open thread – November 17-18, 2017

by Alison Green on November 17, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Santa's Bag Of Goodies*

    I left a job in the spring for a new job but I was thinking about my old work as the holidays roll around. I’ve been debating sending a gift to my old office (an Edible Arrangement or some other kind of food basket, they were always a big hit in my old office because it was a rare treat) to let them know I’m still thinking of them.

    However several of my friends are against it. One said that if I do it this year, this first holiday season that I’m not there, then I’m committing myself to sending them a gift for the rest of forever. That if I stop giving them a holiday basket, they’ll think I’ve decided not to be friendly with them anymore. Another said it looks too much like a bribe to be a good reference in the future.

    I do genuinely want to send them something to keep in touch. The team wasn’t big on cards so that would be easily glossed over; but sending a basket of edibles would make them so happy. Should I go for it or just let it go?

    1. Meg*

      I think that this is a nice gesture that will be well-taken with your former coworkers. If you left on good terms, then it’s not a bribe, it’s just a gift. And there’s certainly nothing making you do it yearly – what are they going to do if you stop, ignore you in the office? Do it! I think it’s sweet.

    2. Lisa B*

      I’m with your friends but for different reasons. Unless y’all were REALLY close, it would be odd to get a substantial gift from a former employee. I know you said they weren’t big on cards, but I do think that’s a good idea. “Thinking of you all and hoping things are well!” is a nice short and sweet message. You could also do an e-mail just to your old boss expressing about the same sentiment. Keeping in touch is very important (when you need references again down the road), but you don’t have to send “a thing” to do that.

      1. Natalie*

        I don’t know that I would consider a food basket or Edible Arrangements thing a substantial gift? There are a lot of inexpensive options for both.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      You’ll have to be the judge of the culture of your office, but everywhere I’ve worked this would be a nice gesture with no downside.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think that in general it’s understood that a “Miss you!” message is most appropriate shortly after a separation, and doesn’t obligate you to keep gifting. You miss someone/something most when you first separate, and generally it gets easier as time passes.

      I’d probably do it, but I’m pretty friendly with a lot of my team, even outside of work.

      1. Say what, now?*

        Yes, I agree with Cosmic Avenger. The short length of time since the separation is what makes this appropriate. If more than, say, 6 months have passed I wouldn’t do it. But it sounds like you’ve only just left and they probably still miss you as well. Even if it’s only in the “I wish Santa was still here so that we didn’t have such a heavy workload” way, it would be a kind gesture to show that you cared about them.

    6. Chiffon*

      I don’t think that’s so out of line – I’m in a similar position (left long time job in the spring and miss my old buds) and have been thinking of sending over some holiday treats. I’m not at all worried about setting up some expectation that it’ll happen forever and I don’t think you should be either.

    8. Observer*

      I think you’re overthinking this. I can’t imagine that a food basket to an entire office would be seen as a bribe. And looking at that a commitment? That’s just odd to me.

    9. k.k*

      I think it’s a nice thought, assuming it would fit with the culture of the office and your relationships there. I wouldn’t think anyone would expect you to keep sending them forever. If a former employee did that at any of the jobs I’ve ever had, it would be met with “Aw how nice!”, and only positive reactions.

    10. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Inc.*

      A card could be very well-received. I actually did that for a former employer, and they all wrote me a note back and signed it. Go for it!

    11. Susanne*

      Your friend’s comment doesn’t make any sense. Just because you do it one year doesn’t mean you’re committing yourself to sending a gift forever, or that failing to do so will be seen as a “snub.” He is far, far overstating the amount of thought people devote to this kind of thing. They’ll enjoy the treats when they are there, and they aren’t going to devote a minute’s worth of thought next year when they aren’t there. Do it or don’t, that’s your call, but it’s not a permanent commitment.

    12. periwinkle*

      If that fits in the old culture, it would be a lovely gesture! No sane workplace will see this as a permanent expectation and obligation from you; if they weren’t a sane workplace, you wouldn’t be considering sending a gift, right?

      I used to work for a tiny business with an owner and about a dozen employees. I still send them a holiday card when I remember to send out cards. No obligations expressed, implied, or even under consideration!

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s fine.
      When my husband passed his former bosses sent me Christmas cards for the next two Christmases. I was very touched. I did not expect them to continue doing that.
      It’s a classy gesture on your part. Most people are savvy enough to understand that this is not a yearly thing. I sincerely doubt the ENTIRE group would expect you to do it again next year.

      If you are still having doubts, then find a very nice card and sent it to the group instead.

    14. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      One of my former co-workers sends a special treat to our office every Thanksgiving. She hasn’t worked here in over 3 years. Nobody expects her to send it. We’re always so surprised. She sends a sweet “I miss you guys! Enjoy!” note in with her gift every year and every year we email her our thanks.

    15. Amy*

      I agree with others that if you want to do it you should. And honestly, come next Christmas are people likely to even remember that you sent one the previous year and expect another? Maybe I have a terrible memory but I wouldn’t track something like that…unless it was something outrageous like a fleet of new of cars or something.

    16. Koko*

      I could see a former employee in my office doing this.

      The two most salient details for our office’s culture around this are 1) that we have a high degree of camaraderie on staff, low turnover, and folks who move on usually leave on good terms and stay in touch, and 2) that we get a ton of gift baskets at year ends from vendors and the like, and employees frequently bring in treats and leave them out in common spaces to share.

      So a gift basket is normal and the workplace is harmonious enough that a thinking-of-you gift from a former employee would just get an, “oh, how thoughtful!” response.

      If you don’t have that kind of harmonious environment among coworkers/departed employees, or treats/baskets are unusual in your workplace, it might stand out and come across more oddly.

  2. Claire*

    What questions would you ask when interviewing your (potential) new boss? My current boss is retiring, and interviews to replace the position are happening soon. If you were sitting down with candidates for your bosses’ position, what would be the big things you’d want to know? What would you ask them?

    1. KK*

      I would consider the style of management that your current boss has that affect your job the most. For example, if you frequently email reports to your current boss for approval, and he responds within 10 minutes, I would ask your potential boss what his preferred communication method is. Is he good with email? Does he prefer phone calls?

      Just make a mental list of the ways in which you interact with your boss, that could differ from person to person.

      1. Anion*

        Ooh, yes, communication styles is a big one, and I’d add to that how *much* communication they want/expect, and how they return it. I’ve never interviewed a boss but I have “interviewed” potential agents, and I’ve given advice to aspiring-writer friends on that subject, and it’s a big one for me; if you’re someone who wants or needs lots of feedback, you need to be aware that you’re working with someone whose style is “Assume all is well unless I say differently,” for example (and vice versa). Or if you’re a “I’ll tell you when it’s done,” person, you might have difficulty with a manager who wants constant updates (and vice versa).

        I’d also be interested in what a potential boss’s philosophy is wrt the business you’re in, as well. What do they think the goal is? At the end of the day, what are they most proud to have accomplished at work–like, do they go home happy that they’ve made customers happy, or happy that they’ve made stockholders happy, or happy that they’ve made employees happy?

        What do they think makes a cohesive team? How do they facilitate that?

        How important is team loyalty, both upward and downward? Maybe give an example of a time they’ve gone to bat for one of their reports, and why they felt it as important to do so. How do they see their role wrt their direct reports vs. upper management (are they a liaison willing to convey their team’s ideas/thoughts/feedback, or do they simply see their job as conveying the wishes of upper mgmnt to their team and getting the team to carry out those wishes)?

        Maybe think of a time when they didn’t handle something well, and why, and what they would do differently now; or an example of a time they were managed badly and what they wish their manager had done.

    2. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      – How does she measure success?
      – What qualities does she like in her boss?
      – Does she view her role as also a mentorship position i.e., will she help you with upward mobility?
      – What is her vision for the organization she’ll be leading?

      I think it would also be a good ideas to ask for examples of how she has implemented different skills she says she has.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d ask this person what practical steps she takes to make sure she isn’t either micromanaging or having no idea what her direct reports are up to. Also, what her preferred communication modes (email, phone, in person, text message) are and in which situations.

    4. Jimbo*

      What drives you crazy in a colleague or a direct report?
      What two achievements are you most proud of in your career?
      Can you describe a time or incident when a direct report was not meeting goals or expectations and how you handled it?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This last one is what I would most want to ask. Ask how they handle difficult employees, because anyone can manage a superstar! You’ll find out how they will treat you if they ever feel you need to improve on something or fell short on something, and that’s pretty important.

      2. Alexandra Duane*

        Absolutely the #1 thing that drives me crazy in a colleague, a direct report, or a supervisor is telling me to my face that everything is fine, then trash-talking behind my back. It’s weasely and cowardly, solves no problems, and exacerbates all kinds of problems.
        I spent 21 years in the military, so explaining the achievements I’m proudest of would take a lot of background explanation, but I’ll just say that they involved either completing a complex task that resulted in an improvement in the organization as a whole, or turning around a “problem” subordinate into a productive Soldier.
        In the military, handling a situation where you need a Soldier to make improvement is a process that progresses from informal correction, through written counseling, to (worst-case scenario) processing the Soldier for separation from the service. We always used a process of stating or re-stating the standard of job performance, detailing with objective measurements how the Soldier had not achieved the standard, making a plan to improve, and stating the consequences if there was no improvement. People will always be more invested in a plan if they have input, so even if we knew what we needed the plan to include, we would give the Soldier a chance to articulate what they would do to improve. Goal-setting always involved “SMART” goals – Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-linked.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      In addition to the great ideas already shared around management style and preferences, I also like to ask how they make decisions, and how they set/evaluate goals. If you ask those questions, it’s also helpful in parallel to think about what kinds of answers would work well for you personally and your organization (and the answers might be different!).

    6. Aphrodite*

      Among the ones I’d ask–anywhere from three to six of them–would be one or two scenarios from AAM that I had personal feelings about, perhaps ones that might potentially come up in the potential position. I wouldn’t use any excessively weird ones, but we all have ones that hit particular notes for us in our professional lives. See how the potential boss would handle it (because it should give you at least some insight into how a difficult situation would be handled). Also, maybe ask what they do for the holidays. Are they accommodating of time off requests or do they want all hands on board without really needing them. Is it seniority only?

      Thinking about how the boss handles these and other situations is a good indication how they handle work in general.

    7. Not Today Satan*

      I saw think on Linkedin today (posted by someone named Ify Walker– she blogs about this stuff so I don’t think she’l mind sharing). I don’t know if I’d be comfortable asking all of them in an interview and would maybe save some for after an offer, but I think overall they’re great:

      1. How and when will I receive advice about career development and career advancement?

      2. How do you give advice on how to navigate organizational politics? Can you provide examples of the last three people you advised re: org politics. What was the advice?

      3. Who in the organization is most often nominated for opportunities? Examples, please.

      4. Could you share an example of a time when you had to defend the work of someone on your team? Who was it?

      5. How are stretch assignments assigned in this organization? What were the last three stretch assignments you assigned — whom did they go to?

      6. Who are your top leaders? Where do they go after they leave you?

        1. Not Today Satan*

          I think the question asking about a time they’ve helped someone navigate organizational politics is also a great way to get at the level of toxicity/drama/etc at the organization.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      1) How do you assess your team’s workload and utilization?
      2) Can you give me a time where you assessed and assigned your team’s workload and how you made the decision to give which projects to who?
      3) Tell me about a time that you had a disagreement in approach to a problem with one of your reports/staff. How did you handle that conflict?
      4) How and when do you provide your team feedback? Can you give me some examples in the scope of a project and a yearly review?

      For me I’m always looking for a manager that will let me ask questions and will listen if I have a true issue with a decision (I really only push back on ones I think are made without all the info, so we’re talking 2x a year or less). I’m also looking for a boss that doesn’t overload their high-performing reports at the expense of low performers (unless there are rewards for being a high performer or they are managing the low performers out).

      I’d make sure if there’s something you really like or really hate about your current manager’s style you ask about it in a tactful way.

    9. ChemMoose*

      I recently did interviewed and hired my boss. I followed advice from Alison:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2011/05/asked-to-interview-our-prospective-new-manager.html

      Other notes
      1. Make sure to ask the same questions of all the candidates. This seems silly, but it makes it REALLY easy to compare styles when talking in a group later. (I also wrote all the answers down).
      2. If the candidate is younger/ not expected to have much experience, ask them “What do you like about your current boss’s management style? What don’t you like about it?”
      3. STAR questions are great (Tell me about a time when …) – you managed a team/project?

  3. SuccessFail*

    Has anyone ever left their job for another job that’s less stressful, possibly with a pay cut, for health reasons?
    I’ve been having increasing health issues, most notably worsening anxiety and depression leading to other health problems and 3 separate doctors have told me that my health issues are work stress related, and I should strongly consider looking for another job. My dilemma is that I’ve been at my job 2.5 years, and was at my previous job 2.5 years as well. I don’t want to look like a job hopper, and would like to stay in my field so that my resume makes sense. I don’t want my resume to look like I have taken a demotion, but need to leave this job. I realize that my anxiety makes me very eager to please, so I end up taking on more than I can handle, and my job then won’t let me revisit responsibilities, because they are used to me being the office mule (started this job with one program, now managing 4 programs with no support, which makes me appear very successful in the short run, but leads to burnout, panic attacks, hives, etc.).
    Also, with the depression, I am not really enthusiastic about any job, which makes job searching more challenging, and makes me more anxious! I live alone with no partner (to help support me) or children (that I have to support).
    I have applied for FMLA to give me room to think through some of these things, and am considering working with a career counselor. Has anyone else had to make this decision? How did you make this decision? Did you stay at your job with accommodations, or leave entirely?

    1. Meg*

      I’ve done it – went from a office job that was worsening my anxiety and depression and causing me to have panic attacks to a job at a bookstore/coffee shop. My therapist highly recommended I get out of there.

      It paid the bills and I was actually functional both in and out of work. I was pretty much convinced I was good for nothing, and having a job at a bookstore/coffee shop gave me immediate tasks that I could achieve. I did well, got praise, and have moved back into office jobs. I still don’t love it, but I have a lot more tools to manage them and to manage me.

      Good luck. I honestly think that if your doctors are recommending you leave, then leave. Find some kind of job and put yourself back together.

      1. emalia*

        Similar experience…
        I had a job that left me unable to function from anxiety. Medication helped, but I knew I needed to change jobs. My subsequent job still had “Director” in the title, but it was definitely a step (maybe multiple steps) down and a pretty significant pay cut.
        However, I built my confidence in that job. While my previous job was filled with kind people, they had a number of unhealthy opinions about work load and expectations. I was able to reset my mentality about work, see my strengths and weaknesses, and build my confidence. I was promoted 2x at that organization. I’ve since left and returned to my original field with much better work habits and healthier ways of thinking about work.

    2. Bye Academia*

      My situation was a little different, because the job giving me so much anxiety was a contract position. I only stayed as long as I did because there was an end in sight. But retrospectively, I wish I had left early. The difference in my health and happiness is night and day.

      In my opinion, as long as what you are being paid is enough for you to live on without worrying about money, a low stress job is worth gold. For me, that means a job with a 35-40 hour work week, during which I will work very hard (uhhh except for my AAM breaks), but there is no expectation of working from home. Try to think through what it means for you, and look for jobs like that.

      So go for it! And keep and mind that the sooner you start job hunting, the easier it will be to wait for a good fit. Try not to take a job that will also stress you out just because you’re desperate to leave the one you have.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done it not even for health reasons, just because the previous job was a toxic work environment. Not sure what field you’re in, but I wouldn’t consider 2.5 years followed by 2.5 years to be job hopping. That may vary by industry, of course.

      I don’t want my resume to look like I have taken a demotion, but need to leave this job.

      I don’t know that it always works out this way for people, but one time I did it, I left a job where I was Asst. Director of something to be a Receptionist. Later on I was a Director somewhere. Now I’m an Analyst. Not everything is a straight trajectory, career-wise.

      1. KatiePie*

        Ditto on the trajectory. I went from Director to Supervisor to Analyst. However, the pay from Director to Supervisor was virtually the same (went from nonprofit to private sector). Then the move from Supervisor to Analyst was a huge jump (small floundering company to medium sized & successful). I seem to have hit the sweet spot on pay and responsibilities. So very glad I took that weird first leap to get out of nonprofit (not my jam).

    4. 2 Cents*

      2.5 years each in two jobs won’t make you look like a job hopper, in my opinion.

      Is there another company in your industry that may have a job for you? It wouldn’t necessarily be a demotion, then, if that company actually believes in supporting its people.

      Also, take care of yourself first. As a long-time sufferer of both anxiety and depression, no job is worth ruining your health over. I used to have a 3-hour roundtrip commute to a job that just got worse and worse (When I quit, my boss actually said “sorry we couldn’t give you a raise in the last 4 years, but we gave you more responsibilities and job duties, so at least you got more experience” !?!). I changed to a job in a completely different industry with a more reasonable commute and have never second-guessed my decision. My anxiety and depression eased (plus I was able to actually make my therapy appointments!) and my debilitating migraines stopped.

    5. Frank Doyle*

      Two consecutive 2.5-year jobs would not be considered “job hopping” by most people. Do what you need to do for your health, it is literally the most important thing. Taking a break to re-set your health sounds like a fantastic idea.

    6. MuseumChick*

      Echoing the others 2.5 years at each job won’t make you look like a job hopper. It’s increasingly common for people to move on to new jobs after about 2 – 3 years.

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yes. I made this exact decision (also because of anxiety).

      For a lot of reasons, my last role wasn’t a good fit: I worked remotely; the organization had a very hard-driving/urgent/go-go-g0 culture; I took over a role that was ill-defined (and while some folks would thrive with the opportunity I had to create that role, at that moment in my life I wasn’t as successful as I wanted to be or the org needed me to be); my manager had micromanaging tendencies (and my anxiety created a cycle with this — I was anxious because of her micromanagement, and so I performed worse and worried about running everything by ger, so she kept up the micromanagement, etc.). It was a shame, because I loved the mission, my actual work, my colleagues — and it was by far the most I’d been paid.

      I decided to leave, but if I hadn’t I suspect I would have been coached out — I found my current job before we got to that point. The job I left for was a very significant step back in title and pay (it was a 37% pay cut; my current org is much larger and uses a very different title structure so it’s hard to compare, but it was at least one step down in the hierarchy, maybe two)… and I haven’t regretted it for a moment. I traded money away to buy more health, peace, calm, and enjoyment.

      (I’ll take a moment to note that I was able to absorb the financial hit for two reasons: 1) My husband earns a lot more than I do, so my income doesn’t play as big of a role in our finances as it would otherwise and 2) I’m financially pretty healthy/lucky so I could have survived regardless).

      I was clearly overqualified for the position, but I was able to talk about why I wanted to come here in my cover letter and interview. (I just looked back at my cover letter, and I didn’t actually address my overqualification directly — I just was very clear about why I wanted this role specifically and connected that to the experiences that had helped prepare me for it.)

      In general, I think of applications as an opportunity to create a narrative about myself and experience that leads to the role I’m applying for as a natural next step. That’s the frame I use to curate what experience I highlight, what examples I give in a cover letter, how I talk about my work, and so on. My experience has been somewhat varied, but it makes sense within the story that I tell about what drives the professional choices I’ve made.

      Phew, this got long. I hope it’s helpful, but if not I’m happy to answer any other more specific questions here.

    8. I Didn’t Kill Kenny*

      I once had a maddening eye tic. Stopped as soon as I left stressful job. My husband was able to get off high blood pressure meds after leaving his stressful job.

      Life is short. If your doctors are telling you to leave m, it’s way past time to go.

      Good luck!

    9. k.k*

      I have and it was well worth it. As for addressing the perceived demotion on your resume, there are many ways to explain that. My method was to find something from my previous role that sort of related to what I was applying to, and focus on that. For me, I was going from a more project focused role to an admin/office manager in the same industry. I said something like that I really loved the industry, and while I enjoyed my last job I found that the portions I really excelled at and enjoyed where the behind the scenes logistics, and I’m looking for a position where I can really focus on those types of things. I think that addressed the fear that I would become bored by the menial tasks of this lower level job, by saying head on that I actually enjoy handling the nitty gritty details.

      If the jobs you’re looking at are really a huge step down, you could also say that you’re looking for a better “work life balance”.

    10. LA*

      I did this, and it was absolutely worth every penny I wasn’t making anymore. My blood pressure dropped almost instantly, and my depression improved dramatically over time (many fewer depressive periods in a year). Make sure any new job you get will pay enough to live off of, and you’ll be much better off. Your health is your life, and your life is worth more in the long run than slightly higher pay.

      It might also help to remind yourself, moving forward, not to commit to projects without assurances of backup/support, because that’s actively bad for your health. Letting yourself say no or at least negotiating what you’ll give up so that you can do a shiny new project is going to be just as important to improving your health as any new job you take.

    11. anonykins*

      I left my previous position that paid VERY well in an extremely low cost of living area for a $5000 paycut in medium-high cost of living area. To put it in perspective, my partner and I previously lived on only my income AND saved double what we are saving now with both of us working. I also had a stipulation in my contract (yes, a real contract) about my notice period that meant I had to quit before I had another job lined up, although I had started the search.

      But it was 100% worth it. I was overworked and starting to get stress-related symptoms, and I felt that management didn’t have my back in some key ways that really mattered (some of it was just expectations of the industry in general, but some of it was this particular employer). I have depression, and it was getting a lot worse the longer I stayed at the job. I also literally couldn’t think or talk about anything else…what is the point of making enough money that your partner stays home to spend more time with you if all of your ‘quality’ time is consumed by work talk?

      I used to (and still do, more than I’d like) put a lot of emphasis on what seemed like the right career trajectory and how successful I “should” be by X age. But I have learned that, while I cannot work a job that I really don’t care about and prefer to do something with a mission I believe in, I also cannot work a soul-sucking job that consumes every moment of my consciousness. Being able to work a job that I care about but has regular hours and a normal workload is certainly worth the huge pay cut I took.

    12. LO*

      I had a very stressful job and chose to stay because I thought I needed it.
      I did not take care of myself in that job and became miserable and sick the longer I stayed.
      I was eventually hospitalized. You know what that job did after they knew I was sick and nearly died? They laid me off and cancelled my health insurance during my recovery period.

      On the bright side, after I left that job, I got another job through a temp agency and took a paycut to survive. Kept looking for other work and found my current job, who hired me knowing I was only at my previous job for 10 months.

      You do NOT have to suffer for 2.5 years at a job that’s making you physically sick and anxious. There is always a way. It may take awhile and the task of job searching might be daunting, but there is always better somewhere else. Take care of you first and be kind to yourself. And always remember that you will be OK no matter what you do. :-)

      Be well.

      PS. I started taking Theanine to help me manage my anxiety and I cannot say enough good things about it.
      I’m like a totally different person!

      1. Windchime*

        I posted my story below but forgot to mention that I am also on medication. I’ve taken medication for anxiety and depression for many years, but this is the first time that I’ve ever felt that I am on the right type of medication at the right dose. It feels so good to be free of the debilitating anxiety. I didn’t even realize how bad it had gotten until I literally couldn’t sleep and all I did was cry. I feel like a new person now.

    13. MI Dawn*

      I’m actually doing now. I’ve stayed with the same employer, but changed jobs – usually an advance – several times. But this change in a few weeks will be a drop in level and pay. Less stress because it’s an area I will know and understand much better than my current one, and has a lot of potential down the road.

      I also have depression. Currently controlled with non-medical means, using medical accommodation (extra work from home days, a bit of a flexible schedule). One of my triggers is too little sleep, which means starting the new job, with every day in the office for several months and the attendant commute, will be a push and I have my friends alerted to let me know if I need meds. FMLA is a good things. I’ve never used a career counselor, but I’ve heard good and bad things.

      Best of luck to you.

    14. Ann*

      Leave – no job is worth your health.

      I was in a similar situation – high stress job, toxic boss, overworked – I tried to stay the obligatory 2 years, but I just couldn’t stand it anymore – not only was my blood pressure high, I was having anxiety issues as well, which affected my sleep. PLUS a long commute on top of that!

      When I left, my blood pressure dropped 20 points, anxiety went down, sleep went back to normal. And yes, I took a pay cut to escape. It’s not my dream job, and I’m still keeping an eye out, but at least that constant pressure-pressure-pressure is gone.

      Best of luck!

    15. MilkMoon (UK)*

      Yep! I have anxiety. My second-to-last job turned toxic as hell after three years and I was waking up in tears at 2am every night for MONTHS, I ended up walking out (finally snapped on a Friday, wrote my resignation letter on the Saturday, went in to clear out my desk on Monday, handed my letter in and walked out right then). The job I ended up with after that brought back the panic attacks I hadn’t had since I was 17 (early thirties now and this was last year) – I left that one after five months. So I made the conscious decision to work out the lowest salary I needed (to pay my bills with a little extra for actual living & saving) and prioritised the environment I needed in a workplace. It was a wonderful decision – I took a generous paycut to work in a quiet customer service (office based) role for a good company with good people, I never dread going to work or my reviews – in fact I look forward to my reviews and I like knowing I’m going to have a good laugh at work every day.

      Please do it! You can’t put a price on your health <3

    16. NewJobWendy*

      I was in a similar situation – my mental and physical health issues were directly caused by the job I was in. (I was working with a therapist). I got a new job and took and $8,000 pay cut. I’m almost 3 months into the new job and I’m a brand new person. I barely even recognize myself, and I’m so happy. I had to stop saving for retirement because my budget is tight, but what use is retirement if I’m dead by 60 due to work stress? (Note, I DO plan to pick up saving for retirement again next year once I get a raise, but I’m young so there’s time to make up for it). The math can be hard but I’m such a better person.

      I also had similar concerns re: job hopping. My track record at my 3 previous jobs was 1 yr, 1 yr, and 2 yrs – and I still did OK for myself. Interviewers were less concerned about why I had left each job so quickly and more concerned with “what would make me stay at my next job for 3 or more years”? I had a well prepared answer to that (opportunities for professional growth/advancement and good work life balance) and I really DO hope to stay at my current company for more than 3 years!

      Keep working with your healthcare team. and doing whatever you need to do to improve your work habits to generate good work-life balance. If you repeat the same behaviors at the new job, you will end up with the same challenges. That’s the biggest lesson I took away from last workplace.

      I did not work with a career counselor, but if you want to stay in your field, find some good recruiters and work with them. I have been placed at my current and previous 2 jobs through recruitment / staffing firms.

      1. NewJobWendy*

        Note – “I was working with a therapist” means receiving treatment, not that my job was with a therapist :)

      2. Jimbo*

        Oh! I am in somewhat the same boat where my last three jobs were 2 years, 2 years, 11 months. Your paragraph resonated with me:

        “I also had similar concerns re: job hopping. My track record at my 3 previous jobs was 1 yr, 1 yr, and 2 yrs – and I still did OK for myself. Interviewers were less concerned about why I had left each job so quickly and more concerned with “what would make me stay at my next job for 3 or more years”? I had a well prepared answer to that (opportunities for professional growth/advancement and good work life balance) and I really DO hope to stay at my current company for more than 3 years!.”

        I am curious how the interviewers raised the short term tenure issue with you and how you sussed out that their real concern was not why you left the jobs quickly but more what would make you stay longer? I am getting this exact question in my recent interviews and although I have memorized an answer to anticipate it, I would like to steer the conversation towards what it will take me to stay longer than 2 years.

        1. NewJobWendy*

          “I am curious how the interviewers raised the short term tenure issue with you and how you sussed out that their real concern was not why you left the jobs quickly but more what would make you stay longer? ”

          They explicitly framed asked “What would it take to make you stay more than 2 to 3 years?”. There was of course discussion about why I changed roles but all of that involved changing careers followed by out of state family obligations, so I think it’s really about being able to tell your story well, and have a clear understanding of what WILL keep you at a job.

          I think you can steer the conversation that way, though, if they start digging into your reasons for moving around. You can either find a way to insert it in that portion of the conversation or when they get to the “do you have questions” part you can be forthright and say “It seems like you have concerns about my longevity. I’d like to let you know that my goal is to find an employer I can grow with and stay with for 3 or more years….to do that I would need X….Do you think this position / your company aligns with those needs?”

          My latest recruiter gave me great advice, which is don’t talk in interviews about what you’re trying to move away from. Talk about what you want to move towards.

      3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I really like this advice re: what it would take to stay 3 yrs at next role. Even if its not explicitly asked, its something to consider and probably work into the answer somewhere.

        I was in a highly-stressful role on contract for 18 months and took a role in a more laid back culture, but no pay cut. I knew the work may not be challenging enough and I was right – a year in and I am so bored I look jealously at a friend with a high-stress undefined corporate role who has to go to Asia for two weeks last minute (and has a child at home). But I took it for other reasons – the high stress job absolutely played a part in my back problems, I got heavy and unhealthy, some bad habits were creeping in all over the place. I meant for this year to get stronger and figure things out which I have.

        That’s not to say it hasn’t come with its own massive frustrations in terms of really bad project management, even worse line management (that’s sorted itself out) favoritism, and as a Type A being annoyed with the lack of urgency and impact of everything, but its given me space to realize what I really don’t want in the future and what I do want. And I have taken opportunity to try out a new type of project in a safe environment that could lead to a new career – just need to learn to be patient!

    17. Not So NewReader*

      You may find with a good boss that you do not have the stresses you have now.

      Health issues to one side for a second, I would tell ANYONE that they were giving an employer too much of themselves by running so many programs. I am not saying this in attempt to minimize your concerns, I am saying this as it’s good advice for anyone. Your employer is a leach, you deserve better than this. These people take you for granted and will just suck up as much as they can get out of you. Unfortunately, only you can stop the draining process. So good health/bad health my answer is the same, your company is using you.

      It’s okay not to be enthused about any new job right now. Try looking at jobs from the angle of “will I succeed at this position?” Put yourself some place where you stand a reasonable chance of achieving success. Put some time in reweaving your life. You know, it’s funny/odd, I learned that things I thought I cared about, I really don’t care about those things. Once those things were out of the way, I was able to see the things that were actually important to me.
      I think your FMLA and career counseling ideas are excellent choices. Also keep reading AAM, so you can keep learning about workplaces.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Your employer is a leach, you deserve better than this. These people take you for granted and will just suck up as much as they can get out of you. Unfortunately, only you can stop the draining process. So good health/bad health my answer is the same, your company is using you.

        This realization is what made me finally leave not just my current position, but the company in general – my last day is December 1st. I start a new job as a proposal manager December 4th. I’ll eventually average about four proposals at a time, which is much better than the 122 claims I was currently handling, which means less stress. Like everyone in this thread, my soon-to-be ex job negatively affected my health – it aggravated my OCD and caused me to have a breakdown. With the help of my therapist over a six month period, I was able to really think about what I want to do with my life and what I need to do to get there, what kind of environments don’t work for me, and I eventually found another job with a company that seems eager as hell to have me. (I applied three weeks ago!) My current company works us to death and then gives us insulting ass “raises” (really cost of living increases that they erroneously call a merit increase); my division is an old boys club where if you’re not white and male, no matter what you do and how good you are, you ain’t going anywhere; and I have had enough of this mess.

        SuccessFail – LEAVE. Get your health together, take some time to heal and plan your next move, and then if you feel like it later on, you can always re-enter the rat race.

    18. Irene Adler*

      Working 2.5 years in your two most recent jobs is not job hopping.

      Take a look at LI profiles of folks in similar jobs/industry as you are. You’ll find that your history is same or in lots of cases “better” in terms of ‘time served’.

    19. sunshyne84*

      I sympathize with you and it’s definitely okay to move on to something else. I left my old job and worked in retail making half of what I made before, but it was so worth it. I woke up dreading going to work and would show up late almost every day. I thought about asking to go part-time, but ultimately just left. It wasn’t even the work, just the terrible employees. Leaving there helped me to gain other skills that I never would’ve gotten at oldjob that helped me transition into a newjob that I actually like.

      If you don’t think you can do it, I think it’s worth it to talk to your manager about at least cutting back with one task and see if that helps. Just say you’re feeling burnt out and finding it increasingly difficult to manage every assignment on a consistent basis and deliver them at the level you approve.

    20. SuccessFail*

      Thank you all so much for your comments! It is definitely encouraging to hear your stories of the steps you took to take care of yourselves. Looking forward to the job search and getting out of here!

    21. Windchime*

      I did. I stayed in the same industry but took about a 9% pay cut to move to my new job. The commute is also worse, but the benefits and days off are much better. It was totally worth it to me, even with the rough commute because the people are good, stable, kind people who have reasonable expectations about work/life balance. And my boss is not a loon.

      Like you, I took some FMLA because the situation at work was so hard that I was having thoughts about hurting myself multiple times a day. I was an anxious mess and I needed a couple of months to get to a place where I was even stable enough to find a new job.

      If you think that moving jobs is the right thing to do for yourself, then I would highly recommend it. I honestly don’t miss the money and I’ve learned to cope with the commute. Living with this kind of anxiety and depression is really hard, and when you’ve got a job that makes it worse it is agony. Take care of yourself and best of luck in your search.

    22. Anon anon anon*

      I left a dysfunctional office job with nothing lined up and immediately saw health benefits. I had been feeling nauseous all the time, having trouble eating, and losing weight. The doctor ordered a bunch of invasive tests that I couldn’t really schedule around my work commitments. But as soon as I left, my appetite came back and I started eating normally again. I’m currently trying to find a way to earn a good living without getting back into a similar situation. But I’d rather be struggling financially than nauseous, starving, and dealing with all the negative stuff at that place. That’s a no brainer.

    23. Anonnnnnnn*

      I just did that. I took a $20,000 pay cut to leave a job at a national lab for an assistant professor job because the stress was making my anxiety unmanageable. I’m only a few months in, but so far it feels very worth it. I figure I’m only 30; if I need to make that kind of money again I have the skills for it and I can try to get a more high paying job later. Right now it’s not worth destroying my health.

      1. Bye Academia*

        That’s so interesting. I always heard professorships were more stressful than national labs. What was it about the national lab job that was so bad?

        As you can tell from my username, it’s not a decision I will be making in the future. But I considered national labs as an alternative until I realized they were all located in places I did not want to live.

    24. Optimistic Prime*

      I have not, but I’m chiming in to say that 2.5 years doesn’t make you look like a job hopper!

  4. Peach*

    I am an hourly employee. My hours are 7:30-4:30, although I do not have a job that requires me to be in my seat during that certain time frame. Earlier this week, I worked two 8.75 hour days planning for a big show we had at our facility (which went great!), so I will have 40 hours by 3:00 PM. Would it be acceptable to ask to leave at 3:00 PM? I have been at my company for over two years, and am a highly valued employee (three raises, one promotion). The general manager of the company (who I report to) is on vacation today, leaving the operations manager as the “highest” person in the office. So, even though I do not directly report to her, she would be the one I would ask (well, tell, since she’s not my boss) that I plan on leaving at 3:00. She and I both know my boss, who is gone today, would have no problem with (and even encourage) me leaving early. However, this operations manager makes it very clear that she’s irritated whenever anyone leaves before quitting time, even though she herself (as a salaried employee) comes and goes as she pleases. This Operations Manager has had serious performance and attitude issues in the past, so her opinion of me leaving early doesn’t really have any effect on me. However, I’m by nature a people pleaser and am worried about her being annoyed with me if I ask to leave early. Am I totally overthinking this?!

    1. Observer*

      Totally overthinking this. Also, you can sweetly point out to her that you “HAVE” to leave early, because otherwise you are going to run into overtime territory.

      1. Claire*

        Agreed! This is likely the best approach. Don’t ask her, just let her know what you’re doing and why. Otherwise what will you do if she says no?

        1. Lisa B*

          I’d be careful just *telling* her what you’re doing. I would probably say “since I had to stay late a few days for the Big Show, I’ll hit 40 hours at 3pm. Do you prefer I head out then or book the last hour as overtime? I’d be fine heading out at 3 if you’re ok with that.”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed. Be careful on the telling part. Know your company. You might frame it as, “I have x. How would you like me to handle it? I can do A or B or whatever you prefer.”

        2. Blah*

          I ended up in this situation once. I was part time retail, scheduled at 30 hours for the week, but my company’s corporate office needed some local sales associates for moving labor, and my manager sent me. This would put my hours at 55 for the week, so I was to ask the scheduling manager how my schedule should be modified, especially since I had a couple clopens across two counties. Scheduling manager got super snippy and didn’t get what I was “complaining” about, even after I brought up the hours load. So I let him have his way, worked every one of those 55 hours even though it wore me down, and then promptly blamed the scheduling manager when the district manager wanted to know HOW THE HELL 15 HOURS OF OVERTIME GOT APPROVED FOR A BASIC SALES ASSOCIATE. There was much fire, much brimstone, and every bit of the blame got hurled at the scheduling manager, because I did duly inform him of the situation before working those hours. It was glorious, and I got a lot of money, too.

    2. BRR*

      It sounds like it doesn’t matter. i would say “I am leaving at 3:00 so I don’t run into overtime. Have a nice weekend!”

    3. Andie Elizabeth*

      Definitely overthinking it! I’d just say that you were planning to leave at 3:00pm this afternoon so as not to run up any unauthorized overtime (if that’s a thing your office worries about; mine does) and ask if there’s anything she needs you to finish before you go, so you’re not asking for permission, but you are making clear that you aren’t shirking any work responsibilities.

    4. kittymommy*

      Totally over thinking. Just let them know that you will need to leave by 3 so you won’t be over on hours (and possibly get into overtime wages).

    5. ClownBaby*

      My company allows this (up to a half-day) if the manager approves. Typically you have to get approval at the beginning of the week so they can plan for it though.

      It sounds like you weren’t planning to leave at 3 prior to today? You just happened to realize you will hit 40 hours at 3? You could just phrase your desire to leave in a way to make it seem like you are doing the company a solid by not working overtime…but you risk the ops manager saying “no, work the overtime.” You could say you need to leave early…make up some excuse, but I’m not a big fan of lying…I tend to get caught in them too easily.

      I’m stumped just because this would not be allowed at my company without permission. For you it sounds like you know your boss would be okay with it and that the ops manager’s complaining about you won’t really mean much to anyone. Just go for it.

    6. Peach*

      Just to clarify, my company actually doesn’t care if we run into overtime wages (probably due to the fact that people rarely work overtime). Should that matter? I’d rather go home early and get an early start on the weekend with family, and I would still think they’d rather not have to pay OT if given the option.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        Do it. Even if your company doesn’t care it makes no business sense for you to be paid overtime if your presence is not needed at the end of the day today. As long as no one else have to cover anything I’d tell her gently with the explanation that that’s why you’re leaving at 3 today.

      2. Natalie*

        I think you could just frame it that way – “since I’ll be hitting over time at 3:00 pm and I don’t have anything critical, I was planning on leaving then if that is okay with you.”

        You CAN let her be irritated. It will feel weird! But this is so low stakes it’s the perfect time to practice tolerating the existence of her irritation.

        1. zora*

          +23423094092 to this!! This is EXACTLY what I would say in your situation and YES to Natalie’s last paragraph.

    7. nonegiven*

      It’s too late for this but don’t ask to leave early. Ask if she will authorize overtime for you to stay until 4:30 or if you should go home once you’ve put in your 40 hours at 3.

    8. Peach*

      Update: I was definitely overthinking it! I asked her if it would be okay to leave at 3 given that I didn’t have anything time sensitive to do, and I’d already hit 40 hours at that point. She was surprisingly cool about it and said, “sure, that’s no problem.”

      (with the performance/attitude issues she’s had in the past, I’m hopeful that this reflects her “turning over a new leaf.”)

  5. Rebel Rebel*

    I have a hobby that is considered an odd hobby. It’s not the norm like doing needle point in from the TV, hosting sports viewing parties, or volunteering at a local charity. It’s definitely out there. Without outing myself completely, let’s say it’s on the same level as dressing up as a clown to do birthday parties for kids on the weekend, or having an extensive wardrobe of Renaissance clothes because I attend the local RenFest every weekend. Something along those lines, with an element of dressing up.

    I have no problem sharing that part of my life with people. Not like I constantly bring it up in conversation but if someone asks what I’m doing with my weekend, I’ll respond with ‘Oh fixing up my mask’ or ‘Entering into a costume contest’. It doesn’t bother me to share it. And most people find it interesting and ask to see photos. Around Halloween, I was constantly asked what my plans were because my coworkers wanted to hear my crazy events. I’ve never had a bad reaction, only people who are disinterested and say ‘hope you enjoy that thing’. Certainly, I don’t expect anything like that one old post of the employee whose PTO was rejected when they said they were doing a video game competition; I’m not worried about something like that.

    However, my friends who also participate in this dress up hobby don’t share this at work. They keep tight lipped and simply say ‘Going to a festival’ or ‘Spending time with friends’. They don’t give out details or share photos or anything like that.

    Unless someone’s hobby was kicking puppies, I like hearing about what my coworkers are doing, if they want to share it. I know that one races sailboats, another attends theatre productions every weekend, another is part of her church choir, another is a cheerleader for a professional football team. My hobby might be different but I like to share it same as my coworkers. It’s something I’ve shared at three different post-college jobs and I’ve never had a problem with it. But should I be keeping it quiet like my friends do? Are weird hobbies something you shouldn’t share?

    1. Murphy*

      As long as it’s nothing inappropriate, I don’t see why you can’t bring it up in normal conversation.

    2. CBH*

      Since it’s a hobby you enjoy and it’s nothing unethical, I think you are handling it fine. Everyone needs a life outside the office – that’s what hobbies are. You might be surprised and find someone else interested in the activity itself or in the subject matter.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I think it depends on the hobby & the type of work environment/people you work with. Since my coworkers are engineers, weird hobbies seem to be the norm and people talk about whatever. But, I could see someone who worked in a really competitive corporate culture may not want to tell coworkers they spend their weekends doing something unusual.

      I used to be in a department of two with a man who played the harp, had 4 persian cats, and collected old computers. Every year, the only vacation he took was with the Welsh harp society. It was weird, but I found it entertaining to hear about. More interesting than someone who spent every weekend tailgating the local college football game.

    4. SophieChotek*

      I have a lot of friends that are into cosplay, or do period photo shoots for fun, etc.

      Once you have a sense of your co-workers and don’t think they would have some super-odd reaction (even if inappropriate) I see no reason why not to share. It is interesting! (More interesting than doing needle-point while watching TV.) I can see why maybe some people might be hesitant to bring it up — some people do think that adults that like cosplay or RenFest or period re-enactments are “odd” or still acting like “geeky” teenagers, but I’d say if you feel comfortable explaining, go for it. Or you can go your friends’ route and be more vague…

    5. Meg*

      I’m a gamer: board game, rpg, larp, etc. My level of comfort in talking about it with coworkers has been directly correlated with how much I trust them and it’s certainly varied over the years. Talk about it! There’s no need to be quiet just because that’s what your friends prefer to do.

      (Cosplay? Larping? Hope you have fun!)

    6. Q*

      Why not? If your coworkers find it interesting and aren’t bothered by the information, I think you should share it. It’s certainly more interesting than listening to all of my coworkers talking about who they met at a bar, or the football game on the night before.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      I talk about roleplaying (parlour larp & tabletop) & volunteering as a breastfeeding peer supporter as well as more mainstream cake making and swimming… it does depend on office culture so much though. But yeah, all my colleagues know that I like pretending to be a vampire on the weekend if I have time.

      1. Rebel Rebel*

        Did not know that being a breastfeeding peer supporter was a thing but that sounds really cool! Good on you for doing that!

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Thanks :) I went to a lot of drop ins when firstbirn was a baby as we had a lot of difficulty feeding… then at a feq months old (still going for social side) one of the tutors who was helping out asked if I’d like to train as a peer supporter. It’s really something i loved doing and currently reregistering so can get back to it!

    8. extra anon today*

      I mean if it’s cosplay, fine, not weird go for it. If it’s being a furry, I think you get into weird territory because it’s often also a sexual fetish, which makes it uncomfortable for others if you bring it up.

    9. Dovahkiin*

      I LARP and my coworkers love hearing about my weekend fun times running around the woods as a wood elf or warrior mage.
      I’m also very politically active and civically engaged, for reproductive justice as well as racial justice. I only share my activism and efforts with 1-2 trusted coworkers who I’ve built a solid relationship with. I work for a large tech company. Super corporate, straight-laced culture, that leans very conservative (and white) at the top levels of the organization.

    10. Amber O.*

      I’ve been involved in cosplay for the last 5 years and my husband builds star wars replica droids, so I know where you’re coming from. It’s an odd thing to talk about in an office environment, only because most professional adults wont have come across it very often. I don’t think you should feel like you have to keep quiet about it- it isn’t anything top secret or sensitive. My thought process is, if its something I would be comfortable to put on my facebook for friends, colleagues, and/or family to see (as in, not offensive or inappropriate in nature), then it’s typically fine to mention at work as well. I find that most people are very interested in what goes into the hobby and find it a fun change of topic.

    11. Undine*

      It really depends on the specifics. For example, if you’re doing Civil War reenactment dressed up as a Confederate colonel, that would make some people uncomfortable. That’s about the associations with the hobby, no about having an elaborate hobby. You might ask your other co-hobby-ists for more details — have they had issues or what are they worried about.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. I could also see it being a problem with a hobby/subculture with a (undeservedly) bad media reputation, like Juggalos.

      2. JKP*

        Is it offensive to play the part of Confederate soldiers in a Civil War reenactment? Not everyone at the event can play on the Union side, so you have to have people play the other parts too in order to have the event at all.

        1. Liane*

          I don’t think it’s wrong/offensive to portray a CSA soldier. I’ve been to a few reenactments and the participants I’ve talked to, regardless of uniform, are all about respectfully portraying actual events in which soldiers–and others–died, not espousing ideas *most* of us have figured out are wrong-Wrong-WRONG. Any problem I suspect, would be people assuming that if you portray a Confederate, you must be a prejudiced, ignorant jerk.

          (This kind of attitude/assumption by some people, is why, when talking about the Rebel Legion Star Wars costuming organization [except with people I am absolutely sure are familiar with the RL], I include the description. “No misunderstandings” is right up there with “No disintegrations” as a goal IMO)

    12. nisie*

      I’m a part of the Society of Creative Anachronisms. I try to hid parts of it in normal conversation- “I’m going camping with friends” instead of “I’m going to a WAR! Yes! Most of my friends, hours of fun, free booze.” Over time, I might let things slip.

      Or at least with muddles. If I meet someone of geekish interests, I’ll open up.

      I also keep coworkers off my facebook so I can be an ubergeek.

      1. Rainy*

        I was in the SCA when I was a much younger woman, and found that people who understood either artistic or deeply geeky pursuits “got it” and it wasn’t a problem to talk about, but people who had much more conventional lifestyles really didn’t understand it–and in fact, a coworker at one of my jobs started spreading rumours that I was going to orgies every weekend because she couldn’t wrap her head around “I camp in costume and handmake stuff”, so she assumed that it was really some kind of weird sex thing.

        In general though I think whatever people are comfortable sharing is fine. OP is comfortable sharing, and that’s fine as long as nothing happens to make her think that’s a problem. Other people (I’m assuming these are different workplaces that her friends have, not the same company or organization) probably have had different experiences or have different workplace cultures. I’d bet on that being the difference rather than some error in her current approach.

      2. SechsKatzen*

        Funny you mention SCA. My boss is part of it as well and when I was hired here I started right before they left for Pennsic! And it’s pretty much known that they go away for 2 weeks each summer “to go to war.”

        In general I think mentioning hobbies and activities are fine in a workplace as long as it’s nothing unethical. I’m involved in church music as a chorister and soloist and pretty much have to disclose it if I need to leave early to sing for a servce. Several people I work with are also musicians and so we know a lot of the same people from various events. I enjoy knowing what my coworkers are involvved in and being able to go to their concerts and shows.

    13. Nic*

      I work at renaissance festivals when I can, and attend when I can’t work. I do have a closet full of clothes, and have proudly worn them to work on Halloween. I also talk about faire at work, tell stories about various antics and philosophize about cultural elements with my teammates.

      However, I also work in a place where the culture is very relaxed, and there have been many stories told to pass a long nightshift that would have people here gasping at the impropriety. From what I can tell, it’s gotten me seen as “that hippy ren faire woman who is kinda strange, but really nice and good at her job.” I’m okay with that in this environment. I also make sure to dress just a touch more professionally than a lot of my colleagues, to combat the “dirty hippy” stereotype.

      I’ve worked at other places where I stayed totally mum about what I did on the weekends unless I’d made friends with a coworker outside of work, and we never brought that kind of outside talk in. Some environments wouldn’t appreciate it.

      I’m all about “you do you”, just make sure to judge your environment.

    14. Laurin Kelly*

      I was both an armature and then professional belly dancer for over 10 years and I was always very open about it with my employers. No one ever seemed to have a problem with it, and I sometimes had co-workers and even bosses show up at events I was performing at.

      Currently however, my hobby/side job is writing gay romance books with erotic content, so I keep my writing on the down low at work and honestly from anyone I’m not super close to. Because my work is sexual in nature I just don’t feel like it’s appropriate to share with people I’m not 100% confident wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    15. Liane*

      Sounds like you have a similar hobby to mine. I have no problem bringing it up in coworker conversations–just like I have no trouble listening to their hobby talk about beer brewing, taking selfies with the grandkids, or volunteering at the llama museum–or AAM weekend posts.
      In fact, I will sometimes mention Hobby in select cover letters, if the position involves some event coordination, working with partner organizations, or the like, since as an officer in one of the major clubs I do these things. Or if we have done an appearance with the company. Ex: “I am familiar with many of Library System’s programs, as I have been a guest from Costume Group at Kid’s Event for the past 8 years, and part of the Famous Movie panel, at your 2016 and 2017 Mini-cons.”

    16. The Person from the Resume*

      I’m wondering if it’s burlesque. If it is burlesque I recommend not sharing it because there’s a sexual element there that crosses a line you want to avoid at work.

      If it’s just quirky and geeky without the sexual element then I think it’s fine to mention at work.

      There are some quirky geeky burlesque shows in my town that are just so amusing. Have you ever seen a wookie strip tease? I have.

      1. accidental manager*

        I’ve seen a Lord of the Rings characters do burlesque version of the 80’s movie Breakfast Club …

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m a burlesque historian and I attend shows – I brought it up at work a few times and everyone was fascinated, especially with the history part. And I work in a very conservative industry/company. On the other hand, I knew the people I brought it up with pretty well before talking about it, so there’s that.

    17. Ihmmy*

      If it’s a topic/hobby that seems likely to make the other person uncomfortable or notably have a negative effect on their opinion of me, I generally don’t bring it up. For example, I really enjoy listening to podcasts about serial killers, but I don’t really talk about that with my coworkers because it’s viewed pretty peculiarly. I do talk about board games and embroidery. I’m considering trying to learn more about preparing bones and growing crystals on them or articulating them – that I would probably talk about with the team I work with the most (they already know about my fondness for skulls) but not with more casual work acquaintances.

      It also will depend greatly on the culture of where you’re at. The overall culture here is slightly conservative but not bad. My team is mostly ‘normal’ people but open mindedly so – they know I’m polyamorous and aren’t terribly weird about it, for example.

    18. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      If you feel comfortable sharing it and talking about it isn’t somehow making your coworkers uncomfortable, then I don’t see a problem with it. Your friends might just work in places where this sort of thing is looked down on in a way it isn’t at your job.

    19. Kelly*

      I cannot tell you how many times I respond to ‘what are you doing this weekend’ inquiries with either bonding with my PS3 or going to “Insert Con Name Here”. If people don’t want to know they shouldn’t ask. And I agree with other posters, as long as it’s not illegal, I also enjoy hearing what people do on the weekends.

      That said, I go to one Con that I don’t tell people about because I don’t want to get questions about what happens at a pagan/wiccan convention :). Vegas rules apply.
      Kelly

      1. Anion*

        Maybe tomorrow we can start a thread on games/what we’re currently playing in the non-work open thread? We have a PS3, and for my birthday I/we got a PS4 Pro.

    20. Lissa*

      I have a similar hobby and I tend to not share it, or rather describe it in terms that people think of a bit differently. I say “Improv theatre” which is close but not exactly it, but people sometimes have a bad/weird reaction to the word itself, especially because a few years ago there were a few unflattering portrayals in the media. Part of it’s just that I have Issues about being seen as “the weird one”, so until I know the person does something equally unusual I will keep it to myself.

      1. Red Reader*

        Yep, I tell my boss I’m going to GenCon, and I’ll even share pics of my costuming (I keep it pretty simple), but I don’t tell her that I’m going to direct a whole bunch of people pretending to be werewolves and vampires.

        1. nisie*

          I’m in a new job, but I can’t wait for my 90 days to be up to put in leave for DragonCon- aka spending time with friends in Atlanta.

        2. Lissa*

          “direct a whole bunch of people pretending to be werewolves and vampires” yup that is also what I do. :D

    21. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      People often have different levels of comfort with talking about hobbies that are out there, or get ridiculed. When I started in my weird hobby (rhymes with panpiction), everyone kept their mouth shut and there were stories of people getting fired for getting caught. Now it’s more out there, but I’m still in the keep it super quiet mode. OTOH, my friend’s daughter (who is in her 20s) is completely open about doing the same thing to people at her admin job. I don’t think either of us are doing it wrong, it’s just different context and different levels of comfort.

      When I talk about my weekend or things for fun, I generally stick with watching soooooooooooooo much TV. (and never prestige TV, lol, or almost never. For some reason my near encyclopedic knowledge of Law and Order SVU doesn’t get as much conversation going as Game of Thrones or Insecure or This is Us in the office, heh.)

      1. Amber O.*

        Oh, fanfiction- I remember when I started and it was not spoken of outside your “innter circle” of writer friends. Even to this day I have trouble bringing it up to others, even though it’s not nearly as taboo as it used to be. However, I do have a quill tattoo on my arm because I love to write (including the above mentioned genre), but I always stick to a generic answer when people ask about it. A watered down response like “I write mostly fiction and short stories to publish online” seems to suffice.

        1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

          The funny part is I just remembered that a (younger than me) new person started at OldHorribleJob, she was very open about writing fanfiction and cosplaying, she even mentioned it in her interview. Granted, small nonprofit, and her first job out of college. But she was also so confident in herself, I think she pulled it off.

          I still never mention the writing to anyone outside of online, I feel like writing is one of those things where people wonder why you’re not trying to get published and make money off of it. Say you’re a writer and I feel like everyone wants to know if you’re submitting novels to Scribner. That’s probably just my experience.

          1. Anion*

            Lol, or say you’re a writer, and people assume you mean “aspiring/unpublished” writer, which has been my experience. :-)

    22. Nolan*

      I cringe when I think about how open I was about all my weird geek stuff as a teen/young adult. But people started thinking of me in only those terms, and I started to resent it so I dialed it waaaaaay back. I stopped LARPing before I started at my current job, but nobody here has any idea about it. LARPing consumed most of my 20’s and I’ve got a lot of regrets/baggage about that, so most of the people who do know were there at the time, or also have a history with gaming.

      My current job does know about my convention volunteering and management, in part because it’s on my resume and in part because I’m fairly open about that. But I don’t talk about that much either, I just don’t hide it. For me, I’d rather not talk in detail about my hobbies, I’d prefer coworkers and management know me mostly for my work. Does work need to know how much effort I put in to get my Age of Triumph t-shirt? No, but I don’t mind them knowing I play video games in more general terms.

      So, I guess the point is, it depends on your comfort levels, and whether you’re okay with people associating you with your hobby, and also, your work environment. The cat’s out of the bag at your current office, but at future jobs I wouldn’t start off that open about it, just in case your next team is more stuffy/conservative/judgmental/etc. You can always test the waters with smaller hints, and if they don’t seem well-received, you can be vague about it going forward. But I think you’re okay in your current office, they seem to be open minded about it.

    23. LKW*

      I think it is entirely dependent on the company culture. The more conservative the organization, the less you may want to share. It could be that your friends may work with real jerks who wouldn’t hesitate to tease them or otherwise make life miserable.

      Or if the goals of the organization and the facets at the hobby are at odds, say “PETA and horseback riding” or “Toastmasters Org and your hobby is mime” it may be best to keep those activities on the DL.

    24. Silver*

      Some people are more private than others and your friends may just be some of those. As long as you’re not having any problems with it, I don’t see any reason not to share.

    25. Jennifer*

      Depends on your work place. Yours may be a lot cooler than your friends’ and that’s why they keep quiet.

    26. Overeducated*

      If I were your coworker and it was something interesting like LARP, SCA, etc., I would be so excited to hear about it. I think it depends on your office culture and it sounds like it is fine for yours. It’s similar to talking about your kids or pets at work – you don’t want it to be the only thing you’re known for or bring it up in every conversation, and in some offices you wouldn’t want to talk about them at all because you would be taken less seriously, but in others it’s fine to make home life part of catching up. Maybe your friends work in more buttoned-up environments where sharing your personal life in general is less acceptable, or are more concerned about how they are perceived for reasons you don’t share.

    27. LawBee*

      we nerds have the best hobbies. <3 If you enjoy talking about it, sally forth and let your freak flag fly.

    28. Fiddlesticks*

      As someone with a differently geeky but also consumingly nerdy hobby, I know the struggle. Like a lot of people have said in this thread already, I think it comes down to your office culture, as well as you comfort level.

      But another element of this — which someone else upthread alluded to — is your long term comfort level with having this tagging you around. Most of our office relationships are relatively thin, and folks tend to remember one or two fun facts about you unless you’re really close, and it might turn into that thing literally everybody knows about you and the only thing anybody asks you about. If you’re okay with that, and with re-explaining your hobby all the time, then go for broke! I actually find people are way, way more open to once-called “weird hobbies” these days, but even if my colleagues would be more accepting, I think I’d tend toward keeping it quiet, just because it’s honestly not something I’d want to talk about all the time with coworkers, and I suspect it would turn into something of that nature.

      (My friend has a great term for this by the way, the “watermelon gift,” because her grandmother once said something about liking watermelons, and her whole family for lack of any deeper insight into her likes/dislikes, proceeded to buy her watermelon-themed objects of all shapes and sizes (clocks, cushions, dishware, towels) for decades after. By the end, even her grandmother was sick of watermelons. Don’t let your hobby become your office watermelon gift, Rebel!)

    29. Snek*

      Personally, I just like to keep my lives separate from each other, but that also stems from me and my team not really being friends. We work well together, but our personalities and stuff just don’t mesh and I’m cool with that, purely because yeah, work/life separation, please. Your friends might be like that, they might not, but they have their reasons. I think since it’s not like it’s grossly inappropriate or anything, they may just want to keep it to themselves.

    30. Jules the Third*

      Mmmm, if it’s a hobby that’s been publicized as having a sexual side to it (furries, burlesque) then you should be very careful about it. It’s very easy for the grapevine to get it wrong, and to add inappropriate speculation. A lot depends on the size and culture of the company. Are there people in it who never work with you? Is it a little conservative?

      In general, mixing work and personal lives has a lot of potential pitfalls, and anything even sorta tangentally salacious is something you should actually think about carefully, not just toss out there randomly. One of my friends doesn’t even talk about her aerial acrobatics hobby because she may choose to perform sometime and her costume would be skimpy, while a different friend posts about it all the time, because it’s just another (fun!) form of exercise for her.

      1. Jules the Third*

        btw, even belly dancing has (unfortunately) been sexualized in a lot of areas of the US. So you might want to check with your tight-lipped friends about *why* they are quiet about it. They may be aware of something in your environment that you don’t know.

    31. Lilac*

      As another cosplayer, which I assume is your hobby (or close), I also talk about it at work, and my coworkers think it’s neat! I’ve had friends on both sides of this equation, so I recommend that you do what makes you happy! I’ve had coworkers who had no hobbies at all, I always thought they were far weirder than folks who talked about their interests and passions. :)

      2. Specialk9*

        As a counterpoint, I think cosplay has a juvenile and sexual vibe for many people, fair or not. I’d keep it to myself, except for Halloween or other costume events.

    32. Solo*

      Some people really want to keep their work life separate from their non-work life. :) It can be for lots of reasons, like “had a bad experience with a clingy coworker” or “had a bad experience with a scene friend who turned weird and I don’t want that to possibly happen with a coworker” or even “I need to not think about work at my hobby, and if Coworker shows up, I can’t do that.” If the hobby relates to, or is a way for your friend to express, a marginalized identity, it can feel especially sensitive to protect that at work for some people. (For example, I enjoy talking to coworkers about Geeky Social Hobby but I don’t want to talk about Artistic Philosophical Hobby, bc it’s much more vulnerable.)

      I don’t think there’s One Right Way to do it (to share or not to share), just respect people’s experiences. :)

    33. crookedfinger*

      Eh, different people have different levels of comfort sharing their passions with coworkers. It’s no big deal if you share and they don’t. Do what’s right for you and your workplace.

    34. Optimistic Prime*

      No, I love hearing about my coworkers’ hobbies! It doesn’t matter how weird they are – in fact, the weird ones are super fascinating. One of my coworkers has a particularly weird one that is awesome to hear him describe.

  6. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

    In my current job, I’m supposed to be doing 50% writing, 50% administrative work. The way things are playing out, I’m almost exclusively doing admin work. I spoke with my boss about this, and she is planning on a promotion (including a change from non-exempt to exempt) in order to get me in a 100% writing role. She said to be patient as this process, and especially at my institution, takes time. However before I had this conversation with her, I had already started job searching, even though I’ve only been in this role for seven months. I had an interview with a company last Friday, and I’m hoping to hear back in the next two weeks.

    If I get an offer (and if it pays more than my current job), how should I handle this with my current role? I feel bad, because my boss knows my dissatisfaction and knows that I don’t want to be an admin, and she’s working on remedying that. I don’t want to burn a bridge, but I also don’t want to be doing work that I don’t like. Plus, I’m worried that even if we switch my job, I’m always going to be an admin in the eyes of my coworkers.

      1. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

        I’m a little over five years out of college, so I had one 2 year, one 3 year, and then this one. I don’t know if those count as long stints or not.

    2. OneMoreAlison*

      They’ve already breached the agreement they had with you once (50/50 writing and admin to 100% admin) so I wouldn’t count on anything sticking. I kept hoping for the best and believing that my manager was advocating for me for 4 years and nothing actually changed besides my title.
      If it comes to it, explain that the company’s needs have obviously changed from when you interviewed and it wasn’t a good fit for you. That’s the end of your obligation since they can’t keep their end of the agreement.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. Don’t count on that promotion – you could be waiting for a long time (and your boss pretty much indicated as such). Should you get an external job offer that better aligns with what you want to do, take it. You owe this company nothing.

    3. Artemesia*

      You focus on you and your needs. If it were useful to your boss to lay you off or keep you in an admin role she would do it in a heartbeat. People make promises to look into promotion all the time that die on the vine. You should take the new job if it is what you want to do and certainly if it pays you more as there are no guarantees where you are.

      Never live on hot air and promises; always make career decisions that benefit you. If they lose you, then maybe next time they won’t treat the new person like this. And she doesn’t have to be insincere or bad to not be able to deliver. Your own interests should be first with you.

      1. LA*

        This.

        And this is what I tell the students who work for me, too. “You take care of you first. The place you work for is almost always going to take care of itself before it takes care of you, so you have to do what is right for you.” My powers as a manager are limited by those above me. Did I lose my best student employee to a fabulous internship opportunity? Yes. But I don’t blame her one bit, and I encouraged her to apply to it, because part of my job as a manager (especially of students) is to make sure my employees do their best, whether it’s working for me or for someone else.

    4. ClownBaby*

      I’m wary whenever I am told a promotion “takes time” without giving somewhat of an estimate. I was a purchasing assistant a few years back, doing mostly admin work for the purchasing agents. A position in another department opened up. I applied. The CFO of the company tried to talk me out of it. Saying that a purchasing agent role would be opening up in a little while. I weighed the options and ultimately took the job in the other department. Two years later there is still not an open purchasing agent role, though now they are actually close to having it (the person who replaced me in the purchasing assistant role will probably be promoted to it)…but still, two years. That would’ve been quite the wait.

      Also, people still see me as a bit of an admin, even in a much much different position and actually quite a bit higher than them….it’s difficult. I am constantly working to change their view of me though.

      You don’t have to make any decisions until you get the offer though. It could be a great offer that will make the decision easy for you ;)

      Your current boss knows your frustrations. While she may be upset you’re leaving, she will understand, or even make a play to keep you.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have also seen women strung along like this because there is ‘just no budget, wish we could do it.’ And then magically the purses fly open to hire some guy they know to do a similar job at a third more than they are paying you. Or they need to promote Fergus to keep him (net surfing) and magically the money seems to be there for that.

        I never believe it when there ‘is not money for a raise’ or the ‘promotion takes time and we are working on it.’ because I have seen how little time it takes when it is important to them to hire or retain someone they value.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I never believe it when there ‘is not money for a raise’ or the ‘promotion takes time and we are working on it.’ because I have seen how little time it takes when it is important to them to hire or retain someone they value.

          This should be on a pillow or something.

    5. Jen RO*

      If I were your boss, I would be sad that you are leaving, but I wouldn’t hold it against you. You are only doing half the tasks you were hired for, so I think it’s understandable that you are looking for a new job.

    6. Liane*

      If you get this offer and you like the terms–either as offered or after negotiation–take it. Even if your boss is pretty good and is genuinely trying to get you into a 100% writing role, a lot of that could be out of her hands.
      She might not be allowed the budget increase &/or to hire someone else for your 50/50 job. Heck, she could have all her ducks in a row today, having the paperwork done–and a C-suite executive demands that her friend/relative be hired for “your” new position.

      1. DC*

        Evaluate the interview as if you aren’t getting the promotion, and continue to discuss the promotion as if you aren’t leaving. Nothing is sure until you have the actual offers.

      2. Trixie*

        Plus the boss can rewrite job description for next new hire to more accurately reflect the level of admin work.

    7. Not Tom, just Petty*

      What BRR says. They are two different job opportunities. You have neither yet, so proceed when you have an offer. They will not be surprised you were looking. You said you were dissatisfied with your situation. They are making an effort to change it. That’s great. But it doesn’t exist yet.

    8. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      Thanks all! These comments really help. Now we’ll just have to see if I get an actual offer…

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Good luck! I don’t have any advice – but I am in almost the exact same situation – role was sold as 50/50 but has turned out to be 100% admin work, one boss understands and is trying to arrange for a promotion (though in my case I have reason to believe it won’t happen/will be blocked but I’m incredibly appreciative of his support) and I’m in the final rounds for a role that is 100% what I’d like to be focused on. This thread has been super helpful for me too.

        The additional thing I’m struggling with is staying focused on my current admin responsibilities. Logically I know that I need to keep giving this role my 100%, but I’m frustrated and dejected and bored out of my mind. It’s been a struggle to remain motivated when I have a fish hook with something that seems way shinier dangling in front of me.

    9. Jule*

      For what it’s worth, this is a completely normal situation. If you get the other job and decide to go with it, a good boss will not consider that burning a bridge! They might be personally disappointed because they don’t want to lose a high performer, but that doesn’t mean they’ll hold it against you in some way in the future. (Obviously a BAD boss will occasionally do this, but, you know.)

    10. Lily in NYC*

      I am an exec assistant who a different boss stop me from getting promoted to another department because “she couldn’t lose me”. However, they both lied to my face and acted like they supported the move and sabotaged me behind my back. All of a sudden I was “too expensive” to promote, whatever that means. I had no idea until the woman who wanted me in the higher level role retired and told me at her goodbye party (she was pissed because she was forced into retirement). So my advice is to take the new job if you get the offer.

  7. Buzz Lightmonth*

    What was your most cringe-worthy verbal faux-pas at work?

    Mine was in a team meeting several years back. A coworker, Woody, got a phone call and stepped out to take it. He came back in and said that his horse had escaped the pasture and had been hit and killed by a Pepsi truck in the road in front of his house. Amidst the expressions of condolence I, for reasons I still can’t fathom, said, “On the bright side, there’s a big barbecue at Woody’s house this weekend.”

    Our relationship was never the same after that.

    Your turn.

    1. Monsters of Men*

      I… oh my God.

      I once sent out for shift coverage to about 300 employees (including bosses and grandbosses — oh, and this was a government job, so I mean, technically anyone could apply for a request to see our emails). I did this fairly regularly, so I sent it and didn’t think about it.

      Turns out I forgot the f in shift, which wouldn’t be bad, if I didn’t title my email:

      SHIFTS! SHIFTS! SHIFTS!

      and somehow forgot the f each time.

      3. NewBoss2016*

        Monsters of Men don’t feel too bad. I once had to ask everyone what size T-shirt they wanted for a charity event. My company-wide email was titled SEND ME YOUR SHIT SIZE ASAP. Thankfully I am the only one who remembers that one anymore.

      8. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        1) I once, in an email to my boss, intended to describe myself as “super busy” but instead managed to type “super busty”

        2) On multiple occasions when I’ve been in charge of answering the phone at reception my brain has managed to revert my standard “Thanks for calling ORG, how can I help you? spiel to an old Fast Food Drive-Thru spiel, ala answering the phone and saying “Welcome to Jack in the Box, I’m Kim, what can I get for you today?” In those instances, I’ve always realized roughly halfway thru what’s happening but my brain can’t fire fast enough to actually stop me from finishing the spiel.

      9. T-Rex*

        My first job about 20 years ago,was as a grocery bagger. One night, minutes from a closing, a couple pulls up to the register to check out. The husband stands by me while wife unloads the cart. They request paper bags, but we typically put items that could be cold/wet into a plastic bag first.

        I turn to the husband and straight-faced ask if I can wrap his meat in plastic. Being 16/17 I instantly realized what I said, as did everyone else. But, the wife kept cracking jokes about it, hilarious ones! Like, “well he’s never allowed to come here alone” and “next time you say you’re working late I know where you’ll be.”

    2. SophieChotek*

      When I was a new teaching assistant – and didn’t completely understand the Excel sort function…I sorted the mid-term grades incorrectly…I think one column moved and the other column did not…which meant the first posting of grades was so incorrect. We had to do so much explaining…people who thought they had done well did not, A students were devestated over poor grades…yeah…

      1. Elizabeth West*

        OMG my boss at Exjob did this once, to her revenue spreadsheet. I went in to update it and noticed all the columns were wonky off to one side. To her credit, she owned the mistake and fixed it ASAP so I could get my monthly tracking done. (This was previous Awesomeboss, not subsequent DisengagedNewBoss.)

        1. SophieChotek*

          Yeah. In retrospect I realize how calmly my prof took it. At the time I thought he was kind of mean about it, but since he ended up having to do most of the back-pedalling and explaining and didn’t say much beyond “sorting error” without heaping all the blame on me…he was actually very nice about it.

          Since I was so new to Excel I didn’t realize my error…I don’t think of us did…until we had the typical A students in tears during office hours…wanting to see their exams…

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      We were having a meeting once (which almost never happens, there’s usually one a year) and I was talking about a problem we were having. I role played it a bit and said ‘Well what if Boss needs this and tells us ‘So and so blah blah’ except instead of using my normal voice I used a high pitched screechy voice imitating my boss’s voice. My boss is a 50 year old man with an even keel voiced, never raises it, and never screeches so I HAVE NO CLUE what possessed me to do that. But everyone burst out laughing (even him) and then he said ‘Oh do I sound like that?’ I was mortified. They teased me for awhile about it.

      I guess I have a bad habit of venting and usually if I’m venting about someone at home, and they said something inappropriate I use that voice.

    4. Blue Anne*

      Oh god.

      When I lived in the UK I was aware of the huge regional variances in accents but not good at pinning down where they were from or what kind of cultural significance they had. While working for one company, I had a colleague who had a very strong accent that was obviously British but not local.

      At one point I was telling a “funny” story and I said something along the lines of “I couldn’t understand this guy at all, he had a really thick accent, like he was from Yorkshire”. I just pulled Yorkshire out of the air as somewhere I knew vaguely had a really strong accent and was good fodder for LOL INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

      Turned out my colleague’s strong accent was from Yorkshire. I wanted to jump off the building.

    5. Foreign Octopus*

      Oh my god, Buzz!

      My worst faux pas was calling my older, male boss ‘darling’ once. I normally call people I talk to darling if I’m fond of them and I was thinking about meeting my friends after work so when he started speaking to me, I just casually said “of course, darling”. I immediately corrected myself and it took a long time for my blush to fade. Thankfully, everyone found it funny.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      So we were doing a team-building exercise that involved a personality instrument – which was really good, and very positive, except for the bit where it was describing the journey that teams can go through, and how a new member to the status quo always follows a path to get comfortable – some are long, some are short – and I might have accidentally, using the language we’d been using for the instrument, said something along the lines of my very new manager wasn’t competent yet….

    7. TGIF*

      I cringe whenever I accidentally say ‘brain fart’. It’s a term I use regularly with my friends and family, and it will slip out now and again. It’s not the worst thing to say, but I’ve definitely gotten looked from my colleagues that silently say ‘Did you really just use that phrase?’

      2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I’m a manager, and I was trying to describe the behavior of a subordinate to my manager, and could not for the life of me come up with another word to describe him than “douchebag.” To be clear, the guy was a TOTAL douchebag, but yeah, not exactly the most professional word to use. Thankfully, my manager just laughed and agreed with me.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Brain void.
        Word substitution is a handy thing. Sometimes I can catch myself mid-phrase and plug in a different word.

        1. Lefty*

          I go with “brain cramp”… “I’m having a brain cramp here, what is that program called?” It may be a little silly, but it’s better than the eye rolls and groans I got over the flatulence reference.

    8. Fabulous*

      This isn’t really MY faux-pas, but it’s an incident that stuck out in my head throughout the years! There was a girl at work visibly upset that she may have used spoiled milk in her cereal. I turned to my desk-neighbor and quietly said to them, “That’s why I always smell my milk before using it.” Wrong move. This girl apparently overheard my comment and FREAKED OUT. She got in my face and cornered me in my cubicle yelling at me for this or that. I was so distraught that I have no clue what she was even saying. Her manager had to come and remove her from my area. I’m hoping she was mortified by her outburst, but I doubt it. I never received an apology and they actually suggested that I to apologize to HER. Needless to say, I did not work there for much longer.

      1. JD*

        Who the heck gets that upset over bad milk? I mean except a few weeks ago in the middle of the night when I chugged a huge gulp. But really??? That is so odd.

        1. Database Geek*

          A germaphobe who thinks they’re going to get sick from it…. (I’m speaking of myself here – the idea that I might have eaten something spoiled would freak me out a bit. Though that would be something I’d deal with quietly not take it out on my coworkers).

          1. JD*

            That’s my point. Raging at someone, screaming and being forcibly removed upset. That is above and beyond for most anything but for sure “spoiled (spilled) milk”.

        2. Merida Ann*

          I am anosmic (no sense of smell) and although it doesn’t usually bother me too much, I’m in a FB group for others with the same condition and some of them mention being really upset when they have to deal with stressful situations caused by their lack of smell. Especially because, since it’s such a rare condition, a lot of people tend to forget, even after we’ve told them multiple times (even my immediate family members often forget I can’t smell). I’m not saying that’s the situation here, because it is pretty uncommon, and it would still be an overreaction, but in that rare case, when you’re already upset about potentially making yourself sick because of that condition, a comment about using a sense you don’t have would not be taken well.

          I once drank a whole large cup of spoiled milk at a restaurant once, thinking it was just a different % than I was used to since I couldn’t smell it, until my mom smelled my brother’s cup and realized the milk was bad. I luckily didn’t get sick, but it’s still gross and upsetting to think about even now, despite that it happened several years ago. I was mortified at the time and very worried that it would ruin the trip we had planned for the next day, and if someone had made a flippant comment at that moment that I should have just smelled it (when I can’t)… I still probably wouldn’t have yelled at or cornered them, but I’d have been really upset.

        1. Database Geek*

          It’s still a complete over reaction but in her already upset state she could have felt Fabulous was mocking her for not smelling the milk first..

        2. LCL*

          As someone whose life partner will sometimes ‘helpfully’ point out how I could have avoided some minor snafu by checking something beforehand, I totally understand the rage reaction. It’s not the specifics of the situation, it’s the ‘if you would have been more careful you would have avoided this, it was your fault so no sympathy from me’. No doubt someone in spoiled milk woman’s life took that approach with her. But it was misplaced, OP didn’t have evil intent.

          I have almost cured LP of this habit, by pointing out the dynamics behind it and it why it is so infuriating. But of course he learned it from his family, and the behaviors we learn from our family sometimes come out though we think we had extinguished them years ago.

          1. JD*

            I don’t actually have sympathy over spoiled milk. It is silly. You eat it, wish you hadn’t, hope you don’t throw up and move on. MASSIVE eye roll to this woman.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          There’s a smugness about it. “I am not that foolish to make THAT mistake. She should have know.” It’s not really cool to point out how one is superior/better than others.

      4. Pennalynn Lott*

        We hired a new manager, he was going to be taking over the team I was on. He stood up in a departmental meeting and introduced himself, giving highlights of his resume and talking about why he was excited to be working with us now. I asked him, in front of everyone, something along the lines of, “It sounds like you accomplished a lot of great things at your past job, so how come you left?”

        And then, just because I hadn’t made a big enough ass of myself, I followed up with, “Well, the most important thing you need to know is that today is my birthday.”

        It was a really stressful job in a very toxic workplace, and I’d lost all sight of any professional boundaries and norms I might have once possessed.

    9. NewBoss2016*

      Not me, but my assistant (who has some weird issues going on right now). We were working on a project last month and MY boss–the head of the entire company said something sarcastic as a joke to my team. My assistant goes “wow, you are either super nice or a super bitch with no in-between.” As I turned to literally drag her out of the meeting, my boss stopped me because she actually thought it was funny and was really gracious about it. I never thought I would have to tell someone it is not appropriate to call our CEO a bitch.

    10. Not myself today!*

      We had stressful jobs and had been joking about support animals. Our boss said we could not get a dog or cat so we were always throwing out ridiculous options. Emus, goats, etc and one of my reports had mentioned a snake. We had something really stressful happen weeks later and I brightly exclaimed: “We’ll all need to pet Report’s Anaconda to get over that!” I immediately turned bright red and headed off to HR to report myself. It probably took the sweet little HR lady ten minutes to stop laughing.

      I think I might be red again, just thinking about this.

      2. Big City Woman*

        Actually, I learned recently that there are instances of snakes being used as either service or therapy animals. I don’t know what kind of snake, but apparently they can detect when someone is going to have a seizure. The person usually wears the snake around their neck and it can be trained to alert the person that a seizure is coming so that they will sit down, get themselves to a safe place, take medication, or get medical attention. It has been challenged and the ADA only recognizes dogs and horse officially as service animals, I believe, but yes, some people rely on snakes in this way.

    12. Anon for this*

      I misgendered a coworker’s partner last night. :(

      I have two male, Asian coworkers. I called one by the other’s name. They look nothing alike; it was a racist brain fart. :(

      Ugh.

      1. Incantanto*

        If it makes you feel better several people at work get me and another white coworker confused as we started at similar times. Including the CEO.

        She’s 6 inches shorter and about a 100 pounds lighter than me.

    13. K.*

      Not mine but I witnessed it: At my last job, one of my coworkers had a candy jar. She kept an assortment of candy in it. Another coworker, a guy, liked a particular kind of candy (I forget what it was, let’s say Starbursts) so he was always asking her for it. One day he came over and asked her if she had any Starbursts and she said “Yep! This is the last of them.” A third coworker replied, “He’s eating her out!” There was a moment of stunned silence and the person who spoke turned purple, and we all started cracking up. She was MORTIFIED. Thankfully no one involved was offended and no one who might have been offended was in earshot.

    14. Ange*

      A colleague said she was quitting and thinking she was joking (as she’d not been there long), I said “easy come, easy go”. She was not impressed.

    15. Coldbrewinacup*

      We had a company wide training event and we were broken into small groups. One of the ladies in my group was in my work sponsored Weight Watchers group. At this company event, our group had to go around and introduce ourselves, saying what department we worked in and if we knew anyone else in our group. Without thinking, I blurted out how I recognized “Suzy” from Weight Watchers! Ugh, she turned beet red and everyone else just gaped at me. She never spoke to me again.

    16. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Inc.*

      Making a sports-based joke to a major political figure who was visiting our office.

      We were from different parts of the country, and our respective baseball teams were playing against each other in the playoffs. The joke itself would’ve been okay in some contexts and to other people, but not then or to him.

    17. I See Real People*

      Early in my healthcare career, I was working the desk in a busy hospital radiology department when a doctor I was acquainted with came in to use the desk for some paperwork. He had a nice accent that I thought was German, so I decided to ask. I meant to say “Dialect”, but what came out was…”Dr. X, what is your direlect?” I knew it as soon as it came out of my mouth. I had said it wrong! Sooo embarrassing! I still cringe about it 27 years later! Ha ha

    18. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      Ooh, I’ve got one (can’t remember if I’ve told this one before). I once asked a colleague if he had a sec, then checked the clock to see how close we were to lunch, saw we had plenty of time, and said “Oh, you have lots of secs.”

      I… then sat there for a second, said “Well, that didn’t come out right,” and tried to pretend it never happened.

      1. Footiepjs*

        In my teen Sunday School class, our teacher had pretty much the same story: someone asked her if she had a sec and she answered with I have lots of (or plenty or whatever) secs. Looooool.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

          This happened to me on a trip to a museum with a slightly older family friend. I kept saying “just a sec” when they were trying to hurry me along because I wanted to read every single label in every case. My friend shouted out “Miss Pantalones! No more secs!” causing everyone else in the museum to stare and snicker.

          Worse, I was just a bit too young to have had any of the sex talks at school so I didn’t get why it was funny and she had to explain it to me.

    19. S-Mart*

      I have no idea if this embarassed anyone besides myself, but here goes.

      Was talking to a co-worker about her upcoming wedding/reception. I said something to the effect of “The party’s not important, it’s what comes after that really matters.” I meant the years of marriage/sharing your life with your partner, but almost immediately realized it could also be taken as a comment on the wedding night. No idea which meaning she took from it.

      1. Lissa*

        Ha! I hear that sentiment fairly often – i.e. the wedding isn’t the important part, it’s the marriage – and I don’t think it’s usually taken in the wedding night fashion! It’s common enough even if it did occur to her hopefully she realizes you meant it the other way. :)

    21. Former Govt Contractor*

      We had a client who was pretty difficult. After yet another rude email from him ordering us to handle the defense of his lawsuit as he dictated (and not, you know, according to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure), I intended to forward to my boss, his attorney, with the comment “OH MY GOD CAN WE SAY HIGH MAINTENANCE?!?!?!?” except of course I hit “reply all” rather than forward, and he got a copy of it. Fortunately my boss agreed with me and was pretty forgiving of the mistake, since I’d worked for him almost 20 years and had never made a mistake like this previously.

      1. Samata*

        OMG. This isn’t mine but I had a colleague who sent an email saying “Suzi is so f*cking stupid!!!!”…to Suzi. She meant to sent it to Shannon.

    22. Not Tom, just Petty*

      I have two.
      1)
      Hi (tech support person),
      contents of message detailing request for help.
      Love you,
      Not Tom
      2)
      At staff meeting with boss’ boss sitting in, she commented that everyone looked particularly happy. I blurted, “that’s what bonus day does to people.”
      Um, not sure if everyone at the table got one. Wanted.To.Die.

    23. D.W.*

      Not work, but in university I approached my *male* professor after class with a question.

      I started my sentence, “Hey mom, I have a question…” He laughed and it was a running joke for the rest of the semester.

    24. Anon Accountant*

      Shady client, friend of my shady boss. Shady client was suing his prior accountant and we provided “litigation support”. He was unable to provide support to us to draft a report for the court. I kept asking and received nothing.

      My boss ordered me to “come up with something because no one will pay that much attention to it”. I asked him “do you are ordering me to prepare a fraudulent report?!” And he said “it’s not fraudulent, it’s just not the whole truth. We just need something for the court and you’re supposed to be on our side. And I’ll stand behind you!”.

      I yelled “ you are ordering me to commit PERJURY? I didn’t get a CPA license to lose it for a slime ball. I’m not risking my license or jail for anyone!”. The managing partner thankfully stepped in and told him no false reports were leaving his office.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Wow sorry so long! FYI in my state perjury is a felony and can get you 5 years in jail plus a $5,000 fine.

        I spent almost $10,000 on CPA costs, review classes, and extra classes to meet my states requirements. And the shady client lost his court case, lack of evidence!

    25. Ramona Flowers*

      This was a friend’s but it’s too good not to share. Friend was Facebook-slacking at work, phone rings, she picks up and says: “Hello Facebook.”

      (She did not work at Facebook)

      Thank you all – I am laughing so loudly on the London tube that I’m getting Looks.

      1. Nolan*

        Omg, I just remembered one, my last job was in retail, and we had a big spiel to rattle off when answering the phone. My job before that was also retail, also with a lengthy spiel for answering phones. So, one day, a few weeks into the new job, the phone rings, I pick it up and say, “thank you for calling TownName Blockbuster, [something something late fees], this is Nolan speaking, how may I help you?” And was greeted by my boss, who was really confused, because neither of us worked for Blockbuster, that was my old job. I didn’t even realize that I’d said the wrong greeting, and for weeks after that wondered if I’d done it to customers who either didn’t notice or thought they had the wrong number.

      2. Lawception*

        LMAO. I am a receptionist and this has happened to me several times when I am reading on my screen and then I blurt it out.

      3. bunanza*

        Ha!

        Last year, my best friend was going through some rough personal stuff and she was on my mind–so one day I answered my office phone with “Good morning, ORG, this is [Best Friend]—I mean, this is bunanza, how can I help you?”

        Which was embarrassing enough, but my best friend’s name happens to be the same as a coworker who left for another department before I ever started here. And of course, my boss was sitting next to me at the time, and was very very curious why I was introducing myself as our departed coworker.

    26. end_bafflegab*

      That time I explained why I arrived late by saying I’d been “waylaid.” Still blush when I think about it.

      1. Alli525*

        But that’s a valid word! If your coworkers are a little juvenile, that’s no reflection on a correctly-used word or your judgment :)

    27. Alli525*

      Not the worst (I have a malfunctioning filter; I’m working on it), but the most recent – my boss and I were meeting a colleague for the first time, and the colleague noted during the convo that he couldn’t “read” my boss (she was listening and absorbing but not talking much). I made a quick, kinda-jokey comment that she could be inscrutable sometimes.

      She pulled me aside later and said she had felt undermined, and also in case I wasn’t aware, “inscrutable” is ethnically-tinged and considered insulting to Asian people (she is Korean). I felt AAAAAWWWWWFUL and apologized profusely, especially because I had no idea about the slur. Luckily we have a great relationship and she was very gracious about it, but UGH, self.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        Personally, I hate it when perfectly good words/symbols get ruined by someone’s bad behavior. Adding another word to that list…

      2. Chickadee*

        How did she explain this? I’ve looked up inscrutable in both the Oxford English Dictionary and Urban Dictionary, and there’s nothing to suggest that it’s an ethnic slur. It’s a Latin root word.

        1. Database Geek*

          I don’t think it’s a slur like other words are but more a word that is often used to describe Asian people in stereotypical ways.

          1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

            Interesting. I have never heard that this was a thing.

    28. Red5*

      Not mine, but my boss’. Big group meeting, 30+ people. Our HR director was telling the group that, no, something can’t be done. My boss pipes up and says, “She says no but she means yes.” Cue uncomfortable silence…

    29. Samata*

      After spending a weekend babysitting I turned to my boss in a conference room full of people and asked him if he “needed to go potty” before we left for an off-site luncheon.

    30. Nolan*

      This wasn’t at my work, but while I was checking out at the grocery store a couple weeks ago (so *somebody’s* work, right?!)

      So, I’m checking out and I heard the chime to remove my card from the reader, except it wasn’t from my machine, it was coming from another register, so I removed my card too soon by accident. In my state of flustered annoyance my brain got caught up thinking “oops” and “oh jeeze” at the same time, and my brain is kind of a jerk. I’m like 85% sure the noise that actually came out of my mouth was “oh jooze”, which… yeah that doesn’t sound great. The cashier got weirdly quiet after that, and was also kind of weird to me the next week D:

      1. Lissa*

        oh god, I have totally done stuff like that and then it’s horrible because you know the person will think you said it and there is NO good way to explain, nor an ongoing relationship where they will hopefully eventually see you aren’t actually a horrible person. Sympathy!

    31. SaraV*

      Again, not me…and school, not work…
      Issues & Ethics class for journalism, super Christian university. The class is taught by the most “buttoned-up” of the three journalism professors. It’s right around the time the whole Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky scandal is breaking.

      We’re discussing how much data the public should know/needs to know when it comes to the inner workings of the federal government. The professor says “So just how much information should we be hearing out of the Oral Office?”

      Class /done. Many tears of laughter were shed as our professor stood there, tight-lipped, the smallest smile as he realizes what he just said, and a look of how he’ll probably never hear the end of it.

    32. NewBoss2016*

      I just remembered a really good one! We were having a big meeting after the first of the year. The president went off on a tangent about how people in some culture (can’t remember who he said did this) would all get together during the new year and prepare salads. Then they would all take turns tossing each other’s salads as a show of good will. He told us we should all proverbially toss our coworkers salads in the new year. He had zero clue that there was a negative connotation with that phrase, and really meant that he wanted everyone to be all hands on deck. We all just sat silently trying not to lose it.

      2. NewBoss2016*

        This happened years ago, and I finally just thought to google what in the heck he was talking about. Turns out he was kind of right, just had his story a little wrong. According to Wiki, the Cantonese make a salad called Yu Sheng, and it is sometimes tossed (thrown into the air) for good fortune during New Year festivities. The more you know!

      4. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

        Well I know what my New Years Eve toasts are going to be from now on.

        Let us all toss each other’s salads in the new year!

    33. Not in NYC Any More*

      Two stand out –
      1. I worked for a huge, multinational financial services company. One day I sent out a group email titled “Friday’s Pubic Offering In Investor Relations Office” (after that I made sure “pubic” always popped up in spell check since there is no way I’d ever need to use that word at work)

      2. Had too many windows open on screen. Office manager, who wasn’t a native English speaker, IM’d me asking what xoxoxoxo meant. I read the message out of the corner of my eye when it popped up in the corner of my screen and typed “hugs and kisses” in the open window in front of me and hit send. Problem was that window was an email to important investor. Yes, we loved him, but not most appropriate note. He found it funny and responded – “back at ya… I think”

    34. Arjay*

      Not too cringe-worthy, but recently I said good night to a coworker. He said, “Ok, see you tonight!” I was quite perplexed until I realized he had accidentally combined two more normal sentiments – “Have a good night” and “See you tomorrow.”

    35. Polity*

      I was at happy hour with some senior colleagues, some of whom were from Texas.

      We were talking about odd hobbies. Somebody brought up knitting. One of the Texans said, very authoritatively, that nobody knits in Texas.

      I have an in-law who loves knitting and lives in Texas. I chimed in with “But, I know a Texan knitter!” The conversation stopped dead and everyone looked at me like I had grown antlers. The authoritative Texan said, “I can’t believe you just said that!” in horror. I very quietly and confusedly said, “I’m not sure what I’ve said wrong. I have a sister-in-law in Texas who loves knitting… is that really considered bad there?”

      Then the authoritative Texan goes “Oh. Oh! Oh. I thought you said a different word.” And everyone else laughs. And I finally realize that when I said “knitter”, as in one who knits, what they heard was a horrible racial slur. And I, horrified they would think this, turned bright red and wanted to go hide in a bathroom for the next, oh, week or so.

    36. Anonymous Coward*

      I had a big presentation for my whole team, and as I rounded the home stretch into my main point, I excitedly said, “And this is the solution to Boss Barbara’s big ask–” meaning the most important question/problem she’d tasked me with solving. Barbara misheard and stopped my whole presentation with a horrified “Did you just say I had a big ass?!?!”

      No, no I did not. But good luck getting the gigglers to settle down again for the conclusion.

    37. AnonForThis*

      Anon for this because no chance anyone who was there doesn’t remember:

      High school opening meeting of the year with all faculty and staff. School mascot is the cougars. Principal goes on a long motivational speech about how we need to be ready for anything and to surprise people with our high performance. He makes an analogy to a nature show he saw: “We’re the cougars! We’re ready for anything! Cougars take ’em from behind!” He then leads the faculty in a chant of “Cougars take ’em from behind!”

      He had no idea.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        Well, I’ve had barbecued pronghorn antelope that was accidentally killed by a wildlife biologist before, so maybe it’s possible? (Not really!)

    39. Fenchurch*

      I was working in a call center environment at the time. Instead of saying “Let me place you on hold” to a caller instead it came out “Let me hold you.”

      I died a bit that day.

    40. Sled dog mama*

      Not mine and actually totally intentional but would have qualified if any one besides me at old job had heard.
      My boss walked into our office (shared, onsite at client) and says to me “would your husband mind if I gave you some afternoon delight?”

      He and I are both very into craft beer and he was referring to a specific beer (called afternoon delight) he brought me from a business trip. We frequently brought each other beers and he and my husband were and are still good friends so this was not a strange occurrence for him to walk in after a trip and declare he had brought me something but it wasn’t until much later that it dawned on me how wrong that conversation would have sounded if you didn’t know what we were talking about.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        I thought of this comment when my coworker mentioned today, “I think I gave your wife a ride once, a long time ago.” Maybe I’m secretly 12.

    41. Too Witches*

      This may not be the most mortifying and I’m no longer embarrassed, but at the time I felt like such an ugly duckling that it took me a long time to live it down. My first “big city” job after immigrating to Canada with my family was in a cafe with a lunch menu. One day our soup special was Minestrone, of which I had never heard, so I suppose I can be forgiven for pronouncing it as “mine” (as in this teapot is mine) “strown”. Mine-strown. I must have told at least 50 customers that we had mine-strown on the menu before my manager caught me, had a good laugh, and released me to my duties.
      My other favorite story from that place was when a heavily pregnant woman, on her way to the nearby hospital, wanted a certain dessert that we normally put in clamshell boxes to go, but we had just run out of clamshells in the front. I rang her up after sending a colleague to check the back for more but suspect that colleague had a leisurely joint first (yup, that kinda place) so as I was waiting the woman went “can you just wrap it up for me? I’m kind of in advanced labor and we need to go”. I’m sure the meringue tasted just as good crushed, but I was just very embarrassed at myself for making her wait instead of rigging up a solution right away.

  8. That other lady*

    What was the final straw that made you decide to leave a job? For me it was an awful boss. I’d been watching job postings, and applying here or there when something interesting popped up. However, I wasn’t convinced I wanted to go, although I had a new boss that I knew a lot of people had struggled to work with and that I was finding challenging in a variety of ways. Someone from another company reached out and I thought I’d at least interview to see what they were offering. I had a couple of interviews and they went well, but for a lot of reasons I wasn’t sure I’d want to take an offer if they made it. Then. Good grief, then. Then, despite telling my boss that during our slow season our Llama petting response time would increase because we were going to be focusing on learning new llama grooming techniques while we had time, despite the fact that I told boss that since we were so slow that any delayed responses for reasons beyond our control would skew our times, despite the fact that our listed response time was in hours and we were responding in minutes, despite the fact that I’d specifically and repeatedly asked if the boss wanted to give us new response time goals, I was snapped at and lectured because the response time was 7 minutes longer than the boss wanted (although we’d never actually been given a new time to beat). Again, our stated response time was measured by HOURS (lots of them), and our response time was less than 15 minutes. Had the boss told me that the response time was something that absolutely had to be done in x minutes, we absolutely could have because who doesn’t want to pet llamas? Ugh, it’s been months and I’m still annoyed. Anyway, as I was being lectured like a toddler, I was thinking if the other company makes me an offer, I’m taking it. A week and half later I gave my notice. New job is awesome and Llama petting response times are not even an issue.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What was the final straw that made you decide to leave a job?

      Usually, it’s not feeling that management has my back. If management is going to throw me under the bus, I’m job-searching. Also, I left one place that was horrible because everyone there pretending it was amazing, even though it was horrible. Felt like a cult.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        “everyone there pretending it was amazing, even though it was horrible. Felt like a cult” – what is that? I always wonder if it’s me and then I realize it’s a large group of self delusional people. While you are in their midst though…whoa

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          That really was the absolute worst. I’ve been in dysfunctional places before, but if the place is dysfunctional and most people there acknowledge the dysfunction, that’s a lot easier to deal with than it being dysfunctional and everyone (not just the higher-ups) saying “Isn’t this the best?”

        2. hard eye roller*

          This all day!

          Please include weekly/monthly/quarterly meetings where they continuously display lack of empathy for any of our valid concerns.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Usually, it’s not feeling that management has my back.

        This is a major reason I decided to leave my soon-to-be former job. Our claims volume has gotten wildly out of control with new business and catastrophic events, our insureds and agents are becoming more and more demanding, and management is not going to bat for us adjusters to tell them that their expectations of turnaround times are unreasonable. People are burned out; morale is low. People are dropping left and right – my own supervisor up and quit three weeks ago out of nowhere. We’ve told them the issues, and management is so concerned about making money at all costs, they just don’t give a damn we’re all stressed beyond belief.

        So I’m leaving. I wouldn’t be surprised if more people quit after me – I know of two other people who are actively looking now.

      3. Anion*

        Ugh, I had a job like that. Huge credit card bank. Apparently people at the home office really did have it good, but our site was awful, and we all had to pretend that working there was like Candyland or something. On our first day there they gave us a pin with the company logo and told us the only valid reason for not wearing it every day was “you left it on your pajamas.”

        The worst thing about places like that, IMO, is how lonely they make you feel and how they can make you question everything about yourself. Like, why does everyone else love it here? What’s wrong with *me,* that I’m the only one who hates it so much I want to vomit every time I pull into the parking lot? Am I really that weird and awful a person? Since I’m really that different from the rest of the world, how will I ever find a place where I can be happy?

        It was awful.

    2. Q*

      Not actually the reason I quit my last job (it was retail and I was eager to get out of there as soon as I got an office job offer in hand), but the day before I handed in my two-weeks, my manager told me that I would stop being upset over a friend’s death when I grew up and matured and turned thirty or so and upset me so badly I started crying.

      I don’t think he believed me when I said I had a new job the next day.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        So after this manager hits 30 then he will no longer cry/grieve any losses?
        He’s the one with a lot of growing up to do.
        Very sorry this happened to you.

      3. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Yikes, I’m so sorry Q. Mine’s not that bad, but I quit my retail job after being written up for “not following directions” on a day that we were slammed and I made a decision on my own about what items to prioritize. As I was getting written up, all I could think was, “You are sooooo not worth this stress. I’m out.”

        1. Q*

          Honestly, that was just the last thing he had a chance to do. He was an absolute ass to work for and intentionally made my life more difficult than necessary, I had to close on Thanksgiving, open on Black Friday, and wouldn’t let me go home on Christmas Eve even though my shift was over.

          I was lucky I got to go to my brother’s wedding.

          1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

            Yep, retail is hard enough without having a MONSTER for a boss. Good on you for getting out.

    3. Fabulous*

      Mainly the boss. There have been 2 positions I’ve quit:

      First one, I decided to quit because I had been there 2 years but had yet to receive a phone at my desk, and was only making $13/hour with no advancement opportunities. I gave two week’s notice when I quit (they only required one, but it would take at least a week to train on a couple reports I owned). My supervisor did absolutely nothing to replace me after I gave my notice, and actually said to me 4 days into my notice that she didn’t think they would be replacing my role. Ok, fine. I guess you don’t need me here anymore, so after consulting with HR, I left for the day and had a week off before starting my new job!

      Second one was because the boss was an extreme micromanager. At least he motivated me to go back to school!

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      It wasn’t so much the final straw as a reason that would sound acceptable in an interview so I grabbed chance with both hands. Although by itself it would have meant I’d even leave the job of much awesomeness I have at the moment… it was moving the offices into central London.

      Nope nope nope nope.

      Done the commute before. Not doing it again. And not spending an extra £4-5 grand a year for the privilege.

      However, things that SHOULD have been the final straw for that company included not providing expressing space (illegal), carpeting *ME* when I was once forced to do it hiding behind banners in the corner of a room, letting the landlords know we weren’t giving them their month’s notice by carrying our PCs out to the car on our last day, refusing to let me work from 8.55-16.55 instead of 9-5 which added an extra hour to my commute home, giving me a hard time about leaving when I got a call that my son was in A&E ….

      But in interviews “why did you leave?” “they relocated to central London” got the universal reaction of “fair enough – next question.”

      1. Turtlewings*

        “refusing to let me work from 8.55-16.55 instead of 9-5 which added an extra hour to my commute home”
        That’s just… incredible. Everything you listed is awful but the sheer pettiness of that one boggles the mind.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Yep. If I ran I could get to train station in time to catch the fast, 1702 train, which got me in 5 min before my next connection if I left just before 5. Next train was slower, and was at 1740, which got me in 2 minutes after my next connection had left.

          The dev manager was not very flexible. Other joys included no-one taking testing seriously, so every sprint planning was full of “how can it take you that long? You just need to test it!” when I gave my realistic estimates.

          And then there was not being paid (the norm in UK, which they followed, is direct bank transfer – usually in your account about 2-3 am on payday) and being told “Oh yeah, (CEO) must have forgotten to go to the bank….”

          1. Windchime*

            OMG, sprint planning and estimates. I hate, hate, hate agile. Anywhere I’ve ever been, it’s just used as a whip to try to force dev to churn out more work faster.

            1. Akcipitrokulo*

              Where i am now its awesome… the devs say how long, and it’ll be roughly right, and people take their word for it.

              It makes so much difference!

        2. Liane*

          “giving me a hard time about leaving when I got a call that my son was in A&E” is my mind boggler. When I told a micromanaging boss and her right hand woman, “Husband called from ER, they’re admitting him,” they were like “Shut up and Go! Now!” LOL, they looked like if I didn’t move faster they were going to drag me to the door and throw me at my car, if not drive me themselves. (Yes, I was much less bothered by their management style after that.)

          1. Not Tom, just Petty*

            Got a call my mom was in the hospital, walked past boss’ office, “mom’s in the hospital.”
            Boss: good luck and she went back to my desk and got things set up for my out of office. Like a relay race. It was great.

          2. Akcipitrokulo*

            I honestly cant think of any other place ive worked that would not hsve immediately said “go! Hope he’s ok!”

          3. Anion*

            Evil credit card bank wasn’t *that* bad, but they did make us work during a hurricane. I told my mgr that I was leaving at my lunchtime because I’d just bought a house (which didn’t have full shutters–this was before they changed the law in S FL so it was illegal to sell a house without them) and needed to be there, plus my drive home was forty minutes in good weather and of course ours was steadily worsening. He finally said okay *if* I made up the four hours I’d miss. So I left at four (it was a noon-to-nine shift).

            When I got back to work two days later I learned that they’d sent everyone home at five–which would have been the time I’d returned from lunch, if I’d stayed. Later that day manager asked me when I was going to make up the four hours I’d missed during the hurricane. Uh…never, since you sent everyone home at five, and you’re not making them make up the time?

    5. Alternative person*

      Good for you.

      At my last job it was my co-worker shouting at me in front of clients for doing something at the normal time that she had deigned to change without telling me. I had been out with bronchitis earlier in the week and out with the flu three weeks before that. I had zero energy and was on my feet out of sheer force of will and I basically just shut down. I told the bosses I was resigning with immediate effect about two hours later and walked out. She and the other staff had barely cared to ask how I was let alone take some of the labour intensive work off my plate. This was after five months of being treated like a drudge and being expected to bend to whatever whims/scheduling they expected with minimal notice.

      I then had to go to the labour board and basically sue the company to get my final paycheck which just further proved the kind of people they were.

      I had already arranged an interview with another company I had previously done contract work for and they offered me the job in the interview. Management is nice but naive and the processes are kind of lax, so I’m intending to stick it out for another 15-18 months while I’m studying for the next level diploma.

    6. clow*

      wow what a complete jerk boss. I’m glad you have a better place to work now!
      For me, I was at a job for a few months, I let go of a bunch of creepy stuff but then he told me that he tried to track down a close friend of mine who he had never met but had once worked at the company, because i “didnt seem happy” I decided to finally quit. I told him he was creepy, a pathalogical liar, and a terrible manager. I now work at a much better place, with a great manager and way better pay. I actually got the advice to quit on one of these friday threads so I am really thankful for all the people here who encouraged me to do it. I still wish I had said more though.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      A boss who was lazy, lied about the job, and used my computer to rip DVDs all day, along with a vicious coworker. Oh, and I ended up doing someone else’s job most of the time because she would always call in sick to avoid the vicious coworker. They didn’t pay enough to deal with her either, so I quit.

    8. Jillociraptor*

      I had a very odd “final straw” moment recently. I was working on an Excel spreadsheet for some volunteer/side work, putting together a fairly intricate (for me, anyway) formula, and feeling grateful for a former job in which I had the opportunity/necessity to learn a lot of Excel and data skills. Thinking about that, I realized that I can’t really name a single new skill I’ve developed in my current job, where I’ve been for 2+ years. Definitely have developed new knowledge bases and things like that, but I can’t really point to anything that I’ve learned at this job that is going to set me up differently in my next position or enrich my other work outside of the professional sphere.

      That kind of bummed me out, but helped me re-identify a big value I have around continuously learning and improving myself, that I’m finding it hard to live up to in my current job. So, while I’m not miserable or anything, it’s become clear that this isn’t the right place for me in the long term.

    9. Very Anon Today*

      My coworker asked to take an afternoon off so we could go the burial of our friends unborn child.

      Our boss said people shouldn’t hold services for late term miscarriages and denied the request.

      I got to go to the burial, and my friend didn’t go, because she had to finish mailing out some marketing materials. (She did volunteer to come in earlier or later, but no, labels had to be put on these things that afternoon).

      I took two new jobs shortly after just so I could be out of that place.

    10. Turtlewings*

      I decided to leave a previous job on… Day 11? I had two weeks (so 10 weekdays) of training, which went fine. And then they informed me I was to be assigned to the children’s department (it was a library) permanently. I started job searching immediately. (Sadly, it still took me three and a half YEARS to actually get out of there…)

    11. TGIF*

      I’d actually been job searching for a while but what made me decide to leave without anything else lined up was when my boss asked me to take on some work from a co-worker. I was already doing the jobs of three people, because staff had left and they didn’t rehire for them, and now they wanted me to do the work of another employee who came in late, took two hour long lunches, and then left early. She also actively ducked calls from her angry clients, telling me to just get a message and she’d call back later because she didn’t feel like speaking to them. She was the boss’ BFF so she got away with doing very little work.

      When I pushed back, saying I was already at over-capacity for workload, she said they were giving me the work anyway and would evaluate my productivity after six months. They had done this with the other workloads I’d taken on and no change had happened then either.

      I lucked out that a place I’d interviewed with offered me a job just two days after I gave notice to my baffled boss. I was glad because then I could say I was leaving for another job, rather than leaving because they were working me to death.

    12. ClownBaby*

      My final straw is actually the opposite of an awful boss/not feeling appreciated.

      My boss sat me down and told me that he was going to recommend me to corporate to get me on the fast track to becoming a GM of my own store. That’s when I realized that I was no longer in a “temporary retail job” and that this was becoming a career. I know GMs make good money…but I also knew the hours retail required. The working holidays. The furious customers, who were still treated as if they were “right”. Retail was not for me. Somehow what I intended as a 6 month- 1 year job out of college, became a job people actually stick with. I went from a part-time employee, to a department manager in less than a year. My GM seemed to promote me or give me raises whenever I started thinking about leaving (I swear he had a 6th sense lol). A week after this conversation, before he got the chance to request I be made an AGM, I put in my notice. No replacement job on the horizon.

      I was fortunate enough to have saved quite a bit of money by this point (thanks to my boss’s very frequent raises). I did the most “millennial” thing possible and backpacked through Europe for a few months. Then came back to my country, visited family I’d not seen in years and found an office job.

    13. Akcipitrokulo*

      I didn’t so much quit as not come back after being off sick/they told me not to come back…

      Fencing company. Husband did the quotes and managed the fencers/labourers and wife did office work. They decided she needed help so I got placed there by job centre. (This was about 25 years ago.)

      First clue was when I was showing her excel, showed her how to hide a column, and she freaked out and yelled at me never to lose her data again and not to touch the computer unless I told her EXACTLY what I was going to do before I did it. Yelled when I put fingers near keyboard to do my job.

      I was a lot younger and a lot less confident at that point – was feeling sick going into work every day.

      Main issue was she was afraid that her position in the company was being threatened by someone who knew how to open a spreadsheet, and didn’t like someone else in her firm, doing admin work that was her playground.

      So when, on one Friday, one of the fencers closed the curtains (being helpful at end of day) and I got yelled and screamed at for 15 minutes about why I should not have done that, I was done.

    14. Jadelyn*

      I decided to start actively searching because 1: I’ve been jerked around on a promised promotion and wage increase for about 8 months now and I’m super over it, 2: I’m being paid less than the temp admin they brought in to help take admin stuff off my plate so I could focus more on the specialist stuff I’m supposedly being promoted into officially doing, even though I’ve been here almost 4 years and she’s been here 6 months, and 3: I keep getting cut out of discussions and processes related to the specialist area I’m supposedly working in by the senior specialist on the east coast. So I’m done. Since they don’t seem like they’re going to actually follow up on their promises to me, I’m going to go find a specialist role (which I’m well-qualified for by now anyway) somewhere else.

    15. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Doing old job and new job for nearly 18 months while being lied to by upper management regarding why the backfill posting kept being taken down. Luckily my immediate supervisor hated what was going on and kept me in the loop (which is the only reason I stayed so long). The final, final straw was when I got dinged on my review for not completing both jobs at 100%. Boss and I both quit over that one.

    16. Anon4This*

      I got called into a disciplinary for a conversation I had in my own private time that a colleague got wind of, decided it was about them, took offense and made a complaint to the manager they knew was already gunning for me.

    17. Coldbrewinacup*

      I was being bullied by a coworker, and we ended up in HR. Together. HR mishandled the situation, forcing us to sit in a room together to hash out our “personality conflict.” The woman verbally threatened me, cussed me out, and threw things at people, and they called it a personality conflict. Besides that, my boss refused to promote me, despite me having some of the best numbers in the department, and I was the only one still stuck in the entry level position even after being there over 3 years. She refused to give me the qualifications to be promoted, even though I asked several times and ended up going to her boss to ask what I needed to do to be promoted. Clearly they didn’t have qualifications for the promotion; it was random and based on how my boss felt that day or if you threatened to leave the department.

      I unfortunately burned my bridges by giving a hell of an exit interview, calling out my boss’s boss for poor management skills (my boss had been fired by this point), and letting them know it was inappropriate to force me into a meeting with the bully.

      To add insult to injury, because I put in my notice three days before bonuses were paid out (“performance” bonus for the previous year, while I was employed by them the whole time), they told me I didn’t qualify for the bonus.

      1. I See Real People*

        Yeah, even if the company contacts you and finds the exit interview helpful to them, it basically puts you on a do-not-rehire list.

    18. YarnOwl*

      At my last job, I worked on a really great team under a great boss in an otherwise dysfunctional company. My boss had to fight tooth and nail for us to get anything (our video guys to get new equipment, me, the dedicated writer, to get a new computer, etc.), and we always had crazy deadlines dropped on us from the owner of the company when he got these crazy ideas about something.

      There were a lot of things that I really disliked but that I put up with because I liked my boss a lot and because I knew my team would be screwed if I left. I was promised a raise, and 8 months later still hadn’t gotten it, the office environment was a nightmare (lots of guys from car dealerships), and the owner of the company was a total douche.

      But my final straw was when another manager that I was close with (not my own) told me that when my name was brought up in a meeting with a bunch of managers and some lower-level employees (something like, “Oh, I think YarnOwl can do that for us.”), the owner said, “You know, I don’t even know why she works here. What does she do? Why do we pay her?”

      I was so angry and annoyed and couldn’t believe he would say that in front of all of these people. I was hired to write scripts for instructional videos (which the owner liked to basically just improvise) and all of our customer surveys and feedback showed that people liked the videos way more when I was writing them than when he was just ad-libbing them. I started looking for a job that day, at the end of the week I had an interview, and the next Tuesday I had a job offer.

    19. Ramona Flowers*

      “I noticed you were five minutes late this morning.” When I had worked unpaid overtime the previous Sunday. (This was not meant to be a weekend job.)

      There were a lot of much bigger things wrong but this was the final straw that made me nope right out of there.

      That and everyone else got a free Particular Client Product when they started. It was a tradition, supposedly. I started as a freelancer and when I got hired on permanently I was all excited to get mine. Nope. Wouldn’t give me one. When I asked about it I was told if I really felt I must have one I could borrow one of the office ones. It wasn’t about the thing itself but being the only person not to get one.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This was also the boss who, when I told him I used to work with colleague from another office who had just taken his own life, and would therefore be going to see the grief counsellor work had got on site, responded with this stunning display of non-empathy:

        “If you feel you must.”

        I regret not quitting right then, frankly.

    20. Borgette*

      Two years ago, I was working a data support role at a non-profit. By that point I had already tamed their chaotic system by implementing processes aligning each local program, and had created several user friendly tools and reports drastically reducing the time to collect and analyze their data. Everything was moving smoothly – but I was running out of interesting challenges, and there was simply less to do. We started talking about re-structuring my role, and I was totally on-board.

      During this time, I spent a month working on a special project with the R&D team along with “Alex”, a co-worker who was awesome with numbers but working in a direct service role. Long story short, I wound up spending 12 hours the weekend before it was due re-doing Alex’s work because of a small mistake early in their process.

      A month later, the R&D team creates a new role and posts it. My manager and the R&D team encourage me to apply, and I do. Later I find out that Alex has also applied, and we’re the only candidates. I’m trying not to get my hopes up, but I’m fairly confident about my chances – I have a good track record with the organization, am more familiar with the organization’s external reporting, and I know that I’m stronger with Excel. (I was basically tech support for the direct service staff.)

      A month(!) after the interviews, the hiring manager sets up a meeting with me at a local Starbucks. No indication on whether this is a second interview, an offer, a rejection, or an unrelated project kickoff. At the meeting she tells me they’ve hired Alex for the role. It’s not a bad choice – Alex has a master’s degree, experience doing research, and is an *awesome* person – but I’m surprised and deeply disappointed.

      Then, in the same meeting, she tells me that they’ve decided to create a second, junior, role for me, and that they’re so happy to be working with both of us, and then talks about upcoming projects. I ask for some time to process the information, and try to make the most graceful exit possible under the circumstances. By some miracle, my hormonal self does not cry before leaving the Starbucks.

      Later that week we talk details. The salary for this role would be 6% higher than what I was making. (Still >15k below the expected starting salary for my degree.) They weren’t willing to negotiate on hours (I had been working 32 hours per week and really valued the extra free time) or vacation time. I asked for an additional 5k, she said that I ought to be grateful for a 6% increase. I told her that I was so very sorry, but could not accept the position. I felt insulted by the low offer and was furious at how it had been communicated, and everyone else was *shocked* that I had turned the offer down.

      Reader, I found a job offering 15k more within a month. Now, two years later, I’m making twice the salary she offered, am doing half as much work, and use tools that are great to have on a resume.

    21. H.C.*

      For me, it was when OldBoss promised us comp time for going above & beyond to launch a project, only to deny ever making that promise when I brought it up (for a random day or two off) after the project is up & smoothly running (again, from all the extra work our team did to troubleshoot post-launch.) The job was otherwise fine for the most part, but I can’t deal with promises that can’t be kept and – more importantly – lies that it was even made in the first place.

    22. Alli525*

      We hired a new senior person, and as one of the longest-tenured admins at the time, I was assigned to support him (admins got switched around a lot). He was the worst person I’ve ever met, and his terribleness was compounded by the fact that he genuinely thought he was a Good Person so never took responsibility for his behavior. He made my life hell for nine months, including refusing to follow company procedures and getting mad at me for forcing him to, plus having what I thought were candid talks that he then reported a twisted version of to the CEO in an attempt to (I assume) get me fired. Luckily the CEO loved me, so I managed to hold on to my job by my fingertips.

      He was eventually reassigned to someone else, which was presented to me as “We are taking you off Boss, you should consider this your final warning and we will be watching you, so make sure you make it work with your next boss.” I received a much smaller raise and bonus than I had in previous years, and my reputation was basically shot there … until he terrorized his NEXT admin (she quit) and then left the company after some sort of dumb existential crisis. I walked straight up to the CEO at the next happy hour and said “I told you so, didn’t I?” CEO acknowledged it, and I was promoted at the end of that year, but at that point I was so fed up with the way I’d been treated that I started looking elsewhere and got a new, non-admin gig in a different industry about 3 months later.

      Old Boss is the only person I know personally who I would not spit on if I walked past him on fire.

    23. BookishMiss*

      A co-worker showing up in black face and the boss/whole office thinking it was hilarious.

      …there have been many last straws of similar absurdity since, and I still haven’t found a new job. But that’s what made me decide that I had to leave. Now I just keep a log so that when I write my book I get it all right.

    24. anon for now*

      After a long string of communication issues and lack of teamwork, our manager told my team we were being moved from our office with four cubes into the lobby of the directors office (about half the size), where folks would have to walk through the center of our cubes to get to the conference room, and that there would be 2 extra cubes in the space ‘for storage’.
      I protested and eventually convinced them to drop the extra ‘storage’ cubes and rearrange the layout so that the rest of the team wouldn’t be constantly interrupted by people going to and from the conference room – but the fact that they had designed and gotten a quote on the initial layout without even talking to us about the move was the final straw, and I immediately started looking for a new job.

    25. superanon*

      changed name for this one, but i was new to a team from another intra-department team. was verbally harassed and put in an unstable environment. my boss (head of the entire department) and another director let above said employee go off on me for an hour in a room. they made me miss a huge family event. i was having panic attacks walking in to the office everyday. after the yell fest i said i was not coming in and wanted my desk to be moved… so they moved me to be directly in front of and across the aisle from said yeller. was told that while we had a huge deadline coming up it would be great if i could just ignore what happened for the time being.
      i put in a week’s notice on the day my bonus paid out for fear of it being revoked. i was called crass by a manager.
      just now getting over everything that has happened. i try not to waste too much time thinking about what happened. i’m in a much better place, (stable work environment, nice people, normal hours).
      the icing on this cake? i work in HR.

    26. Incantanto*

      If it hits January and the payrise they promised will happen in January related to a promotion in August doesn’t come through, I’m out of here. Especially as they’re going to play the “CEO is unwell card”

    27. Tmarie*

      I was a young 25 year old, fairly naive about certain life skills. I was working for a CPA office at a branch office and was given the task of ordering a custom built conference room table. At that point in my life, every piece of furniture I owned was some relative or others leftovers. EVERY PIECE.

      So, after a few follow ups with the partner, my manager kindly offered to do the task himself. The very next time the partner came to our office and inquired about the project I very brightly (because I was relieved not to be doing the task) said “Mike is handling it!”.

      Well, you would have thought I killed his puppy. His face went red, he started pointing at me, and said, “I don’t care if GOD tells you he will do something, you listen to ME”. I’m not even a believer, and I was gone six weeks later. Gone to a job that I had for twenty years gone.

    28. Fenchurch*

      My “last straw” like so many others had to do with a HORRIBLE manager. She was only a few months older than me at the time and I was 25.

      She had her own office to make private calls, but was CONSTANTLY having loud conversations with her mom and boyfriend in the middle of our lobby (worked at a bank) right by where customers entered. She did this the entire 6 months I was there, often complaining loudly about us workers. The worst was when she was the only person who could help a caller and refused to help. I asked the customer for a call back number and they got upset because this was the 3rd time we asked for one and never followed up.

      I told her that, and she literally said, “That’s rude. I was in the middle of a really personal call with my mom.”

      This prompted me to go above her to raise these concerns with her boss. I got REAMED OUT for insubordination, and spent an hour with my manager yelling/crying at me wondering why nobody liked her.

      I left 2-3 weeks after that. THANK GOD.

    29. Windchime*

      I was already looking like mad because of a terrible, toxic culture. But the final straw was my sociopathic manager giving me my assignments — she listed them on the board as 1, 2, and 3. I finished #1 first (because that’s how numbers work), and she demanded to know why I had thought that was my first priority? That was the point when I knew that there was no way on earth I would survive working for this stupid, crazy woman. Thank goodness the job I had in the pipeline made me an offer in the next couple of days.

    30. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      They wouldn’t let me take half a day off unpaid so that I could drive 400 miles over the mountains in December in the daylight for a weekend conference, rather than having to drive all night after work.

  9. Joy*

    (Note: this isn’t something I’d do, just wondering about)

    Has anyone ever been tempted to ask for feedback about interviews…where you’ve been successful? I don’t mean the ones you’ve turned down (‘cos I doubt that would sit right with anyone) but the jobs you’ve actually accepted?

    I know that sounds like an exercise in narcissism, but it’s actually from a place of insecurity on my part. Like…did you choose me because I was the best candidate, or because everyone else was completely incompetent? Did you spot a particular quality during the interview that swayed your decisions (and is it possible it was a misconception)?

    (This could be a form of imposter syndrome, but I hesitate to use that term here since some commenters seem strongly averse to it).

    2. Second Lunch*

      I actually asked my manager that question during my exit interview. And it solidified why it was a good decision to leave the company. I was hired as a content manager, but felt like they didn’t value my strategic direction and only wanted me to churn out blog post articles.

      When I asked, I guess I was hoping they would say they hired me because of multiple strengths, but my manager just said that “I was a good writer”.

    3. Allypopx*

      I did this with the person who hired me for my current position. He liked that I asked about the culture and his management style, and he said I presented myself as confident and relaxed. (Which was hilarious to me because I was probably quite anxious).

      I had a good relationship with him and it came up fluidly in a conversation about hiring. I think if you have a good rapport it’s doable. I would frame it as working on personal growth. “I’m trying to really get a grasp on my strengths and weaknesses so I know what works well for me and what I have to work on. What were your first impressions when you hired me? Do you remember what set me apart from other candidates?” and I don’t think that has to be awkward.

      Sidenote: Are people averse to imposter syndrome? I thought we accepted that concept as a community.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t asked about it, but I’ve had co-workers and bosses volunteer the information. “When we were interviewing for your position…. We picked you because….”

    5. Aly_b*

      I’ve been at my company for almost 5 years and was kind of wondering about this now that I’m starting to get involved in hiring myself. I looked back at my cover letter and was like yeah, I’d call this person for an interview, no question. And thought back to my interview and yep, I’d hire me. So if you give it some time the question might clear itself up.

      1. Artemesia*

        My own hiring file fell into my hands when I became department director and I am embarrassed to admit I read it. It was a very competitive hiring situation and there was a local candidate who was considered a lock by many. During my interview, one of the committee asked me if I planned to have more children. I had a two year old son at the time. I just looked at him and said ‘well that is between me, my husband and God.’ as a way to avoid an inappropriate discussion. When I read the file, I learned that one member of the committee had supported me over the local candidate because of ‘my strong Christian faith.’ I am and have been since late adolescence a freethinker. The world moves in mysterious ways.

        1. Jadelyn*

          …there’s something oddly satisfying in the fact that what was basically a polite way to tell an interviewer to shut the f*** up turned out to be what made at least one person want to hire you.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          My line manager told me she once accidentally ended up with a copy of some of the notes made during her interview. She shredded it without reading it as she decided ignorance was bliss!

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I didn’t ask, but AwesomeBoss at Exjob told me I’d done well at the interview, and she was very impressed with my editing sample. Apparently, according to her, I blew everybody else’s sample out of the water. God, I miss working for her.

      1. H.C.*

        Similar situation about my CurrentJob – and my samples isn’t even my best writing/editing examples, just the flashiest-looking ones (infographics, brochures, mag articles & the like). I have no idea that just semi-decent writing was that rare a commodity (& I’m curious at what other candidates submitted.)

        1. H.C.*

          P.S. I did disclose upfront that most of the design/layout work for those flashy samples was done by a colleague and my contribution was primarily with the text.

    7. Jen RO*

      I like to tell people good things about their interviews. I figure it will help them gain more confidence and be more relaxed in the future. In some cases, with people I had a good relationship with, I even told them that their resume/interview/writing sample were not terrific, but that they turned out to be stellar employees.

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      I already know exactly why I got hired into my new role as a proposal manager – my cover letter. The Senior Director of the team I’ll be working with said that letter was what got me in the door, and it was fantastic – one of the best he’d read in awhile. Since it’s a writing job, that pretty much sealed it for me. Plus, the manager I’ll be reporting to is a former journalist, as am I, so she and I vibed throughout the interview – she kept relating to everything I was saying.

  10. Snarkus Aurelius*

    PSA to job applicants:

    If you have to answer screening questions that inquire about your specific knowledge of a legal field and your college degree, do not lie and say you possess those two things. I will know it. You know why? Because I’m literate, and I possess critical thinking skills.

    Yes, I will read the entire application and check for these requirements. No, I will not be wowed or charmed into overlooking your lacking job qualifications. Yes, my time will be wasted because I have to manually eliminate a lot more people rather than the automated system, which is why we use that system.

    Follow directions, people! That’s a requirement in every job. You’re not right for this job, but you might be right for another.

    [insert the NBC More You know star here]

    1. Lisa B*

      I’m so irked by candidates who see we use obscure software X in the job application, put software X on their resume, and are SOMEHOW SHOCKED that it comes up in the interview. “Expert user of Software X” turned into “I’ve seen it before and watched someone use it.”

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        In interview I was asked about knowledge of X. I explained I’d self-taught and would say about 2-3/10, but was very interested in learning more. (I’d put it on CV as “Basic knowledge of X”). Got the job. And the training ;)

      2. Tau*

        I once managed the opposite. Job required X. I’d never used X, but had used Y, which is pretty similar, and was looking to switch over so thought I’d give it a shot. There was a skills test in X, which I managed to muddle through with my knowledge of Y and the documentation.

        In the interview, afterwards: “You did really well on the skills test, but I don’t actually see X anywhere on your CV. Where do you know it from?”
        Me: “I… don’t?”

        I got the job. :)

    2. Snarkus Respondus*

      PSA to hiring managers who are setting up their automated recruitment systems:

      Before automatically disqualifying people because they don’t have an exact degree or exactly 3.14159 years of experience in Field X, please think about whether or not it is truly necessary, or just nice to have.

      (Note: This is not directed at Snarkus Aurelius, and in some cases, specific exclusions are a good thing – if you’re hiring a cardiac surgeon, and someone has lots of experience in Podiatry, but not Cardiac Surgery, that is probably not going to work out well … but if you’re hiring for an IT generalist role, does it really matter that my degree is Information Systems, not Computer Science?)

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I am (thankfully) seeing more job ads out there say ‘College degree preferred or relevant working experience’ As a non traditional student who will finish in the next year or two I am so happy to see more of this! I suspect I get filtered out by automatic systems all the time for admin work. Which is dumb, because I’ve been an admin for 11 years and not one job I’ve had or interacted with needed a degree. Most need a good worth ethic and common sense. None of my friends in college (when I was young and now) have ever told me ‘Yeah I’m here to get a degree to be a receptionist.’

      2. Akcipitrokulo*

        Once worked on a system that had screening checks for “essential” and “desirable”. Users could customise any way they wanted, but most rejected anyone without essential and put forward anyone missing a desirable. So essential 2 years, desirable 5 would but through anyone inbetween.

      3. JustaTech*

        The one that is currently driving me wild with frustration is “you must have X degree *and* that degree must include 12 quarter-hours of llama combing (llama brushing is not acceptable)”.

        This is a very common degree, so they must only want people from a specific program but aren’t allowed to say that.

      4. Anion*

        …and don’t put “degree preferred but not essential” and then refuse to let through any applicants who don’t have that degree.

  11. DaniCalifornia*

    This is long, but I just have to vent/wonder about/laugh at the situation I had this week. I have had such a weird interview/possible job offer this week. I applied to be an EA/Project Manager at a firm that provides concierge services to companies. Prepped a lot for the interview. Had said interview this week and it was just bizarre. During the interview I never finished one sentence let alone two. Almost all of my responses were interrupted by a new question, or the owners going off about how well I could accomplish task A and B for them, or a completely unrelated story. Sometimes they would stop and ask each other about where they were on a certain project. The entire thing was about 40 minutes of sheer ridiculousness. I heard about former assistants who didn’t work out and all the reasons they didn’t, as well as their FIRST AND LAST NAMES! The interviewers would start to explain an aspect of the position and then go off on tangents, or other unrelated stories. It was truly like an episode of the office and I left amused yet not really sure if I wanted the job. Almost apathetic. (I think I was just happy to have a first real interview.) They seemed to give off a work hard play hard (because the company is doing fantastic) and all I saw was play. I’m not great at gauging people and am learning a lot so I had no immediate urges to RUN AWAY, but I also wasn’t any more excited about the position.

    The kicker is during the interview the owners said all kinds of things to me including:
    “We picked you because you had a one page resume.”
    “Do you have to give your work 2 weeks notice? We could use you like yesterday?”
    “Well if your boss let’s you go on the spot, would you want to start sooner?”
    “Oh you’re making X salary, I’m sure you’d like to make more and we could do that.”
    “When you work here, you’ll be working with so and so.”
    They also asked all the questions that are legal but not good to ask (“Are you married?” “Do you have kids?” “Pets to take care of?” “Is your husband okay to take care of your pets if you’re gone?” “Well you’re certainly not 20 if you’re in school but your work history goes back 10+ years?”)

    Now I know nothing said in the interview is a promise of a job offer unless they actually say “We’d like to offer you the job.” I left and then followed up with them the day after thanking them for their time and asked a few questions about traveling and how much travel was expected, when we did travel, were weekends expected to be worked? If travel was more than 2-3 weeks (they indicated that some trips were 4-8 weeks) were there opportunities to fly home for the weekend? Were there ever trips that were back to back? (Side note: I’ve never had to travel for work, and don’t think I’d like doing it more than 25% of the time, especially if I had 2 back to back 4 week trips.

    The owner responded incredibly rudely to me saying if I went home on weekends I would miss out on bonus money for traveling (which was never mentioned in the interview) and that since the companies we serve work weekends, weekends are better worked. That they don’t often fly home unless it’s the holiday. And then they ignored my other question. They then went on to say that “Another issue we have is your X salary is higher than we can start you but depending on your work with the bonuses you could make higher than your current X salary. You are young and already making X salary which is pretty good for your age and background. You should think about your career and potential and do you want to stay and stagnate where you are. We can’t you start you at X salary but you could possibly make more here.”

    Well this was the HUGE RED FLAG I needed, so I politely responded basically telling her “Thanks for the extra info, I have decided to withdraw my application. I appreciate your time.” The owner then responds with You’re welcome. I just can’t start you at X salary which is higher than others but the first year you would make X salary +$25K if you traveled 2-3 times a year.”

    WHAT?!? I finally get an answer how about much travel I would be doing. And you can’t start me on my current salary but are promising me my X salary plus $25K? Where is that extra $25K coming from? With all the flip flopping/oversharing/unprofessional I am so glad I wasn’t excited for this job and withdrew. Now I have my crazy interview story.

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        I’ve technically only had 2 with them (1 interview, 1 email) but I get what you’re saying. I’m still glad I sent the follow up email because it confirmed 100% I don’t want to work for them.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Have you ever read one of those fairy tales where the good heroine is granted the magical power to have gold and jewels drop out of her mouth every time she speaks, and then the wicked stepsister gets cursed to have toads and spiders drop out of her mouth every time she speaks?

      These people are like that, only with red flags.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        LOL I had not heard about those. I am an avid reader of this site so while sitting there I kept thinking “Alison would tell me to run away!” It was unfortunately a waste of my time, but a good practice for my job search!

      2. TL -*

        In Gail Carson Levine’s retelling of that (which is epic), the princess with gold and jewels is swept up by the prince and guilted into talking 24/7, which is quite miserable. The sister with the toads and spiders terrifies the townspeople into throwing her a birthday party every week and ends up owning a racetrack for creepy-crawlies. (eventually things work out for the better for the nice sister, though)

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      “Another issue we have is your X salary is higher than we can start you but depending on your work with the bonuses you could make higher than your current X salary.

      Yeah, I would have bailed here too. The position I just accepted had a base salary that was $3k less than what I currently make. When I told the HR rep this during my phone screen, she went back to the hiring committee of managers/directors, and they agreed to come up $5k, which is only $2k less than what I said I wanted to make to leave my current company. They also claimed we get quarterly bonuses, plus salary review is in April, so with those things factored in, I’ll be making at least $7k more than I do now (I’m not counting on those bonuses or the raise though – anything can happen). My point here is, they wanted me bad enough to at least meet me halfway and exceed my current salary – if a company isn’t willing to do that, they clearly don’t want you bad enough.

  12. Lola*

    There was a post on LinkedIn with the headline that was something like “Ask this one question to get the job”. I thought maybe someone’s found AAM’s ‘magic question’. But actually, this was the question (linked to Inc.) that they’d suggested:

    “What’s the company’s biggest threat to success this year, and how will I be able to help overcome it in this role?”

    It sort of sounds like a…reverse-pain-question? So instead of pitching random ‘problems’ and offering solutions, this is sort of asking them to do the job for you?

    So for hiring managers, how would you feel if a candidate came in with that question?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s going to be totally irrelevant to a ton of jobs. There’s a weird thing going on with job advice where a bunch of it is tailored to one very specific type of job, like sales, and overlooks the fact that there are loads of other sorts of jobs where this kind of thing will just cause an awkward moment with the interviewer, because the real answer is “it’s above the pay grade for this role.”

      1. Lisa B*

        Agreed! Now if they brought it down *several* levels, and said “what are some challenges IN THE DEPARTMENT that I might have a role in addressing or should know about or I could have input into, that would be a much more positive interaction.

        1. periwinkle*

          I asked something along those lines – what is a critical goal of the department and what would the successful person in this role have done to contribute to success if that goal is achieved? (thankfully I managed to find a less awkward wording at the time)

          Asking that question probably got me the offer, and their answer to it is why I accepted immediately. But I stayed at the department level since I’m not an executive dealing with organizational threats!

      2. neverjaunty*

        Right. If the real answer is “the current political climate, which your position has nothing to do with, and is being handled about ten pay grades higher”, it’s going to be awkward.

      3. kittymommy*

        Lol, I can’t imagine the response if your interviewing for a mid level position (or even entry level) at an international company and ask this . “Well were under investigation in Singapore, but yeah, you anseering phones for us at the Rochester office will definitely help…”

      4. boris*

        Although on the plus side, if I get a candidate for my entry level job who can provide definitive answers to how Brexit will play out in terms of our funding and solve them, she’s got the job.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      What if the company’s biggest threat to success is a management that’s unwilling to change? How is some random new person going to overcome it?

      1. Mephyle*

        Not to mention, how is one of the change-blockers going to answer that question? “Our biggest threat to success is people who think they are disrupters who can solve everything by turning established systems upside down.”

    3. ThatGirl*

      I have long asked what the challenges facing the ROLE I’m interviewing for are, and then discussed how I can help with those, but that seems wildly different from assuming I can fix the company from the ground up or something.

    4. Snark*

      I would feel amused, in sort of a tired, eye-rolling kind of way, and I’d take them vastly less seriously as a candidate. It’s a gimmicky question and, unless the person asking it would be a high-level decision-maker, a pretty useless one.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        I’d come up with something like “climate change” and then see them try to figure out how to answer

  13. Jimbo*

    Question for employees of private companies who are government contractors. How open are you in social media about your political leanings and activities? Do you feel the need to be careful — or not really — about what you “like” or comment on, share, the substance of the comments you make, etc?

    I am job hunting and I am getting noticed by government contractors. My primary background are nonprofits and I have no experience working for contractors. I am just wondering if there are best practices or guidelines to be mindful about as I explore employment in an unfamiliar sector.

    Federal employees have pretty stringent guidelines under the Hatch Act. Contractors are not considered Federal employees. But I wonder if there are “unwritten rules” known to industry insiders that won’t be apparent to those outside the field.

    I’ve always been open about my political leanings and opinions about issues, politicians and public figures in social media. I even blogged for several years about politics. I don’t indulge in abusive behavior, obscenity, or trolling. But I have taken strong stances on controversial issues and have posted stuff that actively oppose or are critical of certain people in government and specific policies.

    I am seeking jobs where I have no control over what contracts the employer is working on. There is possibility, I imagine, of working at a firm that might serve a contract for an agency whose leaders I may have criticized in the past. Is being open about your politics in social media something to be careful about in government contracting?

    1. Observer*

      It can’t hurt to be careful. I’m not even talking about doing stupid things like flipping off the President and then using a picture of that in your own social media. But being generally discreet about you political leanings is just a good idea when you want to work in that field. It’s true in the non-profit sector, as well.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m a contractor for the Feds, and I’m very political on social media, often publicly, but my employer is very liberal and so is my sole client. I make sure not to post those during work hours, even retweets, even though I have work reasons to be checking social media during work hours. But YMMV, it really depends on your employer and your client. I will say that I probably do try to be a little less hyperbolic/vitriolic in my public posts because I know it could be part of how I am viewed professionally, but it’s possible to still be very passionate and vehement and still sound reasonable.

      1. Snark*

        Pretty much all of this, as a fellow Fed contractor – though I can assume my client is not generally liberal. I tend to be pretty assiduous about restricting the audience of political posts and I have my privacy settings well sorted. I also have things set such that my employer is not visible, so that it cannot be construed that I am speaking on their behalf.

        I generally tend not to weigh in in a highly political fashion on the doings of my client agency, just as a matter of prudence, and I generally tend to express myself in a more objective, factual way about political issues rather than uncorking heated rants. And of course I avoid discussing politics at work.

    3. callietwo*

      I haven’t concerned myself with this, though I am a private non-profit agency employee contracted to the state, mostly because the company ED and upper management are pretty open with their own leanings and I’d say I’m more aligned with their leanings. I think if I differed, I might behave differently, though.

    4. Polity*

      I am government contractor. My place of business is also structured a non-profit, though we do a lot of government defense work. Both as part of our non-profit status and as part of our actual government contract, we do have to be very careful of our political statements.

      That doesn’t mean you can’t engage in politics. You can’t do it at work with work resources, and you can’t use your official position to do it, and you can’t give the appearance of using your position to do it. You do have to be extremely careful with your social media because of it. Some jobs, especially high-profile ones, are best off just never talking about it at all. If you are going to comment on it, it would help to keep a separate work social media from your political social media, so nobody gets the impression that you, the Gov’t Expert in Subject X, are endorsing a candidate because of your expertise in Subject X for the Government.

  14. Second Lunch*

    Hey folks, my current job has turned fairly toxic so I’m desperate to get out. I’d like some outside perspective though to make sure my job searching tactics aren’t too aggressive or inappropriate. I’ve been reading AAM archives on networking & applying, but I’m still trying to wrap my brain around the concept.

    I applied for a role through normal HR systems, but I’m wondering if I can email a manager that I interviewed with last month (who is in the same department as the role), Jane, to recommend me to the new role hiring manager as a good culture fit match. The job with Jane was pulled because funding wasn’t approved, but in the rejection letter, Jane directly called out that she thought my skills and personality would’ve been a great match for the team.

    Problem is, I can’t find who the new hiring manager is. I’ve tried emailing the HR rep I was working with, but he hasn’t responded. And even though they’re in the same department, I suspect that it could be a large department with multiple functions, so Jane may not even work directly with this unknown hiring manager. Can I still send her a note that I’ve applied?

    1. Jimbo*

      In my experience, unless you are a known quantity to the hiring manager, reaching out to them after you have already sent in an application to HR most likely will not make a big difference. If it is time consuming or takes a lot of effort to identify the hiring manager, the effort is probably not worth it. There was a post at AAM a couple of weeks back that addressed appropriate and inappropriate ways to apply for jobs via social networks

    2. Hillary*

      I’d email Jane to let her know you applied and are excited about the opportunity, and that you’d appreciate if she’d pass on your info if she thinks it would be a fit. (my language sounds horribly passive-aggressive Minnesotan, I’m sure there’s a better way to ask without sounding pushy.)

      I had one job where I came in as a contractor, my director had never seen my resume when I applied directly six months earlier.

    3. Help!*

      I think you definitely should send a note. Make it light and something she can easily recommend you or not. I had a similar situation after several recent interviews, where my interviewer told me they went with someone else BUT were very impressed and please let them know if they can help. This worked well for me a few times. You can just mention you applied, really impressed w the team, etc. and let them take it from there on whether they recommend you. You could even just ask if they know who the hiring manager is; I don’t think that’s weird!

      Another tactic in the future is to mention this in your cover letter. “After interviewing with so and so, I was very impressed with [whatever]; it sounds like an exciting time to be [on the team/at the company].” I did this just to make it clear I’d had recent experience with the company and had some knowledge going in.

  15. Exotic Xur*

    How should I list a master’s program on my resume that I didn’t finish (or should I leave it off)? I completed all of the course work but not my thesis. It’s been too long to finish my thesis (per university policy) and I can’t imagine finishing it anyways so inquiring about an exception is not an option. I started the program in 2011 and am five years into my career. Possibly relevant info: It’s in arts administration, I have another master’s in music performance, and I work in fundraising (all types of organizations, not just arts organizations). Also, should I take the years off my degrees; I’m 31.

    2. KL*

      I’d keep the degrees you completed, but leave off the one you didn’t finish. I didn’t complete my PhD (left after passing prelims), and I think now it’s just better to leave that one off, but leave my BS and MS.

    3. Rex*

      Given where you are in your career, I’m going guess that you have lots of great work experience that belongs on your resume. Since this degree is at best adjacent to your career path, I’d probably leave it off in favor of things that better strengthen your resume.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I’d include anything that specifically strengthens your application (e.g. if you’re moving into a newer area of your field where you don’t have direct experience but did successfully complete coursework), but other than that, I’d leave it off. I’m in the same boat, and the only times it has been useful to my candidacy to have two thirds of a Masters has been talking about formal training in a specific research methodology that’s interesting in my field. While I have lots of on-the-job experience demonstrating that I can deploy the skills, it has occasionally been helpful to show that I’m not just self-taught or winging it successfully. On the whole though, including it has raised more questions than provided support to my application, so I almost always leave it off.

    5. CAA*

      One line under the MA in Music Performance that says “2 years of additional masters degree course work in Arts Administration”.

    6. H.C.*

      I would say 40s or late 30s is about time to take your graduation years off, esp if you have post-graduate education/degrees since those fall in a less rigid time frame than bachelor’s.

      I agree with others that you should either leave off the arts admin part or indicate that you’ve taken/completed masters-level coursework in arts admin (which doesn’t give the impression that you’ve received or still in-progress for a Master’s)

      P.S. thanks for the reminder about Xur location (I’m a latecomer to D2 since I’m a PC player) :D

  16. CBH*

    This is long. A Friend recently came to me for advice with something going on in the friend’s workplace. I honestly didn’t know how to answer it. Any advice from anyone?

    Before I start, I do believe John is a great mentor that made a bad judgement call. He is not “evil”. He has a big brother/ mentor type relationship with a lot of people in the company. Sue can be passive at times which may have caused John to make such a decision. Our story begins…..

    Sue, was hired by a well known local company. The company realizes its main product is becoming obsolete due to changing times/ technology and they are revamping the whole company. Sue is known for being a hard worker in this niche, respects her peers and boss.

    Sue was hired to work for John in Department A. Sue was replacing Nick, who made a lateral transfer to Department B. Depts A and B work closely together each needing work from one another to complete projects.

    Because of how closely Depts A and B work with one another, vacation time is looked at as if everyone is 1 department. Sue is the type of person who will cover for others when out, move her schedule around etc. As a result, John and Dept B’s boss usually make sure she is taken care of with her requests.

    On a side note, over the years John and Nick have become good friends. They hang out outside of work. They were best men in each other’s weddings; Godparents to each other’s kids; wives go shopping together; have BBQs… they’re close. Until Nick transferred not many people realized they were friends. As far as Sue could tell this was not against any company policy. Truthfully John and Nick kept work professional and their social life separate. However Nick had a lot more laid back work relationship with John whereas Sue was more formal with John. By formal, Sue didn’t ask John if he had season hockey tickets.

    Sue loves to travel and put in for 2 separate weeks off as soon as she was allowed. John and Dept Boss B immediately approved. There were some tours and events she and her family wanted to attend. Some time later, John asked if she could switch one of the weeks forward two weeks. John had a two week family reunion to attend at the same time. Sue being the team player said no problem even though it meant a lot of reorganizing and inconvenience in her vacation plans (no money was lost in rearranging).

    Just for timeline clarification, John would be gone for two consecutive weeks, followed immediately by Sue for a week.

    Sue comes back from her vacation and Nick is trying to dump a lot of his work on her. Sue pushed back and questioned why he was suddenly so far behind. After a drawn out conversation, Nick let it slip that week one of John’s vacation, when Sue was originally supposed to have off, John and Nick’s families went on fishing trip and then John went to his family reunion in week 2. Apparently John’s reunion plans weren’t formalized when he asked for the switch. Somehow Nick was invited to the reunion but couldn’t get off. End result John and Nick’s families went fishing and John attended the reunion missing part of it (for fishing).

    Let’s just say Sue was furious. On one hand it’s not Sue’s concern what John does on his vacation. On the other hand Sue’s family rearranged a very detailed planned international travel itinerary so John could go to a “family reunion”. In fact in the rearranged schedule, only about 90% could be accomplished that was in the original schedule. Based on company policies Sue should have had first choice for the vacation since she had her request in first. Dept B Boss had no idea any of this happened.

    John is noticing that Sue has been distant lately – no quick small talk breaks with him, keeping to herself around him, etc. Sue is not being rude, she still socializes with both departments and is her cheery self. Sue just feels like she is being petty and disrespectful if she tries to defend her annoyance to John. Whether John’s actions were innocent or intentional to get the week off, Friend doesn’t think John has a clue as to why Sue is ticked off. So should Sue say anything? How should she handle this? Friend says Sue is so furious being lied to. Sue has only vented to Friend outside the office.

    Just an FYI I am writing this as an inquiry as this issue has already been resolved in the workplace.

    1. WellRed*

      Regardless of the reason John was on vacation, the end result would have been the same. I mean, it wasn’t his best decision, but really, it’s not her business why he was out. Also, maybe Sue should stop overaccomodating everyone and everything at her job.

      1. Artemesia*

        She felt compelled as a subordinate to accommodate his ‘very important’ event which he then bagged to screw around with his friend i.e. the event wasn’t that important. She inconvenienced her entire family and loused up their vacation.

        I don’t know what can be done now, but I hope she has learned to make her own needs a priority and not be pushed around by bosses. It is a fundamental principle of power that bosses should know to their bones, that their requests are obligatory or viewed that way by subordinates. They should not casually trash other people’s plans just because they can. This is all on John for being an insensitive clod and not honoring the plans long approved and then not finding out if changes would be seriously inconvenient.

    2. Susanne*

      I think a tightly edited version of this story might get better response. There’s entirely too much backstory that seems irrelevant and I don’t get why the Nick piece is so important. It seems like the short version is – Sue asked for specific vacation times, John approved, then John asked her to switch so she did, and now she’s annoyed because … I’m not quite sure? What does Nick attending or not attending any vacation have to do with this?

      1. neverjaunty*

        It sounds like what’s really going on is that John and Nick are taking advantage of Sue being ready and willing to rearrange her life when they snap their fingers, and the thing that finally made Sue upset is that John lied to her. He didn’t say ‘me and my buddy Nick want to go fishing’, he told her it was a family obligation.

        And I’ll bet this is the first time that Sue has noticed, even on an unconscious level, that John doesn’t give her the respect she feels she has earned through her work ethic and willingness to bend over backward.

        What I don’t understand is the disclaimer about John not being evil or just having ‘bad judgment’. Literally, what does it matter what’s going on with John’s inner life? His and Nick’s *behavior* is pretty standard Self-Absorbed Dudeboss: a female subordinate is ultra-hardworking and accommodating and doesn’t complain, so, why not push work off on her / ask her to rearrange her life for your convenience / feed her a line of bullshit about why she needs to mess up her own vacation in favor of yours?

        What Sue should do is 1) stop bending herself in pretzels for John, 2) read Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office and take it to heart, and 3) get a job somewhere else.

        2. CBH*

          Hi Neverjaunty – just to clear a few things. I put the disclaimers because John is a somewhat new manager. He’s been in his department for ages as a one man show (and eventually with just him and Nick) and has grown, he was the natural choice for the manager position. So while he knows the job and industry, he is new to management. From what I am told, I honestly don’t think John realized what he was doing was wrong, which is why I put the disclaimer for bad judgement. I think the whole scenario was a wake up call for John.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Sure, but this isn’t just a failure of management skills as it is a failure of character. John lied to Sue for his own convenience, knowing (because she is dedicated, and because she is his subordinate) that she would rearrange her vacation. It would be jobnoxious if he pulled this on a close friend, too. I do hope he really understands why this was such a jerk move.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      Hmmmm.

      Interesting.

      I can definitely understand Sue’s annoyance. If I’d worked hard to accommodate someone else and then discovered that they hadn’t done the thing they’d said they were going to do, I’d be peeved. It’s like asking for a day off to go to a doctor’s appointment, having people organise around you, only to have the appointment cancelled and take the day off anyway.

      However, that’s not the issue. The issue here is how Sue should handle it.

      As John has noticed that she’s a little more distant lately, it might be worth having a conversation to nip any tension in the bud. A small thing can lead to a big thing and before you know it good employees are leaving. I’d recommend that Sue and John sit down and have a chat. A possible script could be:

      “When you asked me to change my vacation week, I was happy to do so because I thought I was helping you out. However, I now realise that your plans weren’t finalised when you asked me. It was very inconvenient to change my travel plans like that and I feel upset that my holiday was disrupted by this [I was going to write “by your poor planning” but that feels a little accusatory). I hope that I’ve shown over the years that I’m more than happy to help other people out in various situations , yet I’m feeling that the same isn’t being reciprocated. How can we make sure that this doesn’t happen again?”

      I’m not 100% happy with the above but I’m sure other people will have better scripts.

      The important thing is that seems like a one-time poor judgement thing, not a pattern. Sue might also raise the possibility of favouritism between John and Nick, particularly if they’re taking holidays together and it’s affecting other employees vacation times.

      I’m not sure if any of this is what you’re looking for but I’d love to hear if Sue does talk to John.

    4. Haley*

      I agree, I have no idea what Nick has to do with this situation and a lot of the backstory could be edited out.

      In my opinon, I think what John did was wrong since basically took advantage of Sue’s accommodation and lying about why he needed her to change his plans. That said, Sue needs to grow a backbone – she should have said no to rearranging her vacation if it was already planned and she was approved for the time first.
      What role is your friend in all of this? Is your friend a colleague, a manager? I don’t know your workplace culture but it might make Sue feel better to actually stand up for herself and say something (even after the fact) and say “Hey, I don’t appreciate what you did, I think you took advantage of me being accommodating in the past in a way that really impacted my family’s plans, and from now on do not be surprised if I am less accommodating in the future.”

      If she’s not comfortable doing that, she can’t just keep stewing on this. She has to move on and realize that people will take advantage of her like what happened and she needs to start standing up for herself and realize that SHE HAS VALUE, AND HER PLANS HAVE VALUE. This is not only a workplace issue but a personal issue and a gender equality in the workplace issue.

    5. fposte*

      If I were Sue and I wanted to stay and flourish at that company, I’d talk to John. I’d want him to know that I really had to scramble to accommodate him and damaged my own vacation in doing so, and that I did so based on his attendance at an immovable and rare event, and it turns out it wasn’t. Does he see this as a mistaken one-off or do we need to see if we’re understanding vacation priority and boss’s prerogative the same way?

      I don’t think Sue’s ostensible passivity is a thing here. John may not be evil, but he really doesn’t seem to get that, as a boss, it’s inappropriate for him to ask somebody to rearrange their prioritized vacation for his own plans; people shouldn’t be put in the position of having to push back against their boss to take their planned and approved vacations.

      1. neverjaunty*

        I agree with you about her talking to John, but not that Sue’s passivity is not the issue. Sue is probably operating under the mistaken assumption that John recognizes her hard work and self-sacrificing attitude, rather than taking it for granted. She just got a wake-up call.

        1. fposte*

          Even that isn’t Sue’s passivity, just John’s misbehavior. But I was mainly reacting to the framing in the first post that seemed to be using that phrasing to suggest that some of this was Sue’s fault, when it really wasn’t.

    6. Emi.*

      I think it was really scummy of John to tell her a fishing trip was a “family vacation,” if he was deliberately lying to get her to be more accommodating (instead of just not having nailed down his plans). Buuuuuut it sounds like Sue maybe would have accommodated his fishing trip anyway, which would help explain why he doesn’t see a problem with it (especially if he thought the reunion would be in the first week when he asked her). Basically it sounds like John kind of took advantage of Sue’s being so nice all the time, but she was being so nice all the time and should probably cut it out.

      If John asked her to move her vacation to cover for Nick so he could come on the fishing trip, that DEFINITELY looks like favoritism and is a great example of why it’s a bad idea for managers to be so close with employees further down the food chain, especially since it sounds like this started while Nick was reporting to John.

    7. CBH*

      Hey All thank you for your responses. Yes my story was a bit long. My apologies (I always joke one day I will write the great American novel and my descriptions do tend to get lenghty when trying to get a point across).

      As I said the issue has already been resolved. John and Sue were working late one night. Nick came to grab dinner and John asked Sue to finish up the project. Sue said she wasn’t able to. John was surprised but stayed and sent Nick away. The next day Sue asked to speak privately with John. She basically told him her feelings and how she felt used in trying to be a team player. It was definitely part vent and John was a bit shocked. After thinking of the situation John realized he was thinking of things socially not professionally. John has gone as far as taking a step back to evaluate situations and making sure at work there is a clear line between Professional and Social work. Sue seems happy with the outcome and many in Depts A and B have noticed positive changes.

      To clarify some questions – I am friends/ former coworker from another company with Friend; Friend is a current coworker of Sue

      Thanks again for your replies.

      1. Emi.*

        Way to go Sue! This sounds like a good outcome. But if what John means by “making sure at work there is a clear line between Professional and Social” is just “try harder not to let the fact that I’m best buddies with a junior employee influence me,” I don’t think that’s enough. He needs to not be best buddies with a junior employee–and since they’re each other’s kids’ godfathers (?!?!) that probably means he should move to a different division. Or Department Boss B should be in charge of approving time off (which would be its own mess).

        1. fposte*

          I would consider this a grey area that I wouldn’t preclude in some workplaces, but the fact that John has been this oblivious to the problem means I agree with you here. John has forfeited his “work near friends” privileges.

          1. Alli525*

            I personally would withhold judgment for a little bit longer, now that John has apparently finally realized that his past behavior was problematic. If he really makes lasting changes and corrects the favoritism issue, maybe the issue is resolvable.

        2. CBH*

          One of the areas John changed was asking for Boss B to be Nick’s manager in all aspects. Nick and John are great members of the team and the team benefits greatly by their work. Their just needed to be more definition to everyone’s role.

    8. LCL*

      I’m going to do my patented rephrasing everything in elementary school language, ‘cause I kinda got lost in the details myself.
      Sue asked her boss for two weeks off. Boss approved.
      John, a coworker asked Sue to rearrange her vacation time so he could go at the time he wanted. He used guilt to do so. In the US, a ‘two week family reunion’is not a thing that usually happens. When it does, it’s so different people in the family can visit at different times, nobody takes a whole two weeks for reunion except the hosts.
      Sue was guilted into moving her time and did so. She shouldn’t have, as it involved travel plans that had already been made.
      Sue found out from John’s fishing/drinking buddy that the two week reunion story was BS. Now she is mad.

      Conclusion-boss and boundaries at this company are weak. I’m not sure who the boss is in the post, or if it was even mentioned. Is John the boss? Or does some other person approve vacations?

      Sue should find out who boss is, and talk to that person. Tell boss that John jobbed her because she was a nice person, and she won’t be moving her vacation again. This doesn’t change if John is the boss. Sue shouldn’t waste any time telling John how she feels.

      1. a-no*

        i’m not 100% sure, but I think John is Sue’s boss and he asked her to move her vacation for him to go the reunion but it was really so co-worker Nick could go fishing for a week with boss John

    9. Fiennes*

      Pretty uncool of John to do, especially since a fishing trip would certainly be easier to rearrange than an overseas family vacation. John doesn’t sound evil, but he does sound very cavalier about inconveniencing others. Honestly, if I were Sue, I wouldn’t bother taking it up with John; he knew the full situation ahead of time and still felt fine lying to her about it. I’d keep it in my mind as I started wondering if it was time to move on to a place where managers respected their employees more.

    1. Lalaroo*

      I haven’t, but I’d try some free options first. For example, if you believe you were discriminated against based on a protected class, try filing a complaint with the EEOC first. That costs you nothing but time, and there are a couple possible outcomes:
      1. Your case is really strong and the EEOC decides in your favor, and you go through settlement talks with your employer and get compensation (monetary and/or non-monetary).
      2. Your case is really strong and the EEOC decides in your favor, and the employer refuses to mediate. The EEOC will file in court against the employer, at which point you can hire an attorney to intervene on your behalf.
      3. Your case is really strong and the employer settles during the investigation.
      4. Your case is not that strong but the employer settles during the investigation to make it go away.
      5. Your case is not that strong and the EEOC decides against you, in which case you can appeal and/or file in court after all.

      I really recommend this route first, if you are considering suing because you feel you’ve been discriminated against based on a protected class.

      1. Oh Yes she did*

        I currently have an EEOC complaint open against my former employer for violating the equal pay act. I went through my city’s Civil Righrs office (there is a state level one too). I would suggest doing that first since 1)sometimes local laws are more stringent and 2) they automatically co-file with the EEOC.

        Without going into details, I will say the civil rights folks are respectful of my story but the goal is clearly to force both parties to settle, rather than take bad behaving employers to court. I also didn’t hire a lawyer & had to collect/present/refute all evidence myself.

        I’m 9 months in & still waiting for a final judgement.

    2. LurkingAlong*

      My husband is currently suing his former company for wage theft. It’s a bit more complicated than a typical wage theft lawsuit but evidence is on his side. Is your situation similar?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      A friend sued an employer for medical bills because of on the job injuries. (The place was known for its hazards.)
      The suit dragged on for over a decade. The friend had to jump every time they said jump. Go to this doc, go to that doc, take this pill, take that pill, do this therapy, do that therapy. She lost most of her autonomy. Her life became centered around the lawsuit. She could not even be comfortable in her own yard as people were sent past her house to do activity checks. (OH, so your back hurts? Then how were you able to mow the lawn last Saturday?)
      After not working this entire time, the case was settled for two thirds of one year’s pay.

      Another thing to watch for is sometimes a settlement is meant to pay for your silence. You cannot talk about the case. Arguably, who would want to? Well, if there is any PTSD or similar issues going on that person would need to be able to talk about it. Or perhaps the person could want to warn a family member or friend not to go to work for this employer– fine, maybe you won’t get caught, but if you get caught you have a problem.

      1. Mimmy*

        Even going to counseling/therapy wouldn’t be an option? Those sessions are confidential unless the person is a threat to self or others.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I had a friend and former coworker who was fired and escorted from the building without being allowed to return to her desk. After she was fired the company failed to return her personal items and so she sued them in small claims court. After the employer was served with with notice of the suit, they promptly issued her a check for the amount she requested and so she never actually had to go to court.

  18. Sera*

    How long after starting a new job would you say your colleagues started acting like their ‘true’ selves? Not that they’re hiding anything at the start, but most of the time people behave differently around new people to what they would normally (I’m sure I do). Obviously this differs from person to person, but just from your individual experience (say using your most recent work experience)?

    2. Second Lunch*

      6 months – 1 year. Personally, I notice that I start changing around people when they’ve been here for that length of time because I stop giving them the benefit of the doubt for mistakes. I don’t necessarily show that I have higher expectations, but it’s definitely happening.

    4. Lillie Lane*

      3-6 months too. The one that took 6 months was reserved until I backed her up in a meeting. Now she is 100% authentic with me.

      1. a Gen X manager*

        That’s fantastic, but I’d argue that no co-worker is ever 100% authentic. Just something to consider :)

    5. kas*

      My current workplace I would say within the first week or so. They’re a crazy/fun bunch and didn’t hold anything back.

  19. Need advice please*

    My department has a short meeting first thing in the morning. I usually head straight to the work area and start working right after the meeting, but most people hang out in the break room for a while, have a cup of coffee, etc. before they head to the work area (where we are not allowed to have food or beverages).

    Yesterday, as usual, I went to the work area right after the meeting while all my coworkers hung out in the break room. Nobody else showed up in the work area more than 90 minutes into the shift, so I went to the break room to see what was going on. From the hallway, I heard my coworkers talking about me, so I stood outside the door to listen to what they were saying (maybe that was wrong of me, but I couldn’t help wanting to know what they were saying behind my back).

    They went on for several minutes talking about how much they hate me, and I’m such a bitch for insisting on doing my job correctly and expecting them to as well. I had a disagreement with someone the day before because he refused to give me information that I needed to do my job, and he told a highly exaggerated version of this story (he said that I violently threw a piece of paper across the room, when the reality is that I threw it in the trash can), and other people chimed in with examples of times they had disagreements with me (because I selfishly asked them to do things that were part of their job) plus some things that were just plain lies. They also made fun of me in general, including some mean comments about my weight (such as how scary I am because I am so fat I that can break things).

    Worst of all, our manager was there, too, laughing along with them and egging them on. All of this was while they were on the clock and supposed to be working, but I was the only one actually doing any work while they sat in the break room for an hour and a half trash-talking me, with the encouragement of our manager!

    What the hell do I do now? Obviously, I can’t go to my manager about this because he was not only participating but encouraging it. Am I crazy or was it inappropriate for my manager to participate in that (if he has an actual problem with me, shouldn’t he address it directly with me?)? Should I talk to his manager? Go to HR? Or just accept that I must deserve it because apparently I’m a gigantic bitch?

    1. Lalaroo*

      Wow. You do NOT deserve that kind of treatment! You need to start looking for a new job immediately. You can also go to HR if you think it will help (it should help, it would be correct for it to help, but as we all know sometimes HR doesn’t work like it should in an ideal world). But this job is not a good place. If multiple coworkers and your manager are joining together to say cruel things about you because you work “too hard,” that’s not a place that anyone needs to stay. Go somewhere they’ll appreciate your work ethic – those places exist, I promise.

      1. I See Real People*

        They do that here also. It varies which employee they’re talking about, but it goes on everyday.

    2. Murphy*

      OMG, that’s horrible! I would definitely either go to HR or your manager’s manager. You should not have to put up with that.

    3. Myrin*

      Honestly, I’d start looking for another job immediately (personally, I’d also resign immediately, but that’s because there’s usually a three months notice period in my country and I wouldn’t want to draw this out any longer than is has to be) – this sounds like a completely toxic department with a very unhealthy style of, hm, problem-solving and dealing with colleagues. And the fact that your manager joined in – wow! I don’t think there’s any saving this, I’m sorry to say.

      (And as an aside, should you ever get into a situation like that again – and I hope you won’t! – and if you think you’re able to go through with it, interrupt their circle of nastiness, pleasantly making it clear that you overheard. I’ve done this twice before and the embarrassment in the room was delicious and some of the most satisfying experiences I’ve ever had (I still wanted to cry after I’d left, though; that stuff never gets any easier).)

      1. Need advice please*

        There are a lot of other problems here, and I’d love to get another job, but unfortunately in my field there aren’t a lot of openings.

        I stood outside the door until the manager and one of the coworkers left, and they walked right by me, so I’m pretty sure they realized that I had heard at least part of what they said. They didn’t seem at all embarrassed about it, though.

        1. Natalie*

          Even though there aren’t many job openings, I would start looking for another job if you haven’t already. I hear you that it will take time, but it’s a 100% certainty that it won’t happen if you’re not searching!

    4. Lisa B*

      Depends- do you want to salvage the work relationship and stay there, or not? If you want to leave, which I TOTALLY support you on, stay classy, put in your notice and move on. If you want to stay, have the conversation with your boss. “I have something very awkward to bring up, but it’s important to me to have this conversation with you. I overheard you and colleagues talking about my professional and personal style and it really bothered me.” *allow moment for their mortification to set in* “While I’m hurt and upset that my personal life, like my weight, was being discussed so callously, I’m also concerned that there are issues with how I’m doing my work, and I want to talk about that with you to see what I need to improve on.”

      1. Need advice please*

        Thanks… I’d like to leave, but jobs in my field are pretty scarce, so I am probably stuck here for a while. Most of my coworkers are unhappy and looking for other jobs, too, and nobody has had much luck.

        1. Tau*

          If you’re stuck, something that may help keep you going:

          A lot of people don’t show their best faces in this sort of group situation, and may find themselves egged into saying something or agreeing with something they don’t mean. I can also imagine employees going along with this because they’re worried that if they noticeably disapprove the boss will make them the new target.

          Don’t get me wrong: it’s still not defensible, their actions are horrible, and I wish very strongly that you will find an excellent well-paying job with lovely people tomorrow and bid your current job farewell in a way that sends the message of “I, unlike you, am too classy to give you the middle finger but we all know that it’s there in my mind.” But it sounds like that’s not on the card, and in that case it may help to remember that chances are not all your coworkers dislike you that strongly. They’re just being cowards.

          I’m so sorry.

        2. Yetanotherjennifer*

          I’m sorry you’re working with such jerks. You say your coworkers are all looking but that they also have hours to sit in the break room trash talking and that they aren’t able to give you what you need to do your job. So maybe they aren’t the best yardstick for how easy it is to get a new job in your field. At any rate, I think officially looking would help you feel less stuck. Your options aren’t great, but you do have them and seeing them and actively choosing one can really help you deal with what seems like a no win situation.

      2. Bluebell*

        This is great advice, for either option you choose. perhaps you can also let us know how effective HR is in your workplace? sometimes they can help in situations like this, but other times not so much,. your manager sounds awful!

    5. EA*

      That was wildly wildly inappropriate of all of them! Mostly the manager!
      Honestly, you seem to work with slackers that are also mean shitty people. I would consider your options for getting out an enviroment that is toxic and a bad fit (you not being a slacker and all).
      At my last job, I often heard ping mangers talking shit about me to coworkers or themselves. I always wished I had the balls to just walk in and embarrass them. I never did. What I did do is be brave, go to them, and is say ‘I overheard xyz and would like you to bring any concerns you have with my work directly to me’ it was easier for me to do this knowing I was actively looking.
      I’m sorry about this- they are cruel children, I think you might find some satisfaction being incredibly professional to prove to yourself how much better you are than them

      1. Need advice please*

        Yeah, they can be mean but I didn’t realize until now how much they despise me. I have always been awkward and a loner, but I try to be nice and polite with these people. Some of the ones who were talking about me are people I actually thought liked me. The manager used to be a peer who worked closely with me and I thought he liked me, but obviously I was wrong about that. Some of my coworkers spend more than half their time on the clock surfing the internet (my manager knows this because he gets a monthly report from IT) and that is apparently fine, but I am a monster for asking for someone to fill out a form correctly with the information I need to do my job.

        1. EA*

          Try not to take it so personally. I know that is easier said than done.
          They most likely ‘hate’ you because you remind them that they are slacking off, which on some level they know is wrong. It is like you are ruining their screw around at work game. It is about them, and not you.
          I think some may actually like you, and just didn’t want to go against the mob so they joined in.
          I would just try and focus on what you have control of, like looking for another job, hobbies, taking care of your self.

          1. a Gen X manager*

            Actually I was shocked that OP is so calm and rational about this situation that happened just the day before! OP sounds a bit knit-picky and judgmental, but on the whole OP sounds level-headed and like a real adult.

            I wonder what OP can learn from this situation to apply / try / modify for the next opportunity?

            1. a Gen X manager*

              OP, it might help (in another job – don’t bother there!) to look at those informal communications/forming friendly relationships *as part of the job*. My preference is basically no human interaction, so I have to make myself do the chit-chat thing too, but it is absolutely necessary in office life.

        2. Jennifer*

          My officemates hate me too and none of us can get other jobs.
          You just have to ignore, ignore, ignore. Avoid speaking to them unless you absolutely have to. I’m sorry you are stuck dealing with this too.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      First thing you do is brush up your resume. You need to move on from these horrible people.
      Second, go talk to HR, see if they can do anything.

    7. Marketing LadyPA*

      First, let me just say that this scenario is extremely unprofessional and you should definitely bring it up to your manager. Let them know you are disappointed in them taking part in this.

      Second, when you do talk to your manager, ask them for feedback on your interpersonal relationships and how you get along with the team.

      Is there any chance you are coming off really abrasive? If they are all having similar experiences with you, then maybe there is something in your approach that is coming across as offensive to them. I say this because you’ve repeated a few times about “I’m the only one doing any work” and that you “tell people to do their job” – people with this attitude tend to isolate their coworkers. This doesn’t excuse their behavior, but just food for thought.

      1. Skittering Kittens*

        It’s always something to consider.
        I am a pretty no-nonsense and direct person and when I’m in a rush or busy at work I tend to become very very direct with people. It never once occurred to me that it was coming off as abrasive to others until my manager pulled me aside to tell me. I’ve found since then, making a point to have a quick non work related chat every day and always greeting people by name before asking a question/demanding what I’m waiting on seriously changed how people perceived my abruptness even though I am still very no-nonsense. It made it less personal and made me more personable to them with just that small change.
        So again, that does not at all excuse the behaviour of your coworkers but it’s never a a bad thing to regularly self review.

    8. ..Kat..*

      I’m so sorry you had to experience this. If your manager or coworkers have problems with you, they should have been professional enough to discuss this with you directly.

      As everyone has said, start looking so that you can leave as soon as possible.

      Can you do something special for yourself this weekend? Do you have friends outside of work that you can confide in, get reassurance from?

      You don’t deserve this bad treatment, especially from your boss. Sending you an internet hug.

    9. Sharon*

      Your manager standing there and talking about his employee is so unprofessional. I wonder if his manager is aware of how totally unprofessional he is. This could be seen as bullying in the UK and should not be tolerated.

      I had a similar situation when I first started at my job. I was devastated but decided to ‘out wow’ them. I have always been a ‘worker’ and I made sure that I got on top of everything. When I had to chase up the lazy gits I would not even worry. I had my job to do and they were holding me back.

      A lot of it will be jealousy because they don’t want to do any work and you’ve come along and are showing them up.

      I’d hang on in there. Sometimes in these situations, someone starts the conversation and it becomes a bitching match some people just join but don’t really mean it. Not that that is right – but I bet they don’t all think the same way.

      I wish you luck and be brave.

  20. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

    Hi all! A few months ago I’d posted here asking for tips about how to create good work habits at a new job after working in a shitty work environment for years that had left me feeling unmotivated and lacking discipline. Thanks for sharing your experience and advice. I’ve had a great start. The first few months, I came in half an hour early, kept my phone away (only checked it once in the morning, at lunch, and at the end of the work day), and double and triple-checked all of my work. My focus and discipline paid off, and I earned a stellar four-month review. Now that I’ve been here six months though, I find myself slipping back into bad habits. Not being super careful about checking my work, checking my phone multiple times, text messaging, sleeping in till the last minute and not coming in early. Basically, I’m dropping the ball on the standards I set for myself which had enabled me to do well and earn the praise of my supervisors. I’m coasting. But I want to be hustling.

    Have you successfully sustained good work habits at a new job over a long term? How did you do it? What worked and what didn’t work for you?

    1. Emily S.*

      My big thing is time management. I recommend a class on Lynda.com called Managing your Time with Todd Dewett. You might try to access this through your local library’s eLearning platform (my library lets anyone with a card access the whole site).

      https://www.lynda.com/Business-Skills-tutorials/Managing-Your-Time/143455-2.html

      Some of the main points of the class (and another I took on Overcoming Procrastination) are:

      1. Start with the most challenging task of each day.
      1b. Find your “Einstein Window” (when you function best cognitively), and protect that window (avoid all distractions so you can focus on work).
      2. Try to come in 30-45 mins early once a week.
      3. Break projects down into smaller chunks.
      3b. Set interim deadlines to finish the chunks and the whole project.
      4. Take care of yourself physically:
      -Eat a healthy diet
      -Get regular exercise
      -Practice hobbies you enjoy outside of work. Also, make sure you get plenty of social time. And try volunteering a few hours a week for a nonprofit. All this will help you feel a positive sense of identity that’s separate from your job.
      5. Get plenty of sleep! Most adults need 7-8 hours/night.

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        These are good ideas, thanks. Some fall into the “I already do these” camp and others I aspire to do.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      What changed and made you stop doing what you were doing before? If you can pinpoint that it might help.

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        This is a great question and probably hits at a deeper issue that I don’t know how to resolve. I suspect that once it was clear that had won some praise from the big boss during my end-of-intro-period review, a part of my brain went “Ah! I can now relax.” Cue the gradual descent back into bad habits (which, per The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg never leave us completely, only lie dormant besides new, more active habits). Like I said, I don’t know how to fix this.

    3. Jen RO*

      Honestly I don’t see the problem with anything you mentioned. I assume you still arrive on time – you don’t owe your company to come in early. And in the places I’ve worked in, *only* checking your phone and sending a couple of text messages would mean you are going above and beyond – I can Facebook to my heart’s content as long as I finish my tasks.
      (Based on the usual comments on AAM, I think this is unusual in the US or at least among AAM readers – but still, I don’t see a problem with taking some breaks. Your brain can’t be in work-mode 8 hours a day without any interruption.)

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        It’s true that I’m still finishing my work but I just feel like I could or should be doing more. Also, I have made a few mistakes now, probably because I haven’t been paying as close attention to my work as I was before. I don’t want to repeat that. And part of the reason why I want to keep pushing myself is not for the company but for my own self, if that makes sense.

        1. Emily S.*

          One of the points of the time management class I mentioned above was that your brain needs breaks every day, about 3 times a day. They could be 15-20 minutes, but it’s important to have that downtime. It really improves your focus on projects through the rest of the day.

    4. Fictional Butt*

      Is every single one of those things (showing up early every day, triple-checking your work, etc) making a meaningful difference in your work quality? Now that you’ve tried them all, it might be useful to focus in on the ones that are really effective and give yourself some slack on the rest of them.

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        That’s a good point. Unfortunately, I do believe that all of these efforts were reflected in my work products. I also loved the feeling –which I hadn’t experienced in years– of pushing myself, working very hard at something I really like and reaping the returns.

    5. Fiddlesticks*

      I think hustling constantly is going to burn you out pretty badly. Most of the high performers I know fall into two categories: people who hustle when they need to hustle and then slow way the heck down when they can relax, and people who hustle at a constant pace. That second group tends to get worn down over time — it’s unavoidable, really. We’re not really built to be going at 11 all the time.

      The object of your high-and-tight plan starting the job has succeeded, you’ve earned yourself office credit and a good reputation, and if you’re confident that should you NEED to hustle — and I’m pretty sure you can tell when you need to — you will be able to, then there’s no need to hold yourself up to a really strict standard all the time.

      On really busy days, I can find myself slammed in back-to-backs or typing so fast my keyboard is complaining and realizing at 2 p.m. I haven’t gone to the BATHROOM. So on quiet days, or days when the workload is minimal and I can space it out? TOTALLY forgive yourself for slightly longer breaks or doing your online shopping or whatever. Most of these things come out in the wash in the end!

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        Well. I don’t want to burn out, of course. More important than doing these discrete things is producing good work and learning, growing, and developing in my profession. So your post gives me a lot to consider. Thanks for weighing in!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you are writing your own definition of a stellar employee.
      Do they value people who come in early? If not, then don’t worry about that.
      Do they care if you are on your phone? Again, if not then don’t worry about that.

      Figure out what these folks place a high value on and make sure those points are covered.

      For keeping myself on track I have several tools, because different ones work on different days.
      Scare the crap out of myself: I tell myself things like, “Sure, get a good job and let it slide so I can end up in a crappy job again.”
      Con myself: “If I do a stellar job today I can get an ice cream for the ride home.”
      Refresh my attitude of gratitude: ” I need to keep showing these people that I am grateful they hired me so I don’t have to work in a hellhole anymore.”
      Pump up the old sense of self-worth: “I feel better about myself when I do my max every day.”

      Then there are big picture things. If we start taking things for granted we let other stuff slide. Go to bed on time so you can get up on time in the morning. Eat good meals, hydrate, exercise. It takes strength to go to work, and to remain interested in that work, fortify yourself so you can do it. Take a look at your life goals, how are those goals coming along? How can you leverage this new job to progress with those goals?

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        I recently had a conversation with my immediate supervisor in which I asked him how I can improve, and he explained that while I am doing well, if I truly want to succeed in this profession, I need to increase my output. I do believe that doing the things I mentioned in my OP help me be more productive.
        I like your tips for getting yourself to stay on track! I might have to steal some of them.

    7. The Ginger Ninja*

      I’ve been there. There’s a tendency in my field for people to become a bit complacent at the 5-10 year mark (I’m a teacher). I asked for new classes, and I took on a new outside role (negotiating). Being the “newbie” again made me smarten up and fly right, even with the classes where I’ve been teaching them forever. So maybe take on some different responsibilities, or add a new role, if you can?

      1. Sustaining Good Work Habits*

        That’s a great strategy. I might be able to implement it in some way. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

  21. Anxious Programmer*

    Hey, so I’m in a weird situation.

    I started a new job as a programmer six months ago. The other day, my boss told me he wants to outsource our programming and have me manage the outsourcers, shifting into a more project and engineering management type of role.

    I’m not comfortable with this because I don’t have any management skills, I don’t want to go into management, and the job was pitched to me as a programming job in the interview.

    I also suffer from really bad social anxiety, which I’m getting treatment for. I can handle meetings by extensively preparing (writing down what I want to say, answers to anticipated questions, etc.) but I am very uncomfortable with spontaneous one on one conversations with people above me.

    I could go the disclosure/ADA accommodations route, but I received some blowback for that in the past. I worry about getting vague “not a team player” type performance reviews and PIPs designed to make me fail and quit/get fired again.

    I would like help with finding the safest way to say that I’m not equipped to do this and I didn’t sign up for it. Thank you for any help you can give!

    1. anony*

      Man, that sucks. Seems like you need to be really clear with your boss that you are only interested in a programming role, and you also need to be job searching, since he is eliminating that role. However, it is worth exploring with him whether you could BE one of the initial outsourced programmers.

      1. Anxious Programmer*

        I think “not interested” would give a bad impression.

        What I want to communicate is that I want to take on extra duties and grow, but my own personal conditions (which are legitimate and documented) mean that this is so far outside of my comfort zone that I’m not comfortable with doing it. But I want to say this without sounding like I’m complaining about it being too hard. I get panic attacks for this kind of thing and I’ve had to leave work (not this job though) in the past over them.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Can you make the conversation about your strengths and skills and how you can best be of use?

    2. Lumen*

      This is hard, but I think at the end of the day: you did not seek a job as a manager of programmers. You don’t have the skills or inclination to do that job. Your manager is trying to do you a solid (I imagine you do good work and are valued, which is awesome) but if they are outsourcing programming, it sounds liek the job you want to do and the job you were hired to do is no longer an option.

      I hate to say it, but rather than tie yourself into a knot trying to keep a job you know you don’t want, I would start looking for something else. What you do in the meantime depends on your own safety nets: if you don’t have one, you may have to take the job ‘on a trial basis’ and set up frequent chats with your manager about how it is going. If you do have a safety net, it might be better to simply say straightforwardly that you are not interested in a management position and let the chips fall where they may.

    3. Tau*

      Also a programmer, and… yeah, I’m sorry, I think this job is a loss. If the boss wants to outsource programming, you’re unlikely to be able to stay in an individual contributor role. I suspect the most you can achieve here is to get laid off instead of shunted into management. I’m sorry.

      That said, “My job changed from coding to project management/team lead” is something any interviewer worth their salt is going to understand as a reason for leaving a job. I think it’s pretty well-understood that not everyone is interested in that angle of things and taking the programming away makes for unhappy programmers. I’d expect your boss to understand that as well. And I don’t know where you are, but in my area the job market is great for programmers and short stays are common so looking like a job hopper isn’t nearly as much of a concern.

      In other words, job search.

  22. Spooky*

    I’ve gotten myself in a muddle. So my team’s room has glass windows, and last year we decided it would be fun to paint them like store windows. We’ve kept it going and it’s been a great team-builder. But I was the one to buy all of the supplies–paint, brushes, sponge brushes, etc. I’m not a team leader, haven’t been here the longest, don’t make the most money, etc. And now everyone expects me to keep doing it. I’ve tried pointing out that it’s someone else’s turn, but no one has volunteered. Should I just refuse to put more money into this, knowing that it will likely mean the fun activity will stop? All suggestions welcome.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        Agreed. But don’t wait for someone to say, “Hey Spooky! When are you bringing in the paint for the windows?” Proactively let the group know that you aren’t doing it this year, someone else will have to.

        If it happens, great; if it doesn’t, great.

    2. Iris Eyes*

      The fun activity will continue if people truly value it, it they don’t value it then its certainly not worth you over stretching your budget. Maybe breaking down the supplies into a sign up sheet so no one person has to take care of all of it would work. Or maybe you could make it a BYOB (bring your own brush) sort of affair if you love it enough to keep underwriting it but at a reduced level. Also that will probably help people be more conscientious about reusing brushes. Another option might be having a window supplies money collection jar so that as people have a spare dollar or two can chip in.
      Also how explicit have you been? Did you hint or did you state? i.e. I’d sure be nice if someone else got the supplies vs Well that’s my turn, who wants to get the supplies next time?

    3. Admin of Sys*

      If you’re fine with the work and managing the art but not the cost, I’d say set up a donation fund. Figure out approx. how much it’ll cost to do it this year, state you’re happy to get the brushes and paint if the team makes the donation goal, and setup an envelope or tip jar or some other process to get the money. Make sure not to buy the supplies until the goal is reached. (though maybe offer that folks can get the supplies themselves if they’d rather do that than donate money. )

      If you don’t want to be committed to being in charge of the supply gathering or art design either, then that’s a bit harder. I’d say if you’re pretty confident people want to do it w/out you doing all the bothersome bits, set up a sign up sheet along with a donation jar – treat it kind of like formal potluck. So, have folks sign up to buy the brushes or the paint or whatever – basically, create a supplies list and tell people to check off what they’re bringing in.

      It’s possible that when people hear that it’s their turn, they think that means managing the art, not just funding the supply cost. And if they didn’t pay much attention to the supplies you brought in, they might not even be comfortable offering to buy paint or brushes, in case they get the wrong kind. But if you go around with a ‘commit to buying x or give me $10 to buy x on your behalf’ they may be fine with it.

      Of course, they may also all be a bit tight on money and don’t want to donate the $10 or whatever to the cause, so I’d definitely make it voluntary – if folks want the window, they have to help out, but collectively it may be decided that it’s not worth it, even though it was fun when it was free.

    4. a Gen X manager*

      if it’s up your alley, (for future years), you could find these things for a total of a few dollars if you go to a yard sale (read the craigslist ads ahead of time and look for ones that mention “lots” of arts and crafts items and/or neighborhood yard sales).

      Just a thought! :)

  23. Database Geek*

    Still job searching! I actually had two interviews this week – one was a second round interview with a place I’m really interested in. I’m hopeful about that one.

    Yesterday’s interview though… I’m pretty sure I blew it … there was a group interview with the team I’d be working with in a meeting room (this followed a meeting with the director of the department in her office) and I had a REALLY hard time hearing everyone – I am hard of hearing plus I have the beginnings of a head cold so my hearing is even worse than usual. There were two people in the group of 5 that I could just barely hear at all and one of them had an accent which made things worse. I keep having to ask them to repeat or someone else had to repeat what they had said. I really should have explained that I am hard of hearing and was having trouble and seen if we could figure something out to help but I didn’t…(one of the people who I couldn’t hear was sitting right next to me so it wasn’t like they were too far away). It’s totally my fault and I wouldn’t blame them for feeling like I wouldn’t be a good fit for their team.

    1. Lumen*

      Write them a note! Call! Get in touch somehow and just let them know: “I neglected to mention that I am hard of hearing, which I realized in hindsight may have caused some communication mishaps during my interview.” Along with the regular thank yous and hope to hear from you soons and all that. Maybe offer to answer any further questions if they did not get a satisfactory answer.

      If you bombed and they have already decided not to hire you, then reaching out won’t hurt. If they liked you otherwise but were confused by the interview, reaching out might help.

      On the other hand: congrats on the other interview that went well!

      1. Database Geek*

        I think it’s too late for that at this point because already I sent a “thank you for the interview” email to the director early this morning and cc’ed everyone else on it…. I mean I suppose I could send a second email to the group and try to clarify things but I feel like it a live and learn moment.

  24. Observer*

    Yesterday’s comment about how an employee was so naive coming from a place of naivete itself got me thinking:

    Have you ever experience an issue at work where someone naively thinking that someone else was being naive had a practical effect? I’d love to hear the stories.

    1. fposte*

      Can you expand that a little, especially on the “practical effect” front? I’ve been in situations where people thought I was underinformed because they were underinformed, but usually I just tell them why I’m right and they’re wrong and we move forward :-). What kind of situation are you thinking of?

        1. fposte*

          I’ve had to tell a few people not to correct “career” as a verb to “careen.” Probably you’re looking for something more dramatic, though.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I couldn’t find the one you were referring to. I got sidetracked by all the victim blaming.

          1. Observer*

            Yeah, this was totally victim blaming. Based on what I can most charitably consider a wildly naive view of the world. I mean OF COURSE the police would NEVER arrest someone for something they could not have done.

  25. Rulesfor*

    Does anyone have any tips for coming out as genderqueer/non-binary in their workplace? It would just be nice to be able to use “they” pronouns in my professional life as well as my personal life. I’ve already come out as trans at previous workplaces (I’m FTM and read as male by everyone; my current coworkers know I’m trans). It’s mostly made complicated by the fact that I’m a social worker, so coming out to the kids and families I work with would definitely be overstepping my professional boundaries.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I’m the last person qualified to advise on this, but I recently had an experience where I was interacting with an admin assistant in a different organization who I had interacted with before, and the board chair of the org advised us that she was now using [male name] instead of previous [female name]. But we were not advised on pronouns, and she continued to use the women’s restroom, so I was guessing she was still identifying as female, but I didn’t want to misstep. I would rather be told what you prefer!

    2. Bree*

      I think if your workplace is small enough, and since it sounds like your co-workers are good, it would be totally be reasonable to ask for a change of pronouns internally, while keeping another set for use with external clients.

      1. Rulesfor*

        The tough part, which I should have explained in my original comment, is that it’s a group home. So all the kiddos are right there. I don’t know if it’s realistic, unfortunately, to maintain that kind of boundary in that environment. Which I guess is my answer! But I wanted to throw it out there.

        1. Q*

          Maybe you could at least tell your coworkers even if they can’t realistically call you by they/them pronouns. It might make you feel better for them to just know.

        2. Bree*

          Oh, I see. I’m not a social worker, so apologies if this is obvious, but would using they-pronouns and having a very simple, kid-friendly stock explaination of what being non-binary means necessarily be overstepping professional boundaries?

          I’ve seen people do that before in child-serving environments (though for explicitly LGBTQ* organizations.)

          1. Rulesfor*

            I think the real complicating factor is that we’re not supposed to overshare (or share at all) about our personal lives. Not whether we’re married, etc. The only time it’s recommend that we self-disclose anything if if it benefits our clients, and this wouldn’t be for that purpose. I think a lot of it really depends on the environment, too, but the culture in my workplace is one where there are very firm boundaries between clinicians and clients.

            2. Teapot Librarian*

              Also not a social worker, so you know better what your professional guidelines are, but I can’t help but think that your coming out could benefit one or more of the kids. And while you say that you’re not supposed to share about your personal lives, I assume that married coworkers don’t remove their wedding rings, and to the extent that people identify in a way that aligns with societal expectations of appearance, someone presenting as male wouldn’t be “sharing” that he was male. I think there’s got to be a way to identify yourself in a way that is accurate without it being considered sharing your personal life. (Big grain of salt–I’m a cisgender straight white woman, so this is not something I have personal experience with.)

              1. Rulesfor*

                You’d think, right? But unfortunately, I think there definitely is a double standard about sharing anything outside cisgender norms, because you do have to self-identify more vocally to a degree.

            3. Jadelyn*

              Okay so, what if a trans employee were to start their transition while working there? Would the employer expect that employee to stay closeted and not transition while employed there? Fake their death (gives a whole new meaning to “deadname”, lol), then come back as a “new employee” after their transition to avoid “oversharing”?

              It’s not oversharing or even sharing to say “Hey, these are the pronouns I’d like to be called, thanks.” It’s a very simple statement of fact and boundaries, like if you had a particular nickname you wanted to be called (or conversely one you hate and don’t want people to ever use).

              1. Rulesfor*

                Logically, I think you’re totally right. In practice, I don’t know. (And I’ve often wondered about people in this field who transition on the job! I’m really not sure how that would be handled.)

                1. bunanza*

                  I’ve never worked in the social work field, so your experience/gut feeling definitely takes precedence here, but I would also think that openly transitioning in your position would actually be a really positive thing for the people you work with. Even if the population you work with is not majority queer, if they see that an authority figure doesn’t fit the “standard” mold, they may be more willing or able to connect with you. Of course, that depends heavily on what demographic you work with, and how comfortable you are with others knowing–but if you are comfortable, I think a quick, “hi, I’m [Rulesfor], and I go by [pronoun]–how should I address you?” could be very effective. Or if that seems unfeasible to you, I second (third? fourth?) Q’s suggestion above–the kids in the group home may not be able to understand, but your coworkers should. You deserve to feel comfortable in your workplace, so you should let your coworkers know if you’re out in the rest of your life.

                  (unrelated, but this question reminds me of Trevor (Elliot Fletcher) in US Shameless – I think a lot of topics in the earlier seasons are covered in an insensitive way, but Trevor is one of my most beloved characters from any show, and I think a lot of what he has to say echoes real trans rhetoric today–it’s worth a watch)

    3. Louise*

      Oh man, my heart breaks at the idea that being honest about your gender identity would be seen as overstepping professional boundaries.

      Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of good advice. All I can say is I would want to know if I wasn’t using a coworker’s correct pronouns. Do you get the sense that your coworkers are progressive and in-the-know about non-binary inclusive pronouns? My workplace takes diversity and inclusion VERY seriously, and it wouldn’t seem out of step for someone here to say either one-on-one or in a team meeting “hey, I actually use they/them pronouns and would appreciate if everyone could use those when referring to me!” But I get that many folks in many environments for many reasons wouldn’t necessarily feel comfortable saying that.

      I hope you’re able to come out in a way that feels safe and right for you, and I hope your coworkers are supportive of that! Love from the AAM queer fam.

      1. Rulesfor*

        Thank you for your support! My coworkers are pretty progressive, but non-binary pronouns are definitely out of their comfort zone. I refer to my spouse by non-binary pronouns, but all but one of my coworkers refer to them by binary ones.

    4. Manders*

      How do you feel about pronoun pins? That’s something you could wear around the office and take off when you’re seeing clients if necessary.

    5. Lefty*

      My sister works in a similar sounding setup… I know one of the situation that bring clients to them is the sad fact that many LGBTQIA kids are put out by their families. I wonder if that is applicable for the youth you work with as well? Could it be useful to them to be given the tools to talk about their own identities? If that’s applicable, maybe it would be an agreeable way for you to request training for the staff & the youth. Sometimes the youth who are in those situations are so traumatized/scared/used to ignoring themselves that they might benefit from being taught how to communicate and take ownership of their identity.

      On a related note, I recently heard a seminar about sex vs. gender; the instructors offered teen and child versions as well. One of the first exercises after the explanation was to introduce yourself and your pronouns, “I am Lefty and I use she/her pronouns.” There was also a name tag with options for writing both your name and pronouns- maybe that could be a tool?

      1. Rulesfor*

        I mostly work with younger kids (this was less of an issue when I worked with teens), many of whom haven’t begun to grapple with this part of their identity. I do think it’s helpful to set an example and expand clients’ worldviews, regardless! I just worry about getting a lot of pushback from people above me.

    7. Alli525*

      So, I work at a super-liberal college with a big LGBTQ+ population, and a lot of orientation activities for students (which instructors and staff are welcome to attend) will have fishbowls with small buttons with preferred genders. I’m a ciswoman and present as such (i.e. no one would mistake me for a man), but I love my “she/her” button and keep it on my lanyard for when I have to wear my official ID for functions. It’s small – roughly the size of a Snapple cap – so unobtrusive, and I imagine as a social worker it would be perfectly acceptable to wear one or casually have one on display in your office.

      2. Teach*

        Love these buttons! I work with younger teens and one had a “they/them” button on – which gave me the opening to ask, “Hey, I noticed your button – are those the pronouns you’d like me to use?” And they were delighted to be asked.

  26. Iris Eyes*

    I recently purchased a training potty for my toddler on Amazon. And as Amazon occasionally does they sent me a question that someone had asked about the product. Their questions was “If a business wants to improve would this make a good employee suggestion box.”

    I said no, but now I’m waiting for the letter from someone asking if they should start looking for a new job because the employee suggestion “box” is a toilet.

    3. Jadelyn*

      …I am so tempted. I mean, my other half gave me a #WTF stamp for an early Xmas present and it’s proudly sitting on my desk right now, so…

  27. T3k*

    So last time I think I posted in this thread, I’d shared that I’d landed a (contract) job with one of my dream companies and it’s been awesome so far, just over 2 months in. However, my question is, since it’s a short term contract, when/how do I go about asking about extending my contract (or even hiring, though I doubt that one as while they do hire contractors, that can take over a year of working here).

    1. fposte*

      I think you can go to your supervisor there now and say “Working here is awesome. I’d love to reup my contract with you all when it’s up in March–would I ask you about that when the time comes, and when would be the right time for that?”

      1. T3k*

        I forgot to point out, it was made clear during the interviews that this is a position of “we’ll see how busy things are” when March comes around. They experienced rapid growth on one project, so I and a couple others were brought on to help out, so I think that will play a part in it.

      1. T3k*

        Oh yeah, wasn’t thinking of asking that quickly xD I’m on a 6 month contract which was made clear at the beginning they didn’t know if they’d need me or not after it was up because, long story short, I joined a team that hit a growth they weren’t prepared for so they brought me and a couple others on and to re-evaluate when it nears March.

    3. Samata*

      I was on contract for 3 years, ending July 31st each year. I’d start the conversation in late April/May about renewals. I’d let them know my first choice was to reup, but if they thought that might not be a possibility I needed to know that, too, so I could make appropriate plans for August 1. I never asked them for a hard yes or not. The lead time also left us time to renegotiate some extra pay and benefits (free parking). At the end of the 3rd year I actually got a FT job offer.

      I will say I had a really good relationship with the boss and VP of department I was working for, so they saw my asking early as being responsible. I think actually helped my standing in the company.

      1. T3k*

        Thanks, that sounds like a good plan and will give me some time to find a new job if they won’t renew it. We (myself and another contractor) are now unsure if our contracts will be renewed because another in our position learned last month that theirs wasn’t extended and we thought they would, though theirs did end at a rough time (in this industry, all major projects are finished around Dec. until next year and his ended right in the middle of it).

  28. Mary*

    I have an interview soon for a possible internal promotion. My interviewers will be two managers from other branches (library), and my two direct managers that I work with daily.

    After the interview, should I still send follow-up emails to my managers, even though I’ll see them the next day? If so, should my tone be different than the emails directed to the managers who I rarely speak with?

    1. Rainy Days*

      Definitely still send a follow-up email to the managers. It will be a good chance to reiterate what you discussed and why you are a good fit for the role, moreso than just thanking them for their time. I don’t think it needs to be quite as formal in tone as if you didn’t know them already, but you should still send it imo. Good luck!

  29. AllDogsArePuppies*

    I’m doing my self-assessment for the first time where I have to rank myself on a variety of categories from “doesn’t meet expectations” to “far exceeds expectations”. Who’s expectations do I use. Corporate as low expectations, my manager has high?

    1. Havarti*

      Do you have a good relationship with your manager? Can you ask for input? I would say go with whoever has a say in your salary but don’t lower your scores too much or they’ll use it as justification for not giving you a raise.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      “Meets expectations” is you do your job competently and don’t need your boss following up with you to make sure you’re meeting deadlines. “Doesn’t meet expectations” is that your boss has to correct your work regularly and/or you consistently miss deadlines or don’t meet production goals (if your work is quantifiable). “Exceeds expectations” is that you do your job well and take initiative to improve either your own work or the work of the department, or go above and beyond in the item being reviewed.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would go with how you rank yourself based on your expectations of yourself. Do you think you are good at your job? Do you think you are meeting your goals as you understand them? In my experience self-assessment is usually a conversation starter between me and my boss to find out if there is a disconnect between what I expect/understand and what they expect/understand. Try and be as honest as you can about yourself. Do you excel at customer service but sometimes fall behind on deadlines? Do you think one is a higher priority than the other? Does your boss have the same priority?

  30. Blue Anne*

    My textbook just arrived for the “math for technicians” course I’m starting. Thanks to everyone last week who told me I wasn’t crazy to think about career-switching from bookkeeping to electrician!

    2. LCL*

      Awesome! If you let word get out in your class about your accountant/math background, plan on being asked to help tutor.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Ha – it’s online and I think it’s mostly self-study, but I’ll keep that in mind for future classes.

  31. Anonymous Educator*

    Any other people spending good portions of their work days not technically doing their actual job but also still kind of doing their job? I spend a bunch of time on mailing lists and a Slack related to the work I do, getting tips from and giving tips to other professionals who do the kind of work I do (at other orgs/companies). You could make the case, I guess, that the help they give me helps me do my job better, so technically I’m doing my job. I also, in theory, could be doing this after hours, too.

    1. Blue Anne*

      Yeah, I often spend time during the day looking up answers to tax questions for friends rather than clients. I don’t feel too bad about it, I’ve learned a lot of stuff that way.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Cool. That’s how I feel, too. Even though I spend a lot of time helping people, the help I get in return has for sure helped me do my job better.

    2. Tau*

      I wouldn’t say “good portions”, but I do browse some Q&A sites if I’m really having trouble focusing or work is being a bit slow. I try to keep an eye on it so it doesn’t get excessive – brief breaks only, or if there’s legitimately nothing sensible I think I can do right now – but I think doing that has made me *way* better at my job, and it’s pretty regularly that I find myself using some tidbit of information I stumbled across after lunch a year ago. In all honesty, I might be too nervous about doing this, considering how much of a benefit I think it’s been.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        In all honesty, I might be too nervous about doing this, considering how much of a benefit I think it’s been.

        Am I misunderstanding you here? I would think if it’s been a benefit, you wouldn’t be too nervous about doing this.

        1. Tau*

          I’m nervous because it’s a benefit in the long term, but it’s not generally directly relevant to my assigned tasks in the short term. And to some sense it feels like putting my own professional development above my current job, since I don’t know if this current bit of browsing will pay off while I’m at my current workplace.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Ah, I see. Well, a lot of places do want you to do professional development. Your browsing Q&A forums is probably cheaper than them flying you to a conference.

            Fortunately, for me, the stuff I do “on the side” is immediately beneficial to my organization and not just to me in the long term.

    3. Alli525*

      I work in media relations, and my grandboss said offhandedly once that “If anyone ever peeked into my [Grandboss’] office, they’d think all I do all day is read news stories!” And I was honestly relieeeeeeved because that’s basically my life too and was worried that my bosses might think I’m a slacker. Nope, we’re all just looking for potential news pegs so we can pitch our experts!

    5. Emac*

      That’s how I got addicted to AAM! I was a career advisor in my last job, so I felt totally justified in reading here every day and going through the archives, especially since I was trying to help new immigrants to the U.S. get used to professional norms in the U.S. and there are a lot of great discussions on workplace differences in the comments.

  32. DC*

    I have fantastic news! I have an interview Monday!! Thanks to everyone here I’m on the lookout for any red flags, and I’m super aware of falling into the “I just want out trap,” but I’m excited about the opportunity. It’s exactly what I want to be doing, and everything aligns so far.

    In other news, it appears that the BigBoss actually has an idea of how bad my office is, and my leaving may help spur things.

    Wish me luck!

  33. Lalaroo*

    I posted this question in last week’s open thread, but it was so late that I only got a few responses (which I’m very grateful for!), and I would just love to get some more opinions since this is a serious decision. I’ve also added some additional information in response to the comments from last week.
    Basically, I need advice on whether I should take any action after leaving my current position. I started job searching because my boss is bullying/abusive, and now I start my new position in a week. I have two things I can do, either separately or in combination, but I don’t know if I should do either:

    1. File a complaint with HR over workplace bullying, which is prohibited by law where I am. I honestly have no idea how that complaint would go. I feel like I have good evidence in email chains. Also, since we’re in a one-party state, I’ve been recording all in-person conversations for the last few weeks, so I have some of the demeaning and self-contradictory things she’s said on audio. There’s also the fact that she’s told me all my work is garbage, but refused to release me to my new position for an extra week so that I could finish up a MAJOR project (the flagship project of my division) on my own with no input from her. She’s also tried to keep me longer than that for no reasons she’s been able to articulate to me or my new supervisors. There are witnesses to her bullying and others that have been treated the same way, but the witnesses may not back me up since they still work there. I absolutely don’t blame them for doing what they feel they have to in order to survive in this awful environment, I’m just trying to be realistic. I do think some of them will be open/honest, however.

    2. Write a letter to the board that manages this place. My bully is the top person, but there is a board above that they report to. This place has very high turnover that is unusual and a focus of concern for the board. My bully has been telling them that the turnover is due to salaries being low, but this is not the case. I know firsthand that the bully’s poor management has led to the exit of three people, and the dysfunctional environment fostered by the bully has led to the departure of at least four more. Two others are seriously looking due to the bully’s behavior. We’re a small entity, only about 28 people, and turnover in my 18 months has been about 30%. The bully is also incompetent. This past week I found some pretty good evidence of that, and I have other evidence that makes a fair case, although honestly that evidence would not have been enough on its own. We’re a non-profit-type org, so it upsets me to think that the org is being so damaged by the bully. The board is volunteer and they all have regular jobs, so they’re not able to monitor the day-to-day in a way that would catch this.
    What should I do? 1? 2? Both? Neither? She will come back at me for sure, and I have had problems with tardiness which makes me a less-than-flawless messenger.

    1. Observer*

      I wouldn’t bother with HR – If your boss is the top person there, it’s going to be hard for them to deal with. But the board is something you should consider. Are you moving within the organization or to some place else? Do you need to worry about burning bridges? (Not with your boss, but with others in the org?)

      1. Lisa*

        I would recommend taking this to the Board – one of their major duties is oversight of of the top executives. Be completely factual and don’t use the term bully; back everything up with detail if possible (ie, the number of people leaving and causes of turnover).

      2. Lalaroo*

        Sorry, this is kind of important and I left it out! At the risk of doxxing myself, I’ll just go ahead and say that I work for a state agency. My boss is the head of this agency, but HR is a separate department entirely. I’m transferring to another state agency, which is why my boss was able to refuse to release me.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Write a letter to the board but give that letter to more than one board member. Make sure the president of the board receives a copy.

      In writing the letter, pretend you are a board member. Select the examples that you think would heavily concern a board member. These examples should show how this person is damaging the organization.

      Since workplace bullying is against the law in your area, review the law and talk about the various activities she has done which are outlined in the law. And yeah, enclose a copy of the law. Don’t count on the board to know what you are talking about off the top of their heads. They are probably aware of the law but have not read it.

  34. Snark*

    So I’ve been toying, fairly seriously, with the idea of writing a cookbook (or otherwise preparing some kind of coherent compendium of recipes) for a few weeks now, and…..damn, you guys, there’s serious barriers to entry to traditional book publishing. You need a LOT of money, time, and buy-in to make it happen, and I’m honestly feeling a little pessimistic that a full-time environmental scientist with a three year old, a spouse who works odd hours and weekends, and no existing audience/market can crack in.

    At this point, my feeling is that if I just want to jump into producing some kind of media around food, my realistic options is probably to start blogging again, but we’re kind of past Peak Food Blog. And I’d like to produce something more tangible. So I dunno. It’s not seeming like there’s a lot of options.

    1. Grits McGee*

      What would you want your end product to be if you were doing this purely for yourself- no audience, no need to make money, no one else to satisfy?

        1. Iris Eyes*

          If a beautiful hard copy is what you are after then I think you could go through a photobook service. All of the family recipes in one well presented piece would be a really neat thing even if no one else in the world wanted it it would make an amazing graduation/wedding gift for your kid(s). I’m fairly certain that there are recipe page templates out there for consistency.

          1. Snark*

            The thing is, I also want it to be used and useful to people. So obviously it’d be cool to have the photobook, but I also kind of want it to be splattered with sauce and paged through by actual cooks, too.

            Also, I want a pony.

            1. Rex*

              How about you self published (as described above), and then sent it to some of the more serious cooks you know as a gift? Maybe get their feedback?

            2. Alli525*

              You can pay extra to have it printed on glossy (aka easy to wipe off) paper! I agree with Iris Eyes that a photobook service is probably perfect if you don’t have the resources to hunt down a publisher and go through the years-long process. Self-publishing is great for things like this.

    2. ANON for this*

      In a previous life, I worked at a book publishing company that publishes a ton of cookbooks (note, I had nothing to do with editorial). I’ll be honest, unless you have some background in this area, it’s going to be hard to pitch. You’d need to do research to find a niche market that could sell well that doesn’t already have a ton of cookbooks out. I could put you in contact with one of the editors from my former company, but the company is so horrid that I a) do not want to help them in any way and b) wouldn’t want to subject you to their utter horridness. If it was something you were still interested in, though, I could pass you the editor’s email.

      1. Snark*

        This is also a thing I have heard – that the publishing world can be HELL of dysfunctional and frustrating to work on. And yeah, I’m a home cook with a defunct blog, a shelf full of cookbooks, and you guys are the closest thing these days to my audience, so I definitely don’t have a pitch besides “but dude, people love my dinner parties and also I post on the internet.”

        :|

        1. AnonAndOn*

          Have you considered restarting that blog and posting your recipes there? I ask because some people use blogging as the first step towards getting books published.

          1. Snark*

            I’ve thought about it, but the reason that blog is defunct is that dealing with regular posting when I’ve also got working, hiking, dadding, cooking, shopping, husbanding and sleeping to do is damned near impossible to sustain.

            1. TL -*

              Can you start writing drafts and just make a backlog of posts? Then, when you’re ready to commit to a regular posting schedule, you can get started and use the drafts to keep you on track.

              (for instance, if you write 20 drafts this year and next year thing you think could write one post every other week, that’s enough to get almost a year of weekly posts.)

        2. Laura*

          I asked a NYC-based ex-literary agent of mine years ago about the likelihood of friends who run a wildly successful local restaurant, in an area of the world that is hugely popular for its cuisine, being commissioned to write a cookbook. She asked if any of them were young and hugely attractive and/or had a major celebrity connection. So… no. It’s a very very tough market. People would rather buy a cookbook from Teresa from the Real Housewives of New Jersey – she’s sold tons.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      This is so strange that you posted this because I was going to try and find you in the weekend thread to ask what your favourite recipes were (based on some of your comments in the potluck thread yesterday).

      I don’t have any real advice but I agree that the market is crazy. You might be right about the blogging aspect but Instagram seems to be the new forum. You post pictures of complete food, attach the recipe, and try and generate views that way. I’m not sure how feasible that would be in your position.

      I wish you the best of luck though. I would 100% buy a Snark cooking book.

      1. Snark*

        I actually had no idea Instagram was used that way. Hm. Interesting. I will investigate this. I do have the fancy iPhone camera that can actually take good photos, now.

        I rarely post in the weekend thread because chores and playing with boy and hiking and cooking and errands and and and, but I’d love to start a cooking discussion this weekend! Though honestly, I generally have favorite techniques and building blocks, rather than specific favorite recipes per se. Soooo….my charred green poblano romesco sauce can go on a flatbread sandwich with smoked chicken and roasted cherry tomatoes (which I made last night!) or it can go on grilled mackerel tacos with pickled onions or it can be a dip for chips.

        1. pumpkin spice.*

          I thought I commented on a post similar to this last week but I went back and I think this might’ve been one of those comments I wrote out in detail then the site ate it and I didn’t bother re-typing it. Check out Half Baked Harvest on Instagram. She started a recipe blog when she was in her teens and she’s in her early 20s now with an absolutely UNBELIEVABLE Instagram (her Instagram feed and her Instastories are both awesome – beautiful photos, regular updates, really awesome content). It was following her on Insta that got me to pre-order her beautiful cookbook when it came out a few months ago. If you really do have something to offer in this area, focus on building up an Instagram following before you focus on your book. I personally think if you’re not a celebrity chef or don’t have some sort of marketable gimmick that a publishing company would jump at, then Instagram is the way in the door.

          2. zora*

            I”ll also shamelessly plug “Fork in the Road” on instagram (it’s fork.in.the.road ). She has used her instagram and blog to create enough interest that she just quit her day job. She is more of a writer full time, but still, it’s an example of using a food instagram account to build an audience.

    4. Leslie Knope*

      I’ve actually seen (and purchased) several self-published cookbooks. Most of them are people who curate their instagram around their food and recipes, and then use that following to promote their book. Most people I’ve seen partner with a photographer and designer and produce an ebook/pdf version. I love it since I get them for great deals and because I’ve tried the recipes of the person that they’ve posted on their instagram, I know that I will enjoy it!

      1. Snark*

        Okay, so here’s a question for you and others: I am not personally a massive fan of Kindle cookbooks, and I generally find their formatting kind of obnoxious, plus I like the tactile experience of a cookbook. But how receptive are you and others to an electronic format cookbook of some kind, whether that be a PDF or an app or a website?

        1. Emi.*

          I never ever ever use electronic recipes. I do print recipes off the web and put them in a binder/notebook/pile, but I hate cooking right off a screen. My husband does this sometimes, but I know he prefers real books.

          And since you’re taking feedback, I way prefer regular non-glossy paper for cookbooks, because it’s easier to make notes on and easier to read from strange angles. But the glossy color insert in the middle of my mother’s Good Housekeeping is the bomb.

          1. Snark*

            Interesting points, both. I tend to concur, though I generally read cookbooks for ideas and approaches and then wing it when I’m actually cooking. The gloss on a lot of pages, though, can be distracting when it’s reflecting light from a window right at you.

            1. Llama Wrangler*

              I have been thinking about this a lot lately — I sometimes use cookbooks, but I more often use recipes from the internet. I have a few bloggers I go to regularly, plus the NYTimes, and then I’ll sometimes search. I think there are two big reasons for that (1) I tend to do my meal planning on my lunch breaks or commute, so I do have internet at hand and I do not have my cookbooks and (2) like you both, I often use recipes for inspiration rather than cooking by the book (as it were), and am often looking for a thing to do with X and Y ingredient plus my pantry; with the exception of Mark Bittman, most of the cookbooks I have tend to be more complex and less conducive to what I need for inspiration. (I think bloggers are also more likely to note modifications than cookbook writers.)
              So, the answer to your question is, I often cook off of recipes from my phone, but generally when I’m just looking at general portions or oven temp or general procedure, not for a detailed step by step. I would absolutely not use a kindle book though.

              1. Snark*

                But you’d be open to using something like a website or an app, it sounds like, and it sounds like you’re looking for ideas and approaches more than straight recipes you follow religiously.

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I’ve been thinking about this too, because I love cookbooks and keep buying them, but when I cook, most often I use a recipe I printed off the internet. I am obsessed with Kenji Lopez-Alt from Serious Eats, and I bought his Food Lab cookbook as soon as it came out — and I still find myself printing his recipes off the internet instead. My cookbooks are serving some role for me that isn’t just a straight “I will cook from this book,” and I don’t know quite what it is.

                1. Snark*

                  Kenji and I got into a discussion about my spin on one of his recipes on Facebook a while back. I played it totally cool, but inside I was like SENPAI NOTICED ME

                  Seriously, he’s amazing. I use influences and ideas from all over, but when I need the authoritative technique or approach, he’s my dude. And he’s so rigorous in his approach you basically know it’s going to be gold.

                2. Ramona Flowers*

                  I’m the same!

                  Also, a friend of mine once wrote an article on how she loves reading cookbooks in bed.

                4. PB*

                  I recently learned that my cookbook collection is 113 books strong. I cook out of many of them, but not all. I may be a bit obsessed.

                  Snark, I’ll admit that I’m a bit green with envy over your conversation with Kenji Lopez-Alt! I’ve been following him since his Cook’s Illustrated days.

                5. Laura*

                  To the people reading cookbooks in bed, there’s a great PG Wodehouse character who’s on a diet so pays someone to read recipes with cream and cheese and crab in them at bedtime.

            2. DC*

              Happy to lend my layout/design experience to making a truly great Snark Kindle cookbook! PDF’s can always be printed out or used electronically.

              1. Snark*

                I’ma hold you to it. :D

                Funny you post this – I was just thinking that PDFs offer a lot of flexibility in formatting and can support hotlinks and photos.

            3. JustaTech*

              For me it’s mostly about keeping the device “awake” and not wanting to get my electronics wet. I really don’t want to have to poke at my iPad a whole bunch with sticky fingers to find out which way I’m supposed to fold the dough or what temperature to cook the syrup to or whatever.

          2. zora*

            Counter point: My sister has a bunch of great cookbooks and has completely stopped using them and pulls up recipes on her tablet now pretty much exclusively. I still use my cookbooks, but she is younger. I think this might start to be a generational thing, that younger people are going to be much more likely to use electronic recipes than physical books.

            1. Mephyle*

              I am 60 years old, have at least 100 cookbooks, and I do what your sister does. Either it’s not a generational thing or I’m an outlier.

              1. zora*

                well, one data point doesn’t entirely eliminate the possibility of a generational shift. But, sure, maybe it’s more of a cultural/technological shift.

            2. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

              Second counter point: Those who do not have the greatest eyesight are using tech more and more due to the better advances. One of them being the zoom on a tablet to read the recipe better. All of my cookbooks are electronic / get recipes from the internet so I can read what the heck I’m supposed to be doing. Cookbook text gets tiny sometimes.

        2. Leslie Knope*

          Here’s how I’ve seen some done before. You have two offerings, (1) an ebook, (2) a printed version. I am much more likely to buy an ebook at a reduced rate than a printed cookbook. I have so many books (seriously I’m addicted) so I’m always very hesitant to add more.

          I’ll often buy a digital version and then print off specific recipes that I use regularly and put them in a binder. I do this with recipes from blogs as well. I love digital versions for when I’m at the grocery store and forget to write down the ingredients beforehand.

          1. Leslie Knope*

            Also check out @KelseyNixon on Instagram. She’s got a fabulous instagram and I cook from her recipes all the time. She’s also got great instagram stories walking you through recipes and tips and tricks. She has a show on the Cooking Channel and Food Network so she’s obviously someone that resonates with a large group of people.

          2. Snark*

            I have a cookbook shelf near the kitchen. The deal is, my collection has to be confined to that shelf. If I want to add more, I have to get rid of some.

            I’m getting this hazy concept for a formatted, attractive, designed cookbook in PDF format and eventually in print, with links right from the electronic file to a fairly bare-bones text site that would support mobile and print versions and export to recipe managers.

        3. Overeducated*

          I used to be more into food blogs than cookbooks, but since the golden age of food blogging is over I rely on cookbooks because they are more reliable and higher quality than random websites. I would be fine with a website or electronic cookbook that was from a proven, trusted source for the same reason. (Not an app though – an app that doesn’t *do* anything special is not an app I would be interested in.)

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Honestly, you could self-publish and sell it here. You have enough people here who know and like your posts and have been intrigued by your food-related posts that you’d sell some. You’re not going to get rich off it or become a famous cookbook author from it, but if your main goal is to have a big glossy cookbook and a way to share it, even if just in modest ways, it’s worth considering. Self-publishing means that you’re almost certainly not going to have a ton of sales, but it doesn’t sound like that’s your goal. I say get really, really clear on what outcomes you want from it, and see if self-publishing would do it.

        1. Snark*

          Wow. Thanks for the vote of confidence! I’d of course appreciate you letting me flog whatever this turns into on your site, but I’m sensitive to the fact that this is your site and your audience, not mine – so I’d want to discuss more with you what this would look like and how to not step on your toes. But thank you for the offer!

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, it’s true that I wouldn’t want to open the floodgates to all kinds of stuff being hawked here. But I want your cookbook and you’re a long-time contributor of excellent posts that make me laugh (and your writing is a joy to read), and there’s got to be some benefit to being the blog owner and maybe it’s that I get this cookbook … Email me anytime if you want to discuss.

          2. Havarti*

            This is how self-publishing works. You promote someone. They promote you. You each benefit from each other’s audiences (or in your case it would start out being more one-sided but that’s ok too!). You can link your book or website in your username and that would be pretty discreet. Most of the authors whose books I’m reading these days are self-published and got on my radar because other authors promoted them. Good luck!

            1. DC*

              Yeah, I’d definitely suggest self-publishing. Amazon makes this really really easy nowadays, as do some other sights. I know some folks who have done so that I’d be happy to put you in touch with!

                1. Inspector Spacetime*

                  I’ve seen self-published books be hard-copy, as well. In fact, I own a couple that I bought from Amazon.

                3. Namast'ay in Bed*

                  They do both! You can set it up to sell as an ebook, with an on-demand hard copy option (they’ll print one if/when someone buys the physical version). I used to do this for my old company – it’s free to get it set up, they just take a portion of what you sell.

                4. JustaTech*

                  You could do a self-publish run from Amazon (or something similar), guage the response, and if it looks like there’s a bigger audience you could try Kickstarter or IndieGoGo or something like that to raise money for a bigger print run.

      2. Lore*

        Although doing a four-color, complex-layout book via self-publishing is a lot harder than a single-color thing. The vendors that can handle the complexity of a four-color print process are not necessarily the same ones that can handle print distribution, plus the fixed costs of printing plates/ink/paper are much higher for color. It’s not impossible but you need to invest a bit more time in both the research and the ultimate file prep in terms of properly embedding images and fonts and whatnot to print properly. I would look into IngramSpark and maybe LightningSource for vendors. (And also research who does self-publishing for children’s books–something I know a lot less about, but they’re going to be the closest analogue to what you want.)

        And I second/third the Instagram recommendation. Having a well-trafficked social media following could be the lever you need to get the attention of an agent and/or publisher. Cookbook agents and publishers do still follow food blogs (they may be the only ones who do?) but everyone wants “social influencers” these days. Anyway–I work in publishing and although I can’t buy a book I do work with the editors who do so happy to field questions. Off the cuff, I might recommend getting an Instagram going, using whatever promotion Alison is comfortable with to drive readers from here to there, then using that following in an agent pitch.

    6. Emi.*

      Is there any pipeline from submitting recipes to food magazines, or guest-posting on already established blogs?

      1. Snark*

        I’ve thought about building a following on something like Food52, but I’m a little skeptical about generating IP for someone else for free, so….dunno. I’d have to consider it.

    7. fposte*

      When you say “traditional” publishing, what do you mean? Do you just mean any kind of print? I’m confused because you say “money,” and you don’t pay to get published at old-school publishing houses. The bar to entry is going to be even higher there as a result, since they’re putting their own money on the line for your book so they want to be damn sure it’ll earn it. Self-publishing is where it’s all on you–the obstacles are your resources rather than their standards.

      However, I’m inclined to agree with Leslie Knope below about the way to go in self-publishing, and I’d also suggest that you take advantage of any hook or niche you can. Your local food shoppe may carry local cookbook authors if you make arrangements with them; if you can get a science hook you can get a dorky mention on science blogs or even rent a table at the exhibit halls at a conference.

      But think of cookbook buyers as hiring managers–they have a million applicants, so what about yours makes it the one they should buy? Find a way to answer that question to them *before* they buy it and cook with it.

      1. Snark*

        “I’m confused because you say “money,” and you don’t pay to get published at old-school publishing houses.”

        I mean like paying a print designer and a food photographer and a copy editor and maybe recipe testers and so on – there’s a lot of stuff specific to cookbooks that makes them expensive to get to delivery status, and that’s either part of an advance or you front it.

        Self-publishing does sound like the most realistic option, I think.

        1. fposte*

          Ah, okay, content creation costs to meet standards rather than publishing per se–I gotcha. Yeah, I think self-published is the way to go.

        3. Anion*

          In commercial publishing, you NEVER front ANY money. Your publisher pays for all of the things you mentioned.

          They pay YOU. Any other way is self-publishing or vanity publishing.

    8. Fiennes*

      If you want to do more than get a glossy copy for yourself and friends, then you’ll need to somehow build a platform–whether via blogging, Instagram and/or some other activity like doing YouTube cooking tutorials. Yes, we’re past Peak Food Blog, but that’s still a very active area (unlike some other types of blogs.) This would allow you to get a following and refine your “brand” (ughhhh, hate that word) to the point where you can interest publishers.

      In some genres, self-publishing is now a very valid way to go–but afaik cookbooks are not one of those genres. And as someone who has worked in/with publishing for upwards of a decade–yes, it can be super-dysfunctional! But this website has taught me that publishing has no monopoly on dysfunction. If you’re used to handling yourself in the professional world, you can handle publishing.

    9. Torrance*

      Have you thought about vlogging? If you can find your niche and/or shtick, you could try to build an audience on YouTube, translating that to print– like Rosanna + Nerdy Nummies or Hannah + My Drunk Kitchen/I Hart Food. I mean, it’s obviously not that simple, with scripting, editing, and all the other things involved but it’s another option.

    10. Plague of frogs*

      I really enjoy your posts, and would definitely buy a cookbook that included some of your commentary. Or read a blog, or whatever.

      1. Laura*

        Oh, and I very much enjoy your posts too! But people who want to write often make the mistake of thinking “I will write my one perfect book and it will get published”. The reality is that an agent/editor wants you to be able to put out a book every year (fiction) or maybe two years (cookbooks). And they will be looking to see if you have potential to keep going, as an unknown cookbook writer is very unlikely to have a breakout hit huge enough to make everyone $$$$.

  35. Not So Super-visor*

    So we are hitting the holiday season again and all of the questions about holiday office giving.
    For some background, this will be my 3rd holiday season as a supervisor for the company and the 5th holiday season with the company. For my dept, we have a supervisor (me) but no manager– this is how this department has always run. I have 30 direct reports, and this is the largest department in our location. Past supervisors (to my knowledge) did not present holiday gifts. I typically bring in an edible treat and last year I also set up a coffee/hot chocolate bar.
    Last year, however, a manager from the department that was next to ours and works with ours presented his direct reports with holiday gift cards to a local coffee chain and a small personalized gift. He only had 5 direct reports. When my group heard about this from his group, I was inundated with complaints about why I don’t give gifts. The long and short of it is — I can’t afford to give gifts like this with 30 people. His gifts came out of his own pocket and not from the company, and I make significantly less than him since i only have a supervisor title and not a manager title (one of the main reasons that they’ve never promoted someone to manager for this department).
    I’m racking my brain for a way to give more of an individualized gift without breaking my personal budget. I once worked for a much smaller company with no HR dept, and my manager would often give us scratch off lottery tickets on our birthday. It was kind of fun because maybe you would win big (I know the odds of that are astronomical, but hey, it was fun to think about). I’m just not sure if that would be seen as encouraging gambling.
    Thoughts? Other suggestions?

    1. Susanne*

      You simply can’t afford to give gifts to 30 people, and that’s that. If people can’t recognize and understand that, they are the jerks, not you. You’re already bringing in a treat / hot chocolate bar. That’s enough. These are not children and they are babies to expect their managers to give them presents.

    2. WellRed*

      This is probably not helpful but…people who complain about not getting gifts do not deserve gifts and I’d be afraid they will dislike whatever you give them compared to what the other department gets.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        This is 100% true. And also keep in mind that the majority of people in your department are probably totally appreciative of what you’ve done for them, and you’re just hearing from the more vocal minority (speaking as someone who regularly hears people complain about whatever nice thing we do for staff). Unfortunately, you usually only hear from are the complainers. :(

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly. They are not owed gifts – they are owed a decent salary, reasonable raises for good performance, a safe workplace, and the support necessary to do their jobs. These people have lost their minds whining about what the other smaller team got, especially when you set up a coffee and chocolate bar – that’s awesome! I wouldn’t get these ungrateful fools anything for the holiday.

    3. Aphrodite*

      Can you give them a day or half-day off as your department “gift”? I suspect not, and if that is the case then I agree with those above. Just do what you have done before and don’t worry about it.

    4. Lumen*

      Uh, sounds to me like you already are giving celebratory gifts to your reports: treats and the coffee/cocoa bar. That is a gift. That comes out of your own personal budget. Your reports may not know that the company doesn’t give you a budget for this sort of thing.

      That is actually what I think is most likely: the only way I would ever get seriously upset enough to complain about not getting a holiday gift from my supervisor is if I believed that the company supplies a budget for this and that it should be considered part of my compensation. Even then… I think that would be a weird situation.

      It could be that they’re just acting like children, in which case, they will get over it. I don’t think you need to bend over backwards to live up to the precedent set by a manager with 1/6th the team you have.

    5. Irene Adler*

      You could take $ you plan to spend on the group gift and buy one very nice gift. Then raffle this one gift off to your 30 reports. Might end up with 29 complainers. In which case, return to the coffee/hot chocolate bar + edible treat of the prior year.

    6. Artemesia*

      Don’t be bullied on this. Continue to bring a nice office treat and hope that most of your reports are not childish jerks. If one is, you say ‘I can’t afford to buy individual gifts for 30 people; I wish I could as you do all great work.’

    7. K, Esq.*

      If you want something individualized and have the time, write each of your team members a short note telling them why you value them as your employee.

  36. paul*

    I coudln’t get out of this office pot luck; maybe I can escape the next one or the one after that.

    6 weeks, 3 pot lucks. I’m typically pretty OK with pot lucks, but one for Thanksgiving, one for Christmas and one for New years all close to each other just…no, no, no.

    1. Lumen*

      Uggggh. I’m so glad my office only has 1 potluck, and it’s for Thanksgiving. And because it’s just 1? Lots of people participate and look forward to it and have a great time.

    2. Not So Super-visor*

      We also have just one potluck for the year, and it falls on the Friday before Christmas. With almost all of the 300 people participating, it is known simply as “Food Day.”

    3. Anon Accountant*

      Yeah that’s too much especially if you’re hosting any holidays at your house plus many other things happening during thanksgiving to New Years.

      I’m not fun because I’d rather toss in a few dollars and get a sandwich tray, salad, etc than have a potluck.

      1. paul*

        I’m doing fruit trays for all of ’em. Usually I actually make something and really enjoy ’em but that’s just…3 pot lucks in 1.5 months? Hell naw.

        Today’s was good though, but I ate too much of this fancy asparagus dish–asparagus, brie, some cranberries…dunno who made it but Im tempted to try to find out and get the reciepe.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Fruit trays are excellent! And they dodge all of the food allergies and intolerances I can think of.

          1. paul*

            I actually can’t eat most of them; really allergic to melons and they almost all have honey dew on them.

            But they’re cheap, they’re easy, and they usually get eaten so win/win

  37. husband w/ depression*

    My husband went on leave from one job because of what you’re describing. very similar. eventually he was let go because he exceeded the allotted time without coming back. he got a second job in a similar field and the same thing started happening again. he went on leave and then quit on good terms. he went to work in his dad’s restaurant and now he’s trying to get another office job. there are a few things i wish he did differently. he didn’t really ask for accommodations in a serious way, and he didn’t try to look for other jobs because he was in the midst of the crisis. he also didn’t use his time off to really help himself, again because depression brain doesn’t let you get the energy to do it. if i were you, i would go on FMLA, and see your therapist more often if you can afford it and they have availability. having daytime hours free helps a lot. i would dedicate time every day to meditation or other tools your therapist recommends. i’d go to support groups. at the end of all this self-care i’d come away with a list of changes you’d need to make at work and go back to work and try to get those changes. not only accommodations you want from the org, but how you push back against peers wanting you to be the office mule. while going back to work, i’d restructure your budget to save as much money as possible in case you do have to quit. if it doesn’t work then i would try to job search while you’re still there, for lower-stress jobs. and then leave.

  38. Posting anonymously because I feel weird*

    I’m a regular poster going anon.
    How do I get over this niggling feeling that ppl think I don’t deserve my promotion? I got promoted a few months back and i was recently started on a new task of which I’ll be responsible for the next few months (which is a pretty big deal). My direct supervisor wanted this for me but had to talk a few ppl in to being on board w this.

    I’m always scared I don’t know as much as others, and that someone is “wtf how is she a senior” at me. It doesn’t help that another coworker is openly unhappy that I’m doing this but they’re on a different team under a different supervisor so that’s not under mine nor my supervisors control. I’m paranoid someone is going to one day say “did she ___ to get a promotion?” Obviously I didn’t do that eww but that’s my fear that someone will say that.

    1. Lumen*

      I am alongside a similar situation at my office. During a restructuring they established supervisors over 3 different groups. They offered the supervisor position of my group to an employee who had been here close to a decade and was the de facto senior, but they turned it down. The other employees in the group weren’t experienced enough (or suited) to the supervisory position, so they hired outside.

      Unfortunately, this supervisor has been questioned, undermined, and treated as undeserving since getting here… including by the person who could have had the job if they wanted it! And I, as the supervisor’s first hire, got the same resentment from the day I arrived. Bizarrely, the second hire this supervisor made has been warmly embraced. It’s childish and absurd behavior, really middle-school-level nonsense.

      The way I handle it is by refusing to care. My supervisor thinks I’m doing a good job, and they are doing a good job. Our manager thinks we’re doing a good job. The head of our department thinks we’re doing a good job. You weren’t promoted because someone felt bad for you. You weren’t given these responsibilities because, poor thing, they just wanted to give you a chance.

      Let them think you don’t deserve it. You know better. Your higher-ups know better. Let the resentful and insecure people make their snide remarks to each other, which they are doing BECAUSE they know they can’t do anything about it other than try and undermine you. I know it sucks, but you do not need to worry about the nasty things people might say about you while you are out there hustling and getting yours.

      1. Posting anonymously because I feel weird*

        Thanks. To be fair, aside from that 1 person, everyone else who knows has been nice about it, no snide remarks to my face any way. I’m not too broken up about that person being upset about it. I guess it’s just my own insecurity.

    3. Spike*

      Similar situation here… they actually told me they had to “fight” to get me promoted. So clearly there were some people who didn’t agree with it… but I don’t know who.

      I’ve been dealing with it by continuing to be as awesome as possible and pretending I know nothing about it. I think it’s working?

    4. Not So Super-visor*

      The imposter syndrome is totally normal. Hang in there and hold your ground. People are going to push your boundries — especially if they sense that you’re weak/second guessing your status. Your manager(s) saw something in your performance that gave them the confidence that you could handle this.
      Personally, I had to deal with (and still deal) with this behavior regularly when I took over as supervisor of my department. In my situation, no one wanted the position — literally, no other person from the department applied for it. (It’s well known that it doesn’t pay much more than my direct reports make, and it’s well known that you lose a valuable benefit once you go from hourly to salary.) The company thought about hiring from outside but didn’t want to train an outsider on the company systems. Regardless of the fact that none of my coworkers applied, a lot of them expressed upset feelings when I was promoted. I got a lot of pushback when making new policies or having to discuss performance, but I’ve stuck with it. It gets better, and you get stronger.

    5. Wheezy Weasel*

      “I’m always scared that I don’t know as much as others”.

      I had this thinking when I first joined the workforce because the leadership in my field was almost always made up of individual contributors who had been promoted to positions of supervision because they ‘knew how to do XZY tasks’ and could thus supervise others doing that tasks and pitch in when needed. That really colored my judgement as an employee in a bad way for my first few jobs because I mistakenly thought that this was the only definition of leadership was to be able to do all of the jobs of the staff you manage.

      5+ years later, I came across the concept of a something I think is called a Leadership Pyramid or similar structure. If you imagine a pyramid with the base being the most applicable skills and the top being the least applicable, a leader’s pyramid is revered: they have may very little knowledge about how to do daily tasks but instead their base is made up of tasks and strategies of how they can improve the department or organization.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just cave and admit to yourself that you don’t know as much as others AND others do not know as much as you! It’s a two way street there.

      Several things you can do:
      Admit to yourself that you don’t know what it is you don’t know, but vow to work hard and be sincere at all times. You make a mistake, take responsibility for it and learn from it. In a private moment analyze what went wrong and how you can prevent that particular mistake from happening again. It’s amazing how committing to learning from your mistakes can take power away from that impostor syndrome stuff.

      Give credit where credit is due. Ask for help when necessary and be sure to thank people for their help.

      Next. Decide what you will do if this dreaded remark happens.
      Of course if the remark includes a sexual reference you can report it to HR/your boss. And you should.
      Let’s say it does not include a sexual reference. You can tell them maybe they should check with your boss if they are that concerned.
      The scenario I find the hardest is if a person I actually like/respect says something like that. In this case you could say “Ouch! I’d like us to get a cuppa coffee and talk about this.” OR “Can you be more specific? Can you tell me what about my work has you concerned?”

      Sometimes the quickest way to defuse a situation is to go right into the thick of it.

      I had a boss, let’s call her Miss Management. She said to me one day, “Your subordinate does not like you. She is in my office every day complaining about you. She hates your guts.”

      I said, “I am very sorry to hear that. Not only do I have a high regard for Subordinate professionally, I also think she is a tremendous person.” [I actually thought this way of Subordinate.]
      I told Miss Management that I felt we should sit down right away and talk this out.

      And the back pedaling started. I kept insisting we go over right now and resolve this. More back pedaling.
      I started to walk over to Subordinate and Miss Management grabbed my arm. Now we have a physical intervention here. I stopped.
      “I thought this was a big problem.”
      “Well it… she said something a while ago.”
      yeah. right. I’d bet my last donut that she never said anything.

      Go into their issue with them. Be sincere and focus on finding a good resolution.

  39. Hermione*

    I started my job 4 months and I am beginning to wonder if it isn’t the right fit for me. Some people only say “good morning” if I say it to them, but then they will talk to other people and greet them. Other people completely ignore me, even if I’m in the room. I’m more introverted/quiet which doesn’t help, but they also make fun of those who are quiet, so that doesn’t help. Most of them hang out at work- they eat lunch together, work together- for my area it’s just me and one other person and I don’t think that she likes me that much.
    We make small talk, but she always goes off with her friends and I’m left by myself. I just don’t see myself making any friends here or having anyone to talk to. I’m trying to make the extra effort- I say good morning and good night regardless if they say. I brought in donuts, etc. Sometimes there is conversation, but overall it just feels really lonely and I don’t like it.

    Is it too soon to tell? I feel like i’m overreacting, but I don’t know.

    1. Hello Venus*

      Maybe reading the book The Fine Art of Small Talk by Debra Fine can help you out. It might be able to help you connect better with your co-workers. :)

      1. DDJ*

        Just checked out the e-book on this one to start reading, thanks for the tip! I am awful with small talk. One of my coworkers is an absolute genius when it comes to small talk and I’ve really been thinking I need to step up my game.

    2. Lumen*

      Depends a little bit on the office. If it’s generally warm and social and they started out by inviting you but have tapered off, I would feel wary of it. But some offices just take time to warm up. It can be the size of the office, the turnover rate, the peculiarities of the business, or any number of things. I think at 4 months not feeling like you’re clicking is particularly rough, but I was at my current job more like 6 months before I started feeling more welcome. Even now there are times when people have conversations or hang out together and don’t include me at all, but I try not to put all my social eggs in the work basket. I have other places to make real friends.

      I do get the loneliness though. And I don’t think you’re overreacting by feeling lonely and wanting things to be different. But you can do a good job and get something out of your work even if you don’t make friends there. Make friends elsewhere. You sound very sweet, and I doubt the problem is you being unlikeable. It’s a bummer, but it’s also okay to not have strong social bonds with the people you work with.

    3. MissDissplaced*

      I think it’s too soon to tell, and if you otherwise like the job give it more time + little more effort. Try identifying 1-2 of the more “social butterflies” of the existing group and then just “join” with them at lunch, etc.
      Also, volunteer for things! Usually there’s a ton of that stuff this time of year (United Way, volunteering, holiday party). It will help you meet people.

  40. Sam Vega*

    I will soon tell my employer that I’m going back to school next semester. I am good at my job, but I don’t enjoy it. I have mostly been successful at keeping my complete lack of interest to myself.

    There is a good chance they will let me stay on part-time, at least for a while, which would be very good for me because there’s really nothing else I could be doing that would let me earn as much money before finishing my degree. It would also help them out, as my department is already stretched too thin and having to replace me (or any of us) at this point would only make matters worse for the foreseeable future.

    However, by telling them I’m going back to school to study something completely unrelated to my current job, I’m essentially saying that I don’t see myself in my current role (or field) long-term. How do I make the case for continuing to do this work when it’s clear that I’d rather do something else?

    I don’t want to cause any offense or burn any bridges in case the dream dies a final death and I do have to resign myself to pointless office drudgery for the rest of my working life. Unfortunately, I do work in a sector where everyone is expected to at least pretend that there’s nothing more important to us than the work we do, which is at least part of the reason I can’t do this forever.

    1. WellRed*

      I understand what you are saying, but really, going back to school for something else is a thing that happens. It doesn’t have to scream “I hate my job/this field.” You are looking ahead to your future. A future that doesn’t include them, sure, but you gotta put yourself first.

    2. Artemesia*

      You don’t have to discuss your degree at length. It can be ‘I am going to finish up my degree’ or if it is a new one ‘I will be going back to school.’ No need to go into great depth about what you are studying. And when you say that, you say ‘I love working here and am hoping it will be possible to continue part time while I am in school; do you think that would be possible?’ Good luck

      1. Rainy*

        I agree–I think this is the way to go.

        Good luck! I went back to school to finish my BA a million years ago and ended up with a couple of degrees and a new career (pure happenstance–not what my degrees are in, either!) and it was just the best decision. I hope yours is equally rewarding and beneficial!

  41. aett*

    My wife’s boss is incredibly immature. I mean, downright childish for a man in his 40s. He likes to play music over his speakers and sing along to it with his office door open. Sometimes he watches videos and insists that people come over to see them. He owns a Segway and loves to bring it into the office and ride around on it, bothering everyone else. He’s basically Michael Scott from The Office, down to the ignorance and casual racism and sexism.

    One of the problems is that he’s not even the highest-ranked person in the office – there are two people above him and they are WELL aware of his behavior and don’t even appear to like it, but they seem to put up with it anyway. Another wrinkle is that is a civilian working in a law enforcement office and her bosses are all plainclothes desk job officers… in the past, she’s found that the officers tend to stick together and watch their own.

    Ideally, she could just find another job. However, we currently only have one car and we carpool so it’s very convenient that our offices are relatively close together. She was also recently promoted after putting in a lot of hard work, and she is determined to find a way to improve her situation rather than abandon it.

    2. Amelia*

      Noise cancelling headphones for christmas??

      Play workplace bingo? Make yourself a mental list or a physical list you don’t keep on you (unless you can keep it secure), Boss sings loudly, Boss is sexist, Boss is racist, Boss rides Segway, etc, and give yourself a point each time it happens. Actually if you work together, both you and your wife make bingo cards in the car, compare notes on way home, loser cooks dinner! (or washes up). If neither gets bingo – yay work wasn’t as terrible today as it could be!. The basic idea is to create a situation that changes how you respond. Instead of getting mad at Boss and situation, it makes you more calm (Grrrrr boss vs oh! that’s another bingo box!). It’s not a long term solution but it can keep you from losing it at work.

      1. Amelia*

        Replying to myself to add, the solo version of this is if you get a set number >5 >10 etc, or actual bingo if making boards, is treat yourself to something small (get ice cream on the way home, add $5 to your travel fund etc).

  42. Fabulous*

    I don’t know what it is, but I can’t talk about myself or my accomplishments. Always been an issue. Probably is one of the main reasons I haven’t progressed as far as I could in my career too… I can’t even think of how better I could do it other than write a monologue about myself and memorize it, which sounds stupid and tedious! Does anyone else do that? How do you talk about yourself, remember all the details, and highlight things in a way that makes you sound impressive?!?

    It’s just so frustrating not being able to talk about myself… I’ve never been able to do it, even on the “What I did on My Summer Vacation” papers back in school! It’s just a huge blow in my confidence every time… So now I’m off to another great start of the day too because of this issue:

    My manager recently got a new boss, and he came into our office today to introduce himself to me and my coworker Jasper also on my team (we’re the only local ones, everyone else on our 6-person team is in another office or remote). First, the new boss basically gave us the whole rundown of his history since high school, naming off his accomplishments one after the other, going into detail where appropriate, telling us tidbits about his interests and hobbies – the works. It sounded rehearsed, but very well put together and still informal. Jasper was able to talk about himself and his family for a decent amount of time too, listing some great accomplishments and hitting every milestone in his life and career. I feel like I sounded so inexperienced when it was my turn, even though I have 10-years of progressive experience! I left out tons of things I could have highlighted (that of course I am only now remembering) and I rushed through all my descriptions. I even forgot to talk about half the things I do and have done; my manager had to bring them up!

    I don’t know that a class would be helpful – or if a class for this even exists – but I’ve realized in the last day or so that this is probably my biggest weakness. I guess this realization gives me something different to talk about in interviews!

    1. Overeducated*

      I have only learned this after a decade of watching other people who are good at talking about their accomplishments and don’t minimize them as I instinctively do. I actually sometimes ask myself, “How would I describe myself and my work if I were Lucinda from grad school or Fergus from work?” and then try to follow their examples.

    2. Irene Adler*

      Oftentimes folks who can rattle off their accomplishments as you describe have taken the time to keep a list of them. Bonus: such a list helps with resume writing. And they review / update it regularly.

    3. Fictional Butt*

      It sounds like you weren’t really prepared to talk about yourself in that situation, so if it’s something you’d like to do offhand, it might help to actually create a written outline of what you’d like to highlight and then kind of rehearse that.

      Also, I always find it helpful to pretend I’m presenting work that someone else did. So in this case, maybe I’d pretend to be a student doing a presentation on the career of legendary architect Fictional Butt. This helps me feel less self-conscious, and it also helps me figure out what is important information to share with my audience (as opposed to what is important to me personally).

      1. Fabulous*

        I agree I could have done a bit more preparation – I knew the meeting was happening in advance – but who thinks ahead of time that they’ll have trouble talking about themselves?! Although I’ve known I’ve always had difficulty talking about myself, I really only recognized it was that bad of an issue today. I did a mock interview once with a recruiter and she pointed out to me a couple years ago that I don’t sell myself well; I don’t know why it didn’t click that this is all related back then!

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Dear goodness, who wants to listen to someone’s entire life story like that anyway?

      Maybe it’s just because I’m British but I don’t get why anyone would subject you to this in the first place!

      1. Fabulous*

        Ha! That’s kind of what I was thinking in the moment! Like, did he seriously create a narrative of his whole life? Because it sounds like he memorized a narrative of his entire life. I didn’t have a clock with me or I would have timed his speech because it was getting a bit ridiculous.

    5. Her Grace*

      If you are looking for a class on getting your thoughts together and sharing them aloud, consider your local chapter of Toastmasters.

  43. bassclefchick*

    Just wanted to check in with everyone since I’ve been so busy I haven’t been able to post.

    The new job us GREAT! Passed my first two reviews with flying colors! Boss is happy with my work and thinks I’m a valuable member of the team. I shouldn’t have a problem passing probation. Only two more months until my last probationary review. This is a great fit for me.

    I’m much happier than I was at this time last year, when I knew I was going to be fired at any moment. Thanks for the supplier, everyone!

  44. Cersei*

    I’m at a new job and my co-workers told me that another co-worker of ours, “Fergus”, threw them under the bus a couple times at work, yet they still talk and socialize with him. If it were me, I would be professional but I would avoid him, but that’s me. They make it seem like they like him, but maybe they’re just being polite and friendly? This happened at another job and it still puzzles me. Why do they act friendly?

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’ve found that there are quite a number of people who would much rather pretend everything’s just fine than let someone know that they are upset with them. TBH, in a setting, where you have to work with that person regardless of how you feel about them, they may not feel like it’s worth it. However they’ve given you a valuable bit of information about Fergus, so keep that in the back of your mind when you interact with him.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure what you mean by socialize, like in the off hours?

      If it’s just a limited interaction then it could be that they declared a truce because of their shared needs to have a roof over their heads and food on their tables.

      If it’s hanging out after work and heavy involvement in each other’s lives then it’s probably a dysfunctional work place with dysfunctional relationships. I worked in one of those environments and I left.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I guess I’d be interested to know what they mean by “threw them under the bus?” If they did something wrong and he refused to either cover for it, or accept full/partial responsibility when he wasn’t at fault, then they have no reason to shun him and they probably know that. If instead HE messed up, but either set them up or let them take the blame, then I’m with you — I wouldn’t want to socialize beyond perfunctory politeness.

    6. kas*

      I would be professional and avoid him as well. I couldn’t be super friendly with someone who throws me under the bus.

  45. Fake old Converse shoes*

    Still trying to build a case to ask for a significant raise (because I’m currently grossly underpaid). What’s the best way to phrase politely that “you’re lucky I haven’t run away or being headhunted yet”? Considering the childish people I have to deal with in this office and the whimsical higher ups in charge from the client’s side.

    1. Spike*

      Don’t point that out directly… find metrics that prove you are underpaid and they’ll work out the flight risk part. I did this using and industry wide survey that’s well known and it worked. Implicit is the way to go here.

    2. Artemesia*

      If you are this great, maybe you can leave and do better. It isn’t luck for them, it is your own choice. If you could’n’t move and do better for whatever reason then there you are. I would focus on the achievements and the impact you are having at your workplace, and perhaps bolster it with current pay data in the field — but most of all you are making the case that you are doing valuable work first and foremost and secondly that this work normally commands X% more. You want to bring your pay more in line with its value. THIS is telling them that if they don’t pay you, they may lose you. And at the same time you are doing this, you need to be scanning the environment for other opportunities and have your resume ready. Never even hint that you might leave until you are ready to give notice. Once you hint or say that, they mentally begin to plan how to get along without you and their desire to pay or promote you goes down, not up.

    3. LawBee*

      I wouldn’t phrase it ANY way. The goal of asking for a raise is to show your value to the company through what you’ve already done, and getting a reevaluation of your compensation. Even a gentle “hey, I could make a LOT more money elsewhere” hint could be enough for them to wish you the best in your future employment.

      Go in with your successes, your growth over your time of employment, and your actual value-added. If you’re grossly underpaid, then they probably don’t know what you do, so this is the time to show off. Have your minimum increase in mind, ask for more than that, and back it up.

  46. Foreign Octopus*

    I’m glad the thread’s up!

    In the last 90 minutes I’ve just had a frustrating exchange with a student. I teach via an online learning platform and the onus is on both the student and the teacher to be ready for the lesson at least five minutes before. At the scheduled time, I called the student. No answer. I tried again another three times over a period of 10 minutes, and I sent her a message via the main website. 5 minutes before the lesson is due to end, and after I’d given the lesson up and collapsed back on the sofa with my cat, I get a message from the student asking me to call her on a FaceTime number (I only teach via Skype as my FT is personal, something that is clearly advertised on my page). I told her I couldn’t and she said that as there was two minutes left of the lesson, I could at least check the connection (I am paraphrasing this into better English as it isn’t her main language).

    I feel very frustrated with this student (she’s new) that a – she couldn’t be bothered to prepare herself properly for the lesson despite there being a mountain of information on how to do so; b – she wasted my time, and c – she assumed that I’d be willing to test the connection with only 2 minutes left.

    (I might have been willing had it been Skype but I know for a fact that it would take me longer than 2 minutes to get my FT set up as it’s on a different device).

    I’ve told her that I consider the lesson as complete on my end and I will be taking the money for it because I was there and ready and the time had been blocked off in my schedule but I’m just really annoyed by her attitude. I’m normally okay if people are late to lessons, or they miss one here and there, I understand that life happens, but I’m annoyed by the fact that she told me to call her because “there are 2 minutes left”.

    Rant over. Heavy sigh.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Validating your frustration. You are definitely in the right. I hope that the rest of your day goes better!

    2. Rex*

      Do you have an employer or are you an independent contractor? Either way, is there a policy about what happens when the student misses or is extremely late? If not, you should have one.

    3. Artemesia*

      Send instructions for the next lesson and remind her to be ready on time by preparing to get Skype up 5 minutes early. Shouldn’t have to but need to. And indicate that the time is reserved for her and once the time is passed her lesson is complete.

      1. Fictional Butt*

        If you have the freedom to, you might even want to create a rule that you will not start a lesson more than X minutes after the scheduled start time.

    4. Jennifer*

      Hah. I have some similar crap happening at my work. If you want me to do Y, then you need to do X first and not flake out about it!

  47. Katie the Fed*

    In the last couple of months, I’ve reviewed about 500 resumes for potential new hires. HR farms them out to various offices and we skim through to help HR find good people. These are resumes input into an online system so there are specific areas to fill out. This was kind of a side gig for me, but lemme tell you all some things I learned:

    – Bullets are far, far better than paragraphs. I have only a very short amount of time and I’m skimming – large blocks of text are VERY hard to skim and I could miss things. Since these are people pretty new in their careers, I don’t need to see more than 3-5 bullets for each job either.
    – Don’t bullshit. Your job responsibilities should match your position. If your position was “intern” then I’m going to raise serious eyebrows if you say you managed people. You’re either lying or your employer was unbelievably incompetent.
    – If you’re going to use jargon, it should match the industry you’re applying to. I’m in government – we eat, breathe and drink jargon. But I don’t know YOUR jargon – say it in plain english.
    – If you have two or more former employers who you’ve said “no” on the question of “may we contact this employer?” I think you have something to hide.
    – If you have two or more typos, I’m probably moving on. There are thousands of applicants – why am I going to take a chance on someone who is sloppy?
    – Finally – follow the freaking directions. This is government. I have a pretty strict rubric of things I’m looking for – if you decide to be creative or not follow the instructions, you’re just weeding yourself out.

    I’m off this afternoon so if anyone has any broad/generic questions I’ll do my best to answer.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Oh I forgot to add one thing – you should absolutely include if you have an interesting side job or skill. Like I had one application from a woman who had a weekend job making/selling artisan pickles at a farmers market. She was able to translate those skills well into plain english, and it just made her seem interesting. Or someone with Basque language skills. Don’t spend a ton of space on it but it’s fun to include and makes you seem like someone I might like to talk to.

      1. NotAlwaysOut*

        Sigh, I have a lot of “interesting” side work and hobbies, running boards of small groups, organizing weekend long events, presenting at national large events- but they are all “alternative” things and would not be considered appropriate for the stuffy industry I am in. Even if they are exactly the best skills being used.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      Yes, yes, all of this yes! The six page resume for someone out of school for a year. The paragraphs of text. The paragraphs of text in third person, even! (One guy’s resume read like a bio you would have on your marketing page. Mr. Smith managed the Llamas, Inc., project with a 10% cost savings and 147% employee satisfaction. etc. etc.) And the questions that are answered by copy-and-paste from the resume.

    4. AnonYmusNow*

      Definitely helpful. As someone who occasionally applies to federal jobs, I’ve always wondered about the Knowledge questions. I usually end up with only a few sentences for each (admittedly I tend to do these at night and get annoyed by them at that point, so I know I can do better), but are they typically looking for more in-depth answers or just skimming, like mentioning the job and job responsibilities that cover that question, or in-depth examples that cover the questions (job responsibility it covers)? Also if you’ve never done something or only had educational training, (so answering like D or E?) does that tend to be an immediate disqualification or can you make up for it with other experience that’s valuable?
      I guess I’ve always wondered how the federal process works, I’ve always assumed, maybe a rating type system involving totaling the Knowledge questions.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I haven’t seen KSA (knowledge, skills and abilities) questions in YEARS! Even when I was looking at postings on USAJobs it looked liked they’d moved away from KSAs and you just self-certified your level of expertise on the mandatory and highly-desired assessment factors with a pull-down menu, but you don’t offer any narrative support. There may still be places that do that though. I don’t think you’re going to be immediately disqualified for answering anything honestly, but a lot of people will self-certify themselves as experts, so I’d lean toward being generous with yourself.

    5. Sal*

      Fed resumes usually ask for paragraphs as opposed to bullets though, don’t they? Or has this changed? (I’m a contractor again now but years ago I was insourced to civil service and had to “apply” for my own position. I was instructed to make my 1-pg resume about 3 pages long and write paragraphs!!! Absolutely hated fed resumes)

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Depends completely on the system being used. I don’t know that there is a single standard form. I’m also not civil service though.

    6. Sal*

      The jargon thing is always hard for me too. It’s hard to describe what I do (especially in a 1-2 line bullet) that doesn’t involve 10 acronyms-within-acronyms. But I know it’s important.

    7. EmilyAnn*

      Thanks for this. I’m a Fed applying all the time. I’ve had the paragraphs recommended before so maybe I’ll try to switch to bullets. The jobs I apply for aren’t entry-level though.

      2. Lefty*

        Just came to second the bullets that Katie the Fed suggested- this was a suggestion given to me during a previous round of interviews last year by one of the CSAs assisting. I know it’s not the *only* thing that got me into the interview last month, but I have the new job now. These interviewers commented on the bullets in my resume as being useful- one even had a copy and had numbered my bullets.

    8. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      From my own pet peeve today:

      If you’re applying for a job, check your email! Check the email that you gave to the employer!
      I had a candidate tell me today “Sorry for my late response, I don’t check this email account very often.”
      Well, buddy, it’s the one you gave me so I don’t know what you expected me to do.

    9. JustaTech*

      ” If you have two or more former employers who you’ve said “no” on the question of “may we contact this employer?” I think you have something to hide.”

      Well, you can try to contact VeryOldJob, but they went out of business, so you actually can’t. Or is that one where the applicant should say “yes” knowing that it’s not possible? (Genuinely curious.)

  48. NewBoss2016*

    Just coming here to vent a little. My assistant is absolutely brilliant and puts out really high quality work. I have always trusted her to work independently. I sign off on all her work, and she has always been really on top of everything and rarely makes mistakes. Then I went on vacation for a week last month and it is like she had a full factory reset while I was gone. She can’t remember how to do anything. It is like the year and a half she did the job has vanished into the abyss and I am having to re-train her on our software and standard operating procedures. Even little things–like I asked her to update a printed schedule that we do a specific way every day, and she manually changed it to have the activities/times in a weird order like 2pm, 10am, 6pm, 8am, 5pm. It is just really weird, and I am worried about her. We are having another meeting today, because all of the training we have done this last month seems to have reset again.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        She did go thought some personal issues several months ago. I am trying to be very understanding and kind, yet firm. It is hard not to get frustrated, because the nature of our business is very serious and small mistakes tend to have a ripple effect that can cost lots of money and or legal issues. So far in the last 6 weeks or so, she has made several thousand dollars worth of small mistakes. I am now having to fine-tooth comb every project for liabilities, which is causing a lot of extra work. Right now I am just racking my brain on what else I should do. I keep suggesting she take time off since she has a lot of available time that goes away next month. Maybe that will help her refresh? My boss is no help other than saying I need to fix the problem ASAP. I’ve dealt with people who have had lower productivity due to personal issues, which is understandable, but have never had someone forget everything like this.

        1. La Revancha*

          Ah yea that’s hard. I’m always a big fan of leaving your personal problems at home but I do understand that if they are severe enough it could seriously impact your work. 6 weeks worth of mess ups isn’t a small thing!

          I do agree that time off could help as well.

        2. Natalie*

          Have you had a big picture conversation with her about the sudden uptick in errors? Sometimes we assume people are connecting the dots, but they don’t.

          1. NewBoss2016*

            Hi Natalie–yes definitely, we have had a big picture/what is going on conversation several times. Her reasoning is that she was nervous about making mistakes while I was gone (for context-the CEO was signing off on all contracts in my absence that week and she really wanted to impress her), and that gave her anxiety which caused mistakes, which has snowballed into more anxiety about making mistakes causing even more errors, etc. She is in constant panic mode now, which is upsetting, because we are trying to work through the issues and she is deferring to self-deprecation instead of taking in feedback. She loudly asked me yesterday if it is possible to die from stress (right after I kindly asked her to fix a mistake), and audibly sighs/makes hyperventilation noises (she admittedly is doing this for effect, not having a medical issues breathing). I can’t pinpoint what is causing the stress/anxiety at work. I have gone over her workload with her, removed tasks, identified priorities and exact strategies for getting the tasks done. We are so slow compared to usual, so her workload is very manageable. She has always been very professional and sensible prior to this.

            1. Inspector Spacetime*

              Ah. Sounds like a Death Spiral. This happens to me occasionally. I make a few tiny mistakes and it just snowballs into a situation where I am so nervous about making mistakes that I keep making mistakes, and I’m paralyzed with indecision and anxiety. The way I got through it was just trudging through until the amount of good things I was doing at work added up and my confidence came back. I definitely would have benefited from seeing a therapist, though.

              1. NewBoss2016*

                Ahh, well this does sound like a similar spiral. I like what you said about the good things adding up. I have been making an effort to point out the positives in her work, kind of hoping for the same effect. Not that I don’t do that anyways, but I’m putting some extra effort there. I suffer from anxiety and am working on myself as well, but I compartmentalize and keep that very close to my chest in the office. I am not saying that is good or works for everyone, but her coming into my office in a full visual panic every 30 minutes is hard for me to handle. It has a contagious effect if I don’t shut it down really quick.

        3. Artemesia*

          This is so dramatic that you need to have a very blunt conversation. It might include concern that she may have a medical issue since she seems to have forgotten routines she was competent with. Use the ‘reset’ language. This is very unusual in someone who has not had a head injury, stroke, dementia or serious trauma of some sort. Lay out what needs to happen to get back on stride.

          If it is a personal trauma she needs to have a plan to deal, maybe she needs a little time off for therapy or whatever. But it is something that needs to be addressed head on.

          1. Artemesia*

            Sorry I missed that you have had this talk. Sounds like she needs serious therapy and perhaps medication and the best you can do is suggest she get help and some time to recoup.

            1. NewBoss2016*

              Thank you for commenting. I agree that seeing a therapist would probably greatly help her. I don’t know how to broach that topic though. I know what to say when addressing problems at work, and encouraging her to take time off, but is it out of line to say you should probably go to a doctor for your anxiety?

              1. callietwo...*

                Does your company have an EAP?

                When I had someone that was bringing her personal issues to work and causing a lot of drama where it became clear that no amount of coaching and talking on my part was going to affect change was to put this person on a PIP and a mandated referral to EAP services.

                This PIP and referral had a short list of items that needed to be corrected, including working on body language (eye rolling, huffing and puffing at people, the tight arm crossing/leg crossing, foot swinging that made it clear she was shutting people down when she wasn’t getting her way, for example) On the bottom line she was achieving her performance measures but not without alienating everyone she came in contact with, clients and coworkers alike.

                In this case, the EAP could be for working on stress management in the work place, time management, prioritizing and working through her anxieties.

    2. LawBee*

      My friend was that person – great at her job, then totally fell apart because her personal life was imploding. Her boss informed her that effective the next day, she was on a three week vacation (paid, as she had PTO accumulated) and that it was expected that she get her shit together in that time. It wasn’t a punishment, and after Friend got past the tears and horror at being told to not come back for three weeks, she really appreciated having someone else step in. She took the time off as intended, got things in order, then had a few days of just mental and emotional rest. When she went back, she was back to her high level of performance.

      So – time off can help. And if your assistant is in a Death Spiral, she’s probably convinced herself that she CAN’T take time off.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        You hit the nail on the head. When I encourage her to take time off for herself, she refuses because she CAN’T because of various non-issues. I think she is afraid to take time off, even though it is highly encouraged. We have never had to make someone go on vacation, but I had actually planned on asking my boss if we can do that during our next one-on-one.

  49. A. Student*

    I uploaded a CV and cover letter assignment this morning, which I really would have struggled with if it wasn’t for your blog and its readers! Thank you everyone :)

  50. Courageous cat*

    Talk about sexual assault in here fyi.

    What do you do if one of your indirect bosses says something misogynistic not about you, but in your presence, so you mention it to your direct supervisor who is also the highest up in the company, and then said supervisor supports you, AND YET then goes on a long rant about how victims of sexual assault should be publicly humiliated for being stupid enough to put themselves in that position, ie, wear revealing clothes, be alone at night with powerful men, etc? I told him I disagreed and thought we should move on multiple times, but he clearly saw it as an intellectual debate and “nothing personal” so he kept going.

    I’m the only woman in this office. There is no HR – my supervisor basically is HR. Am I overreacting for thinking this is very toxic and I should be looking elsewhere? I don’t know how to look my supervisor in the eye anymore. I am too upset by him thinking these things and THEN thinking they’d be ok to say to me.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s pretty gross. You are not overreacting. He’s also flat out telling you in “an intellectual debate” how he’ll react if you are ever directly sexually assaulted and report it to him.

    3. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      Ohhhhhhhh my God that is horrifying. I definitely do not think you’re overreacting. That gives you great information about how the workplace would handle sexual harassment if it happened–it sounds to me like he basically told you “if this ever happens to you, keep your mouth shut.”

      1. Courageous cat*

        You’re absolutely right. What’s interesting is that he does also completely blame the person committing the assault, so like… that’s good, but then yes, he goes on to say the victim should take some of the blame as well. And I just cannot.

    5. Foreign Octopus*

      Shall we also stone sexual abuse survivors? How about drown them? Or burn them at the stake? That’s how we used to deal with women who spoke up.

      I am so, so, so sick of people who think that this type of behaviour is okay. Honestly, Courageous Cat, this would be my goddamn hill to die on. I’d be flying my bra from the mast and screaming at everyone who thought that this is an okay thing to say.

      If you’re not in a position to leave your job, next time he starts talking, just walk away.

      And start looking for a job as soon as.

      1. Courageous cat*

        I’m thinking I will be telling the only other person above him when I leave. If I do it now I will likely be retaliated against with no job, but I think this is literally going to be the thing that pushes me out. I work so closely with him, how can I possibly ever enjoy doing that again?

    6. A.N.O.N.*

      This is made even more disturbing by the fact that he’s essentially HR. What happens if an employee tells him that they’re being sexually harassed by someone else in the company?

      Definitely get out.

      1. Courageous cat*

        This is a very good point. I think he wouldn’t say anything and would secretly think this underneath. Which is just as appalling.

    7. Courageous cat*

      What also kills me is that we have both invested so much time in each other and our positions, and had a strong relationship until now. How could he be so stupid as to throw that away so easily? How can you not know how profoundly offended I would be by that?

      1. Inspector Spacetime*

        Privilege. I’m the only woman in my office too, and sometimes there are little sexist comments, or jokes, or “intellectual debates.” It really sucks, but not for them, because it doesn’t affect them. Good luck!

      2. Artemesia*

        I don’t understand how a man in 2017 is still unable to see a woman as a human being and doesn’t see that expecting women to not be out in the world, meet one on one with colleagues or bosses etc etc is to put women at a decided professional disadvantage. I’d pull no punches about the ingrained sexism and punitive attitude towards women who are harassed is what pushed you out. Hope you find a great job soon.

        1. Courageous cat*

          I am going to. I hate that it will burn that bridge with my boss when I am not the one who said something deeply messed up, but such is life. I can’t let this go.

    8. Student*

      He is clearly telling you (and, probably, all of your co-workers) that if one of your co-workers sexually assaults you, he will blame you and defend the guy.

      Think about that hard. All the guys you work with have a blanket blessing, in advance, from your boss, to assault you with no consequences and the full protection of your boss. Not only will he protect the guy in such a situation, he will take you down in the most publicly humiliating way he can. And he will enjoy doing so.

      Run!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      “So tell me, Bossman, if the victim was your mother/wife/daughter/sister is this the same advice you would give them? Wait. What if the victim was YOU? Would your advice still hold true in your mind? Were YOU asking for it?”

      Yep, I would probably make it my hill to die on. I would probably be digging up respected articles on the net and telling him, “Here’s tonight’s home work, we will discuss this article in the morning.” He wants an intellectual discussion I will require him to be thinking.

      1. Courageous cat*

        I have thought long and hard about that. I literally want to send him links about how wrong he is. And I told him, like… I’m not just making this up, there is actual research and thinkpieces and articles in general on how wrong you are and how messed up what you’re saying is. I really just wish I could do that without it impacting my job.

  51. Some sort of Management Consultant*

    Sorry for the vagueness of this question:

    My family might be ruined in a month and I don’t know how to prepare. Or they might not be.

    My family’s been part of a lengthy court case for years (way too complicated to explain here) but essentially, if we lose, my parents lose EVERYTHING. We’re hopeful though.

    The verdict is due in a month. My job and my boss are aware of the case (it’s been very publicized) and I’ve already put in for days off on the day of the verdict and the day after. I’ve an agreement with my boss that I might need more time off if we lose because it will be… crushing.

    What more can I do to prepare? (With regards to my job, I mean).

    It’s so hard because everything is so uncertain – our lives might be ruined – or not!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Well from what little you’ve said about your boss and the job, it seems like you’ve already covered needing time off. Is there anything you can delegate for that time, or does anyone covering you need documentation or instructions of any kind? If so, I’d get that ready to go.

      As for the case, I hope it works out. People do get through losing everything. It’s hard, but it’s doable. Good luck to your parents.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        True. I know lots of people go through worse. It’s just… hard to remember when you’re in the middle of it all.

        I’ll make a list but I think things would be ok without for a little while.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          *hug* I wasn’t implying that others go through worse (I hate it when people say that; it’s not a contest). I only meant that this is survivable and it’s possible to recover. Because it is. *another hug*

    2. Observer*

      You have a job. You are not about to lose it. You are also not necessarily going to lose your relationships. So, keep that in mind.

      I’m not trying to minimize the problem, just trying to help you focus on something more useful. This is going to be a crushing blow, and of course, you are going to be expected to help your parents. But you need to figure out how to focus on your job, and the other things you need to do to keep your life going.

      You may also want to look at what you can do to make the most of your income, in the short term. And give yourself a timeline on figuring out how to improve your economics in the long term, if that’s realistic. You’re not going to be able to think about in any useful fashion in the shot term, because you’ll all be doing a lot of adjusting, but you can start thinking about things like job change, career change, etc.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        That is true.

        I’m a high earner for my age so I don’t think there is much to do about that.

        To be honest, I’m not sure how much my parents will get to keep. (It’s surprisingly hard to find good info about it all) but as far as I know, they can’t touch my mom’s money. Both my parents are old and therefore retired so career changes aren’t on the cards for them. But they ought to be able to keep my mom’s pension and their house (they have a pre-nup so they can’t touch my mom’s property)

        We haven’t talked in detail about what my siblings and I will do to help in case they lose. They’ve said many times they don’t want us to support them but I guess it will depend on the verdict. They know we will help them as much as we can though.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          In that case, it doesn’t sound like they’re at risk of losing EVERYTHING at all. Not to minimize their situation, of course, but it sounds like a lot of things are actually pretty safe. I like to decide what my worst case scenario is and then figure out how I’ll deal with that, so understanding that their worst case scenario isn’t as bad as your immediate knee-jerk reaction might help ease your anxiety about this.

          1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

            You’re right.
            It’s hard to be… logical with this.
            They will lose… very very very much though.

    3. NewBoss2016*

      I am so sorry that you are going through this. I can’t imagine how this must be weighing on you.
      I would prepare as if you were going to be out (just in case) in regards to having any work you can get prepared ahead of time, having a list of priority tasks, and checking with your boss on who can cover those tasks, etc. Maybe ask your boss to discretely ask your co-workers not to question you about the case when you return (if that will be upsetting/throw you off focus)? I hope for a positive outcome for you.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Thank you for your kind words!

        The “what boss should tell coworkers”is a good idea.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think that breaking this into parts and insisting on logic prevailing will go a ways to help you.
      I remember being in a panic over a potential suit against my family. One person pointed out to me that they cannot take your house because that is a violation of your constitutional rights. I have no idea if that was true or if that holds any water now, however it did get me to thinking.

      Lawsuits have two part answers. One part is who prevails, the plaintiff or the defendant. The next part is if the plaintiff prevails the dollar amount is decided separately. You can sue for 10 million dollars and get 10 dollars. You won the case but basically lost the award. The dollar amount is a separate discussion.

      Don’t lose today worrying about tomorrow. Stay sharp right now. Keep your eyes open and carefully review everything you know. It ain’t over until it is over. You might think of a key point that no one else thought of or you may find solutions that will help your parents later.

      Keep your finances separate, do nothing that puts you in jeopardy. Keep yourself on level ground. We cannot rescue other people if we, ourselves, are drowning.

      If worst case scenario happens, then they will have to simplify their lives. Both my father and I lost much of what we had paying off medical bills for our spouses. I am here to tell you that life does not come to an end. It’s different, but it is not over. Encourage them to cry when they need to and encourage them to make sure that their basic needs are met.
      Let us know how you and they are doing.

      1. Some sort of Management Consultant*

        Thank you so much for the reality check and the advice! (I wish there was a way to notify people in the comments)

        I’m sorry you and your family has struggled so much though.

        It’s true, what you say about the amount, my parents aren’t the only plaintiffs and have BY FAR the least money. There is one person who has a big fortune and that’s really who they’re out to get. The rest of us are just…collateral damage.

        But when someone suing for a billion dollars, that just… isn’t much comfort.

        (For us, it wouldn’t matter if they were suing for 10 or 100 billion or even 10 or 1 million because guess what, we don’t have that kind of money. That’s what makes it all so farcical)

  52. DrPeteLoomis*

    The food thread from the other day got me thinking about this topic, and I was hoping to tap into the commentariat for some help. Lately I’ve noticed an uptick in “diet talk” in my office, but not really the overt kind where people are actually talking about diets, just a lot more talk about “good” and “bad” foods or even sometimes needing to “work off” certain foods. My usual strategy is to try to deflect these comments with some food/body positivity. For example, if people start saying things like “Oh, I can’t keep ice cream in the house because I just go crazy and eat the whole thing” I’ll just say “I love ice cream! Have you tried such-and-such flavor?” The problem is that I’m starting to wonder if this isn’t truly a deflection and is instead seen as sort of tacit involvement in the diet talk. A complicating factor is that I actually do genuinely like talking about food. I like sharing recipes, or guessing the secret ingredient in something, or even sharing trivial nutrition facts (like foods that you wouldn’t expect to have a lot of vitamin C or something along those lines). So, I don’t necessarily want to completely shut down food talk, but I definitely want to make it clear that I am not up for discussions on the morality of consuming various food-stuffs. Any thoughts or ideas on dealing with diet talk at work?

    1. Footiepjs*

      I think it’s okay to say something like “I don’t like attaching a value judgement to food/eating certain foods” or “It’s kind of strange to describe a food as sinful, huh”. I know it’s awkward to talk about at work though. You can just sort of ignore it or respond to a different thought than what was said – like you did with your “I love ice cream” statement.

      1. Rainy*

        I like these statements.

        One thing I will often say when talk about food starts veering into identifiably body- or health-related “diet” talk is “I don’t like negative self-talk” followed if necessary by “I’m sorry, I don’t participate in negative self-talk. If you want to talk about this you need to do it elsewhere.”

  53. Opalescent Tree Shark*

    I have an update about the Fergus situation that I posted about two weeks ago! (See link in my screen name if you don’t remember).

    Fergus was allowed to keep his job. In case you were wondering if the c-level person actually had good reasons for wanting someone with a degree in this position or if it was purely classist, the compromise they came to should answer that for you. They decided that his title needed to be changed from “specialist” to “assistant specialist.” His pay, job duties, and everything else are the same. Clients don’t know our job titles anyway, so its definitely not about optics. It’s purely so that he knows that he’s not ranked the same as everyone else in her eyes. So stupid.

    I’d also like to point out that although Fergus does not have a degree, he knows way more about our work than most people with degrees. There’s not a degree that exists directly about our field. Think there are degrees in tea, but none in teapots. Some really good college programs understand that teapots are an important part of tea so they offer classes in them, but most focus only on tea and not the vessels used to make tea. That’s not actually particularly helpful in understanding how to sculpt a teapot. Fergus has been sculpting clay as a hobby since he was a young teenager. He definitely knows more about building something sturdy and beautiful than any of our entry level employees fresh out of college. In fact, I’ve often encouraged Fergus to start his own teacup making business, as a lot of other employees often come to him to make teacups for their personal use. It’s just so inane that the higher-up thinks he’s less competent because he doesn’t have a degree that isn’t even directly relevant.

    1. Shiara*

      I’m so glad Fergus was allowed to keep the job, even if the title change is ridiculous and petty. Thanks for the update!

    2. Emac*

      If I were Fergus, I probably wouldn’t want to stay at the company long after that. I mean, is the lack of degree going to mean that he’ll be limited to that title/role forever? But if he does stay and the lack of degree is *so* important to them, it would be nice if they’d do everything they can to help him get the degree (if he wants) – full tuition reimbursement, flexible schedule, whatever. Especially since it sounds like he’s already shown he’ll be a valuable employee.

  54. Overeducated*

    My spouse and I are both in job search purgatory, and the waiting is KILLING me. I “accepted” a verbal offer for a job in my current city over 3 weeks ago. Still waiting on the formal offer because of very lengthy background checks and bureaucratic hurdles around hiring restrictions, and the hiring manager is updating me weekly but told me not to give notice unless and until the offer comes through. Meanwhile, my partner interviewed for a somewhat better (tenure track, lower COL area) job 3 hours away two weeks ago, and is still waiting to hear back about the results. Obviously these two jobs could potentially come into conflict, since we don’t want to live apart long term, so at this point it’s just a waiting game to see who gets an offer first. If we both do, and either of us can negotiate something like a delayed start or partial remote work or something, that would be ideal, but that might not be possible.

    Please send health insurance, sympathy, or cookies.

  55. Allypopx*

    I only have about a month left at a job I’ve been at for 5 and a half years, and I’m starting to get really sad. Excited for the next phase, but god I’m gonna miss everyone here.

    I’m also having trouble getting out of bed and dragging myself to work everyday, so it’s a two sided coin.

  56. Anonabug*

    I work at a location that requires 24/7/365 coverage. There are six supervisors, all salary. Two are assigned to specific customers, with some tasks associated to those customers, however all supervisors have been told that they are a team together, of the same rank, and should look out for one another and the whole floor. Those two supervisors work 8-5 M-F. The other four work 12 hour shifts with an 8 hour “half day” on Wednesday. The shifts are otherwise 8-8 Thur-Sat or Sat-Tues.

    One of the day shift sups had vacation recently, and the customer specific sups refused to acknowledge requests for assistance in covering. This caused the other day sup to work 3 shifts (12 days) straight of 12 hour days. As salary, he received no benefit for doing this.

    Night shift sups have a similar battle. When one is out for vacation or is ill, the other must cover or there is no supervisor on shift. While the supervisor is not physically required to be present at all times, there are tasks that require supervisor responses many times a night. If something goes wrong, a supervisor is a necessary resource. Neither the managers (all assigned to specific customers) nor any of the other supervisors have been willing to step up, so either the second supervisor works days in a row, or is called in on short notice (in the case of illness). This is not conducive to work/life balance.

    Comp days don’t really work, because there is never an opportunity to take one without directly impacting the opposite supervisor.

    I’m the newest supervisor of the four, both in tenure in the title (months) and with the company (a year, as opposed to 4-10), and I was promoted very early in a normal promotion cycle due to previous experience. I have the least office capital to spend, but the management listens when I bring up concerns, and I’ve already been able to suggest some positive changes that are being implemented.

    One of the day supervisors in the last meeting asked for assistance from the customer specific sups, citing the other day shift supervisor having to cover his vacation. They said “sure, just ask for help and we’ll help” (which had already been done with no response), and then later that day one of them moved desks to a spot farther from any of the people servicing his customer. That particular supervisor is close drinking buddies with almost all of the managers who are above us, including his and mine.

    I’m at a loss for this one that doesn’t involve getting a new rec created for night shift (unlikely), and starting a battle I might well die in trying to get the customer specific sups to act like a team. I know I’m not their manager, and I fear repercussions from this customer specific supervisor if I bring anything up to his managers.

    I’m one of the night shift sups.

    Suggestions? I really appreciate it!

    1. Lizard*

      I understand you all are salary, that’s ok, but there should be some type of additional compensation for when this occurs, either monetary or comp time off. My husband is salaried (he’s police) and if he works extra time, he does make overtime. This is because he can get stuck working an entire weekend if there is a serious call or investigation. Your company is awful for not implementing something similar bc of the serious impact it has on those who work crummy shifts and can never get coverage. Have you raised this to your directors or whoever has the power to push for change?

      1. Anonabug*

        I dropped a hint the other day to that director’s admin, by way of asking a question. This morning the director casually dropped by and asked how we handle holidays, and I was up front (without a complaining tone). Hopefully that’s a start.

    2. Artemesia*

      There is no solution unless the boss requires all of you to fill in for vacations i.e. orders the two slackers to be available for this duty — and it might mean he needs to actually be the last word on assigning coverage. You have done the collegial approach. The only winning ticket is for whomever is over all of you to make it clear and enforce it.

      1. LCL*

        What Artemisia said. I would add, it is really hard to understand shift coverage issues when they are explained verbally. Prepare some visual representation to show management what the coverage is, and what is happening to it. Last time our work group had to illustrate coverage, one of us sketched out a bar graph which was enough to show what was happening.

  57. Landlocked Thalassophile*

    Ah….it’s the season for performance reviews and the dreaded self-evaluations that precede them….
    I never know how to answer some of the more patronizing questions that assume I am a slacker:
    “What could you be doing to better carry out your job duties, but are choosing not to?”
    “What keeps you from being completely engaged in your job?”
    etc etc
    Combined with a company policy that NO ONE can be rated higher than a 3 on a 1-5 scale, I find the whole process very demoralizing. It’s impossible to be evaluated as anything better than “meets expectations” and I am asked every year to document what I *choose* not to do at work?
    I guess the philosophy is that there is always room for improvement, but the message is “You’re never going to be better than mediocre and we want you to tell us why.”
    I really enjoy my day-to-day work, and my little corner of the company is great. My manager is responsive, deals well with stuff, isn’t afraid to give positive OR negative feedback tactfully. But every year, the company wide self-evaluation makes me roll my eyes (at best) or gets me ragey.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      I’m on-board with the “only give 4s or 5s for exceptional work” policy (which I realize is not as strict as yours is) but those questions are HORRIBLE. I also hate doing self-evaluations, but as I mention in my post below, it’s also difficult when the self-evaluation is out of line with what the manager’s evaluation is. I’m sorry that you’re having trouble with this on the employee side. (At least you have a good manager. I’m certain that my employees are suffering from my not being at the top of my game as a manager.)

    2. Jackfruit Beret*

      My first boss out of college told me that she never gave 5s, because there was always room for improvement. My current company also has an unofficial policity not to give 5s unless someone is getting promoted. They feel that if they praise someone too much they’ll get cocky and want more $$, a better title, a better office, whatever. I understand the logic. But, it’s a crappy way to treat people.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Our policy is described a bit as “if you’re giving someone 5s regularly, they’re either going to burn out or your expectations are too low.”

        1. Jackfruit Beret*

          Then why have 5s at all? If they’re awesome, tell them they’re awesome. The alternative is instead of burn out, you’ll get people leaving due to lack of acknowledgement. Neither is good and both can be avoided.

      2. Jennifer*

        If they gave out 5’s, they’d have to give raises, which will never happen. It’s “meets expectations” all the way, baby!

    3. Lisa*

      “What could you be doing to better carry out your job duties, but are choosing not to?”
      As the review process states that it is impossible to be rated higher than a 3 on a 1-5 scale, I typically do not carry out the duties which would rank me at a 4 or 5. I competently complete my job duties but do not go above and beyond because the company’s actions show that it is not valued.

      “What keeps you from being completely engaged in your job?”
      The review process which is highly demoralizing and highlights that we are not expected to do anything better than meet expectations.

      Only if anonymous, of course. Or not, depending on how frustrating and how well you think your manager would take these comments.

    4. JustaTech*

      “What could you be doing to better carry out your job duties, but are choosing not to?”
      I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a leading, and demoralizing question. I mean, this is up there in the “have you stopped beating your wife” territory of impossible questions.

      “I am choosing to not completely ignore my family in the name of work.”
      “I am choosing to comply with all relevant local laws rather than engage in illegal activities to get ahead.”
      “I am choosing to not take amphetamines that would let me work 48 hours straight.”

      What kind of answers do they want?

  58. Teapot Librarian*

    So much to report/vent/ask about this week! (I’ve been waiting for right now since Tuesday. It’s been that kind of a week.)
    Vent number 1: I had to reschedule my one on ones with my employees this week. I emailed and asked “let me know your availability on Friday.” Two of the five sent me a range of times. Two offered a specific time but *asked* if that time would work. One said “I’m free at [XX time].” He’s busy, I get it, but I’d like to think that if I’d been the one responding to my boss asking that question, I would say “I’m only available at XX time on Friday, but I have this other time available on Thursday, if XX time doesn’t work for you.” Am I being unreasonable to be (mildly) annoyed by this response?

    Vent number 2: Performance evaluations. Holy curseword are they hard to write! It doesn’t help that my view of my employees’ performance is so wildly out of line with their view of their performance. Which leads me to

    Vent number 3: One of my employees wrote in his self evaluation that he “is the only individual in the office who has the knowledge and experience to perform every position in the office.” As in, “you, my manager, don’t know how to do the work we do here.” He also wrote that “management [aka me] went behind my back… etc.”

    And my question: one of my employees just told me that he is going to need to go to part-time for medical reasons. He’s only been here a few months and is still in his probationary period, but he’s a good employee and responds well to direction/coaching. We definitely need a full person in his position, though, and since it’s government, we can’t just hire another person. I have to think about what my various options are and what I think we should do, and of course I need to talk to my own boss, but I would love to get some input from this wise group of people. Have you been in this position as a boss? As an employee? What did you do?

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      Vent #1: Rescheduling things is always a bear. It’s okay to be mildly annoyed, but consider whether you’re annoyed by just that one comment, or whether it’s more of ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back.’ If my boss said he wanted to meet on Friday, I wouldn’t think twice about saying “here’s the time I’m free”- even if it’s just once. If I wasn’t free at all, that would trigger alternate day suggestions.
      Vent #2: Do you do monthly check-ins? I’ve found that the annual performance evaluations are all around less painful when no one is surprised by what’s in them. They just summarize our conversations throughout the year.
      Vent #3: Ay yi yi.
      Part-time status: Is he eligible for FMLA? If not, then I’d be sincerely sympathetic while explaining that this position has full-time job responsibilities and cannot be converted to a part-time position.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Vent #1 is definitely not the only issue with this employee. (See vent #3.) I have a hard time not getting sucked into his power plays.

    2. K, Esq.*

      Vent 1: You are being unreasonable. You asked when he was free on Friday. He responded with when he was free on Friday.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Am giggling. This is one of those times where I would tell myself, “They answered the question as I had framed it.” When you don’t get the answers you want reframe your question the next time.
        I found it helpful to laugh at myself. I did it often.

  59. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    I would love some tips on how to stay motivated in my last year of college. For some reason it’s been difficult for me to enjoy my classes, stay interested in college politics and goings-on, or feel invested in any of the work that I’m producing (mostly writing essays) this semester. I want to enjoy this year especially because I know that life will be very different very soon, but I’m struggling to take the long view. Is there anything yo

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Is “enjoy[ing] this year” the same as “stay[ing] motivated”? A lot of second-semester seniors aren’t highly motivated, especially if they aren’t applying to grad school. Maybe you don’t need to be highly academically motivated, though. If classes and college politics aren’t interesting you, what is right now? Even if it’s just the social time with your friends, that’s valuable (and will definitely change after this last year).

      1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

        That’s a good point. I guess part of the issue might be that I originally thought I was going to grad school, so I poured a lot of time and energy into my classwork, sometimes at the expense of my friendships/other interests.
        If I can figure out how to spend more time doing the things I care more about while still graduating, I think that would be helpful.

    4. Footiepjs*

      Are you a traditional student? Do you live on campus or nearby? If so, I’d recommend making the most of the social opportunities as a reward for all the work you’ve done.

      I had pretty bad senioritis so I’m not a role model or anything. During undergrad I was burned out on school after being a student for so many years. Work hard and play hard (within reason and safety!) and try to immerse yourself in the experience because it won’t be like this for much longer. Maybe join a student group. I joined my school’s environmental club the last two years and had a show on our online radio station.

      I know a lot of what I said isn’t very concrete but I hope it’s somewhat helpful.

    5. Alli525*

      Oh boy. I very nearly dropped out between junior and senior year (my high school senioritis basically just never went away), but basically I just had to tell myself that a year is a very short amount of time, and then all the doors that open up when you have a bachelor’s degree would start opening up. (ha ha ha ha ha I graduated a year later in 2008 ha ha ha ha…. ha.)

      You’re allowed to start disengaging at this point! Goodbyes are hard, especially when we’re talking about saying goodbye to the school routine you’ve literally ALWAYS known and having the “training wheels” come off. Maybe you could write a bucket list of things you definitely want to do before you graduate, like sneaking in and making out on the 50-yard-line of the football field, or joining a wacky club just to learn a new skill, or chasing down your favorite professor and convincing him to supervise your independent study, or whatever.

      Or you could do what I did (in addition to options 1 & 3, which I also did), and start couples counseling with your significant other to try to make things work, make things work for a couple more months, then break up a month before graduation. THAT took up a lot of my mental space! :/

    6. KatiePie*

      Ugh, I worked 30 hours/wk on top of a full course load my senior year. I got by on the knowledge that it was just a few more months and then I’d have X more time available.

      I’d go from working 30 hours at my job to 40, but I’d gain back all my class time + study time + time trying to find parking (blech), etc.

      I’m a math person, so I’d literally take joy in calculating the number when I needed a break from my assignments. Then would think about what I was going to do with all that time.

  60. Anonymous Educator*

    Someone I work with (but not technically a co-worker) is looking into grad schools and saw that I went to the school she wants to go to and for a similar program to the one she wants to go for. I hated my experience at that school. And yet it seemed there was nothing I could do to dissuade her from going (assuming she gets in). Le sigh.

    1. Fictional Butt*

      When I visited the school I’m currently at, a student pulled me aside and told me how much she hated it for various reasons. I appreciated her warning me… but none of the things she mentioned bothered me or dissuaded me from attending, and in fact, I love the program. Different things work for different people.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, it’s been a while since I went, so I’m actually hoping some of the problems there are now gone or fixed.

  61. Jackfruit Beret*

    I have a problem. I do not like, respect, or trust the head of my department. I vary between trying to be exceptionally nice or complimentary to cover up for the fact that the very sight of this person makes me want to run away. But there are days where I literally do not have the energy to feign niceness. Her communication style is vague and her motives are never clear. And so I sometimes respond bluntly to make sure she understands what it is that I’m working on and what the strategy is, which I think she takes as an insult or rudeness (though she hasn’t said as much). Making things worse is that my boss is going on FMLA and I will no longer have a buffer. I really am not sure if I will survive the next few months.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Oof. I read the beginning of this and thought you might be my employee. I try not to be vague but I think at least some of my employees think that I am. And one of my employees is definitely blunt to the point of rudeness in his communication with me. Except he doesn’t tell me most of what he’s working on and he definitely doesn’t tell me what his strategies are. I hope I’m not as bad as your department head, and I hope that you survive while your boss is out on leave!

      1. Jackfruit Beret*

        Honestly, she couldn’t be you. She has never admitted to being wrong (which she has been) and would immediately argue if you told her she was being vague, which is why I am so blunt with her now. Either way, I appreciate the well wishes! I’ll no doubt need them.

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I feel you. I have absolutely no respect for my grandboss, who spends more time lying to people about all the work he’s doing than actually doing work. (As I’m typing this, I just got a text from a worker which says “grandboss is on the phone talking really loud. I think he does that so people think he’s busy”). I have settled on stiff politeness for my interactions with him, which are blessedly few & far between.

  62. Anonypony*

    OK, I have a situation that I really can’t tell if I’m being petty about it, or if it’s as weird as I think? I’m scheduling phone interviews for a bunch of people for next week and one of the candidates, after I sent timing options that covered 2 days with like 5 time slots each, told me that he can’t do any of the times/days I offered because he’ll be at work during all of the times provided.
    …
    Like, yeah? Interviewing is a thing that normally happens during work hours? There was no other additional context offered, or any indication of if times during the workday just won’t work ever, or only won’t in these cases? Like “I have some really tight deadlines so I can’t take any time out of work next week, but if it’s possible to schedule this before or after the work day, I would love to make it happen”? Nothing like that. Am I being way petty by being confused and put off by this whole response?

    1. La Revancha*

      Did you offer any times during lunch? If not then I don’t think its that out of the ordinary that he can’t escape for a job interview. Maybe he has a strict or nosy boss.

      1. Anonypony*

        Yeah, I would totally get that, and I’ve definitely had candidates request specifically an early or later interview, or during lunch time, for various reasons and I’m always happy to accomodate that. I’m just thrown by the fact that I gave a ton of times, and he returned with “I’ll be at work during those times” which I assume close to 100% of the candidates I’m scheduling will also be, and he gave no indication of what would work better. Just “do you have any other times or dates available.” I mean, sure, I do, but they’re all during work hours too! What do you need me specifically to do here?!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      There was no other additional context offered, or any indication of if times during the workday just won’t work ever, or only won’t in these cases?

      I’d write off this candidate for precisely this reason. If he doesn’t get that that context matters while he’s a candidate, you can bet he’ll send weird email responses like that, too, as a direct report or co-worker.

    3. JD*

      Probably not petty. He should have offered alternatives. That being said one time I mentioned I couldn’t do it during work hours and that I got off at 4pm so she scheduled it for 3pm. That was an eye roll.

  63. Normally A Lurker*

    When do you go to the labor board for lost wages?

    I freelance with a small company, and they have paid me some of the time I have invoiced them, but not all of it.

    I emailed them a week before the paycheck come out (we get paid once a month) about the missing time from last month, and never heard back.

    I just received this month’s paycheck, and it’s short again.

    I emailed them a full accounting of the invoices I’ve submitted and the amount received and the total still due (like 30 mins ago).

    My question is – is the next step the labor board? If so, how long do I wait for them to respond before I do that?

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Actually, if you’re a freelancer, you might not be able to go to the labor board, since they handle employee wages (tho I know there’s an NYC law specifically for freelancers). I would try emailing up the ladder at the company, in case maybe someone is out sick or not with the company anymore? And give a heads up that if you don’t receive a satisfactory response in X days that you’ll begin examining your legal options.

      1. Normally A Lurker*

        Luckily, I am in NYC. And I”m being paid as a contractor.

        Unluckily, there is no one higher up the ladder. It’s a small company and the person who does the billing also owns the company.

  64. Izzy Legal*

    Curious about anyone who has experience in job searching via LinkedIn. Specifically, contacting the recruiter via InMail. To me, I’ve already expressed interest in the job by applying, but what should I say/ask the recruiter as a follow up?

    Thanks for any advice!

    1. La Revancha*

      I’ve tried to do this a few times and the recruiter never responds. I think its a lost cause and a waste of time. Sending them a message after you’ve sent your application doesn’t make you more or less qualified.

    2. Rex*

      Yeah, don’t contact the recruiter unless you already know them, you’ll just annoy them.

      I think the best use if this function is to try to see if you have any mutual connections who could recommend you to the employer / recruiter. Then reach out to those people and ask. (Ideally if they are people who are familiar with your work and think highly of you.)

      1. Alli525*

        100% agreed. If the hiring manager doesn’t know you, an InMail message isn’t going to make a difference. Your cover letter should say everything that needs to be said to interest your potential employer.

        That said, you used the word “recruiter,” not “hiring manager” – is the job being filled through a recruiter and not directly through the company? Because recruiters message me on LinkedIn ALL the dang time, so I’d say in this instance it might be acceptable to shoot the recruiter a message if you weren’t able to submit a cover letter with your application.

  65. Ruth (UK)*

    I’m starting a new job in the first week of December which I’m very excited and also nervous about. I’m wondering if anyone has any general advice particularly considering it’s right before Xmas.

    For some context etc this is an admin role in a university in a small city in the UK.

    From a personal point of view I don’t especially do anything for Xmas, nor am I against being involved in anything xmassy (though I won’t say no to a mince pie…). My family is fairly low key about the holiday; my mom’s an American who moved to the UK, from the Jewish background (which is very rare around here. I didn’t know any Jews outside my family growing up) and my dad is from a Christian family but is not religious himself.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Mmm, mince pie. Had my first one last year and am now craving it. I asked the pasty food truck if they would have it again this year and they said “Just for you.” :3

      I’m not sure what your question is–are you asking if you should share plans with coworkers if they ask what you’re doing for the holiday? You’re not obligated to answer questions with any real details. “Spending time with family” or something like that is acceptable.

      Or are you wondering about office festivities? I think since you’re just starting the job, it’s okay to hang back a little and not feel like you have to dive in, since you’re still trying to suss out the office culture. I started OldExJob in mid-December and that’s pretty much what I did.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        I guess I’m just not sure about whether or not any awkwardness might arise if, for example, they have an Xmas party or something. The job I’m leaving does an Xmas meal together which I am actually still attending even though it’s after the end of my notice period. I’ve been at the job a little over three years (which also happens to be when the company formed so I’ve been here from the start).

        I’m aware that some offices have things like this planned in the first few weeks of December so I’m not sure how weird it would be to take part in such things considering my newness Vs how weird it would be not to. I’m speculating wildly and at random as I have no idea if they even do anything at all.

        In my old/current job we also do an office secret santa, for example..

        1. Bagpuss*

          I started a job mid December – the Christmas party was actually a good thing to do as it meant I met all my new coworkers. (It wasn’t *fun*, because I was meeting so many people, and couldn’t really relax as I didn’t know what to expect, and I’m not a party person, anyway, but it was useful and I think meant I was accepted more quickly than if I had not gone.

          I’d play it by ear – if you are invited, go. If not, don’t take it personally.

    2. Durham Rose*

      There will probably be a departmental tea or lunch or something before the holidays but I find that Brits don’t go over the top with Christmas celebrations. I’m sure it will be low key and nothing to be concerned about!

      1. Bagpuss*

        This depends hugely on the company. My sister’s former firm used to have huge black-tie event every year.

    3. Ange*

      I’d guess you’re probably too late to join in on something booked like a restaurant meal (as they’ve probably finalised numbers by now), but if there’s an in-office party, I’m sure they’d expect you to come to that. It would be weird and unwelcoming otherwise – the newbie sitting alone in the office listening to everyone else party down the hall is a terrible scenario.

  66. onyxzinnia*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for combating the “this is the way we’ve always done things” mentality among senior leadership teams? My personality is one where I am regularly striving for continuous improvement in all areas of my life. I love my company and I am regularly inspired by reading publications, attending industry events, and networking with peers. I like to share my ideas because I believe people shouldn’t operate in a vacuum and that everyone has something to contribute. However, when I suggest ideas for different projects and how we can work together to improve our culture, people get offended.

    I love my job otherwise but I’m really struggling with this one aspect. I’m a mid-level employee if that makes a difference.

    1. Bluebell*

      I’d try to really choose what you want to present to others. Also, use data to back up new ideas, and try to get the more senior leadership to think whats in it for them. Plus, if you can use the “let’s just try it once, and if it doesn’t work, thats fine” they might be willing to take a risk. Years ago I did that and a senior leadership person said. “OK we’ll try it, but if only 40 of Midlevel Person’s friends show up, we won’t do it again.”
      800 people showed up, it became a recurring event, and now is a consistent revenue stream for this org!

      1. onyxzinnia*

        What a great story! That gives me some hope.

        Thanks for the suggestions, very timely as I’m putting together a pitch for one of the ideas I have that my manager is backing me on (she’s awesome, it’s the others that are very set in the whole “we’ve always done it this way approach” and I think fear that I’m giving them more work)

        1. L.Squared*

          I think it depends on what implementation entails (e.g. small change in workflow versus completely new process), how much experience you have, and how much administration/politics are in play.

          I’m with you that “the way we have always done things” is my actual least favorite. However, I’ve been very careful to observe how things work in my company, and identify small steps that can lead to process improvements, rather than swooping in and changing everything.

          The other thing that I think is huge is your experience and political capital. I’ve seen newer or less experienced employees make suggestions about huge change it sounds like fairies and rainbows, but doesn’t actual exist in real life. Those suggestions come across as naive and won’t be taken seriously. Likewise when someone is constantly making suggestions. Spend political capital wisely.

          Or honestly? One of the ways I’ve been able to change things the most is really getting to know (in my case) the one person who is the most “this is how it’s always been”, and get her to trust my work, and suggest things that aren’t maybe 100% how I wish they were done, but meet her in the middle so she doesn’t feel like I’m taking anything away from her.

      1. onyxzinnia*

        Thanks, I agree! I’ve started reading on the subject, but so far everything I come across seems to be all top-down change management rather than the reverse.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Companies are revenue focused.
      People are self-focused.

      To present an idea you have to show how it will save money or increase revenue for the company to get the idea.
      For people you have to show how it is in their best interest to try New Thing.

      Sometimes you can engage people by saying, “I had X idea. And I was wondering how it could be used to help you save time/money/energy. I bet we could modify it into something you would really like.

      Which brings me to my next point, sometimes it is easier to convert one person than it is to convert the entire group. Get one person on board, let them talk it up how your idea really helped them.

  67. MadHatter*

    How do you handle wacky or unfortunate medicine side effects without talking too much about it?

    I agreed to try antidepressants, and boy did the first one not get along with me. I was randomly getting weepy at work for no reason. I also tried clonazepam for anxiety, and was a stoned (calm!) zombie for a day. I don’t want my colleagues to think less of me for being apparently altered, but I also don’t want to tell everyone TMI about my mental health. Anyone got useful scripts?

    1. the_scientist*

      Are you able to work from home on days when you’re trying out a new med? It’s easier to fake it when you’re on the phone, I find.

      I had to call in sick due to a bad reaction to citalopram- 24 hours of full body tremors!! so if you have the sick time and you know you can’t focus, I’d just do that.

      Another option would just be to say that you’re “under the weather”- it’s true, and non-specific.

      1. MadHatter*

        “WFH, not feeling well” is probably the way to go, yeah. I feel weirdly like I’m lying because I’m not actually sick, but I’m definitely not up for full on office participation.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I don’t have a script for you, but encouragement to keep trying to find the right med. It took me a few different options and doses to find the right one, but my life has really improved so much in the decade I’ve been taking anti-depressants. Once I was on the right med/dose, I wished I’d started taking it 15 years earlier. Lots of good wishes for you!

      1. MadHatter*

        Thanks for the encouragement! It’s useful to hear other people had good results.

        This was venlafaxine, and while I could handle the weepiness the crippling anxiety and severe nausea that followed was a bit much. I’ll probably give something else a go after the Thanksgiving holiday, but for a first experience that was not great.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          My husband deals with anxiety and depression. He found Buproprion XL helpful for quite a while (about 2 years). There’s been several additional stresses recently and he’s currently in the hospital to try and find a new med. It’s tough going through this, but you can do it! There’s a bright side once you find what works for you!

    3. Sarah*

      I’ve been thinking of this too, since I’m planning to go back on meds. For the crying, you could say, “Sorry, this is just a temporary side effect of a medication, nothing to be worried about.” But only if you want to reveal that, of course.

    4. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      You can also say “I’m adjusting my medications for a chronic condition, nothing serious, just making sure everything works right” or whatever sounds natural. Depression/anxiety, etc, are chronic illnesses. No needs to know it’s not something like arthritis or diabetes. Medications that aren’t anti-depressants have side effects, too.

    5. HannahS*

      You can certainly say that you’re having trouble with some medication for a chronic condition, but you can also be vague-er and say something like, “Sorry I’ve been a bit zoned out this week. I’ve really not been feeling well.”

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      Last year I had to try out medications (and with each one, varying doses, so this process lasted nearly a month) and WOW did some of them have side effects, including the one I eventually stayed with.

      I just told those I worked closely with “my doctor has me trying new medication, and some of the side effects I’m feeling are A, B and C. I have to stick this particular variation out for X number of days; I might be trying something else out as well that has similar side effects.”

      Everyone just said “OK” and when I had a particularly rough go, I just said “Sorry, meds!” and it was Ok.

      {The worst day was the one medication that made it feel like I was walking on a moving ship. On dry land. GAH. I ditched that one quickly.}

      Only my immediate coworkers new what the medication was for, but if someone noticed (in one case, I became extremely flushed and had to explain I’m not dying, just on new meds, don’t mind me! In front of an all-exec meeting) I just explained “Medicine!” and continued with my day. Stick with matter-of-fact and you should be Ok.

  68. Anonwifetoday*

    Thanks everyone for your advice last week. My husband signed the severance agreement, did his resume, and read lots of Alison’s good advice on cover letters. This is such a great community.

  69. Hillary*

    I’m simultaneously exhilarated and terrified. I gave notice at my job two weeks ago without something lined up, my last day will be in January. It’s the right thing for my emotional and physical health, and we can handle it financially.
    I’ve only been unemployed once (for three months) since i was fourteen, and I’m in my late 30s. I’m networking and interviewing but wow this is scary. I keep telling myself something will come up, and it will.

    Wednesday I got an email from a company I was talking to a couple months ago, I have a call this afternoon to talk about a newly created position and schedule an in-person meeting. Wow.

    1. nep*

      How exciting. Good for you taking the plunge, to tend to your emotional and physical health.
      Can’t wait to hear how the call goes. Keep us posted. All the best.

    2. MilkMoon (UK)*

      Wonderful! Good Luck!

      Honestly (as long as people can make it financially in some way) I wish more people would just jump-ship from jobs that are negatively impacting them. People are scared that an interviewer will view it negatively – but do you really want to work for someone who thinks a persons’ health isn’t more important than a job? At the interview for my current job (which I love and they love me, yay!) the manager asked about my leaving the previous job after a few months with nothing lined up, and I basically said that I didn’t believe in wasting my life in unhappy situations (paraphrasing) and he said he agreed and was impressed by that. The rest is history!

  70. Cordelia*

    So my husband has been job searching lately, the company he currently works for has lost its contract for the particular work he’s doing so everyone on his account will be without a job in the next 6-ish months or so. He works in a rather in-demand sector of IT, so getting interviews hasn’t been an issue at all (he’s already interviewed with 5 companies in the 6 weeks or so he’s been searching).
    There was one opportunity in particular that he was very excited about, the work is exactly what he wants to be doing, and the company, hiring manager, and team all seemed to be a good fit for his working style. He went through three official rounds of interviews, then on Tuesday got a call from the main person he’d be working with there for one “final conversation”, at the end of which he was told they want to offer him the position and they would work with the recruiter to get the offer put in writing and sent over. Then on Wednesday afternoon, he got a call from the recruiter saying that due to insistence from a higher-up, they will be interviewing one more candidate for the position before making a decision.
    Obviously he’s super frustrated to have gotten the verbal offer and now being told that it’s not final and they’re doing another interview. I’ve tried to reassure him that it sounds like they’re just doing this for political reasons and that he’s really the candidate they want, but has anyone here had any experience with similar situations? Should it be a red flag that they’re giving into “requests” like this from the higher-up at this stage in the process, or is it normal for these kind of political things to come up and happen? I’ve never had anything like this happen to me when job searching.

    1. Observer*

      Yes, they happen. It’s one of the reasons you don’t give notice at a job based on a verbal offer, much less an assurance that “we will offer you the job.”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup. I didn’t give notice at my job until I had a start date and had signed and returned my offer letter precisely for this reason – I was terrified they’d come back and say, “Nevermind – we’re going with someone else.”

    2. Artemesia*

      This is what it sounds like when they want to hire a client’s brother in law or the CEO’s dudebro frat buddy. I have seen ‘last minute’ interviews get hired more than once. Obviously your husband did well but that doesn’t guarantee an offer and it is wise to assume it won’t happen until you have it in writing. It is excruciating to wait and will be excruciating if this friend of the CEO gets hired, but it is not uncommon.

  71. ginkgo*

    Had my three-month review at my job this week and it bruised my ego a little. My boss and grandboss were in the meeting, and boss’s feedback was thoughtful (I need to speak up more in meetings, trust my own judgment, deal with change better and be more self-sufficient instead of coming to her with questions – okay, I can do that) but grandboss basically said I was wasting her team’s time by needing handholding. She also compared me to another associate who is apparently more of a go-getter. Great.

    I came from a completely different job and industry and was expecting some coaching, and I’m learning that my expectations were wrong and that’s fine. And at least I know where I stand with my grandboss now. But I’m still upset and feel like it was unnecessarily harsh. I don’t really have a question, just venting. Ugh.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      OH yeah, ive been there. My micromanaging jerk of a boss put me on a PIP too for that with no prior warnings about anything. And even though I had delivered a big project well and on time in that time frame, because I apparently couldnt read his mind I needed “hand holding”

      What I wish I had known to do at that time was to take a deep breath, gather my thoughts and a week later discuss calmly with him about what we could do to fix the situation and understand a bit more where the perception was coming from. Also, is there anything the associate does as a go getter that you could maybe adapt for your own style? Maybe have coffee with them and get a sense of how they approach the role?

  72. CDN HR*

    so we want to do a 12 days of holidays at work, is there anything you would recommend that may be a fun activity that can be done during work time?

    1. CDN HR*

      all fully optional of course!! we have approx 80 employee. I already have a chocolate box, potluck, ugly sweaters, carolers, Managers bake cookies, day to give back (volunteering), fundraising contest (we’ll match the winner) Foosball tournament.

      1. Artemesia*

        Thursday afternoon off for Christmas shopping. Or Friday afternoon off to get a start on the weekend.

      4. Cloud Nine Sandra*

        This is minor thing, but I’m not Christian and my religion doesn’t do 12 days of anything or have carolers. So even fully optional, I’d still feel like my faith tradition isn’t valued and at the very least, be uncomfortable. Maybe I’m overly sensitive and I do live in the US where it feels like not a great time to be visibly not Christian.

    2. JustaTech*

      My work is doing a thing called “you’ve been Elf’d” (there’s a Halloween version called “you’ve been Boo’d”) where someone will secretly decorate your cube and leave you a box of decorations and then you go decorate someone else’s cube. Work will provide all the boxes of decorations.

      I’ll be honest that I’m not all that excited about this because I’m not a good decorator and I don’t like people messing with my messy desk, but at least we’re not being asked to pay for it ourselves.

      And as Cloud Nine Sandra says, it can really start to grate on people who don’t celebrate Christmas. (I’m not religious but I do still celebrate.)

  74. Aly_b*

    Does anyone have great resources on women in the workplace? My office is looking at Barbara Annis’s Gender Intelligence, and I’m a bit nervous about what seems to be a lack of trans inclusivity, intersectional analysis, and an assumption of neuro typical-ness. We’re pretty good at hiring, keeping, and promoting women (for an engineering firm) but still no where near equal numbers. This is, to my knowledge, the first time we’re doing any kind of systematic look at that. I have already raised some brief concerns but I’m pretty willing to spend some serious political capital on this one to get it right. I’m looking for books, speakers, or ideally consultants, who have a system. Note I haven’t read Annis’s book, I’ve just found out about this yesterday, so I may be misinterpreting based on what was described to me.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Oh goodness. . .you’re about to go into a rabbit hole. I’ve been part of our leadership for our engineering office’s women’s resource group for almost two years. Catalyst is a good place to find some resources, although it’s an organization that you must pay to be a member of. Your local SWE chapter could possibly point you to local speakers. I’m not sure what types of books you’re looking at. We read Lean In and some others as part of our WRG, but those aren’t really guidance to management-type books.

      The NSF has done research in this area. “Stemming the Tide: Why Women Leave Engineering” is one report.

      National Diversity Council has a PDF “Guidebook for Establishing DIversity and Inclusion Employee Resource Groups.”

      I’ve found some consultants in the area, just googling terms like women+engineering+diversity+initiative+consultants, but we have not hired any, so I can’t vouch for them.

      Curious if you are an engineer making a grassroots effort or an HR person who has been tasked with this.

      1. Aly_b*

        Thanks for this! I’m an engineer but a partner at the firm so with some degree of being able to lean on the right people. I’ll definitely look into those resources- it’s a topic I’ve been interested in for a long time but now seems like the moment my organization is receptive to some input.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I haven’t actually watched these yet so I don’t know if they’re any good but I did a quick search on YouTube (intersectional women in the workplace) and these two seem the most promising.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akOe5-UsQ2o (a TED Talk by Kimberlé Crenshaw)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lws-uU7vgOM (a NYC business panel about intersectionality)

      I think what you’re doing is brilliant, by the way. Burn that political capital to get it right!

    3. Student*

      This sounds like you’re taking an attitude of “We can’t be better about hiring, retaining, and promoting women until and unless we ALSO get better about hiring, retaining, and promoting V, W, X, Y, and Z groups, too.”

      That’s not true.

      First, women making progress doesn’t inherently mean groups V, W, X, Y, and Z miss out.

      Second, women don’t need to “wait their turn” behind every other oppressed group there is – if we do, we will never get anywhere at all. You seem to think we either all need to move forward at once, or we need to wait in the back until everyone else has gone ahead of us. We are HALF THE PLANET; we are the ones who get the worst deal proportional to our population. If we can’t get treated fairly, with our numbers and our strengths, what hope do you really think there is for smaller groups? We should be leading the way, not pushing at the back of the line.

      Third, there are women in V, W, X, Y, and Z – those people in both groups will benefit from women moving forward in your company.

      Fourth, making a company more diverse on ANY axis makes it easier for other groups to get a reasonable standing and make progress on their own issues, because once we break the expectation that “everyone I work with is just like me” it becomes easier for other “different” people to move in – breaking an existing monoculture is a huge first step for all other groups.

      1. Aly_b*

        That’s actually not what I’m trying to do at all! I’m trying to hire, retain, and promote more women at my firm. However, if we’re implementing a brand new shiny policy or system around that initiative, I’d really like for it to be something that I personally can get behind, and I see literally zero reason not to do that.

  75. Lady Alys*

    Contract review in a law firm – how much of it is copy-editing, how much of it requires actual legal knowledge? (Coming from the perspective of someone who’s been a church admin for a while, doing a little bit of everything.)

    1. Fiennes*

      Unless things have radically changed in the decade-plus since I left the legal profession, contract review does require some legal know how.

  76. Broadcastlady*

    My co-worker is 15 years junior to me and asks me the same questions over and over again. We work in radio, and our hours only partially overlap, so most questions are usually via phone when I’m off work. I’ve gone to my boss (family business, he’s also a politician and is NEVER at work), and he just says he expects co-worker to look to me for guidance. I Don’t mind providing guidance, but I often get calls about something I explained earlier in detail (sometimes more than once), and its like he didn’t hear a word I said! It happened last night (twice, during dinner), and I answered with, “Do you remember what I told you to do when we discussed that this morning? And he said, “Yes, I just wanted to make sure.” I’ve read every AAM column I can find about this, and I’m not seeing the answer that might work for me. He’s 22, fresh out of school, no early onset dementia. I think he just needs hand holding, but I don’t have the patience for that, and telling him it’s his ball court, his decision and we trust his judgment hasn’t helped. I love my job, and will probably work here until I die, but how do I stop from strangling this kid? I need him to fly on his own. Boss isn’t going to help; anyone has some coping tools? Co-worker has been here eight months now.

    1. Snark*

      “Dweezil, I cannot endlessly confirm and reconfirm my guidance for you, and you calling me during dinner and in my personal time to hash over things we’ve already discussed isn’t sustainable for me. If you’re having trouble remembering the specifics of our verbal conversations, then you need to write the action items down, or we need to correspond via email so you have a written chain you can refer to. How would you like to handle this moving forward?”

      And then hold him to it. “Dweezil, I gave you some guidance on this for this morning, and the ball is in your court now. I have confidence that you can handle this on your own. Have a good night!”

      1. Broadcastlady*

        Thank you! Logically I know this, so why is saying it so hard for me?! Lol. I just have to have the conversation with him.

        1. Snark*

          I think the “no really dude, write it down” thing is an important piece. I’m personally not an auditory learner, but it took me a frustratingly long time to realize that no, I cannot just have conversations about stuff without taking notes if I actually want to remember anything.

          1. Emi.*

            Especially if he’s saying “I just need to make sure.”

            Or could you make a manual? When I worked in radio, the answer to pretty much every question I could have come up with was sitting in a binder somewhere in the studio, except for (only some cases of) “what piece should I play next?”

          2. Observer*

            Yes. In fact, when you tell him stuff check that he has written it down. If he is not taking notes while you are discussing it, tell him you expect to see an email recap of your conversation by the end of the day, and you expect him to consult that the next time he needs the information. It’s worth mentioning that if he does that, and you don’t respond with any changes he can “be sure” that this is what you want and you are not going to change your mind (and he can always prove it if you do).

            And then stop answering all of his calls.

      2. DC*

        Also, stop answering the phone during your off hours. When he asks the next day, just say “I wasn’t near my phone. Besides, that’s something we talked about yesterday before I left.” If he didn’t get something done due to you not answering while you are off the clock, that is his problem, not yours.

    2. nep*

      ‘We talked about that in detail earlier. Is there something we can do to help you retain the guidance I’m giving you?’ Maybe approach it like that to get him talking about why it’s not registering — perhaps not be the problem at all, in which case this could be an opening to talk about how he needs to be able to take the reins and move ahead without hand-holding — what’s getting in the way of that.

  77. beanie beans*

    I can’t decide if I should send a follow-up email to a company I interviewed with.

    Interview was Oct 26th and was a phone interview. Thought it went well, she said the process may be slow due to waiting on contracts related to the position. Said she’d run my resume by two managers and get back to me within a week about next steps (either an in-person interview or second phone interview).

    The following week she emailed me saying they’d had some more delays with the contract and would get back to me soon.

    Early last week I got asked to interview at a different company for a different position I had applied for. At the time of the first interview they had asked if I was interviewing anywhere else (if there were any competing timelines). I said no but I had other applications still out. So when I got this other interview I emailed her basically as a heads up since they had asked before and she emailed back saying thanks for letting them know, she would nudge the managers again.

    That was Monday the 13th and I haven’t heard anything. Should I email again next week as a follow-up or just let them contact me if or when they have more info? I don’t have an update on the second company – the interview went well but it could be a couple of weeks before I hear about a possible second interview there. I’d really prefer the position with the first company.

    1. Lalaith*

      Probably not, until/unless you have another change in your timeline, like another interview or offer. It sounds like this is just a really slow process for them.

      1. beanie beans*

        Thank you! I think I’m an over-communicator, so the silence makes me want to send emails even though I know either they’ve moved forward with someone else or the process is just going slow – neither of which would change based on me emailing them.

        Sometimes I just need that outside voice saying “Patience!”

  78. Fair Anon*

    I’m leaving my company in December. While I grew to dislike the organization more and more, I was always marked at least as a strong performer for my work. I took pride in my deliverables even though there was a lot of politics to navigate. This year I had enough, enough to take a demotion from management in order to get my foot in a much bigger organization.
    I received a copy of my background check that included ratings from my references. My current boss rated me “fair” in some areas. Not only do I disagree about the rating but it’s the first time they come up as potential issues. These things were never discussed in formal or informal feedback in the 2 years I worked with him and I always got glowing reviews for my work. Should I clarify those ratings with him and ask for examples? Should I tell him he did a poor job about providing me feedback? I might need to use him as a reference again in the future as he’s the only person who saw me work in a management-type position.

    1. Observer*

      You’re more likely to do harm than good. I’d be really surprised if you changed his opinion for the better, and he’s likely to get offended if you tell him he did a poor job.

      You’re lucky though – you know now what he’s saying about you. Make copies of every glowing review you got, especially from him. They could come in handy down the line.

  79. Stumblin' around*

    I have a follow up interview next week for a position that would be a serious career move for me and hoping that it becomes my long term career. I had an initial interview already and the feedback from my recruiter was great. The company thinks I’ve very articulate and know my information. But, one thing that always stumbles me in interviews is when the interviewer asks “What questions do you have for me?” I usually feel like they answer all my questions throughout the interview banter and then I’m left quiet with nothing to say. My recruiter has already warned me not to ask basic questions about the job description, company culture, etc since that has already been gone over with me. This position is in a commercial real estate office. Does anyone have any suggestions?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I just had a few interviews and the questions I asked the hiring managers were all ones I’d seen discussed on this site:
      – What do you like most about working here?
      – What would you change about working here? (This one got “ooh, good question”)
      – What do you see as the biggest challenges to this position?
      – What kind of performance/work product/accomplishments do you expect of someone in this position in the first year?

  80. Lovely turtle*

    Hello you all !

    I hope you can help me with a problem I am having.

    Question
    I need an objective eye to tell me whether my first real senior position was doomed from the start or if I screwed up.

    Context
    I am a (late) twenty-something with 5 years experience in Marketing. After 4 years as a Marketing Analyst, I was offered five months ago a Marketing Manager position in a 4 people start-up.

    I was told that the company was really striving and I would be accompanying this trend. So, I was really excited and at the beginning, I really loved the change and the culture there (everybody was really nice and the work-life balance much appreciated).

    Problem
    I felt quite quickly that there were communication problems between my boss and me that really made it difficult to perform well. In short, I did not know what she expected of me, and it was hard to ask and get an answer.
    I was also telecommuting 2 days a week, but my boss did so almost every day and was really not easily reachable, only for emergencies. In 4 months, I was in the same office as her only around 20 days (not consecutively of course). It meant that every time she was around, I had a huge list of things I needed her validation on, and it always too more time than anticipated. She did not really answer quickly to emails or company chats.

    Examples
    First it was little things, like doing a task and understanding after all that my boss had something else entirely in mind. Projects were launched without clear instructions, and then dropped because of other emergencies.

    It was not clear to me what level of autonomy I was allowed to show on a daily basis – for instance, although I was supposed to be in charge of Marketing, she would not let me send the newsletters without having me rewrite them several times so I did not feel confortable taking initiative on more sensitive topics.

    I also had to do a LOT of guesswork. For instance, she asked me to do a full strategic plan for the launching of a new brand, and then left for one month on holiday : the thing is, we only had talked about this project once, over my interview lunch, 5 months ago.

    In another instance, she told me 3 months AFTER I started that we had a 35% objective in sales for that year.

    What I tried
    I tried planning meetings, creating a shared calendar / to do list, implementing processes, sending recap emails but my boss never took to it and even told me she wouldn’t have the time to read them.

    After 3 months, she told me she thought I was doing a good job, but was waiting for more strategic planning on my part. So before she left for a month in August, I created strategic plans for the company, and although she didn’t seem enthusiastic, she said ok.

    After she came back from holidays, she had changed all our plans for the next few months. So I sent her an email asking for a meeting, telling her I had trouble completing my missions successfully because I lacked her input regarding the vision for the company, her expectations and her feedback on my work in order to properly plan strategically.

    The end
    When the meeting came (last Monday), she started by telling my that the trial period was not working out and that my contract would not be extented.

    Her analysis is that she can’t afford to keep me because in 4,5 months, I wasn’t able to increase our sales.
    She also admits that she is not good at delivering feedback but she thinks she doesn’t have time to lead someone and that I should have been able to work without her input on the three aspects I named. She said that a real marketer should have been able to see the big picture more clearly and work completely in autonomy.

    I felt I was given a challenge no one would be able to complete, especially under those circumstances, and that she probably shouldn’t have opened the position in the first place if the catch was that it was kept only if the sales started increasing right away.

    Was this position doomed from the start or did I screw up big time by not picking up on clues ? Did I conduct myself as a junior by asking too much lead and input? How can I make sure it doesn’t happen again in another job ?

    Thank you so much for your help !

    1. Allypopx*

      It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong persay, I think the position might have been a bad fit, especially for your first management position. They probably wanted someone with more experience, who would be able to do more autonomously.

      A lot of things you describe here sound like my boss (“I won’t have time to read this” “Come up with a plan for this concept we never discussed in detail” “Do this autonomously” “But also I have a lot of opinions on this specific thing, so redo it”)

      There is sort of an expectation in management positions that you’ll roll with all of that, meet expectations and goals, and work without much lead and input. Did I conduct myself as a junior by asking too much lead and input? No, you conducted yourself like it was your first management job. You needed more guidance than they were prepared to give. After six months of guidance you probably would’ve been in your stride and done great. But they wanted someone to come in and increase their sales, presumably taking things off their plates, not adding coaching to their existing workloads.

      That’s a fundamental mismatch, and it sounds like you and your boss had mismatched working styles. Maybe going into your next position you can make sure expectations are clearer from the outset. Ask interview questions like “what’s your management style” “how much autonomy is the person in this role expected to have?” “what goals are you trying to reach in the next year?” so you don’t find those things out in the thick of it. And maybe look at jobs that are more junior management level and less “head of marketing” so you can learn by doing and be more prepared to take that next step.

      I’m sorry you had a crappy experience, but hopefully you learned some stuff and can take it forward with you.

      1. Lovely turtle*

        Thank you, that is really helpful ! My boss did say to me that she felt we has missed each other and we did not part on bad terms, so your analysis of a bad fit is really spot on.

        I will definitely ask for the questions you mention in my next interviews. And as I am job searching right now, I am indeed looking more for “Marketing executive” jobs than “head of marketing”.

        I will definitely try to brush up my skills in order to become more self-sufficient quickly for the next job.

    2. WellRed*

      There is no way you can succeed in a position managed and not managed and micromanaged all at the same time. Was it at all a relief to be told it’s not working out?

        1. Lovely turtle*

          WellRed : to be honest, yes, I was relieved. I felt she was not satisfied with me because although she said yes to all my plans, she changed them afterwards, but it did take me a while to understand that, especially since she was neither frank, nor present at the office.
          I did felt it was not really working out and it was certainly frustrating.

          Allypox : do you have any advice to navigate this situation ? How do you manage to succeed and keep your cool with this level of micromanagement and yet expectation that you will not need to be guided / led ?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It looks to me like she wanted you to fail, as it served her in some manner. You probably got caught in the cross fire between her and her boss. I think that this had very little to do with you and very much to do with some internal struggle that was going on before you got there.

  81. Peaches*

    I have kind of a weird question. Last week, a co-worker didn’t show up to work, no call or anything. The next morning he still hadn’t shown or called. I don’t work in his department but I overheard his manager and co-workers saying they called to do a wellness check on him and tried calling his cell and his emergency contact to no response. They then tried to find him and the emergency contact on social media (Facebook & LinkedIn) to contact them both. They were also asking if anybody knew where his emergency contact worked so they could contact the company to get a hold of that person. The guy finally called in the early afternoon saying he got a new number and has been sick, thinking he had texted his boss to let him know (it was the office number though, no text capabilities). Since he’s alright, I now can’t help but feel like his boss overstepped a privacy boundary. Is it OK to call someone else’s place of employment to try and get a hold of an emergency contact? Or to search for them on social media, especially when they don’t work for the company?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It sounds like they were genuinely concerned that something may have happened and the employee may have been injured, sick, or needed help. If the boss was coming from an angle of wanting to catch the employee in a lie then it would be overboard. If the emergency contact was the only way to connect, I probably would have done the same thing.

      1. Peaches*

        I guess my main concern here is that they called him, then the emergency contact, then the police for a wellness check. I feel after that, there’s not much else that you can do. But the manager then went onto social media and contacted the guy and emergency contact and was in the process of trying to find the contact’s work when he heard back. I think after the police, he should have stopped not started cyberstalking people who don’t work for him. Am I wrong? I do understand he’s coming from a place of concern but I don’t think he should have searched a 3rd party’s Facebook and LinkedIn for his employee.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          I think that if the person was listed as an emergency contact, it’s OK to try to track him down using publicly available sources.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Since that info is available people can and do use it. The boss was using public information. And it seems like the boss was actually worried. I’d give him a pass this time. And I would make sure my contact info was up to date with him.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      I think it’s okay. Primarily because my first thought was of a comment I once saw on here from someone whose colleagues found them at home after a heart attack.

    4. Artemesia*

      Every wellness check I have been a party to has had a disastrous outcome, so I will not fault people who follow up on a no show employee especially one who is otherwise pretty reliable. It could be a lifesaving exercise.

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      I didn’t see in your story that the police did a wellness check and reported finding the sick employee. If that’s the case they probably overstepped but it just sounds like they tried hard to find a guy they were truly concerned about.

  82. Petty comments from older employee*

    A new position opened up in my department and I was encouraged to apply. Earlier this week I heard a woman who sits right by me on the phone with someone and was telling them to apply for that same job so I wouldn’t get it. She was saying how she didn’t want me to get it because I am “like 24 or 25 and just out of college”. She then went on and on about how I’m unqualified for my current job as well because of my age. I definitely am NOT unqualified for my current job.I actually took a pay cut coming here and am the lowest paid in my department.

    I don’t work at all with her so I don’t know what she thinks I do in this job that I am unqualified for. She also never interviewed me and has neve seen my resume. This new position would also have 0% interaction with her so I don’t see why she cares.

    This woman is in her sixties and her supervisor is 25 years younger than her which I know really bothers her and she is constantly making comments on it.

    I am also not just out of college. I have my masters and graduated college 5 years ago. I look young for my age so maybe she thinks I graduated college when I finished grad school?

    Would you have said anything to her if you heard this? I get the sense she hates any employees under the age of 40 and doesn’t respect them. I always hear her trying to sabotage the younger employees

    1. Look What You Made Me Do*

      If you don’t really have to interact with her and you know that this is just her attitude, I probably wouldn’t say anything to her about it. Sure, it’s annoying, but she can’t actually control whether you get the new position or not. If she says something to you directly, then I would correct her. “Actually, I have my Master’s.” “I’ve been working in this field for X years.” Ultimately though, if she has a hang-up about younger people advancing further than her there won’t be much you can do to change it. Just make it awkward for her to make comments to you about it.

    2. DC*

      Her trying to sabotage younger employees is also not okay. If it’s in front of clients or customers it can be a real detriment to your company. You may want to mention it to a supervisor in passing. Or correct her about them as well when you hear her do it.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Yes. If she’s being this blatant about associating your age with your “apparent” lack of qualifications, that’s worth bringing to HR.

          Frankly, I wouldn’t have been able to stop myself saying something to her about openly trying to talk someone else into sabotaging my chance at a new position. “Do you know that I can hear you? If you have a problem with my work or my age, we can address it with your supervisor.” Accompanied by as much of a cold expression and flat voice as I can muster.

          1. Petty comments from older employee*

            Ugh, I know. In the days since this happened I keep thinking about this and wishing I had said something in the moment or at least turned around and just stared at her so she would be embarrassed that I heard.

            Another thing I forgot to mention is that even if I got this position, she would still have a higher position than me so it’s not like I am rising above her.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You could report what you are hearing.

      I guess I would just have said, “I am sorry that something happened to you that causes you to think so little of younger people.” You might find it helpful to think of those types of remarks as the person protecting themselves from something. This is actually all about her and her vulnerability- real or imagined.

  83. Jane Dawn*

    I’ve been at my new job for a month. My boss informed me that she likes my work, but I’m too slow to the point where I’ll lose my job if I don’t speed up. I am too slow with every aspect of the job.

    A friend suggested I start looking for a new job just in case. If I do get hired elsewhere, is it better to accept that job or wait it out at my current job? My original plan was not to look at all and spend at least a few years here. My boss asked me if I was sure I wanted to be here and I said yes, so I wouldn’t want to leave shortly after saying that… But I don’t want to end up jobless either.

    1. Hard Pass*

      It’s completely fair to start looking, no matter what you said in the moment. Don’t be caught flat footed!

      Look for a new position but if you don’t get one, hopefully you’ve sped up enough at work that they wouldn’t fire you anyway.

    2. Peaches*

      Could you ask for help in learning how to do tasks faster? And how slow is she saying you’re being? Like are you taking 2 days to respond to an email or are you holding up projects for weeks at a time? I guess the biggest thing here is learning how time sensitive your tasks are. Asking your boss for help would be my first step.

      1. Jane Dawn*

        Her specific words were “I think you’re slow as heck,” but said in a friendly way… if that makes sense. She then said “it shouldn’t take you 10 minutes to do X task,” which I assume was an exaggeration because the task usually takes me 5 minutes. No one is inconvenienced, but she expects my workload to increase soon and wants me to be up to speed before then.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Are you going to be able to speed up? Ask your boss for tips to help you get moving faster. Keeping a current resume and an eye out for a better job is a good thing to do. But are you giving the current job the effort that it deserves?

      1. Jane Dawn*

        I’m giving it my all, but I don’t know that I can do what she asks. Most people I’ve worked with have said I’m slow. I have started speeding up at my new job, but the increased speed causes me to make mistakes and forget things. I’m just not a fast thinker, I guess.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      If your boss asked if you were sure if you wanted to be there, I’d start applying everywhere. That’s a huge red flag to me.

      1. Artemesia*

        Absolutely. This is a giant warning. But also see if you can get some organizational tips from people more expert at this job. Speed is sometimes a function of having systems in place to take shortcuts, or expedite processes. Maybe there are some tips you could incorporate to get things moving faster.

        1. Jane Dawn*

          I thought it was weird but didn’t realize it was a red flag. Any insight as to why she asked that?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            You don’t seem comfortable in the job, at least to her.

            Supervisors get used to watching people adapt to a new job. Once they have supervised for a while they can kind of see who will catch on and who won’t. There are common patterns with people who are going to catch on.

            I am laughing, I know this first hand, and YET…. when I started this job I have now I thought I would never, ever catch on. Too many variations, too many exceptions and then the exceptions had exceptions. OMG, I will never get this. I said to my good boss, “I will never get this!” She laughed. She said, “Yes you will. You already are.” She could see enough from where she was sitting to realize that I had gotten a handle on a couple things and more would fall into place in a bit. Then I realized, I had said the very same thing to people I had trained and supervised. So I knew, just hang on.

            Many people use “liking the job” as their go-to for figuring out what is going awry. I think it’s lame. I think that “liking the job” is a catch all. It could be that you need more training, it could be that you just need someone to coach you for a morning. It could be that the job is just not for you.

            I had a family member who worked in optics. Her subordinate just could not catch on and did everything slowly. Wisely, my family member sat down with the subordinate and went over the job with her. She talked about this is a “science” type of job with lots of numbers. The subordinate admitted she was never strong in science subjects and she did better with reading or creating type work. They pieced together that the subordinate needed to leave to find something that was more toward her natural abilities. While upset about being fired, the subordinate thanked my family member profusely for taking the time to explain what went wrong.

            It could be that you are forcing yourself into a job that is really not one of your natural abilities. Hence, the boss asked, “do you like the job?”.

            1. Jane Dawn*

              That makes so much sense, thanks for explaining! It also puts into context other things my boss has said like “Are you feeling overwhelmed with this position?” I was incredibly confused on that because I don’t feel overwhelmed at all and consider the job to be relatively easy, but she might be seeing something I’m not.

  84. Should I join the coup?*

    My org has a great mission and mostly great middle and even senior management. But the VP is a tyrant. I’ve been here 3 years and all of the director level managers who report to her have changed. Before my tenure, it was a constant manager turnover as well. She gives new meaning to the term micro-managing. She’s constantly looking at calendars, checking people’s math, etc. I could go on.

    People have had enough and there is a revolution brewing. A bunch of the managers have banded together and want to essentially demand from the President that the VP be fired.

    On the one hand, I’ve lost hope in this place under her leadership and have nothing to lose (and have been actively looking for jobs elsewhere). On the other hand, I’m the most junior of the managers involved, and the President and VP have worked together forever and are kind of codependent. But I ultimately think the fate of the organization (and the people we serve) depends on the VP leaving.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Others may want to chime in, but I’d be wary of this if they are that close and have worked together that long. Since they have that more or less suggests the President is ok/knows about the VPs style and approves of it – to band together and complain puts a target on your backs, however that manifests (especially if it is more work scrutiny!)

      If it were me I would keep my head down and keep looking to get out.

  85. Bugproof*

    This week has been so absurdly complicated emotionally. After some casually somewhat racist comments my boss made in a press release I have been feeling extremely tokenized and undervalued. I’m the only POC in a staff of twenty and my job has become increasingly more admin work than I signed up for. We work with teapot freelancers, designers, etc. and boss has consistently picked 90%+ white people, mostly white men, to work with us. Don’t get me wrong, admin work is important and so essential, but it’s not even organizational or high level work I’m doing – just data entry, redirecting phone calls, and opening mail. Nothing with room for growth.

    This morning I found out I won a (very) small amount of money from a fund that celebrates upcoming teapot designers. It’s the second I’ve won this year. I am surprised and happy and extremely righteous and proud.

    I’m job searching, but hoping that these awards will at least put me on the track out of admin if I don’t find anything immediately. Wish me luck? And advice?

    2. Anon for this*

      Ugh, this situation sucks. I have to respond even though it’s late. I am not a POC (I’m a white, cis, straight female) but recently left a company that had pretty much no diversity, which I find perplexing given the large diverse city we are in and how socially liberal most of the company’s 60-70 employees are. They have maybe 3-4 POC and the only black employee they had was downsized in a layoff about a year ago. I think it has to do with casual racism and upper management not doing enough to make sure they’re pulling in a diverse pool of candidates. Room to improve (especially with regard to female and POC engineers) I’m sure because it’s stem-related (I’m a creative and not an engineer myself).

      My new company is much larger and so much more diverse that I immediately felt happier and proud of its inclusiveness.

      Congrats on the awards! That is amazing and you should definitely showcase those on your resume. Beef up everything you’ve done that’s not strictly admin and work like heck to move on to the next job that won’t relegate you to admin-only if that’s not what you agreed to (former admin myself and I respect career admin but that’s when they choose that path—someone shouldn’t have it chosen for them and for darned sure not because of their race!).

      If you’ve already been recognized twice like that you deserve and WILL find a much better fit. Sending you all the positive vibes.

      1. Anon for this*

        Not sure how but my comment ended up out of order. The “Room to improve (especially with regard to female and POC engineers) I’m sure because it’s stem-related (I’m a creative and not an engineer myself).” bit should appear after “My new company” line.

  86. Hard Pass*

    Very frustrating interactions this week.

    We’ve merged with a company. We’re both very small, so only about 30 people total now. They’re going to be the dominate side though. Our executives left; theirs stayed. This means their side automatically become in charge. So our directors are now under their directors (me). Not a big deal, to me, because we’re still working for the same goals.

    The directors on their end are flying in one every week for the next … forever, I guess. One flew in this week and he is the worst!! I went to him his second day and said, “Hey, I’m doing XYZ. If you want something from your department included, just let me know.”

    So he goes on this long winded explanation that if he wants something included, he’ll let the director, my boss, on his end know and that person can choose to tell me. When I corrected him and said that my boss is completely unfamiliar with what I’m doing as we have different products and pipelines and are completely separate at this point still, and every other director is sending it right to me, he went on and on about proper channels. Something about how other people might get mad if they see him sending me stuff and want to send me stuff too. Even when I pointed out that they already ARE sending me stuff–because I’ve asked them to–he just kept insisting he’d go through my boss. Ok, fine, I don’t care if your stuff isn’t included, honestly.

    But then he’s just called me now that he’s back in his office to let me know if I ever need anything from his department to let him know. And then after talking for another 5 minutes because he’s so darn long-winded, he ended up heavily emphasizing he shouldn’t be called and all contact should go through my boss, the director on his end.

    Sir, I do not like you.

    2. Artemesia*

      And when his stuff doesn’t get included, you sweetly say ‘My boss didn’t pass anything along, you’ll need to talk to him.’ And then your boss will say ‘we always send it directly to Hard Pass didn’t she tell you that?’ (you will have given him or her a heads up if he complains to you. What a maroon.

  87. Can't Sit Still*

    I work for a llama herding company. I have a co-worker, Jane, who’s a bit of a crank. Jane thinks llama herding is awful and says all kinds of horrible things about it and llama herding companies all the time. However, she does seem to approve of our company’s style of llama herding.

    Jane is a peer in another department and we are not in management. Everyone is very familiar with Jane’s views. She sat next to me at a company-wide meeting recently and I had to listen to her ranting whispers about the evils of llama herding throughout the entire meeting. Is an employee like Jane ever a liability for a company?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Well yeah, she’s bad for morale. Plus, what if a client overheard her? I’m side-eyeing the management if they know about this and haven’t at least pulled her in for a chat.

    2. Observer*

      If you mean legally, I’d guess not – but I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t pretend to be one.

      If you mean in the general sense? Of course she is. Anyone who can’t stop carrying on about the evils of the field their employer is in, is a liability. Who is going to want to talk to her, much less work with her?

  88. Lalaith*

    I’d just like to grumble about non-communicativeness. I found a job posting that I wanted to apply to on LinkedIn, and noticed that a former coworker now works at that company. So I sent him a message asking if we could talk about it. Now, we haven’t spoken for a few years, but it still never occurred to me that he wouldn’t reply at all (I’ve done the same for 2 other former coworkers, and they both responded pretty quickly)… but he didn’t. A few days later, I submitted my application for the job, and sent Former Coworker another message saying that I had, and I’d appreciate if he’d put in a good word for me. Still no reply. And LinkedIn messaging will indicate when the other person has read your message, which he has.

    Nevertheless, a few days later I got an email from someone else at the company wanting to set up a phone interview. I replied later the same day with one specific possible time, and other times I’m available. No reply. The time I suggested came and went (yesterday), so I sent one more follow-up email with more availability. And still I wait. I know not to follow up again – the ball’s in her court now, but it’s so frustrating to be blown off. Argh.

  89. 2 Cents*

    How do you deal with coworkers you can’t stand, but must work closely / frequently with?

    Coworker A, who’s a relatively new member of my team (and to the working world), is an overly confident mansplainer. As in, he asked me if I needed a tutorial on a job function that I’ve been doing for 4 years and wrote an article on. (He saw the article, didn’t realize I wrote it, then asked me if I needed a tutorial on it. Not even joking.) He’s near-universally disliked around here because he walks around like he’s God’s gift to civilization.

    Before you say I’m probably overreacting, I know I am. I’m pregnant, my hormones are a mess, I’ve been sick since Week 1, and I have very little patience to put up with nonsense. Normally, I’d just start a job search (since I’ve started to dread work every morning, in part, because of him), but I can’t leave my company because I’d like to use the (unusually generous) maternity leave benefits. All suggestions welcome!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Have you ever sat in public somewhere, and some kid start screaming? Or someone has a really annoying laugh? Or someone nearby is talking overly loudly on a cell phone?

      I treat my annoying coworker’s annoyances like them: part of the background noise. I mentally translate all his aggravating BS into the squawking of that bird that lives outside my window and wakes me up every morning, and then tune it right out. Just filter every awful thing that’s said through an internal translator into a language I don’t know and pretend it never happened.

      This dude is just not worth this much energy. He’s just one sad speck in a world full of much more interesting things.

      1. rosiebyanyothername*

        Wow, that is… actually really good advice. I have a similar mansplainer lurking around my office.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      He saw the article, didn’t realize I wrote it, then asked me if I needed a tutorial on it. Not even joking.

      With an icy stare, “You do realize I wrote that article?” From that point onword, cut him zero slack. Call him out on every thing, every time.

      1. 2 Cents*

        Oh, I do. He’s the kind of person who would dispute that the sky is, in fact, blue. And trust me, everyone in our little cube section heard me call him out, “You know I wrote that article, right? And it’s a basic job function for something I’ve been doing for 4 years. I think I’m good [extreme sarcasm].” My problem is he sits next to me, he’s on the same team as me (I’m a more senior member, but do not have (or want) managing duties), and our half-cube walls mean I see way too much of him all the time. Basically, I want to punch him in the face far too many times a day.

    3. Emi.*

      Before you say I’m probably overreacting, I know I am. … I have very little patience to put up with nonsense.

      That sounds like an appropriate reaction, actually.

    4. Artemesia*

      You MUST see the humor in this. You have just experienced the archetypal mansplaining event i.e. the man explains an article to the woman who wrote it. It was this precise incident that lead to the coining of the term.

      So retreat into your inner jolly room and laugh and laugh and laugh inside when he pulls this crap. I hope you said ‘Did you notice that I wrote the article you are suggesting I do a tutorial on?’ Said blandly. Practice your bland responses. Enjoy your maternity benefits which are rare and when you get back, practice your bland responses some more while laughing inside and if it is still unbearable start the job search then.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I would be so tempted to accept the tutorial, thank him profusely, tell him how interested the subject matter is to me, and then end by asking, “Wow, who’s the author of this article? I’d love to follow up for more information!’

  90. Doreen*

    My husband’s company has a new holiday vacation policy that makes no sense to us, and I was wondering if anyone here might have an idea about a reason for it. They have designated two weeks (the weeks beginning Dec 18 and 25) as holiday weeks and it is mandatory that each employee take one of those weeks off. If an employee has no PTO, the time will be unpaid. The company is only closed on Christmas Day – it will operate normally on the other days. There is not normally a drastic drop in sales volume those two weeks, and if it drops this year it will be because half of the salespeople will be on vacation each week. I’m inclined to believe there is some sort of miscommunication – (maybe the intent was to let people know they were limited to only one of those weeks and remind them that PTO will not roll over to 2018 or something like that) but it is of course possible that there is a reason we just aren’t seeing.

    1. Can't Sit Still*

      The only thing I can think of is that they are forcing their employees to take PTO at a time that is convenient for the company. That’s actually not that uncommon, if somewhat annoying for the employees, especially if they are springing it on them now, instead of letting them know it will be the policy for next year.

    3. Elizabeth*

      Sometimes companies do that when they are having an audit to make sure that people can’t cover things up.

  91. HisGirlFriday*

    I have a job interview on Wednesday — I’m sad and excited and nervous!

    I’m nervous because well, Job Interview.

    I’m excited because Great New Opportunity.

    I’m sad because I don’t really want to leave my job — I’m good at it, I love it, I get above-the-average reviews every year*, I have been told consistently by our members (I work for an Association of Llama Trainers) that I am the single greatest asset at the association.

    BUT — in the immortal wise words of Alison, My Boss Sucks and Isn’t Going To Change. I’ve been here four years, and it’s gotten worse. My boss is a petty, micro-managing tyrant who can’t see the forest for the trees, who focuses on the insane details rather than the actual issues. If my job were the Titantic, she’d be rearranging deck chairs while the life boats hung idle.

    *My reviews by the Board of Directors are stellar and above-average. My boss routinely torpedoes me and then the Board corrects her.

  92. Entry level office worker!*

    I have a fantastic relationship with my supervisor, who very outspokenly is excited for leaving our workplace this summer. Can I tell him I want to job hunt too so I can have his reference? Is this something that’s done? I suspect he’ll be very loyal to me, but as the 2 core team members, does he have an obligation to tell my boss? Is it weird to have everyone know you’re job searching?
    This is not a place where I would be pushed out. They need me to run the project ;)

      1. A Nonny Mousse*

        Leaving me out of things that I should be in on. Not sending me forms I needed to complete then calling me telling me I needed to turn them in ASAP, and that they were sent to me (no, they weren’t – I know the forms and I got them last year but not this year). Inviting everyone in my department and people I work near to functions and not inviting me.

    2. A Non E. Mouse*

      So there’s another way you can approach this: Involve IT.

      Go to IT (preferably via email), and say “So-and-so says they have sent me stuff, but I can’t find it in my email. Can you help me see if it’s going to Junk/Trash?” and copy the coworker on it, asking “Hey, Coworker, could you show IT the emails about X, Y and Z that you sent me that didn’t make it to my inbox, so we can figure this out?”

  94. Jujubes*

    I have a question for those who currently work in human resources: what type of educational background is required to get hired into an HR role? I have an undergraduate degree in the social sciences and a graduate degree in educational administration. My entire work history is in higher education in a variety of functional areas (mostly programming/event planning, admissions recruitment, and academic advising). Even when I was starting my post-graduate job search, I had thought about potentially making a career shift into HR at some point.

    Now if I were to make a career shift, it would be several years down the road from now. I’m working on finding ways to get more supervisory experience in my current role (which is something my supervisor supports, and working in higher ed it’s relatively easy to get experience at least supervising students). However I came across a graduate certificate program in Human Resources offered at a local university (not the one that I currently work for, and unfortunately I’m not eligible for tuition assistance at the moment. This option would likely be more affordable than pursuing something at my current institution). Would this be worthwhile to pursue, or is getting an MBA or a graduate degree in HR essential? Along these same lines, are there other skills I should try to seek out in my current role that would help a future transition into HR?

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      This is solely my experience, so YMMV, but I was a teacher and stumbled into an HR position in a small company. Honestly, the only reason I was hired as a manager is because I knew the guy who runs the company. My title is HR Manager but because I’m the sole HR person in the company, about 90% of my work is generalist-level work. The bulk of what I do I was able to easily pick up without any specific training. I have had to educate myself on the legal aspects as they’ve arisen (ie, how to investigate a sexual harassment claim), but that’s about it.

      As I’m currently looking for a new position, I’ve found that most postings are not super specific about the degree (most bachelor’s degrees will suffice), but it’s your level of experience that will dictate what type of position you might be qualified for. The majority of manager positions are looking for someone with 5-7 years of experience, regardless of what your degree is in. All of this to say, I’m not sure that going back to school is really going to be worth the time & money. I’d considered going back to school, but decided to sign up for the PHR credentialing exam. That’s way quicker and cheaper than getting a degree that I’m not sure will do me any good.

      Like I said, this is just from my own limited experience, so I’ll be interested to hear what other people’s take on it is.

      1. Jujubes*

        Thank you for your input! I’m willing to go back to school for additional coursework/certification, but the thought of doing an entirely new degree (either bachelors or masters) is not appealing to me right now for many of the same reasons that you expressed.

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        I’m not too far into the workforce, but have sort of an HR-adjacent role as so several other individuals in my office. We’re federal, and are in positions where among other things, we review personnel packages and work with HR to ensure that new/renewing/transitioning out individuals are set up in the correct systems, have all of their pay/badging information straight, and (for new administrative staff) are trained properly to do their jobs. My office is also involved in process improvement and attempts to work with some interpersonal conflicts before escalating to our Employee Relations department. My education is in public health, which is in line with the agency’s mission, but I don’t have any formal HR training or certifications.

        Not sure if working for the government would enchant you, but there are Administrative Officer roles within that which don’t require a specific type of educational background. I know one of these folks who used to teach, then manage people in a non-profit, and another who came from private industry whose education is in business. I imagine there are similar pseudo-HR or HR-adjacent positions that have similarly generic education requirements out in the regular world (not gov’t) as well. Good luck!

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      So forgive me if this ends up being a double-post. My response seems to have disappeared into the ether.

      Anyway, I transitioned into HR from teaching. I was hired on at a small company, mainly because I’ve known the owner for a really long time, and he gave me a chance. My title is HR manager, but 90% of what I do is generalist-level work because I’m the only person in HR. The vast majority of the work I’m doing I’ve been able to pick up without any real effort as it seems mostly like common sense to me (although it may be because it feels like there is a lot of overlap between teaching and HR). I’ve had to research a few legal type things that have come up (wage & benefit issues, sexual harassment), but that’s about it.

      I’m also job searching, and have found that the majority of positions don’t seem to be too concerned about the type of degree earned, just that the candidates have a bachelors degree. Experience is what determines if you’ll be hired in at the manager level or generalist level. Most HR manager positions I’ve seen are looking for someone with at least 5 years of direct HR experience.

      All that to say that I’ve decided to get the PHR credential as opposed to spending the time & money on another degree. I just don’t see the value in getting the degree if I’m going to still be in the running for the same level of position. Now obviously, this is solely my opinion, so YMMV, and I’m interested to hear what other people have to say.

  95. Red*

    My boss has been trying to keep us from using PTO (or at least from requesting it with less than a month and a half of notice) sporadically for most of the year. Now, I understand we’re really short staffed, but I also understand the vast majority of my pto is used up for doctors appointments that I can’t schedule after hours. This is literally impacting my health. She says she’s going to try to hire a new person at the start of next year, but the hiring process is quite long here and she hasn’t posted the position yet. Is there anything I can do in this situation, besides decide to either suck it up or leave?

    1. WellRed*

      Alison has scripts for this, I believe. Can you sit down with her and say “I will always make my request as far in advance as possible, but sometimes it isn’t something I can do. Is there something else you would like me to do ti ensure I can use my PTO which is part of my compensation package?”

  96. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    So I know this is generally a no-go for cover letters for actual jobs, but is it okay to have a brief paragraph talking about my goals for a grad internship, or do cover letters for internships follow the same rules as cover letters for jobs?

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      As someone “hiring” grad students for field studies/practicums, I want to know what the students’ goals are so that I can ensure that the work I have for them aligns with what they want to get out of it. That’s for credit, though, not pay. I don’t know if my answer would differ if we were talking about a paid internship.

  97. Angstastasia*

    Another holiday gift question. When I began supervising a relatively small team a few years ago (8-9 people), I traditionally gave them all a holiday card and small gift (think mini box of chocolates or little notepad) as a gesture of appreciation. I’d also bring a big tin of cookies for the rest of the department (50-plus folks). This year I still supervise that team, but also manage the entire department. The tin of cookies will be back, but should I stop giving the individual gifts to my direct reports? Just give them the cards? Drop the idea entirely? A complicating factor is that although I was promoted, money is far tighter for me this year than last because of a loss of my spouse’s income, so even if I gave my team individual gifts they’d have to be pretty cheap. Also, I don’t think the other supervisors on my team give gifts to their reports.

    (This is one of those ridiculous things that I’m sure I’m being silly about but have spent WAY too much time considering the past few weeks.)

    1. Amber Rose*

      If money is tight, maybe just verbal or email acknowledgments for people? E-cards?
      I know that people disagree with me, but I kind of hate cards. They waste paper, and three seconds after you get them they go in the nearest recycling bin. It’s like throwing cash in the garbage.

      I’m sure the cookies will be appreciated far more.

    2. Artemesia*

      I would vary things a little. Instead of the tin of cookies, some sort of display or spread that is fancy but different and then drop individual gifts. Put the gift money into something a bit more lavish for everyone. I think cards if by that you mean written comments about their work and your appreciation are important — it might be too much to do everyone — but if you know them well enough I’d do that. It isn’t the ‘card’ — it is the personal message of appreciation that is valued.

  98. LinkedIn Luddite*

    Anyone have advice about the best way to use LinkedIn to help find a job? I’ve been in my position (in a fairly niche industry) for 11 years, and I’m not a social media user at all. I created a LinkedIn account mostly to allow recruiters to find me, but I’m not sure of the best way to go about it. Do I need a bunch of connections, or is there a better way to increase my visibility to recruiters in my field?

    Thanks for any help you can give me!

    1. 2 Cents*

      I found that joining open groups in the areas I was interested in lead recruiters to contacting me. Like, if I wanted to be in Publishing, I’d join a Publishing Group (or 5). And if a recruiter messaged me, if I wasn’t interested in the position, I’d reply, and let them know what I was looking for. Never found a FT role this way, but have received freelance work through this method.

  99. Amber Rose*

    So, some time ago I mentioned telling an person that a coworker of mine is mute when he isn’t, because I knew he wouldn’t respond to questions. At the time a lot of people were saying we should do more to accommodate what sounds like a pretty bad anxiety disorder, but quite frankly, this guy just proved that if your anxiety is that bad, there aren’t any reasonable accommodations. It’s not reasonable to refuse to communicate. He made everyone uncomfortable, and nobody is really that sad that he finally quit. I feel bad for him, but he was just so difficult to work with.

    Now we have to hire someone again. And the resumes are even worse than last time. I’m thinking that everyone and their envelope stuffing jobs are putting degrees as requirements just to get people who will put their own name on their applications.

    1. Julianne*

      I’m facing a similar problem with an individual at work right now – there are some trauma/mental health issues in play, and we are trying to establish both reasonable accommodations and reasonable expectations. It’s challenging, because of course we want to provide accommodations to help this individual succeed, but we’re rapidly approaching the end of the road (because letting someone get away with do nothing all day, every day isn’t a reasonable accommodation).

  100. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    I found a new job! I’ve accepted the offer, and am pending background check. I plan to give notice in December. And then it starts getting crazy.

    At current job, my department is made up of 4 teams. On my team, there are 2, maybe 3 people with a particular subset of knowledge and experience. There is a project that I am working on with a coworker (the other person I’m sure has that knowledge). This project is an annual one, high profile, sensitive, the whole bit. You HAVE to have this subset of knowledge and a fairly high level of experience to do this project. The project is new to my team, one of the other teams has done it in the past but they don’t have capacity right now to do it.

    My coworker told me yesterday that he is leaving at the end of the month. Mgmt doesn’t know yet that I’m leaving, so they’re planning that I’ll take over the project. 3rd coworker who might have this knowledge is not a good choice to lead the project due to logistics, but beyond that she’s already got a full plate. The only other people who CAN do this project are on the other team, and are already fully loaded.

    In addition to this, I’m the expert on an area that is high risk, and they don’t have anyone capable of filling my role there. They’ve got some people who will be capable in a few years, but not yet. And that’s assuming they stick around.

    And, I’m the person in charge of our software. Day to day admin, etc. My backup isn’t ready to take the lead role, so I texted her last night to give her a heads up. She’s also looking for a new job.

    Is it wrong of me to be enjoying the havoc that my departure is going to cause? Cause right now, I’m enjoying it. While all this is going on, my manager (who is the reason I’m leaving) is continuing to behave as if I’m untrustworthy and incompetent.

    1. Artemesia*

      I wish you tidings of schadenfreude and joy, schadenfreude and joy la la la
      for the holidays season. This is the consequence of management promoting and supporting bad managers. They should experience the pain they have been dishing out.

    2. Rainy*

      If enjoying it is wrong, I don’t think I’d want to be right.

      I left a job once where I was thoroughly underappreciated and underpaid, and after I left my replacement lasted less than six weeks and quit in the middle of the day via a post-it note stuck to the desk. It took them almost two years to find someone who’d stay more than 2 months in that hellish atmosphere. I enjoyed the living heck out of it.

    3. NoodleMara*

      I’m in this boat right now. While I haven’t secured a job yet, I’m searching hard and gotten some excellent interviews. I’m in a “entry level” position but they have made me into the project person and put some really high level projects on my plate with no increase in salary. Bonus are paid in about a month and I plan to be out of here within three.

      There have been layoffs and everyone is pissy and I can’t wait until I leave and screw them a bit. Probably not as much as you are but I think they’d have trouble replacing me.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Overall, it’s not a bad place to work. I like the work and the coworkers. Most of management is decent. But of course, I report to the woman who really shouldn’t be in a mgmt position.

      There’s a couple other people who have really been suffering the same things as me and coworker. I really hope they’re looking around too.

    5. Windchime*

      It’s not wrong. It’s extremely satisfying to see karma at work. My old team of about 12 people has lost 7 or 8 people since I left a year ago. They are operating on a shoestring and several of their remaining employees are searching for new jobs. Also, the big risky strategy that my old director recommended (and the company followed) is failing and the sites that were opened are closing.

      So yeah. It makes me want to lean back in my chair and puff on my cigar, and I don’t even smoke.

  101. AJ*

    Has anybody ever been asked to come in for a 2-day onsite interview? Just wondering if this seems reasonable or not… I have been interviewing with a tech company that wants me to come in for what they call a “sprint”, where I would work alongside the team on a small project. I actually like the idea of getting to experience what the job and team would be like, and I feel like this would give me an advantage over the normal interview process (which is often difficult for me). But 2 full days?? I can’t afford to take 2 days off my current job– I don’t get vacation/holidays as a temp– and its hard enough to make up all the lost hours around the holidays. They offered some compensation, but it is unclear yet how much that would be. Personally I don’t like the idea of having to be compensated for an interview. I have already completed 2 shorter phone interviews, a take home assignment that took the entire weekend, and an hour panel interview over video. So far I like what I’ve learned about the company, team, and position– I don’t see any red flags or problems.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      If you’re really interested, I would just be honest with them that taking the full 2 days would create a hardship for you, and that you’d need to know all the specifics about pay before you could make a decision on giving up your wages. I think this is something most companies would be really understanding of; after all, they are reasonable enough to pay you to have what is probably the best possible interview scenario for both sides: seeing what working for the company is really like. It’s really understandable if you can’t give up two days wages, though, and I think they’ll probably be happy to give you the info and accommodation you need.

  102. Pickle Lily*

    Can anybody recommend some good / easy to understand Project Management books or reading materials? Particularly focusing on financial management, contracts and good governance. I’m based in the UK, but same I expect that the general principles are the same wherever.

    I recently started a new Project Management role, which is basically the same as my old role, so I’m comfortable with that, plus finance, contractual and governance responsibilities. I’d like to find some bedtime reading for over the Christmas period.

  103. DayVee*

    AAAAAARRRRTRRRTGH.

    Spent the morning of my day off glued to my phone trying to deal with work stuff because others can’t get it together. Now I have a headache.

    Can anybody explain the rationale for kicking off a project with massive dependencies on an external party, setting a deadline without a defined scope, and then telling the team to just work ahead?

    If I get one more “You’re a great team! You can do this!” pep talk I might perform some variety of career-limiting move. The problem is not the project team!!!!

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      If you find that rationale could you please share with the class because I’d like to know how to manage this too!

      Other Half had this problem on a major contract this year including being shipped overseas for a week to a client site where the databases he was supposed to be using hadn’t even been built yet on that side and everyone was expecting him to, I dunno, turn water into wine or something. I believe he got a similar pep talk before going.

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          *side eye*

          Do we work at the same place? Because that phrasing is plastered over everything and trotted out repeatedly at my work. Its the only place I have worked that has made such a big deal out of people talking to others outside their team while concurrently completely missing the point of Agile practices and its meaning in the wider business world right now (re: software development). That or a bad management fad has really been oversold!

        2. Windchime*

          “Work agile” really means, “figure out how to get all this impossible sh*t done in half the time, because….agile!”. Hate it (or at least the way I’ve seen it implemented).

  104. CleverGirl*

    After finishing grad school I decided I wanted to leave academia, but still ended up in grant-funded, semi-researchy positions. My first job was a 2-year grant, although I left after 1.5 years when I got a much better offer with significantly higher pay. I’ve been at my current job for a year and there are 2 years left on the grant, but I’m thinking about starting the job search soon because I don’t know how long it will take to find a new job and I’m not super happy in my current position anyway. Is there an exception to the job hopping “rule” if you’re working in grant-funded positions that have an expiration date? And is there a way to make this clear on my resume so I don’t look like a job hopper?

  105. Gandalf the Nude*

    Yesterday my boss thought we were going to have a check in and accountability meeting, but instead I told him that I’m job searching. Whoops!

    Thankfully, it went well. We’ve talked before about how employers and employees both benefit from frank and early discussions about job searches, so I wasn’t too worried, but it was still very stressful. He was pretty disappointed, but when I pointed out that he would benefit from a fully charged employee at least as much as I would benefit from a reset, he agreed it was the best plan for everyone. And then, because he’s awesome, he transitioned the conversation into how he’d like to help with the search, resume advice, networking, etc.

    So, yeah. Shout out to AaM and community for preparing me for that conversation and giving me the tools to evaluate the situation and come to the right conclusion about whether to stay or go. Wish me luck on the job search!

  106. Job Seeker Extraordinaire*

    Should I try again for a job if the person they picked over me is getting let go?

    I’m going to be unemployed as of Dec 31. I’ve been job searching and interviewing for the last several months in anticipation. About 7 months ago I interviewed for a job, was asked back for 2nd round, they selected another finalist but sent me a personal rejection which I appreciated. I’ve just heard from their employee that referred me that the person they selected didn’t work out and they let her go.

    Should I be interested in this job again? It’s a little intimidating that the person they thought was a better fit couldn’t handle it, but my referrer doesn’t know details.

    I’m thinking I should wait to see if the hiring manager reaches out to me, or do you think I should be watching for them to post publicly and reapply?

    1. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Inc.*

      I was going to suggest reaching out to the hiring manager, maybe by saying that you heard there was another opening… but on second thought, I kind of question the wisdom of that.

      Either way, don’t be too worried that the person they hired didn’t work out.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I would email! Just a quick “Hi! I heard this position was recently vacated again; I’m sorry your new hire didn’t work out! I just wanted to let you know that I’m still very interested in the position and would love to talk about it more if you think I might be a good fit. Thanks!”

      7 months is a fairly long time, so I would not bank on the hiring manager thinking to reach out to you again; I would absolutely just assume that you’d moved on to something else, and a hiring manager might welcome the opportunity to not go thru the entire process again if it had been a really close decision between the 2 of you.

      1. Durham Rose*

        Definitely reach out after the news has gone public, I’m sure they would consider you again. This happened to me one time, I was 2nd choice for a job and the 1st choice didn’t work out in a matter of weeks, they gave me the job right then and there and I stayed there for 2.5 years!

      2. Job Seeker Extraordinaire*

        Thanks, good point about thinking I’ve moved on. I’ll be sure to watch for them to post the job and take the first step. Thanks everyone!

  107. SW*

    I’m nonbinary & use they/them pronouns at work. I have an interview on Monday for another department with whom I’ve interacted through email. I’m not sure if they know I’m non-binary & I don’t want to make a big deal about it. But being misgendered sucks. How would y’all want it handled by me if you were the interviewer & didn’t want to ask/step on any toes?

    1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      Honestly, I think I’d like a heads up – either before we met or at the start of the interview. For myself I’d honestly prefer if someone, upon shaking my hand at the start of an interview, were to say “Thanks for meeting with me. There’s really no ‘perfect’ time to bring this up, but I wanted to let you know that I am nonbinary and prefer that people use they/them pronouns instead of the usual gendered pronouns for me.” I know that I would be “Oh…okay. thanks for letting me know.”

      1. ..Kat..*

        But, if interviewers make mistakes, keep in mind that this is new to many people. It can take repetition for someone to get it correct. If someone errs, will you gently correct them? Or?

  108. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    Just ordered lunch here at the office. Why does this have to be such a chore? There were only two of us interested in ordering. We have a ton of menus. I ask “Where would you like to order from?” The other person says “I don’t care. Anywhere is fine with me.” I pull out the menu for a place that I have been craving a sandwich from. She immediately wrinkles her nose and says “Oh…they’re my least favorite.” I offer to go somewhere else. She says no, this is fine. We order and now I’m worried that they’ll screw up her order. She’s the kind of person who will complain for days about it (and do nothing about it!!!). Rationally I know that if the order is messed up it has nothing to do with me and that I gave her the option to choose – TWICE! – but it’s a small office and I have to deal with her every day. So frustrating!!!!

    1. Amber Rose*

      What if you sort of made her pick next time? “Hey, last time you didn’t seem to enjoy lunch. You should choose where we order lunch from today. I’ll place the order, just let me know where and what.”

      1. fposte*

        I suspect Co-worker will not be tricked into useful communication so easily and will stick to her “Anything is fine” pout.

    2. fposte*

      She wants the “please me” dance, and she wins by never being completely pleased. You could just stop doing it. Just say “I’m ordering from Cowicide–do you want anything?” Or when she says, “Oh, they’re my least favorite.” “Okay–that was weird you said you’d be fine with anything in that case. You can pick the place, or I’m placing an order with [different place] in five minutes–just let me know what you want from there if you don’t want to pick.” Basically, be the rolling train that she can hop aboard or let pass by, but the train doesn’t stop for her.

    3. NotAlwaysOut*

      Either accept being the decision maker or not include her in the process. My mom was like this also. So I just had to learn to decide what I wanted and then accept her response was not my responsibility.

    4. NorCalPM*

      Order your own lunch. Let her take care of her lunch on her own. No need to do it jointly. You’re not her mom, packing her lunch for third grade. If she wants something, she can order it. Not your responsibility.

    5. Delta Delta*

      Try “I’m ordering from MegaSalad in a few minutes. Want something?” Then either she says ok or she says no and you get your MegaSalad and she’s on her own.

      And now I want to open a lunch place named MegaSalad.

  109. AnonForNow*

    How do you settle on a career path? I feel like I have pretty diverging interests and I don’t really know how to pick one and go with it. I’m in career track A but have had an interest in career track B since high school. It’s more science-y and I just assumed I wasn’t smart enough to pursue it (which I know now isn’t true). Any tips on how to decide if switching gears is the right thing to do? I don’t hate or even mildly dislike my job now.

    1. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Inc.*

      Most people change career paths at least three or four times during their lives (and by that, I don’t just mean changing from one job to another – I mean changing from one career to another, if that makes sense.)

      1. Silver*

        That’s reassuring. I’m unhappy right now and considering changing things, but I’ve been doing basically the same thing since high school (I’m 35), with a few exceptions.

    2. nep*

      Agree with above comment. I wouldn’t worry that any job you choose to take will set in concrete what you want to do for the rest of your working life. If you’re making enough money and the work is gratifying, that’s what should count. I think very few people have one sole professional interest.

  110. dan*

    I interviewed for an academic librarian role about a month ago and still haven’t heard anything. At this point I am assuming that an offer went out to another person and they’re still going through the process of accepting the offer.

    I’m embarrassed to say that after the interview, I only sent a thank you email to the head of the search committee and the HR person, leaving out about a dozen additional people (search committee members plus others I encountered in the day-long academic hell-interview). The reason for this is that I had to go on travel for my current job the same week of the interview to a different time zone and was a) super busy and b) so exhausted I could barely function. I’m still feeling like I messed up by not sending them. Do you think there would be any benefit to sending thank you letters now, or would it just underscore that it took me a month to send something?

    1. Buffy*

      In my experience, I think its appropriate to only send the thank yous to the people you described. Hope you hear something soon!

    3. Another Academic Librarian*

      Unfortunately, I think it is too late to send anything else!

      In my experience, the best candidates usually send thank you notes (via email) to everyone who had a scheduled role throughout the course of the interview day(s)–i.e. the search committee, anyone who gave tours, etc. But, that said, it is not uncommon for candidates to send a thank you note to the chair of the search committee only, and in those cases the chair generally forwards the note to the rest of the committee.

      I also want to say that the fact that it has been a month doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Academic hiring is super slow, and October and November are notoriously busy at many libraries (so much instruction!). For example, my workplace held interviews during the first week of October, and only just announced the name of the successful candidate this past week!

  111. rosiebyanyothername*

    How do you deal when you and your coworker are managed very differently? Fergus and I have different managers but are at the same level/basically have the same responsibilities. I have a bit more direct experience in this field. My boss and I are friendly but professional, and she’s very direct with giving feedback, which I appreciate. Fergus’ boss is much more of a “mother hen” type, and as Fergus progresses in the role, he’s consistently making the same mistakes–it’s obvious his boss is not intervening or giving him constructive feedback. Instead, she often publicly presents him with gifts and rewards (coffee, lunches, clothes, even silly “good work!” stickers) and encourages everyone in the office to give him a round of applause when he meets one of his goals. He is relatively new to the working world, but it seems a bit excessive.

    How she chooses to manage Fergus isn’t my business, but it does make working with him challenging. We work very closely on projects but he is very unreceptive to feedback or even corrections from me or other coworkers, and it’s often frustrating when I’m talking to a client who previously talked to Fergus and find out he gave them inaccurate information. I think in many ways this is due to the fact that his boss never seems to intervene when Fergus makes a mistake, or offer him any areas in which he can improve. If I do offer him feedback or ever display even a bit of frustration towards him, his manager scolds me (my manager dislikes Fergus too, but we’re both powerless.) I know I mostly just have to deal, but any way to make this more bearable?

    1. NorCalPM*

      Don’t try to fix him. If he gives incorrect information to a client, correct the information so the client isn’t in the dark, but do it diplomatically. Focus on doing your own job well, communicating accurately with clients, communicating clearly and accurately with him (in writing whenever possible), and being dead-pan and noncommittal with him when you speak. Take a “just the facts, ma’am” approach with the guy. Let him fail, if that’s what he’s going to do. And go heavy on the documentation to show you’ve done everything right. View him as what he is: a non-performing asset you’re stuck dealing with for now. Try not to let him (and his boss, who sounds like a piece of work) get your goat. Focus on your excellence, not his lack of it.

  112. justsomeone*

    I GOT PROMOTED!!!!
    It was a combination of the company going through some growth, me seeing the direction of that growth and getting a certificate related to a skills gap in the company and me using Alison’s scripts to indicate to my boss that I felt that I was performing at a higher level, asking what I would need to do in order to move up in the company and being patient while things shook out.
    One of the most exciting and scary parts of the new job is that I’ll be a “lead” and managing the day-to-day activities of the person we’re hiring to fill my former role.

  113. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Our MS Office was upgraded to 2016 from 2010 two weeks ago. I get that there are a lot of changes between the two versions, but oh my God my co-worker who’s annoyingly helpless about most things just will not stop complaining about it. Every single day, multiple times a day, “I can’t find anything!” “It’s so slow!” on and on until I’m ready to scream. We’ve also been told that we’ll be switching to Office 365 next month, so that’ll be fun too.

    1. Artemesia*

      Part of any software change or similar change, first in the training should be some sort of review of how change is difficult, things always seem hard at first until everyone is up to speed on the new processes AND that thus the office will be a no whining zone for the next two months while the transition takes place. Whining and complaining drives co-workers crazy — so no whining. Anyone who has a serious problem after trying to make a procedure work should come to the supervisor (or whoever is the coach here) with specific questions. Maybe in the case of a particularly grumbly group each person could be given a ‘no whining’ paddle to raise when someone near them complains about it.

  114. Sally*

    I am going back to school full time starting in January. Thanks to my partner’s income and a modest inheritance, money won’t be an issue. I’ve already registered for spring classes, and will definitely be leaving my job before the semester begins.

    When should I give notice?

    I would wait and give 2-3 weeks notice, especially because I could really use the next few weeks of paychecks for the holidays and my office might not want me to stay forever after giving notice.

    But my boss is pregnant, and due soon – her last day in the office is 12/8. She hired a guy to be deputy director for our department, so there would still be someone to resign to after she leaves, but he’s still pretty new. He also probably would not have the power to hire a replacement for me. It’s a small department, and one less employee would make a big difference in my colleagues’ workloads. And really, it would be more like 2 people, because my boss will be out for three months! I like my colleagues and don’t want to screw them over.

    Add to this that my boss and I have had a…fine relationship over the years. She didn’t hire me, I was just assigned to her team 4 years ago. She’s a pretty bad manager who also plays favorites, and I am not a favorite. As much as I dislike her, though, I do feel some loyalty to her and the company – they’ve given me a lot of opportunities, and took a huge chance just hiring a volunteer.

    1. Durham Rose*

      The deputy likely will have the power to replace you if he needs to, this is why management positions are covered like this during leave periods. I guess there is a chance your boss would ask that he not make any hiring decisions until she’s back as she would want input into that- that’s on her then and no one can blame you for that. Sometimes these things just happen and people pick up the slack. I’ve covered more than a few people’s maternity leave or vacant positions- it can be tough but you always know it’s not permanent, it is part of having a job in the world! Everything will all be fine and most importantly, you will be doing whatever it is you need to do to advance your own career.

  115. Recruit-o-rama*

    I almost never share on the open threads, but I wanted to share my good work related news. About 6 weeks ago, a former co-worker who left for a big promotion at an up and coming competitor called me up and we started a back and forth about their recruiting needs, etc… Long story short, a series of interviews ensued and I had an offer last week for a BIG job, big title jump and pay increase. I countered for more vacation and a slight increase in the offered salary and they accepted! I submitted notice this week, bitter sweet, as I love my company, job, boss and co-workers and I start my new job in 3 weeks. I am over the moon about this opportunity!

  116. JobHunter*

    Hi everyone!
    I have a job interview next week with a government contractor. I know several posters here have worked for gov contractors and was wondering if anyone had any tips.

  117. Buffy*

    Is there any etiquette rules for salary negotiation for a job in another department? I believe I’m going to be offered a position within a different University department, although I very much love my current job. I’d think seriously about a counter offer but I’m not sure whether you negotiate salary with New Job, then present Old Job with that number, or do it in tandem? Any guidance would be appreciated, I’d like to operate as ethically as possible!

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Do you have a bargaining unit or union for your position? I have a similar job and our bargaining agreement is very clear on what salary requirements are. You can certainly negotiate within a window, but it’s a narrow one. Your union rep would have more information and would be able to guide you on what range others on campus are.

      When I switched departments, HR didn’t want to even give me the required minimum salary. I was going from an entry level admin asst full time position to a mid level admin coordinator 4/5 position. The minimum salary was an improvement over what my full-time pay was, but HR actually wanted to take my full time pay and slash it without factoring in my. The hiring manager gave me an inside scoop on the back office arguments, so I clued in my union rep. My union rep approached HR to ask what the hold up was and got the story that way, and totally went to bat for me.

  118. all charitied out*

    Just to share a bit of an achievement – I was “volunteered” to organise my office’s yearly charity event. And through 1) unfortunate timing and 2) lack of seniority to appoint people, my team ended up consisting of me and one intern. It was SO TOUGH and I will NOT miss the past four weeks. But despite the limited effort, we managed to raise 2000 dollars for our charity! YAY!
    I only wish the bosses would had been more on the ball. I was pretty much chucked this task. And when the two of the three other people volunteered bailed out, my boss made no effort to find replacements. (I just joined the company and am not in a position to divert people away from their main jobs to do this)

  119. Arya*

    I had a situation happen at work that I am having trouble being objective about and I’d like to get someone else’s perspective. Yesterday at a weekly meeting, a few of us decided that there was another topic we really needed to go into depth on, so we all agreed to take this subject up after the current meeting. My manager (who is a participant in but not the leader of this meeting, I’ll call him Theon) agreed but said he had another meeting to attend so could we all get back together at 2:00 instead? We all agreed. Later that morning Theon tells me we should invite Yara to the 2:00 meeting. At a later time, Yara’s manager, who is Theon’s peer, says to Theon, hey it would be nice if I could get information about such-and-such before next week. Theon responds that we are meeting at 2:00 to determine this information.
    After returning from lunch I notice that Theon never sent out a meeting invitation. I decide to go ahead and do it for him. I invite Theon, Yara, and a couple of my coworkers.
    Ten minutes before the meeting, Ramsay sends me and Theon and email saying that if there is a meeting, he and Yara need to know. I immediately responded and said that I already sent an invitation to Yara. I left my desk to go to the restroom before the meeting and was walking past Theon’s door and I could hear Ramsay complaining to him about why he didn’t get a meeting invite. Theon says “Well, did Arya say she was sorry?” (Arya being me, the OP). I stepped into Theon’s doorway and said to Ramsay, “No, I did not say I was sorry. This was not supposed to be a management level meeting, and I invited Yara, so if she thought it was important that you were there, she could have invited you.”
    Am I wrong in feeling like my manager threw me under the bus? Ramsay has along history of being petty and difficult to work with and Theon avoids all conflict. I am one of the few women in a male dominated field so I am cautious about apologizing unnecessarily. I was really upset that my manager thought this was something I should apologize for.
    I am thinking about meeting with my manager on Monday to let him know that I am not happy with his level of support. Also worth noting that I have been heavily job searching for the last 4 months.

    1. fposte*

      I think some of your read is dependent on your existing workplace dynamics; if I heard my boss asking a colleague if I’d apologized I would be really startled but wouldn’t automatically be angry–I’d ask him later what was going on there and let him handle the meeting with his peer at the time.

      However, in general I recommend against a meeting with your boss to tell him he’s underperforming; it’s not likely to change him, and its likelihood of making your life harder is pretty high. What I might do is meet with your boss to ask if you should default to just including everybody in a meeting invitation or if he thinks Ramsay is just bitching in a way that shouldn’t change your approach. (Around my workplace, it would be up to me who called the meeting to extend the invitation to Ramsay (he’s Yara’s boss, right? I wasn’t sure)–Yara might ask me if we could include somebody else but wouldn’t bring him in on her own.)

  120. Princess Buttercup*

    Looking for anyone else who is or has been in a similar situation:

    I graduated with a B.A in Psychology which I enjoyed but I realized I don’t really know what I want to do so I didn’t go to grad school.
    I am working as an administrative assistant and I really like where I work but there is no room to grow.
    So has anyone ended up in a different field than what they studied? How did you figure out what you wanted to do?
    I’m thinking about just starting fresh and getting a second Bachelor’s, maybe in statistics.
    Has anyone gone back to undergrad for for a completely different field?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So has anyone ended up in a different field than what they studied?

      I think you’ll find a lot of people in this category.

      I have a bachelor’s in English, and I studied to be a classroom teacher. Was a classroom teacher. Now I do tech support at a school. So still kind of education-related but completely different from what I studied.

      How did you figure out what you wanted to do?

      Mainly trial and error… and luck (in terms of opportunities that presented themselves)!

    2. Amber Rose*

      I have a B.Sc in Geography.
      I did do some work in that field.
      Now i’m a safety manager at a manufacturing firm.

      Life is funny that way. I’d love to go back to school, but it’s way too expensive.

    3. Sarah*

      I know a few Psych BAs who have gone on to work in administrative and program coordination roles at universities.

    4. Fictional Butt*

      I switched fields between my undergrad and grad (and worked in a third field in between!). I would do a lot of research to see if you can get a master’s in something that interests you instead of another bachelor’s (not that there’s anything wrong with doing a second bachelor’s, but if you can get a higher degree, why not?)

    5. A.N.O.N.*

      I think it’s really common for humanities/social science majors to have jobs outside of what they studied. Figuring out what you want to do is hard. As Anonymous Educator said, I think the best way is through trial and error. Also, speak to people in the industry you’d like to enter. Do research. Assess what you like about your current position/workplace and what you don’t like.

      Eventually, you’ll fall into something that works for you.

    6. AcademiaNut*

      I have friends who have done this. In one case, they went back to take a totally different degree, in another they switched majors 3 years into a 4 year degree. In both cases, the second degree was for a STEM field where they needed a related degree to get an entry level position (you’re not going to get a job in oceanography with an English degree, for example). In the first case, they’re still working in the second field, in the second, they worked in the field for a while, then did a Master’s degree in a third field, and got a job combining the second and third fields.

      Starting fresh and doing a totally new degree, though, is a pretty major thing. If the degrees are similar, then there’s generally not much point in doing the second degree, if they’re very different, most of your previous courses won’t carry over, and you’ll be looking at four years. If you do it, you need a clear, strong, idea of what you want to study and what kind of job you want at the end, *and* it needs to be the only option for the career you want.

      Other options to consider – on-line courses from a reputable source, where you can build new skills without taking on a ton of debt (something like stats could be well suited to this), or more technical/skills based programs, either community college based, or for post-bachelor’s professional development.

  121. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    Three weeks ago I made a desperate anonymous post about my workplace situation. I have worked for a special program at a University for 4 years and my boss of four months presented me with the worst possible annual review a person could have. She had a three page addendum listing all the ways she thought I sucked. Not a single one of those issues was brought up to me before. I had gone to her with situations and asked her to let me know if there were problems, but she was so passive-aggressive she wouldn’t address me directly. She actually told me during the initial meeting (presenting me with my review) that I “should have known based on the emails [she] sent to the students about tightening the ship.” In what world does an email to students about their grades have anything to do with me? She also blamed me for campus facilities operations not fixing our HVAC issues when she demanded, or the locksmiths not fixing something instantly, etc. She made a statement that I had potentially failed to report a Title IX violation (never mind that there is an active investigation into the situation, I was told my testimony couldn’t be discussed, and that I was specifically told I was not being investigated and had been cleared because my knowledge was demonstrably second or third hand rumors). I notified my union rep and HR, who stepped in to remove that Title IX defamation and several other claims she made. She ended the review with the statement that if I don’t make changes, she’d rather have no one in this job than me.

    Well the hag got her wish. Today is my last day. I applied for a position with another University in town. Application period closed on a Tuesday, I had a panel interview on Friday, an interview with the Dean on Tuesday morning, and by lunch I had an offer. I get paid more, have summers off, and better benefits. The department I’ll be in is more in line with the work I’ve done in the past, including event planning/management. Though I’m still an admin assistant, my duties make me more of an assistant than a receptionist. Less of a desk job and more interaction with students. Best of all? My nasty boss is out all this week for travel and next week is Thanksgiving so we are all off – which means my entire two week notice has been served without her. I handed her my resignation as she left the office last week and closed down this week. She was asking if I thought the University could get the job posting up over Thanksgiving so someone could be in place by the start of the year. I flat out laughed and told her she’d be lucky to get someone in place by March at the pace the University hires. She wanted me to arrange for someone to fill in and help out. I told her she needed to do that through the Dean.

    I’m looking forward to hearing how she likes having no one in the office over me. I especially hope she hires an external candidate who has no idea how the campus works. Yes, I’m totally bitter at how she handled this. The good thing is that HR has realized that there has been a lack of oversight into these special programs and the training the directors receive on University policies. They are already looking for ways to be involved.

    1. Caledonia*

      Good for you. I hope your new position is AMAZING!

      (and I co-sign all those other things about your now former boss)

    2. Bugproof*

      CONGRATS! So glad you’re out of there. I hope HR puts a stop to her behavior before another person goes through what you did.

  122. anonymous teapot maker*

    I’ve noticed that I’m often perceived as younger than I am in the workplace, to the point where I feel at times that I’m not taken as seriously as I would like. (For reference, I am still young, ~30, but not “just out of college” young.) This happened in my last workplace and my new job, which tells me the cause might be me. I’ve been trying to examine my own body language, speech patterns, attitude to see what I might be doing to give off this impression. I’ve noticed two things—I speak very quickly and tend to collapse in on myself when I’m sitting. Besides just trying to be aware of it as possible and adjusting when I notice it, has anyone else effectively trained themselves out of habits like this? Any other tips/tricks I could try?

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I set an alarm or reminder on my calendar. Every 15 minutes it reminds me to sit up straight. There are days when I up it to every 5 minutes.

    2. Durham Rose*

      People might jump on me for this because it opens a can of worms about being judged by appearances….but in my opinion when you look young, you need to dress very professionally, maybe more so than other people in your office. Hold your head high, and be confident. Also be careful about talking too much or talking to fill in silent pauses. Speak carefully and have your thoughts fully formed before you start speaking. I have had this same issue and I think learning to be quieter, listen more, and speaking carefully has helped a lot.

      1. Brownie*

        The professional dress thing has made a huge difference for me, not just with my local team, but with the higher-ups. I look significantly younger than I am (late 30s, common guess is that I’m 25-30) and have unnaturally colored dyed hair. When I want to be taken more seriously I dress more professionally and take more care with my appearance than I’d do otherwise. There’s a serious attitude change that occurs when I do that from the people interacting with me, especially if the person I’m interacting with doesn’t see me on a regular basis. It’s frustrating (while also being fascinating) that something as simple as dressing up a little can change their attitudes so much.

        Also massively seconded on the fully-formed thoughts. After seeing a parade of interns over the last few years the ones that stood out as professional and part of the team were the ones who were deliberate with their words. Those who verbally flailed around weren’t taken nearly as seriously, professionally, by the people working with them.

    3. Rainy*

      Work on the things you know to be an issue, and do your best to emulate slightly older dress patterns, which may help, but if you look younger in the face, there’s not a lot to do about that.

      I am one of those people who looks very young, and I used to try to game people’s perceptions around it but at this point (I’m in my 40s) I just let my obvious experience and knowledge speak for itself.

    4. HannahS*

      The speech thing is tough. My professional/interview self has a lower (in pitch) voice, speaks more slowly, and speaks in complete sentences, unlike the regular me. It’s just a habit that takes a lot of mental “bandwidth” until it becomes second nature. One thing that helped me was to have some kind of pause + deep breath before beginning to talk. So, smile, nod, breathe, “Interesting question. Let me see if I can pull up the information on that.” Or furrowed brow, nod, “Hmm,” breathe “I’m not sure about that. Let’s discuss it in our meeting.”

      Also, you might kind of feel like a tool at first. I felt like I sounded like Captain Holt at his most robotic professional self.

  123. zora*

    2 questions for y’all:

    1. Culture/Holiday activities and the billable hour. Billable folks, what does your company do for holiday parties and other culture activities in general?

    Our company encourages regular culture stuff, and the assumption is that it is always during work hours. But there is a lot of tension with a few people who don’t enjoy themselves because they know they have to make up their hours later, and want us to do things after hours. And I’m wondering how valid that is and whether I should try to accommodate them at all?

    2. Team Schedules/Calendars: How do you keep/track team schedules?

    We have Outlook and use our calendars to schedule calls, meetings, etc. But then we also have several different versions of “Calendars”, a weekly schedule for the whole division, a monthly calendar for our team, and more… most of which are created in Excel every week. So, basically, multiple people are typing the same information into multiple documents Every. Single. Week. This seems so inefficient to me!! Please tell me there are some ways to automate this? Use different outlook calendars and export? Some web tool that would allow us to keep track? Excel using filters/template that converts to calendar format?

    Thanks all!!

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      In our office, we all have our own individual calendars plus a calendar for the team. We are each responsible for entering events onto the team calendar – approved vacations, meetings or events outside of the office, important visitors or guests, deadlines for specific tasks, and other important info. As the admin asst, I verify a lot of the information posted, especially dates that come up in staff meetings.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Our calendars are all in Outlook. Why would you make calendars in something that isn’t a calendar and then have to duplicate?

      1. zora*

        I don’t know, but there are several that predate me and some I am partially responsible for updating. :o( I’m trying to figure out how we can streamline this insanity.

        One for example is sort of an ‘at-a-glance’ calendar for just our team for the month, to give the leadership an idea of how many people have days off and therefore how many person-hours we have for projects.

        Another is a week at a glance of our whole division, 30+ people, showing which offices people are working in/whether traveling, at client events, etc.

        And then other teams / account teams have separate calendars for their group as well.

        People put things on their outlook calendars obviously, but it’s not so easy to tell from a glance whether they are in or out of the office, or what in general is going on, unless you read through each item on the calendar.

        I’m thinking one way to make it easier would be if people would use “colors” consistently across the company, one could pull an Outlook calendar by color I believe and get that info all in one place without retyping it into an Excel grid. But I doubt it’s realistic to get everyone to remember and stick to a color system for everything they put on their calendars.

  124. Me--Blargh!*

    I have not heard anything from the interview last week. He told me they would let us know this week either way. I’m trying not to worry about it, as he said he had two internal and one more external candidate to interview (and that was on Wednesday). But Glassdoor renewed the listing and now it’s on there twice. Is that something they just do, or does the company say, “We didn’t find anyone, so renew that bad boy because the candidate pool sucks”? #jerkbrain Also, I failed to get a card so I could email to follow up, and when we were discussing what DisengagedNewBoss would say about me, I should have told him to talk to AwesomeBoss and I did not. #jerkbrainx1000

    Also I trotted out a SpongeBob metaphor without even thinking about it, but then it made him laugh really hard and we ended up discussing our favorite episodes for five minutes. Gah! #jerkbraininreallifesituations

    I don’t know what I’m going to do. There is nothing to apply to this week–the entry-level jobs have not been getting back to me at ALL. Jobs I should be able to do in my sleep. The rest I am unqualified for either because of dyscalculia or inexperience (as in fields I would need degrees in, etc.). I’ve looked in KC and St. Louis and the pay is about the same, but housing costs would double, so I can’t even move for a shit admin job. And even they are reposting jobs I did apply for and heard nothing back from. WHY YOU NO CALL ME I COULD DO DIS

    Plus, with all the triggering stuff in the media, it’s been a really crappy week. Just really, really crappy. /rantover

    1. Peach*

      Where do you live now? I’m in KC and the cost of living is traditionally low. My apartment is only $750 a month with everything included. I’m curious where you’re located with half the cost of living!

      1. Me--Blargh*

        I live in Springfield. I can’t move up there for a shitty $12 an hour job because I can barely afford my mortgage here on that ($410 a month–I bought the house in 2002 and was smart enough to get a fixed-rate mortgage). It’s the only bill I have that hasn’t gone up. $750 might as well be $7,500. It’s out of reach. I don’t want to stay in MO–but I hoped a larger market could have jobs that were better overall, so I could save up and leave. It does not, at least nothing I’m qualified for or that wants me.

        Apartments down here range from $450-$1500. When I first moved here in 2000, I was paying $250 for a 1-bedroom, but that will never happen again.

        1. Peach*

          When I made my comment, I thought “the only place I can possibly think of that would be cheaper is Springfield.” Ha. I’m sorry to hear that, though! Good luck in your job search.

      2. Rainy*

        Good grief–KC has gone up a bit. My late husband and I rented a house with off street parking and a yard for $525/mon when I lived there, and I think apartments were in the $3-400 range.

    3. Windchime*

      Hey, have you heard of flexjobs.com? A former colleague recommended it to me when I was job searching, and it is a place to find legitimate jobs that are mostly or fully work-from-home. I think it costs a small amount to sign up, but it might be something to try. It might get you a job that pays above entry level, which could then possibly lead to the ability to relocate.

      Just kind of thinking out loud, and I thought I would mention it.

  125. Ack!*

    I was a member of a private Facebook group related to my industry. I made a post expressing that I am a little burned out due to my working hours (which are upwards of 50 hours per week) and stressed, partially due to burnout and also some problems with my health and home life. The post did not name my employer or indicate where I work in any way.

    Someone in the group who works for the same organization showed my post to my boss. I recently applied for a promotion. My boss contacted me about the Facebook post and asked me to explain myself. I was terribly flustered and reiterated that I really enjoy my job (I do!) and am dealing with personal issues at the moment which are complicated by the late hours. She was… weird about it. The call didn’t last very long.

    I think I have ruined my chances for a promotion. I have deactivated my Facebook and am locking down all other social media because I feel like someone in my office is watching me.

    I sent an apology email to my boss as a follow-up to our call and went over everything I had said on the phone. Never got a response.

    Advice?

    1. Somnambulist*

      The coworker who showed the post to your boss sucks. At this point there is nothing you can do since you already had a talk with your boss about it.

    2. Helpful*

      Yikes, that’s tough. Those private groups really aren’t private; I’ve heard of people screen-shotting posts and using them against the posters. This may just be a tough lesson learned; I’m sorry.

      1. Emi.*

        It may be against the group rules, though, which the mods should have been very interested to hear about.

      2. Liane*

        A friend of mine left his job because of workplace, and out-of-workplace, bullying/harassment by a lot of jerk co-irkers. He told me at the time that he suspected they used a closed/secret FB page to plan their dirty work.

  126. AnnaleighUK*

    Wise readers, answer me this: do you think it’s appropriate to post your views on a really controversial issue on your business Twitter account?

    As you know the UK is in the midst of the whole Brexit thing and I’ve noticed that someone I follow on Twitter, who is a local business and uses Twitter to promote her services, has started posting really anti-Brexit stuff and also posting direct tweets to various MP’s that to me come across as really vicious. I’m talking tweeting our Health Secretary stuff like ‘do you have any idea what you’re doing to the NHS?’ followed by a tirade about something.

    Now I keep my political views to myself because it’s not anyone’s business, but this lady is coming across as so vicious in one tweet and then in the next tweet she’s posting things like ‘25% discount on Teapot washing services through December!’ and carrying on promoting herself like she hasn’t just launched a tirade at a politician on a public forum. I think she’s really unpleasant and really unprofessional and I was interested in what she does, but now I’ve read those tweets I’m looking for someone else who does the same thing! I wonder how many other potential clients she’s driven away with hee views.

    Your thoughts? I think she needs a second Twitter account solely for her ranting!

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Yeesh. I’m okay with companies getting a *little* political on social media, but that definitely sounds like too much. Really unprofessional.

    2. Emi.*

      Wow, that is really weird and annoying. She should definitely have separate accounts for business and personal rants. I’ll grant a soft exception to people who do things like freelance writing (especially for political writing) where spouting (ha) off political opinions is part of their brand, but even then they should keep it professional.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        Yeah it’s so weird, I said to my fiancé that I had this image of her cleaning my teapots and then suddenly launching into a rant about the NHS. Like what would I do if she did that? I’m really put off but she’s got great testimonials on her site so she seems like she’s good at her job but y’know, I don’t want to talk politics while I’m at the mercy of a teapot cleaner.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Well, I do that, but so does every other writer I follow. However, I’ve noticed that with writers, it seems to be quite a mix of personal and professional, and they don’t seem to lack for followers or sales. Even when they get angry, they don’t engage in ad hominem attacks on anyone, with the exception of certain political figures I shall not name.

      I think in this case, she might want to pull back a bit or get a second account. For what it’s worth, I follow and am followed by a bunch of remainers (I would be one, if I were British), an MP, science folks, and a former party leader, and the vast majority of them are respectful even when they disagree. It seems that the potential problem lies in the way she’s expressing those views rather than in simply being anti-Brexit.

      Also, she might want to consider that what she’s doing may impact any employees she has. If they disagree strongly with her views or her vitriol hurts the business, they might even quit.

  127. Sansa*

    My parents make fun of my work place. I just started a new job and they make fun of the name. For example, let’s say I worked at “Teapot, Inc.” They would ask me how my job at “Tea-snot” was going and laugh. It took me a year to find the job, and yes, it doesn’t require a master’s and it would be nice to get paid more, but it’s still a job. They don’t act like this with my siblings, wtf?

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        Along those same lines, I’ve had luck with calmly saying “I don’t know if you realize it, but it’s really hurtful when you make disparaging comments about my job.” As Amer Rose mentioned below, they will likely say they’re joking, didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, etc. This then gives you the opening to say, “I understand, but now that you know it makes me feel bad, can you please not do that anymore? I know you wouldn’t want to intentionally be hurtful toward me, right?” Then as Snark says, stare at them until they answer the question.

    2. k.k*

      There’s a phrase that comes up here (borrowed from the Captain Awkward site) “return the awkward”. If you search that phrase on here you’ll see a lot of great examples. Basically, play a little dumb like you don’t at all get the joke, and force them to explain their stupid comment. Making them think it through can force them to see how stupid and weird what they’re saying is.
      “You seem to make a lot of comments about my workplace, why is that?” “That’s an odd thing to say.” If they respond saying it’s just a joke and brush it off you can say, “Huh. I really like my job, I don’t know why you’d think it’s funny.”

    3. Amber Rose*

      Be prepared for the “I was just joking, lighten up” counter, which you can respond to with “If it’s just a joke, it should be easy for you to stop.”

  128. Somnambulist*

    While I have an amazing boss and work from home fulltime, I feel like there’s no real room for promotion or growth in my current position. I am currently looking to relocate to New York City from another state but know that finding a job as an out of state candidate is really tough.

    1. Effie*

      Good luck! I did that 3 years ago and I ended up saving a ton of money (spent about a year saving), finding an apartment, moving to NYC and then finding a job.

  129. Princess Moonglow Sparklebutt*

    Got a question I could use help on! (Long-time commenter, just posting under a different name for paranoia’s sake.)

    There’s a newish employee at my workplace (I think she started 3-4 months ago) who’s started an unpleasant tendency of, for lack of a better word, attempting to win arguments by pulling rank. She’s new to the company but has sixteen years of QA experience at other companies. Her teammates have, oh, between 5 and 8 years of QA experience, of which 2-5 years are at our company. I have 12 years of experience, but am a technical writer, not a QA.

    She recently reported an issue with my documentation (this was my first interaction with her), which I responded to explaining the reasoning and indicating that I was willing to discuss further. She replied by saying that she had 16 years of QA experience–no other discussion or argument, just that.

    I was mildly miffed but considered it irrelevant (I have final say on the documentation, with my boss’s blessing, so I can ignore it), but afterwards several employees told me separately that she’d done the same thing to them, and in fact that she dominated meetings with her team by telling the other employees that her opinions should carry the day because “I have sixteen years of experience and know how this should be done.” So this is a pattern. Her boss is apparently(?) uninterested in doing anything about it–I’m not sure if she’s also intimidated, or if she agrees, or what. (I have not observed the way she handles this employee directly.)

    Like I say, for this particular interaction I can just ignore her, but it’s entirely possible that I will work with her more closely in the future. How would y’all deal with an argument that consists purely of “I have more industry experience than you and know how things should be done,” sans actual argument? I’m kind of at a loss for what I would even say when faced with that, especially in person (in my prior case, the discussion happened in the comments of a ticket, so I could just sort of let it sit there). Neither I nor my boss has any authority to discipline this employee in any way, so I can’t really stop her–I just don’t know what to say TO her.

    1. fposte*

      “Cool, but this issue isn’t one that gets decided by tenure. What about the *process* makes this better?”

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Her, “I have 16 years QA Experience.”
      You, “I have 12 years Technical writing experience. Now that we’ve covered our experience would you like to discuss the issue?”

    3. CAA*

      Your boss has standing to talk to her boss, so you could approach it that way. If your year-end performance reviews are coming up, then the sooner the better so that her boss gets the feedback in time to include it.

      If it continues, then don’t get into a “mine is bigger than yours” argument. You can say thanks for the suggestion, but you’d prefer to leave it the way it is.

    4. Jen RO*

      I’m also a technical writer and I saw red just reading your post. I would basically act like I hadn’t heard her tenure remark and push her to further explain her reasoning. I usually try to assume the best – maybe I am missing something and [person] is right – so I just project that willingness to learn. It seems to have worked so far… though I haven’t quite met someone like her! If push comes to shove, I’d just tell her I need to check with my boss (and then come back with, of course, boss agreeing with me). “Sorry, can’t go over his head, blah blah.” I am not a confrontational person and I think keeping the peace helped me do my job more effectively.

    5. LCL*

      You have 16 years experience. I have 12 years experience. I think it should be done by this way because (reasons). Whenever she brings up her experience as part of the argument, drag it back to technical reasons.

    6. Artemesia*

      ‘Have you had 16 years experience or one year’s experience 16 times?’

      ‘What is relevant here is not what you did back in the day but what the standard is here at the Llama ranch. You have 0 years experience with Llama ranch standards so you need to learn our standards for documentation.’

      Of course this works better when you are her boss — but since you have final say on documentation issues, that second statement is what you need. As in ‘we collectively have 95 years of experience in documenting Llama breeding at Llama Inc while you have 0 years of experience here; documentation needs to conform to Llama Inc standards.’

      She sounds delightful.

  130. peggy*

    I’m getting a brand new 15 inch macbook pro at work, a huge upgrade from my old 13 inch one that had multiple users before me. BUT NOW IT WON’T FIT IN ANY OF MY PURSES! I use large leather purses as my work bag – I don’t have interest or budget for luxury designer like LV but I do tend to lean toward the $200-300 range for a long lasting leather bag like Fossil or Hobo International (I have the Sheila bag in Russet leather now and would carry it till the end of time but it’s 2 inches too small for the new comp.)

    I don’t care for backpacks or messenger/laptop bags, or women’s bags that have super short handles that you have to carry up near your armpit, I prefer a crossbody or long-strap tote and they have to zip top. They don’t need a laptop sleeve because I can get an insert. A few people have recommended Lo and Sons OG bag but it’s kind of too big of a bag overall and the laptop sleeve would go unused because it’s too small for my computer but I wouldn’t need it for anything else so it’s just wasted space.

    I’m currently looking at the Hobo International “Maryanna” bag, the Michael Kors “Kelsey” (which is nylon and not leather, so I’m on the fence), and the Michael Kors “Saffiano” tote. None of them are just right though. Anyone have any awesome bags to suggest?

    1. DC*

      I LOVE Dagne Dover. I’ll admit I haven’t looked for an option that is crossbody, but I suspect they would have it, they have so much.

    2. Simone R*

      I have a Kate spade purse that I love-it fits my 13 in fine and I imagine it would fit a 15 in one.

    3. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

      I’m late today but I swear by Vince Camuto. I can fit big redwells and binders in mine and after 2 years of daily rough use it’s still looking sharp.

    4. Ron McDon*

      I love yoshi bags – they are leather, have really cute designs and fab quality.

      Not sure if you are in US though, they might only sell in UK…

    2. DDJ*

      I actually really like some of the Ken Blanchard books – Leadership and the One Minute Manager, Self Leadership and the One Minute Manager…they’re easy, quick reads. And I personally think that situational leadership is a topic that’s good to be familiar with. Not everyone likes the style and it’s not always appropriate, but there’s some really good stuff in there.

  132. Jennifer*

    Oh god, I just found out that the last person who got hired here–a new buddy of mine–just got fired. What the #$@%@@%&@? This is a place that’s really low on staffing as is! And she was a lovely person! “She didn’t pick it up fast enough.” Oh, FFS, this is a job where it takes you a year and a half to get any good at it, and she was pretty much left with no training for mos of the time. I am so mad.

    Added bonus: we have a new temp that just started and oh, her supervisor and the one above her are going to be out for the next week. Who was supposed to train her? The one that got fired.

  133. Katy*

    Hello, Everyone! I’m looking for some impartial advice… I was recently promoted to a new position/team within my (large, national bank) company but was blocked from negotiating my salary. The recruiter said it would be pointless because the HR policy is that all employees start at the same salary based on what level position they are accepting. (I received a small bump in pay, but not what I was hoping for based on the increased responsibilities and experience I am bringing to my new role.) Now it’s about a month later and I’m having my year-end review with my new manager. She has much more leeway than HR to increase my salary, but I’ve been in this position a very short amount of time and feel uncomfortable asking for a significant pay increase so soon. Thoughts? Advice? Is it too soon to even bring up? Thanks in advance!

  134. Alinea*

    Shoutout to all y’all who consistently freelance on the side.

    A friend of a friend recommended me for an editing assignment. Long story short, while I appreciate the extra funds, I don’t think it was worth it and I’m not sure I’d do it again (any time soon at least). It was very tiring to come home and do more work after a long day of already doing work, LOL.

    1. nep*

      Send the friend of the friend my way. Ha. I’m working on getting back to editing (after three years in another industry) and I’d kill for just one gig to get me back into it.
      I get you, though — I’ve got a colleague who works her ass off at our workplace, then does a job on the side. She’s constantly working, pretty much.

  135. MuseumMusings*

    So I’ve posted a bit about my anxiety and my worries about my stress-filled admin job. I’ve just started taking my meds, and oh my god, I didn’t realize how much of my distress and anxiety was caused by myself. Daily, I find myself in situations that previously would have sent me into spirals of stress and worry that I can just do now. I’m happier and that’s turning into better interactions with my coworkers as well! :)

    1. Silver*

      Yay! Anxiety is the worst.

      I’ve been on meds for social anxiety for like 15 years and I still find myself amazed at situations where before I’d be a mess and now it’s no big deal.

    2. DDJ*

      Hurray! I’m very happy for you. I’m just getting to the point of finally starting to think about possibly going to see a doctor (wishy washy, you bet!) about some medication for my depression and anxiety, and hearing a positive story like this is so helpful. It’s so awesome that you’re having better interactions with coworkers too! Sounds like this has been a hugely positive step for you. Yay!

      1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

        To add another positive story, not only do my meds make all the difference, but I’ve had next to no side effects. It does happen!

  136. Sopranistin*

    I’m a 30-year-old woman. I just started a new job in May. Most of my coworkers and all management are also women. Since I started, I’ve heard one of my male coworkers make several off-color jokes that I honesty find offensive, and I’m struggling with what to do. Some examples: his wife is due to have a baby in a few weeks, and he has joked on more than one occasion that he wants someone else to take the baby so he doesn’t have to take care of it. He has joked about how much he hates being married. Yesterday I heard him say that women are only interested in “cooking and having babies.” I also overheard him tell a room full of women that research says men are better than women at building furniture, because of spatial reasoning. Note: a regular function of everyone’s job here involves building furniture.
    I only work with this person 1-2 days a week, so I can only imagine how often he makes these comments to others. It always takes me off guard and I’m never able to respond in the moment. He’s generally nice and fine to work with, which make these comments even more puzzling. No one’s been able to call him out, the most common reaction is to half-laugh, or brush it off, like boys will be boys, or WORSE-agree with him! I feel that if I say something in the moment, I’ll look like a bi*ch that can’t take a joke.
    I’m thinking of talking with one of my female colleagues who works with him more often to see if she feels the same way I do. Maybe that will give me the courage to confront him.

    1. Pudgy Patty*

      I honestly feel for dudes like this, they only listen if other MEN call them out, not women. They just tune out women entirely.

      And, as a side note re: this: Yesterday I heard him say that women are only interested in “cooking and having babies.”

      I have literally NEVER heard a woman say this, and I’m attuned to it, because I’m actually the only non-career driven woman I know. Every female peer/friend/relative I have is constantly talking about how to move up and grow their careers. As someone who wishes they had the option/luxury to stay at home and not have to earn an income, I really don’t think this attitude is that prevalent anymore. This type of commentary from men feels so out-of-date to me.

    3. La Revancha*

      He’s being totally inappropriate. It would be worth saying a few things like, “your comments about women are making me uncomfortable. Can you please stop?” and then if he continues, “that is sexist. can you please stop saying things like that?” and if he still does it then escalate it to your manager/HR

      1. Artemesia*

        This. ‘You know Fergus, you constantly put down and demean your wife and other women. Haven’t you noticed that you are surrounded by women here? HOw do you think that makes them feel and feel about you?’

      2. Mephyle*

        I would go straight saying something like what Artemesia said. He is likely already aware that he is surrounded by women, and being sexist and making them uncomfortable is probably not an unconscious choice. Calling him out on that might gratify him rather than motivate him to stop.

    5. Observer*

      I like Artemesia’s script. And, if he gives the “Can’t you take a joke?” bit try something like “Sometimes. But only if it’s actually funny.”

  137. Petra*

    I started a new job and I don’t know if I’m being sensitive or if it’s just really clique-y. I work with one other woman and she invited me to eat with some women from another department. I’m a little younger than them, but I tried my best to be nice and socialize. I don’t know what happened, but the next time we ate together, the women excused themselves and got up and left.

    The co-worker that I work with is nice, but I think she’s just being polite. I asked her to get lunch and she refused, but she’ll go with them!

    Now they all go off and eat together and I eat lunch by myself. I’m not invited to anything either and it’s all secret, hush hush.

    Am I being sensitive or is it a really clique-y bunch?

    1. shep*

      Ugh, that sounds really uncomfortable, whether it’s intentional on their part or not! Maybe it has nothing to do with you and they all want to go gossip about some third party, or talk through an ongoing but semi-personal issue that they don’t necessarily want to share with you. Maybe your coworker had other plans for lunch that day, or only has the budget for going out once a week with this crew.

      Or maybe they’re just mean, which would suck.

      Regardless, I feel for you! I am personally one of those people who prefers to do my own thing for lunch, and I keep to myself mostly at work. I have some mild social anxieties re: people I don’t know well; it’s so mentally taxing to me to make small-talk (at which I am very bad), worry about saying the right things, whether or not I have food in my teeth, etc. So I admittedly have some self-limiting habits when it comes to getting to know people in my office, and/or establishing lunch rituals with them.

      Which is to say I wish I had something resembling advice to offer, but in lieu of that, while their behavior has nothing to do with you, it DOES seem clique-ish and rude and very blinkered. Maybe there’s a warming-up phase everyone has to go through, especially if they’ve all been working together for a while. I hope it gets better!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I worked with some people like that in grad school. They were individually nice people and I got along with them generally. But I was only invited to eat lunch with them once after months of never being asked, and the entire time they talked about fun activities they did together last weekend and fun activities they had planned together for the upcoming weekend. That I was not included on, of course. Yawn.

      Yeah, it’s a clique and they will always choose spending time together over time individually with “outsiders.” What I did was just plan for my own lunch outings so I could both ignore not being included and also have a reason to turn down the invitation if I was ever asked again.

  138. Liane*

    Resume questions.
    So, yesterday, I had an appointment at unemployment agency for the second part of one of their trainings I have to go to or lose benefits. The first was a group thing on resumes, job searching and the like. Yesterday’s was a one-one-one with the trainer, which wasn’t bad. I like her, she had some good ideas for my resume. (And I do have to send her my redone resume.
    But–thanks to AAM–I have some reservations about other resume suggestions she made.
    1-Summary. If this is still done, I have no problem with adding one. Except that her example one is full of things that scream “Sucky cover letter!” to me. “I have 10 years experience as a Llama Trainer as well as Grooming certification, and am proficient with MS Office. I developed and taught the Senior and Junior Trainer Assistant seminars offered by Agency. An enthusiastic self-starter [or other fluffiness], I am a great fit as your next Llama School Coordinator.”
    IF a summary is a good idea, how to write a good one.
    2-Skills section. The example one was 2-3 columns of bullet points, with everything from soft skills to MS Office. My instinct is to not incorporate this.
    3-Pushing functional or semi-functional style as a possibility. I didn’t tell UI Agent, but I promise I would never use such a format, unless I decided I wanted to go back to a lab job, which I haven’t had for a decade or so. And first I’d try writing Alison because she probably has a better idea.

    My current plan–unless you, Commenters, have a better one–is to create a resume to UI Agent’s specs–but just not use it–while incorporating the suggestions I know are good in the resumes I actually send out. Note, she emphasized that I don’t have to take all her suggestions, that the resume needs to work for me, and “Show employers who [Liane] is and what she can do. So, the one I send her will probably be the standard, with an added summary and skills section.

    1. LawBee*

      I think your plan is the best. Do what you have to do to keep benefits, but use what you know will work. Jump through the hoop, keep food on the table, and ignore the advice.

  139. shep*

    My boss is wonderful but is moving into a higher position in my company soon (which she deserves!). But my role is heavily contingent on her specific ideas/knowledge of our field, so I’m worried how I’m going to proceed in several areas of my role when she moves up. I’ll still have access to her, but she’ll be extremely busy, to the point where she probably can’t assign me projects.

    And while she’s normally an excellent communicator with an open-door policy, she hasn’t yet told me who I’ll report to once she moves up. It’s in, like, two weeks, with the Thanksgiving holiday between. I’m a little terrified. I kept waiting for her to tell me, because she’s usually so conscientious of things like this, but she hasn’t yet.

    I would just ask at this point, but she’s hardly ever in the office with her busy schedule. She’s very responsive via email as a result, but this is something I’d ideally like to ask her in person.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Send her an email to find you when she’s in the office to talk about the changes that are happening.

  140. Anon accountant*

    I was approached by friends of mine, who know I’m an accountant, to do some work for them on the side. Essentially, it’s a small ongoing company that she and her husband (both retired) purchased to help set their son up in business. The wife is hoping to do the books going forward, instead of the husband for various reasons. They also want to know my thoughts on the health of the business. While going through their books, making corrections, and cleaning up mistakes associated with changing payroll software in the middle of the year, I am discovering that the company is not doing well. This is not really a huge surprise to either of them, and we’ve been brainstorming on what we can do to help turn things around. I can now see that there are some interesting family dynamics going on with the way things have been set up, to the point that their other children are commenting about it right in front of me (we typically meet at the parents’ home).
    My heart hurts for the whole situation. Other than taking a “just the facts, ma’am” position, trying to be as unemotional as possible, do you have any other suggestions? Thanks!

    1. NorCalPM*

      Stick with the “just the facts, ma’am” approach. Family situations can be very sticky. Lots of emotion, often lots of dysfunction and unwillingness to acknowledge, much less address it. Be the calm, fact-based voice and let them hash it out. And don’t put too much of yourself into this. Whether the ship floats or sinks is pretty much up to them. Offer fact-based advice, but it’s their call. Don’t get sucked in. This isn’t your battle to fight. And its outcome will ultimately depend on them, not on you.

    2. Mephyle*

      Recommend them a book about the special challenges faced by family businesses and how to deal with them?
      There are many such books, perhaps someone here knows about a particular one that is good?

    3. Artemesia*

      If I were the son whose business it is, I would be pretty unhappy to have my siblings kibbitzing during business discussions. I’d try to change venues or dynamics here. I feel for the poor son who is supposed to make a go of the business.

  141. Shellesbelles*

    So, my office is located in a pretty touristy area and they’ve opened up their annual Christmas market today. That means non-stop Christmas carols and noise from outside for over a month. Any recommendations for a good pair of work headphones?

    In better news, my 5 family members are all out of hospital, though they’re still in pretty serious condition. Also, work has decided to close the office for 2 weeks over the holidays! That means I’ll get to fly home and be with my family for part of Hanukkah, including visiting everyone who’s been sick. :)

  142. Anxious Marmot*

    I’m in a weird situation. I started at this job almost two months ago (despite having major reservations) because I really needed a job. As it turns out, I am not happy for multiple reasons, and I’d like to quit before I have to put it on my resume.

    Complicating factor: I noticed about three weeks ago that they had reposted for my job externally and were interviewing behind my back. I know it’s for my job–the description and reporting structure is exactly the same, I was not told about any additional hiring, and they were clearly trying to hide it from me. No one has spoken to me about my performance, but there was an incident around the same time where I got on the bad side of an influential senior staff member. The interviews have stopped and the position listing is down, but I don’t know what that means and I’m not close enough with my boss or coworkers to discreetly ask them about it. I’m still getting projects and my boss keeps talking about next year.

    It seems like the decision is easy, but I don’t know if I should just quit now or try to ride it out until (if?) they fire me then offer to resign instead. The main reason I haven’t quit is that financial instability scares me to death, and I’m worried about not finding another position, especially with the holidays coming up. Also, it seems like every time I’m about to quit, I have a decent day at work and chicken out. I don’t have the energy to job hunt after work. If I quit, I have some side work that I’d list on my resume to cover the gap, health insurance coverage, and several months worth of living expenses. Any advice is welcome.

    1. a-no*

      Personally, I would be looking for another job and riding it out until I get one or they let me go. In under 3 months usually they are willing to go the “let go” route so you’d at least get some unemployment (I’m in Canada so we get unemployment pretty much right away, I’m not sure if it’s the same where you are)

  143. partypants...*

    Exempt or not?
    My position is exempt; I am not paid for any OT (which I work a LOT of!).
    I make more than the $23K /year (but not much more)
    I manage volunteers and can hire/fire a minimal amount of one-off staff.

    But I don’t do budgets
    My opnion/thoughts on a subject don’t seem to matter.
    I have to account for every thing I’m doing and if I come in late I get chastised and have to make up anytime missed.
    I’m treated like a newbie who doesn’t know what they are doing, despite havign been in this business for 30+ years.

    just tired of it, would quit if i could get another job in this economy, and really think I should not be exempt.
    Even my payprofile has “manager role” unchecked…

    1. Student*

      Then my best advise to you is:
      Apply aggressively for new jobs
      Vote and contact your representative in local, state, and federal government to tell them why your job shouldn’t be exempt. We were on the cusp of updating this law to account for decades of inflation at the federal level so that you would be non-exempt if your salary is not much over $23k.

      1. partypants*

        I was rather concerned about the law change as we would be changed to hourly and not allowed to do OT. How they thought we would be able to do 50+ hours of work in less than 40 hours when we were all already ready to implode, I don’t know.
        They didn’t want to increase our pay at all.

        Yes, I am definitely job hunting but it’s not easy in my field & state.

        I’m trying to figure out if the job actually meets the requirements to be an exempt position…that third requirement is hard to understand.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Unfortunately, you may need to switch fields altogether, at least temporarily, until something else in your field opens up. This situation at your current place of employment is shady.

    2. Someone else*

      If you’re in California, you’re either not exempt or being illegally underpaid. I don’t know about other states. The $23,600 threshold is Federal but other states may have their own different (higher) minimum for exempt employees.

  144. Clueless colleagues*

    It constantly amazes me how unaware some people can be of their surroundings. There are probably around 100 people working on my floor. We have a small enclosed break area and there is one guy who consistently decides it’s ok to play videos on his tablet at full volume during his afternoon break. I’ve never seen anyone else do this, just this guy. It is totally not the office culture. And he does have headphones he wears at his desk.

    I also once heard him on what was obviously a job interview in there. He was speaking another language that I am pretty rusty in, but I could tell, and there are a lot of other people who speak that language who work in our office! What a goofball.

    I’m not asking for advice, but I just have to shake my head at how clueless this guy is! Anyone else have a similarly clueless co-worker?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Not me but my friend who works a pretty swanky job as a trader has a co-worker who clips his nails on one side of her. Every day. But thats not the worst of it. The coworker on the OTHER side of her folds up a post-it note and loudly picks his teeth after lunch with it every day too.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have been known to quickly clear the space between my front teeth with a piece of paper — but how does someone do this loudly?

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          It’s apparently a very elaborate ritual where he picks from the back of the tooth forward – its not so much cleaning teeth of salad as something more akin to using a toothpick. So she gets to listen to that hollow tooth sound as paper comes into contact with the back of the tooth and is then flicked forward. Against the teeth rather than between (although some between does happen too). For a good 15 minutes.

          I know too much about this :/

    2. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      One of my coworkers constantly has loud discussions about how much she dislikes working here and how she doesn’t respect some of the higher ups with other coworkers and I literally don’t understand how she keeps her job. I guess she’s not so much clueless as annoying to me.

  145. ergo b o i*

    When I started my job a couple of years ago, I was assigned to an office with some 1970’s era furniture, including a decades old L-shaped desk. I had just left a business where I’d gotten used to using a standing desk, so I asked for and was given a tabletop standing desk system in lieu of swapping out all of the furniture completely. A couple of months passed, a coworker retired, and I was upgraded into her old office. Years prior, she had opted to have a cubicle desk and walls moved into her office, with her back facing the office door. Even though I wasn’t thrilled about the setup, I was happy to have a bit more natural light and space, so I tried to make it work. The standing desk system I had just received was awkward in the new space, so after about 6 months I put in a request for just a regular desk. There was pushback, and eventually the higher-ups settled on removing some of the unnecessary cube furniture and shifting my computer setup to the opposite end of the u-shaped cubicle desk.

    Again, I wasn’t thrilled, but I was happy to not have my back to the door and to be able to greet and chat with people who happened to walk by. Unfortunately, at this point 2 years in, I am in a lot of discomfort throughout the day — the new position on the desk means that my legs bump into a pole fairly often, the standing desk attachment in seated mode puts my wrists at awkward angles due to the raised lip, and I have to either constantly adjust my monitor height or crane my neck either up or down depending on if I’m sitting or standing.

    Here’s the rub: my wife will be attending grad school next fall in a different city, and since my office doesn’t allow remote work, I’ll be resigning within the year. I know I should have made these requests as soon as I was uncomfortable or pushed back harder when I moved to the new office, and now I feel very uneasy asking for a potentially expensive ergonomic solution only to abandon post shortly after. Is it unethical to make such a large accommodation request with that in mind? Should I just suck it up for the rest of my time here?

    1. CM*

      Just ask and don’t feel apologetic about it. You’re going to be there for over six months. That’s too long to be physically uncomfortable. Your job needs to provide you with a workspace that is safe for you.

      1. ergo b o i*

        Thanks for the reply. Any tips on how to bring this up again in the face of the pushback I previously received? Do I need to detail all the problems or is more direct the better approach? What do I do if they reject initially?

        “Hi <>, I’m still having issues with the ergonomics of my workspace even with the recent changes. I’d like to request a new desk/workstation so that I can work more comfortably.”

        1. CM*

          I would detail the physical issues you’ve been having: pain in your wrists, neck, and leg because of the way your workstation is set up. And I’d ask for what you want to resolve the issue (not “new workstation” but “workstation that is set up with the monitor at eye level, keyboard that allows me to have my wrists at an appropriate angle, and the ability to move my legs without obstructions”). If they push back, I’d emphasize that you are currently having physical pain and need changes so that you can have a safe working environment. If they are aware of their legal obligations to provide a safe workplace, that should get their attention.

    2. Silver*

      Agree with CM. If it was just a month, personally I’d suck it up. But for more than like 4 months, you totally should get this fixed.

  146. AnitaJ*

    My spouse got a job offer yesterday. It’s a very similar job as spouse’s current position, but with more responsibilities and more room for growth (professionally and monetarily). Current company is absolutely wonderful–flexible when some major health issues occurred, supportive of professional growth, fun and friendly–and spouse wasn’t looking, this job came out of the blue. But at some point, current company will be outgrown, and new company is offering a SUBSTANTIAL raise and some great benefits.

    What questions would you ask of the new company to make your decision? I’m suggesting asking about the new supervisor, maybe talking to a peer to get an idea of the culture…what else?

  147. Pudgy Patty*

    When it comes to the details of how your business functions (i.e. where revenues come from, the types of agreements set up with partners, investment strategy, etc.) that don’t DIRECTLY tie into your day-to-day job functions, how important is it to truly understand how all of it works? As you might surmise from my previous posts, I basically care the minimum amount to get my job done well, and that means just focusing in on my department. But when it comes to reading through my company’s public report and understanding why we’re investing in X over Y, I… don’t. I don’t talk to people in the org who would know, I don’t make an effort to try. And, I never have. I actually don’t even know the full details of the product we’re selling. I should… but then again, I am the only person who knows how to work the system we use for marketing communications, and isn’t it more important I know that in and out instead of dedicated time to product knowledge, when I’m not even customer-facing?

    I feel like many of my colleagues, in every place I’ve worked at, knows WAY more about non-essential job stuff than I do. This seems to me like something that prevents you from moving up in the org (or rather, it’ll bite you in the bum eventually), but if you’re just there for a paycheck, does it really matter?

    On the flip side, if you WERE interested, what are some ways to get a layman’s understanding of the company’s financials if you have zero financial background and have a hard time understanding (and reading between the lines) of official documentation like a public report? Does a lot of it come from developing relationships with people outside your sphere?

    1. CM*

      …if you’re just there for a paycheck, does it really matter?
      I don’t think so, unless you think it matters for performance assessments and in general, keeping your job. That differs from place to place.

      …what are some ways to get a layman’s understanding?
      If reading documents that you have access to is not helping, talk to people. It helps if you actually have some curiosity about what other people are doing, otherwise most people will sense that you are not really interested and will keep it short and vague. If you are really interested, you could ask somebody in another area to sit down with you and explain things, or you could buy them coffee. Also, you mentioned public reports, but you could try looking for slide decks, outlines, or other more accessible documents that are available within the company.

    2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I’ve always been the type of person who wants to know all that stuff. It’s increasingly harder at my current job, because we’re growing so much and have so many functions that I’m just not familiar with, and everything changes too fast for me to keep up on it. While knowing people throughout the company and having a general idea of how the pieces fit together is sort of, mostly, my job, knowing the details is not, so I’ve just had to let go of a lot of curiosity.

      For reading financials, I would honestly just ask someone in finance to have coffee with you to talk about it! I don’t know if you have a good way to meet anyone in your finance department, but if you do, finding someone who is friendly and happy to get you up to speed seems like the way to go. A lot of people like talking about their jobs and teaching people things!

      A related thing to do, especially if you had no idea who to approach, would be to contact whoever your head of finance is (or, maybe 1 step below them, depending on your comfort level) and just stating that you’re interested in learning more about how to read the company’s financials, and others probably are too, and requesting that Finance put together a workshop/brownbad/skillshare on how to interpret them. That way, their time is used efficiently and lots of people have the opportunity to learn about the financials.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I think it depends on your position and the influence you want to have. There are many people like you who focus on doing their job, and aren’t particularly interested in the bigger picture. That’s legitimate, and it does let you have some focus and depth. The opportunity that you may be missing is contextualizing your work within that bigger picture: if you know about why your company is making certain investments, that may enable you to use expertise from your area to make recommendations or just simply adjustment in your own work that better synthesize what you do to what the company does. If you’ve ever had the feeling that if only another department understood a little about your job, you could avoid some time-wasting pitfalls, you’re basically seeing the results of lots of heads-down folks in action. It’s not the end of the world, but it can be a missed opportunity.

      If you were interested in understanding the financials more, you might consider just starting with your own department. Then, you’ll already have context for how the financials translate into operations. You might also consider doing a course on Coursera or similar. I know they have this for nonprofits, but it sounds like you are a for-profit company, right? I suspect there are courses, just can’t personally confirm. That could help you develop the vocabulary and financial know-how to read the reports.

      As for reading between the lines, this is kind of a chicken and egg problem. Understanding the implications of certain financial decisions and the subtext behind them can require understanding the context of the organization. For example, in my organization, we have been re-arranging some accounting codes for certain departments that are likely to get absorbed soon into the broader organization. Without context, it would just look like boring paperwork, but with a little information, an informed reader would likely surmise that our division is trying to be strategic about what resources we end up having to cede to the center and what we can continue to control. But there’s really no training course for this, it’s just the result of having seen the outcome of other centralization processes.

  148. Cawfee Ninja*

    Piggybacking off of SuccessFail’s question at the top of the thread: I’m trying to decide if I should take FMLA at my job.

    I’ve been here a little over a year, and I’m semi-actively job searching because the job responsibilities have evolved into things that aren’t in my wheelhouse. (I was at my last job for 3 years)

    I have bipolar disorder and this year has been tough for me. I had a manic episode in February and I’ve had moderate to severe depression since about May, to the point where I’ve had suicidal thoughts for the first time in 5 or 6 years. My sleep has been crap during most of that time – in order to fall asleep I have to take 10mg melatonin, 50mg trazodone, and 75mg simply sleep (Benadryl). My doctor boyfriend is furious with me for taking that much medication but he also understands it’s the only thing that works.

    I’m to the point where I would quit, but my salary covers my bills with a little extra. I don’t know how I would pay my mortgage. Also, I work at a prestigious university so I have a wonderful benefits/retirement package I’d be a fool to give up.

    I have family close by, and they can help with costs like gas or groceries but not my housing costs. Outside of that, my parents are very much “people in XYZ situation have it worse than you so you shouldn’t be depressed/oh you just enjoy being miserable.”

    I just don’t know what to do, none of the medications I’ve tried are working and I think some time off to focus on fixing this would be helpful but Nov – Feb is a busy time of year for my position and I don’t know how my department would manage (I’m the only one who does my job).

    1. fposte*

      First, don’t worry about how busy the job is or isn’t. That’s not a factor. What does your doctor doctor, as opposed to your boyfriend doctor, say about taking time off? If s/he thinks it’s medically wise, that’s pretty strong.

      My one practical question is the income–are you going to have to take leave unpaid, and/or have to burn all your accrued PTO? If the latter, when would you next be able to take time off then? I’m not suggesting that you hoard PTO like a miser with gold, but you’ve got a health problem and a job hunt, so it sounds like you might need to keep some in hand. Are you talking a short enough leave that you could still do that?

      1. Cawfee Ninja*

        Good questions! My current psychiatrist is AWFUL, maybe I’ll go see my primary care doc. She’s lovely.

        My job provides paid short-term disability; I think 6 weeks if I remember correctly. I have to use PTO for the first 10 days but then the rest is paid. We accrue sick & vacation monthly, so it wouldn’t be difficult to rebuild my bank afterwards.

        1. fposte*

          Sounds to me like a doctor is the next stop, then, and if it seems medically advisable you’ve got the leave to do it.

  149. Occasional poster who is going anonymous*

    Mini-vent: While I like my job, a lot, my current place of employment is pretty dead-end (good work, no room for advancement & too small to have real colleagues); I’ve spent all fall looking at going on for a PhD, which is a necessary stepping stone for me to advance elsewhere. And now we have this tax bill which may make the PhD out of my reach financially. The kicker? Several years back, when I was in my mid 20s and finished my MA degree, I decided NOT to go on for the PhD. At the time, I wanted to get into nonprofit work, and I wasn’t sure I wanted to deal with the politics of higher ed (not like national party politics, just the ordinary in-work politics). Only in the last year or so have I realized that I really do love the work I do, despite its frustration, and it feels increasingly out of reach. Friends of mine have moved on, gotten PhDs, are doing great work, and I feel like the universe keeps throwing roadblocks in my path. Grrrr.

    I know that (to use a phrase from To Kill a Mockingbird) “it’s not time to worry about this yet” and that, whatever happens, I’ll be okay – I’m only in my early 30s, and there are other things I can pursue, but I’m feeling disappointed and anxious and angry and wanted to put this out there.

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, that’s a change that we’re not very happy about around here, that’s for sure. However, I don’t know if this makes it better or worse, but a lot of PhD support was already taxable–depending on your field and the kind of jobs you’d have as a student, you might not have been getting the tax break anyway.

      1. Overeducated*

        I think the big sticking point is that possibility of taxing tuition waivers, though – isn’t that a big break from the current situation? Now a lot of RA and TA positions are W-2 income, other stipends are subject to income tax but not FICA, and grants and fellowships paid directly to students are taxable income as well. But tuition waivers are not currently treated as taxable income, as far as I know, because the students do not receive any actual money, they just don’t get billed. It would be a huge change for someone with a $20K stipend and $50K tuition waiver to suddenly be paying taxes as though they make $70K, which is my understanding of what the current tax bill is proposing.

        (I think you work in higher ed, so you may know more than me, please let me know if I’m misunderstanding.)

        Anyway, yes, Occasional Poster, this is horrible. There is another element of the current tax bill that would result in an entire office of people in my organization losing their jobs (including a friend), and do quite a bit of harm to my field nationally, so I’m also concerned.

        1. fposte*

          There are different kinds of assistantships; for RA and TA positions, the waiver has been untaxed, but for GA and pre-professional GA positions, the waiver gets taxed after @$5250. In our program, we have assistantships of all four kinds, sometimes all working for the same person. Some positions are split between two categories (maybe more, for all I know). So if you were coming to work for me as a graduate assistant, you’d get at best a half-untaxed waiver and possibly a fully taxable waiver, depending on the position.

          1. Overeducated*

            Interesting, this must vary then, I wonder what determines whether or not it’s taxable. Do the GA positions in your program pay more or differently than the RA and TA positions to make up for the extra taxation?

            Impacts may also differ based on how much tuition costs – right now from what I’m hearing, many students at private universities make higher stipends than at public ones, but stand to lose a higher percentage of their take-home pay if waivers become fully taxable. Current students at my university are freaking out about this because tuition is over $50k, though I wouldn’t be that shocked if the university figures out a workaround somehow.

            1. fposte*

              I don’t think there’s any variability–AFAIK, this language from the IRS pretty much covers it: “Tuition reductions for graduate education are considered “qualified” and are excludable only if they are provided by an eligible educational institution to a graduate student performing teaching or research activities for the educational institution.” It’s just that in a lot of programs teaching or research activities are pretty much the only assistantship positions available, so people in them may not be aware that that’s not true in all programs. (The difference between graduate assistants and preprofessional graduate assistants, though, is an institutional differentiation, not a tax one; I just threw it in to make the intricacy frighteningly apparent.)

              And no, the pay scale isn’t different according to the taxability; we have very little flexibility on pay at all (it’s set by collective bargaining and university higher-ups).

              1. Overeducated*

                The more I learn, the more I think this might be more complicated than I realized! My school did have “professional development” assistantships that weren’t teaching or research, they were half time jobs in departments, collections, campus centers, etc. (called something so weird that my university is the top Google result for the title). I don’t really understand what differentiates that from a GA role but I had one for three semesters, got paid and taxed the same as a TA, and did not have to pay taxes on my waiver.

                Anyway, in the interest of not totally derailing for the OP, at least this discussion shows that 1) as fposte says and I just learned, at some schools this will not be a deal-breaker and 2) at other schools like mine where it would be, they may have some flexibility for workarounds, so maybe you can still have hope.

        2. Occasional poster who is going anonymous*

          I’m in the humanities; when I got my master’s degree, I went through as a TA & would likely do the same again. It’s just so nuts – as if we needed to do anything else to make education less affordable in this country!

        3. Artemesia*

          Tuition waivers are crucial for study and expensive. A student could suddenly owe 3 or 4 K on money not received because the tuition is valued at 20K or so. The pain has been neatly targeted at people those in power don’t respect; intellectuals, taxpayers in blue states etc etc

    2. Manders*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling stuck right now. It’s a really rough situation.

      I was talking about this with some friends who’ve run the higher ed tax gamut, and they think there’s a good chance universities will find some sort of workaround to the tax bill if it passes. Universities need the cheap labor of PhD students to run–they just can’t afford to lose all of them at once, so they have a strong incentive to figure out a way to keep PhDs (barely) affordable.

      (In my opinion, it was always kind of ridiculous that a tuition exemption was considered income, since at no time does that money actually get handed to the PhD student. It’s just a budget item moving around inside a university.)

      1. blackcat*

        I have faith in work-arounds being in place in the fall at private universities. Publics may have more issues b/c sometimes a surprising amount of their policies are set by law. But tuition is generally much lower at publics, so it should have less of an impact. In STEM fields, at least, stipends tend to be similar public vs private, at least at reasonably good schools. It varies more based on cost of living.

        If the bill goes through, I will be taxed on $18k of a tuition waiver for this coming spring semester. There’s just no time for the university to change their policy in time. I’m married and my husband makes a lot more than me, so I can stomach the tax bill that I will get for that, but a lot of my peers can’t and are thinking about finding second jobs so they can save up for the taxes they’ll owe for 2018 (so paying in 2019… at least there is time to save).

        And, as someone who is ABD, I find it a bit baffling that I am still categorized as being “charged” full time tuition. I do not take classes. I meet with my advisor ~1/week. I teach, I write, and am in no way using a large number of university resources to do that.

        1. Artemesia*

          That is odd. Usually in my experience ABDs are paying only dissertation credits which often work out to an hour a semester until graduation so a minimal amount. When taking a full course load of course the value of tuition is huge.

  150. should I consider this a "new job"?*

    Hey, looking for thoughts from y’all. My department has merged with another one and I’ve got a new title and a new position description and new projects. I’m wondering if I should break it apart as a separate job on my resume? Right now I’ve got it like:

    Job Title (previously: Old Job Title)
    New Department (previously Old Department”)

    and then bulletpoints of my accomplishments.

    But since everything is new, including all the projects, even though I’m still generally working in the same area of Teapot Development, I’m wondering if it’s cleaner/clearer to just break it out as something new.

    If it makes another different, this new department is located in a different place and has completely different administration and policies, but it’s still the same Giant Employer. (I’m virtual, so I’m not having to move).

    1. Effie*

      I think breaking it into two is fine. I would keep it under the same company’s bullet point. Like so (sorry my formatting is elementary, but you get the idea):

      *Main company
      – Job title, etc
      — accomplishments
      — accomplishments
      – Old job title, etc
      — accomplishments
      — accomplishments

      *Previous job
      – Job title, etc
      — accomplishments
      — accomplishments

      1. Effie*

        ugh previous job should be previous company … like the company before this one. Sorry for my lack of clarity! Hope this helps.

        1. should I consider this a "new job"?*

          That’s a really good idea, grouping it all beneath a big header for the company! I’ve moved around a bit so I’ve had a few jobs at this company, but they’ve all been real moves between locations, so I’ve always had it as

          Job Title 1
          Department 1
          Company, Location 1

          Job Title 2
          Department 2
          Company, Location 2

  151. Arrogant supplier, help!*

    I have a problem with an arrogant tea pot lab technician at a supplier, who’s a walking talking textbook example of dunning-kruger effect.

    I am a teapot engineer at a big four teapot maker. Though we are a big deal, personally, I hate to throw my employer’s weight around to get people to cooperate.
    That being said, our industry is known for being very, very agressive. Most of my colleagues were mild-mannered people who avoided confrontation upon hiring, and 4 years later, they are convinced that there is no way to work with our suppliers other than downright hostility.
    This is the way things are since time immemorial and our seniors don’t have any advice other than bullying people into submission.

    Recently I was faced with this terrible teapot technician at a supplier, Fergus, and I am so baffled I am considering that maybe there really is no other way than being an as*hole.
    It is the fourth time in a year span we are developing a teapot component at Fergus’ company. Yet he won’t learn the basics of our very standardized and well documented development procedure and acts as if he is a robot only doing what he is told, so he cant be held responsible for anything.
    So, every little thing he asks ME, even questions detailed in our contract terms and other basic procedures.
    I am in a cross department team, with people from quality control, purchasing, logistics, etc. He won’t even bother learning who is in charge of what, and directs all questions towards me. What PIS*ES ME OFF is when he comes to me with a, say, QC question and I can’t answer it because it is 1) not my expertise, 2) answering would be a serious overstepping of department boundaries. When I tell him that and to go after the QC person he goes “oh, you don’t know, lol”, as if it is the funniest thing that ever happened in his life. This happens daily, sometimes twice a day.
    He also entertains the fantasy he is a wise underdog who has lots to teach me, because he thinks I have no practical skills, and thinks engineering is fancy theoretical office work that doesn’t translate to reality. In reality, I am made to watch over tests he perform because he can’t or won’t read the procedures correctly, won’t check basic equipment setup and calibration. More than once I caught him making erroneous readings. He is unbelievably cavalier, is never sorry, and always do the same mistakes repeatedly.
    It is also shocking that he acts like he is the lab boss and I am a naive jr employee, when, in fact, he is my age and has just failed the first year of engineering school at a for-profit, because “calculus is unnecessarily complicated”.
    Also, as the client, I could easily have him fired with no repercussions on my end. That’s the kind of industry we’re in.
    It may also be at play that I am a short and soft spoken woman in a predominantly male field.
    I’m at loss as what to do here. I don’t want to be an as*hole and a bully, but being professional and civil is getting me nowhere. At this pace, i will burst into a storm of profanity and wrath very soon. Help!

    1. fposte*

      If you’re the client, can you ask to deal with somebody other than Fergus? “I find we have problems communicating and that dealing with him takes up more of my time than it should.”

      1. Arrogant supplier, help!*

        did it in the past, and the supplier management was pretty much “yeah, he’s a difficult person to deal with, but with, but he’s all we got.” they are a small company and he’s the only lab person. The only other person who can operate testing equipment is the engineering dept manager himself.

        1. fposte*

          Then “as the client, I could easily have him fired with no repercussions on my end” doesn’t apply; you can’t or won’t, and he knows that. (I thought the great benefit of being in aggressive industries was that you can cut ties at the drop of a hat! What’s the fun if you can’t do that?) You’re basically in the position of the people who write in here and say “My employee sucks and I’m not allowed to fire him.” The main actions are off the table. Can you ice him into leaving you alone or will that be a problem?

          1. Arrogant supplier, help!*

            Yeah, you have a point. When I talked to the suppliers management I donwplayed the problems more than I should have though.
            Re: icing him, I am reluctant because I am afraid that if don’t keep a close eye he may report wrong readings, and those are a real problem. If they are not found out before launching the product, our teapot can kill a client.
            I have also asked in the past that all communication be channeled through my main contact there, who’s more reasonable, which is the industry default anyway. but things slowly got back to this situation to “get things done faster”.
            I guess I will try again, as I have received yet another incomplete test report from Fergus today.

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, I think it may be worth pushing on the “Can we either lose Fergus or Fergus’s company?” question again. Or document the errors and negotiate a price break based on them.

              1. Arrogant supplier, help!*

                Thanks, fposte! You really helped me clear my thoughts and see the situation in a more practical and honest light.

                1. Artemesia*

                  If I had a key player who might end up killing a customer with their incompetence, my first priority since his employer won’t deal with him would be to find another vendor. Make the consequences very clear to those who are in a position to do this.

    1. CM*

      We have an awesome program where the company sets aside a substantial amount of money for charitable donations. Employees get to nominate charities to receive money and have an opportunity to inform others about the charities. Then everybody gets to vote on the percentage each charity gets. (Each one gets at least a minimum amount.)

    2. LawBee*

      A local organization runs a program to buy presents for kids who have lost a parent during the year; our office usually grabs 3-4 kids and fills their wishlists and then some.

    3. Ron's wife Sheila*

      We do several things. We just completed a food drive, and we’re doing another in December. All throughout the year we have little events that add to the charity “pot” such as bake-offs, jean days, etc. Then at the end of the year we all have the opportunity to nominate a charity, then we all vote on them and the one with most votes gets the money. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a big name charity either, one year we donated to a family that went through an excruciatingly long 9 months with their little boy that had brain cancer, and he passed away. Their other child also has special needs so they were deep in debt with medical bills.

    4. partypants*

      they do a secret santa; I don’t participate.
      there is a fundraiser for a soup kitchen we are involved with but other than that, not much.

      Wish TPTB would let us do a day at a charity but we have to do anything like that on our own time
      (Personally, I volunteer at two different charities throughout the year so it doesn’t bother me (much) to not do something specifically for winter holidays

  153. Anne*

    Happy Friday Everyone!

    A couple years ago, I was laid off from a job that I absolutely LOVED after working there for 10 years. Luckily, I found another job pretty quickly, and it seemed like a stellar opportunity. Well, it turned out to be a complete nightmare. My boss was highly toxic – she made working there absolutely miserable. I was constantly stressed out, doing the work of 3 people, and some of her job to boot! After a year and a half (I tried to stay at least two years, I really did), I accepted a local government job.

    Which, even though it was a pay cut, still seemed like a good move, given the benefits and the fact they liked to promote from within, not to mention a lot less stress. Four months into the job, our manager announced there would be budget cuts starting next year, which would increase the following year. The silver lining is all positions for our department are funded for next year, so that least gives me some time.

    I have already applied for a few jobs, with no success. The only call back I received zeroed in on my short time here (just under a year), but he understood when I explained the situation. So, I’m really concerned that employers are looking at my resume thinking, ‘uh-oh – job hopper’. Is there a way to get around this?

    My work history before the nightmare job was pretty stable – 10 years at the awesome job, then two 2.5 year stints (one was a layoff, the other a grant-funded, temporary position). I have never been fired, and have always gotten positive evaluations and references. Should I note something in my cover letter as to why I’m looking? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Effie*

      My work history definitely comes across as job-hoppy, and I think it’s a good idea to preemptively address in cover letters. So I think you have the right idea with making a brief mention in your cover letter of why you’re looking.

      1. Anne*

        Thanks Effie! Yeah, it’s frustrating – I was so excited to get a government job because of the stability and pension (I have spoken to several people who have worked here for 20 or 30 years), and this happens. Ugh.

        I’ll definitely be sure to mention in my cover letter why I’m looking. I’m keeping an eye out for positions within the government as well – that way I won’t look as job-hoppy.

        Have a great weekend!

  154. Jen RO*

    How casual is too casual for an interviewer?

    As part of my job, I participate in screening candidates for my boss. I work in a large multinational company and the local branch is pretty casual – most people are Facebook friends, most people basically live in jeans (I haven’t seen a suit since the last manager visited from another country), we don’t shy away from swearing, there is a lot of socializing outside work etc. For the record, this is very common in my country, especially in software companies (which we are), but most candidates we see have never worked in a corporate environment.

    So when I interview, I am just myself – I don’t dress up, I don’t use corporate speak, I talk about the bad parts of the job too, I make mistakes (like forget what I was about to ask), I talk about less professional things (I play World of Warcraft and I discuss it if the candidate is also a player). My thinking is: if someone is afraid of the corporate world (like I was before this job), they will see that we are humans; if someone is expecting something more formal, they get to self-select out, because we won’t suddenly start wearing suits.

    Would something like this put you off? Compared to other interviews I’ve been to, I think I am definitely on the casual side… but it’s difficult for me to put myself in the candidate’s position and see how I come across.

      1. Jen RO*

        I… wouldn’t even register that. I’ve seen more than one “one tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor” t-shirt in our office and it wasn’t even the weirdest one.

    2. Allypopx*

      If that’s a realistic reflection of your culture I think it’s fine. If that would put people off, they probably wouldn’t be happy working there. Personally I like being able to tell that my interview is just a slot in someone’s day because I can get a realistic read on their composure/demeanor/attitude and that tells me a lot about the job and the environment, as opposed to interviewers who are on their best interview behavior. I think you’re good.

    3. CM*

      For an interviewer, I think that’s totally fine and like you said, people who prefer a more formal environment will self-select out. I think I would appreciate it as a realistic glimpse into what the culture is like.

      At first I skimmed and thought you were an interviewee, with major chutzpah.

      1. Jen RO*

        Well, I’m honestly not much different when I am in the interviewee position! I am lucky enough to be in a field with very few qualified candidates, so I can afford to be picky. I act like a slightly more polished version of myself (i.e. no swearing), but that’s it. I wouldn’t want to work in a formal environment, so I am actually happy to get rejected because of that.

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      In tech? Nope, I’d expect something like this. I dress similarly when I’m asked to be on an interview panel for my team. I want to give the person we’re interviewing an accurate impression of our office. (On a normal day, I dress a step up from jeans-and-tshirt, but that’s a personal preference – most of my colleagues will be wearing jeans-and-tshirt.)

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I just had an interview with a tech company. The interview guidance on dress code was “most people are in jeans and t-shirts, wear whatever you will be comfortable in” and heavily implied that anything above business casual would be a little out of place. I wore a nice sweater, dark jeans, and black boots, and I think all of my interviewers were in jeans with button-down shirts or nicer t-shirts (no graphics). My impression is that was their normal level of dress, not upgraded due to interviewing candidates.

    5. Nan*

      I’ve interviewed people in yoga pants (just back from knee surgery and real pants wouldn’t go over the wrappings) and also in my Halloween and Christmas pajamas and slippers (it was spirit week and holiday week). As a leader, I’m expected to participate in these things. If you don’t like the company culture and my jammies, you can show yourself the door. It’s over there.

      Normally, I interview people in jeans. It’s our day to day wear around here.

  155. Delusions of Blandeur*

    Weird interview questions, anyone? I’m normally an ace at interviews, but was really thrown during one when my interviewer asked me, “What do people DISlike about you?”

    This was over a year ago so I’m not looking for advice — more just for confirmation that this was strange and for other war stories!

    2. Jimbo*

      I was asked in an interview a couple of months ago: “Which popular tv show character do you identify with and why?” I thought that was pretty bizarre and completely unrelated to the position I was applying to

    3. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      I can’t remember the exact wording of the question, but it was something like “which are cooler, ninjas or pirates?” Which ended up being fairly relevant (oddly) and I don’t begrudge them asking it. It was a fun way to get at something they wanted to talk about anyway.

    4. Effie*

      I did have an interviewer say at the end of the interview, “Impress me.” Like, we’ve gone through your on-paper qualifications, you’ve done well on the skills test, now – do something extra-special to convince me to offer you this position!

      I was so overwhelmed I cried.

    5. Liane*

      I don’t have any, but where are HR people and hiring managers getting their interview questions nowadays? Off those Facebook quizzes? Because “Which popular tv show character do you identify with and why?” & “which are cooler, ninjas or pirates?” sure remind me of some of the FB quizzes I’ve seen or taken.

  156. NewHire*

    I was just recently hired on as a legal assistant! I am thrilled. I have been with my current company for 8 years and very ready for the new challenge. I start next Monday. This question is about wardrobe and attire.

    Even though I will be working for an attorney, during my interview, everyone was very casually dressed (except me, of course). Picture jeans, sweaters, the lawyer himself had a zip-up hoodie over a flannel. The town I live in is in pretty casual overall, but every time I think “law firm” I think formal business attire. The way the interview was conducted was casual, the way he offered the job was casual too — so casual that I received no further instruction once I accepted the job.

    He said himself he is a very easy going boss. I don’t want to seem naive or bothersome by asking him what the dress code is, or if there even is one.

    Do you think it is safe to show up on my first day in a button up cardigan, black pants, booties with hair and make-up done? I was waaaaay overdressed for my interview wearing slacks and matching blazer. The outgoing assistant was wearing blue jeans and an oversized sweater. Or, should I just bite the bullet and ask him if there a dress code he’d prefer me to follow?

    1. CM*

      For your first day, that sounds perfect — a little nicer than casual, but not so nice you look formal and out of place. Besides, if you’re dressed a little nicer than everyone else on your first day, I think that’s pretty normal and shows you’re taking the job seriously. You can see what everybody else wears and start dressing down after the first couple of days.

  157. Bea*

    I have become burnt out in under a year. My job exploded from busy but manageable with understanding grateful ownership to being written up for not getting everything done when they want it done. I’m a bookkeeper and have ended up being given the entire office to manage (doable), then the warehouse manager quit and they gave me that too. So it’s been all about herding cats and putting in 50+ hour weeks for no additional pay of course. They keep pulling my limited office staff onto special(frankly BS project) and leaving me with all the phones and Customers. Then wonder why I can’t finish a monthly close.

    I have an interview this afternoon with someone who is excited about my experience. I’m stuck in a hell spot where my heart tells me when I resign I do so without notice but the professional side says that I should do it right. I will never use these toxic people for a reference, I’ve cited need to be able to balance work and personal life and all the interviewers are shocked at the idea someone with accounting and administrative talent is being worked to a breaking point. So thank God I seem to be handling the “why are you leaving?” question well!

    1. CM*

      I’ve heard Alison give the advice that once you give notice, you can feel free to say that you’re only going to work strictly 40-hour weeks and will be busy with transition activities so can’t take on major projects. If you really don’t care about burning bridges, you could still quit without notice, or split the difference and give them a week.

      1. Bea*

        Thank you for the tidbit about 40hrs and only doing the dailies, no extra work! That makes sense and to be honest at notice, if they start yelling at me or crafting another session where they write me up for things that were resolved 6 months ago. I’ll just walk out.

        I’m leaning towards this because the bridge is no longer there. I do not thrust them to ever give me a good reference given our recent turbulence.

        1. Liane*

          yes, Alison also says, that when you’re working out a notice, if things go downhill–from typically unreasonable to downright abusive–it is fine to say, “I need to be treated respectfully during my notice. If you cannot, then I think today should be my last day.”

          1. Bea*

            Oh heck yes! Rule #1 when I give notice is that if they start picking at me or raise their voices, I walk out. I also just realized my biggest concern is that my next employer will be put off if I don’t tell them I need 2 weeks notice. I was talking to my mom and thought “I could just take an unpaid week off, nobody needs to know that if it were to happen.”

    2. partypants*

      yeah, I got chastised today becasue I wasn’t focusing all my energy and time into working on the audit issues despite the fact that only one person can remote into the software we need to use right now (we had a massive software crash and are recreating everything for the audit that started 2 months ago).

      There is literally nothing I can be doing with the audit until I can get onto the remote terminal and even then, we discovered it was missing a program I needed. ARGGHHHHHHHHHH Help me to not walk out today!!

      And people,SAVE, BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP! Even if it’s not your job, not your software, and you are just the pee(d)-on in your department – make sure your work is being backed up & sent to the cloud!!!!!!!!!!

      1. Bea*

        I’d be livid if I was in your shoes, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that garbage!!

        I hope that the chastising was just in passing and they didn’t actually write it up and put it in your file. That’s what happened to me. I’ve never in my life been written up, it’s so unnecessary. Nobody else gets written up, they’re just pissed at me and scrapping up reasons.

  158. Bantha Pudu*

    I’ll preface this by saying I’m a liberal person working in a traditionally conservative institution, knew it when I took the job, and have been impressed with the general lack of political discussions in the workplace during my time here. My boss and I are both women in a male-dominated environment. I have the utmost respect for her from a professional standpoint- she’s a tireless advocate for her team and is honestly responsible for me being hired in the first place. We work seamlessly together.

    That being said, we’re nearly polar opposites in our political leanings, and she holds some beliefs that I find frankly vile. On the rare occasions that they seep into the office, it’s like she becomes a hateful newspaper comment section in human form (most egregiously, telling another colleague about her husband’s excitement at starting a new job because it was at a ‘Muslim-free zone’). The other morning I made an off-hand comment about the Weinstein, Moore, et al, situations, and she launched into a rant about false accusations and women’s fashion, and that if women are going to ‘tease’ men with their bodies, they have to ‘accept some of the responsibility for what happens to them.’ I must have been shaking my head in disagreement, because she snapped, “Oh, so you don’t think I’m entitled to my opinion?” It’s weighed on me ever since.

    Obviously the best way to win is to not play, so I’ll keep my mouth shut about nearly every non-work related topic from now on, but how have you reconciled working with someone who you respect professionally but not so much personally?

    1. Arrogant supplier, help!*

      That must be terrible, I am so sorry you have to go through this. I am in a very similar position but I can’t offer much advice, only sympathy.
      Is it possible to ask everyone to keep politics out of the office? Or maybe ask rh to circulate a memo to avoid political discussions?
      To me it is very frustrating to think that our wellbeing and very life are considered “political” issues up to debate… But maybe it would be better that having to actively dodge this conversations all the time.

    2. NorCalPM*

      Yes, I’ve reconciled it. I focus on the work and tune out the rest. I had to work closely with a guy in IT security who was a vocal climate change denier. But he was good at his job. So when he ran his mouth about climate change, I just tuned it out and thought about work-related issues I needed to address, nodding occasionally or saying “uh huh.”

      When his lips stopped moving, I re-focused the interaction on our work. Grey rock, I suppose. Bottom line was I just didn’t give a rip about his ridiculous opinions, and it’s not my job to get to the bottom of his ignorance and make him see reason. He’s one of millions, and you probably can’t change them. Such regressive views are largely emotion-based, and that’s almost an impossible nut to crack. Don’t take it personally, and don’t engage. It’s like arguing with a two-year-old; they’ll just throw a tantrum or sulk.

  159. Petra*

    My position was newly created and I work with one other person, “Elodie”. Elodie is in her 60s and might
    retire soon or in the near future. I was hired to help her out, but lately I feel like she is dumping stuff
    on me. When I go in the office to work on something, Elodie will be online surfing the net or talking to her
    friends- I can’t say that she isn’t working, but when something comes in, she seems to dump it on me.

    I know that she might have other stuff to do or might be overwhelmed, but she then talks about how busy she
    was before I came… it seems like she’s using that as an excuse to not work or something.

    Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      I think generally it’s not advisable to worry about whether your co-worker is working or surfing; it’s whether you can do the job you’re supposed to do and are being compensated fairly for it. So does Elodie’s behavior keep you from getting stuff done? Then that could be worth a conversation, first with her and then with a manager. Does this mean you’re working more hours, harder tasks, higher grade than what you signed on for? Then that can be worth a conversation with your manager or a look around for a next place to go.

      (How long have you been in this position, btw? It sounds from your above post that you might be fairly new; I would wait to have any conversations, if it were worth doing so, until either things were inarguably egregious or I had a little bit of tenure built up.)

    2. NorCalPM*

      Yes. Most of the time, when somebody writes in to Dear Prudence, I wish Slate had some kind of auto-redirect to send the question here instead. Because Prudie, although she’s clearly well-meaning, gives some truly clueless workplace advice.

      1. Liane*

        Once in a while, she’ll mention AAM as a resource or quote Alison on a similar situation; the next job question, her advice is something I am sure if Alison sees it, she’ll have kittens over it.

  161. NacSacJack*

    I need your help. TL; DR: Should I let my boss know how I feel about my job? The full truth? Or is this considered whining?

    I get up at 6am every weekday to meet with offshore. I have meetings again at 730 & 8, sometime even 830. I don’t get an opportunity to start getting ready until I’m done with emails close to 9am. Then I get myself and my dogs ready and drive into work, often picking up breakfast on the way in because the cafeteria is closed to breakfast by 930am. Everyone else is already at work, both at this location and at corporate. For years, I’m missed all the morning camaraderie. What I’ve noticed is my co-workers either have SOs or dogs at home, so they can get here early, but most of them dont have 6am phone calls and definitely no one at corporate has 6am phone calls. I miss hallway conversations beause I sit here and not at corporate. I often skip lunch hour because I consider my time getting ready and driving in to be my lunch hour. I eat lunch at my desk. I dont work out at the company gym even though I have a membership because that a) takes away another hour (we’re supposed to work out on our lunch hour or after work) and b) oftentimes have to follow up with corporate on matters before they go home at 4pm my time, while I continue to work until 500 or 530. When I do go home, I have to, ummm, clean up after the dogs, decide what to make for dinner, if anything, and often fall asleep for a couple hours.

    This affects me, my health, my dogs, the condition of my house and my social life.

    Am I missing something here? Should i keep quiet? Earlier this fall, my boss encouraged me to leave at 4pm, but the work has got to get done or has to be handed off with instructions to offshore.

    All this with no possibility of promotions, more money, bonuses or lateral transfers.

    2. CM*

      Ideally, I think you’d have some ideas about how to fix this before going to your boss. But even if you don’t, I think it’s valid. I would present it to your boss not as, “This is a bad situation for you to fix,” but instead as, “My schedule is out of sync with everybody else’s and it’s affecting me in [x] ways. I’m not sure how to fix it and I was wondering if you have any suggestions.”

      Reading your comment, I’m not sure exactly how it’s affecting you or what you want. So it might be worth figuring out what your ideal situation would look like before talking to your boss.

      There were a few different things you mentioned. Here are some ideas. Missing camaraderie and hallway conversations — could that be fixed by occasionally scheduling coffees or lunches with people? Not eating lunch or working out because you feel like you don’t have time — is it possible that you actually could do those things, and reschedule your work a little bit to accommodate them? The condition of your house and your dogs — if you’re coming in late anyway after putting in a few hours at home, can you spend some time in the morning on personal stuff after you finish your calls and before coming in? You also said that the work has to either be done or be handed off with instructions offshore — could you build in some time at the end of each day to write up those instructions and hand off the work?

    3. fposte*

      In general, I’m against telling bosses how you feel and all about asking bosses to do something. What do you want your boss to do? Can the responsibility of liaising with corporate be shared with somebody else or be moved, at least sometimes, to different hours in the day.

      However, it sounds like your boss already did one thing–told you to leave earlier–and you felt that that wasn’t something the job allowed you to do. I see two main possibilities here: 1) you’re wrong, and you will never let go enough to ease up your life whatever your boss says, and 2) you’re right, and your job isn’t going to change and your choice is to accept it or walk away from it (or some overlap of the two). That last line makes me think this isn’t a job that will ever be satisfactorily fixed. If that’s true, what do you want to do?

    4. Fictional Butt*

      I think you should talk to your boss, because it seems like there might be differences in how you understand your job vs. how your boss understands it. E.g. “I often skip lunch hour because I consider my time getting ready and driving in to be my lunch hour,”– why? Everyone else gets ready in the morning and drives in and also takes lunch, so why do you consider that to be your lunch hour?

      To be honest, I am pretty confused by your description of the situation. It sounds like the main problem is that your work schedule is different from your coworkers’ because of the early morning meetings. Maybe you don’t understand what hours are actually considered to be part of your workday? That is definitely something to discuss with your boss.

      As for the dogs… again, I’m confused by your description, but is the problem that the dogs are pooping in your house because you are away for so long? While I think it’s important for you to generally address your long hours with your boss, I don’t think I would bring up this specific issue. This might be the problem that motivates you to try finding a different schedule, but it’s not your boss’s problem to fix.

    5. Nan*

      Are these phone meetings? Can you do them in the car? Or are there visuals involved? If you have a (presumably, the way I read) non face to face meeting at 7:30. Why not get up at 5, and be at work by 7? Then you can breakfast with everyone else and check emails while you’re on the phone? Then, take a lunch, and go home on time most days. Commute time is something most people have, that’s not part of my workday, for sure. Maybe hire a dog sitter? Not sure if that’s possible for you.

      The way I see, from the outside looking in, is that it’s limitations you’re putting on yourself. Multitask the phones and emails, go in earlier to leave earlier, and take advantage of the commute time if you can.

  162. Lissa*

    Anyone ever work (volunteer, school etc.) with someone who has said something about themselves that is like…polar opposite of what you/others see? I mean, there’s the usual people who talk about how great they are at multitasking (spoiler alert, nearly everyone thinks they’re better than they are at that) but then just some where it’s actually hard to keep a straight face.

    Fairly mundane but like, an employee comes in half an hour late and says “Oh, so sorry I’m late, I’m usually such a punctual person!” Nope, this person is late like twice a week.

    Recently I had one of these come up in a volunteer organization and it was hard not to look boggled. Basically there’s this dynamic that sometimes happens I’ve noticed where you have a group of mostly women, and a dude comes in and kind of takes over, often getting a good response from the women, but suddenly it’s like All Tim all the Time. (I just cut out a huge rant about this behavior but anyway). So the other day Tim started expounding on how it’s really important to let women speak, how terrible mansplainers are, white men are terrible (he’s a white man) about taking over discussions etc. I was just Like…DUDE ITS YOU in my head, like you are literally doing that thing. Right now. Aaaaghhh. (also, like everyone loves Tim. he is super naturally charismatic/engaging and is full of funny stories. I once made a very light comment about Tim kind of taking over discussions, and pretty much everyone jumped to his defense and told me how funny/awesome Tim was, so…all I can do is be quietly annoyed, heh.)

    1. Havarti*

      I have learned that there are people who live in their own reality. And yes, it doesn’t really line up with the reality most other people are experiencing. And yes, I too got no support when I pointed that out once. So I feel your pain and I’m sorry. :(

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s got to be some version of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Tim sounds like a Nice GuyTM. I think it’s generally true that if someone has to tell you who she is (instead of just showing you), then she’s usually asserting what she wishes were true instead of what is. Don’t beware of feminist men. Beware of men who need to loudly declare how feminist they are. Don’t beware of people who are on time. Beware of people who talk about how on time they are.

    3. CM*

      Ugh, I was going to say, “Say that out loud instead of just in your head!” But it sucks that everybody else loves Tim and you don’t. It’s rare that I really can’t stand somebody, and I find it so hard to be in that situation where I’m the only one thinking “JUST STOP TALKING RIGHT NOW” and everybody else is hanging on their every word.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah, and I don’t even hate Tim or anything! He’s actually super hilarious and has *great* stories. But the dynamic sometimes seriously seems like..oh, now everybody gather around for TIM! So I’ll often see Tim with what looks like several adoring female fans just listening to him talk, and it makes me cringe. I think this is really a matter of a lot of subconscious shit – nobody realizes they are affording Tim more respect because he’s male, Tim assumes people are responding to him entirely on his own merits (and that’s part of it!) and it just gets kind of…ugh.

  163. Lynca*

    We have a reduced staff and I’m working several projects with tight deadlines. Plus I’m pregnant so I’m feeling like crap.

    This is my third revision for this report and it feels like the guidelines for what is acceptable are changing without notifying the staff. We have traditionally not included testing for certain kinds of reports. No one had informed me that Supervisor expects every report to have testing. And that we had to ask permission to wave that! I’ve worked here 10 years and this has never come up on any other project I’ve done for this Office. So I know that the issue isn’t that I’ve forgotten something. I feel like this is something he feels should be done X way, he’s always done it X way, and that’s obviously the only way to do it.

    And I don’t have a problem with changing to accommodate that. It’s not a huge deal. It’s the not knowing that was expected that is sending me spiralling.

    I literally want to cry, throw up, go home, have a panic attack etc. but I know I’ll probably stay late today working over to try to get more work done. He at least sent out an email outlining what was expected. But I felt like I was crazy talking to this supervisor who was insisting “This is how I was taught here and it’s always been done this way” when that’s not been my experience. I literally don’t know how to handle this.

    1. CM*

      Welcome to my working life!
      Sigh… my only advice is to go along with it, and when you get a chance ask very explicit questions about what is expected, and then follow up with a confirming email. Not that it will help when he insists a few days later that obviously, what you need to do is the exact opposite. But at least it will remind you that you’re not crazy.

  164. miyeritari*

    I work in an open office with 12 other people. As it’s 12 people, sometimes we talk to each other in real life, both about office stuff and about non-office stuff.

    My CEO is one of those people. Sometimes, if some conversation happens, he’ll stare at the talking group until they notice and then they become silent. He’s occasionally been like “Sorry, I just need complete silence to work.”

    Buddy, you work in an office with 11 other people.

    It got so bad the office manager took up the crusade of convincing him to get noise cancelling headphones. She confided to me this was a LONG process. FINALLY she got him to put some on. OH MY GOD. IT’S HEROIC. JESUS NO MORE CEO PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE GLARES AND UNCOMFORTABLE SILENCE AND ANXIOUSLY WONDERING IF IT’S OKAY TO ASK A COWORKER A QUESTION!

    He sent out a company-wide email that basically said: “Hey! If the office is too loud for you, try these amazing noise cancelling headphones! I was skeptical, but they put me in a wonderfully zen mode! Thanks so much to Office Manager for convincing me!”

    And we all lived happily ever after.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      He’s occasionally been like “Sorry, I just need complete silence to work.”

      So do many people. Perhaps the CEO should invest in not having an open office plan?

      1. miyeritari*

        We’re probably moving from our current office in the next year or so, so any serious remodeling isn’t worthwhile. I’ve already put in my cube request for the next office.

    3. special snowflake*

      I love that the CEO is stuck in the midst of the open office with the rest of you! Usually they’re off in an office pretending everything is great.

  165. Need a Job in Retail (or something)*

    I’ve been looking for a job for eight months without luck. I never particularly wanted to work in retail but right now it’s looking like my best option. My only problem? I can’t even get a call back. I have a few years’ experience working in IT (but I don’t have certifications so I’m not having any luck with jobs here) and a letter of recommendation. I know my references are good, but I can’t even get to the interview stage.

    Is there a secret? I’ve just been applying online…should I be going in person? Is it just bad luck? Is my experience in IT counting against me? Why can’t I get an interview??

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Q*

      Find a place that still accepts paper applications, probably. Those online questionnaires are oftentimes impossible to pass.

    2. Effie*

      A lot of places are hiring for the holidays, and they often have signs in the window saying so. These places may still accept paper applications.

      In 2011-2012 I applied to a LOT of retail positions and it took me about 7 months to get one. I know it can be discouraging, feeling like you can’t even get a crappy part-time retail position. Try not to take it personally.

      If you have an acquaintance working in a retail position, and that person is willing to recommend you, it can fast-track/leapfrog your application. When I was working in retail I definitely recommended people for positions before. It doesn’t have to be a close friend, just someone who knows you’ll be on time and won’t no-call no-show.

      This may be common sense, but if you apply to a place like Nordstrom, and it comes to the online questionnaire, answer all the ethical (like is stealing ever ok) questions with “never acceptable”. Do not use “sometimes acceptable” or any of the other answers. They’re not looking for philosophical discussions, they’re trying to weed out people who might steal, etc.

      Hope this helps. Good luck!

  166. Just a thought*

    Does anyone have tips for faking confidence and not letting difficult people intimidate you?

    I just had my performance review and I apparently did so well on a project for a difficult manager that he’s putting me on his other projects. He’s a pretty difficult person to work with. My first meeting with him to present my plan for the work, he nodded a few times, spaced out and stared at the floor, then started talking to everyone else in the meeting about a completely different topic. He also has given one word answers to questions, doesn’t like to follow set processes, and you have to “earn his confidence” or whatever. My manager told me to get more confident with working with him, but didn’t have good advice on how to do that.

    1. Daria Grace*

      Sometimes it helps to depersonalise it by pretending you’re all actors in a bad sitcom. Think like they’re not reacting to you personally, they’re just an actor playing a very badly written part.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      You were specifically requested by this manager? Sounds like whatever you did worked. Keep going on that and fake it until you make it.

  167. Daria Grace*

    I need help working out if this behavior from a co-worker I sit near (whom I don’t manage) is something I can say anything about. Everyone has to occasionally make personal calls or look something up non-work related online but she takes it to the extreme. For large portions of the day she’s making personal calls to various companies she uses about problems she has with them or chatting to family members. She’s good enough at talking very quietly into the phone that the manager probably hasn’t noticed. She’s also been applying for jobs elsewhere from work computers

    Normally I’d consider this not my business but the rest of us are currently trying to make the managers realise how unreasonable and stressful their work expectations are. I’m worried that my managers will think it can’t be that bad if they find out what my co-worker is doing. I know she’s also recently made a very serious customer impacting mistake that you’re very unlikely to make if you’re actually focusing on the work.

    1. Angie B.*

      I don’ t think it’s any of your business. And I say this as someone who has max 2 hours of work to do per day, so I spend most of my time online.

        1. Angie B.*

          Other people in my office are busier than I am. I don’t think it matters. Maybe your coworker has a light load. I’m sure it’s annoying but I don’t think it’s your say, especially since you’re not her boss.

          A good example is my coworker (we have the same boss) is insanely busy but that’s the nature of her position. She has a job that is constantly busy and she works more than 40 hours a week and I do not.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      The general rule of thumb about informing your boss about your co-workers’ problematic behaviors is whether what they’re doing (or not doing) affects your own workflow negatively (slowing you down by making you re-do some of their work or finishing some of the steps they skipped, or stops your work entirely b/c they’re routinely keeping you waiting for that thing you need before you can move forward). In your case, *if* she’s not slowing you down, or preventing you from getting any of your own work done, and if it’s possible to ignore the phone calls with a set of earplugs and/or headphones, then you probably don’t have the standing to mention anything. As far as applying for other jobs with the company computer, though, for all you know, someone else (possibly your supervisor, possibly the IT dept.) may be monitoring that already without her knowledge, so she may already be in trouble. If you can find a way to ignore it, work will be so much easier to handle.

  168. Starley*

    Have you ever received a gift at work from management that you actually liked? We have about $25 per person to spend and are stumped for what to get this year. Alcohol and cash/gift cards are out due to some rules we can’t get around, and they are already getting extra time off. Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Effie*

      Wow, that’s tricky. What about socks? Would that be ridiculously inappropriate? I feel like you can’t go wrong with comfy cotton socks on a personal level. They’re gender-neutral, useful, and easily regiftable if you hate socks. The owner of a dance studio I worked at gave everyone socks with the studio’s logo on it for Christmas one year.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Another vote for socks. I don’t wear shoes in my house, so I love fuzzy socks. Bonus points if they’re skid-proof!

      2. Starley*

        This is a really great idea! It gets really cold/snowy here so maybe this along with a nice hat/scarf like Nanc suggested below might make a good wintery gift basket.

    2. Manders*

      Stuff that gets consumed/used up tends to make a useful gift. You can go with snacks, chocolate trays, or baking kits if you’re reasonably certain that everyone in the office has no allergies or food restrictions. There’s also hand lotions and similar products that are nice to have but not too expensive. And gift cards to places like Starbucks are always welcome.

      I personally am not a fan of branded swag being treated like a “gift” from management, especially if there’s pressure in the office to wear or display it. So long as you stay away from that, and you aren’t presenting the employee with a fatal nut allergy with a tray of nuts, I think it’s hard to go wrong.

      1. Starley*

        Yeah, we wanted to stay away from food/drink partially for that reason. It’s too hard to know who has restrictions and we’d hate to get a gift that 99 people loved and one person couldn’t enjoy, and there’s just no way we could know in advance that that might happen.

        We definitely aren’t doing branded swag, the committee putting this together was agreed on that. It seemed a little…tacky maybe? Or patronizing? I’m not sure what word I’m looking for, exactly.

    3. Nanc*

      No cash or gift cards?! Huh. Is it only physical gift cards or could you give e-cards/e-gift certificates to Amazon? Even if someone doesn’t use Amazon on a regular basis they can probably find something to buy.

      Nice water bottles? Nice commuter mugs? Are you in a cold area–maybe a jaunty scarf or gloves (although gloves have a size issue). As other folks have mentioned, chocolates or something edible. $25 each should buy some pretty nice ones ones. Heavy duty reusable shopping bags? Everyone could get 2 or 3 in different sizes, that would hit the $25 range I would think.

      1. Lynca*

        I want to second travel mugs or water bottles. I have a nice metal bottle that I put a lanyard on that I take everywhere.

      1. The Luidaeg*

        I like receiving cool bookmarks — always useful (and if you get a packet of magnetic ones, even better). Maybe a packet of bookmarks and a travel mug? I suppose I’m just thinking of how nice it is to settle in with a hot cocoa and a good book . . .

        I second the re-usable shopping bags. Good for all sorts of things (including loading up on books, of course).

    5. NewBoss2016*

      One year everyone got pies that were catered from a local bakery, and they all thought that was the coolest thing ever. I don’t like pie, but I was pretty stoked to have one to take to my family for the holidays. Other things that were big hits were nice beanie hats, yeti cups (there are much cheaper versions like RTIC and Ozark that would fit the budget and are nice), socks/gloves, fleece blankets, and poinsettia plants. A vendor send us a box of fidget spinners and people were fighting over them. LOL. My team raids my promo closet for hand sanitizer and candy, so that must be pretty popular–maybe something nice they could use at their desk?

      1. NewBoss2016*

        Oh wow, and I know this is not helpful, but one year we gave out mini car/purse first aid kits (makes sense for our industry), and that was probably the most well-received thing we have ever given away. They were SOOO excited. I really did not expect that reaction.

        1. Kerr*

          I love this idea! First aid kits, stuff to help if you’re stranded on the side of the road? I would love a mini multitool and flashlight as part of this.

      2. Artemesia*

        I had 7 secretarial staff that assisted me but also many others and not a huge salary but I liked to get them a little something for the holidays and for AA day. The things that got the best response were fancy items of food they could take home to their families. (double bang — they could use it but also it was a visible badge of appreciation for their families i.e. boss gave me this) One of the biggest hits was a box of clementines for each. Other years I would get fancy loaf cakes like you would use at brunch, or fancy loaves of olive bread from the local artisanal baker. I had one secretary who was diabetic and so I always got her something appropriate if I were getting sweets like cake or candy or cookies; she appreciated getting the fruit thing and that I remembered.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Why can’t you just give them the $25? I’d rather have the money, honestly. It’s not enough for something really good but enough to throw at a bill or something.

      1. Red Reader*

        I would guess restrictions on anything cash- or cash-like (such as gift cards) having to be taxed appropriately. Our management isn’t allowed to give anything like that that comes out of the official budget – my manager gives everyone on the team a $10-15 gift card to someplace she knows they’ll like out of her own pocket though. A previous manager sent everyone a $10 gift card from the budget and got in big trouble for it with HR.

    7. Colette*

      I got a small blanket one Christmas. It was warm and fuzzy, and lives in my cubicle to this day for those days when we transition from air conditioning to heating. It’s the perfect size to wrap in without it getting caught in my chair wheels.

    8. H.C.*

      Those Swell-type double-walled thermos bottles or cups that can keep things hot or cold for a whole work day!

    10. Ramona Flowers*

      Sorry – you also said no gift cards and I missed it. Hmm.

      I once volunteered somewhere that booked everyone one spa treatment as a thank you. You just had to ring up and pick (I think it was a choice of two types of massage) and book your day and time. That was excellent.

    11. Piano Girl*

      We would receive company swag every year for Christmas. My gifts include a blanket that has sherpa on one side (my family fights over that one), re-usable shopping bags, a large canvas travel bag, a jacket, and a camping chair. Throughout the year we would get drink cups, mugs, a insulated lunch bag, etc, etc. I also won an chef’s apron and hat as part of a team-building activity. Last year we all got cash, which was wonderful.

    12. NDR*

      Does it need to be actual gifts? Personally, I’d rather have the office get a nice coffee break, breakfast, or lunch a couple of times. Maybe one during the actual holiday season then save a second one for bleak mid-February to break up the winter. If coordinating food in your office is dicey, then ignore this idea. :)

      A magazine subscription of each employee’s choosing might be nice, if coordinating that wouldn’t be super unwieldy.

  169. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    How do you apply for an internal promotion?

    There’s a position open in another part of my company that would be a pretty big step up for me (enough that I’m intimidated to apply, as it is a reach) and I don’t have any idea how to go about applying for the job. I mean, of course I know I submit my resume and cover letter–but how do you navigate the internal politics? Do I tell my manager that I’m applying? (She will not be happy–but I imagine that she’d rather hear it from me than through the company grapevine?) I’m nervous to tell her especially if I don’t get the job, as then she will know that I feel I’ve outgrown my current position. Do I try to figure out who the hiring manager is so I can better tailor my cover letter to the job? Do I seek out support from other people in the org? It feels like a minefield because I think most of the people I work with would be disappointed that I’m looking to move on from my current position, but I don’t want that reluctance to see me change roles impact my current working relationships, especially if I don’t end up getting the role.

    Some details: Been in my current position at my company almost 2 years; Fortune 500 company; current job is at a subsidiary, the job I’d like to apply for the corporate organization.

  170. Effie*

    I had a really good interview session yesterday (I think it’s the best interview I’ve ever had, so even if I don’t get this position it was really good practice/training for interviewing). The person who coordinated the interviews emailed me back (I sent her a follow-up/thank you email yesterday after everything) saying I could expect to hear from her next week regarding next steps! I know it’s still premature to celebrate, so I am remaining cautiously optimistic.

  171. Petra*

    Is this typical office behavior? : Everyone is complaining about people leaving early or not working, but they then do the same thing?

    I’ve only worked in offices for a short while, but this one seems slightly toxic?

    1. publicista*

      In my experience – yes, typical. Mostly because they know their own reason for doing those things, but likely don’t know the reasons for other people. They just think “slacking off.”

    2. fposte*

      Or just cranky, which I don’t think rises to the same level.

      But you’ve posted a few times about this job today and you seen uncomfortable with it generally–how new is it? Are you feeling okay otherwise? It may be a really bad fit for you, or it may be that first-week nerves or similar issues are making you overread the negatives.

  172. publicista*

    I need some advice about a slightly odd situation I find myself in. After seven years with my current employer, I accepted a job offer at another company. I’m really thrilled about this job, because it’s a company I’ve always wanted to work for, but I only had one call with HR, and one in-person interview with my boss-to-be. It was only 30 minutes, and after that I met with another member of the team (not the boss’s boss, just a colleague-to-be). Everyone I’ve met with was incredibly nice and the job is exactly what I want it to be, so when I received a job offer from HR two days later, I happily accepted after negotiating some things. They told me they were moving fast, but I thought two days after a singular job interview was INCREDIBLY fast, and I expressed my shock at that. HR basically told me that the hiring manager said I was “the one” so he didn’t want to wait. Seemed like a little bit of an exaggeration, but whatever. Decided to just chalk it up to them wanting someone in the position ASAP.

    However…after I accepted the job offer, I checked with my references and it seems they were never called. I also reached out to my boss-to-be just to express my excitement at joining the team after I accepted a week ago – and I’ve had no response. I’ve been back and forth with HR a few times – filling out forms for background checks, employee handbook stuff, etc., but have heard absolutely nothing from my new manager.

    Thoughts on all of this? Does this seem terribly out of the ordinary? My 7-year job that I’m leaving is the only post-college job I’ve had, so I’m sad to say I don’t have too much experience with accepting job offers.

    1. CAA*

      Lots of people don’t check references, and it’s completely normal not to hear from the manager once you’ve accepted the offer. Overall, this is a little out of the ordinary, but not so strange that you should run the other way right now. It does tell you something about how these people make decisions though.

      I have hired people after talking to them for 30 minutes, especially if it was for a position that requires expertise in something I don’t know. In that case I’m relying on peer interviewers to assess technical skills, and I’m looking more for work ethic, attitude, communication, etc. 30 minutes is definitely on the short side, but if you also talked to other people and got all your questions answered, it’s not unheard of. Neither is the 2-day turnaround. They could be filling multiple positions as good candidates apply, or you could have gotten your application in near the end of their window. It doesn’t always take forever to make a hiring decision.

      1. publicista*

        Thanks very much for this response, it definitely made me feel a bit better. I think all I have to compare it to was when I accepted the job I’m currently at, and for that one the hiring manager called me directly to make the offer, so I was pretty well in touch with her.

        And good to know re: references!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I had a situation where I had a phone screen with recruiter, phone interview with hiring manager, on-site interview with a few people, and offer (verbal and writing) within 5 business days. They also gave me less than 48 hours to respond, and didn’t budge when I asked for more time. That speed was due to the fact that I applied near the end of their hiring window and they really needed to staff up ASAP. I turned it down because I had some pending interviews and it wasn’t a situation I could make a decision on as quickly as they needed.

      They also did not ask for references, although if I had accepted the offer I would have gone through a background check – both of those were not due to the speed of hiring for this specific posting, it doesn’t sound like reference checking is part of their process.

  173. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

    Here’s a bit of a light-hearted conundrum.
    Since my team has merged with a larger department, we’re having a Secret Santa. And I’ve picked a real toughy (not my boss though, so that’s a huge start!)
    The woman I’ve got has worked at the company for AGES, but pretty much all I know about her is that she’s SUPER diligent, works incredibly hard, and has a dog that she has to go home at lunchtime to let out.
    So, here’s my (obvious) question – what on earth do I get her for the Secret Santa? It’s a £10/$14 budget. And wine/proscecco probably isn’t an option.

    1. publicista*

      This happened to me first year as well! If there’s a colleague you trust that knows her a little better, ask them what they might suggest. I ended up getting mine a Target giftcard because I heard she shopped there a lot. It didn’t exactly change lives but it fit the bill!

    3. special snowflake*

      Could you do something dog themed? A mug with dogs and one of those page a day calendars with puppies on it?
      At least you know she likes the animal and they’re practical enough to be useful but easy to regift if she doesn’t like it?

    5. Daria Grace*

      Take a look at their desk for signs of their interests. Do them seem to really like cute stationary? Are they snacking on chocolate?

      1. The Luidaeg*

        How about something fun but useful? Post-its in fun shapes, etc. can be nice but also helpful to have on the desk. Try Etsy.com. Combining these with maybe some pretty pens or something?

    6. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Ooh, now I’m thinking of combining gloves with cute pens in each of the fingers, and rolling them in some slipper socks with some fun shaped post it notes in the cuffs! She’s one of the hardest people *ever* to read, but, given the co-workers in her immediate environment (we’re on different floors at the moment, the management and reporting move has happened before the physical desk move happens in the new year), she can definitely handle my brand of quirky-lite.
      Thanks! You guys are awesome – this is no longer feeling like the headscratcher it started with when I saw her name on the slip of paper!

  174. Anon anon anon*

    Good: I got a new job and my side business is becoming more official and more successful.

    Bad: I’m dealing with physical limitations that make my main income-generating job harder to do. It’s possible that it won’t be as much of an issue with the new job, but I’m looking into other options. I also need to stay somewhat low profile while dealing with a stalking type of situation (ugh). It seems like most employers in office type settings now list people on the company’s website and feature lots of pictures of the employees. Is it possible to avoid that? I want an office job where I just do my job and they don’t publicize my name and/or pictures of me. Or at least not without a conversation about it first. I’m open to it, but I want to find a work place where I’ll get to have some say in that sort of thing. I feel unemployable, but I’m making progress in the right direction.

    1. Daria Grace*

      It’s far from a universal practice. I’ve never been on the website of any company I worked at. Unless you’re a key contact person for people outside the company (eg. main media relations) person, if you ask politely it likely won’t be a problem to not be featured.

    2. onyxzinnia*

      My company had people sign an appearance release form but you could always opt out. Everyone is listed in the internal photo directory, but not to external people unless they’re public speakers.

    4. Anon anon anon*

      I think this is a regional / industry thing. In the past, it wasn’t an issue. During my last job, it became an issue. It’s my field and the stage of my career. I am looking to make a lateral move to a different kind of work, but that doesn’t change things. In this general arena, there’s a trend towards having a, “Meet the Teapot Makers!” section of the website and encouraging people to do things like blogging, speaking at conferences, etc. Which is great and completely makes sense. Aside from my own reservations. I guess I’ll apply to those companies anyway and then talk to them about it.

    5. NoTurnover*

      At most decent places, even if their entire website is plastered with pictures of employees, they will let you opt out if you explain there is a reason like this behind it. I don’t think you should worry about this unless the types of jobs you’re applying for are those where being “out there” personally is necessary–like CEO or, I’m not even sure, maybe certain types of PR? Even if lots of people need to contact you, it’s not too hard to keep your name out of it and use a more generalized email address.

  175. Kathleen*

    I just had my “annual” review – “annual” is in quotes deliberately because in fact, I haven’t been evaluated annually or even close to it. I’ve been at my current organization for 20+ years, and in that time I’ve been evaluated maybe five times.

    Anyway, it went fine, I am pretty sure. But does anybody have any suggestions for next year? E.g., how should I prepare?

    1. Kathleen*

      I feel a little goofy for asking this question – someone who’s been in the workforce as long as I have ought to know this stuff already. But I really haven’t been evaluated very often, and when I have, I can’t say that it’s been particularly helpful. It’s always just seemed like a chore that I need to get through from time to time, but it seems to me that it ought to be possible to make it more than that.

      1. Daria Grace*

        It’s not goofy. Some of my co-workers have been in the company 2 decades and sill don’t seem to know how to deal with performance reviews

      2. Footiepjs*

        When I worked at a public library we had to write self assessments each year. Some departments in the city took it more seriously than others and at the library it was kind of a big deal. These self assessments were prepared in the late summer and then we had our reviews before the end of year in September. Managers encouraged us to fill them out throughout the year with examples/anecdotes that supported the ratings we gave ourselves in the categories. I also would keep a work diary to write down my thoughts and things to focus on, especially when I was new to the division and learning my role.

    2. Daria Grace*

      A few random ideas:
      – If you have any relevant performance metrics like work output statistics, try to obtain a copy before the meeting so you’re not reacting on the spot.
      – If you’ve received positive written feedback from customers or other departments, bring copies.
      – Decide in advance a few questions you can ask your manager about professional development opportunities and their plans for the upcoming year so you can easily fill awkward silences.
      – If there is anything you need your manager to do more/less/better/differently, work out how to articulate what you need in advance.

  176. cereal killer*

    I’ve been in my current job for about 6 months now. I am a designer working with fellow designers in an institution that is not at all familiar with design. But my major challenge with enrolling people in design seems to be my design peers! All of them have worked here for 10+ years, which I always feel is a bit of a challenge to overcome the “we always do things this way” mentality. But I am working on a number of projects with two other peers and it is like hearding cats getting them to commit to anything. Everytime I talk to them/set up working meetings to make progress on these projects I am met with a bunch of philosophical questions as to why we are doing the project in the first place and what the risks are, and what this high level person may or may not be thinking about this on a given day. I am all about big picture, long term thinking, but at a certain point you have to put uncertainties aside and get stuff done. This is especially true of design work- you need to give something to react to, you present your best work, fail fast, and modify based on feedback. But it seems my coworkers are allergic to making decisions and everything devolves into “well what if this happens”. I usually respond with “I hear you that this could be a major concern, given the history of yada, yada, but I think when we meet with Boss he’s going to want to see our recommendations as well as the possible risks, so how about we outlined yada, yada…”. Which is usally met with “yeah but also there’s this possiblility”. I’m ready to pull my hair out.

    Anyone else have some better scripts to get things moving with the chicken-littles to make progress on shared work. At this point my only solution is to do all the work and figure out how to make sure the team members aren’t taking credit where credit isn’t do.

  177. Decima Dewey*

    I have a problem with one of my subordinates, Tommy. The guy’s nearly always late. We have three different start times each week, two days we’ve supposed to be here at 9:45, two days at 10:45, Fridays at 8:45. Once Tommy came in early by mistake, because he confused one of the 10:45 days for an 8:45 day. Part of the lateness is that he has to take care of his mother, who is a noncompliant diabetic (eats all the starches she wants, won’t exercise, etc.). I have to nag him to fill out daily timesheets (so did previous managers he’s had), but he generally is good about being honest with his time.

    But recently I’ve had some medical appointments in the morning. When I get in after seeing my diabetes educator, my dentist, and so forth, I notice that Tommy’s signed in claiming that he was on time. Trouble is, I don’t believe it. He’s late four days a week, but the one day I’m not here to take his “I’m running late” call or see him come in half an hour late, he was here on time? I can’t prove it, nor do I want to go around asking everyone else if Tommy really did come in on time.

    1. AnonAndOn*

      Sounds like it’s time to have a sit down meeting with him. You may not be able to prove the timesheet padding but you have evidence of his repeat tardiness that needs to be discussed.

    2. onyxzinnia*

      Do you guys have electronic badges to swipe into the building? Since you’re his manager, IT might be able to tell you what time he swiped into the building each morning.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        No such luck. We’ve been promised electronic timesheets (you’d be signed in once you sign on to your computer), but the deadline keeps getting extended.

        1. copy run start*

          Does your IT department have logon/startup events logged on the PCs? If you know Tommy always uses a certain PC you might be able to check the system logs to see when it was last booted/woken up/signed in on. I wouldn’t swear by it, since a light jiggle will wake most machines from sleep, but it might help.

  178. hillsworthdyingon*

    I’m in my mid-20’s and have climbed the career ladder a bit quicker than most people my age. Being at the “right place at the right time” and choosing to work for a company that took off quickly has played a small role in this, but my success is mostly due to my enthusiasm for my job and company and really, really hard work.

    I’m at least 10-15 years younger than everyone else at my rank at the company (most are my parents’ age), which has presented some challenges. None of these challenges are obvious or affect my standing with the company, and are more related to team dynamics, perception and attitude from others. Think being the unofficial admin for meetings (setting up web calls, grabbing donuts, taking notes), odd, subtle comments from peers that indicate a perception of nepotism or a “lucky break” (not the case), being lumped in with entry-level employees, peers speaking to me like I’m a direct report, etc.… That kind of thing. Client-facing/External dynamics are a whole different ballgame, with perception I’m an intern/assistant, questions or comments only directed toward older peers, etc. but that doesn’t bug me as much as the internal stuff does.

    I’ve tried to combat this by not making a big deal of this, and letting my work speak for itself. I always thought the best solution was to treat all peers the same, regardless of age – this is the stock advice I get from everyone. This really only helps so much.

    Is this just a part of “doing my time” due to age despite the fact that I’m not entry level? Is there anything I can do to stop this problem, or at least minimize it a little?

    What hills are worth dying on?

    1. MarketingCat*

      I am also in my mid 20s, and I also look very young. For me I find it my best to act seriously so that people take me seriously, especially at first, even though I am a more laid back joking sort of individual. I find that over time when people see you do a great job, they grow to respect you. But if it’s been awhile and they still seem to make comments, it might be trickier, and you have to ask yourself if it’s worth doing more.

  179. Rainy*

    Tiny smug vent forthcoming:
    My supervisor is really amazing. So supportive and very protective of my time and energy. I always appreciate her, but extra today, because she copied me on an email she sent to a dreadful person in another part of our organization who wanted us (read: me) to continue “partnering” with them on some programming for a population we don’t serve.

    I got roped into a prior seminar solely because Dreadful Person lied to me about who the programming was for. It’s a long story, but basically DP lied, I agreed based on the lie, and then DP told me the seminar would be held in just over a week and DP was going to be gone the whole week before on a training so I’d be responsible for putting together a presentation. After DP was gone I found out about the lie. Instead of a presentation, I managed to pull in some contacts of mine who actually CAN serve this population and turned it into a panel format. It turned out okay considering, and DP promptly took credit, but it was a miserable fucking experience. Also DP’s boss told me to shut up during the Q&A because my answer wasn’t relevant–to a population I don’t work with and cannot offer services to, and thus know almost nothing about. Shocker there.

    DP has been trying to pull me in on more and more stuff since, which I have avoided by (with my supervisor’s encouragement), telling DP that all requests for my presence have to go through my supervisor. The email today was in response to another demand that I present programming for DP, and my supervisor, in very professional and polite terms, told DP that we will be having nothing to do with any of that programming going forward. I’m so happy. My supervisor is the best.

    1. NorCalPM*

      Great to read about a manager who actually stands up for staff in light of the many, many stories on this website about managers who throw their staff under the bus, insult them, sabotage them, or in general behave like incompetent lunatics.

      Congrats. Everyone should be so lucky!

      1. Rainy*

        Thanks! I told her too, this morning when I saw her. :)

        DP is trying to get other people in the office to “help” with this programming now, so I foresee this stretching on for a bit.

  180. Crissy with an i*

    I was wondering if I can get some advice from all you lovely readers!
    I found out not too long ago that my new coworker is being paid almost the same amount that I am and he is in an entry level position and fresh out of school (he is being paid 45K and I am being paid 46K). I have been working in this company for over 4 years since I graduated school and since then I have worked my way up to management level. I was shocked to learn my coworker is earning so much right off the start considering when I first started in the company, I pretty much had the same position he has now and I earned 10K less.

    Can anyone give me some advice on what is the best way to bring this up to my boss?

    1. Angie B.*

      I think the likeliest possibility of why this happened is that he negotiated his salary better than you did. Another thing to consider is maybe your new coworker has a skill or multiple skills that made the company offer him more money. I once had a male counterpart (I’m a female) and I made more than him even though he had been with the company and that position for over 2 years. He was also 10 years older than me. I definitely don’t think you can say use his salary as a reason to get a raise. It will put your manager in an awkward position.

      I do agree that if have a management level job that you need to be making more than 46k. If you recently accepted the position and the salary that came with it I don’t think you have standing to ask for a raise and you would need to wait until your year increases. However, if its been a while (a year or more), I would do some research and find out what the avg. salary for your position + company size + your city is and make a proposal.

      1. Crissy with an i*

        Thanks Angie B!

        I am female and my coworker is male. We are actually the same age and we more or less studied the same thing at school. Only I finished four years ago and he finished just a few months ago.

        I got promoted to management level over a year ago. When I first got it, I was so excited that I didn’t realize I can negotiate a higher salary. I have been looking at the average salary in my area and learned most in my position and considering my skill level would make between 55k to 60k a year.

        I will definitely take all of this into consideration. It just really annoyed me that our positions are so different and yet we are earning practically the same thing.

        Thanks again!

        1. Anon for this question*

          You can approach it from the market’s perspective. This is not about how much he makes, this is about how much you’d make in a similar position in your market. Make sure you have solid research and schedule time to really talk about it.

        2. Artemesia*

          You may have to go elsewhere to get paid adequately. But I’d be working on making a case for a raise based on your work quality and your promotion to management. You might mention that you are still making an entry level salary somewhere in this discussion, but don’t lead with that. But I would be seriously scanning the environment for similar jobs elsewhere. This wage compression is pretty common. When I took over a department one time, some of our most important and productive people were making little more than brand new much less important and productive hires. I had to fight for several 10% raises in a row to get one particularly key person up to a reasonable salary. It is much harder to get big raises than to get big offers on hire. The point to make this case was when you were promoted, but since you didn’t, I would sit down after excellent preparation and have the conversation now including a reasonable timetable for redressing this. That also lets you know if you need to kick the job search into high gear.

          1. Crissy with an i*

            Yes, I know that a lot of the mistake was on my end for not negotiating when I got promoted. But when I received my promotion last year I was so excited to finally get because the promotion took an entire year to approve. I was simply too relieved that I didn’t consider this wasn’t adequate pay.

            I have been weighing going elsewhere. Not just because of this. There are many other issues going on where I work that I am completely over. I haven’t left yet primarily because I am in the middle of my graduate program and I was hoping to change gears until after I finish. If this doesn’t work, I will definitely have to start looking.

  181. Guitar Hero*

    How long is too long to wait for an expense check? There is a growing amount of discontent among those of us that travel regularly for the company that it takes 3-4 weeks to get our expense checks after our expense reports are submitted and approved. We still have a manual process for doing it–we fill out an excel spreadsheet, email it to the proper people, and then receive a paper check in the mail.

    I haven’t done much investigating but I suspect that there are tech platforms out there that make this process easier/more transparent, but I know nothing about accounting so maybe 3-4 weeks is totally reasonable (it generally allows for credit cards to be paid off before accruing interest). Any thoughts here?

    1. CAA*

      4 weeks is on the long side, but it’s not outrageously long. Most places I’ve worked are in the 2 to 3 week range. Usually there are specific dates when expense checks are cut and there’s a deadline for getting expense reports in so that they can be included in the next check. Frequently these dates are tied to payroll cycles, but they can be more or less frequent. Make sure the approver (your manager?) is not sitting on them until she has a batch of them and thereby causing you to miss the deadline. Otherwise, maybe find out if your finance team will consider paying out expenses on the same schedule as when they process payroll. That’ll get your checks at least twice a month and maybe every other week.

      There are various electronic systems that can handle the submission and processing of expense reports, but since they all require humans (usually multiple humans in different departments) to do approvals, I haven’t noticed that they go any faster than the old fashioned spreadsheet method and some of them are actually a lot more cumbersome.

      1. Guitar Hero*

        Thanks! My boss is great about approving them same-day (I get cc’d) so I know that’s not the problem. It sounds like we’d all benefit from some more transparency around the process for starters.

    2. Artemesia*

      I hate requiring employees to front the money to the organization. With regular travel I would be pushing for travel advances and all flight .and hotel booking being done on the corporate account. If there is a lot of travel, this should be routine.

  183. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

    Well, I didn’t get the Big Tech job. Apparently they liked me but thought I was better for another position. Ironically, the position they thought I would be great at is one that I interviewed for back in August that I withdrew my candidacy for after it got moved from my reasonably priced city to the Bay Area. As much as I wanted that position, the cost of living in the Bay Area is not something I could swing even with the pay increase and my credit is so bad that I doubt I could’ve found an apartment.

    My electricity and gas got shut off yesterday too, so all in all it’s been a great week (/sarcasm). Trying hard to keep my hopes up that something will work out eventually, but I’m feeling pretty devastated.

    2. partypants*

      not sure where you live but if you haven’t, I recommend checking with local food pantry/jewish services, etc to find emergency funding for electricity & gas & other things.
      After volunteering at a food pantry for 2 years, I found myself in the position of needing to use their services for food supplies. An ego bruiser but I was staring some serious food insecurity in the face and having to decide to I buy human food or cat food, debating who was better off going hungry (the cats win, they always win).

      Jewish Social Services (you don’t have to be Jewish) also helped me find a therapist I can afford. I don’t qualify for public assistance for anything but there ARE places out there that can help!’

  184. Anon for this question*

    I don’t know if anyone is reading anymore at this point but I have a question.

    Is personality/profile type of assessment a red flag for a job interview? Would it be a deal breaker for you? The kinds like DiSC. I like doing profile assessment personally but not sure how I feel about it’s place in an interview process.

    1. MarketingCat*

      Personally, I think it depends on other flags/signs you get from a candidate. Such as it should push you over the edge on hiring/rejecting but shouldn’t be a deciding factor. But I know a lot of people take them pretty seriously.

    2. Rainy*

      My office loves assessments (because of what we do) BUT, we never base hiring decisions on them (proficiency in facilitating and interpreting, yes–your individual results? NEVER). Depending on the assessment I would find it more or less disturbing, I guess–but honestly the ones that wouldn’t be upsetting are not validated for basing decisions like that on, sooooo…

    3. bunniferous*

      My boss does them (I work in real estate.) For that it actually works quite well. Helps us all play to our strengths.

  185. Kix*

    I posted in an earlier Open Thread not too long ago about my manager saying to me in a fit of anger that no one would consider me for a manager job because it doesn’t matter how good I am at my job or how much I like my job or how hard I work at my job, what matters is appearance.

    In my post, I’d commented on how this comment of his cut deep, since I’m fat. I received several positive and constructive comments to my post.

    After accepting the fact that the job I once loved is no longer the job I love, I signed up to work with an amazing mentor who helped mentor me out of this job into a better job in a different unit here in my division. I’m a program manager now with more money and more responsibility. My new team is excited to have me and my skill sets, and I’m already happier than I have been in a while.

    Thank you, AAM readers, for your feedback. It helped me greatly!

    2. Artemesia*

      That is so awesome. And your former boss is a maroon. I am in a book group with mostly younger working women in a big northern city. Three of the group are quite a bit overweight and each of them is a very successful high achiever. One does international engineering consulting work for a company, one just left a great media job to start her own business and the other just retired from a good corporate job. The higher you go, the more important it is to be good at what you do. Glad you found a spot where that is recognized and rewarded.

    3. NorCalPM*

      Congratulations! And I hope you realize how amazing you are: you took action and looked out for yourself. You succeeded. That takes courage, focus and wisdom. I hope you’re proud of yourself. I don’t know you, but I am.

    4. Rainy*

      I am so happy for you! Your old manager sounds like a jerk and I’m glad you’re not having to deal with him anymore.

  186. MarketingCat*

    Am I right to be turned off by a company who told me in their phone interview their process involves 6 in-person interviews?

    1. Artemesia*

      Not if they fit them into one fun filled day. If they mean 6 trips to their offices — I’d be turned off.

        1. CatCat*

          UGH. I would be pretty turned off too. They don’t sound very organized if they can’t get this into one day.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          6 different trips?? That’s crazy! I’ve had several day-long interviews in my career where I met with at least 5 or so people individually or in small groups, but it’s been ONE day, not multiple.

  187. Jillociraptor*

    The person in the suite across the hall just walked into our office, silent, stared plaintively at the two remaining brownies my boss made for our suite for about 15 seconds longer than feels appropriate, then walked away without a word or even a glance in our direction.

    Any weird behavior in your workplace today? Happy Friday!

  188. partypants (not partying much here)*

    anyone still on here??? I was just given an EIP from my CEO, one I do not agree with, that I need to sign to say I received it. I’m just short of hysterics here….despite still sitting at teh office, waiting on software to download so i can work for another 2 hours.
    I hate this job, I can’t afford to quit, but think I mus. Someone, please, say some prayers for me, tell me how to get through this.
    please

    1. Undine*

      Alison has said that signing just means you received it, you can sign and also annotate to say that you do not agree with all of it, that your signature only shows that you received it.

      I think that revising your resume and looking further will definitely be helpful, regardless of how the situation plays out. You will be given some time for the plan, if only a few weeks, so strategize your job hunt this weekend. I don’t know where you are or what your field is, so I don’t know what your employment prospects are, but you can certainly start looking.

    2. NorCalPM*

      Do the best you can while you’re there. Start looking for another job NOW; don’t wait to be shown the door. Read the EIP thoroughly, make sure you understand it, ask questions if you need to. And then sit down and think about how YOU think you can improve. Write it down. Think about it some more. Think about what you want to do to improve. Anything in the EIP you think might be valid? That’s what you need to focus on. Don’t be afraid to ask for help or clarification. Do your best. This is from an agnostic, so I’m afraid I can’t pray for you. But I wish you well.

  189. Mary*

    I was reading a sample cover letter, and the closing paragraph says this – ‘I will call next week to discuss my candidacy in hopes of securing an interview in the near future. ‘. Is this bad advice? It feels like bad advice, I feel it comes across a bit too eager. What do others think?

    4. The future will be better*

      Definitely do not do that! Allison has a great idea of cover letter examples – I actually just snagged an interview with one inspired by it. The idea is to focus on things that your resume can’t say. It ended up feeling a little cheesy to me, but I think that’s the nature of job hunting – I’m usually pretty unenthusiastic about even work I enjoy, but I have to turn it up a notch for job applications.

    5. Observer*

      It’s not bad advice, it’s TERRIBLE advice. Also “too eager” is not the issue. The issue is that it’s pushy and making all sorts of unreasonable assumptions.

      Anyway, do NOT do this.

  190. Mimmy*

    Any medical coders or transcriptionists out there?

    While I have my core career goals (see last week’s thread), but should my preferred options not pan out, I’ve been thinking about health information career options, such as medical transcription or coding. Maybe it’s because there are a lot of medical professionals in my family, but I have a bit of a knack for medical terminology and basic anatomy.

    I know medical coding is a popular option, but is medical transcription still common?

    BTW: I know my interests are allllllllll over the place – I’m sure I could find ways to incorporate many of them into one or two things, but reading some of the threads here reminds me that I need to take care of myself and not get into a situation that I cannot handle and my anxiety gets kicked up. This explains why I have trouble making a decision and sticking with it.

    1. H.C.*

      Medical transcription is still fairly common right now, but its growth is challenged by cheaper overseas labor (since it’s work that can be done remotely) and possibly threatened by automation (machines getting better with voice recognition, incl. medical terminology); coding is a little more stable, since it currently requires more human & hands-on expertise to transform diagnoses & treatments into data for analysis and billing.

      Having said that, both are viable jobs right now, but you should keep your eye out for opportunity or training to get you into higher-level (and better paying) positions, such as health/clinical information management.

  191. Parenthetically*

    Argh I’m so late! Quick request, what do you do if you’re invited to apply for a job you’re not qualified for? My husband is job-searching. His field is Teapot Information Systems with a little bit of Teapot Data Management in there. He’s been asked to apply (by the company owner who is a good friend) for a Spout Production/Engineering job. It’s just… his hobbies marginally overlap, and he might be okay at the position (she says, proud wifily), but he has no professional experience in spouts at all, and certainly no experience with spout production/engineering! Should he apply? Graciously decline?

    2. Colette*

      Is it something he wants to do?

      It sounds like his application will at least be looked at, so that’s the big question. (Also, does he want to work with/for the friend?)

    3. MissDisplaced*

      If he has any experience, it’s worthwhile applying. At worst the company will deem him not qualified, at best he might get and interview and more information and/or could be a good thing to add to his network for other openings there. I can’t see any harm.

  192. Bigglesworth*

    I know I’m a bit late to the party today, but I hope that someone can help me out.

    My husband was admitted to the hospital on Wednesday night for major depressive disorder and suicidal ideation. Although he’s not suicidal after two days in the hospital, they are switching his medications around and he feels really crappy right now. My questions are two-fold (one set about his workplace and one set about my school).

    1.) How do we deal with this with his work place? He’s only been there since July, so according to them he’s not covered by FMLA. It sounds like they’re willing to take him back once he’s better, but right now that may or may not happen. Even so, his HR person told me today that his insurance will be cut in a month and they will give us paperwork for COBRA. He also works as an electrical apprentice, so although HQ seems to be ok with this, his peers think depression and anxiety basically equal a wuss who can’t cope.

    2.) How do I take care of myself during this? I really actually have no clue. My entire world has taken a drastic turn that I never thought possible. How do I take care of him and take care of myself? As an added bonus, I’m in my first year of law school and finals start on 12/7/2017. Law school is stressful enough, but taking care of him (which is very much my first priority) might mean I have lower grades during finals. The profs and school are willing to work with me, but what do I ask? How do I cope? I don’t know how to not take care of my husband, but how do I balance it all and not go into depression myself?

    I know this could potentially go onto tomorrow’s open forum and I’ll try to post there too, but I’m wondering if anyone can help with the work/school aspects. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. The future will be better*

      Oh no! I’m sorry you’re going through such a rough time.

      > his peers think depression and anxiety basically equal a wuss who can’t cope.

      Then he shouldn’t talk to his peers about it. Coworkers aren’t entitled to know about his medical issues, particularly if they’ll be unsupportive. Frankly, I’d probably just think of a lie, or gloss over it as much as possible. They don’t get the truth if they’re gonna be jerks.

      Taking care of yourself – definitely get therapy. There are probably online support forums or inperson groups for spouses of people with depression, and I bet that would be helpful too. What to ask your professors – a common accommodation is extra time for an exam, which might help if you’re having trouble focusing because you’re so stressed by everything else.

      And finally, make sure you keep *you* a priority. You can’t set yourself on fire to keep your husband warm, then you’ve just got two people who are really struggling. Understand that it’s not your responsibility to fix his depression or constantly accommodate it – take time to be yourself, his wife, instead of a constant caretaker.

      That’s all I can think of, I’m sure others will have better ideas. .. hugs!

    2. Colette*

      You’re right in the thick of things now, so it’s normal that you can’t see where this will go. Since your husband will have no income coming in for probably a couple of months, take a look at your finances and figure out what you need to do there.

      Then take a look at your schedule and figure out how you can support him and make sure you are preparing for finals. (Can you? Or do you need to ask for a deferrment? How much support do you have? Is he at home and, if so, can he be left alone? What kind of support do you have? What can you let drop until after finals?)

      And finally, what kind of help do you need for you? Do you need a night off from school and caregiving? Do you need an hour a day to go to the gym? Do you someone to pick up groceries so it’s one less thing on your plate? Ask for help, but remember it’s an ask and people can say no.

  193. char*

    I’ve been really frustrated with my team this week, but I feel bad about it, because I know that my own failure to adequately communicate what I need from them is part of the problem. (And another part of the problem is out of their hands as well; they can’t help that the client we’re working with right now is an absolute mess.) Despite my efforts to not let my frustration show, it probably is anyway and I’m afraid it’s making them lose confidence in themselves. Which I don’t want, because they’re normally great!

    But I had to spend the better part of two days this week redoing their work because they missed things that, to me, were blindingly obvious. They need to be more thorough, but I can’t figure out how to explain to them how to do so, because to me it’s just intuitive. I eventually resorted to telling them to leave all of X tasks (the trickier ones) to me, and one of them didn’t even get that right! He blundered right ahead with X in a way that was visible to the client and I had to undo everything he did, making us look like we don’t know what we’re doing. But even then, I could probably have been clearer in what I was asking him to do. I just couldn’t figure out a way to say “stop doing X because you’re doing it all wrong” without sounding mean.

    Another part of my problem is that I don’t know whether my expectations of them are unrealistic. There’s a reason I’m the lead and they’re not, after all. Do I just have to accept that sometimes I’ll have to leave things for other people and if they miss things that I would have caught, so be it? If it were just minor things they were missing, I’d be okay with that, but they’ve missed pretty important things as well… ugh, I don’t know how to deal with this. I’m so bad at handling this, I feel bad for my team for not having a better lead than me.

    I’m mostly just venting here, and I’m going to ask my manager for advice next week. But if anyone has advice for how I can learn to be better at communicating what I need from my team, or how to understand when I genuinely need my team to perform to a higher standard vs. when I’m being too much of a perfectionist… I’m all ears.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      If you’re creating or contributing to a stressful environment, it’s a bit much to expect cold calm logic from your team. It sounds like you’re making them panic. People don’t behave with reason when they are panicking. I’m not sure the issue is not knowing how to be thorough – maybe you could focus more on creating the conditions needed for them to do that? Are you doing anything to build morale, and are you talking through the plan for processes and expectations calmly or just telling them to get on with it?

    2. Colette*

      Are these things like “make sure you check the data you enter to make sure it’s accurate” or “everyone knows that spouts should be red when the teapot is green”?

      If the issues are with details, you can be clear that the details have to be right or not done at all. But if it’s stuff you see as common knowledge that isn’t (which is what it sounds like) then you need to be very clear about what you need to see.

      Can you write guidelines they need to follow?

  194. The future will be better*

    I’m considering returning to be a full-time student and switching fields. I was working, and I was hoping to find another job (my last contract ended) while being a part-time student, but I’m realizing that with the additional MS I’m planning on I would make *so* much more money, that I could start nearly a year or two earlier if I take a full load and finish of the pre-reqs. I have the savings to do this, but it still feels bad to not be employed. A few friends have agreed it’s reasonable… all the jobs I can get now are so low paying, and after the degree I would be much more highly paid, even if I just got a “low paying” job with the degree I’d easily recoupe the lost time.

    Speaking of, thank you to those who helped me guess a salary last week! I must’ve done right, because I got an interview! Better paying than most of my possible job prospects, so we’ll see how it goes!

  195. Wintermute*

    I sit next to one of the most negative people I’ve ever met. Now our department has issues, for sure, some long-planned tool changes were done in a terrible way, they’ve laid off some staff (it was really two firings disguised as a layoff, we now have openings for those exact positions 2 months later) and our processes are not as efficient as they should be, and it does impact our workload, mandatory overtime and expectations–

    But every one of those gets a huge tirade, daily, from the co-worker next to me. Now superficially it’s easy to agree– these all ARE issues that are affecting our work, its quality and our work/life balance. But I’m worried about a few things:

    First I like this guy, he’s had a rough go in the industry and I’m worried he’s going to complain himself right out the front door the same way one of the two “layoff-fired” (laired?) employees did. If I can I’d like to help him, but not at a cost of my own position.

    I’m also just exhausted with the negativity, it’s exhausting to hear about these shortcomings over and over. I finally snapped and told him “I’m sure our bosses have some of this being dictated to them from above, you’ve told them the situation is unacceptable a dozen times now, they’ve told you it won’t be changing. That’s their way of saying dealing with this system and its fallout is now a part of your job.” I want the stress of constantly being subjected to this to end.

    I’m not worried about being painted with the same brush, my boss knows me and knows I try to be a change cheerleader, maybe that’s why I got sat next to negative Ned here, but it’s driving me crazy!

    1. new_one*

      Can’t you just tell him that you agree these are issues but you don’t like talking about them? Then put your speakers on every time he starts and don’t answer. If he asks you what you don’t reply just tell him the first sentence of my comment again.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It always amazes me how people think it’s not ok or professional for employees to complain about unfair or unjust treatment or work conditions. Like, they’re just supposed to suck it up and take it or leave. Sad to be indoctrinated and brainwashed that way.

      But that being said, agree there are issues, but you can’t do anything about it, then tune him out and disengage.
      Sometimes, people can’t stop, but you don’t have to be part of it.

      I think Alison had a post similar to this with a variety of possible responses.
      “I agree there are issues and I’m sorry you’re unhappy. Perhaps this is a signal for you that it’s time to move on.”
      “I’m sorry you’re unhappy with the situation, but there is nothing I can change and I have work to do.”
      Etc.

  196. new_one*

    I started a new job a few weeks ago. My probatory period is 6 months. I’m doing ok. I learn a lot and like the job. However, there’s plenty of work and honestly, if I didn’t work at home a bit, I would never be done with everything during my work hours. My previous position was also very demanding, but this one is shockingly so. (In my country employees are always expected to be paid for overtime, but fearing about your job and wanting a career progression you are expected not to make a fuss about this extra time and not insist on getting paid for it).

    I accepted this position although they offered me about 20% less in terms of salary than I expected. I agreed to that knowing that they control the numbers of hours worked and I would be able to leave the office after 8 h.

    The financial year is coming to an end and I’ve scheduled a conversation with my boss about my future soon.

    How can I make it clear to my boss subtly that I hope for a fast career progression and a pay rise soon, otherwise I will be forced to search a job better reflecting my market value in about a year? I want to avoid sounding ungrateful or naive. It’s clear I’ve just started and as I say, I really like the job. But it’s also clear that a person with all these duties should be paid 20% more.

    1. The future will be better*

      I wouldn’t make any indication that you might leave – even if you had an offer, it might just be a matter of time til they push you out. Instead focus on why you deserve to be paid more, accomplishments, explain that you’re working more outside of when than the position was described to you… and I suppose it can’t hurt to start job searching!

  197. Amyyy*

    Does saying you have a disability or that you’re a minority on the EEO questionnaires when applying for a job (vs opting out) make it more likely for them to hire you because they want to show they’re not discriminating?

    Or is that to keep track of people they hire anyway, and HR doesn’t see the answers when you submit?

    2. Anon for this question*

      It’s used only for reporting. No hiring decisions are made using the EEO questionnaires.

  198. Ermintrude Mulholland*

    I am in the process of starting up a small business and wondered if anyone could recommend what the best sort of home working tech setup might be?
    I also have a newborn so a tablet seems v appealing but I don’t know if that’s a ridiculous long term choice.
    I’d also be hunting for a laser printer for printing useful information for the classes and consultations I will be running.
    I’m based in the UK if that alters the answers at all.

    1. Artemesia*

      I don’t know what work you would be doing but a tablet is the worst for anything serious; for me something like a MacAir which is very lightweight but had a real keyboard that is easy to use or another small laptop would be far better than a tablet.

      For serious home based work a desk top with a big screen that allows you to display several pages at a time would be basic for me. Maybe a laptop and dock set up. When I was working I had a Mac pro laptop which would dock at work where I had a big screen and that I could then take home and use there as a laptop.

    2. new_one*

      It depends what you will be doing of course.

      I love my Mac Air, but it was quite expensive at the beginning and some more specialistic programs don’t run on it. I had a small Windows laptop before, but the user experience is simply incomparable.

    3. zora*

      For printers, I’ve found Brother printers to be the most reliable in the long term. They are worth the price up front, they are less likely to need service, and the toner is super easy to install.

      I always search on Lifehacker dot com and Gizmodo dot com for their latest reviews on tech. They have several on printers and on other computers, etc.

  199. Candi*

    I was bloody channeling Alison just now. >.< And maybe a few other commentators.

    I had to tell my "boss" Darwin at the Darwin Awards that something she posted on a submission in the slush pile was misinformed. Leaving it there would only feed some misconceptions. And you don't just drop that kind of thing on any boss like a pile of bricks.

    When I went to type the message… I could almost hear what Alison and other people here would suggest. How they'd phrase and pace it. Resulting in a very nice-sounding FB message.

    Thanks, y'all. :)

    If interetsted, the problem: A guy's power was turned off to his house, and his family had been without power for two weeks, income issues. :( He tried to hack into the power lines and run a line into his house. Yeah.

    The line on the post was Darwin wondering why no one extended this family help.

    Two factors:

    1) Unless it's blatantly obvious, that kind of thing isn't generally individually offered. Around here, the county-wide program subtly advertises, especially in locations where the low-income are likely to be, and information is passed out with other info from organizations that assist the low-income, but they don't go up and individually ask each person who might need it if they want it.

    You have to ask. With paystubs, UI (something, I forget), or DSHS ID number. The county program is great, but they have to know.

    2) Some people are too proud to ask. Even to the point of suffering and death. Even for their children.

    I get it. I had to use our program 13 years ago; I was working, but my income was about $800 after taxes. It BIT. My kids' needs are why the decision itself was easy -but the feelings were hard to deal with. But… that's why it's there. Welfare, too.

    1. Candi*

      That’s $800/month. Luckily my rent was cheap, but I was on TANF and what is now called SNAP. Yes, it is bad. Even if the social workers and all are trying their best. (I always got along with my workers, even the one who tended to be snippy.)

  200. wait and see*

    Do I follow-up? I had phone interview 3 weeks ago (sent thank you letter), had office interview with 3 different groups 2 weeks ago (sent 3 thank you letter), was told they wanted to finalize before Thanksgiving, found out 3 of 5 references were called last week. Do I follow-up this week or wait until after Thanksgiving (it’s the Tuesday before Thanksgiving and their office is closed Thursday and Friday). Thanks!

Comments are closed.