open thread – October 20-21, 2017

by Alison Green on October 20, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Boo*

    My organisation is making staffing cuts of more than 33%. People are aware they are at risk, and details re posts will be confirmed before Christmas with redundancies being effective as of March 31 2018. My question is, what the hell do we do about the staff Christmas party? Have one? Not have one? I’m wondering whether to suggest to management that they take the Christmas party budget and divide it up between staff…it probably wouldn’t be much (£25 each, something like that) but better than nothing…what do you all think?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yes I agree. I think that extra money would be more appreciated than a party – and yes, perhaps an extra day off (or the extra hours off that would be devoted to Xmas party) might also be appreciated more.

        1. Boo*

          Oo, this is an excellent idea, thanks both – the party normally starts mid afternoon in one of the meeting rooms (voluntary sector so we never normally book anywhere external) so giving people the afternoon off would be great!

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      Yeah I would skip it. It will come across as incredibly callous. Think of the optics:

      “Hey everyone, Merry Christmas! We thought it was more important to throw a party where you’ll be demoralized while trying to job search on the side, instead of trying to save as much of the staffing levels as we can.”

      I’d argue to your management that this is a major optics issue, and suggest that they try to cancel and give a small bonus or something instead. People will appreciate the cash.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I agree that they should skip it, but I do want to push back on the idea that the Christmas party gets in the way of “saving as much of the staffing levels as we can.” Boo says the cost of the party is 25 pounds per person… that’s not saving anyone’s job.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          You’re right, but it’s an optics issue, not an accounting problem. People will grumble that they’re cutting positions to throw a party, regardless of the accounting reality.

        2. Anxa*

          But $25 could save a lot for the employees. That $25 isn’t going to do much to boost morale at a party at this point, but other more direct employee appreciation efforts (cash, supplies to do job, an early dismissal time) could be better.

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, callous is a good word. Old Job continues to lay people off (despite assurances that “this is the last round”) and wages were frozen; no raises for any reason this year. And yet the company had a party for upper management on a yacht with a band, dinner and drinks. For “bonding”. You can pretty much imagine how people are feeling about that.

    5. 2 Cents*

      Divide the money between the staff. At the very least, NO PARTY. I was at a company that did layoffs, and when they held the holiday party, it was like, “Are you not aware you just let half of my department go?”

      1. DDJ*

        Yeah, it can be really rough. Before our Christmas party last year was formally announced, a memo was sent out stating that the party had already been fully paid for (as the space required confirmations a full year in advance), which was why they were still having it.

        I thought it was smart that they answered the question so many people would have been asking: how can they justify a big party when a quarter of the staff has been let go in the last year?

        I don’t anticipate that there’s going to be any kind of party this year, since we’re going through round 2 of major cuts.

        1. Lindsay J*

          Yeah, if the place I was at had big staffing cuts and then a party at minimum I would want an email with an acknowledgement that the optics were terrible and an explanation as to why it was still happening, and an acknowledgement that they understood that most people would not be feeling holiday cheer and would instead be upset that they were losing their job or worried that they might be next on the chopping block.

          If those two things were shown to have been considered by management I would be okay with it happening. And especially if they made an effort to tone it down a bit from years past. If people like their jobs and their colleagues they might want the chance to socialize a bit, network, etc. Especially if the choices are “Prepaid deposits or budgeted party funds go to waste completely” vs “We do something for the employees.”

          If using the funds for cash or other bonuses and giving time off are possible then it definitely seems like the better choice though.

    6. k.k*

      I like the idea of dividing up the money for staff. It would be really demoralizing to see that my company was blowing cash on a party while saying they couldn’t afford to keep us. If there is some type of rule that the budgeted amount needs to be spent on actual items for the party or some other reason you can’t straight give them cash, they might be able to get around it by purchasing gift cards for everyone (something versatile like Visa gift cards).

      1. Boo*

        Thanks! Yes I was thinking maybe Amazon gift vouchers or something (we’re a charity so not sure what the rules would be around gifting the budget to staff, but if we can I think this would be nice).

      1. Boo*

        It’s ok, it hasn’t been booked yet! I was just wondering what alternatives I could suggest to management when it can’t be avoided any longer.

    8. De Minimis*

      We’re going through the same thing, we’re still having our regular plans.

      What helps in our case is that we’ve already told everyone what’s happening to them, several months [sometimes more] in advance. I think it would be hard to have a celebration if you still had a lot of uncertainty about the future.

      Also, the cost for our parties is fairly minimal since we’re a small organization. I think in our case morale would suffer even further were we to cancel it.

      1. Mirth & Merry*

        Ditto, like De Minimus said it’s a little different than your situation because our people are already gone, not living with the unknown. But we just did about 20% layoff (and about 30% last year) and morale is so low the Christmas party goes a long way to make the company (at least appear to) suck less.

    9. commonsense*

      A few years back they announced they were closing my entire site of about 150 people and slowly but surely laid off 95% of the staff. They remaining 5% were relocated. We not only had one holiday party but two. We also invited all the laid off employees. Now that was a party!

      2. Chaordic One*

        It seems more fair, that if you are going to have a party, you invite and include the people who were laid-off. I’m not sure if the laid-off employees would enjoy it, but I like the idea of inviting them just the same.

    10. Blue*

      I’d actually fall on the side of doing SOMETHING, but not a party. Maybe buy lunch for everyone in the office, every Friday in December. I mean, cash is always great, but I’d think that a low-key bonding event would be nice.

      1. Boo*

        Thanks! This is a really nice alternative to a party/if we can’t just share out the money we would otherwise have spent. Everyone in this office loves free food!

        1. Specialk9*

          I’d lean towards asking management to potluck in food. That way the employees get free food – unlike an actual potluck in which they all bring in food – and it’s clear you really are cutting costs, not being extravagant, but that you want to honor the employees for all they do.

          1. H.C.*

            Oh, my OldJob at a nonprofit did this when they had a bad year in fundraising (it was just after Great Recession); of course, a few grumbled that we didn’t get to have a catered, out of office party, but most of us appreciated management’s efforts for this (some of whom came in around 5 a.m. to get the breakfast prep started) and, of course, batting for our jobs and pay.

      2. H.C.*

        I’m also on the side of doing something, too; as mentioned earlier, the cost savings isn’t going to save a job – and it provides an opportunity for colleagues to say goodbye to one another (esp for those who collaborate regularly but don’t see one another day-to-day)

      3. Marmite*

        My office has gone for the low-key approach this year since the organisation just cut over 1/3 of staff. Usually there is a party held at an external venue. This year there’s festive food and (non-alcoholic) drinks in the office on two occasions (beginning of December and the day before the office closes for Xmas/New Year) with a ‘quiz of the year’ at one and a ‘Great British Bake Off’ treat tasting extravaganza for the other (we have an office bake club!).

      4. Anon Accountant*

        I think this would be nice. A lunch on a Friday afternoon and the rest of the afternoon off would be an alternative.

      1. Emily S.*

        Seconded. People at my company get VERY excited about gift cards, even just $25 for Amazon (which are sent to people who perform especially well on a specific job).

      2. Bagpuss*

        If this is in the UK, gift cards (or cash) would both be taxable, which makes it more complicated

    12. Jule*

      This happened at my previous place of employment. There was a subdued late afternoon party in a large conference room (so people did still take lunch beforehand if they wanted their personal hour, though there was still plenty of food at the event–though not so much that it would make anyone think “if ONLY you didn’t DO things like this BRENDA would still have her JOB”) and it was a good opportunity for the CEO to give a speech about the loss and about moving forward. It was handled really well on the whole.

    14. Jillociraptor*

      We have had this exact debate over and over. With layoffs generally, people have many different emotional reactions to the experience, so just keep in mind that no matter what you do, given the heightened emotional state, someone will be upset about it. There’s lots you can do to be sensitive and mitigate unnecessary bad feelings but you can’t make everyone happy.

      We have had some staff who feel that it’s very insensitive that the organization is throwing money at a party when they or their friends are losing their jobs. And we have had some staff who feel it’s really insensitive to eliminate all of the fun, communal things and traditions when they’re already under stress. What’s important is to be clear and direct about what’s happening. Maybe there’s the possibility of offering an option, knowing that some people will want the community experience and some might just want the money.

      It might also be good for management to just be real about the situation and ask what people think. They could tell the staff that they realize that the staffing cuts are really challenging, and they’re wondering how people are reacting to the Christmas party. They’ll probably hear varying perspectives, but it can be good for people to just see and hear that their leadership is taking their thoughts into consideration.

      1. Jake*

        This should win comment of the day.

        You can’t please everybody, and honestly, if I knew major layoffs were coming, and my morale was already low, I’d probably be upset that the Christmas party was still happening, and I’d probably be upset if it was cancelled. Low morale has a way of making everybody look at the negative side of things, so I think it is important to note that you should expect some negativity around this regardless of how you handle it.

      2. Blossom*

        +1. I’m actually really surprised at how strongly anti-party the sentiment has been in this thread. I must be weird (in fact, I know that I’m usually the most unruffled person in the office about stuff like this – but I certainly have other sensitive spots that aren’t shared by everyone, so I know I’m not an emotionless robot!).

        So for my weird self, for whatever it’s worth, I would be surprised and disappointed to see the party cancelled. It would feel like adding more negativity to a challenging time, and depriving employees of a treat. Personally I might even feel patronised if I was told it was being cancelled to spare my feelings – and a gift of £25 would not exactly help. (I appreciate this sum of money will mean more to those on more limited budgets, but on my middling-to-comfortable budget, and almost framed (if only by timing) as something between a Christmas bonus and redundancy compensation, it looks pretty derisory.)

        I do think (and this is my general opinion on office parties, but particularly in this case) that it should be an informal, non-mandatory event. I agree with the poster who said it should focus on making employees feel appreciated for the work they’ve done.

    15. ToledoShark*

      Could it be morphed into a ‘thanks for working so hard this year’ party or similar rather than a ‘yay Christmas’ affair? I think to blanket withdraw it would be a bit callous too, as they’re already having a cr*ppy time and now you’re taking the office party away too (remember: optics). Ideally if you can ask for their input on how to proceed that would be best.

    16. Thlayli*

      Any time I’ve worked somewhere there’s been layoffs around Christmas, the party has been cancelled. It’s generally seen as bad form to spend company money on a party when they could be spending it on postponing people’s departure. (And yes obviously £25 a head in a small department wouldn’t go far in postponing anyone’s departure, but it’s more about optics than anything else).
      You could let people know that they are allowed to organise their own voluntary party, so long as no one is pressured to attend or donate.

    17. Amy*

      £25 may not be a huge amount of money, but it’s enough that people will appreciate it. I think giving them the cash as an end-of-year gift would be a more welcome gesture than a party, under the circumstances; no one wants to party when a bunch of their colleagues have just been laid off.

    18. Anonymous Panda*

      I wouldn’t give the cash, as it is likely that they will lose a chunk of it to tax – something untaxable like time, especially in the run up to Christmas when people might have family commitments, could be a good alternative.

    19. Argh!*

      I would have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it’s the last chance for the whole crew to get together for a good time. On the other hand, if everyone has been feeling competitive against everyone else, it would be awkward.

      No, I’m not ambivalent, on second thought. I love a party!

  2. Spiral Sharpie*

    I was laid off without notice last year a couple weeks after the election. In many ways, it was a relief as my workplace was toxic, my boss was an absolute nightmare, and I was miserable every single day. But it really was the *worst* possible time for that to happen. It’s been a rough year to say the least, and I’m still job-hunting with nothing much on the horizon.

    I just feel like I continue to struggle with separating my own situation from what’s happening in the country and the world. It’s hard enough to look for a job in the best of times. In the worst of times (now), it feels impossible to stay motivated and positive, to not get distracted by the daily onslaught of craziness, to not spend a lot of time worrying about where things are going or what might happen next (e.g. for a period of time I couldn’t stop worrying about whether I was going to lose my ACA health insurance), and to fight the urge to hide out and binge on Netflix rather than job-hunt.

    I’m hoping to hear about how other people are coping and tips for how to work/look for work in the midst of chaos. Thanks!

    1. Emma*

      When I was job searching, it was really helpful to have a schedule. Otherwise, I did a lot of TV watching/internet looking, which can be very anxiety producing. Obviously you need the internet to apply for jobs, but there are only so many job opportunities that arise per day.

      It was helpful to volunteer at various places, to get out of the house and stay busy. One of my volunteer opportunities also helped me build skills which I then used on my resume, which I think helped get me my current job. So sometimes, dual purpose. But at the very least, I found it super helpful to not be at home watching Court TV (Because apparently that’s what’s mostly on in the daytime– yuck).

      1. k.k*

        Volunteering is a great idea. It helps fill in that resume gap, and give you something to keep busy with. Plus, when you feel like the world is falling apart it can help to do something to give back.

        1. strawberries and raspberries*

          Plus you make really great relationships if you treat your volunteer work like a job. True story: I got hired at my organization after I volunteered with them for a year and the director of the program I was helping with handpicked me to apply for an open position.

      2. Ms. Mad Scientist*

        I did dog walking/cat sitting during my last unemployment stint. It didn’t pay a whole lot but it got me out of the house every day. My boss was very flexible and would pick up walks if I had an interview. And I got to meet some great dogs and cats.

      3. couch sweet potato*

        How did you enforce the schedule? I’m having trouble adhering to mine. I create a list of things I want to do but then I just… don’t… move…

    2. TSG*

      So before I found my current job, I was in an incredibly high-stress, low pay job at a failing company. I was super anxious and depressed all the time, I hardly had energy to do anything, let alone leave work, go home, open my computer back up and start writing cover letters. But I knew I had to get out of there.

      So I started by being pretty lazy about it tbh – I’d scroll through jobs and only submit to ones that didn’t require a cover letter so I just had to attach my resume. I posted my resume to job sites and connected with recruiters kind of just hoping jobs would come to me and I wouldn’t have to think about. I got an interview pretty early and put a lot of energy and effort into the interviews just to get turned down in the final round. It really threw my focus for a few days, wondering how I was supposed to keep doing this, going to multi-round interviews and taking time from work that I couldn’t afford to take, etc. It is a super draining process, especially when you’re in a bad head space!

      But on evenings or weekends where I felt a little burst of energy I’d sit down with a coffee and play some fun music and sit and apply to jobs and write my letters and put all my energy into it. I couldn’t do it as often as I should have, but I was able to do *something*, which made me feel a little better.

      My recruiter ended up connecting me to a job that I didn’t think sounded very good for me, but I interviewed and talked to them and it ended up seeming not too bad. I’ve been in the job for a couple months now and I really, really love it. And now that I’m in a better place and better paid and not stressing about all those other worries so often I’m a lot more motivated and productive.

      So my advice would be to try and do the bare minimum when you can, find jobs with basic applications, things that won’t require too much effort but can still help you feel like you’re accomplishing something. Then if you have some days that feel better than others take an hour or two and just really focus on doing well crafted, more involved applications. Try to network, meet with recruiters. If possible, try to see a counselor. Work on applications when you’re hanging out with friends or in some other kind of supportive environment. Just mostly try to remember that you don’t have to always be “on” if you don’t think you can be, but try to do at least a little bit and then do more when you have the headspace for it.

      1. Artemesia*

        Any sort of accomplishment lifts the spirits a little. During a similar stint, I made sure I had a to do list that includes lots of things I could do in half an hour or so. This can include housework; having pleasant surroundings and ‘getting something done’ is energizing. And for the job search itself try to identify small tasks that can be done and checked off. Just getting a few things accomplished even if it is laundry, a sparkling bathroom and a crockpot stewing just makes you feel like a productive person.

        Sign up for a couple of exercise or yoga classes a week. Where I am the park department has inexpensive classes. Of if that is not affordable, schedule exercise e.g. M-W-F go for a 3 miles walk before breakfast (if you have a friend who is up for that, even better)

        It take a long time to find a good job; my daughter was out for 2 years after her office closed when she was on maternity leave. She had a few offers but wisely didn’t jump at things that were clearly not going to work out well. She got a great job and quick promotions but that company folded. And then after another nearly year long search has a really good job that pays well and plays to her strengths. But a lot of long stretches and misery getting to this place.

        Recognizing that it is a slog, focusing on effective job search and building a life in the meantime that has its constant small rewards and a schedule of activity will help you live while in this suspended animation in your work life.

      2. Venus Supreme*

        I went from a horrific, toxic job to a not-so-great job and I’m terrified about falling back into the mindset I was in at ToxicJob. I think my problem was that I went into it with high expectations. I was wondering if you changed anything on your end that made you love your job — did you enter it with low expectations? Didn’t let small annoyances get to you? Made an effort to be happier than at your old job?

    3. a girl has no name*

      Ooo yikes! I am so sorry you are dealing with this. In time of chaos it helps me to create routines in my environment. I set goals and have a schedule for the day, even if I am not going to work. It seems crazy, but even showering and putting on something other than sweatpants seems to put me in a better mood. You can make a goal to apply for two jobs each day and give yourself a reward when you meet that goal. Also, self-care is so, so important. Make time for baths or exercise or meditation or a hobby you enjoy. Routines and self-care always seem to help me in chaotic times. Good luck! We are rooting for you.

      1. KAG*

        Routines really saved my life during the many years out of work because of my TBI. One book that really helped me develop healthy routines was ‘Sink Reflections’ by Martha Cilley (the “FlyLady”. She’s helped a lot of people- I highly recommend it!

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      I’m sorry about the rough things you’re going through. They are rough, and I don’t want to minimize it. Job searching isn’t any fun, and being without your income is really tough. I’m hoping that you’ll find something soon!

      As far as things at a higher level – I’d suggest instead focusing on the people and events local to you. While the tales of woe and crazy from the world are disheartening, let’s be honest: How does it affect you, personally, in your daily life? Does all of it really impact you?

      Of course, sometimes the answer is yes – like healthcare. But the vast majority doesn’t. It’s okay to care about these things, but you only have so much ‘care’ in the tank everyday, you know? Is it more important to allocate that ‘care’ toward your job search, or to events that don’t directly impact you and that you can’t do anything about?

      To help you preserve it, I’d also suggest turning off the news and stop checking the sites where you get the news. If it bleeds, it leads, after all.

      This is the same advice I give to anyone, really, even people that aren’t going through hard things but are getting spun up about things they can’t control. I used to be one of them – but I found volunteering at a local organization helps me focus on something I can impact and control. I can’t control Kim Jong Un, but I can help gather food for families struggling in my neighborhood. I can’t change Hollywood people committing sexual abuse, but I can invite my neighbor over for dinner and connect with them.

      I’m hoping you find something good soon.

      1. Jesca*

        I agree 100%. I am not job hunting, but I had found that the news lately is just too much. I allocate once a day to checking the news. I have removed all news organizations from my social media. I have also unfollowed anyone who continuously posts inflammatory posts. It has actually given me a lot more perspective and compassion while allowing me to focus on the things that actually do affect my day to day life.

        1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

          I’m exactly where you are. Too much news/political vitriol makes me feel anxious and helpless, so I’ve cut way back on media consumption.

        2. Specialk9*

          I’m not job hunting, but the stress of 2017 literally burned out my adrenal system. On doctor’s orders, I’m not allowed to read news sites anymore unless work related, and even then only skim, not fixate. I can’t really even do Facebook much.

          I listen to audiobooks from the library (Overdrive app, free with library card number), color in an awfully coloring book (Jenny Lawson put out an awesome one), read humor and cooking blogs. And I read AAM *a lot*. (Thanks Alison for not being about He Who Shall Not Be Named!)

      2. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah, I’m not Job hunting, but I try to limit my time on social media, and avoid too many news sites. I actively avoid reading the comments sections on news articles because people just frustrate me, and I skim quickly past friends who are really involved in discussing these things. Basically, you have to learn how to scroll quickly sometimes!

      3. Wanda Trossler*

        Thank you for this comment. Even though I KNOW all this, I really need a reminder and your words summed up perfectly what I needed to hear. I’ve saved them to read again when I’m having a bad day (hope that doesn’t sound weird).

    5. Pineapple Incident*

      I feel you. I wasn’t laid off last year, but was job searching and making little enough at ExJob that I was running out of time before I wouldn’t be able to pay my portion of rent without getting a second job.

      I found that getting organized with my job search made me feel empowered even if nothing was happening- like I was taking control of how I managed my search. I kept every email I ever received from an employer. I read AAM religiously and finally took a lot of the advice that I had processed but not fully implemented, like interview tips and revamping how I wrote cover letters (you know, I’m sure, how a lot of us are like “I’m already doing that!… I think I’m already doing that… maybe I’m not doing that after all..).

      My biggest single organizational thing was maintaining a Googledoc Excel sheet on every job I’d applied for, no matter what it was. I had fields for the company, position, when it was posted, when I applied, link for the posting, when (if ever) I heard back about the various stages of the position and when (if ever) phone screens, 1st and 2nd round interviews were held, and notes. Sometimes the notes were like “crazy interviewer, avoid forever, self-selected out 7/31/16” but they were still helpful. If I hadn’t heard from a job at all after 2 months, I wrote N/A in all of my contact-related fields and moved on. It was kind of a nice way to close the book on things.

      TL;DR- Sometimes it helps to take control of how you manage your search, in whatever small way you can. Good luck!

      1. Turquoisecow*

        That’s spreadsheet is a good idea. After a while you kind of lose track of whether you’ve applied for a job or not, whether you heard back or not. I didn’t feel like I had the mental energy to go that far, but I did move all my job related emails to a folder so I could easily locate the information if I was wondering.

      2. Emma*

        Yea, I did something similar. I also had a folder where I saved job descriptions, cover letters, and resumes (if they differed), since a lot of times if I got an interview I’d have trouble remembering exactly what the position was/what I sent them.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I do this!! I did it in 2012 and I’m doing it now. I color code it, too, with highlights. Bright yellow is In Progress (interviewing), light purple is No Reply, light brown is It Rejected Me, and light orange means I Rejected It or there was something weird or they decided not to fill the position.

        Since a lot of the low-level jobs around here tend to get reposted, it helps me keep track if they show up in listings and I’ve forgotten whether I applied already or not.

      4. GeneralKnowledge*

        +1 on the Google spreadsheet as the best job hunting organizational tool! I’ve been hunting for 3 months and it helps me keep track of the many things that go along with job hunting (interviewer names, times, org website, notes, etc.) but also keeps me accountable to actually submitting applications. I found that without it I would spend a lot of time hunting for jobs to apply to, bookmark them, and feel like I did the thing for that day and move on. This helped keep me honest about how many jobs I was actually applying to, and made it easy to set goals for each week/month. I haven’t landed a position yet, but this thing really keeps me sane amidst the awfulness that is the job hunt! Best of luck to you!

    6. SpiderLadyCEO*

      I feel you! I was in almost the exact same place, and honestly what helped me was having another friend who either worked from home or was job searching to come over and make a day of it. (Also met job searching friends in coffee shops and such around town. Having a job search buddy helps A LOT.)

      That way, I had company, it was less boring, we could proof read each other’s work, and then when everything was done we would make dinner together and watch a movie.

      I also tried to schedule something everyday – I would make plans to meet another unemployed friend for coffee, or yoga. We tried new things, and signed up for classes. I joined more social groups then I ever had before, just to get out of the house and meet people. These things made sure I had something bright and fun to look forward to and enjoy and gave me a framework to work around. Then, when I felt better about things, I was more able to get things done.

      (This isn’t directly related, but I also started glueing evidence of everything I did into my planner. Movie stubs, concert wrist bands – that way, when I look back on the year I am able to see the positive things I did, and I won’t just remember being on the couch – which to be fair I did a lot of.)

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I honestly am in the same boat–I lost my job two days after the election, and it was pretty fooking awful. I mean, I was already super upset and then oh, here ya go. Bye.

      I’ve just been doing the best I can. I was slowly becoming aware of my anxiety issues and how they were affecting my life over the last ten years or so, and how they contributed to me losing my job. So this year, I’ve tried to take steps to mitigate them (meditation and exercise) and it’s helped a lot. I can’t do any therapy because I have no money and no insurance. (Yeah, here comes a tax penalty on top of all of it. That should be fun. :P)

      And I’ve been working on my own projects as well (books). While still looking for a job. All I can do is keep plugging away. It is super hard to motivate myself when I have nothing else going on. I try to get out of the house as much as I can–having a weekly dharma group meeting helps, and tomorrow, I’m spending time with my nerd group on our last street cleanup before spring.

      I’ve been doing what I can to help–calling my reps about harmful legislative proposals, the protest when You-Know-Who came to town, and trying to raise money with the e-book for Puerto Rico. It makes me feel better about the situation to try and do something. Once in a while I have to step away from social media and the news, and that’s okay. I have to devote some time to self-care or nothing I do will be effective because I won’t be able to do it. You can choose to resist or not–some people cannot right now, and that’s okay. I will do it for you. :)

      All I can say is this: do what you have to do for you. Eat well and get plenty of sleep. Don’t sit home–find stuff to do, even if it’s only going for a walk. Go to the library. Visit with friends; don’t isolate yourself. For right now, things are still somewhat stable. I’ve been trying to proceed as though they’re going to stay that way.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Sing it from the mountain tops, EW. Yes to all this, OP.

        Cut way back on media, now is not the time to be surrounded by negativity. We can’t help our country if we are not on sure footing ourselves, get your own situation looking different, then worry about the country.

        Watch the isolation. It’s fine to take quiet time, it’s not fine to sit there alone week after week. Some people can connect with others once a week and that is enough. Other people need daily contact with people. Find out where you are at and build a plan.

        Quiet time. It’s not wrong to want quiet time, time where we just shut out the world. This quiet time can be restorative. Many people think it is escapism and it can be when used randomly. However, if you plan a quiet time each day, this is totally reasonable and totally healthy. Upping the stakes here, figure out how you can use your quiet time to grow you. Read, take a free online course, learn a new skill. The trick is to be deliberate about how you use your down time.

        Last. What you are talking about is powerlessness. And it’s pretty normal to feel powerless when unemployed, eh, even employed people are feeling pretty powerless right now. Think about ways you can take back your power. Start this process by thinking of things you can do. Suppose the first thing that pops into your mind is “I can glue that broke chair leg back into place.” Good, do that. Give it your best. When that is done look around and pick something else. This is how we take back our power that we have lost for whatever reason.

    8. Luna Lovegood*

      I love to make things – crochet, painting and drawing, sewing etc. – and being creative has got me through a lot of anxiety and uncertainty in the past. It helps to develop new skills and that feeling of accomplishment is awesome! You can get materials for that sort of thing pretty cheaply and it really gives you something to focus on.

      A few commentors have recommended volunteering, too, which I have also had great experiences with, having met some lovely people and picked up some useful skills.

    9. Rachel in NYC*

      I’ve been in your shoes. And agree with what everyone says about the importance about coming up with some sort of schedule. I’d suggest- apropos of your feelings about what’s currently going on- that you might feel better if you look for volunteer activities that both take advantage of your skill sets (and let you grow them) but that might make you feel that you were making difference in an area that matters to you.

      For example, I started volunteering with an organization that does work regarding election laws and election legislation- it gives me an opportunity to work on my writing skills and work on something that is deeply personal to me.

    10. Robbenmel*

      When I was out of work for a year, I was able to work some as an extra for movies and TV shows filming in our area. It didn’t pay a lot of bills, but it was fun and required very little in the way of brain power, which was a relief for me; you sit where they tell you until they tell you to move somewhere else. Just chat with other extras and people-watch…worked for me. I got to meet some pretty famous people, meet some cool not-famous people, and generally got myself out of the house a couple of times a month.

    11. AudreyParker*

      Thanks for asking this, and thanks to all the commenters – I’m in the same situation, it’s interesting to hear from other people. I don’t know anyone else who is (or has been!) unemployed, so it’s been really difficult to not feel a) like I’m the only one who doesn’t know the big secret to getting hired, and b) like what’s the point, when I’m probably losing my insurance and the apocalypse is imminent anyway ;) I’ve also been trying to crack down on what I perceive as my slacking by not letting myself go anywhere other than medical appointments, since I feel like it will look like I don’t take my situation seriously. So it’s helpful to hear about other people actually taking time to do things that might actually be enjoyable or non job-search related, and that being ok! I haven’t felt comfortable volunteering since my productivity level is so low I need all the time & energy I can get for the job hunt (for some reason, not finding any opportunities that might actually be skill-building as well). It’s definitely a daily struggle not to default to an X-Files binge, but just allowing for baby steps as making progress and dialing back my Twitter time has helped a bit, as has getting a bit more exercise outside on most days.

    12. Thlayli*

      It sounds like you are ab the verge of becoming depressed (or possibly already depressed). And still reading the news. My advice is to delete all your news apps, switch stations when news comes on tv or radio, avoid social media as much as you can and eg block news sites on FB – basically reduce your exposure to the news as much as possible.
      You will still hear any really important information through the grapevine. But you really don’t need and can’t afford to absorb all the misery in the world at the moment. Your mental health is more important.

  3. Wonderwall*

    I am administrative support for a department. I answer to the director and the dept representatives under that director. I help with all the reps except one, Joe, who had an assistant of his own. The assistant left recently and after much debate, they don’t want to fill that position. Instead they want me to assist Joe.

    Joe has been with the company for at least a decade and brings in more revenue than anyone else. Because of this, he is allowed to act however he wants, which means frequent yelling matches. He will often storm into the offices of other representatives to yell and curse if things aren’t going his way. His assistant told stories about how he would curse and yell at her too if something went wrong. She tried to take it up with the director but she was brushed off, again because of his standing in the company as the highest grossing earner.

    His last assistant had a pretty tough backbone and was able to handle him in her own. I am definitely not like that. I have never been the victim of his tantrums but I know me well enough that I can’t put up with that. And i know that I shouldn’t have to! I’m willing to give it a chance but if he acts up, I won’t be able to handle that on a regular basis. I don’t think the director would let me not assist him since the last assistant made complaints and nothing changed for her. Everyone knows what his deal is but won’t make him change because of his revenue.

    I’m now really anxious for the next few weeks to see what he’s like to work with. I’ll give it a shot but I left my last job after years of tolerating passive aggressiveness; I can’t handle active aggressiveness. How should I handle things if they go badly? My friends/family say I should be blunt with the director and tell her I’ll quit if they continue to force me to work with Joe. I think I’d rather stick it out until I can find a new job because to be critical of the top seller in the company probably wouldn’t go well for a reference. What do I say to interviewers if this is the reason I’m leaving (especially since this change comes after being here less than a year)? I really like my job actually, but I will not work with someone who is given free reign to throw verbal abuse at me.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What do I say to interviewers if this is the reason I’m leaving (especially since this change comes after being here less than a year)? I really like my job actually, but I will not work with someone who is given free reign to throw verbal abuse at me.

      You could couch it as “not a good fit,” but that usually just leads to follow-up questions about what wasn’t a good fit. I know the conventional wisdom is that you shouldn’t badmouth a former employer. When I’ve interviewed candidates, though, I don’t mind them mentioning bad parts of their previous job, as long as they sound balanced about it. If you otherwise liked the company and/or job, you can say what you liked about it and that a change in management made you want to leave.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I remember doing a phone screen for a woman who was leaving a job she’d had for 6 years, and I asked what prompted her to search for a new job. She explained that after a few changes of management at her current employer, the culture and work environment had changed in ways that she found detrimental, so she was looking for a new environment where she could thrive again. She said it so graciously and calmly that it didn’t come off at all complain-y, there was genuine regret in her voice, and I absolutely didn’t hold it against her.

        I think the thing about badmouthing former employers is more about complaining and being super negative, like “I’m leaving because my boss is a jerk and I hate the new duties they’ve piled on me” versus “There was some restructuring and the nature of my job changed significantly from what I was actually hired to do, so I’m looking for work where I can focus on [whatever].”

        3. Amy*

          Very much this. “My work transitioned over time at (company), and I realized that the environment in my current area wasn’t a good fit for my work style” doesn’t come off as complaining. If they ask for detail about what wasn’t a good fit, you can focus on the positive by discussing what you’re looking for in a new workplace, e.g. “I work best in a collaborative atmosphere, so I’m impressed by your strong commitment to teamwork.”

          Someone with strong communication skills may read through the lines and interpret the combination as “I was forced to work with a bunch of rude, combative jerks, and I’m sick of it,” but if you’re phrasing it in a generally gracious, positive manner, most people won’t see that as a problem. The problem with complaining isn’t that you were in a bad situation; it’s that you think it’s appropriate to use an interview as a venting session, which reflects badly on your judgement.

    2. LKW*

      There is a technique that might help – I don’t know if your company culture would allow it but it’s called the Slam and Scream. You can find the book online. It boils down to when someone is being an ass – you walk into their office, close the door and then yell right back. You put them on notice that it doesn’t matter how they treat anyone else, but you are not going to stand for it. And then you help them as asked. If I recall correctly it was aimed at the admin staff in law firms – since lawyers are notoriously argumentative and hot tempered.

      It might get you fired though. For interviewers I think it fine to say that you left as the position was not a good fit.

      2. Fact & Fiction*

        Ironically, I became the favorite backup support for one of the most notoriously difficult partners in my large law firm when I covered for him for a few months precisely be sure i stood up for to for with him. I was also super competent at a lot of things other support staff members who covered for others were not. He was the kind who needed someone who could Get Shit Done without bugging him and able to take it when he got intense. He raised his voice to me ONCE and I firmly but professionally Shut That Down. He actually came back to apologize later and we got along great ever after. Down side: he’d try to chase me down to do stuff for him when his assistant was out even after I went back to my normal duties.

        Oh the stories K could tell about way worse attorneys…He just made people cry because he was intense and wanted stuff done. At least he wasn’t one of the throwers of things…

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It’s been an expensive lesson in life for me, but at least 90% of the time when we tell people to STOP, they generally do. We do not believe that our words have that much weight or power but reality is our words DO mean something to others.

          I know that you don’t like confrontation, OP, but this guy is confrontational. At some point there will probably be a confrontation.

          I remember one night decades ago, my husband was away. I heard a noise on the far side of the house.
          I realized I could hide and pray I was not discovered. But in my hiding spot I would be cornered (small area) and I would not be able to fight well. PLUS, I would be fighting on the intruder’s terms NOT mine, as I am stuck waiting for the intruder to find me in this tiny space.
          With that, I decided that I needed to set the terms for the confrontation. I picked up my handy baseball bat and proceeded out to search the house.

          Life is like this. Some times we know there is going to be a shit-storm and it’s just a matter of when and how. Just like that intruder was wrong to walk into my house, this “person” is wrong for yelling at people and treating them like dirt. Since you have no tolerance for this, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Tell the guy you will not be screamed at. You will help him as much as you can but you will not help him if screams/cusses at you/etc. Tell him before anything happens. Your bosses will not back you, but they won’t back you if he does abuse you, so this is more of the same thing. Again, nothing to lose and everything to gain.

          The intruder turned out to be my landlady. (wth?!) I had the baseball bat up in the air and realized at the last second it was her. We both screamed. I was shook to the core. As calmly as I could I said, “You need to call first.” She said, “I thought you guys weren’t home.” I repeated the one sentence I was capable of saying, “You need to call first.”

          She never, ever did that stunt again.
          We have to tell people NO.

          1. only acting normal*

            My 90+yr old great-grandmother heard an intruder one night, she went to the top of the stairs and yelled “Fergus! Wakeen! Get up! There’s someone downstairs!”
            Intruder left.
            She lived alone, but chose two names common for 20-somethings at the time. Canny woman.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              [adds to book of tricks]

              I should have been able to figure that out. That’s really good. In the 70s my father pretended to have a police tap on our line. That pretense worked and the dude with the death threats quit calling.

    3. The IT Manager*

      “Not good fit” is a terrible answer because you were a good fit for however long you worked there until Joe became your responsibility.

      I think you have to come up with a way to say that Joe was the problem. You don’t want to come across as fragile so you have to have a level of honesty about it.

      1. Anna*

        Yeah, I agree. It looks weird that you worked there for a significant period of time and then decided you weren’t a good fit. I think it would make more sense to say something about your job changing or the direction of the position was changing and you realized THAT wouldn’t be a good fit for your goals. Or similar.

      2. Been there*

        I agree with this. I think the OP could figure out a way to describe ‘Joe’ in a general way that would make it clear that he was ‘that guy’ – everyone in their organization has one and that when he became part of her core responsibilities she tried x, y, and z to work with him and ultimately the conflict was not resolvable. She would have counter that with examples of how she was successful with others and how she successfully handled normal workplace conflict.

        Bonus points if she could work in there somehow… “It was unfortunate for both myself and the others I supported successfully, however I understand the situation from the company’s point of view and their reluctance to rock the boat with their highest revenue producer. I wouldn’t have considered leaving if not for the conflict from this individual that was well outside of the realm of normal workplace conflict and interaction.”

      3. Mephyle*

        You were a good fit for a long time until your job changed so that you were now reporting to a person whose management style didn’t ___________________. (fill in the blank, suggestions welcome)

    4. OhNo*

      This might be a case for one of Alison’s scripts about the requirements of the job changing. I can’t seem to find an example right now, but it was something along the lines of, “I really enjoyed my position initially, but the needs of the business moved in a direction that wasn’t quite as good of a fit for me. I’m looking more for a position where I can do X.”

      That allows you to point out the parts that you liked, and covers why you stuck it out there for a while, and also gives you an opening to ask about specific things that you might have concerns about (like the personalities you’d be working with in any new job).

    5. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      “Changes in the job which were not a good fit for you”

      I’ve had to come up with something similar – I’m looking due too. Job is fine, coworkers are fine. New Mgr – not fine.

      2. Liane*

        “Changes in the job which were not a good fit for you”

        Yes, use this or something similar. Maybe, “The duties were changed.” IMO, “Supporting several reasonable people” is a very different Job Duty than “Supporting several reasonable people plus a Screaming Jerk whose bosses won’t make him behave professionally or fire him.”

    6. J*

      “I really enjoyed my job for the first year, but then the job responsibilities changed and were no longer a good fit for me.” or even “I really enjoyed my job for the first year, but then my work was expanded to include support for another department. Our work styles are not compatible, so I’m looking for a better fit.”

    7. Business Cat*

      Could you talk to one of the people that you currently report to? Let them know that what you have seen of Joe’s communication with past reports gives you pause for concern, and ask how they would like you to handle things in the event that he becomes verbally aggressive with you. Their reaction will tell you how you should probably proceed. Either they have a plan for dealing with his misbehavior and reassure you that you’ll have backup, or you’ll get some version of “try not to let it get to you.” You already know that it will *definitely* get to you (which is reasonable!), so let that inform your choice to stay or to look for other work.

      If it becomes a situation where you need to leave, I think you could explain it this way: “I really enjoyed my time at [Company], but there was a change in management that significantly altered my role as well as the culture of the office as a whole. Since I had reasonable assurance that the situation was unlikely to be resolved, I thought it was best to seek out an opportunity that was more in sync with my skillset and strengths.”

    8. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I’m so sorry – this situation sounds like it kind of sucks all around. All I can do is tell you how I handled an agressive screamer that I used to assist. Maybe it will help you prepare or give yourself some ideas for his (unfortunately most likely inevetiable) first tantrum directed at you.

      I just treated this guy like I would a 2 year old throwing a tantrum (particularly one that I’m not responsible for). I just let him scream it out. I stared at him with a blank face while he screamed. I didn’t try to interject or defend myself (at this point) and if asked a direct question I stuck solely to action oriented responses (I refused to engage in his tantrumy illogical train of thought). I thought of myself as a temporary robot. The most I would do was offer him vague apologies “I’m sorry about that. I will send you x” or “apologies, I will reprint those right now”. It seemed to make things worse briefly, but eventually he’d get it out of his system. After things cooled down sometimes I would email him an explanation or correct whatever he was mistaken about, but most of the time it was clear that he knew he was wrong or overreacting so I just let it be.

      Thing is, he actually stopped tantruming at me after two or three times and I became his favorite person to direct work to/interact with. My theory is that I didn’t give him the emotional reaction that he was looking for (he was upset/felt stupid so he wanted to reassert his power and make someone else feel that way instead), but by not reacting I denied him the response he was looking for.

      I’m sorry you’re in this situation. From what you wrote, it sounds like you will most likely need to move on. If you’re interviewing elsewhere I think it would be fine to say there was a shift in your responsibilities/coverage from when you interviewed, making the role no longer a good fit. I know you’re not supposed to bad mouth former employers, but I think being honest and factual is just not the end of the world. Something along the lines of “there was a change to the professionals that I cover, and I now support someone who has a temper and can be quite aggressive/hostile. Some people have very thick skins and do fine in that sort of environment, but I know myself well enough to know that it’s not the right fit for me.”. But then, who knows – take this last part with a grain of salt. I feel like sometimes we twist ourselves in knots trying to not “badmouth” our former employer, but like – there’s obviously a reason you’re leaving. Sometimes its hard to strike that balance between honesty and “not badmouthing”.

    9. Artemesia*

      One thing I have seen several times is that people put up with crap and then a new person comes in and doesn’t and it changes.

      I would first be job searching; get that resume in shape and begin making contacts.

      Second, I would step up and do good work for Joe.

      Then, the very first time he pulls this crap on you, I would stand up and say ‘I will not be spoken to like that. If you are verbally abusive I am not going to do your work.’ And then silence. And don’t do his work until he is polite to you.

      Is it a risk? Yes, which is why the job search is important. But sometimes what it takes for something to change is someone not putting up with abuse. ‘I don’t want to work for Joe’ is a different demand then ‘I will not do his work if he is verbally abusive and continues to create a hostile workplace.’ (I know that this is legally technically not the case but it is factually the case and many businesses are sensitive to this phrase. ) Be the person who does not tolerate abuse. If your boss tells you ‘that’s just the way Joe is’ tell her ‘well I don’t tolerate verbal abuse, that’s just the way I am.’

      ‘Verbal abuse’ and ‘hostile workplace’ are words to use not ‘yelling’ or ‘rudeness’. No one should have to put up with this. And practice these scenarios so it flows naturally when it happens. If you have those two sentences ready and have said them a dozen times, they will be easier to deliver the FIRST TIME he screams at you.

      I am betting they either get him his own assistant or he tones down with you. It is of course a risk of being fired, but it may be hard for them to fire someone who is clearly saying ‘I won’t be verbally abused.’ This is a very different moral stance than ‘I won’t work for Joe.’

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Yes!! What Artemesia said. Despite what you’ve heard about Joe and his tantrums, continue to do your best work for him (just as you do for the others in your group). Then the First time he ever directs a tantrum at you (IF he does) you nip it in the bud right then and there. Then go directly to your manager and let her know what transpired and why.

      2. lulu*

        All of this. This is your chance to change it. You might still have to leave but it’s worth a shot.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        A friend just told an elderly parent this and a miracle has happened. Parent is on good behavior now with friend. But not with the rest of the family.

    10. anon for this*

      Is it a symptom of the overall culture, or is it just the one guy? If it’s just the one guy or if they want to fix the culture it can be addressed.

      My entire department has explicit permission to hang up on our yeller, and we’ve all done it. He’s a top performer but we can’t support him if he can’t communicate effectively. That message is being conveyed from our VP to his VP, down to his manager, and to him, plus through HR. It’s still frustrating but we’re starting to see results.

      If you’d want to stay if the yelling stops, ask your manager to help you problem solve. Don’t go into it with an ultimatum but ask for help addressing an issue you’re worried about. The tactics to solve it could be anything from hanging up the phone to your director physically interrupting the tantrums. If the director won’t help problem solve ramp up your job search. Everyone’s advice about just saying the job changed is spot on.

    11. Specialk9*

      Here’s a technique: before you see him, gather a cloak of calm and a backbone of steel. Then when he becomes verbally abusive, calmly and quietly say “Please do not talk to me like that.” And when he continues, “Please do not speak to me in this abusive manner.” Do not yell or get sucked into arguing.

      Make it so that if he complains about you, he’ll be using your term. It leads people to think, “yeah, he’s pretty abusive.” rather than “OP is in the wrong.”

    12. Natalie*

      As far as how to handle Joe’s screaming, which technique you think will work best for you – practice it! Find a friend who’s willing to yell some improvised work jazz and practice your chosen technique until it feels comfortable. It sounds silly but it really does help.

    13. msroboto*

      I have been dealing with a yeller for a bit.
      Technique one he starts to take something out on me I leave the room. In fact I could easily just drive away. I am a contractor and I will not be yelled at.
      I also walked out of a meeting when the same guy started yelling at another guy.
      And our new favorite. I was talking to a couple of people including the guy that keeps my schedule (which is good for me). He came in yelling and wanted me to help one of his people. It was about 4:30 person was leaving at 5:00. Guy that keeps schedule says she can do that tomorrow AM. Love him. You yell and expect results into the penalty box with you.
      After that all went down I said to him if you came in and nicely asked is it possible for you to help employee with xx she’s leaving in a half and hour and we need this done. How do you think that would have gone down compared to how it went down.
      He’s in his 70’s but he is learning that he can’t yell without consequences and those might be his priority is not my priority – thanks to the guy that manages my schedule!!!!. You can teach an old dog sometimes.

    14. Thlayli*

      It seems to me there’s a possible solution here, which is to come up with a plan with your managers support ahead of time for dealing with Joe and your manager to back you up when you follow through. There’s a number of steps:
      1 getting your own manager to acknowledge that this is a problem
      2 coming up with a plan for how you will react when Joe inevitably yells at you
      3 following through and
      4 (crucial step) your manager supporting you when you take the agreed action
      If I were in your situation I would go to my own line manager and have an honest conversation. Tell her “Sally told me that Joe used to yell and curse at her frequently. Im worried he will yell and curse at me too. I have a very different personality to Sally and I know myself well enough to know that I will not be able to work well under those circumstances. In fact I expect that if I’m subjected to the level of verbal abuse Sally was, I will probably end up spending a lot of time crying in the bathroom, which will obviously affect my ability to complete my work. I would like for you and I to come up with a plan ahead of time for how we can deal with it when Joe inevitably begins to verbally abuse me.”
      So you’ve laid the problem out pretty clearly and honestly. There are a few ways she might react;
      1 she could brush you off and act like Joes behaviour is NBD
      2 she could understand what you are saying but not really have any idea what to do about it
      3 she could acknowledge the issue and come up with some ideas to help solve it
      If it’s 3 then great, but if it’s 1 or 2 then I think you can react By saying something like:
      “One possible option is that when Joe begins to abuse me I can [insert behaviour here – I’ve put a list of possible responses below]. Or I could [response 2] or [response 3]. Can you please think about this issue and I’ll come back to talk to you in [give a set time like tomorrow or on friday] when you’ve had a chance to consider” then pretty much just walk away. Hopefully even if she has brushed you off she will actually think about it and engage when you return.
      List of possible ways you could respond:
      1 burst into tears and become incapable of doing anything for a couple of hours (you could include this as [response 3] if it’s an accurate reflection of your personality and if your boss genuinely doesn’t seem to recognise how big the problem is)
      2 stand up and walk away
      3 yell a specific phrase back to him as loud as you can e.g. “STOP YELLING AT ME” or if you think Joe might genuinely not realise how bad he is behaving you could try defusing the situation with humour and yell at the top of your voice “I CANT HEAR YOU SPEAK UP” or something
      4 sit completely silent and stone faced
      5 say something like “yes of course sir no problem right away I’ll fix it” to get rid of him and then go to your manager to explain why it’s not possible to fix and get your manager to deal with him
      6 call out for help and have someone come help you eg someone who sits near or your manager herself
      7 after he leaves file a complaint with HR
      You can probably come up with some other options and hopefully your manager will engage with you to help.
      If your manager refuses to acknowledge the issue or accept your solutions then you could try enlisting the help of one or more sympathetic colleagues. It sounds like you are good at your job and provide support to a lot of people so it’s in their interests that you continue to be able to do that. So they might be more willing to help come up with solutions.
      If no one is willing to help you come up with a plan then you will have to come up with a plan yourself. So pick whatever behaviour you think is best and email your boss (so you have a record) saying “as discussed earlier i am very concerned that Joe may verbally abuse me in the future, as I was told he verbally abused his last assistant. If he or anyone else begins to shout or curse at me I plan to [do x].”
      Then if you get in any trouble for doing x you have the email as proof that your manager knew ahead of time. If your manager tells you not to do x then ask what you should do instead. If she tells you to do something you can’t do like “just ignore him” or “stand up to him” then reply “I really don’t believe I can [do that]. Knowing his and my personalities I think any attempt on my behalf to ignore him will just end up with me bursting into tears (or whatever) which I really don’t want to do. What should I do in that situation?” All of this in writing.
      If your manager ignores you or insists on something that you think will not work, then just see how it pans out. When it inevitably happens try to do what you planned or what manager has instructed you to do and see what happens. If you end up reduced to tears and unable to work for the rest of the day then go back to your manager and point out that this is exactly what you worried would happen and the plan is not working. Depending on her response that’s the time to go to HR. So you can complain about both joe’s behaviour and your managers lack of support.
      Good luck

    15. Tabby Baltimore*

      I didn’t see this anywhere in the 35 comments that I read, but before you start working for Joe, I hope you will consider having a conversation with your direct supervisor about how to balance the work you do for the director, and the department representatives under that director, and Joe himself. I’d be asking things like “Well, since Joe brings in more revenue than anyone else, does that mean I need to make his requests my first priority? If not, how do you suggest I prioritize between the director’s/dept directors’ work and Joe’s work? And who will be making that priority list clear to Joe before I start working for him?” I don’t think your leadership has really thought through the consequences of allowing you to work for Joe; I don’t think it has yet occurred to them that Joe will almost certainly end up–for all intents and purposes–demanding ALL of your work hours to support just him, but he sounds to me exactly like the kind of guy who would do that. Asking this question of your supervisor should shake him/her up a little, and I hope s/he will come back to you with solid guidance, and be willing to be the person to tell Joe how much of your time he can expect to get. Please keep us posted. We are all rooting for you here.

    16. Bagpuss*

      Coming late to this, but I had a situation with a boss a bit like this – he would shout and scream (and if anyone responded in ind, he would then turn it around and accuse them of behaving inappropriately because they shouted!. It was not functional workplace)
      The first time it happened to me, I was really shaken and said to him ” can tell you’re upset. Can we talk about this a little later when you are calmer?” . It completely de-railed his tantrum – he stood there with his mouth open for a few minutes then walked out of the room.
      A variation on this may work – practice a calm face and make a conscious decision not to (visibly) react, either by showing you are upset, or by responding in kind. Ideally a kid of bored / slightly ‘WTF’ expression, and a response that makes clear that you’ll be happy to assist him once he is able to calm down and be clear about what he needs.
      I also agree abut raising it with your manager / HR and make a formal complaint about his abusive behaviour each and every time it happens.

  4. Nikki*

    In general how long do you wait to update your LInkedIn information when you start a new job?

    On the one hand I feel like I should indicate I’m no longer at my old job, but I’m also a bit wary of updating to the new job before probation period is over.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I updated immediately when I started my new job. I figured if it didn’t work out, I could always delete it.

      1. Specialk9*

        My current company, people can wait a year or more! It’s pretty odd. Honestly, I’d wait till out of probationary period.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I update immediately. Of course, most jobs I’ve taken haven’t had a probation period. When I start, I’ve really started.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I added the company and the position immediately. I still haven’t added a description 10 months later.

    4. Pineapple Incident*

      I think Alison’s previous advice on this was Day 1 at the new job, since you are actually there. It’s easy enough to change a position or delete one that if you were to leave during your probation period, you could just do that instead of maintaining your page with previous employment up top.

    6. Buu*

      I work in a non client facing role, so I tend to wait until I’ve passed my probation. My industry is unstable and I’ve heard several stories about projects getting cancelled and the new firm using the fact the employee is on probation to get rid of them. I don’t really want to update my profile and then have to change it.
      I think it’s a bit different if you’re client/ PR focused as people; as you need to network from the get-go.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      Immediately, but I’ve also always passed probation periods and never thought of that as an issue until people mentioned it on here – then I finally got why some people don’t update so quickly.

    8. ThatLibTech*

      I would update it immediately. Don’t be like me and forget about it, and don’t realize it until a year down the road when someone sends you a little “Congrats on the 1 year anniversary!” notification, and you haven’t been there in four months …

    9. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I usually wait a couple of days or a week after I start. I don’t want it to look like updating my LinkedIn profile is at the top of my list of priorities.

      1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        I would wait a few weeks just make sure you like this job. I think you can get a pretty good sense of whether or not its going to work out. Best of luck to you!!

    10. Close Bracket*

      Even if you are no longer at your current job after the probationary period, you have still left your last job. To update that part, you need to balance how long you are comfortable with that information being out of date with whether or not you are ok with people thinking you are out of work.

      You don’t say how long the probationary period is. In my field at my level, it’s typically 6 months. To me, that seems like an awfully long time to let people think I was still at my last job. If you are looking at 3 months, don’t worry about. People neglect their profiles all the time.

  5. always know the name of the game*

    Regular commenter using a different handle.

    I am dealing with a very frustrating situation at work and would love some advice/coping techniques. I have started a job search because I realize that this situation isn’t going to change, but until I find something, I need to figure out how best to manage.

    I work in a small office with only 4 other people. I like the work I do and the people I work with, but one of my coworkers (Chris) is driving me crazy. Our job requires serious attention to detail and Chris has none. Chris routinely sends out mass emails with typos or with very vague information. I am usually the person who answers the phones and frequently have to deal with phone calls from people saying “I got an email from Chris” that I know nothing about and doesn’t include enough information for me to know why Chris wanted them to call in.

    Here’s the issue: Chris is the partner of Pat, our boss. It’s not at all unusual in our corporate culture for couples to manage offices together. I know that Pat has some frustrations with Chris’s lack of attention to detail, but I also know that it’s highly unlikely Chris will leave this position.

    Any tips or tricks on how I can deal with Chris without losing my mind?

    1. Murphy*

      Can you ask to be copied on emails where Chris is asking people to call in? If there’s not enough information there for you, maybe you can find out the details before they call?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      So you say the office has only 4 other people. Does Chris have a manager? Or is Pat (the boss) the direct boss of everyone?

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I am usually the person who answers the phones and frequently have to deal with phone calls from people saying “I got an email from Chris” that I know nothing about and doesn’t include enough information for me to know why Chris wanted them to call in.

      Do you have the option of saying “I’m sorry, I don’t know, you’ll have to speak to Chris”?

      1. Happy Lurker*

        “I’m sorry, I don’t know, you’ll have to speak to Chris” – this and then take a deep breath. Clearly it is in your nature to help, but squash it. Just patch them through to Chris as quickly as possible.

          1. Happy Lurker*

            That stinks! So, you are stuck trying to get the information out of the person on the phone. That is super frustrating. My technique would be honesty with phone caller. “Can you send me that email, I wasn’t on it” or “I know nothing about it, please bring me up to speed”. I would guess that the lack of attention to detail is noticed by them as well. I would also guess that asking Chris to include you on emails may fall on deaf ears, but that could also be a good first step.
            For Chris…smile and nod. If they are a partner, they are not leaving and you may not (but you can try) be able to reprogram their MO.
            Put your time in, get your experience and know that you will not be there forever. Allow yourself time at the end of the day to decompress, if possible.
            Good luck!

    4. D.W.*

      Have you told Chris about the impact his emails are having on your workload (having to respond to people’s inquiries) and that in general his emails aren’t very helpful? If not, I’d start there by saying, “Hey Chris, I’ve been receiving some inquiries about the email you’re sending out. Is there a way we can work to add more salient information in there for the recipients?” There is probably a much better way to say that.

      But since you are the admin, maybe you can get permission to send emails out on his behalf from his email address, that way you can make sure all pertinent information is there and control what goes out. I used to do that for my boss when I was interning.

      1. always know the name of the game*

        I think I do need to have a conversation about sending the emails with more details. I may be able to work it so that I’m the one sending them out, but I’m not sure. It’s worth a shot!

    5. fposte*

      Is there somebody other than Chris who can handle these mass emails? If somebody–like you–created a template, would that help, and would Chris follow it rather than making up new language?

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          You might even think about storing these templated messages in Chris’s own Mail Signatures section of his/her Outlook. He can name them whatever he wants, so perhaps that will help him/her remember what each one is for. When s/he makes a selection, and clicks to open them in the little window, s/he can copy/paste them directly into a blank email. Or, alternatively, just keep a blank template in the Drafts section. I hope “re-programming” Chris doesn’t get too painful.

    6. LKW*

      Bring Pat concrete examples of the issue and the result, as in for this email, I spent x hours fielding calls, correcting things, etc. and ask Pat to speak with Chris and perhaps work with the other three people in the office to review his work before it goes out to clients. Yes, it adds to your workload but a half hour review of an email may save 1 hour of fielding calls from customers.

    7. AnotherHRPro*

      I would transfer those calls to Chris (assuming there isn’t a reason you can’t). I understand that Chris is frustrating you, but only you can decide what bothers you. As have decided to leave and are actively looking for a job, I would focus on that. And each time I found Chris annoying, I would use that as a reminder that I need to send out another resume.

      Good luck with your job search!

    8. Artemesia*

      Any chance you can put through these calls to Chris or Pat? It doesn’t change until they feel the effect.

    9. anon for this*

      For the mental game on dealing with Chris – my therapist tells me I need to accept that some people aren’t logical and won’t change. She’s right and it’s going to take me years. I’m getting surprisingly good mileage out of repeating to myself “he can’t help it” when dealing with my Chris. It short circuits the frustration.

    10. As Close As Breakfast*

      I also work at a family-type business where the relationships range from sibling parental to spousal, and boy can it feel like tip toeing through a mine field sometimes. I’ve had occasion to deal with issues that have sprung up with one of the owners spouses, and have found it helpful to be emotionally detached. My suggestion is to approach Pat and state the facts of what is going on and then ask how Pat would like to you handle these situations. The key is to be as unemotional about it as possible and make only factual statements. So while you may want to say “people call in and I have no idea what to do because Chris sends ridiculously ineffective emails!” keep it straight to the point and try your hardest to keep any indication about how you feel about any of this out of it. Something more like “When I am fielding a call from a customer calling in, in response to an email from Chris, where I don’t have enough information to help them, how would you like me to handle that?” Just sort of lay the facts out there that Chris sends an email, people call in because of it, you don’t know enough about it to help efficiently… what would Pat like you to do? All of this runs the risk that Pat will sort of shrug it off and nothing will change, but sometimes it can lead to behind the scenes action that will make things easier for you. Good luck!

      2. always know the name of the game*

        This is really helpful. I think a combination of this and the suggestions above that I try to take on more of the responsibility for those mailings will help.

  6. Nervous Accountant*

    Is it normal to be asked a lot of questions about your company rather than your own skills & background?

    I went on an interview this week. I had a prep call w the recruiter the day before, so I was fully prepared. I just didn’t like it. I can’t place my finger on it but I m trying to trust my instincts here.

    1. The owner who I interviewed with started off asking a lot about my company. He wanted to know how their fee structure is, how they generate revenue, how much they charge clients etc. I was so thrown off by this. None of this was in the prep call, and I never had this at other interviews. He asked what sets my company apart from others…it felt like I was trying to sell my company to a potential client! It was like 75% company, 20% my background & experience.

    2. Benefits were discussed (he initiated and I just answered whatever he asked). PTO is great (goes up to 4 weeks) but insurance is only 25%. I’m not enthusiastic about that.

    3. He said that he’s gotten a few candidates with 10+ years of xperience from the recruiter, and they weren’t too great.

    4. The office was tiny and a lot of paper. I was told it’d be a small office (15-20) but this was even smaller than I anticipated. People seemed nice, the front desk/office manager was very nice, one guy let me in to the office, and OMGGGG THERE WAS A DOG (best part of the interview, no DAY, IMO). but it was still very small.

    I was told that he’s a super nice guy, very funny and nice and willing to teach, but all in all, the focus on my company and how they operate rather than my skills made me uncomfortable.

    The recruiter had instructed me to call him right after the interview, so I did. I told him I was unprepared about the company questions and that threw me off a lot for the rest of the interview since they were so unexpected. I also mentioned that it was smaller than I anticipated but the biggest deal breaker was the insurance–I told him I’d have to be offered at least $70k to take it.

    I’m dodging the recruiter but I have to get back to him. I don’t feel bad, at least I gave it a honest shot. I’m just super weirded out about the Qs about my company–is that normal?

    1. Blue Anne*

      That’s weird. It sounds like he was using the opportunity to find out information about a competitor?

      3. Beth Anne*

        That is what I was thinking. I’m like are you self-employed hiring a potential client or an employee? Seems like he’s trying to get inside info.

      4. Specialk9*

        So the interview was him asking you to divulge confidential proprietary information? (Skeptical head cock)

      5. Thlayli*

        Yeah he was using the interview as a way to do corporate espionage. Wouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t even a job at all!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If it was a second or third interview and they knew they wanted to hire you, they may take the opportunity to ask other questions. It may be a case where they wanted just preliminary information to understand if you worked in similar environments (company size/ structure stuff) and it may have run off the rails because the conversation was flowing so well.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        No this was the first one. And I just sent a note to the recruiter that I’m bowing out. Although I’m pretty sure it’s mutual so. At least I tried, no regrets!

    3. LKW*

      Agreed. In my company we have policy that these types of questions are verboten and if hired, a person can not use any methodology or business intelligence from prior employers. Small companies can be great – but they can also be really difficult if the culture is toxic. People can seem really nice, but that could be a show as everyone will be on their best behavior.

      If your spidey-sense is tingling… listen to it.

    4. Antilles*

      Not the way you’re describing it. Asking questions about your role in the overall company structure is absolutely reasonable, since titles are often hard to interpret from the outside and even within a given range, what you do can vary wildly. But what you’re talking about is ludicrous. I just don’t see any reasonable hiring-related use for knowing how OldJob charges clients or their revenue generation model.
      The only, only possible exception would be if he had some special out-of-the-ordinary model and wanted to use your OldJob as a point of comparison “So it sounds like you’ve had the usual dollars-per-hour structure, but here we have a fairly unique payment model where clients pay us by shipping raw iron ore which we transmute into gold, which is then sold on commodities markets. How do you feel your sales skills would fit in that model?” And even then, he should only be asking a couple lead-in questions to set up the topic, not spending “75% of the interview” on OldJob.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I think there’s a huge possibility that that was an element-trying to c how I fit in. But I was just taken aback by the “how do they make $$?” I HATE saying “I don’t know” in a work capacity but seriously, what the hell dows that have to do w me???

        1. AnotherHRPro*

          I don’t agree with the approach or the specific questions asked, but he could have been trying to assess your business acumen. The probes may have been to see how much you understood the industry and your current company. But it does sound a little sketchy. Although, sometime small companies do weird things when they are recruiting.

        2. Erin*

          Well…I’ve worked at software companies that are monthly recurring revenue ($X per month per client- think paying $9.99/mo for LinkedIn or whatever) and companies that do a license + maintenance (200k for a 3 year license + 10% annual maintenance).

          Public vs private companies are different too- quarter end is a BFD.

          It does impact lots of areas outside sales or finance- how you prioritize implementations, upgrades, client work, how you move mountains (all of you! Legal! Engineering! Marketing! Admin!) to get something in on Sept 30 vs Oct 1.

          So, depending on the department this role reports into, it could be insightful to know where a new employee is coming from in terms of understanding revenue impact of their work.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        And from what I know, theirs was the typical small CPA firm where they bill clients. My current company follows a different model. I can understand curiosity but it was still weird to me.

      3. Jillociraptor*

        Yeah, as described this seems pretty sketchy. I often ask questions in this family to understand the scope and complexity of a candidate’s role and make sure we’re speaking the same language (e.g. what “business development” means to someone in a small shop versus a large shop will vary a lot). But it’s really weird to have these kinds of questions without a ton of follow up about what it means for your role and skills.

    5. michelenyc*

      I had an interview once that all the hiring manager asked me about what it was like working for giant shoe company in Beaverton, Oregon. If I had ever met Michael Jordan and if not what athlete’s have a I met. I think he asked me 2 questions about my work experience. It was annoying and thankfully it was years ago.

    6. Nervous Accountant*

      Thanks all. I just got off the phone with the recruiter after texting him that I’m not pursuing the opportunity. He asked why I felt that way so I talked about my concerns…mostly that he was way too in to what my company does.
      (while I’m struggling to even trust my instincts, it’s harder for me to even say “I don’t get a great gut feeling from this”).

      He’s really trying hard for me to pursue it, and kept talking up the company, that he’s a great mentor, prickly (my word) at first but super nice once u get to know him. I really don’t want to take more time off form my job to do a second or third meeting.

      I’m pretty reasonable to a fault, but I’m still skeptical about pursuing this.

      He said he’d get back to me whenever they hear back from the client.

    7. lulu*

      Did you answer those questions? because honestly it feels like confidential information you shouldn’t be sharing, and it would be perfectly reasonable to say so (I’m thinking of the questions of fee structure, etc.)

      1. M is for Mulder*

        Agreed. Even if I didn’t have a confidentiality agreement, I would nope out of these questions based on pure professionalism.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Oh my god yes I answered the questions! It didn’t even occur to me that it was confidential. This was info that could easily be googled. Crap now I’m worried!

          1. Rachel in NYC*

            As long as its publically available information its fine but if any of it isn’t or you think its borderline, I’d consider mentioning it to someone you trust at your current employer. Just a ‘as you know I’ve been interviewing places and in the middle of an interview I got asked some weird questions. At the time I just thought it was weird but afterwords it was pointed out that I may have unintentionally shared confidential information.’

            But really stop and think about your answers before you jump the gun.

    8. Nervous Accountant*

      Okay third update–recruiter got back to me with “great news!”. At this point I’m sure I dont want the job but he’s being pretty adamant. He’s a super nice guy and I dont’ want to lose him as a contact. oh goodness I don’t know what todo and im freaking out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        First thing is to breathe. Then listen to what the recruiter has to say. It could be something totally unrelated. Or it could be something that fills in the gaps and all of this makes sense. Just go one step at a time.

      2. Lab Monkey*

        Your no counts.

        You already told the recruiter you’re taking yourself out of consideration. He can’t make you take the job. “Thanks, but as I said before, I’m no longer interested.”

    9. Chaordic One*

      I’ve run into situations like this, but my former employer was a very odd organization and I honestly think that most people didn’t really know how it operated or even just what they did, so I didn’t mind answering their questions. They seemed more motivated by idle curiosity than an attempt to steal valuable operations knowledge.

      If it was at a place that could be considered a direct competitor to your present employer, then, yeah, it was an improper question.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I had a weird interview like that a few months back. The recruiter scheduled a call with this person they said was basically the company “main investor” who had a lot of say about how the company was run. Odd, as I was not interviewing for any kind of executive position (more like middle management).
      During the call, the investor guy asked much more about my CURRENT company, including profits, products and a host of other things I’m not even involved in, rather than my skills. It got very uncomfortable. At one point, I even said that finance was not my area of expertise, but the information was publicly available on our website. I felt like I was being milked for insider trading information or something.

      Needless to say, I didn’t get a callback for that job.

    11. redredrose*

      I know for a fact my company will interview sales guys regularly just to try to see what is going on in the market, and if they find a good one they might make an offer, but I’m not even sure there is a real position available. They were fishing for information about your current company, but there may or may not have been a position available a theirs.

  7. Does this count as ironic?*

    You would not believe what happened to me last weekend.

    The company I work for merged a few months ago with another company. There’s been some clashing at the executive level. We couldn’t figure out if our CEO was trying to get fired for a payout or something, because the interactions were soooo beyond professional norms.

    So I decide to stop by the office on Saturday. I had impulse purchased a little cactus that would be great for my office. Makes sense to just plop it on my desk quickly, right? Who wants to carry a cactus around for another 10 hours? I work in a busy downtown area and it’s a lot of time to take public transportation back out of the city to go to anyone’s home. I have a key to the office and we were right there…

    The whole group came up with me. And walked in on the CEO packing his desk.

    So. Awkward.

    2. karou*

      Something similar happened to me years ago. I was working late (7pm-ish) when HR brought in someone recently fired to pack up her desk. I left quickly and I think I managed to sneak out without them realizing I was there. I believe HR/management now pack up people’s desks and mail them their belongings now instead of bringing them back when they’ve been let go.

      1. Antilles*

        That seems like a really iffy practice. There’s just so many things that could be problematic.
        >What happens if someone hoards a ton of stuff in their desk? Does HR spend time to sort it and try to figure out what’s “my stuff” versus “company paid-for stuff”? Or do they just ship everything and eat the UPS bill and possible costs of replacing stuff that’s actually owned by the company?
        >What happens if someone has Company Confidential documents like strategy plans or financial information mixed in with their belongings? Yes, yes, your policy states that all documents should be filed in accordance with blah blah blah, but you know that doesn’t actually happen.
        >What happens when someone claims that Personal Belonging X was at their desk but it wasn’t included?
        Heck, for that matter, what happens if something actually does go missing (either via theft or lost delivery)?
        >What happens if something is damaged or broken when you’re packing it up and mailing it?
        Escorting an employee to their desk and letting them pack it up (watched by an HR rep, of course) is an hour of awkwardness, but it just seems so much better from a risk management perspective.

        1. Brandy*

          I was let for from a job and before me a friend was, and she had some CDs and other stuff missing. I knew my time was coming and had just a little bit at my desk but my stapler and tape dispenser are mine, I put the free address labels on them. I was allowed to grab my stuff and grabbed that bit up and walked out. A job back, the company was doing lay offs, it eventually folded. And a co-worker told everyone that I took stuff that wasn’t mine, like the stapler and tape dispenser.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          When I got fired from OldJob, they said something about sending me my stuff, but I insisted they stand right there while I packed up every damn thing. The manager (not mine; she couldn’t be arsed to fire me in person) and the HR person were decent folks, but I was not going to risk losing something I wanted to keep, if they didn’t know it was mine or just decided not to bother packing it.

          Also, and I admit this was a little petty, I wanted them to feel the awkward as hard and as long as I could possibly make it. The manager helped me carry my stuff down to my car and gave me a hug and that was that.

          1. Emily S.*

            Goodness gracious. I think I would do the same thing — I’ve got a lot of photos, multiple plants, and tons of stuff, and I wouldn’t want it to be manhandled!

          2. Murphy*

            I wish I’d had the guts to do that. (And my manager did the same thing! She left the building early and had grandboss and the head of HR fire me.)

    4. kristin*

      Oh man, this is so awkward! I still cringe when I think about a slightly less weird situation. I’d stayed lateish at work (only maybe 30-40 minutes) and was on the phone withe a coworker who was walking through an issue with me when my then-manager walked up to me and told me to hang up the phone immediately. Turns out one of my co-workers was being let go and had just been told. They needed me out of the area so she could gather her stuff.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I once had a co-worker who was fired and not allowed to remove the personal items from her desk. They mailed her some of her things, but she didn’t get back everything. Most people would have let it go, but she ended up successfully suing her former employer in small claims court for something like $800.

  8. Murphy*

    I have a question about something one of my co-workers told me her manager said.

    My co-worker Jane suffered a bad head injury resulting in several weeks out of work, FMLA accommodations, etc. She’s doing better and has been back at work for a while. After returning to work, Jane felt she was still experiencing some cognitive deficits as a result of her injury and wanted to let her manager Lucinda know that she was still having some issues. Apparently Lucinda cut Jane off mid-sentence, saying she “didn’t want to know” what was going on “because I could use it against you.” Is this normal? I know Jane and I know that she can be an over-sharer, but I would think a manager would want to at least know her employee was having some difficulties. And I’m not sure what Lucinda meant by “I could use it against you.”

    1. Infinity Anon*

      Does the company have HR? Maybe she should find out if she can get official accommodations for it.

    2. Blue Anne*

      It sounds like she was concerned that if she knew about the medical issue, and disciplined Jane for poor performance or something, Jane could accuse her of discrimination?

      1. Anna*

        I think Lucinda was saying SHE could use it against Jane, not the other way around? It sounds to me like Lucinda was maybe trying to avoid an implicit bias situation if she knew too much about Jane’s ongoing issues.

    4. fposte*

      I think Lucinda either doesn’t understand the implications here or said the opposite of what she meant. She’s asking for trouble if she doesn’t get some clear protocols about how she’s going to handle Jane’s disability.

    5. Read2muchintoit*

      You know I could not read this question without picturing Lucinda and Jane standing in the vandalized dollhouse kitchen while they had this discussion. And Jane’s head injury was a nasty chip out of her wooden head!

    6. Same here*

      We had the same situation at our workplace – Arya was in a car accident and suffered a concussion. She was off for a week and has medical accommodations (private office instead of a cube, low lighting, blue light filter on her monitor) but she also feels like she’s experience cognitive defects. I know our HR offered her an altered work schedule, more time off if she needs it, etc. She’s had to fill out a a few forms and has kept both her manager and HR in the loop with no issues. We’re not in the US though.

    7. Been there*

      I can kind of see this. Although it seems a bit awkward. I don’t know how many times I’ve gently cut off an employee who is hell bent on giving me their medical details, ones that they should be sharing with HR. Although I tend to say things like “Before you go any further, you are not obligated to share this with me” “That’s ok, you don’t need to explain. You should contact HR to discuss the details and the process for leave if needed”

      I think what Lucinda was doing was saying that she didn’t want to know any of the details because if it was something that required ADA or any short term ‘fit for duty’ requirements, those details need to be handled by HR. If neither of those applied, then Lucinda wants to remain ‘in the dark’ so that she’s not influenced one way or another by Jane’s medical conditions. In other words she’s trying to stay neutral, albeit awkwardly.

      1. Rakket*

        Yeah, I was a manager at a company that had very VERY strict rules about who could know about employees’ health issues. If my employees mentioned anything beyond a mild cold I had to redirect them to HR. Realistically it was occasionally awkward but probably good? They tended to hire young managers and I don’t think most of us had the experience to handle potential FMLA or accommodations with any finesse.

    8. nacho*

      I was told once that I wasn’t allowed to tell my boss why I was calling out sick, just that I was sick. I can’t remember the reason, but it was something legal sounding.

  9. Non-Profit Know-Nothing*

    Anyone have good resources for professional development workshop design? Maybe specifically geared toward non-profits?

    Our nonprofit does some of its own research, and we want to share our learning with stakeholders…but we’re afraid we might secretly suck at it. We’ve got a pretty good grasp on basic adult education principles (don’t lecture at them, allow them to learn from peers in the room, etc.), but we think we’re falling short on providing really innovative/exciting/cool learning opportunities. What are the best practices for designing a one-day workshop curriculum? Who would know about this–organizations, consultants, etc?

    For context, say our organization works to support teapot makers in Texas. Part of our work involves learning about, say, the top 5 challenges teapot makers in the region are currently facing, and finding out what creative ways the most successful teapot makers have come up with to address these challenges. We want to share this information with other teapot makers via live, in-person workshops (usually about 30 attendees each) so they can better address their own challenges. We have virtual workshops, too, but we’re really focused on our brick-and-mortar offerings right now.

    What resources are out there to help our nonprofit design awesome workshops?? Also, cost for these resources is not an issue–we’ve got plenty of money to throw at this problem.

    1. cereal killer*

      Not a best practice. But you might want to check out catchafire.org. They pair non-profits with experts in a variety of fields who volunteer. You can set up a projects but also 1 hour phone calls with experts who can talk you through some of your questions.

    2. zora*

      Most of the places I know are regional, so it depends on where you are located. But look for “Nonprofit Centers” and another search term you want is “Training for Trainers”. There are definitely places out there that teach educational design, etc.

      The one I know is CompassPoint Nonprofit Services in the SF Bay Area but like I said, there might be one in your geographical area that is better for you. Also look for a college near you that offers classes, Portland State University, for example, has a Nonprofit Institute that offers programs and courses for nonprofit professionals. And ask around the nonprofit networks in your area, too, to see if there are any particular organizations or individual consultants they have had a good experience with. There are definitely consultants out there who specialize in developing educational programs, but I don’t know any personally.

      Good luck!

    3. SL #2*

      We’ve worked with Global Learning Partners a few times and enjoyed their workshops. A lot of their stuff focuses on adult education theory but they’re very good at teaching innovative curriculum design as well.

    4. Sam Foster*

      Most people are terrible at interviewing and they generally receive almost no training on how to interview. My experience after decades in the field is that interviewing practices are about as effective as a roulette wheel.

  10. Not a Stark*

    A friend of my was recently complaining about how one of their new starters is turning out to be…completely incompetent. She works in a fairly competitive industry and rejected candidates get sent emails with the ‘we’ve had many high-quality applications’ line.

    It makes me wonder where the disconnect is between the hiring process and the work itself. My friend wasn’t involved in the hiring process herself, but surely the hiring committee would’ve assessed candidates according to their suitability for the role so how do they manage to fall so wide of the mark? Okay I know there’s no foolproof hiring method that would rule out bad hires, but this certainly isn’t the first time I’ve heard stories of people that just made me think…how did you get hired?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      How did this candidate look on paper? I’ve certainly seen my share of cases in which a candidate looks great on paper, takes a good game (interviews well)… and is just a total incompetent. May even mean well, but just can’t handle the work.

    2. LKW*

      Some people are really good at the schmoozing but not at the actual doing. They exaggerate on their resumes and then describe what OTHER people did on projects (or what they should have done). Or they say “I was responsible for…” without including “but didn’t actually do that and other people did the actual work.” When the rubber meets the road, they have no idea how to load balance a project plan, create a comprehensive on-line marketing strategy or whatever the job demands.

      1. Manders*

        Yes, I’ve known some people who were great at schmoozing their way into jobs and terrible at keeping them. One or two were probably outright lying about what they had done, but I think most of them genuinely thought they could do the work and didn’t realize how much handholding they’d really had on previous projects.

    3. Dotty*

      It depends what the hiring committee is asking/doing in the interview. My company asks a LOT of generic questions – it’s not hard for someone to rehearse answers to these and some people are just good at talking, some of those questions are fine but by themselves they don’t tell you whether someone will be good at the job. One time when I was hiring for a new analyst in my team I went off-script and asked several “what if” questions specifically relevant to our work to see how they’d handle scenarios my team have to handle in their everyday – it worked great to help me separate out the “good talkers” from the one who could perhaps best do the job but HR gave me a stern talking to after for not sticking to the pre-determined questions.

    4. Pineapple Incident*

      Recently my group was able to fire someone exactly like this. She had jazzed up her resume to make her past experience look more involved and more supervisory than it was, and she had way less ability to rely on systems than she’d indicated. She also turned out to be a major blamer, like every mistake she made was “well I did that because ‘so-and-so’ told me _____.” She’d lie and throw the people she managed under the bus; we were giving her the kind of feedback generally given to interns about how not to put off your coworkers and subordinates, which was not well-received.

      The problem during her interviews was that it was a busy time, and not coordinated well, so 2 of the major decision-makers only met her for a little while. Each of them said “if Dr. Whoever is fine with her, then so am I,” without realizing how big of an opportunity they missed to see her red flags. The team she was supposed to supervise met her, and said they found her style abrasive. Over the 3 months that she was here, every piece of feedback my office got about this hire included comments about her off-putting communication style and general rudeness.

      1. esra (also a Canadian)*

        Ugh, we’re going through that right now. We’re about to hire someone my VP loves but I have reservations about. See you in six months on this same topic, AAM commentariat.

    5. Anyway*

      Maybe he knows someone in the company.

      I’ve had an interview for a super competitive position today (one of the 2 most prestigious consulting companies in the world). In most consulting companies the decision whom to hire is – at least officially – taken based on several rounds of interviews, several tests and case studies candidates need to solve. Today, but also before that, during interviews I often encountered people who simply didn’t seem very bright, to use an euphemism.

      I’ve already experienced interviewers making mistakes in their case studies. I remember this one guy I tried to convince he solved the problem wrong (the answer was numerical, no space for discussions). I explained him why the solution was wrong. Still he spent several minutes stressing it was correct (then he admitted his mistake – I then got a rejection for “lacking maths skills”). Or, like today, interviewers that seem… Let’s say, not particularly bright… Who need plenty of explanation to understand a simple description of a situation.

      And no, I’m not saying so because I’m angry I haven’t been accepted. I’m already in the field.

    6. AnotherHRPro*

      Some people just interview well. And some hiring managers do not do a good job at asking probing and follow-up questions.

    7. Artemesia*

      This is why in hiring you really have to see work product and have candidates demonstrate their skills. We never hired a person where teaching was their primary role without viewing them teaching a class for us; we never hired a researcher without a research presentation on their work. (and most faculty types had to do both although the weighting was different depending on the role) Soft ware developers always screen for on the spot coding demonstrations. IN selecting for a leadership training programs among employees, we ran simulations of problem solving activities so we could identify people who could advance a group’s performance. It is easy to SAY what you ‘would do’, but harder to SHOW what you can do.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I was once involved in hiring for my replacement, and one of the finalists looked great on paper, and the other looked less great on paper. The one who looked good on paper could not find her way around an Excel spreadsheet, and spreadsheets were a huge part of the job. I didn’t even pose it as a skills test (though everything in an interview is always being observed). I just said “This is the sort of thing you would be doing” and then had her take my chair and walk through the steps. I was actually giving instructions, so it wasn’t about “Do you know how to do this exact task?” It was more like “Do you feel comfortable navigating around?” Even something as silly as selecting all the filled cells or all the filled cells in a column can tell you a lot about a person’s comfort with Excel.

    8. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hiring isn’t a perfect science, and way too few employers use exercises and simulations to actually see candidates in action. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been excited about a candidate, and then when I have them do a short simulation of the work they’d be doing on the job, they were … just not good. It’s crucial to test people out like that, and most employers still don’t.

      1. oranges & lemons*

        As a candidate, I also wish more employers would do this, since I’m much better at my actual job than I am at schmoozing.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Hell yeah. I got OldJob because I aced the editing test they sent. I did well on the interview too, thanks to copious amounts of reading AAM, but later my boss told me my test just blew everybody else’s out of the water.

          1. Rachel in NYC*

            I got CurrentJob because of my sample excel document…my boss told me that after I’d been in the position for maybe a year.

    9. Turquoisecow*

      Some people interview really well.

      A few years back a woman came in to interview for a mindless data entry role. The manager was so blown away by her competence that she felt the woman would be bored in the mindless data entry role, and recommended her for a job under my boss. This role involved data entry, but a lot less mindless, plenty of thinking on your feet type things. My boss was also blown away.

      She turned out to absolutely suck at the job. She asked the same questions over and over while never seeming to grasp the responses. Nuance was completely lost on her. She had to be practically hand held through almost every task, even a year or more later. Both bosses were completely confused.

    10. Clever Name*

      This happened to my team. We hired a guy to be our teapot identification expert, and over the course of the next 6 months or so, we realized he was not only not an expert, he couldn’t even identify teapots independently. The most reasonable explanation is that he flat-out lied about the nature and length of his experience. He was also condescending and defensive, and all around difficult to work with. He was put on a PIP and ultimately fired. And I heard through the rumor mill that his petition for unemployment was denied, which in our state is highly unusual (the courts typically rule in favor of workers). Our error was not checking references (I know).

    11. an apple a day*

      I was just thinking about this the other day- it’s almost the same issue you get in education, where learning isn’t always correlated to test-taking abilities. That’s how you end up with terrible situations where teachers aren’t allowed to deviate from test-prep year round in schools that are really scores-focused.

      As someone who is much better at doing a job than finding/interviewing for jobs… Well, it’s part of why I’m not in the field I got my Master’s in. Sigh.

    12. Sam Foster*

      Most people are terrible at interviewing and they generally receive almost no training on how to interview. My experience after decades in the field is that interviewing practices are about as effective as a roulette wheel.

    13. FTW*

      I work in one of those highly competitive industries, and we have a lot of great candidates, but there are mis-hires.

      Generally it is because there are issues that are difficult to pick up on in interviews. Some of the main issues that crop up include:
      – lack of receptiveness to feedback (this can come across in questions, but not always)
      – limited ability to figure out ambiguous problems by themselves
      – inability to identify and flag common sense issues in their work (e.g., your analysis shows a -50% profit margin on the product line over the past year. Yes, the calculations are correct, but did you consider questioning the data?)

  11. Tableau Wizard*

    Are there any great tools out there to help a group of facilitators share best practices, ask questions to each other, and get updates from their leaders?

    I’m helping organize a large training effort where 125 trainers will be training 18K staff over the next 6 months in groups of about 100.

    We’d like to have a place to share learning and best practices among the trainers/facilitators. Somewhere that they can ask questions and the leaders can provide answers. Something that’s secure but also easy to use and organized.

    Sharepoint has been suggested, but are there other good options out there? Any tips for sharepoint or pitfalls to avoid?

    1. LKW*

      I’ve seen Yammer used very well. Everyone is encouraged to register with a Yammer group and then the thread is monitored by a few key people. The challenge is when it gets repetitive and the same problems are being brought up over and over. That’s a sign that you need to update your training material and any associated job aids.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Some time ago, one of the sponsored posts here was a competitor to SharePoint, with the claim it was easier to use and a lot cheaper. Alison only has sponsored posts that she has used, approves of, so that also could be an option. I’ll go see if I can find a link.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Wow, I’d love to hear more about this as it rolls out. I lead a training/facilitation team and would love to learn from this experience!

    5. Product person*

      If you can host a solution, moodle.org is open source and can be installed for free. It’s a great e-learning environment I’ve been used for 15 years to do exactly what you say. You can have forums separated by topic where leaders can post updates, have a library of resources, and organize content in courses if you like. Very powerful and easy to configure. You can download it and install in your hosting service, and in the case of some hosting providers, even install automatically from the control panel like you can do with WordPress.

    6. justusingsomewords*

      Sharepoint is a standard toolset, and it’s certainly powerful. However, it has its pain points. It’s considered difficult to use and often not very user friendly. I actually work for a company that creates a variety of digital workspace tools, including an application to build Sharepoint pages in a drag-and-drop fashion, and it’s amazing to me that it’s not actually built into Sharepoint itself. It is very de facto standard in the industry if you don’t mind the learning curve or if you use an additional product (or products) to make that easier.

      Given the short time frame of the effort, you may want to consider using a combination of technologies. You could, for example, combine Slack (for communication) and Box (for file storage)..there’s an integration that allows them to talk to each other.

  12. TSG*

    So I know this blog has talked about for-profit colleges before and why they’re not great, hoping for some insight into if this situation is just, less than ideal, or potentially pretty bad –

    My SO decided to go back to school to get a different degree because his current career path was feeling really unfulfilling. He talked about it for about a year before he finally decided he couldn’t keep doing what he was doing. There were two schools in our area with the program he wanted to do, and one’s deadlines had already passed, so he applied to the other and got in.

    However, he mentioned to me this week that he found out it’s a for-profit college, though he didn’t seem to fully grasp what that meant. It’s not one of those big-name for profits or part of a chain, it sounds like a typical school and has a physical campus in our city and reputable professors, doesn’t seem to have anything shady about it online. And one of his mentors in the field is on the board at this school and recommended it to him in the first place. They boast high certification/job-placement rates for their students, though only a fraction of the people who start the program actually pass it…

    But, knowing what I know about for-profit schools and how they are perceived in the working world, I’m wondering if he’s pouring money (this also explains why this program was so much more than the other school’s) into a degree that’s not actually going to help him once he graduates. And of course, they don’t allow the transfer of credits so if he went to a new school he’d have to start all over when he’s already got one year done.

    So are all for-profits going to look bad to future employers? This is also a smaller program to get a quicker degree in the field so he can start working it sooner, but will eventually want to go back to school to get a more advanced degree to move up in the industry, and now I’m wondering if this will make it harder for him to seem credible when he applies to grad schools.

    I haven’t said anything to him about for-profit colleges because I don’t want to worry him unnecessarily, but wondering if this could be a bad situation for him that I should warn him about?

    1. Infinity Anon*

      It doesn’t sound like it would have the same stigma as the bigger ones. If it is actually a challenging curriculum and not just degrees (or certificates) for money, then it is probably fine. Can he look into other universities in the area and see if the credits can transfer? If other universities are willing to accept transfer credits that would say a lot and open up the possibility of getting the actual degree from another university if he is concerned.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      And one of his mentors in the field is on the board at this school and recommended it to him in the first place.

      I wouldn’t risk it. That’s years (or even just year) of his life he won’t get back… on top of the tuition or loans. There must be non-profit universities that offer the program he’s looking for, no?

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is he planning to stay in this area? It sounds like, at least locally, the school has the respect of employers. But who knows if that will transfer out of your area.

      Also, if the credits don’t transfer (I’m confused about your phrasing – it sounds like you’re saying the for-profit school doesn’t allow you to transfer those credits to other schools), it may not be accepted by graduate schools.

    4. fposte*

      It’s possible this is a for-profit that doesn’t have the local hiring stigma some others do; the way to find that out is to ask in the field where he’s trying to get hired (and ask somebody who *isn’t* associated with the school) what a degree from that place would do and how it stacked up against other degrees. It’s hard to say from here since we don’t know the school, the field, and the area, but the fact that it’s considerably more expensive is not a good sign.

      It almost certainly will make it harder for him to seem credible when he applies to grad schools.

      1. serenity*

        Also, many (not all, but many) for-profits are nationally accredited but lack regional accreditation. So if he wants to get an advanced degree after this one, it might be a significant deal-breaker for him.

        When I worked in admissions, there were a couple candidates apply to our graduate program we declined admission to because their undergraduate degree (BFA or BA) were from a nationally-accredited for-profit whose accreditation we did not recognize.

        1. fposte*

          Even regional accreditation isn’t always good enough–if it’s not a rigorous program for a master’s, for instance, the grad program may want them to get that school’s own master’s before proceeding to the PhD.

          Honestly, I wouldn’t spend money, let alone what sounds like a fairly significant amount of money, on a second bachelor’s degree without some clear indications from the local field that it’s a game changer, and I’d investigate its effects on grad school applications in the field as well if that was something I was thinking about down the road.

          1. serenity*

            Oh absolutely, I agree that the program’s real or perceived lack of rigor is tremendously important as well (and the higher cost should be considered too. There’s just little justification I can see for pursuing this path).

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, I was just elaborating on the height of the hurdle here. I don’t want to swear this won’t get him where he wants because there could well be local/field exceptions, but I’m pretty dubious.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      When I was looking at certificate programs, I called the employers I wanted to work for and asked how they felt about the program I was considering. They can tell you right away if it is legit.

    6. Pineapple Incident*

      Depending on the field he’s in/degree program, he should investigate whether the school’s program is accredited with the important associations in that field. For example, for public health, attending a Council on Education for Public Health (CEPH)-accredited school is important.

      If that’s the case, perhaps this would outweigh the fact that the school is for-profit. I would still be wary of these programs- some of them are truly NOT up to par, despite their promising stats and PR to the contrary.

    7. OhNo*

      This might be a situation where asking around among your professional contacts (or his professional contacts) will give you a better idea of how this particular school is perceived in the community. I know there have been one or two local for-profit schools in my area that were actually pretty well regarded in particular fields, so that might be the case here as well.

      However, if going back to school for a graduate degree is the goal, it might be better to drop the for-profit one and just wait until the nonprofit opens up admissions again. Working in an academia-adjacent field, I know that so many admissions offices for grad schools really look down on for-profit degrees, so that could have a significant impact on his future plans. It really depends on how important the opportunity to get a higher degree someday is to him.

    8. Qestia*

      I’ve worked in higher ed my whole career (+15 years). The fact they don’t transfer credits sounds very shady – I’ve not heard of that before. If grad school is his ultimate goal, it’s unlikely this for profit degree would help with that.

      Even more important than whether an institution is for profit- it is regionally accredited? If not run, don’t walk away from it.

      Finally – if he already has an undergraduate degree and knows he wants to go to grad school- why doesn’t he just apply to grad school? It’s unlikely a second bachelors would help his grad school application even if the first is in a different field. If the grad program requires certain undergrad courses he’s better off taking those individual courses (even at a community college) than go for a whole new degree

      1. Natalie*

        Your last paragraph is the most important one. This just seems like a huge waste of money and time, absent some compelling reason to do a second bachelors. I just did all of the BA accounting coursework at my local university and if I had gone full time it would have taken maybe 3 semesters tops, rather than 4 years.

      2. Infinity Anon*

        The credits thing is weird. They don’t get to determine whether other schools will accept the credits unless they refuse to give transcripts. If no other school accepts those credits, it is a red flag.

    9. Artemesia*

      The most important thing is can they demonstrate job placement. Sometimes not great institutions still have good local reputations and connections to the workplace. I would want to really press on placement, on talking with recent graduates in the area and for how they connect grads with opportunities especially in the local market.

      If the place doesn’t have lots of resources and information on this — I’d be chary of spending my money.

    10. Elizabeth H.*

      “They boast high certification/job-placement rates for their students, though only a fraction of the people who start the program actually pass it…”

      That is the key part for me. Don’t do it. High attrition is an incredibly bad sign. It means that either it’s a bad program, it is too expensive and people stop being able to afford it, they don’t effectively support students, or something else bad. Also, you say it is expensive. Is it a second bachelor’s degree or a post-bac or some kind of certificate program? To be blunt I think it sounds like a very bad idea and should be avoided. If he really needs and wants more education in order to enter a new field, he should apply to an actual master’s or post-bac or whatever program at a not for profit school.

    11. poppunkcat*

      I work at a state university, and when we accept credits from nationally accredited schools, they are usually only accepted as electives. Has he looked into online programs? The school I work for, and many other regionally accredited schools offer online classes now and the diploma doesn’t make that distinction.

  13. D.W.*

    Two things:

    First, I really enjoy the camaraderie on AAM. I feel like there is a community of strong “acquaintances” here. I mean, Free Meerkats invited us to her 20th Anniversary in Las Vegas! Which I totally would attend if I were to be in the area.

    I have been reading AAM for a few years, and it has always been a great place to find workplace advice, but as I’ve been actively commenting, it has become a space where I celebrate, encourage, and commiserate with you all on various occasions (purchasing a home, weddings, anniversaries, promotions, new jobs, graduations, lost jobs, family strains, mental health check-ins, etc). This has become a great source of respite for a lot of people, and I really enjoy being part of this community.

    Recognizing that the commentariat runs the gamut on the spectrum of demographics, there are few spaces, on the internet and in “real” life, where you can find such a large, supportive community.

    Thanks for making AAM a great place to be!

    Second, does anyone know where I can find a 5″ or 6″ steel round dough cutter or mousse ring? I have been using a bowl to cut crust for turnovers and pasties, but I really want a tool for cutting dough, and I cannot find the appropriate size! I understand that it’s a unique size, but there has to be one out there somewhere.

    2. AnnaleighUK*

      I just asked Fiancé and he said ‘Search for Ateco dough cutters, they are lots of different sizes’. Being a chef I assume he knows! I accept no responsibility for if these suck, by the way! Good luck!

    4. Spooky*

      There are several tutorials online for making your own cookie cutters–I’m guessing dough cutters would be similar? It’s actually really easy to get the metal at a hardware store to make your own. If not, there are lots of etsy shops that make custom cookie cutters–you could probably get one of them to make you one!

    6. Emily S.*

      Fellow baker here! I’ve had good results with Ateco steel dough cutters – which I’ve purchased from Amazon, and also the cookware store Sur la Table. I use them in smaller sizes for scones. (I believe they’re also used by professional bakers/pastry chefs.)

      Here’s an Amazon link for a 6-inch round Ateco dough cutter, in stainless steel. From there, you can search for other sizes.
      https://www.amazon.com/Ateco-14406-6-Inch-Stainless-Cutter/dp/B0000VLEZ4/

    7. Free Meerkats*

      I mean, Free Meerkats invited us to her 20th Anniversary in Las Vegas!

      His… ;-)

      It went well, had some friends who live here show up. She’s a professional photographer, so I handed her my camera and we got great shots. I’ll share after we get home and I can get them off the camera. The pastor who did the original wedding has retired, and the one who did the 10th renewal wasn’t in, so we got the “new” guy who’s only been there 14 years.

      Now just relaxing, eating too much, and hardly gambling at all.

  14. Should I call?*

    I got a call from an in-house recruiter on Tuesday morning about scheduling a phone interview, I missed it, but I called her back within an hour and left a voicemail. Still haven’t heard back. Should I check in again today? Part of me figures that isn’t too pushy, and I want to make sure I get a chance to have an interview scheduled, but I don’t want to look bad either.

      1. Should I call?*

        I decided to call (because I’ve had so many recruiters bail after I miss a phone call, it’s just like… eh, what the hell), and it went straight the voicemail so I left another message. At least now I can stop thinking about it! Nothing else to do but move on, it’ll work or it won’t.

  15. Not Today Satan*

    I’m a new manager and today I had a really tough conversation and I’m proud of how I handled it. I had found out that an employee (who has only been managed by me for a month, had someone good before that for a few months, but before that had basically not been managed at all for years) had been doing something unacceptable.

    Before our meeting, I studious read the How to Win Friends and Influence People wiki summary. I know it’s kinda cheesy but I actually find its principles to be really good. I also tend to be more of a “fire and brimstone” thing is right/this is wrong type of person, so it’s extra helpful for me.

    Anyway she came into the meeting ranting and raving about how there were all these reasons why she thought the management team didn’t respect her and the rest of the team. The reasons were not based in any sort of healthy thought- she basically found everything to evidence that she wasn’t respected. It annoyed me, and I did not find her behavior to be appropriate, but as an anxiety sufferer myself I thought I recognized anxiety as the root of most of it.

    So I fought my urge to defend myself, kept going back to the HTWF principles, and walked her through the reasons for why management does what we do. I assured her I wouldn’t hold what she has done in the past against her but shared my expectations for what she needs to do going forward.

    By the end she felt a lot better and I was proud of myself that I stuck to my principles/message without being combative.

    Just wanted to share a small victory!

    2. Meg*

      Congrats! I don’t even know you, but I’m proud of you — that sounds like a really difficult challenge that you handled so well!

    3. Liane*

      HTWF is a great resource. It probably sounds “cheesy” to us today because it was written in the 30s or 40s. My dad took the actual course and swore by it. He owned his own business and I have met few others who could get along so well with people of very diverse backgrounds.
      I have read it several times myself and need to reread it.

    4. Antilles*

      Before our meeting, I studious read the How to Win Friends and Influence People wiki summary. I know it’s kinda cheesy but I actually find its principles to be really good.
      If you don’t have the actual book, I’d highly recommend buying it and reading it. The examples he uses are dated (obviously), but the principles are timeless. Individuals can change; human beings don’t.
      Also, grats. Always celebrate the small victories; they’re what give you the confidence to win bigger victories later.

    5. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Great work!! As difficult as those kinds of conversations can be, IME, they are ALWAYS worth it!!

    7. Happy Lurker*

      Congrats. We also had a situation this week where all of my AAM reading has really paid off. I was able to see a situation clearly. That was only possible because of this group. It was a situation of WTF? Reminiscent of some letters we have seen here.
      Before AAM I would have gone back and forth over the emotional terrain of it and probably made the wrong suggestion. I put my AAM hat on and was able to make an almost guilt free decision.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      This is an investment. It will take time, but someone will confide in her about blah, blah, blah and she will say, “Go talk to our boss. Boss will actually try to help you through this.”

      And then your rumor mill starts, but it is working FOR you. People know that you listen and you are a thinking person.
      Your efforts here will pay you back many times over. Well done on that.

  16. Bend & Snap*

    Last week I posted about interviewing guilt because I love my boss. And a bunch of commenters advised against staying at a job because of a boss.

    Today I say DING DING DING because my department reorganized this week and I have a new boss I don’t like and a new VP I’ve never met.

    So please wish me luck in this interview cycle!

  17. DepartmentReOrg*

    Does anyone have any advice about navigating this potentially tricky situation? I joined my current company about 18 months ago and haven’t been able to do the work I was hired to do despite being the only one here with expertise in my area. This has been because our two-person department has been structured such that I am helping my coworker with all of our department’s workload (they’ve been acting as team lead and pick and choose their assignments) rather than us focusing on our individual areas of expertise. Management realizes this is a problem and we are soon going to be given new titles and actual job descriptions dividing up our areas. I’m anticipating that my coworker is going to be upset by this as they have a strong interest in my work specialty but no degree in it and lack the experience/knowledge I have (and it shows). We have developed a warm, friendly rapport and I’m not sure how to handle this. We sit right by each other in an open air environment so if there is tension it’s going to be very awkward. Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? Any advice on pitfalls to avoid or how to ensure we continue to work well together?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t been in that exact situation, but I think you should be prepared for a lot of griping about management’s decision from your co-worker to you. You will then be in an awkward situation, because you agree with management’s decision, but your co-worker will probably feel you’re the only one who could potentially be a sympathetic ear. I would probably just listen and not necessarily commiserate but not shut it down either.

    2. OtterB*

      Can things be set up so your coworker has a chance to learn from you about the work specialty they are interested in? In a 2-person department, even if you each have your own specialty, I would think there would be a certain amount of cross-training for backup anyway.

      1. DepartmentReOrg*

        Yes, and that’s kind of happening already. Ever since I got here, my coworker does the work that is better suited for me to be doing and asks for my suggestions for improvement. They don’t seem to have improved at doing these things over time, though. It’s holding the company back, hence the need to change the structure. You’re right, though, we will absolutely still have to back each other up. I’m just nervous they’re going to feel like they’re being demoted although that’s not what’s happening. I know they were already feeling a little threatened by my arrival to the company and I’ve worked hard to develop a good relationship with them. Also, they are an overall lovely person, so I guess I feel…guilty(?) that they may not take it well.

        1. AnotherHRPro*

          You need to remember that you are not the one deciding work allocation here. Your manager is. Be nice and pleasant to your co-worker and if she complains to you I would recommend that she bring up her concerns with the manager.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            This. Hopefully management does a good job explaining this to your coworker. You can redirect her concerns to your boss. If things get too much you can tell your boss that CW is having issues with the change and ask the boss to help again.

            I’d caution you that maybe CW is perceived as not carrying their weight at all. While it is fine to have some concern, don’t get caught in a spot where you are defending the CW to your boss. Instead repeatedly redirect your cohort to discussing matters with the boss. If need be say something like, “I don’t rule the world, while I do understand your concerns there is nothing I can do to fix it. This is a conversation that is best to have with our boss.”

    3. Clever Name*

      Honestly, your coworker’s reaction to a management decision made above your level is not yours to manage. I understand why it may be awkward, but any awkwardness would be on her and not on you. You have done nothing other than know things she does not.

    4. Shellesbelles*

      I just went through this and it did not go well. It didn’t help that there was an age divide (I’m significantly younger, but much more skilled in this specific area). We had a couple of really tense meetings with the higher ups that devolved into this coworker shouting at me and our bosses. She also sent a really unhinged email to everyone basically trashing me and saying that I was insubordinate. Now, she threatens to quit on a regular basis whenever she doesn’t get her way.

      We had previously developed a warm rapport, but that has cooled. She has tried to get chatty with me again, but honestly, after going through all of that, I don’t really want to engage. We also sit next to each other and it’s awkward most days. My advice would be to remain professional, protect yourself, and make sure that your bosses are on side. Make sure that the role divisions are crystal clear and make sure that this person understands that this isn’t up for debate – these are specific changes coming from management. If this coworker starts freaking out or venting, remain calm and empathetic. However, if it gets personal, feel free to shut that down. Best of luck! It’s really not easy.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Possibly I’m misunderstanding the situation, but if you have been helping your co-worker not because she’s incompetent but because she’s overwhelmed with a lot more work than one person can reasonably handle, then after the reorganization occurs and you start doing more of the work you were hired to do, and less work for her, please consider whether it would be worthwhile to go to your shared manager and advocate getting an assistant for your co-worker to help her the way you used to. This might take some of the edge off her potential anger or anxiety about the new situation. Even if you’re unsuccessful, at least she’ll know you tried to help.

  18. PX*

    Positive work stories!
    I’ve been meaning to post this for a while, but after spending about a year job hunting and feeling pretty frustrated, I eventually ended up in a job that genuinely makes me excited. Great growth opportunities, good colleagues and a good manager. Its not all perfect (benefits arent great) but in the 18months I’ve been here my salary has gone up 20% and I’ve gotten a promotion, so overall I cant complain.

    So who else is feeling happy about their employer?

    1. Catalin*

      Actually, I’m super impressed with my employer right now. While doing Open Enrollment for insurance this week, I clicked on some links for ‘other support’ or something and discovered that my company has a lactation support program for moms returning to work. This is in addition to our 16 weeks of paid family leave. (We’re a multi-national company but this is happening in the US.) The support includes six months of telephone consultations with lactation experts, a choice of three (good) portable pumps, and a few other things related to counseling, adjusting, etc. All free to the employee/their partner.
      This isn’t something I’ll benefit from directly, but I’m pretty darn impressed that my company has it.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh my gosh. My company gave 6 weeks paid maternity leave, and would hold your job for another 6 weeks unpaid (unless they didn’t hold your job), and has a lactation room as legally required. But 16 weeks?!
        And several pump options, and lactation consultants? Wow.

    2. OtterB*

      I’ve been with my employer, a small not-for-profit association, for 13 years. I like my work and my coworkers.

      This has been the medical year from hell for my family and between me and my husband I have burned through all my (generous) accumulated PTO and vacation time. I think I have reaccumulated about a day of PTO and two or three of vacation since the last crisis. Now the next one is upon me and I will be having surgery Nov 1. Recovery time uncertain. I emailed my boss a couple of days ago as this was shaping up to say that I didn’t have the time off but would like to continue to get paid and could we discuss options? Back in the office today, he just stuck his head in my door and said to take what I need and I can climb back out of the deficit as I earn more leave. And that I didn’t have to have paid it all back before I could take a real vacation, either. (We do have short-term disability insurance, but I think that only applies if I am completely unable to work for more than 2 weeks, and my best guess is that by around 2 weeks I am going to want to ease back in by at least reading email and doing a little work from home.)

    3. Integrity Snob*

      I really like my job and company too and got a similar pay increase! My bosses believe in me and trust me and I’ve got to start up and organize many great new tech projects! My only complaint is my ferociously incompetent “friend of people in high places” junior employee who won’t be going anywhere any time soon lol and that’s a normal complaint I think. I get so much freedom – love it!

    4. JN*

      I’d been job hunting for a bit over a year before accepting a new position at the beginning of this week. Higher pay and good benefits. My current job is sad to be losing me in a few weeks (and I’m a bit sad to be leaving), but I’m hopeful this new job will be a good thing.

    5. Anonnymus*

      I’m feeling fairly neutral at the moment about work (I’m halfway through the initial training period for a higher qualified role at the moment and chomping at the bit to be back doing my job again!) but I’ve been reflecting on an incident from a few months these last few weeks. One of the things it’s reminded me of is how good my company is at support in those situations. An immediate debrief on every occasion (I’ve been to these kind of incidents three times now), an offer of a referral for EAP, a follow up from a manager a few days later to check how I was doing (although that was manager dependent!). And then when I found the courage to mention to my trainer that I was struggling again, there was an immediate ‘ok, do you want to talk it through with me?’ and a referral to EAP. So I’m really impressed with that side of things at the moment.

    6. Anony McAnonface*

      I love my job and just had my contract extended! \o/ Great work, wonderful colleagues, easy commute. The pay isn’t great but I’m hopeful that will improve in the future.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        And I get to manage my own time and work in my own way which makes me happy.

        Plus my husband had a car accident this week and my manager was so kind and supportive. (He’s okay.)

    8. Delphine*

      I love my current employer. My hope is that I can be at this job for another four or five years (about to hit three). My worst nightmare is the company shutting down or getting let go or fired, because I don’t think I would ever find another place that has a great boss, great coworkers, in the industry I want to work in, with a good salary and great benefits.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      While my employer is average, my boss is extraordinary. I think I have mentioned before that one day I said “Something is wrong with my dog”. I never said what it was, she interrupted and said “Go home. Right now.” She was so pleased to hear that I got help for him that day.
      More importantly, we look for each with difficulty arises. While she is the expert, I can fill her gaps. Some days she walks in and the first thing I say is “I have been waiting to see you. i am so glad you are here.” Then there are days where it goes the opposite way and she is looking for me to come in. It is nice to a competent boss. It’s a luxury and a privilege to have a brilliant boss who is compassionate.

    10. Stellaaaaa*

      Part of my job involves working with little kids. Yesterday I brought a cupcake to a coworker. One of the kids saw the cupcake and started singing Happy Birthday. He thinks it’s a cupcake song.

    11. hermit crab*

      I have been at the same company for nine years (today is my nine-year workiversary!) and, while it’s far from perfect, overall I am satisfied. I have had managers that ranged from decent to life-changingly excellent; I have been given progressively greater responsibility; when I pointed out that I was being paid less than men in my same role I was (eventually) given a raise to rectify that; I am being encouraged to moonlight within the organization to do things that aren’t really my job but that fascinate me; and, while I have been feeling seriously burnt out recently, I am taking a 2+ week vacation next month (with another employee in our division, no less!), to which nobody has even batted an eye. And the work itself has always been interesting, if sometimes weird and stressful for no good reason. I am cool with this. And I think being cool with this might actually be more important than being happy with it? This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately, so thank you for bringing it up. :)

  19. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    What would your reaction be if, having not gotten a position you were extremely qualified for, and upon asking for feedback, you were told someone else got it because they were “more popular?”

      2. Future Analyst*

        Agreed. If popularity would dictate how work is assigned/who got promotions/raises, etc., you’d be frustrated down the line anyway. Frustrating for now, though!

    4. PieInTheBlueSky*

      My first reaction is that it was a very poorly worded way of saying that more members of the hiring committee preferred the other candidate.

      1. Bex*

        Same here. I would assume it was poor word choice, not some kind of statement on office-wide popularity.

    5. Beatrice*

      They actually used the term “more popular”? O.O

      I suppose, if the job involved a lot of consensus building or internal persuasion, that descriptor might have been a really poor way of explaining that the candidate they chose was better qualified to help them in that area, but wow, what a bad way to put it.

    6. hbc*

      I would guess that they meant that people had clicked better with the other candidate, that they seemed a better fit for the culture. Or that they meant the five people interviewing simply voted and you lost 2-3. I mean, it’s pretty unlikely they asked about how busy my social calendar is, whether I was bullied in school, or checked to see if I had enough Twitter followers, so the crappy definition of “popular” is probably not in play.

      And I would remind myself that if they really did sit around after my interview and were like, “Ugh, I just cannot imagine her sitting with us at the cool kids table”, then I’d be glad not to work there.

    7. Jaydee*

      I would definitely be upset. But is it possible that is just ridiculously poor wording and that “popular” really means “We had multiple people involved in making the hiring decisions. Everyone agreed you were very qualified, but more than half felt that Other Candidate was a better fit for the job.”?

    8. LKW*

      Is this an internal hire where the two of you already work there and are known to the interview committee? If that’s the case – that’s supremely idiotic and piss-poor management. You should look to move on to a different company.

      If you don’t work there – then I’d say it was a poorly phrased way of saying “The other candidate is a better cultural fit.”

      1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

        It is an internal decision, and there were only two people involved in the interview. It was to become a supervisor of people who were already peers.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          There’s a lot of context that matters. Could they be meaning that the other person gets along better with their peers?

          1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

            We both get along well with our peers. The other person is *friends* with most of our peers – I am more “work friendly.” I don’t tend to get into my private life at work.

            1. SophieChotek*

              In the end that might mean the other person will be a worse manager….but I guess no one thought about that scenario

        2. Undine*

          Ooh, in this case going for “popular” could really backfire. They may be thinking that since Wilhelmina is already popular, she will be well-received as a supervisor. But in fact, as a supervisor she will have to things that are in direct opposition to popularity. If she tries to stay popular, she won’t manage, and if she tries to manage, she won’t stay popular. So they might not be very good at hiring.

          However, I think for you, it’s best to remember it’s not personal. It’s really easy to get caught up in something like this and get bitter.

          1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

            Trying hard. This person is now *my* supervisor, even though I have 2 more years experience and a year’s seniority.

    9. AndersonDarling*

      It sounds like the individual is expressing their frustration at a ridiculous decision. If an unqualified candidate was chosen just because they were buddies with the managers involved, that sounds like the kind of snark response I would make. I wouldn’t protect a bad decision.

    10. Close Bracket*

      I was in a really similar situation. I wasn’t furious, exactly, but I took note of it, and it affected how I viewed the organization. Ultimately, organizations which tolerate bullsh!t tend to have a lot of bullsh!t, and I left.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Others have given you answers that use a higher road than I would probably use. My response would be to leave the job. I’d procure my next job first, though.

  20. Line Straddler*

    Anyone know about the Results Pyramid and have any great work stories to share?

    For those who don’t know, it’s about the relationship between our experiences, which form our beliefs, which them influence our actions, with impact our results. The idea is that if you want to impact results, you must first give your staff new experiences to change their beliefs.

    I’d love to hear how this model has worked for you.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m sure there’s some limited validity to that, but in my case, I’d call it bunk. If my employer tried to influence my beliefs, I’d be dusting off my résumé. What positively impacts my results is a work environment that gives me the resources to do my job and a manager who finds the right balance of being available to answer questions while also allowing me the autonomy to explore the best solutions. What would negatively impact my results would be an employer who says “We’re going to try to influence your beliefs, because we think that will result in better work from you.”

      2. Line Straddler*

        I think the idea is that you may have to change the way you define “beliefs”.
        They aren’t trying to influence your political/moral/religious/personally held beliefs. They are trying to influence a belief like “XYZ part of my work doesn’t matter for ABC reason so I end up letting it fall off my plate”.
        Sometimes all the reminders, training, screaming in the world can’t improve compliance with XYZ until people realize that there’s a reason other than ABC for why it actually is important.

        I like to think about closing the lid on the toilet seat. My dad never put the lid back down on the toilet seat because he simply couldn’t be bothered/my mom may not have cared/his mom may not have cared, or whatever. He finally changed his behavior when he had an experience where he himself fell in the toilet bowl in the middle of the night like the rest of us have probably done once. His experience taught him that it mattered more to put the lid down than to risk falling in the toilet, which ultimately changed his actions.

        Does that make more sense?

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      It sounds like garbage to me, to be honest. One new experience is going to be weighted against my entire lifetime of experiences and is not going to move the needle.

      Why not just tell your staff the results you expect and have a back-and-forth brainstorming session about whether those results are achievable? If so, ask them what resources are required and provide those resources.

    3. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      This sounds like one of those things where the extent to which it is true overlaps with the extent to which it is pretty meaningless.

      For example, if you have a workplace where high performers aren’t rewarded and poor performers aren’t moved out, you could definitely draw this kind of line:

      Experience: My workplace doesn’t fire people or give raises based on performance
      Belief: It doesn’t matter how well or poorly *I* do, it won’t affect my job security or my pay
      Action: I am not going to put much effort into my work. Why bother? What’s in it for me?
      Result: Work suffers

      Change the experience, change the result? Okay:

      Experience: My boss gives better raises to good workers, and lets go of bad workers
      Belief: My personal output has a direct relationship with my job security and my income
      Action: I will work hard enough to meet or exceed expectations
      Result: Work improves

      Except… we already knew that incentivizing good performance is a good management practice. How does it benefit from being put in this framework? What new information does this structure give us about improving performance or results?

      It also seems really easy to incorrectly extend from “true but meaningless” to “untrue but seemingly meaningful”. “Experiences” and “beliefs” are fuzzy terms. Does it really matter if Sally genuinely *believes* that your widget is going to revolutionize the world, when your pay/commission structure is good enough that she’ll work hard to sell it to your customers? How many experiences are going to be foisted on her to get her to believe in the Widget the way you want her to? Is that really the best use of time and effort?

      I guess I can see some value in this as a way to break down what’s going wrong. Like, if the problem is that your workplace won’t fire slackers, then it’s not going to matter how many all-staff emails you send out admonishing people to do more work. They have no reason to start. In that context, sure, it makes sense to start thinking about what *you* can control, and what changes *you* have to make to start getting better work out of your staff. But for an already solid manager, in a mostly functioning workplace? I don’t see much benefit.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Sounds a bit intrusive and like some kind of stealth attempt to therapise people.

      Core beliefs are not something you should steam in trying to challenge if you are not trained to do that!

    5. Close Bracket*

      Well, if you as my manager want to change my belief that you are a shitty manager, then you will definitely have to change your actions and start using good management techniques, like meeting with me regularly (or ever) to see how my assignments are going and to review my goals. I’m pretty data driven, so if I saw my manager making positive changes, it would slowly change my opinion about them, and I might possibly stop looking for a new job on company time and maybe do better work.

      How has it worked for you?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      While I agree that our experiences do influence our beliefs, I also think there are not enough hours in the work week to cure everyone. I am a firm believer in learning by doing.
      I had a person who was afraid of a machine that heated up. I had heard the horror stories of the old models so I knew that she had concrete reason for her fear. We were using the new models which were 100 times safer. This story dragged on as she did avoidance behavior and I was concerned that I might not be able to help her overcome this and she would lose her job.
      Finally one day my boss said “Either she does this work with this Machine or she is fired.” Oh, crap. All because of fear. Well, you can’t cure fear by telling a person they will be fired if they don’t just “get over it”. Matter of fact, the next time they encounter a similar situation their fears will be even WORSE because of being fired.

      So I asked her if she would watch me run the Machine. It took everything she had, but she said yes. I was so grateful, silently. She literally stood behind me and peered over my shoulder. I explained the new tech and how this machine was better. Slowly she moved so she was standing beside me. I notice the change in body language and I set her up on a machine next to me. “Come on, we are going to try this together. I am going to do a sample and then it’s your turn.” She tried. And she found out she would be okay. This took 15 minutes, my job was crazy busy so this would be a like hours to some people.

      To other people in the group this level of hand-holding would be an insult and/or a waste of time. They were comfortable with the machines and successfully doing their jobs. They did cheer her on for facing her fear. She never forgot that day and how we handled it.

      All this experience was good for me. Years later I encountered a boss who had been burned by previous employees. I knew exactly how to help her to understand that things would be different now.

  21. Holly Flax*

    This week we had a candidate for one of our open positions show up to our offices in a suit to hand deliver their resume and cover letter one day after the position was posted. They have over 20 years of work experience but are nowhere near qualified for this position. I was in such shock that I just thanked them for their application and said we would be in touch in a couple of weeks if they were selected for interview. How should I respond if this happens again? I think this is really hampering their ability to find a job.

    1. Infinity Anon*

      You don’t really owe them advice and it doesn’t sound like they were super out of line. Dropping off the resume and then leaving, while not great, does not sound like it is the worst thing they could do so long as they are polite about it. And you never know how someone will respond to criticism. If you have a set way you want to receive the applications (online application system?) you could say “Actually, we only accept applications through (insert application process here). Once you submit your application there, we will be in touch in a couple of weeks if you are selected for an interview.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you were even generous in saying “we would be in touch in a couple of weeks if they were selected for interview.” The next time it happens, you should probably just say “Thanks,” and then put it in a pile.

    3. Spooky*

      I mean, if you really just want to drive home the point, you could always say, “I’m sorry, but we stopped accepting paper applications about a decade ago. You can apply via our online system.”

      But it’s not really your problem to tell him he’s not qualified. A simple “thank you” seems fine to me.

    4. OwnedByThCat*

      If someone did that to me I would let them know that in order to be considered they would need to apply through our website! I would definitely be caught off guard.

    5. Todd*

      I’m not quite sure what the issue there is. If a company posts a job with requirements and someone stops by to drop a resume and cover letter what’s the issue? I’ve seen this done lots of times. Now the person dropping their resume/cover letter needs to realize they aren’t there for an interview, they are merely dropping the paperwork off with a receptionist. It’s at the companies discretion whether the receptionist is going to call back to HR and say “Would you like to speak to this person”.
      Now if the person is unqualified…that’s another issue. Then you just don’t advance that person to the next round of evaluations.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This is a good point *if* the ad didn’t give explicit instructions on how to apply.

      2. Holly Flax*

        The ad says email your resume and cover letter to our general hr email address. Oddly enough, I just noticed that they sent their resume and cover letter to that email address a couple of hours before dropping in. I guess it felt odd to me because we are a tech startup and I think most people in our industry would be turned off by this. Also, we do not have a receptionist so they were apparently aimlessly wandering around our office and they just so happened to ask our CEO to direct them to HR.

        1. JamieS*

          Not that odd. It sounds like he’s slightly north of springtime so considering that he was probably the email would be “lost”. Obviously not a great practice but not completely out there.

      3. periwinkle*

        A resume is NOT an application. Handing me a resume is not the same as completing the job application. Go fill out the application if you want to apply. If you’re not applying for a specific position but want to be kept in mind (and we absolutely searched our resume database when we had roles to fill), then send me a .pdf or .doc of your resume so I can import it into the resume database.

        Don’t assume that I will be delighted to set aside my other work to manually type your damn resume information into our database.

        That cover letter isn’t going to see the light of day, either, unless it’s attached to an application, which you didn’t fill out. Perhaps I will make a nice origami crane out of it. Or a frog, because I really need practice with that one. My cranes are flawless already.

        This grumble brought to you by someone who used to work in recruiting.

      4. Cobol*

        1) If you drop off a resume or doesn’t get into the system without somebody taking time out of their day to do it
        2) There may be more info asked for in the online application that isn’t outlined in a more broad job description.
        3) As Holly reveals below, many offices are not set up to have dropins.
        4) Doing something that is significantly out of the cultural norm indicates you may not get it.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If it happens again, explain that you don’t accept applications in person and they’d need to apply online. If they try to pitch you on themselves (which is often part of this approach), don’t indulge it out of a desire to be polite. Cut them off and say, “I’m sorry, I’m not able to talk, but if you apply online, we’ll be in touch about whether or not an interview makes sense.”

    8. Mockingjay*

      I am wondering if he was let go from a long-time position, so this is the first time he’s job searched in a while. He may simply not be aware how the job application process has changed.

      I had to coach Mr. Mockingjay on the new “norms” when he retired from government service and began looking for busy work. He held many quaint notions, along the lines of GUMPTION! Just show up! Call and Call some more! Send an email! Send another!

      As a contractor at the mercy of yearly task orders and expired funds, I have way more experience in the job hunt realm. I convinced him that Alison knows best. (Here’s your 2-page resume, upload with targeted cover letter to ATS, and WAIT.)

      1. Get a Haircut*

        *Fist bump* Well-meaning girlfriend, old-school retired military offers me similar advice. “No honey, that’s not really done anymore…”

  22. beanie beans*

    When an online application haves you fill in supervisor or manager names and contact info and asks “may we contact this employer/supervisor/manager?” would they typically follow reference protocol and inform you before they contact them? It seems a little different than references, but surely they wouldn’t call them before you made it very far in the process, right?

    I haven’t told my boss I’m looking, and a few of these online applications have me nervous he’ll get a call before I’ve given him a heads up. No place in the online forms to request notifying first…

    1. SophieChotek*

      Could you just say “no” — or do you just want a heads up first? I would probably err and say “no” and then if you get to the interview stage, if references-check come up amend your statement?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      If the potential employer has any sense of business ethics, they will not contact your manager without your permission before getting to the reference-checking stage (at the reference-checking stage, they can do whatever they want). Unfortunately, if they have no sense of business ethics, you leaving your boss’s name off the form may not prevent them from contacting your current employer (at least the company), though.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      In some application fields, there are comment or note sections at least somewhere, when you post your resume or when discussing past experience (sometimes I’ll use the job experience section if it’s one of those where you enter everything manually). In one of those, I have always put “please notify me prior to conducting reference checks with current supervisor” or something to that effect.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I would check No. It doesn’t look bad, most people know that most workers don’t advertise their job searches to their boss.

      I filled out one recently that stated at the bottom where I signed, that I was giving them permission to contact any of my references and jobs by submitting the application. I went back to a space where there was a line for my current position and added “My employer is not currently aware of my job search”

    5. beanie beans*

      Thanks everyone – I think I’ve got good options for how to handle this in the future!

      I think I’ve had a brain block that clicking “no” would somehow reflect poorly, but Sophie, you’re right, totally reasonable for a current position, and I can clarify later.

  23. Language Student*

    I started applying for jobs this week and had an interview today (which went well, I think). I’m finding it frustrating how many permanent, retail non-senior type positions require 1-2+ years experience in retail, though. Should I apply anyway and count my tutoring experience as “customer service” or just move on?

    1. Professional Shopper*

      You should apply! You can count anything where you’re interacting with the public as customer service experience. Tutoring would work–you’re dealing with people one-on-one and you have to clearly communicate. Anyone you tutored is a kind of customer, and use those experiences to answer questions like, “How have you handled a difficult customer?”

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      My HR tags my entry level positions with 1-3 years experience required. I really wish they didn’t, but they do. Apply anyway. Job postings are targeted at the perfect candidate, which doesn’t exist.

    3. kb*

      Definitely apply! As Personal Shopper said, highlight any role where you worked with people. Additionally, I found that when I had slim customer service experience, actually going into the store to drop off a resume and cover letter shortly after I had applied online helped me get jobs. I know that’s the opposite of everyone’s advice here and I agree with them for most all situations. In retail, though, demonstrating that you are a charismatic person who can make a good impression on strangers goes a long way, especially if your resume doesn’t have anything on it that would reflect that.

  24. Opalescent Tree Shark*

    I don’t need advice (the employee in question is already being transitioned out and her last day is a week from today), but I am wondering what all of you would do in the situation.

    I think one of the people in my department is racist, but nothing she does is blatantly racist. Let’s call her Jane. I am a supervisor in my department, but I am not Jane’s direct supervisor. Occasionally, though, when her supervisor is unavailable, I observe Jane’s programs (we are in informal education). The first time I observed something….off was a couple months ago, and I think it was one of the first times I had to observe this person. Jane was speaking to a white family when a black family approached her. Jane completely ignored the black family. Ideally in this situation, we want our educators to incorporate new people into the conversation, which is not always an easy skill. She did make any attempt to do this, she didn’t even say something like “I’ll be with you in a minute,” she just didn’t acknowledge their existence. The daughter in the black family even tried to incorporate herself into the conversation and Jane continued to ignore her. Typing this out, it seems definitely, obviously racist, but at the time I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. A lot of our educators struggle with how to continue a conversation when a new person approaches you in the middle of a conversation with someone else, but in all my observations, it’s never looked quite like this before. I coached her on how to incorporate new people and talked to her about the importance of including everyone, but I did not address the race thing with her directly. I did tell her supervisor what I observed and told her to keep an eye out for similar behavior. I hadn’t heard anything else about possibly racist behavior since then and since I am not her direct supervisor, I thought no more about it

    But then, last week, I wasn’t even directly observing her, but happened to be in the same space where she was educating and notice something again. (Ironically, that was also the day that she had The Talk with her supervisor and our department manager about other performance issues where thy collectively decided to transition her out.) This time, she was talking to a big group of people, including many teenagers. She was mostly giving direction and answering questions. Granted, the teenagers were a bit obnoxious that day, but no more than teenagers are any day. A black teenage boy asked Jane a question. The question he asked could have been taken as an obnoxious question, but he also just could have been genuinely curious. Jane completely ignored his question, but this time is was almost worse than when she ignored the black family. She didn’t talk to anyone else or pretend he didn’t exist. She stared straight at him, not saying a word. He repeated his question and she just continued to stare. I actually jumped in (literally walked in front of her) and answered his question and took over the program, telling her she could have a break and leave the space. I don’t know if she understood why I took over as I didn’t have a chance to talk to her afterwards.

    If you were her supervisor and you saw this behavior (and there weren’t other performance issues), what would you do? How do you tell someone that at the very least their behavior is coming off as racist even if they don’t mean it that way? Would asking a peer of hers who work more closely with her and is a POC if they had ever noticed any racist behavior from her be a good idea or the worst idea?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I want to say it almost doesn’t matter if she is being racist or not because what she is doing is providing poor customer service and a manager should absolutely be addressing that.

      (It obviously does matter if she’s being racist, but that is more difficult to ‘prove’ and coach for in a professional setting.)

      1. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah, regardless of *why* she’s doing it – racism, general rudeness, etc, it’s really bad customer service.

        Honestly, I’d probably need to see more evidence of these kinds of things – does she always ignore black students, or is she rude to others? Is she rude to everyone? Is there a pattern? – before I called it out as obviously racist. In this case, I’d definitely pull her aside and ask for an explanation, giving her the benefit of the doubt.

    2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      I think you handled it well on the spot. I’m glad Jane is being transitioned out. Yikes.

      As for asking Jane’s POC peers and colleagues, I wouldn’t. I can understand why someone might want to, but it puts the colleagues on the spot, where they might feel they’ll face backlash for speaking candidly if it ever gets out that they said something, and asking only POC to take that on isn’t fair. I can see why you would want their opinions and observations about Jane’s behavior, but I don’t know whether there is an appropriate way to solicit those opinions. I think if you were to take action, you would have to go on your own observations about how she treats black constituents, which I think are more than enough.

      1. K.*

        Agreed – absolutely do not ask for feedback from colleagues of color. It’s going to put them in a very awkward unwinnable position. I speak from experience, as a Black woman who has been put on the spot like that.

        In general, if you have to ask if a behavior is racist, it’s a good idea to change the behavior.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Wait… that’s not blatantly racist? That seems blatantly racist to me.

      How do you tell someone that at the very least their behavior is coming off as racist even if they don’t mean it that way?

      Google intent vs. impact.

      1. Infinity Anon*

        There is a chance it is an unconscious bias. In which case bringing it to their attention could be helpful. You would not want to be accusatory since that is likely to lead to defensiveness (not a productive spot to work from ). Just mention the perception and that it could be unconscious. You could even suggest that your staff take an unconcious bias test online (privately of course, for their own information).

        1. Rachel in NYC*

          And its hard to know with only 2 instances over several months. It could be that she is just really bad at her job.

    4. NyaNya*

      I would have found her after the incident to ask her what happened. Not in an accusatory way, but just “Hey, I saw that the student asked you a question and instead of answering, you just stared at him even when he repeated the question. You didn’t seem to have an issue answering questions from the other students. What happened?” And hear her out. If she immediately excuses herself by saying, well the others were polite, that one was rude! You can explain that you heard the interaction and didn’t agree with her assessment, reference that you had previously seen a similar situation when another family approached her and she ignored them as well. Then remind her that her duties include keeping good interactions with all persons in the program. I don’t think going to others and asking if she seems racist is a good idea though, especially if you hadn’t addressed the basics of the interactions you witnessed with her first.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I like this response best- it gives her a chance to either respond and explain the situation or what she’s struggling with appropriately, or give her more rope to hang herself with. If you got an answer from her that confirmed your assumptions, then it would just further support her transition out. It’s a good thing she’s leaving!

      2. strawberries and raspberries*

        I was going to suggest this as well- if you use the word “racist,” people immediately go on the defensive and shut down. It could also be helpful to notice dog whistle racist language she might be using- like if you point out that she was nicer to other (white) guests and she’s like, “But they were so nice and clean and well-spoken!” then you might be like, “Wow, Jane, that’s not how we provide customer service here. Everyone gets treated the same way.”

      3. Thlayli*

        Yeah. Ask first. Both situations happened in circumstances in which there were other possible causes than racism – the first that she didn’t know how to include the second family or didn’t know she should, which you say is a problem many of your staff have, and the second that she interpreted the question as obnoxious so was intentionally not answering it, and you actually said yourself the question could have been meant obnoxiously.
        Without knowing the details I think it’s jumping to conclusions to assume it’s racism. Just two incidents over an extended period, her own manager never noticed any other possible racism even after you told the manager to keep an eye out, and in both cases there was a legitimate alternative explanation. It seems pretty weak to make a definite statement that it was racism.
        I think it’s possible she was being racist, but it’s also possible she wasn’t. If I were you I would have asked her a bit of a pointed question on the second incident – exactly like Nya Nya suggests. I think her answer might have given a bit more info.

    5. LKW*

      I agree that something is very off – and my assumption is that she is a racist or at least spewing racist micro-aggressions left and right. But it’s really easy to play these off as “Well I don’t like to interrupt a conversation” or “it was a rude question”. So you have to show a pattern of behavior to very clearly make the case. For me, I would want to see examples where the situation was similar but different. If a white family approached, would she have brought them into the conversation or would she ignore them as well? If a white student reiterated the question, would she answer it? If a white student brought up the same question on a different day, would she answer it?

      Still – she sounds awful.

      1. Observer*

        Yes, as a supervisor, I would most definitely want to document a pattern. Then you bring it up. It’s not useful to label the person – possibly not even the behavior. But you DO have to identify it. What I mean is that saying “your behavior is racist” is not likely to be helpful. But saying “I see a pattern of different behavior with x group and y group.” is potentially useful and definitely necessary.

    6. Integrity Snob*

      Having worked with an outspoken racist, at my predominantly single-race job at the time… it can really drag everyone down when this happens (I mean, if they care – my office didnt – it took her referring to someone’s hair as “slave braids” who was ACTUALLY black for them to care). But I digress… I’m glad she is transferred out and I hope does not have another job working with the public. I also hope her reputation sticks with her. Saying that though, I also agree with the poster who suggested asking why she ignored that student (while not bringing race in) to see what would have been said.

    7. c.m.*

      I don’t see how you can label a person racist from just two incidents that occurred a few months apart. was the boy the only black person in the group?
      also maybe she had a hard time incorporating new people in the conversation, and here it happened to be with a black family.
      I don’t see racism unless there is pattern beyond the two incidents.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I think, given that we all live in work in a society that is systematically racist, that we can assume that racial bias permeates our actions. It’s healthy to start with that assumption and let that inform how we handle questions like this.

        1. c.m.*

          I disagree. You can judge a person on two incidents that occurred months a part. If you see a white Person rude to a black person, does that mean that the whit person is racist? the white person can be a rude person in general or maybe they had a bad day that is causing their behavior. You cannot jump to conclusions. If a person caught you acting, on two different occasions months apart, rudely would you want to be judged? There can a million reasons for one’s behavior. The poster only brought two examples with no more general context. the poster writes that between the two incidents (few months time) she didn’t hear about any racist behavior. maybe the poster caught her in a bad time…

          2. Delphine*

            How many incidents would you like before people are allowed to pass judgement? Three, four, six?

            Frankly, people of color make these judgments regularly. It’s how we protect ourselves. It depends on what I experience (and I have experienced exactly what the OP is describing), but two incidents is certainly enough for me to deeply mistrust a person. I will suspect you’re racist if your behavior leads me to believe you might be. I don’t have the privilege of pretending that all potentially racist people are just having a bad day or are truly, honestly good people.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Psychologists tend to say that if we see a behavior three times we have a pattern. I have used this rule of thumb a lot. On some things, like this example here, twice is more than enough for me. “This is the second time I saw you not answering a non-white person. What’s up.” Or depending on other circumstances, maybe I would just go straight to the boss with what I saw.

          3. Optimistic Prime*

            The OP didn’t say that she was definitively racist; she said she thought she MIGHT be racist and was using this as a starting point to investigate that suspicion. But…seriously, these two incidents both had a black person as the target. I don’t think it’s outside the realm of reasonableness to wonder if they might be racially motivated.

        2. Specialk9*

          Exactly. Especially in the US, racism is baked into the foundation of our nation and permeates our culture. Racism is clearly an evil that harms people, deeply, and warps society. But our thinking about racism is binary in a way that actually, paradoxically, prevents the problem from being resolved. ‘Good person = not racist’ doesn’t account for the fact that this is a common struggle, that’s worth struggling with. ‘I’m a good person with racist programming that I have to work to overcome’ is much more effective than ‘I’m a good person so I can’t be racist, la la la la I can’t hear you!’.

          1. TL -*

            Yes this. I generally strive to be a good person but I definitely have had a few very shame-filled moments on crowded trains where I realized that I felt uncomfortable because a tall black man dressed in jeans/T-shirt got on and stood next to me. I didn’t even realize I made those assumptions before that!
            I still don’t think I’m a bad person but I definitely spent some serious time shaming myself in my head and taking the time to counter my assumptions and being honest that I was having racist and hurtful reactions. It felt sucky to admit it to myself but I don’t think it made me the worst person ever, just one with some serious work to do.

  25. acting as a reference*

    I’m acting as a reference for someone and the hiring manager emailed me the questions. I hired this person as a freelancer, so I was responsible for her, but it wasn’t the same type of relationship as working with an employee of the company (no performance reviews, no career development, no working in teams, etc.). A lot of the questions are about those aspects. How do I answer those, or do I just write that they didn’t apply?

    Also, how do you all answer questions asking whether the person you’re acting as a reference for needed improvement or where their areas of weakness were? I’ve never been a reference before and I don’t really have anything negative to say about their work, and I obviously don’t think I should make something up, but the questions make me feel like I should have something to say? They’re very direct – “What areas did they need additional assistance? / What areas needed to improve? / Was improvement received after a review was delivered? / What was their weakest work quality?”

    1. fposte*

      If they don’t apply, just write they don’t apply. Pretty much the same for the improvement questions–if there was no area for improvement, you don’t need to write one. I’ve also said things like “I saw great growth in xxx” to indicate it wasn’t their strongest area but it also wasn’t one that was going to be a fixed flaw.

    2. Soupmonger*

      Explain in the reference how you know the person, that they weren’t an employee. And if you didn’t experience any areas of weakness while working with them, just say that. Be honest, and if you can’t answer questions, tell them so and your reasons.

  26. eUGH*

    I didn’t get the job. I reminded myself constantly that I probably wouldn’t get it, but dang I interviewed well (best interview ever).

    Toxic job is still toxic, but I’m learning to make the most of it (by doing work I am not remotely qualified to do). However they seem to be expecting my to travel and suggested I should replace my clunker with a car on finance (since I can’t afford a new one)- NOPE NOT HAPPENING.

    2. Specialk9*

      Oh man I’m so sorry to hear that.

      Any chance you can find a small treat this weekend? Kick autumn leaves and breathe deeply while staring up at trees, even? (Obv depends on hemisphere – find a local equivalent.) Something to pamper your soul.

      If they suggest financing a car, I’d act super enthusiastic about *them* taking on that business expense. :D

  27. POed*

    My boss is the moodiest SOB I’ve ever known and I’m losing patience dealing with it.

    When things are good they’re really good but when he’s in a bad mood it’s a nightmare: micromanaging, snark and attitude. None of my co-workers get the brunt like I do and if I didn’t like them and the work I’d be gone already. I’m also the only woman and the youngest on the team, but am a consistent top performer.

    I guess I should dust off the resume because I don’t think this is going to change.

    1. JadedDisneyCharacter*

      Sorry you are going through this. I experienced similar in my last role from a temp boss while mine was on maternity leave.

      My advice would be to dust of the resume and move on if it doesn’t improve.

    2. Emily S.*

      It really sounds like this is not going to change, because we’re talking about this man’s own issues/personality.

      IMHO, it is time to start a job search.

  28. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Two weeks ago I had an initial interview that went well and my fingers have been itching to ask the person for an update, but I’m not going to do it, because the messaging I got was clearly “we’re interested, but we’re in the very early stages of initial interviews so it might take a couple weeks to get back to you, and we look forward to being in touch when we have an update.” I know they’re getting slammed with applications and I know it might be a while before I hear back, if I ever do. I want to know one way or another whether I’ll be advancing to the next stage of interviews, but I also know patience is a virtue. The ball is in their court and I need to respect their process.

    So I’m just yelling into the void: WAAAAIIITTIIIIIINNNGGG SUUUUUCCCKKKKSSSS.

    2. Nanc*

      Do not read this reply if you don’t want a double ear worm . . .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      It’s not helpful, but I read your second to last second to last sentence just as Aretha Franklin’s Respect came up on my iTunes and as I know this iTunes mix, very well, the next song will be Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ The Waiting [is the Hardest Part]. Again, not helpful but freaky coincidence!

    3. Close Bracket*

      I’m in the same position. Today is the last day I am going to keep thinking about it, and then I assume I am no longer in the running and think about other things. Next week is a job fair at my department, so that should help get my mind off it.

  29. Moneygrubber*

    I’m an hourly employee at a for-profit company somewhat related to healthcare, and we’re a major sponsor of a local charity event this Saturday. Nobody told me explicitly that I’m required to attend, but the feeling I’ve gotten was that I’m required to go — and I don’t know of anyone in the office who’s not attending. This is the kind of place where multiple people noticed I didn’t attend the company’s “family fun day” on a weekend and mentioned it the next day.

    I don’t really mind attending this event on Saturday, but I intend to put those hours on my timesheet so I can be paid — and they’ll be paid at time and a half, since I’m already working over 40 hours during the normal work week. Is that going to come off as shady or out of step with the culture?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If they want you to work the event, then you should be paid for your time. If you’re simply attending, then I think that would likely be out of step with the notion of a charity event.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Not only this (which I agree with), but also, giving yourself overtime hours without clearing it with a supervisor sounds like something that could be very out of step as well.

        1. Moneygrubber*

          That’s a good point about the overtime, but my manager is generally not picky about a few hours of OT here and there because our workload is pretty heavy lately. It’s not uncommon for me to turn in timesheets with ~5 hours of OT, which she approves without question.

          As for the event, I think I’ll probably be asked to do at least some setting up or tearing down or “working the booth” or whatever, in addition to completing the main event (think walk, run, race, march, etc.) — but I’m not sure. It will eat up at least three or four hours of my Saturday morning. I have to wear a company shirt and everything.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      Ask! In a reasonable organization, they’ll have to recognize that requiring your time outside of work for an hourly position is a no-go, and runs afoul of the law. If you’re really required to be there, they should absolutely pay you-and if they won’t, you should suddenly have important plans and/or will be out of the state.

      1. Moneygrubber*

        You’re right. In the past, my co-workers have told me the annual Christmas party is “basically required,” and while they don’t put those exact hours on their timesheets, they find a way to work the equivalent into their timesheets during the week. As you might guess, this place isn’t the world’s most reasonable environment — but I do know that our HR department is careful not to run afoul of the law.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Please ask your boss if this is paid time or pure volunteer time. Then decide accordingly.

    4. Thlayli*

      Have you asked your manager if you are supposed to come? Voluntarily showing up without being asked and then demanding overtime is way out of line. Either you’re there working which should he agreed in advance or you’re there volunteering for which you shouldn’t be paid. Contact your manager before showing up.

  30. paul*

    So…this happened earlier this week and I’m still sort of hacked off about it.

    backstory: I’m a formerly serious powerlifter, and I’m trying to get back into the game. And I’m trying to cut down about 45 lbs of weight I put on after having kids and a major pair of injuries (not lifting related).

    On Monday, I stopped by Walmart on the way to work and got some protein powder and protein bars to keep at the office–the powder is 140 calories/30g protein, the bars (Thinkthin brand–tasty!) are 230 calories and 20-21 grams protein depending on flavor. Figured they’d help me stay away from the pure sugar snacky stuff that’s always around and help me hit my macros easier. I also got some Advil Cold & Sinus to keep at my desk because hay fever sucks.

    I put the powder and bars on the hutch on my desk.

    We have a meeting here and my bosses boss comes into my office for unrelated stuff and sees the protein powder and pointedly reminds me that our policy prohibits the use of banned substances including steroids.

    I remained about as calm as I could when I pointed out that protein is *not* exogenous testosterone and that WalMart isn’t in the habit of selling contraband on store shelves, and that being interested in losing weight doesn’t mean I’m using gear any more than listening to grunge (which she likes) means she smokes pot. But I’m afraid she took it kind of badly.

    1. Dotty*

      Yeah she was being really offensive so I see why you’d be annoyed. That was a pretty good comeback on the spot too.

      1. paul*

        I’m just nervous because now my grandboss is mad at me :/ And apparently thinks I use steroids (which…if they were legal and affordable I would but they’re neither and jail time isn’t worth a better squat).

        But I don’t know how I should have addressed it better or how I should moving forward.

        1. Dotty*

          You could mention to grandboss – “I think I may have come across a bit blunt the other day – and I’m sorry if that’s the case. I must admit I was caught off-guard to have someone seemingly insinuate I’d take illegal substances, at all, but much less in the workplace.”

          And then yes if people comment again, shrug it off as “it’s just a protein bar but thanks” as others have commented but I think your response was understandable

        2. The OG Anonsie*

          I don’t know, but I get the feeling from your boss’s reaction to seeing something as benign as protein powder that she (and potentially grandboss) are not super reasonable or easy to deal with in general. You can’t un-whack whacky people in my experience.

          If they mention it again you could say, seriously, that protein powder is literally powdered protein and you’re not sure why they keep bringing up steroids at all.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Having faced parallel stuff, what I have done is brought the product into the boss’ office and let her read the label. Granted you could be adding stuff to the product but anyone could be doing this. The point for her to know is that YOU aren’t.
          Tell her you feel bad about your quick comeback the other day. And you are concerned that she thinks you use steroids illegally. You wanted to reopen the conversation to make sure she understood that you are not using illegal drugs. Then go on to say, “I brought the product(s) in for you to take a closer look at the ingredients list. I like my job and I don’t want anything to be a cause of tension or concern. I prefer to keep things transparent so we are all clear on what is going on.”

          I have found that this approach usually ends the questioning. I think in part because I was the one who reopened the conversation, I did not wait for accusations to fly around.

    2. Emi.*

      Oh golly, that’s obnoxious. I think a casual “Oh, don’t worry, it’s just protein!” would have gone over better, but unless she’s pretty touchy it’s probably not going to be a big deal. Good luck with your return to lifting, btw! I just started ~two weeks ago and I’m having a ton of fun.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      So someone who knows nothing about supplements, tried to lecture you on thinkthin bars as steroids? This all depends on the size of her ego. Can she understand that she misunderstood something and made horrible implications about you? Her taking it badly is not your problem. If you think you can raise it again and say you felt defensive because she made an accusation about you and smooth the waters that might help.

    4. Jaydee*

      Yeah, I think you could have left it at “Ummm, it’s protein powder, not steroids. Pretty sure Walmart doesn’t sell contraband on store shelves” without getting into the comparison to her taste in grunge music.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Especially since if the boss does smoke pot (which is a pretty good chance tbf), you just made the point opposite of what you intended.

        1. paul*

          I…damn. Damn. I hadn’t thought of that. She comes across as a straight edge, but you never can tell.

          1. Emily S.*

            Isn’t that right! There have been times over the years when I’ve been shocked to see an otherwise straight-laced person smoking pot (or whatever). In one case, it was a manager – and we were at work. Oy.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d be tempted to double down on the ridiculousness.

      “Don’t worry, I only take horse steroids so I stay on the right side of the law. But I appreciate your concern!”

      1. paul*

        Fun fact: back when when I was actually competitive, lots of the guys that used did use steroids normally used for livestock. I have no idea what the controls are on the stuff–do you just find a greedy rancher or can you legit buy it at feed store?? And how do you dose it for humans, we’re biologically different?

        Not meant for human consumption but arguably less risky than home brewed I guess? IIRC tren (used for cattle) was the most popular but it’s been a while.

        1. another Liz*

          In veterinary medicine, we use a lot of drugs manufactured for human use, but dosages vary by species. There’s sifnificant research and testing involved in determining those dosages. Getting accurate, safe dosage information on using an animal drug in humans…well, that’s going to be a problem.

          1. another Liz*

            And yes, you CAN just walk into a feed store and buy quite a few things a layperson would expect to need a prescription for. Antibiotics being sold this way are a huge ethical debate in the industry currently.

    6. Catalin*

      I don’t know, that whole scene seems pretty charged to me. It’s pretty strange that she immediately jumped to the steroid place, but some people have/do mix substances in the protein powder so it’s not COMPLETELY off the wall. I agree it was rude to effectively accuse you of being a druggy, but I’m reading your reply to her as being rather defensive and potentially (dependent on relationships and tone) rude.
      This is your grandboss, so jumping straight to, “Just because I use protein to lose weight doesn’t mean I’m a druggie. You’re a fan of grudge and that doesn’t make you a pot-user!” seems less than professionally polite. If it were a coworker, sure, that’s fine.
      Just for consideration.

      1. Chriama*

        Yeah. I also felt that, while the initial comment from the grand boss was kind of rude (why would you assume that I’m both doing something illegal *and* bringing it out at work), your response was wayyyy aggressive and defensive. You could have been direct without being snarky, and that cost you the professional high ground in my book.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          I get the feeling (and correct me if I’m wrong, paul) that boss is regularly weirdly invasive in a judgmental way and paul is primed to be defensive in general.

          Which doesn’t make it better, but is useful context for figuring out what to do next.

          1. paul*

            My grand-boss is pretty new–been here a few months. I only know she likes grunge because she mentioned it when she met us all after being hired. I’m honestly still kind of getting a feel for her. She’s definitely more involved in day to day stuff than the last one but that isn’t necessarily bad by default. I’ve got to be honest; so far I’ve had a very hard time reading her in general.

            Honestly was pretty floored by the whole thing. We’ll have to see how it plays out. I’ll keep Dotty’s suggestion in my back pocket if it comes up again…but I’m still floored that someone would equate protein and steroids.

            Oh well, not here too much longer anyway.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              There are lots of people out there who do not know this stuff. I’d give her a pass this time, just for my own sanity. The pass is not for her, it’s for me so I can move on.

    7. Clever Name*

      Maybe this is because I live in the west in a state with legalized weed, and most folks have a libertarian attitude towards what people do in the privacy of their own home that isn’t harming anyone else, but I’m having a heckuva time figuring out why your employer would care if you’re using steroids. Would it negatively impact your work (‘roid rage??). Are you a baseball player? I’m so confused.

      1. TL -*

        If my employee was bringing an illegal substance into work, I would care. Steriods for muscles mass are illegal; the boss’s reasoning was flawed but her conclusion of “Not allowed at work” is not.

    8. Close Bracket*

      I think that was exactly the answer she deserved, and while I appreciate your bind, you are kind of my hero right now.

    9. periwinkle*

      Wait, is that why I get so angry after eating ThinkThin oatmeal?

      Your boss’s boss is a doofus. No one has ever looked oddly at my protein powders, although to be fair I use Syntax Nectar iced tea powder and people probably just assume it’s Crystal Light. (if you like iced tea and can use whey protein isolate, this stuff is the best)

      1. Paul*

        I’m ordering some of that from Amazon now to try! Thanks for the heads up.

        Frankly the stuff I bought turned otu to to taste *horrible* so I’m trying a few other ones out to try to find something with a good mix of macros, taste, and cost.

    10. Thlayli*

      I actually thought those jars of protein were some borderline legal pseudo drug like a legal type of steroid for years. My friend thought so too. I think it’s a pretty common belief actually. It wasn’t till I met my Husband who lifts weights that I found out it’s just protein in powder form. Sounds like she had a similar belief.

  31. internal transferer*

    Just wanted to throw this out there for advice:

    I applied for an internal position with my company about 4 weeks ago and haven’t heard anything since. I received the generic “Thanks for applying” auto email and that’s it. I was just wondering if I should reach out to the hiring manager with a quick email saying, “hey I applied, haven’t heard anything, is this still open?” The problem is we a huge company and how fast something moves really depends on people hiring. Some departments move really fast, other departments are like turtles in molasses. Do your companies move on internal hires any faster than external?
    The position would be a lateral move for me pay wise, although it is in a different department, like accounting to hr.

    1. C.*

      Do you know anyone in that department well enough that you feel comfortable asking how long their hiring process usually takes? It might be worth asking, although not about your specific application, just “I haven’t heard anything but don’t want to bug them with a follow up if they usually take X amount of time to respond to applicants.”

      1. internal transferer*

        I know someone who used to be in the department and emailed her to ask. Unfortunately I don’t know anyone currently there.

    2. Red Reader*

      We’re glacial. The last time I had a transition, I interviewed in August 2015 and got the call in mid-January 2016. So I haven’t been directing any brain cycles toward the position I interviewed for this August, hah. I figure either they’ll call me about it eventually, or I’ll see in the newsletter that someone else was hired for it.

  32. Taba*

    In my office we have frosted class partitions around the tops of our cube walls. One of my coworkers,who is not on my team but sits near me, has put up a bloody hands and what looks like a gunshot wound decals on his partition as Halloween decoration. With the recent mass shootings I feel this is both tone-deaf and inappropriate in a work environment. Am I over reacting mentioning this to my manager? Two notes, we do not have an HR rep at our location and we do not decorate the office for Halloween. Oh! and his cube is on the aisle of a main walkway so many people will see this.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Are you comfortable mentioning it to him directly? “Fergus, I think your decorations are inappropriate for a professional environment.”

      1. Taba*

        No, he’s not known for his professionalism. He’s the “it’s a joke, can’t you take a joke” kind of guy. I’ve had to ask him in the past to turn his fan so that it doesn’t blow directly on me and that did not go well.

        2. paul*

          “The only joke is your lack of decorum”…is what I’d think really loudly but probably wouldn’t say.

          I’m a fan of gory decorations and the like *at home* or in haunted houses but not at the damn office. Some people have no discernment. A silly skeleton or grinning pumpkin is one thing (though I still do an internal eye roll when my coworkers put them up) but anything that’s really violent just isn’t something Id’ want at work

        4. Nanc*

          Yeah, if my response to the “it’s a joke” think is to always say “I don’t get it. Would you explain the humor?” But I’m obnoxious that way. Can you just drop HR an anonymous note?

          2. Marthooh*

            “Yes, Fergus, I do understand that you find it amusing. I’m trying to tell you that other people may not.”

            In a patient tone of voice.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      We have the same kind of partitions and if I was sharing that wall, then I’d put paper over my side to cover it up. If it was pumpkin and ghost jellies then I’d be all about it. Gun shots cross the line.

    3. LCL*

      If this is just bothering you because of the tackiness of it all, and you don’t have personal reasons for wanting it gone, just ignore it and let him demonstrate how clueless he is. It sounds like many people in the company will see it, he will hear about it from management sooner or later. I try not to engage with the ‘can’t you take a joke people’ unless I am prepared to fight, your judgement on this is sound. My advice would be different if you believe there is anyone in your office who has experienced gun violence or been in the military or law enforcement.

      2. Specialk9*

        You think that when dozens of people including babies were gunned down 2 weeks ago and that’s been all over the news… That graphic violence as decoration at work is too sensitive?

        Oh, sorry, you aren’t being serious. Sorry, got me!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am biased. I have done this, I mentioned it to the boss and the stuff got taken down. Pretty much all you have to do is say, “is this the message we want people to see?”

  33. C.*

    A negotiation-ish question! Next fall, I will be starting work as a first year associate at the firm where I worked as support staff before law school. Due to parking constraints, staff and new attorneys park in a lot across the street. Once a space opens up in the main garage (semi-attached to the building where the firm is located), an attorney will move over there. I hate the across the street lot, so, so much. It’s part of a 4 way stop but no one realizes that the garage is one of the stops, plus drivers in this city are weirdly cool with running stop signs. Everyone has almost been in an accident there at least once. The semi-attached garage’s exit is on another street, so the awful intersection is avoidable.

    Normally it takes 6 months to a year for attorneys to move to the other garage, and attorneys are put on a list based on seniority. There will be another associate starting same time as me, and I’m worried that because he’s ahead of me alphabetically, he will also be ahead of me on the parking space list. Would it be out of line to ask the office manager who maintains the list to put me ahead of him, since I parked in that other lot for three years when I was support staff? Just writing this feels petty and makes me want to tell myself to suck it up, but at the same time, I am already dreading having to park over there after having been reacquainted with the lot last summer. (FWIW, I know one attorney who did this after she left the firm for a few years and then returned, so it’s not impossible, but she had also been practicing for 10+ years versus my 0.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I wouldn’t specifically ask to be put ahead of the other associate, but I would ask “do my years of service as support staff count toward seniority for the garage list?”

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Seconded- this is way better. If it turns out your entire time applies, or could apply in the parking situation, then you could jump more people on the wait list than just the person starting with you.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        I hate to say it, but attorneys are going to put zero value on time spent as support staff when it comes to seniority. In fact, it would come off as naive to ask imho. I think this is a suck-it-up and deal situation, unfortunately.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          But the office manager is not an attorney, and the office manager is the one who keeps the list. All other things being equal, the office manager may decide that C’s service counts.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            In C.’s position, I’d be much more concerned about whether the other attorneys perceived it as fair than if the list keeper did.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              Eh, it’s just as fair as going in alphabetical order. {shrugs} I assume that whatever rules the attorneys have for giving people access to this garage, the office manager has them and will follow them.

    2. LCL*

      I would ask whoever in charge of this how they handle two persons who started on the same date. The solution is really easy-make sure you each have a different calendar date start. From my perspective as someone whose last name is on the bottom half of the English alphabet, this is worth making sure the rules are clear from the start, and going to war if the perk ends up being assigned by alphabetical order.

      I’m still sore about being removed from a class in junior high school because it was overenrolled, and I had been the first one registered because different parts of the alphabet were on a rotating list of who would register first, and I was finally first! It was my turn! And I got something I wanted following their rules! And the administrations’ solution was to ignore the order of registration, and remove us by choosing 3 people from the start of the alphabet, and 3 people from the end, and called it fair because the A-F group were also affected. Even though this go-round they registered last, and all removed should have been the first part of the alphabet.

  34. Rogue*

    Hey everyone I need some help with wording an email. I have to take a certification for my industry. I’ve applied, but one requirements is that all of my previous employers respond to the certifying party’s request for employment verification. I emailed everyone before sending in my app and received responses as to who to have the request sent to. All but one company has complied. I can’t move forward until this company responds. Meaning I’ve paid hundreds of dollars, can even take the exam, but the organization will refuse to certify me without this company’s response. I’ve followed up via phone, supposedly the person was out of the office and the staff would leave a message. I sent an email afterwards, but got no response. I’m going to send another email, please help me word it. I don’t want to come off rudely but if I don’t get this cert, I can’t continue working and will be out the money I paid to apply.

    1. Reba*

      How long has it been since you reached out, and how soon is the deadline? Those things impact how urgent the tone of the followup email is.

      I’d write,
      “Hi Aberforth, I’m following up on the request for work verification for Fancy Certification. I know you were away, but I wanted to touch base since this is an important step for my required certification, and the deadline is _____. Will you be able to respond today–or if there is someone else who should be handling this, please let me know and I’ll contact them. Thank you! All the best, Rogue”

      You might also call the office again and ask if there is another person who could handle the request. Good luck!

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I think you can keep it very simple, firm but short. I would look up multiple POCs at ExCompany, including HR if there’s a department/office/rep. If you have a way to mark it urgent, maybe do that as well? Good luck- this sounds annoying!

      “To whom it may concern,

      Per my email on (date you sent the first prodding email), I am requesting an employment verification response to (name of certifying organization). For context, I worked in (X position) with (Y manager/Z team) from (Date) to (Date). The (name of certifying organization) has required this by (firm end date very near in the future, even if picked by you) prior to fulfilling other criteria associated with my certification application.

      Please reach out to me if there are any issues fulfilling this request, or if there is a specific point of contact I should rope in to do so. Thank you in advance for your help!”

    3. Fabulous*

      I would say something like:

      “Afternoon Aberforth,

      I’m following up on the email I sent to you on 10/1/17 regarding the required work verification for my certification in Fancy Thing. Your verification is the only one that’s still outstanding. The absolute latest due date for work verifications to be submitted to Fancy Thing, Inc. is November 1st, otherwise my Fancy Thing Certification will be denied.

      You should have received a verification request from Fancy Thing, Inc. around mid-September. I realize you may have been out of the office at that time, so please let me know ASAP if you did not receive it.

      I appreciate your quick response. Thank you for attending to this matter!

      Best,
      Rogue”

    4. Rogue*

      Thanks everyone! You’ve all been extremely helpful. To answer some questions, the testing date range is in December so this has to be completed by then at the latest, but I can’t even schedule the test without them completing the verification, so the sooner the better. It’s a small company, so when I initially contacted them to ask who to handle this, I sent the email to each of the 4 people there (its family owned and operated except us field employees). When I called, I explained what was needed, etc and they said yup this person handles that. It’s been about 2, going on 3 weeks since the last time I touched base.

      2. Rachel in NYC*

        If you have the time (or know someone you trust and would be willing to), I’d consider calling the office and set up a time for someone to pick up the employment verification. First call (or email but I find that if you are getting no response to email calling can be best), “Hi, Fergus, I’ve emailed previously about this certification that is required that CertificationOrg sent you in September. Can I stop by Friday to pick it up?” (A date gives them something to correct rather then say no- theoretically) Follow-up email (cc:ing whoever said they’d handle), “Fergus, thank for speaking with me earlier. I look forward to picking up the employment certification from SmallCompany from you on Friday. I’ll see you at the office at 3pm. Thanks, again.”

        And if this is a form that they are filling out, find out if the certifying organization will provide you with a copy of whatever SmallCompany needs to fill out so that it can be brought when you show up so if it hasn’t been completed- it can be completed in that moment. (It’s elaborate but this is how I get signed documents for my office sometimes.)

        1. Rogue*

          Unfortunately, certifying org will not allow that. They will email it only to a rep of the company with a company email address. We are not allowed to have access to the form. Additionally, neither company is in the state I’m currently working and it would be a 15+ hr drive. But thank you for your input! Much appreciated that you took the time to comment.

    5. Specialk9*

      Ugh, that’s the worst. Is it going to a general email box, or someone specific? Either way, CALL. Be charming and ask for help. No attitude in your voice at all! (In fact plaster a big smile on your face – sounds goofy but it makes a difference.)

      1. Rogue*

        It’s going to a specific person’s email. I’ve included the rest of the 3 person staff. Unfortunately, the person that needs to fill the form out, doesn’t answer phones, but if I don’t get a response, I’ll try calling again. Maybe I can sweet talk someone into helping. (This shouldn’t be this difficult. Lol)

    6. Drew*

      How do they handle a situation where a previous employer has gone out of business? If I had to fill this sort of thing out, I would be seriously SOL; one prior company is defunct (that’s why I don’t still work there) and another job literally has no one still there who worked with me; I’m not even sure whom I could ask for verification or if their records go back that far.

      1. Rogue*

        I actually had this happen. I called to find out what to do, since they require X number of verifiable years experience to take the exam and employment verification can only be sent to someone with a company email address. I offered to supply tax documentation showing I worked for the company for the time I said I did and could provide documentation showing I did the work I said I did. The certifying org said they would not accept that and basically too bad, so sad if I couldn’t give them an email address for someone at the company (I explained out of business). I ended up having to find another project and work it to make up the time.

  35. Penny*

    Anyone going to the SHRM conference in San Francisco next week? It’s my first one so I’ve been reading tips from this site to get the most out of it. I really hope to get some useful info and not a bunch of sales pitches. Open to any tips/advice and hearing from any other attendees.

  36. Rookie Manager*

    We work in a small office. Some of my team use an aerosol air freshener which makes me cough and my eyes water. Is it unreasonable to ban it forever?

    2. beanie beans*

      I think it’s totally reasonable to ask them not to use it because you have strong reaction to it. A lot of air fresheners have pretty nasty chemicals in them.

    3. a girl has no name*

      Could you mention that it causes a negative reaction for you and work together to come up with another solution-maybe one that plugs into an outlet? Outright bans can rub people the wrong way, but if you give them a say, they might be totally fine to switching to a different air freshener.

    4. Anono-me*

      Is is not unreasonable to ban people spraying stuff close to you that makes you ill.

      However, people are spraying the stuff for a reason. You might want to check to see if there’s an underlying cause of the bad smell, such as a dead rat (Danicalifornia).

      Also, the banning of air freshener A, might go over better if you can get your company to provide alternate air freshening products.

    5. NoMoreMrFixit*

      nope not unreasonable at all. I’m allergic to many of those concoctions so we don’t have them at all in the house. I found politely explaining there was a legitimate health issue was enough for sane folks to cooperate.

    6. Rookie Manager*

      Thanks everyone, given the size of the office thwy have all seen/heard my reaction to it. They also heard my not very professional ‘I need to leave the building. Never use that again’ as I fled!

      The plug in ones are even more toxic and have made me throw up before. There is no underlying bad smell it was purchased with office funds when I was not there to stop them. I think today’s spray was to cover up food smells. The whole thing made me really cross.

      Now I’ve calmed down I think I’ll bring it up at the team meeting, while I’m the only staff member so strongly affected it would be terrible if our clients were affected by the noxious fumes.

    7. Specialk9*

      Ask them very nicely, try to find a nice smelling alternative (I am allergic to so many fragrances, but *pure* essential oils rarely set me off)… and then steal the bad air freshener. :D

  37. Lipsy Magoo*

    Does your company have any creative ways that they handle cell phone usage for employees that don’t have offices and need to use the phone?

    We are doing some space planning and on a recent client visit it seems our team saw a number of small phones booth type of spaces, that weren’t scheduled or reserved, that employees can use at any time to make a personal call. I assume to avoid people going outside or being in hallways and bathrooms on their phones. Not using these spaces excessively of course, but when needed to make a doctor’s appointment and such.

    Any other ideas out there? Thanks in advance.

    1. TiffIf*

      My office has some small booth type things. I think they are actually meant for client calls that you don’t want to take at your cubicle, but I do know people use them for that type of personal call too. I’ve never used the booths because I usually use a small conference room that’s closer to my desk for a personal call (there’s like 5 small conference rooms within range closer than the booths, generally at least one will be empty). Most other people in my department do the same.

  38. gingerbird*

    So my mother once gave me slime work advice that still bugs me to this day. A few years ago when I was starting my first “professional” job, my mother sat me down and lectured me about the importance of dressing properly at work. One of these things though was that dressing professionalu consisted of wearing panty hose *underneath* slacks/pants. (Preferably with control top.) Not spanx or trouser socks, which I could understand with some people, but full pantyhose.

    This always confused me. I usually wear pants instead of skirts/dresses to work because my office is too cold and I find putting on hose a pain. To me, wearing hose with pants defeats the purpose of pants in general.

    Is this a common thing thats expected of women in the workplace? My industry can be formal, but this seems like overkill.

      1. Specialk9*

        The closest thing to this is that women who grew up in the 50s expect pantyhose with skirts… which nowadays is pretty much out the window except in the most formal of industries (I think law and banking, though I just hung out with a bunch of bankers and only saw 1 pair of pantyhose). I wear tights when it gets cold, but hose? Pshaw. And I loooooove to dress nicely.

        OP, your mom is old fashioned and out of touch – but likely trying to help you. Thank her kindly for the advice and change the subject.

    2. Arielle*

      Apart from the fact that no, this is not expected, if you’re wearing it under pants, how would anyone know if you were wearing pantyhose or not?

    3. Myrin*

      Count me in on the being confused. Unless your job involves disrobing, how would anyone ever know if you’re wearing pantyhose underneath your trousers or not?

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      You’re right, that is slime work advice. ;-)

      No, this isn’t common or expected. If you’re cold, or you get pantylines, or you find your pants hang better if you were pantyhose underneath, then by all means go ahead and do it. But no one is going to expect it.

    5. C.*

      I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but back in 2007 the education department at my college was telling female students to do this when sitting in on classes (not even student teaching, just practicum observation!). Since this is now only the second time I’ve heard this, it’s definitely not common, but probably one of those weird minority views that has a few very passionate defenders.

    6. fposte*

      Maybe it’s a safety thing; in case of a power outage, we need to provide static electricity sparks in the dark.

    7. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Wouldn’t the pants stick to the panty hose because of static? I can’t think of a single reason why you should comply with this advice.

    8. Manders*

      That’s very weird and not expected at all. I’m not even sure why anyone would know what you’ve got on under your pants.

      I think what she might have been trying to suggest was wearing something with a control top? But control tops aren’t really as common these days, and people who want one usually wear a camisole under a blouse, not pantyhose.

    9. Delynn*

      This is honestly crazy advice to me rather than simply old fashioned. As others noted, how will anyone know what you’re wearing under pants.

      But your mother’s reference to control top may point to the point she’s really trying to make.

    10. AndersonDarling*

      It’s old school. Back in the day, women wore panty hose under everything. Miss Manners even states that women should wear hose with open toed shoes- which seems ridiculous, why would I have a seam running across my toes? It’s an open toe shoe, the idea is to see my toes.

      1. EmilyG*

        I thought that’s what “sandalfoot” pantyhose were for. Of course, those get more runs.

        I’m old enough that I’ve worn pantyhose under pants before, either for the pre-Spanx Spanx effect or because I was wearing shoes that would give me blisters if I wore them alone but couldn’t be worn with socks. (I guess there are knee-high hose for that, but I never owned any.) It all feels silly now that I’m typing this out and definitely not de rigueur.

      2. The OG Anonsie*

        You get the sheer toe kind and/or pull the leg on such that the seam is under your foot. That’s what my family used to have me to, heh.

    11. July*

      This is a thing that people who grew up in the 1950s and 1960s thought was a wonderful revolution of the 1970s and 80s. Women at midcentury wore girdles. Women in the 1970s often swapped those girdles for the rather less pinchy control-top pantyhose, even under pants.

      But women in the 21st century? We’re just wearing spanx if we feel like it.

    12. beanie beans*

      I threw away all of my years of pantyhose several years ago. I figured if any future job required me to wear pantyhose, it wasn’t a job I wanted.

    13. Pineapple Incident*

      My mom gave me the same crap advice! I haven’t run into any scenario where someone’s commented or noticed my lack of pantyhose (I hate them, even with skirts), but apparently my mom’s boss would refuse to hire someone if she’d shown up to an interview without wearing pantyhose, even with pants. I liked my mom’s boss, but I consider it a sort of mark on her character that she’d be so sexist (there’s nothing about men’s fashion in interviews that my mom could recall her boss pointing out in a similar manner).

      1. Emma*

        I’m curious how the boss was able to tell, if they were wearing pants. They also make trouser socks that look very much like pantyhouse.

        1. CubicleShroom#1004*

          If you are wearing open toe shoes, or the top of your foot shows from your shoes, someone who is looking can tell if you weren’t wearing panty hose.

          I don’t think the sheer knee high panty hose like socks didn’t come out until the late 1970s and they were $$$.

          Think how some people think it’s horrible to wear no bra, when the woman is a size DD and wearing shear shirt. That was how wearing no panty hose was looked at in the work place 1960-1980s.

          I had to wear nursing whites with @#$%÷= panty hoses. I wore white slacks and nursing shoes. The male RNs got away with white ankle socks. I could not.

          My sister is still required to wear panty hose and closed toe shoes at her work place. No business casual there.

          Believe me…way back when, a micromanaging boss would check if you wore panty hose or not. I was written up twice for “being out of uniform”. The nursing supervisor was a lunatic, but panty hose was part of the hospital dress code (early 1980s).

          1. Thlayli*

            How could you tell a knee-high or ankle- high from a full length pair just by looking at someone’s feet?

            OP maybe your mum just meant to wear sheer socks rather than full length up to your waist ones.

            Either way this is not the norm nowadays. I normally wear black cotton socks, but on days I need luck I wear stripy socks.

    14. LKW*

      NOPE. Not expected. Professional dress for women has changed significantly in the past 20 years. I know very few women who wear pantyhose at all, even with skirts. I’m talking Sr. Executive level. During the winter some may wear tights, but very few wear pantyhose at all. In fact, pantyhose are viewed as very unfashionable and very behind the times.

      Under pants it makes absolutely no sense unless you’re working in a very cold office and need another layer for warmth and wear tights.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        You have to look really closely, so it’s a pretty gross thing to do, honestly. (It’s the way the fabric lays on nylon vs bare skin. It’s hard to describe, but it’s recognizable if you’re looking. Closely. Uncomfortably closely. Ick.)

        1. CubicleShroom#1004*

          Now there are panty hose type knee highs, but back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, you just looked at the ankle or top of the foot that wasn’t covered by shoe. I was not allowed to wear socks, so pretty easy to see.

          I had a supervisor who would ask you to pull your pant leg up to see “if you were out of uniform”.

          Good times…NOT.

    16. She who wears pants with trouser socks*

      I’m curious, have you ever asked your mom why this is so important to her? And why “control top” pantyhose?

      She who wears pants with trouser socks

    17. The OG Anonsie*

      This is a Thing from the vein of weird and controlling “proper ladies do all this crazy crap and if you don’t do crazy crap then you’re somehow being lewd and lascivious” workplace advice, which AFAIK emerged during the big moves of women into the workplace as a subtle backlash. My mom had similar Things as she came of age in the thick of that, as did my college major’s career advisor.

      It also might be regional, because my mom is southern but my career advisor was… not, I’m not sure where she was from though. Their advice was similar in level of bizarreness but opposite in spirit. Think “a lady always wears lipstick” vs “makeup is too sexy and is verboten in the workplace.”

    18. JD*

      My grandma still and always has done this. It must be a generational thing. I wear tights, with skirts, just for fashion purposes but you wont get me into a pair of hose to save my life….well, maybe during some bedroom activities ha.

    20. Delphine*

      I would have asked your mom why, if pantyhose under pants are a part of dressing professionally, do we not see men putting pantyhose on under their slacks?

    21. kb*

      I’m pretty sure you can safely put this aside in the “antiquated advice that doesn’t apply” category. Pantyhose, especially those with control areas, prevent jiggling of the butt and thigh, which was simultaneously considered unattractive and too alluring. You have to be looking pretty closely to tell, which apparently people back in the day were. Hopefully nobody is looking that intently today, but if they are, most people would agree that is their problem.

      1. Thlayli*

        Oh! That actually makes sense. Preventing your milkshake from bringing all the boys to the yard may have been quite important back in the day if you wanted to be taken seriously.
        Not really important now though in most places you can have a wobbly bottom and still be taken seriously as a professional.

    22. M is for Mulder*

      Among my many questions, the one that rises to the top is: does this assume that every woman NEEDS control top pantyhose? Because I was quite thin in my twenties and thirties. (I’m not now.)

    23. Not So NewReader*

      Is your mother about 90 years old? Mine would say this and if she were still alive she would be about 90.

      Look around and copy what the people around you are doing. If you see every. single. woman wearing pantyhose under her slacks then copy that. I am betting that you won’t find many if you find anyone at all.

      Her advice worked in her day. Things have changed.

      I haven’t worn pantyhose under slacks in probably 20 years. I hate putting them on, too.

    24. MissDisplaced*

      It’s very OLD SCHOOL.
      I’ve heard of some women doing this though. I think the basic idea is that the panty hose gave one a smooth look under dress slacks and/or provided a lining of sorts under light colored slacks or wool itchy type pants. Could be it was also to have lining for the shoes instead of knee-hi’s?

      While see-though pants or panty lines are still not appropriate, I think more modern alternatives such a Spanks are now the norm. Same goes with high heels! Flats are perfectly proper in most (almost all) workplaces.

  39. DJ*

    Can a dress paired with leggings be business casual? I’m thinking of a dress that would otherwise be considered okay. I *hate* pantyhose, but would like to wear some dresses. And with the weather getting colder, I’d prefer something more substantial that pantyhose.

    Also, any tips for dressing business casual while pregnant would be appreciated!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I frequently wear tights or leggings under my skirts and dresses and haven’t ever had anyone say anything about it.

    2. Murphy*

      I think leggings are fine.

      I wore a lot of empire waist style blouses and maternity dress pants when I was pregnant. I kept wearing nonmaternity cardigans in the spring, since I didn’t button them anyway. My office is cold, so I only had one maternity dress, but you could easily do that as well.

    3. Tea Fish*

      I think leggings are a little on the casual side, especially if you can see the ankle– but if you’ve got ankle boots or boots in general and they’re not particularly distinguishable from tights/pantyhose, it’s not bad. Also, opaque & all one color block leggings are better than ones with patterns or textures.

      My coworker was pregnant while dressing business casual/conservative, and she was able to pick up a few pairs of pants that have sort of a “yoga top”– very loose, stretchy, comfy, while being pressed and sharp business pants from the hips down. I’m not sure what brand they were, but they definitely exist! Paired with a niceish blouse of any stripe, and she looked very sharp.

    4. Emi.*

      I think leggings *or* tights would be fine, with the caveat that the leggings-socks boundary can look more casual than just tights descending into your shoes. If you’re wearing booties that cover it up, I don’t think it matters, but with pumps I’d stick to fleece tights if your office is more business than casual. (My office is more casual than business, and my pregnant coworker wore leggings with tunics and no one cared.)

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        I agree, curious as to why tights weren’t proposed as an option rather than immediately jumping to leggings. The only reason I would wear leggings rather than tights under a dress would be if the dress were on the edge of being short, or if it wasn’t SO cold and I wanted to wear open toed shoes. I agree leggings under a dress, except in rare circumstances, is a much more casual look than dress/tights.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      I hope so, because I do it. Although, I have to say, many dresses that look fine without leggings would look weird with them – have you considered warm tights, maybe even fleece-lined tights?

      I mostly stuck to tunic-length tops and leggings when pregnant, but I had a few dresses. I had a summer baby, so cold temps weren’t an issue.

      1. JD*

        Oh can we talk about fleece lined tights. I so love them. I wish i didn’t live in miserable So Cal where it has been 99 degrees.

        1. DDJ*

          They’re awesome. They’re so comfy it’s like wearing PJs at work, which is a bonus. If not for fleece-lined tights, I wouldn’t be able to wear dresses for most of the winter. But I live in Calgary so they’re not really an uncommon thing here!

    6. strawberries and raspberries*

      Doing it right now. Looks fine. My only caveat is that sometimes Lycra leggings can be a little clingy, so you might find yourself pulling your dress away from yourself as you walk, depending on the fabric.

    8. Specialk9*

      Absolutely dress + leggings is business casual! Especially with boots, which in turn keep you warmer. Ankle boots to calf high to knee high, all good.

      I’m a big fan of Ebay for pregnancy stuff. Super cheap and perfect for that short stretch of time.

      I love wrap dresses and wrap blouses for pregnancy. They can go outward, then cinch back in after the baby, so no special maternity anything needed.

      Another trick – for dressing in general but especially as the baby bump pulls your front hem up – you can layer skirts under dresses for extra coverage and/or a pop of color. Just match the shape – an A line dress would need a flare skirt, a sheath dress would need a pencil skirt.

      I bought one pair of black maternity trousers from Gap that are amazing, and wish I had bought more now that my size has been discontinued. I still wear those pants all the time – super comfy but look so sharp.

  40. Meg*

    So I have a great problem: I work for a company and in an industry that many people are trying to break into, and I’m hiring someone for the first time. While we were initially worried about the depth of our candidate pool, our top four candidates are all really strong — strong enough that I honestly wish I could hire them all! I can’t, of course, and I’m already dreading writing the rejection emails. If you were in the candidates’ shoes, is there anything a hiring manager could tell you that would ease the pain a bit? I honestly thought they were all great and capable of doing this job well and am looking for language that would genuinely convey that. Everyone here always has such great insight, thanks in advance!

    1. Bec*

      Unless you’re going to refer them to a similar job, I doubt you could ease the pain because the end result is the same. If you tell them how great they were they’re likely to hear “you’re good, but not good enough”.

      If you have time to give feedback then that might be useful but it sounds like you don’t really have advice on how they can improve. Maybe suggestions on where else to look, potential openings, or tips on how to break into the industry if not with this particular job?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think emphasizing that you happened to have several very strong candidates, and strongly encouraging them to apply to any future openings at your organization, would help get that point across.

    3. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      I’ve had an employer tell me before that if they had had two open positions, they would have definitely hired me, which made me feel good.

      I had a more recent situation where the hiring manager told me that I would have been perfect for the role, but the person who got it has worked for the company longer, which made me want to punch someone. But that was different in that it was an internal position, and I know the person who got the job .

    4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I would like to hear that I was a top candidate in a group of very strong candidates. It still stings when you don’t get it, but knowing that the competition was very strong makes it easier for me.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      If you mean it sincerely, you could ask if you could hold onto their resumes and contact info in case you have future openings.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        +1
        “We had a particularly strong pool of candidates and unfortunately we will not be able to offer you the position. However, we all thought you were great and I strongly encourage you to reach out to me directly if/when a similar position opens up.” Or, if you’re willing, let them know you’ll reach out to them if/when a similar position opens up. But only if you really think you would do that.

        1. Drew*

          I’ve sent something similar in the past. “We received a number of applications and yours was one of the best. Choosing among several equally qualified candidates was extremely difficult, and I am sorry to say that you were not selected. I plan to retain your resume and hope that you will allow me to contact you if a similar position should open up in the future.”

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I just got a rejection email that was personal to me (vs. canned) and it amounted to “You impressed us but we’re looking for more X experience for this specific role. We’d like to keep you in mind for possible future positions. Best of luck!”

      I felt it was just the right tone, but I did know it was a stretch (because I don’t have direct X experience, just transferable skills) so it didn’t hurt much in general. I also have seen the past comments that some people will argue if you give them a reason like “more X experience” but it was helpful to me to have that specificity, if only because I agreed with that rationale.

      I agree with the suggestions to mention that all the finalists were excellent candidates.

  41. shep*

    When an internal candidate applies for an opening, but you know they’re totally unsuited to the position, what’s the etiquette for handling said applicant? I’ve heard internal applicants at many workplaces are usually granted interviews as a courtesy, but what’s your experience?

    This is likely something that’s going to unfold at my partner’s workplace. It’s a very small company, and one person in particular is probably going to apply for the new opening. This person has had several performance and interpersonal/insubordination issues crop up, but likely feels entitled to the position because she already works in the office, and it would be a slight pay increase. I think giving her an interview would make sense if she just had a few performance issues, but some of the behavior she’s shown in the office is too combative and disruptive to warrant even that, I think. I feel like it would essentially be rewarding bad behavior, i.e., “you can act like this and still be at least nominally considered for a promotion”.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Does the company require that applicants disclose to their current managers that they’re applying for an internal transfer before they do it? If so, the employee’s manager should tell her, “You’re welcome to apply, but I’m going to have to be honest with Fergus Hiringmanager about X, Y, and Z issues you’re working on.”

      And then let the hiring manager make the call on whether she wants to bother interviewing this person. I wouldn’t!

    2. Murphy*

      I think courtesy interviews waste people’s time. But with an internal candidate, it might be nice to talk to them and let them know why they’re not getting an interview/what they could do to be considered in the future.

    3. fposte*

      I generally don’t worry about the moral hazard component; an interview isn’t a reward. However, it sounds to me like this person should have been terminated already, so I’m wondering what her manager is up to. Certainly if she applies the manager needs to be ready to have a direct conversation with her about why her performance not only doesn’t make her candidate for promotion, it’s actively endangering her job. This isn’t a boilerplate rejection situation.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I feel like it would essentially be rewarding bad behavior, i.e., “you can act like this and still be at least nominally considered for a promotion”.

      Conversely, it could also say “We value our current employees, and if you apply for a job that you’re qualified for, you will, at a minimum, get an interview.” Which I don’t think is a bad thing to say, especially since it’s likely to be followed with “but if you aren’t qualified, or if you behave badly, you’re not getting the job.”

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the appropriate thing to do would be for the hiring manager to have a private talk with the applicant and tell her that they’re considering other candidates for the position. If she were a great worker otherwise but just not well-suited for this position, I’d probably worry about couching it diplomatically or trying to give her other ways to grow professionally, but if she already has several performance issues, including insubordination, the best-case scenario would be her getting frustrated at not even being considered for the position, and then quitting.

    6. Dotty*

      I had this crop up a few months back – a guy from another team applied to a higher role in my team. Normally we always interview internal candidates but I knew this guy would be a ‘no’ because of interpersonal and performance issues in his current job. I didn’t grant him an interview but I did set up a meeting – I thanked him for his application but told him that I couldn’t progress it while he still needed to prove himself in his existing role – I gave him some feedback about what I’d be looking for in the future that he could take or leave but I didn’t waste his time (or mine) with a courtesy interview

    7. Morning Glory*

      From the other side of this, I had applied for a 3-month secondment in another department through a specific program via HR. After a month of silence, the hiring managers asked to ‘get coffee and chat’ – during the chat they told me they were under the impression I was not eligible for the secondment* but still wanted to talk to me in vague terms about my interests and my qualifications, as they would in a courtesy interview.

      I would have much preferred an email letting me know I did not get it. No need to talk about my interests no need to pull me away from my work on a busy day – just a short note letting me know. A courtesy interview feels like a nice gesture, but it’s really an unkind thing to do.

      *This was incorrect. I’d noted the program and HR’s approval in my initial application email, and cover letter. I also clarified this in the meeting, and it appeared to make zero difference to them.

    8. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      I don’t think they should be granted an interview. I recently applied for two internal positions that were both a step up (one in my department and one outside of my department). I was actually super concerned that my interview or the one in my department was just a courtesy interview. I didn’t want to waste my time and energy if I wasn’t actually going to be seriously considered. I ended up talking to the hiring manager about it (who used to be my direct manager and who I have a strong report with), and she assured me that it wasn’t a courtesy. My anxiety stemmed not from performance issues though, it came form being the youngest person they are interviewing and impostor syndrome.

      But my point is, as an applicant, I think it is far kinder to be upfront with people that to waste their time with a courtesy interview.

    9. Princess Carolyn*

      Ideally, her manager or some other appropriate person would explain that they’re declining to interview her because of performance issues A, B, and C. If they would consider hiring her for an internal position in the future when she’s resolved those issues, that would be a helpful thing to share. If they really don’t see her advancing in this company because of A, B, and C, it would be a kindness to tell her that, too.

      Interviewing her as a courtesy sends the wrong message, but declining to interview her without any explanation doesn’t send the right message either. A lot of people (and especially the kind of person you might describe as “entitled”) will interpret the snub as office politics or an issue of qualifications; it’s unlikely she’d attribute it to her performance issues.

  42. DaniCalifornia*

    My awesome job has turned toxic over the last year, and now it is *literally* toxic. We recently had a rat issue in our AC/attic vents. We caught another dead one and it smelled bad so pest control came out to remove it. He mentioned that we had birds in the attic and that’s how the rats were getting in. He also said there is bird poop all over the attic, insulation, vents, etc and we are breathing that in when the AC kicks on. My boss is denying we have a bird problem and said we didn’t have one until we had a rat problem. The birds have been nesting in our historic building ever since I came here. The city has even mentioned to us before that it’s a problem and we could be cited. My boss just doesn’t want to spend the money. I just thought my allergies were worse since I work in a building over 125 years old.

    I thought I was done with this job before but now I truly am.

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      Also, anyone aware of OSHA laws or have any suggestions where to go from here. I work in TX. I am thinking of looking up city laws first and reaching out anonymously to them. We are a small office (10 or less employees)

      1. Grits McGee*

        Not an expert, but starting at the city level is probably your best bet. They’ll be the most knowledgeable about the regulations in your particular area (esp if there are exceptions for historic buildings), and may be more responsive than enforcement at the state or federal level.

        1. LCL*

          Yeah, start with whatever city agency said it was a problem and that there could be citations involved. And if your boss is that cheap, realize he may try to assign you all to clean it up. There are companies that specialize in this kind of cleanup, don’t let him pass it off to you.

        2. Anon Accountant*

          I’d start with the city too. And right after that OSHA.

          I’d think there’s be certain “protocol” for cleanup of the birds and rats. Such as specific procedures and requirements for ventilation replacements or such.

          And how horrifying and gross.

          1. Artemesia*

            This is a huge risk for toxoplasmosis and other bird borne disease that can be pretty serious. Needs to be taken care of for everyone’s health.

          2. DaniCalifornia*

            There is no way in hell I would clean that up. We manage a commercial property that had a pigeon problem and it is extremely toxic not to mention expensive to clean it up ($4K!!)

            1. TL -*

              In terms of business and building management, $4K really isn’t that much money, even in TX. Especially for a commercial property. If your boss/business is balking at numbers like that, I’m not sure their expectations are realistic, which could impact how they handle the rat/bird situation.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      He mentioned that we had birds in the attic and that’s how the rats were getting in.

      I’m picturing the birds physically bringing the rats and now I’m kind of horrified.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Lol thank you for that. I think I’ve yelled and cried about this job 10 times this week (in private) but not much laughter has been had. Esp since my awesome coworker is leaving. But this made me laugh at my desk.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Just bring in some snakes to take care of the rats.

          Then a mongoose to take care of the snakes.

          I have no idea how to handle a mongoose infestation, though.

  43. Lalaith*

    I’d like to hear from my fellow web developers out there. I’m currently job hunting, and there are a few things I’ve been asked by recruiters/hiring people that I’m not sure what to do with.

    1) Some of them ask me what industry I prefer to work in. I guess I don’t have enough experience to answer this, because I don’t know why it should matter. Are there big differences in the type of work a web dev does between industries?

    2) Some have asked me for a portfolio. Is it common for developers to have a portfolio? I can understand a designer having one, but I just don’t know how to convey my work on development projects in that way.

    1. Michaela*

      Re: 2. yes, it’s very common. If your stuff is on GitHub or Bitbucket, a link to that might suffice; but having a portfolio repo is a good idea — code samples, the comps you were given (Sketch or psd files, the style guide, whatever), whatever you legally can show people.

      1. Lalaith*

        I don’t have any of that any more, though – I was laid off at the end of July, and we had an internal code repository. I honestly never thought this was something I’d need for projects completed for my employer (and I don’t know what they would allow to be shared outside the company).

        1. Michaela*

          Do you have anything from open-source work, your own playing with tools, a college class? Because it is totally normal for people to want to see your code; a lot of places will put you through a code challenge but will also request samples so they know what you do in a production environment.

    2. Specialk9*

      My husband made an online portfolio. He made some code that pulled publicly available information and mapped it in a way that is useful. It explained which tools and methods he used. He did it specifically for job hunting, to show his skillset.

  44. Audiophile*

    There are a ton of changes happening in my department and I’m pretty unsettled by it all.

    We had two new people start this week and their arrival was announced just one day before.

    In a week, our department head is leaving. The search hasn’t really started to replace this person.

    Potentially, there may be another staffing addition in the near future, who I may eventually report to.

    I’m trying to go with the flow but unsure of how stable my job may be after all. The company itself is stable though, which is good.

    I will say, if things do not work out, I am confident I can get a really good reference from this job and not a lukewarm one like with previous places.

    1. Mallows*

      I’d be edgy too. Our CEO is retiring early this year after a major operations change and I think a lot of people are trying to decide how much to read into it.
      Glad you can unquestionably get a good reference though!

  45. SophieChotek*

    I have been re-reading the old letters about references.
    So in many ways, most of the work that makes me most qualified for jobs for which I am currently seeking, is my current job. (But for obvious reasons I do not want to put my current supervisor as my reference.) But my remaining references mostly know me from a) really old jobs 7-10 years ago or b) jobs that are not particularly aligned with jobs I am applying for (like my manager at the coffee shop where I pick up the odd shift but I am applying to be the assistant administration coordinator or the assistant donor program associate)…

    Any suggestions? Or will employers understand that?

    1. Jimbo*

      Do you have references from your current job that are not your supervisor? I’ve used former colleagues (usually more senior folks outside my immediate department who know my work) as references even though they did not supervise me in cases when I could not give my direct supervisor as the reference. Another idea is if you had done volunteer work or belong to a networking/professional organization or association of peers in your field for a number of years. Perhaps senior folks in that group who know you well and can speak to your knowledge and experience in the field might be good sources of references.

  46. Potatoe*

    My current company was recently acquired by another company– my old boss was retiring. Though it’s meant learning a bunch of new processes, rules, and programs, I’m happy to still be here and happy to still have a job doing mostly the same stuff. The leadership at the new company seems pretty solid.

    The thing is, my old boss and his partner, who was the office manager, deliberately collected a bunch of money from clients right before the merger, sticking the new company with a load of work and no payment for that work. Understandably, a lot of the clients were upset by this, and some of them voided checks and reversed credit card charges as a result, which also upset my old boss & his partner, because they felt very much entitled to that money. They’ve been reaching out to me, asking me to contact those clients and ask them to un-reverse charges, send new checks, and also to collect payment due from old bills. To a point, I’ve assisted them, especially if it was legitimately related to ongoing cases, while we were right in the middle of the whole merger business, but it’s been a few months now and I…. don’t want to call up clients anymore to request money on behalf of my old boss, who did something fairly crappy to them. I’m pretty sure this wouldn’t sit too well with my new bosses either.

    But on the other hand these are the people who will be providing my references for my last few years of work, and they’ve been alternating promising/denying an overdue bonus check that was supposed to come in a few months back. I don’t want to piss them of either, and if at all possible, I’d love to be able to persuade them to send over my bonus. Any recommendations, advice, scripts for gently turning down requests to make more calls, etc. would be welcome.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t know that I have advice, but you are contacting the clients for your old boss who did something kinda…shady? If they didn’t deliver the work, why do they have the right to any money? And your new bosses don’t know you are doing this? Is your old boss retired? It’s been several months of this? I feel like if I were one of your new bosses and knew you were contacting the (my now) clients on behalf of old boss especially for money, this would not make me happy. Like, firing level not happy. Also, I think you can kiss that bonus goodbye. What incentive to pay it do they have now? Alison has had many letter writers ask how to gracefully stop doing work for their old companies. Something along the lines of, “I am sorry, I am no longer able to help with that.”

      1. Potatoe*

        It’s kind of complicated but basically my old boss felt that under the terms he negotiated in the merger, he’d get to keep everything he could collect prior to the Official Merge, whether or not he’d done the work, and the new company would just pick it all up where he left off. (I believe in his mind, anything he wasn’t able to cajole the clients into paying immediately would be going to the new firm, so it “”evened out.””) New boss isn’t thrilled about this, but ultimately didn’t want to kick up a fuss since this in theory is a amiable handover and old boss is dying of a terminal illness.

        You’re right though, in that the more I type the shadier it sounds. So far I’ve only done it for matters where this whole arrangement was agreed upon by old and new bosses (“Alright, I guess that money will go to old boss and we’ll eat the costs and get it done.”) so I’ve considered it part of finalizing things for the merger, but we’re a bit past that point now and it probably will be best just to extricate myself.

    3. Specialk9*

      You need to run this situation past the new management, not the old. That’s how mergers work. This sounds shady bordering on illegal. You do not want to be the one holding the bag on this one. You can do it innocently, asking advice for how to do one specific thing, but telling them the relevant other stuff, particularly that X instructed you to do these actions.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I think you need to speak to new boss. Show them the e-mails or messages you’re getting and ask them how they would like you to proceed.

      It seems a really weird way to do things – I would normally expect the new company to do all of the work and take any payment, and that the company might then make a further payment to Old Boss if one was due under the terms of the merger.

      In terms of references, wouldn’t New Boss be the person doing that, if/when you move on?>

      So far as the bonus is concerned, I think you can treat that as a totally separate issue and remind Old Boss about his promises, but unless you have something in writing I’d be surprised if you get it.

  47. Felicity*

    My position recently shifted to being mainly communications focused. I have *some* experience/background in this area but I’m finding it stressful given the audience and impact of the work I’m doing. I definitely have some imposter syndrome. Also social media really stresses me out given how many stories there are about tweets blowing up into a sh*t storm.

    Any tips or resources would be much appreciated around the following:

    – managing social media accounts
    – social media metrics and goal setting
    – growing social media accounts
    – writing publications like annual reports
    – writing and ghost writing op-eds and other pieces for press
    – pitching stories/articles
    – writing for web
    – how to build strong websites in terms of user experience

    Writing that out makes me realize how much I’m really doing now in comms work!!

    1. Meg*

      Buffer is a social media management company (that I’m not affiliated with at all, just to clarify), but they also do a lot of content marketing on their blog (Google “Buffer blog”) that has tons of helpful social media tips about building and engaging with your audience. I believe they have a podcast, as well. Good luck!

    2. J.*

      HubSpot also has a great marketing blog with tips and advice about pretty much everything you’ve listed here. Good luck!

    3. SophieChotek*

      Spin Sucks is a blog I follow that discusses many of these topics, as does Social Media Marketer

    4. Jimbo*

      Hi there I am a web and comms guy as well! You didn’t mention what sector you worked in but in my field (nonprofits) there are a lot of online communities devoted to tactics, strategies, knowledge sharing, for web, social media and digital communications. Here is one of my favorites: https://community.nten.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer?communitykey=52c25137-d6f9-4bea-873f-45bf76ecdd0f&tab=digestviewer another I would recommend is http://www.nptechforgood.com/

    5. Felicity*

      Thank you all! This is really helpful- couldn’t say what industry without outing myself on here. Really appreciate everyone’s thoughts!

  48. Database Geek*

    Another week of job searching has come and gone… Had an interview yesterday (but they’re at the beginning of their search so who knows) and then finally heard back from one place I had had a second interview with saying they were going with someone else. I would like a job please! I suppose I should at least be grateful that I’m getting phone screens and interviews – so one of these someone is going to say yes, right?

    1. Jimbo*

      I hear you! I am on the same boat and my recent experiences with a good number of phone screens, 2nd interviews only to not get the job is similar to what you described. My savings is slowly shrinking and I could use a job soon!

  49. Librarian Ish*

    What do you do when someone does something kind of sketchy, but the person who they did it to doesn’t want to make waves?

    We’ve been moving offices this week, so there’s been a ton of activity getting desks rearranged, bookcases moved, etc. Although we streamlined it as much as possible, moving all the furniture fell on our maintenance. It was a lot all at once, but definitely within the realm of normal requests.

    One person was pretty grumbly about it, but I figured it was the usual complaining about your job and even though it was a little uncomfortable for me, I felt pretty comfortable making jokes but still getting the furniture moved.

    One person in particular though made a coworker really uncomfortable. She was asking for a particular table to be moved in there – she’s got some medical concerns so she needed a table at a particular height. When she tried to explain this to the person he “jokingly” said “I don’t need you to hear what I’m going to say to her”, and “pretended” to get the other movers to leave the room and started to shut the door.

    She relayed this to me the next day and I expressed that I was horrified by it and that she should consider talking to our dean. I told her that this guy has a habit of crossing boundaries a little bit (putting his hand on your back without asking permission, for example) but that “joke” went way too far and that she has a right to be upset by it. She shrugged it off and I don’t think she’s going to tell anyone else.

    What’s my responsibility here? I don’t want to violate her privacy by talking with the dean, but I don’t know how else I can point out this guy’s problematic behavior without someone knowing that story.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should respect her choice, but you can also encourage her to document anything else that happens, in case she does later want to come forward and say something officially.

    2. Specialk9*

      Wait so what happened? She needed furniture and he got the movers to leave without helping her? Or he shut *himself* in with her after saying he was going to be inappropriate?

      And yeah, I know EXACTLY that person (in my experience a guy, but humans will human) who creeps on people but hides behind ‘joking’. That person is testing the waters for getting away with worse. Ignoring that kind of creep emboldens them.

      1. Librarian Ish*

        He acted like he was going to shut himself in with her, by making the comment that he didn’t want the movers hearing what he was going to say to her in there and pushing the movers out/starting to shut the door.

        1. Thlayli*

          I still don’t understand. Was the problem that he refused to give her the table? Or was the problem that he made remarks that he thinks of as flirty/funny and you think of as harassment?
          If it’s the former then offer to help your colleague with acquiring the desk she needs, and advise her she can report him for refusing to do his job.
          If it’s the latter then it’s not your opinion that matters it’s hers. You may have been horrified and offended if he said something like that to you, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to feel the same way. If someone say that to me I’d probably laugh and make a joke back. if your colleague is not upset by it then she’s not obligated to report it. If she was upset but is afraid to report it then offer to help her report it. It’s how SHE feels about it that’s important, not his you think she should feel.

  50. PM-NYC*

    Bit of a job search vent with a couple questions.

    So the job search continues. I’m getting increasingly dejected over the fact that I’ve had pretty much zero positive response from jobs I’ve applied to. I had one temp agency get back to me with what turned out to be a part time job with an hourly rate so low I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills.

    Following Alison’s advice that if you’re not getting any responses it’s because of your materials, I’m trying to tweak my cover letters and possibly my resume. I went to a free resume/cover letter critique service, but he gave me a lot of advice which is pretty much the opposite of what I’ve heard here. He talked about keywords, and thinks I should add both a summary section, and a core skills section to the top of my resume, so that hiring managers can quickly scan it rather than have to read the whole resume. I’m pretty sure that is terrible advice right?

    I’m open to editing my resume, it’s just frustrating when you’re looking for a position in a field that apparently the average resume critique person doesn’t have a good grasp of (or maybe that’s uncharitable of me, it just seemed like he didn’t really know what I was aiming for.)

    Alison, I know you talked about maybe opening up a round of resume critiques in the near future, any chance that’s still a possibility?

    Any other advice from folks here is welcome, I’m just really frustrated and finding it really hard to stay positive each day.

    1. shep*

      The critique suggestions do seem to go opposite the grain of the advice Alison gives. I’m also so sorry you’re going through this rough patch with job searching. I had a similar search a few years ago that was largely fruitless.

      I don’t know if this is helpful at all, but in hindsight, I see why I had trouble. There were some things I couldn’t control, and some things I could’ve done differently (but it was brutal, regardless):

      -Poor job market (beyond my control)
      -Very new to workforce (beyond my control)
      -Recently graduated with my master’s degree (should’ve taken it off of my resume for most applications)
      -Applying for jobs in my field that typically have [unpaid and unspoken] internship pre-requisites (should’ve applied sparingly/not expected results)
      -Applying for highly competitive jobs only slightly related to my field (should’ve applied sparingly/not expected results)
      -Applying for hourly jobs at chain coffee shops, etc., as a last-ditch effort to at least supplement my income (should’ve left one or both my degrees off my resume)
      -Registering with temp agencies/recruiters poorly suited to my skills/field (should’ve not bothered and/or not relied on results so heavily; couldn’t find temp agencies/recruiters that focused on my skills)

      I wish I’d been more proactive about trying to find positions that fit my qualifications that weren’t so (1) inaccessible because I couldn’t afford to intern, or (2) required a ton of industry experience already. I’m still honestly kind of at a loss as to how I could’ve honed that search, but I think I’d be slightly more savvy at finding those ways now.

      Again, this is probably not that helpful, but I totally commiserate, and I wish you the best of luck. It will get better.

      1. PM-NYC*

        Thanks, I’ll have to think about what things I can do differently. I think one of my issues is that when I did a cross country move two years ago I had a ridiculously easy job search, so I think this time around I came in with rose-colored glasses. I really need to let go of the idea that just because it was easy last time doesn’t mean it’ll be easy this time around.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There’s nothing wrong with a summary section but he sounds generally bad — free resume critique services usually are.

      I’m not sure yet re: an upcoming resume review offer. If I do it, I’ll announce here ahead of time so people have advance notice!

  51. BookCocoon*

    So I thought my new supervisor was a little insecure because from the moment she arrived (this is 8 months ago now) she’s seemed threatened by me in a weird way, like anytime I tried to help her out by giving her information about the organization she would immediately and aggressively disagree with me. She also refuses to admit when something is her fault and is hesitant to seek out information that would make her look like she doesn’t know what’s going on, so instead she is just always ordering me to do things that I’m already doing. I checked in periodically with our director (her supervisor) to get advice and be like, “This is just weird and you should know about it.” Anyway this all culminated in having to sit down with our director and do a mediation between us, which included her giving me 10 minutes of feedback about things she has never mentioned ever. (She is my SUPERVISOR and has never given me ANY feedback.) I thought I was going to feel attacked and defensive but hearing things from her perspective makes me realize just how genuinely screwed up she is and I feel really sad for her. Like she must have serious, serious self-esteem issues and insecurity. She talked about situations where she told me to do something and I said, in genuine confusion, “Oh, I actually already do that. Was there something I should be doing differently?” except in her version I cut her off and said, “I already do that” in a tone like she was a complete moron. I also quoted her things she had said to me and she did NOT believe me that she’d ever said them even though some of them were literally written down in emails. We’re supposed to be each coming up with an action plan for what we will do differently and I’m struggling with how to even put it together because her version of what I should do is like “Don’t make fun of her” even though I’ve never made fun of her ever. So I’m trying to write things like “Speak in a kind and patient way.” It honestly just makes feel sad that the inside of her head is such a scary place for her that it’s twisting things said in a neutral or friendly way into a cruel and mocking tone in which I apparently convey what an idiot she is.

    I was already looking for a new job, but this just confirmed that things aren’t going to get better unless she gets some serious therapy.

    1. Mandy*

      I don’t know if this applies in particular to Supervisor, but I run into this with some friends of mine who have various degrees of depression and social anxiety, I sometimes don’t know how to handle the cognitive distortion that comes along with it. It can make interacting with them difficult sometimes.

      1. TL -*

        You can’t do this with bosses but with my friends, I say, “That may be what you heard, but that is not what I said. I said X and I meant X,” and then I basically respond to anything with, “Okay, but I said X and I meant X,” and a subject change. I feel I very much have the right to be annoyed when someone is constantly attributing words or intentions to me that I never had; it’s really insulting to me, honestly, especially since I’m a direct person and people generally know where they stand with me.

        A misunderstanding gets an apology (sometimes I come off wrong or misunderstand something!) but someone saying, “You didn’t want to go to the movies with me so you clearly hate my taste in movies/hate me!” gets the above response.

    2. Rookie Manager*

      I had a manager like this, hate to be the bearer of bad news but ultimately the solution was to quit. One complaint she had was that when we had a long email convo I would reduce the greeting/closing in later emails and that was really sharp and rude. So Every. Single. Email. had to start ‘Hi Manager’ and end ‘Kind regards RM’. Yet she told me with glee once how she used to say stuff to her b-i-l that the words were kind but the tone was evil. She hid applications for training/pay reviews for me, lied about me to other team member and accussed me of bullying her.

      In the end I quit to fix my mental health. My advice till you escape is back up every thing by email, be ridiculously polite, never make jokes, try to avoid private conversations, always make your own notes in 121s etc. Good luck and sorry you’re going through this.

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, quitting was my solution too. The boss I worked for was very psychologically twisted or something. She would target someone for elimination and from that point on, there was nothing her victim could do. It was horrifying to watch, and even more horrifying when I became the subject of her focus. The last straw was when she wrote a numbered list of items for me to do and said that #1 was the top priority (makes sense, yes?). The timeline was tight but I got it done with hours to spare. She then claimed that #1 was never the top priority; why on earth would I think it *was*? (Um, maybe because it was at the top of a list with a “#1” by it and you said it was?)

        There is no way to win against that, especially when upper management turns a blind eye. Leaving was very scary but it was the best decision ever. For me; YMMV.

  52. Meyla*

    If everyone else at your company is jumping ship, is that a sign that you should too?
    My company has struggled since our acquisition by 3-letter-Fortune-1oo-company less than 2 years ago. My team was 29 people at the beginning of this year, and as of Monday we will be down to 15 (9 layoffs, 5 quits). We are so stressed working 10 hour days during the week and 5 hour days on weekends. Perks we had last year have been cut this year. My pre-acquisition coworkers hate the changes that parent company put in place and I know they’re all looking for new jobs. The tension between execs is practically tangible. That being said, my coworkers are much more upset over it than I am. I came onto the team a month after the acquisition, so it’s been kinda crazy the whole time I’ve been here. I don’t love the situation, but it’s better than my last job so maybe I’m a little jaded. If everyone else is jumping ship, should I be doing so also? Am I crazy for wanting to ride it out a bit longer before making a decision? I almost see this as an opportunity for me become more senior and valuable…

    I’m also a little biased because I HATE interviewing and meeting new people and learning new company cultures, and I’d like to avoid that process for as long as possible. I feel like I got very lucky with this job because I enjoy my coworkers and I fit in very well. I don’t think I’d find as good of a culture fit again.

    1. JN*

      Only you can judge whether or not to stick it out at this company or follow the lead of these coworkers you like and look for a new job. Yes, it could be a red-flag type of situation that so many people who have been working there for (apparently) quite some time have started jumping ship in the past couple years. Clearly they’re comparing the company post-acquisition to what it was pre-acquisition and are deciding that they don’t like where things are going with the loss of benefits, long hours, changes, etc. So it could just be that the new company culture doesn’t suit these longtime employees, but does suit you. In that case, staying put would make sense. But it could also be that this company really is messed up and your past toxic job might not be letting you see clearly just how bad things are or could become at this new company because, as you said “it’s better than my last job”. Which doesn’t mean that things here are good. Just not as bad as what you came out of.

      If it were me (and I’m also someone who hates the job search/interview process), having a team of 15 people trying to do the work that it used to take 30 people to do, working 10 hour days (~60 hours a week?), plus losing benefits/perks…heck, yeah, I’d be full-speed looking for a new job. But that’s me, not you.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      What are your thoughts on the parent company? To be honest, I’d say that things at your current business don’t look good. But do you have a goal of being absorbed into the larger corporation and being dropped somewhere new eventually? If not, I’d start looking for something new. Your current position doesn’t seem stable.

  53. Lolly Scrambler*

    Posting to say I got a job offer this week and thanks everyone on here for advice and Alison for her book which helped so much. If anyone is really, really struggling with nerves I recommend not only the book but beta blockers (in consultation with your doctor). I had had 20 interviews before getting a prescription but only a few afterwards as I could finally think clearly and not panic at every question I hadn’t prepared for although I had also prepared for a lot of questions. I thought I would never get a job but now that I have I hope everyone else who thinks it is hopeless can take some hope.

    2. LO*

      I suffered from this very same problem. I was such a wreck going into interviews, I would physically shake and stammer at questions. I finally took some natural meds to help me relax and have been doing much better.

      It took me so long to realize that my anxiety was getting in my way and I wish I had thought about this so much sooner!

      1. Lolly Scrambler*

        Glad you solved it in the end! I wish someone had told me there were solutions for the anxiety too.

    3. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      So interesting to hear about the beta blockers! I want to ask my doctor about them for anxiety related sweating which also happens during work presentations or meetings with new people. Did you bring this up with your doctor yourself or did they recommend them? I want to ask but I don’t know if it’s weird to show up at the doctor looking to try a specific group of medication.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Not weird. I used beta blockers for stage fright. I spoke to my doctor and told her that my psychologist had recommended them. You can always say to your doctor that you get stage fright during presentations and you’re interested in trying beta blockers. Your doc might disagree, but it’s not a weird conversation to have.

      2. Lolly Scrambler*

        I mentioned it to my doctor after a friend tried them. I wouldn’t normally ask to try a specific medication but using AvonLady Barksdale’s wording should help make it less weird.

  54. PieInTheBlueSky*

    Have you ever had someone join your organization whose previous workplace was a toxic environment? Did they have patterns of behavior or thinking that they picked up from the toxic workplace that did not fit in your (non toxic) organization? Maybe they adopted these habits because it was the only way they could survive, or maybe they thought that’s how all workplaces were like.

    Was this person able to adapt to your organization and unlearn these habits? How long did it take?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I actually joined my current organization after leaving a toxic one. I was at the toxic place for only a short time, though, so I don’t think their toxic ways seeped into my work approaches. If you’re encountering someone who’s still suffering from PTSD or just carrying on ways from habit, I think it’s okay to point it out to them explicitly and say “You don’t have to do it that way. Try this.”

    2. AndersonDarling*

      The key is if they know they came from a toxic workplace. If they know it was a toxic workplace then they are probably grateful to get out and start fresh. If they don’t recognize it was toxic, then they are probably just a jerk to the core and will stay that way.

    3. Kate*

      Me! Me!

      I came from an extremely toxic workplace to my current one.

      One of the things I did early on was speak to my boss and (close) colleagues and said something to the effect of “I’m coming g from a very toxic workplace and sometimes my Norma might be messed up. If you see me reacting weirdly to something you’ve asked of me, could you raise it with me first? I might need to recalibrate.”

      Obviously that won’t work in every office, but it worked well in mine. And for the most part, I haven’t had huge flare ups of bad workplace behaviour- minus my obvious anxiety over my first performance review since toxic workplace. I’m still cringing a bit over that.

    4. Safe Now*

      That’s me, too – a LONG stretch at a toxic place, and now about six months into a healthy organization. I definitely have some mixed up behavior and thinking that I’m still working through. My boss knows, and she helps by naming the behavior and the thinking when she sees it. She’s also diligent about being neutral and calm with me on all feedback so that it doesn’t feel like the toxic behavior I dealt with for so long.
      I’ve made good progress, and I’m starting to feel something closer to healthy. Be patient, be kind. Where possible, explain how things *do* work in your organization so that it’s easier for the person to see that it’s safe.

    5. clow*

      Yep, I came from an extremely toxic workplace. It was so toxic that during my interview, the supervisor told me he doesn’t need to know why I am leaving, he has heard too many horror stories about the place. I did normalize being afraid and anxious all the time, it hasn’t completely gone, but general reassurance from my manager helps. My understanding is that the amount of time it takes to get over a toxic place and stop relying on survival methods depends a lot on how long you were in the toxic place.

    6. TL -*

      Ugh, I worked in a toxic place where the boss had left a department because of its toxicity but had done nothing in his new department to squash toxicity, so a lot of the behaviours came over.

      but after I left, it took a couple of months to recalibrate. But I was in a really wonderful workplace and I kept on noting all the positive things in my head, which helped.

    7. Writelhd*

      I have a co-worker who worked under me in a training rotation and told me stuff about his old workplace that sounded really toxic. He got promoted to a permanent position after the training rotation because one opened up and he does show a lot of promise. His new position involves feeling a lot of squeeze between competing interests and sometimes departments, not to the level of unhealthy or toxic, but my role feels that squeeze too so I get it. I have noticed he says a lot of “I’m not trying to…(offend, upset, accuse, insert similar word) you” as a preface to things he doesn’t need to because a) the thing is not offensive or hurtful or accusatory and b) the people he’s saying it too aren’t acting like it is. So I have made the connection it might come from a past workplace culture. I’m not his boss anymore but I still work closely with him so I will try to say something to him about it next time it happens.

  55. Former Student*

    After a lot of soul searching, I realized I wanted to pursue medicine. Unfortunately, I need to go back to school to get the prerequisites and have been applying to programs. One of my former professors has written recommendations for me and I really want to thank her as she has written about 10 recommendations. I have been out of school for three years and when I was a student she really advocated for me to win a departmental honor. Any thoughts? Ideas?

    1. Blue Anne*

      Personally, I would hand write a very nice thank you note.

      My mom, who is a recovering academic, would probably send a coffee sampler along with the nice thank you note. :)

    2. Emi.*

      Write her a nice, sincere, thorough letter expressing your gratitude, and then keep in touch when you’re in school so she can see all the places you’ll go!

      1. JaneB*

        Yeah, as an academic who writes a LOT of references for students, I would LOVE to hear from them every year or so about how they’re doing… sometimes I meet one at a conference in our field and they remember me and it totally makes my week to feel I contributed to their life positively

  56. NEW YEAR, NEW ME*

    There is a temp job that I’ve been up for through various placement agencies. Same company, same role. I got an email from a recruiter on Wednesday about it and I replied as soon as I saw. Then left a phone message and a follow up email (yesterday). Haven’t heard back at all. Very frustrated, as this is the third time I’ve been sent info about this opening.

    1. Jules the First*

      If one placement agency has already put you up for it, the others are wasting their time if they put you up for it as well. Accept that this job is not coming to you and move on. (Sorry, that sounds harsh, but I know how hard it is to be super excited about something and not have the employer feel the same way)

    2. Bananka*

      In my industry, it is a big no-no to apply for the same job through multiple recruiters. Once you apply through a recruiter, they would pass your resume along to the company and if you don’t hear back, it means they are not interested. If another recruiter reaches out to you about the same position, you can only let them know you already applied through someone else. Otherwise multiple recruiters will end up sending the same candidate’s resume to the company and it is not a good look for the candidate at all. Not sure if that’s the case with your applications, but sometimes you just never hear back.

      1. Bananka*

        Just wanted to add that recruiters work independently and don’t know the candidates that are coming from other recruiters. When they reach out about a job, it means they think you would be a good fit and have no idea if you applied before unless you tell them. It makes them look bad too, because the company can potentially say why are you sending me this resume that we already looked at.

  57. How to adult*

    You are all such a amazing lovely community! I’m wondering if folks would be comfortable sharing some of their weekly routines?

    This is work-related as I feel like work takes up my whole life even though I work regular hours … I can’t figure out how to stay on top of other things in my life. I seem to manage doing one thing well outside of work, but how do I expand that? For example if I am exercising my house is a disaster. If I’m doing well with cooking then I’m not exercising. If I’m spending time on my hobbies then I’m not eating well. …

    What does a typical day/week look like for you in terms of scheduling life and work?

    1. Jaydee*

      I have finally sort of accepted this and follow two principles: rotation and “good enough.”

      Rotation: last week I didn’t exercise and ate terribly, but I got plenty of sleep and the house is really clean; this week I am focusing on eating better and exercising more, but the sink is full of dishes and there is an entire small dog worth of fur balls rolling across the living room floor.

      Good enough: Ideally I would exercise for 30-60 minutes 5 times a week, but it’s good enough if I go for a 15-20 minute walk at lunch a couple times. Ideally I would complete a whole list of chores every week so the house is always clean. It’s good enough if the dishwasher gets loaded and run most mornings before work, the bed gets made, laundry is put away before it gets wrinkled, and I vacuum often enough to avoid major tumbleweeds.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      Well, you may never strike a perfect balance, so my first tip is to accept that you’ll always be doing better in some areas than in others.

      That said, I rely a lot on scheduling time for stuff. On Saturday mornings, I block out an hour to work on my side projects. Thursdays, I block out time for the gym (also, lunch hour workouts are a great idea if you can make it work). As I type this, I’m realizing I should probably block out time this weekend to clean my house. The calendar prompts usually motivate me enough to at least do some of the stuff I’m supposed to be doing.

      I also block off time each week to plan for the next week: When will I buy groceries (also, consider ordering groceries for pick-up to save time)? When will I work out? When will I do laundry? I look for opportunities to double up on things, like “Do laundry while watching the game Thursday night” or “Pick up prescription on your way to the grocery store.”

    3. Elizabeth H.*

      I too would like to have a better schedule in terms of work/not at work!
      For example, today: woke up at 7:45am or so, talked/engaged in getting ready for work activities with the guy I’m dating who was sleeping over, went into the kitchen and chatted with roommate & cooked bok choy w/garlic and ginger to eat for lunch (this is exceptionally rare that I cook in the morning), left on my bike to go to work (~15 minute bike ride), got into work at 10am, am at work, after work I’m going to bike to yoga (~35 minute bike ride) from 5:45-7:15pm, go home and shower, meet my visiting brother & parents for dinner close to my apartment.

      In a typical week:
      -wake up in time to be late-ish to work, pack or grab something very uncomplicated for lunch. Some days I go out to buy salad for lunch
      -bike to work (15 minutes)
      -work, usually I don’t take a break but I would like to switch to taking a lunch break and working more focused-ly the rest of the time rather than intermittently screwing around mid day (I’m salaried). I usually get there late and want to work through lunch to make it up.
      -if I’m staying late, stay until 6 or 630 or so working. One to two days a week I leave at 5pm so I can go to yoga at 5:45pm. I used to go a LOT MORE and would like to resume.
      -Go home, play with cat, sometimes stop by grocery store. shower, read something (eg newspaper), sometimes the guy I’m dating comes over. This is also when I will eat (I don’t cook a lot, it’s usually something very easy to prepare like frozen vegetables/cereal/takeout/pizza which is fine with me), do chores like take trash or recycle out.
      -Tuesday nights I go over to my friends’ regular hang out night and. I usually do the same Fridays or Saturdays. Once or twice a month or so I meet up with a friend for dinner on a week day after work at about 6-6:30pm.

      I mostly do “activities” on the weekends, like big cleaning projects, going to the library, pet sitting, organizing my files, visiting my parents, or whatever. I don’t have a lot of hobbies but I’m ok with it as it is. Looking at this spelled out my life seems kind of boring! I’m 30 and live in a fantastic, diverse, vibrant urban area with two roommates. After a lot of recent “place in the universe” turmoil I feel like I finally have time to just relax, hang out with friends a lot, not do much, so I have been definitely taking it easy this past few months which has worked out great for me. But as I kind of recover from said turmoil, I’d like to spend more time in dedicated pursuits like focusing on yoga and related physical & spiritual pasttimes, spending time by myself.

    4. How to adult*

      Your comments are all kinda confirming what I’ve been thinking! Either pick 1-2 things to excel at or be okay with things being good enough or not at all…

      Elizabeth H. your comment really resonated with me as our situations are very similar. I’m trying to figure out if I could make better use of my mornings but this would require becoming a morning person!

  58. Talia*

    For all the classified-work people: If someone proclaims to me that they have enemies because of their classified job, may I assume they are full of it or is that a thing that actually happens? (I mean, don’t y’all have rules about saying things like that to people you don’t know that well?)

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Kinda guessing but are they the type of person who has “enemies” everywhere? The claim + insistence makes it sound like they feel like they have enemies and pinning it on work seems convenient.

          Because the only reason I can think of to cause enemies due to the classified job is if they talked about their classified job outside of work, which is Not Done by people in classified jobs.

    2. The IT Manager*

      They’re full of it is a really safe assumption. A lot of classified work is surpringly boring.

      Someone who actually had enemies from their super secret spy/military/assasin job wouldn’t take about it because it’s classified.

    3. Marillenbaum*

      Sometimes–but generally people who are bringing it up to people without a clearance are either full of it or joking.

    4. Thlayli*

      I know a few people who have classified jobs and the only ones that talk about it like that are full of themselves.
      That said, there almost certainly are people who have enemies because of classified stuff they do. I just can’t imagine them telling random people about it. I can imagine if I was one of those people having a conversation like that with a close friend or family member or a partner, but not with a casual acquaintance or a date.

    5. Anonymunicipal*

      Not sure what you mean by classified exactly; I’m not allowed to talk about the details of my job with anyone, but I don’t work for a federal agency by any means. That said, two of my colleagues and I have all had our cars keyed while parked in the employee ramp (they scratched a full word across my passenger door, so I’m pretty sure it wasn’t accidental). Also, I don’t patronize any businesses or services in my jurisdiction anymore. It is just easier to go to the next town over where people don’t know me and I don’t know them. We’re also encouraged not to identify ourselves as municipal employees off-duty (no bumper stickers on cars, no wearing uniforms off-duty for any reason, refer all off-duty questions or requests for service(s) directly to on-duty staff, etc…) That being said, I haven’t really told anyone about these things unless they want to work for my employer and they specifically ask what kind of risks/disadvangages come with the job. I guess it depends on why they were telling you?

      1. Anonymunicipal*

        I should have clarified – I don’t think anyone thinks of me or my colleagues as enemies (nor we them), but probably felt wronged by the municipality itself. Mostly in a ‘you can’t make everyone happy,’ kind of way when you are talking about balancing the needs and wants of millions of people. These few instances when people acted out are the exception, rather than the rule.

  59. Amber Rose*

    I remembered my question this week!

    So, seriously nobody knows what I do all day (including me sometimes). In an effort to help my supervisor out, she requested that I send her an email on Mondays laying out what I’m working on.

    But um. I really don’t know how to do this? Back when I was swamped, as I usually am for summer, it was easy. But for the rest of the year, I kind of just make it up as I go. A pretty decent chunk of my time when we’re busy is sales, but that’s not predictable. The other chunk is requests from other departments, which also varies and comes up suddenly. Because it’s like that, some weeks I plan nothing, and just clean/organize a lot Monday morning and wait for stuff to land on my lap, since it always does. I did come up with a number of things I wanted to do to put in my email this Monday, but I did basically none of them because other stuff came up. But I can’t just send her an email that says, “I got nothing” and I don’t feel like I can send an email that says, “I got none of that stuff done so it’s still on my list.”

    I could mention the things that came up but I worry that I seem flaky that way. The list I sent on Monday had a lot of small random things on it. The list of stuff I got done has maybe three or four previously unmentioned items on it.

    I partly find this whole process frustrating because I guess my manager considers me management level, and the reason nobody knows what I do is because I’m self contained, so why am I reporting to anyone anyway? It’s like they don’t trust that I’m actually working even though I give an update in the weekly staff meeting, write out multi-page quarterly reports for management, and I’m literally involved in everyone’s business and doing work for everyone all the time.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Instead of planning it for the week ahead, can you write it for what you did the week previous? My manager and I share a OneNote list that gets updated with things I need to work on/am waiting for/have completed, and each week a new note gets added, so she can see for the past year (every year a new file starts) what I’ve worked on. She says it makes it much easier on her when it comes time for annual review and when we meet for status updates and so forth.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I can ask her if that will work instead. But some weeks I feel like I get nothing done. I spend a lot of time just reading and researching. I’m still working, it’s just that I still have a lot to learn.

        1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

          Well, when you report what you did to your boss, just make sure you have a line about what you’re researching and how it applies to your job. So instead of say “spent 40 hours reading and researching,” you would say “spent x hours researching melting points of various kinds of chocolates to help teapot department with chocolate teapot task, y hours researching camelids to improve llama grooming processes for llama husbandry department, and z hour researching rice cooking best practices to improve my rice sculpting skills.”

          It might make you feel like you’ve done more and help your boss understand what you do if you break it down like that.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      I think it makes sense to lay out how much of your time you predict you’ll spend on sales and requests from other departments, even if you can’t give specifics. Then explain the other things you’ll be working on as time allows, and make it clear what’s low-priority and what’s not. Basically, make it clear up-front what you’ll be prioritizing.

      It may also be helpful to send a Friday email (are you already doing that? I can’t tell) detailing how you actually spent your time. Something like “I handled [x variable] sales and [y variable] requests from others, and then [whatever other things you accomplished].” That’s going to sound a lot better than “I got nothing on my list done” because you already put the unpredictable stuff on your list.

      I can definitely relate to feeling like your value/productivity is being questioned; a lot of my positions have been self-contained with a lot of ad hoc duties. It helps to intentionally reframe it in your mind as an opportunity to demonstrate how valuable you are.

    3. Undine*

      Could you come up with some boilerplate for the things that will come up? Like “Ongoing availability for triage and support on an as-needed basis for the LLama, Teapot, and Rice Sculpture departments. Typical tasks include deployment of emergency groomers, melted chocolate remediation, and brainstorming about rice-sculpture shipping containers.”

      1. Undine*

        Ah, just saw your note about not getting much done. “Ongoing research into grooming best practices and cutting-edge tools for chocolate remediation.”

    4. Specialk9*

      It sounds like your boss is asking for a prediction of the week, but what she wants is insight into what you actually do. (Which is a reasonable management expectation of you, even though it can chafe when you’re a go getter who is self driven – but my manager often chimes in with big picture company stuff or potential interpersonal landmines, or that perfect simple question that makes me go, hunh, I should do/have done X. So useful and reasonable. But even if not useful to me, still something managers need.)

      Ask if you can do a weekly one-on-one check-in with her, and provide a weekly status report. (So basically the weekly verbal report-out you already do, but likely longer and more in depth.) I have this on my schedule every week, though with both of us being super busy it realistically happens every 2-3 weeks. I go through ny calendar, sent mail, and notes and write it all up, especially highlighting decision points for manager/input or advice needed. Then you can just use the weekly reports, aggregated and slightly tweaked for the quarterly multi page reports. You’re already doing this work, it just changes the timing and adds in a weekly 1:1 check in.

      1. Specialk9*

        Also, I get the feeling that you feel like this manager request is a sign of distrust of you, implying you’re dishonest. But if you can step out of your shoes for a moment and pretend to be your manager, it’s likely this has nothing to do with you and everything to do with her. She’s worried about sounding stupid when her boss asks detailed questions about what her team is doing, or she read a management book that said one must do XYZ, or she’s still trying to learn the business but doesn’t want to admit that. There is often a lot churning away underneath, and framing it as her needing kind hand-holding to help her is going to serve you better, in your unconscious tone and body language, than feeling aggrieved will. Reframing is one of the single most powerful life tools, I’ve found.

  60. AnonforThis*

    Does anyone have advice on how to deal with a supervisor not trusting you?

    First thing first- I don’t know where the distrust is coming from. For some reason, my supervisor just does.not.believe. me when I give estimates for when I’m going to finish projects or how many hours a particular task will take. I don’t know why- I’ve never missed a deadline, I’m actually ahead of schedule with my major responsibilities, I’ve never had any major quality issues with my work. It’s even gotten to the point where she’s giving the impression that she is assuming that I’m not doing my job, period. (Eg- I’ll say that I can take on a side project b/c I’m ahead of schedule on main project, then she’ll reply, ‘Well you know, you can’t just sit and do nothing if you finish early.” …..? )

    I think part of it might be that she’s not supervising my biggest project, so she doesn’t really know what I do day-to-day, but other than volunteering to update her weekly/monthly (or heck, daily), I don’t know how to impart that information. (She has a ton of stuff she’s doing on her own, so I don’t know that adding another thing for her to read would be welcome anyway.) We rarely have one-on-one’s- if I didn’t initiate meetings to ask her about work stuff, the only time we’d speak is my annual performance review.

    Does anyone have a non-accusatory script that I can use to figure out what on earth is going on?

    1. Rae*

      What is her work style? Do you see her interact with her manager and how does that usually play out? Is your workspace near hers? How much can you observe of what she thinks “work” looks like?

      I am introverted, quiet, and prefer to be left alone to do work for hours at a time. and when I was in a support position for a manager she accused me outright of not working, because she expected me to come hang out with her in her office like my other coworker, chat, shout back and forth between offices, and spend lots of times being very loudly “busy” like she was. She literally did not notice anything outside of her whirlwind of activity. To her, it didn’t seem like I was doing anything because I was quiet and kept to myself.

      Is there anything you can observe about your style that would give her the mistaken impression you’re not working? Like has she walked in on you on a personal phone call more than once? Has she caught you on ebay during a break? Or looked for you after you happened to step out to get the mail or run a work errand?

      If the frequent updates over email don’t work, would she prefer you to show up in person at her office for five minutes each day? What about texts or phone calls? Ideally, she would tell you how she wants you to keep her in the loop and work with you in a way that will help you be as productive as possible, but you might have to do that for her in this case.

    2. Thlayli*

      It sounds like maybe she thinks you are giving yourself too much time to do things. You’ve said you never miss a deadline so maybe she thinks your deadlines aren’t challenging enough and you’re building in more than enough time to do the work.

    3. Specialk9*

      I’m not sure you can win with someone who treats a competent worker who meets deadlines as a slacker. Sorry. The best solution for a crappy manager is a new manager.

  61. regular commenter - anon for this post*

    My company is “harmonizing” benefits and is changing the PTO structure. I expected to accrue 24 days of PTO in 2018 and now will only accrue 20. I’m quite displeased, and so are a lot of folks in the company. Not sure what their goal was, but the end result is going to be a lot of attrition.

    1. JN*

      I don’t blame you for being upset at loosing almost a week of vacation time that you’d been expecting to get. But at least the company is letting you all know in plenty of time (unless people have already booked travel arrangments in anticipation of that time 0ff–which really sucks even more if they did). I’m sure the company POV is that it wasn’t fair to the employees in some departments to be getting less PTO time than people in other departments (but then it would have been nice of them to bring everyone up to the same level rather than taking away from some people). I’m about to change jobs from a place that just did one pot PTO for vacation/sick to a new place that has the two types separate. I’m officially getting 4 more total days, but it won’t exactly feel like it since I don’t usually get sick and so probably won’t be utilizing the sick time the way I would vacation time.

    2. WellRed*

      Just when I think I’ve heard all the corporate double speak bs a new one comes along. “Harmonizing benefits.” Really?! Bet some bean counter is proud of themselves for finding a softer way to say we are cutting your benefits.

    3. Specialk9*

      Yeah, every time HR talks about how benefits are changing to be so much better for employees, it’s usually really much better for the company.

  62. A Person*

    It’s my job’s Halloween party tomorrow and sweet Cthulu I don’t wanna. (I work at a school, this is par for the course and paid where I am). I’m going to be game because I can’t not be but I’d so much rather determine if I really need to buy a new computer tomorrow and not wrangle kids in costumes.

    1. Emily S.*

      Would it help to tell yourself you can manage this, and it’s not going to last forever? And leave at the earliest moment you can.

      Also – maybe think of a fun reward for yourself for making it through, once it’s all over.

      1. A Person*

        I’m planning a nice dinner and TV when I’m done, it’s just that it’s such a microcosm of all the problems work has and I’m so tired because of work and work adjacent reasons that I just want to hide in my bed.

  63. De Minimis*

    I posted in the old thread, but I found out what’s going to happen to my job. I will be laid off the year after next, but the big issue is that my salary will be cut nearly in half this coming summer. So my goal is to find a new job by that time. My boss said he tried to advocate for me and I guess that was the compromise. We’re losing a lot of other staff over 2018, and the first layoffs will begin early next year. I live in a high cost of living area, and though I’m the second income in my household that is still too great a cut to bear. It is twice what I’d initially told my boss I could tolerate.

    Everyone was notified this week about their own personal situation. Due to my job, I was informed about all the changes throughout the organization. They eventually will go public with everything, at least as far as layoffs. I don’t know if they’ll tell people about salary reductions for those who remain.

    What really bothers me is that not everyone is having to undergo salary cuts, and what really rubs me the wrong way is that only a few of the upper level people are having salary cuts at all, while their direct reports are having their salaries cut almost in half or are being laid off altogether. I just think that everyone should have to make some kind of sacrifice. I know that some of the managers will have to take on the work of those who are leaving, but that goes for those of us who are having our salaries cut as well, so why should they get to continue at the same salary while the rest of us struggle?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What really bothers me is that not everyone is having to undergo salary cuts, and what really rubs me the wrong way is that only a few of the upper level people are having salary cuts at all, while their direct reports are having their salaries cut almost in half or are being laid off altogether.

      You’re right, that sucks. :-(

    2. CatCat*

      Ugh, this is awful. I don’t know how they can avoid telling people about the salary reductions. It will be a massive problem if people just unexpectedly get 50% of their pay on payday.

      I think they can expect a mass exodus before salary cuts kick in, which may be what they are hoping for. (Especially if this is somewhere where vacation time accrued has to be paid out… even if not, I think a lot of people will be “sick” if given short notice so they can at least get a couple days off at their pre-cut pay.)

      1. De Minimis*

        They’ve told each individual about his/her own salary reduction, but I don’t know if they’re going public about what other people are doing [especially upper level people.]

        My feeling is most people who are facing cuts like mine will probably try and leave before they take effect. My question is, right now when people are laid off, they get a month’s severance. If you have your salary cut and then are laid off [as I will be], will your severance be a month of the old salary or a month of the reduced salary?

        It’s demoralizing, even though I won’t be working the same amount of hours I’ll be taking home less money than I was before I went back to school to change careers. And I’m sure they’ll try to get me to work more…

        A bad situation all around. We’re a nonprofit and have been around for a few decades, but this is most likely the beginning of the end of us.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The reason is that they care more about making sure they retain the higher level people. Those jobs are harder to fill and the impact can be worse if they’re vacant/in transition. They’re willing to cut pay at lower levels because they know that if people leave over it, they can replace them with a similar skill level (or a good enough skill level) pretty easily.

      That sucks when you’re one of the lower level people, but it’s not necessarily an outrageous way to do it, from a purely practical standpoint.

    4. JN*

      That sucks. At a past job, we had a new director come in a few months after the old one left (the assistant ‘ran’ things during the gap). New director did a total financial audit and discovered a major financial crisis that none of us had known anything about. Total purchasing freeze implemented immediately. Board wanted new director to cut at least one part time position and one full time position (mine). But director didn’t want to start swinging the axe immediately (which I appreciated) and talked them into a ‘compromise’ of reducing the hours of most of the part timers a bit, and making my position halftime instead of full. Which of course meant I lost my healthcare benefits. Applied for unemployment to try and make up some of the shortfall but only ended up receiving it for a week or two before the director came through on the promise to give me back a few hours if possible—and those hours meant I was making just enough to no longer qualify for unemployment help. I was graduating around that time, so they’d known I was likely to start job hunting, but those cuts made it a “must job hunt” instead of “want to job hunt”.

      1. De Minimis*

        They’re really trying to be as kind as they can…they’re making sure everyone stays long enough to be at least partially vested in the retirement plan [we had some new hires earlier this year who are going to be here exactly a year]
        and setting the termination date to where they won’t get immediately dropped from health insurance.

        And of course the kindness of letting people know what’s going to happen months in advance instead of just doing the Stalinist “sudden disappearance” method of layoffs.

  64. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I have a good job that is completely underutilizing me. This is expected, I just have way more downtime than I’d like, and during that downtime, the wheels keep turning and my thinking gets very negative. Some days I barely leave my office and my “get-up-and-go” goes down the tubes. I’m working hard on identifying ways to get out of these ruts, and one thing I realized recently is that I’m missing the “acting” element of a job. This will sound weird, but bear with me– I was very successful at a long-term job I held in NYC at a huge, well-known company. I wasn’t a major executive, but I had a growing role and enjoyed going to work most days. I realize now that part of that joy involved getting up, getting dressed in my “she-works-in-the-big-city” costume, putting on makeup, taking the train, and seeing various people throughout my day. I had to put on my “work look” and my “work face”, and as a natural performer, this added an extra boost to my day. (For the record, I am kind of introverted, so it helped to put on a persona as I went about my day.) It wasn’t perfect, but there were a lot of factors in that environment that kept me going.

    Now I’m in a small, uber-casual office (I am wearing yoga pants and sneakers today because I have a bad knee injury; shorts and t-shirts are typical attire here) in the ‘burbs with a 20-minute car commute. I wear way less makeup than I used to, and I have a closet full of business casual work wear. The “glamour” is gone, and with it, so goes a lot of my motivation to be a self-starter, put myself “out there”, insist on more challenging work, etc. So in an effort to combat this, I ordered new makeup and I have vowed to start incorporating nicer clothes into my work wardrobe (today notwithstanding, please take pity on the injured!). Does this kind of thing happen to anyone else? Any tips?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I haven’t got any tips, but I can relate.

      I moved to a new job earlier this year and it’s a really nice functional work place but the pace is so slow I find myself not knowing what to do with myself most days the work load and the lead times are so much easier than at my last place. For some reason I find myself missing the buzz and stress (as well as the dysfunction! but that might be Stockholm syndrome) I got used to it to and it motivated me to jump on problems and turn work around quickly. Now I’m just felling really flat and meh about coming to work.

    2. Kate Lathrop*

      I know just what you mean about the ‘work look’ and persona! My office goes in cycles and right now I’m in the slow time. I’ve got stuff to do just not motivated. and it’s a smaller more laid back office. I find that leaving the house with makeup and a good lip look (I go for a nice red) and my ‘#bosswoman’ attitude goes a long way to keeping my attitude up. I’ve also put together a selection of 8-10 outfits (and took photographs) so for mornings when I can’t brain I can pull one of the outfits together and that helps my attitude.

      You said shorts and T shirts are usual attire for the office you’re in now; maybe go with a preppy feel with bermuda shorts, button down shirts (or a nice structured T shirt) and adorable flats or low heeled shoes? Then khakis or nice jeans for winter? Think of it as a wardrobe for your new work persona. I am picturing leopard print or embossed croc mules, flats or low chunky block heels. Then solid color bermuda shorts with a white or cream shirt or blouse. Mix it up with plaid shorts for Fridays and pull a color from the shorts for your shirt.

      I know for me when my outside reflects what I want my inside to be, I’m much more confident. I used that A LOT when job hunting. Good luck!

    3. Specialk9*

      Totally! I get what you mean, completely, including about being an introvert and putting on that confident persona and getting an emotional bounce from it.

      People at my ‘casual’ dresscode work can show up in jeans and lots do (though management doesn’t, except Fridays). I don’t wear jeans almost ever – I dress from the polished side of ‘business’ to quirky business casual (eg a nice knee length dress with a quirky print). I am going for a look that says I’m a manager, with a bit of flair.

      I know I can’t work from home because I get too sad about not having fashion opportunities, and not seeing people. I love to dress up for work! (Though the occasional sweat pant at home day is delightful too.)

  65. Princess Carolyn*

    I work part-time for a company I love, doing work that’s in my field. My supervisors have said good things about my performance. I’ve applied for a few full-time gigs with this company, but haven’t been as successful as I hoped. Can someone help me figure out what’s up here?

    Job 1: In the same division I’m currently working for, doing something I’m qualified to do, but there are likely plenty of applicants with my skills or better. No interview. Weirdly, this position is still listed on the careers page months later, which is unusual for this company. I have access to the intranet so I know that nobody has been hired in this role.

    Job 2: In a different division than the one I’m currently working for, doing basically exactly what I do now for the other division. No interview. Kinda miffed, but I’m not crazy about this particular division anyway. I don’t think they’ve filled this position yet either, but it’s no longer listed.

    Job 3: A stretch job in a different division doing something higher-level than what I do for them now. Got a phone interview! It went well but they decided not to move forward with me because they wanted someone with more management experience, which doesn’t surprise me at all given how senior the position is. The person I interviewed with said they’d recommend my name to the person in charge of hiring similar positions in my current division — which is the same person who would be hiring for Job 1, where I never heard back.

    So I emailed the hiring manager in my division to ask if they were still hiring for that position and ask if I could access some of the internal best practice guides for that type of work so I could learn more. It’s been a week or two with no answer. This person has been in Slack and is definitely around, but it’s not clear if they’re ignoring my email or forgot about it or just haven’t gotten to it yet. (In general, people here are quite responsive, so it’s odd to go weeks without an answer.)

    Should I take a hint and give up on trying to work here full-time? I’m worried that I’m embarrassing myself and looking clueless.

    1. JN*

      I think Alison would probably say to accept silence as a “no” and move on to other options. Could be that you might get a pleasant surprise in hearing back on Job 1, but just as likely/more likely not. Since you’re looking to move up within the same company, I wonder if your current supervisors have to/get to weigh in on you being considered for other positions. You say you’ve gotten good feedback on your performance in your current role–is it possible that your supervisor doesn’t want to lose you to another department and is passively or overtly letting it be known to others that you aren’t to be poached?

    2. Specialk9*

      The most likely thing is that the silence means they are actively turning you down. But, I mean, what do you have to lose from politely asking various managers with whom you work, directly and indirectly, for feedback? Something like:

      “I would like your advice on specific skills I can work on, to help me advance at this company, or more broadly in this field. I really enjoy this job and company, and have gotten good feedback, but am struggling in my search to get a full-time position. I’m wondering if there is something specific that I can improve – either building specific skills or fixing a problem in my work or communication style. I recognize that the latter can be awkward to say directly to someone’s face, so please believe me that it would be a great kindness if you know of something, because if I know I can work on it. I promise not to argue or be defensive, I will just listen and then repeat back what I heard to make sure I understood correctly what you said.”

      And then, importantly, do exactly that. Listen with a serene face and thankful attitude, and repeat back their description with absolutely no commentary or shading from you. (So hard!) Then thank them for the help, and process the feelings and then thoughts elsewhere. Later check with people who know you well – is this something I do in other contexts? Research how to fix it, or come up with 3 concrete strategies. (You can tell the manager your strategies verbally; I wouldn’t email it to them, as then it can look like PIP documentation.)

      And what about applying elsewhere? This isn’t the only company. Sometimes it just takes a ‘click’ with a manager to go from seen as a meh performer to a rockstar.

  66. Anonymous Educator*

    I’ve often heard (especially in light of the most recent news cycle) that if you’re being sexually harassed and report it to HR, HR will be on the side of the company and try to protect it from liability instead of protecting you as an employee.

    I get that. I get the incentives. The company comes first, not the employee.

    That said, why does “protecting the company” mean covering up harassment (and thus protecting the harasser) and putting the harassee on the outs (or even retaliating against the employee)? Wouldn’t limiting liability involve documenting the actions of the accused and then, if the accusations appear to have merit, firing the harasser in order to protect the company?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, that’s what I mean. Exactly! Of course, I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t think someone can rightfully sue a company just because she was sexually harassed at work if the company did something about the harassment as soon as they knew about it. I do, however, think there are good grounds for a lawsuit if the company repeatedly showed it turned a blind eye to harassment. Unfortunately, just because there are grounds for a suit doesn’t mean the suit always ends well for the plaintiff (see Ellen Pao, Anita Hill, etc.)…

    3. Specialk9*

      I think you’re misinterpreting the idea of HR protecting the company. HR has heavy incentives to protect the company from lawsuit, so they will take sexual harassment accusations seriously. (Ideally – dysfunction and toxic messed up situations exist.) But HR is not there to protect *you* so people who expect HR to take care of them (ie most of us initially) are naive. HR is not a guidance counselor, teacher, therapist, mediator, or university RA – all of those are ‘caring for’ rules, but HR is more along the lines of legal compliance. I think that’s the point of those warnings about HR’s mindset.

      But absolutely, HR should care about sexual harassment – it can have huge financial, legal, and reputational impacts.

  67. Venus Supreme*

    What a WEEK. My manager and my big boss had to have a sit-down meeting with me because of something I said last week prior. Last week, outside of office hours my manager was trying to install a filing cabinet in my cubicle and it didn’t fit. She left it wedged under the desk and didn’t put back anything she moved and left my rug bunched up in a corner. I felt like this was really disrespectful, especially when I asked her what happened to my cubicle she replied with, “Oh, I got distracted. It’s a low priority.” When I saw her again I said, “Y’know, this really upset me. This is my personal space and I would have appreciated a text or something so I know what I’m walking into.” And she exploded. She said, “Are you kidding me right now? Seriously? Don’t you even know what else is going on?” And I said, “No, I don’t. Can we talk about this?” She said no, and she stormed off.

    So this meeting, with our big boss happened a week later after this incident. They wanted to know what this comment meant, and I referenced previous confrontations I had with my manager: There are three associates (including me) working under her and she is very obviously closer with the two than she is with me. She told me she sees my one associate as her “second daughter” and “like her assistant.” I brought this up again that this is problematic because important, work-related information comes out during her casual, personal conversations and it doesn’t trickle down to me. I keep asking for weekly meetings and it’s not consistent.

    Know what they blamed these miscommunications on? My headphones. They said I’m not connecting with my coworkers because of my headphones. They said it’s a “two-way street” to connect, and I need to make myself available to… what, eavesdrop?

    My work requires a lot of concentration, and the company moved from having offices with locking doors to open-concept cubicles. I can hear everything. I ostensibly need these headphones to do my job. Whenever someone needs my attention I promptly remove them. I also wear the big, over-the-head headphones so people easily know when I have them on. I also have misophonia, so it’s either I work with my headphones on or I spiral into a panic attack because the person in the cubicle next to me is scraping his aluminum foil on the desk and the girl on the other side of me is singing to herself. I explained this all, and they said I then need to find another way to “connect” with everyone. What bugs me, though, is that I don’t care about being best friends with these people. What my issue is, is that I’m not getting important information conveyed to me and it’s affecting my work and how others are perceving how well I do my job.

    My manager also had a mental list of everything I’ve done wrong in the past 6 weeks, and this meeting was the first time I heard about all of this. Despite me being thrown off-guard with this confrontation, I had enough wits about me to ask her why she didn’t tell me as soon as I made these perceived errors. She said it’s because she needed time to “cool down” and collect her thoughts. I told her the errors went on as long as they did because she didn’t tell me as soon as they happened, and I can’t correct myself on things I don’t know are wrong. BTW, I’m sure the only reason the big boss was there because my manager doesn’t have a spine. Board members call her the “hand-wringer.” My manager also suggested I should be staying late to work and coming in on weekends to finish work… but there is no issue about me working to finish tasks on time. I feel like the culture here thinks time spent = quality of work. I don’t even know what I would do for work on a Saturday… clean my cubicle?

    Some days my higher-ups make me think I’m overreacting, and other days I feel like they’re backwards.

    I’m in my 20s. No kids. I’ve been here for a year and a half. I’m ready to move out-of-state and work for more reasonable people. I like the work I’m doing, it’s just these people. Thoughts?

    1. Cheese Sticks and Pretzels*

      It is obviously not a good fit for you and if it were me, I would be looking to work elsewhere.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        I’m definitely looking elsewhere. I’m trying to make the time between now and my next job as painless as possible :-\

      1. Venus Supreme*

        It’s very… incesctuous here. Lots of one-night-stands between co-workers, a couple kids as a result of that, and those kids have their own cubicles as both parents work here and this is cheaper than daycare. I’m not super down with blurring your private matters with your business matters, and I’m not super down with kids fighting and breaking the company’s things, and of course I didn’t realize this when I interviewed. I’m trying to figure out how I can get a good sense of the culture fit in future interviews.

        1. Rookie Manager*

          Wow! I’ve nothing to offer but wow! Kids having their own cubicle would be weird enough without it being because of all the company one night stands.

    3. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

      Yes, get out. Just reading this made my skin crawl. You deserve an environment where you are respected!

      Good luck.

    4. Specialk9*

      You need to leave. This is a terrible manager who stores up grievances to ambush you in front of grandboss rather than to tell you for continual improvement, refuses to meet with you regularly, blows up emotionally at you after using very dismissive and belittling language to you, needles you (yes it’s on purpose) about how much she likes your co-workers and dislikes you, and complains about appearance of work over completing work. I’m guessing you have gotten accustomed to the pot heating up around you, and are checking in to check that the water is actually hot. Yep, hot water / toxic manager. You have to get out. She’ll find ways to destroy your professional reputation and get you fired anyway. Transfer internally if you can. Get another job elsewhere.

  68. Emi.*

    I got stuck on the holiday party planning committee. We’re supposed to meet for an hour every week until mid-December. Please someone kill me.

    2. Emily S.*

      Even if you’re in a huge company, this sounds like planning overkill.

      Sorry! But hey, at least there is an end date. Just think, two months from now (given the party will be in mid-Dec.?) it will be over and done. Meanwhile, maybe suggest an ugly sweater competition. You know, for laughs. ;)

  69. Language Student*

    My class assistant won’t listen to my instractions. Help?

    Basically, there’s a new volunteer tutor who sits in on my class and does one-on-one work with one of my students. He occasionally helps out with explanations in class, which is fine as long as it’s relevant, but he tends to go off topic. When that happens, I cut in and say “we’ll learn more about that later in the year, so don’t worry too much now” to get us back on topic and I continue teaching. Problem is, when he does the one-on-one sessions, he asks me for approval of the content and then focuses on the content I’ve asked him not to focus too much on, because we haven’t covered it yet. I’m not sure how to talk to him about it, but it’s a problem since the student misses half the normal class time and doesn’t get the chance to catch up/work on his weaknesses. What should I do? I want to talk to the tutor about this, but what should I say?

    1. fposte*

      Sounds like Volunteer Tutor has a focus problem. How are you finding out what he’s focused on in the tutoring–is there a report? What about setting out more specifics about time on the priority areas–“Spelling and grammar–at least 30 min.; sentence construction–at least 30 min.” and ask him to report how long was actually spent as well as whether the topics got addressed?

      1. Language Student*

        Typically, he’ll casually tell me what he focused on after class has finished – we’re pretty informal and low key, so setting times is tricky – but I could definitely be more specific about priority areas. So far I’ve mostly been saying “we’re not actually set to cover that for a couple of months – could you focus on y instead?” and it might sound more like a suggestion than a direction. Thanks!

    2. FormerOP*

      If you are in second language education, have you heard of Tea with BVP? Google it, it won’t help you with your specific problem BUT I personally found my students are so much happier (and can communicate more) after I started using comprehensible input over legacy methods. I know this is not an answer to your question, but I do believe that it is a good resource. Feel free to roll your eyes and ignore my evangelizing.

      1. Language Student*

        I haven’t heard of it, but that looks really useful! I’m a volunteer and don’t have much training or education in ESOL, so I’m always looking for new methods and resources. Thank you!

  70. LO*

    After what felt like an eternity of losing patience at slow interviewing processes, candidate ghosting by managers, and WAY too many resume re-writes…I got a new job. :-)

    The interviews for where I’m going were the best I’ve ever performed at. It is the first time in my life where I felt like interviewing was an actual conversations and assessments of my skills and attitude (and vice versa to the employer) instead of some kind of weird performance where I was never actually myself and too afraid to ask tough questions.

    Alison, thank you so much for this site and your interview guides. I read them religiously (even memorized certain parts!) and your advice helped me realize interviewing is a two way street and not where the candidate has no say THANK YOU!

  71. Former lurker*

    My company has a policy whereby staff aren’t allowed to give references for past or current employees; all reference requests have to go to HR who send out a generic template response giving very little detail (basically job title, length of service, attendance…)
    I’ve been here for over 10 years in a few positions, and now job-hunting externally for the first time since then. I got too comfortable, and now I’m feeling out of my depth in the job market, and overthinking everything. Mainly, though, I don’t know what to do about references when I eventually get asked – I can only give my current employer, then anything else work-related would be around 11 years old, with people I’ve lost touch with. How do I approach this?!

    1. EmilyAnn*

      Do you work regularly with people outside the company? Vendors, clients, anything like that? Are you in any professional associations?

      1. Former lurker*

        I’m ashamed to say I haven’t put the effort into networking with professional contacts over the years as I should have done, so I only know people to say hi to at events and share small talk with. In terms of clients, that’s a possibility – is that something people do? I’ve never thought about that before…. hmmmmmmm…. thanks, I’ll have a think on this!

    2. CatCat*

      Has anyone left the company that can serve as a reference? Any sense of whether this policy is actually enforced/followed?

    3. A.N.O.N.*

      This is a fairly common HR policy. They idea behind it is that HR doesn’t want managers either giving a negative reference about an employee and be potentially sued by the employee for slander or giving a great recommendation for a not-so-great employee and being sued by the employee’s new company for false information.

      That said, it’s a policy that is very, very commonly broken. Managers know that employees need references from them. If you’re comfortable approaching your manager for a reference, I wouldn’t let this get in the way. Often job offers are made contingent on references, so that would be the point where you could approach your current manager. If you really don’t feel comfortable approaching your manager, you could also ask a trusted coworker with whom you work closely and who could vouch for your work.

    4. Sam Foster*

      First, be open and honest with prospective employers that many of your references will have to follow internal HR policy. Second, like others have said: Do you have contacts that no longer work there that you could trust? Volunteer groups? Industry trade associations?

  72. EmilyAnn*

    I work for the government and had reached out to a couple of people to let them know I was looking for a new job. One responded quickly and basically offered me a job in a week. Unlike most government jobs the hiring is going to be quick. It was interesting work so I accepted and should be starting next month. Another called after I accepted and told me he was basically going to do everything in his power to get an open position in his organization for me. It’s in a dream location and the work sounds wonderful. Hiring is going to take forever. I anticipate months, even if I’m selected. So I’m pulling my freebie in this situation and I’m going to take the new job and start in good faith, while working on the other process and hoping I get hired. I could spend as little as 90-120 days in the new job. I think if it all works out and I have to explain myself, the new job will be upset, but they will completely understand why I would take the other one. If dream location doesn’t work out, I’m excited about the possibilities of the first job and will leave it to “whatever will be will be”. Such a great “problem” to have!

  73. Jenn*

    Anyone have great tips for scheduling entry-level staff?

    I’ve taken on a radically new role in a new organization and I’m struggling a bit with how best to communicate with staff around scheduling.

    We use Schedule Base and until now it was done on a very ad hoc basis, sometimes a night or two before the shifts themselves. I’m looking for what’s helped you get your scheduling super under control with clear lines of communication, ways to make it better for staff and management, and ways you’ve kept people engaged. I’ve now gotten three weeks ahead, but we do have a lot of moving targets if people get sick.

    Right now we have people who tend to show up without having checked the schedule; a lot of our staff are fairly young adults and don’t seem to check email or text. People’s hours are not all that regular as our staffing needs fluctuate. The good news is that they are generally showing up for more hours than they are scheduled for; the bad news is they’re wasting their own time.

    1. LCL*

      Start with some concrete deadlines that you will follow and expect them to follow. Specifically, how many days is each schedule for-week, two week, month? If you are not doing it by pay period, start. We post ours for two full pay periods, and it is always ready on the third Thursday on the schedule. Hopefully your pay periods are the same length each time, so all of your deadlines will repeat on the same weekday/point in the schedule. This makes the calendar more or less irrelevant, it is your job to reconcile the schedule vs the calendar by date. If your pay periods are always a specific date, like 1st and 15th of the month, your job is much harder but still doable.

      Next, decide what your preferred method of notifying people is, and stick to it. If you are the scheduler you have the power to decide this. Talk it over with the employees first, to figure out what will work best, but the ultimate decision is up to you. We produce a written schedule and give everyone a copy. If they have questions they call me. It sound like your business requires short notice of shifts-talk to the group and standardize your callout procedures. Part of standardization is keeping a record of your callouts, otherwise at minimum you will be accused of unfair treatment, at worst setting the grounds for a discrimination lawsuit.

      You can’t do much about the sick calls except standardize your procedure so it is very clear what the employees are supposed to do. Our unit policy is that the person (or spouse or family member, whatever) has to call in to someone in management BY PHONE. We won’t accept texts or emails for sick leave calls.

  74. Chewy Mints*

    I interviewed at an organization yesterday and I am uncertain on how to interpret some of the things I noticed during the interview, and would appreciate an outside perspective. The company called me today to invite me over again as they want to extend me a job offer and want to discuss the details in person, so no written offer.

    Here are a few examples of my observations during the interview:
    – the CEO mentioned that the position has been hard to fill as some people don’t do well in the high-stress type of environment (its a financial company),and he believes its a generational thing because people my age (millennials) are more sensitive and don’t do well under pressure.
    – all the executive and management positions are occupied by men, and all associate positions are women. The room is divided in two, so the ladies (as they refer to the staff) are in on side, and the men on the other.
    – one of the executives is the CEO’s son, and he refers to him as “Dad”
    – there are no employee handbooks, guides, or manuals of any sort to guide onboarding staff. They mentioned they are too busy and have not been able to prepare those things, though the company has been on the market for over 30 years.
    – they expect someone to be hands-on and own the work with an entrepreneurial spirit, but they could not explain how training would be provided. On of the executives mentioned that his hands are too full and he can’t be holding anybody else’s hand. But if they don’t have their processes documented, how is one supposed to learn?
    – it seems like this company is making a lot of money, but the office is sort of run down. It gave me the feeling that everybody there works to bring the big bucks in, but the minimum is put into place to create a nice and welcoming environment.
    – the hiring manager (who is a new hire) was very quite; the CEO and his son took over the interview for most part
    – there is no HR
    – the interview was so intense and high pressure that I forgot to ask about salary range. I stayed there for 40 minutes and felt drained afterwards.

    If you can give me some perspective and feedback on how I can approach this offer, please chime in and leave a comment!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Personally, I’d be approaching the offer by running the other way. This office sounds sexist, ageist, high-stress, disorganized, and dysfunctional.

    3. TCO*

      I agree with the others–the only “approach” is to stay far away unless you’re currently unemployed and desperate. They are doing you the favor of openly advertising how dysfunctional they are.

    5. Just Tea For Me, Thanks*

      It comes across as red flags to me. If you can, keep looking for another position! Best of luck to you!

    7. miyeritari*

      Do not join this company unless:

      – You have a serious, ongoing medical issue you need insurance for, that will not be made worse by a high-stress, toxic enviroment
      – It’s this or you will starve
      – It’s this or you will become homeless

    8. Chewy Mints*

      Thank you all for the feedback. I am currently employed, in a job that is not in my field. I have a horrendous commute, plus some other annoyances. This new offer is much closer to home and offer a more flexible schedule, but given my initial impressions and the feedback you gave me, I think is best to hang in there and keep looking. Also, I forgot to mention that the CEO’s son was the one who called me to offer the job, not the hiring manager.

    9. Mephyle*

      Better an employer that has no idea how dysfunctional they are, so they are completely open about it, than an employer who hides their dysfunction to get you in there under false pretenses.
      You’ve been handed the gift of seeing who they are, and a pretty good idea of what it would be like to work for them: take it and run away, far and fast.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      RUN RUN RUN LIKE THE WIND

      Seriously, I got to the third thing and was saying OUT LOUD, “No no no no no no noooooooooooooo.” If you think the interview drained you, imagine spending 40-50 hours a week there. Don’t do it!

    11. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

      I’d beat my 5K personal best running time getting away from that place.

    12. Sam Foster*

      Echoing the run don’t walk sentiment. Unless you are on the verge of destitution this sounds horrible and soul killing.

    15. Cobol*

      Going to give a contrarian answer. I would run, and see you are too, which is good since just the interview drained you. But……

      This could be a good job for somebody else. It’s a small family run business. Some people love not having process and being able to just do what they think of as right.
      The flags.
      1) sexism. Ugh.
      2) The office furniture. How bad is it? Do they make money, or do they just say they make money? I’ve noticed even small gumption companies still patsy least competitively. Small companies that are barely hanging on don’t.

      One thing, and I’m thinking you are a few years out of school, I’ve worked with and for fortune 500 companies where you are expected to figure it out on your own with no meaningful training. You may not be ready for that, or you may not be capable of that. I’d try to figure that out in the next 2-3 years. If the later either stay put at one company, or look to a more recommended industry lime big finance (corporate not sales), healthcare, some nonprofit, or government.

      1. Chewy Mints*

        Thanks, I really appreciate the different point of view. The office looks like it’s from the 70’s. That’s not the problem, but there are visible damages on the ceilings and walls. No decor, just plain beige walls and cubicles where the ladies work.
        In my current job, I’m in a type of contract that after 4 years of employment I will get kicked-out, regardless of performance or if the project is still going on. I have one year left on my contract, and cannot stay even if another department wants to hire me. So I have one year to find a new job.
        I like your point about the work style. I am very curious and try to do things myself, but I like to have a point of reference and some basic understanding of the office, clients, projects. That’s what they couldn’t explain to me. So I think I’m getting uncomfortable with the sense of being thrown to the wolves and not have support from the team. That, and the fact that the CEO and his son seems to go over the hiring manager a lot. It’s a family business, so this might indeed be the nature of the beast.
        They wanted to discuss the details of the offer in person, but I asked for something in writing first. Should be getting it tomorrow; let’s see.

        1. Mephyle*

          We’ll be watching this space: please update, especially if there are some ‘interesting’ developments.

    16. Chewy Mints*

      A quick update. They sent me a standard employment contract, not an offer. They are offering what I bring home now after taxes, but no insurance. And half of pto. So that would be a major cut. It’s been a thought week at work and I’m so tempted to just leave, but I know I would be shooting myself in the foot to be impulsive about this. I’m not happy or excited about my current situation or this offer, so back to the drawing board. Thank you all!

  75. Integrity Snob*

    Ex-coworker finally let go (laid off for cost apparently) after we had an EEOC case where the primary complaint was racism, and the coworker admitted to it (and was still kept on staff for an addition year) AND worked in an area of HR.

    We will call her Grace… she applied with one resume, and when looking for a job while employed a few years ago updated her LinkedIn and resume (which she asked me to take a look at) with fabricated titles. For example, Grace had her own business with her partner for several years which overlapped a lot of employment because it was something small similar to running an Etsy shop for soap. She changed her title from Owner to Director of Teapot Engagement and used it to cover an employment gap (maternity). Grace also changed her title from what she was, Senior Teapot Engagement Coordinator to Director of Teapot Co. Human Resources.

    I only know this because Grace passed along a resume to a coworker I am friends with and she was asking for advice on how to respond. I feel obligated to let any company that may hire her know about her past, but I was only a junior employee to her. It’s also none of my business. People like this get their due, right? I don’t know why I’m so angry about this but I think it is unfair in an area of expertise that that takes a while to cultivate that people “cut to the front of the line”.

    1. nacho*

      I’d love to tell you that this will all be found out and she’l never be hired by anyone and spend the rest of her life asking people if they want fries with that, but there’s a decent chance that she won’t, or at the very least that a couple of the companies she applies for won’t find out about it.

      Yeah, it’s unfair, but so are a lot of things, and if you got angry about all of them then you’d never be happy. Just give it up and remember that it doesn’t affect you.

    2. Specialk9*

      The racism thing is a serious problem, but tweaking titles (since those to me sound like they’re in the same vein, and often internal titles don’t match external conventions) and using a side gig to smooth over a gap in employment, don’t seem to rise to the level of ‘anger’ and praying for the universe to punish her. It sounds like you’re legitimately mad about the racism, but the others sound like b eating crackers. I’d let it go mentally.

  76. The OG Anonsie*

    So let’s confess: what things do you do that make you the terrible or annoying coworker? Do you file your nails at your desk or mouth breathe or forget to reply to emails until people ask you many times or what?

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Same! (I also very occasionally steal people’s cream for my coffee, but only when I’m desperate)

    3. Allison*

      Sometimes I forget to hit “reply all.” My boss sends me emails and loops in another manager in the department so he’s informed of what’s going on with the project, but sometimes I only reply to her and he comes by my desk with a face full of panic going “did you get Jane’s email???” “yeah, sorry, forgot to include you in the reply.” “Can you forward me what you sent her?” (I only said “okay” or “yeah, I’ll get right on that” but whatever), “sure.” Then he stays in my cube, hovering behind me while I forward him the email, then goes “great, thanks” and leaves.

      And I sneeze loudly. Most days I don’t sneeze that much, as long as I’m good about taking my Claritin every day, but when I do sneeze it’s a powerful force and people say “bless you” in a super annoyed, “I’m just saying this because I have to but you’re pissing me off” tone.

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        My dad absolutely screams when he sneezes, and I guess it’s just what happens and he can’t help it but it does immediately annoy the crap out of me in a way that knowing it’s involuntary cannot remedy. But because he’s my dad and I’m not at work, instead of “bless you” I usually say “STOP YELLING”

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Oh man I had a scream-sneezer coworker for awhile. I know she wasn’t CONSCIOUSLY trying to scream but it is possible to stop doing that

        2. Allison*

          Oh man, I hate the scream-sneezes.

          When I talk about the loud sneezes, people always mention that some people add vocals to their sneezes and that’s what’s making them loud. I swear I’m not yelling or screaming or saying “aaah-choo” when I sneeze, it’s just a loud of air coming out at once.

      2. Emily S.*

        Related to loud sneezing, a colleague with a nearby office has a frequent and very loud COUGH. This is a deep, serious cough – and it continues throughout the day. The noise echoes through our whole front office.

        Luckily, it’s mostly seasonal, so it doesn’t happen all year, but geez.

      3. Chaordic One*

        OTOH, when I was in school we had an annoying teacher who was terminally lady-like. She had the most bizarrely delicate sneezes that I find it hard to believe that they were even real. It was like she was pretending to sneeze in an exaggerated lady-like southern belle style.

        1. Windchime*

          I used to work with someone who would painfully stifle her sneezes so that they barely happened at all. It literally sounded like she was trying to force the entire sneeze through her nose.

    4. Midwest Red Sox Fan*

      I’m a cube talker. To myself. Especially when I’m trying to figure out a particularly sticky problem.

    5. paul*

      I talk to myself and tend to jump if startled while I’m engrossed in something (I’ve actually bruised my shins this way).

      I also sneeze a lot. I take meds for allergies but they just ameliorate it, they don’t eliminate it. That’s the one that makes me feel the worst because I know it’s damn annoying but I also really can’t help it…and it isn’t like I can call in for hayfever all summer long. It can also make it hard to know if it’s just allergies or if I’m actually sick.

      2. Allison*

        I was sneezing yesterday and a coworker said “everyone’s sick this week . . .” I wasn’t sick! If I’d been sick I would have been out, that’s why we have sick days!

        1. paul*

          question: how can you always *tell*? I’ve had what I thought was allergies turn out to be an actual infection…seems like at least once a year. It always makes me mad.

          1. Emily S.*

            I had that happen last year, in spring. First I had hay fever for more than a month (runny nose, sneeze, cough etc.). Then, it turned into a bad sinus infection – and I realized I was sick when I noticed that I felt weak, and my symptoms had changed/worsened. When I went to a clinic, they said that sometimes, you can be more susceptible to infection if you’re already having issues, like from allergies. Luckily, with the sinus infection, antibiotics worked great – and I went back to just dealing with allergies.

          2. Allison*

            They say mucus is an indicator. Clear is fine, but green could signal an issue. I’ve been ignoring my green boogers though because I don’t seem to have other symptoms. If you have a fever or bad sinus pressure, then you should definitely see a doctor.

      3. Specialk9*

        Have you ever seen the 2nd episode of 3rd Rock from the Sun? They’re aliens in human form, and all of them get sick for the first time. They sneeze, and are startled and then do this hysterical kind of reaction. https://youtu.be/xfmBtLV1QHw

    7. KatieKate*

      I’m a ranter. I”m getting better at noticing it and cutting myself off, but I can go on and on about traffic, weather, etc.

    8. Amber Rose*

      I talk to myself when I’m stressed. I also, in recent months, have caught myself just generally making noises. Like loud sighs when I sit down, or “wahhh” when I’m busy and rushing around. And tapping my nails/fingers on the desk.

      I don’t feel overmuch guilt though because my neighbor on my right is at least 1000 times more annoying, and the lunchroom with the foozball table is to my left. :|

    9. SQL Coder Cat*

      When I’m really into my work, I sing along with the music in my headphones. We are in a semi-open office plan and my co-workers tease me about it quite a bit- but they also ask me for artists/song titles, so it must not be too bad I hope?

    10. Margali*

      I send emails, but if I run into the person 10 minutes later in the break room, sometimes I’ll try to get an in-person answer.

    11. Tris Prior*

      I have allergies and at this time of year, even with meds, I am going to be blowing my nose, sneezing, and coughing sometimes. I hate being That Person and I try to do all the above as quietly as possible but I’m sure I’m annoying people. Haven’t yet found a med that completely gets rid of all symptoms.

    12. Princess Carolyn*

      Definitely guilty of coming over to ask for one thing and wasting 15 minutes chatting. Also prone to negativity if I’m not careful.

    13. Natalie*

      I listen to podcasts or music roughly 100% of the time, so I’m sure I make random noises that I’m unaware of. I’ve definitely had to turn a podcast off because I was laughing too much and I was sure it would be annoying if anyone overheard me.

      I also type super loud.

    14. Can't Sit Still*

      I fidget with my footrest when I’m stressed. Thump! Thump! Thump! I try to push it out of the way so I won’t be tempted, but I usually don’t notice until I’ve done it a couple of times.

    15. Elizabeth H.*

      I used to walk around my office barefoot a lot. I don’t here bc it’s more . . . open to the building? I don’t know but I would like to. I also get up and down a lot. I sit with my side/back to a service window (someone else, who staffs the window, sits in front of it, it’s not me staffing it. Our office is an open-feel rectangular space and my desk is in the upper right corner facing the wall, and the service window is on the lower left corner, on the other end of the wall my back is toward) and I jump startle a lot when someone comes to address me which I think is probably annoying to them. I can’t help it! Last time one of my coworkers suggested that I turn my desk around so that I wouldn’t be sitting with my back to the door, but I prefer it this way so much more because whoever comes to the services window is out of my line of sight and I can ignore it.

    17. DDJ*

      I’m a whistler. I’ll find myself do it when I’m walking down the hallway or in the stairwells. I don’t whistle while I’m sitting at my desk, it’s just a walking thing. I do it when I walk down the street, too. When I notice I’m doing it I’ll cut it out, but a lot of the time I don’t realize it’s happening.

      My inlaws poke a bit of fun at me for it. No one at work has ever said anything.

      I also type really loudly. I’m a fast typer, but I learned to type mostly on an older typewriter and I also play the piano, so my fingers don’t hit the keys delicately. I realize that if I’m drafting a really long email, it’s probably really obnoxious to anyone who can hear me (thankfully I’m in an office now so I’m hoping it’s not so hard on my coworkers!).

    18. Elizabeth West*

      –I talk to myself sometimes–it’s a habit from talking through dialogue, so I tend to talk through tasks. I try not to.

      –I chat. Too much. Also trying to mitigate this.

      –I complain. Ditto.

      –If there’s a pen around, I will click it.

    19. De Minimis*

      I probably loiter around other people’s desks too much. I try to not to socialize more than once or so per day and worry that I bother people but they are too polite to tell me.
      I like visiting with my coworkers on the other floor but worry that I’m the person that they want to avoid. I am pretty isolated in my department [people rarely talk, and I have in common with the people on the other floor.]

    20. Canadian Natasha*

      Oh I know this one bugs people:
      I leave my bowl used for oatmeal in the break room sink to soak for part or most of the day. (Break is not long enough to eat and clean so I wait to wash it til the next break I’m in that room)

    21. Thlayli*

      What’s wrong with filing your nails at your desk? I do that. My coworker is always borrowing my nail file.

  77. anon1*

    Reported a sexual predator in my office to a senior official that I trust. Feeling nervous but know that it was the right thing to do. Thank you to everyone from Wednesday’s security guard post for giving me the courage to do it.

    5. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

      Keep breathing through the nervousness! So glad you went for it.

    8. This Daydreamer*

      Fantastic! Just think about how many women in your workplace you have saved from being harassed or worse.

  78. ThatLibraryChick*

    Slightly weird work related question but for those of you who take walks during your lunch break, how do you not sweat? I would love to take walks during my breaks, but I’m deathly afraid of coming back sweaty/smelly and we don’t have access to do a quick shower. Changing clothes would also take too much time/hassle. Short of spraying on perfume/body spray (which wouldn’t fly in a lot of offices), how do you folks do it?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Hmm. I do sweat, just not that much, I guess. I’ve never noticed any of our walkers coming back smelly. If you wear a cardigan during the day, definitely leave that when you go for your walk. If you have long hair, pull it back for your walk so it doesn’t get caught up in neck sweat. But really, unless you’re power walking, I do think you’ll be ok.

    4. Marillenbaum*

      Body wipes! In case you get mad sweaty, then you can discreetly clean up in the bathroom. Add in a small stick of travel deodorant in your desk, and it’s good to go!

    5. Lunchwalker*

      Google “Action wipes”. I can change and shower but I don’t usually if I am just walking. I go into a stall & use the action wipes. The smell is not strong & disipatws quickly. Also maybe get some dress gaurds if you wear nice tops.

    6. The OG Anonsie*

      Based on the other responses I now feel like the odd one out, but honestly I just don’t worry about it. I know I’m not sweating enough to come back and be smellable, unless maybe someone were to press their nose directly into my bare armpits. And I’m a pretty sweaty person.

    7. Kathenus*

      I like to walk at lunch and at times of the year it’s really hot. A few things that work for me – keep antiperspirant at work and refresh it after the walk, change into shorts on very hot days so I’m more comfortable and don’t sweat as much, put my hair up to keep it off my neck, and wash my face, neck and arms once I get back to work.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I didn’t walk at Exjob; I did stair climbs. I didn’t sweat that much because I was indoors. I kept a t-shirt in my cube and changed into and out of that. Also, I used baby wipes for a quick freshen-up and had a fan under my desk I used to cool off.

    9. De Minimis*

      I try to walk only to the point where I’m starting to sweat, but not too much. I’m a guy so I think as long as I have an undershirt that helps things, but of course that solution isn’t going to work for many.

    10. Chaordic One*

      For some reason I find that when I first walk in the office at the beginning of the day or from lunch, that I perspire a lot when I sit at my desk. I ended up buying a small electric fan and have it sit on my desk next to my computer monitor. I turn it on anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes after I come in and sit down.

      I have a friend who has similar problems and she wears a lot of makeup and always ends up with raccoon eyes and has to get up and go to the rest room to redo it after about 15 minutes at her desk. I don’t wear that much makeup, myself and since I wear glasses I kind of feel like I don’t need much around my eyes.

  79. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    Participated in a webinar regarding new laws taking effect Jan 1 in California. This includes a law that will make it illegal for employers to ask for salary history. If a candidate mentions it on their own, that can be factored in, but companies cannot make even the barest reference to pay history or try to find out what it is. I’m quite happy about this as my salary history nearly cost me a new position some years ago when HR didn’t want me to have the salary in-range for new job because it was so much higher than old job.

    However, the attorneys on the webinar also brought up an interesting point – employers should NOT be asking for an applicant’s salary requirements because that can be a back foot way of getting salary history information. If an applicant says they are looking for $50k a year, the employer can easily and rather accurately assume the applicant was making less than that. It could also lead to an applicant feeling they must justify their salary expectation. So the attorneys have stated that any discussion of salary should be offered by the applicant.

    While I understand what the attorneys are protecting against, that’s going to be difficult for employers to determine if someone is in their price range unless employers include salary range in the job posting.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Manders*

      While I understand the attorneys’ caution, I think that’s a stretch. There are a lot of reasons why people might take the same salary they’re already making or even accept a decrease salary-wise, so someone’s salary requirements don’t necessarily reveal what they’re making.

      Of course, if everyone switched to including a salary range in the job posting and ended the whole salary bluffing game, that would be awesome. It’s just not what the new law’s actually trying to do.

    2. fposte*

      That I like their thought process and including salary range in the job posting is a pretty simple and reasonable thing to do.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Hell yeah. It makes it much easier for applicants–they can self-select out and not apply if the salary isn’t what they were expecting. That would save time for everyone.

    3. Alice*

      I don’t know if the attorneys who thought that salary requirement questions are going to be not allowed are correct (my instinct is that they are not, but who knows?). That said — I think you’ve got the solution already: employers should discuss the salary range in the job posting, or at the very least the phone screen.
      We sometimes hear people in the comments saying “but then people will be insulted if I don’t offer them the top of the range.” Well, in that case either A the employer is not communicating clearly about what the criteria are for different levels within the range, or B the employee is unrealistic about his or her skillset, and really the employer should have figured that out in the interview process.

      1. SusanIvanova*

        The law also says employers must provide a salary range when asked.

        I wouldn’t automatically assume someone was making less at their old job than they’re asking for now, unless they were looking for a different job than the last one, in which case old salary isn’t even relevant.

    4. The OG Anonsie*

      I have two thoughts. The first is that I would suspect the attorneys are over-extrapolating this, and IANAL but I somewhat doubt that asking for a desired salary will run afoul of the new law.

      The second is that employers posting their own available salary ranges is the way this should be done, so their advice should be followed anyway. There’s no reason to put the burden of this discussion on candidates.

    5. Sam Foster*

      Companies could just list the salary range. If they’re worried about people freaking out about not being offered the top of the range and they don’t have a good answer for the salary offered or the person continues to freak out after the good answer is given then it probably isn’t a good fit anyway.

    6. Thlayli*

      My thought is just include salary range in job posting. Frankly I detest it when employers don’t. How is an employee supposed to know a job is worth applying for if they don’t know the salary?

  80. JadedDisneyCharacter*

    Hi – this is a 1/2 and 1/2 rant and begging for some outsider insight

    I have just started a new role and am really struggling with such a negative atmosphere.
    Don’t get me wrong the company is great and the people are lovely – however the key departments I work with on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis are so resistant to change that suggestions as to how to move our teams forward and become proactive rather than reactive to processes are shutdown immediately.
    My coworker is leaving in two weeks time and is leaving under a bit of a cloud – she is a great person but as a colleague has mentally checked out of the business and is either unwilling or incapable of helping. I spend a lot of my time trying to advise her how to approach conflict and defuse tension between her and colleagues while coaching on how to develop in her role (she is very junior to me).

    I work in HR and my role is to primarily breathe new life into my department and help to improve our ‘PR’ and reputation within the business – but I am finding the constant pushback incredibly draining.
    The other part of my role is to streamline processes, cut the amount of time we are spending on projects to improve efficiency and use my observations from previous and current experience to contribute to our people strategy. It is a very exciting role and I am attempting to include fellow colleagues who will be using these processes day today however they have all worked within the company for some time and are reluctant to even review current practices but are very open about saying that they do not work.

    It is a very problem but no solution based approach here, whereas I am the opposite. I think they think I see the world through disney tinted glasses but the lack of enthuasiasm and no willingness to find solutions to problems is so draining. Please note, this is not from Senior Management who are receptive to my ideas.

    I am adapting my approach, including key colleagues in decisions and asking for feedback on ideas for solutions but am getting a continuous stream of negative comments about ‘what ifs’ that are completely unrelated to the projects at hand and suggestions I am making.

    I have spoken to others to see if my communication isn’t effective or am I not getting my point across and have been told that it makes sense, and they are good ideas that take colleagues and wider business in account and you can see instant wins.

    Has anybody else had this? And how did you deal with it?

    1. LCL*

      Senior management has to set the tone. It is not enough for them to say they back you, they need to communicate to the group the kind of change they want to make and why, and that you are working with your full support. Otherwise you will get as burned out and bitter as the rest of them.

    2. Midwest Red Sox Fan*

      I work in higher ed, and when we ran out of colored paper for a certain form that we used…we substituted white.

      O the drama!! :-)

      So, I can certainly empathize. In my case, folks have usually come around, but only if there is top down support for change. If the leadership is OK with “eh, this is the way we’ve always done it,” you may be fighting a losing battle.
      Good luck!

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I think you need to learn a bit about change management. I think it would also help to listen to people before trying to get buy-in, however irrational you think they’re being. They need to be treated like stakeholders.

      1. Jadeddisneycharacter*

        For context – I am not looking to implement anything major like structural changes, I am adding a form to a process that will merge 4 different processes into just one.

        Or 2 columns to a spreadsheet that clearly show queries and answers.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Doesn’t matter how big or small you think the scale is. That’s still change management. And as you’re surprised to be getting pushback – which (and I mean this kindly) was the *only* surprising thing about your post – I really recommend you learn more about that.

          Right now your mistake is to think that what you perceive as the scale or size of the change is how everyone else will perceive it, and to attempt to change things without consulting with people and making them feel like you’re working with them.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            In case not clear: the pushback wasn’t surprising but rather the fact it was unexpected.

    4. Working Rachel*

      You’re normal, you just have a difficult role. Creating change is always hard, and it sounds like you’re a new person trying to create change, which is even more likely to make people resist/be resentful. Senior management needs to back you fully, and you need to accept that this role will involve a lot of “selling” people on things–even tiny little spreadsheet changes!

      For the colleague that is leaving in two weeks, I don’t understand why you’re spending any time at all coaching her–seems like there’s no reason to interact with her more than absolutely necessary.

  81. Afiendishthingy*

    Who’s had a job requiring a lot of travel?

    I’ve had three phone/videoconference interviews this week for a traveling trainer/consultant job. It’s appealing in many ways– I’m very burnt out at my current job and want a role that isn’t all ongoing projects with rolling deadlines. The trainer position is a “finish at 4:30 pm and don’t bring any work home with you” job. So I feel like that will make a huge difference in my stress level. But it’s traveling 30 weeks of the year, to 44 states and Canada.

    I’m single and childfree, I just have two cats, and I’m a fairly experienced traveler. I don’t love air travel by any means, but I also don’t THINK it’s going to be a deal breaker for me. (Of course nothing is guaranteed now, I haven’t had an offer or anything, but the process is moving very quickly.)

    Thoughts? I’d mostly love to hear from people who’ve had similarly travel heavy jobs. Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      The trainer position is a “finish at 4:30 pm and don’t bring any work home with you” job

      Except for 60% of the year, you won’t be bringing yourself home, either. (Unless these are just day trips, there-and-back?)

      2. afiendishthingy*

        It’s hard for me to overemphasize how much anxiety I have about all the documentation and report writing I’m currently responsible for. I have ADD and managing long-term ongoing projects is a major weakness – and that’s about 70% of my current job. I’m pretty sure the trade off (plus the *cough* 30% pay increase) would be worth it to me. I do appreciate the reality checks though.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I see down-thread that this would likely be a limited-term position for you, and if that’s the case and you think the trade-off is worth it, then go for it!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve been in a relationship with someone who traveled extensively. It gets draining after a while. You lose friends because you’re never there. Dating is …difficult is the easiest word. Sure, you get to travel a lot, but it gets to the point where you no longer remember where you are until you look outside and see license plates. Time zones wear you down after a bit because you’ve flown from one end of the country to another. Yes, it’s fun in the beginning because you see all these fabulous places, but it gets tiring.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yeah. I can definitely see all of that.

        I don’t see this being an ultra long term job for me, but I feel like I could do it for at least a year or two. (I’ve been at my current job 3 years, I don’t have any stays under two years on my resume, I think it would be ok if this ends up being shorter term.)

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      It depends on what the travel is like also. Is it spend a week in location 1, then move to location 2 for week 2 or is it day 1 in location 1, day 2 in location 2, etc. If it’s the first, I could definitely handle it because you are more settled, but my husband has a job like number 2 and it is exhausting. He only travels about 25-30% but it is 5 cities in 5 days when he does it. He comes home and sleeps all weekend. I travel about 4-5 weeks a year but its like the first scenario and I actually enjoy it.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        It’s definitely not like your husband’s setup. As I understand it, when you have a “travel week” you go to one location to conduct a training, which are either 1, 3, or 5 business days depending on the course.

        They have a lot of customers in Hawaii where I’ve never been… I know the jet lag would be excruciating but… Hawaii.

    4. Tau*

      So I had a travel job that in one respect was *super* gentle as a travel jobs go, in the sense that I was travelling to a single fixed location and was staying in a flat, not a hotel. On the flip side, I spent 100% of my work time at the remote location.

      It wore me down so badly. Near the end I was almost in tears come Sunday afternoon. I didn’t quit the job because of the travel, but honestly when I did hand in my notice one of the top thoughts in my head was “oh my god I will actually be able to live in my own flat! I won’t have to spend every other weekend in the train!!”

      The thing that surprised me most, personally, was how easy it was at the start vs how hard it was at the end. I somehow thought that you’d have a lot of trouble with it at the start but then you’d get used to it and things would be okay, but it was the other way around for me – the first six months or so were fine, it was an adventure and a new experience and I was all pumped up. But then the shine started wearing off and I found that the travel wasn’t something I “got used to”. At the end – one and a half years in – I was genuinely worried I’d end up just staying home one Sunday and not show up for work come Monday just because I couldn’t face the trip.

      None of which is to say don’t do it. I’m glad I took my own travel job because it was fantastic, fantastic experience and there were a lot of other good things about it. But… be aware what you’re letting yourself in for.

      1. Tau*

        Oh yeah, other things:

        – food – even though I was staying in a flat at both ends, I found myself eating out more than I wanted to. The logistics of cooking are seriously complicated by “and in two days I’ll be gone for X amount of time.” I also bought more junk food than I’d have liked while travelling, because a) travelling makes me at least hungry b) when you’re at a train station halfway through and sick of the whole trip and bored out of your mind, buying junk food is an easy and effective way to keep your mood up.

        – hobbies – I found these pretty difficult to keep up, especially ones involving any sort of organization/other people. Guess who really wanted to join a choir or orchestra but was basically a homebody for those 18 months. :/ Going to the gym regularly met a similar fate; I found it really hard to coax myself out to do things when I felt like I was travelling all the time.

        – friends – my company was super incestuous (we had a lot of social events together, and I swear it seemed like half the people were dating another employee), and I think a large part of that was that it was really difficult to manage friendships with the travel. People gravitated to their coworkers because they understood what the other was going through and weren’t put off by them being gone all the time. Part of it may have been that most of us moved to the area for the job, but even then the point stands in that it was close to impossible to really meet anyone *new*.

        1. Mallows*

          Yes to the food – and sometimes to drinking. Constant travel can wreak havoc on your food habits and exercise habits when you are lonely in a hotel for nights at a time, the bar can be a serious attraction. This may not be a problem if you have more willpower than I do but that same level of travel for just 6 months for me had pretty bad effects.

    6. Student*

      You’re going to lose the cats. Dunno whether that’s a deal-breaker for you or not, but it’s a place to start thinking.

      This is the kind of job where you don’t get to make long term, in-person connections with anyone. You might get to go out a lot with many different people, but you aren’t going to be going out with a specific person regularly (either as platonic friends or romantic partners).

      Does it pay well enough for you to afford to keep your main housing empty most of the time? Will you / can you sub-let, or something? Can you make appropriate storage arrangements for your car? Your cat? Other property? Can someone check on your home maintenance issues while you’re out? What about mail? Are you savvy enough (and financially stable enough) to set up auto-payments on all your important bills?

      Do you have medical conditions that could impact you in this – where you might not be able to get back to a favored doctor easily? Do you have eating requirements that might make this difficult?

      Are you looking for a long-term job or a short-term job? This is the kind of job most people usually only do for a couple of years because they eventually want to settle down, or own property, or such.

    7. Thlayli*

      There’s benefits and disadvantages. The benefits are:
      – expenses which can save you a lot of money e.g. If you are allowed to expense food you save on your groceries for the week
      – housework done. If you are away all week you have very little cleaning when you come home
      – get to see the world. If you will be finished at 4:30 each day and have no prep work to do and are in the same place for the whole week – its tourist time! You may even be able to arrange your schedule to get some holidays or weekend breaks out of it with flights paid for.
      The disadvantages are:
      – flight times cutting into sleep. I used to have a box of red bull by my bed – without it I would never have made it to half my flights. Getting up at 4 am, travelling for 6 hours then arriving at 10 am and having to be awake and intelligent – that’s TOUGH
      – laundry/packing. 4 nights in a hotel room – just a bit too much for hand luggage a bit too little for checked baggage on (and checked bags are soo much more hassle). Then you get home with a case full of laundry. You will end up needing 2 weeks worth of business clothes because there will be some weekends you just don’t get enough laundry done
      – missing out on a lot of personal interaction at home. This depends on your situation but at the peak of travelling for me I was living with a guy (who I later married) so I did miss him a lot. Also family and friends may do stuff midweek you can’t go to
      – admin. This takes up SOOO much time. My company had people to book flights and hotels but it was better to book myself because they would go with the defaults and in the long run it was worth me spending the time to do it to make sure I got flights and accomodation that suited me. However it takes a lot of time to do this well. If you are going back to the same places frequently it gets much easier though. Doing the expense claims also sucks up a huge amount of time.

      All in all I found it to be a positive thing when I was in my 20s/early 30s and unencumbered. However I could not do it now with marriage mortgage and kids. So if that is what you want in your future then bear in mind you will have to completely change jobs at some point to have time with your spouse/kids/house. If that’s all ok then go for it!

      1. Thlayli*

        Couple of other thoughts. Hobbies can work depending on what they are. When I was coming up to gradings in tae Kwon do I used to ring around local clubs where I was going and ask if I could come for the night. The ITF has insurance as part of membership so I was basically covered everywhere so most clubs let me visit and just pay nightly subscription costs. It was really useful to train under a load of different instructors too I think it really helped me.
        There’s a really good movie with George Clooney where he has a job where he travels all the time. I remember watching it and saying “this is my life!” All the little tips and tricks he had for getting into the shortest queues in the airport and packing the bags and so on – I was like “that’s me that’s me!” I highly recommend it.

    8. Cobol*

      You mention this as a 2-3 year job. Would it set you up to do something more traditional, or would it put you down a path of higher travel jobs?

  82. Overeducated*

    Good morning all! This week I’m bouncing between frustration with work, exhaustion with job searching, and hope that at least I’m landing interviews. Overall I have that feeling of, “Why am I here, where I don’t feel like I’m making much of a positive contribution to society, and not home spending time with my family?” Of course, is that we need my paycheck to keep having a home, but how do you stay positive when you’re feeling doubtful about the value of your work?

    I’m also anxious to hear what the new ACA marketplace plans look like in my state, since huge price increases are in the news and we buy our own health insurance (a state of affairs that I hope the job search will change, but I’m stuck for now). I really think the current instability in that market will reduce people’s willingness to be self-employed or even take on positions that offer a fixed amount of cash but not actual benefits, like grant-funded postdocs. It certainly gives my spouse and me a different set of priorities than when the exchanges looked pretty stable and we made the decisions to take our current jobs.

  83. Anon4This*

    I’m wondering about how candid I should be with my superiors in my current situation.

    I was recently contacted about a new job at another company that would be a fantastic opportunity for the next step in my career. Typically I’d jump at the chance and not look back, but I’ve recently taken on a new (very high profile and important) role at my current company.

    Since I’ve only been in this new role a couple months, I wouldn’t normally think it would be a big deal to move on so soon, (if I get this new job I’d likely start after the new year). However, my manager, and some of the company’s top executives keep asking me how I’m liking the job, how I’m feeling about it, any problems I’m facing etc. I am feeling super guilty about basically lying to them straight to their faces and saying “everything is great, learning a lot,” when really I know that even if this other job doesn’t pan out, I don’t want to stay in this new role.

    I don’t want to have that type of conversation in the hallway or during a presentation when I’ve been asked so far, so I’ve kept my response light and casual. How candid SHOULD I be in my response to these questions given that I’ve only been in the job a short time, its of huge importance to the company and I know at this point that I am not interested in continuing in it longer than I have to. (For context, I took the role to keep from being laid off, which was a likely possibility for my previous role at this company, so even if I go back to that job, its unlikely that I’ll stick around).

    I want to protect MY interests in keeping my candidacy with this other company confidential and move on when I decide it’s best for ME, but I also think it’ll look like I should have been more candid with them since they’ve been directly asking me about my feelings on this role.

    Is this the time to just play the “a great advancement opportunity fell in my lap and I couldn’t refuse” card and just be done with it…or should I be having conversations with them now about how this new role isn’t for me long term.

    1. AMPG*

      “I wasn’t looking, but this great opportunity fell in my lap.” That’s your story and you’re sticking to it.

      If you end up staying, you can have a conversation about your long-term role with the company during your yearly review. Right now you’re still learning the role, so being honest that it’s not for you would look premature.

      1. oranges*

        Yep. I made the mistake of wanting to be too candid with management when I was in the running for another job, and am now getting freezed out. Not worth the risk.

  84. Lemon Zinger*

    How can I tell my boss that I’m burned out, while not harming my chances at getting promoted?

    I have worked 12-hour days the past three days this week. Last week I did two 12-hour days. I have to work tomorrow morning too. I am salaried and solo in a role usually filled by two people.

    Recently a promotion opportunity has appeared. I have no idea what the salary will be (listed as DOE) and have a feeling that they will undercut me as much as possible. I love my job and would appreciate being paid more and having a title that more accurately describes what I do, but I am beginning to think that nobody here cares about a healthy work-life balance.

    My mental health has been really suffering this month because of how overworked I am. I don’t have time to work out, clean my house, go grocery shopping, or cook anything more elaborate than scrambled eggs for dinner.

    Advice?

    1. NacSacJack*

      Tell your boss. I had to do so recently because my long hours were affecting my home life (dogs) and negatively impacting my health. My boss told me I should be leaving by 4pm. Didnt happen that week, but I know now I have permission to say, “No, I’m going home now. Let’s talk tomorrow” It was irritating because I’m known as a late arrival/late depature and finally, I said, “Hey, I work at 7am in the morning from home, just not in the office.” He is very supportive.

    2. soupmonger*

      Make up your mind! Do you want to deal with the current burnout, or do you want to apply for the promotion? If you want promotion, apply but say nothing about your current situation. If you want to deal with the burnout, then do so but I’d approach it from the direction of trying to solve the fact that two people used to do your job and now there’s only one. So rather than coming at it from a ‘can’t do this anymore’ approach, rather a ‘when can we look at the workload’.

      But bear in mind that a promotion from your current post may result in more burnout.

  85. Anon For This Of Course*

    I just wanted to thank the folks who commented on a question I posted last week (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/10/open-thread-october-6-7-2017.html) about being a woman and having a crush on my boss who is also a woman.

    Elfie, EddieSherbert, Valkyrie, medium of ballpoint, Specialk9, Natalie, Detective Amy Santiago, Anion, Fiennes, Stop that Goat — you all were fantastically helpful and kind. I really appreciated you taking the time to respond with care.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    Anon For This Of Course

  86. Anons*

    I saw this (a couple bits paraphrased below) in an ad this week for a position requiring a professional degree and experience in the profession:

    * Please provide answers to supplemental questions for the hiring manager’s review. This will be considered the first interview for this position. When completing the supplemental questions, please include all relevant experience, education, and training as applicable, and explain all answers thoroughly. Give specific examples of your experience, including your role and responsibilities. Your supplemental question responses must be no longer than two pages, single spaced, 12 point font.

    There are 6 supplemental questions, all resolvable in a phone screen (and probably a fair bit would be captured in a tailored resume and on the application where you have to list past jobs), but would take a lot of effort to cram into the two pages while including “all relevant experience, education, and training” explained thoroughly. The supplemental questions include this hopelessly vague inquiry: “Describe your experience relating to working in a [profession] office or team.”

    Am I just nuts, or does this make you cringe? I mean… “This will be considered the first interview for this position”? Wow. The whole think feels like a time suck for a candidate trying to deal with the supplemental questions on top of the application form, resume, and cover letter. I feel like I would have to be desperate to even bother.

    I don’t think supplemental questions are necessarily a bad idea in general to separate those genuinely interested from those applying for anything (I am reminded of the AAM poster who got huge numbers of applicants to fill a filing clerk role, which only had the job duty of filing, and was able to screen out a large percentage of applicants by asking them to rate their level of interest in the job duty of filing as “interested” and “not interested.” All the “not interested” were removed from the applicant pool.) But the approach here seems poorly worded and the questions not well-designed.

    1. fposte*

      I think many things, none of them good. One additional thing I think is that nobody is going to read 12 pages of essays from every candidate, so most of that writing is totally pointless, which frosts my efficient behind. At least limit this to those who have survived the first cut.

      But really, it’s stupid, period; it’s asking for way too much from honest candidates and asking to be bamboozled by the dishonest.

    2. Murphy*

      I had something like that, for my current job but it was after the application and basically took the place of a phone screen. After reviewing initial resume/applications, they sent the questionnaire to those they were interested in, and then brought a subset of those in for an interview. I liked it, because it let me think about my answers (and obviously I did well because they interviewed me and hired me.)

      But that’s too much to ask of people up front.

  87. Xangotron*

    All…
    A job I accepted seven months ago has turned into a literal nightmare. The upper management is either feckless, passive aggressive, or just plain not present. They’ve decided that no one is working enough, and dumped projects that are not in half the office’s job descriptions onto everyone – all while reinforcing that we only get 5 days PTO, and that breaks and lunches that we have to take from our desks. The kicker? If we’re chatting lightly while working, the worst of them will HOVER and loudly say that we clearly don’t have enough to do if we can talk and work at the same time.

    I’ve been applying around but not yet heard anything. That alone is demoralizing, but my main question is – how do I handle any potential interviews given this draconian PTO situation? And what do I say when I leave other than, “Peace out”? Happy to handle this in comments or more privately – my blood pressure is rising just typing this.

    1. Xangotron*

      To follow up on this… I never got a bonus I was promised. I have been specifically *yelled at* by someone who is not even in my chain of command but is married to the CEO. I’ve been on the receiving end of passive aggressive emails for things that I did not know were problems, or were even in my wheelhouse. After that incident, I was told ‘that was what it was like for a woman in the workplace’ and to get used to it – from another woman!

      1. clow*

        you could say that the company isn’t a good fit for you, since you haven’t been there very long. I’m not sure if they will ask you to elaborate though :/

    2. Anon Accountant*

      I’ve read advice here about “the job and work changed significantly and I was hired to paint teapots, which I have an excellent track record at. This role changed to a teapot engineer and I’m seeking to move back to teapot painting. These changes to the job are permanent”.

    3. Cobol*

      There’s nothing you can say that will get people like that to realize they are bad. Remember they will be a reference, so leave on as good of a foot as you can, and take solace in being gone.

  88. Kate*

    never would have thought about this before, but the update about the Christian employee earlier this week got me thinking…

    I have a piece of art hung up in my office. It is a quote from the Pirkei Avot (commonly translated as Ethics of the Fathers), in Hebrew and English:

    “It is not incumbent upon you to complete the work [of repairing the world] but neither are you free to desist from it.”

    I work in human rights, and it’s a quote that really speaks to me. I’ve never thought of it as being a ‘religious’ quote, probably since I am rather secular, but it is definitely sourced from a very Jewish text.

    …am I walking a fine line by hanging it in my office?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      It doesn’t seem religious to me, and I think it conveys a great sentiment about the work you are involved in.

    2. fposte*

      1) Just because it’s in Hebrew doesn’t mean it’s a statement of your personal faith and 2) I disagreed with the implications in some comments that your religion should be invisible at work anyway. It seems fine to me.

    3. Manders*

      That seems perfectly all right to me, and I agree with you that it doesn’t really come off as a religious quote.

      I’m not all that put off by small signs of someone’s personal religion at work either. The Christian employee’s behavior was so over the top that it clearly wasn’t okay, but if someone wants to have a tasteful piece of art in their office with a religious origin it really doesn’t bother me.

      1. Artemesia*

        I am a Freethinker and I am not bothered by a little cross on someone’s desk or a small Biblical quote or other small religious expression. This quote seems applicable to much and relevant to your role. It would not stand out as inappropriate to me. There is a difference between any of this and over the top proselytizing.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      It’s not an “OMG RELIGIOUS REFERENCE” type thing, you’re not being obnoxious, you’re not harassing people, etc. You’re fine.

  89. Augusta Sugarbean*

    Question for any accounting people: are accounting certificates from community colleges (there are two different ones: 1 year of coursework and less-than-one year of coursework) likely to be worthwhile? By that I mean are employers likely to consider that legit education or is it too University of Phoenix-y?

    I need to do something to find new work. I have a BS with plenty of post-bacc math, econ, & stats. I’ve been working in A&D in a social services agency and need a new direction. I used to work as an admin assistant and for a year and a half I’ve been applying for those types of jobs. I’ve mostly gotten interview but no offers. My current job is increasingly terrible and I need to do *something* to increase my chances.

    The coursework includes courses like:
    Financial Accounting I & II or General Accounting I & II
    Payroll Accounting
    Business Law I
    Business Forecasting
    And some other classes like English Comp and keyboarding which I’m sure I can get waived or test out of.

    Thanks for any input!

    1. Anon in IL*

      I was in your situation. I had a BA and then got an accounting certificate at a community college. This was enough to get my foot in the door doing seasonal tax work. In my state, the accounting certificate was enough to qualify me to sit for the CPA exam, which I eventually did. One thing that my accounting coursework did not include that would have been very helpful in my job was a course in QuickBooks. If your community college offers that I strongly recommend it in addition to the other coursework.

    2. Simone R*

      No idea about how worthwhile those classes would be in your field but community colleges are definitely not considered at the level of university of Phoenix! Much more reputable.

      1. Augusta Sugarbean*

        Oh, I didn’t mean community colleges in general. I just want to make sure the certificate is legit and useful, as opposed to the longer term accounting education programs. I really, really need to get a new job sooner than two years.

          1. Augusta Sugarbean*

            Well, that’s a red flag – one of the two community colleges I’m looking say they don’t have stats because they aren’t required to track them. I haven’t tracked down stats on the other one yet.

    3. Natalie*

      I think it would probably help to get you a bookkeeping or accounting assistant job. General financial accounting concepts aren’t intuitive (in my experience) so just having a good grounding in those plus the vocabulary is hugely helpful.

      Once you’ve completed your certificate, connect with some staffing firms as well. At least in my area, it seems like most of the in-house accounting jobs go through an agency.

  90. Argh!*

    This drives me crazy: poor communication between departments. This week I discovered a few things that our IT people did that directly impacted the department I manage. I was given no notice before and nobody said anything after. All I want would be “Hey Argh!, we dismantled the project you fought for,” or “Hey Argh! Your key no longer works in this door. I wouldn’t want you to be embarrassed trying to open it for the delivery guy.”

    This kind of thing is the origin of my screen name here!

  91. KatieKate*

    So my organization just switched over to Sharepoint but my files haven’t figured transferring over so I can’t work today. ARGGGGG

  92. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    AAAAARRRRGGGHHH – just need to rant.

    I have a coworker who drives me crazy As in want-to-sneak-up-behind-her-and-brain-her-with-a-piece-of-lumber crazy. Let’s call her NannyGoat (because that’s how my brain refers to her).

    This morning we were all standing talking and one coworker, Eugene, was talking about a teapot color order that had gotten thrown back but I had fixed. NannyGoat says she had one too yesterday. As I process all teapot orders, I knew this was wrong. The only one that had this problem yesterday was Eugene’s. She argues with me that it wasn’t because she had called the Spout Department and gotten it straightened out. I, again, said no that this was Eugene’s order as I keep a virtual and handwritten record of what I order and when. NannyGoat rolls her eyes and stomps off to her desk…..and promptly discovers I was right. [Side note, all she had to do was look at the order and see the project name since this isn’t an uncommon product and I order it for lots of projects.]

    Color Department cancels the order and sends it back to me. Which has now doubled my work since I had fixed last night. She comes over, giggling, and says that I shouldn’t blame Spout Department for this one. I stared at her, blankly, and said, “I don’t.”

  93. tempmanager*

    Is it bad if you decide not to continue in management because it is easier to be an employee? I am on a temporary management assignment and while my superiors are happy with my performance, I am just tired. I miss the flexibility of old job. I think if I am honest my introvert tendencies make this tiring The money is not really any different in management. I wonder if “being good at it” is enough. This may be more a personal than work question. Is it bad to consciously decide that not climbing the ladder is just fine? (in my org maybe 1 in 10 do).

    1. Althea*

      No! Management is not for everyone. Being happy in a job, or being happy that the job is good enough, is perfectly okay. You aren’t defined by the height of your corporate ladder rung.

    3. Just Tea For Me, Thanks*

      It is absolutely fine! Your work should give you energy and a good feeling about yourself. Finding out what you want is difficult, but you seem to know exactly what you want – that’s good! If you feel happier as an employee, don’t stay in management. Being happy in your job is so incredibly important!

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Managing is a huge pain in the ass, even in the best of circumstances. You should really love it or everyone suffers (you, your employees, your organization).

      1. Lehigh*

        Oh! I think I may be incredibly dense, but do people actually enjoy it? I sort of thought managers got paid more because of course everyone hates the work. Is that not why?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ha, no! Managers get paid more because there are way more responsibilities and they’re carrying much weight (they’re charged with ensuring a whole department/team/area of work succeeds). And there are more stresses and headaches. But it’s not supposed to be hardship pay in the sense that you’re talking about!

    5. AMPG*

      I think it’s totally fine, and even preferable, to not go for management just because it’s the “logical next step.” The only potential issue is that some company cultures don’t really value an “excel in place” type of employee, so you’ll need to figure out if you’re at one of them. As long you’re valued for what you do, just keep doing it.

    6. Argh!*

      There’s no pyramid if most people want to rise. Most people are happy to do a job and not have to deal with the kinds of crap you see written about here. That’s how organizations work best. If everyone wanted a promotion, 90% of staff would be frustrated.

    7. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Not at all. I will never take a supervisory level position again. Too many years of stress from having to deal with people. Much prefer going back to a behind the scenes technical role. I’m introverted by nature and find office politics draining.

    8. Artemesia*

      You should state your desire to move back or ‘justify’ if asked why you did it by saying, I am just happier glazing teapots than managing other people struggling to glaze teapots. I have found I am a hands on person.’

      Lots of people make the mistake of leaving the work they like to something that drives them crazy because that is where the promotions are.

    9. Kismet*

      No, not at all! And honestly, this is one reason why I hate how everyone pushes the leadership thing so hard – leadership is a particular skillset that isn’t everyone’s thing, and it’s at least partly a personality thing as well. I know I work better when I can be the quiet, competent person in the background responsible only for my own work and given clear directions from above, and I frankly find the whole obsession some people/places have with leadership kind of insulting, as if I can’t be valuable unless I’m in the forefront taking charge of things. It’s like people haven’t heard the saying about cooks and kitchens.

      Also, good on you for recognizing that you don’t like management and don’t want to do it. I suspect a lot of the bad managers I’ve had in the past were ones who were either unhappy managing, in way over their heads, or both, but couldn’t admit it.

  94. Anonymous for Stress Relief*

    I posted several weeks ago about issues I was having with a temporary employee who wasn’t doing the work as assigned and who I was having trouble getting to be responsive to feedback. The commentariat gave me lots of helpful advice, both on how to coach him and how to deal with my stress levels. I gave an update that things seemed to be improving, but I wanted to give one more update now that some of the dust has settled.

    The daily check ins to redirect him on projects early worked great. After a week, he started coming to me first when he had ideas about doing things differently than what was assigned- most of which I had to shut down, but some of which were truly terrific. As he became confident I would either approve his ideas or explain why they wouldn’t work for a particular project, I was able to cut back on the check ins so now we only have to meet weekly.

    The shocking news (to me, anyway) is that based on the the results we started to achieve, we got approved for a permanent position- and that he was interested in taking it instead of continuing to do consulting work. He will be a full time permanent team member officially starting Monday!

    This never would have happened without the advice from this board. Thank you all for helping me turn this situation from a headache to a win!

  95. Althea*

    I have a communication problem.

    So, I had an email back and forth with a colleague. He asks me a simple question, I answer it. He say, “Oh, I thought we discussed making the teapot spout shorter?” I said, “No, we didn’t discuss it.” In my head I’m thinking, if we had discussed it, I would have said no way, because it would lessen the amount of water in the pot. He says, “Well, I remember discussing it. Maybe you didn’t hear me?”

    I’m offended. I pause before responding. I don’t say, you’re wrong and making shit up. I say, “What I recall is that we discussed changing the color of the spout, based on X and Y reasons. We agreed to purple because X was more important. Perhaps I missed some part of the conversation. Let me know your thoughts on spout length in our next meeting for discussion.” This eases things up and the conversation moves on.

    Now, I know diplomatically speaking being the “soft” one tends to be the right move – say that maybe you missed something, and keep the conversation on the real topic needing discussion instead of insisting on something that did/didn’t happen, right/wrong. But it’s been happening a lot, with the same person. I’m worried that his constant assertions of the rightness of his version will make it look like he is, in fact, always right, and I’m the one making lots of mistakes and missing things.

    Is there a point at which I should be more assertive about these kinds of things? Is there anything I should do to drive down the annoyance factor when it happens again?

    1. Just Tea For Me, Thanks*

      I think you handled it very well! I understand the annoyance since it keeps happening. Is there a way of documenting after the meeting? Just a short e-mail with bulletpoints for instance to keep track of what was discussed and what actions will have to be executed? Good luck!

    2. afiendishthingy*

      I think you could be more assertive. I don’t think there’s any need to go back on forth on whether spout length was discussed or not. I would say something like “I don’t recall discussing that, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to make the spout shorter because x.”

      1. Emi.*

        Agree–if you jump straight to whether the spout should actually be shorter, it’s harder for him to get his “maybe you didn’t hear me” in (also, if he says something and you don’t hear him, that’s not a discussion, so ???). And keep a record of your discussions, like Just Tea For Me, Thanks says.

        1. Althea*

          Hm. I’ll have to think about this. I usually save critical comments on someone’s preferred course of action for verbal discussions, because it can get into an argument over email that’s hard to manage. But maybe with him it would short-circuit a different kind of unproductive email.

          1. Emi.*

            Oh, that’s a good point I hadn’t thought of. What about “That didn’t come up, but I don’t think it would work–let’s discuss it (at our next meeting|this afternoon|___)”?

    3. Havarti*

      Was this imaginary talk of spout length in a one-on-one meeting or group setting? It may be worth to summarize what gets discussed in meetings in a follow-up email to the folks involved so you have a written record to fall back on. There’s a time and place for a diplomatic “I seem to have lost your file, could you resend it” when no file was ever sent to begin with but decisions on what actions to take next shouldn’t be open to one person’s interpretations of a conversation that may or may not have happened somewhere out there in the great blue yonder.

      1. Althea*

        I was thinking about this… it was just a short touch-base with a group working on that project. I didn’t want to appeal to the others and start something bigger, so I have no idea at this point what they think about it. It sounds exhausting to take notes on every meeting (I usually just note my own action points) but I may do it in self-defense. :\

        1. Havarti*

          Sure it’s exhausting taking notes to CYA but so is putting up with a coworker gaslighting you. Maybe someone else (but not problematic coworker) can handle the note-taking? Maybe if someone else heads the meeting, see if they’ll help with keeping track of what is discussed. It doesn’t have to be a big deal – bullets like Just Tea mentioned. If there’s a bunch of stuff being covered, a recap could benefit everyone anyway.

          When someone says “Well, I remember discussing it. Maybe you didn’t hear me?” – there isn’t a good way to respond to that without making yourself sound careless (either you forgot or you weren’t paying attention). You could double-down on “No, we didn’t discuss it.” but with nothing in writing to back you up, it becomes he said/she said. :/

    4. Chriama*

      I might passive-aggressively say something like “well it can’t have been much of a discussion if you were speaking and I couldn’t hear you ;)” complete with ironic winking face.

      1. Althea*

        Hahaha, I love this! I’m not convinced I could even say this out loud in the right tone of voice, though, much less send it over email!

    5. SusanIvanova*

      If he makes habit of challenging your recollection of things, that has the faint whiff of gaslighting about it. I agree with the others – keep track of things with email so when he pulls stuff like this, you’ve got something to point at.

    6. Kismet*

      It’s the “maybe you didn’t hear me” + the fact that he’s done this a lot that makes me think he is trying to somehow undermine you or do an end run around you, and I think your instincts are right that this isn’t something where the softer answer is helpful – because it does wind up playing into the narrative this guy is constructing, that you are the problem.

      I think the part you need to drop, if you still want to maintain a softer tone, is the part where you accept a share of the blame. He is trying to shift the blame onto you, so responding with “perhaps I missed some part of the conversation” is ceding him the ground he wants.

      I have a question for you – how does he respond when you push back? Does he come back in the next meeting and actually have the discussion he failed to have before, or does he keep doing this end-run stuff where he essentially makes up his own answers? I ask because if he’s doing the latter you’re going to need to be more assertive still and probably start replying more sharply to these kinds of emails, something like “We discussed color, not spout length” and depending on his attitude, you may have to add something like “I wouldn’t have agreed to shorter spouts,” just to have it there in a form you can reference to him that you did tell him no.

  96. JaneB*

    Someone in my building at work has started using that poo-pouri stuff you put in the toilet before going, and it STINKS so much worse than any bathroom odours that there were before.

    I’m resisting the passive-aggressive sign urge so far, & I have no idea who it is, but just wanted to share how ANNOYING these little things are (and it hurts my sinuses…)

  97. KK*

    Hi all. I posted last week in the open thread about being in the awkward position of being asked to continuously give documentation on my supervisor to my boss, on his journey to getting her fired (if you didn’t read it and would like to, it’s the very first comment on last Friday’s open thread).

    Well…something totally shocking and unexpected happened yesterday. My BOSS got fired. The HR manager, vice president, and several other managers from our corporate office (an hour away from our office) came to our branch early in the morning, gathered everyone in the office for a meeting, and let us know that they “had to let Boss go this morning.” They didn’t give any additional details in the meeting, but just assured us everything would be okay, and they were there to support us. To be clear, my boss was the General Manager of our entire branch (of about 20 employees), and had been with the company since 1998. He had great relationships with our customers, was very involved in assisting our sales people, and has a ton of industry knowledge. (I know a lot of you last week commented “your boss sucks.” While he did handle the situation with my supervisor inappropriately, I just wanted to give some background as to why it’s so surprising that he was fired since he made our branch so profitable.)

    After the meeting, the HR manager requested to meet with me individually. He started by saying, “I know Boss thought very highly of you, and this may be difficult, but there are certain things that were brought to our attention in which the only action we were able to take was to let him go.” He continued by asking me to please stick it out, because my coworkers and everyone at the company values me and loves working with me. He indicated that Boss’s firing had nothing to do with my supervisor. He assured me that my supervisor’s slate “won’t be wiped clean”, despite my boss (who had been pushing for her to be fired) being let go himself (also, before you say that the HR manager shouldn’t have given me a status update on my supervisor, he prefaced it by saying he was only telling me because I had been so involved in providing documentation). He also apologized that I was put in an awkward position with my boss constantly asking me for documentation on my supervisor.

    Anyway, I’m just kind of in a state of shock, and I’m contemplating jumping ship (I know most of you all said last week that I should be looking elsewhere anyway). Obviously, I don’t know the details of why my boss was fired, and it could have been totally justified. However, I don’t know if I can work in an office where my terrible, awful supervisor is still around (and probably feels as if she is off the hook now that my boss is gone). It just seems like a really toxic environment that will only get worse. It’s only been a day and morale amongst our office is at an all-time low, as our boss was depended on for so much. I’m just feeling a little sad because I like the work I do here, am valued by the company, and don’t want to look for another company when this one, overall, has been so good to me (I came from a horrible, toxic job, and am fearful of getting myself into a situation like that again).

    I guess I don’t really have a question, but just any advice and positive thoughts/prayers would be appreciated!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It sounds like HR is aware of the issues with your terrible supervisor, so that’s at least something, but I don’t blame you for wanting to start looking elsewhere at this point.

      Do something nice for yourself over the weekend.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d wait and see who they hire to replace your boss. It’s possible it’ll be someone who actually does something about your terrible supervisor.

    3. Snickerdoodle*

      Holy wow. Talk about a plot twist. While I’m glad you’re no longer in the awkward documentation situation, I definitely think your feelings about jumping ship are legitimate. Are there plans to bring in a new manager to replace your boss? If so, maybe stick around and see if NewBoss is finally able to remove your supervisor? Though I don’t think anyone here would blame you for keeping up the job hunt and leaving sooner. It sounds like they’re being genuine about valuing you and wanting to keep you around.

      Do something you enjoy this weekend to try and take your mind off it.

  98. Crystal Smith*

    How do people with pets with special needs manage conferences, etc? My boss has been encouraging me to do more professional development, including going to conferences that are typically 1-2 days and require at least one but usually two overnight stays. The problem is my cat, who is and will always be on medication 3 times a day. It would be a veeerrrry big stretch for me to afford a petsitter to come that often for more than a day, and a Very Big Favor to ask of my friends(and I would be pretty worried to leave her, to be honest!) But, I obviously can’t put my professional development on hold indefinitely because of my cat! I’ve done what I can remotely (webinars, etc.) but at a certain point I’m going to have to actually go somewhere. Has anyone else had this issue? How did you work it out?

    1. Manders*

      Is boarding at your vet’s office or a kennel with trained staff an option? It’s more disruptive for your cat, but you’d know that she’s being taken care of appropriately.

      Some petsitting services do have people who can give medications multiple times a day, so that could be an option too. I agree that it’s a lot to ask of a friend, although you might be able to make it work with a few different friends switching off.

      1. Crystal Smith*

        I don’t think she would do well being boarded, even for a short time – she doesn’t travel well and evidently the vet has a note on her file about how she’s… let’s say difficult to handle? (Not that they wouldn’t take her, just that I’m sure she would be 3000% stressed out the entire time she was there, and, well, the vet techs always greet me with “we’ve heard so much about you!”)

        A lot of the petsitter concern for me is cost – multiple visits add up really fast in my area, but I’ll look around some more. If the stars really aligned I could probably cobble together a few different friends to come by, I hadn’t thought of that!

        1. SusanIvanova*

          Has she been boarded before? She might surprise you. My cat was a terror in vet visits – I bought doggy booties to keep her from shredding the techs. But when she was being boarded she turned into one of their favorites, always friendly and ready to cuddle – even the techs said so.

    2. Simone R*

      Could you find a responsible college student to come house-sit/take care of your cat? I know I would have loved a break from a dorm in college and the price of taking care of a cat would have been fine! It might be weird for a student you have no connection with but maybe someone you’re tangentially connected with?

      1. Crystal Smith*

        Maybe! A wrinkle is that I work at a college and supervise students, and would be reluctant to mingle those worlds, if that makes sense? Still, maybe some colleagues have had good luck with specific people.

        1. valc2323*

          Does your college have a vet tech or pre-vet or veterinary medicine program? Maybe look there for students you don’t supervise that would be willing and able to meet your needs.

        2. TL -*

          Oh, I pet sat for a professor in my department and it was never a big deal – I missed my puppies and I got to play with and walk his doggy whenever I was stressed so it was a win-win.

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      My friend with special needs pets hired a vet tech from the nearby vet’s office to come by. It’s worth asking your vet if any staff do these type of side jobs.

    4. La Revancha*

      I love Rover.com! I had to find someone to watch my 2 crazy terriers (one is good with other people, the other is not, and both are not good with other animals). One is a sneaky escape artist so I am always nervous leaving him with people because if you’re not aware of what tricks he can pull, he will be out the door and down the street within a second! I met several people, brought my dogs over there with me, and ended up really liking one of the guys! I left my dogs at his house for 5 days (Rover sitters also come to your house). My pet sitter sent photos every few hours along with updates. My sneaky one liked the sitter so much he escaped from the room they were sleeping in and jumped right in the guys’ bed! You can filter your search results to find sitters who are home most of the day, who don’t have other pets, who don’t have children, etc.

    5. La Revancha*

      I love Rover.com! I have 2 crazy terriers and was always afraid of leaving them with other people. Both are AWFUL with other dogs, one is terrible on a leash and an escape artist, and the other doesn’t like new people. I searched on Rover for someone that stayed home most of the day, didn’t have other pets, had a fenced in yard, and lived alone. I found a few people and met with them (and brought my dogs) and ended up really liking one of the guys! I left my dogs at his house for 5 days. He sent multiple messages with photos along with updates. They played fetch most of the day so they got plenty of exercise :) the sneaky one even got out of the room they were staying and jumped into his bed to snuggle at night! They also have services where the pet sitter will come to your house, as well as people who are trained to give medicine to animals. Really recommend trying it out!

    6. oranges & lemons*

      Depending on the difficulty of giving medication to your cat, I’m not sure that it would be ideal to have your friends do it. If it’s just a matter of being there to dispense the medication, then it’s probably fine, but I’ve had pets with medication needs that were more challenging (like having to stick a pill down the back of their throats) and I don’t think is reasonable to expect the average person to be able to do that. Sorry if I’m coming across as a downer, but I think it’s worth being clear with yourself on how difficult it would be for someone who’s not used to the routine, and who your cat probably won’t immediately trust. I’m sorry–it’s a tough situation.

    7. Anono-me*

      Is there some sort of work you could trade with one of your friends for?

      I would totally come give your cat her meds for a week in exchange for you doing my ironing.

      Alternatively, some smaller hotels allow pets. If you are driving, would it make sense to bring your cat and give kitty her medicines yourself? ( I know not all cats travel well, but some do)

      1. Anono-me*

        Also have you talked to your vet about this. S/he may have some ideas. Also you may be able to switch kitty to a higher dose of medicine twice a day,at least temporarily.

    8. Kismet*

      This is probably a really stupid question, but have you asked your vet for ideas? They might know of services in the area that would be able to take care of your cat properly.

    9. mreasy*

      I had the same issue (2 cats, each with myriad issues). My primary suggestion is to start seriously dating someone who will then be obligated to take care of your kiddos while you’re out of town. Okay, not really (but that DOES work). Unfortunately, I had to spend a lot of money I couldn’t really afford for pet sitters to come 2x a day (plus a vet tech to give subQ fluids). One job helped subsidize it but otherwise I had to eat the coat & hope it would help with eventual increased salary. If you have one trusted friend you could rely on in these cases, who likes your cats, you could train that person on the meds & pay them a good amount but less than you’d pay a pro (or do something fun like take them out to a nice dinner later).

      1. Laura*

        I used to pay a nurse at my local vet’s to come in and inject my diabetic cat twice a day. It wasn’t that expensive.

  99. Mischa*

    Lawyers! My law school career services office is pushing the idea that we should exclusively send hand written notes and follow up with phone calls after interviews. I’m really hesitant on the phone calls based on previous professional experience and what people on AAM have said. So, lawyers. What are your thoughts? How would you want a law student to contact you after an interview? Would you want them to not contact you at all?

    1. CatCat*

      A phone call would be very annoying and not reflect well on the candidate.

      A written post-interview thank you is not something that I would expect and would be unlikely to sway me to favor a candidate regardless of medium. A handwritten note seems like a waste of your time though and one more thing to stress about.

      I’m assuming the above is for a job interview rather than an informational interview.

      1. Mischa*

        This is for job interviews, correct. I can kind of understand the handwritten note, in addition to an email, but I absolutely cannot believe they are encouraging students to follow up with a phone call. What lawyer who has billable hours is going to want to tear themselves away from their work to answer a phone call from a student? Seems crazy to me.

        1. CatCat*

          The only reason I can think to call is if you haven’t heard anything about Position #1 AND you have an offer elsewhere for Position #2, but you are more interested in Position #1. That will give the employer for Position #1 a chance to get their rear in gear on making an offer if you are the top candidate. (And even here, you could just email rather than call.)

          1. Former Biglaw Stormtrooper*

            At my old firm, the way to handle this would have been to call or email the head of recruiting, who would then circle up with the hiring committee.

    2. Marcy*

      Do not call to follow up after interviews. Handwritten notes are fine but add nothing IMHO, and are more trouble than they are worth.

    3. Former Biglaw Stormtrooper*

      Ex-biglaw here, and I interviewed a lot of summer associates in the years before I left the firm. Do not call. A thank you email would be fine; a hand-written thank you note would be a little unusual (at least for the well-known firm in NYC where I was) but also fine. On not contacting them at all, your mileage may vary–I wouldn’t have cared if I didn’t get a thank you note, but some others might have.

    4. Cobol*

      ****I am not a lawyer*****
      Can you ask why they are recommending? Is it just bad advice, or are they getting it from somewhere? My experience is big corporate, or a place that is more cosmopolitan just email, and smaller more old-fashioned places send an email and a letter (I’d mention you sent an email in the letter).

  100. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

    So I wrote last week about how to talk to my boss about leaving the organization in a way that left the door open. Well, I spoke with my boss and was just honest about why I was looking to leave and how much I enjoyed it at the organization, and she decided to counteroffer! This is very exciting (and makes me feel very valued) but I’m in a pickle trying to figure out what the best option is.

    Offer 1 – current organization. At least 10k salary bump (official numbers expected later today). Bump to director level. Lots more work and responsibility. But get to learn new areas that I wouldn’t normally get exposure to in my job that would make me very marketable down the line.

    Upside – Love the organization, love my coworkers, even love my job even though I’m already overworked.
    Downside – Housing in my area is extremely expensive, I would be more financially stable (woohoo) but I would NEVER be able to afford to buy a place and I would be able to save very little (<350 a month).

    Offer 2 – organization in Texas. 10k salary bump. Bump to Assistant Director level. Exposure to new technologies/softwares. Limited exposure to areas outside my job, not sure about progression to Director level (director position eliminated and replaced by Asst Director position).

    Upside – housing is affordable, I could afford to buy soon and build equity. Lots of exposure to different technologies within my specific niche area that would not happen at current org. Will be able to pursue doctorate.
    Downside – may get stuck at Asst. Director level and not be able to progress. Somewhat isolated area. Likely will have nothing in common with locals.

    As I said, very very tricky position for me, and I’d love to know what other people think or if someone’s thought of something that I haven’t considered yet. What would you do in my position?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      If I were in your shoes, I would take the counteroffer at your current organization for many reasons, but the #1 being that you don’t sound sure about the locale in which you are seemingly putting down roots. Accepting the counteroffer and promotion doesn’t preclude you from keeping your eye out for future opportunities in locations that won’t make you feel isolated/not fit in.

    2. Althea*

      You might want to consider worst-case scenarios in both jobs. Worst case on first option is that they continue to overwork you in the new position, and you feel continuously dissatisfied with the money.

      Worst case in option 2 is that you move far away from your network, don’t like the org/boss/coworkers, don’t like new location, and don’t get the skills you hope for.

      Personally I would stay with option 1, because I prefer to stay with things that I know are awesome. And I would care more about a good boss and coworkers than I would about some specific job opportunity.

      Also, you can always leave your current job later. Meanwhile, you’d have some great stuff for your resume.

      1. Artemesia*

        Normally I would say not to accept a counteroffer but moving to a small conservative town (you indicated that was not you in the last note) you don’t know and being isolated seems very risky. I would accept the counter offer and continue to look for another job. You could take a break in the search for a couple three months and see how you settle in to the new role and then keep a quiet search going. And also begin to research towns you would like to live in and perhaps focus the search those places.

        1. Cobol*

          Agree with this. Housing cost seems to be your primary concern. Not that it isn’t a valid influencer, but I’d caution against making any sort of move because of it.

    3. Cruciatus*

      I would also go with #1. What are you doing for housing now? Do you need to buy a house or could you stay put a little longer to increase your down payment? Are there other compromises you could make (a roommate, renting long term, moving further out of town, etc.) But overall, #1 sounds like the better option overall. If it helps, it’s the better option *for right now*. You are not stuck in that position forever if your needs change.

      1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

        I’m renting right now and the 10k raise will allow me to not have to dip into my savings every month, but realistically speaking, I’m not going to be able to save. My current lease has a stipulation that I can’t have roommates. I can’t afford to move elsewhere because post-hurricane the rents in the area have risen exponentially. Moving further out of town isn’t an option also do to hurricane issues (wiped out the areas that would be reasonable commuting distance and also remaining rentals in those areas are already rented out or too pricey).

    4. Overeducated*

      To me this sounds like one major question is not even about the job, it’s about your life outside work. Would you rather stay where you are, where presumably you know people and definitely know you like your organization, or is it more important to own a home even if it means a major move? Cost of living sounds like the biggest attraction of the external offer, so it would have to outweigh whatever other quality of life factors you have in your current location.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’d keep in mind something you’ve learned about your employer through this process: they won’t give you what you need (more $$, a title bump, better work) unless you threaten to leave.

      That’s not a dealbreaker, but it’s important information.

      1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

        So…I’m not going to lie, I’ve suspected that my current employers has been taking advantage of me by not paying me a fair wage for what I do for some time now. This suspicion was just confirmed by the offer I received from them. Yes, they are upping my salary by 10k and my title. But my new tasks at the higher title? All things I already do that had previously fallen under “other duties as assigned”. And when my boss read through it all with me, she literally said “oh you do this already, and you do this too”. There are no new items on the description. So they walked in all proud of themselves for giving me the raise that I have deserved all along. To say I’m a bit upset right now is an understatement.

        1. Cruciatus*

          Hmmm. That is new information. Something I haven’t seen too much is whether you can negotiate a counter offer. Assuming you can, is there a number that could solve all your problems regarding housing, feeling you’re paid your going rate (and maybe then some), etc? “I’d love to stay here, but because of reasons X, Y, Z I believe I should be paid $X amount and wouldn’t be able to stay for less” (or something like that). They match it–great! If not, then it might be time to move on. Or is it worth it to wait for another offer? Offer 2 isn’t the only other offer out there. There could be an even better one around the corner (though of course you know your market best).

          1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

            I should mention that we are a non-profit that went through major budget cuts this year so…getting those numbers to go up is extremely unlikely. While I agree that offer 2 isn’t the only offer out there I should mention that I’ve only been working in my niche sub discipline for 15 months. I’ve accomplished a crazy amount of stuff in that time frame but going from a manager level (which is where I’m at now) to a Director level seems like a bit of a stretch and something that at a bigger org I don’t think I’d be ready for. There are very very few Asst. Director positions in my area, especially ones that pay decently, which is why I applied for the one I did in the first place.

            Also feel like I should mention that I was told about the “offer” from my current organization and they’re moving forward with it regardless of what I end up doing. It goes into effect Nov 1. I feel really weird about this aspect. Like they’re so confident I’m going to stay they just gave me a promotion and moved on? It just feels…odd.

            1. Not a Real Giraffe*

              So just based on your responses, it sounds like you were hoping we’d be Team Offer 2 – which maybe means, take offer 2! If your gut reaction to most of us saying we’d stay with our current org is to come up with reasons NOT to do that, then listen to your gut.

              1. Should I Stay or Should I Go?*

                Honestly, I was team current org, and was distressed because I thought that Texas might be the better opportunity despite my desire to stay put. After the events of today unfolded (and realizing that they would have been happy to underpay me for as long as possible until I left despite the fact that I go above and beyond and have been working at a director level for some time) I’m not feeling particularly generous to my current employer. But, I do realize that I’m emotional right now, so I’m holding off on making any decisions until I get a level head.

            2. Kathenus*

              If you’re willing to take option 2 for the financial security, then you could figure out what equivalent salary would be needed at your current job to be comparative with the higher cost of living. Then let them know you’d like to stay, but would need a salary of xx to be equivalent to your offer, based on cost of living and see what they say. If they say no, you have option 2 to go to. If they say yes, you can stay there and have the ability to begin saving and have more financial security.

              I do agree with Not a Real Giraffe’s comment about listening to your gut as well. Also in addition to your pros/cons list above, focus on if there are any significant negatives of either that could be considered dealbreakers – if so, this might make the decision for you. Good luck!

    6. Chriama*

      Neither seems like a great choice, but option 1 is probably better for now. Having only 350/month breathing room is not a tenable long term solution. It might be ok for the next year or 2 while you build up experience in your new position, but you obviously can’t stay there forever. And I’d be concerned that at this organization, more money would come with increasingly disproportionate increases in responsibility.

      But, honestly, what’s your 5 or 10 year plan here? Buying a house is not the be all and end all of adulting. For example, you could rent for now and buy when you retire to a lower cost of living area – but that only works if you’re saving aggressively for retirement so you can afford to take a couple hundred thousand out for a home purchase, or cash flow a mortgage on a fixed income.

    7. Anono-me*

      Personally, I say take option one and then after year look for option three.

      It sounds like the position in rural town is almost exactly what you want, but the location is very much not where you want to spend the rest of your life. So why move and buy a house there?

      You are understandably frustrated with your current organization, but after a year, you will have a more impressive resume and now you you have the breathing room to find a great position in a community that is a good fit for you. Don’t let your frustration take that away from you.

      Good luck.

  101. On the Move*

    I’m starting a new job next month which involves relocating overseas (to Switzerland). Anyone got any good tips for an international move? Anyone with experience working in Switzerland got any good advice?

    2. Thlayli*

      I remember an ex of mine worked in Switzerland and he found the culture hard to deal with. The culture where he is from is that it’s totally normal on a weekend to go out for a drink or a dance and going home at 11pm on a weekend would be considered an early night.
      The only places to go for a drink after 11pm in his town in Switzerland were all brothels (legal ones). You were allowed drink but you constantly had women trying to get you to go upstairs. He said it was really weird. He asked a colleague “where do you go for a drink” and the colleague replied angrily “I don’t need to drink!”
      Other than that it seemed like most other places in Europe. Good public transport, everyone speaks English.

  102. Visa for UK*

    Hey there – any Americans travel for work for medium length time (think 6 – 10 weeks) to the UK? My company seems to be getting conflicting information on whether or not our employee needs a work visa.

    He will be traveling to be part of a project. He is a US citizen and holds a US passport and will be working for 6 – 10 weeks from the sites in the UK. One immigration legal company we use says no: he is a business traveler. The other says yes: he is there for potentially 2 months and that is too long to be a business traveler.

    2. Red Reader*

      I’ve never been abroad in one single country for that long, but would it perhaps remove the worries if, halfway through his stay, he comes back for a long weekend and “reset the clock” on the overseas stay? There would be an added travel expense, but it might be a benefit for the traveler in terms of morale to get a chance to come home, see friends/family/pets, sleep in his own bed, swap out his luggage and whatnot.

  103. Anon16*

    Hi, I wanted some advice about my situation. I’ve posted here a few times about applying for jobs. My former manager referred me for a position at her organization and recommended me to the hiring manager. I’ve been to two interviews and had to write a proposal for the position. At this point, I’m waiting to hear back about whether or not I received the position.

    The first interview went really well and the interviewer (who’s the hiring manager) said I’d done a great job. After submitting the proposal, we scheduled a second interview. She mentioned at the beginning of the interview that she loved the proposal I’d written, that she thought I’d be a great addition to the team, and wanted to give myself and two other potential colleagues a chance to talk and get to know each other. Then she left. As far as I can tell, that interview went pretty as well as well. That was on Thursday afternoon. I wrote a thank you letter after the interview that evening and I still haven’t heard back from them. I know it’s early, but I’m starting to wonder if I should follow up? I know, or I’m pretty sure, this organization moves pretty quickly with hiring. I know the recommendation is to wait two weeks, but I’m a little worried I’ll somehow miss out (?) if I don’t.

    Also, I’m just hoping to have my expectations reconciled – am I wrong to start worrying? I was feeling pretty good on Thursday and I’m wondering if it was a mistake to get hopeful. Just wanted to check in – the wait is truly killing me!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Thursday as in yesterday? Or Thursday of last week? Either way my advice is the same: don’t follow up just yet.

      I think it’s easy for candidates to feel like the hiring manager will forget about them if they aren’t up in their inbox all the time, but I promise they won’t and that you won’t miss out by letting some time pass.

      1. Anon16*

        No, Thursday of last week! I agree it feels too early but was wondering if it was different since my manager worked there or since I’m pretty certain they move really quickly when hiring. I’ll hold off, though. And I think the waiting part is driving me a little bananas, but that seems a little normal!

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I don’t think that changes anything – if anything, I would be extra patient if I were in your shoes, for fear of annoying the hiring manager and having that get back to someone I know. Waiting is definitely the hardest part. I am currently waiting for my background check to be finalized so I can receive my written offer, and I can’t stop refreshing my inbox :)

    2. fposte*

      Firstly, you will not miss out on an offer just because you don’t ask them if they’ve decided yet. Did they give you a time frame for their next notification or are you just assuming based on your knowledge of the company?

      Presuming you’re saying last Thursday, the 12th, it’s definitely too early to ask them; they may not even be finished interviewing. You can check in with them about their timetable either a week from today or a week after they previously indicated was their likely date on the timetable, but I really wouldn’t recommend earlier.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Waaaayyyyy too early to check in. Make a note on your calendar to check in 10 days from now and then put it out of your mind and pretend you didn’t get it. Otherwise you’re just going to agonize.

  104. Beancounter Eric*

    Annual review/Goal Setting season here, and this company is the first I’ve worked with which requires employees to set goals for the next year. It’s the second year I’ve been ordered to prepare a list of four or five goals, and submit to our manager who reviews and either approves or “recommends” changes.

    How common is this?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’ve had to do this at nearly every job I’ve ever held. Some managers were more on top of it than others, some managers really did use it as a benchmark for the next year’s review, and some managers made you complete it just so that HR would stop sending them reminders :)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Super common. And good practice. At a minimum, if done right it’s a way of making sure that you and your boss are aligned on where your energy will (and won’t) go in the next year, and how your success will be measured/assessed. And ideally, it’s also a way to push you to achieve more than you otherwise might.

    3. Marmite*

      I’ve had to do this at every professional level job I’ve had. Usually there are some non-negotiable goals that I’m asked to agree to and then the opportunity to come up with three or four of my own.

      1. Beancounter Eric*

        Over 25 years professional experience, and this is the first company with a formal goal-setting “process”.

        It strikes me that asking an employee to set goals prior to discussion with management is putting the cart before the horse – I would expect management to itemize what they want from the employee – tell me what you want from me and we can go from there.

        1. DDJ*

          There are different schools of thought on that. Some (like Ken Blanchard, for example) say that it’s the leader who should really be setting the goals and working with the employee to fine-tune. In my organization, we have “cascading goals,” so we know what our boss and our boss’s boss (etc) have as goals, and we’re tasked with developing our own goals that support the direction of the department. Although we’re going through a full company restructure right now, so who knows what things will look like come goal-setting time in the new year?

          But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask employees to consider what they want to pursue as goals for the upcoming year, as far as having a place to start the discussion.

        2. Gaia*

          The thing is, I can’t tell my employees what they want to achieve in their career over the next year. There are goals … and then there are objectives. I set objectives (things I need my staff to achieve: metrics of productivity, key deliverable, etc), they set goals (with my input or approval to ensure they are relevant).

    4. AudreyParker*

      I have had to do this multiple times, thought it was pretty standard. Though personally I hate it, because in my position the job requirements would change enough throughout the year that there would either be zero time to put into achieving the goals or they would be forgotten about in favor of urgent needs. I’ve also never seen anything actually happen if any goals were achieved (or not) – it always seemed to be a technicality and kind of a waste of time. I’d like to think this varies by company & position, though, so YMMV.

      If you’ve been working there for a period of time, you probably have an idea of things you’d like to improve on or spend more time doing, or a direction you’d like to grow in, what the dept/company priorities are – I think that’s the idea of having them reviewed, they want to get your insight vs imposing something possibly irrelevant, but will ultimately not approve goals that don’t make sense from a business standpoint. In my experience, it’s been more of a conversation once I’ve thrown some ideas out there, so it’s not like yours is the *only* input.

    5. Thlayli*

      My old company brought it in. It was supposed to be a way of documenting why someone deserved a raise. In addition to the annual review (which took about a day to fill in properly before the meeting even happened) there was an application for promotion (which took about 2 weeks to fill in and get to the standard i wanted it to be). There was a lot of pushback in my department and one manager even told his reports not to fill it in. Prior to this we had a one hour meeting with our manager every year and got told if we were getting a raise and how much.
      I was pretty much the only person in my department who put the time and effort in to get it done. I prioritised it over other work and Put the time into my time sheet accurately – I was totally up front about it with my boss. I thought it was a shocking waste of time but if that’s the way the company wants it done and that’s what they are going to reward that’s their choice.
      I was the only one in the department to get a promotion that year.

  105. Nothemomma*

    After I told my manager a few weeks ago I was ready to toss my badge and laptop at the nearest coworker and say F it, me and the one coworker in my area finally got our new desks!!! We are an island surrounded by empty cubes, its quiet, more conducive to actual work, and so great to be away from the drama of the support team. After we moved desks, we had several people stop and say they were glad we got away from that nonsense. Now one of the support team who works mostly from home because of Reasons. Wants a desk near us. Nope; we are enjoying the quiet!!!!

  106. Just Tea For Me, Thanks*

    I gave notice at my afwul job last week and will start my new job on Monday!
    I am so excited! I felt incredibly useless at awful job, and my new job seems a great challenge, not to mention a slight increase in pay. It has taken some time, but I’m so happy to be moving on!

  107. Dawn*

    So my husband is military and we got stationed in Washington from Arizona, big change. I decided to just work at the Base Exchange for a while, since I didn’t really have the “lay of the land”. That got old fast, and I went to school for 2 years. I finished my classes, and we got orders to move, so instead of working I’m a housewife until we go. How do I explain to employers that it just made sense for me to not work for 8ish months at a job I knew I’d be leaving, instead of trying to manage a cross-country move AND work? I’m going to go through the spouse relocation assistance program, but if it’s an employer not military friendly, will this sound bad?

    1. KR (military spouse)*

      I think you could say that you were in a position to take some time off of work. If you have a hobby, you could say “I took some time away from work to focus on competitive llama scuplting” or you could even just say your family was going through a transition and you were in a position where you could afford to not work. Or maybe that you didn’t know the area well so you didn’t immediately get a job. Or you could be straight and say you thought you were only going to be there for a few months so you didn’t want to get into a long term position. It signals to the interviewer that you’re not there to waste their time. I don’t think 8 months before going to school is egregious.

    2. Nanc*

      I think it would be fine to say you were finishing up with school and had started to job hunt. Eight months isn’t that long for a job hunt, especially if you were looking in a new industry and since your spouse was working you weren’t under pressure to take any old job.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    3. Dawn*

      Thanks. I’m just getting stressed about how choppy my resume is getting. I had consistent, solid employment before I got married, and now I’m entering my mid 30’s, and my resume looks like I can’t hold a job. I know the fact that he’s military gives me some leeway, but it’s also giving me anxiety about employment prospects. We’re fortunate that I really don’t need to work, but I can’t be a housewife forever.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        Could you do a bit f volunteering or temping in your new field in the months before you move? It might also be worth applying (once you move) to military charities/suppliers/organisations near bases that will understand you’ve moved around and not be phased by it.

      2. Gaia*

        I can only speak for myself but if you explained to me you didn’t start a job because you had military orders to move I would understand. But, I come from an area with a large military presence.

    4. Working Rachel*

      Maybe I’m being too optimistic (and I was an Army brat myself, so all of this seems super normal to me) but I think a reasonable employer will understand the military spouse thing. There is no way to have a non-choppy resume as a military spouse, and something like not working for 8 months because you know you’re going to be getting orders soon also totally makes sense.

      My mom managed to work in her field for most of the 20 years they spent in the military, once in a country where there were literally only 8 jobs in her specialty. She was pretty lucky, but there are ways to make it work!

  108. katamia*

    Before I moved but after I left my last job, one of my old bosses wrote me a really nice email wishing me luck and all that. It’s been over a month, but I haven’t responded, mainly because I’ve just been too busy and exhausted. When I do respond (hopefully sometime this weekend), is it okay to ask him to be a reference in my response, or does he need to write back to me again/does there need to be some longer conversation before I ask?

    1. fposte*

      It’s fine to ask him to be a reference in response. Hope all is going a little smoother for you in the UK now!

    2. Simone R*

      Fine to do both in one email! I might do it as a new email specifically asking him to be a reference and include a thank you for his email/life update in it.

  109. Unhappy Job Seeker*

    May I have advice on explaining why I want to leave public accounting? I don’t have to travel or anything like that but want to work for a business where it’s the same books for the same company daily.

    And not to sound too weird but I dislike the client service aspect of it. I have several that no matter what you do it’s never enough.

    I’m struggling with answering the question “why do you want to leave your job”. I’ve done this 8 years and realize it’s a poor fit for me.

    2. OtterB*

      “I’d like the chance to develop deeper knowledge and experience of the business of one company instead of working for multiple clients.”

      Or, “I want to have a better connection and feel like I’m contributing to the success of a business rather than just providing a service for a fee.”

  110. Not really a Waitress*

    I left my toxic job almost a month ago without a job lined up, It was killing me. I don’t regret leaving. At least one former coworker calls me each week so they can vent about the crazy. I was in a position where I could be unemployed for a short stretch

    I went to the 4th round of interviews for two uniquely different but great positions.

    I didn’t get either position. I found out last Friday.
    Now I have nothing on the line, and I am frustrated. Currently I am reworking my resume. My question is for those of you who have experienced long stretches of unemployment, how do you stay motivated?

    1. Colette*

      1. Come up with a routine. For example, I won’t watch TV until I check the job boards.
      2. Come up with goals. For example, I will reach out to 3 contacts a week.
      3. Find meaning in something other than work and/or getting a job. Volunteer, work on a hobby, whatever – just do something that gives you a sense of accomplishment.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      Can you take free or low cost classes? Our library offers free online classes in many topics. Excel, word, nutrition, computer networking basics, communications and writing are offered. The only thing you need is a library card.

      You can build new skills or just enjoy a fun class. It takes your mind off searching. Plus agreeing on volunteering. You’d be surprised how many people have landed new jobs through volunteering contacts.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I find that I get a bit lazy myself. I make a point of checking my jobsearch websites first, before looking at the fun ones, like AAM, and then making a point of filling out applications before moving on to doing fun things.

      Sometimes I miss an episode of a favorite TV show and, well, nothing all that terrible happens.

  111. Misha*

    If you were interviewing for a job and the interviewer ended the conversation by saying “I think we will wrap this search up very quickly,” would you take that as a good sign? Or is it a way of saying “don’t call us, we’ll call you – and don’t hold your breath”?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s not really a sign of anything, other than that they hope to move quickly (which may or may not happen). It’s not likely a commentary on your candidacy.

  112. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I joked around about this on Twitter this morning, but now I’m thinking that maybe I’ll do it — I had joked that I need to start a feature called “letters I have no answer to,” where I post letters that stump me. (This was inspired by someone asking how to ask her boss to stop audibly farting all the time.) Would y’all be interested in that? Or would you rather not have it bump questions that have actual answers accompanying them?

      1. zora*

        omg i kind of love that!! Maybe not super frequently, like one time per month, or something, so that it doesn’t bump a ton of regular posts?

    5. TCO*

      Oh, I would LOVE to see those. (And maybe the LWs with these really hard issues would actually get some help from commenters!)

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Definitely interested! Maybe you can include a couple in the same post, like the short answers and updates.

    7. BookCocoon*

      I feel like you’ve done something similar before, when you post the letter and then just say, “Readers, what do you think?” In those cases it’s maybe not so much that it stumps you as that it’s about a specific industry or job type and the letter writer needs advice from that field. But there’s definitely a precedent for something like this, so I wouldn’t mind if it’s thrown in occasionally.

      There’s always the possibility, though, that commenters will give a bunch of bad advice and then if you try to say, “That’s not a good idea,” they’ll respond with “Well, you didn’t have any answers, and I do.” So I would keep that possibility in mind!

    9. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I prefer to hear your answers (and I’m a stick in the mud :) — I vastly prefer the wonky management questions to the outrageous or ridiculous questions).

      But — why not just do it occasionally, when you have a backlog of interesting “I’m stumped” questions? Or when you need some filler to lighten your load for the week?

    11. Snickerdoodle*

      I’d love to see something like this! Maybe a monthly post where you group a bunch of them together?

    12. Drew*

      Every time he does it, pull out a can of air freshener and spray it liberally around his office – the more floral or fruity the scent, the better. Lots of “Oh, God, Fergus, hie thyself to the proctologist!”

      Alternative approach (that I wouldn’t be able to pull off): Total “I am not amused” expression. Flat affect. “Fergus, stop that. It’s gross.” Hold his gaze longer than normal, enough to convey that you are not kidding around. If he keeps doing it, leave his office: “I’m sorry, Fergus, but I can’t meet with you when you keep doing that. Why don’t we wrap this up over Slack or email?”

      To the larger question: yes, please!

    14. Life's a Mystery*

      When I was a little kid, I remember that right before our kindergarten graduation a little boy in my class asked the teacher, “Hey, did you hear the one about the man who couldn’t hear himself fart?” Our teacher replied, “We don’t talk like that.”

      I never saw that boy again and I never found out the punch line.

      1. nonegiven*

        Doctor: “What seems to be the problem?”

        Martin: “Doc, I’ve got the farts. I mean, I fart all the time.”

        The Doctor, nodding: “Hmmm…”

        Martin: “My farts don’t stink and you can’t hear them, its just that I fart all the time. Look, we’ve been sitting here for 5 minutes and I’ve farted six times. You didn’t hear them and you don’t smell them, do you?”

        The Doctor: “Hmmm…”

        The Doctor picked up his pad and wrote out a prescription.

        Martin was thrilled: “Great doc. This prescription, will it really clear up my farts?”

        “No,” sighed the Doctor, “this prescription is to clear your sinuses. Next week I want you back here for a hearing test.”

        fart-fart.com/funny-fart-jokes/

  113. Veruca*

    My husband and I were hoping you’d weigh in on a question that’s prompted much discussion in our house lately.

    My husband’s first and middle name are the same as the first and last names of a well known Confederate general. For the sake of argument, let’s say his given name is Stonewall Jackson Flanders. He works in a field where he is required to have licenses displayed bearing his full name and his full name appears on items he has worked on. So while he would always introduce himself as Stonewall Flanders, it’s an industry where the full name is used reasonably often.

    For what it’s worth, his first and middle names are the first names of his two grandfathers (Grandpa Stonewall and Grandpa Jackson). His name was NEVER intended to honor anyone other than those two grandfathers.

    He’s aware that his full name is hurtful to many people. He’s also concerned that people could make assumptions about him based on his name. Any ideas on how to navigate this situation?

    1. fposte*

      Wow, this is a fascinating one, so long as you’re not the person it’s applying to.

      I would move the displayed licenses to the least visible spot allowed, have a big visible nameplate that doesn’t give the full name, and display whatever I could that genuinely represented me and my activities to signal that the name doesn’t signify a belief system, such as family and friend pictures, signs about relevant workplace groups and allyships, etc. Not only does that help contradict the message, it buries it in noise. If he’s an austere office guy, I would advise him to let that go–it’s just too much wasted opportunity.

      1. Veruca*

        This is a good idea. He’s truly a wonderful guy, but I wonder how well his office represents that. He’s in a field not known for its general outgoing nature. I’m going to think about how he could add to his decor and be within the norms for the industry but still demonstrate who he is as a person.

      1. zora*

        He could even legally change his middle name to just the initial. Combine this suggestion and Victoria’s below.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t know if I would suggest this – legally changing your name is an enormous pain in the ass and can cost quite a bit of money depending on how many things you have to update.

          1. paul*

            Yeah, I was kind of surprised by what a PITA it was for my wife when she decided to change her last name to mine.

            Also; we’re not talking about how he introduces himself. We’re talking about a license that has to display on his wall that’s required to have his name. Is this like where my doctor has a plaque up with her degree and license and probably no one ever looks at it? You might be borrowing a lot of trouble that you don’t need to here.

            1. Havarti*

              Yeah, it is a PITA so it should only be a last resort sort of thing if it’s really bothering him badly. But based on Veruca’s update below, it may not be that dire.

          2. Red Reader*

            Having done it six times (including a name change through the court system with no status change associated), it’s not necessarily that bad, depends entirely on your jurisdiction. In all six, the only money I’ve had to spend on name changing (not counting, you know, getting new address labels or whatnot) has been $75 for my first-name change and then the fees for two passport changes. (In fact, part of the impetus for my first-name change was that my then in-laws bought me an international plane ticket under my nickname because they didn’t realize it wasn’t my legal name, and it was cheaper to change my name than the plane ticket.)

            But I’ve never had a credit card company, bank, other financial institution, library, insurance company or anyone except the passport office tell me I had to pay money to change my name on their documentation.

            1. JamieS*

              You literally changed your name over a plane ticket? That has got to be one of the best things I’ve read here.

              2. Red Reader*

                Well, like I said I went by the nickname so consistently that my in-laws didn’t know it wasn’t already my legal name :) and I’d been talking about changing it for a while and putting it off because people kept telling me how hard name changes were. I found out they’d gotten the tickets wrong and went “… well, lemme do some research…” and yeah, in the jurisdiction I lived in, the name change cost $75 and took less than 24 hours. The ticket change fee was something like $200. So I decided clearly the universe was suggesting that I stop putting it off. :)

    3. Havarti*

      This is awkward no matter what. People make assumptions about others all the time and that’s not something we can control. Maybe just not say anything unless someone asks? Some people might not even make the connection so there’s no sense putting the idea in their heads if it’s not there to begin with. I feel that if he says “Totally not named for a confederate dude” every time he gets introduced, it doesn’t look good either. The quote “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” comes to mind. Would he consider changing his middle name maybe? Did Grandpa Jackson have a middle name or something that your husband could still use to honor him?

      1. Veruca*

        So.. the connection is pretty much unmissable. Obviously I used Stonewall Jackson as a fill-in, but his actual name is the one that you’d answer with first if I asked you to name a confederate general.

        I’m not sure how he’d feel about changing it. Also not sure about how the licensing would change if his name changed. But those are interesting thoughts!

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          In that case, the middle initial (“E”) is key. If it’s missing, I think the connection isn’t that powerful. To use a totally different example: Samuel Jackson doesn’t have the same effect as Samuel L. Jackson, right?

        2. fposte*

          If it’s genuinely the first one, I don’t think that’s as much of a problem as Stonewall Jackson, because I’d think first of to Robert E. Lee and 1) Lee is a common middle name 2) the E. is pretty integral and 3) there are a lot of existing Robert Lees. I still might do a bit of message control, but I think that would be likelier to make people think “I wonder if…” rather than “OMG.” Stonewall Jackson is probably the strongest example of the latter, Confederacy-wise; a Jefferson Davis would be right up there too (I know, not a general, but still), but I think a Robert Lee is much murkier.

          1. Havarti*

            Yeah, if his name is like Robert Lee Smith, that’s pretty innocent. Lots of Roberts and Lees in the world.

            1. The OG Anonsie*

              Weirdly, despite being the first person you’d think of, because it’s a much more common combination of names it stands out way less than Stonewall Jackson Flanders would.

              1. Havarti*

                Interestingly enough, Stonewall Jackson’s real name was Thomas Jonathan Jackson. You could probably name your kid that and no one would make the connection unless they’re a history buff.

                1. fposte*

                  Though that’s why really being “Stonewall Jackson Smith” would be so egregious–it reads like a desire to unambiguously foreground the connection.

            2. Paul*

              I think there’s at least one Bobby Lee in both my family and my wife’s (and they’re not southern!). I have no idea if either was named after the general or if they came from other family names.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I don’t think the name “Robert Lee [random last name]” would even register to me as connected to the general. Maybe if it were my dentist and I was staring at his diploma for like an hour while getting a filling, it would float across my brain at some point. I feel like this is not necessarily a problem, unless we are mis-supposing what his name actually is. I wouldn’t worry!

          3. nonegiven*

            I swear half the people I know IRL have a middle name of either Lee or Lynn, if not that actual spelling.

        3. JamieS*

          Robert E. Lee? Honestly if his name is Robert Lee I wouldn’t worry too much about it unless people have actually indicated discomfort. Those two names are so common as first and middle names I wouldn’t even associate it with THE Robert E Lee. Well not unless someone named that started reassuring me he isn’t a member/supporter of the Confederacy.

        4. Gaia*

          If people are making that connection, that is on them unless his name is literally Robert E Lee [Last Name]. Robert and Lee are such unbelievably common names in the US that no one should really think there is a connection unless he has a framed picture of the general and the battle flag next to his name. And that would be a much bigger issue, obviously.

        5. Gaia*

          To be fair, if his name actually was Stonewall Jackson [Last Name] I would say he should change it. There is no getting around that. Even if it wasn’t intended, it would always be seen as honoring him and it would be incredibly hurtful to many. But this is really different in my mind because Robert and Lee are very common and Stonewall is very…not.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Honestly? I’d change my (middle) name. If I were unwilling to give up my middle name, I’d add another between “Stonewall” and “Jackson,” so I’d become “Stonewall Matthew Jackson Flanders” (which, assuming his first name isn’t actually as distinctive as “Stonewall,” might be enough).

      I am powerfully unsentimental about things like names (carrying on the family name, honoring someone with a name, etc.), so I know that most others may not be willing to take this kind of step. But, to me, it seems like a harmless change that prevents pain to others.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          For you. Not for me (not harming people is very important to me; the name that is on my legal documents is not at all important to me), and we don’t know about the person in question.

          1. fposte*

            I could see doing it if I were Stonewall Jackson Smith. I wouldn’t bother if it were Robert Lee Smith, and if that’s what we’re talking about, I’m wondering if there’s been any external indications that it could be a problem or if this is just Veruca and Mr. Veruca worrying about the potential of one. Which is a reasonable thing to consider, but at least in my neck of the woods I don’t think it would genuinely be a thing.

        2. Thlayli*

          I think most people would agree changing your name to avoid offending others is a bridge too far.

        3. Gaia*

          It really depends on what the name and nature of the offense is. I think if my parents had named me Stonewall Jackson [Last Name] I would change it. I know I’m not a reprehensible racist and anyone who knows me would know that. However, people who don’t know me could be very hurt by the honorific my parents would have decided on.

          But again, it really depends on the name and the nature of the offense.

    5. Princess Carolyn*

      Is it a combination of two very common names, like Joseph Johnston? Or are the names as distinctive as your example, Stonewall and Jackson? To me, that makes a difference. “This guy’s very common names sound similar to a Confederate general’s common names” seems a lot less troubling than “This guy’s name appears to honor a Confederate general,” which unfortunately is a thing some Southern and/or racist parents do.

      But I’m not part of the group that would be most hurt by something like this, so I’m interested in what others have to say here.

    6. Anono-me*

      I would suggest he adopt a nickname of some sort. For example Stone instead of Stonewall. Then his full name on the official reports would be Stonewall “Stone” Jackson Flanders. This breaks up the mental link. He may have to push a little bit to get his nickname added, but it’s usually easier to add a nickname then to take something away.

      fposte’s idea of curating his office Decor to reflect who he is, is very good.

    7. WellRed*

      Honestly, unless one of his names is Hitler, I don’t know how closely people look at licenses. I understand your concern, but I’d probably, if I noticed, wouldn’t associate your husband with, in this case, slavery or the confederacy. I might wonder if he has southern ancestors. I also like fpostes suggestions.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I always look at the dates, like on the doctor’s license, to see how green they are. I don’t pay much attention to the name unless it’s something very unusual. It would have to be really strange for me to notice, like Aerosmith Goneril Morgenstern or something.

    8. RJ*

      I’m a black man and it would never occur to me that he was a confederate general or had anything to do with it because of his name. The civil war ended a century and a half ago, I can’t see how he could be associated with it in any way. If anyone is upset by it I would suggest they seek therapy to work out their issues. There is nothing wrong with his name. You husband needs to proudly display his license and forget about it.

      ESPN took a lot of heat for removing an Asian man whose name is Robert Lee from working a sporting event in Virginia because they didn’t want to offend anyone with the association. It had the opposite effect and they did not come out looking very good. Anyone who doesn’t have issues realizes a persons name is not something to be offended over.

    9. Student*

      All reasonable adults will recognize that his name is almost certainly something his parents chose for him when he was a baby. They will know that, even were he named Hitler Mao Stalin, that’s his parents.

      If someone who’s not a reasonable adult brings it up, just tell the person asking what you’ve told us, “Gramps 1 was named Hitler Stalin, Gramps 2 was named Mao Jones, and my parents named me to honor those grandparents. At the time, they didn’t really think through how much flak I’d get for this name in grade school. But please, I go by Harry S. professionally.” Just defuse the underlying issue with a short , kind elevator story and a bit of a laugh, and move on to business.

      If he finds his own name shameful or embarrassing or professionally limiting on a personal level, that’s a pretty good argument for changing it – in part or in whole. That’s why we have the ability to change our names. That’s a very personal decision, though.

      1. Forrest*

        Ha! That reminds me of Obama’s joke about his name: “I was named by two people who didn’t think I’d be president.”

    10. Nacho*

      I doubt anyone will seriously care as long as he makes sure not to display any confederate paraphernalia. A lot of people won’t even make the connection.

    11. Forrest*

      Civil War generals all had very white bread and mostly biblical names. This is probably way more common than you think and I think you two making way too much of an issue out of it.

  114. Natasha*

    I posted here several weeks ago about wondering if I should go back to a job after getting fired from the job I’d left for. I ended up agreeing to go back, mostly because unemployment sucks and I was kind of emotionally destroyed from the whole experience and wanted familiarity. I’ve been back two weeks and it’s been absolutely great. No regrets so far. I didn’t realize how much I missed everyone until I got back and well. Yeah.

    It’s weird how functional a place you thought was crap looks after you spend some time somewhere completely toxic. And feeling competent for once is awesome. So I’m pretty happy overall.

  115. zora*

    How does your company organize your participation in conferences/trade shows, etc?

    I have a lot of experience in actually organizing large events, but this is slightly different. Our company sends a ton of people to one particular big industry conference. And currently, we coordinate all the different schedules, meetings, hotel info, etc in huge Word docs. Which is what they have been doing for years.

    They are extremely time consuming to put together (It’s taken most of my time for the last 2 weeks) and in my opinion they are only marginally useful. The docs are so long and don’t really show time very well, as in, a meeting from 9-9:30 and a session that goes from 9-11:30 are listed right next to each other in a list, and you don’t get a good sense for what overlaps, etc. And so everyone ALSO puts all of their obligations into their Outlook calendars… which means that the same info for one meeting is being typed in 4-5 different places by different people. This seems so inefficient to me, and I feel like there has to be a better way!!

    Does any one out there have a good software reco or template or something that is a better way of tracking a large team’s participation in someone else’s event? Thanks all!!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      We have to do something similar for my company’s participation in a major int’l conference. We send upwards of 20 people to the event and one person has a master spreadsheet of everyone’s scheduled meetings, sessions, receptions, etc.

      Essentially, the left side of the spreadsheet has separate columns for the date of the event, the time of the event, the location of the event, and the name of the event. (Each row is its own event/meeting.) The right side of the spreadsheet is a column for each individual person attending the conference. If a person is going to a particular event, we put an X in the cell that aligns with the person’s column and the event’s row. It helps us easily see if multiple people are going to the same event, and by turning on Excel filters, we can easily see just one person’s schedule.

      It does require that one single person own the spreadsheet and collect data from our attendees and their assistants on their schedule, but this system has worked for us for many, many years.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, an Excel sounds SO much better than just a list in Word. But still having one person have to do all the entry isn’t super efficient, and we’re all doing a lot of duplicative work.. I really wish I could come up with something better….

        Thank you!

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Some options to incorporate the above but allow multiple people to input data:

          -Are you allowed to use Google docs? If so, I’d use their Sheets platform that can help you with version control.
          -Or even if you have one version of the Excel file that is saved on a shared drive that only one person can access at a time, and everything is diligent about version control.

          1. zora*

            We do use the shared drive for our current Word system, but it’s still resulting in a lot of duplication. People schedule something, type it into a schedule for their client, then type it into their own calendar, then send it to me to type into the master schedule. It just seems like there has to be a better way in these days of technology!

            But thank you for chiming in!

            1. Gaia*

              Could it be added to the master outlook calendar and have everyone attending be added to the “meeting” so it also ends up in their calendar but only requires one entry? From there, the Outlook calendar could be printed or copied into an Excel document.

              1. zora*

                Hmm, using Outlook might be much more efficient, if I can think of the right way to organize it… Thanks for this idea!

  116. Amber Rose*

    Mini rant, which is separate from my question:

    We have a lot of new employees. We jumped from 23 people to 30 pretty fast.
    Two of them, who sit near me, are singers.

    By which I mean, they sing, to themselves, audibly and badly, pretty much constantly.

    Whyyyyyyy.

    1. Havarti*

      Join in really loudly and when everyone stares at you, look around in confusion and say “I thought we were starting an office singing club. No?” Or just yell “Yo, Mike Jagger, keep it down over there, will ya?” if you’re feeling frisky. But seriously, someone needs to tell them to stop.

    2. Nanc*

      Yeah, this is a case where you can politely say you have to focus and they need to stop singing/snapping gum/pencil drumming/chair tap dancing or whatever noisy behavior is going on. You could even add that your job requires focus and a quiet atmosphere all the time and could they be conscious of noise. I’d say give them a couple of weeks of polite reminders and if that doesn’t work, go to your manager and ask to sit elsewhere and explain why and what you’ve done to try to solve the problem.
      `
      Singing on the job. . . fine if you work in dinner theater, for a singing telegram service or need professional advice from Lorne and the Caritas crowd.

      1. Amber Rose*

        That would be too hypocritical, since this is a seriously noisy office all the time. It’s just that the sound of people singing softly and badly kind of grates on me a bit, like the sound of chewing or snoring. I do have the option to just drown them out with my headphones for the most part. It’s more of a minor quibble than an actual Thing.

        1. Nanc*

          Ah–perpetually noisy office does change the dynamic! I fully support your quibble that soft, bad singing is annoying!

        2. WellRed*

          I work next to a singer, sometimes it’s under breath, but i can still hear it (like a mosquito). Ask them not to sing. Repeat as necessary.

        3. Kismet*

          Hah, that reminds me of a rule I had to lay down with a former roommate. If he was going to play his music, I told him, it had to be pretty audible in my room or he had to use earphones, because the just-barely-audible music was waaaaay more distracting and aggravating for me than actually hearing the songs. I don’t know what it is, but something about quiet human voices just catches my attention in the way that normal or even loud ones don’t.

  117. Crylo Ren*

    I’m new to my current company but not new to the corporate office world. I’m on a team that’s pretty evenly split between men & women and tends toward the younger side (26-35) with the exception of 2 coworkers in their 50s.

    Three out of the four men on my team have small children so they tend to leave right at 5, but I and the other 4 women on our team tend to stay longer – I’m talking staying until 5:30 or 5:45 when we came in at 9 and took a full hour lunch break. None of us have small children at home either, so to me it doesn’t seem all that excessive to stay a little late.

    After I joined the team one of my (older, female) coworkers has started making pointed comments if I or my other female coworkers who is around my age is still there. She’ll start saying things like “well, *this* is a surprise” while giving significant glances toward my male coworkers’ empty cubes; or she’ll start saying things like “Crylo, no one cares if you’re still here, it’s not going to make you look better if you stay longer, your work will still be here tomorrow”, etc. etc.

    I know she means well but it annoys me because her tone just seems so…patronizing, I guess? I honestly prefer to stay a little later if it means that I can get my workload in a good state for the next day. It also bothers me that my coworker only makes these comments to me and the other young female coworker; she doesn’t make these comments when our other female coworker (40s) is around.

    I don’t know if the coworker who makes these comments realizes that I’m older than I look and this isn’t my first rodeo. I know how to manage my schedule appropriately and certainly my actual supervisor has never expressed any concern about the fact that I frequently stay a few minutes later than others. And I don’t really want to join in on complaining about the men on my team leaving early; it’s not on me to make judgment calls about whether they have enough work to do or to police their schedules. What can I say to shut this down appropriately while preserving our good working relationship?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think the issue is that she thinks you’re younger, whether she does or not; the issue is that she’s making repeated comments about people’s work habits. “Thanks, but I’m good,” said pleasantly is a fine response and it’s eminently repeatable. If you want to address it more directly, you can: “Jane, you’ve said things like this a few times lately–is there something concerning you? Manager and I have agreed on my schedule and we’re both fine with it.”

      1. Crylo Ren*

        I neglected to mention this but she has made other comments that refer to my and my other coworker’s relative youth as a preamble to her comments about leaving “on time” (i.e. “you ladies are young and haven’t been here that long, so I feel like I should drop some advice”). So that’s why I bring up the youth question. But I think you’re probably right. The fact that she’s commenting on others’ work habits and encouraging us to join in is the bigger issue.

        1. fposte*

          I’m not saying it doesn’t factor into her head; I’m saying that engaging with that is taking you down the wrong road, because she shouldn’t be saying it to people even if they *are* young.

        2. Drew*

          “Weird, I always thought it was older people [implied: like you] who had the early bedtimes.”

          You should definitely NOT say that, but I would have a hard time keeping it from crossing my mind.

    2. Thlayli*

      It sounds like she means this as helpful advice. You could try talking to her directly and next time she does it say something like “I feel like you are trying to give me advice on how long I need to stay. I appreciate you trying to help, but I’ve been working for x years and this is the way I prefer to work. Would you mind not commenting on my hours in future?”

  118. Ramona Flowers*

    I have a new coworker who is very nice and keen but gets a LOT of texts. That’s not my problem as it’s not affecting their work – learned that one from AAM – but a) they have the alert sound on and b) they just had an informal training meeting with me and were receiving and replying texts, with accompanying noise, the entire time. It was very annoying. But they engaged so well otherwise – took lots of notes etc – that I’m wondering whether to say anything. I just acted like it wasn’t happening. It’s just sort of not the culture here really.

      1. zora*

        Even: “Hey, it’s expected here that we keep our phones on silent when we are in the office. And we don’t respond to texts during meetings or while working unless it’s a work related reason. That’s something to save for your breaks.”

        If you are the one training them even informally, I think that gives you an opening to clue them in about how something is “done” at your office. It’s part of orienting them to the office. I heard little tidbits like that from people other than my supervisor when I started here, and I didn’t take it as an overstep.

    2. Temperance*

      I do think that it’s rude to be texting during a training session. I would have told them to put their phone away.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Your coworker was rude, but I suppose you could have potentially asked if it was something they needed to step away for a few and deal with.

      [I had a coworker who sits outside my office leave their ringer on this week (twice!) and it was set to Mackelmore Thrift Shop. That was annoying, but I figured more embarrassing for him.]

    4. Argh!*

      Your ability to concentrate and to attend to what happens in a meeting is just as important as Texter’s. You can simply say, “this is distracting to me and I really want to focus on my work / what you have to say. Can you please turn that off while we’re having our teapot design meeting?”

  119. BigSigh*

    Alright, tough question.

    I work in a very tiny office with several people I don’t like and several people I do. We all report to different people not based in the same office.

    How do I …ugh, so hard to phrase. If I don’t like a coworker–and yes, I have very good reasons, thank you–how do I shut down conversations? I have tried staying polite, saying hi when we pass each other, simply vacating an area if they come over and start trying to talk to me, not having personal discussions, etc.

    But two of them keep pushing! Apparently one went to our office manager and complained that I didn’t like him. The other one now make little comments like, “I feel like you don’t like me or something,” when I’m talking to someone else and decide to wind down the convo and leave versus staying when he walks over. Can I be short, on occasion? Yes, though I try to keep a professional tone. But get the hint and give me some space. Our work doesn’t overlap, so there’s no work-related need to talk to me.

    I get that it can feel cliquey. I clearly do talk to others in the office. But I don’t have to like everyone I meet. So how do I tell someone I’m just never going to like them without being horrible and mean? I’m not sure there is a way, but any suggestion would be helpful.

    1. Temperance*

      The thing is, work and social lives are different, and the rules are different. You should at least be polite and not ignore people that you dislike. Even if he has “no work-related need to talk”.

      You cannot tell a coworker that you’re never going to like him.

    2. fposte*

      As you realize, you can’t. I also think you need to cover your tracks better; walking away from a friendly chat every time Bob turns up is pretty blatant, and it’s going to have a bad office effect, especially if you are self-reportedly “short” to people.

      You don’t have to like everyone you meet, and you don’t have to talk exactly the same to everybody in the office. But you can’t regularly freeze out some people in an office based on your dislike of them without paying a price. I would recommend that you avoid regularly making exits based on their entry into a conversation, make sure you’re not short with them, practice kindness to them, and practice cheerfully blaming work for your need to keep moving. “Hi, Jane, hope you had a nice weekend! Those reports are kicking my butt so I gotta get back to the desk.”

    3. Brandy*

      BigSigh – I feel for you. He shouldn’t be going to the boss complaining that you don’t like him. This isn’t school. The boss shouldn’t manage everyone being besties. Only that we can get along to function.

      1. Murphy*

        Some people are just super sensitive. In my old job people in a different department literally went to my boss and complained that “Murphy isn’t as sunshiney as she could be.” (I am admittedly not sunshiney at all.)

        1. BigSigh*

          That would make me verrrrrry angry. SMH. People go to work, for the most part, to be paid. Demanding that people spend all 40+ of those hours cheery and sunshiney as well is too much to ask.

          1. TL -*

            I mean, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that you spend all 40 hours in a reasonably consistent and not-grumpy mood. I don’t need all smiles and sunshine, but I do need consistently pleasant interactions.

            There’s a difference between “Oh you need to be happy and sunshine and smiles!” and “I want to talk to that person but sometimes they’re really snappy and curt and sometimes they’re nice and it’s a lot of work to even get up the energy to go talk to them.”

    4. CheeryO*

      You can’t; being personable with people you don’t like is part of working in an office. You don’t need to be besties with everyone, but if your coolness is targeted enough to be noticeable, you need to play the game a little better. Your coworkers might be taking it a little too personally, but wouldn’t you rather fake a smile and include them in your small talk now and then than have them complain about you to management?

      1. BigSigh*

        Well, no, actually. I don’t care if they know I don’t like them. Which is why I was considering any kind of language available to express that when they whine. Management doesn’t like them either, so there’s nothing that would impact me on the work level.

        I guess I’m trying to say that I do try to stay polite, but I am not going to force myself to talk to someone when I’m at BEC mode just because it would make me look oh so sweet and understanding. I’ve faked it for years and I’ve reached a point where I’m no longer going to funnel a ton of energy into being fake to spare the feelings of a couple people.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, then that’s too big a difference from my workplace and personal practice for me to advise. But if it’s so rough and tumble, why did the manager not tell the employee to STFU when she complained, and why did anybody think it was worth mentioning to you?

          1. BigSigh*

            The office manager, from my understanding, did say something like, “BigSigh needs space; not everyone here wants to be your bestie.” But this coworker is known for ignoring instruction and doing as he pleases, which is why I was finally considering using my words to be a bit firmer that I don’t want to be friends. The last time a group of women complained about him, he was told to stop following women into the kitchen and cornering them for an hour because most were too physically intimidated to excuse themselves.

            When office manager told me about the complaint, it was more a tone of, “Can you believe the obliviousness of this person?” than anything else.

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, that’s not a good reason to pass on a complaint, though; I don’t like that action. Manager needs to deal with Bob, not tell tales about Bob.

              Setting all that and the other issues aside, you seem to be asking one of the perennial AAM questions: “How do I make somebody be different than what they are?” And as you probably know, there isn’t a magic answer to that, and that’s why you haven’t found it.

            2. WellRed*

              Whoa, whoa whoa! This is a whole separate issue. Making female employees uncomfortable? Cornering them? WTF?

        2. Natalie*

          If you genuinely don’t care and management genuinely doesn’t care, why not just answer the question honestly when your colleague asks you if you don’t like them. You’re not getting what you want out of being passive aggressive, unless the main attraction is the plausible deniability that you’re being rude.

        3. CheeryO*

          I guess I don’t see how it takes a ton of energy to engage with someone for a couple minutes instead of walking away. It’s pretty easy to exchange a few pleasantries and then excuse yourself. You don’t have to create an elaborate fake persona.

          1. Kismet*

            I have to say, that depends a lot on why BigSigh dislikes them, though. There are plenty of people who will glom onto any kind of pleasantry and cling, or use it as an excuse to interact more – and there are plenty of people out there who are very taxing to deal with, even in small social-ritual doses.

            Not quite the same situation, but I had to flat out tell a customer that I did not, in fact, like him and to stop talking to me, because he would corner me at work and monologue at me about how sexy he found me. Fortunately, my boss backed me up and told me if he came in again to just head straight to the back room and she’d take over (very small business, so she was always right there) – but he was absolutely the kind of person where if I said as much as “hello,” he decided that was me playing along and meant I wanted his attention.

    5. Argh!*

      You don’t have to like everyone, but you should consider treating everyone the same. Or you could communicate with your friends via email or IM so the left-one ones won’t notice.

      1. BigSigh*

        The people I do like have started a private group chat, which does help me avoid some of the convos with people I’d rather not interact with. But I think it’s a bit silly to think I need to talk to everyone equally. I honestly can’t imagine everyone else, in every other office, talks to everyone else equally. I talk to the people I like more because our work overlaps and I like them. I don’t talk to these two people because our work doesn’t overlap and I don’t like them.

        I guess doing what I have been doing seems to be the most viable option? Be cordial and brief, ignore the whining that we’re not friends…

        1. Temperance*

          That’s really cliqueish. Seriously, no one is saying you must “talk to everyone equally”, but at the same time, you can’t be rude and just walk away from a colleague because you dislike their personality. That’s childish and unprofessional, IMO.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            +1.

            I cannot stand one of my colleagues. But we have to work together. So when she came back after an extended period of sickness I told her to let me know if she needed my help with anything or if there was anything I could do. Because we work together. It’s not about whether you like them.

        2. fposte*

          There’s a difference between “not talking to people equally” and “freezing people out,” though. You walk away from conversations when these people join and are demonstrably cold to them. You can stop that without having to talk to them the same amount as people you like. As you say, nobody likes everybody in their office equally, but most people manage to talk more to the people they like without visible antipathy to those they don’t.

          I think the visible antipathy is bad on a few fronts: one, it’s not achieving the effect you want of making them stop talking to you, and two, it’s like sloppy accounting–it may fly where you currently are but it’s bad to get into a habit of something that has a high potential of biting you in the butt elsewhere.

          1. BigSigh*

            While I’d hate to have bad habits for the future, I’ll be where I am for quite a few more years and I’m not going to start talking to them just to make sure I don’t fall back on freezing people out at some hypothetical future job. I do know that I’m perfectly capable of disliking people and holding full conversations with them; I do so regularly. It’s just these two that I’m choosing not to with.

            I absolutely agree that freezing them out isn’t working. But I can’t figure out what would work….

            1. Argh!*

              If you refuse to be collegial to some of the people you work with, counting on being there for several more years may be a miscalculation.

        3. Windchime*

          Yeah, I don’t talk to everyone in my office equally. There is a guy that is really not my favorite, and another guy who is weird and quiet but when either of them talks to me, I respond kindly and politely. Do I make it a point to go over and strike up a friendly conversation every day, like I do with others? No. But freezing people out and making your dislike of them obvious isn’t professional.

          If it’s a creep who follows women around and won’t stop and managers won’t do anything about it, then that’s a whole different problem.

    6. Anono-me*

      Could you please clarify why you don’t
      want to be work friends with these two people?

      Your initial question sounds as if you don’t want to be work friends because you don’t click with the other two. But something that you said in one of your secondary comments makes it sound like there is more to it.

      If you just don’t click with these people, I think you should make an effort to be friendly (friendly not friends). If there’s coldness between co-workers, it can be uncomfortable for other people in the office. You don’t need to invite them into your life at all, but you can share a few comments with them about the local sports team, or the new movie that just came out, or the great job that a coworker just did on a hard project.

      If you don’t like these people for more substantial reasons, my suggestion is to be blandly professional.

    7. Kismet*

      I’d say it depends a lot on why you don’t want to associate with them. If it’s just a personality clash, yeah, you need to suck it up and be professionally polite – freezing someone out at work for that is not useful.

      If it’s something more serious, I’d say a good option is to keep things strictly work-related. If they push social friendship, respond with something like a firm “I’d like to keep this relationship strictly professional.” If they try to come over and chat in the office, deflect them with your busy work schedule, even if you’re lying. (“Sorry, so much work to do, gotta run.”)

      If none of that works or there’s a really serious reason you want to avoid all contact, you need to be willing to both reply with “No, I don’t actually like you” and deal with any blowback you get for being unfriendly towards them. If that’s a price you’re willing to pay, fine. But I am not, admittedly, someone who believes one must always be polite to everyone – I do think it’s fine to freeze people out if they cross a serious line – so you might want to take this opinion with a pinch of salt.

      In my experience, there’s no bulletproof way to get people who are willing to whine about you not liking them or being social enough to them to accept you don’t like them and stop bothering you. If they were likely to stop bothering you, they would have by now. They clearly both know you don’t want to talk to them and are clearly trying to force you to do what they want, socially, and frankly that’s the point where they lose a lot of my sympathy. It sucks when people don’t like you, but the answer isn’t to go to said person’s boss and force the issue or try to use social pressure to get them to pretend to like you – the only time going to your boss over this would be legit, in my view, is if you were actually hampering their jobs or being extremely rude – and no, I don’t think just not talking to someone, no matter how pointedly, counts.

      So basically I disagree with everyone else on this.

      1. BigSigh*

        Thank you. I appreciate your comments, Kismet.

        In the long run, I don’t have to go on and on and defend myself about why I don’t want to be friendly with a couple creeps who get overly personal with their medical problems and mail me presents “anonymously,” or talk down to me and tell me I’m “not important enough.” When I said I had good reasons, I was disappointed that everyone here ignored that and instead acted like I was a rage-monster just being mean to a couple of people just for funsies.

        The point that I asked, and most people chose not to address, was that I have decided to be politely professional to a couple co-workers I don’t like, and excuse myself from personal conversations with them. When I got continued push back, I was looking for a polite but firm way of telling them that being friends wasn’t going to happen.

        I have decided to be a bit more blunt, though as kind as possible, thanks to the good advice I got from the few who were trying to be helpful.

  120. Please Help*

    I started my job 2 months ago. I sit next to “Fergus”. Fergus takes personal calls and likes to procrastinate and slack off. I thought I was the only one who noticed this, but my co-workers acknowledged that he does this. My boss was even joking about how he sleeps at work, so even he knows!
    My boss asked me to help Fergus with his work the other day- I was supposed to help him convert his report from one template to another. So I did. Meanwhile, Fergus is laughing, taking calls, etc. I stepped out to go to the bathroom and Fergus was talking to my co-worker about the work. My boss was asking where I was because *I* was the one that was supposed to be helping him. Another time my boss asked me why I didn’t attend a meeting where I was suppose to take notes for Fergus, but Fergus never told me about it!

    It was nearing the end of the day and I sent Fergus the report. I had to re-send it because one section had to be fixed and Fergus seemed irritated.

    I did my best to help him, but it is not my job to do this. I work in records and Ferugs is an Engineer! I don’t have an engineering background. I know it’s only converting documents/working with templates, but if Fergus can’t do his job, how does he still have a job?

    1. WellRed*

      If your job includes helping fergus convert docs, that doesn’t require you to be an engineer, correct? And, while it doesnt sound likr fergus is a good worker, the boss doesn’t seem to care. I suppose, next time you have to help him and he’s not paying attentio, you could say “this doesn’t seem like a good time for you right now. Should I come back later?”

    2. Thlayli*

      I think there’s a few different issues here. Firstly he’s slacking off a lot. That’s annoying but it doesn’t affect your work and it sounds like the boss is aware but is still happy to keep him so maybe he is getting all his work down quickly or is really good at other stuff. Either way that part of it is not your problem and not your business.
      Secondly you said you were asked to “help him with his work” but then also you said you were formatting a document. It sounds to me like you think he should have been able to format the document himself and that should have been part of his job. That may be a misunderstanding on your part. There are a lot of excellent engineers who find word formatting really difficult and will point blank refuse to do it. It’s very counter intuitive in a lot of ways because there are so many exceptions and it changes with every update and there’s just so many many ways it can go wrong and the only way to fix it it to keep plugging away at it no matter how frustrating it is. It’s entirely possible to be really bad at formatting word docs and still be a great engineer. At big engineering companies they often have staff whose sole job is taking reports written by engineers and making them look pretty. So it’s very possible that what you were asked to do is not Fergus’ job at all but is actually your job. You can certainly ask your boss for clarification on this, but be prepared for the answer that it is Fergus’ job to write the reports and your job to format them.
      Thirdly, and most importantly. Your boss complained that you weren’t working on the report when you had gone to the bathroom. That’s totally unacceptable and your boss was being a jerk. You’re allowed to go to the he bathroom. I wouldn’t necessarily do anything about it after one instance but if your boss comments on it again or has unreasonable expectations in other ways you should take it up with her.

      1. Thlayli*

        Sorry – i forgot about the time Fergus didn’t tell you about the meeting. That’s also unacceptable but I’m assuming you explained to your boss that you hadn’t been told about the meeting. If so your boss should have forgotten about it.
        So far it seems like Fergus has done just one thing wrong (forgetting to tell you about a meeting which is annoying but is also quite common) and your boss has done one thing wrong (asking where you were when you went to the bathroom) but I would wait to see if there is a pattern before doing anything about it yet.

  121. Stephern*

    Can someone tell me what (toxic) workplace PTSD looks like? I guess, what are some of the symptoms or other identifiers?

      1. paul*

        Second this.

        A *lot* of the symptoms of PTSD are also symptoms of other mental health issues (negative changes in thinking or mood, negative emotional or physical reactions to benign stimulus, etc). Sussing out exactly what’s going on can be time consuming and warrants a professional look. IIRC, PTSD is frequently diagnosed concurrently with other mental health issues, but that may simply be because the symptoms overlap so strongly at times.

    2. zora*

      – Anytime my boss wants to talk to me my heart starts racing, and my stomach clenches and I think I’m going to get yelled at or fired. (It’s usually she just wants to tell me about a new project she needs me to do.
      – My first instinct on any task is to not put too much energy into doing it well or going above and beyond because “it doesn’t matter, and I’m probably going to be told it’s wrong and to do it over anyway.”
      – I don’t bring in much personal stuff or get to attached to any social or cultural stuff, because I’m pretty sure I’m going to get fired.

      Stuff like that, and in general my expectations of the company and coworkers are way out of step from reality. When review time comes, I’m convinced it’s going to be awful, even though I’ve only had positive feedback from my work all year.

  122. Teapot Librarian*

    Oh, my Hoarder Employee. He gets my goat. Any advice on how to not let my goat be gotten? (He does things like copy my boss–his grand-boss–on emails implying I’ve done something wrong; and mainly just acts like he and I are equals when we aren’t. For example, he was late to a one-on-one this week, as he frequently is, and when I brought it to his attention, his response was “well sometimes I come and you’re still at your desk working,” as if I should just be waiting for him. I have never had a job where I expected my boss to be ready and waiting for me. The boss works until the employee arrives. Right?)

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re right that this is less about the substance than your goat and that not caring is your greatest weapon.

      Remind me again–this guy is unfireable why?

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        He isn’t completely unfireable, but it’s government so 1. a serious paper trail is needed, or 2. I need my boss’s support to do a reorganization in my office, and to justify the reorganization, I need more employees in my budget. (It’s quite a plan I’ve presented to my boss, because we DO need more employees, and then it doesn’t make sense for everyone in the office to report directly to me, but I didn’t do a fantastic job of selling my boss on the latter point when we last spoke about it, and she is reluctant to lose the institutional memory that HE is not documenting adequately.)

        1. fposte*

          And the paper trail is being built, right? He’s been getting strong indications about his performance deficit in his reviews? I bet there are tons of talented eager librarians that could do the job he’s doing better and be less of a PITA.

          Are the one on ones in your office or in a conference room?

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            In my office.
            And yes, I’m working on the paper trail, but some of the little things that all add up, you don’t realize they’re happening or are a problem until the 3rd or 4th or 5th time they happen, and then you’ve lost all those opportunities to document them. It’s annual review time, though, so some of this will have the poop documented out of it.

            1. fposte*

              If it’s in your office, then he’s got no excuse as far as I’m concerned. I’d be clear that being on time to these meetings is a performance metric and he’s currently performing below expectations on this.

        1. fposte*

          Create a mantra along the lines of “Oh, that Bob.” Make it musical, if you like. Then set up a rule that after you sing the “Oh, that Bob” song you have to turn your attention to something else. The goal is for that to be the sum of your responses and keep him to the wacky sitcom character he is, not somebody who stirs rage into your soul and makes you think about him for any longer than necessary.

        2. Kismet*

          This may or may not help, but when I’ve dealt with similar people (similar in that they were deliberately trying to aggravate me), I’d remind myself when I started getting angry that that was what they wanted. Literally naming the action and their goal, if only silently: “He is doing ___ because he knows it makes me angry. He is trying to make me show anger.” Being the ornery sort, that helped me ignore their attempts to get a rise out of me, because the last thing I wanted was to give them that satisfaction.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        I think fposte is right. This isn’t so much about him as it is about you learning to not let his behavior phase you while you gather the evidence needed to let him go.

        As Alison something says, “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.” Your employee isn’t going to change. Good luck. I am so sorry this is ongoing.

        1. WellRed*

          I’d argue the boss also kinda sucks. He could redirect the hoarder back to teapot library when he does the emails, at the very least.

    2. Argh!*

      Have you tried sending an email documenting the lateness & then copying all the people that he copies?

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Haha! No, I’m really trying to be the bigger person and not be passive-aggressive in my management :-)

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            It’s the passive-aggressive bit I’m trying to avoid :-)
            I’m working very hard on not being a doormat.

  123. Ern*

    After two really rough jobs in a row, im finally in a job where my boss trusts me, doesn’t micromanage and backs me up on my decisions. BUT I cannot shake the anxiety that my last two jobs gave me. In the first, I did struggle in the role but also had two supervisors who micromanaged like crazy and, as time passed, made me feel like a genuinely terrible person despite the fact that I was trying my hardest and never came in with an attitude, something that the HR manager spoke to directly when I met with her to sort out a performance plan. The second job was a sinking start up with people quitting and lay offs and management that overloaded us with workout and favored the clients over the employees (they literally never said no). So. I am overly anxious about being a strong performer in this job and it’s making me overthink and fear that any error could change how I’m perceived and my job security.

    1. zora*

      I’ve been there. Am still kind of there, I posted a little above in the “Workplace PTSD symptoms” thread.
      My best advice is to talk to a professional! I started going to a therapist finally, partly due to other things, but she has really helped me break down these things and start to separate the reality of my workplace from the negative stories in my head.

      Do you have an EAP at your new job? Even a couple of sessions with someone asking them specifically about techniques to deal with anxiety could give you the steps that would help you move forward.

      But also, time will help! The more I have experienced people NOT yelling at me about stupid stuff, the more confident I have gotten again.

  124. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I’m worrying that I’M the smelly food coworker this week! I have a bad cold and can really only taste spicy food, cinnamon, etc., mint, hot/coldness, and strong cheese right now.

    So I have been eating salad with feta cheese and Hot Tamales for lunch. In an open office.

    1. Argh!*

      If you have a bad cold shouldn’t you be at home? If I were your coworker I’d be more annoyed by being exposed to your germs than to your food odors.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        No one has the time off. PTO was only recently given, by city ordinance, but I haven’t accumulated a full day yet. :(

    2. Sue No-Name*

      I for one have never found feta to be strong-smelling, and I have a somewhat sensitive nose. Don’t feel guilty about feta, I think!

    3. Kismet*

      I really think people need to get over the smelly food thing in the first place. Who cares if someone else’s food smells strongly? Are we not ever to be reminded that coworkers eat? Is it that much of an offense to discover that someone likes something you find disgusting? Is it that distracting?

      I say this as someone who reacts really horribly to the smell of cream-of-[whatever] soups. The odor is stomach-turning to me. I still wouldn’t dream of telling a coworker to not bring in their soup. If I really can’t stand it, it’s on me to leave the room, because I’m the one with the problem, not the person eating a perfectly normal food.

  125. FMLA*

    My mom was recently diagnosed with cancer and my managers/co workers have been very accomodating but I’ve thinking about applying for FMLA to be on safe side. The tricky part is that I’m employed by one company and then contracted out to another (where the accomodating managers/co workers are who are affected by my absences). If I apply to FMLA does this only extend to the company I’m employed by?

    1. Temperance*

      Talk to your HR department. I had to apply for emergency FMLA last year, and they really made the process easy.

  126. Landlocked Thalassophile*

    I have an inbox. It’s RIGHT THERE on the end of my desk near the hallway.
    And yet every single time a new project comes in, the sales people come and plop it on my desk right in front of me, on top of what I am currently working on. On my keyboard, or my mouse, sometimes they whip it down and scatter my notes, or sometimes they slap it in my lap if I don’t have my arms in the way. These are not rush projects, they don’t get bumped to the head of the line just because you just wrapped up the deal.
    My target turnaround (from sales until my work is completed) on projects is 5 business days, and sales promises clients 10 working days, but I average a 2-3 day turnaround and I am not behind. All clarifications and notes should be written in the file so there’s not anything they need to tell me anything about the project. Usually it’s just a “Here ya go!” and they walk away. There is no reason for them to be so dramatic in delivering new projects.
    I’ve reminded them in the moment. Added a big sign that says “New Projects” above the inbox. I’ve had a talk with them and with the sales supervisor. Nothing changes. What I wouldn’t give for a door!

    1. Snarl Furillo*

      Train ’em like animals. Put them back on the offenders desk every time they are delivered to somewhere other than your inbox. They will learn, I promise!

    2. Red Reader*

      Like, they drop it on your work while you’re mid-working?! I’d flip a nut. Man.

      “Excuse me, do you think that interrupting me and disregarding my clearly communicated instructions is going to get you priority treatment? My inbox is right there. I don’t come into your office and throw your completed work around like confetti, I expect the same respect. Either you pick it back up and put it where it belongs, or I’m going to go give it to (Sales Supervisor) and you can get it out of their office after detention.” (Serious not serious. :P )

    3. Drew*

      “Hey, Shaq, you missed the basket again!” [dump papers into the trash]

      No, that’s not good advice, but I would have a hard time resisting the impulse to say, “Papers dumped on my desk get the lowest possible priority. If your work is high-priority, put it in my inbox. Thanks.” If that’s possible, maybe that’s a good answer for you.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Have a second inbox labeled “high priority new projects”. If anything literally gets dumped on you, make a show of putting it in the regular inbox.

    5. TL -*

      I would be so tempted to casually knock it on the floor. But I think the best response is to hand it back to them and say, “New projects go into the inbox. It’s not going into my queue unless it’s in the inbox.”

  127. Job Searcher*

    I’m looking for a job in HR. My previous jobs were with small-ish companies, so even though I was actually in marketing, when I look at the job descriptions for the HR roles, they’re all things I’ve done before with my old companies. I’m switching to HR because I realized all the things I liked best about my marketing jobs were actually the HR-related things.

    Is there anything I can do about my title though?

    I just think it looks stupid if I’m Director of Marketing and I’m applying for like HR Manager. I highlight all the things in my resume that are HR-related… not sure if people will be able to look past the title though. =(

    Thanks!

      1. Job Searcher*

        I have… I just wonder if there’s anything else I can do? I haven’t gotten any interviews yet.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      We did. We had a surprise potluck. After signing up for something I thought I could manage on a Monday morning, buying it (which required a different grocery store than usual), and putting a post-it note up at my house, I still forgot it. It’s doubly annoying to make an effort to participate in something you don’t want to participate in then not end up participating anyway.

  129. Be the Change*

    This is a little off work-topics, but want to say: I *really* appreciate the commentariat here. It seems like some very combustible things can come up and people talk about them without allowing them to combust. Such a lift to have smart, thoughtful, courteous conversation. Thanks Alison for making this possible!

  130. sheep jump death match*

    I have a question, friends! How much do you actually work at work? Like, in your 8 hr day, you spend x hours with your nose to the grindstone. Am I a uniquely terrible slacker?*

    *office/computer-based job; honestly about 4 to 5 hours of Real Hard Work a day.

    1. Murphy*

      It varies pretty drastically…I’d say mostly about that. Sometimes much less, and occasionally more.

    2. ToledoShark*

      Currently of a 7 hour day about 4. That’ll increase once my workload does but for now I’m chilling on AAM like it’s going out of style.

    3. Argh!*

      I’m a professional & a manager. I generally work almost all of my 8 hours (minus breaks) and sometimes more, but some of the lower-ranking staff where I work don’t have as much to do and have time to goof off.

    4. zapateria la bailarina*

      i’d say at the moment probably 4-5/8. there are busier times of year when it’s more like 7-8/8. i’ve worked past my 8 hours maybe half a dozen times in the 3 years i’ve been here.

    5. Adnan*

      I am here 8.5 hours Mon-Fri, with a half hour unpaid lunch break and two 15 minute paid breaks. I work at least 7.0 hours a day and most time do not even take the 15 minute breaks. Somedays it is non-stop work through the lunch break. I am job searching now, so I have my personal email open and glance at it frequently. IT does not police us and no websites are blocked. If I am not working through the lunch break, I will be on AAM for the half-hour but never go to any website not remotely related to work. Sometimes, I will stop by my co-workers desk to vent or brain storm about work stuff but that is a couple of minutes a day. My department has 2 dozen employees on this floor and the number of hours they work is not consistent. Some do a lot of personal stuff at their desks while others are engrossed in work most of the day.

    6. KAG*

      Well, I’m required to be in the office from 8-5, minus a one hour lunch break. Low productivity day; maybe 3 hours of sub-par work. High productivity? Get in at 7, leave at 7, and probably 10 of those were productive. On average; eh, maybe 6 out of 8.

      Working from home? Probably 14 out of 16 on average (I’ve taken a few PTO days so I could work from home on what would otherwise have been low-productivity days, and I used to have more flexibility) so….

    7. This Daydreamer*

      I have a seriously weird job that is an overnight shift and I can even sleep through much of it. There’s even a bed! There has to be someone there 24 hours a day in case we get a call or something happens on site, but we have very little in the way of set tasks during the shift. There are lots of little things that come up but they don’t take up much time. That said, there have been nights that kept me busy the whole time, which is usually 11 hours! Those are generally extremely stressful as well as busy shifts. There are also fairly quiet nights with one or two incidents that make me want to cry or rip my hair out.

    8. Annie Mouse*

      My shifts are 12 hours, with an hour’s worth of unpaid breaks throughout the shift. I would say I usually work about 11 – 11 and a half hours worth of that (we almost never finish on time!). Slightly less if you don’t include the driving back for breaks. The majority of the driving we do is emergency driving and therefore very much part of working.

    9. Ramona Flowers*

      Tricky because I do an emotionally difficult job and doing a bit of self care is also work. I also need to do a lot of thinking and planning. So I don’t know.

    10. Someone else*

      “Real” work “hard” work. For the most part, I do real work all day, nose to grindstone, but a lot of my work is not difficult because, well, I do it every day. But it’s still real work that needs doing. Sure there are ebbs and flows, some times of year where I’m much more slammed than others, but I do not regularly run out of work to do.

      1. Someone else*

        Ugh there was mathematical “not” symbol between work and hard in that first sentence but I guess it got parsed as html and vanished.

  131. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    My side work of caring for and talking up the kittens my wife and I foster for a shelter has worked really well!

    They are almost 12 weeks old and have many inquiries for their litter! All 10 (9 babies and mom) are healthy and friendly. One of the ones even has multiple potential adopters! And someone is even willing to take the mom and a kitten together. I was so worried. Kittens go fast, but sometimes no one wants mom and she has to sit in the shelter all alone.

    Main job-related bit: is it okay to ask around your office, etc. whether someone might want a pet? (Don’t worry, I don’t badger like some people do when selling cookies or chocolate).

    1. Infinity Anon*

      Posters are common where I work. Don’t ask directly though since it could put people on the spot. If there is a fee or application process be very upfront about it. Don’t ask if they want a kitten and then tell them about the process.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Ooh, I like this idea for my fosters. (I foster adult kitties and it is always harder to get them adopted. My current sweet girl is 9 and a half.)
        Thanks!

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      A couple of people I know who do fostering have either an Instagram or Facebook page (or both). They do the “look at what Cookie and crew got into” type posts along with “Cookie is now up for adoption!” advertising. It’s a way to let people know and support without being in your face — and you can also tie people back to the shelter you support if “Cookie” isn’t their cup of tea.

  133. anony-mouse for this one*

    Update and major thank you to the commentariat of AAM for their advice!

    A few weeks ago I posted about annoying/incompetent co-worker (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/open-thread-september-22-23-2017.html#comment-1652758)

    It’s only been a month, but I took the advice give to heart and really starting being more assertive in dealing with her. Sending things back to her to re-do if necessary, place in the file they belong in on her own, holding her accountable when she plays dumb by showing her emails or other documentation, etc.

    Most recently when we were scheduling a meeting, neither of us in our own office:
    HER: Can we meet Wed or Thursday to cover X? What time are you available?
    ME: Sure, my Outlook is up to date, just take a look when you get back to your office and schedule something; I have nothing pressing either day.
    HER: schedules a meeting overlapping with the only other meeting I have schedule either day
    ME: declines You scheduled it for the only 30 minute window I am marked as busy.
    HER: Oh, well in that case I can met between 8:15- 9:30, 11:oo-11:45, etc…….
    ME: If you are asking me to take the reigns in scheduling I will but can’t get to until tomorrow; I am on deadline. I will be more than happy to show you how to use the Outlook Scheduling Assistant. Go ahead and add it to our agenda.
    HER:     sends new meeting request Oh, I just forgot to look at that before schedule. See you at 9:00 Thursday!

    She obviously is no longer a fan of mine, not based on this interaction, but on others. I don’t care because I don’t need her to be my friend, I need her to be someone I can reasonably work with. And I can already see in a short time that she is starting to change her behavior, which is glorious.

    My boss is still an issue. I did talk to her again and she said she agreed that the age thing was a weak excuse. But that I needed to still show empathy because she thinks co-worker is very self-conscious and doesn’t want anyone to think she doesn’t know anything, even when she doesn’t, so she’s always going to act like she already knows or not ask for help. Asking me to do things for her is just a way to avoid admitting she doesn’t know how to do it. (Bosses words, not mine.)

    So, while no hope there, I will manage by assertiveness until I actually do manage her and handle differently from there if it’s still an issue.

    Thanks for hanging in for my update! I know it was a long one!

    1. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

      Yay for assertiveness! Glad to hear it’s working!

      Gosh, dealing with her sounds exhausting. I think if you like cookies you should reward yourself with one :) (cookies are on my brain since my coworker requested gluten-free dairy-free cookies and my other coworker requested cookies with chocolate)

  134. ToledoShark*

    Recently I interviewed with a very small organisation and for the interview I had to bring along all of my certifications, college transcripts etc. which were copied just before the interview. That’s pretty unusual where I live, particularly with smaller organisations. I subsequently didn’t get the job and feel kinda weird about them having all my college transcripts, professional certifications etc. on file. Am I overthinking?

    1. Wendy Darling*

      Probably? I think them asking for all of that stuff is silly and a waste of your and their time, but I doubt they’re going to do anything malicious with it.

      Could you contact them and ask what their policy is on retaining that info if you’re not hired? Would that be weird/overstepping? I know I’ve had to agree to various companies’ data retention policies when applying before but those were MASSIVE companies.

    2. zapateria la bailarina*

      Like Wendy suggests, I would ask about their retention policies, and then possibly ask them to destroy my personal information. They probably just keep it in a file with the resumes of everyone else who has ever applied there, but I don’t think it’s out of like to request that they not keep your transcripts and certifications.

    3. Fake old Converse shoes*

      The two big corps I worked before asked for transcripts, but only once I was hired. Weirdly enough, last year a company contacted me and asked to send a scan the diploma (the actual cardboardy framed piece of paper with no value at all, not the transcript) as a requirement to get an interview. My answer? No, thank you.

  135. opportunity_costs*

    I found a new job and I’m starting November 1st. Realistically speaking, it’s a compromise, especially in terms of salary.

    But you know what? I hate my current job so much and the fact that my company is currently making it super difficult for me to leave makes me feel my new job is my dream job. I just can’t anymore :(

    1. Argh!*

      I’m coming to that point, too. I just applied for a job with the same salary in a city that’s much more expensive than where I’m currently living. I can’t deal with the repressive, secretive atmosphere here anymore.

  136. Fed Anon*

    I have bipolar disorder and have lately been feeling very depressed. It’s starting to affect my work and my overall attitude at work, on top of having trouble getting out of bed. I don’t know if I should say something to someone but am worried if I do because while my type of bipolar disorder is mostly depression and some slightly elevated moods, I know there’s a general negative stereotype. I would just start seeing a therapist again, but my job requires a security clearance, and while I’ve had one previously and currently have an interim clearance I am undergoing the investigation and don’t know if starting to see a therapist during the investigation would negatively affect my chances. And I love my job and would rather be miserable now than lose it, but it could be another year or more. Does anyone have any advice on what I can do?

    1. Argh!*

      You should probably see a real psychiatrist, not a therapist. If having your disorder would disqualify you from your job, then so be it. There are other jobs but there is no other *you.*

      1. Fed Anon*

        I see a psychiatrist but she’s just for short medication management things and brief updates. She couldn’t see me on an every week basis or every other week, and based on my history with the illness I think that’s what I need. I’m looking for a second person for counseling but worry about the impact.

        1. strawberries and raspberries*

          Would your psychiatrist have any referrals for a support group or something like it, where you could get the resources you need without having to commit to individual therapy at the moment? I think if you explain the situation to her she could also probably give you more context as to how much information your security clearance investigation requires and what she or any therapist is legally and ethically bound to divulge or not. (I would imagine not much, owing to HIPAA law, but I’m not a lawyer.) Additionally, Psychology Today has a great Find a Therapist tool, which also lets you search for support groups, and you can filter your results specifically for bipolar disorder.

          1. Fed Anon*

            Thanks for the advice! A support group is a good idea. My psychiatrist doesn’t actually know the process, but I signed something giving her permission to answer the questions asked. The people who would know the process and the impact of starting new treatment during the investigation are coworkers, and I really don’t want to bring it up to them.

          1. Fed Anon*

            I actually did call my psychiatrist this afternoon but she hasn’t returned the call yet. Thanks for your advice.

  137. Wendy Darling*

    I have a job! I have a start date for the job! It’s Monday!

    I don’t have any information about where to go or who to ask for on my first day. I’m a long-term temp via a staffing agency so all the paperwork and budget approvals have been done but I don’t have instructions for where to go when or who to talk to when I get there (the company has two local offices and I don’t even know which one to report to).

    Sooooooo instead of having a relaxing day today I get to blow up some people’s inboxes. Yay.

  138. formal address*

    This will seem like a petty question to ask.

    I recently had a very positive business experience for my side small business. It was a big step for me. I was speaking with a medical office. I met the main doctor of the practice but would primarily be dealing with the physician’s assistant. The PA and I get along wonderfully and I look forward to working with him in the future.

    My silly question… how do I formally address a physician’s assistant. I would at least like to start out addressing them more formally as a sign of respect; ie let him tell me to call him John. The office is small, with a laid back atmosphere (I was already invited to a company lunch to get to know me better!)

    So those in a medical field – do I address the PA as Dr. Smith, Mr. Smith (I feel like addressing him as Mr downgrades his hard work to becoming a PA, but was not sure if Dr is appropriate or offensive to the main doctor). Any thoughts

    1. formal address*

      PS before anyone asks, yes I’ve met the PA before but all of our meetings ended up him just being there. For example I was brought into a meeting where he was already in the room. I was introduced to him as John Smith, PA.

    2. Amber Rose*

      How have you been addressing him so far?

      If you suddenly go formal from casual, you’re going to have the opposite effect and probably come across as cool or upset.

      1. formal address*

        That’s the thing, I haven’t had to address him. All initial correspondence was done through Dr. Jones. Dr. Jones hired my company to help the office with some general office work. When I met the team it was in a group – this is Sally Smarts our nurse, Susie Q our receptionist; overhere we have John Smith, our Physician’s Assistant. In the two times I met the PA in interviews, he was already in the room. I haven’t had the opportunity to correspond with or meet him spontaneously. Though I’ve been told the office is very informal, this is a big account for me so I am trying to start off on the right foot. I don’t want to seem naive asking the Dr. Jones.

    3. Lunchwalker*

      Not sure how common this is, but I see several PAs as a patient and their staff call them Dr. Since they are mostly my age and I am a long term patient we are on a first name basis.

    4. Book Lover*

      Well, you can’t call him Dr. Smith because he isn’t a doctor. The appropriate form of address is Mr.

    5. I get that*

      A PA degree is a master’s level. There are no titles so formally he would be Mr. Just ask how you should address him. There no need to wait for him.

  139. probably overthinking it*

    I am in the Army Reserves and recently took Command of my unit. On the civilian side, I am in my first “real” job, I have been here for 3 years, and the company has always been great at handling my absences and commitments to the Army. Since I took command in May, the commitments have only increased. While the normal time off is usually one weekend a month (sometimes a 3- or 4-day, which involves taking time away from work) and 2 weeks in the summer, this year our summer training was 3 weeks long, and in the past 5 months I’ve had to take additional time off for the Army as well. And it’s only increasing. Next week I will be out for 4 days, I have a week of training in January, and next year’s summer training will actually be 4 weeks long – the entire month of March. Throughout it all my supervisor has been understanding and flexible. He never gives me a hard time when I tell him I need time off (my last supervisor sometimes asked me to get out of training commitments!), and he doesn’t make me take the time off unpaid (or use vacation time). I want to get him a Christmas card this year and write a note thanking him for being so flexible and supportive of my Army duties. Would this be appropriate? I really do appreciate how great he is, and I know the Army can frequently be disruptive to my civilian job. He’s given me one of his family’s Christmas cards in the past (family photo and holiday wishes, no personal notes or anything) and a small gift card. I know upward gifts are a no-no but would a heartfelt thank you be okay?

    1. CBH*

      I think this is an amazing idea. It shows that you are not taking advantage of his good will and that you understand the sacrifices he / the company are making to allow you to do this. I’d say go for it. I personally would think that your boss would be flattered by such a gesture and think that heartfelt note was gift enough. Keep us posted.

      1. probably overthinking it*

        Thank you for your advice! They knew about the commitment when I was first hired, but the new position is becoming more and more demanding. I just want to show how much I appreciate the company’s support – and his specifically.

    2. Anono-me*

      I would look into what programs your Military Reserves has to honor supervisor or business who are really good about doing this stuff right and nominate your supervisor and/or company.

      2. probably overthinking it*

        This is a great idea! I just did this with the local chapter of the Employer Support organization. Thanks!

  140. Beth Johnson*

    Resume question. I am starting a job search due to a relocation and having issues with my resume. I am a government contractor and have been in the same slot for 15 years. But due to contract rebids, I have had 8 employers and three job titles while having the same general job. The title all cross over between at least two companies. My company’s job title was usually different then my position title.
    For example, at one point my government title was Teapot coordinator, my company job title was Designer 3. The next year, new company, I’m still Teapot coordinator but the new company lists me as Painter 4. Then I became the Teapot and Teacup coordinator for the government, but I am still Painter 4 at the company
    Any suggestions on how to logically organize this on a resume?

    1. Lady Kelvin*

      I would list it as “Contractor for [Agency] 2000-2015” then list the years/titles for each company you were with, then the highlights of your accomplishments. Most people who are familiar with government contracting knows that while the companies can change the people often don’t.

    2. Argh!*

      You could group them under one heading (Teapot Experience) and then explain the similarities in the cover letter.

  141. DC*

    So, I posted last week about how I’m stuck here til Spring (due to a degree I’m finishing), and how I was working on documentation and how-tos while I prepped to basically cut and run as soon as the right job came along.

    Boss and I had a casual conversation while looking over the calendar the other day that included:
    B:”In downtime, you need to be making a manual of what you do.”
    M:”Yes, I’ve been working on that, since I realized graduation is coming up.”
    B: “Yes, and you won’t be here forever.”

    It didn’t feel threatening, it felt healthy, which was GREAT!

    And, in other positives, I spoke with someone I trust in our budget side about the timesheet fraud thing, and t’s nice to have someone else aware of it.

    All in all, a much better week! Still job hunting! I submitted my first few apps this week. If anyone has advice about cold-emailing a firm that listed under careers “We’re always looking to add to our team. Email us!” I’d love it, since that’s a first for me.

  142. AnotherAlison*

    I have a much more junior coworker who now has to be in by 8 am every day. We have flex time where you set your hours and can then start anytime between 6:30 and 9:00 am, but you have to work an 8 hr day and take a 30 minute lunch (so an 8.5 hr day minimum), and it has to be the same schedule daily. This person mismanaged it (late for 9 am meetings with clients, left way before 5 pm on days when he started at 9 am), so that’s why the schedule is now assigned to him.

    Now, whenever I see this person in the morning and give a typical greeting of “How’s it going?” or similar, the response is “I’m tired.” This has been every day this week. I get it. You probably are tired. You are on a new schedule & you aren’t happy. But, I think this answer is unprofessional & I’m wondering if I should tell him that, in a coaching way. He has some general issues with professionalism, and although he does good work, it has already affected his reputation and assignments.

    1. fposte*

      I think is something you can do if you want to, but honestly, if he’s already been counseled into a different schedule he may have gotten plenty of performance feedback already. I also don’t know that “I’m tired” is that far away from “Need my coffee!” standard morningisms, so I’d want to make sure I wasn’t overreading my response based on my knowledge of the backstory.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        You’re right. . .it may not be that bad as far as greetings go. I worked with another more senior coworker who complained about being tired all day, every day, and frequently fell asleep on calls and in meetings, so it may be something I weigh heavier than I should. (The other guy doesn’t work here anymore, but he definitely left a bad taste with our entire department.)

    2. zora*

      I see what you are saying and I agree it’s unprofessional, but I would not jump on it right away.

      First, it sounds like this is new, and you only mentioned one week. I’d give him some time to get it together. If it’s still going on in a month, I’d start to think about saying something. And second, I’d stop asking in the form of a question and giving him the opening, just to protect myself from the irritation of it. I’d say “Hey there!” “Morning” , etc, but work on many greetings that don’t offer him an opportunity to answer “I’m tired.”

      Like fposte, I’d assume he’s getting some coaching about this at the moment, and give it some time before getting involved myself.

    4. Thlayli*

      Stop asking how it’s going and just say “hey” instead.
      As a non-morning person currently with a 8:30am start time, I prefer monosyllabic grunts until I’ve had my coffee.

  143. not elizabeth*

    Just wanted to say… I think it’s so crazy how much how you decide to present yourself affects your chances of getting a job.

    I mean, even the smallest details. Like, when I was first out of school, and I’d go on interviews, I’d wear a blouse with a pencil skirt, blazer, black shoes, and have my hair back. And people treated me awful.

    Then, I went back in wearing an all-black, double breasted suit, heels, and I bought fake reading glasses to wear. And all of a sudden, people were nice to me and I was getting all these second interviews. One recruiter even said to me: You look so great. I wonder if the client can meet with you today.

    Even now that I’m older, it’s the same, but I’ve learned to adjust my personality in interviews as well. It’s like, people expect a certain “type” of person to excel in a role and they’re blind to anything not like that. It’s funny because I had one boss who said something to me like, “Well, you interviewed great. But then since you started, I haven’t been so sure about you because you don’t seem like the other teapot makers who work here… but then I looked at your numbers, and they’re 15% higher than the next highest person, and you’ve only been here a month. So I guess whatever you’re doing is working.” And then he told me to act more like the other people anyway.

    1. Overeducated*

      Interesting point. I feel like I’ve been interviewing more poorly this year, but I’ve also switched from suit to pencil skirt and blazer and worn contacts instead of glasses. Perhaps I’m not coming off as polished as I could, though I’m sure there’s a behavioral element too.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      My boss cares what color nail polish women who she interviews are wearing. (I don’t know how I got hired since I wasn’t wearing any.)

    3. Argh!*

      “Diversity” only applies to skin color, not personality! Put on those jack boots and get into step!

  144. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

    So I work in a pretty casual workplace, and, during meetings, I have been able to swap out chairs/stand/pace/etc–whatever I need to keep my pregnant body from getting cranky. No one is bothered by this–in fact, it is typical behavior for several folks, including my boss (who, as a 50ish year old man, has never been pregnant, but is a fidgeter).

    Another woman in my prenatal yoga class commented that her back really hurts after sitting in uncomfortable chairs for long meetings. She feels she has no option to get a different chair, or even momentarily stand and walk around the room. She has asked, and been told no. She is further along than me (36 weeks or so).

    Which of these approaches is more common? Being able to briefly stand during meetings seems like the most minor of accommodations for pregnancy, and it seems crazy that she isn’t being allowed to do so. But I wonder if my sense of what is normal/appropriate is totally out of whack from working only in pretty casual & family friendly places, and I’m curious to hear what others think.

    1. Mandy*

      I would go with her workplace being the one out of line with norms. Accommodations of that sort whether for pregnancy or other issues are pretty standard (former coworker had severe back problems following a car accident and often had to stand during meetings, another coworker has a rib that keeps slipping and often has to stand up as well, I’ve done it myself too when I’ve had back pain due to scoliosis).

    2. Mandy*

      Also, IANAL but I am pretty sure that she can request this as an official accommodation (I believer under either Americans with Disabilities Amendments act or the Pregnancy Discrimination Act) instead of what sounds like the informal request she has previously made.

    3. KR*

      We have technicians who are typically in the field doing physical work every day so when we have the occasional all day presentation or team meeting, it’s very common to get up and stand along the wall or back of the room since so much sitting makes them antsy. I’ve also done it to combat getting drowsy. Many people who aren’t pregnant have back issues or other problems that require them to stand (an old boss of mine could not sit for long and niether can my dad). I think your classmate should go back to their boss and say very clearly that sitting in the chairs for a long time is causing them physical pain because of their pregnancy and they need an accommodation and if the boss does not allow that to go straight to HR and not pass go.

  145. Lady Jaina*

    I work as a civilian GS in a military MTF (hospital). My role is administrative. Recently our department receive a new hire who is a contract employee. While not new to the job role, she is new to the way that role is done on the DoD side of things. She asks questions to clarify points that on the civilian side are done differently. This week her “Lead” yelled at the new employee that new employee was irritating her. It was so loud and bad that the employees who work in that cubicle aisle went out to the hallway. New Employee was humiliated, embarrassed, and cried in her cubicle.

    The “lead” went on to tell the employees in that cubicle aisle that they “weren’t to answer any of New Employee’s questions because she is contract and makes more money than we do”. I was appalled when I heard this. I work in the next cubicle aisle, had my earbuds in, and didn’t witness any of this nonsense. Is this legal? I know it certainly isn’t right or acting like a decent human being.

    The next day I gathered all my notes on the subject matter, made copies, and gave them to New Employee under the “I was cleaning out my files, came across this information, and will not be using it anymore”. New Employee was massively grateful. When “Lead” was out of the office I told New Employee she could email me with any questions that may come up.

    To clarify, a “Lead” makes no additional money for being a lead. It is not technically a supervisor position as the lead cannot write evals, write you up, etc. A lead is supposed to be a go-to for questions and immediate issues. Our department supervisor (who is new to that role) is of the “I am too busy to deal with this” variety. She addresses nothing and has turned out to be a massive disappointment.

    1. fposte*

      There’s nothing in this that would be illegal, at least federally. Nobody’s required to train anybody, and contractors aren’t a protected class.

      It is, however, appalling. That’s wonderful that you were able to do something, but I’m deeply disappointed that even aside from the whole being an asshole business your manager apparently wouldn’t take any action about a staffer who actively refused to do her job and blocked productivity as a result.

      1. Lady Jaina*

        My concern about legality is the “Don’t answer her questions because she makes more money than we do.”. Which, as much as I hate it, I suppose a person can say. Next in the chain of command would be the Director of the Department. That person is active duty military and they do NOT get involved with civilian affairs. Karma is a bitch though. Thank you everyone.

    2. The IT Manager*

      That’s not illegal. That is terrible and is not helpful to the contractor or your organization. Frankly the supervisor should have jumped in the moment this was reported to her. It might even be worth going over the supervisor’s head because if she’s such a “massive disappointment” hopefully her supervisor is aware and ready on to act on something like this.

    3. miyeritari*

      I can’t imagine it’s not legal to yell at people and be told you’re supposed to train them, but it is abysmal treatment of a coworker, contractor or no. Good on you for reaching out.

      1. zora*

        It’s also REALLY bad for the organization!! You really don’t want people doing things without any training on the correct way to do things, especially in a government organization, and TRIPLE QUADRUPLE especially in a hospital!! Where detail and regulations are extremely important. This should be brought up as a business issue and it should be made clear to the Lead that her most important duty is to make sure that everyone in the department is aware of the correct ways to do their job. Wow.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Wow for your lead being [several rude terms that would put my comment in moderation]. Humiliating a new employee for making sure she is doing things right? Somehow I don’t think that lead would be fine with any mistakes she made because she didn’t get the answer she needed.

      And wow for you for going out of your way to help your new colleague. She must be so relieved that someone is willing to do what the lead should be doing!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Yep, you did good here.

        It’s so stupid to get mad about this as surely they want things done right!

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I believe your new contractor co-worker does have the option of contacting your agency’s or office’s COR (contractor representative) for assistance/guidance. Your COR is (usually) an on-site government employee who handles contractor-related workplace issues; your new contractor may already know who that is. If she doesn’t, her contractor home office should be able to tell her, or your (do nothing) boss should know. If your office does have a decent COR, the contractor should be able to go to him/her in confidence to discuss what speech/actions led up to the “Lead’s” (totally unprofessional) outburst, and see if the COR has any suggestions about how best to “manage up” the Lead. And, for the record, your Lead is a [series-of-colorful-bad-words here].

  146. ThatLibTech*

    I’m starting a new job next Thursday, moving from working in an academic library setting (multiple faculties) to working in a law library. Except I am… very green to law and law libraries for the most part? I’m lucky that in my remaining weeks at this job I work primarily at the uni law library, the staff are very helpful, and the liason librarian has offered to help me out if I have any questions! But I’m tempted, after starting up a good rapport with my new boss, to e-mail and ask if there is any reading I could get done on my own to prep myself for my first week at the new job? She knows that I’m very new to law libraries, and I’m getting the sense that I’m being brought in because I have library experience especially in specialized libraries and that we’ve already gone over that my first full week there she’ll be walking me through all their resources and how to research. But I just feel like I want to be… more prepared? Is e-mailing her a good idea? Or are there people here who do use law libraries have any advice/resources I can access to start brushing up now?

    Thanks in advance! x

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      What is your role going to be at the law library? Is it a law school library or a firm library or a government library? (I’m a lawyer and my library degree was with a law librarianship specialization–how I ended up where I am is a long story–so I likely will have advice.

      1. ThatLibTech*

        It’s a bit of a mix but I am technically going to be the de-facto reference/circ person as it’s currently a department of 2, and I would obviously defer to my boss a lot if the question was overly complicated for my current competency, etc. And it’s a library specifically for to my province’s legal society, with interaction from non-society members but having to be involved with the legal profession/with permission.

        I’d appreciate any advice you could give!

        1. Teapot Librarian*

          Connected to the comments below, it sounds like you’re in Canada, so CALL — the Canadian Association of Law Libraries — is probably a good place to start. Also I’d look to see if I can find online the syllabus for a legal research course, whether at a library school or a law school, and see what the professors think is important for students to know.
          In general, remember that everything you know about reference interviews applies in the law library context as well, except that sometimes lawyers really do want to throw everything at a problem to see what sticks, so it’s a delicate balance between tailored research and broad search terms.

    2. Argh!*

      Is there a listserv or professional association you could join? They may have useful information on their site.

  147. Psally Pseudonym*

    Here’s a delicate situation that I’d like some input on:
    We’ve been in the process of transitioning out a long-time employee under my supervision. He does fairly sensitive and specialized work for the company, but his performance just wasn’t keeping up with our needs. He’s also in a difficult personal situation, as his wife is dealing with a possibly terminal illness and has had to stop working. We offered him a long transition period, a positive reference, and severance pay.
    His wife recently took a turn for the worse and he called the CEO (who’s his personal friend and my boss) during a moment of crisis. In this conversation he threatened to cause irreparable harm to the company’s current work due to the amount of access he has. The CEO responded by saying he would reconsider the transition if the employee would go to therapy under a supervised EAP (i.e. the CEO has the right to ask for proof from the therapist that session are being attended, but not to know the content of the sessions).
    Obviously I feel like this was a huge mistake and now we’re in this hostage standoff with a guy who knows he can get what he wants through threats. And of course I’m still his direct supervisor. There’s really only so much I can do about this, because the CEO is affected by his friendship with this guy and is gonna do what he wants, but I’d love to hear thoughts about how to make this better should I have the chance to weigh in.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      I wouldn’t be quick to judge someone for lashing out when they are likely at the worst moment of their lives. Grief and fear of loss do crazy things to people. Follow the CEO’s lead and let him handle it. I would, however, advocate for creating a backup of whatever he can affect just in case.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Obviously part of that transition would include removing access, which I would do. Immediately. I think the CEO has effectively tied your hands in a lot of other access, but threatening the company was Not Smart. And that EAP better happen too. Lawd I’m so sorry you’re in this situation.

      1. Psally Pseudonym*

        Well, that’s the thing; if this guy complies with the EAP (and so far he is), then it seems the CEO has promised to consider keeping him on. Which means we can’t remove his access, because he needs it to do his job. I’m definitely going to be looking into getting other people the same access, at least, since we really have no crisis management plan for this essential work. Also, better documentation – if he got hit by a bus tomorrow we’d lose a lot of institutional knowledge.

        1. zora*

          yikes, yeah, I’d get someone else the same access, and can you add more backups? put backups somewhere he does not have access to? This would make me super nervous from a security standpoint.

          Even if the threat was made in a moment of desperation, there’s no guarantee he won’t have another moment of desperation (Unfortunately, because I really feel for him and his wife and I hope she has a full recovery) and might lash out again by actually doing something.

    3. Emi.*

      Honestly, you need to revoke his access with no warning. This is what the HR frog-march is for. If the CEO’s determined to keep him around, could he be transferred into a role with less potential for damage?

      1. Psally Pseudonym*

        I’ve told the CEO that, if we do let him go after all this, we can’t do the “soft landing” transition originally planned. It has to be revoke his access and escort him out of the building, and then if the CEO wants to give severance after that, then fine.

        Unfortunately, there’s really no other role he could fill. We need his specific expertise for the work. That was one of the reasons for the gradual transition out in the first place, to give us time to fill the role without the work going undone.

    4. Anon attorney*

      What a horrible situation for everyone. Having been in your coworker’s position, I know that the stress can be intolerable and can lead to uncharacteristic behaviour. I’m not excusing making threats, but conscious that he may not have any intention of following through on that.

      Ultimately, I don’t think there’s much you can do about this given the amount of influence this guy has over the CEO. I do wonder to what extent therapy is going to assist with his job performance, but it probably isn’t a bad idea in general. One thing that I would want to investigate is whether or not your IT department can put in place a plan for emergency revocation of his access if things do go wrong – that is, could there be a way of setting things up so that in an emergency you can just pull the plug on the guy’s access without notice or a lot of bureaucracy?

    5. Argh!*

      Can he be put on administrative leave and have his computer access suspended? That threat would be reason enough to fire someone in a lot of places. Or FML to care for his wife? Separating him *now* would be in the best interests of all concerned, and then he can come back later to finish out the planned separation.

  148. Lissa*

    Ugh, I’m feeling fairly embarrassed/crappy….so I’ve never been good at looking polished and wearing clothing that “suits” me. I feel like I always look slightly sloppy no matter what I do a lot of the time. But in the last couple years I found a couple looks that worked OK for me, pants or nice jeans (I work in academics, this is fine) and blazers/tops, nothing fancy and not spectacular but enough to not stand out, which is really all I go for with clothes.

    However I recently lost about 25 pounds (intentionally, I’m not sick, just mentioning that to head off that potential minefield) and didn’t really think about my effect on my clothes….until my coworker pulled me aside and told me it was noticeable my clothes weren’t fitting. :( ugh, I’d kind of noticed but hadn’t really thought about it because like I said above, I’m not great with this type of thing and if I can get the item of clothing on my body I figure it’s fine. I’m not being intentionally difficult, but I often can’t tell the difference between someone looking work-polished and somebody looking not so much, and even when I can tell, I can’t even really tell why.

    Sooo now I feel like everyone’s been staring at my sloppiness and also have to buy new clothes (which is aggravating because I’m still losing weight so am likely to need to do this again in a few months, and I can’t really afford it.). Grr. Thrift shops are very difficult for me to find anything because see above as to problems figuring out what looks remotely good on me, and most of my friends who I would get to help me with this sort of thing don’t live in town.

    I just want to walk into a store and say “please dress me”.

    1. Emi.*

      It sounds like full-on hiring a stylist wouldn’t be in your budget, but could you swing something like StitchFix as a compromise? Or, if you’re going to be changing sizes again, you don’t need things to last that long, so could you just buy straightforward basics from Target (or even Forever21 or H&M, although I find their clothes less straightforward–maybe Amazon)? That way you’d have clothes that fit, which looks more put-together than higher-end clothes that don’t fit.

      1. Lissa*

        Hmm, I’ve not heard of StitchFix, will have to look into that! I’m Canadian, so not sure if that work here, but if not there might be something similar. We have different stores here (no Target anymore LOL) but some are the same, and there’s a Marshall’s across the street that has worked well for me in the past without breaking the budget..just really hate shopping alone, ha!

        1. DDJ*

          Fellow Canadian here. I would recommend Ricki’s. They run a lot of sales and the “ship to store” option is wonderful. Plus they’ve got a lot of coordinating pieces. The other thing I’d suggest is looking up capsule wardrobes. A really nice pair of black pants, a couple tops and a few accessories, and you don’t have to totally restock your wardrobe while you’re in transition.

          Good luck! I recently went through a bit of a style transformation (partly due to weight loss), and it can be really tough. I went from looser pants and a lot of polos and sweaters, to well-fitted pants, blouses/nicer tops, and cardigans. Not any harder to get ready, but does it ever make a difference to my overall presentation. And I just feel better when I’m put together nicely.

          1. Lissa*

            Ooh, there’s a Ricki’s in the mall near me, I’ve never gone in but have noticed the clothes do look like. I will have to check it out!

          2. Humble Schoolmarm*

            I completely second Ricki’s! They are more or less all business casual and lots of mix and match stuff. I try to dress fairly conservatively (no cleavage, skirts to the knee) because of my job, but I don’t want to look frumpy either and Ricks fits the bill nicely.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Are you plus size? You might want to consider using Gwynnie Bee (link in another comment). It’s a rental service like Netflix — you pay a flat fee for a certain number of items per month, and send them back whenever you want to try something new. They carry sizes from 10 – 32 (although their selection is best between 14 and 22).

      If you’re not plus sized, you might want to try Stitch Fix — you pay a monthly fee to have a box of items curated for you and then you can buy them or send them back (you can’t wear them unless you buy them). It’s not cheap, but it’s helpful to get some advice from someone about what might work for you.

      Finally, in my area (Twin Cities), one of the thrift store chains actually has a free personal shopping service. You can send them your size and preferences and they will pull a set of clothes for you to come in and try on. You may want to look around and see if anywhere near you does that.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Gwynnie Bee: https://goo.gl/EFjLhb

        ^^^ Full disclosure, that’s a referral link. If you sign up using it you get a $10 discount and I get a $25 credit. If you’d rather not do that just google “Gwynnie Bee” and you can poke around.

      2. Lissa*

        You know, I’m actually not sure! I was a 14/16 (usually…clothes are weird) but not really sure what am I now…which is probably something I should figure out, also what counts as plus size these days…

        ooh I love the idea of a personal shopping service. That is exactly what I need (at least until I can pay a full time stylist, LOL in my dreams!) I relied on a best friend who had awesome fashion, but she moved away and now I am bereft….

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          What counts as plus size varies enough to be meaningless! But Gwynnie Bee starts at size 10, so it might work for you now (but might not if you end up losing more weight).

          Some other stores also offer personal shopping services (for free). I know Nordstrom used to (and may still). The service itself is free, but of course Nordstrom is on the spendier side.

    3. AMPG*

      Can you replicate the looks you have now, just a couple of sizes smaller? That would be a great place to start.

      Also, can one of your out of town friends do a quick dressing-room video consult or something?

      Ultimately, you only need a few outfits to get by until your weight stabilizes. I aim for six tops and six bottoms that I can mix and match at a minimum.

    4. Temperance*

      I typically wear a lot of dresses and skirts, which are a lot more flexible than pants.

      I’m a huge thrift shopper. Honestly, I’m probably like way too into it, but I would ask another (female) store customer her opinion. I’ve done that before, and I’ve given feedback. I’m an outgoing thrifter, though, so YMMV.

      1. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        I have had so much luck lately with http://www.thredup.com. I’ve gotten about $900 in shoes and clothes for less than $200, all very high end and with no sign of wear. Some still had the tags on and had never been worn!

    5. Nanc*

      Maybe shop at a consignment store? If you go in wearing your work clothes or with pictures you should be able to find a few things. Bonus: you can consign your too big clothes! My small town consignment store will actually make an appointments with one of the sales clerks during slow times and they’ll help you pull things.

      If you have good quality blazers and trousers/skirts it might be worth talking to a tailor and see if they can alter them.

    6. Snarl Furillo*

      1. Could you have some of your clothes taken in? I think pants are relatively easy.
      2. There’s nothing wrong with rebuying the same clothes from the same stores in smaller sizes. You could also check eBay for same.
      3. The website Corporette has lots of good workplace clothing guidance, with links to where to buy individual pieces. Highly recommend.

      1. Lissa*

        Thanks, I will check out Corporette! Having clothes taken in is probably an option but honestly none of my clothes are very good/nice/expensive, so it doesn’t super seem worth it. I keep hearing about tailoring clothes though, if you do that, are you supposed to buy clothes that are a bit big and then have them tailored to you from that?

        1. Nanc*

          Certain styles are easier to tailor than others. I’m really tall for a woman so if I can’t find a tall size, I buy something that fits in the shoulders and take it in at the waist since a larger size will generally be longer in the sleeves and overall length. I do most of my own altering I find it easier to alter a waist than a shoulder seam. If you have any sewing skills at all you might check out Craftsy for classes or see if your local library has books, dvds or electronic resources on the subject. I practice most things on old stuff or stuff I pick up at yard sales for $1 or so.

          Alternatively, if you can find a local tailor, ask them to recommend a basic style that’s easy to tailor.

          Good luck!

        2. HannahS*

          No, no, don’t buy your clothes too big! Buy them to fit the largest part of you, and then the other relevant parts will be taken in.

        3. another Liz*

          Late reply, I know, but a tailor would be an affordable interim solution. Pants and button down shirts can be taken in fairly easily, so I would start there. Wrap dresses and blouses are great for a changing figure. I tend to hover right at the break between the smallest plus size and largest women’s size, which sounds like where you are now (anywhere from a 12 to a 1x depending on the brand). I go to Maurice’s and tell them, this is my budget, dress me.

      2. Kate in Scotland*

        The ebay option sounds like the best to me. I’ve been seriously thinking of using it to re-buy favourite clothes that have worn out. (In my case, I might be buying a size larger than I originally had.) Also, I am not a shopping person so once I find something I like I will buy it in every colour that suits me.

    7. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

      I was just thinking about posting something like this! You are so not alone in the struggle.

      The worst thing is that I used to work at Nordstrom so I had tons of coworkers who were more than happy to dress me :/ and I am awesome at picking out clothes for others, just not myself? Everything I choose makes me look younger. Everything I do makes me look younger. (Hair up, hair down, hair curled, makeup, blazer, suit, jewelry, smiling, not smiling, etc) I just have a naturally youthful look which I’m sure I’ll be thankful for someday!

      AMPG has really good advice – you just need a few good basic pieces for now that you can mix and match. You don’t have to break the bank with basics! I’ve found good basic pieces at Old Navy, 6pm.com and Nordstromrack.com

      Nordstrom does offer free personal shopping services (you can also just go in, pick a kind salesperson in a department like “Point of View” and say “please dress me for work” and they’ll be more than happy to help you) but I’d hold off a bit longer because if they are good at their job you will be very tempted to spend large sums of money. Just stick with a few good basics and then head to Nordstrom when you’re ready to splurge.

    8. Argh!*

      There may be suitable clothes at consignment or charity shops. You could also put an ad in craigslist for a seamstress to take in your clothes. It would probably depend on the kind of clothes that are getting loose, but it would help for now.

      Congratulations on your weight loss!

    9. Thlayli*

      You can actually walk into a lot of places and say “please dress me”. A lot of big stores have stylists on staff and you can make an appointment.
      Pinterest also has loads of stuff about style on it.

      1. Thlayli*

        Actually, you could ask the colleague who mentioned it to you for help either. Does she dress well? Is she a similar body type to you? if the answer to either is no then tread carefully but it might still be worth asking her to go shopping with you once

    10. mreasy*

      I’m a huge fan of sending photos of outfits to trusted faraway pals. Have done this for interview & special occasion ensembles. Basics from an inexpensive place + friends’ input could be a solution.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Oh, how I miss the show What Not to Wear.
      Anyhow… Do you have a Nordstrom nearby? They offer a personal shopping service. While expensive, I do not believe you’re obligated to buy what you try. Or maybe you can limit to like one thing, but learn what types of things fit you best. I haven’t tried StitchFix and the mail services, but the seem to be a good option as they pick out full outfits.
      Also, you might want to invest in the so-called “capsule” wardrobe of basics that always look good.
      The blog YouLookFab explains some of this and has other links.

    12. nonegiven*

      My color blind husband was paint department manager in store that no longer exists. He’s go to the men’s department and have them put together everything from socks to tie and he’d keep it all together so he’d match.

  149. KatieKate*

    I sent in a job application for an out of state position, and I didn’t include anything about my willingness to move for it. Is that assumed? I’m not planning to leave my city, but I would for the job.

    1. Database Geek*

      You’ll probably get asked if you’re aware it’s in another state/are you willing to move/etc. as part of the phone screen or even a first email before they schedule it. I ended up adding a sentence about wanting to move to the state I was applying to jobs for so that they would know right away instead of having to ask.

    2. zora*

      If it’s the kind of job where they will get a lot of local candidates, honestly, you probably won’t make it past the first round. There are a few industries where it’s really common to relocate people for positions (Academia is one), but if you’re not in one of those industries, you really can’t count on them to assume anything.

      If you are applying for a job in a different state, you really need to clarify your situation in the cover letter, or people are going to wonder why you are applying. In fact, people on the hiring side have posted in these very threads saying exactly that.

      In my case when I was looking for a long-distance job, I was actively planning a move to that specific city, so I made that very clear, so they would know that I wasn’t expecting them to pay relocation costs, and even gave a specific date I was planning to be moved there. It was a little bit of a fudge, because I didn’t have an apartment set up yet, but I was 90% sure I would be available to start work by that date.

      If you are not already planning a move, you need to say something like: “I am not currently planning to move, but this would be such an exciting opportunity for me, I would be willing to move to XCity at my own expense, and could be moved within 1 month of receiving an offer.” Really you need to be super specific, because otherwise, they will assume you are expecting relocation paid for and they likely don’t have any budget for that, or they’ll assume you applied without even paying attention where the job was.

  150. Change is a comin'*

    Recently I have been thinking about going back to school and getting a degree in an entirely different field. I would get likely a second bachelors degree and then pursue possibly an advanced degree in new field. Frankly I got a really low GPA my first time through–I wouldn’t qualify for most grad programs currently due to that. I had issues coping with depression in my early 20s and looking at my transcript my grades did a roller coaster depending on the time of year–I have a much better handle on my depression symptoms now and my final few semesters on my transcript were a much higher GPA with more consistent quality performance.

    I’m not moving on this quickly, I am going to give myself a full year to research if this direction is really where I want to go, get a better feel for the industry I would end up in, understand what I would need to to do financially to go back to school, find different programs, figure out if I would really want to do a degree, or just a certification, etc. If at the end of the year I still feel like this is what I would want to do I would then start the process of applying to programs etc.

    Has anyone else completely changed their career? Went back to school for something completely different? What did you do? How did you go about it and what obstacles did you encounter?

    I currently work in the tech world (not dev–I work with QA and automation) and want to transition to emergency/disaster response, management and mitigation (depending on the school, sometimes this is in a public health program, or public policy program or something completely on its own). Part of my research will likely include some volunteer work to see if I can even hack it in that field–it is a high stress field often with lives on the line and vast repercussions, so I may not even be a right personality to cope with it. If anyone has experience in this area your insights would be welcome.

    1. Argh!*

      Good luck with that! You might check with the local Red Cross or fire department to see where you could volunteer.

      I have experience going back to school after many years away, and I did find that I had a better work ethic for school because of the habits I developed in the work world. My grades weren’t superlative but I did learn a lot better than I did the first time around. You have probably changed more than you realize.

  151. Rusty Shackelford*

    In this conversation he threatened to cause irreparable harm to the company’s current work due to the amount of access he has.

    Ooooohhhhh… if I were in charge, anyone who threatened the company like that would have their access cut off immediately, like, before he left my office.

  152. AnotherLibrarian*

    A mentor of mine contacted me to see if I was interested in applying to a position at her organization. I am working on scheduling a time when we can talk. I would not be working directly for her, but she would be my Grandboss. I am fully qualified for the position and it would be a title bump, if not an official raise in responsibility.

    What sort of questions should I ask when we talk?

    Also, is there a professional way to bring up Salary? It’s not listed in the add.

  153. mostly_correct*

    I’m leaving my current job at the end of October.

    In my job I travel a lot – most weeks I’m abroad. I agreed to stay till the end of the month (I didn’t have to agree to that according to my contract…) as a kind of favor to the company. It was important for them that I work and I didn’t want to burn bridges.

    Now I learn that my company credit card is to be closed tonight. The company just let me know today. This means I won’t be able to pay with my credit card anymore (!). Although I need to pay with it for my expenses while travelling next week and the following one.

    It’s mostly about taxis. It’s a lot of money as I work in a place I need to commute to by taking a taxi. I would spend on that about 300 dollar in sum the following two weeks.

    I’m honestly shocked by my employer’s behavior and think about cancelling my work in the next 1.5 weeks. Another department, for which my work abroad in the next 2 weeks is super important, offered to reimburse me in cash, but I work in a huge company that follows the rules for reimbursements very closely – only those expenses from the credit card are getting reimbursed – I’ve heard many stories about that already -, so my reimbursement doesn’t feel secure if it’s not on my credit card. Not to mention that it’s not normal for a department I don’t work for to reimburse me. And not to mention, it would be super difficult to organise the reimbursement (different currencies, on my credit card an exact sum to be reimbursed was shown).

    Ideas how I should tackle that? I can hardly express how angry I am. I made them a favor and they are treating me like that.

    1. fposte*

      Wow, I would be pretty angry too. I would check with both my manager and the person who authorizes the card. My inclination is to do an emergency query first to make sure this can’t be quickly reversed or repaired, and then if that doesn’t fix things to remind them that I agreed to extend my stay and complete this travel at their request, and that the sudden demand that I float my own costs for the travel I’m doing as a favor seems to be operating in bad faith.

      1. mostly_correct*

        I did just that. I contacted them several hours ago and they haven’t replied. That’s so disrespectful.

        I’m not sure what I should do.

        A part of me just want to leave it like that, without going back even to give my laptop back.

        1. fposte*

          Can say that travel to the job site on Monday is dependent on your having a working credit card? Along with you understand that may not be possible, you’ve enjoyed working with with them, today would otherwise be your last day, and you’ll make arrangements to post the laptop back to them professionally packed and insured.

    2. Nanc*

      I think just a polite word with your boss saying that you can’t pay for travel expenses out of pocket and if they want you to stay, they need to reinstate your credit card or give you the cash up front. If they won’t it’s fine to say you can’t travel. I know you don’t want to burn bridges but sheesh, they’re being pretty unprofessional.

    3. Sam Foster*

      Contact your travel coordinator and ask if she’s processed the cancelation of the trips. That ought to get their attention even if it is passive-aggressive.

  154. Fact & Fiction*

    Just wanted to share that using a lot of what I’ve learned from AAM over the years, I was lucky enough to get offered an amazing job last week, moving back to the online content writing I enjoy so much for a 40% pay raise and amazing benefits. One more week to work at my current amazing employer and then the leap of faith. Current boss has already said in more than welcome back so it’s nice to have a safety net.

    I’ve been wanting a change of pace for awhile and this job will be great for my resume so I’m excited!

  155. CT*

    My company is not great at hiring. Our interview process generally takes place with just one in-person interview, where the candidate speaks with half the employees here (about a dozen people) over the course of four hours.

    I’m now in charge of scheduling the next round of intern interviews. My manager wanted the candidates to meet with five employees for 30 minutes each. I pushed back on the length of time and got it shortened to 20 minutes each, but then he added three more people to the interview list. So now each intern candidate will have to meet with eight people in under three hours. My manager will not change this.

    So my question is, how can I make this less painful for these students?? They’ll be spending most of their time repeating the same information to each new person. Is there anything I can tell them to make their interview more insightful? Are there any really great interview questions I can ask to probe them at a more in-depth level?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is there a reason you can’t do a panel interview instead of these repetitive individual ones? If everyone is going to ask the same questions, why not let the candidate answer once rather than 8 times? This number of interviews seems excessive for an experienced role, muchless a student intern.

  156. AudreyParker*

    Anyone have experience with one of these coding bootcamps actually helping make a career change? (I’m thinking more along the lines of Skillcrush vs one of the incredibly expensive, live-and-breathe back-end code for 6 months things.)

    I’m job hunting and having trouble applying my varied past experience into, well, anything, let alone anything compelling with a decent salary. I’ve done admin and project management work amongst the other bits and pieces, and have zero interest in doubling-down on that if I can help it. I find UI, UX, and front end dev positions sound more interesting (project-oriented, concrete results), but haven’t done enough official work in those realms to really even mention. Many of these programs say that they’ll position you for some kind of employment by the end, and I’m wondering whether that’s really the case, or if even a junior position would require several years of committed study and a sizable portfolio. Since I’m not working right now, I don’t have that kind of time to become employable, and just want to be realistic as I evaluate the options…

    1. Temperance*

      So, Booth has done some hiring for developer positions, and he, and his current and former orgs, skip over anyone who has been through bootcamp but doesn’t have a degree and/or relevant experience. (They also skip over anyone with a for-profit degree.)

      Why not spend your time working on a portfolio, while you’re unemployed?

      1. AudreyParker*

        I don’t really know enough HTML or CSS (or anything else!) to just randomly jump in and do something – I feel like I would need a structured environment to learn how to approach things properly, or even what I need to learn, and get feedback etc. If I could do it on my own, I’d have done it by now ;) Not to focus on Skillcrush, but I do know they kind of have you create a portfolio as you learn, so you have a tangible result. I’m not thinking I’d actually cite them on my resume or anything, more wondering whether whatever you learn is even at a level that’s useful for anyone. I don’t really have the resources to go get a whole new Bachelors degree at this point in my life… Also, I’m not clear how me randomly throwing together a portfolio would be better experience than having guided instruction? It sounds like unless you have a BS or internship/volunteer experience, it may all be a waste of time, though, from what you’re saying.

  157. Don't want to lose my bonus*

    I have reached BEC levels with my job, but I’m hanging in here for another month in order to get my annual bonus* (to be paid out right before Thanksgiving). I don’t know exactly how much the bonus will be, although I have an idea based on what coworkers have told me about previous years. I’m factoring the typical bonus amount into eventual salary negotiations, but I’ve still earmarked this lump sum to clear up some lingering expenses.

    Let’s say I apply somewhere today, fly through the interview process and I have an offer well before the next four weeks are up. Would giving notice before bonuses are distributed put said bonus in jeopardy? Should I wait until after bonuses are handed out to give notice? How long after? I know the whole “the company would cut you loose without a second thought” line of thought, but it still feels a little rude to be like, “thanks for this wad of cash, and here’s my two week’s notice.” ??

    *Instead of merit increases, my company does COL increases at the beginning of the year and “performance bonuses” at the end.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Entirely depends on the policy. If the policy says you have to be working there the day they pay it, and you quit a week early, you don’t get the money. If policy is working as of XX date, and you were, then you’re ok.

      But that’s assuming they have a written policy that covers this stuff. If in doubt, hold off.

    3. NacSacJack*

      The loss of the potential bonus could be negotiated with the new company as a signing bonus. We here don’t get our 401K bonus unless we are employed on Dec 31st. My plan is, if I do look for a job and get an offer, depending on the time of the year (>March 31st), to include that in my negotiation. Either I get a significant jump in pay or a signing bonus equal to the 401K match. By the way, it isnt rude, since the bonus is based on past performance, not Stay-Pay.

      1. Mirth & Merry*

        Agreed! The company can decide you don’t need to work your notice so I would wait if that is a huge deal to you. But also depending on how bad work is affecting you, would it be worth it to just have a better job overall? And for how long to wait, I say the day after it hits your bank account. Last year at my company, the Friday the bonus hit the account about 10 maintenance people put in there notice. It amused most of us, HR not so much :)

  158. Sybil Fawlty*

    I wanted to say thank you for the support last week when I wrote about my business probably closing. I am going to close a big and expensive product, and hope to re-open it when and if I can. I was talking to a few people about my bad news, and they may be able to help me get more clients. I am still not sure what will happen but it looks like I may be able to salvage it after all.

    Thank you again!

  159. UO*

    I currently do user operations/customer success for a small online company. I am the only UO/CS person, which is perfect for the company’s needs – I don’t have any reports. I report to the director of monetization. Because of this, I have a lot of great flexibility on how user operations is done, including providing user feedback into new products (and sometimes they even listen)!

    I’m wondering what are ways to grow in my role currently would be here, or what would be the next step in another position? Because I don’t have any managerial experience, I’m not confident taking a new customer success manager position at another place. Maybe I should be? Do you think it’s helpful at all for me to get an MBA?

  160. Serah*

    I have a job offer dilemma, and wondered if any of you awesome folks might be able to help:

    I’ve been offered a job that sounds interesting and I respect the hiring manager. The offer initially started low but they did come up to the lower end of my range after fierce negotiation. But ultimately, they won’t budge on vacation time, which is the typical 10 days and accrues over the course of the year. They say it is company policy. I need 2 weeks off (in 5 months) which I informed their HR after receiving the job offer, but they will not consider the option of me even taking the time unpaid (2 wks).

    They want an answer asap. I have a few strong interviews with other companies next week, and I feel strongly that I may get another offer elsewhere as well, but I also feel like I am not ready to turn this down due to the strength of the manager and team. However, they’ve made it clear that they will not allow any flexibility in any time off, and it’s a senior level position. HELP!

    1. CatCat*

      They’re being weirdly rigid about the days off, which raises a red flag for me. Even if the hiring manager and team seem great, if the organization is Difficult (I am not sure what you meant by “fierce” negotiation so maybe I’m incorrectly reading an odd aggression into that as well), that is something to consider.

      2. Serah*

        And yes, I have to be honest in that I’ve never encountered as difficult negotiations on all levels: salary, time off, etc, as I have in this particular offer, which I have been finding is sucking the very enthusiasm out of me for any aspects of the job I thought I’d like.

        1. CatCat*

          Yeah, it’s not a good sign if the company is already sucking away your enthusiasm.

          I’d probably repel this organizational vampire and save my enthusiasm for the other promising prospects.

    2. Colette*

      How badly do you need the time off?

      Honestly, being able to take time off when necessary (even if it’s unpaid) is a pretty big deal. I’d pass.

      1. Serah*

        It is pretty big. I have a trip planned…but also need some flexibility around some family events. Not in need of a ton of time, two weeks, but they’re not having it.

        Thanks for your comments and advice, which really helped clarify my feelings.

        1. Colette*

          Yeah, if they won’t give you time off now (when they’re trying to hire you), I wouldn’t count on ever taking time off if you take the job.

  161. Laika*

    I have a job offer dilemma, and wondered if any of you awesome folks might be able to help:

    I’ve been offered a job that sounds interesting and I respect the hiring manager. The offer initially started low but they did come up to the lower end of my range after fierce negotiation. But ultimately, they won’t budge on vacation time, which is the typical 10 days and accrues over the course of the year. They say it is company policy. I need two weeks off (in 5 months) which I informed their HR after receiving the job offer, but they will not consider the option of me even taking the time unpaid (2 wks).

    They want an answer ASAP. I’ve asked for a few days. I have a few strong interviews with other companies next week, and I feel strongly that I may get another offer elsewhere as well, but I also feel like I am not ready to turn this down due to the strength of the manager and team. However, they’ve made it clear that they will not allow any flexibility in any time off, and it’s a senior level position. HELP!

    1. Here we go again*

      I think this is where you go with your gut… It sounds like they really don’t care about their employees and you feel like there might be something better for you. I would listen to that instinct.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      “They want an answer ASAP”.

      Unless there’s a reason they need an answer ASAP, imposing artificial time pressure is a shitty negotiation technique. Just remind yourself that you’re comparing this job to a future undefined job, and not comparing it to no job.

    3. Kathenus*

      Right now you have a clear choice – you take this job knowing you can’t take the two weeks off in five months you asked them about (if you wouldn’t have accrued enough by then), at the salary you negotiated in the low end of your range, knowing that there is no flexibility going forward in their time off policy. Unless either they’ll wait longer for an answer – which doesn’t sound likely, or the other companies are willing/able to fast-track a decision – this is the information available to decide on this particular job. Unfortunately it leaves you in the position of making an important decision without information on the other job possibilities, but realizing what you do know and making a decision with your eyes wide open based on it is the hand you’ve been dealt. Good luck.

  162. Not All That Great Again*

    First off, thanks for being an amazing community and sharing your wealth of work-related knowledge! I’m a regular lurker/non-poster and I really appreciate y’alls advice for early-career folks like me.

    I need a check on whether I’m overreacting to a situation and, if not, scripts to deal with it.

    I work for a small company and over the past year using the phrase “Make _____ Great Again” has become a regular office joke among the guys – up to and including our director. Personally I’m not a fan of this – I think that the phrase is dogwhistle-y and the joke is overused and tiresome at this point – but it’s a minor thing so I generally just ignore it. However now they’re discussing using it as a company slogan in a public outreach campaign, which I think is a step too far. We live in a very liberal area, and I think at best our target audience will roll their eyes and groan but at worst we run the risk of angering potential donors. Essentially it comes down to a difference of opinion: the guys think that being edgy and controversial is funny and great in the “any attention is good attention” sort of way, whereas I think that it’s too risky and completely unnecessary to use this campaign slogan when we have several better options on the table.

    So – am I overreacting? Is this slogan actually funny to lots of people? Should I just swallow my concerns? It’s worth noting that I am not a core staff member and my opinion is not generally valued so my options are limited.

    I know this question references a political slogan, but I’d prefer not to get into a discussion of political beliefs if possible. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I don’t live in a liberal area, but I still sighed while reading about your company’s plan. It’s an overplayed idea; it’s tired. You need something with life. It’s like when everyone started throwing an “i” in front of everything because of iPods and iPhones. Now we have iGathering and iCommunity or whatever. Pardon me while I vomit at our collective lack of creativity sometimes.

      I would raise your concerns based on your target audience (or maybe my mini-rant above), and let them do what they will. See if you can get support from a coworker or three — additional numbers can help. Just mention that the first idea isn’t always the strongest idea and maybe something more like X or Y would be better because of reasons. I mean your question mentions your main issue right there — you’re using the base of a political slogan, so you’re alienating, what, half? of your potential audience at best.

      1. Not All That Great Again*

        Thanks for your advice. I’ll feel my other coworkers out. There’s only one other who hasn’t been participating in the ongoing office jokes, but she does have more standing than I do so her support would be helpful.

    2. miyeritari*

      I’m totally with you, and you’re not overreacting. But if it doesn’t really seem like the “group” is taking your thought based on your personal opinions of how it comes across, could you find some other examples of “edgy” marketing and how it backfired?

      Alternately, if your job isn’t significantly hindered by this backfiring, you could also just let them step on the rake and suffer.

      1. Not All That Great Again*

        Examples are a great idea, thanks! I’d definitely feel more comfortable speaking out if I have data backing me up.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        +1. The statement itself is so cringey because of the racial aspects associated with it, not to mention the false premise. Basing an ad campaign around that is just going to alienate over half the country. No, you’re not over-reacting.

        1. Not All That Great Again*

          Thank y’all for validating my concerns. My sense of humor generally doesn’t mesh with the rest of my company and sometimes it’s hard for me to tell when I’m just not getting the joke vs. when it’s actually problematic.

    4. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t use it. I would probably think it was funny as an in-joke internally, but I wouldn’t use it for anything outward facing. Many people on both sides aren’t going to like it.

    5. Just a thought*

      Is your organization a 501c3? I’m not sure on the specifics, but I think any perceived political affiliations are not good with the IRS. You might be able to use that to get them to reconsider

      But yeah, being controversial when asking for money seems like a bad plan. In this case it seems like you could alienate people on both sides of the spectrum.

    6. Temperance*

      So we’ve occasionally used that slogan in a derogatory manner to talk about changes at some of the orgs we work with. In liberal circles, it’s kind of a slam.

      If a nonprofit used that as their slogan, I would 1.) eyeroll hard and 2.) not donate. Because I would feel like the judgement of the org is well, not great, and I wouldn’t want to support an org whose staff doesn’t have a whole lot of sense.

      1. caligirl*

        That’s a shame; any company or non-profit that would use that phrase would never ever see a penny from me (or the business I work for now or any place I ever work in the future).

    7. Argh!*

      I would worry that it seems childish. It would depend on the nature of the organization and its mission though.

  163. Mona Lisa Saperstein*

    I’m currently interviewing for a position I really want, and my interviews have gone well and the hiring manager has said they like me and think I’m a great fit. So yay! The thing is, when they asked what my salary was (which is illegal in CA now but lol no one told the entertainment industry), and then let me know that what I’m making now is higher than the range for the position. But this is a highly in-demand position and company that would be an entry point to an area of the industry that’s extremely, extremely hard to break into–plus, my current workplace is toxic and I need out–so I let the manager know that I’m extremely interested in the position/company and can be flexible on salary. I’m supposed to go back in next week.

    If I’m offered the position, I’m going to try and negotiate up a little bit, but I’ve never negotiated before (I’m currently in my first job out of college and they have always paid me shockingly fairly) and I really don’t want to risk losing the offer entirely when in reality I’ve been saving up for the last two years for exactly this situation. I’m willing to go down in salary for the long-term opportunities the job will give me, but I want to at least advocate for myself a little bit, even though I’m scared that they’d just be like “screw you there’s a line of applicants out the door that we could choose from.” I keep telling myself that if they pulled an offer because I tried to negotiate, they would be crazy and I wouldn’t want to work for them anyway. Which is true, right? Right??

    Does anyone have advice for a very anxious first-time negotiator who would honestly take this job for a bag full of non-magic beans?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Anyone who tries to punish you for negotiating won’t be nicer to you when they have more power over you.

      1. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

        This.

        Although since you’ve been busting your ass for two years trying to get in I know it’s going to be tempting to give in. I think negotiating a little bit is going to be OK. And yes, if their offer is insultingly low and they pull it when you try to negotiate, you dodged a bullet.

        Good luck!

        1. Mona Lisa Saperstein*

          Thank you both! In my head I know that no reasonable employer would withdraw an offer from a candidate for negotiating–it’s just hard because every other fiber of my being is like “PLEASE HIRE ME AND GET ME OUT OF HERE OH GOD.”

  164. Rae*

    New manager here, been working for several months with two direct reports. Does anyone know of any online or printed resources to give to an employee to help with developing good emotional intelligence? How to read others in an office environment/ how to show active listening or engagement/ how to tell when it is time to end a conversation, etc.

    We are all ladies in a small division of a much larger organization. I think that one of the reasons that this is coming up is because she is expected to already have these skills as a woman in her 30s, but she doesn’t seem to. I doubt I would be having this conversation with her if she was a dude, which is very frustrating but I want her to have all the opportunities she wants to have here, so I need to address it.

    I want to make it very clear that her reputation is damaged when she acts in ways that others find cold, off-putting, or when she seems to blurt out things in meetings that disregard the established culture or hierarchy. Others in the office have told me (and I agree) that it sometimes feels like she is on a totally different wavelength than the rest of us. She seems to be on the average side of things in every way as far as mental/ psychological traits besides this. She just seems to be out of step – sometimes a little, sometimes a lot – with the rest of us. She is great with our volunteers and this is only an issue 10% of the time. But when it comes up with members of the larger organization it is embarrassing for my boss.

    I am trying to practice my listening skills so I can limit frustration from both sides. But any resources that I can share with her to study are much appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      If you don’t really think it’s an issue, is it your boss who does? Can you push back on that for the very reasons you state (“I’m concerned that our expectations are being unfairly affected by gender here”)? Second, I think third-party reading materials could be useful, but even more helpful would be specific situations where she wrong-footed it with some examples of what would have been better, and an explanation that these are skills that are highly valued in this organization. That would help make it clearer what’s baby and what’s bathwater in any other materials she reads.

      1. GeneralKnowledge*

        Agreed that coaching might be the most helpful next step here, as if she is oblivious to these behaviors now, it’s not guaranteed that simply reading about EI will help her. Though sending reading material after such a conversation for additional context might be helpful! There are lots of Harvard Business Review articles about EI – Daniel Goleman’s writing comes to mind as a go-to.

        I also wonder if you could frame it as a way to support her in her goals, especially if she’s looking to cultivate leadership or management skills. If she’s already set goals recently, could this be incorporated into something she already identified as an area she would like to improve? If she hasn’t set goals recently, perhaps there is an opportunity to build this into that kind of conversation.

    2. Kathenus*

      Googling for online resources for active listening would be a great step, there are countless ones easily available. Also use very specific examples so that she can see real-life situations where things she’s said or ways she’s said them have been perceived negatively. It’s much easier to explain (for you) and understand (for her) actual situations that have occurred versus abstract concepts or theoreticals.

      And please re-think your perception that a ‘woman in her 30s’ should have these skills and that you wouldn’t have this problem if she ‘was a dude’. Some people are better at this than others. Some need coaching and mentoring to help them develop better communication skills and some don’t. Gender is not a factor in this. While it may affect how some people perceive this, the fact of people having weaknesses in these areas are not restricted to one gender or the other.

    3. Argh!*

      Why do women have to behave differently than a dude would? Perhaps your boss needs to be educated on what equality and diversity really mean.

    4. Thlayli*

      I think it might be with you setting aside some time to review sources of info and pick out the actual info you think is most relevant yourself, rather than just pointing her to lots of unrelated info. There’s a lot of emotional intelligence stuff out there and some of its contradictory. Figure out what it is you think she should do differently and tell her to do that specifically.

  165. AnonAndOn*

    I got a call from the temp agency this morning for a job that they said the employer wanted someone to start “as soon as Monday!” I doubt that’ll be the case, because it requires a background check that I spent two hours filling out (which asked for the last 10 years of employment and residential history) for this low-paying temp job, which I may or may not get. This job also wants a drug test done. You have got to be kidding me.

    When did temp agencies get so strict with their placement processes? When I used them in the past all I had to do was send a resume, fill out a basic application, and do those skills tests and I’d walk out with a job assignment. In these days it’s a complete 180. Between the phone interview I did for a temp job last week (that passed on me … the only way I found out about that one was when the temp agency contacted me regarding another job and I asked what happened to the one I interviewed for – I doubt I would’ve found out if I didn’t ask) and this thorough background check it is getting out of control.

    But my luck with applying to jobs on my own volition is not working out. I applied to two secretarial jobs at two different schools in the same county – my qualifications were identical but one immediately rejected me after its online pre-screen while the other said I was qualified. Ridiculous.

    Sigh.

    2. AnonAndOn*

      Just like I figured, the job would not start Monday due to the background check being processed. But I’m meeting with the contact at the employer Monday. I asked about the drug test (which was mentioned in the paperwork I filled out) and was told to disregard that since it was not necessary. Okay, cool.

      I just want this lengthy period of unemployment over with. I want to get back on my feet again.

  166. Chocolate Teapot*

    Had one of those days when a project is completed as far as possible, but input is required for some important points before it can be completed. All of a sudden, I got the “Urgent! This has to be done today to meet the deadline!” So I completed my tasks and then got the hachet job treatment from the manager who needed to provide the all-important sign-off. I had been asking for follow up for a while and never received anything, then the manager suddenly comes up with lots of things which need fixing urgently.

    Thank goodness for the weekend.

  167. JD*

    Vent time. My boss contradicts EVERY SINGLE THING I say. I am so exhausted with it. He will ask me a question and then say “no…” Then don’t flipping ask me!!! He will constantly ask me a general question then say no and google it. If I don’t know the answer to something I say that I do not know. This isn’t a trust issue for him. It just is the way he is. He would contradict me if I told him my birth date.

    I lost it earlier. He asked how my evening went and I mentioned good grabbed some yummy food at this new italian place. Basically recommending it, just a friendly convo. He right away comes back with “noooo, I think you ordered pizza”. I mean, why the FRACK would I lie about what I am eating for dinner??? I didn’t scream at him but I for sure kind of went off and told him that there is no reason to ask me a question if he is going to contradict every single thing I say and that I know dang well what I had for dinner.

    We have a fairly casual relationship as we are the only two in the office so it isn’t a big deal that I said this to him, professionally speaking and perhaps that casual behavior is why he thinks he can contradict everything but regardless I am going to flipping throttle him next time. I really cannot handle ONE MORE CONTRADICTION!! AHHH.

    A vent, not really looking for advice, unless you have tips on the best desktop object to throw at someone’s head.

    1. fposte*

      That would definitely drive me crazy. I’m also kind of curious about what drives this and if he does it to everybody, and given that you seem to have a fairly comfortable relationship I might even ask him sometime.

      1. JD*

        I asked him why in that moment. He said “well if you’re upset then I am right and you weren’t telling the truth”. No I am upset because if you don’t SHUT IT soon I will kill you, then go to jail and that’ll suck. hahaha.

        He really gave me no answer just that I must only be upset because he is right. Massive eye roll.

        1. fposte*

          No, I mean sometimes when you’re hanging out, not when everybody’s already fired up, say “Bob, you know the thing where you just knee-jerk contradict me about everything? What are you looking for there? It seems like you really want other people to be wrong, which is kind of weird when you’re paying them. Do you hope I’m always wrong?”

        2. Havarti*

          “well if you’re upset then I am right and you weren’t telling the truth”
          There’s a terrible part of me that’s impressed he hasn’t been found floating face-down in a roadside ditch yet. My dad is obnoxious like that and sometimes I get sucked into his nonsense when I’m tired or annoyed. Otherwise, I try not to say anything and limit my responses to distracted “mm-hmm”s while doing something else to make it clear I’m not taking the bait.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I grew up with sibs and acquaintances like this–nerd world is full of them. I do find that it’s usually some kind of really dysfunctional defense mechanism and that talking curiously to them when they’re not feeling defendy can sometimes be a way in with the “This is actually pretty weird–what’s up with this?” It also serves as a callback point when it comes up in the heat of something–“Remember when we talked about that defensive contradicting thing? This is what I meant”–but it’s a lot tougher with a boss.

            1. Havarti*

              I considered the stapler too but I think the tape dispenser has more heft to it if you’re looking for a projectile. :D

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      Ouch. I completely hear you on this driving you flipping nuts!
      What toppings did you have on your imaginary pizza?

      1. JD*

        Oh speaking of topping I went to this (other) italian place by my house the other day and their specialty pizza was spicy pepperoni, arugula, sweet corn and zucchini. OMG. It may sound a bit odd but it was the most amazing thing I have eaten in years. Apparently they have it every now and then for a special. I cannot wait until next time.

        1. Teapot Librarian*

          I don’t eat meat on my pizza, but I totally see the pepperoni and arugula together. Not as sure about the corn and zucchini, but unlike your boss, I believe you that you liked it.

          1. JD*

            hahahaha I am cracking up. I wasn’t sure about the corn and zucchini either but somehow it is magic. Darnit now I do actually want pizza.

    3. LCL*

      My partner didn’t tell me he had been promoted to being your boss…
      It is how they make conversation, it is a behavior they learned in their family. It is a mildly snarky way of engaging, sometimes it is trying to cause conflict and sometimes it isn’t. A kinda passive-aggressive way to verbally fence and turn every conversation into a recreational argument.
      In the workplace? Ask him every time he contradicts you, in your best puzzled voice ‘why did you say I had pizza? I had lasagna. Now I’m confused.’ Eventually he will stop.
      At home I say ‘I’m not your brother, knock it off.’

      1. JD*

        This is a good idea and yes I agree with your point about the learned behavior. I think he finds the recreational argument fun, which, hey, I can too sometimes, but not with every word that comes out of my mouth obviously.

        I am going to start saying the confused thing.

    4. AnonAndOn*

      I don’t have advice but I feel this guy’s behavior is bizarre. If it were me I’d likely give a weird face and reply, “Okay…”

      So weird.

      1. Effie, who is herself, and is moving forward without self judgement*

        I think I’d say “Uh-huh. Anyway, [continues original conversation as if he hadn’t rudely contradicted].”

        Bizarre is the word!

        1. AnonAndOn*

          I like that. It’s a way of disregarding the boss’s rude behavior and keeping it on the topic at hand.

  168. Llama Wrangler*

    I asked about this in last week’s open thread, but sort of late in the game and didn’t get any responses. Does anyone have tips about asking for a title change when the issue is the title’s misalignment with your work, rather than a change in responsibilities? I spoke with my boss about it and she seems supportive, but thinks since I’m not asking for a promotion*, we need to “build a strong case” for HR, and I am not sure what that means.

    The longer version of this is my title is [Llama Wrangling] Associate, and my job involves managing and developing all of the Llama Wrangling for my team. In the Llama field, the Associates are often low-level administrative positions. Most people in my position would be Llama Wrangling Manager or Director of Llama Wrangling. But in my broader corporation, [Animal] Managers are the administrative ones, and my boss thinks HR won’t go for Director of Llama Wrangling without classifying it as a promotion (even though there are a lot of Animal Directors or Director of Animals across the corporation). I found plenty of job descriptions to show that Associates are usually low level, but I’m not sure if that will be a strong enough case.

    Any thoughts?

    * (I am not asking for a promotion because we have zero money for raises and HR likely won’t approve a promotion without money in the budget for a raise; also, my current job responsibilities do closely match what is listed in the position, and there’s no real room for that to change based on how our team is structured.)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Can you find the org charts for other Llama companies and show the disparity in titles?

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks! That’s my best guess for what will work. But most of those Llama Companies don’t have publicly posted job descriptions, and my sense is that our (somewhat dysfunctional) HR department will say that in lieu of job descriptions, they can’t know that the org charts are analogous.

        Does anyone have any ideas for title descriptors besides Manager, Director, Associate, and Coordinator?

        1. GeneralKnowledge*

          I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I was a Llama wrangling manager, but would be taking on the responsibility of managing other “Llama wrangling managers.” I pushed for a director level title (associate director of llama wrangling), since all other people in my organization who managed other managers were directors, but my org didn’t go for it. They eventually settled on “Senior llama wrangling manager” to indicate seniority above other managers. Maybe something to try!

    2. Overeducated*

      No advice but commiseration. I am actually waiting to find out whether my boss’s boss’s boss (our division head) will approve a similar title change for me. The issue in my case is I am not a permanent employee in the org chart, so my title is pretty made up anyway, and people I will be competing against with similar responsibilities in other organizations DO have Manager titles. I have gotten it through two levels of hierarchy and if it is not approved based on the head’s whim of the day, I feel like it will really hurt my job search.

  169. Thany*

    After the last couple of months of searching and 5 interviews, my most recent interview is checking with my references. I am tentatively hopeful, but also trying not to get too hopeful. I’ve been very unhappy at my current position (overworked, little pay, difficult population) to the point where I’m concerned for my mental health (even though I have never struggled with mental health issues before). This new position would be an amazing opportunity and better pay. My concern is that it requires a federal background check where they emphasized how incredibly detailed it is. Does anyone know how long that process takes? I am wondering how soon I can resign from my current job (especially considering how much it negatively impacts me). I should note I can’t afford to quit altogether, especially since my husband and I recently moved to an a more expensive apartment.

    1. I get that*

      Wait till the background check is done. Without knowing the job/agency and your employment and residential history this could take quite a while. Like months versus weeks.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      You need to be emotionally and financially prepared for the clearance process to take months. According to a Sep. 12, 2017 article in Business Insider, at the federal level in the Defense Department, “secret” clearances take 4 months, “top secret” clearances take 9-10 months. An interim clearance *might* be granted that would allow you to go to work on less-sensitive projects, but don’t hold your breath. Even after signing a COE (Conditional Offer of Employment), if iI were you, I wouldn’t give notice until I had gotten notified by the hiring agency POC that an interim clearance had been granted. Best of luck. Waiting is so hard.

  170. Joey*

    Anyone in HR care to give me some advice on entering the field? I have a BA in an unrelated field (psychology). No office or HR experience, but I think I have some good transferable skills from my years of customer service and mental health. I’ve been considering going back to school for either a human resources associate degree or business management diploma. Is one more advantageous than the other?

    What about gaining work experience to work my way up? I have been applying for temp roles doing administrative work, a position as a recruiter at a staffing agency, and I have the opportunity to apply for a management position at my old retail job. Are any of these better paths for me to take?

    1. JD*

      I find that temping is a good way to go. A position that would have you doing at least some HR work. Then that can easily transfer to an HR position later on. I am not sold on needing the HR degree although over time some training/classes are always good.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      HR is such a broad field that it really depends on what you want to do. If you’re not looking to do recruiting/hiring long term, I’d probably skip the recruiter at the staffing agency role and focus on management or administrative experience because that’s what a lot of back end HR is.

  171. Too old?*

    TLDR: thought on applying for a “New Grad” position when you aren’t exactly a new grad

    I am looking to change not just industries but my actual job. Let’s say I have a degree in Hot Beverage Engineering and I work as a teapot engineer but want to be a coffee cup engineer. So I have the right degree but not so related experience. Is it a waste of time to apply to “new grad” positions because I basically have no experience in the subject matter? Do you think it makes me look bad/people will discount me if I do apply to one of these positions? I graduated 4 years ago for context.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I have interviewed some engineers and project managers who are changing industries. Most of them have been in the ~10 year range. In our offers, we give them credit for ability to learn quickly and for their transferrable skills (which are not as many as you think), but we still can never match their salary expectations. I really do hear you when you say you want to change industries, but even people who were adamant in their interviews that they hated what they were doing (for example, a project engineer who was really filling out gov project paperwork all day), they didn’t want to take the step back a few levels in title or pay.

      The only advice I would offer is to really be clear on what it would be like to start over, and whether you could really deal with it, and to keep in mind that employers have been burned by industry-changers so you have some barriers to overcome.

  172. Puzzled*

    Hi all,
    I need some advice. I have an employee who had a death in the family last week. As their manager I did purchase a card to have signed by our small department. The staff member who suffered the loss does not get along with another member of the department and I noticed that this other member of the department did not sign the sympathy card. Because there are so few of us, it will stand out that this person did not sign it. Obviously, signing the card should be optional but in the instance, I want to press this person to sign the card to avoid being callous to a grieving party. As their manager, do can I ask person to sign the card? How would I do that?
    Thanks of the help!

    1. Samata*

      If someone I didn’t like didn’t sign a card I don’t think I’d really be caring at the point I received it. I might not even notice in the case of a death in the family. And if I did notice I’d probably know they did it out of obligation, so I’d say let it go.

    2. helper*

      Take it to the ungracious employee and say something like ‘I think you’ve forgotten to sign this card’. If you take it to her, as her manager, she will be too embarrassed to not sign. If she refuses there’s nothing you can do but someone that callous sounds horrific.

      1. Kismet*

        I have to say, if you did that to me I’d refuse to sign just on principle. You don’t force condolences (or congratulations) out of people.

    3. Beancounter Eric*

      Leave it alone.

      They may simply not want to sign.

      How is the presence or absence of coworkers signature on this condolence going to impact the business?

    4. Havarti*

      Using your power as manager to try to make someone sign a card it perhaps not the best use of said power. As you said, signing the card is optional. My dept. is bigger so it’s harder to track who signs or doesn’t but sometimes people are out that day.

    5. fposte*

      Please don’t do that. It would make it clear that it’s not optional, whatever you say, to sign the card, and who wants a condolence that a manager had to require somebody to make?

    6. Kathenus*

      Please don’t. Just send it on with the signatures that you have. That’s supporting your employee that’s grieving and respecting your other employee’s decision to not sign. It’s great that you did this, suggest just sending it as is.

    7. Colette*

      I think it depends on whether they were directly asked to sign the card, or whether it was put somewhere for signing.

      If they were directly asked, I’d say send it as is. If not, I’d ask them directly if they wanted to sign. (I’m in the “not signing a condolence card is pretty callous” camp so I would also be on the lookout for how/if it affects her relationship with the coworker – they don’t have to be best friends, but they should be able to civilly work together, so if this makes things worse, a discussion may be necessary.)

    8. Thlayli*

      I think your employee was right not to sign the card. If I was grieving I wouldn’t want to see a signature from someone I had mutual hate for. I also don’t think I would sign a card for someone if we didn’t get on. I would assume that seeing my signature would upset them more than console them, and I wouldn’t want to do that to anyone who was grieving, even if I didn’t like them.
      So you have some reason to believe your grieving employee would actually WANT a signature from their enemy?

      1. Colette*

        I see it the other way – the grieving employee looks at the card, notices the colleague didn’t sign, and it’s one more reason not to like them.

      2. nonegiven*

        I’d feel like I’d have to throw out the card instead of keeping it with the others, to avoid seeing their name and reminding me of them inserting themselves into my grief.

        1. Thlayli*

          That’s how I’d feel. I wouldn’t want to even see their name when I’m upset it would feel like they were intruding on my private grief.

    10. nonegiven*

      If I didn’t like someone and knew they didn’t like me, I’d be more insulted by them signing the card than not signing. I would feel like they signed AT me instead of out of a workplace obligation.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      As a recipient of such a card, I would assume the people who signed it did so because they wanted to. I may or may not notice who did not sign however, if I did notice an absent signature I would not be surprised nor would I be bothered. It’s small potatoes.

  173. Evie*

    Does anyone have advice for dealing with external recruiters on Linkedin? From time to time I get messages from recruiters at staffing agencies about positions they’re looking to fill. These recruiters usually give some kind of vague information, such as the position title and whether or not it’s a contract, but they never say the company the position is for or give job specifics. If I reply expressing interest, they always ask me to send them my resume and a time to talk. I really don’t feel comfortable sending my resume when I don’t even know what the position is, so I always ask them to send job specifics first. I have never heard back from a recruiter after that.

    Am I missing out on opportunities by not immediately sending these recruiters my resume? It feels wrong to do that when I can’t personally make sure my resume fits the position. But I’m also on my first full-time job post-college, so it’s not like there’s all that much tailoring I can do, and maybe I shouldn’t be so protective of my resume.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Recruiters aren’t going to disclose the name of the company because then you can go and apply on your own.

    2. Undine*

      You will talk to the recruiter before they send anything to the job. Part of what they want is to just see your resume and see if you fit anything they have. The resume will help them frame that talk.

  174. Hedgehog*

    Does anyone have any advice about how to discuss going on temporary/short term leave with your boss? My org has only a very basic policy/procedure manual and all it says in that section is that a doctor’s note is required… I’ve talked to my doc and I know they’ll work with me, but I’m struggling with how to approach my manager about it.

    1. Samata*

      I only have experience doing this when a health concern/issue is already known to the manager because of previous surgery and ongoing deterioration. Is this the case with you? it can also depend on your relationship with your boss, because I have had some where what I am going to suggest I would not do.

      A few days prior to next doctor appointment can you approach boss and say “I’ve been dealing with an issue and my doctor is really concerned about how my work is affecting my ability to give attention to the issue at hand. I have a feeling on this next visit he is really going to push taking time off. I wanted to give you a heads up.” Then when you come in with a note he will at least have a few days notice and not be blind sided. I know some docs write you out effective immediately and that could soften the first reaction.

    2. fposte*

      Are you in the U.S., and are you eligible for FMLA? If so, they might require you file paperwork for that.

  175. The OG Anonsie*

    Here’s a new one. I was reading Dear Prudence, and the woman writing in is talking about a coworker she hates. At some point a new employee had a death in the family, and this coworker didn’t sign the sympathy card on the grounds that she didn’t really know this other employee at all. The woman writing in said she was too “small-souled” to bother with basic human decency in signing the card and called her a a monster. As far as I can tell from the letter, everyone hates this other employee because she keeps mostly to herself, and this is the only specific action given as an example of how purportedly terrible she is. The woman writing in wants to exclude her from the usual little niceties they do for people around birthdays, life events, etc. on the grounds that the coworker is a horrible person who doesn’t deserve it. She excluded her once and the other coworker was upset about it, and the letter writer wants to know if it’s ok to keep excluding her or if she now has to quit doing anything for anyone on the grounds that she refuses to do such things for the coworker.

    I… Have always avoided signing cards for people I don’t really know. And not like, I work with them but I don’t know them personally, but people I have literally not interacted with except maybe to say hi in the hallway. Sympathy cards seem so extremely personal to me that I wouldn’t want to put in even a boilerplate “I’m sorry for your loss” if the two of us haven’t actually interacted at all. I know it probably wouldn’t upset anyone if I did, but I also sort of assumed it wouldn’t upset anyone if I didn’t and I feel more comfortable not doing it.

    Am I being a turd without realizing it, or is this letter writer’s group a lil pack of mean girls with solitary coworker being the unfortunate odd one out? My immediate reaction is the latter, but now I’m questioning my opting-out from various cards over the years.

    2. Samata*

      I would need to know more but it really sounds to me like the LW in this instance is fishing a bit here. Keeping to yourself and no offering fake condolences doesn’t make you a turd. I keep to myself mostly at work and at times have been called standoffish and a bit@h, but I just don’t like to mix personal and work too much, other than surface pleasantries and a lunch now and then mostly out of obligation.

    3. Amber Rose*

      That is an extreme over thinking of things among all parties, IMO. It’s not such an egregious offense to not sign a sympathy card, to me. But (with the caveat that things may be different in your location) things like sympathy cards are usually considered quite… impersonal? Like, not nearly so personal as you seem to believe. It’s more just a general expression of sympathy that the person has encountered some bad stuff. Kind of like how a Congratulations on the New Baby card is a general acknowledgement that someone is happy, rather than a legit expression of joy over the baby.

      So, because it’s such a minor thing, to deliberately not sign could cause the kind of feeling that you dislike the person so much, you aren’t even sorry that something awful just happened to them. It would seem pretty icy.

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        Assuming you actually know the person, yeah it would seem weird to refuse to sign a card. For someone you genuinely do not know, I would think that neither signing nor not signing the card would stand out any way or another and neither option would come off as a statement?

        So then, being that I assume neither action will send any message at all, it’s just down to whether I feel weird doing it or not. And I do, so I take the not signing option. If I thought people would actually notice and find it to be a hurtful statement then I’d just sign the thing and not worry about it?

    4. Temperance*

      Cards aren’t really personal. I would see someone refusing to sign one, unless they were a JW and had religious objections, as a statement that they don’t care. I remember that Dear Prudence letter, and while I found the LW a tad annoying, I thought that her colleague was really aggressive.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yeah, I don’t see signing a group card expressing sympathy as “extremely personal”.

        Sending your own to someone you barely know would be weird, sure, but in this context, I would feel like it was fairly callous. Though if I were the one receiving the card, I likely would assume that if Suzy hadn’t signed, it was because she wasn’t in that day or something. I doubt I would assign malicious intent.

    5. Havarti*

      Given Puzzled’s dilemma above of trying to get an unsympathetic coworker to sign a card, I find this rather timely. I sign cards at work because it’s expected of me and a brief “congratulations!” or “sorry for your loss” costs very little to me. But everyone is different and I’m not the most empathetic of individuals some days.

      I didn’t go to the funeral of someone in my department who I barely knew and I was told afterwards I should have gone anyway. Still feel a bit guilty about it years later but I really didn’t want to sit like a lump in the middle of church while everyone else was crying. I went to my late supervisor’s funeral and mourned the loss but it was someone important to me. Funerals as a spectator sport aren’t my thing. And if not going got me labeled a monster, oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I wouldn’t expect any of my coworkers to mourn me if I kicked the bucket prematurely.

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        I feel like Puzzled’s problem is really different because those two employees actually do know each other. If I actually know the person, I’ll sign whatever. It’s when you don’t actually know them that it seems optional.

        Then I also see myself feeling weird if I’m the not-getting-along coworker. I’d feel like either thing is going to be uncomfortable: If I don’t sign it, I look like I’m being an asshole. If I do, then there’s the big stupid name of someone that person doesn’t like on an otherwise nice gesture. Gah.

        1. Havarti*

          Yeah, that one is messy. No matter what you do – force them to sign, leave it unsigned, buy a whole new card and sign it “from [manager’s name] and folks in Dept. X” – it’s bound to anger someone.

          If no one has called you a monster or actively ignored you for not signing cards, you’re probably ok. If you were in such a small department, it’s unlikely you’d be a Gretel anyway because you would know the people better.

    6. Kismet*

      I generally don’t sign cards because I find them annoying – both to receive and to give, especially when there’s any kind of social or other pressure to sign involved – but I also don’t care if people think I’m being mildly rude in doing so.

      I will say, like most things, whether it’s rude not to sign and how rude it seems when you don’t sign depends on the culture. Some places I’ve been it’s a huge deal to not sign the office card, and in other places I’ve worked, most people don’t even take note of who does or does not sign unless the nonsigner makes a big to-do about it.

    7. copy run start*

      I would say sign the card. It only takes a few moments of your time, and yes, the other person probably knows you don’t care much, but the damaging optics if your signature is missed are not worth it. A signature costs nothing. For people I don’t know, I just sign. If it’s someone I sorta know or they’re a VP, I add in a stock line (congrats/sorry for your loss/thinking of you). If it’s a friend, I’ll write something more personal. But really it’s little things like this that people take note of that can bite you later. Gretel is a good example of why it’s worth it to just go with the flow sometimes.

      As for the letter, if you take on the job of officially recognizing everyone’s special events in the office, you truly need to do it for everyone or people will end up disliking you! I had that role at a previous job, and while I chafed at sending birthday messages to people I disliked, I knew it was part of the job and that they deserved to be treated the same as everyone else. There will always be office “in” groups and outcasts, but we can at least refrain from creating or reinforcing them when given the opportunity. Gotta be the bigger person, golden rule, etc. etc.

  176. Just wondering*

    Question for those who work in libraries:

    When you fill out a survey that asks your occupation or industry, what do you choose? So often “library” is not a category. Sometimes I say management (since I was a manager), sometimes I say government, if that is one of the choices, sometimes I say customer service, sometimes even education, if it’s the closest fit.

    Question for those who design surveys:

    Why isn’t “library” a choice in these surveys? There seem to be so many of us who work there. Can we get our own category, please?

    (Question prompted by taking the Harvard implicit bias survey. Apparently I slightly prefer whites over blacks (for what, it didn’t say) and Islam over Judaism, which surprised me.)

  177. Gaia*

    Hi there! So update on the “do another job for a few months and then maybe you’ll have a job at the end” situation.

    I was officially offered secondment through June with a guarantee of an “equitable position” at the end of that time frame. My boss’s boss seems irritated that I’m taking this role but…I don’t know what to say. yes, it moved quickly. Yes, the timing isn’t exactly great for the department. But also? I’ve been telling everyone who will listen for more than a year that I want this. This is what I want to do long term. Luckily, boss’s boss’s boss seems happy for me (and I still report to her, directly now actually).

    But: added wrinkle. My boss is on vacation for 3 weeks and before she left she told my staff about this change (I was asked to let her do it and follow up with them later – I hate that). She told them I would be back in a week. In no way will I be back in a week. In reality, unless something drastic changes, I won’t be returning to that role at all. I’ve asked her boss to clarify so the staff isn’t confused but…again, the grandboss is irritated about the whole thing so who knows.

    Opinion: am I okay to tell my staff what I know about my position? Not necessarily that I won’t be coming back but that I won’t be back in a week and how to get support in the meantime.

  178. GeneralKnowledge*

    Question about networking/job hunting for you all:

    I applied to a more junior role at an education non-profit organization I admire and respect in June. (I’m moving across the country and am finding it more difficult than expected to find a role similar to one I have now…figured working at an org I like is a good start!) I got to the second round of interviews, but didn’t get the role and although I asked for feedback, I never learned why. Around the same time, I reached out to a former grad school professor who is now in my new city, asking if he had any recommendations about organizations to check out in new city, since we’re in the same field. Out of nowhere, he emailed me back this morning, recommending the same organization I was rejected from in June, and connected me with the head of the department I am interested in via email. She didn’t interview me back in June, so likely doesn’t know I applied for the role. She was very kind in her response and recommended I send my resume to someone in her department.

    I am really grateful for my professor for introducing me to the head of the department, and of course want to follow up with her, but I don’t really know how to approach this since given my earlier rejection. Any advice for how to move forward?

    1. Startup Hell Lisa*

      It’s not that unusual for companies to hire a previously rejected candidate who got to a second round, there are often just more qualified people than there are openings! Especially for a nonprofit they may just be understaffed w/ no resources to send feedback to rejected candidates, which is kinda a bummer but not totally unexpected.

      I’d write something like this:

      “(Department Head),

      So great to meet you by email! I would love to share my resume with (Other Person) for consideration. I’ll shoot her an email right now.

      By the way, I was actually a candidate for (Role) a while back, but ultimately the team chose to move forward with a different hire. I don’t think (Former Professor) was aware of that background, so I wanted to fill you in now that we are connected. I really enjoyed interviewing with (Organization) and am very interested in future opportunities with the team!”

      1. GeneralKnowledge*

        This is so helpful! Thank you for putting this into words that make sense outside of my head :)

  179. Kei*

    I just need to vent after coming back from medical leave for a broken bone. I’ve since had to leave twice for the Doctor for an ENT problem, now I think a filling has just come out and on top of this…I just got an unexpected job interview. I don’t know how I will balance all this.

  180. Startup Hell Lisa*

    Working on finally making my exit from Evil Behemoth that bought Bizarro Startup.

    Any tips from folks who’ve quit without something lined up? I am leaving as a result of illegal & unethical activity by the company that my role forces me to be involved in, so I don’t really feel comfortable trying to stay long enough to find another job, when I do have savings enough to be fine for several months. I’m also severely burned out from dealing with this and won’t interview as well as I normally do right now – I’ve been rejected from a couple of jobs and feel like it’s coming through in my interview styles that I am an emotional wreck from this acquisition.

    I’ve literally never taken a break from full-time work since I was 12. Every summer and even every winter break I was working as many hours as possible (ranch/agricultural labor) as a teen, I never went away to college (finished my degree online while working for a Fortune 500), I never took a sabbatical… I literally don’t know how to fill my days without work. I haven’t taken more than 4 days off (counting the weekend) in 3 years.

    WHAT DO I DO???!?!?!?!

    Tips on recovering from burnout accepted too.

    Wish I could get some severance in exchange for an NDA, since I don’t plan to report the company (it’s civil-illegal stuff not criminal-illegal and no real upside to being the one to blow the whistle) but I don’t think that will happen.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Clean your house. At least, start there. Organize things. When I left without something lined up, I was severely stressed out for a couple of days, then I needed something to accomplish. I kind of miss those days, where everything was in order. I also started baking a ton, which helped me focus on projects that needed time; my schedule often revolved around rising bread dough.

      Volunteer. Read. Lie in a dark room with the lights off. What do you like to do that you often find difficult or frustrating when it’s crowded? Like, movies or museums or even just grocery shopping when everyone else is at work. Go to yoga. Go to the gym. Or take a walk in a park. After a month or two of that, with some interviews sprinkled in, I also started working a retail job. It allowed me to set a routine and do a job that I left at the end of every shift, no pressure. I started my current job with a mostly clean slate, though I had to start therapy because the after-effects were so overwhelming.

      Good luck!

    2. Beancounter Eric*

      For at least a week, do nothing. Relax, catch up on reading, get out of town, whatever….just take some time and unwind.

      Then, and only then, bring your job search back up.

      As for burnout, time off should help. New York Magazine has a great article from about 10 years ago – http://nymag.com/news/features/24757/ – which is worth reading.

      Good luck!!

      1. GeneralKnowledge*

        I am the type of person who gets anxious when I have too much down time looming ahead, especially when coming off of a very busy time at work like it sounds like you are. So, when I quit my job last week, I made myself a schedule during work hours to make the transition feel more “normal.” To second AvonLady’s points, many of my “to-do’s” were self care items I’d previously been putting off, things like finding a way to exercise each day and cooking actual meals for breakfast and lunch (the luxury!), and also included more practical things like job hunting. It made me feel productive to check things off my list, and that feeling helped me stay positive during a tough transition. Best of luck to you!!

    3. Undine*

      Structure helps. In addition to volunteering, consider a class at a local community college or adult school, a regular meetup, hiking group, knitting group, book club, anything that meets regularly and doesn’t cost too much. If you’ve done work on a ranch, you might think if you want to spend some of this time getting back to your physical roots and do some kind of volunteer work that gets you outside and that you can’t do while working full time. (Or you might hate that stuff. And it’s winter, not so much where I live, but if it snows, that won’t work as well.)

  181. Anonymouse*

    I got fired back in September and just had my first interview yesterday. It didn’t go well because I stumbled on the “what happened to your last position?” question. I answered I was let go because organizational restructuring and for “corporate reasons”. It’s a long winded story of my former manager having disliked me and my higher supervisors not giving me any concrete benchmarks to reach during my time on the job. I worked really hard and switched projects to just one manager who thought I improved myself during my time there but I was still let go.

    What should I have said to the interviewer about why I left my last job?

    1. AnonAndOn*

      I feel that saying “I was let go due to organizational restructuring” should work. I feel that saying “for corporate reasons” gives the interviewer a reason to fish and push for more information.

    2. Kathenus*

      It’s also really helpful to practice your response, out loud, until it becomes comfortable to say it. Good luck!

    3. Colette*

      Was there a restructuring? Because if not, that’s a bad answer. Your answer needs to be true. So, for example. “It wasn’t a good fit and I was let go. Restructuring meant I was moved to a team focusing in X, but my strength lies in Y.”

    4. Argh!*

      I actually did lose a job due to restructuring. It happens to a lot of people. You don’t have to give any details about your relationship with your boss there. (You don’t have to give the details of your relationships with any bosses!)

      In your final assignment you could have been “last hired, first fired” so there ya go. If you have trouble giving short answers, you can dwell on how much you loved the work and how much you learned there.

    5. Anonymouse*

      I got advice from someone else that I should go on the offensive/defensive and tell the interviewer that I found out that my position had had a high turnover rate because they didn’t value their employees and the corporate culture there was toxic, and it was even acknowledged by the one good manager I had. All of that is true, but does it put me in a bad light too, or is there a better way to convey this? That no matter how hard and well I worked, they probably were going to get rid of me, or get me to a point where I had no choice but to quit, just like my predecessor?

      1. Colette*

        I’d not be impressed by that answer – or by the concept of going on the offence. This isn’t a fight. It’s a discussion for both sides to see if they’d work together well.

      2. Gaia*

        Noooo do not go on the offensive/defensive. Criticizing a former employer really shouldn’t be done in an interview. It might all be completely true but the interviewer doesn’t know that and I’ve never had a really strong candidate do that.

        Stick to the facts, practice it until you can say it blandly, and talk (briefly) about what you learned. As in “I was let go because it turned out the project/role wasn’t a good fit for my skills and I wasn’t at the level they needed (or whatever reason you were given, if more specific). I’ve really refocused on [developing skill X/better understanding how my skills in Y translate into Z].

  182. Fancy Pants*

    What are people’s takes on company phones? I currently use my personal phone for work. This isn’t typically an issue, except during hurricane Irma, I had to use my phone’s hot spot (and therefore data) to publish emergency updates to our website and social media. That forced me over my data plan with two weeks before it reset. My phone company doesn’t cut you off or charge extra, they just throttle your data, so your phone becomes just a phone again, lol. Needless to say, it was irritating (to me and my 6 yo!), but not the end of the world.

    It did get me thinking about if it’s worth it to ask for a company phone. During the hurricane, I could NOT have done my job if I did not have a hotspot. Others on my team either had no hotspots or did not know how to do updates. I brought it up to my team and got a sort of “…eh…” response.

    Does it make sense to push for a company phone and take all my work apps off my personal phone (and be able to NOT share my personal cell with students and staff)? Or do I figure I use my personal phone for about 10% work related things (not counting my email!) and just leave it be?

    1. Beancounter Eric*

      I refuse to use my personal phone for work purposes. Biggest thing here is email, and our IT department rather pointedly notifies users in their setup instructions that they can and will remote wipe the phone.

      Additionally, I’m of the view that if you want me to have remote access, remote email, etc., then provide me with the tools and the data plan. Some of that may be driven by some dissatisfaction with my current position, though….

      1. Graciosa*

        I’m not dissatisfied with my current position, but I still hold the views you expressed. If the company wants me to do those things, they need to provide me with the equipment and pay for it. As far as the company is concerned, I don’t have any cell phone other than the one issued to me.

        I will add that as a manager, I hold the same philosophy. There are some people who work for me who don’t qualify for company phones (only issued to certain levels as a matter of policy). That means that the company does not consider it necessary for them to respond to after-hours calls or emergencies, which in turn means that they do NOT need to share personal contact information with internal customers or be available after office hours.

        Some had in the past, and I shut it down. I’m sure that they meant well, but anyone who didn’t receive a company-provided phone is *completely* off duty outside of normal office hours.

    2. Nanc*

      Maybe get a department mobile phone that can be checked out to use in emergencies, when folks have to travel, etc. Disasters gonna happen, right? Might as well plan ahead.

    3. Argh!*

      How often do you all have to use your company phones? And how often do you have natural disasters?

      1. Thlayli*

        Exactly this. If it’s a one-off, just move on, but if you anticipate the need for a company phone again in the future, ask for one.

  183. Stop Emailing Me*

    I don’t know WHY anyone thinks they can email someone with RANDOM words in CAPS thinking they are going to GET what they want immediately :)

    I actually meant to write this in last Friday, when this lady initially emailed me. She has put off responding to me for months, yet expects my cooperation immediately after I have repeatedly told her the steps she needs to take in order to move forward? I actually do respond to all “clients” (including her) very quickly, but after that crap she was convieniently moved to the end of the work pile. I got back to her today.

    (Don’t worry, the work is not time sensitive or anything major like that. It’s actually on the client to do all the work and we just validate things.)

    Sometimes I wish I could respond, “Here ya go, asshole!” But…you know…professionalism.

    1. Stop Emailing Me*

      I realize my initial vent wasn’t that clear…this lady has been so incredibly rude and hostile to me. I wasn’t just being a dick and ignoring her because of a petty email. I’ve been putting up with her abuse for months and decided to just take care of her at a later time when I didn’t feel like she was crushing my soul. Heh.

  184. Perpetuum Mobile*

    I am sorry if I am asking something that’s already been discussed or mentioned but I did a quick search of AAM and didn’t see the answer.

    The question is, if I am currently unemployed and actively job searching, does it really make sense to put my whole resume on LinkedIn. I have a profile with names of companies I worked for and years of tenure, education, professional affiliations, etc. – pretty much everything but a detailed resume, i.e. listing my accomplishments and responsibilities for each job. Somehow it just doesn’t seem like the best or smart or appropriate (you choose the word) thing to do.

    Thanks for your opinion.

    1. miyeritari*

      I would include everything on your LinkedIn that you’d include on a resume – you wouldn’t want to include something on your LinkedIn and leave it off your resume and get an awkward question.

      Other than that, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t fill in your LI, other than it’s a pain in the butt to write it over and over. Can you tell more about why you don’t think it’s a good idea?

      1. Perpetuum Mobile*

        No, my resume definitely carries more information than my LinekdIn, so no way someone cap spot there anything that I didn’t put on the resume.

        As to why keep the resume info off my LinkedIn – I am not exactly sure. For whatever weird reason it just feels like going a bit overboard, I guess? Like, I saw Alison’s post that didn’t recommend that candidates post their resumes on job boards. Granted LinkedIn is no job board but I think my gut feeling is steering me towards the same approach. Which might not be ultimately the right thing to do, hence my question!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It depends on what you want out of LinkedIn. If you have the setting on to signal to recruiters that you’re actively searching and you’re hoping to make use of your network, then you should have more information available. As a recruiter, if I find you in a search and there’s nothing in your profile that stands out, I’m going to go to the next one and not reach out to you.

          1. miyeritari*

            What Amy said, yea. I’d say that if there were two Teapot Specialists, and one had “Improved teapot efficiency by 20%” on their linkedin and one didn’t, recruiter is probably more likely to contact the one that did.

            That being said, I don’t think it’s a hard and fast rule. Mine is very close to my resume because that seemed like a good idea at the time, but I think it’s basically personal preference.

    2. Here we go again*

      I only list titles and companies on my LinkedIn profile… My reason being is that I want to tailor my resume to fit the job I am applying for and emphasize certain responsibilities over others depending on the position. If I have everything on my LinkedIn and a prospective employer reviews it, they may question the details on my resume.

      I could see both sides of the argument, though.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I think of my LinkedIn resume as a summary or abbreviated version of my actual resume. Generally, more to get their interest at a glance but not the details.

  185. Lex*

    Hi all,

    I’m looking for advices on this situation.
    My team (team A) and another team (team B) are working jointly on a project. (I’m not a manager, just a team member).
    One day in the office, I overheard a member from team B giving some instructions to someone on team B saying “You need to do such and such, so that the ‘stupid team A people’ can’t mess it up”. I don’t know if he knew I was present because it was pretty late into the day(my cube is next to his, but there’s a high wall) or if he knew and just didn’t care.

    I’m very offended by this, and I’m wondering if I should bring this up with my manager? His manager? Or both?

    1. Havarti*

      I would mention it to your manager first and present it in terms of being worried about a possible conflict between the two groups interfering with the work, not that you were offended by a mean comment. I wouldn’t involve the other manager. Just say what you heard and let it be the manager’s problem. There’s always some strife when groups work together.

  186. Anymouse*

    So, I interviewed for a job in September, first with the recruiter (phone), then the hiring manager (face to face). I thought it went well. Next step was supposed to be a panel/presentation in front of the team. They were supposed to contact me within two weeks to let me know if I’m called for the presentation step or not. No news either way. Someone I know on the team told me they were still interviewing people. 5 weeks later, today, they sent me a feedback that says that while my experience is impressive, I have not been successful this time, bla bla, standard reply.

    This was for a senior-level position (although they said that depends on the applicant). For junior they have now hired two people (one last year, one right now) that not only do not have my experience level (of course) but that I have mentored in my current company, in a previous role. I’m a bit upset :( I did not ask for a lot of money either (the offer they gave the junior role was basically in the range I asked for, and over what the person asked for). I’m trying not to read too much into it/agonize over what might’ve gone wrong in the f2f but it’s kind of bringing me down. I was at least expecting them to call me for the 3rd round. :(

  187. He he hello*

    I applied for a position a few months ago that was taken down due to insecure funding. Applicants we’re emailed that the recruitment would be “re-activated” when funding was secured. Would it be bad form to email now indicating that I would still be interested, or should I just wait and see. It hasn’t been reposted, but the application period was nearly over when they pulled the job posting.

      1. He he hello*

        Yes, they just posted that their funding (the specific pool of funds in question) was approved for the next five years. This was posted as a general agency “hooray!” kind of thing and not in any way connected to the job posting.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Then I think it would make sense to drop a “congratulations on securing the funding” type note and let them know you are still interested if they’ll be hiring for that position.

  188. Daria Grace*

    We’ve been under a lot of stress at work lately. Mostly this manifests in people crying more than would be usual for an office. However, recently someone had a mental breakdown/psychotic episode at work so severe that an ambulance was called. Everyone is very concerned about him. Any tips for handling this when he comes back to work? I’m not afraid of him or judging him or anything like that, but I do want to act in a way that’s respectful and doesn’t exacerbate any stress or embarrassment he’s still feeling. Should I pretend like noting ever happened or bring it up and ask how he’s doing? If I should bring it up, any ideas for appropriate phrasing? If it makes a difference, I’m not his manager. I assume his manager will be following up as well.

    1. Clever Name*

      Wow. He had a psychotic break at work, presumably because of work stress. I sincerely hope he doesn’t return to your workplace. I’m sorry I have no advice.

    2. Kerr*

      I think a simple “good to see you back” would be sufficient. I wouldn’t ask how he’s doing; no one wants to answer that question for every single colleague. If he wants to discuss, it will probably be clear.

    3. copy run start*

      I had a coworker who was hospitalized for several weeks due to mental issues. While they didn’t break down in the office, everyone knew what was going on. Just treat him like you normally would when he returns unless/until you hear or are directed otherwise. I doubt he is going to want to discuss what happened unless you’re close, personal friends, but if he does, let him open that conversation up. He may even feel anxious about people treating him differently when he does return — I would! “Welcome back/Good to see you” should be enough to say. Expect to work with him as you did before unless somebody says otherwise.

      Also I really hope your company is taking steps to reduce stress in your workplace and provide people access to mental health resources!

      1. Daria Grace*

        Thanks for the good advice.

        The company have said they care about stress and mental health before but I’m not sure they really understood. As terrible as this incident was, I’m hoping some good comes out of it in them finally giving wellbeing the serious attention it deserves

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The few times I have seen this, the person did not come back. Their counselors advised them to change course. So your answer may be that this person does not return.

  189. Paul*

    we got a work email at 4:30pm announcing all the BS office holiday parties are going to be potluck this year.

    I’m debating burning PTO every day of those now. They do one at Thanksgiving, one around Christmas and another at New Years and uuugh. Usually only one of them involves an actual meal and in the past it’s been 50/50 on of it was catered or potluck. But apparently someone decided we needed to have a ton of potlucks. I’m not averse to the occasional one but 3 in 4 or 5 weeks is just not on.

    1. Paul*

      Between this and “steroids” this place is getting more dysfunctional by the month. Either that I’m just so ready to move on. Counting down the months.

  190. How do I get back on track?*

    I have a question about what to do when you fall off a good streak at work.
    I started a job a few months ago. My first four months I did pretty well. I got high praise on my first few projects and was generally making a good impression.
    Some things started falling off track a couple of months ago. Some mistakes here and there, I handed in a couple of reports that weren’t so well received, and a couple of other issues. I’ve had to be put back on supervision for a couple of projects for the first time since I started my job. I’ve spoken to my managers – they think everything should alright as long as I follow a couple of concrete steps (which I have been doing.) Their evaluation is that I’m good at the fundamentals of my job, but I need some fine tuning in producing the final products.

    I think everything should eventually be okay, too, but I’m worried I will never recover a good reputation. Has anyone ever experienced this/observed this in other employees? Will I ever go back to being a good employee again?
    (For some context, I’m a relatively junior employee and this is one of my first jobs.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that you should be okay. Keep going as you are, listening to their advice and using it.
      They know you can do the work. People do not help those who are hopeless cases. Try to understand that they still believe in you.
      Get plenty of rest and eat good meals. I think it takes anywhere for 6 months to a year to settle into a new place. This can get very tiring and can lead to mistakes. Use reminder notes, memory triggers and lists to keep yourself in the game.
      People with great reputations make mistakes. Part of the reason they have great reps is because of the way they handle their mistakes. 1) apologize. 2)offer to fix the mistake. 3) develop and share what you will do in the future to prevent making that mistake or a similar mistake.
      People think when they apologize that they lose a part of themselves. In reality they make themselves look like a bigger person.

  191. tigerStripes*

    Any suggestions for good web sites to get up-to-date on software development lingo? I’m a software developer who has been working at one place for a long time, and while job-searching, I’ve noticed some new jargon that I’m going to need to learn, and of course, I don’t know what jargon I haven’t run into yet that I should learn.

  192. Back to the office*

    After 3 years of working from home 80% of the time, I’ve accepted a 100% in office job. Any tips for returning to the office?! Eeek.

    1. buttercup*

      I was a work-from-home contractor for 7 months before getting my first office job. It will feel weird at first, but you will quickly get used to it – give it 2 weeks tops! One of the benefits of being human is that you’re super adaptable.

      Some things I experienced: I can’t do side personal stuff at will (if I had to, I would schedule doctor’s appointments and stuff in between work calls.) I also had one of those shitty nonprofit jobs, so I used my own phone for everything. Chances are, for a corporate job, you ~really should not~ use your personal phone for work (unless you want to end up in Hilary-type trouble.) Also, pants are mandatory (unfortunately.)

    2. This Daydreamer*

      Don’t talk to your coworkers in the same tone of voice that you use with your pets. Also, don’t use a squirt bottle on them.

      You will probably not be allowed to use a recliner as your office chair.

      People will expect you to talk to them. This can be annoying.

      Yeah, I got nothing. Good luck! Hope the new job is awesome!

    3. Anono-me*

      Congratulations on the new opportunity.
      You may find it helpful to change up your schedule to match the office schedule. For example, start getting up and getting ready for work like you would if you were going to have to commute to the office. Having your meals when you would when you’re at the office. Etc also a few practice commute in the mornings might be useful.

  193. Panda Bandit*

    I’ve got a situation.

    I work in a small family business. It is dysfunctional, toxic, and just plain weird. My bosses are married to each other and they own the business. The wife is really into the whole notion of how we’re all faaaamily and she has bad boundaries. I don’t like these people but I act professional at work so they don’t seem to realize it.

    A couple months ago, she said we should all go on vacation together. I would never want to do that. Last week, she said that she knew we were all going to be living together one day. I was completely thrown for a loop and I just laughed and said sure. I realize that probably didn’t help me but I was not expecting to hear that and I didn’t know how to react.

    What can I say next time she ventures into this topic? It is creeping me out and I like the idea of running away screaming, never to return, but I think I need a somewhat polite way to shut down her weird notions.

    2. Thlayli*

      It seems like she forgets you have a lifeboat outside work. Reference to your own life might help her remember that you are more than just her employee you also have a totally separate life. Like if she says “let’s go on vacation” you could say something like “I usually go on vacation with my college buddies” or whatever.
      However, there is a potential downside of giving the crazy person too much info about your life.

    3. Anono-me*

      That would feel very uncomfortable to me.

      I wouldn’t argue with the lady. I would just make vaguely positive non-committal mouth noises when she talks about theoretical nonspecific vacations or housing situations. Such as “Oh wow that’s really sweet.” or ” What a nice thing to say.” or “You’re such a thoughtful boss.” But I would be careful to avoid saying anything to indicate that you think it would great or fun or something to talk about next year.

      Hopefully it will all just stay a weird and vague idea in her head. If not, you already have vacation plans and you really love your current living situation

      Also, I would not ever complain about where you live right now in front of her or where it might get back to her.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I’m with you on that one. Something like “Oh, that’s really nice you think of your employees like family.”

    5. soupmonger*

      Yep, this is pretty weird. But I’m going to offer a little insight for you – her smalll business probably started with just her and her husband. Then they’d have expanded this tiny circle into employing people. Running a business is an intensely personal thing, and inviting ‘outsiders’ into it is a genuinely odd experience- your little passion project is now big enough to employ people! And in doing so, you need to let go on the passion part a bit. Some people don’t get that, and it sounds as if your boss hasn’t.

      I didn’t get just how personal your own business was until I did just that. I have 15 people now and I take the whole employment thing very seriously. Not living together seriously, but enough. Advice? Pay no attention – it’s the way she’s viewing the business, not you.

  194. New Grad*

    I’ve been interviewing over the past few weeks with one company for an entry-level assistant position. We did a phone interview, an in-person interview, and an Excel test. They asked for my references and were also asking about my availability for a start date.

    This same week, I also went to an interview for an internship with a different organization and was offered the position the next day. (One of my references contacted me to tell me that they called her, so they did actually check.)

    I decided to take the internship since it was in an industry that I’m more interested in. Also, I didn’t have an internship during undergrad and I thought I’d like to experience it.

    Then today I got an email from another internship I had applied to that I had completely written off because I messed up the application and didn’t attach a cover letter that they asked for. But they apparently decided to move me forward anyway and asked me to answer some questions for them and schedule an interview.

    The one I accepted is supposed to run for about three months, through the holiday season (it’s for a children’s charity, so Halloween/Thanksgiving/Christmas is their rush time.) This second one said in the posting that they wanted it to go from October – May, but I kind of doubt that it’ll start until mid-November at the earliest, based on the interview dates they offered. So I’m not sure if maybe I should continue interviewing with them anyway and see if it would be possible to do this second one after the first one ends, or if that’s a bad idea.

  195. InspiringIvy*

    I have an interview next week at an organisation where I’m pretty sure that the CEO is someone I went to high school with. I’m in my mid-30s. Our paths didn’t cross much back then and I haven’t seen her since, but I still recognise her and remember her name. It’s not a senior role that I’m interviewing for, so we wouldn’t be working directly together, beyond being based in the same office. Do people think this is something I need to mention in the interview or during the hiring process? It’s such a trivial connection, but for some reason I feel like it might look weird if I did get the job and it only came up after I started.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure I would mention it during the interview. If you do get the job, you can always say you weren’t sure it was the same person from high school, and if it is, well, you have something in common.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, you could wait until you have an offer then casually mention “Did Jane go to Random High School?” That way the cards are on the table at the offer stage.

  196. Pathfinder Ryder*

    This week in an interview I knocked my glass of water over, very narrowly missing one of my interviewer’s notes. They were incredibly nice about it, the one whose notes I missed getting up for paper towels and having me go on with the other two interviewers, but I’m still a bit embarrassed!

    Tell me about embarrassing interviews you’ve had.

    1. Ron McDon*

      I similarly spilled water during an interview – I was going to pour myself a glass and offered to pour one for one of the interviewers; however nerves or the pouring action of the jug got the better of me, as the water glugged over the glass and all over the table.

      Everyone was similarly nice about it and mopped it up; and I was offered the job so it didn’t make as bad an impression as I’d feared!

      Good luck

    2. Mrs. Fenris*

      I had a lunch interview with the two owners of the company. What is the dumbest thing you can possibly order at a lunch interview? You got it-French onion soup. I took a mouthful of nuclear-hot soup just as somebody asked me a question. I recovered OK, but I did get a sympathetic “oh wow, soup too hot huh?” I did get the job, though. :-)

  197. Rhodoferax*

    After a year and four months working in a call centre, I’m about to get back into manufacturing. Two weeks from now I’ll be assembling things at a medical device company big enough to have a Wikipedia article. This feels so good.

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Long time coming. And well deserved. Congratulations for finally reaching the end of the tunnel.

  198. Nervous Nelly*

    I’m having a mild anxiety attack. I applied for and received a “tentative” job offer from a U.S. federal agency. I’ve accepted the initial tentative offer but it could be rescinded for any old reason. There were a whole bunch of online forms to fill out that were really confusing. The worst one asked the question, “Do you have any previous work experience at a federal agency that you are not claiming?” WFT? This came after previous questions asking if you had any federal agency experience and any previous experience in the U.S. military. So anyway, I don’t and the answer should be “no.”

    The other thing that threw me was on the page asking about your ethnicity. After answering the questions (I don’t have anything to hide) I accidentally checked the box about declining to state my ethnicity. I unclicked it, but it wouldn’t accept it, so I had to submit the form as “Decline to state” although I answered the question a few spaces above that. Weird, huh?

    I’m going to go through the online paperwork again this weekend to make sure that I’m not missing anything. It is weird to me that I haven’t had an actual interview yet. They are supposed to send me an email to set up an appointment for me to be fingerprinted and I guess I’ll have to pee in a cup. The job pays well and I just hope it turns out to be decent.

  199. Slartibartfast*

    So here’s my question.

    I started a job with the local government a few months ago. I’m 28 and by far the youngest person on my floor. The average person here is probably 10 years older than me, maybe even 15-20. My floor is split between IT (my department) and HR.

    I get a lot of comments from the HR people on my floor about being young. Some of them are just corny jokes, but enough of them are mean spirited enough that they put me on edge when I run into one of the HR people. Earlier this week a guy stopped me in the hall to say “I’m not gonna be your friend, and I’m not gonna give you money. You millennials need to stop complaining and start working.”

    I’d like to say something back (whether it’s a pointed reply or a complaint), but since I’m new and these people are in HR that would go poorly. Should I say something or not?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “I don’t know what made you think I was going to ask you.”
      “You worry too much. It will be okay. You will see.”
      “Nice to meet you… what did you say your name is?”

  200. trick or treat yoself*

    I’m in the middle of a long job interview process (I’ve been warned it might take between 4-6 months) and I was planning on checking in this coming week. It is acceptable to mention something like “I’m excited about the opportunity to join Company and help guide Strategies for the Team. I think establishing a branding guide would help Company become a leader in Strategy A.”

    They rely on interns to create some of their content and, unfortunately, it’s obvious that someone young and inexperienced is writing it (emojis, bad grammar, lack of punctuation, abbreviations when they’re not needed, etc.). However, I’m not sure if my proposed sentence quite comes across as “I’m excited about moving forward in this application process because I have so many ideas!” and more “y’all are terrible and you need me to fix your problems.”

  201. Lola*

    Has anyone successfully launched a blog and generated income from it? Please share the kind of blog and anything else you feel made you successful in generating income from it.

  202. London Calling*

    Alison – a friend’s husband was let go from a temp job a few weeks ago. I told her to point him towards your site, take in the advice and information about CVs, cover letters and how to conduct a job search – he used your advice about how to prepare for an interview and – two weeks later, he has a permanent job.

    So that’s twoof us (three if you count her, because she was getting pretty worried about him) blessing you, your name and your site.

  203. Rin*

    Help if possible please!
    I’m running into a little bit of a problem. I’ve been working on the past year to publish my Master’s thesis and I just realized that the reason it might not have been accepted to any of the journals I have tried to submit it to is because of my supervisor.
    I got assigned to my supervisor and he’s a great guy. He’s been really supportive of my project though he’s just in a totally different field. He’s in microbiology (like I used to be) but my thesis was in community health/anthropology.
    However, I have been getting really frustrated with him lately. For instance, I would write and edit a draft of a submission to be, say 4 pages, and I’d give it to him to submit. By the time I get access to the final file, it has already been submitted, rejected, and reduced to 2 pages of almost complete gibberish. And it’s not like it’s happening on one draft. It’s for Every. Single. One. It’s getting to the point where I don’t know how to proceed. Technically, I will be first author. However, because he was my supervisor for the thesis and has helped with some editing so he has to be acknowledged as co-author. He’s also the guy paying for the submissions with his own grants. So he has to be part of the process but I’m not sure I’m comfortable publishing with him anymore. I don’t want my first publication to be a poor indication of my work (especially since I’m hoping to do more research work) and right now, it’s worse than my high school lab reports.
    I have no idea how to tell my supervisor that his method of “fixing” and publishing my work is not working for me. Not to mention, it is extremely annoying to get the editors’ reviews of my paper as they tend to have issues with things that I haven’t even written (which I subsequently have to fix only for them to be “re-fixed”).
    Any help would be much appreciated.
    I’d rather not bonfire my work

  204. Ramona Flowers*

    It’s probably too late to get any input but I’m just letting off steam anyway.

    I’m in a networking group with Rachel and Monica. I’m not still in their field but this group has long since morphed from a work networking group to a social one and we all just use it to keep in touch. I find Rachel exasperating and don’t interact with her outside the group if I can help it.

    Rachel makes big, careless mistakes in every job and has been fired twice. She’s always posting about how this manager hates her and is out to get her or how it’s so unfair that she made a huge mistake and people were upset about it.

    While all people make mistakes, these are serious, negligent ones that in some cases have opened her employers up to potential legal action. And it’s always always someone else’s fault and her managers are always out to get her.

    I just don’t engage, as I’m not going to enable her belief that it’s always everyone else’s fault or try to talk her out of it. (Tried once. Never again. Can’t be done.)

    However Monica is always there with a kindly response. That’s not your fault, they obviously didn’t train you right, you shouldn’t have to put up with that. And it’s making a few of us (who are sometimes in the position to recommend people for work) judge Monica. She is too over the top in the way she reassures Rachel and it makes her look like she lacks critical thinking skills.

  205. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

    Is it normal to feel so anxious the night before your boss returns from vacation?
    I’m chronically underconfident and unhappy at work. But for the past two and a bit weeks, while my manager has been on leave, I’ve had the most amazing time and couldn’t have been happier – it’s been like I’m a different person.
    I need to explain (sorry, it’s going to be a long one). I’ve been at my current job for just over eight years. I’ve been through the ups and downs, and right now it’s in one of the downs. So the shareholders brought in some consultants to shake things up and turn things around. And they’ve been shaking – we have a whole new executive leadership team, 100% replacement since August. I work in an offshoot of Finance (I’m not an accountant, I hold no accountancy qualifications, but I’m responsible for customer billing and creating our company budgets and inputs into the financial reporting). We are a team of four – three peers and a manager. We work in the WORST of open plan spaces – banks of 2-6 straight desks (think little more than tables), linked side by side with no dividing partitions, and my manager sits RIGHT NEXT TO ME. Literally. She is no more than 6 feet away at any time. And she’s a terminal interrupter – it’s a permanent case of the Cudyajusts (as in “could you just do this?” or, more frequently, “could you just help me with that?”). My two co-workers openly joke that when manager goes on holiday, it’s a chance for me to actually do some work, so it’s really not unnoticed. Her Cudyajusts are limited to me – I THINK it’s because she sees me as her right-hand gal, her go-to person, her most reliable member of staff. (Or, alternatively, her biggest door mat)
    One of the consultants brought in has been tasked with working with Finance to improve the overall financial reporting, etc., so has been working with my team. He attended the handover before holiday meeting between myself and manager where she gave me a list of tasks as long as my arm to complete (in addition to my normal workload, which is already backlogged because of the Cudyajusts). Some of these were tasks that said consultant had given, so he needed to attend the meeting to know they were being delegated, and who to bother with any follow up questions for any additional or previous tasks.
    Then she went on leave. And the sun came out.
    The consultant has, by accident or design, become my perfect workplace mentor. (I’m 37, I’m embarrassed it’s taken so long). He’s taken me under his wing and recognised my skillset far outreaches the tasks I’ve been given, both in the handover and my day-to-day work. He’s deliberately been including me in meetings with virtually all the new executive leadership team, making sure they know my face, my name and my contributions (which, if I’m honest, haven’t been exaggerated, but I had no idea I did so much until he started mentioning it to the CCO and CFO). He’s effectively been networking on my behalf, and then coaching me on how to do the follow up by myself. And, during a candid conversation, he was HORRIFIED at my salary (just over £20k/$26.5k), given my tenure, skills, industry knowledge and department knowledge.
    It’s been an amazing two weeks. I’ve been excited to come to work, and plenty of people have noticed that I’m all bouncy and enthusiastic and glowing with keenness.
    And tomorrow, it’ll all go away because my manager returns in the morning.
    I know how this will go, because it happens every time. The Cudyajusts will start after about an hour (gives her time to log in and check the volume of email). There’ll be negative feedback that I haven’t finished her list of tasks (despite the fact that I’ve progressed them almost all to the point where I need other people’s input to complete – I may have had the responsibility, but not the authority to get that input). My normal workload (which is just about back on track, if not slightly ahead, even with the additional task list – that’s how motivated I’ve been; I’ve happily stayed late at work because I’ve been so focussed I’ve not noticed the time) will start slipping from about close of business. My tentative self-confidence boost will erode to nothing by the weekend.
    So, yeah. I’m anxious. And yet, paradoxically, I feel better for having ranted. Even if I get no comments on this; even if it’s moderated off the site for being a bit rambling, I needed to just type this out to get it off my chest. Thank you AAM & Community for this opportunity.
    (But if you’ve got any anxiety tips, I’d appreciate it!)

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