how can I get a coworker to take computer classes, new desks don’t work with skirts, and more

by Alison Green on January 11, 2018

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. How can I get a coworker to take computer classes?

My company recently hired a new employee, “Jane.” She’s not my subordinate, but I’ve helped train her, which makes this whole situation awkward. Jane is basically computer illiterate. At first I just thought she wasn’t used to Microsoft Office products, but the more I work with her the more I’m certain Jane’s only used a computer for typing and maybe tallying a spreadsheet. I’ve had to teach her very basic functions like how to create a new tab in a spreadsheet, how to accept a meeting invitation in Outlook, or even CTRL+C. She doesn’t seem familiar with any computer program. For instance she doesn’t seem familiar with basic icons, like the Save button or even Close — she uses File->Close to exit most programs. This makes tutoring a bit of a challenge as I’m never sure what terminology I can use.

I will say she is trying really hard and learning. But the way Jane’s going about it is a problem: she’s just asking for help doing the task in front of her, instead of trying to learn how to work a whole system. There’s no way she can learn everything she needs to learn to keep up with her workload like that.

Virtually every time I walk by her desk she looks completely overwhelmed, and if I don’t stop to talk, she sighs and announces she’s totally lost or stuck or something. She dropping by my office multiple times a day to ask for help. I’m happy to help, but this is taking up way more time than it needs to. It seems whenever she has a questions she wants someone to walk her through it instead of first trying to find an answer herself.

Multiple times I’ve suggested she look up online tutorials and she says she doesn’t know how to dig through that stuff or doesn’t have the time. Or I’ve pointed her towards free computer courses, and again she cites not having time. I really think her taking a day or two to take the courses would solve a lot of problems.

How can I get Jane to take them without overstepping my bounds? She’s trying so hard and I want her to succeed and I’m worried going over her head will get her in trouble. And like I said, my suggestions are not being taken. I also know she’s really embarrassed about her struggle to get a grasp on things, and I’m worried if I tell her I can’t help her anymore she just won’t ask and things will pile up.

The good news here is that there’s someone whose job it is to deal with this and who can do it without having to worry about overstepping any bounds: her manager! I know you said that you don’t want to get her in trouble, but (a) she is far more likely to get in trouble if this continues because it’s going to impact her work, and (b) this isn’t really about being in trouble or not; it’s about flagging a serious skills deficit and letting her manager know that she needs training. As someone helping to train her, you very much have standing to say to her boss, “Hey, I’ve realized that Jane is lacking basic computer skills and that’s standing in the way of her being able to do her job efficiently. Can you work with her to get her some fundamental computer skills training?” In fact, you’d actually be being negligent if you didn’t share what you’ve observed with her boss — this is the kind of highly relevant info that needs to be shared when you’re training someone.

I think, too, you’re falling into a bit of mission drift on your work here. Your job isn’t to find a way to help Jane succeed at all costs, even when it takes you well beyond the scope of what you were asked to train her on. It’s to do the training you were asked to do, and to loop in her manager if there are obstacles to that.

All that said … you could certainly try a direct conversation with Jane too. You could say, “I think we’re at the point where you need to shore up your basic computing skills before we can go any further. Can you plan to take the courses I pointed you toward, and then we can reconvene after that? I’m going to talk to (manager) about working with you to find time to do that, since I think think it’s really essential.”

2. Our new desks don’t work if you’re wearing a skirt

We have just moved offices and got a set of new and unsuitable desks. The new desks do not have modesty boards underneath. We are a largely female office and many of the staff wear skirts. If you are using a floor plug, you can see straight under many desks and into the groin area of the staff, and you can also see under certain desks when walking normally through the office. Our dress code is smart/casual.

The manager is not taking this seriously as a genuine concern of his staff (we also receive a lot of visitors to the office). Apparently the only solution is to buy completely new desks (the cable tidies stop boards from being attached) to the existing desks. Do we have any grounds for complaint or is this just something we have to get used to?

Yes, you have grounds to complain! It’s absolutely reasonable for you all to say, “These desks aren’t suitable for us and we’re not comfortable using them. We need to switch them out for desks that don’t uncomfortably expose us.” Say it as a group — which will be harder to ignore — and take the approach of “of course it’s obvious that we can’t use these desks so what do we need to do to get new ones?”

3. Interviewer told me my interview was probably a waste of time

During my job hunt for the job I’m at now, I applied for a pretty wide range of positions within a pretty wide range of industries. The first interview I got was with an insurance company. Admittedly I was a bit under-qualified for the role, but I had decided to throw my hat in the ring anyway.

When I got to the office for the interview, I ended up having to wait probably around 45 minutes because the man interviewing me was running late. Once the interview started, he told me that when the interview was scheduled I had been the most qualified candidate, but since then more qualified candidates had come in so this interview was basically a waste of time and they almost certainly weren’t going to hire me (I’ve forgotten exactly how he phrased it, but it was something along those lines). He did the interview anyway, but this really threw me off. It was honestly kind of humiliating and demoralizing. I had a tough time answering questions and walking him through some examples of my work I had brought along because of how distracted and upset I was. I did my best not to let it show, but I’m almost positive it did. Once the interview was over and I got back to my car, I started crying. With this being my first “real person” job interview I had no idea what to expect, but I was pretty sure this was not what an interview was supposed to be like.

Is this a normal thing to happen in an interview, or is this just my naivete showing? I only had two more interviews before I got the job with the company I’m at and neither of these interviews were anything like this, but a sample size of three is not much to go on. In a way I’m thankful this interview experience was so terrible, because I wouldn’t have ended up where I am now, but I’m interested in your perspective on this one.

Nah, he was just a jerk. Sometimes when jerks get the very minor power afforded by being the interviewer, they sometimes become really flagrantly jerky, and it sounds like that’s what happened here.

The good thing about this type of interview is that you get to find out the person is a jerk early on enough that you can decide not to work for them. It’s much worse to find out after you’re working there.

4. I’m supposed to give input on a candidate — but now I think I might want to apply for the job too

I was asked to have lunch with the candidate for a job that I hadn’t considered applying for in my organization and to give my feedback on the candidate to the search committee. In the process of giving the feedback to a member of the committee, I realized what the search committee wanted in a candidate and that I was qualified. I have since decided that I want the job if the search fails. I subsequently verified my qualifications with a former supervisor who knows of the situation and she also thinks I am qualified. The search committee is undecided about the candidate; the head of the search committee wants to talk to me about my impressions. I want to a) be honest and give honest feedback but admit that I’m now biased and b) put myself forward as a candidate. Advice?

Be up-front! Before you give any input on the candidate, say something like this: “I want to be transparent that in the process of talking with the search committee about what to look for in a candidate, I’ve realized that I’m interested in the position myself. I’d be interested in throwing my own hat in the ring, either now or down the road if the process doesn’t produce a candidate from the current pool. I’m going to try to be as unbiased as possible in my feedback about Jane, but I want you to have that caveat in case my feedback shouldn’t be considered at all.”

And then, assuming they do still want your feedback about the candidate, make sure you’re being as objective as possible. Give the feedback you’d give about her if you weren’t interested in the job at all. That’s an ethical obligation, of course, but it’s also going to help your own credibility if it’s clear that you’re not letting your own potential interest in the job bias your feedback.

5. Passing on positive feedback to a customer service agent’s manager

Recently I have spent a lot of time on the phone talking with various customer service agents due to an upcoming relocation (cable, internet, moving companies, insurance, utilities, etc.). I have a lot of respect for customer service representatives because I know they must deal with a lot of frustrated customers all day long, and I try to always be friendly and patient.

During my past few calls, if I get a representative who really does a thorough job, is friendly and engaging, and makes my experience a great one, I have asked to speak with their manager so I could pass on my positive feedback about the interaction. I figure this is one little thing I can do to express appreciation for someone doing a really challenging job and helping me solve an issue with a great attitude. I’ve felt really good about passing on positive feedback and plan to continue this process in the future. (And for the record, I am not interested in speaking with a manager about a not-so-good interaction – this is all about paying some good vibes forward.)

However, I want to ask, is this feedback practice helpful for the employee and for the manager? The times I’ve done this, the reps have seemed pleased and happy to transfer me to their managers, so I assume that it is. But I want to be sure this isn’t a misguided attempt at doing a good thing and causes some unforeseen difficulty for the people on the other side (as I have no experience in how call centers work and how their employee evaluations are handled). For example, they have to put me on hold, summon the manager, and take extra time to deal with me. And, if this is a good practice to continue, do you have recommendations about what kind of specific feedback would be helpful for managers to hear about the employee’s work during my brief conversation with the manager? Or key phrases I could use that would really make a difference for them to hear? The first one, I kind of babbled about having a great interaction and the employee being helpful, but am not sure I provided anything concrete that would actually be useful.

Yes, please continue to do that! It’s a lovely thing to do for people in a job where they’re often on the receiving end of anger and frustration. In some jobs, it can make a real difference in the types of evaluations people get, and if nothing else, it can really brighten people’s day.

As for what to say, just explain what you appreciated about the rep you talked to — “she was so pleasant and efficient, and she made what could have been a frustrating transaction a pleasure to resolve,” or “I called in with a really thorny issue and she was incredibly patient and knowledgeable in helping me get it sorted out,” or “I was pretty frustrated when I called, and she was so kind and good at her job that I felt I need to tell you — you have a real treasure in her” or whatever else feels true to you. You don’t need to deliver a lengthy treatise — just a sentence or two is fine.

You may also like:
{ 1,072 comments }

{ 1,072 comments… read them below }

  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m putting this up here so that hopefully people will see it before commenting — although I’m posting it at 12:30 p.m. EST, so I realize the horse is out of the barn on this one:

    Please do not tell letter writer #2 that she and her coworkers should just sit more “modestly,” or with her ankles crossed all day. It’s not okay for women to have to police the positioning of their bodies more rigidly than men do (not to mention having to sit in an uncomfortable position for hours on end).

    Also, if you are a person who wears skirts and is not bothered by not having a privacy panel at the front of your desk, that is good for you! But it does not negate the fact that the letter writer (and apparently her coworkers) are bothered by it. It can be tempting to think everyone is like you, but indeed everyone is not.

      3. Free Meerkats*

        I complain that I have to wear pants and not a kilt. But that’s because I sometimes work int he right of way, and safety requires long pants.

        Put me at one of those desks in a kilt, and I guarantee they will be changed, posthaste!

      4. Safetykats*

        Given that the workplace is sufficient formal for women to be in skirts, I doubt the men are wearing shorts. The OP said the office dress code was smart/casual. That generally would not include shorts for men.

    2. Lady Phoenix*

      Can you also add to stop shaning women for wearing skirts? Cause we have been getting comments shaming women for wearing akirts too.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agh, I haven’t read everything so didn’t see that. But yes, it’s not okay here to shame people for wearing skirts or imply they need to stop wearing perfectly acceptable business clothing in order to solve this.

        1. Lady Phoenix*

          Yeah. Apparently pencil skirts are either slut wear to some commenters… or all skirts are coded women so we have to dress up like men because being a woman is BAD and apparently men are the default.

          1. Noah*

            It seems like pencil skirts are long enough that you wouldn’t have this problem, but I’m a guy so I defer to the woman here if that is not true. It’s also not really relevant — obviously there are skirts long enough to solve this problem, but as long as the dress code allows skirts that aren’t long enough to solve this problem, they need protect the women from inappropriate viewing — just like you wouldn’t have clear floors.

          2. Database Developer Dude*

            I have a philosophical objection to the word ‘slut’ too. I feel like that’s shaming a woman for enjoying her sexuality, when if I or another man did that, we’d be called ‘stud’. It’s sexist. Not to mention, someone’s sexuality is not relevant to the workplace in the first place. I say as a man, if you can’t respect a woman because she has three boyfriends she sees off duty and away from the workplace, or because she prefers to have one-night stands, or because she sleeps with someone on the first date, that is YOUR problem, not hers. (That’s the generic ‘you’. Not directing this to anyone in particular)

  2. Jenny Next*

    OP #3, I totally agree that this interviewer was a jerk and that the behavior isn’t normal. But there are two sub-categories of interviewer jerkiness that are worth being aware of. Please use the search engine of your choice to look up the terms “stress interview” (in which the applicant is treated poorly just to see how they will respond) and “negging” (in which applicants and employees are constantly told how inferior they are in order to break their morale and keep them “in their place” ).

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Honestly, I think more common than either of those are interviewers who are just jerks. They don’t realize that good candidates will be assessing them right back, they’ve let power go to their heads, they’re inconsiderate, etc. Deliberate stress interviews do happen, but they’re pretty uncommon.

        1. JM in England*

          I think that stress interviews are a complete waste of time too as a tool for evaluating candidates. Interview stress and on-the-job stress are completely different animals and people will react differently to them.

      2. Mookie*

        Also, I don’t care about their motivations. Being mean to me as a strategy automatically makes them unqualified to hire and manage me. It could definitely be psychologically and emotionally healthy for the LW to view these interviewers as being intentionally rude for a specific purpose — so, it’s not personal — but, for people like me, that would actually be more demoralizing, that you’re just another victim of some terrible fad involving ritual humiliation.

        If someone is going to insult me, I want that insult to be personalized, damnit.

        1. Sara without an H*

          “If someone is going to insult me, I want that insult to be personalized, damnit.”

          Love it, Mookie.

        3. Rachel01*

          3. Interviewer told me my interview was probably a waste of time.
          You could have walked out in this situation. I have done it when I had an interview, went in and it was a group interview for a sales positon. They mislead all of what it was, and had a captive audience. If I were in your shoes, I would have walked right out, gone home, and called their HR to tell them what took place.

          I had one interview years ago that the job description was for an executive assistant and went I came in for the interview it was clear that they wanted a web designer & technical writer combined in one. They wanted someone that had those capabilities; it was not listed on the job posting / description. I suspect that this was a work around HR & the budget office. They did not have the funds to pay for the position they wanted and/or couldn’t get the authorization to bring in a technical writer / web developer so they advertised it the only way they could get it approved. This was when web developing was first starting, it wasn’t a standard skill.

          1. Rachel01*

            Forgot to mention. I clearly stated the VP interviewing me that what the job posting was for and the description of the duties didn’t match. Than I called Human Resources. But I had a lot of goodwill built up at the university than, I had been there for 10 years.

      3. Jenny Next*

        Oh, sure, I agree that garden-variety jerkiness is the most likely explanation. But if interviewees are aware that some people actually do this for a purpose other than to throw their weight around (or because they are socially inept), then they are better prepared to see it for what it is and either counter it or move on.

    2. Kaittastic*

      Interviewer: You’re under
      qualified for this position and this is a waste of time.

      Me: Thanks for your honesty! Have a great day and good luck with your other interviews!! (leaves with big )

      Seriously I couldn’t stand someone wasting my time in such a rude way.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I did that once, and got a surprised response of “But aren’t you going to stay for the rest of the interview?”

          1. Not Australian*

            Me too. I got up, thanked the guy, said “I think we’re just wasting each other’s time,” and walked out without looking back.

          2. Mookie*

            I had one complain that they were going to get in trouble if I left so soon. I don’t care. If management are the ones telling you to behave this way, you need to leave, too.

            2. Jadelyn*

              Seriously? You waste my time, you tell me to my face that you are wasting my time with this interview, and you expect me to give a crap if you get in trouble if I don’t stay for the whole interview? That sounds like a you problem, bud.

          3. Mona Lisa*

            Similar. I had an audition for a church job, and the guy who was auditioning me was very late. When he finally arrived, he mixed up my voice type when I had indicated I was actually another. He said they couldn’t take me for that, but he could hear me for a sub list. He gave me a piece to sightread, which was going well, and halfway through, he stopped playing, turned to me and said, “This isn’t going to work.”

            “I don’t think it will either, but thank you for your time,” I replied since I’d already decided I didn’t want to work for this guy. I offered up a friendly handshake to show there were no hard feelings.

            He stared at my outstretched hand and then pointed, saying, “The door’s over there.”

            I don’t think I’ve ever met such a rude interviewer in my life!

            1. Tiny Soprano*

              Church choir conductors are another group of people who often let the minor power they wield go completely to their heads…

              That guy though! Wow! That’s a quadruple forte, all stops out level of jerkiness right there!

        2. Cedrus Libani*

          That would be my response NOW, but fresh out of college? I’d have responded just as the letter writer did. (Like any skill, self-respect takes practice…)

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Exactly. OP said this was her first real job interview (I imagine she means a professional job interview), so she wouldn’t yet have the confidence to do this, especially if she needed a job ASAP. But this is good advice for her going forward.

            1. Em*

              OP #3 here, yeah, this was my first professional job interview. I like to think that should this happen again, I’ll be able to just walk out. Thanks everyone for your comments! Glad to hear that I wasn’t off base thinking this guy was a jerk.

              1. Sara without an H*

                OP#3, going forward, remember, you’re interviewing them at the same time they’re interviewing you. When I was first starting out, I accepted a position in what turned out to be a Toxic Waste Dump of an organization. Why? I was concentrating so hard on getting them to hire me that I ignored the big red flags waving all over the place.

                1. Jam Today*

                  Now that I’m old and cynical and don’t suffer a-holes lightly, I do a lot more work to interview the company than I did when I was young and just really needed the paycheck (nothing like the impending non-payment of rent to motivate you to take a really crappy job…) I’ve halted interview processes after being treated rudely by two people in a row from the same company (including one who told me I’d misspelled my own name on my resume — its a common name, a less-common-but-definitely-standard spelling), and not gotten at least one job because the interviewers were so taken aback by my asking them some hard questions about their organizations (such as: “how many women are in executive leadership?”) Good riddance to them. If someone treated me like this during an interview I’d walk out.

                  Good luck to the OP, you’ll get the confidence and security you need to stand up for yourself, it comes with time and experience (and a bank account with a little buffer in it for lean times). Sometimes we have to grit our teeth and live with being treated badly just so we can get some stability that will allow us to make moves that improve our situation. Don’t get bogged down in “I would have, she should have” stuff. You do what you need to do, time and age will take care of the rest.

                2. many bells down*

                  Oh yeah, there was a job I *really* wanted a few years ago, but the red flags were waving from day one; disorganized, forgetful (they forgot to give me the actual location for the interview until the morning of, and only after I’d sent two emails asking for it). I still really wanted the job, though, so I kept telling myself it would work out because the job itself offered a lot of autonomy.
                  They ended up offering me a trial period and then ghosted me. Never heard from them again, although I do still occasionally get emails asking how I liked their company’s services.

              2. Detective Amy Santiago*

                You are definitely not off base! And now you know that if this ever happens again, you do not have to just go along with it.

                Good luck with your job search!

              3. the.kat*

                Early in my job hunt, I ran into an interviewer who it felt like was determined to make me cry. I wish, wish, wish I’d have had the guts to get up and leave, but I didn’t. I just sat there and took it. Spoiler alert, I did not get the job.

                I feel for you OP and it made me a better interviewer in the long run because I told myself that I never have to let someone treat me like that again. Good luck!

              4. Elizabeth West*

                Not off base at all. Especially if the jerk interviewer would be your boss, consider what it would be like to work for him/her. It’s okay to do this as long as you’re polite and you know you don’t want the job.

                I once ended an interview for an admin job. The pay was okay and the interviewer was nice, but they didn’t offer insurance, and that was a deal breaker for me.

          2. anna green*

            (Like any skill, self-respect takes practice…)

            I LOVE this sentence! I’m totally stealing this as a reminder for myself.

    3. Gen*

      Yeah I’ve never seen desks with modesty boards, except for receptionists, but then I’ve never worked anywhere that the desks weren’t facing each other or anyone would be permitted to wear a skirt so short that you could see up it. Putting the desks back-to-back would at least double the depth of the desk so no one can see under it from standing rather than buying expensive new equipment to accommodate wardrobe choices. If the in-floor plug sockets are in constant daily use then why not get extension cords the raise them to desk height or something

      1. Mookie*

        anyone would be permitted to wear a skirt so short that you could see up it.

        That’s not, generally, how or why this happens when somebody sits down, unless you’re suggesting that calf- and ankle-length skirts and dresses are the only ones suitable for a office-casual environment like the LW’s.

        1. Lady Phoenix*

          Apparently Gen has mever heard of a pencil skirt—a popular knee-length skirt used for businesses

        2. Turkletina*

          Further, the OP is concerned about people leaning down to use floor plugs. From that position, I can imagine that you might be able to see up something like an A-line skirt that falls below the knees.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Unless you have worked exclusively with the Amish, I’m betting you have worked in places where women wear knee length skirts to work.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Don’t see a lot of Amish women working with at desks/with computers, anyway. Some old order Mennonites perhaps. ;)

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah I’ve never seen desks with modesty boards, except for receptionists

        Really? Every desk in my building has them.

        1. Antilles*

          Same here. Every single desk in my building does too. And I work in construction – an industry that’s 90% male and where it’s completely impractical/unsafe to wear anything except full length pants.

          1. Katelyn*

            The “modesty panel” can actually be a structural element of the desk. Not for support, but to help brace and prevent side-to-side shifting, particularly if unexpectedly heavy objects are moved onto/off-of the desk (e.g. steel I-beam, bundle of rebar, heavy power tools). It’s the same reason saw-horses have that inverted V shape, it takes the weight and provides stability from side-to-side movement.

            So pretty much I’m saying that these tables are pretty cheap and not meant to hold up in the longer-term anyways…

            1. Chapeau*

              “So pretty much I’m saying that these tables are pretty cheap and not meant to hold up in the longer-term anyways…”

              This.

              Granted, I don’t live in the US, but here where I live all the desks at school even have that panel

        2. Not a Morning Person*

          Yes, I’ve never worked in a place that had a desk you could see under from the front. Every one had a panel that ran almost to the floor. 6 different industries, four different states, and at all client and customer offices, too, I never saw a desk that didn’t have the panel. I have seen them on TV, just never IRL.

      4. Justme, The OG*

        I’ve never had a desk that didn’t have a modesty panel. My desk is against the wall and still has the panel.

        1. TychaBrahe*

          I don’t think I’ve seen a modesty panel in 20 years. My current desk is a table. My desk before that was a table. Before that I had a cubicle. Maybe, back in 94, when I was working in an open plan office.

          But also, I ride the bus to work. So I’d be sitting in the exact same position without even a desktop to hide my legs. That’s why my skirts go to mid-calf.

          https://www.jcpenney.com/p/white-mark-flare-flared-skirt/ppr5007267130?pTmplType=regular&rrec=true&rrplacementtype=product1_rr

          1. Natalie*

            The bus is not an adequate comparison, IMO – they generally have a bunch of seats in a row so there is a seat back less then a foot away. Unless someone is lying on the floor of the bus under the seats, they’re not actually in a position to see up a skirt while you’re sitting down.

            2. Nita*

              The last thing I’d want to worry about on a bus is whether anyone can see up my skirt. Even more so on a subway train – 90% of the seats face the aisle. Much simpler to just go with a skirt that doesn’t require one to pick a specific seat. Of course, that was learned the hard way with some fails…

              Not that long skirts are fail-proof, once I stepped on the hem of my favorite maxi on the way to work. Then had to walk around all day hoping it will look like the gash in the fabric is a fashion statement…

        3. Safetykats*

          At most of the office I’ve worked at, desks have modesty panels. The exception is standing or adjustable height desks – I don’t think it’s practical to put a modesty panel on a desk that adjusts from sitting to standing height (although I could be sting about that). People who have adjustable height desks have them facing the wall of a cubicle or office, so that there is no view angle from the front of the desk. Maybe the OP has these type of desks? They aren’t cheap, by the way, so I can see how there might be frustration around replacing them. However, placing them in open-plan seating was a really big mistake.

      5. vjt*

        Literally every desk I’ve ever sat at since leaving school has had some sort of design element that turns it from a ‘table’ into a ‘desk’ and prevents a woman wearing a knee-length skirt from having to keep her knees crossed at all times. And it doesn’t matter if the desks are back-to-back (I think you probably mean front-to-front?) because then it’s your deskmate who’s getting an eyeful when she accesses the in-floor plug. Which by the way no woman wearing a skirt as short as you’re imagining would be able to do without flashing the room.

      6. Kathleen_A*

        You probably have, though. It’s one of those things that often goes unnoticed until…well, until you need one and it isn’t there. If you Google “office desk,” you’ll see that many (and probably most) of those pictured do have that panel.

        1. Tiny Soprano*

          I would certainly have a lot of shocked people in my office if their panels disappeared. Not so much from a modesty perspective (they spend a lot of time in the field so most of them just wear their field gear around the office), but because of the lack of under-desk-cave-storage-area. Where else are they meant to stash their soil samples?

      7. Hildegard Vonbingen*

        You don’t have to be wearing a miniskirt for people to see up your skirt or dress.

        If the OP can’t get a desk with a modesty board, one thing she could do is get a tension rod, like the kind you use to hang up a shower curtain, and a fairly short curtain, then rig it up where the board should be. It would look like some old-fashioned kitchens I’ve seen. Not the most professional look, but then neither is having your private areas visible.

        Most places I’ve worked have had modesty boards on the desks. Until I read this, I didn’t know that’s what they were called, actually. But the desks I’ve seen had them. I assumed that was standard-issue.

        1. Elsewhere*

          Or some curtains, with a nice valance (or pelmet, if you’re a Brit), some sheers, maybe some cute tie-backs. Everyone could be as creative as they wish.

          Wouldn’t you love to see the face of the manager who didn’t think privacy was a “thing” when confronted with a large number of curtained deskse? I’m a guy, but would be happy to do a nice Austrian swag in solidarity.

          3. Personal Best In Consecutive Days Lived*

            This was my thought as well. You could also tape paper across (if you have access to rolls of paper) or nail a piece of plywood to the desk if you want something more urilitarian.

        2. (another) b*

          Idk I just don’t get the big deal. My last job had desks like that and I wore skirts, and just sitting with my legs closed was fine. I wasn’t worried about anyone looking up my skirt, and it would be pretty obvious if they were doing so. If it’s a big issue maybe try to hang something off the desk to cover it.

          1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

            Whether I wear skirts (of any length) or pants, I sit exactly the same way, which is 1. Not modest or “ladylike” in any way 2. Also actually a comfortable way to sit.
            And women shouldn’t have to police or modify the way they sit (or the things they wear) because some yay-hoo cheaped out on buying office equipment.

        3. JessaB*

          This was my idea, hang a curtain or a table cloth or even just a nice piece of fabric and a couple of thumb tacks.

          1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

            I would totally go the taped or tacked up paper/fabric route too. Something that’s going to look janky even if it’s done neatly. If they don’t like how it looks, they can get proper desks for everyone.

      9. Rachel01*

        2. Our new desks don’t work if you’re wearing a skirt
        A photo showing what the issue is might be required. To be honest, it is almost an HR issue. I will state that the female employees should not be wearing skirts that ride up so much that you can see everything. I’m assuming that isn’t an issue, but had to state it. I would not want someone to have a view of my groin, with my belly scrunched up in a pair of pants or skirt. Is your management male or female? It could be that someone doesn’t want to admit that they purchased something that isn’t working our & must be returned. It needs to be addressed immediately, depending on the contract & where purchased they could delay too long to do an exchange. They may have to pay for the pick up and delivery.

        1. many bells down*

          I don’t own a single skirt that is shorter than knee-length. I have a personal aversion to short skirts. But when you sit down, the skirt is no longer hanging straight, it’s pulled up higher. Thus my knee-length skirts would now expose my knees, and therefore unless I keep my legs constantly clamped together, you could see up it. Crossing one’s legs can even cause a perfectly “modest” skirt to ride up even higher, exposing the back of the thigh or more.

        2. JB (not in Houston)*

          You actually didn’t have to state it because there’s absolutely nothing in the letter to suggest that the OP doesn’t understand how to dress professionally.

      10. OP2*

        My skirts are knee length but when sat down and shufling about, things move! The desks are shallower than we had previously which is also contributing to the lack of privacy

        1. Luna*

          Exactly, I really don’t get why some people are pretending that they don’t know this happens (to everyone, no matter how tightly they try to clench their knees!) I hope you aren’t disheartened by all these inappropriate comments, most people understand why this is an issue.

          1. Tiny Soprano*

            And please ignore those who think it’s reasonable to expect everyone to sit with their knees tight together all the time all because that’s what they do. My constantly-shifting, frequently-cross-legged-on-top-of-the-chair self is jealous of their lack of back issues.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      A good stress interview isn’t just “treat this person like garbage for no reason.” Done right, they should be very specifically aimed at a very specific kind of stressful situation that will be common on the job. IIRC someone on here mentioned a while back about a floor trader interview where they asked candidates to stand on their chairs and yell as loudly as they could. That’s a stress interview request, to select for people who are comfortable being very loud and attention-grabbing.

      1. LBK*

        I would think in a good stress interview, the candidate would be made aware beforehand that’s that what was going on – just like in a stressful work situation where they’d be “consenting” to being there and know what they were getting into. Presumably if you’re going into the kind of field where a stress interview might be relevant, it’s not a surprise.

          1. Not a Morning Person*

            And done right it’s not necessarily about breaking social norms. One of my former managers had worked at the State Department and conducted interviews for ambassadors and staff. One of the stress interview tactics was to simply ask people to do calculations in their head and provide the answers quickly and the questions came faster than you could respond to. He said it was used to determine whether people got flustered under pressure or how they responded to particular kinds of pressure. That was not the only tactic and it was interesting to learn.

            1. LBK*

              Yeah, I don’t think it’s necessarily about warning them about breaking social norms so much as doing role-playing that might be non-standard for most interviews. But you intro them into that role playing, you don’t just suddenly start acting like a big jerk.

            2. Liz2*

              Bleh had one interview do that to me and I hated it- because in real world situations I EXPECT things to go wonky and can adjust. In an interview, why would that ever happen? Plus, I suck at math calculations in my head. If I had been asked relevant questions about my job I’d have had no problems with rapid fire, and in real world situations have no problems saying “I’ll need to check with Joe and Sam and get that confirmed right now.”

            3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              I honestly think that’s a great one. Time pressure can either turn people into diamonds or shatter them entirely.

    5. cutie honey*

      i don’t really get the point of this comment? just because someone is being a jerk *for a reason* doesn’t really change my perception of their jerkiness or my desire to work for them?

      1. Jenny Next*

        The point is that OP #3 can shift her emotional response when this happens. She felt humiliated and demoralized, and was so upset that she cried. I’ve been there!

        If she can shift her brain to “Some people are deliberately trying to upset you and throw you off,” then she can summon a healthier response such as anger at the interviewer for being a jerk, or, better yet, cool amusement that he thinks that being a jerk gives him some kind of upper hand.

  3. Huh*

    I wear a suit with a skirt every day and I have always worked in places with an openish office (not my own private one but a big room with multiple colleagues) where the desks were just a top and four legs and no front or modesty panel. I’ve worked for over a decade at multiple Fortune 500 companies and it has always been this way for any place I have worked or seen in interviews I just make sure my skirts are long enough (for me this is to just about my knee and I am 5’11 so finding the right kind of skirts takes some work) and wearing either dark colored tights, or if I wear pantyhose than I wear dark thigh length shorts/shapewear underneath. I also make sure I keep my ankles together/crossed when I sit. It has literally never been an issue for me and I have never heard any of the women I work with or know (most of whom wear skirts or dresses) say anything about this. If this was mentioned at my current place you would be given some major side eye if you expected the company to purchase a new, special desk for you. Both of my parents worked in offices when I was a kid and the desks in their offices were the same (a law firm and a university). I had no idea this was even a thing.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It’s kind of uncomfortable to know you can’t relax or get lost in thought (or in the zone) at work if your desk + default positions could result in an ongoing upskirt visual situation.

        1. kittymommy*

          Yes! This has not been an issue for me personally because I’ve never worked in an office where the desk is open like that, but if it was I would have problems. Due to back issues I I need to constantly readjust the way in sitting, constantly staying with my ankles crossed, legs flat together, etc. just isn’t feasible for me and my skirts do ride up.

          1. Pollygrammer*

            I’m in the same boat! I have to change positions every 10 or so minutes. I wouldn’t want people to constantly see me in my various chair-pretzels even if I was wearing pants, because it just looks silly.

            1. Specialk9*

              I recommend objecting to the desks, and (pragmatically) when management ignores you because the desks were expensive etc, a scarf.

              Ideally, pushpin or duct tape or staple or ziptie (or whatever) a wide scarf to the underside of your desk.

              Otherwise, drape a scarf over your lap. (I have to do this when in a sheath or pencil skirt because my proportions mean that a perfectly modest standing length goes way up my thigh when sitting.)

              It’s not awesome, but it’s workable and doesn’t expose your undies to coworkers.

              And sorry you’re dealing with this nonsense.

          2. Tiny Soprano*

            +1

            I’m surprised that so many people seem to think everyone is capable of sitting like June Dally Watkins all the time. The way I sit may not be the height of professionalism, but neither is me falling down on the way to the printer shouting some very nasty words because my back is cranky at me.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              +1

              It’s much easier for me to find skirts that fit rather than pants that fit. I own probably 3x as many skirts as I do pants of any kind, counting non-work appropriate ones.

              1. AMPG*

                I only wear skirts to work because it’s much more time-consuming and expensive to buy dress pants and have them altered to fit. I can buy two work skirts for the price of one pair of pants (including tailoring).

          2. Jessie the First (or second)*

            If that’s an issue, why not use the desks that the company *already had* that contained the appropriate panel, rather than buying all new desks and requiring the female part of the workforce to go outandbuy all new work clothes?

            Also, FWIW, some very conservative industries expect women to be in skirt suits. I used to clerk for a judge who required skirts and nylons from his female clerks and expected attorneys who argued in his court to be dressed that way as well. So “buy new clothes and don’t wear skirts” is not practical or even helpful advice.

          3. Justme, The OG*

            Because some people don’t like pants. It’s not your job to police what people wear. The easy solution is to use desks that are appropriate no matter what the worker is wearing on their bottom half.

            1. OP2*

              It also protects those who don’t wear skirts from the chance of accusations. Removes the opportunity for accusations without policing clothing which is already following the company guidelines

          4. Allison*

            Dude, pants suck. Or rather, the act of shopping for pants that fit well and flatter your body, and/or having to build the cost of tailoring into your budget when buying pants, is a pain in the neck. I like skirts because I’m into vintage styles, but I also opt for skirts and dresses because they’re just easier to shop for. My desk was open in the front, maybe I’d approach dressing for work a little differently, but it’s something I’d rather just not worry about.

            1. Justme, The OG*

              I wear pants fairly exclusively, and pants shopping does suck (I hate skirts more than anything, though). I had to stop going work pants shopping with my kid, because I would end up crying in the dressing room because nothing fit properly. I even found a swimsuit on the first try, but pants shopping is horrible.

            2. Cactus*

              So glad I’m not the only one who thinks this. I HATE shopping for pants. I especially hate the skinny pants fashion that’s been in style the last few years. Unless the temperature is 15 degrees or below (and sometimes even then), I’m wearing skirts.

          5. Jennifer*

            Because some of us have bodies that aren’t catered to by the clothing industry. If I can even find pants with an inseam long enough, that doesn’t guarantee the rest of them will actually fit me.

            1. Sarianna*

              And I have the opposite problem–most pants are designed for people significantly taller than I, so the wider/narrower parts fall in the wrong place on me, even if I were to hem the bottoms to be shorter.

              Pants shopping suuuuuuucks.

              1. Not a Morning Person*

                Agreed! And I have the opposite problem with longs. (Hopefully you can find at least some options in petites or short styles.) Too often the longs just add a few inches to the inseam and don’t account for a longer rise. Started wearing pants when I moved to the midwest. Too windy all the time and too cold in the winter for skirts and dresses here.

              2. many bells down*

                Right? “Oh, you take a size 10 pant? You must be six and a half feet tall, then.” I’ve bought two pairs of dress slacks recently that I had to hem up over SIX INCHES. And I’m not particularly short; I’m 5 foot 5! I have short legs, though, I guess.

                1. Allison*

                  Before I knew what short sizes were, I was trying on jeans at Old Navy (age 12 maybe), and realized the pants that were short enough were too narrow, and the pants that fit me around the hips were too long, and I broke down crying because I thought that meant my body was “wrong.”

                  My mom took me to Kohls where they had different lengths.

            2. ClownBaby*

              Preach!

              I am 6’2″ with a 37″ inseam. Most of the time when I wear pants it looks like I am ready for a flood.

              Plus my butt is flatter than Kansas and my hip to waist ratio is probably like 1. Pencil skirts do wonders in giving me some sort of curves. In pants, I look like Business Casual Slenderman…preparing for a flood.

              5. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                I’m 5’ 11”, but where I have trouble with pants are the *waists*. A “mom jeans” type high waist still hits me below the naval, anything lower ranges from LOL NOPE to literally obscene. And if I can’t cinch my pants in above my hipbones they won’t even stay up (not even tight leggings!)
                I want to take a time machine back to the 80s and stock up on enough high waisted skinny pants & jeans to last me the rest of my life!

          6. Pollygrammer*

            Um…among many other reasons, including the fact that women should be able to wear what they want as long as it’s office appropriate, LW and her cohorts probably already own skirts and had no reason to think they suddenly wouldn’t be viable options for work?

            1. OP2*

              I have plenty of work appropriate skirts, I can’t afford to buy a whole set of trousers, and I shouldn’t have to due to this I’ll thought through change of desk :-(

          7. Specialk9*

            “If that’s an issue, why not wear pants.”

            So the solution to a male exec making an accidentally sexist decision is to arbitrarily change the dress code without notice, for only the females? To save $100 on screwing a panel in place to show women that they are people too, and instead demand that each of the females identified workers has to spend hundreds of dollars redoing their wardrobes? Is that really your solution?

        3. Lora*

          Having to crawl under your desk to plug things in while wearing nice work clothes sucks regardless of type of work clothes, if you’re doing it more than once a year — but the day your $250 Theory pencil skirt tears at the seam while you were crawling under your desk to find an outlet *so you could present to a client* is the day you demand a power strip mounted to the top of your desk.

          It’ll take the facilities staff 5 minutes. It costs the company $10 at Staples. The manager giving you static on this is a jackass.

          1. AnonyMouish*

            I love this solution (and it’s a lot easier than getting all new desks) but I think the OP is saying some under-desks are visible even from a standing position in the office… which isn’t ideal.

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            The problem is not skirt-wearing people having to climb under their desks; the problem is anyone climbing under desks (which happens for a variety of reasons) having a view onto skirt-wearing people’s bodies.

            1. JessaB*

              Yes but this would be true with or without modesty panels. If someone is crawling under the desk, you stand up and move out of their way. Crawling under desks should not be an every day thing. If it is, there needs to be a work around because anyone crawling under desks is disrupting the work there. If things need to plug/unplug that often, someone above already said it, there needs to be a powerstrip on top of the desk or on the side leg or something. But anything that has to be accessed so often it’s a problem, means the desk isn’t the problem the location of the plug is.

              1. many bells down*

                No, I think it’s more like … James’ desk faces Sally’s desk. James has to crawl under HIS desk to plug something in, and suddenly realizes he’s looking right up Sally’s dress. With a modesty panel, James only sees plywood.

              2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                …. if they’re climbing under your desk, sure. But if there are dozens of desks with no cube walls or modesty panels, someone under any of the desks can see the bodies of everyone sitting at any desk.

                I’m baffled that this is controversial or confusing to people.

                1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                  I would hate this even if the only thing I ever wore was pants. Open back desks are pretty much just framing your groin area no matter what you are wearing.

        4. bookish*

          Yeah, this isn’t good. I couldn’t relax unless I was wearing an ankle/floor-length skirt, which tends not to look business appropriate, or pants. Otherwise I’d have to spend my whole business day stressing out that my legs were clenched tightly together and not only would that be physically uncomfortably but it would be diverting my mental energies from my work. Even if I was wearing opaque tights and a skirt that wasn’t, like, riding up to my thighs, I don’t need to worry about someone being able to see between my legs. This is so clearly an issue that affects the women in the office and is making them uncomfortable, and needs to be addressed.

          I don’t know if this would work with the office culture but I hope in the meantime OP can do something like put a thick tablecloth over her desk that covers the front of her desk from tabletop to floor.

          And I don’t love the input that OP should just get over it because other women have had to put up with sexism in the work place. We can all do better.

          1. TootsNYC*

            If I worked there, I’d be getting out the canvas, the hem-fusing tape, and some lattice, and making a cloth panel to attach to the underside of the desk (wrap the top around lattice strips to stiffen it, and attach those to the underside of the desk; maybe attach lattice to the bottom to stiffen the bottom and weight it down). You can cut holes in the fabric to accommodate the wiring hardware.

          2. Lady Phoenix*

            In the age of “#MeToo”, everyone should be striving to do better.

            Tell women to suck it up and focus on not looking like a “tramp” when they need to type spreadsheets is slut shaming and terrible.

            1. Specialk9*

              I’m assuming the comment using the word “tramp” was deleted because I can’t find it, and your comment endless-nested so I can’t see the original comment you’re replying to.

              1. Specialk9*

                Oh, nope, I found the comments below that didn’t use the exact word, but talked about how *their* mother taught them to sit like a lady in a skirt, and just keep your legs shut. Yeah, gross, and ironic to modesty shame women who are trying their best to be *more* modest.

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        I’m not sure why it’s a thing either. I wear skirts a lot and I just assume that people won’t want to look up my skirt at work. If someone chooses to look and chooses to be offended they can have at it.

        Regardless of skirts I actually would prefer modesty panels as a general rule, but it’s because I like to put things in my lap sometimes or I want to sit in half lotus in my desk chair sometimes which looks kind of unprofessional. I don’t think “open back desks are incompatible with skirts” would have occurred to me.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          What if they don’t want to look but can’t avoid seeing unless they walk around with their eyes averted? I for one would find that pretty stressful!

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            And assuming that people won’t want to look up your skirt is placing an awful lot of confidence in people. I’d like to think that nobody I work with would, but there are laws banning upskirt photos for a reason. It’s depressingly common for people to try to look up women’s skirts.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          I wear skirts a lot and I just assume that people won’t want to look up my skirt at work. If someone chooses to look and chooses to be offended they can have at it.

          That’s what you think the issue is? That the LW is concerned people who can see up her skirt will be offended?

          1. Elizabeth H.*

            Maybe it’s hard to phrase this to express what I meant? What I meant was that I don’t think that the mechanical or psychological burden of preventing others from being able to see up one’s skirt should be on the skirt wearer. Even if skirt wearer is sitting at an open desk or table rather than a desk with a front panel.

            1. Luna*

              That’s why there should be a panel, to take that burden off of the skirt wearer…otherwise there is no way to prevent it without the burden being on that person.

            2. Snark*

              But when there’s direct sight lines for people walking by or plugging in equipment to inadvertantly get an eyeful, it’s not like expecting others to display perfect avoidance is a realistic solution. It’s not like people are actively sneaking peeks. And if it’s possible someone might inadvertantly look up her skirt, through nobody’s fault and not particularly avoidable, I think it’s totally reasonable for her to expect a modesty panel.

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                Yes, this. I don’t think you quite understand the problem, @Elizabeth. It’s not that people are making an effort to look up her skirt, and she feels compelled to prevent that. It’s that she’s uncomfortably visible to anyone walking by. Are people supposed to avert their eyes?

                1. Snark*

                  I’m imagining those creepy blinder-bonnets they wear in Handmaid’s Tale. “Welcome to LlamaCo; here’s your bonnet.” “But why?”

        3. E. Null*

          “I wear skirts a lot and I just assume that people won’t want to look up my skirt at work. If someone chooses to look and chooses to be offended they can have at it.”

          That’s great for you, but not great for everyone- as proven by how many brave women have come forward to publicly speak about sexual harassment and misconduct in their work place, your assumption simply isn’t true for so many people. I hope you consider that most people find the idea of someone being able to look up their skirt horrifying, and not just something they can “have at” or deal with.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I do consider it! I think the letter writer’s concern is reasonable and I can understand being more focused on modesty such that you don’t like the idea of anyone being able to catch a glimpse up a skirt accidentally (or on purpose) – maybe a lot of people are more like this than I am. I just meant to suggest that perhaps there is a wider distribution of people that some might not find it a major concern, which could explain why the LW and her office mates might encounter difficulty making their concerns understood. It seems like I’m in a small, but existent minority here in terms of my comfort level. Personally, as long as I’m dressed within professional norms for my office, I’ll be comfortable. The letter writer and her office mates aren’t and that is reasonable too.

            1. Misc*

              It’s the difference between modesty and vulnerability. Modesty is a personal choice (even if culturally shaped), vulnerability is a stressful power dynamic imposed on someone.

              1. Specialk9*

                Oh. Yeah. That’s a really important distinction, and I’ve never heard it said that way before.

            2. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

              “I just meant to suggest that perhaps there is a wider distribution of people that some might not find it a major concern, which could explain why the LW and her office mates might encounter difficulty making their concerns understood.”

              Yep! They are called “men”, and since they don’t wear skirts, the ones in this office DGAF about the people who DO wear skirts.

              That’s the gist of the whole issue right there.

              And so what if some women aren’t bothered by it? Some ARE, and that’s enough reason for her higher ups to fix this.

        4. LBK*

          I wear skirts a lot and I just assume that people won’t want to look up my skirt at work.

          I don’t know how to say this without sounding like a condescending jackass but have you read literally any news lately? Looking up a woman’s skirt barely even scratches the surface of creepy behavior men are capable of in an office.

          1. Alli525*

            Right? People have been known to take PHOTOGRAPHS up women’s skirts – some of these comments today make no sense at all.

            1. JessaB*

              And some courts have actually said that depending where that woman is, it’s not illegal on it’s face to do so. Scarey wot?

              1. SarahKay*

                Yup. In the UK (excluding Scotland) upskirt photos taken in a public place are only prosecuted as a ‘Nuisance’ claim (if at all). It only counts as a sexual offence if the person being photographed isn’t wearing underwear!

                1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                  I hope that means when a woman kicks an up-skirt photographers teeth in, it also gets prosecuted as a “nuisance”.

                  WTF is WRONG with the people who make these freakin’ laws?!?

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I understand that my comfort levels with different situations aren’t the same as everyone else’s but this attitude doesn’t make sense to me either. Is the only point of back panels on desks (or whatever furniture arrangement that minimizes ease of up skirt viewing) to obstruct the creepy behavior from men that would otherwise be occurring? That would be the problem in and of itself and it’s not the fault of office furniture, it’s the fault of the creeps.

            1. LBK*

              I don’t disagree, but I don’t think creeps are going away in the immediate future so I think it’s still better to put in precautions where possible. And predatory behavior aside, I still think there’s something to be said for preventing people from catching accidental glimpses of something; I mean, we put doors on bathrooms for a reason. Just because most people aren’t actively looking doesn’t mean a) they might not see something accidentally that the person might not want them to and b) that people can’t have reasonable expectations for privacy. It seems silly to rely on behavioral controls when the physical solution is so simple and common.

              2. Elizabeth H.*

                That’s reasonable. I find the differences between people’s level of comfort with how much other people see of them in a public or semi-public setting really interesting and that may be factoring into what I am saying here. It involves so many different factors like social context, body image, culture, family background, individual preference, etc. as well as the difference between modesty and vulnerability as commenter Misc described above which I thought was a terrific way to distinguish different elements of this issue.

                1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                  What I’m comfortable with on a PERSONAL level re: modesty or how much I feel comfortable showing in public is a totally different animal than how I would feel on a business or professional level.
                  That I might go to a CLUB in a micro mini with my ass almost hanging out, or a see through top, doesn’t mean that when I’m at WORK I want people being able to look up my dress or down my shirt.

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              Is the only point of back panels on desks (or whatever furniture arrangement that minimizes ease of up skirt viewing) to obstruct the creepy behavior from men that would otherwise be occurring? That would be the problem in and of itself and it’s not the fault of office furniture, it’s the fault of the creeps.

              No, that’s not the point. The point is to obstruct the view of ANYONE. I don’t want anyone looking up my skirt, whether it’s a creepy man, a creepy woman, or my own grandmother.

              1. Elizabeth H.*

                I was responding to LBK’s response to me which objected, “Looking up a woman’s skirt barely even scratches the surface of creepy behavior men are capable of in an office” – I was arguing that creepiness isn’t the make or break point upon which to choose your office furniture.

                In any case, I am fervently pro-modesty panel! I keep all this junk under my desk and I hate the idea that people could see whatever I had on my lap or on top of my under desk cabinet and my spare shoes or whatever. Especially because I like to take off my shoes under my desk. I think everyone should have a back of desk panel that goes all the way down. I also don’t think I was picturing LW#2’s office setup correctly at first for some reason. Now I get what the issue is more clearly.

                1. Specialk9*

                  I have a sit stand desk, and it’s one of those simple tables that look so great in magazines (because nobody puts cords in magazines) but isn’t terribly modest.

      4. Perse's Mom*

        The new desks do not have modesty boards underneath. We are a largely female office and many of the staff wear skirts. If you are using a floor plug, you can see straight under many desks and into the groin area of the staff, and you can also see under certain desks when walking normally through the office.

        Hope that helps. Straight out of the letter, emphasis mine.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The letter writer says “If you are using a floor plug, you can see straight under many desks and into the groin area of the staff, and you can also see under certain desks when walking normally through the office.” That seems like a legitimate problem to me. She’s also not asking for a special desk for just for herself — it sounds like there are a number of women in her office who have the same concern.

        5. finderskeepers*

          Does that refer to someone else using a floor plug and being able to see up the person’s skirt, or the person at the desk using a floor plug without a modesty board? So confused…

          In any event, if using a floor plug is a constant thing, I think your office has bigger problems.

          1. Fabulous*

            After reading these comments, I think it means if someone were to plug in something into a floor plug, they have a direct line of view upskirt.

          2. Turquoisecow*

            Yeah, while I certainly understand the modesty concern, the front of a desk isn’t direct line of sight for someone standing there, and I wonder how often people are plugging things in (or unplugging them) on the floor. I guess you could also argue that if someone picks up a pen from the floor they have line of sight, but how often does that happen?

            If you have coworkers who are using floor plugs or whatnot on a regular basis just for the excuse of getting an upskirt view, that’s another issue entirely.

            2. LBK*

              If this is an open office plan with a lot of hotdesking and no docking stations, people could conceivably be plugging/unplugging laptops pretty regularly. Plus, she explicitly says that there are other places in the office where you can see under someone’s desk even from a standing position. This doesn’t seem like a case that warrants questioning the OP’s grasp of whether something is a problem or not, it’s kinda gaslighting.

            3. Anna*

              Literally does. Not. Matter. OP has expressed concern about something that either is happening or she knows can legitimately happen and that enough of her coworkers are concerned about that they would like management to do something about it. It makes no difference how often a pen gets picked up or a floor plug needs to be used. It is happening with enough regularity the OP is concerned.

              1. Jadelyn*

                Thank you. Do we really need to audit OP’s concern to decide if it’s “reasonable enough” that she’s *allowed* to be concerned about it? Which is what a lot of the comments being made boil down to.

            4. JessaB*

              I am now wondering if these desks are clear lucite or something? Like those computer desks that are just metal struts and clear plastic? Which would make this issue far worse to deal with than a lack of modesty panel.

          3. Browser*

            Electricity is not wireless, things have to be plugged in somewhere. Are you expecting outlets to hang from the ceiling?

            1. Koala dreams*

              I’ve never seen an electric outlet actually in the floor. In apartments, they are usually in a wall, high for lamps, medium level for kitchen applicances and low in the living room for you tv and such. In schools and conference rooms they are usually hanging from the ceiling (yes, I’ve seen this) or mounted on the wall. In many public buildnings they are medium level for vacuuming and such, often slightly too high for easy charging of mobile phones.

              It seems very unpractical to have them in the floor, I would be very bothered with having to squat on the floor to use the outlet, or tripping on it. I guess people have different ideas about optimal outlet placement.

              1. please*

                “I’ve never seen an electric outlet actually in the floor.”

                Floor plugs are common in open-plan offices where there are not walls to place the plugs on. They are flush so when not in use people won’t trip on them.

                I’ve never seen them hanging from ceilings (except in factories) but that probably just reflects on my own limited experience, since you have see that. But I have to dispute the “usually” part of your statement “In schools and conference rooms they are usually hanging from the ceiling” – I don’t believe that at all.

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  I’ve never seen them hanging from ceilings other than factories either. I thought Koala dreams must live someplace other than the US, where these things are common. (I’ve never actually seen them placed “high for lamps” in an apartment, either – they’re always close to the floor in my experience, unless they’re above a countertop.)

              2. zora*

                Floor outlets are super common in hotel conference rooms, in the US anyway, but you might not notice if you aren’t looking for them. They usually have a metal cover that you open, to make them flush with the floor and covered when not in use. The room is so big, you can’t just rely on the walls, you would need crazy extension chords to reach the middle of the room.

                The hot desking area in my building has cords and power strips running along the floor between rows of desks, which I think is annoying and dangerous personally (I tend to trip) but it would result in the same problem the OP is facing, people regularly bending down to the floor to plug/unplug their equipment.

                1. Koala dreams*

                  Yeah, apparently I haven’t been to large enough conference rooms, thanks for explaining! It’s interesting to learn how something so simple as electrical outlet varies so much. I’ll look for those metal covers in the future!

            2. OP2*

              Open plan office, no walls to have plugs (sockets) coming from.
              Also, we did have desktop plugs, but not since the move…
              Lots of hot decking with various equipment means lots of plugging and unplugging of devices too

      2. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        But doesn’t the same thing happen when you are plugging things into an outlet under a conference table?

        And how often are people plugging things in? I can’t remember the last time I plugged or unplugged anything at my desk.

        1. finderskeepers*

          That is why conscious and sensible employers now install outlets built into the *top* of conference tables to avoid this kind of indignity.

          1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

            Or rich ones :) I can’t even tell you how old the conference table is in the office I work in. I do know it was a hand-me-down that we got about 16 years ago.

            It would be silly to spend money to replace a table that is in perfectly good shape just because someone might wear a skirt. Now when it does finally get replaced (and who knows how long that will be) maybe then it would be replaced with a fancy in table outlet version, but I doubt it.

            I would side eye any company that replaces perfectly good furniture for new just because of fashion preference.

            (In case anyone is wondering or it matters.. I am female)

            1. Allison*

              But the OP is talking about newly purchased desks, that replaced desks that did have panels in front; she’s not lobbying to have perfectly good furniture replaced with her preference in mind. Yes, arguments regarding practicality are valid, but reading comprehension is important here.

              1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

                Yes reading comprehension is important… Because the OP clearly states that these are new desks and the only solution would be to replace the desks.

                So umm yeah she is lobbying to replace new furniture.

                1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  Replace them with desks they already have.

                  Or install a panel on the new desks – which, per the furniture designer below, would be NBD.

                  Not a really big expense in either case. The wasteful part of this situation was in buying new furniture to replace functional current furniture, especially considering the new furniture is not really functional. Because I consider furniture not functional if it does not take into account how people dress and sit and use the space.

                2. Snark*

                  No, she’s lobbying to install a panel that I can nearly guarantee is already an optional accessory for that desk, which is not likely to be terribly expensive, and which I’ll bet can be installed in five minutes with a screwdriver.

                3. Natalie*

                  @ Snark, might not even need a screwdriver, I think you can get freestanding ones that just sit on the floor.

                4. Alli525*

                  She’s lobbying to reverse a poorly-made decision on furniture. It’s probably safe to assume that the person who made the decision is (1) a man / (2) has their own office / (3) both, and didn’t consult any open-plan-sitting women about the decision.

              2. LCL*

                Mentioning reading comprehension in a post about something other than reading comprehension is not the friendliest way to further the discussion.

            2. Kate 2*

              Taking the needs of half the population into consideration is normal and necessary if you don’t want to lose good employees. If OP’s employer had done that in the first place they wouldn’t have bought such badly designed desks.

            3. Jadelyn*

              I suppose it depends on your priorities. If you prioritize frugality over the ability of your female employees to come to work in perfectly normal women’s work clothes without having to worry about being exposed to their coworkers in the course of a normal workday…then yeah, I guess it would be “silly” to replace a table or desk that puts your female employees in that position. It just makes it suuuuper clear where your priorities lie, though.

              (Can we also stop calling it “fashion preference”? Skirts, knee-length dresses, pencil skirts, skirt suits, etc are all very common and very appropriate workwear. It’s not like someone wanting to be able to wear graphic tees with their favorite band or political slogans on them, which would legitimately be just a preference for a certain fashion; making it unsafe to wear any skirt shorter than calf-length is a bit beyond “fashion preference”. Unless you think it’s reasonable to expect female employees to go out and buy a whole new work wardrobe to accommodate the office’s “furniture preference”.)

              (And no, it doesn’t matter that you’re female. Women can perpetuate anti-woman bias in the workplace quite well.)

              1. Perse's Mom*

                In re: fashion preference: In some industries and some specific offices, it’s very clear that it’s not a preference at all anyway! You either wear a skirt or you face consequences.

              2. Luna*

                I don’t think I’ve ever seen a women’s business suit with a calf-length skirt. It’s either pants, or a skirt that is about knee length.

              3. Specialk9*

                Yeah, that phrasing made it sound like work appropriate skirts were some wild new fashion craze that NOBODY could have predicted would happen, as opposed to a century old mode of dress that was in fact once the required uniform for half the population. (And still is in some old-fashioned industries.)

                Instead of demanding that women dress like men in the name of frugality (!!!!), howzabout not spending lots of money on phallocentric furniture? Cuz that is pretty sexist, and not at all careful with money.

              4. Annoyed*

                “(And no, it doesn’t matter that you’re female. Women can perpetuate anti-woman bias in the workplace quite well.)

                Anywhere really. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug.

                Thanks for pointing this out. I despise hearing/reading some kind of patriarchally inspired garbage that includs somehing like “and I am [a] female…”

                Almost *always* “female” too. Or “girl.” Hardly ever “woman.” But yeah, women aren’t still being oppressed.

                Sorry for the derail/rant. ‍♀️

            4. JessaB*

              But in that case you could easily mount a powerstrip to the table where it’s accessible. Or run a line and mount one on a wall.

              Heck we have wall outlets and when we move apartments the first thing we do before placing any furniture is run extension cords to all the outlets that the furniture would cover up and make impossible to use. So that we don’t have to move furniture to plug something in. Really high quality powerstrips with surge protection and battery are under 20 bucks now in most places.

              Velcro tape (so you can remove them to replace them) can be had in giant rolls for very little money.

              If the outlet is in a bad place, move the outlet.

            5. Talia*

              Doesn’t need to be rich. We bought power strips, plugged those into the floor, and affixed them to the tops of the desks with plastic braces printed off a 3D printer. Hardly costs anything at all.

              1. Browser*

                And if they chose desks without modesty panels to achieve a certain aesthetic, they probably aren’t going to go for something like that either.

              2. Amanda*

                This has been pointed out ad nauseum but there are a shockingly large number of comments re: outlets, and OP did not write in asking for tips on how to make the floor plugs in her office more convenient and I think it is safe to assume that she is probably amply aware of all the nuances of power strips.

                2. Annoyed*

                  Moreover OP states right in the letter that people simply walking through the office can get an eye-full. It’s not a power strip issue…at all.

            6. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

              “It would be silly to spend money to replace a table that is in perfectly good shape just because someone might wear a skirt.”

              Why?

            7. Carrie*

              “It would be silly to spend money to replace a table that is in perfectly good shape just because someone might wear a skirt.”

              What’s silly is to spend money on replacing large amounts of office equipment without taking into account the existing habits of the employees who use it.

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            And why I exclusively wear pants to meetings that I know will be in an “open square” conference set up. I literally check the rooms for every meeting on my calendar to determine whether I can wear a skirt on a given day.

        2. SKA*

          I often work from home, and my work laptop only has one power supply. So any day I work from the office, I’m under my desk twice a day plugging/unplugging it.

          1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

            Have you asked your IT department (if you have one) for a spare cord? I’ve found they generally have an overflow of stray parts hanging around from frankensteined equipment.

            1. SKA*

              There’s apparently only one spare Mac cord (which I’ve had to borrow when I forgot mine). But I think they like to keep that at IT (for, I assume, people like me who forget theirs).

        3. embertine*

          Anyone who works from a laptop, i.e. everyone who works in construction? And I’m sure this applies to other industries too.

        4. Liz2*

          Everyone in our building is in and out of meetings all day- and everyone brings laptops to every meeting. Happily there are ports on top of everything, including the lunch tables.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      It’s dependent on the office. If the office is poorly air conditioned then wearing extra shorts and tights is problematic.
      The real issue is that they purchased desks that didn’t take the needs of women into account. This is like the male oriented desks we used to have where I worked. They were so high that your feet didn’t touch the ground if you set your chair to the right height.
      I think the women need to go as a group and state the problem. That’s what we women had to do to get our desk problem corrected.

      1. finderskeepers*

        True, on the flip side, my male height means the new-age half height cubicle walls make my workspace sound much noisier.

        1. Jesca*

          Worry not, the half height wall cubicles are noisy for us 5’4″ women as well. I don’t think they were changed to accommodate height though …

        2. HannahS*

          It’s not “on the flip side” because lower cubicle walls were not built based around the average heights of women. They were designed to irritate us all equally.

          1. Jesca*

            Haha they really were! No one ever considered how creepy it can feel sitting in an end of row cubicle and having people walk by all day “glancing” over at your desk while you are working. I feel so on display! And like 99% of people do it!

            1. But you don't have an accent...*

              Ugh I have the corner cube too and I feel like I can’t concentrate on anything because there’s no divider between me and the walk way! And I’m the unofficial morning greeter because pretty much everyone walks by my desk (facing me) as they come in.

          2. Allison*

            Yup. I love my old fashioned cubicle and I am dreading our move to an open office, where at best we’ll have short walls between the desks, and it’ll be a rough adjustment for many of us.

            My coworkers are all “yay, I’ll get to SEE all of you!” and I seem to the one cranky cave dweller who likes getting to disappear into my cube and get my work done in peace.

            1. JessaB*

              I do not know how anyone can hear with those things. They don’t do anything for privacy and they sure as heck don’t baffle the sound.

              1. zora*

                No one can hear. In our company’s main office they have those half walls, for the whole office. And if anyone has to take a phone call they go find a corner somewhere away from the desks. So, people spend half their days running around looking for somewhere to take a call. They all say they are fine with it, but I’m glad I don’t have to work there.

            2. Brittasaurus Rex*

              I worked as an editor at my last office job, a vocation that requires a certain amount of privacy and quietude. Naturally, the PTB decided lower cube walls were a great idea for everyone. Sound was bouncing off the walls! It was ridiculous.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, my office installed a floating staircase between the third and fourth floor, and it was clearly not designed by or for women – there is a reception area directly below it, meaning lots of people hang out down there waiting. When you hear someone come walking down the open stairs, it’s instinctive to glance up and you will be looking directly up their skirt. I either wear pants or take the elevator, but it’s really too bad.

        1. Language Student*

          It never even occurred to me that people could see up skirts if they look up with those. I’ve always hated them anyway (fear of heights) but ahh, that’s bad.

      3. LBK*

        I’m reminded of a building my sister was telling me about recently where they installed very fancy, avant garde transparent stairs in the lobby…clearing without the input of any woman who would have told them, “Uh, guys, this is an upskirt bonanza”.

        1. SarahKay*

          Transparent stairs?!? That sounds like a literal nightmare to me, both for skirt-wearing issues and because I hate walking on surfaces you can see down through. Those old bridges with gaps between the boards – I’m the person holding onto the handrail with a death grip. No. Just, No.

          1. Perse's Mom*

            One of my employer’s two buildings has frosted stairs, but a clear railing panel and the stairs are just flat panels – there’s no front panel, so there are like 6in gaps. It’s the worst of all worlds.

            I take the elevator if I have to go over there.

          2. LBK*

            I’m with you on that – I hate hate hate open stairs, even solid stairs that don’t have a vertical piece between them. No thank you.

            1. RB*

              We have those too. The area immediately under the stairs is blocked off for storage but anyone standing to the side of the stairs and looking up would get a good view. I’ve just learned not to think about it.

              1. Connie-Lynne*

                If it makes you feel any better, when I was in elementary school and Jr High, the outdoor stairs had big gaps between them. Our uniform was a skirt and of course all the girls were worried about boys going under there to look up our skirts.

                Because I am of an analytical bent, and also because I hated wearing shorts under every day, I finally got together with some friends to test whether you could see up our skirts. You could not.

                To me this says that inadvertent upskirt views in a workplace with stairs like this are unlikely. Deliberate ones are also going to take effort.

                (And because it’s been contentious here, this in no way invalidates OP2’s assertion that there are areas where you can inappropriately see under desks and up skirts walking around her office. I only shared it to help put the minds of folks who have open stairs at ease.)

    4. TL -*

      If you’ve worked in a place where shorter skirts can be modest, having to replace a number of your work outfits would be very frustrating and maybe prohibitively expensive/limiting.

      I’m assuming that the floor plugs are somewhat centrally located and often used, versus ones that are out of the way and rarely used – if someone is bending down in front of my desk a few times a week, I would get uncomfortable if they could see my underroos too!

      1. Allison*

        Yes, exactly! Many of my skirts and dresses are knee length or hit just above the knee when standing, and this is fine for my industry and region, but could be an issue with this particular setup. I’d probably be draping a cardigan over my knees every day, because while my wardrobe generally evolves over time, replacing it all at once would be very expensive.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          +1, I realize this doesn’t solve the systematic issue in the office, but in the short term I recommend buying a light shawl and keeping it in your lap like a blanket. I have to do that anyway because I’m next to a floor vent and I’m always cold.

          1. Specialk9*

            Yeah that’s my solution too. In my case due to how my body is built, my knee length skirts go thigh high when sitting, especially in certain chairs. It’s one reason I’ve gravitated to flare skirts, which don’t so they same creep-up.

      2. a1*

        I’m trying to figure out why someone would be constantly plugging or unplugging something it. It doesn’t sound like this is hotdesking, so once you plug in your phone or computer or radio or whatever, wouldn’t it just stay plugged in? I know I only have to crawl under my desk to plug something in when it’s new or replaced. Even when I bring my laptop home, I use the 2nd power supply that came with it, not unplug the one at my desk. And even if I forgot the 2nd one somewhere, it’s not a multi-times a week occurrence to have to unplug something from the floor.

        1. Ersong*

          I plug in my cell phone at work to charge it. I also sometimes have to plug my wireless bluetooth headphones into my computer to charge them, and the computer is on the floor.

          My desk doesn’t have a modesty panel, but I do have cubicle walls around the front of my desk, so no one can see when I’m rooting around under my desk.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            It’s also a design flaw if the only outlets for personal devices are on the floor! I don’t want to be crawling around on my hands and knees every day – the outlets should be on top of the desk/in the cube wall. This theoretical office sounds like Design Hell.

            1. Browser*

              If they had cube walls around these desks, the lack of modesty panel wouldn’t be an issue.

              It is an issue, therefore there are not cubical walls.

            3. Trickle*

              I’m not sure that bending over from a standing position or squatting or leaning over from a sitting position quite counts as crawling around on hands and knees though! I think that’s a little hyperbolic and makes it sound a bigger issue than it really is. I can’t imagine anyone would be crawling anywhere during an average workday of plugging a few items in.

      3. Emmie*

        I do not understand why someone would be able to see another’s groin – even with these open desks. I keep my legs closed when I’m wearing a dress. OPs focus on that feels unbelievable to me. When we get really upset about something, we can take the most extreme position – one that’s not realistic. I get that OP is frustrated. It seems like a change she’s not happy about. But, focus on things that are actually an outcome from this. (To be fair, my position could change if I had more information.) Is there a coworker that’s actually looking at people’s clothed groins? Well, that would be a larger issue that should be addressed no matter the desk situation.

        1. ket*

          But if you’re someone who crosses your legs, for instance, that shows an awful lot of thigh if you’re wearing a pencil skirt. And if you’re not a person who naturally sits at the desk with “legs closed” and not crossed, it’s pretty annoying to have to change how you sit at work. It takes a continual low grade attention that will decrease your productivity or degrade your energy. It’s just another stupid thing distracting you from the bottom line at work, even if — or probably especially if — you are very conscientious.

          It’s poor design. Desks are supposed to be tools to facilitate work. If you need to work around your tools, or be conscious of not using them wrong in ways that are entirely unrelated to their actual purpose, they’re less useful tools. It’s like using a hammer with a broken handle that has slivers. You can tell someone, “just hold it higher up where there aren’t slivers of wood — when I use a hammer I just hold it higher up and it’s fine!” but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a less useful tool as a result.

          1. Lucky*

            And sitting with your legs crossed (which I am doing right now) is not good for your lower back. My company’s ergonomics diagrams show a man sitting with a straight back and both feet planted firmly on the ground, about 12″ apart. For me, today, that would give a clear view up my skirt to the white panel crotch of my tights.

            Lucky for me, when I moved offices & furniture, I asked my coworker to check and see whether I still needed the modesty panel (I wanted to leave it off to give visitors a more comfortable place to sit) and she shouted “NO! I can see!” from her seated position about 6 feet away. She was not on the floor trying to plug in anything.

        2. tigerlily*

          You may keep your legs closed, but that’s not how everyone sits. I’m pretty short for instance, and with the office chairs we have at our office, if I sit against the back of the chair with my legs together in front of me, my feet don’t touch the floor. So usually I’m sitting with my legs completely open against the sides of the chairs so my feet are resting on the wheels of the chair.

          I’m getting a little annoyed about the comments that are saying this shouldn’t be an issue or OP is exaggerating the situation. This may not be something that would be an issue for you, but it is for the OP and the other women at her work.

          2. Perse's Mom*

            I don’t even wear skirts and some of these comments are kind of enraging me. It would be exhausting to have to be constantly aware of how visible my groin is to everyone else at work, even in jeans.

            1. LBK*

              As a guy who’s not inclined towards wearing skirts I’ve been trying to think about whether my sitting position would be revealing if I were wearing one today and boy, I would be flashing people constantly. It’s really hard to force yourself to do if you don’t naturally sit that way.

              1. Oranges*

                Hmmmm…. I kinda want a national “men must wear skirts day” now. Also when other people can see up your skirt they have to point it out to you. I might be slightly evil.

          3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            And I’m fat, and it’s quite difficult to keep my knees together when seated. Nobody would see my underwear if they looked up my skirt, but they’d see my bare thighs, and that’s also not ok with me.

        3. Perse's Mom*

          I do not understand why someone would be able to see another’s groin – even with these open desks.

          Because people don’t rubberband their knees together to prevent any adjustment of position that might accidentally flash someone else.

          I keep my legs closed when I’m wearing a dress. OPs focus on that feels unbelievable to me.

          We’re asked to take OPs at their word (that this is really a concern for multiple women in her office), the OP is the best judge of her office environment, and that first sentence is weirdly judgmental and shaming and not okay.

          1. OP2*

            It is an issue for the other women (we’ve discussed it) and even those who consistently wear trousers are uncomfortable with the lack of privacy.

            I shouldn’t have to use this as justification but, I’m going to. Some of the women have back problems and their physio has instructed them on how to sit (ie NOT with legs crossed) so they physically cannot use that avoidance technique.

            Also, it just takes wrong timing for someone to catch a view, I’m assuming you don’t stand up with your legs still crossed.

            Please believe me when I say, you can see groins when just walking normally through the office. It’s not about me changing my behaviour to protect me from crotch shots (being on either end). We previously had a desks that worked, and was not considered with the new desks – they we I’ll considered.

            Also, we needed to buy desks because we relocated and expanded to an empty office

            1. Perse's Mom*

              I’m assuming you meant to nest this under Emmie’s comment above, because I completely agree with you!

            2. Specialk9*

              I’m sorry you had to deal with this comment, and others like it, when coming to ask for advice.

              It’s like this tiny microcosm of what happens when women complain about anything that affects only them. I’m having a hard time not getting mad at all of the people dismissing your problem, questioning your veracity or grasp of how things work, fixating on irrelevant aspects, shaming you for not being sufficiently womanly AND for not dressing like dudes, and implying you should suck it up in the name of frugality, etc. It just feels like sexism in a box.

        4. Jadelyn*

          Do you have magnets on the inside of your knees to help them stay 100% pressed together at all times, or something? Because it’s very natural for the knees to part slightly when you’re sitting – it doesn’t require sitting with your legs *spread*, but the natural way the body arranges itself leaves anywhere from 6-12″ of space between the knees. So you’re basically saying that any woman who wears a skirt or dress should have to sit in an unnatural position at all times to avoid anyone seeing up their skirt, rather than considering that the company should’ve stuck with the same kind of desks it already had. How does that sound like the reasonable position here?

      4. Jadelyn*

        Especially if you’re tall and/or long-legged, skirts that stay below the knee are near impossible to find in professional wear. I’m 5’8″, but it’s all in my legs (seriously, if I stand next to my father, who’s 6′, we’re the same height at the hip), and every professional pencil skirt I’ve ever tried has wound up being a couple inches above the knee on me, even standing. I’d have to go to some pretty extreme lengths, either shopping at (expensive) specialty retailers who cater to tall women or paying extra to have items tailored, to have professional skirts that stay at or below my knees.

        1. Tiny Soprano*

          And that problem just gets worse the less you can afford. H&M pencil skirts sit just above the knee on me and I have the legs of a miniature pony. Taller women on a junior salary can’t be expected to fork out on expensive clothing all because they happen to be a) tall and b) women.

        2. Specialk9*

          I absolutely agree with this problem. Especially being leggy with a big rear and hips, that just makes the sitting hem creep-up worse.

          Nobody should have to adjust for sexist furniture choice, but as an aside to people with the same problem: eShakti has affordable clothes with no cost height adjustment; flare skirts don’t tend to ride up as much (though that’s a bit less formal than column skirts); and one can layer a second skirt under for coverage (not in hot weather though, and you have to match skirt shape – both flare, both straight).

          1. mrs__peel*

            And also POCKETS!! (As standard, without an extra fee!) That’s the most exciting part for me…

    5. SS Express*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that *didn’t* have modesty boards. “Just wear a pair of black Spanx under your dress every day and sit with your legs crossed” isn’t actually a great solution. Especially to someone who is concerned about their finances, posture or yeast infections.

      P.S. The OP isn’t asking for a special desk at a company that doesn’t usually provide them, she and her colleagues are asking to *all* keep using the same type of desk they always had in the past.

      1. TL -*

        Yeah, if I’m deeply absorbed in something, I tend to curl a leg up under me or sit cross-legged on a chair without thinking about it. I don’t wear just a skirt that often but I could see myself putting on quite a show without realizing it!

        1. Tuesday Next*

          Exactly. I’m sure productivity isn’t improved when your staff have to focus on how they are sitting / are they flashing their colleagues instead of actually, you know, working.

      2. Sam*

        Honestly, I’m having a hard time picturing this being an issue unless you’re sitting with splayed legs or wearing a mini skirt. Without more info, I wouldn’t blame whoever needs to sign off on the desk purchase for being skeptical. For the record, this is coming from someone who wears dresses or skirts to work 100% of the time. I literally do not own work-appropriate pants. And while my current desk has a “modesty board,” that hasn’t always been the case. I was concerned people would judge me for kicking off my shoes or the like, but I can’t say that flashing people was something I ever worried about. Am I just in the minority on this?

        1. copy run start*

          Maybe we are. I’ve guess I’ve just never thought any skirt that could be revealing when sitting was work appropriate, and my mother always drilled in me to keep my legs closed/crossed at all times, wear pantyhose, etc. I’m not that old but perhaps I am old fashioned? I feel like it probably makes the workplace look sloppy to not have a “modesty board” (a closed-back desk does hide the cable clutter and help all genders look more professional in general) but that’s not reason enough to purchase all new desks in my book. Surely someone can come up with a solution, like attaching a fabric skirt or a bit of board to the underside?

          1. a1*

            Yes, I was just taught that wearing a skirt means you have to sit differently. It’s just part of the deal. Unless is a maxi or full length skirt. This is partly why I hardly wear skirts or dressed to work. Because even if my desk a modesty panel, conference rooms dont, lobbies, don’t lunch places don’t, etc.

            1. ket*

              In a conference room, everyone is facing each other and your legs are all under the table together. In a lobby, you’re not working. At lunch, there are often chairs right across from you or since it’s a short amount of time and you’re not doing analytical work you can take the mental energy to monitor your posture. It’s great that you and copy run start are happy to self-monitor your posture at all times of the day, just as some people are trained never to leave the house without a full face of makeup and others know a lady never swears. But some of us need to wear a skirt suit for some purpose and, slovenly as we may be, we may want to spend 20 minutes out of 8 hours with our legs apart, without checking every time whether someone’s in line to see under our desk!

              1. a1*

                My point was, that I was taught that wearing a skirt meant you had to sit different, period. All day long, no matter where you are. It’s just part of the deal of skirt wearing. That doesn’t mean I think the OP should be uncomfortable, but I’m just flabbergasted that so many people don’t think that. If you wear a skirt, it’s more prone to showing things you don’t want show (like your underwear) and to deal with that you sit with your legs closed – all the time – no matter where you are sitting, a desk, a bench, a car, a stool, a couch, etc. And it’s quite surprising to learn that a lot of people think skirt wearing means no change in how you sit. Like I said above, this is why I hardly ever wear skirts or dresses – because I don’t want to deal with it. On the occasions I do wear skirts or dresses I keep my knees closed in lots of different ways (i.e. not crossing by legs or ankles because crossing ankles actually makes my knees spread) because as has been noted our bodies are different and what works for one person may not for another.

                1. Natalie*

                  I don’t think anyone is suggesting that a person would or should never sit differently while wearing a skirt. Sitting in X Position during your 30 minute bus ride (with a seatback right in front of you) or during your hourlong meeting in the conference room (where you can reasonably assume no one is crawling around under the table) is one thing. Having to sit in only X Position for 8+ hours while you’re supposed to be focusing your attention on tasks other than How Am I Sitting? is an entirely different matter.

                  Now, I’ll spare everyone my random musings about why but I imagine some people skirt-sit without thinking about it at all, it’s utterly second nature. But others don’t, and folks just have to accept that this is a reality for plenty of people. Especially when a nice simple solution like a panel is available.

                2. Perse's Mom*

                  I don’t think anyone at all has said wearing a skirt means no change in how you sit. I think lots of other commenters are aware that it’s mentally draining to *constantly monitor* exactly how you’re sitting so that you don’t inadvertently flash the room. The modesty panel doesn’t mean skirt-wearing women all Al Bundy it up; it means they can cross their legs or sit with a leg under them or whatever position is most comfortable for them so that they can focus on their job and not whether Fergus just walking by can see London AND France if he turns his head slightly.

                3. KRM*

                  I am a VERY restless sitter, and constantly move my legs around, skirt or no skirt. If I had to mentally monitor my sitting position ALL DAY while wearing a skirt, that would be really irritating and draining on my mental energy. Currently I am sitting with one leg crossed under me and one on a raised panel under the desk. Luckily my desk is on a wall–I got into this position unconsciously, because it’s comfortable now, and if I in 10′ suddenly realized I had to think about if someone could see up my skirt or not, that would suck.

                4. a1*

                  So you *are* saying you weren’t taught to sit differently all day, full stop, period, when wearing a skirt. I like to be comfortable, too, and am a restless sitter – I move my legs all the time. This is why I mostly wear pants. I can sit however the hell I want w/o risk of exposing my undies. But when I do wear a skirt, I sit differently, all day long. Yes, it’d be more comfy to sit on one leg or put one leg over the other, or any other position, but I don’t – because skirt. AND I even am in a cubicle but you never know when someone will walk by or stop in, and if you need to adjust, etc.

                5. Natalie*

                  @a1, you are arguing against a point no one has made. And as the LW didn’t ask about their wardrobe, I’m not sure why you’re giving them wardrobe suggestions.

                6. a1*

                  I am giving no one wardrobe suggestions. I’m stating what my experience has been. As do nearly all the commentators on nearly all the letters. I was also clarifying why so many of us are surprised because we don’t have those same expectations – to sit however we want when wearing a skirt at work. I even said the OP should be comfortable. Please don’t infer anything I’m not implying. I choose word based on what they mean. I mean nothing more than I say.

                7. Luna*

                  I’m willing to bet that the people insisting that they sit with their knees jammed together 100% of the time, for 8 hours straight, do not in fact really do this and just don’t realize it. You don’t have to have your legs splayed wide open for upper thighs and sometimes groin area to be visible. Plus when a person is concentrating on something else (like work) it is normal for the body to relax into a more natural position without noticing right away.

                8. Specialk9*

                  A1, I don’t think you’re intending to sound critical and dismissive, but you are. You’re basically implying that women who don’t sit the way your mother taught you are doing it wrong, and are responsible for people seeing their underwear at work. That doesn’t need to be said in this context – OP says desks used to have modesty panels and don’t now, and it was decided by a man who still has a private office and a desk with privacy panel – and it reeks of victim blaming.

                  I wear dresses and skirts almost exclusively due to body proportions and preference. I am very conscious of my posture when in ‘public’ – walking to get coffee, to the bathroom, through the halls – but not when concentrating at my desk. Having sexist furniture policies is just sexist – why are you arguing that women should change behavior instead of that the male exec should fix his accidentally sexist mistake?

                9. Annie Moose*

                  For the record, I grew up regularly wearing skirts as well, and I have indeed learned the fine art of “how to sit on a chair across from a bunch of other people, in a knee-length pencil skirt, without anyone seeing my underwear”.

                  But it’s still incredibly annoying to deal with, and even though I’ve done it all my life it’s still something that I spend way too much of my brainspace focusing on any time I’m in that situation. Especially because I’m a naturally fidgety person for whom it’s extremely uncomfortable to stay in one position for a long period of time. In the context of an office, where I’m working at a desk, this is not something that I should have to pay attention to or focus on, because normal desks do not cause this problem.

                  And that’s the crux of the matter: not “are they sitting properly in a skirt”, which I assume an office full of women who regularly wear skirts would know how to do, but “why should they have to when they previously didn’t need to and there was no problem caused by this”.

                10. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                  My mom almost never wore skirts/dresses, and honestly, neither did I until I was in high school. So not really much opportunity there, lol. She did *try* to teach me to sit “like a lady” in shorts, but it didn’t stick. Basically, it wasn’t comfortable for me to sit that way, so I refused to do it.
                  I’m 51 and my mom would be 89 if she were still here, so it’s not like I didn’t grow up in the right era or something.

          2. Annie Moose*

            Attaching a bit of board is what a modesty board is! That is precisely what the Letter Writer is asking for.

          3. Kate 2*

            Really? Most skirts I see now are designed to be knee length, if you don’t sit with legs tight together they are just the length to show a straight shot view of everything! Are you wearing calf length skirts maybe? Or maybe this is a height issue.

        2. Fabulous*

          I was skeptical at first when I read this one too; my initial thought was “why are you wearing skirts that short to work?!” But then I realized, even if the skirt was knee length it’d still have clear view under it when sitting… like a fitted or pencil skirt, not something flowy that actually drapes over the legs. So I can see how it could be an issue for those who don’t wear pantyhose or shorts underneath. Yes, one could cross their legs, but you obviously can’t sit that way all day. I’m constantly moving in my chair so my legs don’t fall asleep. It’d be terrible if I didn’t have something covering the front of my desk!

          1. sap*

            In what world are pantyhose a solution to “people see my underwear now, and it feels exposing/unprofessional?” Most pantyhose are sheer up to at least a point on the thigh that would be inappropriate to expose at work, or to the underwear. Also, lots of people consider the part where the hose turn more opaque (if you’re wearing that kind, which are actually not that common anymore) to be… Underwear, either from the perspective of their own modesty or the perspective of what they find titillating/inappropriate to see.

            1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

              On the rare occasions my mom wore a skirt or dress, she’d wear pantyhose with an opaque top or built in panty and that’s it. Because she almost never wore underwear at all, even with pants. She’d had several abdominal surgeries and found that wearing more than one layer of anything was too binding.

        3. JB (not in Houston)*

          Hold up, I don’t wear mini skirts but you would definitely be able to see up my knee-length skirts when I’m sitting down. And why can’t I sit with splayed legs at my desk, anyway? I have to sit carefully all day long, all the time making sure that my legs are tightly closed together? That’s ridiculous.

            1. oldbiddy*

              I’m surprised at the number of people who put the responsibility on the skirt wearer to sit in a proper position at all times. It’s kind of like the argument that if someone didn’t want to have an upshirt picture taken, they shouldn’t have worn a skirt. We need to have a reasonable expectation of relative privacy most of the time. It’s in the best interest of the company’s productivity that their employees don’t have to waste mental and physical energy constantly self-monitoroing their sitting position.

              1. Future Analyst*

                Seriously. Do you want me to think about work, or spend the day thinking about my legs/exposure? Seems like a no-brainer.

          2. cutie honey*

            “And why can’t I sit with splayed legs at my desk, anyway? I have to sit carefully all day long, all the time making sure that my legs are tightly closed together? That’s ridiculous.”

            This!!

        4. Jesmlet*

          Coming from a slightly above average thicker-thighed woman, I’d have to sit with my legs more than shoulder width apart for anyone to see anything besides a little extra of my leg. How loose would a short skirt have to be in order for “splaying” to be a legitimate problem? Granted, I’m pants or dresses but there’s just an understanding that your posture when wearing a dress is different than when wearing pants. I just can’t imagine this being a problem that I would have thought of beforehand, or frankly that I would spend money on to fix.

          1. Arjay*

            This is where I’m coming from too. I can sit and move around normally in a skirt or dress without showing off the fine china. Maybe different body types have different issues with this.

            1. Tiny Soprano*

              They definitely do. The downside of a thigh-gap you could drive a truck through is that unless the dress is mid-calf, someone’s probably going to see something at some point.

          2. TL -*

            My thighs touch but you can still see a lot because I sit in weird positions (crossed legged on a chair, one leg tucked up, both legs tucked up, legs making an acute angle, manspreading, jiggling leg) and people who have wide set legs or skinny legs also should deserve to not have their underwear on view, so…

        5. Snark*

          Are you seriously under the impression that litigating the LW’s personal boundaries and comfort level is a productive line of discussion or in any way helpful to them?

          2. Anna*

            JFC, thank you. I don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

            1. Don’t worry about how short their skirts are. Clearly , where they work they are within dress code and so it’s none of your business.
            2. Don’t worry about how they’re sitting. Clearly, it’s none of your business and it’s getting into some weird policing.
            3. Don’t worry about why people would be plugging things into the floor or why the plugs are on the floor or ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE DAMN PLUGS. Clearly, there’s a reason for it and how the plugs are situated has nothing to do with the concerns the OP has.

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              Honestly.

              I’m stunned people are so caught up on the plugs. If the LW was worried about the rogue acrobatic troupe that backflips through the office I certainly wouldn’t be able to relate – but I wouldn’t say “Well, how often do they REALLY backflip? And wouldn’t it be easier to just have them stay in the lobby to perform astonishing feats of athleticism?”

              This set up is a problem for the LW. Ergo, regardless of my personal experience, I accept her at her word that this is indeed an issue.

            3. tigerlily*

              Yes for sure about the plugs. So many people confused about the plugs and offering up that the solution should be to move the plugs. Um…unless OP is a certified electrician, I don’t think that’s in her control at all.

              1. sap*

                Yeah, I’m confused that commenters think move the plugs is a thing that it would be MORE likely the employer would do. Spend tens of thousands of dollars rewiring the office vs. definitely less on wood? Probably not gonna br a solution if an employer is too stingy to buy plywood.

            4. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

              I used to work at a large US chain clothing retailer where all the up to and including corporate level, the dress code was so relaxed you could go to work (yes, in the corporate office) wearing clothes that were suitable for a nightclub, even miniskirts, fishnets and fetish wear were/are office appropriate (for both women and men, I might add.)

              Even in that office, open back desks where people can see your crotch would be a blow it.

              This has NOTHING to do with what people are actually wearing.

        6. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          FWIW, I’m someone who is overweight and a simple “sit with your legs crossed every day at your desk” would be debilitatingly uncomfortable for me. This is very much a case of “I, as the unique person I am with my own attendant plusses and downsides, can do it, so why can’t everyone?” It’s cause there are a dozen reasons that don’t apply to you, but apply to others, and the easy and kind thing to do is to just believe people when they tell you these things. I’m willing to do whatever I need to on the subway or whatever, but if I’m at work, where I live for 8 hours a day, I would like to be able to sit comfortably!

          1. a Gen X manager*

            Agree, Kimberlee! Further, sitting at a desk cross-legged for any length of time isn’t ergonomically sound and certainly shouldn’t be done for the whole day!

          2. Polar Bear don't care*

            I’ve had three blood clots in the same leg. I never cross my legs. I only wear skirts. I AM conscious of my skirt positioning, but having to glue my knees together all day every day is unreasonable. A few may think otherwise but that doesn’t make the rest of us wrong.

          3. Jadelyn*

            This is why I hate flying – I’m so hyperaware of my physical boundaries and trying to keep myself to myself in my seat, and my thigh muscles literally get sore because I’m having to actively squish my thighs together for hours on end. I can’t imagine having to do it at work.

        7. Oranges*

          A skirt needs to be ~2 inches below the knee in order for no “up-skirt” to be possible.

          Knowledge I have from being in band in a religious school. We had to wear skirts (had to hit the knee-cap) but for recitals we had to wear longer ones just because we were on stage and upskirts would happen.

          1. Oranges*

            This also didn’t account for the fact that in recitals we had perfect posture and didn’t re-adjust our legs. So in real life? I’m guessing more like 4 inches below the knee.

        8. NaoNao*

          Yeah I also was like “how…are…they…seeing…anything?” But then I have full thighs that sort of…spread to hide the “view” when seated, shall we say, I tend to sit with legs crossed at waist (not ankle in other words), and I wear tights or skimmies/spanx under every skirt because chub rub is real, y’all.
          So, yeah, you weren’t the only one :)

          But I was also like “how often are people plugging stuff in?

          So many questions.

          1. nonegiven*

            Sounds like they are hot desking, so at least twice a day, barring needing to plug in a phone charger or something else, too.

      3. anonagain*

        Agreed. Also, I wear shorts or leggings under skirts or dresses most of the time, because I move around too much. I still don’t want anyone to be able to see up my skirt.

        This also seems like the kind of issue that once brought to your attention, you find a way to fix. I would be really uneasy if I told a boss that I was worried about people being able to see up my skirt and they said there was nothing to be done.

        1. CG*

          Agreed, especially co-signing that last bit.

          I’m a tall lady currently wearing a super modest work dress that hits about an inch below the bottom of my knee cap when I stand, and about 4 inches above the top of my knee cap when I sit at my desk chair (I just checked both of these). I cross my legs a lot and I wear tights all winter, but if I had a desk that faced out into my office with no modesty panel, I’d still feel a little uncomfortable all day too, whether people were regularly bending down to eye level with my junk to plug stuff in or not. Having the view of your legs/skirt exposed from the front when you sit is pretty abnormal for most non-casual office desk jobs, and that would feel like a pretty big environmental change, and I’m a bit put off by some of the comments here implying that women who feel super uncomfortable must be wearing miniskirts or sitting in unprofessional manners.

          1. CG*

            Also, I spend a lot of time at conferences, and when you’re in a big rectangle conference room setup and they forget to add a modesty panel, you can see all of everything across the way from you. It’s not just people bending down nearby who can see stuff – it’s also people with a bit of distance who are at eye level.

            1. Mononymous*

              +1 if this is an open office, unless all the desks are facing the same direction in rows like in a classroom (which I highly doubt), anyone who glances up from their computer screen could get an eyeful at any time. I don’t know about y’all, but I glance across the room several times an hour to refocus my eyes to avoid eye strain. I would be right there with OP campaigning for modesty panels in this office.

            2. SarahKay*

              CG, Our site has exactly the conference room set-up you describe, and if I’m wearing a knee-length skirt I’m very conscious of the need to be more careful about how I sit, because I know that I can see the laps of everyone sitting opposite me.

              Also, seconded that I’m not thrilled about the comments implying that the problem is with OP / those who feel uncomfortable.

          2. Jennifer*

            Not to mention, it’s unfair to expect that women police their body position much more stringently then men.

            2. CG*

              Seriously! It takes effort and focus to constantly think about what your legs are doing and whether the view is appropriate.

        3. Misc*

          “This also seems like the kind of issue that once brought to your attention, you find a way to fix. ”

          Yeah. I started off reading this going ‘this is a thing?’ And ended going ‘well, clearly it is a thing even if it would not be a problem for me specifically, it is affecting people, obviously this should be fixed and would be quite easy to solve if someone actually cared’.

      4. JessaB*

        It can be a nightmare when they want to change the look of the place. I basically got forced out of a company that wanted to redesign and wouldn’t take into account my ADA need for a certain type of chair. Mind you the expense to the company was ZERO, I was sitting in one. All they had to do was sell off 1 less chair. But no, all the chairs had to be exactly the same, already negotiated accommodation aside. I ended up leaving, the place was awful in more ways than that.

        But my point is, once a company gets some design idea in their corporate heads, they can get really unreasonable when there’s pushback. Even when the new design will cost thousands and thousands and they already have a design that works. The people who think these things up don’t care about their impact they care how pretty it is.

    6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I think between making employees have to buy new wardrobes to work with the desks and the company simply using their old desks (or replacing the new, unimproved ones), it makes more sense to put the burden on the company to come up with a workable solution. OP shouldn’t have to readjust her body posture and wardrobe to fit the desks—the desks should fit the users!

      [I’ll reserve my rant about all office furniture being designed for the average man, not the average woman! :) ]

      1. tsehafy*

        I recall that when the Scottish Parliament was re-modeled some years ago they weren’t going to put in modesty panels at the desks where the members of parliament sat. To demonstrate the need, women parliamentarians showed a man with a kilt sitting at the desk. Point was apparently taken. To make the point to the employer, I would be tempted to find the most colorful fabric I could and install a little curtain using removable hooks where the modesty board should go.

        1. SarahKay*

          I have a vivid memory of a ceilidh in Edinburgh where some friends and I glanced across at a row of men in kilts, and realised they had all decided to go for the traditional approach to underwear with a kilt (i.e. none!). The men were all sitting upright, legs slightly apart – fine in trousers, but it hadn’t occurred to them that it was rather less fine in kilts….

              1. JessaB*

                You’d think Scotsmen who regularly wear kilts would already know this, but I’m not surprised. I can imagine the OMG what look on all their faces.

                1. SarahKay*

                  We were all students, so only aged 18-21, and some of them were English, so in both cases, not necessarily much practice in kilt-wearing. And certainly not much practice in kilt-wearing with no underwear. We thought it was hilarious, they were very definitely more OMG what :)

          2. Emi.*

            Ha! My husband got married in a kilt and I had to coach him on how to sit properly in church beforehand. He was like “Oh, that’s why you always do that thing with your skirt. It all makes sense now.”

            1. Amber T*

              I was a bridesmaid in a wedding party where all the groomsmen wore kilts. We were taking pictures outside and it was fairly obvious who was used to wearing kilts (and skirts) and who was not. It was particularly windy that day, and every time a good breeze came by, the groom, his brother, and his best men (Scotsmen who were used to wearing kilts), and all of the ladies, would gently hold their sides to keep their fabric in place. The rest of the gentlemen… let’s just say I’m a bit grateful that they decided not to go the traditional route and allow them to wear something underneath!

          3. Aphrodite*

            There’s an image online (not hard to find in Google Images) showing a formal picture of Queen Elizabeth sitting in the front row center of a group of soldiers (I think) who are all wearing kilts. One of the men right next to her is sitting as he is used to–and you see every darn part of him.

      2. bluesboy*

        Thank you for your last sentence about office furniture being designed for men – it sent me off on a fascinating Google hunt! As a 6 foot 1 man I’ve always found everything a touch small for me but just assumed it was normal when you’re taller than average. In particular, I struggle with kitchens – I love cooking, but can get backache while chopping or washing up because the surface is too low.

        It was absolutely fascinating (and not a little shocking) for me to discover that even in 2017 the average office is designed for men and the average kitchen is designed for women!

        To get back on topic, let me confirm that open backed desks are awkward for me too – I’ve had a number of occasions when I’ve had to plug a laptop in while sitting across from a skirt wearer. Still not sure of the etiquette – should I turn my head away and try and find the socket by touch? Warn her that I’m going under the desk, and that she might want to cross her legs? Because to me that sounds really pervy. Current solution is to ask her to stand up, pretending that her feet are in the way of the socket. It’s really just easier with a modesty board.

        1. HannahS*

          Hah, it’s a point of commiseration for me (5’2) and my cousin (6’3) that our backs hurt all the time from furniture that’s not designed for us.

            1. VerySleepyPregnantLady*

              5’2″ very pregnant person here.

              Every G-D thing is unusable. Counters are such a no go I’ve given up and do all food prep while sitting at the kitchen table.

            2. nonegiven*

              My cousin had the best kitchen for her height when she was single. The kitchen in the house she rented had been designed for a woman in a wheelchair. She said the countertops were perfect for her.

          2. Kate 2*

            Love this! As a 5’0 woman everywhere I go, when I sit my feet almost never touch the ground. City buses and subways, furniture stores, restaurants, etc. At the office if I sit at the right height for the desk to be comfortable my feet don’t touch the ground, if I sit at a height that lets my feet be on the ground my arms are raised close to shoulder height when I type. And I can’t really get my back against my chair either way because the bottom of the chair is so long that my knees can’t be bent when I do, my legs have to stick out.

            TL;DR Being really tall or really short is ergonomic hell.

            1. But you don't have an accent...*

              I am also 5’0, and I need a modesty panel because I either have to rest my feet on the wheels of my chair or let them dangle uselessly if I want to be in a comfortable typing position.

          3. Misc*

            Same. Well, actually, I’m a totally normal height, but my legs are really short so I am taller than almost everyone when I sit down (I gain like a foot of apparent height).

            Ergonomics are delightful fun.

        2. App*

          Ergonomics began around WW2 – because suddenly, large amounts of data on the measurements of a lot people become available.
          However, all that data came from American GIs – so varied…. but not that much. In order to serves you had to be a certain range of height-weight-fitness-body type-whatever, and THAT’S why all our desks, tables, and chairs are great for the “standard” man, but not so much for short people, tall people, or (gasp!) women.
          Things are getting better (height adjustable desks are pretty great!) but slowly.

          1. Specialk9*

            My mom did a kitchen redesign, and was fine with re-used cabinets, but *insisted* on a raised dishwasher, even though it was a bit of a bother. My dad tells her she was right every single time he does dishes. It makes SUCH a difference! (Also I’m inferring he likely complained a lot.)

        3. LCL*

          Ha. It’s like the theater aisle dilemma, when you have to walk past a seated row of people do you face toward them so your equipment is in their face, or away from them so your rear is in their face? There is no good non-rude answer.

          1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

            lol… Especially when the people in the row ahead gets the alternative option to the back of the head.

            I think the only answer is for everyone to look away, give as much room possible, and hurry!

          2. Specialk9*

            Actually some cultures have a clear rule. I was told that my face-away while apologizing and edging awkwardly past someone in aisle seating was rude, and that in that country it was face-to-face. (I want to say Switzerland?) Which just feels awful to me – when they stand, it’s eye contact awkwardness, and when they stay seated I’m basically shoving my crotch in their face.

        4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yep. I’m 5’8 and working on the kitchen counter kills my back — I’ve got the double-whammy of being taller than kitchens are designed for, and having quite a lot of weight up top, so my back muscles go bonkers holding me at that just-slightly-leaning angle.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Allow me to commiserate! I’m 5’8″ with a…let’s call it a significant amount of chest, and doing dishes is an absolute flipping misery for my lower back. Cooking isn’t much better, which is probably part of why I hate it so much.

            1. Misc*

              This is a bit off topic, but gc2b makes fantastic binders that while aimed at trans men are also ideal as an alternative to bras because they hold all the weight close to your centre of mass and take the strain off your upper back.

        5. Elizabeth West*

          I’m a 5′ 11″ woman and nothing designed for *me* fits. I have to buy men’s pajamas or shell out for specialized tall clothing. Car seats must be pushed back. Airplane seating in economy sucks.

          There was an article recently saying that passengers who prefer the window seat are more selfish–they like to be in control and be in their own bubble. Rubbish–I take the window seat because there is a slight curvature in the fuselage that gives me an infinitesimal bit of room for my long-ass legs.

          2. Not a Morning Person*

            And what’s wrong with preferring comfort on a flight? If it’s selfish to want to be comfortable, then I’m going to assume that everyone’s preference, window or aisle or wherever is selfish!

            1. sap*

              Brilliant! I must find it and disseminate it as widely as possible so I can have the window seat all to myself!

        6. sap*

          I think warning the woman across from you ONLY that you’re going to be rummaging on the floor is polite, as a matter of etiquette. She can cross or not cross her legs as she sees fit. I’d be a bit put off if a man warned me that he was going to plug something in “so I might want to cross my legs.” If he wasn’t senior to me, he would get at least a snippy, sarcastic comment about how the more appropriate solution would be for him to put out his eyes if he can’t help himself, or go back to 1930, or “thanks violentacrez.” So I would caution against that approach.

          Honestly, I warn The Room I’m going to be on the floor if there are people withing probably a 6-foot radius of me because I’ve been stepped on and it’s not fun.

        7. SS Express*

          Interesting how nobody’s telling Bluesboy that his problem’s not really a problem and all he needs to do is police his clothing choices to the point of inconvenience and compromise both his posture and his ability to focus on his work…

      3. KR*

        I am HERE for your rant if you want to take it to the open thread Friday. So sick of huge gigantic chairs meant for large, tall people and being completely too big for my small frame. My posture matters too!

        1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

          I’ll join that rant! Here’s my personal rage point. Why for the love of green apples has nobody designed a foot rest/riser that takes into account the base and wheels of an office chair. I feel like I’m always sitting funny because I can’t put my feet directly below my knees because the foot rest can’t fit in the correct place.

          1. Competent Commenter*

            OH!!! That’s why foot rests aren’t as good as the floor! I’m 5’1” and have very short legs proportionally and a hard time fitting at work tasks. I finally got things settled at work in a way that is ergonomically acceptable and solves my chronic pain issues but can’t seem to do it at home. Part of the problem is that I have to use a foot rest at home and it’s just never all that comfortable. I couldn’t figure out why. This totally makes sense. Thank you!!!

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I’ll bring it on Friday! :) I have a bunch of favorite academic articles about it, too.

          Nothing fires up an obsessive frustration with office furniture like going to law school and being in constant pain because literally zero spaces are built for your body (or the bodies of 50-55% of the school population) ;)

        3. Snorks*

          I’m 6’8″ and 330 lbs. I can personally guarantee you that standard furniture is not made for large, tall people.

      4. KellyK*

        Exactly! If the company suddenly rolled out a completely different dress code, with no advance notice and expected employees to comply immediately, I think a lot of people would better understand the inconvenience. Essentially, that’s what they did, except that instead of deliberately writing “all skirts must fall below the knee” into a formal document, they went out and bought furniture that created the requirement, probably without even noticing they were doing that.

    7. Observer*

      From what the OP describes, knee length is not going to work – the floor plugs are a MAJOR problem in this regard.

      As for sitting with ankles crossed at all times, what century is this, again?

      1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        The century that has women who doesn’t want people looking up their skirts :) This isn’t a women’s lib issue, it’s a keep your private bits covered issue.

        I have to admit I’m with the others that say if you are going to wear a skirt you have to adjust your sitting position. Ankles crossed isn’t the only way to accomplish this… knees together generally works too.

        1. SystemsLady*

          I have to ask, are you a woman? Because especially if not, please don’t assume that crossing your legs can’t get uncomfortable for those bits. It can.

          1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

            Yes I am a woman. And I didn’t say that crossing ankles or legs are the only answer. Knees together not splayed usually does the trick just as well as leg or ankle crossing.

            1. Anna*

              Keeping my knees together all day while I sat at my desk would be incredibly uncomfortable, as I’m sure it would for a lot of other women and probably men. And again, it’s about a female identified person wearing a skirt having to adjust the way they sit while a male identified person does not. This is what’s known as everyday sexism.

            2. Kate 2*

              I have thick thighs. Keeping my knees together for 8 hours a day every day would not only be uncomfortable it would be painful.

              Why should the onus be on women to drop 200$ on pants or be physically uncomfortable all day long?

              Why isn’t the onus on the company which purchased office equipment that ignores the needs and bodies of 1/2 their employees?

            3. Guava*

              I think it is completely ridiculous to assume that all women are going to be completely comfortable keeping their knees together or ankles crossed for the duration of an eight-hour workday. This is an office, not church. We’re not being graded on penmanship or posture here. It’s not the 1950s. Management didn’t take the needs of the female employees into account when they ordered the new desks. It’s their job to fix it.

            4. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

              The only way I can keep my knees together while sitting in a chair is if I splay my ANKLES out. Who wants to be knock-kneed all day?

        2. Jesmlet*

          One leg crossed over the other always works for me. It’s how I sit most of the time regardless of what I’m wearing. I’m with you on this.

            1. Jesmlet*

              Yeesh, how tall is your chair/how low is your desk?? Point taken, I guess I’ve been lucky with my office furniture thus far.

              1. Competent Commenter*

                It sounds bad but actually I have a great setup. My desk like pretty much all desks is too high for me to ergonomically mouse and keyboard on. Keyboard trays can also be hard to mouse on. So I received a small table on wheels that sits under my desk. I roll it out as far as I need to and it has my keyboard and mouse on it. The legs are adjustable in height so I have it just right. That gives me about two inches clearance from the top of my thighs to the bottom of that table.

              2. sap*

                Yeah, for most body types, if your keyboard is at the ergonomically optimal position for your shoulders and elbows, you’d have to have a razor thin desk/no keyboard tray to cross the legs above the knee and not be knocking against your desk/keyboard tray. I have really bad arm joint problems, and I frequently bruised my thighs when I had to readjust my position at all because it would quickly become incapacitatingly painful for me to have my arms at even a slightly smaller angle. Now I have to work from a special chair due to an issue with my legs as well so I don’t have that problem anymore, but I would have had to basically show up to work zonked on painkillers if I’d needed to cross my legs in that setup.

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              Nor can I. And if I could, my back and/or hips would be in a lot of pain. But, I guess if it always works for Jesmlet, it always works for me, so maybe I only *think* I’m in pain.

              1. Jesmlet*

                Well that’s a little obnoxious. I never said it works for everyone and my point was that most women don’t sit the same in pants as they do in shorter dresses and skirts.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  It’s also a little obnoxious that so many people in this thread are basically taking the “I do XYZ when wearing a skirt, I don’t see why this is a problem” approach, you among them. Rusty’s response may not have been the kindest one possible, but I sympathize with the frustration that prompted it.

                2. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

                  I most definitely not classify a to-the-knee garment as “shorter dresses and skirts”.
                  Shorter than WHAT? Amish wear? Maxi skirts?

            3. Middle School Teacher*

              I can’t either. There’s a drawer in the way and I always always hang my knees on it. (If anyone was wondering if there is such a desk too short for someone who’s 5’2”, there is. It’s in my classroom.)

              Plus sitting with your legs crossed all day is actually not super good for your posture. I’m so happy my desk has boards on three sides.

            5. Jadelyn*

              I can’t either – and in fact I just kicked the crap out of the ~~modesty panel~~ on my desk trying to do so, just to check if I could. I’m tall with long legs, my desk is short(ish), my chair has to be up quite high for my legs to be comfortable, I can’t even have a keyboard tray under my desk because it hits my thighs and I’d have to scoot my chair way back to be able to use it. Crossing my legs is something I can only do when I’m spun away from my desk to talk to someone.

            6. ClownBaby*

              Same. I can’t cross my legs unless the bottom leg is completely stretched out. Hurray for being nearly a foot taller than the average height for women! Leg crossing under my desk is not an option. I’m also quite chicken-legged, so even flat footed with my knees together, my thighs don’t touch so with the -right- angle, it’s an easy view to the bits.

              I don’t know what I’d do without my desks modesty panel. I never knew that was what it was called until this post. I always thought it was just to camouflage any wires that run under my desk.

          2. Observer*

            Others have already pointed out that this is not compatible with a lot of desks. I’ll also point out that it is also not compatible with good health for most people. This seating posture will mess with a lot of people’s backs, hips and circulation.

          3. Annie Moose*

            One leg crossed over the other in a narrow skirt means it’s going to end up significantly shorter than without crossing your legs.

        3. Competent Commenter*

          Gotta disagree. I could not sit like that all day. My physical therapist and work ergonomic consultant would have my back in this argument, so to speak. Everyone’s body is different. And your body today isn’t the same as your body in 10, 20 or 30 years either. Which is why I can no longer use a regular mouse and have to have an ergonomic consultant. Please don’t assume that what’s comfortable for you with your length of leg and your body type is going to be comfortable for others. I’m willing to grant that somehow you could sit like that all day even though that sounds crazy but please grant that I absolutely cannot.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            Please don’t assume that what’s comfortable for you with your length of leg and your body type is going to be comfortable for others.

            No kidding. The arrogance of “this isn’t a problem for you because it isn’t a problem for me” is really thick today.

        4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          This really isn’t a reasonable “solution” to the problem. It’s not fair to impose what works for your body on everyone else. And I do think it’s meaningful to bring up the fact that women’s bodies are policed in offices more than men’s—why should we have to even worry about upskirt problems when the company could use the old desks or come up with a modesty-board-like solution? (Especially since modesty boards are widespread and a common feature for most office furniture.)

          For example, I have persistent low-back problems, and I’m the average height for a woman. By the time I jack up my seat high enough to be in an ergonomically neutral position relative to my desk/keyboard, I often can’t cross my legs without creating other body posture problems. If I sit properly (feet on the floor), I should not be doing so with ankles crossed or even feet/knees together (my doc wants me to sit with knees shoulder-length apart, which creates a definite upskirt situation). All my skirts/dresses are “modest” by a conservative offices standards, but they’re not long enough to block the “view” if I’m seated neutrally. And because of the region in which I practice, pants are not an option—I’ve been denied entry into court because we have a grand-old-sexist judge who won’t allow you to appear if you’re wearing a pantsuit.

          I’ve already borne the burden and cost of accommodating my ridiculous furniture and profession. Why should I also have to risk crippling myself when there’s an alternate solution available that puts the burden on the right entity (the employer)?

          1. sap*

            Can I just commiserate with you for a second about the antipantsuit judges? When I complain about this to non-lawyers, they’re always like “you’re a lawyer, you know that’s not really legal, why don’t you do something about that?” And it’s futile to try to explain how much NOT a solution that is, because people assume that you could somehow avoid that judge taking it out on you/all of your future clients in discretionary rulings, or that somehow your clients will be totally fine with you litigating a personal issue with your judge during their case. Ghhhhfjf.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              People truly underestimate the power judges have in these situations. Everyone knows the judges who are blatantly (and unlawfully) sexist and channel that sexism by humiliating women about their professional attire. But we all also know that those judges hold grudges and will penalize our clients if we (attorneys) file a grievance.

              But I feel the same way about it that I did about Kozinski—why aren’t the other judges, who ostensibly are in an equal position of power, making complaints or leaning on their colleague(s)?

        5. Observer*

          Nope. There are far more sensible way to make sure that people’s groins are not exposed that requiring women to alter the way they sit for hours at a time.

          The idea that women should all have to change the way they dress – which not only has a financial cost, but also a cost in how women are seen in the office – and the way they sit for their entire workday just because someone won’t get STANDARD office furniture is ridiculous. When it’s in an office layout that has an unusually problematic set up that’s even more ridiculous.

        6. Ceiswyn*

          Knees together is so uncomfortable for me that I would be in agony before midday.

          So my employer could require me to buy a new wardrobe, to sit in ways that cause damage to my muscles and joints… or my employer could provide a g-d modest board, seeing as it’s their screwup in the first place.

    9. Birch*

      Yes. Does OP never have to sit somewhere that’s not at their personal desk? Are there no meeting rooms with those skinny tables arranged in a circle? What about at lunch? Cafe tables don’t have modesty boards. I wear skirts and dresses almost exclusively and it’s never even crossed my mind. IMO if my wardrobe doesn’t work with the furniture, it’s not the furniture that needs changing. I guess the problem here is that people are actually bending down in front of the desk to plug stuff in, but surely that’s more distracting in other ways? Why are the desks arranged in a way that forces people to use floor plugs that are clearly in someone else’s desk space? If they’re just in the middle of the room, why are people looking up across the room when plugging things in? As a petite woman, I totally get this issue of desks and chairs being designed for men, but I also think it doesn’t make sense that this is the only place OP is encountering the problem, and I think that that moving the desks or rearranging the plug areas (maybe an extension cord or a surge protector with lots of plugs on a small table so no one has to bend down?) would be a better solution. I also just really hate the idea of “modesty boards” in general, as if women’s lower bodies need extra special protection from those men who can’t control themselves. Everyone just needs to be adults and realize that sometimes wardrobes aren’t perfect for every situation.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        It’s not about women so much as people who wear skirts – who tend to be women.

        In general I think cafe and meeting room tables are – at least in my experience – a bit wider than the average desk, so they aren’t necessarily comparable.

        1. Mookie*

          Yep, it makes sense that this is where the LW experiences this issue, because she probably spends a good chunk of her public life at work, and her office clothes may differ from her off-duty wardrobe. I don’t really need to concentrate on eating my sandwich on a park bench for a few minutes; however, having to sit in a regimental way for hours at a work would hurt my productivity. As someone who grew up wearing skirts and dresses off and on, I’m pretty well-versed in how to avoid flashing my underwear at somebody and I’d guess the LW and her colleagues are, as well. When equipment interferes with that function for a lot of people, it’s a problem that needs a systemic solution, not an opportunity for people to re-learn normal human behavior or accommodate a seating issue that can be fixed.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Or to be lectured about how they need to stop being so sensitive and maybe should just wear maxi skirts or sit with their ankles crossed all day.

            3. Allison*

              But but but women who are exceptionally, effortlessly ladylike have a moral obligation to shame women who fall short of such a goal! The pearls must be clutched, for the sake of decency!

              1. Allison*

                For real though, the idea that the only women who need modesty panels are those who cannot be modest themselves is a bit troubling.

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  As well as the idea that if someone sees up your skirt, it’s not a problem if you’re wearing spanx. Or that you care whether those people who can see up your skirt are offended.

                2. Matilda Jefferies*

                  Seriously. The level of judgement towards the OP in this thread is pretty astounding, frankly. Can’t we just take her at her word when she says it’s a problem, without resorting to shaming her and her colleagues about the length of their skirts?

                3. Allison*

                  Especially when we don’t know how long their skirts actually are. Seriously, it’s not like we’re looking at a real picture here, people are essentially saying “if this is a problem for you, your skirt is definitely too short.”

                1. OP2*

                  Amazingly, I manage to navigate public transport daily, eat lunch in public without showing my upskirt, usually because I am aware of how I am sitting, and, for those times, adjust my posture to protect myself.

                  At work, at a desk, working all day, I don’t want to feel like I have to be hyper aware of my posture ALL DAY! I can’t cross my legs because I don’t have the room but I know I couldn’t sit like that all day as I’d probably get heat rash and a yeast infection along with back problems

            5. Gingerblue*

              But I just need more information to decide if this is actually a problem for all those women telling me it’s a problem!

              1. Allison*

                Right? Women lie and exaggerate things all the time, they don’t have logical or intelligent thought processes, so it’s important to interrogate them every time they claim anything to be true, so that one can make a more logical assessment of the situation.

                G’day, M’lady *tip*

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  Right? Women lie and exaggerate things all the time, they don’t have logical or intelligent thought processes

                  So true. It obviously never occurred to the OP that she should simply keep her legs locked together. Silly woman.

            6. Pontoon Pirate*

              Gah, yes. These clothing patrol/morality brigade comments are infuriating. The OP is telling us this is a problem – why are so many people spending so much G-D time telling her it’s not?

                1. sap*

                  There is a difference between showing your work when answering “is this thing I’m worried about going to come across as out of touch at the office” affirmatively by explaining to the LW why their concern is unfounded and telling people that the specific thing they say is happening in their office isn’t happening.

                  We didn’t ask the LW who didn’t want to use Uber whether they were actually scared of Uber or whether their employer actually made them use Ubers because that isn’t typical.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  That was also different because the OP asked Alison if use of AirBnB/Lyft is a new business norm or if others shared her concerns about those services, and Alison turned it over to readers. OP#2 has not asked the readers whether the issue she and her officemates are facing is valid or widespread in other offices. She’s asked how to get her thick-skulled boss-man to understand that the current setup does not work.

      2. MK*

        It’s one thing to have to be careful of how you sit for less than an hour at a cafe, or a couple of hours at a meeting or even a couple of days, if you are attending a conference or something, since these are occassions when you are more “on” anyway. It’s another to have to modify your wardrobe and be aware of your posture constantly, every single minute of your workday, while also focusing on your work.

        There are many cases where this isn’t an issue, if the desk if facing (or is close to) a wall, if the desks are back-to-back to eachother, if the desks are very wide, if there are cublicles, even if the desks are reasonably close together or there are other objects (plants, etc) that the visibility is mostly blocked. But is an open-space office it can be; if the OP says that people walking by might be able to see under the desks, it certainly is.

        Also, I think it makes a difference that this is a new development for this workplace. If the OP started a new job recently and just found out that the desks there have no panels, I wouldn’t advice her to demand that the office furniture be replaced; as a new employee, she would have to find a way to deal with it. But in this case, whoever ordered the desks messed up and they should try to find a solution.

        In any case, I think this is a danger of ordering without thinking practically: in furniture stores and photos, desks without panels look better, more sleek, modern and minimalist, while the ones with panels look heavy and bulky. But in practice, people are going to put things under their desks, they will drop stuff and forget to pick them up, they will mangle the wires they use for their devices, they will cross their legs in ways that aren’t recommended by posture books, and generally commit a multitude of “faux-paux” that panels would hide; so an office with panelless desks ends up looking messier.

      3. Emi.*

        > “modesty boards” in general, as if women’s lower bodies need extra special protection from those men who can’t control themselves

        That’s a red herring. Most women don’t want our underwear to be visible to others (especially not at work!), regardless of men and their self-control. My underwear is private and none of anyone else’s business, and I’d like to keep it that way—even if all my colleagues are women.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think most men want to show their underwear off to their colleagues, either, it’s just less of a possibility given men’s typical dress.

        2. SarahTheEntwife*

          +1 yes! Honestly one reason I don’t wear shorter skirts is that I’ve never learned how to sit in them and don’t really feel like making the effort to learn. I don’t worry that my male colleagues will ogle me; I worry that neither of us wants them to have to have the “erm…you’re kinda flashing the office in that outfit ” conversation.

          1. sap*

            I am bad at sitting at skirts, and the only people who have ever said something to me are other women–and I changed my practice of which skirts I’ll sit in which ways in not because I cared if people saw my underwear or was concerned that boys might be titillated by my underwear, but because girls (I was like 12) told me they didn’t want to see my underwear, and I thought that was reasonable.

        3. Turquoisecow*

          +1

          I wouldn’t want to flash my undies to a group of women, either. It has nothing to do with “control.”

      4. Justme, The OG*

        I sit at a cafe table for maybe one hour. I sit at my desk for 8+. There’s a huge difference there.

      5. Rusty Shackelford*

        I also just really hate the idea of “modesty boards” in general, as if women’s lower bodies need extra special protection from those men who can’t control themselves.

        This is a straw man argument (or maybe a red herring?) that’s offensive to both men and women.

      6. Anna*

        Even the idea that “everyone just needs to be adults, etc.” is about how the OP needs to be an “adult” and get over how their wardrobe isn’t perfect with the unwritten part being “so get over it.” Perhaps you don’t agree with the modesty board, but you seem just fine putting all the weight on the OP to get over it and stop being so damned sensitive.

    10. also confused*

      Now I’ve had two replies eaten by IE *sigh* Let’s see if this super old version of FF works.

      In none of my companies we’ve ever had modesty boards and I was unaware of their existence even!

      When the outlet is in a floor tank I would assume to be looking at the floor, and if it’s beneath my desk and requires acrobatics, then I’m still focused on it and not purposefully looking up other people’s skirts.

      I am a woman who wears skirts and dresses, but I also assume the best of my colleagues. There is nothing inherently indecent about underwear or anyone seeing it and I have no problem if it’s a situation where “the eye wanders past” as opposed to “I stare at your white cotton knickers because I’m turned on by them” (and the latter would the starer’s problem anyway). As I said, I assume the best of my colleagues and that they a) don’t purposefully keep staring if they catch a glimpse and b) that they don’t take pictures.

      (If you’re going commando at work, that is a whole different issue, but I wouldn’t recommend that.)

      (On a side note, for people who draw their leg/knee up on the chair to sit in it, go ahead! But please take off your shoes, because there is nothing worse or more unhygienic than street shoes on the upholstery. If for whatever reason I have to sit on your chair, I don’t want to sit my butt down in the dirt from outside.)

      But! All of this might be a cultural thing. I can say that in all of my companies so far as well as the academic setting I was working in before, this request would be wildly out of place and would not be heeded. You would also probably get a bit of a reputation of being a bit extra. (In workplaces where female bosses are common and ethnicities and religions are very mixed.)

      1. Bette*

        Meh. It’s *my* office chair. I’m not going to take off my shoes when sitting on a foot on the off chance that *you* might sit in my chair. There are definitely worse and more unhygienic things than street shoes on upholstery. Every time you touch a doorknob, for example. Ultimately you can only control your own work space, not that of others.

      2. Turquoisecow*

        If you’re wearing pants or a skirt, why is it unhygienic for my shoe to touch the chair? It’s not like you’re touching the chair with your bare skin. I get the desire for sanitary environments, but I think seats are taking it a little too far.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Maybe not unhygienic, but shoes usually have dirt on them. I probably wouldn’t want it on my clothing. Most people don’t check the bottom of their shoes unless they step in something smelly.

          1. sap*

            I have a sweating condition, and it is much less hygenic to put my bare or socked feet on upholstery, because it will become wet upholstery. Obviously, my feet should stay off of other people’s chairs either with or without shoes.

            But should my shoes be on or off when I’m sitting at my desk on top of my feet, just in case you need to borrow my chair?

          2. sap*

            This probably came across wrong, but my point is that some people actually find it much grosser to sit somewhere where unshod feet should be (and some people have really smelly feet!)–so I think probably nobody should be policing whether it’s cleaner for their coworkers to keep their shoes on or off in this context, since that actually really does vary a lot. Personally, I would *absolutely never* take my shoes off at work in a way that my coworkers would see, and I think taking your shoes off at work is a bit unprofessional, so I disagree with your premise that it’s a better practice to take them off even without a sweating condition.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              That wasn’t a premise and I wasn’t policing anyone. I was answering Turquoise Cow’s question about why some folks might think it’s unhygienic to put your shod feet on the chair. I’ve looked at my shoe before and seen mud/dirt I didn’t notice.

              It’s not a big deal–just check your shoe first.

      1. London Bookworm*

        Modesty boards are also the sort of thing that one doesn’t tend to notice. I’d be willing to bet that a handful of the people saying they’ve never had them have, in fact, had them. Most professional office furniture comes with some version of a modesty board.

        I only learned what they were during my second job, where I said we didn’t have them. Then went in on Monday to see that, we did, in fact, have modesty boards on all the desks. I’d just never registered the little boards on all the desks, particularly because our open-floor seating plan meant that the desks were mostly back-to-back, so you’d only notice it if you were on the floor plugging something in.

        1. Mookie*

          I agree, I never consciously recognized what they were for.

          I was actually referring to Huh extrapolating from their own experiences and not realizing this is a genuine problem for other people who wear skirts and dresses.

          1. Murphy*

            I never realized what it was for either, but now that I know, and based on where my desk is located, I’m super glad I have one!

        2. Purplesaurus*

          I didn’t realize what they were for until this discussion. I just thought that’s how desks were made, and previously resented them because I often crash my feet into them (tall, often keep one leg dancing atop the other).

        3. Allison*

          I’ve definitely taken them for granted, and regardless of how I normally sit or dress, I think I’d be much less comfortable sitting at my desk without one, knowing just how much more mindful I have to be about how my skirt and legs are positioned. I’d probably sit with a blanket over my legs, or attach my own makeshift panel, just for good measure.

        4. Natalie*

          I have a portable one under my desk that is both a privacy panel *and* a space heater. It’s basically the greatest office invention I’ve learned of ever.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            OMG this makes me super jealous! This sounds like the most amazing office gadget!

            1. Natalie*

              I have literally never seen one before. But, everything in my office seems to have come from a time machine from the 80s, so that could be why.

        5. LBK*

          Yeah, I’ve always assumed those were structural – I didn’t realize they served the purpose of covering up the person’s lower half (or if it did, that that was an intentional part of their usage and not just icing on top of the structural cake).

    12. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Well, wouldn’t you just rather have a modesty panel on your desk? Then you wouldn’t have to make sure your skirts are long enough. Or wear specific tights or nylons. Or make sure you are sitting with your ankles crossed.

      I’m not sure why you and others are so surprised by the idea of a modesty panel. You say it’s literally never been an issue for you. But you *are* addressing the modesty/comfort issue – just via clothing instead of desk design.

      1. London Bookworm*

        I’m really surprised by the pushback on this. Modesty boards are hardly an expensive or onerous piece of furniture, and it seems like a fairly straightforward way for the company to make sure people are comfortable.

          1. Not Today Satan*

            Yeah. I consider “modesty boards” to not really be a thing, and that the issue here is that the desks are missing a wall/panel. It’s not for dainty ladies, it’s a standard part of a desk. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an office desk that didn’t have a front panel. Are these people working on card tables or something? It’s absurd.

            1. cataloger*

              Same! I’d never considered that part of the desk to have a name, but rather to be a defining feature of a desk (and if it doesn’t have that, it’s a table).

            1. MechanicalPencil*

              This! And that I’ve kicked off my shoes, have a blanket in my lap and am sitting in a way that is less than professional (half lotus, one foot curled under/other leg on chair with knee up…). I love those front panels, whatever their name.

              1. Elizabeth H.*

                High five for sitting in half lotus in office chairs. It’s my favorite sitting position in a chair. Or pretty much anywhere.

            2. Tiny Soprano*

              The “hiding Joe from IT’s grotty gym bag and collection of half-finished bubble teas” panel…

          3. Natalie*

            I’ve heard them called a “privacy panel”. I don’t really love that either but it’s a little better than “modesty” to my ears.

        2. Birch*

          It’s the name, the fact that this isn’t a problem anywhere else out in the world, and that the real problem is that people are bending down right next to other people’s desks in order to use plugs. If the design of the whole room is such that it’s that easy to see up people’s skirts, something else is very wrong and IMO it seems weird to be fixing the problem by installing extra bits to furniture in order to block the upskirt view. Why are the plugs on the floor in front of OP’s desk? Disregarding the upskirt issue completely, it has to be distracting for people to be clambering around down there! This is sort of like someone keeping files in a cupboard right above an employee’s head and then the employee requesting a screen to keep people from looking down her shirt. Don’t keep the files there!

          I also want to point out the huge amount of skirts out there made of materials that flow between your legs when you sit down so there’s nothing to look at. It seems like a really specific type of short, tight pencil skirt that’s being discussed here, which is why a lot of people who wear skirts are confused that this is a problem. I get that those types of skirts are still the standard of “professional” dress in some fields/offices, but OP says their office dress code is “smart/casual,” so it seems that doesn’t apply here.

          1. MK*

            I don’t get what you mean by “this isn’t a problem anywhere else out in the world”, or on what you base such a pronouncement. It’s true that this isn’t a problem in a significant number of workplaces (see my comment above), and also in ones that aren’t open-plan (it’s rarely an issue if you have your own office or share with a couple of people) or that use other type of office furniture. like stands. But the majority of standard office desks do have panels, if only because they have drawers attached (I have rarely seen a desk with drawers and without a panel).

            Also, most professional skirts are very much not the kind that flow between your legs when you sit down; that only happens with pleated and clos skirts that are not what most people associate with a woman’s suit, which usually has a tube skirt that is neither tight or short, but certainly doesn’t flow between your legs when you sit.

            In any case, I don’t think the actual issue is if people can see your underware. I mostly wear trousers, but I feel more comfortable with a panel, and I think the office presents a more professional appearence with such desks.

            1. Julia*

              Yeah, my Japanese university has panels at the front of all desks even in classrooms, and my last workplace in Europe had them as well.

          2. London Bookworm*

            It’s hat’s a fair point that the room seems to be oddly designed. I’ve never worked anywhere where adjusting the plugs would mean seeing under lots of desks (maybe my immediate neighbour).

            However, if the company is going to design their rooms that way, it’s reasonable for them to then accommodate this concern. Frankly, even if I were in pants (and I love my pencil skirts, even in ‘casual’ offices) I still would prefer to not be in OP’s situation.

          3. Laura*

            It’s not true that this isn’t a problem anywhere else in the world! I used to work in Southeast Asia and was told by my local colleagues that every single meeting room absolutely must have tablecloths on the tables or panels on the back of them because otherwise women cannot sit there. Every desk I saw in both of the two countries I worked in there had modesty panels. It’s not an issue because it’s become standard, not because women are sitting in a special way.

            Also, keep in mind that it’s not just “tight pencil skirts” that are an issue. Knee-length A-line skirts cause this problem for me, as does anything that’s not at least mid-calf length and flowy, most of which are made of fabric that would be inappropriate in my current office, as well as knee-length dresses that are not tight-fitting like the sweater dress I’m currently wearing.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Uh, please come visit me in rural Kenya where people where full-length skirts, and they still have modesty boards. Or in India. Or literally any of a number of countries.

            You can wear a perfectly normal/professional, knee-length (or just below the knee) pencil skirt and it will not be adequately flowy to block the view of your underwear if you’re sitting neutrally. Please see, e.g., every single “conservative” skirt or dress-suit I own for the stodgy practice of law, which is plenty conservative and backwards about skirt length, etc.

            I really don’t understand why people are litigating clothing choice, posture, etc., and making general pronouncements about how this “isn’t an issue” for most of the world when there’s no evidence to support that position.

          5. Rusty Shackelford*

            the fact that this isn’t a problem anywhere else out in the world

            How do you know what part of the world the OP is in? Or are you saying it’s not even a problem in her part of the world?

          6. ket*

            What do you mean this isn’t a problem anywhere else in the world? Classrooms at colleges and universities put up a board there when it’s a lecture hall where the lecturer would otherwise be forced to politely avoid looking at boys scratching their bits. Tables often have tablecloths which amazingly serve the same purpose in a larger room where the wideness of the table isn’t sufficient to do it. Well-designed staircases take this into account. You just don’t notice it because good design takes into account the people who are using the stuff.

          7. Browser*

            It’s not an extra bit of furniture. It is literally part of a standard desk and has been so for decades. Centuries, even.

          8. Kate 2*

            I think OP specifically mentioned you can see up skirts even standing. I’ll lose my place in the comments if I scroll back up though, so maybe I’m wrong.

        3. Turkletina*

          Yep. The OP wrote in with a problem, and half the commenters are like “but this isn’t actually a problem!” It’s a problem for OP (which is why she wrote in!) and I don’t see why it’s so difficult to take her at her word that it’s a problem.

            2. essEss*

              LOL… agreed. It’s like someone saying the their head is throbbing and they ask someone for an aspirin and the person with the medication says “well, MY head doesn’t hurt so you don’t need one.”

              2. Hey Anonny-Nonny*

                “Well, you wouldn’t have a headache if you didn’t go out drinking on work nights! I never drink, so I never get headaches. I don’t see why you’d need aspirin if you don’t drink, I never need them.”

                (Just thought I’d add that weird tinge of moral judgement that’s somehow part of this desk discussion)

                1. essEss*

                  oooh… AND that they can solve the headache problem themselves if they keep their head at a 27.3 degree angle with the finger pressing on a specific point on the temple. And remember to retain that exact position for the entire 9-hour work day (including while typing and eating lunch). Hahaha…..

          2. Gingerblue*

            Well, you know. Those hussies with their pencil skirts and their phone chargers. Why would anyone actually believe them about anything?

            This entire thread makes me feel like I woke up in the 1950s.

                1. SS Express*

                  OP, I’m really sorry that you’ve received this response to a perfectly reasonable question! It’s a horrible feeling for me just as a reader to see that so many people think I shouldn’t feel entitled to be as comfortable or as focused on my work as male colleagues – I imagine reading these comments would be kind of rough for you. I hope you can focus on the number of people who *do* understand why this is a problem and support you in looking for a solution, because you absolutely deserve one. Good luck!

        4. Jesmlet*

          My problem with all this discussion on modesty boards is that my read of the letter gave me the impression that they were not an option, and that the only option was buying entirely new desks. It’s also too bad that we don’t have a picture of the office because I’m having a really hard time understanding this plug issue.

            1. Jesmlet*

              Please see where I said “understanding” rather than “believing”. I believe that OP has an issue. I wish I could understand it better because it’s easier to give useful solutions when you fully understand the problem. Is the plug right in front of OP’s desk? Is it someone else’s plug from across the room that they’d have to bend down to reach? One vs the other would change what points she can bring to the manager’s attention.

              1. Browser*

                The only point she needs to bring to the manager’s attention is “Our old desks had modesty boards and these new ones do not. Can we switch back to the old desks or is there a panel that can be installed on the new ones?”

                As for the plugs, things have to plug in somewhere. If the desk is not against a wall, there will be a plug in the floor. It’s not rocket science to figure that out.

                1. Jesmlet*

                  If that worked, then OP wouldn’t have said this: “The manager is not taking this seriously as a genuine concern of his staff”

                  Should she need to have a detailed reason why things should change? No. But clearly her manager needs something more than “hey, this doesn’t work for us.”

                2. OP2*

                  Big open plan office, only way to power PCs, phones etc is in power sockets in the floor from points under every set of desks

              2. many bells down*

                Everyone’s outlets are on the floor under their individual desks. If you need to plug something in, you have to get down on your hands and knees and crawl under the desk. From that position, you are at eye level with everyone else’s knees, so if you look up, you can, as Carrie Fisher said of her metal bikini, “see all the way to Florida.”

    13. neverjaunty*

      “My experience is way different than the OP’s and she should be getting side-eye” maybe not the most helpful response?

      1. Clare*

        Yes I’m really annoyed by these responses. Let’s stop putting on the “cool girl” persona in order to make the OP feel ridiculous when her concerns are perfectly reasonable for the vast majority of women.

      2. Laura*

        Exactly!!!! These kinds of comments frustrate me like crazy! It feels to me like a version of slut shaming women just for wearing normal clothes and not wanting to have to sit with their legs crossed or knees together at all times.

        1. Jesca*

          What shocks me is how much effort people are putting in to their daily lives just to accommodate an”open desk” that can literally be corrected by choosing appropriate furniture. I would really like to point out some of these acts: sit consciously upright, consciously sit with your legs closed, ensure when by dresses or skirts (or even pants) that it doesn’t look to revealing or odd when you sit in a chair, consciously advert your eyes every time you walk through the office (OP says this is an issue as well), never look up when you have to get down under your desk, and so on and so forth.

          The other option: buy clothing that follows your dress code (skirts around the knee area) and sit at your desk and work.

          See? It is actually hilarious how much this puts women at a disadvantage in the work place and how absolutely adamant people are on defending it. All the above advice is great if the OP finds she has no choice, but telling the OP she is absurd in bringing it up? I suggest re-reading what I wrote above and then tell me what actually sounds more absurd just to sit at a desk and work!

          4. Reba*

            Yes, and this is an example of a systemic problem being made into a [woman’s] personal responsibility to solve!

            Now, it is true that a lot of learned behaviors to accommodate issues we face in the world become second nature, so you can say how “easy” it is to “just” [wear special types of undergarments that you know to shop for, hold your body in a certain way at all times, or on a more serious note, look out for environmental cues that signal your relative safety, etc etc. etc.]

            It’s worth noticing once in a while how much work that all is, and how it’s work that is often invisible because it’s more vulnerable people that have to do it.

            1. Oranges*

              The “woman tax”. I don’t remember where I heard it but I think it’s the perfect descriptor for this type of BS.

            2. OP2*

              Thank you! Amazing how much effort certain groups have to put in to accommodate the way things have been set up. It’s exhausting

          6. finderskeepers*

            I’d just like to point out that in summer, and especially in very hot areas, a woman being able to wear a knee length skirt for comfort, whereas a man must still wear ankle length pants.

            So a dress code that doesn’t allow men to wear shorts in the summer puts them at a comfort disadvantage, and possibly a reason why the AC runs cold

            1. Pontoon Pirate*

              I mean this kindly, but this isn’t the forum to re-litigate the men’s vs. women’s professional clothing debate. It’s “whataboutism” that is going to take the conversation at hand nowhere.

                2. SoCalHR*

                  So you’re saying that if men were allowed to wear skirts then there wouldn’t be an issue with not having modesty panels because the (likely) man who ordered the panel-less desks would have thought to include them because he sometimes wears a skirt to work and doesn’t (presumably) want his junk exposed at the workplace, right?

            2. Jesca*

              I would like to point out that there have been extensive studies on the constrictiveness of women’s clothing used in an attempt to keep them passive throughout modern times and throughout history, but that too would be really derailing as well.

              (FYI shorts are not in the same realm of revealing as skirts are for obvious reasons. This isn’t some huge social argument either. If you want to wear shorts, petition your job. But don’t run around screaming it every time skirt etiquette is brought up as some comparison. There are still many industries where skirts and dresses are required for women.)

              1. Oranges*

                You mean the constant policing and unequal social payments/punishments are a systematic form of abuse? I am shocked. Shocked I tells ya.

                Also I wonder how/why this particular method of abuse has been used so frequently. I assume it’s because it works but why does it work. Anything you can point me to on that or things I can type into a search engine that might give me a good shot at finding what I’m actually looking for?

            3. sap*

              In my opinion men should be free to wear a pencil skirt in the summer if they choose to, and it would be great if there were formal office appropriate shorts for both men AND women, but since LW isn’t a man who wrote in about wanting to wear a pencil skirt in the summer, I’m going to comment on appropriate desks instead.

            5. SS Express*

              Yep, you’re right, men can be disadvantaged by the patriarchy too, not only in this way but also in many others which I won’t mention because they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    14. Call me St. Vincent*

      I encourage everyone reading this subthread to scroll down the page to read the comment from Triplestep who is an office furniture designer! It was very informative about the issue of modesty panels in general and how office furniture is designed from a designer’s perspective. The below quote is only a short section of the very good comment, but it applies here very well.

      “To those folks here saying they do not have modesty panels, I am skeptical. The way systems furniture is designed now, modesty panels are often a very integral part of the design, helping to keep the desk stable (just like the stretcher bar or apron on your kitchen table) and holding channels to hide wiring.”

    15. Lady Phoenix*

      So maybe all we he women should wear Burkas so as they cover everything up. Ecause it is just too cumbersome to mak employees work comfortably and them wimmenz are temptresses anyways.

      That is sarcasm BTW

    16. Anononon*

      I’m admittedly very skeptical that you’ve never seen a desk with a modesty board. I just google imaged “office desk” and the majority of the pictures had them.

      I really think the name of the design feature is throwing people off. It does sound very hand-wringing.

      2. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah, I’ve never heard the name before, but I’m not sure I’ve seen any desks without them.

      3. not sharing my user name on this one!!*

        I work at a state agency which have a wrap around counter with a single pole holding up the one end that is open to the door way, opposite a mostly glassed in conference room.. believe you me, I take care of how I sit when that room is in use.

        It’s about as annoying as many of the comments in this thread (which have me ~Ragey~ this morning)

        For those that say no desks are made this way- if I did this correctly, my name will link to a picture of mine. I keep a chair pushed up against the opposite side of the counter for a bit of privacy. I wear dresses almost every day because pants don’t fit me well.

    17. Morag*

      Actually, they’re not “special” desks, they’re the standard. Think of it as a “privacy panel” not a “modesty” panel and it makes more sense. It’s ridiculous to have an open desk for anyone.

      The term modesty panel dates from the time when men (ie bosses) in offices had real desks that were obviously closed off in front, but women (ie secretaries & receptionists) had smaller triangular jury-rigged setupss that were physically lower and and also had a typing return on the side to hold your IBM Selectric. If your desk was outward facing then you needed the modesty panel to get the same privacy as the men had with their actual real closed in desks. If your desk was against the wall, your company could cheap out (which is what this company is doing now in 2018) and omit closing in the front of your desk.

      Everybody deserves a closed in real desk, male or female.

    18. Thursday Next*

      I think it’s okay for people to care about this issue. (Also okay not to care, FWIW.) I don’t think it’s okay to criticize the LW for caring about it.

      1. sap*

        I’m one of those hussies who doesn’t pay a lot of attention to how I sit in a skirt (beyond “I am not manspreading/sitting crisscrossed applesauced in it, and if I do I will use a blanket) because I really don’t think it’s my problem if people want to peer up it–and I know full well that when sitting comfortably in a suit at a cafe someone could look right up it if they wanted to. But I STILL think this is a problem for LW, because women’s emotional responses to sexism don’t need to be the same as mine to be within the boundaries of healthy, normal behavior.

    19. Karo*

      OTOH, when I’ve been in the OP’s situation I’ve been so uncomfortable, focusing on my posture and how I’m sitting, that I’m not doing quality work. Maybe it’s something you can get used to but it’s also not unreasonable to expect your desk to have something where you’re not flashing literally everyone that walks by.

    20. SignalLost*

      I *do* wear shapewear under my skirts. It holds my tights up. I still don’t want my company to provide an environment where someone can look up my skirt in the normal course of business. It’s not a fear of flashing my genitals, it’s that covered or otherwise, no one’s groin should be featured by the furniture in the office.

    21. Nita*

      Yeah, I’m a little confused too. I mean, I don’t normally have a view of how my skirts look when I’m sitting down, but it seems like if they’re just past the knee they’re already long enough to avoid wardrobe malfunctions? And if they’re shorter, they’re a malfunction hazard when sitting *anywhere,* not just at the bad desk? Maybe I’m missing something though, since a lot of women in OP’s office are complaining…

      1. Natalie*

        Most skirt suits I see are a little above the knee, not past it. Also, I believe both pants and skirts ride up a bit when one sits down, so a just-past-the-knee skirt is not going to be in the same position while sitting.

    22. nnn*

      Can you tell us where you’ve been finding suit-style skirts that are long enough on someone who’s 5’11” recently?? The past few years, all I’ve been able to find are either skirts that are uncomfortably short, or maxi skirts.

      1. Emmie*

        No where really. Banana Republic had some skirts in tall, and that was wonderful. I always look at the inseam to see if it can be tailored. I tailor my dresses, skirts, and most of my pants.

      2. Nita*

        I’ve had pretty good experiences with Sears last time I went skirt shopping (full disclosure, I have not been to one in a couple of years, and am a bit shorter than you).

    23. Temperance*

      I had to put a sign in front of the desk in my last office because I regularly wear skirts and dresses, and don’t want to waste energy on trying to be dainty/proper whatever it is that you are.

    24. Rusty Shackelford*

      I just make sure my skirts are long enough (for me this is to just about my knee and I am 5’11 so finding the right kind of skirts takes some work) and wearing either dark colored tights, or if I wear pantyhose than I wear dark thigh length shorts/shapewear underneath. I also make sure I keep my ankles together/crossed when I sit. It has literally never been an issue for me

      1. I make sure to wear long enough skirts, which takes some work.
      2. I wear dark tights or pantyhose.
      3. If I wear pantyhose, I wear long shorts or shapewear over them.
      4. I sit in a certain way, keeping my ankles together or crossed.

      Somehow, all of this doesn’t add up to “literally never an issue.” To me it looks like a real live actual issue that you’ve put a lot of work into addressing. I mean, you literally said it “takes some work” to find appropriate clothing that you can wear at your desk.

      1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

        I would think everyone would want a privacy panel so that you can discretely rearrange yourself, scratch and itch, shift something that is binding, etc..

        1. a1*

          People do those things at their desk? I was always taught not to do those things in public. Got an itch in your crotch? Go to the bathroom, or just deal with it. You don’t scratch your crotch at your desk. Scratch your arm, sure, but your crotch or butt, no. Need to adjust your bra (more than just move a strap up) or underwear – same thing. I never knew people were doing so many things under their desks. (truly, not being sarcastic)

          1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

            I was thinking more scratching your leg/knee/foot/ankle and lifting your leg or leaning down to do it, shifting position which sometimes means spreading your legs, etc.. Basically with these new desks every fidget, gesture, and motion is visible to everyone walking into the office

          2. HannahS*

            I mean, I wouldn’t dig in and scratch at a desk, but dislodge a wedgie? Definitely. If I waited to go to the bathroom to do that, I’d be running there multiple times a day!

          3. Natalie*

            Sure, why not, if no one can see me? The very air around me isn’t going to be offended that I didn’t go to the bathroom.

            1. a1*

              But unless your desk is in an enclosed office, people can see you. So then you wouldn’t do it at your desk. And if you are alone in an enclosed office, have at it. I was talking about in public, like in cubicle farms or open office plans (or on the bus, or in a lobby, etc).

              1. Natalie*

                YMMV I guess. The open plan offices I’ve seen still have sufficient cubicle walls that your co-workers don’t have a line of sight to your butt. And if they’re standing right next to you, you’ll obviously know it.

          4. Delphine*

            Qhat you were “taught” you were taught as a woman–its the rare man that’s running to the bathroom every time he needs to make an adjustment.

            1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

              & I doubt anyone wants to be in line-of-sight as Fergus adjusts himself throughout theday

    25. Yorick*

      Many women don’t wear tights, pantyhose, or thigh length shapewear under their dresses. And this shouldn’t be required just because the desk doesn’t have a front.

    26. July*

      I am a wearer of skirts who was raised (by an elderly grandparent, obviously) to cross my legs at the ankle when seated, irrespective of what I have on. I’m in my mid-thirties and woke up several months ago with what turned out to be a really persistent pain in the knee of my “bottom” leg. Three doctors later, I learned I was putting weird stress on my legs with my super ladylike ways. I now have to sit at my desk with my feet elevated and hips-width apart. I think it’s really unreasonable to assume that a posture that has the potential to cause physical injury should be a part of women’s daily life in the workplace.

      (That being said, if you’re a person any gender who’s sitting on a stage kindly keep your legs closed. Sprawling looks terrible.)

    27. DMLT*

      Lemme summarize.
      Your office is set up the same way. You list all the many things you do to deal with it, including wearing an extra layer under your skirt and the phrase “takes some work” to find skirts that are acceptable, and then say “it has literally never been an issue for me”
      Yes, it has been an issue. You’re just used to dealing with it. But clearly you have to put effort, time and money into making it work. I hope you can see where taking on all these precautions as a NEW thing could be burdensome.

    29. Lynn*

      I’m a trial lawyer. Courtroom table provide no privacy. So when there are jurors in the room, I have to pay attention to my posture, leg placement, etc. Of course I’m wearing a skirt suit because you never know who will judge me unfairly if wearing pants. Legs covered, but because I’ve got sensitive skin I have to wear cotton tights instead of nylons so I don’t itch until my skin bleeds. And boy do those tights get warm in the summer. That’s in addition to my facial expression, tone of voice, and how I move around the courtroom. It is SO. DARN. EXHAUSTING. for the 6-7 hours a day your in that courtroom. Both mentally and physically. I cannot imagine being required to have a similar level of focus on my physical being when I’m just in my office doing work.

      Men complaint about women getting to wear skirts when they have to wear a suit, but once they’re dressed, men don’t have to concern themselves with runs, a skirt riding up, static cling, etc.

      1. sap*

        It’s funny how men are always complaining that women “get” to wear skirts but don’t ask to wear them themselves. If it looks so much more comfortable to them, why don’t they try it?

        Because it doesn’t actually look more comfortable to them.

    30. Misc*

      “I also make sure I keep my ankles together/crossed when I sit”

      That’s actually really bad for your overall posture. It does bad things to your hips collapsing them inwards constantly and increases the chance of back pain because it refers ss up your spine. While some people will get away with it, it certainly shouldn’t be required.

    31. Amanda*

      It is clearly an issue and we know that because the LW wrote in and told us it is an issue. As a number of people have said above, nothing in the letter indicates that the LW does not know how to dress professionally.

  4. chersy*

    OP #5, you’re very kind to do that! I used to work in a call center handling credit cards and bank transactions, and the verbal abuse I got from frustrated and angry clients can really, really get to you! We would usually get at least a hundred calls a day, and most clients are either angry or indifferent, and no matter how hard we try to pacify them and resolve their concern, some people are just so toxic. Compliments, on the other hand, are quite rare (usually one or two out of a hundred or so calls!). Whenever I get one for doing my job well or even a nice comment on my “smiling” voice, it really makes a whole world of difference! We really appreciate a little thanks or feedback because it makes our day, and lets us know also how we should continue doing things.

    1. Mel*

      Not a call center, but the manager of my favorite lunch place carries gas cards and grocery store gift cards in her pockets for any complements her staff gets. She told us she doesn’t always wait for a customer to tell her something, if she sees it, she will give the gift card on the spot, and if another staff member passes along something positive they both get something (she said it is usually extra break time). But I always made sure I passed along my thanks there, because I knew there was a chance that they could get something. (I mean even a $5-$10 gas card can take a little pressure off a tight budget.)

    2. SusanIvanova*

      OK, y’all have convinced me to do the survey for the insurance company that’s been sitting in my mailbox since Monday. The *last* person I talked to was very helpful. If only it hadn’t taken being transferred to the wrong place 3 times to get to her…

      1. Kara*

        Please be aware that at many companies, anything less than the highest score is considered a failure. So unless you get absolutely terrible service, you should always give the highest rating. It is so disheartening to get a “Very Good” (4 out of 5 at my company) because the customer was obviously happy with you, but it counts against you. These ratings often affect raises and promotions.

        1. Deb B.*

          Where I work surveys customers and asks questions on a scale of 1-10 and the team needs an average score of 92 percent at any given time to be “acceptable”. So, if every customer rated every question a 9 out of 10, that wouldn’t be acceptable. And PLEASE, don’t ding the rep for something beyond their control like company policy, being short staffed, business hours. Rating the rep 5 out of 10 for wait time because you think they will hire more people doesn’t work. Telling the manager that the reps are working very hard and could use more help would be better (That is if the wait was truly too long. Some people just expect not to have to wait, period.)

    3. Djuna*

      +1000.
      I spent a little over ten years of my working life in CS phone jobs, and can vouch for a call with someone like OP#5 turning my day (or my week!) around.
      Also, positive comments on post-call surveys – since these are often used as a performance metric.
      Kindness like that can make a real difference, and its value can’t be overstated.

    4. Traveling Teacher*

      Wow, I’m really shocked to hear just how bad it can get! I’m not surprised that there are so many angry people, I suppose, but *that* many angry people versus kind people already leaves a bad taste in my mouth!

      I always thank the rep I talk with, personally, even if they haven’t been very helpful for me, but now I’ll go the extra mile to do the survey–I saw those as impacting general company metrics, not individuals. It had never occurred to me that that could have an impact for the person on the other end of the line!

      1. Jaintenn*

        My spouse is a supervisor in a call center that provides customer service for a contract company. There seems to be nothing that will have more impact on the individual agent than that post call survey. So, by all means, express your pleasure verbally to the agent and their supervisor, but please do not neglect the survey.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I think that there are multiple reasons for this. People are usually already upset when they call, the callers are talking to strangers who they aren’t likely to need to interact with again, and the callers probably perceive the support people as being fairly powerless.

        I’m always nice to the rep I talk with too. It isn’t their fault that the problem exists, and I like to treat people decently.

    5. On Fire*

      I was having some kind of tech problem with a phone and used the chat function on the cell provider’s website to get help. At the end, I thanked the person who had helped me and told them I hoped their supervisor could see the chat log, because I wanted the supervisor to know that I was very happy and the CSR was great. Anyone know whether chat logs are monitored like calls?

      1. Lisa B*

        I spent 10 years in a call center for major telecommunications, in variety of roles. From the rep side, hearing a compliment can absolutely turn your day around. Most people are calling because they are upset, so getting verbally beat down for 8 hours is a lot to take. (“YOU PEOPLE…..” *shudder*)

        Customer quotes do regularly show up in a rep’s performance review, so YES, send compliments. Compliments also carry more weight than complaints. If a manager takes one angry call about a rep, it’s taken with a huge grain of salt, because often the customer is upset at something the rep can’t do anything about. “I’m sorry the POWER OUTAGE has left you unable to watch your television, and that I can’t control the weather….” “I’m sorry I can’t get a repair technician out within the next 12 hours….” But a COMPLIMENT is usually because of the rep’s direct actions or behavior. Criticisms of a rep don’t often reflect on the review unless it’s a pattern, but a single instance of a great compliment can be included in a formal review.

        Also, chat logs are sometimes reviewed, but they would be randomly selected and monitored for QC purposes just like a call would. So if a rep does 250 customer connections a week, either phone calls or chat logs, maybe one or 2 of them get pulled for a QC and scored. The odds of your contact getting pulled are pretty low.

        Customer service is a very very thankless job. Please, if you can, always give feedback on positive experiences. They make someone’s day. And don’t assume the supervisor will be too busy- a rep will find SOMEONE to listen to your compliment and make sure it gets to their boss- a different supervisor, the floor senior, anybody.

        1. k.k*

          And it’s so rare that a customer will go out of their way to ask for a manager and take the time to make a compliment. Usually the happy customers just go along on their happy way, and only the horrible yelling customers are demanding a manager. So it carries even more weight.

          When I worked in customer service and was on the verge of burn out loosing it, one little compliment could give me fuel to make it through a whole week. It really makes the world of difference.

        2. Changed*

          In my time working in a call centre role focused on taking escalations, I must have spoken to thousands of customers, and before I got the supervisor role it must have been tens of thousands.

          I encountered positive escalations exactly three times, twice where I was the one they wanted to give feedback on and once where I was the manager taking the feedback, and it made my day every time.

          Al that rarity, and this was while working for a company famed for excellent customer service, where I’d regularly get customers being shocked at how quickly and easily we sorted their issue out. (My favourite type of customer is the one who’s used to speaking to power companies and internet providers, and is ready to fight tooth and nail to get what they want. Then you just say “sure thing, I’ve done that now” and it’s like you can hear the air rushing out as they deflate.)

          When you ask to speak to a call centre employee’s manager, it’s probably quite unlikely that you actually will speak to the person directly above them in the org chart, but you’ll definitely speak to someone that’s got a bit of vertical advantage. That person will almost certainly move heaven and earth to get the feedback to the phone-answerer’s actual manager though.

          Definitely don’t neglect the survey though! The stats on that are the only quality-related thing the agent is judged on. The non-quality things are usually calls per hour or handle time, and there’s sometimes a record of how many times they’ve made an exception to policy. If you want one way to quantify how good a call centre is in general, for both staff and customers, it’s how they weigh these things.

    6. Aaron*

      Yeah, this can be a really good thing to do. For example, I know some of the airlines have a corporate rewards program to reward employees who receive positive feedback. As someone who flies a lot, I know that there’s a huge range of customer service with US carriers, from exceptional to miserable, and mostly in between. It feels good to help out those who go above and beyond and show them it’s appreciated, especially because there’s a very good chance the next person that support agent is talking to is going to literally be screaming at them about their cancelled flight/etc.

    7. calonkat*

      OP #5, I second continuing. I always try to take the time to talk to a manager of any place I feel I’ve gotten exceptional customer service (and I count getting my needs fulfilled quickly, efficiently, and with a smile as exceptional these days…) I’ve spoken to managers at fast food, retail stores, and many, many call centers.

      I try to always be polite myself, and I know the person who is on the phone/at the customer service desk is not generally the person who caused my problem. I figure if I’m willing to complain about BAD service, I have an obligation to compliment GOOD service as well. And honestly, I seem to get much more good service than bad :)

    8. SystemsLady*

      I’ve received some very complimentary feedback this way, and once won a quarterly award with a gift card attached to it because of an email sent to my boss. Both bosses and employees appreciate this!

    9. libbeth*

      I have a friend who is a supervisor at a call center and getting those calls is a bright spot for her, too, since she’s more often dealing with correcting or reprimanding. Knowing one of her team members did well, and getting to pass that praise along to them, is pleasant for her as a manager and good for morale overall. So yes, I’d say keep doing it, especially because it makes it more likely that person will get good shifts and all.

    10. ThatGirl*

      I agree. I work in a customer-facing role, we’re not a typical call center and there no bonuses or gift cards or anything for customer ratings, but it’s still nice to hear that we’ve really helped, done a great job, etc and have that passed along to our team lead.

    11. BeepBoop*

      I worked at a call center for a VERY well known cable, internet, wireless provider. While telling managers how great we did is wonderful in the moment and can make you (the rep) feel great, it doesn’t affect our performance review at all. In most cases it honestly comes down to those stupid surveys you do after the interaction, like an online survey or if they call you later to ask how we did. If we got all 5’s – YAY you won’t be in the hot seat, but if you even got just one four – or god forbid anything less than a four- then our quota wasn’t met, you were put on PIP, and your paycheck would be cut in half.

      Side note, always call on Mondays – better access to discounts.

    12. PersephoneUnderground*

      Yes, OP #5, keep doing this! And others, please do this in retail and other customer service jobs as well- it makes a real difference! You’ll earn your place in heaven!

      I’ve made a point of writing an email to management at retail places where I got great service with the name of the person who helped me, and gotten really happy responses. Try to jot down the name of the person (or it might be on your receipt if the person rang you up, or you can give them other receipt info like the transaction number, date, time, and register number, so they can look up who it was) and write a quick email to the corporate division or store email address. They normally only get complaints sent to corporate, a customer taking the time to send positive feedback can make a big difference. If you don’t have time for that, stop by the store’s customer service desk and ask how you can leave positive feedback there for an employee.

    13. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I used to be a customer service manager and I loved it when customers went out of their way to compliment the service they got! Generally if a customer got referred to me, it was because they were upset about something. It was so refreshing to hear about a good experience! And I always made sure to reward the customer service associate. (At the time we had $5 gift cards we could give as service awards plus a pin, funnily enough my associates always seemed more excited about the pin! They’d collect them on their name badges.)

    14. myswtghst*

      Yes, OP #5, please keep doing this! In the call centers I support, customer compliments made to a manager mean at minimum an email to the team to recognize the employee, and often lead to additional (monetary) recognition. It also is just a nice thing to hear when you’re dealing with angry customers and sob stories all day.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      I used to take ads for a shopping paper and I received a few notes from customers praising me for the job I did helping them. It was a little thing, but it made my day. It also made my boss appreciate me more. So by all means, do it! :)

    16. Rocketship*

      Just adding my voice to the chorus of “YES!” in this comment thread. Almost my entire career has been spent in high-burnout thankless jobs like this – food service, retail, call center, etc. – and it’s absolutely true that it’s just a daily barrage of anger and recrimination. Not only that, but the employee in those situations can literally lose their job for being anything other than polite and kind and smiling and helpful in the face of screaming and name-calling. And the times when a customer is being completely unreasonable and the employee tries to set some sort of boundary? A good portion of the time they know the customer is going to ask for a manager, who will just override the employee to shut the customer up. Which has the double effect of making that employee look incompetent and/or difficult, AND teaching this customer that rudeness and anger are the way to get what they want. So… yeah. A little compliment can go a long way.

      My last such job was a call center for an online retailer with an unusual setup that meant deep discounts but extra-long shipping times. The amount of vitriol I received over things completely outside my control on a daily basis was extraordinary. I’ve been called every name in the book and a few new ones besides. I’ve had to take the headset away from my ear so the volume of yelling wouldn’t damage my hearing. And I’ve had to learn how to stay calm through it all and say “I understand, I want to help” etc etc etc.

      There are only two things that made me cry: one was a woman who called up weeping and saying she felt like a monster because the clothes she ordered were too small (to this day I think about her, hope she’s okay, and regret not sending her a link to a suicide help line)… and the time a manager shared a recording with me of glowing praise a customer had passed along about my interaction with them. Ever since then, I always go out of my way to pass along good feedback when warranted (even if the interaction was just good, and not amazing). I even do this in restaurants from time to time – although I always feel bad asking for a manager, because in the restaurant industry it’s even more rare to give good feedback to a manager than in call centers. There’s always a brief moment of panic until I assure them it’s because they did a good job.

      1. SarahKay*

        Seconded to the awfulness of call centres. I’ve been lucky enough to escape them (done retail and restaurants, though) but my sister spend about four months working in one.
        She then moved to become a cell attendant at the local police station and said it was the biggest change in job satisfaction ever.
        The joy of going from a job where you had to remain relentlessly professional and polite and helpful regardless of the unreasonableness of the customer, to one where, in the face of unreasonableness you could tell them to stop, and if that failed you could (and should) just shut the cell door and *walk away*! She said, also, when sober, most of those being locked up were politer than the call-centre customers because she and her co-workers were the ones who could give them a light for their cigarettes. (This was back before smoking indoors in workplaces became illegal throughout the UK).

    17. Charlotte Collins*

      Yes! Let them know either during the call or in writing. It means a lot, and even if there aren’t bonuses involved, it can help the employee at review time or when the management is looking for people to promote.

      I worked in a call center years ago and then trained CSRs for a few years. (We did phone and written correspondence for a government benefit.) A beneficiary once wrote a letter to the company detailing how people had helped him with his issues and included names of everybody who had helped him. Since I had answered a letter from him (too complex to give new trainees), my name was on it, and my manager gave me a copy with my name highlighted.

      I still have the photocopy.

  5. TL -*

    OP1: I’ve been in a similar situation and it’s so very frustrating! I talked to our manager about it, which was very helpful for me because I then could catalogue it as “not my problem” no matter how inept my coworker was. (I also didn’t feel guilty about taking over duties, but that was more the nature of the work; some things were too important to let him mess up.)

    One other thing that helped was I sat him down and said, “I expect you to learn most protocols by observing and taking notes once, doing it once with close supervision, and then doing it a third time with loose supervision (with a reasonable amount of flexibility.) You are not doing that and that is a problem.” He responded that his expectation was to watch at least 4 times, never take notes, and gradually do more as he felt comfortable – so he truly did not understand how far behind he actually was by our standards. So having that conversation was a big eye-opener for both of us.

    You might have a similar conversation with her -“I expected you to reasonably familiar with Word, Google, and Program by X weeks. It’s been Y weeks and you’re not, and I do not have the time to train you more extensively, nor do I have the time to continuously answer questions. If I don’t see an improvement by X/I haven’t seen an improvement, so I am going to bring my concerns to Manager, because I can’t provide the support you need.”

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I think also that one of the frustrations with Jane may be that – like your guy who wanted to never take notes – she isn’t really taking responsibility for the situation. Maybe she thinks it’s better to try to hide the problem than admit she has a major training need, but the passive aggressive huffing and sighing isn’t helping.

      Letter writer, I suggest you give yourself permission to ignore it when Jane sighs and announces that she’s stuck. At the moment, that is working for her as it results in you helping her – but it’s okay not to do it. Aside from talking to her manager as Alison suggests, I think it might also be worth telling her that you have limited capacity to help and that you can talk to her twice a week for 15 minutes (or whatever you can fit in) so she needs to prioritise how she uses that time. And then stick to that, even if it means cutting her off halfway through a question. Maybe ask her to tell you what questions she has and say you have time for three (or whatever you have time for) and she needs to pick.

      And if she tells you again that she doesn’t have time to take those courses, you could point out that you are both spending x hours on this and that you would like her to devote some of that time to doing training instead. If you want to, you could say that these courses might seem daunting but that they’ll help her feel more confident and get more out of any time you do spend helping her.

    2. Jesca*

      Yes, and the question by LW#1 is actually why I love AAM so much. These are things that happen over and over yet once we find ourselves in them, we get stuck in our minds as what we should do! I will come on here and search sometimes when I am stuck on something that then seems so obvious.

      But in a broader stroke, your story and the OPs reminds me of the importance of communication the expectation of the training to the trainee up front with timelines and expectations given. This in the pas has helped reduced the dependency thing that seems to happen with some people once they start. They know where they need to be when given the timeline and expectations and therefore will work on their own enough to get there. Also, it doesn’t come as a shock later to the trainee when you have to let management know training is beginning to lag behind.

      1. Rachel01*

        1. How can I get a coworker to take computer classes?
        Then HR & management needs to evaluate the wording used in the job posting. OP, did the job posting and/or the interview state that basic computer skills were required? If so, the employee slipped through the hiring process. I have had interviews ask how comfortable I am with the software, and I state yes. That is the end of it. If those questions were asked during, the interview and she stated or led the interview committee to believe she had the experience that is grounds for immediate dismissal.
        Many times, we do not want to be the barrier of bad news. Employers assume that individuals have experience with Microsoft Office. To me, I think she is not qualified and should be let go. You do not want to spend a good portion of your working hours training someone on basic skills. Many temporary agencies offer on-line training on software package for their employees. She might need to go that route or take classes to bring her skills up to the standard level.

      2. myswtghst*

        “But in a broader stroke, your story and the OPs reminds me of the importance of communication the expectation of the training to the trainee up front with timelines and expectations given. “

        Such a great point! I train call center new hires, and one of the things I do from day one is to be as clear as possible about the fact that I cannot teach them every possible issue they’ll see, but I can teach them the basics, and I will teach them how to find the answers for all the other weird stuff that comes up. I still have people who, at the end, get huffy that “no one ever taught me this!” but it helps to be able to say “I get that, but that’s why you have these resources that we reviewed in depth – so you can find the answer.”

      1. myswtghst*

        I had a coworker at a previous job who always marveled at my technical skills, and never seemed to believe me when I told him that 98% of it was Google. At this point, it’s really rare to have a computer problem/question that no one has ever had and posted about on the internet, so Google is a great starting point.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          So my recent observation is that knowing how to Google things for best results is becoming a skill itself! I feel like this has become much more of a thing as their search algorithms have changed over time. I frequently find myself when my manager and I are working together, suggesting specific search terms to use (Including for tech support type stuff). Wonder how much thought others put into this.

          1. Triumphant Fox*

            I definitely feel that googling is a technique in itself – mainly because I see when it fails. My last manager once asked me how I would search for “Major publications CFOs read in the Teapot industry” and I was so confused by the question at first, but he literally wanted to know what search terms I would put into Google. I replied, “Major publications CFOs read in the Teapot industry” and he was blown away – such brilliance. So much of that job was me constantly googling the alphabet soup that is the teapot industry/ every term of art people would use in meetings because I had no background in anything related to that job.

    4. DJ Roomba*

      It sounds to me like the real problem here is that Jane is not qualified for her job. Computer work is a key component of this role (as it is for many other roles) and she doesn’t have the necessary skills. So while I like TL’s recommendation, I worry that saying “I expected you to be reasonably familiar with Word, Google, and Program by X weeks…” implies that teaching Jane how to use Word & Google is part of the job. It’s not.

      Perhaps OP is reluctant to mention this to the boss because she doesn’t want to get Jane fired. There are plenty of places I’ve worked that wouldn’t hesitate to let someone go if they lacked these skills. If that IS the case, I’d advise OP1 to have an honest and frank conversation with Jane about how critical it really is to learn these skills.

      1. Bea*

        This is my thought as well. Jane probably embellished skillset or most likely the hiring manager never thought she needed to ask about basic computer knowledge. She cannot function in her job and isn’t interested at fixing it for some reason.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, I don’t think it’s wise to automatically assume everyone is computer literate. Even younger people–though a lot of times, we assume it’s older workers who don’t have those skills. There are a myriad of reasons why they may not have learned it.

          1. Triumphant Fox*

            Or learned it to the degree they need to. So many college grads come in with no clue about the finer points of Excel (the number of times I have taught someone what a new sheet is in…), PowerPoint or Word. Often, they weren’t formally taught these programs but learned to do them as part of different school projects, which can lead to really varied knowledge.

            1. Deb B.*

              Absolutely. Nowadays everyone is told not to put knowledge of things like Microsoft Office on their resume because EVERYONE knows it and it is just assumed. Wrong! I remember being asked to give a presentation to several dozen employees because I did a task particularly well. In all honesty, it was VERY basic excel. But apparently that was more than many of the employees knew. And sadly, that is all they could do after my presentation. After all, it was only 10-15 minutes. Not a class. They could do what I did for THAT task. I think that is how a lot of us have learned. I know there are holes in my learning. But, sadly, my moderate(at best, I am working on it) skills make me a computer genius to many of my family and friends.

      2. Anon and on and on*

        Here’s the thing OP, you are there to teach her how to make a sandwich, not how to make bread – much less how to open the bread bag and the mayo jar. Every time.
        I think you need to kick it upstairs because she’s finding Jane is not trying. This has gone beyond, “she only knows how to open and close a file,” into “she wants me to walk her through something step by step and sighs and huffs when I ask her to try it herself first.”

      3. sap*

        Seconding having an honest and frank conversation with Jane as step 1. It doesn’t have to be “learn this or I’ll escalate it to the boss and you might get fired,” but “you’ve stated several times that you don’t know how to use a search engine to find answers and don’t want to take a computer class. However, I was asked to train you how to do x, y, and z, which require that you know how to do a, b, and c already; in this role, you are expected to know a, b, and c already. I wasn’t asked to teach you a, b, and c, and doing so would amount to taking on an additional project, which would be something I will need to discuss with my/our boss to make room for on my plate. How does that sound to you?”

        I think you’ll probably need to escalate Jane’s skills gap anyway, but it really does sound like right now Jane thinks that it’s reasonable that she doesn’t know these things and that you were actually assigned to teach these things to her, and she might be a lot more proactive about figuring them out on her own if she knew you weren’t actually supposed to be helping her learn them as part of the training process.

        I also think it’s reasonable to escalate this without the conversation, but it sounds like LW doesn’t want to get Jane in trouble if Jane’s problem is just that she doesn’t realize she is making requests outside the scope of what LW is expected to handle as a trainer, and an easy way to check whether that’s what’s going on is for LW to tell Jane she’s asking for training outside what LW is expected to give.

    5. Turquoisecow*

      Every time I’ve been a trainer, my boss (and sometimes others) have periodically asked me how the new person was coming along. I tried to be positive in the first report, but by the end of a week or so, I can usually tell whether this is going to work out or not.

      OP, if your boss isn’t having these check-ins with you (and Jane), you should definitely take he initiative to update them. Chances are, boss is not going to interact with Jane half as much as you are, and would appreciate a heads up if, for example, it takes Jane twice as long to complete tasks that others do, or she needs significant hand holding, and this slows down your work.

      A few years ago, I had a coworker who was only slightly more skilled than Jane on computer tasks. I pointed out this deficiency several times, but unfortunately nothing was done. The company also offered Excel and Word classes to its employees, with the idea that we could use these skills to help us with our jobs, as well as professionally develop. (It didn’t really help this coworker.) However, there’s a limit to that. As someone else said above, it’s not your job to teach Jane basic computer skills that are presumably a requirement of her job.

      1. Kate 2*

        Honestly this is why I wish more companies would require skills testing between the resume and interview stages. It puts less of a burden on the applicant to figure out what the company wants (e.g. intermediate Word skills) and more on the company to be sure the candidate isn’t lying/confused (Can you create a basic Excel spreadsheet?)

      2. econobiker*

        Sounded like this employee also doesn’t have a clue how to or the necessity of actually learning more.

  6. Diamond*

    For the desks, how about attaching fabric to the back of them? I’m thinking a strip of fabric attached to the back of the desk with those stick-on velcro strips. A lot easier and cheaper than replacing all the desks and you can work around the cables.
    It had never occurred to me before that that’s what the panels on the back of desks are for!

    1. Knitting Cat Lady*

      Heh, I’ve never had a desk with a panel at the back!

      And those few desks I’ve seen with panels I always thought they were a design element to look pretty!

      1. Diamond*

        I just checked my desk and it doesn’t have one, ha. No one can look up my skirt though. I thought they were just to look pretty too!

      2. Wendy Darling*

        I had legit never heard the term “modesty panel” before — I also thought it was a design element.

        None of my desks have had any such thing except the giant three-ton ones from the 1960s we had in all the offices when I was in grad school, and I just assumed it was cheaper or prettier to have the board covering the backs of the drawers cover the entire back of the desk! I’ve also never worked somewhere that skirts were super common, though — mostly I’ve worked in blue-jeans kind of places.

        1. Mookie*

          Same. It’s proof that a functional aspect of design doesn’t have to kick you in the teeth to serve a need. They’re so invisible to me that it never occurred to me why they was there, and now they end up looking quite aesthetically pleasing to me.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            They aren’t used if the desk is meant to be against a wall. (Sometimes – I have a very old computer desk –
            the kind with the space for a CPU and one of the huge old tube monitors – with one – even though nobody I’ve ever known with one of those desks put it anywhere *except* against a wall, because they were functional pieces of furniture that nobody thought looks nice.)

    2. Landshark*

      The idea of “modesty curtains” isn’t bad, but I fear it risks being a fire hazard. Still, some form of alternative solution along these lines may be helpful for OP2 and her co-workers as a suggestion to bring to the table in case their workplace won’t budge on the new desks.

    3. Laura*

      I came here to suggest exactly this temporary solution. It clearly won’t look as nice as desks that have an actual modesty panel, but would be easy enough to do. It would be a much cheaper solution for your company to pay for if they’re refusing to buy new desks. You can also encourage them to do it to all the desks with the same fabric so that they match, otherwise it could become a very colorful office if you each bring in your own fabric.

      Depending on the temperature of the office, something I’ve done in the past is bring a large shawl to use as a lap blanket. I started out doing this in an office that was super cold in the summer and learned that it had an added benefit of allowing me to not have to pay so much attention to how I was positioning my legs when wearing a skirt. If your office is warm, this wouldn’t be a good option, but I’m guessing if they didn’t think of women in selecting desks, they aren’t thinking of women with the thermostat either.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Yeah, while it’s not something the OP should have to take care of herself, as a practical matter I was thinking a large piece of light cloth held down by whatever is heaviest on your desk. (For example ,I have paperweights and large mugs on my desk.) A summer wrap or shawl (something wider than a normal winter scarf) might do, or even a tablecloth. They should have cheap, unpatterned, neutral-colored plastic or paper temporary tablecloths at a party store, or online.

      I’ll bet that 1) the management in this case is male, and 2) if there was a kilt-wearing Scotsman in the office, the male management would suddenly take this a lot more seriously!

      1. Ella*

        “Dear Alison, We have these new desks at work that do not have modesty panels, and every time I bend down to plug in my laptop, I can see up the kilt of my traditional Scottish coworker. He does not like to wear underpants with his kilt, nor does he cross his ankles. What should I do?”

      3. Philthy phil*

        As an alternative to the kilt, I suggest Lemmy style short shorts. Nuts look even worse half popped out.

      4. Ghost Town*

        The story goes that at another building on our campus this wasn’t initially addressed till summer, when the (male) tech staff were wearing loose fitting shorts with no underwear. They got modesty panels installed.

    5. LCL*

      Fabric yes. Or, I was thinking the more rigid plasticy foam core stuff, like what campaign signs are made of. They are lightweight enough that between Velcro and zip ties you could provide some concealment. And for bending over to plug something in, buy yourself a good quality power strip to keep at the desk.

    6. A.*

      My former coworker did something similar to her office door. It was made of glass so she covered it with wrapping paper so she would be able to have privacy to breast feed. Another option would be to place a summer wrap or shawl across your lap.

    7. Student*

      Make it a (sturdy) poster with some company thingy on it (motto, latest initiative, logo, whatever works for you guys). Then it’s a lot harder for somebody to look at it and complain about aesthetics.

    8. Betsys*

      My first thought – go to the dollar store and get some nice big tablecloths. You can tape them to the back of the desk or arrange them tablecloth style. If the whole office does it , it will be a dramatic statement.

      Also it’s never impossible to attach a back to a desk, if you have an electric drill and a little creativity. Even if there are cable tie tidies there.

      If all else fails, something can be put on the *inside* of the desks. Some sort of clips attached to the cable run, holding a curtain rod. Or a small tensioned curtain rod. Or just a small easel or whiteboard.

      I bet if you post a picture of both the outside of the desk and the view from the chair side, looking up towards the back, you’ll get a lot of good ideas
      (and work should pay for any hardware!)

      If you work in a biggish company, the folks in the maintenance department may have some good creative ideas.

      (you know what’s really cheap ? Halloween wall decorations. I once papered my cube with a fake stone wall for halloween)

  7. MilkMoon (UK)*

    LW5: On behalf of customer service and call centre employees and managers everywhere, THANK YOU. Please, absolutely do give good feedback and know it’s really making both the employee & manager’s days.

    You are correct in your assumption that we deal with a lot of awful people and their poor manners and/or poor opinion of customer service representatives – it’s a really draining job. Basically we get verbally abused a lot for things that aren’t our fault – some people evidently believe we’re paid to be punchbags.

    I do get a lot of good feedback from customers while on calls ‘You’ve been wonderful’ etc, which is lovely of course and I’m not knocking it at all, but unless that’s picked-up in a call quality session it doesn’t *really* get much further. Customers who compliment you directly to the manager or send an email in to that effect do give us good, quantifiable feedback for our work reviews.

    1. Gen*

      Yes! They might also use those calls for review since they’ve already pulled the records which can be very handy in getting the callhandler a better score overall. Similarly if you’re happy but not so ecstatic that you want a manager do take the review at the end if you’re offered one- it’s often a button push 1-5/1-10 rating. Some places track the refusals as a midlevel score even if the customer verbally stated that they were delighted with the callhandler

      1. Karma*

        It’s worth noting also that some companies (such as the one I work at) place anything below an 8 out of 10 as a ‘neutral’ score. A lot of people would only give 10/10 if they got exceptional service where the person went way above and beyond but personally, as long as I got everything I needed and the person helping me was friendly I always give them a 19.

        2. Hotel GM*

          Yep, it’s better to not leave a survey at all than to leave an 8/10. Stupid, but that’s TPTB

    2. Loz*

      We have managers positive customer feedback on our internal “Facebook-like” site. CSRs get recognition (not sure about $) but yeah! Make it known. Everyone wins, right?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        When I was supervising a call center, we used to document every time a customer emailed or talked to a supervisor, and that feedback was all considered when it was time for the employee’s review. I always ask for a supervisor now when I’ve had someone who was more helpful or nicer than I expected.

        I will say to the OP, though, not every call center is like that. If the CSR balks or says they can’t and they’ve truly been exceptional, ask them if there is any way you could give them positive feedback. They may ask you to do a survey or even write an email or letter. I know those are more effort, but if you really want to help, it’s important to listen to what actually helps and what doesn’t. Even if there is no way that feedback will help them professionally, you’ll have definitely given them a huge boost by offering. And that’s even more important to do when it’s the kind of workplace that does not care about positive feedback or commendations.

        1. myswtghst*

          Yes to your second paragraph! The majority of the time it’s no problem for our reps to grab a manager, but if everyone is busy / in a meeting, it helps if the customer is open to sending in an email instead.

    3. BK*

      Yes, this! LW5 please continue to do this, it is rare and makes someone’s day. Where I worked in a call centre (IT support working for giant company, with another giant company’s employees as our clients), we weren’t allowed to get managers on the line, but an email asking for feedback was sent out after each call. Most people of course only thought to send it back if they had a complaint – which made the positive ones all the more special. Among all the quantifiable ratings we received based on a bunch of metrics (call length, number of calls taken, ‘first call fixes” etc) something subjective like this feels more real because this tells us we are good at helping YOU, and not just at maximizing our employer’s income.

    4. Mabel*

      Should I still do this if the employee may have broken/bent a rule to help me? I don’t want to get the person in trouble when I really want to appreciate them! I recently brought my dogs to doggie daycare for overnight boarding three hours after they closed (I thought they were open later on that day). The person who was there watching the dogs happened to walk by the front window as I ran up the door, and she let me drop off my dogs for their overnight stay. I REALLY appreciated it! But I was worried if I said anything, the manager might be upset that she opened the door after hours. In that kind of situation, I’m not sure what to do. (In that particular situation, it turns out that she told the daytime staff because they mentioned it to me the next day, so I guess it was OK for her to do that, but if they hadn’t said anything, I wouldn’t have known.)

      1. SarahKay*

        I still give the compliment, but phrase it a little more non-specifically. E.g. ‘Jane at Doggie Daycare was very helpful and friendly and it’s great to be able to leave my dogs with a company that has such a wonderful employee’.

    5. Aurion*

      I once was buying a new hard drive for my computer and had a really nice (ran into him twice; first time when I bought the drive and second time when I exchanged it because I was a moron and bought it in the wrong size). I sent some positive feedback through the store website (it allowed me to select the store I was at), noted the rep’s name and rough time I met him, and went on my way.

      Several months later, I ran into the guy at an evening class I was taking. He remembered me and we became friends (I haven’t talked to him in a while, but we were in regular contact for several months to a year, and whenever I stopped by his store I’d ask if he was in and we’d chat for a few minutes). I’m pretty damn sure that it was my feedback that made him remember me that night at the class; at a store that size, each CSR probably helps dozens of customers a day.

      Feedback makes a difference, all. :)

  8. MilkMoon (UK)*

    LW3: It’s not normal, and it’s not naive to assume and expect that you will be treated with respect at a job interview, or anywhere for that matter.

    As Alison said, one good thing you can take from that experience is that he was so upfront about being a jerk, and taught you what you won’t accept from an interviewer in future!

  9. Landshark*

    OP5, my husband works in insurance sales over the phone at [big insurance company], and people rarely do what you do, even if they rave about him on his line. The managers usually love hearing it, and it can make a CSR/sales rep/other person who has to field phone calls from often rude people’s day. Keep it up!

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Plus a lot of times when they get these complimentary calls from people, the manager may make a note of that and put it in their file for review time!

  10. I Coulda Been a Lawyer ;)*

    I’ve been sitting at a desk in a relatively public area in numerous jobs and I’ve never NOT had a modesty panel. While it’s easy to think that skirt wearers are the ones most impacted, I think you’ll find that most men don’t want to think that coworkers and customers are staring at their crotches either.

    1. I Coulda Been a Lawyer ;)*

      * over a 40 year career in mostly conservative industries (banking, finance, insurance, engineering).

      1. Jesca*

        Yes, in industries where you regularly have clients/customers filling out paperwork at your desk, this is not uncommon. In the broader office world, it is not very common at all.

        1. Natalie*

          In the broader office world, it is not very common at all.

          This hasn’t been my experience at all. Every office I’ve seen with floating desks (as opposed to desks against a wall or cubicle) has had a panel on the back of the desk.

          1. Jesca*

            LOL no. I misread the initial comment where they said they did NOT have a modesty panel. So flip what I said haha. As in: In environments where signing at one’s desk is common, having no modesty panels is not uncommon. In a general working environment, it is very common to have modesty panels.

        2. Health Insurance Nerd*

          “In the broader office world, it is not very common at all.” This is not correct. I work in a company of more than 2000 people. We do not have clients in our offices, and the desks are equipped with a privacy panel as a standard issue.

    2. Elsajeni*

      Yeah, I rarely wear skirts, but I’d still hate to have a desk without a modesty panel — I just don’t want to have to think about whether my legs and feet are posed in a “professional” sort of way all the time! Give me my modesty panel and let me tuck one leg under me like a flamingo in peace.

      1. zora*

        I also want to be able to have stuff under my desk without it looking messy or everyone being able to see it! I keep an extra pair of shoes under my desk for the days it’s raining and I wear rainboots on my commute. I would hate the cluttered messiness of seeing under everyone’s desks, the modesty panels make the office look tidier and more uniform.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          This is the #1 reason I think the back of desk panel is so important. I keep so much stuff under my desk and I also have a file cabinet under my desk that is shorter than the desktop, and I keep stuff there like my phone, my coffee cup, my lunch etc. (I often find myself eating part of something then putting it away there then resuming eating it). And shoes. And my backpack sometimes. Having everything like that on display is pretty horrible imo. I completely agree with you about the cluttered messiness of being able to see under desks.

          1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

            I hope you haven’t been discouraged by the comments, OP2. I think it sounds like a frustrating situation and would love to hear an update when/if you have one

  11. NicoleK*

    #1 I work with a Jane. In fact, she trained me when I joined the company and it was one of the worst training experiences I’ve ever had. I’m stuck now as Jane’s de facto IT support. And yes, our boss is aware that Jane has very limited computer skills. Please go to your boss and share your concerns. As her “trainer” your boss should be seeking your feedback anyway.

    #5 Besides speaking with the manager, you can always write a thank you note too. That kind gesture is always appreciated.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I had a “Jane” who literally could not click on something when I pointed to it on her screen. She also said the exact opposite of what we trained everyone to say on calls. She wouldn’t have lasted as long as she did if she wasn’t an internal hire! I’ve never forgiven that other division for not warning me about her, that was my first and only PIP I ever had to even threaten, much less implement.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Me too! I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for Jane, because it sounds like she knowingly accepted a job she should have known she wasn’t qualified for.

      2. Just Jess*

        Guess 1: Jane “interviewed very well” and that means there was no testing of actual skills required for the job

        Guess 2: The hiring manager did not have a clear idea of what kind of work Jane’s position would be doing. This sounds unbelievable, but I’ve started noticing that sadly it does happen. Or more generously, the position changes between the time the vacancy is announced and the time the final candidate starts their first day.

        Guess 3: A combo of 1 and 2; the person who picked Jane (not necessarily the hiring manager) didn’t know enough about computer skills to identify her skill gaps

        1. DDJ*

          Yup! Ended up with a situation due to Number 1. My organization doesn’t do skills testing.

          As it turns out, that’s how you end up with someone who can work in various database systems and has the more complex experience you’re looking for…but doesn’t know how to create or send an email.

      3. nonegiven*

        Maybe they asked if she had basic computer skills and she thought checking her Facebook and email counted.

  12. Snorks*

    OP #5, I did that once when I went into a new store. The lady working was just the perfect blend of helpful but not in your face, knowledgeable about their products, etc.
    I made sure to get her name (no name tags, had to ask) and leave feedback on their website. Even better, the State Manager responded saying they liked getting feedback like that and how it will go on her file, etc.
    They’ve got themselves a customer for life.

    1. Joan Callamezzo*

      I did this once in a dept. store. In about 45 minutes, no fewer than 4 saleswomen cheerfully asked if I was finding what I needed, offered to start a room/show me related items, told me about special promotions, asked me if i needed different sizes, etc. They were friendly and attentive without being overbearing.

      When I brought my items to the counter, I pleasantly asked if I could speak to the manager and everyone froze. The cashier summoned her manager from another floor and, smiling tightly, assured me she was on her way. When the manager arrived I shook her hand, apologized for taking her away from her duties but told her I’d been so impressed with the level of service that I just had to let her know. All the saleswomen sagged in relief and then got very smiley and animated. It was clear this didn’t happen very often. The manager seemed pleased and said she appreciated the feedback, and the rest of the staff, visibly floating on warm fuzzies, practically carried my bags to my car.

      I really should do that more often.

      1. Salesforce*

        Next time, please make it clear that you aren’t complaining when you ask to see the manager, though! It was a nice thing to do, but those few minutes waiting would have been horrible for the staff.

        2. MCMonkeyBean*

          Yes, it’s easy not to think of that in the moment but you could probably say something like “the service here has been really great; I’d like to speak with your manager about it!”

        3. Joan Callamezzo*

          Yeah, it was a couple of minutes before I figured out what was happening, and it took me by surprise, so I hadn’t quite figured out how to address it until the manager was already there. Next time I would definitely frame it differently to be clear I wasn’t planning to complain.

      2. Ella*

        There’s a music venue in Boston that I go to regularly, enough that I recognize many of the security staff’s faces, especially the bouncers at the front of the stage who catch crowd surfers (I am often one of the people in the front row, getting said crowd surfers dragged off my head). Once after a week of particularly surfer-heavy shows, I tracked down the security manager, and when I asked him if he was the manager and if I could speak to him, I got that same deer-in-the-headlights look, until he realized that what I was doing was thanking his staff for being professional, and strong, and keeping all of us on the front rail safe. The look of gratitude on his face when I was done complimenting his staff was something to remember. I don’t think people ever thank venue staff.

      3. Queen Anon*

        I thought your comment was going to be a complaint – if four separate salespeople approached me in a short time (or even one person four times), I’d probably put down whatever I had on my hands, leave the store, and never return. You asked me once, thank you. If I need assistance, I promise I’ll let you know. For pity’s sake, please leave me alone and let me shop in peace! Funny how one person’s lovely shopping experience can be another’s worst shopping nightmare. (I know that, unfortunately, sometimes salespeople are required to be intrusive by store policy just like fast-food staff are required to upsell.)

        1. Joan Callamezzo*

          I understand! I am most definitely not the kind of person who want a salesperson at my elbow all the time–I don’t respond well to hard sells and it can drive me out of a store if they won’t leave me alone. It’s hard to describe, but these ladies were all cheerful and prepared to be helpful but it was more of a brief check-in each time than trailing me around the store shoving garments at me. The whole vibe was friendly but low-key.

      4. Elizabeth West*

        I did that when I bought a computer from this place that did custom builds. They were so amazing I had to tell the manager. That computer lasted for seven years–I had to take it in for maintenance a few times, but they worked within my budget and were just generally great. I don’t regret taking the time to do that–I think it also made them think of me as a good customer. :)

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Wegmans will reward their employee with a free lunch when they get named (first name from the nametag and department are enough) in a compliment on a comment card. I’ve written a few of those myself, because employees there seem to be trained to go above and beyond when you ask them anything.

    3. Trickle*

      Yep, I regularly email companies when I’ve experienced great customer service from them. It’s usually shops or restaurants. It’s so easy to message them on Facebook messenger! When I used to work as a delivery driver for a pizza chain I had three or four customers over the years message our store saying how friendly, helpful, professional I was as a delivery driver (I’d go above and beyond like heading to the random shop nearby to get them several bottles of cold coke if our bag packers had forgotten to include the drink, out of my own cash, rather than make the customer wait while I did a repeat trip for the drink back at the store, so they didn’t have to eat their pizza without their drink and could start eating asap), and for resolving complaints on slow Saturdays (‘she’s wasted as a driver, she should be manager!’).

      They helped me keep my hours in our crappy zero hour contract minimum wage culture, made my bosses love me and think of me when assigning shifts, and made my week to be appreciated for a generally thankless task. I still have copies of those emails now I’m a social worker! I love to pass on decent feedback as I know people normally only get complaints and in a dog eat dog business they can vouch for the employee and raise morale. I know how good I felt so I like to pass it on :)

  13. Novocastriart*

    Absolutely do it – I manage a team of CSRs and thoroughly appreciate any opportunity to shine a light on team members who are doing a great job. The feedback you give can have a number of positive outcomes for the individual CSR as well as the team as a whole. What I *really* like, is when someone (during the course of our discussion, or prior to speaking with me) asks for my email address, and sends a quick note with their main compliment- as this can be shared more readily – and put on the employees file/notice board/intranet, or whatever is appropriate. Good on you, for recognising someone doing a great job!!

  14. Dan*

    OP1 —

    This type of question comes up from time to time here, and I find it interesting. I have a technical background — I write software and do data analysis, and have a six figure salary. For the last ten years, the two companies I’ve worked for have been MS Office companies. And let me tell you, at my first job, it was pretty embarrassing how lacking my MS Office skills are. In fact, they suck so bad that I can’t pass the tests temp offices give their prospective staff. (My ex had a take home test, and I looked over her shoulder. I was screwed after the fourth or fifth question in most of the applications, especially Word and Outlook.) At my last job, my first “paper” had something like 80 images, and I didn’t know that there were certain commands that you entered such that they rolled up into the table of contents. Oops. My tech editor laughed at me pretty good.

    Even these days, I work with specialty or niche software, much of which is written in house, or otherwise specific to my field of study. When it comes to MS Office, our admins run circles around me.

    I can’t tell whether your new hire just can’t use a computer at all, or is just unfamiliar with MS Office. If she is lacking skills that you think are generally possessed by most of your applicant pool, I’d spell them out in the job ad, and test/interview for them on the job. (And none of this “intermediate” or “advanced” stuff, please. Spell out the kinds of things that will be needed.)

    When it comes to hiring, assume nothing and screen for the important things. Even in the software world, people who claim to be programmers usually end up doing some light “coding” on a white board during the interview.

    1. Myrin*

      I actually think it sounds pretty clearly like Jane can’t use a computer at all – the OP actually mentions thinking at first that it’s just Office she’s got problems with, but actually over time came to the conclusion that “Jane is basically computer illiterate”. I think that’s pretty easy to discern usually, especially if you’re the one training the person in question and have been doing so for a certain amount of time.

    2. College student*

      That’s what I was thinking too. Maybe she’s just a MacOS user (a bad one, but still) and not familiar at all with Windows or MS Office. I’m studying for a career in tech and when I was a helper at a tech workshop that turned out to be run all be on Mac’s… well let’s just say I wasn’t very helpful and looked like I knew nothing about tech. (the workshop wasn’t announced as all MacOS’s; I wouldn’t have signed up if I’d known.)

        1. Natalie*

          It’s not like it’s free – plenty of people who owns Macs just use the native, free programs rather than buy an extra one. It used to be really expensive, too, although it looks like that’s not the case anymore.

      2. London Bookworm*

        This is a possibility, although some of the stuff mentioned (like using the close button rather than the file drop-down) are the same on most operating systems.

        1. fposte*

          That example is one of the key differences, in fact! File->Close doesn’t exit the program in the Mac environment; it just closes out the document. Confuses the heck out of me whenever I need to work in Windows.

          1. London Bookworm*

            Ha! It’s been a few years since I’ve been a regular Word user – clearly, my memory is starting to fail me.

        2. Trig*

          I sounds like Jane *does* know some of the very basics, but not the shortcuts. Some of the examples (CTRL+C, close button) are just alternate, more efficient ways to do things. Jane knows one way to do a some things, and is comfortable with that. It’s not wrong to do it the one way you know how, but maybe takes a bit more time, which can be super frustrating for someone who knows the other ways. I work with a lot of Gen-Xers who use the dang file menu for everything! File-Save! File-Close! File-New! Delete and retype an entire sentence to fix a typo! Don’t know about CTRL+arrow to skip over an entire word! It drives me a bit batty, but these are otherwise competent people, and they do their work just fine; and this is just the way they’re used to doing things. I bite my tongue instead of constantly pointing out that there’s a faster way, because that would be super annoying. I’m sure someone ten years my junior knows all kinds of expediencies I don’t at this point.

          That said, I don’t disbelieve that Jane is lacking other basic computer skills, and these were just easy examples the OP could think of. I think the main problem is her unwillingness to experiment and figure it out on her own, which again, is something I’ve noticed in some of my colleagues. They are afraid to screw things up in an irreversible way. But they are ALSO usually fine with Googling it or learning how to do it, which Jane is not.

          So yeah. All that to say, Jane could use a basic course and some prompting from her manager to try and sort it out herself before enlisting other people/LW.

          1. ket*

            I gotta say, although it’s probably not Jane’s problem, I sympathize with Dan above. As I read I thought, Ctrl-C? Usually that goes with another Ctrl-something to get anything done in Emacs — what are they talking about here?

            It sounds like the refusal to take classes is a big problem. I don’t know Word very well at all, I’m a LaTeX girl, but when I really need to do a big project in an Office application or an Adobe program I have found a structured online class pretty helpful because I don’t even know what I don’t know.

          2. LCL*

            I never thought of not using the file menu for all those functions. I like it because it is clear what you are doing, and my brain works better with words than pictures. I’m older than Gen X and mostly self taught, for what that’s worth.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I’d be lost if I had to work on a Mac. Granted, I could learn it, but not in time to get up to speed on a new job. I avoid any where Mac use is spelled out in the job posting. It’s just not necessary for what I’ve been doing.

      4. sap*

        Yeah, but… When #1 asked stuff like “have you tried Googling it?” Jane seems to be replying “I don’t know how to Google computer problems.” Which doesn’t make her bad or stupid or too old or anything, but it does make her pretty computer illiterate by reasonable standards, particularly if the thing she needs to Google is “how do I start a new spreadsheet excel” which will get you an answer to BOTH creating a new worksheet and creating a new file, with video guidance for both, within the first 5 results. That’s how you’d ask that question of a person, so it’s not like this is one of those cases where knowing how to Google well is an artform that not everyone has–this is “I don’t know how to use a search engine, at all.” In today’s workplaces, that’s just not computer literate.

      5. MM*

        Huh. I grew up using Macs but have had to use Windows for work here and there, and while I definitely don’t have the same level of skill and dexterity when using a Windows computer, I don’t think the two interfaces are all that different when you’re doing basic word processing, spreadsheets, and email (which is all you need for many office jobs).

    3. MLB*

      While she may have a lack of knowledge with MS Office (or computers in general), she also sounds unmotivated to learn. I would be more willing to help someone who takes initiative to learn something new, than someone who expects me to do it for her, or doesn’t get her work done because she doesn’t know how.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        This seems like the more significant problem. Jane seems borderline-deceptive to me–she should know that constantly relying on other people for her work means she’s not qualified for it, and she should be making every effort to remedy that!

    4. Ennigaldi*

      I’ve done those temp office tests more often than I care to remember, and they’re always on like Office 97 and only allow you to do things one particular way (i.e. not with all the shortcuts I regularly use in Office products from the current century). So even as a heavy user, I got like a 60% on my first try!

      That said, I agree with MLB that the LW’s helping with ad hoc tasks is probably contributing to some learned helplessness in Jane.

    5. Scarlet*

      Hum, no, it really sounds like someone who is computer-illiterate. When you’re unfamiliar with a specific programme (esp. when it’s one as generic as word processing), you’re slower but you can definitely find your way around it if you’re reasonably computer-literate. I have no IT background at all and I often have to learn how to work with new software. Most of the time, it’s not that hard provided you know how to use a computer in general.
      I’ve trained computer-illiterate people before and you can quickly see a difference between someone who’s not familiar with a particular programme but who basically knows what they’re doing and someone who just has no idea how to use a computer.

  15. kas*

    #5 – Please continue passing on positive feedback. I worked in a call centre once and it was always nice to be recognized. Customer feedback was also added to our reviews so it was nice to have positive comments in there. I ask to speak to managers when the service is great. However, lately I haven’t done it as often as the wait times to speak to a manager are crazy sometimes. I once waited on hold for almost 10 minutes and couldn’t bring myself to hang up as the customer service rep seemed so happy that I asked to speak to their manager to compliment them. I think I’ll start emailing from now on if there’s an option to email.

  16. NoMoreFirstTimeCommenter*

    #1 I think it’s a really good point that this person needs to learn the logic of the system as a whole. I also know a Jane (in my private life, not work) who has learned some quite difficult individual things on the computer but struggles with some very basic things. Her job rarely requires her to do new and unusual things on a computer so she usually does fine because she has memorized the normal computer things she needs to do, but if she needs to do anything outside that she’s lost – which leads to really weird “how can she not know THIS when she regularly does THAT” situations. Things would get so much easier if she had a basic understanding about how things in general work, even if it would involve learning things she doesn’t need regularly. So I think finding time to learn the basics properly once would be a very good investment for the future. It would also help with the fear “Janes” often feel when doing computer things, the feeling that something may break or get lost at any moment.

  17. Observer*

    #2 I’m highly skeptical that you really can’t put a modesty panel on the desks because of the cable routing.

    Does your boss have someone above him? Do you have HR?

    I agree that this should be approached as a group. If you don’t get anywhere, you may make the the point about sex based discrimination – you’ve got a male supervisor deciding that “the ladies” are just “over-reacting” (and perhaps enjoying the view a bit too much.) I’m not saying that the manager is actually “enjoying the view”, but if anyone thinks that it’s not possible, they’ve been living under a rock.

    Don’t present this as “we want new desks” but “we need this problem fixed.” If you get push-back about needing new desks, don’t engage. “We don’t care whether you fix these desks, or get new ones but we need some sort of modesty panel.” Lather, rinse, repeat….

    Modesty panels are standard on office desks, including desks that are used for computers. So, if THESE desks really cannot utilize a panel, whoever purchased them did a very bad job. That’s not your problem, but it might explain why your manager doesn’t want to deal with it – he doesn’t want to show that he made a stupid decision.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      I mean, the time-honored solution to “but cable routing” is “then cut a hole in it”. The idea of a modern desk not being able to deal with cable routing is ridiculous — I’d be gobsmacked if they didn’t have SOME provision for getting cables to where they need to go.

      But seriously if they don’t, someone in management needs to find someone with a hole saw and get cutting.

      I did once have a desk where my cable routing solution was, necessarily, “all the cables hang over the front of the desk”. It was the desk built into the wall of my college dormitory, which was built in the mid-60s, and was better suited to a manual typewriter. A few years after I moved out facilities cut holes in all of them. For cable routing.

    2. AJ*

      +1 – There has GOT to be a contractor/carpenter in the area that can make simple panels that can be cut with a scroll saw to conform around the plugs. There was a suggestion about using cloth, then a comment that cloth might be a fire hazard. There has GOT to be cloth treated with flame retardant (like what couches, etc are made of) available online. How about all people in need of new desks offer to SHOW the manager what the problem is if he does not listen to the group’s request? (Wear bike shorts, etc that day of course) and be clear that crossing legs/ankles all day is NOT option – suggest he try crossing his legs all day. If none of this works I’d be personally tempted to make my own panel out of poster board until the problem is fixed. You could even write something snarky on it – “a penny for peeking” etc.

      1. RVA Cat*

        I’d almost say have everyone wear loud, colorful shorts under her skirt that day, just to prove a point.

        1. Emi.*

          Ugh, this reminds me of an anecdote in “The Lost Art of Dress” about a boss in the 60s who said the female employees were only allowed to wear miniskirts if their undies matched. UGH DUDE.

        3. Lady Phoenix*

          what if all the women wore boxers underneath their skirts that day? Like the really silly kind with hearts or shit emojis and other garish boys undies.

    3. A Girl Has No Name*

      This. Either cutting a hole in the desk to rout the cables (if one isn’t already built in, as this seems standard these days), or getting the type of panel that “hangs” from under the desk (basically, attach a panel to the front underside of the desk with hanging hooks – there may be a slight gap between the panel and the desk to accommodate the hooks, but not enough to actually show anything – this is what we have in one of our meeting rooms and it works great).

    4. Luna*

      Yeah as soon as I read the part about the manager being one of the only men I had an immediate UGH reaction. Not saying it’s deliberate, but the manager probably isn’t concerned about this because 1) it doesn’t impact him; and 2) he doesn’t mind the new view.

    5. OP2*

      True on so many levels. Smallish company with no proper HR and no one above the boss in question. We have a plan to approach as a group about this concerns. It leaves everyone vulnerable, not just to be gawped at, but to those who me accused of gawping.
      Side note, boss kept his old desk. Complete with modesty panel

  18. Observer*

    #1 One point you should make to Jane – she says that she doesn’t have to time to take some training. But, it’s taking more time for her to keep asking for help than it would for her to take the training.

    Also, you should be explicit with her that she needs to spend some time and head space on the logic of the system, not just specific tasks.

    This is IN ADDITION to talking to her manager. Not in a “Jane is awful” but “Jane lacks some skills the she needs, and the best thing we can do to get her up to speed is to get some training for her.”

    1. L*

      something i don’t understand about the “i don’t have time” excuse is that if you’re training…that is what you’re supposed to be doing and that is what your time is FOR. granted it sounds like she’s out of the ‘training’ period now, but if she’s not capable of independently doing her job, then she is still technically in training mode. Also, it totally depends on the workplace, but professional development is sometimes built into your job as something you will occasionally get to do/have to do.
      At this point I don’t think it’s about convincing the employee to take these courses. I think it’s a matter of explaining to her that her lack of computer knowledge and ability is impacting her ability to do her job and therefore her employment and development depends on this.

    2. J.*

      I’d also add, Jane is probably thinking of this as something she has to make personal time to learn outside of her usual work hours and doesn’t want to do that for something she doesn’t like. But this is part of her work and is a work problem! By getting her manager involved, it may be possible for her to make time for this training on the clock, as it should be. A daylong class or even a several-week community education course would probably be a worthwhile investment of time if it’s part of a regular workload, not on top of it.

  19. Tuesday Next*

    Hi OP2, yes. This is a real problem. In the few cases where I’ve been in an office without modesty boards, people have been uncomfortable and complained about it.

    Suggestions that you should wear thick tights and keep your legs crossed are impractical and go way over the line of how far you should go to adapt to your working environment.

    You could try arranging your desks so that they are face to face up against each other. This is how the desks are arranged in our huge open plan office. You can only see under someone’s desk if you crawl under the facing desk which doesn’t happen too often.

    Or arrange them in staggered groups of 4 so that you are not positioned directly opposite a colleague.

    If you aren’t allowed to do this, buy a giant shopper and position it in front of you so that it obscures the view. You don’t even ever have to take it home.

    Ideally though, this problem should be solved by the company. Your manager is being a jerk.

    1. Pomona Sprout*

      Agreed, with all of this.

      I also have a problem in general with the mind set of “X has never bothered ME, so if someone else is botheed by it, there must be something wrong with THEM, not with X.” No, just no. Among other things, that kind of attitude can can lead to an atmosphere in which people are reluctant to make suggestions for improvements and constructive changes, much less ask for help with something that is causing them difficulties, because they figure they’ll be made to feel like it’s they who are defective. I’ve worked in places like that, and it can really mess with your mind.

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        I am in the US and I think it’s a fairly generic term! It means a reusable tote bag/shopping bag. Sort of like the ones you get from IKEA. But you can get nicer looking ones/taller ones also.

        2. Kate 2*

          Never heard of “shopper” being for a bag, not a person. Do you feel comfortable giving the region? I’m in the U.S.

          1. Elizabeth H.*

            I live in Boston. I think I may have picked it up from magazines or eBay or Poshmark or NYT Style section or GOOP or something like that though – there are a lot of styles of things (clothing type things mostly but household stuff too) that have specific names that you might never know unless you are an avid online shopping website reader.

  20. Myrin*

    #3, I actually think it’s fine in such a situation to answer his “this interview was basically a waste of time and they almost certainly weren’t going to hire me” with a friendly “Well, in that case, thanks so much for telling me beforehand!” and leave. However, that’s just me and depends entirely on your own personality and whether you have some other ties to or interest in the particular company you’re interviewing at.
    Alison has two letters with a much more nuanced answer in her archives, if you’re interested: here and here (although it’s been a while so I don’t know if maybe she’s changed her stance in the meantime).

    1. Morag*

      But Jane is a good employee with an otherwise good attitude. For someone who’s trying, and it sounds like she is, but overwhelmed, it’s worth having a conversation with her manager. This is something a manager can easily fix.

      1. fposte*

        I agree with talking to the manager, but there’s no indication that Jane is a good employee. She’s not sulking that she’s failing at a pretty key task, but it’s still a pretty key task.

      2. Important Moi*

        I don’t doubt Jane is a good employee. She has the werewithall to not tell her boss she’s overwhelmed. To me that detracts from some of the “good.”

      3. Temperance*

        I don’t understand how someone who can barely use a computer or complete her tasks without a lot of hand-holding is a good employee.

        2. NicoleK*

          The Jane I work with barely knows how to use a computer. She is good at parts of her job. However, she’s personable, knows how to leverage her resources, and is able to convince people to help her mitigate her deficiencies.

      5. MommyMD*

        Morag, I don’t know how “easily” it can be fixed. Jane lacks very basic skills and relies on others to get her own work done.

        1. Jesca*

          Well now to be fair, the employer did hire her without vetting her skills – or clearly even recognizing that these were important skills they actually needed for this role. Now they have the responsibility in management to bring her up to where she needs to be in that regard. Also, we don’t know what this person was hired for. Her other skills may be needed and be very on par, and she just did not have to use basic programs to the extent this place needs her to.

          As far as OP, they just need to take it to their manager and be done with it for now. Management needs to know this is an issue, and actually OP is the one here being remiss in not pointing it out. As far as calling the other employee anything? That is unhelpful and speculative in regards to her broader skills in her role.

          1. Jesmlet*

            We don’t know that though. I’ve never been given a typing test but typing has always been a necessary skill of all my jobs. The extent that it’s vetted is they ask my proficiency level.

            Management does not necessarily have the responsibility to teach someone a core skill that they should’ve had prior to coming in. She has a desk and works in an office. There’s an implied understanding that she’d need to have a level of knowledge working with basic technology. If they wanted to, they’re more than welcome to just fire her, but it’d be nice if they told her she had to go to a computer class instead. With that said, if I was her manager, I’d tell her she needed to do it on her own time and dime.

            OP, just tell her manager and wash your hands of it all.

            1. Jesca*

              Nope, I disagree. The OP needs to tell the manager that training is lagging behind and that the trainee seems to struggle with X and Y. It is the manager’s place to determine anything else.

              And this has come up here time and again, but yes if you hire someone without vetting, then the appropriate thing to do is re-calibrate and not blame the new employee. And as I said above, speculating either way is again not really relevant or appropriate. You don’t know what this woman was hired for or why. Presumably neither does the OP. Their only role here is to let management know of the issues they are running into with training. It is not their job to be hateful or recommend firing. If my report said that to me, I would be very taken aback by their overstepping unless I directly asked them.

              1. Jesmlet*

                I literally did not say OP should recommend firing and I have no idea where you’re getting hateful language from. All I said was OP should tell the manager what was going on. If it’s unclear language then my bad but I in no way said anything you’re claiming I said.

                No one is suggesting blaming the new employee but it’s also well within the company’s right to say they messed up in not vetting properly and then let her go, or (if it’s the case) to say that she misrepresented her skills and it’s on her to get up to speed. I’ve spent the last year+ dealing with a coworker who has 80% of the skills required but who is similarly computer-illiterate. She should’ve been fired a long time ago (frankly she shouldn’t have been hired in the first place but I wasn’t part of that decision and no one who was thought to give her a typing test). That mistake doesn’t mean we’re required to spend a ton of resources to help her.

              2. Kate 2*

                Wait a minute, not only are you being unfair to Jesmlet and putting words in their mouth, but also to OP. OP has literally been tasked with *training the new employee to do her job*. Where on earth did you get the idea that OP “doesn’t know what this woman was hired for or why”???

  22. Daria Grace*

    OP 5, please provide positive feedback somehow, whether that be getting forwarded through to the manager straight away or by sending a letter or email. I work in customer service for a task that can be very emotionally difficult for many of our customers. I frequently get things resolved for customers who are upset or have complex problems. Despite this, I have trouble passing the “receives positive feedback from customers” part of my performance review because no-one ever provides it in a way that can be passed onto my manager.

  23. lurker bee*

    OP 5, I wondered the same thing you did about speaking with CSR supervisors to provide positive feedback, but was doing it anyway. Several years ago, two supervisors at wildly different types of businesses confirmed that these targeted comments really do help. One told me that all such comments go in employees’ permanent files (this was a situation in which several employees tag-teamed over the span of several weeks to help me) and with my full agreement intended to circulate the feedback to the whole department as motivation/reinforcement for what they do. Another supervisor said that in addition to going into the employee’s file, my feedback would enter the person into a departmental award pool.

    1. Book Lover*

      This is true at every level in medicine, also. The assumption is that a high level of care will always be given, I think, but when a patient actually calls the liaison with compliments or sends a letter to the CEOs office, those end up in official kudos, whether for the nurse, secretaries, or physicians. When patients tell me they have been so grateful for their care, I always tell them the best way they can give back to all the staff is with an email or letter than can be shared with the manager.

  24. Hotel GM*

    #5 – I can speak to this, as I manage customer service representatives (as well as 3 other departments, and not in a call center environment). While I appreciate the sentiment, and am gracious when I get these sorts of calls (if I’m anywhere around the desk when they come in), what is actually useful for the CSR is to leave positive reviews on the surveys at the end of the calls (Or, in my case, when you check out of the hotel and get the email requesting a survey). That’s where their performance reviews generally stem from, and where there bonuses generally stem from. Talking directly to the manager to give complements, while nice, is less useful than you’d think.

    1. Gerry Larry Terry Gary*

      I think it depends on the business. My call center job would not connect the two- a survey emailed later about your experience is handled by a third party, and we didn’t do ones right after a call.
      Just ask the rep! They will know the best way to make sure it gets recorded in a way that benefits them.
      Also- be up front that it’s a compliment. You might not have to wait as long- an escalation to a manager went to a much smaller pool of reps than those who handled compliments.

  25. Kate*

    OP3, no, please don’t think all interviews are like that!
    I came out from my very first in-person interview very upset, saying I won’t ever go to job interviews again. Never. Since then, I’ve been to a few and even though every interview is different, and there are some terrible examples, you just gotta know there are going to be some jerks, but there are going to be some pleasant people, as well. I’d say that’s a bullet dodged. Don’t give up, there are some good people and companies out there! Don’t let this bad example influence your attitude to interviews.

  26. Gaming Teapot*

    @OP 5: I am going to take a different stance here than most other people seem to take and say “please don’t ask to speak to their managers”. I worked in customer support myself, and here is why:

    Every single call an agent receives is recorded and timed. Most, if not all customer services have a specific time frame for these calls. In my company, the generic rule was that every call should be handled and concluded to the satisfaction of the customer within 90 seconds. At the end of the month, the average length of all your calls compared to that target influenced your bonus and thus your final paycheck. A lot of these jobs barely pay minimum wage (where something like minimum wage even exists) and the bonuses you get for average time and quality of your call make up a pretty significant part of your final check. I think you can see where this is going.

    Please don’t think that that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be kind and thankful! If the agent did a great job and you are genuinely happy with how they helped you, please do tell them! They will love hearing it. But the moment you ask for their manager, you are extending their call unnecessarily. It also means that that manager/supervisor will be unavailable for truly critical situations while you are on the phone with them, because they do not hang up until things are very definitely resolved. For example, if, at the same time, another really disgruntled customer calls and the handling agent needs urgent feedback from the supervisor, they won’t be able to get it until your call is done. Your agent and their supervisor may act all nice and give you the feeling that they have all the time in the world to listen to your praise, but 99% of the time, they don’t.

    Once again, thank you for being so appreciative of what is truly an ungrateful job :)

    1. Boris*

      I disagree, I’ve worked in these kind of jobs and customer compliments go directly into our performance evaluation and therefore pay. It’s a huge deal.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Perhaps you can ask the rep. Tell them you would like to record a compliment about how well they dealt with the call and ask what the best way for you to do so is.
      It sounds as though that will vary from one organisation to another.

      1. Gaming Teapot*

        True. Every call center I (or any of my friends) have worked at, worked as described above, but apparently there are places that deal differently with call length and manager involvement.

        @OP 5: As Bagpuss says, best way is probably to ask the rep how to best deal with it.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This, and there are often surveys attached to the end of a call–if you really had a good experience, then you can take the phone survey. Also, check their website–they may have a feedback form depending on the company.

  27. Laura*

    Regarding #5, I can’t speak for customer service calls, but as a current retail employee it definitely holds true there. My store has a customer survey printed on the back of the receipt, anyone who fills out the survey and says something nice about us by name is doing us a really nice thing. That’s where the majority of our reviews come from, and if we don’t get that feedback, we can get punished for it.

  29. Call centre worker*

    #5 – I would ask the agent how they’d like you to deliver the feedback. I work in a call centre and am often not on the same shift as my manager, so would rather receive an email I can share with her. Additionally it’s my responsibility to bring any feedback to my performance meetings; my manager isn’t necessarily going to remember a phone call from weeks ago

  30. Hard Boiled*

    #3

    I interview people. From my perspective, your interviewer had two non-jerk options for how to handle this situation:

    a) Politely and apologetically cancel your interview if he really thinks it’s a waste of time.

    b) Interview you anyway to suss out whether you’d be a good option if the other, more qualified interviewees don’t work out or reject the offer.

    Instead, he went with c) Be a jerk. You may be newer to the work world, but it seems to me you handled this interview more professionally than he did. Because the first rule of professionalism is don’t be a jerk.

  31. Triplestep*

    #2, I design office (and other spaces) right down to the furniture, so I know about office furnishings and how they’ve evolved. Even if you are not in the US, it’s very likely that the whole desk would not need to be replaced just to get modesty panels. More often than not, the legs, work surface and wire management pieces are specified separately from several choices within the same furniture line. It sounds like the wire management accessories are interfering where the modesty panel should go – I’ve actually seen this before, but in this case modesty panels were chosen over the wire management basket.

    If I’m right about my assessment here, the request to management could be to simply remove the wire management accessories and install modesty panels – a lot less expensive than replacing a whole desk! If wire management is still needed (the panels should do a lot to hide the wires) there are so many low tech ways to accomplish it, including velcro.

    And OP just so you know, you are not alone. In the very rare instances in the last 20 years where I’ve inadvertently specified a table without a modesty panel, I do hear about it and I have to have the furniture vendor come back in and rectify the situation.

    To those folks here saying they do not have modesty panels, I am skeptical. The way systems furniture is designed now, modesty panels are often a very integral part of the design, helping to keep the desk stable (just like the stretcher bar or apron on your kitchen table) and holding channels to hide wiring. The tables I mention above where they were not included were very short and for special use – not a desk.

      1. LavaLamp*

        The desk I bought from Ikea for my house doesn’t have a modestly/back panel. That’s because it’s not for an office office, it’s meant to be used in a home pushed against a wall where no one is going to see anything anyway.

    4. Purplesaurus*

      This is a great possible solution to OP’s problem! As an aside, the knowledge base from commenters here is pretty damn cool!

      1. Triplestep*

        I know, I was so happy to finally have some technical expertise to contribute to a reader question myself!

    5. Murphy*

      My desk itself does not have a modesty panel, but our divider system between desks (they’re not really cubes) has modesty panels below desk level and another privacy panel above desk level (so that people with desks facing each other don’t have to stare at each other all day).

        1. Triplestep*

          Yup, it was like this in my last workplace, too. We had what’s called “bench” seating … Rows of work surfaces held up by a long beam or panels with brackets below, with table screens on top. No need (either structurally or visually) for a separate modesty panel, just like when a worksurface is affixed to a wall or cubicle panel.

      2. Annie Moose*

        Ours work sort of like this too! There’s a panel attached to the back of each desk, half below and half above the desk surface. The lower half is a modesty panel (slash place-for-me-to-brace-my-feet-against, a position I find unexpectedly comfortable), the upper half gives a little separation so we don’t have to stare at each other and can also function as a bulletin board. There’s nothing on the sides of the desk, but we do have rolling file cabinets that fit under the desks, and it would be easy to position it to block off one side as well, for a little extra privacy.

        1. sap*

          Bracing against the modesty panel is the only way I am comfortable in a normal office chair/desk, too. I had a desk with one that was just hooked on once and I was always unconsciously trying to use it as a brace anyway and kicking the whole thing out.

      3. Chinook*

        I actually worked for accountants who all got new desks without modesty panels which them faced the inner hall through glass walls. Within a week, every glass wall was frosted from waist height down to give the same effect as modesty panels without interferring with the natural light flow into inner offices, which was the inital reason for the desks choaen and the glass walls.

    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’m in the “my desk doesn’t have a modesty panel” camp. I honestly haven’t thought much about it until this discussion! Mine is basically a good sized table. Instead of built-in drawers, I have a separate rolling file cabinet that is intended to fit underneath (though I actually have it parked along side so I can have extra surface space).

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        This means you don’t have a traditional desk! You have a table. :)

        (I have a table, also—my office has weird dimensions, so desks do not work. But my desk is also up against a wall, so I don’t worry about the modesty panel concerns.)

        1. Lady Phoenix*

          Same here. No modesty panel, but everything is against the wall AND I have the privacy of my own office.

          If you don’t have such luxary, and modesty panel is a MUST

        2. Ann O'Nemity*

          Having a private office and the position of my desk help in my case too. You’d have to bend down right in front of the desk to see my knees.

    7. vjt*

      OP#2 — you shouldn’t have to do this, but maybe it would drive the point home to your boss if you all brought in an old tablecloth to throw over your desks and give yourselves a modesty panel?

      2. zora*

        I love the passive agression of this idea. And I would find the ugliest old tablecloth I could find to really be a jerk. ;o)

    8. vjt*

      I’ve actually noticed that in a restaurant, if I’m sitting at a table alone, I want the seat across from me to have its chair present. If there’s no chair across from me, I feel exposed. I would feel uncomfortable enough to look around and see if I could pull a chair from a nearby table into that spot. I recently saw someone sitting at a square four-top with none of the other three chairs present, and I thought how uncomfortable I would be seated that way.

    9. Us, Too*

      You should come to the San Francisco Bay area – the land of the open workspace. Or, for that matter, any other major tech company somewhere else (Austin, Seattle, London, etc). Many of the workplaces look something like this: https://newsroom.fb.com/media-gallery/menlo-park-headquarters/inside-facebook-headquarters/

      20k+ people work in a space like this at Facebook with no modesty panels, cube walls, etc. The idea that the modesty panel is a required/integral part of office space/furniture is definitely being challenged in design.

      I don’t know that I have a strong opinion on modesty panels, per se. TBH, of all my concerns about working in an open work space, the lack of modesty panels is the least of them. Also, even though I work at an “immodest” desk, I don’t have to worry about someone crawling under the sea of open workspace desks to get an eyeful of my undergarments because there is a power strip accessible through a moveable panel in the desktop of every desk – AS THERE SHOULD BE IN GOOD DESK DESIGN in an era in which desks need to hold up electronics items more frequently than paper and pens.

      1. Triplestep*

        Facebook-style designs offer choices for where and how to work. If a farm table leaves you feeling too exposed (it’s not technically office furniture, so yes … no modesty panel) then go sit in a carrell, flex room, lounge area, etc. Modesty panels (or some facsimile) really are standard in free-standing office or open-office commercially available furnishings. I can pretty much guarantee that when you walk into Sheryl Sandberg’s office, you are not seeing her legs under her desk!

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          This is such an important distinction. I think folks don’t realize that sometimes they’re not actually working at a desk, which is why they’re not seeing a privacy panel.

          For example, I used to work in an open office with hot desking, but there weren’t really desks—just tables and benches and all variations of workspaces that weren’t technically desks (even if that’s how they were being used). But there were a handful of “real desks” that were actual office furniture, and those always had some sort of privacy panel or the option to install one. That’s been my experience in all offices that use actual desks, not tables that are modified or used as a desk-substitute. This is also true for conference spaces. Anytime I’ve been in a conference room that uses office furniture to supply its tables, there are privacy panels (even in hotels!). The only time this isn’t the case is when I’ve worked places that buy regular tables and use them to create the conference space.

          1. Triplestep*

            Yes, I probably should have been more specific when expressing my skepticism to all those who said the lack modesty panels. Panels are obviously not needed where the user can’t be approached from in front of the desk, or when the desk is not freestanding. Out in the open – or as the front surface in a traditional office set-up – modesty panels are pretty standard.

            If you look at the picture taken at FB headquarters posted above, those desks are facing each other, so no visual reason for a modesty panel. They employ wire management troughs along the front of the desk that provide some stability between the legs. And if the users decided to rearrange those desks so that you *could* approach them from the front, a modesty panel could likely replace – or work in conjunction with – that trough. This is the nature of office systems furniture.

            It is not, as you point out, the nature of tables!

          2. zora*

            Exactly. We have “desks” that don’t have built in modesty panels, (in a cowork space in SF) BUT the way each office is laid out, desks all face a wall. So we still have privacy under our desks. I would be super uncomfortable if we didn’t and I almost never wear skirts to work anymore.

        2. zora*

          Also, did you look at the picture you posted? The desks face each other, and the power management is at desk level. So, you can’t see under someone’s desk from the front when you walk by, and you are not regularly on the floor looking directly at the neighbor across from you.

          I think this is a different set up than the OP describes, where you can even see people’s skirts from across the room.

          1. zora*

            oops, sorry, I posted this without refreshing, and you had already said the same thing! So yes, agreed and Jinx!

              1. zora*

                my reading comprehension is terrible today, I shouldn’t post when I’m not paying attention. haha

      2. Luna*

        I can’t say I’m surprised that the industry leading this change (tech) is extremely male dominated.

        It’s also my impression that tech/startups tend to have more casual dress codes compared to typical office environments, so there might not be as many employees dressing up.

        1. Julia the Survivor*

          Dressing up or not, I like to wear skirts. There should NOT be furniture discrimination based on a personal preference! Skirts are much more comfortable than pants – they don’t ride up! :o or dig into my waist when I sit down. They’re flexible with weight changes and more versatile and comfortable in every way than pants. Dressing down, denim skirts, dressing up, knit or twill skirts (or vintage skirts or dresses).
          I know some women don’t like wearing nylons and wear pants instead – I love nylons in the summer and warm knit stockings in the winter. Warmer and more comfortable than pants!
          The attitude “we don’t dress up so we don’t have to have modesty panels” is upsetting!

          1. Luna*

            I agree, my point was more that, for a variety of reasons, tech is not the best industry to use as an example of changing norms in this area.

          2. sap*

            I actually don’t think this is the same type of problem for women in a tech open office at all.

            I’ve worked in tech offices before I was in biglaw; I love wearing the type of A-line or pencil skirt that causes the problem #2 is describing.

            And I didn’t wear them in those offices because they generally actually would have been out of step with the office dress culture. Appropriate clothing for me, as a woman, was jeans, or a skirt made out of a less formal material/in a less formal cut, like a cotton skirt or a circle skirt or a maxi skirt. Nobody would have reprimanded me for wearing a pencil skirt, of course, but it would have been outside the norm, like if a man had worn a sport coat regularly. The office didn’t really WANT anyone wearing “office clothes” in that sense, and so it wouldn’t have bothered me that it wasn’t set up with the needs of people who wear office clothes in mind, and I think it would be reasonable for an office where that’s the norm to respond to the one person who wears formal attire anyway with “you can wear whatever makes you feel good to wear, but we’re not going to redesign our furniture to accommodate your decision to deviate significantly from the office dress culture.” Wearing a pencil skirt to work when you could wear LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE, LITERALLY YOU COULD WEAR A GORILLA SUIT INSTEAD AND YOU’D PROBABLY JUST GET HIGH-FIVES, isn’t so much a gendered fashion requirement as a personal fashion choice, and I’d be fine if a tech employer that didn’t really have a dress code beyond “wear them, don’t be a racist about it” took the position that if I want to wear the one thing that will be difficult to navigate in my workspace, that is on me to manage.

            If somebody is MAKING me wear a pencil skirt, they’d better give me a workspace where it will be comfortable to wear a pencil skirt. If someone doesn’t really want me wearing pencil skirts because it’s not really appropriate attire for that workplace but also won’t stop me from wearing a pencil skirt, I don’t think they have the same obligation to make sure I will enjoy wearing a pencil skirt.

      3. zora*

        Just on the power management piece, I completely agree. When I took over as Admin at my office, I reorganized all the cabling and put a power strip ON TOP of each desk for the computers/phone chargers, etc. Everyone’s mind was blown, they were so used to power strips being on the floor and having to crawl under the desk to plug their phones in every day. I don’t even understand why it’s such a revolutionary idea in some places. But it makes our lives so much easier!

        1. Triplestep*

          Good thinking! Most furniture companies have added “convenience outlets” for desktops to their offerings, and there are many third-party companies that offer them as well. Do a ‘net search on the name “Doug Mockett” to see some cool solutions.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          It’s wonderful. At Exjob, I had a power strip / cube outlets underneath (cube farm) but in the conference rooms, there were outlets on the tables themselves. I’d worked in very low-tech offices and that amazed me. I thought it was the best thing ever. No fighting over laptop outlets during a meeting; no crawling around or stumbling over cords stretching across the floor.

      4. Kate 2*

        Yeah, but those are tech companes, they have way lower standards for dress. You’d stick out like a sore thumb if you wore business casual there. Every person in that picture seems to be wearing jeans.

    10. Competent Commenter*

      My nice work furniture suite was moved to someone else’s office and I got an old crappy desk for about a year until I was able to negotiate for suitable furniture again. One thing that made the desk especially crappy was that the modesty panel was removed. The desk was against the wall so it didn’t matter for visual privacy, but the desk totally lost its stability. Someone had put a small metal braces in the corners but that was insufficient. The desk swayed sideways until they came up with the great idea to brace it against a utility box close to the floor. Charming. So yeah, those panels are for stability too, folks.

    11. Nerdling*

      That fits with my experience when we moved offices and ordered new furniture about three years ago. Our workstations are highly modular, and one of the pieces we had the option to add (as a whole office, interestingly, not desk by desk, because heaven forbid we give each person what they actually need) was a modesty panel. The only reason we didn’t get them is that half the desks face walls and the other half have tall filing cabinets that cover the front and act as modesty panels. If not for those filing cabinets, you bet your sweet bippy I’d have advocated for the modesty panels even though the employees are mostly male.

  32. fun fact*

    #1, this is fundamentally a boundaries issue. You can’t make Jane do anything. You *can* a) refuse to cover for her slowness/inefficiency/failure to do her work, b) tell your manager she has these substantial deficits and needs specific training around them, c) start refusing to answer questions from Jane that are about basic computer functions rather than specifics of her job (i.e. do your normal job as a trainer, but only that).

  33. Bookworm*

    #5: As someone whose first job was in retail with heavy phone work I can tell you this is much appreciated. It helped me stand out from the slew of other temps (most of whom were just there for the pay and discount anyway) and the store wanted to promote me. I also try to pass along positive feedback because I know who what it’s like to only hear from supervisors or whoever when someone’s unhappy and agree with the advice: no need to go on and on but a sentence or two is helpful. I find that the people who take the message do genuinely seem pleased to hear a co-worker or their organization is getting kudos.

  34. AdAgencyChick*

    #3, not only was your interviewer a jerk, he was also pretty short-sighted. If his preferred candidate had ended up rejecting the offer, that would have been poetic justice (and it happens often enough that any hiring manager should know not to count chickens before they hatch).

  35. Rebecca*

    #1 – I’m in this boat! Jane is my trainee!!

    “It seems whenever she has a questions she wants someone to walk her through it instead of first trying to find an answer herself.” This, a thousand times! No matter how many times I’ve gone over things, she wants an answer instead of trying to find the answer first, as in, building on the training so she understands the situation at hand and can act on it. When I say (or others who are trying to train her on other tasks) “based on what we’ve reviewed, where can you find that answer?” she gets huffy and snippy. She actually said “Fine, I’ll just do it myself!”. Yes! That’s what you’re supposed to do! You were hired to do things! Honestly at this point, I’ve really had enough. And yes, I have expressed this to my manager (as have others) which leads me to the next point, from Alison’s answer.

    “Your job isn’t to find a way to help Jane succeed at all costs, even when it takes you well beyond the scope of what you were asked to train her on. It’s to do the training you were asked to do, and to loop in her manager if there are obstacles to that.”

    This is so interesting, because my manager literally told me it is up to me to make Jane happy in her job, that she needs to succeed, and I need to be patient, kind, smiling, etc. I have done everything I possibly could to train this person, but it is apparent that she is not an independent thinker, and I think she’s the wrong fit for this particular role. I have expressed this to management. I need to work more with her. Ugh.

    I’m going to pop back later to see if there are any suggestions and read the other posts. I’m so glad this came up! Especially after yesterday’s episode, when I asked her to correct the name in an email she was sending. She totally misspelled the person’s name. It was phonetically correct but not spelled correctly, and when I said “OK, before you send it, please correct the spelling of recipient’s name…” and she huffed at me and sighed. I was going to say, when sending business emails, it’s important to address people properly, but whatever.

    2. Morag*

      I’ve been in this situation and it’s more than annoying. But the OP’s Jane has a good attitude and is trying – she’s just in over her head. It seems worth it to talk to the manager and get her some training. Also, some of the things the OP is noticing are just differences in how to do things – I’m pretty good at Office and I still use the drop down to close a file – it’s quicker for me than fumbling around for a button.

      1. Scarlet*

        I wouldn’t say she has a good attitude when it seems she’s not being proactive at all in trying to find a solution and is overly reliant on OP to just come and solve her problems. OP also suggested specific training and Jane refused.
        Training a computer-illiterate person is very time-consuming. Been there, done that.

    3. fun fact*

      “it is up to me to make Jane happy in her job”

      …Does your manager understand that you can’t actually ‘make’ another person feel anything? Especially ‘happy in their job’ when it doesn’t sound like they can be bothered doing it.

    4. sssssssssss*

      Your Jane sounds like she’s a poor fit for the job, period. If that’s how she takes criticism about obvious mistakes like misspelling a client’s name, she doesn’t belong there. Apparently a Jane like that was hired at my current job…and her inefficiency has resulted in no one wanting to give her work but no one also wants to take the time to per her on a PIP, etc.

      Next time you see her misspelling a name, or similar, let her and let her fall down in her job. If you’re called out on it as a training issue, you can push back and say that some things should be obvious…

      A similar Jane was hired (for a job I was turned down for). It wasn’t that she didn’t know Windows 7 yet and was only familiar with XP – her previous job was still using pencil and paper! Basic time sheet entry was shown to her three times. Her managers finally decided to pay for her to take a Win 7 / Office 2007 course and she decided to take more courses on her own dime. She knew she was deficient but she was trying very hard, at least. The money saved in hiring her was wasted, however, in her lack of efficiency and the cost of the courses.

      I worked with another Jane who would never Google things but ask me where to find/how to do things that I didn’t know and had to Google myself (because I didn’t use them often enough) and she would ask in a strange wheedling Oh please help me whine…and she was extremely well paid for her job title and she expected me to sit with her all day for a week to train her; I made it clear that I was given no such expectation, there would be no such training (I gave her a few half days spread over two weeks) and expected her to figure the rest out. At her job title and salary and given her age and supposed experience, her expectations were not reasonable. She was such a poor fit. She didn’t last.

    5. Myrin*

      Is there something special about Jane that makes your manager so focused on her happiness? Or is it his policy that all new hires must be kept happy by established employees?

      1. Rebecca*

        I heard through the grapevine that she was under contract at a temp agency, and our company paid money (have no idea how much) to release her from the contract. My guess is they don’t want to “lose the investment” but honestly, that’s not my problem. If she’s not a good fit, better to move on IMO.

    6. Lil Fidget*

      I have had this with new trainees, and I’ve probably been this new trainee myself. When you’re trying to learn something, you just want the fastest, easiest solution to your immediate problem, and if it’s easiest to ask, you’re going to ask. That’s why when I’m not in the mood to be peppered with little questions, I don’t make it easy to ask me. I have them write down all their questions until a pre-set meeting time (almost all the questions are resolved by then), or I tell them I’m busy for the next hour and can’t be disturbed, or I let them ask but then say I’ll have to get back to them. Also I make it slightly uncomfortable for them to ask repeatedly by being absorbed in my work, not looking up from the screen when interrupted. Mysteriously, they suddenly find it easier to answer their own questions / bug someone else instead of me after a few unsatisfying attempts.

      1. TootsNYC*

        And this comment (and the general stream) reminds me that I owe a big debt to my mother, whose response to a question about “what does this word mean?” was, “Look it up. We have a dictionary.”

        If I ever said, “Oh, I don’t care enough; I won’t bother,” she made me get the dictionary, bring it to her, and look it up. And then explain it to her.

        That’s why I am the person who can find out anything.

    7. Observer*

      Well, I think that Alison was addressing the more typical and reasonable expectations. Your boss sounds like they aren’t being very smart. Either that, or your Jane has some “protection” for some reason.

    8. This Daydreamer*

      Oh, good grief. How are you supposed to make Jane happy in her job? Pipe in nitrous oxide through the air conditioning ducts? Hire her own set of cheerleaders? Daily massage and mani-pedi? Do her job for her?

      I hope your manager remembers to do her blasted job soon, because there are always going to be employees who will never work out in any given role. Good luck!

    9. JessaB*

      Part of the problem at least initially with “look it up yourself,” is that this is a skill. And if your Jane is not computer literate, they don’t have that skill on a computer. They might know how to look it up in a library (maybe,) but if they don’t know computer skills, that won’t be happening.

      I’ve done freelance research for a living. And you’d be surprised how many people do not know how to “look it up.” They have no idea how to formulate a search query that gets them the information they want. And that’s both in a physical library or on a computer. One of the biggest questions I get is, “how did you find that so fast?” Because they’re not stupid people, but they don’t have the skills of how to look things up, they’re the people that in the boonie pre-computer days either went to the reference librarian, or called the NY Public Library information line. Heck I still have the NYPL infoline on my speed dial, because sometimes even I get stumped and I haven’t lived in NY in 30 years.

      Librarians are being phased out so much in schools and other areas, that the critical thinking skills and problem solving behaviours that used to be taught aren’t anymore. Remember when we were littles and we were taking to the school library and taught how to take care of books, and where to find things and what a card catalogue was? I date myself here.

      I addition to a list of “how to do x,” Jane may need an actual checklist of how to “Look it up.”

    10. WellRed*

      Won’t solve the bigger issue that your manager sucks, but if someone sighs and huffs at me, I might say something, like, “I’m sorry, is there a problem?” in the moment.

  36. Tim C.*

    #1:
    “I will say she is trying really hard and learning.” “Multiple times I’ve suggested she look up online tutorials and she says she doesn’t know how to dig through that stuff or doesn’t have the time. Or I’ve pointed her towards free computer courses, and again she cites not having time.”

    But she is NOT trying really hard. She is taking the easy road and asking you to be her help-desk instead of learning to function on her own. People who are trying hard will recognize the problem and listen to coaching. If you have executed your training and tutorials as requested, you could refuse to help her or direct her to her manager.

    1. sssssssssss*

      “Multiple times I’ve suggested she look up online tutorials and she says she doesn’t know how to dig through that stuff or doesn’t have the time…” = translation: please send me the link so I don’t have to look it up myself.

      She enables her own helplessness.

      1. JessaB*

        Actually it’s also just as possible that someone computer illiterate has no darned clue how to look up a tutorial, how to judge whether said tutorial will give the information they need, whether they have the programme necessary to participate in said tutorial, etc. Also depending on the job they may not have access to those things (not all websites are accessible at all jobs,) and a lot of people are not going to learn job needed skills when they’re not being paid to. The fact that the job didn’t screen for this knowledge either means they’re not paying attention that not everyone has it, or they don’t think it’s important.

        But there’s a…I don’t know how to phrase this…presumption that everyone knows a certain thing, I guess. That someone who doesn’t know how to exit a programme without doing “file, exit,” actually has the net skills needed to Google-fu a course on Excel that’s not too little nor too much for what they need in the moment, and is something they can access and participate in. And that their job will give them the TIME to access and complete it. Not everyone has any time left after work to do those things. They have responsibilities.

        And it’s very much on the people who hired her having no idea she didn’t know this stuff, and then having NO plan to get her truly up to speed, which actually probably means a couple of days of computer training that has nothing to do with actual WORK getting done. It may even mean a couple of games of “learn to properly control a mouse,” aka MS Solitaire.

        But if the OP needs to teach her the basic computer skills, then this has to happen and OP’s work and Jane’s work needs to be covered for a day. Someone who knows their stuff can probably get her up to basic speed in a work day, and yes that may mean giving her links to stuff to watch/do.

        However, for this to happen, management needs to be told it needs to happen.

        1. NaoNao*

          You know, this is a good point. I get super titchy when someone busts onto a forum or FB discussion and asks (I picture it in a high pitched toddler voice) “What is [this thing I could *easily Google*]?”
          I politely mini-flamed someone on a FB forum called “etsy sellers” who apparently knew enough about smart phones and computers to ask her question “what is etsy” with a *custom FB background* to her post, and yet…Google-fu skills, she had none, apparently.
          It didn’t occur to me at the time that “Google first, and THEN ask the masses at large your n00b question” isn’t really an option for everyone!

        2. SoCalHR*

          I agree JessaB – I remember as a child asking how to spell something and a (not favorite) teacher told me to look it up in the dictionary, so I tried. After about 5 mins she came to help me because if I don’t know how to spell the word then I can’t really look it up in the dictionary, can I ?! I think this is a reasonable analogy that someone who isn’t computer literate would have trouble just finding a tutorial on a computer to make them more computer literate.

          1. SarahKay*

            Exciting. Which, if you don’t know how to spell it, you’re not going to find in a dictionary, because who’d expect that ‘c’ after the ‘x’?!?
            I was ten; this is 30+ years later. No, I’m not bitter, why do you ask?

            1. JessaB*

              Exactly. For years my parents followed “look it up in the dictionary/encyclopaedia” with a walkthrough of how you do that. How you sound out words to figure out how they may be spelt, how you figure out a keyword to look up in an encyclopaedia.

              It IS easier these days when checking spelling or meaning, you can type into Google “exite, spelling?” and get ideas of what you might be trying for and if that doesn’t work you can try a few more phonetic spellings. Also most smartphones nowadays can do voice recognition so even if you don’t have Siri, or Google Voice or any of those assistant programmes, you can open a text file and say “this excites me” and it will type it down and you’ll get the spelling. You just have to say the word.

              but yes merely saying look it up without making sure the person you say it to has the skills to look something up, is not good

    2. Ainomiaka*

      I think this is a bit unfair. It’s easy to say “she can look for things on her own” when you are comfortable and familiar with the underlying fundamentals. But how well would you do being expeexpected to do something like surgery when “there’s references available”?
      Now, I concur that Jane needs actual classes not constant help from OP. But there’s a reason those classes exist.

      1. fposte*

        But it’s not like surgery–it’s something that millions of people learn on their own, and nobody dies.

        1. Ainomiaka*

          Throughout the world millions of people teach themselves to drive but that doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

          1. Kate 2*

            Um, wildly inaccurate comparison. There’s a reason most countries license drivers and nobody licenses “googlers”. A bad one of the former will kill people. The latter will not.

        2. Scarlet*

          So true. Absolutely no-one taught me how to use a computer or Google or anything like that. I understand that a lot of people have no idea how to google, but it’s not rocket science, it can be explained in a few minutes.
          And BTW, OP suggested Jane take classes, but she “doesn’t have the time”.

      2. Murphy*

        But if I were being asked to do surgery and didn’t have the fundamental knowledge to do so, I would take the suggestion to get more training.

        1. Ainomiaka*

          Oh, I agree. I would too and don’t think Jane is right to refuse the classes. The advice to bring it to someone that has the power to force the issue is absolutely correct. But let’s not pretend that’s it’s just a trivial matter that Jane can’t do.

          1. JessaB*

            But it also matters if Jane can afford classes or if they’re free, and if she has the time/ability to go to them if they are physical classes, if they’re online does she have the necessary basic skills to find and access said classes, to evaluate their usefulness, etc. She doesn’t have the basic skills to access and close a programme the short cut way. Where is she supposed to get the skills to find a course. Also not everyone has any time outside of work. So it may behoove them if they want to keep her to choose a course and sit her in front of it.

        2. nonegiven*

          If I were being asked to do surgery, I’d nope the heck out of there. Not fainting isn’t something I can Google my way out of.

      3. SarahTheEntwife*

        Agree! Not everyone is a self-starter or is used to searching documentation in that way. Depending on her knowledge level, she may also have a much harder time finding things than someone with basic literacy who needs to learn specific tools/procedures. Below a certain level it’s hard to even know what terms you’re supposed to be searching for. And this is exactly what a class would teach.

      4. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        I’m with you here. I consider myself a fairly advanced (or at least solid intermediate-advanced Word/Excel user), but it’s only because I have a very good idea underlying fundamentals. Sometimes I’m not sure how to do some REALLY basic things off the top of my head, but give me 15 seconds for a google search and my memory’s been jogged. As the same time – I can do super advanced things, only because I have a very good idea of what excel is capable of and know to search for certain phrases.

        This also kind of reminds me of my fourth grade teacher (that’s how strongly this stuck out to me!) – whenever anyone asked her how to spell something she responded “look it up in the dictionary”. Which struck my little 4th grade brain as completely incomprehensible. How can I find it in the dictionary if I don’t know how to spell it!?! Full stop. That’s as far as I could get at the time.

        As an adult I do get it – start with the beginning of the word, until you get to the part you’re unsure of then take your best guess. If it’s not there, go back to the part you’re unsure of and try another option. However, my 4th grade brain really could have used some more specific instructions/reframing. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to take the time to look it up, it’s that it genuinely didn’t occur to how to do this.

        Whenever I get frustrated with someone for “not looking it up on their own” or for failing to comprehend something that seems quite obvious I’m working on halting the judginess, think about my 4th grade brain and then try to approach the issue from my 4th grade brain’s position.

        Of course there are some people who are truly lazy and do truly refuse to look things up on their own, but since I’ve started approaching things this way I find that it’s pretty rare and that trying to break things down (or looking it at from my 4th grade brain perspective) really does the trick most of the time.

      5. neverjaunty*

        “How about you do the incisions for me? And maybe go find the retractors? I don’t have time to learn how” is not really an appropriate alternative if your job requires you to do surgery.

        1. Ainomiaka*

          And this is what the lw is telling Jane. So I agree with your point, but think the vitriol is misdirected.

        2. JessaB*

          Yes but someone who hires someone to do surgery is going to ask for absolute proof that they were trained to do surgery. They will ask for an MD and a specialisation in some kind of surgery. They might not be for instance eye specialists, but coming in with an MD and a surgery specialty means that they can learn eyes, and have the knowledge to do that.

          In Jane’s case they hired her and didn’t ask can you do surgery. Jane is to take the medical analogy further an LPN. Not even an RN or someone with further training, heck Jane could be a medical assistant.

          1. JessaB*

            The problem here is that society as a whole has come to the point where there is a base presumption that people have certain skills to the point that they no longer ASK for them. The days of a resume that said “uses computers, knows Excel, MS Word, etc.” are gone.

            All job seekers no matter what the level are expected to have basic Google skills and general computer knowledge. Only if the person is disabled in some way or is significantly older does this not apply. Even though many older people have these skills. Anyone born after around 1990 is expected to know this stuff. So nobody asked Jane. They should have, but they didn’t. And Jane having no point of reference presumed she could do the job

      6. sap*

        Right, that’s fine.

        But also probably if someone hired you to perform surgery (which I’m charitably assuming is what happened to Jane–not that she claimed to know how to perform surgery), you would probably not tell the person who was training you on your employer’s specific suture technique that you needed them to teach you how to perform sutures generally because you didn’t want to read the textbook section about how to perform ANY suture AT ALL because you didn’t have time/didn’t know how to read that type of book.

        If you had never learned a technique by reading about it before, i t’s true that you’d probably be correct in your assessment that you wouldn’t be able to learn everything you would need to already know about sutures from reading the textbook because you would probably lack the underlying skill of learning surgical techniques from a textbook. And it’s true that there are surgeons who know about sutures overall but don’t know the base stitch that they’re trying to teach you how to modify who could go read the textbook and come back with enough information, and that they could do that because they already have the underlying literacy that is used when doing that.

        But your employer wouldn’t be unreasonable if they didn’t want to teach you how to read a surgical textbook; some skills are assumed when you’re taking a certain type of job. In today’s market, being able to look up how to do tasks like creating a new excel workbook is a skill that someone being hired to do clerical work is expected to already have. If I hire someone who claims to be computer literate, I expect them to have the skill of using at least one of google, the built in “help” tool in almost every program, or a standard set of troubleshooting knowledge that will allow them to safely experiment on their own to solve problems that aren’t complicated-just like I would expect a surgeon who doesn’t know how to perform an appendectomy to read about the procedure before asking someone to help her understand its steps. A database worker who thinks “oh, this program calls it a ‘floog’ rather than a worksheet, if you search the tutorial for floog you should be able to find it” isn’t a reasonable level of guidance during training is just as unqualified for that job as a surgeon who would want more than “oh, this is an appendectomy, go read about how to perform them and come back when you’ve absorbed the procedure and I can answer questions about specific steps/how we do it using this weird tool.”

      1. MommyMD*

        Cut off. Jane is not a proactive employee. She does not appear to have the skill set for the job and doesn’t appear interested in actually developing it.

        1. JessaB*

          Except that the skill set appears to have “knows how to find the information she does not have.” in it. And she doesn’t know how to do that. I’m inclined given the “closes programmes with file/close,” statement to give her the benefit of she’s not lazy at least at first. You can’t develop something you do not know how to develop and the HOW is a skill. Skills need to be taught.

  37. Ainomiaka*

    LW 4- I can’t 100% tell if you are saying you think you could still toss your hat in the ring for this job or if you meant other openings on the team in the future. If the 1st, I think your conversation needs to include something like “of course I’ll give feedback if it’s critical, but in light of what I told you about my interest in the position I am probably the wrong person to offer feedback.” This is not just information the decision makers need to know to check a box and then go on. If you are going to offer feedback I think you really need to recuse yourself. Humans completely delude ourselves about how objective we can be. Just trying to be objective isn’t enough.

  38. C.*

    For #1, if you think bringing this up might lead to pushback or her manager not taking it seriously, I would recommend focusing your comments on issues Jane has that directly impacts her work. That she uses file –> close really stuck out at me in your letter, because that’s not technically anything wrong with doing it that way. My mom does that, and it drives me insane because there’s an X button right there, but it’s not an incorrect way of closing a document (and some document management programs require it). Bringing up something like that may cause her manager to hear “Jane’s not doing things the way I prefer” and not take any action.

  39. Nox*

    #1) as a manager, I would be placing this employee on a PIP with the idea that Jane is to start finding the time to take classes to perform the required functions of her role or find a new job. I dislike enabling people who refuse to learn and expect a life float for basic tasks.

    5.) Call center person here. I need to slightly disagree with the advise provided by AAM. I actually would advise customers not ask for the supervisor as the transfer to escalations should only be used for actual escalations. Transfer to these lines is monitored closely to ensure thers no call avoidance going on. The other thing is that if you do ask to speak to one for this reason, the feedback really doesn’t go anywhere because it’s not trackable in the way you might think for the agents future performance review.

    If you REALLY want to help recognize agent performance PLEASE TAKE THE CSAT SURVEY CALL YOU MAY RECIEVE. I use all caps cause these are always ignored and yet that’s the SOLE way an agent is measured for service excellence. At call centers I’ve been in we coach our agents to educate well meaning customers that if they want to help they need to perform that 2 minute survey because it’s recorded directly to the scorecard as well as audio in the recording system.

    The more you know!

    1. Ainomiaka*

      Okay, slightly related call center etiquette question- what do I do if the agent was wonderful but totally not empowered to solve my problem? If they ask do I feel satisfied with my service, the answer is 100% no, but I don’t want that taken out on the agent.

      1. headache on a plane*

        I wouldn’t leave a review in that case. I’d be too worried negative feedback would be taken the wrong way.

      2. Someone else*

        It depends on how the question is phrased. Our surveys have a separate “how did you feel about the service you got FROM THIS PERSON” vs “how did you feel about the resolution to this issue overall”? I’m bungling the wording here, but the point is part of the survey are about the specific interaction you had with a person, and others are about our company in general. So, while one may affect the other, we’d mostly only judge the CSR on the questions that actually asked about them.
        I don’t know if other companies do this, but we also have a process that scans the survey numeric answers and the free-text option we have at the end and basically….if we can tell that someone obviously misready our numbering system (1 is a low score, but their answer to “anything you’d like to tell us” was “Y’all are super awesome!”) we have a method of flagging that survey as bad so it doesn’t go inter overall scores…or possibly flipping it…I forget which. Managers do also check for things like a person giving a CSR all bad scores for an issue that was “Do your product do this?” and the answer was “no it doesn’t” and yet they give the CSR a bad score on how helpful or knowledgeable they were. If the person knew exactly what you were talking about, and was friendly and helpful, but you just don’t like the answer, it’s So.Not.Cool. to give someone bad scores. We also tend to ignore those when evaluating individual CSRs.
        I imagine giant companies probably don’t bother trying to sift out that sort of thing though.

  40. MuseumChick*

    #1, let me add to the voices saying 1) Speak to Jane’s manager. and 2) Speak to Jane. When she asks you how to do something you have shown her before take a moment to say something like “Jane, unfortunately I am not able to keep taking time out of my work day to keep going over this. Consider looking into the tutorials and classes I mentioned before. The expectation is that you are able to X, Y, Z on your own.”

  41. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    LW #5 Yes! Let the managers know when you get great service! I can tell you as a former call center manager that we liked nothing better than to speak to someone who wasn’t screaming at us, and any positive customer comments went into an agent’s file and were taken into consideration when it was time to award merit increases. I do the same thing now – it can make several peoples’ day!

  42. Rusty Shackelford*

    #3, I had something similar happen a million years ago, but it didn’t happen until the end of the interview. I asked about their timeline for hiring, and my interviewer said she wasn’t sure, they were going to have to advertise the job again because they weren’t happy with their pool of candidates. Oh, okay. :-/ If she’d revealed earlier that none of the applicants were good enough, I don’t know if I would have had the cojones to say “okay, let’s not waste any more of our mutual time then” and walk out.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I wish I had done this when it happened to me. I showed up to the interview and the lady said she had already made the decision to hire someone else, but wanted to “get to know me” anyway. I think it was kindly meant but I should have found a way to politely walk out.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Hmmmm. Because that’s what I might actually suggest someone do, if they had an interview scheduled and it was sort of late to cancel. But only if they might actually find the info about the person useful someday.

        Or, that this might be a way for the interviewee to approach it: “Oh, well, then could we talk about what roles I might someday be a candidate for, inside your company, when those jobs come open in the future?”

        1. tangerineRose*

          I’d also be trying to make a good impression on the interviewer, hoping to get a different job at the company. Although if the interview was deciding to be a jerk, I wouldn’t want to work for them.

  43. Laura H*

    Op#1, what about providing Jane with a thorough but as small as possible hard copy ‘how to’ of frequently used tasks, in addition to going to her manager? Especially if they’ve been repeatedly asked about?

    And while I’m having difficulty fathoming such a lack of basic computer knowledge, I do understand the concept of the (minor) learning curve that always comes with truly new to you tech. And while the transition to a smart phone from a nonsmartphone isn’t as commonplace as it used to be… I think it might still be a good example. I’m still learning what I can do on mine 5 years post-transition. There’s still prolly basic stuff I don’t know how to/ that it can even do. I’m in my mid/late 20s- not sure whether or not that makes me a digital native- regardless, a step back to consider things like this in your own life could well be helpful in reframing this situation (as well as help with the how to for specific parts)

    Good luck. :)

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I disagree with this approach unless OP is responsible for training a lot of staff on basic computer skills. It’s not part of your job to do this, and Jane probably won’t use the guide anyway.

    2. neverjaunty*

      But shouldn’t Jane be creating her own little book, by writing things down when the OP has told her how to do them?

      1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        Agreed, early in my career I was moved into a data analyst role with no experience. My boss sent me to a SQL intro class and dubbed me a data analyst. As you can imagine I really had no idea what I was doing and had a lot of help from a coworker.

        You bet your bum, I wrote everything down so that I could refer back to the sample queries. I felt so guilty over the hand holding that I made sure I showed her my notes and I would refer back to them in my questions so she knew I was using them “So I tried x that you gave me last week and it got close to what I’m after, but it didn’t really work as needed it, is there something I can change in this query that will give me result z?”

        Later when I trained analysts I would show them my book and say “This is the only reason I’m here to train you today. Here’s a blank one, it should always be in arms reach. I still use mine to jog my memory years later”.

        1. Kitten*

          I’m a Business Analyst turned Configuration Consultant and I makes notes on *everything*! I am the Queen of ‘where to find that in the manual’ because my hard-copy is colour-flagged to death.

          My personal rule for quick questions is that if I have to ask something more than 3 times, I *have* to write it down and never ask that same question again.

          Back when I was a BA, I had a lady who needed re-training on the same process every. single. day. I wrote mountains of documents for her. I recorded training videos. Eventually, I had to go to *my* boss and explain that she needed either to make her own notes and follow them, or let someone else do the job because 90% of my time was being spent on one person and the actual fee-earners were missing out.

          She was a lovely lady, and always really polite and kind, but there’s a point where people need to take responsibility for their own learning. I felt horrible having to escalate it, but it did solve the problem (she ended up changing seats and sitting next to the other people with a similar role, so they could support each other and only the difficult queries came back to my team).

  44. Buffy Summers*

    For #2 – I’m curious, if OP pushes back, couldn’t the manager just say stop wearing skirts? Obviously he’s a terrible jerk of a manager if he did that, but I’m just wondering if he couldn’t just demand that all employees wear trousers and then you’d have a situation where you’d just have to suck it up and deal with it or find another job.

    1. fposte*

      “So you’re saying that all the women in the office need to purchase a special wardrobe for the job but the men don’t?”

          1. Anna*

            I have a friend whose skillset is so unique and desired that he works in a corporate office building for a very large bank on one of the top floors and wears utilikilts, t-shirts, and boots on the reg. If he’s not in a kilt, he’s sporting a pair of cargo shorts.

      2. Buffy Summers*

        Sorry – I’m not sure how to take your reply to my comment. I’m not saying that women should purchase a special wardrobe – I was just curious how that might play out if the manager’s answer was just “stop wearing skirts”. This is not a workable solution that I’m advocating, so I hope you realize that.

        1. fposte*

          Right, and I’m offering up a response that points out to the manager that the disparate impact of his/her response could make it illegally discriminatory.

  45. Fabulous*

    #5 – I’ve wanted to do this on a couple occasions too but (oddly enough) hadn’t thought about asking for a manager! I think it’s great when we can do that, lets the company know they’ve got a great employee on their hands.

    I actually had a really great Comcast representative help me a couple years ago (I think her name was Irma, if she’s still out there!) that I really wanted to give feedback on. I was hoping to be forwarded to a satisfaction survey but it never connected. Irma was the second rep I had spoken to regarding an overbilling matter; the first guy actually hung up on me and I was super angry when I called back in too. Irma was great, actually listened to the problem, found the error, and fixed it. I at least told her that I really really really appreciated her service and that she was a wonderful help!

  46. Candi*

    #3 -There’s a letter in the more recent archives of someone who ran into the ‘more qualified candidates since they applied’ issue. In that case, the interviewer was kind enough to cancel the interview to save both of their time. (The letter was because that letter writer didn’t recognize the cancellation for the consideration it was.)

    That’s what this interviewer should have done. It would have stung, yes, but it would have been better for both of you.

    That he kept the interview and said something so nasty tells me he was definitely being a jerk; it’s the combination of factors that add up to his bad attitude.

    Congratulations on the job you have, and I know you’ll be awesome at it.

  47. The Claims Examiner*

    #5 – Yes always give positive feedback. We do have a hard job! I also do this for my coworkers when I feel like they have gone above and beyond for me. When you work in a company with 6,000 people and don’t know who is who because of compartmentalization, some people really do stand out.

  48. Gadget Hackwrench*

    #5: DO IT. People in the customer service fields, Retail, Phone Services, Waitstaff, Amusement Park Staff, Hospitality Workers, etc, routinely get negative feedback from people who are, to put it bluntly, entitled jerks. They don’t get the price they want, or the answer they want, or can’t bully the service worker and so they complain to management. (See: Not Always Right for a ton of examples.) Add to that the fact that most service jobs are the kind of jobs where when they are done well it’s generally not noticed, and each time someone actually takes the time to put in POSITIVE feedback, it has a very heavy weight. If you get someone who did their job well and you want them to keep having that job, definitely DO take the time to tell someone what you liked about them. Positive feedback is gold to service industry personnel.

  49. Dzhymm*

    #2: If the manager is male then he may not be aware that this is an issue (“upskirt voyeur videos” notwithstanding). Years ago when I was a pup fresh out of college I was putting together a knockdown desk, and the instructions referred to a certain piece as a “modestly panel”. I’m a guy, and the wheels needed to turn for a fairly long time before I finally realized what it was and why it was called that…

    1. OP2*

      It is an issue. Last time the office moved and got new desks, the modesty panels were overlooked, a concern was raised, modesty panels were installed. Then we moved again, new desks, NO MODESTY BOARDS. Same boss. Short memory

  50. BadPlanning*

    If you office is casual, modesty/privacy panels are good for men as well. Knee length shorts on men have a similar exposure effect as knee length skirts.

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      Oh god, I’m flashing back to that Friends episode with Phoebe’s athlete boyfriend…

  51. Chloe Silverado*

    Yeah, I actually almost always do things the long way. I learned how to use a computer in the early 90s and that’s how I was taught. At this point, file > save is basically a muscle memory but I might have to take a second to look for the disk icon.

    With that said, I wouldn’t even notice how a trainee was closing programs if they were doing it quickly and confidentially. I wonder if what the OP is actually noticing is that Jane appears hesitant or confused when told to close a program and begins scanning the menus looking for something that says close. I’ve had that happen with trainees before and it has been indicative of a need for some formal training in the software.

  52. Bad Candidate*

    #5 YES YES YES I worked in a call center and these types of things are not only appreciated, they are often shared with the employee and the entire department. At my old job you would get a helium balloon at your desk (so the whole floor could see) and a small prize. Everyone knew that those balloons meant that you had gotten a customer compliment.

  53. JC*

    OP#2, absolutely complain! About a year ago my office was consolidated and many of us moved to empty offices on another floor. Most of the desks were full desks that don’t leave you exposed, but one of my (female) employees was moved to a desk that was more of a countertop and didn’t shield what’s under the desk from view. I assigned her to the desk, and I’m a woman who often wears dresses to work, but it didn’t occur even to me that the desk would be a problem when wearing a dress/skirt without having sat down at it myself.

    She complained and we got her a new desk. And I’m glad she did. I hope you can find someone with the power to make changes at your office who will take you seriously. It could help if there’s a high-up woman you could appeal to, who knows what it’s like to feel exposed in a skirt.

  54. Gary*

    OP3: Your interviewer is just one of the many of pinheads you’ll meet in your life. Ignore him and thank a supernatural deity of your choosing that you found this out before you wasted more time on him and his company.

  55. rolling*

    if all women wore pants, this would be a nonissue. I do prefer modesty panels and feel weird without one because of the cultural taboo against women sitting with knees apart, even if wearing pants. I would like to see more female pants wearing because skirts just reinforce gender differences which should be downplayed in the workplace so we can all just relate to each other as people according to the quality of our work. I really don’t understand the point of revealing your legs at work. I guess I truly am “modest”!

    1. JC*

      Women like wearing skirts for all kinds of reasons, but I personally find dresses more comortable than pants. But either way, no one’s going to forget that I’m a woman just because I have pants on.

    2. Temperance*

      I am a woman and Feminist, and I hardly ever wear pants. I’m short, and I would rather buy a dress that flatters me than pants that don’t fit well and I have to spend money hemming, and I hate the look of hemmed pants, so.

      I disagree that women wearing traditionally male-coded clothing is “reinforcing gender differences”. Maybe if men wore skirts and dresses there would be less of that, I guess.

      2. Jesca*

        LOL x1000. My motto is always if you want to spot an unhelpful comment in regards to gender inequality, look to see if it aligns with what would be considered a woman looking/acting more “male” to balance out the perceived “gender differences”. Any gender differences are literally in one’s own mind and women do not wear skirts to sexualize themselves LOL.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          +1000 – that the solution to gender inequality is for women to be/act/dress more like men is 100% ridiculous.

          1. Lady Phoenix*

            Yup. It just reinforces the idea that being as close to the masculine ideal is preferable than feminity

        2. Kate 2*

          Love, love, love this! I have some very traditionally feminine hobbies, and I used to (and still do) get the “Why don’t you do something more traditionally masculine aka valuable instead?” Especially from “hippie” feminists and “extreme” feminists. Because I guess we’re not good feminists if we actually choose to do things we enjoy in our free time and see traditionally female things as also being valuable and important. I was so grateful when I read a craft book (Stitch n Bitch) that explained what was wrong with their attitude.

    3. vjt*

      A. I don’t want my crotch on display in pants any more than I want it on display in a skirt and B. EYEROLL

    4. Lil Fidget*

      I prefer skirts in the summer because the city gets hot. I wish men got to wear skirts more often. I don’t see “all women should wear pants” as a good response to this issue.

    5. JennyAnn*

      Yeah, this comment really isn’t that helpful. I’m currently in the process of losing a fairly significant amount of weight, which means my clothes have to adjust for my changing body shape. Skirts are hugely more forgiving in this regard, whereas if I stuck to pants I would have to keep buying new ones every couple of months as they get too big Great for my ego, not feasible for my budget.

      Plus, I like skirts. Why should I change my appearance to suite someone so shallow-minded that they can’t take me seriously if I dress in women’s clothes? I’ve never had a problem with this, and I’m not going to make it easier for someone with this gross line of thought to continue stereotyping others.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I really don’t understand the point of revealing your legs at work. I guess I truly am “modest”!

      That’s… an odd thing to say.

      As a short woman, I often wear skirts because it’s easier than finding pants that fit or having them altered. And the long skirt and opaque tights I’m wearing today actually reveal less leg than my coworker’s skinny pants.

    7. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I’m not trying to reveal my legs at work or to point out my gender. I’m trying to be comfortable. I wear dresses to avoid irritating the scar on my stomach that is where pants’ and skirts’ waistbands typically sit. But my reason for preferring one outfit over another should not matter because it is not your business.

      Can we for ONE G-D SECOND in this comment section stop shaming and insulting and side-eyeing women’s (perfectly business appropriate) wardrobe choices?

        1. PersephoneUnderground*

          OMG, where do I send your internet? The one you just won? *chokes on lunch laughing*

      4. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        Full disclosure, I really am having a hard time understanding why this is a super big problem for the OP, that being said, I agree with what you are saying.

        I haven’t worn a skirt to work in years, mainly because my early career had me in an office setting and a warehouse setting split about 50/50 and skirts/dresses were not appropriate (heh… try to find steel toe shoes that look ok with dress pants was hard enough… I’ve never seen any that would look good with a skirt!).

        But I don’t understand the “don’t wear skirts because of x, y, or z” due to modesty. Skirts and dresses are common and acceptable work wear in professional offices. Assuming they aren’t short enough to fall into the non professional range, there shouldn’t be any discussion about modesty or appropriateness of them.

        There are many times and places where wearing dresses or skirts isn’t appropriate; safety and environment are the two most common. Modesty shouldn’t be in this category.

    8. NoMoreFirstTimeCommenter*

      I don’t think there’s any reason to downplay gender differences at work. We should be able to relate to each other as people even if we can see what gender someone is. I’m not particularly interested in that brand of feminism where everything feminine is bad and women can be important and valued only if they do things exactly like men.

      1. Observer*

        I agree.

        I think that this is an especially dangerous line of thought for number of reasons. Besides the fact that there is no reason to code typically male as “normal”, the whole idea of hiding differences as the only way to deal with people as people is totally dystopian. The only way to really “minimize” gender differences is to have everyone walk around in a barrel and helmet. And then what happens with people who are not wasp-y (in the US – insert the “correct” ethnicity for each country)? The only way to “minimize” most of those difference is to start wearing full face masks.

        The idea is just creepy.

      2. Temperance*

        I often find that “downplay gender differences” means “act like a man/dress like a man/basically don’t be a woman because a man is neutral”.

      3. Elizabeth H.*

        Yes! Exactly! You can acknowledge that people are different genders and still treat everyone with equal respect.

    9. Detective Amy Santiago*

      As a feminist, I enjoy wearing dresses and skirts because I find them more comfortable and I find your opinion to be rather problematic.

    10. Luna*

      Skirts reinforce gender differences but pants don’t? Why can’t men just start wearing skirts instead?

      I live in a city so have to walk and take the subway to work, and in the summer when it is 90+ degrees out I am definitely not going to wear pants!

    11. neverjaunty*

      I suppose the writer of this comment is unaware that historically, and in communities that place an emphasis on “modesty”, women wearing pants is thought inappropriate because it reveals the shape of their legs.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah my mom fought to wear pants at school back in the 50’s, which was apparently considered a slutty shameful thing to want to do, because good modest women wore skirts back then. (The reason my mom wanted to wear them was so she could go across the monkey bars without boys looking up her skirt, so I don’t really understand all the logic myself).

        1. Julia the Survivor*

          When it first became acceptable for women to wear pants, they would wear a matching half-skirt across the back so the shape of their butt wasn’t revealed. :D I noticed this in an old I Love Lucy episode, and I’ve seen it once or twice since then.

      2. Augusta Sugarbean*

        Ha. That reminds me of a friend in college who didn’t shave her legs. Her grandma thought she was very modest because only naughty girls shaved their legs when her grandmother was a girl. Still makes me laugh.

    12. KellyK*

      If someone can’t relate to me as a person according to the quality of my work because I happen to be wearing a dress or a skirt, the problem is with them. I don’t like the idea of “downplaying gender differences” because it implies that there’s something wrong or inferior about being a woman, which we’re supposed to hide or downplay in order to work with men.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeh I would potentially agree with downplaying gender differences if it wasn’t always the women’s things that should change while the men become the standard we should be more like.

    13. (Different) Rebecca, PhD*

      Oy. I wear pants under skirts, most of the time, because it’s comfortable and flattering to me. But that’s me, and I don’t place value judgments on other people’s wardrobes, because I happen to like living in 2018 where the emphasis should be on work quality, not appearance.

    15. Polar Bear don't care*

      I don’t wear pants because I don’t like the feeling that my crotch is visible. Guess I’m more “modest” than you.

    16. Ceiswyn*

      Tell you what. You find me some decent hardwearing trousers that look professional, fit me, and are comfortable, and I’ll wear them.

      This’ll take you a while (I’ve only been looking for 20 years) but I’m sure you’ll agree that the results are worth all your effort.

    17. Julia the Survivor*

      Please see my post above. I love wearing skirts mainly because they’re more comfortable and flexible.
      Also, would you want your crotch exposed in pants? Would a man want that? I would think men in pants would be uncomfortable with this too!

    18. Pollygrammer*

      Wow. You’ve managed to be condescending and anti-feminist. Women should wear whatever they want to. What ~you~ prefer to wear is totally, completely irrelevant.

      Are you Mayim Bialik by any chance?

    20. Student*

      … or we could make it socially acceptable for men to wear skirts. That train can go both ways.

      Why opt for the “less choices for all” instead of “more choices for all” approach by default?

      Answer – because you’ve grown up in a culture so saturated with sexism about clothes that you can’t step back and say, “Hey, this is actually just a piece of shaped cloth that covers the groin. Men or women could decide to wear it! It would fulfill the needs of either gender to have their lower bits covered. In fact, if I think outside the culture I grew up in, I realize that kilts are just man-skirts as implemented by Scots, so this isn’t a remotely new idea. It was practiced successfully by generations of men who grew up to be totally normal, and their society did not collapse.”

    21. NaoNao*

      It’s amusing to me that pants are considered more modest, as they (unless they’re very loose and baggy) reveal the exact curve of one’s derriere and waist and “rise” (the part where the legs meet the thigh).
      Skirts are worn for a LOT of reasons, many of which have been detailed here, but I’ll repeat:
      They are more forgiving for weight fluctuations
      They are fit a wider variety of body types
      They don’t dig into the waist or thighs when seated
      They fit fashion preferences and desired styles
      They’re more comfortable for certain body types
      They can accommodate disabilities or temporary situations like a leg or ankle cast

      And furthermore, why don’t MEN just wear skirts to “downplay gender differences” so we “can all relate to each other based on the quality of our work”? Why are women responsible to erase their gender so men will see them as “other men” instead of “women: may or may not be equal to me in terms of work”.

      1. SarahKay*

        Another reason for skirts – I walk to work and on a rainy day a longer coat covers a knee-length skirt pretty thoroughly, leaving only tights/legs to get wet – both of which will dry in seconds. Take off coat, change my comfy walking shoes to smarter work shoes and I’m set.
        Wet trousers, though…that’s a long cold morning with damp fabric flapping round my lower legs :(

  56. Kathenus*

    #5 – Definitely keep doing this! It’s wonderful that you take the time to give positive feedback and I’m very sure it’s welcome by both the manager and employee. My mom used to tell us that if we have the right to complain we have the responsibility to compliment, and that advice has stuck with and helped frame a lot about how I try to behave in life. Kudos to you!

  57. CG*

    Between this and the Uber/Airbnb letter, I feel like the AAM comments section is having a rough week on the “I can’t empathize with this so everyone who thinks it must be out of touch” front.

    3. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I’ve spent far less time reading through comments lately than I used to, because I find the almost defiant refusal to empathize exhausting to read.

      1. Anna*

        Same. There has come a point more frequently in the last six months where I have to tell myself to tap out and avoid the site for the rest of the day because of the lack of empathy.

      2. a1*

        I don’t know if it’s defiant refusal so much as truly flabbergasted. I said more above, so won’t repeat. But I think the OP should be comfortable, but I was genuinely shocked that people don’t think they need to sit differently when wearing a skirt. I was always taught that you just do, all stop, period. So I’ve seen a lot of people lie me, being truly surprised. There were a couple of “bad” comments” (don’t wear short skirts), and they got a lot of push back, but I don’t think people explaining how they deal with it means they think it would work for everyone. Just explaining what they do. Like we do in every comment thread.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          See, you are not understanding the problem if you think it boils down to “but I was genuinely shocked that people don’t think they need to sit differently when wearing a skirt.”

          For one, most people *do* know that. Making the issue that people just don’t *know* to sit differently is a straw man argument. So to be clear: as a wearer of dresses, I know I have to sit differently in them, and I accept that as a cost of wearing them at a restaurant or on the subway or on stage. But it is not a feasible way to sit for 8 to 10 hours straight because that is desperately uncomfortable and bad for my already bad back. And as privacy panels are standard on office desks, and as skirts and dresses are considered the most appropriate attire in my conservative, stodgy industry, it doesn’t sit right with me (ha! see what I did there?) to eliminate a standard feature of desks and require women to sit in a way that *hurts* some of us when done for hours and hours at a time.

          And frankly, the problematic posts are NOT just a couple, and they are NOT simply explaining what they do that works for them and offering it as a suggestion – that would be totally fine. Instead, they are saying pretty straightforwardly that “this can’t be a real problem, you must be doing it wrong.” The wrong has been listed as she must be in skirts too short/she must not understand how to sit in them/she must be wrong about how often people use plugs/she must be oversensitive about modesty (yay! OP has been accused of being not modest enough AND too modest! Fun!)/she must be flagrantly sitting in a way that doesn’t involve pressing her knees together/she must be unaware that she could tuck skirt fabric around her/she must be obnoxiously stubbornly refusing to wear pants and how dare she wear a skirt and press this issue…. and on and on.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Jessie, I am here for this! Thank you for identifying the ridiculous slog of comments that are more focused on undermining or marginalizing OP and her coworker’s question/concern than on answering it.

        2. Kate 2*

          Agree with Jessie, I think I replied to you above about this, can’t remember but: I have a differently shaped body than you do evidently. I have thicker thighs. It is PHYSICALLY PAINFUL for me to sit with my legs crossed or knees together. There is no way for me to sit in a skirt that doesn’t require a modesty panel.

    4. Kate*

      Someone mentioned in a thread the other day that the commentariat seems to be extra grumpy in the winter. I agree, there have been some rough threads lately.

      1. neverjaunty*

        I mean, we’re often a contentious lot, but there’s a huge difference between being (politely) contentious at EACH OTHER and this recent run of “the OP is just stupid and her problem is stupid”.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Yes. This seems like a new kind of yuck. I’m used to people being kind of rude to each other (or unkind when it gets contentious) in winter, now, but I’m not used to the “how dare you think your problem is a problem—it’s not a problem for me, so it’s not a problem for you, and why do you think you deserve to have a problem?”

    5. Oranges*

      I didn’t read the other letter but I’m not surprised at the reactions personally. Since both hit a nerve close to sexism (both talk about work/worries that tend to fall on women). We’ve grown up in that culture and it’s rubbed off on our ways of thinking even when we struggle not to be sexist.

      So people want to negate the letter writers because it’s deeply uncomfortable as a woman to be aware of everything we have given up or done in order to fit into our current society. For males it’s annoying because it seems like another “thing” in a long line of things that “aren’t a big deal” and they can’t/won’t see how each little thing can add up, quickly.

      At least that’s my take on it.

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        I also agree, I think this is a great take on it. I find it deeply frustrating to constantly be operating in the framework of women having to modify things they do very slightly in order to fit conventions that are more naturally suited to men. Equal doesn’t mean the same, it means being treated with the same respect regardless of any gender-inflected choices.

  58. Jady*

    OP1: If it’s impacting their work so significantly and she can’t make the time outside of work hours, this is important enough (in my opinion) that she do courses during her work hours. Most jobs these days require some basic abilities, so it’d be doing her a favor.

    I’d advice to mention to the manager you suggested courses, but she said she couldn’t make the time outside work, and it’s impacting her enough that it warrants taking the time during office hours.

  59. cncx*

    i was in a similar situation with a computer illiterate coworker like op 1.. Because i was the IT helpdesk, she thought it was my responsibility to teach her how to use Outlook, make her Powerpoints if they were too complicated…I wound up having a conversation with MY boss to cover my behind. The worst was that she was doing a job that involved numbers and had no clue how to use excel- we were stepping into “how did you get this job” territory. The weird part was, i honestly think this person was so clueless she thought it was my job, because if she didn’t know it it must be computer rocket science. I actually got burned on something when she lied to her boss about not being able to send an email because her login was broken (the reality was she wasn’t even familiar with the basics of Outlook) which is what made me loop my own boss in.

    So yeah, i agree with everything AAM said, but don’t just loop her manager in but also loop in your own in case stuff gets flipped.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Yeah, I had a boss who was completely computer illiterate, but he was valuable to the company because of his contacts and his expertise in his area (basically, he was a “mad man” type guy who knew everyone). The company invested in getting him an assistant to do his computing tasks because they felt it was worthwhile given his other skills. That’s how you handle someone like this, you make the calculation! Don’t just hire them and sick them on the help desk!

      1. JessaB*

        Yes, and if you want them to take courses, then get them to the courses. Either fire her or train her, but pick one, and if the OP needs to train her give the OP the tools to do so completely.

  60. Rachel*

    #5-I can’t speak for every call center, as I’ve only worked at my current one, but we actually give our CSRs a small reward when customers do what you’re describing. It’s basically a point system and they get a point if they get a call like that. The points are later turned in for prizes. I work in HR so I was part of the committee that recently expanded the program and our reps really like it.

    1. JessaB*

      Yeh Mr B worked for a company that every quarter had a lunch for people who got a certain amount of accolade points. I think it was five for the quarter so a little more than one customer a month. That was before they had the survey things where everyone was able to respond to how they thought they did. Back then if nobody wrote a note or an email or called a supervisor, all they had was call recordings.

    2. JennyFair*

      Oh good golly, I am so glad GiantCo didn’t do anything but give congrats on positive feedback. As it was, I had one team member who did their best to cajole customers into ‘asking for’ a supervisor to give positive feedback. I took to listening to their calls afterwards to see how it went down, and once they’d given the customer talking points: a raise, a company car, etc. They’d also randomly started speaking in Japanese…and the customer, while Asian, was not Japanese, nor a Japanese speaker. It was…ugh.

  61. AlwhoisthatAl*

    About the desks: Purchase for everyone a small soft toy plush beaver, put between knees (good pelvic floor exercise), see how many people react when they see it. Go to manager with statistics of how many people looked. Enjoy saying loudly “But x looked at our beavers twice today”, repeat until they can’t take it anymore.

    4. Specialist*

      You win Specialist’s Award of Distinction for this solution. This is an off the wall ridiculous response to a truly bone-headed office folly. I would actually do this.

    5. tangerineRose*

      Yeah, don’t actually do that, but it would be funny. It reminds me of an episode of How I met your Mother where Robin talked about being Robin Sparkles and about her friend who was also on a TV show with her.

    6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I am so glad I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this. This is my favorite solution thus far.

  62. DCGirl*

    I’m the commenter who is in the open plan office where they one let us have coat racks or drawers large enough to lock up a purse (because those distract from the CEO’s pristine white vision of an office space) and have told people to leave things in our cars if we don’t like the options. All I can say with regard to #2 is praise the lord and hallelujah that our desks at least have modesty panels. I will spend the rest of the day rolling over the coat hanging on the back of my chair, getting my ankles tangled in the straps of my purse, and repeating, “It could be worse, it could be worse…”

    2. Us, Too*

      We have an open office plan, but there are little rolling file cubes (single drawer) for each desk that we can store a bag, a pen or two, etc. However, we don’t get trash cans at our desks because they clutter the office aesthetic. :|

      If I have to toss out a soda can or a post-it note or whatever, I have to get up and walk across the room to a set of communal cans disguised in a minimalist housing unit. I end up having a small pile of trash on my desk corner that I toss in the communal cans whenever I get up to use the restroom or head to a meeting, so this isn’t a big deal, but it makes me laugh.

      1. JessaB*

        Get one of those little hooks with glue on the back stick it on the side of your cube and hang a plastic grocery bag. Throw it away or empty it whenever you have to get up. Keeps the clutter off your desk.

      3. Competent Commenter*

        This no trash can thing makes no sense to me. Every time you have to get up to throw something out, you’re interrupting your work flow, you’re increasing the chance that someone will grab you for a quick conversation on the way to the trash can, you’re making it harder to remember what you were doing when you sit back at your desk…it’s just so much more efficient for the business to make it easy to throw out your garbage. Sheesh.

        1. LCL*

          Bitter experience has shown me that in a business setting, removing trash cans leads to nuclear level fights about disposing of trash.

        2. sap*

          And, if you’re me, instead of getting up every 10 minutes to throw out my tissue (I’m fine/not contagious, but I have thing that makes me sweat enough and I dab myself discretely because it’s gross), you will end up with employees breaking up the clean aesthetic of the office by keeping a small pile of garbage next to their keyboard. Ick.

  63. stitchinthyme*

    #1 reminds me of a situation I once had where my boss asked me to mentor a new hire who was just out of college. I am an introvert, and one of the reasons I chose to be a software developer was because it doesn’t involve a lot of interaction with people, so I was not exactly crazy about the idea, but I gave it a shot. However, I soon realized that while the new hire did seem to have at least some grasp of programming, she was not at all familiar with the operating environment we were working in, to the point where she’d ask me very, very basic things like how to get a directory listing. Much like the OP, I was not happy with having to answer such basic questions, especially when a quick Google search could answer most of them. (And New Hire was *not* computer illiterate, as we were software developers!)

    I did try to take Allison’s advice and brought the issue to our manager, with whom I had a very good relationship (we are still friends, though it’s been 10 or 11 years since we worked together)…but he was suffering from lack of sleep due to a new baby at home and got angry at me for complaining, so it didn’t go well. Not long after, there was a reorg that put New Hire in a different group and made her someone else’s problem (thanks in part, I suspect, to my talking to our director, whom I also had a very good relationship with).

    1. sap*

      Software engineers who ask me basically Googleable questions drive me crazy (luckily it’s just a personal time thing). It’s like, how do you do your job, because I KNOW programming is about 50% googling standard implementations and if you can look up “how to build tree,” you can look up “how to slice mango.”

  64. BeepBoop*

    OP #3 – THE EXACT THING HAPPENED TO ME!

    The good news is, jerks like this get what is coming to them (I heard mt interviewer got fired a few months later), and you learned a great lesson – you know who you won’t work for and what you want in the future.
    Thankfully, you may never come across another jerk like that again, but now you have some idea of what you would do/say if did. (My idea was to give them a big F you! – sadly I never got to use it).

    Shrug this experience off and keep moving forward!

    1. sap*

      I had one of these back in law school, too. Interviewer was like “I don’t think you’d be right for this position. I don’t think someone who has a technical degree should be working with patents.” I was 100% sure he was trying to push my buttons/just didn’t like me, because having a technical degree or equivalent experience is literally a requirement to pass the patent bar.

  65. CBH*

    OP#5 Anything outside my home life where I’ve had a positive experience, I always try to give feedback. Whether it be retail, customer service, a restaurant, a coworker’s help, etc. Unless requested to take a phone survey, I either send an email or handwritten note; in addition I try (though it’s not always possible) to make sure the person I am giving feedback for receives a copy for their own file. I figure best case scenario this will help an employee in their career path and job, worst case hopefully I’ve brightened someone’s day.

    I once received a thank you note for my positive feedback to a wait staff service team from a manager! The manager told told me 99% of the time he gets negative feedback over the silliest things. This was a a restaurant. I was told once someone complained for not giving an extra straw with a drink! Anyway the manager said that it was so nice to hear about an employees excellent service and that he as a manager was guiding his team correctly.

    To answer your inquiry OP%, definitely give feedback!

    1. JessaB*

      Yes, I always call over the manager in a restaurant when we get really good service, it surprises them so much, they’re so expecting to be yelled at.

  66. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    For #1 – with Jane. If you think she’s genuinely trying I would also try having a direct conversation with Jane to see if there’s anything she can suggest or can request you do different. Something along the lines of “Jane, I’m getting the feeling that the training we’ve done so hasn’t been entirely effective. This seems to be coming from unfamiliarity or discomfort with some of the computer skills needed. Do you agree with that? *listen to the answer, then ask* Is there anything I can be doing differently with my approach or how we handle these trainings that you think might help make things easier on you?”. Again, listen and maybe offer the chance to think about it and get back to you – I don’t think this is the type of question that many people would be prepared to answer right off the bat.

    The most important thing is to listen and be prepared to alter your approach (if possible/within reason – obviously if she requests something completely out there, like doing your training in Klingon or never telling her when she makes a mistake, then tell her that’s not something that you accomodate). I’ve was in a really awful situation, where I was completely competent, but was being by trained by someone who could do the actual job well, was an awful trainer (objectively) and had working/learning style polar opposite from mine. This trainer’s biggest flaw was that she could not comprehend that other people learn differently, work differently that often times different approaches can still yield the same result. I’m sure nothing quite that extreme is going on here, but I think it’s always worth exploring whether a change in perspective, approach, style (or hey, even seeing if there’s someone else who could do some training with her).

  67. been there!*

    LW #1 – been there! When I was an executive assistant at an investment firm, we hired a receptionist/marketing assistant (in charge of coordinating/printing materials) who had no computer skills. There were a few signs similar to what you mentioned, but the real kicker was when she came to me thinking her computer was broken…it had simply fallen asleep. I did go to my boss about it as her computer struggles were impacting my own workload plus that of two others who sat near her and had tried to help. My boss ultimately made the decision to let her go, as he felt she had lied in her interview and resume about her skills. My coworkers were upset with me about “tattling.”

    All this to say, be aware that this may blow up if you go to your manager. But in the end, for me, it was the right thing to do. It was taking up too much of my and my coworkers time, she was not able to get anything done, and she was not taking our advice to try to learn on her own. It isn’t your job to make sure this person learns how to use a computer! It is your job to get your job done.

    1. sap*

      Ahaha on the computer broken/sleep thing.

      Though I did have one laptop that I genuinely couldn’t figure out how to wake up from “deep” sleep (keyboard/mouse/power button–all didn’t work and I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how to wake it up–Google just kept telling me the method to wake it up from “catnap” sleep) and I eventually had to disable it after I lost work a couple of times from eventually doing a hard reboot on it.

      But I’m guessing this was a different problem :p

  68. Reya*

    #2 – on one of my company’s reasonably regular office reorganizations, I got assigned a desk that would be at the far end of a 40-foot walkway, so that anyone entering our floor would have an immediate view of (and, from that distance, under) my desk. (Our desks are those triangular-ish ones generally designed to go together in banks of four with everyone facing in to a central point, so don’t have modesty panels).

    I pointed out that I wouldn’t be comfortable in that set-up. My grandboss immediately arranged for a filing cabinet to be placed in front of the open portion of the desk, because despite being a bit of a dinosaur in many ways, and prone to making the odd inappropriate remark, even he accepted that this was a reasonable concern and something that it was the company’s responsibility to fix. Your boss should do something.

  69. LCL*

    #1, Absolutely pass this on to your coworker’s manager, it’s not your job. I can tell you are getting so frustrated with her you are approaching BEC stage. What’s wrong with using File < close to close a document when you want to keep the program open?

    1. Elizabeth H.*

      I don’t think the LW#1 sounds frustrated in the least!! Much the opposite. It’s true that it’s a situation that could quickly become frustrating, but it sounds like LW#1 is making the best of it and doesn’t have animosity toward Jane. Did not get a BEC vibe.

      The File menu > close was an example of unfamiliarity with common MS Office program icons (like the X button in the right hand corner of a document), which are posing a challenge to LW#1 during her training/tutorial/explanations (not being sure what terminology she can use and so forth).

      1. LCL*

        I got seriously reamed out by our resident IT person for closing out his homegrown programs using the X. These were actually pretty sophisticated programs that kind of emulated the Microsoft layout but emphatically weren’t Microsoft.
        To quote what more than one IT person told me, ‘always close your programs using the menu at the top to make sure the save process happens correctly and it is being saved to the right place. And for God’s sake don’t put shortcuts on your desktop, because the path is lost whenever we roll out an upgrade and we have to field dozens of help desk calls.’

        I think there are two types of computer users, those who use keyboard shortcuts and those who don’t. It’s all good.

        1. Someone else*

          This is true but I think the point of LW’s example wasn’t “person doesn’t know any shortcuts” but perhaps trying to make the point that “person doesn’t seem to be aware such things exist” which is a different problem entirely. The former is a usage preference. The latter is a knowledge gap.

          I once worked with someone and I’d say “close the window” and he’d stare blankly. “Click the little X in the corner”. And he’d move the mouse as if searching. “The top right corner”. Still couldn’t do it. I know some of the examples LW gave could go either way, but given the overall context of the letter, I’m taking LW at her word that this colleague’s problem isn’t “only knows one way of doing X when there are three or four and several are faster” but rather is “colleague isn’t comfy with basic computer terminology and tasks”. Like, if she closes using the file menu not because that’s her standard way of doing it, but in more of a “well I’m sure I’ll find the option I’m being told to do somewhere in this menu, I’ll click on said menu and tentatively mouse down until I see the word this trainer just said to me” that’s…not good.

          1. Scarlet*

            That’s my read on it as well. When a trainee is not even familiar with basic computer technology, like close a window, save, etc., it makes training really difficult.

  70. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    #5 – I worked in a call center for 8 years for a major telecommunications company and when a customer asked to speak to a manager in a good way, it was a “kudos call”. These are GREATLY appreciated. We would have contests where every kudos call would get the CSRs in a drawing to win TVs, iPads, etc. Or sometimes they’d get a $5 gift card for every kudos call.

    Most important are the surveys. The company I worked for (and one other that I’m familiar with) CSRs make about $10/hour for base rate. They can get there annual pay up to $40-$45k with bonuses. The bonuses depend on good survey scores. It’s also what annual raises are dependent on. Plus, those scores are looked at to determine who can be promoted (especially if the CSR wants to move into a training position). We weren’t a sales-based call center, so customer satisfaction was our huge metric. So, please fill out those surveys!

  71. Nan*

    I don’t understand why the desk thing is such a big deal to the manager. I’m sure facilities has a drill somewhere. Put on a front panel, and drill a hole at the top of the panel or the top of the desk to run cords through. Most desks (at least those I’ve seen) already have cord holes in the top.

    OP isn’t asking for the world. The boss kinda sucks and is unreasonable.

  72. PersephoneUnderground*

    On OP2, whether they “should” care about this is beside the point. Generally, I feel like a good office is willing to make adjustments that make their workers happy, even if they cost a little money or seem unnecessary to the person doing the purchasing. Happy workers feel valued and do better work, and if something that seems unnecessary or even frivolous (like a colorful planner for keeping a busy calendar of appointments an events straight instead of a slightly cheaper plain one, or a bright green mouse pad instead of a black one) makes them happy, then it’s worth the investment. A modesty panel isn’t even into the realm of the potentially frivolous things I’m talking about, it’s a comfort item like a good chair or a lumbar support pillow. Value your employees. If you can, give them what they say they need to be comfortable and productive. I work for a very small business, and that’s their basic approach to employee requests, and it fosters a lot of high-quality/hard work and loyalty, and overall the company has been very successful.

    1. KR*

      This! This! This! *Snaps for Persephone Underground*
      I have a nice notebook for every day notes, colorful file folders for my file cabinet, a fancier looking paper tray on my desk. They cost maybe a couple dollars more than the basic versions but they make me happy and motivated and comfortable in my office space, which fufills the business need.
      A modesty panel shouldn’t be a huge sticking point for OPs office and if she goes at it with the attitude, “Of course you want us to feel comfortable at our desks, so let’s think of a solution.” Hopefully her supervisors will listen.

    2. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Thanks for this PersephoneUnderground. I used this in a conversation just today. [object] we have isn’t causing a serious safety issue, it’s just a damned nuisance to use. And [better object] is a inexpensive thing that would make our tasks slightly easier. And management is getting stroppy about it. Argh.

  73. a Gen X manager*

    The modesty panel on my desk was removed two months ago because its connections / screws were damaged when my new monitor was installed. It is extremely uncomfortable (even wearing pants), because I am constantly “on guard” for ensuring that I am sitting “appropriately” for the constant flow of people going by my office (who can’t help but to look in every single time!). It is a huge distraction and is very uncomfortable to sit “properly” all day long. I just want to focus on my work.

    1. a Gen X manager*

      I love being a woman, but I envy men in that they don’t have to think about how they sit and that they can wear the same shirt and pants every single day and no one even notices. It sounds blissfully simple (I don’t envy the daily facial shaving though, and I know there are other uniquely male challenges too).

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      Sounds like you could ask for a replacement? Since they removed a damaged part of your desk and all.

      If you’re not sure, ask support staff. They’re likely to know whether something is even possible, plus who to talk to.

  74. Mockingjay*

    #2: I recently provided a writeup for my company on requirements for new conference rooms. My most significant priority was ensuring easy access to floor plugs or electrical strips to plug in laptops. (I recommended installing tabletop plugs.) In our current conference room it is almost impossible to get under the table to plug in the laptop power cord in while wearing a dress or business suit skirt, without showing more of myself to my colleagues and guests than they care to see…

  75. I'd Rather not Say*

    LW#1 have you considered that Jane is overwhelmed and afraid of failing?

    “Multiple times I’ve suggested she look up online tutorials and she says she doesn’t know how to dig through that stuff or doesn’t have the time. Or I’ve pointed her towards free computer courses, and again she cites not having time. I really think her taking a day or two to take the courses would solve a lot of problems.”

    These reactions sound like someone who is afraid, doesn’t know where to start, so does nothing. The fact that she’s using “pre-windows” commands, makes me wonder if she used computers years ago, and has recently returned to the workforce.

    Maybe if you removed some of the obstacles, such as finding a particular course or two that meet during the work day (clearing with supervisor ahead of time, of course) this could secretly be a relief to her. If she has success and builds confidence, this may be enough to start things rolling.

    I train volunteers on using our computers, and some of them are deficient in the most basic skills (can’t save to correct folder, don’t know how to make a folder) and have had similar reactions. What I’ve found is helpful is clear boundary-setting (I’ll help you with A, B, and C, but you’ll have to do X, Y, and Z on your own).

    I was a Liberal Arts major, who had ZERO computer experience when I started working 30 years ago. Everything I know about computers I got through a combination of on-the-job learning, community college classes, and of course, google.

  76. Newt*

    LW1

    I had a Jane in my last job. We were an office where excel, word, outlook and so on were used daily by the entire team in addition to a number of more specialist programs, and basic-intermediate skills were very much both required for the role and noted in the job specifications. Nevertheless, I found myself with a coworker who needed to be told how to open and save documents, let alone create pivot tables and macros. Which resulted in her behaving exactly the way Jane is for you.

    I went to the hiring manager. And I’m glad I did!

    Turns out the hiring manager knew Jane didn’t have the office skills or experience we normally mark as mandatory for the role, but had been brought in due to other skills she had which we badly needed. The plan had originally been for another manager to personally mentor Jane and her first month or so on the job was supposed to have been an intensive skills training experience with zero exposure to the actual workload. But, then the Manager who was pegged for the job became long-term sick, and the plan never got communicated down the line to the rest of us. So Jane arrived on day one and got put into the normal onboarding process the rest of us got. Once things got fixed, Jane got the training plan she needed and ended up becoming a valued member of the department.

    There’s three possibilities for your Jane. One, Jane’s knowledge gaps were known about and accounted for in the hiring process, and someone up the chain of command expected or assumed training would cover this. Two, Jane misrepresented her skills expecting to be able to blag it. Three, the job ad, description and interview content did not adequately address the skills required. Either way, step one in solving the issue is to raise it with management and make sure they have eyes on it.

    1. LBK*

      I think this is a good breakdown – and the overall point is that this is way outside of the OP’s purview to solve. Take it to management.

  77. SarahKay*

    OP#4, I second Alison’s advice to be upfront about the fact that you’re interested in the job. Tell them this, before you tell them anything else, and make it clear that you won’t be offended if they now decide they don’t want feedback from you on the candidate.
    No-one’s going to give you the side-eye for deciding that you are interested in the job as a side-effect of having looked at it more closely (well, no-one with any sense!) but if you give them feedback on the applicant without declaring their interest and then you apply yourself they’re not only going to discount your feedback, they’re likely to discount you altogether.

  78. Salamander*

    For LW#2, I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. This is totally a jerk thing, and your desks should be replaced. I agree wholeheartedly that you should push back on this hard in a group.

    In the meantime, would it be possible to get a black tablecloth for your desk that would drape low enough to cover the area that a modesty panel usually would? That would allow any cords that need to be moved enough room, but would give you some privacy. I expect your boss will complain about this due to aesthetics, but functionality surpasses aesthetics. Or at least, it should..

    I used to work next door to a new courthouse that had glass stairs with no risers from the first to the second floor. Whoever designed it did so for effect and not considering the skirt-wearing humans who had to use it. Risers were eventually installed, I think, but the whole place was known as “Upskirt Alley.”

    1. Observer*

      How did no one catch that problem?!

      Imagine this happening at the courthouse of the judge who wouldn’t allow women in pants into his courtroom.

      1. Salamander*

        It was ridiculous. I suspect that the folks who were on the planning committee and the architect were men who were attempting to achieve a certain aesthetic, but I don’t really know what they were thinking. It was extremely, extremely impractical. The whole thing made the national news after it was built. There was at least one judge who was rightfully incensed because she wore dresses under her robes, and I think I recall her and a couple of attorneys speaking to the press about it. When I had to be over there, I took the elevator, because I knew about this. But a lot of the women who visited the building were unaware, and it was not a good situation at all.

  79. Pollygrammer*

    I have never ever seen this comment board so sexist before, it’s making me really sad. :(

    2. Student*

      I think it’s a good reminder, actually, that we have a very long way to go and a lot of luggage to unpack before women are treated equally in the workplace. Feminism is a battle yet to be won, and one of the fronts that we neglect too easily is inside our own house.

      This is a fairly feminist-leaning commentariate. But we can still find issues (I also remember the notorious panty-hose post of long ago) that bring out a strong, heavily sexist, unsympathetic response.

      It’s also an interesting issue to point out to men. Women have to think about how they sit. Even if men, collectively, are not paying attention to it consciously, or say things like, “No need to worry, we won’t judge you for how you sit”, we will still worry about it ourselves, because of our own internal sexism on the issue (and because we don’t believe them and/or have good reason to think this response is actually BS), and burn up some of our attention on issues that they just don’t register. Can you imagine a board full of men writing so many comments on how they sit at work and what perceptions they think they’re giving other people? I can’t.

      1. Oranges*

        I also had flames coming out of the side of my face on the “I slept once with my married boss, got preggers and now his ex is managing me” one. There were a couple of commentators who were there with me though. It will never be “fixed” but hopefully people will be more aware of their unconscious biases and catch themselves when they’re being assholes.

      2. Plague of frogs*

        Today was also a good reminder that men aren’t the cause of sexism. Sexist people of both genders are. Lots of women shaming other women today.

  80. Ghost Town*

    #2 I was a part of an office move that took us to a new space with desks with no modesty panels (also glass stairs…). Staff brought it up and tried to get them to add modesty panels, but we were met with a “can’t be done” response b/c they were trying to make everything modular and fit a variety of layouts. Directors and department chairs got modesty panels, but regular staff didn’t. I was just happy to have an office with a door. Truth be told, I think they had made all the decisions by the time they had the staff town halls.

    #5 Keep doing this! You’re doing a great thing. You’re right that people in these roles and their supervisors usually only get the negative and frustrated feedback. So much so that even one sentence or two of praise will be remembered and appreciated!

  81. Specialist*

    Letter 1: Sorry about your Jane. So many of us can sympathize as it is a common problem. Sounds like a great thing to take to Jane’s manager. I have found that “advocating” for people in this situation makes the entire concept easier. You seem to think that Jane is trying hard and seems enthusiastic and willing to work. She just doesn’t have the necessary skills. This is exactly the person for whom you want to advocate. “Jane deserves some basic computer classes. Can you make that happen?”

    Letter 2: Fascinating discussion. I would recommend a spring fit curtain rod and a cheap curtain. Or you could really have fun with it and be decorative. Although I really enjoyed the stuffed beaver commentary above.

    Letter 3: My husband used to say that bad experiences just made for good stories later. Can you look at it that way? Yes, it wasn’t appropriate on the interviewer’s part. Chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. You handled yourself professionally. At some point, you will likely learn to smile graciously and end these situations with style. But that isn’t important, either. Just go out and have a few drinks with friends and a good laugh over it.

    Then there is what not to do when you’re not qualified. I remember so many years ago, I was the big cheese in a business venture. My two male partners didn’t have my expertise. We had someone come in who interviewed with each of us individually. She needed extra training to get the certificate to do everything we needed, and she hadn’t completed her mandated apprenticeship to be able to work on her own. She would have known that–she was trying to sneak through without us figuring it out. So I was the only one of the three partners who caught it. I still completed the interview, but then instructed her to check on what she needed to do to complete the requirements for the job and to get the information to my staff. She actually called up the two guys and told them that she would never work for us because I had treated her horribly during the interview. Okay, you got caught–thankfully–because you would have lost the ability to ever be fully licensed in your specialty, and we would have had some massive fines. You didn’t need to behave like that, it was juvenile. The high-end offices for this are a small community. Yes, you have been black-listed. Nobody wants to trust their business to someone who refuses to follow the rules and puts the entire organization at significant risk.

  82. Lalla*

    Re: letter 5, I think it’s lovely to provide positive feedback when someone’s handled your call well, but it may not always be convenient for you to speak to a manager.

    I used to work in a pretty hectic customer service call centre role, where managers were often rushed off their feet managing call queues, handling complaints and co-ordinating and assisting their team. If a customer asked to speak to them to give positive feedback, they were of course really happy to hear it, but it left the team without a manager for a few minutes and, on particularly bad days, that might cause problems (another customer on the line demanding to speak to a manager immediately about a complaint, dozens of calls in the queue building up and a team with no direction about what approach to take, operators desperately looking around for someone to help them with a complex case, etc.).

    My advice would be, where possible, to ask the operator for their name and for an email address you can contact that will reach their manager. Then send an email praising the operator by name and briefly outlining what you liked about their service.

    That will mean that the operator can carry on handling calls, and their manager can carry on with all their tasks, but when they get chance to properly appreciate it, there’ll be written proof of the good feedback, which the operator can see for themselves (somehow more real than hearing it second-hand from a manager), and which the operator and manager can discuss between them in the context of the operator’s overall performance. The email can also be easily used in written records used for performance reviews etc. which might mean that your positive feedback helps contribute towards something really tangibly good for the operator, like a pay rise, bonus or award.

  83. leslie knope*

    The comments on the skirt OP are jaw-dropping, wow. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug.

    1. Oranges*

      I will be honest and say my knee jerk reaction wasn’t sympathetic. But then I did the fun of questioning why I responded the way I did and realized that I was being a jerk. Which is mental work but work I want to do. So, the rest of y’all need to do it too please.

  84. Noah*

    #5 – Please STOP doing this. Call centers score their reps. At most, they lose points when calls get sent to the manager. Many of those do not have a way to distinguish between good calls and bad calls to the manager.

    Telling them why you want to talk to the manager is not enough. They are not allowed to tell you, “please don’t because it hurts my score.”

  85. Elle Kay*

    #5 -YES! Keep doing that.
    I know that other people have already chimed in but I wanted to add my 2-cents. During college I worked at a store that sold home products (things for your Bedroom, Bathroom, and areas of the house Beyond that). On the only day that I ever had a customer register a complaint about me I also had a customer call the store after getting home to speak to the manager and compliment me.

    Corporate policy required that, in the case of a complaint, management had to discuss it with us. Not only was I flabbergasted that someone had complained, in this case, my manager used the positive feedback as clear evidence that the complainer was out-of-line, cranky, and that it wasn’t my fault she’d complained.

    So, keep in mind that leaving a positive comment may also ‘pay it forward’ when weighted against negative comments that people just having a bad day might leave.

  86. PoetRocker*

    LW #3 – Anecdote time.

    I once went to an interview where I shared a name with the main interviewer (the same person I’d have been reporting to) She greeted me, and while shaking my hand said, “I already told everyone there’s no way we can hire you, it would be too confusing for everyone, since we have the same name!” She said it like she was asking how my drive over was… I was flabbergasted. Totally threw me off, and I *almost* said “Oh, okay, so – I should just go then?” I’d driven over 3 hours to get to this interview, and my professional world is pretty small – everyone basically knows everyone else… I currently serve on a board with this person… surprisingly, this has never been mentioned.

    All that being said, it’s amazing that people don’t think through what they’re saying more!!

  87. Miles*

    #2 I’m actually kind of creeped out by your manager’s response. Privacy panels are not always made of wood and it’s pretty unreasonable to not have them in place within the day of even one complaint considering how cheap they are in both materials and labor costs.

    If your manager doesn’t budge on this, I’d go to the dollar store for some poster board or large beach towels and some double sided tape and ask a facilities person to set them up or just do it myself.

  88. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

    I’m totally on board with the idea that skirts are perfectly appropriate, and the office furniture is making it unnecessarily hard for LW2 and the other skirt-wearers in her office to just do their jobs. But do we really need to imply that a woman wearing pants is “dressed up like a man”? I’ve observed this rhetorical move quite a few times recently in various places (not just this comment thread), and as a woman who has always felt more comfortable in pants than in skirts (both physically and psychologically), I find it kind of insulting.

    1. MissDissplaced*

      I guess im always “dressed up like a man” too because i can’t stand wearing skirts and dresses for like hundreds of reasons. And i never feel manly… just comfortable!

    2. Panda Bandit*

      Irritating too, because skirts were invented waaaaay before pants. Why do men get to claim them?

    3. Observer*

      I think the “dressed like a man” came up because someone claimed that women should start wearing pants at work to reduce gender differences.

  89. Miles*

    #5 I don’t think this would take any extra time if it’s clear that you won’t need to speak to the representative after that and their phones are appropriate for the current century. They can do a cold transfer and send their manager a message via their internal chat system, and they’ll be answering the next call while you wait.

  90. MissDissplaced*

    #3 yeah, the guy was a jerk. If he really felt that way he should have called and cancelled the interview based on having better qualified candidates and mot wasted your time. But perhaps there was just a smidge of naivety. It’s OK. You didn’t do anything wrong by applying for the job and did your best in a bad situation.
    Sometimes you just get bad interviews like this, it happens and don’t let it get you down.

  91. LiptonTeaForMe*

    #5
    I have worked in the call center virtually all my life and some are seriously soul sucking jobs. You have to be on and off the call within a certain number of minutes, take no wrap time between calls, document each call while simultaneously talking and typing about two different things, adhere to all the rules, fix the issue or schedule a technician. This has to be done whether it takes the customer 20 minutes to tell you what the issue is or not, understand what they are trying to convey to you or even better what you are telling them to do.
    The job WILL PUSH YOUR BUTTONS and I cannot say that enough. If you have a pet peeve about being talked over or down to or being called “honey”, “sugar”, etc., called “sir” when you’re not, being interrupted constantly, not being listened to because you are a woman or perceived to be a woman, or having someone talk so fast that you cannot understand them or being told “to go back to your country” even though you were born here, etc., this job will eat you alive if you allow it to. It took me a looong time to learn not take it personally, and sometimes, they will still hook me after 20+ years in the call centers. The two important things to remember is that people do not listen and does calling you “sugar” for the duration of the phone call really matter for that call? In other words, is this the hill you want to die on? So no, call me what you want…I don’t care.
    I am now a federal employee in a call center so much of what I tell you is bound by the law. I wish I could make the long hold times go away, I can’t. The fact that we need more people to answer the phones or process the tax returns or answer your letters or finish your audit or get better computers or more training or whatever… Talk to your Congressman, I cannot change these things for you. We have not been allowed to hire new employees for 8 years now. Imagine the attrition rate at your own office with this information.
    I get compliments all the time from people on the phone; they never seem to write in even after being given the address to do so. Kudo calls are usually met by my manager with, “tell them I will call them back in 24 hours” and it never happens. We are such an old agency that email is not an option. But think about how you feel when someone comes up to you and says, “Thank you for …., I really appreciated what you did and how hard you worked”. It makes a world of difference in your day and sometimes your week.

  92. PandaM*

    Hi I’m OP5 and want to thank everyone for the encouragement and real-world examples. From the feedback here I am going to amend my approach slightly to “I would love to register a compliment about the excellent service you provided today. Would speaking with your manager be the best method, or perhaps sending an email? Please let me know what you recommend.” And I will be more mindful to fill out surveys going forward! In fact, after leaving positive feedback on a manager’s voice mail recently, I very quickly received a survey asking me to comment on the employee’s work, which I did. It was apparent that the survey was of more value in that organization than the verbal comments. Thank you all again!

Comments are closed.