fired for wearing a Halloween costume to work, bug drama, and more

by Alison Green on November 2, 2017

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. My employee got fired for wearing a Halloween costume to work … and trick-or-treating in an important meeting

I work at a financial firm. Every employee must wear a suit. Only closed-toe dress shoes are allowed, no wild hair color, etc. Our dress code is always formal with no exceptions. On Halloween, one of my employees came to work dressed as Princess Tiana. We had a meeting scheduled with our C-suite and directors and several important clients. She showed up minutes before the meeting started and came into the room in her full costume, asking everyone to give her candy, to the disbelief of everyone who was present. She was asked to leave the meeting immediately by someone from the C-suite.

She told me afterward that she didn’t see what the problem was and wanted to bring fun to our “stuffy” office. I asked her if anyone told her it was okay for her to dress up and she said it was her idea and she didn’t talk about it with anyone here. She said she was going to come as Michonne from The Walking Dead but had decided it wouldn’t be appropriate for work. I was going to have a serious talk with her because she kept saying she didn’t do anything wrong, but she was fired later that day on the orders of our director.

I had hired her five months ago just after she had completed her studies at university. I’m sure she was still figuring out how things work in office and finance environments. The decision to fire her was out of my hands though. I have been in a supervisory role and hiring people for over a decade. There were no red flags from her at any time and this came out of left field. The director keeps asking me what she was thinking but I have no clue. If my employee had mentioned anything to me about this, I would have explained why she couldn’t do it.

The director has also ordered a reprint of our handbook and all materials to clearly state dressing up in costume for Halloween is not allowed. I don’t think this is necessary because in the 15 years I have worked here this has never happened before. The director keeps on asking me why my employee would do this and what she was thinking but I don’t have an answer for her. She said she has never been so embarrassed in her life and has been getting heat from her boss and the C-suite over it. How do I address this with the director? I had no clue of what my employee was going to do. I don’t think a reprint of all our materials is necessary. She keeps asking me what my employee was thinking but I don’t know what to tell her and she has brought it up multiple times.

This is a really weird thing to fire someone over, unless there had been other signs that she wasn’t getting your culture or professional norms, or unless she was more disruptive than I realize when she entered that meeting. To be clear, trick-or-treating in an important client meeting is truly terrible judgment … especially from someone five months into their first post-college job. And then calling your office “stuffy” when you talked to her about it later? Not good.

But the outrage over the costume itself is strange, and it sounds like your director is wildly overreacting; plenty of offices do dress up for Halloween, and your employee just misjudged that. If they don’t want Halloween costumes there, they can tell people that before Halloween. It does not require an immediate reprinting of the handbook, nor the director repeatedly questioning you about what your employee was thinking. She asked, you gave a reasonable answer, and that should be the end of it.

If it comes up again, I’d just say this: “She clearly misjudged the culture. In many offices, people do dress up for Halloween, so I’m sure that’s where she got the idea. I hadn’t seen any previous signs that she wasn’t fitting into our culture or that she wasn’t following our professional norms, but she’s also right out of school and new to the work world. Going forward, I’ll make sure my team is clear that we don’t dress up for Halloween.” That’s all you can say, really. Hopefully your director won’t spend days on this.

It would also be worth making sure that you’re clearly communicating any cultural expectations to new hires, especially more junior ones. I don’t know that it should have occurred to you that you’d need to mention costumes ahead of time, but given that someone got fired over it, that’s a clear sign that your culture is unusually uptight about some things that wouldn’t be a big deal at other places — and so you’ve got to make sure you’re being very clear with people about expectations.

2. My coworker put a bug in the plant near me

I have a weird issue. My coworker recently brought a ladybug down from his office two floors up to live in our potted plants (we have two plants near my desk in an open office plan, there are none upstairs). Before he did it he was walking around with it announcing his intention to rehome it in the plants and I told him not to leave it here in no uncertain terms. I hate insects and I certainly don’t want one, even a “cute” one, set loose to wander the office. Or create a colony in the plants NEXT TO MY DESK.

He put the ladybug in the plant despite my protests. My two other coworkers didn’t seem to think it was a big deal. After he left, I tried to find and kill it but it was already gone god knows where. I told him I killed it anyway just to dissuade him from bringing more bugs down here. (It’s snowing and all the bugs are heading inside to the warmth where they can, so it’s possible this wouldn’t be a lone instance.) He was horrified.

This dude doesn’t work on the same floor as me or have the same boss, but transferred from our area a couple weeks ago. He’s a nice guy, I guess as evidenced from so badly wanting to save a ladybug, but WTF? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills, because to me it seems clear that you don’t put bugs in your coworker’s work areas.

Should I approach my boss about this or let it slide and hope he doesn’t repeat this odd behaviour? What concerns me most is that he completely ignored me telling him not to do that!

Do not approach your boss about this. It doesn’t rise to the level of warranting that.

And don’t tell your coworker that you’re killing bugs he’s trying to save. When he’s clearly trying to save a creature’s life, that’s a really unkind thing to say, even if you were annoyed with his actions.

If you feel strongly that you don’t want him to deposit a bug near your desk in the future, I’d say something like this: “Hey, I really don’t like being around insects and I really don’t want you to put them in our plants. There are plants in the X and Y areas that you could put them in though.” I know you said you tried telling him, but it sounds like originally you may have been so emphatic about it that he didn’t take you seriously — which, while counterintuitive, is a thing that sometimes happens when someone’s reaction is so strong that other people assume they’re just being silly. (That said, he’s not likely to entrust you with a bug in need of a safe home again so this probably is a non-issue.)

3. What’s the deal with “reach out”?

Alison, you get a lot of emails. Do you have any insight into the popularity of the phrase “reach out to” replacing the simple verb “contact?” When did this become the normal phrasing? I see it in letters in your blog frequesntly. I just got this email from a customer care associate, with three “reach out to” instances in three sentences and I wanted to scream: “I was reaching out to you first, as the customer only said they had reached out to (vendor). (Vendor) did not advise what the price should be. Would you reach out to the (vendor) or would I?”

It seems to imply a fake over-solicitousness that would be more appropriate in social work or the caring professions. I don’t work in those areas, I work at a huge company that is definitely for-profit! Am I horrible if I point out the overuse of this phrase to my customer care people? They all use it. They are all youngish (under 35) Using “contact” would save them some keystrokes too.

Ha, I’ve noticed I use it all the time too. I don’t know why; I just like it. I think this is more pet peeve on your end than something you need to correct in the people working for you.

This is an interesting piece on it though, and it points out that “contact” was once seen as an annoying colloquialism as well.

4. Do I need a new cover letter if I’m reapplying to a job I applied to previously?

A few months ago I applied to a job that fit my experience really well. I thought my cover letter was great, because I was able to reference work that my current office does with the company I was applying for. I never heard anything back, but today I saw a job posting that seems exactly the same as the one I applied for months back. I am still pretty interested in the job and think I’d be a good fit. Can I apply for this job again? If yes, do I rewrite my cover letter so it doesn’t sound like the one before (to avoid them thinking I copy and pasted)?

How many months back? If it was within the last few months, I wouldn’t reapply. You applied, they considered you, and they rejected you, so for now at least, they don’t think you’re as well matched with the role as what you’re looking for.

But if it’s been a while — which I can’t quantify precisely because it depends on the context, but more than three months, maybe more than six months — then sure, you can give it another shot. But when you do, write a brand new cover letter. The old one didn’t work the first time, so it makes sense to try something new. Plus, if they realize it’s the same as before, it’s going to look like you’re just going through the motions, rather than putting real time and thought into applying.

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    1. Undine*

      If you’re greeting the papal nuncio or the Marquis de Carabas, yes. For the CFO, apparently the wrong choice.

    2. Lorelei Gilmore*

      I actually really want Princess to write in about her firing, just because I desperately want to hear her side of the story.

      I’m so embarrassed for her it hurts. But I also just really want to know what she was thinking. How did she think this was going to play out? And we’re only hearing from the manager… what did she say to her coworkers leading up to this? Did they make her think it was okay?

      I have so many questions for the Princess.

        2. JulieBulie*

          I wonder if her coworkers put her up to it as a practical joke. “I’m going as Bumblebee!” “I’m going as the Hamburglar!” “Jane always goes as Dilbert!” “We like to trick-or-treat at client meetings!” I know… the letter says the employee claimed it was her own idea, but I wonder if she said that before she knew she was getting fired.

          I mean, usually there is some chatter before Halloween with people discussing their costumes, what they went as last year, etc. The only way the employee didn’t know would be if no one mentioned Halloween at all and she didn’t mention it herself, either. Which is kinda weird.

          1. Q*

            The coworkers at my last job did this to me. We were allowed to dress up for Halloween, and everyone in my department said they were going to wear something. The receptionist also encouraged me and said some people reall get into it. I showed up in full costume, and no one else in my department did. Two other people in the entire company ended up dressing up. I was fairly new and felt like an idiot, and ended up leaving a few months after, it was a crappy place to work with overall crappy coworkers.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              My sympathy. One would think people would be done with this crap in grammar school. Guess not.
              I am glad you got out of there.

            2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

              Wow, that’s really mean of them. I’d be livid. But I have an irrational hatred of pranks.

          2. Plague of frogs*

            My cousin told us to dress as pirates for her wedding, and I had a passing thought that maybe she was just pranking us–we would show up dresses as pirates and everyone else would be semi-formal.

      2. designbot*

        Especially about the trick or treat gag… the costume, I can write off as a misunderstanding. But when she showed up at work and nobody else was in costume, how did she still think the trick or treat gag was a good idea??

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          It seems almost aggressive, “well no one’s fired me yet, maybe they didn’t notice.”

          Why would people sitting in a meeting be armed with candy for passing trick-or-treaters?

          I don’t care if they’re the interns rather than the C-suite, you don’t wander in and start demanding any treat-ish items they might be carrying in their pockets. (My husband’s old work had trick-or-treating; our daughter went in dressed as a butterfly and roamed the cubicles, demonstrating her flapping. Everyone who wanted to participate knew in advance and had candy on hand. Also, she was 3 and not 23.)

          1. Amber T*

            My dad’s office allowed you to bring your kids in on Halloween to go trick or treating, and all employees were notified in advanced and asked to bring in candy if they wanted to participate (asked, not voluntold). Dad jokingly asked me if I wanted to go with him and go trick or treating again (I’m in my late 20s). It’s adorable when tiny children do it, but suuuper weird when a grown adult does it.

        2. EddieSherbert*

          I wonder if it was like a panicked laughing-at-herself way to acknowledge she’d been kind of dumb?

          ..Like, oh my gosh, I’m the only one in costume and I don’t have other clothes and I have a meeting in 5 minutes… Maybe I can play it off as a joke.

          (still terrible judgment, but not necessarily malicious shove-it-in-your-stuffy-faces intent)

          2. Observer*

            But then she doubled down and told her supervisor that she was trying to “bring some fun into the stuffy office.”

          3. ggg*

            Exactly. Was this her coming in and saying, as a joke, “Where’s my candy?” or actually going around the table holding her bag open in front of everyone?

            And the comment about the “stuffy office” doesn’t sound fireable either. OK, you tried to inject your fun into the stuffy office and it DID. NOT. WORK. Don’t do it again. If she does…well, then you can fire her.

            1. fposte*

              It’s not so much the comment about the stuffy office as it is the failure to acknowledge that she was wrong. If I tell my report that she blew it and she refuses to admit she did or agree that it’s a problem, that’s huge to me–it means that I can’t expect improvement based on my input and that I have serious doubts about her ability to assess her own performance. I wouldn’t hire somebody if I knew they were lik ehtat.

        3. minuteye*

          In that position, I would have been really embarrassed to realize that I was the only person in costume. If there was no option to go home and change (e.g. an important meeting happening that I couldn’t miss), I could definitely see trying to make a joke of some kind to defuse the tension. Once you’re stuck in that situation, drawing attention to the oddness before trying to move on makes some sense.

          It was still a big error in judgment to a) not ask beforehand whether a costume would be appropriate, and b) double down and insist she hadn’t done anything wrong. But the first of those is a really easily made mistake (especially for someone new to the workforce) and it doesn’t sound like the second had anything to do with the firing (word came down from on high, and they probably hadn’t spoken to her since the incident).

          Assuming there were no other problems with the employee’s work, it’s a tremendous overreaction for an office that hadn’t bothered to tell employees about the invisible “no costumes” rule.

          1. Halloween fail*

            This was me! When I was 21 and had no clue what was appropriate/non appropriate..I have my first ‘grown up role’ working as an admin in a large historical house ,I had been told that on certain holidays costumed guides were around as the house was open to the public , so on Halloween I rocked up to work dressed as a french maid complete with garters and fluffy duster..bad, bad ,bad idea!!!!! I hadn’t realised that A) costumed guides meant actual historical/living history guides NOT the staff.. and b) what seemed funny in theory was just horrifically cringeworthy in reality..especially when your the only one in the office in costume and you have to sit through a 45 minute ‘chat’ from HR on appropriate office attire and a whooooooole lot of office teasing..for months!

          2. Slow Gin Lizz*

            I agree a lot with minuteye’s point b. The biggest error in judgement here is that after she was told what she did was inappropriate she didn’t immediately apologize for her mistake. Well, no, the whole thing was one giant judgement error, but if she wasn’t immediately acting penitent for what she did, then I’m not sure firing was an overreaction. She showed up to an important meeting *with clients present* and tried to go trick or treating? That’s a fire-able offense, IMO.

            1. Jadelyn*

              I’m not sure about that – for someone with some professional experience under their belt, I’d be more inclined to see it as such because they should have been better able to read the culture and I would be worried about their good judgment in general at that point, but for a brand new college grad in her first post-school job, I feel like some leniency for one screw-up – not even a screw-up with major implications, it’s not like she made a mistake the cost the company a federal contract worth millions of dollars or anything – while she’s still in the “learning and calibrating expectations” phase of her career would be a better approach.

              1. Slow Gin Lizz*

                I thought she showed up to a meeting where there were clients present, in which case she may indeed have cost the company a contract worth millions of dollars. Not that we know that for sure, of course, but there’s usually an added expectation of professionalism whenever clients are involved, so she definitely should’ve stayed away from that meeting.

                1. Christopher*

                  You would at least hope that the amount of people offended enough by a costume on Halloween is pretty small. Who would cancel a contract because of that?
                  They’d be confused by it sure, but enough to leave?

                  I assume this story is in the US because there’s no way they’d be allowed to fire a person based on this here in the UK! It’s like some sort of nightmare to read that this is possible in all honesty.

          3. S-Mart*

            I don’t think it’s fair to call the ‘no costumes’ rule “invisible”. Maybe not explicit, but assuming the LW’s assertion that “every employee must wear a suit” is codified in the dress code – which I don’t think is a stretch – that eliminates the vast majority of costumes (including Princess Tiana).

            I do agree that the firing is probably an overreaction, but it would come down to how exactly the trick or treating went. Firing for the costume alone would be an overreaction for sure. Firing for the surrounding behavior I think depends on nuance of how it went down that only those present will get.

            1. JB*

              What if an employee showed up in, say, a black suit, white shirt, black tie, and sunglasses? Obviously a Men in Black costume, but still a suit.

              1. J.*

                They could take the sunglasses off for a meeting with clients and pretend like it never happened when it was obvious that literally no one else had dressed up?

              2. Kj*

                And that would be hilarious and appropriate- because it could be easily passed off as professional clothes if the sunglasses were put away.

                Really, if you want to be in costume, pick a costume that is close to your professional norms- I’ve dressed up for work before (but I work with kids in a setting where this is perfectly fine) but the costumes I have chosen are basically something I would wear to work anyways + an accessory or two that makes it clear I’m in costume.

                I also dress up every year for May the 4th, wearing Star Wars socks, putting my hair in Princess Leia buns and wearing a Star Wars t-shirt under a nice sweater. It is setting appropriate and fun and, again, I work with kids and my quirkiness is considered an asset with my population. But that is why I don’t work in finance.

                1. BostonBaby*

                  It really is about so office dependent and the more you can fit it into the “office norms” the better. For example I just started a new job in Finance, I am also a huge nerd. And love comics and movies and go to conventions.

                  I have a great collection of nerdy, but classy pendants/rings I can wear to work regularly. Non-nerd just see a necklace, others recognize their people and then I get to talk about Thor and the Hulk.

                  I have

                2. Bat Girl*

                  I dressed up for Halloween one year – I have a really nice day dress that is actually brilliantly office appropriate, but it has a bat print all over it. I usually don’t need an occasion to wear it, but for Halloween I paired it with subtle bat earrings, and had a cape instead of a coat – but that was draped over my chair. Also hung some jack-o-lantern lights around my computer.

                  I had at LEAST three people, more than halfway through the day, suddenly go “OH, it’s HALLOWEEN today”. It took them that long to peg that I was dressed up for Halloween. They told me they genuinely just thought it was “me being me”.

              3. dawbs*

                that’s more or less the rule I had my employees subscribe to when I worked at a ‘no costume’ location.
                If you can *reasonably* pretend it’s clothing, you can wear it.

                So you want to do the whole ‘super hero shirt under a button down’–rock the Barbra Gordon. Or dress that resembles a star trek uniform (but is work appropriate length! so TNG, not original) with a gold pin, you can be Counselor Troi.
                (Plausable deniability costuming)

                But you may have to remove the accessories if the great-grand-boss visits our floor.

                1. many bells down*

                  When I can’t really dress up, I put on a black dress and a witch hat. The black dress by itself is unremarkable, and the witch hat can get ditched if it’s a problem.

                2. PepperVL*

                  I wore a Hogwarts student on Tuesday – grey skirt, black tights, white button down shirt, Ravenclaw tie. Perfectly business appropriate outfit that became a costume when I put in the robes. My co-worker was Wednesday Addams in the Peter-Pan collared black dress and just left her wig off. Those are the costumes you wear when costumes aren’t done.

                4. Falling Diphthong*

                  It’s one of the great sci fi mysteries: The belief that in the future, everyone will wear skintight unitards all the time.

                  At least when early 20th century sci fi has everyone put on a hat before they go out the door, they’re reflecting a current fashion norm.

                5. many bells down*

                  @Falling Dipthong – The mystery to me was that some of the later-season TNG uniforms for the women were jumpsuits that zipped up the BACK. I guess no one has to urgently pee in the future.

              4. mdv*

                I think so! A couple of years ago I had an informal appointment with my dad’s orthopedic surgeon after my dad passed away (had to finish a disability claim in order to get life insurance), and it ended up being on Halloween. His “costume” was a skintight Superman costume shirt under his shirt and tie, with the tie loosened and ONE button undone — this could be easily tightened up to look formal as needed!

                He is a gorgeous tall fit man with curly black hair, he made a *great* Clark Kent. [DROOL]

          4. Katherine*

            Honestly, if the dress code was that strict, I don’t blame the higher-ups for assuming everyone knew not to dress up in Halloween costumes. At the very least, you’d think a person would ask ahead of time instead of just showing up in costume.

            1. Decima Dewey*

              The order for an immediate reprinting of the handbook, with the No Halloween Costumes rule explicitly added, is probably to avoid rules lawyering. That is, “But where does it say I can’t dress up as Tarzan?”

              1. fposte*

                But if you can’t set firm lines without being granular, you’re doing a bad job of managing. You can’t make the handbook a defensive measure that attempts to close every loophole without that taking its own toll.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  Yes. A handbook that attempted to predict every single possible bad idea or misbehavior an employee might do would wind up being hundreds of pages long, and you’d still find things as you go that you didn’t account for because you never thought someone would, I don’t know, take a dump under someone’s desk, and you never imagined anyone would need an explicit rule about that.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  Well, now OP can just tell her new staff, “Don’t dress up for Halloween. The last person who did got fired.” I think that would be pretty clear.

              2. Katherine*

                Oh, I agree. I’m just saying that I think it’s unreasonable to refer to it as an “invisible rule.” In this particular environment, it seems like it would be a matter of common sense.

            2. CMart*

              I work in a “casual” office where we are allowed to wear jeans every day, but my department (finance and accounting) tends to skew slightly more professional with jeans + nice blouse/button up shirt and non-sneaker shoes. We’re a fairly quiet, keep our heads down kind of bunch and while I don’t think anyone would have gotten in trouble for wearing a costume it would have been really out of step with the general atmosphere. I’ve only been here 6 months and I knew nearly without a doubt that no one would be dressed up, and I was right.

              That’s a long way of saying I agree with you. The kind of office where you’re in business formal every day does not strike me as the kind of office where you’d get away with fanciful cat ears, let alone a full on costume.

            3. As Close As Breakfast*

              I agree. For me, it leans more towards common sense than not knowing because you’re fairly new in your first post grad job.

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        How did she think this was going to play out?

        I know, right? “Hmmm, my workplace is way too stuffy. I think I’ll show up in full costume and demand treats. That’ll loosen them up for sure!”

      4. Kiki*

        I’m secretly hoping she wanted to get fired and decided to go big and do something she knew was totally ridiculous but not so egregious that it would ruin her professional reputation.

      5. Specialk9*

        It just seems like a wild over reaction by management. They ordered her to leave (which would reduce me to a puddle of humiliation by itself), fired her (an otherwise good employee), and are harassing OP and OP’s director? Get a life, crazy uptight people.

        This was a teachable moment. This was to be her future cringe worthy memory. Not actually a black mark on her record that may ruin her career!

        Over reacting jerks.

        1. Allie Jones*

          Yes, I feel it was a really huge overreaction.

          Also, does anyone else see a racial component in this? The OP did not say but the fired employee mentioned to Black characters that they were going to dress as, which makes me think that she is a black woman herself. The massive over-reaction to me sounds like an ugly case of “you don’t belong here.”

          1. AmyKins*

            YES! THIS! I had the same thought–it does sound like the employee had some extreme judgment errors but I share your concern that the reactions she received may have also come from a place of “She’s not one of us,” for lack of a better phrase.

          2. Specialk9*

            Oh wow I didn’t catch that! I didn’t know that Princess Tiana or that Walking Dead character were both black, but oh my yes that adds an important wrinkle!

          4. Cyn*

            Yes, thank you! I usually don’t go through the comments on this blog but I did today because this immediately caught my attention.

            My guess is this was a situation where a newish employee made an error in judgment and the company had a range of possible responses. And that her being black (if that was indeed the case, based on both costumes being of black characters) was something that the higher ups already saw as “out of place” (even if they weren’t conscious of it).

            Would a young white woman have gotten a stern talking to instead of being fired? What about a young white man?

            1. Kat*

              I’m honestly surprised this is the first comment I’ve seen remarking on the fact that the fired employee was likely a black woman, based on her costume choices. At the mention of a Tiana costume, my eyebrow raised. At the mention of Michonne? I was like…okay. I see where this is headed, and I know why everyone reacted the way they did.

              And no, a young white woman fresh out of college would not have been fired for wearing a dressy costume on Halloween.

    4. Important Moi*

      To me this falls under “Ask forgiveness, not permission.”

      A lot folks when they wish to do something questionable that to them doesn’t fall under the category of dire, they do it and then apologize.

      1. Mary*

        But who would *want* to wear a costume to work if they knew it was going to be a huge faux pas? However much you love costumes, i can’t see what’s in it for you if you know you’re going to be the only one in the whole organisation!

          1. fposte*

            I don’t know if that’s true–I think she may not have realized it was as much of one as it was, but if she wasn’t just CYA about bringing fun to the stuffy office, she knew it was out of culture.

          2. Mary*

            But then it’s not “ask forgiveness, not permission”. “Ask forgiveness not permission” is for when you know you’re not supposed to do something but you want to do it anyway. There’s no advantage to doing something humiliating and then asking forgiveness.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        When I first ran across that phrase, in a Miles Vorkosigan novel, I thought “Ha ha, how great!” But it’s a really, really lousy quality in a coworker. Or friend, or romantic partner. Only amusing when you’re reading about the crazy antics of someone who is safely way over there, in a fictional universe.

        In a later book, Miles realized that his boss’s “I hope someday you have a dozen subordinates just like you” was a formal curse.

    5. DeskBird*

      Just to present a similar story that ended totally differently – There are about 200 people where I work and only one dressed in costume – who was head to toe dressed as a 20’s flapper. She went and knocked on the glass wall of a conference room and then did a flapper dance when everyone turned and looked. It turned out they were some super high up’s from one of our big customers from a big industry. When she realized who they were she was mortified – but everyone else in the meeting was super amused. Sometimes it is o.k. to dress up even if no one else does – but she has worked here for a very long time and knows it is ok, even if no one else does.

  2. periwinkle*

    #1 It’s not just the Halloween costume that got her fired immediately, although it certainly didn’t help matters. I’m assuming the director fired her for (1) appalling lack of professional judgment resulting in (2) embarrassment to the firm’s professional reputation in front of major clients and (3) huge embarrassment to the director made worse with (4) lack of accountability for her behavior and attitude that the firm’s culture needs to be more like what she wants (less stuffy).

    If she had merely worn a costume, she probably would have been sent home to change and maybe been disciplined or at least brought in for a serious level-set discussion. The rest of it, thought?

    1. I totally don't know anything about this*

      Yeah, to me the behavior in the meeting with important clients is what sealed her fate.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          But from people who probably aren’t even carrying candy. Which does have an underlayer of “Oh yeah? Well, what do you have?”

          1. Kelly L.*

            Well, I doubt she really thought they were going to give her anything, candy or otherwise. It was a tone-deaf joke, but a joke.

        2. Specialk9*

          Well, or, as posited above, an extreme overreaction to Costuming While Black in a mostly white firm.

          1. Anion*

            We have no idea what the racial or ethnic makeup of the firm is; the OP didn’t mention it, so it’s just as possible that the higher-ups are POC.

          2. JessaB*

            Or possibly the other way. We do not know whether the employee is Black or White. This could be a case of costuming while Black, but it could also be a case of appropriation and costuming as a Black character while White. I don’t think in this case it matters however. Understanding Michonne is a bad idea, and not getting that in a really formal place Tiana is also not okay, is an issue of not getting the tone of the place.

      2. Tuesday Next*

        I agree. It’s one to arrive, realise you’re the only one dressed up, and sit quietly at your desk hoping nobody notices (or ask to go home and change). Barging into an exec-level client meeting to ask for candy is so tone-deaf, I can’t even wrap my head around it. I can’t help wondering how none of her colleagues noticed that she was dressed up.

        1. Say what, now?*

          Maybe the meeting was so early in the day that there wasn’t time? That was my question, too.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          And an excellent argument for having a professional change of clothes that lives in the car/in your desk drawer/etc! This is my practice and it’s been a lifesaver more than once.

          1. Broadcastlady*

            This! My husband is a criminal defense attorney and keeps a tie and suit coat both in his car and in his office, just in case he unexpectedly ends up in court. And it happens quite often.

            1. Elemeno P.*

              I am imagining a suit coat and tie paired with swim trunks and flip flops, and it’s a pretty great image.

                1. Samata*

                  So, actually, to me this is how you test the waters in uber-conservative environments. Wear your professional wear, put on a cat ear headband and see how it plays out. in this case, a tiara.

                2. Jaydee*

                  Yes. Accessorize an otherwise work appropriate outfit. And if it doesn’t go over well, it takes exactly 5 seconds to take the cat ears or tiara off, shove them in a desk drawer, smooth your hair down, and pretend it never happened.

                3. Zombeyonce*

                  Or just a a giant witch hat (me on Halloween). Easy to take off when not appropriate, easy to wear otherwise for holiday spirit.

              2. Julia*

                My husband is a city attorney and these are the actual contents of his car! He doesn’t usually wear them at the same time except mid-change, but he got into the habit of keeping swim/sailing gear in his car when he was a law clerk and his boss required him to be available to go sailing at any time. (Not as egregious as it sounds – the boss was and still is a good mentor and friend and my husband is an excellent sailor and was a state champion swimmer in school.)

            4. Mabel*

              I used to do that just because I like to be prepared for any situation (not an attorney). Now I only have a tiny locker at work, so I’d have to find a wrinkle-proof dress to stuff in there. I already have shoes and pantyhose (and clear nail polish in case of runs) in the locker, so… this is giving me ideas. I may follow up on this and find a wrinkle proof dress, just in case!

          2. SoCalHR*

            Agree that’s a good thing to have on a normal basis, but ESPECIALLY on a day you are in costume. What if you get a flat tire or something, do you really want to be waiting on the side of the road as Tiana? I threw a change of clothes in my car this halloween, just in case, even though my costume was office acceptable and not super extreme.

          3. Say what, now?*

            True, being prepared for many different scenarios is a great thing. Takes a lot of the guesswork and what-ifs out of life. This reminds me I need to trade out the summer outfit in my trunk for a winter-appropriate one. Thanks!

        3. oranges & lemons*

          Well, I have to think at least part of the issue is that she had the bad judgement to wear this costume, with no change of clothes, on a day when presumably she knew she’d be attending an important meeting. I can see myself misjudging the culture and wearing a costume when I was just out of school, but I think most recent grads would have known better than to do that when they knew clients would be there. I suppose it is possible that she didn’t know she would be attending until the last minute, in which case I think the response was pretty harsh.

          1. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way!*

            I agree. I was going to wear a cowboy hat, jeans, shirt with bandanna and boots for Halloween but then remembered I had a client presentation so I decided that wouldn’t be the best option. Sometimes it’s better to err on the side of caution.

          2. another Liz*

            I wonder if she wasn’t invited, and crashed the meeting? THAT would be a fireable offense.

      4. Snark*

        Absolutely. Most folks in my office dress very casually, and if you barged into a meeting with clients trick-or-treating, you’d be chivvied out like an unruly drunk. It’s not a stuffy culture thing. It’s a “who is this muppet playing Manic Pixie Dream Girl in my meeting about the $5 million GuanaCorp account and how soon can I fire her?”

        1. Samiratou*

          Yes, this. My company even has a costume contest, but the only person “trick or treating” was handing out candy. And if I had a meeting that involved clients or executives? No way.

          Although, now that I think of it, I did have an informal lunch meeting with two of our execs on Tuesday, and one (jokingly) asked why we weren’t dressed up so that would have been fine, but I would consider that a definite exception.

        2. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I wouldn’t even barge into a meeting with clients at all, never mind for an immature reason. I’d make an exception for reporting a fire in the building, maybe.

          It’s likely the bosses had to fire her to save face with the clients. “Oh, that woman who showed up at the meeting to go trick or treating? She’s no longer working with us, so you don’t need to worry about her anymore.”

          1. Susan*

            Agree. From the letter, I don’t think she was part of the meeting. Who” we” are is unclear. So she probably did barge in.

        3. Tuxedo Cat*

          I work in academia and my office is super casual to the point people go somewhat costumey on normal days.

          The trick-or-treating part of this story would at least warrant being taken aside and reprimanded in among people in our office. I think if outsiders, particularly outsiders with power, were present, there would be worse consequences.

        4. Specialk9*

          Ok actually, pointing out the Manic Pixie Dream Girl element is valid. They totally overreacted, but that’s a valid criticism of her.

      6. Amber T*

        Definitely. Showing up in *full* costume to a “stuffy” job shows a dumb lack of judgement, but I think a write up and a warning would have sufficed there. But going into a meeting that (presumably) she wasn’t invited to with C level AND important clients AND demanding candy? I think that’s enough bad decisions to warrant a pink slip.

        1. Specialk9*

          That’s not at all clear from the letter. The costume lady’s manager said “we” had a meeting scheduled. It could have included costume lady or not. I read it as costume lady being invited to the meeting, but dressed wrong, compounded it by trying to brazen it out, and then fainting couches and pearl clutching of crazy magnitude ensued.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      This covers it.

      Also when she said the culture was “stuffy” that would raise questions if she used poor judgment before to add fun and this was the last straw.

      I’ll agree if she had only worn a costume maybe management would’ve sent her home to change.

      1. Jen S. 2.0*

        I seriously wonder whether this lady lost a bet. I mean, this was going down in a hail of bullets.

        If not, she probably should have tested the waters with, like, some skull earrings or a bunny ears headband or something.

      2. Collarbone High*

        It almost sounds like she’s watched too many movies where the Manic Pixie Dream Girl shakes up the stuffy office and shows everyone that there’s more to life than work, and everyone is delighted and the boring CEO leaves his shrill wife who only cares about money and marries the MPDG, the end! (/eyeroll)

      3. LKW*

        I’ve seen younger employees attempt to liven up a dress code with bright colors, newer fashions, maybe interesting hair cuts or hair color. But this seems like a 0 – 60 approach with little understanding of how flexible her company might be (or might not be). I mean, if a peep-toed shoe is too scandalous, why would you think a full costume would not cause raised eyebrows?

      4. Tuxedo Cat*

        I’d be worried if she would pull a similar stunt in the future if she thinks the office is “stuffy.”

      5. Jesmlet*

        Yeah like even if she thought it was stuffy, she had the poor judgment to say it out loud and use it as an excuse for her bad decision. It’s so out of left field stupid that I can’t shake the feeling that she was doing this to get fired. It’s just multiple bad decisions in a row so I would’ve made the same call. Seems like a perfectly normal reaction to a combination of bad judgment and potentially damaging the firm’s reputation. New grads looking for work at a financial firm are a dime a dozen, no reason to hold onto this one.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        Part of me wonders if she was trying to get fired. Or at least didn’t care if she did. It’s one thing to show up at your office being the only one dressed up (must be super awkward), but then to draw attention to herself in such an elaborate and obviously bad-idea way? Maybe she was trying to go out in a blaze of glory. Maybe she decided she didn’t want to fit onto that culture anymore. She wouldn’t be the first. I studied finance and a lot of people jump ship after awhile. Because it IS a stuffy environment. You’d think heart surgery was being performed in these offices.

        1. Libora*

          This is exactly what I was thinking. I just can’t believe that such a major misjudgment could be the first one in five months (five months!). To me this screams “I’m tired of the stuffy(!) office, I’m just going to do that and if they fire me, great, I’ll be free.”

          1. babblemouth*

            This “going out in a blaze of glory” theory would make more sense if when asked about it, she had frankly replied “yes, I knew you’d think this was wrong, that’s because you’re too uptight” and then spectacularly burned her bridges. But she indicated she didn’t think she did anything wrong… so I’m still of the opinion she completely misjudged the situation…

            1. Libora*

              I don’t know, I think IMO it would take a bit more guts to be that disrespectful to someone, to their face (someone that you might even like apart from the environment they evolve in) than “””just””” do the stupid/funny thing, play dumb and then getting out of there with a story to tell at parties. I do believe that it would be the case for me but again I’m pretty sure I’ll never ever ever be the “out with a blaze of glory” type (I’m mortified just reading the letter) soooooo I don’t know.

              1. Myrin*

                I agree completely – I think actually confessing such a thing to your supervisor’s face would be particularly brazen; it’s much safer to play dumb and still sneak a remark of the office being too stuffy in there.

          2. AndersonDarling*

            It’s possible that the Princess thought that everyone celebrates Halloween big time. After coming out of University where its a huge deal on campuses and I’m sure a good percent of instructors wear some level of costume, she may have had a skewed view of the celebration. This may have been a one time spectacular misjudgment.

            1. Libora*

              I agree with you for the costume part, but the rest of the story seems so over the top. If the story had been “A five months in, out of college employee completly misjudged the culture and came in costume for Halloween and wasn’t able to change clothes without being sent home. Obviously when we talked she was mortified”, it probably would have ended there.

            2. Lynxa*

              But it sounds like the LW is in the UK (“just after she had completed her studies at university”) where Halloween REALLY isn’t as big a deal as it is in the US. There’s not really trick or treating or costumes etc. MAYBE a themed party. Which makes the whole thing weirder to me.

              I was blown away when I lived there because I LOVE Halloween :(

                3. Mary*

                  Yes – sweets and chocolate. To me, candy exclusively means something sweet and chalky, kind of like Edinburgh rock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_rock), and as a kid reading US books I was very confused why Americans were so obsessed with it that they seemed to eat it all the time to the exclusion of all other sweets!

              2. fposte*

                I was wondering if it was Canada. That could explain both the phraseology and the Halloween celebration.

                1. Lissa*

                  Yeah, I’m Canadian and almost any time there’s a letter where people say “Oh, I thought she was American from these 3 phrases, but these other 2 indicate maybe UK” I think, “Canada!” because we’re a strange mishmash of both when it comes to culture and language …

                3. Viva*

                  Yep, could be. Agree with Lissa, we’re a mishmash of both.

                  And boy, did I miss Halloween so much when I lived in the UK! It was hardly on anyone’s radar. That was disappointing because I adore Halloween.

              3. Koko*

                Hm, my UK friends have always told me that they mostly only do scary dress-up like monsters and ghouls on Halloween, not play-pretend dress-up like Disney princesses, so there’s conflicting hints in the letter about where this might have taken place.

              4. The Strand*

                I had the same thought. I can’t ever get over the Fry and Laurie sketch about Halloween (google “How to Deal with Trick or Treaters”) my Australian ex made me watch one year. The only two places I can imagine people wearing costumes to a financial firm, outside of a party, are the US and Canada.

              5. Static*

                I disagree, I’m UK born and bred and still living here and Halloween is huge! Especially in the past decade or so, when lots of culturally US things are becoming the norm here (prom for example, sweet sixteens, even heard of nurseries doing graduations for toddlers now). This Halloween almost everyone at my hospital other than the medics were dressed in costumes, the whole cafeteria was decked out in Halloween stuff, the supermarket I went to on the way home had most of its staff in costumes. And from September we have Halloween costumes and decorations and sweets shoved down our throats by shops.

                Maybe a regional thing but I spend a lot of time down south as well as living up north and I’ve not noticed a difference. So just wanted to chime in that Halloween is definitely a big deal in England.

                1. Viva*

                  I guess this is really recent then. 20 years ago I lived in Yorkshire and it just didn’t register, it was hardly a blip except for neighbours giving a few sweets to the very little kids, like toddler age. When I explained Halloween to my coworkers (how we dressed up at school, made Halloween themed crafts, went trick or treating into our teen years, decorating our lawns, sometimes dressing up at work, etc) they thought we Canadians were absolute nutters. It was disappointing.

                2. Anion*

                  We had more Trick-or-Treaters last year in our small rural English town than we did this year in the suburbs of a major US city.

                3. Floundering Mander*

                  Perhaps it is regional. I first arrived at a northern university at the beginning of October and the first weekend there were loads of students going around town in costume. I figured it was early Halloween parties but soon realized it was like that almost every weekend and for many occasions. Not just students and young people, either: stag/hen parties, cricket and football matches, birthday parties, etc etc. Maybe it’s just the city I live in but I’m sure that if I go to town this evening I’ll see at least one group of people wearing costumes.

                4. Floundering Mander*

                  I mean that I arrived at a northern university 13 years ago, not just this year! I have noticed less of it in London but many of the staff in the shops and train station were wearing costumes, or at least face paint, on Tuesday.

              6. Christopher*

                There’s no way they could fire her for this if it was the UK without inviting a lawsuit (unless she was in probation and they told her they could do it)

            3. Tuxedo Cat*

              I don’t know much about the financial sector or the OP’s location, but most folks I know in other fields have done internships where they learn very quickly what is acceptable and was not.

        2. MsMorlowe*

          It sounds a lot more like Legally Blonde 2, tbh. That she wanted to “shake up these stuffed shirts” and make them appreciate their inner child or something. I think she was probably fantasising that people would compliment her on her costume, and she’d make them all laugh and remember being children and would be publically praised for bringing a sense of fun to such a stuffy office atmosphere.

          I don’t think someone who dresses up like a princess to go to work is someone who is expecting to be fired.

          1. Fictional Butt*

            This is what I was thinking too. Someone who thinks their role in the office is Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

        3. LKW*

          I doubt it was that purposeful. I expect she thought it would be perceived as cute or silly. Not fire-worthy.

          Clearly she did not read the room.

          1. CoffeeLover*

            I guess part of me is hoping it was purposeful. In which case this is a funny story she will tell instead of just being well… sad.

            The reason I think “blaze of glory” is because we’re talking about the finance industry. It’s such a “proper” place. It’s like law. Imagine someone showing up in a princess costume to discuss serious legal matters in a big law firm. This kind of behaviour is down-right mortifying in that environment (as her director said “she’s never been more embarrassed”… kind of dramatic but w/e). I just can’t imagine anyone going through 5months (and probably having internships in finance before that), not knowing this would not be okay. I mean there’s all kinds of people, but if this lady was competent enough to get and keep the job for 5 months, I think she kind of knew this would not go well.

            Anyway though, I hope she finds work somewhere else that suits her better. This environment clearly doesn’t suit her. And I think she was kind of making a point of that.

            1. North Dakota Jones*

              This is my line of thinking too – I work in a fairly casual part of the finance industry – daily wear is usually blazer or blouses for women and men may or may not wear ties and we wear jeans on Fridays – but even here, the most anyone does for Halloween are a pair of pumpkin earrings or wearing an orange shirt. It’s just not done.

            2. LKW*

              I work in a less conservative but still corporate environment. We have a no open toed shoes, no bare arms, no capri pants dress code. I’ve had to have discussions with young women that coming to work on a Friday and dressed ready for the club (sandals, sequined tube-top with a jacket over said top) is not appropriate and taking “casual Friday” too far.

              I’ve also had to send a guy home to change because they came to work in the expected button down but visible underneath was his t-shirt that clearly said “one tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor”.

              In short – sometimes the younger simply don’t know the norms, don’t think through the impressions, or aren’t patient enough to observe before acting thinking that their youth, exuberance or cuteness excuses missteps.

            3. Nita*

              “someone showing up in a princess costume to discuss serious legal matters” – now I can’t get that divorcing couple scene in “Enchanted” out of my head!

        4. Alice's_tree*

          I wondered too, if she was trying to get fired. This seems like a Corporal Klinger kind of move.

          1. Soon to be former fed*

            Why? Just out of college, probably lots of debt. If she wanted to go she could have just quit. No need for all the foolishness, damaging her reputation in the process.

        1. Maya Elena*

          I don’t think it’s generally accepted to have a “horrible history”. I assume you mean in the context of sexual assault, but it is so much more widely used, and clearly not the context here.

          1. Kelly L.*

            Yes, because of the context of sexual assault–the phrase itself is kind of tone-deaf at this point because of that history, and the fact that it’s usually used about women’s attire. There are a million better ways to say “her attire was inappropriate for the office,” many of them elsewhere in this thread.

          2. Lehigh*

            Is it widely used? I hear it or its variants “he’s asking for it,” “she had it coming,” “you’re really asking for it” almost exclusively in the context of violence. The last one would be, for instance, that you’re asking for a beating.

    4. Zip12*

      Exactly. Just wearing a costume probably would have resulted in a stern reprimand and an instruction to go home to change clothes. Going into a meeting attended by company management and important clients, and TRICK OR TREATING, asking these folks to give you candy (!) is just flat-out bizarre. Even someone brand new to the work world should have had better common sense and judgment than to do that. I think this young woman was being fired for her spectacularly bad judgment, not for wearing a costume on Halloween.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        Doesn’t she know the rules? You look for a pumpkin. No pumpkin, no trick or treating. I’m willing to bet nobody brought a pumpkin into the meeting. So not even following correct procedure as used in appropriate trick or treating scenarios.

        1. periwinkle*

          Maybe she thought that since the lights were all on, they had candy?

          (our porch light is off every October 31 – any candy in the house is strictly for us)

          2. Specialk9*

            The conference room lights were on though, and Stan the Rotund Accountant did wear an orange shirt…

          1. Thursday Next*

            But it’s not reasonable to expect a full catalog of the rules. At a certain point, we’re all responsible to for sussing out what’s appropriate in our workplaces, based on context. Let’s say nobody explicitly announced that Halloween costumes aren’t allowed at this firm. If I’m a new graduate in my fifth month at a job, and I show up in costume on Halloween, it’s my responsibility to take note of the fact that no one else in my firm is in costume. That would be an important indicator that persisting in the Halloween spirit by trick-or-treating at the firm would be further out of sync with office culture. And doing so in front of C-suite folks and clients is tripling down on the original misstep.

            My ten-year-old can sometimes get away with saying, “But you didn’t tell me I couldn’t do that particular thing.” Sometimes. Increasingly, though, it’s his responsibility to draw conclusions from previous experiences and known rules in order to figure out what’s appropriate.

            1. Q*

              I just started a new job in June. I like dressing up for Halloween, but I asked back in September if it was okay to dress up.

            2. babblemouth*

              Yes, part of growing up is learning the skill to read a room. Not all rules are spelled out for people’s benefits, some of them need to be figured out.

            3. Mike C.*

              People aren’t mind readers and if employers aren’t willing to define their culture and their standards then others will do it for them.

              2. Jessie the First (or second)*

                But it’s really hard to argue here that the culture was not defined. It is a very rigid wear-a-complete-suit-every-single-day culture. Are you saying that every conceivable variation of life has to be spelled out for people – all the possible ways someone could theoretically “break” the culture rules? That’s not feasible in any way.

                Seriously, exactly how specific do you think an employer has to be in order to satisfy “defining the culture”?

                1. Snark*

                  And even if you totally misread the cues and come to work in costume – that’s not the mistake that got her fired. It was dumb, but understandable. If you do show up to work in costume and nobody else is wearing one and you’re getting weird looks, you haul ass to the nearest Banana Republic or home, change, and come back hoping nobody gives you crap about it.

                  But if you walk in wearing a costume, and then decide, nope, I’m just fine, these people are just stuffy, it’s time to go trick or treat in a client meeting? That is what I maintain nobody needs telling about.

              3. Someone else*

                But OP said there was a strict dress code in the handbook. So the employee took it upon herself to assume the established rules on dress do not apply on Halloween. That’s not asking her to be a mindreader. She knew the everyday rules; nobody told her there was an exception to those rules for traditional-in-some-places dress up holidays, and she did it anyway. That’s part of the reason why I kind of agree that the handbook change is sort of overkill: it explicitly says what dress is allowed and makes no mention of exceptions for Halloween, so to need to say “this dress code applies 365, no exceptions” is sort of redundant. Since there was a misunderstanding, ok fine, extra clarity is good, but it also really shouldn’t be necessary and her not knowing because the handbook didn’t already say “no Halloween costumes in the office” is not a great defense.

                1. Tuxedo Cat*

                  Even if the employee were truly ignorant of all the signs that people in this company don’t dress up for Halloween, it’s a bit surprising that grasp that she did something wrong or felt embarrassed…. Being asked to leave the meeting, the OP hinting at it in the conversation with the employee.

                2. Specialk9*

                  My dress codes have always been mum in the dress code about Halloween costumes, and yet they’ve had varying rules. Expecting someone to extrapolate Halloween and other holiday attire from the dress code is nuts.

                  I’m pretty surprised by how judgy and dogmatic people are being on this! Yeah, the kid messed up, a bit, but the managers have a serious missing link in their emotional resilience over this!

              4. Half-Caf Latte*

                I don’t think there’s anything in the letter to suggest they didn’t “define their culture and their standards.” In fact, the letter says the employee acknowledges trying to change the established “stuffy” culture.

                I read the rewriting of the handbook to be in keeping with the outsized reaction of the director, not out of any sort of logical review of the situation which concluded that if this line had existed the whole embarrassment could have been avoided. I imagined a one-liner in the (already-existing) dress code section: NO HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, AND NO TRICK-OR-TREATING.
                This will cause future generations of new employees to secretly wonder what on earth could have prompted that inclusion.

                2. the gold digger*

                  This will cause future generations of new employees to secretly wonder what on earth could have prompted that inclusion.

                  That’s the question I have every time I see a notice like “Don’t pee here” (on a wall in a public place) or “Do not use hairdryer while standing in a full bathtub.”

                3. Specialk9*

                  My company switched from Halloween costume virtually mandatory, to verboten, in one year, with nothing said. Like I literally saw green Oompa Loompas last year and they just fit in. This year, nothing, not one word. Honestly it was really weird, but somehow we all figured it out or planned costumes that could pass or easily be removed.

                  So I don’t assume that anything was said! Companies can be weird.

              5. Observer*

                But the company most definitely DID spell out it’s culture. The OP spells out some fairly strict dress code rules that ARE explicit.

                Also, there are some “rules” that should not need to be spelled out. Trick or treating in the office?! Come on, by the time you are finished college and 5 months into a corporate job, you should know that you DO NOT trick or treat in the office unless specifically told otherwise. Please don’t blame the company for not telling people who are supposed to be competent adults that they are expected to ACT like competent adults not children!

              6. Katherine*

                Really? An adult has *no* responsibility to read a room/use professional judgment?

                Also, if you want to rules-lawyer this: there was a dress code, it said you have to wear a suit every day, a princess costume is not a suit. Unless the rules stated “October 31 is an exception- you may wear a holiday costume” then there was, in fact, a rule governing this situation. If the company is responsible for micromanaging employees’ behavior with a rule to govern every eventuality, then the employee is equally responsible for not inventing exceptions to the rules and not even bothering to run them up the flagpole ahead of time.

              7. LBK*

                Come on. There’s generally no rule on the books that says don’t piss on the lobby floor but most adults can gather that that would be inappropriate. It’s not unreasonable to expect adults to draw conclusions based on evidence rather than trying to write a rule for every single situation.

                We’re not talking about someone who work a low cut shirt that was questionably appropriate for the dress code – if you’re in an office where everyone dresses in suits every day, I think you should be able to infer that showing up with more than a festive tie for Halloween is going to be out of bounds.

                1. ket*

                  But I gotta say — it’s more clear to me that you don’t wear a shirt that shows a lot of cleavage than costume on Halloween = fired! Lots of places give leeway on Halloween.

                2. LBK*

                  I dunno…I think most places wouldn’t bat an eye at you wearing festive earrings or a necklace something, but I still think wearing a full-on costume would be pretty out of place in most offices, especially one that hasn’t explicitly/actively encouraged it.

                  I made the low cut shirt comparison because that’s an area where dress codes can sometimes be a little nebulous and whether something is deemed appropriate can vary depending on someone’s body type, the rest of the outfit, etc. I’d be more miffed at being fired on the spot for someone who could have believably tried to follow the dress code and missed the mark than someone who blatantly disregarded it thinking it would be fine to make an exception.

            4. Samiratou*

              Or, yanno, asking people in the office or her boss if dressing up for Halloween is OK. I wouldn’t assume it in a casual office and definitely wouldn’t in an office with an all-formal, all-the-time dress code.

              Even in my first office job, when I was 23.

            5. LKW*

              Agreed. My experience is that in corporate life your company will give you one big sign if costumes are acceptable on Halloween. They will sponsor a costume contest. No contest = no costume.

              One of our local offices had a costume contest. About 10 people out of 60 dressed up. One of the winners dressed as ET’s Elliot with ET in the bike basket. Luckily there were no sexy costumes like “sexy copy machine” or “sexy car mechanic”.

              1. starsaphire*

                Right? I’ve worked in a *lot* of offices in my time. If the culture involves dressing up, there’s almost always a costume contest — or a potluck, or a “costume parade” in the atrium, or *something*.

                If you’re not getting emails or seeing flyers or the admin isn’t asking you what your department group costume is… chances are, your office doesn’t dress up.

                And if you’re not sure… ASK.

                I can’t imagine that she didn’t have this conversation with at least one of her co-workers. I mean, “What are you doing for Halloween?” is usually a water-cooler standard by the first week in October.

            6. Half-Caf Latte*

              “But you didn’t tell me I couldn’t do that particular thing.”

              I’ve had employees with this attitude, and who fail to connect the dots between Behavior A in Situation B, and Behavior A’ in Situation C.

              “But how was I supposed to know A’ wasn’t acceptable?”

              “Last week when A happened, we discussed how to handle these situations going forward. You agreed to X”

              “But, *inconsequential reasons* why these situations are different!”

              No, they never make the exact same mistake twice, but the inappropriate behavior can persist.

              I went through a lot to ultimately fire someone who was persistently rude. Every conversation was: “But you said before that I was yelling/aggressive/swearing/insubordinate. I’ve been so focused on not yelling, and I don’t think I snapped at IT.” She was so focused on naming specific behaviors that she failed to connect the dots to willfully ignored in order to persist in being rude.

          2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

            Huh?? That seems like the kind of bizarre behavior you shouldn’t have to tell people not to engage in, in a professional position! Shows a total lack of judgement. I can kind of excuse the costume, but asking for candy in a meeting with C-levels, directors, and clients?? She acknowledges the stuffiness of the environment, which should have been a tip off. This just seems to have come out of nowhere.

          3. Allison*

            Normally I’d agree, but I also think it’s common sense to be cautious about Halloween costumes at a new job, especially when you’re young. You ask around, you ask your peers who’ve been there for at least a year, you ask your boss “hey, do people dress up on Halloween?” It’s also common sense to figure “hey, this office is very strict about attire, and somber and serious in general, I’ll bet Halloween isn’t much of a thing here.” You take note of a lack of Hallowen pictures from previous years, and lack of email notifying you about a Halloween party that day or costume contest.

            In general, clear and well communicated rules are best. In this case, she could have figured this out on her own. She was either willfully ignorant of office norms, or she thought it would be cute to shake things up.

          4. fposte*

            I’m with you on “common sense” being a term that can be unfortunately applied, but I’m with other people in thinking that doesn’t make the firing unfair. I’m thinking of the OP who offended the boss’s wife and who wished she’d been told she was supposed to be nice to lower-power people, or the intern who told a 9/11 joke in front of a bereaved relative. Those are also behaviors that they could have been told not to do at some point, but I think those were still legitimate reasons to affect their candidacy and job.

            I think this one is a harder sell because it’s so outside of my job experience for somebody to care as much as the director even if behavior wasn’t appropriate; I’d think that was a weird followup to just about any firing reason, in fact, in that either you need a broader investigation or to let it go. But that doesn’t mean the original reason isn’t industry-valid. (That being said, the fact that it was, of all princesses, Tiana makes me hope there wasn’t something discriminatory–or, for that matter, more offensive on the costume-wearer’s part–going on.)

            1. Jesca*

              Yeah, I am not too worried about the discriminatory aspect of this. I work in a very casual office setting where a lot of people wear jeans and nice shirts most of the days. Doing something like this even here would likely get you fired, because you are specifically embarrassing the company. In many for-profit business settings, showing a certain level of seriousness and decorum around VPs and CEOs is required even in smaller to mid-size companies. And in front of clients who have this expectation as well? It would get you fired. And keep in mind, we have had people even fall asleep during meetings and not get terminated the first time, but if someone did something like this, they would be packing their stuff up that day. Cultural expectations aren’t always just the company itself. It can be the industry and its customers as well. This sounds like a place where that is expected. The firing was because they felt they could no longer trust her even in her low level position to not do things that would embarrass them and cause them to lose clients.

              1. Jesca*

                I would also like to add that yesterday the entire first floor here dressed in very elaborate costumes. They would have still been fired for behaving this way in front of clients. So to be clear, it wasn’t the costume itself. It was the behavior after walking in with a full costume that cost her the job. She didn’t read the room, and that is what did her in.

                1. fposte*

                  The behavior after being told it was wrong was pretty egregious, too. If I had been her boss, that would have tipped me strongly toward firing if I hadn’t been.

              2. CMart*

                Agreed. I work in a casual office as well, but the C-Suite works on my floor (they even have a fishbowl of fancy cubicles smack in the middle of our cube farm, in addition to their nice offices) and we are slightly dressier than other departments because of it. Engineering wears t-shirt/polos with their jeans but we wear blouses and button ups. Sales has all kinds of fun things decorating their cubes, we have family photos and the occasional birthday streamer.

              3. LBK*

                Totally agreed – we can wear jeans for our normal dress code but it’s expected that you’ll put on a suit if you have a meeting with the bigwigs, and our salespeople all still have to wear suits when they meet with clients. At a bare minimum she should’ve had a change of clothes ready for this meeting. I think it would still probably come across as totally tone deaf to show up in a costume at all but may not have been as big of a deal if she weren’t trying to sit in what sounds like a pretty serious and important meeting in a tiara.

              4. Plague of frogs*

                Agreed. I work in an office where the dress code is, “Wear clothes.” Many of us go around barefoot. We still dress up (without having to be told) when a client is coming…and none of us would trick-or-treat in a client meeting.

            2. Mike C.*

              The difference here is that I can think of lots of workplaces where dressing up for halloween is fine, but I can’t think of any where telling 9/11 jokes in front of grieving family is fine.

              1. fposte*

                But that’s because *you know that*. That intern came from places where it *was* okay, and he didn’t have the information to know that that doesn’t translate to the workplace–and nobody told him that. You’re basically trying to use an “it’s common sense” argument for the intern case.

                Nobody knows everything they need to know for their job, but we hire people who know most of what they need to know because we don’t have time to tell them everything about Excel and timely arrival and hygiene. And yes, absolutely there are class/experiential influences at play about what knowledge people, especially young people, bring to their workplace, but that doesn’t change the fact that workplaces often can’t afford to be experiential tutors at the expense of the work, whether it be because clients were disturbed by an unrepentant candy-beggar in a meeting or because somebody told an offensive joke. (Or because somebody claims to have grown up in a time when it was okay to do bad stuff.)

                The broad rule I’d teach youngsters from this: when you’re on somebody else’s dime, assume stuffiness until it’s explicitly told or demonstrated to you that loosening up, and in your particular way of loosening up, is okay. When told you got it wrong, admit error and apologize.

                1. Jesca*

                  And yeah, in some institutions, particularly ones who handle large sums of money, it can be just as offensive to a client to tell a tasteless 9/11 joke as it is to barge into a meeting and “trick or treat” to huge clients and execs. To a lot of firms, they can be equal in scope, as it shows you cannot read room and can pretty insensitive to people’s needs. While sure one is a lot more emotionally insensitive, the bottom line is the same. Bad judgement that can be shocking enough to cost clients.

              2. Jesmlet*

                It’s not just dressing up though. It’s dressing up, walking into an important meeting with clients and upper management, asking for candy, then not feeling any sort of remorse or understanding of why the behavior was inappropriate. Even if I wasn’t planning on firing her up until that point, if she told me she “didn’t see what the problem was and wanted to bring fun into to our stuffy office”, that attitude would’ve gotten her fired immediately.

              3. Kate 2*

                But there are lots of workplaces where dressing up isn’t fine. I should think that a workplace that requires full suits every day and bans something as minor as open-toed shoes, shouldn’t have to tell employees they can’t come to work in silly costumes and demand candy from the CEO and major clients.

              4. aebhel*

                There are plenty of places where showing up in jeans and a t-shirt is fine, too, but that doesn’t make it appropriate in a business formal environment where it’s explicitly prohibited by the dress code.

            3. yasmara*

              @fposte, I wondered that too because both Michonne and Tiana are Black women. I really hope “doesn’t fit into our corporate culture” isn’t some kind of code for “she’s a minority woman.”

              That said, I have never dressed up at work ever and my offices haven’t even been that formal – business casual 99% of the time except in direct F2F client interactions.

              1. fposte*

                To be clear, I think the employee’s actions went from off-key, to seriously wrong-footing, to bad. A costume in my office would be fine, but doubling down when told you shouldn’t have invaded a meeting would have me thinking about firing as well–if I can’t trust my staff to accept feedback and correction, that’s a big thing.

                But it’s in the OP, it didn’t have to be in the OP, so I’m not closing the door just yet on that factor.

              2. Koko*

                I wondered, too, if this was a case where a white woman would have gotten a write-up/probation/discipline of some kind but a black woman just got the ax. It wouldn’t be the first time that a POC got less leniency than a white person doing the same thing.

                2. AMPG*

                  I wondered this, as well. I think her behavior was clearly WAY out of line, but I do wonder if they brought the hammer down because they were less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt than someone in a different demographic.

                3. Dankar*

                  Same. I hesitate to dwell on that angle, since it’s kind of immaterial to the OP’s question (it’s likely she was fired for her behavior, rather than the costume itself), but this is another instance where it might behoove everyone involved to question what their reaction would have been to the same situation with a white employee.

                  All that being said, the whole situation does read as an overreaction.

                4. Observer*

                  Well, as someone who did not know who Princess Tian is before I read this, I can say that I thought that firing was NOT an over-reaction as soon as I read the entire thing.

                5. Jesmlet*

                  No, as a minority myself, I would’ve fired her if she’d dressed up as Mulan, Moana, Belle, Jasmine, or whatever Disney princess corresponded to her race.

                7. LBK*

                  I don’t think you can necessarily rule it out, but I think being young was probably also a strong contributor to not being given a second chance – someone 5 months out of college probably isn’t too hard to replace, so there’s less thought put into whether it’s worth cutting her over something like this.

                9. Specialk9*

                  I didn’t know those two characters were black, and I thought the hysterical director who had NEVER BEEN SOoOoOo EMBARASSED IN MY LIIIIIFE!!!!!11!!!!!! was a wacko. Other people seem to have known they were black characters, AND thought the reaction was reasonable. I think it’s worth asking the question about subtle bias.

                10. MillersSpring*

                  Personally, I would be inclined to look out for and support a direct report who’s a POC so that they can avoid wrong footing. Office cultural issues can be particularly confusing or unclear if you and those close to you do not have experience in conservative offices. This has come up in comments to other posts.

                11. LBK*

                  @MillersSpring – There’s a pretty interesting episode from the first season of Insecure that address that topic, one of the characters (a black female lawyer) tries to coach a new black female employee on her professionalism and there’s all kinds of nuanced racial elements to it.

              3. Nita*

                Maybe this is why they’re planning to write the “no costumes” thing into the employee handbook, so acting on it doesn’t open them to discrimination accusations in the future. Not that it seems likely they’ll have to act on it ever again, considering that no one has dressed up in 15 years before the Princess Incident.

          5. ClownBaby*

            My company’s handbook would be 500+ pages if we had to include a rule about everything.

            At OP’s company, I would assume if there is a strict, business professional dress code, that I am expected to follow that. If the company allowed for costumes at Halloween, or if they allowed for ugly Holiday Sweaters in December, someone would send a memo the week before saying “Hey guys, wear your favorite costume/ugliest sweater!). I don’t need a rule in the handbook saying “This is the dress code. And remember, it sticks even on Halloween.”

            It’s probably just poor judgment, immaturity, or lack of common sense on her part. Or she was trying to cause a scene.

            If someone from my company decides to pick his nose and flick boogers at our VP’s window, I don’t think him saying “It’s not in the handbook that I can’t do that” would be much of a defense.

            1. AKchic*

              At my last company, one of the upper managers tried to get written in “no funky earrings” because he saw me wearing my dragon cuff earring on a weekend outside of work hours and was mortified that I might actually wear it to the office some day.
              He kept trying to get us to look very corporate and stuffy. It never did get into the handbook, but whenever we had a special event going on, I was reminded by both him and my direct supervisor (as if I’d wear it) about appropriate attire. In the 8 years I’d been there, I never once dressed inappropriately, so I’m not sure why they thought I’d come to work dressed like some kind of Pretty Woman wannabe, but there you go.

              1. fposte*

                I hope “funky” would have been followed by an amazing bullet-pointed list of what constituted funky.

                1. AKchic*

                  It would have been a great laugh, to be sure! The two men in C-suite roles were very stuffed-shirt to the point that if they could have dictated that all women wear high-collared shirts or turtlenecks to avoid any hint of cleavage, they would have (many of us were very well-endowed).
                  I was specifically banned from dying my hair any “odd” color, but one of the ladies in the finance department dyed her hair crayon red and nobody batted an eye. I think it was just MY particular boss at the time just didn’t want to see it, so he made a bunch of ridiculous dress code rules specifically for me since I am a volunteer actor.
                  The CEO loved my League of Evil Exes t-shirt. We both had been married 3 times.

          6. Anony*

            For wearing the costume, maybe. Going into a meeting to trick or treat is not normal in most offices. Her explanation that she was trying to make the stuffy office more fun makes it clear that she knew that it was out of place in that office. The fact that after her boss talked to her she still didn’t understand that she was out of line makes it even worse. She was told and still didn’t see it as a problem.

          9. paul*

            There’s some rules you generally accept that people understand; things like “no punching the wall” and “no pooping in the potted plants.” Trick or treating in a work meeting isn’t as extreme as those but it’s getting up there.

            1. Kelly L.*

              So if a Disney princess poops in your potted plants, is it rainbow and sparkly? Or is that just unicorns?

          10. Karo*

            But, as someone else pointed out, she did this with the stated intention of “shaking things up” because the firm was “stuffy.” That means she DID know the rules and ignored them.

            1. JulieBulie*

              I think the words “shaking things up” were the final nail in her coffin. “Shaking things up” is really not within the worker bees’ purview. If you’re not a manager, then shaking things up is insubordination. In fact, I once had a coworker who tried to “shake things up” by attempting to organize a mutiny against his managers. (He was unsuccessful.)

          11. AKchic*

            She’s had 20+ years of watching her parents, and seeing others commute on October 31st and seeing the majority of adults NOT dress up to go to work, I’m sure.

            I love Halloween, but not everyone else dresses up, some because they don’t want to, some because they aren’t allowed to. It’s up to the adults to figure out why the other adults in the building aren’t dressing up on a specific dress-up day. She’s not so special that she should have required a special memo in her lunch box for Mommy and Daddy.

            1. fposte*

              Though one point worth remembering is that not everybody has had years of watching their parents and others commute into an office on October 31.

          12. Susanne*

            She clearly knew the rules about the dress code — there’s nothing suggesting that (until this incident) she was wearing clothing inappropriate for this company’s dress code. C’mon. I know you like to be devil’s advocate and always look to Stick It To The Man, but this is a clear-cut case of someone making an extremely poor judgment call and then doubling down on it when challenged.

          13. aebhel*

            If it’s in the employee handbook, and she got a copy of the handbook, then someone did tell her.

            Anyway ‘anything not explicitly banned is acceptable’ is a pretty bad approach to take in… most aspects of life, honestly, but especially conservative work environments.

      3. Karo*

        What bothered me more than any of that was her adamant refusal that she had done NOTHING wrong. I can’t get over that.

    5. KarenT*

      I agree, although firing still seems like an overreaction to me. The trick or treating is just bizarre, and even those brand new to the workforce would know not to do it. After five months she must have been able to pick up on how seriously the company takes client meetings. And I think there’s a bit of entitlement in an employee of five months (new grad or no) taking it upon themselves to change a company’s culture.

      1. eplawyer*

        It kinda reminds me of the interns who didn’t like the dress code so started a petition after being told no. This office is quite clear on the dress code. LW says it is strictly enforced. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would look around and KNOW any deviation would not be met kindly. But she did it anyway because she knows best.

        Also like the guy who broke the keyboard to get his co-worker to type the way he thought. It is not new employees job to change the work culture, unless they have been hired specifically to do so.

        1. eplawyer*

          Hit send too soon.

          Both of those examples got fired for the same reason — not the specific thing they did but the spectacular lack of good judgment in doing what they did. Same here. It’s not so much the costume, it’s the thinking that trick or treating at an office meeting is acceptable. Even unstuffy office would not be amused at this lack of professionalism.

    6. Kate*

      I was iffy on the firing because of all the reasons you mentioned. If she was an otherwise stellar employee, I’d say maybe the firing was a little harsh, but if she was even just average, their culture seems uptight enough that this was a BIG deal.

      The director’s reaction still baffles me though. It’s not like she did dress up as Michonne, katanas and all. She wore a Halloween costume on Halloween. Is that really so out there that he can’t wrap his head around it? Send a notice out next Halloween reminding people they are not allowed to wear costumes and be done with it.

        1. periwinkle*

          The director no doubt really wanted to also placate her boss AND the C-suite, all of whom were apparently pressuring her for some reason why this new employee behaved like this (which explains why the director is pressuring the OP for some reasons).

          The new employee’s behavior would have raised a ton of concerns at my org. We are not hugely uptight about dress codes – and I saw co-workers in low-key costumes – but that doesn’t mean I would wear a Halloween costume on a day when I’m scheduled to meet with senior management, let alone with executives AND important customers.

          1. Anion*

            At one of my old jobs, an employee made a slightly inappropriate comment during a meeting with the higher-ups; nothing ribald or offensive, just a tad rebellious. It was a huge deal for a couple of weeks, because it made the higher-ups (who were pretty stiff) wonder what exactly was going on with that team/on that shift, that said employee thought that was an okay thing to say. Managers got called to the carpet and everything.

            Nobody got fired–it wasn’t as big a misstep as the person in the letter–but yeah, there are definitely places where the behavior of an employee raises alarms about the whole team.

        2. Caro in the UK*

          The director’s reaction screams of extreme humiliation to me. She sounds seriously, mortifyingly embarassed, and is desperate for it not to happen again. And how can you stop something happening again if you don’t know why it happened in the first place? So she’s panicking and pressuring the LW for the employee’s reasons, which she can then try to control in future.

          Whether or not the director’s level of embarassment is proportional to the employee’s actions, I’m not entirely sure. It really depends on the office culture, the pressure from above and the clients’ reactions.

          1. One of the Sarahs*

            Yeah, I bet she feels somehow responsible because it was someone in her line of management. She could be thinking it reflects badly on her, but in a “how did I fail to make it clear this is not ok?” way.

            1. overly produced bears*

              Yeah, my initial reaction was “wow, something was going on behind the scenes, possibly not even involving this employee but just involving this structure, and this was the Last Straw”.

          3. Important Moi*

            Just because the director’s reaction screams of extreme humiliation and she’s understandingly wanting answers, I’m don’t think that there’s really anything the OP could say that would allow “controlling the prevention of this happening in the future.” I think OP can apologize, offer to speak to C-level folks (director will probably decline that), promise to thoroughly review the dress code when onboarding new employees. OP should keep doing this until director settles down. At some point, crap just happens and everything can’t be “controlled” in that way.

            1. Tuxedo Cat*

              I second this. I was in a workplace where literally 2 employees did some really blatantly obvious no-nos. These are things like not doing any work, sharing research notes that they were explicitly told to share, losing paperwork, and so on. The director went above and beyond (and then some) to try to prevent these situations from happening again.

              We were working professionals who several years of experience. Everyone felt micromanaged and offended, because the office had years of good work without constantly being check on. Before leaving, I used to joke how one or two people really can make a difference.

            2. Caro in the UK*

              Oh yeah, I should have been clearer about that. I totally agree. There’s no point in the director repeatedly asking this question, you can’t foresee (and control) everything! I was just thinking about why she might be behaving in this way in the first place, which could be helpful info for the LW.

      2. Sara smile*

        I worked in financial services for nearly a decade. My mouth is hanging open here. I am not baffled by the director’s reaction at all. Dressing up for Halloween is so far out of those professional norms, it isn’t on the same planet. It would never even occur to me to state this wasn’t allowed because it is so far out of those norms. It is just not. done.

        I actually disagree with Alison in her answer. I don’t think it is weird she was fired, even if there were no other signs. I don’t think the outrage is strange or overreacting. I think it would be super odd to specifically communicate to other employees that you don’t dress up — it’s like saying don’t come to work in only your underwear. I think the industry is everything here and to compare financial services to other offices where dressing up is ok just totally misses the culture.

        1. Martina Marprelate*

          Even in financial services there is a spectrum however. I used to work for a rather stuffy financial services firm, dealing with the wealthy clients of a major bank, and people did dress up for Halloween if they wanted to. Sometimes very elaboratively.

          1. Gen*

            Same. We full on decorated for every holiday. High level managers tended to wear subtle costumes (80s suit and Patrick Bateman business cards for example) or stuff they could take off easily for meetings so a ball gown might have been a bit off but since she’s lower level probably not.

            Different managers can have strong views on clothes though, I know one who wanted to discipline his high level staff for taking part in the xmas sweater charity event that the *CEO* had set up. They’re financial services too and he’s forbidden ties for men in his department unless they’re in a client meeting.

              2. Teacher*

                I’m thinking the CEO who set up the sweater party also forbade ties, not the boss who disciplined for the sweaters. That’s the only way I can make sense of it, although the ascots are another good guess.

              3. Gen*

                His (bizarre) reasoning is that ties make you look too self-important but xmas sweaters look too silly and informal like you don’t take the job seriously. He’s one of those odd British men who wants to pretend he’s still working class

            3. Amber T*

              I also work in financial services with a much more lenient dress code but Halloween costumes are not allowed. My first year I think I wore cat ears and drew a little nose on my face while wearing all black (appropriate) clothing and was told immediately to take it off. Agree that it varies both ways, which is why it’s important to check with your coworkers on the culture.

              1. Specialk9*

                BUT WHY AMBER T?! HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME?? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? I’VE NEVER BEEN SO HUMILIATED IN MY LIFE!! (breaks down sobbing brokenly on the floor)

          2. Cloud 9 Sandra*

            I also work in financial services and we were allowed to wear costumes. Granted, it’s California. However, the director said in a meeting a week before that costumes were allowed, and the operations manager let everyone know through email there would be a contest. I never would have dressed up if I didn’t know it was okay.

          3. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            Yeah – I work in financial services. Last place I worked had a pretty informal dress code, but dressing up on Halloween would really be looked down on (we had a lot of meetings with foreign, particularly Asian investors or ocmpanies, so something that stood out – like a princess costume – would be a huge no-no). My current firm is much more formal in our everyday dress code, but for whatever reason the company goes ALL OUT on Halloween. They do a huge thing where each floor decorates (this year we had a Wizard of Oz themed floor, and Emoji-land floor and one floor with a working carousel), employees rent legit costumes and everyone brings their kids.

            It’s super cool, but not at all what I expected on my first year here.

            Obviously the employee should have asked and probably should have sensed that this was a bad idea, but I have sympathy for her. She months out of school.

            1. CBH*

              Sunshine on a cloudy day. I totally agree with everything you said. I’ve worked in very conservative companies and very relaxed ones too. What gets me, if this office is “stuffy” year round, did she really think that people were going to full out in costumes on Halloween? Especially one where important clients seem to have a similar stuffy dress code. Even months out of school, it kind of baffles me that she would not have even considered this a “maybe I should ask someone what holiday dress consists of” question.

              1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

                Well that was kind of my point – if I (someone with 10+ years of office experience and 2-3 years in that industry already) was suprised by my firm’s take on Halloween (in my case it was way more pro-costume than I would have ever imagined for being pretty stuffy in its day-to-day), I can totally get how someone with months of experience would struggle with this.

                Yeah – she should have erred on the side of caution, paid closer attention to the culture/dress code and definitely run it by someone, anyone! I’m just not really agreeing with the idea that she definitely, 100%, totally should have know better.

            2. Koko*

              Months out of school, and if she’s first-generation college, may not have had the same exposure to white-collar office norms that even straight-out-of-college children of white-collar workers do.

              1. AMPG*

                Yes, this. The idea that “everyone knows” X or Y about corporate culture assumes some familiarity with the culture before taking a job there.

              2. Myrin*

                I’d argue that she doesn’t need any kind of exposure to white-collar office norms to conclude from her emplyoer’s regular dresscode – which dictates wearing a full suit every day! – that it maybe wouldn’t be the best idea to show up in a Disney gown. Or to at least realise upon arrival that no one but her is dressed up and to then discreetly ask a coworker about it or to excuse herself to go get new clothes or similar.

                1. AMPG*

                  No, I definitely agree with you that this was extremely poor judgment on her part, especially doubling down to argue that she didn’t do anything wrong. I was just trying to push back a bit on the idea that this is the type of thing “everyone knows,” because that’s just not true.

                2. Koko*

                  Maybe, but I think also maybe not. For instance, if her primary exposure to office norms was through television, it’s very common for TV characters to wear costumes to work on Halloween, even the lawyers and other serious professions. Shows do it because it’s entertaining television, but it’s not that far-fetched that someone might not realize it’s not as common as TV makes it look if they never had a dad who came home from work in a suit every day or talking about how hard his boss was on him for this and that little thing. And what someone said above about the asking for candy being a nervous reaction to embarrassment seems plausible. Not saying that this definitely explains what happened, but it’s a possible explanation.

              3. Observer*

                My parents were not white collar workers either, but I still would have known better at that stage.

                You don’t need white collar experience to understand that if the daily dress code is this strict, holiday dress up is probably not ok. And you CERTAINLY don’t need that background to get that trick or treating is a totally No-No.

              4. Jesmlet*

                Dress code is suit every day… wouldn’t a normal person at least ask before showing up in an elaborate costume?

              5. Kate 2*

                My parents didn’t have white collar jobs, no one in my family has ever graduated from college, and I knew better! It’s not an excuse. Especially not for everything she did after she showed up and saw no one else was in Halloween costumes.

        2. Hey Karma, Over Here*

          My experience in a financial org is like this. To the point if it being legendary in my city. “Oh, you are interviewing THERE? They are so uptight. Dress code, dress code, dress code.”
          A Halloween costume? Nope. Not Done. Including company wide emails reminding people it’s Not Done. Now I know why.

        3. The Other Dawn*

          I’m in banking and I find it varies. My previous bank was fairly formal and it would have been out of the norm to dress up, while my current one (and another I worked at) is much more laid back. The tellers are allowed to dress up for Halloween as long as they don’t wear anything that would prohibit movement or cover their face. Even in the admin offices/departments we’re allowed to dress up. Some dress up and others don’t.

        4. ClownBaby*

          I agree. My office is mostly business-casual (upper management must dress more professionally) and I can’t fathom someone showing up in a costume, though there is no rule in our handbook barring it. The most halloween-y I saw anyone, was our “kooky” accountant wearing pumpkin-shaped earrings.

        5. AndersonDarling*

          “it’s like saying don’t come to work in only your underwear.”
          I was thinking along these lines, you don’t need to tell your staff not to come to work in sexy lingerie on Valentines Day. There are some things you expect your staff to pick up on their own regarding the office culture. In this case, it seems the Princess’s enthusiasm overruled any logical observations.

        6. JayneCobb*

          Agreed, from my perspective working in another financial services office. Alison’s reaction demonstrates extreme naivete regarding our industry. I could see something like a personal banking branch being open to tellers wearing costumes, but absolutely not at an office that deals with private funds and high net worth clients. And the fact that this employee burst into a C-suite meeting (!) with clients (!!) to which she was not invited (!!!) for anything less than a warning of imminent danger is absolutely unthinkable. And to do so in costume (!!!!) to ask for candy (!!!!!)??? OMG, of course this employee was fired.

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            Yeah, this is my impression. Every industry will have variations in culture from office to office, of course there are some more casual/hip/fun finance offices, but OP1’s office doesn’t sound “unusually uptight” at all. It sounds very normal for finance.

          2. Specialk9*

            It’s really ambiguous whether she was invited to the meeting or crashed it. That makes a big difference.

            Invited, walk in “oh fudge, nobody else is in costume, I feel like an idiot, ok just try to brazen it out” and then later hoping to argue out of being in trouble rather than groveling.

            Burst in uninvited, ok, I got no defense of her.

          1. Matilda Jefferies*

            Yeah, the director needs to let it go. Obviously OP has no idea what her employee was thinking, and she has made that clear. And the employee is gone, so there’s really no further action to take here – it’s not like OP is running around the office authorizing secret Halloween parties or anything.

            On the other hand, this letter was probably written later in the day on Tuesday, or certainly no later than Wednesday – so really only a day or so after the incident. Chances are the director has already settled down a bit. I’d give her until the end of the week, and then if she’s still talking about it on Monday, maybe the OP could ask her if there’s anything else that needs to be done “to wrap this up” (or some other polite way of saying “can we drop the subject already?”)

        8. LQ*

          I agree. There is a dress code that says everyone has to wear a suit. You don’t have to negatively say every thing thing that people are not allowed to wear to have it be clear that you have to wear a suit because it says you have to wear a suit.
          Should I wear this to work? It is a suit? –Yes–> Wear it to work
          —No–> Don’t wear it to work

          End.
          You don’t have to say don’t wear a dress made of post its to work because that’s not a suit.

          And if your environment is such that people are not allowed to wear any other kind of not suit then why would you think an off the shoulder princess halloween costume is acceptable? That’s such a vast, vast lack of judgement that it would be like showing up to work in only your underwear at a business casual environment. Baffling.

        9. Kate*

          I’ll admit that when I first read this letter, I was imagining the director harping on this for days, which is why I thought it was weird, but given that Halloween was only 2 days ago, obviously that was not the case. So, that was my bad. FWIW, I agree that the firing was not over the top. I understand why the director was upset. I’m a contractor that works at sites with varying degrees of stuffiness, and I was shocked to see people dressed in full costumes on Tuesday. Typically, I’ve seen people wear more low key holiday accessories (scarves, earrings, ties, etc.), but I would have assumed costumes were not OK. But is still doesn’t seem like the type of thing that requires you to get to the “root cause” of the problem before you can fix it. A simple reminder saying, “This is not OK” before the holiday next year should do. If someone shows up in costume after that, it’s not that the directors didn’t do their part to prevent it. It that you have a insubordinate employee.

        10. JulieBulie*

          The only reason I don’t disagree with the firing is because the employee said she was trying to shake things up. It is not her place to shake things up. That attitude smacks of insubordination.

          What I don’t get is why the director seems to be losing sleep over why the employee did this. From the letter, it sounds as though the director didn’t do the firing personally… therefore she wasn’t able to ask this for herself. But if you really want to know this kind of thing about someone, you can’t ask a third party to find out for you. So I think the director should let it go. (And in all fairness, I think this is what is really bugging OP, that the director is still obsessing over it.)

          1. Shandon*

            If she is the director of that division of the company then ultimately the actions of those below her reflect on her and that part of the company. The letter says that it was one of the C-suite who immediately told the employee to leave, so she’s probably catching considerable heat from them, and possibly from irate clients as well. She’s likely desperately trying to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

        11. Cringing 24/7*

          Agreed. I’ve worked in several different institutions within financial services and only in one was it ever okay to dress up (I didn’t – not my thing), but there, it was talked about beforehand because people wanted to share costume ideas or just have something to talk about.
          Even in the strict, no-dressing up institutions, a year never went by that someone new didn’t ask if it’s okay and have everyone tell them, ‘no.’ I just can’t imagine that she didn’t ask and then decide to do it anyway to bring “fun” to the “stuffy office.”

        12. Kate 2*

          Yep! You really have to be able to trust the people handling your money. You want them to be serious, honest, trustworthy, smart (if not brilliant), and on the ball. Fair or not, one slip up can ruin a client relationship. And this was a huge lack of judgement, a very big embarrassment. Do you really want this person to be anywhere near your life savings? Anywhere near your retirement money?

          1. Kate 2*

            ETA: My experience is in high level finance, think accounts ranging from tens of thousands to a million or so.

            1. Michael*

              And if she was working corporate finance on Wall Street, chances are the accounts being discussed are closer to the order of tens to hundreds of millions.

              My girlfriend does international M&A and is working on a $1.2 billion acquisition at the moment. You don’t want the person leading that effort to be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl wanna-be.

              1. Glass Houses*

                Not to put a fine point on it, but you also don’t want the person leading that effort to be slipping her significant other major details of transactions/deal sizes.

      3. BethRA*

        Eh, she wore a Halloween costume on Halloween…at a firm with a strict dress code where even she knew they gave no leeway (Tiana herself found the place “stuffy” and wanted to shake it up)…and showed up at a client meeting and asked for candy.

        We’re a pretty casual non-profit, and people have dressed up at Halloween, but if soemone walked into a donor meeting or the like, there would be Much Consternation in the land.

      4. Clewgarnet*

        My office is very casual, and strongly encourages dressing up for Halloween. (Most people don’t, but there are some who do.)

        If somebody tried to go trick-or-treating in a meeting with C-suite, directors and clients, they’d be out the door. And this is the UK where firing is more difficult. (They’d maybe get away with it if they were reverse trick-or-treating by handing out sweets. Even so, they’d have a come-to-Jesus talk with their manager, head of department and HR.)

      5. Kate 2*

        In an office where open toed shoes are banned and full suits are required of every employee every day???!!! You bet it’s out there.

        Not to mention the fact that, after she showed up at work and saw no one else was dressed up, she walked into a meeting (where she may or may not have been supposed to be) with the CEO and other C-levels, important clients, and demanded candy!

        Then, when her outrageous actions were addressed, not only didn’t she apologize or explain she called the office “stuffy” and said she wanted to change the culture.

        Honest question, why are you surprised she got fired?

    7. Susan Calvin*

      Agreed. I was really surprised that Alison though the firing was overboard – the other internal fall-out is strange, but getting rid of someone who *deliberately crashed a high level client meeting*? Totally expected. I’d expect that even from my employer, and we’re very much a jeans-and-geeky-graphic-tee kind of place.

      Maybe she thought it was an internal-only meeting..? Which would’ve still been bad, but maybe a hair below fireable in my book – otherwise, I’ve got nothing.

      1. Snowglobe*

        One thing I wasn’t clear on in the letter-was she supposed to be at that meeting, or did she crash a meeting she wasn’t even invited to? Because it’s bad enough to show up at a client meeting dressed like that, asking for candy(!), but if she intentionally crashed someone else’s meeting, that’s practically sabotage.

        1. Jesmlet*

          5 months out of college… odds are pretty high that she crashed. Not likely that a lower level employee would’ve been invited to a meeting like that.

          1. Specialk9*

            We have all-group meetings with C-levels and directors. We don’t really have clients on-site, so I don’t have an equivalent, but a meeting with a wide range of levels isn’t implausible to me.

      2. Lora*

        Yeah, I work in a field where the higher up you are, the more likely you are to be wearing jeans and a sweatshirt to work – but NEVER in a financial or client meeting. If you are presenting to clients, you put on at least a nice shirt and jacket. And NOBODY goes into the big conference rooms reserved for client meetings, unless they are the client host, the meeting presenters, the clients or the caterer. Nobody. If the projector isn’t working and they have to let the IT guy in, they want him gone immediately.

        +1000 that if she’d crashed the client meeting in regular clothes it still would have been a firing offense.

    8. The Other Dawn*

      I completely agree. Absent the executive level, major client meeting, she likely would have been reprimanded and sent home to change. But going into a meeting, especially THAT kind of meeting, is really, really bad; to be honest, I might have fired someone over that, too.

      This is just a side rant: “The director keeps on asking me why my employee would do this and what she was thinking…”

      This is probably one of the things I despise most about being a manager. I get that I’m responsible for my team and I take the heat when things go wrong, but it drove me bonkers when a former boss would ask me questions like this. How the F should I know?? Sure, sometimes you can explain what you think is going on, or why someone might have done something a particular way (depending on what happened), but sometimes you just can’t because the team member just spontaneously takes it upon themselves to do something so off the wall there’s just no way to know WTH they were thinking. (Yes, it’s happened before.)

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Also, I agree with Alison that OP really should make sure new hires know the culture. I work in financial services, also. My previous bank was more formal, while my current one is much more laid back and does “business casual” (though to some that seems to mean weekend casual…). Financial services is still one of those industries that tends to be quite conservative and is slow to change, in my experience, so I think it’s important that the OP makes sure new hires know that, especially if they are new to the industry/just out of school.

        1. Kris*

          I’m also in a conservative field (legal) where expectations are sometimes unspoken and can vary between workplaces (and even within workplaces). Halloween and casual Friday can be a minefield. I regularly manage student interns and externs and I make sure to give them candid, specific advice about how to manage expectations in our office.

      2. Queen of the File*

        > This is just a side rant: “The director keeps on asking me why my employee would do this and what she was thinking…”

        This triggered me too. I hate wasting energy trying to formally explain/justify mistakes like this. Of course it’s a good idea to check to make sure there isn’t a larger issue that needs to be addressed, but sometimes people just mess up and it’s out of our control. Asked and answered, let’s move on please.

      3. Robin Sparkles*

        Oh god yes -I caught onto that as well. I had a boss like this who would go on and on and on- never seem satisfied with my responses. It’s really frustrating and my only advice to the LW is to keep reiterating that based on her past behavior and actions there was nothing to indicate she would do this. Reassure her that you are taking the steps to make sure you didn’t miss anything so that you can be on the lookout for the future. Perhaps emphasize the culture and dress code when interviewing new employees. Perhaps remind her that it is just 5 months and really -how much can you know about someone in that short of a time.

        Make sure you really do your due diligence before you say that you absolutely had no clue because I have to be honest, the mistake of showing up dressed up is innocent enough but it’s the trick or treating in an executive and client meeting that goes beyond the boundaries of office culture that make me wonder if you really didn’t have any other signs.

    9. a Gen X manager*

      YES, THIS, periwinkle. The trick-or-treating?! omg. the costume could be chalked up to a misunderstanding, but the t&t’g and not understanding the audience is the real issue.

      Isn’t it likely that the employee saw other people on her way to the meeting room? No one asked her WTF? Not even a receptionist or desk mate, someone?

    10. Matilda Jefferies*

      Yeah, it was like a series of pennies dropping as I read through the post.

      (Headline) Oh, she was fired for wearing a costume to work? Huh, must read more.
      (Subhead) Oh, she was fired for wearing a costume, and also trick or treating in a meeting. Okay, still reading…
      (Body) Financial services, with a formal dress code? Yeah, this is becoming a problem.
      (Body continues) Wait, she was trick or treating in a meeting with the C-suite?? Yikes.
      (Body continues) AND CLIENTS?!?!?!

      And then she didn’t even understand why what she did was so wrong. I agree that under other circumstances, firing her would probably have been an over-reaction. But this was just layer upon layer of bad judgement, which ended with the CEO being embarrassed in front of clients. I mean, maaaaybe there’s a way to come back from that, but I can totally get why they might have wanted her gone right away.

      The good news, I imagine, is that she’ll only make this mistake once. What a learning experience for her.

        1. SoCalHR*

          I actually thought I would get reprimanded once for taking of my suit jacket in a client meeting (when I had a work-appropriate shirt underneath). I knew my boss probably thought it was unprofessional, but I also didn’t thing that sweating profusely in the steaming office was professional either.

        1. Lissa*

          hopefully at least that this type of “stuffy” workplace is not going to tolerate the behavior, even if her takeaway is “they should have been fine with it”, maybe she’ll realize it’s not the environment for her…

    11. Kelly O*

      I was hoping I wasn’t the only one thinking this was a serious case of tone-deafness. It sounds like not only is this very thing addressed in the handbook, which the employee should read and understand, but instead of realizing there was an important meeting and staying hidden, she made herself more visible than would be appropriate.

      Companies show you their culture, and those cultures can be changed, but just a few months on the job is not the time to press those issues. I saw many people in work-appropriate “costumes” that mainly involved something that could easily be removed or something that was simply regular clothes framed differently.

      Our office is conservative. No one here dressed up. It’s not explicitly forbidden in the handbook but is more a matter of our office culture. I agree with the decision to let her go, and I sincerely hope this young woman learns from her experience so her next job has a happier ending.

    12. aebhel*

      Yeah, I suspect that the personal embarrassment to the director was a big aspect of it. Just wearing the costume was a piece of bad professional judgement, but not a fireable offense in itself, IMO. But wearing the costume to a meeting with important clients, the line about trick-or-treating, and her total lack of remorse about it… I can see why she was fired.

      I’m actually surprised that this was the first questionable thing she’s done, just because it seems so outside the norm. And I’m speaking as a librarian; wearing costumes to work is totally normal and acceptable behavior in my office. If you work in a stuffy office and you want to celebrate Halloween, get a Halloween-themed pin, or something.

    13. Artemesia*

      I’m guessing if she had passed out candy treats to everyone, she might also just have gotten a reprimand; begging for treats from people who obviously have no treats to give sort of triples the awkward.

  3. KatieKate*

    I am an under 30 who always uses “reaches out.” I think I like it because it’s softer and friendlier than “contact” and most of my emails go to community partners or donors.

    1. Ted Mosby*

      Me too. I also work for a prestigious professional services firm and many over 35 people use it there. Don’t correct people on this. It’s not a mistake, and would be largely seen as obnoxious. I don’t know anyone under 35 trying to save three key strokes. We’re fast typers.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        It is a mistake. It’s just not one you’re making by accident.

        Signed: someone who hates this phrase.

          1. Jen S. 2.0*

            I’m not as bothered by “reach out,” but the aggressive overuse of “impact” these days has my teeth on edge. People usually mean affect, effect, result, change, or influence. And when did “impactful” become a word?

            Sorry, off topic. Carry on.

            1. You're Not My Supervisor*

              For me it’s “optics.” Drives me crazy. Isn’t it strange how an innocuous use of an inoffensive word can bother us so much?

              1. Nico m*

                I don’t like it because if you are not doing/ doing something just for appearances sake then have the guts to admit it

              2. Beancounter Eric*

                Optics is the study of the properties and behavior of light………better word would be “appearance”.

                And “reach out”……grrrrr!!!

              3. Koko*

                These threads always used to fascinate me because I can honestly say that for 30+ years of my life, I couldn’t think of a single word or phrase that bothered me this way. If I understand you and you’re not being rude, I have a really wide open range of how I’ll accept you communicating to me. I often find linguistic quirks charming, even.

                Until this year. I now hate a word, and that word is nothingburger. I can’t explain why it gets under my skin so viscerally. I could try to explain that the word burger seeems to come out of nowhere and why isn’t it nothingcouch or nothingpencil, but logic doesn’t really explain why I hate that word so much.

                That said, I reach out all the time ;)

                1. fposte*

                  That is entirely hilarious to me :-). I find that as I get older neologisms bug me less, probably because of seeing some of them come and go and others get normalized (and also because I like a little novelty). But I may yet find a “nothingburger” of my own.

                2. Queen of the File*

                  Yes! I have one of those too. “Easy peasy, lemon squeezy”. There is no reason this should bother me more than ‘awesomesauce’ or any other trendy little blip on the language radar, but it drives me up the wall.

                4. crookedfinger*

                  Huh, I’ve never heard of “nothingburger” before. Without looking it up, it sounds like a plain burger with no condiments or toppings. lol

                  The only word that bothers me these days is “irregardless” because why would you add an additional syllable to a word that doesn’t change the meaning in any way??

                5. Koko*

                  @crookedfinger

                  “Nothingburger” is a new political/media buzzword that I think was first used by Jared Kushner, but has now been repeatedly used by commentators on the news to mean something like, “this is a big ado about nothing,” and downplay the significance of a story because they don’t like its contents.

                6. Specialk9*

                  I really don’t like how mainstream the feminine cleansing product, do*che, has become as an insult. It feels super vulgar to me (why are we suddenly taking about female genitalia? I was talking about this report.) and also I’m pretty opposed to that product for being harmful to a woman’s chemistry while pathologizing the fact of being a woman.

                  Even so, I do admit that I died laughing at hearing a client referred to as a do*che-canoe. He really was a do*che-canoe.

                7. SavannahMiranda*

                  Ha, this is fascinating! Late to the game (so late). But I had to look this one up, and found out the word has been around since the 1950’s apparently. The 50s! And it’s always been used in a cocky, snappy way to imply a substanceless something, a non-entity.

                  Knowing that, it does seem like such a gossipy 50’s word. I actually kind of love it now.

                  But I understand the ire. “Impact” and “impactful” crawl up one side and down the other for me. No one knows how to use “affect” and “effect” anymore and are scared of mixing them up, so they use impact as a write-around. It’s bugs the snot out of me.

              4. Lissa*

                For me it’s often the context in which I’ve heard the phrase has been annoying, so I kind of irrationally blame the phrase. Right now it’s “I’m going to push back on that” or even worse “I’m going to gently push back on that.” Aaaaaghhhh.

            2. Demon Llama*

              Just chiming in to say that I also loathe this! I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen “impacted” used when the presenter means “affected”.

              To me, the word impacted is associated with bowels, teeth, ear wax and other medical issues. It isn’t the right word to use when explaining why you haven’t met your quarterly sales target.

              Anyway, thank you for listening to my rant, chiming out now.

              1. Samiratou*

                Do you get the feeling people started using “impacted” because they couldn’t remember whether to use “affected” or “effected”?

                Hear, hear on the impacted = painful TMI medical conditions one really doesn’t need to talk about at work…

                1. Specialk9*

                  I so prefer people not to even try with “affect” or “effect”! They will almost surely get it wrong, and I’ll grit my teeth and have to mentally tell myself they can still be intelligent decent people even if they use their words wrong.

                  And impact can also refer to non-medical contexts: a meteorite hitting the earth, a fist hitting a face, or more positively an anonymous donation for a poor kid to go to school. Actually, I think those are more common usages by far than impacted bowels

                2. Cherith Ponsonby*

                  In the late 1990s I made a throwaway comment to a colleague along the lines of “if you can’t remember whether it’s affect or effect, you can always put ‘impact'”. I have been regretting that for years now.

            3. JustaCPA*

              omg if I hear “take it to the next level” or “reach the next level” one more time, I might come in as a fairy to see if I could get fired!!

            4. Fabulous*

              I actually heard the word “synergy” used in our team meeting yesterday. I’ve heard that it’s a dumb jargon word, but I’ve never heard its use before. I still don’t know what it means. LOL

              1. Coalea*

                Synergy is the computer who helps Jerrica Benton transform into Jem so she can perform with Jem and the Holograms, of course! :)

              4. Koko*

                It’s basically when two things work together really well.

                In pharmacology it has a more concrete meaning, where two drugs working synergistically means that the effect of both of them together is more than just the effect of each of them, or the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

                In corporate vernacular it more often just means “these two things work well together!”

              5. Artemesia*

                There are lots of words that have subtle meanings but these have been lost because they are overused to apply to many other things Synergy is one of these; brutalize is another — it does not mean to treat someone brutally but that is the way it is now used in the media and thus a subtle word has been destroyed. Reaching out has nuances that contact doesn’t have but not so much any more.

                1. Mickey Q*

                  Decimate means to reduce by 1/10th but people use it to mean totally wiped out.

            5. Applesauced*

              ugh SYNERGY
              I get the concept, which is… nice, but it’s definitely a buzzword I’d be happy to never hear again.

            7. CM*

              “Choiceful” too! And “choicefulness.”

              I say “reach out,” but I try to limit it to once per communication. Usually replacing it with “talk to” or “ask” works. “Contact” seems more jargony to me than “reach out.”

              3. Jen S. 2.0*

                Wait, what? What nincompoop let “choiceful” out of their mouth at all, let alone At Work?

              4. Elizabeth H.*

                Good grief. CHOICEFUL is too much!!! I have fortunately never heard it before.

                I don’t like “reach out” and am vaguely annoyed by it, but I definitely find myself saying it from time to time just because it’s an acceptable building block in the typical work email lexicon that surrounds me.

            8. overly produced bears*

              I honestly feel like “impact” got the boost from people being v. v. sensitive about getting affect vs. effect wrong. I’m about 95% successful on getting affect vs. effect right and I still have had e-mails where I’ve been like “I’m second-guessing things and I don’t have the energy to deal, I’ll just change it to impact” and sent it off.

            9. madge*

              Thaaaaaank you. Also, I *refuse* to “circle back”. It’s “follow up”. There is nothing offensive or aggressive about following up with someone and as a woman who has been on the receiving end of sexual harassment multiple times, I.will.not “soften” the message. /rant

            11. Mockingjay*

              I lost the war on “impact.” I fought battles over that word for two decades.

              But “impactful?” Gah!

              I don’t mind using “contact” though. “Please contact me if you have any questions.” To me it implies multiple means of communication, especially since this sentence is usually above my email signature block with all my info: email addresses, desk phone number, and office address.

              1. Jen S. 2.0*

                I am still holding down the fort. I work in communications, and I change it every. single. time. I. encounter. it. Unless the sentence really is about, say, the point where two cars crashed into each other, or someone’s molars or ear wax. And I know the difference between affect and effect, so the rest of the world can learn it, too.

                2. Cherith Ponsonby*

                  I’m still fighting this one too, along with “comprises of” and “begs the question”. Although that last one is so euphonious and such a useful concept, I might have to let it go and deploy “petitio principii” when I’m talking about the logical fallacy.

                3. impactfulhater*

                  Same! I will forever argue for the correct use of this word. I had a professor years back who put it best – the only thing that can have an impact are physical things crashing into each other. Ideas can not have a physical impact, but they can affect or effect!

        2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

          “Circle back around” and “loop in” drive. me. crazy. Probably doesn’t help that I hear them all the time from my boss, who could be Bill Lumbergh’s cousin.

        3. Fiennes*

          Disliking something doesn’t make it “a mistake.” I loathe several commonplace words & phrases (“impactful,” ugh), but that’s not the same as declaring they’re actually wrong.

        4. whistle*

          Ramona, just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it a mistake. There is nothing ungrammatical about the phrase, and it’s been in use for a century, with increasing frequency starting in the 70s. (See, e.g.: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=33150). You have every right to your pet peeves about language, but please don’t treat language you don’t like as incorrect.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Erm, I wasn’t actually saying it was incorrect. It was a tongue in cheek comment about how I dislike the phrase.

        5. irritable vowel*

          I hate “reach out” SO MUCH. “Get in touch with” or “make contact with” is far less squicky.

        6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s not a mistake—hewing to the idea that you’re right and someone else is wrong about this phrase just encourages folks to stew in their annoyance/hatred.

          To be sure, you can still be irked by it! But approaching people as if they’re making a mistake when they’re not is not going to engender good will.

        7. the gold digger*

          I have hated the phrase ever since my husband’s mother claimed to him that she was “reaching out” to me. Apparently, I was coldly rejecting her attempts at intimacy.

      2. Sparky*

        I prefer “reach out” to “touch base” which was overused at a former job. It made me picture kicking someone in the shins every time someone said it. But, any version works, and I know what they mean. I figure not liking “touch base” is my own issue. And, I never did kick anyone.

        1. anonintheuk*

          One of my colleagues cheerfully announced ‘you touch MY base and I will poke you in the eye’.

        2. Jadelyn*

          “Touch base”, to me, brings up tabletop gaming memories and I start picturing people as attached to round plastic bases that are either touching or not touching, where you can only talk to people you’re in base-to-base contact with.

        3. JulieBulie*

          Well, “reach out” makes me think of reaching for someone who’s drowning. (I don’t know why.) But I don’t like “touch base” either. Bases are on the ground. I’m not dressed for touching bases.

    2. KarenT*

      I like it too, and I work for a corporation. I was actually just discussing this with someone the other day as we’d observed in meetings that people generally say “reach out” or “connect with.” Our theory was that there are a number of ways to contact someone, and gone are the days we’d say “phone Bob” or “send Janet a letter.” There’s something a bit clinical about contact, though people definitely still use it.

        1. MicroManagered*

          That’s a really good point. If my boss asks me for a status update on something, and I say “I need to know X before I proceed, so I’ve reached out to Y department” but I don’t have a “and they said” following, it’s obvious that I’m waiting to hear from Y department about X.

          1. a1*

            I don’t get it. You can say “contact” the same way w/o adding anything more, too. “I need to know X before I proceed, so I’ve contacted to Y department…” and still be obvious you don’t have an answer yet in the same way it is with “reached out”. If you had an answer you would just give it, regardless of which word you used.

            1. Perse's Mom*

              ‘Contacted’ in this context would suggest to me that you’d actually spoken with someone, and I would be staring at you, waiting for the result of this contact.

              ‘Reached out to’ suggests a reach, not necessarily a connection.

            2. the gold digger*

              :) Yes, if only there were a word that expressed the concept of having initiated a conversation/email chain/text chain where the recipient may or may not have responded yet.

        3. Opalescent Tree Shark*

          I was about to say something similar. To me reach out and contact mean different things. I would contact another department if I needed an answer about something to move forward on a project. I would reach out to a community partner to see if they would be interested in doing a project with us

        4. Kelly O*

          Exactly.

          I may “reach out” to Joe’s assistant, but she may not answer me, therefore I have technically not made contact. The effort is on my part. That’s why I appreciate the phrase.

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yeah, this is a good point. I dislike it, but it serves a purpose when it really doesn’t matter how you contact them. I’m an admin assistant and if you say “Call Wakeen” or “Email Jane,” I’m likely going to assume the method of communication actually matters–i.e. Wakeen never checks his email, or Jane hates the phone, and you know that and I don’t–but if you say “reach out” I know it’s not really important.

      3. Coalea*

        My dad is a staunch opponent of “reach out,” and his explanation for this is that it’s not specific enough. He wants to know whether you will be emailing, calling, sending a raven, or whatever.

          1. overly produced bears*

            And if it arrives by owl, I’ll certainly have owl treats on hand, so I guess that would solve the trick or treat issue as well. ;)

        2. Frank Doyle*

          Sure, but sometimes you need a word that ISN’T specific because you’re not sure yet which method will work.

        3. Specialk9*

          From the linked article, I loved this 1960s explanation of how generationally offensive the term “contact” can be:

          “If in doubt, contact your physician — this locution is as natural to the American of thirty as it is grotesque to the American of sixty, for whom the idea of surfaces touching is the essence of contact. The elderly can therefore see no fitness and no use for the word in its new sense, when the vocabulary already provides consult, ask, approach, get in touch with, confer with, and simply see.”

          Kind of hits home with the idea that language is determined by usage, that usage changes over time, and that us old people hate change.

      4. overly produced bears*

        A few months ago, I was having regular meetings with someone who kept saying “let’s backchannel about this” for “let’s talk about it in a one-on-one or have an e-mail thread”. That was a new one and caused me actual confusion until I figured out what she meant.

        1. Samiratou*

          That’s very weird construction. In larger meetings we’ll use “let’s take this offline” for things that are tangents or require more detail and fewer people than are in the larger meeting, but “let’s backchannel about this” is confusing and takes the noun-as-verb thing to an even more irritating level.

    3. Triplestep*

      I am in the Northeast US and I have been hearing it since 2010; I actually remember really clearly when I first started hearing it because it sounded over-solicitous as the OP indicates. But I am used to it now and use it on occasion alternating with “contact.” And for what it’s worth, I am over 50.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Yeah. I’m well over, I mean slightly past thirty, but I don’t have a problem with “reaching out”. I did cringe a bit that it was used so many times in such a short document, though. Either way it’s a pretty minor thing.

      1. Artemesia*

        It is one of those trendy smarmy phrases unless used with precision that tends to grate on me. Reminds me of ‘our journey’ or ‘my journey’. It might have been fresh once, but not it seems cloying and cliched.

          2. Djuna*

            I have that song as an earworm every time I see that phrase used. Sometimes it gets replaced with a Diana Ross song instead, which is nice.

            At my job it tends to get used instead of “ask” a lot of the time, “reach out to your supervisor” instead of “ask your supervisor”, for example. I read that and have mental pictures of people leaning forward in their chairs and physically reaching out in desperation for an answer to their question.

            It used to bug me, the same way “impacted” (are you a wisdom tooth? did a meteor land on you?) did, but I’ve grown immune to both over time.

            1. SarahKay*

              I’m with you on impacted! Well, technically I guess I’m behind you on “impacted” in that I haven’t got immune to it yet :(

            2. MsMorlowe*

              I’ve got “Personal Jesus” stuck in my head now from this thread (REACH OUT TOUCH BASE).

              Actually, ‘touch base’ annoys me. Mostly because I think it comes from baseball, which is not a thing where I live, and my father uses it incessently when speaking to me (“I just wanted to touch base with you on how your week was” / “YOU’RE MY FATHER, AND THIS IS NOT A CORPORATE SHINDIG”).

              I’m right there on ‘impact’ as well!

            1. yasmara*

              I don’t know why I didn’t see your comment initially, @Mookie, but we are clearly on the same wavelength!

          5. Cherith Ponsonby*

            I’ve got the song “Touch” by (80s Australian band) Noiseworks, which has the chorus “Reach out and / reach out and / reach out and touch somebody”. Every time without fail.

        4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          What makes “reach out” smarmy? Is it that it suggests greater familiarity or informality between people?

          (Isn’t all business jargon cloying and cliche? But I do tend to feel eye-rolly when “journey” language is deployed.)

          1. fposte*

            For me “reach out” leads me to internally sing the AT&T jingle “Reach out and touch someone.” But I don’t hold that against it. (And that’s 1979, so I think it probably predates the pastoral use.)

      2. MicroManagered*

        I think you hit the problem right there. Nothing is wrong with “reach out” but it’s odd to use a phrase–any phrase–multiple times like that. You’re either taking 3 sentences to say something that only needs 1 sentence, or you need a different word.

    5. e271828*

      I associate “reach out” with pastoral care and condolences, which is where it started. Its connotations of comfort and mollification aren’t suitable for, say, a news organization trying to get a quote or reaction from a politician’s office. The current use of it instead of “contact” (or “call” or even “ask”) rings utterly false, like phony concern trolling.

      Language evolves, we cannot prescribe, but this is a boundary-pushing, borderline creepy usage shift that I will never be comfortable with.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Exactly. You would “reach out” to someone who had suffered a bereavement. You’d “contact” or “call” someone you wanted to ask about a stationary order.

        I’ve learned to ignore a lot of jargon over the years though :) it’s not worth it.

      2. Squeeble*

        Oooh, maybe that’s why I’ve never liked it! I didn’t make that connection before, but it does feel like a very personal and intimate phrase that doesn’t quite work in business contexts.

        1. Ramblin' Ma'am*

          This is the same reason I dislike “Hi there” or “Hey there” as a greeting in business emails. It just seems so cutesy.

          1. Specialk9*

            oh yeah, I know someone who always started emails that way, either hi there or hey there. I was never sure if I disliked the phrase inherently, or just was generally irked by the person.

      3. Koko*

        I don’t think it’s possible to know someone is being phony based on only their language. Phoniness is when a person’s language doesn’t match their intent or true feelings. Maybe you have only heard the phrase used by phony people, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who uses it is being fake. Some people are just more emotive and warm than others. It’s not fakeness, it’s their natural disposition.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I’m not sure that “reach out” started with pastoral care and condolences. At least the OED suggests that it’s been used in non-intimate contexts for quite some time. I know that might not change your feelings, but calling it “boundary-pushing” and “borderline creepy” is kind of extreme!

        When I hear news organizations use it, I usually interpret them to be saying “we made an effort to connect with [concerned person who may have a reaction], but were unable to reach them.” That doesn’t seem particularly phony, false, or concern trolling. It just sounds colloquial to me.

      5. JulieBulie*

        It makes me think of someone who is drowning and reaching out to people on the boat, who are reaching out to the drowner.

        Why I have such a specific mental image, I don’t know. But I’m not crazy about “reach out” unless someone is drowning, literally or figuratively.

        I don’t mind “reach out” as much if it’s being done to someone who is totally not expecting to hear from you, has never even heard of you.

        1. Koko*

          Yeah, I tend to use it that way–to express that I’m going to be trying to get a hold of someone who I’m not closely connected to. I would never say I’d reach out to my counterpart who I work with every day. I would use it if I needed to get approval for something from the finance department who works in another city’s office, or email an acquaintance at another company to ask for insight on a vendor of theirs we’re considering, or solicit a VIP for a favor.

    6. Misc*

      I would use ‘reach out’ for something like email where I send out an email but may not *actually* make contact, and I’d use contact for a phone call or something where I definitely can confirm contact was made. If I send an email and say I contacted so and so, that implies I know so and so got it and that they responded. If I say I reached out by phone, it’s ambiguous about whether the call went anywhere.

      Reaching out is the action, contact is the goal. So as far as I’m concerned, it’s far more accurate to use in an environment more heavily dominated by email communications.

      1. hbc*

        Ooh, that’s a really good point. I tend not to use the phrase much, but when I do, I’m usually “reaching out” to the really unresponsive contact or just checking a box so I can say that we tried to support a whiny customer (as in, maybe even calling during lunch and hoping they don’t pick up the phone). If I think I’ll achieve something substantive or need to, I’ll be contacting them or discussing with them or chasing them down.

      4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed. We tend to use it a lot at my company because it’s very common to call a client, get their voicemail, and leave a message asking them to call us back. We didn’t actually have contact with the client, we don’t have a response from them, but we’ve taken action and the ball is now (presumably) in the client’s court.

      5. oranges & lemons*

        I usually use “reach out” to mean that I’m going to try to get in touch with someone, but I’m not sure if they’ll get back to me. Like if I’m reaching out to a famous author for a book endorsement.

    7. Kali*

      I’ve never ever thought about, so it was really interesting to see how much it jumps out to some people. I was also surprised that some people don’t like the word “moist” though, so I think I’m the odd one.

      1. JulieBulie*

        I first encountered the aversion to “moist” a few years ago and was bewildered by it. We were talking about a birthday cake and saying that it was “moist.” I think it ruined his day. :-( The guy was Australian, so I wondered if it was an Australian thing (I think I would have heard about it sooner), or just a personal quirk.

        1. Specialk9*

          Yeah I don’t get it either. But I know so many people who shudder and cover their ears in horror at the word moist.

          I mean, I have a similar reaction to the word “pus” and “wound” but that seems less bizarre than reacting to the word “moist”. But it’s a thing!

          1. Kali*

            I study genetics (which comes with a big helping of general biology at this level), so I’m pretty much inured to those words. I am trypophobic though, so I enjoy the anatomy slides much less. :/

        2. BetterInGreen*

          I am Australian, and an Australian guy of my (thankfully long-ended) acquaintance often used the term (I apologise in advance) “moisty” to refer to a woman.
          Yeah. I never had a problem with the word moist until then, but now it gives me full-body shudders because I can only think of his grossness.

    8. Kathleen Adams*

      I’m way over 30 but I also like “reach out to.” But then I dislike “contact” (in most contexts) partly because it sounds so officious and bland but also because I can remember the days when using “contact” as a verb was very strongly disliked.

      But the other advantage of “reach out to” is that it sounds friendlier. That’s probably why it annoys me when, say, a salesperson uses it.

          1. JulieBulie*

            D’oh… it was a little AFTER my time. I grew up on Electric Company. 321 Contact was later.

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yes, I dislike ‘contact’ as a verb (although I use it because it’s so common, and in some contexts you sound unnecessarily wordy or specific if you don’t use it). I like “reach out” just fine.

        1. Kathleen Adams*

          Exactly. “Call, email or text me” isn’t something I want to write all that often. So I do use “contact” sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. :-)

    9. Maya Elena*

      Also, it is stylistically weird to uae the same word over and over, and “I’m sending you my contact info so feel free to contact me” sounds repetitive and redundant :p

      1. Cherith Ponsonby*

        That’s why I go with “I’m sending you my contact info so feel free to get in touch” :)

        I’ll reluctantly concede that “reach out” has its place, but I still hate it – I always think of all the people I’ve known over the years who have felt the need to touch (or worse, grab) my arm when they’re talking to me. Stop reaching out for me, just stand there and I’ll stand here and we can have a perfectly cordial conversation with no touching.

    10. FD*

      I use it in different contexts myself. I tend to use ‘reach out’ for people I don’t know or who won’t be expecting it (because ‘reach out’ indicates that the other person may not reach back). For example, “Let’s reach out to the team at Lannister Corp and see if they’re interested in doing a joint event.

      I would be more prone to use ‘contact’ where it might be more expected. For instance, “I’ll contact tech support and see what I can find out.”

    11. cobweb collector*

      Reach out is an active verb that makes it clear who needs to be doing the action. Contact does not.

    12. Anna*

      I’m an over-40 that uses reach out or touch base or whatever feels appropriate in the email I’m sending because who the hell cares.

    13. Gloucesterina*

      A mix of thoughts on “reach out” – I’m in an academic setting, and I feel like I see it used most often as a synonym for “initiate a conversation with someone who isn’t here and might not know about what we’re doing, usually over email.” I agree with you, KatieKate, that I see it used used to create a more collegial and deferential feel around contacting someone outside of your immediate/everyday professional circle, in other words, speaking to someone who’s at a remove or at a “reach” from where you are.

      In other words, in my context the use isn’t as all-purposes as in the sentence OP quoted!

    14. Sled dog mama*

      I usually am not bothered by others use or misuse of words or phrases until…..
      I had a co-worker who would enter notes with the phrase “the physician preferred” when he meant “the physician requested” after 2 years I nearly screamed every time I read that

    15. Vegan Atheist Weirdo*

      I see others have already mentioned additional peeving word usage, but I’ll throw in my vote against “reach out” in almost every context. Other dumb business-isms that make me feel stabby:

      “leverage” instead of use (and generally in a sense of take advantage of)
      “ask” instead of request or favor

      And this isn’t in the same category exactly, but it gives me the same reaction: the media use of “speak(s) out” instead of speaks. In most cases, they use it when someone’s talking about something that wasn’t hidden or being suppressed to begin with. Can’t anyone just talk anymore? No, it always has to be some kind of dramatic moment of revelation. Ugh.

    16. SusanIvanova*

      I’m with Nero Wolfe – “contact” is not a verb. Sentences that try to use it that way almost always look clunky.

      Also, after all this discussion of “reach out”, I can’t be the only one earwormed with Depeche Mode’s “Personal Jesus” – “reach out, touch faith” :)

  4. Lady Phoenix*

    I think the fire was too much. It is obvious the decision was made on impulse instead of logical procedure. The fact they keep harping on you about it when all is said and done is beyond ridiculous.

    I get that this was embaressing but come on bosses, use your heads!

    1. Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms*

      Yeah, they keep asking OP why she would do that, and it’s like “I don’t know!? You fired her before I could talk to her about it!”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I thought it was interesting that both the employee and the Big Boss have difficulty knowing when to stop.

  5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    OP#3, “contact” sometimes sounds clinical to me in email. The example you provided has far too many “reach outs” in far too little space—in that context, you’re understandably irked! But I think folks use “reach out” for any number of non-solicitous reasons. E.g., I tend to use that phrase when referring to someone with whom I have a professional/friend relationship, or when I’m gauging someone’s position on an issue. I use “contact” to refer to communication with strangers, administrators and bureaucrats.

    1. Amey*

      I don’t like ‘reach out’ – it sounds salesy to me (I see it a lot in mass emails from corporations trying to claim that they appreciate me), but I agree that ‘contact’ can be too stand offish. I’m trying to think what I use instead, ‘get in touch’ maybe? But that wouldn’t work in all contexts.

      1. FCJ*

        I agree that it sounds salesy. It makes me think of retail managers I’ve had who’d drunk a little too much of the corporate kool-aid. I just use “talk to” or “email.” It’s not like those aren’t appropriately formal.

    2. Marthooh*

      I’m with OP#3. “Reach out” reminds me of songs that are either annoyingly cloying [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yt6DvapiK-w] or just not appropriate for business correspondence [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2EaflX0MWRo]. But, of course, I’m an Old.

    1. Ted Mosby*

      I was going to say this seemed less obnoxious and pushy and more generally clueless, but telling people in a finance office they’re too stuffy… is pretty bad. Overall I don’t feel that bad that she got fired, because if she felt that way finance is not for her and better to find out sooner than later.

      1. Fake old Converse shoes*

        Yeah, It’s better for her that it happened before the year in her first professional job.

        1. Decima Dewey*

          Yeah, some fields are stuffy. But, as far as I know, these fields aren’t pressganging people off the street to fill vacancies.

  7. MommyMD*

    I’m with your office. I don’t know what she was thinking either. Prancing around in a Halloween costume in a clearly formal office and basically trick or treating in an important executive meeting? She showed zero common sense. She also insulted the office culture. Firing was not unjustified. I hoped she learned something from this. And she really wanted to come as The Walking Dead.

      2. Overeducated*

        This is the saddest detail here – she DID think about what was appropriate for the office, she was just horribly, terribly wrong.

    2. Scarlet*

      Yeah, trick-or-treating during a meeting with executives and clients is just beyond the pale. Nobody is THAT clueless, even right out of college.

      The director is overreacting though. I don’t see the point of asking OP repeatedly “what the employee was thinking”. OP said employee didn’t talk about it beforehand, employee was fired, end of story. Are they waiting for OP to become a psychic or something? That’s not beating a dead horse, it’s bludgeoning it to death, resurrecting it and putting it on fire.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        I see why the Director is acting this way: HER job may also be under threat. An employee within her department embarrassed the C-level executives of a very formal firm in front of clients. These executives are likely very angry and the Director is feeling the heat. She is probably in severe damage-control mode right now because she perceives her role to be at risk.

        1. Fiennes*

          If people that far up the food chain are so outraged that they’d fire a director with no direct oversight of the costumed employee over one lone weird incident like this? That is NOT a healthy company. That is not how good or even merely rational management works.

          Tiana, you messed up, but you may be just as well out of that place.

        2. Kelly O*

          Not even her role, but her judgment is what may be the larger problem for the director. If a team member is so clueless to do something like this, then how are they going to handle my data/teacups/finances/etc.?

          And the Director may also see heat coming down on the LW since it’s her direct report. If team culture is not jiving with company culture, and it scares off clients or potential clients, that’s a big deal. It’s something many companies would want to nip in the bud.

          1. No Green No Haze*

            Yes — this is the thing it seems to me people are missing. The LW is getting heat from her director, who is getting heat from *her* boss *and* the C-suite. If you count Princess Tiana, that’s five levels of stuff rolling downhill.

            Whether or not it’s just, it seems that this office culture is not only conservative (“stuffy,” if you like) but also extremely hierarchical. The amount of stress the LW’s director is under is being dictated by how shockingly out of the norms this was and the embarrassment it caused, not only the LW’s director, but the C-suite, given it was in front of clients. It’s probably all they can talk about — or at least, all they’ve been talking about for the all of two days since it happened.

            Reprinting the dress code and all materials is pretty over-the-top, but so do they sound. If it simmers down the director, accept that silliness equably and enjoy the thought of all the future employees speculating about why that line’s in there.

      2. Indoor Cat*

        “Nobody is THAT clueless…” Seems like, every time I think this (or it’s cousins, “nobody’s that stupid” and “nobody’s that petty”) I’m immediately proven wrong. Every time.

      3. Ann O. Nymous*

        Honestly, even if she was “trick or treating” at her coworkers’ offices, not in the presence of clients, it would still be bonkers and way out-of-touch. I hope to god that she was saying “trick or treat” in jest, as I’ve NEVER seen an adult do that to other adults. Like, are they supposed to have bought some fun-size Snickers? I would have been like “Tiana, I don’t know what the hell is wrong with you, but here’s a pen for your jack-o-lantern bucket. Now go away.”

      4. As Close As Breakfast*

        I wonder if it’s possible that the OP is misinterpreting the “what was she thinking” question? When I read that phrase I just kept hearing it in my head in that head-shaking, eye-rolling, exasperated, rhetorical sort of way. Granted, it’s totally possible that they are staring OP dead in the eye and seriously asking her to provide a psychic-worthy answer to what the employee was thinking. But maybe not?

  8. Pineapple Goddess of Doom*

    I’d say #1 is spot on. I think it shows lack of professional judgement and immaturity. Cute costume idea but not professional.

  9. MommyMD*

    I’ve never heard of anyone killing a ladybug. They are completely benign. Just saying. I can kind of see his horror though he should have not put it in a plant next to you.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Actually, some ladybugs aren’t benign. In the UK some areas have a problem with harlequin ladybirds, which infest (they basically settle in and invite all their friends to join) and eat native ladybirds. Had a huge problem with them when we lived in London – at one point we had an issue with our phone/ADSL line and when they opened the box thing it was full of ladybirds. Couldn’t open the windows as they’d keep coming in in droves. Bad times.

      They are common in the US but considered an invasive species over here. I don’t like to kill things, but they’re not always benign!

        1. MidwestRoads*

          These are the WORRRRST. I live in southern MN and from the start of harvest until the first hard freeze, they are everywhere. They have no natural predators (too gross for birds even), they bite, and they release a terrible-smelling orange pee. Death to Asian lady beetles!!!

      2. Liz T*

        That is horrifying.

        I love ladybugs (and would freak out slightly if someone told me they killed one) but those copycat versions are creepy AF. An infestation sounds skincrawling.

        (To be clear I wouldn’t want a phone full of the real ones, either.)

      3. Andraste's Knicker Weasels (formerly ancolie)*

        My first year of college, our whole campus had a bizarre infestation of the Asian lady bugs. The classrooms were decently contained (meaning they usually only had up to a couple dozen in them), but the stairwells, oh my god. Dozens on each stair, and literally piles in the corners of each landing, like snowdrifts.

    2. Dinosaur*

      After experiencing a swarm of thousands of them on/in my house one summer, I kill them. They give me the heeby-jeebies and I don’t want them near me. I’m cool with spiders, though.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yup. New England here. Late October you notice one on a wall: so cute! Then there are 100 of them swarmed over your stove, and it is less cute.

        1. Jesca*

          This happened to my brother-in-law in college. All the dorms were infested. They would sleep with their whole bodies under the blankets, because they would wake up covered in the them!

          Also, they can also congregate in the roof of animals’ mouths for warmth, which is totally gross.

          I kill them if I cannot set them free!

        2. JulieBulie*

          We get ladybug infestations here too. It’s not big a problem except when their dead bodies litter the windowsills and carpet. There aren’t enough potted plants (or aphids) to keep them alive. We don’t know why there are so many of them or why they come in here.

    3. tink*

      Asian Lady Beetles look very similar to native US ladybug species but are aggressive biters that smell bad. They secrete a yellow fluid when disturbed that can stain almost anything it comes into contact with, and they love infesting places. They can also cause allergic reactions, so if I saw one inside my office, killing it would probably be my first thought, especially if I hated insects and had told someone not to put it near me.

      1. Tiny Soprano*

        This has sent me on a very pleasant google-spiral. Just what I needed in the quiet half an hour before closing time! Thank you lady-beetle commenters!

        1. lokilaufeysanon*

          It doesn’t matter. And they also look that similar that you could easily confuse the two.

        2. Mike C.*

          Invasive species are among the most harmful environmental issues we face on this planet. Please don’t spread bad scientific information.

        3. Purplesaurus*

          Crickets creep me right hell out. Rationally I know it is just a cricket, but that doesn’t do anything to suppress my aversion to them. Given how common this is, I’d guess there’s something instinctual about being insect averse, as plenty of them do bite or sting.

          1. Peetaann*

            I’m okay with regular crickets but, when I was a child, our garage was infested with camel crickets. I HATE those things. Give me the heebie-jeebies.

            1. Purplesaurus*

              I didn’t want to even mention those hellspawn because it seems like stating their name summons them to my location. Ugh. Shudder.

        4. bearing*

          Lady beetle = ladybird = ladybug, and the OP did not specify which species. It could well have been the offensive-smelling Asian lady beetle. I would kill it too.

        5. Samiratou*

          Very likely not. As others have pointed out, the invasive ladybug lookalikes are very common–way more common than actual ladybugs around here. I can’t remember the last time I saw an actual ladybugs but the invasive variety inhabits my house year round.

        6. Opalescent Tree Shark*

          Let me tell you, 99% of people can’t tell Asian lady beetles apart from native ladybugs. Behaviorally and based on how common they are, it is much more likely that it wasn’t a native ladybug.

          Also, as someone who is allergic to Asian lady beetles, I would be pissed if someone put one near me and then said “it’s just a ladybug”

      3. CC*

        This is almost certainly what the ladybug was—I haven’t seen a non-Asian ladybug since I was a child.

        Also almost all bugs are benign if you’re not working in a kitchen! That doesn’t mean I want you to bring me a centipede or spider just because I have a random plant in my office. Let it outside—it’s cold but it’s where the bug belongs.

        1. MCL*

          Yeah, I was also thinking that this was probably an invasive Asian beetle. They look very similar and this is the time of year they move inside to hibernate. Kill on sight in my house. I love native ladybug species, too.

        2. Antilles*

          Right. The fact they’re benign isn’t the issue.
          After all, most spiders in the US are completely safe. And since spiders eat basically every insect, having a few spiders in your office is a very effective strategy to keep other insects out. But if you walked into your office tomorrow and saw a giant spider hanging in the corner, most people would be seriously worried.

        3. oranges & lemons*

          Depends on the region–in the Pacific Northwest, seven-spots are very common (they are also not native, but not unpleasant otherwise).

        4. Falling Diphthong*

          After a couple of years’ reprieve, the fall stink bugs are back. I don’t kill them because of their defense mechanisms, but I sure don’t want them in the house even if they don’t bite.

      5. Adlib*

        Yes, Asian lady beetles are horrible. I love native ladybugs (natural predators of harmful [to plants] aphids), and once you do some research, it’s pretty easy to distinguish between the two. They infest my parents’ house out in the country every year, and they have to break out the vacuum cleaner to get them. Side effect: the smell brings in the spiders. Ick.

        It also sounds like the OP just said she killed it but hadn’t actually, just to get her point across.

      6. yasmara*

        Oh yes, @tink. In MN where we used to live, Asian beetles were a big problem certain times of the year. Ugh.

      7. Artemesia*

        This. All things that look like ladybugs are not the benign little red things we love; those orange ones bite and swarm and infest and are awful.

    4. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

      Really? I always kill them. (Not like, I specifically go find ladybugs to kill like some kind of insect serial murderer, but if they’re in my house I do.)

      I guess I don’t find killing a bug that weird. Just because it’s benign doesn’t mean I want it to crawl on me or fly in my face.

      1. N.J.*

        I agree with you here. I personally like lady bugs, I think they are cute and harmless. I have at least one close relative however, who is legitimately creeped out by all bugs. This person doesn’t suffer from a phobia or disfunction related to insects, but the amount of horror and disgust felt is a real thing for a lot of people. There are enough people who legitimately hate all bugs that I would say the burden is on your coworker not to go around placing bugs near other people. He was being an ass. I wouldn’t go to anybody about it or anything if I were you, but saying you killed it is not an overreaction. I’m surprised there are as many responses as there are that think killing it or saying you killed it is too much.

      2. hypernatural*

        I agree with you (and would not look down upon anyone who was some kind of insect serial murderer). I also disagree with Alison and think you were correct to tell the coworker you killed it. Did your coworker think that putting the bug near you would make you suddenly like them? Assuming he can ignore your explicit request and have things work out well for him was a poor decision on his part and he should suffer consequences for it. It’d probably be best to have laid out the consequences in advance (“If you put the bug near me, I will kill it. If you’d like it to live, you should do something other than that.”), but you had no reason to believe you’d need to be so explicit.

        1. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

          I actually did tell him I would kill it, so I guess he thought I simply wasn’t that horrible.

      3. PersephoneUnderground*

        Funny, I thought a ladybug would actually be a good idea in an office plant since they eat other bugs (and aren’t as icky as spiders). So the single ladybug could help prevent you from having more other bugs come in and infest the plants (since you said they were coming in from outside) or eat gnats that sometimes end up breeding in office plants. At first that was why I thought he was doing it, to be helpful by giving you an anti-pest measure, rather than what Alison assumed in her answer.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I did, too. I have seen ladybugs used as pest control in greenhouses. I released a bunch of lady bugs here to deal with some mite infestation.
          In some cultures ladybugs are a symbol of good luck. OP, he is probably wondering why you don’t want any good luck.
          However, this is one of those time where two people look at something and have opposite impressions of what that is.
          The part of the story that bothers me is that he did not respect your NO, OP. That’s not good. We shouldn’t give people things that they have said they do not want. I hope you just shrug and say to him, “I said no. I really meant that. I was not joking.”

      4. Samiratou*

        I’m with you, LW. Don’t put bugs in my plants, particularly since it’s very possibly not an actual ladybug but more invasive variety (at least around here it would be, not sure about your area). I’ve also lost plants to fungi and such, and I would assume it’s possible for bugs to carry such things from plant to plant if moved around.

      5. Southern Ladybug*

        Somehow given my username I feel like I should comment. I am glad you didn’t actually kill the ladybug, but he was way out of line putting it there when you specifically asked him not to. I don’t know why he didn’t put it outside.

        As invasive species and when they swarm an area (like in my old office)…yeah, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. A Southern Ladybug would never be so rude as to invade and cause such issues. And would come with food and booze (if it enjoyed by the host….).

      6. DontWantNoBugs*

        I agree. I would not be cool with a coworker rescuing bugs and leaving them in any plant in any part of the building. That is not the purpose of indoor plants.

        If he wanted to save it so badly, he should have taken it home. I love dogs, but I am not permitted to keep strays I might find in the office, so I’d say the same should go for bugs.

      7. Lissa*

        I’m pretty bug killin’ neutral but I don’t understand why people react worse to killing a ladybug than a spider or a (shudder shudder my waking nightmare) crane fly. though I have a friend who for religious reasons won’t kill anything even fruit flies, and really hates having others kill bugs around him, once freaked out at someone for being about to stomp a spider…

        1. Plague of frogs*

          I’m with your friend. But for that reason, I would never put a bug near someone like OP. It’s unkind to all parties.

          1. Lissa*

            I actually understand it more when it’s a blanket thing like you or my friend. What baffles me is people like my old roommate who would flip out about killing some types of bugs but make exceptions for others that were gross, like…ok, I get if you have a personal reaction to some stuff but not others but then wouldn’t you get that others might “make exceptions” for ones you don’t . . .?

            1. Plague of frogs*

              Oh, I totally agree. I fear spiders but of course I don’t kill them. The nice thing about that is that feeling empathy for the spiders has largely overcome my fear of them. I used to experience such anxiety when I saw one that I would get nauseated; now I can happily coexist for weeks knowing that there is one living in my bathroom.

              I hate the fact that many people are only willing to treat cute animals well. I saw someone on TV boiling a lobster to death in a competition so that she could win money for a cat shelter, and it just about made my head explode from the hypocrisy. I had just read David Foster Wallace’s “Consider the Lobster,” which perhaps did not help.

        2. K, Esq.*

          I don’t kill things on principle either, unless there’s an infestation of bugs, they all get put outside. I do make an exception for mosquitoes though. And if someone kills something in front of me, I get very sad and it stays with me.

          1. Lissa*

            Out of curiosity, does it stay with you when you kill a mosquito or have an infestation where you can’t put them outside, or is the emotional reaction overridden in those cases?

    5. Lilo*

      I did once do a gardening thing where we got to distribute lady bugs from boxes and the sensation of having tons all over your hands is actually pretty tickly. But I am not remotely bug phobic.

      I kind if think everyone over reacted here. A single bug isn’t a big deal (even if there was a breeding pair, there isn’t enough food source inside to support a swarm), but at the same time bringing a bug inside to likely starve to death is also silly.

      1. Teacher*

        Good point about it starving to death. Unless he’s planning on bringing it a supply of aphids next.

    6. Temperance*

      I’ve killed them. I hate them. If a big touches me, or invades my home, I consider it fair game.

      My FIL’s girlfriend lives in a really old house, and there are hundreds of ladybugs in swarms. It’s disgusting, and now I feel that it would destroy my house, too, if I let one in.

    7. Mina77*

      “entrust you with a bug in need” is actually one of the greatest sentences I’ve ever read on this blog.

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Back when I used to ride horses regularly, we had a superstition that ladybugs were lucky and you were never to even brush one off if it landed on you or your horse. I’ve found that’s translated into an aversion to disturbing them in other areas of my life.

      That said, putting one on or near someone after they’ve specifically said not to? That’s pretty jerkish.

    9. SKA*

      For a few years when I was a kid, we would get SO MANY ladybugs in our house. Any lighting fixture that had a base below a lightbulb would quickly accumulate dozens of gross-smelling ladybug corpses. I know they likely weren’t multiplying in our home (but rather just crawling in from some crack or door that didn’t get shut all the way), but trust me, we killed a LOT of those things. (And even if we didn’t, they were all going to end up dead in a light fixture anyway.)

      1. Emi.*

        Yeah, I just don’t think “I don’t like it” or “I feel scared” are good enough reasons to kill a living thing.

        1. Vegan Atheist Weirdo*

          That’s my position, too. Now, mosquitoes that have bitten me? Those are very much on my hit list. And I don’t consider it avoidable to kill an outbreak of ants in my apartment. One? I’ll scoop onto a piece of paper and flick outside. But a conga line of the little suckers leading from the tiny gap in the wall in my kitchen to my cat’s food bowl definitely merits a call to the exterminator.

          1. Keto Atheist Weirdo*

            I’m with you that it’s generally crappy, but I don’t freak out about eradicating an unavoidable infestation. Just the thought of cockroaches makes my skin crawl.
            I had an ant issue one and by pure coincidence planted some basil in a window garden. Ants just disappeared. Just an idea if you have the issue in the future, and if it doesn’t work you can console yourself with a caprese salad.

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        I can’t tell the difference between a ladybug and an Asian lady beetle, so when I find one in the house, I put it outside. If it’s a ladybug, it knows what to do before winter, and if it’s not, it’s gonna die, which is fine with me.

        Now, that’s if I find one. If I find several, I assume they’re Asian lady beetles, and I get rid of them however I can without having to touch the icky, stinky little things.

      2. Kathleen Adams*

        Ladybugs do. Asian lady beetles do, too, but they also bite and stink and swarm indoors (where there aren’t all that many aphids!) in a very alarming way.

        The way I look at it, it’s just not sustainable to have them inside. I hope I have no aphids, but in any case, I know I don’t have many, so if they stay inside, they’re just going to starve anyway.

  10. Ted Mosby*

    OP #2 clearly stated she didn’t want the bug there. Coworker didn’t listen. OP is being advised to do exactly what she already did that didn’t work. At all. This is one of the first times Alison has really missed the mark for me.

    I would also be really annoyed if someone asked for something they thought was gross to just be moved closer to me instead. Weird all around.

    1. MommyMD*

      Yes, he was wrong to annoy her. But Ladybug Killer is realistically going to trump that in most offices. I’d cease to speak of it anymore if I were her.

      1. Gingerblue*

        I can’t see killing a bug realistically trumping being a guy who carried a bug around and inflicted it on a coworker despite her very upset objections in any place I’ve worked, honestly. I’m sure some people would react that way, but not the majority of ones I’ve worked with.

        Also, dude: ladybug is not going to respect your office seating chart. It’s not going to stay on the plant. Take it outside if you actually care before it suicides in my coffee.

      2. Temperance*

        I really don’t agree. My office has had problems with bugs breeding in someone’s potted plants, and we also have a gross insect in my area that looks like a ladybug, but is not.

        The weirdo trying to “save” insects would be in the wrong in my office, especially for using someone else’s plants.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Oh yes, we have an annual problem with those box elder bugs and the woman who was moving them to an empty cube and setting them free got chewed out big time and (I do think this is harsh, because she just seemed naive to me) told by at least two people the bugs will be killed if they enter their (nearby) cube.

          (But I also don’t blame the bugkillers because I am a bugkiller too)

      3. BPT*

        In what world is killing a bug a huge offense? I can’t imagine people being more upset with the LW for killing a bug than the coworker for spreading bugs in the office. Like killing a bug is such a non-thing to most people. At the very least if he cared about it he would have released it outside.

        1. Vegan Atheist Weirdo*

          To those of us who are bothered by the killing of bugs, the fact that it is a non-thing to most people is part of why it’s upsetting. In most cases, with most (individual) insects, there’s no reason to kill it as long as it can be removed to outside. Obviously this doesn’t apply to an infestation.

          I think about it like this: I wouldn’t want to be indiscriminately smashed or swatted by a larger, more advanced species simply because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, so I’m not inclined to be the smasher/swatter, either.

        2. Plague of frogs*

          Well, since you ask–my world. But I wouldn’t put the bug next to a co-worker who clearly did not want her there.

          When people kill things that were not harming them, it changes my opinion of those people permanently. I try not to treat them differently, but I definitely view them differently. So, yeah, LW might not want to trumpet the fact that he killed something for no reason. (But his coworker is a total jerk).

      4. As Close As Breakfast*

        I completely disagree. I am always going to think less of a coworker that does a non-essential and non-work related thing to another employee after that employee has specifically asked them not to do said thing, than a coworker that killed an insect.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m suggesting she take a different tone and approach next time (although I very much doubt there will be a next time) than the one it sounds like she took the first time. And I don’t think he was moving the ladybug because he thought she was gross; it sounds like he was looking for a plant to put her in.

      1. Tassie Tiger*

        It makes me so happy that you call the ladybug a “her” and not an “it”. As a bug-rescuer myself, it just makes me happy. :)

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          Yes! I am a bug rescuer too. I even rescued a cockroach out of the bathroom of my yoga studio the other day. :/ (It was a small cockroach)

        2. Julia*

          My mother used to put ladybugs or butterflies she found in winter on the windowsill with tiny pots of water and honey. I’m not big on spiders, but I never kill them, I just try to (usually have them) put somewhere far away from me.

          1. Temperance*

            On this blog, we follow the convention where people of unknown gender are referred to as “she” or “her” rather than “he” or “him”.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        A ladybug would die if you put it in an indoor plant alone anyway. They eat aphids, and unless the plant had some on it, it would slowly starve. It might have been better to point this out to Fergus instead.

        1. One of the Sarahs*

          I thought they hibernated for winter, and did that insect thing of shutting down, and that’s why people find sheds full of them? Though of course, that might not happen in a heated office.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          This! Unless he pre-infected that plant with a massive amount of aphids, he wasn’t helping the bug at all.

          It wanted to hibernate. The correct bug-rescuer move would have been to leave it in a quiet corner of his office.

          Supporting evidence: The bug fled.

        3. Allison*

          I had aphids on an indoor plant. I hear they eat spider mites too, which I’ve definitely had on an indoor plant and are in fact WHY I no longer bother with indoor plants. If I did have an indoor plant and someone asked to put a ladybug there, I might accept because the bug could protect it, but that’s me. OP doesn’t liike bugs, OP had every right to tell coworker to rehome the bug somewhere else.

        4. Nita*

          Exactly! A ladybug can’t live on an indoor plant. Even if it was looking for a place to hibernate, an office is much worse than some random attic because of the potential of being stepped on, or being vacuumed up.

    3. Female*

      I disagree, and I think Alison’s response was perfect. Trying to kill (or convincing others that you have killed) a benign, culturally accepted animal for simply being next to you because you as an individual dislike it does not come across well. Similarly, killing a pigeon, which probably has fewer fans in our society than ladybugs, because it perched on your window balcony and you really didn’t like it there also won’t endear you to the rest of the office.

      1. lokilaufeysanon*

        Then he can take it elsewhere or put it in a plant in his office space. Someone clearly told him not to put it in the plant near their desk and he did it anyway.

        Also: birds and their droppings carry disease. A lot of buildings/companies actually do take measures to keep pidgeons and other such birds away from/off of their buildings. There actually jobs dedicated to keeping birds off of buildings/areas where they are unwanted (although, most of the ones I can think of don’t involve killing them).

        1. Female*

          I’m not saying he did the right thing, nor am I saying that I wouldn’t want pigeons gone too. However, in most industries, you don’t want to have the reputation of someone who kills animals that many others may be sympathetic to. I’m not going to whack a pigeon or a squirrel in front of a coworker unless it’s clearly dangerous, and I don’t think LW should be telling her coworkers that she deliberately killed a cute animal another coworker tried to save- why would you deliberately want to help spread rumors that you’re a sadist?

      2. (Different) Rebecca*

        Off topic, but I accidentally whapped a pigeon with my cane once. I thought it would move. It did not. My companion mercilessly mocked me for the rest of our time together.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        I’m kinda torn, because while “I’m a bug killer” is an overly aggressive stance when you are just glad the bug wandered off, it will dissuade him from moving in all the other bugs he finds.

        Probably more than “Dude, they eat aphids, not live plants. The plant receives antipest spray that wouldn’t be good for the bug, unlike the corner of your office where it was trying to hibernate. The responsible bug rescuer move is to leave any bugs you find in your office right there.”

        (Reminds me of a beach in Hawaii that had DO NOT RESCUE THE SEA TURTLES. THEY ARE FINE. THEY WILL SWIM OFF WHEN READY signs.)

      4. Yorick*

        Killing insects is pretty acceptable in our society, and is less gruesome than killing a pigeon would be.

        1. Ted Mosby*

          Very true. If he hadn’t made a big deal about putting it near her to save it, someone just killing a bug randomly wouldn’t even register for most people.

      5. Ted Mosby*

        This isn’t really relevant to what I posted. I didn’t defend OP saying she had killed the bug. I just don’t think the advice is likely to be useful.

      6. As Close As Breakfast*

        What doesn’t come across well is different for everyone though, isn’t it? I wouldn’t think twice about a coworker killing a insect. To me however, a coworker saying that another coworker killing an insect made that coworker a sadist and likening it to whacking a pigeon or a squirrel definitely would not come across well. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    4. Jenny*

      But Coworker didn’t think it was gross (just the opposite) and wasn’t moving it near OP to get it away from him. He was trying to save it, and he moved it near OP because that’s where the only plant was.

      1. Tiny Soprano*

        If I were Coworker I would buy myself a small desk-plant. It sounds like the issue was that the only plant in the office was near OP, who hates bugs. If Coworker got an alternative plant – or even moved the original plant if that’s an option – then he could release them somewhere that was a) not going to be horrible for OP, and b) be safe for the bug.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Well, also, coworker knows nothing about actually saving ladybugs. Like someone who finds a tortoise and helpfully throws it in the middle of a lake, because turtles look similar and he’s seen turtles there.

      2. lokilaufeysanon*

        It doesn’t matter, he should have found somewhere else to put it once he was asked not to put the bug there.

      3. Temperance*

        There’s actually nothing to suggest that right near LW was the “only” plant available. He sounds like a tool.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          Precisely. She mentioned telling him where other plants were that he could put it, and he didn’t feel like going to another floor.

      4. Ted Mosby*

        That’s not relevant to my point OP didn’t want the bug near her because she doesn’t like them. Alison’s advice was to have Coworker go put it somewhere else. So she would be advising OP to say “I don’t want that near me, why don’t you go put it next to Jane’s office instead.” I would personally find that really obnoxious.

    5. lokilaufeysanon*

      I agree with you. Allison really missed the mark on this one. It’s nice he wanted to save a bug, but that FFS, he was asked not to put it in the plant by LW’s desk.

    6. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

      I didn’t include the conversation for brevity but it went something like this:

      Coworker: I have a ladybug!
      Me: (nonplussed but unworried) Ew.
      Coworker: I brought it down here to put in the plant!
      Me: Ew, don’t put it in the plant.
      Coworker: I’m saving it!!
      Me: It’s gross, don’t put it in the plant. I don’t want a bug near me.
      Coworker: I’m doing it!
      Me: (this is where I was quite emphatic and obviously beginning to get upset) COWORKER, do not put it in the plant! I do not want bugs around here! I will kill it if you do that!
      Coworker: Pfft, no you won’t, I’m doing it anyway.

      Then later when he came back and I said I killed it, he said he didn’t believe me several times and then called me a monster.

      I get where Allison’s coming from, I just don’t see how much more clear I could have been! I come from office cultures where if someone is like “GET THAT AWAY FROM ME” you get it away from them. Not that it’s ever come up before because putting bugs outside is a thing!

      1. Pickles*

        I really question whether this answer would have been different if it was a different bug or crawly thing. Bedbug, spider, fly, centipede, flea…

        1. Justme*

          I agree. Just because it’s a cute bug doesn’t make it less of a bug that the LW didn’t want in her plant.

        2. Pickles*

          Ladybug-Hatin’ LW , you can also suggest he get his own plant to colonize, on his own floor. Or you can develop a newfound passion for carnivorous plants (which are surprisingly sensitive).

        3. JamieS*

          I doubt it. Alison’s answer came from the POV of “this is something the co-worker wants to save” so it doesn’t matter what it actually was.

        4. Alton*

          Well, in an objective level, some bugs are more harmful than others. Ladybugs aren’t known for hitching a ride on people and causing massive infestations in their homes like bedbugs are, for example. But centipedes seem pretty harmless.

          I think the co-worker was wrong not to listen to the OP, but I can sympathize with his desire to save the bug, and I’d feel the same way about any bug as long as it wasn’t posing a problem beyond just being present. Things like bedbugs and fleas suck (literally) because they bite people and infest homes, not just because they’re bugs.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            There are plenty of centipede species that have a venomous bite that can cause severe pain.

            1. Amadeo*

              Even the little inch long sort from the midwest US can cause pain for several hours. Ask me how I know.

          3. Temperance*

            Have you ever been inside a building with a ladybug infestation? It’s disgusting. So while not as objectively bad as a bedbug or a cockroach, it’s still not something you want in your building.

          4. paul*

            Scolependra are *not* harmless. We get S. hero in my area and those things are flipping huge and I find at least a couple per year in my yard and sometimes my house.

            I’m usually all onboard the leave alone or move outside train but I’m not even trying to catch one of those in a bottle or box.

          5. Jesca*

            Here is the thing. I think people who rescue dogs are great. I wouldn’t think they were so great if they walked over to my house, dropped a dog after I told them no, and then left – leaving with said dog. I would have no choice but to take to the only (kill-shelter) in the area as I cannot care for a dog.

            The point of the analogy is that its great if YOU are all for taking care of bugs – I will support you as far as not judging you and even offering you money from time to time, but you cannot, under any circumstances, volunteer anyone else to take on your cause. Sorry.

            2. Kate 2*

              Except a dog is a huge responsibility that requires a great deal of time, care and money. All the coworker did was expect OP to exist a few feet away from a totally harmless bug. Coworker wasn’t right, but expecting someone to breathe the same roomful of air as another being isn’t a huge deal. OP’s reaction, to tell Coworker she killed the totally harmless and actually beneficial animal kind of scares me.

              1. Lissa*

                Scares you how? I mean, I don’t think telling the guy she killed the bug was helpful (well maybe, he wont’ do it again!) or kind, but why scary?

              2. Temperance*

                Scares you? Really?

                I’m annoyed with men who think that they can do whatever they want, even when a woman tells them not to do something. He felt it appropriate to violate her totally reasonable boundary. He has no right to act shocked when a person follows up and does what they say they were going to do.

                Calling the bug an “animal” seems kind of like a deliberate way to lump LW in with people who kill kittens for fun.

                1. Kate 2*

                  Bugs are animals. That’s a fact, not an opinion. Also she didn’t tell him that she was going to kill it, she said “bugs are gross”.

                2. Temperance*

                  Actually yes, she did tell him that she would kill it if he put it in the plants near her. She commented with the dialogue.

                  So if she had actually killed this bug, it would have been on him, not her.

              3. Not So NewReader*

                I think that OP matched what was coming at her. Coworker basically said, “I don’t give a crap about what you think/want” and she said “Back at ya!” In general we should match or be only one step down from what we hear coming at us.

                At some point the story stopped being about the bug and started being about respecting other people.

        5. Antilles*

          The answer absolutely would have been different.
          If it was a bedbug, the co-worker’s desire to “save the bug from the cold” (or whatever) could legitimately cost the company thousands of dollars to replace furniture or shut down the office for fumigation. If it was a venomous spider and bites a co-worker, the company could potentially be liable for not providing a safe work space. These are real and direct costs to the company.
          So no, there’s no way that Alison would have responded with “…but it’s just a bug, don’t make a hassle about it” if it was a different/more dangerous bug.

      2. Myrin*

        This guy sounds hugely obnoxious. So obnoxious, in fact, that I’m not even sure there’s anything you could say or do to dissuade him of his mission other than placing the plant next to his desk and pooping in it.
        (And now that you’ve mentioned it, it sounds like there would be opportunity for him to just bring any bugs outside? That makes the whole scenario even weirder, like he wants to create a bug army with eternal loyalty to him or something.)

        1. Ted Mosby*

          Agree, that’s why I don’t think this advice would work. He blatantly does not give a ship if OP is annoyed or doesn’t want it near her. Asking again isn’t going to change how he feels.

      3. MsMorlowe*

        He sounds very irritating. I think some variation of “Next time, listen to me and trust me when I tell you I’m going to do something.” to be repeated ad nauseum will hopefully get it through to him. If he calls you bug-killer or whatever, you can just calmly say “Yes, I don’t like bugs, like lots of people. I don’t know why you’re still talking about this.” and change the subject.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        I can so, so, so easily picture that cheery ‘ha ha I’m doing it’ tone of “You’re saying absolutely no, but I’m going to ignore you and do it anyway because I am sure will realize I am right.” It’s an inability to take anyone else’s point of view.

        If he comes back, tell him ladybugs don’t eat plants, they eat aphids, and it was trying to not starve in the food desert where he cruelly moved it. Since he coldly, callously wouldn’t let it hibernate in his office as it was trying to do.

      5. CM*

        I guess what you’re saying, OP#2, is “I’m setting a clear boundary” and what Alison is saying is “Saying you killed a living creature (even if you didn’t really) is not a good way to set a boundary.” Both of which are reasonable but I’m with the OP here. If the coworker continues to bring it up, I would just repeat, “I don’t understand why you would put a bug near me when I told you in advance that I will kill bugs near me.” He can call you a monster all he wants, but you were very clear and he ignored you. I’d look out for other boundary-crossing behaviors with this guy.

        1. Another person*

          This. Having engaged in variations of:
          ‘Person: I’m gonna do a thing
          Me: No you aren’t
          Person: I’m gonna do a thing
          Me: No you aren’t
          Person: I’m really gonna do a thing
          Me: No you aren’t
          Person: I’m so totally gonna do a thing
          Me: So help me I will end you
          Person: *Backs down*’
          way too many times I can’t fault the OP for a less than perfect reaction because the OP did her job, she put up the boundary. The guy just streamrolled right over it. CM is right, keep an eye on your interactions with this guy. Especially combined with the calling you a monster stuff this guy is trying to get a reaction from you.

        2. Bug Saver*

          This. I think the boundary crossing is being written off a little too easily. For that reason I don’t think it would even be too unreasonable to talk to the boss. A conversation about how inappropriate it was to ignore LW’s express wishes like that seems in order, since even if it was only a bug this time it could cause big problems next time. And given the way he’s been acting it doesn’t sound like it would be too effective coming from LW.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          CW left OP no choice really. OP had to put it in terms that CW would understand. He did not understand, “no don’t do that”, so OP had to find something that he would relate to. This happens sometimes when people do not allow us to communicate with them.

      6. BPT*

        I’m with you. If anybody purposefully puts a bug near me (or I just see one) I’m killing it. No question. Ladybugs are the worst too – I hate them so much. They cling to you even when you try to brush them off. Coworker was obnoxious and Alison was unfortunately off the mark here. I can’t even go to sleep in my apartment when I know there’s a bug in there, so I definitely can’t do work when I know there’s one near me. It’s not even a phobia, it’s just a regular fear of bugs. I don’t care if it’s not rational, but I’m not going to accommodate someone trying to start a bug colony in my office near me.

      7. stej*

        Well, I agree with your approach and think the coworker is in the wrong here. Your plant is in your space and that is your domain. Bug-killer or not bug-killer, he overstepped and that’s the main issue here.

      8. Elizabeth H.*

        This sounds like a really dumb exchange. I love bugs and am horrified at the idea of killing a ladybug, but yes your coworker sounds annoying. But it also kind of sounds like a miscommunication in terms of tone/intent. The fact that the conversation started out pretty casually sort of belied how strongly you felt and it seemed like it was hard for it to switch to a serious mode even when you were so emphatic. Maybe if you had tried to explain how strongly you felt in a serious but less energetic way, without referencing that you would kill it, which sounds dramatic and so he might not have taken seriously that you would actually do that. Once again, he was clearly being really annoying and not listening to you but it could be more of a misunderstanding than deliberately defying what he understood to be your strong wishes.

        I love spiders and would probably not take someone seriously when they’re like “Ew, get it away from me.” I would probably be like “No! Spiders are harmless and so interesting and fantastic!” I know some people have spider phobias, like I witnessed one of my friends have a panic reaction and felt very sympathetic, but if someone were just like “Ew, they are so gross” I probably wouldn’t take them seriously at first. I would worry that they would kill the spider though so I wouldn’t put it near them! I have a really low opinion of people who kill spiders, even if you have a phobia you can ask someone else to remove them.

      9. Tuxedo Cat*

        It was like he wasn’t even listening to you.

        I don’t blame you for what you said. I hope he learned that he shouldn’t put bugs in your plant when you repeatedly said no.

      10. Close Bracket*

        I almost wish you had killed it in front of him as soon as he left it in your plant. I love ladybugs, and would not mind having one in my plant at all (less thrilled about the aphids it would need to eat). I can’t stand obnoxious people who ignore you when you say you don’t like something.

      11. Nanani*

        I think the response was pretty-victim blamey and I’m sorry you got let down.

        Seriously? “Are you sure you said NO the right way?”

        LW got their consent trampled on, over something they are 100% entitled to have (a bug-free workspace).
        I’m not going to argue the merits of this particular bug, but I am very disappointed that the consent issue and personal space issue are ignored.

        What even the hell. I expect better.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          It’s a ladybug. Are we really getting into consent and personal space over something that is smaller than your fingernail?

    7. Greg M.*

      honestly this sounds deliberate to me. he used to work with her but currently isn’t even on her floor so he knows her. he made a big production of doing it and blatantly ignored her protests to do it. Cheery person boundary stomping trend.

      “I’m a hugger” “I was just trying to be friendly”

      “what do you mean you don’t like chocolate, here try some, no try some, come on” “I was just trying to be nice”

      “what do you mean you don’t like bugs, it’s jsut a lady bug I’ll leave it here” “why would you do that to the ladybug”

      gets to look “nice” gets to play the victim, gets attention all while getting away with refusing to respect boundaries.

      if he cared so much, he already was going to a different floor he could have put it outside or at an open window.

      1. lokilaufeysanon*

        This, this so much. You put it so much better than I did. Yeah, It’s a ladybug, but he was asked not to do it and then went ahead and did it anyway. He could have saved it in any other way, but deliberately chose to do something someone asked him not to do – and he went way out of his way to do it, too.

      3. Lora*

        This.

        I actually LIKE bugs. When I was working in New Mexico my colleagues used to bring me errant tarantulas. The day my dog fetched me a freshly-hatched praying mantis egg case with two tiny mantises still attached was one of the most delightful memories of this year, and I adore the stick insects I find on the side of my house. I let parts of my vegetable garden get overrun with milkweed for the monarch butterflies.

        But you TOLD your co-worker. He had been told. He blew you off. This is not good.

        At the same time it doesn’t rise to the level of something to tell your boss. But keep an eye out for it becoming a pattern. Maybe co-worker learned his lesson about not taking you at your word and that’s the end of it. Hopefully he did.

        Caveat, I may be overly sensitive about people who blow off other people’s clearly stated concerns.

      6. Slow Gin Lizz*

        If he likes ladybugs so much, he could have just brought it home and taken good care of it there. (I have several in my apt right now and they’re annoying when they buzz around but mostly they are just chilling so I’ve been ignoring them and hoping they go away.)

        OP, though, should probably have told the truth that it just left on its own accord instead of telling him she’d killed it. She would have been warranted in killing it, for sure, but there wasn’t anything to be gained by making up a story that makes her seem mean to him, Saver of Ladybugs.

        I agree that she shouldn’t say anything unless this comes up again.

    8. JulieBulie*

      IMO the only thing #2’s coworker did wrong was announce the ladybug’s presence. If he hadn’t mentioned it, I don’t think OP#2 would ever have seen it.

      But since he did mention it, he should have been open to OP’s objection and not at all surprised when she killed the bug. (As for whether or not it was “wrong” to kill it, that is OP’s business.)

  11. Woman*

    I don’t understand what happened with #1. There are comments suggesting her firing was justified, but I think more details are required. If she got dressed up and jokingly asked for candy, that’s one thing. Dressed up and seriously asked for candy, another. Disregard the stuffy comment- if said directly to her manager in private, that’s merely a conversation about culture and inappropriate language to use in professional settings. The first situation- send her home to change. The second- send her home to change. Was she seen by clients? I just don’t see how this is a fireable offense unless she was truly rude and embarrassing to clients. Who are your clients? Most people are forgiving of a misunderstand and wouldn’t demand immediate retribution for a faux pas.

    1. Ted Mosby*

      If she got dressed up and jokingly asked for candy, that’s one thing.

      Not in finance.

      Disregard the stuffy comment- if said directly to her manager in private, that’s merely a conversation about culture and inappropriate language to use in professional settings.

      Not in finance.

      I’m not saying it was justified per say. But finance is a very formal, cut throat environment. A week in a financial services firm is enough for anyone with basic common sense to know you don’t dress up for halloween, and you definitely don’t ask for candy. Doing so shows a major lapse in judgement. In a lot of jobs, one major judgement lapse when you’re new to the working world is ok, but not in most financial firms. It’s just the reality of that environment, right or wrong.

      1. Sara smile*

        Completely agree. I feel like many responses totally do not understand that this was financial services .

      2. Lilo*

        It is also a “read the room” thing. She walked into a meeting where she was the only person dressed up and proceeded to ask the room, that included clients, for candy? That is really poor judgment. There are plenty officer ways to reference while still being acceptable, whole blog for Disney characters. Just really poor judgment at multiple points.

        1. Tuxedo Cat*

          I can’t think of any job where an adult professional would go around asking for candy and that be acceptable.

      3. Ellen*

        I worked at *mcdonalds* and knew that I had to clear any “awesome costume ideas” with them first. I knew this when I was 16 years old. Even if the whole entire idea involved a pair of antennae on a hairband and a pair of fairy wings on elastics. I’m not a professional like many if you, I’m a food service/customer service/direct care/substitute teacher level of employee. I can see being fired for her costumed trick or treating, arrogant talking back debacle. And that is from any of the entry level, low pay, no respect positions I have held.

        1. The Strand*

          Ellen, if you work in food service, customer service, direct care, or are a substitute teacher, it doesn’t make you any less a professional. Certain fields have certain requirements, but I think after reading so many letters for so many years – and working with occasional bozos who have a lot of letters after their name – being a professional is far more about demeanor and attitude than it is about job title or level.

          1. Observer*

            I agree with you that true professionalism has nothing to do with how “high” or well paid your position is. But Ellen’s point is that even in her non-white collar jobs it was clear that you don’t pull this stuff. Princess’ background just isn’t all that relevant here.

        2. Birdie*

          I agree with you Ellen! In all of my jobs the Halloween/Holidays in general were treated differently. One restaurant I worked at required costumes, another it was strictly a ‘no no’. Regardless it’s always good even if you are absolutely sure!

          I can’t decide on whether or not I personally think it was a fire able offense.

      4. One of the Sarahs*

        And not just finance. I know every field has its own spectrum, but I can’t see this flying in law, police, government, hospitals etc etc.
        And especially if there are meetings with external attendees!
        To me, the fact she didn’t check it out with a manager first is what makes it egregious. No one will reprimand a new, fresh out of uni hire for asking something like that!

      5. Mike C.*

        Quit throwing around this “basic common sense” stuff. Take little more than an excuse not to teach people, especially new people, cultural norms and standards.

        People sometimes have to be told things. Not every environment is the same. She was new and she caused no harm. These firms are just acting in a self important manner, nothing more.

        1. Myrin*

          It does sound like Tiana dealt well with the cultural norms and standards up until this point, though.

          Yes, OP says she’s “sure [Tiana] was still figuring out how things work in office and finance environments” but that does seem to be more of a guess on the OP’s part based on her employee being young and new-ish to the office, not an any particular instance of similar misjudgment. She doesn’t give any examples of Tiana previously not adhering to the quite strict and very formal standards and in fact says that “[t]here were no red flags from her at any time and this came out of left field”.

          And I think that’s what people are reacting to – five months was sufficiently long enough for her to figure out that the atmosphere is “stuffy” so surely she couldn’t have thought this would go over well? Of course sometimes people need to be explicitly told things, but I don’t think it’s weird for OP’s place of work to not even think about needing to spell out that employees aren’t allowed to dress up when a) this has never happend before in the firm’s history and b) they don’t even allow open-toed shoes and require wearing suits every day.

        2. eplawyer*

          The office manual spells out the dress code. If the dress code says you must wear a suit every day, it’s fairly obvious you don’t wear a halloween costume. A princess costume is not a suit. Therefore it is not to be worn.

          Presumably this is someone who got a degree in finance and had done internships in the field. She knew the field she was getting into before being hired. She knew it was stuffy. I’m reminded when I was in law school and the first year moot court argument required that we wear suits. Some complained that they didn’t want to buy a suit or wear one. I told them they better find another profession because lawyers wear suits.

          1. Allison*

            Possibly, but finance stretches beyond financial firms. She could have done her internships at “fun” companies and startup-y software companies, lots of companies have in-house finance teams. But you’re right, you don’t major in finance without learning about the typical culture for a financial firm.

          2. Mike C.*

            If it’s spelled out, why are the employee manuals being reprinted?

            Even then, you’re completely ignoring my greater point about “common sense”. It’s something that’s taught, not something you’re born with.

            1. Been there*

              The director wants it reprinted because apparently one person didn’t understand that the dress code is enforced every day. Princess wrongly inferred that every day doesn’t include halloween and costumes. Therefore the director now wants it explicitly stated in case they hire another princess.

              Let me ask a question… we all read a drivers manual at some point in our lives, right? The drivers manual states that the speed limit in a residential zone is 35 mph. Do you really think you’d be able to argue successfully that you know that it says that’s the speed limit, but it’s indy 500 day so I assumed we all get to drive faster?

            2. Jesca*

              Because she potentially could have done damage. Like it or not, some industries need a certain level of sense (reading the room, picking up on industry social norms on one’s own, etc.) than what this person had shown. They can’t have mistakes like that. Why? Because there is a big difference between running some numbers for a couple hundred thou and handling clients with accounts in the multi-millions to billions. People don’t want to see mistakes, at all – ever, like this in those arenas. They want people who look serious. That is pretty standard in any industry handling large sums of money. The more money you handle, the more serious you need to look. I mean look at a bank. A bank teller with a many banks dress more business casual where as the personal/business/financial bankers will look more traditional business. Do you understand now? It may not make sense to you, because you do not understand the nuance, but yes she could have absolutely lost them huge clients if the clients felt the company did not take their roles seriously or felt they hired people who acted so childish.

              We sometimes need to recognize that we don’t always understand the context of something. We don;t always understand that in some industries, fair or not from the outside, there are fireable offenses that may seem extreme.

            3. Katherine*

              The employee manuals are being reprinted because of people like you, who are unfamiliar with (or averse to) such concepts as “the spirit of the law,” “reading the room,” and, yes, “common sense.” The powers-that-be assumed that with such a strict dress code, a person would not (a) decide there was probably an implicit exception for Halloween and (b) not even get confirmation before showing up to work in a princess costume. They were proven wrong, for the first time in the OP’s decade-long tenure. So they’re revising the manual. Should they also put it in the manual that employees may not clip their toenails at their desks, just in case an unforeseeable situation arises in which a person decides to do so, and then argues that they shouldn’t be criticized because there’s no rule against it?

              And I disagree that common sense is taught, but even if it is, it’s not the company’s job to teach it to someone who made essentially no effort to obtain it on her own (didn’t ask before wearing a costume, didn’t apologize to her supervisor or seek clarification on why the costume was a problem).

        3. Falling Diphthong*

          Honestly, if I were a client? And one of your staff came into our serious, long-planned meeting of people in business formal, with a plastic pumpkin, and went around trying to get us to give her candy? I can see that causing harm. Maybe the client brushes it off; maybe they privately note they don’t want to put weirdly on the spot like that again, given that they don’t carry Reeses Cups with them everywhere, and avoid your firm in future.

          Being “the place with that really weird employee who ignores boundaries” isn’t usually a good thing. Even if the behavior would be unexceptional in a different context. If it’s really weird in this context, people don’t enjoy having to explain to the large princess that they are not carrying M&Ms.

          1. Cat*

            You’re picturing the trick-or-treating as being a lot more formal than I am. I assumed she just said “trick or treat,” which seems like a way of acknowledging that she’s in costume as much as anything else. I can see trying to brazen your way out of an awkward situation you got yourself into that way.

            1. Coalea*

              I imagined that she had a plastic pumpkin (or some other receptacle to put candy in), and pictured her going up to each of the meeting attendees, saying “trick or treat,” and holding out the pumpkin expectantly.

              1. Kelly L.*

                I have trouble imagining her drawing it out that long–I pictured her just ducking her head in and going “Trick or treat,” hoping for a laugh, and then leaving.

                1. Falling Diphthong*

                  Why?

                  Seriously, if you have noticed that you are the only person in the office wearing a costume, then I get trying to discreetly climb down the outside of the building. I don’t get casting about for the most “do not annoy these people, at risk of your job” office inhabitants that you can find–clients and senior execs, together in one confined space–and running in to be sure that they notice you. Assuming some minimal business ability to notice and abide by social norms–i.e. I understand her wearing the costume as an honest oops–this is a weird thing to do.

                2. Kelly L.*

                  I mean, I don’t know why?? Maybe she was just walking by? I have no idea. But I can picture that more easily than walking around the room trick-or-treating each person individually.

                3. Observer*

                  That clearly did NOT happen – the OP says that one of the C-Suite people asked her to leave. That means that she came in and STAYED, not ducking in and then leaving.

              1. Teacher*

                I was replying to Cat. I also suspect the trick or treat was an awkward attempt at a joke once she realized her error.

        4. mst13*

          After five months, I don’t consider someone new enough to be making this kind of mistake. My first week in at my company, I looked up the dress code in the handbook. With a dress code this strict, she should have at least asked someone (direct manager or peer) about Halloween costumes, given the culture.

        5. Snark*

          No, dude, this really is basic common sense. No functional person should have to be told not to do this. It’s so obviously not A Thing that if you need to be told it’s not A Thing, you have no business being there because your judgment is fatally flawed.

          And how do you know she did no harm?

          You side with the employee most of the time, but c’mon.

          1. Mike C.*

            Dude, I would ask that you look at my post below where I go into much more detail about this issue.

            1. Snark*

              Sorry, but I think you’re fundamentally off base here, regardless of the detail level. This is the definition of common sense. This is something that someone with five months, five days, five hours on the job should be able to put together without being told. And if they don’t, they lack a certain combination of observation, judgement, and processing of the world around them that lets most people read a room, err on the side of caution, put two and two together, pick your cliche. That is what common sense is and how it works. The finer points of workplace etiquette and conduct might need to be taught, this is an example of what should not have to be.

              1. Falling Diphthong*

                One aspect of common sense is being attuned to the social norms around you, and adjusting your behavior if you’re out of sync.

                “Woops, I’m out of sync with the people around me” –> adjusting your behavior toward that norm, or at least toward not sticking out too much. Not repeatedly doubling down on the thing that’s out of sync.

        6. Helpful*

          There was a dress code!!!!! This was not a suit. For heavens sake, you’re doubling down on this issue without good reason.

          1. Mike C.*

            I never said she didn’t screw up. I’m just tired of experienced people bragging about how much more they know than someone who’s five months on the job.

            1. Snark*

              I can tell you that I would have known not to do this with five hours on the job, if not five minutes, and so would you, and Helpful, and 99.5% of posters here. Guaranteed. This is not arcana.

            2. moirabanana*

              I’m in my early 20s, only worked retail jobs, but even I would’ve known not to do this. Hell, I wouldn’t have dressed up at my current job before asking and it’s the complete opposite of a stuffy work environment.

            3. Kelly O*

              Mike, I appreciate your playing devil’s advocate, but this is just ridiculous.

              In a financial firm, with a handbook that clearly states their dress code, this person chose to not only come in full Disney princess regalia because it was what she wanted, she interrupted a client meeting with a juvenile “trick or treat” for whatever reason. She had been there five months, and was aware of the conservative nature of her workplace (“stuffy” she called it) and decided to take it upon herself to change that.

              And not with a simple to remove “costume” – she didn’t have a backup plan. There are ways to be festive without being tone-deaf. Most people understand this, and the fact she didn’t is a sign she’s probably not a good fit for this company.

              I don’t understand why you are taking this one so personally. This isn’t experienced people bragging. This is basic understanding of the workplace.

              1. Mike C.*

                I’m not, nor do I ever play devil’s advocate. I’m not telling these personal stories as an intellectual exercise, I’m telling them because this is what I believe.

                I agree that she really screwed up, but when there are hundreds of comments that say “I’m so much better than she is, I know more than she does and I would have never screwed up like this” it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There are likely ten thousand things we could group together as “common sense” and no one is aware of them all. It just turns out in this case that it blew up in this woman’s face.

                1. Snark*

                  You persist in representing the wearing of the costume as the screwup. The screwup was crashing the meeting and insisting she did nothing wrong, not wearing the costume.

                  And yes, my dude, I would never have done that, whether my saying so leaves a bad taste or not.

        7. The Strand*

          I have to agree with Mike to a degree.

          There are some people coming out of school right now that have been overtly spoon-fed to not fail, to get to a certain level. This is NOT about them being young. They have poor judgment, because they’re hothouse flowers who have received extensive coaching to get where they are. They think that there is one proper answer, and that they just need to find it out, ace the test, and they’ll be successful.

          A friend of mine teaches in an extremely competitive graduate program. It’s only the second month and a number of students have approached the professors and chair, demanding that they be taught more “relevant” material, and given more “answers” (one student said, “I’m really busy, and I’m tired. Just tell me what answers I need for the next test so I can pass it.”).

          These are not high schoolers. These are kids with bachelor’s degrees, who are bitching and moaning over the expectation of reading book chapters. And it is precisely the high flyers who are struggling with this – who need help gauging the norms and standards, a la the “dress code” interns.

          This is exactly the kind of graduate pool we deserve, though having passed over the teaching of common sense (qualitative knowledge, reflection), because quantitative measures like testing scores are easier to understand, and relatively “cheap”.

          1. Snark*

            But….”has poor judgment because of lack of reflection and qualitative knowledge” is as good a definition of “lacks common sense” as any other.

            1. Snark*

              That said, I understand and agree with your assessment of a lot of recent grads, I just think that background is not incompatible with saying “this is a problem with basic common sense.”

          2. Not So NewReader*

            It could be my experience but I am thinking that many people are seeing the same thing. I started getting my degree decades ago. I finished up a little bit more than ten years ago. The amount of nightly reading required for courses went up by a huge multiplier. The first time I went we might do 50-100 pages per night per course. When I went back it was pretty normal to have to read 400-500 pages per night per course. Sorry, I am not able to read 2000-2500 pages per night. That will not happen. Most people I spoke with did not complete the readings. Since TPTB were deaf in regard to hearing this problem, students reacted in kind by not caring. Thus, “let me pass the test”.
            Grad school is worse. I met docs who admitted the only way they could get through med school was with speed.
            “I’m really busy, I am tired.” is a wild understatement of the actual problem.

        8. Susanne*

          “Quit throwing around this “basic common sense” stuff. Take little more than an excuse not to teach people, especially new people, cultural norms and standards.”

          People who are going to get ahead in this world — regardless of what kind of background they come from — watch, observe, listen, ask questions if need be. They don’t make this kind of mistake because they have the self-awareness to know that they are in a new environment.

          People who are going to stay at low-level jobs all their lives don’t watch, observe, listen, ask questions. They just do, and say “don’t like it? too bad!”

          Now, you may want to characterize the former as “white collar / professional norms” and the latter as “blue collar norms.” I, however, don’t; I see absolutely no linkage between one’s ability to observe one’s environment, and the type of environment one is raised in. There are plenty of blue collar people who would get this in a heartbeat, and it’s insulting to them to suggest otherwise.

          (Likewise, there are plenty of white collar people who can transition to / work effectively in environments with blue collar people. These are not separate Orbs of Life that require special training to navigate.)

          1. fposte*

            I disagree with Mike in this particular situation, but I agree that “common sense” is too often a phrase that dismisses how much is common *experience*, not innate logic, and I generally reserve it for stuff like sticking your hand back into a fire that’s burned you.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I have seen the term common sense used as a crutch for not giving proper training. I think that assuming something is common sense is on a par with assuming that everyone is the same as the speaker. And that is not true at all.

          2. EmilyAnn*

            I have a good family friend who in his early 20s got into a work-study type program with a major financial firm in the U.K. His parents were/are government workers so solidly middle class, not used to high finance office culture. In his first few months he was in a bar talking to a co-worker at a work HH and mentioned the name of a client. A more senior collegue took him aside and told him to never talk about clients in public because it’s indiscreet. He apologized, came home and talked to us about how mortified he was and how glad he was to be taken aside quietly instead of public embarassed for a mistake. That’s a person who is willing to learn, despite not being educated on the specific norms of how to act. The topic of this letter is going to struggle until they’re willing to read norms and take advice.

        9. AKchic*

          From a client’s viewpoint: If I am paying a company hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to safeguard my millions (possibly billions) of dollars of assets (properties, stocks, taxes, banking, the whole shebang) and after spending a lot of time organizing a face-to-face group meeting with everyone for a major meeting to handle something very important (let’s say I’m creating a grant for underprivileged youth, or maybe buying more property, who knows, who cares – but it’s still worth millions of dollars, and I’m paying *YOUR* firm $1500 an hour for this, plus at least 4 other people in the room are billing at least $300/hr for their time for the clients they represent as well). And here comes one of your junior staffers in a costume. And then, whether joking or not, wastes our time with “Trick or Treat”.
          Yes, as a client paying a lot of money, who entrusts you and your company with my money, I’m going to judge you. Both as the person handling my financial affairs, and as a person who hires someone so monumentally bereft of “common sense”, who fails to realize the gravitas of the situation before her. Who has no timing, no sense of decorum, and would rather play kiddie games than act responsibly and be an adult at a meeting about MY money.

          And I say this as a cosplayer and an actor. Timing is everything. This was not the time to dress up, nor the time to double down. This was the time to know your audience, read the room and above all else – play the part she was assigned and no ad lib.

        10. Ted Mosby*

          I didn’t say anything about basic common sense. Basic common sense is not enough to cut it in financial services and never will be. If you need to be told not to wear a costume into a meeting at 22, then financial services aren’t for you. No one in that industry is going to coach you on those kinds of norms.

          1. Ted Mosby*

            Actually maybe I did in first level comment. Either way, she wasn’t an intern, and the argument holds 0 water with me. A company isn’t going to teach you this kind of thing at 22. If you can’t read the room, don’t know when to ask for permission, and think people are too stuffy, you’re not going to make it in FS long term. There are tons of industries where people won’t hold your hand and hug you after a bad day.

        11. Kate 2*

          Um, no. An environment in which *open-toed shoes* are forbidden and *actual suits* are required every day for every employee is not one where anyone should have to be told not to dress up for Halloween. It’s on the same level as expecting female employees to wear bras, and male employees not to wear shorts.

        12. Turtle Candle*

          Mike, for one thing, it’s kind of grating to hear you tell people to quit doing X or Y when you’re not the owner of this site. I get that you’re a long-term commenter, but it’s weird to see you acting as if you’re a moderator. It frankly reads to me as condescending in a sexist way, as if Alison can’t manage her own website without you banging all over the comments repeatedly demanding that people reply the way you prefer. I have to say, as a queer woman, it often feels as if you’re white-knighting for your own benefit, and I think you should seriously consider that–and especially be careful when you tell other people, especially women, to shut up because they don’t fit you ideas of how they ‘should’ talk in public spaces. I am a queer woman of lower-class origin, and I feel as if you’re kind of trying to take over my voice when you say things like that. You have a right to your own voice, but not to stomp on mine.

          For another thing, your point seems to be that the Tiana cosplayer didn’t know that what she was doing was wrong, and thus deserved an explanation–but that’s expressly contradicted in the LW’s letter itself, where she says that Tiana said that she “wanted to bring fun to our “stuffy” office.” Had she said “oh crud, I misread the situation, I’m sorry,” that would be one thing. But her own words indicate that she knew that it was outside the bounds of the culture, and did it anyway. Education can’t fix a problem that is “I know this isn’t how things work but I’m doing it anyway.”

    2. Renamis*

      She went into an important client meeting, with C-Suite execs there, and asked for candy. You don’t show up to an important meeting in costume without making sure everyone is on board with it. And you certainly don’t hit everyone up for candy while you’re at it.

      1. Daria Grace*

        I work in an office of a financial services firm that is very relaxed compared to many in the industry (we can usually wear jeans). Even so, when leadership a level or two down from the C-suite comes to visit, we’re asked to dress nicely and be careful of how we behave.

      2. AKchic*

        I still have to marvel at the audacity and tenacity of the entire situation.

        She came to work wearing this costume. She *had* to have been seen by at least one person while going to her desk space. Yet not one person thought to say anything to her about changing her clothes, nor did it dawn on her that she was the only one dressed up and maybe she was improperly attired. Nobody mentions it to supervisors.
        She continues on her way because nobody HAS called her out on her costume (tacit approval by silence?). She brazenly marches into the meeting. Again, nobody in costume except her. All eyes on her. Whether she is embarrassed or basking in the glow of the attention, we have no idea. But then “Trick or Treat” falls from her lips. Again, whether this was a face-saving joke, or a planned joke is moot because it doesn’t matter. It was said and that’s all that matters. She is asked to leave and does so. She is spoken to and instead of apologizing for anything, she doubles down. This whole day seems to be one cataclysmic abomination of abstract could-haves and should-haves. There were so many failed opportunities to catch this dumpster fire of an idea before she ever got to the client interaction stage.

        Am I blaming anyone who didn’t speak up, either directly to her or to a supervisor? No, not at all. For all we know, someone DID speak directly to her and she brushed that person off. Everyone may have mistakenly thought she received permission to dress like that, because why else would someone dress so outside of the office cultural norm. She may have purposely avoided all supervisory staff and meant to shake that meeting up. Again – we don’t know.

        Tiana – I need answers. You are an immature enigma and I want to know! *swoon*

    3. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like she went around a room filled with the top executives and important clients, wearing a princess getup and asking for candy. Bizarre and disruptive. At 5 months, she definitely wouldn’t have enough value to the company to compensate for that ridiculousness. I think a formal warning and time off without pay (or similar Big Deal punishment) would be more fitting, but I’m not surprised she got fired.

      1. Jen S. 2.0*

        This is a critical part to me. She was a new-ish junior employee, and thus expendable. Much like, ahem, axing interns, also for clothing issues.

    4. MK*

      I absolutely would not disregard the “stuffy” comment, to me that’s the worst thing. A conversation with your manager about why you did something that was has gotten you into trouble with higher-ups is not a private chat about culture; you are basically in the position of defending your actions, and further offending your boss during it is a big deal.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Yes, this is a conversation in which your boss is trying to ensure that you understand why not to do this again, so not the time to stubbornly insist that the company’s “stuffiness” is the real problem.

          1. Lora*

            No, Mike is right here: this should have been addressed in some kind of new employee orientation within the first week or two.

            At every large company that had New Employee Orientation as multiple days, the company culture on these points was spelled out in little words. Along with explanations of why you can’t say racist or sexist or otherwise bigoted things. And there’s always going to be at least one person in the room who has to be told explicitly that they are being racist/sexist/whatever. I’m not even talking subtle things, I’m talking there’s ALWAYS one dude who has to be told not to touch people’s butts. There’s always one dude who has to be told not to make unfunny “jokes” about Asian names. First week orientation is for that. That’s the time for explaining the company holiday party vs Secret Santa, the time for giving everyone the Help desk phone number, the time for telling people not to be a-holes, the time for telling the peasants not to EVER go in the board room without an invitation, and the time for telling people that Halloween is not celebrated. They need to revise their new hire orientation, is what they can do.

            1. Fictional Butt*

              I used to work in training development. My experience was, if someone really doesn’t get something, putting a bullet point on a slide in orientation is not going to help them. People learn through experience, and I think that was happening correctly here. Tiana made a mistake, and her boss told her she’d messed up. The fact that she reacted badly (saying the firm was too stuffy) instead of accepting the criticism makes me think this is not a problem that could be solved by training.

              But my memory is that Mike C also works in training, and has a lot more experience than me, so I’m genuinely curious to know what his training solution would be in this situation.

              1. Mike C.*

                Really? There’s a ton of things I didn’t know that were solved by those very same bullet points.

                1. Lora*

                  Agree. Things I’ve seen solved by orientation training slide decks:

                  -Do not throw toxic waste down the drain. We have a special container for that, which will be emptied by staff hired for the purpose of handling toxic waste. Putting it in the drain will result in 1. massive fines for the company 2. you getting fired 3. dozens of poisoned children dying because of your carelessness. (Academic chemists: but we did that all the time at Famous University!)
                  -Generally, do not make things blow up. If you must make something go boom, let it at least be a small boom. (Academic chemists or occasionally older guys from Texas: Wow, you Yankees really overrreact to a little explosion and a few dead bodies!)
                  -Do not touch people other than a handshake. Especially do not touch people’s private parts of their body. Ever. You have no legitimate reason to touch someone’s butt. (Jerks: She misunderstood! It was a compliment! She’s making a big deal out of nothing!)
                  -When doing a dangerous thing, wear personal protective equipment. We will buy you the personal protective equipment you need. Here is the form to fill out. (Employees recently hired from India, Bangladesh, parts of China: Wow, we never had that at Union Carbide/American Cyanamid/BASF/Binhai/CUFL!)
                  -Do not say or do racist or sexist things at work. Here is a list of examples. If you do that here, we will fire you. Your jokes are not funny. (A depressing number of people: That’s not really (whatever), my uncle says it all the time! I’ve always said that! It’s really a compliment! I was misunderstood! I didn’t mean to be (whatever)!)
                  -Do not download porn on work computers. (A bunch of people will invariably try to have a poker face and fail.)

                2. fposte*

                  @Lora–you’re making me curious. What’s the metric that makes you say this solved the problem? Did you guys have those problems and then institute this training with new hires, at which point the problems went away? How do you decide what gets added to the “don’ts” as the years roll on?

                3. Lora*

                  @fposte:
                  Did you guys have those problems and then institute this training with new hires, at which point the problems went away?

                  Yes, this. The vast majority of the time, people are embarrassed that they screwed up and at least try not to do it again. Once in a while they don’t, but the company is legally (somewhat) protected by being able to say hey, we tried to train people and this one person ignored our training, it really was an accident. Regulators (e.g. the EPA who was visiting because wastewater contaminants spiked or a jury wanting to know why your employer fired the ONE black guy in the whole company) are more understanding of you if you have training and precautions in place but you had this one goofy employee who went CooCoo for Cocoa Puffs. If it looks like you’re not even trying, they really have zero sense of humor.

                  How do you decide what gets added to the “don’ts” as the years roll on?

                  Mostly reactive – someone does a thing that had not previously been imagined, and either it’s egregious enough that it merits adding to the list, or it’s happened more than once and after a little internet sleuthing/consultant-paying/asking around it turns out that this is a thing we should have realized. For example, in Chinese culture it’s perfectly normal to talk about medical issues and religion in a way that is unacceptably too-personal to Americans, so that got added to the list. And many things are the direct result of regulatory changes or legislation: in the early 2000s there was a lot of reaction to the Vizcaino vs. Microsoft lawsuit and a lot of companies added specific language around hiring temporary workers: no keeping them longer than a year unless they have a specific project, make a decision about hiring them in. Teaching new hires that was a big surprise to many because in my industry we also relied heavily on permatemps, and that changing was a big deal.

                4. fposte*

                  @Lora–this is absolutely fascinating, thanks. You deal with an international workforce in a way I don’t yet and I really like the pragmatism you’ve brought to it.

              2. The Strand*

                I’m guessing that your former workplace, Fictional Butt, didn’t do any evaluation of training. It can be done. A lot of companies cheap out on training when it can be so crucial to success!

                FPoste, my suggestion is that you look up the Kirkpatrick model. There absolutely are metrics that can and should be measured.

            2. JeanB in NC*

              Yeah, I think a lot of that is putting way too much pressure on an orientation. Besides, you don’t know that it was a large company – stuffy financial firms can be quite small. And I don’t know anywhere that does a whole week of orientation, especially one that includes “don’t pat co-workers on their butt” and “don’t dress up for Halloween”.

            3. Mike C.*

              This is exactly what I’m talking about, thanks Lora.

              You set the standards and you hold people to them. If people don’t know those standards, they’re going to make their best guess. Sometimes they guess wrong. Sometimes when they guess wrong, they roll a critical failure.

              1. yasmara*

                And I’m still concerned that some of this was coded racism…”doesn’t fit in with our norms in finance” type thing…I would love to hear more from the OP or from Tiana herself.

                1. Lora*

                  It can be both, for sure.

                  Really, that’s why having specific training is so important: it eliminates the possibility of doubt. At this point in my career (I’m old) I am jaded enough that I assume if someone cannot point to specific “this rule was violated, rule was written out in little words, employee ignored and kept doing Wrong Thing” with a pile of documentation, I just assume it’s discrimination.

                  Of course, plenty of times when they did make a pile of documentation, it’s still discrimination because Chad Worthingford the IVth does the same thing and it’s no big deal, but at least they went to the effort to cover their tracks a little, which demonstrates a modicum of self-awareness that they’re being a-holes.

              2. Snark*

                But guessing wrong was wearing the costume. That was understandable and recoverable. The critical failure wasn’t that, it was deciding to ride the bomb all the way down once arriving at work and seeing precisely nobody else in costume, then going trick or treating anyway.

                1. One of the Sarahs*

                  Yeah, I don’t understand how after 10 mins of realising she was the only one in costume, and she wasn’t getting admiring comments, she didn’t go home and change, or take the day off.

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  She decided she was going to change the atmosphere in this company. She said it was stuffy.
                  I don’t know why OP’s boss keeps asking over and over why, why, why. She did not like the environment and she decided to change it single handedly.

              3. Katherine*

                Why should she make her best guess when it would have taken 5 seconds to say to any of her dozens of coworkers “Can we wear costumes on Halloween?”

            4. Jesmlet*

              Wear a suit everyday should not need a list of bullet points after it qualifying that yes this means even on Halloween, Easter, Christmas, non-existent casual Fridays, etc. If I tell someone what they have to do, I should not have to list all the inverses of that. They should just default to what I’ve told them to do.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            Yeah, this is at the level of “Why is there a page in the training manual telling us not to cover ourselves in post-it notes before client meetings?”

            “Crissy. Spout Attachments. ’15. It was ugly.”

        2. aebhel*

          I’m baffled that you think people need special training in order to realize that they shouldn’t mouth off to their boss in a disciplinary meeting. I come from a blue-collar background, and that is in no way acceptable in any workplace I’ve ever encountered.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This is a good point. Paying attention to the hierarchy, and not annoying the people who can fire you, is something you really expect from people who don’t come from much money. Whereas I expect the 22 year old who has lots of great ideas for how to reformulate the entire business model and is loudly complaining to all in earshot about why no one listens to their great ideas to be from a more sheltered and wealthy background.

            Now, the latter may also be entitled to a few gentle corrections about how “It’s common sense you would only hire me because you wanted to hear my industry revolutionizing ideas” is not common. But there is a real limit to how many gentle “no, we really want you to make these copies” their co-workers want to give. (Thinking of the “Man, my university didn’t tell me that I should be nice to people I perceive as low-ranking, lest they have connections to the high-ranking, they messed up” letter.)

              1. fposte*

                It was in the update to the “CEO’s wife ruined my job prospects” letter. I’m going to try to do the link in the name thing and see if it works–if my name is blue, try a click.

                1. aebhel*

                  Oh, wow. That’s… a pretty unique way of parsing that advice. I hope the LW there has done some serious thinking about his attitude.

    5. JamieS*

      I’m going to take a guess that her showing up to a meeting with the C-suite had a lot to do with her being fired especially considering they were seemingly pressuring the director over it. Normally I’d feel bad and put this down to a misunderstanding but in this case I have doubts. It doesn’t sound like the employee didn’t know she wasn’t supposed to dress up but that she did know and chose to ignore it. Also the fact she doubled down on her actions doesn’t endear me to her or make me think it was a mistake.

    6. Colette*

      Any client meeting I’ve ever been in would be seriously disrupted by someone asking for candy. That’s bizarre behaviour, even in workplaces where wearing a costume is ok.

      1. Pickles*

        Maybe asking for candy was a cover for “OMG, no one else is in costume, how do I play this off?” A bad idea, but when you’re in a ball gown anyway, you’re probably going to be noticed.

        1. One of the Sarahs*

          At the point where you get into work and realise you’re the only person in costume, and there’s an important meeting coming up, you run to your boss, apologise profusely, and go home to change, or develop a sudden onset health issue and get out of there!

          1. Bagpuss*

            This.
            It seems unlikely that she didn’t encounter any other staff members in the building, so even if she hadn’t realised in advance that costumes were unlikely to be appropriate, you’d think that she would have spotted that no-one else was dressed up. I wonder if anyone said anything to her while she was en route to the meeting.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          If you make a mistake at work, are mortified, and figure maybe you punt by setting the mistake on fire, then your instincts are far enough off that I can see firing as the solution.

          I mean, I’d put the odds at 50/50 that my husband, if in this meeting, wouldn’t notice the ball gown if you just didn’t draw attention to it.

        3. selina kyle*

          I agree with this – it sounds like a nervous jokey reaction. Maybe not the best judgement, but it makes sense to me on that level of trying to play it off. Of course, realizing it might not land should’ve/could’ve crossed her mind, but alas.

          1. Epsilon Delta*

            Right, if she was supposed to be in the meeting I guess I can see this as a panic reaction, but then she would have needed to act mortified when her boss talked to her about it, not flippant. Otherwise she is not conveying that she understands the severity of the problem. If she crashed the meeting, there is really no excuse. (I reread the letter and it wasn’t clear to me if she was supposed to be there or not)

            In either case, there was a whole series of spectacularly bad judgments and I can see why they fired her over it.

    7. Scarlet*

      Well, she was more than “seen” by clients, she went trick-or-treating in a meeting with important clients and executives! I used to work in an office that was really laid-back and where people were welcome to dress up for Halloween, but even there, someone interrupting a meeting with clients for “trick-or-treating” would have received a serious side-eye. They wouldn’t have been fired over it, but their judgement would definitely be questioned.

      If she had just come to work in costume and asked candy from colleagues, I would agree with you, but that’s not what happened. She embarrassed the whole firm in front of their clients, in a very formal work environment.

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Look, I’ve known my main client contact for well over 10 years, he’s been to my house and I’ve been to his, and about half of our company’s top management dresses up on Halloween. BUT NOT ALL DAY. We have a costume contest in the atrium of the building, and then people generally change back to their normal work clothes. (If they don’t have any client meetings, they might stay in costume to amuse their coworkers.) We would never attend a client meeting in costume…and we’re fairly laid back! If our client wanted to come to our costume party, great, but if we have a business meeting, you can bet we’ll be dressed appropriately.

    9. Noah*

      She INTERRUPTED A CLIENT MEETING to trick or treat. That’s gotta be what got her fired. Interrupting a client meeting at all is a big deal; in costume and trick or treating? Huge deal.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        “The building is on fire.”
        “One of you just got a call that your child/spouse is in ER.”

        Beyond that, I think you’re in toss-up territory and need to know the people you’re interrupting really well. Or be closely related to the CEO.

  12. kas*

    2. I hate bugs, including ladybugs, and I would be quite annoyed if this happened to me. I’d be so tempted to put a bottle of bug spray beside the plant to send him a message but I wouldn’t go that far. You may have scared him off by telling him you killed the ladybug. However, are these your own plants you/your coworkers brought in or your office’s plants? If they’re your own plants I would let him know that you were very serious about not having bugs in your plant and that he needs to put them elsewhere. If the plants belong to your office I don’t think you have much say. You can only voice your feelings about it like you’ve already done. I would not involve your boss though.

    1. Safetykats*

      Some people have terrible bug phobias, just like some people are afraid of heights or enclosed spaces. My daughter once was trapped in the house by a praying mantis on the screen door – seriously, she was too afraid to open the door. It makes no sense to me, but frankly the right reaction ia to try to understand – not to hide bugs in her room. Same for OP2’s coworker – it was really disrespectful.

      Also clueless, as ladybugs don’t die in the winter – they hibernate. The best thing to do would have been to put it back outside so it could have done that. A big part of the reason they hibernate is that there aren’t other insects for them to eat in colder months. Now that the poor thing is lost in an office too warm to hibernate, and with no good food or water supply, it probably will die.

      1. Emily*

        *raises hand* Bug phobia, here. Granted, I wouldn’t have huge issues with a ladybug, but I wouldn’t want it so close that it might land on me, either. And ladybugs fly like crazy! It’s very unlikely to just chill on that specific plant forever, and like you said, that’s hardly a real “rescue” location. (I remember once in elementary school, some kid brought a handful of ladybugs inside after recess and let them go, and they were flying all around the room for the whole class, landing on people, and creating a huge distraction.) Honestly, when she said she told the guy that she killed it as retaliation for him not respecting her wishes, I got some satisfaction out of that. I think she and I would be friends.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Really? I have a minor phobia of ladybirds after living with an infestation of ladybirds (I say minor because it doesn’t interfere much with my day to day life) but I still wouldn’t like someone telling me they killed a living creature for that reason. It’s a pretty strange and unkind thing to say to someone.

          1. BPT*

            Um it’s pretty strange and unkind for someone to intentionally put a bug in close proximity to the LW when she stated it made her uncomfortable. That’s the only misstep here.

              1. BPT*

                If the coworker really cared about saving the bug he would have put it outside. Putting it in an office plant means that he didn’t care enough to look up how to actually save the bug; it’s not the LW’s job to help him. Making an uninformed decision that makes your coworkers uncomfortable is a huge misstep.

                People kill bugs all the time. The LW warned him she would. The coworker pretty obviously did not care enough to 1) actually save the bug, or 2) care for it himself.

                1. fposte*

                  The misstep isn’t the LW’s failure to save the bug, as I said. It’s deliberately informing somebody who tried to save something that you killed it.

                  Somebody doing something unpleasant to you doesn’t mean the rules get suspended on what you do in response. See also: biting coworker.

                2. BPT*

                  So she was supposed to lie? Just because he tried to save it doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do. Her killing it is not a moral failing or an objectively “bad thing.” Yes opinions are split, but in many people’s eyes killing it is the “right thing” to do. The biting coworker was a completely different case because you NEVER bite someone, unless you are actively in danger and that’s the only way out of it. The same is not true for killing bugs – it’s not a rule that you never kill bugs.

                  And again, there would be a completely different reaction if this were a roach or bedbug or fly or anything like that.

                3. fposte*

                  @BPT–well, she did lie, so lying can’t be that much of an obstacle.

                  But you keep focusing on what she did to the bug, and I keep saying it’s it doesn’t matter what she did to the bug. It’s about being deliberately unkind to a co-worker. If you didn’t kill the bug, don’t claim that you did to the person who’d be wounded by that. If you did kill the bug, don’t off your own bat and unasked tell the person who’d be wounded by that fact that that’s what you did.

                  Put it another way–you don’t need to keep vegan just because you’ve got a colleague who’s vegan for animal rights reasons, but even if he’s a proselytizer you don’t spontaneously announce to him that you ate veal for lunch, either. It’s still crummy, even if you’re doing it to somebody who wasn’t behaving well.

                4. BPT*

                  Whoops – misread her comment and thought she actually killed it. So in that case, I wouldn’t agree that she should have said she killed it.

                  But honestly, it someone said they were going to put a bug near me I would unequivocally tell them I’m going to kill it, no questions asked. I don’t care if it makes them feel bad or sad – there’s a way around that, and that’s specifically not putting the bug near me.

                5. Not So NewReader*

                  I kind of question whether he was actually wanting to save the bug. If he was truly interested in the bug’s well being he would have at least asked her if she was serious or not, to see if he was reading the situation correctly.
                  He had no interest in helping that bug and I base that on the fact that she said no and he set it down near her anyway. Why would you put a being that you want to protect next to a person who has no interest in protecting it?
                  Between this disconnect and the way that OP said the conversation went I wondered if the guy was trying to hit on OP. The guy’s care plan for the bug is poorly conceived and badly executed. Do not give this guy your dog to rehome. He can’t handle rehoming a bug properly.

        2. Fergus, Stealer of Pens and Microwaver of Fish*

          Most bugs don’t bother me, but I am ***terrified*** of spiders. When I was in junior high, our science teacher brought in a couple of those yellow garden spiders and let them live in the classroom, where one (of course!) set up shop right next to my assigned desk. I basically sat there frozen for half the semester until PTA night when my mom (who is even more terrified of them than me) saw it, freaked the f&*( out, and that was the end of that.

          Not cool!

      2. JamieS*

        Given OP sought out the lady bug to kill it this doesn’t sound like a phobia but a dislike. Regardless I don’t think this excuses the OP’s actions. Plenty of people dislike dogs but if someone brought in a puppy from the cold and left him by a co-workers desk no decent person is going to tell the co-worker they killed the puppy.

        Not that I think ladybugs and puppies are on the same level (not looking to get into that debate) but I think thinking of OP’s actions through that lens helps show the callousness.

        1. Dinosaur*

          Uh, no. Killing bugs that are indoors isn’t callous. It’s been common knowledge in my life that bugs that are inside may get killed and anyone wanting to save bugs from that fate should put them outside. Coworker decided to purposely put a bug near OP’s office after being told not to. He should have known that the bug getting killed was a possibility and honestly doesn’t have a right to be publicly upset or make a big deal about it without looking insanely unreasonable.

          1. JamieS*

            You clearly flew right over my point. OP’s coworker clearly cared about the well being of this ladybug (similar to how most people would care about the well being of a puppy hence the comparison) so OP telling him they killed it is callous.

            Also right or wrong ladybugs tend to get different classification compared to other bugs when it comes to how acceptable it is to intentionally kill.

            1. MsMorlowe*

              Except for how a puppy is not like a ladybird.

              Maybe a more equivalent example would be if the coworker had said they were going to give the LW a puppy as a pet, and the LW repeatedly said please don’t, I don’t like dogs and don’t want a pet; I will give the puppy away if you give me a puppy–and then gave the puppy to a shelter if the coworker gave them a dog anyway. The coworker doesn’t get to be upset if he the thing he was warned in advance would happen then happens.

              1. JamieS*

                Again I’m not saying they are on the same level. I don’t think they are and don’t really care OP wanted to kill it. I was drawing a parallel between something the co-worker cared about and something most people (least in my culture) would care about to make it obvious why OP’s actions were unwarranted. I was comparing a person’s investment in a critter not the critters themselves. You can replace “puppy” with whatever critter you personally care about.

                Based on the conversation OP provided it was pretty obvious the co-worker didn’t believe the OP like Alison suggested. Regardless saying you rehomed a critter (even to a shelter) and saying you killed it are two different things.

              2. fposte*

                It’s not about the killing of the bug–kill the thing, don’t kill the thing, I don’t care. It’s about deliberately being unkind to the person who wanted to save the thing by telling them you killed it (especially when you didn’t). I think this got a little boundary wars-ish to the OP and she wanted to use weaponry that would have an impact, but she overpowered the situation.

        2. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

          This is such a ridiculous comment I can’t even. If the ladybug is your beloved pet, then I won’t kill it. Free range ladybugs are not comparable to a dog or even a pet tarantula (gross but presumably not abandoned to live it’s life out next to my desk).

          1. JamieS*

            I’m going to try to put this as nicely as possible. From your coworker’s POV your actions were incredibly callous. Telling your coworker, who apparently had some sort of emotional investment in this lady bug’s well-being, you killed the bug was cold hearted and cruel.

            1. Myrin*

              It was, but honestly, this guy sounds like a huge, boundary-pushing-and-ignoring, rude pain in the butt. I’m not one to kill bugs in general, it has never in my life occurred to me to kill a ladybird, and I’m not one for deliberately using cruel and hurtful language, but if I’m very honest with myself, seeing how the conversation between OP and Coworker went – as OP relayed in anothere comment – I’m not sure I wouldn’t have said the same thing in this particular situation because that guy is just that brazenly obnoxious.

                1. Morning Glory*

                  I have taken an extra effort to save ‘cute’ bugs before. I have never been very emotionally invested in it. If someone told me they’d deliberately killed a bug I’d tried to save, I would be angry.

                  Comparing that to killing one of my pets though, is on a completely different scale, and taking your analogy that far is likely to make the LW dismiss the other, more reasonable advice from other commenters.

            2. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

              He can’t say he wasn’t warned. He chose to ignore the warning. Is it then callous to confirm that said warning was carried out?

              2. Ashley*

                Exactly. I think it was callous of him to leave his beloved bug in a life-threatening environment.

            3. Rusty Shackelford*

              The OP also had an emotional investment in her own well-being, which included not depositing the ladybug near her. Why does the coworker’s emotional investment win? Particularly since, in his ignorance, he likely caused the bug’s death himself?

            4. Gingerblue*

              I think the coworker mostly had an emotional investment in pushing the LW’s buttons, and her response was perfectly judged.

          2. DontWantNoBugs*

            Ladybug-Hatin LW, I just want you to know that I understand your position and do not understand the amount of people who are defending someone who purposefully pushed your boundaries after they were told not to, even if his motives were supposedly pure. I, for one, do not think you are a callous monster for trying to discourage him from stomping your boundaries in the future, especially since what he was doing was not at all reasonable or even helpful to the bug.

            1. Ladybug Hatin' LW*

              Aw, thanks! I appreciate it. Like, I probably could have handled it better but in the moment I just wanted to drive home the point of DON’T EFFING PUT BUGS NEAR MY EFFING SPACE DUDE. It seems to have blown over without incident, though, and no one here is side-eyeing me as a horrible monster.

                1. a1*

                  Me, too.

                  1) LW didn’t actually kill the bug, and 2) It’s just a bug! People kill bugs all the time every day. I am so surprised so many think saying you killed a bug is much more egregious than then whack-a-doo coworker moving a bug a couple floors and putting it where someone requested not to. Heck, just the moving the bug seems very odd to me. Who does that? In an office? Leave it be, kill it, or if you must move it then bring it outside. The coworker’s behavior is what seems so odd to me. The LW’s behavior didn’t even make me bat an eye. Also, Coworker was being unkind to her, not the other way around.

                  As a side note, if you drive a car, take a train or bus or cab or any number of transportation options, you kill hundreds and thousands of bugs every year when they hit your windshield, hood, grill, etc. Yes, that includes ladybugs and butterflies. Also, bugs get stepped on, even accidentally, all the time, too. Really, it’s just a bug.

          3. Plague of frogs*

            The “pets have more value than other animals” belief is so common that I can’t fault you for it. However, believing that my pet is valuable because I love it is incredibly self-centered. Love is recognition of the value my pet intrinsically has.

            Anyway, your coworker is a huge tool, you got back at him, and the lady bug lives on, so perhaps this is the best possible outcome.

          4. Not So NewReader*

            LW, I mentioned above, if he was truly interested in the well being of the bug he would have found someone who had a similar level of interest, he would not have left it with you out of sheer concern for the well-being of the bug.

            I don’t think for one minute you are a puppy killer. This is not about puppies. The comparison does not work out well because as a whole, society puts a much higher value on puppies than it does on bugs. That is just in general terms. Someone screams there is a puppy on her desk, five people will come to grab the pup. Someone screams there is a spider on her desk, five people will come to kill the spider.
            Bugs are not given a high value by society as a whole.

        3. lokilaufeysanon*

          That is a horrible analogy and it’s comparing apples to oranges (and you know it). If the coworker wanted to ~save a bug~ so badly, he should have kept it near HIS desk or brought it outside. He was asked not do it and he did it anyway. The coworker is a massive jerk for doing that (and he went out of his way to do it, too).

          1. JamieS*

            It’s not a horrible analogy if you actually understood the point of it which wasn’t “bugs and puppies are the same thing”. Assuming the coworker is a lady bug layman putting the bug in a plant makes much more sense if he wanted to save it than on the floor by his desk. Unless it’s OP’s plant, OP has no more right than anyone else to decide what goes in it. Regardless my comment wasn’t in reference to OP wanting to kill the bug it was in reference to telling the co-worker.

            1. JeanB in NC*

              So if someone wants to put a spider in a plant that belongs to the company, the person sitting next to the plant with a spider phobia gets no say in it?

            2. Bagpuss*

              I think if the coworker was emotionally invested in saving the bug, or cared about the bug, he would not have deliberately placed in somewhere where he had been explicitly told t was unwelcome and would be killed. Even if he didn’t believe that OP would kill the bug, if he was concerned for the bug’s welfare he would not take that risk.

              To me it reads more as if e’s the kind of person, who, as a kid, would think it funny to pick up a spider and chase the girls who were scared of spiders with it. He may have cared about the bug, but clearly he didn’t care very much, and either way it wasn’t appropriate for him to ignore the clearly stated wishes of his coworker. Whether or not his initial motive in picking up the bug were good , he behaved like a jerk to OP.

        4. Female*

          I completely agree with you. Regardless of whether it was insect or mammal, LW should not be deliberately going out of her way to give herself a reputation at the office of someone who kills animals that other people try to save (and animals that many if not most people at her office will feel sympathetic to). The issue is not just how this coworker perceives her, but how the rest of the office will when they hear that “he put a ladybug in that plant, then LW killed it.”

          1. MsMorlowe*

            I’m really struggling to see how others would respond to that with anything other than “Okay.” Killing any sort of a bug is just not a big deal for me, and I really can’t imagine an entire office–short of, maybe, a vet’s–where people would think you a cold-hearted monster for squishing a ladybird.

            Clearly there are more people who are against killing insects than I thought, but I’m still struggling to see how this could become an office-wide controversy.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I agree, I would think, “Okay, that’s done. Let’s move on.”
              If I were his boss I would let him know that it’s not okay to bring bugs into the building because building codes, health codes, etc.

            2. Doe-Eyed*

              Eh, I’m a huge animal lover, and if I found out that a coworker killed a ladybug to prove a point (according to her lie) I’d think they were a pretty crummy person. I mean I’d still be professional and I wouldn’t go out of my way to bring it up or talk about it, but in my head they’d always be the jerk that kills ladybugs.

              1. MsMorlowe*

                I think I see where you’re coming from, and I’d agree that bug-killing has different meanings under different circumstances. Like, if A said “Look at this cute little spider!” and B reached out and squished it while laughing, yes, I would think there is something wrong with B.

                BUT if the conversation actually went
                A: Look at this cute spider!
                B: Oh no, I hate spiders
                A: I’m going to put it next to your desk
                B: Please don’t, I really hate insects
                A: Nah, I’m going to leave it here
                B: I will kill it if you do that–I really hate bugs
                A: Okay, I’m putting the spider down next to your desk. See you later!

                And then B later tells A they killed the spider? That is completely different, and I don’t think it’s solely to prove a point, but primarily to discourage the coworker from giving her bugs!

                1. Doe-Eyed*

                  From reading the original it doesn’t look like she told him that she’d kill it, just that she didn’t want it there. I’ve seen enough bantering of that fashion with other things to see how the coworker could think she wasn’t that seriously freaked out (just annoyed). Still wrong to do in spite of the LW’s annoyance.

                  I’d even have more sympathy if she’d killed a spider, because they do bite people and can cause serious problems if they do, whereas ladybugs are primarily just creepy crawly and typically don’t bite or otherwise harm people.

                  I guess in the grand scheme of things, my point is, how much is this micro-socialization worth to prove a point? I wouldn’t ostracize this coworker, but if they had a typo on their powerpoint I’d probably remember how much they value people not invading their space, if you get my drift.

        5. Falling Diphthong*

          This analogy is making me think of the days of Tamagachi, and trying to get your parents to look after the electronic pet because you were busy doing stuff and they obviously weren’t and only cruel people turn the pet off.

          Don’t show up by my desk, say “Hi, I rescued a puppy! Well, I’m off, have fun taking care of it; I’ll visit in a few days” and expect the puppy to be there next week.

      3. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

        I did not know that, so if there is ever a next time I will tell him the ladybug facts!

        1. Myrin*

          I wouldn’t have thought of that but it actually sounds like a really good idea! Then he can be the “monster” for a change…

      4. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

        One of those giant garden slugs was on the door frame at work. I went around to the other door and climbed over a counter to avoid any encounter with it.
        Lady bugs are a plague here. They come into the house and are almost impossible to eradicate. I’d kill any that I found at work in case they hitchhiked home with me. There’s nothing like waking up and being covered in them.

      6. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I had a praying mantis on my living room wall the other day, and I went and picked up my daughter and cooked her a steak dinner for removing it from the house while I hid in the bathroom. I put ladybugs in the category of “cute” (or pretty) bugs along with butterflies, and I did have an eyebrows-up, jaw-dropped reaction to someone killing a ladybug when I first read that.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          I had to quit typing on my mobile and drive to work. I meant to add that, since I’ve always thought of ladybugs as in the “cute and/or pretty” category, it never occurred to me that someone might have the same reaction as to a “real” (creepy, crawly, “ugly”) bug.

          The coworker was still wrong to foist an unwanted bug on someone who was explicitly telling him not to. Just because he thinks something is harmless doesn’t mean that someone else wants it around them.

      7. Vegan Atheist Weirdo*

        I sort of got the impression that he found it already inside his office somewhere, and thought he was helping it by putting it on a plant instead of leaving it in his own plant-less space.

        That said, I’m not sure what the “rescuer” was thinking. My first reaction with random insect visitors is to take them outside, not move them elsewhere inside. And why put the bug there after LW already told him it was NOT okay? Guy was definitely the one in the wrong.

  13. Susan K*

    #4 – I hate to disagree with Alison, but I think you should reapply, even if it has only been a couple of months (assuming you didn’t get an actual rejection). I say this because I have worked for two large (Fortune 500) companies with very rigid hiring policies, including a rule that if interviews are not completed within a certain time of the job posting closing, the process must be restarted from the beginning. It seems stupid, but I guess the thinking is that if they wait too long, the best candidates will no longer be available, so they want to start with a fresh applicant pool.

    At both companies, I have seen this happen in my department — we posted a job and got a bunch of applicants, but the hiring manager missed the deadline for interviews and had to repost the job — and the manager was disappointed that the good candidates from the first posting didn’t reapply. One of them had the good sense to reach out (heh) to the good candidates and ask them to reapply, but the other just assumed that the candidates were no longer interested if they didn’t reapply. Meanwhile, I bet at least some of the candidates didn’t reapply because they assumed the company wasn’t interested in them since they didn’t get an interview the first time around. What a pity, right?

    I’m not sure about the cover letter. If this was the situation I described, I don’t think it would hurt to use the same cover letter, because it’s not necessarily true that it didn’t work the first time. On the other hand, you don’t really know what the situation was, so maybe you would benefit from a new cover letter. Hard to say.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I say go for it! I reapplied when a job I wanted was reposted after a few months. I never heard back the first time, and I’m up to the in-person interview stage (after two phone screens) based on the second application. The online application didn’t call for a cover letter, but I did update and improve my resume quite a bit the second time to really highlight my qualifications based on the job description. If I’d done a cover letter, I would have changed it accordingly for the second time, both to make it different from the first and to better tailor it (my first few resumes/cover letters were pretty bland, they got better from the multiple iterations I did for other positions).

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      I agree. I can only look at candidates in my candidate pool for *that* position. Anyone interested in an opening needs to apply for that specific opening when it is posted. And there can be large variations in my candidate pool, so I absolutely think it’s worth applying again.

      I’m not as sure about the letter. I would make sure that all your dates are updated and the position is listed correctly; I do tend to disregard what is clearly a letter used before that has a date from 3 months ago on it.

      Good luck!

      1. Op #4*

        #4 OP here. Thanks all! I applied originally in February so it’s been over 6 months. I’m gonna go for it and edit my cover letter with tips from Allison, since I hadn’t discovered askamanger yet the first time :)

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Yeah, ever since I’ve been on the hiring side it’s changed my perspective. My employer’s hiring system/software is a mess, everyone hires differently (i.e. not everyone marks everyone yes or no in the system), etc. So some candidates DO slip through the cracks on occasion.

    4. a Gen X manager*

      Oh, please, no! I am SO tired of re-applicants. Save both their and my time please!! We reviewed it and passed.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        I’m intrigued by this! In previous jobs, I would have said the same thing you did… that we evaluated you, didn’t pick you up, don’t waste my time. But those were small employers (under 50 ppl). Now I work for a company with around 800 full time employees, and we’re growing a lot, and now i always tell applicants to make sure they apply to each job they’re interested in, individually, because there are so many processes and so many hiring managers and so many departments that info-sharing about candidates between silos is just too difficult. It would be great if we could do it! But right now, that’s not a priority.

        Heck, the job I’m in was the 3rd or 4th job at this company that I applied to. We’ve hired several people who applied for 5 or 6 jobs at various places in the company before we hired them. And in OP’s case, there’s not even evidence that the company made a hire. Since OP never heard anything, it’s honestly possible that they put up the requisition, didn’t even look at the pool, and then had to close the posting for some reason. It does happen!

      2. CityMouse*

        On the other hand I am doing interviews this week and I am seeing some people who interviewed before. We can like people but not have enough slots. In the past on multiple occasions, my org has hired someone on a subsequent try.

    5. KDW*

      Likewise–we currently have a position open where I work. Last time we filled it, we liked both top candidates but could only choose one. The one we chose left after juuuuust long enough that we have to re-open the search due to company policy, and I hope that other top candidate applies again! I’ve also seen other people apply repeatedly for a job and end up getting it later when the pool happened to work out for them. Go for it, #4! Though I’d keep expectations at a level that lines up with the point in the process you got to before. Note that both examples I have here were well-qualified, just weren’t lucky in the particular applicant pool they were in. I also see people apply over and over who aren’t qualified and I wish I could tell them to save their time (or get the experience required).

    6. Artemesia*

      I don’t understand why they couldn’t use the applications from the first pool and just add the new ones in. And this is actually a case where ‘reaching out’ is the correct term I think.

    7. Katherine*

      I agree, I was surprised that Alison concluded that LW was rejected from the job. Stuff *does* happen- sometimes you apply to a job that’s been filled but the posting hasn’t been taken down, sometimes a company decides not to fill the job after all. And yeah, sometimes those are just things you tell yourself to feel better ;-) But not always! The LW may not have been evaluated as a candidate at all. And especially in this case- why would the job be posted again so soon? Sounds to me like there’s a good chance it wasn’t filled the first time!

  14. Dre*

    The costume one does seem extreme. Was there an additional detail, such as did the costume include blackface or was it revealing in some way?

      1. The Crusher*

        I read the mention of shows as an illustration of the office’s standard, not necessarily as a specific rule Tiana had violated.

    2. Sarah*

      She went into a C-suite level CLIENT meeting at a business formal firm in a halloween costume and asked for candy. How is firing someone who so clearly hasn’t cottoned on to your firm’s basic culture in 150 days extreme?

      I’m pretty sure my firm would fire someone for this.

      1. babblemouth*

        I work in a very relaxed office, and I can’t picture anyone doing this and not getting a very very serious reprimand and a mark in their personal file. I’m really not surprised that it wouldn’t be ok in finance and lead to a firing. If it had been contained “in the family” (as in, just the close coworkers) it could have stayed at the reprimand, but doing this in front of clients and senior management? Yes, the firing makes sense.

        2. Anononon*

          Yes, same. I work in a very relaxed law firm (sneakers. T-shirt’s, jeans, hoodies are common for staff) and we have a costume contest every year. However, if someone did this during a client meeting, it would have been bad.

      2. Czhorat*

        Agreed.

        My last office had casual Fridays. When I interviewed, the guy whose name is on the letterhead conducted my second interview wearing jeans. It was fairly laid back. That said, if you had a client meeting on Friday you wore a jacket and tie.

        In other words, even of it’s ok to wear your Halloween costume to the office, it isn’t ok to wear it to an executive-level client meeting.

    3. Free Meerkats*

      Every manager I’ve known in Finance (note the capital F) is a humorless drone with a huge broomstick up their bum. I can totally see someone being fired for this.

      I’m not saying it’s right, but costume wearer wasn’t right either.

      But that’s not the LW’s problem right now, her problem is with her director who can’t accept an “I don’t know” answer. My response would escalate to “I still don’t know”, “Still haven’t an idea”, “Why do you think I would know?”, “WTF do you want me to say?!?!” I can’t stand people who won’t accept “I don’t know” as a valid answer to a question.

      And reprinting the manual for a one-time occurrence is a total waste of company resources.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        When people don’t accept “I don’t know” it’s generally because you’re answering the question they asked and not the real question behind it.

        1. KnittyInABrowncoat*

          Exactly! I go through this with my youngest all. the. time. I’ve learned to read him to figure out what he’s actually asking (he’s autistic so this can be an interesting challenge.)
          In this case is say the actual question is more like, “Why didn’t you know she wasn’t understanding our culture?” or “Why didn’t you take it extra super duper clear to your reports that this sort of thing was absolutely unexceptable?”

        2. Czhorat*

          That’s the best response to this, and it informs the best response.

          Perhaps, ” she clearly didn’t know what it’s expected in a high level client meeting of this sort. I’ll need to make sure this is communicated more clearly to future new hires without a background in the industry”.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            +1000

            Defines a problem and provides an action, and one that the director can take up her mgmt chain. The director’s getting asked about this, and how to make it not happen again (in front of *clients*, yeah, that’s huge), and needs action items.

        3. Free Meerkats*

          Well, then ask the question you want an answer to!

          If you ask me why the sky is blue when what you really want to know is when it’s going to rain, I’m going to talk about scattering and refraction, not the weather forecast. Figuring out what you want isn’t my job unless you have an issue like KnittyInABrowncoat lays out below with her youngest.

          When I ask a question, I’m asking what I want to know. And if you don’t know, don’t dance and try to give me the answer you think I want to hear, just say you don’t know; I’m good with that.

      2. Scarlet*

        I agree. The director relentlessly going on about it even though employee was fired and there’s truly nothing else anyone can do is just bizarre.
        500% agree on people who cannot accept “I don’t know” as an answer

        1. Jesmlet*

          Halloween was just 1 full business day ago so I don’t know if we’ve crossed into relentless yet, and maybe the director is just saying it in a rhetorical way? That question doesn’t necessarily demand an answer. “What was she thinking?!” is not the same as “Tell me what you think her thought process was going into that.”

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Heck, I’ve had plenty of managers in Finance who aren’t humorless drones and I could still totally see firing someone for this.

        At the end of the day, client impression is hugely important because we’re taking responsibility for their financial security, and that’s something that people (rightly) take very, very seriously. Bringing her bad judgment in front of major clients was the orbitally fired anvil that not only broke the camel’s back but destroyed the entire camel and a large portion of the desert around it.

    4. Observer*

      Well, it was a Disney Princess costume, so by definition totally not “Business formal”, and probably showing more skin than the dress code allows, too.

      But, she also went into a meeting with the C-suite and important clients and ASKED THEM FOR CANDY. What more is there to say?

  15. Artemesia*

    Bugs. People think ladybugs are benign and wonderful but there are actually lots of different types and some are vermin in buildings (I remember an office with hundreds of these things swarming in. Some ladybug appearing bugs bite (me as recently as this October at a pumpkin farm). IN any case if someone tells you they don’t want bugs put in plants next to their desk — don’t put bugs in their plants.

    ‘Reaching out’. To me there is a nuance of meaning difference between ‘reach out’ and ‘contact’. Reach out has a whiff of including someone who might have been neglected. Just as ‘utilize’ is slightly different from ‘use’. Utilize implies making efficient use of resources already on hand not just using resources. Or so it always seemed to me.

  16. Antti*

    As someone in his 20s, “reach out” kind of bugs me too. I think I differ from others here though, because I think it sounds like a more formal register than just “talk to” or “call” or even “contact”. (Then again, this could be because while I was in the call center part of my company, the guy who sat across from me had a habit of saying things like “I need to reach out to underwriting” on the phone all. day. long. And I had his standard “I need to put you on hold” phrase memorized because I heard it so much. Nice guy, but his stock phrases/phone manner were always really weirdly restrained/way more formal than he normally talks.)

    That said, it’s not something I’d correct in anyone else, under normal circumstances. There’s really nothing wrong with it. If it’s a context where good writing is really important, I could see advising people not to use it multiple times in succession, of course, but otherwise I don’t think it really matters.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m in my late 30s and I hate it because it sounds so patronising. Don’t thank me for ‘reaching out’ like I’m doing you a favour when I actually asked you a question because I need something from you!

      2. Colette*

        I’ve never used it for someone who contacted me, only the other way around. I agree it has different connotations in that scenario.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I’ve had many people thank me for reaching out. Usually customer service. It basically makes me want to reach out and strangle them.

      2. SKA*

        Oh yeah! I mean, I don’t want anyone to have their office bugged without their knowledge, but if it had happened, I certainly would want to read about it!

  18. Ann O.*

    I’m usually anti-dress code issues, but firing seemed appropriate to me. It wasn’t just that she dressed up; it wasn’t even just that she behaved inappropriately in an important meeting; it was that when called on it, she didn’t show any awareness of why what she’d done was inappropriate. Although embarrassing the director at that high of a level probably would be enough for a firing, whether that’s objectively right or not.

    3. Augusta Sugarbean*

      That makes sense. She wasn’t fired by the OP but by someone else. She certainly didn’t get the message when the OP talked to her. It seems entirely possible that when the firing manager met with her (contacted her? reached out to her?) that she doubled down and got fired for it.

    4. Tiny Soprano*

      Also the part that got me was that she didn’t ask first. I mean, my office is business casual and I still asked before assuming I could wear jeans on Casual Friday (simply because I’m in a client-facing spot and it wasn’t my hill to die on). Full-on trick or treating at a business formal job in a client meeting with execs of all things… it just seems like a huge risk to dive into without even doing a bit of probing first. THAT’s where I see the judgement failure. Not so much that she did it, but she did it without even floating the idea in private with a coworker first.

      1. misspiggy*

        That makes me think it might be worth OP discreetly probing her other reports, to check whether they encouraged her. Who knows whether someone maliciously said, ‘Great idea!’?

    5. AcademiaNut*

      Yeah, I see it as an escalating series of offences.

      Level 1 – showing up in full Hallowe’en costume at a conservative big F Financial company. For a new, inexperienced employee, sending them home to change and a stern talking to is sufficient.

      Level 2 – doing so at an important meeting with C-level executives and major *clients*. That might warrant firing by itself if the clients were mad enough – then they can tell them it was a new employee who has been fired for their behaviour. Or, if the employee had shown prior signs of poor judgement, it might be the final straw for letting them go.

      Level 3 – when called on it, doubling down and insisting that they didn’t do anything wrong, and that the employer is wrong for being upset because they’re too stuffy. That’s what pushes it into definite firing territory to me. If she had apologized, admitted she had screwed up and promised to be better it might be salvageable. The fact that she doesn’t see what she did wrong means that it’s only a matter of time before she does something equally daft in front of clients.

    6. Violet Fox*

      This sounds like the type of place where she *maybe* could have gotten away with a pair of small, tasteful Halloween themed earrings, or a tastefully printed scarf or similar. At most, and nothing at all that would call attention to itself.

    7. mimsie*

      She’s got terrible judgement but certainly major cajones to saunter into a CLIENT meeting with the C-SUITE (also she’s 5 months into her career, I find it really weird she was even invited to this meeting in the first place??). And then to actually talk to people to ask for candy? Wow. I would have been mortified as soon as I arrived at work and saw no one was dressed up not even cat ears, then bolted home and make up an excuse about pipes leaking that made me late. I certainly wouldn’t have actually continued on my day!

      This whole story is so weird, perhaps she was actually possessed. On that note, maybe the whole office was possessed. Why didn’t anyone say anything to her before she even stepped into the meeting room?

      I don’t think it’s an overreaction to fire her. She didn’t just “show up to work in a costume”. She caused major disruption and embarrassment to the company and showed no remore or comprehension of her actions.

      1. Myrin*

        Just because you were wondering about it: as far as I can see, it doesn’t actually say anywhere that she was invited to that particular meeting. It sounds to me like she just, well, showed up there in full regalia.

      2. Lilo*

        If you are a low level person in a higher meeting and not there for a specific reason (not told to present), you usually are not supposed to talk unsolicited or draw attention to yourself.

      3. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I don’t think she was invited; it might be that assumption on my part that makes me wonder why people are going so easy on her! “We had a meeting scheduled…” in the OP’s letter didn’t read to me that the employee was invited but that the OP and her director had a meeting. That’s what adds more cringe to the whole thing for me!

        Of course, it’s very possible that she was invited, but at that point in my career (and in several jobs at the beginning), my role was to sit back in a meeting and observe, maybe participate if asked directly, not to make a show of myself. So this is a big, big deal.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yes, it’s another reading-of-the-circumstances thing. If you expect no outside clients or senior visitors in the office next Thursday, a bit of mild wackiness might be okay. But you don’t plan it for when you know the office is going to be outward facing.

          Context. Most behavior you can think of is alright in the some context. That doesn’t make it alright in all contexts. (Recall reading that a certain type of monkey, raised in isolation and then introduced to a troop, will have hardwired behaviors, like dominance and submission, but will be completely clueless as to when to pull out which set of responses. Like, “Yeah, that’s okay with Bobo, but an absolutely terrible idea–near suicidal–with Moppet.”)

      4. mimsie*

        OMG if she wasn’t even invited and she just barged in? So much worse! Of course that’s asking for a sacking!

      5. CM*

        So a bunch of people have commented about how she’s new to the firm / workplace and maybe she just doesn’t understand company culture so the firing was too harsh. But I think this is undeniable, from mimsie’s comment above: “She’s got terrible judgement but certainly major cajones to saunter into a CLIENT meeting with the C-SUITE.”

        Is it plausible that somebody hired at a financial firm really wouldn’t understand the concept of hierarchy, to the point of not understanding that you don’t barge into a meeting with clients and the C-suite and act in a very unexpected way? There have been a number of discussions here about class issues and the idea of “professionalism” as being a class marker that excludes people who aren’t familiar with these cultural norms. To me, this incident screams poor judgment and lack of common sense (the trick or treating in the conference room, not the dressing up on its own). But this discussion is making me wonder, what’s the line between common sense and a cultural understanding of white-collar professionalism?

        1. Susanne*

          “There have been a number of discussions here about class issues and the idea of “professionalism” as being a class marker that excludes people who aren’t familiar with these cultural norms. To me, this incident screams poor judgment and lack of common sense (the trick or treating in the conference room, not the dressing up on its own). But this discussion is making me wonder, what’s the line between common sense and a cultural understanding of white-collar professionalism?”

          Great question. I think there’s very little line. After all, the blue-collar guy on the factory floor knows enough not to barge in to the floor manager’s office when the door is closed and he’s got other mucky-mucks in there. We don’t go “oh, the poor guy is blue collar, he simply doesn’t **understand** the white-collar norm that you don’t go barging in on meetings you’re not invited to.”

          But some people seem very vested in pretending that there is some white-collar world with all of these unspoken norms that you just can’t get unless you were raised in it, and you possibly can’t expect someone not raised in that environment to get it without explicit instruction as to what they can and cannot do, as though they were feral animals who need to be taught how to speak to people. It’s so insulting.

          1. Kate 2*

            It’s one of those things that makes me very uncomfortable. I said this above, my parents growing up had blue-collar jobs, no one in my family graduated from college. I still knew enough not to act this way, to navigate white-collar norms. They really aren’t that different from the norms at a blue-collar job. Honestly all you need is a little common sense and awareness. You wouldn’t show up at the factory inappropriately dressed for work anymore than you would at an office, whether the job is assembly or meeting clients.

            It upsets me too, how blue-collar people are discussed. It reminds me a little of the people who excuse theft (not of food) with “well they’re pooooor”. And I grew up in a pretty darn poor area, like kids at school have black teeth for lack of money/knowledge, free lunches for lots of kids, clothes not even from Walmart or thrift stores, but from charities, and we had a super low crime rate. Poverty is NO excuse for stealing, and for people to turn it into one says a lot about how they see poor people.

          2. Tuxedo Cat*

            I was raised blue collar, as were many folks I know, and I would be surprised if any of us barged into a meeting uninvited, let alone in costume. I would like to think that any of us would also figure out pretty quickly we were in the wrong when we were kicked out of the meeting or when our manager asked us why we were in costume.

            When I think of blue collar and white collar differences in the workplace, I think about how people begin and end emails. How people might address disagreements. In those contexts, I’ve noticed we tend to figure it out quickly and feel some level of embarrassment.

          3. Not So NewReader*

            Eh, when the boss says you made a mistake you don’t sit there and say “No, I didn’t”.
            I think that was the last straw right there.
            We have no way to know but the situation might have been salvageable if she had just said, “Oh, I am so very sorry, I will leave and change right now [or similar thing].”

  19. Anon16*

    For some reason, I can’t stop laughing at the first letter. I can sort of understand why she was fired, it seems really out of sync with that firm’s culture and she embarrassed c- level executives in front of important clients.

    1. Sylvan*

      Same. You don’t dress up and ask for candy at work…? I don’t know what I would do if I were a manager and an employee did that. I’m glad I’m not a manager.

      1. (Different) Rebecca*

        I dressed up and gave out candy at work, but I’m an anthropology prof; we’re supposed to be a bit unconventional.

        1. Decima Dewey*

          Whereas in finance, accounting, etc., conventional is the default. If you want to have a zany sense of humor, wear hip clothing, or do cosplay, you do it on your own time.

  20. BePositive*

    Oh my goodness. My company is extremely relaxed and encourages dressing up for Halloween. However if one of us waltzed in a hugh client meeting like that which happened to be on the same day even my company would be appalled. Would we fired? I don’t think so but there a time and place for anything in an office

  21. Amy*

    #2: I don’t even mind ladybugs, but I would be very annoyed if someone tried to move one into my workspace. Having something flying around as you’re trying to focus is really distracting even if you’re generally fine with that thing existing. Most workplaces aren’t appropriate spaces for critters of any kind.

    I think the coworker was really rude here, especially considering OP2 specifically requested that he NOT leave it there. It’s not about rescuing bugs (on the contrary, I think it’s kind of him to help stranded critters, as long as he is going to find an appropriate space for them rather than just move them from one inappropriate space to another). It’s about having baseline respect for your coworkers and their work space.

    1. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

      That is my vibe as well, although I won’t say anything more about it. I just know it’s going to end up dead in my coffee soon.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Yeah, I think it was just weird and bad judgement on his part and OP didn’t know how to react in their followup conversation and ended up saying something unkind to get her point across (I killed the bug!).

      I probably wouldn’t have realized it was such a big deal either – though the many many comments here are making me see it a big deal is to some people! Which is fine, now I know to keep my bug-related emotions to myself at work :)

  22. Ramona Flowers*

    #1 Everyone is understandably focusing on the employee and her lack of judgement, but that isn’t actually the letter writer’s problem right now, the more I think about it.

    The current problem is that someone senior cannot let go of the situation and is doing things like repeatedly asking what Princess Tiana was thinking and wanting to reprint manuals. It’s like they’re looking for closure, in a very demanding way.

    I wonder if it would help to empathise with how said higher-up is feeling – use Alison’s script but preface with a line saying something like: “I understand that this was really frustrating and you’re left wondering how it happened.”

    When she asks what Tiana was thinking, she doesn’t really expect a new or different answer. What she’s really saying is: “I’m really frustrated and annoyed and I don’t have closure!” So after you’ve used this script once, if she brings it up again you can say: “I know, it’s really frustrating wondering what she was thinking.” Just reflect back. You’re telling the director they’ve Been Heard. That may be more helpful than telling them you don’t know what she was thinking.

    2. Dot Warner*

      This is a really good point. OP, maybe you can just reiterate to the director one more time that: a) no, you did not tell Tiana she could wear a costume; b) no, she did not ask your permission beforehand; c) if she had asked, you would have told her no and d) your other reports are just as appalled as everybody else. Your director is probably worried that there’s some sort of systemic problem at the firm and maybe you can reassure her that it was just one person with exceedingly poor judgment.

      1. Interviewer*

        I would also tell the director that every single fall for at least the next 20 years, this story will be retold in all its glory, for everyone to hear. You won’t have to mention this rule at orientation or amend the handbook. “Show up in a costume, get fired.” Message has already been received, loud & clear.

      2. Tuxedo Cat*

        I’d also add that you didn’t see her prior to the meeting, because you would’ve sent her home.

    3. e271828*

      If the LW has had an opportunity to review Princess Tiana’s work and can honestly assure the higher-ups that all that looks normal, fine, there is no glitter in the files, that might help too. In a case of such heroically poor judgment, I would be worried that other whimsicality might have occurred.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        The intern who put a picture of a turtle on every document he scanned springs to mind. (From a recent open thread.)

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          I missed this completely! What?

          Was it like a watermarked turtle? Did it lurk in the corner?

          I have so many questions.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Employee manual, Jan 18: …. and you cannot insert turtles into the documents you scan.
              Employee manual, Feb 18: …. or ducks.

    4. hbc*

      Yeah, Director is in a bad spot, and seems primed to overreact to one instance. But maybe there’s a way to get her some closure. Telling people on November 2nd who didn’t wear Halloween costumes that they shouldn’t wear costumes is a bad idea, but OP can set a reminder for October 20th of next year to send out a lower key version of that notice.

      I might also do a little poll of Tiana’s closest coworkers and see if she gave any signs of her upcoming anti-stuffy activism. Then OP can go back to the Director and say, “This was a complete fluke” or “In retrospect, we should keep an eye out for A, B, and C in new recruits and make sure they know we’ve deliberately created this office culture.”

      1. LJL*

        That’s the way I’d address it with the director: “This one really surprised me, but now that it’s happened, here’s how I will prevent it from happening again. I’ll send a reminder that employees are free to enjoy Halloween on their own time but that costumes should not be in the office. ” Director is satisfied she won’t be embarrassed again, and OP will earn points for thinking ahead.

    5. Marketing LadyPA*

      I think the other thing we are forgetting is that Halloween was only two days ago, so when this letter was written, it was probably still Halloween or the day after. It’s not like it’s been months of this.

    6. One of the Sarahs*

      Yes, yes.

      OP, I can kind of get where your director is coming from, if she’s like me, and struggles with things she doesn’t understand. A bad decision that I understand where the person is coming from, that’s one thing, but I can get really caught up on the things that seem to make no sense at all, and my brain can get caught in a loop of “but WHY?”. It ties into my anxieties, and for sure it’s an issue to deal with for me, but I can see me reacting the same way to something so left-field (though I hope I’d try to keep the conversations with out-of-work friends once I saw my report was as baffled as I was).

      And it does seem like the Director is shouldering the blame herself, because she’s wondering what on earth she’s done in her departments that makes someone think this is ok. I really like that she’s not blaming OP for this, which is where I thought the letter was going, but if she were writing in, I’d give her the same advice Alison gave OP, with a bit more: this was something that they just could not anticipate, and it’s absolutely not the Director’s fault. Of course she’s mortified, and feels responsible, but she has to let it go, and accept that some people really are inexplicable.

      Going forward, OP, the only thing I can think that might prevent something like this, is saying to the new hires, at various points in their orientation, that it’s a very specific culture, and if anyone is in doubt of how it works, to ask – and to make sure there are opportunities for them to do so, both informally, and in one-to-ones and reviews. This gives you a great example to use! But maybe tell your boss how you already do this, but will be doing it more, will make her feel less anxious?

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think there might also be a whiff of “I’m concerned about your leadership because you didn’t catch this before it happened in front of clients” in the director’s response.

      In which case, the LW should treat it like other critical feedback: let the director know that she understands the concern and has a plan to prevent the problem from happening again. (“I realize that I haven’t been intentional enough in orienting new hires to the culture here, so here’s how I’m thinking about doing that differently…”)

      1. Purplesaurus*

        I got that feeling too, and that maybe firing Tiana wasn’t enough closure and they’re looking for someone else to blame.

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I agree. Especially because the OP wasn’t going to fire Princess Tiana, merely have a serious discussion with her. I think the OP is giving off a vibe of “this wasn’t a fireable offense” and the director keeps bringing it up to reinforce that it really is. I think the OP needs to demonstrate she is in line with the director’s decision.

    8. Fabulous*

      As I was reading letter #1 I was imagining the update – “And then two weeks later I was fired because my director couldn’t wrap her head around the fact that I had no idea what my hire was thinking. I had apparently lost all credibility in her eyes.” Hopefully it doesn’t come to that! OP, I definitely think you need to try and create this closure for your director and be clear (again) that there was no indication that she would do something that egregious.

    9. a Gen X manager*

      Ramona wrote, “Just reflect back. You’re telling the director they’ve Been Heard.” You’re SO right!

      This is the best advice ever! Until Boss feels acknowledged this won’t go away for OP. I hope OP sees this!

  23. Sparkly Librarian*

    I use “reach out” when I plan to contact someone or have tried to contact them but have not been successful. I would only say that I contacted them if they responded to my initial message (call, email, voicemail, letter); anything that comes before their response is me reaching out (or, at the most, “attempting to contact” them).

  24. loveAAM*

    #1 I didn’t know who Princess Tiana is, so I went to wikipedia, which made me wonder how much race has to do with the firing and the not fitting in. Someone mentioned blackface; if the person wearing the costume is not African-American and Tiana is likened to an animal, that could be a problem. If the person is African-American and the Finance environment expects white norms, that could be a problem. The firing of the first (only?) African-American princess sounds like a big deal.

    1. Amy*

      Of course it’s possible that there is racially-motivated discrimination in play here; that’s always possible, really, given that people harbor all sorts of conscious and unconscious biases. But I don’t think we have reason to think it was a primary motivating factor. It sounds like this is an environment where costumes are never, ever appropriate no matter what and where there are strict, ‘stuffy’ standards for professional behavior, in an industry that is known for not giving people any second chances. In an environment like that, it seems like common sense that dressing up and trying to trick-or-treat in the middle of a meeting with customers’ executives would have severe consequences. It’s harsh, but it sounds like the same logic would apply if it were Sleeping Beauty or Buzz Lightyear.

    2. No gifts*

      I thought this too… not that she was fired because the director is unconsciously racist but that if she’s not white, cultural norms that feel “natural” or “common sense” to white folks are actually often not so intuitive to people who didn’t grow up with them and that may be why she “doesn’t fit in”.

      I could see this explanation for just the dressing up, but trick or treating in an important meeting where no one else is dressed up, and presumably she’d seen everyone else at work not dressed up also, seems pretty extreme.

      Interested to hear what others think.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        I think it’s possibly a bit condescending to assume you have to be white to know when it is or isn’t appropriate to wear a Halloween costume or start trick or treating.

        2. Scarlet*

          This. Honestly, the idea that non-white people are less attuned to workplace norms is quite insulting.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            I don’t think that was the suggestion. I think the suggestion was that the firm likely has a white (& male) dominant culture, which isn’t actually neutral “workplace norms.”

            1. RVA Cat*

              This. I do wonder if the overreaction to her behavior has to do with race if she is one of the very few PoC at the office. Plus the fact they are apparently hounding her after the firing? I hope she knows she does not have to take their calls.

            2. sunny-dee*

              I’m female and I know not to dress up like a Disney princess and crash an important client meeting to trick or treat. As an adult. I didn’t realize that that was something only men would know.

              What you’re basically saying is that women POC are too stupid to know what literally everyone else understands innately.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                No. I’m saying that existing “workplace norms” aren’t neutral; they are informed by the dominant culture of the organization (and region, and country, and etc.) — and for most of us, that means white dominant culture.

                For example, prioritizing efficiency over spending time on relationships — not neutral. Prioritizing getting to your next meeting on time over staying in your last meeting until a conversation is resolved — not neutral.

                2. Susanne*

                  Wow, Victoria Nonprofit. That’s seriously an offensive document. It takes every negative stereotype about the business world and ascribes it to “white supremacy.”

                  Moreover, it’s not even remotely true. You’ve got to be pretty much a failure these days if you don’t pay attention to inclusion, teamwork and all the other things that this document pretends don’t exist in the workplace. What kind of numbskull companies are *not* emphasizing teamwork, showing appreciation as appropriate, and the rest?

                3. Kate 2*

                  I mean, I wouldn’t exactly say that not acting like a 5 year old (dressing up in a costume and demanding candy) from the CEO of your company and really important clients is exactly a “white male” norm. It’s . . . pretty standard actually.

                  Not to mention there’s absolutely no evidence either that Employee is black or that they are white and wore blackface.

                  As well, many of us in finance and many other fields pointed out that doing what Employee did, in any costume, would be a firing offense.

                  I really think this is nitpicking and breaking the commenting rules.

        3. Lilo*

          My experience at various workplaces is that it is younger white people who most often dress up on Halloween.

        5. N.J.*

          I agree. Black culture, however that is defined, is not a monolith. We have s range of personalities and sub-cultures just like white culture. No gifts’ comment implies that black cultural norms don’t overlap with white cultural norms in any way and that black cultural norms are contrary to the ideals inherent in what we define as business professionalism. It is a false equivalency between the stereotyped ideas of “black culture” and the real barriers to participating in a business formal society that can exist when coming from a different educational, socio-economic or sometimes yes, cultural background. Race intersects with class, privilege and economic opportunity, because of the historical constructs our society has created that prevented so many generations of African Americans from participating fully in the dominant culture, so it would be naive to think otherwise. That does not mean that all of us black people don’t have a single professional thought in our heads and are incapable of knowing not to dress up in a Halloween costume at a financial company. I don’t think that was the commenters intent, but if the default was to assume that this employee, as a black professional, was incapable of accessing the same social framework to interpret and apply the correct professional norms as a shite professional would have used in this situation, then there are some unconscious biases or assumptions that need to be examined here.

          2. Lora*

            Yes! And thank you for being patient enough to write it all out for people’s edification. I know what a pain it is to have to do Discrimination 101: We Are The Same Species, so it’s much appreciated.

            I was wondering if one of the reasons the director is so wound up about it is that she is trying to say without explicitly saying, “OMG, can you translate for me these mysterious brown people for me? I don’t speak Rap! Please explain it to me, as you have clearly had five whole months of direct interactions with this strange subculture, therefore you must be an expert on their unpredictable ways!”

            Have a few white male colleagues who are often tasked with explaining women engineers to other men. They have these type of “what is this bizarre creature thinking” conversations a lot.

      3. Amy*

        This is a thing that happens (where professional norms that seem common sense to people of one background are actually not common sense for everyone from every background). But I think ‘here is our strict and explicitly defined dress code which everyone is required to follow’ is actually pretty clear. When your handbook says “Everyone must always wear suits,” it’s hard to argue that you somehow didn’t know you weren’t supposed to show up in non-suit clothing.

    3. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Yes, I didn’t know who Princess Tiana was either and had to look her up. Michonne is also African-American so I am assuming that the fired employee must be as well. If she wasn’t then both costumes would have been spectacularly tone deaf in any setting.
      Putting that aside, coming to work in an obvious costume and then demanding candy(!) from C-level suits who would not have candy on their persons is an open challenge to be fired or disciplined.

      1. The Crusher*

        I also googled Michonne and concluded that the employee was African-American. If the costume had involved blackface, I’d assume the LW would have mentioned that.

        1. Anony at the moment*

          It’s okay to call black people black and not African-American. Mostly because Africa isn’t a country its a whole continent, and secondly because we actually don’t know if the LW is even American.

          1. Still Lurking*

            Sigh. Please don’t be “that” black person in the comments. It isn’t helpful.

            Signed,
            Black person.

    4. Anony at the moment*

      Glad someone else has brought this up. I’m very bothered and I think the LW pointing out specifically that she was Tiana and initially wanted to be Michonne was to let us know she likely isn’t white. and that matters in some ways. If anyone argues otherwise, especially if they aren’t black, then I’m not going to respond because you don’t have to live in a world that is 10x harder because of your skin so you don’t get to chime in on how it feels to be treated differently than the “default” and having to work 5x as hard for 1/2 as much. Can’t help but wonder if the reaction would’ve been different it was Princess Elsa who showed up.

      1. Lilo*

        I don’t think that is fair, I am pretty sure an Elsa in full costume would have had the same reaction.

        The employee could have found a strong middle ground, like wearing a light green business style dress or dress shirt and then keeping a small tiara or stuffed animal to maybe pop on at lunch. Enough to get the reference when put all together but still be meeting appropriate.

      2. Myrin*

        “Can’t help but wonder if the reaction would’ve been different it was Princess Elsa who showed up.”
        I mean, given what basically anyone in this thread with a background in finance said about the field’s culture and that they can totally understand firing someone for such a stunt, all without ever mentioning race, I’d guess “no”.

        I also think it’s a bit of a reach to assume the OP wanted to subtly hint at the employee in question being black – it could be, of course, but if she’d wanted to let us know her race, meaning she must have found it relevant in some way, she could’ve just come right out and said it.

        1. sunny-dee*

          Yeah, I think the point was more that the employee thought either “full on Disney princess regalia” or “sward-wielding zombie hunter” would be appropriate in a super formal office setting.

      3. Still Lurking*

        I’m black. This comment is insulting and ridiculous

        Yes, in many ways I feel like I live in a world where I have to work harder to shake off stereotypes and stigmas attached to my skin color, neighborhood I grew up in, familial status, etc. HOWEVER – I am educated and have over 10 years in corporate environments from relaxed to very conservative. I’ve never done anything this ridiculous nor have I witnessed a black person (at any level of education or work experience) in these environments do anything even close so I don’t think the Princess Elsa scenario holds any weight. I’ve never seen a white person or even a blue person do something this outside of office cultural norms ever. Not saying it could never happen but I refuse to sit back and let someone attempt to call this a race thing. I work in finance but not Finance and even in my department we tend to dress up more than the rest of the organization. This employee should have known better – college teaches you this, she just got out of university. Even the finance and accounting majors tend to be more dressed up at career fairs. Why? College teaches this. How about we not take ridiculous leaps to unlikely conclusions about the princess or the motivations of management and recognize that while some of us may not agree she should have been fired over this, it is a great “early career” lesson for a recent grad.

      4. NW Mossy*

        Because I’m a terrible person, here’s how I think it would have gone down if it were Elsa:

        “She wore an elaborate gown and trick-or-treated at an important meeting with C-suite executives and a key client. Surely you can see why we had to let her go…. let her go…..”

      5. Susanne*

        This is a really weird assumption. There is nothing in the letter that suggests that the reaction would have been any different if Princess Elsa had shown up. The behavior of showing up in full costume in an office that is traditional business dress AND the behavior of trick-or-treating in an important client meeting is what’s egregious here. Everything doesn’t need to be about persecution.

      6. Katherine*

        Dozens, if not hundreds, of people have commented that they aren’t surprised this resulted in firing, and that they’ve worked places where a person would have been fired for this string of misfires. We don’t even know if the employee is black, and there’s no reason to think that a white person would fare any better after making one error and then compounding it several times. If a person who we knew for sure was black got fired for something that everyone agreed was an innocent mistake, I’d agree with you, but those aren’t the facts here. She wore a costume without checking if it was ok, embarrassed her higher-ups, and *refused to admit she had done anything wrong.*

        Specifics matter. If LW had just said “she wore a costume” we’d be left to speculate how conspicuous it was, was it just a few accessories, was it removable, etc. She probably specified what the costume was to give us a clear picture. As for mentioning Michonne…that sounds like an even less appropriate costume (never seen the show but looks like weapons, fake blood and revealing clothing may have been involved, based on my googling?) I thought the LW was saying “and can you believe she was actually thinking of wearing this even less appropriate costume?” Racism is a serious accusation and there are a whole lot of very plausible explanations here.

    5. hbc*

      They didn’t fire the first black Disney princess–they fired the first person to show up in any costume and try to get candy during an important meeting (who happened to be the first black Disney princess). They are 100% consistent on firing people who beg for food while flagrantly violating the dress code.

      I’m not saying that it’s impossible that Rapunzel and Tiana could have shown up and gotten unequal treatment, but that’s just as much a stretch in this case as saying they’re sexist and a guy in full-on Prince Naveen costume wouldn’t have been sacked.

      1. Czhorat*

        Yeah. I think the behavior is outrageous enough that firing is, even if extreme, not unjustified. Even if it was ok to go to work in costume, it isn’t ok for an executive-level client meeting. It makes her firm look bad, and clients will be told “don’t worry – you’ll never see that person here again”.1

        1. Brandy*

          Yeah, the most important thing that people are not paying attn. to, is that this was in front of the client. Huge No-No. I don’t care who it was, white, black, regardless, you put on your most professional self in front of the clients.

    6. Jill*

      I was wondering about this as well. The costume choices suggest she is AA, and I’m wondering if a white woman would have been cut a little more slack and not be fired on the spot.

      1. Tedious Cat*

        Yes. This was terrible judgment, but employees very new to the professional world make mistakes, sometimes huge ones. I understand that finance is a particularly conservative area, but we’ve seen bigger mistakes than Tiana’ s that didn’t result in summary firing. We don’t have enough information to draw a conclusion one way or the other, but I just can’t stop asking if a preppy Cinderella would have been let off with a stern talking-to. She well might have been fired too, but I think it’s worthwhile to consider, and given that OP brought up the specific costumes, I suspect it’s on her mind too. I would be very curious about the diversity of said firm. Unconscious bias is never going to go away if we don’t become conscious of it.

      2. Q*

        That’s my thought. Not that she didn’t know because she was black, but that they were much harsher because she was. I mean, she’s gone and they’re still horrified over it.

        I don’t think the employee’s comment was totoally tone-deaf, either: she said she actually tried to pick a more work-appropriate costume. She was trying to be professional and have fun! Sure, she screwed up, but she’s getting treated way too harshly, I think.

        1. sunny-dee*

          Sword carrying zombie killer is not more work appropriate. Like … at all. It’s less juvenile, but that’s not winning.

          And they’re not clutching their pearls over someone of a different race being noticed. It was for humiliating multiple executives in front of important clients.

          I guarantee that a white person would have been fired and the director would still be freaking out if that happened. There is an intern here who is still spoken of with disgust who was 1) white, 2) male, and 3) did way less egregious behavior.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I think a young white male dressed as a ninja turtle would have gotten the same results.

            The only thing that might save you is being so elderly that they can pass the apparition off as a visiting emeritus who isn’t quite all there any more.

            1. Liz T*

              “I think a young white male dressed as a ninja turtle would have gotten the same results.”

              Oof. When you put it that way…yeah.

              Having worked in a high-pressure finance office with C-level execs who really don’t tolerate mistakes, this employee would’ve been instafired and other would’ve been *at minimum* reamed out for somehow letting it happen (even if no one knew).

              Now I work in a finance office with a way hipper vibe (nice-looking jeans are allowed) but if I’d pulled this in an important meeting with investors it would’ve been a big problem. (If it matters, I’m an admin. I can’t imagine this going over well from an analyst or intern, though.)

          2. Marthooh*

            sunny-dee: Sword -carrying zombie killer is indeed less appropriate, that’s why the employee decided on Proncess Tiana instead.

      3. Kate 2*

        Why do you say they suggest she is AA? People of all races can admire and want to dress up as people of other races.

        1. Tuxedo Cat*

          Both characters the fired employee wanted to be are black women. It’s possible of course the fired employee is not black. I wasn’t sure myself. On one hand, I don’t see a lot of non-black people in my social circle picking black characters to dress up. On the other hand, most if not all of the black colleagues and generally, people of color colleagues (myself included), are incredibly aware of stereotypes and discrimination and such. They do their best to not cause waves for something like try to change a stuffy by wearing a Halloween costume to work.

          That said, no group is a monolith and there’s surely some folks out there who are unlike the people I was describing.

    7. Madame X*

      Based on the choice of costume ideas, I also concluded this former employee was a black woman and honestly that’s the most surprising thing in this whole letter.
      In my experience as a black woman professional, among my own social group, black women who work in professional organizations are hyper aware of cultural norms and things that might make us to stick out in the negative way. So, it’s just baffling that this black woman, who apparently had a really nice professional job in the finance industry, somehow wasn’t able to figure out from the very conservative culture that dressing up for Halloween was a no-no.

      Some commenters are pointing out that the letter writer should have anticipated this in the employee training, but I disagree. If you have a degree in finance, likely interned well and then have been working in the industry for 5 months, thay is enough time to figure out the conservative culture. Dressing up in full regalia for Halloween and begging for candy from clients is not a thing that people do in this industry.

      This is also not a cultural thing where black people just don’t know how to act in corporate environments (frankly it’s a little condescending for someone to suggest that). This former employee was such an extreme outlier that her race or gender is really not the factor at play here. It’s pretty clear from the reaction of the firm that anyone behaving in this manner would have been fired for doing these things

      1. RVA Cat*

        I’m wondering if it isn’t that she didn’t know better, but the “stuffy” comment was that she had burned out on the ultra-conservative finance culture and decided to get fired instead of just quitting. If I were the OP, I would reach out to her about her overall experience with the firm and listen.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          I agree this would be interesting information to have but the letter / problem that letter writer is having is actually about managing letter writers director’s extreme dismay at the actions of Princess Tiana-dressing employee and the questions she is addressing letter writer with. The problem isn’t actually about Princess Tiana-dressing employee and what led her to do this and why she was fired, rather it’s about how letter writer can help to frame the episode/deal with the aftermath of her firing internally within the firm (and possibly externally if clients ask about it in future).

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        The begging for candy from clients is where this goes well off the rails. Having candy to give out at all inside the office would be something that is coordinated beforehand. And then you’d normally have a bowl on your desk, for tiny visiting ghosts and rock stars belonging to your colleagues. You wouldn’t carry the bowl around with you, even off-site, in case you were accosted by a large and hungry ninja turtle.

        I can picture the ride over there.
        Boss: “Arya, why are you clutching a giant bowl of Milky Ways?”
        Arya: “Because… you just never know. The trick-or-treaters, they’re everywhere, man… In the bathroom. In the fourth quarter sales meetings. Everywhere.”

      3. Madame X*

        Ugh so many typos! I wrote this on my phone.
        The 2nd sentence was supposed to read:

        In my experience as a black woman professional, and among my own social group, black women who work in professional organizations are hyper aware of cultural norms and things that might make us to stick out in a negative way.

        also

        “likely interned as well and then have been working in the industry for 5 months, that is enough time..”

      4. Brandy*

        Im very glad you said this. Several people on here have tried to make this racial and I think this would’ve been bad for anyone to do, regardless of anything. No one could think its a great idea to do this in front of a client.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Since both possible characters are black women, I assumed the employee was a black woman.

      Regardless of race and gender, anyone deciding “As the most junior person in the office, I am going to make it less stuffy!” sounds like the opening of many a letter about fired interns.

    9. Ann O. Nymous*

      Oh, please. There’s nothing in the letter to suggest that this has anything to do with race/the kind of costume she wore and everything to do with the employee being breathtakingly out of touch with her office’s norms and demonstrating a clear inability to understand where she went wrong. LW 1 mentioning specifically what costume she wore is certainly incidental. Whether the employee was the only black person in the office or whether everyone in the office was black or whether everyone, including the employee, was white, this has everything to do with her behavior.

      1. Marthooh*

        Nothing in the letter made me think the firing had to do with race, but all the ongoing “What was she thinking? Yes, but what was she thinking?” and on and on and on… maybe that has something to do with race. And that is what the OP actually needs help with.

  25. bookartist*

    I find the complete lack of scientific knowledge in letter #2 sad. Ladybugs eat aphids – the person trying to save it was actually ensuring its death from lack of food (when as mentioned above, ladybugs figured out a long time ago how to survive winter by hibernation). And Letter Writer, ladybugs do not reproduce by parthenogenesis – how could one possibly create a colony by itself?

    1. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

      My theory was where there’s one ladybug there could be two and they could start a ladybug family, something which only sounds adorable until it happens three feet from your workspace. I was not suggesting the ladybug could reproduce on its own.

      1. AJ*

        Your coworker shouldn’t have done something you didn’t want him to do, but in my opinion you are going to seem the office jerk now. In my past eight years as a horticulturist I’ve seen lady bug larva once and I still consider it something I was very lucky to see – so it’s incredibly unlikely it would reproduced. Unless the plant was inches from your mouse hand (I’m sorry, I don’t want scroll back to the top and lose this thread) I think you overreacted. Two side notes – some large office buildings with many indoor plants actually buy ladybugs to control aphids (instead of spraying insecticide) it’s called integrated pest management. It’s also entirely possible it wasn’t a ladybug – if it was more orange without defined spots it was an Asian beetle (not native).

        1. BPT*

          She’d be the office hero to me, and the coworker would be the jerk. I feel the same way about bugs and if someone was pushing one near me I would not be happy.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            Yeah, I’m here too. Her reaction seems pretty normal to me (though the comments have shown me that many people think otherwise, which is good to know).

          2. Ladybug-Hatin' LW*

            Reactions were split! Of the two people sitting close to me, one thought it was funny and the other was very sad for the ladybug. I honestly did not see anything divisive about killing a bug but I am learning this might make me the “office jerk” to some people. I’m okay being the office jerk to Ladybug Moving Coworker but not everyone else. I probably should have told him I put it outside or something to avoid that perception.

            1. JB (not in Houston)*

              And I think that’s what Alison’s advice was getting at. It’s not the kind of reputation that a person usually wants with the entire office. Fortunately, I doubt it will come up again, so hopefully you won’t have an office-wide reputation forever more as a Killer of Harmless Creatures.

              1. BPT*

                One coworker being sad for the bug does not equal “office-wide reputation forevermore as a Killer of Harmless Creatures.” Again, I cannot imagine killing a bug would get someone a “reputation,” and this entire thread would be very different if we were talking about a roach or bedbug or tick or fly or any other type of bug. You’re way overstating the issue, and if killing a bug gave me an “office-wide reputation,” then that’s not the type of place I’d want to work at anyway.

            2. AMPG*

              I love ladybugs and would have been sad if you killed one, BUT I would be willing to sacrifice one ladybug so your jerkface colleague could learn to respect boundaries. As someone who would have happily let that ladybug live nearby, I still don’t blame you one bit for your response.

  26. Sonya*

    I wonder if her colleagues fed her information that “of course, people dress up for Hallowe’en and trick or treat in the office!

    (Especially if they didn’t like her.)

      1. One of the Sarahs*

        Same – and I bet if she’d said “I asked Fergus and Wakeen, who’ve been here for 2 years, and they said go for it”, the whole thing would have played out differently.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          While I’m cringing through this very plausible scenario, this is where, when asked, you throw Fergus and Wakeen WAAAAAAAY under the bus. You don’t put your chin up and quadruple down.

          1. One of the Sarahs*

            Exactly! And if you’re still fired, you make sure absolutely everyone knows it was their fault too.

      2. an infinite number of monkeys*

        I wonder if that idea has occurred to the higher-up, and if that’s why OP keeps getting pressed for a reason?

        1. Kelly L.*

          Yeah, I think it’s at least possible. And she may be trying not to make excuses, or trying not to throw whoever under the bus, or too proud to admit she got punked.

        2. sunny-dee*

          I read it more as the director being incredibly embarrassed (and likely getting a lot of “how did this happen?” questions), and she’s pushing the OP for any other warning signs that this employee was a trainwreck.

      3. FormerOP*

        I wondered about the double-down too! I’m not excusing behavior, but when I was younger, this is exactly what I would have done. As in maybe she felt so uncomfortable with her costume, that she just dug deeper and asked for candy hoping against all hope that everyone would laugh and say “great joke, we have all changed for the better now!”
        A couple close friends pranked me fairly recently. I was embarrassed and hurt, and I got an apology and we are still friends. Again, I’m not saying this is the case, but dealing with deep embarrassment in a way that does not involve making the situation worse is not a skill I had when I was less than a year out of college.

    2. AMPG*

      I was totally thinking of that episode of “Modern Family” where Mitch’s coworkers tell him what a big deal Halloween is, and he arrives in an elaborate costume only to overhear that those two coworkers are apparently the laughingstock of the office for dressing up every year.

  27. MilkMoon (UK)*

    LW1: I’m glad your employee was fired… for HER sake. She obviously has a strong spirit and if she’d stayed in your office that might’ve been crushed out of her, which would be a travesty.

    I was working in a financial environment last winter and it was indeed grotesquely stuffy. It was so negative and oppressive that I started having panic attacks on the way to work – I hadn’t had a panic attack since I was 17, I’m 31 now.

    I told them where to stick-it at five months, aware that another young woman who’d held my position had done the same before me, and as I understood, for much the same reason (the role was new when she took it). If these companies want enough new blood to survive they’re going to have to evolve from their ‘old boy’s club’ mentality.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m really sorry you had that experience and glad you’re out of it. But I’m not sure this is really about crushing her spirit. If she thinks trick or treating is an appropriate thing to do in meetings with external visitors then the majority of workplaces won’t be a good fit for her. I work in an office where nobody will bat an eyelid if you dye your hair pink or green. I had some of my tattoos showing when I interviewed. But demanding candy from external visitors would be a gigantic no no here, too. It wouldn’t get you fired, but you couldn’t do it twice. If someone finds that kind of norm oppressive, they aren’t going to be happy in many offices.

      1. One of the Sarahs*

        Yeah, I don’t think I’ve worked anywhere where doing that in a meeting with external partners/clients would be met with anything but horror.

    2. EE*

      Surely there is a spectrum between “grotesquely stuffy… negative and oppressive… old boys’ club” and it being OK to go into a client meeting wearing a sparkly outfit asking for sweets?

      I’m a young-ish female accountant and I’ve been in a number of workplaces, some of which were consultancy-based with clients and some of which weren’t. That behaviour wouldn’t fly in any of them. But who knows? Maybe nobody in finance has ever had a “strong spirit”.

      1. fposte*

        And I’m not in finance, and it would be fine for my staff to wear costumes to work. It still wouldn’t be fine for them to come into a meeting with outside professionals and ask for candy.

    3. Kate 2*

      Expecting employees to be adults, not children, isn’t “spirit crushing”. As commenters here show, it’s standard to expect your employees not to show up in costumes and beg executives for candy, across almost ALL industries.

  28. Cas*

    See also ‘learnings’ instead of ‘lessons’, ‘socialise’ instead of ‘disseminate’, and ‘deep dive’ for ‘investigate’

    1. BookishMiss*

      Don’t forget circle back… My office has a systems change coming up next week, and the memo discussing it was 100% a bad-MBA-speak mad lib. It read like someone really trying to fluff out “we’re changing systems because x and y. You have to do it, so may as well figure it out and stop complaining” to fill two pages.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      What about “backfill” instead of “fill?” Why are we suddenly “backfilling” open positions? Are we re-hiring people who left?

    3. Moonstone*

      “Learnings” — WHY? It’s almost the correct word. We have the word. The word is “lessons.” ARG.

    4. JB (not in Houston)*

      Saying “ask” instead of “request” as a noun–“That’s a big ask.” I see it everywhere, and I hate it so so so so much.

    5. Willow*

      Wait, is socialise business speak now??? I socialise my dog at the dog park, I disseminate documents at work.

  30. DG*

    #1: Tiana showed astonishingly poor judgement, and I honestly don’t understand how anyone could have come to the conclusion that what she did was a good idea… but I also have to think very poorly of the directors and clients who were calling for this employee’s head on a platter. Yes, the incident was inappropriate, but even if it lasted for a whole minute, that’s, what, a thousand dollars worth of people’s collective salaries? Yes, people are busy and have other places to be, but I can’t imagine a reasonable person’s response as anything other than “Well, that was dumb, let’s get back to work”.

    1. Nea*

      If I were a client of that firm, I would be wondering what other poor judgement that young woman was exhibiting with my finances. Especially as the costume might be out of place at *that* company, but trick-or-treating in a client meeting is inappropriate in *any* company.

      1. Kj*

        Yep. I have worn costumes to work before- in my defense, I work with kids and it isn’t that far outside our field’s norms (we are all wearing casual clothes, all the time, and we often celebrate holidays by dressing up), but I would never think to go to a meeting and pull that. I’ve also not dressed up in certain costumes on certain days due to what I was doing that day- if I have an important meeting where I need to be taken seriously, I won’t wear my silly holiday socks and a giant wreath necklace, even if on a normal workday, that would be 100% acceptable.

      2. Ann O. Nymous*

        Agreed, I think the issue is more about her trick-or-treating in a client meeting than the fact that she wore a costume – if it were only the latter, I’m guessing (or at least, I hope) that she’d only be given a talking to and sent home to change.

        I think it’s perfectly fair if you’re using a financial services firm to be turned off by anyone behaving childishly or sillily in a client meeting – I would want whoever’s handling my money to take it seriously, and appear as if they take their job seriously. There are plenty of fields where wearing a costume would be totally fine (as a teacher, as a pediatric nurse, as a retail employee where it’s encouraged) and plenty of fields where it would be completely inappropriate (financial services, surgeon, trial attorney, etc.).

  31. Another Sarah*

    Re #1, I’m honestly surprised Alison that you don’t think this is a bigger deal.

    Maybe this is just my experience (and there might be a difference of culture being in the UK) but nowhere I’ve ever worked has had people just show up for Halloween in costume unless there was a company-wide announcement first that it was ok or encouraging it, and I honestly can’t remember the last place I worked where dressing up for a particular holiday wasn’t a charity thing where everyone pays £1 to opt in. So the costume is inappropriate in the first place to my mind but not a firing offence.
    On the other hand the trick or treating in the office is just astounding to me. Again this is just my experience – but trick or treating has never been a part of any workplace situation I’ve ever seen or heard of ever, because you don’t trick or treat all day on Halloween, you do it in the evening, and adults don’t trick or treat, kids do. I mean you might get the odd parent taking kids round, but trick or treating is a children’s activity.
    So co-worker trick or treating would just make her look weirdly childlike and immature in the first place. She compounded things when she brought it into the wrong situation, and then she didn’t keep it to her peers, she didn’t even keep it to her workplace, she wandered up to important clients in a formal business setting when high level execs are trying to show the company’s professionalism and hit them up for candy while dressed like a Disney princess.

    I’ve got to admit I really wish I’d been there just so I could see the look on people’s faces.

    I can totally understand the director’s embarrassment and confusion – when someone does something so clearly lacking in basic social understanding you do wonder if you’ve inadvertently done something that would make them think it was ok. I suspect she’s still getting grief herself from the higher levels because it is really weird and off-putting for the client that someone would do that and it makes the company look bad by association – and also, how did co-worker get as far as the meeting without someone stopping her and sending her home, unless she didn’t even stop by her desk in the morning beforehand?

    1. Pickles*

      Yes. That last part is what I really don’t understand. How did she make it to the meeting without being stopped by literally anyone else?

      1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

        It was like a train wreck. People were so shocked they couldn’t react and could only watch in stunned disbelief.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Theory is she wasn’t supposed to be in the meeting. OP figured “you know clients and C suite will be in our offices that day” was a reason most people would figure out wackiness should wait for another day.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I think Halloween is 1) a much bigger thing in the US and 2) has really blown up in the last few years. My friends with kids tell me it’s like a multi-day EVENT now, and my young adult friends make it a much bigger deal than it used to be. I noticed several of our young staff wearing costumes this year. I find it SUPER weird. My rule for my employees is that I’ll be somewhat flexible on their attire as long as they always have a suit on hand to change into if they get called for a briefing.

      1. Another Sarah*

        I thought Halloween was a bigger deal in the US, but can you clarify the trick or treating thing? Do adults generally trick or treat? That’s the part that’s really weird to me.

        1. Lindsay J*

          No they don’t, at least in my experience.

          They dress up at work, and then go to parties or go out to bars if they’re into that sort of thing.

          And most of the partying/bar stuff tends to happen on the weekend before. Most of the adults I know of who dressed up did so on the 28th and went out, and then carried on as normal on the 31st.

          1. Steph B*

            We ended up with some adults (sometimes with baby in a carrier, a couple times not — just accompanying their kids) trick or treating on our street this year.

            I’m cool with kids all the way into high school trick or treating because being a teen is hard (we were the cool house with full size bars for the older kids this year), but adults I totally side-eye. You can buy your own candy! Your baby is not eating solid foods yet, but you want to gather a giant bag of candy? :|

        2. Liane*

          No, most American adults don’t go trick or treating, except of course for people taking the kids around to trick or treat.
          I did work at one US job (medical device/pharmaceutical company based in England) where our site at least had trick or treating along with costumes. But the employees were just handing out the candy, not asking for it. Our site always invited a local preschool or 2 to bring their kids through, and maybe some employees brought their kids. No, they didn’t go into work areas; we waited at our doors. Yes, it is possible to work in a lab in Jedi regalia.

        4. Fabulous*

          Definitely agree that Halloween must be a much bigger deal in the US. I’m in my 30’s and still attend Halloween parties almost every year. My friend who throws the parties is in her 50’s! I always try to come up with a unique costume; this year I went as Lucille Ball, last year I was a Basic Bitch (Northface, leggings, Starbucks, Uggs, the whole works), and the year before was Daenerys Targaryen. All homemade costumes and I go all out. My work allows costumes too: I was Alice in Wonderland last year and a stereotypical Frenchman (beret included) the year before.

          As for trick-or-treating, my neighborhood (and it may be because I live fairly close to a poorer complex around the corner) had a lot of adults accompanying their kids trick-or-treating on the 31st. And not just when they stand out on the sidewalk as the kid comes up to the door, like they were up at the door with bags too. Sometimes they were carrying toddlers, but a lot of times not. Lots of older kids too, like 14-15 years old. I just say, it’s better they’re still trick-or-treating than out causing trouble somewhere!

        5. Falling Diphthong*

          It might happen in a college? Where the context would be it was announced beforehand, times were given (like 8-10 on the 30th, orange pumpkin on your door if you’re in), and the idea was that people were feeling homesick and this embrace of childhood traditions would be fun.

          Otherwise you attach yourself to a small child and hope they are not yet savvy enough to count their Reeses cups.

        6. Coalea*

          Three days ago, my answer would have been a resounding “NO.” However, this Halloween, I saw multiple adults who, in addition to taking their kids trick or treating, also had their own bags that they held out for candy. And one solo man came to our house claiming that he was trick or treating on behalf of his kids who weren’t able to come out. I would bet cash money that this man has no children.

        7. SarahTheEntwife*

          Dressing up at work is pretty common, as is putting out a bowl of candy for the office, but trick-or-treating at the office isn’t something I’ve ever heard of (other than by associated children).

        8. paul*

          No. Although I did help my youngest carry his bag while our group was out trick or treating (6 kids with 3 adult chaperones).

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            My son’s first trick-or-treating involved marching up to three houses, snarling “I have a flashlight!” and then going home because this was all too weird.

        9. Ann O. Nymous*

          I think it’s not uncommon for adults to dress up for Halloween at work in the US – especially if you work with kids or have some kind of public, customer service/retail job where you’re supposed to look like you’re fun & approachable. Some offices encourage costumes, but I personally think it’s a little weird and unprofessional to dress up at work as an adult (dressing up for parties and such I think is fine, although not my cup of tea).

          However, I’ve NEVER seen an adult trick or treat before, and if I did see it happen I would be shocked and in full-on WTF mode. It’s just Not Done.

      2. EvilQueenRegina*

        I’m in the UK and I’ve felt like it seemed to have blown up a bit here the last few years. But I really can’t imagine a situation where people would wear costumes to work unless it was a planned event. Tiana really should have asked her manager first before coming in in costume.

    3. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

      I agree with you completely Another Sarah. I’m from Ireland, where Halloween originated, though where it hasn’t grown to the same scale as in the US, and I find this story gobsmacking. I couldn’t imagine the horror of being asked/encouraged to wear a custome to work. Massive cringefest.

        1. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

          Well there’s a discussion to be had about that, but we like to take the claim for it! Samhain is the Irish for both November and the old Celtic feast of the New Year on 1 November; thus, Halowe’en is Oíche Samhna or the eve of Samhain.

      2. EE*

        Ian, me too and I brought barmbrack into work for my Australian colleagues to try, warning them of course what they might find inside! THAT was a perfectly appropriate cultural reference. It broke no rules.

        Costumes would be weird. Not firing weird unless one gatecrashed meetings, of course, but weird.

        1. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

          Thanks for the barmbrack reference! I’ll take lovely fruit cake over costumes any day.

          Fancy dress at work would be so weird to me. It makes me wonder why adults would want to do it. Don’t costumes feel childish?

      3. Katie the Fed*

        Well, we also really outdo you guys on St. Patrick’s day celebrations, in a particularly tacky and extreme way :)

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      True – did occurr (also in UK) that she couldn’t have been fired here for it without a lot of difficulty as you’d really have to stretch “gross misconduct” to cover asking for sweeties!

      1. Bagpuss*

        Not really.
        She’d only been there 5 months so in the UK she could be fired for any reason (or none) as long as it wasn’t because of a protected characteristic such as gender, disability, race, sexuality etc.

        Even if she had been therefor more than 2 years and therefore had employment protections, you wouldn’t need to be able to find gross misconduct to sack her. ‘Gross Misconduct’ simply means the conduct is so serious that it justifies firing someone without notice. You can still fire someone for less serious offences, it’s just that they will normally be entitled to either work out their notice period or be paid in lieu. Employment contracts have a deemed clause of mutual trust and confidence, a breakdown of which can be the basis for dismissing someone.

        It would come down to following proper procedures but it would be perfectly possible to dismiss someone for showing appalling judgment and embarrassing the employer in front of clients, although you would have to follow proper disciplinary processes.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      In our company, I’m on social committee – we arranged a halloween event where people dressed up, there was a competition for the best outfit, and had halloween type goodies on offer. We had to get that cleared with HR & board before we did it.

  32. Foreign Octopus*

    For #1, does anyone else remember that episode of Modern Family when Mitch turned up to work at his new office dressed as Spiderman?

    He thought he had read the culture correctly but everyone (except for two people, I think) was dressed normally. Cue to hilarity as he tried to climb down the side of the building.

    That would be the appropriate reaction to turning up to work in costume and realising that no one else was wearing one. Not to walk into a high-level meeting and ask for candy. It just baffles me.

    However, with regard to the manager constantly asking, you could try something like this.

    “Yeah, it was very strange, but I honestly don’t know what to tell you. She seemed perfectly fine before this, I had no problems with her work, and this came out of the blue for me as much as for you. I suppose the best thing to do now would just be to forget about it. [Insert change of subject here].”

    1. Janie*

      I was reminded of The Office when Pam dresses up as Charlie Chaplin while at the corporate branch, only to find out that nobody dresses up at corporate and that she has to leave the bowler hat on because otherwise she looks like Hitler.

  33. Ryan*

    Holy cow. Today’s letters are [mostly] over the top…. so glad I don’t work anywhere or with anyone like the first 3!

  34. MuseumChick*

    OP 1, it sounds like your director was so embarrassed by your employee, and getting so much heat from the people above her, that she took a burn-and-salt-the-earth approach.

  35. Anony at the moment*

    #1 is making me really uncomfortable for one reason in particular. The fact that she was fired so abruptly without any disciplinary action for doing something pretty normal in most places on Halloween (it would be weird if she did this in February, not on October 31st — aside from not being the cultural norm at that office) but perhaps they wanted a reason to get rid of her. There are context clues that make me suspicious of this that I know will make other people, who don’t deal with it every day, groan and roll their eyes. But because certain things were pointed out specifically so I could read between those lines, I can’t help but wonder. It happens. That’s the messed up world we live in. Not gonna debate it with people who don’t experience it firsthand though, because you will never know what it is like.

    Anyway, would it be worth it to reach out to her to give her a little advice and encouragement after she was let go? If she was an otherwise good employee I would.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      You mean that she’s probably black? Yeah, I went there too. :/

      I think it’s weird for adults to wear costumes to work, but I also expect newbies to make some mistakes their first few months.

    2. hbc*

      She wasn’t fired for doing something normal. Coming in costume is forgivable. Trick or treating when everyone is in costume but they don’t usually do that is forgivable. Coming into a high level meeting (that you may or may not be invited to) as a newbie and not keeping things on topic is forgivable. All three plus stating that you deliberately did it to tweak everyone? She was far, far past normal. On purpose.

    3. sunny-dee*

      I work in a super laid back environment — people have full sleeve tats, wear shorts to work, have dyed hair. The higher management types still were suits (or at least slacks and button downs). Trick or treating as an adult would be super, super weird; even dressing up in an elaborate costume like that would stick out a little. Crashing a C-level meeting to trick or treat would almost certainly get you on a PIP, and this is for an environment that allows flip-flops on a daily basis.

      There is no way, in an environment that is so formal they don’t allow peep-toe heels, that this wouldn’t have been a blinking neon sign of NOPE. She obviously knew it was out of sync because of her “stuffy” comment. She humiliated upper management in front of clients.

      I get that she’s black; it was obvious from the context. But the only reason she wouldn’t have been fired was if they decided to give her a pass because of her race; a white employee would have (and should have) been out just as fast.

    4. Noah*

      Interrupting client meetings isn’t normal. Interrupting client meetings in costume to trick or treat is really not normal. It was totally reasonable to fire her.

    5. Observer*

      Actually, dressing up for Haloween is not all that normal in “most” workplaces. More importantly, it’s NOT normal at ALL in workplaces with strict dress codes. Even MORE important is the fact that she did this in fornt of IMPORTANT CLIENTS *and* she asked the clients for candy!

      That is not normal in ANY workplace.

    6. Kate 2*

      No, as I and other commenters mention it really isn’t normal in most industries to dress up on Halloween, and it is absolutely outrageous that she did so in the finance industry. As has been pointed out, over and over again, ANYONE in ANY costume showing up in the finance industry would get at least a stern talking to. Walking into a meeting between the CEO of the whole company, other C-suite executives, and major clients is cause for an immediate firing.

      This is something that MANY African American commenters have already pointed out, a few also in the finance industry. I don’t think it useful or obeying the commenting rules, to keep bringing this up.

    7. Max from St. Mary's*

      Another vote for not all that normal to dress up in the workplace. At my work this week, only one department out of more than a dozen dressed up, and most of those workers were students.

  36. Florida*

    Sometimes I find that my tolerance for the language that people use depends on who says it. If I like you and you use “reach out,” I don’t even notice it. If you annoy me in other ways and you use “reach out,” it grates on my nerves. It’s not what you say, it’s who says it.

  37. Katie the Fed*

    #2 – your coworker could be a Jain. Seriously – they practice nonviolence to such an extent that they sweep the sidewalks in front of them to make sure they don’t accidentally step on a bug.

    I know it’s hard to understand, but either for that or another reason he really wanted to save this bug. He went about it wrongly – next time redirect him. But it might have been very important for him.

    1. N.J.*

      Or the coworker could be Buddhist as the impression is that they believe in the sacredness of all life as well. The problem is though, that the OP specifically said she would kill the lady bug if he left it and asked him in several ways not to put the creature near her. If she signaled to someone that holds insect life sacred that there was a high likelihood that she would cause harm to the insect, why did he double down and try to call her bluff? That was a stupid move on his part. If we are examining the angle of religious or moral belief, the. I find it akin to their moral beliefs being incompatible. If he is a vegan and the LW is a meat eater, for example, and constantly eats steak at her desk, then it violates his moral code, so to speak, but he has no authority to force her to comply with that code. Same with the bug incident. If he had a strongly held religious conviction that compels him to save insects, that is noble and laudable, but it doesn’t give him the right to dictate whether the LW can kill an insect that is near her, even more so when she gave him a warning that she would engage in an activity that is incompatible with his beliefs if he chose to put an insect near her.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Right – I’m not arguing otherwise. But trying to encourage a little empathy that this may have been something pretty important to him.

        1. N.J.*

          I don’t disagree that it’s important to him and maybe for a deeply personal reason, such as a sincerely held religious belief. But I just can’t find much sympathy for him. If the LW had somehow forced him to kill a bug and therefore violate his sicrerely held belief, all the sympathy in the world. But he directly violated her comfort and bodily integrity (not quite the right wording to use but hopefully it gets across the violation of her feelings of safety, the integrity of her space/environment etc.) , so he doesn’t get any sympathy at all from me, not even if it is a sincerely held religious belief. Now you f he had approached her and explained that his religious belief compelled him to rescue an insect and that the plant near the OP was the best way to accomplish that goal and asked for her assistance in achieving that goal, msybe he would have my sympathy, but she would still have the right to tell him to tshd it elsewhere.

    2. fposte*

      I think a Jain would have moved the bug when she told him not to leave it there or she’d kill it.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes, his theory of bug-saving isn’t just entomologically wrong, but also wrong in its evaluation of how to interpret explicit verbal threats to the bug from the person whose space you’re invading with it.

        A theme for me the past few years is that results–and particularly easily-foreseeable results–trump hypothetical intentions.

      2. Brandy*

        Im not a Jain, but I feel bad for bugs. If I saw a ladybug and couldn’t get her outside, id be likely to put it in a plant, I wouldn’t let the plant owner know, Id be all stealth. But if they told me they were going to kill it, id keep it away for its safety. Ive saved ladybugs from spider webs before. but know some bugs fly and could fly to or off from a plant at any time. Im not thrilled about bugs at my desk or inside at all.

  38. Murphy*

    I had no idea people had such stong thoughts about “reach out.” I’ve never given the phrase a second thought.

  39. Amy V.*

    I am OP #3. The very day I sent that, my 27 year old son texted me, as he was traveling for work to my childhood home town. Told me he would reach out to an elderly relative who still lives there, for a visit. He asked “does she text” which she does. So now I’m theorizing “reach out to” is also a way to indicate you’re not going to commit to talk on the phone (apparently now fallen into disfavor) but you will in some way communicate.

    1. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

      Why is he averse to talking to his relative on the phone? Apart from young people being generally phone call-averse these days.

        1. Amy V*

          He’s just one of those phone-call averse young people. But he gets points with me for looking up a lady who will be very happy to see him!

    2. ZVA*

      I think “reach out” is just a way of saying you’re going to contact the person, without specifying how you will do so. Maybe you’ll call, maybe you’ll text… (I also prefer “reach out” to “contact” because, to me, “reach out” suggests you will try but not necessarily be successful. If I call a client, for example, and they don’t pick up, I’ll leave a voicemail, but I wouldn’t consider that having “contacted” them, like I would if they picked up and we had a conversation.)

  40. Naomi*

    I work in a much less “stuffy” industry, where it wouldn’t be unusual to allow employees to dress up for Halloween, but even in that kind of culture it would be weird to go around asking coworkers for candy, and frankly make the employee look immature.

    Something I don’t think anyone has pointed out yet–to me, it’s not clear from the letter whether the employee was actually invited to the meeting. If she wasn’t even supposed to be there and just waltzed in to demand candy, that escalates the level of the offense.

    2. Mike C.*

      I think it’s more useful to assume the OP gave all the pertinent information rather than trying to make up reasons to further blame this young woman.

      1. Naomi*

        Not trying to make up reasons to blame her (or suggest that OP withheld information–they may just not have realized they didn’t make that clear). The point cuts both ways: if she was indeed invited, there’s a better case that firing her was an overreaction to a new grad misjudging her office culture. Whereas if she barged into a client meeting for a frivolous reason, that’s the primary offense here and the costume just made it more spectacular.

  41. Katie the Fed*

    The one thing that really bothers me about LW1 is that the employee refused to acknowledge that she’d made a serious error in judgment and kept insisting she’d done nothing wrong. I don’t know that it would have changed the outcome, but it really chafes me when I give an employee feedback and they argue with me excessively and tell me what they did was fine.

  42. Another person*

    #1 – In one office we had a policy where we could dress up on Halloween unless we were meeting with external parties. I had to dress professionally one Halloween only to walk our visitors past a cast of costumed characters in the hall, including a guy wearing a pimp suit….

    But I digress. The key phrase in the letter seems to be the director has never been so “embarrassed”. In some really restrictive work cultures I would imagine that alone is a firing offense. I know I was once very harshly reprimanded at a new job (mid-career not fresh out of college) for what I thought was a fairly minor offense because it made my boss “look bad”. It told me what I suspected; the culture was a bad fit for me.

    I hope your former employee finds a work environment better suited to her personality.

    1. AnonThisTime*

      Seriously, I was thinking, “If this is the most embarrassing thing that has ever happened to you, you have led a blessed life.”

  44. Sarah*

    Why was it worded “asking everyone to give her candy?” That sounds so much worse than saying “trick-or-treating”!

  45. snarkarina*

    I really thought number 2 was going to be about an evesdropping device type of “bug,” and now I’m just confused . . . Ladybugs are harmless.

    1. Merida Ann*

      I am majorly creeped out by any creature with more than 4 legs. Lots of spiders and ants and other bugs are also harmless and I would still be completely freaked out if someone put one near me. I would spend at least that entire day on edge, worried that it was going to crawl on me or land on me or show up when I picked up a paper, etc. I would have phantom itches all day thinking that something had crawled on me or bitten me, and I’d be swatting at my arms and legs out of instinct thinking that the bug was on me. I know most bugs aren’t going to hurt me, but they are still a major issue for me and this would have made me very upset, uncomfortable, and unfocused for at least a full day. Yes, it’s irrational, but it’s still true, and the LW made it very clear that she didn’t want the ladybug near her, so the coworker should not have put it near her.

  46. Nox*

    We have a very formal environment and advise our c level, client visitors and employee applicants ahead of time when we do theme weeks or Halloween. Most of the time they are always well received and people [except for applicants] sometimes join in.

    I think it’s a culture mismatch. I wouldn’t work for that type of culture either. Life is too short to take every waking day as serious but I can see from other posters they that this would be an issue in their respective fields. I hope tiana finds a culture compatible with her in the future.

    2. FormerOP*

      “Gift” as a verb used to really grind my gears. What’s wrong with sticking with “give”? Then I re-read Jane Eyre and it is in there as a verb. Sigh. But it still really winds me up.

      1. Lehigh*

        That is my only pet-peeve word. It may be partly because I first heard it in MLM contexts, but it just sounds so needlessly snooty to me. Like the speaker is trying to be too high-class to say “gave.”

        1. oranges & lemons*

          I feel the same way about people saying “myself” instead of “me”–it’s usually used incorrectly, but I think people use it to sound fancier.

        2. Kelly L.*

          And “ask” as a noun, because they used it in telemarketing to refer to the three different times you were supposed to implore the callee to give you money.

        3. cornflower blue*

          My pet peeve word (okay, phrase) is using “believe in” when you actually mean “approve of”.

          “I don’t believe in casual Friday.” It’s not a unicorn, Karen, some people do come to work in jeans.

      2. Jennifer Thneed*

        And I first ever heard that usage when I was working at a Renaissance festival. And it was about 1980.

        All of these things irritate me no end, but I keep it to myself — or admit it and also that it’s my pet peeve. Because I am married to a linguist* and one of linguistics students’ favorite phrases is “any noun can be verbed”. It’s true**, if annoying, and it’s also a perfect example of itself. And it’s one of the ways that language changes. Nouns have been being verbed for, oh, as long as there’s been English***.

        * she takes exception to this because she’s not a working linguist. Oh well!
        ** this may also be true in other languages but since I don’t know, I limit my statement to what I do know.
        *** I’m only speaking of modern English, which starts at about 1550****, although it’s probably also true of Old English and Middle English. Which, honestly, are different languages, right?
        **** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English

    3. JB (not in Houston)*

      I really think that’s why I don’t like it as a verb–reading Nero Wolfe in my impressionable years

  48. Aurora*

    This just cements my belief that finance is a field full of stuffy jerks who don’t believe in happiness and I should stay about ten miles away at all times.

    Signed, someone whose workplace had investor visitors on Halloween and everyone decorated wildly and wore costumes.

    1. NW Mossy*

      I’ve worked in financial services my whole career, and I wouldn’t characterize any of the places I’ve worked as “stuffy” or “don’t believe in happiness” – I’ve never had to wear business dress or cultivate a semi-permanent Mask of Seriousness. But even in those parts of the industry where firms are smaller and physically apart from the long cultural history of Northeastern high finance, Tiana-in-the-boardroom (despite the character’s business acumen) would be more than a little tone-deaf. My company might not have fired her, but you can bet that she’d have left on her own within a year due to her inability to live down That Time She Trick-Or-Treated The CEO.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      When you control other people’s money, “uptight, no shenanigans” is usually going to be the desired vibe.

      If you’re hiring a person to look after your firm’s finances, “kinda anal” is a plus.

      1. Kate 2*

        Yep, handling people’s life savings, controlling millions of dollars, it’s a very serious thing. Depending on the size of the mistake you could actually ruin lives. Forgive me, but I don’t want happy-go-lucky, manic pixie dream people looking after my money. I want the uptight person who freaks out if a penny is out of place.

  49. MsManager*

    I’m not a huge fan of costumes, but I’m surprised at the extent of shock and horror expressed . All the monocle popping and pearl clutching because oh my stars someone deviated from the norm! The explanations as to why this is so egregious seem to boil down to “because we just don’t do that”. If the holy C suiters were so grievously offended that they cannot function after the horrifying sight of a costumed adult maybe they should seek therapy.

    1. Czhorat*

      It wasn’tan internal c-suite level meeting; it was a client meeting. For those one needs to dress professionally, even if costumes had been acceptable in the office.

    2. Colette*

      Client meetings are a big deal. In general, clients are why the company exists and pays you to show up.

      I don’t think wearing a costume is a big deal (even in this environment where it’s not allowed, wearing one would be a minor mistake). Interrupting a client meeting to try to trick or treat are much bigger problems. (Even if she was invited to the meeting, this is very, very inappropriate).

      And then saying what she did was OK and the firm was too stuffy was pretty much inexcusable.

      1. MsManager*

        Yes I am aware that clients are a big deal. I have clients. I still think the comments are over the top. She wore a costume. She didn’t hop up on the conference table and take a dump. She didn’t sacrifice a live chicken. She didn’t grope an intern (which might have earned the applause of the c-suiters actually).

        And, she was fired for her sin against humanity and all that is good in the world. What more do people want?

        1. fposte*

          Just to make their point in contradistinction to people who think she shouldn’t have been fired. Nobody’s arguing that anything more should have happened to Tiana.

          1. Lehigh*

            I think what’s making me really roll my eyes at the company is that apparently the C-Suite is still on this person’s director about this. Like, she was fired. Can you move on with your life??

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, that I agree with. If this was a bigger issue, like blackface or something, take bigger steps; if it wasn’t, dress up as Elsa and let it goooo.

            2. sunny-dee*

              Well, presumably this just happened two days ago, so it’s not like they’re talking about it for years. And I think there is a certain question on how someone could be so grossly out of step with company norms — was she a trainwreck or insubordinate or unprofessional in other areas? Should she have been disciplined or coached earlier?

    3. The Other Dawn*

      It wasn’t just an internal meeting. It was a meeting with important external clients. That’s a huge deal. And the employee wouldn’t even admit she did something wrong, even when told she was clearly wrong.

      1. Czhorat*

        Exactly.

        As I said upthread, even if costumes were ok in the office, they would not be OK for a client meeting.

        This was a huge lapse in judgement, with little indication that the employee knows why it was.

    4. NW Mossy*

      It’s probably not so much that any executive was offended, but more that they’re wondering what the heck is going on down on the front line if people are showing up in costume to meetings with them when that is Not A Thing in their organization.

      If you’re an executive, chances are that you spend 95% of your time in meetings that operate under a culture of professional norms. Chances are that your ability to read those professional norms and deftly navigate them is a huge part of how you got that seat at the table in the first place. And when someone else rolls up who gives every impression of having wildly missed the mark on reading the room, it’s even more of a contrast.

      The fact that clients were attending is also a major factor, especially in financial services. You’re asking clients to trust you with their money, and the visual signals you send off are important. You want to give off the impression that you take them and their money seriously and will treat their funds with care. A Halloween costume is about fun, frivolity, and a devil-may-care attitude, which is the exact opposite of what they’re going for.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      “Please give us your money. We’re quite weird” is not the message most firms try to send to clients.

      1. Anonym*

        Right. Competition for business in financial services is ferocious. Looking disorganized or like your staff isn’t 100% focused on client needs is sufficient reason for a client to move to another provider, because there are plenty of other firms that won’t show worrying signs of disorder *during a client presentation*. And depending on the firm, subfield and client, the account could be worth millions or even billions in revenue.

        It seems bizarre, I know, but her behavior could cause financial damage to the company. Likely? Perhaps not. Possible? Oh yes. And that’s enough reason to let someone go. Bad judgement = liability.

      2. Anon for this*

        Not all finance companies and banks are “stuffy”.

        My employer, a major Australian bank, sponsors the LGBTQI Mardi Gras celebration every year and we’ve made a very public stand on marriage equality in Australia. Actually, all the major banks have. Every year in March, we put rainbow fascia on our ATMs and call them “GAYTMS”.

        People, including existing clients, regularly comment on our Facebook page that we need to stop being political and stick to banking. We have defiantly stood up and said, “No, *you’re* welcome to leave. This is our stance as a bank and as a group of human beings from all walks of life.” I don’t think we consider their threats of attrition much of a loss.

        But we’re traded on the ASX 50 and we’re a blue-chip stock with a century and a bit of history behind us. Maybe we have earned that leeway.

  50. Lily Rowan*

    Got to work, read here, talked to my boss who asked me to set up a meeting with someone, went to email the person and immediately typed, “[boss] asked me to reach out to you…” So I guess I know where I stand on this! Heh.

  51. Malibu Stacey*

    I’m an admin in a financial services firm and I don’t think the firing was unwarranted. I’m assuming the employee wasn’t invited to the meeting if she was that junior and I think the firing is more about disrupting an important client meeting than wearing a costume. Also, client meetings in finance are highly confidential- you don’t interrupt unless it’s an emergency.

  52. nnn*

    As someone with a severe bug phobia (including ladybugs – despite the cute name and pretty colours, they still have legs!) my next step would be to move the plants far, far away from me. Ideally out of my office, so there’s a door between them and me. Perhaps even go as far as to throw out the plants.

    And if anyone asks me why, I’d say “There were bugs in them.”

  53. nnn*

    Re: “reach out”, I’m in my mid-30s, and it’s a phrase I picked up as a teen from people of my parents’ generation, who I believe were using it in an attempt to appear some combination of warmer and more proactive. It became part of my vocabulary because I was just starting to develop a “grownup professional communications” vocabulary, so I emulated the adults around me.

    1. Birdie*

      I’ve never said “Reach out” I always say “contact”. That mixed with my very old name probably make people think they are emailing an extremely older lady when in reality I’m in my early 20’s. (seriously I’ve never met anyone born after 1945 with my name)

  54. Erin*

    #1 – Wearing a costume is one thing, but wearing it to a meeting, asking for candy, and the later calling the office “stuffy” does seem kind of weird to me. I used to work in a financial office and even if I was younger I couldn’t see not getting that that would not be okay. That said, I agree your boss is overreacting.

    I’d probably saying say something like, “I don’t think we need to reprint the handbook for everyone based on the actions of one person who is no longer here. I do think we need to make expectations about this sort of thing more clear to new hires, particularly if they’re just out of college, which I plan on doing going forward.” If they keep asking you what they were thinking I’d say, “Honestly, I’m not sure what you want me to say. With all due respect I can’t read her mind. But the issue has been resolved and I’m going to ensure it doesn’t happen again.”

    If they keep pressing after that then yeah, reprint the handbook I guess. So then you could say something like, “I’ve reprinted the handbook, the employee has been fired, and I’m going to do a thorough job of briefing any new employees on our office culture. Is there something else I need to be doing on this issue or can we consider it resolved?”

    #2 – Definitely let it go unless it happens again. At that point I’d say something like, “Hey, I’m not sure if you thought I was joking before, and I understand it’s not a big deal to you. But I actually really don’t like insects, at all, any of them, and I need to seriously ask you not to put them near my desk.”

    #3 – Because “contact” implies that you in fact made contact with them. “Reaching out” means you sent them an email or left them a voicemail and are waiting to hear back.

  55. Mike C.*

    Many of the comments regarding the young woman who was fired are frankly maddening. The idea that she should have “simply known”, that she was “asking for it” or that “its just common sense” are ridiculous. You don’t know what you don’t know.

    I’m one of the few in my age cohort to jump social classes – I grew up in a straight blue collar household and I’m in white collar work. There is a massive transition between these two worlds. So much to learn and understand that those who were simply born into it unfairly treat as “common sense”. Sure my parents taught me how to be polite and act in public, but there’s no way they could have known the advanced rules and expectations in these environments.

    Had no one taken me aside to explain “how things work”, I could have been the subject of this letter. These aren’t things you can always absorb just by being there, and given my parents focus on “working hard” and “doing the job”, these unwritten rules would have flown right over my head. “But for the grace of God go I” really applies here. I’m clearly not stupid nor lacking in common sense, and frankly I think much of the anger comes from those who have had close calls themselves and are embarrassed by the memory. But remember, this employee did something embarrassing, not harmful. She broke rules no one bothered to tell her.

    So maybe we should take a break from being so judgemental and have a little more empathy. She screwed up, but no one was actually hurt.

    1. nnn*

      Your comment makes me wonder if in her past jobs, wearing Halloween costumes has in fact been “how things work” – not just be permitted to wear them, but having to wear them for “team spirit” or whatever. I could imagine that happening at some of the jobs I worked at as a student.

      1. Allison*

        Oh man, I do remember working in places where your team picked a costume theme, and if you opted out to wear plainclothes or wear your own costume, you weren’t a “team player.” But even if you worked somewhere like that, it’s no excuse for assuming every company allows it or deliberately going against the grain to rebel against “stuffy” office norms.

    2. Shadow*

      Rules can’t be written for everything. I mean they don’t normally tell you that you’re required to show up everyday or that you can’t steal someone’s lunch from the fridge. And if you work in a strict environment where you wear what amounts to a uniform everyday it’s common sense that you should probably ask if you want to wear something else.

      1. Mike C.*

        It’s not about every last little detail being codified, it’s about us understanding that we are shaped by our experiences and if there are critical holes in that experience this is what can happen.

        I’m certain I’ve done things that folks here would call me stupid for, but they think it’s stupid because they grew up in environments where they learned very early that such things were stupid and I did not. That’s not my fault. Sure I found my way, but I had a lot of help from people who understood this and were willing to tell me that I screwed up and how not to screw up in the future.

        I wasn’t born knowing this, I didn’t simply reach workplace Nirvana, I was taught this.

        1. Sylvan*

          You’re kind of assuming a lot about people’s backgrounds here. We all struggle with adjusting to new environments, and I found unspoken dress codes particularly confusing. But I’m not sure if it makes sense to extend that understanding to excuse wearing a costume and trick-or-treating in a meeting.

          1. MsMorlowe*

            I’ve had some dress code screw-ups before (Yes, others are wearing tracksuits to work. They are PE teachers, and you are not.–> this took a good while to click with me!) but I agree that there’s a big difference between not being entirely sure what constitutes ‘professional’ (like the many, many letters about interns wearing jeggings or skirts this side of too short, or jeans to a meeting) and dressing up as a Disney princess and trick-or-treating a meeting of C-suite execs and clients. I know that ‘common sense’ is mostly bogus, but that’s less ‘common sense’ and more putting a bit of thought into something–did she mention to anyone that she was going to dress up? How did they react? She doubled down after and said the culture was too stuffy?

            Her actions show a lack of thought, not a lack of common sense.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              A stubborn inability to adapt her approach to new information. I can see why a manager would fear that would leak over into other aspects of work.

        2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          Your point is well taken that professional norms are learned, and sometimes people learn what’s normal for their work environment on the fly because they didn’t pick it up somewhere else, and having patience for very young professionals is generally a good thing. But respectfully, by commenting about the environments in which other commenters were raised, you’re assuming quite a lot.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      But would you really expect to get away with being reprimanded, then explaining that you shouldn’t be reprimanded or punished because what you did was OK? Denying responsibility, faulting the employer, and failing to apologizeonce you are told of an offense is not acceptable anywhere that I’ve ever worked, blue collar or white collar.

      1. Mike C.*

        Look, the reaction wasn’t great, but I take it as a reaction made in shock, not something that was said in a well considered manner.

      2. Mike C.*

        Sorry, that wasn’t complete. I would have also expected some sort of incredibly stern talking to (well, more likely yelling at, let’s be honest here) about how I’ve screwed up and one more thing and I’m fired. That seems much more reasonable to me.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Whether she deserves a warning or not is a reasonable point we could debate…if she hadn’t been so defiant and refused to take responsibility or even accept a verbal reprimand without defiance. In fact, it sounds like the sequence of events was that she deflected and denied and then was fired, so they could have taken that into account:

          She told me afterward that she didn’t see what the problem was and wanted to bring fun to our “stuffy” office. I asked her if anyone told her it was okay for her to dress up and she said it was her idea and she didn’t talk about it with anyone here. […] I was going to have a serious talk with her because she kept saying she didn’t do anything wrong, but she was fired later that day on the orders of our director.

          1. Mike C.*

            It’s possible. Like I said it wasn’t a good response but the “common sense” thing I keep seeing is more about her decision to dress up rather than the reaction afterwards.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I can see where you’re coming from, Mike, but I’m not sure it fully applies in this situation. The employee’s reaction when she was spoken to about the costume reads to me much more like “I’m fully aware of the office culture but don’t like it” rather than “this was an honest mistake and I didn’t know better.”

      Plus, again, the points made above about how the employee coming in dressed up, realizing she’s the only one, and then calling it off from there — that would have been a more realistic reaction if it was an honest cultural misunderstanding. Realizing you’re dramatically at odds with everyone around you is a basic social skill, not a class-specific one.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Realizing you’re dramatically at odds with everyone around you is a basic social skill, not a class-specific one.

        This. I would totally understand and be sympathetic if all she did was wear a costume. But on discovering that she was wildly out of place, an ability to notice and abide by socially norms should kick in and lead to one trying to blend in.

    5. Purplesaurus*

      What I dislike is that she was fired by someone who presumably didn’t speak to her about this first. I can’t speculate about the harm she might have caused given that this occurred in front of clients, because it was certainly embarrassing at minimum.

      I agree in general that there are some truly nuanced white collar culture differences that are difficult to learn, but they are just as hard for a supervisor/manager to spell out. How could she have known this was wrong is just as fair a question as how was OP supposed to know to tell her this was wrong.

      3. sunny-dee*

        Easy, the costume was nowhere near their dress code. She was told about the dress code. Unless explicitly told that they are doing costumes, she should have known that she had to follow their explicitly-stated dress code.

    6. Madame X*

      I think the comments asserting that she was trying to get fired are ridiculous. It’s really easy as internet readers who have the benefit to see how this entire situation played out to think that she could have easily foreseen the consequences of her actions. There are a lot of norms that fall under “corporate culture” that a newbie can easily overlook or misinterpret. Which is why having a professional mentor is so helpful in helping young professionals navigate the corporate world. I also agree that firing her was an extreme reaction (she should have been reprimanded instead).

      That said.

      I don’t understand how someone with a degree in finance, who managed to get a job in finance (and maybe did an internship in this industry?) has not picked up ANY clues that trick or treating in a C-level meeting is unacceptable. It is apparent that displaying sound judgement is extremely valued in the finance industry (and lots of other similarly formal professions). So her multiple lapses in judgement and then insistence on justifying is likely why she was fired.

      It is

    7. Amtelope*

      Well, it’s not clear whether this did in fact do damage — an employee upsetting important clients could financially damage the company I work for, in ways that could potentially cause problems for other employees. But I agree that there may be issues of culture and social class in play here. I actually think reprinting the employee handbook would be a good idea, so that this rule is stated explicitly rather than having to be inferred.

    8. Jule*

      The company (and by extension other employees) absolutely could have been hurt by something like this occurring during a client meeting. I don’t think that’s difficult to grasp at all.

    9. a Gen X manager*

      A very interesting take on the post, Mike. I suspect that Boss and other C-levels believe that there was actually harm in the form of embarrassment and reputation risk. That level of executive in that kind of environment are typically extremely risk avoidant.

    10. Helpful*

      Disagree in this case, because:
      1) There was a dress code
      2) She’d seen how stuffy the office was for 5 months
      3) She didn’t just wear a costume, she behaved unprofessionally and tarnished her bosses’ reputations in front of clients

    11. Susanne*

      It IS common sense to know that if your dress code is so restrictive as to require a full suit everyday — and that’s a REALLY restrictive (and dare I say, stupid, but whatever) code in the year 2017 — that a full costume isn’t going to go over well. That this woman didn’t even think about “maybe I can pin a pumpkin pin on my lapel” but went straight full out to costume.

      This has nothing to do with blue collar versus white collar. Blue collar doesn’t mean stupid or lacking in common sense. I’m bothered by the assumption that blue collar people simply can’t figure out how to transition to a white collar world without explicit lessons and clear, unambiguous direction that “this is appropriate and this isn’t.” Plenty of people throughout the years — why, entire cultures! — managed to transition from one to the other without making these kinds of unfortunate missteps. We don’t do anyone any good by pretending that white collar culture is some kind of Alien Thing that is completely unknown and unknowable to blue collar folks.

      1. Mike C.*

        I’m the last person who would claim that blue collar means “stupid”. I said that they were significantly different and that there is a huge difference in what is considered “common sense”. Please don’t tell me that how I feel about my own life experiences is somehow wrong. I’ve lived it. You may have different experiences and those are just as legitimate but so are mine.

        Also, the history of cultural change is rife with conflict and people trying to work out how to do things. Have you never seen letters about how to politely use new technologies?

        1. Susanne*

          Mike, I too came from a blue collar background. I lived with extended family in a rowhouse in a major city in a rough neighborhood. The house I grew up in is 12 feet wide, and there is graffiti on the playground I used to play on. The breadwinner in our family was a steelworker who worked a second job as well. Please don’t assume I came from a white collar background, okay?

          Anyway, can you specify what aspects of the white collar professional world are so foreign and mystery-making to those raised in a blue collar environment? I’m being dead serious here.

          1. MsMorlowe*

            There was a long thread on them a while back on a specific post. Things like “your lunch hour isn’t sacrosanct anymore” and “act warm but polite with those above you, not deferential or cold” and “this shirt is appropriate, but this one isn’t” and “don’t always leave at 5pm on the dot” are unspoken white-collar rules.

            Here’s one such post

            1. sunny-dee*

              Except that those are very office dependent. I’ve worked in some places (like now) where those apply, and some where they don’t.

              1. Stardust*

                And culture-as-a-whole dependent! Just using two examples already mentioned, sacrosanct lunch hours and leaving at 5 pm or whenever on the dot are definitely a thing in most white collar workplaces in my country.

              2. MsMorlowe*

                I completely agree! That was just a long thread from this site that I thought had a good discussion on general differences.

            2. Kate 2*

              I agree with sunny-dee and Stardust, those really aren’t white-collar norms, those are individual office norms. Not to mention some of those are blue-collar norms too.

          3. Mike C.*

            Pretty much anything mentioned in Alfred Lubrano’s “Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams”.

      2. Myrin*

        Yeah, as someone from a poor family/a background that Americans/English-speakers (?) would call “blue collar”, I’m usually annoyed by this “but not white collar!” statement, mostly because it seems to have a tendency to be brought up with regards to really egregious behaviour: “She beat up her boss? Oh, she’s from a blue collar background, no one taught her otherwise!”; “He showed up to work in nothing but his pyjamas? Oh, his parents work in construction, how would he know otherwise?”; “She operated a meth lab from her company’s basement? Oh, she never learned that that’s not okay in this environment!”.

        It’s reasonable to bring this up when it’s about stuff like “I don’t know what counts as business casual and what as business formal. My family are farmers and can’t be of any help either!”. But usually I see the argument with regards to stuff that should make literally everyone I know, no matter their social or economic background, go “How on earth would anyone think this is okay?”. It very often carries a weird, kind of condescending whiff of blue collar people being maybe a bit uncivilised, maybe a bit dumb, living on a totally different astral plane from white collar workers, and somehow being completely incapable of drawing conclusions from their surroundings (that last part being especially important if you ask me).

        I’m a 26 year old doctoral candidate and I’ve literally encountered a difference between me and people from a higher class for the first time six weeks ago when I was at a week-long convention. Those differences were 1. a big interest in “officially” intellectual stuff like literature and theatre and 2. more experience with scholarships and the surrounding procedures because oftentimes their parents had already been scholarship holders with a specific institution. And that’s because we specifically talked about that stuff. Looking at us, at our manner and behaviour, you wouldn’t have been able to tell who came from which background at all.

        1. Snark*

          “It’s reasonable to bring this up when it’s about stuff like “I don’t know what counts as business casual and what as business formal. My family are farmers and can’t be of any help either!”.”

          And that’s 100% legitimate! Common sense isn’t instinctively knowing what business casual is, or intuitively knowing that a halloween costume is not appropriate for the financial services sector. It’s actively using observation and judgment to figure out what you don’t know, and acting on that information prudently and thoughtfully. It’s hearing terms like “business casual” and “business formal” and going “Wait, what the hell do those terms mean? I need to Google that/ask someone.” It’s walking into work and going “wait, nobody else is wearing a costume. Crap. I need to go buy some clothes at the mall down the street before anybody sees me.”

          1. oranges & lemons*

            Yeah, I think this point is why I tend to read the princess as naive/inexperienced/maybe a little privileged, since she was so unapologetic and doubled down on her behaviour. I think if it was more of a culture clash scenario, she would have been more embarrassed.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          I think it can really play into understanding what is business appropriate dress for a field, and help to give your students/interns/noobs some specific rules to follow. (Female TV lawyers, for example, are not a guide to acceptable dress for actual real-life female lawyers.) Especially as it can be hard to gauge “my outfit is out of sync for this field” vs “my outfit would be out of sync if I were 20 years older, or way more senior, but since I’m the only 20 year old is just fashion forward.” (Thinking of the JC Penney employee sent home for the work shorts she bought in Penney’s professional clothes for women dept.)

          That’s different from noticing norms of office behavior, like whether you EVER go into the client meetings to ask them questions.

        4. Mike C.*

          The whole point of bringing it up was not to say that “this is a blue collar thing” but to say “bubbles and blind spots exist, here’s one I personally faced”.

        5. Half-Caf Latte*

          Interesting observation. I feel like I’ve always seen it in regard to “how to order at a business dinner” or drinking at a business event. I shall have to pay attention for these egregious examples

    12. JeanB in NC*

      Really? You would have worn a Halloween costume to a “stuffy” financial services firm and interrupted a client meeting for candy? Without even asking?

      You are really bending over backwards to justify this on the part of the employee. She made a mistake, and she was fired. End of story.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Yep. I think this is a case of Mike being called out on his assumptions about other, less privileged, groups and then doubling down rather than reassessing. Which is kind of funny since he is usually in the opposite position.

    13. paul*

      A: She’d had 5 months in the office to observe the culture. She *knew* it was stuffy.

      B: I’ve never had a job–service, blue collar, white collar–where trick or treating [i]at work[/i] was OK. I wouldn’t be surprised that it was the trick or treat thing that pushed it over from “serious talk” to termination, and I honestly can’t really blame them after that.

      C: At this point it doesn’t matter; the C level fired her, it’s over. There’s nothing OP can do about that.

      D: None of this really relates to the question the OP was asking, which is how to handle a C level that’s in a tizzy.

      You can’t lay out every possible rule or norm for every workplace.

        1. fposte*

          It’s not remotely clear that that’s true. The person who wrote in says she was “asking everyone for candy” and gives no further information. Unless we were there, we’re really not going to know Tiana’s intentions.

      2. Mike C.*

        My entire post is about cultural bubbles and you respond with “I’ve never seen it so it never happens”?

        1. Snark*

          I don’t buy that cultural bubbles are so opaque as to make this an unforeseeable bad judgment call. Just don’t.

            2. Falling Diphthong*

              That’s right in my 3-6 month window for one’s inner “This sucks. This is stupid” monologue to break free, be said out loud, and lead to one’s abrupt departure and subsequent relief.

        2. paul*

          “cultural bubbles” isn’t a get out of jail free card for a series of mistakes, at least one of which was fairly major.

          I’m also not sure–at all–that this is an issue of a cultural bubble vs a being simply really major foul up on the employees part. Not every foul-up is explained or justified by saying “oh well, cultural mistake”.

          1. Snark*

            Yeah. Cultural bubbles explain wearing the costume to begin with. I can totally understand that, though I think a person with better judgment would probably have erred on the side of maybe not.

            Culture bubbles don’t explain keeping the costume on, barging into a meeting, asking clients and C-suiters for candy, and then doubling down when multiple superiors shit a brick about it.

            1. Susanne*

              I don’t buy that there’s some blue-collar cultural bubble that says wearing a costume for Halloween at work is the norm. If anything, blue-collar workers are going to be MORE likely to have to wear certain uniforms / types of dress, either as identifiers of their “status” so others can identify them as workers, or for safety reasons (such as in a factory where certain apparel may be prohibited). It’s white-collar workers who are more likely to have mastery of their environment such that they could wear a costume if they were so inclined.

              Let’s face it – some people are able to look around them and observe social cues and others aren’t. This has little to do with blue collar / white collar.

              1. Mike C.*

                Let’s face it – some people are able to look around them and observe social cues and others aren’t. This has little to do with blue collar / white collar.

                If this actually the case, then why do so many people feel justified in bragging about how they’d never make that mistake themselves? I know a good deal about math and I don’t brag about how dumb people who don’t are. There are several hundred of these sorts of comments. It’s a bit much.

                1. fposte*

                  Because for any mistake you make there will be tons of people bragging how they’d never make it. Sometimes it’s because it’s true and that that therefore they can’t understand how a mind that runs a different way works, and some of it’s for the same reason people follow up a crime report with “I’d never be [place] at [time]”–to feel like it couldn’t happen to us.

                2. Snark*

                  “If this actually the case, then why do so many people feel justified in bragging about how they’d never make that mistake themselves?”

                  It’s not a brag, it’s a statement of fact. Most people would never make this mistake. It’s not a normal, understandable, could-happen-to-anybody mistake, it’s remarkable because it’s a total outlier.

                3. Myrin*

                  I’m not sure I completely understand the question/confusion but here goes: Because they belong to the group of people who are “able to look around them and observe social cues” (or at least like to think of themselves as such, see fposte’s point above).

                  FWIW, I certainly haven’t read every single comment but I don’t see a lot of people bragging how they’d never do something like this – what I do see a lot of is people saying their workplace would’ve reacted the same way as OP’s, though.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            She might have really misapplied the advice “The only way out is forward.” I’d associate it with people who have always been shielded from the results of their actions, a particular sort of upper-middle-class youth, discovering that this time their parents aren’t down there with a net.

    14. mf*

      Agreed. She screwed up but she’s only 22 or 23 (most likely). Lots of people who are straight out of college don’t have a good grasp on workplace norms. It might’ve been worthwhile to give her a stern warning and give her a chance to do better in the future.

    15. FormerOP*

      “You don’t know what you don’t know” I was just saying this the other day! Words to live by. I suspect that some of the commentariat thinks that it is completely reasonable for a fresh grad 5 months into a job to get the culture 100% and not wear a costume to work and some of the commentariat thinks that it is reasonable for a fresh grad 5 months into a job to misread a situation and end up on AAM.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I think what people are pushing back on is how attuned you should be to noticing “Oops, here’s something I didn’t know I didn’t know.” That wearing the costume could be an understandable mistake, but once she arrived at work there were flashing signals that she needed to course correct. Not make sure the clients saw her outfit by popping into the meeting. Not argue that she was single-handedly unstuffying the firm in her role as junior employee.

        2. fposte*

          Yeah, I’m trying to formulate a conceptual rule that would equip people to make calls about behavior and dress. I’m not there yet, but it’s boiling down to “Don’t be a pioneer in a direction away from quiet professionalism.” IOW, embrace the stuffy.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            “Don’t be a pioneer in a direction away from quiet professionalism.”

            I love this.

          3. Turtle Candle*

            Yeah, “embrace the stuffy” is about as good as I can get. I don’t actually work for a particularly stuffy workplace, but a lot of the things that have created cringe-inducing ‘no don’t do that if you want to move up’ have been things that would be very difficult to foresee enough to put in an employee handbook.

            I mean, things like:

            – Don’t put a Lara Croft cleavage shot as your desktop background
            – While Halloween costumes are fine at our workplace, you shouldn’t dress up as “Monica Lewinski in the stained blue dress”
            – When you’re told that you can have some of the leftover bagels from the client meeting, don’t swipe a cream-cheese-laden bagel and hide it so that you can say “hey it wasn’t eaten, so technically it’s left over”
            – Don’t use a racially charged example in your sample database for customer sales

            Because, I mean, none of those things were in the Do Not section of the employee handbook, because… we assumed people would know. But people didn’t know (or, at least as likely, didn’t care).

            I suspect that “of course none of those things were in the employee handbook because any sensible person should know not to do X” is the likely reply. But… I mean, that’s sort of petitio principii. It’s assuming that everyone should know that Lara Croft cleavage shots are a no-go but not that they know that that trick-or-treating with clients are a no-go. Industry by industry, we have to assume that some things are known as not appropriate; if we don’t, the employee handbook would have to be five thousand pages long and include things like “don’t come to work wearing nothing but body glitter.” The question is where to draw the line. And I think in finance, it’s fairly clear from comments that this was well past the line.

        3. paul*

          Exactly.

          The Employee didn’t make one mistake; they made a significant series of mistakes, someo f which were pretty serious.

          And really, being able to incorporate cultural norms and cues is important.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I suspect that some of the commentariat thinks that it is completely reasonable for a fresh grad 5 months into a job to get the culture 100% and not wear a costume to work

        If you’ve got a written dress code (and a strict one at that) you don’t have to get into the culture 100% to understand that things that are written down need to be followed. Five months is long enough to see that people don’t dress down on Fridays, or the day before a holiday, or their birthdays, and to glean from this experience that the dress code is followed, as written, every day. It’s the unwritten things that get you. This isn’t one of them.

    16. Roscoe*

      I agree. I mean, I’ll be honest, in just about every job I’ve had since I graduated, some people dressed up. Now in fairness, a lot of that time was as a teacher. But even in the private sector jobs I’ve had, dressing up was done. Now again, I get the fact that maybe if she knew she was having a meeting with C-suite people than maybe she should have asked. But seriously, at my job (which I’ve been at for years) I would have no problem meeting with my CEO in my halloween costume.

      Now, as others have pointed out, its very possible that finance is its own separate level of stuffy. But the woman was there 4 months. Immediate termination seems strong to me.

    17. Snark*

      Actually, yes, these are things one can, and should, absorb just by being there, regardless of one’s background or whatever other various and sundry justifications might exist. Just being a reasonably aware person who observes, understands, and processes the features of the world around them and then acts in a prudent, considered fashion would prevent this. If someone needs to be told this, the problem is not that nobody told them unwritten rules, it’s that they’re seriously deficient in judgment and basic social skills – they lack common sense, in other words.

      And no, I’ve never had “close calls” like this. If I were in an office where everybody, regardless of the day, was in suits, where there was no discussion of costumes, where the overall vibe was stuffy and conservative, I’d err on the side of wearing my princess dress after work. I wouldn’t take the chance, even if I was not exactly sure or didn’t have specific guidance.

      I’m also flabbergasted that you think no harm was done. She acted a fool in a high-level meeting with clients and C-suite executives. You don’t think that would make a conservative, stuffy client go “wait, what the hell kind of circus am I doing business with?” You don’t think that could have, endangered whatever deal or transaction was at issue? You don’t think that wrongfooted everybody there? You don’t think the CFO was a little off his game because he wanted to go crawl in a hole from embarrassment? If none of that occurred to you, well….that’s “how things work.”

      1. Snark*

        Here’s a personal example. I lived in India for a year and a half. When I got there, nobody actually told me that wearing shoes into a temple was extremely, extremely forbidden. I grew up atheist in a culture where shoes are worn into churches, and I was a 19 year old who’d never traveled anywhere but western Europe.

        But.

        When I saw people taking off their shoes at the gates of the temple, I watched them do it, I reasoned they were probably doing so because no shoes allowed, I took mine off, and I walked in. I didn’t leave them on and then wipe my feet on the hangings. I didn’t keep wearing them after noticing nobody else was. I didn’t go up to the priest and ask him to bless my shoes. Common sense, my dude.

        1. Sue Wilson*

          The idea that cultural norms are 100% observable before you stumble into breaking them is frankly ridiculous considering that most norms have cultural assumptions built in that can give an a completely different understanding of the underlying point if you don’t know those assumptions. And it’s even more ridiculous for things for which there are varying levels of cultural adherence even in homogeneous strict cultures and on cultural days the purpose of which is breaking cultural norms. Like, come on.

          If you’re saying cautiousness is common sense, then you’re running into a cultural understanding of prudence right there.

          2. Stardust*

            I’m pretty sure snark isn’t talking about anything being 100% observable, just that there are some things that are observable. As is the case in this letter–the employee had clearly observed her workplace’s general attitude towards things (“stuffy”), which could have reasonably led her to conclude that Halloween costumes are Not Done. But let’s say she’s a bit naive and very into the Halloween spirit–she still could have observed upon arrival that literally no one else is in a costume and that she would stick out like a sore thumb and then act accordingly. There are comments here saying that she couldn’t possibly have known not to wear a costume after “only” being there five months when this is something she should have figured out by her first week on the job even if she had never stepped a foot on planet earth before because it’s so obvious and black-and-white in this particular firm.

            1. Snark*

              Precisely. Even if not 100% observable, there was enough for a reasonable and prudent person to go on here.

            2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              Exactly.

              And this isn’t someone who just had cat ears perched on their head while wearing head-to-toe black. She was, presumably, in a BALL GOWN. The former is enough to make you briefly embarrassed. The latter would cause mortal embarrassment in anyone who is decently observable. And considering her comment about it being “stuff”, she definitely fits into the latter.

          3. Snark*

            “The idea that cultural norms are 100% observable before you stumble into breaking them is frankly ridiculous considering that most norms have cultural assumptions built in that can give an a completely different understanding of the underlying point if you don’t know those assumptions.”

            Can you make this point a little more concrete? Because I have only the barest idea what you’re talking about here. No, cultural norms are not 100% observable. I had no idea about the Vedic notions of cleanliness that inform doffing one’s shoes. But I could see the broad outlines of a norm at work, and I erred on the side of conformance rather than risking doing my own thing. In this case, Princess Tiana could have noticed that nobody else was wearing costumes and responded appropriately (e.g. getting the hell out and changing) rather than doubling and tripling down on the error.

            “And it’s even more ridiculous for things for which there are varying levels of cultural adherence even in homogeneous strict cultures and on cultural days the purpose of which is breaking cultural norms. Like, come on.”

            Come on yourself. Even in a broader cultural context of varying adherence to professional dresscode and Halloween’s status as a day where some workplaces allow breaking cultural norms for fin, someone should be expected to get a goddamn clue that very formal workplace where they’ve been for almost half a year isn’t the place to dress up as a Disney Princess unless it’s been made very clear that that’s an option to them. Err on the side of quiet professionalism, as noted elsewhere, and don’t try to gumption it up.

            1. Snark*

              And! There’s a lot of norms that are tricky and hard to notice. What people are wearing or not wearing is not one of them. Whatever else might be less than intuitive about workplace culture, it’s really, really friggin’ obvious when you’re the only person dressed up for Halloween.

          4. Robin Sparkles*

            Mike I think you are providing a valid point of view to a situation where it doesn’t apply. In this case- she had 5 months to observe social norms and culture. The costume isn’t the offense here- I can forgive that because it could happen to someone new to the office. It was the way she behaved in a client meeting- again after 5 months. Now should she have been fired? Maybe – maybe not- I don’t know how she behaved exactly and I don’t have more details to know how bad it was. But her background doesn’t really matter in this situation because it has nothing to do with her upbringing and everything to do with her not behaving professionally in an environment where she had enough time to grasp professional norms.

    19. Anonymouse*

      Respectfully, I disagree.

      I’m also one of those who made the class jump (from below the poverty-line trailer to suburbia house, baby!), and if anything, this made me even *more* attuned to cultural differences and an almost paranoid, “Is there something I’m missing? Is this a thing everyone knows but me?”.

      If this had been her first week, or even her first month, I’d be more sympathetic. But the letter-writer says that she had been there for five months with no (serious) problems, which means that she would have had more opportunities to have picked up on the culture and apparently was for the most part! Which makes this even more bizarre to me. This isn’t, “We’ve been seeing some issues with her not getting workplace norms, and now this” sort of situation.

      And as for this mistake not being “harmful”, it very well could have been. What if the firm had lost the client? If this had been a new client meeting, then I imagine they would have strongly considered going with another client. This sort of thing could really hurt a firm’s reputation.

      While I agree that there are a lot of scenarios where we may expect people to know things that they have no way of knowing (being from a different background), I don’t think this is one of them.

    20. Observer*

      Color me skeptical.

      I know many blue collar workers. I can;t imagine any of them who would think that dressing up in a place with a clearly spelled out strict dress code makes any sense at all. But beyond that I can’t think of any environment where dressing up at a meeting with important clients would fly, and asking them for candy, even on Halloween would be a total non-starter.

      Also, I can’t think of any blue collar environment where new employees think that they can force the office to change by doing their thing.

    21. Kate 2*

      I’ve said it before, making the jump, as I have, as you have, from blue to white collar is actually not that hard. All you need is common sense, awareness, and caution. Are the people around you using slang? No? Don’t use slang. Are the people around you dressing up for Halloween? No? Don’t dress up!

      I am honestly trying to think of ANY “unwritten rules” that couldn’t be handled with the three things I mention above, and I can’t think of a single one. The white collar workplace isn’t some mysterious fraternity with a secret handshake. It’s basically the same as a blue collar one. You show up on time, you do your job, if you have doubts or questions, look to your coworkers, ask your manager. Easy.

    22. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Mike C., your point would be 100% accurate for dozens (hundreds?) of circumstances addressed on AAM. I don’t believe this is one of them. I don’t see believe this situation was due to a lack of knowledge around cultural norms. Partly, this is because of the extreme violation (in the sociological sense) of a key norm that the employee had followed for five months (a severe dress code with zero variations). Another part is the sheer number of cultural violations listed (dress code in general, the costume specifically, trick-or-treating in any meeting, how to act in front of senior executives, how to act in front of clients). The major part, though, is her lack of remorse and admitted effort to change a “stuffy” culture. The last part indicates to me that no matter her background, she had gained sufficient cultural knowledge and intentionally–and without regret–went against the norms of this office. I’m not saying that justifies a firing (and boy, I would hate to work in that office), but this was a willful and knowledgeable act.

  56. Julius Pepperwood*

    For #1 – I read the director’s insistent questioning as the possibility that the LW is actually kind of in trouble for not somehow preventing this. When the director asks repeatedly what the employee was thinking, I think what she is really asking is how did you permit this to happen? I would give them back some language that shows that you will make sure it does not happen again.

    I should say that I don’t think there was anything the LW should have done in retrospect, since this was not on the radar, but now that it is a possibility, in a culture this restrictive, I’d be sure to mention it in future to all new hires.

  57. Shadow*

    1. Please tell me her costume didn’t include blackface or some other racially offensive aspect.

    1. J.B.*

      Since I believe that Michonne is African American and I know that Tiana is, I’m guessing the employee is also. And am really wondering about the old boys club.

      1. Snark*

        It’s not inconceivable, but imagine a young Caucasian woman, or bro, doing this. I can’t imagine them being treated much differently, honestly. Old boys’ clubs are a thing, but this is one of those situations where the act is sufficient explanation for the firing.

      2. Kelly L.*

        No, but if a white person dresses as one of those characters, they shouldn’t darken their skin tone with makeup to do it. They should just roll with their own natural skin tone.

    3. McWhadden*

      Hopefully, the LW would have known to mention that.

      Given her other option was Michonne I tend to think the employee actually is African American. Both Tiana and Michonne are awesome characters, individually, who anyone from any race may want to dress up as. But they are so different that if those are the two options for a person it makes me think letter writer was AA.

  58. Q*

    I can’t help but think #1 might have race factored into it somehow…both those costumes are pretty famously black women, so my assumption is that the fired worker is, too.

    Granted, I don’t work in financial services, I’m young, and her joke was pretty embarrassing, but this seems like an overreaction to me. The situation hasn’t even been addressed after she’s been fired, apparently. This just seems like it’s about more than the costume, more than a really embarrassing joke, even if they don’t realize it. Would it have been more laugh-off-able if it was a white woman, or a man?

    1. Stardust*

      Given how basically everyone in this thread who has experience with working in finance has reacted to this letter so far, I’d say “quite clearly not”.

        1. paul*

          I know bupkiss about finance, but our organization can be kind of laid back and even we wouldn’t be OK with the employees action–IDK if she’d have been fired, but she’d have certainly gotten a pretty strong talking to about what is/isn’t appropriate at least.

        2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          While this is true, and certainly informs what is and is not considered professional for the industry (I’m sure dissertations have been written on the subject), I’m very confident that it wouldn’t be laugh-off-able in any case. Maybe if important clients weren’t involved it could have been, but client relationships are taken very seriously, and embarrassing executives in front of clients is easily a fireable offense.

          1. LBK*

            Yeah, I think there definitely are ways in which finance is a worse place for POC than for white people, but I don’t think this particular scenario is one of them.

            1. LBK*

              Oh – and I meant to say that I particularly agree with the client part. It would be one think to look like an idiot internally, but you don’t embarrass your CEO in front of clients like that. You just don’t.

          2. Decima Dewey*

            The thought occurs that the client insisted Tiana be fired or the firm would take its business elsewhere.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      Someone–anyone–wearing a costume to a C-level meeting with clients, asking for candy, and then not admitting they were wrong when they’re clearly told they were wrong by their boss is a huge deal. Gender, race and ethnicity have nothing to do with it. One could argue that the industry has something to do with it, but I’ve seen enough comments here to know that it’s not just because it’s the finance industry. Seems pretty well spread across different industries.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      I don’t work in financial services, but I’m not surprised she was fired. It was poor judgement on top of poor judgement. Indiscretion on top of indiscretion. It was so bad I wondered if she was having a mental break or was looking to get fired in a blaze of glory type situation. I also suspected she was AA based on the costume choices, but I think it’s irrelevant.

      I’m AA and I alwasy get upset when people are quick to dismiss racism as a factor when it might exist because it’s more convenient for them, but this doesn’t appear to be one of those cases.

    4. LBK*

      I do work in finance and I’m almost positive this would’ve been grounds for termination. You don’t screw around in a meeting with C-suites and clients like that. It arguably conveys that you’re not taking the meeting seriously, and as a client who potentially has millions of dollars entrusted to a company, I want to know that money is in good hands that won’t take my finances lightly.

  59. High Score!*

    Allison, I think you were too hard on bug lady. Replace lady bug with cockroach. Bugs don’t belong in offices. If someone did that here, I would report it and request an exterminator.

    1. LBK*

      Logical or not, ladybugs are generally considered a more “acceptable” bug, so I think Alison’s point is that someone’s more likely to interpret it as a joke if you freak out over a ladybug than if you were freaking out over a cockroach. I think the OP just needs to explain it the way she explained it in the letter – that even though most people don’t care about ladybugs, they do still bother her, so please keep them away.

  61. Nugget*

    Sounds to me like she dodged a bullet, and that maybe subconsciously she did it intentionally to get out of what sounds like a really unpleasant work environment. Maybe it’s the Millennial in me but working in a place that uptight sounds like a total nightmare. If wearing a costume wasn’t acceptable the director could have simply asked the OP to have a talk with her, but to take it immediately to termination, to speak about it as “the most embarrassing moment in her life” speaks to a toxic, outdated and extremely high-strung culture, IMO. My guess is that this place isn’t doing quite as well as they did in the 80s?

    1. High Score!*

      As others have said, it was probably the begging for treats rather than the costume that was the issue. And the director maybe concerned about the judgement of the person who hired her.

      1. Nugget*

        Eh, it sounded to me like maybe she cracked a joke when she got in the room and asked for candy, perhaps to ease the tension she must have felt. I seriously doubt she actually expected people at a meeting to have candy in their pockets to share with her, and I also doubt it amounted to “begging.” Also, the director specifically asked that the dress code policy be re-circulated so it seems the costume was the real nail in the coffin.

    2. Snark*

      Don’t think for a second that this would have flown in a less stuffy workplace culture. If one of my direct reports barged into a client meeting in a costume, it would probably have ended the same way for them – and I’m nowhere near stuffy and uptight. It wouldn’t be a problem if someone arrived at work, went oh god I totally misjudged this, and said, “hey snark, I’m so sorry, I thought costumes were a thing and I need to go home and change,” but if they doubled down like this? I’d be leaning more towards firing than not. And I’m wearing a sweater, pants from an outdoor company, and chukka boots today.

      1. Kyrielle*

        At my last job, we celebrated Halloween every year, with people in costume or not as they preferred. (And some of them were gory, and some were tacky, and it was just not remotely dignified or conservative.) But we seldom had clients on site, and I’m pretty sure we’d have moved the celebration by a day if we’d ever had a client visit scheduled on Halloween.

        And no one would ever have thought of, even jokingly, trick-or-treating a meeting – let alone one involving director-level personnel (never mind C-suite or clients).

        What really cements it for me as being worse than a series of horrible misjudgements, is the doubling-down and arguing with her manager about it. There’s…really no coming back from that. (I don’t know if the directive to fire her was made with that knowledge, though.)

      2. Brandy*

        Yes I work for a pretty casual office, but we still have to appease the client and this easily could cause a firing in my office. Most important rule here, DO NOT OFFEND THE CLIENT.

      3. Anonymeece*

        I work in academia and we’re pretty laidback. There are professors with multi-colored green and blue and pink hair who wear jeans everyday and we have a Halloween costume party every year, but if I had barged into a meeting with the Chancellor and the Board and the President of my college in full costume? I would have been fired in a heartbeat.

        Snark is right – even in a less uptight environment, this is a huge no-no.

        And honestly, even if, as some of the people said, she was making a joke to defuse the tension, the immediate response there should have been “Oh, I am so sorry,” while immediately leaving the room, not having to be *asked* to leave.

  62. Susanne*

    The real shame of the situation with the Halloween-dressing is that one could have easily injected some Halloween spirit into a formal dress outfit without violating the dress code — and it might have been something that clients benignly smiled at. For example, one could wear little pumpkin dangling earrings, or an orange scarf with pumpkins. Skulls were popular / fashionable a few years back; certainly one could wear a scarf with subtle skulls (yes, they exist!) as part of a business suit. Or one could wear a pumpkin or similar brooch or pin on a suit lapel. All of these would have been ways of having a little fun and flair, but still staying well within the bounds of a corporate dress code. It’s really no different from wearing, say, a scarf with hearts on it or all-pink or all-red on Valentine’s Day.

    Though I have to say, do these financial services firms not understand that they are sooooo behind the times in their dress code? The real world of business (by which I mean the people who actually make goods/services, not just those who move the money around) seems to have gone to business casual a loooong time ago. I was a consultant and called upon CEO’s regularly and I can count the times we’d have to wear corporate business dress on one hand. It’s just so dated, really, to be in that full business garb. I get that no one wants the guy handling their money to be in jeans and a ripped t-shirt, but smart, polished business casual really seems to be the marker for professionalism these days.

    1. nnn*

      I have one of those scarfs with subtle skulls, and I wore it when meeting the CEO because our meeting happened to be on Halloween. (No dress code and a profession with a reputation for eccentricity).

      No one even noticed – it just looks like an abstract pattern when knotted around one’s neck.

  63. Allison*

    #1 I’m all for most workplaces being fun and casual, but finance firms, law firms, accounting firms, management strategy firms, etc. are conservative when it comes to appearance for a very good reason – people and/or businesses are trusting you with things that matter a great deal to them, they need to be able to trust your judgment and your professionalism. Even “fun” offices have to button up sometimes. My first job let people wear jeans on Fridays but if important people were coming to the office, even on a Friday, we all had to look our best. If you know important people are going to be in the office on a certain day, even if that day is Halloween, you follow the dress code to a T, especially if you’re going to be in that meeting.

    Now, I’m also a huge fan of Halloween, and so far everywhere I’ve worked has at least allowed costumes, some placed have even strongly encouraged them. But if I were working in a conservative firm, you bet your booties I would either hold off and see what people wear on Halloween, or ask around to my peers and my boss to see if costumes are done or not done. And if my office had a dress code, I’d assume that code was in effect on Halloween and my costume should follow it.

    Furthermore, if she did know the office was stuffy and wanted to bring some fun to the place on Halloween, that was a bad idea. That’s a bad idea when you’re five months into any job, let alone your first job.

    I say all this being five years into my career, and I’ll admit I made some mistakes in my first job. But even in that job, I probably wouldn’t have bothered with a costume if my team wasn’t doing a theme together.

    I don’t think there needed to be an addemdum in the manual, but maybe the company could circulate an email or memo to new employees outlining the culture re:Halloween somewhere around late October, and maybe again around Christmastime. It could also provide info on whether the office has a party, whether workspace decorations are allowed (and to what degree, if they are), whether there’s trick-or-treating and whether people are permitted to leave early, stuff like that. As more and more companies get festive around holidays like Halloween, it could be helpful (but shouldn’t be necessary) to spell out that you’re not one of those companies.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I recall a discussion about how the new accountant was pretty uptight and anal retentive about things, though granted he was fixing the mess left by the previous, laidback and casual, accountant. And people pointing out that there might be some correlation here. Finance is a field where you don’t want people to say “Eh, who knows where that went?”

  64. imaskingamanager*

    Bad judgment is bad judgment. After five months on the job, to exhibit this kind of bad judgment–and to rationalize it the way she did—would give me a great deal of concern about how she might handle other situations with clients. Her company has lost trust in her judgment, plain and simple. It is something that could have easily been avoided if she had asked a simple question.

    Its a tough lesson, but hopefully one that she can learn from and move on from.

  65. NobodyYouKnow*

    I think “contact” had a bit of a vogue when there were suddenly so many different means of communication, and it gave the recipient some ability to determine what means was appropriate. (I.e., if you know this person doesn’t actually pick up their phone, go ahead and send an email).

    But when I was managing people — including several who were a little phone-averse — I started to use “reach out,” rather than “contact” – somehow, I think “contact” had taken on the implication that a single, one-sided attempt, by any means (email, letter, voicemail message) will satisfy the request, whereas “reach out” means “actually find this person by some appropriate means – which I trust you to select on your own — and communicate with them, until the goal of the communication is accomplished.”

    1. Karo*

      Interesting, I use those in the exact opposite way. Contact means I’ve actually made contact – I’ve spoken to them, or emailed with them, where reach out just means that I emailed them but haven’t heard back yet.

    2. LBK*

      I agree with this completely – “contact” means poking them, “reach out” means poking them until you get an answer.

  66. Roscoe*

    For #2 I think it really depends how close it actually was to your workspace. I have an office plant around 10-15 feet from my desk. Some people would say its in my work space, but I don’t think I can really claim “ownership” of that and tell others to not put things there. If it was like 2 feet, it may be a bit different. But the term “near my desk” is kind of vague.

    Regardless, this seems like an extreme over reaction (especially to go around saying you killed it) for something you probably would never see.

  67. Granny K*

    #1: Different companies, different cultures. I worked for a software company and the Marketing VP LOVED Halloween. I mean really loved it. So much that he bought us all costume accessories for the company costume party to go as a group costume. (We had just done a brand change, so we went as the: Brand Police. ) There was also an offsite to go to a Pirate-themed haunted house, which he also paid for all the tickets. And before you ask, that company was acquired by a large corporation, so alas, they aren’t around anymore.

  68. Anon, Anon, Anon*

    I am wondering if this was a manic episode on her part. The OP states that she had not displayed any hint of this type of behavior prior, so I wonder if this was part of a medical issue. Just guessing.

  69. Sweet Pea*

    #1. Regardless of the employee getting fired, I’m going to imagine the director is shocked how Tiana made it past the front desk and through the office to appear at the meeting in costume. Perhaps the repeated questioning is actually speculation how no one noticed it and didn’t shut it down earlier?

    1. Arils*

      I WAS JUST WRITING THIS!!!!!!!

      No one thought to stop her? Yank her into the nearest empty room? “Our most junior employee just walked by and all I could do was stare, wide-eyed in horror!”

  70. cobweb collector*

    LW#1

    > one of my employees came to work dressed as Princess Tiana.

    red flag

    > came into the room in her full costume, asking everyone to give her candy,

    red flag

    > wanted to bring fun to our “stuffy” office.

    red flag

    > There were no red flags from her at any time

    There were three red flags just on that one day. I wonder how many others you missed.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Like the guy who made it through his probation period and then went straight to 9/11 jokes to clients–sometimes people really do just pull out all the stops, and spend one special day blazing across the office like a comet.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I mean, I do think it’s a lot more likely if you’ve been there under a year, especially under six months. Three to five months seems about the right time for a bunch of inner dialogue “Man, you people are so inhibited and blah” to become suddenly manifest.

    4. Lissa*

      This seems like an intentional misreading of LW #1 who was saying she hadn’t seen red flag behavior from Tiana UNTIL the outfit. I don’t know how you got LW ignoring that this is an issue from the letter – from the rest of the context it seems pretty clear she is aware it was not good.

  71. FD*

    #1- I think your boss keeps asking because your boss hasn’t received an answer to the question s/he really wants answered.

    I think what you’re really hearing from your boss is: Your employee, who is ultimately my responsibility through you, really embarrassed the company. I’m getting major heat for it. I need to tell my higher-ups what happened and how we’re going to prevent it in the future.

    I think you’d be better off addressing this in the big picture. Maybe something like, “Boss, I’m mortified too at the pressure you’re getting over this. I want you to understand that I take employee performance seriously, and that if I had any inkling of this beforehand, I’d have headed it off.

    “If you feel it would help, politically, to redo all our materials to discuss Halloween attire, of course, I’m happy to do it. However, I think this is such a bizarre event that I think it’s unlikely to ever happen again, and I’d hate for the company to pay for reprinting everything because of it.

    “What I can do is make a point to have a formal discussion around dress code with every new employee going forward, and particularly discuss how our clients expect us to present ourselves. Would that help?”

    3. Anon attorney*

      I think this is a great script.

      I’m not wholly surprised there is blowback on the OP, fairly or unfairly, and I think she needs to get out in front of that. I supervise junior employees and if one of them crashed a big client meeting, let alone in costume, I am sure questions would be asked about why the hell I hadn’t intercepted them in the hallway, never mind what they’d been told at employee orientation. It’s not that I think OP should necessarily have seen this coming. Sometimes someone goes randomly off piste without warning and I don’t think it’s always possible to foresee that but while the incident is in progress it’s not unreasonable that senior staff (not just OP) be expected to head it off. I can’t understand how she even made it as far as the conference room. Perhaps you weren’t there OP and fair enough if not but I think your director is looking for reassurance that you can handle this type of situation, rather than expecting you to understand Tiana’s motivations.

  72. CleverGirl*

    #1: I think this is part of what it wrong with Corporate America. The obsession with being “professional” when half the time all “professional” means is a bunch of people “playing house” and trying to show how grown up they are.

    I *get* that it wasn’t professional, but why can’t we realize/admit that employees are also humans with personalities and likes and interests, and we don’t always have to keep those aspects separate from “the job”. What’s so wrong with dressing up for Halloween? Is that job really so important that wearing a costume is such an insult to everyone? I wouldn’t wear a costume to a funeral or a wedding (unless it was a costume wedding!) but it does feel a bit stuffy to have such an extreme reaction like this.

    1. anyone out there but me*

      Dressing up for Halloween isn’t necessarily wrong, but it does depend on the business and their culture in general. The office in question here is a financial firm. They are traditionally stuffy because people tend to not want to trust their wealth to someone dressed up as Snoopy, even if it is Halloween. Financial firms, medical offices (that are not pediatrics), legal firms….. none of those are places where I would view it acceptable to be in costume. I’m older, probably considered old-fashioned by many, but I think these are traditionally types of businesses where it would not be appropriate.

      1. Emi.*

        Yeah, like, I actually do want you to keep your creative, whimsical, fun-loving personality out of my money.

    2. Snark*

      You’re not wrong, but what difference does it make? The fact that I don’t want to walk uphill doesn’t mean the mountain erodes to fit my preference.

      1. CleverGirl*

        The difference being it’s not a mountain making these decisions/rules, it’s another human being. A mountain is an actual physical object whereas “professional” rules like wearing suits and pretending like you don’t care about holidays are subjective and always changing, and don’t actually have any basis in reality; it’s all about perception, and people’s ideas about what “professional” means.

        That being said, I can understand how ignoring holidays *is* professional, since not everyone celebrates every holiday, so it’s probably a good idea not to push holidays on your clients. I still think there’s a lot wrong with corporate America, though.

        1. Snark*

          Perception or not, if you’re an entry-level person, and you don’t have the judgement, standing, or experience to flout it without penalty – so it may as well be a billion tons of stone, feel me? You can disagree, and you can feel strongly that work is an opportunity to express your personal enthusiasms and interests, but those conventions are reality insofar as flouting them will get you fired on the spot.

          1. Snark*

            And, frankly, your basic premise strikes me as pretty off base. Yes, there are certain cultural norms around professionalism and propriety in various situations. And most norms are fairly arbitrary, in any and every culture. The fact that individuals have enthusiasms and interests doesn’t mean that the culture at large necessarily agrees that those enthusiasms need to be expressed in every situation. If you’re in an industry that embraces highly conservative norms, and you’re the kind of person who feels compelled to enthusiastically and visibly celebrate Halloween, either you don’t work in that industry or you make the compromise. It’s not on the industry to change because you really, really love Disney princesses.

        2. CityMouse*

          You can fight that fight when you are the boss, though. Taking a stand like that as a newbie is a bad idea.

        3. Falling Diphthong*

          The flip side of “I don’t want to spend Saturday away from my family, bonding with my coworkers on a 5K run” is “Work doesn’t care that I like to spend Saturday watching reruns of Firefly, and would like to express this side of my personality in my dress/client presentations.”

        4. Shadow*

          this is sort of a pointless argument. All appearance standards are subject to wide discretion. And if you’re saying that employers should just accept whatever employees feel is professional you’re missing the point. Employers get to decide what the standard is at work

    3. Colette*

      Has anyone say dressing up for Halloween was wrong? If you like it and you’re in an appropriate environment, go for it.

      In this case, dressing up might have been survivable. Interrupting a meeting, asking for candy, and then saying that that was OK because the office was too stuffy was not.

    4. Yorick*

      Norms are useful because they allow us to know how to act in given situations, and to understand other people’s actions. There’s a reason that all cultures have them.

      Dressing up for Halloween at work IS a professional norm at offices where that’s done. 5 months in is plenty of time to understand whether it would be acceptable, and most people would default to not dressing up if they were unsure.

    5. LBK*

      On a general level, you’re right, but if you work for a company that’s decided these are what their standards are, you kinda have to play by their rules, stupid and arbitrary as they may be.

      I do think our culture as a whole has taken dramatic steps towards relaxing dress codes (I work in finance, a notoriously stuffy industry, and over the last few years our dress code has gone from suits to business casual to jeans only on Fridays to jeans all the time). But if you don’t work for a company that’s on board with that, is it really the hill you want to die on? Is it really that painful to you to not be able to wear a costume one day of the year?

      The argument that wearing what you want isn’t a big deal goes both ways – if clothes shouldn’t matter that much, then it shouldn’t matter to you that much that you don’t get to wear what you want since, after all, they are just clothes.

      1. Lissa*

        Yes, IMO if you are somebody who really feels that this type of thing is uncomfortable and you would rather work in an environment where you can dress up and let your personality show, there are environments where that happens. But by the same token, I think there are also people whose genuine preferences ARE for a more “stuffy” “professional” environment where dressing up is a no and personality is flattened at work, and they aren’t wrong either.

        1. LBK*

          Great point – I think for people who like to draw a bright line between their work persona and home persona, an environment like this is exactly what they want. I still think rigidly formal dress codes like requiring suits for people that aren’t customer-facing are a little silly, but you can strike a nice balance like jeans and button downs that’s more relaxed but still standardized.

    7. Temperance*

      There is such a huge difference between showing your personality at work and asking clients and firm management for candy while in costume, FFS.

      Yes, your job should be “so important” that, if you work in a notoriously conservative industry, you don’t wear a costume.

    8. Louise*

      Yeah I dk I think that asking a fellow adult human for candy is not appropriate in any situation unless they literally have a bowl of candy in front of them. It’s such a strange and awkward thing to do, and I know if I was in a meeting and someone asked me for candy, I would feel so so so uncomfortable that it would seriously throw me off. Maybe that’s just me, but just feels just so wildly out of social norms in ANY context. Like even at a Halloween party I would be uncomfortable if an adult stranger came up to me and tried to trick-or-treat! And I LOVE Halloween!

  73. anyone out there but me*

    #1 – I worked for a boss who loved to take any small or weird thing and make it an issue for the employee manual. Somebody came in 3 minutes late? Re-write the attendance/tardy policy. Someone heated up broccoli in the microwave? Write a microwave usage policy. New employee joked about bringing her dog to work with her? We suddenly needed a “no pets allowed” policy.

    It drove me crazy. It was her way of not addressing her employees personally. She wanted a policy to point to so she would not have to counsel or discipline an employee herself, or depend on a manager to do it (her lack of trust issues and delegation to her managers is a whole ‘nother story).

    Just some insight and empathy on the policy thing from someone who has been there, done that.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      #1 – I worked for a boss who loved to take any small or weird thing and make it an issue for the employee manual. Somebody came in 3 minutes late? Re-write the attendance/tardy policy.

      I can just imagine…

      10.01 Attendance – Employees are expected to be in the office at 8:00 am.
      10.012 – Employees are not allowed to be 3 minutes late. (added 1/15/16)
      10.013 – Employees are not allowed to be 4 minutes late. (added 1/29/16)
      10.014 – Employees are not allowed to be 11 minutes late. (added 2/15/16)
      10.0145 – Even if traffic was really bad. (added 3/1/16)

  74. palomar*

    No. What they’re saying is that often in a white-dominated workspace, employees of color are fired for not being a “culture fit” when the same transgressions by white employees would garner a stern reprimand but not a job loss.

  75. Sara without an H*

    Re #3: I, too, find “reach out” for “contact” mildly irritating. I don’t use it myself, but I also don’t quarrel with anyone who does. Certain expressions come into vogue for no particular reason, and go out of style on the same principle. Most of the slang I heard growing up would provoke snickers if I tried to use it now.

  76. Life*

    “And don’t tell your coworker that you’re killing bugs he’s trying to save. When he’s clearly trying to save a creature’s life, that’s a really unkind thing to say, even if you were annoyed with his actions… (That said, he’s not likely to entrust you with a bug in need of a safe home again so this probably is a non-issue.)”

    I know there are a lot of comments about invasive/swarming etc. ladybugs, and I know not everyone likes bugs, but I just want to say… Alison, thank you. This is why I love your blog! I love the way you respect all living creatures, not just humans. It’s a point of view that is rarely represented in mainstream media.

    1. bookartist*

      And this is where things fall apart a bit for me – yes it is nice to want to save creatures who are in mortal peril. But coworker was actively putting this creature in peril! Why is there no thought given to the fact that this person who wants to save a life, however small, is actually destroying that life?

      Maybe Starfleet has it right with the Prime Directive.

  78. Mallory*

    Re #1…I actually think that employee sounds moderately deranged and I would also have been very upset by this? Am I nuts? Please advise. Thank you. :)

  79. Observer*

    #3 Please do NOT correct this usage. It’s not technically incorrect, and it’s common enough that it’s highly unlikely that it’s causing any damage to the organization’s reputation. On the other hand, you WILL come off as nit picky and micromanaging.

    And if the only problem you have with the communications of your customer care associates is the use of “reach out” count yourself to be very fortunate. And, find something better to do with your time.

    Maybe you could think of a better description that “Customer Care associate”, who are not “associates” of the company – they are employees.

    2. GreenDoor*

      “And find something better to do with your time”

      The tone of your response, Observer, is a bit harsh. The OP was merely seeking an opinion from an expert about the use of one term. OP’s letter didn’t sound like this was some war they were about to wage. And why the chastising over the Customer Care Associate title? Nowhere in the letter does OP say that they even have influence over stuff like titles.

      1. Observer*

        My points were

        1. If you have so much time and energy to get this worked up about a common and not incorrect usage, then you sound like you have too much time on your hands. Actually EMAILING your staff to chastise them over it is just an incredibly poor idea and sounds demoralizing and micromanage-y.

        2. “customer Care Associate” is a very common title, true. And it’s one that is seen as providing the same faux concern, warmth and status that the OP is complaining about with the use of “reaching out”. Basically, stop worrying about the use of pretend warmth when the structure of the titles you use does the exact same thing.

  80. hericane*

    There is something about this firing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The employee screwed up for sure, but I don’t know that she deserved to be fired. I wonder if someone was looking for a reason to get fired.

    I’d love to hear the other side of this. There might be an EEOC complaint on the horizon.

      1. sunny-dee*

        At my husband’s job, they had a POC manager who was a total screw up, but HR was really afraid of an EEOC complaint. Normally, someone is fired after three write-ups (I think it’s within three months); they fired him after six. He then sued … because they had treated him differently than a white employee.

    2. Max from St. Mary's*

      I’m trying to figure out another side and struggling:
      My family is being held hostage for candy, so to free them I must put on a ballgown and beg for sweets.
      My horoscope says I should reach out and embrace my hidden hero, and my secret desire will be rewarded.
      I’m certain that if I would shatter the stuffy atmosphere here my fellow co-workers would burst into dance, my manager would manager would sing, and all of the C suite executives would guide me to a throne and I would rule the corporate world.
      That’s all I got.

  81. Manager-at-Large*

    Putting in “don’t dress up for Halloween” into the handbook seems over the top. Maybe put a line on a slide of orientation deck for new hires, if that. At OldJob, we had a dress code that included “no Snugli (a blanket-clothes combination garment), no pajamas” as well as other one-off lines. It made us all wonder what the triggering event was for those, much like when you read a list of “crazy laws still in effect” .

  82. JulieBulie*

    OP#4, If it’s any consolation, I know the feeling. When you think you’re a good fit for the job and they don’t even ask you for an interview, and then they re-post the job, it would be really nice to know why they passed you over.

  83. Noah*

    #1 I’m sorry but walking into a client meeting and trick or treating is just nuts. I think it was completely reasonable to fire her. Even wearing a costume to a client meeting is pushing it, but I could see how that could be a cultural misjudgment. Interrupting a client meeting AT ALL is a big deal; doing it like this is a Really Big Deal.

    I do feel bad for the young employee, but I don’t think the company did anything wrong here at all.

  84. SCtoDC*

    OP1-I hate to disagree with Alison, but I actually don’t think this is a weird thing to be fired for especially in the financial industry. That is just not an industry that you “play around” in. Everything is stuffy and formal. If folks in the industry wanted that to change, it would have changed years ago. The fact that this employee thought she was going to be the one to make things less stuffy, shows a complete lack of understanding in regards to the industry.

  85. JD*

    I think LW2 is really going overboard over a dang ladybug. I mean really? It is fine if you don’t want a bug near you but the fact that it is even worth thinking about, in your mind, is way over the top to me. I am surprised this letter proves worthy of posting.

    2. Ladybug Hatin' LW*

      I’m happy for you that ladybugs are no big deal in your life but as someone who had floods of them in my upstairs room as a child dying smelly gross deaths (must have been that Asian beetle people talked about upthread – I didn’t know there were several types of ladybug ) they will be permanently disgusting to me forever and I don’t want that POS to land on me.

  86. JD*

    Regarding the cover letter, if I didn’t call you for an interview I guarantee I will not remember your name at all so I would for sure sent a cover letter or I wouldn’t be even looking at your resume. I personally wouldn’t mind the same cover letter.

  87. GreenDoor*

    #3 I hate the “reach out” term, too. I”m a fan of the show The Walking Dead and every time I hear it, I picture a co-worker, in a zombie state, arms outstretched and hungry for brains, heading for the person they’re “reaching out” to.

    But it has become a common expression, as annoying, but as much-used as “think outside the box” and “low-hanging fruit” and other such obnoxious office-isms. I think you just need to ignore it.

  88. ArtK*

    For “Reach Out,” blame AT&T. They had an advertising campaign (dating back to 1987 no less): “Reach Out and Touch Someone.”

  89. Newt*

    LW 1:

    Your employee definitely misjudged things. Asking for sweets in a meeting was inappropriate regardless of office culture iro costumes, and responding to your questions with comments about the office being “stuffy” shows poor judgement. That said, I definitely think you need to be more explicit about the office culture iro costumes and seasonal holiday activities, because your company’s approach to this definitely isn’t universal.

    I work for a large, multinational underwriter involved in the Lloyds market. And my office had an officially organised fancy dress competition, a baking contest, and a conference room set up with seasonally-appropriate games, quizzes and spooky music, as part of a charity fundraiser for our current sponsored charity-of-the-year. I don’t believe that quite *that* level of silliness is all that common, but even the more formal or “stuffy” offices I’ve worked at in the past have generally had a little space for people to do something like, have a Christmas-jumper-day for charity on the last working day before the holidays or something.

    Personally, in a new company I still wouldn’t think to turn up in fancy dress without talking to my coworkers to gauge office culture first, but I’ve been working in office environments for long enough to know that different places have different cultural expectations, and it wouldn’t do any harm to be explicit when introducing new hires to the dress code etc (“We have a strict business-attire dress code here without exceptions, which unfortunately means no casual Fridays, and no holiday-themed costumes or casual wear” would cover it). Especially if the response to a misstep like this is immediate firing.

  90. Observer*

    #1 You’ve been deluged with comments about how inappropriate Princess’ actions were. But what I’d really like to highlight is the responses pointing out that you may not be answering the question your boss is really asking. Also, you DO know at SOMETHING about what she was thinking- she TOLD you!

    She told you that she thinks that the office is too stuffy and needs to lighten up. And that wearing a “fun” costume would help force the office into a better direction.

    Your boss probably wants to know WHY you don’t know what she was thinking, how you missed the fact that she has terrible judgement, and what you are going to do to avoid missing the boat again.

    1. Steve*

      Totally agree. There’s a lot of debate about whether Tiana’s behavior was appropriate, but Tiana is not the one who wrote to AAM. OP#1 is and OP#1 needs some advice on how to respond to his or her manager. The fact that the manager is repeating the questions shows that s/he is not getting the responses s/he needs.

    2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Exactly! In a hierarchical structure, managers are held responsible for the actions of their direct reports. The Director is asking OP1 (in a very indirect manner) if OP1 can be trusted to ensure this never happens again.

  91. Pathfinder Ryder*

    My workplace is casual enough that I wore a hat and gloves as costume to work reception on Halloween and reverse trick or treated (reverse meaning I offered them candy, although one office did give me a muesli bar from their snack stash in return) around the departments we work closely with, but I still took off the hat and gloves and didn’t bring the candy for a meeting.

    I feel like Tiana’s good twin.

  92. Menacia*

    OP #1 – I think the costume-clad employee will probably be glad she was fired when she’s matured a bit and realized what she did was not the way to bring fun to a stuffy office. I don’t know that she would ever live it down. Learn and move on to a culture that fits your personality.

  93. Susana*

    Sorry to be a party pooper but… why, of why, are adults wearing costumes on Halloween – especially to the *office?* This is a tradition for kids. If I walk into an office and all the adults there are dressed up, my respect for that company and its management plummets. I’m with the big boss here. wondering what on earth this employee was thinking. Firing her for that – probably too severe. But the fact that she did not apologize or own up to her bad and unprofessional behavior… that might have done it for me.

    1. Menacia*

      I have to agree, our Customer Service department forces this type of stuff on its staff. Some get really into it, and they come around to the other departments offering candy to everyone. No other department in the company does this, only CS. We had one person in IT who would come in dressed in costume but I think he understands now that’s not something we do. It definitely makes one think twice about the people who do, just not appropriate for work (go to a party or have a party after work if you need to dress up).

    2. Anon anon anon*

      I agree. Most of the places where I’ve worked have encouraged people to dress up for Halloween, or were ok with it. But I would never come to work in a costume without being told it was ok (or wearing something that was within the dress code).

      I’m reading this as possible college to working world culture shock. Students are taught to take initiative, make an impact, be influential, seek to change things for the better, and to be a little skeptical of social hierarchies. Those are good things in the long run, but in a traditional office job, one of the requirements is to know your place and follow the rules. At least when you start out. I think universities should have more conversations with students about this. And encourage those who find entry level corporate jobs to do things on the side to have an impact – writing articles, starting a small side business, etc.

      I think the real error was that the employee was so defensive about it. Maybe she had relatives or older friends who worked in similar types of offices and had told her that it would be ok? It almost sounds like that type of over-confidence.

    3. Lissa*

      I understand thinking it should only be for kids, but I have to say I think that ship has sailed. Adults dressing up for Halloween is a pretty common thing in a lot of places, offices included, so while you’re definitely in your rights to not like it, I think it’s a normal enough thing culturally that I don’t think people who partake in it are being unreasonable or immature. (In most cases, this employee was WTF for sure)

      1. Patsy Stone*

        I wish I could lighten up and not inwardly cringe when I see adults in costumes in otherwise professional settings. I’ve been costume averse since my own rotten childhood when lots of bad things happened. But I’m a very civil and nice person so I’ve adapted and give a smile at least or say something pleasant if I can think fast enough. That’s my own baggage. But like you said, this employee was WTF. I really feel it was unprofessional to the point of antisocial to get in people’s face like that in public and demanded a festive reaction from them. I would have been horrified and embarrassed to be put on the spot like that. Maybe as you say that ship has sailed, but as a paying customer I would be looking for the door and making my excuses.

        1. Lissa*

          Yeah, I get it! There are definitely a lot of things that people do that cause a definite inward cringe for me (adults saying child-words like potty, tummy etc. when there are no kids around, LOL). But I think the difference is that you know it’s a “you thing” and the people doing it aren’t actually doing anything ‘wrong’ by dressing up nor does it really say anything negative about them. Though yeah I would also be seriously embarrassed if I had someone act like that to me! I think the behavior in the meeting was way way worse than an ill-timed costume.

  94. Anon anon anon*

    #3 – I think of it as part of the current office lingo. The way you’re supposed to phrase things in order to sound polite. “Should I go ahead and reach out to the client? Or would you prefer to reach out to her yourself?” Translated to off-work casual: “Do you want to call her or should I?”

  95. Agent Diane*

    OP1 – someone upthread (Ramona, I think) mentioned talking to Tiana’s team mates. I agree, but not so much as a post-mortem or looking for signs of them “pranking” her* but to check if the office’s culture is causing younger employees to feel stifled. Especially if you have a pattern of recent graduates moving on within a year. If that’s the case, you can then explain to your boss that you can assure her there will be no more Disney Princesses or Princes, but for employee engagement/retention it might be wise to start having a more relaxed code once a month as a safety valve. That deals with both the immediate “this won’t happen again” and may even put in a more positive way of ensuring that than a whispered “this place is so stuffy” office Tale of Tiana’s Trick or Treating.

    *though if she is black, the rest of the team is white and they did encourage her you need to have a hard look at whether they are the ones with a troubling response to a black woman in a trad white male culture.

    1. Reader*

      The employee confirmed that she did not discuss it with anyone in the office beforehand. The idea that anyone was “setting her up” seems like a huge leap.

      “I asked her if anyone told her it was okay for her to dress up and she said it was her idea and she didn’t talk about it with anyone here.”

      1. Agent Diane*

        True, but Tiana’s teammates could have gone “OMG, no!” when she arrived and at least prevented the trick or treating. So what happened there?

        My main point is OP1 needs to not only reassure her manager, she needs to take some action she can inform her manager she has taken (preferably short of reprinting the entire manual). Tiana may be a symptom of a wider issue about the culture. Others may have just been quietly moving on.

        1. Reader*

          I think that questioning her former co-workers would do more harm than good. This is just shifting blame from the employee. She was determined to pull the stunt in order to “lighten the mood of the stuffy environment” and saw no problem in doing so even after being told it was inappropriate.

          Frankly, I would be really annoyed if my manager questioned me about why I didn’t stop my co-worker from doing something that I had no prior knowledge about because it’s none of my business. For all they knew she could have had permission which seems much more plausible than doing so on her own initiative which is just incredulous.

          Even if she stopped to talk with others when she arrived at the office, she very well could have brushed off any concern raised by their questions. Is it then the co-workers’ duty to snitch to her manager or otherwise ensure that she goes home to change? If someone told me that they were just having a bit of fun, why do they need permission, what’s the big deal, etc. I’m going back to my desk and staying out of the line of fire.

          1. Lissa*

            Also some people just aren’t great at thinking on their feet when something outrageous happens, or feel it’s not their place, etc. I think it’s very easy to, with hindside, say “Oh, if *I* had been there, *I* would have ..” but situations that are really out of the norm get some very strange responses from people.

  96. Anon anon anon*

    #1 – I just looked up Princess Tiana (after replying to a comment above). I don’t really follow Disney movies. I found a picture of a costume for adults and it doesn’t look too inappropriate for work. Given all the options, it seems like a pretty reasonable choice. The asking for candy part – I can see that being really bad or just a fun joke depending on how it was done.

    I think getting defensive was the real mistake, but I agree with whomever pointed out that someone else in the office might have encouraged her to do this. It might be a good idea to try and find out if there’s more to the story.

    1. CityMouse*

      It depends on the scene. For the first part of the movie, Tiana mostly wears standard early 1900s clothes, but at two points in the movie the character wears a fancy ballgown and tiara, once when she herself has been invited to a fancy costume party and once towards the end of the movie. My guess is that this was one of those gowns. Alternately, it could have been a frog costume.

      1. AMPG*

        Yeah, when Tiana does character meet-and-greets on Disney properties, she wears her ballgown from the costume party. Similar to how Belle’s “official” look is the gold off-the-shoulder gown from the dancing scene, not the blue dress with apron from the beginning.

    2. Observer*

      I really can’t imagine any Disney Princess costumes that would be appropriate in a place with such a dress code. They tend to sparkly party dresses, at best, and that’s just NOT compatible with strict, “stuffy” business formal.

  98. Michael*

    I work in a super relaxed environment (most men wear dark jeans or khakis, a belt, and a button down shirt, for context), and I would have fired someone who crashed a high-level client meeting in full costume and demanded candy. Best case scenario for them, we would have had a serious conversation about how *unbelievably* inappropriate that was, and maybe they would have managed to save their job if it was clear to me that they fully understood how badly they’d screwed up.

    But even in that best-case scenario, if they told me they were *purposefully trying to shake up our office culture?* Noooooope.

  99. JoJo*

    I wonder if the big boss repeatedly asking the LW what happened is more of a “why didn’t you send her home immediately to change?” than “what were the employee’s thought processes?”.

  100. Happy Pirate*

    Re #1
    Whilst it is an appalling lapse of judgement, the Director’s reaction is also weird.
    I’m wondering if the Director comes from a particularly conservative religious background. Apparently there are sects out there who literally think celebrating Halloween is Satan worship.

  101. motosubatsu*

    #1 – I’m generally very reluctant to fire anyone over a one-off incident but this may well have pushed me to it. Had it been just the costume then firing would have been way over the top, a firm word would have been about all it warranted. The costume in an extremely high-level meeting WITH MULTIPLE CLIENTS would have made it into a disciplinary matter, and asking these people for candy (or sweets for those of us on this side of the pond) would have pushed it into a the mother-of-all-bollockings where it would have been made very clear that they were now in last chance saloon. Repeated insistence that they had done nothing wrong would probably be the clincher that would have me reaching out (see what I did there?) to HR to have them issuing the P45.

    I can tolerate some truly egregious mistakes and fork-ups (and have done so) but if someone refuses to accept that they were in the wrong (at least professionally – they can say and think whatever they want outside of work) then there’s nothing to work with. You have no confidence that the same thing or similar won’t happen again in the future.

    Also this may be a cultural thing that I missing somewhere over the Atlantic but when did it become the norm to expect/excuse infantile behavior from people in their early twenties? I realise that it was nearly 15 years ago now but when I graduated university and went into the world of work at 22 there was some slack given on finer points of workplace behavior but very little and I was always expected to behave as an adult because, well, I was one. Has that changed now?

  102. The Claims Examiner*

    #3 – I don’t like “reach out” because it doesn’t tell me how urgent something is. My boss will say “reach out” and I will send an email, and then she will come back to me and say you should call so-and-so. Without the context of how urgent something is, “reach out” really doesn’t convey what medium I should use or what the deadline is.

  104. Kara*

    #1 Everyone is beating around the bush, but I’m going to say it. I’m going to assume that the woman was black, given her choices of costumes. If this is the case, I’m not at all surprised that this happened to her. We are often held to a higher (unfair) standard than others in the workplace. If someone of another race (European) had done that, they would probably at most get reprimanded, and people would find it weird/comical. Things like this happen regularly in my workplace. I wish someone would have stood up for her.

  105. Louise*

    If the woman who was fired was black or a minority, then her judgement was doubly bad–I’m a black woman who has worked in racist environments the majority of my working life, and the first thing you learn is how to read office (white) culture. She should also know that as a woman living in a male-dominated culture. Either way, she was very naive, bless her heart. I hope she bounces back soon.

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