just think it’s interesting!

      1. Specialk9*

        Exactly. I can’t read Dear Prudence, Savage Love, or Captain Awkward at work. (Without worrying about triggering an awkward keyword that puts my computer under scrutiny.) So I read AAM at work.

    6. Fabulous*

      I’ve been reading for 2 or 3 years now. While I have job searched during that time (that’s actually how I found the site) I’m not now, I just like reading the posts!

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been reading this site for years… haven’t been looking for a job… for years. I’m not currently looking for a job, but I’m posting here now.

    10. But you don't have an accent*

      I told my boss about AAM! I was explaining to him my philosophy on reviews and ratings, and he was impressed and I said reading this site had helped me understand a lot more about them :)

      1. Dave Wheeler*

        Maybe she’s just taking a Gander at it . I know that’s a goose but typing DUCK !!! wasn’t funny enough.

      2. Dave Wheeler*

        Maybe she’s just taking a Gander at it. I know that’s a goose but just typing DUCK!!!! wasn’t funny enough.

    13. SoCalHR*

      I’d be more worried she is experiencing some weird/bad situation at work and looking for advice, job searching would not be the thing to pop into my head based on the majority of what this site is focused on (not to make you MORE paranoid Sophia). But, the Ghosting Guy’s article got a lot of press and reached over into Buzzfeed/facebook, so maybe more people are interested in this blog and its funny stories for entertainment value, cuz let’s face it, some of these are REALLY entertaining!

    14. Madeleine Matilda*

      Since you are worried about her leaving I assume that means she is a valued employee you want to keep. Why don’t you meet with her and ask her how she feels about her work, how you can support her career development goals, etc. As her manager you are in a position to let her know she is valued and to do what you can to support her so she doesn’t want to leave.

    15. MoinMoin*

      I keep this site up most of the day to read off an on while doing tedious tasks. I worry people might see it and think that, but it’s more that it fills that niche that’s interesting and still “professional” so not quite surfing or being construed as completely off-task.

    16. DDJ*

      I read this site pretty regularly so I can be better at my current job because I want to stay :) If that helps you at all. Maybe she originally started reading back when she was applying for the position she currently has, and now she reads it for entertainment, or to get insight into how people function in a professional setting. Finding out what kinds of things are normal and which are red flags, that sort of thing.

      I read is mostly for entertainment, and mostly to help me be the best at my job that I can be. I do manage people, and I’ve gained a lot of insight through reading the column.

    17. Purple snowdrop*

      I read the site every day, I’ve been at my job 2.5 years and I’m certainly not job hunting.

    18. Samiratou*

      Another reader not looking for a new job.

      Though I did read a bunch of stuff on resumes & cover letters, and asked in an open thread about cover letters when applying for a management position under your current manager, who you’ve worked with for 15 years.

      But not job hunting in the regular sense, though my husband has been unemployed for awhile and I’ve been passing on useful bits.

    19. Epsilon Delta*

      Ha! My boss saw me reading the site and asked me in a very concerned way if I was happy at my job. I got all flustered and was like, “oh yes, this is just a work advice site, she posts all kinds of interesting articles beyond job search stuff, like (scrolling) well this one is about a guy using chewing tobacco at work, ok um (scrolling) and this one is about breakups, erm (scrolling), (scrolling), all kinds of stuff really!!!” In my head: I swear this is useful lunchime reading!

    21. JamieS*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. She’s probably just looking for advice on how to handle a paranoid employer. I kid. I kid.

    22. Not So NewReader*

      If she is searching for a new job then it is what it is.
      However she could just want to be a more informed employee.
      If you can’t shake off the fear then ask her how things are going for her, ask her if she has everything she needs to do her job and remind her that you are available if she needs something. OTH, you could tell her that you enjoy reading AAM, too and you are happy to see her reading it, also. Sometimes the very thing we don’t want to do is exactly what to do.

    23. buttercup*

      I read this site all the time and I’m no longer job searching thanks to reading this site. I now read it for the wacko stories people write in about their work places! Also, people write in here for other types of work advice besides job searching (like what to do if a coworker smells or something.)

      My guess is that a lot of people discover this site while Googling job advice (which is how I found out about it), but stay for the entertainment. This is the most popular site that pops up whenever I Google anything job related. Alison gives more nuanced advice than most of the cookie-cutter job advice columns and sites out there.

    24. Gen. John Kelly, Sr*

      I’ve been reading it a lot lately. Helpful stuff here.

      “Sophia,” if you’re my boss, I assure you I intend to stay. Do you want me to call another press conference?

  12. constipated accountant*

    How do you respond to someone on your team resigning when you really wanted them to leave? It seems like the general response when someone resigns is “oh no, how sad, we’ll miss you so much” but this is someone who I’ve hated working with and who was awful at their job. I know a simple “best of luck in your future endeavors” is probably best, but I’m wondering if it’s ever appropriate to tell someone that it’s for the best that they’re leaving.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I would leave it at some polite well wishes. I don’t think there’s a reason to say that it’s best they’re leaving unless there’s some really compelling reason to do so.

      I’ve been happy about several direct reports leaving and I just wish them well and thank them for their contributions over the years.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        “I wish you the best at XYZ Industries.” Which is true! You sure as hell don’t want them at YOUR company on YOUR team.

    2. Malibu Stacey*

      The only reason I could imagine to tell someone it’s a good idea if they are leaving is if they asked for your opinion (which probably wouldn’t happen if they’ve already resigned), and even then I wouldn’t really say anything unless pressed, and then something vague like, “I think the less deadline heavy environment at [your new job] is probably a better fit for you.”

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        My last boss told me she wasn’t surprised I’d decided to leave, because I’d been “unhappy and very negative” and then went on to say it had been affecting her as well as the entire team. Nice. I fully acknowledge that I’m not an automatic ray of 24/7 sunshine. But I refused to bend over and say thank you with a big smile on my face every time someone crapped all over me. In her book, that’s being too negative. I didn’t even bother to respond. If that’s what she needed to tell herself to make herself feel better, I really didn’t care.

    3. Jukeboxx32*

      Lol, I’m actually on the opposite end of this as an employee who hated their job and was drove batty by their coworkers. At my farewell party yesterday my boss gave a little speech before the cake was cut and asked if anyone else had parting words for me… After about 2 seconds of silence I chimed in with a jokey “That’s ok, I’m just here for the cake!”. Problem solved, we ate cake and everyone split off into their own little cliques to talk, with minimal grilling/crying over me. I did not ask for a farewell party, and I’m planning on spending as little time at my desk (today is my last day) as possible to avoid all the fake “we’ll miss you’s”! because I literally can’t, I’ll jab a fork in someones eye if they try and hug me. In a nutshell, just don’t say anything. They probably won’t notice or care.

      1. Liane*

        “I’ll jab a fork in someones eye if they try and hug me.”
        So you kept the cake fork, just in case?

        Good luck at your new endeavor and glad to see you’re leaving an unpleasant job.

    4. Mazzy*

      This would be one of the few situations where I’d be overly polite. Nothing bad will come out of pretending that you’re going to miss them a lot and that the office is going to be dull without them. The “best of luck with future endeavors” to someone you see every day seems a little curt.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      I bring in donuts they day after their last day.
      I also wish them well in their future endeavors.

    7. Been there*

      Agreed, I’ve have a few employees leave over the years that honestly I had to suppress an audible ‘Thank God!” when they handed me their resignation letter.

      I generally go with the, “Good luck, I hope that you’ll be happy in your new role, now let’s talk about the transition plan”

      I’m sure that I came across as cold and unfeeling to a few, but honestly they were the employees that fell into the just north of tolerable category and we both new things weren’t working out. I had two employees that fell into this category and I had inherited them. Apparently my predecessor gave them glowing reviews but he also did all of their work for them (I wish I had a quarter that first year in the position for every time I heard from them “Oh, I don’t know how to do that Fergus always took care of it/did it/wouldn’t let me do it”. Ughh these were in reference to me asking my Tea Pot Inventory Coordinator to reconcile our Tea Pot inventory, so core duties.

    8. fposte*

      I can’t really see any situation where it would be a useful addition. It’s never appropriate when it’s in response to their performance problems or if it’s somebody you don’t like. It could be appropriate when your best work buddy at your tanking company gets a great job job elsewhere before you do, but it’s also pretty superfluous.

      It can be absolutely true and still be a bad thing to say.

    9. hbc*

      Unless you guys were openly enemies or something, just say the nicest thing you can pull off sincerely. “Sounds like a great opportunity for you, congratulations!” Or “Wow, it’s hard to imagine things without you here.” You can leave unsaid the part that it’s a great opportunity to make someone else’s life miserable or that you’re trying to imagine how much better it will be.

      But I also consider “You’ll be missed” as a pleasantry equivalent with “Nice to meet you”–the actual words mean nothing about your feelings, it’s just a thing you say.

      1. Been there*

        So open to interpretation :)

        I like to take the work/performance out of the equation in these cases. Generally speaking I have no issues with the individual, so it’s easy to focus on the personal ‘You’re going to be missed’ because on a personal level they usually will be vs. ‘Woohoo now maybe I’ll finally get that weekly teapot report on time without having to remind someone’ lackluster performance

      2. Anon for this one*

        One of my former co-workers (who I worked with on a specific project every month) was unceremoniously canned and walked out one Friday after work. She messaged me later on that evening to let me know what had happened, and I agreed with her that it was a terrible way to be treated, after so many years.
        The following Monday it felt like a pall had been lifted from the office. I had never realized how stressed out working with her had been. The office was never the same without her (thankfully!).

    11. Fenchurch*

      Yeah, as an employee who moved internally a few weeks ago I can weigh in. The one person I did not get along with actively avoided me the last couple of weeks after I announced I was moving on. It was blissful. I wish I had told her I was leaving sooner so I wouldn’t have to deal with her! So don’t sweat it. It’s pretty likely this is a win/win for both of you.

    12. Lemon Zinger*

      Of course it’s not okay to say “It’s best that you’re leaving.” Come on.

      My dreadful coworker left a few months ago and I was genuinely happy for her because the new role was a much better fit. I said stuff like “I’m so excited for you! I know you’ll be great as XXX. What are you looking forward to most?”

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I put it under the category of too little and too late, to tell them anything if they are leaving.
      Where I live it would be normal to run into this person in the grocery store at random intervals. Don’t end this in a place where one of you has to hide in the canned food aisle. Wrap it up, set it in a peaceful place, even if you don’t want to and move on.

      1. Drew*

        Adding that “canned food aisle” line to my list of useful life wisdom. Brilliant.

        One of my former bosses once responded to a not-going-to-be-missed employee’s resignation with, “You know, you have some vacation saved up. Why not go ahead and use it?” Not sure if the “we’ll have a better transition the shorter it is” message was conveyed or not, but the resigning coworker was gone that afternoon, and there was much rejoicing.

  13. The Other Dawn*

    I had a weird thung happen yesterday and I’m not sure if I’m right to be a bit annoyed by it.

    I’m on a business trip for a three day conference. It’s run by the vendor that provides the application we use in my department. The day before the conference I met an attendee (a man; I’m a woman) who is from state that borders my own. We talked a lot about business. Turned out we had a similar career background and are one week apart in age. He mentioned that he’s not using the software to its full potential due to lack of time and resources. Been there, done that! I came away wanting to help him since I’ve been using it for awhile and have a good system in place. We also talked a little bit about personal stuff. He told me about his wife and kids, and i told him about my husband and cats. All in all, it was a casual conversation by the gardens.

    I saw him at the conference yesterday and we chatted for a minute. I got my seat in the conference room, then grabbed a business card and went outside the room to give it to him. I told him, “I wanted to give this to you in case you ever want to chat about X software or Y topic related to X software. If you ever have any questions feel free to contact me.” He smiled and said sometjing like “no that’s ok. Thanks anyway.” It didn’t register with me so I chatted another minute or so. Just basically asking when he’s flying out since we’re in the same region. He then mentioned the woman standing next to him was flying out to the same airport as I am. He then said that he should give her the business card and pushed it into her hand. She looked a bit confused since she hadn’t met me and had no idea who I was. It didn’t register with me again (I’m so oblivious sometimes). I said goodbye and I went into the conference room and sat down.

    As I’m sitting there, I realized that he openly rejected my offer to help him out and be a resource. And on top of that he have my business card away in front of me. The more I thought about it, the more rude and bizarre it seemed. If he didn’t feel he needed or wanted a contact who might help him out down the road, why not just politely take the card and then toss it later?

    My sole intent was to help someone out, as I’ve been in the position of having few resources and a mountain of work that needs to get done somehow, as well as having a system that needs to be figured out in order to be used to its full potential and processes that need to be created; it can seem like an insurmountable task. The only conclusion I can come to, other than him just being rude, is that he thought I was hitting on him (a friend suggested that as a possibility). But I said nothing that would indicate anything other than a desire to be a contact and possible resource. I didn’t touch him or anything like that.

    Anyway, I have no plans to track him down through the software application (there’s a community page). If he thought I was hitting on him then he will likely think I’m creeping on him or something.

    1. Chupalupe*

      I’d chalk it up to a weird thing on his side. I’m in a field where people give me their business cards all the time unsolicited. I smile, take it, and throw it away next time I’m cleaning out my wallet.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      He was rude. You’ve every right to be annoyed. It’s his loss as it sounds like you could have been a big help.

    3. 4 Pete's Sake*

      Me too, I think he thought you were hitting on him. I suppose we should be all “good boy” that he didn’t take you up on your misperceived offer, but for Pete’s sake men, having a business-related conversation does not mean we want to see your boners. We mostly never want to see them.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Samantha Bee did a P*nis PSA the other day and she said “Sorry to break this to you, but…..your d!ck is ugly. No one wants to see it. In ANY context.” I laughed until I cried!

      2. Specialk9*

        I actually think that he was the one with lustful thoughts. If he was just a Mike Pence “get thee behind me Jezebel” type, they wouldn’t have talked at such length about business, with birthday and spouse detours. Because that conversation happened, instead of him shutting it down initially (as it would Pence-style, or if she was perceived as flirty), I think he may have been having lusty thoughts that he feels guilty about.

        OR his wife is jealous and snoops through his card and grills him about who he met.

        It’s some theories – you’ll note they are about him and not you. Let this weird, very very very rude person just be a funny story.

    4. The Other Dawn*

      Also, I’m not a vendor looking for business. I’m simply a peer. We’re in the same position at our respective companies. Not sure if that makes a difference. I generally don’t give my card out unless someone asks for it.

    5. Grits McGee*

      That’s so weird! I also got the impression based on his reaction that he was suuuuper awkwardly rejecting to a (perceived) romantic overture,* but then that makes him giving your business card to a complete stranger even weirder.

      *Also bananas that he might have thought he was being hit on.

    6. nosy nelly*

      I am going to open a different line of thought than the other commenters–is there any chance he thought you had a sales pitch in the wings? I can imagine some conference attendees being very averse to seeming interested in a contact or conversation that would end in an attempt to make a sale, even of the professional kind.

    7. Myrin*

      Reading this all nicely condensed and story-like, I immediately came to the same conclusion as your friend. Still quite bizarre and borderline rude of him, though, since, like you say, it sounds like a situation he could’ve smoothed over very nicely by simply being polite.

      (And I actually have the opposite problem from you – I constantly worry that people think I’m flirting with them. It hasn’t actually happened that often in the past but it was very embarrassing nonetheless. I get where it comes from – I’m a very cheerful and exuberant person – but I still dislike that some people immediately seem to equate “person is laughing and being friendly with me” = “person is hitting on me”.)

    8. fposte*

      Yeah, either he thought you were hitting on him or he, for Mike Pence-y type reasons or whatever, limits his contact with women. Don’t worry about it.

    9. Jules the Third*

      He’s very probably one of those men who can’t eat lunch with a woman alone lest he be seen as sinning.

      I second the ‘he thought you were hitting on him’, despite your perfectly appropriate and professional behavior. There’s a lot of risk around that kind of interaction, for both genders, and he may be feeling particularly risk averse right now, especially with the current Weinstein frenzy. It’s completely dominated my news feed.

    10. Stop That Goat*

      I’m going to fall on the ‘he thought you were hitting on him’ side and that was his way of trying to politely signal his lack of interest and/or end the conversation. It sounds like it was a misinterpretation of your intentions. May be annoying but if he truly felt you were hitting on him and he wasn’t interested, I can’t fault him for it. I probably would have taken the card and then tried to get away from you if I thought that was the case.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I went the opposite way from what others thought here. I thought he was thinking of hitting on you and decided not to for whatever reason.

      Sometimes all we walk away with was knowing that we were sincere. He had other things running in the background and it looks like he was not sincere. His burden to bear, not yours.

    12. Stellaaaaa*

      Is it possible that he was just BSing you about not using the software due to “lack of time and resources”? Maybe he just doesn’t want to learn how to use it and his business needs don’t require him to. For example, I still have an iPhone 5C. If someone asked me why I didn’t upgrade, I might laugh it off and say, “Ah, I just don’t have the energy to learn how to use newer tech.” In reality, I like my phone and the way I use it. If someone didn’t accept that answer and asked me a few times if they could help me learn how to use a newer phone, I’d feel cornered, like the other person wasn’t getting the hint. At that point (I’m sorry to say), I might resort to a bit of calculated rudeness just to end the conversation. He didn’t want help learning the software. He likely already does have the “time and resources” to learn it but just doesn’t feel like it. He was never going to call you up for a software tutorial. He has people at his own job he can ask if he ever starts caring.

    13. Close Bracket*

      > he thought I was hitting on him (a friend suggested that as a possibility). But I said nothing that would indicate anything other than a desire to be a contact and possible resource.

      Unfortunately, for a certain kind of guy, conversation about software is the equivalent of tearing of your clothes and throwing yourself at him.

    14. Miss Ann Thrope*

      I think you’re overthinking it. He doesn’t have to be Mike Pence- like. He probably thought it was weird you gave him your business card for help re something you both mentioned very briefly the day before and he’s likely awkward (trying to introduce you and make some kind of connection to the person next to him since it seems you didn’t say hi or introduce yourself)

  14. Ling*

    I follow a few baking-related blogs (purely for the pretty pictures, I don’t bake at all), and every now and then the bakers would post a screenshot of a DM or email they receive from people requesting they provide their services (usually an elaborate cake) at some event or another (usually for minor celebrities of Instagram or Youtube fame) for free. The reasoning being that they’ll get exposure because this ‘celebrity’ has X number of followers/subscribers and the value of that exposure is more than the cost of making the cake.

    Is this something that happens regularly? Is there any basis in that argument (i.e. the ‘value of exposure)? It feels a bit like when people are asked to do a free shift as sort of a test but without any definite promise of steady work afterwards.

    1. Academic Escapee*

      My husband is a photographer and it happens to him all the time. He usually responds with something like, “Thanks for the offer, but I can’t pay my electric bill with exposure. If you can guarantee me $X of revenue as a result of providing a free service (which of course, they can’t), I will consider it. Otherwise, I will have to charge you for my services like I do with every other customer.”

    2. Marzipan*

      I have definitely seen posts from people in that line of work about how often they get asked to make free cakes for ‘exposure’ and stating how exploitative they feel it is, and how they don’t feel it would genuinely be of benefit to them. Often they also say they did things like this earlier in their careers before realising it wasn’t worth it.

    3. Snark*

      There’s no value to it. You get exposure whether you’re paid or not, and exposure doesn’t pay the bills. If it’s worth having a cake at your event, it’s worth paying for that cake.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      I used to get asked this all the time as a freelance writer. And I used to tell people that, seeing as they found me, I was exposed enough thanks.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      No, it’s not OK. Just like asking a writer to do an article, a musician to do a gig or a plumber to fix your toilet “for exposure”… no. Just no. If I do work you want, pay me.

    6. Work Wardrobe*

      I sell on Etsy. You would not believe the amount of spam messages sellers get asking for free stuff.

      “I’ll post a pic of me wearing (thing) on Instagram and my millions of followers will see it!”
      “This (thing) matches my daughter’s birthday party color scheme exactly! Send me 3 and I’ll post on my blog where people can buy them!”
      “We’re having an auction for (sad story, 99.9% chance it’s a lie) and if you send us (thing), we’ll print your name in the event program!”

      1. Jules the Third*

        These are all forms of advertisement. Designers do it a lot with, for example, red carpet gown and jewelry. For some people, it does generate sales. You just have to decide the return on investment for you. The Instagram thing – if they really have over 100K followers, my understanding is that their name dropping does generate sales. They should be able to show their account though.

      2. Erin*

        I hate that! It’s such a scam, every creative person has heard the exposure line at least 3 times a year. I’m a painter and I wont paint your nude life size portrait in the style of Ingres Napoleon for free “exposure”. That will take at least $1000 in materials and at least 200 hours of labor. What you want is to commission me for a portrait.
        I am willing to trade for certain service like dental work, or the installation of a new furnace. I’d gladly trade a painting for that. Or else please pay me in cash or PayPal.

    7. Old Cynic*

      Well, it happens a lot in various businesses. I’m a picture framer, both art and mirrors. I can’t tell you the number of times over the 20 years I’ve been doing this that people ask for discounts, or free product, for the exposure. Apparently, their friends will see my frame on the customers wall, will ask who made it, and I will be deluged, yes DELUGED, with business for the rest of my career. I’ll be come rich, rich, rich.

      My dentist, hair stylist, florist, handyman all have the sam experience.

    8. LCL*

      Ahem. To quote my all time favorite rockabilly band, the Hillbilly Hellcats, from their song ‘I hate music’:
      ‘At least it’s exposure,
      that’s what they say.
      But you can die of exposure
      in less than a day.’

    9. J*

      I think creatives in all fields get asked to “do it for the exposure”. And I’m happy to see more and more of them pushing back on it.

      (I also see people pushing back to news outlets online when they ask to use someone’s content for free. Twitter threads will be filled with people advocating for the news outlet to pay for the content and it makes my heart swell.)

    10. Anna*

      I have a LOT of artist friends who get the same line all the time. Some of them are already pretty successful and still people try to pay them in exposure. It’s BS and it happens all the damn time.

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I get asked to write free things all the time, and I get emails from people who want to run their own articles here for free (as opposed to buying a sponsored post). Most of the people who tell me I should do it for “exposure” on their sites have traffic that’s a fraction of the traffic here; it’s bizarre.

      I have started sending back Very Snippy emails.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Here’s one I sent to someone last week:

          Well, no, because I don’t work for free, like most established professionals. And you’re not a charity, where asking for free work might be reasonable.

          Do you not realize that asking people to work for “exposure” has become a widespread joke — that writers get offered that so often that there are entire memes and campaigns against it? (See, for example, this or this or this.)

          I urge you to reconsider. The tide is really turning against your type of business model, and this is going to get you a terrible reputation with any reasonably established writer.

          2. SaraV*

            I initially read your first response as a “Very Snappy” response, so I’m now going to make it a “Snippy-Snappy” response. ;)

      2. Samiratou*

        A legal blogger I follow gets all sorts of solicitations to do “guest posts I know your readers would just love” that have nothing to do with the content of the blog.

        He delights in engaging them on doing a guest post on the perils of ponies, and posts the back & forth on his blog. It’s pretty hilarious.

        3. JamieS*

          It’s obvious to me that legal blogger was never kicked by, thrown from, stomped on, and bitten by a pony. Always remember, a pony is nothing more than a hostile horse with Little Man’s Complex.

      3. many bells down*

        I wonder if you’ve ever seen any of Popehat’s emails to people who want free advertising on his blog. It usually involves a very long diatribe on the dangers of ponies.

    12. hbc*

      I can’t quite figure out the pithy way to say it, but these people should have it pointed out to them that connecting to someone who’s so unsuccessful that they have to beg for free food is probably not a way to gain good exposure.

    13. Construction Safety*

      Well, it takes some gumption to do that (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

      I used to peruse a site for magicians. It happened all the time to them.

    14. AdAgencyChick*

      If you do any kind of work at all that is useful to the general public, someone at some point is going to ask you to do it for “exposure.” Writers get asked to produce free articles, doctors get hit up at parties for medical diagnoses*, graphic designers get asked to do free websites, and so on forever.

      My landlord does not accept exposure as payment, so neither do I.

      *One of my favorite Miss Manners columns of all time mentioned that a doctor who kept getting asked for medical advice at social gatherings would respond with, “Certainly. Please take off your clothes.”

      1. Laura*

        I’m well known in my field and regularly get hobbyists trying to ride my coattails, ask me to promote their work for free, etc etc. Without fail, these people have never done anything to push a project of mine, and are hugely surprised when I ask if they have.

        And that reminds me to email the startup magazine that asked me to write something for them without mentioning a fee, and ask them what they’re planning to pay me if I accept. I am already assuming that they will say they’re on a tight budget and can’t afford to pay contributors and want me to do it for the exposure. But since I’m much better known than they are…

      2. puzzld*

        Librarian here. We get asked all sorts of odd questions at weird times. Sometimes I answer them… other times I suggest they zip me an email or drop by when I’m at work, or even contact the xyz library as they’d be more able to answer this particular question (or their doctor, lawyer, landscaper) and some of them get all snifty. “You’re a librarian, you’re supposed to answer questions!!! ” But not 24/7. Seriously.

        1. Drew*

          Oh, dear silly person, “Here’s where you can find that information” IS an answer.

          It’s just not the answer you wanted.

      3. Troutwaxer*

        I’ve often thought that people who are asked to work for “exposure” should immediately hand the person who expects this a $100.00 bill for “time wasted.”

    15. Fiennes*

      Almost certainly “exposure” is worthless. The only contexts where I could see it working for a baker might be some large charity function, where your gorgeous cake and a sign identifying you as the baker would be on display to hundreds or thousands of local rich people. Plus maybe there’s a way to count it as a donation on your taxes.

      Otherwise: no.

      1. Laura*

        The clue is that none of these people who ask are working for free for ‘exposure’ themselves…!

        1. Boötes*

          +10000000

          So, unreasonable-request-maker, how much exposure are you getting an hour? How’s that workin for ya?

    17. Gwen*

      I mean, there definitely can be value in exposure, there’s a reason that brands are dying to throw free product at influencers, but I would say as a general rule, if you have to ask to be given the free thing, you aren’t at the level where you do actually provide any value.

    18. Nerdling*

      It happens so often there’s a Twitter account for it that posts multiple times daily with different instances of it. (@forexposure_txt, if you’re interested.)

      It’s also almost always baloney peddled by someone too cheap to pay for someone else’s labor. Incredibly rarely does this work turn into anything positive.

    19. Sled dog mama*

      FWIW I wonder how many of these requests come from someone like the PTA at my daughter’s school who seems to think that the way to get items for the annual silent auction is to ask EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS in town for a donation.
      How about we notice that the ones we actually get donations from are a) kids stores or b) ones that a parent knows the owner or c) owned by an alum or parents of an alum.
      Makes me so angry that each member is required to send out a certain number of solicitations, how about I’ll just buy a gift card to the bakery instead of us sending them a form letter for the 15th year in a row and getting nothing them we’ll all be happy. Business owner gets business, PTA gets auction proceeds and I don’t feel bad for asking a business owner to donate.

    20. OperaArt*

      I sometimes work as an actor and have an IMDB page, even though in my day job I’m a software engineer. The “for exposure” thing is a constant irritant and joke in the acting community.
      Sure, I’ll be in your local appliance store commercial, and could you give me one of those refrigerators for free. I’ll show it to all my guests! It’ll be great exposure for you.

      And then the shoots where everyone except the actors get paid…Sheesh.

    21. Engineer Girl*

      My favorite was the bloggers asking for a free meal in exchange for exposure on their blog. The irony? The restaurant already had a Michelin star! Nope, don’t need the “exposure”.

    22. Bryce*

      “Exposure kills people” is the unofficial pun-motto of a lot of people in creative professions.

    23. Close Bracket*

      > every now and then the bakers would post a screenshot of a DM or email they receive from people requesting they provide their services (usually an elaborate cake) at some event or another (usually for minor celebrities of Instagram or Youtube fame) for free The reasoning being that they’ll get exposure because this ‘celebrity’ has X number of followers/subscribers and the value of that exposure is more than the cost of making the cake.

      For some celebrities, the value of the exposure is high enough to charge for it. Yep, this is a thing. The cost can run into five figures.

    24. Tiny Crankypants*

      I did an internship at a lifestyle magazine for free. It was a fairly famous brand, and they banked on how established their name was to persuade interns to work for free, hinting that it would land them more opportunities. While it was true, it was one of my first early career mistakes. On hindsight, I shouldn’t have done it as it deprived for of money and savings that I needed.

      Nowadays, if anyone asks me to work for free, I ask how much they’re willing to pay. That usually shuts them up.

    25. SureWhyNotSigh*

      I’ve been a visual artist for 40 years.

      People only value things when they pay the going rate for them.

      I’ve donated items for charity auctions and fund raisers here and there. Different deal altogether.

      I get loons who want freebees all.the.time. The few times I did it “for exposure” was a massive mistake. The person burned up more of my time trying to micromanage me, and was generally a PITA.

      Never under price yourself. If you are a professional, charge the professional rate and let the grifters go prey on some other poor soul.

      I have friends who own a party planning business aimed mostly for children’s birthdays. People try low ball the all the time when it comes to face painting and ballon twisting. “You leave your cards out at the party.” That’s instead of paying for the talent for painting 15 kids faces (high end designs), balloon twisting and party games for 4 hours.

      They had one insane mom who thought snap chatting and Instagraming the party was more than enough payment because it was *exposure* They didn’t take that job.

      UGH!

  15. Susan K*

    Does anybody have a good system for remembering to follow up with people?

    I have an incredibly hard time with getting people to respond to my e-mails. I will often reach a point in my projects where I need information, a decision, or action from someone else before I can proceed. These are usually not things the other person can answer on the spot, so I make the requests by e-mail. Once I request the information/decision/action, I mentally move the project to the back burner and move on to something else while I wait for a response. Weeks or months will go by, and I’ll realize I never heard back from the other person, and the project has been at a standstill for way longer than I planned.

    I want to be more proactive in following up with people, but I am juggling so many things that it’s hard to keep track of what I need from whom. I usually keep notes about these requests in the project files, but I need a system to remind me to follow up when I inevitably don’t get a response. If anybody has a system for this, what do you use? A spreadsheet? Calendar reminders?

    Also, how often do you keep asking when you don’t get a response, and how many times do you ask before you start CC-ing the person’s manager? If you are waiting for responses for multiple things from the same person, do you follow up about them individually, or use a digest format with a list of things you still need from that person (like my immediate manager, who has ignored at least half a dozen things I have requested over the past couple of months)?

    1. Monsters of Men*

      Do you use Gmail? You can turn those stars into other symbols. When I need to follow-up with someone, I *star* the email into a red exclamation point. When they’ve replied, I *star* it into a green checkmark. If you go under “starred” it all shows up there, which I find handy.

      1. Susan K*

        No, we use Outlook… Outlook has features to flag for follow-up or add a category to a message, so I could do something like that. Do you look at all your stars on a regular basis (like once a week or something) to see what you need to follow up on again?

        2. Lucille B.*

          In Outlook, I like making a “To-Do” Category and maybe a “To-Do – URGENT” Category. Then sort by category in your inbox so those are at the top for you.

        3. a-no*

          You can set reminders on the flags so it reminds you on the date (and time!) you specified it to in outlook. Just right click over the flag and select ‘add a reminder’. I find it pretty handy that if i need to follow up in a week it reminds me to do it, and you can just click the flag to remove it if you get a response sooner

          1. DDJ*

            This works really well for me! I didn’t really start using the “add a reminder” feature until recently, but it’s awesome for something where it’s like “I know I need to follow-up on this, but probably not for a week or two.” Set the reminder, it pops up when it becomes relevant again. It’s so, SO handy.

          2. BF50*

            This is what I do. That or I go to New Items, and I create a new task, with a reminder and attache the email to the task. That is better for when you might want to include multiple emails in one task, write notes for yourself about what you are supposed to do, or if you want to attach an additional document like a spreadsheet or a PDF.

            Occasionally, I will turn the email into a calendar event so that a specific time is also blocked off.

        4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          I flag my emails with the date that I want to respond. They go a pale red instead of the bright red if you right click and select a date. Then I place them in a follow up folder that I check daily and have sorted by due date. So every morning, I check my follow up folder and follow up on the ones at the top (you could sort them however you want and just look for the regular red color on the flags since they change back to the bright red when they are due). For my work, I will usually follow up once a week and I will only copy their manager if it must be answered by a certain date/time and I’m getting no response.

        5. Specialk9*

          The flag in Outlook has the option to pop up a reminder for you and/or the people to whom you email. So say in 1 or 2 weeks at 11 am. I use that all the time for myself (hey, go follow up on this task, self), and very sparingly for others. It feels a bit strong with others, so I’d think through hierarchy and personality first.

          I also write status reports using my sent mail and calendar to jog my memory. Sometimes that reminds me of that pending thing to do.

        6. DaniCalifornia*

          I use the Outlook flags. You can set them by right clicking and making them for a date. I usually delete mail in my inbox that’s done with. But if I need to follow up with them, I make it ‘past due’ and it turns red. So then I have a red email in my box until it’s done.

      2. AliceBD*

        Outlook flags turn into tasks that you can give due dates to, so you get reminded in a week or whenever that you haven’t heard back from them.

        You can also use categories — I turned the blue color into “waiting to hear back” so I can easily make a list of things I am waiting to hear back from coworkers/their divisions on. This means when I do have a meeting with the coworker it is easier to filter to make sure I ask them about all outstanding requests.

    3. Fabulous*

      I like using my (Outlook) email inbox to track follow ups. I have like 20+ folders that sort all incoming emails so only the important ones actually hit my inbox. I use different category colors to show what I need to follow up on and what my action items are. If you’re sending an email you need to follow up on, CC yourself so it hits your inbox too so you can manage it with the categories.

    4. Deloris Van Cartier*

      Not sure if they have boomerang for outlook but I find that a super helpful tool. You can set it up where an email will come back in your mailbox at a certain date or time. I use this a lot for volunteers who want to volunteer for a project that is 6 months down the line. I know I’ll probably forget to email them in 4 months so I boomerang their email so it comes back in my inbox and it’s a great way to not lose track of that kind of thing.

      1. Erika22*

        I second Boomerang! It also has the ability to notify you if an email hasn’t been replied to within a certain time, so if you send an email to someone and they don’t reply within, say, a week, it will remind you that they haven’t replied and you can reach out again.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I specialize in annoying people by remembering they haven’t responded to an email and following up to check on it. I do it by having a folder in my email called “waiting for” and every time I send an email where I care about getting a response, I drag the sent message into that folder. I then go through that folder once or twice a week and remove anything that’s already been answered — and follow up on anything that has waited too long.

      3. RG*

        I remember reading that, but here’s my question – what do you do for non-email conversations with people that prefer other communication methods? Like if you never respond to emails but text back immediately, then yeah I’ll start using text. How would you keep track then, just the jumble of text and to do lists?

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, this.
        Some of my stuff does not come in email, nor is it on the computer. I have a set of paper sorters and one slot is “waiting for reply”. I take everything out and go through it regularly, usually at the beginning of my work day. This gives people all day to answer.

    6. KR*

      I like to make a note of when I call or email someone and I make a reminder for myself to follow up with that person. I usually give them a week to respond to me unless it’s urgent, because lord knows I’ve taken two weeks to answer a single question before due to my own scatterbrainness. Then I increase to every couple of days, or try to find someone else in the company to contact to ask what I should do to get a hold of this person, which is usually the kick in the pants they need.

    7. Madeleine Matilda*

      In Outlook in my inbox I set up a folder called Action. Within it I have subfolders for different projects. When I need to follow up on an email, I drag the email into the appropriate subfolder. I usually review those emails a couple times a week, send follow ups as needed, and delete or file in another folder when completed. So I don’t forget to review the emails, I have blocked 15 minutes on my calendar twice a week for the review.

    8. LKW*

      I actually go through my sent mail every so often. I can’t go through everything but it helps with follow up. you could create a folder for waiting on follow up and then just move your sent items into that folder. Review once a week or so and then just reforward the message with a gentle or not so gentle reminder.

      L

    9. crookedfinger*

      I turn those emails into Tasks in Outlook and make sure I set follow-up dates with a pop-up reminder. I don’t turn off the flag until the thing is 100% completed. Every week or two I’ll go through the list and revisit things I haven’t heard back about or get rid of ones I forgot to clear when finished. I also keep a physical list on a notepad for backburner projects I don’t want to forget about.

    10. HMM*

      If you’re using Google, they have an alternative setup to their email called Google Inbox. It’s designed primarily for people who want to get to inbox zero everyday, and has a scheduling feature, where you can clear an email/task item from your inbox until a scheduled date that you pick. On that date, it pops right back up in your inbox. I use it to remind myself to follow up with folks all the time. It’s extremely useful.

    11. Workaholic*

      I can’t wait to read the responses on this!

      At work i have recently started adding follow up “appointments” to my desktop calendar. It’s working better than any other system I’ve tried before

  16. Rincat*

    Has anyone ever used FlexJobs before? What has been your experience? My sister is looking for some part time/freelance WFH jobs and is considering signing up for it. Are there any other good resources for finding telecommuting jobs? Thanks!

    1. beanie beans*

      I signed up for their 3 month subscription and really like the site. It seems like they have a ton of jobs posted. Unfortunately I’ve only applied for a couple of positions from it and my 3 months are almost up. But I’m probably in a field where telecommute jobs are going to be slow to pop up there.

    3. AudreyParker*

      I subscribe but have yet to apply for anything. I’d say she should look at the postings before signing up (you can browse without paying, just won’t get the company specifics) to get a good idea of what’s posted. I’ve found much of what’s there has very specific requirements, so it’s not exactly a free-for-all – i.e. copy editor with a PhD in Biology, or telecommute but must be able to come into the office in Boise once a week etc. I think it’s very much a YMMV thing. But they’re primarily an aggregator, so still seem like a legitimate option for finding work that is specifically advertised as flexible in some way. I have yet to find anything better with that focus.

  17. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    Our grandboss has decided he wants our team name to be changed. We’re currently Business Support. We do general admin for our department, procurement, and financial stuff. Essentially we support the business…
    I understand the desire to change the name as the previous team with the same name had a reputation for gossip and drinking tea. Our current team are all energetic and eager, and there are plans to make our team a central ‘hub’ of admin rather than the current set up of each team having their own admin. So in a few months we’ll be bigger and a central point for any admin/business service.
    Grandboss wants something like ‘Enablement Team’, but I am not a fan (I feel ‘Enable’ is negative) –we’ve been asked to think of other potential names to bring to our next meeting.
    So anyone have any good suggestions? As I’m coming up blank and if we don’t get a better idea we’re gonna end up the Enablement Team!!

    1. Rincat*

      Business Success Team
      Strategic Success Team
      Business Solutions Team

      These sound horribly jargony but that’s all I got. :)

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          “Operations” is what immediately jumped to my mind too. I would go with “Business Operations Department”

    3. Seal*

      Right now you’re technically the BS team (Business Support). Doesn’t every organization need a BS team?

      1. Mm Hmm*

        Ha. I once worked on the same floor as a dept that was moving to another bldg. One guy was labeling all his boxes “analytical BS.” Made me chuckle every time I walked past.

      2. CAA*

        My DH once got assigned to the “NSF” team, so of course they spent a lot of time trying to come up with a new name that could acronym to “NSFW”.

      3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Yes, but the BS team is usually called Marketing or Public Relations.

      4. Office Gumby*

        Last year our company merged our Information Technology Services with our Business Services department. Chose not to change the names as they’re was the possibility of us being unmerged.

        For the past year we’ve been known as ITS/BS.

        1. DDJ*

          I second Business Services. I currently work in “Business Services” and our work is very, VERY similar to what RDoR has detailed above.

    7. Jadelyn*

      My org has an “Admin Services” team for that kind of stuff. Maybe “Central Administration” to reflect the consolidation?

    8. periwinkle*

      I’ll echo the suggestion for “Business Services.” If the name change is to make a clean break from the old sullied name, “Shared Services” is another good one (my org uses that name for the function supports the other functions).

      Ugh to “Enablement Team.” Our division has a new VP who is simply slathered in Awesome Sauce. When the division directors and senior management met with her, one director proudly announced that their team’s vision was to enable and facilitate. The VP’s response was along the lines of: “I don’t want you to enable other people, I want YOU actually DO something.” (the senior manager who relayed the story did not identify the director but damn, we knew exactly who it was and there was much giggling)

    9. Fenchurch*

      Haha that reminds me of a suggestive name they wanted to give the team I left. “Servicing”. Just that.

      It was also a call center position. I cannot say the word “servicing” without giggling because I am apparently 12.

    13. blackcat*

      Ugh, I have no suggestions (there are good ones here!), but the “Enablement Team” sounds like where you go if you want to continue to be an addict. Sorta like the opposite of AA. No. Just no.

  18. Max*

    A submission from yesterday’s ask-the-readers (re gumption) post mentioned using an image from an LotR doujinshi as their resume background, which made me laugh and cringe at the same time (totally used to collect those things!). So got me wondering, has anyone ever referenced something fandom-related in their applications? Whether it be something you tried to sneak in under the radar (for your own amusement?) or something you openly used in the belief (whether correct or otherwise) that would help your case?

    1. Anony McAnonface*

      I was an author in a fanthology which I totally put in. But I did not say what it was an anthology for, just that one of my short stories was part of an indie publication.

    2. Berry*

      I volunteered for a fandom based organization for a few years and at this point I still keep it on my resume. My work there was relevant to the positions I’m looking for now (think copywriting for them to copywriting jobs), but it’s also a good opportunity for a talking point. I’ve had a couple of interviewers bring it up before in a positive/curious manner and it helps me see into the office culture too. (I think of it like that AAM letter from some time back about the person who used to work at an adult store letting that position help employers screen for a cultural fit, but in a more PG way.)

    3. Fiennes*

      Last week I met with an exec I’m hoping to work with soon, and we spent a solid 15 minutes talking about how Martha Jones is a totally underrated companion. We bonded. Then again, I work in geeky industries.

      1. Kvothe*

        Unrelated but kinda on the same thread, at my last job I was working away in my cubicle and I suddenly hear the tardis materializing noise (aka parking brake on) so I peek my head over the cubicle wall and ask why he’s playing the tardis noise and apparently he had it set to his ringtone for years and nobody in an engineering office knew what it was!! FOR YEARS! So he made this deal that the first person to figure it out would get a fancy Starbucks drink on him which I thoroughly enjoyed :)

    4. Amadeo*

      Well, it wasn’t in my application, but I’ve got a Really Nice(TM) lightsaber necklace I got from Kay and wore it to my interview for this current job.

      I’m pretty sure it was the final ticky mark on the checklist for me getting the job.

    5. anon for this one*

      something you tried to sneak in under the radar (for your own amusement?)

      Not on an application, but I have hidden fandom references in my work. Nothing blatant or distracting, just people in case studies who share first or last names with fandom characters.

  19. Monsters of Men*

    8:30 to 4:30 vs 9:00 to 5:00? Thoughts, stories, comments? For reference, I am in a city of about a million, my commute is strictly on a 100km/h freeway, and I do not have any extraneous responsibilities like children pickups/busses to catch/etc.

    1. YetAnotherFed*

      On the one hand, I prefer the later shift as there’s less traffic to deal with. On the other hand, working later can be difficult in terms of getting public transit home.

    2. Banana in Pajamas*

      I work 7:30-4:30 with a required hour lunch break. The earlier start, the better. I’d start earlier if I could in order to get off earlier. I don’t have any extraneous responsibilities, either, but the traffic is better earlier in the day, and I like having time to do things like go to the gym and walk the dog before having to make dinner and wind down for the following work day.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        That’s my working hours, though my lunch break isn’t technically required. I can also come in earlier/later as needed. The traffic is sooo much better at those times. And so is the grocery store!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Those are your two choices? I’d try out both of them, then, to see which faces worse traffic. It might also depend on whether you like to sleep in or not. Some people are not “morning people” and could use even the extra half hour.

    4. Snickerdoodle*

      My previous job had shifts, and at one time or another, I worked both the 8-4 and the 9-5. I didn’t really have a strong preference for one over the other. They both allowed me to make appointments without taking time off, though it was sorta nice to sleep in a bit with the 9AM start time. But it was also nice getting off an hour before all the local traffic tended to start up when I started at 8AM.

    6. Cristina in England*

      If you can actually get out earlier, great, but in some workplaces that would just mean that you’d work longer days, especially if others aren’t on that same schedule and ask you for stuff right at 4:15.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Yeaaahhhhh… I was working 8:30-5:30 once. Got a promotion, but the role was 8-5pm instead. I figured ok, cool, no problem. Then it turned out that I typically ended up working 8-7pm (and the role wasn’t exempt even though it prob should have been). I was pretty bitter about that.

        Then… I’m interviewing for a new role. It’s 9-6pm. I was talking to my parents about it and my mom was asked if was sure I wanted to be working that late. I was like – I’ll be working at least as late (or maybe a little less late) than I previously was, but at least I’ll get to sleep in an extra hour every morning. Sounds like a win to me!

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          Oh and as to preference – in an ideal world I’d love to have a job that I could be truly flexible in its start time so that I could do 8-4pm sometimes or 9:30-5:30pm sometimes (like if I wanted to sleep in a bit). I know this isn’t really unicorn level rarity, but for some reason I keep ending up with places that seem to pretty far on the rigid (and not necessarily warranted rigidity, imo) end when it comes to hours/WFH, etc…

    7. Work Wardrobe*

      I’m 7:30-4:30 and love it. The commute is easier at both those times, and I get home 5 and have a nice, long evening.

      Plus, my body clock wakes me up ridiculously early anyway…

      1. KR*

        Also love! Almost the entire company is on the east coast and I’m in CA so I get an excuse to work early and the afternoons are very quiet for me because everyone is already home.

    11. Mike R*

      I give my employees the flexibility to choose their own hours, as long as they are in the office for the same amount of time. Shifts range from 7-3, 8-4 all the way to 11-7.

      We schedule team meetings between 11 and 3, taking into consideration everyone’s lunch, and it usually seems to work. Customer facing employees are present during our public business hours, and for the most part this seems to work for everyone. I’ve never had a problem with employees being late, or needed to leave early as I always did at my previous company, where managers were required to enforce strict business hours. Employees seem happy and more productive, and the ones who arrive earlier or stay later seem to get more done during the quieter hours at the start or end of their day.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      I worked 8:30 to 4:30 at Exjob so I could avoid the worst of rush hour traffic. I skipped a lunch hour (it’s not mandated here in MO) and just ate while working. If I had nothing urgent, I’d read AAM or something while I ate and respond to emails as they came in.
      For me, it’s slightly easier to get to work a little bit later. I probably wouldn’t mind working until 5:30 since I no longer have a cat to feed, but I wouldn’t want to go any later than that. If you have an actual choice, I guess it depends on how long or aggravating your commute is, and when the best/worst times are.

    13. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I’d always pick earlier, assuming the traffic doesn’t get worse by doing that. I hate getting up early, but it’s overruled by my love of getting home earlier.

    15. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      At OldJob I was 8-4. Loved leaving work at 4pm because traffic was fairly light. Currently I’m 7:30-5. Love the 7:30 because there is hardly any traffic in the morning. My bus flies down the avenue

    16. Epsilon Delta*

      All things being equal (commute, when other people in your office are there/expect you to be there, etc) it really comes down to personal preference. Do you prefer to sleep in a bit or get home earlier? Are you most productive in the morning or afternoon?

      We have a similar flex-time option at work, and I switched from 8-4 to 9-5 when I started doing AM school drop offs two years ago. I have to tell you I do not like it (and I am not a morning person). Reasons: People have been waiting for me to get to work so they can ask me questions, but I’m still sorting through all the emails they sent earlier in the morning and trying to plan out my day, I feel more tired when I get home (even though it’s the same number of hours at work, it’s an hour later in the day), and I generally feel like I have less time after work is done. It is however worth saving $100 per week in before-school childcare, but sounds like that doesn’t apply to you!

  20. Penelope*

    This might be a weird thing to be hung up on, but does it ever annoy anyone when a character from a TV series (or any other form of media) is praised for being really fantastic at their job even though it’s never shown how that’s the case? In fact in many cases they do stuff that make it all too clear they’re terrible employees.

    The most obvious example that comes to mind is Friends, Ross and Rachel in particular, who seem to get promotions and potential employers fighting over them despite all the rule-breaking and poor behaviours. Although, I guess showing people meeting KPIs doesn’t make for great entertainment.

    1. Monsters of Men*

      I mean – I thought it was always emphasized that Ross was kind of terrible at his job. He dated a student, he lost it on the museum head, he was flaky and whiny – just all around a bad employee.

      Rachel, on the other hand, was shown to be a bad employee until she got into the fashion business.

      … anyway.

    2. Rincat*

      I’m not sure I’ve ever noticed that, but I will now! My big thing is when they don’t eat the delicious looking food in front of them. JUST EAT IT!!!

      1. Berry*

        The reason they don’t eat food in front of them is because when they do multiple takes, they have to eat food in every take. There’s some funny stories out there of actors filming who have had to eat the same thing for hours until the shoot was completed.

        It’s like free food at work going from a benefit to a detriment!

        1. Rincat*

          That makes sense. I just have this thing that fresh, hot food should be enjoyed IMMEDIATELY. I get annoyed in real life when people don’t immediately start eating their food. I try to keep that all in my head though!

        2. K.*

          Yeah, it can mess with continuity – and the food can get gross and congealed if it’s been sitting out for hours.

    3. J*

      Aside from my perpetual rage that Rory Gilmore was considered some kind of prodigy? (Mitchum Huntzberger was totally on the money telling her she didn’t have what it took to be a journalist.)

      No, I don’t get fussed about that at all :)

      3. Stelmselms*

        So totally agree! She was told her entire life that she was the most special of anyone in the whole wide world, and then she is the one the most completely adrift! But I digress.

    4. Lumen*

      My pet peeve is the ‘genius jerk who is excused because GENIUS’. It’s such a tired trope at this point, and a really nasty one. Highly intelligent people are no more or less inclined to be jerks than anyone else; less intelligent people are also not automatically more kind or ‘noble’. Also, this trope only seems to apply to male characters, so basically no matter how terrible their social skills, no matter how poorly or abusively they treat their colleagues, they get away with it because they’re just SUCH GENIUSES!!!

      It drives me nuts. I know there’s definitely some of this, but in the real, world, if you treat your coworkers like garbage and insult them constantly, eventually it won’t matter if you’re good at your job.

      3. Parenthetically*

        Ohhhhh my goooodddds yes. I even like Hugh Laurie! I would kill for an Elderly Bertie Wooster reboot. But House makes me cracksy in the cranial region.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’m currently reading a book where the team is the world’s best at their individual jobs, and yet they just allowed a major error to happen. Not saying it’s improbable, given the story’s context, but when you describe people as having almost superhuman capabilities and somehow all of them mess up just enough to let the other side outwit them at a pretty predictable time, it doesn’t flow.

      1. Lison*

        I can do the suspension of disbelief thing but watching, for example CSI, with a family member (we are both scientists) they have a constant commentary of “so that sample is contaminated now, and that one, oh brilliant now there is mascara in that sample” etc. They are right every time, by the way, but I’m treating the show as science fiction :)

    6. SoCalHR*

      I’ve been known to yell at my TV all the time anytime I see an inconsistency or something unrealistic…but I definitely do it when its something HR related (I’m sure doctors do the same thing while watching Grey’s Anatomy or whatever)

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        I felt conflicted about this watching Gypsy on Netflix, because while the character was a total psychopath and flagrantly violated nearly every code of ethics there is for mental health providers, the actual therapy she did in session was kind of on point.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I didn’t make it through the first episode but from what I saw I disagree. She just wasn’t present with her clients.

          1. strawberries and raspberries*

            There are some highlights later into the season. At one point she pointed out to the guy who couldn’t get over his ex that his treatment was being impeded because he was focusing all his attention on how she had a “hold” over people, and took no accountability for his own feelings or actions, which I thought was pretty great. But then again, she also forcibly inserts herself into the lives of her patients’ families and fabricates client notes, so even a broken clock is right twice a day. (They’re not renewing the show, so I guess a lot of people couldn’t finish it.)

    7. Sylvan*

      Yes! I always want to see the character actually doing the job. It’s usually something really interesting, too.

    8. Snarl Furillo*

      My latest guilty pleasure is binge watching “Hawaii 5-0” and texting friends about its hot shot lead, the world’s Best Worst Navy SEAL. He gets kidnapped quite frequently for a man who can supposedly build a bomb underwater with his teeth. If he were actually any good at his job, I guess each episode would only be 8 minutes long, but it’s pretty hilarious.

    9. hermit crab*

      I’ve been watching Will & Grace (for the first time! thanks hulu) and wondering about this. At the beginning of the series, both of the title characters are successfully running their own businesses in New York City at like age 30. They have apparently wooed fancy clients away from their competition. But they never do any work! And mostly we just see them screwing up and slacking off.

    10. Cassandra*

      That thing in The Flash where Iris was briefly DATING HER BOSS and I was all OH COME ON WTF NO this is so not okay!

    11. ONFM*

      I’m a day late, I know, but Law & Order SVU. Olivia Benson is The Worst. I’m a female police lieutenant and a mother and I can have normal adult relationships and conduct myself like a professional and actually run a successful squad, unlike that frozen forehead wonder. Ugh. My husband loves the show and I’m usually walking out of the room, yelling “You have GOT to be kidding me!” by the 15 minute mark.

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      This is sort of like my Star Trek pet peeve. Why are they always going down to the surface of some hostile alien world without any special gear, like warm jackets or water? How come nobody has any basic survival skills except for how to fix electronics?

  21. Double-Booked*

    My new boss has, on a few occasions so far, double-booked meetings for me and some coworkers—how can I figure out if this was done inadvertently or on purpose, and what can I do when this comes up in the future? If he is purposely double-booking, is there anything I can do to push back?

    I had to leave a high-priority meeting for 15 minutes earlier this week because he had booked a relatively low-priority meeting over it. My coworker had to leave an onsite training session for an hour because, again, lower-priority meeting was scheduled on top of it. These are at least 2 examples that I’m aware of in the few months that he’s been our manager. My spidey senses are tingling, and not in a good way.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      If they’re lower priority are you able to decline them? Have you tried asking your boss? Is it possible he’s just not checking your calendars?

    2. Sole*

      Are they low priority meetings with him? If so, and he expects his meeting to get first concern, it might take a clear question of “This week I had to leave a high-priority meeting to make our scheduled time. What can we do in the future to ensure our calendars are synced up?” or something similar? If he’s just scheduling meetings without looking at what you have booked, maybe you can push him to change?

    3. Marzipan*

      Are you not asking at the time it lands in your diary? If not, then maybe start. “Boss, you’ve just put a Smallville Teapot Admiration Society meeting in my diary for noon on Tuesday, but I’m scheduled to be co-chairing the Metropolis International Teapot Convention Committee at that time. I’d suggest the Committee should take priority as it’s a major event, does that make sense? Did you want to send someone else along to the Teapot Society or shall I just send my apologies?”

    4. KR*

      Ugh this happened to me once with a professional networking event an hour away from the office I had been dying to go to because it had an especially relevant presentation in the afternoon (though was an all day event). Boss says, let’s talk to other coworker about this thing that I don’t have a lot of say in, is not happening for months, and I would be there as more of an FYI. I email other coworker and he suggests time while I’m at conference. I tell boss and say, oh of course I would be at conference or we could reschedule. Boss says, no I want to talk about this in person let’s go with original time. Other coworker emails back and says, I just checked your calendar and you’re at conference. Of course let’s move this to next day. I tell boss this about how coworker suggested moving the time and say, I really think Afternoon presentation at Conference will be very helpful to our department and I should attend this and boss says no let’s go with original time. So frustrating. And when I got back from morning portion of the conference he asks me about the presentation. I tell him and he says, oh well that’s not relevant to us. What about the thing about Relevant presentation. And I say, well you said this meeting with coworker took priority and the conference is an hour away so I had to leave early and drive back here. And the so important meeting last fifteen minutes, concerned thing that I wouldn’t even have a major part in, and covered information we had been over already multiple times. Part of the reason why I reached the stage where I was Okay with Relocating and Moving On from Company. Because I felt boss didn’t recognize my need for advancement and professional development/networking and my efforts to improve our department, and I felt he just had a not good work management skillset. This was over a year ago and at an old job and I’m still steamed about it. Sorry for the rant. I get it, OP. Thanks for listening.

    5. Engineer Girl*

      Reject his meetig notice saying that you’re already booked. Make sure your rejection has alternated meeting times.

      “Sorry, that time is already booked! Can we do xx instead?”

    6. Managing to get by*

      Does he set his own meetings? My director’s admin sets most of her meetings, and I just coordinate with the admin to get things moved around. That got complicated when she got a new admin who thought she needed permission to move a meeting, but we got that sorted. I end up double and triple booked a few times a week with various meetings from multiple departments, it’s a pain and takes a lot of prioritizing and coordinating. My best tactic is getting in good with the admins and exec assistants and they will help out quite a bit.

      If he’s setting his own meetings, he’s probably not checking your calendar. I’d just tell him when I go the invite “I’m in X meeting at that time, do you need me to miss that or should we reschedule the other meeting?”

  22. Trout 'Waver*

    What’s with Applicant Tracking Systems not allowing cover letters? That seems to be a thing now and I’m completely baffled as to why.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, it’s a bit weird. I saw a couple of tech companies doing that. In theory, you could just attach the cover letter to your résumé upload, though.

    2. writelhd*

      I agree with this concern and it makes me wonder if they’d ever get read, if you do attach them anyway as a first page of resume or something. It’s a very confusing signal.

    3. Fabulous*

      When I’ve come across this in the past, I always add my cover letter as the 1st page of my resume to circumvent the issue.

    4. A Teacher*

      I just sat in a career forum and the big yellow tractor company had their HR manager there and she said “Don’t even bother with cover letters, no one reads those things anyway.” I know for this major employer they don’t want cover letters and have disable the ability in their application system.

    5. H.C.*

      I disagree with the 3 commenters above; if the ATS doesn’t provide a space for cover letters, I don’t think applicants should circumvent it by including in their resume file. At OldJob & CurrentJob, there are quite a few openings where we only want resumes for the first pass. We wouldn’t necessarily throw out applicants who included a cover letter too, but it does put a negative ding for not following directions.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        it does put a negative ding for not following directions.

        In that case, I think you should explicitly say in your directions “We do not want a cover letter. Please submit only your résumé.”

        1. H.C.*

          We do say “attach your resume only” – that’s definitely not an invitation to add a cover letter to your resume pdf

    6. As Close As Breakfast*

      I’ve wondered about this as well. On one hand, cover letters are great and if there isn’t an obvious spot to upload one than adding it as the first page of your resume is the obvious choice. On the other hand, you should follow application instructions, so if there isn’t a way to upload the cover letter that’s basically instructing you not to provide one. But maybe the hiring manager, who had nothing to do with the system, wants to see a cover letter? Or maybe HR, who may have had something to do with the system, doesn’t want them and they’re ones sending applications along? So, seriously, what are we supposed to do???

      1. Office drone*

        I hire at a place that has no place to put a cover letter. Out of hundreds of applications I’ve seen, a handful at most have put cover letters at the beginning of the resume, and I always view it favorably. But that’s just me…

  23. Turkletina*

    I work on a distributed team. My manager, who I’ve never met in person, is going to be in my city next week, and she wants to have dinner with me before some other team members get here. What is the etiquette around this? She’ll be staying in the middle of my mid-sized major city; I’m about 15 minutes away in an inner suburb. She says she’s willing to come to me. Do I take her up on that? How do I pick a place? Is it appropriate to go to a place that has family-style seating (though not family-style dining)? I know I’m overthinking this, but ugh.

    1. WellRed*

      Is there a restaurant in your area that you know has good food and service? Or one in the area she’s staying in that has good food and service that you could meet her at? As to family style seating, no, just no.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I don’t mind doing this when dining alone if the place is crowded–I had to do it in London a couple of times–but I would not want to do it on a business dinner with my boss.

          2. Starbuck*

            How interesting, I’ve never heard of such I thing! I heard “family style” and assumed you meant a cozy booth or something. Is this a regional thing? East coast, Midwest or something? Maybe I don’t get out much but I can’t remember ever going to a place that seats strangers together (other than at a bar) here on the West coast.

            1. Turkletina*

              It might be regional! I recently moved to the Midwest from the West Coast, and I never really saw this kind of thing before the move (though my mom apparently has fond memories of communal seating at Durgin Park in Boston).

        2. The IT Manager*

          WTH? I’m trying to picture this … long picnic tables?

          Anyway this is basically a business dinner so family style seating should be avoided. Preferably a quiet place where you can talk about work.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Yes, most places around here that do family style have tables that seat six, eight, or ten people, so they’ll put three, four, or five couples together, or a party of four + a party of two, or whatever. It is weirdly especially common in high-end “gourmet” type locations. I don’t like it at all, but some people do. (Would avoid for a business dinner, though.)

    2. Undine*

      I assume meeting with you is part of her job (on some level), so fine if she comes to you. Not sure what family style seating is, so can’t help you there. Can you send her a link to the place, say it’s pretty good, mention the seating & ask her if that looks ok?

    3. ..Kat..*

      Offer her a few suggestions (with reasons why each selection might be good) and let her decide. For example. Restaurant X has private booths which cuts down on the noise, but their service is slower.

  24. Puuuurrrrfectly Confused*

    My org consistently gives short (3 week or less) windows for RFPs. The result is we get all the quality vendors asking for more time, then a huge discepancy in return rate and how detailed answers are. Ultimately we base it all on the demo but it seems like we are hurting ourselves with this timeline.

    How do other orgs that typically do software RFPs manage this process for big impact items? If your group competes for work by RFPs – how do you view potential clients with quick decision times?

    Some examples for scale: complete revenue cycle outsourcing, etc.

    1. Mazzy*

      I don’t know all the questions you’re asking that make three weeks a short turnaround time but I’m guessing you’re asking for some information that you probably don’t need? Maybe you can cut out, I don’t know, asking about the details of the company’s financials, or for their org chart, or for bios of all their employees, or asking for certificates of insurance and documentation that they comply with local state and federal laws? I’ve had to provide all of that type of information for RFPs I responded to in the past. If it’s for software, I’d focus the RFP stage on the demo, basics of the system, and ask if they’re capable of programming in whatever exceptions you’re going to need in the software for your company. Maybe include two or three examples of uncommon features you need built into the software and ask if they are capable of providing that and how

    2. Weekend is almost here!*

      I work for City government. The RFP deadline, is the deadline, no extensions allowed. Period. We date & time stamp the RFP when it’s received.

      If you stick with the deadline, the quality vendors will submit items or not get the jobs.

  25. AnnaleighUK*

    My housemate has been working on a presentation about dress codes in the workplace and also one for how to dress for an interview. It’s aimed at people who are going into work for the first time and she’s made it because when we were at school, we weren’t told about the importance of dress codes and whatnot. But then our other housemate piped up with ‘but people won’t care, they’re bloody-minded enough that they’ll wear what they like and they’d rather lose their job over it because it’s making a stand against the establishment’ and that got me thinking.

    With all this stuff that’s online about being yourself and accepting who you are and all that, do you guys reckon it’s only a matter of time before everywhere gets rid of their dress code? And anywhere that does have one could be seen as discriminatory or whatever? It’s not something I’ve really thought much about till my housemate started on her presentations. What do you guys think?

    1. Monsters of Men*

      I actually disagree. I think with the advent of “Pinterest-perfect” lifestyles, a lot of younger people (including myself – guilty!) take dressing up and looking office chic and “grown-up” (for lack of a better term) more seriously than we would have ten years ago. It’s sort of developed into the norm. Maybe not so much for men, but I see a lot of women my age dressing fairly similarly.

    2. LizB*

      I think the number of people who would be willing to lose a job to make a stand against the establishment is probably pretty small, actually. There are plenty of ways to express yourself through your appearance while still being professional. I think we’ll see dress codes getting looser in terms of allowing things like piercings, funky hair colors, and tattoos, but there will always be some kind of standard of professional dress.

    3. writelhd*

      It’s not going away in many situations. Dress codes often exist for good reasons and when people get away from school and into the work place for a bit, they often acquire the requisite perspective to understand those reasons. I think being willing to lose your job over what you wear is, to a certain degree, a pretty entitled perspective. Some people may have that luxury, and care that much about wearing exactly what the want (and those people may end up clustered in the tech or startup industry where three day old t-shirts with nerd slogans on it is it’s own kid of dress code, though if you want to wear something other than THAT you also face judgement by peers) but many working people don’t have that luxury, and probably have bigger concerns than expressing their identity through their clothes.

      It’s a matter of degrees I suppose. I would struggle with the level of dress and personal grooming required to work in a bank, for instance, as my hair is curly and frizzy and I don’t want to spend the hours in the morning required to hit bank-level grooming standards, and I never tried to work in one. But, I don’t wear athletic pants and quick-dry t-shirts to the business professional job that I do have even though that would be my normal attire otherwise, I’m cool with it for work because I do want to communicate to clients that I’m a professional. I wear closed toed shoes so I can go into the plant with ease and set a good example as a manager by following safety rules, even though off the clock I live in my chacos. And I don’t feel like that’s the establishment crushing my individuality.

      The way you dress communicates something, whether it’s “I’m free spirited and don’t care about your RULES” or “I put effort into the way I look because I want clients to see this place as professional” or “I’m wearing a uniform that indicates me as ‘staff’ because in my work environment it’s useful for everyone to be able to distinguish ‘staff’ from ‘non-staff’ very quickly.” It’s usually useful for you to say something along the lines of “professional” and “staff” in many work environments.

    4. Fabulous*

      Ugh, I hate all the “damn the dress code” articles nowadays for school-age kids. We ALWAYS had a dress code growing up (i.e. no spaghetti strap tanks, no cropped shirts, no saggy pants, etc.) and there was never an issue following it. Granted, I do believe some dress codes have gotten way out of hand. But business-wear will always exist.

      1. Anna*

        The reason dress codes are being viewed so closely right now is because they invariably focus mostly on women’s clothing or, if they are intended for both male and female students, they seem to only be rigidly applied to female students. And frequently the reasoning behind the code is less about appropriateness and more about sexism and racism. Why do spaghetti straps matter? Why are baggy pants such a big deal?

        1. Fabulous*

          In a nutshell… underwear should not be visible, and in both of those instances you’d be able to see a bra or boxers, etc. Visible underwear is not appropriate in a school or business environment.

          1. Anononon*

            Not all young women have to wear bras with spaghetti strap tops and when they are sent home, it has nothing to do with seeing their bras straps and everything to do with their shoulders being exposed and “distracting.”

            There’s a lot of great information out there on how dress codes are used to target women’s clothing. I would recommend reading up on the matter.

    5. Tableau Wizard*

      I think dress codes represent upholding a level of professionalism – but it’s a particularly visual one. There are a lot of things that you could consider “being yourself” that you can’t do in the workplace according to traditional standards.
      Maybe outside of work, you use a lot of curse words in your speech. Maybe outside of work, you are known to be difficult to reach and always late to events. Maybe outside of work, you like to speak in a Jar Jar Binks impression for the majority of your interactions with others.

      Just because these are “you”, doesn’t mean they are professional and acceptable within a work context. Your company gets to set their own standards for what is professional behavior – as a private entity that is their right. You get to decide which behaviors you are willing to change in order to maintain your job – you have that right. I don’t expect that professional dress will go away because enough people “would rather lose their job over it because it’s making a stand against the establishment”.

    6. Fiennes*

      I don’t think there’s ever going to be a massive workplace-wear revolution. However, for the past century, clothing in the West (and IIUC also in some places in Asia) has become more and more casual over time. An everyday dress for a woman in 1917 would seem like formalwear now. Blue jeans went from work clothes to rebellious teen wear to normal casual clothing to something now seen in some offices. College students wear pajama pants to classes. Etc.

      So no revolution is necessary. In another generation or so, people’s workwear will probably look incredibly casual to us.

    7. FatBigot*

      One of the hardest lessons I had to learn is that EVERYTHING about your appearance, manner & voice sends signals, especially when you meet people for the first time. The “Wear what you like” mindset will send some very clear messages about your desire to fit in with workplace norms. Worst case, the interviewer will think that if the person does not care about their appearance, they will not care about doing this job.

      Yes, in some cases this will be unfair, for instance if the candidate cannot afford nice interview clothes. In many cases it will be subconscious, and so cannot even be argued with. However going to an interview is very much an exercise in dealing with the world as it actually is, not in dealing with the world as we would like it to be.

    8. theletter*

      Dress codes vary depending on the culture of the company and the industry, but there will always be a dress code of some form, and breaking it can have consequences for your career. In Chicago’s tech industry, for example, dressing down is mostly expected – and suit at an interview can raise some eyebrows.

      I think the trend is not moving away from dress codes but to make them gender-neutral, specific to the company, and to prioritize employee comfort when possible.

      Breaking a dress code simply to express oneself implies that the employee or candidate doesn’t care about the job. Employees should look like they work for the company, as it shows that they take pride in their work.

      Some companies, such as banks, have the monetary need to spell out the dress code. When I go into a bank, I want to work with people who look like bankers, bank tellers, or other employees. It gives me confidence in the bank.

      When I’m in a clothing store and I see people wearing the company’s clothes, it gives me confidence in the fashion.

      When I’m in the office of a tech startup and people are dressed in clean, casual clothes that are not worn, offensive, overly stylish or overly formal, I get the impression that employees are engaged with the work, make good money and have a solid work-life balance.

      When I’m in doubt over whether my outfit is appropriate for an interview, I always review the current dress code of my local college preparatory school. https://www.ignatius.org/media/2648/dress-and-appearance-standards-2016-17.pdf for example.

      1. Anonish*

        This is eleven kinds of awesome. “Dress suspenders” are allowed. Do you think there was a discussion of how to tell dress suspenders from the inappropriate casual sort?

    9. bb-great*

      I mean, workplace dress codes have already relaxed somewhat, if you look at the ’50s and ’60s when suits (or dresses and hose) were expected and now most office workers dress somewhere on the spectrum of business casual. Of course, off-the-clock fashion also got much more casual in that time. And more recently you have the tech industry which has kind of rejected businesswear as a whole, although I think that’s an outlier. How far this trend will go, I don’t know.

      The individuality, be yourself, etc etc etc mentality isn’t new, it’s been around for decades and yet most people still go along with a dress code to some extent. I think if you’re so intent on expressing yourself through fashion, you self-select to an industry or a company that allows that, and most people don’t care enough to limit their options that way as long as the dress code isn’t too draconian.

      1. TiffIf*

        It is also possible to “be yourself” within the parameters of a dress code. Everyone at my work follows the same dress code and yet we have a wide variety of clothes in evidence every single day.

    10. BF50*

      I actually work for a tech company that has no dress code at all. You can wear whatever you want. Some people wear jeans and tshirts every day. The most formal you see the men seems to be button up shirts and slacks. There are a couple of woman who wear business formal with tailored mix separates.

      It only works because the people who work here know what a typical work dress code would be so even if they are choosing the low end of the dressy spectrum, they don’t come in wearing flip flops, exposed bras, and ripped clothes.

      Also, I’ve noticed, that those who are actively seeking upward mobility in their careers tend to be and the business casual plus side vs the jeans and a t-shirt side of things.

      Even without a dress code, I think understanding workplace norms and typical dress codes is a good thing. It’s also good to know what might be acceptable or not in an unspoken dress code situation. Oddly enough, I saw a lot more borderline work attire at my last job which did have a dress code. Part of having no dress code as a perk, is knowing what following a dress code usually entails. Everytime I wear jeans on a Tuesday, I’m appreciative of the privilege.

    11. Engineer Girl*

      The best explanation I heard was an analogy to a team uniform. If you want to play then you wear the uniform. Otherwise it’s a technical foul.

      Dress codes are slowly changing. That said, you can’t blow them off if you want to work.

      One important point is that you become part of a team when you work. So extreme individuality can become a hindrance if you are working on the team.

    12. MissGirl*

      Fun story about people willing to lose a job over a dress code. My friend works in a call center and they had no dress code until one day…

      Her coworker literally came to work wearing jeans and pasties. You read that right, the woman had no shirt. She was called into the boss and argued there was no dress code. She was sent home and later quit when they established a dress code. Number one on the list, workers must wear shirts.

    13. Panda Bandit*

      Dress codes aren’t going away. I think they’ll become more practical, in most cases. Uniforms, as long as they’re not hideous, can be a good idea sometimes. When I was much younger I thought it was better to dress how you want, but that’s before I had numerous clothing items ruined at my jobs. I’d much prefer getting an easily replaceable uniform ruined than one of my favorite t-shirts.

    14. mooocow*

      I abhor dress codes, but even I make an effort for interviews. But really, any business that has a strict dress code, I’d probably self-select out. Not necessarily due to the dress code, but in my experience the kind of businesses in my field with strict dress codes are also businesses that are otherwise pretty hierarchical and would probably clash with my personality.

      In general terms, I think there is a trend towards more relaxed norms, but I don’t think we’ll live to see the end of the dress code.

      Fun fact: A colleague of mine studied at a university where students were required to take their oral exams in a suit and would be sent home and have to re-take the exam another day if they didn’t turn up in a suit. Coming from a hippie university, I was quite shocked to hear that!

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Every generation rebels or pushes back against the previous generation. Some of that is necessary for a successful launch (my opinion of course). What happens is that society as a whole finds a middle ground and lands there. It’s a sorting process to find that middle ground.
      I think that there will be a tendency to move away from dumb ideas in dress codes and go toward a more practical approach. I remember the mid 60s and what a big deal it was for my mother’s generation to start wearing pants. And then came JEANS! Of course, one would not ever wear jeans in the workplace. But time has marched on and decent looking jeans are okay in a lot of places. Now I see people showing up to work with jeans with holes (the jeans are made that way) and planet earth some how did not collapse on itself. /snark. So, yeah, I think more changes in the future but as we see now, with workplaces still a little stricter than society.

    16. Office Gumby*

      In Australia, all primary and secondary schools wear school uniforms. Doesn’t matter if you’re public or private. Every student’s in a uniform every day.

      Because of this, the thought of rebelling against a dress code at a job feels faintly ridiculous.

      School clothes for school. Work clothes for work. Plenty of time to wear whatever you want the rest of the time.

    17. AcademiaNut*

      I have seen this sort of attitude mostly from people who were inexperienced, and didn’t really understand that an employer is primarily hiring you for what you can do, not a deep acceptance of who you are as a person. Or people who had poor social/practical skills generally, and tended to have difficulties as a result.

      But generally mature, experienced people recognize that there as social conventions you have to put up with or live becomes unworkably difficult. They may choose to draw a line and, say, refuse to take a job that doesn’t allow tattoos, or requires women to wear skirts and heels, but they also have learned to balance principles and preferences against the practical reality of needing an income.

      I do think your housemate would be wise to explain a bit about *why* dress codes are important for jobs and interviews, rather than just describing what are, from a logical perspective, often nonsensical rules.

      I also get the feeling that the omnipresence of social media in people’s lives can make people *more* self-conscious about fitting in, rather than less.

  26. Katniss*

    Advice needed, everyone!

    So, through years of daring to be outspokenly female (and also feminist! gasp!) in various places online, I have acquired a cyberstalker. In the past they have stuck to being creepy and insulting, but they have now graduated to doxxing, and have begun mentioning my workplace in their posts. They have also begun threatening to contact said workplace. I know this person has actually contacted the workplaces of at least one other woman in the past.

    My question is: should I give my workplace a heads up now? If so, any good suggestions on scripts?

    1. GottaQuit*

      Sincere question – why would you being on a message board saying these things and being linked to your company be bad?

      1. Katniss*

        It wouldn’t be, but this person is likely to just make up a bunch of things. Or, and I’m thinking this is what he’s going to go for this time considering his recent statements, he may think it would be funny to share stories I’ve shared elsewhere of surviving abuse. So really I don’t think he’ll be doing this to tattle, I think he’ll be doing this to humiliate me.

        1. GottaQuit*

          I wanted to clarify, because from what you said your post it didn’t seem the sort of thing that could get you fired. I don’t think surviving abuse or being a feminist are anything to be ashamed of – however I don’t know your situation and I understand that having someone take away your privacy/power like that would be awful. I mean more in a sense – why would your employer care?

          Frankly if I was a good manager/company I’d be more concerned about my employee being harassed, and having suffered abuse. Unless you’re expressing hate, violence or are affiliated with dangerous organisations I can’t see why your employer would be interested. I think you could tell your manager in private your concerns, or talk to HR and also as someone else has mentioned inform the authorities.

          I’m sorry someone is putting you through this.

          1. Katniss*

            You make a good point, and it’s actually reassuring to be reminded that there’s nothing I’ve done wrong to be shared here. Thank you for that and for the sympathy!

      2. Anna*

        Because that’s not what the doxxing and harassment are about. Whoever this dirtbag is, they’re trying to make Katniss feel afraid to shut her up and that can definitely lead to this person contacting her employer to tell them BS about her.

        I would for sure let your IT and security people know you’re being harassed by a stalker online.

      3. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        I know someone who reported a guy for harassing women online and in person, and his assistant sent a complaint to her college claiming that she was defaming his character. She had a meeting with school officials to determine if she had broken the code of conduct in any way. They found that she hadn’t, but it took a toll on her emotionally.

      4. NaoNao*

        Welllll it’s not theoretically bad. But many companies have a morality clause or an informal idea that one is always representing the company at all times, even off duty, and that any political behavior (like, for example, attending an anti-taking-down Confederate statues rally) is grounds for firing. So if, in theory, one can be fired for one’s political beliefs and actions, than this would be grounds for firing.

      1. Katniss*

        They have been reported, believe me! There’s not much they can do as I don’t know who this person is and the use IP masking.

    4. Cristina in England*

      If he might actually contact your workplace it’s probably a good idea to let them know he’s a stalker first, to get out in front of it.

      1. Sole*

        For sure, like maybe your HR dept. Not sure if they have protocols to deal with issues like stalking of employees? Or to let HR know in case your mgr gets info and begins treating you differently?

      2. Katniss*

        That’s what I was thinking. I’d rather them know and have it turn out that he doesn’t do anything than have them come to me some random day saying “so we got a weird email/phone call…”.

        Alright, I’m going to contact them today. There’s someone in HR I like and trust, luckily.

      3. Karo*

        This is what I’d do. You could even throw in that he’s liable to make stuff up about you if you’re concerned about him spreading the information about your abuse. So sorry you’re having to deal with this!!

    5. Undine*

      At any kind of decent company, I think there’s a big plus to getting ahead of the curve. Contact HR & ask for a meeting, print out some of the insults and the mentions of your workplace. They may be able to put in a plan to mitigate it, or, for example, send out a generic email “Please report people sending harassing emails about other employees.”

      I do know someone who wrote in her diary about a crush on her (married) coworker, and her boyfriend found it & threatened to tell her coworkers, so she went to HR and they were very helpful.

      1. Katniss*

        This is what I’m going to do. I think I just needed some encouragement that it wasn’t a crazy thing to do: being stalked this way is kind of crazy-making.

        Thank you!

        1. Jules the Third*

          Not crazy, going to HR is a good decision. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

          I *hate* doxxing.

    6. Ihmmy*

      I would give your HR and your manager a heads up. Maybe your main reception person too, if you know the name of whomever this is that’s stalking you. That way you can also ask them to not disclose information on you, and to not transfer this person to you.

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this, it’s wildly inappropriate. I hope they peter out soon.

      1. Katniss*

        Thank you! Good idea on the reception person: I would never have thought of that. I’ll ask HR before I do so just in case they want to do it instead, but I’ll bring it up in my meeting with them today.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, this; as a past receptionist, it is very helpful to know this stuff. We can transfer calls directly into voicemail, or help you avoid it altogether. At one place I worked, a coworker had an ex who kept calling incessantly and our manager asked me to transfer those calls directly to her. It stopped shortly after. Muwaha.

      2. Valkyrie*

        As the main-phone-answerer at my office I’ve taken these calls before. It was incredibly helpful for me to know because when someone called asking for coworker I was able to probe a bit more than I typically would have and help determine if a call should go through. (disclosure: I work at a super small office, but I’m also a former therapist and certified domestic violence counselor, so I sort of have unique training esp. for a “receptionist” to take these sorts of calls)

        I’m sorry you’re going through this, this sucks.

    7. Sallie*

      I had a cyber-stalker call my employer. He told my employer that I was friends with a terrorist on Facebook (the “friend” is actually a journalist). I did screen shots of my very few interactions with this journalist and gave them to my employer. Everything was fine, but it was a bit mortifying.

    8. fposte*

      If you think work will have your back, I would. I’m still warmed by the firm response of my sysadmin years ago to a stalker of mine off of Usenet (we were all using our university addresses those days).

    10. Deloris Van Cartier*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this, it can be scary and overwhelming when you have a stalker. I would give your HR department and your manager a heads up about it. Your HR department should be able to notify anyone who may come in contact with them and how to appropriately handle those calls. It’s good to let your manager know in case they get a hold of them and share false information that may be damaging to your reputation. I think sometimes people downplay a cyberstalker verse someone in person, even though both are equally bad, so if someone doesn’t take it seriously, make sure to follow up with someone else as your job should support you through this as it is a safety issue. I’d also make sure to document all of this so you can show all the steps you’ve had to take to protect yourself from their actions.

    11. Katniss*

      Update: I let HR know what’s up and they were great about it. They’ll alert the front desk, alert the rest of HR to be on the lookout for weird calls/emails, and provide support with building security if needed.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        That’s super encouraging to hear in such a crappy situation. Hopefully this resolves itself soon. Going through this myself, I know it’s difficult.

      3. Kewlmom*

        I’m very sorry to hear that you’re going through this. Would it make sense to also think about alerting your local police department at home as well?

  27. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    Oh, another thing that’s not a question:

    I got a bigger than expected raise! YAY! It’s not really something one talks about in my country so I haven’t been able to celebrate it properly!
    I had a rough first year due to medical issues and while I thought last year went very well, I still can’t get over the brain weasels (I also got diagnosed with ADD during the last year which has explained a lot of things) and I was so surpised. Even more surprised when I found out a friend of mine got a smaller raise than I did, even though we thought she had gotten the better review.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Congrats!! What a nice surprise and well-earned, I’m sure.

      I was about to post that I just got a job offer than came in higher than expected (and actually, higher than they said they were able to go), but then I wondered if it was too braggy to post, so let’s start a celebration thread right here!

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Yep! I’ve already accepted their verbal offer. Onto the background check, then the written offer follows.

      2. Rookie Manager*

        If we’re having a celebration thread, I’ve been in my job around 6 months and this week I found out I’m getting a 10% raise. I’m pretty chuffed!

        Congrats to you both too.

      3. Fact & Fiction*

        Hooray for us!

        I’m late to the celebration but I accepted a new job offer this week for a 40% pay raise I didn’t have to haggle over. I gave them a 10k pay range I was looking for and they came in 1k over that. My years of reading AAM were invaluable and I wrote an awesome cover letter/accomplishment-focused resume that helped me go from application to phone interview a week later to two in-person interviews and job offer within another week.

        I had been applying very selectively to new opportunities that interested me for a year with little activity other than a couple interviews last year (one for a job I didn’t actually want and the other would have been a stretch that I could have handled but could see why they went with someone else), so this one felt like a whirlwind.

        Leaving my current amazing employer is hard but my heart hasn’t been in the work. I basically project manage publishing services for clients whereas the new job lets me get back into doing the online content marketing I enjoy.

        Pretty excited!

  28. writelhd*

    What is the group’s opinion on the following two competing project management/organzational strategies, in a context where a manager (me) has many different projects for a given 6-12 month period to propose, select to work on, and manage to completion, some of which are individual, and some of which involve managing cross functional teams who contribute to project on top of their regular jobs which are something else. All projects could be worth doing, but are happening in a landscape of uncertainty where information comes up in the moment that shifts their relative importance. I have the freedom to decide some are not worth the time and cannot/should not be completed, but, I also have to make good decisions on which ones.

    a.) Keep a master plan of all of the projects and break them down into various action items, periodically (weekly or so) identify the top action items from among them all that make the most sense to do for that period with the available resources, and do those items. Usually a few from each project, so things are proceeding in parallel. Have the freedom to jump on different action items than planned if something in the moment comes up that makes that make sense: somebody figured out a solution to an issue, a hot client asks for a particular new product in the works to be accelerated, etc.

    b.) Select one or at most two projects that are THE most important using the best information you have at the time to assess that, and work on just those until they are done. Then select the next one, and work on it until it’s done. Rinse and repeat. Do not deviate from the chosen plan of action unless business demands dramatically change and stay changed for a while.

    1. Mazzy*

      I do A in Real life because I manage a billing system and if something is wrong then we bill customers incorrectly, but during quiet. So when there are no crises, I do B and I prefer B I think it’s more efficient and there are definitely economies of scale in terms of peoples time. Some projects are so complicated that just to stop and pick up can take two or three hours because the worker has to remember/lookup every tiny detail of the project, and in most cases needs to re-run reports and lists pertaining to the project and any exceptions that will need to be handled. Sometimes it can take a full day just to re-run reports and look up what the current list of exceptions and ours are that pertain to the project. So it is definitely not saving time jumping back-and-forth between projects for having them drag on for too long

  29. Nervous Accountant*

    Hi all,

    maybe this is kind of a duhhh question but I’m wondering how are things at other companies (and to a lesser extent, wonder if my view of wha’ts normal has been skewed).

    Here, if you’re good at something you’re “rewarded” with more work, more responsibilities, promotions etc. (There’s also raises and bonus PTO to reward us for our work.)

    I hear way too many people though say that its not fair, that they shouldn’t have to do MORE work if they’re good at what they’re doing.

    This week, someone got promoted and I gave her a small task to do. She said “Thanks–oh wait, I’m giving you thanks for giving me more work” (extremely sarcastic tone).

    Idk, I always thought it was normal that the further up you go, your responsibilities change, but workload may not? But I also understand why my coworkers complain about the workload and that my perspective is off.

    1. LizB*

      I think what happens at your workplace re: promotions = more responsibilities is super normal, and your coworkers’ complaints are pretty weird. If I were the manager of your sarcastic coworker, I would be very taken aback by her response.

      1. Sole*

        Seconding ‘super normal’…kind of the definition of a promotion? If your coworkers are upset by the workload, that seems like an environment specific problem, not so much a business norm. Also, if you want to maintain your current level of responsibilities, you’re usually able to stay where you are/decline a promotion – if your workplace is instead forcing people up the ladder, that might be a unique situation.

    3. Cristina in England*

      Sounds like a workplace where additional responsibilities are not adequately compensated?

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, the general idea is that you get more work but you also get more money.

        If you are perennially getting more work but no increase in pay, on the other hand…

    4. Snark*

      If you’re promoted, your duties and responsibilities expand and evolve. This is how employment works. Your coworkers are whiny.

      1. JaneB*

        Yeah, you don’t get more work, you get DIFFERENT work, surely? You can’t just keep getting more & more…

    5. Susan K*

      Something I’ve seen a lot — which is probably a sign of bad management — is that workload shifts from poor performers to good performers. Fergus keeps screwing up the TPS reports? It’s easier for the manager to just assign the TPS reports to someone who can be trusted to do them right than it is to get Fergus to improve his TPS reports. When there’s an important new project, it’s easier to assign it to a good performer who will do it right than to a poor performer who will need close supervision, even if the good performer already has a lot on her plate. I think it’s understandable for the good performer to be resentful of such an arrangement, especially if she’s getting paid the same as the poor performer.

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, but if you’re good at the TPS reports, and you get promoted to Senior TPS Specialist, and you’re whining about getting more TPS reports because you’re good at TPS reports, then I think that’s steering wide of the point.

        1. SoCalHR*

          I agree, especially because Nervous Accountant said the company actually monetarily rewards the “more work” which is better than at some companies – some just reward hard workers with more work and don’t compensate them for it. You want the higher paycheck/authority/etc then its going to come with additional and/or harder tasks – sounds like the co-worker didn’t realize that.

          1. Susan K*

            That’s true — if they’re actually getting promotions and raises in exchange for the increased workload, that’s reasonable. Unfortunately, in the places I’ve worked, that’s not how it happens; good performers are “rewarded” with more work while poor performers are “punished” with less work, even though they’re all making roughly the same salary.

      2. Jennifer*

        Been there. But in my experience, there was just no effing way we were going to motivate our retiring Ferguses to shape up, and I still have a lifetime of working to go.

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        I think there’s a bit of that here but not as widespread as people think. High performers get more assignments and clients, low performers don’t, which is pretty unfair I think.

    6. Lumen*

      A couple of others have addressed this, but I think the attitude around this has changed partly because many companies are no longer rewarding (or even fairly compensating) employees who take on additional responsibilities. It’s reasonable to feel resentful if you keep taking on new work and new responsibilities and don’t feel it’s in line with the recognition/reward you’re getting in return.

      However, alongside that attitude shift is that even when employees ARE being fairly rewarded for promotions and extra work, sometimes they expect to be ‘screwed over’. It could be a defense mechanism, it could be a bad previous experience, it could be that incompetent employees are having work taken away from them and dumped on competent employees, and it could be that your company isn’t appropriately compensating people when they move up.

      Or they are entitled and whiny. But it’s worth exploring the other possibilities rather than just writing someone off, which you sound open to. It might be worth sitting down with someone and making sure they know that they are being given ‘more work’ because they are trusted, and ask if they feel the same trust in the company.

    7. Perse's Mom*

      I hear way too many people though say that its not fair, that they shouldn’t have to do MORE work if they’re good at what they’re doing.

      I am thinking of one coworker who complained endlessly about never being recognized for… doing the bare minimum. Congrats, you can show up on time and do things half as fast as the rest of us and spend an hour a day complaining to your cubicle neighbor. Would you like a cookie?

      Are these people really doing good work? Is the workload workable? Or are they really good but already swamped and being “rewarded” means they’re now drowning? Are they expected to pick up the slack for less skilled or motivated coworkers? (I can think of nothing so demotivating as working your tail off only to find out you got the exact same raise this year as Fergus, who gets almost nothing done and gets praised for showing up only a half hour late this time!)

    8. Purple Jello*

      I’d be tempted to say, “This isn’t your responsibility? No? Then who should I be giving this to?”

    9. Just Popping*

      I mean, there’s only so much work any one person can do. If the result of more responsibility is “getting” to stay an extra 3 hours to finish work, I can see how you can get bitter with the “reward”. When I’ve gotten more responsibility from the top, I get to delegate some lower responsibility from the bottom. So I get more difficult/complex work, but my volume of work doesn’t change. So, I agree with the employee. She shouldn’t be getting MORE work.

    10. AcademiaNut*

      Are people being asked if they want the promotion, or is the promotion simply being giving to them? Some people are eager to move up in rank, accepting more responsibility and more complicated tasks in exchange for more money and status. Other people are happy doing what they are doing, and don’t want to move up to more responsibility and work. If they’re forced to it, then they will be resentful.

      The other issue would be if being good at your job automatically leads to longer hours and more stress. I can see a lot of people resenting that.

  30. Sadie Doyle*

    Do any commenters have any suggestions for how to deal with coworkers who respond aggressively or with anger/hostility?

    I have a lot of trouble with this. I tend to freeze up because it takes me by surprise (I just asked you a question, why are you getting upset!!!), but I would like to be able to handle it better or respond more constructively.

    1. Anna*

      Is this one specific person? If it’s one specific person, you can rehearse what you want to say in response because at this point, you shouldn’t be surprised by the crappy behavior. But definitely practice your response beforehand so it’s ready to go when this person gets hostile.

      I don’t really have any recommendations for what that response should be because I might be a bit…not nice if someone is a jerk to me for no good reason.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Can you give an example? I get reamed out by different departments regularly due to the fact that there’s a BOATLOAD of tension in my company (and I am but a humble peon with which to absorb their frustration).

    3. Merci Dee*

      A variant of your statement — “I just asked a question, so I don’t understand why you’re getting upset” — is pretty much what I toss out there. In a surprised and very confused kind of voice, not a snarky tone. Their reaction is inappropriate, so the least I figure is that they can explain why they thought it was a great thing to say. Then, of course, I ask my question again and wait for the information they should have given the first time.

    4. Lumen*

      It would be great to understand better what aggression/hostility you’re receiving. But if it’s really overt, and makes it hard for you to ‘handle it better’, the good news is: you are not responsible for ‘handling’ someone else’s terrible behavior!

      I suggest, if someone responds to you with open hostility/aggression, taking a beat and then saying: “If this is a bad time, I can come back later.” Sometimes this can signal to them that they’re coming off badly, or that something in their demeanor is off.

      Also, that could be the case: maybe they genuinely don’t realize how they seem to you.

    5. Samiratou*

      Are you regularly dealing with coworkers being hostile for asking questions? If so, I’d be looking for a new job, because that’s toxic and not likely to change.

      If it’s one person, go with the surprise and ask what about your question made them upset and see what they say. If they do that to everybody it may just be a thing and maybe don’t take it personally? Not sure.

      As others have noted, this one needs more context. Questions shouldn’t prompt hostility on a regular basis unless you’re asking the same question over and over again or it’s a question that has an answer that’s easily looked up but they spend a lot of their day answering the same kinds of questions, in which case I can understand frustration, but not hostility or aggression.

      Also, are you more used to a less-direct communication style? It may be that they’re not hostile or aggressive, just more direct or to the point than you’re used to. Where I live this can be an issue–we do less direct here, so it’s easy to see people as mad when they’re just using fewer words than we’re used to.

  31. Sugar of lead*

    I’ve had this job for over a month now, and have distinguished myself from my coworkers by reliably showing up for work on time. Yes, it’s that kind of workplace. No, I don’t plan on working there forever. I’m trying to get up the courage to register for the National Teapot Handlers’ Test, which would allow me to do skilled work in any state. So far I just keep putting it off, even though I need to move forward into a job I actually enjoy instead of one I just don’t hate.

    2. Jules the Third*

      Pick a theme song and play it as you apply, practice and ACE that test!

      (As a child of the 70s/80s, my go to is of course Rocky or Eye of the Tiger or We Are the Champions. Or Kiss, because Prince was The Best)

  32. Chupalupe*

    How do you deal with a peer that’s seriously underperforming but the boss thinks is doing good work? It doesn’t affect my position directly in the sense that we cover different regions, but (I think) it matters overall for our department. I produce enough that the department’s numbers evens out, but the region that she covers feel underserved. My boss is very touchy about any perceived criticisms of this person (a couple of people have asked if it’s an age thing, the peer is an employee of 1.5 years who just turned 50).

    I find it irritating that I’m producing so much more, and that I’m always asked to do any work that is “extra”. I’m pretty efficient at my job, so I’m not overburdened, but it just feels unfair.

    How would you guys deal with this?

    1. fposte*

      As long as I was getting credit for what I was achieving, I’d shrug and let it go; it sounds like it’s up to your boss and not you to look out for the department as a whole, and I don’t see a likely intervention that will gain you more than it will cost you.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Transfer either internally or to a different company where you can get out from under the boss, who is the real problem here.

      It’s pretty clear that the boss knows that you’re the one pulling the weight here, since you get assigned all the “extra” work and Boss is touchy about criticizing your peer.

  33. LizB*

    I am expressing these feelings here because I don’t want to express them in real life: I am SO NOSY sometimes. Someone on another team at my workplace got fired at the beginning of the week, and I’m dying to know what happened. I’ve known for a while there were performance issues, but I don’t know what they were, and I’m so curious about what this person could have done to get shitcanned. Taking deep breaths and reminding myself it isn’t at all appropriate to ask.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I think it is natural to want to know what happened. As long as you don’t pursue that natural curiosity in a way that isn’t professional or nose around your co-workers unlabeled medicine bottle (!)….Honestly I probably would want to know too – or what the incident was that finally got them fired, etc…

    3. Sole*

      I think I have similar desire to know things, but it’s usually from a self-preservation instinct – I want to know what happened, so I can make sure to NEVER DO THOSE THINGS and never get fired, which is the ultimate failure (lol). I also want to know what’s happening, everywhere, at all times, so I can help solve a problem before it destroys the business and we all lose our jobs. Just the fun work-related expression of anxiety!

    4. Manders*

      Me too! It didn’t help that I started my career working for family businesses (when I wasn’t part of the family), where a certain amount of awareness of the family’s drama and current mood was genuinely useful information. I decided to stop working for family businesses, but I don’t think I’ll ever fully shake the habit of worrying about surprise firings and wanting to know what went down.

    5. Red Reader*

      Same. Someone Left Abruptly yesterday, and the official story is that they submitted their resignation to take another job, effective immediately, but everyone is so gobsmacked that it seems like there must be something more than that going on, and I want to knooooooooow.

    6. Office Gumby*

      Sometimes I wish I worked HR just so I could know why people left.

      We had stuff happen last week in another dept. The curiosity burns a hole in my soul.

      1. Boötes*

        “I see this job would be a bit of a career switch for you. Why are you interested in working in HR?”

        “Because I want to know what happened!”

        yep, you’re not alone.

  34. More anonymous than usual*

    Although there are no definite departure plans I know of, my boss has recently started talking about moving away to somewhere cheaper (we live in a high cost-of-living area). This is bumming me out, because my boss is a great manager and really advocates for us and gives us a lot of autonomy. If my boss does leave, the only three scenarios I see playing out are:

    1. The second-in-command becomes my boss, which isn’t ideal. 2nd is a perfectly nice person but probably won’t make a great manager.

    2. I could vie for the position myself. I don’t even know if I’d get it. I know I could do a good job with it, but I kind of hate my manager’s job. I like what I’m doing right now and want to keep doing that.

    3. They bring in some outside hire, which would be a total wildcard—could be amazing, could be horrible, or could be anything in between.

    Has anyone else been in a situation like this? I’m not too conflicted about it, just sad, I guess, because if my boss does leave and my new boss sucks, I’ll have to start looking for a job…

    1. NeverNicky*

      Could there be an option 4 and your boss is able to work remotely from their chosen area? If you’re already used to working autonomously, it could be feasible?

      1. More anonymous than usual*

        Thanks for asking. No, unfortunately, it’s not that type of position. Boss has also been talking about how other areas may give a lower salary but have a much, much lower cost of living, so it would definitely be a job switch.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I hope Boss is really looking into this; it’s a common assumption and not always the case. Salaries in low-COL places haven’t risen proportionately to expenses like housing any more than they have in high-COL places.

              1. More anonymous than usual*

                Yes, I believe my boss is doing the due diligence in researching salaries in other areas.

    2. TheMonkey*

      Kind of in this situation right now, except further along the process. In my case, the 2nd in command would’ve been awesome (and is doing the job temporarily) but didn’t want it full time. I SURELY don’t want it myself, and they’ve basically offered the position to an outside person. We all got to meet the candidate and are now waiting for the slow gears to turn in order for them to actually start.

      It’s felt like limbo for a really long time now and soon (hopefully) that limbo will end and we’ll all find out what kind of boss we have now.

      Commiseration for you, more than anything. Living with the uncertainty has been unsettling and while I’m giving the new person the benefit of the doubt, I’m starting to keep an ear to the ground about the possibility of other opportunities (though I generally like my job and my coworkers most of the time, so I don’t want to have to do that.)

  35. beanie beans*

    Is there a good way to answer the type of “Why are you leaving your current position” question that doesn’t tear down your current company but is also honest about why you’re leaving?

    My answer in truth is, “Because there is zero accountability, so I want to work for a company where people care about whether or not I do a good job. Or my job at all.”

    Is there a more eloquent way to say this that focuses on my desire to work somewhere where productivity and good work is valued more without it sounding like trash talking my employer? Or should I just steer clear of anything that sounds too negative about my current job?

    1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      You could try something like ‘I want to work somewhere that my contributions matter and that I’m providing a tangible benefit to our customers/clients/internal staff’.

      I used something similar for my current job after leaving my toxic job.

    2. Mazzy*

      Maybe “even though my area is important and it is simply not valued by my company or management and I want to be somewhere where it is a valued area.” I mean, it’s technically correct, because if the area was life or death in their minds, they probably hold people accountable

    3. Lumen*

      At first I thought you were talking about the (usually B.S.) requests for feedback from the company you’re leaving, but then I realized it sounds more like you’re talking about a interview question.

      So it’s time to spin! You don’t say anything negative openly about your current workplace. You tell them “I want to work somewhere that my contributions will have a more meaningful impact on the organization as a whole. I’m looking for greater accountability and colleagues who push me to give my very best.”

      You don’t talk about your current job at all. A lesson from a comment thread on another post here at AAM: answer the question you wish they’d asked. Because I honestly think these questions from interviewers are always partially a test to see if you’ll badmouth your employer.

      2. beanie beans*

        I love this – thank you! Copied and pasted it into my ongoing list of notes for screening calls and interviews :)

    4. Not really a Waitress*

      I talk about KPIs. I recently left an EXTREMELY toxic job without a job in place because it was killing me. I refer to specifics. I am in training and development and worked for a company that owned several tea shops. They did not measure employee retention. Which made it difficult to track changes in onboarding and new hire training and their impact. So instead of talking about their dysfunction, the bickering and the unprofessionalism, I focus on metrics related to my ability to do my job.

    5. Samiratou*

      Side question–do interviewers still ask this? It seems like kind of a BS question, unless it’s a litmus test for professionalism.

      People who are about to be run out on a rail are unlikely to admit it, so what is an interviewer really hoping to get out of this question? Does it matter if I’m fleeing a toxic workplace or there’s no career growth in my current job or my spouse is relocating or I moved closer to my dying mother? Aside from the second & third options, people are likely to gloss over the details, anyway, so I just don’t really see the point. It seems like one of those questions that is expected or natural to ask but the answer is unlikely to tell you much that’s meaningful.

      Unless, of course, the candidate does unleash a 20 minute vent on their crappy workplace, but how often does that happen?

      1. beanie beans*

        Every job that I’ve applied for this year where I’ve gotten a screening interview or real interview has asked!

        I have stumbled over answering it, but I think it’s legit – maybe your job is temporary, career growth is a totally legit answer, maybe you need something closer to home, maybe you’re looking for something in a different field. I think even if you’re leaving a toxic job, it can give you a chance to say “while I like my current position, I couldn’t pass up the chance to work for your company when I saw the opening.” I feel like you could learn a lot about an applicant based on their response. But I don’t know since I’m not really involved in hiring, only the stressing out of interviewing for jobs. :)

        1. Texan at Heart*

          I always ask this question when I’m interviewing. It helps me understand what a potential employee values in their workplace and decide if we’re a fit for each other. I have also found that the question offers insight into their level of development in our ever changing field. If they tell me they hated sorting llamas by coat color (best practice) and didn’t understand why oldjob wouldn’t let them sort by age (common misconception that if they’re unwilling to change will prevent them from succeeding), I know we’ve got to dig deeper.

          I don’t mind hearing briefly “I am looking for more xxxxx” than I got at OldJob” turn focus to candidate, new job, professional goals. However, I have heard some fairly long stories about how terrible OldJob was, and they leave me wondering about professionalism and ability to let it go for a successful transition.

  36. Anonymous Today*

    I was let go from my last job in July (thankfully with paid severance) and am still job hunting. I am hitting the point where I feel super discouraged and depressed but stuck. I’m volunteering, networking, applying and…nothing. Any great suggestions for soothing your own ego and feeling like things will work out eventually?

    1. Mazzy*

      You can’t control when the perfect job will come along, just believe it will happen. I spent way too many days stewing over how I was a perceived failure, simply because there were no new job postings I could apply to on that day. Never do that. Also, this one was counter intuitive, even though I had so much more free time, I stayed home more than ever and did a lot less stuff. I would never do that now if I was unemployed again. Obviously there are financial reasons for this, but I would definitely get out there and do things that take my mind off the job hunt. for example, I am employed now, but I recently went on an outdoor expedition that was so intense that I completely forgot about my life at home. You need to find something like that to take your mind off of the job hunt

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, those things typically cost money, but I second the recommendation to get out of the house now and then. If money is tight, check around the community for free events you can attend.

        Even if you don’t do anything–sometimes I go to the flea market just to look even if I can’t buy anything, if I literally have nothing else to do. This is something I did even when I was working, because I kind of like poking around in hilariously ugly household items and tweeting snarky pics of them. :)

      2. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        Its very hard to keep your head up during a job search. I was laid off last October and wasn’t able to find work until February. I just enjoyed having Christmas off and time with my family. I actually reached out to friends offering my services of babysitting, shopping, painting or helping with a task they’ve put off. I told them to use my while they could because once I was back to work they were on their own lol. Just be positive and know that there are better things a head. I actually landed my dream job that pays $10,000 more a year than old job did. You can take this time to be picky and get a job you actually want. Best of luck and know your skills are going to be needed someone.

      3. RVA Cat*

        Go to the library and set aside time to read fiction. Lose yourself in the story and let yourself escape.

        Also, one of the best decisions I made last time I was unemployed was to keep up my gym membership. I got as fit as I have ever been in my life.

      4. Boötes*

        Yeah, that’s what I say to myself whenever I have good, steady income, too. Then employment ends, finances evaporate, car is parked indefinitely when insurance runs out, and friends are too busy to go waaayyy out my way to do free, healthy stuff but instead invite me out for drinks or dinner right around the corner from them.

        I decided I should get out more, so I volunteered at an event I’ve heard great things about for years but never went, in part cuz I couldn’t afford it. It coincided with me getting sick, but I found myself surrounded by other workers (ie non-volunteers) who were two-faced, condescending, and / or touchy-feely-manhandle-y. So I don’t want to try volunteering anywhere again because it might be similarly miserable. Previously I was volunteering at a high-falutin’ charity, but I had nearly nothing in common with other volunteers or attendees (we were there because we all liked the same thing–think rhododendron society–but there’s only so much some of us can talk about it), and when they had far more volunteers than needed we just stood around until one of us felt the attendees might be amenable to another round of amuse-bouches.

        You may well be able to leave home regularly if you’re unemployed indefinitely. I admire that. But when you’re in the thick of it for years, it becomes a continual exercise in optimizing ever-dwindling energy and cash in ever-deteriorating circumstances. Sometimes facing The People just ain’t worth it. And that’s okay.

    2. Lumen*

      I was unemployed for a year and it did a number on me in just this way. A couple of years later I was unemployed for several months and it sent me right back to that dark place.

      Fast forward six years and I’m making roughly 4 times what I used to. It took all six of those years, some low-paying jobs I hated, hard work, and of course luck and help from others. Your mileage may very.

      But the key is: the fact that you are struggling to find work right now is not because you are a bad person, a bad employee, unworthy, unlikeable, stupid, smell bad, look funny, or whatever else the depression and discouragement is telling you about yourself.

      You’re not giving up; you’re volunteering and networking and applying. And you cannot give up! You will be okay because no matter what happens, you’re going to keep trying. Make sure you ask for help when you need it; there is NO SHAME in that. Know that the connections you’re making now might take a while to ‘pay off’, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth something NOW.

      You have had jobs before. You will have jobs again. Your next job may last ten years, it may last one or two. Don’t pin everything on one application, one interview, or one job.

      And do yourself a favor: stay away from people who imply that you’re somehow not doing enough. It sounds like you’re doing what you should be — including joining this open thread and asking for encouragement.

      I wish you the best of luck. I’ve been there, and it is so hard, but you must not give up on yourself. You are better than you know!

    3. AudreyParker*

      Thank you for asking this – I’ve been unemployed far longer, and have hit a point where I “punish” myself for not working by not letting myself do anything fun or really leave the house most days because I’m getting nowhere with my job search, feeling like I need to spend 24/7 contemplating how to fix the situation. Of course, I spend much of that time just freaking out about how I’ll never get another job. Helpful to both hear that others are dealing with this feeling and see the encouraging replies!

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

          Ugh, me too. I dropped out of a volunteer thing too because I’m running out of money to spend on train fare to meetings, too.

  37. CatCat*

    Can anyone recommend any courses or books on how to effectively run a meeting? I’d like to improve my skills in this area, especially when running a meeting where there the topics can generate a lot of opinions that need to be heard, but not heard interminably.

    1. Generic Administrator*

      It’s not 100% what you’re after, but I read a somewhat relevant book a few months ago – Taking Minutes of Meetings by Joanna Gutmann. It had a few paragraphs (or even a chapter) about being an effective chair.

    2. Just this once*

      I found Facilitating with Ease! Core Skills for Facilitators, Team Leaders and Members, Managers, Consultants, and Trainers by Ingrid Bens useful (and not too heavy).

    4. the gold digger*

      I was an early reader for my friend Leigh’s book, When Bad Meetings Happen To Good People. I know she’s my friend and I’m biased, but her content is spot on! If you don’t want to buy her book, you can look at her blog (which is about project management) for free: http://projectbliss.net/

      Book: https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Meetings-Happen-Good-People-ebook/dp/B075VZBMQ6/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507934491&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=when+bad+meetings+happen

  38. Spiral Queue*

    I was looking for information about whether to follow up on job applications and Alison seems to give some different advice. In this post, it sounds like you should never do this:

    https://www.askamanager.org/2014/03/do-i-look-uninterested-if-i-dont-follow-up-with-companies-where-ive-applied-for-a-job.html.

    But in an earlier post from a couple years before, she says that “it’s fine to follow up once—in an unobtrusive manner—to underscore your interest. You can do that not by calling, but by sending a quick email”:

    careers/2012/01/23/how-to-follow-up-on-your-job-application.

    Am I missing something or does this seem like it’s contradictory advice? Did Alison change her advice about this at some point?

    I’m trying to figure this out because my therapist (who should not be dispensing career/job-hunting advice anyway) keeps insisting that I should be following up after I submit an application and that’s the reason I’m not hearing back. She’s starting to aggravate me and I’d like to shut her down, but now I’m a little confused about the right protocol.

        1. strawberries and raspberries*

          It makes me glad that the bulk of my experience in direct service has been workforce development. It was so frustrating for me when I’d get a new client with multiple serious barriers to employment and they’d proudly give me a resume that their housing counselor or their social worker wrote for them, and they’d always be horrible. I’m talking things like a paragraph-long objective, employment history as far back as twenty years, and five million bullet points that said things like “Mixed paint colors according to company policy” and “Used telefax, xerox, or adding machine.” It always made me want to scream at people, like stay in your lane and stop making your clients feel terrible about themselves and then undermine all their work with your terrible writing skills. /rage

        3. Texan at Heart*

          Agree! I found that when I felt this kind of frustration from a therapist I was working with, it exisisted elsewhere in the relationship/treatment also. I wasn’t getting the support I really needed for the reasons I was there, and it was time for a new provider. Idk if that’s the situation for you, but it may be worth looking out for whether this is the right fit for you.

    2. Newton Geizler*

      Re: shutting down a therapist. I’ve had my therapist kept returning to topics that I wasn’t interested in discussing with her, or topics that I felt like we had gone over enough. I’ve found that saying something like ‘This isn’t an area I want to work on right now/I feel like I have this aspect of it handled/etc. Can we focus on ___ instead?’ is a good way to redirect a session. Your therapist is there to help you, and a good therapist will take feedback like this gracefully.

  39. GottaQuit*

    I’m having a crappy time, I wrote about this about two weeks ago. Basicially I’m sick, it’s meaning I can’t work, and actually I think I’ve been sick for a while, not realising as work as been really stressfull. It’s looking like I’m going to have to quit as my work are trying to bring be up on some sort of semi-disciplinary thing, like it’s not as serious as it could be, but if I don’t pass in a month it will be. Right now I have no energy, no ability to focus, I’m in a lot of pain, and work have given me no motiviation whatsoever to put in a lot of effort or work past a lot of pain. So it’s a case of having to resign now, I’m concerned about references though, I think I may have unintentionally burned the possibility of a good references as they’ve just lost patience with me. This is adding to my general
    stress and feeling low-ness.

    I think I can start all over again, but I am really tired right now, and I need a break and then to get back to it somehow. I’m in a lucky situation with savings and support that I can take a break, also with healthcare coverage. But when it comes to getting a job again I might be in a sticky situation with references.

    I’m not totally sure what I’m going to do right now. I was looking at a load of options, like going back to school, and teaching abroad, which will all be much later in 2018.

    I guess I’d like to hear from people who’ve had similar stuff happen and they’ve come back from it. The sad thing was this job was meant to cover for some short term work and unemployment, and to give me a break from what seems like non-stop job hunting since 2008, and so I also looked better on paper, and instead it’s really stressed me out and left me just really drained.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Do they know you’re sick and that’s why you are having performance issues? Could a sympathetic coworker provide one?
      When you’re looking again, you can say, “I had to deal with a medical issue that is fortunately resolved.” I did this when I got fired after a major depressive episode impacted my performance at a job. Nobody ever questioned it. I had a few references from previous jobs at the time; could you ask someone from there if you’re still in touch with anyone?

    2. Anono-me*

      Depending on your health issue, prior history at the company and if you want to work there again; Would extended FMLA be an option? Or could you explain that a medical problem has impacted your ability to work and ask to take an unpaid leave of absence?

      Wishing you good luck and good health.

  40. Snark*

    So my favorite client grabbed me as soon as I got in the door and told me that a certain four-star general has a pet project on which all the environmental compliance work needs to be done to get to a clear go-no go point before he presents it in person to the secretary of the service branch I’m contracted to. And then asked me to write a supplemental environmental assessment in two weeks. BUT NO PRESSURE OR ANYTHING

    *chugs coffee*

  41. Career switch: NGOs/nonprofits to corporate?*

    I’ve worked in nonprofits pretty much all my career and am looking at making the switch to the for-profit/corporate world. Anyone have tips on how to sell your experience in a case like this? It seems like both sides have, um, interesting impressions about what it’s like to work in the other world, but that it’s easier for someone in the corporate world to move to nonprofits because there’s a more respect for that experience. (I often hear that nonprofits are sleepy, slow-moving and loathe to change, though that’s not been my personal experience at all)

    1. Sole*

      I think a huge benefit to non-profit experience is that due to the nature of funding limitations, employees are used to wearing multiple hats at once. It’s an amazing, diversifying experience for your daily work and something I would definitely sell. Multitasking to the extreme. It makes many non-profit employees extremely adaptable, since the nature of the job can change with each funding year – programs added, merged, reporting requirements changing constantly, etc.

    2. buttercup*

      Don’t know how much my experience helps, but I basically went from doing research/data analysis for nonprofit to doing research/data analysis for consulting firms. Also, I have mad respect for people who work in nonprofits. They work just as hard as corporate people, if not harder, for less pay and without all the cushy benefits, plus they usually do it in respect to a cause. My firm frequently hires managers out of nonprofit – I don’t know why people would look down on nonprofit experience as a whole.

      I have limited work experience, but my advice is to sell your general ability to hustle, meet deadlines, and produce good quality work in a time efficient manner.

  42. Perse's Mom*

    I was notified this week that my boss had listed me as a top performer in my department. Due to this, I was offered sportsball tickets.

    I asked my grandboss if she knew anything about the process because I had thought about passing them to my brother-in-law to take my niece or nephew, but she said no, if I wouldn’t be personally using them, I should decline them entirely.

    So I will, and now I am kind of annoyed. Because I do not care about sportsball (ANY kind of sportsball) and there is no secondary option on the (realistic, I think) chance that any given employee might not actually care about sportsball. So it amounts to a tangible reward for an employee who DOES like sportsball, and nothing for those of us who don’t. At least if I could pass them to family that WOULD enjoy it, I would have SOME positive feeling about it.

    1. Artemesia*

      If it is the company box then you risk being thought a scalper if someone else shows up; I wouldn’t have asked, I would have just given them to my nephew and been done with it. And if challenged later have said ‘My nephew is such a fan that I knew he would love it so I gave him the tickets.’

      1. Perse's Mom*

        It’s not a box; I asked my grandboss specifically because I know in some circumstances you do have to be there in person to pick up the tickets or whatever, but that of course opened it up to ‘no you really should use them yourself or decline entirely.’

    2. The New Wanderer*

      When my former manager used to give out sportsball tickets, it was the physical tickets and there would have been no way to determine who used them (or if they got used at all). I actually had to reassure him that I (a female) did enjoy going to sportsball games so I would appreciate getting tickets.
      Don’t decline*, once the tickets are in your possession, they are yours to do whatever you want with. Just don’t mention it if you pass them on and if asked, say you were happy to have them.
      * Or, ask if there is an alternative to tickets that you might enjoy more – movie passes, restaurant gift card…

      1. Perse's Mom*

        The email about the tickets did say something about keeping me in mind for future tickets to events, but this happened once before a number of months ago and it was… also sportsball tickets.

      1. LawBee*

        If the boss is super into sportsball, it’s probably a mystery to her that not everyone is. Baseball tickets are a HUGE gift in our firm, and I think baseball is the most boring sport on the planet yes including soccer. I personally think it’s super inconsiderate that another option isn’t offered. “Sportsball or a Visa Gift card for equivalent value” would be nice.

      2. PieInTheBlueSky*

        Possibly a prepaid season ticket package, where tickets are normally used to woo potential clients?

        1. Perse's Mom*

          @stej
          We’re in a major university city and therefore everyone loves Local University Sports Team, apparently.

          @Pie
          I had thought of this. An exec having season seats wouldn’t surprise me at all.

    4. EmilyG*

      I’m only saying this because you said you’re “not interested” in sportsball rather than “dislike” or “don’t approve of” sportsball… would you get anything out of just going whimsically and seeing what it’s like, perhaps with a like-minded friend? I went to a monster truck show once because of free tickets and I’d never do it again but it was interesting to do once. A while back I was at a bar with a friend and someone asked if we’d like some basketball tickets that she couldn’t use, for a game starting in less than an hour. We said yes and it was about a thousand times more fun that I would have expected, due to the dancing/cheerleading, kids’ game during half-time, and general spectacleness of it all. I’d never been to a pro game, but now I’d do it again given the chance.

      I do agree that this is an unthoughtful prize, though, you shouldn’t have to work to find a method to enjoy a prize.

      1. Red Reader*

        same. I don’t much care about sportsball myself, but the park/field/stadium experience when shared with people who DO get super excited about it can be a lot of fun. I’ve knitted through more than a few MLB games in my life :)

      2. Perse's Mom*

        I’m *aggressively* not interested in traditional sports. I just don’t care about it. At all. I’ve been to baseball games and basketball games. Does nothing for me.

        If these were tickets to an esports competition for a game with which I’m familiar, it would be a different story! /nerd

    5. Snarl Furillo*

      I think you should accept the tickets and take your niece or nephew yourself as a special treat. That way you don’t look ungrateful/churlish at work and you get to do something nice with one of the kids.

      1. Perse's Mom*

        Circumstances don’t really allow for that given distance and scheduling. And personalities, frankly. My nephew is in the teenager stage of scowl-and-grunt and my niece is basically a living ping pong ball; adorable and smart as she is, she’s exhausting to be around.

  43. NoodleMara*

    I just had a really excellent phone interview for my dream job and while I know it’s not 100% I’ve got a good feeling. If they didn’t think I was a good fit, they wouldn’t have asked what my timeline for starting was.

    Had to share :)

    2. Morning Glory*

      Congratulations on having a good phone interview!

      I don’t want to sound overly negative and this may vary by region, but… that’s a really standard logistical interview question, and so I would hate to see you get your hopes up based solely on that.

      1. NoodleMara*

        Yeah, I’m aware but I also like celebrating every bit of potential good news. There going to be another round of in person interviews so I know there’s more steps. I like there’s potential and I’m being optimistic for this because it can be such a terrible process. If I don’t get it, I don’t get it. That’s life.

  44. Bend & Snap*

    Help! I’m being strangled by loyalty.
    So I love my boss. LOVE. He’s a great person, great mentor, an advocate for me and really, really good at his job. I’ve been working for him during the hardest period of my life, which includes my divorce and my daughter’s chronic illness. He’s been nothing but helpful and supportive.

    However, I posted here a couple of weeks ago about getting shafted by red tape at compensation review/promotion time. My boss went to bat for me to be promoted with a raise but larger forces were at work. This is a Fortune 50 company so it’s not unusual but I was pretty upset.

    So I worked my network and have a series of interviews for a role in a sister company. They love my experience, the fact that I would be coming from inside the “family” gives me an edge and this role would be 100% remote with travel and would allow me to move closer to my daughter’s father. I currently do 3 days a week at home.

    So…my boss just told me he and our VP are diligently working on getting me promoted.

    And I feel really guilty. There are other things I don’t love about this company since it was acquired, but my boss is freaking fantastic, and I guess I’m just having guilt for pursuing other opportunities and wonder if I’m doing the right thing.

    Help?

    1. Pontoon Pirate*

      My husband had a manager like that, and turned down an opportunity. Then his manager moved away. Now, obviously that’s one point of anecdata to consider. But: if your boss is as amazing as you say, he’ll understand and be happy for you to do what’s best for your professional and personal life. If you choose a new opportunity, you’re not going to burn this bridge; you’re merely crossing it.

    2. GottaQuit*

      At the moment you have options, none of these options have yet yielded fruit. Although your boss and VP are working on getting you promoted, this hasn’t yet happened, and although you have a number of interviews lined up you haven’t been offered any jobs yet. So if you’re thinking you need to discuss this with your boss, I wouldn’t until you have very clear options – a job offer or a promotition.

      If you do get another job, you can sincerely thank your boss for all their help and note your appreciation for them working hard on your behalf for the promtion, you can mention that through your network you were notified of a job that really met your particular family needs and that suited you better and that you’ve greatly enjoyed working with them and appreciate all their support. Perhaps you can get them a thank you card?

      Other than that if they really do treat you well and appreciate you, then they would be happy on your behalf.
      Although it might be making you feel guilty, your boss is indicating that they value you and that you are a good employee, this doesn’t mean you owe them anything for doing this. Don’t stay or tell them out of loyalty, I think part of the problem I’m now in is I had misplaced loyalty to my team, who will do/have done perfectly well without me.

    3. CatCat*

      You were passed over for a promotion. It should not come as a surprise to your boss that you would seek a better opportunity elsewhere. If your boss is amazing, he should understand.

    4. Kathenus*

      Don’t feel guilty. You are looking into opportunities for the good of yourself, your career, and your family – as well as presumably being an asset at a sister company if you got this position. And if your manager is as you describe, if you got and took this other position, he would be disappointed but happy for you. Do what’s right for you, and good luck!

    5. INeedANap*

      You might ask yourself: would you ever expect your boss to turn down an amazing opportunity just so they could continue to be your boss?

      Like, imagine your boss got a great offer, then thought: well, but I can’t leave this company because I need to continue to be Bend & Snap’s boss.

      And then feel free to relieve yourself of any guilt. :)

    6. Mazzy*

      Keep pursuing the other job. Don’t get me started on red tape. If HR and other management want to be hunting for your replacement rather than processing a promotion, let them

    7. Lindsay J*

      If you get the other job, leave and don’t look back.

      Your boss and VP are working diligently to get you promoted, but that doesn’t mean that it’s ever going to happen. I mean, I’m sure he worked diligently prior to the previous review but it didn’t happen then, either.

      And given what happened, I’m sure he would understand why you’re leaving. And if he’s as nice of a person as he sounds like, he would not want you to sacrifice your happiness and your career growth out of some sense of loyalty towards him.

      I mean, I think most good managers understand that it’s a fact of life that good employees move on at some point. Maybe they retire, maybe they move, maybe they get promoted to another part of the company, maybe they go someplace else for a better opportunity.

      And you leaving may even help him to make a better case for his future employees to people above his head – if he can show that he really did lose a good employee because of not being able to raise/promote them as was appropriate it might be taken more seriously.

      And think about what happens if you stay. I assume you’re not going to be happy with the same pay and title for the rest of your career, so what happens in a couple years when you’re looking for a raise or promotion again? It sounds like it would still be difficult and might be even less likely to happen. What if your boss gets tired of all the red-tape and BS and moves on to a different job? I doubt he’d look at the opportunity and then decide against it because he doesn’t want to leave you. What happens if he gets promoted to elsewhere in the company? Or fired because the new owners want to bring one of their own guys in? Or he hits the lottery and retires. Or anything else like that?

      Go to the interviews. If it’s a better opportunity, take it. When you’re leaving write your boss a nice, heart-felt letter about how good of a boss he was and how much you appreciate his support through your time there, and keep in touch with him afterwards.

      Don’t let loyalty hinder your career or happiness, and try not to feel guilty. People move on from jobs all the time, and their companies, bosses, and coworkers all figure out how to move forward without them.

    9. Artemesia*

      There is do or don’t do, there is no try.
      so far you are not someone they have been willing to reward and there is no guarantee they will. I personally have observed situations where someone was strung along for years by people ‘going to bat and trying’ to get them what they deserved and then the new guy (guy) was hired and showered with all the things that they tried and tried to get her but failed to achieve. It is never that they don’t have the money; certainly not at a big company. It is that they don’t think she is important enough or they don’t think she would leave or they don’t much care. All the ‘going to bat’ is kabuki.

      Do what is best for you and don’t look back. Bosses come and go. A good job opportunity doesn’t come by that often.

    10. neverjaunty*

      You are doing the right thing by leaving. Boss “diligently working” vs. red tape and larger forces that have already screwed you? No. You can’t pay your rent or save for retirement with loyalty to your boss.

      Besides, who knows, someday your boss may want out of that nightmare. He’ll be part of your network and you may be in a position to help him.

  45. Murphy*

    I asked this a few weeks ago, but I think I might have done it late in the day.

    Some of my job duties are getting taken away. It isn’t my boss’s doing, and it is not a reflection of my performance. When my boss first told me that it might happen, I voiced my displeasure citing a) that I often don’t have enough work to do and b) that the people I do that work for make me feel appreciated. (Many of my other job duties can be rather thankless in that I often have to tell unreasonable people things they do not want to hear.) He mentioned it again this week that it was probably going to happen and that the duties were likely being given to our old admin (who is great). She was just promoted into a new position that was created for her. She’s also taking over some of the duties from a co-worker who is retiring, even though she’s being replaced. I don’t want this work taken away, and I’m annoyed that they created a new position but they apparently have to take work from other people in order to fill her day. Can I do anything other than tell my boss that I’m unhappy about it?

    1. Mazzy*

      Can you make a case that you are the most logical person to handle whatever work it is? I’ve done that before. There were a project that the person who it should logically had gone to would just basically checkboxes and go through the motions blindly on the work, and even though I wasn’t the person who regularly did that work at other companies, at this particular company I had more visibility to details, so it made more sense for me to do the work, because I would find more details, errors, and potential issues than the other person did or would. And then it came to “do we want this area truly worked on, or do we just want to check yes on a list that we looked at something superficially?” And I kept the work

    2. Been there*

      Can you reframe it?

      Hi Boss! I have been thinking since the last time we spoke about the redistribution of duties. I’m wondering if we can talk about what else I can work on since I’ll have open bandwidth. I noticed that project A will be kicking off soon and it sounds interesting or maybe you have some other things that you need me to tackle.

      Instead of being resentful (although I can understand it in this situation) look around and see if there are opportunities for you to do some new stuff. I’ve done it in positions that I was well and truly bored with very little work to keep me busy, and it ended up leading to entirely different career path with several promotions in a very short period of time.

    3. Murphy*

      Well, they’re definitely taking it. I expressed my displeasure a third time (though I didn’t make any reference to who was taking the work, as that’s less relevant). I cited my other reasons and boss said he has some “ideas” on what other work I could do, so basically nothing at the moment. It’s two committees that I provided support for. I asked if I would still be needed at the meetings, and boss said no…but then said yes, they might need me, since I’ve been doing the work for a while. Not really looking forward to having to bring my co-worker up to speed on everything, but I will spend the weekend telling myself that it’s not her fault, because it’s not.

    4. OhBehave*

      If you are happy with this job and your boss, I would sit tight and wait. Do not state again that you do not want this work taken away. Three times is more than enough. It will look very good for you if you do what you can to help the new person with her new tasks.

      As for the new tasks your boss will have you do, be open about them. Maybe this will provide you with more responsibility.

      Of course, if you are not happy there then you need to start looking for a new job.

  46. rosiebyanyothername*

    I’m about to finish a huge project (my first for this position, I’ve been here since May), I set a company record with it and am super proud of myself… and my annoying male coworker is trying to take the credit. :/
    Last week he asked me a question, I answered him, and then he immediately looked up the answer to announce “wow, you WERE right.” Grr.

    1. Mazzy*

      Ha ha, I had annoying coworker technically leadinga project even though I was in real life. Which is why it tool a year instead of two months, because I kept giving him time to lead and analyze and research and he did nothing

    2. Lumen*

      I wish I had some advice, but these days it’s hard not to feel like companies are set up to allow this kind of behavior and punish women (in one way or another) if they speak up about it.

      If he does something rude (like looking up something you just told him and then acting shocked that you were correct), tell him it was rude. Act like you aren’t completely aware that his behavior is probably tied to your gender. Just say (as casually as you like) “That was a little rude, Fergus. Is it really that shocking that I know what I’m talking about?”

      This may be terrible advice, but stuff like this infuriates me, and I hate seeing it perpetuated because it is never called out. We’re just expected to take it with a smile.

      1. Laura*

        That’s very good wording. Better than mine, which would have definitely had the word ‘vagina’ in it.

        1. Boötes*

          Like

          “That was a little vagina, Fergus. Is it really that shocking that I know what I’m talking about?”

          or

          “That was a little rude, Fergus. Is it really that shocking that I know what my vagina is talking about?”

    3. Jules the Third*

      DOCUMENT document document

      Send weekly updates to your boss and (if there is one) project manager with your progress on this project. Since you’re near the end, do a catch-up summary with what you completed / contributed and when. Timelines are fun!

      Then go to your boss and say, out loud, to him: I’ve put in a lot of work on this project: examples A, B, C. I think Annoying Coworker (AC) is positioning himself to take credit for the project. Can you help me make sure that credit flows correctly, both to you and the broader company, and both now and at review time?

      If you can’t say this to your boss, you have a bad boss and need to leave.

      But either way, that documentation is the basis for you to claim this project, and your boss is the person to help you do it.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Many times, your career will depend on your ability to market yourself. And I mean that in the best way – letting people know accurate information to help them make good decisions.

  47. Stranger than fiction*

    Does the very nature of a work or office environment cause people to be two-faced?
    I sometimes feel really two-faced at work and feel really bad about it…but then I got to thinking about it and that maybe it’s not just me but that’s how work is.
    For example, I may really like coworker A in a lot of ways, but perhaps they have a work habit or two that drives me up a wall. Then coworker B may come along and we may talk about how Coworker A’s bad habit drives us nuts sometimes. Then coworker A may say to me something about how something coworker B drives them nuts…and on and on it goes.
    They’re not things that are worth taking up with coworkers directly, just like personality traits or lack of a skill they should be better at in my opinion. I try not to get wrapped up in others’ drama and usually just vaguely agree and deflect if a coworker is coming down hard on someone. But the fact of the matter is sometimes I do agree with what the other has to say (and when I don’t, I tell them I dont agree). I’m surr I do things that drive them nuts too.

    1. copier queen*

      Same thing goes on at my office. Co-worker A often vents with me about co-worker B, and I vent with co-worker B about co-worker A. I just assume that if someone is gossiping/venting with me, they may also gossip/vent about me occasionally. So co-workers A and B probably complain about me too…
      I figure it’s a coping mechanism for working with so many different personalities and skill sets.

    2. Manders*

      I think it’s not necessarily a particular type of office environment that causes this, but the fact that work often puts us in situations where we have to be polite and professional to people we otherwise wouldn’t choose to hang out with. It drives me up the wall when people are “two-faced” in social groups, but at work, sometimes we do have to publically get along with difficult people and then privately ask others if what they’re also having a tough time.

      Of course, there’s a real danger that this kind of stuff can turn toxic, especially in groups that are already fighting for limited resources or teams that don’t trust their managers to deal with problem employees (hoo boy, could I tell some stories about grad students and teachers getting absolutely vicious behind the scenes).

    4. Starbuck*

      Yikes, I’d recommend strongly against venting about coworkers to other coworkers. It’s a pretty toxic habit to get into and doesn’t solve any problems. I know it can be tempting to do under the guise of bonding, but the person you’re venting to is most likely going to assume you also vent about them to other people, and also be more willing to turn around and vent about you to someone else. So you’re not building any sort of goodwill. Best to just not get involved.

      Also be aware that it’s a choice you’re making to behave that way, not something that’s being forced upon you. You don’t mention any kind of dysfunctional management or work environment, so it doesn’t sound like this is some kind of coping mechanism to function in a toxic workplace.

    5. ..Kat..*

      I recommend not getting caught up in this. At first it can feel like you are bonding with one coworker with your mutual annoyance with another coworker. But, it just creates an environment of backstabbing and gossip. Having experienced this kind of environment before- and fallen into the trap of complaining about another coworker, I recommend doing something different. Maybe you could talk about how to effectively discuss the problems with bitched-about-coworker-X directly with coworker X. And/or, “maybe we should talk directly to coworker X. She may not know how she is affecting work-issue-Y. I hope if you have a problem with me that you would talk directly to me about it so that we could solve it.”

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, this. I have made a vow to not gossip about other coworkers at work, and I have stuck solidly to that vow for a year. It has made such a difference in my life. I’ve come to the conclusion that venting at work is not really helpful to me; all it does is ramp up my annoyance. If I have an issue, I talk to my boss about it. Period.

        There is one coworker who used to like to “vent” to me. His venting is really complaining about our mutual manager. I’ve decided that, the next time he does this, I’m going to say something like, “I can see this is really bothering you, but it’s putting me in a tough spot because Boss has been really good to me. Have you talked to Boss about it?” I suspect that, as soon as I stop being viewed as a sympathetic ear, he will stop with the venting. I just do NOT want to be involved.

  48. YetAnotherFed*

    So I talked to my supervisor about the next-door screamer, and supervisor went and gave screamer a firm talking-to yesterday. If screamer keeps it up, any advice/thoughts beyond keeping on notifying my supervisor? I’ve written down the number for the first floor security desk per supervisor’s advice and I’m now keeping my door locked at all times.

    1. Anna*

      I feel like I missed something very important. Where can I find the story of the next-door screamer?

      1. YetAnotherFed*

        In the open thread of two weeks ago, I wrote in that the dude in the office next to mine has screaming conversations at least a few times per week. At our agency people at a certain level get individual offices with doors that close. However our building was built by the lowest bidder so there’s really no soundproofing. Our agency does a lot of telephone and/or videoconferencing both internal to the agency and with customers so there’s a given amount of background noise that’s part of the job. However the screaming tone really breaks my concentration and puts me on edge when it happens. I can’t tell whether dude is speaking to a coworker, an external customer, or whether he’s having a private conversation when the screaming is occurring. And even if it’s a work-related conversation, there is nothing in our line of work that he should be screaming about.

  49. copier queen*

    Anyone ever been in a situation where someone gives you exactly what you have been asking for and hoping for, but you’re still worried that what you’ve hoped for is the best choice?

    My boss just approved for me to start working full-time 182 days per year (9-month position) instead of my current 260 days per year (12-month position). I’ll be taking about a 30% pay cut, but I’ll still be paid the same daily rate (just working fewer days). I’ll still have full benefits – health insurance, pension, etc. And I’ll be able to spend more time with our two young kids, and my aging parents – which is very important to me.

    I’ve run our household budget and we can manage okay on my reduced salary (as long as nothing crazy happens with my husband’s employment, which has always been steady).

    Still…HR has had the paperwork prepared for me to sign for over a week now, and I’m having trouble getting the gumption to walk over there and sign it. What is wrong with me???

    1. Rincat*

      Oh yes, I do that all the time. I think it’s just the fear of change. I got a new job earlier this year, after being in the same place for 7 years. My old dept is horribly dysfunctional, I was burned out, my work was suffering and I had zero drive. I landed a new position with a great new team and a good salary and title bump…and I was terrified I had made the wrong decision during my first week. I kept thinking back on all the “good” things about my old dept. But now that I’ve been in my new job for about 7 months, it was definitely the right choice.

      Good luck with your position! You will get used to it!

    2. Stelmselms*

      Getting full benefits with a 9 month position and spending more time with your kids and parents sounds pretty darn amazing! Maybe you’re just nervous about what you feel you would miss out on in the office during the three months you won’t be there? Since your boss is very supportive, try it out. If it doesn’t work for you, I’m sure he/she would let you bump back up to 12 months again.

      1. Lumen*

        This!

        Change is scary, and so is change related to income, and so is change related to our families. You’re not reacting weird at all.

        Make sure you keep socking funds away for emergencies as best you can. I’m sure once you start your new schedule and get adjusted to it, you will be thrilled that you did this. Think more about that than about the Terrible What-Ifs. You can’t control those. You can only control how much happiness you let yourself have in the moment.

      2. copier queen*

        Good point, Stelmselms – I feel sure my boss would bump me back up to 12 months if it’s not working for me.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Change is scary, and you are actually increasing your (and your family’s) risk level.

      My perception is that it’s normal for anxiety about increased risk to overwhelm enthusiasm for the increased benefits. One thing that helps is to make sure you’re assessing the risk accurately – sure, you’re making less, but you’re still employed. You think you can bump back up if it doesn’t work out. You ran the budget, but did you look at the lower costs, too? Less wear and tear on the car, more time for cooking or cost-cutting home projects with the kids.

      Lower the anxiety around the risks, focus on the benefits, and you’ll be ready to sign.

    4. ..Ka*

      This sounds like a great opportunity for you and your family. I have taken a similar cut in hours worked to be able to do more at-home-but-oh-so-necessary-stuff for my family. One thing that helped immensely was talking to my spouse about cutting our budget and putting that money aside in case we needed it for emergencies (i.e., emergencies that we could no longer cover as easily with our reduced income). This put my mind at ease about the reduced income. It also resulted in my spouse telling me how much my reduced hours (and therefore my ability to take on other home based tasks) made his life easier. For example, my spouse never has to take off work to be available for a repair person coming to our house. Another example, with my reduced hours, I have more days off. On those days, I take care of providing a delicious, nutritious home cooked meal for us. Planning, shopping, cooking, cleanup. My husband let me know how much this increases his quality of life. And he continues to let me know on a regular basis. My supporting him and his longer work hours benefits our family unit as a whole. Obviously, I am lucky to have someone who appreciates me as a whole package and partner in what we do together to provide for our family unit.

  50. J.B.*

    OK – I am dealing with a bureaucratic hiring platform, which is asking (deal breaker) questions about specific pieces of software. When you have experience with very similar software, what are the ethics of stretching the answer to those prescreening questions as much as possible while offering specific clarification in resume/cover letter? Plus playing around with demo versions of the specific software package of interest in advance of any possible interview.

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      Oh boy, there was some talk about this yesterday on the bad job seeking advice thread yesterday. Others probably disagree, but I say stretching a bit in certain circumstances is ok. It really really depends what program we’re talking about here. If it’s something you at least have some limited familiarity with and can pick up some more on you tube, maybe. If it’s something like salesforce that’s highly customized from company to company, but you can navigate the basics, ok stretch if it’ll get you in the door, if you’re the type that can pick up programs quickly especially. But if you need to know how to code and have never done it, no. If it’s a program you’ve never heard of, admit it but perhaps ask them what it’s similar to, you may have experience with something like it for all you know. Personally, I pick up programs very quickly from job to job and it’s a strength my previous managers can back up, so that may be why I can get away with an exaggeration here and there. But YMMV so be careful. If you know ahead of time some of the companies you’ interested in require skill in X, you could enroll in a course and say “certification in progress”.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Also it really depends if the skill is a nice to have or a dealbreaker. We put excel experience on every job post, but only like three people in the company can do anything more than enter data into a spreadsheet. Because for us being great with customers is more important.

      2. J.B.*

        Yeah, I have lots of experience with very similar packages, doing more of the nitty gritty coding, and lots less experience with their particular flavor of GUI. I can get a demo version of their GUI and then I think answer the question in good conscience. Because really, I’d usually write the code from scratch and can dive in there to debug!

        I’m thinking either they didn’t put a thought into these screening questions along the lines of 10 years experience in software that has only existed for 2 years, or they are writing it for someone internal.

  51. Anononon*

    Need to vent a bit and get some clarity from you good people. I work in a satellite site for a government funded program. It’s very likely our satellite is going to close down and our clients are going to be absorbed by the main site. Our clients don’t know yet, but staff do. although eventually our clients will know something’s up because we aren’t bringing in anyone new.

    The director of the main site met with each staff person to discuss options for each of us. Now, I moved over to the satellite location because significant changes were being made to my role at the main location. The gist of it is the position I was in went from full time to part time, so I moved over to a different role that is full time. It’s not a good fit, and I realized that quickly. So when the director was talking to me about options she said they would probably create another position like the one I’m in now at the main site. I flat out told her that it wasn’t a good fit for me and that I’m not sure I’d want to move over in the same role. I did go on and explain that it had a lot to do with feeling like I stepped into chaos, where everyone was reactive and clients weren’t held accountable. Director asked some blunt questions about some of the management at my location and I gave her some blunt answers. (We have a very ineffective manager right now who is so nice, but sooooo out of her league.)

    Director then tells me about another role they’re developing that I think would be amazing and interesting, but it looks like I’d be up against the ineffectual manager to get it. On top of that, it wouldn’t come to be until some time early next year (depending on how quickly the government agency that runs our program moves, and they tend to move slowly).

    So, was I crazy to tell director that I’m not a good fit for my current role? The director used to be my boss, and I’ve always had a pretty honest relationship with her, so I felt okay telling her. But now I’m worried.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Is there no option to have the new role (presuming you get it over ineffectual manager) and stay in current/similar position until the new role officially starts? Or get the role now and have even more direct impact into the scope/role/duties/oversight of the new position? Are you concerned now that you won’t get offered anything because you were honest about the fit?

      1. Anononon*

        A little bit. I mean, the director wouldn’t have brought it up if she didn’t think I could do it. But the new position will be an open call because it’s being created from whole cloth, so there’s no guarantee I would get it or ineffectual manager would get it if they found someone amazing off the street. Which would mean I’d be left having to take the role I’m in now AND have the director know I don’t like it. Or I could move on, which is not an outside possibility. I had been looking for a new gig after I realized I was having to take anti-anxiety meds 100% times more often than I do normally. (Normally I take them as-needed maybe two or three times a year; after I started “as-needed” became once a week.)

        1. WellRed*

          I understand why you are worrying you shouldn’t have said anything but honestly, the fact that you did means you really really really found the role a bad fit. It’s scary, but you know something needs to change and this may be that change.

          1. Jules the Third*

            I think honesty is best. You can’t fix something without identifying it for the people who have the power to make changes.
            Best case: you get this new role
            Worst case: you start job hunting. It’s a very good time to be job hunting.

  52. Mrs. Fenris*

    This is a question about higher education in the trades. My son is a senior in high school and is very interested in becoming a welder. He’s taking a high school/dual enrollment welding class that he loves. We have an excellent local technical school, but he just made contact with a recruiter from a for-profit school out of state. He loves this idea, but I have some concerns and I wasn’t sure who to ask. First of all, should I be concerned about it being a non-profit? I mean wrt the school’s quality and reputation (I already have concerns about the cost). How do I compare one school to another?

    2. Not That Jane*

      Check out the College Scorecard website at Ed.Gov – it gives useful comparisons of things like cost, graduation rate, and salary after attending that can really help families figure out if a given school is a good investment.

    3. Chriama*

      Assuming they’re both local, he should get in contact with employers. If there’s a union or something he can contact them, otherwise I guess just google local welders and start informational interviews. That’s a good practice anyway and one he’d be well served to learn early.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Find out if the school as a whole is regionally accredited and find out if there is some sort of national certification for Welders and, if so, is the school accredited by that body as well (assuming you’re in the US).

      For profit doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a scam, but you need to do your due diligence.

      Compare the curriculum of the local school and the out of state school. Ask about graduation and job placement rates for the program.

      1. Jules the Third*

        And the ‘for the [welding] program’ part is important. A lot of for-profit schools have… uneven success across different programs.

        Frankly, if the CC offers an accredited welding program, that’s going to be by far his best option. An out-of-state school will have limited local access to the equipment he’ll need to practice on.

    5. Hellanon*

      Go for the excellent local school, which will have worked with local/regional employers to align their curriculum with current and projected skills needs. You can also ask their career center to put you in touch with some of the companies they work with on placement, or with their workforce development office, who can give you an idea about that aspect of things. Then talk to the companies about the kinds of programs they prefer to hire from – this will give you MUCH BETTER information than you’re likely to get from a for-profit recruiter, particularly in the skilled trades.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yes, this. The local school will be invaluable for getting a job later – the instructors will know people, can steer him to good opportunities and give recommendations, etc.

    6. Nope*

      Stay away from the for-profit school. I happen to work at a CC with a good welding program, so they are out there, you just need to research a bit. Welding is a trade with great pay in my region. Good luck to your son, it is nice to see young people interested in trades!

    7. Aphrodite*

      Have you considered that your son may be more interested in living away from his parents than in that particular for-profit school, that it being out of state is the real enticement? Even if that is not a (conscious or unconscious) motivation, for-profit schools will recruit from anywhere they can. Their lifeblood are new students, and the education they provide is a secondary concern.

      Perhaps it might be worth considering, especially if the out-of-state school is sketchy, seeing if he can attend locally and live away from his parent’s home. Would you be willing to help him do that? Would he be willing to go to school part time and work full time? Can he share with several roommates and cut the cost of living on his own?

      1. Artemesia*

        Great advice. Even finding a CC that is in another part of the state or an out of state no profit. For profits are risky. But a young man graduating from high school is ready for some independence. Perhaps he can live in a share house with other students, or go far enough away in state to live away from home.

      2. Mrs. Fenris*

        I have zero problem with him living away from home! I wanted him to go away to a traditional four-year school, and I was more than a little bummed at the idea of having him at home for two more years. Not even so much to get him away from me, just an ideal of broadening his horizons. He likes the idea of getting away too, and so far he has been all about the local school except he was slightly bummed to find out they don’t have dorms.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      As someone who works in admissions at a university… please avoid for-profits. They are notorious for preying on people and giving them subpar educations. Graduation rates are typically very low.

      1. Artemesia*

        right. For profits generally spell high debt and low employability. so help him find a way to go away to college without falling into that trap, if only to go to the next city in the state with a good CC or tech program in welding.

    9. ..Ka*

      For profit trade schools historically give expensive, subpar training. They are excellent at convincing students to take out expensive loans. Loans that are difficult to repay when the graduate cannot get a job with the subpar education results in lack of job offers. Local technical/trade schools generally do a good job with training at reasonable cost. And, they tend to have links to the local community that help with job placement.

  53. Overeducated*

    When you’re making a move in your career, how do you value content vs. skills and activities – the kinds of issues or products you work on and mission of your organization versus the actual types of tasks you work on and how the work is organized? And where does pay fit in there?

    I’m thinking about this a lot lately and it seems there are tradeoffs. I have years of subject matter expertise in a relatively narrow area of a mission-driven sector. I also really like working on projects that I can get absorbed in, especially if they involve research and information design. I’ve been doing a lot of informational interviews and it seems like to keep working in my area and make a livable salary, I might have to take a job that is more bureaucratic and focused on administration, compliance, grant/project management, etc. Or to do more research and problem-solving, I could pursue the option of transitioning into a more corporate, less mission-driven environment with nothing to do with my subject area (and probably make a lot more money). But I’d have to get over the psychological hump of not working on things I care about after a decade of getting to do that. Maybe it would be fine…but maybe it would be soul-sucking!

    This is probably a common choice, so how have others balanced those values? Have you ever felt like you’ve made a stark choice and been thrilled with it, or regretted it?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Interesting question! I’m at a similar crossroads. My choice is not nonprofit vs. corporate vs. administrative, but I’m looking at status quo vs. four internal opportunities, and for the first time ever, I’m considering relo or heavy travel so I understand the weight of the shift you’re looking at.

      For the previous 17 years of my career, I tried to do what I thought I wanted to do (work I enjoyed), and I figured out that got me nowhere, and I figured out that as I grew, I no longer enjoyed doing the same work. While I don’t have the nonprofit experience, I would go where there is the best opportunity for the organization to grow, and therefore, for you to grow. You may start continuing the work you’ve been doing at a corporate job, but there may be even more interesting things there, too, that you could not imagine yourself as a fit for today.

      If you have a great career, you can participate in the mission on your own. I know that is a very corporate person thing to say, but I actually have a lot of opportunities to work on advancing engineering and diversity because of my corporate work. (I sit on a uni advisory board and am in leadership of one of our ERGs).

      1. Overeducated*

        The perspective on going where there’s opportunity for the organization to grow is interesting, and one I hadn’t really thought of. I am currently in a place where that’s not really possible (“starve the beast,” “drain the swamp,” etc.). Thanks for that thought.

        Right now I don’t like advice to participate in the mission as a volunteer on my own time just because I have very very little free time, but I like the idea of being able to do it in other ways through your corporate career. I’m glad you are finding those opportunities.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I just spent over a decade working in one very specific area. I have no chance of working in that area again unless I relocate, which I’m not in a position to do.
      But for me, the main thing I liked about the job was learning about new topics and using my skills to explore those topics. So now I’m promoting my ability to transfer those skills to new areas, depending on the company I’m applying to. Some areas sound fascinating, others less so, but I know I can generate some enthusiasm for whatever the topic is if my work is valued.

      It is hard to give up being an expert especially when you have cared about the subject for a long time, but there are always new things to become an expert in.

  54. Tris Prior*

    What’s a good response when someone (higher than you) on another team asks, “Why does no one on your team know anything about this project?” when the truthful answer is, “Because our boss didn’t tell us anything about it”?

    I don’t want to throw my boss under the bus by actually saying that. He is normally a great communicator. He was out of the office, and truly did not think that this project would come to us until he had returned. Unfortunately, that turned out not to be the case. When the request first came in, I gave the response “I’m not sure, but let me look into this and get back to you asap.” That led to the comment above so I guess they weren’t satisfied with my response. :(

    1. Anna*

      I think you can be honest without throwing anyone under the bus. You could say something like the project moved more quickly than expected, so you and your boss didn’t get a chance to meet to discuss it before he went out.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Me too. Being honest and matter of fact isn’t the same as outright insulting someone. I have this argument with my bf about his work all the time.
        Just say “oh we didn’t know about it.” instead of “Dang it Fergus did not loop us in again!”

        1. Tris Prior*

          I didn’t actually know until Boss was back and said that it wasn’t supposed to come to us this soon, that it was ahead of schedule. In my anxiety over someone being annoyed with me, I think I mentally defaulted to “oh crap! Boss didn’t go over this with us or assign it to anyone! That’s not like him! WTF? Why didn’t he warn anyone this was coming?” And I wasn’t going to say any of that out loud, which in my mind left me with no defense.

          But yeah, I could’ve spun it that way. Will remember that for future incidents, if they happen. I’m still pretty new here (and a pleaser by nature) so my brain right away goes to “oh crap” mode if someone seems displeased.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      The way to deal with is to recognize that the person is mostly venting. Look at them and say, I’m not sure, but what do you need on that project right away?
      That way you can soothe the situation by giving the person what they want, which is action on the project.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you could take the angle of “Apologies, I only heard about this project today/yesterday/Wednesday”. You’re not saying anything about who did/didn’t share information, you’re just honestly answering when you found out about the project without editorial comments.

  55. Junior Dev*

    I’m having my first article published on an industry site that’s well regarded in my field, and I wrote another article for my personal site. I have a second interview set up with a company where my friend works in two weeks. I’m giving a talk tonight at an event where I’m volunteering (still have to work on that).

    So I’m unemployed still, but doing a lot of positive stuff to change the situation.

  56. MsChanandlerBong*

    I’m annoyed with my boss. I started with the company as a freelancer; I did so well that they asked me to work part-time as an editor during our busy season. I just started back after having the summer off, and my boss presented me with a document of goals/objectives I am supposed to meet. One of the goals is to review 15 pages of work per hour. Now, I type 120 WPM, I read fast, and I maintain a high level of productivity, but that is not a reachable goal. I’d have to review one page every four minutes, which is not possible when the process involves downloading the submission, opening it, reading it, making changes in Track Changes, assigning a rating from 1 to 10, and leaving the writer a note with feedback/tips for improvement. I told him it was unattainable, but he won’t change the goal document. My coworker (I work from home, but we keep in touch via Skype) said that he has the same goal, and he has not reached it once in the three years he has been working there. So why have that goal at all? It’s demoralizing to know we’re never going to hit that milestone.

    1. KR*

      So not my boss but someone who handles KPI reports and what our work systems *should* look like has unrealistic expectations too. They make me laugh so much and they don’t reflect the realities of business. I would continue to do your best and let it sit on there as a goal and laugh about it in your spare time. Consider what would be a more realistic goal or what would make his goal possible – eliminating steps, faster PC, ect. so you have a response ready if he asks you about it. Good luck.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Thanks for the suggestions! I actually just bought a new laptop so I could work faster, so that’s something I can mention.

  57. Alice*

    At my annual review, my boss was very positive. It was a big deal — my grandboss and great grandboss had to push hard to get an “extra” slot in the top level of performance assessment categories. (“Extra” meaning that everyone who is up for promotion this year got the top level, and me too.) I was really glad that my management team appreciated what I’m doing.
    A few weeks later, my annual raise came out — 3.5%.
    The CPI inflation for the period was 2.2%, and my “normal” raise last year was 2.5%.
    What’s the point of this extra special performance assessment category if it’s a worth a one-percentage-point-higher increase? FYI in my last job I got 6% raises most years.
    Am I crazy to think the fuss doesn’t match the money?

    1. SoCalHR*

      Maybe the 1% extra IS a big deal for the company considering financial or market constraints? Its hard to know that if you’re not in a position to know the numbers. And different companies have different philosophies on CPI/COLA raises. Its probably best to focus on the fact that grandboss and greatgrandboss emphasized how well you are doing. Sorry you didn’t get the increase you were expecting, I know that always kind of sucks :-/

      1. Alice*

        Yeah, I’m trying to focus on what I have (the trust of management) instead of what I don’t (money) but it’s hard to focus on that sometimes.
        I think the month-long period between hearing the stack ranking and hearing the number probably made it worse — one’s mind has time to build castles in the sky.
        Thanks for the commiseration and the advice.

    2. Artemesia*

      When they start paying you in pretty words and pretty titles it is time to find someone who will pay you in pretty money. Maybe there are no options; but if there are open yourself to them.

      1. Alice*

        :)
        I love my profession, which is very secure and very intellectually interesting, but not going to make me Richie Rich. I thought I was ok with that. It’s not like I need any more money — it’s just a way of keeping score. But I want a high score to go with my, err, high score!

  58. Ally A*

    I’m hoping to get some advice re: my resume. I’m applying for a job that clearly states in the description to make sure that your application materials must address all of the required qualifications. One qualification is “Working knowledge of spreadsheets, word processing, and Google docs”. I do not have a “skills” section on my resume, as I thought it was a waste of space, but obviously, I use all of these things in my daily work life.

    My question is – do I need to re-add this section and list “experience with Microsoft Office Suite and Google docs”, and then come up with other skills so that is not the only thing, or is there a way to put this into a cover letter? Or somewhere else on my resume?

    1. Murphy*

      Can you shoehorn it into another job duty area? Like “Utilized Excel spreadsheets to track long term llama birthing rates and compile annual reports”, where you wouldn’t normally have to specify Excel spreadsheets?

      2. wirving*

        I do a variation of this. I have a technical skills section at the bottom of my resume where I list the relevant programs I know, and then incorporate those programs into my job duties to help show my level of experience with each.

    2. J.B.*

      Are you doing a cover letter? IDK I’d address something like that in a cover letter and use resume space to highlight a product of the spreasdheet – i.e. streamlined some business process using macros – so you only give a word or two to the technology and focus more time on the business result.

      1. Ally A*

        I am doing a cover letter, just not sure how to incorporate it. And, this is not an entry level office job, so I was a little confused with why it was even listed. It’s a manager level position that would oversee multiple programs and the other qualifications are things like ability to analyze and interpret data and make independent decisions, and ability to meet expectations in a fast-paced and dynamic, customer-oriented environment.

        Also, I use google docs/spreadsheets constantly, but not in a way that is some sort of achievement.

        1. J.B.*

          I had a similar thought on something I’m applying to – they probably didn’t think well about the requirements. Probably keep the cover letter focused on things like your ability to do things like in the sentence “It’s a manager level position…” and add something to it about using several different software packages, like google docs and excel. That way you’ve followed instructions and said something. And think if you were hired for the position you could recommend they work on their job ads!

  59. M is for Mulder*

    “Theoretical” situation. Jaimie is a moderately-high performer who was twice passed over for promotion in the past few years. The first time was in favor of a different internal candidate, the second time was an external hire. Both times Jaimie was competitive, but lost out to someone just slightly better. Jaimie has just applied for a third position, for which you are on the decision committee. It seems likely (but was never actually stated by Jaimie) that there’s only so long Jaimie will tolerate this stagnation. Assuming that Jaimie’s interview goes as well as the last two did, do you encourage the hiring committee to take into account Jaimie’s possible flight risk when making their recommendation?

    1. Murphy*

      Assuming that he’s a good enough employee that you really don’t want to lose him, then I think it’s relevant information.

    2. Snark*

      Yeah, if he’s a moderately high performer, that’s relevant information. If I’d been passed over twice, I wouldn’t stay after a third. I don’t think you want to lose an above-average employee.

    3. Chriama*

      I think it’s relevant but consider all the aspects. It’s likely that someone who’s been consistently been denied the opportunity to move up within the company will seek those opportunities elsewhere. But don’t let that thought hold you hostage. If the other candidates are truly better, you should hire the best candidate. He might leave, but that happens in business and there’s no guarantee that he wouldn’t leave after this promotion anyway.
      On the other hand, if he’s 90% and the other candidates are 95% then I would say losing his institutional knowledge probably isn’t worth a candidate who’s only slightly better. If it’s like 75% vs 95% it might be worth losing him, and if it’s like 50% vs 95% then it almost certainly is.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, pretty much this. I suspect if Jaimie isn’t the most spectacular person ever, they just aren’t going to get promoted here and probably should be a flight risk for good reason, and having “Jaimie might quit” brought up in a meeting will just make people feel forced into picking them.

        Then again, I’ve been passed up for promotion three times in my office and yet I’m still here, so.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Although you don’t say so, if you are Jaimie’s supervisor, I hope that you will be understanding if he doesn’t get this promotion and offer to provide him with a good reference and recommendation, and also to accommodate him as he begins a job search in outside organizations.

  60. licoricepencil*

    I’ve posted a couple times in the weeks before about my boyfriend who was looking for an attorney position. I just wanted to post an update that he received an offer for an official attorney job! He’s so happy and relieved. It’s definitely not an area of law or a state that he expected to practice in, but he really liked the vibe of the firm when he went in to interview.

    Thanks to everyone who offered advice!

  61. Not That Jane*

    I’m on the flip side of a situation someone asked about this week: I’m pregnant, and very sick, but not ready to share the news at work yet. But, I’m worried that it will be obvious – I’m constantly snacking on bland foods, taking irregular breaks from teaching, and once was almost caught retching into the classroom trash can by a student. I’ve also missed work more than once.

    Any scripts / suggestions for how to be low-key, but reassuring, until I’m ready to share?

    1. Friday*

      Congratulations! I was you a few months ago and honestly, if anyone had asked me what was up or if I was preg, I was prepared to white-lie that I was dealing with a flare-up of a medical condition that I have which is not contagious, and I was getting good medical help, thanks for their concern, end subject. Thankfully nobody asked.

    2. Lumen*

      What Friday said. “Oh, I’m not feeling too well these days, but I am getting medical care and it’s under control. Don’t worry, it’s nothing contagious. Thanks for asking!”

      (Also be prepared for a lot of “I KNEW it!” when you do decide to share the news with your coworkers.)

      But if any smug busybodies flat-out ask you if you’re pregnant, I wouldn’t even dignify the question. Just tell them that’s a very personal thing to ask a coworker (which it is!) and then return to the script above if they don’t catch the hint and start apologizing.

    3. HannahS*

      I think if they say something like, “Hey, Not That Jane, are you ok?” you can say something like, “You know, I haven’t been feeling too well lately. I’m pretty sure it’s getting better though” or “Yeah, I’ve been feeling pretty sick, but I think I’m on the mend.” Then, key, steer the conversation away from your health and onto a bland topic like, “I’m so glad it’s cooling off. What a summer, eh?”

    4. kw10*

      A coworker of mine was telling everyone for weeks that she was throwing up because of a recurring stomach virus. It seemed completely plausible and I was shocked when she announced her pregnancy!

  62. Moi*

    I cam across a job that would be literally perfect for me in every way, except that it seems to require a small-moderate amount travel, and with two small children I am only interested in a *very* small amount of travel. Is it worth applying anyway, or should I just write this one off?

    1. Rincat*

      I would apply, and if they interview you, you can ask them to elaborate on the travel requirements. It may be that their “moderate” is okay with you, or it could be way too much.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      It would also be worth understanding if that means day-trip travel or overnight travel.

      There are some jobs I’ve applied for that would be a lot of travel within my metro area, but nothing overnight or requiring a flight, etc.

    3. Emmie*

      It depends on your definition of “very small.” What exactly is that? And we don’t know what their “small-moderate” amount of travel is. I would likely apply, but ask both the Recruiter and Hiring Manager during phone interviews about the number of days of travel, the distance, etc… I’ve had jobs that said 10% travel, but we really want the person to travel 1-2xs per year for 2-3 days at a time. I know my position was rare. My guess is that your “very small” travel is less than their “small moderate” travel.

    4. K.*

      Apply and then ask specific questions about travel – how many days out of the year, how many days at a stretch, how far away would you be traveling, etc. You might not be able to make 4 5-day international trips work, but maybe 10 overnight local trips per year would be possible, you know? Same number of travel days but each looks pretty different.

    5. neverjaunty*

      Worth taking a look, but with a suspicious eye. IME, no company ever ends up requiring LESS travel than they advertise, and it’s almost always more than you expected – and once you’re hired it’s very difficult to turn it down. Definitely find out what is meant by travel and get hard specifics.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        I now travel less than I did when I started my current job, because our team meetings have been rationalised and because of staff changes I dial into some now. I used to travel about every 3 weeks; I’ve not been to the main office for three months at present.

        It might be rare but it can happen.

    6. Lumen*

      The answer is always ‘apply for the job’. The worst thing that happens is that you interview and you and the company both realize it’s not a good fit. Shake hands, move on with life. Take the opportunity to ask lots of questions. Amount of travel is absolutely on the table for negotiating if you get an offer, just like salary and benefits!

  63. Lolly Scrambler*

    I went for an interview earlier today and was asked what was my preferred management style and how it compared with the management style at my current job. I talked about the style of a previous manager as if they were my current manager and how much their style “suits” (actually, suited) me. I feel bad about it but also like there wasn’t much else I can do since I know saying bad things about your current manager is a huge no no (reality: current management is total chaos). In order to improve my chances of getting another job I faked loving aspects of my job I don’t really love. I wish going for an interview didn’t make me feel like I have to be so fake but I am in a tough field that puts a premium on enthusiasm.

    1. Lolly Scrambler*

      I mean if I loved my job and management that much why would I even be trying to get another job?

  64. Crylo Ren*

    Not really asking for advice, just a rant. A former boss emailed me the other day. As soon as I saw her name pop up in the “From” field my stomach just dropped. I waited until I got home to read it and it ended up just being one of those “hey, how’s it going” types of emails but of course she did end it with a “oh, btw, I’m going to this *awesome conference you were never allowed to go to because we never thought you were worth spending the money on*”

    Classic tactic of hers, she was always good at throwing in a little sting when I least expected it. First time we met, she sneered at my engagement ring (“oh, I didn’t know you were *really* engaged. I thought you were just wearing a promise ring”). gahhhh!!!

    I’m glad I can just roll my eyes and delete the email now. So glad that job and that boss are behind me.

    2. Sole*

      So gross! And how sad for her, to be emailing former employees to insult-brag about a conference of all things?! Congrats on escaping:)

  65. Sleepy Tumbleweed*

    Given that much of hiring (particularly in the initial phases) may be handled by HR or someone without specific knowledge of niche industry terminology (rather than a hiring manager, who hopefully should) how much industry-specific terminology is it wise to include in your resume/cover letter? Obviously if a term appears in the vacancy announcement, it should be fine, but what about other highly specific names of certifications, software, industry standards, strange acronyms that no one IN the field would EVER spell out in full, etc.? Do you think heavy use of these terms is likely to help or hinder you in getting past an initial review by a non-expert (assuming they would indeed be relevant to an expert)? Or should you “dumb down” your documents to better mirror the vocabulary used in the vacancy announcement, even if this conveys far less specificity about your experience and qualifications?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      In every organization I’ve worked in, recruiters are tied to a portfolio of departments so they are able to become at least conversant in the vocabulary of the position. And in every process I’ve ever participated in, the recruiter makes recommendations on who to advance, but doesn’t toss out any resumes without at least giving the search committee or hiring manager a chance to take a look at them. So I would say you can write your cover letter in a way that would make sense to people with experience in the field.

  66. Java the Hutt*

    I’ve been at my current job for seven months. For the first time ever, boss and grandboss have invited all six people in our newly formed team to attend this free third-party seminar during after-work hours (6-9:30 pm). I’ve attended our work events after work in the form of parties, but I really want to draw the line there. After spending a whole day at work, the last thing I want to do during my personal time (and dinner/wind-down time) is listen to a three-hour presentation. I’m also concerned that once I say yes, it’ll be expected of me for future events. Should I just suck it up or can I say no? If so, how?

    1. Snark*

      “I’m sorry, I’m booked up after work. Hope it’s great!”

      But you do have to consider whether you’d be burning capital you don’t need to burn, passing on a one-time event. You may want to also consider doing this one, if it’s got genuine value to you and your work, but ask “Is it likely that seminars like this will be a regular thing, moving forward? Generally, evenings are not good for me, and I can make exceptions for exceptional events but wouldn’t be able to commit if they were scheduled regularly.”

    2. Alice*

      This was an invitation, right? So unless you have some other reason to think they are going to be pushy about it, I’d consider it an invitation (not a command performance) and decline — cheerfully, and making it sound like you’re glad that they thought to include you. If you think it’s actually a disguised command, maybe you need to do something else.

      1. Java the Hutt*

        It was framed as an invitation, but there was some pushiness in the tone, if that makes sense.

        1. Alice*

          Hmmm. I don’t like the idea of giving a reason not to attend this time, because then it starts to be a negotiation/excuse. But maybe it would work to say something like “I won’t be attending this time, but I really appreciate you sharing this with me. Topic is so big right now; I’m always interested in learning more about it.” That keeps the door open for more networking invitations. Good luck!

  67. NatKat*

    My background is an all around HR Coordinator. I don’t have a degree, but because I work really hard and show a lot of initiative I have been able to work on different projects through the reorg of CurrentJob’s HR department (recruitment, HR Tech, employee relations). I am looking to move on and a position at DreamCompany has opened in a lower level position and not HR, think receptionist type position. I have heard through old colleagues who work there now that HR is notoriously hard to get in there. Would it be wise for me to apply for the lower level job I know I can do to get a “foot in the door”. Or should I hold out for an HR opening?

    2. WellRed*

      I feel like Alison has warned against getting a foot in the door by taking a position in a track you aren’t interested in.

    3. Durham Rose*

      Hold out for the HR position, don’t sell yourself short! Think of wasting years at a reception desk as well as wasting all your HR skills!

    4. W31RD0*

      What real evidence do you have that would suggest that working as a receptionist/admin type of role would help your case with HR? Does the company have a reputation for only hiring from within? I would assume you would be taking a cut in pay, and now lessening your actual experience in HR since you would be leaving your current HR role. That doesn’t sound advantageous.

      I am not all that familiar with the HR field. But I am sure there are other ways of making yourself a more viable candidate.

    5. periwinkle*

      I agree with others – don’t assume a receptionist position will help you move into the HR department. It sounds like you’re getting a solid grounding in the field but it could be tough to move forward without a degree (HR or otherwise). Certification could help. The aPHR (https://www.hrci.org/our-programs/our-certifications/aphr) is designed as an entry-level certification and requires only a high school degree. How long have you been an HR Coordinator? The PHR certification requires exempt-level experience but the SHRM-CP counts non-exempt HR work; with no degree, you’d be eligible to sit the exam with 4 years of experience. Not that certification is a magic wand to get you into DreamCompany’s HR department, but it helps to anchor your experience.

      Maybe you should look for an HR role (a real HR role!) at Not-DreamCompany to get the experience that makes you much more competitive for DreamCompany HR job openings.

  68. Friday*

    Company dealing with disaster…. we are in the CA fire zones and as of right now, half of my coworkers are displaced from evacuation and a handful have lost their homes. Schools have been closed all week and no commitment to opening up on Monday. Shout-out to my awesome work where nobody batted an eye earlier this week when I brought my kindergartner into work so I could work for a few hours as our home internet was still down. (Also shout-out to Ipad, to crayola, to Disney movies on said ipad, etc.). Anyone else living and working through the inferno? If so, stay safe!

    3. Anon for this*

      Yup, I’m in Santa Rosa. My work has been closed all week, but my husband (owns his own business) went back to work yesterday. Luckily I work for the government so I know my job will still be there when this is all over! I kept my toddler home all week, even though daycare is open. I’m still ready to evacuate, in case the predicted winds tonight become a problem.

      1. Friday*

        Hopefully these winds turn out to be nothing much, just like Thurs night. Looks like they are finally able to work toward containment. We live by the airport and there have been a ton of planes flying in and out with the fire retardant stuff, heading toward geyserville and over to the north part of the Tubbs fire.

        Still packed and ready to move if necessary though!

    4. Jennifer Thneed*

      I came here wondering if anyone had written about our local troubles. Thank you.

      For those who know the area, I’m in Berkeley. We’re getting ash-fall here but aren’t in any immediate danger. We’ve got a fire refugee in our house (a friend’s cat) and I have a dear cousin in Santa Rosa who is okay (and who has an open offer to use my shower). Our animals are getting crazy not getting to go outside. We probably are, too, actually. I walked 3 blocks to a cafe this morning and won’t do that again. I apparently am a brisk walker! and I had to stop to cough, and told myself to slow down.

      Many of local school districts are entirely closed because of air quality being crap. My workplace is further south and so unaffected. I’ll report back. All the crap in Puerto Rico is really upsetting, and all the trouble in the North Bay counties – that’s really upsetting also.

  69. loud coworker*

    I have a coworker who sits about 10 feet away (low walled cubes) who grunts and sighs while she’s wearing headphones, like their music is too loud that they can’t hear themselves. They’re also very sensitive to any perceived slights, so I’m trying to figure out the best way to kindly tell them they’re disruptive to the office (I’m not the only one who has noticed or is distracted by it). Ideas?

    1. Sole*

      Is an anonymous note a terrible suggestion? I don’t know, maybe it’s not the most ethical way, but it would get the issue out in the open without any traceable blow back…unless they were upset with everyone, or took it to mgmt as an issue. Sorry you’re struggling with this!

      1. loud coworker*

        There are only seven of us in the office, so it would end up being a bigger deal than necessary. It can be a catty place sometimes, but that’s an entirely different issue.

    2. Lumen*

      I. Feel. You. My office has low cube walls too, no white noise generators, and several highly sensitive/petty personalities.

      Coworker behind me slams her keyboard/dock/mouse on her desk regularly, stomps her feet, laughs aloud in this awkward way trying to get someone to ask her why, mutters to herself constantly.

      Coworker next to me regularly comes in sick and coughs and hacks and sniffs all day. Sometimes she makes the weirdest noises (almost lewd-sounding). There is a LOT of frustrating sighing.

      Coworker a few cubes down listens to headphones so loud that we can hear her music through them.

      But me? I say nothing. I like all three of these coworkers, but I also know it would CAUSE DRAMA if I were to suggest that they were disruptive or distracting, and I know our supervisor (whom I also really like) is loathe to stir up anything she doesn’t absolutely have to.

      So I put in my headphones. I take deep breaths. I think to myself “If this is the most annoying thing I deal with today, I’m doing all right.”

      And when Coworker behind me gets aggressive enough with her equipment to shake my cube walls, I sometimes gently say “You okay over there?” Not always. I don’t always need to hear her rant about the faulty dock she has never reported to IT. :)

    3. Helpful*

      Honestly, I would find a way to ignore it. It is probably unconscious, so even if she wanted to improve, it would be difficult to do so. Add the drama llama to the mix, and I’d pass on it. My sympathies; that sounds mega-annoying.

  70. rosiebyanyothername*

    Something I’ve been thinking about lately… My department has super high turnover, and my manager is convinced this is due to the department not being “familial” enough and we need to “bond more.”
    We’ve had lots of after-work happy hours and teambuilding things, which is fine, but now my manager is pushing for us to do more weekend activities together as well. I think that’s kind of overstepping? I just don’t feel like I need to be ~BFFs~ and get brunch (at my own expense!) with my coworkers in order to do well at this job. I think work/life balance should also entail some work/life separation… or at least the chance to spend time with my actual family rather than my “work family.” Thoughts?

    1. paul*

      I’d push back hard on that. I’d resent the hell out of giving up my weekends and evenings; those are for family and friends and no, my colleagues are NOT family for god’s sakes. I’ve got a spouse, parents, kids, a nephew, a few buddies….I’d rather spend time with them, thanks.

      1. Snark*

        All of this. And I think you can say that. “Boss, I have actual family I’d like to be familial with, and I do value separation between my work and home lives. My coworkers are great people, but they’re not my family.”

        1. rosiebyanyothername*

          Yeah, I might try to push more towards the after-work activities or even during-work stuff (like lunches or coffee breaks with the team). The extra weird element is my manager is always encouraging us to bring along our significant others? I’m sorry, but my boyfriend does not to meet my coworkers. Especially because he knows lots of dirt on them from me complaining about work to him, lol.

    2. Banana in Pajamas*

      Um, yes it is overstepping. No one wants to spend their weekend being “familial” with coworkers. For those with Monday-Friday work hours, the weekend (as you mentioned) is a time for my work/life separation. Being with coworkers 6-7 days a week doesn’t allow any time for unwinding and getting your mind off of work. Also, if the super high turnover is partly due to toxic employees, people certainly aren’t going to want to get together with people who remind them why they dislike their jobs.

    3. Snark*

      And just to expand on my post above under Paul: bosses, there is no such thing as “work family” and one’s coworkers are not their family and being expected to spend time with them on the weekends to “bond” would make most people start sending out resumes, so if you are having turnover problems, maybe focus on LITERALLY ANY OTHER SOLUTION besides encroaching on what little time people have to attend to their own lives and hobbies and families. Jesus Christ. My child already spends more time at daycare during the week than he spends with his own parents, and if my bosses suggested that I come to brunch with them instead of taking a hike with him, I’d be out within a month. Guaranteed.

    4. Alice*

      Maybe the high turnover is due to not paying as much as other employers in the city? Your manager could research that. :)

    5. Lumen*

      I have never left a job because my coworkers and I weren’t enough of a ‘family’. No one I know has ever left a job for this reason.

      My job gets 5 out of 7 days nearly every week of my life. They do NOT get the time I reserve to take care of myself, my home, or my friends.

      Push back hard. Let your boss know why you DO stay at this job. Also make sure they understand that weekends and time AWAY from work and coworkers is vital for employees to stay balanced and motivated.

      I am personally really tired of the expectation that my coworkers be not just my best friends but my ‘family’. Ugh. Get outta here with that!

    6. Beancounter Eric*

      Push back – HARD!!

      Part of why you have high turnover may be that people don’t want a “familial” workplace environment – or that the workplace is toxic, or the pay is subpar, or that the boss is an idiot…etc.

      I’d be interested to see if the people who quit are the ones who would prefer to avoid the Happy Hour/Teambuilding blech, and would prefer to come to work, do a good job, and go home.

    7. Work Wardrobe*

      One of the things Alison likes to tell us is that pushing back as a group may be more effective.

      I would not, in a million years, give up weekend time for a “bonding” exercise.

    8. Artemesia*

      “I am covered up with family responsibilities on weekends, so that doesn’t work for me.” Be enthusiastic for things that occur during the work day.

      What a bummer. What a doofus for thinking that turnover occurs because the job is not sucking up private time for forced brunching.

    9. HA2*

      Thoughts: not only is manager overstepping, they’re not very good at their job.

      Lots and lots and lots of workplaces have low turnover without also spending lots of after-work time doing non-work activities. If your manager is unable to identify the real reasons people are leaving and is instead hoping that personal loyalty and friendship, generated by mandatory or strongly suggested after-work time together, will keep people there, they’re wrong and they’ll cost their company a lot of money.

  71. Risky Researcher*

    So I have a dilemma. I am an intern (was an intern?) at an organization that is in a field I am getting my Masters in. It is by no means my first job, but it is only my second “professional/office” job. My supervisor and his boss have been very happy with my work and have been talking to moving me to full-time employee status for the last five months. However, my supervisor’s boss came down with West Nile virus (right?!) and has been hospitalized since June. Needless to say things have been crazy. I have been working full time (with permission) to help ease the work load of my supervisor, who was so pleased he went directly to the owner and requested not only full time exempt status for me, but also a substantial raise. And the owner said yes, and that it is approved! Here is the thing, that was a month ago and I have yet to hear any progress on it. HR hasn’t been in touch, and the raise hasn’t come through. I asked my supervisor once about the status and he said he would call HR, I offered to do it but as I wasn’t copied on the approval email (he showed me after) he didn’t think it prudent and says it has to come from him. That was two weeks ago and still nothing. How much should I be bugging him about this? I know he is super busy doing basically two jobs, but I am without health insurance and am kind of getting nervous that it might not happen, or the raise won’t be the substantial one mentioned in the email that I’ve been getting my hopes up about.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      in my experience, people are usually happy when you remind them, because it’s easy to let this stuff slip and they don’t mean to put you in this position.

    3. Reba*

      Go ahead and remind him. He probably doesn’t want you to be without health insurance (!) and with all that’s going on, may not realize how urgent this is for you.

  72. Tableau Wizard*

    I’m asking this for a coworker, but I’m writing it in first person, because it feels easier:

    How do I handle being rejected for an internal promotion when I really feel I’m better than the other candidate (there are only two of us)?

    My boss was recently promoted and her old position opened up. There were two of us naturally positioned to be considered for the job. I applied and have been through three interviews at this point. My gut says they’re going with the other candidate, though I really think I’m the better choice – others in my organization have confirmed this – but technically the other candidate has been with the organization for a little while longer. I’m getting the news in the next week. I know my old boss will be the one delivering the news (she’s also the hiring manager), but I don’t know how to be on the receiving end of that conversation. How do I maintain my composure when I’ll be devastated by the news?

    I don’t think I’ll be ready for feedback in the initial conversation. Is it okay to ask to hear the feedback after a bit of time has passed?

    What else should I do to prepare or do after the fact?

    1. Murphy*

      This happened to me! I wasn’t expecting it either. When they told me, they did it in person at the end of the day. I was pretty calm in the room, but generally I did not maintain my composure. I told them I had to leave, and I grabbed my stuff and left the building. I managed to keep the tears in until I got to my car, but I think it was obvious that I was about to cry.

      I went back to my boss at a later time and asked for a conversation about why they had chosen this other person. If they had offered that kind of feedback at the time (they didn’t even tell me who they had chosen in the moment, they had interviewed a few outside people as well) I would not have been ready for it. I think it’s totally OK to say that you’re not ready for it in the moment. My boss was happy to talk to me about it later.

      If I knew that it was coming…I probably would have just rehearsed responses. Brief, to the point, and in the interest of politely getting out of the room as soon as possible to go be disappointed in private.

      I also had random volunteers at the organization coming up to me for weeks saying things like “I can’t believe they hired Jane instead of you. I don’t know what they’re thinking” which was simultaneously gratifying and infuriating. I didn’t love that job anyway, but this was the final straw for me, so after a brief mourning period, I kicked my job search into high gear and got a new job a few months later. That was right for me, but it may not be right for you. I’m sorry you’re going through this :(

    2. stej*

      This is something I’ve been working on, too. Taking bad news is hard. Taking negative feedback is hard, especially if you disagree.

      I am pretty darn stubborn and my first instinct is to be defensive, which benefits no one in the end. Telling your manager that you will need time to digest the news is perfectly fair, and should be respected by a reasonable boss.

      Keeping composure, in my experience, has been about keeping things in perspective and considering my own next steps. After getting rejected for the promotion I asked for and felt I deserved, I felt perfectly fine looking elsewhere to see whether I was as marketable as I hoped I was and if those positions were really what I wanted. Having something to *do* next really helps keep the feelings under control, even after the fact.

      I’m still learning, and I think the next step will be meditating and taking care of my own mental state.

    3. Snark*

      “How do I handle being rejected for an internal promotion when I really feel I’m better than the other candidate (there are only two of us)?”

      I mean….honestly? Your coworker is not the judge of that. She can’t be. She doesn’t just have a dog in the fight, she IS the dog in the fight. Others in the org might be on her side, but they’re not making the decision either.

      My advice is, when the news comes down, your coworker should practice the line, “I appreciate you letting me know, though of course I’m incredibly disappointed. Can I take some time to digest the news before we discuss feedback?”

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        That’s great wording! Thank you!

        I’m trying not to come down on her for thinking she’s a better fit because frankly, I agree that she’s the better choice. I haven’t worked here long, but I know both candidates and from my perspective the coworker I’m referencing is a better choice to move the organization in the direction that it needs to go.

        1. Snark*

          Don’t get me wrong! She might very well be. She probably is; I believe you. But I think it’d be a very wrong step for her to advocate for herself being the better choice after the decision is made.

          1. Tableau Wizard*

            I totally agree with that. Once the decision is made, she needs to just take it and believe in her leaders that they know more than she does. She will have to report to this person after all.

  73. Sara*

    Do people have thoughts on requesting tasks be reassigned to a more appropriate coworker? I have a few tasks that have been directly assigned to me by my boss in the past (and it has been strongly suggested that it was because my coworker who previously handled it did not want to anymore) but that really don’t make sense for someone in my position to tackle. Example – I do marketing for an auction house and have been asked to run catalog photoshoots, but no one on the catalog team assists on the shoots and I never have necessary information on the pieces being photographed to really get proper catalog shots and end up spending so much time trying to figure out what is what that I don’t have time to get the marketing shots I need.

    On the one hand, the task has been assigned to me and I suppose if my boss truly wants me to handle it I will continue to, but I just am not the logical person to handle the task. Advice?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      This is a tough one. Usually if someone else (not your boss) asks you to do something that isn’t your job, you can say “that’s not my job” or (if you have a good boss) your job can talk directly to that person and say that isn’t your job.

      But this assignment is coming directly from your boss, so your boss clearly thinks it is your job. I think the best kind of pushback you can give in this case would be evaluating your workload with your boss if you think this new assignment adds too much of a strain and could adversely affect other projects you’re working on. The other approach you could take is the “I’m not qualified to do this” approach (since it isn’t part of your job and you can’t do this non-part-of-your-job job well, you don’t want it to be done badly).

      1. DC*

        Also very interested in this- recently had a similar issue. It took a year of me saying “this really belongs with someone else” for them to finally listen, but it’s looking like it may start happening again. (This role needed to be someone who had more leverage to make decisions/push others for decisions.)

  74. Seal*

    Any advice on how to distance yourself from a former mentor? I became a librarian a decade or so ago after years of working as a library paraprofessional, so kind of a career change. A few years in, a far more experienced librarian that I met through a professional association took me under her wing as an informal mentor. Due to her status in the organization I was afforded a few opportunities not generally available to new librarians, which I naturally pursued. Unfortunately, as my career progressed over the next few years, I came to realize that my mentor was not giving me good advice, was using me to further her own agenda in the organization, and was generally not as well-regarded as I had been lead to believe; much of this came to light in the year or so before she retired. Due to a great deal of hard work on my part, I was able to compensate for many of the blunders I had made at her behest due to my own naivete and for the most part salvage my professional reputation, largely by making it clear that I was distancing myself from her.

    I had hoped that when she retired that it would be the last I heard from her, as we never worked at the same organization or even in the same state and she regularly told everyone who would listen about all of her plans for retirement. Except, after retiring almost 2 years ago now she still emails me every so often asking for updates on the organization while offering bad advice and asking me to get back to her. After her first message, I stopped responding, but after all this time she hasn’t gotten the hint. I don’t want to tell her off, but at the same time I’m feeling a bit guilty about ghosting her. How do I get her to leave me alone?

    1. Snark*

      I think you could send a very brief email saying. “Dear Mentor – Hope you’re enjoying retirement. I am not able to provide you updates you on Organization and its internal issues moving forward. Thanks for understanding.”

      Also, damn, the stories we’ve heard about machiavellian librarians this week!

        1. Seal*

          I thought I had filtered her emails to my deleted items folder but her most recent one wound up in my inbox, which is how I found out she’s still trying to contact me. Much as my passive-aggressive librarian nature is resisting (I’m trying to change that!), I may have to send her a version of Snark’s example in response.

      2. ..Ka*

        How about ” I can’t bring myself to intrude on your well deserved retirement. I will always remember what you have done for my career.”

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you answer with non-answers? I mean, she might just be trying to be social. Something like, “Organization is doing () and (). I’ve been super busy with () and ().”

      Sign off with something friendly and move on? You’re not obligated to tell her anything substantial or take her bad advice. It comes down to whether or not you are comfortable burning a bridge with her. If you are, than language like Snark suggests would work, but it reads a little harsh to me.

    3. Work Wardrobe*

      I would wait a while to respond to each email ( a week or more?) and then say stuff that is so general it means nothing.

      “Things are great, job is fine, looking forward to the holidays, have a nice day.”

  75. Christiana*

    First day of onboarding at my new job today! Feeling pretty overwhelmed with all the new people, new logins, new way of working… I’ve never worked at a consultancy and had an external client. Have only had internal clients. So it’ll be interesting to adjust. Even though I’m a contractor, I’m treated as a full time person, which is nice. I just want to skip forward so I’m comfortable.

    1. Lumen*

      I think the first step in getting comfortable is what you’ve just done: acknowledge that you’re uncomfortable! And you’re right… it’s just because it’s all new. Starting a new job can be so overwhelming. Give yourself some slack and a wide margin for stress. Remind yourself that you will eventually settle in, because you’re awesome and good at what you do. It’s just a matter of time. :)

  76. SophieChotek*

    Micro-Managing Boss…

    I have one of those. What are your greatest/most horrifying stories about your micr0-managing boss?

    (Mine is that my boss did not like what everyone else agreed was perfectly fine business casual/business formal attire and literally made me wear her dress & shoes to an event. — And yet I saw people wearing exactly what I would have worn to that event. And in the office I tended to be dressed on par with other people; one employee always came just wearing sweat pants and wore bunny slippers…). Oh well.

    [If this should be on open-thread instead, my apologies!]

    1. Elizabeth West*

      A boss (female) asked my coworker (also female) what kind of underpants she had on. We figured she might have thought coworker had panty lines.

      When she told me, my mouth dropped open. I said “Turn around,” looked, and saw nothing. We were like, “WHY WOULD SHE BE LOOKING AT YOUR/MY ASS????” She was wearing black trousers that day, but maybe boss noticed some on a day when coworker had different pants on. It was incredibly weird.

    2. Sylvan*

      One picked a specific employee to micromanage for months at a time. I was lucky: It was never me.

      People in our workplace dressed pretty casually. People generally pulled themselves together a little bit more to attend meetings. Think wearing pants that weren’t jeans, slightly more formal shoes, or jackets that weren’t hoodies. That was about as much effort as anyone put into their outfits.

      This boss, though, once targeted an employee for “dress code” “violations.”

      We did not have a dress code. This employee dressed more professionally and conservatively than the rest of us.

      He reacted to the micromanaging with confusion and alarm, and even asked her for advice. She didn’t have any advice. She shouted.

    4. J*

      In meetings, she would take my notebook away as I was writing notes to myself, in order to write the notes for me (because I was writing notes to myself wrong, I guess?)

      She would also routinely re-write internal notes that I would make to a designer or coworker. For example, she and I would finalize copy for an ad, and I would prepare the copy to send to the graphic designer, with a note saying “Designer, please replace the existing text with the text below.” She would edit the note to say “Designer, remove existing text. Insert new text, found below.” So no change to the substance of the message, just wordsmithing language that literally only 3 people (me, her, and the designer) would ever see.

      It was also almost a year before she allowed me to give my own update at our staff meetings. She would call on me, and before I had finished the first sentence she would interrupt and give the update herself. (This was not an instance of me rambling or not answering her question. I would literally start “I wanted to give you an update on the newsletter….” and she would stop me to say “Are you going to tell them about the plans to redesign? I think they should know. I think I should give this update.”)

    5. Jules the Third*

      Augh – the shotgun spray whenever he has a question! Six emails to six people including me, within 5 minutes, and five of the people come to me to ask the answer, because he didn’t cc us, he sent *separate* emails. I’m the one with the source data, I pass it to a person *on his team* *who he didn’t email* so that his team can analyze and compress it for him.

      He also has a consistent habit of bypassing his team, with is really annoying, because I’ve worked with his team for over five years and they are highly competent, and darn it, why have I been sending them all this data?

    6. Jaune Desprez*

      The person who used to have my position transferred to another department, and boy does she wish she hadn’t. Her new manager criticizes her for using too much hand soap in the bathroom (the soap is centrally supplied and not charged to individual departments). When she has an off-site meeting, her manager calls the site to verify that she’s shown up and isn’t off playing hooky.

      1. Drew*

        If a manager tried to police my hand soap usage, I suspect my response would be, “I’m making up for my coworkers who don’t wash their hands at all.” Let him worry about THAT for a while.

    7. Tatiana*

      She would eavesdrop on my phone calls and yell from her office to correct what I was saying to patients.

  77. Jennifer*

    This week’s ridiculousness: I had someone threaten to “take action against” my organization if I didn’t give her what she wanted. (I assumed she meant a lawsuit rather than anything more violent.) Oddly enough, this little threat was dropped just as I was telling her she was going to get what she wanted. I informed my boss of this situation after it was taken care of and he immediately reported it as a threat against his employee, which he said he wouldn’t tolerate. (Which is awesome.) I don’t know if I quite think this situation should have been reported or not, or maybe I’m just concerned about ticking this girl off and what she’ll do after finding out she’s been reported. I haven’t heard back about this yet, so who knows if anything will happen anyway.
    However, it’s more or less my first lawsuit threat…I expect to get more in this place. I’d guess we might get a lawsuit or make the media at some point when we’re not able to give people what they want immediately. I’d guess within the next year and a half to two years, this is gonna happen.
    Our clientele has gotten more and more stressed out, miserable, and super demanding in the last few years. That combined with dwindling staff equals fun times. I feel like if we don’t or can’t give people exactly what they want immediately, they may lose it on us at any moment. It’s not always under our control to be able to provide everyone with what their employers need in the exact same way and at the exact time that they want it (especially when I’m coordinating with like 8 other offices to get it done and it’s not just under my solo control/approval), and this has really been happening over the summer in particular. Nobody is willing to make exceptions because our timeline doesn’t match with theirs or we have thousands of people to process.
    We’ve had people nearly kicked out of schools or jobs and one fellow lost a large amount of potential money he could have gotten specifically because we couldn’t fulfill the org’s requirements three days ahead of what we could possibly manage. We’re lucky that guy hasn’t sued. This one above threatening me was having her job threatened and I was begging the decision maker to let this girl get what she wanted because if she didn’t we’d have problems…and that was before the threat she dropped on me.
    It’s very scary to work here is what I’m saying. We have very easily upset clientele, we have to follow regulations and let all these people have fingers in the pies, and if I don’t please everyone my job is at risk if anyone complains, or sues.

    1. Chriama*

      So I’m super sympathetic to what you’re going through, but it also sounds like in some cases your org is causing real harm to people when you fail to deliver on certain things. Is this something you can look into rectifying? I have no idea what that would look like – if these people are dropping bombshells on you last minute then obviously that’s on them and maybe you can emphasize your timelines and make it clear that they’re non-negotiable. But could things be improved by strengthening your relationships with external organizations, or changing any of your internal processes? Maybe it is what it is but based on what you’ve said here if there’s a way to provide better outcomes for people I’d try to do it for sure.

      1. paul*

        I wonder if they’re government/part of a public private partnership given the references to people needing things for schools and jobs. In that case it may not be; we run into it too. We’re grant funded, and so are the other agencies we interact with. Those budgets are set by the legislature (in our state, in three year blocks). You can *try* get other funding (in our case, not all cases) but frankly those grants tend to be small potatoes of a few grand to maybe 10, 15k.

      2. Jennifer*

        Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that a lot of higher-ups in other offices are going to have to band together and decide they’re going to work on. I keep trying to sound that alarm, but I am the lowest peon on the front lines in the process, and we no longer have a BigBoss (they’re supposed to be hiring one), so I’m already gonna have to start from scratch again on that process in 2018 anyway. And those who don’t do public service don’t seem to get exactly how bad it is to tell someone they can’t have what they want and need, they can be all “so-and-so will just have to wait for five more months, they need to learn to respect deadlines” without having to suffer the direct consequences of their upset like I do.

    2. Temperance*

      I don’t really know what you do, so I might not be able to give you good advice. Are your clients being reasonable? Are their requests reasonable? I can’t tell from your comment whether they’re askign for things with too tight of a deadline or whether your org is dropping the ball.

      Whenever someone threatens to sue us, we stop handling their case. Whenever someone doesn’t hold up their part of the bargain, we stop handling their case. Then again, we’re providing free services.

      1. Jennifer*

        Either our client’s jobs or schools are either not being reasonable, or the client let it go until the dead last minute. I wouldn’t be able to know which. However, this is a “your emergency is my emergency” field, so I have to take that on.

        Technically other people’s deadlines are really too soon for us to be able to match, it’s not that we’re dropping the ball. The problem is that most orgs work on a different schedule than our org does (we run about 1-2 months later on average to finish our cycles), and we’re *huge* and slow to process huge, slow processes. Everyone thinks we should be done instantly on a certain deadline when it really takes us somewhere between 1-4 months to finish everything about this process, and that isn’t something outsiders understand. But getting anyone to understand that and readjust their expectations isn’t working.

  78. Zahra*

    To follow on the ADHD/gifted discussion from Wednesday, anyone has recommendations for 2e (twice exceptional) groups for adults (and not parents of)? I never got any IQ test results, but I did have an almost perfect GPA (if you removed arts and PE) all through K-12, even with ADHD. I didn’t know the 2e label existed before this week and I’d love to talk to people who share the same experiences and challenges.

    1. First time poster, long time lurker*

      This book may be helpful to you: Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger’s, Depression, and Other Disorders.
      I found out about it after my son was diagnosed with ADHD, inattentive type, and I realized he got it from me. (He’s exactly like me.) I wasn’t able to get any help with it though – my family doc said he didn’t think I had it based on what he knew of me, and when I had an assessment done they basically said I am too smart to have ADHD and if I feel disorganized it’s because I have a teenager :/ I tried my son’s medication a couple of times and it was like magic – I felt so calm and peaceful inside, I was able to relax, pay attention to people better and not be so tense and irritable – it made me realize that for me every day is like climbing a mountain. The same mountain. Every day.
      I was like you, really good in school without trying, but I struggle so hard in real life. I was in the International Baccalaureate program at my high school (it’s the European equivalent of Advanced Placement (I’m in Canada, not Europe, but they offer it here in some schools)), one of less than 20 kids in a school of 2,000 to be in that program full time, with my average in the high 90s, but I ended up making a giant mess of my life. I got pregnant in university, I managed to get my degree, but now I work as an admin. It tears me up inside every time I think about it because I know I’m smart, but just getting out the door on time every day with clean clothes, breakfast eaten and lunch packed is my biggest achievement every day. People at work think I’m so organized but my house is a disaster zone and I feel like I barely make it through every day.
      I hope you find something that helps you. I gave up :/
      Sorry for the long post. This just hits home for me.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Jedi hugs to you, 1st time poster.

        It’s really hard when your medical team ignores you. Please don’t give up!
        1) Try a new doctor – bring in your kid’s diagnosis or a web page with a list of symptoms, and check off how many of his symptoms are true for you
        2) A friend of mine with ADHD uses caffeine like medicine. He’s got regular times when he takes a ‘dose’, usually green or black tea – not enough to wind him up, but enough to help him focus. If your kid is on Adderall or Ritalin, and it helped you, moderate but regular caffeine may help too.
        3) If your kid’s meds are anti-depressants, go to your doctor for depression. (Probably aren’t, as most anti-depressants take weeks to be effective, but just in case…)
        4) Look into the non-medical suggestions. Another friend of mine with ADHD inattentive uses routine to help him get through a day / week / month
        – He has 1 place for the keys / wallet / work badge, and nobody can touch them or that space
        – Set the alarm for the same time every morning, even weekends.
        – Pick a time each week for specific chores (eg, laundry tuesdays, pick up thursdays, and Unf*k a Habitat Saturdays)
        – Check out Unfuck a Habitat – they have great advice for tackling things in small chunks. I haven’t tried their App, but there are several ‘gamify your chores’ apps, I believe.
        5) Write down (or print out) the routine and post it and get your household on board with helping. A teenager can bring sorted clothes to the laundry room, or even (gasp!) run that load after school, then sit with you to fold during some tv show after dinner. The routine will help him, too.

        Don’t give up – your brain is playing games with you, but you have some tools to help you win.

      2. Close Bracket*

        > I am too smart to have ADHD

        The two are unrelated. That was bad information, and I would mistrust the people who gave it to me.

      3. ..Ka*

        Wow. I am really sorry you are having to deal with this. I have a great coworker who is super smart and wonderful and hard working . She recently confided in me that she had just been diagnosed with adult ADHD. My initial response to her was sympathy and that I am glad she has been diagnosed and is getting treatment. After having a few hours to process this information, I went to talk with her again. I told her that, after thinking about what she had told me, that I was even more impressed with her than I usually was. To accomplish what she had with ADHD was amazing. Such accomplishments were generally very difficult if not unattainable for people with her diagnosis. I wished her well and asked her to let me know what I could do to continue to support her- because she was amazing and deserving of support.

    2. AudreyParker*

      Ooh, now I have to go back to Wednesday’s posts. This has been weighing on me a lot lately. I don’t know if I’m 2e, but was in the Gifted program throughout school, and only in the past 5 years or so realizing it is probably still affecting my life experience so looking to find others with similar background. (Definitely an underachiever!) I did discover an organization called SENG that seems to be upping their reach – following them on Twitter, but haven’t had much time to dig around on their site. Worth a look!

    3. AudreyParker*

      Hmm replied earlier, but since post isn’t appearing and have been having issues with the page reloading, will try again:
      Thanks for sending me back to the Wed discussion – this is something I’ve been really focused on lately, as I was in the Gifted program throughout school and can’t really tell whether I’m 2e or not, but certainly feel very ADD. Definitely an “underachiever,” which is doing me in now, and have been looking for places to connect with more people of that background. I ran across an organization called SENG which says they have resources for adults as well as parents – haven’t had a chance to comb through their site yet, but may be something there. Also, Hoagies Gifted site has a fairly lengthy page of resources which may have something (that’s still on my to-do list to go through, as well!). Good luck!

      1. Anonish*

        I’m an experienced teacher with a gifted Ed endorsement who was in a gifted program from 2-12 grades. . I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and take meds. My kid is very gifted also with ADHD. I work with gifted kids all day, every day. There is a huge crossover between giftedness and ADHD, also autism spectrum stuff. There are also aspects of giftedness that can look like those differences, but may not be. SENG is a great resource, also NAGC and Davidson Institute. Dabrowski’s overexcitabilities are worth reading about. Find practitioners researching 2e — it’s a huge area of gifted Ed. Your state’s TAG professional org might hold conferences, and non-teachers are generally welcome.

  79. Crashed and Burned*

    I recently bombed a technical interview for an internal analyst position that I really wanted, and that I thought I would be a good fit for. After a stint of self-loathing and self-pity, I’m realizing that I did gloss over a chunk of material I should now be studying and working on, but I’m definitely capable of learning it and coming back to do better.

    My question is: how bad would a technical interview have to be to not want to reconsider the candidate in the future? In what way/s would someone have to fail for there not to be a second chance?

    I still want to stay at the company, and so many of the other group’s projects sound interesting. But I want to have hope that my chances aren’t sunk after flunking the technical interview this time.

    1. Undine*

      Since it’s internal, I think you’re in a better position than usual to reach out to the hiring manager (email). You could tell her you are still interested in the position, you realize that you weren’t as prepared as you thought, & does she have suggestions for how you might prepare yourself.

      1. Crashed and Burned*

        I’ll keep this in mind for when I get notice of whether or not I’ll be moving forward to the next step. I sincerely believe I will not be moving forward, and am bracing myself for the disappointment of seeing it in black and white, but would rather not jump the gun.

        Thanks for the advice!

  80. Antti*

    1. I was offered a new internal position in the department I’ve always wanted to get into, and I accepted it! Starting in a little more than a week. I credit what Alison wrote in “How To Get A Job” for empowering me and getting me to think hard about how to present my accomplishments. I felt really good about everything the whole way through!

    2. Fashion question! Our company’s dress code permits jeans. Still can’t be wearing t-shirts or athletic shoes though. I’m a cisgender man; my usual outfit is a plaid button-up over some other colored shirt, jeans, and a pair of casual loafers. I have some light scarves that have been just sitting and collecting dust, and I’d love to have some ideas on how I can incorporate them in a way that’s both fashionable and professional. Anyone have any ideas or resources I should check out?

    1. NaoNao*

      Fashion!
      My fave.
      So for scarves, I’d say they look best with a blazer or cardigan, rather than just a button down, since they tend to add a bit of structure to the outfit. I’d go with something like shirt, cardigan, scarf, and pants, or henley, blazer, scarf, pants.
      In the winter, you could add a scarf to a chunky knit pullover or tuck it into the neckline of a chunky sweater over a button down, or wear it draped, open, (untied) under the lapels of a heavier tweed blazer (I call this “opera style”).

      1. Laura*

        Google Italian men’s fashion magazines for all the scarf wearing tips and tricks you will ever need! But I also agree with NaoNao that they don’t really go with just a shirt.

  81. Lady Dedlock*

    Help me think of a new job title! I’m up for a raise/promotion, and at the college where I work, it’s much easier to get HR’s approval if you request a new job title. I work in a small department where there isn’t a defined career ladder, so I can essentially make up my own title.

    My job is about 50% editorial work and 50% web design/content management. Right now, my job title basically combines two job titles—think Senior Editor and Web Designer (not my exact title, for anonymity). We recently hired a graphic designer, whom I’m supervising. Of the staff at my organization, I’m the one with the most technical expertise in web design.

    I’d like to suggest a title that consolidates these two areas and also sounds more senior than what I’m doing. I’ve been thinking along the lines of Creative Director, Web; Lead Digital Creative; Digital Creative Manager; etc. I’m leaning toward emphasizing the web design because that’s where my unique value to the organization lies (there are other editors here, but no other web designers).

    Thoughts? Other ideas?

  82. Anonymous for Friday the 13th*

    Something I’ve never come across before and was wondering if anyone here has any insight…

    I’ve been working in the private (no gov’t funds) nonprofit sector for approximately 15 years. We don’t get annual raises and sometimes it can be a couple of years between. We do performance reviews but those are used for deciding if you get a raise*. If we get a raise, usually it’s across the board, but with different amounts, and the last 2 times we got raises, they “retro-paid” us. The last raise, we got notified in August (2017) that we were getting a raise and it would be “retro-paid” all the way back to January. The raise before (3 years ago), we were told in December that we were getting raises and we would be “retro-paid” back to July.

    Has anyone else experienced this? I’m appreciative of the retro-pay but if they are going to give us a raise, why not just do it in January instead of waiting to August? Maybe something to do with funds? I tried to ask and was brushed off and grandboss seemed a little peeved I asked so I just let it drop. The first time it somehow made me owe taxes when we filed and I’m worried about that again this year.

    1. anon24*

      Are you financially able to not touch the retro-pay until tax time? This is what I would do if I was worried about owing taxes on the money, I would put it away and not touch it and pretend it didn’t exist. Then it would be a pleasant “suprise” come tax time and I would then decide what to do with any funds that were left after taxes. Tax time is only 4 months away!

      1. Anonymous for Friday the 13th*

        It comes a part of our regular check, not a separate check. The first time I gave a chunk of it to my sister who had cancer surgery and needed money for food, bills, etc. No way was I going to ask her for it back. I’ll definitely put some of it back this year!

        It just seem so…odd. I’ve never worked for anyone who retro-pays employees. Again, I’m appreciative of it, but would like to understand the delay of applying the raise.

    2. Colette*

      It takes time to get budgets finalized and everything approved. The option isn’t that they would have done it in January, it’s that you wouldn’t get retro pay.

    3. Kathenus*

      My guess is that the organization needs to wait and see how the financial performance is during the year to decide if they can afford the raise. On the tax issue, nothing even close to an accountant or tax expert but can you change your deductible status to cover potential higher taxes for the retroactive raise, and if the raise doesn’t happen you can get a refund?

    4. Natalie*

      (Assuming US) Retroactive pay isn’t subject to any special kind of taxation, it’s just added to your income for that year and taxed as normal. So there isn’t really any reason getting retroactive pay would have caused you to owe at the end of the year. Since the retroactive pay is being paid with your regular pay check, I can’t think of how it would affect your withholding rate. It is most likely just a coincidence.

  83. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    I’m the person in charge of our software. Get people access, basic training, troubleshooting, etc. As such, I have mentally classified everyone using the software into basic groups: “requires extensive handholding/just do it for them”, “ok, but needs the reassurance of handholding”, “fine with instructions”, and “just fine unless the server melts down”. This list is NOT written, for obvious reasons.

    We’ve had a couple of new people recently. At least 2 of them appear to be in the “extensive handholding” group. Sigh. Doesn’t help that I really don’t tolerate incompetence well. Especially since this job is one where basic competence/comfort with technology is pretty much required.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      and if you’re a manager:
      1. don’t tell people you’ll confirm the contact, then forget and ask if they’ve confirmed the contact.
      2. when they say no, I haven’t because you told me you’d do it and offer to email the person who was the contact previously to see if they’re still it…
      2a. don’t tell them to not email.

      In short, just confirm the damn contact and tell me. This is why I’m looking for a new job.

    2. Alice*

      Maybe a role that involves a lot of training isn’t a great fit for someone who doesn’t tolerate incompetence well? It’s probably draining for this to be a big part of your work responsibilities if you’d rather be on the back end.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        Actually, I’m not “training” per se. I do a 5-10 minute thing to get everything working and give them really big picture, hand them the guide to work through, and leave them to it. I answer questions, help solve problems, etc. Most of what I do with the software is admin stuff and it’s a minor part of my day. I generally enjoy it, just having issues with other stuff at work right now and that’s impacting me negatively. Working on a new job.

        But yes, I’m well aware that training is a very bad idea for me. It either goes really well, or really poorly and I can never predict which. I was actually asked recently if I could do a lunch and learn, and I declined.

    3. Anon anon anon*

      I feel your pain. I really do. I was always struck by the psychological quirks that came to light just by seeing how people use software. There are always some people who just need a lot of attention. They seem like people who could figure things out on their own based on the other things they’re responsible for, but they really like having someone there answering their questions. And the opposite – the people who don’t want to be told anything, but they don’t actually know what they’re doing so they end up breaking stuff. Most people didn’t fall into either category in the places where I worked, but it was interesting to see how people’s actual technical skills compared to their job titles and descriptions. There were some very talented people in customer service roles and people in higher up technical roles who needed hand holding.

  84. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    I know this has been addressed numerous times, but I have a small twist I’d like opinions on.

    I am one of those people who encourages the use of sick leave. In fact, I get downright angry when someone shows up to work sick. Seriously, if you are sick and contagious you need to be home getting better instead of spreading your germs to everyone around you. This hits me particularly hard because my young son has cold-induced asthma and has previously been hospitalized after a former coworker passed me a severe cold virus that my son caught.

    Last week my new boss came in clearly sick. She had no voice and was coughing up a storm. We were in the middle of some critical issues so I knew she really did need to be present, but once the issues were resolved, she continued to come in. Yesterday she was so sick she slept through her alarm and didn’t even wake up until 10am, then insisted on coming in to the office even though there was NOTHING for her to do. She’s back again today, coughing up a lung in her office. I had a talk with her about what happened with the previous coworker but she was dismissive.

    How the heck do you get your boss to take a sick day? She has a laptop she can bring home with everyone she needs on it. No one is willing to sit in private meetings with her. I’m at the end of my rope because I can’t handle watching my son go back into the hospital because other people are selfish egomaniacs. And now, of course, because she’s come in sick, everyone else will be hesitant to use their sick time.

    1. Colette*

      First of all, it’s nice to think that everyone can always stay home when they’re sick, but that’s not always possible. A lot of people don’t get paid sick time, or don’t get enough paid sick time and have to go to work, or have tons of sick time but need to go to work anyway because there is something critical they’re working on. They’re not selfish egomaniacs for the most part, they’re people doing the best they can to balance their conflicting responsibilities.

      In addition, some viruses spread before the person knows they’re sick, and some viruses last longer than is practical. I typically am sick for about 10 days when I have a cold – it’s not reasonable to stay home that long. If you go out in the world, you are going to be exposed to illnesses, whether you know people are sick or not.

      As far as your boss goes, there are two things you can do. The first is to express concern for her. “You know, I bet you’d be a lot more comfortable working from home. I’ll keep you informed on what is happening here.L

      The second is to point out that she’s not doing what’s best for the company. “I was wondering if you’d mind working from home. When everyone else sees you come in when you’re sick, it makes them feel like they have to do the same. We could end up swapping the same illnesses back and forth all winter, and I’m afraid that will hurt our productivity”.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        I don’t make those judgments about people unless they’ve been clear about their situations. In my office, I know for a fact those individuals have an unlimited sick leave balance.

        1. Colette*

          You don’t know who has been told they’ve missed too many days, or who needs to drop off their child at daycare near work, or who lives next to a construction site, or who saw people fired at their last job for taking sick time, or who can get a ride in in the morning but would have to find alternate transportation later if there’s a crisis.

          Life is complicated. Being near someone who is sick increases your risk of getting sick, yes, but not being around someone who is visibly sick doesn’t make your risk zero.

          And they’re not being sick at you. It’s reasonable to suggest they stay home, but it’s not a good idea to do more than that or to resent them for doing something other than you’d do.

    2. beanie beans*

      These are the reasons I would love to find a job where I can work from home. We have a supervisor who came in sick all week last week and now 5 people have been out this week. It’s gonna be a long cold season…

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Does your new boss know about your son? I would loop her in on that and explain why you have to avoid her when she comes to work sick because of the previous incident.

      I’m sorry, though… you have my sympathies. My boss is a workaholic and comes to work sick all the time. Fortunately we work in different locations so I can usually avoid her germs!

      1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        You could also ask to work from home if she insists on coming in sick. Explain the situation with your son and let her know you cant really be around sick people. That way your not telling her what to do. It cant hurt to ask the question.

    4. Lumen*

      “I need to discuss something with you, because I’m hoping we can come up with a solution. I have a family member at home who is very vulnerable to colds and respiratory viruses, and has been hospitalized in the past. Every time a colleague comes into the office while sick, I have to face my very serious concern that I am going to bring that illness home to my family and we might end up going to the hospital again. I know it may not be possible to require people to work from home or stay home if they’re coughing and sneezing. However, I thought I might be permitted to work from home if someone is sick in the office, so I can avoid serious health complications for my family. That’s my suggestion; do you have any other ideas?”

      This way you aren’t demanding a change to anyone else’s behavior and you are not directly ‘attacking’ your boss. You’re not even trying to address the impact your boss’s behavior has on everyone else’s willingness to take sick leave. You’re just looking for ways to keep your family out of the hospital, which is INCREDIBLY REASONABLE. And maybe if you speak up, your coworkers will also feel safer bringing up THEIR concerns about this behavior.

      Good luck. :( I’m so sorry about your son. That’s not okay.

    5. M is for Mulder*

      I feel you. My mom was severely immuno-compromised for over a decade before she passed, and this sort of thing was a serious risk to her life. There were months I had to avoid seeing her to make sure I wasn’t passing something on. Certainly it’s even more difficult when you live with the person, like in your situation.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Ew! I hate that. I would suggest to her that she work at home at least until she’s better, but there’s not much you can do really.

    7. ..Ka*

      Okay. You can’t make people behave the way you want, so you have to modify your behavior. The good news is that this is doable. Colds and flu are respiratory illnesses. As a nurse in a critical care unit, I can tell you that we treat these illnesses as needing “droplet/contact precautions.”

      So, droplet precautions. This is when someone coughs, sneezes, sings, projects forcefully from their mouth or nose. They are spewing infectious respiratory secretions at you and the environment. If you are in close contact with them, consider wearing a surgical mask to protect yourself from breathing in the their germs, getting infected, and passing the infection on to your child. You can buy such masks st Walgreens or on Amazon. Keep in mind that after a certain amount of time, you need a new mask.

      Next is the contact part of precautions. The person with the infection is spewing germs onto the environment. Also, when they cough/sneeze/blow-their-nose/touch-their-face, they are getting germs on their hands. Anything they touch becomes contaminated with their germs. Anything that they sneezed/coughed on becomes contaminated with their germs. Then you come along, touch these contaminated surfaces, contaminate your hands with the germs, and touch your eyes/mouth/nose, and bingo, you have transmitted the illness to yourself. Or you take care of your child, touching their eyes/nose/mouth, and transmit the infection to your child. So, how do you protect yourself and your child? First off, frequent hand washing. Soap and water or waterless hand gel ( at least 60% alcohol). Also, regularly clean surfaces in your office with disinfectant wipes.

      I know this sounds like a pain in the posterior, but once these habits become second nature, and once you see your child having fewer infections, I think you will decide that the benefits outweigh the hassles.

      Good luck. If I can help further, please ask.

  85. anna green*

    Today is my last day!! Thanks to all the great advice on AAM, I got a new job and I start on Tuesday! I AM SO EXCITED!! It’s been a hectic two weeks of transitions, but I am feeling ready to leave. Thanks to all for the great advice and support these many months!!

  86. Shellesbelles*

    So, my boss gave away my new work laptop to the intern. I wasn’t able to use it initially because it didn’t have the design software I need to do my job, so I was waiting until she got the software to transition over to using it. She said she would handle that. I’m currently using my personal laptop and my own adobe creative suite without any compensation, which is getting quite expensive. When I asked her why the intern was using it, she responded with “you snooze, you lose.” Basically implying that I waited too long to use it…except she was the one who was meant to get the software for it. I’m really upset, especially by her flippant response, and I’m not really sure what to do about this. Any thoughts?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      “My understanding was that you were configuring that laptop for my use, which is what I was waiting for. If I continue to use my personal software and equipment for work, I will of course expect the company to reimburse the license fees. How do I fill out a reimbursement form for the use of my personal software?”

      I’m not sure what you can do if the boss says no to that, other than “Oops, unfortunately my laptop is in the shop for the foreseeable future. I will need to acquire a company-provided laptop with the appropriate software to do my job.”

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      “I’m no longer able to use my personal machine for work purposes. What can we do about this?”

      Don’t give reasons. Just keep “that won’t be possible”-ing. Reasons can be argued with.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Do you have a desktop at the office and use your laptop away from the office, or is your personal laptop your only computer for your job? If you have a desktop at the office, stop using your personal laptop completely and only do work at the office — that might mean deadlines are missed and if you’re asked about it you can point out that the company laptop is in the possession of the intern (do not mention of your own laptop). If it’s your only computer…I don’t quite know what to say because stopping will likely cost you your job and it might be seen as essentially quitting. I wouldn’t start down the road of asking for compensation for your personal property. The company might start thinking they own it or the software…

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        Yeah, I very strongly agree you should stop using your personal laptop for work. Because (a) I would feel very uncomfortable mixing my personal files with my work files, and (b) they are not actually feeling the pain of their IT practices. If they take forever to get software installed on your laptop but your productivity is not lowered, what’s their incentive to get the software installed? It’s “clearly” not causing any problems right?

  87. The New Wanderer*

    Last week I replied to a comment about whether it was okay to submit a second application to a job that you didn’t hear back from the first time, and/or apply for several positions at the same company. I had updated my resume from the first time and also found out I had a mutual connection to someone at the company who was willing to vouch for me to the employee, so I submitted to two job positions I feel I’m qualified for.
    I now have a preliminary phone screen set up for early next week – the recruiter mentioned both positions are under the same senior person, so the screen is essentially for both. Woo!

    In other AAM-inspired news, I had an initial phone screen with a different company’s recruiter. At the end he brought up the compensation conversation and rather than immediately ask me salary expectation, he mentioned being sure we were on the same page and then he paused. I jumped right in with “Could you tell me what you have budgeted for the position?” He did! He mentioned the base salary and bonus structure and when I continued to pause, he went ahead and said there was some wiggle room depending on experience etc. It was within my desired range (which I never stated, but I was mentally prepared just in case) so I said I’m definitely still interested in talking and would want more details about total compensation and benefits later on if appropriate. Thanks to this site, I had that approach down cold. :-) I think it also helped that the recruiter was really easy to talk to, respectful and interested in what I was saying. I’m not sure how it would have gone down if the recruiter was brusque or refused to give a range first.

    1. Jimbo*

      Ah good job! Especially on the salary range exchange. I had an in person interview last week where I did ask the question on what they budgeted for salary after they asked me what my salary expectations were. They played coy and refused to divulge a number, only that it was “competitive” with other nonprofit orgs in the area. I tried asking again but they seemed taken aback so I thought best not to push on. Oh well. If they call me for a second interview I will see if I can get them to fess up with more info

  88. LizB*

    AW CRAP one of my direct reports just sent me a meeting request for Monday because “there’s a matter I’d like to discuss with you.” Usually that means they’re leaving. I am praying it’s anything else because this person does awesome work. Maybe she’s pregnant? Fingers crossed. I just got done hiring, I wanted at least a tiny bit of a break.

    1. Banana in Pajamas*

      Is there any way you two can meet today? That way, you at least won’t have to sit in agony over the weekend wondering what it is!

      1. LizB*

        She’s working offsite today, I think. I wish she would have just come in to talk to me, though, instead of sending me cryptic meeting requests. This is the third person who’s done this vague-request-for-a-future-conversation thing and it drives me up the wall. Would it be reasonable to ask my team members to just call me or come in on the day they want to talk, rather than booking it in advance and leaving me to be anxious? Or would that be too precious/needy?

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I understand your frustration, but… I do think you might have to let this type of thing slide. Sometimes people schedule meetings first to get the time, then once they know they have the time, they need more time (evening, weekend, etc.) to collect their thoughts. She’s trying to be respectful of your schedule and not spring something on you. I would also bet she’s just as anxious as she’s making you. :)

          However, you could always write back and say that today works as well if she wants to talk on the phone. Be neutral!

    2. Mediamaven*

      I absolutely hate when you get that email going into the weekend or on the weekend. So you get to sit and stew about it all weekend and dread it. It’s so colossally rude. I would have said nah, you can tell me right now. I would never send an email to an employee on a Friday that said, we need to talk about a problem with you, but we’re going to wait until Monday.

  89. But you don't have an accent*

    So I’ve been debating posting about this for awhile, but I wasn’t sure if I was at my BEC moment, or this is something I should legitimately be concerned with.

    I have a colleague who I took an intense disliking to within a day of meeting him. He said several things which gave me the impression that he had zero respect for women (I say this as someone who does not tend to see microaggressions/misogyny as readily as others). I later find out, he had made fun of one of our coworker’s sexuality, and then a few weeks later made fun of another coworker’s weight (these were both women).

    He then, about a month after that, stated to another coworker that “he could never work with me and I’m not as smart as I think I am”. Unfortunately for him, this coworker and I are good friends and management would…aggressively disagree with him on his second point. I also know (though I shouldn’t) that there have been performance and other issues with him.

    Am I overreacting to this person? Or should I be more worried? I haven’t heard him say anything derogatory about anyone else but I’ve considered taking anything else I hear to my manager and HR. Am I overreacting?

    1. Emi.*

      Worried about what? He’s definitely behaving badly, but it’s not clear if anything bad is going to come of it for you. To me it sounds like he’s going to develop a reputation as a jerk and eventually face the consequences of that. If you want to hurry those consequences along, you could talk to his manager, but it doesn’t sound to me like *you* have anything to worry about (unless you’re also management and he’s doing something illegal).

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      That’s completely inappropriate of your colleague. I think this is an issue to bring to HR, especially the fact that he is targeting women with his negativity. But documenting your concerns now is very important.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Your coworker is an ass. I’d loop your boss in saying you’ve heard him say things that were not nice about other women. Keep it to what you’ve heard, everything else is a rumor. Say you think that this behavior is disturbing. Then encourage your friend and anybody else that has heard him say things to go to the boss as well. One person could be a personality conflict. With multiple people it’s a pattern of inappropriate behavior.

      1. Kathenus*

        This could be up for debate, but I might also mention that you’ve heard coworkers have similar concerns but that you can only speak to what you heard directly. That way you’re not spreading rumors/hearsay, but you are letting your manager know that this may be a more widespread concern.

  90. Kate Nepveu*

    Hi Alison–I haven’t watched this week’s episode of the TV show _The Good Place_ yet, but based on the first four episodes of the current season, I’m curious if you’re watching and what you think from a managerial perspective. =>

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have never seen it! But generally I find most portrayals of management and of workplaces in movies and on TV to be pretty eye-rolly if not outright cringey. (I just watched The Intern and was in a fit of rage.)

      1. Lumen*

        It’s… not a typical workplace. But I can’t say more without spoiling the entire first season. It’s well worth watching and (especially at the start of Season 2) definitely relates to how management and employees interact, especially when things aren’t going well.

        1. Tableau Wizard*

          completely agree! it’s going to be interesting to see how the workplace dynamics play out this season… don’t want to give away spoilers but i totally want to give away spoilers… struggles…

        2. Kate Nepveu*

          I’m so glad someone else agrees. =>

          (I put a longer explanation, including a rot13’ed spoiler section, in a comment that’s awaiting moderation.)

      2. Kate Nepveu*

        It’s a pretty great show–half-hour comedy on NBC by the creator of _Parks and Rec_ and _Brooklyn Nine-Nine_ (both very workplace-centric!, which may or may not recommend this to you, given what you’ve just said, heh). It stars Kristen Bell and Ted Danson, in which Bell wakes up and is told by Danson, you’re dead, but the good news is your excellent deeds on Earth earned you a spot in The Good Place. Except that this is Danson’s first time overseeing a Good Place, and Bell’s character was not actually a human rights lawyer but, well, a dirtbag. Things just get more complicated from there.

        The seasons are 13 episodes each and were plotted in whole, and it really shows — it burns through plot at a frankly astonishing rate. I watched the first season as it came out, but I’m told it works really well binged, too.

        I am now putting ALL THE SPOILERS for all of season one, and the first four episodes of season two, in rot13 (go to link to decrypt).

        ng gur raq bs frnfba bar, jr yrnea gung vg’f abg gur tbbq cynpr: qnafba’f punenpgre unf perngrq guvf snxr tbbq cynpr naq fgnssrq vg jvgu onq cynpr rzcyblrrf, rkprcg sbe oryy’f punenpgre naq guerr bgure qrnq uhznaf, nf n jnl gb znxr gurz gbegher rnpu bgure sbe rgreavgl. ohg oryy’f punenpgre svtherf vg bhg, fb ur jvcrf gurve zrzbevrf naq fgnegf bire. qnafba’f punenpgre’f obff, ubjrire, guvaxf guvf vf n qhzo cyna gb fgneg jvgu, naq vf bayl tvivat uvz bar zber punapr: ohg gur uhznaf whfg xrrc svthevat vg bhg, fb ur xrrcf ylvat gb uvf obff, naq abj na haqreyvat vf oynpxznvyvat uvz nobhg vg.

        Which made me want to imagine what that character’s letter to you would look like, and what advice you would give . . .

        1. AnonAndOn*

          I have never heard of rot13 and that’s a neat way of hiding spoilers (well, I’ve seen “The Good Place” so those aren’t spoilers to me). Thanks for sharing the link!

  91. notsorecentcollegegrad*

    I am getting a bit closer to finding a new job (yay!). I’m currently at my first job out of college and I’ve been here for a little over two years. I was wondering what I should do if they ask for my current manager/supervisor as reference. I know it’s a bit more common to ask for that when people are early in their career but I’m hesitant for a few reasons:

    1. Even though my job is entry level/at least 3 years experience, the current management is under the expectation that assistants should stay for at least 10 years. There is not a lot of opportunity for growth and promotion, and I’m 90% sure they will not take kindly to me leaving “before my time.”
    2. Because of the amount of time they expect people to stay here their definition of “recently” is skewed. I’ll have projects I worked well over a year ago mentioned as a recent accomplishment or project, and the same goes for mistakes. I still get talked to about mistakes I made in the first six months on the job when I’ve been here for over 2 years now.

    How should I go about it if/when they ask to speak to my current manager? I was thinking of saying they could once I have a firm offer but I’m still a bit nervous.

    1. Not Tom, just Petty*

      First of all, everything about them is skewed and I’ve been at my current job around 15 years. I stayed because I chose to, not because I made some blood oath that I would serve my manager for 25% of my career. And if I brought up a mistake I made 9 months ago, my boss would be really concerned that I was still thinking about it. And the same for achievements from a year ago. Nope.
      So just explain that you don’t want them to know you are looking. It’s not strange, unique, unheard of or high maintenance. It’s the real world.

      1. notsorecentcollegegrad*

        They’ve been spoiled by the two other assistants on my team staying for 8-12 years now. One of them has switched to a different team and back, and the other couldn’t leave due to a family issue. I don’t think the managers understand that they’re the anomalies, not the norm.

        And the mistake was a year and a half ago, not 9 months so it’s even worse! Thanks for the advice, I think I’ll go with that. I do have a few references who used to work here and from volunteer work (which is more in line with the industry I’m trying to break into) so hopefully they’ll be satisfied with those!

        1. Not Tom, just Petty*

          Oh good lord. Bringing up ancient history. Pretty sure you didn’t burn the building down or embezzle funds. LET. IT. GO! Loons. They’re are so out of touch. You’ll be fine. Good luck!

      1. Laura*

        “the current management is under the expectation that assistants should stay for at least 10 years”

        HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHH

    3. W31RD0*

      You might want to show prospective bosses recent accomplishments and let them know about your current employers policy. Since you have reason to believe that they will not give a good reference if you leave in less than 10 years it’s not really beneficial to you to even give notice. Look for a better job with actual career potential, and when you get one just let your boss know today will be your last day.

  92. i think my last username was back from the grave*

    I just had to help Husband quit a Halloween store in the middle of October. He would have only been there two more weeks! The red flags were getting too numerous to ignore. Unstable scheduling, explosive owner, issues with payroll, being given manager-level duties and hours but not being given a raise or title to go with it. (Btw, the final straw was his manager quit, and he was excepted to take on her role and train a brand new employee to be his new manager. ) (High turnover at a month-long role, another red flag)

    He’s at that stage of job hunt where the only places willing to hire him already have high-turnover. I think we’re going to try for another seasonal job for now, we just have to build up a more recent and positive work history, and I think the stress of low wage jobs is going to be easier if there is a light at the end of the tunnel where he can say he got laid-off from temp work instaid of fired or quit. At least the manager that quit said she was willing to give him a nice reference! That is, if we decide to put this, a two-week job, on a resume…

    1. Not Tom, just Petty*

      I always wondered if those seasonal type jobs would be fun in a high-energy, holiday crazy kind of way. Guess it’s just regular crazy. Good luck with the job search.

      1. i think my last username was back from the grave*

        According to him he did have fun while he was actually doing the job. So I guess that’s another silver lining- we’ve found out that he does like retail sales. I mean what a field, right? I did that before I broke into white-collar so I know these issues are common. But the degree to which was just insane.

        1. Not Tom, just Petty*

          As someone who hates answering my own desk phone, people who like talking to people face to face or over the phone absolutely amaze me. Hope he finds something where he can just do his job more than put up with bad policies and management.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I broke down and applied for a couple of seasonal retail jobs last week and never heard back from either of them. One of them was at a Halloween store. Maybe I dodged a bullet.

    3. Erin*

      Great time to to get ahead start on the retail Christmas season. If he’s dependable and decent and his job a lot of times those roll over into permanent positions.

  93. Not Tom, just Petty*

    I got to use my “Ask a Manager training” this week. It was really cool and I’ve been waiting till Friday to share.
    Out for dinner with a couple and the husband said he was still pissed about something that happened at work today. He shows me a screen shot from an IM he received. Coworker A writes, “I have to go “explain” something to Fergus again. Yes, again. I’m sick of “explaining” everything to him. He should just give up.”
    Yes, my friend is Fergus. I asked, did you reply, “I don’t think this was meant for me?”
    I stood up and yelled across the floor, “if you have something to say, say it.”
    And?
    And dude apologized, said he didn’t mean it and is happy to help me.
    Nice. What’s your question?
    Fergus: I want to go to his manager and report this.
    Me channeling in AAM: “No, you don’t. It’s not a performance issue, it’s interpersonal. He insulted you. You confronted him. He apologized. The manager can’t make him apologize more and sure as hell can’t unring the bell. You have to let it go.”

    1. Murphy*

      I stood up and yelled across the floor, “if you have something to say, say it.”

      That’s my favorite part. (And I agree that management doesn’t need to get involved.)

  94. MsNelsonisMissing*

    I don’t usually post, but this is such a wonderful, thoughtful community that I thought I’d give it a try.

    I am upset about my work situation and I don’t know what to do. My husband and I both work full time in professional fields (salaried, exempt) in a large urban area on the West Coast. I have a 3 year old and 1 year old who are in daycare full time, and no family nearby who can help a lot. Despite having a very involved partner, a lot of household tasks and “mental load” falls to me.

    I want to work and I think I’m a valuable employee. But I can’t work 50+ hours a week consistently with small children. I also can’t be in the office past 5 or 6 pm consistently. I work 7:30-4:30 with no or minimal lunch break most days, and I take work home many nights. I can stay later on days when I know it’s urgent. But this is not good enough anymore, based on a conversation with my boss. Getting in early and taking work home doesn’t “really count” when face time is what matters. I’m expected to be in the office until at least 5 or 6pm. I’m also being told working from home is no longer appropriate. And part time isn’t really a thing in my field (finance.)

    It takes me about an hour to drive 18 miles to daycare, and another 20-25 minutes to pick up the kids and get home. My kids go to bed between 6:45 and 7:15pm. So we have a very limited, high stress window in which to make dinner, bathe the kids, spend time with them, and put them to bed. It’s really hard, especially knowing I’m supposed to be at work. Honestly, I hate it. I feel like I’m failing everyone.

    How does everyone else manage this? Is it time to consider a nanny, maybe in the afternoons? Does anyone work part-time or flex time? If so, how do you negotiate an arrangement like that? Are there companies out there who are willing to work with moms? What types of companies would those be? I feel like I’m out of options on the corporate career path I’ve been on, so it’s time to consider other things.

    I don’t want to leave my job, but that may be the only workable option. I really hate how moms can get pushed out of the workforce like this.

    Sorry it’s so long…thank you for your suggestions!

    1. Emi.*

      A nanny might help, or even just a daycare picker-upper, so you have that extra 1:25 at home (and less driving stress!). Maybe a nanny who also cooks dinner? Or a mother’s-helper? (My sisters mother’s-helper and it’s a mix of childcare and housework.)

      Also, how much have you talked about this with your husband, and how much does he listen? Is there anything else he can take on–in terms of things to do *and* in terms of sacrifices to make at work (i.e “but I have to be at work past 5” isn’t final for him if it isn’t for you, etc)?

      I’m sorry! This sounds really tough. *internet hugs*

    2. Althea*

      It sucks that your job is so inflexible, and it really discriminates against people with families! I hope they know they are pushing out good employees in their prime, but it sounds like they are stupidly equating facetime with ability. Personally, I work and have 1 kid, another on the way… but I have to travel for work, and be able to work from any place. So it would be ridiculous to insist on facetime or not allow working from home and flexible hours, because being away and having weird hours is a job requirement.

      I’d love to tell you to push back and find out from your boss what is being accomplished at 5-6pm that is not being accomplished at 7:30 am or at home… but I doubt that’s practical if your employer is being stupid about face time.

      Can your husband be the one that takes on more family duty? And can you stagger your schedules so that he’s working 7:30-4:30 and you are the one who works 9:30-5:30?

      I’d also suggest looking into an au pair. This is a live-in nanny from another country. In my high cost-of-living area, the cost is equivalent to daycare for 1 child, but the price doesn’t change if you have 2 or 3 kids. There are rules about hours, but it’s just much more flexible than daycare.

    3. CynicallySweet7*

      So I’ve been in the real estate/financing industry for about ten years, and while I’m not sure what people do about nannys vs daycare, I have noticed from talking to my friends that different subsets of the industry are more allowing of flex schedules and work from home than others. If you want the sexy career and big money they’re likely to value face time a lot, but LIHTC and Workforce housing companies (for example), tend to pay less but be much more flexible with the benefits. I know those are real estate not financing, but that’s what I have the most knowledge of so those are the examples I chose. So, basically if you’re willing to potentially take a pay cut for better benefits that could be a viable option. I’m on the East Coast, but my friends that went out west say it’s the same concept

    4. Reba*

      It sounds like you or your spouse need a job that keeps more limited (i.e. standard 37-40 hr week) hours and is more respectful of your time outside the office. I don’t know if that means a total change of field or just a change of workplace. Do you know other women in your field (or men, but I feel like women are more likely to notice this stuff) who could give you tips about which companies and jobs would be more likely to support a balanced life? Are there other things that could give you some relief in the short term while you think about your next move–car pooling for the kids pick up, meal or grocery delivery…?
      Make sure you’re not defaulting to you leaving your job (vs. your spouse, or some other arrangement).

      Good luck!

    5. Not Tom, just Petty*

      Everyone doesn’t. They compromise. You are looking for suggestions regarding how to adjust your work schedule, how you can meet the requirements of daycare, and of dinner, bath and bedtime all by yourself. You can’t. My suggestion step back. Make a list of things that must be done:
      1) work till 6:30
      2) pick up kids from daycare.
      3) make dinner
      4) bathe kids
      my suggestion is:
      1) if that’s the job, you are stuck for now.
      2) hire someone.
      3) crockpot meals, buy ready family style frozen, packaged foods
      4) take turns with husband, and the other partner does some household thing that needs doing. Load of laundry, empty the dishwasher, something that takes 20 minutes.

      Find any other non-negotiables and outsource those as well.
      You can’t do it all. Stop trying to find a way.

    6. Purplesaurus*

      I’m unimpressed with your employer. If you want to continue working, maybe start by searching for a position with a different employer, one that would be more understanding about work-life balance (and the way to figure this out is by asking how they handle scheduling and work-life balance – I’m sure there are posts about this in the AAM archives that would be more helpful).

      In the mean time, you said you’ve already considered a nanny. I think this is an option you should discuss with your partner, who you could ask about helping more with those household tasks if you don’t decide to hire a nanny.

    7. Book Lover*

      So, both kids in daycare? Based on my location, that would be about the same cost as a nanny. I do think there are benefits to daycare, but how about dropping them off in the morning and then having a nanny pick them up at noon or after nap time and then having them in your home. The nanny could possibly also help with prepping dinner (you would be advertising for a driver/nanny/someone to do simple dinners).
      Ideally, you’d find a new position where your work rather than your backside in a chair is recognized as having value, but that could be something you do in the background while taking some things off your plate right now.
      Also, if your partner is very involved, why is this mostly on you? But that isn’t really relevant if it isn’t going to change.

      1. Book Lover*

        Oh, and basically, you post on care.com, be very precise about the hours and tasks you are expecting, and then do a phone interview to clarify your needs and see if it makes sense to take time for an in person interview. Depending on what the candidate needs, you might end up having them pick up the kids earlier or later to make up the hours desired. (Before or after nap time would make the most sense)

    8. Temperance*

      I think you and your husband need to split the daycare pickup instead of this all falling on you. It seems like you’re handling the bulk of the responsibilities, even if you consider him to be very involved. Why are you the one both picking up the kids and making dinner?

      A nanny might be a better option, if you can swing it. He or she could mind the kids at your house and then make dinner.

    9. The New Wanderer*

      I went to part time (32-40 hours) after my first child was born, and it saved me from burnout. But I had a supportive manager and could work 1-2 days/week at home if needed. I kept that schedule for 7 years. Now that I’m job hunting, I’m concentrating on jobs that stress flexibility and WFH options. I won’t consider a job that has a butt-in-seat philosophy, a fixed arrival/departure schedule, more than 45+ hours on the regular, or no WFH. Fortunately around my area (pacific NW), these benefits are usually part of the tech company culture so I’m not asking for unusual accommodations.

      In your place, I would consider what a nanny would cost and then determine from that what kind of ‘hit’ your salary could take. Eg if you make $100k and nanny = $25k, it might make more sense to look for a more flexible job with a salary range near $75k. You would get hours of your life back that you could spend with your family. The kind of stress your current schedule is generating… It might be the norm in your current field but it’s definitely not universal. I’d be aggressively job hunting now.

    10. Jimbo*

      I hear you and I feel for you! My wife and I are on the same boat. Our child started school last year which changed things a bit (dropping off and picking up from the school bus instead of daycare) but we can identify with the challenges of balancing work duties, career aspirations, and household and childcare tasks.

      There are employers out there that are more family friendly and it does take some work to uncover who they are. It sounds like your current employer is inflexible about this stuff.

      I recently quit a job and am now job hunting. One of my criteria for the next position I take is that it has family-friendly policies, such as telecommuting and/or at the very least, flexible start/end times. And also, that the work culture not require crazy hours beyond the traditional core 35-40 hours workweek.

      The amazing thing is I AM finding that such organizations exist. It also helped that I am providing clues in my cover letters so when I get contacted for an interview I can be a little confident that this is a reasonably family-friendly place.

      I mention if they ask for salary expections, for example, a salary range but I say also that I can be flexible about the amount if the work environment is family friendly and allows for flex hours and telecommuting. If they call me back that means they usually have such policies.

      Also, many companies have become attuned to this and indicate in their websites that they are family friendly — even using the phrases “family friendly” and “work life balance” in their HR or Careers with Us pages.

    11. Maya Elena*

      Oh man, I am in a similar boat with just one child! Also how do you manage to get yours go beds so early? That’s amazing.

      There is a job board called “Apres” that emphasizes positions friendly to moms- work-from-home, paid maternity leave options, and the like. Their positions tend to be in CA and PNW region.

      Ultimately, though, TANSTAAFL. Somewhere the bill comes due, something has to take a hit. I think it should be your work; you are not in a position to compete with a 20-something who also comes in at 7:30 and skips lunch, but then leaves at 7:30 and still takes work home, instead of going on dates in the evenings to eventually have his or her own kids. So, you might need to bear with philosophy that you can’t be the *best* at work anymore. If you think you might be fired, look for a new job; if not, settle into being reliable-but-not-best. Those people are also necessary.

      With your boss, maybe you can ask for specific examples of how your work is suffering, besides lack of face time? Not having a specific answer might stave off objections in the immediate future, although a new job might be inevitable in the long term.

    12. Natalie*

      I’d take two approaches here:

      1) Throw as much money at this problem as your family can afford. It’s very stressful right now, but unless you are planning on continuously having more kids it is a time-limited problem. Figure out what you can outsource that will take things off your plate, especially on weekdays.
      2) Unless there’s some kind of unusual circumstance you didn’t mention, husband needs to get his ass in gear and contribute to the household more. I am a big fan of Captain Awkward’s idea of similar amounts of leisure time, and I would add they should be distributed throughout the week in a similar way. If one partner is pulling their weight in number of hours, but only does chore on weekends, that’s not fair to the partner that has the second shift every day.
      3) Since it’s not being valued by your boss, stop taking work home. If you can have quality time with your kids and spouse every night without work looming over you, plus a paid assistant to do kid pickup/dinner/cleaning/whatever you decided, it might be easier to spend a little more time at work so you can get off the boss’s shitlist.
      4) Longer term, find a new job maybe? I hate hours-based environments, myself, so I would be looking for a results oriented work environment if I was in your situation.

    13. MsNelsonisMissing*

      Thanks everyone, some very helpful thoughts here and it’s always good to know others are in the same boat. My company’s culture is changing. Flexibility was more of the norm in the past, which is why I am there in the first place. But, new executives and focuses on cost cutting changes things. There is nothing wrong with my work, according to the boss. I am rated excellent in the prior year’s performance evaluations. It’s simply a perception issue. (Big bosses are older men with grown children; my department is 80% younger women with preschool and school age kids.) I’m going to try continuing my schedule while job searching, and see how it goes.

      Other thoughts: Husband steps up a lot in other ways (getting kids up and fed, daycare drop off.) Nanny would be a lot more expensive than daycare ($50K per year vs $25K.) No room for au pair, unfortunately. Oh, both my kids are early to bed, early to rise types. We used the Healthy Sleep Habits book as a guide, and they’ve both always been this way. Up at or before 6am, though. It has its good and bad points, haha.

      Thanks again!

      1. Natalie*

        Can you afford the extra $25K? If so, I would just for it with the nanny. Your stress levels, your mental health, your overall job performance, etc, *are worthy* of spending money on.

      2. J.B.*

        Hmm, ok. I’d still be looking for another job but in the meantime:
        1. meal plan, including making peace with McDonalds one night a week. Also, I have seen daycares giving one kid in the class a late snack/light early dinner, see if you can arrange that with them. You would need to provide stuff but it could lower stress levels.
        2. Bath every other day only
        3. Whatever you can afford towards a cleaning service, housekeeper etc means less to deal with at home
        4. Can you get a mother’s helper? Help getting baths and bed done one or two nights would be a big thing. Daycare teachers sometimes babysit or might have a kid who could come help.

      3. Jules the Third*

        My family does a split shift, like yours (me early, dad late, vice versa to you). The good news: it gets better as the kids hit school. A *lot* better.

        It sounds like your boss is focused on 9 – 6. Would it be possible to swap ‘shifts’ with your husband for a few years, where you do mornings and he does evening pick up? Can he work 8 – 4:30? If you’re still doing dinners, you’ll need to develop slow-cooker or ‘put pan X in the oven at 350 degrees for 45 minutes’ recipes for him though.

        Also, could you change childcare to something closer to one of your work places? Your bottleneck is time, and any minutes you save will help. Even if you love them, there’s probably decent places in areas that are less travel time. If there’s a big cost differential, you could group with other women in your dept and ask the company to subsidize child care, that’s also a very common perk in good companies. For that, HR might be a help, if you have a dept.

        I work for a Fortune 50 company that has consulting / finance / manufacturing / software dev, and their work-life policies live (mostly) up to their promises. This week, our VP asked a roundtable skip interview if our managers were being properly flexible in balancing core face time vs flexibility.

        So job hunt, and think about going back to this company in 10 years when the kids are more independent. Mine’s 10, and I’m starting to think about a consulting stint.

      4. Sibley*

        Honestly, sounds like it’s time for a new job. I’m dealing with a shift in mgmt too, though I don’t have kids. It wears on you. If you decide to start looking, good luck!

      5. Troutwaxer*

        Dear Boss,

        Since I’m “excellent” you have a decision to make. You can decide to accommodate my scheduling needs, or we can talk about a transition plan for my finding a new place to work. What is your preference?

    14. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I feel this so hard. My kids are 12 and 14 now, so we’re past the days of daycare and early bedtime but I so understand. We lived hours from family and all daycare pickup fell to me, except in rare instances where my husband could actually get off work early enough to get them.

      If you can swing a nanny, that’s probably the option I’d go for. Especially if they can also do some housework. Extra help is always good. Other things that might help: daycare closer to your work or your husbands, if they just need you in the office until 5p or a little after to give them the face time they want, then I’m guessing you could do that if the daycare was closer. Your husband doing pickup if at all possible. I know it really didn’t work for mine to do it most of the time, so I understand if that’s just not an option. I’m sure there are some jobs out there that could have better hours/balance, but I’m not sure what to suggest. Maybe try to connect with other parents in the area and see if they have any suggestions for more family friendly employers?

  95. Molly*

    How do you list multiple, separate stays at a company on job applications? I am returning to a job I was gone from for a few years. Let’s say I was there from 2010-2015, then I’d be back on from 2017-present. On my resume I’d just put two separate sets of dates under that position. But on applications, it’s trickier. A lot of applicant tracking systems make you put in actual dates instead free-forming it to list the 2 stays. So my options are:

    A) Just list the very first start date and end date like this: 2010-present, which wouldn’t make it obvious there was a gap in there and could be construed as lying.

    B) List the company twice on my application, with each corresponding set of dates for each one.

    C) Just list the most recent stay from 2017-present and leave off the fact that I was there before, which could be construed as lying again, plus it would be weird to showcase all the experience and accomplishments that came with my first time there when it looks like I’ve only worked there a few months.

    D) Leave off my most recent stay at the company and just list the 2010-2015 experience, which would probably be debunked if anyone verified employment dates with the company and would make me look like a liar.

    1. Not Tom, just Petty*

      The computer system wants a chronological job history. Just put in both as individual line items. The person reading will understand.

  96. AnonAndOn*

    I mentioned in an open thread a few weeks ago about how I’m unemployed (my unemployment benefits just ran out), barely eking by on odd jobs and am trying to find full-time work. I also mentioned that I left a job I held for many years for another one that did not work out and that I only stayed at for a week (due to disorganization, being left alone without proper training most of the time, and other reasons). The one that I stayed at for a week is not on my resume.

    Yesterday I had a phone interview that was arranged through a temp agency for a job that’ll last only a few months. I get the “why did you resign?” question regarding why I left the long term job. My answer is “I resigned that one for another job that ended up not being the right fit,” but it’s not enough of an answer. I get asked why the job I stayed at briefly wasn’t the right fit, I get asked what that one-week job was (I was asked this yesterday but did not divulge its name – I simply said “nonprofit”), get asked why I didn’t consider returning to the job I held for years, etc. I mentioned in my previous post that I knew resigning from that job after a brief period was a “dingbat move” but I was miserable at the job I held for many years and did not want to repeat the cycle of working at another job that I would’ve been miserable at. Yet if I say I resigned from the long-term job without mentioning the one I stayed at for a week it’ll look like I jumped ship without any real plans.

    Is there any chance of me moving on from this mistake or am I sentenced to relive “You left a job you held for X years for another one you stayed at for one week?!” for the rest of my career life? Is there a better way to get around this question and give an answer more satisfying to the interviewer?

    1. Not Tom, just Petty*

      Alison has said, “the job fell through.” is a valid reason.
      You did have a plan.
      The plan was to make a plan.
      Which you did.
      You reassessed your skills, experience and personality to determine what you want to do and what you are not willing to put up with just to have a job. You found companies and positions that seemed suited to your new requirements and you applied and interviewed with them. And now here you are. Good luck.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        Thanks. So even if they push on for an answer beyond “The job fell through” I should just repeat that sentiment?

    2. Temperance*

      I probably wouldn’t say “wasn’t the right fit” because it can come across as flaky. I might have said something like you left because the other job fell through (echoing the previous commenter), and I wouldn’t mention the word “dingbat” or talk about how you were miserable at both jobs.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        I didn’t (and would never) tell an interviewer that it was a “dingbat move.” I only posted those sentiments here.

        But I find that they do continue to push for a specific answer than the other job “fell through.” That’s my concern.

        1. Jules the Third*

          It fell through because the job offer was inaccurate, and did not reflect the actual duties of the position. I wouldn’t have accepted the position if the offer were accurate.

          if they continue to push about ‘how was it inaccurate’:
          Being asked to do X and Y with no training. I’d been told the job was X and Z, which I know how to do, but they dropped Z and added Y. I could do X and Z, but I needed training to do Y.

          This lets you segue into ‘I’d have liked to train on Y, I enjoy learning new skills. In your job, it looks like I’m already familiar with A, but B is new / unfamiliar / I’m a little rusty. What kind of training is available? How long do you expect people to still be learning B?’

          Look for opportunities to turn the conversation back to their job, their needs, how you fit them and where you’d need to stretch, and how *eager* you are to do that stretching.

          1. AnonAndOn*

            Thanks! This sounds like it’ll help with those who keep pushing and fishing for answers. I like the idea of bringing it back to the job I’m interviewing for.

  97. Really Really Tired*

    Background I’m a young professional so I don’t always understand what is and isn’t a work norm and work in an industry with a lot of weird nuances that really only apply to my weird corner of the work world but something I’m curious about is, is it appropriate to ask to leave early just because you’re tired? Now granted I’m often tired due to long hours, stressful deadlines and I commute about 2 to 4 hours round trip every weekday but about every few months (though it’s closer to every few weeks lately) I’ll get so bone tired I know I should ask to just go home (or should have just called in sick). I know some if not all of it is burnout and I’m going on vacation soon but is being tired (and I mean so tired you get eye and lip twitching, feel like a deflated balloon, can’t think straight tired) a good reason to ask to duck out early? Since it’s so consistent I have a hard time convincing myself it’s not just a suck-it-up problem…

    1. Malibu Stacey*

      I think it’s a good enough to leave early but I’d probably say, “I’m not feeling well.”

    2. Friday*

      If you leave early, don’t tell ANYONE it’s because you’re tired. Say you’re not feeling well. And please do seek a doctor’s input to rule out a possible medical condition. But it sounds like between the job and the commute, your body is just telling you it’s had it. Good luck.

      1. Really Really Tired*

        Thanks. You’re completely right I really should see a doctor though I’m quite certain it’s burnout. I haven’t had a longer break than a three or four day weekend in three years thanks to the job and I think it just really finally caught up to me.

        1. Natalie*

          Can you take a vacation? You don’t actually need to go anywhere, if you don’t like to travel.

    3. Althea*

      I’d never make that request. You could go with, “I’m not feeling well” or “I have an appointment” or something relatively non-specific. The newer you are in the job, the less you should do this. If you’ve been around and generally proven yourself reliable in other ways, you’ll have more leeway.

      I would take this as a warning sign that you have burn-out or are in a role that is a bad fit for you, though. I’ve been in bad roles that would manifest as extreme unwillingness to get out of bed and actually go to work. I always did, and I got through it, but if you have a job that is a good fit you probably will not have the urge to leave, or get so tired.

      1. Really Really Tired*

        I’ve been at this company for about three years and haven’t had a vacation longer than a government holiday three or four day weekend since I started so I feel like I can’t gauge how much is this company and/or (going so long without a week or so vacation not the norm for this job or my industry) is a bad fit and how much is I just am burnt out. I’m trying to be patient until I go on vacation next week and come back (hopefully!) fresh eyed.

    4. Anony McAnonface*

      I don’t have any helpful job advice but eye twitching is often due to too much caffeine and when you’re so tired sometimes it can be helpful to have a cold glass of water as well as mainlining coffee. Like COLD water, not just out the tap. Ice cubes if you can find ’em. Rehydrating and a cold shock can be very beneficial for when you have to power through.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Not having a 4 hour commute can be very beneficial too.

        OP, do you have any options to reduce that commute? Stuff like:
        Telecommute 1 day a week
        Stay one weeknight in a hotel / air bnb / friend’s place within a few minutes of work
        Commute on transit, such that you can work during the commute and cut an hour or so / week out of in-office time

        Put those three together, and your 10 – 20 hrs/week commute drops to 6 – 12, with some of it being effective working time that hopefully lets you leave a little earlier one day a week. You might even work a little later on the ‘sleep local’ night and take that out of another day.

        More drastically, of course, some people change jobs to places closer to their house, or change houses to closer to their jobs, but I totally understand that’s not an option in many areas. Just remember:
        – Three years is a good time frame for a ‘first out of college’ job.
        – Some problems, it helps to throw money at them.
        – You should not be this tired (do have someone check for sleep apnea, esp if you snore or are overweight, or other health issues)

        Flextime suggestions like ‘work on train’ or ‘work late Weds and leave early Fri’ are highly variable by workplace – ask your boss about flexible hours before you try it. My company wants availability for about 6 core hours / day, with availability for meetings outside of those hours based on where your international teams sit.

    5. Artemesia*

      I would never do this. Grownups don’t get to go home because they are tired. It comes across as ‘when is spring break’ on the maturity scale. If you are so exhausted you cannot continue then you go home sick. If this happens a lot then you need to address the overwork situation if that is causing it. The commute is really awful; is there no way of moving closer to where you work? It is something you need to suck up and so you really need to examine how to change the circumstances whether dealing with the work overload, the commuting overload or finding a new job that is less stressful.

      1. Natalie*

        Grownups don’t get to go home because they are tired… If you are so exhausted you cannot continue then you go home sick

        This seems really overly literal. The OP is obviously talking about being exhausted, not just “waiting for spring break”.

        1. Artemesia*

          I am talking about impression management. You don’t tell your boss you are going home because you are tired; if you can’t work, you go home sick. The real issue of course is the untenable situation of 4 hours of commuting and a stressful job; no one can sustain that for long.

  98. CynicallySweet7*

    Does anyone have tips for how to stay sitting up straight at a computer all day?

    Some background: I recently changed depts and my new team lead has a bad back from sitting slumped in chairs all day for years, so he often reminds me to sit up straight once I’ve been hunched over for awhile. Having seen the damages of slumping in a chair first hand, on my old team and this one, I don’t mind the reminders; but I was wondering if anyone had tips for being more aware of it myself??

    1. CheeryO*

      I’d see if your office has anyone who can do an ergonomics assessment, or at least read up on it yourself and make sure everything is aligned properly. As a lifelong huncher, it’s MUCH easier to maintain proper posture when your keyboard, monitor, mouse, desk, and chair are all at the right levels.

        1. Laura*

          Get a Pilates Core ‘rocker’ and put it on your chair. Pad the chair with a yoga mat so it doesn’t get rubbed raw.

    2. Belle di Vedremo*

      I loved taking classes in the Alexander Technique, found it fascinating and it’s a very useful tool.

      FM Alexander called it the “use of the self,” and developed a system for enhancing mechanical use of the body for greater efficiency. I recommend starting with group classes, because I could *see* in others what I couldn’t in myself. One benefit I took from it is some physical cues that catch my attention and the tools to address them. Eg, I notice when my jaw gets tight before I recognize that my back aches. A lot of people took the series of 4 classes just once and left with what they wanted; I took them for a couple years because they were fascinating and helpful. My teacher used the metaphor of driving with the brakes on in a car; you can do it, but it’s not how the car was designed to drive. Getting rid of physical habits, eg hunching over to read the screen, can be the equivalent. It takes attention, but it’s been a great tool for me.

    3. Workaholic*

      I’m not sure why but i slouch and lean on my left elbow at me desk ever since i switched to my current team. Even wore out the elbow on my favorite shirt. theoretically the desk is the same height and my chair moved with me. glad you asked this :) i need to figure out a fix too.

  99. Language Student*

    How do you demonstrate tangible skills when you’re still a student and your degree is distance learning?
    I’m an undergrad language student in my second year of a 4-year degree with the Open Uni (an accredited distance learning university). I’m not 100% sure what I want to do when I graduate, so I’m trying to keep my options open – I volunteer as an ESL tutor, I’m learning how to program, and I plan to do some voluntary translation work when my language skills are stronger. I want to graduate with a decent skillset in more than one area, but I don’t have access to research teams or projects that I could help with so I’m not sure how to develop those skills in ways that I can point to and say “In x situation I used my skills in y to…” Any advice?

    1. Alice*

      Maybe you can develop a portfolio — of activities or rubrics you’ve created with your tutoring students, of your code on Github, of some examples of your translated work. Good luck!

      1. Language Student*

        Thanks, I’ll do that! I’d heard of Github but didn’t think about a portfolio of activities and such, that’s really helpful. :)

    2. Marzipan*

      Are you doing any paid work alongside your studies? If not, is this an option (even just very part time)? Or some additional volunteering? A lot of OU students do work as well as studying, and the duration of study gives a chance to build up a solid track record. Don’t underestimate the value of this, even if the work is completely unrelated to fields you may want to go into when you graduate – just having references who can say ‘Language Student worked for me and was reliable and hardworking’ is a big help, plus even the most entry-level job can yield a surprising amount of practical workplace experience.

      1. Language Student*

        I’d like to work – it’s only recently become an option due to complicated household finance reasons, so I haven’t been able to before now. I’m not sure if I should work or do more volunteering (money not being an issue) – I’m a young student with no work experience, so the kind of work I could get won’t really develop any technical skills, while volunteering could (depending on where I volunteer). Either way, it would be good to have another strong reference, so I’ll definitely look more into it. Thanks!

        1. Jules the Third*

          Work! Now is the best time for you to get experience in low-stakes jobs. As great as AAM is for helping explain workplace norms, there’s nothing quite like having to follow someone else’s rules on someone else’s schedule for real.

  100. Snark*

    I’m a contractor and I work at a client office. Raise/bonus/promotion time is coming up. I’ve been doing a lot of work for one particular client and anticipate that she’d be able to provide good feedback to my bosses on my performance. Is there a tactful way to ask if she’d be willing to put in a good word for me? In the past, I’ve used wording like, “As you know, I don’t work regularly with my supervisors, and they really value input from the client on the services I provide you. Would you be willing to provide them with some feedback on my work for you over the past year?”

    Is there a better way to ask than that?

    1. DC*

      That sounds like the perfect way to phrase it. If you’re worried about the wording of “don’t regularly work with my supervisors,” you could just say that “As you know, our direct work with clients make it so our supervisors really value input from the client themselves.”

  101. DC*

    I might be too late, but I”m looking for advice/to vent:

    I’ve got a boss with a few things that are reaching BEC level, but also making me uncomfortable professionally. Just this week:
    1. Repeated personal phone calls. And by repeated, I mean there were 3 half hour calls in a 3 hour period yesterday. One of which was as we were meeting someone for a site visit, meaning the host was just left standing there.
    2. Attempted (I talked her out of it) timesheet fraud with our part-time worker they hired. Who was put under my management because it’s a family member of theirs they hired.
    3. Hours: Our office is 9-5. They are regularly absent or late on account of the kids, leaving us stuck waiting for them. Similarly, there are often last minute schedule changes that leave me covering late evening assignments (sometimes reguiring me to cancel plans, even weekend plans made in advance.). I’m reaching a point where I cannot schedule anything outside of work as I do not know when I will suddenly need to be available.

    I’m looking for work for other reasons as well, but I’m stuck here until Spring.

    1. AnonAndOn*

      No advice, but I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through that. Are you “stuck” because you’re contractually obligated to work there until the spring or do you just feel personally stuck?

      1. DC*

        I’m stuck until the spring because that’s when I graduate with my Master’s and am no longer using my university job for free tuition.

    2. Jules the Third*

      Document. The timesheet fraud (!!!), calls during a site visit, and schedule changes leaving possible coverage gaps are Big Deals, and your GrandBoss needs to know about them. Unless your Boss is the company owner, she’s got a GrandBoss, if only the board of directors. Give them dates, times, etc. Make sure that GrandBoss understands that Boss hired a family member into her reporting line – that’s usually a no-no.

      The excessive personal calls and flexible attitude towards hours are issues that vary per company. My employer is very ‘if the work gets done, we don’t care how long it takes’ (underemployment will usually mean less recognition / bonuses). Other companies and industries are more ‘butts in seats at certain hours’.

      You can also think about how available you are to the unexpected schedule changes. When she comes to you at 4:50 and says she needs you to cover the 7pm Thing, consider whether you can say, ‘I can’t do that’. *IF* you go that route, you should give her (and maybe GrandBoss) a heads up, like “I’m happy to work my scheduled evenings and weekends, but I’m going to be less available to cover unexpected schedule changes. I can do maybe one unexpected coverage a month, but after that, you’ll need to find a different solution.” And then write that down in an email to her and GrandBoss, so that they can’t claim you are refusing to work scheduled evenings. If there’s pushback, maybe use ‘health’ as a reason.

      If none of this seems workable, because GrandBoss is unresponsive or people will die if someone doesn’t cover her unexpected reschedules, then it’s time to job hunt. To quote Alison: your boss is a jerk.

      1. DC*

        Thanks for this. I’ve been documenting pretty heavily, and making sure I’m setting them up in great shape for when I leave (this office likes to bad-mouth folks who leave.)

        That is a good idea for the unscheduled changes- I’ve mostly just been hesitant about the few more flexible unscheduled changes and sometimes Boss will relent and stay. I’ll work on talking about it this way, and reiterating my previous commitments.

        I’ve started job hunting! I’m stuck here till I finish my degree (university employee, free tuition, etc.)

  102. Mac*

    I work in a small town for a small company. Our CEO joined us last year from the biggest company in town, which he left on bad terms according to many reports. I would love to work for this big company and had a good interview with them a few months ago – the job went to another candidate but they encouraged me to stay in touch. The problem? The day after my interview, I had a meeting with our CEO, who brought up the big company out of nowhere, told me how awful it is, then walked me over to his pc to show me that by some oversight, his email and network accounts at the big company were never canceled. He showed me that he could still get into the company’s calendar and many of its top executives had shared their calendars with him; he suggested that he regularly logs in and keeps tabs on what is going on there.
    My theory is that he may have called the new CEO or some other exec there and told them not to hire me after seeing my appointment on a calendar. I am also concerned about applying for future positions at the big company (which I am sure was his intention in showing me that he can still view calendars there). If I do apply there again, do you think I should tactfully ask them not to add appointments with me to their calendars? Is there even a tactful way to do that?

    1. fposte*

      Wow, that’s really wild. I think mentioning if you apply again that your current boss Fergus, a former employee there, is apparently still viewing its calendars and that you’re therefore requesting your application to be kept off of shared materials should be a fine thing to request that would also alert them to his inappropriate access.

    2. Althea*

      If he left on bad terms, his opinion won’t have any weight with them.

      I hope you expressed astonishment at his access to his old company, and made at least some comment like “Oh, were they slow to cancel your access after you alerted them to your ongoing access?”

      I’d probably alert the other company, on the phone. “I feel very awkward about this, but CEO just showed me the access he still has to your calendars. I’d feel very uncomfortable appearing in a meeting/interview with anyone there, as it may alert him that I’m job searching before I am ready to share that information.” Perhaps they will get their act together and take away his access, meanwhile you’ve managed to alert them while focusing on how it affects YOU.

      2. Jules the Third*

        Yeah, with CEO telling him about it, a quick booting of CEO will point straight to OP.

        As to the value of his opinion, even if some of the company don’t like him, there’s often a supportive camp that will still listen to him.

        OP: Stick it out for six months, *then* call Big Company and explain that ‘CEO showed me he still has access to your calendars, haha isn’t that weird, have you plugged that hole yet?’ By then, he’ll have probably shown others or forgotten he showed you. Then you can apply to Big Company again with less chance of CEO knowing.

        Per AAM, companies usually understand that job hunts are confidential, but in smaller job markets / towns where everybody knows everybody else, it’s harder to do that. The leak could be a calendar entry, or it could be that your CEO’s cousin Rachel’s room mate Monica’s brother Ross handles applications for Big Company and is too chatty.

        1. Althea*

          I suppose everyone has different levels of fear with regard to this. But if my CEO pulled me into his office and showed me something unethical he was doing with regard to someone else, I would feel a duty to act to correct it. Presumably going to the other company would be better than telling the CEO, hey, what you’re doing sucks and should stop. I did read this as an intimidation tactic – CEO saying he knows what’s going on in the other company, so don’t even think of going there or communicating with them without his knowledge. That’s a bully move and assertion is what works against bullies, if you can afford to do it.

    3. nonegiven*

      I’d let that company know, right away, what kind of access this guy has. Make a list of what he showed you. Do it by mail, to whoever you met with, copy HR and IT.

  103. AnonforThis*

    I am a trainer and I am struggling with a particular trainee. I have trained about 8 people before but never had someone treat me so adversarially. He seems to act like my comments of his work are all nitpicking (they aren’t) and does not seem to understand I am not his editor, but am trying to get him to a place where he can work independently. I just have never had such a degree of pushback before and it’s really frustrating. I have told him a few times that it isn’t appropriate, but I think I need to get tough. Any suggestions on handling this conversation?

    1. INeedANap*

      Are there any potential consequences you can use as leverage? Such as,

      “Trainee, I need you to be working independently on X and Y by [date]. If I don’t see that happen, [you’ll be put on a PiP, your probationary period will be extended, we’ll let you go]. I also need you to be taking criticism and instruction professionally, which means listening actively and professionally and implementing what I’m telling you, starting right away. Can you do that going forward?”

    2. Jules the Third*

      Have a conversation about the attitude?
      Trainee, I am walking you through this so that you can work independently. It’s very [detail oriented / process specific / etc ] because [ it fits like this in the larger picture / it’s sensitive old software / the tolerances for this are tiny and cost $x for every one done wrong / etc ]. Sometimes, you seem frustrated with the training, and it shows with [specific pushback behavior] – what’s going on there?

      [listen and assess validity]
      Ok, I hear you. Let’s try [alternative learning method / better feedback method] and see how that works. I’m willing to work with you on this issue, but I need you to work with me too. No more [specific pushback behavior].

      Then if there’s no change, go with INeedANap’s script. I think carrots first, then stick.

  104. Moonbeam Malone*

    Yesterday at lunch I overheard a coworker discussing hiring. Specifically he talked about a candidate with an Indian sounding name, who he thought was applying for the job for “immigration status” reasons, and decided to reject. The official reason he said he put down for rejecting the candidate was something different, but from what I heard him say it sure sounds like he just…didn’t want to hire someone Indian. He has made a racist comment to me in conversation before, specifically about Indian people, so I almost feel I should have seen this sort of behavior coming. I wouldn’t usually go to HR about things overheard in the break room, but I really feel I need to bring this up. It’s a small, tight-knit office and it’s a bit awkward. (Also, I’ve never “tattled” on anyone to HR before!) I guess if you have any advice on how to broach the topic, or words of encouragement I’d appreciate it.

    1. Reba*

      YIKES. I hope others have some advice for you, I just want to say I think you’re doing the right thing by speaking up.

      1. Moonbeam Malone*

        Honestly I appreciate it! I figure even apart from the ethical issue it’s a potential legal mess for the company and they’d want to know. I’d hope?

    2. Frozen Ginger*

      I’d definitely bring it to HR from the “because it has to do with hiring” angle. You’re not there to police people’s opinions, but when it affects hiring, it affects the company.

    3. Snark*

      Yes, you do need to bring this up, and I

      I’d approach this with something straighforward and honest: “As you know, Fergus is considering candidates for the Llama Ear Scratcher position on his team. I overheard him in the break room making some comments about one candidate I found troubling. Specifically, he said he’d rejected a candidate because the person was of Indian descent, and speculated that it was because the person was applying for, and I quote, ‘immigration status.’ He has also made some comments to me about Indian people in general that suggests that he holds some bias against them. I’m concerned that we’re rejecting applicants on the basis of protected status, and I wanted you to be aware of it.”

          1. Jules the Third*

            Note especially Snark’s line: ” I’m concerned that we’re rejecting applicants on the basis of protected status”. That’s critical and well-put.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        But he didn’t say that “he’d rejected a candidate because the person was of Indian descent.” According to the LW, he said “he thought was applying for the job for ‘immigration status’ reasons.” Those aren’t the same thing, so if the LW brings this up the should repeat the exact wording, not their own personal inference. For all we know the candidate said that he didn’t care about the job, but needed to find a company that pays for visa sponsorship.

    4. Been there*

      According to annual workplace ethics training the answer to this question (literally this scenario is one of the questions they ask!) is to share your concerns with HR.

      Advice, be factual.

      HR person, I felt I should inform you of a possible situation. I overheard Fergus, on Wed 10/xx in the breakroom discussing candidates with Jane. The conversation I overheard was Fergus stating X, Y, and that he was rejecting the candidate. Charlie Brown and Linus were also present in the room but did not appear to be included in the conversation. I wanted you to be aware of this conversation.

      Good luck!

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      He is opening your company up to a serious discrimination lawsuit so you are not “tattling” by going to HR with your concerns.

      I’d pop by and say “I overheard Fergus say something at lunch yesterday that made it sound like he may be using discriminatory methods with hiring decisions. I know it’s important to the company that we follow the legal guidelines when it comes to hiring so I wanted to make you aware.”

      1. Moonbeam Malone*

        Yeah, intellectually I know that but it feels very weird! Thank you for your advice – I definitely think I’ll be framing it as a legal issue.

    6. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      I know “tattling” is awkward and scary – totally been there – but you’re doing the right thing by both the job applicants and your company by bringing it up.

    7. Torrance*

      As for words of encouragement, I can offer: “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”

      Since you do acknowledge that there is a pattern of racism here, and that racism has now moved from words to actual harm, I think you have a responsibility to report it.

    8. Moonbeam Malone*

      Thank you to everyone who has replied to this! Quick update: I was able to speak with our HR director this afternoon. I started with just telling them exactly what I’d overheard, and then began to detail what concerns it raised. I didn’t even have to start doing that though because they quickly made it crystal clear they were glad I’d come to them, that this is not acceptable to them, and that they would take steps to address it. I didn’t have any reason to believe they wouldn’t take it seriously, but I was still very glad. I guess my one concern at this point would be that my coworker might know that I’m the one who raised the issue but I think I can deal. Thanks again, folks! Have a good weekend!

  105. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

    So, I’m expecting a job offer soon, likely as the direct result of advice from this site (I’m not going to lie, my cover letter was a work of art). But I’m so incredibly conflicted about my situation I’m losing sleep. I’d really like some outside input.

    I live in a small-ish (25k) town that is remote, but is largely dictated by a tourist industry. I work for an organization that I love, with people I love, in a job I love. They took a chance on me and promoted me into a position that I knew nothing about, and in return I have given them exceptional work and really gone above and beyond. I’m saying this as a fact because it has been stated to me multiple times by my employer. However, this area has a massive economic/housing/workforce crisis on its hands, which has only been made worse by a recent natural disaster.

    My financial situation has drastically changed from when I took the position 15 months ago. I can no longer afford to stay. I have contemplated picking up a second job to help alleviate the finance issue but I would not be able to give my organization the same level of dedication that I have been (and is required by the job). Also I have two dogs and working 60+ hours a week doesn’t seem fair to them.

    At the beginning of September, I applied for a position in a low COL area in Texas. Let me say this: I have never been to Texas. Everything I know about Texas I have learned from Dallas, King of the Hill, and the Bush family. I’m a well-educated liberal woman and this job is in a small town about 40 minutes from a large college town. This terrifies me. At the beginning of this week I got a call to interview, which, despite a lot of mixed feelings, I did. They called me 10 minutes after to tell my I was a finalist and to alert my references. This morning (day after interview), I emailed to thank the hiring manager and to give her the contact information for my references. I was contacted 30 mins later by one of my references to let me know that they had been contacted by the org’s HR.

    I’m terrified that I’m going to have to make a major life decision in a very short time frame. Like I said I LOVE my current job and my boss is fantastic. I have not told her I am looking, but I did touch base with her about a promotion this week and was told that I would have to wait for a long time (25 year) employee to leave (who is about 15 years from retirement age) so they could consolidate the departments. I did not discuss my financial difficulties because I think that’s inappropriate and a promotion/raise should be based on merit.

    So the main issue:
    1. I know I need to speak to my current boss if I get an offer. I would like to hold off on accepting until after we speak because I don’t want to slam that door prematurely. However, I know she’s big on loyalty and we’ve had a tough year financially so I don’t want to put her in a position where she feels she is up against a wall. The goal of this conversation is to make sure there are no ill feelings and that we can maintain a relationship, but also leave options open. Any ideas for how to handle this tactfully?

    1. Frozen Ginger*

      Best I can say is to tell her about the financial situation. You worry it’s inappropriate but it is a job issue; you can’t afford to live on your salary. Express you have an offer on the table and you’re not trying to pressure her into a raise, but you wanted to explain why you’re leaving even though you do love this job.

      Of course this will probably lead her to ask why you didn’t mention the finance situation sooner, but you could say that you still thought it was workable for a while and you didn’t want to get a raise because of your situation and not your merits.

      1. Artemesia*

        bosses know when they are paying inadequate salaries; the OP does not need to be apologetic about not asking for a raise. It was up to the organization to compensate people fairly or with a living wage. It is no mystery that her wages are difficult for a high COL area. I don’t know if the OP should take the job (you could not get me to live in Texas, where my parents lived for a number of years), but looking made sense and moving on makes sense and ‘loyalty’ should not figure in.

    2. JN*

      Have you been to this new town as part of the interview process? Personally, I would be very hesitant to accept a new job if I haven’t actually seen where I would be working and living. I also reside in a high COL area with a salary that doesn’t meet my needs (maybe it never truly did and I’m now admitting it), which is why I’ve been job hunting for the past year. I’ll regret leaving, especially as there are pending projects in my position that would be left in stasis until a new person got hired, but I don’t think my departure will come as a surprise (as the salary issue is systemic to the institution).

      I suspect that your boss will understand (but not like) why you may well be leaving the position. Should you accept this offer, as long as you give her as much notice as you can, wrap up your tasks as best possible within that time, leave detailed instructions of procedures, logins, etc for your future replacement, and the like, then I think you’d be doing everything that a responsible employee could possibly do, and everything that would let you part ways with your current boss and company on the best possible terms.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Before you talk about leaving, talk to your boss about a raise based on merit. You’re getting the reviews that support it. As part of that conversation, you can mention your financial requirements have changed, but just in passing. If finances are tight, ask if there’s ways to free up money in the budget – could you take on some additional work in the peak times that would mean they didn’t have to hire one extra person? (Maybe your dogs would be ok for 1 month at 60 hrs?) This will help so that if / when you have a conversation about leaving, she won’t be surprised.

      But I second the ‘visit the town’ big time. I’m a liberal living in a Southern purple state, and it’s hard sometimes (don’t get me started about gerrymandering!). It would take a lot of money to persuade me to move to a small town in Texas, like ‘be able to homeschool my son’ level of $$. Austin’s ok, Dallas probably has some decent pockets, but it’s very hard for liberals to live in small towns in the south.

      There are almost certainly opportunities in areas that are more familiar and less scary.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Surely if there is a job in nowhere Texas, there is one in Chicago or Seattle or Philadelphia or some small town you would like to live in.

      2. nonegiven*

        There are areas of Texas that meet the college town description that are fairly blue and some that are pretty red.

      3. Texan at Heart*

        I definitely agree that talking to your boss ahead of getting an offer is a good move. I also want to encourage you to visit. We moved north from Dallas about a year ago, and I’m having a really hard time with things in my new town (slow pace, racism, sexism, etc) that people expected me to be familiar with from living in TX. In truth, I hardly saw those issues where I lived. That said, I think the difference may really be about small town ca big city, based on what you’re describing. You may want to think about that difference as you’re making a decision about this.

        Depending on which college town you’d be close to, you may find you could live there and commute to the town. I’d definitely be asking lifestyle questions of folks who work there: How quick is smalltown to accept newcomers, beyond the initial welcome? Would my work be impacted if I commutes from biggertown? What do you love about living here and what do you wish was different?

        Good luck!

    4. Drew*

      I live in Austin and which direction you’re going to 40 minutes from here would matter a LOT in whether I would say “Yes, that’s fine, you’ll love it” or “NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.”

      So I’m going to suggest doing some research, starting with looking at the demographics of the area on Wikipedia and then some focused Googling on “Wbat is it like to live in [town]?” Dallas isn’t like “Dallas,” the Bush family is about as Texan as Jerry Jones (i.e., not very), and “King of the Hill” is painfully accurate for some areas, but exaggerated even for those. Texas is WAY more varied than the usual stereotypes would have you believe. Some people here even (whisper it) hate football.

      Don’t let their urgency push you into a hasty decision. Do your due diligence and, if it looks like the offer is sound, loop your boss in and be open to hearing “It’s worth another 20K a year for us to keep you, if that’s what it would take.” But please don’t let Hollywood’s idea of Texas life dictate what you do next.

  106. Sarah*

    Commute/Timing Question:
    I work at a university where our office’s only parking option (without paying $100+ monthly) requires us to walk 10-15 minutes from the garage to our building. There’s also a bus from the garage available, but I don’t mind walking.

    My supervisor says to count this time as working hours, since it’s not our fault that we have to spend half an hour total getting to our office from our parking garage every day. (I’m an hourly employee.) But I could also see the argument that it’s just part of the commute and I should still be in my office chair at my start time. Our work tasks aren’t directly affected either way, but what do you all think? Is it okay to be in about ten minutes late and leave about 10 minutes early in this situation?

    2. Murphy*

      Personally, I would just see it as part of the commute…but if my supervisor told me to count it as work, then I’d count it as work.

    3. fposte*

      That wouldn’t count as working hours any place I’ve worked; you don’t get paid for walking from parking or the bus whether it’s your fault or not. (I’m also at a university, with a lot of parking that requires a similar walk or bus.) I really doubt that university HR knows your supervisor is saying this. I would stick, at least for a while (I’m assuming you’re new) to arriving at your start time and leaving at your finish time and scope out practices both in your unit and outside of it. If the whole university closes at 3:45 to walk to parking, then fine, do it, but until you know that, I’d stick to making my actual hours worked what they’re supposed to be.

    4. Manders*

      Most offices wouldn’t count it that way, but universities tend to have some unusual challenges when it comes to parking and transit, and sometimes working around it is easier than coming up with the millions of dollars the campus would need to fix it. Good on your boss for acknowledging that.

    5. i think my last username was back from the grave*

      I mean if your manager is okay with it go for it! Are you worried about this getting you in trouble later down the line? You could always keep a tracker of how much time it’s costing you each day, if for instance an option comes up where the university can decide to buy or subsidize other parking costs.

    6. Kathenus*

      I’ve worked places with similar parking challenges, resulting in either walks or shuttles being needed at times. This time is not considered work time. It’s great your supervisor told you to count it, but if it was me I’d get that in writing as a back up if it turns out that this is incorrect later from the perspective of someone higher up.

    7. Jake*

      It wouldn’t work that way anywhere I’ve been, and my wife’s current job had a similar set up, and het start time is when she gets to her desk.

      That being said, if your supervisor has okayed it, is take it and be happy.

    8. HannahS*

      I think your supervisor is being kind and generous, and it’s unlikely that anyone else would do that. If your supervisor says it’s ok, then I think you should take advantage! It’s awfully nice of them.

    9. Artemesia*

      Does the supervisor have authority to authorize time sheet fraud? I’d be a little nervous on that as about the only thing I have seen get people fired as staff in a University is time sheet fraud. I doubt the top of the organization views this as part of the work day.

    10. Sarah*

      Thank you all! Interesting to see a variety of opinions. I’m going to shoot for NOT counting walking time as work time, just so I don’t ever have to wonder what will happen if any coworker sees it differently later. Have a great weekend : )

  107. Free Meerkats*

    The Operations Superintendent has announced he’s leaving for another agency, next Friday is his last day. This was announced last Friday. He’s my GrandBoss, for the last 10 years has made nearly weekly visits to our remote workgroup, I get along with him very well, and while he doesn’t really know what we do in depth, he respects our knowledge and abilities.

    Yesterday they announced who his replacement is going to be. She is currently the Plant Manager where our office is located, though we aren’t in her chain of command. I’ve never worked for her, but she seems to be a good people manager from the outside. I guess I’ll find out starting when I get back from vacation.

    On the plus side, I think that she’ll continue with the current plan of making me the Program Manager when my boss retires in 5 or 6 months. We know each other and I believe she respects what I can bring. That’s been my main worry, I don’t know the other internal possibilities very well (because we’re remote.)

    And there are rumors of a pending reorganization, that if it goes as the current Superintendent thinks it’s going to, will totally throw the whole Public Works department into turmoil. This with a new Mayor coming in in January – neither candidate has any PW knowledge, the PW Director is retiring in April, a new Operations Superintendent, and new wastewater treatment Plant Manager.

    May we live in interesting times, indeed.

    But our New Guy, Ver 2.0 is working out very well.

  108. JD*

    California employers can no longer ask job applicants about their prior salary and — if applicants ask — must give them a pay range for the job they are seeking, under a new state law that takes effect Jan. 1.

      1. CAA*

        AB 1676 amends section 1197.5 of the labor code to include this text “Prior salary shall not, by itself, justify any disparity in compensation.” Note that the text of the bill does not actually prevent an employer from asking about prior salary, despite what everybody is saying here and in the media reports, it just prevents an employer from using that information to pay you less than other people of the opposite sex who are doing the same job.

        Employers can still base pay rates on:
        (A) A seniority system.
        (B) A merit system.
        (C) A system that measures earnings by quantity or quality of production.
        (D) A bona fide factor other than sex, such as education, training, or experience. This factor shall apply only if the employer demonstrates that the factor is not based on or derived from a sex-based differential in compensation, is job related with respect to the position in question, and is consistent with a business necessity. For purposes of this subparagraph, “business necessity” means an overriding legitimate business purpose such that the factor relied upon effectively fulfills the business purpose it is supposed to serve. This defense shall not apply if the employee demonstrates that an alternative business practice exists that would serve the same business purpose without producing the wage differential.

        1. CAA*

          Oops! Please ignore the above info. AB 1676 was the previous law that banned using salary history as the determining factor in setting pay rates. AB 168 is the new law that does ban asking for salary history.

    2. copier queen*

      Yay California! Isn’t there an old saying that everything new starts in California and then slowly moves east?

    7. Kerr*

      I’m in California! I am THRILLED that I won’t be required to provide salary history, especially in a cover letter. (The law does allow it to be considered if you share it voluntarily, so you can still use it for leverage in negotiating if needed).

  109. New Job... Maybe*

    I interviewed for a position two weeks ago – it was very informal and the department head has a very small team so can do hiring however he wants. We met up at a Starbucks and I met the other 3 people on the team. It went very well and I got a couple enthusiastic emails about getting things rolling with HR. The last email was an unofficial summary of benefits (I haven’t gotten a salary offer or anything official, just emails with the department head) and a couple sentences about how he was working a few things out with HR. I got this email last Friday.

    So I’m wondering – should I follow up again this Friday since it’s been a week since I’ve heard anything? Or are large corporations (this one is global) just very very slow about getting anything done? I’m kinda worried that it might not happen, but don’t want to annoy them too much by emailing over and over. I just want the job!

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Bea W*

      Yes large corporations are generally slow. There’s all sorts of HR paperwork and procedures and signatures and such. Some are slower than others, painfully slow, but I think it would be fine to just check in and see where it’s at.

    2. Snark*

      Yeah, no, don’t follow up again. My employer is pretty small and nimble, and I’ve never hired anybody faster than two weeks after the interview – two weeks is the fastest, I think. Don’t be surprised if it takes four to six weeks.

      1. New Job... Maybe*

        Thanks a ton. I’m at a tiny tiny company right now and we usually hire within a week of the interview. I’ll give it another week before I check back up.

  110. Not Sick, Just Scheduled*

    How bad is it really to use sick time instead of vacation time when you need a day off for travel/non-medical appointments/other life stuff?

    For context: Based on when I started and how vacation/sick time accrue at my job, I have 7 days of vacation for this entire fiscal year and something like 95 hours of sick time (and I’m still accruing the latter!) My boss is totally fine with me taking sick time instead of vacation time for the above things and we’re a department of two, but if I had a same-level coworker, would this really be the big deal I’ve seen people make of it? Even on this site, I’ve seen a lot of anger directed at people who use their sick time for non-medical reasons…

    1. Bea W*

      If you’ve cleared it with your boss then I feel like it’s not as big a deal, especially if it’s not being abused. What cheeses people off is the lying about being sick to get out of work. Deception is not okay, and calling in sick is always done without much notice and sometimes leaves co-workers in a lurch.

      1. Susan K*

        Yes, exactly. I have some coworkers who believe that sick time is like vacation time and it’s their right to use it all as they see fit. Our employer does not see it that way — company policy is that sick time can be used only for specific reasons (illness, medical appointments, caring for ill family members), so if people want to use it as extra vacation time, they have to lie about it. If you have to lie about it, that’s a pretty good sign that you’re doing something wrong. Now, if you are being completely honest with your boss and she’s ok with it, that’s a different story.

        Here’s why I think it’s a big deal. Many companies do not intend or plan for all employees to use all of their allotted sick time. They assume that most people will use only a few days per year, but a few people will need more. They provide a higher number of sick days than they think most people will use, to allow for those few people who have serious medical problems and need more sick time. Let’s say they assume that 90% of employees will need 5 sick days per year, and 10% will need 15 sick days per year. That averages out to 6 sick days per employee per year. The company gives everyone 15 sick days per year, with the assumption that 90% of them will only use 5 sick days. If they expected everyone to use all of their allotted sick time, they could only give everyone 6 sick days per year, and those 10% who need more than that are out of luck.

        Also, when employers suspect that people are lying about their sick time, that is when they start implementing crappy policies like requiring a doctor’s note. This hurts everyone, including people who aren’t lying, because then they have to spend time and money seeing a doctor even when it’s not necessary (such as when they have a migraine or the flu and would be better off staying home in bed).

        Finally, keep in mind that, by using your sick time for non-medical reasons, you are taking a risk of not having any left if you do get sick. Even if you are the picture of health, you never know if you are going to get cancer, or get in a car accident that lands you in the hospital for a week. Don’t expect much sympathy if you don’t have any sick time left for actual illness because you used it to go to the beach.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think a lot of this really does depend on the culture of your workplace.

      When I was a teacher, almost all teachers (including myself) rarely if ever took sick days… even when they were sick! A sub just doesn’t give the same level of coverage, even if you leave lesson plans behind.

      I worked in one office that was extremely strict about sick time being used only for sickness and not for any other reason. They didn’t ask for a doctor’s note or anything, but you definitely would not want to be found out using it for any other reason.

      And in my current work, my boss has said I can use sick days for even mental health or to take care of my spouse if my spouse isn’t feeling well that day. I’m sure if it was non-medical (but not going to Disney World), my boss now would be fine with it.

  111. Incognito*

    Started my new job this week! I’ve been repeatedly surprised at how fast/easy things have been getting started, nothing like the lumbering beast I left, and my new employer is also huge with multiple sites. Very painless, technologically speaking.

    The commute is slow just due to the location, but that’s the worst of it so far. I am enjoying my quiet office in the back corner.

  112. Fake old Converse shoes*

    Small update: the contract hasn’t been rescinded yet, but it’s a given that won’t continue next month. Emergency resources arrived, the deadline was postponed one week, but there’s little chance we’ll meet it. Also the most senior dev sent his resignation email, effective at the end of the month.
    On a different note, the client start giving away heavily political merchandise for their employees. People were super excited, screaming like teenagers, trying t-shirts in front of everyone, and grabbing all the free goodies they could. No need to say it was impossible to work when this happened. I just can’t stand the people here anymore.

    1. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Also, I want to discuss a raise, but given the current circumstances seems really out of touch to do it.

  113. NW Mossy*

    So I’m struggling with an issue with my grandboss right now, and I’d be interested in the commentariat’s take.

    This week, I terminated an employee on my team for poor performance, with full support from my boss, HR, and outside counsel. I started managing her about six months ago and came in knowing she had a rocky history (multiple negative annual reviews; a demotion that took effect shortly before I became her boss), and unfortunately, my feedback/coaching/PIP with her didn’t resolve the problems. The general response of my team and others familiar with her work has been “surprised but not surprised,” in that the timing/reality of the termination was surprising but that they were well-familiar with the performance issues from their own observations.

    For logistical reasons, my boss and I asked that Grandboss be in the termination meeting because he and the now ex-employee work in the same remote office and it’s best practice to have someone physically present with the employee. From the start, this went…. not great. Grandboss wanted to change the conference rooms for the meeting 90 minutes before it was set to start, leading the employee to first go to the wrong room. During the meeting, Grandboss is getting visibly upset at the employee’s reaction to the termination (defensiveness, which was largely anticipated by me and my boss). After the meeting, Grandboss gives me feedback that I should have enumerated again all of the specific performance issues leading to the firing to defuse her defensiveness, directly contradicting the advice I got from HR to go with a professional less-is-more approach. Finally, Grandboss now wants me to refute for him the ex-employee’s parting statements that she did more work than everyone else and her error rate was better than others (neither of these are true).

    I am really put off by this and can’t tell where it’s coming from. I’ve had no previous indication that Grandboss doesn’t trust my judgment or had any doubts about the business justification for the termination, but his reaction is making me question what he’s thinking about me. Knowing him a little bit, I think there’s some likelihood that this is him just being deeply uncomfortable with sad/hard conversations like this and wanting emotional reassurance from me that this was the right thing to do, but I can’t be sure.

    My next step is to try to get some time to talk to him about it and explore further if it’s coming from an “I don’t trust Mossy” place so that I can take action on that if that’s why, but in the meantime, I just feel so uneasy about the whole thing. I thought he had my back, and now it feels like he doesn’t.

    1. Kathenus*

      From my perspective, I don’t read this as “I don’t trust Mossy” at all. I read it as grandboss taking the 35,000 foot view of this and looking to both 1) understand and 2) document the details in case the person tries to make any claims about their firing to protect the organization. As far as the less is more or detail approach, that can be very individual, so I don’t see this as a red flag; it’s more of a personal style to me.

      And kudos to you for trying to manager her to better performance, and to be willing to take this step when it was needed. I’m sure your other employees see this and respect that you are doing this.

    2. Been there*

      Yuk.

      I’m going out on a limb that grandboss is a ‘don’t make waves’ conflict avoidance type? And the confrontation of the firing meeting hit home. I think you may have missed an opportunity in the moment to let him know that the PIP was established and documented to allow her to correct course and she didn’t and offer to share the PIP with him.

      From the sounds of it accuracy was one of the issues on her PIP. I would follow up with grandboss and provide the information, if for no other reason than to demonstrate the problem and help him come to terms with it. I also wouldn’t put too much stock in his reaction following the meeting, especially if he was visibly upset. I’m guessing that lessons the farther he is away from that meeting.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      I would totally feel like you do, but unless you’ve had other experiences that would indicate this grandboss doesn’t trust you, I would think that personal mistrust is actually low on the reasons he might have had this reaction.

      I have a grandboss who is detached from our day-to-day processes, and then will swoop in and deliver feedback in a “You’re doing this wrong” way without giving us any apparent benefit of the doubt or asking us why we made the decisions we made. Fortunately for my ego’s soft underbelly (though unfortunately for my department at large) I’ve seen her do it to enough people to know that it’s not a reflection of her feelings about me. I think she reacts like this when it’s a project she’s very personally invested in, or when she’s worried about other stakeholders coming down on her for something. It’s fear-based feedback.

      In the past I’ve sometimes gone up to her and said “Hey, here are my reasons for doing this” and she reacts just fine, and sometimes I’ve even won my point. But it has not stopped her from operating as if all her subordinates are just throwing spaghetti at a wall until she comes along to explain how to do things Right.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      It doesn’t sound like Grandboss was included in any prep meetings for the termination. They weren’t on the same page as everyone else because they didn’t have the script. If something like this happens again, make sure anyone involved in the termination has connected beforehand and agree to what will be said.

  114. memyselfandi*

    A senior manager said something is a meeting the other day that made me think this person reads AAM. Anyone else ever think any of the higher-ups read this blog? BTW, this person is also one of the best managers I have ever worked with.

    1. DC*

      I do, all the time. I try and keep things semi-anonymous for that reason, I don’t need them coming to me with my posts.

    2. Sylvan*

      I’m fairly sure a higher-up at an old job read AAM. I never worked for her or interacted much, but she sure did get promoted quickly. Everyone liked her.

      There are others who I wish read AAM!

    3. Jimbo*

      Hehehe I HAVE recommended the AAM blog and Alison’s books to as a resource to the HR director at a couple of old jobs I’ve had! Not sure if anyone in the org other than the HR folks explored them

  115. Jake*

    I’m at my wits end. Been with my current employer for a year and a half now. Every person except one I’ve worked with/for has either left, or is in the process of leaving. That’s 7/8 people in the last year!

    Current project is so woefully under budgeted that it’ll take a herculean effort and a lot of luck to not lose more than 1%. I’m working in the middle of a construction zone as both the “field” and “office” worker, which would typically be two separate people on a project this size. Not to mention, my entire “office” set up is a single fold out plastic table in the corner of a construction zone where it is typically so loud that I have to wear ear plugs just to be safe. Even with the ear plugs, my computer still bounces across my table due to the noise.

    As you can guess, that isn’t real conducive to getting office type work done. On top of that, I’m the only employee that can provide field coverage. This has meant 8-10 18+ (eighteen!) hour shifts for me over the last month, with 3 more coming in a couple weeks. Who knows what they’d do if I was actually sick and had to call in on a Monday or Friday when the nearest person that could cover for me is 400 miles away. When I told my boss that this was unsustainable, and we needed another solution, he agreed, but wasn’t able to come up with anything… Leaving me on the hook for more ridiculous hours.

    My boss (who is leaving soon) called a director to let him know that we had to write the job down over 1/3 of the projected profit due to an estimating response, and the director responded with, “I don’t know why you are telling me, I’m associated with (insert project name here).” This is the same response we’ve gotten from every director that could possibly be in charge of this project.

    When I accepted this position, it was meant to be the first time in my life that I actually had a chance to plant some roots, instead of moving state to state every year or so. For the first time, I bought a house, settled down, and my wife loves… L… O… V… E… S… loves her job.

    I’m not even sure who to go to within my company to basically say that this is not sustainable. My boss has been told (and is leaving), the director that hired me left 3 months ago, my boss on the last project I did is genuinely concerned, but he’s been made aware of the situation and doesn’t want to step on toes, every coworker I’ve had with this company has left the company. The vice president that my old director used to report to is no longer associated with this part of the company.

    I genuinely feel stuck. I’m low-key looking in the local area for work, but its a pretty dead time of year for hiring in my industry, and this is a pretty dead area for my industry, outside of a core group of companies that aren’t currently hiring.

    I don’t really have any advice to ask, just complaining, I guess. I’m frustrated because I’ve followed Alison’s advice to be direct, but my options turned into, “do it or let your project (that is already going to be a minor failure at least) grind to a halt.” Neither is acceptable. I think I’m to the point where Alison would typically say, “you either need to decide that this is worth it and figure out how to work around it, or decide to look elsewhere for work.” Its a particularly shitty position to be in.

    1. LawBee*

      There’s a process that Captain Awkward uses to help people figure out situations like this – usually interpersonal relationships, but I think it would be helpful here.

      If the job were still like this in 6 months, would you stay?

      If the job were still like this in a year, would you stay?

      If three years from now nothing has changed with the job, would you stay?

      Basically in the work context, I think it may help you figure out how long you can deal with this frankly awful work situation until a new job opens up. I wish you the best, it sounds awful.

    2. Been there*

      Can you contact your old director and/or soon to be leaving boss and ask them if they’d hire you again!

      1. Jake*

        Director is 150 miles away and current boys is going 400 miles away.

        All coworkers that left are 150 to 1200 miles away.

        If location weren’t so important I’d have a job in the city yesterday.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m frustrated because I’ve followed Alison’s advice to be direct, but my options turned into, “do it or let your project (that is already going to be a minor failure at least) grind to a halt.” Neither is acceptable. I think I’m to the point where Alison would typically say, “you either need to decide that this is worth it and figure out how to work around it, or decide to look elsewhere for work.”

      That is actually the process working, as crappy as the situation is. Now you’re really clear on what they will and won’t change, and you can take a clear-eyed look at whether you’re willing to deal with that or not.

      1. Jake*

        I agree, but it’s not a satisfying conclusion. It’s not that I’m frustrated with the advice, or think that following the advice is making the situation worse in any way. I just wish the final results were better. The fact that they aren’t is completely due to my company’s way of handling this, and I can’t help but be frustrated with both them as an entity and with the situation in general.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Find the website of your local Associated Builders & Contractors (ABC dot org). They usually have a database of all the member contractors in the area. Here’s my local guide: georgiabuildersbuyersguide dot com. The last time I went through it, it had contact information for the companies. It was another era, but I faxed every company that did +$10mm in business a cover letter & resume. I got 3 call-backs & a job. YMMV

      1. Jake*

        That’s what I’m doing, except checking their website for openings.

        As you know, this is really the wrong time of year.

  116. Anyway*

    I searched for a job for almost a year: 6 months intensively, 6 months sporadically.

    Now I found something and signed the contract. Realistically speaking, it’s a compromise. Let’s say that currently I hold a position of project management support and I will be a senior project manager in my next job. Still the focus is not exactly what I wanted and the salary is lower than I expected although higher than in my current position. The company is well-respected but so is my current one (it’s even more respected actually).

    At the same time I can’t help feeling that I failed. The truth is I had about 13 interviews and was only offered this one position. I apply abroad using a language which is not my mother tongue and I’m a woman in a male field (during all the interviews I met about 40 people, just 4 of them were women. But still.

    The true is also that most of the interviews were very strange, meaning many were badly prepared or didn’t refer to the character of the role at all. In most cases I had the feeling that the hiring managers just wanted to check the “cultural fit”, meaning whether they found me attractive enough or not. I received some awful feedback too (“we would never dare send you to clients” – well, I’ve been working with clients for years, receiving great feedback… And no, I don’t think I smell or was dressed inappropriately).

    I’ve worked in a few professions during and after graduating. All the professions had one thing in common. Although they differed I always managed to excel and received fantastic reviews from both my bosses and clients if I worked with them. That’s why after all these interviews and rejections I feel like a huge failure. Not sure how I could change that.

    1. LawBee*

      Try looking at those interviews as successes – you interview with a company to see if it’s a good match. The ones where they just wanted to see what you looked like? Bad match. The ones with the terrible (and probably fake) feedback? Bad match. It’s similar to how a bad date isn’t a failed date, it’s a success because now you know that person is not the one for you and you can move on.

      You successfully winnowed out the horrible employers, you successfully got 13 interviews as a woman, speaking a second language, in a predominantly male field. You then successfully got a job that is a step up in title and increase in pay. The company is a good company. The reasons why you are leaving your current job are still valid, and you successfully managed that situation.

      I know it may sound like I’m being patronizing, but I really believe that a lot of self-doubt can be helped by reframing the situation. I’m pretty impressed by you, tbh. You sound kind of badass.

      1. Lolly Scrambler*

        This is great advice on reframing that I am going to use for my own situation. Thanks, LawBee!

  117. Ivy*

    My department has 3 full-time staff members, including myself. I supervise one of them; the other supervisory position is vacant. A few months ago, the staff member who is without a direct supervisor told our manager that she was quitting. The employee that I supervise told our manager that if she quit, he would quit also. The manager (my direct supervisor) would not offer details about this incident beyond stating that the employee was having difficulties working with our customers and wanted to be placed in an office area away from them. The organization decided to accommodate her, according to my boss, to avoid both employees quitting the job. My manager went on to explain that it won’t be discussed further because it is viewed as “people whining” and so the matter is closed. This has caused difficulties on the floor, as we’ve become short-staffed due to this arrangement.

    My concern is that I have to give my employee an evaluation for this past year, and we have to have a planning session for 2018. I have been told not to address anything that has taken place, but I am dealing with an employee who either is on the verge of quitting or used the threat of quitting as a tactic to help the other employee. Both seem to be serious matters to me, but I’m to avoid discussing whatever’s going on, even though I supervise this employee directly. Any tips for handling the evaluation and planning session? Thanks for any insight you have!

    1. Chaordic One*

      I hope that you’ll get as much of your reports’ work and procedures documented as soon as possible, just in case he quits. Then I’d go about his evaluation, as if nothing weird was going on. Hopefully you’ll be able to honestly say that he’s done a good job and give him a satisfactory (or better) evaluation. Giving him a lower evaluation based only on whatever’s going on might be the thing to push him over the edge and have him quit right away. I hope he’ll stick around for a bit longer, but he may not be around for much longer no matter what you do.

  118. Nearly a Fed*

    Does anyone have experience with negotiating for a federal job on the GS scale? I am being offered a GS-14 position after passing certification for a GS-14/15 position (and passed at both levels). They’re are basing the 14 offer on the position that I hold now and what grade most people at that level have. I’m early enough in my career (and the pathway to promotion to the 15 is pretty straightforward) that I don’t feel the need to make a hard play for the 15. Has anyone had success negotiating leave time, salary or anything else when taking a government job?

    1. Snark*

      I’ve had success negotiating for what step I’ve started at – like, asking to start at GS-14 Step 3 rather than Step 1, for example – on the basis of specialized or demonstrably critical KSAs/experience/expertise, for example, or if your salary at your last position was higher than the GS-14 Step 1 base salary, or if your last salary was X and you believe your current state of professional development and career advancement would be reflected in a roughly Y% raise. In my case, I had gotten my certified wildlife biologist certification and successfully argued to start at Step 7, which was a significant hike over Step 1. And don’t forget to negotiate COLA!

        1. gwal*

          I tried posting a link but it’s in moderation–COLA is not currently the norm. Snark, did you do this a while back? Google “fedsmith federal employee pay raise and COLA” for an article about the topic. Locality is pretty much the key thing and it can’t be negotiated.

        2. Snark*

          That’s what I meant, locality pay. The thing is, especially if your HR person in Ohio or wherever is not familiar with your area, that’s not always correctly applied to your initial offer. I was offered the locality adjustment for “rest of US” not “Denver-Aurora” because my residence was not in the city and county of Denver.

          2. Nearly a Fed*

            Right – I do have to watch this as I work in a higher COLA state than where I live, so I already have. That means that once they convert me from their local to my local, I’d end up with a pay cut. So, I have a step already in mind based on my current salary and experience and the current locality pay for my area.

    2. nosy nelly*

      Could you try for a higher step rather than the 15 right away? I think they like to see time-in-grade (particularly as a supervisor in the relevant staff/context) for 15s particularly because it’s the top GS.

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, absolutely. GS-15 are, with very, very few exceptions, promoted, not hired, and time in grade is usually a major criterion for that promotion. You generally start at a higher step under GS-14.

    3. The IT Manager*

      You can’t negotiate leave. You can negotiate salary by negotiating your Step. Normally a new person starts at step 1, but a higher step gets you more pay. I know someone who did this about 7 years back.

      1. Nearly a Fed*

        So, I’ve actually heard that you can negotiate leave – that you can request that years of service in a non-federal job in an equivalent field/position be counted toward your leave. I’ve been a support contractor for this agency, in the same line of work for 10 years, so I am hoping to use this as leverage to not start at the bottom.

        1. Long Time Fed*

          Your Service Comp Date, the date you start as a fed, determines your leave category. The only exception would be military time that can be credited.

          1. Nearly a Fed*

            From the OPM website: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-and-leave-flexibilities-for-recruitment-and-retention/

            Creditable Service for Annual Leave Accrual for Non-Federal Work Experience and Experience in the Uniformed Service

            An agency may provide service credit that otherwise would not be creditable for the purpose of determining the annual leave accrual rate to—
            A newly-appointed or reappointed employee with a break of at least 90 calendar days after his or her last period of civilian employment in the civil service; or
            A retired member of the active duty uniformed service as defined by 38 U.S.C. 4303.
            The agency must determine that the skills and experience the employee possesses are—
            Essential to the new position and were acquired through performance in a non-Federal or active duty uniformed service position having duties which directly relate to the duties of the position to which he or she is being appointed; and
            Necessary to achieve an important agency mission or performance goal.
            The amount of service credited may be up to the actual amount of service during which the employee performed duties directly related to the position to which he or she is being appointed. Once an employee is permanently credited with a period of non-Federal service or active duty uniformed service (after completion of 1 full continuous year with the appointing agency), that period of service may not be considered for further credit if the employee has a future break in service.

    4. TR*

      I also was successful negotiating a higher step within the offered grade. I had to provide documentation of my current salary and then it was submitted for approval. It was pretty simple, but when I was getting the information, it really seemed unlikely a person could get higher than the step above their current salary.

      1. Nearly a Fed*

        This has been what I’ve heard from colleagues that were recently hired. They will typically offer you the grade nearest your current salary. But like nosy nelly says above, maybe I can use passing the 15 certification as negotiation for a higher step than my salary would normally warrant?

  119. Other this*

    I help my run a high school competition every year. Next week will be our 25th (and hopefully last) time. My husband is looking at retirement for a number a reasons, including his age and physical health (he is now teaching the children of his original students!) Another factor is that this is a poor school that doesn’t truly support his program (he is in the fine arts) although other programs receive the funding they need. His principal has made comments about how badly they would like him to stay another five years, but his requests for updated equipment that would benefit the entire school are ignored. We have learned that some of the equipment may have actually been purchased but is being held at the district office for one reason or another. This, and other problems when I will not enumerate here, have led me to have a solid “Nope” to doing this for much longer.
    I am likely to have some contact with his principal next weekend. I realize that it is not my place to discuss working conditions with his employers, but what do I say if his principal tries to get me to encourage him to stay? Tell her that the working conditions have become ridiculous? Ask her why she doesn’t support his program? Or just talk about our adorable grandkids which live in another state, and we want to move closer to them (another reason for retirement)? Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      “That issue is between you and Hubsterkins–we don’t like to get involved in each other’s work.”

    2. Snark*

      No, do not discuss any of those things with his boss. Don’t even be tempted. “Oooh, that’s a topic you’ll have to take up with [husband]. I’m supportive of whatever decision he makes, but that’s in his wheelhouse.”

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Do not discuss your husband’s job with his boss! At all! Keep it friendly and light. If the principal asks about his plans, be noncommittal. “Oh, he’s still figuring out what he wants to do.”

    4. Other this*

      Sigh….I thought so, but it is nice to get some confirmation. I will plaster on a smile and behave accordingly. Thanks for the input!

  120. ellis55*

    So… this is about flextime. Our office has flex. My understanding has always been that for salaried folks (me) that isn’t hour for hour but more an allowance of time to stay up on your personal tasks when you’re working lots of hours in a week. I’ve always been sensible about it – a few hours here and there to run errands or go to a cool event. I never get close to hour-for-hour of what I work because I work 60-70 hours a week.

    One of my coworkers takes her flex hour for hour and seems to more or less be allowed to do that. Another is 2/3 time and is also mostly taking hour for hour. I tend to be the only one in the office on our team a lot and things fall to me that are their job. I don’t want to put this to my boss in a juvenile way – that is, “but SHE gets to do it so I want to, too!” but I also don’t want to be working drastically more than I have to if it’s one of those “well, but she asked and you didn’t” situations.

    Some context – my boss is conflict avoidant and the folks who get the perks tend to be the folks with bad attitudes. My boss doesn’t want to raise that with them so she gives in to whatever they ask in order to avoid conflict. How do I raise this appropriately and without sounding lazy?

    1. fposte*

      Flextime seems to mean different things in different places, so I think that’s where you start: “Boss, can you clarify what kind of absences are allowable under the flextime policy?”

      But it also sounds like this might be more than an issue of just flextime–60-70 hours is a pretty hefty schedule, and are you the only one of your co-workers working them? If your full-time co-workers are making their jobs work with fewer hours per week, do you want to do that too?

      1. ellis55*

        I think the thing is – they aren’t making it work. I’m making it work FOR them by being in the office more often. They aren’t performing at the same level. My manager isn’t great – she complains all the time about how they’re lazy and unproductive. That said, it’s clear that she doesn’t have the stomach to manage them into better attitudes and more work. She’d much rather just give that work to me because she’s confident it will get done. This to me seems very much like a management problem, but in raising it I’m concerned I will sound very much like I’m too hung up on what everyone else is getting and too focused on my time away from the office.

        1. Kathenus*

          Stop staying late to do the extra work that they were supposed to do! As long as things are ‘working’ from her point of view, she has no need to manage them or be fair to you. Do your work well, if you’re assigned their tasks that would require you staying longer ask her how to prioritize (you just assigned me C, I also have A and B to do this week. I can only complete two of them, which would you like me to prioritize?)

          1. Althea*

            Completely agree with Kathenus. If your manager keeps asking you to get it done instead of managing her other employees, you could have a bigger conversation with her. Perhaps tell her, “My next 3-4 weeks, I won’t be able to work the 60-70 hour weeks, and I’ll have to prioritize tasks to get done what you most need.” Then, when she starts assigning you extra tasks during those weeks, ask her what to prioritize during the hours you can work. “So you are okay with Z going to someone else? I won’t be able to do it after X and Y.” Then, when you update your status by email, note the progress of X and Y, and make sure to note that Z was assigned elsewhere.

        2. fposte*

          But “performing at the same level as you” isn’t necessarily the definition of making it work. I mean, there’s one way of looking at the problem, which seems to be what you’re coming in with: I work more hours than my co-workers; how can I get my manager to make my co-workers work more hours? But another is that you’re in a workplace that’s encouraging you to have a really high workload yet doesn’t seem to be penalizing people who are working fewer hours.

          Sure, there are fields where people are regularly working 60-70 hours and it would be unreasonable to get out of that. But if you were in one of those, I would expect your coworkers to be getting more blowback than they are. I’m a little concerned that this may instead be a situation where you’re buying into your boss’s idea that your working more hours, no matter how unreasonable, is a logical expectation as a solution to everything, and the pushback shouldn’t be against your co-workers but against your boss’s idea that it’s sensible for you to work a 70 hour week.

          1. Artemesia*

            This. I’d be cutting my work to 50 hours a week and letting the boss know you can’t pick up the overload from these people not getting their job done. Bosses and co-workers are pretty much always willing to let the martyr do all the work for free so they don’t have to manage and the workers don’t have to work. Why would they do otherwise when you make it so easy? Stop being the doormat who will do anything and save 70 hour weeks for genuine crunch times when it is all hands on deck. This doesn’t change unless the boss feels the heat rather than you feeling it.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      We must have the same boss! I have the same flextime arrangement. You just need to ask for more time. Go to your boss with a plan. “In light of the XX hours of overtime I’m working next week, I’d like to take Friday off if that works with you.”

    3. Nacho*

      Is it possible you’re the one working harder than expected? Taking your flex time hour for hour doesn’t really seem that egregious, and 60-70 hours a week is a lot. Theoretically, there are some advantages to working harder than your co-workers, like good standing in your company and the prospect of being promoted if a position opens up, but you need to decide if that’s worth all the extra work you do. If not, then obviously there’s not going to be any punitive actions from your boss if you cut down to a similar schedule as your coworkers. They’re proof of that.

      For what it’s worth, I used to be in a similar position, taking on a lot more projects than my coworkers. It eventually lead to me being promoted above them, but it was made clear to me pretty early on that that’s where I was heading, otherwise I don’t think I would have bothered.

  121. How long is too long*

    How long is too long to wait for a promotion?
    At my 1st annual review, I was promised a promotion “soon.” This carrot has continued to be dangled and it’s now been over a year and a half. I’ve been at my company for almost 3 years, consistently doing the “next job.” I’ve been told time and again that it’s in the works but can’t happen yet.
    My instinct is that I need to get out now because this is never going to happen.
    So for you, how long is too long to wait?

    1. fposte*

      When your resentment starts to take over. That’s not necessarily tied to a calendar date–some people are happy working at the jobs they have if the promotion never comes. But I think you may well be right that the promotion isn’t coming (do you know anything about how other people’s promotions have gone?), and if you’re starting to get resentful about it that’s going to put you in a frame of mind that won’t go away even if you do get the promotion. So yeah, I’d at least look.

    2. neverjaunty*

      It’s not a question of too long here, but how. When there are clear benchmarks for a promotion or raise, that’s one thing, but “soon” + extra job duties + no promotion = it’s never going to happen. They clearly think that they can just give you more work without any additional promotion or raise; there’s no reason to believe that they’ll suddenly decide now is the time.

  122. Agathe_M*

    Question for writers and/or university admissions folks:

    I’m interested in an online masters program in Creative Writing. I’m currently in a writing-heavy full-time professional program (and working part-time in the field), but it’s all technical-legal writing, which is very different. So the masters would mostly be to refine and expand on a personal interest. (Also, my academic background is extremely STEM.)

    The Masters program wants three letters of reference, as well as a significant portfolio, but specifies that those don’t have to be academic references. I don’t generally share my creative writing side with my supervisors at work, or STEM or law professors, and would honestly rather not. Among other things, I don’t want my professional network to see me as “fluffy fiction writer/poet” before I can really get established as “awesome technical-legal thinker”.

    Thus my actual question is, what do they hope the references will say? Are they just looking for “Agathe_M is not insane and does the things she says she’ll do”? The admissions committee will have the portfolio, so I imagine their opinions of my writing carry more weight than a family friend saying “i like her book!”…

    What would you, reading three non-academic references for a creative writing program, hope to see in each? And who should I ask?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in university admissions. A reference from a work supervisor, a STEM professor, and a law professor would each be great because they can address your ability to handle various types of work! Creative writing is often a program where references truly come from a lot of different areas, since applicants are often new to creative writing as an academic discipline.

    2. H.C.*

      In your case, I don’t think these even have to be professional references; they can be references from your creative writing side – people who have read, edited, co-wrote or critiqued your work. But if you do use a professional reference, yes, what they can vouch for is your work skills and how they would help you succeed in that Master’s program.

      1. Laura*

        Only spend the money on this if you think there are good contacts in the programme which can help you find an agent and give you strong cover quotes. Most of these programmes are entirely self-indulgent.

        1. Agathe_M*

          Thanks all–it seems like a really good program, but I’ll definitely look into it more before jumping in. Nice to know that variety is expected though.

  123. LawBee*

    We’re down to the final two candidates for our entry level admin position, and they’re both really good options. Each of them has a lunch scheduled with the staff (and not me, so they can talk) to check that they can at least hold a conversation.

    My only disappointment is that we tried really hard to increase diversity in our small office, but the best candidates by far are both pretty, blonde, young white women. That is not a bad thing in and of itself, but I was hoping we’d have more great candidates from different backgrounds. I feel like we did our best to attract them – all our ads emphasized that diversity applicants were encouraged to apply, and we advertised on a local board for disabled job-seekers. The first screening was a blind screen with no identifying information as to name, age, ethnicity, etc.. Our phone screens were pretty in-depth, and uncovered a lot of weaknesses in what looked like otherwise solid applicants. This is just how it shook out. But I’m disappointed.

    We can’t wait any longer to fill this position. My staff is on the verge of being completely overwhelmed, and it’s been put off too long already. I know either of these candidates will excel at the job, but – sigh.

    1. nosy nelly*

      Rock on for doing the first steps with as many egalitarian safeguards in place as you did! Glad to hear this kind of story!

      1. nosy nelly*

        (not sure what to do about the fact that it resulted in a very Wonder Bread-style finalist pool though)

          1. gwal*

            (i’m caucasian and was trying to pick a word that characterized a non-diverse-appearing finalist pool in a jokey way. sorry to have missed the mark)

            1. gwal/nosy nelly*

              Allison, sorry, can you remove my comment if it’s offensive?

              also boo, my triangulation attempt at anonymity is failing. adios to these nicknames!

              1. LawBee*

                I can’t imagine what’s offensive about “Wonder Bread” to describe a fairly uniform and homogenous group. It’s the blandest bread. An office of people who all look the same is the blandest office. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    2. BePositive*

      As a person of a visible minority, please go for it. I rather lose out to someone who has the skill set you need then someone who would hire me just because I could do the job but I’m from a different culture.

    3. Morning Glory*

      If this is an entry-level position, did you advertise it on college job boards?

      We tend to advertise junior positions to all of the local universities, making sure to include a college targeted toward deaf students, and a historically black university. That may not be an option in your area, but if it is, you could look into it for next time.

    4. Aislinn*

      This is probably not the case since it is a rare occurrence, but not everyone who appears white truly is. Of my grandparents, both grandfathers have Pacific Islander mothers and one grandmother is part Native American, but most people assume I am white because my skin is so light and I would hate to not get a job because it was assumed I wasn’t a diverse candidate even though I was the most qualified applicant. Or they could be a part of a minority religion, or be LGBT, or have a disability. And even if they don’t, you really did everything you could to encourage diversity, so there really isn’t any reason that you should refuse to hire them. Affirmative Action is supposed to prevent qualified applicants from being turned away due to race, not to deny jobs to qualified applicants who are perceived to have privilege.

        1. Aislinn*

          I never said anything about “Wonder Bread”, I thought it was hilarious when applied to the DEA agent from Weeds.

        1. Aislinn*

          It’s very common. I actually know more part-white, part-something else people who are light-skinned than the other way around. Not sure if it’s a dominant trait or most people just aren’t aware that we exist because they think we are white lol

    5. Just, wow*

      My only disappointment is that we tried really hard to increase **the WASPY-ness** in our small office, but the best candidates by far are both **old, ugly, brunette, non-white people**. That is not a bad thing in and of itself, but I was hoping we’d have more great candidates from **white** backgrounds.

      You shouldn’t be allowed to be anywhere nearing the hiring process. Diversity is great, but being disappointed by a qualified candidates skin and hair color and level of attractiveness? The fact that would pass over qualified people if you had more time, just to get a diverse candidate, is the opposite of what affirmative action stands for. And if I found out that I was hired over other qualified people only because I was diverse and they weren’t, I would be deeply uncomfortable. I feel sorry for the people you work with.

      1. Forrest*

        Yea, I don’t understand why the first issue is they’re pretty before getting into a legit problem. Is employing ugly people considered diversity in the workplace? It just makes you look like you really don’t care about having racial diversity – it seems like an after thought.

        1. LawBee*

          It was a descriptor. It’s not an issue. Take the word “pretty” out and nothing changes.

          And diversity is about more than ethnicity, by the way. I say this as a “diverse” employee.

      2. LawBee*

        Yeah, you really really REALLY misread my comment. I’m not disappointed by the final two candidates. I’m disappointed that we didn’t get a broader range of diverse candidates who had the skills to do the job, and I’m wondering what I could do to expand that next time. And I never said I would “pass over” anyone.

        And for the record, your first paragraph is ridiculous. “You shouldn’t be allowed to be anywhere nearing the hiring process” is overly harsh, and ignores what I actually said. Seeing as you and Forrest were the only ones with this reading on my situation, I’m not going to worry about it.

        In short, step off.

    6. Nacho*

      Part of my job is answering questions about our procedures from less experienced employees (how do we do X, what should I do now, etc…). My boss has told me that I should be “teaching them how to fish” whenever possible, basically just telling them “well what does the faq say?” when they ask a question. I don’t know how to do this without sounding snarky and mean, and I remember absolutely hating it when it was done to me when I was in their position. I feel like it would be better to go over the procedure with them and why we do it, rather than refusing to answer their question because I wasn’t their last resort.

      Anyone else have any experience with this kind of thing? Should I push back and ask my boss to let me do it my way, or just follow her orders?

  124. Nyan*

    I have an interview next week for a writing job at an entertainment firm. I’m in the same industry but doing grunt work at another firm,

    Any advice? I’m quite excited though I am expecting several stages of interview.

  125. Sarah*

    I interviewed for my dream job, in my dream city, in a country I’d love to live in, in my dream sector (basically getting to work in my undergraduate major) and was given an offer. I knew I’d be taking a pay cut by leaving my (very well paid) current sector to go to something that’s a bit more academic, but I’m okay with that. My future boss had been fantastic thus far, and when I over-prepared for my salary negotiations, she shocked me to death by offering the number I was going to use in negotiations, hoping we’d meet somewhere in the middle. I used up all the normal salary negotiation talking points in this first phone call to sell myself to justify the salary, but, again, she was great. We agreed on the first number. She said that they’d prepare the contract and send it over.

    The next day, she wrote to me to let me know she had to get the salary approved by the board as it was at the high end of a certain level of the country-wide pay scale, and people normally start at step one. She said it should just be a formality.

    The next day, she wrote to me to tell me they wanted to bump me up a level, and that they were preparing an offer that was both “attractive and fair” and commensurate to employees with similar experience- however, the experience I’m bringing (having worked for major international organizations, for one) is not similar to anyone else’s profile, as well as the fact that I’m relocating nearly 5000 miles for this job.

    She didn’t get back to me after the weekend, as promised, and I had to follow up with her two days later – a full week after we’d agreed on the first number – to see if they had a solid figure yet. She did, and it was 28.5% lower than the number we agreed upon. It’s just my luck it wasn’t put in writing beyond the notes I took on my end of the call, but she knows *exactly* what she offered that day, and if she ever denies offering that salary, I’ll walk immediately because I really don’t need that kind of drama in my life.

    Frankly, I knew I’d take a pay cut to move sectors, but I can’t live on the salary they’re proposing now- it’s way below market rate, even if my previous jobs frankly paid too much, and it’s way below what we agreed upon! I know that the organization needs me more than I need them (the director has said as much), and while it’s taken me a long time and a few abusive work experiences to recognize my own worth as an employee, I do know that I deserve more than the salary on offer, and while it would break my heart, I *am* willing to walk away from the opportunity, but I don’t want it to reach that point. I’ve asked that we speak again immediately to clarify the situation, but I used all my good salary negotiation tactics on the first call. I don’t know what to say this time around. Please, if anyone has any suggestions, I’d be SO grateful.

    1. Daisy*

      I’ve been on the other side of this conversation quite a few times lately, I guarantee you that they (we) can forget the number agreed upon and all the negotiation tactics you used altogether. My manager usually bump in for hiring my reports (he usually do the financial negotiation part) and he can forget more or less everything from the name to the part that we did have a candidate ready for hiring.

      You should have sent a follow back email with the offer agreed upon, but for that is too late. However, since they did reopen the negotiations (without you, ugh!) there is no reason to feel uneasy to start all again if you like the job.
      Since they provided a new role for your position, you may need to readjust you speech tho.

    2. Mr. Demeanor*

      You do not need to re-argue your case or employ new tactics. Keep it simple. You have a number that you must have in order accept the position, restate the number, if they don’t agree to it and/or will not continue discussions, then you may have to let it go, which while that is unfortunate, you are prepared to do. Best of luck.

      1. Artemesia*

        I don’t think you need to negotiate; you did that. You need to say ‘in our last conversation (looking down at your notes if this is in person, referencing your notes if it isn’t) we had agreed on XEuro or whatever, I can’t make this move for less than that.’

        Then stop talking.

        When she winds down restate it. You could mention you are taking a huge pay cut to change sectors but you cannot manage on less than the agreed amount of XEuro or whatever. No arguing here. It is what it is.

    3. Nyan*

      Not too much to add except if they are messing you about with the salary perhaps it’s not a true dream job. I don’t know about you but my dream job def includes good management.

  126. Purple snowdrop*

    This week I sent a report of the findings of a small research project I did with some support from a team member to some members of my team. I was really scared in case it wasn’t what they wanted.

    I got really good feedback on it

    :) I’m thrilled!

    I then had a couple of days utterly unable to concentrate on work because of my personal situation and how scary it is (update on the free for all).

    Ups and downs.

  127. Buffy*

    I’m happy in my job (marketing/comm for a large university), but of course, would love some extra $$$. I’m 11 months into my current position, and got a spontaneous phone call from another larger department to see if I was interested in taking a slightly higher level job with them. (1 salary band up, same general job)

    If I could bend the universe to my will, I’d love to be offered that job at a higher salary and go to my boss for a matched counter offer. But, as I know from this site, if I don’t *really* want to change jobs, I’m playing with fire a little bit. Any thoughts?

    (Also – shout out to this whole site. I was unemployed for close to 4 years, and thanks to the advice here I landed a job I love and now apparently doing so well I’m being poached after less than a year. So thanks everyone!)

    1. Manders*

      Is your boss even capable of making a counter offer? I know that at universities, some departments don’t have the flexibility to change salaries even if everyone involved thinks it’s a good idea. Plus you’ve only been in your current position for 11 months, so you might not be as high priority for retention as someone who’s been in the department for years.

      It’s a nice daydream, but you’re right, you’re playing with fire.

      1. Buffy*

        Yeah, I have heard of a general notion of the university can’t “bid against it itself”. However, I do know my boss would do whatever possible to keep me. I was hired about 3 months after him and he’s told me several times I made his job 1000% better.

      2. Buffy*

        (Side note not entirely related – I chuckled when I read “not as high priority for retention as someone whose been in the department for years.” The only other person on our team has been here for 7+ and my boss would LOVE to be rid of her. Different type of contract, it basically means it would be 1.5 years before she could actually be fired and she exploits that.)

  128. Fishcakes*

    What are some strategies to see my work as just a job – a means to an end? I hate where I work, but have to stay on for a little while. I’m a perfectionist and a people pleaser so I’m finding it hard to distance myself.

    1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      I have been in your shoes! I am not very good at distancing myself. At the end of the day, I’m just kind of person that is going to be engaged, and get frustrated when it goes wrong. But here are some things that help me:

      Perfect can mean different things. Keep in mind the end goal, and perfect means meeting that end goal. Or perfect means you did everything you could, even if the team overall wasn’t able to meet the goal. Or perfect means that when you got that stack of papers, it was perfectly stacked before the staple went through it. Manage your perfection expectations so you can scratch the itch so to speak, and firmly put Things Outside Your Control out of that sphere of expectations.

      Make a goal to learn how to deal with this kind of environment in a positive way. If you learn anything at all from AAM, it’s that there are toxic work environments everywhere, and you’re likely to run into the same issues at another place. So take this as a learning opportunity. If it’s your boss, how can YOU positively affect your boss. If it’s a lack of resources, how can YOU help do more with less. If it’s about a lack of accountability, how can YOU positively affect the culture change. You can’t solve all of the problems, but take this as an opportunity to see how you can make a positive impact. It will be about your professional growth.

      Find your compass. You need someone to keep you knowing what true north is. And by true north, I mean, what is toxic and what is normal. I don’t mean have a bunch of toxic venting fests, but just make sure you’re not developing bad habits or bad expectations that would set you up for failure at the next place of employment.

    2. beanie beans*

      I’ve been trying to pick up new projects or assignments that are outside of my regular duties to help build experience and things I can use for the next “tell me about a time…” question. And getting as much training out of my current job as I can with the hope that I can use it in my next job. Good luck to you!

  129. the dam downstream*

    I’m working on a huge important project that has nothing to do with my job description. In fact, a lot of what I do is totally irrelevant to my job description, and I do it all on top of my actual job description.

    This seems like a great reason to push for re-evaluating what my job actually is, and preferably my compensation too- but is there any way to do that without it looking like I’m holding this huge project hostage?

    I don’t think a performance review is ever in my future, and the project has been ongoing for months and will continue until next spring at least. But I’m exhausted and stressed and I’d feel so much better if there were even a token attempt at making it look like there was mobility in my future…

  130. Morning Glory*

    Out of curiosity, hiring managers/anyone who knows, how many of the top candidates do you normally do reference checks for? At my org we wait until we have a top finalist, and then the reference check is make-or-break before the offer.

    I’ve heard of other orgs doing checks for their top 2 or 3 candidates, and I was wondering if that’s more standard.

    1. LawBee*

      I did top two, so if the first choice didn’t accept, I could reach out to the second immediately.

    2. fposte*

      We usually do all finalists, though I’ve been known to skip calls for a finalist who wasn’t top choice when the delay would lose us our top choice.

    3. Morning Glory*

      Thanks both! It’s helpful to hear how others do it – between this and what I have heard from others, references for the top two at least seems to be more standard.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Depends. When I’ve had a clear front-runner, I often only called their references (which could really only break you, though that almost never happened). If I’m between a couple of candidates and need a distinguishing factor, or have an important gap/question for one candidate, I’ll call for more than one.

      In my current workplace, it’s customary to call references for the top 2-3 finalists even if there’s a pretty clear frontrunner.

    5. CAA*

      I would not call more than one person’s references unless I was waffling between two candidates and wanted to use the references to help me make a decision. For me, the references are usually a final check after I’ve already made a decision.

    6. nep*

      Interested in this question and the answers. I received an email from a hiring manager — she said I seemed suitable but before proceeding with setting up an interview she’d like a couple of references. (Sounds like you all are saying request for references would be only after an interview or series of interviews.)
      In any case about a week later I received an email saying ‘this doesn’t look like a good fit’ — both my references said they’d not been contacted.
      Who knows.

  131. OfficeGrinch*

    I’ve been feeling on and off dissatisfied with my job and my office environment for a while, and I’m in a particularly dark period at the moment. It’s two separate issues, and earlier this year I was focused on the job part because it was really bad. I feel like I’ve made progress – gotten more weighty assignments, an expanded portfolio, and after a long period of overwhelm, they finally hired new people. I do genuinely love my job and the work I get to produce.

    However, I’m still not happy in the overall environment. I find myself getting irrationally annoyed with coworkers’ mistakes, I feel on edge all the time because of our open concept office, and I feel like it’s been two years and I still feel alienated and isolated at work. I’ve tried to put on my big girl pants and deal with it, but I wonder if I’m just not a good fit for the office culture?

    I feel trapped by a small industry in my region, and I don’t plan to move for a couple of years. Do I suck it up and try to stick it out, or look for other options? If the former, are there any tips for surviving an office where you’re unhappy with your sanity intact?

    1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      Honestly, most offices are open concept and that probably wont change. I’ve worked in open concept before and it can be very irritating. I’ve learned to tune things out. Eg. My office has a bad leak and I have bucket collecting the drips. Everyone who comes in says that drip sound would drive them crazy. I don’t even notice it. I’d try sticking it out a while longer. Otherwise you could run the risk of trading one set of problems for another. Good luck to you.

    2. Jennifer*

      Survival tips:

      I remind myself of the consequences of what would happen if I didn’t have this job, and I haven’t been able to find another one in years of searching.
      Also, try to stop caring.
      Also, sometimes alcohol. (Not recommended in excess or for anyone with addiction running in the family.)

  132. Anonymousannoyedcoworker*

    My coworker has multiple personal conversations in our office in another language I don’t understand a day. He does not have a quiet voice, keeps his ringer on loud, usually has to say “hello? Hello?” a few times for every call, and answers no matter the time. We could be on our weekly team call (we all listen in using one phone since we sit so close together) and he will answer his cell phone and keep the ringer on loud. It’s only distracting during the team call or when I’m trying to make a call over at my desk (usually using headphones so I can try to hear over him!) and he’s having a loud conversation in Other Language, otherwise it’s mildly irritating. I can hear it over my headphones. My other coworker who works with him more closely and knows a little bit of the language (only a couple of us in the office) has confided in me that it’s coworkers partner that calls him multiple times a day. Frustrating but I don’t want to bring it up. It’s not because I don’t understand the language, but because he never steps outside or into our break room, answers during team calls (!!) where there is information I need to hear, and never lowers his coice. There is my rant for the week.

    1. Anon for this*

      If you do bring it up, I would just make it about the volume of the calls making it difficult for you to focus/hear others. The language he’s speaking in doesn’t sound like it should have anything to do with the actual annoyance here.

      1. Annoyed*

        Oh it doesn’t have anything to do with the annoyance. I think it just adds to how difficult it is for me to tune out because my brain is saying “What’s that?? I don’t recognize it??”. Thanks for responding

    2. Morning Glory*

      I think you could definitely bring this up with him if you guys are generally friendly – just don’t even mention the language thing as you said that’s not the real issue, and focus on the volume, duration, and disruption to team calls (especially if the rest of the team can hear him!).

    3. Sue No-Name*

      Is there any chance your chatty coworker could claim that these are work calls if asked to stop? That’s where the other-language info from the other coworker might become relevant.

      1. Annoyed*

        We have other language co-workers in other parts of the country who he occasionally talks with in other language. Other not chatty coworker understands a bit of language but mainly sees the phone number come up on chatty co-workers cell. Chatty co’s office phone frequently rings after he leaves for the day with his spouses number. We have access to the number because of widely available emergency contact info. I don’t want to say much of anything because I’m a people pleaser but I think I will say something about the talking during the conference calls.

    4. nep*

      Am I missing something? Shouldn’t a person take personal calls to an area where they wouldn’t be disrupting coworkers? (Perhaps excepting short calls such as, “Can you pick up those shirts on the way home? … OK thanks. See you.” But longer more involved ones — whatever the language, take it somewhere else.)

  133. BunBun's Revenge*

    I have been managing a group of about 20 for nine months. When I came in they had been without a manager for about four months and had been through three managers in the year before that. So, of course it was a real clean up job and there was only one assistant manager working here when I was brought on. She and I get along very well and she was instrumental in helping get things back on track and helping improve sales.

    However, she has had some persistent minor performance issues and mostly related to attendance/tardiness, and I have had to issue corrective actions through HR on a couple of occasions. I have been fairly happy with her performance since the last corrective and felt like things were moving in the right direction. My boss, on the other hand, does not like this employee and has repeatedly told me I should fire her.

    While I was out of the office last week, the employee logged in to our scheduling software and changed her shifts for the week so that she was off on two days I had scheduled her to work (this left her with only three days scheduled for the week when she usually works 40 hours/week). She then called in and told another member of the management team that she didn’t know why I had not scheduled her and could they please put in vacation hours for her so she would still get paid. My boss noticed the changes and PDO usage and is ready to terminate her.

    I have talked to the employee and she swears up and down that she did not change the schedule, but the system logs who makes the changes at what time, so there is hard evidence. It is not technically listed in our handbook that this is an offense, but obviously making last minute changes to get unapproved vacation days while your boss is out is not positive behavior. It seems obvious that she is lying to me, but is there a chance there is some sort of problem with the software? I have been trying to argue that we should not terminate her because I like her, she is a hard worker, and we make a good team, but I am losing the battle.

    Is this a clear cut good reason to fire someone and I should just get over it or should I try to convince my boss to give her some kind of final warning rather than terminating her?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow. Not only did she change the schedule without permission, she lied about it to your face. That is definitely a fireable offense. I’m not surprised your boss wants to fire her.

    2. Temperance*

      This is serious misconduct. It doesn’t have to be listed in the handbook for it to be a fireable offense. She clearly doesn’t respect you, and she’s not above sneaking and lying.

    3. Jadelyn*

      This is absolutely a clear-cut reason to fire. The ONLY possible mitigating circumstance I can think of would be if someone else has her login and could’ve used it to “frame” her, but that’s kind of a stretch. Have you explained that you have system logs showing she made the changes? What did she say to that?

      Honestly, if she was a stellar employee who you’d never had a single issue with and you’d be willing to walk through fire to keep her around because she’s Just That Good, you *might* be able to squeak past this with a stern warning. But for someone who already has performance issues related to attendance…this fits with a bad pattern and it’s time for her to go.

      There are other hard workers out there that you can make a good team with. She’s not the only assistant manager in the world. Think of it this way – you’ve done pretty well with her despite the attendance problems. How much better could you potentially do with an assistant manager who *didn’t* have those problems?

    4. Been there*

      “Is this a clear cut good reason to fire someone and I should just get over it or should I try to convince my boss to give her some kind of final warning rather than terminating her?”
      ______________________
      Nope, this is not an employee you want to go to bat for.

      1. She has a lingering performance issue
      2.She lied about several things (Changing her schedule, saying you changed her schedule)
      3.Your boss has reasons to ‘not like’ this employee. Could that be numbers 1&2 above?

      Why would you put your reputation on the line for this employee? Think of it this way; how many people are out there that could do just as good as job as this employee (maybe better) and won’t need to go on performance plans and won’t lie about unethical behavior?

    5. LCL*

      How secure is the schedule program? Could I log in using her real name and access the program? Or does it require a password that only she would know? Or (shudder) does your office use a shared password? If she has issues related to attendance and tardiness, that totally makes coworkers mad and it is plausible someone would log in as her to hurt her. If it happened the way you believe it did, she should be fired.

      Whatever, why do so many people have access to your schedule? Fix that. There are only two people here who can write to our schedule, me and my equal coworker. Everyone else has to depend on hard copies or PDFs.

      1. BunBun's Revenge*

        There are only three people who can edit the schedule, myself and my two assistant managers and we each have our own unique password that we set ourselves and that we change every six months. Everyone else can see only their own schedule and cannot make any edits, only requests. The employee in question just happens to be one of the three editors in our work group.

    7. neverjaunty*

      Blatant dishonesty means you must fire her, regardless of how much you like her. You know this isn’t a problem with the software, and you know that what she did (waiting until you were gone to cheat her way into vacation days, and then lying about it) is something that doesn’t need to be spelled out in the handbook.

  134. Mocha*

    Is it common practice for recruiters to rewrite a candidate’s resume, including changing the dates?

    I recently applied through a recruitment firm for a position in my industry for which I am well-qualified. After a quick phone interview, the recruiter agreed to forward my resume to the hiring manager who responded with an in-person interview request the next day. Included in the prep materials the recruiter sent me was a revised resume – thirty years of experience condensed into one-page and dated as though it covered a 7-year span. This is what she sent the employer, which resulted in the interview request. I questioned her about the revisions and she explained it was the only way to quickly highlight my relevant experience without getting lost in the screening process.

    Interview day came and seemed to go well. I wanted to provide the interviewer with my real resume, but thought doing so would look even worse (suggesting that the recruiter is a liar is probably not the best tactic, right?). Later that evening, LinkedIn notified me that the hiring manager was viewing my profile. I took that as a good sign until I realized that my LinkedIn profile matches my REAL resume, not the trumped-up version the recruiter created.

    This morning I got the call: “They raved about you, but decided to go with another candidate. They think they may have another position coming up in December and they’d like to get back in touch with you then.” (By now, I know that’s recruiter for, “you sucked.”)

    Obviously, I have no way of knowing whether it was my interview skills, the resume discrepancy or just good competition that resulted in the rejection, but I am wondering if this resume revision thing is common practice – it certainly feels unethical. Is there a professional way to make sure my name doesn’t get blackened with the company (who might be a wonderful potential employer at some point in the future)?

    1. Natalie*

      Rewording or reorganizing a resume isn’t unheard of, but they definitely aren’t supposed to make it inaccurate. Can you switch to a different recruiter?

    2. CAA*

      It is normal for recruiters to remove your contact info and add their own headers and footers. Some will also work with you to improve your resume and tailor it for a specific opening. It is not o.k. for them to submit a modified resume before you’ve seen the changes or at least discussed them in detail on the phone. I would not let this recruiter submit me for other openings at other companies. However, if the company you interviewed with does come back to you in December, be aware that she owns your candidacy there and is entitled to be compensated if you get hired, so you do have to keep her in the loop if they contact you directly.

      In future, it is perfectly o.k. for you to bring your resume and hand it to the interviewer before starting the conversation, even if it’s a bit different than what the recruiter submitted. Quite a lot of candidates do that. If it’s significantly different, you might get asked about it, and you can say that the recruiter prefers to submit the single page format, but you usually use your full two-page resume since it’s more complete.

      It’s not too likely that the changed resume has blackened your name at this company. Employers are very well aware that recruiters tweak resumes to various extents, and unless there was an outright lie that greatly inflated your qualifications, it’s probably fine.

    3. i am more productive at posting than my actual job*

      I’m stunned by the translation for recruiter talk but I realize yeah, they might be stringing you along as a client.

  135. LAC*

    My company is in the middle of a merger and I recently transferred to a location that’s much further along in the transition than my old workplace. I’m from the company that got bought up, and I’m quite happy about it – it was badly run and doomed to failure on its own, and I transferred in part because I wanted to get in earlier on all the new company stuff (and also because old company was so awful at former workplace).

    So, everyone from the old company at the new workplace is extremely bitter about the whole thing and expects me to be on board with this. I am not on board with this. In fact, I think this transition would be going a lot better if we just got rid of all of them. Obviously I am not going to say so – but they’re doing things like 1) refusing to learn new ways of doing things, 2) not speaking to anyone who isn’t from the old company, 3) complaining endlessly about how the new company does a terrible job at everything (even when they are demonstrably doing a better job at something than old company).

    Management at the new location is mostly comprised of old-company people, and they aren’t putting a stop to it (they are all looking to go elsewhere, so with any luck they will be replaced, but who knows for sure). Any tips for dealing with this? I’m going a bit crazy and am looking elsewhere myself, entirely due to the behavior of the old company people. It would be much less bothersome if they didn’t consider me to be “one of them.” I shut down the really egregious stuff but am trying to keep the peace here. Should I? Or am I better off just telling them off and hoping they stop talking to me?

    1. Footiepjs*

      I have no advice, but I know what you’re going through, but from the other side. People have been dragging their feet with integration and there have been a lot of power struggles, to put it mildly.

    2. Kathenus*

      Just stay out of these conversations completely. It’s not your job to shut them down, and you have no power to do so. It’s not your job to convince them to give the merger a chance. And by even being part of the discussion you run the risk of getting tarred with the same brush. Be positive, learn the new routines, talk to all employees old and new, and separate yourself completely anytime complaining starts – physically when you can, by not participating in any way if you can’t. Sounds like if you can get through this, you might be in a great place. Good luck.

  136. Anon for this*

    I’m in the last semester of my teaching program, and my mentor teacher is really frustrating me. She’s a super nice person but a terribly ineffective teacher, and I’m really not learning anything but what NOT to do. Blah.

    1. bb-great*

      That is frustrating but honestly, it’s still valuable. My worst boss taught me more about managing than any of my good ones.

    2. Julianne*

      Ask if you can observe in other classrooms. When I was doing my full practicum, that was super normal for student teachers. I student taught in 4th grade, but over the semester I did 30-45 minute observations in a few other grade levels.

    3. Artemesia*

      50 years ago I student taught in a high school with a terrible teacher; I was not that good and certainly didn’t learn much from him BUT I was better than he was and well received comparatively by students. The result was that I got offered a very rare full time position in my discipline; at that time almost no new grads in my field were getting good jobs and I had one at a very prestigious district. If I had taught with one of the several fabulous teachers on the staff, I am sure the students would have resented me and I would have looked terrible in comparison. So think about what you can learn from this bad teacher and also seek out other teachers informally to chat about teaching strategies and such. You could even ask your mentor who else he recommends as you want to talk with lots of professionals about their teaching experiences. And see if there are any other potential bright spots.

  137. Temperance*

    This is serious misconduct. It doesn’t have to be listed in the handbook for it to be a fireable offense. She clearly doesn’t respect you, and she’s not above sneaking and lying.

  138. Me--Blargh!*

    There is nothing to apply to but receptionist jobs. The medical office ones are starting to ask for previous medical office experience. Urgh. Kill me. I guess I’ll have to grab one if I can just to have a job. I really don’t want another admin job on my resume, but the jobs here suck so much I’m afraid I’ll get stuck forever and there it will be.

    I sent a resume in for a front desk job and they replied with a PDF application, to be returned via email. It wasn’t even a fillable form. I had to print it out, fill it out, scan it, and email it. Lucky I have an all-in-one printer! :P The app wanted SS# (left that blank) and previous salaries (left those blank too). Sorry, but email isn’t secure, and I don’t want that information flapping around on Gmail. And previous salary, yuck.

    Also thanks to everyone who bought the e-book! I hope you like it. I haven’t made tons to donate, but it’s not a very expensive book. I’m no marketer and can only flog it on Twitter and Facebook. Not today–I’m boycotting Twitter in support of Rose McGowan; it’s a hashtag thing. Having withdrawal symptoms, LOL. If you did like it, please feel free to share the link. I’m really frustrated that’s all I can do for PR, but I don’t have means to load up supplies and go there like Bethenny Frankel, or any skills that would be useful in helping them right now, like construction or medical. I would just be in the way and a strain on already limited resources.

    I keep thinking about a client at OldExJob who lived there and wondering if he and his family are okay. He was very nice and funny and I liked him. I have no way to find out, so all I can do is cross my fingers. :(

    1. AnonAndOn*

      The medical office ones are starting to ask for previous medical office experience.

      No advice, but I’ve been noticing that too in my job search. Gone are the days when all they wanted the receptionist to do was answer phone calls and do other basic tasks. And like you, I don’t want to do receptionist jobs either. I did receptionist relief in a past job and doing it for the short time to cover for the regular receptionist was enough for me!

      I really hope things look up for you careerwise.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Yeah, I know–but the funny thing is that the job tasks listed are NOT that much different from any other receptionist positions. Phones, making appointments, greeting patients, etc. You can train someone on HIPAA stuff, but maybe they don’t want to bother. Oh well–the medical office jobs around here pay even less than some of the non-med ones.

        I can do it; I’m just really, really, really, really sick of it. I’m afraid I will never get out of the admin pool if I don’t find something else. And I’ve gone as far as I can go without getting into executive assistant stuff, which is very budget/expense-related and is no good for a person with dyscalculia. It’s a huge Catch-22.

        Good luck to you too! Fingers crossed for us both, and for everyone else who is looking!

        1. AudreyParker*

          With you there! I am really struggling between the need for income and the aversion to digging my own grave and being trapped in the admin zone. And also the Very Specific Requirements (and focus on Excel needs) for even lower level jobs now. I keep trying to tell myself I could do reception for a short time but… no. I never even answered my OWN phone at the last job! Wishing everyone luck, job hunting is so challenging :(

        2. Jennifer*

          Ooh, yeah, I think I have dyscalculia and I do *not* want to work with anyone’s money! But most jobs want you to be an admin, budget/payroll, event planner and travel agent right now and I don’t do the last three in my current job. I will suck it up to do travel and event planning if I have to, but no way am I doing the payroll!

          In general, nobody wants to have to train you any more either. I not only feel boxed in to admin, I feel boxed in this job in particular.

          1. Me--Blargh!*

            Hahaha yeah it would be a very bad idea to put me in charge of anything mathy. But that doesn’t mean I can’t learn software, edit the shit out of your documents, etc. etc.

            Well if I get a job that pays a little more than average, even if it’s shitty, then maybe I can afford some more instruction and save up again for getting the hell out of here. This period of unemployment has decimated my escape fund. :(

  139. Jade*

    I’ve been considering trying to go through a temp agency to find an office job. Problem is I don’t have any *formal* office experience. I do have many of the necessary skills: using office equipment, well versed in Microsoft Office, years of customer service experience, handling phone calls, etc. Do you need to have formal experience for a temp agency to even want to deal with you? I’ve contacted one agency so far who sounded like they didn’t want anything to do with me unless I had “receptionist” or “administrative assistant” titles in my work history.

    1. MoinMoin*

      I would try others, I wouldn’t think they’d all require previous experience unless maybe there’s a lot of competition. In my experience, many agencies have you do some tests to make sure you know how to use Office Suite, your WPM, etc, so I’d think an agency like that might be more comfortable vouching for you with a lack of experience.

    4. i am more productive at posting than my actual job*

      Depends on the agency. I eventually got placed with one that just took my word for it, like you I had some customer service so I think they’re aware that translates. I have been to places that have you take weird tests to prove that you know how to make a word document and I always bomb those even on programs I know how to use. Having a degree helps, if only because you probably had to use a lot of those programs in school.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Companies using temp agencies are generally looking for someone who already has the skills needed to perform the job function and aren’t going to want to dedicate a lot of time to training someone. There may be times when that is not the case, but it’s rare.

      Can you write your resume to highlight those skills? Where did you use them?

      1. Jade*

        Pretty much every job I’ve ever had has involved some use of office equipment, some places used Outlook as their mail system. Otherwise I usually went out of my way to use Word to make documents and flyers for customers and clients, or I used Excel to organize client info or make tables with formulas that could calculate values easily. My supervisors were always impressed with what I created. I even got a government client to compliment me on my “articulate writing.” I feel like I do a good job of highlighting this on my resume. It’s a very accomplishment-based document.

    6. Chaordic One*

      While I did have previous office experience, when I applied at various temp agencies most of them gave me a battery of pre-employment tests. There were tests dealing with spelling, typing speed, speed using a 10-key and tests using Word. (The Word test really bugged me because it wouldn’t let me use the drop-down menus, only shortcuts.) Anyway, I would think that one of these temp agencies gave you a screening test they would see that you are competent and want to place you. I don’t know what else to say except try working with different agencies because the ones you’ve applied to so far don’t seem very professional.

  140. CCM*

    Temp job issue: One of my previous temp jobs was at a company that was acquired by another, and everyone I worked with was laid off. The contact info I had for everyone was company specific so I don’t have their current info for references/verification of employment. Does it make sense to give the name and info of the recruiter at the temp agency?

    1. i think my last username was back from the grave*

      I believe that’s standard for most temp jobs? Usually temps are instructed to say they worked for Temp Agency. You can put in any description “Assigned to Teapot Manfacturing Company”. It has to do with who was actually signing your checks.

      1. Jadelyn*

        My resume has my temp period as one job under the agency’s name, with a sublist of my placements and specific titles/achievements at each place (at least for the ones that I was there more than a week at).

        If you remember names, though, you might be able to track people down on LinkedIn. I’ve done that once or twice.

    2. Beth Anne*

      I’ve always wondered this as well. My very first job a year or so after I left rebranded and changed their name, logo, phone numbers (maybe). So I never know what to do on my resume or for contact info. Granted it’s been almost 10 years since I worked there but it was my first office job and sometimes those crazy apps ask for it.

    3. Buu*

      Perhaps contact the temp agency and ask them if they are OK with it? They may at least then be prepared and able to confirm you worked there and completed your assignments if nothing else.

  141. Sybil Fawlty*

    Well, I just got some bad news. My business has one main client, and they just informed me that their contract with their major client didn’t get renewed. Therefore, they will be shutting down within a year.

    I have been trying to establish new clients but with no success. It looks like this may be it for my business as well.

    So I am thinking I will go ahead and shut down at the end of this year. What do you think? Keep going, spending money, on the slim chance that my client’s issue may be changed, or go ahead and call it this year?

    I’m dreading telling my suppliers, I have a huge project in the works and I just hate this. But there is nothing I can do.
    ugggh.

    1. Beancounter Eric*

      Sorry, but you know the answer.

      Unless you can establish new business to replace current main client, it probably makes sense to begin winding things down and looking for what’s next. Better to shut down in a controlled manner than to keep going with little chance of success.

      Good luck to you!!

  142. Carpooling Introvert*

    Last month I started a new job with a daily commute of 50 miles round-trip. A coworker, who started the same day as me, lives only a few blocks away from me, so we’ve started carpooling 4 days a week. I appreciate being able to share the driving responsibilities and costs, and the coworker is a lovely person. However, one issue arose almost immediately: and she never stops talking.

    The job is a client-facing role, and while I really love the work, by the end of the day my social energy is pretty-well depleted. It’s difficult for me to stay engaged in another 45 minutes of conversation, particularly when I’m the one driving through rush hour traffic. My coworker doesn’t seem bothered by my reticence. At first I thought she might be talking because she was uncomfortable with conversation gaps, but as I’ve gotten to know her better I’ve realized she’s the type of person who is energized by talking through facts and ideas out loud.

    I don’t want to stop carpooling, and I don’t want to offend my coworker, since she really is a lovely person and I like her. (Also, I’m about 10 years her senior, and I definitely don’t want to come across as scolding or parental.) Any suggestions for steps I might take towards preserving my sanity?

    1. fposte*

      You know what the answer is going to be, right :-)? You have to say something to your nice co-worker. Not just a hint–a clear and direct statement. Grab her at work so it’s not a resentful reaction while you’re stuck in the car. “Jane, I really like carpooling with you but I can only cope with the commute if it’s quiet–can we keep it a no-conversation zone? I don’t mind if you want to put in earbuds or read; I just need quiet on the commute to be ready for the transition. Thanks!”

    2. Been there*

      Audiobooks or Podcasts?

      That would seem preferable to me over an overly talkative coworker.

      Otherwise you are just going to have to be honest with her that you use your drive time to decompress/reflect or gear up mentally for your day and while she’s doing nothing wrong, but you would like the drives to be quieter.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, the best way to get a talker to be fueled up while you don’t have to talk is to get her listening to or talking to someone else–like if she’s on the phone or listening to something occupying. See if you can get her on board with that.

    3. mf*

      Playlists! You need some music you can both rock out to while driving. It’s hard to talk when you’re singing along with a great song. ;)

    4. nep*

      Are you looking to learn a language, by any chance? Language tapes seem like a great use of commute time — and could solve the issue of your coworker.
      BUT — language tapes, audio books, or podcasts won’t serve the purpose at all if what you need on this commute is quiet. In which case see fposte’s advice above.

    5. Artemesia*

      You have two choices. Stop car pooling. Or tell her that at the end of the day you are desperate to unwind after all the client interaction and just can’t converse; tell her you are going to listen to Bach or Enya or meditation tapes whatever and get good headphones and lean back and close your eyes. (not when you are driving of course.) Ask her if she minds if you play (whatever) while driving to relax and unwind. Focus on the crazy day that makes a break from interaction crucial to you after work rather than on her jabbering.

      I would be the talker. I would understand your point of view if you came right out with it. I would probably not get a hint.

      1. Drew*

        +1 to hints not working.

        I think your script is, “Jane, I love our conversations in the morning on the way to the office. They really help get me in the right frame of mind for work. On the way home, though, most of the time I’m hoping to wind down quietly for a bit and listen to some music before dealing with kids/husband/house/whatever. If I seem to drift out of the conversation or focus on something else, that’s why. Tough to be morning people in this kind of job!”

  143. louise*

    I’m unemployed and have been for coming up on 8 months, so I’m kind of desperate and need a job. I got an offer in the city where I live now, but I’m worried about taking it because my partner does not live where I do, there are very few job prospects in his industry here, and vice versa for me where he lives. Ideally we could move to a new city and both have jobs, but I’m so lost as to what to do right now. Is it better to take a job now where I might not stay for very long, or to stay unemployed for an even longer time until we figure out a new location? I’m scared of looking like a job hopper, as well. I was in my first job for 2.5 years, then accepted an offer for a contract position which only lasted four months. I would hope in the future to leave the contract work off, but even then – these are not ideal lengths of time to be working.

    1. Been there*

      Take the job. Explaining a relocation and a short term contract position will be easier to explain than a longer gap.

    2. D.W.*

      Agreed. Take the job for the reason that has been stated, but also for stability and peace of mind that paying employment brings you.

      If you had some other promising leads, I would say skip it, but you don’t know how much longer you’ll be job searching if you pass up this opportunity.

      You can always continue your job search.

    3. CAA*

      I agree with taking the job in the city where you are and then continue looking in the new city where you and your partner want to end up.

      Also, contract jobs do not count against you when you’re being evaluated for job-hopping, so the four-month stint is fine. Just make sure to label it as “contract” on your resume. And unless you’re in a really unusual industry, the 2.5 years is totally normal for a first job and wouldn’t make you look like a job hopper.

    4. DBG*

      Yes, take the position if for no other reason then you need a job. I would imagine that money is an issue for you and knowing that I have * some * money coming in really helped me psychologically when I lost my job a few years ago.

  144. Annoyed with Customers (and life today)*

    Every so many years one of our big customers asks for an internal audit. Am I crazy to think that it is too invasive? They want annual revenue, among other things that have been given to them repeatedly and is all public knowledge. Every time in a new format. It feels like busy work, when I don’t need any. It is just the straw that breaks this camels back this week.
    Along with fighting some kind of bug that isn’t bad enough to keep me home, but enough to annoy me and keep me tired and cranky.

  145. Database Geek*

    If I had a second interview at a company but this time with a larger group of people instead of the HR manager should I make sure to write a totally new thank you letter to the group (with the assumption that the HR manager may have shared the first thank you note so it should be different for this group)… or am I over thinking it? I feel like from reading AAM letters in general are on the level of not expected but might help? So I’m not really sure…

  147. tigerStripes*

    On a resume, do you think it’s a good idea to include a subject of “Strengths” with things you’re good at that apply to the job? What about including remarks from recent performance reviews?

    1. CAA*

      I would avoid both of those things. Show your strengths by describing how you used them to accomplish the work. Your performance reviews should also speak to your accomplishments, so no need to quote the reviews themselves. You can use them to get ideas of accomplishments that were important to your manager and then make sure to include those on your resume.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I have occasionally used quotations from performance reviews if they were a particularly evocative turn of phrase that highlighted a skillset that was otherwise hard to demonstrate. I wouldn’t include a comment like, “Jillociraptor met and exceeded all expectations this year” but would include something like, “Jillociraptor has a knack for making a mountain feel like a molehill” to demonstrate that I’m good at making complex processes feel accessible and manageable.

      1. tigerStripes*

        For the performance reviews, I was trying to highlight things like “good attention to detail” or “trusted by co-workers to have detailed, accurate info”, stuff that doesn’t sound as good when I’m saying it as it would when someone else says it about me :)

  148. Keladry of Mindelan*

    Update on my boyfriend’s job hunt- he had an interview today for a researcher position, and they brought someone in halfway through who said that this was also an interview for a separate, admin type position. He got an email later today saying that he was offered the admin position, and not the researcher position. He’s pretty bummed, because he wants a different job, but not if it’s going to involve more of the same admin-type work. I was really hoping the researcher position would work out. Would it be possible for him to write back to his interviewers and restate his interest in the researcher position? Since that’s the job posting he actually applied for?

    0/2 in 2 weeks. It’s getting depressing around here.

    1. fposte*

      As long as he hasn’t gotten a rejection for the researcher position, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to do that; just ask about the time frame on the decision.

  149. not so super-visor*

    So the other day an employee came to me in tears saying that she needed to speak to me. We went into the nearest conference room and she divulged that she has a health condition that has been gradually been worsening, and she will most likely surgery. She was concerned because she has had attendance issues (unrelated to this condition) and zero PTO in her bank. I explained to her that this is what FMLA is for and helped her set up a meeting with our company FMLA coordinator in HR. The next day, the employee ended up in ER for the health condition. She was concerned due to her lack of PTO, and we assured her that once the paperwork was completed that we could retroactivate the date to include that day.
    When she came back the next day, she said that she needed to go in for tests Friday (today) morning. We were already short staffed, but I told her that if that’s what her Dr. needed her to do, she should do it. She said that they were early AM, and she’d be in as soon as they were over. When she came in this morning, she came to my desk to say that her Dr. really wanted her to do more tests and felt that it was urgent that they be done today as it might be an emergency situation. I, again, told her that if her Dr. thought that it was that serious that she should go and get the rest of the tests. I asked her if before she left if she could communicate with her back-ups that she would be out for the rest of the day and put her out of office message up. During this time period, the employee forwarded me a screen shot of a portion of an email from the FMLA coordinator telling her that she could go for the tests today and that she (FMLA coord) would tell Supervisor that she said it was ok. I kind of scratched my head at this as I had already said that it was ok. I was also confused as to why she just sent me a screen shot rather than forwarding but assumed that there might be some medical info in the email that she wanted kept private. Fast forward about an hour, one of the employee’s back-ups for a project asked if she should change her hours (she works a later shift) until we know the employee’s status. I said that it was probably a good idea. I then decided to check with the FMLA coordinator to find out if the employee had filed for intermittent FMLA or continous FMLA as I wanted to know how to classify her time out for our timekeeping software. The FMLA coordinator indicated that they were unsure yet as all of the paperwork wasn’t in, but she mentioned that the employee’s paperwork said that she would be out all of next week. I was a little surprised as the employee had only mentioned being out for the rest of the day. I asked if the week of was due to surgery, but the FMLA coordinator wasn’t sure. She said that the paperwork she had turned in prior to leaving said that she would be out (as requested by her doctor) from 10/13 to 10/20.
    When I mentioned to the FMLA coordinator that the employee hadn’t mentioned this to me, she just said “well, she seemed really concerned with keeping her job and not being fired.” I’m not sure why that was even brought up in the first place. I never even mentioned her losing her job and was pretty reassuring about why this is the very reason that FMLA exists.
    I get it — the need for FMLA is real, and I don’t question the validity of the FMLA request or health condition. I am a little annoyed that the employee didn’t mention anything about turning in paperwork that she would be out for a week and only mentioned being out for the rest of the day. How do I handle this? Do I assume that maybe she was stressed out and forgot to tell me? Do I bring it up at all? Is it normal to just assume that HR will tell your supervisor about your time out due to FMLA?
    For a little bit of history, this employee has had issues with being less-than honest ( as well as her already mentioned attendance issues.) A few years ago, she was almost fired for lying to my boss and grandboss. To get out that mess, the employee went to HR and said that Boss and Grand Boss had called her nasty names during their meeting. There was a huge investigation and in the end, HR decided not fire her (there also wasn’t anything done to Boss or Grand Boss as no one could prove that they said those things) Again, I’m not questioning her FMLA request, but I am questioning her motives about not telling me the extent of her needed time out. I’m also questioning the way that the scenario is being presented to HR.

    1. fposte*

      I’m with you in thinking she’s not handling this super-well, and given her history I’d be raising an eyebrow too. I also think, though, that there’s nothing actionable at this point. I’d just handle this in major CYA fashion and be crystal clear in trackable communication with HR and the employee what the expectations are. Ordinarily I don’t think HR needs to be a regular presence at a communication like this, but the fact that this employee has lied to get higher-ups in trouble and is apparently taking screenshots makes me wary along with you, so I’d cc: them on conversations in re: FMLA to make sure everybody knows what’s been said and when, and I’d proactively keep in touch with them to make sure she’s not communicating information to them you’re not getting.

    2. LCL*

      Yeah, there are certain people that when they have medical issues I have to remind myself that illness hits the just and the unjust. Make as much use of HR as you can to help you. Your company is big enough to have an FMLA coordinator, let them do their job. I wouldn’t bring up any notification lapse at all.

    3. i am more productive at posting than my actual job*

      Sounds like she knows that she’s hurt her reputation and is worried she’s going to be the Employee that Cried Wolf. Compulsive liars tend to get caught in a cycle where everyone knows they lie, so they stop believing anything they say, so when they need to tell the truth it can induce a lot of panic. And the panic is going to double because this is near life-and-death consequences.

  150. i am more productive at posting than my actual job*

    Ugh I’m just frustated with my situation.

    I started at this company as a temp and got hired full time, but by a different department. Old manager loved my work so much as Temporary Teapot Assembly, but she didn’t have openings, so recommended me for Teapot Inspector with a glowing recommendation.

    Dear lord I am terrible at this job. On the outside, maybe to a manager, these look like really similar roles but it’s hard to explain just how different the thinking process is- there’s soft skills I guess that I don’t have the words for. There’s definitely a personality mis-match with the rest of the team, and I have discovered a number of learning disorders, like ADHD and Dyslexia that might be affecting that, but honestly aren’t always a workplace problem. After two years, New manager has me on a Performance Improvement Plan, I’ve had my Final Warning, and there’s a ton of workplace accommodations in place for aforementioned mental issues, but nothings helping. I need to leave, but I think New Manager is reluctant to fire me (we’re about to hit a busy season and company gives severance packages for firing)

    So my issue is really trying to job hunt when I don’t know what the hell is wrong with me, and trying to answer why I’m leaving. I can’t try to switch departments or take a demotion- my performance rating is so low I can’t apply to anything internally. (Old department has since had openings, I gazed at them longingly while the rejection letters came in) And the only problem we have really been able to articulate about my work is “Poor Attention to Detail” . And it hasn’t been a problem before- I did good detail work on making teapots. It’s more like “Brain gets so tired during inspections that I wrote down the wrong date and time on all the reports” There’s also the issue of- I really don’t even know how to translate what I do or did successfully here into transferable skills for other companies.

    It kind of came to a head the other day when I sat down for my weekly one on one with New Manager and she straight up starting talking to me about my outside job prospects. If I’d ever taken a Career Assement quiz. I mentioned that I’m a fidgety person and she said something like “Oooh would you like a job that involves a lot of walking?” It was like getting unsolicited job advice from a clueless aunt, except it was my boss.

    I told her later that I found the comments incredibly demoralizing, and she ushered me into her office to try and cheer me up, but seemed to think I was more hurt by being criticized. I did get a little emotional out of frustration, and I think she might be taking it personally.

    1. Jennifer*

      I don’t think I’m clear enough on teapot inspection to know for sure what you’re not good at, but if ADHD/dyslexia are issues, you may need to look for jobs where attention to detail isn’t specified as a huge deal. And unfortunately, you need to go somewhere else with a clean slate.

      You have my sympathies because I had similar happen to me when I got moved to public service. I didn’t get to the point of a PIP, but I did get “if you aren’t drastically better by the time of your next review….”

  151. Resume Advice for HS*

    Hi All! I hope I’m not too late for this week’s open thread. I work with high school juniors in an afterschool program. I will be having them create resumes soon. I would love to hear some advice on this especially as the materials I was provided are not super helpful.

    What about objectives? The guide has them for high school students but I think that wouldn’t be good for that. Should I tell them to have a longer than one page resume for scholarship or college applications and a 1 page resume for jobs/internships etc.? What about putting their GPA on the resume? Should there be a cutoff for that?

    1. Jennifer*

      Objectives are out of fashion these days, I know that for sure. I think at their age they should probably have one page for jobs. GPA, I don’t know.

    2. floating*

      Nix the objective (not really used anymore), DEFINITELY keep the resume to 1 page (two page resumes can come with experience, but a high schooler has very little of it!), they can put GPA on there if it’ll help them (don’t need to advertise it if they have a 2.5) and same goes through college, once they’re out of school they typically can take it off

    3. nep*

      No on the objective. (I think most young people tend to write something about what they want to get out of the deal — the opposite of what the resume’s gist should be.)

    4. Student*

      Tell them to keep it concise.

      Put GPA on if it is good. Leave it off if it isn’t good. It’s a marketing document; not a transcript. Make sure they know to mark the school’s grade range: 4.8/5, or 3.3/4 – never just list 4.8 because different schools grade differently and I have no idea what 4.8 means in isolation.

      List school honors or major achievements. List any work experience.Transferable skills, if they have any that apply to the job – like if they apply to mechanics job and they already have worked on fixing car engines. One page, single sided, is probably all they need at high school for any purpose, and it’s okay if it’s short. Only go past that if they have an unusually large amount of relevant prior work experience for a student.

  152. NoodleMara*

    Frustrated. I run a very small division of our business that is specialty special custom teapots while the rest of our business is just custom teapots. Back in March the grandboss said we would start selling a specialty special teapot that was new. I disagreed with this and told him it wouldn’t work according to regulations A and B. In our busiest time, he and salesmen forced the issue through despite my warnings against and I made this specialty special teapot very quickly, it was sold fast and the customer did not get approval for it.

    Our teapot audit is Monday and customers auditors just let us know that they didn’t approve the teapot. But the teapot got used.

    So in conclusion ugh. I highly dislike the attitude that we need to sell no matter what. Also grandboss is going to be out of the country for a week so I’ve got to handle it all. Unfortunately I think it’s going to get bounced back to him anyway because that’s all higher level stuff than I can handle.

  153. Llama Wrangler*

    I need advice about asking for a title change. I work in an academic institution and my current title is “‘Llama Wrangling’ Associate.” Its classified as a managerial role, and my guess is that they ended up using “Associate” because that puts it on par with “Associate Professor” or “Research Associate” (aka mid-level in the non-administrative hierarchy). However, my work is most similar to work that is happening in non-profits, not academia, and anywhere else in the field my job would be something like Llama Wrangling Manager or Assistant Director of Llama Wrangling. While my boss and team know the work I do, other people in the field would see my title and think it is much more entry level than it is.

    I’d like to ask my boss about changing my title so that it is more in line with the norms of the field, but I’m stuck in trying to think of suggestions that wouldn’t create problems for our awfully bureaucratic HR department. Manager is actually lower level than what I’m doing now, and Assistant Director would raise HR flags. Does anyone have any ideas of management-level titles that aren’t associate?

    Also, is it weird to ask for a title change because of a disconnect in the field? I don’t want to come across as naive.

  154. Laura*

    So, I really need to vent. A couple of weeks ago I set up a small display in the break room to raise money for a local children’s hospital. I had a professional-looking display with a large sign saying to take a snack and leave a donation, with a labelled (and branded) donation jar to match, telling exactly where the money is going, as well as a short URL to an official, branded donation page which I could monitor. Each snack item also had a label on it with a brief message, the hospital’s logo, and the donation URL. I hoped to make donating as easy as possible. HR posted a short announcement about it on the company network, and I put everything in the breakroom.

    Well, boy am I angry. Because the number of snacks that disappeared did NOT match up with the pathetically scant donations I found in the jar each day, and no one donated through the website. My company takes part in a number of charity and fundraising events throughout the year, and the turnout isn’t bad- so I had some expectations, even if they were low. I understand if you don’t want to donate through a website, or don’t want to bother with a cash donation jar- But seriously? Just taking snacks from the basket, next to the sign with the sick child on it? What is wrong with people?! I messaged HR that I ended the fundraiser early, since apparently my company has a lot of gluttonous, heartless monsters who can’t resist that package of shortbread. /rant

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      Were you expecting everyone who took a cookie to leave $5? Were you prepared to give a receipt to anyone who donated a certain amount? Or were you going to donate the money in your/the company’s name?

      1. Laura*

        I actually was hoping for around $1 or close to it, and I even bought the snacks in a multi-pack so even very small donations would have been helpful. I made sure to have my name and extension number on the sign and jar in case there were any questions. I didn’t find it feasible to have receipts for what I figured would be small donations (pocket change, maybe a dollar), but it also said next to the online URL that donations were tax deductible, and it provided a more secure and official means of giving.

        I understand if people didn’t want to donate online since it would take extra effort and time, but the problem is that people were pretty clearly taking snacks without giving anything- here and there at first, but during the last couple of days it got worse suddenly. It’s one thing if people aren’t comfortable donating that way, and that’s fine- but that doesn’t mean they can just take the snacks with labels on them asking for hospital donations.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I think you have to run it as a doughnut sale for charity. If it’s labeled as free food and left unsupervised, what’s going to happen is exactly what happened.

    3. Alice*

      That sounds really frustrating. But I think part of the issue might be the “donation” language. Donations are optional — the donor gets to choose how much, and even whether, to give.
      But probably if you talk to people who run the other charity and fundraising events, you can see what language they use. Maybe that will help next time?

      1. Laura*

        I made the big sign next to it say ‘Take a snack and donate!’ which I hoped would be pretty straightforward. My big takeaway would have been to write a ‘suggested donation’ of maybe $1, which would have helped, but that wouldn’t have stopped people from just grabbing up two or more snacks towards the end. I’m not sure how someone could have seen that, taken a snack, and figured it was optional- the snack itself cost money, not a whole lot, but they were still packaged snacks that were obviously bought from somewhere.

        1. Colette*

          I think you have to set a price for something like this – not a donation, but a clear price. You won’t get more, but you won’t get nothing. But yeah, that’s a pretty pathetic thing to do. (I wouldn’t be surprised if someone took snacks intending to pay after they got cash, though.)

    4. Chaordic One*

      Piggy-backing on what other people have said about setting a price, when I worked as a volunteer at my library’s used book store, made a point of suggesting a donation, instead of charging a set price. For one thing, if we charged a set price, the Friends of the Library would have been required to charge the state sales tax and to keep track of it. Besides, we ended up making more money asking for donations then when we attempted to set prices on the used books.

      There certainly isn’t any harm in adding a note that says something like “suggested donation of $1.00 per snack” or something like that. I know that I used to get very frustrated and disappointed with certain “customers” who walked out with a stack of books and then only left change in the donation box, but I never said anything.

  155. Bagpuss*

    Had to sack someone for misconduct last week. I’ve never had to sack anyone before.
    We didn’t have lot of choice but I still feel awful about it.

    1. Undine*

      It does feel awful. But remember, if you didn’t sack them, you would be hurting all your other employees, so you did it for them, really.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Thank you. They were actually pretty good at their job, but an issue came up relating to their integrity and some very public drug use, which we couldn’t overlook.

  156. Pudgy Patty*

    Very late in the game here, but wanted to get thoughts from folks here: For the broader economy, where do you think we (at least in the US) are headed? With automation and driverless cars coming around the corner, it seems like so many more people are going to be unemployed with no viable alternative. Sure, there will be new industry like there has been in tech, but it seems to me the same bands of people will migrate there. What about everybody else? What about the average person?

    This genuinely keeps me up at night, and I’m doing better than most. I don’t want to have kids, I don’t want to buy a house, I am scared for future senior living costs (my parents’ and my own), because who knows what’s going to happen in the future? I am deeply pessimistic about where we’re headed. It seems to be unless you’re a billionaire, these milestones are getting more and more impossible to achieve. And I don’t even want “things” — like I don’t need a big house and fancy cars. Even the bare minimum of everything is so expensive these days, yet wages don’t go up, and competition for high-paying jobs is fierce and requires a sacrifice in my personal life I simply can’t do.

    Does anyone have reasons to hope, or should I just hold out hope we’ll have a universal basic income at some point (hahahaha I know, that will never happen)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      We may get universal basic income at some point, but I don’t know that that will really be enough to live on. I worry about this, too. I think the next victims of automation will be taxi, Lyft, and Uber drivers, and then truck drivers. That is a lot of people out of work. I’ve also noticed more stores (Target and CVS, for example) putting in self-checkout stations instead of cashiers. Whenever possible, I go to the real cashier, but I may be fighting an uphill battle. Already, where I live, electronic tolls have replaced in-person toll collectors on bridges. I wouldn’t mind all this automation if the money saved went to the people whose jobs were being replaced, but I know the money saved will just go to make billionaires even more billions.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I think it’s going to be a looooooong time before driverless cars are ubiquitous. A lot of people are squicked out by not being in control and the roads would have to be modified for safety reasons. Which, since nobody wants to spend any money on infrastructure, ain’t gonna happen soon. I think the only folks who will have them are rich folks.

        1. Alice*

          TBH I’m squicked out by the human drivers I see every day who are texting or even WATCHING MOVIES while they are driving. OK, the watching movies, I don’t see every day like the texting and general unsafe behavior. But come on! I trust corporate risk managers and insurance companies to ensure than self-driving cars are safer than the average human driver… at least as long as there’s transparency in accident investigations.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      I think the days are numbered for web-based careers like digital marketing and even the bigger news aggregation blogs like Refinery29/Jezebel. For the former, businesses are figuring out that they don’t need to pay someone a full salary (or hire a whole outside firm) to set up a facebook page and run google adwords once a week. For the latter, advertisers are pulling funds because they’ve realized that image ads don’t work. I recently took a low-paying job at a government-funded org because it’s more likely to be around in 10 years than anything tech-based I’ve found. I’m never working for a small business ever again – those don’t stick around enough for me to consider it a viable career move.

    3. Jennifer*

      I’m with you, not a lot of hope out there. The jobs that won’t be automated are going to be service/care jobs like waiting on people, nursing, wiping butts, etc. Which suck.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, and sadly some of the service jobs out there now will probably be on their way out, too. I can see the waitress/waiter job going away for the most part with people just having food ordered and delivered electronically, even within a restaurant.

    4. WellRed*

      I think about this a lot. Who does Amazon think is going to buy its stuff if it automates everything, puts local businesses out of biz and delivers via drones ir driverless cars? And sorry, but not everyone can or wants to … do whatever it us techhy people do to create these so called innovations and keep them running?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        but not everyone can or wants to … do whatever it us techhy people do to create these so called innovations and keep them running?

        Even if everyone could, the same number of workers wouldn’t be needed, so it’s a no-win either way.

    5. Graciosa*

      I can’t claim to be a futurist so I’m not sure my predictions will be worth passing along. I do, however, want to address something else – your puppy brain.

      I once had an interesting course where a psychologist told us our brains were like puppies who wanted to fetch anything we (mentally) mentioned. Our brain-puppies don’t understand negatives, so thinking “I am NOT going to eat any pie” tells the brain-puppy to search for pie (“Yes! PIE!”) which is one reason diets can be challenging and not actually the main point.

      The main point is that you don’t actually control much of what you’re currently worrying about in a broad sense, but you do control how you think about it and where you focus your energy. I made a conscious decision some years ago to limit my exposure to local news.

      Every single evening – at 4, and 4:30, and 5, and 5:30, and 6, and 6:30, and 9, and 9:30, and 10, and 10:30 – I could hear all the misery I wanted. Families burned out of their homes or killed by drunk drivers, toddlers drowning in pools or beaten to death by people who were supposed to care for them, public officials who committed crimes or lied about committing crimes or accused other public officials of misconduct or unnecessary smear campaigns or – well, the list went on and on.

      It’s really depressing.

      When I spend too much time watching or thinking about it, I get depressed. So I limit my exposure.

      Before anyone accuses me of burying my head in the sand (with some truth), let me assure you that I picked what was important to me to pay attention to. I not only vote consistently (even in local elections) I actually research the positions of the candidates and do the best job I can in casting my votes (or occasionally supporting campaigns). I contribute significantly to charities (also researched and selected every year).

      On a personal level, I also picked what was important to me and took steps to protect it – not focusing on what disasters I expect to unfold, but rather on what I am willing and able to do in my life to prepare as best I can. Knowing I have done what I can helps – then I let it go.

      You ask if I have reason to hope. I’m not a big believer in “hoping” for better things. I prefer to figure out what I can do rather than perceiving myself as a victim of a cold, cruel world.

      It’s not that thinking this way stops tragedy or injustice from happening – it doesn’t. I just don’t want to live the only life I have in misery because my puppy brain is full of “Hopelessness! Despair! Tragedy! Nothing will ever get better!” I found a balance that satisfies me between staying aware and involved enough to contribute where I think I can make a difference and letting the rest go.

      I would urge you to consider your own balance thoughtfully and find one that leaves you feeling that you’re contributing or addressing things that are important to you while also protecting your mental health and finding joy and appreciation where you can.

      Best wishes –

    6. buttercup*

      I have conflicting feelings about this because on one hand, we don’t need more unemployment/poverty. On other hand, I don’t want to stifle technological innovation and default to neo-Luddite reactions to technology. I think there is potential solutions in increasing middle-sector, tech jobs instead of unskilled service jobs. What is key about this is that technical jobs don’t require expensive 4-10 year university degrees, which is a filter that keeps a lot of people out of the workforce. For example, I work in an industry that overlaps with the construction industry, and I’m always hearing that there are very few builders and electricians because young people don’t do these types of “blue-collar” jobs as much as they used to. Growing tech innovation (in IT, clean energy, manufacturing etc.) means they will need more people in factories and warehouses that don’t necessarily need college degrees. The downside is this will need some more regulation so industries don’t get away with exploiting underpaid illegal immigrants, but there is potential there.

      Also, someone pointed out that there might be more welfare/universal salary situation based on the assumption that the economy will be generating wealth in a way where there aren’t as many laborers as there are people. I’m not smart enough to predict for sure what will be the case, but these are some possible scenarios in my head. (I mean, Malthus thought the world was going to run out of food but then it didn’t..)

      IMO, we need to be willing to train people for jobs and get less snooty about having to have expensive 4-year degrees. Lots of white collar jobs don’t really need them and we still filter people out based on them. We need to be less snooty about attending tech/trade schools. (This is all from a U.S. perspective, btw.)

  157. Gaia*

    Wow. Okay. I don’t even know where to start.

    I am on a work trip for the next two weeks. What was supposed to be a project meeting turned into offering me a promotion for the length of the project. I would be responsible for deciding if our company was prepared to go forward with the molds for our new teapot design. Just me. By myself. For the entire company.

    The position would last at least 8 months but after this it is unclear what happens. Do I got back to my job I have now? If so, what happens to my staff while I am gone? Do I find myself out of work? Do I do something different? No one seems to really know and that makes it hard to be THRILLED.

    Oh and the other thing? I have to live in another country for 2 – 4 months. So there is that. Sigh. I am happy. I am excited. I’ve definitely got a strong bit of imposter syndrome. But I’m also really drained. I think it might be shock.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      It would be difficult to make a decision about this without that information. If it were me, I would not accept it until I knew what would happen after the eight months is up.

      1. Gaia*

        I think the trouble is that no one knows. It is possible we’ll have a position for manager of teapot molds but that has yet to be determined. I’m meeting with grandboss and great grandboss early next week and will talk about those concerns. Everyone seems super stoked for me to do this and, to be fair, it is what I’ve been telling people I want to do for a long time but….I like having a job so…things.

    2. Artemesia*

      I have seen someone ‘let go’ after they were promoted to a specialized project and then their regular job given to others; there was no ‘need’ for them after the project was done. At least you need a game plan for your job subsequent to the project. A very reasonable thing to have laid out.

      1. Gaia*

        That is the very real concern. There is a need for this role long term but it is one we’ve never had before and so there is a risk that the business won’t realize that need until it doesn’t exist (currently I am doing it, but at a lower level).

  158. Etcetera*

    How do I find professional development opportunities? My boss wants me to attend some classes and seminars to expand my knowledge of HR and accounting (which I assist her with) and IT (my own department), but the only resource she suggested – EDD courses – is perhaps more limited in scope than she remembers. We have a decent community college system in town, plus we’re only an hour from San Francisco, so I’m sure there must be resources available (especially for IT), but how do I find them? And how do I know what’s going to be useful and practical for someone at my level? I’ve been in the work world a couple decades but this is my first long-term straight-up office job, and having an employer be interested in my continuing development is very new, so I’m totally flailing here. Any advice would be much appreciated!

    1. JanetM*

      Is there a local chapter of a professional association you can join? HDI (used to be Help Desk International) is good for IT issues, and there might be local user groups. SHRM might be good for HR. Not sure what to suggest for accounting.

      Do you have access to Lynda.com, or would your company pay for a subscription? There’s also Khan Academy, which is free but has a narrower selection and less vetting of presenters.

      Can you look up conferences and, even if you can’t attend them, look at the sponsors and see if any of them provide educational services?

      Fred Pryor Seminars / CareerTrack are fairly popular, but I have not had good experiences with them personally. Your mileage may vary.

      1. Etcetera*

        I feel a little presumptuous asking for the company to pay for a professional association membership or a Lynda subscription, although that might be the inferiority complex talking. I’ll check out Khan Academy and CareerTrack. I’m not sure how to even look up conferences – do I just google “HR Conference [my town]”? Is there a place I can find listings?

        1. Alice*

          Lynda.com would not be presumptuous at all! You boss asked you to attend some training; this is training.
          Also maybe try professional associations of HR people and look up their online certifications or continuing ed?

          1. Alice*

            Or look for the qualifications requested by other job ads. Not that you want to move on from this wonderland of professional development support anytime soon, but just to know what’s out there. :)

    3. periwinkle*

      For the essentials of HR, try the Essentials of HR! The Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) offers a certificate suitable for people just starting out or who need a broad overview of HR activities. You can take Essentials of Human Resources as a self-study course ($460 for non-SHRM members), an online or in-person course through a university, or an in-person seminar through SHRM (a bit under $1600 for non-members). Way back when, I took it as a workshop through George Mason University; they now offer it as a 6-week online course for about $700.

      Companies paying for employee professional development is reasonably common because they expect to benefit from your improved knowledge and skills. It’s a good bargain for both sides, although double-check on any conditions they place on paying for development (such as a requirement to pay some or all of it back if you leave within a certain period after taking the course).

    4. Chaordic One*

      I hope this doesn’t sound corny, but I’ve had very good luck and learned a lot by taking night classes offered by my local community college.

  159. JanetM*

    I work with managers and subject-matter experts to help them develop security plans for their IT systems. Typically, I sit down with 2-5 people and go through the plan template, asking / interpreting each question and writing down their answers over the course of several meetings.

    Today, I had the following conversation with a manager and an SME:

    Me: We are making really good progress; I don’t think I’ve gotten this far on an initial meeting before.

    SME: This really isn’t bad; it isn’t what I was expecting.

    Me: What *were* you expecting?

    SME: Dental exam.

    Manager, near-simultaneously: Prostate exam.

    Me: Well, that’s good to know.

  160. mary*

    I started a new job just over a month ago. It was a few steps back from where I was in my career, but, becuase of my partner’s promotion we were relocated and it was necessary for me to find a new position. It is in the same industry and in the same department. The title is only one step back from what I was doing previously, but the role doesn’t actually involve any of the work I loved doing. My new boss asked me why I wanted to make the step backwards and I was comfortable telling her that I still had much to learn to make me a great HR manager (the role I was in previously and the role she is in currently.) I have not had any related work since starting at the new company and my boss has only spoken to me once since I’ve started – just to check in at the end of week 1 to see how things were going. My work is assigned via another individual on our team and via our finance department.
    Today, my boss casually mentioned that I would be doing more finance work soon. She said that had thought about hiring someone to join that team part-time, but decided I should just do it. She then told me that if I didn’t want to, there wouldn’t be any reason for me to keep my job. This all happened over the span of a minute. I am shocked- first of all it was a horribly inappropriate way to tell someone that their responsibilities would need to change and also because she knew I was happy to take a step back in my career in order to learn more from her. She’s not very approchable and I’ve already had others in the organization tell me that (unsolicited) that she is not a very empathetic person. I know this is largely my fault for taking a job that wasn’t quite that I wanted. Any advice?

    1. Kerr*

      It can’t hurt to start looking, right? It would be a good time to switch, actually – you could easily leave a 1-3 month stint off your resume, and explain that you relocated with your partner.

  161. Jenny P*

    I have a problem. I have 5 staff members who are all part time and all on the same level. They are in the same position I started in at our institution, and one of them started the same day I did. She has chosen to stay in that position while I’ve chosen to grow. We’ve never gone up against each other for a new job, as she’s never applied outside that position.

    The problem is that she is now trying to speak for their entire group in meetings or other conversations, sometimes when they are present and sometimes when they are not. I take having personal relationships with each employee seriously, and I am not comfortable with trying to represent the entire group on and ongoing basis. She also does this without a title change or compensation, which would be unfair in the long term.

    In a team meeting last week she wanted to offer me feedback about an event when she had not been present. I told her in front of the group that I was not comfortable with her representing them when she was not there, and that a position like that does not exist within our organization. Someone else did speak up and offer feedback about the day, and we all talked about our processes in general and how they could be improved.

    Yesterday my director approached me and said that this employee had come to complain and that she wanted to mediate a conversation between us. Unfortunately, my director tends to try to please everyone and will not necessarily back me up, so I know that I need to go in prepared, clear, and direct.

    If anyone has advice on how to handle this situation I would appreciate it!

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      You know the answer is to manage her, right?

      To be honest, I don’t think that feedback should have been given in front of a group. I actually think you need to keep it simpler in that kind of situation eg “I’d prefer to hear from someone who was there – Jane, can you tell us how the teapot presentations went?” Keep it simple, clear and matter of fact.

      I think you could both explain what you need to change and acknowledge that feedback was not ideal for a group.

  162. Caelyn*

    Is anyone an Executive Assistant?

    I’m a finalist for an EA job for a small company, having never been an EA before. The job is great – 20k more than my current salary, benefits, and unlimited PTO. It’s a new position because the company is growing, and the owner said he’d want me to be the face of the company and point of contact for the clients while he’s out doing sales.
    When I interviewed, the owner repeatedly told me I was very impressive, and I sent my thank you email immediately after I got home. I’m supposed to know next week (fingers crossed!).

    Anyway… my real question: for those of you who are EAs, what’s your secret to success and/or the one thing you wish you’d known when you were first starting out? Is there any training (anything from blogs to certificate programs) that you found helpful and worthwhile?

    TIA!

  163. Self Inflicted*

    I was offered a position on the lower end of the market range. I countered with an offer I “thought” would be as low as I’m willing to go. They never responded and I haven’t followed up because I figured they did not accept. However, I received my check today which was to include my new raise at current job and a new added deduction. I expected the raise to cancel out a good portion of the deduction but it barely covers any of it. The actual check amount is lower than the other job offer. Do I call and retract my counter or see if they will allow me to accept the initial offer? Or do you think I’ve burned this bridge?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m surprised you didn’t hear anything on the counter offer. How long’s it been? Sometimes it takes a few days, but you generally should hear something in 5-7 working days either yay or nay.
      If it has been longer, then yeah, I’d say that ship has sailed and you should move on. If you went back to accept, they would know (and YOU would know) you felt underpaid. Not worth it, believe me, unless you are in desperate straits or unemployed.

  164. Jillociraptor*

    I’ve had two irritating “younger woman in proximity to leadership” experiences over the last week.

    In one case, a Dude asked for a meeting with me, ostensibly under the guise of asking advise about my professional path, and then spent an hour and a half complaining about a variety of projects (none of which I have anything to with) and leaders (none of whom I work with in any capacity). Every time I tried to insert questions or nuance into the conversation, it was pure condescension for my overwhelming naivete.

    In the other, I called out a Dude for going down the same useless rabbit hole for what feels like the hundredth time in a committee meeting. He snapped back, “Does Jillociraptor run these meetings? Who is in charge here?” To her credit, my delightful boss responded that I did, in fact, run the meeting. But Dude got real surly and since then has made multiple comments about how I need to do more administrative work to help him participate more fully in the committee.

    Amidst the prominence of news about Harvey Weinstein, this has just felt like A LOT. To be clear, I don’t view either of those situations as sexual harassment, AND I’m very glad that Weinstein’s abuse is coming out and he is being held accountable for it. It’s just a lot.

    No advice needed, but if you wanted to commiserate of the sometimes-crappiness of being a lady professional, I’d be down for it.

    2. WanderingAnon*

      I feel you too. I definitely feel the crappiness of being a lady professional sometimes.

      Like the time I had a group meeting with some professionals (men and women, division headed up by a woman. I work in a different division). The big boss suggested I do a breakout session with a new manager of hers, and to go to his office.

      It’s not a uncommon practice here to have closed-door meetings between men and women, so I didn’t think anything of it when he closed the door. But I got a weird vibe off of him, so I pretended to need my laptop and so sat at a table near the door, rather than in the middle of the room, where he’d pulled a chair close to him.

      We talked for about 15-20 minutes, I said I had to get going. I thought he was going to hug me, so I stuck out my hand, removing any chance he’d get closer. He gripped my hand firmly, and as he let it go, he used his thumb to stroke my wrist and hand.

      And this is where people, more often women, get caught. We want to fight back, assert our personal space and right not to be touched inappropriately, but know either no one will believe us or we’ll be punished for making a ‘big deal’ out of nothing. So in my head, I was like ‘What the F*^#!, no one does this to me’, but in real life, all I could do was get the hell out of there.

      I caught my male boss in a rare moment of openness, after the Roger Ailes crap came to light, while he was trying to make sense of it. I said, you know, I’ll tell you how this happens, and I’ll tell you why I’ll never have a one-on-one meeting with so-and-so except by phone. So I told him, and I showed him what the other guy did, and he was disgusted. He said, I’m sorry that happened to you. Yes, I said, but it still happens.

  165. DinosaurJoy*

    I’ve been digging around the archives and can’t seem to find an answer so… what do you do and how do you juggle different hiring timelines? I’ve had a burst of emails for interviews (after a 4.5 month dry spell, not fun) and I’ve started the process with a few different places. But what happens when one company moves so much faster than another? I’m already in the Calling References stage for one place, but pretty firmly in the phone screen stage for the other 3.

    1. miyeritari*

      If you really want to work for the slow one, but the fast one is moving a lot quicker, tell the slow one that. But when the timeline is weeks vs months, that’s harder.

      Since you’re never guaranteed te job, I usually recommend the faster one. And hey, if, eight months later, better job wants to hire you – one jobhob isn’t going to kill you.

      1. DinosaurJoy*

        That’s true. I think I’m especially nervous about it since I’ve been out of work. I don’t want to just jump at the first offer and would really like to weigh my options. But turning down an offer in hopes of a different offer scares me since, like you said, you’re never guaranteed a job!

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. This is totally normal (did you expect the companies to coordinate with each other?) and the only thing it’s useful for is telling you a little something about the companies which could play into decisions about culture fit.

      If you can’t stand slower decision making (which can be glacial in some – but not all – large companies) then you may prefer a company that handles the hiring process more quickly.

      Is there something I’m missing in the question? There’s a lot more discussion about specific situations (for example, how long can you ask to consider an offer if you think you’ll get another in a day or two) so if you have more detail please feel free to add it.

      But generally, this is totally normal and absolutely to be expected.

      1. DinosaurJoy*

        I’m not asking for them to coordinate, mostly trying to think of how to handle receiving an offer more quickly than any of my other interviews. I would like to be able to make an informed decision and not just take the first thing I’m offered unless it’s a good match. I also don’t want to turn something down in hopes of another offer, because that second offer may never come.

        1. Graciosa*

          You generally need to just evaluate the offer independently whenever it is received.

          There are occasional exceptions – when you’re already far enough into the process with Company #2 to know there’s enough of a chance (not certainty) you’d prefer it to Company #1 AND the timing is already close enough to make it worthwhile to message the timing issues to Company #2 – but this isn’t likely when you’re talking about the gap between reference checks and phone screening. Company #2 is probably not already confident enough you’ll be the best choice to accelerate you through the rest of the process.

          So you’re back to just evaluating the offer from Company #1 – is it something you want to take?

          Making one choice almost always forecloses others you may not even know about yet – for example, if you had picked another school/sport/hobby, would you now be married to someone else you’ve never even met? All you can do is make the best decision you can with what you have in front of you.

          Good luck.

  166. Anonymous Childcare Person*

    Is the market better for freelance writers or freelance web designers? How about non freelance writers vs non freelance web designers? I have a natural talent for writing, but it seems most freelance clients and most jobs want a degree for that. I enjoy programming and am learning on my own, but my professional programmer friend keeps warning me I’ll need a degree if I want to be competitive in the job market.

    I’ll be going for my master’s next year and can’t decide which way to go. I love writing and plan to write a book regardless of whether I’ve gone to school for it. I’m not sure making writing my job is a good idea since I might get burnt out on writing and not want to finish my novel. But I think I could be very good/successful at it. Web design seems to be the higher-paying field, and seems to lead to more stable employment than writing. I enjoy programming and designing but I’m not a “natural” at design like I am with writing.

    Currently I’m leaning towards web design, but I was wondering if my assumptions about both professions are accurate.

    1. Daria Grace*

      I’d do a bit more research into whether you do really need a degree. I know people working successfully in both fields without a degree. Some of my programmer friends say degrees can be unhelpful because they don’t always align with what employers are looking for and what you learn in first year is often already outdated by the time you graduate.

      If you find out the degrees weren’t so necessary, perhaps you’d be better off skipping a formal program in one and putting together your own self study program of books, short courses, online classes through Coursera or similar ect in a mix of the two to give you a more rounded skill set. This is something you could likely do with less time and money than a degree program.

    2. Nacho*

      My mom’s a freelance writer, and despite having a lot of experience in her field and plenty of awards, I still make more than she does as a customer service agent in a call center. She makes plenty by the hour, but freelance jobs are hard to get, and she rarely gets in the same 40 hours a week I do. Of course the advantage of that is that she has time to write her books (Her second one will be published in April).

      I don’t know anything about website design though.

    3. Anon anon anon*

      I think there’s about an equal amount of work in both, but web designers tend to make a lot more and have more opportunities for growth.

      Yes, a degree is considered valuable these days, especially if you work in the field while in school. Employers want graduates of well respected computer science programs. I would rule out certificates and lesser known programs unless you think it’s the best way for you to gain the skills they teach; employers won’t care about the degree unless it’s something like a BS or MS in computer science from a school with a pretty good reputation. Or a closely related field.

      Think about what kind of web design you want to do. It’s a broad field made up of a lot of sub fields: UI, UX, information architecture, product design, etc. Look at job postings to get a sense of what’s out there and what you’d like to do. If you want to write and do web design as part of the same job, look at content management as a field as well as web design jobs in marketing departments. There’s a lot of stuff where you write the content and design the look of the site.

      If you want to have plenty of options, learn a programming language or two as well. Then you’ll be considered a full stack developer and will have a lot to choose from job-wise.

      Also, both are fields where people freelance a lot. You can do both. You don’t have to pick one or the other.

    4. Her Grace, the author*

      You don’t need a degree to be a novelist. Don’t need a degree (majoring in writing) for most writing jobs, including freelance non-fiction writing, etc. You get gigs based on the strength of your proposal and your portfolio.

      However, I don’t think novel-writing as a career is for you. It’s one of those careers that you shouldn’t get into unless you can’t not write. Anyhow, the career path of becoming a writer is not the same as many others. You don’t need a degree; some say it’s less that useless. What you need to do is serve and apprenticeship and journeymanhood. This gets you the contacts and the experience you need to succeed. It is the strength of your portfolio that gets you work in the non-fiction field. It is the strength of your voice and style that gets you work in the fiction field.

      You say you love writing but you’ve not written a novel yet? You’re worried you’ll burn out before you’ve completed your *first* novel? Honey, the writing of the novel is the *easy* part. If you can’t hack one novel, how on earth are you going to handle five novels? Or ten? How many novels did you expect to write before they brought in an income?

      November is coming up. Get thee hence to NaNoWriMo and see if you are able to complete a novel before you start throwing your hat in that particular ring.

      Regardless, if you’re going back to school for a career in hopes of making money, go into Web development, hands down.

      I’ve done both these careers. (My degree is not in either of these fields.) I know which one you do for money and which one you do for love.

  167. Daria Grace*

    Any advice on how to deal with managers who deal with stress by becoming patronising micromanagers? Ours has always been a relatively low autonomy job but now that the managers are under pressure from higher ups in the organisation the micromanaging has reached crushing new levels. They’re dictating how many documents we are to print every time we go to the printer. I saw someone get berated so hard they cried for very trivial errors in the detailed records we have to keep about what we do each day. They weren’t a person normally prone to emotional outbursts either. The managers now talk at us like we aren’t trying and don’t care even though a lot of people are meeting or getting quite close to the difficult targets. Everyone is miserable. I’ve never seen so much crying in an office before

  168. Stepford Secretary*

    How do you evolve from a PA to an EA role, and how do you manage the … politics around that?

    Background: I work as a PA for four professionals who rent consulting rooms in the same building. I’m the only employee of theirs; there’s no HR or anything like that.

    One of my employers is very high profile in his field, and is about to take on a senior leadership role in their professional body. He’s also going to continue his practice. This means my workload is going to dramatically increase, and my duties for him will be more in line with an EA than a PA.

    One of my other bosses strongly dislikes Boss 1, and also gets resentful if Boss 1 gives me too much work. Boss 2 is on the record as saying he’d prefer I have nothing to do but read the internet, so I’m always available when he needs me. When he needs me, which is fairly often, he’s not respectful of my time — if he sees I’ve arrived at work early, he’ll immediately give me “urgent” tasks, he sends me on personal errands, routinely assumes that I’ll work through my lunch break for him — and I wouldn’t mind doing these things, but he takes it for granted that I’m always available. In fact, he sulks if other bosses give me too much work.

    Last week, Boss 2 chewed me out for … well, I still don’t fully understand why. He had given me a low priority task, and I had prioritised it too low for his liking — totally a mistake, absolutely on me — but then he went on to complain that I had used a tone of voice he disliked three weeks earlier, and said that he “asked nothing of me, and got nothing back”, and told me that, of my four employers, he was the only one who wanted to hire me, and I need to consider where my loyalties lie.

    I apologised profusely, and I will admit that I’ve probably let my poker face slip lately and seemed less than solicitous of his moods. That was the shock I needed to put me back in Stepford Secretary mode, but I’m concerned about the upcoming change in my duties, and what this means for my working relationship with Boss 2.

    So my questions are this:

    – I’m actually quite inexperienced — I was a secretary for two years, I’ve been a PA for two years, now I’m almost certainly going to have to level up and become an EA. I’d really appreciate it if other EAs can give me an idea of the skills I need to master, and the strategies they use to stay on top of everything.
    – How on earth am I going to deal with Boss 2 and his antipathy to Boss 1 and weird issues around loyalty and what I may or may not owe to him? I know from the recruiter that he was the first to argue to hire me, and he championed a generous payrise earlier this year — but I also know that Bosses 3 and 4, who are chill, conflict-avoidant and no stress whatsoever, didn’t take much persuading.

    (I know that Boss 1 would have preferred a slightly more polished PA — not professionally, my predecessor was a disaster, but she was from a wealthy family, found small talk easy, always had perfect hair — that sort of thing. But Boss 1 is always very courteous to me, and says he’s happy with my work.)

  169. Evie*

    Does anyone have advice on switching jobs after six months? I’m on my first full-time job, but the pay is low for the area, the work is super tedious, and there is no potential for any kind of professional development. I was just contacted on Linkedin by a few recruiters for a contract position at a much higher pay rate. I know that just because recruiters reached out doesn’t mean I’ll get the job, but if I do would it be better stick with my current low-pay job and get some longevity on my resume or jump ship for the significant pay raise?

    1. H.C.*

      There’s no hard and fast rule, but the general advice is you get one free pass for a short stint – so if you do jump ship for one of those headhunted positions you better commit to staying there a while (a year or two, at least) to avoid looking like a job hopper.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      What industry are you in? For some industries, short stints are the norm (though six months is particularly short for a non-contract position). If you’re in an industry that prefers longer stints (several years at each workplace), you can jump ship now, but I would jump only if you’re sure the next job is one you’d be willing to stay at for at least three years. Would you be leaving a steady job for a contract position?

      1. Evie*

        Right now I work for a large tech company via what is essentially a staffing agency, but I am a full time employee of the second company. The job is theoretically steady, but it’s also subject to the whims of the large company I actually do work for. So for example just a couple of months ago the major company suddenly decided to outsource one of our workflows, and the majority of the people on that team got laid off, even though they had all been hired no more than 4 months ago. I think I’m pretty stable and I’m trying to learn as much as I can about our workflow so if another lay-off happens it’ll be easier for me to transfer to another workflow, but it’s really not encouraging. Pretty much everyone leaves if they have a better offer, regardless of how long they’ve been here, because the pay and benefits are really no that great. The position I’m being contacted about is a 12-month contract, which right now honestly feels more stable than what I currently have.

        1. Colette*

          So you’re not a direct employee of the company you do the work for? I assume you’re on some form of short duration contract.

          If you were leaving for a permanent job, it would be an easier story to understand, but I think you’re ok to leave anyway (but yeah, plan to stay to the end of the next contract).

          1. Evie*

            I’m a direct employee of Company A, which has been contracted by Company B to do a certain project. So basically I work for Company A and they then deliver my and my team’s work to Company B. I work at Company B’s office and have access to a lot of Company B’s perks, but my paycheck and benefits come from Company A. It’s not a contract, presumably because Company B can decide at any moment that they don’t actually need the work we do and nix the project, and if we were all on contract Company A would have to keep paying us. This way, they can just lay us off :/

            I think I am going to apply to this job, because the pay is more than double what I’m making now and the work sounds a lot more interesting. The prospect of doing what I’m doing right now for at least six more months is kind of awful. (We had somebody leave today, after being here only 9 months, for another job that pays double. It’s super common and morale is really not great)

  170. miyeritari*

    my boss (male) told me (female) to halt my work conversation because he needed silence, but seemed perfectly content to handle the work conversations of my male coworkers. argh.

  171. Her Grace, the author*

    (Just a whinge, really, as the long slog sometimes gets to me. )

    I want to change careers.

    I want to move from office gumby to author. Problem with this is that being an author takes YEARS of work before income starts coming in. Essentially, I’ve been working two jobs and only getting paid for one… possibly less than one, as there is some minor investment (i.e. marketing, etc) required in authoring.

    My divided commitment means I lack either the time or the money required to grow my new career adequately. If I didn’t need to eat, I’d ditch the day job. (Fret not, gentle reader. Insurance isn’t an issue in my country.)

    Doesn’t help that commercial publishing is glacially slow and indie publishing requires finance to produce quality product.

  172. What to do about inconsistent feedback??*

    I could use some advice, though this post is also partly a frustration-induced rant. (Added note: yes, I realize how ridiculously long it has gotten.)
    Some context: I’m a relatively junior employee at a consulting firm (2 full years of work experience + master’s level research/internship experience.) I’m generally used to being praised for my skills as an analyst and writer, so this frustration can be somewhat ego-related. Also, up until now, it looked like I was going to get a promotion for being one of the stronger performers on my team, but I think it has been derailed.
    Problem: At my firm, my team (let’s say, “Chocolate Making”) has 2 managers whom I directly report to, but our individual projects have their own specific supervisors. This arrangement causes some problems, because these supervisors are not necessarily specialized in Chocolate Making themselves, but come from more public relations type backgrounds. They are the ones who sell our work/products. However, they are also in charge of officially evaluating our projects (they calculate into our performance reviews), and sometimes give feedback that is 1.) Uninformed about the technicalities of Chocolate Making, and 2.) Inconsistent with other people’s feedback, including our managers.
    This has been the case with two of my projects. For the worse of the two, I put my full-effort into producing a well thought out, good product, or so I thought. The supervisor sent me an email, cc’ing my managers, saying that the product was NOT well thought out and poorly planned. I was kind of stung. I consider myself someone who is generally responsive to feedback. I’m still pretty new to this job so I’ve been consistently learning and growing, but I have never gotten such a bad reaction to my work. What’s worse, is that this supervisor didn’t really explain WHY he thought my work was so poor. He just attached the work of another employee (a more senior team member) to the email and told me to base my future work off of his. I found this really insulting, though it could be my ego talking. There is a creative component to our work, and I felt like the supervisor was just favoring a more senior employee’s style over mine.
    And it gets weirder. I got a reply from one of my managers saying that she doesn’t understand why the supervisor didn’t like my original product, because it was fine the way it was. This is not a bad thing, but now I don’t know what to do or who do listen to. Has anyone dealt with this type of situation before?? (For the record, I will be meeting with my managers and supervisor in the upcoming week for further communication.)

    1. Graciosa*

      The best thing you can do is set your ego aside. This is true regardless of the quality of the product or the amount of effort involved in producing it.

      For the record, I have been in similar situations. At one point, I had a “client” who hated me and literally refused to speak with me. Your issue here is relatively minor if handled properly.

      No matter how unreasonable the client is, you should always go into the situation obviously open to feedback and wanting to understand how to get a better result. Anything and everything should be fair game, from the intake process (was enough information gathered to let you know what you needed to do to make the client happy?) to creation of the work (should there have been an early check of the concept with the client?) to the final product (did it need a quality check, or should you have presented it differently – perhaps going over it during a meeting to confirm buy-in before emailing to the client?).

      Whether you’re speaking to the client or your superiors, you should always be clearly looking for what you could do to make this better.

      There are a couple of reasons for taking this approach:

      1. It makes you look like a confident professional who wants to produce great work (and would have done so this time if X had been properly handled and will do so in the future now that X issue has been discovered);
      2. It makes it safe for people to give you feedback (and you need ALL levels and types of people to give you feedback for the rest of your career if you want to get better – or get promoted); and
      3. When the issues are actually the result of someone else’s idiosyncrasy, it becomes very obvious very quickly without your having to burn any bridges or damage your relationship with the internal client; handled well, it can convert an internal client into a supporter because gosh, now that you understand he wants all his powerpoint slides done on a purple background with 5 main topic sentences in lime green, each with 4 subheadings in electric orange, you’ll make sure that happens for him every time from now on!

      Treating your client like a valued customer whose needs and wants you’re eager to fulfill helps YOU. Treating your supervisor and manager like partners who want to help you achieve the best possible performance and best possible results helps YOU.

      Defending your work to someone who just doesn’t like it is a waste of time. What matters in service (with few exceptions) is whether or not the customer is happy. Showing you understand this marks you as a mature professional – which also helps YOU.

      Good luck –

  173. nep*

    A question regarding LinkedIn — I’ve looked at articles and in settings but can’t find anything on this. Does it show in my connections’ feed when I’ve commented on something? (I’m thinking perhaps this is in the hands of the other person — that is, a member controls what’s in his/her feed, and not about something I do on my end?) Sometimes I like to comment on posts, but let’s say there’s an exchange of a few comments — I wouldn’t want each instance to come up in people’s feeds.

    1. buttercup*

      It does, but there might be settings changes you can do to prevent that. (LinkedIn keeps changing their format, but explore Privacy Settings or Account Settings)

      1. nep*

        Thanks. Yes — I do hear / see that LinkedIn often changes things.
        I don’t see a single thing in settings that lets me control what of my activity shows up for connections. Until I know how to manage that, I’ll refrain from commenting.

  174. nep*

    An organization I don’t know much about is advertising a consultant gig that in many ways would be great for me. The conditions of the job and the skills they are seeking fit me perfectly. The issue is it’s a new-ish organization and I don’t know its work. I’ve asked a couple of colleagues who I thought might know; they are not familiar either. It’s really tough to get a good feel from the organization’s website; I mean it all sounds great but of course, consider the source.
    I would much rather pick the organization I work for based on my passion for what it does — but that’s in an ideal world; to date I’ve not had any luck with those.
    I’ll probably apply and just keep researching this entity. I would like to have at least a couple things that convince me I share this organization’s values. What would you do to find out more? Suggestions, thoughts? Am I ridiculous to even think of applying in these circumstances?

    1. nep*

      (What am I thinking? Of course I apply. Can’t really afford right now not to go for everything that remotely matches my skills. I’ll continue to research — want to at least know the org doesn’t stand for something I’m completely against.)

  175. What?*

    Quick update on my situation:

    I talked with HR three times, the first with just HR, the second time with HR and my boss, and then again with HR privately (they excluded my boss). The second time, when I met with my boss and HR, they told me that my boss had been meeting with HR for several months about concerns. I reiterated that I’ve been there for two years and never had a performance review or even a formal evaluation, so I’m not sure why this was addressed with them and not with me (it’s certainly not how I would manage my reports, but I wouldn’t say that to HR or my manager). They said that I have all the soft skills and the technical knowledge to do my job, so those aspects are good, but my manager wants to make this into a full time reporting type role, which is something I’m not interested in and would not have applied for if I had known that. I’m being given time to transition out, although I really don’t want to leave and have said so. I’ve also said that I’m going to do the best job I possibly can, asked for 1-on-1 meetings with my boss to keep track of my progress, and that I would try to be as polite and ‘on-point’ as I possibly can be in the meantime. I suspect that my boss is far more interested in getting rid of me than they would be in making it work, but I can’t help that. The last time, I met with HR alone, reiterated that I wanted to stay, but I would take the option they gave me (in the second meeting) of staying in my role for a few more months and bowing out gracefully instead of an aggressive PIP, which they presented during the meeting with both parties. They also apologized for the way things were handled with the recruiter, although I could care less about that.

    I’m applying for new positions, and my spouse suggested that I include volunteer experience on my resume, since I’m looking to transition out of a sub-specialty and into more general IT field. All of my volunteer experience is good, but is in local religious organizations. Right now, I do not have any formal IT certifications. Is that something that I should include anyway, or does mentioning that it’s IT at a religious org diminish the value of that experience? Also, is it preferable to note the volunteer experience with or without disclosing the organization’s name?

    1. Sam Foster*

      I’d only include the volunteer experience if it is specifically relevant to the jobs you are applying to. The exception would be if you are trying to show leadership aptitude one could include leadership roles in volunteer organizations.

      I’d be interested in knowing what others say about listing organizations that might trigger concerns around protected classes (race, creed, color, religion, etc.). Is listing religious organizations going to be a red flag?

      1. What?*

        FWIW, I have plenty of friends and work colleagues that are in protected classes that I can use as references. But I’m concerned what a hiring manager might think on the initial review of my resume…after all, if I’m not getting past the first resume review, I’m never getting a second interview. Or a first one, for that matter.

        1. Sam Foster*

          I didn’t articulate my point about protected classes well, let me try again: If you list religious organizations on an application are you creating a bias against you, conscious or subconscious? I know information like that isn’t supposed to influence hiring decisions but I’m relating it to the idea of being unable to ask questions about faith or health or whatever during an interview. By putting it out there, are you disadvantaging yourself, the recruiter or hiring manager? It’s probably not legal but does it create an “oh boy, look at all this religious stuff, how do we even talk to this candidate?” scenario? Like the “rumors” one hears about people dismissing candidates who have a diploma mill school on their resumes.

          1. What?*

            I didn’t articulate my point about protected classes well, let me try again: If you list religious organizations on an application are you creating a bias against you, conscious or subconscious?

            My experience is that it depends on the interviewer, but yes, I’d like go avoid creating bias against me on the basis of religious beliefs. I’m fairly sure that it’s been used against me in the past, but I can’t prove it.
            For right now I will list the experience as ‘local organization’ and leave it at that unless they ask.

  176. Lady Of Shining Waters*

    Hi Alison and fellow commenters. I am a long time follower of your blog, but a silent follower, as I have never left a comment.
    I have just seen this on “the cut” and it seems like they took your post without credit.
    The “ask a boss” thing also rubs me up the wrong way, as if they couldn’t think of anything more clever, so they had to do a parody of your name to make it seem like they are original. I know they credit you right at the top, but there is no mention of you or your website anywhere else… Just thought you might like to know…As I would hate to see all of your hard work stolen and reused… here is the link: https://www.thecut.com/2017/09/ask-a-boss-how-do-i-get-people-to-talk-in-meetings.html

      2. Lady Of Shining Waters*

        Oh good to know. I did consider that, when I saw how many articles there were. I did not think you would be so quick to see it and respond either. Alls well that ends well. :)

  177. Dance fever*

    I’m very late, but also very sad. For years, I’ve done very well at my job. Promotions, awards, (small) raises. My immediate boss loves me. I love my job, my clients, my colleagues.

    And now a brand new grand boss, who has never met me and never will, has hired a consultant to go through our huge organization and identify cost cutting measures. And I just learned my job has been identified.

    Supposedly the consultant’s report is just “one piece” of the decision process for what gets cut. I don’t know the true odds of me losing my job. But I hate that I’m living out the “Don’t love your job when it can’t love you back” morality play. I’ve done everything right and some bean counter puts me on a list, just because they’re being paid to make a list.

    So sad. Internet hugs welcome.

    1. buttercup*

      A hug from me! Please don’t forget that you are both a valuable professional and human, and the structural changes aren’t your fault. I’m sure several other companies would be thrilled to have you. Also, wtf, why would anyone purposefully try to lay off employees? seriously

  178. Workaholic*

    Oooh! That collapse all option made this so much easier to navigate!

    Four of us got on the elevator at work this morning and one woman said “it’s not Friday yet.” The rest of us just kinda froze, with a mild feeling of panic and confusion rising up. Then she finished her comment “I’m coming in for voluntary OT tomorrow”.

    This has been a long week – it’s not nice to scare people haha.

    Happy Friday everyone! (Though I’m working a few hours Saturday too)

  179. Jemima Bond*

    Hello, I am newish to commenting (I often read on my lunch break at work and can’t comment) and I wondered if someone would be kind enough to do me a translation/explanation of a few terms from US to UK-speak so I can better understand fellow AAM fans in that there US of A? I’m a UK civil servant, for context.

    Firstly – a nonprofit: I assumed that this meant a charity but it seems like loads of commenters work for non profits; more than I’d expect to work for charities. Or does the term also include public sector work etc which is also not for profit, in a way.

    C-suite?

    K-cup?

    PTO – what precisely does this refer to? I get annual leave (vacation); a certain number of days a year. I can take this as a chunk for a holiday or as an odd day if I want to do something in particular. If I’m ill I’m ill; I’m not told how many times I can be ill (over 5 days in a row requires a doctor’s note though). Then there are a few bank holidays (public holidays) and in extenuating circumstances like a family bereavement I could be signed off for a day’s “special leave” but this may not be widespread in the private sector. Which of these sorts of things does PTO refer to? What is a personal day?

    1. Colette*

      I’m not American but will give it a try.

      Non-profit is an organization that does not exist to make a profit. This could be an organization that funds cancer research, or one that provides emergency housing, or a church, or another organization run primarily by volunteers (Scouts, for example).

      C-suite – high level executives (CEO, CFO, CIO)

      K-cup – single use pod for making coffee ?

      PTO – paid time off. Can include vacation, sick leave, etc. There is no minimum required in the US, and some companies combine sick time and vacation into one pool; others separate them.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Yes, K-cups are Keurig cups (the plastic non-recyclable version of nespresso, way more popular in the US)

        Yea, PTO is a whole animal of it’s own when comparing the US and other countries. My parents work in the US and I work in the EU, and starting off already I have better PTO options than they have (equivalent vacation days off to my father who has 20 years experience). They both have a pool of sick days (pitifully little compared to Europe, like 3 or 5 a year), and once they run out they can take vacation days (as my mother is a teacher they are called “personal days”, and she gets 2 I think per year). As Collete says though, pretty much every company does is slightly differently.

    2. ExasperatedHiring*

      Another example of a nonprofit is a trade or professional association–so they really do run the gammut. PTO (paid time off) when used by an American org usually includes your sick, personal, and vacation days all rolled into one. The idea being that it discourages unwarranted use of sick days, though I have serious issues with that because 1) you can’t predict being sick, so it makes planning vacations SO hard; 2) it results in people coming into the office with nasty contagious bad colds and spreading it to everyone else. It usually doesn’t include, though, the equivalent of your bank holidays. Usually employees with PTO will also get a somewhat standard 10 company holidays that include things like Thanksgiving Day and Labor Day (all orgs are different, though, so I’m speaking in generalities).

    3. Mephyle*

      Another quirky difference: ‘sick’ in North American English means ‘ill’. So terms like ‘sick leave’ and ‘sick time’ refer to any illness.

    4. Student*

      A personal day is a colloquialism for taking a day off of work. It’s vague on purpose. The vagueness is to keep people from scolding you for taking a day off for something they may consider frivolous, or may lead to criticism of one’s work ethic, or is private information one doesn’t wish to share. It’s a minor social flag that additional questions are not welcome on why one is taking the day off.

      It might refer to taking a day off just because you wanted a break from work, a “mental health day”, a day to run errands you can’t do after work, a day off to care for a relative, a day off due to minor personal illness or injury, or a day to do something fun.

  180. AeroEngineer*

    I am a bit late on this one, mainly since I was discussing it with people yesterday.

    So, I got a job (yay!), but it isn’t what I want to do (though I am qualified enough to start out, and the skills I would learn would be valuable), but I needed something to give me an income after finishing studying, and I had so many rejections (and bad graduation timing) that I had no other option.

    The field I want to go into is very (very very) small, at the recent international conference at there was about 300 people, ranging from the people you see on TV all the time to the people behind the scenes working at the individual companies, and everyone knows everyone.

    So my plan is to give this job my all, learn as much as I can as this field would be very useful to me in the future, but also take some courses outside of work in the field I want to enter and still apply for positions if any happen to come up.

    My question is this: As I have no idea when/if I would even be able to get a new position, if I happen to get one, I am in no place to turn it down as it would be a foot in the door. Since I don’t plan on returning to the field that I currently work in, how bad would it look if I left in just a few months? I know personally I would feel like an ass a little if I left somewhere between the 6 month and 1 year time, but I guess I would have to get over it. (I am in the EU currently)

  181. ExasperatedHiring*

    Hi all, hopefully I’m not too late into this thread to get some advice on the ethics of job candidates reneging *after* accepting an offer and signing an offer letter (which yes, I recognize is in no way legally binding).

    I started at a new job 3 months ago as a head of a small satellite office (10 people) of a larger org (of about 150). My predecessor had retired, and a key position under her had retired as well at the same time, so filling that role was one of my first priorities.

    I interviewed a number of candidates, really liked two who I brought in for second interviews with both me and to meet some of the other team members. One was solidly a frontrunner, so we made her an offer. She negotiated on a few items (not even salary, just ancillary benefits and start date) in what seemed a mildly nitpicky way, but nothing that was a big deal. She agreed to terms, sent us back her signed offer letter, and I emailed her to ask her to let me know once she’d given notice and I could publicize her hiring with my leadership. It took a few days, and then suddenly my HR person let me know she’d called them and backed out, saying she got a counteroffer and more responsibilities from her current employer. So, really annoying, and I was less than impressed she did this all *after* sending us a signed offer letter, but such is life. Tried to offer it to the #2 in the running, but by then that candidate clearly had better opportunities she’d come across, and she declined (quite professionally and appropriately).

    Restarted the whole process, it was now early September, and we got a bunch of really great candidates–much better than the previous crop now that it wasn’t August it seemed. Brought it down to two again, they met with rest of team, and we all agreed one stood out. Made him an offer, he negotiated on a few non-salary things and tried for a different title we just couldn’t accommodate, but we upped the signing bonus instead a bit. Obviously by then I was once bitten, twice shy, so I waited until he said he’d given notice, we had a signed offer letter and he said I could share the news at least internally. He was completely different in approach on all this, asking already for some materials to read so he could get a jumpstart on transitioning, proactively reached out to me when he hadn’t gotten a copy of the offer letter yet even though he’d verbally accepted, just seemed really excited to start. I was SO relieved and looking forward to his start in 2 weeks since I’ve been swamped covering that role from Day 1. So when it was clear that he was totally on board and he said I could share the news, I reached out to the other candidate via email and let her know she was a great candidate, enjoyed meeting her, but we’d gone a different direction. Not two hours later, the guy who accepted called me to tell me…his current employer had given him a counteroffer, changed his title, ave him more responsibilities, etc. I. couldn’t. believe. it. Everyone I spoke with in my peer group was appalled when I mentioned what that first candidate had done backing out, but now it’s happened again. So I’m wondering if I’m overreacting by thinking this seriously has been SO unprofessional on their parts?? Is this more normal than I’d realized and I’m taking it too personally? I mean I know people take counteroffers all the time, but in my experience (leaving aside Alison’s advice that it’s generally not a good idea to take one) you’re supposed to do that BEFORE you sign the offer letter!

    My other question is does anyone have a good script for how I can call the other candidate this last guy was up against to see if she’d still be interested even though I emailed her yesterday to say it was filled?

    1. Colette*

      That doesn’t sound like the norm, and it’s pretty annoying. I think you just call your second choice, tell them the position is open again, and ask if they’re interested.

    2. moss*

      I think you’re taking it too personally. I have backed out of an offer twice!!! I work in an industry where my talents are in extremely high demand. I am recruited constantly. So a few years back another company in my industry recruited me and I went through the interview process and accepted their job offer. However, when I gave notice my company bumped up my title and gave me a $20,000 raise. I was surprised and concerned that I had already accepted the offer at the new company but my HR told me that this is very very common and it would not be a problem to back out. The next year, same thing again, only this time after backing out of the second new company’s offer I ended up not liking the team I was promoted to and so I got ahold of the second new company’s recruiter and said I’d like to work for them after all. They were happy to hire me even though I’d already backed out on them! That was a year ago and I am still at second new company and STILL being constantly recruited (although I really love my current company so I have no plans to go anywhere.)

      I understand in the real world we give our word and stick by it but just as employers often don’t stick to their word or do the morally correct thing by way of their employees, sometimes employees’ business needs change as well.

      And again, let me reiterate: my company’s HR told me that this is VERY COMMON and nothing for me to worry about. It may be your candidates’ HR is telling them the same thing. Especially if they are in a very high-demand field.

      As for your script, you call the second candidate and ask if she is still available.

      tl;dr: It’s just business, it’s not commonly understood to be unprofessional (at least in my industry). And I know your situation sucks but try not to take it personally.

  182. SurpriseScarf*

    Excel question: how do you compare two lists of names and only find duplicates from the one list to the other list? Can’t use highlight duplicates cuz there will be duplicates in List 1.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      1. Highlight all the names on one sheet and then rename the range and hit Enter.
      2. At the top of the column next to the names on the other sheet, put in this formula:
      =vlookup(a2,rangeyourenamed,1,false)
      3. Copy that formula down the whole column

  184. Lisa Rodham Simpson*

    Hi everyone, I am hoping to get some advice on how to perform well during interviews while going through bereavement. I lost one of my best friends a few weeks ago, and I am so overwhelmed with grief. I know that I’ll feel better little by little, but I can’t afford to take any time off of my job search.

    I had a phone interview last week, and I started the call bright but I think that once I got more comfortable on the call I forgot to sufficiently cloak my gloom and likely sounded flat. I think I inadvertently channeled Sartre when she asked about my 5-year plan–that’s not a question I specifically prepare for because when I’m not so sad I’m generally optimistic about my future and excited to talk about how the position fits within my trajectory. But that’s an easy fix–I’m not myself right now, I so I have to prepare for questions that I normally feel more comfortable winging. That’s no problem. But I don’t know what to do about my overall blunted affect, and how to seem more cheerful without coming off as insincere.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m very sorry about your friend, my condolences on your loss. For phone interviews, having some notes with talking points might help you keep on task. But my main recommendation would be to address it to the interviewer(s) sometime early in the interview. Something like “I apologize if I sound subdued today, a good friend passed away recently”. You’re not bringing it up in depth or repeatedly during the interview, but giving them a heads up in the beginning before the conversation starts might cause them to view your demeanor with this in mind.

  185. anon in space*

    I’m in my early 30s and single. I don’t want to be alone forever, but I also don’t want to be with someone just for the sake of being with someone. My family and friends have tried setting me up with guys, but nothing has worked out. I’ve been on dates with guys, but nothing really lasts. It takes me a while to get comfortable around people. I don’t make the best first impression because I get nervous.

    I’ve been questioning my preferences- I feel more comfortable around women- my friends are all female. I get nervous around men, but I like getting hugs from men and had a crush on a guy that I worked with.

    I also like being alone- doing my own thing on my own terms. I’m introverted, but feel lonely sometimes.
    I just feel a bit lost at times.

    Can anyone relate?

  186. Anon anon anon*

    A number of questions this week.

    1) Writing gigs. All kinds of writing gigs. Where are some good places to find them?

    2) Skills based hiring! I’m excited about it. For the unitiated – some companies are moving towards looking at applicant’s skills via testing, portfolios, or essay questions before they look at the resume, and placing more emphasis on the former. It’s not all that different from traditional hiring. Just shifting the focus from, “Where have you been?” to “What can you do?” I think that if we start to see a mix of different hiring practices between companies, it will mean more opportunities for more people. Your thoughts?

    1. Her Grace*

      What kind of writing gigs were you thinking? Freelance articles for major magazines? Technical writing contracts?

      For freelance stuff you hunt down writer’s guidelines, read a few issues of the publication to get a good idea of what they’re looking for, then you pitch them an article idea.

  187. J.R.*

    I have been repeatedly told that experience I gained in self-employment “does not count” in the “real” working world. I’m wondering is this actually true and if so why is that the case?
    Many family members completely dismiss my self-employment experience and act as though my last job working for someone else was in fact my “last actual job.”

  188. Hey Nonnie*

    Red flag or no?

    Recently applied for a job with the posting’s requested cover letter and resume. Got an email response requesting I fill out an application form (sigh), and send samples of code “that I had written myself, from scratch.” So I email back with their application form, and links to two specific samples on my portfolio website, describing what coding tools I had used and what the code did.

    His response: is this code you have written yourself, from scratch?

    The only way I can think to interpret this is either he assumes I don’t follow directions, or that I plagiarized, even though I gave him no reason to think either. I had already sent the link to my portfolio in my cover letter, and had reiterated in my response that the samples were from my portfolio, so I don’t know why he would assume that I would have someone else’s work on MY portfolio site, or that I would respond with samples that didn’t meet the criteria he’d asked for.

    For what it’s worth, I have no idea who this guy is within the organization. He could be the entry-level drone that sorts applications, or he could be the hiring manager. He only gave his name, not his title. (He also asked for samples of “complex” code, which contradicts best practices for the industry, which I have refrained from pointing out since I expect that’s better brought up in an actual conversation/interview.)

  189. bopper*

    I just had my 30th Service Anniversary..there was luggage, Kitchenaid Mixers, jewelry…but I had all stuff…so I waited…and then they added Ipads!

  190. JN*

    I’ve been job hunting for 14 months, off and on. I haven’t had any problems with my job, workplace, boss, coworkers, job duties, etc, just the fact that my salary isn’t high enough to meet my needs and there’s also been some uncertainty about my employer’s longterm financial stability (though things seem to have improved lately for them to give us (tiny) raises and promise retirement contributions to resume next calendar year. So I was looking for something new. No results the first 6 months, until I started a protracted interview process (far away, maybe too big a step up, no job offer), then quickly had another interview (close by, similar to my last workplace in a different aspect of my field, no job offer), and then another interview last month (close by, similar workplace to my current one, verbal job offer on Friday. Need to get benefits info today and talk to the hiring person today as well. Assuming similar benefits (I already know PTO is a bit less at this new place), and that the salary is higher than my current, why I am nervous today? I do tend to get comfortable in places where I’m at, and past job searches were always because I had to find something new (end of contract, cut in hours, etc). This has been my first job hunt to advance myself. I’ve also got a bit of a tendency to feel guilty for things even when I shouldn’t–though since I’d be leaving some projects hanging until a new person got hired, there’s a bit of a reason for guilt now. I don’t think my boss will be too surprised when I tell him tomorrow (he’s out of the office today), but I still feel nervous about making the change even though I don’t have any tangible reason to. I’ll get to stay near family and friends (though I’m sure I’ll move closer to the new job), the people I interviewed with all seemed nice enough for the time I spent with them, workspace seemed fine… Is this just me worrying when I don’t really need to?

  191. De Minimis*

    Probably in way too late, but wanted to say that tomorrow I find out if I’m being laid off…

    Weird feeling for me. I’ve always just been fired before.

  192. J.R.*

    Not sure if it’s me but it seems like finding a job is a lot easier when you already have one. If you are “employed but exploring options” you are in a better situation than someone who is unemployed and desperately looking for work.

  193. De Minimis*

    So, not being laid off, at least not for a long while. The bigger issue is my salary will be greatly reduced over the course of the next fiscal year, but it’s not for a while so that gives me time to find something else. The salary reduction was way more than the amount I told my supervisor I’d be willing to tolerate. I think my supervisor knows it’s not going to work for me and is okay with me finding something else, he just asks I give him as much notice as possible.

    Due to my job, I’ve been given all the information on who exactly is being laid off/salary reduced and when. It bothers me because while some upper level people are having their salary reduced, others are not having their salary reduced at all while their supervisees are being laid off or having their salary cut almost in half. And with one exception, the lower level people are undergoing more drastic salary cuts than anyone at the upper level.

    Anyway, I’m looking, hope to find something over the next several months before my salary is reduced. Once they start cutting people my job is really going to get rough since I’ll probably be expected to take on at least some of the tasks.

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