open thread – November 3-4, 2017

by Alison Green on November 3, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

    I have to tell all of you about a hiring horror story from my organization. So, back in March, I think, a full time staff member from a department adjacent to mine left to go back to school. The hiring process starts, everything goes pretty smoothly. They narrow it down to three candidates. The offer it to top candidate, he turns it down. Hiring manager decides she doesn’t really like the other top candidates. She doesn’t offer any of them the job. She sits on her thumbs for about a month. Finally, the position is posted again. One of my staff members, Jane, asks me if I think she’s qualified for the job, says she interested in it. She’s an excellent employee and actually excels at the work this other department does. (For example, we make teapots for adults and they make teapots for children and Jane’s small teapots are consistently better than her large teapots.) She applies and I send an email to hiring manager basically saying that I know Jane is applying and what I’ve seen of her work and why I think she might be a good candidate for them. About another month goes by and neither Jane nor I hear from hiring manager. I think this is odd because it seems to me that even if Jane isn’t as qualified as I think she is, hiring manager should at least let me know that. I contact that department and find out that they never interviewed anyone this second go around, but they have offered someone the job and he accepted. The person who was hired, Fergus, was originally not considered because he doesn’t have a bachelor’s degree, only an associate’s. He does do excellent work, though (he was a part-timer in my department and their department). Since he does great work, I don’t think it should matter what degree he has or doesn’t have. BUT, now for the insane part of the story….hiring manager never asked higher-ups if it was ok. C-level found out that he doesn’t have a bachelor’s and doesn’t want him working in that department! He has been working there for three weeks already! They have not let him go yet, buy c-level is really pushing for it. Also, he has no idea that right now that c-level wants him gone. It just such a messed up situation

    1. Samiratou*

      That’s insane, mostly on the part of the C-level folks. I loathe the artificial degree requirements. If people are qualified and do good work, who cares if they have a degree, especially since there’s no guarantee that the person’s degree would even be relevant to their current job?

      1. Serin*

        Oh, lord, when I left my part-time job as a church secretary, I had to talk them out of requiring a bachelor’s degree for my replacement. For a 20-hour-a-week job! In a town where only about 10% of the population has a four-year degree!

        I mean, you don’t want a person who isn’t intelligent in that job (I’ve worked in departments with dim admins, and it’s not fun), but there are no academic requirements. You want Word and Excel skills and good written communication? Those are super-easy to test for, and they don’t require four years of college.

        1. 2 Cents*

          Yeah and a degree doesn’t ensure you won’t be a dim person. I’ve worked with many, some of whom made it all the way to Ph.D.!

          2. Alli525*

            My best friend and I were living together during her grad school years, and one night she looked up at me and asked “What’s a preposition?” I fell over laughing and coined the phrase we now use at each other constantly: “Well, it’s a good thing you’re pretty!” She is one of the brightest people I know, and once I started singing the Preposition Song (anyone else? crickets?) she understood, but she went to a school that decided teaching grammar just wasn’t important and kids would pick it up on their own from reading books. (uh……..)

            School ain’t everything.

        2. tink*

          I’ve been locked out of receptionist and entry level admin positions because I don’t have a 4-year degree, so I wish I was more surprised by this. I think what gets me most is that a lot of the positions that don’t necessarily NEED a degree (but rather someone with a few ounces of sense and the ability to listen, learn, and pick new things up pretty quickly) but list it as a hard requirement ALSO do not want to pay any sort of decent wage to do the work. I’ve seen so many listings for “Receptionist, must have 1+ year front office experience AND a bachelor’s degree” where the pay is something insulting like $8/hr. (I live in a state with US federal set minimum wage, so they’re making above the minimum, but not by much.)

          1. Jadelyn*

            I’m particularly fond of entry-level HR Clerk/HR Assistant roles that want the candidates to have a degree and a freaking PHR certification…in order to make like $12/hr. Which I have seen a few of.

          2. JN*

            I hate job listing where it seems like it would be an entry level job, but they want you to have experience. Come on, someone’s got to be the first place to give a person experience in a type of job, so that they can move up into jobs that really do need to have a background in the field.

          3. Aunt Jemima*

            Yes! I see receptionist jobs with those requirements for about $8/hour in my area all the time! It’s ridiculous.

            1. Jake*

              Wow. We were paying admins $15/hr in PA with no degree requirement, but there were absolutely no benefits, so it was a pretty rough time finding qualified candidates.

              1. Artemesia*

                Because admins are not real people and benefits would not be relevant to their needs. I hate it when businesses treat some employees as if they were not human beings.

        3. Artemesia*

          Seriously!! I had a cousin who had an associates degree, was a terrific person, a pleasure to be around and very competent with secretarial tasks. She worked as a working mother in church offices and schools for her career and did a terrific job. Artificial requirements that don’t related to the job are insane and in a small town, where most people don’t have them but many young people have taken business classes in high school or CC programs, doubly so.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Ugh, yes. I’m in HR at my org and when job descriptions are being developed or revised, we push back HARD and force managers to really justify why they absolutely *need* someone with a degree for the position. If they can’t make their case, then they can put a degree under “preferred” qualifications, but not under requirements.

        The worst thing with degree requirements is they function as a gatekeeper for low-income people and older people. My coworker, the HR Generalist, doesn’t have a degree because she started as a secretary 30-some years ago when she didn’t need to have a degree for that, and she learned on the job and worked her way up. My mother is a skilled accountant, but she doesn’t have a degree because again, when she started her career, you didn’t necessarily need a degree for it. She’s got 25+ years of experience but no degree and that’s shut her out of a number of positions and promotions over the last few years.

        Eff that.

        1. Queen of the File*

          Here here!! We had a receptionist position (answering phones and buzzing people into the building) that required a bachelor’s degree for no reason. Every person they hired quit within three weeks out of boredom.

            1. Jadelyn*

              Honestly, I found pretty much nothing from my university time that was really all that applicable in the general admin jobs I had. College didn’t teach me how to file, how to do business outreach, how to predict supplies usage and keep things stocked but not overstocked, how to “manage up” and herd cats when the cats are uniformly much higher above me in the company, how to politely word a business email to convey “eff off, this is not my problem and I’m not taking the fall for you” (which is a critical skill, imo).

              My favorite was where having gone to college made me eligible for a shift supervisor position in a retail store when I’d applied for a regular associate position. I had *no* retail experience whatsoever, mind you, but that college on my resume automatically made me Supervisor Material to them. Okay then.

              1. JGray*

                Your retail story reminded me of my best friend when she worked at a national retailer. We both worked at national retailers (not the same one) in high school. She worked lots of jobs at the store and when we were about 20 (so having worked these jobs for about four years) a lead (front line supervisor type) position opened up at the store she worked at. She applied but was told since she didn’t have a college degree she couldn’t have the job. The person who got the job had a college degree had only worked at the store about six months. Well he knew nothing and would come to my friend all the time to find out how to do his job. She finally started telling him that she didn’t know & he was the manager. It worked out okay for her because her second job at a bank actually became full time so she was able to quit the retailer about a year later but it was still insane how a college degree would qualify someone who knew nothing about the actual work.

              2. Look What You Made Me Do*

                I’ve run into this, kind of. I have a Bachelor’s in Psych, but it’s pretty difficult to find jobs in the field that will accept anything less than a Master’s. I’ve ended up in customer service jobs where they say things like, “You have your degree! Why are you applying here?” Also, I absolutely do not ever, ever, ever want to be in management. EVER. I would be a terrible manager. Do Not Want. But that degree loves to make interviewers/bosses want to know where my ambition is.

                On the other hand, my husband “only” has his GED plus a short stint in the military, and he is constantly promoted into management positions after mere weeks/months on a job – because he’s a great employee and a good manager! But at his current job he’s now in a position where he can’t move any higher without a degree, even though he’s worked there for years and could probably handle the job just great. Frustrating for sure.

          2. K.*

            That was a battle where I used to work! Reception is not an entry-level stepping stone job there. You don’t get promoted off the reception desk. The person leaving the role was a career receptionist (and awesome and great at her job, everybody liked her), and the role wasn’t going to change. Once she announced her retirement, someone wondered if they should fill the role with a recent college grad and that spread, and a lot of us, myself included, were like “Why? What does a bachelor’s bring to the role?” Eventually someone pointed out that a college grad was likely not going to stay in a reception role very long, if s/he had aspirations beyond reception.

        2. cornflower blue*

          I know two very skilled people with engineering/electrical backgrounds who did all their training in the military, and so are shut out of degree-requiring jobs. Their problem-solving skills are far superior to those of recent BS grads, but they consistently lose jobs to them. It’s a darned shame.

          1. Artemesia*

            This is the one place where those stupid diploma mill on line programs can come in handy to get a ‘degree’.

            1. Specialk9*

              Exactly. It’s a broken system but sometimes you just check the box, if you at all can afford it.

        3. Althea*

          This is like the opposite of my org. We were hiring an associate position, basically an entry-level. We wanted to list minimum qualifications as a bachelors, because although people often get a masters, we also wanted to attract candidates with field experience. Sometimes just college-PC-internship yield a better candidate than someone with the masters would.

          HR insisted they had to list it as “masters degree or combination of equivalent experience” because the degree is supposed to imply a career-track job rather than an admin one. We said most candidates who read that are going to assume they need the masters or a LOT of experience – and then they won’t apply.

          We lost this fight. Only 1 application out of 20 or more didn’t have a masters, and that was an application referred internally.

          1. Astor*

            One thing that might help is to call out of the exact number of years of experience that is (minimally) considered equivalent. For example, I see a lot of “requires either a bachelor’s degree and two years of experience or a master’s degree”. This makes it easy for skimmers who are looking for just the degree they have.

        4. Samiratou*

          I know tons of programmers that don’t have degrees because they’ve been programming well before you needed a degree (or even before there were degrees, in some cases). My husband is running into this, too, as a web developer, for pete’s sake. He’s been coding websites for 15 years. I don’t think a bachelor matters one way or another to that, but he gets auto-rejects all the time because of it. Infuriating.

          1. many bells down*

            Mr. Bells got hired halfway through college since programmers were in such high demand in the 90’s. He’s never gone back and finished his degree. 25 years of experience, so far, has been enough that recruiters call him all the time. But if he ever wants to change careers he might have trouble.

          2. copy run start*

            Yes, sadly this is starting to happen to tech jobs now that tech degrees are offered everywhere. You might still break into tech now without a degree, but a) it’s harder and b) you might find yourself needing it anyway to move up. And truthfully it shouldn’t matter, because anything in tech changes so rapidly. Often what is taught in schools is several years behind current practice or based on best practices wishes, not what is actually being implemented in the real world or what legacy garbage you’ll encounter out there. It sucks that such talented people are finding themselves locked out by such rigid mindsets.

            Truthfully I went back and got a second bachelor’s in the IT world specifically to future-proof myself when I made the move a few years ago. (I figured it would be much easier to go back at 28 than to go back at 38 or 48, and I’d be less grumpy about doing it at 28 than I would with 10 or 20 years of experience under my belt.)

          3. nonyme*

            Heck, my mother has been programming since the early 1980s (so like 35 years experience), HAS a bachelor’s degree in programming from around the year 2000ish, and a degree in graphic design, and until a year ago, was actively working as a programmer/computer animator/web designer. She’s kept up on all the latest programs. She was laid off through no fault of her own.

            She can’t get work as a web designer/programmer/anything related to computers, in areas she’s absolutely qualified for. She’s losing out to brand new college grads. She’s 65 (doesn’t want to retire) and it seems to be a combination of “too old” and that they think her degrees are no longer relevant … even though she’s been continuously working in the field for longer than the kids they’re hiring have been alive.

            1. nonyme*

              (And to clarify, she’s mostly looking for contract work through temp agencies — it’s not like she’s looking for a long term career position at 65. Still can’t get anyone to hire her.)

        5. Anon Accountant*

          I’m glad you all push back on this requirement when it’s not needed. I’ve worked with accounting and other people without degrees or college coursework who were excellent. You didn’t know they had never been to college unless they told you.

          They worked hard to learn on the job and were excellent. Terrible to keep people from promotions due to lack of a degree when it’s unnecessary.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            My employer doesn’t require degrees unless it’s absolutely essential for the position. My team has no education requirements, only demonstration of expertise. One of my close colleagues is a high school dropout.

          2. Ramona Flowers*

            My employer doesn’t require degrees unless it’s absolutely essential for the position. My team has no education requirements, only demonstration of expertise (and I showed some of that through personal life experience, and some through volunteering). One of my close colleagues is a high school dropout – in a role she wouldn’t be able to get almost anywhere else as they all want degrees. Which stinks.

            1. Anon Accountant*

              That does stink. Many places around here have a questionnaire after you apply that specifically asks if you have a degree. If you check no then you are disqualified. If you check yes then you have to enter your college name and major.

              They’ve even done this for admin jobs where a degree wouldn’t be truly required.

        6. Tris Prior*

          Yes, Boyfriend is in this position now. Job-hunting, lots of admin experience, only an associates’ degree. It’s demoralizing when he fills out the online app, a window pops up that makes him check “yes/no” to whether he’s got a bachelor’s, and then immediately comes the automated rejection email. This has happened more than once.

          The other day I saw a job listing for a seasonal retail position that said “bachelor’s degree required.” For RETAIL. That is SEASONAL. WTAF?

        7. Anion*

          Ugh, yes. We just relocated back to the US, and my husband–with twenty+ years of management/upper management experience in a variety of different business types & departments, couldn’t even get a resume into most jobs because he doesn’t have a degree (online applications disqualified him or wouldn’t even allow him to finish the application).

          He finally went to a temp/recruitment agency and found a great job right away; they’ve already promoted him once after six weeks. But it’s so frustrating to see jobs he seemed ready-made for and he couldn’t even get a toe in the door, especially in an area where we don’t have any real contacts or experience.

          I had a boss once who wanted a degree, and when I asked him why he said “It proves they can finish what they start, and are dedicated.” Seven years with the same firm, and two promotions at that one firm, proves the same thing, though.

          1. Jadelyn*

            …I dropped out of school the first time, and barely scraped through when I went back (undiagnosed and therefore untreated/unsupported ADHD plays havoc with your academic survival lol that was so much fun). What exactly does that prove?

            1. Anion*

              Exactly. It proves nothing about you that isn’t also proved (or disproved) by a good work record. It was just so infuriating to hear someone basically say, “Yeah, no specialized knowledge is necessary for this job, I just want to see people spend thousands and thousands of dollars so I know they really want to work.” Nonsense.

            2. Evie*

              I had the same struggles with ADHD and was seriously considering not finishing my BA, but my parents made the same exact argument that having the degree would help me get work because it shows… dedication? The fact that I’m capable of surviving a rigorous academic environment? I’m not even sure.

              (It did feel great to finally get my diploma, but getting there was so awful that I don’t even want to stay in that field anymore, and I’m left scrambling for transferrable skills)

            3. many bells down*

              I’ve been to college three times, and each time I haven’t been able to finish. The first two times I couldn’t afford to. The last time, we ended up having to relocate when I still had a year to go. I’m dedicated enough that I *keep going back and learning* but I never get to the graduation.

            4. Miss Betty*

              That argument is nothing new. I was hearing it when I graduated from high school (1981) and it’s never gone away.

        8. Free Meerkats*

          We had to fight HR to get the degree requirement taken out of the job description for what I do. Yes, a degree in a hard science would help some, but it’s not needed and the two worst employees we’ve had here in my 25+ years were both degreed, while neither I nor the manager have one.

      3. Snark*

        Aside from the obvious “we’re losing good, qualified candidates” issue, this also turns into stealth racial discrimination in a lot of cases.

        1. Drew*

          This is a fantastic point. Thank you for the reminder that discrimination doesn’t have to be overt to be real.

          1. Snark*

            Or even intentional! But if you’re putting degrees front and center in your quals, you’re pre-selecting for the demographics that have them, and, well.

        4. Autumn anon*

          Sneaky disability discrimination too! If disabled people aren’t supported (and even a lot of the time if they are) at university, they find higher education inaccessible and drop out (drop out rates for disabled students are higher than for non-disabled students, and disabled students also self-select out due to predicting inaccessibility in the first place), and thus requiring degrees is also stealth discrimination against them too.

          2. nonyme*

            Yes, this.

            I had a full ride scholarship to a good university at twenty, in the early 1990s, on the basis of my grades in community college.

            Ended up not even being able to start. Why?

            Needed health insurance, because I was averaging around 50,000 a year in medical expenses in the early 1990s, because of health issues. However, at the time the Medicaid cutoff was $237 a month in income, and Medicaid considered the scholarships and grant I’d rustled up to cover my schooling to be income. (Yes, really.) So the scholarship disqualified me from Medicaid. If I stayed at home (it was a 25 mile drive to school) and financed my college tuition, Medicaid looked at my mother’s income, and that would disqualify me, so I still wouldn’t have insurance.

            My mother’s insurance only covered me to age 19 and I was twenty.

            So then I got a job with a good company that offered scholarships for employees! Yay! I decided to go to community college for another year (I’d already declined the scholarship for university before I got the job).

            Except they kept changing my hours midway through the semester. Four semesters later, I’d only managed to complete two classes because I kept having to drop out because they were inflexible about hours.

            But this otherwise good company offered a pension and good pay and really good health insurance and plentiful vacation so I shrugged and finally decided just to make a go of life without a degree. I had a good job I felt secure in so meh, who needed a degree?

            But then several years later the company got bought out, our pensions got frozen (and then cashed out for pennies on the dollar recently, compared to what they should have been worth) but that’s a vent for another day. Oh, and the new company that bought us required degrees for advancement … and even started requiring degrees for entry level positions.

      4. Kelsi*

        This. My organization is focused on early childhood, but we don’t work directly with children. They want the administrative assistants to have early childhood degrees! I understand they want people to “get” what our mission is about, but frankly, why do you expect that someone with an early childhood degree is going to want to work in an office answering phones and filing training paperwork??? Or that they’re going to be the best candidates vs. someone who has a degree in something else (or no degree) but experience with administrative work?

      5. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I’m feeling this really hard right now. I applied for a position that I have been *doing* since the last person left (not all, but a good portion) and I had two interviews. Both of them just wanted to talk about my unfinished BS degree. I need 6 classes and have been taking classes while working, it’s just slow going. The hiring manager actually said, “you do excellent work, but this position requires the BS degree”. It’s not a matter of regulations/certifications or anything like that. It’s just that they want this person to have a certain degree. I’m still being considered but have already been told that I will have a deadline to finish school if they do offer it.

    2. SophieChotek*

      That does sound like a mess. I feel for both Fergus and Jane. Sounds like HR manager is really the one that needs to be talked to by C-level…

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Can’t they move him back to part-time instead of firing him? It seems awful to punish him for the hiring manager’s incompetence.

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Yeah, I don’t know what the plan is. I would hope they would move him back to part-time instead of getting rid of him, but he would still be taking a financial hit. He quit his other two part-time jobs to take this full time one.

        I’m still keeping my fingers crossed that they can convince c-level to change her mind and just keep him.

        2. Caro in the UK*

          That is absolutely appalling behaviour on the part of your organisation. I really hope someone can point of to them how monumentally messed up that would be. (Not saying it should necessarily be you who speaks up, I don’t know if you have that kind of realationship / clout with the c-level, but I hope someone who does, will!)

          I’m sorry for you being stuck in the middle of that.

        5. Samata*

          Well what they NEED to do is keep Fergus and get rid of the manager who hired him without getting the OK. I am guessing that is not going to be helpful, but it’s really not fair to Fergus to punish him for the manager’s actions, which is exactly what knocking him back to part-time or firing him would be. He’s not the one who did any misleading in this case. What a mess.

    7. Been there*

      Does the employer offer tuition reimbursement? Why don’t they offer to keep Fergus in the role and pay for him to complete his bachelors? My company is super degree focused in hiring, but they also will make exceptions and do encourage people to get their degrees (encourage as in pay for and support in other ways).

      This seems goofy.

      2. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        We do offer tuition reimbursment, actually. That would be an excellent compromise. I hope they come to that conclusion

        1. Specialk9*

          Any way you can mention that possibility? Mention how cool it will be of them to help someone with good skills to overcome a barrier.

        3. Anion*

          I had that thought, too, please do mention it. (Maybe you can even pull Fergus aside and, without revealing anything, tell him he ought to ask his mgr. about it–like, he can say he wants to get his Bachelor’s and will they reimburse? Maybe if he’s being proactive about it and his mgr. can report he’s starting the process, C-level will take it into account?)

    8. Observer*

      I agree that the artificial degree requirements is a load of nonsense. But the hiring manager is a jerk.

      There are a lot of ways to fight this battle that don’t require you to put someone in harm’s way. If the c-suite can’t be convinced to let this go, or to punish the hiring manager rather than Fergus, best case Fergus takes a nasty hit. I don’t care that the organization is also harming itself – they deserve it!

    9. AshK434*

      Is this a federally-funded position that mandates the degree? When I worked at a non-profit we would always include in proposals that ppl in certain roles held X degree which made them qualified. If that’s not the case, then this really sucks

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Nope! As far as I know, that is not an issue. We are a non-profit and that department does get some state funding, but it’s to fund a particular program of theirs, not to fund staffing.

    10. Anon Accountant*

      This is messed up situation. If they do let him go I hope they find him another role in the company or give him generous severance.

      Better yet they should let go of the manager who wants Fergus gone only because he doesn’t have a bachelors degree.

    11. Half-Caf Latte*

      It is interesting to see all of the disdain for degree-requirements. I agree with the examples given here, but my profession (healthcare) is actively working to improve the number of bachelors’- prepared people in the workforce, with the lofty goal of making it the entry-level standard for the profession.

      I have Thoughts And Opinions about how this is being accomplished, but there is empirical evidence that it improves patient outcomes, so I’m in favor overall.

      1. Cordelia Vorkosigan*

        Well, yes, there are some jobs where a bachelor’s degree really is necessary and/or helpful, and I feel like health care is one of them! But there are plenty of other jobs out there where a bachelor’s degree is absolutely not necessary — and not even unnecessary-but-helpful — but the job still has “bachelor’s degree” listed in the requirements. I think that’s what people are reacting to.

      2. MsChanandlerBong*

        Yeah, but requiring a degree to answer the phone is a lot different from requiring a degree to give someone a medication that could kill them. I don’t agree with the push for everyone to have a BSN, but I can see the reasoning behind it. (I’m not against degree requirements, but as someone who spends a significant amount of time in the hospital and at the hospital, I have always found the nurses from the local practical nursing program to be much more competent at running IVs and doing other practical tasks than the nurses with BSNs, assuming they have the same amount of experience.)

        1. Specialk9*

          Exactly. I’m *vehemently* against arbitrary inflation of job requirements. In health care, education on humans, pathogens, basic science, and how to learn… clearly not arbitrary.

      3. LS*

        Yes, my mother started out nursing in the 1960s with on-the-job learning, followed by getting her BSc and MSc in the 90s, then going into teaching a nursing degree. Nursing (and related professions) absolutely should have those entry requirements, because they’re actually relevant to the work being done, mean that people in more female-dominated professions have better bargaining chips for wage and conditions negotiations (compared to other fields with bachelor degrees but less responsibility and training!), and are important to understand complex systems of accreditation, safety and further learning quite separate from direct patient care. But that’s not this thread is discussing in general – they’re discussing genuine credentialism.

    12. Chaordic One*

      It reminds of bad old toxic ex-job where they were trying to hire a receptionist/entry-level admin with a college degree for $12.00/Hr.

      Meanwhile, at the same time they were also advertising for a entry-level warehouse worker who they would train to operate a forklift. This position required only a high school education, but paid $15.00/Hr.

      Is that wack or what?

    13. Anon4This*

      This LITERALLY just happened to my BIL. Working via contract company for HugeFinancial in IT for 2 years. HugeFinancial loved him so much, they wanted to hire him as permanent employee, due to his work for them and his previous work in same field (15 yrs+).

      Fast forward post background checks, they came back to him and said they couldn’t find his degree. He replied that he did not have one (which he never said he did!). They took back the job offer and tech contractor let him go. WTF?

      His non-degree from nearly 30 years ago should be irrelevant. He’s been working at Director level for eons (in previous company).

  2. who moved my cheese*

    Before this week I’d never had food taken from the work fridge, and this is hardly a egregious case, it was just…odd. I had a pack of sliced cheese in the fridge and someone took half a slice. If they’d taken the whole slice I wouldn’t even have noticed (and it’s not even fancy cheese, just supermarket stuff). But since I’m a bit paranoid(?) about food hygiene I can’t get over the thought that someone might have touched the rest of the cheese. I hate wasting food but I can’t bring myself to eat the rest. I’m almost tempted to put a note on it telling whoever took the half slice they can have the rest.

    1. Temperance*

      That’s so gross. That would really skeeve me out, too … and I would probably end up just buying the pre-packaged stuff or not bringing it at all.

      I don’t trust the kinds of people who would find it reasonable to take half a slice of someone else’s cheese to practice good hand hygiene.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Unrelated, but this week my company fired someone in Accounting for fraud and theft. The story got to my department because apparently she has a lot of payroll garnishments due to debt and a few years back she fraudulently altered and faxed Payroll a debt release to get a garnishment stopped (which was pretty quickly figured out when the debt attorney called asking why they were no longer receiving money). Why she wasn’t fired when she was caught out on that, I don’t know. But as this story makes its way around HR the part that always causes the biggest reaction is, “…and she never washed her hands whenever she went to the bathroom!”

        2. Temperance*

          We had a receptionist who didn’t wash her hands after taking loud poops. She was also obnoxious … but the poor hygiene is what we all spoke about. lol

          1. NewBoss2016*

            Our CEO straight up openly refuses to wash their hands after using the restroom because “that wasn’t a ‘thing’ back in the day” and they think we are now just creating resistant bacteria, etc. I am not at all a germaphobe, so I just regularly disinfect my area and wash my own hands, but I know a lot of people who would be really bothered.

            2. Ange*

              But unless you’re using antibac soap you’re just washing microorganisms down the drain. Pretty sure that doesn’t create antibiotic resistance.

        3. Drew*

          I went to tell our facilities manager that the men’s room was out of soap. A coworker overheard me and said, “Yeah, i noticed that a couple of hours ago.” I wanted to ask him why he didn’t say anything, but the horrible implications of following that line of thought dissuaded me.

      2. Close Bracket*

        “don’t trust the kinds of people who would find it reasonable to take half a slice of someone else’s cheese to practice good hand hygiene.”

        I don’t see the connection. I could even argue the other direction, that someone who touches food when they serve themselves must have excellent hygiene.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          The connection is that someone who thinks it’s reasonable to manhandle someone else’s food while tearing off a half a piece of cheese is probably the same someone who thinks just because they didn’t obviously soil their hands in the bathroom means their hands are “clean enough” and don’t wash up.
          Doesn’t mean it’s true, just means it’s pretty darn likely. More likely than, “I’d like to grab a half slice of someone else’s cheese, let me wash up properly before I defile their food without their knowledge or permission.”

    2. RachelR*

      Your name though. I’m dying. My awful internship made us all read that book after the company got acquired.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Ha! My church had a weekly adult ed session on Sunday mornings after the service and coffee hour – wide-ranging, often secular topics, like a local historian presenting about a nearby cemetery or Doris and Herb sharing photos of their trip to Argentina. One day a church member presented the whole allegorical plot from that book as a clip-art-filled PowerPoint. I was about 15. It was …interesting.

          1. Artemesia*

            I read the book literally cover to cover in a few minutes at an airport bookstore; it defines lightweight and it takes a talent to monitize any stupid thing. I have won two raffle items: the complete speeches of Jimmy Carter on Microfiche and a case of orange pineapple drink.

    3. GreyjoyGardens*

      That *is* rather gross to think about, someone putting their fingers all over your food – which they had to do if they just took half. And you never know if this person is one of those “I only wash my hands if someone is watching” people.

      I’m sympathetic, because I’m extra-careful about food safety due to the fact that I seem to get an upset stomach from anything “off” very easily. And I hate to waste food, but I’d rather that than an upset tummy for an afternoon.

    5. Turtlewings*

      They probably took half a slice because they just really desperately needed (for some reason) half a slice of cheese and didn’t want to steal any more than they actually needed. (I would have just taken the whole thing anyway, since that’s actually less weird, but it was probably well-intentioned.) Being suspicious of the rest of the cheese seems extremely unnecessary — aren’t they individually wrapped? Or am I visualizing the wrong kind of cheese?

      1. Infinity Anon*

        I stole food from the office one time. I suddenly started to go hypoglycemic. Sweating, shaking and vision fading. I grabbed a coworkers juice and drank it. As soon as I was able, I went down to the cafe, bought real food and two juices and brought them to the coworker and apologized and explained what happened. I can definitely see borrowing food if it is really and emergency, but I don’t understand not replacing it ASAP.

      2. MoinMoin*

        I visualized the kind you get sliced at a deli, so altogether, maybe with paper separating slices, in a ziplock bag.

      3. bridget*

        I mean, maybe they desperately needed it, but in most offices I think it’s far more likely that it wasn’t a “desperate need with no other options” situation, just a person who opportunistically nicks unguarded food. Plus, there was another option – the cheese thief, if truly about to starve due to a lack of 45 calories and in a financial position where they could not even access the smallest possible snack, probably could have just asked who moved my cheese “hey, can I have a slice of your cheese”?

        1. Turtlewings*

          Well, yeah, obviously a true cheese emergency is unlikely, it would be something more like “my sandwich really needs just a little more cheese to taste good oh please i can’t stand eating this without cheese.” But even if the cheese had a name on it, the thief may not have known who that was or how to contact them. I just feel like guilt is the only plausible explanation for leaving the half-slice. That or trolling.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      It is endlessly fascinating, the contortions people go through when stealing food. This takes the reasoning “so long as I never quite finish the bottle, they won’t notice some of it is gone” and applies it to individually wrapped slices of cheese.

      1. Jadelyn*

        “As long as I leave 3 drops of creamer in the bottom of the bottle, it should be okay, right?”

        No, I don’t speak from experience, why do you ask?

        Of course there was the one time when someone actually *did* not only finish my flavored creamer I’d brought in, but very considerately threw the bottle away for me. I still don’t know who did it but if I ever find out, gods help them.

      2. crookedfinger*

        Yep, this is how I went from a whole carton of half-and-half to just a few drops in less than a day at my old job. Multiple people thinking “I’ll just take a little bit, she’ll never know.”

        1. Specialk9*

          I’d fantasize about leaving a carton of half and half at each person’s desk on Friday evening… and then not do it, of course.

      3. Hermione*

        Now I’m imagining someone trying to top off a half slice of cheese, like teenagers stealing liquor from their parent’s cabinet. Of course, cheese would require some creative molding on the part of the artist… Ugh.

    7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      What kind of monster only eats half a slice of cheese??? (kidding)

      Seriously though, that’s really weird. Seems like more work to take half a slice. I’m picturing the individual wrapped slices and just can’t imagine why you’d open a slice and just take half.

      1. Infinity Anon*

        It kind of reminds me of the last donut that everyone keeps taking smaller and smaller pieces of because no one wants to be the one to eat the last donut. Just eat it!

        1. LavaLamp*

          We don’t have that here; we have someone obsessed with those cake donuts that NEVER get eaten because cake donuts are an insult to fried dough.
          Thankfully my coworkers mostly agree with me and will come and grab me if my favorite doughnut happens to make a rare appearance.

          Also; my boss had this happen a few months ago. She had brought in a little box of presliced/packaged cheese. Someone ate all but one of them. She was rather annoyed, and I don’t blame her since I know she’d have shared if someone asked. That’s what gets me. Everyone I know around here generally shares their goodies, so why steal and make someone not want to share with you?

          1. Green T*

            Perhaps the cleaning crew? Or security staff? The security staff at my work kept stealing string cheese. It became obvious who was doing it when the security company was replace with a different company. No more string cheese thefts after that.

            1. LavaLamp*

              We don’t have a security staff, and the cleaning crew didn’t actually clean that building as it was temporary. We all concluded it had to have been somebody in the office. It was just weird, because all they’d have had to do was ask for some.

      2. H.C.*

        Maybe the co-worker wanted the whole slice but the cheese tore halfway, and didn’t feel like doing the work of extracting the other half too.

    8. who moved my cheese*

      Quick clarification: cheese was not individually wrapped, and come to think of it it’d be pretty hard to not touch the rest (or at least the adjacent slice) when pulling out half unless they used tweezers or something…

      1. BlueWolf*

        Yeah, I assumed from your comment that it was one of those packages where they are not individually wrapped, but each slice is sort of separated by a little piece of paper. In a way it is almost more considerate that they only took half so that they left evidence behind that it had been tampered with (lol). Like you said, you wouldn’t have noticed if they took a whole slice and wouldn’t have known about possible germy hands contamination (ick).

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        So I’m now imagining tweezers in the hands of someone suspended from above, Mission Impossible style…

      3. Anion*

        Those always break for me, actually. When you take off the slice, the part that touches the next slice always sticks. Maybe that’s why?

    9. WellRed*

      Definitely put a note on it. That solves both the food waste issue and sort of calls them out on it at the same time.

    10. k.k*

      I once has someone disassemble my sandwich to steal a piece of cheese. I had a very simple sandwich in a tupperware, just two slices of bread, two slices of cheese, and some lunch meat. Someone stole one slice of cheese off of it.

      The next day I bought a lunch bag and ice pack, and never used the shared fridge again.

      2. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

        That’s up there with the time I brought some leftover Chinese food for lunch, only to open the container to find only half of my egg roll. Yes, someone ate part of the egg roll and put it back on top of the rice, thus rendering the whole damned thing unsafe in my eyes.

        1. Witty Nickname*

          Ewww…I had that happen with fried chicken. Someone took a piece, ate it, and then put the bones back in the box, rendering the rest of the food (lunch for both my husband and me that day) disgusting and inedible.

      3. Samata*

        i am really sorry but I just laugh-snorted pretty loudly. This takes it to an entirely new level.

    11. Shiara*

      This is so bizarre.

      Is there any chance someone accidentally knocked it out of the fridge or spilled something on it or something so they were trying to clean up/fix the contaminated bit? I just can’t imagine someone thinking that leaving half a slice would be less obvious than just taking the whole thing.

    12. clow*

      I cannot understand people who think it is ok to steal other people’s food. It doesn’t matter how much it cost, or what it was, it is stealing plain and simple. Since they put their hands all over it, they might as well have stolen the entire package because who knows what the heck they touched before putting their hands on your food.

    13. Accidental Analyst*

      We once had someone steal half a boiled egg. They bitten it and then placed it face down in the salad so the salad owner wouldn’t notice

    14. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      We had some leftover donuts from an employee recognition event put out yesterday morning and, under the saran wrap, no less, there was a donut with a single bite out of it on top. I mean, really?! Just take the whole donut!

    15. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I’m thinking it’s like a pack of Kraft cheese–no separating paper, just a hunk of pre-sliced cheese. No way to really get those out without touching the rest of the cheese.

      If you really wanted to try to save it but you’re worried about germs, you could always take the top and bottom slice off then cutoff the edges. Seems like a lot of work with no guarantee that someone won’t do it again, though. Might be best to leave the note.

  3. UpperPylon*

    I am an entrepreneur working on a low-cost device to automate a common task in many labs. I am trying contact professors at a local university to get early feedback about this project and place a prototype for free, in a lab for testing. I have tried some cold emails and I haven’t received any responses. I am looking for advice from people in academia and research. Specifically what language I should use and how in general I should approach people about this?

    1. TallTeapot*

      Unless you have a personal connection with the faculty member, it’ll be really difficult to get traction with them on this. They get lots of email and just throw most of it out. You might have more success reaching out to the post-doc(s) who are actually in charge of running the day-to-day functions of the lab. But depending on what the technology is and what it does, if they’re running very precise experiments and need to keep conditions consistent, they might not be interested no matter what. If that invention could affect replication efforts, could mess with results, etc, it’s hard for them to take the risk when the potential costs are higher than the benefits.

    2. Simone R*

      Lab managers tend to be the people who make these decisions in larger labs. How common is the task? Make sure you’re reaching out to labs that will definitely use it. I think networking would work much better than cold emailing though-if you don’t have a connection to people I think they’d be unlikely to want to spend time and effort on testing this for you as most people are pretty busy. Selling it as a “collaboration” to another engineering lab might be your best bet.

    3. Stelmselms*

      Is there a Commercialization or Technology department within the Research Office at the campus? As an administrative office, they work with the different academic units/colleges on campus and might be able to help push this out to the labs more broadly.

    4. selina kyle*

      Email lab or building managers, those are going to be the people who will actually (possibly) email back or be able to make those decisions. Good luck – it’s pretty tough to get in from outside academia honestly. :/

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I know someone who owns a company making lab equipment. The local university here recently had a big expansion of engineering labs, and his company supplied a lot of that equipment. He already has ties to the university (and I’d assume other universities or private labs). Could partnering with a company like that be an avenue?

    6. fposte*

      I’m not in hard science, but I’d say your ROI on emails is going to be tragically low. In my area I would consider trying a conference–see if there’s a state-level one, where things are lower key–where you can grab somebody face to face and treat them to coffee. There may also be in-conference messaging or postings where you can post this as a query. Yes, you would have to pay to attend the conference (though often you can get a day pass), but that’s part of the point–that would be a demonstration of your commitment and that you’re not just asking for a favor at no cost to you.

      2. Southern Ladybug*

        This is a great idea. I’m not in a lab science either, but am academia/academia adjacent. I get a lot of emails trying to sell me things/post content/etc that I would miss something like what you described b/c i just don’t read past the subject/first line if it’s not from someone I know already. Too much email coming in.

    7. Dalia524*

      I’m a lab manager, and I’m the one who connects with vendors, places orders, etc. You definitely want to talk to lab/building managers, post docs, technicians, or students. My university also has “vendor days” where we can go talk to various vendors, large and small, about their products, and they give out samples, do demos, etc.

      You can try going to the building if access isn’t restricted. It’s pretty aggressive, but it’s normal. Most lower level scientists are too polite/shy to blow you off to your face. If you have specific departments or professors you’d like to work with, you might be able to figure out who’s in their lab by looking at their papers. Email addresses are usually available on a public database. If you can get a contact, you can say you want to do a “demo lunch”… aka buy pizza and all of the graduate students will show up.

      1. Hermione*

        Oh demo + free food always brings graduate students. Have a veggie-friendly option. Weirdly, 60% of my grad students were either vegan or vegetarian (social sciences).

      2. Ms. Mad Scientist*

        Please don’t go around walking in random labs. We get those from time to time and I hate it.

        It’s also typically not effective. Hand me a catalog, I’ll throw it in the trash.

        It’s better to do the product shows.

    8. Hermione*

      As someone who used to work as a dept. admin supporting faculty, I used to get 10-15 of cold e-mails per week. You would be better off contacting lab managers than faculty, but I expect you would have better luck with personal in’s, if you have any mutual connections. Maybe attend a lecture if a ranking faculty member holds one, and then talk to them afterwards? Graduate students sometimes are less spammed, they might bring it up if you get in touch with them?

      Also, your e-mail should be super personalized to the person you’re writing.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I’ve been admin support in a tech sort of department and would get approached several times per month by entrepreneurs with the “best idea ever”. Usually the faculty just wanted to be shielded from them, because in their experience, none of the queries has been for the best idea ever. I second the advice that the best thing to do is acquire an “in” with a faculty member or lab manager, or someone who hasn’t been deputized to basically screen you out.

    9. Postdoc*

      Can you tell us a little more about what it does? Obviously nothing too specific, but does it deal with bench work or computer work? And does it have to be sterile? How expensive are the reagents that would be used with it? I work in a biomedical lab and it is very very hard to make changes to established protocols. If something is working, no one wants to mess with it. If it is something that has to do with bench work, the time savings would have to be huge for it to be considered. If you are talking about a process where samples need to be sterile, most labs would be hesitant to try a prototype from an unfamiliar company. If reagents are expensive then it is a non-starter at least where I work because they wouldn’t want to risk wasting the reagents. In academia, money is much more precious than time since there are tons of postdocs and grad students who do not get paid overtime.

      1. UpperPylon*

        It is bench work and is nonsterile. It’s an automated pipetting system that leverages computer vision to automatically find 96 well trays and reagent sources. So the reagents cost varies depending on the process run. Initially, I am planning on targeting 3 tasks PCR prep, ELISA prep and bacterial plaque assays (the device has a very easy way to do serial dilutions)

        1. Anon forever*

          How easy is it to calibrate compared to a traditional pipette and does it work with filter tips? If it is easy to calibrate and can use filter tips, I think your best bet might be to get a booth at a conference to demonstrate it. Alternately, you can try to get grad students interested. They tend to get less spam and so are more likely to read your e-mail and they are the ones who will be saving time. But overall it sounds like industry might be a better target than academia.

          1. UpperPylon*

            Thanks for the reply. It can use filter tips. We haven’t automated calibration yet. We plan on using a plate reader and a fluorescent dye to do performance verification and calibration. The results could be compared with a known pipette and entered into the software to allow the machine to make adjustments.

            1. Lora*

              How does it compare to the liquid hangling already out on the market from Eppendorf, Rainin, etc? Universities and nonprofits will care if it’s cheaper, but for industry there’s a lot of validation that you have to be able to beat. I love buying from known large manufacturers because then I don’t have to have the conversation with the FDA that goes like this:

              FDA auditor: What is this?
              Me: A liquid handler. It does our small scale HTS pipetting for us, 96 well plates and stuff.
              FDA: Huh, never seen one like this. What kind is it?
              Me: It’s a prototype from a small local company who designed it from scratch.
              FDA: Uh…where is the UL sticker / manual / validation package / training for operators / SOP / Part 11 compliance documents?
              Me: ….yeah, about that….uhhh…

              vs the conversation I like to have:
              FDA auditor: What is this?
              Me: A liquid handler. It does our small scale HTS pipetting for us, 96 well plates and stuff.
              FDA: Oh, Hamilton. Nice. That must have cost a lot. Where’s the validation binder?
              Me: It’s electronic, here’s the file. Do you need it printed out?
              FDA: Nope, let’s just look at the next unit operation.

              1. Sam Carter*

                I was about to write a very similar reply. What’s your intended market and how is this different from the well known automated liquid handlers already on market? If you haven’t already established a quality and validation system, your preliminary data won’t carry you very far. It sounds like you should hire a consultant (expensive, yes, but necessary).

              2. UpperPylon*

                Thanks for the question. Basically, it is very stripped down and basic compared to the liquid handling systems on the market. The goal is to make a system that is in the same ballpark cost wise as a set of handheld electronic pipettes. There are no fixed positions for trays or reagents and the user interface will be an image of the working area. Commands are given by click and dragging on objects highlighted in the image. There is no programming or syntax.

                While we don’t have any of that documentation now we have team members that have cleared these hurdles for other pieces of lab equipment currently on the market. This is something we will need to think about going forward thanks for bringing it up!

            2. Mike C.*

              Is this calibration method certified? I used to do a ton of ISO 17025 pipette calibration, and the idea of using a “reference” pipette seems like a really bad idea to me.

              1. Postdoc*

                I would be hesitant to use a pipette that is not directly calibrated. For the experiments I do, small variation can actually make a huge difference.

                1. UpperPylon*

                  Do you mind telling me how do you currently calibrate your pipettes and how often do you check their performance? I have done some gravimetric calibration with the device and the pipetting can be fully automated but the recording and processing of the data still had to be done by hand. I really appreciate the constructive feedback.

                2. Lora*

                  We have Agilent do it. They have a support service that comes around to collect them. Other places we’ve had Rainin do it because they will do repairs at the same time and if your piston is too messed up (perhaps one of the associates tried to pipette TFA…) they will give you a good deal on a trade-in for one of their brand.

                  I liked Rainin better. Plus for whatever reason, their tips fling really well. Like throwing tips at a dartboard :D

        2. Postdoc*

          The main hurdle will be that initially they will need to the experiments in duplicate (one with your pipetter and one with the old one) in order to validate that they can trust the data. Is it an option to provide some of the reagents as well? I think you are going to have to give them a larger incentive than a free prototype.

          1. UpperPylon*

            Thanks for the follow-up reply. I think that would be possible and I think that is a good idea. I will keep that in mind.

        3. Mike C.*

          It’s been a while since I was a lab rat, but this sounds like something lots of labs already have.

    10. Sutemi*

      Do you need to test it in an academic lab? Why not industrial research (Phama, etc.)?

      In academia, labor is cheap but dollars for equipment and automation are limited. In industry, labor is expensive but there is a lot more money and emphasis on ROI, time savings, automation etc.

      1. UpperPylon*

        We believe industrial research has invested in large-scale expensive solutions to the problem we are attempting to solve. We are offering a barebones prototype for free in return for their time essentially so it made sense to us to offer it to institutions with surplus time.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          I think you’re a step or two ahead of yourself. Contacting faculty (or lab managers) is what you need to do when you’ve got a commercial product – something that’s been tested and certified and calibrated. What you’re doing now is asking for free prototype testing for your future product, which is something that is going to cost time and money, for no reward on their part. The possibility of a cheap product, sometime in the future, if it works and makes it to market, is not an incentive.

          Graduate students and postdocs, the people who are going to be doing the actual work, don’t typically have a lot of free time to give away (and neither do the lab managers and faculty).

    11. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      In my experience, academics across the board are just terrible at replying to email. I know that sounds like a generalization, but it’s been true for me across schools, across geography, across area of expertise… heck, even when I literally just need a bit of info so I can send them money we owe them, it’s hard to get a response. I don’t even have any advice, other than maybe to reach out to parts of the school that might interact with external partners more (maybe business office? facilities? idk) and asking them who to reach out to?

    12. PNW Dan*

      I’m at a community college (no research) and *I* get a ridiculous amount of cold email from people selling lab equipment. I can’t imagine how much of this actual research professors get.

      Your best bet is to get to conferences to meet with the researchers (professors, post docs and grad students) in person, in the vendor hall.

    13. Nye*

      Do you have any personal contacts in academia? If you know Prof. X, and she suggests you might work with Dr. Y and is willing to connect you with him, I think you’ll have better luck than cold emailing. I get cold emails fairly regularly, and if they’re not either a) from someone I know and respect, or b) super-specifically targeted at my work and clearly sent by someone who did their homework, I’m not going to respond. There’s just not enough time to respond to every out-of-the-blue request, and they tend to be big time sinks rather than ultimately useful.

  4. Green Buttons*

    I recently went through an interview process for a Teapot Marketing job. Right before the second interview with the VP, the hiring manager said that there was re-organization on the team and the position was no longer part of the picture.

    Today, I noticed that there was a job posting for a Teapot Developer within the same department, but within a different team. I felt like I had a good repore with my original interviewer and would have gotten the job if circumstances didn’t change. Should I reach out and ask if she can connect me to the hiring manager for the Teapot Developer positions?

    My concern is that my skills were very aligned with the Teapot Marketer position and only somewhat aligned for the Teapot Developer role. I think it’s still something I’d be able to do, and I’d like to go into development, but it might come off as strange that I want to apply for something that doesn’t completely reflect my experience. I’m also not sure about asking the Marketing hiring manager to refer me when I’ve never actually worked with her.

    Your insights are appreciated!

    1. Infinity Anon*

      I don’t think it is weird to apply. You can explain in your cover letter why you are interested and why you think you are a good fit even though it isn’t obvious from your resume. I wouldn’t ask the other interviewer to recommend you though. You don’t actually know them either professionally or personally. They are basically an acquaintance.

      2. Green Buttons*

        Feel free to correct me. I 100% knew that wasn’t right when I wrote this out, but failed to edit. Ugh.

    4. Haley*

      I think you should do exactly what you suggested – reach back out and say you’re still really interested in working for the company, and I think I also have the skills suited for the Teapot Developer position (briefly explain which skills) and if she would be willing to connect you. Wouldn’t be weird at all.

  5. Monsters Of Men*

    Story time! Tell me about your annoying coworkers! I am frustrated with one of mine but I would rather just commiserate than vent!

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Two of my co-workers are LOUD talkers. They usually come into the lunchroom around the same time I’m in there on a break. They are not hard of hearing, just came from loud talking families (I heard one of them actually say that.) You can hear them through heavy walls that are banked by soda/vending machines, and when one of them gets excitable about a subject, she goes louder, and louder, and louder. But boy…they can surely speak very quietly when they are gossiping about someone! Sigh….I just want to read my book.

      2. SNS*

        I switched offices a couple months ago to escape loud talkers and then we did some office shuffling again this month and now different loud talkers are in the office next to mine. I swear it’s inescapable

        1. starsaphire*

          Oh dear skies, the loud talkers.

          There’s one whose cube is back-to-back with mine. And he’s always on the phone, and he is always shouting.

          I can do nothing about this because:
          * He is doing technical support.
          * …in another language.
          * …for field service personnel, who are generally in noisy rooms.

          My job, of course, requires sharp focus and attention to detail, which for me means relative quiet, or something predictable that I can filter out.

          Thank goodness for classical music, up loud, on YouTube and Pandora…

      3. Sara*

        Oh there’s a woman in my office that is so so loud. She’s a nice enough person but ALWAYS has some sort of drama in her life. And she’ll tell the same story like five or six times to different people, but because she’s so loud, you just hear it over and over. I’ve only snapped once when she was complaining (repeatedly) about a client and told her “Get over it!”. Fortunately, everyone else was annoyed too and laughed at me saying “If Sara’s at her limit, you know you’ve gone too far”, so she went back to her office to work.

        1. Language Student*

          I know someone like that – not so much the drama, but the retelling the same story loudly, individually, to like 5 different people who are all in the same room. The stories aren’t that bad! It’s just hearing them so often that’s a bit grating.

        2. Kalamet*

          My office has a chronic complainer. I used to sit near him and he complains all the time – in casual chitchat, on phone calls to clients, in staff meetings. He will occasionally circulate through all of the team’s cubicles and recite the same complaints over and over. The most common complaint, of course, is how he doesn’t have time to get anything done. *eyeroll*

      4. Ama*

        Heh. We’re still getting used to our new office (we actually have more space per person, but the layout is such that sound carries a lot further than it did in our old one), and the two loudest talkers (who, unfortunately, are also two of the people whose jobs require a lot of conversations) have been out of the office all week. Everyone has been commenting on how quiet it is. I like them both but it has been a welcome break.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Maybe you can decorate your new office with some kind of fabric art, which will hopefully absorb some of the sound. And maybe some plants, real or otherwise.

        2. As Close As Breakfast*

          Sometimes office acoustics are mind boggling! My coworker in the office next to me is a loud talker that has daily Skype calls with her family back in her home country.* So for 1-3 hours a day I get to listen to her yell with family and friends in a foreign language. Sometimes she’s in her office right next to me. Other times she’s in the kitchen at the other end of the hall from my office, and somehow it’s louder when she’s way down the hall than right next to me! At least those days I can close my office door and the sound doesn’t reverberate through the wall like it does when she’s in her office. Sigh.

          * Nothing to be done about this as she’s the company owners wife. Double sigh.

      5. Mallory Janis Ian*

        One of my coworkers randomly switches to whispering parts of her conversation. Like, she’ll be having a normal conversation, and then she switches over to whispering for only parts of it. I hate whispering, so the whispered parts of the conversation are really grating for me to listen to. Also it’s distracting from the conversation, because part of my mind is occupied with trying to figure out what distinguishes the parts that she whispers from the parts where she uses her normal voice, and I haven’t figured it out yet.

        1. Specialk9*

          That would be so distracting. If someone whispers something like “Sharon and her manager are ((very… close))” or “they’re, you know, ((black))” you know that they’re being gossipy or racist. If someone says “you open this folder, ((then you right click on File)), then zoom out to 125%” I’d be sitting there trying to figure out why they are whispering and if there’s some right-click scandal I missed and aah¡, and miss everything they’re saying.

      6. So Very Anonymous*

        I have a colleague who is a loud and frequent talker who seems to punctuate every other sentence with a piercingly loud nervous laugh.

      7. Anonforthis*

        One of my colleagues has the loudest, shrillest, shriekiest laugh EVER. And she laughs as a nervous tic. I know she can’t help it but it is legitimately nails on a chalkboard for me. It’s so loud, it just cuts over everything. 100 people could be talking at once and her laughing would carry over all of them.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      The creepy coworker who is known for taking as much free food and snacks as possible, sometimes not leaving anything for others.

      The girl who randomly bursts out laughing super loud. We’re a relaxed casual office but god this is too much.

      The new dude who randomly forwards me an email
      W no background no msg.

      For now that’s about it.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I had a coworker who I never saw do or say anything remotely impolite in any other situation, but he would lose his mind if free food was involved.

        His manners in any other situation were impeccable, but if there was a buffet, he was always the first person at the front of the line (even if other people were holding back to allow, say, a guest or other honoree to go first). He would pile up his plate until it was conspicuously more than anyone else was taking, and he was territorial about the leftovers. The admins would put everything in the fridge after an event, and he would go to the fridge, like, six times compared to one or two visits by everyone else. He would declare that he was taking home items that we planned to save as leftovers that everyone could eat the next day.

        He even showed up early to a reception at the department head’s house. The hot catered food was still covered because none of the guests had arrived yet, and he announced to the hostess, “I guess I’ll go ahead and get started”, and he just uncovered everything and fixed himself a plate.

        It still boggles my mind. I’ve seen other people be impolite about food before, but they all had other noticeable issues with their manners besides just that. He’s the only one I’ve ever met who has really good manners in every other respect but just can’t control himself when it’s about competition over food.

        1. LAI*

          I had a similar coworker. When we had leftovers from events, we would go around the office and notify everyone else first, because if she got there first, there’d be nothing left for anyone else.

        2. Specialk9*

          Any chance that guy was going hungry? Like the lady who wrote in that she was living on office cupcakes?

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            No, he was part of a group that I would eat lunch with, and he always had nice leftovers from the previous day’s meal or else we would go to a restaurant and buy lunch. He and his wife are both well paid professors (not that that precludes someone having trouble that might lead to food insecurity — you never know based on income alone). But I saw evidence that he was regularly eating well, but he had some sort of issue around competition for free stuff (I only ever saw it in relation to food, but who’s to say if it might also have come out if there was anything else laid out and free for the taking).

            1. Pamalamadingding*

              I work at a university and free food is the siren call to all academics, apparently. If you feed them, they will come. Perhaps this guy suffers somea carryover from ramen/starving student days?

            2. NS*

              Could be that he had food insecurity for a long time in the past – a friend of mines dad who was in the army in China is like this with food. Her mom has to separately serve him and portion out his leftovers or he’ll eat everything, even if he’s not hungry because for a long time he had to eat quickly and as much as he could because he there wouldnt be anything left if he didn’t.

        3. Green T*

          We had a guy that would eat the leftovers out of the garbage can. Someone thought there wasn’t enough left to keep and tossed the remaining cake into the garbage. He stood at the garbage can to eat the cake.

        4. Maybe?*

          Oh, this reminds me! Background:
          my brother loves sampling everything he can, and would be that person taking everything from a buffet

          Story: The head honcho’s secretary had a charity Christmas thing every year – house all decked out, catered, etc. Thousands of employees work there, so we wouldn’t recognize each other from Adam, and it wasn’t an advertised thing, more for the higher ups. One of my closer co workers somehow was talking to the secretary one day, and she told her to come by and see the decorations. The invitation was extended to us through that in a “yeah, let anyone interested know” kind of way. It was last minute so I didn’t go (I wasn’t sure how legit it was). The next year, we were told in advance and there was a flyer. Now, this was more of a “come see the house decorations” not “be at the charity event” (again, that was for higher ups or big hitters in the community) so I thought the charity event was the next evening. My brother and I were out and about, and I said, hey, let’s check it out. There are a lot of people there, so I think “good, we’re not alone” we walk in, see some decorations, then I notice the head honcho about and start getting suspicious. Then I notice the catering trays, and my brother near them. I manage to quietly but effectively relay the message to him with just hard looks: DO NOT EAT FROM THE BUFFET. Then I just succinctly told him “we have to go” he was like “but are there more decorations upstairs?” “We have to go now”

          I explained to him in the car, and he asked “So… Did we basically just do a home invasion?”

          And that’s how I accidentally did a holiday home invasion.

    3. all aboard the anon train*

      One of my coworkers thinks he’s knowledgeable about everything and is, in fact, knowledgeable about nothing. On top of that, he’s a huge mansplainer (he once tried to mansplain my second language’s alphabet to me despite the fact that he doesn’t even speak it). He gets really angry (pounding on desks angry) if you try to correct him about something, especially if you’re a woman.

      He also loves to call himself an ally to every cause but has so many unconscious biases. He’s so obvious about trying to get to know all the women in the office and gets snippy when they don’t want to spend time eating lunch with him or chatting when he stops at their desk. He likes to try and hang out with some male coworkers who he thinks are “cool bros”, but these guys avoid him like the plague. He’s so annoying that everyone tries to avoid working with him or talking to him.

      Basically, he’s a creep and annoying and no one likes him, and he’s managed to skate under management’s radar because there are other people who are so bad at their jobs that he looks good in comparison.

      2. fposte*

        Heh. I have a colleague known for painful and uninterruptable long-windedness who once cornered several women to tell them how awful misogyny was and how important it is they tell him if he’s ever being anti-feminist. Um, kind of now?

      3. College Career Counselor*

        The first part of that makes me think, “Holy Dunning-Kruger Effect, Batman!” (D-K developed tests to determine that, among other things, the MOST incompetent/unskilled among us also think that they’re among the top at whatever that skill may be.)

      4. Lady Kelvin*

        Do we work in the same office? Because that’s my guy too. We (the girls) strategize on how to interact/avoid him and use lots of AAM and Captain Awkward scripts to set boundaries.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      The guy behind me who continually pops his gum. Or incessantly clicks his pen. Or utters every though out loud.

      The woman who always talks in a baby voice.

      Or the woman who giggles after every word.

      The guy who slams stuff around and cusses, top volume, whenever he’s slightly inconvenienced.

      1. Thrillho*

        My boss is a sociopath and a bully, and doesn’t know how to be nice in a normal, human-emotion-having way. So when she encounters a situation in which a normal person would act nice in a normal way, she talks in this really obnoxious, really high-pitched baby voice. She also does this to condescend to people, so sometimes you have to play a guessing game about which situation you’re in. Needless to say, I’m job searching.

    5. Janine Willcall*

      I have a coworker who asks questions about me to lead-in to trying to show off his knowledge. An example:

      Annoying Guy: Hey, I see that you have an Eiffel Tower desk toy. Have you been to France?
      Me: Yes, I–
      AG: I know all about France. Let me list all the cities in France for you.
      Me: No, please–
      AG: Paris. Nice. Normandy. Lyon. Lille. Rennes.

      And so on. Repeat for any topic he wants to talk about…

      1. Jesca*

        Haha wait. Are you being facetious or is that exactly how the conversations go? Like he just walks over and brings up some country and then starts naming off its cities? Haha omg. I score waayyyy too low in agreeableness to tolerate that at the time, but would see laugh about it later!

        1. Janine Willcall*

          OK, OK, not literally. In reality he’ll say something like “Have you been to Paris? Nice? Lyon? Lille? Rennes? Normandy?”

          I have to cut him off mid-list all the time, but it does make for a good laugh later!

      2. Argh!*

        My old food nazi baited me this way. “Ooooh that smells good. What is it?” Me: stupidly tells food nazi what I’m going to eat at my desk. Food nazi: “Do you know how much cholesterol is in that, not to mention calories?”

        Yes, I do. Go back to your desk and switch to annoying us with your vegetable-induced loud-as-a-freight-train farting!

    6. Just a thought*

      My last job one of the managers in my department really liked to talk but wasn’t good about reading social cues. He would wander around the office telling everyone the same story that was super interesting to him and really boring to everyone else. When I left he was taking karate with his family. My sister is a black belt in Taekwondo and I know more about his karate than I ever did about her Taekwondo.
      Then he would complain about all the work he had to do. He also came in at 9 and left at 4, would make kind of racist/misogynist comments, and stupid jokes.

      1. Lissa*

        I first read that as “liked to talk about how he wasn’t good at reading social cues” and was like “hmm…self awareness at least?”

    7. Thlayli*

      Omg I worked with this guy once who was the laziest person ever. There were 3 of us in the team at the time and he was the most junior. The other member and I were both assigned a number of tasks to manage when our boss went away for a couple weeks and somehow we both got the impression he was working for the other. She sat beside him I was over he partition. After 2 1/2 days the other coworker said to me “what is Fergus doing for you every time I look at his screen he’s on hotmail”. That was when we discovered he hadn’t actually been assigned any work and he was sitting there knowing the two of us were working our butts off trying o get through our work and our bosses work and he was doing NOTHING! For 2 1/2 days.
      Another time I had made a spreadsheet containing a bunch of info for a project. Client asked me in a meeting to tell him the total from about 8 pieces of work – which equates to 8 lines in this spreadsheet. This was at a meeting and I didn’t have access to the laptop so I emailed him on my blackberry told him exactly where to look to the detail even of which line to look at and expected an answer back in 5 mins. Nothing. Meeting ended, told the client I would send on that info, went back to office with my boss, and told my boss I Could get it in two mins and send on. My boss by this stage was suspicious of Fergus having been Told about previous issues and he told me explicitly not to do it as it had been assigned to Fergus and I shouldn’t be doing his work for him.
      I mentioned it to Fergus when we got back and he fobbed me off that he was too busy doing a different task but would do it by the end of the day (to reiterate this was literally adding 8 lines in an existing spreadsheet – 5 mins max to do it and send the email.
      Towards the end of the day Fergus sends out an email to all the members of the team, attaches the spreadsheet (which had been stored on the drive so already accessible to everyone in our organisation), and included the info in the cover email. So technically he did eventually do the task.
      When I opened the spreadsheet he ha put in all manner of fancy formatting to make it look pretty which did not add any info as it was already perfectly clearly delineated and he made the email sound as if he had produced the spreadsheet.
      He got loads of praise from the client for producing such a useful spreadsheet.
      I told my boss exactly what had happened. He was well aware of what a lazy so-and-so Fergus was but he never got fired or reprimanded to my knowledge.

    8. NicoleK*

      My annoying coworker does the following: is running late/behind 90% of the time, tells me schedule changes last minute (I’m lucky if I get 24 hr notice that she needs the day off, has an offsite meeting, needs to leave early and etc), needs CONSTANT reassurance due to her anxiety, barely knows how to operate her computer (I’ve become her back up IT support by default), and frequently ask me if I’m okay.

      Yes, I’ve spoken to her about the last minute schedule changes. And nothing has changed. It’s just her and I and we need to work closely together.

      1. Anon for this*

        I have huge anxiety about asking for time off because of a toxic boss who the more notice I gave came up with more reasons I couldn’t have the time. I was refused time off to move house because having to take time off work proved I was disorganized, when it was agreed with HR that I was to take two weeks together to use time I was owed and get away from work demanded I come in on two random days in the two weeks which would have meant I didn’t have even a whole week off. And said it was my fault i needed to come in until i said I’d have to involve HR to change the agreement.
        It made me put everything off until the last minute that even now 5 years on with reasonable bosses I annoy them (less often now) by asking at the last minute. I promise I’m getting better but it is hard still. If possible, maybe check out why everything is last moment. I’ve said it to current boss and apologised because I can trust them and it is making me better.

    9. k8*

      if i send the visual designer a few messages on slack at once, he only reads the very last one . . . like . . . are you ignoring me on purpose? do you not see the other messages? are you just assuming they aren’t important?? drives me nuts

      1. Turquoisecow*

        I’ve worked with many people who, if you send an email with more than one question, will answer only one.

        Even if you write it out in bullets like
        1. Question one
        2. Question two
        3. Question three

        They will reply to either the first or the last (usually the first because they can’t be bothered to read anything) and then I have to write back something like “ok thanks for answering question 1. What about…?”

        It’s best to not ask question 2 until one has been answered. And don’t send multiple emails, they’ll assume they’re all on the same topic and only answer one.

        1. LAI*

          I have to say I was guilty of this recently. I read all of the questions, I just didn’t want to answer one of them because it would require me to use political capital with another office that I didn’t want to use. So I just answered the first question and pretended I didn’t see the other one. So far, I seem to have gotten away with it.

        2. DaniCalifornia*

          My boss does this. He will even answer a question with yes or no, when that is not an actual answer to my question?

          Me: Would you prefer green or red teapots? How many teapots do you need?
          Boss: Yes

        3. Kate*

          Yes! OMG! This has happened to me so many times with certain people that I started doing 1 question per email only. When you ask more than one it’s like they instinctively answer the least important question.

        4. Someone else*

          This is especially infuriating when doing software support.
          Does the error happen when you do A or B?
          Is there anything in the log file?
          Does it happen to all users or just one?

          Response: Just one. Is there anything else I can check to help you figure this out?

          Yes, the other two things I already asked about.

    10. is this day over yet?*

      My one coworker thought it would be cool to basically word vomit to me about every. single. issue. in her life (which really just amounted to, “Oh gosh I’m so in love with my boyfriend but I don’t know if we’re boyfriend-girlfriend, but gosh it’s so awful!”) and then told me that she thought all of my friends were awful people after I invited her out with us one night and she proceeded to explicitly tell me that she has, “so many amazing people in my life that I already don’t make the time for, so I sure as hell don’t want to spend it with people I don’t like.”

      Honestly, I had let a lot of her comments go and considered her pretty okay and have been pretty nice about it all even when her chatter distracts me from work, but that last part was the absolute last straw. I don’t mind if you don’t like my friends – not everyone in the world is going to get along with each other – but the attitude really wasn’t necessary. A simple, “they’re just not my type of people,” would have sufficed.

      1. Specialk9*

        I could let it slide that she was annoying, but to be my guest and insult my people? Oh no. Oh hell no. You can go sit on an icicle.

    11. MAB*

      I work in a shared office space. My counter part who is new to the manager title and all the weird social expectations that come with it, is loud, mildly inappropriate regarding professionalism and I know at least one employee that sits next to her has told me they have issues getting things done when she is in. The hardest part about it is she does do good work but since our manager isn’t in the room he doesn’t see the shit that goes down.

      I wear headphones a lot and ignore the bumping party most of the time.

    12. Kiki*

      Everyone on my team is an over-sharer. I know intimate details about a spouse’s alcohol addiction, the failing health of a parent, money squabbles between a co-worker and their siblings…all they know about me is that I’m married with two cats. I like to keep it that way.

      1. Aurora Leigh*

        Same! Except my boss is the worst of the lot. Did NOT need to know that it’s been 3 years since she’s had sex . . . . or that she reads her 18 year old daughters texts and is convinced the kid is having sex.

    13. Bad Candidate*

      The person training me has no documentation other than her notes, which mean nothing except to her. It would be like leaving yourself a note to buy Chocolate Teapots. You know that you want a dark chocolate, non-GMO, organic teapot, and the brand that they sell at Trader Joe’s. But if you told someone else to buy Chocolate Teapots and didn’t give them all those specificities, you couldn’t be mad that they went and bought a milk chocolate Hershey teapot from Walgreens, could you? Well she does. It’s infuriating. Especially since verbally she’ll say something like “Always get milk chocolate teapots” and when there’s an exception I don’t know about, it’s my fault for not knowing that she didn’t really mean always.

      1. Amy*

        OMG Yes, I work with her currently. “Why did you do X instead of Y?” Because you never mentioned Y once. So I do Y next time. And I get “why didn’t you do G?” Are you kidding me?

        1. Bad Candidate*

          Do you also get the “Well if you weren’t sure, you should have asked”? Um, I am sure you told me to do it this way. And of course if I do ask I get “Why in the world would you do it like that?” Because reason and logic do not apply to anything else I do, why would this be the exception!

        2. Mallory Janis Ian*

          Ugh, I worked for a boss like that for a very short time before I ran screaming back to the university. She never knew what she wanted, and we (her employees) were supposed to figure it out. But also, what she wanted was a moving target, so if we ever figured out what she wanted, we also had to intuit that her desires had changed at some point between starting and delivering the project. We could hand her exactly what she had asked for earlier that day, and she would be screaming about how could we not know that she didn’t want that.

      2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Um – did you take my job after I left??? B/c that’s exactly how the person who trained me in my last job was. She was the sole reason I left. When I think about her “training style” and this is the best analogy I can come up with:

        Imagine that you’ve never brushed your teeth before and you’ve never seen someone brush their teethbefore. You’ve never seen a toothbrush or toothpaster or anything. This is how she would teach you to brush your teeth: To brush your teeth you put the toothbrush in your mouth and rub it around. Brushing your teeth is really important for (insert list of reasons) and there’s other stuff you do to take care of your teeth like flossing – that’s when you rub a string between your teeth – and using mouthwash and there’s even these links between flossing and having lower cholesterol, but nobody knows why for sure, but that’s why taking care of your teeth is so important (but this tangent will go on for awhile). Oh – and the first step is picking up the toothbrush and then you rinse your mouth at the end.

        But then it’s totally your fault for not knowing what toothpaste is, where it’s kept, or that’s it’s part of the process at all. Also – you are now fully trained on all aspects of oral health and if there’s stuff you’re unsure about it’s because you don’t have the required comprehension skills and/or are lazy untrainable bum.

        1. Bad Candidate*

          Can’t be, she never gives the reasons why anything is important or unimportant. And some in some instances the brand of toothpaste is VERY IMPORTANT and others it’s of no consequence. If I ask why it is in once case and not in another, she sort of waves off the question and doesn’t answer. I’ve been here four months, I’m already looking for something else.

          1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            Oh my person would only touch on the “why” of very random, and what I came to understand, not actually important things. When it came to things that were actually relevant to the job, if I asked why something was the way it was, it was considered a direct insult to her or her intelligence (I was obviously implying that she was doing it wrong all along – really I was trying to understand what I was doing!)

            Ugh… I lasted less than a year. My replacement lasted less than a year. They’re on the second replacement now. I’m morbidly curious to find out how long the second replacement will last and if someone higher up will pick up on this pattern (at the time the trainer was a golden child, could not do wrong, walked on water)

        2. JD*

          Ugh my boss does this. I am about 100x more computer savvy than he is yet he will say “Hey sent Monica an email.” Me: “OK no problem”. Him: “So go to start, open Outlook, click new email…” OMFG!! I want to strangle him every time. I told him once “Are you under the impression I don’t know how to use email”? The reality is that it is how his mind works and how he processes thing but frankly I don’t care, it is demeaning and mind blowingly irritating. Plus it wastes soooo much time. He also MUST reiterate what he says three times at least per conversation. So telling me how to send an email is repeated in three different ways.

          1. Bad Candidate*

            OMG yes, she does that too. Complicated work related things that I have zero experience in get a quick brush over. But how to save a document in Word? Painstaking detail.

    14. Grits McGee*

      I have a coworker that stages overly-complicated and specific potluck competitions at least once a month, and then asks everyone at least once a day what they’re making. I’ve developed whatever the opposite of the Pavlov effect is, in response to people mentioning the words cookie and classic.

    15. Amy*

      Clicky McPenclicker. All day every day and in meetings too. I’m going to stab her with it one day.

      Also, condescending to fellow women, but talks little girl talk to men. At least I don’t have to deal with her all day.

      1. Jesca*

        OMG to your second topic, I have so many of these women in my already male dominated and heavily misogynistic work place. And I just want to grab them and shake them and tell them to stop making it so hard for the rest of us who actually want to move up in the company!

      2. crookedfinger*

        Ugh, I hate the “little girl talk” to men thing. One of my coworkers does that, and her “little girl persona” is also a major ditz who is super gullible. She’s not dumb or even particularly gullible, she just thinks this persona is endearing or something. I don’t know. I like her when she’s being normal, it’s simply an annoying quirk I guess? So weird.

        1. JD*

          I’ve never had anyone offended by asking them to stop clicking their pens. Some thing are difficult to bring up but the offenders know that a.) they don’t realize they are doing it and b.) it is an all around annoying habit. I often ask my boss to stop and he just says “oh sorry”.

    16. Jadelyn*

      The coworker across the hall from me listens to her music, which is always the twangiest country music you can possibly imagine, super loud. Asking her to turn it down gets it turned down by about half a degree for about ten minutes, then it goes right back up. I’ve given up and just keep my office door closed most of the time now, and play my own Pandora stations on my computer when her music leaks through the closed door anyway.

      1. Specialk9*

        I don’t understand why you haven’t started loudly listening to thrash metal (with ear plugs in if necessary).

    17. anon this time*

      I have a coworker who:
      -Does virtually no work
      -Comes and goes out of the office at odd hours without informing anyone
      -Tells clients that parts of her job are my job
      -When she does accomplish something, tells everyone in the office individually about it
      -Chooses not to learn any parts of her job that she isn’t interested in
      -When anyone needs any information from her, stalls them out for weeks because she doesn’t know
      -Brings her small, poorly behaved children into the office and allows them to run amok, often breaking things and hurting others
      -Leaves piles of dirty dishes all over every surface in the breakroom
      -Snoops into private email and uses the contents for blackmail
      -Gets paid a ridiculous salary
      -Sucks up to the boss big-time and is one of her favorite employees

      This is not an exhaustive list.

    18. Applesauced*

      We just shifted desks around, and I went from back-to-the wall in a quiet corner to back-to-back next to a busy aisle (ugh). The guy who I’m back-to-back with is on the phone half the day, and then reads everything under his breath the rest of the time.

    19. Language Student*

      I was the weird coworker this week. Accidentally sent kisses to a coworker when he texted me (force of habit – I don’t text much, and everyone I *do* text is family or close enough to use kisses with!) and I am mortified and hoping he’s not uncomfortable/going to hit on me next time I see him.

      1. Anion*

        Next time you see him, just laugh and apologize. “By the way, sorry about those kisses I texted you–force of habit.” It’s highly unlikely he’s never done something similar.

      2. JD*

        One time out of habit I said to a client “ok thank you, love you bye.” I just paused, he paused and we cracked up. He said “habit huh” and I explained prior to him i had been talking to my boyfriend.

    20. Crylo Ren*

      At my current employer the woman who sits in the cube kitty-corner from me has a laugh that sounds like a donkey with bronchitis. The funny thing is though, she has a perfectly pleasant and normal speaking voice, which makes her laugh even more jarring. I jump out of my skin every time.

      At my last employer the person who sat right next to me was a scream sneezer.

      1. crookedfinger*

        I used to have a co-worker who everyone referred to as “the Rooster” because her laugh sounded like one. You could always tell she was in the office, at least.

      2. Lora*

        I think I went to undergrad with this person. At one point our genetics professor told her she should try to control it as it was super-annoying and she got really, really mad because she honestly couldn’t help it. She was totally incapable of a quiet chuckle, it was a smile or all-out crying with laughter. She was a really sweet person though.

      3. MeM*

        I was at a family dinner and kept hearing what I thought was a piece of faulty machinery grinding – like a gear was caught. Turns out it was my new SIL chuckling.

    21. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      I have a reply-aller. Luckily she isn’t in my department, so I don’t have to deal with it all the time, but I dread division wide emails. And the things she says in her reply-alls are inane too! Just stuff like “thanks for the info!” A) you didn’t need to send that email at all and B) you definitely didn’t need to send it to all 70 people in our division.

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Oh, and I also have an incessant question asker! I almost forgot about her but she just popped her head into my office. She does great work when she’s out in the field, but when she gets back to the office, it’s just a constant stream of “How was your week? Who made the schedule? How does this process work? Where do I find X? What is Y? Why was Z written on this form?” Which might seem like valid work questions except that she either doesn’t need to know the answers to those to do her job or she should definitely already know the answer.

      2. Monsters Of Men*

        We had one of those when I worked in municipal government, and we accidentally had a chain going for about 6,000 employees regarding a golfing weekend (yep.)

        The city manager’s assistant sent out a cease and desist email.

        My coworker thought someone was taking a shot and sent back, reply all, “Cease and desist? What nonsense is this. Stop replying.”

        She was mortified to learn it came from the top of the top. Hilarious.

        Then two weeks later, someone resurrected it as a joke, and the union had to be called in about it. Ah, good times.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          Ha. Not anything near as splendid an example as yours, but we had a 300-person email in our college for people to offer freebies or items for sale, ask to borrow a ream of green copy paper, etc. Sometimes people would get snippy about others replying to all once they’d entered the into a transaction with one individual, and they’d send a “Stop replying to all” email. Then someone else would send a snarky, “Stop replying to all to say ‘Stop replying to all'”, and it would get out of hand from there.

      3. copy run start*

        I used to work in an office with several reply-allers! Every time there was a mass email you’d have 5 – 6 reply alls from them alone. Ignore Conversation quickly became my favorite Outlook feature. :)

    22. Professional Cat Herder*

      I just found out yesterday that not only did a former coworker I hated actively prevent me from doing parts of my job, she also made fun of my physical appearance to her direct reports, who I have a very good relationship with.

      So happy she got fired.

    23. crookedfinger*

      One of my coworkers on the next cube over is an older guy in his 70s who loves to talk on the phone. He calls his mom and/or wife every day and at loud volume asks about their health problems, talks about his own health problems (like, I know way more about this dude’s urinary health than I ever should…). He’s one of those people who acts like he’s afraid of people stealing his money, yet loudly reads out his credit card number/SSN/birthdate over the phone so our whole side of the office can hear it. He also spends ridiculous amounts of time arguing over small fees to his card – he once spent over an hour with some poor CSR trying to get them to reverse a $5 charge! And this guy is wealthy!

      Which brings me to an amusing conversation we had after Halloween… he was talking with his assistant and me about the hundreds of trick-or-treaters he got at his house and she was lamenting only getting a couple. I mentioned that people in this city would drive their kids to the rich suburbs for trick-or-treating because they got better candy that way.

      Him: Well I’m not in a rich neighborhood…
      Me: Where do you live?
      Him: [richest suburb city in the area]
      Me: …You’re in a rich neighborhood.
      Him: Now just wait a minute.
      Assistant: Didn’t you tell me your house is worth over a million dollars?
      Him: Well yes, but I bought it for $200,000 twenty years ago…

    24. Master Bean Counter*

      I have sportsball guy. He’s a rabid fan of all things sports. But that’s not the annoying part. His ring tone, and yes the fact that I know what his ring is in itself annoying, is the fight song for his college team. He also likes to sing along, badly, to the fight song. I get treated to this at least once a day.

      3. nonegiven*

        I started calling it sportsball. I can’t keep track of what sportsball season it is, anyway. My husband isn’t into sportsball, either.

        1. Specialk9*

          Love it. I’m totally into playing sportsball, and even sportspuck and such, but could. Not. Care. Less. About watching grown stranger men playing sportsball.

    25. HigherEd on Toast*

      I have a colleague who will not shut up about how busy she is- even though most of us are equally busy (we all teach the same number of classes, have almost the same number of students, have the same number of mandatory meetings, etc.), we somehow manage to find the time to do things like reply to e-mails within 24 hours and meet deadlines. Not her! The response to an e-mail is often a single word “Busy!” that feels really curt, and she spends more time complaining because someone has asked her to submit a form that’s late than it would take to fill out the form. Also, since her office is right next to mine, I can hear how much time she spends on personal phone calls and conversations with students that don’t address school issues but are about her/their personal lives. It’s like, okay, you can spend literally an hour talking (in a loud voice) about your mental health issues but you can’t send me a one-sentence e-mail that would answer the question I had? (I have tried talking to her in person, but it usually evolves into at least a 10- or 15-minute conversation about how busy she is, and how sad she is, and how hard it is to be as awesome as she forces herself to be).

      It really is a lesson in that the person who’s always rushing around and screaming about how busy they are usually isn’t the most productive person.

    26. Lissa*

      I once supervised somebody who would get angrily defensive when you asked her to do a task, and say something like “I was just *getting* to that!” Basically always had this attitude that I was nagging her or being unreasonable. Also, any time she asked a question it would go like this Her: Is Sara working today? Me: No, she’s off until Friday. Her: I was *just asking*. Me: And I was just telling you…

      It was super weird and made me paranoid about my tone and interactions in general…

    27. Aunt Jemima*

      My supervisor is a TOTAL over-sharer. Her most common topics of conversation are:

      1.) Her 5 1/2 year old’s ongoing issue with having still having potty accidents every day. The verbiage she uses ranges from “she doesn’t totally wet herself, she just has leaks” to “I did some research and think that some of her (names several private women’s parts) are physically tilted, incorrectly placed, etc. causing her to still have accidents at her age.”
      2.) She tells me EVERY SINGLE DETAIL when she has a sick child. The last conversation she told me “Jane was pooping her brains out last night…no, actually she was DIARRHEAING her brains out. It just kept exploding and making a mess every time I’d just given her a fresh pair of undies. I had to keep cleaning her tush up for her because she was too embarrassed.”

      She says all of this at full volume in a small office, btw!

    28. Ange*

      The coworker who can’t take instructions or advice even when she’s asked for it. Even if she knows nothing about the topic, she’ll argue with you that you’re doing it wrong or just ignore what you’re trying to tell her.

    29. emalia*

      At my last job, I had an oversharer and over talker. And even when I had my back toward him, told him I had a deadline, and was clearly working, he’d keep talking. If he didn’t get a hello when he came into the office (cubicles around the outside of the room, open in the middle) because I was in the middle of something, he’d keep saying hello and looking at me.
      He’d also text me on my personal cell phone when I was working from home even though I clearly was on email.
      EVERYTHING was political. Since our organization had a social-justice component, he’d find a way to work in his opinions and outside activist work into EVERY conversation. He had a way of stating his opinion so that if you disagreed, you were some sort of -ist.
      Even though I shut down the personal talk, I still know way more about his relationship with his (now ex-)wife than I care to.
      The most frustrating thing was that the ED and board president LOVED him.

    30. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      One of my co-workers is super negative and wears every frustration on her sleeve. She mutters, mumbles and groans loudly constantly, and at least once a month can be counted on to have a meltdown where she yells/snaps at others on our team or other teams. I do understand her frustration because she’s wholly unsuited for this job (doesn’t have the temperament, soft skill set or technical knowledge) and our management team hasn’t done her any favors by babying her for the past two years. The rest of our team is extremely competent, dynamic and positive, and she seems oblivious to the fact that she’s dragging morale down.

      1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        I have a co-worker that is so loud you can hear her from one end of the office to the other. She also gets upset easily and slams doors all the time. That scares the crap out of me and really disrupts my focus.

    31. Beancounter Eric*

      The people who like to hang out in the open area near my office and chat…sometimes work, mostly not.

      The people who like to drop in my office so I have to stop whatever I am working on, regardless of priority, to chat…sometimes work, mostly not.

      The people who empty the water cooler and can’t be bothered to load a new bottle…or if it’s too heavy, ask someone else to help.

    32. Hillary*

      My coworker quite obviously has bronchitis. Coughing, throat-clearing, lost his voice, the works. We’ve all been asking him to stay home for two weeks now, but he keeps showing up. It’s finally letting up, but instead of the throat-clearing he’s taken to listening to Christmas music without headphones. I’m not sure which noise is more annoying…

      1. Argh!*

        I’ve had coworkers with chronic coughs that are *not* related to a virus! Years and years and years of enduring that sound constantly. One just would *not* go to a doctor and claimed it wasn’t a problem. But it was a problem for everyone around her!

        1. that broadway nerd*

          I’ll chime in here to say that I cough VERY often, because I have a respiratory disorder (cystic fibrosis). I know that it must be insanely annoying for my coworkers, but it’s truly something I can’t help (and often don’t notice because I’m so used to it). If I feel a really major coughing attack coming on, I’ll go to the bathroom, but most of the times it’s just intermittent coughs. I’m pretty open about it, though, so most of my coworkers are aware that there’s a reason and I’m not just constantly sick. So it’s possible that your coworkers may be dealing with something similar. Or maybe they’re just oblivious.

      2. Liz*

        If I get a cough with my cold, it tends to sit with me for weeks. Going to the doctor will result in a co-pay but nothing useful other than advice to take it easy, and use OTC medication when needed. I keep my hands clean, cough into an elbow, and work from home sometimes, but most days I just have to be in the office. I know it’s annoying – it annoys me too – but I don’t believe it’s contagious. Just annoying,

    33. Mallory Janis Ian*

      For a while, I was the sole occupant of an office that was meant for two people. They finally assigned another person to the empty desk and he moved in.

      Then I noticed that my under-desk trash can was gone, and when I looked for it, I found it under his desk. I took it back, but instead of putting it under my desk, I put it between our desks so we could share it, since apparently there was only one for the office. Every time I would leave the office and come back, I would notice that he had taken the trash can from the shared area and placed it beneath his own desk. I kept taking it back and putting it in the shared area.

      Then he finally asked me if we were having a problem over the trash can! As if it were meant to be his, and I kept taking it! I was trying to share it, and he was trying to make it exclusively his, and it was mine to begin with!

      1. clow*

        Wow, I think I might just dump my trash under his desk, even when he is sitting there, since he loves the trashcan so much.

    34. bridget*

      I generally think that people who get annoyed with traditionally feminine-coded behaviors like uptalk, vocal fry, sitting on a foot, wearing a lot of makeup, etc. are being at best mildly sexist.

      But now I have a new junior colleague who seems like she is trying her damnedest to put out a Barbie Princess/Legally Blonde vibe. She hits EVERY stereotype with exceeding gusto, combining it with fairly childish behaviors and somewhat immature comments, and she’s driving me batty. I didn’t feel like having to introspectively examine my unconscious biases this week, but apparently that’s going to happen.

          1. Footiepjs*

            I don’t know if links to random images get caught in moderation, but google “sitting with one foot tucked under” shows what is meant. Look for people sitting on a chair.

          2. Turquoisecow*

            Sitting on a foot is annoying to others? I’ve done this on occasion, didn’t realize anyone else cared. Or noticed.

            1. bridget*

              In my fairly formal work environment, I have heard people comment on it looking childish or informal. I think there is a bit in Nice Girls Don’t Get The Corner Office about not doing it. Like I prefaced, I think that this alone is a very silly and often gendered complaint for people to have, and I sit on my foot with abandon. Not great for my knees, but whatever. (This coworker also generally has her tongue sticking out while concentrating, which I also read as childish and informal).

              Really, my coworker is irking me because she seems to be aggressively pursuing the vapid/ditzy persona, and I can’t tell if it’s because she’s actually vapid and ditzy or if I’m being judgmental and misogynist.

              2. Elizabeth H.*

                Is it an especially female thing? I agree it’s kind of informal but I too continue to sit on my foot with abandon! Yay! It’s so much more comfortable. I occasionally sit in half lotus (which is my favorite and absolutely most comfortable position to sit in in a chair) but only when nobody can see me.

                1. bridget*

                  I’ve really only noticed women or children do it, but I think that’s probably partially explained by the fact that men tend to be less flexible. My husband can barely sit in a cross-legged position. I do think women get criticized more for tucking themselves up in chairs in various positions.

                  I have my office door closed right now, and my knees are tucked up under my chin cannon-ball style. Guessing my male colleagues don’t do that?

                2. Lison*

                  My male grand boss does this so I never thought of it as being gendered but he is short so I thought it was making himself taller sitting, which is not why I as a taller person does it, it’s just how I sit. So it turns out I am making sexist assumptions and I’ve only realized that right now.

              3. Nines*

                I sit like this all the time! And it never occurred to me that it might annoy people… but I can see it looking a bit childish… oh well! I am usually doing it because my legs are too short to reach the ground on “normal” chairs. I also take off my shoes at work all the time at my desk. Though I try not to do it when others are in my office…

        2. Footiepjs*

          This is best googled because there are articles out there with sound clips to hear what those vocal quirks sound like. I think I’ve seen articles posted on NPR or similar.

          1. Specialk9*

            I have make co-workers who do vocal fry, bad, and it always makes me argue with the world (inside my head, hopefully without weird facial contortions) about how only women are judged for vocal fry and nobody gives a darn when men do it. So obviously I give a darn, but mostly for the point of it. Again, all inside my head.

      2. Chaordic One*

        The thing that annoys me with uptalk is, that when you’re in a mixed group, men seem to respond to it by “mansplaining.” And when that happens my darker self thinks, “Well, you asked for it.”

      3. JD*

        Sitting on a foot annoys people? I am not sure I can stop this habit. Plus I was run over a long time ago so I cannot sit normally I must constantly sit in different positions or the pain becomes unbearable.

      4. ST*

        Vocal fry is pretty common in radio for men – I know that for certain things I use it (though I didn’t know that’s what it is called).

    35. AshK434*

      My coworkers low-key don’t like me bc I’m quiet. Whenever they arrive in the morning, they say hello to everyone but me by name. For example “Hi Jeff!” Or ” ‘Morning Mike” and just walk right by me. Or when multiple ppl take off on Friday, one particular coworker will complain that the day will go slowly because no one is here & acts like I don’t exist. I swear I’m a nice person

        1. Trillian*

          I don’t understand this. You can be outgoing and not be friendly. One does not equate the other. True, quiet does not equate nice either, but there are plenty of outgoing people out there open-minded enough to understand that introverts can be nice people too. Otherwise, you’re making outgoing people sound kind of ignorant and judgemental. Like they are saying, “oh that person didn’t greet me enthusiastically, what a snob.”

      2. Specialk9*

        Uh that’s not low key not liking you, that’s really aggressive and rude. Systematically excluding you and giving you the silent treatment is bullying. Does your manager know they did this?

    36. Elizabeth West*

      This is more a personal beef than a general one, but a coworker at one job would constantly complain about her husband. I mean, constantly. He did this wrong, that wrong, didn’t do this when she wanted this, etc. It really pissed me off. I know when people have been together for a long time that they irritate each other more than during the honeymoon period, but come on. It’s just so disrespectful to your partner to complain about them behind their back to anyone who will listen. I’ve worked in whole offices like this–it seems to be a sport or something. :P

      Plus, it frustrated me to hear it because some of us don’t have anyone to go home to, and her taking it for granted made me feel bad. It was like listening to somebody humblebitch about the broken strap on their Louboutin shoes.

      1. KAG*

        I would interpret it as a humble*brag*: not only do i own expensive shoes, but since they have a broken strap, I have an excuse to wear comfy shoes instead!

    37. Annoyed Admin*

      One of my coworkers yesterday tried to tell me he didn’t know how to run credit cards on our new machine, even though I personally trained him on it. Then said, well, the instructions should be posted by the machine – so I pointed to them, posted right by the machine. Then he said, well you should have told us all of that! And I pointed to the email I sent to all staff, with the instructions attached. I almost kicked him in the shin.

    38. Wendy City*

      There’s the women in my department who sound, no joke, like Tammy and Jocelyn from Bob’s Burgers. There’s the woman directly across from me who only takes calls on speaker phone and never shuts her office door.

      But the be-all-to-end-all is a coworker I have lovingly dubbed Frank Burns due to his resemblance to the character of the same name. A shriveling suck-up with no backbone, who dishes out criticisms with little regard for kindness but becomes incensed and upset when any slight or correction comes his way. He also does things like, when giving me a project that involves designing teapots that go in the front window and will be seen by others, make sure to “jokingly” tell me not to carve curse words into the teapots or leave some kind of glaring error in the spout.

      Thanks, dude, I wasn’t planning on it.

    39. LAI*

      The most highly paid guy in my office is also the most useless. He sidetracks every. single. conversation into theoretical debates about the way things should be in an ideal world, which is not relevant to the way they actually are.

      Me: What should we do about this broken teapot?
      Him: Well, elementary school teachers really need to be teaching kids how to handle teapots more carefully so that they grow up with those skills.
      Me: Right, but THIS teapot is broken right now.
      Him: Yes, and that’s why education is so important. Let’s talk about how we can change societal culture toward teapots…

      1. Hellanon*

        I’ve stopped listening to anybody whose answer to any kind of issue involves a practical “should” going anywhere but forward or a theoretical “should” of any kind. “Well, they should teach kids…” – I don’t care what part 2 is, I’m not interested.

    40. clow*

      I have one who talks down to all the women on the team, but has the least amount of experience (as in…none, this is his first job in the industry). He also is extremely entitled. We have trick or treating on halloween, where employees bring their kids in to go around the office and trick or treat with us at our cubes. I set out candy in a box at my desk and this guy, without asking, grabbed some. I told him that I was planning on sharing out any leftover candy with everyone but that right now, these are for the kids and i want to make sure there is enough. He got really angry and asked me if I was serious, I said “yes, I want to make sure I have enough for the kids and then I will share with everyone” he got annoyed and dumped the candy back in, leaving in a huff. He then complained to my other coworker that I didn’t share my candy with him. Oh and he cuts in line when we get catered food, all the time.

    42. ab*

      The guy I share my office with talks to himself constantly – like he’ll suddenly just start commenting and it’s so abrupt it still startles me even though he started over a month ago! And the weirdest part is that even with that habit, if he wants to say anything to me he’ll send it via our messaging system. I literally sit four feet away from him. He’s a nice guy but I can’t get over the weird habits with communicating!

    43. Jillociraptor*

      I have the Constant Grouser! All day, every day, outbursts to no one, “This makes no sense!” “Why do these guys do it like this?” “This is crazy!”

      Of course, if he took three seconds to read one thread down in the email, or literally ever showed up to the relevant meetings, it would all make perfect sense! (For context: The most recent “This makes no sense!” was for a project he repeatedly refused to go to trainings/info sessions on. The most recent “Why do these guys do it like this?” was for needing a supervisor signature to make a major purchase.)

    44. Sabrina Spellman*

      I have a coworker who works part-time in the office next to me. We could be successfully closed off in our individual offices, but the in-between door is always open so she can ask me questions if she runs into something unfamiliar. This means I get to hear every personal phone call she makes to her boyfriend/brother/mother/sister/aide for her daughter. It’s endless! I’m not sure how she gets anything done.

      I have another coworker, who is older, who ducks out so often for long bathroom breaks or coffeeshop runs.

    45. Jersey's mom*

      In cubicle land, I sit next to the King of Farts. He has worked in this kingdom for over 35 years. He farts all day, every day. So loud, that someone I was speaking to on the phone heard one. So stinky, that people in the corridor make slight gagging sounds. When I started spraying little spritzes of Glade into the air, he asked me to please stop, as the smell bothered him.

      The co-worker on the other side of his cube and I (both female) finally spoke to his boss (a very nice guy) about it. Boss did so, and said that the King had no idea he had been farting up a storm every day.

      The King now goes to his throne a few times a day, and the farting has cut way down.

    46. Marillenbaum*

      Old job had a coworker with some sort of post-nasal drip that he would continually attempt to clear with what I can only describe as a vehement horking noise. It was DISGUSTING and he sat right in front of me. Add in his mediocre work product, whining about not getting the good assignments (even though his work didn’t merit it), and playing Maroon 5 WITHOUT HEADPHONES, I was so glad when he gave notice, even though it was over Christmas and right before our busiest time of the year. (EPILOGUE: Ostensibly, he quit to go to grad school out of state, which is weird because he never mentioned applying, even to his best work friend in an office where leaving to get a degree wasn’t weird. We soon found out he was still in town, and dating an undergrad at our institution–a BIG honking Title IX violation. Considering he’d also failed to complete an important assignment for our boss before he went on extensive PTO, I’m pretty sure he quit before being fired. Even our admins–the nicest ladies on the planet–could speak no good of him after he left.)

    47. Coalea*

      I have several, but I think the worst of the worst is a guy I think of as “Goofus” (of Goofus & Gallant fame). Despite being in the same position for 10 years, he still doesn’t seem to grasp the basics of his role, the industry, or life in general. He seems incapable of taking any action without repeated prompting from our boss.
      Boss: Where are you on the poster for the European Society of Llama Herders? We are coming up on the print deadline.
      Goofus: I’m waiting for client feedback.
      Boss: When is the feedback due?
      Goofus: Two weeks ago.
      Boss: And no response to any reminders?
      Goofus: *blank stare*
      Boss: Have you sent them reminders that the feedback is overdue?
      Goofus: Oh … no … Should I do that?
      Boss: *screams internally*

      1. kas*

        Oh that annoys me! I have a coworker that does that sometimes. She’s really nice but also seems incapable of taking action. If I ask someone for info that I need to finish a project and they don’t get back to me, I have no problem being annoying and sending several follow-up emails. Whereas my coworker will send one and if she doesn’t hear back, she asks me for help. If I work in teapot sourcing, I can’t give her info on teapot reporting, I don’t have access to whatever info she needs.

    48. Ms. Mad Scientist*

      I got a little snippy with one of my coworkers today. He has a habit of trying to tell me to do things that I already know how to do and I’ve told him so. Today’s convo: I was trying to look up something I’d purchased a couple months ago in our order system:

      “You know you can also do [X]”
      “Yeah, I tried that already but didn’t find it”
      “Just go to..”
      “Yes, I tried that, it didn’t work.”

      I shouldn’t have been snippy, but he should listen to me.

    49. kas*

      1. The coworker that talks about her child non-stop. Every conversation ends with her adding something in about her daughter. “Oh you know what she did yesterday?” “Omg guess what word she’s been saying!” “Look at these pictures of her at school.” I can’t take it anymore.

      2. A senior manager who can never be serious. He’s always joking around but I don’t find his jokes funny. Every interaction with him has to include a joke so I try to avoid conversations with him.

    50. Mike S*

      Many years ago, I worked with a guy we’ll call Andy (because that was his name) in IT. Andy was in his late 20s and a bodybuilder. We had also recently hired a late middle aged guy (we’ll call him Fergus, because he didn’t leave much of an impression) as the network administrator. He was the opposite of a bodybuilder. One day as Andy’s riding the elevator to work, one of the CAD operators told him that a bunch of them are mad at him, because a new hire can’t run an app that Andy wrote. Andy found out who it is, and since he had administrator permissions, looked up the employee, saw that their account wasn’t set up correctly, fixed it, and verified that everything is working correctly.
      Then he went to go see Fergus, and lit into him for 1) not setting up the account correctly and 2) not telling anyone when a new user had problems, and letting him take the fall. Fergus’ response was “do you want to step outside and settle this?” Instead, Andy came and told us, with an incredulous look on his face.
      Soon afterwards, Andy left to take a position at another company that he was really excited about. Fergus also ended up pursuing other employment opportunities.

    51. Bibliovore*

      Just this week, I was mansplained by a colleague about progressive education, literacy research, and I kid you not the role of the school librarian. Yes, dear readers, I have been in the field for over twenty five years. It took all my self-control not to just shut him down. We were in a group and I just kept changing the subject.

    52. NewBoss2016*

      I have a co-worker who tries to do the least amount of work possible to get by. Somehow everything that requires the slightest amount of research or follow-up is all of the sudden not her department. She usually foists these things off on our other coworker (in another department) who is an extremely hard worker and very conflict-adverse. I have been seeing nice coworker slowly building up rage for the last few months. It finally came to a head outside my office door this morning, complete with nice coworker slamming a file on a desk, them jerking a piece of paper back and forth, and a glorious dressing down of the work-adverse coworker. Super awkward.

    53. anycat*

      does a manager count? they blatantly ignore me, will go out of their way to not talk to me/include me in things, and will even ignore me in the restroom/hallway if i ask her how they are doing.

    54. Coldbrewinacup*

      People who, when there’s an office potluck, bring in plastic dinnerware or a 2 liter of soda, while others are making cakes from scratch… along those lines, those who NEVER bring anything to the potluck but are going back for seconds and thirds!

      Loud talkers, yes! But what about loud sneezers and loud nose blowers?! Someone in a cube across from me sneezes at the top of her lungs every. time. AAA-CHOOO!! Followed by foghorn nose blowing. Ugh!

      People who don’t wash their hands after using the bathroom and then touch food.

      The office know-it-all who thinks she has to babysit everyone. She even makes signs (!!!) that she posts everywhere– “Make sure you close the fridge door!” and “be sure to close the Keurig so the water is ready for the next person!” Stuff like that all over the office. I am waiting for the sign in the bathroom telling me how many squares of TP I can use.

      The office griped/grouch. Ugh. Thoroughly unpleasant man. Makes other people get sodas for him. Ugh

      Sexist comments from my boss, who likes to scare people by jumping out from the side wall of your cube. *eyeroll*

      Thanks for letting me vent. :-)

      1. Old Cynic*

        Heh. I worked once with a woman who was The Organizer.

        She assigned baking birthday cakes to each member of the staff. All in all, she did a fair job on that one, but…

        For potlucks, she assigned dishes. “You bring lasagna!”, “You bring spanakopita!”, “You bring lumpia!” Her contribution? A can of vegetables to heat up. Usually her favorite, corn.

    55. Tabby Baltimore*

      When I was reading this, this morning, I couldn’t post, but so, so wanted to write about the middle-aged guy in the next set of cubes over from me who just loves his speaker phone capability so tremendously that he has multiple phone convos per day with it, and doesn’t lower the volume. I was away from the office for a while, doing another job, and have been back for a month. I don’t remember him being like this when I left, but he’s retiring early next year, so I figure I can live with it for a few more months, then I’ll never have to hear it again. (The other people he works with don’t do this, thankfully.)

      I worked as a reference librarian in a large public library system in the Southwest decades ago, and one of the paraprofessionals who also “worked the desk” drove me completely nuts. Answering patron questions often included telling them which section of the collection they could find the answer in, so I’d actually get up from my seat at the desk and walk them into the stacks and show them where the subject-area books were that they needed to look at. “M,” however, would give minimal answers, then take great pains to point and explain in excruciating directional detail about where to find the material, remaining firmly planted in her chair. Not long after starting to work there, I figured out when scheduled with her on the desk to expect her patrons to boomerang back to me because they couldn’t find what they were looking for, so basically doubling my workload. After two years of this, I finally said something at the end of my performance review. My boss replied, “yes, I’ve heard that from other staff in the past, but you never said anything about it, so I thought it didn’t bother you.” Boss must’ve said something to her, because within a week, “M’s” performance had improved dramatically, and I was kicking myself for not having said anything earlier.

    56. Anon For Days*

      Haha! Just wrote about mine – junior who thinks she owns the place. My favourite trick of hers is when she comes in, half an hour late, on a Friday, then breezes out to go get lunch, then sits there for 15 minutes casually eating lunch. “Hey, can you serve this customer?” “Um, I’m eating?”

      Complained to higher ups, manager was like “oh look it isn’t hurting anyone”

      It is hurting my sanity.

    57. copy run start*

      Two coworkers who like to talk to each over over the cubes and across the office frequently about non-work topics (usually whatever sensationalized news story one of them has stumbled across while Blatantly Not Working), typically politics. While my politics are totally not their politics, I’d prefer we just didn’t discuss it at all in the office and that seems to be how almost everyone else feels, but they’re the type who turn to teasing you if you bring up an issue. Management isn’t around enough to notice/deal with it. One of my coworkers has to wear earplugs; I recently bought noise-canceling headphones.

      The only thing that keeps me from screaming is the fact that they’re not on my team and I never really have to engage with them. But that’s also what kills me about the whole thing — why do I have to suffer their presence when our jobs are totally unrelated (and they thrive on noise and my team thrives on silence)?? I can think of two or three other teams who we interact with more and we would benefit more from having in our area.

    58. KJ*

      I have incapable of being on time guy. Every day he is 5 – 20 minutes late and every day he shares the reason why with our entire team via email. He’s had more issues with public transportation than anyone I’ve ever met, his fridge breaks with alarming regularity, he’s constantly plagued by long lines at Dunkin Donuts, etc etc

      The best part is, nothing about our jobs requires us to be sitting at our desks at exactly 9am, and coming in 15ish minutes late usually wouldn’t go noticed by most of the team if he didn’t feel the need to give us the play by play of his commute.

    59. It's-a-me*

      My annoying coworkers aren’t half as bad as most of the replies you’ve got so far, but still.

      One coworker will chew loudly with her mouth open every lunch time, also laughing out loud occasionally at the magazine she’s reading and thereby ejecting foodstuffs out of her open mouth.

      Another coworker is usually perfectly fine… unless he has soup. It will take him 15 minutes to eat it, and every. single. spoonful. will be SLUUUUURPed at full volume. First to last (so it’s not just ‘this is too hot’ slurps, it is ‘I have soup, hear my soup, this is how you soup, right???’ slurps)

    60. Worker Bee*

      I used to have any annoying coworker, but she’s gone now. :-)
      Some of the things she did:
      – Shrieked in my ear at a staff meeting.
      – Cut her nails in the office.
      – My office was right next to hers. She would yell questions at me that would have been easy for her to look up, like someone’s phone number. I refused to look things up for her.
      – She constantly told stories about her cousin from Indiana.
      – She burned fish in the microwave. Not just a little bit. The stench was incredible.
      – She would steal conversations. I would be talking to someone, and she would jump in and try to redirect the conversation to something that had nothing to do with me. She would even do this when someone was in my office talking to me, and she was in the office next door.
      – Gum cracking. Very loud gum cracking.

      She was friends with my supervisor, so she would go whine to her whenever I didn’t do something she wanted me to do. This really damaged my relationship with my supervisor, so it was more than just annoying. It was like being in kindergarten and being tattled on. One time I was out of the office and she took some office supplies from my office (we’re all responsible for ordering our own supplies. I don’t order supplies for anyone else in the office). Instead of letting me know that she borrowed them and would replace them like normal people do, my supervisor decided that now all of these supplies needed to be kept in the supply cabinet, and she told me not to keep any office supplies in my office. I rolled my eyes mentally and kept on keeping office supplies in my office, so I can do my job like an adult.

      I didn’t have to work on projects with her very often, but when I did, she would expect me to do whatever she wanted me to right away, and she wanted to sit in my office and watch me work. That was a big fat nope. You go away, I work, I show you what I did when it’s done. Also, she would read over all of her notes and point to them as she read, like I wasn’t capable of reading them myself. I can read, TYVM.

      I’m so glad she’s gone. If she came back, I’d have to quit.

    61. Hamster*

      i work retail rn lol… i mean i enjoy the people iw orked with in MY department, but my interactions with other parts of the store sometimes is a bit sour.. internally

  6. Kelley*

    How many rounds of interviews is ‘typical’ for, say, a mid-level position in the US?

    Just wondering if this is a cultural thing or if maybe I just haven’t reached a point in my career where it’s necessary. From the stories here it seems like numbers up to three(?) rounds are taken to be normal, and people talk about being ‘finalists’ for positions.

    I’ve only worked in Australia and (currently) the UK. The only applications I’ve being through that had multiple rounds were for graduate positions which require a lot of sifting given the numbers they’re dealing with, and even then, two rounds seem to be the norm (one group assessment, one individual, sometimes they take place on the same day). Every job since then has only had one interview, which usually includes a practical component / skills test. I also don’t think I’ve ever been told how many other candidates are still in the running.

    1. Bend & Snap*

      I’m mid level in the middle of interviews, and I will have interviewed with 9 people when this is done.

    2. EmilyAnn*

      I’m a mid-level professional in government. Every interview process I’ve been involved in has maxed out at 2, most of the time just one. Hiring is already a lengthy process, so I don’t think we like to drag it out more. I’ve also been hired with no interview because of personal connections.

    3. Samiratou*

      At my company it’s not unusual to have interviews with 3-4 people (or groups) for professional positions. It’s kind of ridiculous, honestly, but not unusual, IME.

    4. LizB*

      Up to three sounds typical to me. My organization does a phone interview and two rounds of in-person interviews. I’ve usually seen either that process or a phone screen plus one in-person interview.

    5. Someone else*

      From my experience, this is more likely to be dependent on the size of the organization than the industry. I’m sure it does vary a bit by industry as well, but I’ve seen the pattern trend more similarly by size. To a certain extent it’s also dependent on the culture within leadership. I’ve known places where everyone had to be interviewed by the CEO before they could receive an offer, even if it were just a 10 minute brief thing. And others where it might be one interview with the hiring manager and one interview with someone else in the department. Smaller companies might do a single interview with more people present rather than multiple interviews with different people. I think it varies too much for there to be a “typical” answer, but I would say it’s not uncommon for there to be only one interview before an offer, but it’s also not uncommon to go 3-4 rounds. There are a ton of variables.

    6. CAA*

      It kind of depends on how you count rounds.
      When I’m hiring:
      1) phone interview — 30 minutes
      2) all on the same visit: skills test; personal interview with me; group interview with peers; office tour as we walk from place to place for the interviews; maybe an HR meeting if we know we like the person a lot and HR is available — all this takes 2 to 3.5 hours, generally the longer it’s taking, the better it’s going
      3*) we call with a job offer. If the HR meeting didn’t happen yet, then it can be over the phone or the candidate can come into the office.
      So, it’s either 2 or 3 or if you count the separate meetings in round 2 then it would be 4.

      As a candidate for Senior Manager or Director roles, I’ve usually had a similar experience but the number of individual and panel interviews during the on-site visit varies. For my current position, I spoke with my manager, 2 peers individually, and a group of people who now report to me; but for a different job I had individual 30-minute sessions with 9 different people on the same day! Senior positions also often have an extra round where the candidate meets with the CEO or CTO on a separate date after the initial in-person interviews.

    7. Red Reader*

      I had two interviews to move from an individual contributor level into first-tier management in my org, one with a panel of four members of second-tier management and one with a third- or fourth-tier manager. (She left the org and there’s been some shuffling of the org chart since then, so I don’t remember what exactly her title was at the time.)

    8. Catroina*

      I interviewed for a job last spring and had nine (9!) interviews, many with multiple people. They ended up hiring internally. I had actually interviewed with the person they ended up hiring and she was lovely and smart and it absolutely made sense to hire her over me. But why did it take them nine (9!) interviews to figure that out?

      I interviewed for another job that was two phone interviews and one in-person, with three people total in those three interviews. That one I was hired for and so far it’s been fantastic.

      1. Nico M*

        Interests wanted to give the job to the internal candidate but you were so awesome it took nine attempts for them to find something the internal candidate was better at.

    9. fposte*

      Our academic staff hiring is generally two rounds, the first a phone interview and the second in person.

    10. LadyKelvin*

      I had one interview for my current job, but I’ve had at most 2 interviews, one with my hiring manager/boss one with the team of people I would be working most closely with. I too am shocked at how many interviews some people go through and I’m in the US.

    11. Natalie*

      Two to three rounds seems typical to me, depending on how involved the executive level wants to be – one phone screen and one in-person interview for sure, and then sometimes a second interview with different management folks.

    12. clow*

      The most I have had is 2, one phone and one in person. Sometimes just one. At my current company, which is huge, it is generally just 1.

    13. Lora*

      Two rounds of in person interviews and one phone screen is normal in my field (STEM), and for those in person interviews it’s with several people – usually at least four or five individual interviews, and you go to lunch with a group of peers.

    14. Optimistic Prime*

      My interview process for my current job was a written exercise, an initial Skype screen and then an all-day interview in which I talked to 6 different people. In my field, 2-3 rounds is about the norm, often with a written exercise you’re given a couple days to a week to complete.

    15. The New Wanderer*

      I’m in a STEM-related field, and the norm now seems to be two phone screens (recruiter or other early screener + hiring manager) and one long in-person interview with multiple people (both as a group and individually). My last experiences are over a decade ago (pre-Skype), but I think that was one phone call + one on-site interview per company.

    16. Five after Midnight*

      Hunting for a corporate finance middle management job now and there are [i]typically[/i] 3 rounds:
      1. Phone screening with HR lasting about 30min to: a/confirm both side have the same salary range in mind; b/make sure that the candidate has basic knowledge, experience, competency, and communication skills; and c/ensure there are no red flags. During this phase it’s all about the company identifying the best candidates, and there is rarely a chance for a candidate to ask any questions. This round is a lot more common than it was a decade ago, but it may be skipped in some companies. About a dozen candidates will get through this filter to the next round.
      2. On-site interview with a hiring manager and [i]her[/i] peers. This is your “traditional” part of the interview process where both sides get to explore the fit and ask probing questions. The length depends on the number of people you meet, but generally runs from 2 to 4 hours. On occasion, but rarely, it will be broken into multiple days – I haven’t met a company so far that wanted to waste my time like this plus it is a lot more efficient for them as well to have all interviews on a single day. The HR will likely also get involved at this point to further narrow the salary range and to discuss benefits.
      3. On-site interview with a hiring manager’s manager. If there is another (dotted) reporting line/relationship for the open role, an interview with that person as well. Generally, there would be only 2-3 candidates at this stage, and if you reached it then you are a “finalist”.
      Unlike in the UK (for the same level roles), I haven’t run into any skill tests, panel interviews, or presentations. All my interviews have been on one-to-one basis. I also never met with my “team” – i.e. the direct reports of the open role or its peers – it’s just not a thing in my line of work. In one instance, I also had a Round 1.5 which was a full phone interview with the hiring manager; the benefit of it was that only 4 candidates were invited to Round 2.

  7. lcsa99*

    Alison – I am curious on your take on an ad I saw yesterday. They are apparently doing a new show televising job interviews, and they are emphasizing that these are real candidates interviewing for real job positions.

    As a candidate I can’t imagine being ok with this. It’s added pressure to an already high pressure situation. Then again, if you do great but don’t get the job I guess it gives you a chance to get recruited for something else. Even if they are doing this as a candid camera type of situation, I personally would rather find another company to interview with.

    But from the side of the interviewer – what are the chances that these candidates are actually interested in the job and don’t just want their 5 minutes of fame? How much more difficult would it be to find out if they are just putting forth a character – essentially acting a part when this is supposed to be a serious situation? And what are the chances that they will actually use good interviewers. In this type of situation, would the typical interviewer be able to ask the real in-depth questions they should be asking? Or do you think they will just pick the horrible interviewers you get questioned about all the time so they can get better ratings?

    2. SNS*

      I saw this too! It looks like a terrible premise for the show, I can’t imagine allowing a TV show to film my interview so I’m curious what companies they’ll be following and the types of interviewees they get.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      A few years back I learned that there were TWO reality shows about celebrity aquarium installers. At that point I stopped disbelieving any given reality show premise.

      (I learned about “Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire” on Wait Wait and thought “wow, you guys got punked on that one.” Then I was at the ER on Valentine’s Day, watching the TV, and it was for real.)

        1. Accountress*

          Install for celebrities. I know one is “Tanked”, and it’s actually pretty good! A nice mix of celebrities and businesses (and even a museum!) getting custom fish tanks. It’s super cheesy and heavily scripted, but the tanks are pretty and you get to learn about different kinds of fish.

          1. Mine Own Telemachus*

            My niece loooooves that show. She loves getting to see how they come together.

            She may not be in their target demographic (who is?????) but she enjoys it.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      But from the side of the interviewer – what are the chances that these candidates are actually interested in the job and don’t just want their 5 minutes of fame?

      I mean, people have done reality shows to find spouses, so it doesn’t shock me that they’re doing reality shows to find a job.

      It may result in them finding a job or career… just not the one they’re ostensibly applying for on the show.

      1. Amadeo*

        Spouse 1: “I do random weird job you’ve never heard of part time.”
        Spouse 2: “I’m a stay at home parent.”

        “Our budget is $2.5 million.”

        1. Lora*

          I hate these programs so hard. My mother adores them and is constantly suggesting house things that would cost a couple of lottery tickets worth of winnings, and then I spend weeks to months arguing that I am not fixing things which aren’t broken, I like the color/siding of the house the way it is thanks, and the next time you open your mouth about a home improvement project that I need like I need a hole in my skull, I WILL END YOU.

        2. Parenthetically*

          House one is both too small and too far away.
          House two is phenomenally over-budget.
          House three is perfect.

          They choose house two, and plot twist: all the furniture that was in the house when they were looking at it with the realtor is still mysteriously in the house.

          1. Specialk9*

            Both friends who did House Hunters had to remove their furniture (from the places they were already living) for the “looking at potential houses” shots, then move it back in for the “omg this is perfect!!1” shot of them living in the home they’d had for awhile already. Suuuuper fake.

            They were also told by the producers ‘come up with some conflict or we’ll make something up from things you said stitched together’. It makes me hate some of the people in the show less.

        3. Optimistic Prime*

          Haaaaaaaa it’s so true though. I adore House Hunters but not because I think it’s reality – I just like looking at the homes they’re touring.

        4. nonegiven*

          Yes, then they take a look at a nice kitchen or bath with marble or granite that’s clearly been updated in the last 5 years and they say, “we’ll have to gut it.”

    7. AnonAndOn*

      I was going to post about it too and share a link, but I’m typing on my phone. It’s called “The Job Interview” and is scheduled to premiere this Wednesday the 8th on CNBC.

      I feel the same way as you regarding being interviewed on reality TV. I wouldn’t do it, but I assume that the participants have to sign a release so they’re not blindly appearing on national TV. And the employers conducting the interviews are real too.

      There were a few scenes in the preview that stood out to me – a man sweating profusely, a woman wearing shorts to her interview, and a male interviewer falling back in his chair.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        Yes, the few clips they’ve shown seem way overly dramatic and cringe-worthy. Most interview candidates are not so glaringly naive/uncoordinated/outwardly anxious.

        1. AnonAndOn*

          I wouldn’t be surprised if the less reality TV worthy footage ends up on the cutting room floor, like interviews that went on without any major hitches. They may only focus on the more out there situations.

    8. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      By televising your interviews, you’re also ruling out any candidates who want to keep their job search quiet from their current employers.

      1. Natalie*

        Most reality show episodes are airing months and months (sometimes a year or more) after the actual filming so this is probably not much of a factor.

    9. AshK434*

      There was a similar show on Freeform that followed millenials as they searched for new jobs. It was actually pretty interesting to watch.

    11. Ramona Flowers*

      We had a similar show here a few years ago and it was actually really good. Link to come in next comment.

    12. Sami*

      A reality show that’s basically one long job interview is my secret favorite TV show: Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders: Making the Team. The season just ended (it’s on CMT) but you can find it on Amazon Prime video and probably YouTube.

      It’s women going through three rounds of auditions and the eight week long training camp. I love it!

  8. CMF*

    This is only tangentially work-related but I hope that’s okay. I am starting a new job next month, which will be my first position that comes with benefits. I can choose between a PPO and HMO healthcare plan. The HMO plan will be cheaper by about $50 per month and does not have a deductible, so my spouse and I are leaning toward that one. We are in our 20s and don’t anticipate needing to see many specialists or requiring surgical procedures. Until now, we have only had catastrophic insurance. We have done some online research but I would love to get your advice on whether going with the HMO would be a sensible move here.

    1. GreyjoyGardens*

      It really depends on the quality of the HMO in your area. I used to be with a Big Well-Known California HMO and in my particular region it was great, in others not so much. So ask around, check Yelp and online reviews, etc. Though if you are healthy and in your 20’s and don’t do extreme sports or take dangerous risks, and you expect to use your benefits mostly for routine checkups and common illnesses/mishaps, an HMO might be fine for you.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        I’ve been with Probably The Same Big Well-Known California HMO for over a decade now and am quite content with it, though I do fully accept that it could be very different in a different region. I started when I was in my mid-20s and had very few health needs, but stayed with it as I went through my pregnancy and delivery last year. That involved, obviously, lots and lots of doctor appointments and a hospital stay, and I had really good experiences with all of those. It was nice to feel like my care was really coordinated and things weren’t getting lost in communication errors between organizations.

        It’s sometimes mildly inconvenient – for example, when I had strep throat and my doctor was willing to prescribe antibiotics for me without an office visit but I still had to drive across town to the HMO-run pharmacy instead of going to one of the countless CVS/Walgreens in between my home and the HMO med center. But on the other hand when I was at the OB-GYN for a checkup and had an issue that needed another specialist, they were able to say things like, “OK, I called dermatology so they know you’re coming. Take the elevator to the third floor and it’s on your right.”

        1. OperaArt*

          I’ve been with the same Big Well Known California HMO for several years. I was very glad of that this spring when diagnosed with breast cancer. (I’m doing great, now.) Everything was coordinate—within a week I met with the surgeon, the oncologist, and the radiation oncologist all together in a conference room. I never had to deal with paperwork or trying to coordinate my care. It was wonderful.

          I compare that with my mother’s very good PPO. Her coverage is good but the amount of paperwork can be daunting.

          1. GreyjoyGardens*

            Ten-year BC survivor here! Wishing you all the luck in the world. One day this will be in your rear view mirror.

            When I was diagnosed, it was with the same HMO, and I have absolutely no complaints about my treatment. It was first-rate, and it saved me so much time and hassle (I’m single and childless, so managing my care was all on me) because everything was already coordinated and in the computer and under the same umbrella. I was even able to get some counseling with a LCSW to get through those first “ohmygod I have cancer EEEK” months.

            If an HMO is good, it is very very good, and if it’s bad it’s horrid, IME. Luckily I had the “very good” experience.

    2. stitchinthyme*

      If you can find out some of the doctors’ names in the HMO, you can look them up online and see how their reviews look.

    3. the gold digger*

      I would love to be able to have an HMO again. In theory, if you stay within the system, you don’t have out of pocket expenses.

      With a PPO, however, you can think you are doing everything correctly – seeing a network specialist, for instance, but Blue Cross of Michigan will say, “Sure, that’s our specialist, but because you saw him in a hospital*, it counts as a hospital visit and not an office visit**, so you have to pay a $500 deductible before we pay.”

      And then with Blue Cross of Michigan, which is run by unethical people who do not disclose this hospital/office issue in any of their materials, doesn’t pay your claim. And you are stuck with a bill of several hundreds of dollars.

      BTW, Blue Cross has had a bad reputation since I worked for Prudential health insurance in the late 80s. Avoid them if you can.

      * Which is where his office is
      ** Which has a $45 co-pay

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      PPO tends to have fewer restrictions on which doctors, who you can see (ie don’t need a referral), etc. HMOs are designed (no comment on if it works) to help manage your care. So you find a primary care doctor (PCP), and you see them, and if you need to see a specialist you have to get a referral from your PCP first. HMOs also tend to have fewer options in the network, though that isn’t a given.

      Also check to see if there’s differences in what’s covered. For example, one plan may cover allergy shots, but the other won’t. Again, not always an issue but worth checking.

      Given your ages and history, you’re probably ok with the cheaper premium. But you’ll need to reevaluate that for every open enrollment.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’m a nervous-nelly so I’ve always gone with PPO plans. If something is wrong, I can get it taken care of faster/easier. But it is definitely a personal decision. $50 a month can be a lot.

    6. MeM*

      I’d go with the HMO unless it has a bad reputation. I had the same HMO for years, had a very good experience with them, and was referred to specialists with no problem. I might have had to wait a week or two longer to see the specialist, though. Example – dermatologist I preferred to see was only available two days a week. I did have surgery, and it was diagnosed and performed swiftly – no unnecessary wait. However, my husband had the PPO plan and coincidentally choose to see the same doctors that were available to me in the HMO. I’m now in a PPO and still go to two of the specialists I saw in the HMO – I just see them in a different office.

      1. MeM*

        Just a side note – the office staff in the two specialist offices each made me get a referral from my primary doctor when I changed from the HMO to the PPO. They just couldn’t wrap their heads around the fact that my insurance was now a PPO and I could self-refer. It was easier to just go along with them and get the unnecessary referral.

        1. FlyingFish*

          I work in a specialty office that requires a referral regardless of whether the insurance does. We do it because people have a tendency to self-refer inappropriately. For example, we’re teapot specialists who repair teapots. We don’t make special blends of tea or repair coffee pots, but people assume that we do.

    7. DivineMissL*

      It’s been a while since I’ve used an HMO (have had PPO for 15 years). It’s important to check to see if your current doctors are in-network for both plans – if they are, you don’t have to switch doctors! I currently like having a PPO because it doesn’t require any referrals, so it is more streamlined than the HMO. But besides that, in my opinion the medical care we received under the HMO was the same quality (same doctors); you save money on premiums, but there was just a little more paperwork and fewer choices. YMMV!

    8. dr_silverware*

      Use the HMO. Having a PPO can be helpful if you’re planning on specialists and you’re confident navigating medical bureaucracy. But it’s healthy as heck to have a PCP and have an in to getting just antibiotics if you need it, have a nurse line to help you triage, to just have a regular checkup so you can practice preventative medicine and have someone to help track vaccines. You can do this on a PPO, but having an HMO require it can be helpful. Also, cheaper :)

    9. fposte*

      Do you know when the next benefits choice period is there? I always go for PPOs or whatever the even pricier I-get-what-I-want service is, but 1) you sound like good candidates for an HMO and 2) I doubt you’re going to be locked into the decision for very long so you could probably change your mind in a few months anyway.

    10. Observer*

      Do you have a GP / Internist you are happy with? If yes, then the ability to keep seeing them is a crucial piece of information. The $50 per month to keep seeing a primary care physician you like and trust will pay for itself.

      If that’s not a factor, then the others have made some good point. Again, a key thing is to see what their primary care services look like, because that’s your entry to everything else.

    11. King Friday XIII*

      My experiences with HMOs have been pretty good, but it definitely depends on the HMO and how well they’re organized and how good the system coverage is. I have Kaiser Permanente right now for example and 95% of everything I’ve needed to have done is in-network, even most of the fancy MRIs and dental and whatnot. My spouse and I have each had to see a specialist outside of the network and for the most part it was pretty simple as well. When I was on my parents’ plan a million years ago it was an HMO but it seemed like a lot more things were out of network. So look at what the HMO has to offer and decide based on that.

    12. JD*

      Keep in mind it isn’t just a $50 difference as PPO’s have deductibles and out of pocket expenses HMO’s do not. You very likely would have to pay a few thousand up front before your insurance takes over. That being said HMO’s can suck depending on the region, as other’s have said. I believe if you are not likely to need to see specialists that often and HMO can be a lot easier.

    13. Been there*

      Take a long look approach to this, the option you choose now may affect your future choices. My company for awhile stopped allowing people to change from other options into the PPO. They were allowing those who were enrolled to stay.

      I like PPOs knowing that they may be the more expensive option for me. It’s been a long time since I’ve been in an HMO, but I didn’t like the restrictions and limitations on them.

    14. Struck by Lightning*

      I’ve moved an average of every 3 yrs for decades and IME which one is the better option had far more to do with the individual plans and providers than the type. I’ve had some decent experiences with HMOs…but one period that was so incredibly awful that I doubt I will ever go with one again.

      I hate to say it, but late 20s and early 30s is also where both my spouse & I developed some chronic conditions despite leading healthy, active lifestyles.

      I’d read the fine print on both and really read reviews & plan ratings for both. I’m lucky as a fed we are provided very detailed rating metrics for every plan available…hopefully you’ll be able to find something similar!

    15. Theme Park Employee*

      For me, the HMO option was more expensive than the PPO option. And although the PPO has deductibles, and higher copays, based on my personal situation (mid 30’s, relatively healthy – see my Dr 1-2 times a year for minor illness/injury, see a chiro monthly for back pain), the PPO is still more affordable.

      My wife works for the same company. (We have separate health insurance, because it’s far cheaper to cover “Employee Only” than it is to cover “Employee + Spouse”). She uses the HMO because she has some health issues and sees a Dr far more frequently, and also sees a few specialists. The cost for the HMO works out to be cheaper, based on what she uses, than the PPO.

    16. Aardvark*

      You’ll probably be fine with an HMO.
      That said:
      * Switching primary care physicians under some HMOs is very difficult–you have to make the request by the 15th of the month for it to take effect by the first of the next month, there may be a limited number of providers who are accepting new patients, and so on.
      * If you travel a lot, it may make sense to get the PPO. Some HMOs have limited coverage areas, and getting treatment if you’re away from home could be tricky.

    17. Specialk9*

      I find that if the doctors I have in PPO are higher quality than HMO. (I almost died from terrible care that was the opposite of proper care, when I had HMO insurance.) Many renowned doctors hesitate or don’t take HMO.

      But if you have the choice every year, you might start cheaper then change plans if you end up planning for a baby or you get problems. I believe so long as you were insured it should be ok but don’t quote me on it.

  9. all aboard the anon train*

    So I’ve been job searching for almost two years now with little success. I finally had an offer – and one that was double my current salary – and had to turn it down.

    The benefits were truly awful (no 401K match, I’d lose 3 weeks of vacation time, steep out of pocket medical costs, etc.) and there were some other red flags that made me realize it wouldn’t be a great fit (bonuses were dependent on how much you brought outside hobbies/interests into the workplace to share with coworkers, they didn’t have any training or resources for new employees, they went on about how they were in the city but asked you to travel to the suburbs for clients 3-4 days/week and pay for your own car & gas with no reimbursement).

    It was a hard decision to make, especially since it took me two years to even get an offer and it was SO MUCH MONEY. I could have easily paid off my medical debt within a few months on that type of salary, and would actually have been able to start saving a lot. But I weighed that against being miserable in the job and the other red flags, and turned it down. I know it was the right decision but I can’t stop thinking about how much that money would have made my life easier.

    1. SophieChotek*

      That does sound like a tough decision!
      Um…how does bringing outside hobbies into workplace lead to bonuses? My hobby is rice-sculpturing!….

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        It was mostly centered around creating interest groups….so if BBQing was your interest, you’d create a BBQ group for anyone else who was interested in BBQing, and you could have BBQ events outside of work or as parties for the office.

        And they asked everyone in the interview stage about volunteering because they wanted people who gave back to the community, and shared that with their coworkers.

        I think both ideas could be good in theory, but I didn’t like that they seemed mandatory and had an impact on your performance review/bonus. If they had phrased them as optional or an added perk, I would have been fine with it.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Thanks for the explanation.

          “My hobby is opera! I aspire to be the next Florence Foster Jenkins.” I wonder how well that would go over? all the co-workers getting together to sing opera badly?

        2. Funbud*

          I’m probably just old and crusty, but this sounds hellish. I have hobbies and interests, but a) I never want to impose/inflict them on others, mainly because I never suppose anyone else would be interested, and b) I’m basically an introvert, so I mainly enjoy my alone time to pursue said hobbies and interests. By myself. While I am polite, I really don’t want to have to hear all about your historical teapot reenactments. It’s nice for you, but do it on your own time. But this could just be my reticent New England upbringing showing through.

          My current employer has a fairly robust volunteer/contribution program working with local charities (homeless shelter, youth groups, environmental groups, arts groups) and a couple of annual volunteer events that are very well attended. But it’s not mandatory or even made to feel mandatory. Still, the activities can be fun and response & participation are usually very strong from my co-workers. If you are actively involved with a charity and you ask for a contribution from our employee charity your application will get more weight, but if you are not personally involved with the charity they still get a contribution. An effective but not overbearing education program throughout the year keeps employees informed and aware of what the employee charity is doing and how employees can become involved or contribute. It’s really a nice feature of my company.

          I think the thing that really makes me pause with your situation is that any of this would potentially impact your annual review/bonus! That really sounds like a literal carrot/stick situation and would rub me the wrong way.

          1. all aboard the anon train*

            My reticent New England up bringing probably has something to do with it, too. I do enjoy companies where, say, they have a book club or an after works sports team you can join, but as long as it’s voluntary and no one is being forced to join or it impacts your work performance/review/etc.

            I don’t mind sharing interests with coworkers, but being demanded to do it is where I draw the line. It’s one thing if I choose to participate in a hobby with other coworkers, and another thing entirely if I’m told I have to bring my outside of work life into the office.

            1. Specialk9*

              I mean, if I knew going in it was a bit kooky, I’d probably choose to go with it, given the doubling of salary.

      2. Nea*

        I was wondering the same thing. What if someone’s hobby is dressage – are they going to be penalized for not bringing a live horse to the office? (OMG, what if their hobby is jousting? It’s the Maryland state sport, and you’d need to bring a live horse, armor, lance, and quintain To. The. Office.)

          1. Specialk9*

            I actually know somebody who was on the tv show Full Metal Jousting. He jousts. He’s a jouster.

        2. JustaTech*

          Or what if your hobby is taxidermy? Or rucking? (Rucking is where you go on really long hikes/walks with a 40+ lb backpack.) Or sailing? Or burlesque? Or any of the billion hobbies that are individual activities or don’t transport well or you don’t want to share with coworkers?

          Oh AATAT, I feel so bad for you! But I think you made the right choice.

          1. cornflower blue*

            My mind immediately went to this. So many trainwrecks in waiting. Belly dancing, trapeze artistry, hunting, drag racing…

      3. Clewgarnet*

        My hobby is horse-riding. Am I meant to bring my horse into the office with me? I don’t think I could fit him in the lift and he’s terrible at stairs.

            1. Drew*

              “Dear Ask a Manager, I just started a new job and I learned they’re a horse-friendly office. I didn’t see any horses when I interviewed!”

              1. Natalie*

                Relevant bit of trivia! Only two specific types of service animals are protected by the ADA – dogs, and miniature horses.

              2. Amadeo*

                LOL, you jest, but I had to do an externship when I was getting my AAS for my vet tech license and the vet boss didn’t believe me when I told her this. She took me with her on a farm call and assigned me a task that put my neck, shoulder and arm right up against the belly of a horse.

                I was covered in hives wherever I’d touched the horse with bare skin when we got back to the clinic.

                She threw the bottle of Benadryl at me and took me at my word after that.

    2. Cheesesticks and Pretzels*

      While the money would have been nice, you made the right decision. The wacky bonust structure along with having to travel at your own expense would burn anyone out no matter how much money was offered for a salary.

    3. paul*

      That sounds freaking bizarre. Basing bonuses on bringing outside hobbies in?

      you want me to teach my coworkers how to do deadlifts or photograph rattlesnakes on company time to get paid more? OK….that’s just weird.

        1. Specialk9*

          Exactly. I’d invent a passion for something relatively easy and enjoyable. Reading in hammocks, anyone?

    4. Book Lover*

      Perhaps you are underpaid at your current job, but double your salary presumably would cover the 401k match, the out of pocket medical costs, the car and gas with no reimbursement? For me the vacation is priceless, but realistically similar positions usually pay similarly. Just some of them put it in wages and others in benefits.
      I wouldn’t like the weird bonus structure either, but I think reasonable people could choose the second place if they prioritized cash in hand.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        After I did the math, it ended up not being worth it financially for the loss of 401K, much higher medical costs, and the car/gas. I also live in a city where parking is expensive and there’s no way I was buying a car while living in the city and having to fight for a parking spot every single day. I’d still have made more with each paycheck than I do now, but it really wouldn’t have been worth it for everything I’d have to pay out of pocket.

        The salary was higher, but the benefits were much, much worse than what I currently have. Health insurance is a big thing for me, so I wasn’t really keen on paying more out of pocket for worse coverage.

        1. kittymommy*

          It makes me think that they blind people with the high salary who then quickly realize the downside. Wonder what their turnover is??

    5. Susan K*

      That must have been a hard decision to make, but it looks like you did a good job of weighing the pros and cons. Some of those issues would have eaten a lot of that extra money, too. You likely would have been taxed more on the extra salary, and the loss of the 401(k) match, higher medical costs, and more transportation expenses would have made a pretty big dent as well. Good luck — with patience, you will find a job that pays better but won’t make you miserable.

    6. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I’m thinking of getting into skeet or target shooting with either a small gun or a bow and arrow. That would just terrify coworkers, wreck eardrums, and possibly break the law!

      1. nonegiven*

        You’d need a shotgun for skeet but I didn’t think they were illegal. Not at work, you have to go to a skeet club for that, it takes some room.

    7. cornflower blue*

      You did make the right decision. There are so many red flags there, your outside hobby could be bullfighting.

    9. SansaStark*

      Ugh I’ve had to make this decision, too, and it was awful. But it sounds like you did a good cost/benefit analysis and saw that while the paycheck would have been higher, the expenses (not to mention your happiness and sanity) would have increased so much that you probably wouldn’t have been able to pay off the debt, saved some $, etc. as quickly as you would have liked. The good news is that your resume, cover letter, and interview skills are all working – you got an offer! Hopefully a better one comes around soon.

  10. WellRed*

    For awhile I’ve been thinking it’s time to move on from my job. It’s a small media company and I am one of the editors. I haven’t had a raise in six years, but the benefits are decent and culture is a perfect fit so it’s scary to leave that. The problem is, since journalism is a dying industry, and I’m kind of burnt on it anyhow, I should probably look to change fields but have no idea what that might be. To make it worse, I am 47 and single with a chronic health issue so am very risk averse. I can’t afford to make the wrong move (though I realize there are no guarantees in life). Help! Where do I start?

    1. SCtoDC*

      Not sure where you’re located and what the job market may be like, but have you thought of taking your editing skills to a company/organization with an internal communications department? I work for a large non-profit and we have a huge communications department, which includes quite a few editors. It’s stable and the benefits are usually good.

      1. WellRed*

        Thanks, this is along the lines of what I was wondering about. Course, the job market isn’t great, but I hadn’t thought of nonprofits…

        3. Media Circus*

          Ooh, yes, nonprofits are a good idea! Also, if you’re in an area with colleges/universities, they can be a rich source of comms jobs. I was the assistant in a large research university’s news bureau for several years, and almost every single PIO (public information officer) we hired had a journalism background. Heck, *I* have a journalism background. And for those of us who are a little older and like a stable health plan, higher education jobs can be nice and consistent. Of the coworkers who left that office while I was working there, the majority of them *retired* from the office.

    2. Argh!*

      Save every penny you can so you have a cushion in case you wind up unemployed.

      Journalism of the kind you are doing now may be “dying” but writing isn’t! Editing isn’t, either. You could start a blog, write it for a year or two, then invited others to write posts and you’d be the “editor” of the blog.

    3. Catty Hack*

      Not sure what your market is but most ex-journos I know have gone to PR and comms. It’s also not considered ‘taboo’ if you decide to jump back again as know several people who have done that too, so might be a good option if you don’t want to risk going for a move that feels like it’s going to be your career forever more.

      1. WellRed*

        Hehe. We refer to switching over to PR as going over to the dark side. That said, I have worked with many wonderful PR people who make my life soooo much easier. They don’t have an easy job.

    4. ronda*

      i worked for a big media company that has been having lots of layoffs in the past few years. I worked in accounting but saw lots of comments from people who did other things like editing etc. It seems like it was difficult for lots of people to find something similar and many pay-cuts where taken. (lots of older workers where included cause they offered a voluntary layoff if you were over 50 and had worked at company for 10 years.)

      So be realistic about what you can expect.

    5. Specialk9*

      Check out proposal and grant writing. The hours can be long when writing to deadline, but you will always have work, and there’s no end to the need to bring in money. Consulting, construction, universities, I believe pharma?, etc.

      DC area government consulting, if you have at least a college degree, bonus for masters. (Live in Maryland or Fairfax VA to save money – DC and Arlington are expensive, some DC neighborhoods can be iffy.) Your benefits should be quite good, especially medical. Consulting firms range widely in quality but with a liberal arts degree, look at Booz Allen Hamilton; if you can talk tech/science, Mitre (PhD heavy), Boeing, Lockheed. (I wasn’t impressed by what I saw of L3 or General Dynamics but they got big contracts.) Stay away from Capitol Hill (Congress) and Dept Homeland Security. The smaller Fed Executive agencies can be really enjoyable.

      Most big corporations have Communications depts. They write or approve messaging to employees, put out press releases, review employees’ pubs (presentations at conferences, articles for publication, case studies). Sometimes they monitor and respond to social media, though that’s sometimes Marketing. Benefits can range widely.

    6. One of the Annes*

      Have you considered state government? I went from a small publisher (there about seven years) to government writing and editorial work (in that now for about ten years) and have been pretty happy. The work has been interesting and challenging. I took a pay cut to begin with but made much of the difference up over a few years and then got a big pay bump after taking a new job in a different agency. And the benefits are good. A lot depends on your state, though, of course.

  11. KK*

    Me again (aka, the girl whose boss got fired in a Waffle House after he was found to be taking cuts of sales reps’ commission for 10 years!)

    I have another update…OldBoss reached out to me via message on LinkedIn yesterday! It read:

    KK,
    You are a great person and employee! I hope only the best for you and trust the truth will emerge someday about my departure. Give the next General Manager a chance and you will prove to him/her that you are a valued teammate.
    Take care,
    OldBoss

    I did not respond to the message. I think several parts of the message speak volumes to his character (or lack thereof).

    1.) “I trust the truth will emerge someday about my departure.” Um, I already know the truth, and it doesn’t look good for you.
    2.) “Give the next General Manager a chance.” Total arrogance, in my opinion. He apparently thinks he was the only one keeping me around. If I were to leave here, it certainly wouldn’t be because I’m sad that he’s gone.
    3.) “You will prove to him/her that you are a valued teammate.” I’m not a new employee. I’ve been here for 2+ years and have established great rapport with all of my colleagues, and other managers in our (rather small) office. While of course I’ll value the new GM’s opinion, I don’t need OldBoss’s direction to “prove myself.”

    I didn’t respond to the message. Maybe I’m overreacting by dissecting every part of the message, but it just got me really fired up that he feels he is in a place to offer me professional advice after what he did!

      1. Specialk9*

        Well, he’s at least hoping to put out a more self-complimentary version of what happened than the truth. Sometimes it works, but not here.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ugh.

      Honestly, I would be tempted to disconnect on Linked In from someone who has that kind of reputation.

    5. Lucky*

      Different take. He wrote a self-serving (but likely, in his mind, friendly and warm) message in hopes that you would response, so he could fish for information.

        1. Lora*

          Fish for information or try to sway your potential testimony. Had a subordinate once who was fired for extremely good reasons, starting with “when I told him I needed the report by Friday, finished and edited so please get the draft to me end of business Wednesday he screamed FK YOU LADY, YOU THINK YOU CAN FK ME WELL I FK YOU in a client’s office at top volume” and ending somewhere around “turned out to have lied about his education” and then he sent me several texts and LinkedIn messages about how he hoped I was doing well and just wanted to say hi and thought I was a great engineer etc etc. I never responded. He was fishing for a reference and hoping that I wouldn’t ruin his chances at an organization where my previous boss was working, knowing that we were still in touch.

    6. fposte*

      I think whatever his impulse, it doesn’t look good on him and silence is your absolute best response. Coupled, of course, with telling us :-).

    7. Ama*

      So I’ve had in my career two different bosses fired for financial malfeasance, and both pulled stuff like this.

      One tried to call me at the office for about a week after he was marched out of the office, but I missed his first two calls and then started avoiding his number. I had found out from coworkers who he talked to that what he was really after was to “apologize” so he could get that rote “It’s okay” forgiveness that we too often reflexively say to be polite, and I already knew the consequences of his actions were that my role was getting absorbed into a department managed by a really dysfunctional micromanager and losing our temp her job so I was very much NOT in the mood to forgive him. He eventually gave up but not without leaving a sulky voicemail about how “he guessed I didn’t want to talk to him.” (Got that one right, buddy.)

      The other, who spent the year I worked for her trying to turn me against the other two people in our office (who also reported to her, and apparently offended her by making off-hours plans without her, their boss), left me a book on writing (she knew I had a writing degree) with some overly friendly note about how she believed in me or whatever, as if she didn’t know full well that she had left such a huge administrative mess behind that it would take years to clean up.

      I think in both cases they were trying to make themselves feel better — one by trying to get my forgiveness, and the other by setting herself up as some kind of mentor — so they wouldn’t have to deal with the ramifications of the professional nightmare they’d created for me and the other people in the department.

    9. Marthooh*

      Reach out and ask to hear his side of the story. Offer to meet him for lunch at the Waffle House.

    10. Nugget*

      I work as in-house counsel for a Big Corporation with locations in many major cities, and we are moving into a new headquarters in our city in a few months– our current location is pretty terribly located and outdated so the move has been anticipated for quite some time now. The new location will have an open-office layout and only VPs and above would have offices of their own. This is a major adjustment for a lot of the attorneys and other professionals who have had their own offices for years, but generally we’ve been team players and have gotten on board with the idea. That was until we found out that not only would the office be open concept, but to “encourage collaboration and mobility” none of us will have assigned desks. We will be expected to keep our laptop and belongings in lockers and claim a new work space every morning. We wont be able to personalize our desks (cause we won’t have our own desks) and I can’t help but be kinda grossed out that I will have to use shared phones and keyboards every day. Am I being a curmudgeon, or am I right to think this is absolutely ridiculous and a step too far? Does anyone else out there have this kind of arrangement in their office?

      1. NewJobWendy*

        It’s ridiculous but don’t be grossed out. Buy some rubbing alcohol wipes in bulk and just wipe down the keyboards and phones. It’s what we did when I worked at a hotel front desk. Also while you can’t have assigned desks, I suspect that unofficially people will lay claim.

      2. Anion*

        That’s a hideous idea. What happens the first time somebody comes to the office to visit Employee X and is thus privy to privileged conversations between Attorney Y and Client Z?

        Plus it’s gross and cold; aside from germs (yuck), you’re people, not cattle.

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          I had that set-up when I worked for a county system – almost everyone was fully mobile so there were designated reservable offices to meet with clients and others in the secured area to meet with other staff. Everyone from child protection, disability, hr, etc. I know area managers didn’t have their own offices so maybe one level up did. I assume a law office would offer similar confidentiality protections.

      3. Specialk9*

        Applying hot desks to highly qualified people (like, oh, lawyers) with options is a baaaaad idea, they will just leave and then recruitment for replacements will be hard especially for top quality workers. Bad idea. Those kinds of things work when employees are short-term, or stuck and don’t have many options.

        My old company tried this. People teleworked while the renovations were happening (companies always try to make cattlecar desk setups look so slick! and mod! to hide that they care more about cost-cutting than morale) and just… never came back. We had about a quarter of the people from that floor actually show up regularly. The renovations on other floors kept getting pushed back…

      4. consultant*

        I had this arrangement in the job I just left. It was awful. And there were more of us than desks – some people needed to do home-office every day – so you needed to reserve and there were struggles for desks, especially on Fridays. We were able to book a desk but only with a few days of advance. Not to mention that open space is not a good thing if you have a job in which you need to focus.

        It’s a waste of time and energy, I honestly can’t see what advantages this arrangement has.

  12. QY*

    I was reading an old post here on gimmicks (and why they don’t work). It reminded me of a story I read once in another advice column (no idea if it’s legit though) where a candidate, at the end of the interview, requested to be given feedback regardless of the outcome. She then placed $2 on the table and said that was to cover the costs of the call (this would’ve been before email was commonplace).

    Even back then I wasn’t sure what the point of the story was (oh apparently she got the job because the interviewer was impressed that she was willing to invest in her own development), but thinking back, sooooo many things wrong with it! For one thing, exchanging money during an interview? Surely that would raise questions regardless of how small the amount? Also, if she was paying to get feedback then she needs to cover not only the cost of the phone bill itself but also the time the interviewer spends to prepare/communicate this feedback?

    (I really hope no one who read that article ever tried this tactic!)

      1. selina kyle*

        As a former bank teller – feel free to ask if you ever go in to make a withdrawal. If they have any in their drawer, the tellers would probably love you for a chance to give you a two dollar bill!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It isn’t just the exchange of money… it’s just weird in general. A company that can’t afford to make a phone call? The whole thing is bizarre.

    3. fposte*

      I could only see it “working” if the candidate meant it as an eff you to a company that had treated her cheaply. Even then it would probably mostly cause puzzlement.

    4. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Also, maybe I have a misunderstanding of how phone bills used to work, but even in the pre-email days, making an additional local call wouldn’t have added to the bill, right? Unless the $2 was meant to cover the cost of the caller’s time, in which case it seems like a laughable underestimate.

    6. Close Bracket*

      She did impress the interviewer and get the job, so I can’t find that much fault with her

      1. Chaordic One*

        But I can find fault with the interviewer, falling for a cheap and sleazy gimmick like that.

  13. Murphy*

    Thanks to everyone who answered my question last week about clocking out while pumping. Long story short, my state and my university has no “paid break” policy, so it’s really up to the manager. Mine told me not to worry about it, so I don’t have to clock out anymore. Yay!

      1. Murphy*

        Oh, sorry! I’m a nursing mom. Pumping breastmilk. I say it so often, I didn’t even think about it!

    7. New Bee*

      Hooray! I just stopped pumping yesterday; my kid’s about to make a year and I’m trying to get down to just feeding at home. You can do it!

  14. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Two work-related (although not my job) SHOUT-OUTS.

    Hats off to the person who deleted Tangerine Trayfe’s Twitter yesterday!! I was nose-to-grindstone on a report and didn’t even hear about it until after 5. So disappointed I didn’t see that.

    Wishing the best to everyone who worked for DNAInfo & the Gothamist sites. (LA-, Chicago-, SF-ists, etc.) Watching what the Writers Guild does now…support these people if you can.

    1. Lady Jay*

      Ha, I’d come over here to talk about the Twitter incident too. Wouldn’t it be lovely if that ex-employee had written in to AAM! There are so many letters asking for advice about whether to do something terrible on the last day or not; it’s fun to imagine that one coming in. :)

        1. Lissa*

          It’s also kind of amazing to think about because it sort of points to social media as, in some ways, an equalizer. If that employee is allowed to delete accounts, then it doesn’t matter WHO the account belongs to….they have the same protections or lack thereof as anyone else (I know in reality it doesn’t always work that way but in some technical ways it still does!)

          1. Snark*

            Just a point of clarity – the account was just suspended, not deleted. The press covfefe is somewhat misleading on that point.

          2. Manders*

            It definitely raises a lot of questions about how social media works behind the scenes! I don’t think Twitter was built with the expectation that it would be in the international spotlight for this kind of stuff, and I’m surprised they haven’t made any changes to their system given their recent notoriety.

            It also makes me wonder what the deal is with their lack of response to all the harassment problems they’ve had in the last few years–if it’s really that easy to suspend an account for harassment, why are they acting like it’s a huge ordeal?

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              I work in tech – not in social media, but adjacent – and I have two guesses:

              1) Big social media companies like Twitter and Facebook really have no idea what they’re doing. Not in terms of the technical capabilities of running big social media sites, but in terms of the social and ethical implications of how those sites can be used and twisted for nefarious ends and how to address that. These tech companies grew rapidly by hiring lots of engineers, software developers and data scientists…not social scientists and ethicists who can help them parse it. They’re trying to play catch-up now but they are behind the power curve.

              2) Partially because of #1, they were trying to stay as neutral as possible – above the fray, in an attempt to try to maintain business and web traffic from all sides of the controversy(ies). I work in a part of the industry that has attempted to take a similar stance with similar kinds of issues, and this is one of the things I am bringing up at work all the time – we CANNOT remain neutral on this, because there’s really no such thing – remaining neutral is essentially taking the side of the trolls and spammers who come in to ruin the service. But I’m a social scientist and it’s part of my job to bring the social science lens to all the developers and engineers who aren’t really paid or trained to think about that stuff. Lots of companies don’t have that.

              In harassment cases that go viral, social media companies like Twitter are terrified of taking a stand because they aren’t sure who they’ll anger and who will boycott the service, losing them money. And oddly sometimes their PR people aren’t always equipped to handle sensitive identity politics matters correctly (because again, they’ve overindexed on techies and techie-adjacent people). I bet when something like this happens they’re running around scrambling trying to figure out what to say or do.

              Twitter has also openly said that they essentially suspend their TOS for high-profile people – if those people break the rules they will leave them on the service because it drives traffic and attention.

    3. Jadelyn*

      You know, I was idly researching the DNAInfo/Gothamist situation last night, because it seems to me that this would get into a really murky grey area as far as legality goes – if the company closed specifically in retaliation for unionizing, I feel like that’s a pretty clear-cut case of unfair labor practices. The only hesitation I have on that, though, is that he closed the whole business, and a business owner presumably has no obligation to keep their company running if they don’t want to, so I’m not sure where the law falls on that one.

      Would love to hear if anyone with more experience in unionizing and NLRA stuff wants to weigh in on this.

      1. Maya Elena*

        ‘m sure there are laws preventing someone from going out of business at will in isolated circumstances (e.g., stopping the rental of a property with a current tenant in it), but I

        1. Maya Elena*

          Darn, comment posted before I finished. I meant to say, I would expect most people to draw the line at forcing a private business to stay open and operate, especially at a loss, if they were closing it entirely.

      2. Manders*

        That’s a great point. I have no idea what the laws are on this, but I’d like to hear more about it from someone in the know.

        I’m surprised that the response was shuttering the whole sites immediately instead of selling them–that’s a lot of value to basically flush down the toilet to make a point. I know that even with unionized employees, those media properties were still valuable and someone would have wanted to buy them. It seemed like a spectacularly business-unsavvy move from someone who claimed it was all about business.

        1. Optimistic Prime*

          Apparently, DNAinfo has never made any money since he started it. He bought Gothamist to try to combine them and help control costs, but apparently it didn’t work. Ricketts claims that the unionizing was only one factor that contributed to him deciding to shut them both own.

      3. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Unfortunately, there was a decision under the Supreme Court that actually made an exception for closing a biz due to unionizing. In that case, IT”S A-OK!! :-\ See Textile Workers of America versus Darlington Mills, 1965. IANAL, but, I am the daughter of union ppl. So, I know this stuff.

      4. OlympiasEpiriot*

        See SCOTUS Textile Workers of America versus Darlington Mills, 1965.

        Legal to shut down biz.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      That was a great going out in a blaze of glory kind of story. I admire whomever that was.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It’s sort of surprising (and heartwarming?) that this kind of things doesn’t happen more often. How many thousands of employees have the ability to turn off a celebrity’s twitter/nose around in their 401(k) accounts/etc.

    6. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      My friend pointed out that it’s pretty remarkable that a customer service rep had the power to do that – that means there are a loooooooot of Twitter employees who had that power. I guess it wasn’t the power to make any permanent change (it didn’t delete the tweet history in a non-recoverable way or anything) but still.

      I’m sure that there’s been some kind of change internally at this point so the next customer service person who resigns can’t just do the same thing.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        That was probably the most surprising part to me too! It makes me wonder if others will follow that lead.

        One of my friends said that it was the best 11 minutes of the year.

      1. Lady Jay*

        It’s a snarky reference to Donald Trump; his Twitter account was suspended by an outgoing employee yesterday. It was the employee’s last day. The account was suspended for 11 minutes.

        This truly is the blaze-of-glory-to-end-all-blazes-of-glory story.

      2. Lady Jay*

        Okay, so I’m figuring out what makes comments go to moderation. Let me try that again. :)

        The “Tangerine” is a snarky reference to the current US prez; a Twitter employee, on their last day with the company, suspended his account yesterday. It was suspended for eleven minutes.

      3. kittymommy*

        Briefly w/o any opinion, yesterday an employee on their last day suspended President Trump’s personal twitter account for 11 minutes.

        1. Observer*

          I’m aware of that. That wsan’t the question.

          Fortunately others were kind enough to answer the question.

    8. Drew*

      Also Consumerist, which is getting folded into the parent company Consumer Reports but without almost any of the actual staff.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Don’t think so. It started under Gawker, then the non-profit Consumers’ Union (those who publish Consumer Reports) took it over and I think they are just folding it into their website now.

      2. Becky*

        Is that what happened with Consumerist? I use their RSS feed and loved it and was disappointed I wouldn’t be seeing their content any more.

    9. Observer*

      To be honest I find this to be somewhat enraging. Nothing to do with politics, but Twitter just came out with updates to their “anti-harassment policies” (which in the past have amounted to ignore it unless someone we don’t like is involved), blathering about her SERIOUSLY they take harassment. Well, as Manders pointed out, if any Joe Shmoe can take down an account, why is it so hard to take down an account that is posting revenge porn, harassing and the like?!

      Also, what’s to keep someone from doing this to others? And what ELSE does every Tom, Dick and Harry at the place have access to? That’s really scary.

      If I knew that this guy were applying to my company, I’d be talking to HR and the ED in a flash. What’s to keep him from deleting the client records of a client whose political views he doesn’t like? (OR at least trying to – we DO try to keep some sort of security going on this stuff.) What other decisions will he make, that could damage the organization?

      1. Fictional Butt*

        And as others have pointed out elsewhere on the internet– could this employee possibly do more than just delete the account? What if he had sent out tweets from the President’s account about a politically sensitive situation?

      2. Anion*

        Yes, exactly this. I don’t think it’s worthy of applause at all; it’s horrifying. You don’t get to arbitrarily silence people just because you don’t like them.

        And as someone who watched a friend be harassed on Twitter for months and months, including the posting of her home address and phone number, while Twitter did NOTHING (despite the fact that a number of of reported every harassing tweet), I find it infuriating that they somehow “find” the delete button so easily when someone with whose politics they disagree has something to say.

        1. Lissa*

          I don’t think this has anything to do with the politics of twitter as a whole though. It was one dude. He might have done the same thing to anyone, it just so happened this is how he picked. If he’d been of a different political persuasion he could’ve done it just as easily to a different figure. Twitter themselves put it right back in less than 15 minutes, so I really don’t see how this has anything to do with the politics of anyone of one dude.

          1. Observer*

            That’s really the point. They CLAIM that it takes all this trouble to turn off a genuinely harassing account for REASONS. But clearly those REASONS don’t exist if someone actually WANTS to turn off an account. Clearly no one WANTS to be “bothered” with turning off harassment.

            And what happens when the next person someone wants to shut up is someone you happen to agree with? It simply shouldn’t be possible to shut someone down because you con’t lie their views. And it shoulldn’t be acceptable to any prospective employer.

  15. Anon for this*

    I just had a really disheartening performance review. I’ve had three managers in the past year: Lucinda, Fergus, and Joe. Lucinda left for another job 6 months ago. Fergus, another manager in my department (the Teapot Design Manager), became the interim Teapot Maker Manager for 4 months after Lucinda left. Finally, Joe, a teapot designer, was promoted to Teapot Maker Manager 2 months ago. Since Joe is new in his management role, Fergus wrote all the teapot makers’ performance reviews this year, but due to schedule complications, Joe gave me my performance review (even though it was written entirely by Fergus)

    The problem is, Fergus hates me. I don’t even know why, but I have always sensed that he has a personal dislike for me, and it was even more obvious when he was my manager. My performance review reflects that as well. Fergus made several comments on the review that didn’t make any sense. He wrote that I have been disrespectful in meetings, but he has never before mentioned any problem with that. Joe said he had no idea what Fergus was referring to and was unaware of any instances of me being disrespectful in meetings. Fergus wrote that I hoard my knowledge, but Joe said that my peers have specifically mentioned (unsolicited) many instances in which I helped them and showed them how to do things. Fergus gave me an overall rating of “average” but Joe said he thinks I am the top performer in the department.

    I told Joe that I know Fergus doesn’t like me, and I’m not sure why, but I don’t think it’s fair that his personal feelings about me are affecting my performance review and therefore my raise. Joe agreed that Fergus doesn’t like me and said that other people have commented that Fergus has been treating me unfairly. But he also said there was nothing he could do about this year’s review, so I will just have to wait until next year when Joe is writing the reviews to get a better one.

    This is all really hard to swallow because I have worked my butt off to be the top teapot maker in the department. I work much harder than any of my peers, and it shows in the quality and quantity of my work, and I think I deserve at least a slightly higher raise than people who do the bare minimum (less than half the work I do, and often half-assed). I have also been passed over twice this year for a promotion to teapot designer, because Fergus is the hiring manager for that position and he wouldn’t hire me. He is also second in command to the department director, Mike, and I am pretty sure he has bad-mouthed me to Mike, so I basically have no future here as long as Fergus and/or Mike are around. I just feel like a chump for working so hard for nothing.

    1. GG Two shoes*

      Could you ask to have Joe give you an updated review (even informal) in 3 months? That way he will have about 6 months with you and you will know what you really need to work on based on your actual manager’s feedback.

    2. La Revancha*

      I would go to HR and explain this situation, especially since Joe says he “can’t do anything about it”! This isn’t fair to you and is extremely immature on Fergus’ part.

    3. CatCat*

      Can you ask Joe if he will be a reference for you?

      This whole situation blows, but it sounds like Joe is reasonable. You’re not a chump for working hard and it sounds like you have a great reputation with Joe and your peers. It’s probably time to move on and parlay your hard work and experience here into a better opportunity elsewhere. If the organization chooses to reward mediocre performers rather than their top performers, that’s up to them, but you also only need to put up with it until you can find something better.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Seconding this. The fact they let Fergus do this unchecked and poison your reputation with Mike means they really don’t deserve your loyalty.

        1. Anon for this*

          I have to admit I’m not sticking around out of loyalty. This is the only chocolate teapot company in the area, so in order to get another job, I’d either have to move or take a huge pay cut to change industries (my skill set is valuable in chocolate teapot manufacturing, but not so much in any other industry).

    4. Kathenus*

      Good suggestions so far. I’ll add that you might want to add a written response to your review, to Joe and HR, and ask that it become part of the official document stating basically what you did here about what you believe are untrue comments and the examples you gave here that refute them. Sorry you’re dealing with this, but at least Fergus isn’t your manager anymore, so going forward you’ll be in a much better place.

      1. Anon for this*

        I do plan to add a written response. The reviews are processed electronically, and there is a space for employee comments that will get saved along with the review. But I don’t think it will do any good, because the reviews and raises are already finalized. Even though Fergus is no longer my direct manager, he is still going to cause problems for me because I will never get a promotion if he’s involved in the decision.

    5. WellRed*

      Fergus was only your manager for 4 months? Joe has been your manager for half as long and disagrees with much of the review. Fergus is an ass and Joe could push back a bit on the review if he wanted to.

      1. Anon for this*

        Joe also previously worked with me as a peer, so I think he is much more familiar with my work than Fergus, but since Fergus was my manager for slightly longer this year, apparently his opinion is the only one that counts. Joe is a nice guy, but not really inclined to rock the boat by arguing with Fergus.

    7. Close Bracket*

      Oh, that’s terrible! :-( I hope Joe will take it upon himself to be your advocate for a promotion.

  16. Loopy*

    Work from home folks- does anyone have scripts to keep friends and family from intruding on work time with requests for chores and errands? Anything that firmly but politely makes clear that work time absolutely cannot be disrupted. I’ve seen the issue mentioned a lot around the site and am asking from a friend.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Honestly just keep saying “no.”
      And to some point, I just won’t answer the phone/personal email when I am at work, otherwise family/friends get “trained” into thinking I am available.
      It is frustrating – I work from home and my mother not too infrequently calls and asks for some favor…because she knows I can just pop-out and do X.

    2. Temperance*

      I think you need to be more polite than firm, ESPECIALLY when it comes to repeat offenders. I’m a big fan of the whole “no is a complete sentence” movement, but for those who wouldn’t be comfortable, it’s also totally fine to keep repeating “I’m working, I cannot do X”. This is like a million times true for doing other people’s chores(!), which is so shockingly rude to me that I don’t think I could respond in a normal way. I don’t actually do my own chores most of the time, though, so YMMV.

    3. Turtlewings*

      Definitely one factor is to just make it as difficult to interrupt them as possible. Locked door, headphones, Do Not Disturb setting on phone, etc. — trying to get as close as possible to being as physically inaccessible as if they were elsewhere. Whatever messages get through, don’t answer them until work time is over (or at least until it’s time for a break). Don’t reward the unwanted behavior!

    4. Loopy*

      This is great advice! Anyone have issues with people that actually live in the house that might be able to make requests outside of that work time (like over dinner etc.) That can’t necessarily be blocked by not answering phone or text?

      1. Temperance*

        I think it depends on who is doing the asking, and who owns the home. If you own the home, and your parents live with you, you can just shut them down immediately. If your parents own the home, and you live with them, you can say no but then you are more or less obligated to offer an alternative. If the person is your spouse or partner, you have some room for negotiations.

        Booth works from home a lot, and I will ask him if he has time to run a specific errand (for example, running to a store that is only open set hours). He can always say no. It’s a little different, though, because we’re a one car household, so either he does it while WFH, or he’s stuck taking public transit to work so I can do it.

      2. fposte*

        Do you mean “Hey, can you run house errands sometime?” kind of stuff or “Hey, can you give me a ride to practice tomorrow at noon?” In other words, is the problem timing or the level of expectation?

        “Sorry, that’s work hours–gotta work then” is a fine answer to questions like the second. Questions like the first are an “it depends”–that may mean more a conversation about what kind of expectations are appropriate in your household for the various members rather than a simple “I can’t do that on top of a work day.”

        1. Loopy*

          It’s a friend’s situation but I get the sense it’s a lot of little things around the house that add up. Laundry and cleaning that take up too much time to reasonably do while working but need to be done say, because a guest is coming over that evening or that weekend. So it seems like a last minute type of oh, we need to do x and y before guest arrives, can you do that?

          1. fposte*

            “I can’t do it tomorrow because it’s a work day–how about we do it together tonight?”

            But everybody has to do laundry and cleaning, whether they’re working inside or outside of the house, and in the vast majority of shared households it needs some negotiation. It sounds like that needs some discussion in its own right, and if this is living with parents, that is, as suggested, an additional layer of complexity.

      3. justsomeone*

        My dad worked from home most of my childhood (and still does). He made it really clear to us that he was “at work” and we couldn’t treat it any differently than when he worked in an office. “No, sorry I’m working.”

    5. Thlayli*

      I used to work from home a lot and I have always been clear with people what doing stuff during the day entails. So for example if my Mam asked me to do something if it was something I didn’t mind doing I would say something like “no problem it should take about 2 hours on Tuesday I can work late half an hour for four days that week to make it up”. That way I’m still doing the favour but making clear exactly how it is inconveniencing me. If you keep doing this any time you agree then any reasonable person will factor how much it inconveniences you into their requests and they will stop asking for things unless they really need it.
      If it was something I didn’t want to do or for a person I didn’t feel obligated to help I would just say no sorry I’m too busy that day.

      1. Alice*

        I think your second paragraph is right on the mark.
        About your first paragraph — it seems like maybe the “no problem” response you gave as an example actually means “it’s a problem that I can work around this time, but please only ask again if you really need it.” I might need that spelled out for me.

    6. Turquoisecow*

      My husband works from home 2-3 days a week, and his ability to do any other tasks varies depending on what else is going on. If he has a doctor’s appointment or wants to go with me to one, or a worker coming to the house, or something else he needs to get done, he won’t schedule any meetings in that time period. He will often do laundry; take it downstairs at breakfast, move to the dryer at lunch, retrieve at the end of the day, but I don’t really expect any more housecleaning from him aside from occasionally turning on the roomba. He can sometimes make enough time to run an errand (pick up dry cleaning or a prescription) over lunch.

      When we first moved in together, I wasn’t sure what to expect from a work from home environment, since I’ve never been able to do it. The way his job is (and maybe *he* is, he’s basically going to be keeping an eye on emails/slack/etc and if something happens, he’ll jump in even if it’s a day “off” or a weekend or whatever.

      It took me a little while to realize that, even though he’s in the house, he’s mentally in the office. I think that’s harder for someone who’s not in the house with the person working. I was out of work for several months and not allowed to drive for medical reasons, so at first it was like “yay, you’re here!” and while it was nice to not be physically alone, it was not a day off. So if you have someone who is incessantly nagging you about this, maybe it would be helpful to somehow make this more tangible to them, like, lay out your agenda or a typical workday.

      The only time he’s really had other people expect extra from him has been his boundary-crossing Dad and stepmom, who will be in the area and want to meet up at 3pm and not understand that people are at work. But that would be the case even if he were in the office, and while he has trouble saying no sometimes, he’s usually capable of saying no when there’s a work excuse attached.

      1. LAI*

        Thanks for this! The “mentally in the office” thing makes sense to me. I just started working from home one day a week and have been struggling with how to explain it to my partner. He’s a teacher so he’s used to a very strict work schedule, and it’s always clear when he is working or not. I’m exempt in an administrative role, so I have a ton of flexibility. If I were in the office, I might work for an hour, then check personal email quickly, then work for an hour, then grab coffee with a coworker. It’s harder to draw the boundaries, so it was harder for me to explain why, no, I can’t clean up the yard while I’m working from home.

        1. Turquoisecow*

          It was a hard concept for me to grasp when I first started working in the office, because I had this mental image of “at work=working”, after years of school and retail work. But people periodically have personal conversations, or check personal email, or text or look at the internet or whatever, and it’s not a big deal at all.

          I think it helps if you have a set-aside designated work space, like an office or at least a desk, so you can clearly indicate “working” and then have an end time for yourself.

    7. Someone else*

      If the person is also at home and asking me for stuff, I do just default to “I’m still working” and that usually shuts it down pretty quickly. Sometimes “I’m working but will be done at X o’clock, so I can do that/talk to you then.” If they’re not home, I just don’t check my personal email or texts that frequently. If the phone rings and it’s family, I usually answer it “hello, is everything alright?” and if they say yes, straight back to the previous statements. I might be lucky that I don’t get these interruptions frequently and when I do, the above shuts it down. If you’re dealing with someone you’re trying to prevent from doing it in the first place, a firm “I work from X to Y o’clock and can’t talk in between”. But really when makes the most difference is cutting it off in the moment or setting yourself up so you’re not even seeing/replying to the messages until you’re on a lunch break or done for the day.

    8. Erin*

      “No, I’m working til ”

      If it’s a spouse or someone you live with, you need to define very clearly what wFH means. I go into my home office after the bus comes for the kids in the AM, emerge at 5:30. Maybe I get lunch and pee at some point. I do not do errands much less housework!

      If I have an awful call (think 5 hour meeting of which 10 minutes is relevant to me), and I can’t multitask on another work project, I may pop in my Bluetooth and fold laundry or chop veggies quickly.

    9. Mephyle*

      A sales trick – make your ‘no’ a ‘yes’. Lead off your answer by naming when you can do it. Sure, I can do that for you/yes let’s have a coffee together, at XX o’clock [in the evening when you’re off work]/on X day [a day when you schedule your non-work things]. Sorry, I’m on a deadline and I can’t talk now, but I’ll call you back. Is 8 pm all right? Bye now, talk to you later, have a good day.

    10. Specialk9*

      “Oh I’m sorry, my cell coverage is so flaky in this building” and then you don’t answer till after work hours. (I’ve had this situation, legitimately, so it’s completely possible.)

      1. Specialk9*

        Oops sorry, reading fail, you said at home, not just at work.

        My spouse shuts the door to the office when uninterruptible. Our agreement is the door means no.

  17. Sharon*

    Just writing in for sympathy. :) I’ve been job-hunting for a few months because I hate my current job. A couple of weeks ago I was called in for a face to face interview, and that went very well. I was submitted for the position by a staffing agency but I interviewed with the client agency. About a week later (October 26th) I received a phone call from the staffing agency saying the client really liked me and wanted to offer me the position. He told me the salary offer and said I’d hear more from them the following week as they worked through my background check (for a minor clearance). Last Monday I sent an email to him and the client agency with a couple of questions for the hiring manager. They were things I should have asked in the interview but forgot, but since he invited me to email with any other questions I thought of, I thought this would be okay. (The questions were if the job required travel and if the dress code was business formal, nothing outlandish in my opinion.)

    No reply. Then this Thursday night I got an automated email from the client agency’s HR system saying that I was not selected for the position. I suspected a glitch or miscommunication but wanted to just check, so I called the staffing agency rep. No answer, so I left a voicemail. This person’s voicemail was not customized with their name, just an automated “number xxx-xxxx is not available, please leave a message” so after four hours with no return call I thought maybe I had the wrong number. I called another one, got another un-customized voicemail, but I left one more message.

    At this point I think they’ve ghosted on me so I’m not going to contact them again. Very frustrating. They may still come through with communication at some point but as Alison advises us to do, I’m sending out more resumes to more posted openings in my area. The worst frustration ever is when they verbally make an offer and then ghost. Do you guys think I did anything wrong to cause them to run?

    1. Temperance*

      I think your mistake was in calling multiple times. I don’t think this was “ghosting”.

      Four hours isn’t a reasonable time frame to expect a return call, especially if someone is busy.

      1. Sharon*

        Completely agree. I would have waited longer except that the unprofessional (no name) voicemail message made me think that I’d called a wrong number. Or is that common for staffing/recruiting agencies to not put their names in their voicemail systems?

    2. La Revancha*

      Yea, this doesn’t sound like ghosting. It sounds like someone is busy and hasn’t had a chance to check their voicemail.

      1. Sharon*

        I really hope they haven’t ghosted me. But just to clarify/summarize, they have not responded to one email or two voicemail messages (to two different people). I expected them to send me a form to fill out for the background check at the very least. And I wouldn’t have called them at all if I hadn’t seen the “thanks but no thanks” email from the client agency. I think it’s fair to want to know if that’s just a mixup or real.

    3. GG Two shoes*

      Wait, I’m confused, you called them at night? Then four hours later you called again?

      Even if I’m in the office, at my desk, I don’t answer or return calls after work hours. Boundaries.

      1. Sharon*

        No, sorry. I got the email at night, called them the following morning during business hours, and then called a different person at lunchtime. I wouldn’t have called two people if not for the unprofessional voicemail system.

        1. Temperance*

          I actually don’t think it’s unprofessional. I get a ton of unsolicited calls from people who want free legal help, and sometimes, when they hear my name, they start calling reception asking for me and trying to track me down. I don’t return unsolicited calls to people who want my help because every time that I have, it just ends up with the person making unrealistic demands and making their issues my problem. (I used to call back and suggest resources … btu that’s a mistake, because they often have a reason why only my firm can help, so they keep pushing).

          1. Sharon*

            Okay, thanks. This does make me feel a bit better. I’ll just try to be patient and let them contact me on their own timeline.
            (It’s just that lack of communication, especially with something as confusing as being offered a job and then being notified that you were NOT selected for the same job tends to make a person’s imagination run wild wondering what in the heck went wrong!)

            1. Artemesia*

              If you got a message that you were not selected why would you expect any more communication from them? They didn’t ‘ghost’; they told you you were not selected. What more is there to be said? (one followup to the agency to see if there was a misunderstanding was reasonable, but no more)

              2. AshK434*

                She was originally offered the job though. I think some clarification from the staffing agency is justified

        2. Lily in NYC*

          That is so weird. They offered you the position so it was not wrong to call to see what was up when you got the automated rejection. They are probably embarrassed and don’t know what to say to you. RUDE. I’m sorry that this happened to you.

          1. Steph B*

            Yeah, I would definitely consider not working with that staffing agency / recruiter again, if you have options.

            I had an external recruiter contact me again and again about a position, do a full phone interview with me about it, get my details… and then when I asked for a few days to think a little more about the particular company and position, get a disappointed ‘OK then’. When I contacted her the next week saying I was ready to apply… they told me the company actually wanted someone with 2x the experience advertised (from 3-5 years to over 10 years) but would I be interested in relocating to Arizona? (no, no I wouldn’t.).

            I’ve been contacted a few times since by other external recruiters with the same exact job description and based on my discussions with them, it sounds like the recruiter gave me a complete lie about this particular job — the other recruiters aren’t aware of any change in the years of experience desired. I’m not even sure why but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

            In any case, this external recruiter recently contacted me to catch up and I’ve not really felt the desire to call her back.

            1. Sharon*

              Wow, sheesh. You’re right it sounds like she just made some excuse to blow you off. Very unprofessional. On the other hand, at least she’s keeping in touch with you. It sure seems to me that they find the least tiniest excuse to disqualify candidates. Then when you don’t hear back from them your mind goes through all the possible reasons why they blew you off: hair out of place, didn’t smile enough, smiled too much, misspelled a word in the application, transposed numbers in a date on your application, shoes dusty, on and on. And they wonder why we’re all so insecure!

    4. Close Bracket*

      The agency verbally saying that the hiring company wanted to make you an offer is not a job offer. Nothing coming from the agency is a job offer, and unless you work in some industry where written offers are uncommon, nothing verbal is an offer. I know how painful it is to have your hopes raised and then dashed. It’s fair to want to know what changed since you talked to your agency contact, but don’t ask the question thinking you had an offer that was revoked. You never had an offer.

  18. SophieChotek*

    What to do when your title is “inflated”?
    I am applying for jobs and technically my job is something like “Director of Communications/P.R. Coordinator, USA Division” – to me it makes it sound like a have a staff and a big department and tons of experience.

    But honestly, I only have a few years and it is department of just me (I write, edit, publish pretty much everything, though I do share the social media with the PR team overseas) – we almost operate more like a small start-up in the USA where everyone wears multiple hats.

    Do you think it will be clear from my resume that my title doesn’t really quite match my actual experience? Should I put a different title? Mainly I don’t want people to dismiss my resume if I apply for entry level positions and my title is “director” or think I must be really bad at my job if my title is “director” but all the things I mention in my resume or cover letter are more entry level stuff.

    Happy Friday!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think you should think of your title as inflated. You may not have the exact experience of other directors, but if you do what you described above, your work is not entry level by any means. I think you can just be clear in your bullet points of your résumé what you were responsible for.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      I feel that sometimes bc I don’t have the same managerial responsibilities or experience/knowledge as someone else in my job title (Sr tax acc) but the person who promoted me feels I am worth it so.

    3. Amadeo*

      If it were me I’d probably not use that official title and use something more appropriate. At a previous job I was a lot of things, including ‘Press Operator’ according to the owner/boss. I never used that title, I never felt it was appropriate, because all I did to earn that one was babysit the monstrous digital Xerox machine (feed it supplies, clear jams and sometimes cajole it into doing its thing properly, but nothing more).

    4. Turquoisecow*

      Unless you’re in a field where titles are standardized, I think it’s fine to write something that’s more accurate.

      My old job, the company kept rearranging the deck chairs in a futile attempt to save money. Each time, they claimed that positions were “eliminated” to justify mass layoffs; those of us that remained were retitled until my eventual title not only did not reflect the job I was doing, but also would have made no sense to any potential employer. Almost all of us with that title put something else on the resume.

      As long as your resume then clarifies exactly which responsibilities you had while you had that job, I think the specific title is kind of almost irrelevant. Again, depending on field!

    5. LAI*

      I think it’s still fair to use your title. Even if you’re not supervising staff, you’re still running the entire PR effort for your organization right? That’s still more responsibility than someone who reports to a director, since the director is presumably the one making final decisions. But just be clear about your actual responsibilities on your resume, and use your cover letter to make it clear that you understand and are excited about the specific duties of the job you’re applying for.

    6. Five after Midnight*

      I would use a title that reflects the jobs you’re applying for. As a recruiter once told me: “you need to be selling what they are buying”.
      First and foremost, your resume is a marketing document whose sole purpose is to get you an interview. This, of course, doesn’t mean you lie and add things you’ve never done or claim skills you don’t posses – it needs to pass “the truth in advertising” test. But it is an advertisement. Once you get to an interview, you can be upfront about the actual title and explain the context.
      Second, using the inflated title (notice no quotation marks) may get you prematurely eliminated from the hiring process because a/someone quickly scanning your resume will see “director” and toss it into the “no” pile because you’re overqualified – they will never get to your accomplishments; or b/if someone actually gets to your achievements listed under “director” the mismatch between them and the title will send up a red flag (or at least a yellow one) that you’re inflating your importance – it’s not likely, given the amount of time spent by screeners on each cv, anyone will bother thinking twice about it or checking out your current company or your LinkedIn profile.
      And yes, to me “director” means staff management and about a decade of progressive experience.

    7. Specialk9*

      Why do you think you are entry-level, if most places need multiple people to do what you do singlehandedly? That’s actually really impressive!

    8. publicista*

      From someone in that industry, those two positions named in your title are several promotions apart, so I would be confused for sure. But reading your resume would clear it up, as well as just looking at how long it’s been since you graduated from college. Hopefully any HR person worth their salt would actually look at the person’s resume before rejecting them based on title alone. However, if you have a few years experience, you should be applying to entry-level positions.

      If you want to, you could always reverse it – PR Coordinator/Director of Communications – so that they maybe see the Coordinator part first, since that is more on track with industry norms for your experience.

      If I might ask, why do you have those 2 titles? They seem to imply vastly different positions.

      1. publicista*

        EDIT to my comment above – you SHOULDN’T be applying to entry-level positions!! Can’t figure out how to edit sorry!

  19. Sunflower*

    Are there certain industry sales jobs that are easier/harder to break into? I’m interested in medical device but my research says it’s difficult to get into. I have a wide variety of industry interests though.

    1. La Revancha*

      It’s very difficult to get into medical sales (on the sales side). I used to work for St. Jude Medical (now Abbott) in their contracts department and thought about going into medical sales before I left the company. I spoke with a few people and there are a few ways to go about it, but here is what experience/education most people had:

      1) Hospital working background, either as a nurse or OR tech
      2) Science background (usually biology) with a lot of sales working experience
      3) Master’s degree in business with sales experience

      I think your best bet if you don’t have the above experience is to get a job at the company in a department where you would be working with the sales team directly (sales operations, contract operations, product marketing), specifically a department where you would need to learn a lot about the products that the company sells. After a couple of years of doing this, you could probably ease your way into a sales position. Another option, if you have a science background but not necessarily the above experience I listed, get a job supporting the sales team as a tech. This person is in the operating room with the doctors, working with the products sold, and supports the sales team. Good luck! :)

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      Natural foods and beauty products. It’s a growing industry that attracts people with a lot of…quirks. People who are pleasant enough to work in a sales context can be very successful.

  20. Susan*

    So this is a little situation–I found out a while back taht a few of my coworkers got together and created their own little company doing the exact same thing we do. there’s speculation that they may be taking our clients.

    Heres the dilemma–One of those people is someone on my team. The person who told me asked to keep it quiet even though they’re not involved. Others know so it’s not a huge secret.

    I was struggling with deciding whether I should tell my mgr or not. I just feel like….if this comes to light, it’s possible that HE can land in hot water for not knowing this. Again, the side hustle isn’t an issue, it’s the taking of clients. He’s someone I trust and respect a lot.

    What would you guys do in this situation? Keep quiet or tell?

    1. AMPG*

      If you don’t KNOW that they’re trying to take clients, I’d stay out of it. If you’re wrong, the blowback could hurt you, and there’s very little upside for you personally even if you’re right. If you have proof, then I think it’s your call – you don’t have to tell, but it’s understandable why you would.

    2. Nanc*

      It’s unethical. If you want to start a competitive business, fine, but poaching clients the current business has spent time and money on to build relationships is just skeevy. If your current company is under NDA with the current clients poaching them most likely violates that NDA and you don’t want go get caught up in the resulting poop storm.

      If it were me and I respected and trusted my manager, I’d tell. As to the person on your team who asked you not to tell, they have no right to ask you to keep a secret that could potentially impact your own job. If you don’t want to tell your manager, you might at least refuse to discuss the competitor at all because when it blows up–and it will–and your company finds out you knew it’s going to create trust issues.

    3. La Revancha*

      I knew someone who did this at a law firm I worked at. HR somehow heard about it and investigated his side business. It was a direct conflict with his contract with the firm and he was fired. If you decide to do something, HR will likely investigate to see whether or not your coworkers are stealing clients.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Tell your manager. Think about the hell you will go through if clients leave and someone finds out you knew and didn’t say anything. Most companies would fire you for that.

    5. Nico M*

      What good will it do you to tell?
      Seems to me: you aren’t greatly outraged, you aren’t worried you’ll be punished, and there’s no reward .
      So keep quiet.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t see how your manager could get in trouble if he genuinely knows nothing about the secret company.

      I would absolutely tell if I knew that not telling was against company policy and if I knew that I would personally reprimanded for not telling.

      If none of this applies to your setting my next hurdle would be figuring out time frame. The more people who know the more likely someone is to blow the cover. I have often joked that I am the last person who gets told this stuff, so if I know then the whole place knows and the countdown to discovery has begun.

      One suggestion I have is to back to the person who told you and say, “I am really uncomfortable with what you told me. Do you think we need to go together to report it or do you think management is close to figuring it out?” This may help you decide.

  21. Bend & Snap*

    Thanks to everyone who has given advice through my changing jobs saga. Last week I was asked to do a final interview with the C-level. This week I was asked to do two additional interviews, and learned that I’m in the final two. Should know next week.

    I was also floated a new role where I am.

    Cross your fingers!

  22. Nervous Accountant*

    I got in touch w the recruiter and turned down the second interview. I know I didnt’ want to proceed, but I still feel kind of crappy/weird bout it. A tiny part of me thinks I should have just gone ahead, gotten an offer and then used that for a counteroffer since I was told they were willing to match me at a really high salary i named. But I don’t think that’s ethical, and I didn’t watn to waste anyones’ time and I’m hoping karma rewards me for not being like this (although I know that’s not how it works). It would have been at least nice to see someone acknowledge that Im worth $XX.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I think you made good choices here. Sometimes being fair/ethical sucks, we take one on the chin. But over time people notice and they start realizing, “Hey, NA is a square shooter, she plays a fair game even when it might be a disadvantage to her. I wanna talk with/work with NA.”

      Your intuition went into warp-drive on that one. Probably for a reason. You probably made a good call.

    2. Specialk9*

      I think you’re overthinking. Getting a counteroffer is just part of the game. Conduct yourself ethically, yes, but this is not an example of behaving ethically. It’s just how things are done.

      1. AshK434*

        Don’t listen to this advice. I don’t know if this is ethical per say but it’s a shitty thing to do to waste a company’s time if you already know you definitely won’t take the job

  23. anon scientist*

    Earlier this week my boss plucked a hair from my head. I was talking to some colleagues and I had a stray hair (it was outside in the wind) and she just came up and plucked it from my head. Her excuse was that it was OK because it was gray….

    On a related note, has anyone done freelance editing/proofreading/copyediting for scientific writing? I’m wondering how easy it is to find work. Can it be a full time job, or at least supplement a lower paying job?

    I want out before I am bald.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I would have yelped and possibly (unthinkingly) swatted at whoever did that. Plucking a hair hurts! Besides, I say about my grey hairs that each one has a story.

      1. Steph B*

        Yeah, I am totally going grey in my early 30s and to be honest I am in love with it. I have a chronic condition that 30 years ago would have meant I might not live to grow old, and now I have the tools to live a happy long life. Each grey hair has been earned, darnit.

    2. Snark*

      Honestly, my feeling is that funding is so tight that most researchers couldn’t afford this, but there’s certainly a need for it . You could certainly supplement with it, but it might be a while before you have enough business to freelance.

      1. anon scientist*

        Yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking, too. I may try to target non-native English speakers, since that’s a lot of what I do in my current job (edit writing in English that is written by people who speak another language as their first language). Also, the funding situation is a bit better in some parts of the world.

        1. Birch*

          I did some freelance language proofreading in northern Europe, affiliated with a university. Sometimes you can apply to Language Services or Student Services type departments, if the university has one. You can also just advertise directly to students with prices that are competitive with the official university services, particularly for dissertations, since the university affiliated services are really expensive and at least where I am, only certain writing is covered by the departmental funding. It depends on the particular university area, how many foreign students there are and how strict the culture is about good quality writing. It’s ok for pocket money if you price yourself well, but it’s hard to find the work. It might be good to try to make connections at a university, or what about something like an online science magazine?

      2. paul*

        If your science funding is being hit as hard as our health/human services funding, you have my sympathies. It’s been a rough couple of years and its’ only going to get worse.

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I’m sorry….WHAT?!?!? I would have been thoroughly annoyed at that. What did you say to her?

      1. anon scientist*

        In a kind of joking tone I said “I’ve been physically assaulted”, and then one of the colleagues said she needed harassment training. I think she thought it was all joking, but in reality I was kind of serious, and I think the colleague was as well. One of them looked truly shocked, and the other looked less shocked but knows my boss quite well, and this, sadly is not shocking behaviour for her.

        1. Alice*

          Look, she shouldn’t have touched you, but I think the joking-but-not-really-joking approach was maybe not the response. Maybe, if it happens again, just say “please don’t do that again” or “never do that again” in a serious, level tone of voice? That way there will not be any uncertainty in her mind about whether you were joking or not.

          Good luck in the job search.

          1. anon scientist*

            I definitely recognize that it wasn’t the best response, but I was pretty startled. It was an automatic response. I’m just lucky my brain went with that over “what the F do you think you are doing?!”

      2. anon scientist*

        Hm, I think my reply got eaten, or is in moderation. When it happened, I made a joke that she had assaulted me, and the colleagues looked pretty shocked at the hair plucking. I think she thinks it is all a joke. Sadly, this is not too out of character for her. Hence, looking for other work opportunities.

        1. Snark*

          “You keep doing that, boss, I’m coming for your gray hairs.” o_o

          “HAHAHA, you’re funny, anon scientist.” :D

          “Am I.” o_o

          “…..oh.” O_o

    6. JaneB*

      Aargh!

      Will also be interested in any replies, I have the same question (although I want out or at least part time before I actually throw something at my boss…)

    7. Grrrr*

      I do the job you mentioned, sort of. I do it for people outside the US whose first language is not English. I just do it for a bit of spare money in addition to my day job, so they pay can be extremely variable if you do it freelance. It might be better if you work for a company. However, it is my understanding that there is a mostly unwritten rule that Anglophone researchers will be responsible for their own writing for publication in journals and it is somewhat unethical to use a professional technical writer, depending on what sort of institution the researcher works at. However, in the countries where my clients work it is expected that they will use a professional technical writer in order to get published in Anglophone journals. I also do it for non-Anglophones applying for research grants that require English applications, like some of the international conservation trusts. I generally do that gratis, though, for friends who work at non-profits. You could always look at textbook corporations, I suspect they might have some related jobs. What about applying for grant writer positions at academic institutions or science non-profits?

    8. MLiz*

      That’s my side gig (copyediting and translations for science), but I’m also treating that as a side gig. It makes me some nice pocket money and keeps my name in the field. I like doing it on the side, the experience I gathered has also led to me getting full time employment in the past, so there’s that.

      As for ease getting into it, I was rather lucky to still have some contacts from my previous academic organization (even though I left on pretty bad terms with my supervisor who was toxic) and still get some steady work from them. I also did some work for (pharmaceutical) industry partners in the past and that was a nice bit of cash to have on hand. So if you have any contacts still into some academic settings that would be good and helpful to get started.

      Though it depends on what specifically you want to do. I have a friend who now is a major editor for a Big Name Academic Journal (think big 3) and she started with an internship.

    9. Mephyle*

      I do editing/proofreading for all kinds of academic writing, in diverse fields. I got into it through freelance translating. I don’t remember how my first contacts found me (except for some that found me where I have a profile on translator job websites), but once you know one person from a department or a research group, they refer you to their colleagues, students and post-grads if they like what you do.
      It’s good if you can offer LaTeX editing; I don’t think a large proportion of editors can.
      It’s a part-time job for me, but on the other hand, I’m not actively seeking clients, I just take them as they come to me. If you hustled, you could probably make it fairly lucrative, though I don’t know if it would be enough to make a living.
      For some academics, whose English is not that strong, I find it invaluable to know something about their native language, because I can recognize the ‘false friends’ in their vocabulary and syntax. Sometimes they write something that seems to mean one thing, but you know it actually means another because you recognize they confused an English word with one that looks the same in their language but means something different.

      1. Mephyle*

        Oh, another thing, I have hardly ever met any of my clients in person, so they would not have an opportunity to lay hands on my hair.
        I feel outrage on your behalf.

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        How did you find your LaTeX clients? I am relatively well-versed in it and did some document conversion and table design for a journal for a while, but they switched to an agency and the agency wasn’t interested in hiring remote people, even though they didn’t have the LaTeX expertise in house. :-(

        1. Mephyle*

          Some through my husband, who is a math professor; some through my profiles on translation websites; and some I have no idea where the initial contact first found me, but he has sent quite a few other colleagues and fellow researchers to me over the years.
          Too bad about that agency, there should be other agencies that work exclusively with remote freelancers. Maybe you could try searching for those.

    12. anon scientist*

      Thanks for the insight on the possibilities with editing. I think I’ll try to get a few jobs and see how it goes. I’m pretty sure it won’t be a full solution but maybe it will help me save a bit in case I need to get out before I have another job, or supplement a lower paying job. I’d rather be doing something other than what my current job is, but all other prospects pay less, so I’d need to find some additional income somewhere.

    13. Specialk9*

      Rand and Mitre are two science oriented consulting companies. They tend to do very technical science based analyses for govt or industry. They might have opportunities in your area, or remote work.

    14. Not a Galway Girl*

      At my university, some of the departments have a full-time staff person listed as “Department Writer.” This is usually someone with a Ph.D. in a different field. They help with various kinds of academic writing, including giving workshops to grad students or polishing reports that have been put together by several different people.

  24. Snark*

    It’s that time of the week again! Is Alison’s advice insufficiently salty? Do you want sass rather than wisdom? Do you need someone to validate your worst instincts? Do you just want a funny story? It’s time to….

    ASK SNARK! *cheering, confetti*

      1. Snark*

        As of last week, this is a thing. Not sure if it’s a good thing or a bad thing, but it’s something.

      1. Snark*

        My advice would be to get your PFFTCHCHCHCHCH out of the way before your next staff meeting, not during.

    3. Lady Dedlock*

      Awesome! Here’s my q:

      I’ve taken on a bunch of higher level tasks since I was last promoted (about 3 years ago), and I recently went from having no direct reports to having one. I also had my performance review about a month ago, and it was stellar. My boss says that we’ll talk about putting in for a raise/promotion for me in the spring, after I’ve been supervising for a while and can say I’ve been doing it successfully. How do I tell him that I’ve already proved myself sufficiently? I feel like this is one of those times where, if I were a man, the promotion would have come when I took on new responsibilities.

      1. Snark*

        I think your additional high-level tasks and supervisory responsibilities call for a raise/change of title just on their own, not coupled to managerial performance. But how recently is recently? Because honestly, if it’s less than six months, he…miiiiiight….have a point about wanting to see you in action as a manager for a little longer before assessing your performance doing that. I might advocate for the approach of arguing that your additional responsibilities alone qualify you for a bump of some kind now, decoupled from your manager role which he wants to assess with more time under your belt. Feel me?

        1. Lady Dedlock*

          Recently is like 6 weeks ago. Maybe my question should have been “Dear Snark, how do I stop being so impatient?”

    4. nerkie*

      So my co-worker found out that I was reading a book on how to deal with sensitive co-workers… because of her. When she confronted me about it, I fully admitted to it and even cheerfully said that a lot of the tips were helping because it appeared our working relationship was getting better.
      The problem? I don’t think she understood that I was reading the book because of MY short-comings, not hers. I have a very difficult time relating to people on an emotional basis and she is very emotional. There is nothing wrong with that, but it was causing friction because my corrections were coming across as “overly harsh” (my managers words), and like I was being mean.
      The book has helped me immensely in learning how to communicate corrections and change in assignments in a positive manner.
      How do I smooth this over?

      1. Snark*

        I’d just circle back with her and reassure her. “I just wanted to clarify with you – I’m not reading that book to learn how to deal with you, I’m learning how to deal with ME! I have a hard time not coming off harsh and the book is giving me ways to work around that, so I wanted to reassure you that you DON’T HAVE TO TAKE EVERYTHING SO GODDAMN SERIOUSLY DAMMIT.”

        Maaaybe not that last part.

            2. nerkie*

              Conversation went smoothly! And I did add the last part once I’d gauged her to be in a joking mood. Problem fixed for now!

    5. Aurion*

      Dear Snark,

      Between technology issues, vendor screwups, and miscellaneous acts of god outside of my control, I am about ready to set the internet on fire. My boss said to me yesterday, for the first time ever, that “you seem really frustrated”.

      Some people are as cool as ice in the face of the apocalypse. I need to know their secret.

      1. Snark*

        If your boss is merely telling you seem “really frustrated” while the red mist clouds your very eyes, I think you have already found the secret within you, my compadre.

          1. Lora*

            Actual brush with death on a semi-regular basis works. Seriously, most chill people I know did multiple tours of duty in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am fairly chill and have had multiple cancer Dxs, plus been through a lot of personal crap (divorce from abuser, beloved relatives dying young sort of thing).

            You may wish to question whether this is something you truly want though – I regularly get the complaint that I don’t take work seriously or don’t care as much as someone thinks I should about a thing, specifically because I don’t freak out about stuff the complainer feels I should be upset about. The person complaining NEVER thinks of it from my perspective, that they are acting like an overwrought child upset about the wrong flavor juice served at snack time.

            1. Mal The College Student(Again)*

              Seconding this – I was a police/fire/EMS dispatcher in a previous life and when I get the inecvitable interview question of: “How do you handle a stressful situation” and/or “What if three people want the same thing at once?”
              And I tell them, you cannot stress me out. Even if you are dying, it’s fine. I can and have instructed CPR over the phone, been one the line during an armed robbery and had a knife pulled on an officer. YOU CAN’T SCARE ME, STRESS ME OUT OR FLUSTER ME.”
              Seriously though, like, paperwork? meetings? presentations? Psh. Bring it.

              ***I am also very shy, so please don’t make me answer the door and give out candy to trick-or-treaters – I SWEAR this happened last week – I’ve never lived anywhere with trick-or-treaters, but I am so hopeful we’d have some at our new house that this year when my husband yelled “there are kids coming up the walkway, go give them candy!” I panicked and was like, “I can’t, I can’t, I don’t know how!” And I LITERALLY got sweat on my brow because I was so nervous. I had a troll, Spiderman and a mini-police officer at the door. It was terrifying, LOL.

              But like, work stuff? YOU CANNOT SCARE ME ANYMORE.

            2. Camellia*

              OMG I call this “my yardstick”! Compared to what I’ve been through in my life, work stuff (and a lot of other ‘life’ stuff) just isn’t that big a deal.

              I’ve tried to explain this to a select few, asking them what is the worst thing that ever happened to you – now, how does this thing stack up to that? But they don’t really seem to get it. When they say, ‘I would die if I had to get up and speak in front of people!’ I’m silently thinking, no, you might die if you angered my mother at the wrong moment so having the courage to speak up anyway, as a child? Well, the stress of public speaking doesn’t hold a candle to that.

              1. Lora*

                You wanna hear something messed up – I just had an interview with a guy who remembered me from a previous job/project (we both since moved on), who thought I’d be a good fit for a new project that landed on his desk. The reason he thought that I’d be great was because I was the only person in the office who reacted to the resident temper tantrum-throwing hosebeast with utter calm and politeness – everyone else started crying or shouting back. The job apparently has a lot of all different types of personalities to work with…not sure how I feel about that.

                1. Specialk9*

                  That’s a really bad sign. He just told you that he thought ‘gosh who do I know who could handle a horrifically toxic working environment?’ Run, my dear, run fast and far!

    6. No, please*

      This reminds me of Ask Oscar on Sesame Street! It’s great! Here’s my question: My husband’s coworker asked if they would close the office for Halloween. Husband laughed and asked why he thought that would happen. Coworker said other businesses closed in Halloween. Have you ever heard of a business closing for Halloween? What would your response have been? The business is water restoration. Husband and coworker both respond to jobs on-site and do mitigation work.

      1. Aurion*

        I feel like restoration anything would be well-served to be open on Halloween and surrounding weekend nights due to possibilities of pranks gone wrong…

        1. No, please*

          Well, they did a murder scene clean up this week. It was a Halloween party gone wrong situation. So your assumption is correct!

            1. No, please*

              Husband googled the family and found a Wikipedia page about a past murder in the homeowners family. It’s become the topic of all shop talk this week.

      2. Snark*

        Actually, yes, our office closes on Halloween. It’s more of a practicality thing. I’m fully embodied, but most of my coworkers are phantasms and haints, and the entire admin staff are poltergeists, and with that many of us out, we’d have serious coverage problems and nobody’d be around to man the ouija boards. We just chalked it up to religious accommodations.

          1. Snark*

            In all seriousness, LOL WHAT NO. Nobody closes for Halloween. I think my response would have been incredulous laughter followed by a headdesk.

    7. HigherEd on Toast*

      Dear Snark,

      One of my colleagues is a deeply negative person who I can get along with professionally but don’t want to spend much time with or have personal conversations with. The problem is, they have a lot of friends here who are also my friends, and almost inevitably a casual conversation I’m having with these friends will turn into, “Did you hear about [negative colleague’s easily solvable problem that has been going on for years]? Isn’t [negative colleague] so BRAVE AND AWESOME for struggling through life?”

      What’s the best way to retain these friendships while also not hearing all about how negative colleague’s life is falling apart this week?

      2. Artemesia*

        ‘She sure loves drama otherwise she would (solution to easily solvable problem) and not make a career of it.’

        but then my friends know me.

    8. Grrrr*

      Dear Snark,
      I am wearing a shirt that says “It’s too peopley outside”. Should I care that it is unprofessional?

      Also, my coworker just texted me and wants me to bring some files outside, so that she doesn’t have to come in the building. I have already been bending over backwards for her lately, so I am ignoring her. There are at least 4 other people she can ask to bring her said files. Am I an awful person (and should I care)?

      1. Snark*

        Issue 1: Depends where you work, but I think after this week, most of us have burned through all our f**ks and can give no more, so you do you.

        Issue 2: Screw it, let someone else get peopled on for her convenience.

        1. Grrrr*

          Yesterday I overheard boss describing a desire to dress as a squirrel, climb a tree, and throw nuts at people. I think the shirt is probably fine.

    9. Can't Sit Still*

      My cube neighbor talks about horribly personal things on the phone all the time. Loudly. I’ve heard about her issues with her HOA, her dying father, and now, her yeast infection and how much it itches. How do I make it stop? My manager sympathizes, but can’t let me move, due to department politics. Help!

      1. Snark*

        Start offering advice and commiseration over the cube wall. “HEY BLEMINDA HAVE YOU TRIED CRANBERRY JUICE” “THE NERVE OF THOSE PEOPLE NOT LETTING YOU PAINT YOUR HOUSE FUSCHIA”

        Srs biznesz now: have you tried talking to her about it? I recommend being discreet and polite, but also embarrassing her. “Bleminda, I’m not sure you’re aware, but I can hear just about every word of your discussions about your personal family health issues and your yeast infection, and, well, it’s just not something I imagine you want me to know about. Can I suggest you take sensitive conversations to the break room or outside? Thanks! Hope your bits feel better.”

        2. Mephyle*

          I thought cranberry juice is for urinary infection. For yeast infection… yogurt? Or is it something else?

            1. Specialk9*

              Insert it. But don’t… only do that if actual medication doesn’t work. Some people have chronic problems and need regular microbiome supplementation, but should really be talking with a registered dietician who can test their strain of candida yeast and make a plan of attack for yeast overgrowth.

              So basically, OTC yeast suppositories first, then prescription pill, then nutritionist and a tailored plan of supplements.

    10. Mike Logan's interchangeable female partner on L&O CI*

      Dear Snark,

      I have one of *those* co-workers who think they are amazing and always has an answer (usually a negative one) for everything. She is never wrong. Please send help and sanity and some butter to go with my BEC.

      1. Snark*

        I have no sanity to spare and these people are beyond help. All I can offer is some hummus to dip those crackers in.

        1. Artemesia*

          Dear Snark
          If you want to write your own advice column should you not set up your own site and not hijack Alison’s?

          1. Snark*

            Because that’s not what I’m attempting to do. But thanks for the benefit of the doubt! I’ll make sure to return it.

    11. Argh!*

      Dear Snark,

      My boss and her boss want me to be a Stepford Wife. I have been a human being for over fifty years and I don’t think I can do this! Any advice?

        1. Argh!*

          I can’t express any emotions. I can’t be frustrated when someone refuses to do their job and it affects my job. I can’t tell my boss anything personal about myself, and she won’t tell me anything about herself. I can’t tell my boss if something isn’t working. She doesn’t want bad news, and I get written up if I vent to someone else. If I let down my guard I’ll be tattled on. I’m expected to pretend things are good even when they suck.

          When I first got here, several of the women seemed phony to me and now I know why.

          Also, it seems my ideas are more valuable and interesting if a man repeats them in a meeting after I first bring them up.

          1. Snark*

            Serious hat on: Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change. If you’re getting penalized or frozen out for discussing frustrations and challenges with your boss, and you’re not allowed to feel negative even about someone’s non-performance, then the culture where you work is probably fatally flawed. It sounds like an awful place to be.

            If you wanted to be confrontational about it, you could call your boss out on it. “Boss, I’ve noticed that you really don’t like it when I bring you bad news about a project or get frustrated when Fergus refuses to pet the llamas. I’m trying my very hardest not to be unnecessarily negative, but I’m finding it really hard to not be able to work toward resolution on truly negative issues, and it results in my feeling more negative and frustrated than I would otherwise. Is there a way I can discuss issues like that openly with you moving forward?”

            But I don’t see that getting much traction with someone who’s like, nope, around here we ignore our problems! So.

            1. Argh!*

              Any advice on a snarky reply to “Why are you applying for this job?” or “What do you like most and least about your current job”????

              1. Snark*

                ““Why are you applying for this job?”

                I need a reason to put on pants in the morning, and I need money to buy pants.

                “What do you like most and least about your current job.”

                I like that they’re willing to exchange pay for labor, and I dislike their value assessment.

    12. Solidus Pilcrow*

      Dear Snark,

      Last week a colleague introduced me to 2CELLOS and now I have their “Trooper Overture” * going round and round in my head. Should I send my co-worker a fruit basket or punch him in the face?

      (* The piece is a mashup of the William Tell Overture and Iron Maiden’s The Trooper, performed with cellos. Link to YouTube vid in my username.)

    13. Ihmmy*

      Dear Snark,
      I have a smelly coworker who was recently moved in to the same shared office as me. They swear they don’t use perfumed or scented products but every day there is a scent, and about every third day it’s strong enough to give me a headache. They talk about how when dressed down about this by their supervisor they have nearly been in tears about it. How do I deal with this? I’m exhausted from these chronic headaches but I don’t want to make my coworker cry.
      xoxo Ihmmy

      1. Snark*

        Don’t dress them down, but I think it’s totally possible to talk about this with them. They can’t hold everybody hostage with the prospect of crying. First, I think you need to try to identify what the smell…smells like. Is it floral, sweet, fruity, acidic/vinegary, what? Then….

        “Hey. Jane, I know you’ve caught a lot of flak about this in the past and it’s truly not my intent to upset you, but would you be willing to work with me to figure out what’s carrying a scent? This is causing me chronic headaches and it’s really not sustainable, so can you help me figure it out? It’s kind of floral, so my thinking is that it comes from a soap or cleaning agent.”

        1. Ihmmy*

          sadly we’ve pretty much already had that talk, and they insist they don’t know what’s causing the scent and they use unscented everything now and it’s just so hard to be them.

            1. Specialk9*

              Yeah, lots of “unscented” things just so happen to actually have a scent, sometimes really strong! It’s baffling actually.

      1. But Seriously*

        Maybe I lack sufficient humor to appreciate Dear Snark, but it seems disrespectful and a bit parasitic to be building your own following on Alison’s blog. Doing it once was a bit of fun, but repeating it just seems ethically squidgy.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I don’t think it’s parasitic (and I think it’s pretty funny!) but I do want to ask that it not become a regular thing because it adds a huge amount of comments to a thread that’s already overwhelmingly long for a lot of people. (And some people don’t read the open thread anymore because of the length.) Thank you!

          1. Snark*

            Sure thing. Might do it very occasionally, with your blessing, but I’ll keep it down. And glad you find it amusing.

        2. Snark*

          My advise to you, my compadre, is to let Alison decide how she feels about this and cut the hyperbole.

  25. Rowan*

    Topic for discussion: a company in Japan is given non-smokers six extra vacation days annually, to encourage people to quit and also to make up for time they don’t take on smoke breaks. Link to follow. Thoughts?

    2. Snark*

      Honestly, it probably just barely makes up for the cumulative FTEs swallowed up by smoke breaks, so I’m fine with that.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I am fine with it. Even working in the coffee shop for 8 hour shifts and having the smokers take 15 minutes to take out the trash, every 2 hours, is frustrating. To me it’s fair.

    4. Temperance*

      I think that is more than fair. The smokers in my office are outside nearly every 60 – 90 minutes, and it’s *not* like they aren’t also grabbing coffees, chatting with friends, etc.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it’s a great idea. I’d be fine with it being even more than six vacation days, too.

    7. MsMorlowe*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that I (or any other smoker) could take paid smoking breaks, so that’s strange to me, but yeah, I think that sounds fair.

      1. fposte*

        Most exempt employees can take smoke breaks without changing their compensation; it’s the non-exempt ones that probably can’t.

      2. Temperance*

        In my office, all the admin staff is required to clock in and out for lunch, but the HR system we use doesn’t have a mechanism for smoke breaks … so they get paid to smoke. Every CS job that I had only gave paid breaks to smokers, too.

    8. Been there*

      Why do non smokers complain about the smokers breaks, when they could just as easily get up from their desk and wander outside for a couple of minutes without the actual smoking part?

      I’ve never understood that, it’s not like there is a bouncer out in the smoking area checking for lucky strikes.

      Seriously the next time Fergus gets up for a smoke, get up at the same time and take a walk, go out and talk to Fergus, Sam, Wakeen and the rest of the smokers, look out the window, grab coffee.

      1. Snark*

        Talking to the smokers is a nonstarter because the smell is revolting. And frankly, I’ve got shit to do. So do the smokers. I focus best when I don’t interrupt myself, and lunch and two breaks is more than adequate for my break-taking needs throughout the day.

        1. Been there*

          So then I’m still confused if you don’t want to take the breaks then why does it matter if they do?

          It’s like this…

          Fergus: Ughh I hate those people that who can just walk up to flowers and sniff them… what about all of us with allergies, it’s so unfair.
          Wakeen: Here, take this allergy pill, if you take this you can smell all the flowers you want
          Fergus: No, I hate the smell of flowers, they stink, I prefer to sniff candles instead. I don’t need any flower smells in my life. Damn those flower smellers though… it’s still not fair.

          1. Snark*

            See below. It’s time theft.

            Oh, and your flower analogy is nonsense unless we’re assuming everybody goes out to smell the flowers every 90-180 minutes all day and takes 10-15 minutes of paid time to do it.

            1. Snark*

              Or, put another way: I’m not asking for more breaks. I’m asking for smokers to get their asses back inside and work.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I’m not complaining about anybody’s breaks. But I don’t need breaks as often as the smokers do. If they’re going to be taking that many breaks, why should they complain if I get six vacation days? Maybe I don’t want a break when they want to take a break. Maybe I prefer vacation days instead.

        1. Snark*

          That’s the thing. Not only do I not need a break, I don’t actually want one.

          And I am going to complain about their breaks. Let’s generously assume the average smoke break is 10 minutes (actually 15, usually) and the average smoker takes three of them a day (which is on the low side), and your smoker is taking a second paid lunch every day. That’s five hours a pay period, and if you work 25 pay periods a year (26 total, minus one for vacation) that’s 125 hours a year.

          That’s over a pay period and a half you’re getting paid to do absolutely nothing of any business value while your more productive coworkers shoulder the load. I think smoke breaks are time theft.

      3. Old Cynic*

        I tried, as a non-smoker, taking breaks when the smokers did. I got called on it. I pointed out the smokers were taking breaks too but was told it was ok since they can’t smoke at their desks anymore.

    9. kas*

      Love it. At an old job, the smokers were outside almost every hour and they would all go at the same time. I hated it because I couldn’t take the same breaks.

    10. caledonia*

      Given that Japanese work culture has recently been in the news in the UK for very negative reasons (overwork), this is probably a way for them to get more work out of the employees. Link in the new comment
      #cynic

    11. Turquoisecow*

      I saw this and thought it was something interesting to ask here also!

      I’ve worked with smokers who were discrete and took few (short) breaks and I’ve worked with some who took a lot of long breaks. There was one guy who used to annoy others because whenever they had a team meeting to discuss a large project, he would head out for a smoke break right after. The others would be ready to get started right away but he’d go outside for ten-fifteen minutes first. Either they had to wait for him before brainstorming, or they’d have to repeat their conclusions when he returned.

      I occasionally went outside with a smoking coworker despite not smoking; we didn’t have formal breaks aside from lunch and I wanted a few minutes away from my desk. It isn’t fair that they should get an increased amount of time off simply for indulging their habit, so giving me that time cumulatively sounds great.

  26. anon this time*

    I’m getting a bit ahead of myself here, but I am currently job searching and also have a very sick immediate relative. If I were to be offered a new position, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to give my manager a heads up about the situation? Or would it just make them wonder about my level of commitment?

    Honestly it’s not a great time to be job searching but my current position might end early in the new year.

    1. nerkie*

      So my co-worker found out that I was reading a book on how to deal with sensitive co-workers… because of her. When she confronted me about it, I fully admitted to it and even cheerfully said that a lot of the tips were helping because it appeared our working relationship was getting better.
      The problem? I don’t think she understood that I was reading the book because of MY short-comings, not hers. I have a very difficult time relating to people on an emotional basis and she is very emotional. There is nothing wrong with that, but it was causing friction because my corrections were coming across as “overly harsh” (my managers words), and like I was being mean.
      The book has helped me immensely in learning how to communicate corrections and change in assignments in a positive manner.
      How do I smooth this over?

    2. anon scientist*

      I would tell the new manager. I’m not sure whether I would say something at the offer stage, but I definitely would say something once I started just in case you need some time off at short notice. I would hope that any sane manager wouldn’t question your commitment. But I’ve worked for some insane managers, so it’s always a possibility I guess.

    3. Book Lover*

      I wouldn’t mention it. But do see if you have a chance to check out the culture or the new place, work life balance, that sort of thing. I am sorry about your relative :(

    4. Faith*

      Two and a half years ago I was in the middle of an interview process when my dad was diagnosed with an aggressive terminal cancer. I got an offer but knew I would only accept it if I got a sense that the new place would be understanding of the situation, especially since the organization I was trying to leave was letting me work remotely while visiting my dad (working remotely wasn’t usually a thing there). I wasn’t expecting as much flexibility at the new place, of course, but I did want to hear how they responded, so I told the person who called me with the offer (not my manager) what was going on. He really gave me the sense that the workplace is very understanding of “life” issues – in fact, his own wife had cancer so he often needed to take time off, and one of his reports had just been out for several months for her mother’s illness and subsequent death – and I trusted what he was saying enough to take the offer. I’m really glad I had that reassurance at the offer stage, and it did turn out to be totally true that my manager and the higher-ups were understanding and flexible about my need to take some time off as my dad got sicker and ultimately passed away.

      So basically – I did get lucky in terms of how flexible my workplace is, and of course my situation is different from yours because I didn’t need to take a new job and it sounds like you may, but I do think it was really worth bringing it up before accepting the position.

      1. anon this time*

        Thanks! Part of my issue is also that I work in an industry with few jobs and the expectation of lots of overtime, low pay, and minimal vacation and other benefits so I’m doubtful they’ll be very flexible (you may ask why I choose to stay in the industry, which I also ask myself sometimes). My current job is actually reasonably flexible, so it’s unfortunate that it’ll most likely be ending soon.

        1. Faith*

          Yeah, that does sound like a pretty different situation :( I’m sorry about your relative and about those aspects of your industry. I do still think it’s worth bringing up, but in this case maybe after the offer stage since it seems like your acceptance of a job wouldn’t hinge on their response. Also it might depend on whether you anticipate needing to take time off to care for the relative (a heads up is probably warranted) or only if they pass away, in which case only the worst of managers would begrudge you the time off whether or not you’d said something beforehand.

          1. anon this time*

            Thanks! Yes, I think I might need time to care for the relative. I guess the reason I wanted to bring it up at the offer stage is because I feel like it might be better received then than if I spring it on them later. It would be nice to be able to turn a job down for this, but I don’t really think I’m in a position to do that.

  27. Discouraged*

    What do you do when you feel purposeless in your work? The stats: software development, 10+years in, a semi-successful (in users) but not profitable (in dollars) side hustle is losing its luster. Want to do something meaningful but can’t get anything off the ground. Advice? What have you done in these shoes?

    1. Dawn*

      First, what does “meaningful” mean to you?

      Secondly, do you have to make money at “meaningful” work or would you find fulfillment through volunteering?

      Third, how long would your runway have to be for you to make a full switch from purposeless but pays the bills work to meaningful but might have to make some sacrifices work? Once you know how long that runway needs to be, you can set about paving it!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Purposelessness:
      I looked deeper to see what purposes I had been ignoring.

      I looked around to see how I could find purpose to bring into the job. For example, everyone ignored X, it needed to be done, it was too boring/too hard/whatever so no one did it. I decided to do it for the exercise, for the feather in my cap and because it made me set aside those feelings of purposelessness for the moment.

      A sense of purposelessness brings on glazed over eyes. Decide to look that the job as if it is brand new today. What do you notice that you had not noticed before? What do you see going on tangent to you that you can leverage into something greater for yourself and maybe some folks around you?

      Any job or side hustle brings us in contact with people that we would not otherwise be in contact with. What are these people commenting on, what are their needs for their work? And which of those needs are not being met?

    3. Darren*

      All of my side projects (I’m in software development as well) are done with the full knowledge that I’m probably never going to get much in the way of money from them, I’m doing them because I either find the work interesting, or to build my skills in ways beyond what I get at my actual work.

      If you are actually doing it trying to build a new potential main job that is another matter entirely, you’ve got a lot more expectations you are going to put on yourself, and as a result it’s going to have impacts on how you feel about the work. But if that is what you are looking for then you might be best building the skills and then trying to just transition into an area more similar to what your side hustle is.

  28. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I’d love some networking tips. I’m passively job searching, but need to be careful what I say on LinkedIn because I don’t want my current employer to know.

    Basically, my situation isn’t terrible, but I am kind of over working with the public and would like to move into something where that is not a significant responsibility. What is the best way for me to communicate this out to my network without tipping off my boss?

    1. Amy*

      I just went through this myself and landed a new job. I would casually mention to my peers in our monthly meeting that I might be interested in expanding my horizons. I also didn’t post anything on LinkedIn, but did privately message former coworkers and bosses and asked them to ‘keep their ears open for me.’ I received a call from a former coworker that her cousin’s business was expanding and after interviewing with him, I got the job. Good luck!

    2. Professional Cat Herder*

      I’ve just gotten into the habit of actively keeping my LinkedIn up-to-date regardless of whether I’m job searching or not, and when I am searching I turn on the setting that indicates to recruiters that you’re open for positions. I honestly don’t think a lot of places take the time to look at your LinkedIn, especially if you have a strong resume, so I don’t think it makes much of a difference if you state “actively looking for opportunities” in your profile or not.

  29. Sam*

    I’m wondering what you guys think about references. I’m less than 3 years out of college, and have had two jobs (one for 7 months, one for 2 years), and a bunch of college internships before then. I’m currently applying for new jobs, but can’t use my current employer. So that leaves me with the place I was with for 7 months (probably not a great reference), as well as my internship supervisors. Do you think in this case it’s ok to use kind of “old” references? At this point, some of these references I haven’t worked for in almost 4 years. Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      I just contacted a manager I worked with from 2010-2011 who agreed to be a reference. I was her right hand man at a fledgling school so while it’s been some years, I know she’d give me a good reference. She had previously left one on LinkedIn for me, but I asked her if she still felt comfortable being one since my current job can’t be a reference and I’ve been here 5 years. I say there’s no harm in asking, and then if they agree you can email them your current resume, and what you’ve been doing.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It’s an issue even if you’re not fresh out of school. I had the same job for a long time but did change managers pretty often, and now I’m on the job market. Two of my previous managers offered to be references but I hadn’t worked with them since 2010 and 2012, respectively. I’ll still list them because they’re more familiar with my job-search-relevant abilities, and I know they hold me in higher regard, than my more recent revolving-door managers (four of them, longest tenure = 8 months).

      I think if your manager from years ago has a better sense of what you’re capable of, they’ll be able to speak more enthusiastically about you than someone with less than a year exposure to you, or someone who managed you while you were working on, let’s say, less talent-showcasing work.

  30. DaniCalifornia*

    I am starting to get some response to my many job applications while I job search. While some have been ‘thanks but no thanks’ there has been a lot of networking going on this week! My husband’s large corporation had an EA job open and he also introduced me to an admin he knows there who was really excited to hear that I applied!

    I also reached out to a former colleague, and my old manager both who are willing to be references for me. And I have an interview with a recruiter on Tuesday. I don’t think I’ve ever networked this much, but I can’t wait to get away from my toxic job, toxic boss, and the toxic bird poo! (My boss still won’t do anything about it, he was also horrible to my awesome coworker who just left.)

    Any networking tips are appreciated! I have been scouring AAM here as well.

  31. Havarti*

    Yesterday after reading the ladybug letter, someone found one in my boss’s office as they were about to sit down for a meeting. I heard my boss say “just take it outside” but the person brought it to me. After learning some of them bite, I had no interest in handling it so I dumped it into a cup and interrupted my lunch to take it outside. The things I do… But the timing did give me a good chuckle.

    1. Lynn*

      Ladybugs can bite, but genuine ladybugs generally don’t (and it’s a little pinch). Asian lady beetles (an invasive species) do bite and hard. They also bother and bite animals, etc. They’re a slightly different color (more orange than red) but it’s noticeable if you really look (and have seen real ladybugs to compare to – some people haven’t). For an actual ladybug, you’d have been fine to carry it outside sans cup. Depending on where you are, might have been best to squish an Asian beetle. So, that’s my geeky FYI (a neighbor’s dog had a problem last year with Asian beetles inside his mouth and biting! and they out compete real ladybugs in some areas).

      1. Havarti*

        This one was definitely more orange than red but I wasn’t going to squish anything after what went down in the letter and comment section yesterday!

          1. fposte*

            BTW, it’s not so much that their bite is deeply horrible; it’s mostly that I’m bitter that initially the descriptions all claimed they didn’t bite at all.

      3. LCL*

        Aaah! Was your neighbor’s dog the one in that horrible picture that was making the rounds of the internet, where the bugs were all on the roof of the mouth toward the front? Poor pupper.

    2. Hellanon*

      I repatriated a lizard once – it got into the building during a rainstorm and people kept going at the poor terrified thing with trashcans and notebooks, to no avail. So I grabbed it by the base of its tail and took it outside. Really, wildlife belongs outside…

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have captured (on pieces of paper) many a stinkbug and taken them outside. I found most of them when I hadn’t even been here five months. Good times.

  32. Emmie*

    When you mentor undergrads, how to you counsel them about student loan debt in high debt professional fields?

    I mentor a few prospective law students. There’s always a careful line between encouraging first-gen law students to pursue their goals, but accurately conveying the realities of the job market, salaries, and astronomical student loan debt. It almost feels like the first characteristic of someone going to law school is to completely ignore my advice about the job market, salaries, and debt! Any advice, or shared experiences?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Honestl, yI think it is a fine line. When I went into grad school (and now have useless PhD) and am still job-searching, I knew there would be a six-figure debt at the end, but I thought I’d find a job, etc., etc. and would slowly be able to pay it down (plus possible Student-Loan Forgiveness with working in non-profit education), etc. I thought I understood what I was getting into – but I didn’t really.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        Me too. In retrospect it was rather arrogant of me but I thought I’d be that person who would get a great job and be able to pay off my loans with no problems. Instead I am on an income based repayment plan and have been unemployed since January.

        The PhD was really not worth it for me but I don’t think I would have been dissuaded. I did get some advice that it would be a big financial mistake but I did it anyway.

    2. Simone R*

      I think being as specific as possible is important. What is their end goal in going into law school and how likely is it that the schools they are looking at will be able to get them to their goal? Generalized advice that is gloomy is easy to get ignored. Different schools are differently equipped to set students up well for a successful career and being able to figure out how likely that will happen with a specific school will probably make job market/debt/salaries conversation seem more realistic and easier to weigh when making a decision.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d show them what their debt load would look like and what their student loan repayments look like and build a budget from a typical starting salary (not whatever the law school touts as “average” starting salaries, some outliers may skew it unreasonably up).

      Unless they’re really clear about why they want to go into law, I’d encourage them to wait for a few years and revisit their interest then. Don’t do it because you don’t know what else to do. I had 5 years between undegrad and law school and was definitely a lot more focused on what I wanted at that time and am really glad I didn’t go right from undergrad to law school.

      Do they have any debts other than student loan debt? Credit cards? Car note? Personal loans? Pay those off and do not take out more debt beyond school debt. I think the student loan repayment is manageable, but if I had consumer debt as well, I think it would be a struggle.

      I enjoy being a lawyer and am glad I went to law school, but the debt is no joke.

    4. Sue No-Name*

      Maybe talk about realistic after-tax pay as compared to debt load. Taking on >$30K in debt (10-year repayment being standard) when you expect to be taking home $60K/year doesn’t sound like a lot but comparing to after-tax income makes a big difference. And yes, students likely have intellectual knowledge of taxes but not likely a visceral understanding of the difference between pre- and post-tax income levels.

      1. Sue No-Name*

        Unless these are non-traditional students with significant work experience already–in which case, they don’t need unsolicited advice about handling their money.

    5. Kj*

      I have that concern in my field- most people in my field take on heavy debt to go to grad school, then can’t pay it off. Most have dreams of working for a non-profit for the 10 years it takes to get it written off, but few last that long. It is really depressing. I’m always super-real with them, let them know the realities of non-profit work (grime) and the competitiveness of independent practice, if you don’t have a good speciality. I have a good speciality and I’m successful, but I make it clear to them that unless you choose wisely, are lucky and are good, you won’t have an easy time of it. I came out of grad school with no debt due to luck and I’m not sure I would have gone to the school I did without knowing I could do it debt-free.

    6. K, Esq.*

      Make a table. Show the average loan amount at 3 schools with 3 different pricing levels, input the average interest rate, the average payback period, then the monthly payment. You can also include a column for average public interest law salary, a big law salary, etc. Telling a student they will owe money doesn’t go far. Showing a student they will owe $3k/month for 30 years makes an impact.

    7. HigherEd on Toast*

      I think other people have given good advice in that it helps if the undergrads are focused and, if they’re asking you questions, you have a good enough relationship with them to ask them back, “So what do you want to go to law school for?”

      I’m an English professor and have mentored soooo many students who thought “I’d like to be a professor!” because of things like “summers off” and “flexible schedule.” It turned out that they didn’t know a lot about very basic realities- not only student debt, but that in English graduate school, you’re going to be studying literature or language or composition and rhetoric or how to teach English to ESL speakers (or some related field) and doing some serious writing about it, not just studying how to drift around the halls of an Ivy League and look wistful while perhaps writing a bit of poetry now and then. I asked one student what he wanted to do, expecting literature since he was good at it, and got, “I like to think.” Which, in the end, turned out to not to translate to thinking about literature and he decided not to go to grad school.

      Finding out how much they already know has always helped me a lot.

    9. Optimistic Prime*

      For grad/professional school I give them straightforward but neutral advice, often doing the math with them and laying out the numbers but let them know that I’ll be non-judgmental about whatever they choose. I tend to memorize averages in terms of cost and loan debt. For example, with law school, I know that lawyer salaries tend to have a bimodal distribution – the average salary of $140-$170K for the relatively small number of BigLaw lawyers who go to top schools and work 80-hour weeks, and the $60-80K salaries for the much larger number of lawyers who go everywhere else and/or find most of the other jobs. (When giving such counsel on the Internet, I provide the citations).

      With high school students I tend to be a bit more directional/negative since they often don’t know how much things cost or what it means to be $100K in debt from undergrad, but with college students/young adults hoping to go to grad school, I’m much more neutral – both because I think it’s a personal decision and because being super negative tends to make them just want to do it more to Prove Me Wrong.

  33. LaborLaw*

    Having a newborn and in law school – can it be done?
    For reference, I’m having my first child in mid-February (pretty much in the middle of the spring term). I have the opportunity to either take medical leave for the entire semester, or take two online classes. I just don’t know what to expect from a newborn, or what I’ll be capable of post-partum. BUT the advantage of taking a few classes means I could finish my degree slightly earlier. Any advice from new parents or graduate students?

    1. Wolfman's Sister*

      LOVE the user name.
      It can be done. I’ve seen about 5 people in the course of 15 years graduate under those conditions :) It won’t be easy, but it would be do-able. Every baby is different and not every baby comes on time. I would say register for Spring and re-evaluate your decision in January :)
      If your school has a nursing mother room, take advantage of that.
      Graduating with your cohort is always a plus, so the spring semester online courses sound promising. Or are there any 1 credit classes that are offered for the first half of the semester (legal research & writing, maybe?), take advantage of those.
      Talk to student affairs and see what other possibilities exist. Or see if they can put you in touch with an alum that went through this and is willing to share hints/tips.
      Good luck! and Congratulations!

    3. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t do it. Since you’re graded on a curve, you’re going to be competing with people who aren’t sleep-deprived with a newborn.

    4. Haley*

      I have not had a child yet, so I can’t speak to that, but I know that there were a few girls in my law school who had a baby during law school – one of them took a semester off and seems to be doing just fine! The only advice I wanted to share is to go to a Dean/Dean of Students/favorite professor/other administrator you find trustworthy or are close with and ask them about the situation – at my school apparently they were really helpful in giving advice to the student having a child. That’s up to you though depending on your view of the administrators and professors at your school.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I had a baby during engineering undergrad. He was born in September. This was in the 90s, before online classes. I took that semester off. I went back part-time in the spring term. I was successful, but I took some of the easier courses I needed that semester. The challenge was that I had daycare for my school days, but on the days I was home and doing homework, I couldn’t get anything done. He was too active. My husband worked ~70 hrs & 7 days a week then, so I didn’t relief to do homework. It may have been easier when he was a newborn, because they sleep a lot, but you don’t know if yours will be a “good” baby or a demanding one.

      I went back super full-time when he was one. I had full-time daycare, so even though my husband worked a lot and I had harder classes, it was very manageable.

      The deciding factor for me would be how much support you’ll have from a spouse/partner or childcare provider.

      Also, just another data point, my cousin had a baby right before med school and a second right before her internship. These things can be done, but it’s just not fun.

    6. K, Esq.*

      I wouldn’t. Law school moves so quickly and covers so much material that if you’re off your game for 3 weeks recovering, it would be really hard to catch up. I’d take an internship to go from the end of classes in December until your due date so you have practical experience.

    7. Guacamole Bob*

      I had my twins while I was a grad student – I ended up withdrawing from a couple of classes the semester before they were due because I got put on bed rest, and there was no way I could have done anything academic when they were newborns. But that was with twins. It was kind of nice that when I went back I was re-taking material that I’d already done parts of the year prior, to ease back into things.

      I’d talk to your school and figure out what will happen with different scenarios, academically and financially. Can you still complete the two online courses if you don’t do any work for three weeks postpartum? What would that likely do to your grades? What are the financial and logistical impacts of withdrawing – do you end up paying to retake the courses later? How much money would that be, exactly?

      The first few months with a newborn are so unpredictable – people react really differently to the hormone fluctuations, some babies are easier than others, some women have postpartum mental health issues, people have different amounts of spousal and family support, etc. Some people have easy births and easy babies and would have no trouble taking classes, and others would have absolutely no ability to think about anything academic, or are in a lot of pain with a difficult physical recovery from the birth.

      Taking the whole semester as leave is the safer choice, probably, but if the downsides of withdrawing aren’t too bad you could just sign up and see how it goes.

    8. Chriama*

      Since this is your first child I say don’t do it. You don’t even know what kind of stressors you’ll be facing because you haven’t done it before. Give yourself some time to acclimate.

    9. A for now*

      1. Does the timing of your graduation affect your articling or job prospects? If so, then use that as a guide, with the caveats below. If it doesn’t have an affect, then take the time off.

      2. If you’re aiming to graduate at a specific time to maximize your access to articling and other jobs, then does your faculty have an administrative support system that you can ask? Here, I have recommend to a student that they should only take the course if they have reasonably strong expectations that they can complete the courses. But I have also explicitly told them that once they start the course, if they (or their child) run into unexpected health problems we will be able to support them. Depending on other factors, that support might mean an extension or a back-dated medical leave to cover the whole semester. (I work in a law school, but in one that’s pretty social justice-y and the support mechanisms support that AND I specifically work with graduate students. I know the JD students are well supported for leaves, but I don’t know if the advice would be different.)

      3. This is all assuming that you’ll be taking less than half of the course load that you would otherwise complete this spring term, that your grades in law school so far are strong, and that these are courses that you have enough experience with (because of the material, instructors, and/or advice from fellow students) to know what to expect.

    10. Specialk9*

      I wouldn’t. I had a baby recently, and it’s really hard. Physically there is more recovery then you expect – healing from birth (esp C-section) but also because your body is going nuts in unexpected ways, with hormones rocketing and milk production (sometimes it’s easy, but for many women it’s a terrible struggle with more bone deep sobbing than you’ve done before, and feelings of utter failure and inadequacy). You are feeding the kid every 2-3 hours, whether formula or breast, which means you will not get uninterrupted sleep for 5 months if formula and you’re lucky (my friend’s kid woke 2-3 times/night till he was almost 2; breastfeeding means you’ll be waking mid night for 1-2 years). My brain was foggy, I was easily in tears, my emotions were unstable, I was beyond exhausted to a surreal dreamscape. I was also utterly consumed with the research about the baby – how to baby proof, zomg is this normal or do I need the ER, is baby meeting development milestones (those made me so anxious), breastfeeding struggles, changing diapers, how do I handle this issue – and then realizing I had to have a plan for raising a kid who’s not a serial killer, and figuring out what books to read.

      And all of that precludes the actual time with baby. Holding baby skin to skin, looking in baby’s eyes and watching them look at you, yawn, react to the world. Stroking their face and hair and marveling at their teeny fingers.

      I think at the end of the day, I’d say that if you’re desperate and need school to make a life for this baby, do it but know it’ll be so hard and you won’t likely get good grades. But if it’s just about delay, take the delay.

  34. Echosparks*

    Has anyone else spent so much time in miserable, dysfunctional workplaces that you’re actually afraid to work somewhere better? I just interviewed for a job that seems to have a great workplace culture, they have very low turnover and people tend to only leave when they retire. It’s in a field I never would have imagined having a chance to work in and so I should be really excited. Instead I find myself hoping that I don’t get the job. I’ve spent the past six years crying at my desk because of the toxic, dysfunctional culture of the place I work at now, yet I’m getting serious “graduation goggles” from the idea of leaving.

    2. nerkie*

      This is me right now. 7 years in family run, toxic, fly by the seat of your pants, work place have left me doubting whether I’m ever going to be able to work in functional workplace ever again. BUT, I’ve started dipping my toes into a new pool with a part time gig working with animals and while it is hard to learn something totally new, it feels WONDERFUL. I feel rejuvenated, even after spending a 10 hour day on my feet running after dogs and cleaning up poo. I’m so happy and can’t wait to leave me current job completely and go full time at the new place.
      Go for it! You can do it and it will be SO worth it!

    3. Amy*

      Yes, just left toxic workplace about a year ago. New workplace and culture are phenomenal. My problem now is that whenever I make even a small, stupid mistake, I fear someone’s going to yell at me or fire me. My new boss is so supportive and kind. It takes some getting used to. Best. Decision. Ever.

      2. DC*

        This. When I left my last toxic workplace, my new one felt great. While it has turned out to have it’s own issues, I still realize regularly how much the old place’s toxicity impacts things here in my reaction to totally normal things, simply because I still expect that OldJob’s toxicity 2 years later.

    4. Queen of the File*

      Yes!! I hope you do get the job and come back to update us about how great you feel in a couple of months. I need the inspiration :)

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Sometimes getting off the crazy train is a very hard thing to do. But eventually you have to jump, or they’ll push you off anyways.

    6. Laurel*

      I think sometimes leaving a toxic workplace can be like leaving an abusive relationship–it’s scary and your emotions are already so ragged that any risk is extra scary. Take the leap! You can do it! Also it’s normal to feel some stuff whenever something ends. It’s okay to feel sad etc. That will pass.

    7. Argh!*

      Check out the benefits. If they cover therapy, go for it! If you have PTSD you can go to counseling.

      I still occasionally have nightmares about LastJob, which tend to come up when bad things happen at ThisJob. ThisJob has gotten so toxic since a new grandboss arrived that I will probably have nightmares about ThisJob too!

    8. Valkyrie*

      YES! I’m finally in a really great workplace after years of dysfunctional ones. The only reason I left my last position was because the office closed, I imagine I would have just stayed there and been miserable for quite a bit longer. This new, and pretty great job, has really taught me that bosses can respect their employees. It DID take me a couple of years to get over the work PTSD, but I’m so much happier now. Good luck!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      All is not lost here, you have enough left of you to:
      1) know you should leave
      2) write a resume and cover letter
      3) go on an interview
      4) actually remember what was said at the interview.

      You are doing pretty good all things considered. Just have the nerve/sheer audacity to keep following up. Tell yourself on a different day, you will say, “Oh I am SO GLAD I just keep going. gosh that was hard, but I just. kept. trying. And now life is better.”

      You can have a bunch of accountability partners and advocates here. Let us know how you are doing.

    10. Specialk9*

      Oh gosh, I’ve had that with every job, whether functional or dys! Human beings have strong evolutionary instincts for avoiding change – useful for avoiding mastadons or falling through unfamiliar ice fields – but not as useful for cognitive areas. You’re SO NORMAL. But you need to do this anyway, even though it’s scary.

      I have struggled hard with anxiety in my life, and have found some coping strategies that work for me. (Singing loudly to blasting music, chamomile tea, talking to trusted friends, exercise especially swimming and yoga, and eating chips unfortunately :D ) Think through yours and make them happen, even if you have to put phone reminders.

      Another strategy I use to short-circuit my brain’s last minute panic is to do the research I can do, but kind of put on blinders to the big stuff. So research commute, job, dress code, and red flags, but don’t let myself think too hard about the scary stuff (new city, new field, new company, ack!). I mentally kind of tell myself “oh yeah, yeah, we’ll definitely get time to talk about that, just not right now. Let’s just get through this task and then we’ll totally get to those concerns”, until I’m already committed and immersed in the new situation, and by then my fears are usually shown to be overblown. It’s a lot of work, but hamster-in-wheel brains have to find ways to handle it.

  35. Overeducated*

    I am so full of nerves right now. I said I was interested in an informal offer for a good-next-step job last week, which would mean leaving my current contract 8 months early, but I am waiting for a formal offer that is being delayed by bureaucracy so I can’t give notice yet. I expect it next week provided the job can indeed be filled.

    Meanwhile, my husband is interviewing for a more permanent, possibly better job in another city TODAY. It would start right around when my current contract ends, so it would be best to stay put if he gets an offer rather than jumping into and out of a new job so fast (and potentially burning bridges in my large national org with a branch in the other city).

    So please wish him luck for an unusually speedy decision. Any advice on how to alert the hiring committee to the time sensitivity, either in or after the interview, would be welcome…though if they have other out of town interviewees in the next couple weeks we’re kind of SOL here.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Good luck to both of you.

      I used a rule of thumb with our jobs that went only one person move jobs at any given time. If one was job hunting the other would stand pat. This works well if each partner keeps working at changing jobs. It does not work well if one partner decides to stop looking for a while and fails to inform the other partner. sigh.

      Since you only have 8 months left and also because of your nerves being rattled, I am thinking that staying put is the best choice given your setting. You are totally correct, both partners changing jobs at the same time is very, very, nerve wracking.

    2. Specialk9*

      It sounds like you figure that if your husband gets a job and you get a job, his wins. There are likely good reasons you haven’t mentioned, but I’ve also known women who think that a man’s job is inherently more important. So raising that question – are there good reasons to abandon your new job for his new job, or should you have a hard discussion with him about which is better for your family.

  36. Janine Willcall*

    Evaluations, urgh.

    Last year I got a 4/5 on my employee evaluation, which is fine when you assume that 5/5 is for truly outstanding employees. I mean, I’m good– I’ve received awards and have lots of external proof that I am an outstanding worker. Then I found out that in my company, 33% of employees got 5/5, which is…not accurate relative to me.

    I think that my manager is a bit off the company rating norms– she’s taking ‘outstanding’ at face value, and other managers are inflating scores for their departments. It really doesn’t matter, except it cuts into my bonus, so I absolutely would not like to be dinged again. Is it fair to bring that up in mid-years? I know it’s not grading on a scale or anything, but it sucks to lose out on money when the rest of the company seems to have different expectations.

      1. SansaStark*

        Ugh, same here. Just finished mine and ….ugh, none of it even matters because there are no major raises, even for the people with 5 stars. Why do I even care?

    2. Argh!*

      Same here, and I didn’t get a raise last year because of it. I’m not old enough to retire but I’m old enough to worry about my retirement income. Unfortunately I don’t have the credentials to work for EasyBoss, but I’d transfer in a heartbeat if I could.

    3. Millie M*

      My supervisor refuses to give an “Outstanding” rating. Even though I work my butt off and do miracles on a regular basis. Luckily we switched to a different system of reviews that doesn’t involve scores–it’s basically meets expectations or doesn’t meet expectations.

      Our upper management was talking about doing merit-based raises, but I think they’ve given up on that. Which is good, because I don’t think my supervisor would ever rate me high enough to get a merit-based raise, even though I completely deserve it. We get pitiful little raises anyway (like 2%), and they were talking about giving everyone a 1% raise and then making the other part of the raise merit-based.

  37. Ann O. Nymous*

    My boss often doesn’t tell me when she’s going to be out, or if she’s out unexpectedly, she emails her boss, but doesn’t always tell me. I want to ask her to loop me in when she’s going to be out, but historically she’s gotten defensive when I’ve asked about her whereabouts (not WHERE she is or WHY she’s out specifically, but if I’ve been like “Oh, you’re stepping out? do you know when you’ll be back?” or “Hey, it’s 11:30 am – are you coming in today?”

    She sometimes treats me like I’m being nosy, when I honestly don’t care where she is or how long she’s going to be out — I need to know because many of my tasks depend on her input, and because as the admin person, other people in the office frequently ask me where employees are/if they’re out today, and my boss is frequently someone that people ask about (because a lot of people need her for stuff).

    I guess I don’t really have a question, I know that it’s weird and dysfunctional, but I was hoping I could commiserate with others who have similar issues!

    1. Jadelyn*

      Have you been really specific with her about why you want to know? Like, “It’s none of my business how you spend your time, of course, but people often come to me with questions for you or asking if you’re in or when you’ll be back, and it would be helpful if I were able to give them something more concrete than “I don’t know” when they ask.”

    2. fposte*

      In addition to Jadelyn’s suggestion, you could make it about your communications with other people: “When people ask me if you’re in or when you’ll be back, what would you like me to tell them if I don’t know?”

  38. Wolfman's Brother*

    So I’m an Assistant Director for Technical Teapots. I’m burnt out at my job. I am ok at it, but I liked being a Department Head in the Technical Teapots department better (I can’t ever get my old job back, I took this AD job because the Dept Head job was going away).

    I have been looking at Administrative Assistant jobs in any possible field at my University. Some of my skills certainly transfer – need to stay organized, detail oriented, etc. I held Admin Asst jobs about 20 years ago.

    What would you put in your cover letter to even apply for what looks like a HUGE step down? I don’t want to admit burn out. The Admin role would put me in a more customer focused position, which I want to play up… but beyond that??

    1. Helpful*

      I had a friend just get hired as a University admin. She emphasized in the interview that she knows she was overqualified (when asked), but really wanted to do the work and was excited to do it. She got the job.

  39. New workplace struggles*

    I work at a company that has overall has a female bias in staffing (mainly due to industry, healthcare) but my on my specific team I’m the only woman. I’ve been here 10 months and I’m struggling with getting to know my male co-workers. Part of it seems to me that while it would feel natural to say to one of my female co-workers “hey would you like to get a drink or dinner after work?” it feels odd to say that to any of my male co-workers even when we have similar interests. I’m married and have a kid so with my co-workers who are also married with kids it’s a little easier since I can invite the whole family but my co-workers who are close to my age all seem to be single or are in long distance relationships and it feels weird to invite them to dinner with my family.
    I think part of my struggle is that I was at my previous employer before having kids so I already had the established friendship with co-workers, also there was more travel at my previous employer so getting to know my male co-workers sort of happened naturally, and that all the people on the team I worked on there were married or had long-term partners they lived with and many had kids.
    Any advice for how to get past the it’s ok to ask a female co-worker out but not a male co-worker or how to feel less awkward about developing an acquaintace beyond the office with co-workers who I (and my husband) share interests with?

    1. EmilyAnn*

      Group events. Can’t you 2-3 male-workers and put in e-mail? Also, I’m single and childless and I have no problem being invited to events where kids are present.

    3. AMPG*

      Can you set up a team happy hour? Or grab coffee/lunch with someone on the team to discuss a work project (since you’ll generally have some time for non-work chitchat as part of that)? Also, is socializing outside the office something commonly done at your current company? It may not really be that type of culture. If it is, how do the other team members usually seek each other out? The answer is probably there already.

    4. Lady Kelvin*

      Personally I’d steer clear of “is this a date?” type things like drinks and stick to lunch/coffee because those are so much more acceptable for coworkers to have together. I know coffee and lunch are often dates, but drinks are much more muddy. I also work on an all-male team and so far I have 1. had lunch with my colleagues to get to know them and 2. have them and their families over for dinner. It seems to be working well.

    5. Thlayli*

      You don’t have to go out for dinner to be friends. Go for lunch during he day and Ask about their interests

    6. Student*

      The sad thing is, in many places, you just can’t ask them to drinks or dinner one-on-one to get to know them. You can do that after you get to know them a bit and have a clearly established professional relationship – so it’s clear it’s not a “date” in any way. Otherwise, there is a pretty strong chance they’ll assume, or hope, or brag to other people, that you’re hitting on them – regardless of how you phrase anything or actually behave.

      You can ask them to a business lunch. Or coffee break. Or sit down with them at lunch to chat. Those have strong enough business connotations to keep undesirable interpretations to a minimum.

      You can do water-cooler chat to get to know them. This is the best option, really – low-key and low cost.

      You can do events to get to know them – preferably in groups. Try treating the group to bowling, a ball game (baseball can sometimes be very cheap), a round of drinks at happy hour. You could invite them over to your family dinner – individually if they’re a bit junior, or in a group if they’re more peers.

    7. Artemesia*

      Is it possible to organize lunches with two or three colleagues? I think after hours socializing is often tricky unless you can join an already established happy hour or similar and inviting one male colleague is awkward. But seeing if two guys want to go grab lunch at the new pub down the road or whatever might work.

    8. Specialk9*

      Avoid dinner or bars and go for during working hours – lunch or coffee – and initially invite 2+ people to be super clear it’s group hanging out. Just go ahead and send calendar invites. It feels presumptuous to do, but in my experience it’s usually welcome.

  40. Trout 'Waver*

    I just wanted to mention that I got to write some letters of recommendation this week for a two colleagues looking to go get their PhDs. It’s one of my favorite parts of my job.

  41. AMPG*

    Help me focus at work again! I’m having the hardest time keeping my mind on my work at work (case in point – I have a deadline this afternoon and I’m currently on AAM), and while it hasn’t caused major problems yet, I’m behind on several things and generally not able to be proactive because I’m always focused on the closest deadline. I need some strategies for staying on task. I’ve tried dividing my day up into task-specific chunks, setting a timer for tasks and not allowing myself to look at the Internet until a certain amount of time has passed, setting alarms to remind me to get back on task, and organizing my to-do list any number of ways. I’ve managed to ignore all of my strategies, even though I feel bad about it at the end of the day when I haven’t made any progress.

    If it helps, I think the reasons behind it are a combination of the following:
    1) I like where I work and the people I work with, but am not terribly invested in the mission of the organization (I work for a non-profit), even though it’s very deserving.
    2) I have a fair amount of ambient anxiety (not rising to the level of a clinical diagnosis, though) over the current state of the world.
    3) For a number of reasons (including #2 above) I’m not getting enough sleep, so I’m often tired during the day.

    Any suggestions?

        1. Havarti*

          I’d answer your request for suggestions seriously except I’ve tried all the same things and have had no luck. I feel like I’ve spun out of control to be honest.

          1. AMPG*

            Yeah, I keep trying to tell myself that I’m doing OK, but I’m really not. Just this morning I had to admit that I hadn’t done something my boss thought I had done two weeks ago. It’s not the end of the world that I didn’t do it, but there’s also no reason I shouldn’t have had time to get it done by now if I had more than 3 productive hours in a day. Getting fired from this job would be disastrous, so maybe I should start to use that as my motivation (in reality, I don’t think that would happen because I’ve had some really big successes this year, but the last thing I want is to lose my boss’s respect).

        2. Specialk9*

          I literally burned out my adrenal system over politics induced anxiety and anger. I had to cut myself off of the news, except in the tiniest snippets. That was *hard* and continues to be a challenge!

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I don’t know for you but, for me, making things restrictive and restrained causes my brain to revolt like a three year old and go “NUH-UH! You aren’t the boss of me.”

      So, instead, I use my coping strategy. It has come in handy from the days following my dad’s death, to a really stressful work day, to making it to the dentist after a long absence.

      This is how I cope with everything for [today/this hour/the next five minutes/etc] to be successful all I have to do is X. As long as I do that, I’ve succeeded. If I’m not able to do more than that, the pressure is off! Of course, after you complete X, then you come up with another one. And on and on. The key is to make the first one the bare minimum to be successful. Obviously for work stuff it needs to be more than just turn the computer on.

      1. Queen of the File*

        Yes! These tiny victories have gotten me back on track before. And I’m glad I’m not the only one who has to trick myself into going back to the dentist after an Absence of Shame.

        For a specific example, if I have to write a report about something and my brain refuses to do it, I commit to writing a short paragraph about what I would write in the report if I was actually writing it (like describing the report to someone else). This is often enough to force my mind onto the actual report.

      2. AMPG*

        I do that with a timer – I say, “I MUST work on Task X for a minimum of 20 minutes before I can do anything else.” I can often find my focus in that time well enough not to just stop, and even if it’s torture for that 20 minutes, I’ve made actual progress on the task.

        The problem is restarting the timer once I’ve taken a break. I’m horrible about letting myself read “just one more” article, and then it’s 5:00 and I’ve never gone back to the work.

        Speaking of which, I’ll go restart that timer now.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          Maybe try it without the timer? I’m horrible with that too. It flat out doesn’t work for me.

          I don’t know what, exactly, your job entails. But instead of “work on Task X for 20 minutes” say “For this morning to be successful all I have to do is write three paragraphs in the teapot report” once the three paragraphs are done move on to “Now, for this morning/afternoon/today to be successful all I have to do is file the Llama Grooming receipts.” Etc. It’s tricking your brain into continually pulling the carrot juuuustt a little bit further away.

          1. AMPG*

            Oh, I see what you’re saying. I’ll try that for the rest of this draft report and see how it goes.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

          Have you tried using a pomodoro method timer on your phone or online? There are several out there that will automatically ring when break time is up to remind you to go back to work. I haven’t used one for a while so I can’t recall specific app names but some are customizable as well if the standard 25 minutes of work + 5 minutes break doesn’t work that well for you.

    3. Samiratou*

      How big of a non-profit are we talking about? Do you need to care about the mission or can you focus smaller (eg. on your location, or division or even how your specific work helps whoever it is your org helps)? I work for a gigantic corporation, and whenever we get the surveys asking about how much I care about the “mission” or whatever for GiantCorp I…couldn’t care less. I do care, however, care about my division and, more specifically, learning as much as we can about the teapot consumer so we can help them meet their teapot needs as efficiently as possible (or if they don’t need a teapot right now, recall their experience if they need one in the future), which will translate to more revenue and value to our customers, the teapot makers who pay us to generate business for them. Keeping the focus on the customer goals as well as what sort of things we’re doing that are personally interesting to me help with staving off burnout.

      1. AMPG*

        I’m in management, so most of what I do is big-picture. I do believe in what we do and think we do it well, but it’s not a field I have much experience in or passion for (the field I really love doesn’t exist in this area, and I live here for family reasons). Still, I did a pretty good job of focusing before, say, last November.

    4. DC*

      This might sound weird, but: Stand up.

      I was running into the same things, and was being super un-productive. I realized when I do my coursework, I do it standing up in my kitchen while cooking/watching pots boil, and asked for a standing desk.

      My productivity SKYROCKETED. Something about standing up made my brain go “Ok, let’s get this done,” and it’s been great. Fake it with some reams of paper if you just want to try it out.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Being tired is going to tear down your own self-discipline. It looks like you have tried at-work solutions, why not look at at-home solutions? What will it take for you to get decent rest?
      When I am rested I feel like a different person. I can leap tall buildings, climb Mt. Everest and still have the brain power to handle stuff at work. Rest is that critical.

      Regarding number 2. Yeah. Don’t we all. Maybe you can con yourself by saying, “If we all do our jobs well the world will change and things will calm down. I will start this ball rolling by doing my own job well.”
      Conversely, not doing your job well can cause your anxiety to go up which is not a desirable thing.

    6. Lalaroo*

      I have ADHD, so I have a lot of coping strategies. One thing that absolutely made my MA thesis possible was a program called Vitamin R. It’s only available for Apple products, but I still use it on my iPhone. It’s a program that kind of enhances the Pomodoro technique, where you set a specific time to do something, then give yourself a break. You enter the task, set a time, and get going. Once time’s up, you mark it complete or incomplete, then choose to take a break or keep working if it’s incomplete. If you take a break from an incomplete task, the program prompts you to leave “breadcrumbs” – short phrases or sentences to help you pick up where you left off and get going again once you come back to the task. Knowing that there’s a set end time, and that I’ll get to take a break after that, is really helpful for me.

      Another thing I have is a browser extension called “StayFocusd” for Chrome. I know there are similar ones for other browsers as well. This extension allows you to do things like set time limits for certain sites per day, after which they are blocked, or “go nuclear,” where all sites except those on your whitelist are blocked for the period of time you choose. I have Spotify, our website, my to-do program, and Toggl (a time tracker) on my whitelist, and that’s it.

      Basically, I have to outsource my self-control, haha.

      1. AMPG*

        I’ve thought about Internet-blocking extensions, but thought they would be too difficult to set up. But a time limit for certain sites (like AAM) might really help.

    7. nonegiven*

      I did this years ago and it helped. Quit watching the dang news and the newsy podcasts, radio, websites, etc. Cut way back on all that. Seriously, it will be a relief.

  42. Chriama*

    I’m looking for anyone’s experience with taking a “break” from their careers to do something different. How was it? Were you able to come back from it, or do you feel you did damage. Would you do it again?

    For context: I’m 24 and have been working in the same company for just over 3 years, since I graduated university. I’m in kind of a business analyst role but with a very specialized piece of software. It’s my first professional job. Some organizational changes lately have made me realize I don’t want to be on my team anymore, and I actually don’t particularly like the city I’m in so I thought I might take the opportunity to just start over in a sort of lateral move but hopefully with a less niche software. However, I’ve got a bit of a “once bitten, twice shy” mentality. I was really disillusioned by the changes and some incidents that happened and I kind of never want to work in an office again. I’ve been thinking about teaching English in a foreign country. It would be a significant pay cut but with cheaper living expenses I would still be able to save quite a bit of money. I thought that after taking time off for 1 or 2 years I would re-evaluate my interests and look at either trying to find another similar job or else going back to school to switch careers. I’m planning to leave my current company one way or another in the next year.

    So I’m wondering how employers will see this deviance from the traditional path? I would have 4 years of experience by the time I left my company, but 4 years followed by 2 or 3 years of completely unrelated stuff (and probably not a lot of career progression in those 2-3 recent years) by the time I want to go back. Will they be persuaded by my explanation that I wanted to take the opportunity while I was young and unencumbered to experience a different culture? Or will they see me as either a flight risk or someone too old for entry level work but with too little experience/experience from too far in the past to qualify for more experienced roles?

    1. AMPG*

      Do it! A lot of companies (or at least, the ones you’d probably most like working for) will look favorably on this type of experience, and it can open up a number of career pathways for you. And I’ve never seen anyone think that someone under 30 (which you will still be, by the time you get back) is too old for entry-level work, and if you’re over 30 because you’ve gone back to school in the meantime, that’s a perfect explanation.

    2. Birch*

      Do you have experience teaching? Do you speak another language? Have you lived abroad before? Just a note that pretty much everyone thinks they can teach English in a foreign country by virtue of being a native speaker, but it’s not that simple. I’ve known people who don’t have a realistic idea of what it’s like to move to a foreign country, possibly without a great grasp on the local language and without actual teaching experience, and it’s not fair to the kids to use them as an experiment because you’re sick of your current job. I’m not saying this is what you’re doing, but just to think carefully about whether you’re really qualified to teach or whether a different way to experience a new country might be better. It’s also really difficult and exhausting to move abroad, so factor that stress into the decision. If this idea goes well it could be really great, but it could also make you miserable. That being said, definitely try a change of environment! Good luck!

      2. Chriama*

        I’ve don’t some pretty extensive research into different programs and recruiters and stuff. EFL isn’t the gold mine it was but I think I’m up for it. I also wanted to take the opportunity to see how I feel about teaching as a career so I’m pretty serious about it. I’m more worried about what I might come back to.

    3. MsMorlowe*

      TEFL teaching is great, but I would not count on being able to save a lot of money, even with cheaper living expenses. In Dubai, maybe, but while I know a lot of people who taught English abroad (and did it for a while myself), none of us made a lot of money from it.

      1. Chriama*

        Can you tell me about your experience? Did you go right after university or did you leave a budding career to do it? And what did you come back to? I guess I’m worried that if I go away for a couple years then I won’t be able to pick up where I left off, career-wise. And I don’t know if I necessarily want to be in the same career but I at least want to keep my options open.

        From a finance perspective I think 10k for the year would be doable, and I’m ok right now (no debt, some funds in retirement accts between my tfsa and rrsp) so I wouldn’t be coming back to nothing. It definitely isn’t what I intend to do long term because it’s kind of entry level work, but I would at least have the money to go back to school, or relocate for work if I decided to do that.

    4. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I left the work force for 3 years to run my own business full time. I didn’t have too much of an issue getting another job, but I took a major step back in my career because my competition for higher level jobs were people who hadn’t been out of the industry for years. I’m still struggling to get back to the level I was at before and am currently earning about $20K less than when I was mid-level management back in 2007.

      I don’t regret it because I think it’s a rare chance to be in a circumstance where you can follow your bliss, but it’s been harder than I imagined to regain my previous rung of the ladder of corporate America.

      1. Chriama*

        That’s what I’m worried about. What kind of industry are you in? And do you think it makes a difference if I go for just 1 year as opposed to 2 or 3? Or is any extended time away from the work force likely to cause difficulty.

        1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

          I’m an Account Manager/Data Analyst, so basically corporate level customer/client care. And yes, I think a year is likely to be less worrisome than three years. I’ll admit it was very hard to get used to working on an office environment again after so long 100% managing my own schedule and workload as a small business owner.

      2. Five after Midnight*

        Another vote for being cautious. Any time you take time of from your “primary” career, you risk having a hard time getting back on the track nevermind catching up with your without-a-break peers. I’m struggling with a similar issue because of changing countries even though I didn’t even change the field!

    5. D.W.*

      I taught English in a foreign right after I graduated university in 2012. I taught for 2 years, but the mistake I made in coming back was not having a set plan, and not doing advance planning before my return. As a result, I spent one year trying to find meaningful work (serving at a restaurant in the meantime).

      I didn’t have any teaching experience, and was not wholly prepared, but I did have some knowledge as I’d had other family members teach English in foreign county and gleaned from their experience.

      I’d say do it! You’ll get the hang of it, and if you choose to actually teach and not just recite and repeat, you’ll have a very rewarding experience and gain a ton of transferable skills. Use the time to explore and figure out what you want to do and then start planning and prepping to do that thing *before* you return home. If you don’t do that, you may wind up twiddling your thumbs or find yourself in a dead-end job for awhile. It’s not a vacation, it’s still a job (career for some), but there are plenty of people who use the opportunity to escape “adulting”, responsibility, and live off of the generosity of another country. You’ll find people like that, please don’t be that person.

      1. Chriama*

        What kind of things would you advise I do as advance planning? Do you mean like looking for a new job back home before I return?

        1. D.W.*

          Looking for a job if that’s what you want, if you’re looking at getting into school, research programs and apply (if you want to start as soon as you return). Basically, keep your future in mind, and don’t leave it as an afterthought.

  43. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    Any advice on screening for transparency when interviewing? I’ve come to realize that I’m someone who really values transarency. Obviously I understand that I will not be privy to every single idea/decision/plan – but I’d rather be in an org that at least tries to be upfront and open with their employees about upcoming changes, switching focus/priorities, personnel changes. I’m hoping to screen for this in terms of my direct manager and the org as a whole.

    Any ideas?

    1. Argh!*

      I work in a very opaque organization. If someone were to bring up transparency there would be a LOT of body language that would tell them all they need to know.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I look at is do the answers to various questions make sense with each other.
      For example a company that is expanding should be talking about building or buying a new place, adding employees, etc. Those activities would go along with expanding. So if a company is talking about expanding and there is no activity to match, I would tend to wonder what is up.

      Basically you are looking for things that do not match what they are saying is going on.
      If it is a publicly traded company you might be able to look at the financials. Numbers can tell a story that others may not want to share.

  44. hermit crab*

    I work in the private sector in a field where hiring can take a while but the timing is on, like, a human scale rather than a geologic one. On the other hand, my husband just got a U.S. federal government job offer (yay!) and I wanted to share his hiring timeline story:

    December – applied
    March – phone screens, request for transcripts, etc.
    June – skills test
    August – on-site interviews
    September/October – approval from various hiring committees
    November – official job offer

    So, for anyone who is currently in a similar type of limbo, don’t lose hope! Maybe our story will give you some reassurance.

    1. Sue No-Name*

      This year was also totally weird for fed hiring (the freeze, mysterious timelines for various agencies coming off the freeze). Congrats to him for sticking it out!

    2. Brownie*

      Yup, my U.S. fed job timeline was
      October – Applied
      February – “Are you still interested” phone call and initial screen
      April – On-site interview
      May – Official job offer
      June – Start date

      Coming from the private sector where application to job offer was usually less than 1 month the hiring schedule for the feds really threw me for a loop. Worth the wait though since it’s the best job I’ve had in my life so far.

    3. Been There*

      My husband is a firefighter here was his hiring process…

      2004-applied
      2005-tested
      Later 2005 – interviewed added to list
      2006- interview again
      2006-6 months later hired

      This is the standard timeline for professional firefighters

    4. Struck by Lightning*

      I agree with Sue…this has been (and continues to be) an absolutely crazy year for federal agencies to hire.

      In my two decades as a fed, I’ve worked at 3 Agencies in one Department. I’ve been on a lot of hiring panels in those years so am pretty familiar with typical timelines. Historically it went something like:

      -HR takes 2-3 weeks to process applications and forward the hiring cert to the selecting official
      -Official puts together hiring panel, selects who they want to (or are forced to by preference rules) interview, and conducts initial interviews within 2-4 weeks of receiving cert. Goal is typically 2 weeks, but with big pools or during the crazy season it can take 4.
      -Another week or two to check references
      -A week to get next-level-up manager to okay preferred candidate
      -A week to 3 weeks to get HR’s go ahead to make them an offer (depends on office; some make tentative offers before getting HR’s go ahead)
      -Several weeks to process paperwork
      -If it is a paid relocation, there is a minimum of 45 days before they are allowed to start but 60 is more common

      THIS year… We had hiring freezes. Once those hiring freezes lifted, the poor HR offices had a massive, massive backlog to try to push through. We have Secretaries of several Departments who rather than being advocates of those Departments have the openly stated goal of downsizing them by 30%+ and/or eliminating them entirely. Many (most?) Agencies STILL don’t have appointed directors and while the Acting Directors may in fact be far more competent than anyone likely to be appointed, they are technically place-holders and limited in their decision making. No one has a clue what our budgets are going to be but the vast majority of managers want to protect their currently hired people above all else…administrations come & go but once good employees are gone to private, they don’t usually come back.

      I’m proud of who I work for and I hope your husband loves his new job!

  45. beanie beans*

    Yesterday ruined me. I can’t seem to say or type “reach out” now without my brain yelling at me.

  46. DC*

    WHEW FRIENDS IT HAS BEEN A WEEK and I need help.

    I have no idea how to handle the on-going issues in my office, and would appreciate any and all advice.

    -an over-worked, overwhelmed coworker who has had two crying breakdowns in the last week, took it out on an admin/myself, and is clearly burned out. (one of my biggest issues. Coworker is extremely sensitive to everything right now, and I’m really struggling to talk to her)

    -a director who is not around to handle these issues/doesn’t manage when she is here.

    In addition to the things I have mentioned in the past, mainly:
    -I “manage” my boss’s family member, because Boss hired her and placed her under me for appearances. This is starting to cause problems in workflow and my own productivity. This week it also caused an issue when she tried to supercede what I had asked of my other direct report and then said “You’re not her manager.” leading to a long conversation where I exercised a lot of AAM-learning in essentially say: No, I am, and here’s why it caused problems that you tried to supercede what I’d said to someone who was on day number two and completely confused her. Please come talk to me before you change things for her next time.

    Mostly, I’m fed up, freaking out, managing up CONSTANTLY, and have no idea what to do.

    1. Lora*

      I wish I knew what to tell you. All I got is virtual margaritas and a “wow that sucks so hard.”

      I’ve never sorted out anything but the crying colleague. I made sure my desk was well stocked with tissues and pretended to be deaf when she took it out on me. Just kinda let her tantrum run its course and congratulated the other employees publicly “for handling a difficult situation so gracefully”.

      I generally take the approach that if management refuses to give me any guidance I’ll use my best judgment and assume that at some point in the future I’ll be called on the carpet to explain. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. When it doesn’t it’s because the useless director is upset and felt I should have covered for them and said it was all my fault, instead of saying, “we didn’t have any specific guidance, so here was my thought process, and I totally own that decision.” What useless director wanted me to say that I personally had betrayed their instructions which I was only just hearing about. That happens depressingly often, really…

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It might be new job time.
      It sounds like you have become a babysitter for this person.

      With the crying thing, you could tell her to go to the restroom and collect her thoughts. Once she is calmer she can come back and talk to you. Explain to her that crying is really not appropriate on the job except for extreme, extreme circumstances.
      Key part is tone of voice, you keep emotion out of your voice. Keep your voice calm and instructive as in “here is what we are going to do”.

      Can you email your boss? That might be away to say, “Here is what is going on here today.”

      1. DC*

        Thanks, both of you. Unfortunately, my boss is in the (unsoundproofed) office over, and very aware. The tissues and “hey let’s talk when you’re calmer” can help- as does the reminder to keep my voice super devoid of emotion.

        I have recently considered talking to Grandboss about my problems-unfortunately, Grandboss is also BigBoss, so I’m not sure the best way to do so.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Big Boss, I need to say something. I am concerned that keeping Crier employed here may not be in her best interests. She is not thriving here, Big Boss, matter of fact going from one day to the next seems to be exceedingly difficult for her.

  47. Ayla K*

    The good news: I’m anticipating an offer letter for a new job that will give me a higher pay, more exciting projects, and more opportunities to learn. Yay!
    The concern: Because I’m HR, if/when I give notice, I might be walked out immediately due to security reasons or whatever. I’m an hourly employee at my current job, so would that mean I wouldn’t get paid for the rest of the two-week notice period?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Not sure about pay. But if you are concerned about being walked out, can you start discreetly taking some things home each night, or even just putting them in a box in your car, so you could get them if needed, etc. Also for forwarding/photo-copying/scanning any paperwork, etc. you might need and not have access to.

      Best of luck – hope you get the offer!

      1. Ayla K*

        As soon as I get the offer letter and know I’m going to sign it, I’m going to start taking some small things home. And I’m already working on making sure I have the paperwork and information I need (logs of projects I’ve done with details and dates, etc.) Thank you!

    2. Turtlewings*

      Have you seen/heard of other people being walked out? If you don’t have any specific reason to fear that happening, I would be really hesitant not to offer the 2 weeks’ notice. As Alison has said before, though, if an employer has already shown you that you can’t depend on them honoring your notice, there goes your obligation to give any. You can announce your last day on your last day, or maybe split the difference and try for a one-week notice.

      I think it is possible that, if they have a policy of not letting you work your notice, they’ll still pay you for it. That would be the reasonable compromise between security and not being a jerk. But I would be so, so hesitant to count on it. Maybe you can find something in the employee handbook about it?

      1. Ayla K*

        We had massive layoffs in January (part of the reason I’ve been looking) but other than that, no – people have all worked out their notice periods. I just don’t know if it’ll be different since I’m in HR. I have no concerns about giving a typical 2 weeks notice or being treated anything but fairly; my managers and supervisors all really like me and recognize that I do good work. My ONLY concern is the possibility of not getting paid, but I’m sure I could talk that out with them. Good call on looking at the employee handbook – I’ll give that a read today. Thank you!

    3. Ayla K*

      UPDATE!!! I got the job offer and all looks good and I’m fully planning to accept on Monday BUT I’m not eligible for health benefits until January 1st. Meaning I would not be covered for the month of December. I’m lucky enough to be able to plan a lot of my doctor’s appointments around that, but is that normal? Should I try to find short-term coverage?

      1. Nearly a Fed*

        Do you have coverage under your current employer? If you do, I’ve typically seen departing employees get a one month bridge on their health care coverage based either on your last day of the last pay period for which you worked, or your last day.

        1. Ayla K*

          I do, and I’ll ask about that when I give notice. (You’d think I’d know this, being in HR!)

      2. nonegiven*

        You can say you want COBRA and then wait for, I think 60 days, to pay for it if something happens.

        Coverage gaps which total less than three months in a calendar year will not trigger a penalty.

      3. Artemesia*

        You can probably get Cobra as a bridge. And you don’t have to pay for Cobra for the first 60 days so if nothing happens then you are good. If something does happen then you pay the Cobra and you are covered for that 60 days. (obviously get good advice on this, but this is what we did when I retired in August and my husband’s social security didn’t kick in till November. We were traveling and I bought travel insurance for him for emergency care during that time and we signed him up for Cobra which we never had to pay for.

        NEVER let there be a gap like this. If you have to , buy a short term policy. I know of someone who quit a job where I worked in June and was starting a similar job in the fall and was diagnosed with a brain tumor that summer and could not take the job and was uninsurable. It was a catastrophe. Health care is infinitely expensive and going without for a month could ruin you financially. (we have a friend getting chemo right now; the bill is 18 K per treatment most of which is covered by his insurance but he is still on the hook for hundreds.)

        1. Specialk9*

          I didn’t get 2 months free. I quit one week and started the next, but had to get several months of COBRA anyway. It turned out to add a while year’s extra insurance payments in 3 months!!

      4. Specialk9*

        It stinks but yeah pretty normal. COBRA is freaking godawful expensive, just a heads up. $650-$800 per month instead of $150 per month in my case.

    4. Five after Midnight*

      In the US with at-will employment, if you get walked out that’s you last day on the job, and since you don’t work after that you don’t get paid (regardless of whether you are hourly or salaried). When you give your notice, you give your notice; the two weeks run-off is a professional courtesy and employer is not under an obligation to accept it. But if you end up in those circumstances you could ask the NewJob to start earlier which could cut your unemployment period to a week. Though unlikely, they may even let you start immediately if they are organized and able to accommodate your request.

  48. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Need advice!!!!

    My job search is heating up. I had a phone interview yesterday, and I have an in person interview Monday morning 8am (different companies). Question though – I will be getting to work about 3 hours late on Monday. I’m thinking of taking the morning as PTO, but how do I word this to my mgr today?

    I’m thinking something like “I’ve got some urgent errands I need to take care of, and I need business hours to do so. I’m going to take a couple hours PTO Monday morning, and will come into the office once everything’s done. I can juggle my work without any problems to do this.” Suggestions?

    1. selina kyle*

      Errands to run is always good for an excuse – however, if it’s the sort of work place where you don’t feel the need to specify, then I would say just don’t specify! It’s not really any of their business, though I know many places don’t really honor that.
      There’s also the vague “I had some running around I needed to do”, which can work.

    2. AMPG*

      “I have an appointment Monday morning that I couldn’t schedule at any other time, so I’ll need to take PTO. I expect to be in by X:00 and have arranged my work assignments to accommodate being out.”

    3. Samiratou*

      I agree with the advice not to specify if you don’t have to, and definitely don’t be any more wordy than you normally would for a time off request. If your company is like mine, I’d just submit the PTO request in the system and send the Outlook OOO form to the usual people without explanation, but if you do need to communicate it via email or something, I’d go with “I need to take a few hours in the morning on Monday but will be in by noon.” and let it go at that.

    4. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

      I would say something to the effect of “Hey, I have an appointment Monday morning and will be in late, but I plan on working late to make up the time.”

      You’re telling the truth, because you do have an appointment with the company you’re interviewing at, but your boss will probably assume it’s a doctor’s appointment.

    5. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Well, I put in my request and it’s been approved. As expected, reason had to be provided, and I used a vague dr appt.

      Prep for interview will be this weekend, don’t know much about the company. But I will learn.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        A vague doctor’s appointment is always good. Especially, “This was the only time they could fit me in.” You shouldn’t have to do this, of course. Good luck!

  49. NaoNao*

    Layoffs!
    15% or so of my 1100 person company wide team (we’re a huge global company) is being “surplussed” in early Feb of next year. The process is pretty humane; lots of notice, help finding another job within the company, option to leave with severance or take early retirement, etc.
    I’m not on the chopping block, but this company does reorgs and layoffs very regularly–shedding thousands almost every year and then slowly adding maybe 1/5 of that back over the next two. It’s just how they do business. Add to that we were really affected by the natural disasters and we’re in a declining industry (at least one of our many products is).
    Even though I’m “safe” I’m considering amping up my job search. I’m relatively happy in my job and up until now it was “only leave for an amazing opportunity” type deal.
    Anyone else feel layoffs in their larger department are a sign to start looking? Or am I being a bit too nervous?

    1. Ayla K*

      I think it depends on the company/industry. If it’s pretty regular, then I’d personally start to feel like it’s only a matter of time before I’m up. My company had big layoffs in January and it wasn’t handled well at ALL; I started looking two months later. If I were in your shoes, I’d start looking, but it sounds like you can afford to be picky and make sure you land somewhere that’s in line with what you want. Even if it does take a while and you end up on that list, it’s nice that the company will give you plenty of notice and help you find something else.

    3. Specialk9*

      I am in your shoes and very anxious. I have some good reasons to stick it out, but am networking like crazy. Attending conferences, public speaking, writing articles…

  50. i'm ridiculous*

    I know there’s a million different reasons behind not getting a second interview, but I’m so confused right now. I applied to an internship at a Big Entertainment Company (internships are often seen as stepping stones into the BEC). Rumor has it they like to staff the internships with over-qualified people and, as I have 6+ years of experience in the field, I decided to apply to an internship. I had a phone screen that went well and, after 3 weeks of no response, I sent a polite follow-up email reiterating my interest and asking about the timeline. I received a short response from the recruiter last week and now I’ve learned they’re extending second interviews. I haven’t received one, but a current undergraduate student with no work experience has one today.

    As I said, I know there are a million reasons behind why I wouldn’t move forward (heck, maybe I’ll get a phone interview offer today!), but my ego is still so very bruised. And I am sad. :(

    1. NaoNao*

      Maybe 6 years is just too much for them? I can also see them being concerned if it’s not a paying internship, that “where’s the money going to come from” if you go from a full time job to an internship.

      1. i'm ridiculous*

        I was hoping that might be the case, but since the rumor is that they prefer to staff intern positions with people who are “over-qualified” I wasn’t sure. It’s just so frustrating. It’s a double-edged sword: the company likes to promote from within, but that makes it incredibly difficult for people who didn’t start at the company to break into it. Also, it doesn’t help that I found the undergrad student’s online portfolio and it’s riddled with typos.

        If I’m honest, I do think the internship is a bit… junior for me. I think I would become bored with the position. At the same time, I would have loved the opportunity to take on the role because I’m so desperate to get my foot in the door!

  51. Talia*

    It is inappropriate to ask the person at the desk (any desk, in any industry) if she has a husband. (Yes, this really happened.)

    Anyone else in public-facing positions have stories of bizarrely inappropriate questions they’ve been asked?

    3. Turtlewings*

      I had a customer ask if I was pregnant. I wasn’t. (I blame the empire-waist shirt I was wearing that day. Well, that and the fatness. I don’t think I ever wore that shirt to work again!) Why does anyone ever think this is okay to ask someone?

      1. No Name Yet*

        Relatedly, I had a patient tell me I looked great after losing my baby weight….but I’d never been pregnant.

      2. Effie, who is fine*

        I was helping a student pick out dance shoes at my studio and she asked me out of the blue, “when are you due?” I was wearing a form-fitting tank top and I guess I was bloated from the exercise? I said “due for what?” And she stuttered “I’m sorry, you look just like my friend, who is pregnant, who is thinner than you…”

      3. Half-Caf Latte*

        I have not hired a candidate for asking me when I was due (wasn’t pregnant, was overweight).

        She was otherwise qualified and apart from that comment interviewed well, but I couldn’t get past the lack of judgement/filter that she showed. I was envisioning too many scenarios wherein she would again say something wildly out of line, and I’d take the heat for it.

    4. selina kyle*

      I’ve gotten a few weird ones – one stand-out was when they asked if the woman in my job before me was fired, asked rather hopefully. It was my second week on the job (it was a smaller office, I was obviously new) and I had no idea how to answer/how I would know if she had! I just laughed it off but it was weird.

    5. beanie beans*

      After explaining an Excel process to a coworker, in my normal voice in about the way you’d expect an Excel-based conversation to go, he asked me “Were you a cheerleader?”

      2. Jadelyn*

        …because…cheerleaders are usually really good with Excel…? I don’t get it. Why would he ask that? (aside from, no sense of personal boundaries and all that)

        1. beanie beans*

          That was my reaction also! Rather than answering the question, I asked back, “Where did that come from?” He said, “Oh, I was thinking about how you’re from Texas and Texas is really into football and you must have been a cheerleader.”

          This is why I don’t like helping people. And why I need a new job.

    6. agmat*

      I’ve had some ask if I have children (my job does not involve children). But in the context of what we’re doing it’s usually just been idle chatter while waiting on something, so it’s never really bothered me.

      The only question I am appalled by is asking me on a date. That is completely inappropriate, particularly due to my position (regulation).

    7. NaoNao*

      I mean, in and of itself, no. I guess I can see a case why, as in just making conversation. But if it’s a straight guy asking a woman, it’s likely the first shot across the bow, so to speak!

    8. Overeducated*

      “Are you having twins? You’re huge!” No, just one baby and an awful maternity uniform apparently designed to be big enough for a woman a foot taller than me WITH twins, but thanks for asking, total stranger. I still remember that one!

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      “Do you party a lot? I bet you do.”

      I work at a university and am young enough that I am sometimes mistaken for a student. I always correct people right away: “Actually, I graduated from college a few years ago. I’m a full-time staff member.”

      (For the record, the person who asked me this was 16 years old)

    10. Courtney*

      “Have you ever been kidnapped?”

      This was in response to me greeting a customer and asking if he needed any help.

        1. Courtney*

          Nope, it was retail – but my manager did insist on walking me to my car that night when my shift ended!

          1. Talia*

            I think questions like that are the real reason the closing staff at my workplace gathers in the lobby and walks to the parking lot as a group at closing time.

    11. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I have psoriasis. I’ve had NUMEROUS interactions with the public.

      1.) I’m working in a women’s fashion boutique. Talking, pleasantly, to a customer. I reach to grab something off a shelf. She lunges and grabs my arm. Bellows, loudly for the whole store to hear, “OH MY GOD HONEY, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?”

      2.) I’m working in a family run store that sells food-type product. I walk up and ask if these two customers need help. The woman looks me up and down, sneers, and says she’ll take someone who isn’t contagious.

    12. Julianne*

      Oh my gosh, I saw that happen to a female employee at a store a few days ago! She helped the dude with the self checkout, like you do when people struggle with the self checkout, he asked if she had a husband. She gave him a perplexed look that was priceless.

  52. Grrrr*

    Coworkers.Are.Driving.Me.Crazy!
    Lately they have been “forgetting” when they either ask me to do something or I clear something with them verbally. Then they complain.
    I have resorted to written confirmations via email with obnoxious read receipts.
    Is there anything else I can do to get them to stop forgetting then complaining? This is a new thing for the past couple of months after working harmoniously with these people for years! The stuff they are complaining about is not new stuff, for the most part, it is the same stuff I have been doing for years!

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I had something similar-ish happen earlier in the week. I got reamed out for missing a teapot request. And I KNEW it wasn’t my fault because it had never been sent. Even after I asked, politely. Combed through my emails. The ordering system. Absolutely everything to make sure it hadn’t been missed…he kept insisting and demanded explanations. The email volleying had gone on far too long (and the coworker is a known jerk). So. I was tired. I asked what teapot request number it was. Then, went through, and attached the email for every. Single. Request. As well as screenshot each request because he is NOTORIOUS for not actually looking at attachments.

      Sadly, I have no other advice other than: Paper Trail, Paper Trail, Paper Trail

      1. Grrrr*

        Normally I like these people. Boss told me to do the email thing. Annoying coworkers are, overall, apparently ignoring emails. Although, this may just be a quirk of how our internal read receipts works (you have to click off a message onto another for the first to be marker “read”). I’m just waiting for the next complaint so I can drag out an email and see how that goes over. My main issue is that I am being grumped at when I didn’t do anything wrong.

          1. Grrrr*

            There is one day per week they aren’t here and I have the place to myself. I have repeatedly asked them not to block certain safety equipment with some carts they use daily. I have been asking this for years! Last week I made “parking spaces” for the carts with tape on the floor. It made me feel much better. Interestingly, carts stayed in spaces all this week.

            1. Red Reader*

              That’s actually recommended in Lean practice – I forget the jargon, but basically the idea is, if you have a clearly delineated place for things, it’s more likely that those things are what will end up in those places.

              1. Grrrr*

                While I agree with the principle, they KNOW they aren’t supposed to block the safety equipment. I think they’re just lazy & have not considered the consequences of me being fired if the fire inspector comes in on a day they’ve blocked the safety equipment and I happen to be at our other location. I have mentioned this exact reason to them, repeatedly, they are just being inconsiderate.

  53. Jadelyn*

    I just need to vent for a minute. I am at the BEC stage with my manager this week. Normally I’m very fond of both her and my grandboss, our VP, but on Wednesday morning they both jumped up my ass about a thing that I had nothing to do with, and when I tried to explain to my manager that she was thinking about the wrong set of people to go to for this and we actually needed to talk to the llama feeding group not the llama grooming group, and I don’t have access to the food bins anyway so I can’t actually take care of this for us, she got super dismissive and short with me about it rather than acknowledging she’d made a mistake about what the process was. Then later that day she asked me to email her a list of every llama saddle I’d ordered back in August, and when I commented that I don’t really remember details that far back she snapped “I’m not asking about your memories, I just want to know what you did” and hung up on me. Which, like…how can I tell you everything I did if I can’t remember the details of it? I did my best to reconstruct with the confirmation emails I could find, but some of the smaller vendors don’t give confirmation emails so I’m sure there were some that got missed in my reconstruction. And while I was digging through the emails looking for everything I could find about those transactions, she stopped in to say “I’m still waiting for that info” and I barely managed to stop myself from snapping “Then leave me the fuck alone while I’m searching for that info and I will send it to you when I fucking have it.”

    Plus a couple of…not cruel, exactly, but tactless and hurtful comments about my appearance yesterday and I’m just at the point where if she talks to me one more time I may say something extremely ill-advised. I have no patience for her right now. Even very normal requests and reminders are getting my hackles up. I’m so glad it’s Friday and I get the weekend to calm down before I have to see her again.

      1. Jadelyn*

        She can be…challenging to work for sometimes, but just in the sense that when she’s focused on something she sometimes gets super fixated and can be demanding about it being done right now in this specific way she wants it done, even when that isn’t the best or even right way to do it. But this week has been like that problem cranked up to 11. Maybe someone’s on her about something and it’s stressing her so it’s rolling downhill.

  54. Juli G.*

    I know there are many, many true horror stories about HR so maybe I won’t get much sympathy but damn, this job is hard and frustrating sometimes. I’m not trying to get you fired or disciplined or anything – I’m trying to prevent that very thing by advising you on this issue while it’s minor! Argh!

    1. Nanc*

      God speed, brave HR warrior. Once more into the breach.

      As someone who worked with a fantastic HR person to solve a category 5 poo storm of a personnel problem, thanks for all you do.

    2. LCL*

      I learned from reading this column that I should be very very thankful I work in a place large enough to have an HR department. And I am thankful.

    3. Jadelyn*

      Fist-bump of commiseration from another HR person. Sometimes you kinda wanna grab the employee by the shoulders, shake them slightly, and say “You can either hear about this now, as a performance discussion, or you can hear about it in a few months when you’re being fired for it. Your choice.”

  55. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Health insurance question here for people who know about things like this. Being self-employed, I get my insurance through the marketplace. As of Jan. 1, they’re no longer offering the plan I had, and the costs for anything similar are more than doubling next year. If I’m going to change plans, I have to do it by Dec. 15 (the marketplace deadline). It would make more sense to just go on my husband’s plan, but their open enrollment period just ended. I know I need a “qualifying event” to switch to his insurance outside of open enrollment. Is the fact that the marketplace will no longer offer my current plan a qualifying event? Or am I stuck with the marketplace plans until his next open enrollment?

    1. Self-employed*

      I don’t think it does count– qualifying events are usually clearly marriage/divorce/new baby, etc. My costs went up 30% each year for the last three years. It’s awful. You could have him shoot an email to HR just to be sure, of course, but I’m doubtful.

    2. Juli G.*

      I know that you can initiate a qualifying life event if spouse has a different open enrollment period through their employer or if spouse loses other coverage. I’m honestly not sure how that translates with the open market but it’s worth it to ask!

      1. Mela*

        Yea this is a question for his company. They’ll be able to give you a direct answer.

        My guess is that if your plan will actually drop you without action on your part, it should qualify. But if you get automatically transferred into some other plan (which I doubt) then it might not count since you’re still covered.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Is the list of ‘qualifying events’ even regulated in non-marketplace plans? I always thought that was negotiated between the company and the insurance provider?

      1. Natalie*

        Yes, that is one the main things HIPAA does! Everyone remembers the privacy part but the P actually stands for Portability.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Do you have a link to the list? I tried to find it the other day for my own situation and everything I found said, “And other life events” at the end rendering it completely useless. I eventually just gave up and asked HR about my particular case.

    5. Kvothe*

      I’m not in the US but a qualifying event in Canada usually means: marriage, death, birth or adoption of a child but it’s usually spelled out by the company insurance policy. Your husband should be able to look up his through his workplace but I think that the plan loss is unlikely to be a qualifying event.

    6. AMPG*

      I would definitely check with his employer – your current plan ending might qualify (if the cost of the plan itself just went up you’d probably be out of luck).

      Also, I don’t know what you have now, but I’ve heard that marketplace costs are really wonky this year, with Silver level plans being the most affected, so you might be able to find a Bronze plan for cheap enough that you can cover your higher deductible through cost savings, or find a Gold plan that’s actually cheaper than some Silver plans.

    7. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I am in this position, or the reverse of it – I am employed at a large state U and husband works for himself. State U charges an insane amount to cover spouses so we have been getting his overage through the marketplace. His insurer eliminated his plan and has substituted something much more costly, but State U open enrollment ended 10/31, and I did not elect coverage for him. I typically dislike working with insurance brokers (some are so pushy) but the new ACA plans are expensive enough that we are going to check out what is available outside the marketplace. He really needs something that is essentially just catastrophic insurance, but in the marketplace, you have to be super young to qualify (I am curious whether this is across the board or whether we can find something). I don’t think your situation is a qualifying life event, unfortunately, but you can always talk to a rep for his insurance to be sure.

        1. LB*

          I haven’t read all the comments so someone may have mentioned this already. My parents are both self-employed and have health insurance through Farm Bureau. You pay a $25 annual membership fee (and don’t have to be a farmer!) and then have access to competitive rates on health, life, home insurance, etc. I have also used Farm Bureau to get short term catastrophic coverage health insurance plans between jobs – this is much cheaper than going on Cobra.

          1. LB*

            Sorry, I think this just might be available in TN and based on their website, they won’t have ACA compliant plans beyond 2017.

      2. Laura*

        Keep in mind that according to the current law, having catastrophic insurance only will necessitate paying a penalty in your taxes. The amount of the penalty may be close to the amount of having just bought better insurance.

    8. KatieKate*

      I was able to get on my work insurance with “losing my current insurance” as a qualifying event. It would really be a questions for his HR, but it may be possible

    9. Jadelyn*

      At my org a spouse losing their insurance coverage – whether through being fired or quitting their job, or whatever other reason – is a qualifying event and their spouse, our employee, would be able to enroll them as employee+spouse even outside of OE.

      I think it may depend on what happens if your plan goes away. If you renew your current plan, what happens on January 1? Does it drop you entirely? Or does it shift you to a different plan?

        1. Jadelyn*

          Oof. In that case, best check with his HR/benefits administrator – since you’re not actually having to lose coverage, just pay way more (which would make you voluntarily prefer to drop that coverage), that’s kind of a grey area.

    10. Red Reader*

      I *believe* that if your plan is being canceled, that counts as a qualifying event for the purposes of him adding you to his insurance. Obviously he wouldn’t be able to make any other benefit changes, but.

    11. LadyKelvin*

      For my job a qualifying event is also one that my husband loses his coverage (which means I lose mine too) and so with a letter from his employer(?) saying that he is no longer covered we can enroll in my insurance outside the enrollment period. Unfortunately for us our enrollment periods are offset by about 4 months, so when we found out that his insurance premium was going to be much higher this year, it was too late to switch to mine. So we’ll pay more until next year when we can switch.

    12. Amy*

      I’m HR and I allow it at my company. To me it falls under- spouse got a new job and their insurance is cheaper. Each company and HR can be different so he’d need to ask his HR.

      3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Just bear in mind (I just switched to my husband’s plan) that often you get enrolled on the first of the month after they get all the paperwork. So if you don’t want a gap of a month, you probably need the paperwork in during December. COBRA is retroactive but switching plans is usually not.

    14. Samiratou*

      Check with his company plan administrator, but at my company (maybe this is universal, not sure) spouse losing coverage counts as a qualifying event. I also looked up how my company’s insurance handles spouses when your spouse is eligible for insurance but it would be super expensive and found we would be able to keep him on my plan (vs him having to take a much more expensive & crappy offering through the temp agency, if he had gotten a contract with them).

      So, there’s hope, but he should start by calling his HR dept or the insurance company.

    15. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      This isn’t exactly the same, but we’ve been anticipating my husband’s insurance to kick me off his plan for a few years due to most companies going to “if your spouse can get it at their employer they must”. His open enrollment period is so weird (they do it in April(?) every THREE years), that I checked with my HR and if I lose my insurance during his open enrollment, it will count as a qualifying event and I can get on my employer’s plan at that time. Definitely a good idea to have him check with his company.

    16. Half-Caf Latte*

      No advice, just tea and sympathy.

      Spouse’s open enrollment is in May, plan year runs with the fiscal year. Mine is in October/November, plan year = calendar year.

      The others’ premiums going up *don’t* qualify as a life event for either employer, so we just have to hope that we’re picking the right plans.

    17. nonegiven*

      Find out if losing your plan is a qualifying event for his emplyer’s plan. He needs to ask his benefits person.

    18. Chaordic One*

      Even when there’s a life-changing event, there are still deadlines. When I was let go from my job at the end of August (a qualifying event), even though I contacted the marketplace as soon as I was let go, I wasn’t eligible for coverage again until October 1. If I had waited until after September 15, I wouldn’t have been eligible for coverage until November 1.

      Furthermore, it was a hassle to gather the supporting paperwork. The letter offering COBRA coverage and the official termination letter did it.

  57. JustaTech*

    Is there a good way to tell your boss that his clothes are really frayed and he should stop wearing them to the office? Or, since we’re not public facing *at all* should I let this one go?
    I’m 98% sure he has the money for some non-frayed Dockers and plaid shirts, so I think it’s just that he hasn’t noticed how, well, noticeable, the wear is.

    I should probably just keep my mouth shut though, right?

    1. Turtlewings*

      Yeah, I can see why you’re itching to say something but I think there is zero benefit to you bringing it up and too many way for it to go badly.

    5. Argh!*

      Yup. Say nothing. He could be sending his disposable income to a disabled relative or Israel or a church or something.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I saw work with my husband was his coworkers reinforced the times he looked good with “Gee, you’re looking sharp today.” He was locked into wearing old clothes that were fine but dated. Seriously dated. Fortunately he lost some weight so that was an excuse for me to say he needed new clothes. Then he decided to keep wearing the old clothes along with the new clothes. SIGH! Enter wonderful coworkers. They complimented him on the days he wore his new clothes. Slowly the old clothes drifted to the back of the closet. After a bit they drifted into the rag bin.

      When he gets it right, say something positive.

  58. GreyjoyGardens*

    I thought I’d ask – what is the role of inborn, you-have-it-or-you-don’t, talent in your field/job? I was reading about the lack of women, African-Americans, and Latinx in many STEM fields, and one thing that seems to promote discrimination in hiring is the belief that you need inborn genius or talent that can’t just be taught. And of course the default “genius” image is “white man” to many people.

    I’m not talking about the arts or sports where you have your Princes, your Mozarts, your Anna Pavlovas, etc. I’m talking about ordinary jobs that most of us do. In your field, do you need to have that “je ne sais quoi” talent or can most people learn and be trained?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d say most of the talent that can’t be taught tends to be around things like charisma or interpersonal stuff (though even that stuff can be taught to a certain extent). Technical skills and procedures tend to be a lot easier to teach regardless of “in-born” talent. Obviously some people still take to things more quickly than others, but I’ve found if folks have a genuine desire to learn and the space to practice, they will learn and do much better than lazy people who have “natural” talent.

    2. cornflower blue*

      In my experience, certain types of writing, particularly persuasive, require an inborn talent. You can learn all the rudiments like grammar and structure, all the lyrical tricks like internal rhyme and meter, but some people just don’t have an ear for a well-turned phrase. I excel at meticulous technical reports, but I would fail HARD at speech-writing.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I agree with this, and the talent can vary with different types of writing. I can write novels but not marketing copy. I have a tin ear when it comes to that stuff.

    3. CheeryO*

      In my specific engineering field (regulatory side of a civil engineering field), the “je ne sais quoi” factor seems to be hands-on/mechanical knowledge and ability. I will never be at the top of this field, because I just do. not. have. an innate sense of how mechanical things work, and I haven’t made much headway in the four years that I’ve been working despite tons of exposure. It’s not really needed, per se, since our work is generally more conceptual/academic, but it helps put things in context and makes it easier to effectively communicate with our regulated community who is entrenched in that side of things 24/7.

      Happily, my employer is really open-minded about hiring – our three most recent hires (myself included) have been women, one of whom is also a minority. The other two fall further on the practical/mechanical/applied side of things than I do, both in their past experience and innate talent, and they are both absolutely fantastic at the job.

    5. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Back when I was a child, the stereotype was “girls are quiet, polite and intelligent, boys are competitive and good at sports”. With a honorable exception, all the clever people I met until I started university were girls, but then I went to a school that was girls-only for most of its existence.
      In my field there are some core skills that are really hard to get, but not impossible. IMO the problem is more on the HR side, that still clings fiercely to old prejudices and fails to react to sexism and sexual harassment. For example, lots of recruiters email me assuming I’m a man (“Dear Mr. Fake old Converse shoes, we have a job opportunity you may find interesting”), like I posted in this thread. The most infuriating example was when an interviewer asked me why I decided to do what I do because “this field is not suitable for women”.

    6. AnonAcademic*

      I am in academia and most of my colleagues have an MD, PhD or both. I think most of them are above average in terms of “intelligence” how it’s usually thought of, but fewer than you might think have genius/savant level talents. More often it’s an above average person who is also really creative, or really personable, or can somehow work 16 hour days without burning out, that rises to the “cream of the crop.” Conversely I’ve worked with smart-on-paper people who were so lacking in people skills, problem solving ability, basic organization, etc. that they effectively cancelled out their intelligence with their weaknesses in other areas. Interestingly I’ve seen all three types succeed AND fail in different environments – a person with a wet blanket personality had a specialized technical skill that got them a niche job, for example. There does seem to be a slightly higher percentage of talented + very smart folks at the most prestigious places, but by that I mean maybe 5-10% of the total workforce instead of 1-3% you’d usually find. I honestly think that motivation, grit, work ethic, etc. are a bigger contributor than raw inborn “talent.” I mean, I have some fancy talents, but I mostly use them to be lazy! I can speed read with good comprehension, for example, but I will often procrastinate reading something and then skim it 10 minutes before a meeting, but still be able to discuss it proficiently. I picked that trick up as an English major…

    7. stitchinthyme*

      Interesting question. I’m a software developer, and there are definitely wildly varying degrees of skill among people with this job. (I’d probably put myself in the middle; I can hold my own, but I’m no rock star.)

      I used to think anyone could learn to code if they had good instruction and were motivated, but as I’ve been at it longer, it’s become apparent that there are some very basic concepts that one must be able to grasp in order to do the job. Logic, for example — pretty much all programming languages have some way of shifting the flow of instructions based on specific conditions: basically, “if (some_condition) do_something else if (some_other_condition) do_different_thing” and so on. That’s a very simple example; some logic can get quite complicated, like with many nested “if”s, “and”s, and “or”s, and I’ve occasionally encountered people who just can’t wrap their brains around it. (Even for me, after 20+ years, I occasionally come across a bit of logic that I have to sit and stare at for a few minutes, or diagram, in order to figure it out.) And if you can’t figure out logic, it’s really hard to become a halfway decent coder.

      Is that inborn talent? I have no idea. Maybe the people who didn’t get it just never had it explained properly.

      1. JulieBulie*

        That kind of thinking also requires discipline and patience. I don’t know if people can develop those qualities , but I know for sure that most people don’t try.

    8. Lora*

      I keep writing replies but the internet keeps eating them. Ugh.

      Short version: in STEM, it’s all about your parents / spouse having enough money to make sure that you can take internships and stuff, and having the connections to do that. There are a few programs with formal placement services, or schools so small that they have undergrads doing grad student things. But you have to know about them and know how to get into them, which generally means that unless you are super lucky you need parents with money.

      The actual trick is knowing how to be logical and validate your data methodically. But this is definitely a skill that can be taught, not genius.

    9. JulieBulie*

      As I have discovered, painfully, this week: the ability to learn quickly is a talent in itself. It might be the biggest talent of all – or maybe I just think so because I’m so frustrated by someone I tried to train this week on a new tool. (Two people, actually, with similar work backgrounds and experience; they’ve worked together for a couple of decades. One of them is excited to learn and is picking it up fast. The other wants to be taught with apples, and only by me, instead of watching the very same excellent e-learning courses I took myself just a few months ago. Er, nope. We can find something else for her to do.)

    10. Ann O.*

      I go so back and forth on this. There are times I think anyone can learn anything with enough encouragement and perseverance, and other times where I think there really are certain fundamental abilities that some people lack.

      I’m in a role where I have to train people on a technical aspect of our publishing system, and some people clearly have more of an aptitude for it than others. I do believe everyone is theoretically capable (it’s not that hard!), but some people don’t have the willingness to try. Although maybe if I were a better trainer, I could get them past that (because again, it’s not really that hard!). My specific role involves debugging work, and I’ve seen that there’s a mindset required for it that not everyone has.

      1. Specialk9*

        Well if “anyone” could learn, then lead poisoning wouldn’t be so devastating. But it does exist, as do other mechanically and biologically based brain injuries. Once you have that on the board, obviously there must be a spectrum from those big high level obvious impairments to subtle inability.

        Then, on a different axis, we have non damage related traits. I’m wired to notice color and shape, and to see problems the way most others don’t, but I cannot turn shapes mentally and get lost comically often (I tell people I’m positive we should turn right, so let’s turn left). I’m brilliant in the right setting, but would crash and burn hard as an engineer, wilderness guide, or architect.

        People have aptitudes, it’s what makes us unique and interesting.

    11. GreyNerdShark*

      late to the party as usual – damn time zones – but… In my experience computing isn’t a natural talent although some people are definitely better than others to start with. It is much more about how you learned the world works.

      If you see things around you as magic, then you won’t be able to do computing well. If you know everything is logical and humans can work it out then you will be fine. You do have to believe you can do it, and some form of good maths/science training is important. Not because you will use it, but because when taught properly it instills a habit of mind. My parents are both escaped physicists and one was a pioneer in biophysics and the other in computing so my sister and I had the right mindset from the start. We both made a living at it for years although not as our first jobs and her two sons are the same. Not because the talent is hereditary but because we were all brought up from the start to think in the right way. So we found it easy and obvious to do because no one in the family thought it was hard or magic, plus everyone had been brought up to think like a scientist.

    12. JulieBulie*

      I’ll add, to my previous comment about being a quick learner, that resourcefulness appears to be another “je ne sais quoi” that separates the superstars from the wannabees. Resourcefulness means looking for value and functionality in non-obvious places. Being able to figure things out, being able to make things work, instead of calling the help desk every time something out of the ordinary happens. Googling for clues instead of interrupting people to help you when you haven’t even tried to find out on your own.

      Learning a scary new software tool? Why not browse through the menus to look for features that are familiar? (Don’t click OK if you’re afraid it will launch the missiles, but you can still look at the options.)

      Some of this is just about having an inquisitive nature. Some of it is a willingness to devise workarounds. But in a field where people are expected to innovate, or at least have an innovative spirit, resourcefulness is an absolute must if you want to get anything done.

  59. Addison*

    So… late last year/earlier this year, I was thinking about leaving my job. My boss didn’t *promise* me, but largely tempted me with, talk of a promotion and a raise, changes in the department that I’d have some say in, etc – it sounded like the opportunity I’d hoped for and decided to stay.

    Well, an employee who has less seniority than me, but who is older and more experienced, got the promotion instead. She’s my new boss now. I’m not bitter toward her at all – she’s great! She deserves it. It just, you know. Kind of sucks for me. I’ve been severely Done with this place for the last few years, and all of the things I was tempted to stay with have fallen through.

    I’ve been looking for another job, but it’s not realistic for me to expect to be outta here any time soon. So I was thinking I might try and negotiate for some incentives during my employee review that’s coming up soon. My Oldboss will be doing my eval, but Newboss will be sitting in as well. Oldboss already knows that I’m disappointed about not getting the promotion and feeling very disheartened and unsure of my future here, so I don’t know how much I’ll talk about that in the presence of Newboss. I don’t want her to feel bad/like I don’t respect her/have a grudge. She’s awesome. But I need to grow, too. I was thinking of asking about work-from-home days. People in my department are the only employees not issued company laptops as a rule, but my office flooded and the desktop computer was destroyed, so I got a laptop and will likely be using it for awhile. I REALLY like the setup with the laptop, actually. Now that I have one, taking my work home with me is humanly possible, and we do have a couple people in my department that had to move out of state and were hired on as work-from-home folks full-time, so it’s not as if it’s unheard of. It’s always been such a Giant No in the past, but I think I can make a pretty good case for it this time around. Any tips on what sort of language to use? I don’t want to sound entitled to a perk, but I’m kinda hurting here. Badly.

    1. WellRed*

      I am actually thinking of asking to work from home 1 day per week since I can’t get promoted or a raise. I actually don’t care about working from home, but a break from driving to the office once a week would be nice. WFH isn’t common here, but we’re flexible on it, more so than in the past. I guess I just wanna say…I need something, anything, to keep me somewhat motivated to stick around.

    2. Mockingjay*

      I would do it the same as any other business request: write a pitch. Do your research: what’s the company policy about telework, if they have one? Describe how you will ensure staff can reach you: set working hours/days, dedicated phone line. Ensure your home equipment (network/router) is robust and secure. Do you need a VPN loaded on your laptop to ensure data security?

      Besides telework, are there other incentives you can ask for in your eval? A lateral transfer to something different? Coursework or certifications for new skills? Ask new boss about goals for next year – what would she like to see you do? She might have an interesting project lined up. Try and stay positive about the change, even as you continue to search. Good luck!

    3. Specialk9*

      They may worry, with good reason, that some employees would take advantage of telework to slack. My ex co-worker actually admitted to having done this in the past (“but of course not now!”), then on telework days would be silent all day and then reply to all the day’s emails at once, at 8 pm. Side-eye.

      So make your case based on being dependable: boss, as you know I’ve proven my ability to work independently with minimal supervision, am honest, and take pride in getting my tasks done quickly and well. I’d like to telework 2 days a week, on Tues & Thurs. (Don’t choose Mon or Fri at first, they seem like angling for a long weekend) This would help increase my efficiency because my hard commute reduces my peak attention, and I can work uninterrupted at home. It would boost my morale and make me feel valued by the company.

      Offer a proactive solution that slackers wouldn’t offer, that famous them be comfortable, e.g. ‘On days I telework I will send you an email at 9 am with my planned work for the day, and will email at 5 pm with status of the day’s work and any decisions/input I need from you.’ That commitment to being upfront will often bridge the willingness gap. In a month, you can ping them on how that’s been working and how they would like to proceed from here.

      https://www.livecareer.com/quintessential/telecommuting-options

  60. Laverne DeFazio*

    I needed a new office chair and since my company only will budget for a certain amount ($100) I spent more (of my own money) and went for the chair I really wanted. My colleagues know this. One of my collegues weighs significantly more than what the chair is rated for and she likes to wait for me at my desk in my chair. She only sits 10 feet away and I do not want to have to buy a new chair. What can I say, if anything? We are friendly and I like her, so I do not want to hurt her feelings.

    1. Turtlewings*

      You might be able to get away with something like “I know I’m weird but it’s a pet peeve of mine for other people to sit in my chair, I’m so sorry it just drives me up the wall, I don’t like people messing with my stuff, you know?” I don’t think there’s any nice way to be any more specific about it. “You’re so heavy I’m afraid you’ll break my chair” is just not a thing you can say, however true it may be.

      1. BRR*

        This was going to be my suggestion. Other thoughts are ask them to email or IM you instead of waiting for you in person so when you get back to your desk you have a second to regroup or finish your last task. Or somehow suggest that they can email you and you’ll pop over when you get back and this way they don’t have to waste time waiting for you.

      2. Haley*

        I completely agree. Under no circumstances is there a way to diplomatically say “hey, you might break my chair.” Make it about personal space and how you’d prefer if someone other than you didn’t sit in your chair.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So basically what you are saying is that your cohort cannot use a company purchased chair????

      I think I would go in and talk to the boss and explain the problem. Tell him that you feel you should not have to tell a cohort not to sit in your chair. Ask him what you and he should do about this.
      Perhaps the company needs to issue a warning that people of a certain weight cannot sit in certain chairs.
      I would say it to the boss just this way, too. Yes, I am getting a little miffed here. It’s a safety issue and I don’t think this is your problem to resolve. Bump it up to your boss.
      BTW. Could your boss sit in this new chair of yours?

      1. Jessi*

        Its not entirely company purchased though…. Laverne DeFazio chipped in some of their own personal money to upgrade the chair, technically its half theirs and I bet the company won’t fork out the full cost to replace the chair if it gets broken

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I see that as a separate issue, with the safety question needing to be resolved first.
          I guess I would launch the conversation like this: “Boss, as you recall the company and I split on the cost of my chair. Well now an unforeseen safety question has come up and I need your inputs. [Explanation] I am not sure how to respond to coworker and keep coworker safe.”

    2. selina kyle*

      By never drinking anything at work ever again? Ha, I have no idea. I can’t fathom the arrogance that coworker must have to continually do that.

    3. Murphy*

      Immediately cease all operations, look them straight in the eye and say “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? THAT IS NOT OK.” And then just wait. Because WHAT THE HELL.

      More practically…keep everything in a bottle with a lid, so it would take them longer to get at it? I have no idea. That is just so inappropriate.

      1. Turtlewings*

        This! The loud call-out, that is. No trace of a smile. No letting her wriggle out of it. Make every bit of a scene. It takes intestinal fortitude, but remember — SHE’S the one acting badly, not you. You’re just pointing it out.

        (Also askjlfk;dksa WHAT.)

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This would be my reaction. I can’t even — I wouldn’t mind if my significant other took a sip of my drink, or my child or whatever, but my coworker? HELL NO.
        One time. Once. That’s all it would take. Because that’s just gross.

        1. Specialk9*

          After she reaches out without asking, takes your drink without permission, unfastens the lid and gulps from your drink after being told to stop… Pour it on her head.

    4. Temperance*

      I would start a campaign to get the monster fired. That’s so disgusting. I can’t even deal with that.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      I…I just…WHAT?

      If this happened to me, very likely the first time I wouldn’t have the presence of mind to come up with the right shutdown. But since it’s a recurring issue, I’d like to think that by the second or third time, I’d be able to look her in the eye and say, “I didn’t say you could have that.” And if she responded with, “Oh, that’s okay,” that I’d be able to say, “No, it isn’t. Don’t ever do that again.”

    6. Yorick*

      The group should get together and tell her “You’ve been drinking out of our drinks without permission and we’re very uncomfortable with that. Don’t do it anymore.” Then if she does it again, say “We told you yesterday that you don’t have permission to drink our drinks! Put it down!”

      1. fposte*

        She doesn’t care if they’re very uncomfortable, though. I’d make it stronger than that. “You’re stealing from us. Stop it immediately or else we have to take this higher.”

    7. WellRed*

      I actually liked Miss Manners advice to just give it to her. Just be kind of obvious about it. “Oh here, since you drank this, I won’t because I don’t want your germs.” “Oh, you must be soo thirsty, here take my drink, since you already drank some of it.” “No really, take it. No problem. I’ll just go without.”

      1. Specialk9*

        She doesn’t have social shame. So of those would work for most people, but not one without shame.

        Go to HR and complain that co-worker regularly steals from people even after being told not to.

    8. Lady Kelvin*

      Start charging the coworker for the drinks. Give them to them after they take them, and then ask them to cover the cost. Don’t stop bugging them about it. Either they will pay up or give up because they are annoyed. Also eww. Who thinks that’s ok?

    9. Drew*

      Very pointedly take the drink and put it in the trash, along with saying, “You are gross and now I can’t finish my drink. Stop doing this.” Or, at the very least, let yourself show the very appropriate annoyance you are feeling. “PUT THAT DOWN. It’s my drink, not yours, and I didn’t offer you any and I don’t want you taking any. This is disgusting and you must stop.”

      Honestly, I would probably blurt out “What the f**k are you doing!?!” but I’m an uncouth sort.

    11. Free Meerkats*

      We broke a fellow sailor of this when I was in the Navy. Had someone who chewed tobacco strategically place his spit cups around the work space. The drink snaffling stopped that day.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Aww. I thought you were going to say someone peed in it. That is the type of story I hear.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Since I have been having teeth issues this one comes to mind: “Gee, the doc said not to share drink with people because of the severity of my tooth infection. I guess I must tell you that you should go see a doc since you did drink out of my bottle.”

      Put vinegar in your water bottle. Empty it out part way first so that it looks like it’s in use.

  62. Fake old Converse shoes*

    For the first time in months, people in my office noticed us! Someone here was gifted several boxes of expensive bombons, so the person in question offered them table by table.
    It’s my first anniversary in my current job, and since I’m really underpaid I’m researching about salaries for my seniority in my area. I know I can’t ask for a 50% raise straight away, but since the estimated inflation rate is about 30% I think an adjustment is the less I can request.
    Also, there are rumors that the client found a replacement for the senior dev that left in August. Could it be? I hope so!

  63. ktbrain*

    Hi all! I have an odd question involving personal branding. I run a small but successful YouTube channel that I enjoy and is successful enough to generate some extra pocket change, but don’t reveal my name for privacy reasons. It would also be stupidly easy to find out where I work, etc., if I were to reveal my name, and I absolutely don’t want that information public.

    I’m also a writer, and would love to join a [completely different] YouTube community to build my writer-brand under my real name, with (obviously) totally different content to suit that community. However, I’m afraid that if I do so, someone from my anonymous channel will inevitably find my writer channel.

    The obvious solution would be to write and vlog under a pen name, but I admit I want to see my real name attached to whatever writing I produce. I’d thought of podcasting, but I really enjoy visual media as a complement to my writing life.

    I think I’ll just have to hold out on doing any sort of YouTube venture until I feel comfortable with the knowledge that my anonymity re: my main channel may eventually be compromised, but I also hate to waste time building a platform out of fear something terrible MIGHT come of it. However, I absolutely don’t want a stalker, or something similarly malicious to come from losing anonymity.

    So. In your opinion, is it better to be safe than sorry, or am I worrying over something that’s very likely nothing?

    1. selina kyle*

      That’s tough! I was going to suggest a pen name, but you brought it up yourself. Have you considered using a pen name that involves like a middle name/nickname? Something that wouldn’t put you on the forefront of Google searches, but still felt “yours”? (Of course, if someone was really determined they could probably still find you – not to alarm, just after reading yesterday’s private investigator post, I’m cautious)

    2. Self-employed*

      You’ve set things up to be mutually exclusive. If you want privacy, use a pen name. You can always “come out” later, but you can’t put that genie back in the bottle.

    3. Specialk9*

      I don’t understand. You run a successful, possibly kinda NSFW YouTube channel anonymously. You want to write under your real name about a different topic. Why on earth would people from the YouTube channel find you in the new venture? How would you get outed?I don’t get the concern.

  64. Overwhelmed*

    Does anybody have any strategies to have remember things at work?

    I am currently working at a big office, with a HUGE flow of daily information everyday in the form of emails, conference notes and lectures, all of which the boss seems to expect me to read, memorise and recall on the spot: “hey Fergus, what strategy did professor Whathisname mention last year during the Shanghai Conference on teapots?”
    And I would totally freeze and let the boss know I am a idiot because I was only paying attention to teacups because I thought my appointed area of research was for that.
    In fact, just today during the meeting, my boss side eyed me and told a speechlessly ashamed me, “Professor Whatshisname made a proposal on teapots glazing trends of 2016. I remembered this, and I didn’t even need to take notes.”
    :-( worst day ever :-(
    Does anybody have any strategies to deal with overwhelming flows of information and remembering things better?

    1. Birdie*

      You may already be doing this, but write everything down! I keep several notebooks from my years at my current admin job with sticky notes on different pages to represent the meeting I was in/the information someone gave me.

      1. selina kyle*

        Seconding writing things down! How rude of your boss to make snide comments about that – people have different ways of keeping track of things, there’s nothing wrong with writing notes. (Or putting notes in your phone/tablet/laptop!)

      2. Yorick*

        But even writing down notes wouldn’t help here. You still wouldn’t remember this off the top of your head.

        Your boss sounds like a jerk. You need advice on dealing with a jerk, not on remembering things better.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You can handle jerks this way: “No, I don’t remember off the top of my head, Boss. But I know I wrote it down in my note book [file on my computer, whatever] if you give me a minute I will look that up for you.”

          I love my boss but she always wants some obscure piece of info. So this is what I tell her. What happens next is I find out that she does not need it that badly, OR she just wanted to know out of curiosity or she thinks I am brilliant to have the foresight to write this obscure info down.

          Change your answer to your boss and you might be surprised what happens.

    2. NewBoss2016*

      I feel your pain. I am bombarded with information constantly, and it is a daily struggle to keep up. I could offer some tips if it were to do with task management, but remembering arcane facts from last years’ meetings is not my forte. My last boss was like this too. She would ask me which vendor we used for a customers Teapot Renovation project last year, and act like I was an idiot for not remembering on the spot. Usually the projects were really 4 or 5 years ago, but she seemed to have a really warped sense of time.

    3. o.b.*

      As someone else who must write everything down so I don’t forget, my advice is to practice saying, “Let me get back to you on that.” That’s not “I don’t know,” that’s “I have this information somewhere but because I do not have the superhuman ability to recall all obscure and detailed information that I have ever encountered, I am going to need a moment to look into your inquiry further.” (And then have that info somewhere, and know where & how to find it.)

  65. Dysfunctional Workplace*

    I am actively looking for a new position as my current workplace is beyond toxic. I am trying to keep positive as I have been the top candidate for two positions, but was rejected. But, it is so so hard. Right now, I just found out that one of my coworkers has been spying on us and reporting back to our toxic Manager. This same coworker declined going full time as she wanted more money, even though she refuses to do the work and has no experience whatsoever. She was allowed to search for a new job as she transitions out and I need tips on how to deal with her.

    I just can’t get over how for a few hundred dollars and an office she threw three of us under the bus. She was already out the door and she still went full ahead. Now we are job searching like crazy as our Manager let it know she wants us gone. I am lucky that I some form of support, but one of my coworkers is a single mother. I think she knows that we know and I am trying to be professional, but I need some tips on how not to lose it.

    And yes, there is so much wrong with this workplace including sketchy practices, but I don’t want to give more identifying details just in case.

    1. Argh!*

      I have been developing a Do-Not-Trust list for about a year as stories get back to my boss and my boss always takes their side. I’m a woman and all but one of the rats have been male, but that’s just coincidence ;-)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What would you do if you were trapped in a burning building, would you think about this idiot CW or would you figure out how to get out of the burning building?
      Serious question and this is what I told myself when faced with a toxic person.
      You can either extract yourself OR extract revenge on her, which one would I prefer? Which one would be best for me in the long run?

      Your CW is a symptom, your boss is the real problem for allowing this situation to exist.

      I like to line up songs in my head. When situations come up at work, I can quietly hum “take this job and shove it” or “kiss this”. This forces me to focus on remembering the lyrics and takes some of my brain space off the severity of the current moment.

  66. Anonymous Educator*

    So apparently some Twitter employee on her (or his) last day of work deactivated a certain prominent person’s account for 11 minutes. Many people cheered the move, because they don’t like this certain prominent person. That got me thinking about all the times people have wanted to quit in a huff, and Alison reminds them to stay professional and let it go and not burn bridges.

    Has anyone ever done a dramatic job quitting… and actually seen it turn out okay?

  67. Admin Amber*

    I am in my office all day except when attending meetings. Anyone is welcome to stop in as needed. The moment I leave my office I get stopped in the hallway and sometimes followed into the bathroom with someone asking me about some ridiculous thing that could have been solved by stopping by or emailing. My solution to this was to be direct and say “if you are coming to use the bathroom great, if you are continuing to follow me to discuss x with me please stop by the office or email me.” Never let anyone infringe upon your time when headed to the bathroom.

    2. Mrs. Fenris*

      People ask me questions as I’m walking into the bathroom at my new job! I’m absolutely floored. My boss has been known to yell through the bathroom door to people, though she hasn’t done it to me yet. I’ve never been anywhere that this was considered OK.

  68. Departments R Us*

    There are some new opportunities coming up, and I’m trying to make sure I don’t get shut out of what I want but also manage myself politically and not close other doors. I’m super honest and not political, so I need help!

    I work in Dept S, and the former assistant manager of S (FAM) left early this year to start brand new Dept W. It is a dept of 1 now, growing to 10 in 2018. Both departments role up under the same senior executive.

    A few months ago, my boss approached me about interest in opening an office for S in another state. I said I had some interest, but it would depend on what the final opportunity looked like (is it an office of 1, or with staff, perm move or weekly fly-in), and he couldn’t tell me that yet. (Others may be competing for this role, too, but he can’t tell me that, either.)

    A few weeks ago, FAM asked me if I had interest in a couple opps in Dept W. I said yes, and did tell her my name was in the hat for the new S office, but that her opportunities actually seemed like better fits and to keep me on her list.

    I also told my manager that FAM had talked to me, and he seemed irritated. I think there is some tension between them because her department is taking off while we’ll have some market pressure on us next year.

    Long story short, I really want Dept W opp #3, but I don’t want to shut myself out of the other things. Is there a way I can keep in front of her on that, but still pursue her other opp and my own department opps? I did offer to help her with “whatever” this week, and she had me help with her business plan, but I again told my manager, and he seemed annoyed. (I was very slow and had previously offered to help him with anything he needed. . .he didn’t respond and she did.)

    I’m worried he may be talking to the Sr. Exec & try to keep me, either locally or push me to the new office, no matter what the job structure looks like.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Have a talk with your boss about your goals and ask him point blank if he will support you? I don’t know your boss and this may not make sense to do. I am picking up on “he seemed annoyed”. I would ask him about that. “You seemed upset the other day when I mentioned these other jobs, Boss. Can we talk about it?”

      Maybe he was just upset that you did not tell him first that you were interested in other jobs.

  69. Amber Rose*

    I had to call in sick yesterday after being good for three months, and this morning I was almost an hour late because of the road. What’s usually a 45 minute drive turned into 2.5 hours, which even with planning ahead I couldn’t have predicted. I left an hour earlier, that should be plenty, but we get three snowflakes and everyone forgets how to not drive like an asshole. The ditches were just full of an unreasonable number of cars. So now I get to spend today wondering if my boss is angry and fielding passive aggressive sulking from my supervisor (eg, call her name to get her attention and get “what” in that tone that usually comes out of teenagers asked to do chores). God, I need out. But I don’t qualify for anything. :(

    Anyways, my quality of work has totally lapsed due to morale issues, so I swore I’d spend the last couple months of the year fixing it, for my own sake. So far I have, at least, caught up on the immediate stuff and the paperwork I haven’t filed since June. It’s a process. -_-

  70. Overwhelmed*

    Does anybody have any strategies to have remember things at work?

    I am currently working at a big office, with a HUGE flow of daily information everyday in the form of emails, conference notes and lectures, all of which the boss seems to expect me to read, memorise and recall on the spot: “hey Fergus, what strategy did professor Whathisname mention last year during the Shanghai Conference on teapots?”
    And I would totally freeze and let the boss know I am a idiot because I was only paying attention to teacups because I thought my appointed area of research was for that.
    In fact, just today during the meeting, my boss side eyed me and told a speechlessly ashamed me, “Professor Whatshisname made a proposal on teapots glazing trends of 2016. I remembered this, and I didn’t even need to take notes.”
    :-( worst day ever :-(
    Does anybody have any strategies to deal with overwhelming flows of information and remembering things better?

    1. CheeryO*

      Ooh, that’s tough. I have the same problem, and I’ve gotten good at telling people, “I don’t remember off the top of my head, but I will check and get back to you in a couple minutes.” They looked at me like I had three heads at first, but they eventually figured out that I almost always have the answer, and it doesn’t matter if it takes me a minute to get there.

      Basically, I try to be as organized as possible. I always take ultra-detailed notes (and go over them later with a highlighter and different colored pens and make sure everything will make sense out-of-context in the future), keep lots of very granular/specific folders for physical files, and keep all of my electronic documents in equally specific folders. I also try to sort emails in Outlook into folders with the Rule function, but I get a ton of emails and generally have better luck just searching my inbox for key words.

      It sounds like your boss might just have unreasonable expectations, but maybe you can train him to not put you on the spot quite so much.

    2. only acting normal*

      Do not be ashamed, your boss is an ass, and other people (smarter than him) will recognise him for being one.
      Anecdote 1:
      I was recently in a meeting with someone showing off like your boss – while he was grandstanding recalling figures and calculating something in his head on the spot, I swear EVERYONE else in the room rolled their eyes (they were his peers and seniors, all smart people capable of doing the same). We were just discussing that a load those type of calcs needed to be done, in a bigger piece of work, it really wasn’t necessary for him to do it then and there, because we weren’t going to use the answer at that moment, and mainly it just slowed the meeting down.

      As for strategies. Don’t focus on remembering everything – that’s what written records are for. Focus on understanding the broader context of the topic, knowing where and how to find the detailed information when you need it, and most importantly knowing *how to use* the information.
      Anecdote 2:
      When I interviewed for a reasonably prestigious UK university many years ago, a professor asked me a particular physics question and I got flustered and said “sorry I can’t remember the equation”. He said “Oh don’t worry about that, neither do I, if I need it I just look it up!” He then prompted me for a more qualitative answer and I aced it. Got an offer reduced from 3 As at A-level to 2 Cs.

  71. Database Geek*

    Another week of job searching – had some more phone interviews but no in person interviews. And more ‘thanks but no thanks’ after the phone interviews… have no heard back from the last place I interviewed with in person so who knows…. I am starting to think I will need to look for at least a part time job in an a different area just for some money in the meantime but I’m probably so over qualified for everything it’s going to be hard to do even that….

    Question: I have LinkedIn Premium which includes access to the learning section. Do those count for anything with potential employers (If I took some bookkeeping/QuickBooks courses for example?) or is there no point because everywhere is going to be asking for multiple years actual real world experience with QuickBooks?

  72. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I am having a bad week. I am the event planner for a program that has had a bunch of things go wrong — some little, some big, some my fault, some not — and I just hate the feeling of disappointing my program partners. For 99% of the issues, I’m sure the attendees don’t even notice. But my program partner definitely does and I can feel his disappointment radiating from him.

    I am starting a new job in a week, so on the one hand I am relieved to not have to face another program with this partner — but on the other, I am bummed that this is the event I’m going out on.

    No question, just getting my Bad Week Blues off my chest.

    1. Effie, who is fine*

      Sorry to hear!
      Tangent – I did marching band in high school and decided to do marching band my last year in college as a kind of celebration and fond farewell to marching band and that season I pulled my shoulder during band camp so I became an alternate, then we had tons and tons of sectional drama they’d never had before. So, it sucks to go out like that and I’m sorry. At least Monday starts a new week! Hope you get to decompress this weekend.

  73. Master Bean Counter*

    What a difference a week makes!
    I got a promotion, to the job I was already doing, but hey, the pay is nicer.
    Also my boss still isn’t doing his job. It feels like I’m managing both him and sports guy, or maybe I’m just the one with the drive to get stuff done.
    Anyway here’s a situation I’d like to get opinions on:
    I have an employee who I found out is over qualified for the position she is in. And she does want to move up. There’s been a department reorganization in the works for months. A new position could open up that would be a good fit for the employee.
    In the mean time a position in our sister company opened up. The employee was encouraged by the person leaving to apply for it. It was offered to my employee, along with a significant pay increase. She was torn, but she ultimately accepted that position. My boss was upset when he found out. Due to politics/budget we couldn’t counter offer her the new position we had in mind for her. And when I talked to the employee her career goals really align with the other position better.
    Fast forward a week. The employee spends her first afternoon working for the sister company, she’s splitting days until the transition is complete. We’ve already shuffled people around to fill holes and have our group reset. Employee finds out what they job really is about and is not happy. She wants to come back. Taking her back would require us to undo positions and changes that we’ve all been waiting for that her exit kicked into action. It would also cause bad blood between us and the sister company, a relationship that is strained most days anyway.
    Would you allow the employee to come back? She is a very competent employee.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If there is already bad blood, I don’t think I would worry about that. It sounds like they are going to have hissy fits no matter what.
      I think that your real problem is that things have changed since she left and you guys need to figure out where she fits into the new picture. This may/may not involve getting her inputs about how she would contribute in the new setting.

  74. paul*

    Why does writing resume’s and cover letters suck so badly?

    I’m trying to come up with a list of “core competencies” and it’s making me depressed. I can list stuff I’ve *done* sure-and some of it’s modestly impressive in our field–but translating it to core abilities or w/e is harder.

    Also, for the love of god, make your job description actually descriptive.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I feel you. And that last bit–I saw this job ad yesterday on Craigslist:

      Need a full time secretary to watch over the office/employees as the sales people and owners travel. Pay is $500 wkly.
      First qualified gets hired. Helpful if you have computer skills and a pleasant attitude.
      Text Fergus 2 444-555-6666
      Leave your name and best time to call

      HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
      No.

    2. Laura*

      Paul, I’m only saying this because you’re specifically talking about writing/ applying for jobs, but don’t use apostrophes for plurals. It’s resumes, not resume’s.

  75. Katie the Fed*

    Office etiquette question!

    I have a new cube neighbor who clears his throat LOUDLY and longly several times a day. You know, a really loud exaggerated thing that sounds like he’s expelling a hairball. I’d say it happens 40-50 times a day.

    I find it absolutely disgusting and annoying. It breaks my concentration and annoys the hell out of me. It got really bad the other day and I asked if he was ok or needed anything, and he just said “oh yeah, sorry about that – I just have this lung thing” and it still happens.

    What do I do? He’s really nice and if he’s powerless to do anything about it I probably can’t say anything else. But it’s SO gross and annoying.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Headphones won’t block it and there’s nothing to listen to anyway.

        Lozenge, maybe? But I’d be offering DOZENS a day.

            1. o.b.*

              You miiiight be able to find solace in a white noise generator *website* that requires no downloads and seems to fit all your other workplace regulations

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yesssss soundtracks. *fist bumps fellow soundtrack lover*
            That’s my music of choice. I love working to ambient music. The Fallout 1 & 2 Vault Archives album is perfect for editing. I wish I could find a job that would let me stream my soundtrack radio station. Instead, I have six million of them on my phone.

            Another great playlist–remove the vocal tracks from the new Blade Runner 2049 album. Bliss.

        3. HannahS*

          I have some sensory issues, and I use noise-canceling earbuds a lot, especially on public transport, airplanes, and while studying or napping in communal spaces. They don’t totally block any sound, but they block out the irritating part of a lot of noises. It’s hard to describe, but they just take the edge off so that I can focus or let my mind wander or sleep without constant interruption. I find it’s a real difference from ear plugs or regular headphones. The ones I have are from Taotronics and I’m thrilled with them.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            Noise canceling headphones aren’t allowed. Just regular ones :/ And the regular ones can’t plug into anything except a computer. And the computers aren’t ones where we can download files.

            1. HannahS*

              Would anyone know, though? These ones just look like regular earbuds with a small box on the wire. They’re pretty discreet. Not that I’m saying you should definitely break the rules, but if you’re desperate you could probably give it a try without anyone being the wiser. And I often–in fact, usually–use them without any music or anything playing on the other end, especially if I’m trying to sleep or study.

              1. Katie the Fed*

                Yes, they are not allowed. I can’t sneak things in that aren’t allowed :)

                But thank you.

            2. AnonAcademic*

              I listen to music on Youtube via headphones plugged into my computer – would that work?

              For the record, grunge is really great at hiding random ambient noise like conversations, coughing, etc. :)

              2. Tabby Baltimore*

                I am in the same boat as Katie the Fed. I have “approved”headphones already, and listen to Accuradio dot com (limited playlist, but, hey, any port in a storm…) when Speakerphone Guy next door gets to be too much.

                Also, if you are affiliated with an institution of higher learning in some way (like you’re alumni, or you’re a current student) you probably have access to the university library catalogue. If so, you can try looking music up in the catalogue (input the song title, or the composer/performer in the author field, and the phrase “electronic resource” as a keyword phrase) and see if the library has an audio link available. Clicking on the audio link–if you have access–should take you to the site where you can select and play the selection(s).

    2. selina kyle*

      Oof, that stinks. If he hasn’t been there long, it could just be seasonal allergies or the aftermath of a cold?

    3. Turtlewings*

      I can definitely see why it drives you nuts, but it does sound like he can’t help it. :( Headphones are the only solution I can think of. You’ll probably start tuning it out faster than you think.

    4. fposte*

      Unfortunately, I think he’s almost certainly powerless to do anything about it and your remedies are to get zen with it or find a more distant cube. Sorry, but imagine how not fun it is to have permanently congested lungs–he has to hear it *and* deal with the breathing side.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah – I feel bad for him. I just didn’t know if it was something he could sort of control – like you know how some people REALLY add voice to their sneezes with a giant “AAACHOOO” when it’s not really a required part of the sneeze.

        I’ll give it a week and see if I start to tune it out. Maybe I can find a new cubicle but it’s doubtful. :/

    5. CheeryO*

      Ugh, my boyfriend does that. It’s partially physical (some combination of asthma and sinus issues, I think) and partially habitual. He’s actually seeing a voice therapist for the habitual part, and I think it’s working because I’ve been hearing him do it less.

      I think it’s fair game to acknowledge it and ask if it’s possible to try to only do it in the bathroom, but I wouldn’t expect any major changes if he’s just accepted that it’s a thing that he needs to do all the time.

    7. Haley*

      I was by a colleague who kept spitting into a garbage and making that disgusting vomit-inducing hocking sound. Fortunately, I was already scheduled to move to a different floor. That would be a situation where you say something, since it’s rude. However, since he has a lung issue it sounds like and actually can’t help it, I would just let it go and try to ignore it as best you can.

      1. Victoria, Please*

        Oh God, my husband occasionally does that (the hocking thing) and I have even had to snarl at him to fcking spit it out before he tries to talk to me! It would make me *nuts* to have that in the office.

    8. Anono-me*

      Musician ear plugs might be helpful. (These are a special type of earplugs that let you hear certain types of sounds and block others.) Your local high end piano and sheet music store should be able to help you.

    9. JulieBulie*

      If you can plug your headphones into your computer and listen to a website, then I VERY HIGHLY recommend this one:

      https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/babbleNoiseGenerator.php

      The Babble Noise Generator is excellent at masking speech, plus it has adjustable settings to improve your odds of blocking different kinds of voices. It is almost certainly your best bet for masking that grody hairball sound as well. (I had a cube neighbor who made horrifying loud sinus noises all day, and it helped with that.)

  76. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    I wrote to Alison with a question related to this that I won’t post here, but for now I just want to celebrate: my fabulous former boss was just hired to head my division at my current organization and I’m SO thrilled! He’s going to be great. Wahoo!

  77. santa reservations*

    I’m a postdoc — currently the only postdoc in my department. I work in the grad student office, and part of my job is interacting with and generally being a slightly older adult in the vicinity of the grad students. I don’t supervise them or have any authority over them, but my salary is roughly twice the standard grad stipend.
    So here’s my question: do you think it would be wrong or weird for me to participate in the office Secret Santa?

    1. Postdoc*

      Are you the only person who works there and is not a grad student? If so then maybe opt out. But if there are other staff that participate I think it isn’t weird.

    2. Elizabeth H.*

      If they invite you to, then yes. If nobody directly invites you or asks “oh, are you participating?” or says something to you that sounds like they assume you are going to participate, then don’t bring it up yourself or ask to join. I don’t think your salary should have any issue in it, it’s more of a camaraderie thing – there’s probably an upper price limit anyway, grad students tend to be pretty financially reasonable.

  78. BrandyTeapot*

    I’m in a job training program for people looking to break into computer programming. It seems they rather over promised, and inflated the number of apprenticeship spots that will be available in our area. There’s likely to be dozens of us gunning for a few spots, and the placement person is cold towards me, so I’m not expecting her to go to bat for me. I’m devastated, because I’m an excellent coder, but a red flag nightmare on paper–I was really counting on the “in” from the apprenticeship program to launch my career path.

    Has anyone broken into programming without a degree or experience? Any tips?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Get involved in an Open Source project, and don’t just write code; also help with the documentation as much as possible. Look for your first Open-Source project as carefully as you would look for a job – they can range from really wonderful learning experiences to totally toxic hellholes. As you get more experience you can work your way into better projects. Eventually you will find a way to get paid.

      If you can tell us what languages/databases/OSes you have learned maybe someone who knows the territory can give you some better advice.

  79. Mela*

    People who work in universities: what are your best/most interesting benefits?

    My husband just applied for a staff job at a university. He’s in tech, so this is new territory for him. He’s not expecting a typically high tech salary, but what type of benefits can he expect? Free tuition, but what else?

    1. jstarr*

      Typically depends on your state and if it’s a public or private University. He will not be paid much. We get paid time off and paid sick leave up to a point. Some have tuition assistance but not free tuition. Insurance is hit or miss. Retirement is also hit or miss

    2. Turtlewings*

      One of the top benefits to working at my university is getting a week off (paid) for Christmas without having to touch PTO. A variety of other small holidays, too — and every other Friday in the summer!

    3. lisalee*

      I get really good, really cheap health insurance since my university operates a hospital system. Universities without medical arms can be the opposite, though. We also can get basic legal services for $10/mo. The retirement plan is very competitive and the university puts in double our personal contribution beginning at one year of service. We get free or cheap exercise classes and public transit and there’s many little staff events through the year. I love the fact that I have unlimited library access and they deliver books to my office.

      Vacation can be hit or miss. At my classification level I get 12 per year, which I feel is pretty stingy, but other classifications get hired in at 24 or even 28 days a year. It’s pretty hard to negotiate this unless you are a higher-up.

      If the tuition reimbursement is important to you, I would check on the restrictions. Where I work the tuition has to be taken out of the department budget, and since I work at a small department, it is unlikely I will ever be able to use it.

      1. Red Reader*

        Or, for tuition, you only get 3 credits a semester and you can’t register until the second week of the term and only if there’s still openings, no wait lists or advance registration. :-P

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a university. We get plenty of insurance options, a generous retirement plan, lots of PTO and sick time, and the tuition benefits are quite good– I’m getting a graduate degree for free!

      Unfortunately I am underpaid, as are most people in my department. The benefits are the only thing that make it doable to work here and be moderately happy about it.

    5. AnotherJill*

      It really depends on private vs. public and if public, which state it is in. For example, tuition reimbursement may not be available until after a period of time or may be available on day one.

      As others have mentioned, probably the best benefit of working in a university is that time off is usually fairly generous and generally you can find some flexibility in hours.

    6. Elizabeth H.*

      Interested to hear other responses because I am staff at a private university and have the greatest benefits of anyone I know (except maybe Google? I don’t know how their health insurance is though, but we don’t get fed here). High quality health insurance (I pay high premiums but feel it’s worth it), access to health assistance services, FSA for health and commuting, subsidizing monthly commuting benefits, very generous sick/personal time/vacation time, access to legal services, homeowner’s or rental or legal insurance, life insurance, and then the million things you have access to as a member of the university community: complete library access without fines, free gym use, university shuttles, online journal access, Microsoft software package download on your personal for free (you get the license while you work here at least), access to all of lynda.com for trainings . . . that’s what I can think of right now. Oh, also you can take a class here for free and earn a degree, and we also have tuition reimbursement for classes or programs at other universities or schools if they show some kind of professional development. Plus they offer professional development workshops and optional training and stuff.

      I know not all universities offer this (at MIT staff apparently has to pay for a gym membership – which is insanely unfair – and faculty did too at the college I went to) but I’m really lucky.
      I don’t feel my salary is especially low, or that my hours are especially flexible. Staff pretty much are expected to work 9-5, but it’s a 35 hour week (unpaid lunch hour). I am salaried, but we typically operate with standard working hours.

      1. lisalee*

        Oh man, I would love a free gym membership. A lot of the universities here do that, but not us for some reason.

    7. Dear liza dear liza*

      Now, this depends on your department and supervisor, but there can be great informal benefits when working for a university. I love being on a campus, surrounded by student and people who are (mostly) about the love of learning. I loved being in college, and I get a lot of the fun parts without the homework. I’ve seen world class authors and speakers for free, I go to theatre productions, they pay me to go to training and conferences, and I can take yoga or step class or meditation for free. We encourage our admin assistant to go to campus events like these, on work time, because they are great for networking, so it’s not just for faculty.

      Dear Henry works in a corporate setting and while he gets paid a lot more, I’m often horrified at how cold and, well, corporate, it can be.

    8. Alex*

      I’m at a public university. The benefits I appreciate most include: up to 3 free classes a year, all federal holidays, a week off in December, no one judges you for actually using your vacation hours (accrual rates vary based on years of service), low pressure, access to the library, access to software for free (Office, Adobe Creative Suite etc.), on campus events (films, museums, networking etc.). Some things that suck: low pay, not much opportunity for promotion or advancement, no 401k matching or anything like that. Allegedly there is a pension plan, but I’m so far from retiring I seriously doubt it will even be available for me.

    9. anonykins*

      I’ll second everyone else – it really depends on the school itself. I get free tuition, my spouse and dependents get free tuition (although there is a longer wait period), almost 7 weeks paid time off (when you count university holidays), access to the on-campus gyms (which are really nice), legal assistance for $10/month, free long-term disability and short-term disability insurance, 9% 401K contributions (not even matching)…there’s even a credit union, although I’m not sure why you’d join as their rates are terrible. The salary is not great, but not the worst. I know for sure it’s different for other schools in the area, though.

      One thing I do dislike – it’s a religious university that objects to the birth control mandate of the ACA. For now, that means I have a separate insurance card that is only for contraceptive coverage. Annoying, but whatever. Next year will remain the same, but I have no idea what will happen in 2019….

    10. Victoria, Please*

      Parking is dirt cheap for faculty since it’s negotiated as part of our collective bargaining agreement. Of course, you might not be able to find a space at any given time if you’re arriving on campus after 10 am, but at least you’re paying, I swear this is true, <$15 a month.

    11. Liz*

      I work in IT in higher ed. The salary is not great but benefits for me include a 40-45 hour week, good retirement plans (401k + pension after 10 years), cheap health/dental insurance, free tuition for employee (limited free for spouse and discounts for kids, and you have to pay fees for anyone), discounted gym membership, decent amounts of vacation and sick leave. Recently they added lynda.com for everyone. Unofficially I also get a lot of flex-time. The benefits add 20-25% to my gross salary, according to the total compensation statement.

      Looking at the replies, benefits vary tremendously depending on size, focus and type of university. If it’s a public university most of this should be posted online, including salary ranges, so he can find out before he even applies. Some sites need more Google-fu than others though!

  80. Kate*

    Work clothes:

    I guess I’ve been wearing a “work uniform” since before I knew that was a thing, but I tend to wear a button down shirt and dress pants whenever I have to head into an office. New York & Co started doing this annoying thing with their shirts though where they don’t have a top button, and the V is made more prominent. I kind of hate it. Aside from ThredUp, where do people like to get their work clothes?

    1. Emi.*

      I really like Lands’ End! I have several of their button-up shirts that I got on sale for ~$10 each, and they’re very comfy. (I particularly like the ones with three-quarter sleeves because my arms are too long for long sleeves so I’d be rolling them up anyway.) Throw them in the dryer for 15 minutes and then hang them. :)

    2. HannahS*

      Banana Republic is hit-and-miss, but I’ve found some good petite clothes there (petite as in short, not as in slim). I bought an interview-suit from Ann Taylor last year and was impressed. I’ve seen some great stuff at RW and Co. and Uniqlo–fantastic basics there–but I don’t find their stuff is cut for a pear-shaped figure. I dunno. My “professional” wardrobe right now is a one pair of Banana Republic pants, the aforementioned suit (pants only; I don’t actually need the jacket) and a variety of cardigans and one dress shirt from H and M so….yeah I’ll be watching this thread! If I had more money and was less cheap I’d buy stuff from Brooks Brothers.

    3. NaoNao*

      Fashion advice, my favorite!
      For business casual:
      Gap
      Banana Republic
      J. Crew
      Madewell
      Macy’s
      Kohl’s
      Cabi
      J. Jill
      Chico’s

      For business
      Nordstrom’s
      Eileen Fisher (if you’re in a more creative but high end office)
      Macy’s (suit section)
      High end specialty stores or boutiques that carry mid-range labels (like Theory, etc.)
      Brooks Brothers
      Calvin Klein
      Dana Buchman
      Donna Karan

      1. o.b.*

        In addition to all of the above—I didn’t really consider my “Portofino shirt” from Express good quality until I realized it’s lasted 5 years without any kind of disintegration or wear and tear. Super comfortable, casual but professional, comes in many colors. Not ideal for hotter days though, and definitely wait for a (frequent) sale.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I’d add Old Navy to the business casual list, I’ve had some really good finds there. If you live near an outlet mall, the factory versions of some stores are a goldmine.

    5. Specialk9*

      Wear a black tank underneath for coverage. But New York & Co’s quality just isn’t there. At that price point, go with Old Navy and Target’s Merona brand for cardigans, shirts, trousers. I also love Talbot clothes on eBay.

  81. Queen of the File*

    Does anyone have any good advice for helping someone talk less? I work with a wonderful person who has recognized she has a tendency to over-explain, to the point of irritating people and making them tune out. She wants to become more succinct, and I want to be supportive, but it’s proving a really difficult thing to rein in. We mostly interact in conference calls of various sizes where she is often responsible for facilitating and answering questions. Any ideas?

    1. Turtlewings*

      When you turn to her for an answer, try (playfully) giving her a “box” to fit it in. “Samantha, in ten words or less, can you explain how that works?” You don’t want to do that every time, but if she’s starting to ramble, maybe pull her in with the next question.

      And/or, arrange a “code word” you can drop when she’s getting rambly that signals her to rein it in.

      2. HannahS*

        That’s great advice! When I was little my dad would always get me to describe the movies and books I was reading in one sentence. It’s a useful skill, even though I hated the exercise at the time. I use something similar now, when I ask people stuff like, “Can you give me the five-sentence summary of [topic]?”

    2. Reba*

      In a teaching workshop I learned WAIT — Why Am I Talking?

      This pops into my head when I start monologuing, simply asking myself “do I have a point that needs to be made now?” The acronym is cheesy but it has helped me!

      1. nonegiven*

        Does this need to be said?
        Does this need to be said by me?
        Does this need to be said by me, now?

  82. Worker anonymous*

    We share a database with many departments; we typically can only edit certain areas. My area can probably edit the largest area. One of my rapports (A) is constantly upset at what others are doing to the database; those people do not report to A, and in my opinion, it is not practical that they should all consult for every little change, and their concerns are just valid as A’s (which A has trouble understanding at times). A’s approach is to be very aggressive blamey on the others, which makes the others not want to consult with her, even on those occasions they think about it. They consult with me instead usually. I’ve had meetings with A and the other people one on one, so I could mediate/translate/keep the tone civil but it has not changed much. Any ideas how to change this dynamic? things would be so much easier if they could just talk to each other like the colleagues they are.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Do you have the ability to run separate databases for each person? Maybe your DB admin can give you a couple more databases? Also, you do know that each database can have multiple tables, right? If Person A wants a database to do something different from Person B, maybe they can each create a separate table?

      Also, your database is only as good as the data that gets into the database. For example, if you have fields called “First_Name” and “Last_Name,” and the “First_Name” field is filled out as “Fergus Smith” and the “Last_Name” field is not filled out at all, then a last name search on “Fergus Smith” will fail. Generalize from this to all other data in your database.

      So Person A may have a point, even if he is a PITA about it. Make sure you clearly understand what data is getting into your database, and how it is parsed. For example, if the “First_Name” field is filled in a “Fergus Smith” there should be some kind of program code which sees two separate strings of text, “Fergus” and “Smith” and that code should throw up an error. Even though he is a pain, you need to understand exactly why Person A is upset about the database, and what the consequences are of their complaints. In short, I’m guessing that Person A is right and everyone else is wrong.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I’ve read it too. Definitely a hard one to get right. But if Person A is being a pain about proper database entries, s/he is probably right.

  83. jstarr*

    I’m having to come in for a meeting during my week long vacation and I’m peeved. It’s not mandatory but if I don’t show up, my co-workers will assign me tasks that don’t make sense for my position. They have no concept of what I do, despite me explaining it.

    The last time this happened, I had to approach other people in my position at other Teapot Factories to tell me I’m not crazy and we don’t, in fact, do these tasks as a rule. GRRR

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Could your manager attend in your place and push back? Or, if these are coworkers and not your manager assigning the tasks, can you push back when you get back?

      1. jstarr*

        I only answer to the top manager so while on paper I’m the same level as these coworkers, in practice I’m in a grey area. Top manager also has no clue what I do and is very eager to jump on top of a perceived “fix” to issues between the two departments holding the meeting.

    2. BRR*

      Ugh that sucks. I’m in a similar role where only a small number of people know what I do. Can you call in? Can you assign yourself tasks before you leave?

  84. brightstar*

    Yesterday’s question about the woman dressing in a costume at a very conservative financial firm and trying to “trick or treat” put a question in my mind.

    Have you ever had to speak to an employee about something you thought would be obvious common sense and never expected would need explaining?

    My example is I supervise an employee who has some quirks. I had to explain to her that it was inappropriate to sit cross legged on the ground in front of the main doors for an hour while handling personal business on her cell phone. This was after my boss saw her sitting cross legged in the main hallway and told her to go out back. We understand personal business comes up sometimes, just don’t sit on the ground.

      1. brightstar*

        It was that she was sitting on the ground by the main entrance for over an hour. People often go by the loading dock, but this was where everyone, including powerful types, enter and leave.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I mean, if she was wearing a skirt, then that’s clearly inappropriate, but in pants/trousers/jeans?

        Although now that I think about it, the issue is probably with the casual long-term lounging appearance combined with high-volume entrance, and not with the specific posture. Yeah, that should not be the image she wants to project.

    3. girlonfire*

      Oh yes. I had to explain once to an employee that she shouldn’t book tickets for a vacation during our busiest week of the year without manager approval. She’d been working with us for five years, she should have known it’s busy. Gah!

    4. Amber Rose*

      “Yes, new hire, you have to fill out this form. Staring at me will not make it go away. You still have to fill it out.”

    5. Grits McGee*

      This wasn’t my problem to solve, but we had a new hire spend most of her first day helping herself to personal supplies from other people’s cubes.

    6. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      “Yes, checking your email is a job requirement. You need to sign in to your email and look at it every day you work. Once a month is not acceptable.”

    7. Une Quebecoise*

      At an office with a fairly strict dress code…
      You must put shoes on if you’re going to walk around the office.
      Slip off your shoes under the desk while you’re working, acceptable. Delivering paperwork down to accounting requires shoes.
      And then two days later – fluffy pink slippers are not shoes.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Omg the shoes thing!! I had to tell my coworker that it’s not appropriate to wear slippers in the office. This was after she was chastised for walking around in her socks…

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a university. Campus tours are required for all new staff. I had a colleague skip her scheduled campus tour because “Jane told me I didn’t have to.” Jane works in our department but we barely interact and she is definitely not our supervisor! I had to tell my colleague “Jane is not our supervisor. Pat is. Pat said you need to go on a campus tour so you need to email Pat and explain what happened today.”

      She never did that, never went on a campus tour, and never tried to get to know campus. I am so glad she’s gone!

    9. Fictional Butt*

      This isn’t a problem I personally had to solve, but at my last job, we had a young employee who bled profusely on a pile of documents and then put them in a box to be given to clients. Luckily, one of my other coworkers noticed before we started handing out biohazards.

    10. strawberries and raspberries*

      “A 40+ person Whatsapp thread for our annual gala which includes all of upper management is not the place to make jokes about getting hangovers and how bad the music is.”

    11. Elizabeth West*

      Bosswife at OldExjob once made my supervisor send a temp home because she wore a very low-cut blouse. She had a blazer on and nice slacks, but the blouse was a summery type thing that went all the way down between her breasts. My boss saw it and apparently blew a gasket.

      I think she was told to go home and change. But she didn’t come back–maybe too embarrassed, or she didn’t have any other suitable blouse. The sales guys were mad because Bosswife spoiled their view. *eyeroll*

    12. Brownie*

      Co-mentor to a new intern and having to explain to them that
      – Netflix is not acceptable to have on at work, even if it’s just for “background noise”
      – No, CrunchyRoll and Hulu count the same as Netflix
      – YouTube videos count too
      – Streaming live TV channels as well
      – Just… okay, look, there are no videos apart from training videos which are okay to be watching at work, especially on your work computer.

    14. Dr. Doll*

      We’re damned laid back in many ways, but your main squeeze cannot come and hang out in your cubicle for the entire day while they’re in town and you are too new to have PTO.

      (Actually I’m waiting to see if this repeats *while I am in the office* because otherwise it’s hearsay from when I was out last week from someone whose opinion I don’t put great stock in. If it repeats while I’m in the office, then it was an innocent mistake; if it doesn’t then great; if it repeats while I’m OUT again then, um….we will have a Serious Talk.)

    15. Chaordic One*

      I once spoke to a coworker who was my peer about her “new” dress. She was thrilled with it and the low price she paid for it. It wasn’t indecent, but made of thin cotton in an odd print and really looked like what my stay-at-home mother would have worn around the house when she was doing housework back in the 1960s. A “house dress,” though she usually wore it nice low heels and some kind of nice necklace. I couldn’t help myself and at lunch I said something. Anyway, it didn’t go particularly well. She became defensive and didn’t really get it and continued to wear it to work and so I just shut up about it.

      2. Specialk9*

        Chaordic One, you were so totally out of line. Of course she was offended, you acted offensively! What on earth made you want to slap her down like that?

  85. Horse Lover*

    A couple months ago my company sent me to their big, month long training program (something your manager had to nominate you for). I’m not really sure why I was nominated other than “this looks good” or “career development.” Anywho, all it really did was convince me that the career path options for the job I’m in now aren’t something that I want to do. For context, I’m in insurance and basically my options are:

    1) stay in my job until it is automated or outsourced (and maybe even indefinitely b/c my company likes to be at least 10-20 yrs behind the times when it comes to technology)

    2) grow up in my job to be a manager or subject matter expert

    3) move over to underwriting (which is the big one that almost everyone does, that they seem to like to see here)

    4) try to transfer over into a different department altogether, like HR

    My problem is wrestling over whether I should do 1, 3, or 4. I know I could always go to a different company and I would love it if I could find a shorter commute, but I really don’t want to throw away what I have invested in this company if I don’t have to. It’s not like I feel that I can’t do the job for 2 or 3 or even what I have now, 1. And I’m not naive enough to think the perfect unicorn job is out there where you’re always happy and satisfied all the time. I just don’t have any interest or strong desire for these.

    I have slightly more interest in moving over to my company’s HR department because we are large enough that all the sections are broken out and I could just do, say benefits or payroll and that’s it. And that is similar to what I was doing before I got hired at this company and I remember enjoying it more. Even though there were days, but overall it was better, I felt more content, more satisfied with that position. The only reason I left is because the bank was sold to a larger bank and they didn’t keep anyone who wasn’t client facing.

    So, if I decide to stay where I’m at in hopes I can eventually move to HR, what are things that I can do in the mean time to be a better candidate? I looked into getting a PHR but they basically told me they don’t consider my current or last position to meet their “professional experience” requirement.

    Or should I just give it and say “You win, Universe” and throw my time and dedication into UW? Instead of waiting around until they *might* have an opening in HR and they *might* hire you for it.

    *other context things: my commute right now is about 35-40 mins each way, I use public transport but I got really spoiled with my old job when I moved and was only 5 mins from my workplace. Also, I’ve been with this company 4 years and before that I was with my bank for 8 years.

    1. periwinkle*

      Would your work at the bank be considered HR? You could prep for the SHRM-CP exam if you meet eligibility requirements, which aren’t as strict as the PHR ones: if you have a non-HR bachelor’s degree, for example, you need 2 years of experience and it does not have to be exempt-level (unlike PHR, which only counts time in exempt roles). If you did payroll/benefits stuff, that would probably meet the requirements.

      However, a certification is no guarantee that you’d be considered. Why not talk to a manager in your HR department? She would know what kind of skills and knowledge they’re looking for and how you could make the move. Total Rewards (benefits and compensation) is a great specialization if you’re the analytical sort. Heck, hit up Coursera and other free resources to learn data analytics – HR is trying to move in that direction but so few people in HR have those skills.

    2. Sualah*

      I work for a big bank and my first role there had a similar trajectory. I did move to underwriting, but once I was an underwriter, I was then able to change to another department more easily (my current role in QA, and another job I’m interviewing for). So if underwriting isn’t something you would completely hate, maybe take that route until there’s something in HR, or another department altogether.

  86. Inconceivable*

    Witnessed a ridiculous move by a terrible manager. The department is one that has a constant flow of work, like a QA department, and the manager let one of the employees take the month off unpaid for a vacation. Mind you, the employee already used up all of her 4 weeks of vacation time and took a previous unpaid 2 week vacation this year. The department was falling behind because they had been understaffed for so long so the manager required them to work instead of going to the 2 hour benefits meeting.
    First off, 2 hours wasn’t going to put a dent in their backlog, and second, now the department doesn’t know about health insurance changes and didn’t get to ask questions about the changes.
    It’s mind boggling.

  87. Fired, I guess...*

    The backstory:

    Nine years ago, I was working at ToxicJob.

    I asked to go home sick (Had sick time. Couldn’t find Boss. Asked GrandBoss if I could leave. GrandBoss approved. Emailed Boss and CC’d GrandBoss to cover my butt because that’s just the type of place it was. Didn’t think to BCC my personal email address to double cover my butt. This was a mistake. Put the sick time in the portal before leaving.) and when I went in the next day (on time, after texting Grandboss that I’d be in) I was immediately terminated for job abandonment. Boss was pretty hands off and hard to find 90% of the time. They’d been “promoted” to a position created solely to move them from another position where they were flailing, so OriginalBoss became GrandBoss and I was closer to them than Boss.

    I’ve since learned that’s not how job abandonment works. I’ve gotten two jobs since then (neither has asked if I’ve been fired) with no problem. It’s been so long that I’ve taken ToxicJob (customer service) off my resume, so it doesn’t come up in interviews.

    Now I think I have a problem.

    I’ve lived over 1,000 miles away from ToxicJob for the last five years. I applied for a position at NewCompany here and found out someone (Pat) who worked at ToxicJob lives here and works at this organization. Pat was a fairly good person to me and we were friendly enough at the time. Pat was kind of part of ToxicCulture, but mostly through personal relationships and NOT in management.

    I’m interviewing next week.

    Pat is in the hierarchy at NewCompany (below the position I applied for, but still high enough) and I’m certain I’ll have to meet with them at some point if not during the interview. I’d prefer ToxicJob not come up, but I think it will…considering.

    My question is two parts:

    1. I don’t want to look like a kiss ass and reach out to Pat beforehand even though we do share mutual friends, but should I give Pat a heads up? It’s wholly possible that Pat may not want to address our time at ToxicJob at all considering their reputation at the company. My name is bland and I’ve married since I left ToxicJob, so Pat doesn’t know that Katie Smith from ToxicJob is Katie Jones, new applicant.

    2. How do I address “fired nine years ago for abandoning a job I didn’t abandon”? If it matters, I’ve kept both jobs I’ve held since then for 5 years each and graduated from both undergrad and grad school. Thanks everyone!

    1. Half-Caf Latte*

      My first thought was: were you young/teenaged when you worked at ToxicJob? If so, I’d think you could give a sanitized version: I went home ill with permission, another manager decided I shouldn’t have, and told my my employment ended because of abandonment. I was young/didn’t understand how this works/was leaving for college/my parents didn’t want me working there anymore anyway, and so didn’t understand the implications of what they were telling me.

      My second thought is can you have someone call ToxicJob and pretend to be asking for a reference, to see what they say? If they give a good/neutral/eligible-for-rehire reference, then I think you have less to fear.

      1. Fired, I guess...*

        Thanks, you helped calm my nerves a bit!

        It was my first job. I’d been there about 2 years and was in undergrad at the time. Neither Boss nor GrandBoss are still there. In fact, I don’t think anyone I worked with is still there. I had four managers in two years years with three managers in the last year because turnover was so high.

        It went:
        BossOne 1 yr (No idea where they are)
        SecondBoss 6 mos (Still keep in contact)
        ThirdBossTurnedGrandBoss 3 mos (No idea where they are )
        LastBoss 3 mos (No idea where they are)

        I have remained friendly with my SecondBoss and use them as a professional reference because we worked together closely for my first year before I moved to their team for six months until they left, so nothing improper. I’d be honest if Pat brought up ToxicJob or if I was asked about all jobs (I’m finding most places only ask for 5-7 years of work history) or if I’d been fired from ANY job and I didn’t know how to explain being fired for abandoning a job I didn’t feel I abandoned. I’m sure bringing up ToxicJob would mean they’d go digging, so I wanted to cover my butt.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe you can ask SecondBoss what to do here?
          Honestly, if Pat was going to submarine me, I would prefer she do that at the hiring stage so I just know to move on.
          You say that you and Pat had an okay relationship, I would just hang on to that.
          If they ask you about the firing or any firing, you just very simply explain, “I was very ill and needed to go home. Immediate boss was not there so Big Boss gave me permission to leave. I entered my absence in the system and left. The next day my immediate boss fired me for job abandonment.”
          That is all I would say, I would not add editorial comment, I would not add extra details. That stands on its own very well.

          1. Fired, I guess...*

            I don’t think Pat would try to sink me because they weren’t that kind of person. They did what they felt they needed to do to make it in that place and I didn’t judge that. I don’t know the terms under which they left since I was embarrassed for being fired and didn’t keep in touch. I heard things imploded for a lot of people involved with the toxicity and there was a lot of resigning in lieu of termination. Honestly, I don’t want to show up and freak Pat out. I’d be pretty spooked if someone from that place popped up on my doorstep so to speak.

            I’m going to practice these phrasings. Thank you.

  88. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    Need some advice for Mr. Death Rides!

    He has had 2 interviews for a local community college for an IT position. First interview was a skills test, which he passed w/ flying colors. 2nd interview was a group interview with canned questions, which we practiced before and he passed with, you guessed it, flying colors. At the end of the 2nd interview, he was told that the final candidate would be informed within a few days.

    Now he gets an email–HR wants him to come in for another interview! AIIIIGH! Do you think he should practice the regular interview questions? Or do you think they’re going to laser in on questions they have that they didn’t ask before? How would you prepare for this?

    Thank you, and FINGERS CROSSED, PLEASE…

    1. fposte*

      Do you know who the second interview is with? My guess is that the pre-planned questions are getting at things they really need to know, so the second interview won’t be a complete departure, especially if it’s with different people; however, if it’s with the same people, I’d expect to go deeper, and I’d check out Alison’s tips on common interview questions for some thoughts on what new areas might be touched on.

      But in general I’d prepare for this like I’d prepare for any interview–know yourself, know your stuff, have good examples of why you’re great at it and what you’ve brought to similar positions.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I would think this second interview is going to be less formal, more about getting to know your husband as a person and potential employee. This was how my hiring went (I work at a university).

      I would prepare to talk about personal experience in the field, but it really depends on who he’s going to be speaking with…

  89. Ivana Newjob*

    Has anyone here ever made a successful transition away from HR? I’m a leader in a large org (50k-ish employees, 5k-ish in my division) and I am not enthused about the future in HR.

    1. Chickwriter*

      I did. Not from quite as large a company, but 20 years ago, after 16 years in HR, I had enough. I completely changed careers and took a job with a family-owned company as office manager (no other employees but me and the owner). It was a palate cleanser. While I worked in this fairly low-stress job, I was able to re-evaluate what I wanted to do and basically went in on ground floor again (this time in tech). Been in tech even since, and at same company for nearly 17 years and am happy.

      It’s doable, but you need to really think on what your new path might be and what you’re willing to do to get there. I was 40 when I changed, so not young, but I was determined. :)

  90. Hannah*

    I’m doing a lot of freelancing submissions at the moment and am also tracking a big contracted creative project. Currently I have a Google doc containing weekly/monthly/three-monthly goals, a spreadsheet of submissions and applications, and a paper notebook for daily to do lists. But I’m starting to realise I’d like the daily and weekly stuff in one place.

    All of which is to say, I think I need a work diary/planner! I’m wary about buying something I won’t use, so recommendations (or suggestions of planners to avoid) are most welcome!

    1. selina kyle*

      My last girlfriend got me one of these for Christmas, and I love it to pieces. It’s super pretty and useful – with plenty of space for writing, plus it has sections for reflection on each month. I can’t recommend it enough, even though it is a little expensive.
      (It’s a Passion Planner, in case the link in my name somehow goes wrong!)

      1. Hannah*

        Ooooh, they do look good. I’m not so fond of the motivational quotes, but the weekly layout looks just the thing.

    2. HannahS*

      I’m using a mix of google calendar and a moleskine planner, the one that has a full week on the left page and lined paper on the right when you open it. That way, I have my daily stuff on one side and my weekly not-timebound stuff (like, “mail card to grandparents”) on the other. I use google calendar on my phone for the daily details though, because I just went back to school and my schedule is pretty tight. Not 100% sure that it’s working for me; I prefer to use one or the other, so we’ll see.

      1. Hannah*

        I do like the look and feel of moleskines, and having the combination of daily plus less-time-dependent stuff in one page spread sounds useful! I use Google calendar too for appointments, I don’t see that changing anytime soon, but sorting out my to do lists and longer term planning would definitely help me get myself organised.

    3. Specialk9*

      Have you looked up Bullet Journals? People are crazy about them. Google it, you’ll find examples, the basic rules, videos…

  91. Holiday Cheer!*

    Do I have a story for you!

    We have a coworker who, every year, sends out Christmas cards and orders catering for the office around said holiday. He even stalks former coworkers online to find out where they work in order to send them cards. Last year he sent one to a woman, two jobs later, on the opposite side of the country. The food is generally unwelcome because he makes it incredibly stressful and whines about the cost every year.

    Anyway, this year we were acquired by a group of companies.

    We received our Christmas cards this past Monday! And then he spoke at length, in front of the whole office, about how he sent cards to every executive at all of the companies in the group. Also included was a$12 gift card for food at his catering place of choice.

    But what pushes this over the line was that if he felt someone didn’t speak English as a first language, he included his note in the card in whatever he thought their first language may be. He admitted he didn’t know “what kind of Asian” on executive was, so he wrote the message in Chinese and Japanese.

    SMH….

    2. Feo Takahari*

      Yikes. Does he even know those languages? For that matter, did he bother confirming which of these people celebrate Christmas? It might actually be better for him if he used Google Translate and his card gets thrown out as gibberish.

      (Betcha the executive turns out to be Korean. “What in the world is this?”)

      1. Holiday Cheer!*

        The used Google translate and checked with no one to see if they celebrated. I think the best possible outcome is the card just gets tossed…

        It’s a nice gesture! But done all wrong

    4. crookedfinger*

      I can’t decide which is worse, guessing someone’s language and trying to write in it, or sending Christmas cards before Halloween. (okay obviously it’s the former, but…)

    5. brightstar*

      This dude sounds overtly aggressive about Christmas, in addition to obtuse and bigoted. I’m just picturing a middle aged white dude shaking a Christmas card in someone’s face while screaming ‘YOU ARE GOING TO ENJOY CHRISTMAS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!”

    7. Sunshine Brite*

      Omg no, how has this gone on for so long!?! I’d be surprised if he still has a job after this year’s stunt bothering every single executive related to a religiously based holiday plus racial stereotyping thrown in to boot.

    8. Havarti*

      Oh my god. Oh my god. Where is the boss in all of this? This would be a crisis where I work. My supervisor would be having an absolute litter of kittens if someone in our group was doing this.

    9. Anonymous Educator*

      In addition to being horrible in general, this is just another instance of alllooksamedotcom that doesn’t differentiate between Asians of any kind. It’s very common in real life (not just on a Christmas card) for racist folks to just randomly go up to an Asian-looking person and badly pronounce some random phrase they “learned” in a particular Asian language without any regard for what Asian country the person they’re talking to is from or descended from and whether they even speak that language.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          If I worked at this place and so no consequences for this co-worker, I’d be looking for another job.

    10. Half-Caf Latte*

      So obviously what everyone has already said about his racism and the general need for Gumption Gus here to be hit with a clue-by-four.

      But also- a $12 gift card? What a random amount. I’m assuming it’s to Panera or a similar national chain, since it went out to other locations and they do individual meals along with catering.

      I’m imagining this guy at the register, buying dozens of $12 gift cards, and regaling the cashier with tales of what a Great Guy he is, and how he’s looked up merry Christmas in Chinese and Japanese.

  92. Job Requirements*

    What are your thoughts about applying for a job but you don’t meet all of the requirements?
    Are you just wasting time or will you still be considered?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m all for it. First real job I got was because I applied for a job I was not qualified for, but the same workplace had a secret (not-at-that-point-advertised) job they thought I’d be a better fit for, and I got that job. Next job I was completely unqualified for (on paper, anyway), and I was shocked when I got the call to come in for an interview. Got the job. Excelled at it (eventually—the first three months were death).

      The real question you should ask yourself isn’t “Do I check all these boxes in the job description?” but “Can I do this job?”

      The worst that could happen is they just throw out your résumé and say to themselves “Why did this person even apply?”

    2. Queen of the File*

      I got good advice on this once: “Don’t screen yourself out of the position.”

      You don’t want to waste time when you don’t even come close, but if you’re debating, err on the side of applying.

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’ve gotten jobs before where I didn’t meet all the requirements. It depends on what sort of requirements they are–if they require that you speak a certain language that you don’t speak because you would be working with a population that speaks that language or something else that would be really vital, then I wouldn’t bother. But if they want 3 years of experience in Teapot Spouts and you have one plus two years in Teapot Handles or even Teapot Sales, I’d say give it a shot. What I try to focus on is how much of the day-to-day job will, based on how the ad is written (so this isn’t perfect), involve skills I have versus skills I don’t.

    4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I think I’ve read on here to treat the requirements more like a wish list, and not a hard rule of what must be had. I know I’ve applied for things where I’ve been missing or a little under-qualified and gotten at least an interview and sometimes the job.

      1. Fictional Butt*

        Yes. This is something I really didn’t understand until I was on the other side of a hiring process. There are no perfect candidates, and sometimes you don’t even know what the most important deciding factors will be until you have the resumes in front of you.

    5. Trillian*

      I just got a job where I had very limited experience in performing the main job duties, but had pretty extensive exposure to it. I made sure to explain that in the cover letter and was lucky enough to score an interview. (And subsequently land the job.)

      If I had not included the cover letter explaining how my experience was related to the job, I’m guessing they may have not called me though.

    6. Thlayli*

      Go for it. Research shows this is actually one of the reasons women move up less than men – if you have a man and a woman who both have 2/3 of the requirements a man is more likely to apply and a woman is more likely to not apply.

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        I think about this all the time. I think it’s related to the way that women tend to drop out of hard Sciences Majors if they’re not immediately good at it, but men get less pressure to be perfect and more encouragement to stick with something even if they’re not getting good grades.

  93. Feo Takahari*

    I’m a junior employee at a massive corporation. I identify as female, but present as male at work.

    My male boss recently left, and a recently hired woman is filling in for him until such time as a replacement can be found. I’ve noticed that some of my coworkers are much less respectful to her than they were to him, sometimes bordering on insubordination. I can’t prove sexism, but I suspect it based on the way they interrupt her and treat her like she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Is there anything I can do to support her from a junior position? (She’s doing a good job of handling this herself, always politely but firmly refocusing on the action that needs to be taken.)

    2. Specialk9*

      The most you can do is give surprised looks and saying ‘That’s weird, I’ve been impressed by her knowledge’ if they run her down. But that’s about it. Not your job to fix your co-workers.

      But yes, uncomfortable that they mentally peg you as ‘one of us’ dudes, and you’re really identifying with the woman being mistreated (maybe).

      My best wishes to you in your transition, however that looks for you!

  94. agmat*

    I can’t decide whether to attend a previous manager’s retirement party.

    She was my first boss at this organization but teams were moved around and now I have a new one. Which is great because otherwise I would have quit, she was so terrible. She drones on about weird details of her life (including topics 40 years old), no one can interrupt her to make it stop, and she just in general is awful to be around. Not to mention work moves at a glacial pace because her priorities are out of whack.

    She’s retiring, finally. Retirement parties here are not put on by higher ups and are usually organized by your closest team members. We do not report to a central office and are all over the state so it takes effort to make it to a retirement party.

    My pure gut response is that I don’t want to go, but I don’t want to come across as a spiteful person.

    1. Turtlewings*

      Don’t go. Honestly, would you even want someone at your retirement party that didn’t actually like you? There’s no reason to put yourself through it. You have a previous engagement, so sorry, wish her the best.

    3. periwinkle*

      Go, just for a little while, if it’s convenient. Wish her well on her retirement, with the subtext in your head that you are wishing her well away from your company. Have some cake.

      Our VP retired earlier this year. She was awful, trumpeting her team’s accomplishments when it was time to apply for awards but blocking us from getting a lot of things done the rest of the time. Our director circulated a card which we could sign if we liked. I wrote that I wished her a fun retirement and that she was an inspiration. What I did not write was that she was an inspiration on how not to manage, and inspired us to be more creative at finding ways around the barriers that her lack of interest in/knowledge of our field had on satisfying our internal customers. She got a nice message in her card, I got one last good solid eye roll in over her poor leadership – a win-win!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      A friend went to the retirement party for his Toxic Boss. He even chipped in for a present, not because he wanted to but because he felt on some ethical plane somewhere he probably should.

      What happened next was interesting. Friend got to see a side of this toxic boss that was very different. See, retirement is a moment. Then they go home and NOTHING happens. There is no work to go to, they are just stuck at home. Boss was really feeling this big time. A major chapter in his life was closing and the next chapter may not be so great. Friend got to see the boss in a slightly different light.

  95. cornflower blue*

    Today marks three weeks that my work area has been encased in plastic sheeting due to never-ending construction. I have only once whisper-yelled “I’M IN A GLASS CASE OF EMOTION!” and I would like due credit for my Herculean level of restraint.

    I’m going to have a cookie.

  96. a girl has no name*

    Well, my nervous giggly phone interview must not have gone as terribly as I thought- since I’ve been called for an in-person interview on Tuesday morning. I plan to review the materials on this site about interviews this weekend (it’s been 5 years, and I’m rusty.) The letter this week about the recruiter was helpful too since a recruiter originally reached out to me on LinkedIn about the job. I feel more confident that I am a decent fit. Does anyone have any helpful interview tips or tricks to pass along?

    1. Kathenus*

      Spend time on the company’s website. Learn more details about the organization to inform your questions, and possibly to be able to use this information in your responses. For example if there’s one about areas you’d like to improve in the next year, you could say that you are interested in increasing your skills in llama hoof care, and that unlike many related organizations you know that this company has it’s own llama farrier department which is exciting as you’d have the opportunity to learn from in-house experts. Don’t force company-related information in just to do it, but when you can direct a response or question to the specifics of the organization, or how your experience and skills will be a good addition for their specific programs, it can be helpful to show that level of research and thought. Good luck!

    2. Specialk9*

      Chamomile tea beforehand! Guided meditation. Listen to Jim Brickman as you review your resume. Then think of someone who is very calm, and channel them. Good luck!

  97. Going deaf*

    My desk was recently moved right below a noisy vent. As in I can’t understand what someone is saying three feet away level of noisy. It is driving me insane! I am starting a new job in a month and I’m considering leaving early. It literally hurts my ears to sit at my desk. I feel really bad for the other people who moved who aren’t leaving next month.

    1. Database Geek*

      If it’s hurting your ears to sit there you really should get some ear plugs (or go ahead and leave early). Noise like that can do permanent damage to your hearing.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yes get earplugs and also ask your health and safety department to do a workplace assessment of your workplace.

    2. Samiratou*

      Do you have a facilities dept or property manager or something you can contact to fix it? Or is it not a malfunctioning vent but a naturally noisy one?

  98. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    MY HUSBAND GOT THE JOB!!!!!!!!! He’s been desperate to leave his current position for months. He got a new manager who has started implementing changes that are eventually going to result in someone at the company being sued. He has been applying to anything and everything he was remotely qualified for, but it was all a bunch of initial interviews with a “Thank you but…” letter follow up. Last week he interviewed for a company that is similar to what he currently does but: better hours, no on-call duties, paid holidays, and it’s literally 6 minutes from our house. He had the second interview today and they offered him the job. The pay (while never going to be great given his field) is still more than what he makes now and way more than the lowest amount he would have accepted.
    I want to cry I am that happy. LOL! And the petty, awful part of me is happy that he will be leaving his current job right before the holidays. His new manager scheduled him for ALL of the holidays and is working none of them herself…and since a manager has to be on duty during those days and there’s nobody else she’s the one who’s going to have to work.

    1. Turtlewings*

      Congratulations to him!!! And I’m also delighted on his behalf about the holiday stuff. Personally, it really peeves me when managers don’t pull their weight around the holidays. Rank hath its privileges but… well, I reserve my admiration for the managers that throw right in with the plebes.

      1. Fake old Converse shoes*

        I’m imagining his boss face when he gives notice. “Did you schedule me to work all the holidays? Fine, I QUIT! *walks towards the sunset*”

  99. Confused in the lone star state*

    Question about overtime compensation. Sorry for length, I wanted to give context.

    I am a salaried non-exempt admin for a small company (~30 employees). Most of the employees are counter or warehouse associates (all men), with a 4 person admin/office crew (all women). Everyone here is expected to work a standard 40 hour week, but the counter and warehouse guys rotate Saturdays and sometimes stay late or take short lunches to meet customer demand, so they often go over 40 hours/week.

    My company has always used the “half-time” model of overtime calculation. I’ve never worked overtime so I never really paid attention to it and never understood it. Then yesterday my manager asked if I could come in Saturday morning, which is fine, so last night I looked up the half-time model, and found that it’s predicated on a “fluctuating work week” schedule (ie, assumes that some weeks you’re scheduled for 40), which no one here ever is. We always work a minimum of 40 hours a week. Additionally, my state workforce commission’s website explicitly says employees who are salaried non-exempt and scheduled for 40 regular hours/week should be paid time and a half.

    The arithmetical difference for me if I worked an extra 4 hours this Saturday is only $9.13, but the counter/warehouse guys make more than I do and work overtime on a regular basis, so they’re definitely getting shorted more money at least a few weeks a month.

    I brought it up to my manager’s boss, who is our president/co-owner and who is in charge of payroll, under the guise of wanting clarification on company overtime policy. He doubled down hard on “we’ve always used the fluctuating work week half-time overtime model”, even though no one here actually has a fluctuating work week. I told him what the state and federal websites said, and he just said “well there’s different ways to calculate it”.

    This just sounds so shady to me? But he’s the top of the chain and was very firm about it so I don’t see that there’s much I can do, since I’m not actually working overtime ever. (This Saturday got cancelled, even.)

    Is this as shady as it seems, or does fluctuating work week mean “always works at least 40 hours, sometimes works as much as 45-50”? Should I chalk it up to a tally in the “reasons to get a new job” column and move on?

    1. special snowflake*

      This to me seems shady enough to talk to someone who would know more. As far as I can tell you don’t have to be the one being shorted to make a complaint. And if the people who are being shorted regularly haven’t ever realized this isn’t allowed they may not know to complain or feel comfortable complaining.
      You aren’t required to and you don’t need to make a fuss if something comes of it but I would consider it a good deed/community service/ insert your term of choice here to talk to the state department involved and say this is the structure and while I’m not generally impacted a lot of people are.

    2. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

      I also live in Texas, and this is super shady/potentially illegal. I know a lot of employers here get confused and think that being an “at will” state means that employees have no protection and that they can do what they like, but they are legally obligated to follow federal minimum wage laws.

    3. paul*

      shady. Talk to Texas Workforce Commission. Wage theft is one of the things they’re actually good at it.

    4. Samiratou*

      It definitely sounds shady based on a read from the TX workforce page, but keep in mind if you do talk to the regulators and something comes of it, the Prez will assume it came from you, so be prepared for that. They’re not supposed to be able to retaliate, but…

  101. AlphabetSoupCity*

    Short version: I am 6 months into a new position and have been an extremely high performer. I asked my supervisor about long term planning for a promotion/title change, and after speaking with grandboss she came back and told me she is working on getting me a (large) promotion/title change AND a raise ASAP/within 6 months. She did not say what the raise would be and I didn’t ask. Is it appropriate to ask? It it appropriate to try to negotiate the raise, or should I not because it’s only 6 months in and I didn’t ask for it?

    Additional context: I am very early career, recent college grad, but this is my second full time position. I negotiated my starting salary up significantly from what I was offered. I am very high performing and have outperformed my colleague who was hired at the same time as me but has more experience/higher title/higher pay. The title change my supervisor is working on would move me technically above my colleague, who performs a different but related set of tasks.

      1. AlphabetSoupCity*

        Yeah, that’s kinda what I was thinking but I wanted to check. I’m worried that my title will jump but my pay won’t jump a corresponding degree and that I’ll be stuck with lower level pay for a higher level position, but maybe I can ask about that at the year mark.

  102. Natalie*

    I’ve been out of college and in the professional workforce for just about 10 years. Is a manager from 5 years ago too old for a reference?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It depends. How many jobs ago was 5 years ago? If you’ve held two jobs in 10 years, you can definitely include a manager from 5 years ago.

  103. special snowflake*

    So … our office manager (who is generally terrible at her job which is another debate) decided today was a good day for the phone techs to come and work on the phone system… without telling anyone ahead of time, or checking the calendar to see if anything was happening.
    Like a hugely important conference call… that has been scheduled for the last 2 weeks.
    Cell reception is crummy here in addition to the fact that taking work calls on speaker on a cell phone is generally annoying.
    I am displeased as is my boss
    Mostly just venting here but is there any way to convey what a problem this is beyond saying – this is presenting a big challenge for us and we really need advance notice in the future? Because I tried that and she brushed me off saying I’d just have to deal.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Who does your office manager report to? That person needs to have a serious conversation with her.

      1. Special Snowflake*

        Thrillingly to the CEO who was out of the office. Our operations/hr/sort of tech person left a few months ago and they’re trying to figure out the new role since it was such a hodge podge.

  104. Never Ending Restructures*

    I work for a nonprofit. In February of this year my employer had a restructure that resulted in my position being eliminated. I still had a job, but I was basically going to either be demoted or promoted. It took them like 2 months to figure everything out, and I got promoted.

    Well, this week my boss put in her notice and I’m in the same position. (They’re not going to hire to replace her, they’re going to restructure, and it could be either a small shuffle or a huge one.) I think there’s a good chance that it could work out well for me in terms of another promotion (or at least more responsibility) but the uncertainty kills me, and I feel like I JUST went through this. I’m also actively looking for a job elsewhere, but if I got promoted, I would stay. I don’t know how aggressive i should be about sharing this information with senior management.
    Sigh.

    1. Liz2*

      Why would you share anything? Until they give you any sense of the future, there’s nothing for you to make a decision on. I hope the timing ends up working out, but you don’t owe them anything except honestly at the moment they give you an offer.

    2. Thlayli*

      I think it would be a big risk sharing that at this stage. If they know you are considering leaving they might decide its s risk on their side to keep you on and a reshuffle would be the perfect time to shuffle you out entirely.

  105. Sunnydays*

    An acquaintance of mine wants me to help them get a job at my company. They vaguely indicated that a mutual acquaintance of ours knows someone at my company (whom I don’t know). My acquaintance wants the contact info of this coworker of mine. What’s the protocol for giving out other’s work email? Should I ask this coworker for their permission to give out their info?

    1. periwinkle*

      “Sorry, I don’t know that person. Maybe [mutual acquaintance] can get you her contact info.”

      I might connect an acquaintance to a coworker I know reasonably well, but I am not cold calling a stranger or slight acquaintance on their behalf.

        1. Marthooh*

          I just refreshed the comments and saw your reply. It looks like the mutual acquaintance doesn’t have anything to do with the situation, then, and isn’t willing to ask you directly for a favor.

          “Sorry, I don’t know C. O’Worker. Good luck, though!”

    2. Marthooh*

      Don’t give out a coworker’s info. If you knew them, you could offer to give them job-seeker’s info instead, but as it is, no.

      Tl;dr: what periwinkle said.

      1. Sunnydays*

        Do you think it woukd be ok if I asked coworker first or since I don’t know them would it just be an annoyance?

        1. JulieBulie*

          I don’t know if they would be annoyed or not, but since you don’t know one another, and you’re not even the common link between the job searcher and the coworker, I wouldn’t do it if I were you. Sadly, this kind of thing sometimes doesn’t end up being the good deed you think it is.

          Think of it this way: if the person who’s between the job searcher and the coworker isn’t willing to make the connection, maybe you should stay clear as well. They may know something about the coworker that you don’t.

          OTOH if you truly want to do this, then go ahead and send the job searcher’s info to the coworker and hope for the best. But please do NOT send the coworker’s info to the job searcher.

    3. NacSacJack*

      I did it once because someone in the company did it to me. Never ever will i do it again. I got royally chewed out by the person I referred. Thought I was doing him a favor and he was not pleased.

  106. Have to be anon today...*

    I have to be anon because if I use my regular commenting name, and if the person in question reads this, they’ll know immediately that I wrote it.

    I’ve been tasked with training a new person (NE, new employee) in our department, and my manager has made it clear that this person must succeed, and started to say that the company spent a lot of money to…then she trailed off, and just said that I have to make sure this person is trained properly, is happy, stays at the job, etc. I had asked NOT to train a person at this time, as I’m under a lot of pressure in my personal life and overwhelmed with work here…but to no avail…for better or worse I have to train NE.

    So, I put on my best calm, smiling self, and have been working with NE for a few months now. It is not going well. NE seems understand the task at hand, takes notes, but when challenged with doing the actual work on her own, NE asks the same questions over and over. Even when the notes are specific, think bullet points with clear instructions. I have real concerns. Recently I was trying to explain a process, showing NE the best way to handle a task, and NE started to cry and left the room. NE was gone so long I was concerned, and when I left the office to search, NE appeared again. This was by no means even a light pressure situation. I’ve offered to go over the notes, step by step, again. Not sure what else I can do.

    To complicate matters, if NE perceives even one iota of impatience from me, NE tells my manager I’m impatient and short, and that NE’s feelings are hurt. I’ve had 2 admonishments so far and for the life of me, cannot understand what I said or did, unless my facial expression gave something away. Quite frankly, I am frustrated. I’m doing the best I can under stressful circumstances and don’t need the additional stress from NE.

    I’ve reported back to my manager, and now she is concerned, too. Not much I can do, but it feels good to be able to express this here.

    And managers? When one of your top performers says they are stressed and they need a pass on something just once, please listen. I’m really thinking at this point I might need a leave of absence once this is over. Hope FMLA covers it :(

      1. Have to be anon today...*

        No, I have to wonder if they paid some sort of employment agency a fee? Is that a thing? I’m puzzled by this whole situation, quite frankly.

        1. Natalie*

          If they went through an employment agency they almost certainly paid some kind of fee, but those placements are usually guaranteed for a year at least. If the employee leaves, the employment agency will either refund the fee or find a new placement at no charge.

    2. Queen of the File*

      One of the most frustrating things to watch at work is when the most capable people get piled on until they break. I’m sorry this is happening to you :(

    3. Samiratou*

      Any chance you could frame it up as NE not being a good fit with your training style (or your training style not being a great fit for NE) and perhaps someone else might be better to work with her?

      And, who knows, after all these months it may be that NE could use a different voice, even if it’s using basically the same words, to get over whatever mental block she seems to have set in front of herself to learn this stuff.

      Or she’s a lost cause and if it’s shown that multiple people are unable to get her where she needs to be TPTB can see that it’s not your fault that she’s having a hard time and they can choose to keep trying or see about moving her to a more suitable role or something like that.

      1. Have to be anon today...*

        NE has had some training from others, as well, I think this might be a bad fit. Not every person is suited for every job.

      1. Have to be anon today...*

        I just found out from a coworker that NE mentioned having a second offer at the time they accepted this one, and NE feels they made the wrong choice.

        1. Lora*

          Sounds like NE is correct.

          Honestly, whenever there’s a “NE HAS to work out, because of Reasons” it doesn’t have to be nepotism but it mostly is. Other notable instances:
          “We paid an immigration lawyer a lot of money and testified that we couldn’t find any qualified locals and if we have to hire our second favorite then we have to pay the market rate which we don’t wanna and also we will be in trouble for visa fraud.”
          “There is some sort of horrible time crunch thing which we are not authorized to let the peasantry know about, which is the reason we can’t afford another few months of recruiting and training.”

    5. JulieBulie*

      I got a taste of the “difficult trainee” thing this week and I’m still a little wound up about it. If I had to do this for months, I would be at my wit’s end.

      If you’re beating NE with a ruler then okay, I get the admonitions. But sheesh. No way should you be getting admonitions for having facial expressions. Not if your previous track record is clean and no one else has accused you of withering glances. Really, an iota of impatience ought to be par for the course.

      1. Have to be anon today...*

        LOL no ruler beatings! NE seems to be very sensitive, plus, instead of saying to me, you seem upset, she just bolts for a manager and complains. For the record, people want to work with me because I’m good at my job, handle things correctly and I have excellent communication skills. And seriously, if I am paired with NE if they stay, I’m going to ask for a transfer at the first possible moment. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells and maybe get botox treatments if I have to keep this up much longer.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ask the boss how much longer is allotted for training.
          Ask if you can send progress updates. This should include the questions she is asking and the rate of repetition.
          You can let the boss know that you will not be answering the same questions over and over because that is tantamount to you doing the work yourself which is not the point. You will be asking her to refer to her notes or recall the answer you gave the last time.

          I think that she is getting to the boss before you do and somehow you need to be the one reporting her progress. This should include the number and length of cry times.

          1. JulieBulie*

            Excellent advice. You still have your own work to do, I assume, so it’s not fair if you’re also training NE AND doing NE’s work.

            It would definitely be illuminating to document the number of times that NE flees in the middle of a session and the length of absence. You probably don’t need to mention the crying, though.

  107. ceelcee*

    Question for academics and anyone hiring interns/requesting letters of recommendation. I am a relatively new assistant professor and have had several students ask for letters of recommendation. I’m looking for tips on how to go about writing these letters in a way that is helpful to the students and to those receiving the letters.

    So far, these are students I know fairly well and feel comfortable recommending, so my issue is not so much what to write, but more the style. I don’t want to be too modest and end up hurting students’ chances compared to others, but I also don’ want to go overboard or exaggerate. Calibration on tone/style would be greatly appreciated.

    1. No Name Yet*

      After awhile, all letters start to sound alike, so adding in specifics about why student A stands out can be helpful. A coworker and I recently agreed that someone saying a student is in the top X% of students you’ve worked with has more meaning than just “they were fantastic.” Though if you’re relatively new, that may carry less weight. Writing letters is tough!

      1. ceelcee*

        Thank you, that makes sense. I agree about letters sounding alike. That’s what I would like to avoid, as much as possible.

      2. ladydoc*

        I would talk to other professors in your field about standards in recommendation letters in your area. In my very specific field of academic medicine, there is some language that sounds neutral or good but is actually polite code for “run away screaming.” Milquetoast adjectives strung together like “pleasant, punctual, interested” are basically a way of saying “showed up with a pulse and didn’t commit a felony.” Language like No Name Yet suggested is much more helpful; also describe the students’ achievements and successes rather than describe their character traits. It’s kind of like a writing a resume–show, don’t tell. Also, if you’ve really worked closely with a student, emphasize the length and breadth of your association. A letter means more coming from a faculty member who worked for a year with a student on a community outreach project or research than from a faculty member who gave the student a lecture class, so highlight that when possible.

        1. ceelcee*

          Thank you. Ah, I know exactly what you mean about the code. I will make sure to avoid those (when I don’t mean them).

      3. The New Wanderer*

        What happens if the student requesting a letter is good but not great? I mean, it’s likely a professor will be asked to write letters for more than just the top 10% of their students, but you can’t darn them with faint praise even if you also can’t say they were truly outstanding.

        It probably also matters whether you are writing the letters for academia or providing references for industry. Industry doesn’t necessarily recognize the ‘code’, or at least my company didn’t when they hired someone whose advisor would not have written a sincerely glowing letter (or provided a similar glowing reference).

    2. Dr. Doll*

      You didn’t ask this, but you’re going to find out really soon — good letters take a HUGE amount of time, so begin to think about policies. Eg: I will only write 5 letters per year, first come first served. In order for me to write you a letter, you must provide the following at least 4 weeks in advance (last minute amazing opportunities can be excepted): resume, statement of purpose, exact inside address, exact directions, etc etc. You must draft the letter and I will edit it. ….whatever makes sense, but think about it. You need to streamline and set limits. You can actually google policies about recommendation letters from professors.

      Sadly, you don’t get tenure credit for writing awesome letters.

  108. The New Wanderer*

    Quick question – I have to give a 45 minute talk about myself and my previous work for an interview. The company makes a particular high tech device that we happen to own and use. In particular my kids love it. Would it be cute/appropriate or pandering/inappropriate to use pics of them using the device as part of the talk?

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Personally, I think just a quick mention that you family uses it and loves it would be OK. I wouldn’t necessarily share pictures. The talk is about you and your work.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Well, I could see a slide (assuming you have slides) where its like 3 or 4 pics altogether of them using the device as part of your personal intro, before you get into work stuff (“…and here’s me and my lovely family, which now includes DEVICE that my kids can’t get enough of.”) Just as a quick thing.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        It will be a powerpoint talk. I think I can make it a bit about work (part of my motivation for working at this company). I’d be tying it to a quick point about designing for the next generation of users (cue single slide w/ 1-2 pics), which is one of the job tasks.
        I think my hesitation was more along the lines of “should I bring my personal life into this at all?” since it’s still an interview and not “introducing the new hire.”

        1. JulieBulie*

          Maybe don’t mention that they’re your kids? Chances are, someone will ask, and then you can say yes.

        2. Thlayli*

          I think you’re saying that the role you are interviewing for actually includes work on developing this specific product?
          If so I think it is relevant information that you already have experience using this product with your own children. So I think a single slide stating you have used this product with your children since 20xx is relevant. I don’t think pictures add more info then that so it kind of depends on the time of the rest of the presentation whether it would be appropriate to include photos of the kids (and you perhaps) playing with the product.
          Also make sure you actually spend some time with your kids and the product in advance of interview and in particular consider how it could be improved.

  109. The Other Dawn*

    I’m curious as to whether anyone other than me thinks this is weird.

    I have an employee who has getting medical tests done recently for a possible thyroid condition. I got an email yesterday from her doctor saying how Sally is so nice and polite (she is!), has the highest drive to excel at work, and she’s a joy as a patient and is so impressed with her. Then it goes on to say that normally other patients of his with this condition (he names it) are irritable and asking not to work, but that Sally isn’t doing that.

    This came off as really weird to me. First of all because he tells me her medical condition. Yes, I knew she was getting testing done to get a diagnosis, but it still seemed weird. Second, it has the tone of “you should be grateful she comes to work.” And last, there’s no possible way he could’ve gotten my email unless Sally gave it to him: we work back office, our names aren’t on the website, and my name is spelled different than it sounds. Obviously she gave it to him, but that makes me wonder did she ask for that email to be sent to me, or did the doctor ask her if he could email me?

    I’m not planning on doing anything with it. I’m just curious what other people thing, since I sometimes (*cough*) jump to conclusions or read into benign things.

    1. KatieKate*

      That’s…very weird. I would mention it to Sally, because if she didn’t sign off on it, it might be a HIPAA violation

      1. Thlayli*

        This. It’s possibly illegal for the doc to talk to you about her condition without her permission. She may have provided the email at the doctors request thinking it was for some other purpose (though I struggle to think what) and she should really be informed the doc has told you this info, just in case it was done without her knowledge.
        I think it’s more likely it was done with her knowledge though in which case I personally would react to the letter by saying something like “we are very happy to have you here” or similar.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      My guess would be she asked him to send it as some sort of unofficial doctor’s note. Maybe she’s struggling more than she seems and she wanted him to share how hard she’s pushing to excel at work. It is weird that he didn’t preface it with an explanation that she asked him to contact you. I would bring it up with her in case he didn’t get her permission.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Yeah, I feel like she asked him to send it, as she’s been out for appointments and such quite a bit. Maybe she worries that I hold that against her, which i don’t; I’m pretty laid back and never give anyone a hard time about that stuff.

        Oh, and he also says I “should shake her hand.”

    5. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Super weird. It does seem like she might have given him your email, but…yeah, super weird.

    6. paul*

      That is weird as hell. And unless she asked for him to do so, incredibly unprofessional of the doctor.

    7. K, Esq.*

      I’d address it. “Hey Sally, I received a strange email from your doctor telling me about your thyroid condition. I don’t need the details of your private medical visits to approve time off, and want to make sure you know that. Can you tell me a little more about why it was sent?”

    8. Trillian*

      That is really weird. My first reaction would be that it was sent by someone other than her doctor, but I guess that would be easy to determine. I feel like doctors in general are very resistant to getting involved in work excuses, etc.

      My husband had an employee who once visited urgent care and had them call him in sick that day. The guy had chronic attendance issues, so my husband first thought it must be a ploy of some sort. But no, caller ID confirmed the call was made from the urgent care center.

    10. Anon anon anon*

      If I received that, I would reply and copy Sally on it. Just a quick thank you, the goal actually being for Sally to be aware of what’s going on. Then I’d ask about it next time you see her.

  110. KatieKate*

    Somewhat work related

    I’ve been rewatching the show Parks and Rec, and I have just been appalled by the workplace norms on the show. One character is seen in a negative light for not wanting a boss and employee to date, and in the later seasons, it’s all about how all of the coworkers simultaneously love each other/treat each other poorly in and out of the office. I used to find the show endearing, but now Leslie is just getting on my nerves.

    1. Cat*

      I don’t think Chris was portrayed negatively for not wanting Ben and Leslie to date. I think the show was clear that one of them had to resign.

    2. Susan K*

      I was always bothered by the bullying of Jerry by characters who were otherwise portrayed as good and kind.

      1. Queen of the File*

        Me too! I enjoyed the show (suspension of disbelief etc.) but that was just never funny to me at all.

      2. CheeryO*

        Me too. They kind of made it up to us by the reveal that he had an amazing home life, but I still hated that meanness in an otherwise sweet show.

      3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        That’s what made the show unwatchable for me, actually. The Office worked because everyone was kind of awful to each other in various ways (some more than others, but still), but Parks and Rec was always portrayed as this very positive, hopeful show by its fans, so when I finally got around to watching it (after it was cancelled), I was pretty disappointed by the bullying there. Not the only reason I didn’t finish it, but it was the straw that broke the camel’s back after awhile because it just made it so hard to like any of the characters.

    3. periwinkle*

      AAM has ruined a lot of movies and TV shows. “No, that’s not how companies operate!” “Why are you dressed like that at work?” “That’s… that’s so unethical, why are we supposed to be cheering for you? And the company is rewarding your behavior?”

      There was once a wonderful blog written by an employment lawyer which chronicled the legal risks seen in episodes of The Office. There were a lot.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I love this show and despite the dysfunction, you will have to pry my love from my cold dead fingers. If it worked like a real, properly run office, it would be boring as hell.

      *rides off into the sunset on L’il Sebastian singing Mouse Rat songs*

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        +10000 I’ve worked in offices that were dysfuctional to the point of making Parks & Rec seem absolutely tame.

      2. Nugget*

        Yeah, I don’t think the show is trying to accurately portray a healthy office culture, I think it’s trying to be funny, and to me it succeeds. Ron Swanson forever.

    5. Nacho*

      I have the same problems with The Office, to the point where I just don’t watch that show anymore.

      1. Observer*

        I think that that’s far kinder than the email deserves.

        I’d honestly advocate firing anyone who put something like that into an email. Just SOOOO much bad judgement there. And that’s leaving aside the ethics of the matter.

      1. Observer*

        Yes, I saw it there.

        And, that’s an EXCELLENT question. I’m not impressed with the DNC’s response.

    4. Ann O.*

      The link is misleading. It wasn’t the job ad; it was an internal email for referrals.

      This is the progressive bubble. People who should know better just don’t think because they’re so secure in the rightness of what they’re doing. I completely understand why she wants non-cisgender white men referrals and to diversify her team, but so many people in social justice refuse to understand that wording matters. It makes a difference to encourage “please send to PoC/women” (or some phrasing) rather than say “don’t send to cisgender white men.”

      But this is not jaw dropping to me at all. I don’t know how I would address it, though.

      1. Observer*

        You really think this just a matter of “wording” and essentially no big deal?

        You really think it’s not shocking that someone involved in hiring says IN EMAIL that “I do not want to consider any people in xyz group”? Or is just because she said it about straight white males?

  113. Professional Cat Herder (Formerly Feeling Guilty and Confused)*

    Yesterday I had a phone screen with a recruiter that was only supposed to be 45 minutes, but we got off track talking about how much we both love cats and ended up talking for an hour, at which point I had to end the conversation because I had another meeting. I was so embarrassed that I had to go, especially since we hadn’t even finished going through my experience, but I was on my lunch and didn’t expect it to go that long. We have a follow-up call scheduled for Monday, though, which I think is a good sign!

    I also have an in-person interview for a position with a company I’ve been interviewing on and off with for four months (for different positions) on Monday, and I’m both so nervous and so excited! I know I generally present myself well in interviews, but this company has notoriously high standards and difficult interviews. Cross your fingers that everything goes well! Getting that job would mean being able to finally pay off my ridiculous debt and being able to save for the future.

  114. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

    My office allows parents to bring their babies to work from ages 0-6 months. I love the fact that right now all the babies on my floor have been brought by their fathers

      1. Thlayli*

        I saw a documentary about this. This is actually an allowed method of childcare in an increasing number of companies. It only really works until the child is able to crawl hence the 6 month cutoff.
        in he documentary I saw the parent was a contractor so she said she just didn’t bill for the time she spent minding the baby but I wonder how it works for salaried employees.
        It seems to me you would have to have the baby napping a lot during the day and sleeping less in the evening for it to work

  115. Buffy Summers*

    This is more rant than anything else. I apologize in advance.
    This week, I Did A Thing. There was an issue with some instructions that I didn’t understand and neither the Assistant Director, “Marigold”, nor I could come to a conclusion, so she suggested I send an email to our Grantor. I did and copied her and our Executive Director, “Lilly”.
    Shortly after sending it, I got a response from Lilly where she essentially dressed me down for Doing The Thing and said I was to consult with Marigold from now on before sending any emails to Grantor. She said asking that question threw up red flags and reaching out to them should be a last resort.
    I’m normally very non-confrontational, but I was very angry and fired back an angry email basically telling her I’d had enough of the micromanagement and being treated like a child. It was longer than that with more details, but I’ll spare ya’ll. :)
    Lilly called me shortly afterward to apologize for her email and for upsetting me. I accepted her apology, but now I am completely checked out at work. I cant’ drum up even an ounce of caring about my job or this organization. This has been a long time in the making. I will work and do my job well, but I’m done crying over this place and stressing about it every day and dreading coming in every Monday and worrying constantly about it. I’m actively job searching and have even begun taking some of my personal items home and I couldn’t care less who notices it. I’m completely and utterly done here.
    The rant is now over. Thank you for letting me share. :)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That sounds so frustrating! Did you tell Lilly that Marigold was the one who suggested you send the email? And did Marigold back you up?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      When people turn around and apologize immediately, it’s hard to come down off the ceiling with the same speed they used. Lilly needs to stop letting her emotions guide her decisions as a boss. No job is worth crying/stressing over. Very seldom do companies cry/stress over us. I think overall that your new vantage point is a good one and I think it will serve you for the rest of your time there.

      I hope you find a new and great place very soon!

  116. Anon forever*

    I now hate office potlucks, and we keep having them! I get that they want to celebrate various things and it is expensive to provide food for everyone, but then why not just have pizza and cake? We recently had a potluck and most of the more senior people came to eat the food but did not bring any. Some actually cut the line because they were vegetarian and wanted to make sure to get the food that they could eat. If you don’t bring food, you should eat last regardless of dietary restrictions! I don’t want to participate in them anymore. I have started scheduling things that I know will conflict so that I have an excuse to not go.

    1. kas*

      I’ve always hated them because I don’t like to eat food from my coworkers. I wonder if they washed their hands before cooking, if the pots/pans/etc. that they used were clean, etc. If I’m forced to participate I buy a fruit platter or dessert and I only eat things that people purchased and were sealed.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      I’ve always hated them because of cleanliness issues (backstory on that 1 at a former job) and food allergies. A person at church assured me her dessert was “allergy friendly”. She though that because she had baked it the walnuts wouldn’t cause an allergic reaction. She didn’t mean harm and had no idea that baking walnuts wouldn’t mean you wouldn’t have an allergic reaction.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Groan. Why on earth would she think that?

        I don’t like potluck either. It’s difficult for me because I have a long commute. And I don’t especially like eating other people’s food. And some people get weird about it if someone else’s dish was more popular than theirs. It’s like all the awkwardness of other work-related social stuff, plus all of the awkwardness around food.

    3. Artemesia*

      I don’t get upper management expecting the peons to feed them. At my workplace the management brought things like a roast chicken, a spiral ham, a bucket of KFC i.e. the big protein and the peons brought salads and desserts and weird bean salads for the vegans etc etc. Some years they just gave the AA a bunch of money and she ordered in main course type things which were then augmented by staff bringing salads and desserts. Worked pretty well; only happened twice a year; no obvious moochers.

  117. Me--Blargh!*

    Salary questions at application. Dear employers–STOP IT.

    I applied for something yesterday that forced me to enter a number for starting and ending salary for each job (also, damn filling out applications when I’ve already submitted a resume). I usually put $0.00; it satisfies the bots and you can proceed without disclosing. Well, I did this, and after I logged out, the system emailed me back, “YOU MUST COMPLETE THIS APPLICATION BY ENTERING YOUR SALARY INFORMATION.” >_< I had to log back in and enter it. Fine–my last job paid me more than they probably will, so there goes that one.

    Today, I applied for a legal assistant position. I'm guessing that because they said previous legal experience was not required, it probably doesn't pay much, although it seems to be an executive support position. (But it emphasized proofreading and editing, at which I rock.) One of the app questions through Indeed was "Please provide your most recent annual salary as well as the annual salary you are hoping for in our position."
    *facepalm*
    I stole an answer from a comment on an AAM post last year and put, "I’d like to learn more about the specifics of the position and [company] before we discuss that."

    Stop. Asking. Me. About. Salary. When. You. Know. Nobody. Pays. Shit. Around. Here. Just tell me what the range is.

    /end rant

    On the bright side, I donated $50 to the Hispanic Federation on Wednesday. Some of that was my own money from a software refund, but the rest was from the stories ebook. Thank you to everyone who bought a copy! It will still be available on my blog if you want one.

    1. Donna Carroll*

      You mentioned before that you might want to relocate, and I’ve been reading your updates, and we have an opening at my company that you might be a fit for based on the positions I’ve heard you mention… It’s in Florida… Would this be a viable location?

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Oh Donna, that’s so kind of you. I really want to go back to California. I don’t think I would do well in Florida at all, or the entire southeastern U.S., for that matter. But thank you so much for thinking of me.

        1. Donna Carroll*

          It’s okay, just wanted to pass it along :) Good luck in your search, I hope you make it to Cali!

    2. Anon Accountant*

      And if the range wasn’t acceptable to candidates then they wouldn’t waste time applying nor the company interviewing them.

  118. CryingOverSpiltMilk*

    Some internal politics at work have stressed me out to the point of tears. There have been tears in the office, there have been tears at home. I’m taking anxiety pills, but still can’t figure out how to work in this environment or shake this off. I feel confident that going to HR will makes things worse, but I am considering calling the number for EAP. My question: will the EAP counselor tell HR what’s going on?
    Stats: been in this job for 17.5 years, making a high salary with fantastic benefits, and even if I wanted to leave (I don’t), I don’t think I could easily find anything else. I need to make this work for another 15 years or so.

    1. SeaSalt*

      In my company, EAP won’t tell HR anything. I think just provide stats on what services are utilized, but not by whom or why.

    2. Susan K*

      Your best bet is probably to look at the EAP’s information (e.g., their web site) or even just ask the EAP counselor, but I think it is pretty universal that an EAP is supposed to be completely confidential, and they absolutely should not share any information about what you tell them with your employer (with the exception of if they think you are a danger to yourself or others, like if you say you want to hurt a coworker or something).

    3. Haley*

      I can’t answer as to EAP, but have you considered discussing this with a therapist? I know therapists definitely are used to listening to workplace stressors, and maybe it will reveal other factors as to why the office politics going on is getting to you so personally and ways to figure out how to emotionally detach a little bit or refocus on something else (like meditation techniques).

    4. NacSacJack*

      Right there with you Crying. Its frustrating to hear, “Oh just find another job” when that isnt going to work due to age, benefits or fantastic salary. We need to know what will help us function at this job so we can work in the next 15-20 years.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Okay maybe you could not easily find something else, how about if you worked at it? Just because it’s not easy is not the same as saying it’s not doable. I am not saying this with snark, I am saying this with sincere concern for your health. Another 15 years of this crap you may not have any health left. Is it worth it to you?

      This job sounds like a trap. A trapped human being or for that matter a trapped animal is going to be panicky, anxious and so on. What good is all this money and bennies if you have to spend it all on healing your body?

      To your question: I have never trusted EAP. At least in this area. I assumed that it works its way back to TPTB. I read somewhere that courts can order EAP records. Maybe that is no longer true. I think a hand picked private counselor is the route to go.

  119. SeaSalt*

    Do I say thank you for getting a raise? Our company has had budget cuts this year and there was no cost of living raise. There was a small pool for merit-based raises and to bring some salaries up to market standard. I received a letter at home letting me know I received a raise (I assume merit-based, my salary is ok comparative to other companies here.).

    I don’t know who vouched for me, my former boss, our new VP who I report to directly, or our president (or dept reports directly to her.). Do I need to say thank you and to whom?

    1. CAA*

      You really don’t need to thank anyone.

      If you want to, then the person to thank is the VP to whom you now report directly. Keep it simple, don’t go overboard or make a big deal about it. Just say something like, “I got the letter about my raise. Thanks very much, it’s really appreciated.” If the VP replies with something like “your former boss really made a great case for you”, then you can also extend similar thanks to that person next time you see her.

  120. Changing Industries?*

    Hi all! Sad news: my office (a satellite location of our larger company) will be closing its office space next summer. More info is to come about possible remote work or commuting to the larger office a bit more than an hour away. Some roles may be allowed to telecommute full-time and others may have a mixed telecommute/in office schedule. Due to my specific role, I doubt I will be allowed full telecommuting and I’m not really interested in commuting 3+ hours by transit even on a once or twice weekly basis. So I may need to start job searching in the new year and I only started earlier this year (April).

    So on to my question: if in fact I decide to leave, how should I explain such a short stint on my resume? I don’t want to let the public know the office is closing in case word gets out, so how do I explain my desire to leave? On a related note, how have people who have successfully changed industries convinced hiring managers to give them a chance? My industry is small and mostly located in the larger city, so options for staying in my city in my industry are slim. I would need to make a case for myself in entirely new industries and my previous job search wasn’t successful in this area (I was job searching for over a year before this opportunity in my city and industry fell into my lap). Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Winger*

      Discussing your reasons for leaving a previous job with a new hiring manager is not exactly the same thing as letting the public know the office is closing, but I see your concern. You can always say that your specific role or job function or group is no longer located at that office, and you don’t want a longer commute.

  121. Blue Anne*

    Monday, mid-morning, a few of my colleagues were having a conversation in the middle of our small cube farm about weddings. One of them, who breeds dogs, started talking about a lesbian couple who had one of her dogs and had sent her pictures of their dogs in the wedding. She said it was “hard for her to see that”, that she “doesn’t approve of what they’re doing”, that they’re “nice girls” and she is polite to their faces because she’s not the one who has to “answer for it”, they’re the ones who will have to “answer for it.”

    It was pretty upsetting, not just that she said that stuff but that she felt so sure everyone would agree with her that she felt comfortable loudly proclaiming it in the middle of our office, and with our boss in the conversation. My office only has a dozen people in it, and they’re all more conservative than me, but she’s the only Trump voter. I’m the only queer. But everyone assumes I’m straight because I’m a woman engaged to a man.

    I was so upset that I went home around 1 PM. I stopped in my boss’s office to let him know why I was leaving, came out to him to drive the point home, and unfortunately rage-cried a little bit while I was in there, which was very embarrassing. He said “Oh, okay” a few times. (I do like my boss a lot, honestly.) I’ve had the words “answer for it” ringing in my ears all week.

    When I came in the next day (Tuesday) he said that he was thinking about what, if anything, he needed to do, and asked me what I would like to see done. We haven’t talked about it since then.

    I have no clue what I want. I don’t want an apology, because it would certainly be insincere and would probably make Trump Fan just resent me for being the PC Police. I don’t want sensitivity training or whatever HR type stuff. I just don’t know. I want to go back to feeling safe in my office.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Thank you, Murphy. <3

        It was at least good to see that my boss was completely okay with me going home for this reason.

    2. Temperance*

      So I’m straight but I spend a lot of time with LGBT folks and many of my friends are gay/lesbian/queer. Because of my privilege, I would have called her out to the point of making her uncomfortable. I like feigning ignorance when people say such aggressively hateful and stupid things.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Okay, but no one did call her out. I don’t know what to do now.

        I really wish someone had called her out. That’s what’s making me feel so uncomfortable, really, that she had a receptive audience in… all of my colleagues.

        1. Temperance*

          They might have been too shocked to respond. I’m kind of a weirdly confrontational person, and most are not.

          I would talk to your boss about it, and request that he set the hatemonger straight about how she is not to express hateful opinions at work.

        2. Ann O.*

          Could you tell if they were truly receptive or freezing? I almost always freeze when someone busts out discriminatory speech in front of me. (I’m working on being better about this, but it’s often so shocking and unexpected and a little bit scary).

          If you think it’s likely they were freezing, you may be able to speak quietly to them about it and strategize together about what to do should there be a next time.

          If you’re unsure or if think it’s likely they were receptive, I don’t know. :(

          I’m sorry this is happening. That’s a hard situation.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m so sorry :(

      I think it would be worth it for him to have a conversation with the offender about how inappropriate her comments were and warn her that if she does it again, there will be disciplinary action. He can do that without acknowledging who made the complaint.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah, I’m kind of going back and forth about this… I would like SOMETHING to happen and I think this is the best option? But on the other hand, it’s not like it would change her mind, I would still know exactly how she feels, except now (knowing her) she would also be seething about being told to shut up. And she’s worked here since the year I was born… everyone else has worked here at least 5 years… I came in a year ago. She would know it was me. :/

        1. Kathenus*

          I understand what you’re saying, but suggest reframing the goal as getting her to not say these things at work. You’re not going to change her mind, that’s not why she should be spoken to. She needs to know that these types of comments are inappropriate at work, hard stop. It would be great it she had some kind of epiphany that she shouldn’t make these comments at all, but that’s out of your and your work’s scope to deal with. I second asking your boss to say something to her, that’s the culture he should be cultivating at work. Sorry that you have to deal with hurtful things like this. I have LGBT friends and family and know that they still deal with this on a regular basis too. Be part of the solution and try to get your little corner of the world at work improved by asking your boss to address this. Little by little a difference can be made. Good luck.

    4. Anony McAnonface*

      I like to think of it in terms of how it would play if the offender said it about any other minority. “Oh, the Jews/Muslims/black people will have to answer for it one day.” Like…no. That would not fly. So it should not fly for LGBTQ people either. She should be told that statements negatively denigrating minority groups is not allowed in the office. Also, I’m very sorry you have to work with a mean-spirited jerkface.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I understand this impulse but I think it’s important to remember that in many circles and workplaces, it is still completely acceptable to make these kinds of comments about many different marginalized groups.

    5. Haley*

      I know you’re concerned about seeming like PC police – but this isn’t merely someone speaking to their friend at a coffee shop, or even blogging online – this is at a workplace and her comments made a colleague feel unsafe. Don’t kick yourself if you decide not to, but I think you are definitely owed a response whether it’s sensitivity training or just a office wide e-mail reminding people that it will not be tolerated and makes the workplace unsafe.

    6. Mephyle*

      It was “hard for her to see that,” and she felt safe and open to let everyone around her know. And it was just as hard or harder for you to hear that, but you felt you had to bite your tongue and no one knows how upsetting it it was except your boss. [Aside, please don’t feel that it was embarrassing or unfortunate that the boss saw your raw emotion. It sounds like it helped impress him on how serious this was.] Anyway, back to the main thread. Why does she get to be open and you have to stifle it? Maybe feeling safe means that you get to be open and she has to stuff a sock in it and be polite.
      And as for an apology, since she’s unlikely to change her views, maybe a “sorry I upset you” type of apology is in order, if she can at least say that sincerely. As abhorrent as her views are, I would think even less of her if her attitude was “so I upset her? Well she deserves it, if she is one of those” than if she was actually sorry. But if there’s a good chance it would turn out to be the former and the latter, it would be better not to poke a stick into that issue.

      1. Mephyle*

        I meant to write “…if there’s a good chance it would turn out to be the former and not the latter…”

    7. Trillian*

      I’m not sure if I’ll be around long enough to see this, but I really hope one day that the traits we are born with (ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc) become non -issues and uninteresting. I keep telling my teenage daughters that they and their future children are part of the generations that will end up eradicating ignorance from the face of this planet. Eventually the attitudes of people like the woman in this story will be phased out. I’m not saying that it’s the only solution but it is my hope that if we can’t stop the ignorance, our children and their children will. One of my daughters is a lesbian and what she faces in her life is already light years ahead of what her experience would have been if she went to high school in my era. Hopefully the progressive trend continues as these youth grow into adults and raise children of their own.

    8. Kewlmom*

      I am so very sorry that you had to experience her hatefulness. What would be even more concerning to me than her bigoted mindset is that she apparently felt comfortable expressing these sentiments in your office, in front of your boss, and what that says about the office culture. Clearly she did not feel comfortable betraying her bias in front of the couple to whom she sold the dog, so she knows enough to keep her prejudices to herself in her other workplace. The fact that no one called her out on it in the office speaks volumes. I would have hoped that your boss would have shut it down in the moment, or if not then, would have addressed it with her one-on-one after the fact, and would have been able to tell you he thought it was inappropriate as well, and had already spoken to her. IMO allowing this bias to go unchallenged in the workplace is tacit approval and tantamount to fostering a culture of prejudice.

  122. Lumos*

    Lost out on a promotion this week. Slightly bitter because the interview questions were awful. They ask the same questions for both internal and external candidates, so about half of them are wasted on an internal candidate (what do you know about us? for example) Only about one of the questions tied to the actual position. ;-; I’m doing my best to not internalize this, I know there were at least twelve candidates for 3 positions, but I was really bothered that I didn’t even have an opportunity to discuss my relevant skills unless I used the entire time I had for questions.

    1. Susan K*

      Yeah, that sucks. Something similar happened to me recently. At the end of the interview, when it was my turn to ask questions, I asked what the top priorities would be for this position. The manager told me, and these were things that were right up my alley, and that I had demonstrated success in doing even in my current (lower) role… But he hadn’t asked any questions addressing these top priorities of his! Instead, he asked a bunch of general behavioral interview questions like, “Tell me about a time you disagreed with your manager,” and “Tell me about a time you failed to meet a goal.”

  123. jnsunique*

    Hi all, one of the things I love about this blog is that when I have a tough question, I imagine what I would write in a letter to Alison, and then I imagine what her response might be and that is so helpful! But here is my tough question. I have an employee on an PIP. He just isn’t getting it. He’s an experienced Sr. Engineer, and we’re paying him well. He’s good at some thing like calling vendors for quotes and getting parts ordered, but terrible at documentation (uploads wrong files, takes 14 months to copy and paste 28 documents, etc). He requires a lot more help and training than he should and when he self-directs his work he picks really strange priorities, like having vendors come in and quote equipment we don’t need or already have. There’s a couple of things that he just fundamentally doesn’t understand (but everyone else on our team, engineer and non-engineer does). I think that he thinks that the work is difficult, or that I’m too demanding. Any advice on kind ways to say that I don’t think he’s bright enough for the job? I have plenty of examples of things he doesn’t get after repeated attempts, but he’s only been here 20 months and it feels like some of it might be because I didn’t train him on it. I can’t remember what he should know and what he wouldn’t, and I keep second-guessing myself in an attempt to be fair.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think that saying he’s not bright enough for the job can be done kindly–but I also don’t think it can be done usefully. It’s not quantifiable information, and it’s not helpful to either of you. The upshot is that he’s not doing the job to the required standard, despite having clear guidance on what’s needed to improve in his performance, and therefore he can’t stay in this job. How do you want to handle transitioning him out? Do you want to give him time to leave of his own accord, or can you offer him severance if you need him to terminate him quickly? What do you want to do with his reference?

      1. jnsunique*

        Thanks – I’m really just frustrated. HR is really pushing the message that we want him to succeed and that’s why we’re putting him on the plan. We have a good HR dept and they have a process that I’ll follow – at the 30 day review, if there isn’t enough improvement the plan continues for another period, and if there is, the plan completes. They offer severance based on years of service if we choose to terminate.

        1. Argh!*

          So after 20 months how much severence would he get? A month?

          I really hope you’re spelling things out. He’s not stupid. He’s disorganized. There’s a huge difference, and if he can’t organize himself you need to help him.

          I tend to be more hands-off but I supervise one person with extremely poor self-management skills. He regularly missed deadlines and made a lot of mistakes. Now I give him earlier deadlines and a chance to fix mistakes by the actual deadline. He doesn’t like being mommied but he can’t mommy himself (after many more years of trying than your supervisee has had) so that’s how it is.

          Oddly, his hatred of being nagged has gotten him to manage himself a bit better, so over time (i.e., years) it’s gotten better.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’m going to disagree with “if he can’t organize himself you need to help him.” In some cases that might make sense, but in a lot of cases it’s reasonable to decide you need someone in the role who doesn’t require that level of hand-holding.

            (Also, in jnsunique’s case, it sounds like the problems go well beyond that.)

          2. jnsunique*

            Here’s an example of one of his mistakes:
            He’s adding a vacuum to a machine. The parts came in and didn’t fit the machine. The fix he proposed would seal the vacuum nozzle off, essentially making it useless. When I pointed it out to him he confessed he didn’t know how it worked. I hadn’t either at first, but I’d asked someone to explain it to me. It’s his project, I’d expect him to figure out how it worked before trying to install it!

            Multiple times he’s uploaded wrong work instructions, and he doesn’t seem to find it important. If it were me, I’d go back and check all my work, not just apologize and let someone else fix it.

            He’s bad enough that employees in other departments avoid him when they can, and frequently come to me to confirm what he’s doing because they suspect he might be doing something wrong.

            1. Argh!*

              Oh yeah, then if it’s a lack of understanding actual engineering things, that’s different. Your original post made it sound like organization is most of the problem.

              If HR won’t support your attempt to get rid of him (my boss wouldn’t support me in the least with my problem employee) you may have to learn to be a micromanager. It sucks being the kind of boss I would hate to report to but I’m blamed for all my supervisee’s mistakes, so I do what I have to.

    2. Observer*

      Why do you want to tell him that he’s not bright enough for the job? You don’t know that it’s true, and it doesn’t matter anyway.

      Here is what you need to tell him: “You are not doing these things correctly. >insert list<. These things are requirements, and are non-negotiable." If he tries to argue you can point out that others DO get x, y and z, but do so ONLY ONCE. After that, it's "There are the requirements of the job. If you cannot meet the requirements, this job is not for you." Broken record time.

    3. Argh!*

      Are the things that he doesn’t “understand” written down or simply unwritten practices? He probably has no idea what other people do, nor should he. Only a manager can see that. You can’t compare him to other people, only to a written and well-documented, well-communicated standard that you’re sure he understands.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      He is not understanding the needs of the job or the employer, he does things that are not necessary.
      He has difficulty understanding what is a priority and what is of value to the group’s effort.
      He does not double check his work.
      He does not meet deadlines.

      As a supervisor, I would double check myself to make sure I am not causing this in some manner. I might find a couple things I could beef up. But it seems to me that he does not really understand the work. Did his credentials check out when he was hired? Does he have the quals he says he has? Twenty months is a long time to be still unfamiliar with the job. I would wonder if he was winging it and hoping for the best.

  124. Fake old Converse shoes*

    It’s recruiter season over here. What’s the most bizarre experience you ever had with a recruiter? I get lots of emails addressed to my father (let’s call him Mr battered cheap loafers) because they never consider the possibility of a woman in this field. There’s always one that spams with random keywords that don’t make sense together, but that’s super common.

    1. Susan K*

      I had two different recruiters try to recruit me for the job I left. I guess they saw that I had the exact qualifications they wanted, but failed to notice the fact that my last position was the same title and at the same company as the job for which they were recruiting.

  125. Roseberriesmaybe*

    I accidentally sprayed my very nice coworker with juice while peeling a grapefruit. I felt bad but I also laughed! Please share your benign faux pas

    1. Amber Rose*

      I was talking to Jim on the phone. I then went to talk to James, who I have worked with for three years, and called him Jim by accident. -_-

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I tripped and spilled coffee inside my coworker’s bag. I was mortified, but nothing got damaged and she very cheerfully told me she does stuff like that all the time.

    3. Effie, who is fine*

      My first day training at a dance studio, I spilled my drink all over my boss’s desk. Her computer and other electronics were safe and she was super chill about it, saying she’d been waiting for the moment it would happen since she always had open drinks on her desk.

    4. Fake old Converse shoes*

      I still mix up my coworkers’ names, and we’ve been together for about six months

    5. Victoria, Please*

      Every class I teach, there will be two students that I simply.cannot.keep.straight. Me: “Matt — I mean Denny” Him: I’m Matt, actually. Me: “Gosh, sorry! Matt!!” Note to self, Matt has the curly red hair and Denny has the straight red hair. Next day: Me: “Here’s your paper, Matt.” Him: I’m, uh, Denny.

      Every blessed time. It usually becomes a class joke.

  126. Overeducated*

    Hey good news for once! I got a title change! My title is one that is accurate for the public sector but sounds much more entry level in the private sector because of the different ways the same words are used. Given that my moat likely job prospects after this contract are private sector, that is baaaad.

    Two months ago I requested a change to a new title two others I know on similar contract s have that translates my level of responsibility better. It was finally aplroved, and my boss said I can use it retroactively for my full contract! Woohoo!

  127. Bossy Magoo*

    Let’s say you’ve been contacted, unsolicited, by a recruiter for a phone screening interview for a job for which you don’t know the details, just that it’s similar to what your job title is now. You agree to the phone call because why not. On the phone recruiter asks for your salary requirements and without knowing what the job is you say you wouldn’t consider leaving your current position for less than $x.

    If you end up progressing through the interview process and then want to ask for more money after hearing more about the job, is that still legit? Or would you have limited yourself to what you said you wouldn’t leave your current job for?

    1. OldJules*

      The only time negotiation stops is when you sign the dotted line. Once they make you the offer, you can always say, “Based on my understand of the position requirements and the market, I would like to ask for a base salary of X”

  128. UniqueNewYork*

    I’m looking for some advice on the best way to reach out to someone for career advice/questions. This week I came across an article in my industry association’s magazine, and the author of one of the submitted stories is doing something in our industry that is fairly unique and may be exactly what I’ve been looking to get into. I’d love to learn more about how they got to where they are other than what’s on their Linkedin and Company page, but I have no idea how to randomly contact this stranger. Do I ask questions? Do I wait to ask my questions until they respond? Do I send a Linkedin message (we’re not connected) or would an email be better? Any advice is appreciated :)

    2. periwinkle*

      “Hi Cersei –

      Recently I read your article in the International Teapot Journal about the effect of minted cocoa on textured glazing. I was excited to see that your work focused on cocoa residue research because it’s an unique specialization in our field, and one I am interested in pursuing as well. Would you be willing to answer a few questions about your work and how you moved into that research area?”

      Something along those lines, perhaps. I’ve cold-emailed authors in my field and they’re usually eager to talk shop. I’ve also been the one contacted after giving presentations and have felt quite flattered and happy to talk about the subject more.

  129. Lissa*

    Anyone have any weird/funny complaints about by customers or clients? I used to work in food/coffee shops and had some strange experiences. I think the most WTF was when a customer complained to my manager about my voice being annoying and squeaky! because I can totally change the pitch of my voice and so could reasonably be disciplined for it…

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My BFF works at Starbucks. She once had someone come through the drive through and buy a banana. That was it. Just a banana.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Customer: those security tags damage the clothes, why don’t you put them in the wash label?

      Me: unfortunately they have to go through the clothes as a deterrent to shoplifters. I’m sorry, I agree it would be better not to have to use them.

      Customer complains to my manager that I accused her of shoplifting. I. What.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Oh and after the episode of Lost where the polar bear appeared, my friend – who worked for a local council in south west England – got a call from someone wanting to know what to do if a polar bear suddenly appeared. She had to reassure them that, yes, they could phone the council if that happened before they would get off the phone.

  130. Qwerty*

    Today in trash workplace advice: Dear Prudence advises someone who has an employee that has made complaints about sexual harassment in the workplace that he feels is “marginal” sexual harassment. Prudence’s advice starts by saying that she needs to get over it, and then advises that she will probably sue the company.

    With all of the sexual harassment stories coming out of Hollywood recently, this advice really rubbed me the wrong way. Just because no one else has complained in the workplace doesn’t mean that it isn’t a toxic workplace. And I feel like her advice just plays into the notion that women should just put up with some harassment in the workforce, lest they be labeled a whiner. I don’t even know why I read Prudence anymore, I find a lot of her advice to either be rather non-insightful.

    Link in comment

    2. Emi.*

      I mean … old Prudence was just terrible. She gave shallow, heartless, and totally useless advice. (New Prudence seems less terrible to me, but still not exactly useful or helpful.)

    3. fposte*

      Not that it hugely changes what you’re saying, but you saw it was over three years old, right? The “Today” phraseology made me wonder.

        1. Ann O.*

          I was so shocked. I was like, nuPru would NOT do that. That’s totally an old Pru type of response.

          And sure enough…

          This is why even though I agree Mallory can be really weak on workplace questions, I consider her a huge upgrade overall over old Pru.

    4. Temperance*

      I honestly hate NuPru. She’s amazingly unqualified to talk about the workplace, marriage, and anything relating to the law, and yet, she keeps doing it.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        This wasn’t new Prudie. It was old Prudie.

        Honestly I thought Prudie was totally solid yesterday, so I was surprised by this comment and went looking only to discover the letter being referenced is from 2014!!!!

      2. strawberries and raspberries*

        I’ll take that over Old Prudence, who would happily see rapists walking free for fear that some paranoid woman didn’t “ruin their lives” (in addition to her advice, she’s written multiple op-ed pieces on that very subject).

        1. H.C.*

          I think that’s her arguments to the extreme, her more nuanced point was that colleges’ adjudication systems are flawed in dealing with sexual assault matters, to the detriment of both the victim and the accused.

    6. Headachey*

      This looks like a column from the old Prudie, Emily Yoffe, who often had problematic, judgmental advice on anything related to sexual harassment/assault. I’ve found new Prudie Mallory Ortberg to be far more reasonable.

  131. Amber T*

    I meant to post this earlier but the morning got away from me!

    I posted last week about asking great grand boss for a raise. Well… it didn’t go so well. I wanted to discuss my new responsibilities I was given after some adjustments in my department and compensation for it. I got one sentence out (basically what I just said above) and great grand boss accused me of attempting to become a C level partner overnight (I’m an associate). It definitely had a “you blasted millennials” vibe to it, which messed me up for the rest of the discussion. Because I haven’t “proved myself” (I beg to differ – and tried!) I’m not worthy of compensation discussion (I never had any salary bump when I went from general admin to specialized with a crap ton more responsibility). I’m grateful that grandboss said he’ll talk with great grandboss about my salary history… but we’ll see. I think a lot depends on what my raise will be for next year and how much additional work they expect me to take on (I’m basically taking over 90% of the director’s responsibilities and was told that wouldn’t change once someone new was hired). I spoke candidly with another coworker who is more experienced, and she recommended giving it a year, and if I’m still unhappy, start job hunting in early 2019. I think that’s the route I’m most likely going to take unless things start going downhill… then it’ll be early next year.

    Grawr.

      1. CatCat*

        Yeah, I don’t understand why you would wait, especially if the boss seemed hostile about having a reasonable discussion about compensation. Forget that noise.

    2. Blunt*

      Job hunt now. If your boss really appreciated your work there wouldn’t be an issue getting you more money. Leave ASAP.

  132. OldJules*

    Could people working in a software company environment share how it’s like? I am interviewing with a software company (about 300 employees so maybe not quite out of the start up size yet) and wondered if some of the things are normal. The recruiter said, “I don’t see you staying in that salary for long.” Implying that I could get salary increases mid year or adhoc. I’ve worked in large organization that that happens only at merit and promotions. He also implies that managers can walk into the CEO’s office and bounce of ideas. Kinda unheard of in my giant corporation. I mean I could talk to the CEO if something is important but to bounce of ideas? Not normally. Share and let us collectively envy you if it’s real :)

    1. Reba*

      My spouse got a 50% raise after half a year at their first coding job, but I don’t know that that’s normal ;). At almost 2 months into their current job, the manager has said he thinks Spouse was “misleveled” during their interview tests, i.e. their skills are greater than what was evidenced by the test problems and they will likely get bumped up to a new pay band at the quarterly review. Actually in both those cases Spouse was able to shine in the job in ways that maybe weren’t apparent from the skills test (which were obviously fine enough as they got the jobs), so it was like an informal probationary or tryout period.

      All of their work in software has been for companies smaller than yours and yes, those places are very “flat.” I have the impression that 1) flatness can have its own problems and 2) companies may believe or want to believe that they are more flat or transparent or whatever than they are in practice.

      Good luck with your interviews!

  133. Gina Linetti*

    A local company just posted two jobs I’m qualified for. One is an accounting manager job, the other a regular admin position.

    The job I’d really like is the accounting manager job, but I’ve been out of work for so long (going on a year and a half) that I feel I should jump at every available opportunity. Will applying for both jobs make me look unfocused or desperate?

    1. Fabulous*

      I would say apply to both jobs. I don’t know if you would write one or two cover letters, but if you do two, definitely reference that you’re applying to both and would like to be considered for either they think is the best fit.

    2. DBG*

      I would apply for accounting manager only and then you can say you are interested in both at the interview.

    3. OldJules*

      A year and a half is not long to be out. I’d recommend that you apply for the manager’s role.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      If you are qualified to be an accounting manager applying for it. Don’t apply for the admin job. If I saw you put in an application for both, I’d take you out of the Accounting Manager pile. I’d probably take you out of both piles because you’d look terrible unfocused.

  134. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    I’m really struggling to find jobs to apply to here in London and am hoping for some ideas. Per my visa, I’m limited to no more than 20 hours a week and no self-employment. My class schedule is also a bit awkward–I’m in class all day on Mondays and Fridays, and I also have a class Thursday afternoon/early evening. I’m signed up with Unitemps and am checking various job boards like Indeed, but I just can’t do the schedules, or they want more hours than I’m allowed to do. My skills are generally clerical, and while I’m not hopeless at retail, I can’t stand for very long and can’t lift much or bend frequently, which is limiting.

    Additionally, are tutoring companies here likely to hire people as employees or whatever the UK version of an independent contractor is? Similar ones in the US seem to hire people as independent contractors, which I can’t do, but I could tutor if I were an employee.

    Ideally I’d love a LIS-type position because that’s what I’m studying, but I also just kind of…need money, so I’m open to other things as well.

      1. Buu*

        I did something similar with a museum job in London when I was a student worked full time ish during holidays then weekends. I got my job via one of the chain temping agencies, yes it is customer service but it wasn’t too bad in general. Had a look and it already looks like one of the museums is hiring:

        https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/museum-visitor-experience-assistant/33464610?source=searchResults#/jobs/temporary?keywords=museum

        Looks like this role is a more fundraisy thing which may not be for you, but keep on eye on Reed, Gumtree and similar. If you can get work over half term or Christmas they may well let you carry on to Weekend work and the odd evening later shift.

  135. Ramona Flowers*

    One of the facilities staff in our building took their own life yesterday. I found out not long after replying to today’s post with the letter about suicide.

    I lost a colleague to suicide six years ago in a previous job. I know it sounds stupid but I guess I somehow just wasn’t expecting to have a similar experience again. Even though my life has been touched by suicide in many ways (and I’m an attempt survivor).

    I don’t really have a question. It just feels helpful to put this somewhere.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m so sorry. Do you know if your company will be providing any sort of counseling for the staff?

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        We have a really good EAP and have been encouraged to use it as needed, take time out, etc.

        At least I work with nice, sensitive people – managers told everyone when I was out at a thing but my colleagues made sure I was told and didn’t just hear in passing.

        Beats the previous workplace where I told my manager I needed time out to see the counsellor they’d got in after a colleague I had worked with in another office took his own life in a very public and upsetting way and all my manager said was “if you feel you must”.

        And he wondered why I quit not long after….

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Life is hard and it’s hard in ways we never anticipated. You’re right, who would anticipate having one colleague who committed suicide? Having two is mind-bending. Nothing prepares us and not too much reassures us. We just don’t know what struggles people are facing.

      You and your coworkers are in my thoughts.

  136. Yorick*

    How do you answer “why did you leave your last job?” if you were fired/asked to resign?

    Especially asking about job applications, where you won’t be able to provide explanation or context or say what you’ve learned or anything.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The general answer I have seen here is to say, “I was fired/asked to resign because of X. I learned my lesson and now I do Y instead. I regret it and will never repeat it.”

  137. Home Job Interview.*

    Has anyone heard of a job interview held at your home?
    1. It’s not a job that requires national security or someone’s welfare (not child services, taking care of elderly, etc)
    2. The company has their own office and you’re not working from home.

    I feel this is an odd (not to mention intrusive request).

      1. k.k*

        Yeah, no matter where the company is located there has to be some option for a public meeting space if there isn’t space in the office. I’d take an interview outside on a park bench before letting someone into my home.

        Besides just being weird and invasive, it totally opens them up for discrimination. They don’t have to ask if you’re married or have kids when they seem family photos, or religion if you have items displayed in the home.

    5. Manders*

      This feels really shady. Even if it’s not a scam, it’s very bad judgment on the hiring manager’s part–if they can’t do the interview in their own office for whatever reason, they should do it in a coffee shop or some other public place. And even if the job has to take place in the candidate’s home, I’d expect that kind of inspection to be a final step in the process, not the first interview.

    6. Anony McAnonface*

      I, for one, do not relish the thought of being made into a skin lampshade so I would not invite that person into my home. It sounds super shady.

    7. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Nooooooooooooooooooooooope. I want to be evaluated based on how they think I’ll do at the job, not on my less-than-stellar housekeeping abilities (since I won’t be applying for housekeeping jobs, being less than stellar at it :P).

    9. Menacia*

      Did you ask them why they wanted to interview you in your home? I’d really love to know the answer to that logic (or illogic).

      1. Home Job Interview.*

        They want you (and your family/significant other) know what you’re getting yourself into. Which is weird since that can be done anywhere other than your home. Maybe it’s because their business is building homes but I still fail to see the logic of having a in-home interview. The position is just basic office work. Scanning, filing, answering phones, etc.

    11. nonegiven*

      When I was a kid, my dad was recruited by a business owner. He made an appointment and came over one evening after dinner so it didn’t interfere with my dad’s job as plant manager at a factory. It was more like, you want me? Then work around my schedule.

  138. CatCat*

    I had the “interview” for the city commission I applied for this week. Basically, you had to stand up before the city’s personnel committee (basically, a subcommittee of the city council made up of some members of the city council) and had a max of two minutes to say why you were interested and why you were qualified. Exactly the same questions on the written application.

    There were *a lot* of applicants, but I noticed half had not confirmed they were going to attend and I am sure some did not show up because, last minute, the meeting start time was pushed back by an hour. I was the fourth person to go and I think I did okay, but probably could have been a bit more polished in my presentation. I definitely have a background and experience in the subject area of the commission. The first person was polished in his presentation, but didn’t seem to have practical experience in the commission’s task. The second person rambled, went over time, and I have no idea from his presentation what his qualifications are. The third person was polished and had some experience and background related to the commission’s task, but there might be a barrier due to a relative that could possible represent someone before the commission. I left right after my presentation.

    Even with not everyone showing up, there were a lot of applicants for a few slots. I still have my fingers crossed though!

  139. Muggsy*

    I was recently promoted, and moved to an extension building on the other side of town. I brought only a few things to my new office, but a favorite mug was one of them. I left it to dry in the dish rack overnight (my mistake), and noticed it was missing. Bummed me out, but it happens. BUT… I noticed this week that one of my former managers is the one who took it. And has been washing it out and keeping it at his desk. I’m willing to let it go, but how bummed out should I be/10 that he’s stealing a mug? (We have a large set of company dishes in the breakroom, and this mug was very obviously not part of the set.)

    1. Murphy*

      I would just ask for it back next time you see them with it. They may not realize (even though it should be obvious).

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Yes I’d treat it as a mistake where they didn’t realize it was yours and thought it was a company one. It should’ve been obvious but…

    3. K, Esq.*

      Notice mug on his desk while he’s there. “Oh, you found my mug! Thanks so much, I’ve been looking for it.”

    4. nonegiven*

      I would totally say, “Oh, you found my mug. It’s my favorite, I thought I’d lost it forever.” Then I’d take it and write my name on the bottom.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I’m probably being a big a**hole, but I’d steal it back and take it home, never to be seen at work again. Really.

  140. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Talk me down, please– I just sent out some client reports for the first time in this role (the task shifted from a superior to me), and it’s a relatively simple task, but OMG the anxiety that something might be wrong. I realize this is perfectly normal and all, but I am feeling it hard today!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      It’s your first. It’s a great moment. Consider the implication that it’s something a superior used to do and it is now YOUR task, not that higher level person’s. That means that they consider you a capable enough employee to handle it. Feeling anxious comes with the territory, but soon it will feel like a normal task that you can tackle like you do every other aspect of your job.

    2. kas*

      I’ve been in my current position for a few months now and I’m still like this. I deal with clients daily and I’m always scared to press send and triple check everything, even after I hit send. I’ve never made a mistake so I don’t know why I go through this every time.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This is kind of a shot in the dark, but when I really worry about making a mistake on something I try to learn how to fix it once I have sent it. I do this before the mistake occurs.This really helps to cut down my worry. And I now have a list of places/people that I can call.

  141. Anon Accountant*

    Tomorrow marks 7 years since I started my dysfunctional job. Never thought I’d still be there but am working on finding another.

    Staying at my firm past 3 years in recent years is unheard of. Old management had staff who stayed 20+ years.

    To “celebrate” I’m buying a new set of pots and pans. We host every major holiday here and several pots are in bad shape. Making a positive out of a negative!

  142. Fresh Start*

    After suffering through a job at a company in a dying industry with layoffs every year, I landed a dream job at a growing employee-owned company. I start on Monday as a manager.

    While I’ve been a manager for quite awhile, I don’t change jobs very often (every four-five years). Does anyone have some good checklist resources that I can use to get off to a great start?

  143. What?*

    Quick update on my situation (see 9/22 and 10/14 open threads) – we had meetings with the CTO last week who pulled me aside and asked if I was leaving. I laid out the situation for him and he said he was sorry to hear that. My grandboss vetoed my proposal to shift my role to IT and let me actually manage the system instead of running reports, but the section on all the problems we are having with IT has presented to the CTO by grandboss this week. He is supposed to email me about that.

    In the meantime, boss has been out of the office almost everyday for a family crisis, leaving me “in charge” (I guess – people keep coming to me for help/guidance), another on our team of four leads has also been out with back issues, leaving us with 2 – and I am being pushed out the door in Jan. Apparently boss talked with a different team lead so they know something and are fighting to keep me here.

    No hits on interviews or even phone screens yet so I have a place to land. Life is interesting at times.

  144. Caledonia*

    Urgh. The moment when you realise that you read the instructions one way (which make sense) but you aren’t supposed to mark it up (correctly) but to just write x and y but no z.

    Lots of going back on my work on Monday to take out the z’s.

  145. NoodleMara*

    Does anyone else have projects that are way above your level in terms of responsibility and how did you handle leaving while working on them?

    For context, I am a fairly low level teapot checker and builder. I’ve gotten more responsibility in the three years ive been working here so im no longer entry level. However, high level mgmt team found out I’m good at excel. This is a small company with around 120 workers. So now the mgmt team and the owners have me doing spreadsheet work, including company sales and financial analysis. I had to sign an NDA to work on it.

    I’m working on leaving the company and moving over to a teapot material company. Will that be cool? I’m mostly miffed I didn’t get any sort of salary increase for doing that kind of work. Which is one of the reasons I’m looking to leave

    1. LQ*

      Do the same kinds of things you would otherwise I think. Document what you can. Make sure things are well labeled and organized. And know that the company will figure it out without you. They’ll be fine. Good luck finding something new!

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Document the process and ask who they would like to take over that responsibility.
      Then follow their instructions. Don’t worry too much about what will not be your problem in the future.

  146. only acting normal*

    I just found out my company has introduced automated video screening after the initial application sifting stage. We’re a professional organisation, and they’re using it to screen at least graduate applicants. We’re already struggling to recruit because of our low salaries: e.g. we used to recruit from Oxbridge-type unis, but we’ve given up even attending their career fairs because we’re not competitive enough.
    Are there any sources I can point to, in addition to here, that suggest it’s a bad idea: e.g that good candidates will self-filter out?

    (I swear if I applied here today I’d never get past the application process! It sounds like seven circles of hell.)

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Wait, they are having a hard time finding recruits, so they are making the process even more unappealing?
      You’d think they’d want to make it easier.

      1. only acting normal*

        You’d think, and yet. I’ve learned to rein in the common sense when dealing with our corporate lords and masters.
        (NB I am not usually involved in hiring, but I have been asked my opinion on this.)
        I think the rationale is to save time by not doing full on interviews for as many people, and only “concentrating on the best applicants”. But if people with better options are already going elsewhere, I think people with *any* options are going to start going elsewhere if we give them too many flaming hoops to jump through.

  147. LQ*

    I had a good moment with my boss’s boss (but the person who is currently directing my work and who I’ll be reporting to soon) this week. I brought up someone I work with but who reports up a different chain had been bringing political statements into meetings and I’d been shutting him down. I was planning to just give boss’s boss a heads up that if dude did it again I’d go and have a personal chat with him to say knock it off. Boss’s boss jumped in really quickly and said I didn’t have to deal with it and that it was his job to handle that and then we talked some more about what additional concerns this may have brought up. But it was sort of a surprising moment of him being really I’ve got your back and can take care of this for you. I knew he’d support me, but I didn’t know he’d take care of it for me.

  148. Winger*

    I just got a new job. This is the first time I have ever changed jobs without moving at least 100 miles. My new office will be blocks away from my current office – I don’t even have to change my commute.

    My current workplace is going through a lot of troubles; one result is that I’ve had 4 bosses in 2 years. I walked into my current boss’s office to tell her the news. I was holding a folder with my letter of resignation, and I turned to close her door, and she goes “wait, what? what’s wrong? every time someone comes in here and closes my door, they’re about to tell me they’re resigning.”

  149. Adelyade83*

    I work 20 hours for a development corporation in rural community. My job is funded by the city and a grant. Duties include finding funding for a housing development that my corporation has started, support existing and new business, writing grants and planning 3 major town events. My board continues ask me to do more while not increasing my hours. A large chunk of our budget has gone towards the housing development but if they want to there is money in the budget to allow me to work more hours.
    If I can work more I would be able to spend time looking for grants and financing for all of our projects. I asked for more hours last year and was told they didn’t want to stretch the budget. With the board presidents blessing I’m asking for more hours again this year. In my request last year, I gave them a list of what I’ve done and what I would like to do with the extra hours. This year I would like to find a professional way to say that if I have more hours I will have more time to write grants and research funding. If they can’t give me more hours I can’t continue to take on more tasks. I do work 25-30 hours a week already. If anyone has tips on writing something like that I would appreciate it!

    1. LQ*

      I think something like these are the outcomes that will happen with an additional x hours a week. I’d be careful about saying you’ll receive more grants, but that you could apply for more funding opportunities you could say.

    2. K, Esq.*

      You can’t be paid for 20 hours and work for 30 because they aren’t paying you for that time. It’s illegal, and I’m pretty sure against the grant funding rules.

      1. Her Grace*

        Plus, if the board isn’t aware you’re working the extra hours, they might not be inclined to give you the hours you request if you appear to be making good use of the ones you’ve got. Appearing more efficient than you are is not necessarily a good thing.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Show them where the flexibility is in the budget.
      “I see there is X dollars over here in the budget. If you as a board chose, you could use that to raise my hours and I could seek more grants for our community.”

      Sometimes you have to connect the dots for boards by making statements about things that are obvious to you. Here the idea is point out where there is money and BE SURE to state something about “of course, it is your call/discretion/choice.

      It sounds like a rural-ish area. I am on a couple boards in a rural area. Honestly, board members probably don’t know what available monies they have. The only person who is aware is the treasurer and everyone just goes with what the treasurer says. Practice your wording, you should sound sure-footed but fully cognizant that it is not your final call. If a board feels pressured they will just say no, if you remind them that it’s their call they will calm down and think it through.

  150. Anonforthis*

    My annoying co-worker is being sickeningly helpful today, but is also his same self (complaining about how hot (or cold he is), not answering any calls, disappearing when there is work to be done). We are interviewing for a new coworker and he’s involved in the process (he wasn’t the last time around so he’s obviously only doing this for himself). He even said in the interview that he’s asking a question “because he’s being selfish” about an area that he’s going to own. I feel he’s trying to find someone he can push off work to so he does not have to do it. I have never met anyone like this guy, he came in with a crappy attitude and a chip on his shoulder. He also was diagnosed with a serious illness for which he was out about 2 months, he’s doing well so you would think he would be grateful…but nope, nothing has changed. If we hire another one like him, I’m gone.

  151. Cheesecake 2.0*

    Question for those of you who travel for work: Are you expected to be “productive” while waiting at the airport/on the plane? I travel a few times a year and the expectation seems to be that if you’re traveling during regular work hours, you also need to be responding to emails, working on documents, etc. It’s hard for me though, travel (especially flying) makes me feel gross and woozy and I really struggle to do anything more taxing than listening to podcasts or something similar.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s reasonable to expect a minimal level of “productivity” if you’re waiting at the airport and it’s during regular work hours. But they can’t expect the same level of quality. Maybe respond to urgent email questions. Things like that. But not like creating a report or writing code or doing serious graphic design work in the waiting area.

      That’s in general, though.

      Since you say you “feel gross and woozy,” you can make a special case for it that they shouldn’t expect anything from you while you’re traveling, but you’ll be on everything when you arrive.

    2. Been There*

      I’ll attend meetings if needed from the airport and I’ll do urgent things or answer email if it’s convenient, but generally speaking I travel outside of typical working hours (7am and 8 or 11pm flights). So no I don’t stress myself out working while traveling.

    3. periwinkle*

      Nope-ety nope nope. If I’m at the airport, I’m drinking a latte and listening to a podcast while waiting at the gate. On the plane, I’m napping or reading.

      When I get to the hotel, yeah, I’ll check emails and get work done. However, during the actual travel part I am coping with busy parking garages, airport security, economy-class airplane seats, taxis, etc. When travel is part of my job, the traveling part *is* work.

    4. Product person*

      I travel for work and like you can only muster the energy to listen to podcasts. It was never an issue in my jobs — after all, I’m already losing personal time during the trip (having to spend a night at a hotel instead of at my home, or travel during what would be my lunch time). I’m exempt, though — things might be different for a non-exempt employee being paid hourly and sitting by the gate waiting for the time to board a plane …

    5. NeverNicky*

      Those of us who do travel try to at least do something, even if it’s only reading the latest research papers in our field or catching up on email. But a normal day’s productivity is definitely not expected.

  152. Artdrone*

    I work at a very small company. Our staff director used to be our HR dept but after she left it became the job of our CEO – our stereotypically absent, technophobic, clueless, semi-racist and misogynistic, CEO. He’s also now in charge of our finances and hiring (and constantly needs help getting to these resources because he refuses to learn to use technology.) He has utterly no idea what anyone does here and regularly makes demands that don’t make sense, because he’s never set foot in our production spaces, stores, or warehouses. We’ve already had to reschedule plans because he mismanaged our budget, and now he has even more responsibilities.

    Reassure me that this won’t be a big deal? We have a board he has to answer to, so things can’t get that haywire, right? I’m kind of looking for a way out anyway….

    1. Junior Dev*

      I think you should start job searching, to be honest. It doesn’t sound like this is going to end well for anyone.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Your board already allows someone who is absent, technophobic, clueless, semi-racist, and misogynistic continue to be CEO. I don’t see them having an issue with him acting as CFO and HR.
      Get out as soon as you can!

  153. tink*

    I may have full-time employment! I still have to do the bg check, but pending that (and it should be a non-issue), I’ll finally be working again! It’s been several years, so I’m nervous but relieved (my partner got laid off a few months ago, and while they’ve got unemployment and are actively searching, things have been rough lately).

  154. Sylvan*

    I have a small business. No employees, just me. My biggest client is retiring in a few months. When I lose their business, my income will be halved. I’m trying to find new clients, but. :(

    2. Anono-me*

      Ask the retiring client who they will be referring their customers to?

      Could you provide your services directly to the retiring client’s clients?

      Good luck.

    3. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      UGH. Been there. It’s hard. Ended up making my business my side gig and getting a FT job.

  155. Junior Dev*

    I had a really nerve wracking job interview and I guess I just want to vent about it. It was with groups of 2 or 3 people at a time, 45 minutes each, no breaks, for 3 hours total. I felt pretty overwhelmed tbh and it kinda seemed like they were throwing every individual who’d have to work with me at me at a time regardless of their interviewing skills.

    Who knows, it’s kinda a stretch application for me but the hiring manager likes me. But it was such a strange interview experience.

    At least there was no whiteboard component, but there were quite a few questions about technical things that most people would only ever do with access to the internet and various reference resources (“what bash command would you use for XYZ?” I got about half of them).

    Anyway, it felt like they didn’t really know how to interview someone effectively and was very stressful. I’m supposed to hear back by next week.

  156. Koala dreams*

    I’ve got a question about Halloween. Is Halloween surrounded by the same discussions about diversity as other religious holidays, such as Christmas? If you work in an office with people from different backgrounds, do you celebrate Halloween at work?
    From reading Ask a manager I know there are some pushback when it comes to Christmas dinners, Easter bunnies and such at work, since not everybody celebrates those, but I haven’t seen any discussions focused on Halloween. If you can share your experience, or point me in the right direction if there is previous discussion on this topic, I would be thankful. :)

    In my country, Christmas decorations, dinners and gifts at work are normal, and you can hardly walk by an office building in december without seeing Christmas lights in the windows. Halloween on the other hand is not really celebrated at work, outside of retail and other similar sectors.

    1. k.k*

      I’m in the US, and everywhere I’ve worked has done something for Halloween. One place was just a few decorations and bowl of candy for trick-or-treaters at the front desk, another did a big cubicle decorating contest. It’s always treated as a purely secular occasion.

          1. Koala dreams*

            In my country, we celebrate All Hallow’s Day, which is a Christian holiday, celebrated on the Saturday closest to 1 of November. I thought Halloween was related.

    2. Postdoc*

      Halloween is not as heavily religious as Christmas or Easter. Diversity isn’t really as much of an issue because few people feel like someone else’s religion is being forced on them. I wouldn’t say that we really “celebrate” Halloween in lab. Some people bring in candy to share but that is about it.

    3. Fictional Butt*

      I have heard of people in the US (mostly members of some Christian sects I think) who don’t celebrate Halloween, for religious reasons, and don’t feel comfortable with how widespread it is. But I’ve never personally encountered someone who was opposed to celebrating at work on religious grounds.

    4. The IT Manager*

      In the US it is a secular holiday in that unlike Christmas and Easter it doesn’t trace back to a Christian holiday. It has pagan roots but pagans are not the dominate religious group in the US and they’re not a large enough group to be forcing the celebration of their holiday on others.

      In the US its very much focused on kids, candy, and costumes. It’s not usually a day off of work. But it does seem to me that adults are getting more and more into costuming themselves. It’s hard for me to tell, though, because I have had a career change and moved to a new city that loves wearing costumes so maybe its that and not a nationwide cultural change.

      1. Parenthetically*

        *pushes up church history nerd glasses* The word halloween roughly means “the eve of All Saints,” November 1st being the Christian feast of All Saints. So it does indeed have a history as a Christian holiday, just one that doesn’t enjoy ascendancy in the US or other non-Roman Catholic countries.

        1. Thlayli*

          Halloween was originally the Celtic harvest festival of Samhain: the Christians just linked it to all saints day which is where the name All Hallows’ Evening comes from, but the festival was still very much the Samhain festival. The traditional games are all about harvest – bobbing for apples and so on and even trick or treating is about having lots of food to eat which was what happened at harvest time.

        2. Ann O.*

          It doesn’t have a history as a religious holiday in the US. I think it had already secularized in Ireland by the time Irish immigrants brought it over here, but if not, they didn’t spread the religious aspects. Halloween is even a very different name than All Hallow’s Eve or All Saint’s Eve. It’s functionally a different holiday with its own distinctive traditions.

          And that doesn’t get into the fact that it’s an assimilated version of Samhain in Ireland to begin with.

        3. Koala dreams*

          In my country we celebrate All Hallow’s Day, and the dominant religion is Protestant Christian.

    5. Anon for this*

      As others have said, I think the difference (in the US) is that Halloween is seen as a purely secular holiday – like Thanksgiving or Independence Day. Christmas and Easter, however, are very much tied to religion (even though there are those in the privileged majority who argue that they’re not religious).

      While there may be those who may take offense to Halloween decorations or an American flag (for July 4th) in the office, that’s considered quite a bit different than taking offense to religious decor.

      Also, friendly reminder that Christmas might be seen as “normal” in other countries, but that could be due in part to a lack of religious diversity in that country. The fact that it’s so widespread that it makes it seem normal is a privilege the majority feels, but that doesn’t make it any less religious.

      1. Koala dreams*

        I’m not arguing that it’s religious, as I commented above Christmas, Easter, and All Hallow’s Day are all important holidays in the Protestant Christian tradition in my country. In fact, most of our national holidays are Christian, or co-opted by the church. I thought Halloween also was a religious holiday and wondered why it was viewed differently as other holidays. Now I see it’s actually considered a secular holiday in the US. Very interesting!

    6. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Since I’m not in the US, I second your question. Over here it’s considered a foreign custom, and some people have strong opinions against it since they considered it as cultural colonization. It has become popular among children and teenagers from the upper-middle and high class in the last ten years or so, and some private schools even organize related activities. If I’m not mistaken, some years ago there was an incident with a couple of rich kids who were caught breaking in a local cemetery. But it’s definitely not widespread.

      1. Koala dreams*

        Halloween celebrations with candy and costumes are making inroads in my country too, but it’s not very popular. Some schools allow costumes on Halloween for the kids, and there are a lot of advertisement for Halloween, but it’s not very popular yet.

    7. Student*

      Most workplace controversy around Halloween in the US centers around:
      Costumes
      Candy disposition
      Whether the decorations are annoying enough / too annoying

      There are a small minority of people in the US who take exception to it for religious reasons, but they are an extremely small minority and they aren’t well-regarded by most of the country (their biggest beefs with the holiday, that I have personally encountered, are rooted in wild misinterpretations of the holiday and incorrect assumptions about its history, so they don’t really make for a persuasive argument to most of us). The vast majority of the country views it as a secular kid-focused and party-focused holiday. It’s more like a kid’s version of Saint Patrick’s Day here – which we associate with drinking, the color green, and not really with saints.

      There’s no specific religion here that claims Halloween as “their” holiday. It came to us through mostly Irish immigrant cultural traditions, rather than religious traditions, and it has evolved considerably over time. The trick-or-treating bit of it took off post-WW2 here, while the costumes, parties, and tricks part got established earlier.

    8. Anon For This*

      I’ve worked in both the U.S. and Australia and I definitely noticed differences. In the parts of Australia where I was, at least among the people I knew, Christmas wasn’t seen as a religious holiday the same way it is in the U.S. Because not as many people we’re religious. And/or weren’t as outspoken about their religion as people in the U.S. can be.

      It’s weird, though, because Halloween is a religious holiday. I mean, it’s Samhain in certain pagan traditions. Just modified and made secular. I’ve heard objections to it from both practicing pagans and Christians who object to traditional pagan beliefs. So it is controversial. But there aren’t widespread discussions about it (in the US).

    9. Argh!*

      We weren’t allowed to wear any costumes or even any accessories this year. I can’t believe someone would find pumpkin earrings offensive, but we will never know now.

  158. Boss Thinks I'm His #2*

    My job is split between two programs. I’m the manager of Program A; on Program B I report to the program director (who is also my manager).

    My lines of work on Program B are clear. I own a few lines of work; another colleague owns a few lines of work; and the rest is my boss’ responsibility.

    My boss, and everyone else in our division, treats me as his deputy on Program B, which is mostly nice — I get to be involved with the high-level strategic work on a program I love. But because he’s rather disorganized it means that a lot of things that should be his work falls to me (or doesn’t happen). For example: I’m looking at an email right now from another team about a deadline we’re about to miss; I’m copied because everyone knows the drill, and I’m 100% sure that he hasn’t and won’t deal with the issue or respond.

    What to do?

    1. Support Corner*

      The very best you can. I am in a similar situation where it is expected I will back up my boss and fill in all the blanks. I don’t even ask anymore, I just know it’s my responsibility to ensure the work is done. Not an ideal situation, since I have my own responsibilities, but it was better than scrambling at the last minute.

      1. Boss Thinks I'm His #2*

        It’s NOT my responsibility, though. I just went through an extensive negotiation of my job description (a result of the way my time is divided between programs), so there are clear lines around who does what.

  159. Fabulous*

    So I generally like my team lead, but I’m SOOO frustrated with her today.

    I’ve been learning a new aspect of the job and I’ve shared my tracking spreadsheet with her where I updated the totals formulas, since she doesn’t use excel as much as I do and doesn’t know shortcuts or complex formulas. All she’s commented on is “You did this but not this” – Well duh, I haven’t updated my spreadsheet for November yet because I still have 3+ days with of work for October to do since you waited a full day to get me the information I needed to do it. But I thought I’d share my automated formulas for you to copy into your November spreadsheets so you don’t have to manually count ~100 Y’s and N’s on 7 different tabs all month. But OK complain that I didn’t add in the 4 new columns that don’t pertain to what I’ve been working on or use the new November list on my October report.

    So much for setting aside 2 days to work on this presentation that I haven’t even been able to start now because of YOUR delays…. lksjdbgflsuhdgga mnsdfbvjly

  160. Desichan*

    Does anyone know the name of any worthwhile employment lawyers in Virginia? I have a friend who doesn’t reside here who was fired from a company based here and they probably have one heck of a whistleblower lawsuit on their hands. They were told by a lawyer in the city they reside that they would need someone in Virginia and I don’t know any since I live here as a milspouse and have never had to use an employment attorney. I can use any direction/advice anyone is willing to give.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      You could probably check the state bar association’s website and see what they have listed there. I’m not based out of VA either, but my lawyer friend has referred a few people that way when she can’t help them (getting approached outside of court with “oh you look like a nice lawyer; you can help me” does not equate to knowing all aspects of law).

  161. E*

    On Staying Organized with Work Tasks:
    I’ve determined that my to-do list is best handled with a combination of flags/reminders in Outlook and paper lists. So today I ordered a whiteboard notebook, that hopefully will let me compile easily updated list of high-priority tasks, “don’t forget to check on this in a few weeks” lists, etc. And I can wipe off the tasks that are done easy-peasy.

  162. Pseudo-Fed*

    Here’s a weird one for you…

    Two weeks ago the VP I report to sent me an email, in which I was summoned to a meeting at his office, which is a few blocks away from my work site. When I got there, there were five others who had apparently been BCC’d on the same email. VP then announces that all six of us are laid off effective immediately, here’s your termination paperwork, and let’s have your badges.

    After that I went straight to my favorite watering hole, as one does. A few hours later, said VP calls me and says that our customer – and the customer’s boss! – had had a word with him about this, and that he’s rescinding my termination. Needless to say this has created a new sense of urgency in my job search, which was already in progress.

    1. CatCat*

      Yikes!! You’re right to be looking. Sounds like Customer and Customer’s Boss like you. Any chance there might be opportunities there?

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I worked with someone who was part of a layoff, and then got rehired the next day because the client insisted. In that case, the person was able to get hired through another division that was also working with the same client so they did not have to come back & work for the same manager that laid them off. For me, the urgency would depend on the overall relationship with the boss and whether you were 6 of 8 (so a good chance you would get picked), or 6 of 80, and what the general outlook is for your business. (In our case, we ended up swamped a few months after the layoff–contrary to forecasts–so you never know.)

    3. Argh!*

      I <3 your customer! If you find another job in your field I hope you are able to take the customer with you.

  163. Stacie*

    I want to get some feedback on an idea I have. I’m a training manager in a basically nonexistent L&D department. I oversee training for 21 cities around the country and it’s impossible. I have a proposal out for expanding and making this a real department. In the meantime I want to revitalize a program we used to use where an hourly employee was named as a “tour guide”. It’s the best people who can help train new hires. No set pay increase, but there is a bonus structure for completed new hire training.

    I want to restart it, change the name to crew lead and have them do a bit more with new initiative training as well. (We change processes a lot here and rely on market managers to get the word to their crews but it just doesn’t always happen.) This program will keep the same bonus structure but still no pay increase mandated at my level. Rather they can talk about it as merit increases during their annual reviews. Most of these people are already going to be the highest paid staff there anyway.

    With these few details I’ve given you all (for the sake of brevity) do you think that I could possible end up in a sticky situation by using the name “crew lead” for these people without also giving them a pay increase with it?

    1. periwinkle*

      In your shoes, I’d think up a different name. The “lead” title implies a level of both authority (or at least accountability) and more advanced work which merits a raise.

      I’ve actually worked with an internal customer to put together a program like this for their new hires. Our organization uses a particular term for “expert on this certain thing whom anyone can contact for help.” I’ll substitute our word with Wizard. So we have Wizards who are experts on certain processes or software or methodologies or whatever, and have managerial permission to spend a little time helping others. Some Wizards are formally designated, others perform wizardry more informally but still have manager permission to wave their wand when needed. It’s part of your current job so no extra money; there are intangible benefits to getting company-wide visibility as a helpful expert, though!

      So anyway, I came up with the idea of Onboarding Wizards who acted as peer mentors to new hires. We put new hires through a firehose of training; the OW is there to work directly with the new person to review the training, clarify stuff that’s confusing, bring the new hire along to meetings, help her build her network, and generally be accessible and patient with all those questions a new employee has.

      You could just call this role “peer mentor”, perhaps?

  165. BigSigh*

    My IT guy at work this week put in an urgent call to a very high level executive this week, at another company in our group of companies, with no direct line to our IT person.

    He left a voicemail. He said, and I quote, “Call me back within a half hour. It’s urgent. We have to set up a meeting over Skype. Can you give me instructions on how to do this?”

  166. Buu*

    omg finally got a job offer moving into another field in my industry! I’ve written here before of my terrible boss and got some great feedback. I’ve also been reading through the advice here. It’s honestly better than I could have imagined, moving into a role that’s been a dream for years. Scared as heck as it’s a big risk…but I’m so excited. It took longer than I had hoped to find another job but I was being picky applying either more senior roles in my current field with half an eye on the new area of the same industry I’m moving to.
    Little bit worried about resigning from my current place …difficult boss may make this all rather difficult. That said he’s been missing a lot of work lately so I’m wondering if he ends up off when i need to reign if I should just go straight to HR to resign or talk to another manager at the same level as my boss. I’m edging toward HR I am worried about boss kicking off if he ends up last to know.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You’re worried about the boss kicking off? You mean dying?
      I hope you know that is not yours to worry about. Clearly, you don’t wish to harm the person. But accepting a person’s resignation is just a part of his job. If he is that fragile that your resignation would cause him to get sick or die, then he is in a very fragile state anyway. You understand that if he does get sick or die, you did not cause that, right? Because it’s true, you did NOT cause that.

  167. beanie beans*

    Question around vacation planning and the prospects of a new job.

    Family is planning a 2 week trip in February and anxious to buy the plane tickets. I’m (hopefully still) in the middle of what could be a slow interview process for a new job.

    How likely is it to be able to negotiate a previously-planned 2 week vacation that would happen fairly early in a new job? 2 weeks seems like a lot for what would be a couple of months into a new job.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I suppose it depends on your industry and level, but in my experience you can just tell them when you get the offer that you have a previously planned vacation and will be out during those weeks. In most cases, you won’t have earned enough vacation time (or may not be allowed to take it yet), so it will be unpaid, but this is otherwise a normal request that shouldn’t cause any trouble.

      1. beanie beans*

        Thanks – this is what I’m hoping will happen, but I’m not really familiar with what’s typical out there.

  168. Yomi*

    Anybody else out there have a chronic illness and have that contributing to some imposter syndrome?

    I just had my review, and my manager said really nice things and I got great scores (yay!) and talked about how productive and efficient I am.

    But the thing is, I know that because of my illness, I’m not performing as well as I could be. And I don’t know how to handle knowing that I could do more if I just wasn’t sick. But then when I get in a mood and say “I know I’m capable of more” I remember that because of my illness, I’m _not_ capable of more anymore, even if I used to be. So I just keep getting in this loop of getting mad at one thing or another, and the whole time worrying that my boss will figure out that I’m not actually as efficient as he thinks I am, because I’m only performing at 75%. Or am I at 100% because this _is_ the best I can do because of my physical limitations?

    Then I try to remind myself that if he’s happy with what I’m doing, why am I obsessing? But that’s the imposter syndrome, I just keep thinking he’s only happy because he doesn’t know better.

    I don’t know, I’m just in a weird mood with it all this week because I’m also having a flare up, so the review just didn’t end up sitting right in my brain.

    1. CheeryO*

      I feel you. I have a chronic autoimmune thing going on (undiagnosed so far), and it definitely contributed to imposter syndrome. I get good reviews too, but I remember when I used to have more energy and could do more, and it makes me feel like crap. In my head, I feel like I should be able to handle twice as much work as I have, but then the days trickle by in a haze of tiredness without much getting done. It doesn’t help that I need to drive a lot to do my job, and long car trips are my #1 inflammation/pain/brain fog trigger for some reason.

      I think some of it is just being a perfectionist and over-achiever, so it’s not good enough to be good – I need to be THE BEST and THE MOST PRODUCTIVE. I’m trying to let go of that, but it’s hard.

      1. nonegiven*

        Aren’t long car trips extra tiring for most people? Some days, DH has come home saying I’m so tired, I drove all day and didn’t really do any work, just look over jobs for bidding at opposite ends of our territory. For nearly 20 years he has been saying that.

        His doctor checked his RA factor every year because of family history plus threw in other autoimmune antibody tests a couple of times. He only tested positive for RA last year.

    2. Argh!*

      I have the opposite. My boss doesn’t take my illness seriously (because she knows other people who are sicker, despite my FML paperwork not saying what I have).

      You may be overcompensating and actually performing equally to other people. A good boss won’t tell you that Fergus is only working at 60% or that three other people have chronic illnesses so you wouldn’t know that you’re doing just fine… unless your boss tells you!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Kick Negative Nancy in your brain to the curb.
      Your boss just told you that you are doing great. Telling Nancy that she is lying to you, AGAIN. It’s not true, your boss is happy with your work and Nancy does not know what she is talking about.

      It’s really important to listen to people’s words and remember the words accurately. And right here is why. Our minds wander around and look for crappy things to think of and tell us.
      Negative Nancy does not believe your boss. Do YOU believe your boss?
      Self-talk. We have to tell ourselves positive things because those negative things just jump into our brains by themselves. Each time Nancy starts her crap, deliberately say, “That is not true.”

    4. NeverNicky*

      I have MS so I hear you. And when I get into a bit of a funk about it I acknowledge that yes, 20 years ago I could have done more in terms of quantity,or put in longer hours but so what? Would the work have been of as high a quality? I have years more experience and knowledge which goes directly into my work. Would I have achieved anything in those extra hours? Perhaps with technology now I am actually doing more in less time.
      You are doing the best you can with the resources you gave now. And that’s reflected in your boss’s appraisal. You’ve got this – tell your inner critic to pipe down!

    5. Hare*

      I completely feel this at the moment. I’m currently trying to come to terms with my Fibromyalgia. My work offered me some counselling (free, and in work time) and I’ve taken them up on that. It’s really helping. If that’s a possibility for you, I recommend it.

  169. tigerStripes*

    Why is open enrollment only once a year? Is this done to save money for employers and insurance companies since they could figure a few people won’t remember and won’t have any insurance? Why couldn’t it be 4 times a year or something?

    Especially annoyed at the “there are almost no changes to make, but you still have to actively enroll to get insurance”.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Because the insurance model doesn’t work if people can wait to join until they get sick — the model depends on people paying in when they are healthy.

      2. Undine*

        There’s a couple factors. For instance, they renegotiate their insurance contracts once a year and the sign everyone up for those renegotiated plans. Even if they look the same to you, they’ve done some work to keep it that way.

        Rolling people over and changing their enrollment takes work, and doing it all at once so everyone has the same status and the same plan enables them to do it all in a batch. Otherwise you have all these people with different status, half of them on last year’s plan and half of them on this year’s plan.

        I don’t know why they force re-enrollment — maybe that’s theoretically to make sure you look at the options? Ours have been changing so much that they probably want to make sure everyone signs something saying they know it’s changed. Even if it’s only 5 cents more a payment cycle, maybe they need/want your explicit consent to that.
        Of course they are doing it because it is more convenient for them, but I don’t think it’s to trick you into not signing up — the economies of scale and uniformity are what pays off for them.

    2. kas*

      For the past 3 years I’ve been trying to change my plan but I miss the open enrolment every time! I have no idea what’s wrong with me. My company gives a few months notice and mails out the plans but I always end up forgetting when it’s actually time to change it.

    3. Nacho*

      To make sure you don’t sign up for the no deductible plan just in time to get all your medical stuff done/prescriptions bought, then switch to the high deductible for the rest of the year.

    4. H.C.*

      Huh – in all of my jobs if you didn’t do anything in open enrollment period you just keep the same insurance and benefits as you did in the current/previous year, I’ve never had a case where you have to re-enroll in everything or otherwise you’re getting booted out.

      1. Argh!*

        We started the mandatory re-enrollment thing last year. At the time I thought it was just due to changing to an automated online system, but we have to do at least part of it every year now.

  170. Anon Updating CV*

    As I may be job-hunting soon, I’m brushing up my CV and looking at ways I can improve and update my skills and portfolio. Currently a part of my job is the marketing of, shall we say, “teapot awareness events,” and for reasons related to why I plan to start job-hunting, it’s not my best work. I’ve been able to beef up my portfolio previously with volunteer work and I plan to do so again. However, something I’ve noticed in job listings under qualifications are things like “planning and execution of successful campaign” and while I can do that with the volunteer work, I am doubtful that my official work will demonstrate that to hiring committes. If it comes up, what would be some tactful ways to reply to questions about that? Or am I overthinking this? It’s currently a part of my job, but not the primary focus. Ideally the marketing work would be done by a contractor and I would manage that as a part of my duties.

  171. Terby*

    Alphabetization Question

    Which comes first:
    Four names, how should they be alphabetized: DeAlmeida, DeSouza, De Almeida, De Souza

    What are your thoughts? Can you reference a standard that outlines which goes first?

    1. Riddle You That*

      If you go by APA standards, alphabetize letter by letter, ignoring spaces and alphabetization. So, I assume that means you could do:

      DeAlmeida, De Almeida, DeSouza, De Souza
      De Almeida, DeAlmeida, De Souza, DeSouza

    2. Turtlewings*

      The rules I’m familiar with for library shelving say “nothing comes before something,” so it would be:
      De Almeida, De Souza, DeAlmeida, DeSouza

      (Just like Day would come before Daye, or Allen before Allentown. The space means the end of that first word that you’re alphabetizing by. Almeida and Souza are separate words because of that space.)

    3. Chaordic One*

      Piggybacking on Terby’s question, what do you do with Irish names such as: MacCourt, MacMurray, McArthur, McCarth

      Sometimes there’s some kind of unwritten rule that names that start with “Mc” are assumed to really be “Mac” or something like that. Can anyone clarify it?

      1. Hibiscus*

        Actually there’s an old shelving rule called the “Mc-Mac Rule” where you shelve them at the beginning of the Ms.

  172. VictoriaQ*

    So as someone who’s graduating this year with a degree in finance, and thinking about going into financial management or banking, is there anyone else here who works in those fields and can give me an idea of the work-life balance? After so many years of school, I’m not thrilled with the idea of taking my work home with me, or of constantly working 70-hour weeks.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      Oh man… I’m guessing you’re in the US? I’m Canadian but the finance culture is the same. I’m going to be a bit doom and gloom here because I specifically decided not to go into the field because of the hours.

      For stretches of time, 70 hours might actually be a modest estimate. I have many friends that started work in banking/financial management. Basically, it’s about as bad as you can get. On particularly bad days, I had friends that would go home at 4am, only to sleep a few hours and come back in the office at 8am. I once had a friend fall asleep in a public bathroom when we were at a restaurant. One of our friends went to go check on him to see if he was okay, and he was sleeping. That’s how overworked he was. That being said, there are areas that aren’t that bad. Sales and Trading for example works reasonable hours. Not much work can get done after the markets close. You might want to look into these fields if you’re concerned about the hours. As for banking, most people only do it for a few (2) years before they burn out and move on to something else. Some stay and the hours do get better the higher you go up. It does also open great opportunities for you down the road (if that’s where you want to make your career), so I’m not saying you should give up on it or anything. Just be aware that it’s bad. Personally though, I just said F that life and went a totally different way.

      1. VictoriaQ*

        Thank you for your reply! I mean, I’m technically financial mathematics, so I think I have a broader range of careers I can go for. I’ve mostly focused on banking and financial management because I found those ones the most interesting/familiar. That said, I’ll definitely make sure I do my due diligence in trying to find a place with reasonable(ish) hours. Are there other finance fields that aren’t so terrible?

        1. CoffeeLover*

          One friend was in Equity Research and he had very reasonable hours. Early start (I think started at 6:30) but he usually went home at 4pm. There are also finance jobs at smaller financial institutions that generally have better hours. I recently interviewed at a credit card and loan company for a business development role (ie evaluating investment and m&a opportunities) and that had reasonable hours. Unfortunately, a lot of jobs with reasonable hours want you to have a few years of banking experience.

          There’s a great site called mergersandinquisitions (I didn’t want to get into moderation with a link). The guy who runs the site used to work in the finance industry and he has some great articles. He even has some well written “a day in the life of a …”. Check it out.

          I think being in financial mathematics definitely opens some different doors for you. Unfortunately it’s not an area I’m familiar with.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t work in either of those fields, but have you ever considered going working in financial aid at a university? There is wonderful work-life balance and you get to really make a difference.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      It really depends what area of banking or finance you want to go into. It also depends a lot more, I think, on the company culture and how well the business is organized.

      I work at a bank that really stresses work/life balance, and that comes directly from the CEO’s mouth. I very rarely see anyone other than the highest executives working more than 45 hours. Also, we have the people and resources we need. Prior to that I was at a bank where anyone who was salary wasn’t watching the clock at all, and it was depressing; I eventually burned out. That workaholic culture was modeled by all the executives and even though they didn’t come out and say we needed to pull long hours, it was implied. And we were very small so we all wore a lot of hats, there were never enough people or resources, and we were unprofitable.

  173. Valkyrie*

    I have this artist-friend who is truly incredible and I really think her goals and such could change the world, she makes everyone feel optimistic about the future. I’m an admin, and a really good one at that.

    She wants to hire me when she gets funding (I’m not holding my breath, don’t worry). I’m in a stable job I like, but working for her would be so much cooler than what I’m doing now, I’d care about it more, and quite frankly she needs me. I could manage everything for her and I’d kick butt at it.

    She asked me about my current compensation, salary, benefits, etc. I know my hourly rate and vacation package (which isn’t much) but I’m not sure the best way to factor in health insurance and 401k matching in order to give her my total compensation. Any tips or resources I can use to help calculate this total amount? Thanks!

    1. Anono-me*

      Check what it would cost you to carry your own similar insurance on your state’s Obama care website. (Don’t try to figure out what your employer is contributing now, because they are buying in bulk.) Contact a local investment counselor ask him or her what it would cost you out of pocket for a retirement plan with a similar eventual payout. (Make sure you are vested at current employer. )

      Also would you be a direct employee or a contractor? Contractors have to pay 100% of Soc Sec etc. out of their own pocket. (Rule of thumb is employee hourly wage times 1.3 to 1.5 for a similar contractor take home pay.)

  174. Anon For This*

    I recently moved to a new city. I’ve been taking some time off and looking to make a career change. I need to network. I want to do something that’s creative and technical and makes use of my background in information science but is more of a making things job than an organizing things job. I’m an ISTP, have an artistic side, know a little about a lot of things, and do my best work when I’m given a lot of autonomy and not much supervision. I do enjoy working with people. I just do best with less structure, if that makes sense.

    I want to find a new job by networking. I think that usually works the best. But I don’t know where to start or what role to look for specifically. I look at job postings and nothing seems to fit. But I know that a lot of jobs are not strictly what the ad says and finding a company that’s a good fit probably makes the biggest difference. That’s why I like to job hunt face to face instead of just sending my resume out.

    Ideas and suggestions?

    1. Her Grace*

      First thing you need to do is discover what roles will satisfy your criteria. If you don’t even know what kind of job you’re looking for, no amount of networking will help.
      Make a list of jobs by hitting up the high school career counseling Web sites, taking their aptitude tests and see what pops up.
      Once you have a solid list, then you can start hitting up people in those industries.

      1. Anon For This*

        Thank you! I’m pretty far along in my career so it’s more of a matter of finding a good fit within one industry than finding a new industry. I have a master’s degree and going back for another isn’t possible right now. I’m in a broad, growing industry. I’m trying to find something that relates to my slightly odd variety of skills and is also a step in a direction that I want to go in. So I do need to network. It’s just a matter of finding a good place to start.

  175. Young and Managing*

    I’ve felt pretty crummy all week. My boss got on me about a project because there were multiple managers working on a project, but she really wanted one point of contact. It would have been fine if that was originally told to us, but now it’s like we are all getting scolded for trying to work together since there wasn’t much direction to begin with.

    Anyway, another co-worker of mine came to vent today because of how our boss has been snappy with her as well.

    It’s bringing everyone in the department down. Any suggestions on how to approach?

    1. Anon anon anon*

      Could you approach it as a group? Maybe put together a team structure and communication plan and have her look at it? It sounds like she’s unhappy about something, either at work or outside of work (the snappiness), so I’d keep it really simple and be extra polite.

  176. couch sweet potato*

    I’m a social media professional and realized I should have an online portfolio. However, the bulk of my copywriting has been writing/creating social media posts and I average about 10,000 words a month(!). Does anyone have ideas on how to structure a professional website? I want to highlight that I have extensive writing experience, but I’m unsure how to do it without uploading everything I’ve ever written.

  177. Nacho*

    Customer service question: Does anyone care if their customer service agent tells you they can’t do something? My company decided we’re no longer allowed to use “negative words” like can’t or unfortunately, so now we have to find new ways to tell people it’s not possible to prove we’re not affiliated with that random website you found that has nothing to do with us, or that our system can’t refund to AMEX cards.

    It just seems silly to me.

    1. Fictional Butt*

      Ooooh, so I have a semi-related question. I moved to a new state recently and have been procrastinating on registering my car. My insurance agent kept calling and calling asking when I was going to register it, but when I asked if there was a specific deadline I needed to do that by, she’d say “No, whenever works for you!” Then suddenly I got a notification saying that my insurance is going to be cancelled if I don’t register my car ASAP. Is my agent just a dumbass, or do you think there’s some kind of rule that they can’t tell me my insurance is at risk of being cancelled because it isn’t the kind of thing customers want to hear?

      If the latter: OMG that is freaking dumb.

    2. Turtlewings*

      Completely agree that it’s silly. Avoiding unnecessary “no’s” and focusing on the positive is a good practice, but sometimes there isn’t a yes to get to. As a customer I would rather know the true situation and not feel like I’m being led in circles.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d rather they be honest than BS and pretend to be helpful but not actually do anything for me.

      1. Anon For This*

        I agree. Being clear and honest is more helpful. I think it also helps to apologize, empathize, take responsibility for your shortcomings, and recommend an alternative solution if there is one.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      It’s this very type of thing that ticks me off. It shows that companies are making people follow stupid rules and it’s very annoying to the customer.

  178. Em*

    I commented last week about my coworker who makes sure to tell me when they can hear me eating chips at lunchtime.

    I’m an intern, and while they’re not my supervisor, they do instruct me on day-to-day tasks.

    Long story short, I’m ditching the chips. I want to make a good impression!

    1. Victoria, Please*

      Replace ’em with carrots. ;-) /JOKE

      That is very courteous and kind of you, Em, I hope your coworker notices.

  179. Camellia*

    I know it’s late in the day but I just had to share; maybe I’ll re-post next week too.

    My daughter is an Assistant Director of an organization and is conducting interviews for a manager position. She just had a candidate that was fantastic! He had all the experience needed for the role, everything was great, she mentally moved him to the top of the list during the interview. Then, when she walked him out, he said, “Thanks, sweetie!”

    She said she didn’t say anything but was sure her face reflected her reaction. Resume went into the trash.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Harsh but I am super glad to hear it. I mean, I think if she otherwise really wanted him to join, she could set really explicit guidelines that that bullshit is Not To Be Tolerated and maybe he’d learn/do better. But it’s totally not her responsibility to do that, and I love that she took action :)

    5. Victoria, Please*

      Wow. Way to torpedo yourself, dude. I hope her face DID show it splashed out like police car flashers.

    6. Anon anon anon*

      I live in an area where people say “sweetie” a lot, but it would still be a weird thing to say at the end of an interview. Sounds like a bullet dodged! What a weirdo.

  180. CoffeeLover*

    How engaged are you at work? Do you actually care about your job and your organization (beyond the pay check)? How do you keep yourself engaged?

    I’ve had a few jobs now (I’m a few years out of college) and I’ve never really cared. Don’t get me wrong, I get the work done and have been praised as being a “star performer”. I do what I’m asked and I do it well. To some extent, I guess you could say I care about my reputation. More though, I care about my coworkers and don’t want to make their lives harder (I’ve always been lucky to work with great people). But it’s not like I really care.

    When the situation gets stressful or something goes wrong, I feel totally at peace because well, I don’t care. If I mess up, I fix the problem and move on. I’m not in a high-risk position (by my own definition). No one is going to die because of me. Maybe, absolute worst case scenario, I do something completely cataclysmic and the company loses major money. But this would have to be a mess up of epic proportions.

    I’ve worked in high-performing, high-“stress” environments with clients and high-profile work. I’ve done development work in Africa. I’ve worked in industry. Engagement was low across the board.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Whether I’ve been a teacher, working admin, or doing tech work, I’ve always been somehow involved with schools or education, so I’m usually fairly engaged with the work and care about the organization. But I don’t know that that’s a necessary thing.

      You may be getting messages about dream jobs or never having to work a day in your life if you love your job. That’s all bunk. Whether people’s lives depend on it or not, your job is ultimately your paycheck. You may get other things out of it (you mentioned caring about your co-workers), but that’s not the primary thing. The primary thing is the paycheck. Unless you’re independently wealthy, there’s no shame in not caring about your job or org.

      1. Julianne*

        I’m trying to find the balance between being engaged with my work and not taking things personally. For me, the first tends to lead to the second, but I have a really, really tough group of students this year, and I’m experiencing a lot of frustration and self doubt because of it. I don’t think I could do this job without the positive feelings it gives me (feeling engaged in my work, feeling passionate about what I do), but I think there are other jobs that exist where I wouldn’t need those feelings. Some days I fantasize about having one of those jobs, admittedly.

    2. Book Lover*

      That sounds lovely. Probably allows you to function at a higher level and more calmly than most. I do have the ‘people will die if I screw up’ thing going on, and it is stressful. One day maybe I will sell books or ice cream instead :)

    3. Overeducated*

      I really care about my organization but for structural and managerial reasons I can’t make the impact I think I/we could and should. So I am not as engaged as I have been in other jobs. I put in my hours, try to be helpful to my colleagues, but try not to take it too much to heart because it just bums me out too much.

      When I was teaching I was as engaged as I had time to be. When I had a related public facing job I was highly engaged because I like and am good at that sort of role (and miss it now, but don’t know how to do it and make a high enough salary).

      When I was doing research I enjoyed having a pretty flexible, autonomous, interesting way to make a paycheck but really didn’t feel my work was that important. I wasn’t curing cancer, it made no real difference to others if I worked 35 hours a week or obsessed and never slept. This is probably why I didn’t become a professor, you have to really believe your work is a vital contribution to humanity that no one else could make, and I never quite did.

    4. Pudgy Patty*

      I feel this way to some extent, but I’m also a people pleaser, so if people say something mildly negative to me, or there’s conflict, it completely ruins my day. But I don’t actually care about the work. Like, at all.

      I’ve been working over a decade and there is literally nothing out there that excites me, so I think this is just me as well. Others are so much more passionate than I am, and while they get promotions, they also get drawn into conflict/arguments about work. Because I do not care, I never feel personally offended by decisions. But I am very sensitive to critical comments on my work, if that makes sense. I take things personally, but don’t feel very invested. Odd, I suppose, but I understand you to some degree.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      I really care about my job and my org and I’m very engaged, but I’m only emotionally invested in the things I have control over ie my own work. I’m not emotionally invested in the things I can’t control.

      This has been super helpful as I used to be more all or nothing.

    6. JulieBulie*

      I am engaged in my work because I find it fascinating. I am engaged with (some of) my coworkers because I like them and we help one another. I am engaged with our part of the business unit because that’s what my life revolves around.

      But I am not “engaged” with the Big Entity Corporation that owns us. They don’t pay much attention to us except to squeeze our budget (even though we outperform many of the other groups in our business unit). Their twice-yearly survey on “employee engagement” is a big turnoff too. They seem more interested in getting us to tell them that they have 100% employee engagement than in actually listening to us. There is a memo field at the end of the survey where we can share specific feedback, but when the survey is done, they shift responsibility to local management to “identify issues and develop action plans.” It’s as if they don’t read our feedback at all and want to punish our managers. (Our CEO is at least five heads up from our highest-ranking local leader, and thousands of miles away, so the “action plans” really can’t reach into the areas where they’d need to reach.)

      “Engagement” is a loaded word. Engagement is something that you feel. It’s not something that an employer can impose on you. Pushing engagement is a good way to get people to disengage.

    7. Her Grace*

      I’m not terribly engaged at work. For me, it’s just a job whose sole purpose is to provide money for the things I really want to do.
      Yeah, I’d love a job of passion that engaged me *and* brought in a living wage (and I’m trying to transition to that) but until I can, the Day Job will suffice.

  181. EventsManagerPhin*

    I’m trying to hire two positions right now and my job ads clearly ask for a resume and cover letter. It blows my mind how many submissions I get with no cover letter! Is this normal? I swear, even people with relevant experience don’t include a cover letter, and most of the “cover letters” that I do get are just a couple sentences basically saying “I’m interested in this job. Please see my resume. I look forward to an interview!” Thoughts?

    1. LAI*

      Yes, this is normal. If there’s no cover letter, I’ll very quickly glance at the resume but unless it’s really stellar, it’s almost an automatic denial. For the form cover letters, I cut them a little more slack – yes, it’s a terrible letter but at least they followed instructions. I figure maybe they just never stumbled onto AAM or had anyone teach them how to write a good letter but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wouldn’t be a good employee.

    2. Nanc*

      One thing we’ve been trying the past few times we’ve recruited is to list some things we want to see in the cover letter. As in, please include a cover letter and resume in one doc, cover letter first. Your cover letter should answer the following [appropriate number here] questions.

      Not only do we get more cover letters, but they’re better cover letters.

  182. HerNameWasLola*

    Has anyone had any luck in changing jobs during a personal bankruptcy (chapter 13)? My current job/company has become progressively unbearable but I’m hesitant to start looking since there is a good chance they will run my credit report. I work in admin/HR but also have experience in Finance.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I think there’s a very good chance that a potential employer would never even run a credit check on you in the first place, so I would not let that stop you from applying for jobs that interest you.

      To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never had my credit checked when applying for a job. When I worked in HR we paid for companies to check court records looking for arrest and criminal records and in some cases to look at driving records for positions where someone would drive a company vehicle.

      Furthermore, a criminal record never stopped my employer from hiring someone. Theoretically a serious crime might, but it never came up when I worked there. DUIs did prevent some people from getting hired for jobs that required them to drive, though, and some people had to be let go when they received a DUI. Our auto insurance company wouldn’t cover them so we couldn’t hire them or keep them on if they had to drive for us.

      In your case, even if a potential employer found out you declared bankruptcy, there’s still a good chance that they might hire you, so don’t let it stop you.

  183. Kat Em*

    Running a YUGE meeting this weekend. It was a last-minute change from another city to mine, and I’ve never been in charge to this degree before.

    Yeah, I’ve got a team helping out, and everybody is SUPER understanding and knows both that the level of responsibility is new to me and that I only had two weeks to prepare.

    Still nervous though.

  184. m*

    I was a few days away from an in-person interview (having passed the video/technical interview) when they canceled, saying they had hired someone else. They added, “We hope that you will consider applying again and will definitely look you up when we are hiring again.” OK, fine.
    A little while later I see they have a similar opening posted, so I emailed the hiring person I’d been communicating with to ask if I should (re)apply (I thought maybe it was actually the same posting that they’d forgotten to take down). No reply.
    It’s been a couple of weeks. The posting is still up. I’d really like to work there. What should I do next?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think there’s much else you can do right now. Wait until yet another position opens up, and apply for that?

  185. Pudgy Patty*

    Has anyone gone to school part-time while working? Do you have tips on how to balance a full and heavy work load with school work, not to mention your relationship and childcare commitments and health and fitness?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I’m doing it right now– I started a year ago. I work 45+ hours per week and am in graduate school part-time. I won’t lie, it’s really really hard. I don’t have time to work out most days since I get home around 8 p.m. most nights. My relationship with my SO has suffered at times because I take my stress out on him or don’t process it well. I have become an obsessive scheduler because if I don’t schedule EVERYTHING out in advance, nothing will get done. Even basic things like grocery shopping and cleaning the house are hard.

      If I had more time, I would dedicate time every day to working out, which would reduce my stress a lot. But time is the one thing I don’t have…

      Honestly I cannot imagine doing this with children, but it really depends on your academic program and your work schedule. Even the ability to work from home would simplify things a lot for me, but sadly that’s not an option.

    2. NeverNicky*

      Schedule, schedule, schedule. Get up an hour earlier to read/research/write. Say goodbye to using your annual leave for anything other than studying. Make some time for activities other than work/study but it won’t be much. And don’t try to o everything- something will have to go. I graduated at my heaviest weight, but it was a small price to pay because – despite all the negative sounding stuff above, getting my degree was such a positive thing for me.

  186. Hullabullwooooh*

    If you’re walking down the hallway at your office and you see that one of your coworkers has, somehow, been shrunk down to just 2 inches tall, what would you do?

  187. Obviously anon*

    Venting: our CEO has been making noises about “some staff” “maybe” being “asked” to take pay cuts in order to preserve other jobs for a few weeks now. This week, the hinting got more pointed and looks like next week I may have a meeting to talk about a salary reduction of up to 10%.

    However, a portion of my compensation is sales commission, and that’s down 50% over last year because the entire company’s sales are in the toilet. Effectively, I’ve already had almost a 20% cut, and 10% of base salary on top of that would really suck. I could make it work, but I’d be unhappy. There’s no sign that sales will pick up next year, so I might be piling pay cut on top of pay cut.

    The CEO’s spouse has a great job and the CEO has already volunteered to take several cuts because the second income insulates them. I don’t have a second income to fall back on.

    Any suggestions for how I can word “Given how much I’ve already lost this year over last year, and the pretty poor outlook for next year, I don’t think a salary cut is appropriate?”

    1. Troutwaxer*

      “Given how much I’ve already lost this year over last year, and the pretty poor outlook for next year, I don’t think a salary cut is appropriate?”

      Start with “Effectively, I’ve already had a 20 percent cut” and go on from there. And your feedback as to why there has been a 20 percent cut may be important.

      1. Obviously anon*

        I don’t think “I’ve had a 20% pay cut because your stupid decisions are coming home to roost” is going to get me off on the right foot with the CEO. I’ll figure out another way to phrase it.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          You’d definitely want to wait until you’re asked to give feedback – just the “I’ve already taken a 20 percent pay cut” is more than enough to get the ball rolling.

    2. Book Lover*

      I know this is probably something you are already doing, but you need to be looking for a new job.

      I am sorry :(

    3. Specialk9*

      No, you can’t really say ‘no thanks, no pay cut for me’ because then the only option for them is to fire you. It’s not a choice between 100% pay and 70% pay, it’s a choice between 70% pay or 0% pay.

      And yes, there is no saving of this one, job search hard – layoffs are a-comin!

      But also, a CEO who will take a pay cut too? That’s unusually honorable behavior! Give them a big dose of credit – I’ve never known a CEO who would do that.

  188. Anon For Days*

    Anon on this, just in case, but any advice for dealing with a junior who is a PITA? I’m her “manager” two days a week (I get all the responsibility with none of the pay) and getting her to do anything I ask is like pulling teeth. I’ll ask her to call people: “I’ll do that tomorrow.” “No, now please.” Sigh. “OKAY.” Doesn’t happen. I’ll ask her to clean, and she half-heartedly strolls around the shop with a damp rag in her hand. Stock comes in, I’ll ask her to leave it (we have afternoon lulls so I usually put stock in there. She waits until I go on lunch then puts it in). I’ve spoken to my manager, the overall boss, about it and she supports me – then changes her tune when she’s talking to the junior. The weekend manager complained about junior leaving messes when she closes by herself on Fridays, the boss was supportive and told manager to write up task lists… she threw the lists out and now she and her husband come in on Friday nights to get the jobs done that junior should be doing. Should try to do anything? Or just accept it’s a mess and that junior is going to be a pain forever?

    2. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      This kind of thing is one of the dangers of having multiple managers like that. Could you approach your manager and suggest that this junior might do better with one, consistent manager?

  189. Jamie*

    I found out today through social media that a coworker of mine volunteers for an organization that assists people who have immigrated / are trying to immigrate with getting everything in order legally and with assistance when they arrive here. The key word here is *legally* as this charity only assists those who immigrate through legal means as per their mandate. Her social media expresses strong anti-undocumented/”illegal immigrant” views (I don’t believe anyone is illegal, I’m just using that term to demonstrate my point) and she thinks they all should be deported without exception. The other organization she volunteers for goes after people/industry who employ undocumented workers and those who shelter them and seeks to have them punished through legal means. I know it sounds dramatic but I am heartbroken. I always thought she was a nice person, she is always quick to call out bad behavior like harassment or racism in the workplace whether it is against her or others. I had no idea she had these views. I am not sure if I should say anything to her or leave it alone. (Part of this is because I don’t want to start anything, and part of it is because she is Native-American and not an immigrant or descended from immigrants herself). I am just so disappointed and needed to write this out.

    1. Sam Foster*

      Leave it alone. Ask yourself what the possible outcomes could be. Is there even the slightest chance that even one of them will be positive for you?

    2. Ann O.*

      She may still be a generally nice person. We’re not binary. Immigration issues can be complicated to understand, and her being Native American may inform her views in ways you can’t fully understand (or not. I don’t know. But to me, it seems reasonable that Native Americans may have an unfavorable view of unrestricted immigration).

      I think you probably shouldn’t say anything because this seems to be an issue too near and dear to your heart for anything productive to happen. You’re unlikely to impact her PoV through direct confrontation, especially if you have no idea how she came to her PoV. But if you feel you really need to, try to do it with more of a calling in spirit than a calling out spirit.

    3. Specialk9*

      This isn’t the worst combo possible, esp in the Age of Voldemort, she could *just* hate illegals and spew alt right hatred. Being opposed to illegal immigration and also putting real skin in the game to help people immigrate through the Byzantine legal system… That’s more than most of us who are cool with illegal immigration do!

      It’s a weird phenomenon I see, though – My former family member in-law immigrated legally (though she was a pathological liar and married a US citizen so who knows the real truth) and she was so ugly toward “illegales”. You’d think that being Hispanic and knowing how unfair the system is (unless one has money), she’d be kinder.

  190. Marie*

    Hello everyone, first time job seeker here (current fourth year student). I was hoping to get some advice from more experienced people.

    How would you recommend explaining non-standard qualifications? I have several official language qualifications (In two different languages that are in demand at the moment in the UK). These are the tests administered by the governments of the countries where these languages are spoken and demonstrate my level of fluency.

    The problem is these tests are set by different governments and have different scales. Language A (which I am almost fluent in but not quite) has a 5-1 scale with 5 being the lowest and 1 being the highest. I have a level 2 qualification which is taken to mean business fluency (meaning I can talk and negotiate at a high level and read papers but would struggle to pick up a large novel in the language and read it as well as read the script as this isn’t a language based on roman letters)

    In Language B I also have a level 2 qualification but the scale on this exam has 1 as the lowest grade and 5 as the highest. Level 2 means an ability to read and write the alphabet (which isn’t romanised) and basic grammar and conversational skills e.g ordering food, asking directions, talking about hobbies.

    I fear if I put on my CV that I have a level 2 in both qualifications they will assume my level is the same in both languages. But I worry about patronising hiring managers to much or over complicating the issue. I thought about listing it as follows;

    Language A qualification level 2 (scale is 5-1 one being the highest)
    Language B qualification level 2 (1-5 scale five being the highest)
    or
    Language A qualification level 2 (business fluency)
    Language B qualification level 2 (Elementary proficiency)

    These qualifications are important if I ever want to work in either country as above a certain level makes getting a work visa much easier and the companies I am currently looking at are all multinationals who offer time abroad on their graduate programmes and several graduate programmes I am interested in are actively recruiting speakers of these two languages. Should I assume the hiring manager will have done all their research about language qualifications and not explain it? Should I do one of the ideas mentioned above? Do i need to explain in more detail? As a first time job seeker am I over thinking this?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Your second one. “Qualified with “Business Proficiency.”” If some asks about your test scores explain that the tests are given by two different authorities, each of which grades differently, and give them the scores.

      Maybe a graphical representation like this might work: (Hopefully this will translate appropriately when I press “Submit”)

      Language A: Language B:
      1 5
      2 (I’m Here.) 4
      3 3
      4 2 (I’m Here)
      5 1

      1. Marie*

        Thanks, it didn’t format properly but I think I get what you mean. I have tried my own table hopefully that will work better.

        Language A: 5 4 3 2(I’m here) 1
        Language B: 1 2(I’m here) 3 4 5

        1. Troutwaxer*

          The reason I built it vertically is so the height on the graph would be the relevant visual information. I don’t think it works as well horizontally, but YMMV.

    2. NeverNicky*

      I think I would leave out the numbers but make it clear that you have been independently assessed so the statement is reliable not opinion. I would format it:
      Language X – business proficiency (Test A)
      Language Y – elementary proficiency (Test B)
      Good luck with the job search!

  191. Landlocked Thalassophile*

    I’ve come to the realization that my boss never definitely does anything. She often “defiantly” orders supplies next week or will “diffidently” get around to my annual review. Occasionally she will deffinatly read that email from corporate. But nothing is ever definite.
    And this realization amuses me.

    1. Anonity*

      When working as an editor, I had an intern tell me she would “defiantly” get that story to me by COB. I wondered why she’d chosen journalism and copy editing as a career.

  192. New ceramics student seeking internship*

    New grad student in a professional program, applying for an internship — and, uh, i already knew this field paid better than my previous academic-nonprofit job, but a little stunned that the internship pays better than any job I’ve ever had before…

    But, anyway: the posting says at the top, very clearly, “Pay: $X/hr undergraduate – $Y/hr graduate student Hours: 15-30 hours per week” … but at the bottom, in the instructions for how to apply, they ask for a salary requirement.

    I assume this is a case of one person writing the internship description and then sending it to HR, who dropped it in their standard job-posting template, but how should this be handled? My current inclination is to either ignore, or add a line at the end of my cover letter to the effect of “Regarding salary requirement, I understand the set pay for this position is $Y/hr.” (I will of course have already mentioned the fact that I am a grad student in the field…)

    1. JulieBulie*

      My inclination would be to simply ignore the salary requirement, but your strategy might be smarter if there’s a chance that HR will chuck any application that doesn’t have a salary requirement.

  193. Florida blues*

    What’s the most embarrassing thing that has ever happened at your workplace?

    A few weeks after starting a new job I was in the kitchen with a glass bottle of Starbucks frappuccino. For some reason I opened the bottle, put the cap back on, and shook it. BAD IDEA! The coffee exploded all over the kitchen, I mean ALL of it: it was on the floor, counters, sink area, all over my clothes, in my hair…IT. WAS. HORRIBLE.

    I immediately grabbed the roll of paper towels and started furiously scrubbing down all the surfaces. No one walked in on me and to this day no one found out.

    1. Woman of a Certain Age*

      Over the years, I’ve witnessed several situations where various people could not get to the restroom on time and had “accidents.” There were even a couple of “accidents” involving our old friend, “Flo.” The people always embarrassed to death and they retreated to the restroom to gather their wits and get cleaned up. A couple of times they were able to change clothes at work, but usually they went home. Sometimes they changed clothes and came back to work and sometimes they were gone for the rest of the day. I’ve never heard of anyone fired for something like this (like in a recent news story). People really didn’t talk much about it.

  194. Jessen*

    So what exactly is the rules on religion at work? I try to go by, don’t discuss it, but incidental mentions are ok (and honestly kind of hard to avoid), and religious items for personal use are ok. But I’ve also met people who’ve said, if it’s ok to bring religion into the workplace like that then it is unfair to restrict what people say on it.

    1. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      I think your rules are good. It doesn’t have to be either a free for all or a complete forbidden thing-that-shall-not-be-named. Evangelizing/recruiting is a clear no go, but if someone asks how your weekend was, it’s fine to say “Our daughter was christened, so we had a busy weekend with lots of family in town. Went well.” or similar.

  195. many bells down*

    Super late, but, is anyone familiar with Paycom? I applied to an internal job posting, but today it shows I have no applications. Is that a thing that happens when they pull applications to review? Did it glitch? Did they just toss my app?

  196. Roma*

    I just picked up my first few freelance gigs, which seem like they’re going to become a regular thing! I also have a regular 9 to 5, but I’m job searching right now and am in the process of fixing up my resume. How soon is too soon to add my freelance work? I’ve only done two assignments so far, and I started about 3 weeks ago. This feels too soon to me, but I’m freelancing in a field that I’m interested in moving into and I don’t have much other related work experience, so I think it would be valuable.

    1. Effie, who is fine*

      I think it’s fine to add, especially since it’s relevant! Don’t oversell it but you don’t have to hide it either.

  197. Jessen*

    Another question: I’m a night shift worker looking for a non night shift job. Is there a good way to politely request that interviews be scheduled as early in the morning as possible? I’m almost certainly not going to be any good at a 1pm interview right now, I’m sure I’d be screwing up right and left.

    1. Sam Foster*

      Be forthright when someone contacts you for an interview. For me, I say “can we schedule it first thing or last thing in the day so I can rearrange my work commitments around it.” For you, how about “I work the night shift, can we meet in the early part of the day?”

      1. Jessen*

        Is that usually how it works? Generally what I’m used to is “Ok, we have an interview at X time, are you going to be there?”

  198. TK*

    Have a bit of a horror story from a few years ago, that is now rearing its ugly head once more. At the time, I’d been in a role for 8 years, and highly respected in my field. I was then headhunted by an organisation I’d done some voluntary work for, offering me double my existing wage and various perks. My original position was in the public sector, and they just weren’t able to match the perks, or offer any real chance of progressing further.

    When I had an interview with the new employer, and from the description, I was told I’d be leading a new team, and expected to share my knowledge with them to achieve targets. Reality set in once I joined though, and it turned out my own manager was a micromanager, who in turn also wanted to micromanage my team. It also became clear very early on that I knew a lot more than my manager on the industry specific parts.

    The role itself was an analytical role, and through the course of my normal workload I found various coverups, such as grossly overstated savings, non-compliance with legal framework, and some morally questionable behaviours towards captive customers whose only escape from this company would be to move homes or die, neither of which I’d consider ideal.

    Concerned with my findings, I wrote everything up, and asked my manager for information. She immediately went on the defensive, and began increasingly undermining me to my reports. Part way through this, I unfortunately became slightly unwell. I passed out through exhaustion one day, and every thing was changed in the couple days break I had.

    The line manager had passed this to HR, and said I had a long history of this (untrue). Because of the faint, which my own doctor checked into and was satisfied it wasn’t anything major, I was told not to drive for work purposes which I accept. My HR liaison contact was changed partway through the process, at which point they insisted work purposes also meant commuting to the office. Rather than do a 10min drive, they wanted me to spend 2 hours each way on public transport. The legal advice I took at the time was that, as it was my own personal vehicle, and I was not paid for my commute, it wasn’t considered in scope and having had the all clear from my doctor, continued driving to and from work, but not during work.

    This then ended up in being brought to a disciplinary committee, which was loaded with personal friends of my line manager. During this, they produced videos of me driving, outside of work hours, and actually some distance from the office itself. There were even photos of me outside of work meeting up with friends and former colleagues, which my line manager claimed was me trying to broker dodgy deals.

    I left the company of my own choice shortly after this, but the campaign didn’t really stop there. An anonymous report was made, claiming I’d fainted at the wheel which was untrue, in an effort to have my driving license revoked. It took my doctor writing, as well as many months of tests, for the investigation to stop on this. I also had police turning up at my house in the early hours as I’d apparently been seen driving and it was reported by a concerned citizen. Awkward part on that though is that I’ve been teetotal for 10 years.

    Luckily a short time after leaving, I found my current role, and we’re really excelling, and my team are winning huge new contracts left right and centre. A lot of what we do is mandated by government regulation, so there’s a lot of industry conferences, and word got back to me that I had apparently been charged with fraud, and that was why I was no longer at the company with the horrid protocols. Everything these days is going great though workwise. I did hear from one of my old team at the old company (who others had tried to sideline whilst I was there and I opted to nip it in the bud) that she is now the only one remaining. The old company got caught out in the end, and heads rolled.

    Appreciate this is a pretty long read, but out of interest does anyone else have any similar examples of someone reacting so severely to try and damage someone who was, by definition, a whistleblower?

    2. JulieBulie*

      I don’t know much about whistleblower retaliation, but trying to get your drivers license revoked for driving (with your doctor’s blessing) is mind-blowing. I am glad you’re with a better organization now and that your ex-job had a big purge.

      So someone started a rumor that you were charged with fraud? I wish I knew what to say about that. Hopefully, no one who matters will believe it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have seen this type of thing. I think my story is not as big as yours though.
      My wise friend used to say that we can tell how on target we are by how much retaliation we see. And he also said that when ever we report something we have to be prepared to pay a price for it. I learned this AFTER I reported something.
      I am sorry this happened to you. I hope you feel safer now.

    4. Observer*

      Wow! Is there any way to find out who is spreading the rumor and getting a lawyer to write them a letter?

  199. Mehmehmeh*

    I have started working with the company 4 years ago as a specialist. I have been working extremely hard and soon I was assigned a team of two people to lead, and shortly afterward I underwent a management training and I was promoted to a senior specialist. I had two people assigned to my team: one was wonderful, and the other one was extremely difficult to manage.

    To make things more complicated, the ‘wonderful’ person was recruited by me (I knew her from Uni) and I fought hard to have her employed. That team member has an amazing ‘work ethics’, she is a titan of work, she is not smart though and often the lack of thinking things through adds the extra burden to her work.

    I was asking for some help/support from the more experienced colleagues from the management but got no help. Later we have reshuffled the resource and the unmotivated team member was taken away, and I was left with the hard-working, efficient one. My project was going really well until my ‘good’ team member has written a complaint about me, as she was suffering from stress at work.

    I was not told what she said, I don’t know what was stressing her, I always have viewed her work quality as wonderful and I thought I was supporting her in her every move. I do not know exactly what she was complaining about, but the stuff I know was, in my opinion, untrue (for example she was claiming the work plan was not scheduled, while I have sent her project charters applicable for months and she has been following them). She was also complaining about me not putting tasks into a broader context, but I have my emails to her explaining the context in details. At the time of complaint, the other former team member (who was truly horrendous) was asked about my management, and he told them I was stressing him out too.

    Anyway, my team has been dismissed and I was temporarily banned from managing anybody. There was no official procedure, and the management refused to tell me what she has said.

    Since then (5 months) the former team member is driving me bonkers by calling my decisions ridiculous, by complaining about my minor moves on a regular basis to other colleagues, by petty things like using my mug or using the equipment I have booked, also by leaving the conversation on a professional topic halfway through, etc. The list is long. All things small and petty. She also talks loud and doesn’t talk to me, excludes me from whole-team email and in if I was her manager I would definitely try to talk to her and demand she adjusts her behavior so it is polite and civil. She does those weird, annoying things: she asks two other colleagues in the room if they want a coffee, and completely ignores my presence, etc – pathetic stuff in my opinion.

    I have raised the behavior issue with the management because it really upsets me, and got an advice that I should be the ‘bigger person’ and ask the former team member for a coffee to talk about the issues between us.

    I’ve tried to ask you another question before, but I have realised upon re-reading it that my email was rather scatter-brained and not particularly informative.

    Another colleague, with whom I do not have non-professional interactions with, has always been rather patronising (not to say sexist). Usually those are comments like ‘Don’t worry about this’ when I ask a particular question or just condescending comments on anything I suggest when it comes to any improvements I suggest.

    I have been promoted before him (January last year) and then he followed mid-year to the same level. We were supposed to form a resource-management team together and it is not going well. First, while I do more work on the stuff, he insists on being the ‘face’ of the team (sitting on a committee, chairing meeting). Part of me can’t care less because I am rather tasked than meeting orientated, however, I started finding that frustrating when it is put into context.

    Today this colleague during our meeting suggested it is a good time to establish ground rules of our work, and the rule he suggested was that I run any email I am intending to send to the lab members so he can correct the tone of the emails I am sending. He said he doesn’t have any comments regarding merit, just the tone. I have responded that I am very happy to discuss the actions before sending out the email, but I find his comments regarding my tone frankly patronizing. He then referred to a particular sentence in my email as ‘offensive’ (it was something like ‘I am sure if you work together and plan accordingly everything will be fine’). Also in the earlier today’s email between me, him, and another colleague he has said he is very interested in the other colleague’s opinion on the topic – without any mention of me. When I completed his tasks when he was off sick he has never acknowledged anything on that front either.

    Am I unreasonable by being more and more offended by his actions? I am not having a ‘time of my life’ at the moment at work in general, but this guy is not senior to me, he is not my friend giving me friendly advice, but someone trying to put his stamp on what and how am I saying/writing. I am not asking people for unreasonable tasks etc in my emails.

    Another colleague has just frozen me off for 6 months and and only started talking back to me when I started. Yeah I know it takes two to tango, but the stopping was only his initiative. Again, no reaction from the management.

    What shall I do? Shall I somehow follow this up – and if so – how? Why the management never addresses the behaviour of anybody in this bloody company (except for me and I am not the baddie)? Is it just a bad place and am I sabotaging my career by being here? It is a very cool place but I am paid 15’000 USD per year less than the market salary.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You may be done with this company, but I can’t tell for sure.

      All we can do is change what we are doing and see where that puts us. Perhaps they use a more conversational tone with each other and you are coming across as formal?

      I was kind of wondering about your first paragraph where you talk about your hard working employee and then say she is not smart enough and does a bunch of stuff wrong. If I were her, I would be looking for another job just on that alone. There will always be people brighter than us, or people duller than us. As bosses, it is up to us to figure out how to draw the best out of each employee.
      It sounds like you give her piles of work loaded with a detailed list of what to do. She probably thinks that you think she can’t do the job.
      That’s just the first paragraph. I thought about going through paragraph by paragraph but I think looking at the big picture is probably best.

      Is there anyone in this place that you like or admire? I am picking up on a dislike or a lack of respect on your part for the people you work with.

      You say that you do not ask anything unreasonable in your emails. Respectfully, that is in your perspective, but how do your employees think about that? As supervisors we have to flex some to meet the needs of our subordinates. How have you been looking after the needs of your subordinates, what things have you done? If they ask you for something do you get it for them or explain why you can’t get it for them? Do you watch their work and try to identify on your own how you might bring in supportive materials for them?

      While it is probably true that you are not the baddie, it is also true that no employee is perfect. We all have things about us that we can improve. How do you handle advice from cohorts? Are you likely to listen and make some adjustments or are you more likely to disregard what is said? What areas are you targeting for self-improvement now?

      There is an Eastern saying which I will misquote badly. It goes, “Which is stronger the oak tree or the willow tree?” Most people would say the oak tree as oak is famous for making good furniture, flooring etc. In this saying the answer is the willow tree. And the reason is what happens to the two trees in a bad storm. The oak holds itself ridged and gets broken in half. The willow on the other hand, bends with the winds and the rains. So the willow, while losing a few branches here and there does not break in half and fall to the ground. When the storm is over, the willow retains its full height.

      If we want to weather a storm more often than not we MUST flex. Start looking around and figuring out where you can flex here.

      1. Mehmehmeh*

        Not So NewReader, thank you so much for your response – I really appreciate it!

        I definitely come across as cold-ish and formal, but it’s my personality – I am trying to be approachable but it doesn’t come to me naturally.

        “If I were her, I would be looking for another job just on that alone.” – I do not understand I think what you mean by this comment: I have never said that loud and I was not pointing to her errors in public (what is more, I corrected their outcomes on my own, what was causing a big increase in my workload because I actually had to check everything and never could trust the data interpretation). She has strengths and weaknesses – we all do. Her strength is her stellar work ethic and productivity. Her weakness is data interpretation and drawing conclusions from datasets (she has average skills in statistics etc but her ideas of what to do next are sometimes jaw-dropping, and while her attention t0 details when doing analytical procedures is spectacular, her experimental design reflects lack if the understanding of the process). I am on the other hand rather ok on that front – so in my team, I was front loading planning, agility, unexpected and difficult experiments on me. Yes, I do believe she can do her job in a sterling way, but she cannot do my job, even badly.

        I genuinely thought I am meeting her needs by adjusting the tasks to her, I also spent countless hours trying to teach her stuff (and that meant I had to stay longer doing my work). I spent years working as a successful tutor and I… quite often can teach people things. My other team member came to the company with zero skills or experience (through a governmental apprenticeship programme) and now his skills are great – I spent a lot of time with him and it worked.

        It’s not that I did not trust her because of my judgemental attitude: I have tried. She was failing. It was frustrating for me, for her, and detrimental for the project. But I never gave her hard time – I have calmly explained what went wrong… only to see the same mistake going on again (we are not talking about typos ;) but more like forgetting to include an appropriate control set over and over again – that makes the whole trial meaningless and one cannot form any conclusions from such attempt).

        I thought I am underlining also the team aspect: I was giving her a large amount of praise for the successful work on the project. Yes, she was given piles of work with the detailed description of how-to. She never stayed over hours, I always gave her time to think and ask questions, and every two weeks on 1-2-1 I’ve asked what she thinks about the workload (she said always she thinks it is ok).

        I do want to flex but I don’t know how can I flex in here – I cannot magically make her think. I thought I can think of her and give her space for the wonderful execution of the task – and she was a star performer.

        “Is there anyone in this place that you like or admire? I am picking up on a dislike or a lack of respect on your part for the people you work with.” Well… you are picking up well. I love our upper management and there are few people around I respect a lot, but it’s not common. The people I like are fantastic though.

        “How have you been looking after the needs of your subordinates, what things have you done? If they ask you for something do you get it for them or explain why you can’t get it for them? Do you watch their work and try to identify on your own how you might bring in supportive materials for them?”

        I was asking the ‘how are you doing’ questions on the 1-2-1. I was observing and I have suggested training. I always offered my help… Funnily enough, they have never asked me for something that resulted in a ‘No’. It is possible they weren’t asking me for anything important because I am a miserable bitch, but I think I would do everything in my powers not to say no. I have always been there for them first (and then I was staying over hours to do my stuff).

        I get VERY LITTLE advice – so I try to reach out to sources like this (and I really appreciate the advice) – so I want to flex but I don;t know what direction I can flex to without being pathetic and compromise my work :(. I am extremely worrying that this will affect how I interact with people and make this horrific bad vibe making me ridicuously unsuccesful. I am also tired because I am ending up doing all the work of the people I should be organising without any chance to ask them for sufficient quality or yield and that means I have to do both jobs to make the project fly :(

    2. Lalaroo*

      I know you may not read this, since my response is so late, but I wanted to respond anyway.

      I can see two possibilities here:
      1. You actually do have an issue with the way you interact with your coworkers. It sounds like both of your direct reports complained about your style and said that you were causing them a lot of stress, and I also count two coworkers in your comment that have completely stopped speaking to you for a lengthy period of time. That’s not normal, especially to have two. The issues your current teammate has seem to be aligned with the issues your other coworkers have had – namely, communication style. It seems possible that there is something about how you’re coming off to coworkers that is rubbing them the wrong way, and taking an honest look or asking someone you trust for their opinion will reveal it to you.

      2. This environment is not for you. There’s nothing wrong with how you’re interacting, but the culture at this particular workplace is so different from your natural tendencies that you are not fitting in well. I know that the rule is “If you run into one asshole in the morning, you met an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole,” but sometimes you really are in a bad situation full of assholes, so to speak. That’s kind of where I am now – past job of five years was wonderful, every one of my superior and most of my coworkers loved me, no one hated me; then I get to my current job, and it’s a toxic cesspit where the people who thrive are the ones who are dysfunctional enough to function well. I’m finally leaving, and I had to give up on changing their minds about me – there was something about me that a lot of them didn’t like, and I can’t figure it out, but after asking lots of people whose opinion I trust to evaluate my actions, I came to the conclusion that it just wasn’t a culture fit and I’m moving on. That may be what you need to do as well (especially if you’re paid so much below market rate!).

  200. nep*

    A new supervisor in a department related to mine came on board last week. She sent an email to me and a colleague. Multiple explanation points in a couple spots and a punctuation face at the end. Not a good first impression, to say the least. Ugh. How can people who are supposed to be professionals think this is OK for an introductory email? We’re not in middle school.

  201. Half-Caf Latte*

    I’m hopeful to have an offer for a new job soon.

    When is an appropriate time to try to negotiate benefits/pay – do I do it right there on that call? Or do I ask to review the offer and then call back and ask? The first feels presumptuous/aggressive, the second feels- unprepared/like I was disappointed.

    CurrentJob is in the process of merging with NewOrg. We’ve been told that post-merger, we will be able to transfer to positions in NewOrg and keep our seniority. At CurrentJob, that impacts amount of PTO, etc. I don’t know what it means at NewOrg, but assuming it carries weight, I’d like to ask for seniority to be kept. Merger finalization is weeks away, not months, so I’d be pretty bummed to lose my seniority over a month or two.

    1. Bea*

      It should be after you look at the job offer, so it doesn’t make you look unprepared since you reasonably need to to review it. You shouldn’t feel like you have to shoot from the hip, nobody should think poorly about you needing to digest the offer before negotiating with them. Most people are going to know you have a lot of things to consider, so you should say “Thank you for the opportunity, I am going to look over this offer and will be back in touch.” you should tell them when you expect to talk to them again, so you would want to put a time limit on your digestion period. Perhaps “Can we speak again about this tomorrow afternoon?” or whatever you feel comfortable with.

  202. Stressed and Confused*

    I need advice on seeking employment, while still employed. Trying to get out of a toxic situation, my hours are getting out of hand and I learned the hard way that telling these people “I physically can’t do that.” isn’t met with understanding and assistance, it’s turned into a total mess overnight and I’m ready to save myself.

    I know better than to ever tell an interviewer anything negative about my current situation and I’m also in a place where I don’t want anyone to contact these people, they’ll lose their shit when I leave because they depend on me for everything. They broke the only rule I’ve ever had while dealing with employers throughout my career, my rule is “don’t yell at me” and now I have another one to add to it, don’t call me a liar. There are ways to chastise someone without either one of those things. I’m not wrong thinking I deserve better than that from employers.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You are absolutely right, you deserve better than this.
      I would not do the OT myself. I told them I work like I am three people when I am here. I need my time away. I will not be here for OT.

      Then I braced myself for the predictable fall out.
      I weighed it out. On one hand I had exhaustion, depression, brokenness if I did the OT. On the other hand, I had a bunch of people yelling at me for not doing the OT. I decided that eventually they would exhaust themselves and quit yelling at me. So I opted for this choice. They stopped yelling at me after a bit. No OT and the work still got done at record setting levels.

  203. Ramona Flowers*

    Someone tried to recruit me – an old freelance client wanted to introduce me to a hiring manager who knows my organisation well and would have been keen. I said no, as it wasn’t the right fit for me at all and I’m not looking to move, but I’m stoked that this happened given I changed fields last year and still feel new. It’s done wonders for my imposter syndrome anyway.

  204. Anon For This*

    How do you report discrimmination? The incident happened a year ago, but I’m still upset about it.

    I was offered a volunteer job that I was really excited about. My masters degree and two decades of work experience would have been clearly beneficial to the organization. I wasn’t just doing it out of pure altruism; it was also to build up my resume after a health-related absence from work. I spoke with the director by email and by phone. She seemed happy about it and invited me to a board meeting. I moved across the country, which was expensive.

    Shortly before the board meeting, I stopped by and introduced myself during an event that they were having. I wasn’t wearing anything remarkable or unprofessional. When the director saw what I looked like, she instantly changed her mind about having me involved. Later, others in the org who I had spoken to tried to “sneak me in” by asking for my help with a project. I agreed, but they lied to a lot of pretty high profile people about my age and qualifications, and I was confronted by the director. She made some bizarre comments about my natural physical features in an aggressive tone.

    A year has past and I’ve seen the impact this has had on my career and reputation. It seems trite, but in a small community, someone who knows a lot of people can do a lot of damage. I am moving on, obviously, but I would like to report all of this somehow. Where is the right place to start?

    1. Lalaroo*

      First you need to identify the basis on which you believe you were discriminated against – is it your gender, your race, your age, your gender presentation, your personal appearance, a disability, etc? Then, you need to find out if that basis is a protected class in the area the organization is based. For instance, Washington, DC prohibits discrimination based on personal appearance, but not many places do.

      Here’s a short run-down of the federally-protected classes:
      – Race, sex, color, national origin, and religion are protected under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act
      – Disability is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act
      – Age (ie, you are over 40) is protected under the Age Discrimination in Employment Act

      All of these laws are enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and you can file a complaint with them (eeoc.gov). You need to file a complaint within 180 calendar days of the most recent instance of discrimination in most cases, so you may be too late.

      The state the organization is located in probably also has state laws prohibiting discrimination, which may cover more protected classes, and many states also have state agencies that investigate discrimination complaints. I would google the state name and “human rights commission,” “civil rights act,” or “human rights act” to get started looking for that information.

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