open thread – November 10-11, 2017

by Alison Green on November 10, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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{ 1,331 comments }

{ 1,331 comments… read them below }

  1. Katie*

    How much would you say your friends/family know about what you do?

    I don’t mean in the sense that you’re in some sort of covert organisation (although that’d be pretty interesting), but rather whether they have a completely different idea of what your job actually entails as opposed to assumptions made based on your title or company?

    1. La Revancha*

      Probably only my husband! I don’t talk much about work with family or friends, no reason really just not something I discuss (probably because my job isn’t that interesting).

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My friends have a pretty good idea of what I do; most of them work in the types of jobs where they would encounter someone who does something similar to what I do, especially if they themselves work in sales or marketing. My family? Ppffbbtt. No clue. My mother, especially, never bothered to try to understand my work. I switched industries and she kind of gets it a little more, but if someone asked her what I do for a living, she could name the department but not explain it. She, by the way, is a physician. No explanations necessary.

    3. Second Lunch*

      I’m a digital communications person, which I agree is pretty vague. Depending on the person, I’ve heard family members explain that I do marketing or “web stuff”.

    4. HR Expat*

      One of my family members asks me all the time- “What do you actually do? I mean, is hiring and firing people your entire job?”

      On the other hand, my brother also works in HR, so he completely understands.

    5. Murphy*

      In a small talk kind of situation, my job is somewhat difficult/boring to explain. I work at a university and the word “research” is in my title, so people think that I do research when I don’t. I explain to close friends and family what I do, but otherwise I leave details out unless it’s an extended conversation.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Mine too! Plus I shifted from doing to facilitating research, so a lot of people think they might know what I do when that’s what I used to do.

      2. Alcott*

        Same here – research in the job title, but I don’t do research.

        Except if you ask my brother, he’ll tell you I work in admissions (and I’ve told him to say literally anything else if he’s not going to bother to figure out what I actually do!).

    6. m*

      My spouse knows a lot about what I do because we talk about work a lot (I know a lot about his job as well). Other than that, most probably only have a rough idea. My mother-in-law has a pretty good idea what I do, but that’s because she’s familiar with my field.

      1. Carrotcakebringsrabbits*

        Sometimes when my kids can’t get to sleep, I describe my job duties to bore them to sleep.
        If my job was a character in a movie, I’d be the Robert DeNiro HVAC repairman in “Brazil” – only with paperwork, not A/C units.
        Sometimes when I get worked up about something at work, I mentally flash on Chandler Bing talking about the “Wenus”

    7. Amber Rose*

      There’s one of those “what they think I do, what I think I do” memes for my position that is painfully accurate. Most people think I go around with a clipboard, yelling at people. What I actually do is sit at my desk with my head in my hands, surrounded by stacks of paper.

      Husband has a fairly decent idea what I do because I rant about it to him all the time.

    8. Anon for This*

      My family and non-industry friends have a vague understanding of what I do, but they really don’t understand what I do. However, I think that is pretty typical, especially in more niche industries.

    9. Asha*

      My title is “communications manager” and literally no one knows what that entails day-to-day – even other comms managers, since there are so many different aspects of communications that could fall under that title. Most people think I look at photos and skim social media all day.

      1. Jiggy*

        Me too! I’m in my second Communications Manager role and about 40% of the duties are the same from my first to my current.

      2. NeverNicky*

        Another Comms Manager here. Most people I think know I write health information, edit several publications, post on social media, manage a website and get interviewed for the traditional media as an organisational spokesperson. However they don’t really know the nuts and bolts of how much it takes to get to the point of having the above tangible results.

        1. Asha*

          Yes. That’s pretty close to my role (different industry than health though) and there’s so much more to it.

    10. Tableau Wizard*

      My mom has no idea – she’s a bit out of touch with everything.

      My dad THINKS he knows what I do, but probably only understands about 20% of it. He’s in an adjacent industry and has a similar educational background, but he’s been running his own company for so long that he’s lost touch with what any other workplace actually looks like.

      My husband understands it pretty well. He’s in government and I’m in the private sector so there’s some differences there that he can’t quite wrap his head around, but he gets it.

    11. NW Mossy*

      Amusingly, I have a dear friend whose sister works for “the Department of Defense,” which is understood to mean that she actually works for the government in a covert/secret capacity of some kind.

      Many of my friends are in the same industry I am and understand what I do pretty well, but for family and non-industry friends, it got a lot easier to understand my job when I moved into management. They can grasp “manages 10 people at a financial services company” much better than “retirement plans regulatory consultant.”

    12. selina kyle*

      It’s hard to say? I think that on day-to-day stuff both my boyfriend and my folks are in the dark. On a larger scale, such as when I have bigger projects with actual outcomes that I can talk about (i.e. – “this pamphlet I’ve been working on is now on tables at this event I was also working on”) they have more of a sense of it.
      This is such an interesting question though!

    13. Anon Accountant*

      Not much. They understand some basics such as payroll and taxes but it’s basic. They think it’s a very quick process and shouldn’t ever have overtime, etc.

    14. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      My friends know a decent bit because most of us are tech-savvy or in some IT type role, and my sister gets it, but my parents are pretty clueless, even though I talk to them about work often and have explained many times what I do. My actual title is ETL developer, so I usually keep it simple and say “database developer.” All my parents can really understand is that I “do things with databases,” and they keep thinking I still work in distance education, when in fact it’s been almost 4 years since I moved on from that area. I don’t think any of my extended family really have a clue what I do, as they also keep asking me how things are in distance education and ask, “are you still working with Blackboard?” Thank god, no I’m not.

      I just don’t really talk about work without anyone outside my immediate family, and my parents aren’t that tech savvy to really grasp what I’m doing, which is ETL development on a data warehouse. It’s easier just to say “database stuff.”

      1. Delusions of Blandeur*

        Nice to know that the people who make Blackboard hate it as much as students do! That site was the bane of my college existence.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Oh I didn’t make it – I just supported it at a university. But I think you are right – I’ve worked with a lot of Blackboard employees on various projects and none of them seemed to last more than a few months!

    15. Quinalla*

      This is something my husband and I joke about all the time is no one understands what we do and we’ve given up trying to explain better to some people as they have their misconception stuck in their head and they just don’t get it :)

    16. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My partner is probably the only person outside of work who has any idea what I do, and that’s mostly because we’re in the same industry (we actually work for competing companies in the same market).

    17. SCtoDC*

      I deeply love my job, but most people’s eyes glaze over when I tell them my position/area of study. I usually only discuss my job from the 35,000 foot level, otherwise it gets to wonky. My parents and husband know all about where I work, but I don’t think they could really explain what I do. It’s also hard when I am with my husband and we are both introducing ourselves. He is a political journalist, and as soon as he tells people what he does everyone is way more interested in talking to him than to me (the researcher).

    18. Temp4This*

      Not a lot! I have a sort of weird (and covert) job right now, so best friends and family get an actual outline of what I do, but everyone else gets vague wishywashyness. I can’t say anything though! It makes it hard to have conversations.

    19. ClownBaby*

      They don’t know the day-to-day. If I ever talk about work outside of work, it’s only about the unbelievable, rare, unusual bits. My family and friends actually think my job is way more crazy and stressful than it actually is.

    20. Temperance*

      My friends understand, because they’re mostly also lawyers. My family has no clue, and I’m fine with that.

    21. AdAgencyChick*

      My husband knows a lot. My niece, who is training in a related field, knows quite a bit. Everybody else in my family…not a bit.

      A few select friends have a pretty good understanding, but usually when I discuss work with friends it’s in the context of clients and their behavior rather than what it is we do for them.

    23. paul*

      They don’t have a clue but that’s OK, because I don’t really understand what the heck most of them do day to day either.

    24. oranges & lemons*

      I work in a field that I don’t think of as particularly obscure (book publishing) but I’m always a bit surprised by how few people understand what it actually entails, based on the weird questions I get. I also get the impression that most people find it extremely boring.

    25. REd 5*

      Depends on the person and the conversation. But most of what I do is pretty easily understood, since I work in communications and everybody communicates or is communicated to. The ins and outs of some specific reports can get a bit in the weeds but I only ever have occasion to talk about that with a few friends when I’m complaining, and usually it’s with a friend that also has to do a bunch of silly reports of her own so we talk more about the annoyance of compiling reports than the specifics.

      But again, I’m lucky, my title and my job line up pretty accurately with what people assume about it.

    26. username*

      Somewhat – the big picture “study abroad” people mostly get, but explaining what my job entails is hard, especially because it’s constantly changing. But they do see that I travel a lot, so that’s the easiest thing to talk about.

    27. Bank Auditor*

      Very little – largely because due to privacy of customer financial information I can’t talk about 90% of it and also partly because I don’t find most people are particularly informed (or interested at all) in what bankers do aside from cashing checks and lending money. Some of the investigating I do is absolutely fascinating to me but alas, the world may never know it. ;)

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        I did some work with my firms fraud department and found it really interesting and my boss used to work for the local police department some of the investigators he was involved in were fascinating

    28. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I’m an accountant and everyone just assumes I do taxes. Nope – I’m the corporate general ledger analyst. No one knows what a general ledger is.

      1. Deschain*

        It’s the same for me! I own a bookkeeping business and my husband is an A/R accountant for a large international pharmaceutical company, but yet our family thinks we’re tax accountants. Um… no, no, no!

      3. Freelance Accountant*

        I own my own bookkeeping business, and work exclusively with SMBs developing bookkeeping processes, implementing and training on bookkeeping software and related apps, and doing books for businesses. So, soooo many people ask me if I want to do their taxes.

        No. No, I really don’t want to do that.

        My mother-in-law thinks she really understands what I do, because she worked in a payroll department of a large organization forty years ago (she has no idea). Business owners, other bookkeepers, and accountants understand what I do. I think most other people picture me with a green eyeshade, a manual ledger-book, an adding machine with a roll of paper tape spilling onto the floor, and piles of receipts.

        1. Red Reader*

          “I think most other people picture me with a green eyeshade, a manual ledger-book, an adding machine with a roll of paper tape spilling onto the floor, and piles of receipts.”

          When I was little, that was exactly what I wanted to do when I grew up. I even had one of those green-shaded desk lamps.

      4. Beth Anne*

        YES! I am a bookkeeper and everyone asks me tax questions as well. I really have NO DESIRE to do taxes. My MIL thinks I’m a CPA. And I’m like no I am not. But she also calls her CPA her bookkeeper which is so degrading imo. Oh well.

    29. Kat_Map*

      This question actually just reminded me of something cute involving a friend — her husband is an animator, but his grandmother-in-law isn’t able to totally grasp that, so she thinks he’s a puppeteer. It warms my heart.

      2. Fact & Fiction*

        My work-related grandmother story that warms my heart every time (and will “out” me to the few who know this story) deals with the fiction side of my writing career. My grandma was a sweet but conservative Baptist who read as avidly as me, but mostly Christian romances, sweet romances, and Westerns. She helped foster my love of reading and writing and was super proud of my getting published. I assumed she wouldn’t actually read my first published book because it was in the urban fantasy genre, outside her general cup of tea. She proudly told me she read the whole thing and loved it. My grandfather then ratted her out by saying, “Yes, but she read it with a pen in hand so she could scratch out all the bad words.” I grin every time I think of that.

        1. Mananana*

          Oh, F&F, that made me smile. I come proudly from a long line of conservative Baptists, and I can easily see my beloved Grandmother, my Mom, and all her sisters doing the exact same thing.

      3. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I’m an applied anthropologist (currently working in healthcare). My grandma always cuts out newspaper articles on dinosaur discoveries for me. (Bonus though, because dinosaurs are cool!) Also I had an internship at the UN while in grad school and my grandma thought I was a UN interpreter. Not sure why, but that was the only job she could picture at the UN.

        1. The Expendable Redshirt*

          Oh gosh! Fell over laughing at this.

          My degree is in anthropology, and the parents think that I studied dinosaurs.

    30. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      I work for a pharmacy / home infusion provider so everyone thinks they know that I do. I am not a pharmacist or a nurse so my job isn’t really addressed in what our company does. That confuses a lot of people. My mom knows that I work with insurance and as a result thinks that I’m some kind of expert for understanding her health plan. My husband knows a lot of what I do because we talk about our jobs. I have one friend who fully understands what I do as she works for a similar company (as a nurse) and knows that my job is important for her to get paid for her job. :) Aside from that…no…nobody knows what I do. I kind of like it that way. I actually use their ignorance as a way to not talk about work. “How’s work going these days?” “Oh you know! I’d love to talk about it but those dang HIPAA laws…..” and then I shrug helplessly. There’s always a nod of understanding and we move on to other topics.

    31. Sara*

      I have to be honest – I know very little about what my friends do. I know their titles but not really their companies or specifics. I have a really hard time retaining work information about other people. Probably because I find my job so dull and uninteresting, I tend to zone out of work related conversations.

      1. fposte*

        I was going to say that my friends know what I do since they work for the same department, but then I realized how little I know about what they do.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I never really did figure out what my father did for a living. What was puzzling to me was how did he know what to do and when to do it. So he ended up with a stack of blueprints with his name on them. When I first met my husband he asked what my father did. I showed him the blueprints. He couldn’t figure it out either.

        I had one job where I did the actual job 25% of the time. The remaining 75% was trouble-shooting and putting out fires. “So you do x for work. Explain to me again how you ended up dealing with that plumbing problem?” ugh. It would take too long to explain it.

    32. Mimmy*

      I think my husband is the only one who truly has a sense of what I do. I’m a keyboarding instructor with blind & visually impaired adults. Everyone I’ve told asks me if the keys are Brailled. I say “no”, that I teach them how to touch-type (or try to! Some students with usable vision can be resistant).

      (I hope this is what you were asking!)

      1. Specialk9*

        That actually sounds like one of the more straightforward jobs. I wonder if you said “I blind and partially blind people to touch type without needing Braille” instead of your title, you would find comprehension goes way up. It seems so much more tactile than many job titles!

    33. Ramona Flowers*

      I work for a charity. I’d say people have a vague-to-good idea of what I do.

      When I was a journalist, they didn’t get it. I was forever having people ask me if I got writer’s block, which is… not what journalism is about.

      1. Karen D*

        My friends are generally pretty interested in journalism and always asking me about my take on national stories, which is cool. My best friend stalks my publication’s website and will often email me in the morning in response to something I’ve written.

        My family … 100 percent not interested. I don’t think anyone in my family has ever read anything I’ve written for publication. That kinda stings, to be honest.

        1. Rainy*

          I’ve worked for my current organization for 2 1/2 years, in 3 different roles, and my parents have not had any idea of what I do for probably 15 years, going back to before grad school.

          My mother is so out of touch that I had to stop her giving my younger sister terrible grad school opinions (I hesitate to dignify something so wildly off-base with the term “advice”), and she still occasionally tries to give me advice about my career, which is weird, because she’s one of those people who is so unpleasant she cannot actually work in any role that involves any human contact whatsoever. She had to take early retirement (read: stop looking for work) because interviews have gotten more targeted toward fit and she’s so obviously not a nice person to be around even when she’s exerting herself for an interview.

    34. TotesMaGoats*

      People probably understand in a general sense what I do on a daily basis but there is a lot that the general public doesn’t know about higher education and what we do. My mom understands because she’s in my field.

      My husband has a job where he can talk about where he is employed but not what he does. Although he’s excellent at the keeping his lips zipped part, he does chafe at not being able to share the cool things he does. Not that we would understand it because it’s super technical.

    35. Phlox*

      I manage a very visible bike outreach team in my city so a lot of friends know what my team does, who they are etc. since most of us bike for transportation. Family knows some of the what they do but hears more of the management side from me. Looking forward to eventually having a less visible job.

    36. Yeah, I'm in computers*

      People think I am either a web designer, programmer, financial analyst or translator because I typeset financial documents in multiple languages.
      So pretty much no idea.

      1. Specialk9*

        Typesetting used to mean physically moving carved letters into place, right? I’m assuming it no longer does. Do you basically design layout of documents?

    37. StudentPilot*

      There are so many misconceptions about what I do, and a lot of what I do is confidential information that I can’t share. Weirdly, my friends and family even get the language that I work in wrong (I work for the Canadian federal government, everyone seems to think I’m dealing with French, when it’s English. It’s very bizarre to me, since I’m an Anglophone, and they all know this)

    38. jstarr*

      Literally only other people in my position at other companies know what I do. It’s difficult for even my boss to understand what falls under my legal adjacent field and what doesn’t.

      My s/o has a decent grip on it but my folks would rather talk about my brother’s easy to describe tv job.

    39. Wendy Darling*

      My jobs have all been weird, and how much the people in my life understand about what I do depends on 1. how technology-literate they are, and 2. how much they’ve asked me. My job titles are really uninformative.

      Basically everyone except my SO just knows I do something with chatbots.

      1. Specialk9*

        Do you tell them your title, or a description? I am picking up that lots of people use formal titles rather than real language descriptors.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I don’t tell them my title because my title is not descriptive *at all*. My current title is basically just a few words of business jargon that are uninformative and actually slightly misleading.

          I tell people I work on making chatbots understand people better, because that is the super-short description of what I actually do.

    40. Arjay*

      They know what I do physically all day – I sit at my desk and type, then I go to a meeting, then I come back and type some more. As far as what I might be typing or meeting about? Zero clues.

      My favorite story about this was actually with a coworker who does an Intake task all day: 60 second tasks over and over all day long for 8 hours. We were talking in the elevator and she asked me what I do. I gave her the elevator speech of “Oh, I work on X, Y, and Z.”
      Her priceless answer: “Wow, that sounds really boring.”

    41. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      My mother’s got a good idea, because her career was also finance and she handles finances for a couple of elderly family members, so we talk shop a lot. Dad knows because he listens to the conversations, but doesn’t add much.

      The rest of the family? My grandmother keeps calling me her “banker granddaughter” and the rest mostly know I just do something to do with Wall Street. To be fair, my cousins are a computer and a mechanical engineer respectively, and I’ve only got the vaguest idea what they do either.

      2. LKW*

        Oy – in my family we jokingly refer to all PhDs as Mr. / Ms. Doctor. As in “Hello Mr. Dr. Smith and how is your day?”

    43. Friday*

      My husband and I are in the same field and industry so we know a lot about each other’s jobs – comes in handy sometimes when one of us is stuck on a work thing and needs to talk it out.

    44. Turquoisecow*

      I’ve always had boring jobs. I’d love to talk about them more with friends and family, but I can see eyes glazing over if I go on for too long, so it’s easier to just gloss over the details and give vague descriptions.

      My husband knows a little more, but a lack of real interest leads him to not really remember details. He’s also not in (and has never been in) my industry, so some of what I talk about doesn’t make sense to him either.

      1. Turquoisecow*

        Oh, and my husband works in technology, and while I can explain the big picture of what he does to others, I don’t have a super clear picture of his day to day or why he’s doing it. Meetings with vendors is the most of it!

    45. Marzipan*

      Ironically my team was just moved from one department to another department, following a process where the idea was formally put to the very senior decision-makers who said to do it, and *then* everyone above us but below them gave some consideration to what we actually do rather than (or, more precisely, in addition to) what they initially thought we did, and realised they maybe didn’t want to transfer us after all but were basically stuck with it because they’d already had it approved. It’s quite entertaining!

    46. Lora*

      I have a lot of friends in the same field, but my friends outside of pharma? And family? Pfffffttt. Most of em imagine I dissect frogs all day because that’s what they did in high school science class.

    47. ERugg*

      I wear many hats and I think most friends/family know one of my areas – the one that I simultaneously enjoy the most and gives me the most headache, but beyond that – not so much.

    48. Theme Park Employee*

      My wife has a pretty good idea of what my job entails (and I hers).

      Friends and Family – perhaps not so much. I work for a global entertainment company (which runs theme parks, among other things), technically in their corporate HR department, although my job is as an IT analyst providing support as well as release/outage planning for systems used for recruiting, learning management, performance management, and talent/succession planning.

      There are basically 3 levels of comprehension –
      #1 – understanding that I work for a company that runs theme parks: “Oh! Are you (Costumed Character)? Or are you a ride operator?” (I actually did formerly work as a ride op, so I’m kind of ok with this)
      #2 – understanding that I work in IT: “Oh! You work in IT! Can you fix my printer?” (no, no I can’t)
      #3 – understanding that I work in HR: “Oh! You work in HR? That must be a really boring job”

    49. LizB*

      I work for an organization that is very well known for doing X, and I do Y. We do a terrible job of advertising our Y services to the public (which is a shame, because they’re super cool), so when I describe my job, I tend to leave out the name of the organization and just say “I manage a department that does Y.” Most of my friends and family have gotten the hang of what I do by now, after lots of repetition. (It helps that many of my friends do Y-related things, so they understand the field.)

    50. SeltzerForever*

      Not at all. It’s difficult to explain so I typically don’t even bother.
      I never tried to explain it to my parents because back when I was a reporter, my father once described my job as “wearing nice clothes and sitting at a computer typing” so I gave up. My parents worked very blue collar jobs their whole lives. If you’re not literally assembling something, they have no idea what you do.

    51. Sled dog mama*

      I would say my husband has a reasonable idea, obviously my friends in the same profession. Beyond that nope but 95% of the population doesn’t know my career exists

    52. Turkletina*

      I’m a project manager, which is a title that means absolutely nothing. I try to explain to people what I do, but I get a lot of nodding and smiling.

      Most of my job is monitoring and managing quality, which is neither sexy nor easy to explain when people don’t understand what I’m monitoring and managing the quality *of*.

    53. ginkgo*

      This is a timely question. I was on the phone with my dad the other day and he said something about a particular tech gadget he’d been playing with lately. I said “Oh yeah, I know about those because of my job.” He said, “Your job? What do [tech gadgets] have to do with marketing?” I said, “Do you not know what my job is?” I am indeed in marketing…for a nonprofit that teaches girls technology skills. (I’d definitely told him that, but I guess he just forgot.)

      I used to work in book publishing, which was nice because my mom could understand it. When I changed jobs and told her my new organization taught girls to code, I think she actually did think that that meant some kind of spy work.

    54. burner name!*

      I work at PayPal, and almost everyone assumes I work with people’s money – like I’m some internet bank teller, like I have control over eBay seller/buyer disputes, like I have input in seller fees which are industry standard (like credit card processing fees for merchants). I ACTUALLY project manage marketing campaigns, which is a pretty generic job that I could do (and have done) in a variety of different industries. If you’re in the US and you get emails or see web banners from PayPal – particularly if you are a merchant or a seller who uses a business account, like if you use PayPal products to run your business and process your sales – then there’s a 50/50 chance that I project managed the campaign, through creative development, legal approval, implementation, launch, etc. Even my mom or my wife, the people who listen to me talk about work the most, would be like “I’m not exactly sure what she does, it’s project management but I think it’s got something to do with email? She’s on conference calls a LOT.”

      It was worse when I technically worked for eBay (before PayPal split off in 2015). When I worked for eBay I worked in their mobile advertising business – essentially project managing the placement and performance of mobile ads for other businesses like Ikea or Disney or Honda, working with third parties to place them on websites and apps then tracking their performance. It had literally nothing to do with the public-facing side of eBay; eBay owns so many other types of businesses that have nothing to do with the auction site. People who heard I worked for eBay always assumed I worked in some merchandise warehouse and had something to do with product sales – reminds me of that commercial with the old ladies. “That’s not how this works, that’s not how ANY of this works!!” It’s pretty remarkable how the general public doesn’t seem aware of the types of roles that are required to keep a massive global corporation running – people assume that everyone at the company does the one thing they’re aware of that company doing. Like, you work at PayPal, you must handle people’s money. There’s like 20-30k people who work for PayPal, most of us have nothing to do with transactions. :)

      1. nonegiven*

        I think one of my son’s friends is a system administrator for eBay. Doesn’t make me think they know anything about money or the stuff for sale on the site.

      2. Lindsay J*

        Same thing here. I work for an airline therefore I must be either a pilot, a flight attendant or a ticket seller. (Or sometimes a mechanic or baggage handler.)

        There are literally hundreds of job titles – maybe thousands – involved in running a large airline that have nothing to do with those things. But since that’s what people see, that’s what they automatically assume.

        Same with when I worked for a theme park. (Which I see theme park employee above has also experienced.) I must be a ride operator or a costumed character. Nope. Well, I was a ride operator over a decade ago, but none of the rides I was trained to run exist at the park anymore.

        1. TardyTardis*

          I hear you. I did financial statement account for a resort (the spreadsheet that distributed the property taxes was especially…interesting), but capitalizing a golf course isn’t nearly as much fun as people might think. I did get hugged by one of the Clydesdales, the sweetest mare in existence, when we did a site visit. Had to wash my hair that night. Biggest mistake I ever made was a lateral transfer to the window plants, the manager was a woman who had already driven me crazy, and try to explain to her that GAAP seemed to be different to different managers was um, exciting. She kept making me try to guess what how she wanted things instead of just telling me. Not there now, though.

      3. Rainy*

        My fiancé used to work for Netflix, and the next question was ALWAYS “Oh! Can he get [favourite movie] on Netflix please?”

        No, he can’t. In the same way that he currently works for IBM and cannot get you more cloud storage on their servers.

    55. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      They have a fairly good idea, since the position is pretty unusual. Anyone who’s asked me to explain the position, I have to go into a certain amount of detail.

    56. Tired Scientist*

      I’m a scientist, and perhaps only my husband (who used to hang out with me in the lab in grad school) has any kind of understanding about what I actually do. I think everyone else imagines me with brightly colored liquids in large flasks, entertaining and visible reactions, etc. In reality, I mix clear liquids with other clear liquids in tiny amounts and any reactions can generally be seen only by special instruments. I do a lot of writing (about 50%-60% of my job), which surprises people when they find out.

      Also, my friends and family assume that since I’m a scientist, that makes me an expert on everything. They are irritated whenever I say I don’t know. And for things that I actually am an expert on, they expect that I can explain it all to them in 5 minutes so that they understand as well as I do. It’s annoying.

      1. LabTech*

        Hey, you just described most of my field! (Analytical chemistry.) Everyone I’m close to knows what I do, because it’s such a big part of my life. Plus part of my jobs have always involved explaining technical concepts to people from a range of different educational backgrounds, so crossing the technical divide comes pretty naturally to me.

    57. Teal Green*

      My Spouse knows what I do. Friends who also work in the industry know generally what my position entails. Family…well they understand what my company does overall but don’t really get what it is that I do.

    58. Kirsten*

      I realized at some point that my parents, and probably many of my friends, pretty much have no idea what I do. I am a music therapist, so I guess they know in general terms what it involves, but if any of them were pressed to explain specifics of what I do, I don’t think they could do it. I think it’s a tough field to explain, because it can look vastly different depending on what population we are working with, plus with confidentiality rules, people rarely have the opportunity to actually observe our work.

    59. nep*

      On a related point — I couldn’t say precisely what my brother and sister do. One vague sentence putting them in a particular industry and perhaps discipline, maybe, but that’s about it.
      When I was working overseas, people had absolutely no idea. The remoteness gave it an extra layer of obscurity — it was just…exotic and I was off probably fighting off wild animals in the bush.

    61. LabAnimalVet*

      Hmm… of my friends/family not in the same field, hubs probably has a semi-reasonable understanding. My folks slightly less so. Everyone else could probably give you a 40,000 foot view but not actually tell you what having this job means I *do* all day.

    62. Half-Caf Latte*

      Sibling works at Google, and they recently had Take Your Parents to Work Day. There’s a video on the Google twitter feed that is just a montage of the emcee asking parents what their kids do at Google, and parents’ blank faces/I don’t knows in response.

      1. Mrs. Fenris*

        My niece works for Google, and I have no grasp of what she does or how she spends her day accomplishing it. I really need to get her to explain it again.

    63. TallTeapot*

      barely anything. My job is pretty broad and is in higher ed, which most of my family only have vague impressions of what happens anyways.

      1. Ghost Town*

        Yup – since I changed positions earlier this year, my focus has changed, which makes it easier to describe. Now, I’m “basically marketing (PROGRAMS) to (SPECIFIC POPULATIONS)” instead of “anything student facing vaguely related to (PROGRAM) I either do or tell you how to do it, plus all this marketing, website/social media, reporting, grant-focused, and student development stuff.”

    64. JeanB in NC*

      I’m a bookkeeper so my job title is fairly straightforward. The only people I have to explain it to is kids, and I just say I pay the bills.

    65. JHunz*

      I’d say most of them know what my job is, but not what it actually involves on a day-to-day basis. My wife and mother are the only ones I bore with the day-to-day details.

    66. Tech Writer*

      Friends/family know basically nothing about what I do. They joke that I write books no one reads, and I never share actual info because it’s all proprietary.

    67. AnotherAlison*

      Saddest Thanksgiving small talk every: My favorite aunt (who I was very close to growing up) asked me if I was still in HR? I’ve never, ever been in HR. She said that was what my mom told her I was doing. : (

      My degree is in engineering. I had engineering jobs, then moved to a market analyst job at the same company (which, granted, is a little vague but seems clearly not in HR to me), and at the time was back on the engineering side as a project manager. I don’t necessarily expect my family to know what I actually do, but maybe the right domain of work or job title would be nice. (FWIW, my mom is in accounts payable, and I know what she does. Lol.)

    68. DuckDuckGoose*

      I’ve worked in libraries for awhile now and most people think I just check books in and out or read while I wait for someone to check books out to.

      I’ve explained to my family and friends that my main job is more like coding (I work a lot in cataloging) and material repair. People closer to my age seem to understand, my older family members not so much.

      1. Academic Librarian*

        Same here. My step mother thinks I check books in and out. Because I am a subject specialist and manager of a special collection and archive, I am positive even my husband is clueless to my daily work…writing grant proposals, project management, collection management, digital and physical conservation and data access, academic research and writing, mentoring, committee meetings, pr, managing staff and work, supervising interns and volunteers, community relations, fundraising, special events, and teaching.

        1. DuckDuckGoose*

          There really is such variety in library tasks – part of why I love it! Rarely a boring day.

          I am jealous of you being a special collections manager! I’ve always wanted to be a conservator but can’t seem to break in to that realm of libraries.

      2. Ajewel*

        Those stereotypes persist for librarians. I’ve had so many customers and even members of my own family tell me how they wish they had my job because they’d just love to be able to read books all day in peace and quiet. Well, I would love that job too! But that’s not even close to what I do. Budgeting, invoicing, collection maintenance, meetings, program planning and a host of other administrative and supervisory tasks take up the bulk of my time each day.

    69. D.W.*

      Little to none. I’m always getting asked the question, “So what do you?”. They know I work with a marginalized demographic, but that’s it.

    70. Q*

      *sigh*

      My friends keep trying to suggest things that will make my job easier or offer my cheat sheets for…things I don’t need to know or do. It’s literally not involved in my job.

      But they think it is.

      And when I try to demur, they go, “well, it’s here if you need it…”

    71. bohtie*

      I’m bound by confidentiality on some things, but otherwise, I talk about my job in generalities a lot with my friends and family. My dad and i are in similar lines of work (he’s infosec and I’m info mgmt) so we in particular talk about our jobs a lot. Most people have no idea what an archivist or records manager is anyway so they might as well get the full, excruciating picture ;)

    72. Windchime*

      The only person in my family who understands what I do is my sister who is also in IT. My parents know it’s something to do with computers but that’s about the extent of it. When my sons were teenagers, they thought I just sat and typed all day. I’m a SQL developer, so technically I *do* a lot of sitting and typing, but there’s no way to explain that my job consists mostly of thinking.

    73. Someone else*

      Basically nothing. It’s not a secret. They just don’t get it/don’t have enough interest to bother getting it. A lot of my company’s clients are well-known names, so their understanding of my work pretty much starts and stops at “works with NAMEI’VEHEARDOF sometimes.” I’ve explained it more than that, but that’s the part that sticks. So I pretty much stopped talking about it.

    74. A Non E. Mouse*

      My husband and geek friends understand what I do; non-geek friends try really hard but in all fairness, I only get the general idea about their jobs too.

      My family has no freaking clue. I’ve tried to explain over the years, and they’ll even ask for help on pretty mundane tasks…and then question every move I make.

      Hence, the great “Yes, I know how to run a network cable” incident of 2010 and my father’s absolute amazement that…I could plug something in?

    75. Trisha*

      Few people in my friends and family network (outside those who work in the same department) have an idea of what I do. Not because my title is that confusing – I mean it is a bit but it does have “manager” in it (I am a Business Expertise Manager) but most people just know that I work for the government and still think I hold the same position I originally was hired for (Call Centre Agent). I frequently have to explain to people that no, I don’t still work in the call centre after 16 years.

    76. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      My dad actually called the other day (looking for job application advice) and opened the call with “You have something to do with this HR type shit, don’t you?”

      Thanks so much for that glowing assessment of my eight-year career, father.

      My husband is a professional hacker — that’s always a fun one to explain, especially to older family members.

      1. pandq*

        I would love to see Alison interview a professional hacker. What does that job look like?
        Not that your “HR type shit” isn’t interesting also, but I know a bit more about what is involved there. :)

        1. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

          That’s okay, his job is definitely more interesting :P

          So he works for a company that gets hired by… anyone really (government, big banks, medical centres, you name it) who have built software/networks/systems/whatever. He… hacks it. Finds out holes and ways in, as a user, accesses data he shouldn’t be able to access. Then he writes up a big report for them that tells them how he got in, how they can fix it, how they can prevent those holes from being created in the future.

          They also do cool stuff like testing a company’s security procedures by sending out a company-wide phishing email and reporting on how many people click the link. Or just straight up seeing how far they can bluff/tailgate their way into a secure building.

    77. Beth Anne*

      I’m a bookkeeper for a local restaurant. My MIL insists that I’m a CPA. She doesn’t understand that the two things are TOTALLY different things. She also calls her CPA her bookkeeper and kind of feel bad that she downgrades her CPA so much.

      I usually tell people that don’t know what bookkeepers do that I pay the bills and solve problems. I don’t know if my work stories are interesting. I think they are. lol

    78. Delusions of Blandeur*

      My title has the word “marketing” in it, but because of the industry I’m in, my actual day-to-day responsibilities look nothing like most people’s idea of marketing. And the industry itself is also really niche and weird to explain. So basically no one really knows what I do! I have my go-to analogies, but I mostly get polite-but-confused nods in response.

    79. CleverGirl*

      I’m a “data scientist”. I’m pretty sure my boss doesn’t even know what I do most of the time, so…

    80. ElinorD*

      I’m faculty in higher ed (community college), so my friends/family have some idea of what I do but the depth of the responsibilities flies over their heads. They don’t know how much outside the classroom work there is, and for those who also teach (k-12), they don’t realize how much advising and committee work I have to do. All anyone sees is the time I get outside of the classroom. For example, I might not have classes on a Friday, so I can run errands and do personal appts, but that pretty much guarantees I’ll be working on the weekend. If I have committee meetings or student appointments on that Friday, it still guarantees I’ll be working the weekend. Some close family members get really angry with me when I am on a break, forgetting that I’m probably pulling 10+ hour days during that “break.” And during the summer I have to scramble to pick up extra classes to make ends meet. I’m really passionate about what I do, but I’m learning how much I need personal time. My new goal is work/life balance. My students need a lot from me and I’m happy to give it, but I get to have something for myself too. Oooooo I went all confession-y on you. TL;DR – Nope. They know a little about what I do, but not how time or energy consuming it is.

    81. Amorphous job title for the win*

      I have a highly specialized/niche role at the intersection of two complex systems (health care and government) and the total number of people in my specific industry can comfortably fit together in a hotel ballroom. My husband is really the only one who understands what I do; even my parents and siblings will tell people I work for [well-known hospital] and hope they aren’t asked for more details. I love my job and my tiny group of peers, though. :)

    82. Ktelzbeth*

      My mom understands well because our jobs are very similar. I’ve followed in her footsteps. My dad understands fairly well because he’s married to my mom and in medicine as well, just a different specialty. My brother is also in medicine and has my mom as a mom, so he also generally understands. Beyond that, I think understanding is limited.

    83. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      I’m an archaeologist. Even though I have been interested in this field since I was a kid, so 30-odd years, half my family still thinks it has to do with dinosaurs and the other half thinks I’m either Indiana Jones or I do all my digging with a paint brush.

    84. Mrs. Fenris*

      90% of the people I know have no grasp of how I spend my work day. I’m a veterinarian, so most people think I am either playing with puppies and kittens or doing awful, heart-rending euthanasias. My mom thinks I spend my days giving “rabies shots” and “worm medicine” and has no idea why I get so tired and stressed. What I do: see appointments, talk on the phone, do a lot of directing and delegating, do surgery, fill forms out, and spend a lot of time just thinking really hard. The challenge with veterinary medicine is not “all of those different kinds of animals,” it’s all of the specialties I juggle in a single day. No human doctor does infectious disease, endocrinology, cardiology, surgery, and pediatrics in a single morning.

      1. Mrs. Fenris*

        (I should add that yes, I do play with puppies and kittens, I do plenty of euthanasias (and hey look, euthanasia season is coming up!), and I do vaccines and deworming too.)

            1. dawbs*

              Makes sense to me.
              When we had to have our pup put down, it wasn’t because of carrying her 50 lb ass up and down icy steps a gazillion times a day (we just did that, because, you know, you do that), but her inability to walk was magnified by icy walks and crummy weather (because ‘make sure she gets some exercise, but doesn’t over-exert’ is harder when it’s sleeting and your dog gives you “WTF, do you hate me?” look when you try to make her go outside :P), and it probably hastened things.
              (And it sucked, but, it was the right decision at the right time. And I am at peace with it–and how many puppies abandoned at 2 weeks old, who have some pretty impressive health issues make it into a happy loved teenage years?)

              (Not to bring things down and fall down a rabbit hole :)

          2. Mrs. Fenris*

            We do plenty all year, of course, but we do a ton more around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Nobody is really sure why. The cold weather probably stresses a lot of animals that were already having problems. Also, sometimes family comes home for the first time in awhile, looks at the dog, and asks how long Fluffy has been that thin. :-(

    85. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I work in local TV broadcasting, so I’ve had friends/family who are curious come in & watch a newscast. They’re even more confused when they leave. Impressed, but confused. “How do you know how to do all that” is a very common reaction. For strangers, I just say that I yell at people for a living even though my yelling days are long, long over.

    86. Network Engineer*

      They know I have something to do with the internet, which no one really understands, so I might as well be a wizard from Mars. My parents are pretty good troopers, but even trying to tell them about something that happened involves a 20 minute explanation of what I’m even talking about, which I’m not sure they even digest. My mom’s learned to laugh at the right parts though. I don’t even bother with friends unless they are technically-inclined themselves.

    88. Optimistic Prime*

      I don’t think anyone in my family actually understands what I do. Mostly I think they think I just play video games all day, which…is not what I do.

    89. Epsilon Delta*

      I find it difficult to adequately describe my job! I am a programmer but I work on a quite obscure type of software. I can either describe it with a short story (and about 80% of people will get it) or I can just say I make software for teapot users which is my company’s main product (and one that even your grandma knows what it is).

      My close friends and relatives have heard the short-story version of my job, but I think their takeaway is that my job involves a lot of code releases.

    90. Clever Girl*

      I’m pretty sure that no one in my family know what I do, except work 10-14 hour days, go to a lot of meetings, and work with Excel and PowerPoint, despite the fact I work on DoD project that has been in the news a lot recently. It was even referenced in a recent NCIS LA episode a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been on this project for over 20 years lol.

      1. Clever Girl -> BatteryB*

        Not the Clever Girl who posted above me. For future posts, I’ll change my name to BatteryB

    91. EasilyAmused*

      When I was a lighting and compositing artist for feature films, everyone knew I worked on movies but I don’t think anyone at all had any idea what a day in the life looked like or what goes into creating CG (hint: it’s not a magic computer pen and it’s not a glamorous lifestyle – think 80+ hour weeks sitting in dark rooms for months without any breaks). My husband got it but only because he worked on the set side of things and had years of my stories blathered at him. I’m now a Software Developer and I’m not sure my job duties have become any more clear to anyone. LOL!

    92. bookends*

      I’m a union representative/business agent. My parents both have a vague idea of what I do because they’ve both worked in union workplaces before. My partner knows much more of the day to day. I represent workers in the health care sector, though, and my grandmother thought I sold health insurance or assisted people in finding it or something for a while.

  2. Horizons*

    I have an interview! It’s a middle management position, and during the interview I will be formally meeting with my would-be team. Any suggestions for questions I could ask to give me insight into the group dynamics and culture? (I’m planning to ask about communication patterns, and strengths and challenges for the team.)

    2. Jadelyn*

      This might be the same thing you already mean when you say “communication patterns”, but I’d ask about systems. Do they have regular team check-ins? Shared documents to track things needing done, or something like Trello? How do they break up work amongst themselves in the absence of managerial directive?

      I’d also ask how long everyone’s been at the company. If everyone’s been there less than a year, you’ve maybe got an opportunity to shape the team dynamic from the ground up – or you may have deeper org-wide problems causing a lot of turnover. If everyone’s been there for 20 years or more, you may need to be prepared for resistance to change.

    4. FTW*

      Are you meeting with each 1:1, or with the team as a group?

      Depending, the types of questions you might ask are different.

      Questions that would work for either:
      – Does upper management seem to understand the challenges of your group? (Helps you get a sense of organizational alignment, communication, and culture)
      – What have been the group’s biggest achievements?
      – what other teams does your group interface with, and how does that go?

    5. WITney Houston*

      I would just advise you that this team “meeting” is actually an interview. In one of my past roles , our VP had been looking for a director to manage our high-performing team for nearly a year but most candidates were decided against by our team (upper management liked the person, but we didn’t). Our team was lucky that our VP had our back and realized that whoever was hired needed to be a fit with our team overall.

      The candidates who most turned us off were ones who treated it like they were already hired and having their first day introduction meeting with our team – telling us how they were going to drastically improve our work or make sweeping changes. Again, we were considered the best team at a leading multi-billion dollar organization. We did not want to be told how everything should be overhauled by someone who didn’t know us or our company.

      So I guess my advice is to treat this as an interview, and anticipate that the team could have a lot of influence in the hiring decision (especially since the company is making it part of the interview process).

      1. Horizons*

        Oh my goodness, yes! I definitely see it as an interview, and while interviewing goes both ways, I assume most of the time will be spent answering their questions. But I’ve found that it’s always good to have a list of questions for any spare time.

        1. WITney Houston*

          Yeah, I just thought it would be helpful to let you know what turned my team off to candidates :)

          Best of luck!!!

    6. Specialk9*

      My experience with high performing teams. From the outside, managing looks like barking orders and making all the decisions. From the inside, managing is about herding cats, fixing problems, and keeping things on task. It is a curiously serving-supporting-nurturing role.

      So the question for the team (your future subordinates who decide whether you’re hired):
      “What could someone in this role do to make things work better, and make your job easier or more effective?”

  3. Apple*

    Semi-related to one of the short answer questions earlier: what would you say is a reasonable / non-red-flag-raising level of turnover?

    In my last job there was also a split of people who have been there for decades and those who are relatively ‘new’, however I think the average for the newer staff is around 2 to 3 years. I was there for 5 years (but was probably ready to leave after 3 years had the opportunity presented itself).

    I started a new job a few weeks ago so I’m not sure what the turnover here is, but there have been a few departures since I started and when they do the leaving speeches it sounds like 3 to 5 years is pretty common here.

    1. Murphy*

      It’s so field dependent. I’m in a field where people tend to stay, though not always in the same exact position. Most people who have been here a short amount of time are new position or replacing retirees.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      I think it depends on the job. Is the turnover expected or surprising (as in when someone is hired, how long are they expected to stay)?

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I’d be more interested in why people leave and why people stay, rather than duration and turnover. Turnover can be disruptive, but so is having folks sticking around who are no longer a fit for their position. If people are leaving because the environment is crappy or people are mean to each other, that’s definitely a red flag. But if people are mostly leaving due to getting great opportunities elsewhere, that’s not such a bad thing, especially if they’re sticking in your field. It can create a great interconnected network.

      Similarly, if people stick around because they’re happy and feel like they can continue to grow within the organization, great. But if longevity is mostly caused by a lack of performance management, that’s not so great.

      1. REd 5*

        Yup, same. There’s high turnover in some areas at my job and it’s related to specific people and policies that don’t impact my everyday life, or that of my immediate department. That’s an easy thing for me to pay attention to but not necessarily worry too much about.

        And when people do leave it’s very rarely a burn all the bridges on the way out of the building type exit. They usually come back to visit regularly and are welcomed with open arms. That says a lot about the culture.

      2. Blue_eyes*

        This. Also look at who is staying and who is leaving. Excellent, high performing, nice people are staying? Probably a great place to work. Those people are leaving after a short stay? BIG red flag.

    4. Thlayli*

      Easy way to work it out is to think about how long do you expect people to reasonably stay at a particular job and what sort of opportunities for advancement are there in that department. For example if you have 20 llama cuddlers which is a junior position with no experience, and most would be expected to want to move on within 5 years, then you would expect on average one to leave every 3 months. If there are only 2 llama grooming positions in the organisation and people would expect to stay in that role for about 10 years, only one out of 20 llama cuddlers will become a llama groomer. The other 95% will leave for a different organisation.

    5. Death Lawyer*

      I also think it’s generation specific. From my experience, millennials and gen-Xers tend to move around more, since they weren’t raised with the same expectation of company loyalty that boomers were. I’m an attorney and I know a lot of big firms are struggling with turnover among younger lawyers because it’s not something they have really experienced up until the last decade or so. At my firm, most of the associates have been here for five years or less, where the older partners have spent their entire careers here. This could, of course, be specific to my field!

      1. Wilbur*

        My experience is that it’s not necessarily the age, but the type of employment. A lot of younger people in my area are hired as indefinite term contractors, where they’re making 20% less with worse benefits. A lot of people in my area haven’t gotten a raise in 2-4 years. Personally, the only real raise I’ve gotten in 3 years was when I got laid off and rehired. Only recently have things started changing, with opportunities for advancement opening up. In a world where you can’t rely on a company to take care of you, why stick around? Loyalty has to be earned.

        1. Rachel in NYC*

          I think this, and find at my current job, that advancement is a big part of the question. Some companies don’t have an upward mobility track for employees so they mobility comes from getting a more senior position elsewhere. To me, it’s more important if your employer is aware of the lack of advancement opportunities. (This is an issue at my current job and they’re aware of it but it’s a university so up isn’t an option always so they’re supportive when positions open up at other schools.)

      2. Rosamond*

        There’s a huge generational gap at my Org, but not because of different approaches to jobs & longevity. It’s because all of the upper management levels/c-suite are occupied by Boomers who’ve been here for 10 years minimum and who are nowhere close to retirement (there are several colleagues of mine who have been working *at this org* for longer than I’ve been alive). There’s a very limited level to which anyone can rise, and it becomes obvious to new hires very quickly. The only open positions are entry and middling-experienced, which are mostly filled by millenials & gen Xers, until they want to actually progress – then the only option is to leave.

    6. CoffeeLover*

      I think 3 to 5 years is respectable. Particularly if you’re dealing with non-strategic positions (I would expect a director to stay longer than a developer). I think there’s also such a thing as staying too long these days. Places that have 10+ year average tenures tend to be stuck in their ways. Less willing to change and more prone to group think. Less than 3 years points to problems. I worked at a place where the average tenure was 2 years (many left after a year). Needless to say they left for a reason.

    7. Tired Scientist*

      It also depends on location. There are places where a particular company is the only one within reasonable driving distance that employs a particular skill set. Those companies will have low turnover because, in order to leave, people have to be irritated enough to completely uproot and move elsewhere.

    8. Ghost Town*

      I think that not only is it industry specific, but also depends on where people are going. That the departures are having speeches is a good sign, because to me it says that it is employee motivated and a natural career progression instead of desperation to get out of a bad situation.

      In my current position, there was 100% turn over for my specific unit (I’m the only one whose sole responsibility is this one program and I report to people who manage multiple portfolios – higher education is fun!). But… those that left did so for opportunities they couldn’t pass up and that sought them out. Their tenures were short, but around the office generally (multiple academic programs), the tenure ranges from a handful of years to over 20. Because I had been talking to some of the people involved for a while, I do feel like I got a more candid explanation of everything and saw the turnover as a result of actual professional mentorship and development within the office.

      I was in my previous position for one month shy of 8 years. Like you, I was ready to leave a few years earlier, had the opportunity presented itself, but I also pursued new opportunities at varying levels (and had a baby in 2014, at which point I decided not to rock the employment boat because I genuinely liked what I did and had immense flexibility to attend to new baby needs).

    9. Q*

      So, at my company, we have tons of people who have been working for this company for just decades (I’ve been here just shy of 6 months now)

      And yet, they don’t seem to be going anywhere with their careers.

      For instance, my job in entry-level (I’m only 24; this makes sense to me, and I’m fine with this role), but the other with my same job title has been here seven. And our team lead, who has our job with only marginally more responsibilities, has been here her entire career and she’s retiring in four years.

      I’ve been going through our files, and one of the people above me was doing my job in ’99, but she’s only one step above me, and in fact we just hired someone even younger than I to do her same role.

      This seems exceptionally strange to me, but I’m only 24 and don’t have a lot of experience. Is this a red flag RE: advancement issues here?

        1. Nacho*

          Same. I don’t know if the website is having problems right now, or if we both just messed up. Oh well.

    10. Nacho*

      We in the middle of a pretty major reorganization at my office, and one of the things we’re doing is focusing on “communication styles.” Everyone is either a driver, analytical, expressive, or amiable, and we’re being told things like how we need to flex our communication style, or that our style will impact how feedback is given to us.

      Anyone else’s office do anything like this? Is it as stupid as I’m thinking it is, or should I give it a chance?

      1. Nacho*

        Sorry, I could have sworn I did this as a new thread. Not sure how it ended up a reply to someone. My bad.

  4. AdAgencyChick*

    I’m running into a potential issue with my direct reports and the potential appearance of favoritism.

    Outside of work, I’m involved in a performing group that specializes in a style that not a lot of people my age are interested in — let’s say we’re llama acrobats. As part of my membership in the group, I’m required to sell several tickets to each of our acrobatic shows, or pay for them myself if I’m unable to sell them.

    I’ve mentioned being part of the group to my coworkers, although I never initiate a conversation trying to get them to buy tickets because that would be obnoxious. (It’s more like they hear it from me in the context of, “I can’t stay past 6 tonight, gotta run to llama practice!”) But, lo and behold, one of my reports (my grand-report? I’m his grandboss) happens to be really into llama acrobatics, and asked me to sell her a ticket to our first performance of the season, which I did.

    Now she’s asking about coming to more of my shows. Normally, upon finding a regular customer for llama tickets, I’d be ecstatic. But, I’m worried about the appearance of favoritism — I don’t want anyone on my team feeling like they should attend llama shows (much less PAY to attend a llama show) to curry favor with me. I also don’t want to tell this person, “No, you cannot come to my llama show” when she seems to be genuinely interested in the performance!

    WWYD, hivemind?

    1. Mongoose*

      Is there a different way for them to purchase tickets (vs. directly through you)? I imagine that could help feel less icky.

      1. Infinity Anon*

        I agree that if there is another way she can buy tickets it would fix the problem. Since you need to sell tickets I think that it is getting too much into a grey area for comfort.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          There are a couple of ways she could do so:
          1) Buy through the group’s website. This would significantly increase the ticket price, since we perform at a well-known venue that tacks on all kinds of “convenience” fees.
          2) Buy through another performer in the group. This seems a bit convoluted (she doesn’t know anyone else in the group, so I’d have to either introduce them or secure the tickets from the other performer and then sell them to my grand-report), but I could make that happen if necessary.

          1. Thlayli*

            Definitely don’t act as a broker for the tickets – the whole point is to take you out of the equation altogether!

            1. REd 5*

              IDK, I don’t think just introducing somebody else who sells the tickets and then letting them deal with it is acting as a broker, and I think it’s a fine medium.

              I also don’t see a problem with letting the person buy tickets from you as long as you keep things above board because anybody could buy tickets if they wanted, and there are likely ways to have enough of a trail to show that you aren’t behaving differently towards your employee. But then, I work in an office where this would be totally not a thing to worry about, we actively try to support each other’s outside endeavors regularly.

              I think that the way to do it if you’re worried, just to ease your own mind, would be to think of somebody else in your llama group that you know is trustworthy and answers communications well, and then just tell your subordinate “Hey, if you want more tickets, why don’t you buy them from Joan? She’d be happy to help you out. I’ll send you both an email to introduce you to each other.” And tell Joan “Hey, one of my co-workers wants to buy some tickets, and I don’t want it to be weird so I thought I’d pass her on to you instead, is that cool?” Then one quick email saying “Hey guys, have fun working out the details!” and peace out, and you’re good to go, IMHO.

              1. Thlayli*

                Introducing them is fine, but “securing the tickets from the other performer and then selling them to the employee” would be acting as a broker.

          2. Infinity Anon*

            Either introduce her to another performer or direct her to the website. Then there are no potential issues.

          3. Chriama*

            I think you need to take yourself out of the equation. Tell her you can’t sell her any more tickets and offer her alternatives if she’s interested. That might mean she can’t buy the discounted ones anymore. If there’s like a social media group or something where she could meet other enthusiasts and lead about how to get discounted tickets that way, that would be great. But if not, I think no one is entitled to discounted tickets and quashing the appearance of favorititism is more important than letting her indulge in her hobby at a cheaper price.

          4. Observer*

            Yes, you really need to either direct her to the site or make an introduction and bow out. Besides what others think, it’s just way to easy for her to start thinking that you have a special relationship.

          5. Megan*

            Given this, I think it’d be weird to not sell her the ticket. I think you want to continue making sure there’s no pressure for her to buy and there’s no favoritism, but I’d be pretty put off if my grandboss wouldn’t sell me tickets that I was interested in and now I had to pay more for them, and I’d think it was weird if he wouldn’t sell to a coworker.

    2. Mr. Demeanor*

      It sounds like your boss would attend whether or not you were involved. Sell her the ticket with a clean conscience. Break a (llama) leg.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Is it obvious you are required to sell tickets? Because I wouldn’t think this is assumed. And if people don’t know, I can’t imagine they would even think that attending a llama show would actually be in any way a favor to you.

          1. Lily Rowan*

            Yeah, in that case, it would read more like you’re doing her a favor — helping avoid the ticket fees — which you might still want to avoid, but at least there’s no implication that she’s helping you out by buying the ticket from you.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oooh, this is interesting. I am also involved in an activity where there’s ticket-selling that is also not appealing to a lot of younger people. To be honest, I’ve been really lucky; the one time I sold a ticket to a subordinate, my manager went as well (my manager used to go to one event every year– I think she still does, even though I’ve moved). My advice? I don’t really know. I think what makes it tough is that this is probably a public performance, so you can’t bar her from buying. Maybe introduce her to another llama acrobat for her sales? I’m not sure, but I will be watching this closely, especially as it’s coming up hard on my own llama acrobatics season. :) (My peers want to buy tickets this year, and that’s ok by me… plus my current group doesn’t have a ticket sales requirement, thank heavens.)

    5. Amy*

      I definitely don’t think it’s necessary to tell her not to come! She’s interested of her own accord, and presumably would be interested even if you weren’t involved.

      I do think it’s at least possible that her buying the tickets directly from you could give the appearance of currying favor, especially since you have to sell them, so buying your tickets (as opposed to someone else’s tickets or tickets off the main site) could be seen as doing you a favor. If there is a reasonable alternative way for her to get tickets, I think it would be good to point her there. If there’s not…well, it’s borderline enough that I wouldn’t make a huge stink of it, but I’d be very careful not to do anything else that could be interpreted as favoritism.

    6. Nanc*

      Hmmm, if you’re worried about either favoritism or the appearance of strong-arming how about offering her a buy one, get one free deal after she’s attended a few shows? You’d have to eat the cost of one ticket but it might help. Who doesn’t want a free ticket for llama acrobatics?!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Oh! This just reminded me of something! I did have a couple of subordinates come on my dime one year; three of them expressed interest in going so I gave them the tickets as one of their holiday gifts (managers gave gifts to their teams every year). It sounds kind of self-serving, but they loved it. Totally forgot about that one…

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          I actually find it surprising and fascinating that so many people think the money is the problem! (If it is, I’d be happy to just give her the ticket, also — but it becomes more of a financial bite if more than one or two of my team members decided they wanted one.)

          I was wondering whether it’s an issue that one of my reports takes an interest in this particular pastime of mine enough to attend performances, and at least some of the others do not. Does it look to the others like they’re missing out on a chance to “get in good” with me simply because they don’t care about llama acrobatics?

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            It’s not the money that’s the problem at all; it’s the idea that a subordinate is SPENDING money to see you. To me, that makes it trickier. In my case, I gave tickets to several people, because I didn’t want them to spend money to see me, which could appear like they were trying to buy my love or something. By making a gift of the tickets to several people, in my case, I was making it more equal. I think.

    7. Blossom*

      I would think nothing of any of this. It would not cross my mind that it could look like favouritism, and I still don’t think so even upon consideration.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        Yeah I’m not seeing a big problem either. If it was every month and you were pressuring the people in your office to buy tickets that would be one thing, but this seems pretty innocuous. If the OP is a performer they won’t be spending extra time with the subordinate anyway, unless they see them after the show.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          Huh, interesting. I was afraid this might be like the boss who goes out drinking with one employee and not others: might the others think that I’m partial to this person because she’s attending my performances and the others are not? But it sounds like the time spent bonding is the issue there, which is definitely not part of the equation here. (She was long gone by the time I was able to get off the stage and out of the building!)

          But I do know that I of course cannot attend OTHER llama acrobatics performances with this person :)

          1. Llama fan*

            I don’t see a problem with going to a show with her, either! Rarely and with professional conduct. What a great way to develop a peer relationship with someone in a more senior position.

    8. Anon anon anon*

      Could you give her a free ticket? Or counter the cost somehow? Like introducing her to people, giving her a tour, etc.? I would definitely support her interest in it, both as a grand-boss and a participant in the activity. Just find a way to make it less financially weird and have firm boundaries. Have a separate friendship (maybe that’s too strong of a word) outside of work.

      But this brings up another issue. You’re in a group that holds people responsible for selling tickets or covering the cost. So this type of issue won’t go away. Are there alternatives to that model? Could this group do things differently? Could you join a new group or start a new group? I would seriously look into the other options.

  5. A call for quirky bosses!*

    I’m sure we’ve all had some interesting bosses, I would love to know some of their quirks and weird things they do/make you do.

    Here is mine: not the worst boss but definitely quirky!

    1) Another girl and I started on the same day for this job at a big company. He made us do a scavenger hunt, trying to answer random questions about which department does x or y, who is responsible for x or y, I thought it was a fun way to get to know people until I realized that he loved to play bizarre games that aren’t related to the work we did. One time he made new girl and me play a “how well we could listen to instructions” game which was something he was very big on and always preached it in emails and meetings. So he sat us down in the conference room and told us that we needed to write down exactly what we hear him say. One of the things was the spelling of his Ukrainian wife’s 30 letter last name. Needless to say we got it wrong and got an hour long lecture about how we needed to listen better (he also made us take copious notes and send him summaries of the notes, which he was very picky on how the summaries were done and would make us redo them if it wasn’t up to par with his standards).

    2) A few times, he would send our team of 4 people hypothetical questions that were related to the industry but had no part of any work we did at the company (and we had a deadline). We had to stop all work we were doing. Whoever had the correct or best answer received a reward like a half day off or leaving a few hours early on a Friday.

    3) We had a chat system for the company that automatically logged us in every time we sign into our computers. For some reason, boss thought everyone on the team was chatting it up and made us sign off (every day!). One time I didn’t and he sent me a jabber message during a deadline for a non-relevant thing he made us do and said “15 min left” and I responded “ok!” then he goes “YOU NEED TO SIGN OFF YOU’RE NOT WORKING!!” lol! This made me chuckle, should I have not responded to your message dude?

    4) If he ever got upset with you, he would make you feel like absolute shit. Digging you a hole and dumping horse manure all over you. He was a very loud talker so other people could hear him being condescending and rude (on the phone and by your desk). Super embarrassing to be treated like a 5 year old. Then the next day, he would call you into his office not to apologize but to tell you how wonderful you are and how you’re so good at doing x and y. Manipulative much?

    5) He always picked favorites depending on what mood he was in. These favorites changed every couple of weeks and they got to work on more confidential projects for the higher ups.

    6) Whenever we had meetings, we would book the conference room through a system online. Almost every time he would want us to book a different conference room at the last minute. The rooms he wanted were usually already booked and so we had to email the person who booked it asking if they could move their meeting. Lol!!

    7) He NEVER let any of the new people do actual work. It was always a “oh you need more training for this and I’m in meetings all day” or “oh you’re not ready for this” so in the 6 months that I worked under him, the only thing I learned was how to take good notes and write good summaries :P

    1. Second Lunch*

      I once had a boss who would pay us to do crazy things. Like, “I bet you can’t stuff 8 cookies into your mouth at once” or “I dare you to drink pickle juice”. It would be auction style where he’d ask how much people would be willing to do it for, then the lowest “bidder” got a chance to complete the challenge for the money.

        1. Second Lunch*

          It was the definition of techbro culture. I say this as a female whose exit interview included the boss commenting on how he knew I would move on since I was more “polished” than the rest of the group.

          1. A call for quirky bosses!*

            Glad you were able to move on! Did his boss know he had cookies in your mouth stuffing challenges? lol, still can’t get over that. ridiculous.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      My last boss was so much like Michael Scott from the Office that it was painful to be around. Thankfully he wasn’t as boundary-violating, but he did do some weird things in order to make people like him. He always seemed desperate for approval, so he would drop comments about his clothes or glasses or mug choice or whatever and see if people picked up on them. I remember him one time walking around with a pink travel mug, and holding it out so awkwardly that you knew he wanted you to notice it. We were having a meeting and he kept taking these big, dramatic sips from it. When no one said anything, he randomly said, “Oh this pink mug! It’s my wife’s. it was the only clean mug at home. Not that I’m not confident enough to be worried about what people think about a pink mug!” We all just stared at him, like wtf? No one cares about the mug. It’s like he really wanted us to comment about how it’s pink and feminine. He made other weird comments like that about various things, and it always made things really tense and weird, and we just had to move past it.

      2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        I get hardcore second-hand embarrassment watching scenes like that on TV, but I think I would melt into the floor if I had to witness something that awkward in person.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Me too, and he was SOOOO cringey. One time he made a comment about our director – in front of our director – that he was basically copying everything the director did/wore because he wanted to be him. It was SO WEIRD.

          This guy was very hung up on appearances. I began to notice he would copy people – mostly our director. Like if Director got some new glasses – Cringey showed up with the same glasses a week later. New phone? Cringey got the same one, and made a show of using it during meetings. Director grew a beard? Guess who grew one. It was too bizarre to be a coincidence.

        1. Tiny Soprano*

          Sounds like an old stage director I worked with once. Director Hellman once made my colleage Daenerys gallop around a piece of set for forty minutes straight, knowing full well she had dodgy knees, all because he was after a particular Gangnam-style side-to-side wobble that, with her knees, Daenerys could not physically do. Two weeks of utter hell.

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        at OldJob I had a “Michael Scott-like” boss. He was less interested in the business and more interested in playing practical jokes. One time he said he had a spectacular April Fool’s Day prank all planned, but decided against it because he didn’t know how all of us would take it. Said our group had varying degrees of senses of humor.

      3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Yeah, that does sound just plain terrible! He sounds like a bully, especially with the thing about moving conferences rooms at the last minute. Like he KNEW the room was booked, and he just wanted to show people how powerful he was by having them move their room.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Seriously. Quirky bosses can be odd or exasperating, but overall charming. This guy just sounds like an asshole boss.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I’m sorry the further I got down your list all I could think was ‘This guy is insane and horrible, not quirky.” And he wasn’t your WORST boss? Ugh. I’m sorry you had to work for him!

      1. A call for quirky bosses!*

        @Dani, he actually was MY worst boss but in the general sense of worst bosses, not the worst from what I’ve read on here :)

    5. Ingray*

      My former boss has a thing where she wants you to be a True Believer in whatever policy she is implementing or decision she or the higher ups have made. I used to assume (foolishly) that I could voice my disent (appropriately) or ask a lot of questions as long as I went along with the decision and presented it positively to the people I managed. It used to irritate her I guess and finally she addressed it with me by telling me that it wasn’t good enough and she wanted me to basically agree with every decision she or the company made. She felt that she had the right as my boss to dictate not just my actions, but my feelings. I left a few months ago and now she is doing the same thing to my replacement.

      1. ElinorD*

        I used to work in a small ad agency, where I was an admin. I was assigned to assist a dept of one as part of my duties. That “one,” wasn’t really supposed to be my boss, but she thought I was. She loved having a minion. At one point, one of our biggest client’s account team was short staffed, so i was assigned to help them. (In my spare time lol.) Dept of One lady was furious, and instead of finding ways to make it work she made it her mission to make me screw up, so she could point to the owners and say, “See? You shouldn’t have given her that extra assignment.” She went off on a work trip and called me, *demanding* that certain documents be overnighted to her very remote hotel by 8am. Long story short, in order to get documents to her on time, I had to drive to the airport to get them on the overnight delivery service plane in time. I made it. The next morning, she called me, and I asked, “Did you get documents?” She said, “Oh, we left before 8am.” I lost it in front of my *actual* boss, who said, “It’s time to bring this up to mangement.” That meeting turned into a “why Elinor sucks at everything” meeting and I got written up. She was something.

    6. Beaded Librarian*

      At my current job we had a new director for one month that is now frequently referred to at the hurricane. I work at a library.
      She decided she wanted to make room for a large maker space ASAP and the only way to do that was to do a massive weeding. Potentially not a huge deal. However she managed to weed 7000 items in a month! And the weed edging job was so bad and haphazard that when we were looking at what might need to be weeded in prep for doing an inventory for the first time since at least 1998 (long story there too) we discovered at least 3000 items that had NEVER been checked out in the computerized system. Now clearly the staff member who should have been doing weeding as part of their job had not been bu the director didn’t bother to pull good lists. It took me about 5 minutes to do it and those kind of reports are only tangentially related to my official job duties.

      She also happily threatened a coworkers job in my presence where I couldn’t easily remove myself as I was at my desk and had reason to leave it via the back way the they were standing right by the other exit area.

      She yelled loudly at patrons across the library and wouldn’t listen to the complaints from patrons about very fast changes she made than did not help patrons and in some ways made things more difficult.

      Apparently she was asked to resign after only a month but did not bother to tell anyone I needed the library except for me because she wanted contact info for someone that she had been talking to about a possible collaboration. That was awkward because I had no idea if I should tell any of my coworkers.

      Thank god it was only a month. I was lucky she decided she like me for some reason but it was very stressful even for me.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        7000 items in a month isn’t weeding – it’s more like strip-mining! I mean, when I was doing the weeding in my one and only library job, I was super ruthless but I didn’t get anywhere close to that! (Weeding was basically my favorite task in the library.)

        1. Beaded Librarian*

          You are total correct, and she wasn’t paying any attention at ALL, she weeded several recently purchased books for no reason that I could see plus several books by/about players of our well loved state football team. It was ridiculous.

          I should add that my understanding is that some of it was back issues of magazines (we went from like 2 years back issues to 6 months) but I’m pretty sure it was a minimum of 3-4,000 of just books. We’re actually doing some pretty heavy properly done weeding right now to get right of those volumes that should have been gotten rid of years ago and I don’t thing that it’s been over 600 items a month during the process.

    7. Admin Happens*

      Wow that adds up to very bad.

      My fave/worst is when I spent a Sunday afternoon coordinating my boss to get his golf club fitting which I had been pinging him on for weeks- lots of texts and calls back and forth between the club and got him a last minute appointment.

      Only to be chewed out on Monday because I hadn’t explicitly told him he needed to bring his clubs to the club fitting.

      1. crookedfinger*

        Well OF COURSE it was your fault… I mean, who would ever think to bring clubs to a club fitting? That’s ridiculous!

      2. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        I had a “Michael Scott” boss too. Every time someone came back from the rest room he would ask “Did everything come out OK?” I mean EVERY DARN TIME!!! He would laugh his head off too. Don’t miss him at all.

    8. Cassie*

      My weirdest boss was when I was a server. My husband would pick me up when I worked nights, because otherwise I would have had to walk several blocks in the dark, alone, carrying rolls of cash. He came into the foyer and waited for me to finish closing chores, then escorted me to whatever parking spot he’d found.

      The manager of the restaurant was absolutely insistent that my husband was constantly inebriated, because he has mobility problems. He had a badly broken leg that never healed right, and in bad weather he limps quite badly. In good weather, he still struggles with stairs and with high chairs/restaurant stools (where he would sit to wait for me). She would see him lurching in to pick me up, and 4 out of 5 times would pull me aside and whisper about how she thought he had been drinking. It was ridiculous.

      1. 2 Cents*

        Wow, that’s horrible. Not that you had to tell her, but if you did mention he had mobility issues and she still did this? Ugh.

    9. Anon anon anon*

      In a public sector job, I had a boss who refused to talk to me. Refused to be in the building at the same time as me. When we did cross paths, she would complain about it in front of me. I have no idea how this happened, but she was able to get some kind of, “I can’t be in the presence of this person,” thing on paper but remained officially my boss. I never said or did anything odd that I know of during the conversations I had with her when I started. My grand-boss took on boss duties. But, being a public sector job, my responsibilities were very well defined and there weren’t often any reasons to talk to a supervisor. But she made her disgust at me so obvious, and without giving any clues as to why, I’m still creeped out.

  6. Blue Anne*

    I’m a 28 year old woman in Cleveland. I have a growing rental business (nine units), and I’m doing fine as a bookkeeper/accountant. I’m a little underpaid but I have a fine job at a small firm with flexibility and health insurance.

    Would it be crazy to quit and start over with an electrical apprenticeship? Because I absolutely hate working in an office but I love the hands-on work I do on my rentals.

    1. Look What You Made Me Do*

      As long as you could sustain yourself while you were doing the apprenticeship I don’t think it’s crazy at all. You’re only 28! Go for it!

    2. SometimesALurker*

      I don’t think so! Certainly, there’s some risk/reward stuff you’ll need to take into account about the timing of your change, like how much of a savings buffer you’ll want and it’s practical to create (if any) before quitting your job. You should work in a career that you don’t hate a big part of, if you can help it.

    3. FormerOP*

      Check the economic data/forecasts for your city. Mine has a projected electrician shortage within 10 years and avg pay for master electrician is 50,000 per year. More info might help your decision. FWIW, make sure you are comfortable going into crawlspaces, basements, attics.

      1. the raven*

        One also needs to make sure they are comfortable working in extreme heat and cold. It’s not uncommon to be working in a poorly ventilated building at the height of summer with no fans in sight, or in the barest frame of a building with no walls in the middle of winter.

        Also, if one has a fear of port-a-potties, don’t apply. You’ll rarely be working somewhere with a real bathroom and running water. :/

    4. selina kyle*

      That sounds amazing. You’ve had some experience with it, you have the rentals to help sustain you. I say go for it! Best of luck!

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’d do some night classes just to be sure that you would be happy doing the work and math. It’s such a great skill to have whether you change careers or stay in your current position! But if you are sure that it is the path for you, then there isn’t much risk. We will always need electricians and there are so many opportunities with it- you can be in business for yourself, with a company, you can work for a hospital or university, you could be doing development or aeronautics…

    6. LCL*

      If you don’t have any other experience in this trade other than working for yourself, don’t quit yet. Contact the union and local community colleges and see if you can take a ‘math for electrical trades’ or whatever they call it class. If you can do accounting and bookkeeping the math will be easy for you, but different from what you are doing. It’s will be a lot of trig and simple algebra. While you are taking the class hopefully you can learn more about the employment prospects and what you will have to do to get hired for an apprenticeship.

      I remember from your previous posts that sometimes when people are jerks at work it can really affect you. It would be helpful to learn how to not let someone’s shi$$& behavior ruin your whole day. Because otherwise being an apprentice can be hard on your self worth. It’s not an abusive atmosphere, don’t get me wrong. But you will be reminded most days that you aren’t running things yet.

      1. Blue Anne*

        A lot of good stuff here, thank you. We have a really good community college here so I’ll see what I can take. I looked over the apprenticeship requirements at the local union and I meet all of them, but it would be good to actually do some of the studying.

        I have wondered about the social thing. It’s probably my main concern. But my experience so far is that if I can understand that it’s part of the environment, or part of my boss’s general character, rather than me being an incompetent idiot, I’m pretty okay with it. Does that make sense? I have a grumpy boss here and I can take him yelling at me because I know I do okay work and he’s, well, grumpy.

    7. orlily*

      I’m on team Not Crazy. Obviously, you’ll want to do some research to see how viable it is and chart a path to getting there, but not at all crazy.

      One thing to consider: the few licensed electricians I know do not work on their own properties due to insurance / liability issues. (ex: so the insurance company can’t declare that you purposefully burnt your house down by making a wiring error) You may want to account for things like that if you were considering the savings on your own property.

    8. Ashley*

      The trades generally need people. You can make a good living, but I do believe the work ages people faster then office work. I would definitely looking at exploring it. Worst case learn the work, go back to an office job, and you just do side work. (Watch the family / friend freebies because it can get out of hand.)

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I just said this to a friend and then thought it in response to a resume I was reviewing – it always makes sense if you quit your job to do something radically different and then end up wanting to go back to your old career. You gave it a shot! But still have the previous skills to get back in.

          1. nonegiven*

            Electricians have CEUs, accountants have CEUs. I’d keep up with both. You might not want to be crawling around in attics or climbing up and down ladders all day in your 60s.

            1. Blue Anne*

              Well, I’ll still be doing all the bookkeeping for my property business, so I will try to keep up on accounting stuff. (And hopefully by the time I’m in my 60s I’ll have a hundred or so properties!)

    9. voluptuousfire*

      Go for it. Life is too short and you can potentially get into a union, which can be a great thing.

    10. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Not crazy at all, I say go for it. My husband quit construction after 20 years to go back to school for computer programming. He was in his early 40s and successfully made the transition. It was a little lean while he was in school (we hadn’t met yet and he was single), but he did it, and so can you. You also have the benefit of having other sources of income and a current profession that isn’t restricted to daytime hours, so freelancing might be possible also. I think the value in doing something you love really outweighs the negatives here. Which really, are probably mostly in your head (I’m too old, it’s crazy to leave a stable job, etc. – none of this is necessarily true).

    11. zora*

      Not Crazy!!! The trades always need people, especially women, and not enough women are encouraged to check it out! I’ve mentioned this before, but there are “Women in Trades” groups all over the country, some are more just support networks, others do more concrete things like specific open houses or offer women-only training classes. You should definitely look for some to join, I think that could make a huge difference. From what I know from friends, the trades can still be really big on networking and ‘knowing people’, which is why the groups for women are so important.

      Best of luck and keep us posted!!

    12. Natalie*

      It’s definitely not crazy, but just a couple of comments from my spouse’s experience as an apprentice electrician.

      – I obviously don’t know if things work the same way in your state, but in MN you get put on a list for an apprenticeship and then you have to wait for your number to come up. That can take a long time (my husband waited over a year). So probably don’t quit your job until you actually have a start date for your apprenticeship.

      – Electrician work, especially in the first few years, is really physically hard. A lot of your job as a newbie is carrying around a shitton of wire and running around the site at the end of the day picking up. So if you’re not in good shape, probably get working on that.

      – The trades can be a difficult place for women. It’s certainly not a reason not to do it, just be ready for it.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Thank you, this is really helpful! I’ve looked into the process for starting an apprenticeship and I know it’s done through the union and pretty much what I have to do, but I’m not sure if there’s a wait. I should call someone there and ask about getting started. Luckily, I’m in good physical shape, very strong for a woman.

        1. A Different Person Definitely Wearing Groucho Marx Glasses*

          Good luck! It’s pretty interesting work, a lot more intellectual than people give it credit for. And there are so many subfields – new construction, remodel, repair, low voltage, residential… once you get through your apprenticeship and journeyman (not sure if they’ve updated this terminology?) you have a lot of options.

    13. the raven*

      Female electrician here. Dont do it. Despite the current and projected shortage of employees in all skilled trades, none of the trades seem to be doing anything to try and appeal to new employees to make them consider going in to the trades as opposed to nearly any other job one can get.

      Pay rates haven’t changed in the 10 years since I started. The gas stations around d where I live have a better starting pay then my company does, and the pay doesn’t improve all that much as you gain experience over the years.

      Plus, and this is my own observations from the company I work at, but women don’t seem to be given a lot of opportunities. Where I work I see the guys with less years in getting better chances to advance then any of the women get, myself included. I’m actually looking to get out of the trade completely, I just don’t know what to try and get into.

      If you really want something hands on, the trade I would recommend is auto mechanic. They seem to be paid well. There are companies everywhere, so if you aren’t treated well you can easily find another job. And from what I know it is a lot easier to start your own business down there road once you have the needed experience.

      If you want more info or have more questions, feel free to reply to this post and I’ll answer back. I’ve got my email included in my info on here but I don’t know if that will allow you to email me. Feel free to do so if it does. Hope this helps.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Hi Raven, can I ask what part of the country you’re in?

        I looked up information from the local union here (it looks like all apprenticeships go through them) and their apprentices start at $13.17 an hour, with raises every six months of 5% of a journeyman’s rate. ($37.63.) I’m on $17 an hour now so that seems pretty fair to me.

        Unfortunately I have zero interest in cars. :(

        1. Natalie*

          Just another data point, the union positions in MN are similar to what you describe with systematic raises and COL increases based on how much experience you have (in work hours). I wonder if raven is non-union.

          1. Blue Anne*

            Thanks, this is good to know.

            I’m not totally clear on how the union jobs work. During the apprenticeship it seems pretty straightforward (and I know that lasts for years) but once you’re journeyman do you go get your own jobs elsewhere? Or does work come through the union?

            I’m a raging socialist so I wouldn’t want to go non-union.

          2. the raven*

            You are correct, I am non Union. Though from what I have seen there wouldn’t be much difference in things for me. I could be getting paid more if I joined the local Union, bit I would lose out on my paid vacation, Holiday’s, and medical insurance. I would rather not be having to pay for all that on my own.

        2. the raven*

          I work on the east coast, and I should have noted I am not union. That said, the Unions around here do pay better, but unless you get in permanently with a company you won’t get any benefits. No medical, dental, paid vacation or holidays. It’s one of the reasons I haven’t join the union. I don’t say that to discourage the Union, especially since it is the only option in some places, just to provide info. If you do consider the Union make sure to ask about how benefits work.

          To answer your question down below,
          if you don’t get a job with a company directly, it is supposed to be he job of the Union to get you all work. If you do work directly for a company it is up to then to find you work.ifthwy can’t, they might send you to the Union hall and have them find you work.

          1. Natalie*

            That’s fascinating, up here the health benefits are through the union and vacation and stuff is determined by the CBA. But basically every electrician here is union, maybe that’s why it’s different.

            1. the raven*

              Benefits are included?! You’re making me want to move back to my birth place (I’m from South Saint Paul). But yeah, where I am at you don’t get those benefits if you work out of the Union Hall. Only if you manage to get a job directly with a Union Company, which is in no way guaranteed.

              Also, Blue Anne, if you do decide to take a class or two at a Community College don’t go for a full degree in Electrical unless you want to become more than a field electrician. The education that they provide you will be the same as what you get from an Apprenticeship as most send you to classes in addition to on the job training. If you go to the college you will just end up spending a bunch of money on something that while helpful, won’t really put you ahead when you get out into the job market. In electrical, a college degree is good, but it’s the field experience that matters the most.

              1. Blue Anne*

                Good advice, thanks! I looked at the community college this afternoon and you can only do their program if you’re already in an apprenticeship program, so I’m going to to do an online “math for techs” type class and see how I get along with that.

              2. Natalie*

                Twin Cities homie! Yes, when my husband was in the IBEW local in Minneapolis the health care was through the union, not his employer. And it was kick ass coverage, for what it’s worth.

                I can’t speak to how it works when you’re licensed since he had to leave due to health issues, but I think it’s for everybody.

    14. Denise (in las vegas)*

      kinda random:

      At the age of 40 I graduated as a Biomedical Engineering Technician. I love it. I get to take apart equipment and then put it back together. I’m currently doing preventative maintenance on Syringe Infusion Pumps (Alaris 8110, look’m up!). There is the right amount of running around the floors of the hospital and sitting on my rear, Oh SHIT! scrambling and cruising along. Lots of hands-on. TONS to learn. Plus? No crawlspaces and I’m not outside in the weather. Or inside in an unair-conditioned space (been there, done that, nope).

      The guys do watch you to see if you’ll pull your own weight and there have been a couple of chauvinistic pigs (they were subtle because they knew they were wrong and that the other guys would call them on their shit). So be prepared for that kind of shit.

      The trades are good for the physically healthy people. Once you start having problems w/your hands? Time for a new career.

      You are not crazy: Go for it! :-D
      Except for the quitting part. Can you hold off on that? Work around your school schedule? Much easier to study when you’re not worrying about the elec bill.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And knees from kneeling to work all the time. OP, knee pads are a necessity or have something to kneel on.

        1. Blue Anne*

          Oh yeah. I already have some knee pads I use when I’m putting plank flooring into my properties. Those things are magical.

      2. Natalie*

        For what it’s worth, the union apprenticeships are a earn-while-you-learn situation, so Blue Anne would not be without income.

      3. Blue Anne*

        Luckily, I have a couple other sources of income, and apprentices do get paid an okay wage here. :)

      4. Mrs. Fenris*

        Oh my goodness, I am a veterinarian, and people who can make a fluid pump or syringe pump work are my daily heroes! That’s a cool job. :-)

    15. Today's Anon*

      Definitely Not Crazy! Sometimes we think we want to go into one field, but then find out that we dislike it or it makes us miserable. The field I’m in now is my 3rd. I tried it out when I was around 30, & I love it. Both of my previous fields were things I thought I’d like, but I’d be miserable if I’d stayed in either one.

    16. KR*

      I think it would potentially be a good move for you! You don’t have to just be an electrician too. I work in the south west in solar and there are a lot of technician jobs (not a full electrician) out here where you’re 100% out in the field saving the planet.

  7. Joy*

    (This is sort of only tangentially work-related, so please let me know if it should be posted i the weekend thread instead.)

    In the post about which battles to pick – where discussion largely focused on writing styles – quite a few people mentioned using different styles for work as opposed to, say, your own novel.

    Does anyone have trouble switching their mindset from one to the other? My work involves a lot of technical writing – not necessarily formal, but definitely has to be objective, so no ’emotive’ words or anything that could suggest personal bias. At the same time, I really want to take up creative writing again – not as a means to another career but purely as a hobby. Sometimes though, I find it hard to convey emotion since it’s sort of been trained out of me.

    I can remember doing this before I started working (mostly during university) when prose would flow so much more easily, whereas now I feel like I’m overthinking every word. Maybe I’m just out of practice, but the switching of mindsets between the work day and the evenings/weekends is proving something of a barrier.

    (Sidenote: one thing I’m doing to deal with this is instead of writing I’ve started drawing plot points out storyboard-style. Not sure how much It’ll help but at least it feels like I’m still working on the story without having to deal with the words for a while…)

    1. Writing as a side hobby*

      I’m in a similar situation, and what I’ve been learning from experts is that in creative writing, you should not worry about the words when you’re first writing your story.

      So now I stopped to overthink every word and just write down the scenes I’m working on, even if the words sound overly technical / formal. Later (before submitting a first draft to an editor), I’m going to go back and rewrite in my “creative voice”. Perhaps you can try to do the same and see how it goes!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Ooh yes. I don’t do creative writing, but I used to be a much more engaging writer generally when I was in school. I think a big part of it was because I was reading so much more. Now, so much of what I read is generic-to-badly-written professional emails, and I do feel that my writing has gotten much duller as a result. I just don’t have as many interesting turns of phrase in my life as I did once!

    3. Jadelyn*

      Some of it is probably a practice thing tbh. If you haven’t done creative writing in a few years, it’ll take a bit to clear out the cobwebs and get back into the swing of it.

      You might try starting your creative writing session with some freewriting, with or without prompts. Set a timer for anywhere from 5-15 minutes, get your prompt if you’re using one, and go. No stopping, no self-editing, just pour words out on the page. They’re probably gonna be bad. Really bad. That’s okay, that’s the whole point of this. When the timer goes off, either save your freewrite or don’t – I used to keep a running word doc that I would just add new entries (dated) at the bottom of the document then save it; I’ve had friends who saved individual freewriting sessions each in their own file; or just delete it and let it go – and then close it immediately. DO NOT GO BACK AND RE-READ ANYTHING. Close it and switch over to your creative work and write away.

      I emphasize the not rereading part because the whole point of this is to bypass the editor-brain and let the writer-brain out to play. If you go back and reread, you’ll either be embarrassed at the quality (which is discouraging when you then try to go and write more) or you’ll want to edit it (which puts you right back in the editing mode you’re trying to get out of).

      And here’s the other thing – give yourself permission to write a terrible first draft. As writers we often expect even the first draft to at least be good, if not perfect, but the first draft is really more akin to the rough cut for a craftsman making things from raw material, or the pencil sketch a classical artist might start with before getting out the paints. It’ll kinda resemble what your finished product is supposed to be, but only kinda. That’s what the editing and rewriting process is for. So just get the framework out onto the page. Worry about sanding and polishing and painting later.

    4. NeverNicky*

      It’s not so much the change of voice, it’s just the whole brain space/creative capacity is drained by the functional/informational writing I do – which requires (from me) as much creative effort to make educational and engaging as writing any fiction.

      Possibly if I had a burning desire to write the next great British novel I’d try harder but currently I divert my creative mind into yarn and needles stuff.

    5. Quinalla*

      It’s definitely a mindset switch, but I think you could get used to it. I don’t write stories, but I do a lot of for-fun writing (forums, long emails, journaling) and I definitely don’t use the same writing style I use for formal work communication that has to be 3rd person with careful language that a lawyer might someday pick apart. I don’t have trouble switching, but sometimes if I’m doing a lot of the formal work writing I might have to make more of a effort to get back into my casual voice. Maybe set up your home writing area in a way that very different than work and have some sort of short ritual to get you in the right mindset (special drink/snack, taking a few minutes to focus on something or meditate, scents, etc.) Good luck!

    6. Q*

      Well, I don’t, but I’ve been writing creatively since before I really used writing for anything else, so if anything, that’s my “default” and have always had to know how to switch it off. Switching back on again…well, I definitely have read some writers who have trouble with that.

      But really, I think practicing would help you the most! Also, I keep a notepad near me to write down plot ideas freely–and remember you can always edit!

  8. Jiggy*

    Was recently having a discussion with friends about his topic and just want to hear others’ perspectives: how long does it take you to feel really confident at your job? (Not necessarily “happy” since I know some people have crappy jobs.) Feeling like you know what’s expected of you and that you have a handle on how to do it.

    Six weeks? Six months? A year? NEVER?

    Fascinated to hear what other people’s experiences might be…

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It really depends on the job for me. My current job? Still learning, still having confidence issues, but I started feeling good about things about 6 months in (it’s been 11 months). Last job? Thought I was great at 6 months, but the goalposts kept moving and I never got my footing.

      In my current job, I expect it to take another 6-7 months before I feel really comfortable with what I’m doing.

    2. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot*

      It probably took me about a year before I was fully confident in my job. I did a complete industry switch to something I thought I would NEVER do. I look back at work that I did the first 6 months I was there and cringe at some of the work I did.

      1. No Green No Haze*

        From what to what, if I may ask, WTF? I’ll be trying to jump industries in the future and it gives me hives to think about.

        1. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot*

          I was a kindergarten teacher and switched to a financial paraplanner. My school lost its charter so I had to find a job really quickly so I was just looking for any admin job I could find. I ended up getting my paraplanner certification within 2 months of working here and I haven’t looked back since! I have been here 3 years now. If you could have told me I would end up in the finance world I would have laughed at you. Now, I absolutely love it and have learned so much! I still use my teaching skills for this current job (organizing, calling clients, dealing with difficult clients with kid gloves). I know it may seem scary, but you never know what you are capable of if you don’t give it a shot!

    3. Amber Rose*

      Six months for enough comfort to suggest changes, a year before I start making most decisions without running to someone to ask, and however long it takes to be smacked with every conceivable problem before I feel like I can handle anything that comes my way.

      My last job was such a gong show that I never found my footing, but I’ve been here for three years and going it alone for a year and a half and I feel pretty much OK about my work.

    4. SCtoDC*

      In my current position, it was a solid 8 months before I really felt confident. Looking back, I can pinpoint almost exactly when the switch happened and I went from feeling like I was failing at everything to feeling like I was okay. In the position before that it was probably closer to 3 or 4 months. I think it depends on the position, but also the company as a whole.

    5. Ms. Meow*

      At my entry level Chemist position I got right after getting my bachelor’s, I would say I felt comfortable about 6-8 months in. I knew the tasks, systems, and people well enough to feel like I knew what I was doing most of the time.

      My current position is my first after getting my PhD. Since I’m in a higher level position that is much less cut-and-dry than a bench level scientist, it’s been an uphill battle the whole time. I’ve been here just over 2 years, and on a comfort scale of 1-10 I’m at about a 5: I feel like I can handle about half of my tasks while the other half I have to ask for guidance. I’ve been told by more senior people in my position that it may take up to 4 or 5 years until I really feel like I have the hang of everything.

    6. NW Mossy*

      It really depends on how much difference there is between the job you had before and the job you have now. In my current job, it was a lateral (I managed llama herders and now manage alpaca groomers; was formerly an alpaca groomer myself), so I was up to speed in a few weeks. When I’ve switched departments, more like a few months. When I switched companies, more like a year. I’ve never switched industries, but imagine that would be longer yet.

    8. Anne of Green Gables*

      At least a year for me, though really, two years. I am someone who does things better the second time, so getting through time 2 or 3 of doing something (I’m thinking things that are annual) is really where I hit my groove.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        At OldJob and at CurrentJob, it’s taken me about three months to feel comfortable and confident in my work. Where I could pretty much do my job without a lot of supervision and with relative ease and speed.

    9. ClownBaby*

      Will it look tacky if I bring a friend to a business outing?

      I was invited to an upper management dinner followed by a sporting event recently. I am the youngest by over 20 years, the only woman, and the only one without a significant other. When asked how many tickets I want for the sporting event, I said 1. The Vice President of the company then said something along the lines of “Take two, find someone to bring.” They will all be attending with their wives.

      I am not dating anyone nor do I have much interest in dating anyone at this moment. Would it look unprofessional for me to just bring a friend? Or should I download Tinder and start swiping to see if I can find a potential date? The event isn’t for over a month, so I guess I have time.

      2. Murphy*

        “Find someone to bring” says to me that you can bring whoever you want. I think a friend would be fine! I think that’s better than bringing a casual/new date.

      3. Blue_eyes*

        Bring a friend! They gave you two tickets for exactly that purpose. Do make sure to pick a friend who you are 100% sure will act appropriately. Your buddy who likes to get too drunk and argue about politics is not someone you want to meet upper management.

    10. Maya Elena*

      For me in several positions (analytical corporate type jobs, none of them officially supervisory though), I’d say a year before I felt like I was competent and doing meaningful tasks (rather than mindless busy-work).

      At one job in particular I was ready to leave at one year, but didn’t feel like I had much to show for myself in terms of accomplishments; in two years, I was confident in my resume and did not regret staying the extra year, as well as leaving at a much more opportune time due to unrelated factors.

    11. TotesMaGoats*

      I’m in higher ed and I won’t feel confident until I’ve been through a full sequence of semester starts. Different things happen each time. So, for me that will actually be the one year mark.

      1. Ghost Town*

        Exactly – in higher ed administration, there are so many things you only do once a semester or once a year that you don’t truly understand the full scope of a position until you’ve been there at least one year. And because you only do somethings once or twice a year, they can continue to be tricky or confidence destroying for several years to come!

        That said, I’m starting month 7 at a new position in a new school at the same university and am beginning to feel like I have my legs under me most of the time. Still totally have crises of confidence on the regular, and know that the spring semester will probably throw me some curve balls, but knowing that (and having a base level understanding of the university and its systems) helps me feel comfortable and better able to deal with it.

    12. Ingray*

      A my first job out of grad school, it took me a good two years. I’m surprised I toughed it out that long.

    13. Anonyme*

      I’ve been nursing a few years, but moved into Critical Care 10 months ago. I can do the tasks but still feel nauseated with terror every day.

    14. Crylo Ren*

      It largely depends on the company culture and how supportive my team members/managers are. 4 out of the 5 jobs I’ve had, I’ve felt confident a year in. The most recent role I left, I got a new boss a year in and felt like I was starting all over again. (That was one of the reasons I decided to just leave.)

    15. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Depends on the job. At my last job, it took a couple months, but I had worked on the same product elsewhere, so I had a starting advantage.

      In my new job, it took probably 9 months before I started to get really comfortable and confident.

    16. Lora*

      It depends soooo much on the job. If they are one of the places that is constantly re-organizing (literally last 3 full time non-consulting jobs I’ve had, from small to huge, the companies were all constantly playing Musical Management), at least a year. If they are stable with minimal churn and have a good onboarding and training program, 2 months is plenty.

      It’s one of the things I like about consulting work. The project is defined and I don’t have to worry about finding my way around quite as much. I do Thing. I will contact Project Manager. You pay me, then I go home. I’m sort of always in my comfort zone because I only do exactly what I’m comfy with.

    17. Manders*

      It normally takes me about six months to feel like I’m starting to settle into a groove. At my current job it’s probably going to take a bit longer, because 1) things might change soon due to factors I can’t fully control, and 2) some rough stuff is happening in my personal life, so I think I’d feel like I was floundering a bit at any job.

      I think tenures in my field tend to be on the short side, there aren’t many people who stay in the same position in the same place for a decade or more.

    18. Quinalla*

      For my last job switch, 3 months I felt like I was getting close to being as efficient as I thought I should be. 6 months is when I started feeling much more confident.

    19. only acting normal*

      From scratch in an entry level professional job:
      6 months to think I knew what I was doing. 1 year until I could quietly and confidently go back and fix the things I did wrong at 6 months. :)

    20. Windchime*

      I would say about 6 months at my current job, but it’s basically the same industry as previous jobs. I had to learn some new data models and get acquainted with new customers, as well as adjusting to commuting to the Big City. I’ve now been there a year and I feel really comfortable.

    21. Admin of sys*

      I feel like I’m finally hitting my stride at 6months into the new job, but I floundered really badly at the 4 month mark and used the 5ht month to drag myself back into productivity. (delayed response to prev. job burn out, I think? Plus failing to adjust to different job expectations and environment)
      But I think it really depends on the job and position in your career. I picked up speed much better at my last position, and I wasn’t anywhere near as good at what I do then as I am now – I just had different expectations of how things worked.

    22. MissDisplaced*

      When I was doing graphic design, I would say about 4-6 weeks (sometimes not even that! -there was a lot of hit-the-ground-running). But now that I’ve move up and onward beyond design into communications roles, I would say 3-6 months to begin feeling confidant and knowing who/what go to and when. My last job was in a regulated industry, so it took a long time to learn how to write for that. It also can depend on the size of the company.

    23. Delusions of Blandeur*

      For me, it takes about six months to feel like I can usually get things done without asking for help, and a year to feel like I know enough to start helping others — which is my personal metric for confidence. However, every time I’ve changed jobs in the past, it’s been into a completely different position or field, whereas at my current job, which is very similar to my previous role and in the same industry, I’m feeling almost as confident just three weeks in as I usually feel after three months. Which is a nice change!

  9. Eugh*

    Gah, anyone good at wording emails? I received an interview offer for next week, but can’t make it due to a prior commitment (which I can’t change the time of). The job can’t do any other day for the interview as they’ve (which may be a yellow flag?) How can I say that I want to touch base if they have another similar role in the future?

    1. Asha*

      Thanks again for the invitation to interview. I won’t be able to make that time – unfortunately, I have a prior commitment that I can’t move around. I’m still excited about this position and would love to interview at a different time if that becomes a possibility, but if not, I hope you’ll be able to keep me in mind for any future roles like this one!

      2. Jessica*

        I like this response the best, but that last sentence is quite long. I’d say:
        I’m still excited about this position and would love to interview at a different time if that becomes a possibility. If not, I hope you’ll be able to keep me in mind for any future roles like this one!

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Dear Hiring Manager,

      I am really excited about this opportunity, but unfortunately have a prior commitment on DATE that can’t be moved. If it really is not possible to interview on any other day (or time if your commitment isn’t all day), I would love to hear if you have any similar roles in the future.

      Best,

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Hiring Manager,

      Unfortunately, I have a conflict on Interview Date that I can’t reschedule. I understand that you aren’t able to schedule an interview for another day, so I am going to have to withdraw from consideration. I really appreciate the invitation to interview; I am impressed with Organization’s work and excited by the possibility of joining your team. If you have another opening for which I could be a good fit, I would love to be considered again at that time.

      Thank you again, and I look forward to reconnecting in the future.

      Best,

      Applicant

  10. Hard decisions*

    Any advice on jobs that require moving? I don’t have an offer yet, but I’m down to the final round of 3 people and interviews are over. It’s across the country, and I would have to make my fiancé move, but we’ve both been stuck in “part time/internship purgatory” and this would finally be a full time job in my industry. I know it’s a really personal decision, but any tips/advice on considering these things would be greatly appreciated! It’s an entry level job for very little money—but it’s in a really tough industry to get into, and it’s a great entry level job for that industry. My biggest concern is that all of the interviews have been phone or video, so I haven’t had a chance to go see it in person.

    I have no idea what to do, and it’s really stressing me out. Any advice?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      If it is all financially feasible for you, if you get an offer, I would ask if you can make a trip out (potentially on your dime) before you make a final decision because you are very interested but want to meet in person before moving. And then be prepared to go quickly so you can get some sense of the area as well as the people at the job. This is especially true if you haven’t been to the area that the job is in.

    2. HR Expat*

      I’ve been moving around for jobs at my current company for the past 7 years. Advice: Make sure you’re ok being far away from friends/family. It can be hard to build a social life when you’re in a new place, so be prepared that you won’t have your support network nearby.
      Tips: Check if your bank is located in this area; If you have pets, is it standard for places to allow for them (if renting); what’s the cost of living like in that area vs potential salary you’ll be making; are there opportunities for advancement in this location, if that’s your career plan; does this area have any of your hobbies nearby.

      One random experience- when I moved from the Midwest to Long Island, I kept asking about garbage disposals. Apparently, the county where I was living isn’t allowed to have them. I had no clue and everyone kept looking at me like I was crazy. Not a big deal in the end, but I learned to do my research before moving the next time.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Huh, I hadn’t heard that about Long Island, but garbage disposals are VERY rare in Manhattan. We have one right now, but we’re looking to buy a place and none of them have disposals. Some of them have a washer/drying, but no disposal.

        1. HR Expat*

          It’s something about the sewage system in Suffolk county. Apparently you can find them in Nassau county though. But alas, I couldn’t find any flats with them in the UK either. I’m cursed :(

            1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

              I’ve never seen one here. But we do a lot more composting, both in the garden generally and through the council waste collection process.

      2. KAG*

        And refrigerators! Moved from NYC to Los Angeles and found I had to buy my own refrigerator. Got rid of it when I moved back east and now I find myself in Arkansas – and in need of another refrigerator.

      1. Hard decisions*

        He’s not thrilled, but he understands we may have to go. I moved to our current city five years ago for school; he’s been here his whole life. If it was just me, I might have an easier time making the move (it’s actually slightly closer to where I’m from), but I love current city and our lives here, and I know he’s not eager to leave. The mood is very “we gotta do what we gotta do.”

        1. Specialk9*

          I’d love to build your career, while you can. Later in life it can get harder – eg local family helps a lot for child coverage; for several people I know they have a barn with flock of sheep or goats.

    4. Product person*

      Things that I’d be considering:

      1) Is this role a stepping stone for something in the same company that pays more / leads to advancement? It’s one thing to move across the country for a low paying job if you have the opportunity to be promoted to higher roles in due time. It’s an entirely different thing to be in a role where people typically stay forever without any career progression, or the company is so small that the odds of getting a promotion are pretty slim.

      2) If the answer to the first question is “no”, is the place where you’ll be moving to a place with great opportunities in your industry? And would your title in that industry help you get opportunities down the road to move to another company in a better paying job? (For example, if you wanted to work for the llama grooming industry and moved to a city where there is only one llama grooming company, or you got a job as a receptionist a llama grooming company in hopes of becoming a llama trainer down the road but the llama grooming industry is well-known for only hiring trainers with a background of lamma breeders, never a receptionist, these would be red flags for me.

      3) What about your fiancee — will this new place have opportunities in his/her industry / line of work? I once moved to a city in the U.S. where in my industry, you could only work on one of two big companies. People shifted back and forth when they wanted to change jobs. When I was ready to jump ship, I decided to move to another city where there is plenty of companies hiring for my role and my husband’s. This can make a huge difference for both of you to be in a place with multiple job alternatives, as it makes it much easier to deal with layoffs, bad managers, etc., as if one of you loses your job, the other can be in a better position to cover the expenses for both.

      1. Yorick*

        Right, you want to make sure you are moving to a place with many opportunities in your industry, in case you don’t like this company.

        Also, consider whether the area has opportunities for your fiance.

      2. Gaia*

        This. This right here. I moved to my current city for my job and I love both my city and my job but if I ever leave my company I have nowhere to go. This industry and field doesn’t exist here and the nearest jobs would be 4+ hours away. The reality is, when it comes time to move on, I’m moving.

    5. rubyrose*

      Are they offering a relocation package? If so, look at the fine print and know how long you have to stay there without having to repay.

    6. Moving*

      I took a job a few years ago that required moving us – not across the country, but several states away. I was pretty miserable at my old job and was searching, but not outside that city, never mind the state. Then I got a call from a colleague at a “sister” organization asking if I would be interested in interviewing for an open position there. I ended up getting the offer over the holidays that year and it was a really hard week making that decision since it wasn’t anything we had expected or planned for. Factors that helped for us:

      I work in a small(er) subset of a small part of a huge industry, if that makes sense. Very hard to get into and even harder to stay in if you want to make a change. I adore my job, but the teams that do this work across the country are small in number and size (usually 2-4 people, sometimes 1; the biggest I know of is 6). This was an offer from one of the top two orgs in my field and a huge step up in prestige and opportunity.

      I had known, liked and respected the person who would be my new boss for a number of years from the work we both did with our trade association. I also knew and liked the person who would be my coworker.

      We were familiar with the area because we have family here, and at the time there was a health situation with a relative that made a compelling case for being geographically closer if we had the opportunity.

      I think if I had stayed in my former city and taken a job in another line of work, I would have been trading one type of misery for another, because as cheesy as it sounds, what I do now is really my calling.

      Advice: Really talk everything through with your significant other, and look at your budget. Moving is expensive. We had somewhere to stay for a while until we got sorted out but we had to put a lot in storage, which was another expense, and then move again when we found our own place. Scope out housing costs (pretty easy to do online), area amenities, even think about things like weather/climate if that will be a big change and affect activities you enjoy outside of work. See if there are opportunities for your fiance, even if it may take time to get something in place (and make sure you will be okay if it takes longer than you think). It was a huge leap for us, and there were some uncertain moments, but looking back, I would definitely do it again.

  11. Asha*

    I need help deciding if it’s a bad move for me to get a new job. I’m only 25, and in my first US office role after graduating. I spent 2 years after college in a contract position overseas – for a US company, working in my field, just not in a typical environment, and not with any worries about my length of employment since it was a contract. I’ve been in my current role for about 18 months now, and it’s a disaster. It’s an incredibly toxic work environment. On a team of 30, there are 22 actively searching for a new job, so I know it’s not just me. I love the day-to-day role, but the leadership is impossible to work with. I made it to the third round of interviews for four different positions, and am expecting an offer soon from at least one of them. All of this is great news – I’m in a bad work environment, I recognized it, and I’m almost out – but here’s the problem.

    My husband is in grad school right now, and I’m dealing with some health concerns that don’t affect my work. When grad school is finished and health is all better, we’re going to relocate for his new job. That could be as soon as a year, or as long as three years from now. Is it bad to go ahead and accept a new job knowing that I could be leaving a year from now? I’m not planning to leave that quickly – I really think it’ll be at least two years. If it’s a long time, there’s no way I can make it in my current environment, and staying for 2+ years would be perfectly normal. But I don’t want to accept an offer in bad faith, knowing that there’s a chance (unlikely, but a chance) that I’ll be leaving “early.”

    1. Combinatorialist*

      Since you aren’t planning to leave within a year, I don’t think that is in bad faith. Since you know you can’t survive a long time in your current environment, then I think you should take a new job as soon as possible to maximize the length of that offer.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Agreed – plus, none of these things are definite, whereas a job offer would be. Take the job offer and see what else materializes in your life later.

    2. King Friday XIII*

      “A chance” is not bad faith. Anything could happen regardless of your plans. If you expect to stay at least two years, IMO you’re fine.

    3. AMT27*

      I think two 2-year or less jobs straight out of college is normal. A third job with a shorter time-line is totally understandable if you are relocating for family reasons -its not a ‘I just got bored and want something different’ kind of switch. And you don’t know when or if you’ll be leaving, you don’t have concrete plans yet, so taking an offer is not taking it in bad faith.

    4. Asha*

      Thanks – that all makes sense. Essentially, I feel the same way, but needed someone who isn’t also a super young professional friend to tell me I’m not making some ridiculously mean decision to try to move forward.

    5. Maya Elena*

      If there is a real chance that your toxic job changes for the much better in six months, consider staying. “Real” means toxic boss retiring in a month; enough toxic people leaving that you get to refresh your team on a better footing; etc.

      Otherwise, find a new one. Your sleep or sanity or health probably isn’t helped by being in a bad job.

    6. Amy*

      There’s always a chance something could go screwy and you could need to leave a job earlier than expected. Your family could move for your spouse’s career; you could get an unexpected but amazing opportunity you can’t pass up; a family member could get sick and need caregiving; you could get hit by a bus. Life happens. I don’t think it’s ‘bad faith’ unless you’re suggesting that you plan to stay for a while, while privately thinking “In three months I’m out of here no matter what”.

      1. WITney Houston*

        Agreed! I don’t think this is bad faith at all. Plus you’re assuming that if you have to move, you won’t be able to stay with the company any more. If you do a great job in that year, you could potentially be transferred to another office or allowed to work from home. Companies value good employees and make special concessions for those employees when possible. Maybe realizing that moving doesn’t necessarily mean quitting will help alleviate your guilt?

    7. MissDisplaced*

      If you know you’re planning to relocate within a year to year and a half, I would stick out the crappy job until then. Otherwise, you’d be taking a new job and leaving within a year, which doesn’t look good.

      Who knows, crappy job might just lay you off or go out of business.

  12. FormerOP*

    Question for the commentariat. I have been teaching Dothraki teapot-making for several years in my city. A few months ago, I decided to formalize my business and expand what I do. I have gone to a few workshops at a tax-payer funded organization designed to help small businesses. I’ve been growing slowly but steadily, and at this point I need advice regarding general business needs like real estate, insurance, hiring employees, etc. From my experience with tax-payer funded organization, I knew that this is the kind of advice that they offer 1-1. So I called to ask about this and the conversation was at best useless and at worse discriminatory. Tax-payer funded organization employee thought I needed help with marketing (I need help with general business needs, not specific to my industry), and kept making comments about how “specific” my questions were. I felt my questions were applicable to any business that is not an online business. I was told to contact the Dothraki Chamber of Commerce and to check out the Essos Culture Festival. My question is, is this somehow understandable given that lots of wackadoos probably ask for help with businesses that will never work, or is it worth bringing up that tax-payer funded employee is either a very bad listener or did not want to deal with something because it is Dothraki? FWIW, the vast majority of my students are not Dothraki. I hope that this question makes sense! It was a bizarre, and angering experience and I am hoping to get some perspective.

    1. King Friday XIII*

      Can you call back and talk to someone else about your business in more general terms, if you think it’s scaring them off? Obviously I’m not there but the way you describe it sounds like perfectly reasonable questions to ask with that kind of org.

      1. FormerOP*

        Thanks for responding. The thing is, is that my questions were very general, and had nothing to do with being a business that is related to Dothraki culture. The person kept bringing up marketing to Dothrakis. I’m asking if this is just run-of-the-mill poor listening skills, or something more xenophobic?

        1. Lora*

          It can be both. Can you request to speak to a different person? SCORE’s Boston office has been very helpful to me, but I was also able to specifically request someone with previous biotech experience and they were very careful to ask, what type of questions do you have, and find someone whose experience would be helpful to me. Afterwards they sent me a survey asking if my questions had all been answered (they had, the gentleman they had me speak with knew his stuff and was very helpful – his background was more medical devices than biotech but he was familiar with the terminology and understood my questions about terms & conditions and NDAs and data security and whatnot). You can also call the national office and ask to be directed to a different office: I had a choice of Boston or a closer satellite office.

          Also check if any local colleges/universities do small business outreach. There’s a small local university that has a small business clinic with specialists in SBIRs, marketing, real estate etc. all free to anyone who signs up. In my area (New England) there’s a group called Center for Women & Enterprise that offers assistance to small businesses including the general business things you mention – I’m sure they aren’t limited to women only, the classes I took had men in them as well.

        2. King Friday XIII*

          Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that your questions sounded perfectly reasonable and that maybe the person you were talking to was making a bunch of assumptions because you said Dothraki, whereas you could talk about teaching teapot-making in a broader way without giving them the opportunity to make assumptions and see if that gets you further.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’ll be the Cynical One, here. Government funded programs can be hit or miss. Some are good and some are just alright. Some are too general in nature to be that helpful.
      Your answer could be that the person you spoke with was totally unfamiliar with what you are talking about. That is what it sounds like to me, “too specific” can translate into “I have no clue what you are saying.”

      A friend used SCORE in her area and got good advice that way. I do agree you want a SCORE volunteer who has some experience or tangent knowledge to what you are doing.

    3. CoffeeLover*

      Similar to the comment above saying government programs are hit or miss, I’ll also add that small business advisors can be hit or miss. I don’t think your conversation sounds particularly xenophobic, I think it’s sounds like the person doesn’t know business (because there’s a lot more to it than marketing). I think it’s comparable to trying to find a

  13. Beaded Librarian*

    So I’m curious what the commentariat here thinks of this. I do triathlons and so am part of a a Facebook group for triathletes. Today one of the posted that her friend got a job by listing that she was an Ironman on her resume. I thought that seemed like it might be a good idea for some jobs but for the most part a bad idea. However many commenters said that they had either had it on their resumes or it came up in the interviews and the got the job because doing an Ironman shows that they have commitment and know how to get lots done.

    1. Murphy*

      I think it would look out of place on most resumes, but I could see bringing it up at an interview (in some kind of relevant context).

      1. Asha*

        Yes. I could see it being resume-level relevant rarely, but also see why hiring powers would like it. Interview seems like a great spot for that.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m always skeptical of “it got me the job” stories like this. It might have been a point of interest with the interviewer, but it’s very, very unlikely that it actually is what got them the job, unless they were hired by a truly terrible hiring manager who doesn’t know how to hire. It’s more likely that they would have gotten the job anyway, and they’re assuming causation where there isn’t any. Or at most, that they were a top candidate anyway and the rapport with the interview pushed them over the finish line.

      1. Beaded Librarian*

        Honestly that was my thinking when I saw that. Would have gotten the job anyway or not a good hiring process and it might not end up being a good thing you got the job.

      2. Ghost Town*

        I agree with this. At most, it helped the hiring manager/committee remember the candidate because of the unique characteristic, but a one-off like this isn’t The Why behind getting the job; it is a feather on the scale in your favor.

    3. selina kyle*

      It seems like something to mention in an interview rather than a resume unless you work in a sector where it’s really relevant.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Did the resume say that she ran marathons and had an Ironman title, or that she was Ironman? Because I would totally hire Ironman.

        1. Aurion*

          Given Tony Stark’s problems with authority and maverick tendencies, I’m not sure hiring managers would hire Iron Man… XD

    5. LCL*

      I wouldn’t want to see that on a resume. Because I would tend to think, based on my work experience, that the person would always be trying to leave early to go train, and miss a lot of work due to Doctor appointments and recovery. And even if they did show up to work they would be too busted up to fully do the job.

      I have no doubt that in the US being a triathlete gives one an edge in being hired. Because our current definition of physically attractive is being slim and fit. And people tend to think (wrongly) that slim fit people are just generally better all around, smarter, and have a better work ethic. The biggest slacker I know personally is a triathlete.

      2. Anon for This*

        I had a co-worker many years ago who was a big marathon runner. He came in late all the time (often not until 10a.m. in the winter) so that he could fit in his workouts. He would frequently leave early to miss the crowds at the gym. He traveled all over for races, and so regularly took Mondays and Friday’s off. He ended up being fired, because it was clear his running life was more important than his job.

        I think he was the minority. Generally, people who are triathletes and long distance runners, i think show a level of dedication and perseverance that is admirable. And often those same traits are found in that person’s work ethic. But, I do think that it’s prudent to be cautious because not every hiring manager will automatically think good things when it’s brought up.

        1. Specialk9*

          Oh yeah, I’ve seen that too. Not to that degree, but coming in really late to get a 20 mile run in, or leaving early. Marathon people don’t generally seem to stick with it long term though, I’ve noticed, what with injuries or wandering off.

    6. PB*

      I haven’t seen this on a resume. However, a while ago, we were doing reference checks for candidates, and one person’s references all made a big point about her being a marathon runner. We were just kind of like, okay? It didn’t cost her the job, but it didn’t do anything to boost her candidacy. When I’m hiring, I care a lot more about how someone will perform in their job. In my experience, athletic excellence does not necessarily translate into excellence in employment. The two are by no means mutually exclusive, but neither does the one guarantee the other.

      1. Beaded Librarian*

        So you think it’s a good idea or at least reasonable for someone to list on their resume? For what it’s worth I’m still trying to figure out how they listed it.

        1. Jaydee*

          I think this would be reasonable to list as a hobby/other activity if you happen to have room for that on your resume. Ironman results are easily verifiable (you can look it up online) and it requires intense training and is objectively impressive. If you can swim 2.4 miles, then bike 112 miles, and *then* run a marathon, that is totally bad@$$.

          1. EasilyAmused*

            That’s where I would expect it to be. Other commenters are making it sound as though that section is not common anymore. Are people not including “other activities” anymore?

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would find this super strange on a resume for any job I have ever hired for and I would probably think less of someone for listing such an out of place thing. Of course, higher ed is weird, but I wouldn’t do it.

    9. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I do triathlons (but not Ironman distance!). It’s an interesting fact, but not something I’d put on a resume. And Ironman training is a serious time commitment. (That’s the major reason why I doubt I’ll ever be able to race that distance–you have to train several hours each day.) To be honest, if I were hiring for a job that required regular overtime, I’d probably ask about the Ironman commitment in the interview to see how the candidate would prioritize work with their training schedule and other commitments.

  14. K.*

    I alluded to some upsetting news about work in last weekend’s thread: I found out that my role is being downgraded to a much more junior level, so I have to leave (the pay cut is tens of thousands; I couldn’t afford to live on it). I’m not that upset anymore (this role is new and was poorly defined from the start – I’ve been very unhappy), but it was a shock. I’m going to take a little time off, though I’ve had some good networking conversations.

    Also I am working with someone who is prone to email tantrums (all caps, really condescending tone), which is putting a damper on my mood. How do you deal with people who speak to you that way at work?

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I usually tried the “kill them with kindness” approach by being as easygoing and friendly as possible. Sometimes it would calm them down because I seemed to actually care about their problems. In rare cases my methods made them even more angry because they were spoiling for a fight and I refused to play.

      It’s not easy but remind yourself it’s not forever. In some ways I pity those types. Their lives must be pretty miserable being that angry and unhappy all the time.

      Good luck with the job hunt.

    2. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot*

      I had a boss scream at me in front of co-workers one time. I was mortified and let my emotions get the best of me (insert tears and walking to the bathroom). Now, I just do the “kill them with kindness” trick. If they want to throw tantrums, let them. You know it is nothing you can change about them, that is just the way they are. Respond politely and don’t give it another thought!

    3. Wendy Darling*

      My boss berated me in all-caps underlined bright red italics. I closed my laptop, started my weekend like 3 hours early, and then quit first thing on Monday because the job was a complete dumpster fire in every other way and openly hostile email tantrums were a bridge too far. Somehow my boss did not connect her tirade with my quitting, like, at all.

      I’m interested to hear how one handles that sort of thing productively, because my mic-drop strategy, while the right choice for me in that moment, is not very productive.

      1. Specialk9*

        I used to have a job that simultaneously had a degree of authority/expertise, and required a great deal of eating spit from clients. What worked weirdly well when dealing with someone who was routinely abusive was to have careful ‘not a victim’ body language (pretend you’re a puppet with a head strong that someone is pulling taut, so your whole body is straight and tall) and not laugh or be friendly when someone is being a jerk (I channeled my inner school marm). Inside your head, tell them sternly that you expect them to behave – people pick up on what you’re thinking but you haven’t actually said anything that could get you in trouble.

    4. Carrotcakebringsrabbits*

      For toxic co-workers – I’d go either the act like you are a behavioral scientist and they are a subject you are observing. Or I’d treat them like they are my favorite person in the world (albetit favorite 5 year old) and any condensation is just their misunderstanding of well, everything.

      1. K.*

        Yeah – this person isn’t my boss but they sure do love telling me how to do my job!

        I’ve looped in my actual boss, and have taken to responding very matter of factly, with no more words than are necessary.

  15. ella*

    I just had a job drop in my lap with a 30% pay raise. And health insurance. And I think it’ll be a good fit for my skills. And it’s a supervising student workers, I’ve never supervised anyone, I’m kinda freaking out. Aaahhhhhhhhhhhhh *breathes*

    1. selina kyle*

      Congrats! You read AAM, you’ll have tons of resources/know-how for supervising those students, it’ll work out!

    2. DuckDuckGoose*

      Congratulations! In my last position I supervised about 20 student employees and it is so rewarding to watch them grow and graduate.

    3. Gloucesterina*

      congrats ella! I don’t have any experience supervising student workers but I know that my students benefit from clear expectations/goals, and knowing when I expect a new task they’re learning may feel difficult or unfamiliar to them. I have no idea much transfer there is from teaching/learning context to a management/supervisory context though. I’m sure you will be a great role model for them. And introducing them to AAM will be so helpful as they advance in their working lives!

    6. Ghost Town*

      Congratulations! For student workers, generally try to remember that it is likely their first professional experience, you’ll be explaining things a lot (and over and over), and there’s probably a clearly defined end date to their tenure with you.

    7. Amy*

      CONGRATS!

      What age students are you supervising? I’m a current phd student, if you ever want perspectives from the other side I’ve had some interesting experiences over the years.

  16. AndersonDarling*

    My hubby is 42 and just put in for his first paid vacation. He’s been working since he was 15, mostly for small companies and restaurants that didn’t give vacation time. He’s taking a whole week off and he was saying that he doesn’t know what to do with the time. We are going on a trip for a few days, but the rest he will be working on projects and dallying at home.
    Not to get political, but it’s amazing that someone can work their whole life in the US and not have a single paid vacation day. I always worked in offices and vacation time was standard so I never thought about it.

    2. King Friday XIII*

      It was like a revelation to me when I got a job in banking and it was explained that I’m actually *required* to take a week’s vacation for security reasons. I’ve taken days here and there before but I didn’t even get two days off for my own wedding! I hope you and your spouse have a great trip and he enjoys his time off.

    3. Jadelyn*

      I almost cried with joy when I got my current job, which is the first I’ve had that offered paid sick leave, much less vacation. It was so strange to me, the idea that if I got sick I didn’t have to try to force myself to function through it, but could actually take a couple days to rest and get better.

      Back when I was temping here at my current job before they converted me to FT, I started having awful muscle spasms in my back. I ignored it for several days, even past the point where getting out of bed in the morning almost made me throw up from the pain, and came to work because if I didn’t work, I didn’t get paid, and I couldn’t afford to lose the income. That day, I had a bad moment trying to get up from my desk to get something from the printer, and I couldn’t hide that I was hurting, so my unofficial supervisor who I shared an office with asked me what was wrong. I explained, and she was like “…so why are you here instead of resting at home??” I laughed a little and said “Nicole, I don’t get sick time. I can either be in pain at home, or I can be in pain here, but at least if I’m in pain here I’m still making money for the day.” She was horrified. So she told me to go home, but that she would fill in my timesheet with 8 hours of work for the day so I didn’t lose out on the day’s pay.

      Honestly, not giving people sick time and the ability to use it is barbaric.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        My company took over a little office and when we sat down the manager and told her that she would be receiving benefits (medical, PTO, tuition reimbursement) she really did cry. She was struck that she was offered tuition reimbursement to continue her education. She didn’t even know that it was a thing to pay for employee’s school.

      3. Cloud Nine Sandra*

        Some cities have laws that you must get paid sick time. I loooooooooooove living in one, as I’ve been temping for the last 2 years, but can still stay home when I have migraines or need to leave early for dr appts because my agency is required to pay me. (The hourly requirements here are something like work 12 hours a week, iirc.)

        1. Jadelyn*

          Yes, some places have those laws now. In fact I’m in CA, which is one of the only states that has a statewide sick leave law. But they’re all pretty recent – the CA statewide one only took effect in 2015, iirc.

          What we need is a federal regulation on it. Ah well, one can dream.

      4. Specialk9*

        “Not giving people sick time and the ability to use it is barbaric.”

        I researched cost of nanny vs daycare, and was determined that any nanny in my home would have paid sick leave and vacation. It was surprisingly hard to find a good tutorial on how to be an ethical employer. (Though admittedly my google-fu could have been blocked by newborn brain fog.) I ended up with work subsidized daycare, but it really points out how in the US our most vulnerable and closest to the edge financially have the fewest protections.

    4. Mazzy*

      Well, to get this out of the way, it is definitely not political, it’s the bad decision of business owners. That aside, I find this kind of sad. Not to make your husband feel awkward and I’m glad he’s in a better job, but this sort of attitude is sad. I could take off a month or two and be busy every single day. Part of that though is because my job is mentally draining so I don’t have time and energy at night to focus on hobbies that require too much sitting or brain power, I tend to do physical things.

      1. Natalie*

        I mean, it is political in the sense that there are many countries with statutory minimums for vacation/sick time, and the US doesn’t have those because of different governance philosophies (on the whole, not saying those philosophies are shared by every American).

        1. Blank*

          Agreed. Workers’ rights and the labour movement are absolutely political, with other parts of the world giving mind-boggling amounts of paid leave. (I’m not in the US and I get 28 days of paid leave per year – if I was full-time it would be 32 days, not including statutory holidays.)

          Not knowing what to do with yourself for a full week off is also political, if you’ve never been in a jurisdiction which mandates time away from work.

          1. TL -*

            Eh, I’ve always had paid vacation and I am definitely the kind of person who doesn’t know what she would do with a whole week off – I generally only take vacations when I have something planned.

    5. zora*

      I still have trouble wrapping my head around paid vacation and paid holidays sometimes! I spent years in retail/temp jobs where I often took days off, but I wasn’t paid if I didn’t work, so I had to put a lot of mental energy into the financial aspect of the smaller paycheck and how to make that work. And my dad has been a government contractor almost his whole career and has never had paid vacation, so it was a constant conversation in my house my whole life. Sometimes it still blows my mind when I’m at the beach with my family and I realize, oh right, I’m getting PAID for today as if I was working! Crazytown!!

      1. only acting normal*

        Just for comparison. The UK legal minimum paid leave entitlement for full time workers is 28 days per year (including bank holidays). That’s 5.6 weeks. And good employers give more.
        So from this side of the Atlantic, the US vacation allowances (or lack thereof) sound practically medieval. :-S

        1. zora*

          Wow, I have literally never had that much paid leave! The most I have had was one nonprofit that paid less than nothing, but I had 4 weeks of vacation, and that felt like magic.

          Also, I’ve never had free health care, and have even had several years when I didn’t have any health care at all, I’m currently paying off a $6000 hospital bill from one relatively small illness. So…… um…. yeah…..

          1. EasilyAmused*

            Just to clarify, employer subsidized healthcare is not free for the employee. It is paid by both employer and employee – money is taken out of your paycheck.

        2. Specialk9*

          Whoa. 28 days paid leave as the minimum?! I’m a fairly senior SME and “only” get 15 days of paid leave, and am grateful (until I talk to Canadians and Europeans).

          1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

            Here in Canada we get two paid weeks plus paid statuary Holidays. The norm is usually to start people with three weeks vacation though. I get two weeks which I can choose when to take off and then the third week is between Christmas and New Years because we are closed. I like that because its fair for everyone to have time off with their families.

          2. Natalie*

            Keep in mind that the 28 days can be inclusive of holidays (bank holidays or federal holidays). If you get paid holidays its typically 8-10 a year, and then if you have 3 weeks PTO you’re in the ballpark of that minimum.

            1. zora*

              Ah, right. Yeah in the US, holidays are separate, so I probably did get close at that one job, I had 20 days of paid vacation, 10-12 paid holidays and sick leave was separate, I can’t remember how much. But I definitely don’t have that much now at my current job! :::eyeroll:::

              1. Can I retire yet?*

                I work in local government / public sector in the UK. When I had done five years, I went from 28 days annual paid leave to 33 days. That does not include bank holidays (8 a year) which I also get. Paid sick leave is separate. If you are ill less than a week, you can self-certificate. If you are off longer, you need to get a doctor’s certificate. With that, you get full pay for the first 6 months, half pay for the second 6 months. During this time, you have to have interviews with your manager (I have attended interviews as the sick person’s union rep; they vary in tone). Your time off gets noted and you might get pulled up on it if you have a lot. I am American and have lived here for over 35 years. Sometimes I forget to be grateful for stuff like this and for the National Health Service.

    6. Red Reader*

      My 37yo husband is about to get his first PTO ever, aye. (And he still had to wait a year past hire to get it.) We had to have discussions at one point to the effect of, I literally get four times as much PTO as he does, and since I work from home I -a- almost never need the sick time and -b- suck at taking time off but staying home, so under what circumstances is he ok with me going on mini vacations without him. (So far they’ve all been to Disneyworld, though I’m thinking a civil war battlegrounds road trip next spring.)

    7. Emac*

      I really wish that there were some sort of required course in high school to teach kids about the differences in benefits in different companies and industries, and in what’s required by different states for benefits, minimum wages, and employee protections. Maybe if kids had more awareness of these things before finishing high school, they might be able to make decisions that would influence more companies/industries/states to offer more.

      I had sort of the opposite experience from your husband – my first office job where I was an employee, and not a temp, paid 100% of health insurance. I had no idea how rare that was and basically quit for really stupid reasons. I thought it was standard and didn’t realize what it said about how much that company valued its employees.

  17. Jan*

    I started a new job and my slightly senior colleague “Marsha” and I work together. She has been training me and is pretty nice for the most part. I’m pretty shy and quiet, but am trying to “break out of my shell” a bit. Marsha says that she is happy that I was hired, because the work was too much for her. But at other times, she talked about how she was the only one in her department and how she accomplished this or that. She sometimes seems annoyed if I hang around her office, but then if I don’t come by her, she’ll ask me if I’m okay/see what’s wrong. (She runs hot and cold.)
    We all go out to lunch and the head boss likes to have a group of people- he’ll tell me what time we’re going, etc. But sometimes Marsha tells me, “You don’t have to go.”

    I’m confused because the head boss invites me, so… I don’t know if Marsha doesn’t want me to come with or what is going on. Part of me wants to say, “Do you not want me there, Marsha?” but I don’t want to sound hostile.

    I don’t know what to do! Does she not like me or not want me around? Am I being too sensitive?
    Any advice?

    1. Dee-Nice*

      From your description, I feel that I’ve encountered Marshas before. If I had to guess I’d say she’s office-mothering you a bit in her own slightly brusque, inadvertently condescending way. Probably the kind of person who thinks shy people need taking care of, so when she says “you don’t have to go,” she thinks she’s doing you a favor by releasing you. If you say something like, “No, I’d actually really like to go, I think I’d enjoy it,” and she seems fine with that I’d let it go. I don’t think you’re being too sensitive– this kind of behavior can be confusing if you haven’t encountered it before.

      1. AMT27*

        Oh, you’re being much kinder about Marsha than I am internally (though I am not always very nice so take my comments with a grain of salt!). But it’s possible that Marsha is insecure now – if she was the only one doing the work before, sharing responsibilities might be making her anxious about being ‘needed’ in her job, or threatening her sense of job security, and making her (hopefully subconsciously) try to diminish your importance there. But if that is the case, hopefully time will help her adjust. Just my two cents.

    2. Lumen*

      Don’t worry too much about how Marsha feels. Maybe she’s annoyed when you come by, maybe she isn’t. If she is, it’s on her to communicate what the problem is with you coming by (if there is a legitimate problem and not just her own varying stress levels). Maybe she’s happy you’re there some days and feels threatened other days. Maybe she worries that YOU don’t like HER. Maybe she’s upset if the boss invites you because she has baggage about your boss. Maybe she thinks you don’t want to go to lunch because you’re shy and she’s trying to ‘help’.

      All of these things are Marsha’s problem. Marsha’s and Marsha’s only. They aren’t about your quality of work, and if they are, it is really her responsibility to communicate that to you, not make you guess at her feelings and try to read her mind and adjust accordingly.

      Do your job, do it as well as you can, and do what makes you happy. And when you start worrying about how Marsha feels about it, tell yourself “Not my circus, not my monkeys.” For some reason that always works for me (because I am constantly fretting about what other people think of me).

      1. Specialk9*

        Technically yes, Marsha needs to communicate her needs. But expecting people who aren’t using their words to start is not a wise course because it’ll likely not happen. It may be frustrating, but most of us have to infer feelings by subtle indicators.

        That said, OP, give some thought to how much power you’re giving to Marsha, and how anxious that is making you.

        It might be helpful to decide that you really really like Marsha – that comes through in all kinds of ways, and nobody can resist someone who likes them. Ask someone who adopted a dog or cat, and a huge number of them will say they chose the one that came up to them and played/allowed petting etc. We’re all a sucker for being liked. The good news is that, while you don’t control Marsha’s actions, you can decide on your own. So choose to tell yourself regularly how much you like her. I think you’ll find that works!

        1. TL -*

          Eh, I have treated people who run hot and cold as if their feelings weren’t my problems and as long as I am consistently polite and in a good mood, it’s actually worked out well.
          Ignoring moodiness is a great way to get it to stop, in my experience.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s fairly normal for people to talk about what they did at an earlier point. When she says she did x a while ago, try to find something cheerful to say. “Well, now that you have me, we will become a real Power Team”. Notice the “we”, notice the “team”. Or you can say you are grateful she is there to train you. Yes, a little like buttering her up, people love compliments. People love hearing “thanks”. Sprinkle these types of things in where it makes sense- don’t over do but just say something that will make her feel good once in a while.

      Remember training is tiring. She has her own thing she is doing and then she is trying to map out your thing that you are doing. At some point you might decide it’s a good idea to have a designated check in time. If she is snippy, ask her if there is a better time. Or maybe you can find patterns in her snippiness and deduce on your own how to time your check-ins or questions. Keep in mind that she may just be tired, when you talk to her assume she is tired and craft your response as if you are talking to a tired person.

      For purposes of clarity, I go with what the boss says and not what the trainer says. If you are invited then you should go. You can just say to her, “No, it’s okay. I will go.” She may be picking up that you are tired also.

  18. Ron McDon*

    Commiserations please – my previous, awesome boss left recently.

    She had a huge amount of knowledge about everything in my workplace, which is quite an unusual place to work and has its own set of rules and regulations (trying to be vague so I am not recognised!)

    The PTB decided that instead of waiting approx 1 month for someone who had worked in this industry before and had all that institutional knowledge, it would be better to get someone who could start immediately but has never worked in this sort of company.

    So now I am spending most of my time at work either explaining really basic things about our industry, or saying ‘that was something old boss dealt with and I don’t know what to do with that, sorry’.

    New boss has done virtually nothing in the past 2 weeks. I am getting questions from other staff that used to go to old boss, because new boss has no clue!

    I like new boss, she seems nice, it’s just so frustrating for us both. There are people in similar jobs in our industry locally that she has been instructed to reach out to (this is very much a thing in our line of work) but she hasn’t availed herself of their help and just keeps telling me/everyone that she doesn’t know how to do ‘anything’.

    Old boss trained her for a bit (no real handover, it’s a complicated situation) and has offered to come back in for another session but new boss is reluctant.

    Sorry to go on for so long! It’s frustrating when someone is given a job they’re not really prepared for, and won’t use the help that’s being offered.

    I hope everyone else had a better work week than I!

      1. Ron McDon*

        Haha, when my boss resigned just about everyone I work with/family said ‘are you going to apply for her job then’?

        I don’t have the necessary qualifications, nor would I want the stress of her role… I wouldn’t mind her pay though :)

    2. ella*

      That does sound frustrating. Hopefully something changes soon–new boss finds her feet, PTB decide something needs to change, something.

  19. qwertyuiop*

    How soon is it to tell that you’re not a good fit for a position? I’m at my job for 3 months and am having second thoughts. I work with my co-worker “Gladys” and she said that the reason that she gets along with another woman is that “they’re the same age.” I’m a lot younger than Gladys, but didn’t really even factor that in or think of it as a concern.
    Some people talk to me, but it seems forced and they seem uncomfortable, like they would rather be some place else/talking with someone else. I’m trying to be friendly and social, but I’m introverted so it’s difficult.
    Otherwise they just talk with one another and I have a hard time joining in, so I sort of give up and do my own thing, but I don’t want to get in trouble for not being a “team player” or anything.

    It would be nice to have someone to talk to and hang out with like the rest of them do, but I’m not sure if that will ever happen.

    Besides age, things are clique-y in terms of race, which I can’t help either. I just don’t know if it’s too soon to tell or if it isn’t a good fit for me.

    1. Anon for This*

      I like to give myself at least 6 months to a year. The first year of a new job can be really overwhelming, and so I’m never sure if it’s not a good fit or if it’s the anxiety of learning a new role.

      However, there was at least one job that I knew by the end of the first month it wasn’t going to work.

    2. Lumen*

      Give it some more time. At 3 months in my current job, I felt the same way. I felt like no one wanted to talk to me, on my team or otherwise. It was rough, and made me doubt that I’d made the right decision to come here.

      I’m a year and change in now, and I’m really glad I didn’t take those feelings as permanent realities, rather than… well, feelings. People were slow to warm up, they were busy, and I learned later that many of them were pretty new themselves, too. There are still cliques, and weird people like Gladys who only want to work with people like themselves, but… meh. I don’t care that much anymore.

      Be patient with yourself, and with others. Keep an eye on anything that seems racially motivated, because that is definitely a yellow flag (to my mind). It’s too soon to know for sure. In the meantime, focus on your non-work relationships and interests, and keep trying to slowly get to know people.

    3. WITney Houston*

      IDK man, in theory I agree that you should give a job time, but sometimes when you know you know.

      I accepted a job at a start up after working for a huge company and on day 3 I realized what a terrible mistake I’d made. The hardest part of the situation was that there wasn’t anything specific that went wrong – everyone was nice, the job was fine…it just felt wrong.

      All my friends told me to stick it out, give it time, it would get better, I had culture shock etc, but every day I woke up with a pit in my stomach knowing that this was wrong for me, and Sundays were torture as I knew I’d have to go to work the next day.

      I ended up quitting after 5 months, and everything has worked out. I may have tried to stick it out longer had my work experience (for my resume) not shown that I had the ability to spend multiple years at a company so I knew I could explain this anomaly in future interviews.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        This is exactly what I am having right now, glad it is not just me. Just finished the first month, but everything you describe is what I am feeling. Luckily another company (in a different country, exactly where I want to be) just contacted me for an interview, so hopefully by the end of the year I can also say goodbye.

    4. MilkMoon (UK)*

      I knew on the second day at my last job, but I needed to get paid so I decided I’d just endure it for as long as possible to give myself a break from job hunting. I told them to shove-it at five months :) Trust your gut.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t let Gladys come in between you and that other coworker. Decide to be consistently friendly with both of them.

      I think when we start a new job, that it’s all about THEM. Let them talk about themselves, pretend not to notice that you can’t fit a word in. Take an interest, know something specific about each person and inquire about it. “How did your kid make out in the championships?” or “Is your dog feeling better?”

      Instead of focusing on how forced conversations feel, focus on a positive thought such as, “Isn’t that nice that person came over to say hi.” Talking to a new person IS awkward- it’s awkward for you and for them. There are people who decide to power through the awkwardness and talk to the new person anyway. Try thinking things like “thanks for trying to make me feel welcome”.

      Another little trick you can do is say to yourself, “Some time I will have a new coworker. I can watch how these folks talk with me and learn what to do and what not to do with the newbie.” This turns it into a little study type of thing where you become an observer.

    6. AshK434*

      I can totally relate! I always have a rough time adjusting to new workplaces bc I’m naturally a quiet introverted person and I think that freaks people out. In my current job I’m surrounded by extroverts and I initially sat far away from rest of my team when I started which didn’t help. My coworkers would all actively try to disengage from convos with me as quickly as possible, and just generally weren’t very warm and welcoming. One time I was walking with a coworker to a meeting and he literally ran away from me to avoid talking with me. I even told my manager I was considering quitting. But a few months ago, my desk was moved and I now sit with my entire team, and that changed things dramatically. I still don’t consider them work friends, but I feel like part of the team now and can hold a convo with them and we laugh occasionally. Unfortunately I can’t point to anything in particular I did, but I’m glad I did wait it out.

  20. The Layoff Worrier*

    Someone at my job got let go last Friday. There wasn’t a big announcement, but he was met by his boss and security at the front door and escorted out. Office gossip is that he was let go for underperforming but there wasn’t any sort of PIP or corrective action, which is strange because I work for one of the oldest and largest employers in my city.

    He started a few months before I did so now I’m antsy about a surprise layoff. My boss hasn’t said anything about being dissatisfied with my work, but we work in different offices and I work largely independently from him, so I could be missing something.

    How should I ask him for feedback on my performance?

    1. Jules the Third*

      Ideally, you’ll have a regular meeting with your boss to talk about your work / boss’s expectations and requirements. Once a week, once a month, once a quarter – frequency varies with jobs, bosses, etc. By the time you get to your annual review, you and your boss should have had 4 – 40 conversations about what you do, boss should be pretty familiar with your work, and you should have a written record of boss’s thoughts.
      If you don’t have this meeting already planned, ask your boss for one. Don’t refer to the guy who was fired, just say, ‘I’d like a regular meeting to make sure you and I are on the same page’.
      Go to the meeting with the list of things you’ve accomplished, the things you plan to do, and a list of things that maybe could get done. Confirm that your accomplishments and plans are where the boss wants your attention, and ask if there’s any suggestions on prioritizing plans.
      Follow up with an email that has the list of accomplishments, plans, priority suggestion, and a ‘thanks for your help, boss person!’

    2. fposte*

      How long have you been there, and how much contact do you have with him? Can you ask for regular check-ins if you don’t have them already?

    3. Phoenix Programmer*

      That sounds like a serious performance during to me. Some things are so bad it warrants skipping the pip.

      Follow the advice above for your own performance but I think “pending layoffs” is the wrong message to take from this event.

    4. Girasol*

      It might not be what you’re imagining. It might have been gross underperformance or he might have broken one of the unbendable rules like hitting someone or theft. One person quietly and immediately walked from his job isn’t usually the signal for a major layoff in a big company. But if you have a reasonably friendly relationship with your manager, you can probably say, “I know Fergus left us. And it made me wonder: is there anything I should be concerned about with respect to my job? Should I be doing anything differently?” A good manager generally understands that a sudden exit can worry people and will help you understand your situation (without, of course, explaining what happened to Fergus.)

    5. Specialk9*

      Do what people here are saying, but this sounds like a situation in which the guy who was blocked from entering did something dumb or scary. I had a boss once who disappeared after sending a ranting email to the CEO. (Well, that was the scuttlebutt; it sounded possible.) Other times it could be that they looked up porn at work, or beat up a co-worker over the weekend or some such. Don’t let it get you too jumpy if they don’t usually do the front-door block for regular layoffs.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Porn. This is so true. I know of a person who was caught with porn on their computer and they were quietly asked to take early retirement. On the surface they were there one day and gone the next. Some offenses are such that there is no coming back from them. The person just has to leave.

      3. The Layoff Worrier*

        “Do what people here are saying, but this sounds like a situation in which the guy who was blocked from entering did something dumb or scary.”

        I can’t picture this guy doing something questionable, but he was also very quiet. He basically just quietly worked at his desk and barely spoke. So it could’ve been that he was told to shape up but ignored it. Or it could’ve been a case of the quiet guy exploding. Who knows?

        Another guy was let go in the same way a couple of months ago, so I can’t help but be a little jumpy. I’ll directly ask my boss about my performance but without mentioning the firings. Thanks!

    6. Observer*

      Sure, there are bosses who fire people with no warning. But it’s highly unlikely that he was met by security at the door and escorted out due to performance issues in the normal sense. Of course, if they mean performance in the sense that they discovered something outrageous about his performance, that could explain it – the key word being outrageous.* But, in any case this doesn’t sound like a situation that is likely to portend a surprise firing.

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, ask about it. Not in a “Ooooh, I want the gossip on Fergus!” way, but “Is what happened to Fergus a sign of how the company handles less than great performance?” kind of way. Of course, don’t be confrontational about it, but make it clear that you are not interested in gossip, but just to know if you need to worry.

      * For example
      A letter carrier in NYC spent a period of time neglecting to actually deliver letters. Instead, he would bring them home and dump them. (When I googled to find the story, it turns out that it has happened more than once.)

  21. Mona Lisa*

    Do you tailor a LinkedIn profile the same way you might a resume?

    I’ve done some awkward jumping around in my career, and after spending a week at a conference and connecting with people on LinkedIn, I’m concerned how my work history might read to some of them. I went from being an admin assistant at my first job to a system administrator at my next by way of the classic non-profit “Oh, you have a little experience in X? Great, you’re our expert now.” That workplace was frankly pretty toxic, and I started looking for an out around the one year mark. I spent two years as an admin assistant again (making 28% more than at the Awful Non-Profit), but there was finally an opening for a systems admin in the same CRM at my current organization so I’m back on a career track that I want to pursue long-term.

    I worry what it looks like for my resume to go assistant -> admin -> assistant -> admin and was wondering if I should take that assistant positions off my LinkedIn in the same way I might a resume? That would leave me with several years gap in work experience though (my 3 years as an assistant currently outweighs my 1.25 years as an admin) so I can’t decide which is the right way to go.

    Thanks for any advice or thoughts you might have!

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      I wouldn’t take it off of my resume/linked in if it leaves a huge gap. I went from being an admin asst to an office manager and then to an admin asst. The place I was an office manager unexpectedly closed so I had to take whatever I could after temping. My current admin role pays huge salary over that office manager for $12/hr job. If anyone even asks you could just explain like you did here. That when you joined the non profit they asked you to do this. Or state in the bullet points (if you were I was unclear) promoted to sys admin at the non profit. I think Alison has a post about including promotions into job titles on resumes.

  22. Anonymous for this*

    Does anyone have any experience with non-profit arts orgs (specifically professional orchestras) and terrible/corrupt management? We musicians are at a loss as to how to proceed and need HELP.

    The orchestra I’ve been performing with for 12 years recently fired its conductor of nine years for no good reason. The Board was likely given bogus reasons from the board president and from the new exec dir, who has been with the org for only a year, as to why they should fire him. Orch members are FURIOUS and we are trying to figure out what to do about the situation. From what we’ve heard, the board pres and the new ED are both manipulative and somehow managed to convince the board to oust the conductor in favor of the ED (who, did I mention, has only been here a year???). The conductor is VERY musical and had gotten incredible results from the musicians and had also raised a lot of money for the org, enough to get us out of debt (!), whereas the ED has done…very little, except managed to get us $60k back in debt (in the course of a year) and blamed the conductor for it. ED also accused the personnel managers of lying when there’s proof that he was the one who lied, and various other ridiculous situations (long story; this is merely a very brief summary).

    Do we have any recourse here? Can we oust the board pres and/or the ED (preferably both)? How would we go about doing so? HELP.

      1. Anonymous for this*

        Thanks. I’m not sure where I can find the bylaws though. Would I have to ask the Board? (They are, not surprisingly, being pretty non-responsive as of late.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ah, I’m sorry, I read too quickly and thought you were a board member. I just realized you’re not. Your best bet here is to approach the board as a group and share your concerns. The more of you, the better.

          1. Anonymous for this*

            Thank you! I was thinking about us doing this so it’s great to know that that is a good idea.

            1. no one in particular*

              From the setup you described, I don’t think you have much official recourse, but you can try to use the power of persuasion that Alison recommends. The board president is the head of the organization, and the executive director and the conductor/music director serve at the pleasure of the board. The only way any of those three people are going to be ousted is if the board votes in favor of it. I’ve never seen an organization where a musician was an actual member of the board (only ex-officio), so unfortunately you don’t hold that kind of power in the organization.

              As someone who is involved in the industry, I would say this: when you approach the board, focus on the positives of the conductor and her relationship with the patron community, donors, and musicians. Leave out any part about supposed shenanigans between the ED and the board president. Even if something fishy went on, your case will be much stronger and more well received if you focus on the positives rather than point the finger and allege wrongdoing of the very people you are trying to get onto your side (the board).

      1. Anonymous for this*

        We are not unionized, unfortunately, but we have asked some union people for advice. For one, we should probably unionize.

        1. No Green No Haze*

          I don’t have great hopes.

          I’ve been in and around non-profit arts organizations with horrible management, including one professional symphony orchestra, and the only thing I can tell you is that this is the single reason unions exist — to give you the resources that get you a seat at the table with an employer who might otherwise be unwilling to consider your concerns.

          My experience with non-unionized arts organizations that are also crappy to their employees (the one does not necessarily imply the other) is that you don’t have a lot of recourse in this moment, unless your ousted conductor was popular with a major donor who happens to be good buddies with one of your orchestra members. But, unearned income and the well-heeled people who provide it are the board’s home turf, and getting in the middle of that is a terribly dangerous idea.

          If you’re in the US & you’ve talked to the AFM, do you have the sense that their organizing/outreach wing is competent and understands nuance? I would ask them about the pros and cons of starting an organizing campaign immediately: if the board sees you begin the process of debating unionization, it may decide to take your concerns seriously in order to head that off, or it may retaliate. I would chat with the professionals to evaluate those likelihoods. Does your orchestra itself have any governing board or group to represent musicians’ concerns internally or w/r/t employers? If so, such a group should absolutely consider add unionization to its agenda for discussion with all members. The AFM may also have some useful guidance about media relations, as well, if this firing is having a community impact that can be leveraged.

          Are there any volunteer organizations affiliated with the orchestra, like a volunteers’ guild or patrons’ groups, who could be looped into these discussions? Did the conductor have professional relationships with community partners like schools or businesses who might themselves be surprised or affected by his termination?

    3. Another Musician*

      How large of an organisation are we talking about? A musicians strike is often the only recourse you have in these situations, but that comes with the risk of being replaced by an unsuspecting player who just needs to pay their electric bill.
      Even if you’re not AGMA, you should see if they’re willing to give you some guidance. Arts admin is rife with shady shit because personal charisma is a huge selling point with donors.

    4. A.Ham*

      This sounds very similar to something that happened awhile ago at a theater company in the city I used to live in. (I did not work at that company, but I am in the industry and have a lot of friends who worked there at the time, so the information is first hand, but I may be missing some details, since I wasn’t directly involved.) In that case, the reason the Board made the decision it did (to oust the long time, much loved artistic director, and give the new managing director both jobs. ) was because they were going through some pretty major financial hardships, and the managing director convinced them that that was the best thing to do. It was the wrong decision. There was an UPROAR. From the staff. From the artists. From the community at large. Daily protests happened outside the building, so now the company had financial problems AND a PR problem. They eventually managed to fix the mess, but it involved a long visit from the founder of the company (from 50 years ago) a pretty public firing of the MD, the return of the AD, a very large one time donation from an anonymous donor , and a long-term fundraising campaign that continued on throughout the season.

      Was your conductor popular with the fans/community too? I don’t want to be an instigator of mayhem- calculate the risks and rewards in your particular situation – but these days a well written “op-ed” style piece that gets around social media could do a lot to get the Board’s attention. But it shouldn’t be written by a musician- then it just feels like whining. It should be by a prominent member of the community or perhaps a newspaper critic that has been kind to you in the past and feels a dedication to the company. It’s amazing how much a community will rally around a beloved arts organization if they feel like it is in trouble.

    5. Argh!*

      Nuclear option: tip off a reporter for the local paper & offer documentation of the financial aspect. No need to get into the internal politics. “Orchestra in Financial Trouble” in a newspaper headline will get some attention. How did you find out about the debt? If it was easy to come by that information, a reporter may be able to keep you (or you-all) anonymous for this.

      Good luck!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely figure out where the money comes from, large donors, taxpayer money whatever. If they are an official tax deductible organization somewhere in your state is a government official who is paid to be interested when someone says, “corruption”. They must have their books reviewed by an outside party.

    6. Anonymous for this*

      Thanks, everyone!!!! All very good advice and I’m bookmarking this page for future reference. These are all ideas we’d come up with but no one in the group was very sure which one would be the best or in what order we should try. Next step is contacting the Board and letting them know how many of us are upset. Then asking the state to look into the money issue and then possibly contacting the press. I’ll try to keep everyone posted about how this turns out, but I think it’s going to get a lot uglier before it gets better.

  23. Fenchurch*

    How do you work with a boss who’s not good at communicating?

    I have been in my new role for about 6 weeks now, and it’s been a bumpy ride at best. The main issue is the manager who appears to be spread too thin. Unlike previous managers, she did not provide me her phone number, despite multiple attempts to get it. She’s often forgetting to do things for weeks and brushing off issues that I have.

    She’s left it to me and my teammate to figure out what our goals are and hasn’t been able to provide our job description to us to help shape them, again despite multiple attempts to get them.

    It’s frustrating because all of my previous managers have been top tier, and she’s fallen so incredibly short. I know I’m only one of 20+ employees she’s managing across 3 teams, but surely there must be some way to still manage me!

    I’m also concerned about my year end review. I have serious doubts about her ability to properly assess my work since she’s barely spent 10 minutes with me.

    1. Girasol*

      Sometimes it works if you repeat back the goals of the team and your own personal goals and priorities for confirmation of your understanding. Sounds like there’s nothing to repeat here, since she hasn’t told you, but you can make a good guess. If she can’t formulate goals, your statement can give her a stepping stone, so she can say, “Well, not exactly that, but this” when she was unable to say “I want this” starting cold.

    2. Argh!*

      Do you work for my boss???? Oh wait, my boss only has trouble managing 6 people!

      This flattening of organizational structures fad has been bad for everyone but the C-Suite people who used the money that middle managers used to get to line their wallets (I lost my job to this kind of thing 8 years ago.)

      My manager is “too busy” because she’s a micromanager for the stupid stuff, which makes her an undermanager for the important things.

      Yours will either:

      1) Give you a glowing review rather than bother truly assessing you.

      or

      2) Give you a vaguely negative review and tell you it’s because you’re “new” but really it’s just due to not wanting to truly assess you and guessing that being new means not being up to speed yet.

      To protect yourself you can document everything you do and if you have to provide something like that for your review you’ll be ready. Even if you don’t *have* to, you may be able to sneak in some paperwork that shows how stellar you are. Of course you and the other 20 people may have knee-jerk, gut-check reviews without one glance at what you truly do (assuming your boss is like my boss, here). But all you can do is all you can do.

    3. Specialk9*

      Well, you aren’t going to change her (she won’t give you get phone number?!), so your choices become: leave or adapt. Adapt may mean focusing on getting good performance reviews.

      You need to take charge and manage yourself, and make her life easy as possible. And silver lining, it’s an opportunity to get things done the way you think they should be. Write goals you can meet easily (without being too obvious), then provide a weekly status report (action items for her in bold italics). Be thorough and document everything so if she asks for X, you can give her ‘Golden X With Tiara’. You basically want to be the employee who so totally has her stuff together, and makes her both impressed and vaguely guilty.

  24. Lauren*

    If you are an exempt employee, how much extra time can you be required to put in? I’m a high school teacher, and regularly average 50-60 hours per week, while my contract hours are 35 per week (all but 7 hours of that is spent actively teaching ). Despite this amount of time spent working, I still have stuff that needs to be done and constantly feel behind. I feel like I should be spending more time working.

    Also, is it reasonable to ask how much time per week are should be spending on certain tasks? Or even just percentage of time? Like, can I ask if I should spend a minimum 3 hours a week planning, minimum 2 hours calling parents, etc? Or can I ask if I should spent 20% of my time planning, 15% of my time calling home, etc? Is that reasonable?

    As far as I know, none of this is covered by our contract – only the duty hours, which is only for 35 hours per week.

    Thanks!

    1. selina kyle*

      Oof – teachers are a whole other ballgame. There’s a whole culture of needing to put in extra time. My mom’s a teacher and eventually started just allowing herself certain amounts of time. By now, she spends three hours on Saturday/Sunday, and about an hour half of the working week. It’s been really good for her to limit the time she spends on it – accepting that things will be good enough if not perfect seems to be a real challenge in teaching.
      I hope that helps a little – I know teachers deal with doing way more work than their contracted hours. :(

    2. blackcat*

      Are you early in your career?

      I ask because my first year teaching, I was regularly working 60-70 hours/week. By my third year, it was more like 45-55, with a few golden weeks down around 40. FWIW, I also coached an academic team (not sports), which added zero time in off season but up to 15 hours/week during competition times, with one brutal week a year of back to back 12 hour days on the weekend (damn those kids and always making it to the state competition!).

      I think it’s fine to ask coworkers how they handle keeping up with tasks. It’ll be most beneficial to have these conversations with folks who teach the same subject as you (eg, I was a science teacher, I spent a bit less time grading than some colleagues but A LOT more setting up labs/ordering & maintaining equipment/etc). Do not ask your boss. They will not have a useful answer, and they might think you are tone-deaf for asking.

      This is what experienced colleagues are for. Get their help. Lots of it.

      If there are no folks at your school with 10+ years of teaching that you can talk to, I’d go outside your school for advice (and, frankly, consider working elsewhere).

    3. A.N.O.N.*

      50-60 hours per week is very normal for teachers.

      My partner is in his 3rd year of teaching and between actual classes, lesson planning, grading, helping students before/after school, supervising a club, and writing college recommendation letters, he easily spends 55+ hours per week.

      If you’re having trouble managing the workload, definitely try to find a more experienced (and successful) teacher within your school and let them mentor you. Network with other teachers who teach the same subject so you can use their lesson plans, etc. It’ll get easier each school year.

      1. zora*

        I just want to +39348293 the ‘ask for help from more experienced teachers’ in your school, my mom just retired this year, but she was always happy to hand off as many of her plans and lessons to new teachers to help them get started. Keep asking around until you find the most supportive colleagues, even if they teach a different grade, they still might have stuff or advice to give that will help you get going.

        That said, my mom worked 12 hour days + 10-15 hours on weekends as long as I can remember. It’s definitely one of the worst things about teaching, and if you really don’t want to do it you should start thinking about alternative career paths now that you might take in a couple of years. Teaching college-level education, administration, specialist, curriculum development, etc, there are non-classroom options that you can leverage your education background into, but it takes a little more work than just following the classroom path, so you want to start doing some research. There are a lot more forprofits/tech startups working in the education field than there were even a few years ago, so consider that as an angle as well.

    4. fposte*

      Federally speaking, there’s no limit to the hours an exempt employee can be asked to work; some states have exceptions like the one day in seven rule, but even there there are loopholes and it’s not always clear that it would apply to teachers doing prep work at home. It would be up to your contract, and from what you say your contract doesn’t stipulate a limit to work hours, just duty hours. (Are you union? This is a good question for a union rep, if so.)

    5. FormerOP*

      Have you read Getting Things Done? It was a lifesaver for me a few years ago. One of the points is, that we don’t manage time, we manage tasks. Highly, highly recommended. You’ll get more done if you focus on tasks rather than time.

    6. Lauren*

      Hi – thanks for the comments!

      I’m actually in my 4th year of teaching, 3rd year at my current school. I enjoy teaching, but I just feel like this job is taking up too much of me. I keep wondering when enough is enough, especially since it seems like they just add more and more stuff we need to do each year on top of what we have already been doing.

      I’m managing everything okay at this point, but I always have other things that need/want to get done that I don’t because I don’t have enough time. I just wish I knew what was the limit beyond which I can feel like I can say “this is enough and I don’t need to do more”. I was talking with a co-worker, and we both agreed we could easily work from 7:30 am to 9:30 pm, and still have stuff we’d want to do.

      I also wonder why it’s okay to do this to people in certain professions – there’s bound to be diminishing returns after a certain point. I know teaching isn’t the only profession like this.

      I’m more than willing to spend extra time at my position, I just want to know how much more than contracted is expected of me. I feel like that’s a reasonable request, but perhaps not?

      1. Julianne*

        I think the issue is more that administrators are likely to say, “Well, you’re not required to do anything beyond contract hours, that’s why you have prep time.” (Exceptions would be if you have some sort of extra compensation for specific work, ex. I’m my school’s ESL lead, on top of my teaching responsibilities, and I get a stipend because that role comes with a stupid amount of paperwork.) One of my coworkers recently spoke to our VP about her workload, and VP’s first question wasn’t “How can we adjust your workload to keep it manageable?” or “Can you tell me more about your workload?” but rather “How are your time management skills?”

        To be clear, I’m in exactly the same boat and I agree 100%: we have way too much to do, too little time, and it’s not sustainable. Unfortunately I don’t see most administrators being willing and/or able to address the problem.

      2. zora*

        Well, it’s still a little different for teachers, so my mom would frame it differently.

        It’s not really about what is expected by your boss usually, one upside of being a teacher is that it’s not usually very easy to fire teachers, and most principals don’t fire a bunch of teachers for not working ‘enough’ extra hours. (especially bc my mom was in a unionized district, but that might not be your situation)

        So, it’s really about setting your own boundaries and priorities. She would say you should give yourself a time limit for each day/week. Do what you can until 6:00pm, for example, and just stop. Your kids will still be fine, and you will always come up with more things you want to do than you have time to do.

        Anecdote time: My mom had one teacher in her grade who walked out the door 15 minutes after buses left every single day. All the other teachers were frustrated that she was so unwilling to anything extra, but she worked until she was ready to retire, and never ‘got in trouble’ with her bosses or anything.

        On the other hand, my mom’s best friend teacher would stay until 8-9 at night every night, and do at least 20 hours of work every week, because she was a control freak and just always had 20 ‘just one more’ things that she just had to do. Most of them were purely superficial things like recovering books or making personalized cubby signs for each month. She also worked until she was ready to retire, and never got any additional accolades, raises or anything for working so many more hours than Teacher 1.

        In my mom’s experience, being a teacher is really about being self-directed more than you’d think, and deciding for yourself how much energy you want to put into your curriculum and students. So, I would encourage you to start figuring out what you want your boundaries to be and setting up your own priorities/rewards system for yourself. That’s not something your boss does for you like in other professions.

        1. A.N.O.N.*

          +1000

          Teaching is so self-directive. There’s also a teacher at my partner’s school who told the principal that he needs the weekends/personal time to recharge and thus refuses to do any extra work on the weekends or after school. Some of the other teachers frown upon that sort of attitude (in part because it can put more administrative work on them), but it is allowed.

          It can be hard to set up boundaries because it’s something you care so much about. And since you’re no longer a new teacher, your principal may be putting more non-teaching duties on your plate. If that’s the case, I think it’s totally ok to tell her that those things are eating up too much of your time and that you need to scale back.

      3. Specialk9*

        I get indignant on teachers’ behalf, a lot. You guys get conned early on, by idealism and loving kids and knowledge. Then they pull the Women’s Work BS on you – get this crazy expensive amount of schooling, but we’ll pay you like janitors, expect you to work nonstop, expand the scope to actually raising many kids for their parents, and often get abused by parents without administrative protection. Um, sign me up.

        I think teachers are heroes, but you couldn’t pay me enough to be one! (Which is ironic because the pay is SO low compared to office jobs!)

      4. Humble Schoolmarm*

        Oh, four years in is the worst for “I can’t keep this up long term!” And your co-worker is right, there is never, ever a point of ‘all done’ in teaching. The trick is, to accept that teaching will take up every second of time you give it and, paradoxically, give it less time. I also felt that I had to work all the time and couldn’t do anything for me when I was at your point in my career (I’m at 8 years now), but I was also feeling burnt out so I took up one non-school activity and took that one night “off”. The kids survived and I started to feel human again. I’m up to three evening hobbies, and I know I can’t do more, but the balance is a bit better.

        1. Julianne*

          Yeah, I’m in my 4th year (3rd at my school, same as Lauren the OP), and in a lot of ways, this year is so much harder than my first year. Every week I’m bouncing between how is it already the Nth week/how is it only the Nth week. In past years, I’ve struggled because of challenging kids, this year I have challenging adults on top of it.

    7. Specialk9*

      I only work extra hours if something’s burning (both literally and figuratively) – but I check email all the time and respond at night and on weekends. Teachers get taken advantage of hard, in comparison to us office drones.

    8. urban teacher*

      I don’t bring work home at this point. If I don’t do an administrative task in the day, then it won’t get done. Unfortunately, districts and the federal government have decided that teachers are expendible and incompetent hence the extra paperwork. My lesson plans are now 12 or up pages. I have figured out shortcuts in order to produce them.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      I think it depends on a lot of things. I’m in Canada, so my experience is different, but this is my 14th year. Here is what I can tell you.

      1. Things will get easier eventually. I’ve been teaching the same subject for years, and I’m not expected to write big lesson plans anymore. I do keep my planbooks from year to year so I can see where I am now relative to last year. Eventually, you just know (which I know is not helpful right now).

      2. New teachers in their first few years often get a bit screwed by the whole “prove yourself” mentality. They often get the crappy timetable (enjoy teaching ten classes of health that no one else has room for in their schedule!) and they take on extra stuff, like coaching, to prove they should be hired on permanently. It can be easy to burn out.

      3. It does eventually get easier in time, especially if you teach the same subject, or same kids, or coach the same thing. But it takes time. This year I am teaching six classes (including a subject I’ve never taught before, so that’s been a bit crazy), running an overseas trip, advising the student council, and working to renegotiate our collective agreement. I don’t coach, I don’t do other clubs.

      4. I agree with other posters: find an experienced colleague if you can for mentorship. Talk to your admin and say you would benefit from having a mentor. Ideally in the same subject area. If nothing else, they can tell you how to make things faster and more efficient in some ways.

      5. Protect your private time. I used to either stay at school until 8pm, or bring a ton of work home. Now, occasionally I will stay until 6 (in some circumstances, like if I have a ton of big projects to mark) but I will leave at 6 and I never take work home anymore. No one noticed I was doing this insane work, it certainly didn’t win me a prize or respect or anything, and just made me crazy. Home time is for home now.

      6. If you are unionised or have a collective agreement, read it to see if it says anything about instructional time or assignable time. Where I am, instructional time is capped at 907 hours a year, and assignable time (which includes instruction, supervision, parent-teacher interviews, etc – basically anything your employer tells you you have to do) is capped at, I believe, 1200 hours year (which means just under 300 hours of assignable above instructional). How that time is distributed is partly up to your boss, and partly up to you. You can (and are) told what classes to teach, where to supervise and when, and what time to arrive and leave. You should also get a certain amount of prep time. How you allocate your prep time is usually up to you. There is no clear answer about what percentage you should spend planning, or calling, etc. FWIW, I hardly ever call home. If there’s an issue, I email. I can do this while my students are writing a test, etc. For teachers where there’s an expectation of constant communication (elementary, etc often have a weekly communication), a mass email is usually better and faster.

      7. Speaking of email, take it off your phone. Don’t answer after a certain time (say 7pm). I tell my students that I don’t read email after 8pm because I’m old and need my beauty sleep. If your admin has directed you to be available always to answer emails, that could be considered assignable time. (Also assignable time, in some places: being told to arrive at a certain time and stay until a certain time. So if you are told to arrive at 8, let’s say, but classes don’t start until 8:30, that’s a half hour con assignable time every day. If classes end at 3 but you need to stay until 3:30, that’s another half hour every day. It adds up fast.)

      Sorry this is a bit scrambled. Hopefully things get better for you soon!

  25. MechanicalPencil*

    What are your workplace annoyances today?

    I have someone telling me that a white logo is FINE for print purposes. Yes. I like having invisible ink on my print pieces. White is totally a printable color because they TOTALLY make WHITE INK for WHITE PAPER.

    1. Squeeble*

      Ha!

      Mine is a double charge on an expense report that I can’t fix without calling the bank. Just a pain.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I am working from home today and am using Microsoft Remote Desktop on a Mac. Which means I have to use control to do things, not command. Which I forget. Every. Time.

      1. Buffy*

        My workplace implemented virtual desktops on our PCs, and I have a Mac at home and cannot get it to work! Asked IT a bunch, they said to download the Microsoft Remote Desktop app and then when I asked what the input things should be for the info it asks when it comes up, they just shrugged and said idk. Arghhhhhhhh.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          It actually works really well for me apart from the whole ‘stuff you’d press command for is mapped to control’ issue. But you do kind of need your IT team to give you the details!

          Ours goes like this: https://webaccess.WORKURL and then it’s the same username and password I use for Office and the intranet.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        I used to use a mac at home and Windows at work and the first hour at work and first hour at home every day were spent hitting the wrong ctrl/command key and swearing. I NEVER got used to the switch.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      It just got colder here, yes, it’s colder. Do we need to re-hash it multiple times during the day?? PUT ON A SWEATER!!!!

    4. CCF*

      I have been at the company for 11 years and have worked on a specific project for 8 of those years, now being the lead on it for at least 4 years in a row. Someone who started over the summer and is brand new to the project is trying to teach me about it.

      3. 2 Cents*

        I feel your pain. Been working in the field for 3 years. Someone who just started 4 months ago asked me if I needed a *tutorial* about a basic function of my field. I guess my secret superpower isn’t shooting lasers from my eyes, otherwise this guy would be toast!

    5. Mike C.*

      I’m getting so sick and tired of non-data people telling me exactly how they want their data visualized without understanding that there are a million better, easier and faster ways of getting the results they want.

      Then they wonder why I’m not finished. >.<

    6. Anon!*

      Haha! As a (fellow?) graphic designer I sympathize. One of my student interns will not stop formatting dates “December. 1” and I know it’s just a period and it’s easy to erase– but man, it’s driving me up a wall!

      1. Specialk9*

        I would be getting murdery. “December. 1” is nuts. I can’t even. 12/1 (or 1/12 in Europe), Dec 1, 1 December, December 1… All of those are ok.

    7. Turkletina*

      Some audio files I need have gone missing in transit from one server location to another. They’re not in the original location and they’re not in the new one, and if they’re not found I’m likely to miss a major deadline.

    8. Teal Green*

      I have a spreadsheet I’m responsible for distributing to Team Alpaca and gathering updates to the information. I am not the creator of the spreadsheet, that’s my counterpart on Team Llama. The spreadsheet has been released in a new version that the creator has locked part of and won’t share the password. Unfortunately, the labels are in the locked portion so my spreadsheet says Team Llama all over it and I can’t change it to Team Alpaca myself, I have to ask Lloyd from Team Llama to do it for me.

      Just let me have the &%#@! password so I can make it say Alpaca instead of Llama.

    9. Bluebell*

      Oh logos. Our multicolored logo is only supposed to be used on a white background. An internal invite went out this week against a colored background. This department refuses to use the solid white version Nails on a chalkboard to my eyes!

    10. zora*

      People being all ‘OMG we need this information NOWWWW, HURRY HURRY!!’, I scramble and get it to them, then radio silence for 2 weeks till they surface again asking me to start all over. Lovely.

      HR and Finance being strangely useless and always being either super vague, or just straight up screwing up every single thing we need them to do.

    11. Grumpity Grump*

      I share an office with a co-worker. This is mostly no issue, as it’s spacious and we have defined spaces. But co-worker makes and recieves Every. Single. Call. on speakerphone.

    12. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I have had 3 internal clients this week act like I’m nothing more than a trained monkey here to press whichever buttons they tell me to press. I’ve been a professional graphic designer for over 20 years and I’ve won 7 awards for my work in the last 10 years. These people are sending me “designs” they did in PowerPoint that they want me to simply copy at the correct resolution and specs in InDesign. No Rosemary, that’s you’re baby. You take care of it.

    13. Amadeo*

      I’m a web specialist at a university. About an hour ago I got an email from an admin asking me to convert a PDF to a Word doc. What logic cascade leads to ‘oh, I know, I’ll email Web for document conversion!’?

      Not to mention the PDF had selectable text. It would have taken half the time it took to email me and wait for a response to just copy and paste, type it back out (it was like 20 lines of bulleted text) or just open the flippin’ PDF in Word.

      1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        Im currently in a walking cast for a non work related injury. I’ve been called hop-along about a million times today. FYI Its not original and its not funny! Can I not just have sympathy for my condition?

    14. Fenchurch*

      Work has been so slow. But we have a phone queue that can be called by a client (this has happened exactly once in 4 weeks). Only me and one other person are charged with being “available” to answer calls. The other person is studying for an exam and has not been able to be on the queue. So I am glued to my desk watching an empty phone queue for 6+ hours a day because management is afraid someone will call without someone answering….

    15. KR*

      My coworker speaks SO LOUD when he is on the phone. And he is on the phone (personal conversations) extremely frequently. Buy some freaking headphones!!!

    16. Tiny Soprano*

      Oh I have a doozey. Our dishwasher disappeared. A tradie went upstairs to look at a tap, and with absolutely no instruction to do so removed our dishwasher and disposed of it. Needless to say both my manager and I are *very* annoyed.

    17. EasilyAmused*

      At last toxic job, a co-worker in an open office setting used a mechanical keyboard. The day he brought it in, he said “this is going to be really loud”. He also types very fast so it literally just sounded like someone frantically tapping a pen on a desk… All. Day. Long. Some of us couldn’t stand it and I shared my annoyance with a co-worker who was a friend. Eventually, the keyboard disappeared and I heard him say that the higher ups told him he couldn’t use it anymore because it was distracting.

      Cut to a few months later when friendly co-worker decided we weren’t friends anymore for reasons in her own head. She and another guy who were fully aware of said keyboard situation start shopping for them online right behind me. The next thing I know, there are now multiple mechanical keyboards clicking away behind me. It was a ridiculous situation with ridiculous people and I could not get out of there fast enough. (This story being one of many instances of toxic behavior at ridiculous workplace)

  26. Dee-Nice*

    I know there’s been talk on this blog before about legit uses of sick time, but how do managers feel about otherwise decent employees who use ALL their sick time?

    FWIW, I’m in academia. By several objective measures, I am a good employee. I got a great performance review for last year, a special bonus (not a usual thing for people in my role), a (small) merit raise, and outside email praise from a couple people affiliated with us. But I have small kids and since my youngest started daycare either she or I have been sick every month (I get one sick day per month and it rolls over forever). And I mean flat-on-my-back sick: flu-like virus one month, stomach bug the next, etc. It seems like I can’t accrue more than a day or two of “reserve” time before I’m down again for one reason or another. I also get 3 weeks of vacation and I take all of it every year.

    No one has ever given me any crap for taking sick time, but I see so many conflicting opinions online that I worry it’s affecting my optics without my knowing. I also worry that it will hold me back if I ever want to go after promotional opportunities. Thoughts/opinions?

    1. DuckDuckGoose*

      This is just my opinion so your department and university culture may vary:

      I supervised a department where the work was very heavily student oriented. We had specific hours to be available. It made everyone’s shift more intense (less time on non-student facing tasks) when people were out and it was a little hard to contain staff’s negative emotions when the same person was out for 4-5 days every month. It’s hard to balance someone being truly sick and also needing them there consistently. But doesn’t sound like you’re in a particularly “service” oriented academic position, so I honestly think you’re fine. Your work is getting done, you’ve been getting great feedback, I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if you were in a service-type role, it doesn’t sound like you have a history of calling off this much so that should work for you. If you’re concerned, I’d just ask your department head.

      My employees earned about 1-2 days of sick time per month and it didn’t roll over. I talked to them about using it all and we discussed days that would work for everyone for them to “call out sick” so they didn’t lose time off they’d earned. I am staunchly in the camp of You Earned This Time You Get To Use It.

    2. Jules the Third*

      Tolerance for sick days varies by office culture. Mine doesn’t care, esp since we can work from home easily. I’d say check with your boss, but that risks making them focus on something that maybe hasn’t registered, and then having selection bias make it a problem where it wasn’t before. Maybe check in with people at your level (even if in other depts) about how much of their sick time they use?

      Also, since it seems regular, have your ‘sick time protocol’ in place and available to whomever has to take over while you’re sick.

      If it helps any, we had the same problem the whole time my kid was in day care. It gets better later in the year and as your kids get older, though we still have a regular cold every September when everyone gets back from summer vacation. Make sure you get your flu shots, and maybe pick up a 1-a-day vitamin for you. My experience has been that no amount of hand-washing / coughing into your elbow does more than delay transmission for a couple of days, so I focused on boosting my immune system.

      If you’re managing the time out well, a lot of employers will be understanding while the kids are small.

    3. Dr. Doll*

      I think it depends upon your role. I have heard of people in more admin-type roles not being chosen for better positions because they were “earner burners” (among other reasons). But it doesn’t seem to be an issue for people higher up on the food chain. This is probably because the higher ups are exempt and tend to keep working no matter where they are or how they feel, whereas the hourly admin types are *not allowed* to work if they are out, so the direct impact is greater.

      Are you taking vacation as planned vacation, or having to use it to cover sick time? That might also play into the optics.

    4. Dee-Nice*

      Thanks for these replies!

      A little background: my position is not very front-facing or student-focused, but I do support two or three pretty important people, mainly doing scheduling. I have never missed work the day of something important (and last winter I came in with a fever to run an event I’d been planning for months– I know, not great, but there was literally no one to delegate to and I was not coughing and I didn’t shake hands with anyone). I have used one vacation day to cover sick time. Even though I’m not “allowed” to work when I’m out, I check my email anyway and forward any urgent requests to another peer colleague (this is almost never necessary). I use my away message to refer people to my colleagues but I strongly encourage my them to only handle urgent matters and let anything else wait till I get back in the next day or two.

      1. Wheezy Weasel*

        I think you’ve handled things in the most appropriate manner possible, especially if you’re still keeping an eye on email and forwarding any ‘this issue is on fire’ emails but not responding to regular correspondence. I’ve had some people tell me that these email fires aren’t my problem if I’m sick, but I always had to clean up the ashes from those fires after I got back so I decided it was my call either way.

    5. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I think unless your sick time causes work logjams or missed deadlines or extra work for someone else, I can’t see why anyone would care. Unless your office is staffed with the “I never take a sick day” types who come in sick and spread their viruses hither and yon, who seem to feel that staying home sick is a moral failing. Most reasonable people know that kids get sick and that as a result, you will get sick, and would far rather you stay home. If you’re getting your work done and not impacting deadlines or projects, I wouldn’t worry too much. I assume that if you weren’t, someone would have mentioned it by now.

    6. Nan*

      I don’t enjoy it when my people use all their sick time, but I deal with it. It’s a benefit we offer, so they can use it.

      It does bug me because then if they have an extended illness or emergency, then they are out of time, and have to take it unpaid. I feel that we are pretty generous and people really shouldn’t run out, and that giving extra time off, even if it is unpaid is sort of an extra benefit.

      I accrue about 1 day every two weeks, so if I used all mine, I would consider that excessive. But, those who have been here less time earn less, we are on a sliding scale of how many days you get. So it kinda depends there, too.

      Our PTO is all in a lump bucket, it doesn’t separate sick from vacation, so if they use all their time and then complain they don’t any time for vacation, I shut that fussing down real quick.

      1. Yorick*

        Unpaid time off to be sick isn’t a benefit. Don’t you think they’d rather be healthy and making money?

        1. Specialk9*

          Yorick, unpaid time off really is a benefit – the benefit is not losing one’s job. It’s all the protection the US government gives to females with the temerity to procreate: a scant 3 months of unpaid leave without losing one’s job, but many people don’t even get that protection.

      2. Specialk9*

        You earn 2 days of sick leave every month?!?!?! So you get **24** sick days a year?! I’m literally gasping here. I get five a year, period, full stop.

        1. Drew*

          I think that’s all leave time lumped together. My office does something very similar, and we cap at four weeks – so managers are encouraged to keep an eye on subordinates’ leave and encourage them to take days off if they’re getting close to the cap rather than losing leave time they’re entitled to. Plus, our company president REALLY hates having sick employees in the building, so if we as much as sniffle, he asks us if we need to take a sick day.

    7. cornflower blue*

      Most places I’ve worked have tended to grant (informal) leeway to parents of young children when it comes to sick leave. It’s understood that daycare and preschool are germ factories, kids need to be minded when they’re unwell, and they’re contagious as he11.

      1. Natalie*

        That’s been my experience as well. People are pretty understanding that someone with young kids has their own sickness + kid sickness to deal with, and adjust their expectations accordingly.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Some bosses get really ticked from what I have seen. Other bosses just shrug and say, “That is what it is there for.”
      The only time I have seen it bite anyone is when there are other problems going on.

    9. copy run start*

      Not a boss, but the only times I’ve had issues with coworkers was when it really appeared to be abuse of the system. For example, constantly going home sick on Friday afternoon, exclusively in the summer, when we all know you have a lake cabin 2 hours away you visit every summer weekend….

  27. selina kyle*

    Started a new job about two months ago and I still feel like I’m not doing enough. It’s a slow season for some aspects of my job, but it feels like other areas I should have more to do. I have a lot of downtime and when I mention to my boss that I’d love to take on my responsibilities, she never has anything for me. It’s a little frustrating, but I do love other parts of the job.

    1. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I had that same issue when I started – my job is primarily relationship-based, and there’s not much I can do until I’ve built those relationships. It’s only now, 5 months in, that I feel like I’m truly getting started. But I just hate that feeling of sitting around doing nothing! Just keep reminding yourself this is a normal part of the job, and take advantage of the slower time now (if you can) in preparation for the crazy busy times of year.

    2. Angie G.*

      I feel the same way with my job and I’ve been here a year and a half. Unfortunately some positions just need warm bodies but not much to do. It bothered me at first but now I enjoy it. I started learning a new language a year ago so I study and chat with people on Skype that I’ve met from different countries, I plan my vacations (seriously have about 5 years of vacations planned lol), I budget my finances, I make to do lists, plan my work outs and meals for the week. It’s actually kinda nice!

    3. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I went through this also. What kept me busy was writing out steps in the processes I was learning about. I made my own study guides/cheat sheets for my job. I read industry publications at my desk. I did a bunch of online training courses. I made a list of emergency numbers (911, building security, closest hospital, etc.) to post in my cubicle (lol, what a nerd). I also spent a bit of time internet browsing, which wasn’t work related, but it kept me from falling asleep at my desk. Eventually, the volume of work did pick up.

  28. Amber Rose*

    So it turns out one of our new employees is a veteran. We were gonna get a card for him, but the stores don’t carry any. So we’re going to make a card for him instead and get everyone to sign that. We spent 10 minutes debating relative paper quality (like, yellow card stock VS white glossy). Only really quietly in whispers because we want to surprise him later.

    It’s little things like this that remind me the people who work here are good people. Kind of a nice way to end the week.

    2. Lumen*

      I’m so glad other offices are doing things for veterans on staff. Post-service life can be difficult to varying degrees, and there really is not enough support.

      Almost a quarter of my company’s total # of employees are veterans, which is awesome in and of itself. They sent out an email this morning recognizing all of them and thanking them for their service, and the activities committee at HQ made little presents of red, white, and blue popcorn for the local servicemembers. Also in our monthly meeting this morning, one of the C-suite took a moment to also recognize people we work with who have family members in the military.

      It’s just a nice thing to do, and takes so little effort, to just say ‘thank you’. You don’t have to be one party or another, and as someone once told me, “you don’t have to be pro-war to be pro-soldier”. I love that you all whispered about what kind of card to make for your new coworker. That’s incredibly kind.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I like him, he’s a nice person and he works hard. I’m glad someone knew that he was a veteran so we could thank him today (I had no idea). His card turned out pretty well too. :)

    3. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      That is super sweet and considerate of you, but for others, I just want people to be aware that vets don’t universally like being thanked for their service. My partner is a disabled vet (3 tours of duty in Afghanistan, considered 100% disabled by the VA due to injuries he sustained while in the military), and he absolutely hates being thanked for his service. He knows that people mean well when they thank him, but he also has business cards printed up asking people not to thank him, but to vote instead (also on the back of the cards is a list of his favorite veterans’ organizations that people can donate to).

      1. Amber Rose*

        See, I briefly worried about this, but then I figured a card is low-key enough that if he doesn’t like it, he can just say so and we won’t do it again.

      1. Specialk9*

        Veterans Day – it’s a day for thanking soldiers and former soldiers for their service and sacrifice. Memorial Day is a separate government holiday for honoring soldiers who died. Outside the government, companies may give Veterans Day off work but I think most don’t (?) while Memorial Day is usually a day off.

        1. Thlayli*

          Oh yeah they do that remembrance thing in Britain too, I forgot about that. The 11th day of the 11th month and all that.

  29. AnonAndOn*

    Did anyone here watch “The Job Interview,” the show that premiered Wednesday that was mentioned here last week? It is as much as a reality TV mess as it was predicted to be. Each episode focuses on a business that is looking for a new employee. The first two episodes aired were for Xendoo (looking for a bookkeeper) and Love Cork Screw (looking for a brand ambassador). Each employer has five candidates that they were interviewing. The girl in the shorts that I mentioned standing out to me in the preview last week was even worse than expected. She interviewed for Love Cork Screw, seemed high, and mentioned being a free spirit. She looked like she rolled out of bed. The sweaty guy was also bad. He also interviewed for Love Cork Screw and was inarticulate. When he tried to use tissue to wipe the sweat off of him some of it stuck to his face.

    I didn’t like some of the questions that Xendoo asked. I feel that there’s a better way to ask how organized a person is than “What does your closet look like?” When asked “Tell me about yourself,” one Xendoo candidate mentioned being from Colombia and being raised by a single mom. One of the Love Cork Screw candidates mentioned being homeless. That stuff may fly on reality TV but shouldn’t be brought up in interviews.

    Only a few candidates wore suits to their interviews. While the woman in shorts was the worst, there were women without blazers and men without ties. No one came with a portfolio or a hard copy of their resume.

    When the show said that the five top candidates were picked to be interviewed for these organizations, I thought, “They’re probably the best of those who’d be willing to appear on reality TV! The better candidates probably said ‘Forget this’!”

    Any other thoughts? I’ll link to the videos in a response to my comment.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Keep in mind these aren’t real interviews, and they’re definitely not intended as good examples of interviewing on either side of the table. Questions are almost certainly being provided/pushed by the people producing the show. It’s entertainment, not genuine job searching examples. (Which is good because they’re uniformly awful examples.)

      2. Beth Anne*

        I haven’t watched but based on what you described it sounds like they picked the best people to make for entertaining reality TV. I bet the clothes were also provided to them by the show as well.

        1. AnonAndOn*

          I think they were wearing their own clothes. The sweaty guy’s clothes looked too tight on him though.

          Another woman (a Love Cork Screw candidate) had burgundy hair, burgundy eyebrows, and loud gold eye shadow. Her hair and brows matched a sweater she wore over a black top with a lacy peephole decoration on top. As she waited for her interview she appeared to be taking selfies.

    3. NewBoss2016*

      I watched it, and was screaming inside THESE PEOPLE ALL NEED TO READ AAM. It was pretty entertaining, so I’ll keep watching it. I was wondering how I would have kept it together as a canidate when the Xendoo guy leaned back in his chair and did a back-flop on the floor.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        They definitely do need to visit this site.

        They showed a shot of the candidate laughing after the Xendoo guy fell out of his chair, but I think that was a case of reality TV editing where a random reaction shot is thrown in out of context.

    4. AshK434*

      OMG I totally agree with you about everything. Xendoo asked really dumb questions. For some reason the question about closet organization really irked me. I have a really messy closet, but I’m super organized and detail-oriented at work. Those two things have no correlation for me.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        That’s what bugged me too about that question. It has nothing to do with how someone performs at work.

    5. JamieS*

      I hadn’t seen it but watched both episodes after seeing your post. Suffice to say I had to pause it a few times because it was too painful to watch. I know it’s a reality show and probably mostly scripted but there were moments I legitimately felt bad for the “candidates” and the train wreck they were just making even worse. When that Xendoo candidate Robin said she wouldn’t go back to working in a CPA form while interviewing for a job at a CPA form…OMG! There were some doozies but hands down she was the worse IMO.

        1. JamieS*

          Yeah I think it could have been salvageable if she’d remembered they were a CPA firm and didn’t make such a fall on your sword statement. For instance instead of “I’d never work for a CPA firm” maybe say something like “I wouldn’t want to work for a traditional CPA firm which is what attracted me to Xendoo because you guys (insert how Xendoo is different)”.

          Course that’d require remembering they’re a CPA firm before they remind you and the statement needs to be true so it doesn’t sound like you’re blowing smoke even if you are.

          As for Xendoo’s questions they weren’t the best but I didn’t think they were too terrible since I could see the purpose of the question as opposed to them just asking those questions for the heck of it. I’m torn on the financial statement. I agree it puts people on the spot so it’s harder than if they had to find mistakes by themselves. However I think part of that exercise was also to find how the candidates think so it makes sense for them to be there to hear the candidates’ process. Also if it’s commonplace for employees to be in front of clients it’d make sense to want candidates who can talk intelligently about a financial statement in front of others.

    6. AnonAndOn*

      Another thing that bugged me was how Xendoo wanted their candidates to find a discrepancy in the mock financial document right in front of them. Candidates are usually given a chance to sit and do those things privately. In the epilogue at the end of the episode, they said that the candidate they picked became part of their “family.” My lord.

      I liked Love Cork Screw’s interviewing better. I felt that the mock wine presentation one was a good one because the candidate who was picked would likely have to set up a booth at a shop or other public event and engage with customers providing them samples.

      And thinking of JamieS’s comment about how one Xendoo candidate said she didn’t want to work for a CPA firm again though Xendoo was one, I’m surprised that no non-drinkers or non-wine lovers applied to that job. Imagine “I don’t drink” or “I don’t like wine” for a job that’s all about wine. That wouldn’t have gone over too well either.

  30. DuckDuckGoose*

    I’ve been combing the archives and can’t find anything relevant for my problem/not problem.

    I recently accepted a position (yay!) at a great employer. When I applied, I applied to two positions in the same overall department but in two sort of different sub-departments. I have experience and interest in both jobs.

    I assumed I wasn’t selected to interview for the second position since I hadn’t heard from them in the same timeframe as the first position. Well, lo and behold the second one reached out to me for an interview. I said yes just to buy some time to think about it.

    I haven’t started the other position yet and I feel awful. I think I’d like both positions with the second one being a little bit more in line with my goals. I know an interview is not an offer, but I’m a worrier and want to think this through.

    If I were to get an offer on this second position, how terrible would it be to take it? If they were different employers, I know I’d basically torch the bridge to the first company if I turned around and said “sorry, I went with someone else” after accepting. But since they’re the same place…?

    My pro/con list is pretty difficult since a lot of the benefits are the same (healthcare plans, culture, etc.). It really just comes down to job tasks with the first job seeming to be slightly more flexible in hours (once I’m up to speed, I can make my own schedule while the second position relies a little more on being there at specific times). What is the ethical thing to do? And, even if it’s not ethical, what would you do?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I wouldn’t even go to the interview for the second position. They’re in the same department; they’re going to know you’ve already accepted the other job. There is no way for you to look good in this scenario.

      It would be one thing if you were reneging a position in a whole separate organization, but you would be reneging on a position in the same department, probably in the same physical workspace. If I were the employer, I would pull the original offer and remove you from the candidate pool from the second position.

      1. Infinity Anon*

        I agree. I think it is worse because they are the same organization. If it gets back to the department that offered you the job they will think you are sill looking for something better and not committed to the role (and it sounds like they would be right). Don’t go to the interview. If you had been offered the position but not yet accepted it, maybe there would be some wiggle room, but definitely not after accepting the offer. That is dealing with them in bad faith.

      2. DuckDuckGoose*

        Thank you, I’m going to contact the interviewer and withdraw from the position. My hope is that after several years, I could move to another position within the organization if I want to.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      It’s weird to me that their hiring processes aren’t coordinated enough to see that they’re considering you as an applicant for a role when they just hired you into another role! Maybe what I would do is reach out to the manager or recruiter for the second position and ask if they are aware that you had just accepted another role within the company. Maybe it’s possible that they are fully aware of this and it would be culturally fine within the company for you to do this? It seems unlikely, but I think it’s possible! If they weren’t aware, I would probably withdraw from consideration from the second role. Even though it’s a better fit, it would just be too much of a dark shadow over my reputation I think.

      1. DuckDuckGoose*

        That’s what I thought was odd too…I assumed they knew I was interviewing for the first position since they never contacted me about the position, but they were posted at the same time. I am going to contact the interviewer and explain that I accepted the other position but would look forward to working with their department in the future.

    3. CAA*

      I think you have to tell the interviewers for the second position that you have already interviewed with and received an offer from the other team. If it’s true, then you can say that this second position fits much better with your skill set and interests and you would be interested in working with them, but then you leave it up to them as to whether they want to negotiate with their colleagues to poach you onto their team.

      1. DuckDuckGoose*

        Thanks! I do think I’m going to contact the interviewer and explain that I already accepted the first position but that I look forward to working with their subdepartment in the future. If they press for the interview or explain that it wouldn’t be a big deal to take their offer (which I doubt) then I’ll consider it further but it seems like it could just all blow up in my face if I pursue it.

    4. Jules the Third*

      You accepted the position. It’s not smart to keep ‘dating around’ just in case. You could very easily lose both positions.

      If you’d said the second one was much better than then first, then it might be worth the risk, but with both of them being similarly interesting to you, stick with the one you have. Worst case, in two years, you can ask about swapping with the person in the second position so that the two of you can get cross-training. My company rotates people through similar positions regularly.

      1. DuckDuckGoose*

        That makes sense, especially being within the same overarching department and with me having skills in both, I do think crosstraining or moving into the other subdepartment at some point in the future would be feasible.

        Thank you!

    5. AshK434*

      Aren’t you worried about your new manager finding out you scheduled an interview for the second job? This doesn’t seem like a smart move and I have a feeling accepting the interview will result in you losing your initial offer. Also even if your scenario pans out and you do accept the second job, don’t you think it would be awkward to work in close proximity to the department you bailed on? (I’m assuming this is a relatively small department and there are some areas of overlap; apologies if this is not the case).

      1. DuckDuckGoose*

        Definitely. I initially agreed to the interview to buy myself some time to think it out. After posting about it here and seeing that everyone’s response was “Nooooo, this will not work/look good for you” I contacted the interviewer and explained that I accepted another position at the university and needed to withdraw from their search. I hope that is enough?

        I like both jobs, I have skills in both. I think at a smaller university/employer these two jobs might be more intertwined, but since it’s so large, there are discrete positions. I’m hoping that in 5+ years, I’ll be able to move around to other positions within the overarching department.

  31. Fake old Converse shoes*

    I can’t deal with the people in this office anymore. They do absolutely nothing but loud off-key Disney karaoke and dancing all day. I’ve requested to work from other location (preferably my company premises) to my boss, but he can’t do anything cause the client hates WFH. Last week they made so much noise that I accidentally put a nasty bug in my code and my boss and I lost an entire work day trying to find it. And asking politely doesn’t work, I’ve herd them calling me a “party pooper” behind my back. I just want this project to end ASAP before I turn into a snappy passive aggressive monster that irradiates bad vibes and insults everyone.

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      My mind is blown. How can anyone work in that environment! There is a time and place for Disney karaoke – it’s at the bar after hours. I am so sorry! Can you put on noise cancelling headphones just to get by? Is anyone else annoyed by this? I don’t imagine this is an environment conducive to work!

    3. Iris Eyes*

      But they aren’t at a party….so there’s no party to poop on or it is 100% appropriate to poop on it.

      Maybe noise cancelling headphones? Maybe really bright orange giant ones?

    4. Fake old Converse shoes*

      I had a look at noise cancelling heaphones, but they are painfully expensive. I know this is not a party, but my best guess is they have little to no work assigned, and considering the company is SO anti WFH they’re forced to stay the whole day doing nothing… well, off-key Disney karaoke. It’s no my problem, but it’s seriously harming my productivity. And even though I have my boss on my side, he can do nothing.

      1. Windchime*

        During a fit of pique caused by chatting and laughing co-workers, I drove to Best Buy at lunch and bought a $300 pair of Bose noise canceling headphones. I could not stand the noise any longer. 6 1/2 years later, they are still great and still worth every penny. I use then with music or a free white-noise app on my phone. They even drown out Dave, the guy at work who talks all day long in a Really! Insistent! Voice! and is the expert on everything.

        Seriously, if there is any way you can afford it, do it. You won’t regret it.

        1. callietwo...*

          +++ couldn’t agree more… these have blown any other headphones right out of the water as far as blocking noise. (I work in cubicle hell and these have saved my sanity)

      2. copy run start*

        If you can stand the in-ear type, I recently picked up a $20 pair of Anker bluetooth ear buds that actually block quite a bit of noise. They seal really well against your inner ear (which means you don’t have to turn the volume up either). I bought them to drown out my own noisy set of coworkers and I’m quite satisfied.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        I got my husband a set from Panasonic last year that were about 30 dollars and they work very well. I also have a cheap in ear set with flexible covers that aren’t really sold as noise canceling but work really well for that purpose. I’d also look at places like Ross or TJ Maxx if you have them. I’ve found lots of surprisingly good headphones there over the years.

      4. Anna Held*

        Expense the headphones. When questioned, tell them exactly why you need the headphones.

        Seriously, document this, including recording if you can. This is insane. Where’s their boss?

    5. A Non E. Mouse*

      They do absolutely nothing but loud off-key Disney karaoke and dancing all day.

      Are they actual children?

      Look, I’ve often felt like busting out with A WHOLE NEW WOOOOOOOORLD at work, but I’m an adult so don’t.

      {Unless your place is hiring?}

      1. Fake old Converse shoes*

        All this happens at a client’s office. Their behavior is more close to teens than children, immature and cliquish. I wonder if I’m going to get some kind of worst-at-something prize as I did at high school, like “worst dressed”, “uncool”, “sulky face”, you get the idea.

    6. Anon anon anon*

      Wow. I don’t understand people. Do they appreciate having jobs? Have they ever had to struggle to pay their bills? Or lost a job unexpectedly? Do they appreciate getting to be in an office instead of doing difficult manual labor? It doesn’t sound like it.

      1. Fake old Converse shoes*

        According to their constant bragging, most of them come from rich families. Once or twice I overheard someone mentioning “my chauffeur”. I wonder if there is someone among them that never used public transport. It wouldn’t be a surprise if some of them got there without even applying for it.

  32. SometimesALurker*

    Hi all, you may remember my “irresponsible interpreter who very obviously embellishes” predicament from several months ago. I’m happy to report that using some of the information and phrasing you folks suggested, I was able to convey to my boss, and through her to our contact in the other department (the one that contracts with this guy) just how serious the problem was. It hasn’t gone away entirely. This interpreter still gets called in for some events and I don’t really have a reason to trust that he’s reformed, he may just have stopped being so upfront and blatant about his embellishments, but they are more careful about using him for VIPs. I suspect they are also asking the bilingual Mandarin/English speakers present to keep an eye on him when he interprets. So, not a clean-cut happy ending, but I was able to make more change than I thought I would. Thank you all for your help!

  33. Should I stay or should I go?*

    TL;DR: What are the biggest factors for you that make an overall less than ideal job bearable?

    With the previous discussion about “dream jobs” I’ve been thinking a lot about my current position, which when I started I believed was a dream job.

    I’ve been at my job for about 2.25 years, with just about 2 years of that in M&A activity that was way above my pay grade. Things were finalized as of Nov 1, but now we’re going through the transition period after being acquired. The powers that be say that will take another 18-24 months. Part of me is ready to walk out the door, but there are good things here, too. I am so sick of the light chaos that goes with corporate changes, but I like my responsibilities well enough and my coworkers are awesome. The thought of another 2 years of transition makes me want to scream, but the thought of finding another job that has a great culture and benefits makes me nauseous. I’ve been poking around job postings and there are nice opportunities out there for me, but a lot of them would triple or quadruple my current highway-free 20 minute commute. I don’t know, I just feel really stuck right now.

    1. Mimmy*

      Biggest factors for me currently:

      -Decent supervisor
      -Positive feedback, some directly from students
      -Enough good co-workers

    2. Jadelyn*

      Mine would be: my manager and team; the commute and office location; pay; flexibility. If I have a good manager and a team I work well with; if I have a short commute and/or the office is in a convenient location; if I’m well-paid for what I’m doing; and if I have a decent amount of flexibility in *how* I do my work and a little flexibility in *when* (I don’t mind having set office hours, but I won’t put up with the “butt in seat” priority so many places seem to have), then I can put up with frustrations and transition periods.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      • Flexibility: I set my own hours.

      • Input: If I say “I think X won’t really work in this spot, for these reasons” does this concern go to someone who understands X, and can either say “Hmm, good point, we’ll change that” or “I get your concern, but for outside reason we’re going to do it anyhow”? Or does it go to someone who knows nothing whatsoever about X, other than that it says in some initial documentation “put an X here”?

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I find that feelings of being stuck tend to come and go. There are times when I really can’t stand my job and would leave in a heartbeat and most other times, I think, this is not such a bad job after all. I think I would stay. Other than the chaos of transition (that you say will last about two years), it sounds like you generally like your job. On the other hand, I might send out a resume or two to see whose interested and if you get called for an interview, I would go.

      1. Should I stay or should I go?*

        Yeah, I agree. I seem to have better days and worse days, but I think it ends up averaging out in the positive. Plus knowing that there is an eventual light at the end of the tunnel makes me feel a little better.

    5. Lora*

      Good boss, good colleagues. That’s it.

      Have had jobs where they were notoriously lavish with the perks: not just in house gym with classes, but free lunch served daily complete with veggie options, $600/plate dinners with clients, flexible hours, after-work beer fests with live music, one place even had summer concert series with food trucks and weekly free Italian Ice on the quad in summer. The reason they had to offer all that stuff was because the office politics were downright poisonous. It didn’t work, nobody stayed despite these efforts. They should have saved their money and fired the managers who made playing politics a higher priority than doing science, and hired people with a modicum of emotional intelligence and integrity.

      Miraculously, people want to work at places which aren’t chock-full of raging a-holes. We don’t put up with being told to lie on government applications for new drugs, cleaning up other people’s messes and jerks sabotaging our projects in exchange for a lemon slushee and a weekly barre class. I can buy my own beer, thanks.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, this. Though I’d add interesting work and somehow making the world better. I also have a salary range, but I wouldn’t pursue a pay bump over good manager/co-workers.

    6. Lumen*

      Pay. I can tolerate a lot if you pay me enough to cover my bills, let me live a decent life outside of work, and achieve my financial goals (like getting out of debt and saving for retirement). Frankly, I get a bit tired of all the focus that employers and employer-aimed articles place on other factors, while skipping merrily over this really fundamental one.

      However: the ability to work from home when necessary is huge for me. A boss who communicates, is available, and actually helps me do my job better is The Dream, but I actually have that right now and it makes a big difference.

      That said, it sounds like you’ve spent 24 out of 27 months in chaos, you’re about to spend another 18-24 months in chaos, and the thought of enduring that makes you want to scream. Are good coworkers and a short commute enough to balance out daily Wanting To Scream-ness? Could you find good coworkers elsewhere? Is it possible that a job will show up on one of your searches soon that isn’t an hour away? Is that commute going to make you want to scream every day?

      Keep looking/keep your eyes open for other opportunities. It sounds like this isn’t working for you, but something else might.

    7. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

      I’m struggling with this right now. Right now I work less than 5 miles from my home. The hours are flexible (I don’t have to worry about getting off for dr appointments or meetings or vacation and I can work from home if I want to). But the pay is only $13/hour with no benefits or PTO.

      If I go to a better paying job I’d have to commute at least an hour if not more and I’d probably have a super strict 8-5 and it would be annoying to get time off for appts and stuff. I’m just not sure how much extra I’d need to make in terms of pay and benefit for it to be worth my time and gas for the long commute. So I stay here for now.

      I’m actually working on getting more freelance work on the side to make up for it. I think that is going to be a better alternative than getting a new job.

      1. Specialk9*

        oh my gosh, no benefits and low pay makes that a no go! The first time I almost died from an unexpected medical thing was in my 20s. Going bankrupt for medical bills haunts you for 7 years and can block you from getting good jobs.

  34. Language Student*

    Do you get worn down after big projects? How do you keep momentum up with multiple pieces of important work in a short space of time?

    I just submitted an assignment on Tuesday, and I’m struggling to keep momentum up with my next one, on Monday. I don’t have many assignments like this – 10 throughout the academic year – and I find myself shutting off mentally quite quickly. How do you get back into things?

    1. Jules the Third*

      Short, intense, time-limited break with a couple of easy tasks to get me back into the routine: eg, I will wrap up Tuesday by writing up the project plan of for the next assignment (or 3 or 4), then take Wednesday off and not think about school at all, then start back Thu morning with a couple of easy things from the list.

      Project planning is the single most useful thing you can do for yourself. It gives you a nice clear framework for getting back into assignments, steps of varying difficulty so that you can decide what you feel up to tackling, timeframes so that you actually know exactly when you have to stop procrastinating in order to get the project done. Project Management was the best class I ever took, both for school and career.

      1. Language Student*

        Thank you so much! This is incredibly helpful. I like starting back with easy things, I’ll try that right now. I’ll look into project management more in my free time, too – it’s on a post-it for now so I can get back to work. :)

    2. Anon!*

      You definitely need downtime. I like what Jules the Third said, and I’m currently reading and loving Deep Work by Cal Newport and that feels relevant to your question, too. It’s common sense but it was reassuring to hear about the role downtime plays in his ability to tackle intense periods of work.

    3. A Non E. Mouse*

      I will sometimes take a day or two to knock out low-level tasks – clean out my files, go through email and purge/find any hidden gems/mark off easy 2-minute asks from people, take the time to actually go to lunch with coworkers, that kind of thing.

      It’s all work that needs to be done, and it allows a kind of reset in my mind. Important Thing Done > Day of Clean Up > Work on Next Important Thing.

  35. Alex*

    Has anyone ever done an internship or significant cross training while working full time, either at your own organization or somewhere else? I would be interested to hear your experiences, particularly if it eventually led to a career pivot or advancement, and how your employer responded to it. Thanks.

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Yes, several years ago. Fortunately I worked at a university so it was far less complicated. My work week was compressed into 4 days with the 5th day used for my internship. My full time courseload was either through night school or online with one course in the daytime.

      I had no social life whatsoever. Every spare moment was either studying/homework or prep work for my internship. Fortunately I’m single and not much of a social creature so that wasn’t a huge sacrifice. In the end I decided to quit the internship due to a mix of a supervisor from purgatory and deciding that I was better off in my existing field than the planned new one.

    2. Melpo*

      I haven’t but my wife recently completed her internship of supervised counseling hours (to become a therapist) while working full time at a high school. Her employer at the school was accommodating but she basically worked nonstop. Our schools have classes all day MTRF and half days Wednesday and Saturday for athletics. So my wife worked school days at her school job and afternoons W and S and evenings MTRF and some Sundays at her internship.

      Now that she is finished and working full time as a therapist, I think it worked but it was not easy. Our children spent a lot of time with babysitters that year, since I also work full time at a boarding school.

  36. Lizcat Editor*

    I’m a freelance editor. The first 70 pages out of a 119 page manuscript involved tedious, but reasonable edits. The last 59 pages, however, require at least triple the amount of work. It reads like a haphazard brainstorm. (No punctuation, single quotes where double quotes should be, present instead of past tense.
    I emailed the author to ask if she sent the wrong file and told her the problems. She asked me to just edit it as if it were any other work. Normally, I would have charged a much higher rate for this level of editing. But she sends me multiple manuscripts a week and many need far less work than average. So, I decided to let it go. What would you all do in my position?

    1. selina kyle*

      If it’s just a one-off of needing the extra work, then yeah I agree on not charging more. If it happens again, maybe approach her with it.

    2. oranges & lemons*

      I think I would let it go this time, but next time I would spot check throughout the MS to make sure it doesn’t have the same issue.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would say, “Okay, I can do this for this time, because you send me so much work. However in the future my rate for this level of editing is $x. And I may need advanced notice so I can allot the time for it.”

  37. Not a Real Giraffe*

    How do you all handle telling coworkers and people you tangentially work with that you are leaving your job?

    Today is my last day at my current job and I gave notice three weeks ago. Because I don’t routinely see all the people that I work with, I haven’t been able to personally tell everyone that I am leaving. I’ve told people as I’ve seen them or when my departure would impact our work, but I work with a number of C-Suite executives, and admittedly I felt very awkward about going to their executive floor to tell them one-by-one. I sorta assumed that my boss would tell most people (and that one or two gossips would spread it around). Yesterday, I sent out my farewell email and the number of responses along the lines of, “I had no idea you were leaving!” really surprised me.

    (I will say it brightened my day for the CEO to call me directly in response to the news – it’s nice when the top dogs recognize us lowly worker bees!)

    1. Squeeble*

      I sent an email to a bunch of people, all BCCd, when I left my last job. It was a similar situation where I wouldn’t normally see them face-to-face that often but I knew they would want to know.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      When I left OldJob, I sent a mass email to my colleagues. Basically telling them that after X amount of years, the time had come for me to move on to other endeavors. I told them how nice it was to work with them and I invited them to keep in touch and that was it.

  38. Kiki*

    This is not really a question, just celebrating! I got out of the toxic job that was making me miserable and have been in my new job for almost a month now. I totally forgot how it felt to not feel sick every morning because I knew I had to go into work. I’m doing work I love, my coworkers are great, and I feel good about my organization’s mission and structure. I was turning into a person I didn’t really know anymore, and I’m so grateful that I had the resources and family support to get out and find a job I love.

  39. Stelmselms*

    How about some happy stories today. Was there a time where your boss, a co-worker or even yourself advocated for you at work. What happened? How did it all turn out?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      In my current job, I was actually hired at a lower level position, but picked up a bunch of extra duties and learned a lot of new things pretty quickly, simply because it was a new department (I was the second hire), and we had a lot of things that needed to be done. At my 6 month review, my boss surprised me with a promotion that I didn’t even ask for – he said since I was doing the work of an ETL developer (I was hired as a business analyst), then I should get paid for it! I was so shocked that I actually had a boss that was rewarding me for my hard work (and he even took away some of the extra duties once we were able to off-load them). To even get a small raise or rework my work load at past jobs was like pulling teeth. Obviously I am quite happy here and hope this boss sticks around for a long time. :)

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I was wondering whether to post this so thanks for giving me an excuse! I have narcolepsy which I’ve mentioned occasionally on here. Work already knew but it’s largely under control with medication and the acommodations I’ve needed have more been things like “I can’t stand up for long periods as I get tired”.

      Lately I’ve had some symptoms worsen for reasons I don’t want to get into (and don’t need advice on) and I started to get really worried and stressed that I might be late for work. They’ll fire you, my anxiety brain said (it lies). What can I say, I’ve had a lifetime of people saying things like “being tired isn’t an illness”.

      I figured it would be better to say something now. I basically feel like framing the email my manager sent me. It says that if I start being late to work then we will have a conversation… about whether I need an adjustment to my hours or my start time. And that grandboss is happy with this too.

      I actually cried in relief. I mean I knew they’d be fine as they are awesome, but actually seeing it in writing has been major.

    3. FormerOP*

      I’ve used language from AAM two deal with two tricky interpersonal situations this week, and it worked! I feel like everyone can continue working together, air is clear and we can focus on work instead of getting annoyed with each other!

    4. Purple snowdrop*

      My line manager and team manager have been SUPER AWESOME about supporting me while I’ve been planning to leave/leaving Abusive Ex.

      I’ve had an absolute ton of sick leave this year and I think my line manager has protected me from Meetings about it because of the circumstances.

      I didn’t really get on with Line Manager at first. I think she’s bloody awesome now and would go a long way out of my way to help her.

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Yes. When I told my boss I wanted to leave the department because I was looking for more challenges, he actually created a position for me in our department that would provide me with said challenges. Best job I ever had. and I loved the folks I worked with.

    6. Jadelyn*

      My manager once hung up on my grandboss because he was having a borderline temper tantrum and trying to throw me under the bus even though I had done exactly what he asked me to do. He called me up and needed a compiled PDF of a bunch of resumes RIGHT NOW LITERALLY RIGHT THIS SECOND OMG, DON’T WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE JUST THROW IT TOGETHER AND SEND IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. So I put together the bundle, changed the header of the cover page to reflect that it was a new bundle, but I didn’t take the extra 5-10 minutes to go through and list all the new names that were included in the document with details about their source and contents for each person. And when I emailed it to him, I specifically said “I didn’t take the time to update the names section on the cover sheet because you said you needed this right away – let me know if you want me to add that and send you a new version with all the names, but this has all the core content you needed.”

      Well, about 30 seconds after I hit send, he called my manager up and started yelling about how he asked me for a thing and I sent him the wrong thing, because he opened the PDF, glanced at the cover page, somehow missed the updated header but saw that the names list was unchanged, and flipped out assuming I had just sent him the old bundle. Like, “It was a simple request, why doesn’t anyone ever do what I ask them to do around here, blah blah.” It was on speakerphone and my desk was all of 10 feet away from my manager’s, so I got up and went over and clarified to him that what I’d sent him had everything he needed, just not a fully updated cover sheet, but he was still yelling at us both, honestly not even listening to me.

      So my manager said something to the effect of “[Jadelyn] did what you asked. You wanted this document compiled right away, and you specifically emphasized speed over perfection, so she put all the actual content in but she only edited the cover page just enough to work with what you wanted so that she could get the content to you faster instead of making you wait. You’re the one who didn’t bother to read the header or to scroll down even one page and realize that you had in your hands the exact document you wanted. That’s not her fault, and it’s not my fault. You have what you need. If you want to go over more specific instructions for future incidents where speed is of the essence and clarify what you consider “essential” that can’t be sacrificed for the sake of speed, then we can do that once you’ve calmed down.” And she hung up on him.

      I gave her a horrified look, but she’s worked with my grandboss for almost a decade at two different companies, so she just laughed and said “I’m not going to get in trouble for that. He needs a little time to calm down before he’ll be able to be reasonable, and once he’s calmer he’ll actually be grateful I cut him off before he could say anything he’d wind up really regretting. But I was not going to sit there and let him scream at you when you already gave him what he asked for. If he really still needs to yell about it later, he can yell at me.”

      I’d never had a manager stand up for me like that before.

    7. Cassandra*

      A piece I wrote for trade press was not looked upon favorably by a C-level exec.

      When I told my boss what was brewing, she said, “Well, we didn’t hire you to be QUIET.” I knew then that she had my back and pretty much always would.

      (And I was right, C-level exec was flame-out levels of wrong!)

  40. SpiderLadyCEO*

    I don’t have to really worry about this for a while, but it’s stressing me all the same: I moved for work (work paid for the move) and while I love the job I hate the city. The job ends Nov. 2018, and while there is a possibility work will keep me on and move me (there’s no chance they will keep me in current location) I will need to be looking for other jobs.

    HOWEVER, the point at which I would need to be actively applying and interviewing is also the point at which current job is really going to jump into high gear (August – Nov. 2018).

    How would you guys recommend going about the job hunting/interviewing process during this time? Especially when I don’t even want to stay in the state?

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Obviously this is field-dependent, but maybe you could start looking earlier for jobs that might have a later start date. In my years of combing the job ads I’ve seen some jobs that want start dates several months out, so maybe you could at least start the process in July or even June.

      If your job allows you to WFH at all and there aren’t any confidentiality/schedule concerns, then you could try working from “home” at a hotel if you have a job interview in a location you want to move to. (Also, trying to schedule job interviews for Friday or Monday might be good if you have to do in-person interviews.)

      1. SpiderLadyCEO*

        I do work from home, but job requires me to travel around and can be unpredictable. As such, if I schedule something on Wednesday, I might have to drop everything at a dime to do that. :/

        I do like the idea of searching earlier though! I can just include my end date on the letter, and if that doesn’t work for them at least we will be on the same page.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

          I think this sounds like a totally reasonable thing to explain in a cover letter. You’re currently on a fixed term contract and you’re hoping to start a new position around X date. You probably don’t want to work for anyone who would be put off by that.

  41. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    I’m trying to figure out the balance of working in HR and maintaining friendships with people outside of work. Specifically, a friend I’ve known since high school who was hired at my company a few months after I was. I think we do a great job of maintaining good boundaries at work – we work in separate buildings so we hardly see each other, have only gone to lunch once or twice, and I recuse myself from being involved in any performance or salary conversations that would involve her.

    My issue is now that it’s the holiday season there are a lot of holiday parties coming up that she will host/be in attendance… and I’m not sure how appropriate it is for me to be at those parties anymore. I think if it were a milder group of people I would have fewer problems, but they can party pretty hard and there are always drinking games involved. I’m not worried about getting out of control and spilling work secrets, more concerned about the optics from a work standpoint. Any thoughts?

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. It sounds like your social circles overlap a lot, and avoiding parties she would be at would make things weird for everyone, and be difficult for you. It sounds like you are doing the best you can!

    2. NaoNao*

      Maybe make an appearance and then bow out early before the die-hard’s get into the drinking games? Circulate with your one drink or mocktail, say hi, do the gift exchange or main activity (food, singing, whatever) then when things start to get crazy, quietly excuse yourself with “an early day” the next day or a dog you’re dog sitting for…or just smile and know that the group’s general intoxication will likely make it so they can’t recall why you left or when!

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      I would go and have fun. You’ve been perfectly transparent and recused yourself where appropriate. I would put it on your boss’s radar just for transparency’s sake, but in a matter of fact way instead of an asking for permission way.

    4. A.N.O.N.*

      I think the fact that you’re this conscientious about it and eager to do the right thing demonstrates in itself that you’ll be able to handle going to the party without crossing boundaries.

  42. Anonwifetoday*

    Looking for some encouraging feedback and interviewing advice to pass on to Spouse, who was terminated Thursday, after working for over a decade at a nonprofit. He was doing part-time accounting in the org’s business office (5 person staff), and his first three bosses got along very well with him.

    Boss #4 number started a little over year ago, and she also hired 2 new full timers. Spouse was shifted to a strict 20 hours a week, rather than the past more relaxed 24-28, and this was causing tension with both boss and coworkers as they brought him more to do. After an argument with a colleague Tuesday about not being able to finish certain assignments, he was asked to go home and take a few days off.

    Yesterday he received a phone call from Boss and also termination letter in the mail, along with severance agreement to be signed. It refers to one verbal warning about his arguments with colleagues, and past discussions about arguments and raised voices but nothing regarding the issues with not being able to complete his work in 20 hours. There was never a written warning and no PIP was offered, and manager never met regularly with him. They are offering 8 weeks severance, and agreement says he is resigning.

    He is feeling awful, definitely owning up to his part in the situation, and knows that he’ll have to be extra careful with his temper in the future. (He also struggles with depression.) I’m trying to reassure him that a lot of this is documentation, he can do better in his next job, and he has talents and skills and past references that are good. It would have been so much better if they could have just used the “its no longer a good fit” excuse, but that’s not happening. He is worried how he will address this in interviews. Any helpful advice out there? (I’ve looked at Alison’s posts on this). Thanks so much!
    (I comment from time to time, but am going totally anon today. )

    1. LCL*

      I’m going to go really negative for this, but not at your husband. Nothing wrong with him.
      His former employer is a glassbowl. They cut his hours, when he wasn’t working full time in the first place, then fired him because he couldn’t get the same amount of work done with less time. Eff them. Sincerely. This is the kind of crap that white collar workers have been expected to put up with in the last couple decades. It’s not right.

      They way to address this in an interview is, ‘after restructuring they cut my hours to 20 hours/week, and I want full time work.’

      1. Jules the Third*

        +1 to this
        The best thing is that this explains any less-than-enthusiastic recommendations from Boss #4. But go back to bosses 1 – 3 for recommendations if possible.

      2. WITney Houston*

        Agree – this explanation is perfect.

        Also, encourage him to be confident when he interviews! I think a big reason it is easier to get a job when you have a job is the security of your current role helps you to feel confident when interviewing and you come off much better to potential employers. Good luck to him!

      3. Trout 'Waver*

        Exactly this.

        They asked him to do more work in fewer hours for less money. Screw them. Your husband shouldn’t feel ashamed or guilty or anything. Also, you may want to have a quick check with an employment attorney about the severance agreement before signing it. You husband may have more options on the table than he realizes.

        Also, if your husband is feeling bad about it and suffers from depression, that can lead to rumination which makes the depression flare up in some cases. I’m speaking from personal experience here; it may not apply to your husband. But if that is the case, a check-in with a therapist might help him shake those feelings.

        1. Beatrice*

          +1 about talking with the employment lawyer about the severance agreement. Also, he obviously didn’t resign and might be eligible for unemployment if he doesn’t sign something saying he did, so factor in the financial impact of 8 weeks’ severance pay vs. the amount you’d get in unemployment for the period you guess he might be out of work, and make sure he’s not signing anything that will be a disadvantage to him.

        2. Anonwife*

          Thanks so much for this – he is already checking in with a therapist. But good to hear it from someone else.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Boss #4 is the one who really needs therapy. It’s not logical to expect greater than 20 hours worth of work to be done inside of 20 hours. That is not even logical. So instead of just telling your hubby that his services were no longer needed she turn the work place into a hot mess. Not much managerial talent going on there.

        3. Specialk9*

          Agree with all of the above. But the message isn’t “he did nothing wrong”, it’s “yeah good lesson learned on not yelling at work cuz you can get fired, but don’t get too hung up on this because you were being set up to either be exploited or fail and that is not a company you want to work for.”

    2. Kathenus*

      Since he’s worked there so long and if he signs the severance it specifies a resignation, he may not need to address the situation specifically up front (say in his cover letters). But having had experiences where jobs change significantly when a boss changes, if it does come up in an interview something along the lines of “I really enjoyed my 10 years of working for xx nonprofit and am proud of my contributions to the organization. After a recent change of leadership, I found that my philosophy was no longer as aligned with that of the organization, and am excited about xx new position where I feel I can be an asset to the mission”. Tweak the general meaning however works best, but I’ve been in situations like this and addressed it in a similar fashion, and found it worked well. Best of luck to your husband.

    3. Anonwife*

      All these replies are much appreciated! Thanks for the comments and suggestions- my husband has appreciated reading them as well.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      For the future: I call this one being set up to fail. I have had it done to me and I have watched it done to other people. The general idea is the employee is assigned a goal that is not humanly possible. The employee, being the person they are thinks, “oh, if I just work a little harder then I will get this.” Sometimes the employee does and what happens next is they get more work to do. And yes, tempers fly. Many times when people are losing their temper it is because the situation is not even logical.

      Punchline: We can’t reason with UNreasonable people.

      The only solution I have found is early detection. This is where a person realizes or is cued in by other people, that they are on a slippery slope. There is no pleasing this boss. Start the job search or if possible just plain leave. Remind the husband that now that he is gone she is targeting someone else in a similar manner.

      What I started doing was paying closer attention to my level of agitation. If I felt my temper sliding out of control, I would stop and say, what is the big picture here? And that is when I would notice an unreasonable person with unreasonable demands.

      I am sorry this happened to him and to you. I wish you guys the best going forward.

  43. Professional Shopper*

    I need help figuring out how to ask for a raise, because I either need one or I have to find a new job (and I really like my current company).

    I took on a bunch of extra duties when they fired a senior manager just under two years ago, and I got a small (5%) raise at the time. But they hired a new person take the senior manager’s job, and he has not taken on any of the duties I assumed (about 30% of the job). He makes more than double what I do.

    At the time, my boss & I were discussing promoting me to a larger role, with “a significant raise” (her words), so I didn’t negotiate further on the new job duties since I had a larger promotion lined up. I haven’t received any of the training for this role, but half the management team refers to me as the future “new fancy job title”. I’ve been taking on new additional duties as often as I can, but until we do a system conversion I have some time sucking tasks that prevent me from jumping into the new role. The last time I spoke with my boss about this new role was 2 months ago, and all I said was, “We need to discuss that before year end.”

    It’s almost year end and I need to ask about it. My manager is kind of a mile-high type–as long as I keep my reporting units in shape she pretty much leaves me alone. But I know she needs the help, and I need the money (I’d get 10k just going elsewhere with my current job, and $20-30k more if I found something equivalent to the promised promotion). I just really don’t want to look for a new job.

    TLD-My company promised I’d get a promotion with a significant raise in the future, it’s been almost two years. Should I tell my boss it needs to happen or I’m looking for a new job? Or do I find the job and negotiate from there?

    1. fposte*

      Ask first. Trying to get a counteroffer is a signal that you’ve got one foot out the door already, so they might consider it a waste of time find you something else. The negotiation also doesn’t have to include the information, at least not at first, that you’ll look for a new job otherwise, because that’s a bit ultimatum-y, which is usually counterproductive. It also doesn’t sound like this is a situation where you’ve been asking and they’ve been saying no–the only thing you’ve said is you’d like to talk about this later. So go in to talk about it, have a proposal in mind and see how theirs matches (and give yourself time to think about it if need be).

    2. Jules the Third*

      Go in, and
      1) Ask for a raise based on ‘here’s the work I do, here’s the industry standard pay for that work in this area, I’d like a raise to industry standard or industry standard +x%, because you know my track record, and I’m better than average’. Ask for a timeline on that decision.
      2) AS A SEPARATE ISSUE, though it can be the same conversation, after the raise has been discussed: Raise the promotion again. Ask for a timeline on *that* decision, and slide in, ‘my understanding of New Position is that the industry standard pay is x. ‘ They’ll understand that you’ll be looking for that pay if they come through with the promotion.
      3) Go write an email thanking them for the time talking about these things and recapping what was discussed, like, “I look forward to hearing your decisions by x date’.
      4) If they don’t come back with either the raise or promotion, start looking elsewhere.

      Using a new job to negotiate usually backfires. Ask at the current job, and if they don’t respond, don’t bluff, just move on.

      1. Professional Shopper*

        Thanks, I’m so worried about framing this conversation because I really love working here. I’d prefer to never mention job searching.

    3. Specialk9*

      Schedule a formal meeting with the decision-maker to discuss getting a raise. Provide a document that shows prior compensation & responsibilities, and new responsibilities & expected compensation. Any industry info on how much people in your position make is really important, if you can get it. You could skirt outright threatening to leave by saying “if you have to hire to fill these roles, you would have to pay X, and the job requires 6 months to spin up but 2 years for true expertise.” (Or whatever.)

  44. Drama Llama*

    Hiring an important manager role right now. I included in the advert to mention a specific reference number in the cover letter. Most applicants didn’t. Many didn’t even write a cover letter at all. Is it too harsh to put those applications in the no pile? This role requires careful attention to detail.

    1. AnonAndOn*

      I don’t think it’s harsh. You’re looking for someone who pays attention to detail and those people didn’t.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I don’t think it’s harsh. If they were actually interested in the role, they would have read the instructions. The ones who didn’t are the ones who are just applying to everything, which means they’re probably not a great fit anyway.

    3. Anon for This*

      I don’t think it’s too harsh. Last time I hired, we requested a cover letter and less than 25% of applicants submitted a cover letter. No cover letter meant that the person went into the no pile. Asking for a cover letter is a pretty standard and basic request. If a candidate can’t follow a basic request during the hiring phase, then I knew they would struggle in the actual job itself.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I think it’s fair. But I’d double check that their letter file didn’t have the number in the file name, or that it isn’t mentioned as an RE or tucked away in any other place it the cover letter.

    6. HeatherT*

      It’s not harsh, but I also would caution that you may overlook good candidates because of a rare and nitpicky request. Plus, it can be hard to know if everyone saw the exact job description that you posted. With the myriad sites that scrape job postings, there can be some discrepancies.

      I would still take a quick peek of the resume to see if anyone looks like a really good fit. Of course, if you have so many other good candidates resumes that you need to find a way to start quickly winnowing it down, this isn’t an egregious way to do it. :)

    7. aubrey christina*

      I’m having a similar issue – hiring for a very detail-oriented position and I can’t believe how many people are ignoring instructions, misspelling my name or the company’s name, addressing the cover letter to Sir/Madam or To Whom It May Concern when my name is right there in the job posting and if you google my name + company name the only results are my profile, etc.

      These people go straight to the no pile for me and I don’t that’s too harsh at all – for this particular role. Attention to detail is fundamental to this job and if they can’t do it sufficiently in a job application I can’t imagine they would in day-to-day work!

      1. Jules the Third*

        Is everyone really coming to you from that advert? If the advertisement is on the web, there may be people seeing it in other places, and seeing less than / different than what you put out there.

    9. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Not too harsh, but don’t reject them (as in don’t send them a rejection) until after you’ve gone through the applications that did include the reference number to make sure you’re happy with the pool of applicants. If the candidate pool is weak, you might want to interview a few of the stronger candidates who didn’t include the reference number.

      A thought: are you sure that all the places the job was posted included the reference number and that it didn’t somehow get accidentally deleted from one website?

  45. Mimmy*

    Short-term vs. long-term career plans

    TL;DR – My ideal long-term goal is in a very niche subject area. I have other interests that I know I can pursue, but can’t let go of trying to realize this near-impossible goal.

    I’ve been working as an instructor with blind & visually impaired adults since March. I don’t love the job, but I’m at least now at a point where I am tolerating it and I know that I’m having an impact on the students. However, it is not what I want to do long-term and I find myself constantly asking myself what direction to take next.

    Here’s the problem: What I am ultimately interested in is in a very niche area. Specifically, I’m interested in accessibility for people with disabilities. Not just physical accessibility, but also programmatic accessibility, e.g. appropriate communication (Braille, sign language), non-discriminatory program policies. Yet, I know that landing a role that addresses these issues is next to impossible unless I do a national job search, which is not something I’m in a position to do.

    In the short term, I can’t decide what my next steps should be. On the one hand, I know I’m making a big difference to my students (well, most of them, lol), but I’m not entirely comfortable with the interpersonal and creative demands. When I connect with students, it feels really awesome; yet, I often find myself feeling like I’m fumbling my way through a class (usually 1:1 or juggling 2 students at a time). I’ve always felt that, although I have the ability to establish a rapport under the right circumstances, I felt more alive in my previous volunteer council work, which involved reading grant proposals, discussing them with a group, and conducting site visits. Which tells me that I should consider pursuing something in grant writing, program development or evaluation. I know this is often tasks that administrators / managers do, which I’m not interested in pursuing.

    I also sometimes ask myself if I could still do direct client contact, but in a different capacity. I don’t want to deal with crises, but I can sometimes see myself discussing course and career options with a college or graduate student or advising faculty and staff on accessibility.

    I think I’m just having difficulty letting go of trying to come up with a long-term plan and ignoring short-term options. I’m already approaching my mid-40’s, so I think I need to stop thinking so far ahead and look at what’s in front of me now. But how?? So many ideas!!

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      What part of accessibility work are you interested in? Are you interested in advising businesses on how to be more accessible? Advocating for those with disabilities on a state, local or federal level? Providing tools directly to those with disabilities?
      Maybe there is a nonprofit near you that has a role you can step into. You could also look at your local gov and see what they have going on.
      Also, who do you work for now? Is there a way you could transition into a different, less hands on role with them?

      1. Mimmy*

        Right now, I work for a state-run facility where adults who are blind or visually impaired learn “blindness” skills–e.g. assistive technology, kitchen skills, mobility–and receive Vocational Rehab counseling. I’d definitely be open to a less hands-on role. The problem is that I’m essentially a perma-temp: I can only work so many hours in a given fiscal year and I’m part-time, so I don’t think I’m eligible for any transfers since I’m technically not a permanent state employee.

        As for what specifically I’m interested in: I’m still trying to define this. I’ve actually thought of being what’s called an ADA Coordinator. That might be more than I can handle, though, because I think most Coordinators work for local municipalities or large universities. I would also be open to advising nonprofits and/or professional education programs on becoming more accessible.

        1. Jules the Third*

          Looks like a classic case of ‘find someone who does what you do, and ask about their career path.’

          1. SpiderLadyCEO*

            Seconding! Maybe also look at a variety of job descriptions and see what skills you would want to build/expand upon, and start working on yours.

            It also might be good to talk to your boss, or someone else in the org. There might be something that you are eligible for you don’t know about. You could say, I’m trying to put a long term plan into play but of course I am happy where I am right now, so they don’t think you are looking to get out.

        2. Opalescent Tree Shark*

          At my institution, although we have an ADA coordinator, we are currently trying to make our building and our programs more inclusive beyond what our ADA coordinator can do. We have brought in people from the Institute for Human Centered Design as consultants to help us figure out how to do that. They would be a great place to reach out to. They do work all over the country so even if you wouldn’t want to work for them directly, I’m sure they could put you in touch with people doing that type of thing in your area.

    2. Specialk9*

      I don’t work on your field, but accessibility for disabilities does NOT sound niche, at all, to me – *especially* if you prefer the systematic stuff to 1-on-1 counseling (which is not where the money is, as a generalization). I’m wondering if you live in a small town? Because in a city, there are lots of jobs that require this input: construction and remodeling (“universal design” for a remodel design showcase, say, or Home Depot designers), big corps have consultants that advise on ADA and accessibility (usually HR and occupational safety/health roles encompass a lot more, but don’t go into your level of depth on the topic, that I’ve seen), website (“inclusive design”) etc.

      Looking up “accessibility consultant”, “ADA accessibility”, “inclusive design” and “universal design” on Indeed pulled up quite a few jobs, some telework.

      I’m also not sold on the idea of having a big life plan. I’ve found in life that what I trained for was not what I ended up doing, and none of my 5 year plans happened like I expected. Life took turns and things I didn’t even know about caught my eye, and I made connections that led in new directions. I think that’s true for a lot of curious people. If your life plan has you despairing, let up on the reins and have peace.

      1. Specialk9*

        And if you do live far from a big city, perhaps focus on website/UI inclusive design – that kind of company often has remote work built in to its culture.

      2. Mimmy*

        I love the “let up on the reins” analogy. My supervisor also described how her career didn’t go in the direction she’d planned. You’re right about life taking turns – mine has been one twisting, winding road!

        Thank you, and everyone else, for the suggestions :)

  46. oranges & lemons*

    So, I’m going to be selling at a craft fair for the first time ever in a couple of weeks! Any tips from more seasoned craft fair veterans? Pricing, booth layout, etc? I’m selling cards and I’m sharing the table with a friend, if that makes a difference.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Height. Get your display as vertical as you can – that’s what’s going to catch people’s eye as they walk by.
      Volume pricing – if your single card price is $6, also offer 2/$10 or 3/$15.
      Don’t undersell yourself!

    2. moss*

      Say hi to every one who stops. Be ready with anecdotes about how you designed your cards. Have good lighting in the booth especially if the event goes on into the evening. Do you already have a tent? Are you inside or outside? Do you have a Square account or other means of taking credit cards? Do you know how you will display your goods?

      Bring a comfortable chair and snacks and something to do (magazine, knitting etc) while you wait for people to stop. Make sure you have shopping bags for the customer to carry their purchases away in.

      My insta is in my handle and my email is on my instagram profile, feel free to email me if you have any other questions.

      Good luck! i do several shows a year because painting is my side hustle.

      1. Music*

        Please please please don’t say hi to everyone. I walk out of craft fairs feeling exhausted when people do this and I DEFINITELY do not enjoy browsing when someone is trying to aggressively be friendly. Just let people browse ugh.

        1. oranges & lemons*

          Yeah, when I’ve staffed tables before I usually only say hi to anyone who is actually stopping at the table. I tend to be pretty passive but my table-mate is a big ham so hopefully it evens out.

        2. Parenthetically*

          Aggressively friendly is exhausting. I love to see people working on their craft if possible as folks browse — I think for me it reduces the intensity of a cheery hello, because they’re “busy”!

        3. moss*

          Where did i say to say hi to everyone? I said everyone WHO STOPS. This is not being “aggressively friendly”. Say “Hello” and turn back to your crafting or magazine reading. I didn’t say launch into full court press salesman mode. Part of good customer service is greeting a person and then letting them browse.

    3. Kristinemc*

      Not a seller at craft fairs, but definitely an attendee – please please please make sure all your items are clearly priced. I will sometimes ask, but more likely will not.

      1. SpiderLadyCEO*

        This and credit cards are the two things that prevent me from buying craft sellers the most. If something is out of my budget, it’s so awkward to say “oh, no, thank you” once they have told you the price.
        And of course, I never, ever have cash, and if I do it’s a very limited amount, so squares are essential.

    4. NaoNao*

      Yes, I have a side gig selling vintage clothing and I’ve done a few fairs.

      Be ready to answer the same questions over and over with a friendly, upbeat tone. Did you make these, what did you use, where do you get your supplies—some questions might feel borderline rude but I always tell myself “This is the first time they’re asking this, to them it’s a novelty, to you it’s time 1000”

      Bring your own sheet or drape just in case

      You might want to bring your own lights—I went to a craft fair last night that was in a Botanical Gardens and some vendors got very dark areas with pinpoint spot lights!

      Have lots of business cards available. I have a stash now that I’ll go on etsy and favorite for gift giving time.

      Be ready to bargain, but know your bottom line.

      Be ready to tell the one-liner story of your business “Recycled from magazines!” or whatever makes them special.

    5. Teal Green*

      Get a Square account so you can take credit cards if you don’t already. Make sure you either have wi-fi access or a decent cell connection so Square will work. Some venues are in buildings with poor cell service, like gymnasiums or church basement halls.

      1. oranges & lemons*

        Yeah, my friend looked into this but it sounds like because we don’t have any kind of established business or track record, there is a good chance our funds would be withheld :\ We’re really just doing it for fun so it doesn’t seem worth the hassle.

        1. Red Reader*

          square doesn’t “withhold” funds and you don’t have to have an established business or anything.

        2. Mad Woman*

          you HAVE to get a square reader. They sell them at Target! Almost no one brings cash to these shows. I’m an attendee and a vendor. I think I’ve taken cash once in two years. No need to be established.

          1. Admin of sys*

            This. So many places take cards and so few people carry cash these days, you pretty much have to take credit to survive.

          2. oranges & lemons*

            Hmm, maybe I should look into this again. I don’t know anything except what my friend told me. But we are in Canada so the rules might be different?

        3. Amadeo*

          Paypal offers a similar service called ‘Paypal HERE’.

          I have Square for cards (I sell soap, custom decorated tees and artwork) simply because it’s a FANTASTIC point of sale in addition to a card processor. You don’t have to have a tax id to use it (though I have one now since I’m actively trying to grow this business), but you do have to link a bank account.

          I think Paypal requires at least an SSN because they’ll send out 1099s after a certain number of transactions/amount

        4. Al Lo*

          I’ve even used my Square for a garage sale and for things I’ve sold on Craigslist. I have a couple of accounts for different business/personal uses, and there’s nothing to be withheld once you get the bank connection set up.

    6. Girasol*

      I’m reading eagerly because I hope to do this next summer. Awesome replies! But one more thing I know I need to do: get a state sales tax license if the state requires it. Mine does, and their information specifically says that trade fair sellers must have one even if they only ever sell once.

    7. Parenthetically*

      PLEASE have a range of prices! We went a few weekends ago to a street fair and one of the artisans, a leatherworker, had an amazing range of products from $15 cord clip sets (like to keep your earbuds or charger cords organized) all the way up to gorgeous $$$ messenger bags, with lots of options under $50. Obviously with cards you’re covered on the lower end, but sets and packages on the higher end are great as well!

    8. Specialk9*

      Have levels – I used displays on clear acrylic shelves of varying heights, and a folding bookshelf (you could use wood planks on blocks).

      Have a bargain bin – people live sales, and hunting through can make them stop and see other items.

      Bring credit card capability (an iPhone dongle ideally). I always had some cash and change just in case (and if I didn’t have the right amount I’d give a break in the customer’s favor).

      Keep a paper log of sales! When you get home, put everything into a Google doc spreadsheet. You need this for paying taxes. (Also – make sure you’re paying taxes, local state and federal. Don’t overlook this!)

      Setup is usually folding table, tablecloth, folding chairs, dolly, plastic tub with lid for displays etc, food/drink (water bottle, coffee cup, food/snacks for you). Comfortable shoes, presentable clothes. I like the touch of a rustic paper bag with a glitzy custom adhesive sticker.

  47. Decima Dewey*

    I forgot to post this last week. Last week, a higherup sent out an email to new library branch managers (and acting library branch managers, like me). Attached was a 400 page doctoral dissertation on library management. Higherup suggested we “dip into it when we have time or interest.”

    We’ve been dealing with slowness issues on Outlook, related to unnecessary or obsolete emails not being deleted. We were urged to delete stuff we no longer needed (and permanently delete the deleted stuff).

    I hope the system uses the 2MB space I freed up wisely.

  48. Writing Frustration Fun*

    I found comments from someone significantly senior to me to be seriously offensive yesterday. I do a lot of writing and while this person’s quality of writing is terrible, they are in denial about it. I always go through and edit their writing, which they usually go along with.

    Yesterday, this person tried to tell me that they were writing for a “blue collar” audience. They kept going on and on about “I don’t know if you have ever worked with blue collar” people…. No… they were trying to write for children (think making an analogy of teapot manufacturing safety to children’s snack products). I was livid and could not hide my frustration. I cannot put my name on something like this but I butt heads with this person all the time. How can I find a compromise?

    1. Jules the Third*

      Allison just had this question – check out her answer and comments to “how should you decide which battles to pick at work” on Wednesday Nov 8. She’s pretty spot on.

      In the end, it’s the boss’s call. You are not the boss.
      Breathe deep, let the breath go, decide if you’re willing to do what your boss requires or whether you need a new job.
      Keep in mind that part of your job really is to work with your boss and coworkers in a respectful, professional manner.
      Look for ways to make the writing simple and engaging without being childish, as that’s the compromise that will satisfy your boss. I have to work on my word choice all the time, as I tend to be… overly erudite, and I turn it into a challenge – how many different styles can I use effectively? Which one is right for this piece? (I like lists *waaaaay* too much)

  49. DC*

    I spoke up to my boss about the amount of overtime, and she realized it was crazy and gave me today off! I do have to work all weekend though, but its something.

    I chickened out on talking to anyone this week about the larger systemic issues in the office. Anyone able to help me figure out how to phrase things? I’m the youngest in my office by 15 years, so I want to make sure this is taken seriously, and not as a “whiny millenial who doesn’t understand the workplace.”

    Our temp who is in older than I by 20+ yeara came to ask me if things are always this toxic. So it’s not just me.

    1. A.N.O.N.*

      “I really appreciate getting Friday off last week to recharge. But it made me wonder what to expect in general for the future. What would you say is a normal amount of overtime in this role?”

    2. Specialk9*

      Have you checked that they’re doing overtime legally? Look in your state and county websites for overtime laws.

  50. Lux*

    I’m leaving my job next week. I announced I was leaving by telling those who were in the office that day (5 people) and emailing everyone else (10 people). Of those I emailed only 1 emailed me back to offer congratulations & when the others have been in the office NONE of them have acknowledged I’m leaving, it’s just been ignored. In a team meeting I clarified the date I would be leaving and this was met with complete and utter silence from everyone. I have never felt so awkward or uncomfortable in my life. The 1 person who offered their congratulations following my email eventually asked me if I was excited about my new role so I said that I was but was highly uncomfortable because there hadn’t been much acknowledgement from the team. I said that I couldn’t imagine anyone else in that team announcing they were leaving & it not being acknowledged. Some said they didn’t know what to say to me because they know I’m unhappy with the work situation (it’s a job share & my job share partner is incredibly lazy & incompetent, which they are all aware of). I said that if you know someone is in a situation they don’t want to be in & they are getting out of that situation, surely you’d just congratulate them? I should add that they are all mental health therapists (I’m admin) so the idea of them not knowing what to say in a ‘difficult’ situation such as this is hard for me to believe!

    The people who have not acknowledged my leaving are all close friends with my job share partner (who also has had nothing to say about it) close as in they meet outside of work & have even gone on holiday together. I get on with everyone so I’m completely baffled by why so many can’t even bring themselves to congratulate me or wish me luck, just to be professional. I only have 2 days left but I feel so uncomfortable. A couple of colleagues were trying to convince me to have a fuddle but I decided not to because I couldn’t face sending another email. Someone else suggested I just bring cake in but, to be petty about it I refuse to spend money on a cake for people who can’t even acknowledge that I’m leaving! I’ve said to a few that everyone knows when I’m leaving so I’ll leave it up to them if they want to say goodbye or not. I feel quite hurt by it- I’ve never experienced anything like this before or even heard about this happening to others. How do I handle the last couple of days in the office?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! The only thing I can suggest is that perhaps they feel awkward about approaching you and are planning to save up all their well wishes for your actual last day? People can be weird with work and emotions.

      Just remember that there are reasons that you left, and add this reaction to your list. Think about all the good stuff that has happened over your tenure and let those thoughts get you through your last few days.

      And congrats on your new gig!

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I’d say just to go on as business as usual,be professional, say goodbye to those you want to say goodbye to, thanks them for any help they’ve given to you, and then leave. I totally get being hurt by it–I would be, too–but don’t bother expending any more mental energy on it; it doesn’t seem as though those other people are.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Add it to the list of reasons you are leaving. Take satisfaction in having your choice verified for you.

    3. Crylo Ren*

      Congrats!
      Seconding that people can be really weird about work and emotions. At the last job I left, the people that seemed happiest for me and offered me sincere congratulations were people outside of my actual department. People inside my department seemed more resentful than anything else. Just meant that when I finally walked out of those doors for the last time, I was 100% relieved/gratified and had absolutely no regrets or guilt about leaving.

    4. Sam Foster*

      Maybe they just don’t like you and your badgering them about their lack of well wishes is just reinforcing that?

      1. AshK434*

        that may be true, but this seems unnecessarily rude to me. The OP didn’t badger anyone.

        Op. I’m sorry your coworkers made you feel bad. Focus on your new job and forget about these people! Conratulations!

      2. Lux*

        Yes I thought maybe they didn’t like me especially because they are so close to my job share & protect her, however I don’t think I’m asking too much to expect them to be professional. I would appreciate if you could point out what in my post made you think I was badgering them about it? I mentioned it once to everyone in a team meeting after a week of my leaving not being acknowledged & that was only because they were so silent & I was completely uncomfortable by it. It was discussed again only with a few because they brought it up to me to see if I wanted to have a fuddle.

      3. Specialk9*

        It sounds like you may want to consider your actions over the past months and years, and figure out your role in this. (Which is the only part over which you have control – as you’re seeing by the fact that you’re trying so hard to make your co-workers act the way you want, and they’re not.)

        The number of people to whom you’ve complained seems high (though I’m fairly confused):
        -One emailed congrats and you responded with hurt feelings about others’ lack of response, instead of just saying thanks
        -“some said they didn’t know what to say to me” indicates that multiple people were somehow talked to
        -“A couple of colleagues were trying to convince me to have a fuddle”
        -“Someone else suggested I just bring cake in
        -“I’ve said to a few that everyone knows when I’m leaving so I’ll leave it up to them if they want to say goodbye or not”

        At this point, it sounds like you’re emoting *hard* at the whole office, which is not getting you the result you want. People are pulling away more rather than feeling bad or wishing you well.

        I totally get feeling hurt, and being mad that people aren’t acting how I think is the right way. (I struggle with both! At the root, for me, is often wanting to have control – not proud of it, but it’s my tendency.)

        Perhaps you also might reflect on how you handle the web of relationships at work, because it sounds like you seriously misstepped. You say that the people who are ignoring your leaving are friends with your work partner, who it sounds like you may have thoroughly bad-mouthed. (“they know I’m unhappy with the work situation (it’s a job share & my job share partner is incredibly lazy & incompetent, which they are all aware of)”) Your co-workers should not know so much about your unhappiness, nor about your partner’s laziness and incompetence. That’s stuff to keep to yourself at work!

        The good news is that you get to draw conclusions from how this played out, and make changes in your next work place. So perhaps work on keeping expressions of unhappiness and judgment to yourself as much as you can, and on expressing positivity and gratitude. Also watch for the invisible lines of influence that govern any group of thinking beings.

        1. Lux*

          SpecialK9 I don’t think you read my post correctly.

          I emailed thanks to the person who sent me their congrats by email. I mentioned nothing of the lack of response until a team meeting a week later. I only mentioned it at the end of the team meeting because the news was met with silence & I felt uncomfortable. The meeting was the only time multiple people were spoken to.

          They are all aware of the issues with my job share because her constant mistakes impact upon their work & they had constantly brought up problems to me. She has been a problem for every job share partner she has had.

          1. Sam Foster*

            I’d strongly suggest you look at the interactions you’ve had with SpecialK9 and myself and think long and hard about “how we misunderstood” or how “we should point out to you where you…”

            You may think you are blameless but you are clearly too wrapped up in your victim complex to realize that you are most likely the actual issue.

            1. Lux*

              Your first response to me was rude & SpecialK9 mis-read my post. I am not wrapped up in a victim complex.

  51. The Traveller*

    Who here has moved overseas for a position? I live in the US, have traveled abroad, and recently have been toying with the idea of making a more permanent move.

    But I have no idea how I would get a viable job! I have a master’s degree in the humanities and have taught at a tiny faith-based community college on the west coast for the past few years. I’m not really interested in teaching ESL but am not sure what else is open to me.

    Suggestions? Resources? Tips?

    1. FormerExpat*

      I have – I joined a global organization in a US based position and then was able to transfer abroad after about 6 months due to some lucky timing with a re-structure in their non-US HQs, and the company organized and paid for my visa and relocation. I did have to sign a contract saying I’d stay on for a min of 18 months otherwise I’d have to pay back relocation. When I was ready to move on, I didn’t have very much luck getting interviews with anywhere new as I would have still needed visa sponsorship, and I ended up relocating back to the US (on my own dime, without a job lined up).

      1. FormerExpat*

        Realized my comments didn’t really convey advice and I’m not familiar with teaching industry but just to be a bit more helpful: my tip would be see if there is a global organization you are interested in that may open up opportunities to transfer – that is definitely one of the easier ways to get a job abroad/get visa sponsorship, and was the way all my expat friends also had come to live in the new country – internal transfers!

    2. Traveling Teacher*

      Depending on your degree, you could have a lot of opportunities in a company based on your native speaker writing/communication skills. If you speak another language, I’d start in those countries. Also, check with local “Americans Abroad” groups in countries you’d be interested in moving to. Often, they know of job openings beyond the teaching sector and possibly have the connections to hook you up with an interview, as well. Be sure to look outside of the capitols, where the living is much cheaper and the companies may have far fewer “native speaker” options to choose from for their job postings. I live in an amazing European country in the capitol of the region but not of the country, and there are loads of opportunities for native speakers in many capacities, and there are also plenty of US-based companies in the region. Another option might be to apply with companies with branches abroad, explicitly stating that you are looking to work abroad–plenty of people over here are happy to be here, but they required some major convincing because of kids/families/etc. So, if you are raring to move abroad, a US-based company might see that as a real asset!

      For teaching: There are a lot of opportunities to do CBL (Content Based Learning) for EFL in regular schools abroad and/or many, many international schools who need qualified teachers for subjects other than EFL/English! With a master’s, you should have a lot of options, as many schools abroad require master’s level qualifications for teachers (whether or not you have a teaching degree is often not relevant in my experience, though, especially at the tertiary levels).

      Also, there are plenty of faith-based international schools (K-12 and university level) all over the world who are always looking for qualified teachers. You will not make a lot of money, but you will get to see the world, :) I’d suggest googling the faith group(s) you’d be willing to teach for and look from there. Be aware that there are plenty of international faith-based schools that expect you to fundraise your own salary, which can be…problematic, to say the least, especially in cases where the students actually do pay a hefty sum to the school already… Before you get the interview stage, I’d definitely make sure to find out where the salary is coming from, if possible–online forums usually make that pretty easy! In any case, make sure to check on the school through other channels than the recruiter/job site. Look them up online, make sure that they’re legit, because the last thing you want is to be stuck in some backwater, your passport taken from you, working 12-14 hour days in indentured servitude (yes, this is a real danger! Please be aware!).

      It’s hard to break into the European teaching sector but not impossible. With Brexit looming, that also opens up a ton of opportunities for non-UK teachers to break in to the teaching market here. Good luck!

      1. The Traveller*

        Thanks, I’ll take a look at American Abroad groups! I worked for six months at a faith-based school in Europe, and though there were many things I loved about the experience, I did *not* love fundraising my own salary and won’t be doing that again! Hence, my posting on this board. :)

        1. Traveling Teacher*

          Glad that you’re already aware of the fundraising trap! If you’ve already done teaching at a certain faith-based school in Europe, I might know of which one, :) I was really interested in working there until I found out that bit of info. Not a long-term solution for me either!

          David S. Pumpkin’s idea to check out university partnerships is a great one, too, and AcademiaNut is so right about work visas. Whatever you do, don’t accept a job without one! I have a friend who did that, thinking that he’d for sure be able to renew his non-renewable temp worker visa…and no. They kicked him out of the country because he didn’t follow visa procedures. (It was part-time, as well. Be sure to check on part vs full-time contracts because it’s far easier to get sponsored for a visa if you have full time work).

          Last idea (though you may have already thought of this too): you can always try to find a part-time work from home or freelancing gigs that you could do from anywhere in the world while you’re figuring out where you want to be. I have a friend who does English and Math lessons over Skype and another who’s a freelance writer, and as long as they’re there for scheduled sessions and meet dealines, it doesn’t matter where in the world they’re living or travelling. You have to be organized and ensure that you have reliable internet connections, but as long as you have that, you can go where you want, visa-permitting :)

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Seconding what Traveling Teacher says about there being lots of content-based positions open–I see them all the time on ESL websites (check out the TEFL subreddits, although some of them are negative [although living abroad can also be isolating and a negative experience, so I wouldn’t discount them just because they’re negative either], and check out Dave’s ESL Cafe).

      It also depends a lot on where you want to go/whether you’re really wedded to the idea of going to one or two places or whether you just want to Go Somewhere or whether you’re open to all places with a certain climate or what. A lot of countries seem to have American schools, and I have friends who have taught at them.

      You could also look into whether your college has any sort of partnership with a larger institution that might have an international presence. It might be easier for you to get a job at that institution.

      Even though you’re not huge on the idea of teaching ESL, it also might (heavy emphasis on MIGHT here–I’m not saying this is absolutely true, just that it’s something to look into) benefit you to get a CELTA or similar ESL teaching certificate, especially if you’re interested in teaching in an area where a lot of your students might not know much English. I did a 4-week program to get my CELTA, and even though I’m a terrible teacher (and hopefully will never teach again), I feel like it’s opened some doors for me and made it easier for me to get jobs in non-English-speaking countries.

    4. nep*

      What continent have you got in mind?
      I like the job listing section of reliefwebDOTint — a good listing of jobs all over the world. Perhaps some ideas there.

      1. The Traveller*

        Europe/Asia, both of which I’ve travelled to before and enjoyed. I’ll take a look at the website suggested.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      I have. I’m in a very international branch of academia, moved overseas for a postdoc, and twelve years later I’m working for for the same employer in a different role.

      One of the main things with working abroad is that you need a work visa to do it. So that means you’re a lot more constrained in types of jobs and employers than you would be working locally. There are a couple ways to do this.

      – work for a local (in your case, likely US) organization that posts people abroad, or for a multi-national company where you can work in multiple countries. Where I am, this includes diplomatic personnel, people working in trade, missionaries and engineers for multi-national companies. Your employer generally has things set up so that you can work legally, and procedures for things like health insurance, pension, relocation, etc. It’s not unusual to get paid in US dollars, and depending on the country you’re in, you might be making a lot more than the locals would for similar work.

      – get a job with a local organization overseas. To do this, you usually need a skill that is enough in demand that your employer is willing to sponsor you for a visa. Where I am, this includes things like English teaching, high level technical work and research and working as a nanny or in construction. You may or may not need fluency in the local language, and you’ll typically fall under local regulations for things like health insurance and pensions (and will be making a local salary).

    6. Specialk9*

      Do you speak any languages? Join local Meetup groups for, say, German. Meet people with international networks and learn language and culture.

      Sometimes the US Embassy needs native English speakers, and local language speakers, to work as admins. The actual State Dept workers have to pass rigorous tests, but I don’t think that’s a requirement at that level.

      It’s easier to get a job with any background in business. Perhaps look for a multinational Corp near you and try to get a job there, then transfer internally. Don’t go for something that changes substantially by country, like HR.

      Be aware that there is bias against American expats (with some reason). Be prepared for every single person you know to hold you *personally* responsible for every foreign policy the US government has ever had, and to lecture you and demand explanations. (It’s fun, especially post-Voldemort.) The trick is to find other topics proactively, if you can, like cooking and sports.

      Tell your network that you’re looking for a job in X countries. That’s how I got a couple jobs.

  52. Working at Stressed Out U*

    I’ve been posting on and off seeking advice in these threads due to ongoing turmoil at the private non-profit University I work for. This summer we all took a (supposedly temporary) 2.2% pay cut. On Monday we had our annual ‘State of the University’ address, and when the subject of COLAs, merit raises, or rescinding the pay cut came up, it was heavily implied that it might be 2-3 years before these were on the table again.

    Needless to say, panic insued.

    It turns out my beloved department head has been pursued for the last six months by a non-university nonprofit, and she gave her two weeks notice Wednesday. Everything in me is screaming that it’s time to start job hunting. There are two problems with that: I have only been here a little over two years, and my very generous pension (15% of annual salary) is vested at 0% until I’ve been here five years, at which point it goes to 100%. It’s invested outside the university, so I’m reasonably confident that whatever happens I would get that money (assuming I’m vested). The other problem is that we have a very well regarded program for the field that my husband is looking to enter (and that requires a degree)- and he is currently attending, using my free family tuition benefit. This is saving us ~$30k a year, and even if I was to go into for-profit work, I doubt the salary difference would make up for that savings.

    I guess I’m just looking for reassurance I’m not crazy for not immediately job hunting like mad. I am going to spend this weekend brushing up my resume and starting to send out feelers ‘just in case’, but most of the time I feel like I should try to ride this out due to the two reasons listed above. My boss leaving is just one more uncertainty that is making me doubt that decision. Help?

    1. Amber Rose*

      You’re not crazy. If you can make it on your pay, then those considerations you raised pretty much balance out most income raises, right? Keep your resume polished, but if I were in your shoes I’d probably hang in there a little longer.

      2. Jules the Third*

        +1 you’re not crazy. You’re looking at the total compensation package, which is very very smart. You’re also looking at the long-term picture, which is both smart and hard. We are biologically programmed to focus on the short-term.

        Hold on those next 3 years. If it makes you feel better, manage your risks by saving up as much as you can, using some of those free tuition benefit for your continued training (I really did love my project management class, and it applies to so many aspects of life), and keep in touch with that dept head!

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          Great point on the long-term vs. short term. I was in a similar situation a few years back with a state university and was angry at the pay cut. Shortly thereafter I moved across the country to a larger city with a better range of employers and had a 4 year string of higher paying jobs, but had to leave one unexpectedly and took a $30k pay cut…which put me below my pay at the previous university in a higher cost of living area. Lesson learned there!

    2. Friday is here again!*

      2.2% pay cut (i’m assuming) is a lot less of a hit than paying for your husbands degree, i’d stick it out.

    3. No Green No Haze*

      You are not one bit crazy. Clean up your resume & perk up your ears, by all means, to allay anxiety and remind yourself that there are still options out there, but the phrase “very generous pension” is like a unicorn. And free family tuition in the service of your husband’s career is tremendous. I’m in my mid-40s and have friends still paying off their undergrad student debt.

      Choosing to stick it out for about 3 years in service of those things is not insane. Keep your job-hunting skills up-to-date in case you need them, invest some energy in your accomplishments list likewise, but know that your decision is sound. Obviously things can always get worse, but if it all goes pear-shaped you can leap.

    4. Anon4Now*

      I gotta agree with everyone. And voice my encouragement, we’re facing a similar issue here. Hubs current stock with company vests fully in 2.5 years-which at its current value will pay off our house. Our HOUSE. :-O BUT. His boss is an ahole (Hubs refers to him as Trump like), and Hubs is getting burnt out. So do we stick it out for 2.5 years and be miserable to pay off the house. (We bought 3 years ago to get some perspective on that) Or move on to somewhere he *might* be happier? It’s also a large company so he can make a lateral move to another department, which is another option we’re looking at. As long as he stays IN Company his stock will vest.

      1. Colette*

        … and, if you stay, will the stock still be that valuable in 2.5 years. I know a lot of people who were rich on paper but got nothing by the time the options vested.

        (I don’t know the answer, but remember the potential value is not a sure thing.)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Maybe try for the lateral move and if not then look outside the company.
        That nest egg could be chewed up by medical bills from working in toxic environment.
        And your plan is hooked to the stock market not to money in your bank account. I would go with caution here.

        My husband was given stock options. Sounds cool, right? The option was to buy at $40. The market fell, the stock was worth $20. The options were worthless and they expired.
        Sometimes companies give us stuff and we have to consider it like a dessert, it’s extra and may or many not be of use.

    6. Erin*

      If there isn’t a full hiring freeze, can you move to another role that pays more elsewhere in the U? Totally dependent on your skill set and your U but I had 3 roles in 5 years in a similar circumstance. Bounced around labs then went into admin.

    7. Observer*

      If you can make ends meets, I’d stick around. Both the pension and the tuition benefit are significant portions of your compensation at the moment. It would be different if the tuition credit were not of use to you, but as it is, it’s not something to ignore.

      Of course, if you can’t pay your bills, that’s a different story.

      1. Kat Em*

        Yeah, we were super psyched that they’d recently added fertility benefits to their insurance coverage. Now we get to cancel our appointments.

    4. Kat Em's Sister*

      You’re both very much awesome, so I think everything will be okay in the long run. Also, come drink beer with me.

        1. Kat Em*

          Freaked out and deflated feelings aside, it’s fun having a sibling who also reads AAM. All the “OMG did you see the update about the person who did the thing!?” texts are great, and we’ve both had our letters answered before. (Her question was much more interesting than mine, though.)

  54. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    I found out yesterday that one of the partners at my consulting firm is quitting.
    She’s the senior person I’ve worked the absolute most with, and who’s been responsible for all major projects I’ve done. (I’ve only worked 2.5 years)
    On a personal level, I’ve learned SO much from her, and admire and like her a lot.

    I… don’t know what to do now. I mean, I know and have worked with lots of other senior people, but no one else as much as her. I feel like I’m definitely gonna lose an ally when she leaves. She’s really given me lots of opportunities and was a very vocal and assertive person (which is quite handy come review time)

    What should I do?

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        She’s actually “retiring” (aka quitting work to enjoy life while she’s still young) so not an option.

  55. Anoning for this one*

    Fecking hell. My place of work LOVES LOVES LOVES firing people and I’m essentially paid to find legal ways to fire people (UK based, so more legal rights, although it’s surprising how easy it is). I have no formal H.R training or experience and HATE this.
    In the last 5 minutes my latest job is to help push someone to resign by making changes to their role/place of work.
    Yes, I’m hunting and praying I fail my probation next month.

      1. Anoning for this one*

        Thanks, I hadn’t consider this. Sadly I work at a family business (I know, I should have ran away screaming) so I’m stuck until I escape. I should probably start recording everything and keeping a diary but my brain is turning to mush here and I don’t know where to start :(

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Even if it’s an SME, there are still rules and regs that may apply. And it sound so horribly stressful – for that reason I think it would be good to talk to someone just so you don’t go insane!

  56. anon24*

    I feel pretty ignorant asking this, but what exactly is business professional dress for women? I’ve always worked blue collar jobs where they either provided you with a full uniform or it was “wear this company polo with jeans and work boots.” I don’t even own anything business casual. I am taking a class to become an EMT, and our graduation is in a few weeks. I don’t know if graduation is mandatory, and if it’s not I probably won’t go, but my instructor said that we all have to dress business professional for it. The nicest thing I own is a pair of clean jeans, and I know that obviously is not professional, but I haven’t the faintest idea what is. (I don’t understand why we can’t just wear our student uniforms!)

    1. Buffy*

      To me, business casual is a slack type of pant with a neat top. (I’m not exactly sure what to call them…my mom calls them “work pants” so that’s not helpful haha.) Basically not corduroy or jean. New York and Company has a good selection!

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yep, trousers and a sweater are my go-to for business casual women’s wear. Sometimes I’ll swap out hte sweater for a blouse/sleeveless shell and cardigan/blazer. A sheath or shift dress if I don’t feel like pants. I never wear heels, always some kind of flat or loafer.

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Oh, it really does vary a lot.

      But in super conservative and formal industries, the proper clothes would be either a two-piece dark (black, dark grey, navy) suit with a blazer and a past-the-knee skirt,, a white dress shirt or blouse, panty hose and black closed toe shoes with a low heel.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        For business casual, I would say the above but without the blazer would be alright. Maybe even with ballet flats!
        You could also wear a pair of (black) dress pants with a blouse in a “nicer”fabric with a dark cardigan or non-matching blazer.
        Both those would be at the more formal end of business casual.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      A nice dress in a solid color would work here. Or plain pants and a blouse/sweater of some kind. I second New York and Company for affordable options.

    4. CAA*

      You are asking about “business professional”, right? Some of these answers are for “business casual”, which is different. Business professional generally means a suit – pants or skirt plus matching jacket in a neutral color – with a blouse and low heels or nice flats.

      1. anon24*

        Yes, he specifically said business professional (ugh!). I really don’t want to have to go buy an outfit that I will never wear again but I suppose it will be nice to have for interviews.

        1. CAA*

          To be sure of what clothing you’re looking for, can you ask some women who’ve attended past graduations? Or can you find photos of the events and look at what other people wore?

          If you do need a suit, then I think the idea of looking at thrift stores is a good one. You can have it dry cleaned and tailored for a lot less than buying new would cost.

        2. Anna Held*

          Definitely buy a pair of decent black slacks, and if possible, a black (or dark grey, or navy) skirt as well. Wear the skirt. These are good basic pieces that also work if you’re going out, have a funeral, or other event, depending on what you wear with them (given that your wardrobe and budget are very limited). If you can, wear a nice blouse or oxford and a blazer. If you can’t find the blazer cheap or borrow one, though, go with what you have. Of course you want to look nice, and these are also clothes you’ll want for job interviews and potentially other events, but wear the best you have. Don’t go into debt over clothes you won’t wear regularly, especially if you haven’t found a job yet. And congratulations! This is a huge achievement!

      2. fposte*

        I agree that business casual and business professional are different–but this is also for a one-off appearance at her own graduation, so I think 1) it’s not likely to be the full on suit that they’re talking about and 2) a priority would be to find a way to do this inexpensively.

        Assuming we’re talking female here, I think if you have a decent sweater, you could buy a super-discount skirt and make that an outfit; if you’re short on decent tops, I’d just hit up Old Navy/thrift stores/TJ Maxx/friends and relatives for a dress to wear for the day with an accent scarf.

        1. Amtelope*

          I think a sweater is really noticeably not business professional, though. I think a simple black dress would work better than a sweater and skirt combo if the OP doesn’t want to buy a suit for this.

          1. SpiderLadyCEO*

            I would totally disagree with you on a sweater not being business professional, but I think this depends on the part of the country you are in.

            For me, a nice sweater over a collared shirt and nice skirt is a business professional look.

            1. Amtelope*

              That’s interesting — I’d definitely consider that business casual. In my experience, business professional means either a suit (can be a pants suit) or an outfit including a blazer (over a blouse + skirt/pants or over a conservative dress.) A sweater and a skirt would be the more formal end of business casual.

          2. fposte*

            I’m theorizing–and I may be wrong about this–that they’re using that term to put the fear of Vogue into a crowd that otherwise might consider their nice jeans to be too formal, not because the users of that term mean it the way office workers mean it.

            1. dress codes*

              This seems likely to me, and I’m also skeptical of the “business” portion of things as applied to women’s clothing for a graduation (especially if there will be a robe involved). In my experience, graduation clothes can be a little more fun than office clothes, and I think this particular situation may be similar to the recent invitation I saw to a “business casual” dress code wedding. The host did not actually want everyone to wear what they’d wear to their offices, but instead wanted to say “Men, this is roughly a khaki- or colored-khaki and sweater or nice shirt situation; women, wear celebration clothes at a similar level of formality.” I sort of wonder if for this graduation, they mean, “Men, you should wear the nicest stuff you have, up to and including a suit; women, do a similar level of formality though you don’t actually need the level of serious-ness that officewear entails.”

    5. Traveling Teacher*

      Can you borrow something from a close friend since you doubt you would wear it again? Perhaps you could frame it as her graduation gift to you? :) Otherwise, Goodwill has some surprisingly good options; where my parents live, it’s chock full of professional-wear (like 20 bucks for a complete business professional type ensemble). If you’re only going to wear it once, you can always re-donate it afterwards!

    6. NaoNao*

      Well, to most I think business professional is one of two options:
      A full suit (meaning matching, tailored slacks or skirt and blazer in a conservative color)
      or
      A fitted conservative, tailored dress with a blazer
      or
      A very carefully put together, outfit of slacks, a blouse (meaning it is woven, not knit) and a blazer.

      Shoes should be closed toe and heel, lower than 3″ in general, and of a conservative design and color.
      Jewelry should be minimum and conservative: small studs, a single ring, a small necklace.
      Makeup should be “enhanced natural” if you wear it
      Hair should be styled up or if it’s shorter, combed and styled, perhaps with a barrette or headband. If possible, a haircut or blowout might be in order.

      Generally, woven fabrics (such as cotton, wool, or silk) rather than knits, and solid, neutral colors read as business professional.

      Shops I recommend:
      $:
      Nordstrom Rack
      Gap
      Banana Republic (sale rack)
      Thrift stores IF you’re stylish and love to shop and really know your figure

      $$
      Macys
      J Crew
      Madewell
      Ann Taylor Loft
      White House/Black Market

      $$$
      Chicos
      J. Jill
      Sundance
      Soft Surroundings
      Theory
      Eileen Fisher
      Neiman Marcus
      Dillards

      Other option: borrow from a friend, or use Dress for Success. Dress for Success specifically carries women’s business professional outfits including briefcases and shoes, for women who are going into their first job or otherwise can’t afford the full corporate getup. Give them a look!

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        Always ask the store if they have student discounts. I know Madewell, J.Crew, and Ann Taylor all do. (And they will sometimes give it to you even if you do not have a student ID!)

        Another cheaper alternative is H&M.

    7. Admin of sys*

      As folks said, professional usually means matching jacket/pants or a solid dress and blazer, or a skirt/jacket combo. I’d definitely hit up thrift shops – look for a basic black skirt and a blazer that fits, also preferably black. Wear a blouse or a solid not-knit shirt under the blazer. You can probably find something for ~$15 or so, assuming you’re in the US. Or find a black dress and a gray blazer. You can get a pretty decent business appropriate wardrobe by shopping thrift stores in a lot of places

    8. Lison*

      Just to say about the attending the graduation I work with a woman who didn’t know what she wanted to do after high school and went from blue collar job to being an intern where I work. She is so talented that work helped with her tuition and she did brilliantly but she wasn’t sure she wanted to be bothered by the graduation ceremony. She did because people nagged her into it and after said she was so glad she did, she had not thought it would mean anything but going through it and everyone being so happy for her meant more than she ever imagined it could before it happened.

    9. Denise - New Las Vegas resident*

      Short version: find a good fitting pair of black slacks and a nice blouse (old-fashioned acceptable for church). Look at the toes (the part anyone would see) of shoes & boots to find a comfy pair in your price range.

      I’m a BioMed and in some shops you wear scrubs and in the rest it’s business casual. Business casual that can crawl under a hospital bed and change a motor (I actually have a full apron my daughter made me). Business casual can be simple. Which is what I prefer. I have Dickies Xtreme Stretch Drawstring Flare Scrub Pants in black (style 82011). I have 5 pants and a bunch of short sleeve, button down tops with sorta matching camis (needed for the suspenders). Pair with a good looking pairs of “hiking” boots (you can’t see the tops so they look like good shoes), small earrings and a barrette and Ta-DA! business casual with a minimum of fuss.

      The Dickies fit well and have lasted really well (2 years and counting). The tops all come from thrift stores. The boots cost the most, which makes sense ’cause I don’t need my feet to hurt.

      Note: I am 5’8 with wide shoulders, big bust, belly and no hips. So not an easy fit. I actually wear Duluth’s side suspenders to keep my rear covered.

      And good luck with your new career! :-D

  57. Hairless Cat*

    Social media etiquette question! So here’s the situation: a manager that I really like recently sent me a friend request. She used to be my direct manager and really went to bat for me a bit ago for a promotion. Then she was promoted herself and moved to a different department, so she’s no longer my direct manager. Is it appropriate to accept the request under these circumstances, or should I just keep Facebook completely separate from work? Possibly relevant: I work in retail (where the rules are a little looser), and I post on Facebook about once a millennium, and never to

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      I think you can if you want to, and if you don’t want to, just tell her, oh, sorry, I keep work and Facebook separate. I have added most of my managers on Facebook, but a lot of my work integrates with social media. I have accounts hidden away (Tumblr, Instagram, friends-only Twitter) and I keep my Facebook pretty immaculate, so it hasn’t been a problem

      So it’s up to you! If you feel like you want to add her, then go for it! If not, don’t.

    2. Admin of sys*

      I used to keep facebook and work entirely separate, and then I started working at a company with 3+ friends, and decided that unfriending them would be worse. I’d say it depends on whether you’re okay with managing your facebook feed from here on out to make sure nothing inappropriate gets said.

  58. Penguin Lifting Heavy Things*

    So about six weeks ago I interviewed for a job at my dream company. I had (what I considered) a whirlwind three interviews in four days, but they ultimately went with someone with more industry-specific experience (I coordinate nonprofit events, this was a job to coordinate conventions). Their recruiter was great – she told me in my rejection email: “if you see any other roles you’re interested in, please do not hesitate to give me a shout” and connected with me on LinkedIn. This company just posted another job this morning that I’m qualified for (mostly because it’s entry-level) in marketing. Honestly, I would much prefer to be in marketing, I just fell into event planning after college (my degree is in PR/Marketing). What do I say in my email to their recruiter? Should I redo my cover letter, focusing on my (limited) marketing experience and send it to her? Do I need to re-tool my resume?

    1. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

      I had something similar happen to me recently. I reached out to the recruiter and said something to the effect of “Hi , hope you’re doing well! I just noticed that you posted X position this morning, which I feel even more excited about and qualified for than the initial position I applied for. I’d love to throw my hat in the ring for this one; what do you need from me to move forward with the application?”

      In my case, I ended up not having to submit another resume and cover letter because they’d already interviewed me and the recruiter felt comfortable moving me forward to the interview stage. Reaching out first gives them an opportunity to explain what they need without you having to potentially waste time working on what might be an unnecessary resume/cover letter.

      1. Penguin Lifting Heavy Things*

        Thank you! I basically said what you advised, except I left out the “More qualified than the initial position”. Honestly, I likely am more qualified for the initial position but I’m ready to switch careers. Fingers crossed – this company would be incredible to work for.

  59. Jimbo*

    Not a question this week but a small “win.” I’ve been job hunting for three months now. Currently unemployed. I’ve been getting good traction on my cover letters and resumes and getting first and second interviews. But so far no job yet. I’ve been getting frustrated and feeling down. Someone suggested I make it a routine, with every rejection, to ask the interviewer for feedback. To see if I said or did something, or made a bad impression in any way. So that I can get actual information on what I need to work on or improve in my interviewing. I’ve gotten two responses so far. One said I didn’t do anything wrong. I just did not fit the **exact profile** of what they were looking for. They had other candidates who did so they went with the other folks. The other person said my rejection was mainly a matter of timing. I had just started interviewing whereas other candidates were on their second or third interviews already. Before I can move on to the next round, they had decided to make an offer to someone. But she said I made a very good impression and presented myself very well. These info gave me a feeling of relief that I haven’t been doing anything that was glaringly wrong or bad. Small win. I’ll take that!

    1. nep*

      Absolutely. Great that you took the initiative to do that. Terrific and reassuring feedback for sure. I can see how this would turn your mindset around and boost your motivation.
      All the best in your search.

      1. Anna Held*

        Try to think of it in terms of statistics. Even though this stuff is HUGE to you (been there), the number of jobs you’ve applied for and interviews received is likely pretty small in terms of a sample size. If you’ve gotten 5 interviews, that’s too small a number to see a pattern. If you’ve interviewed at 10 or more, maybe you can start to see a pattern — but which pattern? Are you just applying for jobs you’re great for, or are you reaching? Maybe you’re getting interviews for jobs that you’re not a great fit for, but you’ve got good enough materials that they want to talk to you. That’s a huge win.

  60. LaborLaw*

    Thanks to everyone who commented last week on potential leave of absence from law school, because I was due in February.
    I did speak with my Dean, who granted me a leave of absence for next semester, which is great. BUT! The day after, my water unexpectedly broke at 27 weeks, which means I’m on permanent bed rest in the hospital. So I’m having to withdraw from a few of my exam-tested classes for this semester. Turns out, planning ahead can only get you so far.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      Please, please tell me your dean offered the idea of an incomplete or a retroactive withdrawal given the circumstances. I’ve done two of those this semester for students who had (in one case) 2 deaths of immediate family in two months.

  61. Drama Llama*

    I interviewed a close colleague’s daughter in law. DIL didn’t interview well. She was confused about the various aspects of the job despite repeated explanations. She seemed like she would struggle with basic instructions and was reluctant to commit to the required hours. Fortunately we had an excuse to decline her during the interview – she wasn’t able to commit to the shift work so we said we will contact her if something comes up that matches the hours she was looking for.

    She sent me a long email today pleading for the job. She said she changed her mind about her available hours and will “make it work” somehow. Considering her close ties with my colleague I feel I should write a tactful personalised rejection email, but I feel she will just continue a debate with me about how perfect she is for the job. Also don’t want to cause ill feelings with her MIL who I work with daily. What’s a suitable way of rejecting her here?

    1. Murphy*

      I think, given the connection, sending her a rejection email would be appropriate. Beyond that, you aren’t obligated to continue to debate it with her, so if she does that, you can just refuse to engage.

    2. Fiona*

      Could you say that since she told you she couldn’t commit to the hours, you’ve since moved on to other candidates and you’re about to finish the hiring process? (If this is even close to true, I think it’s okay to indicate). Then it’s not about whether she’s good for the job, it’s just that it’s “too late.” I think a kind white lie helps. Sorry though :( This is an awkward situation.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I agree with this. “Thanks for the information; unfortunately, we’ve already moved forward with our hiring process.” Don’t engage further, and don’t answer subsequent emails.

    4. A Different Person Definitely Wearing Groucho Marx Glasses*

      I just had a deeply annoying conversation with my soon to be ex boss. I really need to get back to work so I’m going to do my 5 minutes of venting here.

      [Context: The reason I was looking for a job is that I am being laid off and my last full time day is November 17th. That’s been my last day for months and months. A week or two ago, there was a sudden change in business needs and my boss, our consultant, and myself were discussing the possibility of a part time extension, but nothing has been finalized.]

      STB Ex Boss is trying to guilt me and complain about a lack of professionalism in “not giving two weeks notice”. A heart FUCK YOU, Frank, you hired me, sold your company three months later, and have been stringing us all along about impending layoffs ever since then, then kicking the date down the road every time it approaches. I didn’t quit, you asshole, you terminated my employment months ago, and I have now declined to accept an offer of a part time extension. As I am not 75 and rich, I kind of needed a permanent, full time job with benefits.

      I don’t give a shit about you or your company. Why should I? Please take your misguided need for loyalty and throw it off a bridge.

      1. fposte*

        You were unprofessional for not warning him that he had laid you off? Yeah, that’s a special mental state.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Indeed. But he made the choice to represent himself instead of hiring a lawyer, so at least we can feel confident the judge will give him the smack down he so richly deserves.

  64. Odyssea*

    TL;DR: How can I nicely shut down an employee’s constant asking for extra hours I can’t give her?

    I work for an institution that has very strict rules on how many hours our part-time staff can work. They are restricted to 19.5 hours a week, with 16 weeks a year where they can work up to 29 hours. Those weeks are usually reserved for peak times, when we need all hands on deck, though they are sometimes used for covering when other staff are out. If an employee goes over those 16 weeks, they can’t work at all for the remainder of the fiscal year.

    I try to keep on top of this to avoid that kind of situation, but I have an employee who is constantly asking for more hours. For instance, when a co-worker was coming in 30 minutes late – “Can I work that half-hour?” Asking to work her full allotment of 19.5 for Thanksgiving when we’re only open two days. Etc. There are times when we do need her to work extra (this weekend for example), but the constant asking is starting to grate on my nerves. I understand that she would like to make some extra money, but she is one of three part-time employees in this department, and I try to make sure if there is overtime that it is shared out equally (and that in the case of short weeks, everyone gets their time cut evenly).

    I don’t want to be harsh, so is there a nice way of saying, “Don’t ask me. I’ll ask you.”?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      How much can you plan ahead? Maybe mapping out who is getting what extra hours and when might help alleviate her anxiety about getting extra hours. It might also help her be aware of how close to the line she’s getting.

    2. LCL*

      “Don’t ask me. I’ll ask you.” is the PROFESSIONAL way. Don’t focus on being polite, focus on being professional. If managing the hours is your responsibility, take control of it. Don’t spend a lot of time in the weeds explaining how you plan for busy times, unless she really wants to know.

      She is constantly asking you because it works sometimes. It’s the same reason gambling works, studies have shown that intermittent rewards are stronger than constant rewards.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I think you’ve nailed it with this: “I understand that she would like to make some extra money, but she is one of three part-time employees in this department, and I try to make sure if there is overtime that it is shared out equally (and that in the case of short weeks, everyone gets their time cut evenly).”

      Change ‘she’ to ‘you’ and you’re good to go!

  65. Shellesbelles*

    Any advice for dealing with grief at the office? I have 5 family members in the hospital for serious, life-threatening reasons and I’m having a really hard time focussing and keeping it together.

    1. Anon for This*

      Can you take time off? Sometimes the best thing we can do is provide ourselves the time we need to process what we are experiencing.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m so sorry – this sounds incredibly difficult. Is there any way you can triage your work and prioritise things that aren’t so demanding or difficult?

    3. Crylo Ren*

      So sorry to read this. If you have good rapport with your boss, let them know what you are going through (whatever you feel comfortable sharing) and see if they can help you re-prioritize tasks. Letting them know may also help give them context if things slip or if you aren’t performing up to your usual standard.
      Wishing you peace and strength.

    4. Mm Hmm*

      At one point, I would take my lunch break at a nearby church where crying in the corner every day was just fine. Having that outlet was a real boon & made dealing with the workday easier.

      I’d also tell my boss, assuming she’s at all reasonable. 5 people is a huge load to carry (I’m so sorry), & if you may need some time off to help in some way this is a heads-up that it could be coming.

      Cut back on anything non-essential that doesn’t feed you in the rest of your life to give yourself more room right now. Up your self-care if you can.

      Internet hugs.

    5. No Green No Haze*

      On a minute-by-minute basis? Kava tea, I’m not kidding. I don’t love the taste but it does knock the sharp edges off of stressful emotions without dulling alertness or focus, and can help move me through stress to concentration.

      More broadly, all the smart things other people are saying; and I’m sorry this is happening to you.

  66. ThatLibTech*

    My boss just gave me one of the biggest compliments I’ve ever received professionally. She told me that she was really impressed by the fact that I came into the role, stepped up, and fulfilled it exactly as she wanted it to be filled, that I’m very independent (as in, I don’t need her constantly holding my hand to accomplish things), and that she’s really glad to have me.

    I’m really glad I made the jump to leave my last job for this one. It’s been going well (other than missing my morning bus and having to drive to work, I need to get better at that! Lol).

    She did give me a mini-assignment after she attended a seminar involving retention of employees (in our field) and targeting their work towards their strengths, and she asked me to come up with a list of things I consider my strengths so we can see if there are things I could be taking on doing (but obviously not overloading me with work!). I’m still not sure how to tackle that one yet, as I still have some intense “impostor syndrome” at times and wonder if I even HAVE any strengths.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      A colleague told me that he heard my grand boss say to a former employee that “We are so glad we have Totes. I mean we miss Pre-Totes person. Don’t tell Pre-Totes we don’t miss her but we are so glad we have Totes.” My boss told me that they weren’t ever sure they’d be able to replace my predecessor but then I came and well, I stepped in those shoes without any issues. Makes you feel so good doesn’t it?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Instead of thinking of strengths, why not make a short list of the parts of the job that come easy to you and/or you enjoy doing.

      OTH, ask her where she sees you as being strong. Be prepared to disagree, even it if is silently disagree. ;)

  67. I'm just sayin'*

    If an employee worked at a law firm, and saw/experienced certain things, and wanted to report the attorneys in charge for ethics violations, how do they do it? The state bar has online reporting if one was a client, but this is different. Also, the employee fears retaliation so would like to stay anonymous.

    Any feedback.

    Asking for a friend.

  68. Lynn*

    I’m already stumped on holiday gifts for people in my office. Ethics rules at my office prevent cash/gift cards. The two levels above me give $5-$10 gifts (usually candy). I have about 40 people (paralegals, receptionists, admins, etc) that I give thanks you cards and a gift. In prior years, I did a snack bar (fruit, desserts, finger foods, etc.), but our new work at home arrangements mean there is no longer any one day with everyone in the office. I’ve also done nice pens and small plants before. I’m just not sure what would make a nice, useful, unisex gift in that price range. Any ideas?

    1. Amber Rose*

      A couple years ago we all got little keychain bottle openers, and I’ve gotten a ton of use out of mine. Also a little tiny screwdriver with swappable bits. Or day of the week calendars with funny sayings on them. Mine had a bunch of laws, like Murphy’s law, that kind of thing. I enjoyed it a lot. Maybe cookie tins?

    3. Arielle*

      I’m sure this wouldn’t fly in every office but last year my manager gave everyone a bottle of craft beer. (The large wine bottle size, he didn’t just break up a six pack among us.) It was great, I love gifts that are edible/disposable. I hate having to find space for another trinket.

    4. Max Kitty*

      One of the most useful gifts I ever got was a small silver mesh container mounted on a magnet — it’s on our fridge and holds paper clips, rubber bands, twist ties, etc.

  69. Fiona*

    For those who report your own hours for overtime: do you struggle with that at all?

    For background: I worked at an arts organization for many years, exempt. Pretty traditional 9-5 job. I then transitioned into a tangential field, in post-production and I’m a couple years in, still in a more junior role. (I transitioned to this new field later than most of my peers).

    My most recent job (I’m about 9 months in) requires a lot of OT, which is fine. I report my hours and attribute it to the job it was for. Nobody would EVER question my reporting of my hours – they trust me and they see that I work hard and stay late. The issue is that I find myself downplaying my own OT, obviously to my detriment! If I feel like I was working slowly, I’ll round down instead of up. If my own error causes a bit of a delay, I’ll subtract that. Basically I’m honest to a degree that is likely harming me financially and leaving money on the table.

    And since it will inevitably come up, yes, I’m a woman and I do think there are certain societal influences that leave me feeling anxious about seeming greedy or something equally silly. My male partner would have NO problem accounting his overtime to the literal minute. He feels his time is valuable and he’s right!

    Anyone else struggle with this?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Yes! I justify it in my head as “oh well I didn’t report the 10 extra minutes I spent at lunch or the 15 minutes I spent reading AAM, so it all evens out.”

    2. Gloucesterina*

      I report hours/minutes (not overtime, just plain old time) in one of my roles; last year, I got completely backed up actually reporting the time during a busy period and had to convince myself (over many months) that it was worth contacting my supervisor to report the time from months and months ago. I eventually did it; but yeah, it was hard. I seriously entertained the idea of writing off those many hours! So crazy. Why past me, why?

      In your case, I wonder if it’s worth reframing the idea that you are being “honest” if you report less overtime than you actually worked. True honesty would be to report the time that it took to complete the job, not subtracting based on some arbitrary acceptable maximum amount of OT you concocted in your head.

      It also helps me to remind myself that my supervisor is going to approve the time that I report. She is not going to comb it over and say, “hey, this took way more time than I think it should. No $ for you, shame on you!”

    3. KAG*

      I completely do this. At the end of the day, i put down the number of hours that I consider were “productive” – on a weekday, that will likely be 8 or 10 if in the office; 10 or 12 if at home. And I’m a salaried employee whose work is not billable to a client! When I was a contractor, I would bill 8 hour days, 5 days a week; if I pulled an all-nighter, I would bill 10 for that day. I’m comfortable with this, as I want the hours I submit to be reflective of my standards and the quality of work i expect of myself – it’s also why I struggled in my years as a (salaried) consultant, as my billable hours weren’t competitive.

  70. Bonu$ Complication$*

    Typically, year end bonuses are distributed at the holiday party the weekend before Thanksgiving. This year due to scheduling conflicts the party is being held the weekend after Thanksgiving, but the company line has been that checks would still be handed out the week before because they understand people may want the funds for Black Friday shopping, etc.. At the staff meeting this week, the big boss “asked” if anyone had a problem with them holding the checks until the holiday party so that they can make a big deal out of presenting them (we have client partners in attendance). No one objected out loud, although there was sort of a pregnant pause, at which point boss added that one could still email him privately about getting their check on the original schedule if needed, and they’ll just present an empty envelope at the party.

    I can’t decide if I should ask for my check early. I could really use it, and not just for Christmas shopping reasons, but I also feel like the fact that I can’t wait an additional two weeks for my bonus is more information about my personal circumstances than I really want my bosses to have.

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      Boo hiss! If presenting empty envelopes is an option, why can’t they just do that ANYWAY? Y’all should go as a team to suggest that. That is lame!

    2. Anon for This*

      I’d ask for it. You can always phrase it as in order to help determine your holiday budget you’d prefer to receive it now. The CEO doesn’t need to know that your holiday budget consists of other things.

      1. Anecdata*

        I think you can go ahead and ask for it – they’ve even set you up with a pretty non-personal reason (” I’m planning some Black Friday shopping”) that you can use without really revealing anything about your personal finances.

  71. Billingsworth*

    My team lead (not my manager) is driving me bananas. He has no ability to delegate and has an impulsive need to respond to every email that comes through his inbox within 5 minutes. That means I get:

    – caught up in chains of “Thank you!” “No, thank you!” “Thank YOU!”

    – get endless advice about how I should respond to emails (because my response was delayed by MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES, so obvs I don’t know what to say!) instead of just LETTING ME RESPOND. I am not a junior employee.

    – him responding immediately to emails he is just cc’d on that are meant for me directly (“What does this mean???”), mucking up my projects and overflowing my inbox and meaning I have to respond to yet another email explaining the same thing I’m going to explain when I respond to the email if he would just WAIT TEN MINUTES

    – he frequently will respond to things within five minutes asking “Billingsworth, can you please provide input?” which makes me look bad in front of our clients. YES. THIS IS NOT URGENT. I WILL PROVIDE INPUT WHEN I GET TO IT IN TEN @()*$(@ MINUTES

    We’re working on having him delegate more things to me but that is becoming impossible. For example, he is supposed to be delegating responsibility for all aspects of our teapot student outreach program. Except of course, he’s cc’d on every email because he’s the team lead and he can’t control his impulses so now he’s jumping in and DOING THINGS and now I never know what’s been done because he can’t control his damn fingers.

    Ugh. I don’t think there’s anything I can do because this has already been addressed with him by our shared manager and myself, but I just needed to rant. He’s pleasant to deal with in person but every time I see his name pop up in an Outlook notification I want to hurl my computer out a window. Arghhh!!!!

    1. WITney Houston*

      Can you ask your manager for advice? Or a colleague who has worked with this Team Lead before? They may have tips for managing him.

      If you don’t feel comfortable with either of those or any tips from those people don’t work, I would recommend having a polite but firm conversation with TL to the effects of “I really appreciate your sense of urgency, but I’ve noticed that we have different working styles/preferences when it comes to emails. I understand that you are highly responsive to client requests, but for non-urgent issues I don’t want to set the expectation that we will always be able to respond immediately (because as you know that is not always possible). Also, if you are concerned about my response (or lack thereof) to a client, please talk to me or email me privately as I don’t want the client to think we’re not working well as a team.”

      Something to that effect. You could also throw in there that all the emails asking you to respond actually delay your response as you wade through your inbox.

  72. NewBoss5000*

    One of my direct reports is retiring January 5. She’s currently out on personal medical leave and probably won’t be back to work until right before her retirement.

    When she told me and my boss about it, we both suspected that our administration would want to take the money from her salary and apply it elsewhere, to one of the shiny new “initiatives” that get all of the attention and support anyway. But my boss’s boss told me to look at this as an “opportunity” to think about how I would like to revise the job descriptions of our other staff (which I had already been working on since this past January).

    A meeting was scheduled for yesterday to discuss this issue. Last week I met with my boss’s boss to go over possible scenarios for handling this direct report’s departure: these included keeping us at the status quo to using the money elsewhere and doing some sort of “matrix”-style management of the staff here, sharing responsibilities with another department.

    I left work early on Wednesday because I had hurt my back. When I came in to work yesterday, I found that the meeting had been cancelled because administration had already made their decision. My direct report’s position is gone as soon as she retires; the money is going to the new initiatives; and the head of the other department may take over management of my staff who do similar work.

    I responded to the cancellation (did a “reply all”) that I was disappointed that I wasn’t given the chance to discuss this change with everyone involved, so that I could give my thoughts and advocate for my staff and my department.

    My boss’s boss later said she was sorry I was upset, but that my boss had told her I was “anxious” about the meeting so she thought this way she could keep me from having to worry about it. (This is completely in line with her history of benign patronizing of her direct and indirect reports.) She claims she gave my report to the others and discussed it with them. But the new initiative is her baby, so she “wins” either way.
    I’m pretty sure she could not have advocated as strongly for me and my department as I would have.

    I’ve been struggling with lack of motivation and low morale for a while. Being given the role of staff manager was, I thought, an opportunity for me to make a difference in a new way, and was a welcome distraction from personal disappointments that happened last year. But now I feel like I’ve been told that my work, my thoughts, my opinions do not matter. I put in months of work to try to explain my ideas for how our department can move forward and make real positive changes to serve our users, for how I can motivate long-term staff and really make our department a positive, forward-thinking place. And all of it has been ignored. Now I’m down a supervisory position and I’m still stuck with my two under-performers, with no real power to do anything (it’s incredibly hard to fire anyone here). My boss is so conflict averse that she hasn’t been able to help at all, and my boss’s boss is now someone I feel I can no longer trust.

    I feel as though I’ve been excluded from decision making processes that directly affect me and those I manage. I do not know how my staff will view these changes, but I suspect they will seriously doubt my ability to be their advocate and to manage effectively. I feel like this is a big red flag to my department that, in the great scheme of things, we don’t really matter. And I am so frustrated, disillusioned, and angry.

    I suppose I’m mostly ranting, but I’m also wondering if anyone else has dealt with this kind of situation as a middle manager. How do I help support and advocate for my direct reports while trying to personally deal with such a serious professional disappointment?

    1. WellRed*

      You have been excluded from a process that you shouldn’t have been and it sounds like you lost some staff to another manager (?). Honestly, it sounds like this is going to be a position where you have little say or power, which is a miserable place to be. As to how your staff will view your ability, I’m going to say they won’t see it as negatively as you suggest. I mean, it doesn’t sound like huge changes for them. It’s not like you were trying to advocate for raises and wound up with a pay cut. Still, the whole thing stinks.

  73. New job*

    I started a new job on Monday and was in orinatation. Tuesday morning, I report to my new job- only to learn I wasn’t expected. I was sent to shadow in another department that day and two others this week. My boss won’t be in until the 21st . In the meantime I’ve learned we are to account for all our time in outlook and cc him on all emails. I feel like I’m seeing a lot of red flags.

    1. WellRed*

      Could be red flags (especially the email thing) but some of the disorganization, while disconcerting, could be because the boss is away. Proceed with caution and eyes wide open.

  74. The Adjunct Chronicles*

    I work as an adjunct in a college. This college is known for low adjunct pay and for deducting pay from adjuncts if they cancel class. Some adjuncts skip without notifying the office, but they risk students letting the cat out of the bag.

    I have kept quiet and have conducted every class in my nearly decade long time with them. The only times I have missed class was due to snowstorms and the college declared the closing; in doing so, the college does not deduct pay.

    However some adjuncts supposedly have not kept quiet but rather have sought out help from a union. Now union representatives have been going around to the adjuncts, trying to get their signatures for a simple majority in order to announce their arrival on campus. But I have reservations about this whole thing.

    The union representatives do not tell us when they will be paying us a visit. Suddenly I see someone waiting outside my classroom and that person comes in as soon as the last student leaves. They do not show any ID as to who they are or who they are with/for. They do give any paperwork, and when they say they’ll take your email to send more info, they do not follow through on that email. I have had three visits thus far and I am getting really annoyed. I so much as told the last person, and she said she couldn’t give me anything because there is no platform for this college. I said to her you don’t even have anything from the union you represent. Why should I believe you let alone sign anything? When I did see what was expected to be signed it really looked unprofessional; it was a bunch of loose papers with signatures and email addresses.

    While I would like at least one PTO day per course (and not rely on snowstorms for a break) or higher pay, I’m not too sure about all of this. Now I’m afraid that if I sign anything and the college finds out, they will use the clause in the contract we sign each semester that says employment now doesn’t guarantee future employment. And on the flip side I fear that if I sit on the sidelines and not sign, if the union gets in, they will use that same clause against me. If the union wins, and especially if it turns into a closed shop, I will (have to) join in order to keep my job.

    My questions are:
    -Do I have anything to worry about if I tell the union reps that I am going to sit this out and wait to see what happens? They have been quite pushy and have said, “Why are you so hesitant?”
    -Should I report these uninvited visitors (as in uninvited by me) to security especially since they don’t provide ID? Even when I said this to the last one, she still didn’t offer up ID. Yet they know me by name.
    -Am I missing anything and should be addressing or thinking about?

    Thanks!

    2. blackcat*

      Hmm, it does seem like they are being super pushy, and union folks should totally hand over a business card or similar if you ask for it.

      I think it’s fair to tell union organizers that you are concerned about retribution. *If* you’d support a vote for a union, you can explain you’d be willing to sign a card in support of that, but not a public statement. Card signers should not be shared with your university. I helped with a union drive and we kept all card signers names under wraps. The employer never knew who signed and who didn’t. The NLRB office (the gov) checked names and similarly did not disclose to the university.

      On the flip side, union folks cannot boot you out of your job for being anti-union. If a vote happens and a union is formed, the union legally represents ALL of the bargaining unit, including anti-union members.

      To be clear, it is illegal for your employer to retaliate against you for participating in organizing. It *can* happen, but, if you’ve been consistently rehired ever semester for a decade, I’d say it’s pretty unlikely in your case.

      I will say at my university, unionization has been SUCH A BIG DEAL for our adjuncts. They get paid, on average 30% more than before the contract. They get health insurance, leave policies, and semester to semester re-hiring conditions. They are with SEIU, which can be a bit flaky, but has a lot of experience with adjunct organizing in particular. But no SEIU organizer I have met gets cranky if you ask them for ID/a card/”Who the hell are you?!?”. And they’ve all been pretty organized.

    3. Lora*

      Do I have anything to worry about if I tell the union reps that I am going to sit this out and wait to see what happens? They have been quite pushy and have said, “Why are you so hesitant?”

      No. It’s on them to be more organized and provide you with information. Plus, since they aren’t even elected yet, there’s no reason to accept anything from *this* union, especially given that they are so disorganized – there are multiple unions who have organized in higher education (SEIU is pretty big but there are others: American Federation of Teachers, California Teachers Association, National Education Association, AAUP, UAF-UAW) and there’s no reason they shouldn’t have to compete with a union who has their stuff together.

      Should I report these uninvited visitors (as in uninvited by me) to security especially since they don’t provide ID? Even when I said this to the last one, she still didn’t offer up ID. Yet they know me by name.

      If they are doing things that would get them reported to security regardless of who they were, although depending on your campus you might be unpleasantly surprised by what is permissible. They should have at least, like, a business card or something to show/give you. They are technically trying to help you but going about it in a sucky way, and people are human. I personally would escalate it to the union management first, because they should be supplying organizers with materials and coaching them on how to approach people.

      Am I missing anything and should be addressing or thinking about?

      Might want to read over the NLRB rules of what is and isn’t allowable by both employers and union organizers, and both the history of union busting and current union busting practices. It can get far uglier than you imagine, up to and including murder. Even in these days. The people doing the organizing, from which you would benefit (as you point out), are really sticking their necks out for you in a substantial way. Regardless of the union getting in or not, it will be hard for them to get a job in a non-union shop and it can be a real career-ender.

    4. FormerOP*

      Maybe read up on how other unions were formed? This might give you a sense of whether the tactics you’ve seen are normal, or flag raising. East Coast Writer’s Guild in newish, not your industry, but there could be perspective there

      Is your college private? If it is, you can always ask people to leave if they make you uncomfortable. Some private colleges have public space on their grounds (my alma mater did) but outside the classroom is probably private property of the college and thus you have standing to just tell people to leave.

        1. Lora*

          Ohhh see that changes whether Security can even help you or not. If it’s a public college/university, Security can’t do much.

          Ex-husband went to a public university and there was a group of religious wackjobs (think Phelps clan, but a different group – yes, sadly there’s more than one) who would scream through a PA system all kinds of horribly offensive things, follow women around campus screaming at them that they were dressed like whores (in Bermuda shorts) and should be raped to death, you would not believe the nastiness. The university could legally confine their shenanigans to certain designated public speaking areas, but they weren’t banned from campus until their fearless leader actually assaulted a professor and a student. Even then, they were allowed back after they’d paid the fine.

          You’re definitely better off telling the union main office that these people need to have business cards and stuff, they can’t be creeping around people’s classes and expect to make a good impression getting election cards signed. The large unions do have training on how to approach people, but they sometimes have to be told that it’s A Problem.

    5. Lison*

      If there is a union you think might help you you can contact them yourself directly and if the person who contacted you was bad tell them. I’m not unionised but when the local shop steward suggested the union to me he gave me the address of the responsible national representatives and told me he would only know if/when I joined. But I’m in Europe so it may well be different.

    6. Observer*

      If you are in the US, your college cannot fire (or refuse to re-hire you) for joining the union. The contract clause is not enough to protect them. If you’ve had good reviews, and they suddenly decide not to continue your employment, they are going to have to explain this. And, if they do this a a significant number of people who say they want to join the union, they WILL lose.

      Their question about your hesitation is legitimate. That deosn’t mean you have to join, and if they are pushy on other ways, that’s a problem.

      Why would report them to security?

      Not having a card or basic materials IS sloppy and stupid, and I agree it makes sense to tell them that you aren’t really interested in working with a group that can’t even get their act together to have cards or basic information about the union.

      I would also ask them how they are planning to manage confidentiality, and how they will help you if the college decides to retaliate. Yes, it is absolutely illegal to retaliate, but you are concerned that the college may do so anyway either because they don’t know the law or because they are counting on people not having the resources to fight them. What are they plans to deal with that possibility?

  75. CrazyCatLady*

    Has anyone ever had a phone interview with a panel that was really rushed? I applied for a state employee fundraising job and when they contacted me to set up a phone interview, they offered me a choice of 6 20 minute slots within a 1.5 hour block. It sure seemed like they filled every slot because they kept rushing me through each answer (and I’m not an excessively chatty person). However, the work I do, and what I assume would be required by the similar position I applied for, involves relationship building with strong conversational skills and the ability to empathize with donors, so this really rubbed me the wrong way. Not sure I will get an in-person interview after how rushed it all was, and not sure that I really want one after that. Thoughts?

  76. Foreign Octopus*

    Okay, something weird has unfolded in the last two days that I need help with. It’s a mixture of personal and work but since this person is my student and I have a business relationship with her, I’m dropping this into the work thread.

    I’ve booked a holiday to Poland in December (yay!) for only three days just so I can explore Warsaw and have a happy wander around and try the local food (honestly, that’s the only reason I’m going). My student is from Poland but she lives in another country at the moment. I mentioned it to her, thinking that she could give me some good tips on where to go, and what to see, and also so we could have something to discuss that lesson.

    Fast forward to this week and suddenly she tells me that she told her near retirement uncle about me (fine, whatever) and he’d be thrilled to show me around the city. Initially, I was quite excited. A free tour from a local, informed person who shares my interest in history? Get in. So far, so good.

    Then yesterday she tells me that he and his wife have extended an offer to me to stay with them while I’m in Warsaw. I politely demurred but gentle alarm bells were beginning to ring in the back of my mind. And that brings us to this morning.

    This morning I learn that the uncle is planning to take three days off from his job so that he can show me around the city and take me on a few excursions out of the city. The alarm bells suddenly sounded like klaxons in my head.

    I was anticipating maybe an afternoon and evening spent in this gentleman’s company where we had a good time, I got to learn about the history of Warsaw and Poland in general, and he got a free English lesson (fair exchange in my view). I 100% do not want to have my entire holiday (first one in six years) swallowed up by a stranger. When I travel, I like to travel independently. The whole joy of travelling for me is to have the freedom to do what I want, when I want, without any compromise. It’s why I travel alone rather than with friends.

    Normally, if this was a friend doing this, I’d shut it down without a second thought. However, because this is a student (and one of my more lucrative ones) I have no idea how to withdraw myself from the expectation that has been placed at my feet while maintaining a good relationship with her. It’s all escalated so quickly. I know I should have shut it down earlier but, honestly, I was so uncomfortable with it that I just moved straight into my planned lesson with her.

    I’m honestly thinking (dramatic, I know) to either a) cancel the holiday or b) fake an injury, tell her I can’t go, but go anyway. The uncle doesn’t know what I look like so I could be dancing naked in front of him and he wouldn’t recognise me.

    I would like to avoid the above so I’m reaching out to the wonderful people of AAM to help me find a script that will keep my business relationship but also allow me to have my independent holiday.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Fabulous*

      Definitely don’t say you’re cancelling your holiday! I think you can still shut it down without compromising your relationship with your student. You could say something like:

      “I truly appreciate your uncle’s offer to show me around the city, and under other circumstances I would jump at the chance. I apologize if I made it seem otherwise, but since it’s been so long since my last holiday, I’ve actually been looking forward to relaxing for most of the time. I have my schedule planned out pretty stringently and can allocate X amount of time for a tour, but I definitely don’t want your uncle to take off work to show me around. Can you let him know that it won’t work out this time?”

  77. rosiebyanyothername*

    Just curious, how does your office deal with solicitation calls? I’m usually manning the phones so I have to weed out the useful from the not-so-useful. We instruct people to email our general inbox. What does your office do?

    1. Fabulous*

      I think it depends on the business. I’ve been a receptionist a few times and at one of the offices, we had zero solicitation calls. The next was just a few, but we informed them that we were happy with our current services and to please remove us from their list. The last reception job I had was like 80% solicitation. It was absolutely ridiculous. There were even walk-in solicitors too! For those, I just took their information and gave it to our office/facilities manager. That’s really all I could do… it was really out of hand. So glad I was only manning the desk for a few months before handing it off to my replacement!

    2. Receptionwoes*

      I am a receptionist. I have a list of the IT vendors and office services vendors. for the most part i know the other vendors that we use. when i get solicitation calls I usually transfer them to their VM. if the person calls everyday, and my coworker keeps on rejecting the call, i ask the coworker, do you want me to remove you from the calling list? if so, thats what i tell the solicitor. This usually works. Honestly, it really depends on the person who is receiving the phone calls. Some people like for me to inform them of every call they get others like me to make a judgement call.

  78. BBBizAnalyst*

    Has anyone had experiences at work where a coworker is sort of stalking you? I have a coworker who works on a separate team that will follow me. Waits for me to leave at the same time I do, drives behind me to company events despite the fact that I may be running an errand before and haven’t stated I’m heading directly to said event. I tested it out one day and left after her and somehow she ended up walking to the garage at the same time I did. She joked that she waited for me but I don’t think she was kidding. On several occasions, her car has ended up right beside mine despite the fact that she gets in hours before me. She would have to move her car during the day to do this. I park in a particular spot and our garage has several floors. She hasn’t escalated to anything super serious. She just makes me feel very uncomfortable. What can I do? I’ve told her that I find it uncomfortable but she persists.

    1. Colette*

      How direct have you been? I think you can try one more time to, very seriously, say “I’ve noticed you wait for me when I leave, and you’ve even followed me in your car. That needs to stop now.” – no smiles, no minimizing tone, no telling her it’s OK. And then stop talking – don’t rush to fill the awkward silence or reassure her.

      But you might have to raise this, either to your management or to the police.

      (Does she follow you outside of when you leave work? Because this is really, really weird behaviour.)

    3. fposte*

      I was trying to see this as just self-doubt on her part about leaving and going places, and then I saw the parking garage thing. Whoa.

      I would loop my manager in at this point, and then assuming the manager didn’t have a different plan I would have another conversation with her. I confess that I’m deeply curious and would probably want to just bring up the fact that her car has been moved to be next to mine on the following days this week, and ask what’s up with that. Then I’d mention the behaviors been enough of a concern that I’d looped in our manager, and I’d go to Colette’s flat statements about this stopping now.

  79. No thanks*

    Eye-rolly message I got from a recruiter on LinkedIn:

    “I am currently recruiting for one of our powerhouse clients and thought you may have a twin you could recommend. This is a rapidly growing company in [CITY] who hires rock starts (sic)…This is a valuable position which is the fun part so this person will have top visibility.”

    I can totally see what the recruiter is trying to do here but the phrasing irks me. I don’t like the part about looking for “a twin”…not me specifically…just my twin. (Funny thing is, I *do* actually have a twin brother…who would probably recoil in disgust from this type of role. So…probably not the best fit!)
    And the assertion that this is a “valuable” position. I would hope this company sees all of the positions they’re actively hiring for as pretty valuable and they’re not just hiring for some throwaway role.

    Anyway, just a rant because I’m finding that recruiters are increasingly trying to be cute with me to stand out in my inbox and it really sets my teeth on edge.

      2. Julius Pepperwood*

        Sounds like this recruiter wants to break into recruiting for the powerhouse companies, but may be hindered by their inexplicable focus on twins and rock starts and more broadly, the inability to write anything coherent.

    2. Mazzy*

      Yup, I worked in teapot operations but ended up doing Teapot Director work a lot of the times in the last three years there. I’ve had a few Teapot Manager jobs come up and recruiters contact me asking if I knew anyone. Does that mean you’re interested in me or truly only in other people? It also irks me because I’m actually very qualified if not a tad qualified for the Manager role since I did the Director stuff, albeit never had the title. But you wouldn’t know that if you couldn’t talk to me and just emailed asking for my friends’ contacts, some of which are in the opposite situation, being higher job title with lower level responsibilities.

      1. No thanks*

        Right? It’s like…be direct with me. If you think my experience fits the role, then say so. It’s so awkward to put the onus back on the recruited to have to say, “Well actually, *I* would be a good fit for this.”

        And if you really are looking for my “twin” who has a similar set of responsibilities/achievements, then do your research and contact them instead – don’t waste your message contacting me or trying to social engineer your way into my contacts.

  80. Fabulous*

    I’ve had duties added to my role of quality monitoring, but I can’t seem to find the time to do them. I know it’s just a matter or re-calibrating my days, but I can’t even seem to hold to my scheduled times because other things get thrown at me last minute. How have you managed a change/addition to your daily duties?

    1. Anna Held*

      Schedule it. Put it on your calendar, don’t answer calls or email, act as though you’re out of office until that task is done. Get used to always doing it every Friday morning, the first of the month, whatever it takes for it to become a habit and get it done.

      As for managing an overcrammed schedule in general….spend some time each morning figuring out what you really need to accomplish, and focus on that. Have a couple Do Not Disturb hours built into your schedule if you can. If you still can’t manage, track your time and talk to your boss about your workload, what you could potentially offload, and what to prioritize.

  81. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

    So, I had two interviews on Monday, one with Big Tech Company that’s been trying to recruit me for a while. My car got repossessed Sunday, though, and I was so stressed out about my car that I have no idea how I did on my interviews. I got my car back, thankfully, but not until afterwards. I’ll hear back about the Big Tech Company job next week, since it was a final interview, and whether I’m moving on to the next stage of interviews with Small Tech Company around the same time. I desperately need one of these jobs, though so I really hope that I get them.

    I’m also feeling extra guilty because my current supervisor, who I deeply admire and respect, is going through a really rough personal situation right now and I know that when I do leave it’ll make her life even more stressful. I hate that the actions I have to take to ensure my own financial security are going to cause an increased burden on someone else.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I’m also searching, and am kinda thinking I’m getting close to the goal. My manager’s style is not a good match for me at all, but it’s made 100 times worse because she’s under stress. Her brother (last close relative) had cancer, rough treatment with lots of complications, and recently passed away. I understand, I sympathize, but I’m still going to leave.

  82. NoodleMara*

    This weeks incredible awkwardness: I had to drive a fired employee home.

    He drive a company vehicle and so do I and he was higher in the work food chain than me.

    I guess the COO didn’t want to hire a taxi or something???

    It was very weird

  83. ambivalent*

    What to do with a colleague who has a biblical scripture written on the outside of her cubicle. It’s just in marker, so I thought it would go away eventually but has been there for over a year. We are a very secular, liberal, large, biotech-related company in the San Francisco bay area, and this is very odd. I’ve been at my company for a decade and have never seen anything like this (nobody puts overtly political/religious stuff on their cubes). I’ve worked very tangentially with this colleague and don’t know her well. I don’t think she is going around trying to convert people or something, but I think the scriptures should be in the inside, not the outside of her cubicle. We have a bunch of non-Christians working here, and a couple of my reports are from a minority religion. Nobody’s complained to me, but because these reports are contractors, I feel like they (or others) might not feel comfortable bringing it up. I’m personally not exactly offended (I bet most of the people working here are atheists / agnostics), I just find it inappropriate, and think that this person is going to make a weird impression to people who come to her cube to discuss work with her. Because we are a science-based company, it looks particularly strange to me. We don’t often have visitors, but when we do, I also think this might make a strange impression. On the other hand, it’s only one cube, in a not super-high traffic area. So what to do? Let it slide? Talk to the person directly? I think the person is from Africa (she also has a flag hanging from the cubicle) so might not be used to American norms (I am not American either but have possibly been here longer?), so might be happy to learn this is perceived as weird, or perhaps, would be deeply offended, and I don’t really want to deal with that? I really really don’t want to have a fight over religion in the office. I don’t know the manager either, and not sure I want to ‘escalate’, or be perceived as a trouble-maker, since this cube isn’t even that close to mine. Doesn’t seem serious enough to go to HR. Should I get involved or not?

    1. Lumen*

      I think this comes back to ‘unusual vs. offensive’. In your office culture, what this employee is doing is unusual. But as you said, no one has complained, you are not offended yourself, you don’t often have visitors, and her desk is not all that visible.

      If you begin asking around to see if people are offended, it may seem like you’re trying to stir up discontent. As far as you are aware, it’s not causing a problem. It might be different if you were personally offended, or if others were expressing offense to you, but as it is, you’ll be better off leaving it be.

      It sounds like you care about how this employee feels, and how others feel, but without any information to the contrary, you need to look at any assumptions you might be making. Religious people are not necessarily anti-science (the Vatican astronomer does not believe in Creationism, even). People who practice minority religions (as well as atheists and agnostics) don’t necessarily feel oppressed or offended by seeing displays of other religions. The employee in question may have actually asked their manager if it was okay to place the saying on their cube.

      So, unless you hear directly (without going around looking for it) that someone is offended and feels like they can’t speak up, I would stay well out of it.

      1. ambivalent*

        Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I agree, it’s probably not such a big deal. Unless a lot of people are doing it, it’s unlikely to make a person from a minority religion feel marginalized. It’s definitely not ‘done’ around here, so I’m sure some other people also think it’s weird (and it might affect her professional standing) but that’s her or her manager’s job to deal with.

    2. LCL*

      Ignore it if it’s nonthreatening. Lots of people post inspirational quotes. The source could be the bible, or other holy books. If it’s about stoning people or sacrifices, etc. you should say something.

      1. ambivalent*

        It’s the bible, it’s got the chapter and verse. But it’s about love, nothing that controversial. So I agree.

        1. Lora*

          If it was Ezekiel 23:18-21, or the Song of Songs, or Psalm 137:9 I’d be like, “ummm…how about something from Matthew?”

          There’s a lot of messed up Biblical verses I wouldn’t want to see at work.

        2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          I’m not Christian and generally pretty sensitive to Christianity getting up in my space, but a quote about love would probably not make me uncomfortable. Like if it were “Love thy neighbor” (is that from the Bible?) or something similar, I wouldn’t find that offensive. What I would be offended by is something love-related that would imply that Christian love is, Idk, the best kind of love or something, or that non-Christians are undeserving of love, or anything that tied love to proselytizing.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s amazing how many quotes are from the bible. I ran through Bartlett’s Book of Quotations and I was stunned.

      I would not get involved and allow natural consequences to flow. Now if she were preaching to people that would be a whole different story in my book and I say that as a church going person.
      If you find the quote offensive personally, then by all means report it. But if it does not offend you and does not interfere with your work, then I would say this is not the hill to die on. Some things take care of themselves but we have to allow time for that process to run.

    4. Huxley*

      Be careful about saying religious people are somehow not belonging in a science-based organization. Most religious people I know do not believe in creationism. The creator of the Human Genome Project and the theoretical physicist Hugh Ross are both religious and like many find no conflict between science and religion.

    5. Observer*

      Is the quote overtly Christian, or is it more “general”. If it’s along the line of “Children, love each other” I’d ignore it as it’s not something that is problematic in any religion and I can’t imagine an atheist actually having a problem with it. On the other hand even if it’s not something incendiary like telling all non-believers where they are heading, if it’s something overtly Christian or decorated with overtly christian imagery, I could see that it might raise some eyebrows or make some people uncomfortable.

      In that case, if you have a good relationship with her you might want to bring it up with her. Not so much that people might think it’s strange – that’s not really your problem – but that it might make some people uncomfortable. If you don’t think you can bring it up with her, perhaps go to HR. You don’t want to turn this into a federal case, but you think it could make people uncomfortable, even though they may not want to kick up a fuss.

  84. Anon today*

    Federal employees–how did you deal with leave after having a baby? I came from the private sector where I had fairly generous benefits with my first baby. It’s pretty disheartening to work for the government and have zero maternity leave. I have also gotten some conflicting info from HR. My understanding was that you can take FMLA for the birth of a child for up to 12 weeks and that you could use sick time while you were on FMLA, but my HR person wasn’t so sure about that because she said you can’t use sick time for “bonding.” Aside from whatever limited sick time, obviously there’s annual leave, but I’ve only been with the government about a year so not too much annual leave accumulated. Any thoughts? What did you do?

    1. Murphy*

      I’m a state worker, so this may be different (?) but I was only allowed to use sick leave during the “period of disability”, which is 6 week for a natural birth and 8 weeks for C-section. I could still take up to 12 weeks, but everything past the 6 or 8 weeks had to be either vacation or unpaid.

      (I had about about 5 weeks of sick/annual combined, so this wasn’t really an issue for me.)

      1. Anon today*

        That makes a lot of sense actually. My last job divided the maternity leave out like that, even though they ended up paying additional time, they had it set out like disability leave, parental leave, then vacation time, then unpaid time. Sometimes the federal government has weird quirks. There is something called advanced leave, which I’m not sure is worth taking (you pay it back as you accumulate leave when you get back, which effectively means no vacation until it’s paid back, which in my case could take years).

    2. No Name Yet*

      Fellow federal employee here – yeah, it kinda sucks if you’ve been used to actual maternity benefits. I was pretty shocked to find out there was basically nothing, especially given the reputation for good benefits. But yes, as Murphy noted – you can use sick leave for the ‘confinement’ period, which is 6 weeks after vaginal delivery or 8 weeks after a c-section. And then vacation or unpaid for the rest of the 12 weeks (assuming you take the general FMLA), when it’s “bonding” time and not that anyone is ill (unless you/baby are seriously ill after those 6/8 weeks, in which case the conversation changes).

      As a side note, my understanding is that you can request donated leave from others (people can choose to donate annual leave), but you can only use that to replace the sick leave (so the 6/8 weeks), and (I *think*) you also have to have drained your full SL/AL balance – so if you will use up all of your leave balances within the 6/8 weeks, you may be able to ask about that. That may depend on your HR/administration, though – I know at one location a woman wasn’t allowed to do that (even though she ended up really ill and her ‘confinement’ period was a lot longer), but someone at another location was.

    3. Observer*

      The first 6 weeks are are most definitely medical leave appropriate – in fact that’s the standard amount of time you get disability leave as well. Any HR rep who doesn’t know this is incompetent.

  85. Savannnah*

    Boss finally told grand boss about my departure in feb- the one boss has known about since July. Grand boss flipped out and yelled at both of us about the delay in telling him and also immediately pulled in his boss and 3 other department managers. My boss was still insisting he wanted to keep it quite to our CEO until budgets are finalized (we work on a gov’t fiscal year so budgets were supposed to be finalized Sept 15th and FY2018 has already started) but was not so persuasive. He wants to hire someone between now and beginning of feb so we can overlap train but everyone around him realizes that its going to take a month to argue for a ‘double posting’ and then its the holiday craziness and I’m away for a 3 week honeymoon and not back till Jan 15th. This to me is the definition of squandering the way advanced notice I gave him back in July. News of my departure spread fast at all 4 of our campuses and I came in yesterday to about 40 frantic emails- basically finding myself in the scenario I was desperately trying to avoid. Meanwhile my boss is telling my grand boss he is in the 7 stages of mourning and they won’t find anyone like me- which is not true at all, they just need to move on it. It’s all mostly high drama and not my circus any more but and its a big but, the grand boss reports to my actual mother at our mothership campus and the 5 year in the making deliverable I’m in charge of launching in Jan is 80% of grand bosses 10 year plan deliverable.
    On the bright side I’m in Portland right now about to go to a not quite a job interview with a very well connected woman who I’m hoping will give me some leads for positions here. She aggressively contacted me through a network connection so I’m crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

  86. Victoria, Please*

    How do you know when you are doing (or giving other people) “busy work”? This could go for students doing classwork or for people on the team.

    And, for people on the team, if there’s just not enough *work* to do, is “busy work” preferable to watching Lynda.com videos?

    1. Lumen*

      I suspect I’m doing busy work when there is not a clear impact. Example: at my current role, I have to do a lot of nitty-gritty little annoying things that seem on the surface to have no purpose. However, I know that these little things make documentation more searchable for our internal and external auditors, so I know it isn’t just ‘busy work’. If I didn’t know the impact, or no one could tell me the impact, my busy work radar would ping.

      So short answer: start with ‘why’. Why am I assigning this work? What is the impact? Who benefits?

      And I don’t think busy work is ever preferable. At least give people the opportunity to use extra time to brainstorm, educate themselves, or look at process improvements. Filling every second with ‘busyness’ is pointless.

    2. Student*

      If nobody cares about the work being done – customers, bosses, other colleagues, etc. – then it is busy work. If you can’t figure out who the work benefits, it’s probably busy work.

      Busy work is a waste of everyone’s resources. Think harder about what you actually need instead, or reduce personnel, or hire cheaper personnel and let them do their own thing on dead time.

        1. Anna Held*

          Yep. Put the rationale in words for yourself — would you be persuaded? Then it’s fine, but TELL PEOPLE. Don’t assume they’ll know, and they’ll grumble less if they understand. “This is boring, but good practice — it’s like practicing scales in music.” “We require this because of X regulation.” “When this isn’t done right, X can happen.” Even “the CEO wants it this way, there will be trouble if we don’t, so just do it” works. There’s always something stupid because the boss or the software or the state wants it done that way — it’s a part of life. Might as well face it early on.

  87. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

    If the owner of two small businesses instructs business A to deposit the day’s cash income in business B’s account, just how weird is that, exactly?

    1. Long Time Lurker*

      I’m an accountant and that is kind of wierd. In a perfect world the cash sales would be deposited in company a’s account and a check written to company b out of the owners shareholder account. It’s not terribly wrong as long as both companies are wholly owned with no partners and the sales are recorded in company a by journal entry.

  88. Nen*

    Folks with sidelines – how much does your main job know about your sideline? I’m pretty secretive in both directions. Don’t want either one to feel slighted and I have the sense that my main job boss wouldn’t really like it (But probably wouldn’t ask me to stop either).

    Complicating matters is that there is some overlap in terms of industry and potential clients, though I watch out and haven’t run into it yet. (My sideline is actually just continued part time work on special projects for my old job, which I left on good terms).

    Anyway, curious about how it works for others.

    1. Lora*

      I am very curious about this too. I do consulting and am sort of in a weird position negotiating between a client who would definitely want 40 hours/week from me (but definitely stay a contractor for 6 months – so, free to pick up other clients), and someone who wants more of a full time employee sort of deal. I don’t think Potential Client /employer 2 is actually half as ready as they think they are to have someone working on this full time, and I personally have my little proprietary method for accelerating their project rather than taking shots in the dark (current state of the art) so it would maybe take more like 25 hours/week instead of 40, but that’s still sort of more than I can hack at the moment. Do I try to hire a technician part time to pick up some of the work for me, and I just do analysis? I was envisioning my side gig as more of a small project I could fit in like two nights/week and weekends, and focused more on providing materials than requiring actual brain power from me. And, I wasn’t imagining picking up this much work for another six months, which was why I was so interested in pursuing client 1. And I wasn’t planning to hire anyone for another 6 months, so I don’t have any of the paperwork or legal things drawn up, although I certainly have people willing to work for me.

    2. Arjay*

      We would have to report the sideline as a potential conflict of interest if there was any possibility of overlap. It wouldn’t definitely be a deal breaker, but not getting it cleared violates our code of conduct.

    3. Thlayli*

      My contract says I have to inform my full time job of any other paid work I do so they can ensure there are no conflicts of interest. In practice I think they wouldn’t care too much if there definitely wasn’t a conflict of interest, like if I was writing blog posts for profit about something unrelated to my industry.
      It sounds like you may be veering close to conflict of interest territory though so I would double chat your contract and any law on clinflict of interest in your industry.

    4. Katriona*

      When I had a “side” job I actually got it through what was at the time my main job, so there was no way to avoid them knowing a lot about each other. Luckily my boss at the main job was thrilled that I’d found a second job since she was only able to give me part-time hours anyway. And since both of my bosses knew each other they worked out a plan to split the cost of some modest benefits for me, which is more than I would have gotten had I been working two totally separate part-time jobs. The downside is that when one of my bosses started having some personal issues, it ended up putting me in an uncomfortable position in the other job because they were so intertwined.

  89. Anonymous in the South*

    We had our annual enrollment for benefits yesterday. The benefits company told us that beginning January 1, our company will be providing us with short-term disability. As in we don’t have to buy Aflac anymore and the company will be paying 100% of the premiums. The “catch” is that they want us to pay the tax on it, throughout the year so if we do end up needing to use it, we would get a check and the taxes would already be paid. It seems…sketchy… to me. It sounds like a good deal, but it also seems off to me. A couple of years ago they also gave us the option of paying taxes on our long-term disability, saying the same thing- pay the taxes now and you get a higher amount if you use it.

    Has anyone else run into this? If I never use either of these options, I would feel like I just threw money away. I’m already paying close to $200 in taxes for LTD and now the STD would also be around $200. That would be $400 in taxes I would pay every year for something I might not ever use. My job isn’t very risky and barring being comatose with both arms broken, I could probably come in and do my job. I’ve had 3 minor surgeries in the last few year (gallbladder removal, partial hysterectomy, wisdom teeth removed) and I was back at work in 2 weeks for the first 2 and back to work in 3 days for the wisdom teeth.

    1. Colette*

      So they want you to pay the income tax on money you haven’t received and may never receive? Or is this some other form of tax.

      Because income tax doesn’t sound legal.

      1. CAA*

        Yes, it’s legal. What they do is increase your salary by the exact amount of the premiums, then you pay for the insurance premium as an after-tax deduction.

    2. CAA*

      If you get disability payments from a policy that is purchased with money on which you were not taxed, then those payments will be taxable at your ordinary income tax rate when you receive them. If the benefits are the same amount as you would have received in salary, then you’ll pay the same amount of tax that you would have paid if you’d been working. If the benefits are less than you would have earned by working (which is likely), then the tax on them will be correspondingly less.

      If you elect to pay the taxes on the premiums then the benefits would be tax free when you receive them. Your employer includes the amount of the premium in your salary and calculates tax owed on the total, then they deduct the amount of the premium before they pay you.

      If you are single and earning up to about $50K, then it’s probably not worth paying the tax in advance because the tax received on the benefits would already be pretty low. If you earn more than $50K, then you’ll have to assess the probability of collecting on the policy. If you’re in the 25% tax bracket, then the break-even point on paying the $200 in advance is receiving $800 in benefits. (based on current law, who knows what’ll happen with the bills currently under consideration in Congress)

      1. Anonymous in the South*

        They said we would get 60% of our normal salary. I am earning less than $50k. I am currently making just over $35K before taxes.

        I understand that if I pay the tax in advance then the checks are tax free but I guess I just feel like I’m being cheated if I pay that and never use it.

        Thanks! I’ll have to give it some thought over the weekend!

        1. CAA*

          I plugged some sample numbers into Taxcaster, which is a free online tool from TurboTax. It tells me that if you are making $35K and don’t itemize deductions, then you are currently paying about $3238 in federal taxes.

          Let’s suppose you were out of work due to surgery that required a 6-week recovery. If there’s a one week waiting period you’d use a week of PTO or sick time at full pay and then you would collect 5 weeks of disability pay. If the disability pay is taxable, then your income for the year is $33,650 and your tax on that amount would be $3035. If the disability pay is not taxable (because you’ve already paid tax on the premiums), then your income is still $33,650 and your tax is $2728 plus the extra $200 you pay from your regular checks, for a total of $2928. The difference in this example is $107 for the 5-week disability. But what if you aren’t disabled at all in 2018 and instead have surgery in 2019? Now you’ve paid that $200 extra twice, so your total is $93 more in up-front taxes than the extra amount that you’d get from the insurance.

          There could be a lot more complexity in your taxes or your health situation than I know about from your posts here, but generally I don’t think it makes sense for someone at your income level to buy this insurance with after-tax money. The exception would be if you’re pregnant and the due date is next year, or if you already know you need surgery that’s going to keep you out of work for a while.

          1. Wheezy Weasel*

            +1 on this calculation. I’ve heard of paying for tax upfront on *long term* disability as you said, and that has the potential for huge money in your favor. Paying upfront tax on a short term policy that likely has a 15 day waiting period and a 90 day limit wouldn’t be enticing to me either, unless my salary was north of 100k a year or other circumstances as CAA mentioned.

            1. Anonymous in the South*

              Thanks! I thought it sounded a little off and I knew some of the contributors here would have good, understandable answers

          2. Anonymous in the South*

            Thank you! I asked similar questions to our HR benefits person and was told they would “get back to me” but they haven’t.

  90. Anon for job seeking question*

    I look like a job hopper!

    So. My company (lawyer at a law firm) is having trouble right now – as in, it is wobbling so hard to may just be out of business soon. It’s a very small place, we are doing great work, have lots of happy clients – but one partner is having some life crises that has thrown the company into a certain amount of chaos. So it really, really seems wise to start looking for a job now.

    But – I have been here not quite two years. I was out of the workforce before that with a (resolved) health issue, and before that was at two different places over the course of 3 years.

    So my timeline looks like:
    Start working – 2 years at law firm 1
    Move to Government Job and stay for 1 year
    3 years time off because of Big Health Issue
    2 years at new law firm

    Any tips for not minimizing the appearance that I am flaky?

    1. JY*

      Spending two years at a firm and then leaving doesn’t sound flaky at all to me, especially at a law firm where turnover rates are high. I️ don’t think you need to worry!

  91. university ref/instruct librarian anon*

    I have an early-career question/dilemma.

    Background info: I graduated with my library degree in May 2016 after working as a library GA for two years (reference, bibliographic instruction and workshops, libguides, other projects as assigned at a very, very large university library), and started a job at an academic library in January 2017. The position is short-term, meant specifically for newly-graduated librarians and will end in May 2018 with no chance of renewal. I was going to start seriously applying for jobs in January, but a position that is a very good fit (similar job description at a similarly-sized main campus) in a city I would very much like to live in has just opened up.

    Questions:
    -Who should I have as references? I have two very good potential references plus my supervisor (who due to very a flat org chart I don’t communicate with frequently) at my current position, but I want to know if I should include a reference from my GA position. Do I need to, or would three references from my current job work?

    -Do I mention in my cover letter that my current position is short term so it doesn’t look like I’m job hopping? If yes, should I word it something along the lines of “appointment ends with no renewal in May 2018”?

    -When/if they ask why I want this position, in addition to talking about all the career and mission-related reasons I want this job, my best friend in all the world, whom I love dearly and miss desperately, lives in their city. Would mentioning that help or hurt me?

    Thanks, all!

    1. DuckDuckGoose*

      I would include at least one person that isn’t from your current position, you’re newly graduated so having a reference from a GAship won’t be out of place.

      Yes, note that the position is temporary. I’d put this in your current title on the resume like “temporary librarian” or “recent MLIS graduate fellow” – whatever terminology your employer used to hire you, basically. Personally I’d just note that the position ends in May 2018, I’d leave out the “with no renewal” part. It leaves open the interpretation that it could have been renewed to me, and then I’d wonder why not.

      As far as the friend part, I’d leave it at “I have strong friend and family connections in this city that factors into my decision.” Definitely mention the pros of the position and university first.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Answers: (My advice based on the library hiring I have done… Your mileage will vary… )
      – You need at least two managers on your references. Reaching back to your GA days is totally appropriate. If your current supervisor can’t speak to your skills, find a supervisor who can rave about how wondrous you are. Good reference checkers are going to ask tough questions, so chose people who really know you.

      – You can put this in your cover letter, but you can also put it on your resume. Something like (Contract job) or (Temporary Position) are both perfectly normal. You can also mention in on your cover letter if you like. You may want to put in where you speak about why you are seeking a new job. It can also come up in the interview.

      – I don’t think it would help you or hurt you. I wouldn’t put your friend in a cover letter, but I might say something like, “Because I have deep ties to () I am especially excited at the opertunity to work in with () in ().” Or something like that.

      Good luck!

      1. university ref/instruct librarian anon*

        Thank you!
        – I guess my issue is that I have two great colleague references whom I work with a lot, and then my library has a very flat org chart, so the supervisor of every librarian is our dean. That fills up my three references without leaving room for my GA supervisor (which changed halfway through my time there as my first supervisor moved away).

        -That was about what I was thinking. My position title has “resident” in the name so hopefully that makes it obvious that its a temporary position.

        -Emphasizing the connections I have to the city seems like a good idea, thanks!

  92. Wrong Color Collar*

    I currently work as a “professional” but come from a blue-collar family/neighborhood. I like my job and I get along with OK with my colleagues but don’t exactly have much in common with them, who are largely middle-class and have a completely different childhood/lifestyle from mine. I also have an accent commonly associated with “uneducated” people, which I don’t dislike in itself but does make me stand out like a sore thumb when in a certain group of people.

    On the other hand, I get along great with the janitors, the cafeteria ladies, and the warehouse/maintenance people–the sort of people I would be friends with outside of work. Now, let’s say I do want to move up the ladder with this company. If I openly socialize with the people I do enjoy talking to, will it hurt my chances to be promoted? Do I need to treat friendship in this respect as carefully as as it’s expected with office romance?

    1. LCL*

      If you want to move up the ladder at this company, keeping your social ties with the people who actually do the work are invaluable. The most successful managers here came up through the ranks and continue to maintain some ties. Avoid serious drinking events with them, but you can certainly show up and have a drink. Non-drinking events are fine. Unfortunately as you rise the invitations will become few and far between.

      If you are in the dating stage of life things become much more complicated.

    2. Thlayli*

      I think it’s not that you need to cut back on friendship with the “lower level” employees it’s more that you should try to be friendly with the “upper level” employees.
      It’s good to have buddies at different levels.

    3. Traveling Teacher*

      I think that it’s a strong sign of good character if you’re friendly/friends with the janitors, et al. There might be a few people who would be snobbish about it, but those people aren’t worth your time–a good sign of whose character not to trust, in fact!

      And, I second what Thylali says about being friends/friendly with people on all levels. Surely there are at least one or two people higher up on the ladder who are worth being friends with, as well.

  93. Pinkie*

    I was hoping to get some outside perspective on a situation I’m in. My family has been hit by several illnesses recently, which has taken its toll on our sick leave balance. The finale involved me getting viral pink eye in one eye, then days later in the other eye. My boss has made it crystal clear in the past that she does not want me coming in to work when I have pink eye but I am allowed to work from home since I’m not sick in bed. The default is that I need to be in the office, at my desk working but situations like this are acceptable and have been done in the past. The issue is that while previously I had bacterial pink eye that was fixable by 24 hours with antibacterial eye drops, this time I have viral pink eye which isn’t treatable. I just have to ride it out for 4-7 days (or more, depending on which source I look at online). I got it in both eyes but not at the same time, so the clock basically reset and I will be working from home for possibly a week and a half instead of just a day or two like previous pink eye infections.

    My boss’s biggest issue with this is that she has had other reports asking her about the possibility of working from home but she’s had to tell them that it isn’t an option 99% of the time. I believe that myself and one other of her employees (who is also allowed to work from home the way I am) are the only salaried ones, everyone else is hourly. When I let my boss know my situation she grudgingly allowed me to continue working from home on the condition that I don’t advertise to my team mates that I’m working from home. My work doesn’t over lap their too much but they have to walk past my desk to get to anywhere else in our building so it’s really obvious that I’m not there. If they happen to see in on the intra-office chat, it’s not a huge leap to assume I’m working from home.

    For my part, I’m dying to get back to my regular routine of working in an office. Accessing files takes just a little bit longer and I’m just not suited to working from home personality-wise. I like having work at work and home at home. I will not be upselling the experience at all when I return.

    1) Is my boss being reasonable by asking me to not advertise that I’m working from home? As in, aside from not chatting everyone and saying “Hey, I’m at home suckers!!” what can she realistically expect of me? (The cabin fever may be making my overly sensitive on this point.)
    2) Any advice for smoothing things out when I can go back in to the office? I’m guaranteed to get “Hey, you’re back!” comments.

    1. Murphy*

      I think it’s silly to hide that you’re working from home. If you’re visibly not at the office, people will assume that you’re unavailable, which isn’t true if you’re actually working! They just need a clear work from home policy that they can explain to other workers. You were allowed to work from home, not as a special privilege, but in the interest of not giving everyone in the office pink eye!

      I think you can just say that you were sick and you’re happy to be better and back in the office, so no one thinks you were milking your illness to stay home.

      1. Arielle*

        Yeah, our office is pretty old-fashioned about working from home but it’s approved under extreme circumstances. We recently had a coworker work from home for a couple of days after he got a call from the health department saying he had been exposed to pertussis. He felt perfectly fine and it would have been silly to make him take sick time for it.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      I think it is ridiculous. Why can’t she say that it is only an option in rare circumstances but she allowed it this time because you are salaried and contagious?

    3. LizB*

      It sounds like you’re already “not advertising” working from home? I think it’s reasonable for your boss to ask you to not, for example, send an office-wide email about that fact, but as you’ve said, people are going to put two and two together. If your boss gets annoyed about that, she’s unreasonable. It’s her job to manage her other reports’ expectations, not yours. If she doesn’t want hourly people asking to WFH, she needs to tell them that it’s not possible for hourly workers and that they should stop asking. There shouldn’t be anything to smooth over when you get back, honestly — the best response to “Hey, you’re back!” would be “Yes, and thank goodness, I was going stir-crazy” or “Yes, FINALLY, viral pinkeye is the worst” and a subject change to work topics.

    4. cornflower blue*

      I’m also expected to hide working from home, so people whose jobs don’t work that way don’t get jealous and complain. It’s stupid. We use a lot of language like “working offsite” to muddy the issue, since there are also days I am involved with a vendor at alternate locations.

      This came to a head when nobody knew where I was during a fire drill, and there was a crackdown on being explicit about employee location at all times. It isn’t really working, so I expect more drama in the future.

    5. Observer*

      Your best bet is to kind of emphasize how glad you are to be back in the office and how crazy it was that you HAD to work at home when people comment. “Boss would have been REALLY upset if I infected everyone with pink eye, you know.”

  94. Ms Sessional*

    I teach sessionally at the local university. I love my students, my coworkers, the job…I don’t love the pay. I’ve been at it for about four years. A mat-leave position popped up in a business I love. It’s for ten months. I applied and am going to be interviewed shortly (next week). It’s full time, though do to the nature of the work, there will be weird hours–lots of evening and weekend events which will be balanced out with time in lieu.

    I’m scheduled to teach two classes next semester (two afternoons). If I’m offered the job, I’d like to keep both as the one I’m interviewing for is only for a short term. I don’t want to break my ties with the university (once you’re out, you’re out, plus pulling out of a class so close to the start of term would be bad form). I believe that I could manage it with time in lieu and make up time after the semester is over.

    Do I bring this up in the interview? I know generally you’re not to bring up scheduling issues in the interview (been reading the archives!) but I feel that if I don’t I’d be purposely misleading them.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Is the job you are interviewing for part time or full time? I think that’s a factor here.

      But in general, I would wait until you have an offer in hand. I think the real question to ask yourself is, “Would you quit your university position to take this job?” If the answer is No, than you may need to consider bringing it up earlier.

      1. Ms Sessional*

        The job I’m interviewing for is full-time, but not with standard hours. I wouldn’t pull out of the classes I’m slated to teach next semester because I don’t want to burn that bridge as this new job is only for ten months, but could lead to other things, especially if person on mat leave decides not to return.

  95. Friday Sucks*

    Has anyone else ever had to lay off an employee who’s only been there for 3-4 months? It’s a last-in/first-out situation and not this person’s fault at all (same with the employees on other teams who will be affected), plus I’m on orders from the powers-that-be, but I feel horrendous. Anything I can do to help this person?

    2. Friday is here again!*

      Make sure they realize it’s not about their performance (if that’s true of course)

    3. Observer*

      Make it clear that it was about financials, not their performance. Promise a good reference. And be calm and professional – the last thing your employee needs is to have to comfort you or manage your emotions.

  96. Amonynous*

    Hi!

    What can I do about having to sit next to someone at work who breathes really heavily and loudly? I have multiple chronic illnesses and am very sensitive to sound so I find it’s annoying me quite a bit.

    I can wear headphones but it’s not practical for me to wear them all day, every day and sometimes I’m not able to anyway. They hurt my ears after a while!

    To my knowledge, this person has never mentioned allergies except hayfever, and I always cut her some slack when the pollen count is high as I know she can’t help being snuffly. She wears earphones so I think she just isn’t aware that she is impersonating Darth Vader at her desk, complete with one whistling nostril.

    Thanks!

      1. Amonynous*

        Moving desks isn’t an option at the moment. I think it’s difficult as we’re *so* close together. We’re open plan and our desks are less than a metre wide, right next to each other. Slightly too close for comfort!

        I wanted to ask here as I know AAM often writes that when we need something to be resolved, we should just speak up about it. I suppose this isn’t one of those cases. Thank you both for replying.

    3. WellRed*

      This is tricky. As Colette says, you can’t ask people to breathe differently, but, if you think there’s any possibilty she could make a minor change I wonder if you coukd phrase it a “this is really awkward, but…” I currently have a nagging cough and sniffles, and need to remind myself ocassionally that other people have the right to peace and quiet. I mean, I can’t fix all of it, but I do my best to minimize.

      1. Observer*

        What kind of “minor change” could someone make that would miraculously make them stop breathing heavily?

  97. zinemin*

    My partner and I are in an awkward situation. We both have recently changed field and started working as specialist teapot design teachers at the same college. Now the college announced they are going to hire 1-2 people into full positions (these are rare positions in our city, with lots of benefits, job security etc.). We are competing with each other and with one additional internal candidate for this position. So we’re three internal candidates for 1-2 open positions. External candidates can also apply.

    Whoever does not get the position has to leave the college. As it is the case in colleges here, the entire very drawn-out, complex hiring process will take about 6 months in total, with frequent visits to our teapot design lessons, and all 3 of us will probably be pretty stressed out over a long period, while interacting with each other daily.

    I’m dreading the entire thing and almost consider not applying, although I do need to find a position like this. I would find the situation already stressful if we were three independent candidates, but the fact that we are also a couple competing with a more senior teacher makes it a lot weirder. Does anyone have any advice for me? For example, should my partner or me drop out of the race? How should we handle the awkwardness of the situation?

    The principal of the school thinks it is great and healthy for them to have competition, but something about this situation feels strange to me. Or am I wrong to think so?

    1. Artemesia*

      If one of you dropped out it wouldn’t necessarily go to the other. This is the awkwardness of people in the same very limited profession. I’d go for it; make discussion at home about anything else; be actively planning Plan B and C. Plan B for when one of you gets it and the other doesn’t and Plan C for when neither of you get it.

      What other options can the person who doesn’t succeed pursue so you can live in the same area? Where might the two of you go if neither is successful. If possible be applying for similar positions locally and elsewhere rather than waiting. It is at least possible that one or both might find an even better position somewhere else. Don’t wait around for them to choose but be taking your own future in hand.

      The confidence that comes from having a strategy for moving on or coping will also make you stronger competitors for the current position. Being in a dithering panic and showing ‘weakness’ may well torpedo your chances where you are.

    2. Thlayli*

      I think you should both apply but also both start looking externally too. Since the third competitor is more senior there’s a pretty good chance that at least one of you will be unemployed in a few months so looking externally is a good idea. If one of you gets another job they can then drop out of the running for this one.

  98. disappointed*

    I found out this week that I’m not up for partner this year. It wasn’t too much of a surprise but I’m still disappointed- I was told when I joined the firm last year that they’d put me up after 2 years. And they couldn’t give me a good reason why not other than “you need to bring in more business. We’re happy with your trajectory, it just needs to be…more up.” We have a new managing partner who came in right as comp and promotion decisions were being made, and she seemed really committed to quantifying what exactly I need to next year, but it was still disheartening. My receipts have increased 3x over last year, and I came in with literally no business whatsoever. I’m trying not to question whether they really intend to promote me- one of the reasons I joined the firm is because I believed that they are straight shooters, but the thought does cross my mind, thanks to my other industry experiences.

    I didn’t help myself by not having these discussions sooner in the year as well, but the firm has been in a state of transition all year, and it never seemed like the right time.

    I’m additionally concerned about next year- some of the moves Congress is making may potentially torpedo my work. (Not trying to be political here- just commenting in a general sense about the potential impact of some of the pending legislation on my work.) Sigh.

    1. Infinity Anon*

      You should talk to them again and ask for concrete numbers that they want you to hit. “More” is way to vague. This can help you to determine if what they are asking for is reasonable and also give you the ability to see if they are dealing fairly with you in the future when you meet those numbers.

      1. disappointed*

        Yes, that meting is already on the calendar. I will present my numbers more specifically and then both I and management will be in a position to discuss specifics. I think the new managing partner will be much more likely to give me concrete metrics, which is a good thing. There’s still an element of “we look at everyone holistically” that I’d be dealing with, but those are fit and personality type assessments, and aren’t as worrisome to me.

  99. Cancer Struggler*

    If you’re dying but not dysfunctional, when do you stop working?

    I’ve been fighting cancer for over a year now and have been told that I’m incurable. But there’s no definite time window as to how long I have left. Even though I’m not going to get better, I’m not bedridden – my physical limitations don’t stop me from actually doing my job. On the other hand, I think my job is morally indefensible. Let’s say I am an extreme left winger working in the military industrial complex. When I thought I’d live a longer life, there was value in what I’m learning at this job, but now that the next career step seems unlikely, I just don’t like what I do. But I don’t know how long I have left – it could be three months, it could be two years. If it’s on the longer end, it’s silly to give up my excellent health insurance and ability to pay rent. But if it’s not, I think I’m going to regret spending so much time doing what I find repulsive. Any ideas?

    1. Infinity Anon*

      Is there another job you could get to make sure you can keep paying the bills? That might be your best option at this point.

      1. Cancer Struggler*

        Unfortunately, I still have about a year left on my employment contract. They are very understanding about my situation and would let me go with no issue if I️ told them it was time for me to stop working, but i think it wouldn’t go as well if i quit so that I could find another job.

      1. Cancer Struggler*

        I’m sure i could, but if I’m not bringing in any income by doing that, i don’t see the point. Or am i missing something in your comment?

    3. Book Lover*

      I am so sorry about your diagnosis. If you are miserable going in to work every day and don’t like the people around you, I think job searching makes sense. Otherwise, you should appreciate your insurance and benefits and consider that they are doing some good in the world by providing you with these things. Also find out what your options are for short and long term disability when the time comes.

      1. Cancer Struggler*

        Thank you. Actually my coworkers are wonderful; it’s the substance of the work that I don’t like. So I appreciate your advice about looking for the positives.

        1. Book Lover*

          You’re welcome! In that case, I think you should stay where you are and enjoy your coworkers and your benefits.

    4. Teal Green*

      Do you have access to long-term disability through your job? Any chance of your doctor being able to write you off work and on to disability now or in the near future? I know you said your physical limitations don’t stop you from doing the job but maybe the mental or emotional strain of fighting cancer on top of the physical limitations would qualify you.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I’m so sorry. I’d weight the excellent health insurance and ability to pay rent pretty heavily in your position, I think, assuming you are still pursuing treatment and don’t have anywhere else to live. So then you can consider that you are taking everything you can out of your employer — maybe that helps the moral calculation?

    6. Kathenus*

      I am so very sorry about your situation. My advice would be to consider your quality of life and make decisions based upon that. From the information in your letter, there are two QOL aspects to consider – 1) income/insurance, and 2) contentment/happiness with the work. It seems that number 1 is critical right now, so therefore at least for the moment the priority over number 2. So agree with others that looking for another position that would give you the income/insurance you need would be the most important focus now. If you get any opportunities for other jobs that give you the income/insurance you need for security, you can then bring in number 2 and whether that job would give you more happiness/contentment versus the one you’re in now. I wish you the very best.

    7. Lora*

      I think about this often – have stupid genetics which mean I will likely have cancer for a third / fourth / fifth time in the future and shouldn’t expect a particularly long life. I’m OK with that actually, but it does mean I value my time very differently from other people.

      I’ve concluded that I won’t let anyone waste my time and won’t spend any more than contract work doing something I don’t love. Due to my field and education and experience, I can take contract work to pay the bills and spend time doing what I really love either outside of the contract job or as a side gig.

      If contracting or consulting is a viable option for you, it will give you much more control over what type of work you take on and when, and whether you are able to do a long term project or short term. You can take a series of short term projects with breaks to travel or whatever you want to do in between and that’s considered perfectly fine. And some consulting projects can be work from home at least some of the time, which is a great help when you’re too antsy to be in bed sick but not feeling up to the slog of commuting and being in and out of the bathroom at work or whatever (first round of cancer, I couldn’t be more than 50 feet from a toilet at any given time for more than 20 minutes, but I could still, you know, write reports and stuff). Plus you’ll have the freedom to blog or write a book or whatever else you want to do. There are companies like Accenture that will cover your salary and benefits but you are working on specific projects with a beginning and end. Or you can switch between projects to some extent.

    8. Anono-me*

      I would suggest meeting with at least two separate financial advisors to see what your financial situation is. If/when you have enough for a reasonably comfortable life, early retirement and doing what makes you happy and proud seems like a good choice to me.

      Wishing you the best.

  100. Lalaroo*

    I need advice on whether I should take any action after leaving my current position. I started job searching because my boss is bullying/abusive, and now I start my new position in a week. I have two things I can do, either separately or in combination, but I don’t know if I should do either:
    1. File a complaint with HR over workplace bullying, which is prohibited by law where I am. I honestly have no idea how that complaint would go – I feel like I have good evidence, and there are witnesses and others that have been treated the same way, but the witnesses may not back me up since they still work there.
    2. Write a letter to the board that manages this place. My bully is the top person, but there is a board above that they report to. This place has very high turnover that is unusual and a focus of concern for the board. My bully has been telling them that the turnover is due to salaries being low, but this is not the case. I know firsthand that the bully’s behavior has led to the exit of three people, and the dysfunctional environment fostered by the bully has led to the departure of at least four more. Two others are seriously looking due to the bully’s behavior. We’re a small entity, only about 28 people, so turnover in my 18 months has been about 30%. The bully is also incompetent. This past week I found some pretty good evidence of that, and I have other evidence that makes a fair case, although honestly that evidence would not have been enough on its own. We’re a non-profit-type org, so it upsets me to think that the org is being so damaged by the bully. The board is volunteer and they all have regular jobs, so they’re not able to monitor the day-to-day in a way that would catch this.

    What should I do? 1? 2? Both? Neither? She will come back at me for sure, and I have had problems with tardiness which makes me a less-than-flawless messenger.

    2. soupmonger*

      Definitely report this to the board; I’d be more inclined to do this than take the HR route. Write to the board and present them with a dispassionate description of what happened to you and then tell them the reasons for the high turnover of staff. Remember the board may choose to do nothing though. Then move on and put it behind you. Good luck.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      0. Make sure you have collected enough evidence. Save emails, texts, documents. If you are in a state that allows one-party recording of conversations, you might want to record some of the bullying. Witnesses are questionable if they can’t be counted on or believed.

  101. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    More of a vent than a specific question, though if anyone has any similar advice or stories to tell they’d be absolutely appreciated.

    I graduated into the recession and had a really hard time getting anywhere with my career. I went from one toxic situation to another, but finally did seem to pull myself out of that swamp. But still… it feels like every job I move into I miss some huge (less huge in more recent positions) red flags. Its just every red flag is different than the ones before.

    On the plus side, I now have a list of several red flags (one or more from each of my past jobs) to look out for and feel pretty confident in my ability to screen for, but I feel like despite pouring through the AAM archives I’m just not very good at spotting red flags until after I’ve personally experienced it. Is this normal? Or is it truly me? Maybe some of these are not actually red flags – maybe I’m just mistaking normal job irritants as red flags? I know this probably can not be commented on without details, but does anyone else feel this way?

    1. Squeeble*

      I think it’s true that you often can’t see dysfunction until you’re experiencing it yourself. Also very possible that you’re mistaking annoyances for red flags, but like you say, it’s hard to tell for sure without examples.

  102. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    General consensus for UK resume advice online (including some comments on AAM) is that I should put my references right there on my resume. Is this correct? Also, if my references are international, is there any chance they’ll actually be contacted, or is it basically seen the same as not having references at all/will I just be passed over for someone with local references?

    (Not that I’ve found any jobs I can apply to yet, but hopefully I will eventually.)

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        Hm, good to know–I’d really rather not put my references on there if I can avoid it. I’m not really looking at field-specific advice here, just general blogs and templates and stuff. I’m studying LIS but open to admin assistant-type work, data entry-type work, and although retail/customer service would be difficult I’m open to that too, and even call centers if there are any around.

    2. caledonia*

      TBH I haven’t had a CV only application in a really, really long time. Most jobs are advertised online and combine form filling sections and then uploading your CV. There is a section for references.

      I’ve worked in libraries (for the local council) and admin for the last 7 years.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I worked for a company that would let you sell a week back once you hit the cut off. This would put a weeks pay in your pocket and you would accrue five more days as you went along. Maybe the company would be interested in something like that?

  103. LizB*

    At my workplace, PTO accrues until you reach a fairly high cap; it doesn’t expire, but once you’re at your cap, you don’t accrue PTO until you use some. I have one direct report who’s starting to get close to her cap, so I’ve been encouraging her to take some days off, but she says she doesn’t have anywhere to go or anything to do so there’s no point. She’s not saving up days for a big trip, she doesn’t have any health conditions where she’d need to have a lot of time banked, my workplace doesn’t pay out PTO until you hit a certain tenure so that’s not a motivation for her to save it. She’s new to the workforce and very dedicated. I don’t know how much to push her on this.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should tell her it isn’t really about going anywhere or doing anything. It’s about resting and taking a break. I’m sure if you look up studies, you’ll see some supporting that a good rest actually makes workers more productive and happier. She could honestly just sit at home and watch Netflix for a few days.

      1. LizB*

        I’ve tried that line of argument. She’s a VERY extroverted and social person, and is good friends with her coworkers, so not being at work for a day means she gets less positive social interaction; I suggested hanging out on the couch with popcorn and Netflix, but she made it very clear she’d find that totally boring. Maybe I’ll suggest volunteering somewhere where she’ll get to chat with people…

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, I think that’s your call as manager. You could either go with “You must use this vacation, and you figure out what to do with it” or “Okay. Just have the accrual max out and lose days. Your loss.”

    2. fposte*

      We lose PTO all the time at my workplace that way, and it’s just not a thing that gets worried about; it’s just a technical loss, not a real one. So if that’s how things are for your staffer, I wouldn’t sweat it.

      However, I would make sure before you let it go that that 1) you set a good example here; 2) workload coverage isn’t what’s stopping her (sometimes there’s no way around that, but that’s what stops me most of the time); and 3) that you frame it as part of her compensation and not just a day off.

      1. LizB*

        Good advice on what to consider. Thinking out loud here, 1) I take random days or long weekends pretty frequently, took a couple week-long vacations this summer, and always take PTO if I’m sick, so I think I’m setting a pretty good example. 2) Workload isn’t an issue right now, but I will keep at eye on it in the future. 3) I can try this! She has been talking lately about various adulting things she needs to take care of, so I could try saying that our workplace will pay for her to take the time to address those things. Maybe that would resonate.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      You don’t need to push her. Simply let her know the rules, and she can decide if she is ok with losing the vacation. Not your problem.

  104. nep*

    I know there have been discussions on this site in the past about ratio of applications to interviews/offers. I’d be interested in a refresher on that from anyone who’d care to comment. How many jobs did you apply for and how many turned into interviews and/or offers?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s kind of changed over the course of my career. In the beginning, I was applying to maybe 20-30 jobs and then hearing back from 2-3 and getting 1 offer. In recent years, when I’ve searched, I apply to maybe 5-6 jobs, get 3-4 interviews, and then 1 offer. Unfortunately, I’ve never been in a situation in which I’m juggling multiple offers, but fortunately I have lucked out in getting some good gigs.

    2. nep*

      (I know the ratio will depend on whether people apply to just about everything out there, or to only a handful of jobs that very closely match skills/background. I’m doing the latter, for now.)

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Changed field last year. Applied to about 12 jobs, got three interviews and only interviewed for one as I got the first job I applied for and that I most wanted. I strongly suspect this isn’t normal and I just got lucky.

    4. Turkletina*

      Oh boy. I was unemployed for almost a year. I’d estimate 200 applications, 10 interviews, 1 offer.

      I applied for a *lot* of different positions, mostly in higher ed, tech, and non-profits. I had just finished a PhD program and had basically zero relevant work experience but a lot of skills.

  105. Candy*

    I have a coworker who is incredibly lazy and complains about everything. Her most common refrain is “I would do [task that is totally a part of her job description and she should be doing anyway] if I was paid more.” She says this all the time, about everything. Every day I hear, “We should be paid more”

    Our pay is fine, btw. We get approx $1 more/hr than the average pay for our position in our country.

    Well, yesterday we all got an email from HR saying everyone is receiving a pay increase next year. We’ll be getting about an extra $100/month. So I’m like, “hey! This is good news! You’re finally going to be paid more”

    Her response was to ask if everyone was getting the raise and to then complain that she’ll still be paid less than those who do completely different work in a completely different department with completely different qualifications and skills.

    Some people are just never happy.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I hate it when people are like that. Every now and then you want to let off a little steam, but there are some complainers who will complain no matter what. And, yes, even though discrimination and unequal pay exists (doesn’t sound as if that’s what your co-worker’s complaining about, though) almost everybody would like to be paid more. Your choices are usually to find a new job, ask for a raise, or deal with it. Since she just got a raise, that leaves only two other options.

    2. nep*

      Wow she sounds dreadful. And she sounds as if she does not give a damn about how co-workers might assess her down the line. Attitude is HUGE. She would get a huge thumbs down from me, no matter how she performs her job.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Sounds like she is happy. Except she’s happy with having something to moan about as she clearly enjoys complaining.

  106. consultant*

    I wrote here in last months several times about being desperate as I couldn’t find a new job for really a long time, after sending about 150 applications.

    I started a new job last week. After accepting the offer but before starting I had plenty of doubts whether the position wasn’t too easy and I wasn’t too experienced for it.

    I’m happy to say that’s not the case. I work and have the same obligations as people with twice as much experience as me, including management experience, which I don’t have yet. Also, I have plenty to do from day one. I feel I learned more in this week than in a year on my last job. The expectation is I will take the ownership for plenty of processes in several fields, whereas I only have some, limited experience in 1 or 2. The pace is super fast too. And I feel already now my initiative is welcome. Basically, I feel the job offers me plenty of opportunities – if I want to brush up on my skills in several different areas, I will probably be able to do so.

    I’m still not that happy about the salary (my expectation was 20% more than the offer), but I feel I can learn really a lot here and very quickly. Hopefully, if I don’t get promoted in 1-2 years, this will enable me to get a super job afterwards.

    (I really hope I won’t change my opinion about the job soon ;).

  107. Tommy*

    Awkward situation, coworker who covers me for lunch became upset that I had had my heater on all morning. so when he got here at lunch my desk was warm. he started saying all sorts of comments and he grabbed a box and started fanning the area. i asked him to stop because our supervisor would see us and question us. he said then dont have it on. without thinking i told him, why do you have an attitude and i walked away. it was all so sudden. i heard him scream something at me but im not sure what. the rest of the week went pretty awkward we havent addressed the situation at all. i know i shouldnt have said what i said, but it was out of frustration. its a daily ordeal having to deal with people not wanting to cover you for lunch, to use the RR, to leave early. end rant :)

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      That sounds hard but I did wonder why you had a problem with him fanning away the heat? I’d have had to do the same – I’m always too hot compared to everyone else.

      1. Tommy*

        the problem was that we arent supposed to have the heater because the building doesnt allow it. most people do as long as you turn it off and unplug it at night. since my boss was walking by i didnt want him to see because he was going to wonder what was going on. thats why i asked him not to and he replied, well you shouldnt have it on. I know i shouldnt, but its my desk and with all the issues i have with coverage, i had enough of them telling me how to act.

        1. Amtelope*

          You’re not supposed to have the heater on (probably for safety/fire code reasons), and you have clear evidence that having it on is bothering at least one of your co-workers. You’re in the wrong here. I’m sorry it’s hard for you to get coverage, and I think your company should work out some better solution for that, but if the heater is against the rules AND annoying the people who cover for you, the heater needs to go.

    2. fposte*

      It’s so frustrating being stuck at a position where you only get sprung if somebody relieves you if your work puts it on you to ask like you’re asking for favors. That really stinks.

      Unfortunately, as you know, you took out your frustration in the wrong direction–now this person is even less likely to cover for you. Can you work with your boss to propose a regular rota for coverage for you so that you’re not begging but just getting people to stick to the schedule?

  108. PizzaParty*

    I’m in over my head at my new job. It was a huge step up and I felt confident I could do it – a lot of what they originally asked of me were things I have a lot of experience with. But a lot of their “high priority projects” they want me starting with are way outside my area (think, hired for HR and they want me to redesign their website or something). A lot of my tasks are outside of my area of focus for the industry and it’s making me incredibly nervous. They’ve been kind and patient about knowing I have an adjustment period, but they’ve also fired a lot of people over the years for not “meeting their standards” (something I didn’t discover until after I accepted the job.)

    But I’m constantly terrified that Im not doing enough or not doing well enough. I don’t have enough work to really keep me busy all day every day so I end up doing some tedious busy work sometimes to look busy. I’ve only been at the job for 3 months. I feel like I’m not working up to my potential and it makes me feel guilty and incompetent. It’s really hard to stay motivated because I feel so overwhelmed. I’m the only person in my department and no one else here understands really what I do so I spend a lot of time feeling lost and have almost no resources.

    How do I approach this with my boss? I’m really afraid if I admit that they want me to do things I’m not trained or experienced in they’ll let me go and hire someone else. I’m afraid they may let me go anyway for not doing enough, because I’m moving so slowly at getting anything done right now. Do I skip trying to talk to them and just hunt for a new job?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      From several angles it looks like you are afraid of being fired. I would seriously consider pushing to save the job and if I got fired in the process I probably would have gotten fired anyway. At least my take away would be I pulled out all the stops and tried.
      So what would this look like? Yeah, go in and talk to the boss. Explain that you thought you would be doing x, y and z, now you see A, B and C are added to the mix, and you are not up to speed on the latter. Ask him what you should do here.
      I would also try to get a copy of the job description so I could see how many more surprises were in store for me.

      You know, it’s so easy to picture being fired, your worst case scenario might be that the two of you work out a time line for you to leave. Or it could be that the boss did not realize you were not up to speed on these things and does not care that you can’t do them. Maybe he will pull that off of you and give you other stuff that is fine.

      Give him a chance to remedy before you give up. I am saying this because you are saying everyone is nice. If it were a toxic place, my answer would be different.

  109. Inky*

    Any suggestions on dealing with the stress of working at a small business that might be closing in the next six months?

    Long story short, new owners took over in Jan and had no idea what they were getting into, and are now panicking because they’re losing so much money. As the manager, I feel like I have responsibility for this/need to try and fix it, but at the same time, we’re currently making more than we did last year in sales, and I’ve already cut down hours and coverage and inventory as much as I can and still have the store run. I feel like at this point there’s not a lot more *I* can do, that the traffic just isn’t there. But they keep coming to me and telling me all about just how much money we’re in the hole and how things I have no control over (rent, advertisement, etc) are costing, and how we can’t keep going this way. It’s massively stressing me out because I think I should do something, but there’s nothing I can do. Not knowing if I’ll have a job is a few months is messing with my head and making me put my whole life on pause – I’m holding of on moving because what if I can’t afford the new place if I lose my job, as well as a host of other things.

    Is there any way to say something about not needing to know every detail of their financial woes when I can’t affect it, or suggestions on how to deal with this level of stress?

    1. Manders*

      Honestly, if you think there’s a good chance the business will be closing soon, it’s a good idea to start job hunting. I don’t think there’s a way to totally eliminate the stress of not knowing whether or not your job will be around in a year, and even if there were a magic button you could press to instantly become stress-free, I’m not sure it would do you any good in the long run to ignore what your gut’s telling you about this business’s problems.

      I think the best thing you can do to manage your stress in the short term is to make sure you have the time and energy to explore other job options. Don’t overbook yourself to the point that you don’t have spare time and energy to job search. Don’t rush into expensive commitments if you’re concerned about not being able to pay for them in 6 months. Sock away as much money as you can so you’ve got a cushion if you need it. Let go of the feeling that you can pull the company out of this hole alone, because it’s not within your power to do that, and focus on what you can do right now so you’re in a more stable place 6 months or a year from now.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Change your focus from your current employer to finding a new job. Use any time above 40 hours a week to be job searching. Your employers have already shown you that they are not going to be there for you in the long term, so you need to prioritize yourself over your current job.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ask them to compare last year’s financial records with this year’s.
      As a manager there is only so much you can do to keep costs down. For example, you cannot move the business to a cheaper rent that would be up to the owners to decide that.
      You can ask to go over the monthly budget to see where you can help them reduce costs.

      Refuse to carry their panic for them. Start your job search now. It sounds like these folks manage by panic that is their approach. So even if you get through this there will be something else to panic about in a short bit. Keep a level head and let them know that you will help as much as you can and privately know that you are out of there at the first opportunity.

  110. anonymous for this*

    Not so much a question as just wanting to share my excitement. About a year ago at Old Job, I got a new boss who, to put it simply, was a terrible and toxic manager. Within a month of her starting, I realized that she was not going to change and I needed to start job searching. I’m in a specialized field, so there aren’t tons of jobs floating around in my area, and moving was not a good option since I had recently bought a house. After about 6 months, it got so bad that I decided to just quit and go with some part-time contracts that I had lined up, even if it meant living off of savings for a while (by that point, my boss had lied to my face, tried to put me in literally life-threatening situations and told me I wasn’t cut out for the field when I raised concern, and made me miss my family’s Christmas Eve dinner). I am so happy because I have been freelancing since then, and just signed a contract this week that should put me at full-time by next month. The best part is that I really love what I do now, I work with a lot of really great people who value me in ways that Old Boss never would have, and since I set my own schedule I’ll never have to work on another holiday if I don’t want to. My only complaint is that my health insurance rates are now astronomical… But that’s an entirely different conversation altogether.

    1. nep*

      This is a great good-news story, and inspiring. Great that you took that leap.
      Thanks for sharing. Happy for you. Rock on.

    2. Argh!*

      Thanks for telling us your story! I’m in a similar situation now, but with a new toxic grand-boss. I have considered applying for jobs with other bosses, but they all also report to toxic grand-boss, so escape is my only option. I have applied for a few jobs in the past four years & didn’t get them. I saw one listed today that I want to shoot for. It’s about a 90 minute drive from where I am now, which I couldn’t do as a commute but it would mean being able to see my friends on weekends, so I’m going for it!

  111. One of The Keating 5*

    One of my close co-workers has just been diagnosed with cancer. She will be receiving her treatment plan next week.

    What can I do to help her during this time?

    1. Kirsten*

      Ask her! She may not know yet, though, if she’s still adjusting to the diagnosis and figuring things out. I think it’s also nice to ask if you can help with specific things (e.g. bringing a meal, helping with errands) rather than just giving the generic “let me know if I can do anything” which is often just what people say when they have no intention of following through.

    2. Lora*

      Depends on her treatment plan, but what I needed was:

      Flexible hours and ability to WFH
      Absolutely nobody getting between me and the restroom, ever, lest I kick them out of the way
      Minimal smells of any kind, whether food or air freshener or perfume
      People to generally chill the heck out. If you’re throwing a hissyfit about the TPS reports, it looks rather unreasonable to a cancer patient. They’ve just had their sense of perspective radically adjusted, and the yardstick for “how important is this” is “will anyone actually literally DIE?” Not that they’ll have any loss of work quality, it’s just that I noticed people will flip out and completely lose it over things which are not worth getting that upset about. In the hissyfit-throwers’ minds, they had a genuine concern about work quality and they were frustrated that they weren’t being taken seriously. To me, they looked like the pettiest, snottiest, histrionic drama queens on earth. So, there’s that I guess.

      1. nonegiven*

        I wanted my clothes not to rub off the med cream for the radiation burn. I also wanted to drive an hour both ways and find a d*mn gown that my arms would go in so I didn’t have to walk across a PUBLIC hallway topless and for the techs not to give me sh*t for throwing all the gowns on the floor in the dressing room looking for one because I had to shove my arm in each one to be sure. The first couple of times, it was easy to find one on the bottom shelf, then they quit stocking them.

        Insult to injury, they pressured me to ring their stupid bell after my last treatment.

        I mean i really felt insulted by that after all the crap the techs gave me that I had to escalate to the patient advocate to get a gown that fit, I know d*mn well I’m not the fattest patient in treatment. Maybe the others weren’t comfortable complaining.

        They put that stupid bell on TV news. I wish I’d held out and flipped it off instead of tapping it. I wish I’d said FU to that woman for making this so much harder for me, to the tech that gave me the most crap and smart ass answers. It’s hard enough to have cancer without the people treating it mouthing off and humiliating you.

        Plus, don’t call and wake me up with less than 5 hours notice to change my appointment date or after 2 months of waiting, forget to tell me my appointment date, then call me with 2 hours notice to drive an hour one way because of a change in time for an appointment I never had notice of in the first place and not give me time to find someone to go with me because I felt pressure for how long I’d been waiting to hear from the doctor and I never wanted to walk into that place alone to the point, now I’ll wait in the parking lot if my support was late because she had to drive 2 hours to get there.

        The tests, the surgery, more tests, another surgery, more appointments someone forgot to call me about, the crap I took off people to get treatment, the crap I still take off people to get the anti hormone pills, multiple doctor changes, letting them force me to an out of the way town, then putting my foot down when my mother moved and missed an appointment because it was so far out of her way.

        Cancer is hard. Cancer treatment is worse.

        My mom had it again after 11 years, I’m 4 years out and on an aromatase inhibitor, maybe for the rest of my life. If I get it again, I am done. I’ve had all the crap I’m taking off those snobby mfs. I’d rather die on drugs than go through their humiliating ‘treatments’ again.

    3. Ange*

      Definitely ask. She might just want you to treat her as usual or she might want to talk or she might want practical help.
      I personally didn’t want any practical help from my colleagues but they text me from time to time and that’s nice (I am currently on sick leave).

  112. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

    So I’m looking at applying for some contract to perm employment and I had a question about time off. If I take a 6 month contract and then get hired on permanently do I have to wait three months after being made permanent before asking for time off? What is the general consensus for this?

    1. La Revancha*

      Do they have a rule that you have to wait three months? If you accrue a certain amount of time per month or per paycheck, you should be able to use that time to take off.

    2. zora*

      It depends on the company. I’ve had places where there is a policy about when you can start taking time off, and other places where you can take it, but you accrue time off as you go, so if you take time off in your first month, it is unpaid. And other places where you can take time off immediately.

      You’ll have to ask about that place, unfortunately, but if you are going through a placement agency, you could ask them, they might know how that company operates.

    3. Sualah*

      It depends on company policy, and also the culture and your manager. If you were a 6 month temp, and you were really stellar during that time, then even if you took PTO during your first couple weeks, I think that would be looked at differently than a brand new permanent hire who took time off during their first two weeks. (That wasn’t scheduled beforehand, that isn’t sick, all those caveats.) Even though you were a temp, you can still be building your reputation. It might seem flaky to take time right off the bat if the manager knows nothing about you. Even though you’ll technically be a new hire, it would be silly to pretend that 6 months didn’t exist and your manager doesn’t know your work ethic.

  113. Ellen*

    I’m a first-time direct manager and would like to get my report a holiday gift. What are good gifts for this situation and what price range is appropriate for a junior employee? My managers have often gotten me gift cards (to Starbucks or B&N); occasionally they’ve gotten more specific gifts (e.g. a movie or album) they know I’m interested in, but my report is new enough that I don’t know what I would get in that category.

    2. cornflower blue*

      If you aren’t too familiar with newbie’s tastes, an “in-house” gift could be good, if that’s an option. Such as: card for a free lunch in the cafeteria, or one of whatever the latest Awesome Thing In The Company Store is. (Here, that’s an incredibly well-insulated sleek travel mug with the company logo on the side. People are willing to fight for the danged things, I swear.)

    3. Today's Anon*

      Gift cards, especially to stores like Target that sell a bit of everything, are always welcome. I’d be careful with gifts of food, though. In my small (~50 people) workplace, I have several colleagues following each of these diets: vegetarian; vegan; gluten-free; kosher; or some combination of the above. There is also one person who is allergic to mammal products, and another who is allergic to fruit. If you don’t know your report well, any food you buy could be dangerous.

  114. La Revancha*

    I had an old boss that would make a little goodie bag with some scrabble/trail mix, chocolates, things like that. I liked it and would also be into a Starbucks gift card!

  116. KMB213*

    My boss used derogatory language against gay people that I found upsetting and I froze when he said it – he sometimes makes mildly sexist comments or brings up subjects not well-suited for the workplace (like asking frequently if I’ve lost weight or extending his frustrations with his ex-wife to all women), but it wasn’t something I was really expecting or was prepared for. It was frustrating because I generally speak up when people use that kind of language, but, in the workplace, I just froze.

    No question, I just wanted to vent my frustrations somewhere – if he does it again, I feel I’ll be better prepared to let him know I’m not comfortable with that kind of language.

    And yes, I am actively looking for a new job.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think “Wow” is a good response when you can’t think of any others. Also making a horrified facial expression. Speaking up is awesome, and you should do it. But honestly don’t kick yourself too much about it either. Since this is your boss, there is a huge power differential in play.

  117. Have to be anon today...*

    Update on the New Employee (NE story from last week).

    NE has been shifted away from my higher level work and given simpler things to work on with another coworker. Still, lots of questions. I’ve seen NE on Indeed.Com, NE spends a lot of time on the phone with kids and family, not focused, but not my problem. NE was also tasked to do one of my less complicated tasks, but could not accomplish without questions, frustration, and basically being walked through it.

    Reported to my manager. Nothing more I can do. At least my manager said maybe they expected too much from NE after just 2 months. Sighs.

  118. Alex*

    I currently work in the public sector, and have almost exclusively since university. I am starting to look at jobs in the private sector, but I’m worried about culture shock. Unfortunately I find that most of the stereotypes about public sector employees are applicable. (Why work hard when you can’t get a raise/promotion? Just keep the status quo, etc.) Does anyone have advice or anecdotes about making that switch? Did the interview process seem the same, were you caught off guard by anything?

    1. Wheezy Weasel*

      Sample size of 1 for me, but I found the application and interview processes for private sector were wildly variant than what you’ve likely seen in the public sector. You could be hired after a 30 minute phone call or sit through three days of meetings with 15-20 individuals. The process could take a day or a month, you could get very little communication about the status of your application…there’s just no good way to know. In my own experience more than 75% of applications to private sectors jobs won’t even merit an automated rejection. Most universities and public offices seem to have long hiring processes, but you are updated along the way as to the status of your application. As such, it’s not that useful to try and measure your progress via the pubic sector metrics you’ve experienced. The AAM consensus is to treat all interactions as ‘that’s great, let’s pretend I didn’t get the job and move along’. Take this attitude through the phone interview, the in-person interview, etc.

  119. Pudgy Patty*

    Is anyone here familiar with Python, R, or data science generally? I started taking a class on the field, and it has been tremendously humbling. I love working in Excel and I had wanted to study this to make a career transition. After the first week, I’m wondering if I made a huge mistake. I know it’s only the first week, but all my other peers seem way more comfortable than it than me. Our instructors are not actually teaching us the languages; they are making us do projects and we are free to use tools/programs as we see fit. The problem is, I have literally zero exposure to these tools; that’s why I was taking this class.

    Curious if anyone learned Python or R with absolutely no programming experience prior, and how long it took before you felt comfortable. How do you recommend practicing? I don’t even know what sorts of mini-programs to build or questions to ask since I don’t even know what the functions/commands/language syntax are.

    1. Junior Dev*

      Programming is hard. A lot of people who are good at programming are bad at teaching. Know that there is nothing wrong with you, it’s probably a different way of thinking than you’ve ever done before and until you get used to it, it is very uncomfortable.

      I work at a coding school as a tutor and I literally had a student hug me yesterday because she had been so frustrated with the problem she helped me with.

      Is there a particular thing you’re struggling with? I can see if I have any resources I suggest for it.

      Make use of any resources available to you–if the class is at a college or University there should be a computer lab with tutors. Ask other students if they want to have a study group so you can get help. See if you can meet with the instructor to clarify what you’re struggling with.

      1. Junior Dev*

        For practice problems, these sites:

        Coding Bat
        Project Euler (lots of math)
        Hacker Rank

        Do you have a textbook? Does it have additional practice problems you can do?

      3. Pudgy Patty*

        My struggle is that the course I’m taking isn’t actually instructing us in the language, and so I feel really lost. I’m worried this is not the right approach for me, but it sounds like this is just the way these classes go — you just have to do it to learn? I learn by starting with the super basics, repeating a lot, then moving to the next step. I also feel like resources like Codeacademy aren’t helpful because they are simultaneously too easy and don’t actually explain what you’re doing or WHY you’re doing it.

        I’m confused on why I need Python for data analysis. I’m so used to running pivot tables in Excel, I don’t understand how that translates to programming languages and applications. I really need to see examples, and then learn the functions in the language.

        In this case, I am trying to understand file formats other than CSV, like XML and JSON. But I don’t really know what they are other than what they look like. I am supposed to open them up using Python or R, but I don’t quite get that either. For Python, it seems like that’s the language itself, but the application is run through Terminal on my mac, and then potentially connected to a file run in a reader like Atom…? It’s just SO confusing and I don’t understand it. I am familiar with HTML from an email marketer perspective, but that’s my only exposure to coding. This stuff doesn’t seem analagous at all.

        1. CAA*

          Yeah, using HTML to tag the parts of a document is not analogous to writing code that executes an algorithm to solve a problem. A lot of people get caught up in that trap. You are not alone.

          Have you looked at some of the beginner resources for non-programmers at python.org? It sounds like your current class is expecting you to have some programming fundamentals and also some python fundamentals and it’s teaching you how to apply what you already know to the field of data analysis. Since you don’t have those fundamentals, you’re in a bit over your head. I don’t know if you’ll be able to get the programming knowledge together fast enough to succeed in the data science course, but I’d start with the online tutorials that are focused on learning to program with python. If that’s not enough, then you might need to find a local tutor who can do some intensive one-on-one work with you to help fill in the gaps.

        2. Jaded*

          I did a class in Python at uni a handful of years ago; I’d literally not done any coding since early 1980’s Spectrum Basic (all those Goto loops, omg!). The Python lecturer told us at the beginning that the way to pass the course with a good grade was simple – attend all the classes and do all the exercises. And he was right. By the end of it, I’d written a game for our end-of-semester assessment that I was pretty pleased with, and I got a very good grade. So yes, you do have to do it to learn. BUT – if you feel that your course isn’t teaching you in the right way then it sounds to me like you need to find a resource that does work for you.

          Since the Python course, I’ve done a fair amount of stuff in Matlab, and after about 3 years of using it off-and-on (mostly off) I reached the stage where I could do most of the stuff I wanted to, but not quickly or elegantly. I’m currently hitting my head against Visual Basic to solve a work problem of matching elements within data sets that just can’t be done any other way in Excel other than by programming (to my knowledge).

          Honestly, I don’t know that programming does get any easier! I think all that happens is that the problems you work on just become harder. I will say though, that having really struggled with programming – swearing, crying, you name it! – I did notice that I’d become significantly better at programming than other people who started at the same time as me but who hadn’t gone through the struggle that I had. That’s the only way I know that I actually made any progress at all.

        3. Junior Dev*

          JSON and XML are alternative ways of storing data. Both of them are more flexible than CSV in that each record can have different keys (analogous to column names in CSV) and in that there can be nesting of data (so an entry with “species”:”dog” might also have a key of “breed”, whose value is itself a dictionary with “name”:”Golden Retriever” and “color”:”yellow”.)

          I would look up tutorials on reading from and writing to files with each of these formats, and once you’ve done that try to write a program which loops over the entries in a file and prints sentences with each one. So if you had a CSV of teapots, you could write a for loop that prints format(“the {} teapot is {} flavored.”, line.name, line.flavor)

        4. AcademiaNut*

          Honestly, it sounds like the course you’re taking is totally unsuited to what you need. It sounds like a course for people who already know how to program and are interested in learning to apply it to data science. I’m not surprised you’re lost.

          I would recommend going through an introduction to programming course (in python). It should start with things like branching and conditionals (for, if and while statements) and data types, and work from there to more complicated topics. Once you’ve done that, you can branch into data science. If you’re learning online, or from a textbook, I’d also suggest hiring a tutor for an hour a week, or something like that, so you can ask specific questions and have them explain what you don’t understand. There’s a ton of python resources on line once you’ve got some of the basic stuff mastered, but I find that you need a certain level of understanding before you can ask the questions well, and understand the answers.

          Working with Excel is quite different than thinking about how you do things in python. I find doing anything more complicated than a simple summation frustrating in Excel, because I’m used to working on the programming end (with lots of numerical work and statistical analysis). And, as others have said, HTML formatting isn’t really coding in the python sense.

          The first programming language is by far the hardest to learn, because you’re learning all the underlying concepts at the same time. Once you’ve learned one, the second (or more – I think python was my eighth language) is much easier. I taught myself a little Basic in high school, but my primary programming intro was two semesters of intro programming in university (in Pascal). That was basically the last formal course I took in programming – the rest I learned as I need it.

    2. Lora*

      Learned R in grad school in a class where the instructors had us work in groups with some biologists + some compsci students in each group, and we were expected to teach each other the concepts. It was not a good way to do that, I learned more from the online R forums than I did from the dude in my group. I still didn’t feel comfortable for at least a year afterwards.

      There are good R tutorials online now that walk you through various steps and programming.

      Can’t help you with Python, by the time I learned that I already knew Perl and Java for bioinformatics. But R has a lot of good online support.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      I have had to learn basic CShell, Bash, Python, and R from scratch. I always learned from someone who would send me example scripts, I’d start by modifying those, until I got good enough to write my own. My skills are pretty 101 level but they work for the level of data science I need to do in research.

      However the learning curve for R especially can be steep – the data formatting, command formatting, etc. is going to be much harder to pick up if you’re not using to operating on the command line.

      Also the reason you “need” R or python for data analysis is that you can write scripts that can be shared, version controlled, and archived so that the analysis can be replicated and it’s clear what you did. Excel hides formulas in cells/tables in a non-transparent way that is inappropriate for large or sensitive data sets. Excel autocorrect or human error has been the reason for a lot of research paper retractions in economics and genetics. It’s not really considered appropriate to use for complex scientific analysis, though I know it’s popular in industry and especially the financial sector.

      1. Jaded*

        Yes! This is how I learn too! Copy something that works, modify it, break it, fix it, extend it, find you’ve broken it again, fix the break….. Stack Overflow in particular has been invaluable for me lately for finding examples, though I don’t usually understand their technical discussions.

    4. Dr. KMnO4*

      Caveat: I am definitely not an expert in R.

      I used R for several parts of my dissertation. I found it to be very useful, though not always intuitive. The best resource I found was the documentation for the R packages I used, and stack overflow. That website really helped me unpack some of the trickier bits of code. I found that I often didn’t have to write code from scratch, I could take bits and pieces of code from packages and modify to fit my needs. I don’t know what your projects require, but from what I’ve seen, the R community is large and helpful.

      I don’t know that I’d necessarily refer to myself as comfortable with R, per se. I am confident that with some pre-written code, a little bit of fiddling, and some stack overflow searching, I can figure out how to do most of what I need to do. I think that practicing should be focused on the tasks you will need. If you don’t need to use certain functions, don’t practice with them. Grab some data, and try stuff out. The program will tell you if what you want to do won’t work.

    5. Student*

      Python is a very broad-ranging tool set. R is much more specific to statistical analysis. Different programming languages have different niches. Broad advice – Python is a reasonable language to start learning with. You may find Matlab more suited to you, if you have it available to you – but it’s too expensive to pick up for home use, whereas Python is free.

      You are in a class utterly unsuited to your experience level. Drop it. Take it again when you are ready for it. You aren’t going to get anything useful out of it right now. You don’t have the prerequisites.

      First off, learn to program. You can take a class (in any language, it’ll get you the basic concepts, which are widely portable to other languages). Also, learn to statistics, or to math, or to science. Take a different class at the same time. Almost doesn’t matter what specifically, just pick one that you are interested in and is more substantive than a AST101-astronomy-for-people-who-like-pictures-of-stars survey course. One where you are problem-solving, that’s the key idea – it helps you learn how to break a problem down to manageable bits. That’s complementary with the programming.

      Then, realize that you don’t need to know the syntax/commands/functions. Nobody knows them all. We look them up! You do need to learn where and how to look them up, though. You use Excel, so you hopefully know how to look up functions and solutions in Excel. If not, then it’s time to learn! It’s not so different in any other language, just a different source. Google will get you pretty far by itself. Help functions, manuals, playing around, a network of people who do similar work, web sites for specific languages/communities/problems will get you further, and creativity and independent deep research get you the final bit.

    6. Sam Foster*

      Are you taking a course that has prerequisites that you’ve failed to complete? Can you withdraw from the class?

      I have a degree in Computer Science and you sound like my former classmates who didn’t have the necessary prerequisites.

      1. Pudgy Patty*

        It’s in one of those coding bootcamps. Says it has no pre-reqs, but everyone else seems to have some familiarity. The goal is not the programs or the languages, but learning how to analyze data and build visualizations.

        1. Desparate & Serious*

          Coming in late to this, but I hope it is helpful.

          There are other data analysis programs (like Stata and SPSS) that are MUCH more intuitive than R. They have very detailed dropdown menus, and you can complete tasks with the menus OR with code.
          SPSS is cool because you can complete a task with the dropdown menus, and then paste it into a text screen (useful for both documentation, and leaning the syntax).

          Data cleaning (renaming, restructuring, scaling variables) is a nice way to learn the general lay of the analysis program you are using without having to apply any real “statistical analysis”.

          I think it’s also useful to know (and please forgive me if you already know this) that analysis is really two very different skill sets in one. The analysis piece is the penultimate step (just before interpretation) in a process that begins with a question. All of your analysis (including the interpretation of the analysis) will be informed by what you want the data to tell you. So, if you are coming in without the research background, it might be really helpful to start with a general primer on data-driven research before diving into the analysis piece.

          Good luck!

  120. Junior Dev*

    What’s some advice for relatively junior people to respond to bad interview questions? That is, they want the job, but the premise of the question is such that it’s hard for them to answer “well” in some way. (I’m not talking about questions that are illegal or discriminatory in some way, rather ones that are not good indicators of job performance and are a sign of poor interviewing skills.)

    I work with people who are studying computer programming and I’ve been on both sides of interviews where they’d pull random engineers into the interview, and you get a lot of questions like “what’s your favorite [operating system|text editor|version control merge strategy]” where the asker is using agreement with their arbitrary preference as a weird proxy for technical ability. This is just an example, but I know we are sending these students iny an industry where they are going to face this sort of thing fairly often. How can I equipment them to handle these situations gracefully?

    1. Manders*

      Oof, that’s hard to give advice for because there’s an arbitrary “right” choice that the student doesn’t know and can’t reasonably be expected to guess. Does the format of these interviews allow them to explain their choices or give a few different options for different situations? For instance, “I find dark chocolate teapots to be the best for serving green tea because the flavors blend together nicely. But when I’m serving orange tea, it’s easier to use a white chocolate teapot.”

    2. Soupspoon McGee*

      I would coach interviewees to talk about a couple of good choices and why those might be useful in certain situations. That strategy lets grad show what they know and how they think about tools they can use, while keeping it open for discussion. Depending on the interviewer, it might be good to follow an answer with, “What do YOU find useful?”

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’ve been the interviewer and the interviewee in this situation, and sometimes it’s not a weird proxy for technical ability. (And sometimes it is, and then you’ve got a terrible interviewer.)

      But when I ask this question, I don’t care what the answer is. What I want to hear is your justification for your answer. I’m looking for two things – do you have an opinion that you’re willing to share, and can you explain it. (I also tend to phrase the question as “What’s your least favorite X, and why?”)

      See, for a lot of problems in programming, there’s not one right answer*. There are several, but one may be better than others. But that solution probably won’t get picked if you can’t a) share your solution, and b) show you’ve put some thought into it.

      *Ok, there’s one right answer if you ask me how to do a bubble sort. But if you ask me that in an interview, I’m going to reply by asking you what sort of odd custom setup you have that you don’t have access to standard library files in the program or access to the internet that you need to invent the bubble sort from scratch. But I am cynical about such things.

      1. Tau*

        But if you ask me that in an interview, I’m going to reply by asking you what sort of odd custom setup you have that you don’t have access to standard library files in the program or access to the internet that you need to invent the bubble sort from scratch. But I am cynical about such things.

        I would pay to see this. A bunch of the programming skills tests/questions are just stupidly artificial that way.

  121. JokeyJules*

    How do I deal with my boss who toes the line of inappropriate behavior at work?

    I work at a very fun office, we all get along well and blow off steam sometimes together (balloon volleyball, shooting rubber bands, darts, ping pong). We also crack a lot of jokes with each other. But my boss always takes it sliiiiiiiightly too far. I don’t know how to tell him that it’s not being well received, because any time I’ll make an expression of discomfort with something he says he tells me that everyone here jokes. I’m newer, but my new coworkers have explicitly said they’re not sure why he does/says the things he does.
    A recent example was him telling me that the in-office massages (from a professional company) should be strip-down “authentic”. I told him nobody in the office is going to be comfortable removing ANY clothing in the office for a massage, even though they will be in the conference room. He disagreed, laughed, and said that they better be “authentic” and “traditional.”
    I don’t feel like these are advances or harassment. I really think he just doesn’t realize that saying things like that is somewhat inappropriate.
    Any advice here?

      1. Amtelope*

        It seems likely that’s what the boss meant, yes, since massages (outside the office!) usually do involve removing clothing. I’m not sure what you think he could have meant instead?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          There can be a sheet between the naked person and the MT.

          I would develop a short list of go-to phrases for when he derails. One example would be, “Ohhh, I don’t think I wanna go THERE.” and turn to leave the conversation if possible.

  122. Incognito*

    I’ve been at my new job 1 month now. It’s a much healthier environment although I’m not sure it’s the best fit long term. I miss having other people in my field around for idea exchange and moral support. I’ve also realized I’m not fully recovered from the burnout and trauma from my last job, and find I’m just having trouble emotionally around that.

    Some of it feel like grieving for the loss of a 6 year investment and loss of colleagues and a certain amount of trust and seniority that comes with being someplace that long, and now I am starting over in a completely different type of company and trying to figure out how I fit in and realizing how much my self confidence took a beat down and needs to be rebuilt.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, it’s a mixed bag of all kinds of emotions. Remember these are feelings, not actions. No one is doing these things to you any more. Use affirmations and tell yourself, “That is over now. I am okay now.”

      Your new place sounds great. Enjoy, you so deserve to have a good work place.

  123. Library Lady*

    I have my MSLIS, but was thinking about going back to school for my archival certification. I have experience with digitization, but haven’t really worked with archives a whole lot, so I don’t know if it’d be worth it then. Otherwise I was thinking about going into technical writing because I have an English background with the MSLIS degree, but I don’t know. Any thoughts?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      There is no accrediting body for Archivist training, so my question would be, Why do you want one? Is there a specific job you saw where you think this would be useful? Do you want to move into archives?

      I’ll add that if I were hiring for a new Archivist (which I am not at the moment), I would look for archival experience before any sort of certification. So, perhaps volunteering locally might be a better way to get that on your resume.

    2. An Archivist*

      It’s not worth it—you already have the credential you need. Now you just need experience! SAA does a two-day boot camp, I think, if you need to understand the essentials. That said, it’s much harder to find a job as an archivist.

  124. Soupspoon McGee*

    PA school update: Lots of you cheered me on as I applied to PA school. I was accepted into a great program a year ago, and classes started this summer. It’s amazing! It’s hard work, but that means spending focused time plowing through tough concepts that I know I’ll eventually understand. I have had enough wins to realize I can learn this stuff.

    Before deciding to go to PA school, I was in a job that was no longer fulfilling, at a place with a very dysfunctional culture. It took some over-the-top dysfunction to push me to make a change. It was so bad that taking chemistry, something I had hated and feared since high school, looked like a good idea. It was hard for me–painfully hard. It’s tough for me to focus when I LIKE something. But each time I got it, I also got more confidence. Between chem and all the other science I had to take, I got better at studying and at forgiving myself for doing things that were not studying (like hanging out here).

    PSA: If you are unfulfilled and unfocused, you can do something different when you’re good and ready. No rush. But you can.

    PSA2: I did not get into my “dream school.” I was disappointed about that, initially, but where I am is the best fit for me and my classmates, and I love it here. THIS program is great because they are obsessively up front about their goals and the culture, and they worked hard to build a class of students who believe in the mission. THIS is what a functional program or workplace should look like.

  125. the future will be better*

    I got an email for a job I applied for… they have explicitly asked for my salary expectation, and made it abundantly clear they will not give any sort of range. They way they did it was ruder than anything I’ve ever experienced, I’m almost impressed by their gall (though I suppose compared to some of the letters here, it isn’t bad!).

    As a side note, does anyone know what a job editing online materials for a university in the midwest should make? I don’t even know what would be reasonable.

    Thank god I’ve decided to focus on going back to school full time, I’m so excited to switch fields and have better options!

    1. Nanc*

      Try https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_stru.htm. You should be able to search by State, which would be useful if you’re going to be working remotely. You may live in a higher cost of living area and it would be good to see what the difference (if any) is.

      You could also Google [your State name] occupation and wage information. For Oregon we have https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_stru.htm. It’s nice because it breaks down salary be area as well as the entire State. The wage info is going to be higher in a metro than rural area so you can get an idea of what is currently paid in your area.

      1. the future will be better*

        To repeat what I said below (is that the correct etiquette? I feel rude not responding to both!) the problem I’m having is they named the position in a way that is really odd – it actually shares a job title with a position in manufacturing. So I feel like any sort of salary thing I lookup would be quite weird. Though actually, thinking about it I wouldn’t be surprised if they did that in order to pay less!

        Should I search by the job duties even though I’m not sure what title that would be (it’s essentially an editing job for their online course content, or the job title (but I think that would result in lots of wrong data, since it’s not in manufacturing).

        1. Nanc*

          Alas, that’s the drawback to gathering data! They can’t possibly include every single occupation title.

          What you’re looking for are guidelines. Try searching for editor. If it comes up in your industry, you can probably be comfortable trusting the info. I don’t think there’s going to be a difference between editing online content versus paper content. You might search combinations of keywords or individual keywords and then manually compute an average salary from the sources.

          Once you have a general figure, if it’s one you could live with as a salary, ask them again for a range so you can see where it fits. Also, if they are a public institution salaries are considered public information. You just need to find their budget document and the salary breakdown for positions. If it’s a new position, you may have to guess/compare to something similar, but the info will be there.

          Good luck.

          1. the future will be better*

            Success! It didn’t occur to me to look at their public salary breakdown, but I’ve found it, and I think that I can actually put a higher range – though I’d be new, no one in the department makes below a certain amount, so I suspect they can pay more than I would’ve guessed! I almost feel like I should go even higher to match their mid range, but I’ll just give a range and hope it works out. Thanks for your help!

            I suspect they’ll want the cheapest they can get with that email, but hey, you never know. I wouldn’t do it for dirt cheap anyway.

      1. the future will be better*

        I have! The problem is they named the position in a way that is really odd – it actually shares a job title with a position in manufacturing, so I’m not sure how to look it up in that specific way.

  126. paul*

    One of our auditors gave us feedback that’s just…wrong. It’s not a huge deal in and of itself but it is awkward. I re-sent that person in particular the documentation they said we were missing and CC’d my boss, but not theirs because they weren’t being mean or combative or anything so I don’t feel like causing issues at this point. There’s also some feedback from them I kind of disagree with as far as recording services available and provided, but I’m going to talk to my boss for more neutral feedback (god knows I’m not infallible either) and then go from there on how to approach.

    I got really flustered during our interview with them so I’m hoping they don’t think I’m a total spaz too. :-/

  127. Grand Mouse*

    Maybe this is a relationship question, but I’m stuck. I have a long distance boyfriend that I want to meet in person for the first time. He’s coming to see me. We were hoping to do it over his winter break (he’s in college) but I’m starting a new job next week that doesn’t get PTO until 3 months in. That will be after his winter break.

    We could visit while I still go to work, or he could take time off school to visit while I have PTO. I don’t know how big of a deal him missing some classes is and I don’t know how to handle PTO since I’ve never worked in a job that has it. Thanks!

    1. the future will be better*

      I think ideally you would have talked to your job about what you wanted to do over the winter holidays during the negotiation process, since it’s understandable you might have plans and need to sort something out for the holidays. Could you talk to your boss about unpaid leave or something, and explain that you already had plans and need a few days around when he will visit? I wouldn’t necessarily specify exactly why (it’s the holidays, people will understand and some people are unfairly less understanding of boyfriends than spouses).

      I suspect that him missing classes could be pretty bad depending on what he does, but he’d have to answer that. I’d imagine you won’t have much PTO after 3 months anyway. So negotiating this now might be your best bet of doing it anytime soon.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      How come the visit couldn’t take place over a weekend (assuming you work a Monday-Friday job)?

      Everyone has a different take on the importance of attending every class. Personally I think missing one class per course per semester is fine and you can make up the notes/learning, so long as you aren’t missing an exam or a due date. But most college schedules are set up (I believe) so that you have a class for the same course multiple times each week. So if he were to visit you for say, a whole week, he’s missing a LOT of classes. That has an impact on his reputation with his professors, on his education, and on his ROI for school (meaning, college costs $x per class credit, and missing a class is like throwing away money).

    3. Squeeble*

      Can you let your new job know that you have some time off that you were already planning to take? They may have flexibility there, although you’ll probably have to take it unpaid.

    4. Theodoric of York*

      Not to be a buzzkill, but I’d like to sound a note of caution. You’ve left out a number of details, such as how long a journey this is, the money situation (yours and his), and how long you’ve been corresponding.

      This is your first face-to-face meeting, and it might not go the way you think. I would keep it as short as is reasonable: maybe a weekend. That way, neither PTO nor classes are affected. If things go well, more visits can be planned.

      1. Grand Mouse*

        He will be flying from Ohio to Washington. We haven’t nailed down a travel time because neother of us have money for the full trip yet.

        We’ve been dating for 7 months! Maybe visiting now is a bit early but not seeing each other is driving us both nuts amd I feel like it’s omportant for our relationship to develop

        We wanted to spend more than a weekend since it would be a whiplash trip for him.

    5. CAA*

      Do you know what days your office is closed for holidays? If you’re in the U.S, it’s probably just Christmas Day and New Years Day, but do find out. You can also ask around among your peers to find out if they usually dismiss people early on the Friday before a 3-day weekend.

      If you can do the visit over New Years weekend and he goes home on the 2nd, then you would have 3 full days without taking any extra time off. If you need a little longer, I think it’s o.k. to ask if you could take the Friday before New Years Day or the Tuesday afterwards as unpaid time. I wouldn’t ask for additional time any later in January though.

  128. Fresh Faced*

    Finished my 3rd week at my PT job. First time that I”ve come across a “person who’s a jerk but very good at the job so we let it slide.” in my work. “Jane” is super abrasive, all interactions I’ve had with her have been her being angry that I’ve done something “wrong”. I have made mistakes as I’ve settled into the role, but she also gets angry if say I leave a cart of stuff in the on the side and take out items from there to the front, rather that bringing the whole tray to the front instead. The difference of 5 feet warranted a lecture while she aggressively put things away “the right way”.

    Everyone knows Jane is a problem but it’s “just the way she is” the team right now is divided by people who don’t like Jane but are used to her and people who aren’t. My manager knows and took all the new hires aside to debrief us on it, explaining that she can be hostile, but she’s one of the most passionate people on the team. And that’s true! she does her job well, and gets things done quickly. All I can think is that keeping her there guarantees that you won’t get anymore passionate people on the team long term, they’ll just leave because of Jane.

    1. LCL*

      Manager is not managing…this will end when Jane does her velociraptor impression on manager. And she will eventually, the Janes of the world are just like that.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. This manager is not managing. No one wants to be treated like crap while they are at work. No one.
        Jane is not passionate, Jane is a b!tch. Passionate people are kind because it is important to them that we pick up their passion. Jane is collecting a paycheck.

    2. AnotherJill*

      I would just calmly ask Jane “Why are you emotionally invested in how I take things off a cart?”. Then ignore her.

  129. Silver*

    My contract job is ending at the end of this month. Which, on the one hand, is good because I hate work and I can stop renting a room and go back to sleeping in my own bed every night (the job is 3 counties away from home). On the other hand, uuuuggghhh, back to money issues and trying to make myself be productive every day.

  130. Parting Shot*

    It’s extremely awkward to be the one collecting money for going-away gifts when you know that the coworker who left last week netted three times as much as the one leaving this week–including from leadership. It feels like i need to do something to make the difference less obvious, but I don’t really have a ton of money to throw at the problem right now.

    1. WellRed*

      Throw the problem to the higher ups? And, stop doing going away gifts going forward. What purpose do they serve?

  131. Canadian Conundrum*

    My family and I will be relocating in the new year to a small town after my husband was recruited for a job that will be a great stepping stone in his career. However it means leaving my job, which I love, and beginning anew, which I haven’t done in ten years! After cruising the job listings for the area I’m feeling somewhat dismayed as I don’t think that there will be a lot of opportunity for me, and I’ve started to think of remote/work from home work, which I’ve never done. I’d love to hear suggestions or success stories from people who have made the transition to working remotely and if there are any job sites (I’ve checked out FlexJobs.com) that people favour over others. I’m currently in management, managing both people and an operation, and wonder if such jobs even exist! Thank you in advance for any guidance you can offer this nervous job seeker!

      1. Canadian Conundrum*

        No, unfortunately it’s not possible with my role. There is no remote work in my location and the company culture has managers very visible both in our own offices and in the areas our employees work. I wish it was a possibility as I love my company!

  132. No Green No Haze*

    I’m trying to figure out how to jump careers, and I need some help.

    Specifically, there’s nothing I particularly want to do as an occupation, or not one that I know about — I have no obviously useful passions that would translate easily into a job description. After 23 years in the workforce, I know more about types of tasks and job situations that suit me than what the content of those tasks should be — so what I need is something on the order of a professional adult guidance counselor to help me find a career I can train into and retire from. I don’t want to work for evil.

    Searching about for job retraining/consulting services nets me a lot of rehabilitative therapy companies, corporate headhunters, or temp staffing agencies. Can anyone tell me how to find someone who can sit me down, evaluate my current skills/personality, and come up with potential career changes that would suit my practical needs and personality? I live in the US, where almost everything is for sale. Surely someone’s selling a service for middle-aged Lloyd Doblers (no kickboxing though.)

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      I know it’s standard old school advice, but have you looked at anything like “What Color is Your Parachute?”. It’s a bit hokey but it has some good suggestions for how to think about what you might like to do.

      1. No Green No Haze*

        I hadn’t considered it *at all*.

        Since I didn’t know it was updated annually, I figured it must be woefully out of touch with the modern job-hunting market. Wrong!! Just skimmed the free bits of the 2018 edition on Amazon, it looks well worth $13.

        Thanks!!

  133. Kate*

    I’m late to the party, but….

    Any suggestions for a thank-you gift for my vet and her practice? They’ve really gone above and beyond with my senior dog. I’d like to send/drop off a Thanksgiving gift basket of some sort. I asked her vet tech for suggestions, and he said not flowers or candy bark (apparently they get tons of that at the holidays).

    Does anybody have a company they like for gift baskets and the like? It’s a small practice– maybe 12 employees total. I’d like to keep it under $50.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Having worked at places that received lots of items like that, things like cookies, etc. that were heavily on the sweet side got tiring fast, especially around the holidays. Or maybe just to me since I’m not really into candies and all that jazz. I love Murphy’s suggestion — if I want a snack, I will reach for a bag of popcorn or pretzels super fast. On a side note, you might consider that popcorn is generally frowned upon for pets because of fears of choking on kernels (not that it’s stopped my dogs from eating dropped pieces).

      1. Kate*

        I never get sick of sweets, so thanks for the reminder that salty, snacky treats might be more exciting. :)

    4. Kate*

      Ps. Just occurred to me that this should be a vegetarian basket since it’s a vet practice. Probably not the right recipients for a sausage sampler.

    5. OhBehave*

      How about a generous donation of dog food for a local rescue? Our local rescues are always looking for food, blankets, and towels.

      Of course, food gifts are ALWAYS loved! The Popcorn Factory is one I’ve used many times. They have a great selection.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        omg. What is up with those pears? They are like candy. I ended up with some because Person thought they were junk. Joke was on Person.

    7. NW Mossy*

      I love Zingerman’s for this kind of thing. They’re a deli based in Ann Arbor, MI, but they ship nationwide and have a really broad range of extremely delicious baked goods and snacks. I particularly appreciate that they have a lot of no-fridge-required options, which is great for offices where the recipients may want to leave items out all day for people to nosh on as desired.

    8. WellRed*

      I once did coffee and muffins from DD. They do like A gallon thing of coffee. Maybe there’s similar with whatever the popular coffee is in your atea?

  134. Where Do I go From Here?*

    Has anyone had any experience with career counselors? I can’t help feeling like I must be doing something wrong in my job search even though every time I ask for feedback it’s positive. I’m at the point where I’m starting to wonder what the hell is so wrong with me.

    I have a weird job history, worked my way from admin to office manager to HR manager and then I stepped away to deal with family stuff (which took 10 years). When I started interviewing again at the height of the recession all the recruiters would say things like, “well obviously you’re not going to get another office job”. Their reasoning: I’d been out of that world too long. So even though I said I’d be happy to start at the bottom and with top scores on all the skills tests and excellent references I couldn’t even get an interview (except with recruiters who would quickly turn me down).

    Eventually I found (not quite full time) work as a personal assistant. After 5 years, I lost one of my main clients and I’m back on the market. Again, even with solid recent work history/skills/references/good rapport with recruiters I’ve met with, still none of them think I’m suitable for an office job. Infuriatingly, I’ve also been told I don’t have the “right” experience to get another job as a personal assistant either. Honestly I’m not even sure I like being a personal assistant, it just happens to work with my skill set. I really just want a job that pays enough for me to live on. I’m not asking to be emotionally fulfilled or even to enjoy it very much – I don’t believe in the myth of the perfect job. But I also don’t want to keep beating my head against doors that are mysteriously closed to me either. I feel like Julia Roberts from that shopping scene in Pretty Woman. I have all this knowledge, all these skills and I’m practically begging people. The whole thing is baffling and demoralizing.

    1. Anon anon anon*

      I wish there were more good career counselors. Based on my own experiences and what I’ve read here, there don’t seem to be many. I tried two career counselors who had great reviews and qualifications in a major city and had horrible experiences with both. They didn’t even read my full resume or look at my basic demographic data. They gave me advice based on what I look like and the job I had at the time. I’ll refrain from ranting. I also tried a free career center that was associated with a community college but open to the public. I was expecting a conversation, but they just had me take a personality test (Myers Briggs) and look at the career suggestions for each type.

      I think there must be decent career counselors out there so it’s probably worth looking. But if you can find a good mentor through a volunteer job or hobby, that’s probably a better bet. You’ll get better advice from someone who knows you and knows what your skills are.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I learned about career counselors is that it goes by income. Some counselors work in the lower ranges and some work in the upper ranges.

      You might benefit from a good life coach instead. Someone who helps people look at their life as a whole and where they want to be in life.

  135. Not that kind of quack!*

    So my new company (been here 6ish months, about 75 employees) has a policy where every employee has to regularly meet with a sales representative of a certain supplemental insurance program every couple months, whether they want it or not. Even if they have zero interest in a policy. Even if they’re already buying the insurance. A 15 minute one-on-one meeting with the sales rep where plans are described and pitched. Been here 6 months, on the third round of this.
    How do I speak up and/or get out of it?

      1. Not that kind of quack!*

        Nope. Outside rep from the insurance company. They give her a conference room for the day.

    2. Drew*

      “Hi. I’m required to meet with you but I don’t want to waste your time or mine actually talking, so I’m going back to my desk as soon as you check my name off your list. Got it? Thaaaaaanks.”

  136. only acting normal*

    That micromanaging tech-lead who was making me act crazy (hiding in the toilets when I saw him coming, hiding work from him until it was complete to avoid him dragging apart work-in-progress, etc)… I composed the issues into a non-whiny factual list, and raised the problem (nice and calmly and professionally) with our mutual manager.
    Boss was great, said they’d handle it discreetly and did so.
    Evidence so far: only one meeting this week, and no desk-drive-bys or incessant check-ups, and no inefficient doubling up of work because of his inability to let tasks go.
    Now just fingers-crossed boss’s intervention sticks.

    (In not so great news, stellar graduate trainee confessed to me that working for the micro-manager was/is getting her down too because she can’t learn when he takes over all the “thinking” part of the task. So hopefully things will improve for her too.)

  137. Applying to multiple govt jobs*

    Question: I know it’s not advisable to apply to lots of different jobs at a single company. Should I worry about applying to lots of jobs through the same local government portal? (DC Government Career Opportunities). Will the apps go through the same HR people or get automatically sent to the HR at the different divisions/agencies?

    1. Kate*

      If you’re applying through the same portal, the HR people will be able to see everything you’ve applied to, even if your applications are being seen by multiple HR people in multiple divisions. I’d treat it as though you’re applying to any large employer.

      1. Observer*

        It doesn’t work that way. The portal generally pretty much directs the applications to the appropriate agency, rather than one set of HR people processing stuff for all the agencies.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I actually think you don’t need to worry about applying for lots of jobs with large employers. We hire people at my workplace all the time who’ve applied for 5 jobs throughout the company; lots of places are siloed such that the hiring manager for Job A can’t even see your application for Job B if it’s in another department. I think that it’s a legit concern at small places, but people really shouldn’t worry about it for larger places (especially if you’re otherwise targeting your job search, customizing your materials, etc).

  138. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    In case anyone cares (you don’t, why would you?), but please send good vibes.

    Had an interview with company #1. Like company #1, and am playing phone tag with the recruiter who has “news” (just send an email like I have clearly indicated I prefer, dammit. Or, I don’t know, ANSWER YOUR PHONE). Why does the company I like the best have to work with the most annoying of the recruiters?

    Had an interview with company #2. Like them, but not as much as #1. 2nd interview is scheduled for Monday with them, they like me and multiple teams are apparently arguing over who gets to make me an offer. We’ll see what happens.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Sending you all the best vibes! I hope you end up getting the job you want. I just did today – I too had two recent interviews with different companies, but preferred company got back to me first, so now I’m doing high kicks all around the office in celebration. Here’s hoping you too will soon be high kicking it up all over the place with a new job :)

  139. Fortitude Jones*

    I haven’t read or posted here in a long time, been busy with work and designation exams and trying to find a new job – welp, I got one today! I just got the call an hour ago from HR stating I’m going to be a Proposal Manager for a $1.5 Billion company. I’m thrilled since I have been searching since late March/early April and was hearing nothing but crickets until I re-wrote my resume and cover letter using Alison’s advice here – the day after I applied to the job, they contacted me to set up a phone screen. I had the phone screen two days after applying, I interviewed on Halloween, and now I’m one of two of their new hires on this proposal team. So excited, but nervous at the same time since I have zero experience with responding to RFPs, but they’re convinced I can pick it up quickly. The Senior VP over this group even told me after our interview together that my cover letter was what got me in the door, not my resume. He said it was fantastic – probably one of the best he’s ever read. God, I hope I don’t screw this up somehow and I hope this career switch turns out the way I hope.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Well, looks like I celebrated too soon. I never got that offer letter. So back to the drawing board I guess. Hopefully the other job will come through.

  140. Q*

    So, at my company, we have tons of people who have been working for this company for just decades (I’ve been here just shy of 6 months now)

    And yet, they don’t seem to be going anywhere with their careers.

    For instance, my job in entry-level (I’m only 24; this makes sense to me, and I’m fine with this role), but the other with my same job title has been here seven. And our team lead, who has our job with only marginally more responsibilities, has been here her entire career and she’s retiring in four years.

    I’ve been going through our files, and one of the people above me was doing my job in ’99, but she’s only one step above me, and in fact we just hired someone even younger than I to do her same role.

    This seems exceptionally strange to me, but I’m only 24 and don’t have a lot of experience. Is this a red flag RE: advancement issues here?

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Yes. Most definitely yes. There’s a reason why people switch jobs to advance sometimes. This sounds like a prime example.

      1. Q*

        I have heard talk about a merry-go-round of employees here, since there are many big players in the industry all crammed in the same 30-mile strip of interstate here, basically hopping from one company to the other to get promoted. But I sort of assumed that was for more senior/executive level people.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Not necessarily, but it’s just a data point to consider. Some people are totally happy with not advancing in their careers, or keeping the same job for many years. They just have different approaches to how their lives and careers work, and this may work for them. Oftentimes, advancement means taking on a managerial position, and a lot of people (including me) don’t want that, and are happy in individual contributor roles for their entire careers. Sometimes they are just happy with what they are doing.

      On the other hand, it could be a sign that advancement at the company is nonexistent. I’d be on the look out for other signs regarding that – is there a fair amount of people who have advanced? How did they do it? If you talk to your boss about advancement opportunities, what does she say? Do they offer several different options for advancement, or is it all pretty much “wait until the person higher than you retires/quits/dies” ?

      1. Q*

        Well, there are a lot of people in my department here who used to work in other roles in other areas. I’m not sure if they were lateral moves, though…our team lead used to work in a different department before she moved here.

        A lot of the advancement seems to come from reorganization from what I’ve seen so far.

    3. einahpets*

      I’d say it depends on the industry.

      One company I interviewed with a few months ago had an employee who bragged about working in the same position and company for over 20 years. In my industry, a lot has changed in 20 years technology wise. The position I was interviewing for would have been partly to help the department catch up and use some new technology. In my interview with this long timer I could tell it was going to be a battle to get her to use anything new or see anything different from her experience/perspective at just the one company.

      At one of my old companies, though, there were a lot of folks that had been there 10 years or so without much advancement, but since it was a service-based company they were always forced to be learning something new to be able to use the next big thing tool wise.

  141. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I have a rant on benefits. My job is changing health coverage and next year and none of the same plans are offered. They’re really pushing everyone to go onto a high deductible plan with an HSA. I’m relatively fine with that in theory, but the highest high deductible plan (i.e. the cheapest) is still more expensive than the PPO I’m currently on. I’ll get less coverage for more money with everything out of pocket until I hit the deductible. Plus, because my partner and I aren’t legally married (but she’s on my health plan) I can’t use the HSA pre-tax money for any of her healthcare. GRRR!!

    The kicker is…I work for a health plan!!!! (We do Medicaid and Medicare, so I’m ineligible for our own plan, but still…you’d think a healthcare company could at least offer decent health benefits!!!

    1. rubyrose*

      This sounds suspiciously like my company, right down to the Medicaid/Medicare reference. By any chance is the corporate headquarters in Long Beach?

      What got me – I’m over 55, so I qualify to contribute an additional $1,000 to the HSA account. However, my company, in their haste to set up the plans, did not do what they needed to do to make that $1,000 pre-tax. So I could not contribute it at all!! They think they might be able to rectify the situation sometime next summer and then allow people to contribute that extra money in three payroll periods.

  142. I Am the Farty Co-Worker*

    The subject of farting co-workers comes up, and how to deal with them. Since I AM the farty co-worker, I wanted to share a product that changed my life. It’s a pill called Devrom and it’s sole purpose is to neutralize the smell of farts. It has been a life-changer for me but I discovered it only after much digging on the internet and professional embarrassment. It’s over the counter, inexpensive, and I WISH someone had been able to tell me about it years ago. So if you are the farty co-worker here is a link https://devrom.com/ and if you have a farty co-worker, maybe suggest they give this a try.

  143. Cranky Chocobo*

    I’ve been dithering over posting something about this for a while now, so here goes…

    I work at a UK not-for-profit that’s made up of a tiny core staff who work in the office, and a small army of freelancers who are basically our CEO’s besties – one of the core staff here, K, essentially went from temp to perm because they needed someone to keep fixing all the messes the freelancers make, and the one person we have who knows how to run our website, R, is frequently driven to hair-pulling and wailing at her desk at the absent-minded marketing freelancer who spins up into a whirlwind of confusion and woe at the slightest provocation. It is, in short, a mess.

    We’ve been meeting our targets for the past three months – the first three months of our financial year – which is making our CEO very happy. She sees the world through rose-tinted glasses, which is comforting for her if not for R, who frequently has the CEO cat-stealth up behind her and hover behind her shoulder before getting into circuitous discussions of how the website does and doesn’t work (the laws of physics get called into some serious question so the CEO can get what she wants). Before we started hitting targets again, there was definitely a sense that the place was circling the drain. We are chronically under-staffed even now, and really can’t afford to lose anyone else, which isn’t helped by the fact that my line manager is going on maternity leave in less than five months.

    I’m looking to move a few hundred miles away – big deal in the UK! – and it will be hard to find a place to live without either a guaranteed income or a guarantor. The latter will be difficult, but I’m hoping, given the straits my workplace is currently in with everyone going two-and-a-half jobs each, they might go for me working long-distance or something along those lines. I suppose what I’m asking is whether anyone’s been in a similar situation and had it work out? And if not…any tips for coping when those around you are losing their heads? Even the few remaining managers we have left are starting to complain out loud where anyone except for the CEO can hear them, and it’s only ramping up even after surviving our usual Autumn busy period. We’re a fairly casual workplace at the best of times, but this is getting weird…

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Is your organisation a member of Charity Comms? If so, they have a peer support/ mentoring scheme you might want to check out. Just a thought. Might help keep you sane.

      If you don’t have a guarantor due to estrangement or lack of family, somewhere like Stand Alone or the Buttle Trust might be able to help. It’s also been my experience in the past that you can move into a house or flat share without a guarantor and then get something more independent when you’ve been in a job for long enough to pass probation etc.

  144. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Having the day off today, resting my eye, and knitting.
    Also–minor vent. A teapot interviewer emailed me yesterday wanting to talk today 3 pm via phone about a robot policy teacup role which sounded cool.
    The interviewer *never* called, and it’s 3:31 pm now. This is the second time (2 different companies) I’ve been stood u for phone interviews. Sheesh, what gives? Can anyone enlighten me as to why people think it’s ok to confirm a time/day then just *not* call? It seems pretty rude and it seems more than one company is doing it.

    2. Squeeble*

      I don’t know if it helps or not, but they’re probably not intentionally standing you up–they’re just super disorganized in general. I’ve had the same thing happen to me more than once (and then they never even get in touch after the fact to apologize or reschedule).

  145. Two-Time College Dropout*

    Why is it sometimes so hard to find exactly what a company does? Does it mean a company is probably a scam?

    I’m looking at a job posting at a “marketing company” and I literally have no idea what product/service the company offers. The “about” section is comically vague– I’ll post it in the reply.

    1. Two-Time College Dropout*

      Here’s all the company has to say about itself, edited very slightly to remove identifying details:

      “LEGITIMATE COMPANY was started with much more than business to consumer acquisition in mind. Vincent Adultman, the company’s president, knew that the client, as well as the local community, have a need for opportunity. Working at LEGITIMATE COMPANY, our team has hands on dedicated training that provides opportunity to learn more than your typical entry level candidate. By providing our team access to constantly learn and develop their skills, the client wins as well.
      LEGITIMATE COMPANY’s team is able to directly meet with the client base and genuinely connect with them.
      Client Acquisition
      Give LEGITIMATE COMPANY a target and we will meet it. Through detailed training and acquiring the right talent, our firm will exceed your expectations.
      Latest Technology
      LEGITIMATE COMPANY is dedicated to learning the latest techniques and connecting technology to out working the competition.
      Problem Solvers
      LEGITIMATE COMPANY is dedicated to finding and cultivating the best team to deliver our clients results and think on their feet in any situation.”

      WHAT EVEN

      3. Anon anon anon*

        You said it’s a marketing company? It sounds like they’re talking about marketing strategies, but really incoherently. Which is hilarious. Because they’re a marketing company.

    2. WellRed*

      Run! Even if they are legit, I feel like marketing jobs run the gamut from legit matketing campaigns to handing out keychains in the bar.

  146. AnonAcademic*

    I am kind of annoyed with a program that aggressively recruited me to teach for them this summer, then changed the timeline on me twice and ultimately hired someone else because I “didn’t fit their recruitment timeline.”

    I was invited to interview because the director had seen me teach and reached out to me about the opportunity. I interviewed in September to teach a session running in July/August, and they originally said they needed a proposal and firm commitment by December. I told them I didn’t know my summer schedule so far out but would keep them updated about potential conflicts. In October they requested a proposal from me ASAP and I told them I was on deadline for a grant and needed a few weeks to put it together. In the mean time, I found out that I had some limits on my availability during the course period, and asked if it would be possible to bring in a few guest speakers to ease the conflict. Although they’d told me that guest speakers were fine when I interviewed they then told me I could only have one during the entire course. I said ok and asked if I could have a bit more time to come up with a proposal that would work – this was last week and I said I’d send it “early next week.” They said sure but let me know they were interviewing another person Monday.

    I put together a course format that would work with my availability, sent it first thing Wednesday morning. I got an email back saying the proposal looked great but that they had already finalized their roster. If I had known they weren’t even going to consider my course proposal, I wouldn’t have written it! All told it took me about 5 hours of precious time I could have spent on other things.

    It did occur to me that if they move timelines around this much, they could do it with my course too and that maybe it’s for the best that it didn’t work out?

  147. Therese*

    I hate the mess that healthcare is right now. I have never had an employer provide health insurance and it’s annoying b/c the plans of me paying on my own are so expensive. :(. My friend told me her health insurance is more than her rent..that is so not cool!

    I am not trying to get political here I just feel the benefits being provided to employees nowadays are sub-par. And companies just don’t value employees a lot of the time..esp in small towns it seems. Just my observation.

  148. Not awesome*

    What’s the least actionable feedback you’ve ever received?

    I once worked at a very toxic job and had a ridiculous title (think, “Guardian of Awesomeness”). Manager once said, “You’re terrible! It’s like you don’t even know what Awesomeness is!!?!”

    Yeeahhhh…..

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      “I need this to be different.”
      “Different how?”
      “I don’t know. Just…different.”

      Well, okay then.

    3. Crylo Ren*

      At my last job, frequently, from different coworkers:

      “I don’t like [thing you created].”
      “I’ll fix it. What don’t you like about it?”
      “I just don’t like it. It doesn’t look right.”

      Oh, OK, I’ll just make it look left, then…

    4. Anon anon anon*

      I mentioned this in a comment on another post this week, but I once got, “We don’t like you. We don’t know why. We just don’t like you.”

    5. Uncivil Engineer*

      After I was hired away from my old department to turn around a sinking ship in a new department:

      New Boss: “I am concerned that people here don’t like you. They say you’re abrasive, always telling them how to do their job, and that you don’t trust their teapot designs.”
      Me ( in my head): Did you just hire me because of a trait that you now don’t want me to use?

    6. Analysta*

      In my performance review:

      “I just didn’t feel you were firing on all cylinders this year…There’s nothing specific you did or didn’t do.”

  149. einahpets*

    I started my new job just two months ago, and it has been great!

    One thing I’ve been caught off guard about, though, is the number of recruiters that have been contacting me on LinkedIn. Right now it is actually about one message/request for contact a day. Is this normal, from other people’s experience of mid-career & fairly active on LinkedIn. I’m in the biotech/pharma space, clinical research.

    The only thing I can think might be explaining it: My previous position was only for a short duration because the company (a small biotech) was running out of funds, so I had only been there for 9 months before needing to find something else. Also, the company I am at now had some bad press recently. Are recruiters looking at my resume and assuming I might want to job hop?

    1. einahpets*

      I will say that not all the recruiters are asking me if I’m interested in a job. About a quarter of them are asking if I have any contacts looking for a new position, after I reply that I am not interested.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Different industry, but I get the same. Unless I’m actually looking for a job, I ignore them. Completely ignore. I don’t even login to Linked In for months at a time!

      Realistically, they’re doing cold calls via linkedin, hoping something sticks.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh lort. That’s a hot mess. I’m sorry those people won’t get paid, but that’s not the OP’s fault! The owner needs to step up!

  151. Cassidy Yates*

    I’m having trouble at work, and I am going to be working with HR to obtain some accommodations for my physical and mental health. The accommodations I’m asking for are:

    1. Freedom to schedule my medical appointments as needed – right now my supervisor requires me to present a doctor’s note before she will grant my sick time, so I bounce back and forth between her and my doctor often;
    2. Flexibility regarding my time management so I can arrive 1/2 an hour late if I am having medication side effects;
    3. A standing desk in my office and a full ergonomic review of my layout so I can follow my physical therapist’s recommendations.

    This is coming up because I have both serious depression and physical ailments that make sitting for long periods painful. This has impacted my work performance pretty heavily, which I fully acknowledge, and I am trying to improve and address the issues. I attempted to do so informally by discussing this with my supervisor, but she has not been receptive. Despite my disclosures, she has been pretty insistent that she sees the problem as me simply not managing my time properly and having too many distractions outside of the work, and that has been showing up in my work reviews. I’m very unhappy with that and would like to ask HR to intervene so that if my efforts to catch up fail and I’m place on a PIP, it will include things that will actually be helpful rather than taking more time for me to attend workshops on time management.

    I’m quite nervous that my supervisor and her boss will think that I have ‘gone over their heads’, and since I am having work problems I may come off as being punitive – but I really simply want this to be a matter of record and to get the support I need. Has anyone else ever done this? Any advice?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      I have an employee I supervise who is in a similar situation. She needs to work from home when possible so that she can do PT for an injury, but my boss/her grandboss is really adverse to WFH for people in her position. He tried to revoke her WFH and she brought in a doctors note to get it back, and he really didn’t like that. I told her to get her medical documentation in order and on file with the office manager and HR, and to log her productivity during WFH. The next time grandboss groused about it, I asked him point blank if we should be tracking her producitivity during WFH if he had concerns? He backed down and has not complained since then. I think he understands how ADA works, he just has this entitlement to act above the law combined with seriously ableist attitudes. It is perhaps my least favorite thing about working for him (did I mention he’s a doctor? yeah.).

      If you are going to formally request accommodations and fear reprisal, I would start tracking your work in a way that documents the issue is not time management/distraction – e.g. that you were late due to a side effect, not because you forgot to set an alarm or something. Log dates, times, and reasons and keep the file not on a work machine. If you trust your HR you could let them know you are concerned about discrimination due to a disability and that you are proactively tracking how your health impacts job performance. Keep in mind that if certain tasks or deadlines are a core part of your job, they can put you on a PIP for not meeting those markers, but if stuff like being 30 min. late has no work impact I imagine that falls under reasonable accommodation and you shouldn’t be penalized in a performance review for that.

  152. Emma*

    I have a meeting on Monday with the boss. It’s a small org, so the boss is the CEO. First order of business is gonna be me admitting, that in my *first week*, I have lost my key for the valuables lockers…

    Flashback to me on Monday thinking “I won’t put it on the same keyring as my house keys: there’s no point taking it with me everywhere I go, because if I lose my house keys on a weekend I’ll have also lost the work key for no good reason!” -.-

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Hahaha at least you can explain what you’ll do in the future to make sure it doesn’t happen again!

    2. JD*

      I wish I could post the hilarious pic of my coworker having my filing cabinet drilled out due to me losing the keys a few weeks ago. I of course found them about 20 mins after that.

  153. Watery Eyed and Croaking*

    What would you suggest be done when one person in the office (me) is bothered by someones perfume and no one else seems to even notice it? I just moved to a new office suite and one of the people I work closely with wears perfume. I can smell it in the outer office where she sits. If she comes into my office the scent lingers. My voice is croaky, my eyes are watering my nose itches constantly. And, I don’t like the smell. I say next to another person today who was wearing a lovely scent that I noticed when we both bent over a spreadsheet. It was not otherwise detectable, so it is not perfume in general that bothers me. I just asked someone who sits in the outer office with 2 other people and none of them even notice . I asked my supervisors and they don’t notice it either. I appear to be the only one.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, you might decide to mention it directly to her first. Ask what she wears.
      If you can tolerate other perfumes, there probably really is something in this particular one that you didn’t even know you were allergic to (some new scents have pretty exotic ingredients).
      At least that gives her a chance to switch if she’s not all that attached to that particular scent.

      Our HR sent out an email recently asking people to not wear “heavy” perfumes. Not sure how they define “heavy” but I still wear a light body spray type thing.

  154. Sparkly Librarian*

    I blew a fuse at work today (literal fuse: old building + toaster + microwave) and knocked out the whole staff office. Computers, fridge, everything. Also I’m covering for my boss who’s out today. I didn’t know how to fix it, so I had to shamefacedly call the department office and speak to my boss’s boss, who walked me through resetting it. So, now I know where the work fusebox is! And that it’s much easier than I’d thought!

    What’s something that you learned a lot later than most people?

    1. Amber Rose*

      This is not really the same thing, but I have a confession: I still have no idea how to use the coffee maker. I am literally in terror of the day someone asks me for a cup of coffee.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Mostly same, because I don’t drink coffee! I think I know how to make the machine itself work, but I would have no earthly idea how much grounds to put in, etc.

        1. Anna Held*

          4-5 scoops (tablespoons) per pot. Do 5, ask someone to test it for you.

          Pro tip: if you run out of filters, you can peel apart a 2-ply paper towel. Most will be thin enough to be used as a filter. As everyone else goes into withdrawal panic, you will be a STAR.

    2. Julianne*

      I’ve been working at my school for 3 years and I still have no idea how to buy lunch. (Do I go through the same line as the kids? Can I jump the line? Do I need exact change? Can I start a tab? Where is the menu even posted?)

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      I didn’t learn to tell time on a clock face until 5th grade, I think. I remember realizing when I was much younger that everyone else knew how to do it but I wound up teaching it to myself with one of my younger sister’s books.

    5. Katriona*

      I didn’t learn how to properly tie shoelaces until I was in high school. I vaguely remember my parents trying to teach me when I was little and for some reason I just couldn’t get it, so when my first grade teacher made fun of me for having to ask someone to tie my shoes I started just making two loops and tying them in a knot.

      1. valc2323*

        I learned how to tie my shoes the “official way” in elementary school. About the time I was in fifth grade I realized that it was both faster and easier to use your method of two loops and tie a square knot – and bonus, they are double-kotted in a way that you can still pull them out easily without fingernails to pick the knot apart! I still use this method.

        Something I learned a lot later than most people is how to navigate highway signs. I didn’t really get how they worked until my mid-twenties (to be fair, the first time I regularly drove on the highway). I wish, on car trips as a kid, my parents had taken advantage of the teachable moment as so many of my friends’ parents did…

    6. Drew*

      If it makes you feel better, I once blew out the fuses to half the lobby while working night shift at a hotel. I wanted to butter some toast and all the butter was in the fridge and rock-hard, so I thought “oh, I’ll microwave it for a few seconds.”

      Without taking off the foil.

      The spark was VERY impressive. The sound even more so. Oh, and the microwave was completely shot.

  155. Em*

    Recently found this tool at work: http://livingwage.mit.edu/
    It’s a living wage calculator. They offer a really clear explanation as to how they’ve reached these numbers, which vary by city:
    http://livingwage.mit.edu/resources/Living-Wage-User-Guide-and-Technical-Notes-2016.pdf

    I think this would be particularly useful for anyone relocating to an unknown city for work. As they explain in the technical documents, these figures don’t allow for things like savings or going out to eat at a restaurant, but they give a good basic idea of how much it costs to live somewhere.

    1. Beth Anne*

      Interesting. According to this if you are married where I live technically if one person made minimum wage and other other made above you’d be making “living wage” but I bet that number doesn’t take into effect the amount of debt so many people have.

      2. Em*

        I mean, obviously it’s a starting point, and you can use the information while taking into account your own situation.

        In the technical document they explain how everything is calculated. Debt is not included, nor is saving for retirement or building savings.

  156. Beth Anne*

    Does anyone use a planner/goal setting in your actual work vs just for home. I just bought the Powersheets Goal Setting Method and I’m def. going to be using it to set career goals. I also use a bullet journal and have career stuff in it as well as personal stuff.

  157. Amonynous*

    I hope it’s ok to ask another question? I know the rule about not giving gifts to those senior in the organisation, but is it ever ok to break that rule?

    I wanted to do something to thank my supervisor and manager. I have recently been diagnosed with a disability and both managers have been fantastic in looking out for me and granting some adjustments I have requested with no issues.

    I know this may be seen as part of their job to some, but I really appreciate how they listened to me and accommodated my needs.

    Any thoughts? Thank you.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think in this situation, the best thing to do is a card expressing your gratitude. Even an email works. From what I’ve read/experienced, the best gift a boss can get from an employee is a sincere expression of thanks. They like to hold onto those, and I think a pretty card with a hand written note would be a good choice.

    3. Michael Rochelle*

      I believe this depends on the nature of the relationship you have with your boss and the work culture in which you work. As I think someone else mentioned, a card may be enough.

      I can’t take credit for the following because it was pulled from
      https://www.thebalance.com/giving-your-boss-a-gift-guidelines-3515606. But I am in agreement with following suggestions:
      * Be Discreet: Deliver it privately without making a show in front of other employees or management.
      * Aim to Please – Not Impress: Keep the gift simple and sincere, and relatively inexpensive, and stay away from giving personal items.

  158. Argh!*

    Boss and Grand-boss have been keeping secrets from me, secrets that relate to the reorganization that’s coming up. All the other people who report to Boss are on the committee that’s tasked with engaging stake holders (along with other people). There’s also a committee that lines up with Head Mucky-muck’s mission statement that I would have brought a lot to, and certainly had more to offer than some of the people on the committee.

    Grandboss usually sends out company-wide emails about ad hoc committees, and for the big one that affects me there was an email that there *would* be a committee at some future date. Last week I asked Grandboss about it during a meeting with my boss and all her reports. When he answered, he didn’t look at me. So the next day I asked again when I saw him for something else. I even said “you weren’t looking at me so it was hard to hear.” At the same point in his explanation he looked away from me. There were no colleagues for him to look at so there’s no plausible deniability. But I really did believe him when he said the committee wasn’t established yet. Then yesterday I found out it was established several weeks ago.

    And in other news, a job that’s a step up opened about 90 miles from here. I now have something exciting to work on this weekend. An escape, a raise, and still being close to my friends and family. I think this cover letter will write itself.

  159. Anecdata*

    I’m curious what norms around severance are – how does it work at your company? Generally just for lay-offs or also for people who are fired? Is there a standard format or is it something you’re expected to negotiate?

    1. Delusions of Blandeur*

      My experience has been that getting fired does not include severance (aside from cashing out any unused PTO). Getting laid off should (imho), but may or may not. Some companies do severance in lieu of advance notice. Whether you can negotiate also varies by company and, possibly, your role/seniority. It also depends a lot on company policy and financial circumstances. When I was laid off as the result of massive staff cutbacks after the company had a terrible year financially, I received 10 days’ worth of severance. I was grateful for it, but other people have told me that was insultingly little.

      1. Argh!*

        But if you are a CEO making scads of money and you humiliate the company in a very public way, you get a buyout of millions of dollars!

    2. Epsilon Delta*

      My company did layoffs a few years ago and paid a week’s wages for every year you had worked at the company.

  160. Traveling Teacher*

    I have a friend—very intelligent and highly talented—who keeps getting qualifications or nearly getting them… and then decides a month or two in that she’s not a good fit for that type of work and moves on to something else. She’s studied everything from architecture to early childhood ed to surveying and has been talented and well-liked by colleagues in all of those positions.

    Every time, though, she quits just before applying to jobs after her internships. She always says that the jobs just “aren’t the right fit” for her. She’s currently working as a cashier—I’m so glad that she’s working and doing something! She’s held down this job for about two years now, which is really great. She’s continually hinted throughout, though, that she would like to go in to a “creative” field (like mine). I think that she’s chasing a white whale and is continually dissatisfied with her current job field because she’s expecting to find fulfillment and purpose in every. single. aspect. of her job.

    I’ve been avoiding her a bit over the last year, to be honest, because I got tired of her complaining about not being able to find “the right job for her.” However, we’ve been thrown together through a mutual weekly activity that a third friend just started up. She’s still chasing her dream job and is going to meetings with a career counselor to figure out what that should be (a country-provided service where I live. No idea how good it is).

    The next time she starts complaining about finding the “ideal job for her,” what do I do? Do I finally lay it all out there and say, “It doesn’t exist! Just choose something and do it!” Or, do I just ride it out and make sympathetic noises? I feel like perhaps I’ve done her a bit of a disservice by nodding along with all of these career changes to dubious “passionate” aims, but on the other hand, she’s an adult, and it’s her life, not mine!

    1. Argh!*

      There’s no such thing as an ideal job!

      She could go to one of those career counseling services, like Johnson O’Connor Research, which would test her for her aptitudes and make suggestions of career paths. It’s not cheap but it’s cheaper than tuition for courses you don’t plan to pursue.

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        Yes, she’s already getting career counseling on my country’s dime (I’m in the EU, not in the US).

        She’s fortunately not been paying for most of her courses, as education is basically free here–although it never occurred to me that that’s probably part of what’s not motivating her to get herself out of the classroom (I am from the US and still paying off my student loans)! She gets such excellent grades that she can basically qualify for most university programs and those programs are essentially free. She’s turning 30 soon, though, so I think that the tide might change as far as this is concerned. Maybe she should become a professional course auditor. Does that exist?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I don’t think you can help her. She’s addicted to going round and round the same hamster wheel. I have a friend who’s a bit like this and have learned to just let her get on with it.

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        I think you’re probably right @Ramona Flowers, but I guess I feel proximal guilt because it’s the same train wreck over and over…

    3. Anon anon anon*

      I think there’s a middle ground. I think you can have a real, honest conversation with her about it without saying everything that’s on your mind. Ask questions. I would say something like, “There is no ideal job. Have you thought about the kinds of sacrifices you’re ok with and what you’re not ok with? And how to make up for it in other areas of your life? What about trying a lot of different things outside of school and seeing what sticks?” Then tell her that you find the topic stressful and that you want to be supportive but don’t want to talk about it too much. If she brings it up again, say, “I’m sorry. That stresses me out,” and change the subject.

  161. AnotherAnon*

    I just got a job offer!! Woohoo!! Escape from a manager with weird ideas about boundaries and a dead end job!! More money!! Yay!!

    But. In everyone’s opinion, how unreasonable is my stance with the new company? I advised them my notice period was four weeks (according to my contract) and they advised that a contract would reach me in about two weeks. I let them know that I would hand my notice in on receiving the contract, and now they’re pushing for me to hand my notice in before I get the contract. All I have at the moment is a verbal offer.

    I don’t want to budge on this because this company has had several year end hiring freezes in the past and for all I know they could be gearing up for another, which would leave me having to backtrack and possibly ending up jobless. That’s not unreasonable, right?

    1. Fresh Faced*

      Congratulations on the job offer! I don’t think your stance is unreasonable at all. You shouldn’t have to risk your entire livelyhood just so the new company can have you start 2 weeks earlier. I would definitely reiterate to them that you can’t leave your job without a written contract, for your own security (I mean this is what contracts are for!) I hope everything works out well for you!

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      If they want you to resign sooner you need a written offer. You are absolutely wise not to resign based on a verbal one.

  162. Dr. Doll*

    Bit late to the party, but hoping any fellow faculty or HE people or even students can help me out:

    I’ve just found that the lecture portion of my class next term is scheduled to be taught *in the lab*. It’s a fine wet lab. It’s an awful, terrible, no good, very bad *classroom*, at least if I want to do traditional things like show slides or lecture. Of course I wasn’t planning to do that the entire time, but some of it will be necessary.

    There is no projection equipment, no computer, *no clear lines of sight to the small chalkboard for 3/4 of the students*, and I’m only 4 inches taller than the tops of the lab shelves, so I have to climb on a chair to be seen. As most of my friends know, I don’t have a booming voice, either.

    Yes, I’ll do the obvious: send a polite WTF email to the department chair, but let’s say that it’s not possible to relocate, which is likely to be the answer since the other section of this class is also scheduled the same way. We’re in a very significant space crunch.

    What’s my next plan?

    1. Traveling Teacher*

      I hear you. My classroom at a previous university teaching job got hijacked…by a machine the size of the room. The chair was apoplectic because they backdated and falsified the request paperwork to take over this room permanently, and I had actual proof that they’d done so without telling anyone over the summer months, but there was nothing that could be done after the fact. I ended up teaching in a computer lab, carrying my laptop and projector around myself and praying that no one would check the last one out.

      It’s terrible that this happened to you, a science prof, though (I’m in the humanities, we’re used to being last in the pecking order!) I would definitely start by emailing the chair or, better yet, if you have a good relationship with her, just grab her, take her to the classroom, and show her the dilemma.

      If you’re in a quiet hallway, you could always do short, mini lectures there or just have the students cluster around the front of the classroom. They’ll be annoyed that they don’t have chairs, sure, but at least they’ll be able to see and hear you! Or, is there a wall that isn’t near the chalkboard that would have better line of sight? You can project onto any blank wall with a portable projector and perhaps get a portable whiteboard for anything you need to write. None of this is ideal, obviously, so hopefully they can get you a more adapted classroom!

      1. Anna Held*

        Talk to your admin! Whoever actually does scheduling will have a line on what else is available, if anything. It could be a simple oversight.

    2. Student*

      Option 1: Book a recurring meeting in a conference room for the same time as your lab. Use the conference room when you need to lecture or show slides.

      Option 2: Rethink your lesson plan substantially. Showing slides and writing on the chalk-board extensively are not tradition. They are modern. People taught wet labs before the invention of PowerPoint. I learned wet chemistry in a classroom that was much like yours; we did a lot more actual wet lab work, plus homework assignments with reading expectations, rather than lectures. I learned more from the hands-on wet lab work than I did from most of my science lectures. Build in time for people to try things themselves (and fail, and then retry, like real science!). Give them exercises instead of exposition, and walk around the classroom to give one-on-one or one-on-few lessons as possible while they work.

  163. Nacho*

    We in the middle of a pretty major reorganization at my office, and one of the things we’re doing is focusing on “communication styles.” Everyone is either a driver, analytical, expressive, or amiable, and we’re being told things like how we need to flex our communication style, or that our style will impact how feedback is given to us.

    Anyone else’s office do anything like this? Is it as stupid as I’m thinking it is (like personality tests), or should I give it a chance?

    2. Nanc*

      I must be expressive because I have absolutely zero poker face and it would show during this exercise . . .
      That said, give it a chance. If you’re going through a major reorg they may just be trying to gather data in different ways. If you have good rapport with your boss or whoever is running this you could ask them why they chose this exercise/product/whatever and what they’d like to see as the ultimate outcome. If you express interest in see data or case studies or other outcome info you’re showing interest and if it’s something they’re going to implement you’ll get some clues as to how you can deal with however you’re tagged.

    3. ainomiaka*

      we did that same thing, I think. eh. .. talking about communication styles, how people are most receptive to feedback, etc. was really useful. Finding out what category they said you were, not so much. So, there can be value in the starting conversations as opposed to from the system itself.

    4. Crylo Ren*

      I did something similar with DISC assessments. We were supposed to post our results to the outside of our cubes so that people who walked in to talk to us would immediately know how best to communicate with us based on our personality type. i.e., if you were talking to a “C” type, you had to make sure you communicated very coolly and with numbers, vs. an “I” type for whom you should adopt more touchy-feely language. In reality it didn’t have much effect on our preexisting communication styles.

    5. Student*

      My company does this exact thing for communication styles.

      Ideally, it’s supposed to teach you how to communicate with your colleagues. If you find you are a driver/driver, but they are amiable/amiable, ideally you try to explain things to them in a way that appeals more to them and less to yourself. And they are supposed to try to relate things to you in your style a bit.

      In practice, people just stereotype and type-caste with it, or ignore it, or use it as a bludgeon, and it ends up being just as dumb as it sounds. I think of it as corporate horoscopes – something hokey the company wastes money on, but certain people buy into as a “quick solution” substitute for critical thinking and hard work.

    6. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      The best part about those is that the people are typically “difficult” to work with are also typically the people who get really annoyed with that kinda of stuff and get even more “difficult” to work with. Where “difficult” means direct and cut the BS. Kinda counterproductive.

    7. Argh!*

      In OldJob we did a lot of this kind of thing. I did find it helpful, even when the framework was hokey.

      In NewJob we don’t do that. At. All. And I’m having trouble with my boss, who doesn’t seem to “flex” for different people at all. She’s constantly judging me against her other reports, who are all more like herself. It’s soul-crushing to report to someone who has virtually no understanding or interest in psychology.

  164. TurquoiseSeas*

    I know I’m commenting late but does anyone have any advice for trying to figure out your next steps for your career when you don’t know what you want to do?

    A little background info: I’ve been struggling to find long-term employment in the past 2 years after graduating from university. I managed to get a few contracts and one-off event jobs but have been unemployed most of the time, especially for all of the year so far. I decided to apply for a private course with hands-on work and was accepted. It involves graphic design and I really like it and I’m doing well in the class. Along with my customer service, research (from my university course work) and organizational skills, I’m at a loss of what jobs to look for when the course ends next month. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could gain some footing on what to do next?

      1. TurquoiseSeas*

        The link looks useful on stuff you’d do as a graphic designer but I’m Canadian so some of this info doesn’t apply to me, mainly the stats. Thanks for the link, though.

    2. zora*

      Can you look for some internships through school? The nice thing about doing an internship or two, is you would get to do different tasks and you would get a better idea of things you do and don’t like to do.

      The other thing I would do is reach out to some older adults you like and respect and ask for some advice. Tell them what you said above, but then give them a list of things you do like and things you don’t like, and ask if they have advice about what in their industry to look into for jobs. I know it feels weird to ask for help like this, but really, most people like to be helpful!! And I think you will be surprised that people are happy to have coffee and talk about their industry a bit.

      I know it’s super hard, so best of luck!

      1. TurquoiseSeas*

        I’m no longer in school and haven’t been for 2 years so I’m ineligible for the majority of the internships I come across and interested in. I also did a bunch of informational interviews and joined networking events 2 years before I graduated and afterwards as well to no avail.

        I’m thinking of doing one or two informational interviews before the holidays but my main thing is that I really need money right now so I think I’ll have to put things off until the new year.

  165. ainomiaka*

    I have to ask this quick, because it just came up. I got offered an interview for an internal position next week. I am interested, but only if they pay me a lot. I have said this informally to the only person on the hiring committee that I have enough of a relationship with to make it come up naturally instead of being weird, but I don’t know if he passed it on to anyone, and I don’t think I’m going to be able to ask before said interview (we have a big government audit next week that will take all of everyone’s time and energy). As far as I know after offers have been crafted it’s pretty hard to get them changed, but I know that talking about money at the first interview stage is supposed to be a no no. On the other hand, if the money answer is no, I’d rather just build up tenure years at my current position. And it may be no because of budget, or because of transfer hiring rules. Is there a good way to bring this up? Should I bring it up?
    I work in a state government lab, if that makes any difference.

    1. Nanc*

      If you’re in a government institution salaries are public information. You just need to locate the budget doc and find the closest position to what you’re going for. Some docs only give the actual current salary of who’s in the position so you may have to hunt around for the salary range.

      1. ainomiaka*

        I appreciate the response. I should add-this is less about finding general salary range(which you’re right, is public) and more about I’d only want pretty close to the top of their range.

        1. Nanc*

          Oh, different kettle of fish. Depending on the agency, sometimes you can find breakdowns of what skills in a job make them classify you as, entry, middle and expert level. Years of experience, certain certificates, etc.

          Good luck!

  166. katniss1*

    Help! I just received a formal offer letter with a start date, contingent upon background check / drug screen. It is with a large, reputable company and I don’t anticipate any problems coming up with the check (no skeletons in the closet).

    When should I give notice at my current job? Should you wait for the new employer to tell you the contingencies are clear or just go off the contingent offer letter?

    I am concerned about potentially not being able to give my current employer proper notice since the new company wants me to start on Nov 27 and it also feels like the timing is very tight. They did mention this was the start date when they called me about a week and a half ago to discuss the offer and I wish I’d made an issue of it then. I think it might have taken longer than expected for them to get me a written offer letter; now I feel like I’m having cold feet with such an imminent start date, when I have 2 weeks notice plus a relocation to deal with.

    1. ainomiaka*

      most places I have been hired by are pretty willing to work with “I need to give two weeks notice.” Can you call and say that the 27th worked a week and a half ago, but it took long enough that you’re in jeopardy of not being able to give reasonable notice(that is not a polished version, obviously)

      1. katniss1*

        Do you think they are expecting me to give my notice based on their contingent offer, or is it normal for someone to want to wait for contingencies to clear before giving notice? I am not worried about the checks turning anything up, but would honestly welcome the extra time to be able to move with less of a time crunch. The time factor is stressing me out (it doesn’t help that my dream company contacted me for an interview yesterday, so I am not sure if part of my cold feet comes from that).

        1. ainomiaka*

          waiting for a full offer is pretty normal. I don’t know if universal, but you’re not out of the realm of reasonable.

    2. Student*

      You don’t have to go into detail. Just ask if you can start on the date you want. No need to go into specifics, or say anything beyond “Since I just got the official offer now, can we push the start date out to {whatever day}? I’m willing to be flexible based on your needs, but this would suite my timeline better”.

      Assume the offer is firm if you have no concerns about the background and drug checks and they are setting a start date.

    3. Colette*

      I’d ask if you can finalize a start date once the background check is done. They can take a long time, and you don’t want to quit without knowing it’s done.

      (I once had a “quick” background check take 2+ weeks, even though I’d been doing the job for 2 years.)

  167. Flourescent Lights*

    Who else gets a weird reaction to flourescent lights? How do you deal with it at work?

    I have trouble concentrating when I’m around them for too long. I get that spaced out / can’t focus feeling as if I was really tired. I haven’t found a good solution yet. I just end up drinking a lot of coffee, which doesn’t help. It makes it hard for me to do good work while in the office.

    1. nep*

      Yes — I am not comfortable being in fluorescent office lights for a long time. At my place of (very part-time) work, I’m drawn to the office of one colleague; she’s got those damned fluorescent ceiling lights off and the room is lit by a couple simple floor lamps. All the difference in the world. It’s glorious.

    2. ST*

      I was lucky enough for the past decade that I had an office where I could kill the flouros and bring in some incandescents. I got partially moved a couple months ago (i.e., I have two workspaces now) into a flouro-only area. Fortunately the small recessed area that I partially share with another guy has mostly burned out lights AND he actually prefers to work in the dark (he’s a designer and says the lights mess up his color perception). Doesn’t address your problem, I know.

      Are you in a shared space? Could you change the lighting? There are different color-temperature fluorescent bulbs.

  168. Gigi*

    I am 2 weeks into a new job and have a ton of projects already and am feeling a little over-whelmed. It’s my first manager role (although I don’t have anyone reporting to me). Aside from the day to day work, my boss has tasked me with creating the company’s internal communications plan and presenting it 3 weeks from now.
    I originally wanted time to meet with internal leaders, talk with employees and fully understand the needs of the company. But I feel like I’m already drowning in all the other work! Is this a normal feeling in a new job? My last job was very slow-paced so that’s part of my adaption, too.
    Also I’m out of the office at work events every day but Monday next week then the following week is short due to the holiday.
    Any advice appreciated!

  169. evie*

    I just started my job a couple months ago. Before I started my desk was sort of like storage for my co-workers. Most of them took their stuff back, except for the guy who sits next to me. 3 or 4 boxes of his are still in my cubicle. Now, they’re not big and it’s *not* a huge deal, but it is kind of annoying. He’s nice, but can be quick to temper so I’m afraid to ask him about it, but I don’t know what to do. Any ideas?

    1. katniss1*

      Are his boxes on the floor or on your desk? You could get something that would take up that space, like one of those inflatable exercise balls that some people like to sit on at work. Then just ask him where you should stash his boxes so you can make room for it.

    3. Anon anon anon*

      Act like you’re helping him. “Hey John! Would you like your boxes back?” If he acts weird about it, just say you don’t want to spill coffee on them or forget that they’re his or inconvenience him in any way.

  170. Jessen*

    Is there a way to explain to one’s company how not to piss off your night shift? Holding a 2h mandatory benefits meeting with options being 9am or 1pm is guaranteed to piss off your night shift, especially if we have to work both nights around it. Also the meeting really doesn’t need to be 2h long, kindly ask your HR people to get to the point.

    1. Argh!*

      Do you have a union? That’s the kind of thing management would be willing to put into the next contract. It’s a relatively inexpensive “give” to pay an HR person a bit of overtime to meet with you during your scheduled hours.

  171. Radiance*

    My new boss is extremely defensive, and takes my politely-worded suggestions as personal attacks. The other day, when I asked him if I could streamline the paper filing system (which hasn’t been updated in more than a decade, and is such a mess that it takes me forever to find anything) he suddenly rounded on me and shouted “you’re trying to change everything around here!” Um, no. I’m just trying to become a more efficient employee. But okay, have it your way. From now I’ll keep my mouth shut. After all, I’m not being paid to think.

    1. Argh!*

      I got pushback on that too. We have a lot of ossified upper management who are extremely resistant to change. Also, authoritarian workplaces reeeeeally don’t appreciate suggestions for improvement. They are more top-down than bottom-up in a lot more ways than you’d think.

      1. Radiance*

        Yep, I’m finding that out the hard way. It’s such a disappointing contrast to my previous (younger, female) bosses who were always open to feedback and suggestions from their staff. :-(

  172. Anon anon anon*

    Dude. I need a job. Or at least I think I do. I have a low paying, no glory freelance stop gap thing and a side business that is doing well. I’m tempted to focus on growing the side business instead of looking for a 9-5 type job. It is a lot of work, but it’s fun work.

    I keep mulling over my 9-5 type job options and nothing seems that appealing at face value. I’ve been out of that world for several years now. The longer it’s been, the better I’ve felt. I really enjoy being self employed even though I’m just scraping by. And yet the financial cushion and benefits sure would be nice.

    What do you all think? Formally start a business or find an office job and keep the side business on the side?

    1. Argh!*

      It’s the sign-up period for ACA benefits. Look into that to see if you could swing it with that for your medical benefits. You can set up retirement on your own, and you’ll have as much or as little vacation as you need, so if ACA would fill that insurance gap, I say go for it!

  173. Fear in Retail*

    I work in retail. Last month, at a staff meeting, one of my co-workers raised an issue about a semi-regular customer who was making her uncomfortable – nothing overt, but staring at her in a creepy way. Several others chimed in to say that he’d behaved in a similar way towards them, or made sexual comments. (I’ve had only one run-in with him – he walked up behind me and rapped his knuckles on the counter to make me jump. Annoying, but not menacing.) Our supervisor told us that this guy was actually a convicted sex offender who had attempted to assault an employee at a different branch of the store (he broke into the employees-only women’s washroom and waited in there until someone walked in) but upper management accepted his explanation that it was a “misunderstanding” and wouldn’t ban him from the store. Our supervisor told us to come and get her if this guy was making us feel uncomfortable.

    That’s not all. We had another repeat customer who my supervisor referred to as “the reason [co-worker] can’t work at the front of the store anymore,” who would routinely offer his number unsolicited to female employees. And last week, I noticed a guy who seemed to be hassling other customers (I got close enough to hear him making a sales pitch to them) and alerted the supervisor on duty. She told me that the guy had been in the store before, and that I should “help him with whatever he needs, and try not to make him angry.” She didn’t elaborate.

    Give all this, I went to one of the other managers (we have several, and this one just happened to be the one on duty that day) and asked him what the company policy was on employee safety when dealing with customers who had previously posed a threat. He told me that “employee and customer safety is [the company’s] top priority” and “if a situation arises where an employee feels threatened, a manager will step in.” I asked him specifically about these three incidents – he didn’t speak to the sex offender or the Hulk, but said that the guy handing out his number was “a little flirty.”

    What options do I have here? Does the management have any obligation to take proactive action by banning these men from the store? Obviously they can’t anticipate every problem customer, but the fact that they know these men have a pattern of harrassment/threatening behaviour and won’t act to keep us safe makes me feel really uneasy at work. Especially since, if we hadn’t raised the issue in the first place, we would have had no idea that they were potentially threatening.

    (It probably goes without saying that we’re all part-time, and do not have a union.)

    1. Thlayli*

      I think you should go to your local police station and ask to make an appointment to talk to someone about this and if there’s anything that can be done legally. If the cops say it’s not their area ask a lawyer. There might be something that can legally be done, I don’t know.
      And start looking for another job

      2. Fear in Retail*

        I asked my mother, who is a lawyer, and she says that workers have a right to refuse unsafe working conditions, meaning I can refuse to approach these men if they’re in the store. As far as she knows, there’s no law where I live (Ontario) that can force businesses to ban individuals from the premises.

    2. Traveling Teacher*

      I am SO sorry you’re dealing with this. Besides Thlayli’s suggestion of going to the police, make sure that you document everything possible with times, dates, detailed descriptions of what these guys are doing, etc. Send emails to yourself (not on a work computer), also make a copy of your records and mail it back to yourself. You want to have as much documentation as possible, especially of this pattern of management’s inaction in regards to your safety.

      For the sex offender in particular, that is crazy and insane that they wouldn’t, at a minimum, ban him from the store. Shouldn’t he also have some sort of parole conditions? He may have already violated them. I hope that you can get him out of there asap!

    3. Thlayli*

      Also – can you join a union? Where I live there is a countrywide union that any employee in any business can join. Maybe there is an existing union you can join who would talk to management on your behalf. You could call and ask them to send out a rep to talk to you all and ask the rep what the union could do about this situation.

      1. Bacon Pancakes*

        I worked for the Second Largest retailer in the USA for seven years. If you HEAR union talk you are required to report it. And the “team member safety” policy is a solid Do Not Approach. Which is why asset protection is a joke.
        I was physically threatened on the job over soda on sale (limit to x twelve packs per customer) and two of my large and manly cashiers had to stand behind me while I calmly and rationally explained the policy to someone screaming at me. No manager would respond even when I called a Code Blue.

        1. Thlayli*

          Isn’t the right to join a union a legally protected right in the USA?

          Everything I read on this site about how workers are treated in America just keeps blowing my mind.

          1. Bacon Pancakes*

            There is a great documentary about Wal-Mart workers attempt to unionize and the struggles they have faced. I highly recommend it.

        2. Observer*

          If that policy is in writing, report it to the NLRB. That’s a slam dunk.

          And, while “do not approach” may make asset protection a joke, it does keep people more safe.

          1. Bacon Pancakes*

            Except not in the OP’s case, nor in the example I provided. The Op stated that they are still required to assist a customer who is creepy and has assaulted employees at other stores. In my example, I was providing service and screamed at for stating policy. If someone is harassing employees and you are told to help them because they are a customer, “Do Not Approach” is not a valid policy.

            1. Observer*

              In the OP’s case the policy on unions is flatly illegal, and if reported to the NLRB, the company WILL lose. And, they don’t have a “do not approach policy”, so obviously it doesn’t keep them safe.

              In your case, it sounds like a “solid Do not approach” is not an accurate description of the policy, so, again, it’s not relevant. If there actually IS a “solid do not approach policy” that keeps people safer, but if it’s just a sham, that’s a different story.

  174. Curious*

    Question, I have been dealing with a flirtatious male colleague who finally backed off when I told him I don’t take gifts from married men. Recently I ran into him outside of work and when he spotted me he called my name and smiled and I just smiled back, and jokingly told him not to spend all his money, and I kept walking. Then as I walked on by I realized his wife was nearby because she looked at him and then looked at me. So at that point I smiled at her too, waved and said nice to meet you, and kept walking. She just looked, slightly smiled, but never said anything. This just felt very awkward as I have glimpsed his wife on a few occasions but was never close enough to be introduced. Again his flirting has eased up, but I just felt awkward because I felt he should have introduced us. Now, I have this paranoia that he still has some type of underlying motives. Should I continue to be cautious?

  175. JD*

    The following occurred many years ago, early in my career but my mind often wanders to this incident and I am curious on all of your thoughts. Company I worked for constantly was changing their performance review system. Employees would spend weeks, think 6 plus weeks, creating a document explaining their accomplishments that had to follow a very strict format and reference a book that I frankly cannot remember. This struck me as nutty from day one as you are taking your employees away from actual work for HUGE amounts of time.

    One year they decide to change it up, AGAIN, and in an all staff meeting explain the three levels and that level 1 is (oh i dunno) a 1% raise and it goes up from there, three tiers. Then they go on to say “NO one will ever reach the highest tier”. My thought was, um ok, way to motivate! I was pretty young and new to the workforce at the time but it seemed weird even then.

    I eventually learned that the only time they gave this “glorious 3% raise was pretty much when they were promoting someone and would give them the full raise only then and in lieu of an actual pay increase for the promotion.

    This was a non profit but a very healthy one if that matters. I don’t have a ton of experience with performance reviews as I have since worked for small business and now own my own business. I suppose it is better to say I am not familiar with performance reviews of larger companies. This org was ony about 100 employees but behaved like a much larger company in these regards.

    Is this as back assword as I think it is? To tell your employees that they will never meet the highest level? It felt so awful to me. Why try harder when I know I will only ever get the middle tier max and unless you were truly lacking that is what you would receive.

  176. Chaordic One*

    Back in early October I applied for a part-time seasonal retail job with a chain that has a store in the town where I live. The corporate website specifically stated that they had openings in the town where I live and that’s what I applied for. I received a prompt response saying that they no longer had openings in my town, but they did have openings in several distant suburbs of a neighboring city, all on the other side of the city. Since the job didn’t pay that well, I decided not to apply for them since it really wouldn’t be worth the time and expense of the commute.

    This week I get another email that appears to be computer generated from the company saying that they again have openings in the town where I live. It seems weird to me that they apparently want me to apply again. Shouldn’t they be able to go back to the application I made a month ago and set up some sort of interview for me without my having to apply again? It kind of seems like a red flag.

    1. soupmonger*

      Not really. It’s a big employer and things like advertising for staff will be doe. At the corporate, head-office level. You’re expecting them to have kept your application (or remember you applied) for a job you didn’t accept. That’s unrealistic. Just re-apply.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      For seasonal retail it’s unrealistic to expect them to keep everyone’s application
      (try to remember it’s not just you) but you can just resend the same stuff.

  177. Alice*

    I just read a twelve-page document that my organization put together about recruitment and retention – and in the twelve pages, guess how many times it mentions compensation? That’s right, zero.
    ??!!!

  178. Overeager applicant*

    I have a dilemma: I found a great position at a great company that my friend’s husband works for. I immediately reached out to my friend to see if he could refer me. I applied for the job, indicating I was a referral, and also sent my resume to my friend. My friend told me that her husband would try to figure out who was the leader for the team I applied to and send them my resume directly. It’s been several days since I applied through the company website and I think I found the person who leads the team I applied for on LinkedIn. I really want to follow up on this job application but don’t want to appear like a nag. Should I reach back out to my friend’s husband to tell him I think I found the team leader? Or should I reach out the team leader over LinkedIn and let him know I applied for the job and am very interested? Or nothing? I think I know the answer but sitting around and waiting to hear back is driving me nuts :)

    1. Thlayli*

      Ask your friend if husband sent it on yet. And if not tell her the name of the person you think he should send it to.
      I don’t know the norms in your industry so maybe it’s ok to contact the manager, but in my industry and location that would be way out of line. So I wouldn’t recommend it.

  179. Kathlynn*

    When job searching, how do you deal with tasks that you no longer are able to do. Like, I’ve asthma, and after the forest fires this summer my asthma has not returned to its prior normal. And I’m finding that I’m much more sensitive to certain potential triggers then before. And two of my triggers involve my job. The first, cleaning I usually have to wear a mask while using or being close to the vapours, otherwise I’m unable to breathe properly. The second is that I find that it’s not just what’s in the air, but how much of it. Like I’m not allergic or sensitive to wheat/flour products or deep fryer oil, but when the cooks are cooking I find my asthma being trigger. It’s even worse if I have to enter the room.
    I’m just not sure how to mention these, especially ad I’m going to be avoiding any jobs with deep fryer cooking if at all possible.

      1. Kathlynn*

        No, when I went to my family doctor this summer he just had me use my steroid inhaler more. I spent the summer wearing a mask so I could do my job. Wasn’t fun. Especially dealing with customer comments about it (oh do you have [infectious disease]). His only advice was to come back if my cough became productive or felt like it should be.

  180. Argh!*

    Do you have a union? That’s the kind of thing management would be willing to put into the next contract. It’s a relatively inexpensive “give” to pay an HR person a bit of overtime to meet with you during your scheduled hours.

  181. Tee*

    I have a feeling that my assistant manager is going to chat with me soon about how “appreciated” I feel at work, she wanted us to fill out a survey and one of the questions was about how appreciated we feel on a scale from 1 to 5. I chose a 2, because I really don’t feel appreciated at all. HOWEVER, I really don’t know what I could suggest to help me feel appreciated… I guess , maybe, actually THANKING me for doing things or commenting on what I do? I’m not sure what other ways there are. My love language (lol) is “gifts,” and I can’t say… give me things, and that’s not what I want! I kind of regret being honest and I know I’m worrying about nothing.

    1. Bacon Pancakes*

      Well I definitely wouldn’t go in saying “GIVE ME STUFF!!” but I would take some time to think of two or three instances where you went above and beyond and didn’t even get a “Thank you for the extra effort.” And it should be focused on the extra effort, because your ‘reward’ for just showing up and getting the 9-5 work done is your paycheck, but if Sally was out and you had to come in over the weekend and add cover sheets to all her TPS reports, you should get a thank you.
      But if your company doesn’t have any form of acknowledgement, I would recommend a few. A “good job” board made my meaningless retail job so much nicer to know that someone noticed my extra help. And everyone who was acknowledged got entered in for like a $10 starbucks card at the end of the month. Quarterly “thank you” snack bars in the break room are a great gesture. But make sure to think of ways that ALL employees can benefit, not just you! Otherwise, yeah, it kinda looks like you are trying to get gifts lol

  182. Mimmy*

    I know there’s a ton of posts already, but I just thought of another question. Topic: Alumni receptions

    I’m probably going to be attending an alumni reception in a couple of weeks at the school where I got my masters 10 years ago. I’ve attended these events before and know that I’ll get the inevitable “what are you doing now?”–I could use a script to get across that I am still very career-minded, but just not at the point I’d hoped for.

    My current job is probably WELL beneath what might be expected of someone 10 years post-masters. I am aiming higher…it’s just that, prior to this job, I didn’t have significant employment since 2010. Between then and now, I did engage in significant volunteer work (council membership, reviewing grant proposals) and earned a graduate certificate. I’ve even contemplated pursuing a PhD with the goal of writing and researching about my areas of interest.

    For context, most of the people I seem to encounter at these receptions are faculty and alumni who pursued career tracks different from what I’m interested in. Some of faculty are ones who I’ve had as professors – I worry that they’ll think, “Can’t she get her act together and make up her mind on a career path??”

  183. Lauren R*

    So this question is probably pretty played out at this point but: I have a coworker who doesn’t have a car. He asks me for rides pretty often and I can usually get out of it by just citing the fact that we are getting off at different times that day or saying I have plans or something. But he does know I live in the same direction as him so I’m an obvious person to ask. He lives a 5 minute drive from work and I live about 15-20, and objectively dropping him off really wouldn’t be too big of a burden. I do like this coworker and think he’s a nice person and he’s always been understanding when I’ve said no. He’s fairly young (living at home and going to school) and saving up for a car with his mom’s help but she works nights and can’t pick him up, so his options are ride with a friend or coworker or take an Uber which he’s assured me he can afford (his paycheck isn’t going towards food/housing/etc but to saving for a car and other expenses) but obviously when he has to pay for an Uber home most times he works that cuts into his car fund. There isn’t a bus he can take and it’s not really safe to bike or walk because the area is fairly rural (not many streetlights) and the roads are narrow and the speed limit is pretty high.

    Basically my question is: am I wrong to say no when he asks when it’s such a small favor and do you think he’ll hold it against me? I guess my main reason for saying no is such a silly one that I feel guilty for it. A big reason I feel so awkward giving him a ride is that my car is a mess most of the time and my dog rides to the park in there which means it probably has a dog smell (I don’t notice it but I live with a dog so that’s not too surprising). I really am the type who likes to keep work and personal separate and just worry that opening up that admittedly small but messy part of my life for scrutiny from a coworker will affect how I’m seen by him at work. Again that’s so silly and I could push through it for a friend or something, but I just can’t get past the anxiety of it with a coworker. I also like getting to relax on the way home and listen to music and such, though technically I could do that the last 10-15 minutes of the ride so maybe that’s not a real reason to say no. And I kind of worry that if I say yes once I’ll be on the hook for always saying yes.

    Should I find a way to work through it and say yes anyway? Again he’s very nice and I want to help if I can but I’m sort of at the point of dreading working at the same time as him because he may ask me for a ride even if he never pressures me for one.

    How do I say no without feeling awful? Or how do I say yes without feeling awful? If I’m being honest I’m really just hoping for “permission” to say no and for someone to say my reasons aren’t bad ones. But objectively they probably aren’t great ones either and I probably should just say yes and help him out. It’s just stressful. I go work in an hour and am already wondering how I’ll say no if he’s there and hoping he won’t be, even though I like working with him otherwise.

    2. Thlayli*

      You are not obliged to give anyone a lift ever, and it kind of sounds like you just don’t want to but are using the “my car is too messy” as an excuse. If you don’t want to then you don’t have to. Full stop.
      However just in case you are telling the truth and the reason is because you are worried about the mess; Some people have messy cars. It’s a common thing. It doesn’t mean you are a bad worker or a bad person and I’m sure he will be aware of the phenomenon since he’s probably been in messy cars before. I really doubt he will judge you as a person or a worker over it, and his impression of you would definitely be more informed by the fact you give him a lift.

    3. AnonAndOn*

      “If I’m being honest I’m really just hoping for “permission” to say no and for someone to say my reasons aren’t bad ones.”

      The only person who should be giving you permission to say “no” is you. It’s not your responsibility to worry about how he gets to and from work.

    4. Anon anon anon*

      I have been on both sides of that situation. When I didn’t have a car, I really appreciated rides but didn’t feel entitled to them. It’s their car, not yours. If you don’t own a car, you don’t get rides unless someone chooses to give you one.

      Now that I have a car, I always know a few people who think I owe them rides because I have a car and they don’t. But these are always non-essential rides (to some social thing, not work or basic life stuff) and I always see the same people spending money on things they don’t need. They could have a car if they made it a higher priority.

      So what I’m saying is, this is entitlement. I mean if he’s making you feel pressured. Either way, do what you feel comfortable with and don’t feel bad about it.

    5. Theodoric of York*

      As Thayli says, you are not required to give anyone a ride in your car. That being said, it doesn’t sound as though your coworker is making a pest of himself. Has his attitude towards you changed because of your messy, smelly car?

      The extra work involved in giving him a lift doesn’t sound onerous. Where I live, the driver controls the radio, and whether there is an extended conversation in the car. It might be healthy for you to get a little out of your comfort zone.

      Again: the bottom line is that you absolutely don’t have to give anyone a ride, and you don’t have to feel guilty either way.

  184. Shayland*

    I’m sorry I’m so late to this and I’ll likely repost next week to get a wider response if needed.

    Anyway, I just turned 21 and am in the hospital. I was perscriped alcohol (no, seriously) to try and trigger seizures. Since I was alone for my first drink I ended up filming it and would like to use the footage to make a bit of vlog about going through an EEG and the effects alcohol has on medications reactions and seizures. As well as an informational video about drinking responsibly and general info about alcohol.

    This was my first drink and I had a lot of questions that no one could answer for me about what it would be like. I know that for everyone it’s going to be there own experience and therefor different but I still think a video like this would have been helpful. I’m also trying to create platform to continue my educational and public speaking work online in the format of a vlog where I can deliver both educational and personal snippets on various topics.

    Anyway, I was talking with my mom about this and she strongly advises me not to post on any platform containing my real name or information easily traced back to me. And I’m wondering if you agree. So far, it’s been important to me to be a somewhat easily identifiable “real person” in the online sphere I operate in (not here). So this would make a big different.

    Also, please excuse typos as my BAC is currently .04

    1. Sam Foster*

      Post nothing on the internet that can be traced back to you. EVER. Don’t even post pictures of your environment because there are people who will use that information to try and track you down. I’ve never understood why but this has been a negative facet of internet culture forever and has only gotten worse because the tools needed to identify people have become automated to the point where almost any one can use them.

      Literally post nothing: No names, no addresses, no names of diseases, no names of drugs, no names of hospitals, no references to neighborhoods or cities, NOTHING.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Agree agree agree agree agree.

        The internet can be a very scary place. Don’t tempt it if you can :)

    2. LCL*

      At the time of posting, you were suffering one of the effects that alcohol is famous for. That is, the drinker will entertain grand plans and future fantasies that seem like a good idea at the time. After one sobers up, one realizes that maybe some of those ideas weren’t such good ideas. If this was your first time drinking, with that BAC, you were definitely impaired.

      Now that you have sobered up, you should be able to separate the good part of your ideas from the bad. More education=good. I’m sure there are nonprofits that you can engage with if you wish to volunteer. Publicly identifiable=bad, at least for now. Mom is right in this case-you would be opening yourself up to nastiness.

  185. Fresh Faced*

    Late question! I think there may have been a AAM about this but I can’t seem to find it. How do I got about applying to a company that I previously applied to and was interviewed for? The new position is for the same role that I applied to previously, but remote based and short term (10 weeks). Do I have to write a standard cover letter, or is a quick: Hi I noticed you had a new role up, I’ve interviewed here before and here are some updates on what I’ve been up to in between enough?

  186. Fake old Converse shoes*

    I’m super jealous of a friend. He was accepted in a part-time paid internship at a important company that I applied to four/five years ago. Back when I applied, I had about the same skillset he has now, but I was rejected for not being a Software/System Engineer or CS student, even though the ad said clearly they wouldn’t reject applications based on academic qualifications or lack thereof (basically they encouraged anyone with any kind of experience in the field to apply). What’s more, he’s going to be paid as much as I am for a full time job! It’s sad that the first thing that I thought when he told us was sexism rather than skillset, since that company is the only one in its market that doesn’t exclude women from the non-workshop positions. I only wish the internship to be what was advertised, and not a mere excuse to exploit and burnout someone with little to no professional experience.

    1. Sam Foster*

      Righteous indignation may feel good but it is generally based on an incomplete set of facts. It’s time for you to let go of your resentment and either be happy for your friend or cut them out of your life because you are poisoning yourself.

  187. YHR*

    I am interviewing with a company that gets some pretty bad reviews on Glassdoor, most of which seem to be from a department completely unrelated to where I’d be working. I would love to get some examples of probing questions to ask to see how much of a red flag these reviews should be. Thanks!

  188. Nic*

    Probably too late to the party to get any discussion, but this happened today and I need to get it out.

    I have a colleague, same title, opposite days, same hours. We have interacted less than 20 hours total.
    The other day he asked as he was leaving “can I have a hug baby girl?” which made me uncomfortable.

    Tonight I reminded him via text (common communication for work stuff, as we have no access to email outside the office) of my upcoming days off. “I got you for your vacation days baby girl.”

    I replied “Thanks. No harm, but I’m really not comfortable with being called that. Please don’t.”
    Then I showed it to a friend, because I was proud of standing up for myself, and this friend has talked about helping me do so.

    “Wow. That was harsh. I don’t think I’d have done that via text. Most people don’t really mean anything by it when they say it that way.” he said. And because we’re at equal levels, it’s fine, like calling someone “honeychile”, it’s just being fun and friendly.

    1. We barely know each other; I can count our interactions in hours. Would you call some dude you barely know “baby boy?”
    2. That’s a very pet name kind of term. He and I aren’t dating. See #1.
    3. We’re coworkers. Would you call your coworker “baby boy”?

    If it’s not okay to do that, then why is it okay to do this?

    He told me I was overreacting. Maybe I am. But I don’t think it’s professional and most importantly IT TOTALLY SQUICKED ME OUT AND MADE ME NOT WANT TO INTERACT WITH THIS COWORKER. Schrodinger’s rapist, yo.

    Frustrated by that close friend defending someone who made me uncomfortable, who he doesn’t even know.

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think you handled it well. I don’t know what your friend’s deal is, but “baby girl” is not okay in a work environment from my perspective. Thank you for saying something!

    2. Yorick*

      No one ever calls guys “baby boy,” which shows you that “baby girl” is an inappropriate thing to call a coworker.

      Also, coworkers shouldn’t ask each other for hugs.

      Your friend is a man, right? That’s why he thinks it’s no big deal.

  189. Kataki*

    Hi All,

    First time poster with a very strange topic but a very real situation.

    My Co-worker keeps photo shopping my head onto celebrities bodies. Most recently Tom Cruise hanging from a moving plane along with Morpheus in the Dojo in the Matrix

    So i thought best course of action would be to tell our boss however it seems that he is not phased by this and decided to photo shop our boss onto Harry (One of the sticky bandits from Home Alone … not the little wizard boy)

    After this i then decided to go all the way to the top and just speak directly with our MD (We are only a small firm so hes normally available to speak with). Again this did not phase him and he seemingly didn’t break stride by photo shopping the MD’s face onto the villain from the quest of Camelot.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think you need to tell your coworker directly and firmly that you don’t want them to photo shop your head onto anything. It doesn’t have to be a big deal, and you don’t have to explain why you take issue with it. Just say something along the lines of, “Please don’t photo shop my picture onto anything. Thanks!” It sounds like plenty of other people think it’s funny and willingly participate, but that doesn’t mean you have to.

      1. Kataki*

        Many thanks for the response.

        I can not believe that i am actually having this conversation.

        Bit of an update. I took your advice on this one and approached him about this and said “Can you stop photo shopping my head onto famous film characters such as Dr Evil, Anikin Skywalker , Marty McFly and Frodo Bagins”

        He responded with “Its okay man you look cool… everyone thinks you are a stunt man from hollywood, you should probably start doing some cool running jumps around the office ” then ended the conversation with “don’t worry i will re-do the one with Tom Cruise”… like he was doing me a favor.

        I have also just discovered that he has replaced my business cards while i have been away to read…

        MY NAME
        MY COMPANY
        MY TEL NUMBER
        JOB TITLE – STUNTMAN

        Now i wouldn’t mind to much about this it did make me chuckle but i have been giving these out to clients for over a month as well as the recent expo that i attended.

        Really stuck on this one :(

        Thanks

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          People are strange… If he keeps going with any of this (photo shop, replacing business cards, etc.) just keep repeating, “I asked you not to do this. Why is it still happening?” It doesn’t have to sound angry, just confused. Because that’s the reaction this warrants: genuine confusion. Good luck!

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