open thread – January 12-13, 2018

by Alison Green on January 12, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. A question*

    Does anyone ever regret leaving a job they LOVED/ your dream job for better benefits and pay? Does anyone have any positive stories in doing so?

    1. Amadeo*

      Probably doesn’t count as what you’re looking for, as I never actually worked the job, but there was one I turned down and then later bawled my eyes out over. It was a design position for a K9 magazine and seemed like it would have been incredibly fantastic for me (former vet tech, now designer, in an environment about and around dogs, yes please) only once I’d mentioned accepting it (and fortunately I hadn’t given notice yet at my other job) my dog people friends went “#Name? He went to trial for rape in that town and has a reputation for Not Being Very Nice”.

      So I asked a cousin who was a detective in that area and was told that were I his daughter I’d not be allowed to go to work there.

      So I got back in touch with them and told them I couldn’t accept the position after all, but not why. Dear commenter, I went to bed that night and cried like a baby about it, but everything’s worked out for me in the end regardless. I’m not in a ‘dream job’ right now, but I’m in a Good Job that pays me enough to support a side hustle (and no one cares that I’ve got one, they all know) and has decent benefits. And I didn’t have to go form one conceited blowhard boss to another.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I wish it was more acceptable to tell jobs you’re rejecting them because they’re awful. I noped out of the interview process with Uber (corporate, not a driving job) because I’d gotten accepted for a lower-paid short-term job at a company that is not widely known to be a misogynist sexual-harassing unethical toxic waste dump, and I wasn’t comfortable saying “I don’t want to work for you because your company is fine with rampant sexual harassment as long as it doesn’t start damaging your business.”

        I WANT them to know that women are turning them down because their company culture is unspeakably horrible, but I’m afraid to risk it!

        1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          FWIW, I have been on the other side of this (received a note from a candidate saying she was declining an offer because my old boss is a skeevy harasser) and it is actually really valuable for those who are _not_ the skeevy harasser boss, because it puts a very fine point on “this is what this terrible person has specifically cost the organization, in terms of talent.” I think when it’s something like Uber, where its a well-known, public thing, I just don’t think they’re not going to hold it against you personally.

      2. Angela Z*

        I had something similar when a not-very-close family friend referred me to his company. He got me the interview but nothing else, which was fine. My experience and education matched well with a position they had available, and I was handling the interview very well- until the interviewer abruptly stopped it, after 20 minutes of general surface discussion, stating ‘It looks like you’d be better in a different type of job.’ The job I was applying for was exactly my industry of interest, which I had previous experiences in, so it was completely out of left-field. I was taken aback how rude it was, but maintained absolute professionalism. I put on a smile until it finished, stayed polite, and left. They didn’t even bother to say goodbye as they saw me out, opting instead to get into a group conversation at the front desk. I felt *so* insulted by the experience because there are dozens of better, professional ways to end an interview.

        I mentioned it to my mother, who was loose friends with the man that got me the interview- he only heard the interview was ended after 20 minutes, and he was *furious*. Apparently that same interviewer had done the same thing previously, and he was really embarrassed. That interviewer was apparently told to call and apologize to me within 2 days or she would lose her job. I never got a call, so I can only assume they fired her. The experience definitely tarnished my view of that company, so it does make a difference.

      3. MissGirl*

        I quit a job I quite loved for a job I like. I did this because I needed a livable salary and opportunity for advancement. I’m eight months in after a taking a year for a grad degree. Here’s my thoughts for what they’re worth.
        1. I do miss the old job. The new one isn’t as interesting and engaging. I have to wear work clothes and they’re way more strict about hours. However, if I could go back now, which probably I could, I wouldn’t. I finally own a house and got out of a crap apartment. I’m saving for vacations that actually require me to get on a plane.
        2. I remind myself I didn’t like the old job when I first started. It took time to know what I was doing and get engaging work.
        3. This job and company I’m at now isn’t the end-all for me but I’m building skills and a reputation to parlay it into something more.
        4. Change is scary and life is never going to be 100% perfect. There are always trade-offs. What are yours?

      4. Red Wheel*

        I left a job I loved for a job with significantly better pay. New job required leaving a warm, sunshine-y place to a location with terrible weather. New job was definitely a better career move but 6 years later, I am still slightly sad that my career ambitious did not allow me to still be at old job. You mileage WILL vary.

        1. Anonymoose*

          My mileage did not vary…much. I too left a relaxed role (higher education service department) to head the operations of an UBER competitive field office for, like, 40% increase in pay in a place that rains 9 months out of the year (sound familiar?). I liked the challenges of the role but ultimately it didn’t make my heart sing. I was no longer proud of my work and was really just surviving. So I left it hard and fast. I sometimes regret leaving the area that I lived (GORGEOUS!!!), but it became a battle of my stubborn will to succeed at all costs vs my mental and physical well being. The latter had to come first, despite my insecurities screaming for the opposite.

          I’m now in a job that is….alright. Pay is lower, but stress is way way way lower. Not sure of my next steps as I’m still working on my health. But the time away from the Old Job has shown me that I really should be focusing on my strengths which are vastly different than what I had been doing at Old Job.

      5. Kickin' Crab*

        I recently turned down a job I thought was my dream job because the department chairman was skeevy. It was heartbreaking because it was a company I used to work for and loved my coworkers, but the new chair was awful to me. Not harassment, but very sexist, belittling, almost negging. He actually told me during negotiations that I should not speak to anyone but him, and not to believe posted market rates for the position.

        I actually called the person who had been my mentor while I was there, who had been working hard to recruit me back, and told her, in confidence, why I was not taking the job. She was very supportive of my decision, even though I was half-crying on the phone (and totally lost it after I hung up). I still feel a little sad that I won’t be living in that town or working with those wonderful people, but if that chair ever leaves and someone less 1950s comes in, I’m first in line to apply.

    2. Amber O.*

      Yes! I had a job I loved at a small college. I stayed for five years because I loved it so much, even though the pay was sub-par and there were no chances of upward movement. A year and a half ago I was offered an opportunity at a large company for 3x pay plus vacation and benefits, and it was silly to say no. It was extremely difficult, and I missed my old job every day for a year, but at the end of the day the new job gave me so much more… I had the opportunity to learn so many more new skills in the new environment, take on more responsibility than before, expand my professional network, and improve my home life. It also gave me time to reflect that I had so much emotion invested in my previous job, and I’ve since been able to invest that energy in vacations and hobbies now that I can pay for them! It’s hard, but it’s good to grow- you might find that you love this next job just as much!

      1. spocklady*

        I had a job at one of those too. I didn’t _love_ the job, but there were lots of things that I liked/were satisfying about it, and I looooved many of my colleagues. However, in addition to the low pay/vacation and the inability to advance, there were also some fairly toxic things going on. Like, red flags I ignored in the interview because I needed a job so badly.
        I do still miss my old job sometimes, but given the opportunities of the new job, I wouldn’t go back. For me (YMMV) I think ultimately my emotional investment in that job wasn’t actually healthy, and I needed hindsight to see that.

        Good luck making your decision!

        1. Anonymoose*

          I totally forgot to add that part! I was totally and completely emotionally invested in my role at OldJob to the point that it was becoming unhealthy. I still wonder why I cared so damn much, looking back. I had a really full life otherwise so it wasn’t for a lack of purpose. Maybe I just outgrew it?

    3. kas*

      I’d love to see the comments for this. I wouldn’t say I “loved” my job but I strongly like it and have amazing coworkers. I’m so scared to leave because I’m afraid I won’t be as lucky again. There’s one specific company I would drop everything for if they had a suitable position and I’m afraid I’ll still regret leaving my current company if I was offered a position there.

    4. Nonners*

      I am also looking forward to the comments on this one. I love what I do but consider leaving it regularly because it simply doesn’t pay very much, and I get nervous about surviving long-term on this salary.

    5. Specialk9*

      I made the transition I was worried about, and it was the best thing. I was valuing intangibles like leadership knowing me and being respected, over pay. I went to the same job in a new industry, and now have leadership that knows and respects me, but I make over 50% more. I am now a big proponent of getting your pay up earlier in your career – give yourself options and harness the magical ability of compound interest.* The only exception is a truly toxic environment – it’s not worth the hit to your health\mental health, even with a good salary.

      *If you don’t know about compound interest, go look up a compound interest calculator right now, and use 10% interest (average lifetime return on stock market) and 40 years. It’s utterly boggling how much getting interest-on-interest grows a nest egg!

    6. Grandma Mazur*

      I too will follow this thread with interest because, as a European, I find the whole assessment of health insurance, etc., that you US inhabitants have to go through, to compare jobs, mind-bogglingly complicated. When I worked in the US for a year, I recall a middle-aged man telling me he hated his (manual labour) job but couldn’t leave because his daughter was diabetic and he didn’t think he’d be able to get as cheap cover anywhere else, as it would be a pre-existing condition (no idea if he was correct, but it made me glad for the NHS in the UK!).

      1. Jesca*

        I always find that pre-existing condition thing interesting because I have never had a time where I was denied new benefits from a new employer based on pre-existing conditions. As a matter of fact, I have never even been asked. But I have definitely known people who had in many years past (longer ago then my 13 some years of working). Now before ACA, I did know people who couldn’t get insurance privately due to pre-existing conditions. It does make me wonder though if that was still a thing with employers prior to ACA, because it certainly did exist 20 years ago! I am not really sure, but trying to dig out that hard-collected data from the government has been quite difficult.

        1. JeanB in NC*

          Back in the early 2000s I didn’t have insurance through my employer and had to go through a state program for high-risk people because I had depression on my insurance application. I wouldn’t have been turned down for a group plan, though – I didn’t have any problem getting insurance through my next employer (a large university).

        2. Rachel01*

          I think the pre-existing condition would come in play with some employers & insurance companies if someone had a “very” emphasis on “very” expensive medical condition.

          I had something come up once years ago that workman’s comp had paid for, re-injured myself (slip on black ice) and the insurance company questioned it. But that was in the 90’s. That was workman’s comp though. Had injured in an accident in one job — slip on black ice; than turned around 5 years later and injury in same area but being covered by my medical insurance. It was towards the end of the budget year for them, so I’m wondering if they were looking closer during that last month.

          They can find out anything. I worked in one state (1st injury) and 2nd time in a different state, different employer.

        3. copier queen*

          I was diagnosed with Crohn’s in college. It can be a super expensive disease to treat. After college, I went directly from my parents’ insurance to my employer’s. I stayed at that job for 2 years, then went to a new employer. Had I not been able to provide a certificate of creditable coverage, that ensured my health insurance didn’t lapse between parents’ insurance, to employer 1’s insurance and then to employer 2, then during those transitions, the employers’ insurance companies could have refused to cover any treatment related to my chronic illness for one year.
          So yeah…during that time before ACA, had I let my health insurance lapse at all between transitioning to a new job/insurance provider, any dr appointments, procedures, lab, prescriptions, etc., to treat Crohn’s would not have been covered for a year under the new insurance plans. That could have been deadly for me.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          It tends to land harder on conditions that are more expensive (require hospitalization, have the potential for it, require more costly treatments, etc.). I have hypothyroidism, which is one, but it’s so easily managed with $4 medication–that’s gone up to $9 because it was previously manufactured in Puerto Rico–that they don’t bother with it.

          I think you could get it through your employer but it cost more. I remember filling out the paperwork pre-ACA and they asked. They definitely asked.

        5. Natalie*

          If I am wrong hopefully some of the commentariat lawyers will correct me, but I believe ERISA (which dates from the 70s) required most employer-provided health plans to cover pre-existing conditions, although they could impose a waiting period before that coverage would kick in. So the pre-existing condition issue that was addressed by the ACA would have only applied to insurance you purchased yourself on the open market place.

          1. Natalie*

            And to clarify, I seem to recall that the waiting period could only apply to the specific condition, not the health insurance benefits generally.

            2. copier queen*

              Right, I believe it applied to the specific condition, and the waiting period could be up to one year. So that could add up to a lot of dr visits, hospitalizations, prescriptions, procedures, lab tests, etc., that would not be covered for that specific condition.

            3. copy run start*

              This is what I remember. I lapsed in health insurance between college and my first job to offer it pre-ACA, and I had to wait a year for coverage for treatment for my depression. I never even explored insurance during that gap year because it was so far from my reality of counting pennies to buy TP.

          2. schnauzerfan*

            A friend of mine took job working for my employer in the 00’s. His wife has some serious health issues. The didn’t ask about any pre-x conditions he might have, was covered the first month he worked here. His wife on the other hand? Had to be on his insurance for 1 year, they’d cover things not related to her pre-x condition, but not anything related to her illness.

          3. Shop Girl*

            I believe the problems happened when there was a lapse in coverage so if you changed jobs and could not afford COBRA your waiting period at your new job might make you ineligible. This got much worse in the years leading up to the ACA. Watch “Sicko” to get a good view of pre ACA American Insurance

          4. anon scientist*

            I wonder if this actually worked out financially for the insurance companies. I assume that a good portion of people would have to just let their condition go untreated for the whole waiting period, making it possibly worse, and therefore more expensive to deal with once back on insurance. But I guess they must have run the numbers and found this to be an acceptable financial risk. Pretty crappy for the patients, though.

        6. Alice*

          The Pre-existing condition stuff was only if you had a break in coverage for 63 or more days, so if you went from one employer to another, and didn’t have a lapse in coverage, the pre-ex didn’t apply. However, costs of coverage vary so much from company to company, i can see why the guy might be afraid to move companies.

          1. Natalie*

            If my understanding of ERISA is correct, the gap in coverage wasn’t a factor for employer provided plans, except potentially disallowing a waiting period.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Here in New York State I can remember an announcement in the 1980s that employers’ insurance companies could not refuse to cover a new employee on the basis of being a diabetic. My husband was diabetic and we were wondering how he would change jobs. He had been working at his then current job when he was diagnosed, so he was covered at his current job. The law allowed us to exhale.

      3. Enya*

        I keep reading that the NHS isn’t doing so great these days. Then yesterday I read an article in the Daily Mail (don’t know if they’re a reliable news source) that the NHS is at a very low point- even worse than in 2016 when a humanitarian crisis was declared and the Red Cross had to be brought in- ER waiting times are the longest ever (4 hour waits being common) , many hospitals have no available beds, people have to wait several hours for an ambulance, and hospitals are so crowded that last year 17,000 patients had to wait from half an hour to over an hour in the back of ambulances before finally being admitted. I don’t know, doesn’t sound too good to me.

        1. NeverNicky*

          The Daily Mail is not a reliable source. It’s our equivalent of Fox News (and at times Breitbart).
          The NHS is struggling because the current administration is starving it of funds as part of ongoing (and unnecessary) austerity messages.

          1. Jules the Third*

            Also – 4hr wait times in an ER? Puhleeze, I’ve spent 6 – 12hrs with a couple of painful but not life threatening problems, and I have insurance and live in a relatively well-off area (US 1M people metro area, 2 hospital chains, 3 emergency rooms).

            1. TL -*

              Yeah, a 4 hr wait time in the ER is only concerning if you were triaged high priority and that’s the first they could see you.
              If not – well, they’re triaging so you go in by priority and availability, not by who got there first.

              1. Akcipitrokulo*

                Recently there have been issues with underfunded ambulanves nit vetting there is time in a couple of places :( which I can go into a longer rant about deliberate running down and underfunding but not at the moment! But you’re right that the headline waiting times – while unacceptable imo that they are increasing – are for things like “I fell and my ankle is all swollen”… you’ll be seen and treated for free, but the guy with chest pains is going in ahead of you.

            2. Akcipitrokulo*

              Yeah, that’s hiw it works. When my Granda had a stroke, he didn’t wait at all. When my kid fell and had a cut on his head, we were seen quickly to check how serious, then as not life threatening, a couple of hours to get it cleaned up and glued.

            1. Perse's Mom*

              As I understand it, both. And if there’s hatefulness or something salacious that can be added in, they will.

            3. soz*

              False things. The Daily Fail is almost see as a joke. It’s always being sued for lying, also it deliberately makes things seem worse than hey are

              As for the waiting times – I have had an unlucky year where close family members have been to the emergency room. A couple of times it was life threatening and they were seen in minutes, I thought I had broken my wrist in a bike accident it took about 2 hours (but they also said I should have gone to a walk in centre not the emergency room as it was so low priority.)

              My partner was nocked off his bike also, he was there for about 5 hours. (He was 100% fine and walked out) they didn’t give him a bed, but they did get him to wait around and didn’t want to discharge him just in case. Annoying that we had to sit in he corridor, but it would have been worse if he had fainted as we took him home!

              As far as other services – I do sometimes go private, when I was self employed it was the only way to ensure out of hours treatment. (Which is available on the NHS but you may have to wait weeks for an appointment) But if you’re not self employed, by law your employer has to give you the time off to go (and generally it’s paid, I think it’s law they they can’t dock your pay).

        2. Akcipitrokulo*

          problem is that current government is trying to privatise it to some extent… yeah, privatisation is not a healthy thing for the nhs. also if you want to privatise, starving of funds is a good way to convince people it’s necessary. However, it’s still pretty good. If I need to see a GP I can get an appointment that day if I call in morning, or arrange an appointment to suit me jf not urgent. A&E waits for less urgent things can be longer, especially on friday and saturday nights. If you’re sitting in waiting room for that long you’re conscious and able to move to a certain extent… someone with a suspected broken arm that’s conscious and able to speak, but sore will wait a lot longer than more serious conditions.

          So it is wonderful…and waiting times aren’t always the full story… but it is horrifically underfunded at the moment and a lot of us are terrified that this government will fatally wound it and we may end up with a us style system.

          But Bevan and Attlee set it up from scratch :) so there is still hope!

          And daily mail is inaccurate, racist, nasty and bigotted.

        3. MNS*

          The British Red Cross have provided services with the NHS for years. They aren’t there providing disaster zone type help. It’s more like social care, and hey help people to be at home independently, which helps the NHS to discharge patients from hospital more quickly and free up beds. They also provide wheelchair loans to patients who may need them on a temporary basis. It may seem alarming at first when you hear the Red Cross is involved and makes for a dramatic headline but I don’t think that reflects the reality of how they are actually helping out.

      4. Akcipitrokulo*

        When other half was diagnosed with diabetes, we tried to make light of worry (his brother died from diabetes complications) tbat financially we’d be slightly better off… silver lining, you get free glasses and prescriptions now!

    7. Ainomiaka*

      It’s not so much benefits and pay, but I did leave a job that I loved to cut out travel to be able to have a baby. 3.5 years later still no baby. I’m not sure if I would have done anything different, but man. . .

    8. Grouchy Old Lady*

      I did. After 4 years I’m finally seeing the positive. I hate my job and loved my old job. But I’m finally realizing that there are so many things my family and I have been able to do because of the pay. I thought this job would be a learning experience to grow in my career. When in reality it has hindered my career by working with ppl who aren’t knowledgeable. Making me resentful for the last few years. But I have finally realized I have learned a lot of what NOT to do. And have really grown as a person by learning from other’s negatives. I also am finally coming to terms with the fact that despite I loved my old job and thought I would be there until I retired, the toxic person that drove me to start looking, is never going to change. So I am thankful I got away from them.

      1. Smithy*

        I was somewhat like this about 4 years ago. I left a job that I would definitely not call perfect, but it was at a small nonprofit that I loved and offered a number of really fantastic experiences to grow and evolve. However the pay/lifestyle that would forever be tied to that job just became too hard. I left for a job at a larger nonprofit that paid more than twice as much – and it ended up being a pretty dreadful job. Less opportunity, responsibility and exposure to some really dreadful professional habits and practices. But the money undeniably made a difference.

        About four months ago I was able to get another job based on the name recognition of that last org and the amount of time I then had in the industry. I’m now with a great organization and making around four times what I was my first job.

        During the worst of it, it did always help to remember that my lifestyle with job #1 simply was not sustainable. So when I was at my most miserable at the very very bad job and my old job would beg for me to come back – it was critical for me to remember what the bad job afforded me. My work life was dreadful, but what it meant for my personal life was hugely significant.

    9. Don't tell them where I went*

      I left what my husband described as a job ‘so perfect for you that we couldn’t have guessed it existed’ for a similar job at another company last fall. The salary was about a 30% increase and the benefits are comparable. I have to say, I was very leery about leaving the old company, although I had a new and difficult boss there and wasn’t sure how things would play out.

      After 5 months, I have to say…. One of the best decisions I ever made. I realized after leaving that I would never have had the opportunity to achieve there what I have very quickly at the new job. I think people can get pigeonholed at a company (at least at smaller ones) and won’t have opportunities because they have ‘known’ skills and aren’t perceived as capable at or qualified for different tasks/levels. Or maybe it’s that the company was dysfunctional in ways that I couldn’t see while I worked there.

      1. Rachel01*

        I’m dealing with the issue of being locked into a position under a horrible boss, and I’m the only AA that she’s kept past 1 year. Most left after a few months with her. I’ll not get a job elsewhere here because I’m the first one that has been able to work for her and they do not want the upheaval if I accept a job in a different department.

        1. Khlovia*

          Wow. Punished for being stalwart. I hope you have a VERY good sense of humor about the universe!

    10. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I regretted it, but it wasn’t for better pay. It was for other reasons (too long to go into here). Even though I still wish I were there, I’ve also learned so much since having left. I’m coming to terms with the fact I can’t go back.

    11. Not Australian*

      I had to leave the best job of my life when I split from a violent partner. The thought of him turning up at work and harrassing me – and the lovely people I worked with, which he would have done – was just too awful to contemplate. I moved a couple of hundred miles and got an okay-ish job near my parents instead. Loved that job, though – it was as close to perfect as work ever gets, and I beat out over 100 other candidates to get it. Sigh.

    12. Museum Nerd*

      I worked at a very small museum when I was in my 20’s, first as an intern and then seasonal and then staff. I loved the organization and wish I could have stayed there forever. However it was only ever temporary or part-time and I was working another terrible job in order to have benefits and enough money to pay rent. When an opportunity to work a larger museum came along I felt I had to take it even though there were huge red flags during the interview process. Even though the job ended up being a really bad situation for me I won’t say it was the wrong decision because I gained important experience. I’m currently working very happily at a higher-ed organization. Unfortunately the small museum is really struggling right now and may close. But I will always remember my time there with great fondness.

    13. LSP*

      I spent three years working for a State agency, loving the work I did and working with some of the best people I’ve ever met. I loved the job, but I knew that there wasn’t going to be much room for advancement there, due to the strict structure of government and due to budget constraints, I didn’t think I’d ever see a raise. Even so, I wasn’t actively looking for a job, because even though I had an hour commute each way, the pay was good enough and I loved what I did.

      Then, a friend of the family mentioned that her employer was looking to hire someone with exactly my background. Since they were a private firm (though a government contractor), the pay was going to be much better and the commute would be reduced by about 75%.

      I applied for and got the job, with a 50% pay increase, a shorter commute, and more responsibility.

      I like my current job, and most of the people I work with are lovely, but I have spoken a few times with my former director about possibly coming back, but in a better position and higher salary. It’s not that I hate my current job (I’ve been here for three years), but I’m pretty lukewarm about the people and the culture. If I could make a better salary and have a better title, I would go back to my hour-long commute to work with those people again in a heartbeat.

    14. MuseumChick*

      I had a part time time job and two part-time internships that I loved. I was making almost not money but I really loved everything I was doing and the people I was working with. Well, I got a full-time job offer at a company and thinking it was the grown up this to do accepted it. It was a disaster on almost every level. They never set up my health insurance, I wasn’t making the money they told me I would, I found at just a few days after I arrived that two of the main reasons I had been attracted this this job where changing drastically, the owner of the company had a drinking problem and had been in multiple car wrecks, and the immediate supervisor was a basket case who wanted to be my best friend and cried openly in the office several times a week.

      It was not a good six months.

    15. The New Wanderer*

      Kind of – my first job out of college was the job I wanted since I was a kid. It wasn’t perfect, but it was amazing to me. And then I left after a year to go to grad school so that I could progress further in my career than I could without an advanced degree. So I didn’t exactly leave for better benefits/pay, but I left for the opportunity to get where I wanted to be sooner.

      OTOH, most of my colleagues are still there 20+ years later, still working on those amazing projects… I don’t regret leaving as the advanced degrees really did open doors that wouldn’t be available otherwise, but I’m kind of wistful about the “what might have been” if I’d stayed.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I left the job of my life. This involved crying and a migraine that lasted for months.
      I was pretty angry that I had to leave also. It was a bunch of emotions.

      Then I decided that I needed to think about what I was doing. I realized that I was way too emotionally mixed into that job. It wasn’t healthy to let a job be that important to me. So I promised myself never to get that attached to a job again, and I never have.

      When the dust settled and the rose-colored glasses came off, I realized that: I would never get an advancement at this job; I was working way too hard; the pay was worse than sucky; they were more of a priority to me than I was ever a priority to them; there was some financial shenanigans going on and life got better after I quit.

      To this day, I can remember the good times and smile, but all that upset/sadness is totally gone.

      1. Amber O.*

        I had this same experience. The emotional attachment I felt to my old job, the workplace, and my co-workers was bordering on unhealthy. They felt like my friends, family, and second home all wrapped up in one. I finally had to take the emotion out of my decision and look at the facts of each job: how would it effect my career to stay or leave? Would I get new opportunities or learn new skills? Was the increase in pay worth taking a chance on a new workplace? How would each job effect my personal goals- would they hinder or help me? Once the emotion was taken out of the equation, it was a clear choice. It wasn’t easy, but it was the right thing to do.

    17. TookTheLeap*

      My first entry level job out of college was my dream, working at a solid company (100+ years) with a big name, offered awesome benefits (including pension), opportunities for learning and growth, a diverse team of colleagues, good work-life balance and more. I swore up and down that I’d spend 25+ years there as most people had. Then one day as I was on vacation I got a message from a recruiter that I swore I’d brush off with a polite “thanks but no thanks” phone call. Instead we got into a conversation about my goals and what aspects of my job that I enjoy doing, and the recruiter propositioned, “what would you think of doing teapot making throughout your entire day and a significant salary increase (25%+).” Went through several rounds of interviews and I wouldnt say I fell in love immediately but their transparency about the role and the new challenges I could be a part of fixing intrigued me. I agonized about it for a while, cried, prayed, the whole 9 yards… Ultimately I decided to leave my great job for the new opportunity that offered more opportunities to grow. I can honestly say it was one of the best decisions Ive ever made. Leaving the old environment showed me that I’d never be able to work on this level of teapot making at old job at least for another 5-10 years, Im realizing that rather than constant compliments and so-so performance reviews due to beaurocracy, Im now for the first time being recognized and appreciated in my compensation and personal development, which, quite frankly matters.

    18. LAI*

      Well, kind of. My first job out of college was exactly what I wanted to do and I loved it. I stayed for 8 years. I eventually left for a number of reasons, including better pay and the fact that it was a relocation to the area I wanted to live in. But the main reason I left was because I was getting stagnant and a little bored after 8 years in the same position. I loved it, but I knew every detail of the job and I wasn’t learning anything new. I basically had to choose whether I wanted to keep doing the same thing (for the same pay) for the next 30 years, or if I wanted to have new opportunities and be able to grow professionally. Since then, I’ve had several jobs, none of which were as enjoyable on a day-to-day basis as my first job. I definitely still miss that first job but I don’t regret my decision. I’ve gotten to work with a lot of different people in different contexts, I’ve developed a ton of new skills, and I have a lot more options for where my career can go in the future than if I had just stayed in that one role. So I think some factors to think about here are not just the benefits and pay, but where are you in your career trajectory, where do you want it to go, and how does this job you love fit it?

    19. Ramona Flowers*

      I know someone who bitterly regrets leaving my workplace and feels she’s ruined her life. I’m sorry to have such a negative story to tell.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        PS I should say she left for reasons that didn’t make as much sense as a lot of the stories here.

    20. Anon Pixie*

      I just reached that point this thursday, actually! I love my job and I love my immediate boss, but they’re underpaying in the range of $8k/yearly, plus our vacation/sick time policy is questionable. They were really good when I had a serious surgery and had to be out for six weeks, but the $8k thing is just — it’s too much for me to overlook. My job before this was even worse (think a $20k/year difference) BUT when it came to bad weather conditions they were incredibly smart about sending us home and closing.

      This place? They were open on Jan 4, even though it was terrible (we got ~7 inches). There was no reason to be open; out of a crew of ~75, less than ten people showed up! And of those less than ten people, only half were given any kind of acknowledgement by TPTB for showing up, which makes me both furious and sad when I think about it.

    21. DriverB*

      I left a job that I was really good at, decent pay, excellent benefits, mostly great people, when we purchased a house and my commute became untenable. I tried for 6 months, but the 90 min drive each way in heavy traffic (even when leaving my house at 6am) was just brutal. I also tried getting transferred to a different office, but the director of my department suddenly became very butts-in-seats (even though I was frequently out of the office for site visits anyway and had been there for about 5 years). I found something that was about a 15% raise, and a 20 min bus ride away from home. It was gonna be great!

      Spoiler: it was not great.

      Things were really slow and intractable, and at first I thought it was just the holiday hangover (I started in January), or that I needed to get up to speed and figure out how to work in their culture. But I pretty quickly realized that there was just a lot of bureaucracy and no concrete plan for what my position was supposed to be doing. I did my best to scoop up every extra assignment I could, but I was bored to death and started looking after three months, including contacting my old boss for any leads. It took a while, and I applied to a few other places, but ended up back at my old company (in a different department and office) in October. I took a slight hit in terms of salary and vacation status, but I didn’t really mind – because I was also four months pregnant, and they agreed to honor all the FMLA and other leave policies even though I wouldn’t have worked for them for a full year again before the baby came.

      And now I love my job again. The people are smart and dedicated. I wish that one annoying director hadn’t forced my hand, because it has changed the course of my career a bit. But in taking that risk to leave, I was valuing myself and my time, and I did end up getting what I wanted in the end.

    22. Ann O'Nemity*

      I left a great job for much better pay and benefits. I never regretted it, but I have missed it! In the end, for me, having the extra money (and being able to stop worrying about finances so much) made all other aspects of my life so much better that it was worth it.

      1. Julianne*

        Same! There are many things about the job I left that I wish were a part of my current job (certain job duties, aspects of workplace culture), but I can live with what I have now because the 50% pay increase makes the life I go home to every night so much more stable and comfortable.

    23. Umvue*

      I left my first grown-up job, which I loved, because the conditions (hours, commute) were no longer right for me. Then I left the second job, which I liked, because personal life stuff changed again and I needed a full-time job with better pay. I did not actually enjoy Job 3 very much, but they loved me and gave reliable raises, so I stuck it out for a little while. Then right as I hit my two year mark there, a miracle occurred, and Job 1 recruited me back at a salary that accounted for the raises I’d had at Job 3 and then some.

      So, not exactly the case the questioner was asking about, but I would put it in the bucket of “stories about leaving a good job that have a happy ending.”

    24. Erika22*

      Giving my notice today and am super nervous – first time leaving a job where I adore my colleagues and enjoy (most of) my work. I’m hoping I don’t end up regretting it, but I know that even if things are going well in a job, sometimes it’s more important to make a change rather than getting stuck, especially if you need to make more money or get a higher title. For me at least, stagnant and happy isn’t actually happy (different than stable and happy). And how can you grow outside of work if you don’t have the resources, monetary or otherwise?

      1. Icklebicklebits*

        Me too! I’m thinking seriously of taking this new job, which takes one aspect of my current job and turns that into a full time position (something I’m generally okay with) but comes with a 25% pay increase. The last time I did this it…. didn’t end well, but I did ignore warning signs during the interview.
        My job right now is good, I like my manager and am on good terms with my co-workers, but if I lose the housing I’m in it’ll basically be all over for me bc they don’t pay enough. New job has a longer commute but better pay and stuff. I’m freaking out a little even though they haven’t made an offer. I haven’t thought seriously of leaving this job for years!

    25. I'm Not Phyllis*

      YES! And I ended up asking for my old job (the one I loved) back within two months of leaving. Though the new gig did come with better pay and benefits it ended up not being at all what I had been offered in terms of the job itself and I knew that I would be miserable there in the long-term. I’ve now been back at this job for almost five months and I know I made the right decision.

    26. Alice M Clark*

      Yes! 4.5 years ago I left a role for a much better salary elsewhere. I missed my old colleagues so much and the new commute was tiring – I just felt constantly down.

      I ended up leaving after a year for a similarly levelled job in the city. I think I realised I’d set too much in store for my old job and I needed an even bigger change to make my life better. I still missed the junior role but over time I’m so relieved I no longer work there – there was no room for promotion and I would’ve grown stagnant.

    27. Audiophile*

      While I didn’t leave a job I loved, I definitely left a company I loved and culture I loved. It was a financial company but I was a contractor basically. Despite my best efforts, and encouragement from high level employees, I couldn’t get anyone in HR to seriously review my resume for an internal position. I was there for 4 years and probably submitted between 5-10 applications for various positions and didn’t get anywhere. I eventually just gave up. When I left, I got questions from those some people about why I was leaving “for a marketing job. We have a marketing department here.”

      Leaving that job didn’t hurt as much as being rejected for a job I truly wanted. I cried at work, in front of co-workers when I got the rejection email. It was a small agency, that has some real interesting clients. The interview went well but ultimately they didn’t ask me back in for a 2nd interview. I had been pinning all my hopes on this because it was 2010, and there were basically no jobs in even a closely related field in my major. It’s funny, had I been offered that job, I wouldn’t have worked at the financial company.

    28. Jules the First*

      I left a job I loved a little over a year ago because their bigger competitor offered me a 40% raise. I took the new job for the money, knowing it had a commute from hell, an insane working hours culture, and a reputation for chewing up and spitting out staff.

      I love my new job. My manager is fantastically supportive, my colleagues are almost universally awesome, my desk has a view of the river and a ton of natural light, I eat lunch in the huge gardens around the corner, the commute is actually not that bad (although it’s long), my working hours are actually saner than OldJob (because NewJob is more flexible), and the extra cash is making a huge difference to my quality of life.

      Money alone cannot make you happy, but we tend to grossly underestimate just how miserable having not-quite-enough money makes us.

    29. Bespectacled Elephant*

      Yes, I left a job I was passionate about at a non-profit for a corporate law firm. It was great even though I had a tough transition (first job out of college to my second job). I got valuable experience, contacts, learned alot, livable wage, and benefits.

    30. Mrs. Fenris*

      Last spring I left a job I sort of loved and sort of hated, for a job I…like ok. I guess that all evens out somewhere. I had really balked at leaving OldJob because there were several excellent things about it that I knew I wouldn’t find anywhere else, but on the other hand the negatives were getting worse every day. It was a very difficult transition for me and I am disappointed that the new job isn’t the super awesome dream job I was hoping for, but it’s fine. And yes, it does pay better with similar benefits, so there’s that.

    31. Solaire*

      I have a negative story about something like this…

      Last summer, I started a new job with a company doing things that are close to my heart, and offered a substantial raise and much better work/life balance. The job I left for this wasn’t perfect, but it had a lot of good things: I got along great with everyone there and I had an incredibly easy commute.

      Unfortunately, the new job didn’t turn out as I expected it to. The department I joined is/was incredibly understaffed, and most of what I was told about job duties in the interview was what they thought would get me to take the job. I was told I was going to be doing specific IT-type work, but most of my day to day was doing completely different things: chasing down contractors for things they owed us, managing interns, and some site visits to supervise field techs installing hardware. I don’t have any experience doing any of this stuff, and I didn’t claim to, because my skill set is in demand and pays well.

      Unsurprisingly, I wasn’t very good at most of the things they wanted me to do. My boss sent me a really nasty email saying he was disappointed in my performance so far, and if I didn’t want to be walked out of the office I’d have to improve. I’m on the autism spectrum, and since the stuff I was being asked to do was entirely “people work”, I sent him and HR emails asking if I could exchange these duties with someone else’s technical work as an accommodation under the ADA.

      My boss forwarded the email with my diagnosis to the other managers in my department along with a message about “excuses”, following up with daily emails saying he was disappointed in my work and that I needed to improve if I wanted to keep working there.

      I sent in my resignation email, handed in my badge, and walked out a few weeks ago. I don’t regret it.

    32. KT*

      I have never left a job for the sole reason of chasing better pay, but I have moved into lower-paying jobs – TWICE. I did these moves to be more in line with my values. I loved it and it was the beginning of a full-on career transition for me, to a totally new field (think: full time corporate role with great pay -> full time charity role but with revenue generating responsibilities, thus okay pay -> full time charity role with frontline service delivery responsibilities, thus the pay is on the low side).

      For anyone considering a pay-drop, it really is liberating to shun materialism/consumerism and live on less, but do be realistic about your financial needs. Unfortunately it is still the case that people can work full-time and still experience poverty/be eligible for benefits (the working poor). I was exceptionally fortunate when I took my pay cuts that I 1) lived with a spouse who also worked full-time, and 2) had no children or other dependents (e.g. elderly parents, etc.)

      I have read that as long as you are paid enough to maintain a basically okay lifestyle, additional money on top of that doesn’t really make one happier. But sometimes we are seduced into thinking that we will be happier with that new designer jacket/latest smartphone/bigger house/luxury car. In fact, neurological scans indicate it’s not the case. As long as you have enough money to not have to worry about money too seriously, more money won’t make you dramatically happier. So I’d recommend focusing on making career changes for other employment benefits, as they often have so much more intangible value.

      Of course, while money in itself might not make you happy, it can definitely be used as a tool if you have a goal in mind. E.g. maybe you want to save up seed capital to start your own business, or you want to run for office to effect positive social change, etc. in which case go for it!

    33. Honeybee*

      Ooh, it’s so funny you asked this because I’m curious about the answers myself. I’m in a job I love – great industry, great company, good benefits and pay. But I’m 2.5 years in and I’m starting to realize that if I want to move up in the next 1-2 years into a more senior or management position, I am probably going to have to go somewhere else. Our team promotes very slowly, and management on the team has been the same for a long time (think several years). None of them are nearing retirement nor do any of them seem at all inclined to go somewhere else. I don’t really see a way for me to move into management here (which is something I think I do want in the future – not necessarily soon, but I can see it). Most of the people who have gotten to about 3-5 years have moved elsewhere if they wanted a senior position or a management position.

      On the positive side, the management team is very explicitly training me for leadership…

  2. Just Peachy*

    Would I still be eligible for mileage reimbursement in the following situation?

    I work for a company than has 31 branches nationwide. In mid-March, I have a required weeklong training at our corporate office that each person in my role from each of the branches is required to attend (I am the only one at my branch in this role). We received an email from our corporate office telling us to work with our managers to schedule flights, and indicating which hotel we will be staying at in the city where our corporate office is located.

    However…my branch (and home) happens to only be 30-40 minutes from our corporate office. I asked my manager if I could just drive back and forth from the training each day instead of being put up in the hotel, which he was fine with.

    Can I still collect mileage reimbursement even though it’s my choice to drive up each day and not stay at the hotel? It would still be cheaper for the company to pay me for my travels than to put me up in a hotel for a week. For reference, I travel to clients’ offices 2-3 times a month, and earn mileage reimbursement regularly for those trips.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I would think so. It’s probably a cost savings you driving and claiming mileage over a hotel for a week.

    2. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      I don’t see why not. Mileage reimbursement are pretty standard, and this seems like a classic example of when to use them.

    3. Yep.*

      Yeah should be fine, but check first. At my place, we can’t claim home to a work event but can claim it as if we went from the office to the event.

      1. Agile Phalanges*

        Yes, if it’s a normal workday for you, I believe you’re supposed to deduct your normal commute. But if the headquarters is farther away than your branch (whether it’s in the same direction or a completely different direction), you should be able to claim the excess. You just don’t get to claim the whole thing if you already would have been driving a certain number of miles anyway. Even if it’s still less than the hotel would have cost. The IRS website has information about this, though it’s kind of a tedious read even with the examples they give. But it should help you out.

      2. essEss*

        That’s similar to the way it has been at all my jobs…. you can claim mileage, but you need to subtract the number of miles you would have driven to your office, and if the distance to the training center is less, then you don’t get any reimbursement.

    4. Murphy*

      I think that would be a reasonable request, particularly if this if further than you typically drive to your branch.

    5. Fabulous*

      Run it past your Travel and Expense person, but it should be OK. They may ask for your manager to send them a formal approval, but as a former T&E specialist I don’t see why it wouldn’t be approved.

    6. Minerva McGonagall*

      Agreed, this should be fine. Most companies ask you to deduct the difference between the distance driven to the special location and your regular commute.

    7. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Assuming you’re in the US – I’m pretty sure the IRS says you can’t deduct your regular commute. Typically, companies will follow IRS rules because they’re not allowed to deduct that expense if it’s against the rules. So you could possibly get reimbursed for the extra distance over your normal commute. Check with your mgr though to be sure.

      1. Just Peachy*

        I would be calculating the distance from my office to the corporate office, I didn’t mean to indicate otherwise in my post!

        3. Boredatwork*

          This sounds 100% okay to me (I am a CPA). You cannot deduct mileage to your “office” but commuting from your office to a “client site” is allowed. Anyone who questions this expense report is a jerk (and probably won’t want you to order guac at chipotle).

    8. behindbj*

      Not necessarily. If depends on whether or not your company deals with Duty Station commuting differently. If you are reporting to the training location directly, and it is the same (or shorter) distance than to your regular report office, they may consider it a regular cost of commuting and not reimburse the mileage.

      1. Just Peachy*

        It’s longer. My current office is 14 minutes north of my home, and the corporate office is 30 minutes north of my current office.

      2. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        I definitely double down on the duty station issue, Peachy. While I think your request is completely reasonable and saves the office money, a lot depends on your office’s policy about mileage reimbursement and if they don’t reimburse you, what you’re allowed to deduct.

        If they don’t reimburse you and you have to deduct your mileage, take a look at https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p463.pdf. It has a lot of great examples that may help.

        1. Natalie*

          Although keep in mine that the deduction for unreimbursed business expense doesn’t kick in until you’ve exceeded 2% of your AGI. One or two trips is extremely unlikely to make it to that threshold.

    9. Anon-J*

      You should be able to claim the lesser of the mileage from your home to the corporate office or the branch office to your corporate office.

    10. Zip Silver*

      Somewhat unrelated: I’d suggest starting at the hotel anyway, even if you can commute from home. Every time I’ve been to this sort of thing, there’s been after-hours networking with the people staying at the hotel. Dinner, a couple of drinks, that sort of thing. Usually worth it to get to know your colleagues from across the country.

      1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        Agree with this. Even if you don’t do it for the full week, it may be nice to see if there are dinners or after hours things going on. Plus depending on traffic and weather it may be a good idea to be closer for start times.

      2. Natalie*

        I don’t know, I think you could still do this and not stay at the hotel. A 30-40 minute drive wouldn’t stop me from going to dinner after the event, plus you miss traffic anyway. YMMV. (Ha, pun!)

    11. Jadelyn*

      I would think so, yes – we had something similar a few months ago when we put on an employee event. We flew in people from the farther-flung branches and put them up in hotels, but there are half a dozen branches within 45 minutes drive of where we held the event, and those people were told to drive (either their own car or a rental, which the company would pay for) and if they used their own car, to submit a mileage reimbursement for the distance between their home branch and the event site (not their home to the event site, since home-to-branch is considered their regular commute and not expensable).

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Just present it as the company won’t have any lodging and dining expense to send you to this conference. Paying mileage has to be a lot cheaper. I bet they go for it.

    13. Apollo Warbucks*

      Yes you can still claim that’s perfectly reasonable, but you might need to deduct your normal mileage from home to your regular office from the total

    14. Mediamaven*

      Ask first but it sounds like you are saving your company a ton of money and they should be thrilled to pay the mileage.

  3. Punkwich*

    I I just cried in a meeting and I feel like an idiot and like no one will ever take me seriously again!! It wasn’t subtle crying, it was fairly extensive. For context – I am 22, this is my first real job, the meeting was about a process that I’ve been doing according to (wrong) instructions for months, I have been trying to correct it but keep being given conflicting information and finally snapped in a meeting and cried! Everyone was nice about it but I still feel very bad about it – how do I make myself look competent again

    1. fposte*

      By moving on from it. If your manager was there, a quick “Sorry that got surprisingly emotional–I definitely still want to be in the conversational loop on this” might be helpful in closing the loop for yourself. But most people will either be sympathetic or, frankly, won’t have much cared either way because it’s not all that important. The more you can treat it the same way, the more you demonstrate that it was a one-off.

      2. Nita*

        That’s good! And maybe should be followed by a discussion of the issues you’ve been having on this project, and asking for advice on how to resolve the conflicting info. It will show your manager that you’re doing your best to deal with the situation professionally, despite running into difficulties.

    2. selina kyle*

      Just keep on trucking and doing well. It sounds minor (and not your fault!) and I’m guessing most people will forget about the tears in a week or so :) Embarrassing moments always seem much bigger to us when they’re ours.
      You’ll be okay.

    3. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

      Pretend that it never happened and most likely others will too. Next time if it gets to the point where you feel like you’re going to snap… do what I do, fake a coughing fit, hold up a hand, and get out of the room to the bathroom or other private place.

      Sorry you got to the point of frustration crying.

        2. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

          +1
          When you sip water, your throat will reflexively open up, getting rid of the “choked up” feeling. I learned that in a stress management/female-empowerment-in-the-workplace seminar a good 15 or so years ago when I was just starting as an exec assistant. One of the most valuable things I ever got from the courses the org thought were “appropriately engaged” for admin staff.

    4. Sloan Kettering*

      FWIW, something that you did in your first job at 22 is unlikely to actually haunt you forever (“no-one will ever take me seriously again”). Big picture, this is a blip. Signed – someone who was fired from a very early job and thought my life was over.

      1. Amber T*

        This! When you’re first starting out, something like this seems huge and humongous and incredibly large and will shape everything forever. I promise you, it won’t. Even if it follows you at this current job (which it may, but it probably won’t), no one will know about it at your next job. And there will be a next job. And probably another weird occurrence (or several) and more weird confusing job stuff and screw ups to come. But there will be good stuff too!

        Sit down with your manager, apologize (once) for crying and get clarification on your instructions. Then work your hardest. If you’re still not getting clear directions, speak up early. “Jane told me to do X, but Wakeen said to do Y, so I’m not entirely sure what to do.” And if you’re manager still can’t manage that, then you have a management problem, not a you problem.

      2. Specialk9*

        Yes. You can survive and come back from most anything. I had a manager who wasn’t the smartest or most competent, but taught me such a good lesson: people take their cues from your behavior, so an unruffled manner will make them lose interest. He was king of going into situations in which I would have been committing sepuku, and giving a calm rundown along the lines of ‘oh hey, that wasn’t the right thing to do, we’ll fix it, and speaking of which…’ The circling sharks didn’t smell blood in the water and went to look for another victim.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yep! Most people who have been in the working world for a good long time have enough perspective to see that young people are going to make mistakes in judgment, and it’s part of growing up — we remember our own! (It’s weird to think of myself as someone who has been in the working world for a while — in the back of my head, I still think I’m 23.)

    5. Rachel in Minneapolis*

      I’ve cried in a meeting before. It’s embarrassing, but I came back from it and worked there another 5 years with appropriate raises and promotions.

      The key for me was to acknowledge that I was overly emotional and be vigilant about being professional after that.

      One thing I did learn: If I feel like I might cry, I quickly excuse myself to the restroom. It’s MUCH less awkward to leave a meeting a little abruptly then to cry in a meeting.

      1. only acting normal*

        I’ve a work friend who cries when angry (much to her annoyance). She called a break on meeting that was getting heated because she was feeling emotional – she was later praised by a senior in the meeting for handling the situation so well, and for diffusing things so effectively. So doing it that way can be actively positive (vs a neutral avoidance of a negative).

    6. Penny*

      I’ve cried (multiple times) at work and I’m 10 years older than you. It’s my natural reaction when I feel angry or cornered. It sucks but it’s okay! You move on, pretend it never happened, and commit yourself to doing a better job next time.

    7. Hey-eh*

      I am a known crier.. have been my entire life. I am just an emotional person with anxiety who cries when they’re stressed. The worst part for me is that people always want to talk to me about it after the fact. Luckily (or perhaps not?) it’s happened enough that my coworkers/bosses are used to it. I had to explain to them the first times that it’s nothing that they did, and that I am fine, and that I just needed to take a step back from [insert project]. It’s embarrassing and frustrating, but in all the places I’ve ever worked not a single person has taken offense to it. They just want to know I’m okay – I’m sure that’s how your coworkers feel too.

    8. Amelia*

      They’ll forget it much faster than you. This happens more than you think.

      I once got in an argument at work and managed to leave intact but then ended up crying in a stairwell. A different coworker walked in on my crying and it was so so so so awkward. We got past it. But seriously, who uses the stairs when you’re on the 15th floor!

    9. Business Manager*

      I did this about 2 months ago! I’m 31, ~6.5 years into my career. I cried in front of my boss, grandboss and another VP and they were sympathetic. I ended up crying in front of the CEO too later. I apologized and blamed school stress (semi accurate). Everything’s fine, they all treat me exactly the same and I’m given the same level of trust.

    10. lahallita*

      I’d like to suggest you request a process description in writing from your supervisor. If s/he is unable to provide one, volunteer that you’d like to work on one for her/his review and approval.
      I feel like this will help point out that the issue is there is no documented process (or at least one that is not easily accessible) and you want to solve the problem!

    11. Little Twelvetoes*

      I’m in my forties and cried in front of the CEO a couple of years ago. So embarrassing. I’m also a blusher, and have had that many embarrass me so many times, too. My advice would be the same as fposte – a quick sorry then move on. It should be fine.

    12. CheeryO*

      Just another voice telling you that it’ll be okay! I know it’s not the same thing, but I started crying during my comprehensive oral exam for my Master’s, then continued to cry all through my evaluation, even after I found out that I had passed. It was humiliating at the time (even though everyone was super nice about it), but now it’s like it never happened – I’m pretty involved with my school as an alumni, and as far as I can tell, I’m not known as That Girl Who Cried.

      We’re only human, and sometimes our emotions get the better of us. As others have said, think about possible ways to ward it off in the future – stepping out of the room, taking a drink of water, biting the inside of your lip, whatever, and try to mentally move on.

    14. Bend & Snap*

      Just pretend it didn’t happen! Everyone has moments. We’re all human.

      Also, I’m 40 and I ugly cried this year when I found out I wasn’t going to get promoted because of reasons not related to performance. That’s been a fun one to put behind me. Luckily my boss is an “it’s important to feel your feelings and it shows you care” type of person.

    15. Competent Commenter*

      I feel like if I’d been in that meeting and heard about how you’d been stuck doing something wrong for two months for reasons outside your control, and that you were then getting conflicting instructions on top of it, and you then snapped and cried with frustration…I’d be embarrassed that my organization was treating you this way and would feel nothing but sympathy.

    16. Yetanotherjennifer*

      It sounds like your thinking is still tied into your emotions. This is a teeny tiny moment that gets averaged out among all your other interactions at work and in your entire career. It’s like the mistakes in a craft project that you can see so well but others don’t notice at all. I’m glad for you that it’s Friday, assuming that you have the weekend away from the office. Try and take good care of yourself this weekend: get outside, exercise, keep busy, eat well, sleep, etc. On Sunday, step outside yourself and imagine the whole scenario happening to someone else. How do you feel about that person? I suspect you’ll feel sympathetic instead of critical and that’s likely how your coworkers view you. Also try and break the situation down to just the facts. What happened when and what were the results. It sounds like you have good reason to be frustrated, and it can take practice to deal with frustrations professionally. You might be someone who cries when frustrated and this is good information to have because you can learn to overcome it or at least delay it. I know I’ve seen other letters about this in the archives, but I wouldn’t research that for a while yet. On Monday, go back in the office and behave as normally as you can. Maybe wear a power outfit or item to give yourself confidence. You might find your emotions rising again when you address this issue at work next week, but you should be able to get through it if you focus on the facts and how to fix the situation.

    17. Punkwich*

      Thank you everyone! I really appreciate your comments. I ended up leaving the office early (due to an incoming ice storm) and am hammering out how to deal with the original issue in a meeting on Monday, and will be much more composed and prepared. It’s good to hear that I’m not the only one who’s cried at work before!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        You will do much better because of thinking about it over the weekend. I am prone to frustration tears. So I started training my brain to state what it is I want from a situation that I am not getting. It sounds like you have too many people telling you how to do a process and imagine that, it’s wrong when you do it. [shakes head, of course, you can only be as good as the advice you get] You could need the inputs of just one person who knows how to do this correctly.

        One option would be to have the boss assign one person who does it correctly to train you.
        The boss could train you herself.
        They could do a department wide training so that the whole department does it the correct way.
        The boss could give you instruction manuals where it makes sense and if there are manuals.

        The weekend will be a wonderful thing, because it will give everyone a chance to think about how THEY contributed to your discomfort and poor training. Monday will be better.

      2. Anon Accountant*

        Hey! I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Happened to me several times in the first few years into my career – so prob from 21 – 25 years. It’s has no negative impact at all – I have received promotions, great feedback, mentorship, and been offered a partnership, all at that same job. It’s not a pleasant experience and I’d obviously try to avoid it, but work can be really stressful and it sounds like the conflicting instructions may have made you feel a little helpless.
        I wouldn’t make too big a deal out of it – apologize very briefly and just once. Say something like “I apologize for having gotten emotional last meeting” and then keep it moving.
        Going forward if you can, maybe try to do the following: if you’re already very stressed or emotional, to the extent possible try to defer conversations that are likely to be triggering. Come up with a script of what you want to discuss in your head and run through the scenarios so you’re not as overwhelmed when the meeting takes place, and try not to dwell on / go into too much detail when you describe something that was very upsetting (like getting conflicting instructions), so that your emotions don’t build up too much. Usually you can convey the relevant information in a very short summary, such as “I got really confused when Sam said that all teapot reports have to be filed by date, and Toby said they are filed by client id #, and I couldn’t figure out what the proper way to do it was. How should I have addressed this issue?”
        Keep your chin up! I’m sure people will have forgotten this in a few weeks!

      3. Hmer35*

        I did this with a brand new boss a few months ago. My previous manager was promoted and double-hatting for several months, so by the time they hired his replacement I was ready to go crazy from the stress of taking over many of his job responsibilities while managing my own workload. Totally lost it on a call with new boss less than 2 weeks into his tenure.

        He was very kind about it. I apologized, and then we talked through the issues that had led to the breakdown and discussed some things we could do quickly as a team to smooth the transition. The next time he and I spoke I made a joke about it to give him the “all clear” that I was sane again, he laughed too, and that was that.

        3 weeks later he offered me a promotion on the team. They really do forget about it much more quickly than you will.

    18. BarkusOrlyus*

      Much of the advice above about not making it into a bigger deal than it needs to be is helpful. I find it’s also important to try and avoid letting it happen again. I used to get emotional at work when I was around your age. What helped was not taking it personally (easier said than done, but still effective)—any situation that involves a lot of humans is going to be, at times, tense and frustrating. Radical acceptance of this helped me get to the “laugh it off rather than cry it out” place. There are limits to this, however, so if this job makes you feel backed into a corner too often, it’s OK to move on.

    19. Mr. Rogers*

      This isn’t going to help at the current workplace, but the nice thing about first jobs is that you soon leave them and can put all those embarrassing moments behind you!

    20. Fiddlesticks*

      I’m so sorry you were hit the frustration wall, but like a lot of people are saying, try not to hold it against yourself too much. Work faux pas when you’re 22 are very, very unlikely to follow you around in your career.

      Lots of people here have already given good advice, so I’ll tell you a story that’ll make you feel better about yourself in contrast to 20-something me: after working 12+ hrs every single day for more than a month, a manager pulled me into a conference room to give me a tough talk about how I wasn’t trying hard enough. I went into a blind rage and started anger crying, which only made me angrier, at which point I threatened to throw an expletive chair through the expletive glass wall of the expletive conference room and expletive walk out that expletive day. I wanna say like, “Shocking I wasn’t fired!” except that job was so expletive toxic I still stand by everything I sad that day and that kind of meltdown was almost routine at ex job.

    21. ..Kat..*

      No advice. Just wanted to give you my sympathetic support. I too have cried at work. I got over it by holding my head high and just continuing on. I still work at this job by the way.

      I seem to remember someone here had some techniques for helping to suppress tears, but don’t remember them.

    22. Mimmy*

      Oh this is so timely! I was reprimanded yesterday by my supervisor (she was very kind) and I cried, and couldn’t stop crying for much of the afternoon. I even cried in front of two coworkers – I was a blubbering mess. Thank goodness they let me cry in the office with the door closed – but my supervisor’s office is next door, so I hope she didn’t hear us :/ By the way, I’m in my 40s with anxiety issues.

  4. Behind the Scenes*

    Quiet/non-flashy people in a competitive workplace, how do you toot your own horn, get assigned to projects, or make a case for your ideas?

    1. Squeeble*

      I’m this person. For me it comes down to being flawlessly dependable. I’ve been assigned to certain (sometimes surprising) projects because–at least this is my perception of it–people know that I’ll come through and do a good job. I’m not flaky and I’m a hard worker.

      As far as making a case for your ideas, I think this can actually be a point in a quiet person’s favor. It means you’re not talking for talking’s sake, and if you have something to say, it’s because it’s important. Most people will pick up on that and be willing to listen. That’s been my experience, at least; I’m sure it doesn’t translate to every office, though.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Dependability has worked for me as well. I have noticed most of the flashier competitive people I’ve worked with tend to be all talk and no follow through, so following through – even just very simple stuff, like “Thanks, I received your file”, makes a big difference to people.

      2. Annabelle*

        I second this. I’m about as quiet and non-flashy as they come, but I work hard and I’m really good at my job. Also, I’m totally with you re: quiet people making a case for their ideas. IMO, managers and decision makes appreciate quieter folks speaking up with new ideas.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        This was definitely true for me at Evil Law Firm (was there for nearly three years in three different roles) and then in the first two divisions I was in at my next company. However, it was not at all true in my last division (the job I just left in December, hence why I left). I was one of their best workers, and had the most designations in the group (which is a big deal in our industry), and yet they bypassed me for a promotion to prop up someone mediocre and who had only been in our division for five minutes. Clearly that environment was not for me.

    2. Parse*

      I feel the struggle. I like to think that if I’m extremely consistent with my work ethic (I respond to emails quickly, get things done on time, don’t make excuses, offer to help others, etc.), people will take notice.

      I don’t want to generalize too hard, but I think that eventually, people start to see through those who are “flashy”, aka. “all talk, no action” kinda people. When there’s a big presentation, sure they might go to someone who is more outgoing and creative, but trust that people will go to you when they want to be assured that the work will accurately get done.

      1. Sloan Kettering*

        There is definitely an art to schmoozing that it’s easy to miss in addition to Snark’s points above about being dependable. I haven’t quite nailed it myself – at my job it takes place in one-on-one conversations offline.

    3. 42*

      I would take a person of influence like a manager aside, or schedule a 1-on-1 with them, and ask to be considered for certain projects that interest you, and explain why.

      1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

        This ^

        As a manager of quiet, non self horn tooters, sometimes I need a hard clue that you are interested in new experiences. 1:1s are great for this discussion. It doesn’t have to be a hard sell, just a word or two that lets me know you are interested in something, especially if there is a specific thing you want to be involved in.

        1. 42*

          >>It doesn’t have to be a hard sell, just a word or two that lets me know you are interested in something, especially if there is a specific thing you want to be involved in.<<

          Exactly what I'm getting at. Just ask.

        2. Artemesia*

          This. You can’t let your sense of self limit you from doing what you need to do. You need to 1. tell your boss what your goals for promotion are or the kinds of projects you hope to work on 2. tell your boss your successes. 2 is most easily done informally but it should be strategic on your part. If clients loved something, you find a time to say ‘I wanted to share this client reaction with you, they were thrilled with our Llama grooming presentation. We were really pleased to have this effect.’ It is always useful to phrase these things as being happy with feedback or happy with X outcome (we exceeded our record week in sales of tea cozies after we placed the ads on Craig’s List). Get over the idea that it is bragging — it is keeping the boss informed and in touch with what you are doing.

      2. Turquoisecow*

        That’s a really good idea. It reminds me of the advice I heard somewhere (which isn’t always true) that many times, if you want a promotion, you need to ask for it.

        Hopefully you have one on ones with your manager (or at least performance reviews), in which the topic is your future plans comes up. If it hasn’t, find time to talk to your manager and state explicitly that you’d like to be promoted, or that a certain project interests you.

        As a relatively quiet person (in some contexts anyway), I find that sometimes managers assume that I’d like to just keep working at what I’m doing rather than advance or develop in any way. Once I made that clear, my boss was definitely willing to do whatever he could to help me learn new skills, take on more responsibility, and get ahead. He also had some good ideas about what parts of the business he thought I would excel at and find interesting.

    4. Future Analyst*

      Keep a folder with “good feedback” emails, and when it’s time for a review/promotion, etc., you refer to those and highlighted what you did well. I find it much easier to showcase things I did well in writing (as opposed to being able to talk about it), but if your office culture dictates talking about things you did well, practice! With a friend/spouse/cat, or even in the mirror, say “Hi __, I’m interested in being staffed to the xyz project, and I think I’d make a good fit based on my work on the abc project. If you recall, Jack and Jill were very pleased with my llama wrangling skills, and I think those would transfer well to the goat rodeo.” It feels awkward, but like most things, practice makes it slightly less so. :)

    5. Specialk9*

      Honestly, I think you need to find ways to speak up, because managers don’t notice the quiet competent one as much. It’s not fair, but it’s likely up to you to find ways to get recognition.

      I am female and look very young, in a male industry. I make a point of making a short, mentally rehearsed comment, delivered with full gravitas and confidence, in every major meeting. I monitor carefully to not be That Person who talks too much or derails, but I speak up.

      I also find ways to be the coordinator. I write the status reports and send the emails keeping things moving. It’s a work focused communication that doesn’t trigger the same shy reaction that public speaking does.

      And I force myself to do public speaking. It suuuuucks, but I practice like crazy, including the warm impromptu sounding bits. Toastmaster is a great resource.

    6. kas*

      Like the others have mentioned above, by being dependable, always being willing to help out and speaking up. I had one amazing manager who knew I worked hard and took my work seriously so when an opportunity came up to work on a project with a more senior manager in a different department, he mentioned my name. I was really able to put myself out there and made new connections. I was then promoted to another position.

      I’m also very vocal if I want to try something new. I’ve had a meeting with a manager before to let him know I was interested in another department at another office and he reached out to his contact to set-up a meeting for me. He also assigned me to a project that would give me more experience to better my resume. He definitely would not do this for everyone.

      Sometimes your work speaks for itself, especially if you have great managers that pay attention. If you feel that you need to speak up, I would just mention what projects you are interested in and if there’s an opportunity to work on the projects. Even if there’s no opportunity at the moment, at least you put it out there for any future opportunities.

    7. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Something my manager has repeatedly praised me on is my willingness to do my work. This sounds funny, but what I mean is – he’ll come to me and say, “I need you to do X/look into Y” or whatever. I say, “Okay I will do that” and get to work. I don’t immediately throw up walls, ask a million questions, or otherwise stonewall him. Often I will have questions, but I ask them in a neutral, information-seeking manner, and typically they will come after I research whatever I can first.

      In my work life, I’ve encountered a lot of flashy people that take a task their boss has given them and just immediately dismantle it, question it, and otherwise talk a bunch about either why they can’t do it, or how to improve it (when improvements are not needed at that point). Those aren’t necessarily bad things in moderation, but to default to it for every task your boss asks you to do is wearying. My take on it is that the more competitive people I’ve worked with REALLY WANT YOU TO KNOW how smart and special they are.

      1. Squeeble*

        Ooooh, this is such a good point. Being willing to just do the job, even if it’s tedious or thankless, has served me well, too.

        Recently I got the chance to do some last-minute travel to a big presentation because the presenters needed a good notetaker. They were super grateful to me for being willing to come out and do it, and in my head I’m like, score! Free travel! Of course I’ll do it!

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        I’d say YMMV on that one. I’ve read about how promotions and bonuses are typically earned “on the margins” meaning the work that’s outside the core of job descriptions. If you’re doing the coordinating, administrative, support type work and someone else is using that time bringing in a new client, you’re not going to be rewarded in my experience.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Oh absolutely, you have to know your workplace and the culture. In my experience, the things I was being asked to do were the exact same things as the more competitive people, so we were on equal footing.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Speak up. (In meetings, or wherever is appropriate for the goal.) If you weigh in only occasionally, but make really good points when you do, people will notice. But if surrounded by fast talkers, you have to be willing to push yourself forward a bit and seize the floor for a minute to make your good point.

    10. Camellia*

      I’ve read the great comments here and would add one: watch your body language.

      I just had the opportunity to observe this again yesterday. I have a couple of quiet/non flashy coworkers, but one of them hunches their shoulders forward, often with crossed arms like they are huddling in on themselves, ducks their head down a lot, and so forth. The other maintains an upright posture, looks at people when they speak, and so on. They are both smart and good at their jobs but guess which one makes a better impression?

      1. Specialk9*

        YES. I had a coworker/ occasional subordinate (depending on the project) and she was hella smart, but her body language was so look-away-middle-school-girl that it was hard to take her seriously. She hunched her shoulders, spoke softly, stood with her toes pointing inward, and just meeeelted.

        Then one day she started standing straight, speaking confidently, and taking charge of her tasks. It was startling. But suddenly she was someone I’d hand my project over to, whereas before the client would have been eaten her alive.

    11. Dead Quote Olympics*

      It might depend on exactly what competitive means in your environment. If you are surrounded by genuinely competent co-workers who are all competing to get their good ideas or stellar work out there in front of their manager, then you are going to have to find ways to ask for the work that interests you, point out your successes, etc. It’s not necessarily true that competitiveness goes hand in hand with empty flashiness. As others have noted, it could be that your promotion of your work interests gets done in one on one meetings or in less public ways, or you might have to set yourself a goal like “in every third meeting, I will speak up about my work/lay claim to a project” and just practice getting comfortable doing it.

      If, however, you are surrounded by coworkers that skew more to “all hat and no cattle,” then your quiet competence is more likely to be standing out anyway. I have a small but high performing staff who are very low drama in general. There are two who are more high maintenance/high drama about their work, even though they are quite capable on high profile projects. If the drama quotient goes up, I tend to appreciate the quiet, dependable, low drama performers even more.

    12. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I call it the gentle art of shameless self promotion and it is something you need to learn because people who are quietly competent tend to blend in rather than stand out. But I’ll leave the specifics to other commenters. I’ve been out of the office too long and the tactics of the person who inspired the phrase may not be appropriate now.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Getting assigned projects:
      Tell the boss that you need more to do, if that is true.
      Express interest in a particular type of project, if that is true.
      Remind the boss of experiences you have had, “Boss, I have polished teapots before. I notice you seem to be rotating that project through our group, but I never get it. I can do a decent polish job and I don’t mind taking my turn.”
      Pay attention to what the boss complains about. “Boss, I know you and many others find the overflowing waste cans around here super annoying. I got to thinking about how that could be a safety hazard also. I noticed a noticed a stack of larger waste cans in the back of the supply room that no one seems to want. Maybe we could swap ours for those?” The key in this story is that you don’t give a fig either way about the waste cans. But you happen to notice that others do and you happen to notice a solution. The waste cans are totally irrelevant to what you do and yet it’s a simple fix for some inconvenient big picture problem.

      Making a case for your ideas:
      Know your boss. Every boss has pet concerns that they keep going back to. For example, you know that the boss will frequently respond with, “Regarding your idea on the teapots, how will that effect teapot quality if we do this?” Be ready to answer these types of questions BEFORE you begin presenting your ideas. If you get stuck with not knowing an answer ask for time out, to go find out and come back to the discussion later. Don’t be embarrassed by not knowing, you can build HUGE credibility when you come back with a well researched answer.

      Typically bosses respond to ideas that save money, save time or improve accuracy. Be able to clearly show how an idea will save money/time or improve accuracy. Start by presenting the Best of Your Best ideas. Bring in an idea that you feel is fairly bullet proof, it’s so well thought out and just makes so much sense. Presenting these solid ideas is a good way to build confidence. And there is an interesting side-effect. You will get into conversation with the boss about the idea and you will start to get some insight as to how the boss thinks. Once you have a better idea of what concerns the boss or how the boss looks at things, you will be able to present more and more ideas.
      For example, you could present you waste can solution in the above example. Suddenly, it seems the boss turns the tables and it’s not the over flowing cans that actually bother her. It’s the huge amount of paper that is wasted everyday that upsets her. In this example, consider yourself a day older and a day wiser. You got the boss to clearly state what the actual problem is. A good response here is, “Oh, Okay. I will keep that in the back of my head and see if I can figure out something different we can do.” I have said things like this and it has been a year or two before I came back to the conversation. Do not be embarrassed by taking so long, the sheer fact that the problem is still going on telegraphs that no one else has figured out what to do either. Bringing it up again, when you get that rock solid idea, shows that you are a person of your word.
      A very key thing to hold on to: When you present an idea and the boss ask questions don’t get discouraged. Instead look at the nature of the questions. Bosses who are really considering an idea show a progression in their questioning. They ask thinking person questions, don’t let these types of questions derail you, keep going.

    14. Em Too*

      Sometimes it’s easier to do these things by email, or one-to-one, rather than in a big meeting. ‘Manager, I think it would be a really good idea if this project had someone looking at [specific angle] – shall I look into it?

    15. Jules the First*

      Build a big internal network. The more people who know your work is good and that you’re a good team player, the more likely it is that your name comes up when they’re all sitting around talking about who to put on the next big project. It’s infinitely easier to get on the project if someone says “what about arya?” and everyone around the table goes “oh yeah, arya does great work!” If someone says “what about arya?” and people around the table say “who?” you’re much less likely to get staffed.

    16. Katrina Turner*

      A couple of tips that helped me when I worked in a competitive corporate workplace:

      1) Maybe you can become more comfortable with “self-promotion” by making it more oriented around thanking the people who contributed. A bit like an Oscars award acceptance speech, make an announcement (whether at a company meeting/event or through email or internal social media channel) outlining the success of your project, and list everyone you’d like to thank and why. E.g. “We just pulled off another fantastic program, I’d love to share these photos and results – 100% this and 94% this and 92% that, etc. I would love to thank the following people: Cersei Lannister for running an engaging and exciting workshop. Ned Stark for giving an inspiring presentation. Robert Baratheon for being a great liaison and Jon Snow for your indispensable AV support. We couldn’t have made this happen without such a wonderful team and I’m excited to continue to work with you to drive even bigger and better programs in the future.” That way you are promoting the work you did but making sure you highlight and thank others so it doesn’t come across as ego-centric?

      2) On the other side of the coin, realise that sometimes it’s not a bad thing to “toot your own horn” if it really is something that others would generally say about you. Of course it’s one thing to exaggerate about yourself, but if it’s quite objective and measurable it’s not really being flashy to honestly and openly express it. One experience I had which really helped me realise this was when a manager (not my direct manager, but an influential one in a separate department) encouraged me to be profiled on an internal company site that showcased exceptional performers. Initially I thought “hmmm…” and was a bit reticent/thought I didn’t deserve to be profiled there, but then he went ahead and sent me a full write-up of what he would write for my profile if he was me (I think from memory he had even written it in first-person and everything), and basically said “I didn’t want you to go to additional trouble to answer all the profile questions so you can just copy all this in if you like, don’t think of it as “tooting your own horn” because it’s all 100% true.” He literally used the phrase “don’t think of it as tooting your own horn”, and it helped me realise that if I could hand on heart honestly say that someone else would say this about me, it was probably true enough to be able to say about myself.

      3) Build a strong relationship with a sponsor, or even multiple sponsors, within your company – whether this is your direct manager or someone else, who has the influence and inclination to advocate on your behalf to get assigned to projects, etc. This way you could communicate your ideas and perspectives in 1:1 scenarios rather than having to do it more publicly.

      Hope this helps?

  5. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Since there has been so much policing, nitpicking, sniping and just plain ol’ being out for blood lately, I thought I’d try to interject some kindness.

    I’m still relatively new to the community, but I have enjoyed it immensely. I’ve learned A LOT – both from Allison and the commenters. I’ve also laughed a lot. Maybe even cried a little from some of the stories. You all are some of the best people and storytellers I’ve ever come across. And that includes the letter writers!

    Personally, it’s done me a world of good to see that people from all sorts of different paths see value in each others experiences. Being someone who can often be viewed as unimportant (and is frequently treated that way at my office), it has been heartwarming to know that my knowledge and viewpoint is/should be valued.

    I’d also like to thank Allison for cultivating an intelligent, kind, and thoughtful community. There seems to be a rough patch right now, so I especially appreciate her efforts in moderating. That can’t be easy.

    1. Jo*

      This may (ironically) come across as nitpicking, but has there been much sniping? I’ve been reading here for years (not much of a commenter though) and the tone hasn’t really shifted much.

      1. Someone Else Needs The Wood*

        There’s too much mob mentality and pile on. If someone expresses a dissenting view point, the long time favorites around here will go nuts telling you why you’re wrong and how wrong you are. Snark is the best example of this.

        1. Snark*

          Best example of a longtime favorite going nuts and telling people they’re wrong, or best example of being gone nuts on and told I’m wrong?

          3. Specialk9*

            I read it as an example of mob mentality and piling on. Ie a mob attacking Snark, not a mob made up of Snark clones.

          4. Mike C.*

            The thing that irritates me about these situations is that it gets really hard to reply to everyone, or the rare case where the OP drops in and posts something that changes everything.

            Oh, and the idea that someone isn’t disagreeing just to argue rather than actually believing something.

        2. Emi.*

          There’s definitely a party line. What I find most frustrating is when someone (usually a newcomer) gets piled on and tries to respond to multiple (more or less aggressive) comments in the pile, and then someone gets all “Why do you keep saying this, you’ve already made it perfectly clear that you think [absurd straw man], why are you going on about it?”

          1. Oranges*

            I think that’s because we’ve gotten larger so we don’t realize it’s a pile on until too late? Because yes, it does happen and then people get defensive (both sides of the debate usually) and dig in which isn’t great. I have no clue how to fix though.

            1. Jesca*

              I think we should just make pacts to call it out when we see it. Like hey, this is getting too personal and leaving the world of debate.

            2. Sloan Kittering*

              I will say there are also so many comments on a thread now (which is great!) that nobody can read them all before commenting. I open a comment and the thread has tripled by the time I hit “post” so now I look like I’m repeating 20 other people. It’s almost a good problem to have, but I’m not sure how to address it.

              1. Tuna Melts*

                “I open a comment and the thread has tripled by the time I hit “post” so now I look like I’m repeating 20 other people.”

                Yes, this!

                Great minds think alike, I guess?

              2. Jules the Third*

                AAM needs a better commenting system. It would save so many problems if we just had a simple ‘like / dislike’ option, which I see in a lot of different blog systems, not just facebook.

                The volume of readers has outgrown this simple format.

                1. Elizabeth H.*

                  I really don’t want like/dislike button I like that this is a comments section that’s actually used as a comments section, NOT a message board or a forum. Even though there are weekend open threads for off-topic conversation, which I think can be more of a source of building personal connections among commenters in a forum-like way, I appreciate that it is about substantial discussion rather than popularity of certain posts.

                2. Specialk9*

                  AAM’s comment section is a unicorn-infested wonderland of rainbows compared to Slate’s Livefyre hell.

              3. Emi.*

                Yeah, my specific pet peeve is people attacking the original dissenter for “saying the same thing over and over” in response to the pile-on, so they definitely saw how many comments there were. It’s not the biggest problem but it really gets under my skin.

      2. Future Analyst*

        Also a reader for years, and things have felt rough for a while. Not so much so that I’d stop reading/commenting, but there’s certainly something. Personally, I know that my tolerance for BS has gone down significantly since Nov 2016, so I’m much quicker to call someone on it if they’re saying something out of line. Yesterday’s slut-shaming for women who don’t want to keep their legs glued together for 8+ hours a day really pissed me off.

        1. Bostonian*

          Me too. …women who don’t want to keep their legs glued shut OR who don’t want to change their wardrobe.

          I mostly wear pants and don’t find skirts particularly comfortable/flattering for my body type, so if I were at a workplace where suddenly I had to switch to skirts, it would be a major put-out for me. I imagine the same is true for the inverse scenario.

        3. Emi.*

          I saw a lot of things I thought were unreasonable, but nothing that qualified as “slut-shaming.” Can you link to an example?

          But going off that post, I think there’s generally a problem of (even superficially) similar views being treated as though they’re the same. I did see some non-slut-shaming comments being treated (not by you in particular, and maybe not even at all–I don’t remember) as though they were slut-shaming, just because they also invoked propriety or modesty, or said you shouldn’t sit a certain way in certain outfits. There’s certainly a reasonable version of that, but it sometimes gets thrown in with less reasonable views, and I do think a focus on “keeping people in line” exacerbates that tendency.

          1. Future Analyst*

            Just a few samples below. And to be clear, I don’t think anyone overtly called the OP a slut, just implied that she is less-than because she’s “not as modest” as the person commenting, which is a common way to undercut women. (And conveniently plays into the familiar, “but what were you wearing?” discussion) If you take issue with my use of the phrase “slut-shaming,” okay: I’m fine using whatever other term properly conveys that the OP was being treated as immodest (in part by other women, no less!), and a simple request for updated furniture became an issue of morality. For me, “slut-shaming” is a good short-hand for that, but to each their own. I don’t intend to start a new discussion right here about yesterday’s comments, but would be happy to continue the discussion below.

            https://www.askamanager.org/2018/01/how-can-i-get-a-coworker-to-take-computer-classes-new-desks-dont-work-with-skirts-and-more.html#comment-1799454
            “I keep my legs closed when I’m wearing a dress. OPs focus on that feel unbelievable to me” (Implication: I am modest enough to not need a modesty board, OP must be flaunting her goods)

            https://www.askamanager.org/2018/01/how-can-i-get-a-coworker-to-take-computer-classes-new-desks-dont-work-with-skirts-and-more.html#comment-1799268
            “I’m having a hard time picturing this being an issue unless you’re sitting with splayed legs or wearing a mini skirt”

            https://www.askamanager.org/2018/01/how-can-i-get-a-coworker-to-take-computer-classes-new-desks-dont-work-with-skirts-and-more.html#comment-1799353
            “my mother always drilled in me to keep my legs closed/crossed at all times”

            2. Jesca*

              Yeah, I think they touched on it a little yesterday under that one post I made that a lot of time people don’t realize how conditioned they have been to accommodate less than equal work places and in a society as a whole.

              I think it came across to many people as condescending to suggest that the OP just doesn’t know how to sit correctly, and if she just learned, then she wouldn’t be complaining about something so ridiculous – I like to think people did not mean to come off that way, but it really did.

        4. Plague of frogs*

          “You wouldn’t have this problem if you just kept your knees together” is, like, never the right thing to say. Yesterday pissed me off too.

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        As a very long-time reader (and formerly much more prolific commenter), there was a transition in tone several years ago, as the site grew. I enjoy the comment section less now than I used to, but it’s still remarkably thoughtful and engaged compared to pretty much anywhere else online.

        1. Jesca*

          Yes, I have lurked for a long. I do enjoy going back and reading the older posts.

          I think the shift too though also may be because more polarizing posts are coming in than before, and we are all learning that not everything is as black and white as we once thought.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes, I think it actually happened a couple of years ago when the commenting community became larger. It’s been particularly bad in the last week or so though, which happens every single year in January (and I assume is related to weather). The tenor of some comments on yesterday’s post about the desks was really awful.

          And in the last year or so, I’ve moderated much less consistently than I used to, since a combination of workload and the volume of comments means that I read a lower proportion of them than I used to. I’ve more or less made my peace with the fact that I can’t moderate as thoroughly/consistently as I’d ideally like to, but I do think this is one of the trade-offs. (That said, I’m hoping to be a bit more active in moderating at some point — just in a particularly work-heavy period right now.)

          Overall, though, I still think this comment section is far better than most when it comes to thoughtfulness and civility.

          1. Dorothy Zbornak*

            Have you ever thought about bringing on trusted volunteer moderators from our pool of commenters, to help with the workload?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, but I’ve never wanted to do it. Everyone makes different judgment calls about when something is over the line, and I don’t want someone removing things that I wouldn’t have removed, or so forth. The logistics of scheduling would also be a pain since my schedule is constantly fluctuating, but the bigger issue is that I’m wary of ceding the judgment calls to someone else. (I also don’t think I could ethically ask people to volunteer their time and work, rather than paying them.)

              And really, right now I don’t think it needs it. People aren’t going to get a perfectly curated experience here and sometimes things will get messier than I’d want, but that’s okay.

              2. Oranges*

                Have you thought of “deputizing” some commentators who would have slightly more authority to go “Stop this” and then call you in if they think it’s warranted? Just to act as your eyes?

                1. Emi.*

                  I personally think that having officially designated Special Commenters would dramatically exacerbate the problem of cliquey-ness.

                2. Eva*

                  Hi Eva. I have you on moderation because of some sock puppetry a while ago (posting under different names to agree with yourself). I’m not releasing from moderation the comment that you keep trying to post here because I don’t want you attacking other commenters. Thanks for understanding. – Alison

                5. Semi regular*

                  There are a couple of posters who have pretty much taken on that role all on their own so she really doesn’t need to do that, her allowing them to do it gives them permission to continue. I’ve never been a super prolific commenter, but sometimes I have an opinion that is contrary (even just a little) to the party line but just decide not to post it because I know that disagreeing with the in crowd is an invitation to be accused of all kinds of “issue-ist” behavior. I certainly read less of the comments too, it’s a little too much sometimes.

                  YMMV

                6. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  There are a couple of posters who have pretty much taken on that role all on their own so she really doesn’t need to do that, her allowing them to do it gives them permission to continue.

                  I struggle with this. I don’t like some of this when I see it, and it’s sometimes not the same call I would have made so I’m not thrilled to see attempts to enforce a rule that I don’t think has been violated. But there are other times when having a community that does self-police to a large extent is very helpful, so I don’t want to shut it down entirely. And there’s no way to say “self-police but you have to read my mind and do it exactly how I want you to,” and so I’ve just lived with this imperfect mix of it, so far at least.

                7. essEss*

                  I’ve seen that get problematic on other chat boards because when a deputy does step in, some people don’t know they have the authority to correct others then it turns into a ‘you can’t tell me what to do’ fight. Conversely, because some people are allowed to correct others, non-deputies begin to correct others because they aren’t aware that they have to be designated as deputies to be able to do it. Then people being corrected don’t know if it is an official correction, or just a busybody throwing their weight around.

                8. Specialk9*

                  Emi, I think it would work fine. Look at Evan (formerly VVU) on Slate – he both moderates, comments, and writes articles.

                  But there are people with consistently respectful, kind, thoughtful posts. (Not me, I have an Irish temper. But other people.)

              3. Todd Chrisley Knows Best*

                What about an option to flag comments? I know I’m some forums there would be people flagging just to flag, but I think we’re mostly reasonable people that could use it responsibly.

                1. galatea*

                  Being able to flag comments would be nice — as it is, sometimes there are comments that are outright offensive that go up and stay up (I remember a comment calling requesting trigger warnings as “autistic screeching”, which — jeez, yikes)

              4. Jules the Third*

                Have you considered changing your comment technology? A simple ‘like / dislike’ or ‘upvote / downvote’ would let people express themselves while reducing the volume of actual posts needed for review.

                Also, there’s ways to handle the trusted delegate that could be real positives for you.
                – Don’t have them ban, have them flag some for you to review
                – Help them with a ‘trusted commenters’ list (Snark, Consuela, Ramona, Victoria are easy for example), and people ‘earn’ their way on to that list with a flagged comments to comments ratio, or some other ‘like / dislike’ metric
                – Think about an internship.

                You *might* even check with local high schools to see if they’ve got any particularly woke / mature students in need of a job. Set it up for remote control and provide a laptop, they could review during study hall and after school. Kids are *remarkably* savvy about internet meanness these days. Yes, there’s quality control issues, but you can put guidelines and training down that mitigate them.

                This blog is getting too big to manage by yourself, esp if it’s a second job. Start looking at how to handle the growth now; you’re already about two viral posts behind.

                1. Ramona Flowers*

                  I am very flattered to be listed here but I definitely post poorly judged comments at times.

                  I think upvotes are problematic as they can fuel a herd mentality.

                3. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  There’s a discussion that starts here about why I don’t want to do upvotes:
                  https://www.askamanager.org/2017/03/open-thread-march-17-18-2017.html#comment-1407130
                  (keep scrolling down)

                  On the other stuff … I don’t want the site to become that, really. That stuff all sounds like a headache to me, and I do the site because it brings me joy and I think helps people. I’m okay with it being a little messy at times because of the growth, if that’s the price of avoiding the stuff that I’m really not interested in taking on. I figured out a while ago that I need to run things in a way that’s sustainable for me and won’t burn me out by turning the whole thing into a headache.

                4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  I’m with Ramona! (Although I very much appreciate the implied compliment.)

                  I am too argumentative/hot-tempered, sometimes, to be a reliable flagger… and I do worry that it would create power dynamics that would cause more, not less, friction among the commentariat. :( But I have seen these methods work with other boards/comment sections, and I understand why these approaches can be effective in other contexts.

              5. Magenta Sky*

                There is wisdom in what you say. One of the things I’ve noticed about web forums (this isn’t exactly a forum, but it’s close enough on this) is that once there is enough traffic to need multiple moderators, cliques start to form, and those cliques get very, very good, very quickly, at playing moderators off against one another. And they basically take over the forum. The favorites can get away with anything under the protection of their favorite moderator, and anyone who crosses them, no matter how well behaved they are objectively, is punished. It’s an inevitable facet of human nature, I think.

                1. Lissa*

                  Yes and it isn’t even intentional. There are a few commenters here who get a lot of praise and tend to “get away” with more. I don’t think it’s intentional, and some of these people are those that I like, but it mirrors something I see in the real world too. We give people the benefit of the doubt more if we know them and see them as more than one insensitive comment, but if a new “name” does it people are more likely to all jump.

                  I also wish people wouldn’t post if all they are saying is something like “No, just no” or “Wow.” Or any sarcastic one-liner that’s dismissing somebody’s comment. Especially when there are already a dozen other comments saying the same thing.

            2. Lady Phoenix*

              I too kinda agree on appointing some “Mods” who can make discussions end and ban then trolls.

              But maybe look around, like Doctor Nerdlove and Capatain Awkward.

              But another things, maybe close the comments the moment you post a story if you know you can’t moderate (vacation, super busy, etc)

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I have closed comments a few times when I felt like things were getting really out of hand and I didn’t have time to wade into it right then. But in general, I reserve that for really extreme cases. I don’t love it when discussions get contentious or weird, but I also figure we’re all adults who can handle it or step away if we don’t like it. (I’m less comfortable with that stance when the problem is that a letter writer is being treated terribly, though.)

                1. Lady Phoenix*

                  I guess it is more of if you really can’t commit to moderating the comments for that day—especially on hot issues—that it is better to cut it off at the pass and maybe save it for friday discussions than to come back to a flaming nuke pile of bullshit

              2. LCL*

                I don’t see Captain Awkward as a good example of moderating comments. Sure, she bans trolls, but there’s way too much ‘we’re all victims of something and if you don’t agree you are committing erasure’ in many of her comment sections. And she allows pile ons if you post something against the hive mind. Of course its her site and she can do whatever she pleases with it, but I find her comment section often very distasteful and would hate to see this site go in that direction.

                1. Elizabeth H.*

                  I completely agree. I don’t like that effect and I like that there are dissenting views here.

                2. Natalie*

                  Yep. The only time I read the comments regularly was when I was struggling with a particular thing that comes up there a lot (bad relationship) and the many, many validating comments on those posts were so helpful to me. But since then I find the comments section frankly boring and repetitive at best. Still love the posts themselves, though.

                3. Sloan Kittering*

                  I struggle so hard with that comment section. On one hand, I really enjoy her blog and I think I can up my game on consciousness/privilege things her readers are quick to point out. On the other hand, I feel like it quickly gets into the Oppression Olympics and I have to bail early on that. I see in a lot of liberal circles (and I am a liberal) that there’s a sort of out-victiming that goes on … the greatest victim wins the discussion somehow, so people are always laying out their cards on the table in a way that is weird to me. As you say, though, it’s her own site and she can run it however she likes.

                4. Lady Phoenix*

                  Yeah, especially after one of the previous letters had an OP who was essentially suicide guilt tripping her lover into staying and the commenters were subtly blaming the lover for being promiscuous.

                  I guess it is more like I like how she closes discussions on days she can’t moderate… even though she does have a forum for people to talk about it.

                  As for moderators, Doctor Nerdlove can be good. They will allow discussions and chances, and only block obvious trolls or really rude people who were given a chance to change and don’t.
                  Just this week there was a guy who claimed that it was ok to harass and assault/forcibly hug women because they “love” then and they are “incredibly lonely with 5 years of no human contact”. After a good bit of everyone going “what the hell” he still doubled on this point and the mods were like “yeah, we’re banning him because this dude is not gonna change and he is perpetuating something really awful”

                5. Specialk9*

                  Yeah – Captain Awkward writes glorious blog posts, and absolutely nails how to navigate and detect above abusive dynamics… but also gets really mad in the comments and yells at everyone.

                  And I always walk away from CA giving my (wonderfully feminist) husband the stink eye, which he doesn’t deserve.

                6. Magenta Sky*

                  For bad moderating, nothing, but *nothing* can compare to the roleplaying forums at rpg.net.

                  Moderators inform you they are moderators in their .sigs. If you mention they are moderators in a post, they will ban you (because you are interfering with their enjoyment as participants, I guess).

                  If you dispute anything (and I do mean *anything*) said by someone claiming to be female (even after it is proven they’re a sock puppet), you’ll be banned.

                  One guy was banned for refusing to do something he’d be banned for. (The moderator *said* that.)

                  Captain Awkward’s community does, indeed, have a certain hive mind quality, and will swarm all over anyone who gets in its way, but it’s the picture of civility by comparison to rpg.net. But then, so is the average riot.

          2. Helen*

            Candi told me off hard for posting multiple times in the same question when I had only posted one single time. She was very rude and said she irritated at me for something I did not do (and then she supported someone who actually did post multiple times and said she did because they were not me). I really turned me off from commenting here for a while. Especially as no one backed me up even though I didn’t do anything.

              1. Bostonian*

                I just realized my comment sounded harsher than was intended. The point was: somebody did back you up, so at least that’s something. It’s crappy that you were called out that way incorrectly. I have also been turned off by unnecessarily hostile responses to a comment of mine here and there (so much so that I’ve changed names a couple times), so it definitely sours the experience.

                1. Little Twelvetoes*

                  I have also changed my name. Partly as a way to make me soften my own tone (which I know can sound wrong when I write), but partly because I don’t want to be reminded of past exchanges.

                2. MissingArizona*

                  I’ve also done a name change due to piling on. So much gets lost over text, and some people just go straight to negative. There are still a lot of positive people to defend someone, so I stay because of them.

                3. MilkMoon (UK)*

                  I’ve taken a six-month break from even visiting the site at all, and then came back with a different name, due to reactions to my comments before too. After yesterday I’m tempted to again.

                  I’ve even posted what I could clearly see would be a controversial comment, not to antagonise but because it was my genuine feeling, and then just left the post and never returned, because I just knew people would be awful to me (after reading the other comments) and I didn’t want to deal with it. I really feel like noone should have to do that.

            3. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I think one thing to remember — and it can be hard to remember when you’re in the middle of it! — is that this is a large group of strangers from all different walks of life, and people have different ways of talking — some people think they sound perfectly calm but sound really strident to others, and so forth. And then add in that people use comment sections differently — some people come in, skim, leave a comment, and move on. Some people treat them more like discussions where they’re reading everything. So I could see how it could feel like “no one backed me up,” but it could also just be that people aren’t reading that closely or taking note of who said what, etc. (I think too that if someone tells you off for doing something you didn’t do, you’re going to be happier if you just assume that were mistaken and move on — since they’re reacting to something that didn’t happen. But again, I know it’s hard to do when it feels personal.)

            4. Jesca*

              Yes, that quick thread there was really unnecessary there, but others did actually step in and shut it off. If I see someone else stepping, sometimes I don’t comment because it was handled and the “perps” were officially shut down and proven wrong.

              I really hate when people behave the way those did, though. But I would not let them tear you down and shut YOUR voice off. That whole thread there was truly bizarre, and it really had nothing to do with you! It was just ignorance and then a rude defense of ignorance on their parts. That’s how I tend to work through those things myself. I hope you keep commenting!

            5. You're Not My Supervisor*

              I also had someone go berserk on me over something that didn’t even make sense (regular commenter here but I won’t name them). I stopped commenting for about a year, and changed my name when I did start commenting again.

              It’s a shame that this stuff happens, but there’s not much Alison can do given the volume of comments here every day.

              1. Plague of frogs*

                I don’t know what your previous name was, but your new one is AWESOME. Every time I see it I hear Cheryl’s voice shrieking it in my head.

          3. Triumphant Fox*

            January is also just a time when everyone is stressed – so many people are home sick, have just dealt with travel and relatives and cooking for an inordinate number of people who don’t seem particularly grateful. My holidays were lovely, but I get the sense that on top of the weather, January is just a really tough time for people.

        3. Coalea*

          I’m a relatively new reader, so I can’t speak to what things may have been like a few years ago; I do find that the commenters are much more civil than those I have encountered elsewhere. I like the fact that either Alison or one of the “regulars” will remind us all of the commenting guidelines when things start to take a turn for the nasty.

      4. Enough*

        There have been commenters in the past who have been shut down but now no longer comment. Now it seem like the occasional one off. And I think that most of the time it is more a misunderstanding because it’s difficult to write so you understand the tone of the writer.

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          I stopped commenting for a while, but I’ve come back with a different name for a few comments here and there. I agree that it is so easy to misunderstand the tone of someone before. In one case, I asked for a clarification in someone’s tone, and was so pleased to find that what they meant was more supportive, not negative. I was glad I asked, because now I appreciate comments from that poster (who often has a different opinion than mine) so much more than I used to.

          1. Little Twelvetoes*

            Normally, I wouldn’t try to correct a simple typo, but I have no idea why the word “before” ended up where it did, and it changes the meaning of that sentence!!!

            “I agree that is so easy to misunderstand the tone of someone in writing.”

          2. Not a Real Giraffe*

            Yes, inferring tone can be so hard. There used to be a couple specific usernames I would see that made me immediately groan until I realized the tone I assumed for them was the OPPOSITE of the tone they intended. Some of those commenters have now become my favorites on this site because they often represent a viewpoint that challenges my own, and often in a respectful and thoughtful way.

            But realizing the interpretation of their tone was on me, not on them, help me reframe how I viewed those comments.

      6. Libby*

        I mean it’s still a waaaaaay better place for discussion than most of the internet, but it seems there has been more piling on, making assumptions that aren’t there, projection, and thinking of “this was my experience, so it’s the only experience.” The projection especially.

        But I think overall it’s still a very positive place on the internet with wonderful discussions. But nothing is ever perfect.

        1. zora*

          I think the bad moments stand out more to us because the standard here is so different than the rest of the internet. So it feels more frequent to some of us than it actually is. I agree nothing is perfect, and I try to just shrug off the negative threads and concentrate on the positive ones.

          1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            Yes – so much this! Logically and overall – this is such a lovely comments section, and definitely stands above most other sections in terms of civility, understanding, general helfulness, etc. But because of this, I’m not expecting the types of behavior you typically see in comments sections, so when it does pop up occasionally it is really noticeable. It almost feels like a betrayal (not saying at all that it is! The feeling is due to my probably unrealistic expectations) – like I trusted you guys (the comments sections as a whole), and was let down.

            Again though, the whole betrayal/let down thing is on me. The issues pop up so rarely that I don’t think anything needs to/could be done to prevent them – just explaining why I think I, at least, might feel disproportionally upset by something that is realistically a minor and/or rare issue.

        2. Jaguar*

          I agree with everyone that this is a really thoughtful and intelligent community, but I agree with you that he speculating and filling in the blanks is a significant negative. Speculating is useful, but a lot of people seem to speculate and then, instead of treating their speculation like a hypothetical, begin talking like their speculation is the truth of the matter. In the most extreme cases, the community is discussing a scenario that barely resembles the contents of the letter. It’s really frustrating to get through, because before you can discuss the letter properly, you now have to get into a discussion of unraveling the speculation, which often comes with its own hostility (“Why are you trying to excuse this person’s behaviour?”).

          The pile-on, though, I don’t think anything can (or maybe even should) be done about. There is a definite slant or zeitgeist to this place and taking a position contrary to it is inevitably going to invite a lot of argument. I don’t think there’s a way around that and, at the root of it, it indicates a positive: it would be nice if people would avoid repeating something someone else has already said, but the fact that it happens so often means that people aren’t afraid to speak up when they have different ideas. Ask a Manager often gets compared to Captain Awkward, but there doesn’t seem to be any dissenting voices there. Speaking up when you know people are going to after you requires a certain level of bravery and people here seem willing to do it. The pile-on is a symptom of that bravery. It doesn’t have to be – there could be a culture of avoiding pile-ons – but it’s not outright a negative, I think.

            1. Natalie*

              It’s the speculation on someone’s speculation on someone’s speculation that seems extra frustrating to me.

              1. Jesca*

                Haha and then the attacks when you call out! Why do people get so emotionally attached to their speculations?

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  I think it’s more that people forget what are actual facts and what is speculation.

                2. Oranges*

                  I’m gonna guess that it’s because they are extrapolating those from their own life/view points?

                  Like when I went a bit… postal once, I look back and see it was because my own past was clouding my judgement. In the moment though? No way could I see that I was extrapolating from my own trauma and truly thought anyone who disagreed with me was telling me my trauma didn’t happen.

                  I don’t know what could have gotten through to me at the time though.

                3. Natalie*

                  Probably most people genuinely either forget the topic drift has occurred or don’t notice it happening in the first place. I’ve certainly had that moment before of “wait, how the hell did we end up talking about this again?” Meanwhile if the speculation has moved into something that trips your emotions, the whole thing is very fraught and emotional now.

                4. Jaguar*

                  Well, ironically, I don’t think you should assume people do it because they’re action emotionally :)

                  It might explain some of the instances, but I can’t believe it explains all of them, and if you assume people fill in the blanks based on an emotional reaction (particularly due to their own past negative experiences), it’s pretty insulting to the people who are doing it clear-headed. Certainly let the knowledge that some people bring the baggage into a situation inform how you interact with them, but I would try hard to avoid making the assumption that it’s what’s happening.

                5. Oranges*

                  @Jaguar I think for the most… strident ones there’s definitely the emotional piece but I think Natilie has hit the nail on the head more than I did.

                6. Specialk9*

                  It seems like speculation is a necessary element of advice. Others ask for advice, and the only thing we can give is based on our experiences – trying to disentangle that seems like trying to peel an onion for the seeds.

                7. Natalie*

                  @ Special9k, sure, but there’s a difference between speculating to give advice – openly, not bringing up a bunch of other issues that aren’t relevant, etc – and digging in to argue about different speculative scenarios.

                8. Jesca*

                  Jaguar, speculation is pretty easy to spot. Its not really all that well … Speculative. Its either the OP mentioned that detail or they did not. If they didn’t, then it’s speculation. Then growing aggitated in order to maintain that that speculation is actual fact is actually having an emotional reaction.

                9. Jaguar*

                  Speculation is totally helpful. But often people don’t acknowledge, or admit, or maybe even realize that what they (or someone else) has speculated is speculation. They say affirmatively, this is the fact of the matter, and will argue with people for suggesting any other scenario. “You’re wrong” or “that’s not helpful” and so forth.

                  It’s the difference between saying “you might be in an abusive relationship” and “you are in an abusive relationship.” The former is a suggestion of concern and healthy speculation. The latter is forming a conclusion with a lack of evidence. They’re similar statements to the ear but vastly different in consequence.

                10. Jaguar*

                  @Jesca

                  I regularly turn my key the wrong way when coming home, even though I’ve done it thousands of times and only one way makes sense. It’s easy to unlock the door and I screw it up because I’m not paying attention. I agree it’s easy to spot speculation, but that doesn’t mean people always spot it. It’s entirely plausible to me that people can speculate, assume their speculation is correct, and then rigidly defend that position without having what we might describe as an “emotional response,” all without even realizing that they’re baselessly speculating.

                11. Specialk9*

                  Ah, I get what you’re saying. Speculation presented as fact is objectionable. Speculation that is acknowledged as just a possibility is ok.

            2. Lissa*

              I think the main problem I have with the speculation is that it’s rarely a problem when one person says “Well, maybe this person was dealing with a Llama Wrangler” or “Maybe this person is in love with their boss” or what have you. It’s when other people read that, absorb it, and then either forget it wasn’t in the original letter, or see it so much they assume it must be true, so then it’s like this whole game of telephone.

              Or as mentioned below people assume an LW’s situation is just like theirs, and overidentify with someone in the letter, either the LW or someone they’re dealing with, and answer as though it’s THEIR situation. I think this one gets worse when the person they identify with is NOT the LW, because I’ve seen some seriously mean stuff said to LWs when the general tone of the comment thread sympathizes/identifies more with someone else in the letter.

          3. Emi.*

            I think you’re spot-on about the speculation but I disagree about the pile-ons. Plenty of people have said they are afraid to speak up when they have different ideas, or afraid to do so under their usual names. The pile-on isn’t a symptom of bravery; it’s a response, and one that has a particular effect: discouraging others who might also want to step out of line. Sure, it’s not as bad as a comments section where dissent is 100% quashed, but it’s still a negative.

            1. Jaguar*

              Yeah. You might be right, but I wonder how much of a balance there is. There’s always going to be a community’s shared values / zeitgeist / point of view / ideology / whatever you want to call it and it’s always going to hard to speak up against that and doing so is almost always going to result in what can seem like the totality of the community disagreeing with you. How do you ease that apprehension about disagreeing with a community? I think the fact that it does happen a lot at least speaks positively that numerous people are willing to do it, even if some aren’t. Not everyone is going to want to challenge a whole community, regardless of how accepting they are. At some point, I think you just have to accept that some people are unwilling to do it, being out of fear or some other reason (irritation, lack of respect, etc.)

              1. Mallows*

                I recognize you as being one who does at least sometimes go against the tide here. You deserve some credit IMO for a) accepting that there IS a tide here and not freaking out about it and railing against it, which i think is kinda useless and b) speaking up when you wish and being level headed enough about it to actually engage thought.

                I’m probably not saying it very well but I just think it’s cool that someone whose opinion does dissent is ok with hanging around AND inviting debate! You never learn anything in an echo chamber.

            2. Bekx*

              Yes, I’ve created posts in the open thread under a different name because I had a feeling commenters would speculate on something that wasn’t true/there.

              In my case, I was asking a question about my boyfriend and his female coworker and people immediately jumped to him being sexist, which wasn’t the case AT ALL….but I had a hunch it would probably come up because man vs women. Still, I didn’t want it associated with my normal username just in case. Turns out I was right, and that’s what a few people started speculating.

          4. Forever Anon*

            We saw a lot of that speculation-as-fact business in the suspected Nazi letter, some of it from the moderator herself. Not this site’s finest hour.

            1. fposte*

              I didn’t read it that way myself, though; this may be an example of the inability of any one approach to please everybody.

      7. Liane*

        I’ve been on here for several years (and often re-read older posts). To me it doesn’t seem so much that the tone has shifted–because there have always been comments sections that seem to “pile on” an LW–but that there are more posts that bring out the “suck it up & don’t blame person who did/said Awful Thing because Reasons” comments.

        As someone wrote a little earlier, this happens a lot when mental illness is involved.

        ***
        Wannabe, thanks for reminding us of all the good things about this site.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          One of the things I’ve truly tried to implement in recent years is telling people that I appreciate them.

          And I am glad to see so many people feeling the same way (I can’t respond to everyone because then it becomes a Wannabe-Disney-Princess-Palooza). We are a pretty great community!

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Same. Given the increase in temperature in the exchanges/comments, saying kind things to folks who seem to be struggling or taking an unpopular position can be so helpful.

            Especially because it feels like (although maybe I’m wrong and this is just my ~feelings~) that part of the increased fractiousness is because of an increase in personal attacks.

            1. Specialk9*

              That’s been one thing I’ve been trying to do, after really get mad on one thread – stop debating so much, and instead do more affirmations or follow up questions to people who tell about something especially hard. I figure a lot of us don’t talk about those hard things IRL, just here.

              Someone else posted, though, that nobody should post more than 3 comments on an article, so I’ve been second guessing that. (Shrug)

        2. oranges & lemons*

          On the other hand, I have often observed a deficit of empathy when it comes to mental illness. I’m sure this is informed by my own perceptions as well, and I appreciate that it can be hard to see things from the point of view of someone whose experiences/perceptions are very different. I think it comes from the same tendency to speculate based on one’s own experience.

          My real underlying issue is the tendency in many letters to want to assign blame/call out perceived bad actors, particularly when the facts of the letter don’t support it, and when it’s not particularly relevant to the letter writer’s question anyway.

          1. Specialk9*

            That’s interesting, because I feel like the AAM commentariat teaches me about mental health, and points out bias and stigmatization against mental illness, more than any other group I follow. It wasn’t really on my radar before, and it is because people here are open about their struggles and call out what they see. I really appreciate that, because I need to hear this and learn.

      9. NaoNao*

        I comment infrequently and have asked a handful of rather bland questions here and on last week’s Open Thread on the weekend, I asked (what I thought!) was kind of a fluff question and hoo boy. I was very stung by some of the harsh and salty responses (all caps yelling, a lot of outrage, and snarky, salty analogies to prove points were used…more than once) and I was a bit tearful and confused by it.
        I was honestly just trying to participate in the group and it did overshadow my enjoyment of this *otherwise amazing* group for a few days.
        Aside from me, me, me :) …I’ve noticed a certain…tendency to pile on, or get very heated very quickly, which is a bummer, because the kindness and civility and gentleness and general “assume good intentions” of this group has been a beacon in an otherwise Wild West Internet.

    2. Nita*

      You’ve said it! I’m new here too, and this is such an interesting and thoughtful community! All the more impressive considering we’re all anonymous internet strangers.

    3. Jesca*

      “I’d also like to thank Allison for cultivating an intelligent, kind, and thoughtful community.”
      Honestly, I was just thinking about this just this morning! I was thinking that there are not many other places where kind and open discussion is actually favored over overt bullying and accusation flinging. It is so refreshing.

      I am one who takes a long time to form concrete opinions/stances/moral dilemmas on anything complicated and this is usually after extensive self research of all opinions on a matter. I will say that though that after reading question, answers, and comments on here, my stances have changed and/or solidified on many broader social and moral points. And I have also learned a great deal about how I should view myself in the work place.

      But all this is really because Alison has been fantastic at creating an environment where discussion and debate can occur without (for the most part) mud slinging. That is not easy to do at all! But, I think some times people ebb and flow on things depending on what is currently going on in the world or in their lives in general. I am NOT always empathetic myself. So, I just kind of call it out when I see someone else being less than understanding, state my views in the event OP is reading it, and then let that person have a pass.

      1. Oranges*

        Agree.

        I’m actually pretty emotional and sometimes that overwhelms my good sense but I’ve never said “comments, hells nah” on a regular basis which is what I do in other corners of the net.

          2. Detective Amy Santiago*

            I made that mistake on WashPo not too long ago.

            “oh, the comments section here should be safe…” WRONG.

            Sometimes, when I’m in a bad mood though, I’ll troll my local news station’s FB comments to let off steam.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Ack – sorry Alison. I’m assuming the ‘t’ word tripped the moderation filters. I try to avoid using words that I know are going to make more work for you.

      2. Specialk9*

        “after reading question, answers, and comments on here, my stances have changed and/or solidified on many broader social and moral points.”

        I’ve been going through a similar process this past couple years, thanks to people posting on Facebook, and realizing how little I know about the things other people struggle with, and *wanting to understand*. People complain about Facebook and internet comments, but I’m so thankful for people who post good education that I would never find on my own.

        Things I’ve learned recently from commenters on AAM?
        -Ask permission regularly when tickling my kiddo
        -Ally is not a self designation, and allies need to stop making it about them/us
        -Really working on not using ‘crazy’ or other mental illness slurs in normal speech. (So hard!! I had no idea how frequent that is)
        -Routinely using ‘they’ as default non-gendered singular pronoun

        So thanks all.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Same here! I occasionally will still have an automatic “bristling” type of reaction to certain things, but I have learned that there are times when I need to sit back and listen/learn and I try to really keep myself open to those opportunities (both here and elsewhere on the internet).

    4. Snark*

      It HAS been rough lately, WDP, and thanks so much for doing your best – here and throughout your comments – to serve as a countervailing force and example.

      This week was weird. Left me feeling pretty weird. A few times I legit put my foot in it, but others, it was like I couldn’t get through even a reasonably uncontroversial post without reaping the controversy.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Thank you. I usually try (sometimes fail) to be compassionate. I also try not to get involved with arguments unless it’s something I feel passionately about. And even then I know what my limit is. If I’m approaching it, I just walk away – sometimes literally. I can’t control how someone will respond to be, but I definitely can control how I respond to someone.

        1. Snark*

          My problem is that if it gets heated and confrontational, I snap into bulldog mode and get obnoxiously stubborn. I REALLY need to work on that.

          2. Jesca*

            You know how I look at it, Snark? I look at it like everyone has a separate personality, and just like at work, I have to learn to accept and deal with it. It is clear you do not do things to be cruel or hurtful, because show up even more being kind compassionate than the bull dog (my professional nickname for many years, BTW just so you know I can relate haha). I think some people on here (even some major comment contributors) are very hard-hearted, blindly prejudice, and lack an appropriate level of empathy, but I do not include you in that group.

            I have had to tone down my aggressiveness over the years, but mine still comes out as well from time to time. I lose my patience!

          3. Oranges*

            I actually haven’t gotten that from you mainly because you have the ability to say “I might be wrong” which is the main thing that gets my back up. So if you feel strongly about something I know that you’ve thought about it and it’s not (usually) knee-jerk.

            1. Snark*

              Thanks for that, it’s nice to hear. I think my issue is not that I’m knee-jerk, it’s that when that little voice goes “Heeeeey, maybe you’ve made your point as well as you can and just need to step back” another little voice is all “NOOO WE SHALL BURY THEIR ARGUMENTS” and yeah.

              2. Natalie*

                For what it’s worth, I’ve certainly struggled with the compulsion to keep arguing with someone. (Thanks, super argumentative family of origin!) So one thing I have done when I re-open the comments is collapse all, and then *deliberately* do not uncollapse the parent comment of wherever that argument was. If I don’t see it, I can resist my SWOTI syndrome more easily. Now, that does rely on being able to remember where the argument was.

                1. As Close As Breakfast*

                  The collapse feature that Alison added has been awesome! When I feel something getting to me or the conversation has veered somewhere I just could not care less about, I quickly scroll up and collapse the whole section. It actually helps save my sanity at times I think. And I’m mostly a long time lurker! I don’t comment all that frequently (although I’m trying to do it more) but I come up with some damn fine arguments in my head!

                2. Hildegard Vonbingen*

                  As Close As Breakfast, I do the same thing. When I see a long string of posts arguing, I just collapse it. I come here for good advice and commenter wisdom, of which there’s plenty. Not fighting.

                  I was raised Catholic, although no longer a believer. There was a concept they had, called “custody of the eyes.” It’s a concept I put into practice regularly. Thank you, collapse function, for helping me out with that. If I don’t see it, it won’t rile me up.

                  I appreciate this comment board for its civility. The only other comment board, IMO, that’s in the same ballpark is The New York Times, and EVERY comment there is moderated before it’s posted. They have the paid staff to be able to do that. This site is free. Given that, I’m grateful it’s as good as it is.

              3. Jules the Third*

                SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNETS!!!

                I might have lost some sleep dealing with that myself.

            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I agree. I’ve only seen Snark retrench in a stubborn way (as opposed to a thought out way) a few times. Much more frequently, he’s willing to concede if he’s wrong and is willing to think through the disagreement, even if he still ultimately disagrees with the other person.

              And I agree with Jesca that knowing Snark’s overall commenting personality makes it much easier to be compassionate or extend the benefit of the doubt when something hits the wrong way.

              1. KAG*

                Warning: gendered question to follow: I’ve always thought Snark was a woman? Maybe just due to AAM norms.

      2. Jesca*

        I haven’t even been commenting. I feel there are times where discussion is warranted on controversial/complicated topics, and then there are times where I am like, yeah, ya know this question doesn’t really deserve this response and I leave it.

        With that said, there are actually some view points that do need to be shut down, and I think Alison does a really great job with that and explaining why. This is particularly the case when you have people piling on an OP who asked a really basic question or make statements that set back social equality 70 years, and I would like to think that the people doing this don’t actually mean harm, but instead are genuinely confused as to why people are against it.

        1. someone101*

          Totally agree! Long time reader and comments section lurker, there are some letters I would love to express an opinion on but don’t because I think to myself ‘ am I ready for potential backlash today?’ Even though I consider myself a fair and open minded person. I find as well as someone not native to the USA there can be a massive cultural difference in opinions which people don’t keep in mind. Saying that, I love this community and it’s still one of the most intellectual and thought provoking ones out there.

    5. Justin*

      Want to co-sign your thoughts, WDP. I also clicked through to your own site and wanted to offer props for your own honesty. Good luck to you.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Thanks! It’s kinda funny. In person I’m open about everything. You wanna talk psoriasis, migraines, depression, anxiety, grief, finding the perfect foundation, etc? I AM GAME. But when it comes to writing about it? I tend to freeze up and stare at the blinking cursor. But I’m working on it.

    6. Specialk9*

      Yeah. I have been bummed by several comment sections lately, too, and felt bad for the people who wrote in for help but got anti-help. But you’re absolutely right that this commentariat is light years better than others, and I am so grateful for this site and for all of you guys.

      1. Oranges*

        I felt really bad about the team lead one.

        The OP was clearly (to me) someone who drew inside the lines at all times and the commentary got a bit angry/frustrated about that also. Added to that people’s emotions were running high because of the sheer horribleness of what one of their underlings did and… yeah the OP responded that they felt attacked and opted out of the comments on their own post.

        1. JennyAnn*

          That one was *rough*. I slip in to read the comments more times a day than I should, but I had back off that one.

          2. Natalie*

            I believe that was the stoma bag photo post. The letter writer left a comment that they felt really attacked by some of the more intense comments.

      2. CG*

        I definitely grumped about this issue on the desks thread yesterday. Specialk9, your “anti-help” reminds me of why this was bumming me out so much. Alison’s insights are brilliant, but the comments provide a ton of useful insight and experience as well, and I love AAM in part because I learn so much from the comments. I feel like the comments section of AAM is part 2 to Alison’s part 1 of advice here, whereas on most other sites, the comments are just reaction and discussion.

    7. Ainomiaka*

      I agree. Yesterday’s skirt post was bad, and I just had to leave this morning’s post with the level of outright cruelty about the miscarriage. It’s started to seriously dampen my love of coming here-though I still obviously do and comment.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        It’s so interesting how different folks read the same set of comments.

        On this thread, we have folks saying that they found the comments on the miscarriage post disturbing because of a lack of empathy for the woman who had a miscarriage… and other commenters found it frustrating because of a lack of empathy for the LW who had been harmed by the woman who had a miscarriage. I’ve also seen comments expressing dismay that the bird-phobic guy got any support from commenters, and comments outraged that the bird-phobic guy was being flagellated for something that was beyond his control.

        I’m taking that as a reminder that we all experience the world differently, and should keep that in mind as we talk with each other.

        3. Dankar*

          The bird-guy post really threw me off, too. That was as close to vitriolic as I’ve seen on this site (from both sides), and I was brought to AAM in the initial intern-dress-code-petition wave!

          I’ve only been taken aback once since I started commenting, which was when someone suggested that I pursue therapy for my own phobia. (It might even have been the bird-guy post.) I’m sure they meant well, but there’s something about being told by an internet stranger that I should be seeing a therapist, that was a bit…off-putting, to say the least.

      2. Caro in the UK*

        I agree about this morning’s post about the miscarriage. I’m always wary to read the comments on posts in which mental illness or mental suffering is a key element of the original question, because although this commentariat is normally one of the most thoughtful ones on the internet, the lack of compassion can be staggering.

      3. Ramona Flowers*

        I went back to the miscarriage post and found some very confusing stuff about kick pleats.

        1. Oranges*

          I didn’t even know about those! I’m gonna have to go home and see if I have any that are sewn shut.

    8. Scott*

      As a long time reader, pretty close to AAM’s inception, I’ve definitely seen the tone of the comments change for the worse. Yes, not everything is as black and white as we once thought it was, but if you dare to disagree on a hot topic (the miscarriage situation from this morning?) you get talked down to by many of the usuals. It’s definitely made commenting a lot less fun and rewarding for me. The commentators have also become a predominantly female community, and I find gendered debates get turned into a discussion about gender inequality far more than necessary, and there’s a lot of pile on with those. But I still enjoy the letters and discussions in the comments.

      1. Oranges*

        I actually am pleased by gendered debates getting at the root of the BS which is sexism. Women are also fed the fuck up (yes, still) because we just got a nasty wake-up a year ago that we’re still “not humans” in some people’s eyes.

        Yes, I feel the same thing you do when I read a predominantly black commentariat, but then I tell myself that my skin = privilege and the least I can do is try to listen to their rage with an open mind. If I can’t that day for any reason walking away from the comment section is a good choice.

        1. Natalie*

          This isn’t really related to the topic at hand, but I follow some blogs and podcasts by black people and made for a black audience intentionally (on lurk mode), for exactly this reason. I live in a really segregated city so I find it good to routinely be in a situation where I’m not the target audience, not being catered to, don’t get the joke as much, and so on.

          1. SpiderLadyCEO*

            Natalie, I think this is a really excellent Idea and would love some recs! My od city was much more diverse then my new one, and I would love to hear people’s points of views that differ from my own.

            1. Natalie*

              A couple that I peruse regularly are The Root (blog), Very Smart Brothas (blog), Ijeoma Oluo’s and Franchesca Ramsey’s facebook (I don’t do any other social media but they both have Twitter of course), Two Dope Queens (podcast), Still Processing (podcast), and Code Switch (podcast). The last one is an NPR show so I’m sure it was created with a multiracial audience in mind, but at least to my ears they do less to tailor things to their white listenership. Obvious disclaimer that as a white lady I’m really not in a position to know how these comes across to black people.

              2. Really Rosie*

                Kinfold Kollective has been one that has helped me see through a new lens. I don’t always love what is said and I would never comment, it is a Black space for sure, but it’s been worth it to get the perspective.

                Also, Pod Save the People.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I do the same thing! When the internet is so segmented by taste that we end up getting suggested articles and news and media all by people with our same backgrounds and contexts, one needs to take the initiative to actually leap into a different bubble. Fortunately the segmentation means that all these other bubbles actually exist and are free to read.

      2. Natalie*

        Huh, I’ve been reading and commenting for years (I think like 7 years now, how is that possible) and my impression is that it’s always been a predominantly female community, in the comments at least.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Perhaps you could learn some things from the gender inequality conversations. I’m presuming from your username that you are male. It could be worth considering why you find those conversations troubling.

        1. Emi.*

          Yes, but it could also be that it’s tiresome when people speculate that a particular letter is about sexism and then it turns out they were wrong about the sex of everyone involved.

          1. Jesca*

            Yes, this becomes problematic when people speculate. More often than not, it is really just because people don;t realize how much they do that is sexist/demeaning or how much they compensate for its very existence.

          2. Scott*

            It’s definitely tiresome that we’re not given any benefit of the doubt. We could both definitely learn about the different challenges that both genders face that are specific to that gender. Discrimination goes both ways these days. I’m not saying it’s better or worse for either gender, but the second a male disagrees with an assessment that something is sexist, we get hit with sarcastic comments about how male privilege. Yes, it exists. Like it shuts down conversation, and so it’s become less interesting to comment in recent years.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Oh man. This is a digression, but it’s the second time in the last couple of days that I’ve seen comments from men about how frustrating it is to not be given the benefit of the doubt to be dismissed because of their gender.

              I can’t speak to whether that’s happening (because I’m not involved in every conversation, obviously), but it’s hit me so hard both times I’ve seen that complaint… because that’s what women experience all the time. Like, ALL the time.

              I don’t wish it on men — the solution to ending this problem for women is not inflicting it on men — but I do wish that experiencing it would cause men to reflect on how the same treatment has affected women, and whether they’ve been complicit, and what they can contribute toward ending it… rather than just complaining that it’s happening to them.

              Scott, I hope you don’t experience this comment as an attempt to silence you or dismiss what you’re saying. I’m trying to launch from your comment, not smother it. I hope I struck the right balance.

              1. Future Analyst*

                Yes. I wish that the response to feeling unheard is to think about how we make others feel unheard. It’s possible to advocate for yourself WHILE considering the possibility that you’re inflicting the same lack of listening on someone else . [I’m working on this one myself.]

              2. oranges & lemons*

                It’s really tough. I do find social justice-oriented spaces can get a bit vitriolic and unproductively snipey but I don’t know the answer. I know (firsthand) that it can be hard to adjust to being called out as a member of a group that normally is used to being taken seriously as default. However, I am really against the idea that oppressed groups should have to go out of their way to make the dominant group more comfortable, particularly in social justice-friendly spaces. But in practice, it does make it harder to have a productive conversation. I think a lot comes down to everyone trying to maintain a civil tone and give each other the benefit of the doubt as much as they reasonably can (which of course is very difficult to do in the context of such personal and fraught subjects).

            2. Oranges*

              Discrimination going both ways is both true and BS at the same time. It goes both ways but holy crap does a lot of it land on women and less on men.

              Rambling Story Time Again!
              A white male, white female, black male, black female, Hispanic male, Hispanic female etc. have all lined up for a slice of cake. They are lined up in the order of most privileged to least privileged. The white male is first and gets a rather large slice of the cake.

              Now, for those who are good at spacial intelligence it is obvious that everyone’s slice of cake cannot physically be the same as that first slice. But that can be hard for the first person to see. The first person goes into their room to eat their cake. The next person goes up to get their slice (I’m gonna go with white female). She sees that it’s smaller than the male’s piece that’s not okay. And then she looks at the line of people behind her and thinks, I wonder if they’re gonna get an even smaller piece. Etc etc.

              When they’re all talking after they’ve eaten their cake the white male dismisses that their piece was smaller (or says all pieces were the same regardless of the fact that there’s photographs, or says yes it happens sometimes but not all the time). It’s easier for the white female to believe that the people behind her got smaller pieces because she did herself.

              The next time they line up for cake the cutter tries to make the pieces more even (failing somewhat but it’s at least better). The white male only sees that his piece got smaller and is pissed off about it because to him he’s getting less than the others did (remember he thinks all the cake pieces were the same size). He’s being a prat.

              Please believe us when we say sexism is systematic and that females get the short end of it. Yes, sometimes the cake piece we get is smaller by sheer mistake, but often it’s because of our gender. Sorry if that story got a bit muddied.

              2. Foxtrot*

                *This is what I’ve seen as a white, middle class female from a large town/small city in the Midwest. My dad has a bachelor’s and my mom was a stay at home mom. We lived in a decent sized town, but it didn’t take long to drive into the heart of farm country. The rest of the state was mostly farm country.*

                I see where you’re going with this and I agree that happens. There are also times when people don’t actually care about the smaller cake slice but complain to be a jerk.

                There are also times when every other person in line gets ice cream with their cake on the second go around and the white guy gets told to deal with it. My college had excellent mentoring and tutoring programs for female, black, and Hispanic students. There were always those middle class white guys from the town who had to “make a point” that theeeeyyy would never get a similar program. I couldn’t tell if those guys actually, truly believed it or not, or if they just had to be a jerk. I will agree with you that all else being equal, I will have an easier time than a black or Hispanic female. I’m not going to dispute that. Things got muddied, though, when it came to the white rural kids who were more often than not first generation college students and from less wealthy families. These guys were told by the administrators that they already had a major advantage because they were white males, but if you look at the data, I’m not sure that’s true. First generation students have a really hard time in school because they don’t have family members to fall back on for guidance. Students from blue collar backgrounds don’t have the white collar life already ingrained in them. These students know to look for internships, or even that you should be looking, how to talk correctly, and so on. If you were to ask me honestly if I needed those programs more than one of the farm kids…probably not. The mentoring and career guidance were really helpful in tailoring my resume. I may have needed to overcome barriers because of my feminine name that the male students didn’t. But I also knew I needed a resume, which not everyone did. I guess where I’m going with this is that I saw classmates who I thought my middle class privilege beat out their male privilege even though the school administrators kept telling us otherwise.

                I’m not trying to dismiss what you’re saying! Please don’t take it that way. I’ve experienced my fair share of sexist remarks as well, so I know it’s out there.

                1. another Liz*

                  This struck a nerve with me. I have a real problem sometimes with affirmation action and racial polling. I am technically biracial, my grandfather was native American. Inloved him dearly. However, I look very much like my pale Irish mother. I have never been on a reservation, never been discriminated against, never been called a slur. When I was a kid, filling out my Scantron information on elementary school tests, I would agonize over what bubble do I fill in? After all I look white. But I felt like I was slighting my grandfather, leaving the American Indian (yes I am that old) blank. Fill in both bubbles? Was that allowed? Am I “other”? It was a huge relief, at the end of middle school, to realize I could leave that part blank. I have enough “blood” for lack of a better term to qualify for native American programs and scholarships, but it would just feel morally wrong to me to take part in that, I am not the intended audience. And if I did, I feel like I would be taking money that might mean taking someone else’s only chance at college away.
                  I also speak Spanish (started taking it to get out of winter recess), and since college registration is in August, I was really tan. The woman in registration took my Spanish fluency + my tan, came up with 3, and filled in my intentionally left blank section for me. Which I found out when I got my student ID. I had a hell of a time getting that changed and was really pressured into claiming native status to improve their metrics. So I really don’t care for affirmative action on one hand, but on the other hand I know something needs to be done about the inherent inequities of the system. I don’t have a better answer.

              3. Scott*

                Well, what really got my frustrated fed up with commenting was the gumption post, where someone really really wanted a specific job, for which they had no training, so they got the training on their own, some basic experience as a volunteer, then someone went on maternity leave in that position so he pushed to get that position. Obviously he went about it the wrong way, there were a whole slew of problems with the way he went about trying to get the job, but whenever I explained it like that, I was told that this was toxic male behavior, and that he would no doubt be trying to steal the new mother’s job (even though there’s laws against this), and that yes, this was gendered, and no, no none of this would have happened if he was a woman.

      4. Jesca*

        I think what you are seeing is a general shift in society where people just aren’t going to be so quiet anymore. Hell, I know I used to remain quiet on certain gendered subjects even though I am particularly educated on the topic and many other cultural subjects as well. Why? Because making a comment in the reverse was considered “not appropriate”. I think a lot of things have changed quickly in our society, and some people still are experiencing culture shock from it. I also think it is inherently hard to empathize unless you have been degraded in one way or another before. I mean honestly equality in regards to women really has for years taken the back seat to every thing else on most occasions. There are, like with racism, many mechanisms in place within our society that are sexist – that are meant to put women at significant disadvantages. It is actually quantitative! It is not even speculative.

        But I would honestly not expect that to go away. Women feel empowered right now to educate. I don’t blame you for feeling uncomfortable. I get uncomfortable when other races blame other races for everything that is wrong. But it is something I have to accept because there are a lot of mechanisms in place to benefit one race over another. I also recognize that not all of one race benefits from that race’s entitlement, too, though so I can get uncomfortable with blanket statements. Prejudice exists in many forms. But you would be remiss to think that while people are treated so quantitatively different from another group that people pointing it out is going to go away.

        1. Scott*

          It’s not a matter of feeling uncomfortable. It takes a lot to make me feel uncomfortable. I have a thick skin. But too often here, no one is willing to hear the opinion from the other side of the world in terms of gender. It’s problematic that productive conversations are being shut down, and then others pile on.

          1. Plague of frogs*

            I agree. I’ve seen Snark called out twice this week in a gendered way that was completely unnecessary, and I was bothered by it. (For what it’s worth, I’m female).

            Also, I noticed that most, if not all, of the sexist comments during yesterday’s skirt debate were from women. I would be offended if men were making those remarks from a place of privilege, but I was just about equally offended that women were making them from a place of internalized misogyny.

            2. Specialk9*

              Yeah that female-on-female sexism was utterly shitty. And educational.

              Scott, as someone who is thoroughly in the ‘Fed the F Up with Male Bullshit’ female contingent, catalyzed by 2017, I don’t know what to tell you.

              Yes, most of us are dealing with the rage of a lifetime all at once. I’m sure it’s hard to be on the other side.

              But be aware you’re basically asking women to manage your male feelings about female feelings, and be ‘nice’ so your feelings aren’t hurt. Which are two of the gendered BS things we’re mad about having to do all the time already!

              Maybe we won’t be so mad in a year. I don’t know, maybe take some deep breaths and listen and try to hear us.

              I get defensive when people of color criticize white people. But I try to take deep breaths and listen. You could try doing the same for a bit. Yup it’s hard.

              1. Oranges*

                But be aware you’re basically asking women to manage your male feelings about female feelings, and be ‘nice’ so your feelings aren’t hurt. Which are two of the gendered BS things we’re mad about having to do all the time already!

                ALL OF THE THIS.

              2. Plague of frogs*

                “Rage of a lifetime”–totally agree. I don’t see myself getting over it by next year.

                “But be aware you’re basically asking women to manage your male feelings about female feelings, and be ‘nice’ so your feelings aren’t hurt.”

                I don’t think this is what Scott is asking for. He is asking that comments from men not be dismissed and shut down. This was what I saw happening to Snark this week–it wasn’t, “Here is something you may not have considered,” it was more like “Shut up, you’re just a stupid man!”

                I don’t love Scott’s comment above: “I’m not saying it’s better or worse for either gender…” The deck is seriously stacked against women still (case in point: I am sitting in an office where I am outnumbered by men twenty to one) and it is silly to pretend otherwise. But I took his central point to be that is that it’s not OK to shout someone down based on gender, and I’m totally on board with that.

                (My apologies, Scott, if I misstated your position).

                1. Oranges*

                  I didn’t see the dismissive comments but that’s because I usually only participate in the comment section when the letter catches my emotions/interest. But yes, shutting down comments just because male = not okay. Shutting down ones that are “won’t someone think of the men” or “this is stupid because it only impacts females” = okay.

                  Scott is heading towards being dismissed (by me) because of his “both sides” but I’m trying (maybe not succeeding) in giving him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn’t heard HOW MUCH effort goes into being a female and how much smaller the pay-offs are for our work.

              3. Detective Amy Santiago*

                It just goes to show how deeply ingrained sexism is in our society.

                This is an excellent comment though. And I completely relate to your statement about race. For a long time, I always wanted to chime in and say “I’m not one of THOSE white people” and then I realized that instead of saying so, I need to SHOW it by (a) not defending other white people when they behave badly, (b) calling out other white people when they behave badly, and (c) shutting up and listening when POC are talking about their experiences. My actions speak louder than my words.

              4. Scott*

                See, that right there is the type of gaslighting that got me frustrated with the comments on this site. I never asked anyone to manage my feelings, or to be nice. I’m an adult, and I can manage my own feelings. How about being respectful, and using intelligent arguments and counterpoints, rather than assuming I’m a misogynist sexist asshole because I’m male, and telling me to shut up.

          2. Jesca*

            See where the disconnect starts to happen falls back on the idea of what percentage of the population is “at struggle” and the need to focus on that first. Its hard to make an argument that men have something really hard when actual barriers exist preventing half the population from experiencing the same opportunities. I can understand why you feel that way. I really can. But what people are focusing on is tackling the broader issues that are causing large portiins of the population issue and then focusing on the marginally smaller issues surrounding gender inequality with men. Because no doubt men do suffer in some ways. But for now, I would recommend just listening as half the population finally feels now like they have a voice after sweeping marginalization for years.

            1. Specialk9*

              Yes, this.

              Scott and other male commenters, we value you in this group, and we would like your perspective. I’ll try to watch for pile-ons based on gender. Just… walk carefully, eh? The same way kind people watch parent-related talk around someone who just lost a parent. If you’re posting on gender stuff, double check your wording before hitting send, and listen to us.

              Basically every woman you know is going through the same stages of therapy at the same time.*

              There’s the initial Flaming Locusts stage, where you explore how that thing from years ago that you just lived with was never ok, and then really start digging – what happened, how did it harm you, what ways had it twisted your life and self, how true are those rules you internalized. It is necessary, but hurts, and then you spend several months to years in angry mode, because it really wasn’t ok.

              Then comes the Israeli mode. (Named by my US family after how… assertively I talked after living in Israel.) That’s where you learn about boundaries, and go overboard setting strict boundaries and defending them strongly. I’ve seen even the gentlest most diplomatic go into rawwr Israeli mode for awhile.

              Then comes the Tower of Strength mode. This is a quieter strength and confidence in owning one’s self and getting to set boundaries, without needing the razor wire, floodlights, and dogs.

              Just to say – it’s a cycle, and we’re all in Flaming Locusts stage.

              *From my observation – this may not be as universal as I think, but it’s the data points I have.

              1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

                Just to say, we’re not all in Flaming Locusts stage. I’m not. If you are, I honor that. But please, please do not assume all of us women are alike. We are not. Perhaps you were exaggerating to make a point and that wasn’t meant as a true statement. If that’s the case, my apologies.

                I just want to be treated and seen as an individual, and that’s not always been easy. I’m 5 foot 11.5 inches tall – not typical for a woman. I’m powerfully built and can lift as much as the average man my age. Not typical. I’ve never wanted to get married or have kids – atypical for my sex. If there’s one thing I’ve struggled with all of my life, from men AND from women, it’s the assumptions people make about me, my interests, my goals, my experiences, my capabilities – all based on my gender. It gets old. Stereotypes get my goat, I will admit. Because they seem to deny who I am.

                1. Specialk9*

                  That’s cool. My advice is based on a movement that is wide sweeping, but of course not universal. (Which was what I meant by “basically” – maybe “virtually” would have better conveyed that there are exceptions like you.)

                  Even so, would you be harmed by men stopping and thinking before posting on female-touching issues? Would you be harmed by them learning about the rest of our experiences?

      5. Undine*

        I didn’t read all the miscarriage comments from this morning, but as far as I got, I honestly don’t know which opinion you mean when you say “disagreeing on a hot topic”. I mean, I saw some “Someone who would lie to their boss is someone I’d never trust again!” comments and some “Grief and hormones can make you crazy” comments, and a lot of things in between. At least as far down as I got, I didn’t feel there was one clear winner.

        Sheer volume will affect how comments are perceived. If 5 people are active on a post and disagree with each other, it looks like a discussion. If 50 people are active on a post, with 10 for each possible opinion, but then if 10 people comment on a post they disagree with, that’s a pile-on. Add to that the fact that humans are much quicker to notice the negative (our negative) and it has much greater weight in our minds, and the comment section is inevitably going to feel super negative.

        That said, I often skip discussions about clothes. I don’t care about clothes. My whole career is built around not caring about clothes (which means I do care, but in a different way.) Those of you who care about clothes could tell I don’t care about clothes from a distance of 2 city blocks.

      6. Wow*

        I am in total agreement. I remember the prank gone wrong letter. So many people assumed the pranksters were older men being mean to a younger woman. There was also lots of speculation that the pranksters were white and straight and picking on someone who was not white. None of it was relevant to the situation but there was still speculation.

        Turns out that the pranksters were women. One was gay and one was not white. They were both a bit younger than the prankee. The prankee was white.

        So the speculation was all wrong and was no help to the letter writer.

    9. Thursday Next*

      Thank you, Wannabe Disney Princess, for starting an appreciation thread! Alison, I’m continually impressed by how thorough, compassionate, and nuanced your responses are. I really, truly don’t know how you do it–but I’m glad you do! And so many of the commenters here are wise and witty–I learn so much from this community.

      1. Thursday Next*

        Hit post too soon–even when things get, um, heated, I think the community on this site is much more civil and rational than other commentariats. Typically many comments I ultimately disagree with on this site still give me food for thought.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Totally agree. I still feel that there are many more things going right here than are going wrong. And every day I find something of value to me or something that I can apply to my life/work. I feel it is a privileged to read/participate in this forum. I never expected to find anything like this and yet here it is. Floating in the background of my thoughts is that there will come a day where Alison decides “Enough!”. And that will be a sad, sad day for all of us.
          Thank you, Alison, for all you do.
          Thank you, fellow commenters for enriching my life.

  6. Monsters of Men*

    Made a discovery that aside from the restaurant business, I have worked in every service and hospitality sector. From doctor’s offices, to gyms, to car dealerships, to bookstores, to hair salons, you name it, I’ve done it all. I feel like I have all this useless insider information and nothing to do with it!

    1. KatieKate*

      I would enjoy hearing stories about all of those! Maybe start a blog? Or just write something up for yourself to enjoy?

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          Yaaaaas! When I worked at a bank, co-workers and I were going to write a book (a bit before blogs were a “thing”) first post was going to be the guy that got mad at us in the drive thru that his check wouldn’t clear immediately and the proceeded to throw the tube out his window and drive over it….smh

      2. Secretary*

        Yes! Maybe similar to what Reader’s Digest does “10 things your waitress/receptionist/doctor/personal trainer will never tell you”.
        Or customer service survival skills. I google that a little more often than I like to admit…

        1. Merci Dee*

          Ooh, that would be a cool idea! A Top 10 Insider’s Tips that could post every week during the Friday open thread! And there are so many ways that could be mined for good information — Week 1: Here’s the things that will annoy your [insert job here]. Week 2: Things your [insert professional here] wish you knew about [industry]. There’s so much potential!

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Perhaps a book of insider tips and tricks regarding how to save money, deal with dissatisfying customer service issues, etc. Sort of like Heads in Beds, by Tomsky…..it’s a book about the hotel industry. Fun little mindless read that was partially about his life and times working in the business with tips throughout.

    3. Not the real Slim Shady*

      As a 10+ year veteran of working in Theme Parks and hotels, I hear you. I have thought about writing a book or teaming up with some former co-workers to write a book of (true!) stories. The 2 things that are stopping me are a fear that nobody would buy/read it, and issues stemming from the fact that I’m still employed by the same parent company (although no longer dealing with guests at all), and not wanting to jeopardize my employment.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Tell-All book! “Telling it All: Everything you suspected or feared was true about your restaurant, your doctor’s office, or your hotel”.

      I’d totally read that.

  7. Detective Amy Santiago*

    How are your companies preparing for Winter Storm Hunter?

    We are keeping an eye on the temperature so that we can close the office early if it starts to drop and potentially freeze so we can all get home safe.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We’re not supposed to get anything from Hunter (it is unseasonably warm here today, which sounds great but is actually quite… creepy), but I think in those situations, so much depends on where you live. I used to live in the Northeast US, where there was infrastructure to deal with snow and ice (salt, plows, etc.). I now live in the Southeast where we don’t have that. We have some kind of preparation, but winter weather is so rare that it’s not worth investing a whole lot into it. We also have people who have absolutely no clue how to drive in this stuff, so it just gets treacherous. It bugs me when my friends in more winter-ready locations make fun of us for being “wimps”, but every locale has its own issues. In a situation like yours, we’d be doing the same– keeping an eye out but kind of expecting to leave early. It helps that my boss is really into weather and that we are all able to work from home if we have to.

      Good luck!

      1. peachie*

        Wow, very same. From the Northeast but I now live in the mid-Atlantic region (so we should be spared this time). I swear, though, if we get a gigantic snowstorm on a weekend, I’m going to be so mad, as I now live in a city that basically shuts down if there’s more than 2″ of snow. I want my adult snow day!

      2. Hildegard Vonbingen*

        Same here. I live in the SF Bay Area. No winter prep needed. In fact, it’s been one of the warmer, drier winters I can remember. What terrifies me is climate change, and the long-term impacts I’m expecting as a result of that moving forward.

        California’s mostly always been pretty arid, and I believe that will get much worse in the years ahead. That really scares me. I’m preparing for that by removing as much grass as possible from my landscaping and looking into a gray-water recapture system for irrigating the remaining live landscaping, which includes five coastal redwood trees (they like water!).

        I’ve lived in upstate New York, so I know from rugged winters. But I’d rather deal with the regular seasonal changes, no matter how rough they are, than with the results of climate change. I think that’s gonna be much worse. And it won’t go away. Scares the socks off me.

    2. CheeryO*

      No formal preparations here, but my manager is great about letting us cut out early if the weather turns ugly. We have to charge the time, but we all have plenty of leave and can charge by the hour. I’m planning on going a couple hours early since it looks like we’re getting the transition to hard freezing rain/sleet right before rush hour.

    3. selina kyle*

      We got the worst of it yesterday – public schools and a couple businesses closed but we carried on. I work on a college campus, so we have pretty diligent snow plow/road salting teams on call, I suppose. It was a bit slippery in the morning still, but it’s cleared by now.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I’m in the midwest. Unless it’s gets REALLY bad, we just kinda don’t care? I mean, we’ll adjust clothing, maybe work from home cause we don’t want to deal with it, slow down, etc. We deal with the weather appropriately. But it’s not like the whole region shuts down.

      Actually, though I know that people in various regions aren’t equipped to handle snow and ice, my first impulse is to laugh. Like, seriously you’re freaking out over a dusting of snow?!? We got 6 inches and are grumbling about shoveling. Said reaction isn’t very kind of course so I don’t say it out loud. Because that area really doesn’t know how to cope with whatever they got.

      But if I’m dealing with something pretty extreme compared to your 30 degrees or whatever, I may at some point ask you to stop complaining. Because there’s a huge difference between 30 and -10. I have a cousin in Florida that I regularly tell her to be quiet because she’s whining about something pretty minor and people are literally dying from cold in my area. (the whole scope of her behavior however leans towards the “you’re annoying, out of line, and I don’t want to hear it” end of things though, and after 10+ FB posts about whatever it is, you need to stop.)

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        In turn, we laugh at yall in the summer when you’re complaining about 90 degree weather being so hot when people in the South are dealing with 100+ with people dying from the heat. We all have our weather extremes, just in different seasons.

      2. KayEss*

        I used to have the same reaction (born and raised Chicago-area… I think I had maybe two snow days total in my entire schooling), but then I lived in St. Louis for a bit and saw how the schools had to close over ~3 inches of snow late one year because the city had run out of money to plow side streets and the buses couldn’t drive safely to pick up and drop off the kids. It was really unfortunate.

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          That’s different though – it’s not that they don’t know how, it’s that other issues intervened and made it impossible for them to cope. Honestly, I’d be showing up at City Hall and asking what’s wrong with management that they can’t manage to pay for basic services. Because that’s a government problem.

      3. Solo*

        People die of cold in warmer climates, too. Portland, Oregon had an unseasonably cold winter last year (I think the low was around 15F). I think 5 people died in the first week and approximately 80 people died unsheltered in Portland in 2017. Something you need to understand about warmer-weather climates is that we have a lot more people living outdoors, and death from exposure is entirely possible even above freezing temperatures.

        (I grew up in the Upper Midwest and had a similar attitude until I went through a few winter storms in cities that _really_ are not equipped to handle it. Often the most dangerous driving conditions, even in places that are equipped to handle winter storms, are the conditions right *near* freezing, especially freezing rain storms. That’s pretty much *all* of the winter storms that warmer-climate locations get.)

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          You’re misreading my comment. In areas that really don’t know how to cope with something, I understand. If an area is having to deal with weather that they simply don’t get and thus are not able to cope, of course it’s going to be a problem. Each area has their particular extremes that they know how to cope with. But yes, when Georgia is shutting down because they got a dusting of snow, I’m going to laugh a bit and say they’re lucky they don’t live where I do because it’s a lot worse. But I recognize that Georgia doesn’t get snow, doesn’t have the equipment to deal with it, etc. And if anyone in Georgia reaches out to me and asked how to deal with it, I’ll be happy to talk to them.

          But when you’re dealing with dangerous extremes, it’s really not helpful to have someone else moaning incessantly about their much less extreme version, or making fun of you for doing what’s necessary to cope. My cousin is quite immature and shallow, and it shows sometimes. When it’s 30 in Florida, she’s complaining with no regard to how anyone else is coping. I get very tired of it. If she was asking for tips on how to dress for the cold, I’d call her up and help her out. But she’s not.

      4. CheeryO*

        Not sure if your laughter comment was specific to this storm or to the general trend of freaking out over every storm (which I agree is getting ridiculous), but I’m in a city that gets more snow than just about anywhere in the U.S., and we’re a little bit freaked about this one, just because we’re supposed to get heavy ice accumulations followed by a foot of snow.

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          Oh, generally, not specifically. I think it’s silly to name storms, and we’re getting to the point where the weather people are calling wolf way too much. Over and over they freak out and say “this is really bad” etc, but then nothing really bad happens. We get a couple of inches of snow, not the foot or more they were freaking out about. So when it is really bad, people don’t do anything different because they’ve been trained not to.

          Quite frankly, weather extremes are happening much more frequently than they used to. Everyone needs to figure out how to deal with it in their area, or move somewhere else. There is an element of self-inflicted damage here. As a society we need to enable people to move when they can’t handle the expected weather in their locations. We also need to start moving people out of the path of expected weather events. We’re failing miserably. Live somewhere that keeps flooding? We should not have permanent structures there, or structures need to be designed to handle frequent flooding without damage. Droughts followed by fire followed by rain? We know how that’s going to end, so we need plan for it. Up front, by not building in vulnerable areas or building differently. In the end, we can’t win against nature. Either adapt or move. We’re not really doing either as a society, and people keep getting hurt or dying, and massive economic losses are incurred over and over. A lot of this is preventable. But it takes acceptance of reality and money.

          Good luck with the ice/snow mix, hopefully the ice misses you.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Naming the storms came into use to help with conversation. The idea being that most people cannot remember the storm of 2006 vs the storm of 1995, but if the storms have names then recognition comes quicker. Around here, a person can point and say, “That is damage from Irene that has still not been cleaned up.” People may not remember the year but they remember the huge amount of damage. [Those were random dates I picked, for purpose of illustration. I don’t remember the storms for those years.]

    5. KMB213*

      I am leaving early today. I work in a very small office (three regular/full-time employees). The office is in the boss’s house, the other employee works about two miles away, and I’m about 30 miles away. So, the boss will stay in the office portion of the house and work a normal work day, the other employee will likely work a normal work day, and I’ll work from home for the afternoon.

      I’m in the Midwest, so we’re accustomed to bad weather, but the amount of ice is my boss’s major concern, moreso than the snow.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Ice is terrifying. And it’s been raining pretty much nonstop for the last 12 or so hours here, which means that when the temp drops below freezing, it’s gonna get real ugly real fast.

        2. Dorothy Zbornak*

          We had freezing rain/ice on Monday in Philly and it was a total nightmare. The heat in my building had gone out and the heating oil delivery truck couldn’t get to us because the roads were so dangerous. It was a cold night!

        3. Hildegard Vonbingen*

          Agree. Ice is awful. Because it deprives me of control. And when I’m operating heavy equipment – like my car – losing control can be catastrophic. I don’t have to reckon with that now, but I remember when I did. I dreaded it. I could feel my muscles stiffening up with the dread before I got in the car. Lord, how I do NOT miss that! How I wish I could cast a magic safety net over all who have to contend with it, bringing them all home safe, unharmed, warm, and dry.

    6. Natalie*

      I completely forgot we were naming winter storms now and started daydreaming about an even dumber of Twister.

        2. Gingerblue*

          I used to agree, but now I actually find it really helpful to have names. It’s so easy to read an article online, absentmindedly click on a link on the sidebar, and not realize that you’re now reading about a similar storm from a year earlier because the site’s algorithm thought the article looked similar. It seems like a useful concession to the nature of the internet.

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I live in the snow belt so to us it is just a normal day with a directive to wear boots and walk carefully

    8. Stormy*

      I AM FREAKING OUT.

      Tomorrow morning, in the absolute thick of the mess, I have to drive 40 miles to take a six-hour comprehensive final exam that is required for me to graduate next week.

      1. JanetM*

        Aiiee. I wish you good luck and safety with the travel (is there any way you could go tonight and stay somewhere nearby?), and success on your comps.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Eeeee be careful!

        I second Janet’s comment. Is there any way you can stay a bit closer and drive out this evening?

    9. Catherine from Canada*

      Ha. I read “Winter Storm Hunter” like “Tornado Chaser”, thinking that some mad person out there was trying to find the worst winter storm ever.

      1. Gingerblue*

        I’m now envisioning this as a particularly cheesy holiday special, complete with a dramatic backstory about how the main character is estranged from his family because of his obsession with storms. Wandering farther and farther north, he eventually becomes lost in a blizzard and stumbles upon Santa’s workshop, learns the true meaning of Christmas, and arrives home Christmas morning in a picturesque-but-not-substantial flurry of snow. For maximum schmaltz, he brings a glass snowflake ornament as a present for his small daughter.

        Why yes, I am extremely bored with my actual work.

        1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

          Sounds like the Hallmark channel version of Into the Wild, with nobody dead at the end. My mom would love it. That movie brought me close to tears, so maybe I would, too!

  8. Hannah*

    Really need advice on how to become more comfortable (and confident) in speaking up during meetings and discussion panels!

    I started a new job a few months back, and had a review with my manager not long ago. The main feedback was that, while I’m doing all the technical aspects of the job well, I’m not proactive enough during meetings, especially with external clients. It’s an issue because it makes me look unengaged and may not communicate our discussion points across clearly.

    The main issue is I have an issue with speaking up ‘out of turn’, if that makes sense, and since I’m the most junior person at these meetings I always feel awkward doing it (for fear of saying something stupid I guess). I’m fine with things like presentations because I /know/ it’s my ‘turn’ to speak, but to jump into discussions can be difficult for me. Being female in a male-dominated environment doesn’t help either.

    So yeah… these meetings are a regular part of my job and I can’t avoid them. (I really enjoy the technical aspects of my job, but unfortunately they can’t be done without the meeting/interactive parts as well). So if anyone’s been in a similar situation before and have overcome it, I’d love to know how you did it!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you do any sort of prep for these meetings? Maybe jot down some notes with potential ideas you could bring up prior to the meeting so you feel prepared. You could even run them by your manager the first time to make sure you’re on the right track. Just say “I want to make sure that I’m contributing appropriately, so I was going to mention XYZ when we talk about the new Teapot Regulations. Does that sound okay?”

    2. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      First, so normal to feel uncomfortable speaking up when you feel like you don’t have the authority to do so. But you do! Your manager is telling you that you SHOULD be speaking up. So if you needed permission, there’s your permission.

      Second, I really believe in “fake it til you make it.” So you don’t feel confident speaking up now, but maybe set a goal of speaking X number of times in a meeting. After awhile it won’t feel daunting or uncomfortable.

      Third, read up on Imposter Syndrome. I always think it’s helpful to remember that it is so, so common to feel this way for both men and women. Don’t let it paralyze you. You can do this!

    3. 42*

      If I or have something to add, and it’s a large group, I give my hand a little raise gesture (but not like you’re in 3rd grad and are waiting for the teacher to call on you). The leader of the meeting or others will see it and acknowledge that you have something to say, and that’s when you have a opening. I see others do that too, and it seems to work very well in my little universe.

      1. Future Analyst*

        This can be helpful, but be mindful of your environment: if the men around you just speak, rather than waiting to be acknowledged, it can put you at a disadvantage. Not only are you then waiting to be “called on,” you also seem like you’re asking permission to speak, which is not great if no-one else is.

        1. 42*

          then the gesture can also be used as “I’m about to speak.” It gets eyes on you.

          The worst thing is*starting* to speak and getting interrupted and talked over. This gesture is more of a turn signal on your car. :-)

          1. Merci Dee*

            I used to have that problem with a particular co-worker — he’s an older man, and would pretty frequently interrupt and try to talk over me. I would stop speaking, but quietly fume inside that he’d jumped in like I wasn’t even talking. So I decided one day that I was tired of it, and wouldn’t stop talking just because he decided to start. Not going to lie, I was kind of nervous about my new strategy. But the next time he tried to talk over me, I used that annoyance to keep on going with my train of thought. I was totally surprised when a couple of others in the discussion asked him to hold off on comments, because they wanted to hear what I was saying. I think he was a little surprised about that, too.

            1. Honeybee*

              Yeah, I’ve noticed that in my male-dominated workplace people (both men and women who have adapted) will just start talking over you. It took me a little while but I’ve learned that the response here is to raise my voice a little and keep talking. It’s kind of weird how frequently people just jump in and barrel over whoever is talking. When I’m moderating a meeting myself I try to recognize folks who are trying to get a word in edgewise and intercept the Dominators so someone else can talk!

    4. Kitten*

      I echo Amy’s advice above – note taking really helps me out in situations like this and means you can frame your point nice and clearly.

      Additionally, if it’s appropriate*, sometimes asking probing questions about client’s needs or processes will help you draw information out and opens discussions up a bit more. People like to answer questions about things they’re knowledgeable on, so it’s a good way of building up relationships, and you might draw out some key element that would otherwise have been missed.

      *Obviously, phrase questions respectfully and only ask them if the detail is appropriate to the level of the meeting. The Head of Teapot Delivery probably can’t tell you the specific shade of blue they want on the TARDIS teapots, but the Teapot Painters probably use specific formulations for specific reasons that might need to be considered.

    5. CheeryO*

      I don’t know if this is appropriate for your meetings, but I’m in a similar situation, and it helps me to have more structure (i.e., a prepared agenda and talking points). I have trouble knowing what and when to contribute when things get loosey-goosey, but if I know that this is THE time to talk about anything pertaining to a certain aspect of the project, then it’s easier for me to put stuff out there.

      1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

        I’m surprised that anyone holds a meeting without an agenda that everyone gets, preferably in advance of the meeting, so they know how to prepare and what to expect. Also, action items after a meeting, so we can wrap up and get going.

        I find that, when it comes to speaking up in meetings, listening is critical. I’ll speak up when I feel I have something useful to add, or when I need clarification. I’m less afraid of looking stupid than I am of missing/being unclear about critical information, or having a project go wrong because of incomplete information. I try to attend meeting as well informed as possible, so I don’t ask questions about things I should be clear on. Listening, for me, is key. What I’m hearing tells me when to speak up.

    6. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

      Are you leaving need to know information unsaid?

      I think to answer in a general sense, unless it’s a very formal meeting or you have been informed that you are not expected to talk, you can adjust your mindset as to your role. There are, generally speaking, no turns or order for speaking during meetings jump in when you have something to add or can answer a question. Part of your job is to contribute and add to meetings.

    7. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      @Hannah. You could start by “piggy backing” off of what one of the senior team members says. For example, Senior Team member: “well I think XYZ would be the way to go in order to enhance your productivity”. You, then could jump on that with: “Agreed. Senior Team member makes a good point. By doing XYZ, it would do ABC in terms of your productivity”. Well, you get the idea. Once you’ve done that a few times, I think you’ll get comfortable with jumping right into the discussions. That’s what I did and it worked for me. remember, at some point, YOU will be a Senior Team Member. :-)

    8. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      Similar to Detective Amy’s comment, I would suggest reviewing the agenda ahead of time if that is a possibility. I’m not great in meetings if I get caught off guard by something, but if I have time to think through a few things ahead of time, pull relevant documents/emails/etc. together I do well.

      I am also usually outranked by everyone at the table and a woman, so I understand that struggle. I make good use of the “does anyone have anything else” comment that is always made by the meeting lead. I’ve also been with my company for awhile, so I’ve had the opportunity to build a solid reputation and earn the respect of my colleagues. I’m sure this will happen for you too, just give it time.

    9. jack*

      I’m also a female in a male-dominated field that can be technical. I’m like you in that I don’t like to speak ‘out-of-turn’ and didn’t engage too much in the beginning. Honestly, what I did was that I told myself that I owed it to myself and any future women working at this facility to speak up and make myself visible. All these men who were used to meetings with just other men needed to be reminded that women exist.

    10. Happy Friday*

      If it’s available in your area, try attending Toastmasters. You can try out classes for free as a guest, and if you decide it’s something you want to pursue, the fee is very reasonable.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        I was just going to say this if no one else had. I haven’t been to Toastmasters myself, but it’s my new year’s resolution.

        1. Librarygal30*

          Do it! Toastamsters is great; I haven’t found a new club since I got a full-time job that interfered with my old club. You learn a lot of wonderful skills that can help in all areas of life.

    11. Goosepimple*

      It is a situation where there are moments in the discussion where you could easily break in, but you don’t know what to say? Or is it a situation where it’s almost impossible to get a word in because 1 or 2 people are dominating the conversation?

      If it’s the former–then preparation is the key. Think of some suggested comments prior to the meeting and write them down for a memory jog later. And take notes in the meeting so that you can develop more. It’s more difficult to deal with the second situation, and it might be worth having a conversation with the leader of the meeting (or the problem individuals) to ask that some space be left for your comments.

    12. Jadelyn*

      I’ve gotten pulled into a lot of meetings with very high-up executives, despite being the most junior on my team, because I’m the company’s wunderkind when it comes to spreadsheets and data manipulation, and because anything HR-related winds up crossing my desk at some point because I do a great deal of the work of translating high-level plans into operations-level actions. So while I may not be making the decisions in these meetings, I’m there to offer suggestions and feedback on the practical side of things and to answer data questions as needed.

      And at first I was super nervous – here I am, in my first professional job, a lowly HR Assistant, in a meeting with two SVPs, a VP, and the CEO. But I reframed it to myself as, “They brought me in here for a reason. They wanted me to be in this conversation because my input is relevant to this issue. If I just sit here and don’t speak up, I’m actually failing to fulfill the purpose they brought me in for.” It really helped me get past my nerves and be willing to speak up, even if it meant (gently, delicately!) correcting executives on things I was the SME on.

      1. Stef*

        I came here to say the same! I manage a person with the same issue and I told her during a few 1:1s that if she is part of a meeting, it is because we think her contribution is relevant, otherwise she wouldn’t be there.
        We are part of the technical team in our company too and, even if she is junior, she probably knows more about technical aspects than the client or the account managers, and she is often the one doing analyses and recommending changes, even if I am the face clients see more often, so she knows the ins and outs of most of things even better than me!

    13. Todd Chrisley Knows Best*

      The only way I was ever able to overcome it was in high school when my grade depended on chiming in (with substance) a number of times. (A nightmare for anxiety!) Could you mentally implement something similar? “I need to speak up and contribute or deliberate at least 3 times for the sake of my job.” Even if that’s not the case, mentally spinning it that way may help you get over that hurdle.

    14. DDJ*

      Start small! It gives you practice. I agree with all the commenters saying that you should prepare for the meeting and take notes, and then highlight anything you’re looking for clarification on. Don’t think that you have to give a spiel every time you speak. It does get easier. When I started my job, I was the quiet, very nervous new person who couldn’t say anything without turning beet red and staring down at the table. Now, I’m one of the people who can lead a meeting. But it started with brief questions, or short comments.

      Something like “I agree, that’s a great point.” Or “I hadn’t thought of that, that’s a really great thing to keep in mind as we move through this.” Not the greatest contributions, but nothing that will make people think “Wow, that’s a really long-winded way of saying you have nothing of value to add here.”

      Also, if you’ve taken notes or made some talking points, and they’re raised during the meeting by someone else, you can say, “I had been wondering that as well, I’m glad you asked that question.” Or if you’re asked “Anything else?” you can say “The thing that jumped out at me preparing for this meeting was X, but since we’ve gone over that, I don’t have anything else to add.”

      Another thing is just getting out of the “Everyone is going to laugh at me or judge me” mentality. Even if you do happen to say something “stupid” (which I’m thinking is unlikely, but I totally understand the fear), just know that either someone will correct you, which adds to the discussion, or it’s something that will land a little flat and then the conversation will move on, and likely no one will remember it. And who knows, maybe what you’re worried about as a “stupid” comment or question is actually something that will really benefit the discussion!

      Be prepared for the awkward feelings. Your stomach will feel a little fluttery, you might blush. Acknowledge it’ll happen so it doesn’t add to the discomfort. I get really warm when I feel embarrassed, and I blush, so I just prepare myself for those sensations and if/when I feel them, they’re no surprise.

      For me, it was a case of “practice makes perfect.” Start out small and work your way up. And good luck!

    15. valc2323*

      You said you’re the “most junior person”, so I’m assuming you’re not the only one from your organization present at these meetings. Do you often attend with your supervisor or a mentor, or another person you feel comfortable talking with one on one?

      You could ask them to help you out a little bit with building confidence. Ask them to help you by calling on you every now and then during meetings – “ok, great point, Bob. Hannah, do you have anything you want to add before we move on?” – sooner than you realize, you will start anticipating when someone is going to call on you, and speaking up before they do.

      Good luck!

  9. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

    Do any of you have any insight into or experience with transitioning out of clinical medicine? My spouse is getting burned out and we’re trying to brainstorm a Plan B. There are hundreds of online articles, but most of them presume you want to stay in the hospital setting (and go into administration), and/or have pots of money (to launch that llama-grooming business you’ve always dreamed of!). The first may not be true for my spouse, and I know the second won’t be. Any success stories out there? Advice for taking steps now that will make it easier in, say, five years to do something new? Tips to handle the burnout in the meantime, besides trying a different clinical job to see if that helps? We both work full-time, are many years away from retirement, and have a young family to support, so “flying by the seat of our pants” is less attractive of an option than it might have once been, but so is “sucking it up” indefinitely. Help!

        1. Anony*

          In that case it might be helpful to start setting up collaborations with scientists now. Also start writing case studies to increase publications on their CV. The case studies could also help pave the way in editing a journal if they are good.

          1. Book Lover*

            I could be wrong, so very much just my experience, but at this point there are very few reputable journals with interest in case studies. Maybe case series, but if you want to go into research you really need more than that. At least where I am, you’re not going to get money or research time (or hired) based on some case studies on your CV.

        2. The OG Anonsie*

          I’d look into CROs, biotech, and pharmaceutical companies. Also, tech companies that make products for healthcare settings, whoever might be near you. In all of these cases they often like to bring in people who had worked in a clinical setting before (and therefore understand the customers / collaborators) but have a much more relaxed environment.

          I made a very similar switch myself after finally swearing off working in hospitals forever. A lot of people get sick of hospitals and move out to these places, so the pipeline is actually relatively well established.

        3. BioBot*

          I’d be pretty careful about considering academia as a less-stressful option. I guess it really depends on what position they’re thinking of looking for, but my experience has been that it’s not that conducive to work-life balance. And if you’re not running your own research lab, the pay is probably going to be a big drop. But running your own lab (especially as a new lab head), is *really* not low stress.

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            It depends heavily on what kind of research you’re doing and where. Clinical research is a very different animal than the bench kind, and working on the regulatory end rather than the bench or patient-facing bits is yet another one.

    2. Anon Anon*

      Has he considered moving into pharma? Or going to work for a professional association, publication company, or consultancy? I know several people who transitioned out of clinical roles (mostly because they wanted normal working hours), and now work in a variety of roles. Most of them did have to take a pretty significant paycut (except for the couple people I know who moved to pharma), but most them feel that they have a better quality of life.

      1. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        This is exactly what I hope we’ll be able to say in 10 years: it involved a pay cut, and was totally worth it. It’s so heartening to hear that other people have found ways to make this work. I think part of the problem is that his cohort is still relatively young, so we don’t personally know any people who have made this leap yet.

      2. Bostonian*

        I was going to suggest this. Pharma companies have medical directors that are former clinicians for medical expertise/guidance (NOT involved with actually running clinical trials), and they pay nicely.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My mother left private practice to work for the government. I don’t know all of the details, but she consulted on disability policy from a healthcare perspective on a pretty broad level; think, advising policymakers on what stages of disease typically looked like. She ended up retiring from that job. Granted, this was a long time ago and I grew up in a geographic area where government work was prevalent, but that’s one “success story” I can think of. Some people around where I live now leave clinical work to consult for pharmaceutical companies.

      What does your spouse enjoy doing in the context of his/her work? Patient care? Research? Writing? That could help us narrow it down. :)

      1. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        It sounds like your mom did really important and personally satisfying work. My spouse is currently doing his own hard thinking about what he likes/dislikes about clinical practice, but I’d say that the high-stakes life-or-death pressure of it has been a big piece of his burnout. Ideally, his Plan B would involve a job that doesn’t have to come home with him at night. My hunch is that that piece of it will be almost more important than the type of work he’s doing, since he seems to enjoy (and is good at) a wide variety of tasks, such as patient care, research, administrative tasks, etc.

        1. Natalie*

          I am not in medicine so my apologies if this is one of those obvious questions that you just get sick of answering, but is there some other medical specialty or a different kind of clinic or something that he could transition to that would be less life-and-death?

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            Butting in, but depending on what he means by life-and-death the answer is generally no. When you’re dealing with clinical anything, even when you’re not in patient care directly, there’s always a bottom red line that’s incredibly high pressure.

            Unless he means literally life and death as in he’s been working in, say, critical care or some other especially high pressure area, and moving to a lower pressure area like an ambulatory specialty clinic in… Oh, say, dermatology, would fit the bill. But in my experience, if you’re burned out in the ER or something, the decompression you get from just switching to an ambulatory is often not enough to feel relieved. Even a mellow outpatient clinic has an element of rush and pressure that’s very stressing. So for some people that switch is enough, and for a lot of us it’s not. By the time you’re going “I don’t want to be in clinical care at all anymore,” I’m guessing you’re in the latter category.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Trust me on this one– her work NEVER came home with her. :) Mom says that most of the time she was bored silly.

    5. Someone Else Needs The Wood*

      Insurance companies (life, health,dental, disability) always need peer reviewers and policy consultants.

      2. grace*

        Came here to say this! Insurance companies and pharma companies are great about hiring former health care providers, especially if they can link previous experience with their products. A lot of people I know have a thing against “big pharma,” but there’s a ton of companies doing great things — if the morals come up, I highly recommend orphan drug pharma-specialists. They often – not always – have great benefits and a good work environment*.

        I’d also recommend analyst positions – new products happen all the time, and the approval process needs people at every step at the way.

        * Caveat that I don’t work for an insurance company or pharma, but I know people who do, and they’ve loved it.

      3. Hildegard Vonbingen*

        A friend of mine worked for the state of California, Dept. of Health Services, as a medical program consultant. She’s an M.D. She reviewed documentation and made policy recommendations and decisions. Never dealt with applicants/patients. Totally non-clinical. She was making about $15,000 per month, I believe, so less than $180K a year. Not bad by my lights, but everyone’s financial needs are different. I’m sure other states have such positions.

    6. TerraTenshi*

      Most of the transitions I can think of definitely involve staying in healthcare, so whether or not they’ll be attractive probably depends on what is causing his burnout and what parts of his job he dislikes the most. That being said, if being at the hospital is the thing he dislikes, rather than administration work, I’d suggest looking into blood banking as an alternative. I work with someone now who made almost this exact transition and is pretty vocal about how much she likes it.

    8. Hey-eh*

      I work in market research in the healthcare sector so pharma companies are my main clients. A lot hire MDs as “Medical Science Liaisons” who aren’t exactly sales people, but are assigned a particular medical area and they speak to physicians on a peer to peer level about the current drugs of their company and other companies, what’s coming down the pipeline, what’s new in the journals, etc. They help launch drugs and give an MD perspective to brand launches. If your spouse has any interest in marketing or product development this might be an area to explore.

      1. JustaTech*

        My company has a bunch of these people and they’re really vital. They’re not sales (that’s another department) but they talk with doctors about if the doctors should prescribe our treatment and explain how it works and risks and benefits and all that stuff. (Can you tell I work in the lab?)

        Often companies that are looking for MSLs are like for them to have relevant experience, like urology for a bladder drug or whatever. And I think the pay is still pretty good.

        There’s also pharmacovigilence, which is (basically) the people who follow up on every single adverse event and make sure drugs are safe.

    9. Alice*

      Look into switching into translational research support, maybe? It might be hard to find a position on hard money though.

    10. Anony Today*

      Is your spouse a nurse or technician? There are opportunities in eye banking and organ/tissue recovery.

    11. Nanc*

      I know lots of doctors who work for healthcare software/technology companies, mostly in marketing. The things they have in common is they are good at public speaking and writing (or have fantastic ghost writers) and also very tech savvy.

      Is he on LinkedIn? He could join some healthcare tech groups and see if he could get some answers/suggestions.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    12. Kate*

      Do you mind sharing what profession within clinical medicine? Options are going to vary pretty dramatically based on that.

    13. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      Thank you for all of these replies! It is especially helpful to hear about specific stories. For the folks you know who moved into pharma or government work, etc., did they do anything special to position themselves for that work ahead of time? Any continuing education or credentialling? Or did they just start putting themselves out there? I don’t have a good handle on what a first step even looks like.

      1. second-hand kn0wledge*

        I had a family member who moved into pharma, and the only qualification he needed (as far as I am aware) was the M.D. he already had. I know he worked with head-hunters and recruiters who I think were industry-specific.

        He worked with a big pharma company on ensuring that their clinical trials were in compliance with regulations, and reviewing the results, I believe.

        I have another family member who has spent her career in pharmaceutical companies preparing them for FDA review. Her degree was in nursing, and I don’t think she got further credentials but she made the switch a long time ago, so that may have changed.

      2. The OG Anonsie*

        Without knowing what your spouse’s actual job or qualifications are, giving really specific advice is difficult for me. The opportunities for someone who used to be a nurse are different than the ones for someone with an MD which are different than the ones for someone like me who was not a clinician but worked in regulatory and clinical support. And the direction you go is also going to inform what you need to have, for research vs education vs marketing vs policy…

        I would suggest, and this is kinda dumb but if you’re starting from scratch it can help, that he finds companies (or government agencies) in your area that fall into these suggested categories and look at 1) and employee information you can find, maybe track people down on LinkedIn and see what their histories are and 2) current openings and what the posted requirements are. And actually, doing 2 then going back and doing 1 to see how much existing employees in those roles actually meet the proposed qualifications is a good idea.

    14. sugarplum*

      Healthcare *operations*, rather than administration? Physicians could be pretty helpful here. This would be more widely available at larger health systems than standalone hospitals/practices, but worth looking into. Insurance companies are another option, again, particularly large systems or integrated coverage/care orgs. Depending on their clinical specialty, there may also be nonprofit health-related organizations (either practice orgs or just local healthcare NPOs) that may have administrative roles available that would be a good fit for someone with a medical background, but would be very different from hospital/clinic administration.

      Depending on your location (if you’re in the US): CDC or NIH? Though budgets are obviously a concern there.

    15. 42*

      This was my career path. I was a clinician in a hospital for 14 years. I took some time off when I had kids, then on my own learned the ins and outs of medical editing (because I discovered I had a knack for it), and now I’m in pharma marketing.

      I know the burnout well – nights, weekends, holidays – but I have no advice on how to handle it. I just got so resentful after a time, I couldn’t stand it anymore.

      I never knew work could be fun again and I’m very happy to have a ‘boring 9-5 desk job’. It can be done!

      2. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        Thanks so much for this. “I never knew work could be fun again” brought tears to my eyes. Why does clinical medicine have to be so rough on its providers?! Congratulations on finding such a great way forward.

        1. 42*

          Thank you, and it’s true. I couldn’t believe it.

          It’s so hard on the providers, that’s so true. It’s a difficult life, and I have so much respect for those in it. The best of fortune to you and your husband!

    16. KMB213*

      I was going to suggest pharma, as well. I know several doctors (and a few nurses) who have successfully and happily transitioned from clinical medicine to pharma roles, with only a small pay cut or with no pay cut, but with more work/life balance.

    17. Anony*

      One thing to consider is reaching out to the career center at the university he attended for medical school. Many will give advice to alumni and they may be aware of alternate careers where an MD would be beneficial.

    18. Marketing LadyPA*

      My husband is a physician and just moved into Managed Care as a Medical Director. Basically his company acts as a liaison between hospitals and insurance companies to approve/deny coverage for procedures and hospital stays. He loves it and makes more money!

    19. Die Forelle (The Trout)*

      My husband made a transition out of a clinical nursing role to an analyst-type position. I don’t fully understand his job, and it’s actually a new position at his institution, so sometimes he doesn’t either. I do know that he reviews patient charts to look for accurate charting for insurance/billing purposes, among other things. My husband was also very burnt out from clinical work and really appreciates the “normal” and consistent working hours and less emotionally demanding work. If there are large hospitals in your area, your spouse could watch their job postings for opportunities like this; my husband has said there is probably going to be an increase in the need for this type of position. Sorry I can’t provide a job title or keywords to look for though!

    20. Supply Chain Analyst*

      I work in the Supply Chain for a hospital system, and a lot of my co-workers are ex-clinical. It’s really helpful to have someone who knows how the supplies get used, and can identify key differences in products!

    21. Book Lover*

      I work in a very large group practice. It means no nights, no weekends, vacations and trips are real vacations and trip (i.e. someone is covering for me for messages and phone calls and results). So that works for me – not that I don’t sometimes feel burned out because of patient expectations or bad outcomes, but time away is refreshing. So if he feels unhappy and burned out, it may be the setting and not the clinical aspect (or maybe it is, and he doesn’t want to see patients, but just a thought).

      One person I knew finished her residency and went straight into another in pathology because she was seriously not cut out for direct patient care and was very unhappy. He would need to take a few years of a significant pay cut, but depending on his background, he may be an attractive candidate to a pathology or other residency program.

    22. ..Kat..*

      I am assuming your spouse is a doctor, since you say “medicine.” As a nurse in a high stress area (pediatric ICU), I was able to become part time. This helped me greatly.

      Another option is to talk with his Medical director or boss. Let them know what is going on and ask for recommendations. Rather than lose your spouse, they might be able to make changes.

      I also recommend therapy. Some place to process what is going on.

      Good luck.

    23. Roza*

      If he’s interested in healthcare data, there are a fair number of tech companies in the space that hire MDs to provide clinical guidance on the sorts of analyses they run (eg “We’re trying to identify which doctors treat condition x well, what procedures or prescriptions should we look for?”)

    24. Nerfmobile*

      My sister works for a company that offers case management services (includes direct patient management, utilization reviews, running pregnancy support programs, etc.). They mostly hire nurses, but I think may have one or two roles for physicians (case review, protocols, I don’t know). Looking around in the insurance-related roles may be useful.

    25. Tuesday Next*

      I don’t think anyone else made this suggestion but I know a doctor who moved into a Clinical UX role. He specialises in user experience research and design for medical apps and devices. Your spouse may be interested in something like that?

  10. an anon ymous commentator*

    I have always enjoyed reading here but I have noticed a troubling pattern (especially lately). It seems that when someone is hurt or mistreated by someone else, they are overlooked and the person who hurt them is given a pass because of something like mental illness, or abuse, or a traumatic event. Examples: in the bird phobia letter more than one person wanted to give Jack a pass and there was a lot of victim blaming at Liz. In the letter where the person with anxiety opened their coworker’s pay stub and went to their home screaming and weeping about why the co-worker didn’t like them, some people gave her a pass and said the co-worker overreacted or lacked compassion for that letter writer. In the letter where Jane set up her co-worker for fraud at their financial job some people were scrambling to absolve her because she was being abused while having no compassion for her co-worker, who was innocent and had her life destroyed to the point of homelessness. Even in the letter this morning about the miscarriage people wanted to give Jane a pass despite people who have been through a similar thing saying Jane crossed a line.

    I have noticed the pattern where someone who has been hurt by a person with mental illness or past abuse or trauma is expected to give them a pass and move on, or is not allowed to be upset or react how a victim does. I have seen this play out in real life but I have noticed it especially on here lately.

    I can’t stand it and I won’t be reading the comments going forward because of it (though I will still read Alison’s excellent responses and advice). I do empathize with someone who has suffered from harm or illness but that does not give them the right to mistreat or victimize others. If they hurt someone they are wrong full stop and they need to take responsibility and own up to it. No passes or excuses. The people they hurt do not owe them forgiveness just because they have mental illness or trauma and they should not be expected to roll over and just say everything is fine. They should not have to be compassionate or be the bigger person. They are held to a different standard than other victims of non mentally ill/traumatized/abused people and it is not fair to them. If a non mentally ill person hurt someone who is mentally ill they would be raked over the coals (and rightly so) and people would side with the victim. It should be the same even if the victim and perpetrator are reversed.

    It really rankles me that people who don’t have mental health struggles or past trauma are expected to ignore the fact they are a victim and must spare the feelings of those who hurt them, lest they have people side against them or accuse them of lacking compassion. No one has the right to mistreat or hurt someone and if someone gets hurt they are allowed to be angry and not like the person who hurt them. It is normal and healthy for them to feel this way and they should not be looked down on or expected to feel differently.

    1. Monsters of Men*

      I mean, this is how it is across the board right now. In the midst of trying to reverse all of this stigma we have about mental illness, people bend over backwards to excuse it. It’s like when social justice really became *trendy* and all of a sudden it was hard and fast “you’re either totally innocent or you’re the worst person ever.”

      Eventually, it levels out. It’s the culture of the internet. It swerves from one extreme to another. Hard and fast right and wrong call out culture — you’ll see it on any website you go to.

      1. neverjaunty*

        It’s not about mental illness per se, I don’t think. It’s more that most people don’t like conflict, with a big dose of defensive attribution.

        1. Monsters of Men*

          I should say that my opinion is coloured by the fact that I am on many social media websites, and used to be a big name Tumblr blogger who watched the rise and fall of this kind of culture and was actually one of the “victims” of it. Two years ago it was a lot of “this person is *insert diagnosis here* and CAN’T CONTROL WHAT THEY’RE DOING/HAVE A REASON TO BE MAD/DO NOT NEED THIS DISRUPTION” etc. Now it’s a big conversation about what is good for you in regards to keeping your mental health in line, so when I see this repeating itself, I just have a feeling about which way the pendulum swings.

    2. fposte*

      I have to say I see the situation somewhat differently. I’ve seen a couple of posts to the effect of what you’re saying, but mostly when people are talking about sympathy, they’re not arguing that sympathy should be limited to the person they’re talking about but extended to her as well. That’s what I see happening in the miscarriage post–that sympathy isn’t a zero-sum game and that we’re generally better exercising it more rather than less. And I would definitely prefer to go with less raking over the coals for everybody.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed.

        It’s possible to feel badly for someone and to extend them understanding even while maintaining that their behavior is not acceptable. That can sometimes be a difficult combination to convey online, and I think we run into some issues where what some commenters see as extending empathy, others see as excusing bad behavior. It’s something the same as the discussion on today’s earlier post about apologies as a social lubricant versus apologies as an admission of wrongdoing.

        1. a girl has no name*

          I really like your take on this. It reminds me of a tweet I saw recently where someone said (about a dead celebrity that had passed) “what if he did both good and bad things in his life.” People were trying to silo the celebrity into a category of good man or bad when really humans are complex and you can do good things and bad things and never really fit either mold. I think this applies to this too. You can be a good person worthy of sympathy and also make mistakes that hurt others.

        2. fposte*

          Yes, I will again hat-tip to great former commenter hildi, who was one of the most talented communicators I’ve ever seen at being compassionate without necessarily being exculpatory.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Man, I miss hildi! I hope wherever she is, she’s continuing to spread her excellence. She and I tended to disagree on things to some extent, but I have bucketloads of respect for her nonetheless.

            1. fposte*

              Well, that was hildi–it was always clear that she respected you even if you weren’t agreeing with her.

              1. broadcastlady*

                Why did this Hildi stop commenting? I’m fairly new! I want to meet Hildi(via commenting).

                1. fposte*

                  I think it was a combination of little kid and changing life. But if you search for “interview with an incredibly diplomatic person” you’ll see Alison’s Q&A with her from a couple of years ago.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Agreed! I always wished I had her skill in balancing compassion/kindness with accountability. But I also admire your ability to gently talk people off the edge, fposte. I wish we had more of it in the comments (and I wish I had more of it as a skill).

        4. Reba*

          Yes, as commenters and as people I think we often struggle with “Both/all things can be true at once.”

          1. Reba*

            Sorry, I don’t mean like “all facts are equally valid” …

            but like, “Someone can screw up AND have hard sh*t going and be deserving of compassion AND the situation still needs to be dealt with by someone in authority AND maybe it will never be made up to the person that’s been wronged AND maybe that’s all the resolution we’re going to get.”

      2. Overeducated*

        Yes. I think there is a difference between understanding and excusing, and people calling for the first (empathy) are not necessarily calling for the second (“free pass”). It is possible to have compassion for both victim and perpetrator, we don’t have to choose a good guy and a bad guy…especially as third parties on the internet with no impact on consequences.

      3. hbc*

        I agree so heartily about zero-sum thinking. It’s like the letter from the person who bit her awful coworker. It’s like, some people ended up arguing that biting is no big deal because otherwise that detracted from the guilt of the coworker. And others that no matter what led it, that OP crossed the threshold into The Aggressor and not any better than someone who chomps down on a stranger for looking at her funny. Two people can be wrong without diminishing each other’s wrongness, and you can acknowledge and take into account motivation without excusing.

        I can feel sorry for Jack *and* Liz. I can feel sorry for Jack even if I fired him because he can’t do his job without injuring people. I can feel sorry for Liz while exploring whether there’s some accommodation we can make where Liz (and everyone else) feel safe.

        1. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

          I’ve noticed this too… not just with the comments here. I think in general we (in the global sense) are used to be polarized in our thinking that we’ve forgotten that it’s possible to be on both sides of an issue or discussion. There are too many assumptions made sometimes.

          In other words, just because I said I like chocolate cake, that doesn’t mean that I hate vanilla.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That’s how I felt about the miscarriage thing. I felt bad for Jane too, but she shouldn’t have yelled and it’s okay for a manager to let her know that yelling is unacceptable.

          That said, being yelled at once is not unsurvivable, and it doesn’t rise to the level of retaliation. One commenter (I forget who) said that this was the perfect situation for pretending something didn’t happen. If the manager dealt with it, then fine; it’s dealt with, and now the best thing is to move on.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          This is how I typically perceive the comments. I don’t think it’s always as much excusing the bad actor, but I do think there’s a desire to identify a good guy and a bad guy. And sometimes in the letters, as is the case in life in general, there’s shared culpability and/or shared goodness.

          I also suspect many commenters have been through experiences they perceive as analogous to an LW’s experience, and so the situation can sometimes be triggering for them. In those cases, I think the absolutism is usually a protective mechanism to help them reinforce their emotional boundaries to protect against something they endured that was extremely hurtful to them.

          1. fposte*

            I genuinely started to respond to this with an analogous anecdote and realized the irony just in time :-).

      4. Oranges*

        This.

        I can feel sorry for Hitler (which yes, I did as a mental exercise) without saying his pain in anyway shape or form excuses or even mitigates what he did.

        Empathizing with other people (even “monsters”) I feel is important because the dehumanizing of admittedly horrible people causes issues in our society since then we don’t see things clearly. Extreme example: Only “monsters” rape people, my friend isn’t a “monster”, ergo the woman must be lying.

        1. As Close As Breakfast*

          Your ‘extreme example’ legitimately stopped my brain for a hot second. And I mean that in the best possible way. I was sitting here thinking about how I don’t necessarily disagree with what’s being discussed but how I often feel like it leads to a sort of “it’s just not okay not to be really empathetic and have compassion for everybody, and you’re somehow not evolved enough if all you think is that the aggressor is wrong and have only bad feelings for them” argument. (That was a really crazy paraphrasing of a very generalized situation, I know!) But your last sentence? It really struck me down to the core of my being. I don’t even know how to describe it yet… but you caused a shift in my head. And I really just wanted to sincerely thank you for that. I may never be a person who’s default is to have compassion for everyone, but your comment here will live in my brain forever. (That sounds creepier than I mean it, I swear!)

          1. Oranges*

            Thanks. I’m blushing (also amused at your last parans since I have a rather… dark sense of humor and it amused).

            I agree that these types of discussions can come off like (or in truth even be) “We (the empathic people) are more evolved than you (judging people)” which just… no. There are no “right” ways to feel but I think trying to be compassionate/empathetic to all humans while also holding them responsible is important. To have one without the other makes society go in very very dark places. I fail at it sometimes but I’m… human. Just gotta brush off and try again.

      5. Annabelle*

        Agreed. I think these types of situations are generally kind of nuanced and complex, and you can’t reallt have a binary “OP is the victim and traumatized coworker is the bad guy” or vice versa. IMO, compassion for all parties is generally always a good thing.

      6. Jules the Third*

        +10000 I had a lot of sympathy for everyone in that bird phobia post, and also for the miscarriage post.

    3. strawberries and raspberries*

      From my point of view, I think what gets people upset are the (few and far between, admittedly) comments along the lines of “mental illness = asshole/bad person,” as if one causes the other. It’s not that anyone is unequivocally excusing asshole behavior by someone suffering from mental illness or trauma- of course they have to be accountable for their bad behavior towards others, just like someone without mental illness. But for the people making the “mental illness doesn’t give you a pass comments,” I think it’s hard for them to understand that when you suffer from mental illness or deeply internalized trauma, the bar for accountability is going to be different because sometimes you literally can’t regulate your emotions or thoughts or behaviors in the same way a “normal” person would. So I don’t think anyone is saying that we should always side with the badly-behaving mentally ill person, but rather that we need to view the behavior in context of the mental illness so that the offended party can 1) not personalize it as much and 2) work towards getting the best outcome from someone who will not respond the way we might expect. (I say this as a social worker with very low tolerance for bullshit who thought Bird Jack’s behavior was reprehensible and wanted to shake the letter writer who opened the paycheck.)

    4. Another Sarah*

      I agree 1000%. I have noticed it in the comments here. And I agree with you that it is wrong. I especially don’t like it when the victim blaming starts. The bird letter for example had so much of that.

      (Weird. The first few times I loaded this thread your comment was the very first one. Now though it has been moved to below 9 other comments that were posted after you. I wonder if it is just me that happened to our why it happened. The comments were definitely posted after you but now they are higher)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’ve noticed that sometimes when I release something out of moderation that was submitted earlier than stuff that’s already there, sometimes it messes up the order but I don’t know why.

        1. Eva*

          In this case though, the nine posts that are now above this one were posted below it. They were there for over 15 minutes through multiple refreshes. They were not in moderation and had replies. Then suddenly they were all above this one. I noticed the same thing as Another Sarah.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I know! That’s what I mean. (Those weren’t in moderation but others were; there are always a bunch from the open thread that go to moderation.) I don’t know why it happens.

    5. Enough*

      Unfortunately this is not really new just more out there. My neighbor 35 years ago worked as a school aide. When the student with documented educational/behavior/mental issue hit her nothing happened to the student. If he had been “normal” there would have been consequences.

      1. Elf*

        I work in schools, and I have to say that while I am in full agreement with you about what should have happened in that case, “nothing happened to the student” is the most common consequence of bad student behavior, regardless of whether the student has a documented disability. It’s also tricky to punish students with documented disabilities, because you have to have a hearing to determine whether the disruptive behavior was “primarily a result” of the disability. It’s meant to protect, for example, a kid with tourette’s from being punished for cursing at a teacher, since profane outbursts are an actual symptom of the condition, but in reality it can make it very difficult to punish a kid with documented difficulties with impulse control for almost anything.

      2. Ella X*

        Yeah as a parent with a kid with special needs/in a special education classroom perhaps it is the people who think kids can be separated by “normal” and therefore “not normal” are the ones who are a detriment to schools/society. Not the people who have empathy and realize that most situations are not black and white.

        Seriously….”normal”?!

        1. Annabelle*

          Seriously, people with special needs aren’t abnormal. That attitude is why people are trying so hard to dismantle stigma and ableism in the first place.

      3. Artemesia*

        This is a huge problem in many public schools where children with diagnosed behavioral problems are allowed to disrupt the education of every other kid in the class. I have heard of situations where a kid was allowed to wonder up and down the rows hitting desks and being disruptive and the teacher was not allowed to remove him. Schools are all over the give kids with special need special breaks but not well enough resourced to provide the kind of assistance a teacher needs to have kids like this in the classroom. The pendulum has definitely swung in the direction of depriving most kids in a classroom of significant instruction while tolerating disruptive kids.

          1. Denise in Las Vegas*

            My Daughters 3rd grade classroom. :-(

            I ended up having to escalate to the superintendent of the district to get that kid OUT. Superintendent thought he had me when he stated “what about “child’s” education?” and I could hear his astonishment when I shot back with “what about the REST of the children’s education? 24 kids are getting NOTHING because of ONE KID.” Problem child was moved into a special program a week later.

            Later in high school the principle decided that an excellent teacher could no longer discipline kids disrupting Teachers class. He stopped teaching. That had been an awesome class for my kid. Ruined by kids being allowed to ignore rules.

            I realize this doesn’t count as a citation.

    6. Not really a waitress*

      My 17 year old daughter has major depressive disorder and anxiety. She will lash out, often at me, but her brothers as well. Her favorite excuse is “well i have a mental illness.” I remind her it seems like that she has an illness but her illness is not a free pass to treat people poorly.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I think it’s good to think about mental illnesses more similarly to the way (non-ableist/generally not terrible) people think about physical illnesses/handicaps. Some life functions are unaffected, some are possible but significantly more difficult, and some may be entirely impossible. I have diagnosed ADHD; that doesn’t mean that I have carte blanche to forget things as soon as I hear them and keep zero track of anything, but most of the people close to me know that I’m likely to forget things easily and they understand that it isn’t an indication that I don’t value them or what they have to say — just the same as my friend who has fibro isn’t declining invitations because she hates me, or because it is physically 100% impossible for her to leave the house, but it’s significantly more of an energy investment for her.

        1. Autum Anon*

          There’s a saying in the Disabled and mentally ill communities I’m in which goes ‘it’s a reason, not an excuse’, which I think is pretty apt, and it’s possibly useful to remember in this kind of discussion.

        2. ..Kat..*

          Right. You have ADHD, and it helps those around you to understand what that means for you and how to help you work around it. BUT, you are also working to help yourself and mitigate the burden on others.

    7. Forever Anon*

      The comments around the abused woman ruining her co-workers life were horrifying. You can have sympathy for a woman going through abuse, while also acknowledging that ruining another person’s life to give yourself an easy out is despicable.

      2. Oranges*

        A actually saw a lot of people saying that. Well, not despicable because that has a pretty harsh undertone but I didn’t see many people saying “Let’s give Jane a free pass” I think most of them were “I… have no idea what to do about Jane.” or “Demote Jane”.

        Because yes, not okay but again we’re not at the same place of “does intent matter”. You apparently say “Nope” I say “intent does matter but it doesn’t magically make the harm go away”.

        It’s why we punish murder one more than we do manslaughter. It doesn’t really matter to the dead person. They still dead.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Agreed.

          I had a ton of empathy for Jane in that letter because I know firsthand how much of a mindf**k abuse can be. But I still advocated for Jane to be terminated, after a leave period to job-hunt (to be kind to her given the circumstances) because what she did was still a Really Big Deal.

    8. hbc*

      I’m not sure if you’re counting these comments as those you’re not going to read, but what the heck:

      I agree that people shouldn’t get a pass because there’s a reason for their behavior. However, there’s very rarely anyone advocating for a full pass and letting them keep doing it. Liz is just as injured if Jack maliciously pushed her into a parking area with the intention to hurt her, if he panicked and bowled her over in a careless way, if he had a sudden seizure from an undetected but easily treatable medical condition, or a sociopath will kill Jack’s family unless he non-fatally injures her. Liz is a victim in all of these situations, but I don’t think anyone would reasonably argue that the response should be the same in all cases.

      I will never argue against empathy. Having empathy does not mean absolving people, but it involves understanding people and their motivations so you can better respond to a situation. It also allows things like yesterday’s letter where the OP was grateful to a boss who didn’t decide “not showing up at work is unacceptable, I don’t care why” and had some empathy for a tough situation.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Though, respectfully, I disagree that empathy means sympathy or giving someone a pass. People do behave badly because they’re selfish, cruel, thoughtless, or self-centered. You can have empathy for the fact that they’re the hero of their own story without also treating them as if they’re a hero.

        2. hbc*

          I don’t see at all how we disagree. I never argued for empathy giving someone a pass. It *might* lead to it, but it might lead to a lighter “punishment”, the same one, or harsher than you had in mind.

          Heck, if Gavin de Becker can run a world-famous security firm and advocate for empathy/understanding as part of making oneself safer, it sure doesn’t mean letting people walk all over you.

      2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        I agree 100%. There is a balance to be struck between being compassionate and giving a free pass or allowing a bad situation to persist at the expense of a wronged party. What that looks like in practice will always depend on the circumstances.

        I do remember comments on the bird phobia post basically saying “Liz should be ashamed for demanding that Jack be fired when Jack is mentally ill,” even though Liz did no such thing (IIRC, after she quit, the company tried to get her back but she wasn’t willing to return as long as Jack was there). I don’t think it was the majority of posts, but I can see some basis for the perception, even if I’m not sure I agree it’s the generally prevailing opinion across the board.

        1. fposte*

          I also think we have a tendency to see some opinions as more representative than they are; I regularly see people recollecting a view as being a lot more widely held than it was if you look at the numbers (or forgetting that it was just one person who said the thing several times). Similarly, I think it’s a natural tendency to put things into our view of the narrative without realizing we’re doing it–it’s pretty common to see “The OP *literally said*” about something the OP didn’t literally say :-).

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            Very true. And sometimes you hear “EVERYONE was saying/doing X” when really, plenty of people were saying Y, but the comments saying X left a bigger impression so take up more mindspace in the recollection.

          2. Myrin*

            Ha, I literally (for real!) did a thought (or deed?) exercise about this yesterday!

            I love reading fanfics and am part of several fandoms (although I’d generally call myself a casual fan of about everything but that’s neither here nor there). In the last couple of days, several big bloggers in one of these fandoms suddenly started talking about how “99%” of fic writers favour a certain problematic trope in their writing. Now I’m sure the 99 was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it was very obvious through several blog posts that they still meant “the vast majority” by it; cue rage-induced ranting about it, lasting over several days.

            This is a small fandom. I have read almost every finished fic there is to it on AO3. And because I had the time and felt petty, I actually went through the whole tag and looked specifically for fics utilising that trope.
            Out of almost 900 fics, 11 had used it extensively and about 5 to 10 had made allusions to it.

            Now, I won’t be starting to participate in these discussions because I don’t see the need to steer attention my way, but I found that very interesting in terms of psychology of exaggeration.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Our news media has been doing this for ages. “Everyone is saying X.” Uh, no, not really.
              There’s an interesting article on Slate regarding the War of the Worlds myth.

    9. Sylvan*

      I see things a bit differently, but overall I agree. I don’t think that disclosing mental illness, trauma, or other difficult circumstances gives someone a complete free pass – or that being hurt or upset by bad behavior makes someone bigoted against those of us with mental illnesses. The last thing isn’t an idea that I’ve heard from the vast majority of commenters here, though, it’s just one that tends to come up once or twice in each comment section on posts like you described.

    10. Libby*

      There’s a big difference between giving someone a free pass and saying they are a horrible human being who should live in shame forever for one action. There is room in the middle for that, and it seems like we’re not getting there.

      1. Libby*

        I wrote that wrong. I mean there is a wide range of responses between those two things in my first sentence and those shouldn’t be the only reactions. Something like that. I’m having trouble explaining what I mean.

        1. Turquoisecow*

          I think I get what you’re saying. Some commenters (people in general) seem to want a mentally ill wrongdoer – or a wrongdoer in general – to suffer horrendously for an action which may have been malicious or not. But while the reason for the action doesn’t change the outcome for the victim, it can and should change the outcome for the wrongdoer.

          To use the bird example, if Jack had maliciously pushed Liz in front of a car, that’s a clear criminal action, and he should possibly face criminal repercussions in addition to losing his job. She’s in horrible pain. If he accidentally pushed her, she’s still in horrible pain, but he shouldn’t be criminally persecuted.

          If it’s a mental illness, the line is not as clear. Does he have the ability to not freak out when he sees the bird? Is he capable of reacting in a way that doesn’t cause harm to his coworker? Should accommodations be made? Should he face criminal repercussions? No matter the result for him, Liz is still in pain and her life has been changed.

          I think it seems like some commenters are disregarding the victim when they discuss what should happen to the wrongdoer. Some people come down hard on the severe punishment side and some people are more sympathetic to mental illness as a cause for bad behavior that injures others (physically or otherwise). The actual result, I think, should be somewhere in the middle.

          1. Forever Anon*

            If Jack knew he had an emotional issue and had failed to adequately manage it, as seemed to be the case, then he is responsible, period. And either way, I hope Liz sues the hell out of him.

            1. Turquoisecow*

              Yeah, but “seemed” is the key word here. We don’t know the whole story, we’re not even hearing from Jack (or Liz, for that matter), and we’re supposed to avoid armchair diagnoses.

              We can have sympathy for a guy managing a serious phobia *while also* having sympathy for a woman pushed into the street by the guy with a serious phobia. Neither of them even needs to be the bad guy.

              Also my point was not to talk about that specific letter, just to bring it up as an example.

              1. Forever Anon*

                If we’re supposed to avoid armchair diagnoses, then all we’re left with is a guy who pushed a woman into traffic. That seems pretty cut and dried, so I’m not sure what your point is. Someone who causes harm to another person through his/her own actions is entitled to no sympathy whatsoever if it could have been avoided.

                1. Jules the Third*

                  ‘if it could have been avoided’

                  Given the complexity of mental illness, and the competing theories (Human Machines vs Mind Independence), there are reasonable rational people, with studies and science behind them, that would say the phobia caused a situation that could not be avoided.

                  I’m not even a big Jack supporter, but the issue of mental illness is not as easy as you want it to be. It gets into a whole lot of Big Picture issues (Free Will vs Human Machines, Social integration vs Social Safety), etc. Your assumptions fall under one psycho-social model, and others are working from a different one, and neither of you are proven wrong, and neither of you are proven right.

                  And until we can come up with effective mental health care, we’re going to need to be able to have these conversations constructively.

                2. Forever Anon*

                  If Jack truly can’t help himself harming other people, then that has interesting ramifications, because he can’t be allowed carte blanche to shove other people into cars whenever he gets spooked. Unless you’d like to be walking alongside someone like that the next time a bird lands on the grass? If he can’t control himself then he has to remove himself. Either way, Jane is a victim, not Jack.

                3. Elizabeth H.*

                  It’s not an armchair diagnosis that Jack has a bird phobia that was the cause of the incident. We were explicitly told by the OP, who provided several points of detailed information, that this is the case. She wrote “Jack told me, my boss and HR he has a phobia of birds and later produced a letter from his therapist stating he has been in therapy and treatment for ornithophobia and anxiety for over two years. He explained it was why he tried to run from the bird and said he didn’t help Liz after she got hit because the bird landed on the ground close to her.”

                  You wrote, “Someone who causes harm to another person through his/her own actions is entitled to no sympathy whatsoever if it could have been avoided.” Do you really believe this true in every context? Imagine a parent whose young child is suffering from leukemia. Leaving a hospital appointment where he’s informed his child has a terminal prognosis, he is trying to drive to work even though he is struggling to concentrate on driving because he is so upset. (He needs his job’s health insurance and has used up sick time so he doesn’t want to call in sick even though he is so distressed that he’s having a hard time focusing on the wheel.) He doesn’t notice that a street light is out so a four way stop is blinking red rather than solid red, and he drives through the intersection mistakenly out of turn, causing a serious crash. Do you have no sympathy for the person who was distracted by grief and let their concentration slip at the worst possible moment? We can say that the person should have avoided the incident by pulling over if they couldn’t concentrate on driving, even if it made him late to work, because it would be better to suffer the consequences at work than to be at risk of causing or contributing to a fatal accident. But even if we believed that, wouldn’t we understand and be able to imagine ourselves in the place of the parent who didn’t decide to pull over? I made up a really dramatic scenario but there are so many reasons even with lower stakes to be sympathetic to somebody who causes harm to another person. It’s such a hard line to take that it borders on cruelty, in my view.

                4. Forever Anon*

                  Nope. In your overly-dramatic scenario, the Dad is in the wrong, full stop. If I have a bad day, get real drunk and plow into a car, nobody’s to blame but me. It’s a matter of self-control, and if you don’t have any, you shouldn’t put yourself in a position to do harm to others.

                5. Natalie*

                  Is it at all possible to NOT re-litigate that letter? It’s been discussed in exhaustive detail at least three times now. I know the OP used it as an example, but that doesn’t mean we have to rehash it for the fourth time.

                7. Forever Anon*

                  Breaks my heart. Talk to someone who’s had their life changed by a drunk driver (an alcoholic who “just couldn’t control himself”) and get back to me.

                8. Oranges*

                  Your model seems to be 100% free will. Mine is 100% genetics/environment. We’re not gonna agree at all.

                  Personally I wouldn’t like living in your world because I want to be able not to worry all the time that I’m gonna be punished for being human (for not being rational 100% of the time since our brains literally cannot do that).

                  My mantra (stolen from Pratchett): It might not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

                9. Forever Anon*

                  Free will, genetics, doesn’t matter. It’s about personal responsibility. You ultimately are responsible for your actions, and your actions have consequences, especially when they cause harm to others. Good luck in the real world.

                10. Oranges*

                  What makes you think I’m not accepting my responsibility? Reiterated: It might not be your fault but it is your responsibility.

                  What that means: it takes away the shame of the action because “fault”/”blame” have a contextual undertone of “you are a horrible person” judging someone’s entire worth based upon one action = not okay (usually). Then stating it’s their responsibility tells them/us that it doesn’t matter what they intended the other person is still harmed.

                  That is why when we mete out judgement as a society we call on someone who is (hopefully) an outside observer who can weigh ALL the pros/cons of their judgement on the WHOLE of society.

                  Hypothetically if giving a murderer a million dollars and a free pass would mean that you saved 10 people from a gruesome death would you as a complete stranger (aka a judge)? Does that change if you were the victim’s parent? If you were the murderer’s parent? If you were one of the 10 people? The good of the entire society must be thought of instead of our sense of outrage that life isn’t fair/just.

                  Does it do society good if the same justice is meted out regardless of circumstances? It appears that most of us state “no”.

                  Also I’m a grown woman. I have been in the “real world” please don’t condescend to me again.

                11. Elizabeth H.*

                  Also, to clarify. When I say sympathy, what I mean exactly by “sympathy” is imagining yourself in the position of the other person, trying to seriously consider what their experience is like, their background and difficulties they may be facing, and trying to understand how they feel in general and in that specific situation.

                12. Turquoisecow*

                  You seem to be incredibly black and white in your thinking and not understanding how mental illnesses work.

                  As Natalie said, I’d like to avoid rehashing the entire thread. Comments like this are what made that whole discussion make me feel sick.

                13. Jules the Third*

                  You’re right, the ‘Human Machine’ model makes for some *really* interesting discussions – my husband and I have been having them for 15ish years, and the best we’ve come up with is a framework that we can use to discuss specific incidents.

                  We’ve been completely unable to come up with a set of universal guidelines and ethics around it, because it *does* bring up bigger issues like Personal Opportunity vs Society’s Safety vs Society’s Opportunity Costs, and Who Gets To Decide, and When Do They Get To Decide (eg Minority Report (story)). Throw in the difficulty that humans have in deciding these things without causing harm to marginalized communities, and, well, like I said, we’ve been hashing it out off and on for a long time, and we’re not the first, only or even smartest ones.

                  Your answer is simple, and based on the Free Will model (eg, Humans can control themselves because they have Free Will). The science is starting to show that neither model is purely correct. When I’m thinking about stuff like this, I like to think through what the science implies and use that to guide my opinions, and to continually challenge my assumptions.

                  My deepest sympathy for any losses you may have had to drunk drivers. I do see the relevance to the discussion we’re having, and I understand how that experience would guide your perceptions.

          2. Oranges*

            The debate about intent. For me intent is not magical. It doesn’t make the harm you did go away. However it CAN be a balm to soothe the hurt and make it not sting as bad.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Impact > Intent

              But Intent does matter. As does if/how you attempt to make amends.

        2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          I think you’re both clear and correct. Accountability will look different in different situations, but there are definitely options that lie somewhere between “shame and shun for eternity” and “complete and total pass” and those often get overlooked.

    11. Triangle Pose*

      I completely agree. Thank you for saying this. Especially today when everyone is eager to ask for compassion for Jane. There wasn’t enough compassion for OP, who was the person actually harmed by Jane.

      1. DCompliance*

        One the things I realized is that sometimes the comments are based on what the letter writer is asking for. On the miscarriage post, the letter writer was asking is she should apologize. I wonder if the comments may have been different if she was asking if she should receive an apology from Jane.

      2. fposte*

        But I think some of this reaction is because the OP wasn’t actually harmed. I understand that for some people getting yelled at is really traumatizing, but that’s not universal and wasn’t so for the OP; I understand that for some people having the manager talk to them was a big thing, but it wasn’t in this case.

        She had something unpleasant happen, but I wouldn’t characterize that as harm.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Exactly this. There wasn’t really anything to indicate that the LW was traumatized by having that conversation with her boss. She seemed to feel genuinely bad that she inadvertently caused a colleague pain.

        2. DCompliance*

          I agree. I think if the OP was stating she felt harmed or was hurt by Jane, then the comments could have been different.

        3. galatea*

          god +1

          I said this on the other thread too, but — as someone who WAS abused, who tends to go directly into scared/freaked out/defensive mode when I get yelled at out of the blue, if I could choose I’d pick getting hollered at over suffering a miscarriage! On the one hand, I really don’t think it’s possible to truly rank pain and suffering; on the other hand, I don’t know that it does anybody any favors to act like literally every bad thing that happens is exactly the same level of bad, you know?

        4. Triangle Pose*

          Actually, between OP and Jane, OP was the one harmed by Jane not the other way around. That’s my to point. Jane suffered something outside of work and sure we can have compassion for her but she projected her own grief on OP inside the work place and went to OPs manager (!) – this is what needs to be addressed.

          1. DCompliance*

            I do see what you are saying and I would feel harmed, but I don’t feel like the letter writer expressed that in the post. So I think people didn’t go there with the comments because the letter writer was going in another direction.

          2. fposte*

            I think we’re just not going to agree on this. I don’t think somebody yelling at me or saying something to my manager about me is harm. I’m not saying that the OP harmed Jane either, but the thing that happened to Jane is on a completely different scale from the thing that happened to the OP.

            1. TL -*

              Yeah, in the majority of my jobs I have talked to my managers on daily or near-daily basis, so it really wouldn’t be a big deal for me to talk to them about this.
              I also have trusted their judgment, so I would trust that a complaint like that would be investigated, not immediately acted upon.

    12. ..Kat..*

      I also struggled with the letters you mentioned for the reasons that you mentioned. But, I have found AAM community comments to be overall respectful, thoughtful, insightful, and intelligent. Especially when compared to other websites. In fact, this is the only website where I read the comments on a regular basis. I have found most other sites (that I have looked at) to be soul-killing, bloviating cesspools of intolerance.

  11. jennyana*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    My husband has been a manager for the last 10 years, at the same company, in a very niche industry (not STEM-related). There is no career growth under his company, so about two years ago he started looking and applying for other different types of jobs. He’s been referred (federal government) and has gotten interviews (private sector) but that is about it. He’s tailored his resumes to fit the job description and written his accomplishments but he hasn’t been able to get another job. He’s very frustrated and thinks that because all of his experience is under one industry (and company) he won’t be able to get another job. He doesn’t know what else to do. We were wondering if a career coach, recruiter, company, etc. would be able to sit down with him and provide some guidance. He doesn’t know if he needs to fix his resumes, what jobs he needs to apply, etc. We live in the DC-MD-VA metro area, so if anyone has any advice about coaches, companies, etc. that do this kind of work that would be great. Or if anyone has any advice about things he could do?

    1. Nita*

      Hi! My husband is also in government and has gone though a similar situation. Nothing worked for two years. The thing that finally got him out, was that he took all the government exams he was eligible for, and got on all the resulting hiring lists. If there’s something similar in your husband’s area, it’s worth a shot. Good luck!!!

      One caveat – we’ve found that one government job is sadly like another in all the worst ways, so he’s exchanged one disfunctional workplace for another. Leaving government work seems like a better idea, but it seems to be even harder than transferring between agencies when you do something specialized.

    2. Specialk9*

      My husband went to a career coach, and her advice was exactly what he needed to hear, bumped him out of a rut. She also gave great resume and cover letter feedback. Worth every penny.

      I also highly recommend Johnson O’Connor Foundation career aptitude testing if someone is trying to figure out the right next career.

      Lastly, any chance you can leave DC? I found that when I opened up my search radius, my 3-year-stalled job search got fixed in startling time. I didn’t have spouse or kids, though, so I know that can be limiting.

    3. lahallita*

      Research some professional organizations in either his current or desired industry/company and network! I know that NCMA has loads of networking events. I’m trying to remember the association my Mom is involved in that has “ready to work” events…
      Does he have any previous co-workers or supervisors he could get in touch with for an informational interview about their new organizations? Tailoring his approach to one or two companies/industries may help get some momentum.

    4. Nearly a Fed*

      Eh, I don’t necessarily agree with Nita, I work for a government agency (contractor for 10 years just switching to civil servant), and I love it. Not all government agencies are created equal and it seems very dependent on specific mangers/executives. In the DMV, there are a plethora of government offices so hopefully there are some good ones with some options for your husband.

      Anyway, I thought I’d include some info that was really helpful to me when I was applying for government jobs. This is based on only two agencies, and while that’s not a great representation, my guess is that all of the federal hiring practices are driven by OPM guidelines and so are similar across agencies.

      Essentially, it seems that you have to pass a word match algorithm that does the initial resume screen to get your resume “certified” and have it sent to the hiring manager. If your husband is not getting past the resume screen stage, then he can’t be considered for the position. Typically if you don’t pass you’ll get a rejection email with this kind of wording: “We reviewed your resume against the competencies established for this position and determined that you did not meet the specialized experience as outlined in the vacancy announcement.” You can call/email HR and ask them specifically why you were determined to not meet the vacancy requirements and they have to tell you. Often, you simply haven’t used the “key words” from the announcement enough. The key words should be obvious because they are repeated several times. The coaching I received was to essentially copy and paste the job posting into your resume (and modify as needed to make sense) and repeat the obvious key words several times. It took me three times to pass certification. If you do pass the certification then your resume will be ranked against others who also passed (based on frequency of key words), so more is better. Usually only the top 5 or so resumes get passed to the hiring manager.

      Another thing to note, and I don’t know if this would be relevant to the field your husband is applying for, but veterans get preference. When my husband was hiring within his former government agency in DC, the top 5 resumes that he’d get from HR were all veterans that knew how to get through the resume screening and then were given veterans preference. The frustrating part was that none of them had the (highly) technical qualifications required for the job, and while my husband knew that technically qualified, non-veterans had applied, they weren’t in the list of 5 resumes sent by HR and he couldn’t even look at/consider them.

      And to be clear, in case anyone thinks I am criticizing the veterans (or disability) preferences in the hiring process, I’m not. The problem is that a real person doesn’t actually look at the submitted resumes and compare them to the needed skills until after the algorithm word match and ranking process, which means highly qualified people get rejected and unqualified people get recommended all the time.

      Hope that’s helpful!

      2. Basia, also a Fed*

        I agree with everything in Nearly a Fed’s post for anyone interested in working for the federal government! In jennyana’s case, though, she said her husband has been referred for government jobs, which I interpret to mean he’s already passing the certs.

        1. Nearly a Fed*

          Could be – it wasn’t clear to me if she meant “referred” by a friend:colleague/acquaintance, or “referred” by HR to hiring managers for jobs. If the latter then he’s cracked the resume certification code, and that’s great! Sometimes (frequently) positions just don’t end up getting filled too.

          1. jennyana*

            Thank you so much for the advice Nearly a Fed! He gets the “Referred” notification from usajobs. but that is a far as he’s gotten in the process.

    5. jennyana*

      Thank you so much for the advice everyone! Hopefully my husband will find a different job soon. There seem to be a lot of options for entry-level jobs, but not as much for mid-career.

  12. Casual Friday*

    I love casual Friday, but I keep getting called for interviews on Friday and showing up late at work (or coming back from a long lunch) overdressed. How many more excuses can I make up that don’t scream “I had an interview!”?

    1. Casual Friday*

      I’ve already used the “Oh it’s Friday already?”, “I haven’t done laundry lately so I have no clean jeans” excuses too many times. Happily married so can’t pretent I have a date after work. Making up funerals seems too morbid.

      1. Squeeble*

        You could say you’re heading to a fancy event after work, though that might lead people to ask what it is and then you’d have to come up with something else.

      2. Casual Friday*

        Specifically, it’s the black dress pants causing trouble. I wear a top that could go either way and stash the jacket in my car before I go to the office (stopping to change somewhere risks me getting spotted by a colleague actually out for lunch and taking more time than I should and looking even more suspicious). Shoes are nice flats and I never wear dresses or skirts even on days I have to dress up.

        Apparently it’s really noticeable because I always get asked why I’m overdressed! I might try switching to other shoes. I do find it odd that places I apply always want to offer Friday interview slots but I don’t want to be difficult with them.

        2. Hello...ello...ello..ello..llo..llo..lo*

          Other than a quick change in the car (not the best option for many reasons) I’m not sure what else you can do.

        3. SoCalHR*

          In addition to my comment below, if you are actively interviewing right now just stop doing ‘casual friday’ in general and keep your same mode of dress whether or not you have an interview. At some point people will just think “oh Jane doesn’t do casual friday” rather than “Jane must have an interview”

        4. Hangry*

          So you’ve got the dressed-down shirt sans jacket, so swap your flats for loafers or keds or athletic shoes, then when someone asks about your fancy pants, just say, “IKR? It turns out these are the most comfortable pants I own! Maybe it’s the Lycra…”

        5. Natalie*

          When I worked in an always-jeans office, I would tuck my suit pants in my purse (rolled up to prevent wrinkling). Jeans + suit jacket didn’t raise any eyebrows and it was easy to change my pants before the interview. A very nice interviewer even offered their bathroom to change back once.

        6. Jennifer Thneed*

          You don’t have to accept the time slot offered. They don’t know if it’s good or bad for you, they just know it’s good for them.

          I just advised my spouse to do this with a doctor’s appointment, where they offered 8am and she felt somewhat obliged to accept it, even though normally she’s fast asleep at that time. She felt awkward and I finally said, If you turn down the appointment, you leave the time slot open for someone who really doesn’t have other options. That worked for her. Would it work for you?

          Obvs, you might not want to do this at all, but you can totally say, “That’s not great for me. I can do it but I wonder if Monday at 3pm would work for you?” (subbing in whatever your better time would be.) And remember, the interview goes both ways, so if you get a bad reaction to the question, that’s useful information about the company (or just that particular person).

        7. Someone else*

          If it weren’t Friday, would you also seem overdressed? Or would your interview outfit be more in line with something you’d normally wear a different day of the week? If the latter, I would repeat ad nauseam “I totally thought it was Thursday when I got up today.”

        9. Close Bracket*

          Do your interview shirts accommodate a tank top or slim fit t-shirt underneath? Wear a t or tank with a cardigan or fleece to work. That will dress down the pants. You can stash your interview shirt in the car with your jacket.

      4. another Liz*

        Married couples have date nights. You could say that you and your spouse have made a new year resolution to spend more time doing couples things. Therefore, “I have a hot date with the hubs tonight” could totally be a thing.

    2. Monsters of Men*

      Is there any way you can change before coming back? Even pulling over into a McDonald’s fast?

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      Sounds like you may need to forego Casual Friday on days you aren’t interviewing.

      Maybe you can find an outfit that lets you shed the more formal aspects (like, for men that would be the suit jacket), or find somewhere to change?

      Good luck with your interviews!

    5. Kitten*

      Can your interview gear be dressed down once you’re done with the interview?

      I’m a girl and tend towards smart dresses, but little things like taking my hair down, changing my shoes to flats, and wearing a cardigan instead of my jacket tend to make me blend a little more.

      For men, I think shedding the jacket, losing the tie and undoing a few buttons, and either having a jumper to throw on (or perhaps rolling your sleeves up a little in summer) might stop you standing out so much.

      Or just style it out and pretend you have something super cool and mysterious to do immediately after work (a date, a smart 6PM social do)!

    6. k.k*

      I’m guessing there is not a good way for you to change before returning to work or you’d be doing that. If you can’t fully change, can you switch out a few pieces to tone down your outfit? Like have a casual shirt under your interview gear so you can take off the top layer, switch to casual shoes, etc. If you’re driving to work it would be easy to store some quick change items in your car; if you’re not driving it’s harder but you might still be able to keep something in your bag. If you’re just removing a layer, you can just carry that in and discreetly stash it at your desk.

    7. tink*

      My partner’s excuse (and the truth, for him at least) is “Oh, I know this is nicer than we have to wear, but it’s my preference/is comfortable/what I still had clean/etc.”

    9. Casual Friday*

      Hmm I might just consider forgoing casual Friday until I get the right offer and pretend my dress pants are super comfy. The pants are what lead to the questioning.

      Or – I did try the event after work thing once, maybe I can pretend all my friends have regular dinner parties.

      I would much rather get a good non-lowball offer from one of my interviewers and move on already though!

      1. DDJ*

        I think this is your best option! And shouldn’t lead to much questioning, because once you tell a person, they probably won’t ask again.

        For me, I actually forego casual Friday most days through the winter because it’s -30 right now and I find that jeans always feel so much colder against my skin. If you’re in a cold climate, you could use that one.

    10. a girl has no name*

      I recently had to do this, and I changed in my car in the back of the empty parking lot of a nearby store and then drove back to work. I don’t know if this will help or not.

    11. crookedfinger*

      I try to mix casual with interview clothes, like a casual-ish shirt with jewelry and my regular work pants + blazer, then remove the blazer before work so I just look business casual. Or you can just lie. I’ve used the “it’s laundry day” one in the past.

      Nowadays, when people ask why I’m not wearing jeans on Friday, I tell them I want to buck the trend of casualness overtaking society…and then tell them that I was only joking, I simply don’t like jeans and don’t own any (which is the actual truth)

    12. SoCalHR*

      The main difference between my business look and casual Friday look is typically just trousers to jeans (I typically still wear a nice shirt and nice shoes on fridays – not the complete jeans-tshirt-and tennis shoes that some people do). So I would just quickly change into jeans in my car before returning to the office. And as one person said, switch out the blazer for a cardigan if you’re wearing that.

      1. DrowninginTestosterone*

        Our work dress is whatever no matter how awful.(that’s it’s own issue!!) Weird tho it is, when I dress up and am asked my go to answer is always “I’m tired of having nice things staring at me from the closet, they’re meant to be worn!” No ones ever questioned it. Occasionally I just say “Cause I felt like it”. I do it often enough my coworkers have accepted it as one of my quirks.
        Hope this helps!

    13. Sunflower*

      If you can’t change, can you say you had a meeting (maybe at an association you belong to) or that you have something after work that requires you to be dressed more formally?

      I would just try to change if you have a restroom or something in your lobby though.

    14. cactus lady*

      I have used, “I haven’t fit into this in a year! I didn’t realize I’d lost weight and was so excited I just had to wear it.”
      I also make it a policy to randomly dress up more than usual at least once a week, then it just becomes normal for me in other people’s eyes.

  13. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

    So I’ve been working in a temp position for a month and a half, but I’ve continued to job search lightly because I would prefer full time employment. I had a company reach out to me at the end of last week, we had a short call yesterday morning, and I have an interview next Thursday at 5.

    My question is that even if I don’t get this job, how do I give my resignation to this position? I work for a temp agency, but I was hired by the temp agency for just this position. So do I tell my manager at the office I’m working in or the temp agency manager that I am leaving first? Also is there anything that I should put into my notice specifically? The other places I’ve resigned it’s been with managers I know well who were happy for me. But with this temp position idk if they will have me work my two week period or not.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t think it matters who you notify first, but you should notify both the onsite supervisor and the temp agency at roughly the same time.

    2. SansaStark*

      When I was working for a temp agency, I think I had all communication go through the temp agency so I’d resign to them. You could tell your boss at the company you’re temping for after you turn in your resignation to the temp company if you wanted. My resignation letters are always super short – giving the effective date and saying it was a pleasure working with them and I wish the organization success in all its future endeavors or something.

    3. Xarcady*

      In your shoes, I’d notify the temp agency first–they are your employer. Then ask them to hold off contacting the place where you work for a day, so you can inform your immediate supervisor.

      That’s if you feel comfortable telling your immediate supervisor. You can also let the temp agency notify everyone and just stay out of it at the company where you are working. The temp agency might also be able to advise you on giving 2 weeks notice or not. If they’ve worked with the client company before, they might know how that’s going to go.

    4. Red Reader*

      I told the temp agency first. They told me that they’d let my manager know and I didn’t have to say anything myself if I didn’t want to, but I’d been working for her for six months, so I wanted to pass it along personally.

      I expected her to go “Aw, good for (new org), bad for us, have a nice life.” What she actually said was, “What if I can get your resume in the hands of someone who can beat (new org)’s offer?” And they did. And I’m now in management at the original org, and have been for two years. :) Never underestimate the value of a personal word!

    5. Sunflower*

      Definitely tell the temp agency and ask them how to proceed. A lot of agencies prefer to be the buffer between you and client and they may have a certain way they want to go about telling your manager at the office, especially if they are able to quickly fill the position.

    6. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      @Job Searching in Jacksonville: Yes, definitely tell your agency first as they are your employer. Then tell your manager at the company you are working for. As for how long you should work at the contract company after you tell them you are leaving is something you’ll want to discuss with your agency.

    7. Wendy Ann*

      Do you have an end date for your temp position? Depending on how long the contract has left, you could always ask your new job if you could start afterwards. When I had this issue, I would tell the interviewer “I’m currently in a temp position until the end of February (or whenever), but I know the company would be agreeable to me finishing earlier for the opportunity of the permanent position.”

      I would tell the temp agency first since they are your employer, but I don’t see anything wrong with giving your supervisor at the current company a head’s up that you’ve given notice.

      1. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

        As far as I know, my contract doesn’t have an end date. It’s totally open ended unfortunately. I am just going to tell interviewers that I am working on a short term contract and I can give notice at any time. However, I’m gonna steal part of your verbiage about my employers understanding of I leave for a permanent position. The contract job just isn’t a good fit, so I’m gonna definitely mention that as why I’m leaving if asked.

    8. Jennifer Thneed*

      Whenever you do tell your on-site manager, also tell them that you have notified the agency, but you wanted to tell them in person because you like working with them (or other good thing).

      Basically, don’t leave anyone wondering.

  14. peachie*

    Preliminary phone interview today! It’s for a position that would be in a new field for me. It’s not totally out of line with what I’ve done, just much a much more technical official IT position (I’ve done a lot of self-learning as a part of my current job, but it’s not an IT role). It’s also several states away from where I am. I had not planned on moving for at least a few years, but this opportunity came up and it was too good to let it pass without at least trying.

    There are a few things I’d love AAM’s take on. Some of these probably won’t come up today, but they’re bouncing around in my head so feedback would be appreciated.

    1. How much room do you have to negotiate the start date with a position that requires significant relocation? The standard two weeks would be really, really difficult–I’d have to find a subletter, find a new place, pack up and clean the old place, possibly rent a storage facility, hire movers, get a moving truck, and haul my stuff 5 hours up the coast. It stresses me out just thinking about it! What generally happens in these situations, and what’s it reasonable to ask for?

    2. On that note, how frequently are relocation bonuses offered and how normal is it to ask for them? I imagine this is contingent on the level of the position (this would be a step up from entry level IT role).

    3. Has anyone made the switch from not-officially-IT to an actual IT career? How did that go for you and what did you do to get there? I can’t help feeling I’m a very unusual candidate; my background and education is in theater and history, and I’ve never taken an official IT course–I just fell into it and found I really enjoyed data science.

    I’m so glad it’s on a Friday afternoon so I can get the opinion of everyone here! Y’all are so smart and helpful.

    1. peachie*

      Also–what’s the best way to address non-professional experience? I’m very self-taught but I do have the skills I claim to have on my resume. This is mostly through online courses, working through practice projects, and, oddly enough, assistance from my mother. (She’s an expert in exactly the same field, and I’m beginning to subcontract for her, doing reports for her clients which she then reviews and deploys.)

    2. Yorick*

      You should always ask for relocation! You can start the conversation with a question like “does Company provide any coverage for relocation?”

    3. CAA*

      1. Start date — for most companies it would not be a problem to say that since you have to give notice and relocate, you would not be able to start for 4 weeks. But as per the letter earlier this week, do have the conversation as part of the interview, not after the offer is accepted.

      2. Relocation expense reimbursement (you don’t want to call that a bonus) may or may not be offered. It is more likely if they are hiring you because you have a hard-to-find skill. It’s fine to ask if they are able to pay relocation expenses, but if they say no, then accept that with good grace. Also, assuming you are in the U.S, the tax bills had some changes about how these reimbursements are taxed on both the corporate and employee sides. I haven’t checked to see which of the provisions they were voting on made it into the final law but this might be something worth googling, just so you know what to expect.

      3. You would probably be shocked at the number of people working in IT and IT-related professions that don’t have STEM degrees! I’ve hired people with degrees in history, philosophy, languistics, dance, etc. It’s really not that unusual.

      On the relocation logistics, if timing becomes an issue, can you put your stuff in a storage unit and move on a weekend sometime after you start the new job? If it’s only a 5 hour drive, that’s a pretty short flight back and forth and you could commute on Friday and Sunday for a while, maybe even stay someplace like a Residence Inn while you look for an apartment in the evenings. I am not suggesting this would be easy or cheap, but if it makes the difference between being able to take the job and not, you could consider it.

      1. peachie*

        Thank you, this is so helpful!

        RE 2: That’s good information to have–I didn’t know about the tax thing. Also not calling it a bonus, haha. Good call.

        RE 3: That makes me feel much better. I never would have thought I’d be interested in this, but now that I am, I was nervous that there wouldn’t really be a way to get involved with no professional experience to speak of.

        RE timing: That is something I’m thinking of. I honestly don’t know what I would do if I got an offer and had to start in two weeks. Money is an issue for me right now, and I would be anxious about committing to 2x rent without a subletter. I do have family nearby, though; we’re not terribly close, but I might be able to stay with them for a little bit. I know I’m getting so many steps ahead of myself, but it’s stressful!

      2. Jules the Third*

        heh – I have worked for a decade with someone who is my liaison with engineering. I never knew he had a degree in theater until last week. I thought he was some comp sci / engineering variant.

    4. Anonyme*

      In terms of relocation, I moved from Northern Canada to the East Coast a year ago for work. I said I wanted to be able to give 4 weeks notice since my previous employer was remote and had trouble hiring, and that I could make the physical move in a further 2 weeks (driving) for a total of 6 weeks. They offered 8 since I had to drive across Canada in the Winter.

    5. JHunz*

      1) A lot of this is going to vary based on how badly they need somebody in the position. I also wouldn’t try to negotiate more than a month if it’s not a senior role. I’ve made a multi-hour move in two weeks, but it was an amazingly busy and stressful two weeks so wanting more is completely reasonable.

      2) Relocation expenses are more likely if the role is more senior, if the position is with a company that’s in a tech hub and offers it as a standard part of the hiring process, if you’re an exceptional candidate they don’t want to lose. But it’s always something that you can ask for in the negotiating process if you get that far. Just be aware that most companies offering you relocation expenses will also require you to spend X amount of time with the company or pay them back, where X is anything between 1 and 2 years.

      3) I can’t help you with this one but I know multiple people that have switched to IT from other careers or from completely different academic pursuits. I think it’s probably one of the fields where that is most common.

    6. AshK434*

      1. I’ve moved quite a few times for jobs and each time every employer has been super understanding that you might not be able to start within two weeks. In my experience, most assumed I would need longer than two weeks and were super surprised that I didn’t.

      2. I honestly wouldn’t expect relocation assistance, especially since this is not a high level position.

    7. Jennifer Thneed*

      Two weeks is the cultural agreement, but it’s not set in stone, and really it’s for when you aren’t moving at all, but only changing workplaces.

      This is what I would do: “As you know, I’ll be moving from (distant city). What is your usual expectation for start dates in this situation?” That’s how you find out if they even have thought about this.

      And it’s pretty common to be offered a job with a start date that’s arbitrary, like they always start people on the 5th, or only on every other Monday. Getting something that says “Your first day will be 2 weeks after we receive your reply” would be odd.

  15. Ms. Meow*

    How long did it *actually* take you to find a job, in context of your degree and career experience?

    You always hear the estimates of 3, 6, 9, or 12 months based on your career experience, but I wanted to see what people actually experienced. I have a PhD in a STEM field at the beginning of my career, so I figure I’ll fall into the 6 month category. Though, it only took me 4 months to find this current job. The timing is somewhat important for me since my partner is a teacher, and it would be crazy beneficial if we could transition to new jobs over the summer.

    1. ThatGirl*

      It took me about four months to find my first job out of college, but that overlapped with finishing school… maybe five to find my next one, about 7 months of under/unemployment to find my next one (that was 2007-2008), and 4.5 to find my current one.

    2. Kerrianne*

      A lot of people in my field (also STEM) get jobs as part of graduate programs (both undergraduate and postgraduates), applications for those open at the start of the penultimate year of the degree, and offers typically come around 6 months before graduation. Many people secure offers before graduating. Obviously not everyone does, but I don’t know how much time it would take to find employment via the non-grad program route.

    3. Collie*

      I was in a parapro job in my field while going to school (I started the job about two months after I started my master’s). I graduated in May 2016 and had an offer for a professional job in my field in May 2017 (though I applied in August 2016 and interviewed in early March 2017), so about a year.

      1. ContentWrangler*

        It took me less than a month to find a job out of college. However it was a contract job. I ended up having to go from contract job to contract job with some freelancing thrown in for quite awhile. I got hired where I now work (first “permanent” job) almost exactly one year after my graduation. (Graduation was May 16, 2016, began the internship which transitioned to perm on May 15, 2017)

        1. ContentWrangler*

          Forgot about the context of my degree – I got my bachelor’s in English:Creative Writing with a minor in Journalism

    4. Lynca*

      Mine was a little over 6 months to get a job in my STEM field with a bachelor’s. May have been more like 7.

    5. Vitamin C*

      PhD in STEM – I had two job offers about four months prior to graduation (although it took about six weeks after graduation for the paperwork to go through). I’m in the US in kind of a niche field, which I’m sure helped my job prospects.

    6. Rachel in Minneapolis*

      Totally different field from you, but might be helpful for other readers:
      Non-profit sphere
      3 months until offer; 4 months from last day at old job to first day at new job.
      I’ve transitioned 3 times now and had a similar experience each time.

    7. CatCat*

      I graduated law school during the height of the recession. I had nothing lined up upon graduation in May, along with most of my peers. I started a new job at the beginning of January following graduation and passing the bar. I had very few interviews and was not being choosy. For the job I ended up getting, as I recall, I had an interview (via phone) in early November. They offered me the job about mid-December. The job was term limited (7 months, though it ended up getting extended quite a bit longer than that) and 2,800 miles from where I lived. I took it and felt very fortunate and grateful for that opportunity. My next job (looking to relocate back to where I had come from) took about 6 months to get (cross country job search is a challenge and economy, while improving, was still not great). My next job after that was an internal move and happened pretty quickly, like a month. My next job after that… probably 4–ish months with me being very choosy.

      1. Dankar*

        My partner is in a similar situation right now (no job after JD, we relocated after both of us graduated for my job, he’s passed the bar and is taking the MPRE in March).

        Do you mind if I ask what your first position ended up being? He’s not having luck with clerkships and we’re both at a loss as to what entry-level positions he should be looking for.

        1. NacSacJack*

          I know two lawyers who were are doing paralegal/document reviewing work and driving pizzas to make ends meet.

        2. CatCat*

          I ended up working in government. Someone I had worked with before was working there and suggested that I apply so I had kind of an “in” that way. If he has any contacts, I’d suggest doing informational interviews for guidance on how/what positions to target in New City.

          Having seen other alums come through that city, I relocated to, I’d say working with the alumni network can be really helpful. If there is a local alumni chapter, join it and go to events. If not, work with the school’s alumni office to help you make connections. It’s not so much in a asking people for jobs way, but asking people for guidance way. So if you have an Alumni Contact, it’s certainly fine to say that you’re a recent grad, looking for work, passed the bar but still needing MPRE, just really getting your career started, and does Alumni Contact have any advice for you in this early stage of a legal career in New City?

    8. Penny*

      Probably about 3-4 months for my current job (from the date I started applying to the date I accepted an offer). I feel like that’s standard in my industry. There’s a lot of turnover so there’s almost always jobs available.

    9. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m also a recent STEM PhD. I hit the job market “for real” around Thanksgiving, applied to 18 places, yielding 6 phone screens, 4 onsite interviews (all in the second half of December), and got a job offer by Christmas. I have good credentials, am in a marketable field, and live in a tech hub, but also have significant liabilities (my PhD wasn’t really on the marketable stuff in my field, though I can spin this somewhat, and I’m also not on speaking terms with my advisor).

      It really does depend on your field, particularly how specialized you are. If you have your heart set on being a llama groomer, and there are only four llama farms in your country that MIGHT need a new groomer this year…you’ll be waiting around to apply for those jobs, and it’ll take as long as it takes.

    10. too personal for normal handle*

      I just switched jobs, started new one mid December. Decided that I needed a new job in early June last year. Due to buying a house and industry timing, started looking in mid Sept. Kept search part time. Multiple interviews late October and into November. Accepted a position, pending background check, mid November. Gave notice Monday after Thanksgiving, last day 12/8.

      Chicago area. I’m an auditor with 10 years experience in external & internal audit, non mgmt by choice. There are not many people like me – the nature of the industry is move up or move out. Those in my position are either really bad at their jobs and haven’t been fired or really good at their jobs and happy with the role. The latter group has a tendency to stay put for a long time. We’re not in it for advancement, so as long as we’re happy and interested, not much incentive to move.

      My industry in general hires year round, but higher volumes in the fall/winter. Searches are also heavily recruiter based. You don’t have to work with recruiters, but it’s easier. You get better results working with multiple recruiters. I had contacts with 10 different companies by the time I wrapped up my search. About half those were duds for various reasons.

    11. Overeducated*

      10 months with a new social science PhD, but I turned down offers at 1 month and 4 months because they didn’t work for me financially and personally.

    13. Justin*

      8 months after college (but that was a long time ago…), 6 months after grad school. Current job took a long, slow, already-employed search for the right fit, once I found it it was a month from application to hire.

    14. grace*

      It took me about 3-4 months, but I started hunting while finishing up my Bachelor’s (in Political Science). My offer came three days before graduation and I started the Monday after, lol. Most of my friends got jobs around the same time – some got a longer chunk of time before starting – but others went on to grad school. I couldn’t fathom not making an income OR having to do a thesis AGAIN so I went the job route. :)

    15. kas*

      It took me about two years but that was more of my own doing. I wasn’t ready to jump into my career after college so I took a break. I worked full-time but not in a related field. It took me about a year of actually searching before I landed something in my field.

    16. ThursdaysGeek*

      I got a BS in Comp Sci in 1985. I got my first real programming job in 1989, about 4 years later. Since that time I’ve been unemployed twice, and it took 6 and 7 months to find a new job.

      That’s not really helpful to you, but I sure have sympathy and understanding with the people who got their degrees around 2008.

    17. T3k*

      I had a degree in something between graphic arts and print, took me almost exactly a year to get my first job out of college (though I had technically been hunting for one halfway through my senior year). Took 2 months to land next job in similar field (had been unexpectedly laid off from first, so I panicked and took the first thing that came along). Then took almost a year and a half to land the next one (non-related field but one I wanted to get into since college).

    18. JHunz*

      First job out of my CS degree, with no relevant work experience: 2 months, and it wasn’t exactly what I was looking for. But it turned out to be a great company.
      Second job, 4 years work experience: 1.5 weeks because I had an inside hookup, and also because the company I moved to turned out to be a churn&burn place with horrible turnover that was pretty much always hiring at that level.
      Third job, 5 years work experience: Almost exactly 1 month.

    19. CheeryO*

      About six months with a STEM B.S. and M.S., in 2014. That was about typical for our field at the time. I think things have picked up a bit since then, although I’d still expect it to take time, especially if you’re being choosy.

    20. Elizabeth West*

      The last two times I was unemployed (2005 and 2012), it took me a year. Well, 2005 was over a year but I was able to temp during that time.

      This time, it’s over a year. I think that’s a result of there not being enough jobs in the area I’m qualified for, however. It seems to be either over or under. Temping has gone bust for me too–most of the jobs on offer require some kind of accounting or budget work. They’ve changed a lot from 2005, when they were more compartmentalized. During and after the recession, companies combined a lot of duties into one position. For example, instead of having a receptionist AND an accounting assistant, especially in smaller businesses, they changed it to Administrative Assistant and one person does all of it.

    21. LAI*

      I work in higher education and I typically find it’s about 4-6 months for me. And I’m starting the count from when I actually apply for a job, not when I start looking (because there might be weeks or months of me just checking out job postings but not actually seeing anything I want to apply for).

    22. Natalie*

      First job: about 3 months, but that was right at the beginning of the Great Recession so I literally accepted the first job that offered me a full time salary and benefits. No idea what I wanted to do and I didn’t have a “career oriented” degree. Due in part to the recession I stayed at that company for a long time

      Second job: Took about nine months, with two caveats. I had finally focused on a career but now had a very non-traditional background for it, and I wasn’t looking very actively because I was still taking classes and planning a wedding.

      Current job: About 3 weeks. I’ve filled in some of the gaps so that I’m an easier to understand candidate for my field, and I got lucky.

    23. it_guy*

      It took me about 3 months to find one straight out of college. After that though, he rough rule-of-thumb (that I heard) is 1 week for every year of your experience.

    24. NeverGoingToFindAHome*

      Finished my master’s about 8 months ago. Started seriously looking about 6 or 7 months ago. Finally started getting some interviews a couple weeks ago, but still no job…I came straight from undergrad though, so I only really have summer work experience (somewhat related to my field) and research jobs during my degree on my resume. Here’s hoping the new year brings some more luck.

    25. miyeritari*

      From the time I started seriously job searching – not just kind of blah I’m bored job searching – it took me about 3-6 months to find most of my jobs, and 8 months to find a job after I’d been fired from a weird reason that I couldn’t explain in a decent way.

      I’ve definitely found it’s easier to get a job when you have a job (3x), and even easier to get a job in a similiar field when you have a job in that field (2/3).

    26. Nye*

      If you’re looking in academia, 6-12 months is pretty standard. Part of that is waiting for something appropriate to open up in a decent location, plus the hiring process tends to take longer overall.

    28. Fortitude Jones*

      I graduated in 2009 with a BA in journalism, didn’t want to be a full-time journalist (and even if I did, those jobs were few and far between), so it took me almost 12 months after graduating to get a job in an unrelated field (and it was a temp job at a for-profit school). My next job after this one (at a law firm) was also unrelated to my degree and took me a month to get after being let go from the first job. My next job was in insurance and it took me 23 months to get it (I job searched while employed with the law firm and took my sweet time to try and find a better fit so as not to end up in another toxic environment). I’m finally in a job that’s related to my degree, and it took me seven months from the time I started seriously looking for postings that were specifically asking for my degree as a requirement to find it. Then it only took three weeks from the time I applied to when I received an offer.

    29. Close Bracket*

      When I graduated (PhD, Physics), it took a few months of on campus job fairs. I had a number of interviews, but only one offer.

      2011-2012, I wanted to leave the job I was in. I applied to over 200 jobs, a handful of interviews, no offers.

  16. Anon round the world*

    So I’m just 2 months out from my short term contract ending and having a one on one conversation with my boss today. I’m nervous as I plan to ask during this meeting if they’re going to extend my contract or not, as I’d love to stay here if at all possible, though understandably they might not (I do know they’re interviewing people for the same position, but as there’s 3 of us, all with contracts ending soon, I can’t tell if it’s one of our positions or a new one). Hopefully I get some good news *crosses fingers*

  17. Brooklyn Nine Eight*

    I’m 99% sure I know the answer but is it ever ok to try and find out why someone was fired? It was announced this week that a long-time employee of my 150 person organization was fired. They will be hiring for the same position so it’s not a redundancy issue. This person had been here over a decade and did a lot of small things that kept us running (although I think that responsibility went a little bit to their head but nothing egregious). I will fully admit part of the reason why I want to know is because it was so surprising but I’m also freaking out about my own position now since this firing does not make any logical sense. I’m planning on checking with my manager if there are any concerns about my performance at our next meeting (nothing has been brought up in the past). I do think that the answer is it’s none of my business though.

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      It’s okay to check with your manager about your own performance (within reason, not every five minutes, which you aren’t doing. Worry not!). The conversation should be, “what about my performance needs improvement, and how can I do that?” Also, throw in, “What about my performance is good, and I should continue?” Both should be normal conversation topics and aren’t out of line.

      I would not ask about why the other employee was fired. It isn’t really any of your business. To turn the tables, think if you were fired. Would you want management that fired you to tell anyone that asked why you were fired? Likely not, which is why it’s not appropriate for you to ask.

    2. k.k*

      It’s none of you’re business, but I’m sure you’re not the only one who wants to know. Anywhere I’ve worked when someone is let go, there is always gossip and people end up finding out the details. It’s nothing I would ask your boss about, but no one would blame you for partaking in a little water cooler chat about it.

      1. Archie Goodwin*

        I’ve brought this up in comments here before, but what I did in a similar situation once (employee whom I saw rarely – she sat on the other side of the floor from my desk – was suddenly let go) was to go to my manager and ask him, “I know you can’t tell me why she was fired, but is there anything I’m doing that might be of a concern?” Which was all I wanted to know, really…I wanted to make sure I wasn’t unknowingly doing the same thing. He said no, and there it was.

        I found out about a year later, after that contract ended, what exactly HAD transpired, and it was true…nothing that I needed to be concerned about.

        Any other curiosity, I find, can usually be satisfied by the office grapevine after a delay.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve asked bosses about strange firings and I’m given a high level scenario about it. I won’t get details, but I’ll be told if there was a disciplinary or performance issue. Usually it is followed with a reassurance that they were given time to improve.

    4. WG*

      Does your company have an employee handbook or guidelines that address how performance issues are handled? In many companies, there are steps that are taken when performance isn’t up to standards that allow an employee the opportunity to improve their performance before it gets to the termination stage. The fact that these steps are occuring may not be obvious to other employees in the company.

      Knowing what your company’s policy and process is could help alleviate your concern about your own situation.

    5. Anon for this*

      We had a similar situation at my job a year or two ago where a highly-regarded employee was fired and a bunch of people got really nervous about it because she was always seen as an integral part of the team and a top performer. My manager had confided the reason for it to me and it was an insane melodrama of sketchy-bordering-on-illegal personal behavior from the employee towards another employee as well as my manager that had nothing to do with her actual job performance. Management wasn’t allowed to say anything about it to the team at large for legal reasons I guess (nothing that happened could be proved).

      I don’t know what the situation is with your company but there’s any number of reasons your coworker might have been let go! I don’t think asking for a reason is going to get you anywhere but I think if you’re feeling nervous it would be ok to say something to your manager along the lines of “Zelda being let go has made me feel a bit worried about my own job security as I’ve always seen her as a high performer. Is there anything about my performance that you feel I need to work on?” Hopefully they’ll be able to reassure you that you’re fine.

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I did some discreet fishing when someone I had helped train was fired — not because I wanted to be gossipy or wanted “the dirt” but because I wanted reassurance that it wasn’t anything relating to how I’d trained her that resulted in her getting fired.

      Since we were all getting laid off, I got a lot more information than I’d actually been expecting, and it was pretty amazing stuff. Definitely not my training!

    7. NW Mossy*

      Your situation is part of why Alison recommends that managers talk about how performance management works at their organization. There’s always that moment of panic after someone’s fired where you think “Am I next?”, but making sure employees know the structure of the process can help to allay that. Knowing the process makes it easy for people to say to themselves “I know that process isn’t happening to me right now, so I’m OK.”

      In my organization, performance-based firings are generally the end of a months-to-years-long process of coaching and intensive management. Sudden firings are reserved for situations where someone’s done something so egregious/illegal that we can’t reasonably allow them to continue employment, which would be things like harassment, violence (threats or actual), and theft.

    8. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I’m super late to the party but I agree that framing it in a “hey how’s my performance” way can be very helpful, and your manager will probably be able to read between the lines.

      This actually happened to me – I was hired at the same time as another person and they were suddenly let go about a month in, for apparently no reason. I got nervous and asked how I was doing, and my manager was instantly “Don’t worry, Fergus did [something super egregious], so as long as you don’t do [the super egregious thing that I could not fathom a sane human being doing] you’ll be fine.”

      Not that your boss should tell you why someone was fired, but they’ll understand your nervousness and be able to address that.

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    So….I thought the worst thing that happened to me this week was me being sick and leaving office early on Monday and my boss making a slight dig that I always leave when my manager isn’t there. Or that my bronchitis turned into laryngitis with a super unpleasant side effect of the stomach variety, so I have trouble speaking.

    But then I get the call and 30 Seconds in, my worst nightmare came true. So I rushed out of work, take the uber, get on the first intl flight to see my father one last time before they bury him.

    I quit my second job and I might have to quit my regular one too. I have no idea how long I’ll be here and if I even do go back to work…no idea how I’ll get back to normal.

    3. The Person from the Resume*

      Oh, no. I’m sorry for your loss. Sympathies for the loss of your father and the turmoil in your life at the moment.

    5. SansaStark*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope your employer is sympathetic and understanding at this hard time.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I hope so. My boss even wrote “do not worry about work etc” & gave her condolences so that was nice of her. I might have to use FMLA, idk. I’m not worried but idk how I’ll get back to normal.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Don’t worry about getting back to normal right now. That’s something to tackle later.

    7. De Minimis*

      I’m so sorry. We went through this with my wife’s father, it is so hard. My experience has been employers are usually really understanding about bereavement, especially for a parent. I am hoping for the best for you.

    13. M*

      I’m so sorry. Take it one hour and then one day at a time, take as much time as you need, and know that most employers will be understanding about why you changed jobs if you end up having to look again. “My father died unexpectedly and I had to travel internationally to deal with his affairs and estate” would have been very reasonable to me when I was hiring if there was a resume gap and if a person isn’t reasonable on that, I think they’d be a terrible boss.

    16. Anono-me*

      I am so sorry you and your family are going through this. I am grateful though that you have the opportunity to get home to see your father.

      You will get through this one moment at a time, one second at a time, whatever it takes. And eventually, you will find your new normal.

    17. KAG*

      I am quitting my job at the end of the month (after a major conference that will introduce a project that I have been working on) for similar reasons – getting chewed out for trying to make it to my father’s bedside before he died and then for being out sick. You are not alone. Others are going through the same BS. Unfortunately, that’s the best comfort I can give, but it helps to know that in the future you’ll likely work with and/or for others who completely get it.

    18. Effie, who is living her life, and hoping life's rollercoaster stops soon*

      I’m so sorry. Please take care.

    19. As Close As Breakfast*

      I am so very sorry for you and your family Nervous Accountant. I lost my mother last summer and my company was wonderful, I hope your company will be the same. Sending you love and hugs and support.

    21. Goya de la Mancha*

      Oh my heart aches for you! Don’t worry about “normal” right now! Focus on your loved ones – normal is just a setting on the washing machine & some semblence of what has been will make itself known eventually.

    22. Cheshire Cat*

      I’m so sorry for your loss; your boss sounds reasonable so give yourself some time before you worry about what comes after.

    26. KAG*

      I just lost my father in October – I got the text that he’d passed when the plane landed (on my way to see him). I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m sure it gets easier, as others have said, but I’m not there yet either. Again, my sympathies and condolences and best wishes that your employer will be reasonable and compassionate (I realized you hadn’t mentioned any pushback in your original post; I guess I was just extrapolating from personal experience).

  19. KatieKate*

    I sent out a lot of resumes 2 weeks ago and am waiting to hear back… I don’t need any advice, just good vibes and reminders to stop checking my email every five minutes! Sending some vibes back to the rest of y’all waiting to hear~~~~

    1. Kitten*

      Good Luck!

      Remember that a lot of people are on Christmas slow down and working their way through inboxes, so don’t give up hope on hearing back. I’m sure some excellent opportunities will appear in your inbox very soon!

      2. KatieKate*

        Thanks!

        And yes, most were sent right after Christmas and I know I’m still sorting through holiday emails. Doesn’t keep my own mind from going wild! xD

  20. overcaffeinatedqueer*

    Does the following message sound sane? I am on a temp/contract basis now but need more money to cover parking from one of the companies I work for, especially as my city is holding the Super Bowl and I work downtown. Costs are going up due to that.

    “I have a request going forward for future projects. If you have flexibility with the clients to do so, (and feel free to CC this, in case you’re not the right person to ask), I would like to get $10 more a day to cover parking costs- because of those costs downtown, my effective pay rate is more like 20.75, not the 22/hr posted, when I am working in English rather than [the foreign language I speak].

    I like working downtown and the people and environment with [redacted]- especially the somewhat more predictable workflow. However, I am not able to be here as often and due to the cost of my commute compared to the pay rate. Let me know if this would be a possibility.”

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think this is better addressed in person, as a discussion. If I read this email and couldn’t pay you any more, I would assume you would be backing out of your assignment/contract. If that’s not the case, then this is a, “Would this be possible?” conversation as opposed to an, “I want this” email.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Rather than asking for extra money flat out, I’d ask if there is a way to have your parking expenses reimbursed.

    3. peachie*

      I think I’d cut the part where you say my effective pay rate is more like 20.75, not the 22/hr posted, when I am working in English rather than [the foreign language I speak] as it’s more detail than I think yiou need (though I could be off base and the reciver would understand the context). You could rephrase that paragraph as “…because the stipend I currently receive no longer covers the increasing parking costs downtown.” (Maybe phrase that better; my brain is a mess today.)

      But yes, it’s certainly sane and a very reasonable request!

    4. TCO*

      In general, your commute costs aren’t your employer’s concern. Some downtown offices (I live in your same city) do provide a parking or transit subsidy but it’s usually less generous for lower-level staff and I wouldn’t expect them to provide that for a contractor. If it’s feasible for your lifestyle and location, one way to save money would be to park and ride from somewhere in the city with ample street parking along the LRT or high-frequency bus routes. But I recognize that that doesn’t work for everyone.

      For Super Bowl week, a lot of employers are being more flexible and I think you could ask whether it’s possible to work offsite or not be assigned downtown during that one week. Transit will still be running as usual, but parking will be tougher.

      1. Yorick*

        It’s easy to get to downtown Mpls with transit, and in my experience the bus and train are reliable. But also ask about working remotely.

      2. Natalie*

        Transit will also be a little tougher as well since it’s being rerouted in a bunch of places and will probably be more crowded. I’m hoping my office will recognize that maybe we don’t need to work Saturday that day, given that it’s literally a once in a lifetime situation. Sigh.

    5. Morticia*

      I don’t think you should be discussing costs. Maybe just raise your hourly rate if you can? If you’re not always downtown, you could maybe suggest that going forward your rate would be 23 or 24/h?

    6. Rachel in Minneapolis*

      Hello fellow Minneapolitan!
      I think most business in the affected downtown district are working on plans for commuting/parking/working offsite during Super Bowl. I know a local college is even taking a week off of classes.
      I suggest asking what the business plans are regarding parking when you get a contact in the Downtown Business district.

    7. Lady By The Lake*

      I also live in Mpls an d parking is generally not reimbursed here. I suggest looking at Park & Ride options.

    8. Triangle Pose*

      No, it does not. This message is not good. Do not send this. Discuss with someone in person about whether it would be possible to get reimbursement for parking costs. Commuting and parking is not a “decrease of your pay rate.” It will seem really out of touch to frame it this way.

      1. DDJ*

        I agree with this. It would be really strange to receive an email like this, since commuting costs are almost never factored into rates (except in special circumstances). I take public transit to work, but if I decided to park downtown instead for $30/day, that wouldn’t be factored into my compensation in any way. Especially as a temporary/contract worker, I think this seems…well, out of touch, like you said.

        If you have a super specialized skillset and are near-impossible to place, there might be an argument to be made for asking for reimbursement for parking. But that’s about the only situation where I could see this as a feasible request.

    9. CatCat*

      No, I don’t think that sounds good. I would ask about other possibilities such as telework. If you are contracting with them directly, you can see about building parking expenses into the reimbursable costs in the future or increasing your rate. If through an agency, talk to them about it (perhaps they could set up a pre-tax parking program? this is pretty popular where I live.)

    10. Joielle*

      No advice, just commiseration! I’m another overcaffeinated queer in Minneapolis :) I don’t work in the downtown core, but I do take the light rail to work, and I’m already mentally preparing myself for what a nightmare that will be.

    11. Anony*

      I think it is better to address that when you get offered another project. That would be the time to negotiate. Doing so now seems off.

    12. Elizabeth H.*

      ” my effective pay rate is more like 20.75, not the 22/hr posted, when I am working in English rather than [the foreign language I speak]”
      I have no idea at all what this means – what does the language you’re working in have to do with the pay rate or even if does, why is it relevant to parking costs? It also doesn’t really make logical sense to conflate parking with the pay rate, even though this is so natural an internal calculation to do. Like others I think this email is too indirect and too wordy.

      As others suggested, why not just say “I’m very happy with the work I have been doing at Company Z, but due to the increased parking costs from the Superbowl it’s becoming increasingly challenging to make it work on my end. Please let me know if it would be possible for my parking costs to be reimbursed for the period of X thru Y (superbowl parking increase period . . . if this is applicable?) on the days I work for Company Z or if there is any other arrangement that we could discuss.”

      If you really feel the need to add some kind of justification you could point out that of course you understood and were ok with the circumstances of the commute/parking/location when you accepted this contract position but that due to the (temporary I assume) Superbowl effect these circumstances have changed substantially enough to affect you such that you want to re-discuss the arrangement for this period.

  21. WhatDo*

    I sent an e-mail to Alison over two months ago, but it’s for something I needed a somewhat quick answer to – I didn’t know about the open threads back then, as I had just discovered the blog. Would it be bad to ask about it here again just so I could have an immediate answer? I really need help with this and I have no idea what to do anymore :/ and the longer I don’t know what to do, the worse my situation gets…

    2. The IT Manager*

      Ask it here. 2 months is beyond the “recent” caveat for the open threads.

      * If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

  22. Question for Former Teachers*

    I’m looking for advice for my husband from any former teachers. My husband (Fergus) is deeply unsatisfied with his job. We moved back to our hometown last summer and he took a job teaching high school (he had previously taught at the university level, but things were getting bad for higher ed in the state and specifically bad at his university and thought that teaching the same subject for high school in our hometown would be something he could deal with—at least we’re home?). Lots of things have added up to make this job pretty terrible. He’s looking to move out of teaching, but has no idea what to do or how to go about turning his teaching experience into relevant experience for other fields. He’s not interested in going back to school (and the hobbies/side gigs he truly wants to get paid for require certifications only offered in another region). He’s applied to be an academic advisor at a local community college since a large part of his work at the university was individual advising but hasn’t heard back.

    If you are a former teacher, what kind(s) of job(s) have you moved on to? What did you find successful to highlight during your job search? Thank you!

    1. Secretary*

      Well I didn’t work in the public school system, but I worked at a piano teacher. I now work in Admin because I wanted something steady with good income so that I could develop other projects outside of work.
      Most admin interviews were glad to have me because I just told them why I was changing fields.

    2. Kate*

      I have a friend who transitioned from teaching high school history to working for a non-profit that trains principals. She’s in a program implementation/training role. That’s a very specific scenario, but thinking along similar lines could be a start.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I am a current teacher but I have left teaching jobs twice before for other careers. The first time, I transitioned to marketing/sales and the second time I went to academic publishing. Teaching has a lot of soft skills (flexibility, public speaking, classroom management) that can be pitched as useful in other fields. I had a friend call me last year to discuss coming to work for his commercial real estate company. His point was: I can teach you the business, but I can’t teach people to be flexible and quick on their feet.

      Best of luck to your husband! I completely understand wanting to leave a terrible teaching job. I hope he finds something soon!

    4. Meg*

      I am a former teacher! For the past year, I have been working for a medical software company as a trainer. More specifically, I train informatics pharmacists on how to configure and maintain our software for their hospitals. Many of the trainers here have a similar background, so it seemed that the company was interested in me specifically because I had instructional and curriculum writing experience.

      I don’t have any job search advice. I applied for this job on a whim and was given an offer very quickly after completing the interview process; I didn’t explore any other companies.

      1. Question for Former Teachers*

        A trainer is an good idea! We’ll add that to his list of job search terms.

    5. Justin*

      I went to work in education management for a nonprofit (and now something that came after that).

      I highlighted what you probably already are, organization, work ethic, and such.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      Well, I’ve got to be honest with you—when I left teaching, it was very difficult finding a non-teaching job, because everything on my résumé screamed “This is a teacher!” But I just kept applying and eventually found something. Had to take a major pay cut (yes, from an already low teaching salary), but I got an office job and eventually meandered my way into IT.

    7. Specialk9*

      I’m not a former teacher, but I’ve staffed lots of projects and work in a mega corp. For a teacher, check out corporate training positions – that’s a pretty easy sell of 1 to 1 skills. More broadly, classroom management can have a lot in common with project management (lesson plans, dealing with people, documentation, keeping everyone on track) so he could look into getting his Project Management Professional. A teacher friend (of religion) found success in managing hospital chaplains, which broadly is project management.

      I mentioned it above, but Johnson O’Connor Foundation has a career aptitude test in big cities. It’s around $600, and is revelatory in lots of ways with both immediate and long term application. It hugely helped my husband and my friend, in career transitions. It gives you both suggested career paths, and why – ie you’re good with building things but executing on a deadline is not a strength, so churning out a bunch of build tasks isn’t going to set you up for success.

      1. Question for Former Teachers*

        Thanks! I’ll suggest the Project Management Certification. I did some digging and the university here offers continuing ed courses that prepare you for the exams and he’d qualify for the alumni discount. I’ll also check out the Johnson O’Connor Foundation. I’ve wondered if there are legitimate ones that are worth taking because he prepared his whole life to be a teacher and it turns out in today’s education climate being a teacher isn’t what he planned for it to be.

          1. Question for Former Teachers*

            I was initially thinking those career tests you take in high school, but an aptitude test like the one you mention seems like it could actually point you in a helpful direction.

    8. LAI*

      Not a former teacher but a current academic advisor and honestly, they are not very much the same at all. Academic advising is its own career track with specialized skills. In my state, you need a masters degree in counseling to even be considered for an academic advising position at a community college. It’s much less strict at 4-year universities but even still, most successful applicants have relevant experience and a relevant advanced degree. I’ve reviewed applications from former professors wanting to transition into academic advising and even the very best ones didn’t get an interview. Only a few were even considered – the ones who wrote excellent cover letters explaining what they loved about academic advising and why they were truly interested in it as a career. But even then, they couldn’t trump the applications from people who actually had full-time academic advising experience and a relevant advanced degree. If your husband is actually interested in academic advising, my advice would be to look for positions in education-specific programs (like advising for a teaching credential program), where his teaching experience will actually be relevant and more of a plus.

      1. Question for Former Teachers*

        Thanks, this is a really interesting perspective because I had wondered how much overlap there truly is between advising-as-your-faculty-person and Advising.

        1. LAI*

          Yeah, they’re really not the same at all. The reason we don’t put any weight on experience as a faculty advisor is that they generally doing it extremely part-time (like maybe 5% of their job description, if even that) and they usually have no training so they might be doing it terribly. Plus, the student-professor relationship is completely different than the student-advisor relationship, because the professor still gives them a grade at the end. Also, advisors don’t just counsel students on being successful in college, you also have to apply and interpret a ton of rules and regulations, which is not something faculty are known for being good at. I could go on…

          Anyway, to actually try to be helpful, your husband would probably have better luck focusing on positions that actually use his knowledge. So if he wants to work at a university in a non-academic role, I’d recommend looking at openings in the departments of the subject(s) he taught, or anything related. Many departments have programmatic roles that are more like planning academic events, or analyst roles that involve researching issues and writing reports. If he can also demonstrate the transferable skills, his knowledge in the subject area would probably be considered a bonus.

    9. Jortina*

      Also a former teacher, currently SAHM, trying to figure out What I Want to be when I Grow Up.
      So thanks for asking this question and I’ll be following for more responses.

    10. BF*

      I know some who have gone into teaching at zoos or museums. I also know some who now work in curriculum development for online schools.

    11. Erika22*

      Would he be interested in working as a coach/mentor or delivering PD for teachers? He could easily transition to coaching or facilitating and from there move into higher level work. There are tons of nonprofits who do that sort of work and it’s a decent paycheck.

    12. School Psych*

      I’m a former special-education teacher,who got certified through an alternative certification program. Almost no-one from my cohort is still a classroom teacher. Here are some of the jobs they transitioned into: Drug and Alcohol Counselor, Dean of Students, Education Professor(many trainers of teachers do this with just a masters and teaching experience), Curriculum Development/Writing textbooks, Speech Pathologist, School Social-Worker, High School Transition Specialist(teaching degree plus around 2-3 extra classes depending on state’s requirements), Piano teacher, New Teacher Mentor, Program Director for an Alternative Certification Program, Family/School Liason, Behavior Specialist working in a pediatric Autism Clinic. I’m a school-psychologist. I know you said he didn’t want to go back to school, but everyone I know who is a school-based clinician(PT, OT, SP, Psych) loves their jobs. It is very different from being a teacher. You get a lot of flexibility and autonomy about how to structure your day and job. You’re often the only person in your buildings with your role and your job is hard to fill, so you get treated with respect and as an expert in your field by the building administrators. Plus, you can take a bathroom or lunch break pretty much whenever you want.

  23. Yulia*

    I’m new to my job (6 months) in a newly created position. I work with one other woman, “Joan.” Joan is twice my age and sort of the “office mother”. I’ve noticed that Joan is very observant and often studies/inspects me. She’s talked about how her children notice her looking at them and call her out on it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I have acne and do my best to cover it, but it’s not perfect. I wear earrings as well, so maybe she’s looking at them?

    I know part of it is me and my own insecurities, but is there a way to address this? (As opposed to shouting, “Stop looking at me!” which is what I feel like doing…)

    1. fposte*

      I’d treat it as benign, but you’re not required to ignore it if you’re not feeling it–if you see her looking, you can wave, or say cheerfully, “Did you need me for something?”

    2. Murphy*

      I’d probably call her on it in a friendly way. “Hey, what’s up?” “Do you need my help with something?” Just to acknowledge that she’s looking at you, and that you see it. Depending on your relationship, you can maybe say something like “Did I spill food on my shirt?” which may be a hint to her that it’s making you feel self-conscious. But it sounds like it’s not about you at all, and that she may not be doing it on purpose.

      You can also be more upfront about it, but I get why that might feel awkward.

    3. A.N.O.N.*

      Whenever you catch her looking at you: “Hey Joan, do you need something?” Done enough times, and she should hopefully stop staring.

      1. Secretary*

        There was a guy who did this at my work. If I asked politely if he needed something he would look away and say no, but it kept happening.

        One day, I just stared back very intently. I allowed my facial features to change… my eyebrows raised, my mouth frowned and eventually opened then I glared. The result was a face that conveyed ‘what on earth are you doing?’ and I said “what?!?” (quietly with a touch of exasperated attitude).

        He never did it again.

    4. Triumphant Fox*

      I would do the same, “Do you need me?” “Did you need my attention?” several times and hopefully she’ll get the hint that you notice her staring and it’s bothersome. If she doesn’t stop, I would approach her and say, “Joan, I notice that you often stare at me throughout the day even when you don’t need my help or want to get my attention. It’s distracting and makes me think I’m doing something odd. Could you stop unless you need me? I’d like to be able to focus.”

  24. Super Anon*

    Long story short, I was terminated from what I would have considered my dream job last week. I was in the position for 3 months. From the moment I walked in the door of this job, everything went totally wrong. Management was unhelpful in every way, and I allowed panic and anxiety to cloud my work performance. I can’t help but beat myself up over it, but I was totally unprepared for the work environment I ended up in and how it ended up affecting the work I was supposed to do. The job that I had previously loved the work I did and praised me daily (even threw me a going away party!) so to go from that to downright failure is incredibly hard for me to swallow.

    What steps did you take to recover emotionally from a job that did not work out?
    Has anything like what happened to me happen to anybody else?

    1. Anon Anon*

      I had a job that didn’t work out about 10 years ago. Honestly, I found finding another job that I was successful made the biggest difference, but even a decade later I still am slightly paranoid about being let go or put on a performance improvement plan. I don’t know that ever goes away completely. But, I do think finding another job as quickly as possible (even if it’s a temporary job) so that you can rebuild you confidence is key.

    2. SansaStark*

      Wow, I had this exact same thing happen to me. It was awful and I’m so sorry that you’re going through this now.

      I slept constantly for the first week after they fired me. I didn’t realize that living with so much anxiety had taken so much out of me, but it did. Take care of yourself – go for walks, sleep as much as you need, etc. Spend some time doing whatever *you* want to do – I love to read and so I spent most of my days either looking for a job or reading since that seemed to restore *me* to me, if that makes any sense.

      I also felt incredibly embarrassed that my “dream job” was a nightmare. But hopefully you’ll see in time how it put you on a different path. After that, I took a much lower-paying lower-responsibility job because I thought that I couldn’t do more. Obviously I was terrible at everything like my former bosses said. Turns out, my new bosses LOVED me, encouraged me, built me up, and turned me on to a new career where I’m much more suited. I wouldn’t have believed it then, but now I see that that experience really set me on a better and more fulfilling path both with my career and life in general.

      Good luck and take especially good care of yourself for the next few weeks!

      1. Super Anon*

        So. Much. This.

        I am incredibly embarrassed about my performance and my behavior at my former employer. I just froze toward the end and stopped caring about what I was doing day to day because I didn’t have the emotional capacity to give anything and no matter what I did, I got yelled at for it.

        Much of what happened to me wasn’t my fault and I recognize that, but it literally felt like I was kicked in the ass every single day until my termination. I would cry before going in and after I left. It was awful.

        I’m glad to be on the other side of things now, but my emotions are all over the place. One minute I feel confident and like myself, the next I want to crawl under a rock after thinking about the feedback I was given about my work.

        I’m mostly angry though. Angry the job didn’t work out. Angry that I left a job that I was doing well at for this nutty place where everyone walked on eggshells. Angry angry angry, coulda, woulda, shoulda.

        I am lightly applying for work now, but I’m really taking my time before I hop back into anything.

        Thank you, Sansa. Reading this helped me so much.

    3. Sloan Kettering*

      Aw, this is something that happens to more people than you’d think – good people, not just screw ups who don’t care. It’s actually to your benefit that you weren’t there long, you can leave it off your resume entirely and hopefully not have too much of a gap. I’d take the time to recover, and then strategize about how you can pitch your re-entry into the work place. Do you want to stay in the field you were in? This might be a good time to do a 180 and strike out in a new direction – you can explain the abrupt change that way too (“I realized my real passion was llama tending”).

    4. Emalia*

      Thank you for posting this. I jot a job in September after a long period of unemployment after my nonprofit closed down. The place seemed great but the job was too much for me. So I’ve actually just come from a meeting where I was told I’ve been reassigned to a different role.
      Given the my recent job history, I was hoping my (now former) position would help me rebuild my job history. Guess not.
      Following this tread because I also need strategies to move forward.

      1. Super Anon*

        My former employer was a nonprofit too. The job had some great perks, but the work itself was def not for me.

    5. Specialk9*

      Recovering emotionally, for me, was about crying a lot, taking long walks (preferably in the rain, listening to angry music)… And then eventually reframing the situation. Instead of ‘I’m the failingest failure ever and everybody knows’, I worked on how the experiences (plural) were teaching me empathy for others. If we don’t suffer, we struggle with being able to connect with others’ suffering. Especially for high achievers, it’s easy to just get frustrated when others struggle. Having struggled, and having crashed and burned, is a wonderful if painful teacher.

      You only asked about the emotional, but career wise, things work out. You may restart the ladder climb, you may get bumped to another ladder, but this is when you learn important truths about yourself that will give you reassurance in the future. Namely that
      YOU ARE RESILIENT, and

      THIS TOO SHALL PASS, and

      YOU’LL BE OK.

      Hugs from other people who have fallen on our faces, spit out the mud, and picked ourselves back up to start marching onward.

      1. Super Anon*

        I cried so hard reading this, Special K.
        Thank you for writing this. Saving it to my computer for the hard days.

    6. Lady Phoenix*

      I say give yourself time to mourn. Sleep in, eat ice cream, netlfix binge, etc. give yourself enough time to essentially let out all the negative emotions. I say this will probably take yoj a week, maybe 2?

      Once you are done, you can go and job hunt. You will feel refreshed and more concentrated than trying to do it while you are “not over” the drwam job.

      1. Super Anon*

        Thanks for the advice, Lady Phoenix.

        I have personally taken to long sessions of Sims 4. It’s super helpful.

    7. cactus lady*

      yes, i had this experience about 3 years ago. i moved states (to be closer to home) for a job that i thought was the next big step in my career! but it was immediately and totally WRONG and that was compounded by the fact that my long-term SO who had convinced me this was a great idea turned out to be cheating on me… and i found out the first day of work. i ended up finding something else before they could fire me (and oh, they were going to fire me), but it was still the worst feeling. even three years later the whole thing makes me cringe. however, the position i took out of desperation to leave that job led to the one i am in now, and my career has moved in a totally different direction, and one i am much happier with. but it’s not something i would have ever actively pursued, without that experience. the biggest lesson i learned was to seize whatever opportunity presented itself, and not worry too much about the things that didn’t work out. this isn’t a reflection on you as a person, but clearly you and that role weren’t meant for each other. but there is something else out there for you. hang in there! you will get through it.

    8. Triumphant Fox*

      I would really recommend reframing this from “failure” to “bad fit” and thinking of this less as a dream job and more as an illusion that turned out to be more of a mirage than a reality. You rocked your previous job – remember that. You are competent. You are talented. Put in the right environment, a great company would be lucky to have you.

      I have seen people come into work environments and just be unable to adapt. My last position was incredibly intense – I loved it, but it drained me and I watched 4 hires in as many months try and “fail” to meet the demands of the position. Each of them didn’t fit for a different reason, but my manager (who I absolutely loved and is still a close friend) was incredibly generous with each of them and very firm that these were instances where they learned what didn’t work and could move onto what would work better for them.

      What didn’t work in this position? Was it the pace of the work environment? Was it too collaborative/not collaborative enough? What about management was actually unhelpful? Once you’ve identified some of the real ways that this job didn’t fit, write them out and make that a hard list for the next position. Use these to frame your questions for when you interview your next potential employer. “What kind of training do you offer new employees?” “How much feedback would someone in this position receive before project completion?” “How many projects does a person in this position oversee at one time?”

      The sooner you reframe this as “didn’t meet expectations” rather than “complete failure at dream job,” the sooner you can dream of a REAL dream job – one that will actually support you and make you shine.

    9. Chris V*

      I have had a similar situation, though I resigned before the (inevitable) termination — a technicality that didn’t do much to soothe my ego and sense of failure! What helped me get through this ordeal was re-framing the situation a bit. My “dream job” turned into a soul-crushing nightmare — despite my best due diligence of researching the organization, talking to current employees, asking substantive questions, etc. — and I left after 2 years. A big cause was just bad fit. The director and I did not see eye-to-eye and we had different ideas, working styles, and priorities. It ultimately meant that my position was untenable from both sides. (And both sides were at fault: the director kept changing various goalposts and didn’t give me the tools I needed, yet I also began mentally checking out of the job probably 6-9 months before I actually left and stopped performing at my previous level.) Recognizing that the institution and I were a bad fit really helped me gain acceptance — kind of like some personal relationships, nobody did anything really malicious or egregious, “we” just didn’t work out. It also helped that I had a decade of success prior to this failed position. I had already proved myself in the same position at other places, so I tried not to take it too personally (or a sign that I had “failed”) when the new job didn’t work out. It sounds like you, too, have past success to help you put the recent job into perspective. It took time (as well as a lot of tears) to get past my ordeal — and I still have occasional feelings of shame over my own sense of failure, but they’ve significantly diminished. And, for as awful as the failed job was, I’ve now come to value it as a learning experience: I learned a lot about myself, about what I’m looking for in a job / organization / boss. After a couple of years of drifting a bit and doing freelance work (partly because I’m in a niche field with jobs few and far between, partly because of a move for family reasons), I’ve landed on my feet and am doing well at another organization that is a much better fit. It can be hard to gain some objectivity and put this experience into perspective when the termination is fresh: try to be patient and kind to yourself. At the risk of sounding corny, most journeys take twists and turns and hit potholes along the way!

    10. Kathenus*

      I’ve lived through a somewhat similar situation relatively recently. I left a job I was very happy and successful in to chase a dream job in a dream location that I would of course work in for the rest of my career. It cost me thousands of dollars to make the move, but again, I was sure that this was the perfect job. One year in it started becoming very evident that there were some significant philosophical/ethical differences between me and my bosses – although in hindsight I now see the red flags that preceded this – including some that occurred during the interview process. After the second year I was out, somewhere between an agreed upon decision and resigning under duress. It cost thousands more dollars to get myself out and make another move to a job that I’m hopefully more realistic about.

      So I did a lot of the things other commenters mention – crying, spoiling myself, soul-searching, blaming myself, blaming my bosses – sometimes all within the same day :). But eventually I just had to take concrete steps, even if they were baby steps, towards moving forward – look for jobs with my newfound experience and knowledge to help me make better choices, realistically look at what areas I excel in and where I can improve based on this and other past positions, write lists of things I do and don’t want in my next position to help me sort out my thoughts and have some better resources to use in identifying better fits. And I love Triumphant Fox’s comment of thinking of this in relation to fit not failure. I found a magnet that made me laugh, kind of, that said “Another Character Building Experience” – and putting it on my fridge was cathartic in a strange way.

      Long and rambling answer, but the take home for me was to – over time – use the experience to learn and grow and make better choices about fit going forward. You never know for sure, but it was a real aha moment for me when I saw all of the yellow to red flags along the way that I discounted at the time – that I should have paid better attention to. I’m now in a job I really like, living in a town I really really like, but not with the illusion of looking for a dream – and this has helped me a lot to frame my expectations. I’ve also taken ownership of the parts of the past job situation that I contributed to in a negative way, but didn’t take on the guilt of the parts of the situation that were due to others’ actions.

      You will get through this, and it may not be immediately, but you can absolutely use this experience to become better and stronger going forward. I’ve unfortunately had a few really difficult situations throughout my career and bar none they ended up making me a better person who made smarter choices in my career and sometimes also in my life later on.

      Good luck, lots of internet thoughts and hugs being sent your way.

  25. Missing?*

    My coworker is leaving on mat leave very shortly and I will be her out of office. For anyone who has covered a long-term absence (I’m Canadian so she’ll be gone for a year), is there anything I should make sure to ask/follow-up on? I work in marketing if that helps and we have clients so she will be briefing me on all of her clients and leaving any paperwork she thinks I’ll need. I’ll also have access to her emails and her important documents will be available in a shared folder. I’m nervous I’m missing something though! I’ve been included on all of her communication with clients and I’m having a hard time taking things in because I have very little back story on her accounts.

    Has anyone covered an absence and wished they would’ve asked a certain question/had certain information?

    1. Grandma Mazur*

      I’m on a year’s mat leave at the moment and I drafted quite detailed handover notes (the back-story) for the two team heads who would be taking over from me. I also made sure the handover meetings took place a week before I left/reached 37 weeks pregnant so that there was some time for my replacements to process and come back with questions (obviously timings couldn’t be guaranteed!). From my perspective, it was explaining the interpersonal dynamics within the teams (e.g., how individuals wish to be line-managed, how do they line-manage, and so on) that would have fallen through the cracks if I’d only focussed on handing over actual “tasks”. But this may not be an issue for you.

      1. Missing?*

        Thanks for your input. I’ll ask her to put together notes from now (and update them before she leaves). She’s not detailed at all and often leaves information out so I’d rather have time to review them and ask her to fill in the blanks once I receive the notes. Thanks!

    2. Tara*

      It sounds like you’ve got your bases covered. There will always be something that crops up that no one thought about ahead of time, but it’s not a big deal. The only other thing I might do is ask who the best person to contact is if you have a question. e.g., “If I have questions about doing X service for clients, who should I reach out to?” That person might not be able to give you the same answer your coworker could, but it’s still a resource.

      1. Missing?*

        Haha that person would be me! Others would come to me to get answers which is why I’m stressing. But you’re right, there will always be something that comes up that no one thought about.

    3. Ashley*

      Ask about her filing system. Once you know where to find anything that may not have been shared it is much easier.

  26. The Second to Last Airbender*

    I’m in a very awkward situation right now. One of my coworker’s parents who also worked for my employer was fired this week. The parent had been here a long time (and that’s likely why my coworker was hired) and I have no clue what happened. How can I best support my coworker at this time? Treat everything like it’s normal? Give them space?

    Additionally, there have been a lot issues with their work before this that I’ve been letting my manager know about as some are pretty bad and they’ve asked me to keep track. Do I hold off a little bit on this?

    1. peachie*

      I think your instinct is right–I would just treat them as normal. If you have a closer relationship with them, I’d be open to discussing and offering sympathy if they opened up about it, but I think it’s generally best to assume that most people want to carry on normally at work during difficult situations.

    3. kas*

      I had the same thing happen at my work with a coworker and his mother and we all acted like nothing happened. If I worked with a parent and they were fired, I’d hope people would act the same.

      Do you have to report back to your manager regularly? If the work issues are serious, I’d continue to keep track. I’d feel bad though.

  27. Dr. Doll*

    I just read yet another (robust) research paper about how women are expected to say “yes” to requests for help and service in the academy, and if they say no, they may be dinged for it because then they are cold and bitchy and unhelpful. Men saying no simply have other more important priorities, good-for-them. I’m wondering if there is any script that a woman can use to say no while preserving the *perception* of being warm and helpful.

    Like this: “Oh my goodness, thank you so much for asking me. I really appreciate that you thought of me. Unfortunately I am completely booked up right now and I could not do a good job for you so I am going to have to pass. I suggest you ask [someone else].”

    Of course, a male professor can say, “No, sorry, don’t have time.”

    So I don’t love that script above because it shows someone contorting herself to take care of the other person’s tender feelings. But maybe it would be worth it, if the payoff was you didn’t spent 5 hours on that committee and the person *still* thought you were a good colleague?

    1. fposte*

      Honestly, I think the only really reliable script is “I’m the mfing chancellor and I have better things to do.”

      In practice for us lowlier folks, strategies will depend on whom we’re talking to and department culture. In addition to the reservations you express about your first script, I think in some departments it could be BS-level fulsome; I also think that there’s a good chance that the way a woman says no isn’t going to make much difference and that the problem is saying no at all. I therefore might favor a slightly more quantitative approach if you know it works to your benefit–“I’m already promised to five school committees this semester–I might have room for another in fall, so check back with me then” could be effective to the guy who’s on two.

      1. Dr. Doll*

        Sigh, that’s what I was afraid of. The problem is saying no AT ALL, which is so completely unfair. Especially because women get *asked more often* than men do (which means more opportunities to be dinged for saying no), and they get asked for different things. Men get asked to participate in research, women get asked to do service and teaching. And once you start down that path of saying yes to service and teaching, people assume that that’s your thing and they keep asking, which means you never get to do the research.

        You might be interested in the paper: O’Meara et al. Dec. 2017. Asked more often: Gender differences in faculty workload in research universities and the work interactions that shape them. Am. Educ. Res. J. 54:1154-1186.

        Wonder if all the women in a department could band together and start saying no. That would be fun.

        2. Reba*

          I agree with fposte. I actually thought on first read that your script was an exaggeration for effect, to illustrate over-emotional language. ;)

          I think your suggesting another person –and perhaps replying at all– is sufficiently helpful.

          I would also leave out language about your potential performance (“couldn’t do a good job for you”). Just being full up on service commitments for the semester, year, eternity is sufficient explain it.

          Do you have a supportive chair you can talk to about what boundaries you should set around service?

    2. Murphy*

      I work at a university and often make requests of faculty, many of whom say no. I get emails like both of your examples up there (although no one helpfully suggests anyone else!) The latter really annoys me, no matter the gender. (Although least helpful are the people who just ignore my email altogether, which is pretty common.)

      My ideal refusal response is somewhere in between those two. I don’t need a super long explanation, but I do want to know if the person is actually interested/willing to help out, because I can come back to them at a later time when I need someone with similar expertise. If someone just says no, but I need someone with those qualifications again, I’m going to ask again, and it would be easier to know that that person is just always going to say no, rather than to have to waste my time asking them again. Something like “I’d love to help out, but I have a large grant proposal due next month. I’d be willing to help next time though.”

    3. Kj*

      Unpopular opinion, but I think the reality is that, as a woman, you have to take care of others’ feelings more than men do. I am in that boat often, I take care of others so I don’t get dinged for being a cold-hearted b-word. I’m not naturally inclined to do this for other adults (for kids, it is second nature, but then, I CHOOSE to work with kids).

      I have to exert a fair amount of effort to make sure I am the right amount of accommodating for colleagues. That often involves making statements like the one in your post or taking on a small, easily completed job so I look more like a team player, while still staying firmly out of “office mom” territory. It is tricky balance and I hope someday, women can say no to requests and not get dinged. But we don’t live in that world yet and I’d like a career, so I tend to the emotions of others. Ugh.

      1. peachie*

        I mostly agree (at least for me personally) but it seriously bums me out. Luckily (I guess?) I naturally have that kind of personality so I’m not really putting anything on, but I hate knowing that it’s not totally a choice.

        It’s like the makeup thing to me. I wear makeup anyway so wearing it to work isn’t a change in my habits. But I also know that wearing it means that I am taken more seriously, and although I would go to “regular work” without makeup (I did for years), I would NEVER do so for an interview or important meeting. And that bums me out too.

      2. fposte*

        One problem in fields like academics is that we’re talking huge time commitments that impinge your ability to get research done–and you then get dinged for not getting enough research done.

    4. TheMonkey*

      I recently did this to turn down nomination for vp-elect of one of our smaller national professional organizations. It’s an org that I like and support and wouldn’t mind leading in the future, so I wanted to make sure I didn’t burn any bridges.

      When I got the original request, I asked some follow up questions regarding time commitments and other responsibilities, then asked for some time to consider. When I decided the answer was no, I wrote this email:

      Good afternoon [person]

      I would like to thank the officers for considering me for this position, but unfortunately I have to decline at this time. This year and next year I’ll have chair- and/or vice chair-level responsibilities for two different [profession] committees, so entering into a leadership track in another organization is not something I can commit to at this time.

      However, I retain a strong interest in ORG and it’s mission. I will have rotated off both of my current committees by Fall 2019. If ORG is looking for officers around that time, I hope you will consider me again.

      Again, I greatly appreciate the offer and am sorry that the timing is poor this time around.

      Very best regards,
      TheMonkey

      It is very much a contortion exercise to spare everyone’s tender feelings, but this slightly over-the-top wording is pretty common in my field, both from women and men. We are a very small field and so most are supremely cautious of burning a bridge or causing offense. I saw the colleague (female) who made the request at one of our professional conferences a few months afterward and she still treated me like a valued colleague, so a few minutes and overblown language was (to me) worth it to preserve the relationship and keep the door open going forward.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The key difference I see between this and Dr. Doll’s second example is that this one does not have emotionally loaded phrasing. “Thank you for considering me, but I must decline at this time” is, IME, the right balance between “Nope” and “Oh gosh thanks a million but I’m so sorry I can’t right now but next time I’d love to!” The latter two just aren’t very professional, regardless of who is saying them.

        There’s still the issue of women-saying-no is career limiting while men-saying-no is accepted, but that might only change with the increase of women in positions of power, who normify the ability to say no when it is important to say no.

    5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I often frame it as not having the bandwidth to join another committee because I will be unable to effectively participate. So far that’s worked without it dinging me (knock on wood). I don’t say I can’t do a good job, just because I’ve found people latch onto that part of the explanation and not the “I’m all booked” part of the explanation.

    6. moql*

      This doesn’t work if you’ve been there a while, but my advisor told us to say yes to absolutely everything the first year, drop as many balls as you need to to get your research done, and then they won’t be as quick to ask again. Not very professional, but people don’t ding you for saying no and you just look too busy, not unwilling to be a department contributor.

      2. Dr. Doll*

        Oof, now that just makes you a jerk. “Yes, I’ll do it” and then you don’t gives you a well deserved bad rep as selfish or flaky. I hope you filed that advice where it belongs.

  28. Ramona Flowers*

    Thanks so so much to everyone who gave advice about my colleague asking me what I was eating and inviting themselves to join me on my lunch.

    A lot of people said if I took some time for myself I might feel more willing to socialise. At the time I was at near BEC stage and thought: nope nope not happening. Turns out you were in fact right.

    We’ve worked together three days so far in 2018. I went off on my own the first couple of days and then on the third day they mentioned that they felt like getting lunch from a place I was in the mood for, and I very happily asked them if they’d like to go together, I felt genuinely pleased when they said yes and then enjoyed chatting with them over lunch.

    So I think I just need to take time for myself sometimes and all will be fine. Thank you all so much for all your kind and helpful comments!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I’m really glad that this worked out so well for you. Like you said, sometimes you just need to take time for yourself so that you can get back to a normal stage.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      I hate when other people turn out to be right … I usually figure it out about a week or two after I decided they were dead wrong :P

  29. Guy Incognito*

    Hi! Looking for some advice on recommending someone for a job.

    I work in higher ed, and my institution takes forever to fill positions (or at least take them off the jobs page). I have a friend who has been unemployed since the summer through a lay off at her company, and she has applied to two jobs I personally think she would be great at (she’s also an alumna, which is a plus). She applied months ago, and both positions are still active.

    Now, I know someone in one of the departments and we are friendly, however I don’t see or deal with her often, so I don’t know how welcome this type of phone call would be from me. Two other questions also: could the fact that my friend applied for 2 jobs at the university look bad, and I also let her list me as a reference already so would this be seen as overkill?

    My friend is really conscientious, hardworking, and I recommended her at a previous job and it turned out great, so I’d like to help her if I can.

    Any advice you all have would be great as always :)

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Most university hiring that I’m familiar with involves applications being routed directly to the hiring manager, so unless both applications are for roles on the same team, no one would know how many jobs that applicant had applied to. But, as you know, university hiring takes a looooong time. (I just started in a new role at a university and I just looked at my application status online and it still says “in progress,” and I’ve been here for two months already — so updating the site also takes a looooong time.)

      1. Guy Incognito*

        That’s something I’m nervous about – perhaps it has been filled, but it is good to know that perhaps they don’t know of the other application. Thanks, and good luck o n the new gig!

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      @Guy Incognito: question- the job that you want to recommend your friend for, is it one of the jobs she applied for? Even if it is, I think it would be ok to ask the person that you know in the department that is hiring if you could submit your friend’s resume for the position. If it’s ok, once you submit it, I wouldn’t badger the person about it on a daily basis. However, after a few weeks if no one has mentioned anything, I would casually ask the friend in the Department if they’ve narrowed down candidates and starting interviewing yet. If at this point, there is no mention of your friend, you could probably ask if she’s in the running.

      1. Guy Incognito*

        Hi! Yes it would be one of the ones she applied for. You’re right though, definitely just thinking a one time thing, definitely not bringing it up again and again. Thank you!

    3. Tara*

      There are rules around public university hiring that effectively mean your contact may not even know that your friend is in the pool, and wouldn’t be able to look at a resume even if you passed it along. However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with putting in a friendly word once, and then letting it drop.

      1. Guy Incognito*

        Thanks! We’re private, so I’m not sure if that’s true here, but yeah I don’t do this often so mainly I just want to be sure I’m not overstepping.

        1. Dankar*

          I was in this situation not that long ago, with a friend who had applied to a job at the private college where I was working. I talked it over with my supervisor (neither of us were anywhere near the search committee, though I was friendly with someone who was) and I was told to send an email or call with a heads up that someone I knew was applying and I felt strongly that she would be worth looking at for the position.

          Someone in our department was hired after my predecessor reached out on her behalf. (Which was good, because it turned out her application had initially been lost!)

          1. Guy Incognito*

            Thank you! – it sounds like my gut instinct was right – it’s cool to drop a line but not push it. when we get back next week I’ll give my colleague a call.

    1. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      There is a bar opening in my city that will have axe throwing. If I am in charge of planning our team building event this summer, we’re totally going there for the social part of the afternoon.

    2. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: I’m anti-retreat although in my career I have gone on and planned at least 50 (I’m old!). That said, my poor arthritic hands (which have been that way since my teens) would probably not be able to grip in such a way that I could throw the darned thing!

      It’s certainly a very different option for team building–if you go this direction, what other ways could folks participate besides actual throwing? Would it be a one-day activity or part of a longer retreat? What type of outcome are you looking for that will help folks work better together?

      1. Emac*

        I’m not actually planning a retreat. I just came across an article about it and found it amusing/potentially problematic to imagine a work retreat there – for both the reasons you mention and because employers would have to be very sure there were no disgruntled employees before bringing them somewhere that they’re throwing deadly weapons around! Though I would love to try it myself.

        1. Nanc*

          Oh–I jumped to so many conclusions! That said, I wouldn’t mind going and watching something like this–kinda like skiing. I have no desire to actually throw myself down a snowy mountain with sticks strapped to my feet but I love sitting in the lodge sipping a mocha and watching all the action!

    3. Triangle Pose*

      We did this. It was fun. really not that different and more inclusive than other activities that tout corporate teambuilding.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh.

      I have a rotator cuff problem on my dominant side and would probably not be able to throw axes. I would worry about being dinged for non-participation. . If a company is okay with people not doing the activity because they can’t or would prefer not to, and still has options for them be the cheering section/get fed, etc., then fine.

    6. OtterB*

      Passing this one on to staff at my office. We don’t do required team-building things, but we do optional fun things once in a while (bike ride, Escape room, climbing gym, movie) and this is certainly different.

    7. Humble Schoolmarm*

      My co-workers actually did this as a voluntary after-hours social event and it was a huge success. It was a lot less dangerous than it sounded and there were some genuine surprises about who did well. It was pretty fun, actually. We may do this again next year.

  31. High School Flashbacks*

    Can anyone suggest a script for me for a situation I’m anticipating? We recently had a round of layoffs at my office which hit everyone pretty hard. In around the same timeframe a woman on my team and I were offered the chance to go to a two day training for professional development. The other woman on my team is FURIOUS. She was already angry at the layoffs happening, who was chosen, why the organization is running money losing programs* and the idea that people are being offered an opportunity to go to professional development things was apparently a bridge too far.
    She turned down the opportunity but I took it – my boss and the CEO both think this is a worthwhile investment.
    What can I say when she inevitably finds out that I’m going and takes it badly? I think my desired response of – the money is from a (technically) different pot, is going to get spent anyway so I’m taking the opportunity please go away is a bad one. Worse is the one of “I want to get better at my job so more people don’t get laid off – maybe if you did the same we wouldn’t have lost funding from longtime partners this year” (It’s not her fault that these orgs decided not to fund us but we work in development – we are fairly responsible for bringing in money)
    *these programs are offered to our constituents at no cost but are a primary part of our mission. The board is not worried about running them at a loss if they have to.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, she is letting anger override logic. It can be tempting to think that strength of emotion on a topic is the same as being right, but it’s not. You don’t have to justify yourself, and if she harangues you, it’s ok to say something like ‘I respect the position you’ve taken, but I have a different view of this situation, and I’d like you to stop bringing it up with me.’

    2. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      No one was laid off b/c someone spent $2000 on conference travel. That just isn’t how it works. You don’t owe her an explanation. Upper management clearly has no problem with it, so she shouldn’t either.

    4. Shiara*

      Well. It sounds like she’s being unreasonable about this, so you may want to be prepared for her to continue to be unreasonable and plan to just minimise and deflect discussion about it if she brings it up.

      If she does confront you, you might try something like “The layoffs were pretty upsetting, but they have motivated me to work on fostering our connections and this seemed like a good opportunity for me to learn how to do that better.” or “I’m hoping that following up on this opportunity will help me be in a position to influence future situations like the one we just had.” I’d be careful to stick to owning your own choices rather than commenting on hers, and to try to be as charitable as possible in interpreting her comments as her being upset that friends have lost jobs, as the sympathy may help disarm her.

    5. High School Flashbacks*

      Thank you all – she’s generally unreasonable and try as I might generally reminds me of the stereotype of a teenage girl. Deflecting and focusing on future benefits is probably for the best!

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      If she continues to badmouth the organization and refuses to participate in professional development, I don’t think she’ll be around long enough for this to be an ongoing problem. If you HAVE to answer her, I wouldn’t address her complaints, the money, or the layoffs at all. “I want the organization to succeed so I’m going to accept any opportunities that might help me accomplish that goal.”

    7. CatCat*

      I would engage with her as little as possible and just nip any argument in the bud. “I’m not up for discussion or debate on this.” If she goes off, just excuse yourself. “I said I didn’t want to debate this. Please excuse me, I need to go now.” The end.

    8. Anony*

      “No one was happy about the layoffs, but handicapping our ability to continue our organization’s mission will not make it any better. This is a great opportunity both for me and for the company and will help us in that mission. Continually complaining about past layoffs and turning down opportunities for us improve job performance and capabilities is ultimately counterproductive.”

    9. amysee*

      “I’ve heard your concerns, but they’re not something I can do anything about in my role. If this is something you want to take to management you should do that, but I don’t think this is a productive conversation for you and I to have.”

    10. Not So NewReader*

      “What can I say when she inevitably finds out that I’m going and takes it badly? ”

      I am sure folks disagree but I am a big fan of investing in one’s people when the going gets tough. To the company you appear to understand this school of thought so you jumped on the opportunity. The company noticed that you are being agreeable, and they noticed your cohort is not. This will be important at a future time. So poor choice on her part.

      Next, understand that even if you resolve this particular issue with her you have not fixed her anger with the company. She will remain angry with the company, potentially she may not allow you to bridge her disagreement with your choice. This means you could be defeated before you start.

      With that in mind, I would use a big picture focus. I would redirect her by saying, “I don’t think that discussing this resolves your upset with our company. Just as I respect your decision not to go, I expect you to respect my decision to go. I really think that this is part of a larger problem that you should discuss with the boss, because I don’t have the authority to fix all the aspects to this problem.”

  32. Sloan Kettering*

    I can’t figure out how to work with my manager about this bear of a report that I’m assigned. I say “report” but it’s actually a compilation of seven reports. It’s very boring and tedious to generate – and involves manually synthesizing and entering data as well as complex formulas and analysis. My manager has no idea how this gets done or what goes into it – doesn’t care. He insists it must be done and that I have to do it, but doesn’t want to hear anything about the details or why it takes so long or how it could be easier (I have offered many suggestions for substitute fields that could be automated – no, he wants it the manual way). I have no particular background in data analysis or even power usage of excel and I have ZERO interest in becoming the report person, but here I am. This year I was dinged on my evaluation for not taking on “stretch” assignments but … this report dominates much of my time an energy. I just feel like I get no credit or respect for doing it because it’s not exciting or interesting (although theoretically it was important enough to assign to me).

    2. Ashley*

      He may not noice if you automate parts. Watch because you asked. Typically my boss just cares about my finished product so rarely do we talk details until I am about to go on holiday and they have to cover.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ask him which he wants the stretch assignments or this report. If he says both ask him if he is authorizing overtime for you.

      Keep a time sheet of how much time you sink into this report. This way you will have hard numbers to show the boss.

      Find an ally. Who did this before you? If they are not there anymore is there anyone else who did this? Talk with this person, if you find them and ask their advice.

  33. stephistication1*

    Does anyone have a work “term’ that they hope will be left in 2017? Mine are:
    -Collaborate
    -Sync (as in “Let’s sync on that later…”)
    -Low-hanging fruit
    -End of day
    -Circle back
    -Move the needle
    -Boil the ocean
    -Deep-dive

    Please forgive me…I attend a lot of meetings and hearing the same words used all day can be (can’t think of a word).

    2. Murphy*

      “Please advise” I don’t know why, but I have a visceral reaction to that phrase.

      I’ve never heard “sync” used that way, and I hope that I never do.

      1. stephistication1*

        I feel you. It reads like it’s either a blanket request for advise or laziness in communication. Extra points if it’s the closing comment after a long, three paragraph email. Like, what exactly do you want advise on?

        2. Murphy*

          That’s how I read it, I guess, but I get it when there’s no reason for that person to be like that. It will be their first email to me about an issue and the email is basically “I’m interested in X. Please advise.”

        3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I’ve never used “please advise” but I actually might start using it when instructions are so obviously contradictory or impossible that what I really want to ask is “have you been drinking?” For example, my client thinks the brochure is too cluttered and hard to read, but they want to add more text and make all the photos larger…please advise.

        4. Someone else*

          That’s good actually because whenever someone says it to me, I interpret it as business email passive-aggressive. So, I’d say you’re communicating effectively there! :)

      3. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

        I only sign an email with “please advise” if I’ve sent you three emails and you haven’t responded to a single one. It’s my corporate-polite way of saying I’m pissed and you need to get it together.

        Did you all see the twitter thread a few months ago where people offered their favorite professional email clap backs? It was solid gold.

        2. KayEss*

          Exactly! Asking for details the first time, I use “How do you want to proceed with X?” If I’m asking for details the third-fourth-twelfth time, you get “Please advise on X.”

    3. High School Flashbacks*

      un-siloing

      on the other hand I adore herding cats, perhaps because I use it in my personal life

        1. High School Flashbacks*

          Too funny that seems rather light-hearted for risk management- I studiously avoid using it at work because I manage volunteers

          My siblings on the other hand….definitely need herding

      3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I love “herding cats” too because it just really applies sometimes. Trying to get the faculty and students to line up and STAY lined up in order for commencement processional to begin IS like herding cats — or maybe coffee-ied-up squirrels.

            1. zora*

              Seriously. Drives me nuts. I usually try to put “Karen/Simi call” instead, but often it’s not up to me.

    6. The IT Manager*

      I haven’t heard “boil the ocean” or “move the needle” before but I get the gist.

      Years ago now, my ex used to say he was “dumpster diving” meaning searching for info (goggling for info), and I was already pretty sure that he inadvertently make that up from deep dive. I didn’t work with him, but I don’t think it was ever a common business term.

      2. Tara*

        What *does* boil the ocean mean? Move the needle is to influence/change people’s opinions/attitudes/awareness on a subject, but I’m not familiar with the other one.

        1. stephistication1*

          Boil the ocean is a kin to trying to do something that is nearly impossible or having a project with s scope so large, it could never realistically be completed.

        2. Bex*

          It’s usually used to indicate trying to do too much with scarce/limited resources. For example, to explain why you need to pick a target segment for a marketing campaign rather than just target “everyone.” Unless you’re Coke or Apple then your marketing budget can’t produce enough “heat” to boil an ocean, but if you take out a pot of water and focus, then you can boil the pot.

    7. purple orchid pot*

      -“ask” as a noun
      -“speak to” as a somehow-more-businesslike version of “speak about” or “discuss”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Miles: Sure, send them over at the end of the meeting and I will be happy to talk with them.

      3. Elizabeth H.*

        Speak to doesn’t even sound jargon y to me! It’s more like something I would use in academic writing. On the other hand I can see how it lacks precision.

    8. AndersonDarling*

      Outside the Box
      Cause they really don’t want anything “Outside the Box.” When you work inside the box, and your industry is inside the box, stuff truly from the outside doesn’t make sense. They really want the same old ideas hashed out to look like something new.

      1. stephistication1*

        Right. Same concept as “voluntold” – they don’t care if you really want to help, they just want it to look like there is employee engagement.

      3. Duckles*

        Likewise I don’t see what’s wrong with “going forward”– it spefically means “we will do things X way in the future despite that we have done them Y way in the past”. “In future calls/reports” works but isn’t any different to my ear.

    10. WellRed*

      Circle back, optics, and the new one I learned here this week, knowledge transfer. I’d also like to see fur baby die, but that’s not a work word.

      1. stephistication1*

        I’d like to see open concept, space and entertainment space die too #hgtv
        I’ll pretend to be a realtor so that these count as work terms!

      2. Close Bracket*

        Anyone who mentions “optics” around me better be prepared to tell me about their lens design. :-)

    11. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      The term “knowledge transfer” was used in an AAM letter earlier this week and it made me want to throw my computer. Apparently it’s a big term in the IT world, which I have zero familiarity with. I’m just hoping it doesn’t infiltrate my research world.

      I’ve never heard “boil the ocean.” In what context is that used? I’m just curious.

      1. stephistication1*

        Knowledge transfer is used in IT (my field) though for some reason it hasn’t started to bother me yet.
        Boil the ocean is a kin to trying to do something that is nearly impossible or having a project with s scope so large, it could never realistically be completed.

          2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

            Huh, I always thought of “harnessing the sun” as making something sustainable with low effort, like solar energy. I wonder if the meaning has morphed over time — at one time it meant doing the impossible, now it doesn’t.

    12. Work Wardrobe*

      Well, if one more person asks me, “Make sense?” — I will throttle them.

      So condescending and I’m not five years old, I can understand your perfectly well.

      1. stephistication1*

        I’ve said “I hope that makes sense” before. It was after a long narrative where I felt like I was all over the place. I was hoping that I could make them feel comfortable enough to tell me that I just confused the hell out of them. BUT I am careful to not say that often and focus more on my delivery.

      2. Susan K*

        Haha, that reminds me of a professor I had in college who would say, “Does that make sense?” after everything he said. Sometimes when I was really bored, I would count how many times he said it, and it was usually upwards of 20 times in a 50-minute class. And it was a lecture class with about 100 students, so it was clearly a hypothetical question, anyway.

    13. Penny*

      Just thought of another one that was huge at my former job. “Take off offline.” Like if you’re in a meeting and want to have a side discussion with someone else later. “Let’s take it offline.”

      1. stephistication1*

        I was going to add that to my list too! So annoying. Are we really online rather than on the phone? Add “web conferencing” to the list.

    14. fposte*

      I’ve come to the realization that I quite like jargon. There’s something meme-ish about it that tickles me.

      1. purple orchid pot*

        I like it when people dislike the same jargon I dislike! Not sure it’s the same realization but tickled nonetheless :)

      2. stephistication1*

        But when you hear the same ones all day long, it is tiring. I’d welcome some new ones. Although the old ones are tried and true and new ones are often cheesy. Sighs

      3. Kitten*

        Me too! But it has to have a real meaning.

        I actually like ‘let’s take that one offline’ because it’s a much cleaner way of saying ‘your point is valid, but not relevant to this meeting and group of people’ than having to spell it all out.

        (I am ex-military though and sometimes miss speaking in TLA’s with occasional Pro-Words. There’s two of us on the work chat now and we became instant besties over our shared language, it was lovely)

      4. Wendy Darling*

        I am cruel and arbitrary. I love some jargon (e.g. I looooove the metaphor of “bandwidth”) but hate other bits, and there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to why other than “the first time I heard this it was said by someone who annoys me or in a context I find annoying”.

        Also I looked for work for so long and read so many job listings that every time I see the phrase “highly motivated self-starter” I want to throw my laptop out the window.

    15. Parse*

      Strategy. 9/10 times, people around here use it as an interchangeable term for “plan” or “outline”.

    16. Not a Real Giraffe*

      The only one that really infuriates me is, “let’s take this offline,” when we are… in fact… offline.

      People, this terms means “let’s talk about this in person instead of in this group email thread,” not “let’s chat 1:1 on this in another meeting outside of this current meeting.”

      1. Penny*

        Ha. I said the same thing and that’s the same reason it drives me crazy. The first time I heard it I thought to myself, “Wait, are people talking about this stuff online?”

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Ha! I must’ve not refreshed in time to see yours. I like the visual of everyone in a meeting together, laptops open, emailing/IMing about a topic, and then announcing in the meeting, “let’s take this offline!”

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        @Not a Real Giraffe. Great Minds. I typed my response at the same time you typed yours.

      4. Wendy Darling*

        I worked at a job where people said “let’s take this offline” in in-person meetings to mean “let’s discuss this 1:1 over IM or email”.

        I knew what they meant and I try not to engage in language peevery generally, but come on guys.

        Also my current company is remote and people totally say “let’s take this offline” even though online is literally the only way any of us ever discuss anything. I have just mentally mapped it to “let’s stop wasting this large group’s time with this topic that is not relevant to the majority of them.”

        1. stephistication1*

          Yes because we all know that one person that will hijack a meeting with something only specific to them.

    18. CCF*

      Leverage.

      I have two internal clients who use this all the time. In a meeting last year I kept a tally sheet of their buzz words. In an hour, between the two of them, they used “leverage” 27 times. Most of these times “use” was completely appropriate. “Hey, can we leverage that brochure for our event?” My only worry is that they will find some other term that’s even worse.

      1. stephistication1*

        I keep a tally of how many times someone says “open concept” on House Hunters. People look so clueless when they say that. Just say open floor plan and move on…

    19. DCompliance*

      Another one is “I need to see your universe”. That really narrows it down for people. I am sure they can provide you an email containing the universe by the end of the day.

      1. stephistication1*

        I have not heard that one before and i despise “end of day.” FYI, my EOD is later then most because I tend to work late (by choice) so don’t assume EOD is 5pm in all cases!

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Many a time I have clarified “Do you mean end of day as in 5pm, or end of day as in before you arrive at your desk tomorrow morning?”

          Those are very different timelines.

        2. Duckles*

          I commented above but I have always understood end of day to mean literally “before work begins the next morning”, so I regularly deliver items EOD between 7pm-11pm and have never gotten the sense that isn’t what’s intended… I don’t think it’s a synonym for 5pm in my experience.

    20. stephistication1*

      If you cant tell by my responses, I am loving this. Than you!

      I’d like to add:
      50 foot view
      High-level

    21. zora*

      A colleague used the word “socialize” approximately 2,986 times on a conference call this week. As in “we will socialize the plan next week”. I wanted to scream.

        1. zora*

          Exaggerating slightly of course, but she clearly could not conceive of using a different verb because she just kept saying it over and over. “We want to socialize the plan next week. But there are a lot of people out, so it might not be the best week do socialize the plan. But hopefully once we socialize this, we’ll get more buy-in. So, who is going to socialize the plan?”

          I was actually biting my lip to keep myself from laughing.. or screaming…

    22. Stormy*

      –Br

      Are you cold, or offering me best regards? And how superior can these regards actually be, if you’re too busy to actually type the entire words one time in your saved e-mail signature?

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I haven’t seen BR for “best regards” before. My grand boss uses his initials instead of typing his four letter first name — unfortunately, those initials also happen to be an old abbreviation for Just Kidding. So my department has taken to joking that boss is “just kidding” all the time. He knows about it too, but keeps doing it even though we giggle like middle-schoolers.

    23. Elizabeth West*

      Not really an expression, but I hate the word utilize. It sounds pretentious and overdone to me. Just say use.

      “Don’t use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do.”

      ― Mark Twain

      1. zora*

        This has been my dad’s biggest pet peeve for years. When he did more copyediting, he said it was always his first search and replace, and he would some times get reports with “Utilize” in there hundreds of times.

      2. Bex*

        I don’t mind “utilize” when it’s used correctly. It *should* refer to practical and efficient use, but these days people seem to use (no pun intended!) it more as a synonym for “use.”

      1. Bex*

        I always like asking people what they mean by “scale.” If the project is about achieving scale but the leader can’t define what scale we are trying to get to, then I know we’re probably screwed.

    25. NW Mossy*

      The one I’m struggling with now is “attrite,” which appears to be used as the verb form of “attrition.” We’re reducing headcount by not backfilling roles when people leave voluntarily or are fired for cause (“natural attrition”), and somehow that became “as people attrite.” Oh, it’s horrid.

    26. Massmatt*

      “Employee engagement”. I’ve never seen any expressed concern about it result in any improvement, even in the rare instance where it’s defined in any real or measurable way.

    27. sara*

      six of one, half a dozen of the other.
      Someone I work with uses that phrase in almost every meeting and it’s so grating…

      1. Bex*

        Because EOD by itself doesn’t always explain when the deadline actually is. If you work for a geographically dispersed company, it has no specific meaning. Is it 5pm Eastern or Pacific? Or is 8pm OK? Or does it just mean that it needs to be done before the London team gets to work in the morning? What about Hong Kong/Tokyo where it’s already tomorrow?

        1. Close Bracket*

          I take it as midnight for me that day unless told otherwise. People who didn’t tell me otherwise are frequently surprised when it’s not done by 5. Me: “What? Day’s not over.”

    29. DinoLansbury*

      I really hate “let’s take this offline” when we are SITTING IN A MEETING ROOM DISCUSSING IN PERSON. There is no ONline!

    31. Scubacat*

      Do me a solid.

      For some reason, the phrase makes me think of poop. Dear sir/madam/cyborg are you asking me to defecate?

    32. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t mind most of these unless they are overused. Some of the lingo is a handy short cut. Over use is a dependence problem.

      One thing that I cannot get use to is an industry specific thing. I cannot get used to the idea that we do not say “the” doctor anymore, we say just doctor. “Doctor wants you to come back in a few weeks.” or “Doctor is running a half hour behind today.” The first person who did this I wondered if she did not realize that her sentence sound bizarre without “the” in front of doctor. Then, oh wow, I realized no, they all are doing this. They are using Doctor as if it’s his name given at birth. It sounds so weird to me that I lose some of what they are saying.

      1. Someone else*

        As far as I know, you can see this type of usage in the medical profession going back to the 50s. My understanding is that this usage is more an example of dropping the surname from “Dr. Surname is running half an hour behind today” than it is dropping the “the” from “The doctor is running half an hour behind today.”

    34. Lady Alys*

      “Reach out” instead of “call” or “contact” – and my spouse uses it during conference calls when working from home ugh.

  34. GigglyPuff*

    I have a phone interview coming up soon for a job I’m really interested in. One thing I’m wondering if I can say better or need advice is articulating, convincing them that the move wouldn’t be a problem for me. I live in the South and this job is up North. I’m a little worried that I might be knocked down a little on the list because I have no family or friends in area. But I’m very much in a job (and a place in my life), where I can go where the job is and pretty much know I can live anywhere for a few years as long as the job isn’t the issue.

    So it saying something along the lines of “Looking for new opportunities, and wanting to live/explore new places” an okay way to put it?

    How have other people convinced employers to hire them to different geographic locations when they have no connection to the area, and I’m sure there’s plenty of possible candidates closer that are just as qualified?

    1. Library-ish*

      Good on you for getting an interview without any ties to the area, I know that can be hard! I think your statement sounds good but maybe add something specific about that city or even that organization that makes you want to work there. “Exploring new places” could come off like you want to go anywhere.

      1. michelenyc*

        I agree. Definitely do not say exploring new places. I would take that as you plan to only stay in the position for a short time and then head off to somewhere else.

        Please make sure you research and visit the city where the company is located. I hired someone that moved from Dallas to NYC. Even after having numerous conversations with her that there would be no relocation and I needed someone that would be around for a few years. She still moved back to Dallas after 6 months because she was shocked at how expensive it was here. I was irritated because I was very upfront about how much it actually cost to live here. I can honestly say that if I am ever in this situation again I will more than likely not move forward with an out of town candidate because of this experience. There would have to be something very special about them.

      2. GigglyPuff*

        Thanks!
        Sorry my question was kinda early morning non-specific. This is definitely not a word for word how I would say it. I also found my interview notes, and do already have few things like: state govt. to academic, smaller town w/ why that town, examples of why they are what I’m looking for. I guess I just wanted to make sure those reasons would be enough.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      One thing to also think about is how common hiring out of towners is for the business. For example, in academics, everyone assumes you’re willing to move for the job, because you pretty much always have too. So, that’s another thing to consider.

      However, I think mentioning that you’re interested in the place as well as the position can be helpful. Your language sounds a little canned and vague to me. Maybe something like, “I’m really interested in this position because (reason, reason reason) and I have (reason) to be interested in (place).”

    3. Kathenus*

      I’ve moved for jobs numerous times, and hire people from other parts of the country regularly due to my niche field. I’d address what reasons you have for wanting to move to that area – “I currently live in the South but prefer living in Northern climates with a change of seasons” or whatever might apply to your situation. And second michelenyc with researching the new area to make sure it is somewhere you’d like to live – I’ll never hire people who don’t at least visit for an interview these days – earlier in my career one of my employers hired people from phone interviews and it didn’t usually end well with someone from a very different type of area. I always try to let an employer know why I want to work for them – which might include the locale, organization, specific position, etc.; and why I think that I’d be an asset in and qualified for the role. Good luck!

  35. selina kyle*

    The winter weather (ice! everywhere!) has made getting around hard and it’s frustrating to have to come into work only to get call after call of people cancelling appointments/meetings. It makes me jealous that I couldn’t do the same (though I do have a mild amount of leave). Plus – the office is cold!
    It’s all minor annoyances at the end of the day, but it still grinds my gears a smidge.

    1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      My office is running super-short-staffed because of all the sickies getting sick at the same time.
      The company takes good care of its employees, and I feel bad for the sickies because getting sick sucks hard, but it’s still kinda annoying to have to cover extra positions because we have so many people out. Luckily, most of what’s going around here is not what has been so devastating elsewhere (no flu yet, just standard colds and respiratory infections).
      Boss gave those of us on support staff a pizza day while our team of 12 was down to 3, and I’ve been approved overtime so I can skip clocking out for lunch and keep the phones covered while the others are lunching. (I’m totally cool with this since I never go anywhere, and just eat at my desk anyway.)

  36. Unsanitary Conditions*

    I was catching up on letters and found it super interesting that it’s illegal to not have running water/bathrooms at your place of employment, without a solution like a portable bathroom in place. Recently our location, a building open to the public, had to turn off the water for “up to 6-8 hours” and we were told that employees could take the time to go to the gas station or pharmacy near us and that we were to tell the public they could just go ahead and use the bathrooms. It ended up only being off for 2 hours but I personally thought this was a horrible decision and unsanitary, but everyone I spoke with, including HR, said it’s “not illegal” but “common sense” to close when you don’t have water, so there wasn’t anything we could do except warn people when they came into the building. HR also reminded me I was allowed to leave to use the bathroom elsewhere.

    My question: does the OSHA guidelines hold for even 2 hours of being without water? And does anyone know the exact OSHA documents this comes from? The article linked in the earlier letter this week is helpful but I’d also like to bring the exact OSHA guideline to HR/Big Boss. Every time I’ve brought up the question of closing due to water it’s insinuated that I just want the day off from work, which isn’t true – I actually enjoy coming here, but not without working bathrooms!

    1. Enough*

      I am putting links in the following thread. The information is from OSHA’s website. I have not read the links but hopefully some in there is what you are looking for.

      1. Enough*

        https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/restrooms_sanitation/

        OSHA requires employers to provide all workers with sanitary and immediately-available toilet facilities (restrooms). The sanitation standards (29 CFR 1910.141, 29 CFR 1926.51 and 29 CFR 1928.110) are intended to ensure that workers do not suffer adverse health effects that can result if toilets are not sanitary and/or are not available when needed.
        Information in parenthesis are links on the web site.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      The standard is a little flexible, and it can sometimes depend on your employer and your job tasks. So no water in a restaurant, a hospital, etc. for 2 hours? Unacceptable. In a standard office park for routine maintenance? Might be more ok if there’s drinking water available (e.g., a literal water cooler).

      1. Unsanitary Conditions*

        As far as I was told the only water we had at the time was the connection to our fire sprinklers, which obviously doesn’t provide actual water for bathroom/restroom use. We don’t have water coolers and at the time, they planned for the water to be off for 6-8 hours, it just happened to only take 2 to fix the problem.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Yeah, that’s not reasonable. Although ask me about the time I worked for the feds (who were not subject to the same OSHA regs) and they pulled that nonsense on us for 2 days.

    3. LCL*

      The whole point of calling OSHA for bad conditions is to get them to make the employer fix/stop/start doing something. If the problem is in the past I’m not sure what continued discussion will accomplish. Unless this is a recurring problem?

  37. Myrin*

    I have a second part-time job!!

    I’ve been halfheartedly searching for one for months but I’m now at the point where, if it went on like it did before, my financial situation would become extremely dire, so a second job alongside my longtime regular part-time job was much needed.
    It went so fast suddenly – got a call on Monday, went to an interview on Wednesday, will do a test run next Wednesday and should everything go alright (which I’m assuming it will), I’ll be starting come February. It’s “only” putting stuff away at a supermarket/chemist’s in the town I went to school at but I immediately clicked with the boss, I’ve been going there literally all my life and have always enjoyed the atmosphere, it’s ten hours a week which is just the right amount for me to be able to continuously work on my dissertation still, and, well, money. Puts me in the most unfortunate tax bracket but really, more money is more money.

    I’m so excited and relieved and happy!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I have to be honest. I love jobs like what you’re describing. I find them really relaxing and I never take them home with me.

      Congratulations.

      1. Myrin*

        I’m exactly the same. I’ll never understand it when people complain about these jobs not being “mentally stimulating” or something similar – I absolutely don’t need that! I could do a boring job where I don’t have to think much for the rest of my life! I have absolutely no problem doing repetitive tasks all day and then going home and enjoying my free time. (Which so many people almost seem to be unable to believe – as I hinted at, I’m working on my doctorate right now, which obviously requires a lot of thinking and theory and other more-or-less boring whatnot, so people naturally assume I love that and don’t want to do “dumb” tasks when in fact, I’d much rather do these!)

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        Me too! I think I’ve menrioned the blissful job I got after I burned out where I sorted and shredded paperwork all day.

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      Hooray! I’m happy for you. Plus, sometimes those “only putting stuff away” jobs are good. I like that stuff because it engages one part of my brain, and leaves the rest clear for thinking about more creative stuff, if that makes sense? It’s a nice brain break, for sure.

  38. Candi*

    I think I might have one reason why some people put household duties on resumes. The other day I was reading one of the posts/threads about stay-at-home-moms returning to the workforce and putting things like “head of (household) accounting” or “CEO of [family]” on their resumes.

    This triggered a memory of way back, about 14 or so years ago, when I was getting DSHS assistance and participating in the WorkFirst program. (Participating, being a full-time student, or working a minimum of 15 hours a week was essential to continuing to get cash assistance, unless profoundly disabled.)

    So. In WorkFirst orientation, we received a spiral-bound book. The first page contained a heading, a small picture of a house at the bottom, an intro, and four columns of 10-12 point font of jobs and job types.

    The intro said something to the effect that if you did these things for the household, you had the foundation to do these things for the workplace. This program was primarily geared to young single mothers who’d never worked and older women returning to or trying to enter the workforce after years as a housewife. (The ratio of men was very low all through my time in the program.)

    Thing is, the speaker specifically said NOT to put household duties on a resume or application. And the next few pages of the book, and the bulk of the presentation, was about the 6 month to 2 year programs, at which colleges that DSHS would pay for, to get the women back in the workforce. I was rather amused and impressed by one program; a two-year certification in social work, upon which the person could interview with DSHS itself for entry-level. If hired, DSHS would pay for two more years to get a full undergrad degree.

    But lists like that, plus people not listening or not being told that that household stuff does not go, might explain a few people’s placing such duties on their resume.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      That’s an interesting observation. I didn’t know about that. I thought it was just bad career advice from columnists, etc. I can see where it would be misleading.

      1. Candi*

        Their overall advice was pretty good for the time. Although I was very happy when I found this site and found objectives can now go burn. :P :)

  39. Anonymous*

    Residency Match Day is only two months away now and it’s making us incredibly anxious. My spouse is the med student and I work in biopharma R&D. If the match goes how we hope, we’ll have 3 months to find a new place to live and move across the country. I will need to find a new job and that’s the part driving me insane. My last job search took ages and I’m worried that 3 months isn’t enough time. Can I start applying now or is it too early? Especially since we might not actually end up in the area that we want to be in. Should I explain this in a cover letter? Or just apply as if we were certain about the move? Our ideal location is a very high cost of living area and I can’t afford to be out of work.

    1. PR for Now*

      I’d go ahead and start looking at available positions in the area you think you may end up. I don’t think it’s too early as hiring can take months. I wouldn’t mention anything in your cover letter related to the move other than “I am relocating to X city in May 2018”. You don’t need to go into too much detail, even in an interview you can say that you’re moving for your spouse’s job. If you end up not moving to that city and you’re interviewing for a position there, you can withdraw your candidacy. It happens. Additionally, I wouldn’t accept an offer in that city until after Residency Match Day.

      Best of luck to you and your husband!

    2. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      Hmmm – this is tricky. For “civilians” :-) medical students match to their training programs kind of like a dating site. After interviewing, med students and programs submit a list (students list the programs they want in order of preference and programs do it with medical students). On match day (usually around the Ides of March – irony there Caesar), the future docs learn where they are going to train as a resident physician. A student’s list can be full of residencies is many different states. It is not like a job where you get a offer / contract after an interview, can accept, high five and know where you are going. There are a lot of stressed medical students (and residency programs) now until March. For your job, perhaps consider applying to a few places in your partner’s top 3 places? You can have the cover letter and CV ready for positions and start the process by sending it out to open positions. If the timing is right, lucky, etc. you may know your match, right around the time you might be getting interviews – which can save you $$. You don’t want to spend oodles interviewing when you do not have a destination (for the non-medical folks, interviewing for residency training can be incredibly expensive for med students – talking thousands of dollars for a ‘date-match’ by computer). For the cover letter, I would not mention partner’s residency, more focus on stuff like Allison says – what can you say in your cover letter that is not evidenced in your cv? Why that company / that job / location etc (without the residency part – heck, your spouse is applying in the area…) . Chances are you then go to a phone interview before an in person interview. You could potentially have the process started for a few locations before March. And – I remember mine, just getting that CV and those cover letters ready will be huge because most of us love to delay writing those things. FYI – I work both in IT, medicine / academics and just remembering the match brings up a primitive stress response like a sabertooth tiger just strolled by and smiled. Good luck!

    3. Anony*

      Start applying now. If you have to pull your application later then you can. Hiring can take a while so I don’t think it hurts. It is an uncomfortable position to be in.

    4. Book Lover*

      Knowing his med school and the residency program he is interested in, he should have a good idea if he will get into his first choice or if it is a reach. Assuming his first choice is likely, I don’t see any harm in starting to apply now, though you might have to be willing to start before him depending on how quickly you get a position and how flexible they are.

  40. Long time lurker*

    I’m going to start applying for jobs soon, so faking doctor appointments for interviews will not be fun. I feel pretty certain that my “appointments” excuse will be obvious. :/

    On top of that, my brain insisted that I need some time off next week after a business trip against all logic, so I’m going to have to be careful with rationing my remaining PTO. I’m stressed about the trip and might get a good dose of anxiety next week since I’m not a good presenter, but fingers crossed it goes well and feels quick.

    And of course I can’t write a comment without asking for some wisdom from the wise, more experienced readers of AAM. Do you have any advice for someone who feels super self conscious asking for PTO, even when I’m not lying for an interview? I know it’s silly, but I keep experiencing it. And lying just makes it harder.

    1. Recently Diagnosed*

      Ooooh, you are singing the song of my people! I used to get SO NERVOUS about asking for days off that I would get nearly sick with the anxiety! There’s no easy fix, but what helped me was making sure that, every time I did it, I spent time thinking about how it had turned out alright. How no one looked at my strangely or was upset at me for asking. Over time, I ended up realizing that it was ok and normal for me to ask for these days, that work would go on without me, and I wasn’t letting anyone down for asking. Through therapy, I realized that it was the fear of inconveniencing others that was triggering the anxiety. I’m still in the process of prioritizing myself, but trust me, it helps. Focus on how everyone else finds it normal. Then move on to focusing on how you have every right to ask for your earned days off. It’s a process, but it’s working.

    2. Penny*

      I just went through this recently while interviewing for my new job (I started a week ago!). Basically, I found it easier to simply request time off for an “appointment” and not give any details. Don’t make up elaborate lies about what you’re doing or where you’ve been. You don’t owe anybody an explanation about how you use your time off. Also, you are ALLOWED to ask for time off! You have the time, it’s yours, it’s there to use, it’s okay.

    3. Tea Fish*

      I write myself a script! Even when it’s perfectly normal and legitimate requests for PTO. And in my script I let myself go nuts with the possibilities– if they interrogate me on where I’m going and why, what am I gonna say to sound polished and not get to a babbling TMI? If they don’t want to give me the time (which has literally never happened BTW), how would I respond? If I decided to push back, what would I say?

      The actual request for PTO has only ever taken something like 30 seconds– “Hey boss, I’d like to be out X to Y– is that alright?” But that’s because I wrote the script to sound cool and relaxed about it, and I can feel at least a little more “in control” of the situation, having prepped for all the variables!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Practice your presentation in front of the mirror.
      Practice asking for PTO in front of the mirror.
      Think of it as getting used to the sound of your own voice all over again.

      With PTO sometimes I let myself off the hook by filling out the form, handing the form to the boss and letting the boss read it.

      It could be that you have a double whammy going on. You are worried about what the boss would say and you are worried if you will be mad at you later on for taking the time. If this is the case, decide to let yourself up for air. If you pick wrong, tell yourself you made the best decision you could at that time.

  41. extra anon today*

    I am in the middle of a background check process that is very intense. It’s actually a background investigation, being investigated by a police officer. He has sent a 4 page questionnaire to every boss I’ve ever had and to every member of my family, six former coworkers, and six close friends. I feel bad because I didn’t know going in that he would be asking for so much time from so many people. I know they are trying to do due diligence, but this is a civilian position, where I won’t have access to any classified materials. It all seems a bit much and I worry that some people who got the form will resent me for having to spend so much time on it.

    1. Tara*

      If it makes you feel better, most people who were contacted during getting my security clearance found the process amusing. It’s typically a novel experience, and I had a couple people tell me later they they almost laughed when they were asked if I was likely to overthrow the government. And the people who conduct these clearance investigations are pretty used to the range of responses, so if one of your coworkers is ruffled or takes forever to respond, the investigator is used to it. Sometimes you can send thank you notes, if it makes you feel better, but I don’t feel they are required.

      1. Stormy*

        “Tara is an optimistic go-getter. I can totally see her overthrowing the government, if that was expected of her within her daily job duties.”

        1. Tara*

          Lol. I did have to ask one friend “you didn’t make jokes to the government official, right? RIGHT??”

        2. Judy (since 2010)*

          My husband once said he was tempted to reply to a question with “I have no knowledge that Stormy has hacked into a government server. If you’re asking whether he has the abilities to hack into a government server, I believe he could.”

      2. Emalia*

        Yes!

        Years ago, a FBI agent showed up at my place of work and asked to speak to me. Turns out I was listed as a reference for someone I had worked with in a previous position who needed security clearance. We spoke for about an hour. I found the questions hilarious given the candidate he was vetting.

        I love telling this story.

      4. periwinkle*

        I was interviewed for a friend’s security clearance and was floored by that question. What, wait, no, of everyone I know, he’s probably the least likely to overthrow any government! I said it kind of like that, then realized that I’d just implied that I have calculated the likelihood of my other friends to incite a revolution…

        (which of course led to amusing myself later by classifying my friends of rebellion potential; this guy seriously was in the bottom 5% of risk)

    2. zora*

      Maybe it’s different because he’s in DC, but my Dad has had to go through a clearance investigation a couple different times, and no one has ever been mad or resentful about it! Most people like to help other people, and they wish the best for him and want him to have a great job! It wouldn’t bother me, either, if you were my friend.

      So, I hope your friends and coworkers are the same, if they are good people they will be supportive of you and glad to help even if it’s a lot of work for a little while. Good luck on the job!!!

    3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I think preparing people for the process can really help. For example, when an FBI agent showed up at my house to interview me about an ex-roommate’s husband’s job application, I was pretty stunned (I still gave him a resounding recommendation). But I think people with experience filling these things out also know that you’re not the reason it’s four pages long—it’s the bureaucracy. It can be a PITA, but I usually don’t hold it against the applicant.

    4. OBMD*

      I live in the DC area where many people have to undergo periodic background checks. Several of my neighbors need these checks, and I have done interviews about them. The investigators showed up at my door unannounced, showed ID and we then had a 30 minute conversation with the oddest questions. I was not annoyed at all. Your friends, family, and coworkers want you to succeed and will help.

    5. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      If it makes you feel better, you can reach out to everyone and explain that you didn’t know the process would take up so much of their time. You can apologize for the inconvenience, and thank them for their time and support. I think it’ll be fine. :)

  42. Big Hair No Heart*

    Question to anyone familiar with free gym membership as an employee benefit: is it standard/good business practice to revoke the benefit if an employee isn’t using it enough?

    I work in a small non-profit of just 3 people including myself. One of my benefits is free gym membership at a local gym, which is great. The cost to the business is just over $500. I used my membership on and off at the start of 2017, regularly in the summer (I completed couch to 5K!), and then took some time off in the fall due to mental health issues (my boss does not know about my mental health and I don’t want to tell him). I started going again in December, but noticed that my ID code wasn’t being accepted. The staff let me into the building anyway because they assumed I was entering it wrong. This week, that happened again and I finally asked what was up. They told me my membership had been cancelled.

    I spoke to my boss about it the next day. Apparently when he went in to renew my membership in November, he asked them when the last time I had used it was. They said August, but did not tell him at all how frequently I had used it before that. He then decided to cancel it and see how long it would take me to notice!!!! He said it was “inappropriate” for me to have not used the gym for so long, and that since we are a small non-profit, we cannot waste money like this. I told him A) I was never aware that there were conditions associated with this benefit and he should have told me that if he expected me to follow them, therefore, I did not agree with his assessment that I had done something “inappropriate.” B) I was upset he had cancelled a benefit without informing me in advance and then testing me to see how long it took me to notice (talk about “inappropriate”). C) I wish he would have talked to me about this and told me his plans so I could have explained myself accurately before he cancelled it.

    He certainly did not agree with all my points, but in the end, he agreed to renew my membership for the year, and warned me that I would not continue to receive it unless I use it regularly. I understand that he has the legal right to have done this, but it strikes me as incredibly shitty. He has displayed micromanagement over my time/work and extreme penny pinching before, but never at this level. It makes me think he does not trust, respect, or value me (the $500 would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost he will likely incur while trying to replace me, since this has given me the kick in the ass I needed to really start job searching).

    I am considering bringing this to the board’s attention during my exit interview when I eventually leave, but I need another outlook here to make sure my gut feeling is correct. For those familiar with this kind of benefit, is it at all normal for it to be conditional? If so, would you just expect your employee to know that (this was never mentioned to me until this conversation, nor is it mentioned in our handbook). Finally, just how bad is it to take away an employee’s benefit without advance notice?

    1. KayEss*

      I’ve never had a benefit of that kind before, but it strikes me as… yeah, pretty darn terrible as a policy. If he wants to penny-pinch and not pay for people who aren’t using it without looking like a gigantic Scrooge, it should be a discount or subsidized membership that the employee pays a part of.

    2. WellRed*

      A benefit should never be taken away without notice and certainly not at the whim of the micromanager, especially as, like you say, there was a health problem that prevented you from using it temporarily. Which is not his biz.

    3. fposte*

      Yeah, that’s obnoxious. I think there are ways to achieve a similar end without being such a jerk about it.

    4. CatCat*

      It’s pretty bad and, from your description, also part of a pattern (“He has displayed micromanagement over my time/work and extreme penny pinching before”). If the board is made up of reasonable people, I’d think they’d want to know of the pattern and this could be an illustrative example.

    5. Big Hair No Heart*

      Oh I have an update to this already! My boss just handed me a contract to sign stating that in order to continue receiving the benefit I must “utilize the health club facility a minimum of 12 times per month” and if I “fail to meet this requirement in 2 consecutive months, [company] may discontinue the benefit for that employee.” Guess he finally realized that it’s not a good look to just make up a policy without any documentation whatsoever!

      By the way, that’s an average of 2.7 x a week, which is a lot! I fully intend on signing this but maintaining my current workout schedule. Thankfully, I can just go to the gym, sign in and then immediately leave a few times a month to meet the requirement, because they don’t keep track of when you exit the building.

      Just thought y’all might appreciate my boss’s response. Good grief.

      1. CheeryO*

        That’s a lot! What if you were a total gym rat but got injured and needed to take some time off, or if you went on a long trip one month? I’d just do the quick check-in too, but it’s obnoxious that you have to do that.

      2. zora*

        Wow.
        Yeah, that’s not normal to have a benefit work like that. Your boss is totally a jerk.

        But that is entertaining, so thank you for sharing the update!

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Your boss sounds like a real class act. I think this is ridiculous as is providing a “benefit” and then forcing people to adhere to your preferences on how it’s used.

    6. Ainomiaka*

      I think it’s one thing to have “will be canceled after x months of inactivity” in the boilerplate contract info. But him just deciding? Not normal.

    7. Anony*

      What a jerk! We get our gym membership reimbursed if we use it a certain number of times a year. I think it is something like 200. I think that policy is fine so long as they are upfront about it. It is an incentive to get us to actually go to the gym. The way your boss did it is a punishment rather than incentive.

    8. Dankar*

      Good lord! No, that is so not normal. And your update below? I’m suspicious that he has the authority to just make up a contract to apply to an existing benefit.

      Most gyms have a snooze button on membership payments that you can use if a health condition prevents you from using their services. All you need is a note from a doctor stating how long you’ll be unable to. If you’re comfortable bringing that up to your boss without going into detail about what it was that kept you from going, you could tell him that next time you need to take a break from the gym, you’re more than willing to go through the process of halting payments while you’re not using the membership.

      Kudos, though, for realizing that it’s time to start looking elsewhere for a manager who will respect you!

    9. NW Mossy*

      That seems really off to me for a typical gym where you pay by the month and can go as much or as little as you want during that period. This could make sense if it’s a facility where you pay by the class (like a yoga studio) and they’re paying for you to attend X classes within Y time period, and any unused are truly wasted. Doesn’t sound like that’s your situation, though.

      But, yeah, your boss handled it badly. Most benefits are provided on the understanding that not all employees will use them, and any limitations on their use (caps, pre-approval, eligibility or reimbursement requirements, etc.) are explained upfront. The strings attached here are much more heavy-handed than they need to be if cost is the true concern.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Your boss does not really understand how to manage.
      Wait for you to notice? Really?

      Do not do this/ You could quit by not showing up and wait for him to notice before saying anything. /do not do this.

      I think you are handling it as best as can be expected given the givens. Bosses who lead in this manner invite this type of response.

      I dunno, maybe you can ask him, “I did 27 repetitions on X machine [ or spent y amount of time on z machine]! How much did you do this week?”

      Does everyone else have to use the gym 12 times a month in order to retain their benefit, too?
      It’s not really a benefit if it’s a use it or lose it sort of deal, maybe you could point this out.

    11. pandq*

      Apologies if this question is too far off topic, but isn’t gym membership to an off-site gym a taxable benefit?

  43. KayEss*

    Just worked out that when a (persistently clueless) colleague asked me to update some information earlier this week, he didn’t mean on the organization’s website–he wanted me to locate the (former) graphic designer’s files, update the information, and prepare the new version for print. I’m the web designer. “Web” is in my title. No one in his department has ever been directed to go to me for print updates.

    But they laid off or did not replace the entire graphic design team over the past six months, so… I guess I’m supposed to magically manifest those skills. (Fortunately or unfortunately, I actually do have those skills… but I’m still considering waiting a few hours and then going back to him like “Nope, sorry, couldn’t figure it out, good luck!”)

    1. Work Wardrobe*

      Is it a hardship for you to do the work? Might look like you’re willing to pitch in and help as needed.

      1. KayEss*

        If I had any intention of staying at this job at this point, I would. But I actually hate doing print design, I hate that they let the entire graphic design team leave without any kind of plan for continuing their work, I hate that the director(!) silently took over these tasks between the last graphic designer leaving and her own resignation, I hate that the request was so casual rather than acknowledging that there is no one else left to do this work, and it is their fault and I hate this guy in particular. I also don’t know where any of the files are, the graphic design team had a lot of idiosyncratic processes that got more idiosyncratic as they deteriorated, and absolutely nothing is documented and there’s no one left to ask–so it’s a huge pain in the butt for something that is not the job I was hired to do.

        I’ll hold my nose and do it anyway, but god help them all when my job search turns up something.

        1. KayEss*

          Bit of both? This was a really good job when I started a year ago, but the dysfunction started bleeding down from the top about six months in and I had one foot out the door already at this point. I was only surprised by this to the extent that I thought they were a BIT smarter than that… given the sheer number of emails I had to turn around and send saying essentially “sorry, turns out that I, the only person on staff with these skills, will no longer be able to complete the urgent project/request we were discussing, good luck”.

          They responded to low sales figures and reduced revenue by dissolving the marketing department without a solid plan to continue our work, they deserve what they get.

  44. Anon for Stress Relief*

    I’ve been posting on and off in these threads for the last few months about the deteriorating situation at my institution. In my last update before the holidays, I had decided to start job searching. Since then I’ve had several interviews and I have a final interview this afternoon for a position I am really interested in! Cross your fingers for me!

  45. Seasonal work advice?*

    My husband accepted a great job in another state and we are moving in a few months. We’re very excited! But we are moving from a big city with lots of job opportunities to a smaller town with fewer opportunities. I’ve looked at job postings in the new town for a role similar to my current one. There are presently three job openings and two are seasonal/temporary. The town we’re moving to actually has my current industry over-represented when you look at all the companies there, but a lot of the work is seasonal. I’ve only ever worked full time. Any advice for transitioning from a full time economy to a seasonal economy?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      When I moved here I moved to an area adjacent to a vacation spot. This means boom/bust cycles for employment. Initially, I took a lot of seasonal jobs just to stay employed. My emotions yo-yo’ed with my employment. It was hard.

      If you must work or if you prefer to work, then go ahead with the seasonal job and never, ever stop looking for permanent work. This was hard for me because I was so flipping tired after some of these jobs I could not come home and job hunt. Build a plan where you use your days off or other compromise solution so that you keep looking.

      Put as much money away as you can for the unemployment season.
      As you make new friends let them know that you are looking for something year round. Ask them to let you know if they hear of something.
      Be that extraordinary worker so that you are laid off last. One job I had it down to two months of lay off.

      Remember in smaller, rural areas everything you say/do gets repeated and it goes right around. When you are speaking to one person talk to them as if everyone in the world can hear you. If you can do this, it will carry you far. People will notice that you don’t gossip/malign others and people will notice your interests in things around you. This takes time, but it does work.

  46. Dee Dee*

    Interesting week, I guess.

    I’ve been a bit frustrated at work with some changes that have been ongoing but they have kind of settled down. I still don’t feel totally comfortable with the future of my team, but I think things are a bit better. But in the midst of that a guy I’ve done some freelance work for in the past approached me about maybe joining his company full-time . It’s intriguing: they do interesting work, and I like working with them, but I’d probably have to commute about two hours once a week or so.

    I’m considering it, but it’s a small company and probably less stable than the giant enterprise I’m working for now. I don’t have a formal offer or anything yet. I’m intrigued, buy the travel is a bit concerning.
    Anyway, I think things hinge on 1) the job offer and 2) what my career path looks like with my company. I tried to get information about 2 on the down-low from my manager but he didn’t have any solid answers. I think I’m at the top of my my job rate but there’s not a more senior position in my role (unless my manager leaves).

    So I don’t know. Very confused. Where do I go to get advise abut these kinds of questions?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Nail down that drive first. I would do this by taking the drive on a good day to see what I think. For me, the money would have to be super-duper in order to consider this.

      If you do the drive and think it might be okay, then continue on in further discussions with this new company. Collect up facts. Knowing more facts will help push your decision one way or another.

      OTH, keep going with your current company to find out from your boss how you will continue to grow with your current company. Notice I say grow. This can mean a lot of things. What does growth look like to you? What types of growth opportunities would encourage you to stay?

      Last. The job offer is not the only company out there. Find out what they are offering you and see if it makes sense. Part of your indecision might be from not talking with other employers, possibly? So baby steps here.
      See if this new job looks like something you will succeed at. Don’t take a job where you are not sure or know you won’t succeed.

  47. Snark*

    So five years ago, I taught a seminar/field trip series on climate change and ecological restoration at a local science museum. It went incredibly well and I loved doing it. Fast forward through three moves and half a decade, feeling a little unfulfilled and bored and I just up and decided I wanted do it again. Got in contact with some folks last night to test the waters, and the response was “Rad. Still got your slides? Wanna start in a month?” I can’t wait.

    1. Merci Dee*

      OMG, I wish I lived near you! I would =love= to get involved in a series like this! Let me know if you decide to take your show on the road! :)

    2. Library-ish*

      Congratulations! That sounds like it would be really fun and hoping give you something to look forward to when you’re feeling bored.

  48. Lady Jay*

    So I know I’m way behind culturally, but . . . I started watching The Office this week (US version). I’m far enough in (about four episodes?) to have developed warm feelings towards some of the characters but I also find it nearly unwatchable, because Michael/Dwight’s behavior is so cringeworthy. I keep imagining what Alison would advise the characters, and it’s never anything good!

    Anyone else have this reaction to the Office?

    Office Space is similar, though I find that one funnier for reasons unknown.

    1. Penny*

      Season one is like that – the characters aren’t fully developed and more like caricatures, especially Michael. In season two everyone becomes much more human and you will be shocked at how moving some episodes can be. It gets so good, I promise.

      Of course, part of the humour is that Michael is a terrible boss and does ridiculous things sometimes, but I love it.

      1. CCF*

        Absolutely. Season 1 tries to be the UK version too much. S2 gets the show into its own groove. The next couple seasons are then great.

        1. Tara*

          Season 1 is the exact same scripts as the UK version, which I think is why it comes off poorly to a lot of US viewers – just a different brand of humor. Like everyone says, it warms up a bit in later seasons, although you might find it cringe-worthy the whole time ;)

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            That’s what “Life On Mars” did, and it was really a turn off. Your standard street cop in 1974 in the UK spoke very differently to that same person in the US. The writing called too much attention to itself and we couldn’t relax into the show. I regretted not liking the US version, because I did like all the actors. Oh well, I *adored* the UK version and when John Simm turned up on Doctor Who (as The Master), I was so excited!

    2. KayEss*

      I had a boss who… wasn’t really all that similar to Michael in actual behavior, I guess, but was definitely cut from the same narcissist cloth. Watching it gives me a lead weight of anxiety in my stomach. I can’t laugh at it at all.

    3. clow*

      I did, I liked some things about the show, but ultimately it just wasnt for me because instead of finding the cringy stuff funny, it just annoyed me and I stopped watching.

    4. Squeeble*

      I hear you. I love the show because I watched it when it was on and have lots of warm nostalgic feelings toward it, but I wouldn’t be able to start the show cold today. It has not aged well. That said, it gets much better in season 2 and stays strong through about season 5, IMO.

    5. CCF*

      Yeah, it can be tough to watch some episodes from a realistic viewpoint. Dwight should have been fired at least 20 times. Jan or David should have replaced Michael a dozen times. It can be difficult when you see similar behavior in your own working environment, and it’s not being done to entertain millions of people.

    6. CheeryO*

      Yeah, you have to like cringe humor to get through some of the episodes. My boyfriend almost had a meltdown during “Scott’s Tots.” The tone does get a little softer after the early episodes.

      1. DDJ*

        I actually won’t watch Scott’s Tots. I’ve watched the entire series multiple times, but I’ve only watched Scott’s Tots once. And the second time I had to force myself through it (I kept telling myself I was remembering it as being a lot worse than it was, and I had to give it another chance). There’s a good moment (between Erin and Michael at the end) but other than that, it’s not watchable for me.

    7. oranges & lemons*

      I haven’t seen the US version, but the UK version is incredibly cringey (on purpose). I love cringe humour for some bizarre reason but most people I know hate it.

    8. Dzhymm*

      I suddenly have an image in my head of Alison giving this the Mystery Science Theater 3000 treatment…

  49. Mo*

    I could use some help on something I’m planning for work. I’m trying to find a passive ice breaker to do at an informal reception before an event. I want it to be passive because people can come at anytime so there isn’t going to be an official “everyone stand in a circle and we’ll do this activity”. My only thought so far is some kind of matching game where we give everyone a card with a question or an answer and they have to find their match. This way, they can roam around and talk to people, but don’t have to if they don’t want to. (The cards would be specific to a theme that we have.) Does anyone have any other suggestions for activities like this? Thanks!

    1. Yep.*

      How about a variation of the game where you have a list of questions to ask people (e.g “Find someone born in October”), where people can do it throughout the day and write there findings on a poster? Maybe they could be natural questions that are work related (E.g “Find someone from the Department of Cats”).

      1. Tara*

        I will just throw in that having had to go through these types if games, I hated them so much. They sound good in abstract, but have never led to me feeling connected to anyone. I’d rather go in a circle and have someone list off their favorite or recent book/TV show. This is just a personal preference, but I really don’t like those “matching” icebreakers and always felt like they were a waste of time.

      2. Tara*

        Ok, re-reading Mo’s idea, if it was more of a “here’s a thing you can do throughout the event” and then not enforcing it kind of activity, that would be much less stressful. The versions I’ve experienced are more “ok, for the next 10 minutes, find and write down the name of someone who matches these 10 things…” and then you don’t really have a choice about participating.

        1. Mo*

          Yes, exactly. We’re not going to have a specific time to do this, and we definitely don’t want to force anyone to do it. I just want to have some kind of activity for the people that need an icebreaker to talk to people.

      3. oranges & lemons*

        Personally, I have to say that I really hate all of those icebreaker activities that force you to go around and hunt down superficial facts about other people. They just feel really forced and somehow a bit patronizing. I’d rather have an icebreaker that’s not actually about getting to know people in such a literal way–it could be some kind of photo scavenger hunt of fun facts/pictures/etc hidden around the venue. I find that sort of thing is much easier for actually starting conversations.

    2. Starryemma*

      One I like i people bingo. You give people a blank board, where each square is something different (usually facts like “has 2 siblings” or “from Ohio”) or something– I’m sure there are sample boards online. Then, they go around and try to find people to fill their squares to get a bingo :). It can be fun, because word will get out about who’s from Ohio (or whatever), and eventually everyone will point people to that person.

      1. Mo*

        Thanks for your input. I’ve done human bingo before and it worked really well! I wanted to try something different this time, but maybe I won’t come up with anything else!

    3. CDM*

      Ditto

      The variant I did at DH’s recent work event included things like
      Find someone who has met a President
      Find someone who has been interviewed on TV
      Find someone who has run a marathon
      Find someone who is a twin or has twins
      Find someone born in the same city and state as you
      Find someone who has never had a speeding ticket
      Find someone born abroad
      find someone who is fluent in a different language
      Find someone who drives a Smart car (apparently nobody out of the 200+ in the room!)

      This gathering was employees and spouses, and it was pretty cool to do. Although it was scored as part of a competition, so I frankly don’t recall who actually gave me some of the answers I needed, lol. Without the competitive aspect, it’s a great way to learn a bit about people.

    4. paperfiend*

      I went to a conference once that had printed up lots of small (1 inch or 1.5 inch ) circular stickers with things related to the topic of the conference. Some were areas of expertise like Teapot Glazing, Project Management, Troubleshooting Teapot Systems, Customer Support; some were things like First Time Attendee or 5-Time Attendee or Presenter; others were less formal such as “Teapot Data Geek”, “I (heart) Unfired Clay”, etc.

      The idea was that everyone attached stickers to their nametags, and it was both an icebreaker when you were starting to network with folks, and a useful way to see what you might want to talk about with others.

      I liked it because I could participate by putting stickers on but didn’t HAVE to talk with others if I didn’t want to; and it was actually really useful when I was networking.

      1. Mo*

        I like that idea! This isn’t specifically a networking event, but maybe I can adjust what the stickers say for my purpose. Thanks!

  51. broadcastlady*

    A post last week got me to thinking about vacation and sick time. How much do you get?

    I work for a family-owned broadcasting company in a small market. We only get one paid week of vacation per year, and 6 sick days.

    What do you get?

    1. Anon Anon*

      New employees where I work get 20 days of PTO (to be used for both sick and vacation). Our office is also closed between Xmas and New Year’s.

      PTO allotments increase to 25 days at the 5 year mark and 30 days at the 10 year mark (it caps out at 30 days).

    2. Starryemma*

      I work for a public university, so we get a ridiculous amount of time. In my current position, 24 days per year, plus 10 days sick leave. In a previous position, 16 days per year (+3 additional days every 5 years of work), 10 days sick leave.

    3. High School Flashbacks*

      Small nonprofit with a national reach.
      – anyone under senior level gets 15 days vacation for the first two years. At year 3 you get 20 days. Senior levels start at 20 days. I’m not sure what the rollover cap is
      -10 sick days annually no cap on rollovers

    4. Penny*

      3 weeks paid vacation, no official sick leave policy since it’s a small org but taking a (paid) day here or there is fine.

    5. Just Peachy*

      I’ve been at my company for 2.5 years, and I get 7 vacation days, and 5 personal/sick days (which can really be used for anything) for 12 days total. It’s not great.

    7. JustaCPA*

      small private company here
      15 days vacation – use it or lose it (after 10 years, 20 days)
      7 sick days – roll over
      10 holidays

    8. Red Reader*

      I get 28 days of PTO per year, which includes vacation time, sick time, and 6 paid holidays.

      I work remotely, so I have the opportunity to work a partial or full day on the holiday if I want to and save the PTO for another day, I don’t have to worry about whether the actual office is open or not – I worked half days on Thanksgiving and Christmas because I was doing my personal celebrations on different days, to save myself the PTO. And again because of being remote, I pretty much never use sick time – like, one time in three years, I think, when I legit was so sick with a stomach bug that I couldn’t get off the bathroom floor – but general colds or uck, I figure I might as well deal, since I don’t have to leave the house or get dressed up or worry about giving anyone else germs.

    9. Serious Sam*

      Large UK Employer: We accrue leave at the rate of 2.92 days per calendar month (i.e. 35 days per year), but this has to include all public holidays. Sick leave is upto 3 days self-certified, unlimited with a doctor’s note (more usually a sequence of doctor’s notes) but pay goes to 1/2 after 6 months and zero after 12 months. All medical costs are covered by the NHS.

      Cannot say more without breaching Alison’s no-politics rule.

    10. Dankar*

      I’m hourly at a primarily-salaried institution, so my numbers are a bit different from others where I work:

      15 days vacation
      14 days sick (I think? I take very little sick time, so I can’t say I’ve looked recently)
      +15 paid holidays, including a 10 day winter break

    11. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Investment firm:

      15 days vacation, 10 days sick, 2 personal days, and market holidays off — plus a floating day so we’re not losing out to bank-side employees. Stupid NYSE being open on Veterans Day.

      1. KC*

        15 days PTO with the option to buy 1 more week by subtracting it from your salary
        2 floating holidays
        unlimited sick days
        We’re owned by a Canadian company so the US benefits are being brought more in line with those lucky Candians

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Man, I wish we had unlimited sick days. I’m not sick OFTEN but I hate having to count up when I’m barely able to stand.

    12. CheeryO*

      I’ve been at both ends of the spectrum so far in my career – I had 10 days of vacation and 3 sick days at my first job (small-ish company), and now I have 13 vacation days, 13 sick days, and 5 personal days, with a bonus vacation day for every year worked, up to 7 years (state government). There are sometimes some questionable “sick” days at the end of the fiscal year, since we can only carry over so many hours. Yes, it feeds into all of the stereotypes, but hey, it’s one of the perks.

    14. zora*

      mid-sized PR agency. New hires start at 15 days PTO/year. Combined vacation and sick. It increases at approximately 1 more day per year, you don’t get to 30 days until you have been here 16 years.

      I think it’s pretty stingy for a for profit, and I’m still mad at myself for not trying to get more days when I was negotiating. Of course the majority of the company is exempt, and I’m one of the tiny handful of non-exempt, so most people are happy with the flexibility they get, but I don’t get that. Meh.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      I was only getting a week a year (only after you’d worked there for a whole year) until OldExjob. Then it was two weeks to start, which you received after a year’s service. You got three weeks off at seven years. I was there for six. We got no sick time, either. So I had to tack PTO on holidays and weekends to make taking it worthwhile, and save up the rest in case I was ill or something. It was a constant juggling act and it sucked, especially when I was in a long-distance relationship where we took turns flying back and forth.

      Exjob gave fairly generous accrued PTO starting at thirty days (full benefits at that point, too). I would often end the fiscal year with some left over — many people did, and then there was a huge scramble to use it all since it didn’t roll over. June was a very quiet month in the office, but May was not!

      They also let you go forty hours in the hole, paid, but you accrued no more until that was earned out. That provision allowed me to take a slightly longer UK vacation in 2014 (almost three weeks). For the first time in my LIFE, I actually returned from a holiday feeling rested, refreshed, and raring to go. I’m so jealous of people in Europe who get a ton of leave per year. It really does make a difference.

    16. Agile Phalanges*

      I work for a tiny company. We only get 5 days of vacation/sick (combined) time. And initially, you were only supposed to get that AFTER working here a year, but the state passed a sick time law that meant that we had to go either accrual-based and they can begin using their balance after 90 days, or if we wanted to keep our once-a-year-lump-sum method (much easier in our payroll system), we had to front-load the time (though we can still make them wait until they’ve been employed 90 days to actually use it). My boss still gets pissy when someone uses their time in their first year. He thinks we have awesome benefits. He also thinks our starting pay of barely over the state minimum wage is generous, because he thinks in 1970s terms where it would be generous.

      So yeah. I came from a place where I had worked my way up to five weeks of PTO, to here where I had zero the first year, and one week the second year. At least I’m up to two weeks per year now.

    17. Natalie*

      We start at 19 days of PTO and 11 holidays, and then every 5 years you get another week. It seems fairly typical for this area based on my prior experience.

    18. Ramona Flowers*

      I work for a non-profit – in the UK so this won’t be remotely comparable.

      I get 25 vacation days to take when I want plus 13 days that are either paid holidays or we are closed.

      Sick pay is 8 weeks full and 8 weeks half I think but it gets longer with service.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Oh and we can roll over 5 days of leave and also buy or sell 5 (so you could get up to 48
        if you did both).

    19. BananaStand*

      I work for a major broadcasting company and I get only slightly more than you do. We get 10 vacation days, 11 sick days, five personal days and two floating holidays. After five years of service, you get 15 vacation days.

    20. Temporarily Anonymous*

      I work for mid-level government in Canada (unionized work) and after 8 years seniority I get 4 weeks (technically 20 days) paid vacation and 1 1/4 days of sick leave per month of full time work, which equals 15 days per year. They can pro-rate those if we are not working full time hours. The vacation benefit starts at 3 weeks before seniority increase. Permanent positions get these entitlements at the start of the fiscal year and term employees get their sick leave as it adds up. They also don’t get to bank the vacation time to use later (it is included in the total each pay period).

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        We also get quite a few statuatory paid holidays (12 including a floating holiday they pre-schedule at the other end of one of our summer long weekends.)

      2. Scubacat*

        Canadian working in a midsize nonprofit.
        New employees start with 21 paid days off a year. There are 14 sick days that we can take. Stat holidays are off days. Plus we have 2 paid office closure days around Christmas. We have 1 paid moving day to use per year if needed. At five years of employment, vacation time increases to five weeks.

    21. Arjay*

      After 10 years, I’m up to 28 days PTO (vacation and sick combined), 2 floating holidays, and 8 paid holidays. We can roll over up to 80 hours of PTO from year to year.

    22. Rear Mech*

      Zero sick days, zero vacation days. Small bike shop. In my (US) state, our business is not even required to participate in workman’s comp because we are so small.

    23. Overeducated*

      My leave is modeled on the US feds – up to 13 days sick leave and 13 vacation (4 hours per 80 worked). As a person who uses it, working for a boss who supports it, i’m beyond grateful for the generous sick leave by US standards…but I’m super jealous of people who get significantly more vacation.

      Also like the feds, I don’t get any paid parental leave whatsoever, so I’m sure I’ll have to save and use up all my combined PTO for childbearing if I stay in this system.

    24. Grandma Mazur*

      30 days annual leave + 8 bank holidays + 2.5 privilege days (extra holidays given to civil servants).

      Not unlimited sick leave at full pay but it’s definitely weeks per year rather than days.

      Plus flexitime.

      And I’m currently on maternity leave (6 months at full pay, 3 months statutory pay, 3 months unpaid). When I return I will also be entitled to claim unpaid dependants leave to use when tiny human is sick, school holidays, etc.

      + 5 days’ (paid) compassionate leave (family deaths, etc) in a rolling 12-month period.

      This is my biggest love about my job. The people are quite nice too! ;-)

    25. As Close As Breakfast*

      I work at a small, family owned, manufacturing company. Our hourly employees get 5 days of PTO (vacation and sick combined). I’m salaried and have 10 days after being here nearly 4 years. We get 5 paid holidays a year. It’s pretty bad.

    26. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      Full-time here starts at 2wks vacation, 7 days PTO (which can also be used as sick days).
      At five years, you get another week of vacation. At ten, another.

      We’ve only been around ten years now as a company, so I’m not positive if it goes any further, haha.
      I’ve been here 8 (9 in June).

    27. BatteryB*

      Exempt at a Fortune 50 company. We get 6 paid holidays plus we’re closed between Christmas and New Year’s. We used to have unlimited sick leave with the understanding that we should try to flex our time (if possible) to make up the time or work extra hours later. This year, it’s changed to having 40 hours of sick leave. If you’re out for more than 5 days straight, you have to contact HR to go on short term disability. Vacation is accrued during the year and it increases per years of service. It can only accumulate up to 400 hours then you stop accruing until you drop below that threshold. I don’t know how much I accrue per month. I’d have to look at my pay stub to find out. I’ve got about 300 hours accrued even after taking a total of 4 weeks off this past year. Starting this year, you can opt to sell back up to 40 hours of vacation. Basically, you stop accruing and get the equivalent dollar amount added to your pay.

      Also, when we’re closed for things like snow or tornados, we’re also expected to make up that time by working extra hours. We got hit by the massive tornado outbreak in 2011, and we were closed 3 days until the power came back on. I think I just took vacation that time instead of trying to make it up.

      Side note, we have to work 5 hours of unpaid overtime before we can get paid overtime (since I’m exempt, I have to get management approval for paid overtime). I had almost 400 hours of paid overtime in 2017. Starting in 2018, it takes VP approval to get paid overtime. It’s supposed to promote work-life balance, but I’ve already racked up 12 hours of unpaid overtime in 2 weeks. My team gets more tasks but not more staff.

    28. Book Lover*

      As a doctor in a large practice, the usual holidays, 5 weeks vacation, sick time isn’t limited, and separate time for medical education also.

    29. zyx*

      I’m a high school teacher, so I get the usual school holidays but work over the summer. I learned today that we all have unlimited sick days, though it’s so much trouble to create a good sub plan and get the class back on track upon our return that we’d much rather be at school. If we’re out sick for 5 consecutive days, there’s some formal process that happens. It’s something to do with taking leave instead of sick days; I don’t know the details.

    30. Al Lo*

      Non-profit in Canada with a quite small administrative staff.

      -10 vacation days to start, increasing to 15 at 5 years (government-mandated minimum)
      -12 paid holidays
      -No cap for short sick leaves; long-term is managed on a more individual basis.
      -Lieu time for overtime (per provincial regulations), which means I rarely ever worry about taking partial days or random days off, since I almost always have a bit of time under my belt.
      -No policing of time off except for the office manager tracking my actual vacation time. I track my own lieu time and hours, and it’s only really called to the carpet if I’m not doing my job. As long as I’m managing my workload and achieving everything I need to, I’m given total flexibility over my hours. When I leave this job, we’ll look at my overall outstanding lieu and vacation, and it’s paid out as necessary.

    31. Scarlettnz*

      I get 25 days of annual leave per year (I can roll over 10 days to the following year), 10 days per year of sick leave (can accrue up to 225 days of sick leave), plus another 11 public holidays per year. After 10 years service I got two weeks of long service leave, with another week each at 15 and 20 years service. I’m in New Zealand.

    32. valc2323*

      US federal government, non-postal-service, non-military, and non-bargaining-unit: 10 paid holidays and 13 sick days per year for all full-time employees. Annual leave is 13 days per year to start, increases to 20.5 after 3 years and 26 after 15 years. Leave is earned on a per-pay-period basis, not awarded in a lump (four hours sick leave and 4, 6, or 8 hours annual leave per 80-hour pay period). We can roll over up to 6 weeks annual leave at the end of the year, and sick time accrues indefinitely. If you leave federal service your accrued annual leave is paid out but sick time is not paid out, it is banked until you return (or until you reach retirement, then it is paid out).

    33. Wandering Anon*

      Small private college in US. 5 weeks CTO to start (sick & vacation time all in one bucket), 6 weeks after 2 years, 7 weeks after 10, 8 weeks after 20. We don’t get many normal holidays but we do have a 4 day weekend for Thanksgiving and the week between Christmas and New Year’s – a total of about 8 additional days off.

      We can also bank CTO as sick leave. This can be used in a variety of situations but is often used to supplement or put off using short-term disability.

  52. Junior Dev*

    Had my first week of the new job! I’m feeling pretty overwhelmed with all the information but I think it’ll get better.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Sounds about right for the first week on a new job. It took me six months at my job to feel like I had a handle on things.

  53. Conference Planner*

    I had my second interview for a job as a conference planner this week, and the company has reached out to my references already! They’ve talked to two of my references (who both emailed me to assure me that they’d given glowing reports of my competence and abilities) and they’re talking to the third later today. I’m pretty hopeful that a job offer will come along soon.

    I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself, but if in their initial job posting they said that salary is commensurate with experience, I have five years experience, and the bottom of their range is $58,000 per annum, how much should I ask for if I’m offered the job? I don’t want to price myself out, but I do want to “lean in” and all, and make sure I advocate for myself!

    Thank you so much commenters!! I’m sure the reason I got so far in this process if because I used Allison’s resume and cover letter tips and because I scoured that thread on interview questions earlier this week! They loved my asking, “what, in your opinion, makes the difference between a good conference planner, and a truly great one?”

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      [sorry if this is a double-post; got an error the first time]

      Can you give us some more details — like your geographic location, the seniority of the role, etc.? That might help us give you a better idea of market value. (I’m sure you’ve already done this, but if you haven’t, check Glassdoor and elsewhere on the internet to do your own research on market rates for this role!)

      1. Conference Planner*

        I’m in Washington, DC, the role is a new one and sort of nebulously worked out in the hierarchy but is a direct report to the Assistant Director. There’s a possibility of overseeing casual employees at the conferences themselves.

        According to Glassdoor the ranges for similar roles are:
        Meeting and Convention Planner: $39k-68k, average of $53k
        Conference Planner: $47k-$72k, average of $47k

        They’re offering a bewilderingly high “bottom of the range” so I don’t know what’s realistic to ask for… which is part of the reason I so want the job, haha!

        And thank you for your help!

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Is this for a nonprofit or a university? (The “assistant director” title makes me think yes to one of these.)

          I’d be curious about others’ thoughts as well, but based on my own DC experience in nonprofit meeting/convention planning (which was admittedly 5+ years ago), $58k is a great offer, but I don’t see the harm in asking for another 2-3k on top of that, if you think you deserve it, and especially because they said that was the bottom of their range. It’s also okay to be happy with their offer and just accept!

          1. Conference Planner*

            Oh yes, sorry for leaving that bit out– it’s for a university! If they offer at $58k, do you think it would be reasonable for me to say, “Is there room for negotiation? I was thinking of something closer to $68k.” And therefore end up with something like $61k or thereabouts?

            I’d be fine with the offer as is, I think, but I don’t want to accidentally give up a chance of earning more since DC’s such an expensive city to live in!

            (and thank you very much again!)

            1. KayEss*

              In this case, I don’t know that I’d ask for more than $5k on top of the offer, assuming they offer at $58k. I would also definitely point out in your negotiations any benefits your five years of experience will bring.

              (Citation: I was offered $55k for a university job, countered with $60k because of my five years of university-specific experience, they accepted $60k without further negotiation. The school turned out to be a declining trashfire, but that’s another story.)

            2. Not a Real Giraffe*

              Hah okay you are right in my wheelhouse then (I’m an event planner for a university, though no longer based in DC). University hiring ranges, in my experience, tend to be very small. For example, my current job range was $X–X+$4,000. When I was interviewing, my hiring manager and I had a very candid conversation about salary. I was currently making more than their budgeted range and my offer came in at $X+$5,000 which was unusual and surprising, and they made sure I knew they really went to bat to get an exception to offer me that salary.

              I would assume their range is something like $58-63,000. If you can make an argument for asking for $68,000 and that being your actual market value, go for it, but I think you might be better off at a $65k ask.

              1. Not a Real Giraffe*

                Also, depending on which institution this is, there might be a sense of “it’s a privilege to work here and you should be grateful for whatever we offer.”

                1. Conference Planner*

                  oh yes, I didn’t think of that! Yeah, as I mentioned below, I did not put two and two together and realize that negotiating salary in the halls of academe would be very different from say, negotiating a salary as an event planner at a Marriott Hotel. Less money to work with, more codified pay grades, etc.

                  thank you so SO much, this has helped a lot!!!

            3. Anony*

              You aren’t necessarily going to end up with a number approximately halfway in between. I wouldn’t ask for a 20% bump in the offer without a good reason to back it up (average salary for the field, prior salary history, having higher than average qualifications, etc.). Basically you should be able to make the case that you are worth $68k to them. Ask for a number you can justify. Maybe it is $68k but it sounds like the number may be more like $61k. You don’t want to come across as naive or make them think you would be unhappy with he original offer if in fact you would be happy.

              1. Anony*

                Also take into account regional variation when determining average salary for the position. DC is expensive which may explain why it is a higher number.

              2. Not a Real Giraffe*

                I agree with this. If $61k is the number you would be happy with, give it. Lots of employers are excited about being able to meet you at the salary you’ve asked for – they want you to be happy, too.

              3. Conference Planner*

                Thank you! I think I was reading advice meant for people who are negotiating in the business world, which was always to aim higher than what you think your skills are worth, as the company will then argue you down. I very much appreciate this!

        2. PR for Now*

          I’m in DC, as well, and I’m sure you’re very aware this city is a high COL area. I think $58k is perfectly reasonable for five years of conf. planning experience, if not a little low. The ambiguity of the role might also work in your favor. Why not ask for $60k-$65k? Knowing the baseline, that seems realistic to me. Also, do be sure to review your benefits closely as you can negotiate those, too.

          Good luck!

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            Typically in a university setting, you will have very little room to negotiate benefits (especially things like vacation time), as they are dictated by your salary grade, which is also set by a university-wide policy.

          2. DCConferences*

            I’m late here to this one, but found this response to be pretty on track for what I’m seeing for Conference Planners for Non-Profits/Trade Associations in DC. But you have to find out if this a non-exempt role or an exempt role? I’m asking because you’ll find yourself working a lot of overtime hours and if it’s $58k plus overtime then that’s pretty decent for entry level. But, if overtime is not included, I would ask for $65k for someone with at least 5 years of work as a conference planner. Good Luck, OP!

        1. Conference Planner*

          $58k is the bottom on their range… they didn’t post what the top was. The $53k average is from Glassdoor.

    3. K, Esq.*

      Public universities publish their salaries. You might have some luck looking around at what other institutions pay their conference planners.

  54. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    I’m facing a weird situation at work and I’d like your opinion.

    My company CEO is a nice, down to earth person, but lately he has been acting out of character.
    Two months ago, he started aggressively checking our accounts and sending invites. Like, every two weeks or weekly. Some of us, like me, accepted his invitation and started receiving endorsements for some of the skills listed. I was surprised by this so I set up an experiment – I listed a search engine we’re using in the project I’m currently working at, and two days later I was notified he looked at my profile. So, it’s safe to say he’s closely monitoring our activity. I didn’t give much thought, but this week one of my coworkers admitted he’s considering quitting without notice because he feels intimidated and under surveillance every time he receives an email notification.
    Am I underestimating my CEO and this is a red flag I should pay attention to? Is my coworker overreacting? Should I start job searching just in case?

    1. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      (BTW, we’re talking about Linkedin, if that’s not clear from the text)

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      IIRC, you can change your settings so it doesn’t notify people of a change. YMMV if that solves the issue or not. Or you can just block him? That could be awkward though.

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      That seems really odd. You could block him I suppose. But I wonder if he’s “new” to linkedin and that’s why there’s so much activity from him and it’ll taper off once the cool factor wears off. He may not realize that you’re seeing this stuff either. You can adjust the notifications you get so you don’t see so much of it too.

      What’s happening in the office? Normal stuff? If so, I’d just adjust your notifications for now and wait to see if anything changes.

    5. CAA*

      It’s a little weird of your CEO to constantly check LinkedIn, but your coworker wanting to quit because the CEO is looking at his LinkedIn profile is actually more weird. LinkedIn is a social media site. They make money by driving more traffic to their site, and they do that by emailing relentlessly and trying to get people to click through. Your CEO has just fallen into the trap and he’s clicking on links that end up making it look like he viewed your profiles.

      Also, when you added the search engine to your skills, the next time your CEO logged into LinkedIn, he got a message that said “Does Fake old Converse shoes know xxxx?” so he clicked on the button that said you do, and then you got an email saying he endorsed you.

      You can (and should) turn off the option to display skill endorsements on your profile. That will stop the emails, and I am pretty sure that it will also stop LinkedIn from asking everyone you know whether you have those skills. You can also turn off the option to send notifications about profile changes to your network. If you’re frequently making changes, it’s a good idea to turn that off.

    6. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      I triple checked today and I have the notifications for my contacts turned off. In fact, I turned if off a long time ago to avoid annoying the hell of my contacts when I was unemployed and updating my profile.
      My coworker has been job searching for months, and if he leaves without notice not only he will burn bridges with us, but also harm the project since it’s really hard to find a replacement at this time of the year.

  55. Library-ish*

    I know from all my comment lurking that there are a lot of librarians that post on AAM so I’m hoping y’all can give me some industry specific advice:

    I went to library school to work in archives but have had the hardest time getting hired. I’ve been working for about 7 years and seem to have gotten stuck on the circulation track. Maybe it’s the places that I’m applying, but getting a job in special collections without paid experience in special collections has seemed impossible.

    I recently took a job in tech services as I did have some cataloging experience, thinking I’d appreciate not dealing with patrons all day. However, now I am bored. I don’t want to talk to patrons all day but looking at a screen all day isn’t doing it for me. I really like the culture of the place, but the work itself bores me to tears.

    I just got an offer for an entry level position in special collections at a different institution. How terrible would it be to jump ship after only a couple months at Cataloging Job?

    1. bohtie*

      I feel this! I’m lucky enough to work in a repository where I do a little of everything, but prior to that, I was a processing archivist and it was a nightmare. I spent two years being bored to tears and it really started to affect everything from my work quality to my mental health.

      Honestly, cataloging is such a niche field (with in my experience a niche personality — you either love it or hate it) that I don’t think anyone would blame you. I would say totally go for it now that you have a shot at a track that you’re actually interested in!

      1. Library-ish*

        Yeah, I had done it before but never full-time. I think the lack of variety (I need to talk to people sometimes, and move around, and do some reference, etc) is what’s making it so hard to adjust to.

        Thank you for the encouragement! It’s really nice to hear that it’s okay to move on so soon.

    2. JeanB in NC*

      Take the special collections job! That’s the field you want to be in, and as long as you give the appropriate notice at the cataloging job, you shouldn’t be burning the bridge behind you. I have been looking for cataloging jobs off and on for about 9 years now and if I had just taken another accounting job, then was offered a cataloging job, I would jump at it.

      1. Library-ish*

        Thanks for helping me normalize this! I’ve been worried about it making me look bad. It looks like there’s going to be a cataloging job opening up here if you’re still looking

    3. Spider*

      You are me from 10 years ago, so as your future self, let me tell you: take the Special Collections job and don’t look back!

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would take the SC job. As an SC librarian, I can’t imagine a field I would love more. However, you need to know that you are burning a bridge at that institution. Leaving after a few months will anger people and it is rude. So, just be aware that you are alienating folks by doing this.

      But I would still do it. Entry level SC jobs are rare. I had to move over 3000 miles from my family to find mine.

  56. JustaTech*

    My cover letter reviewer (spouse) has told me my cover letters are really stilted and none of my excitement or enthusiasm comes through (I write technical reports and Internet comments; there’s not a lot of opportunity to practice writing “enthused”).
    So my question is: can I say “Your research is really cool” in a cover letter? Is “exciting” a better substitute? Or is that all too casual?
    I have had one cover letter that was very well received (got an interview). Maybe the writing just flowed that day?

    1. Library-ish*

      I’d go with “exciting” or “interesting” and maybe list an example of a report/article/project they put out that really piqued your interest.

    2. Penny*

      AMA has so much great cover letter advice. Look through the archives here. There are some posts that have real examples of good cover letters that I found hugely helpful when I was job hunting.

    3. Tara*

      I often have a hard time straddling the line between “showing enthusiasm” and “not being overly informal” in cover letters. I would probably never use the word “love” in any professional email/communication, but sometimes find it’s the best way to convey “authenticity” in a cover letter. As in, “I love reading about the research at Company X,” vs “I’m very interested in the research conducted by Company X.” The second is more natural professional writing to me, and true! But it doesn’t have the same effusive tone in writing as the first. I’m interested in hearing others’ advice, but in my experience, it’s key to use a few more “feel-y” words than you would normally use in work communication.

      1. Work Wardrobe*

        Pretend you meet this person at a party or work event and find out where they work, and you tell them how cool or engaging or fascinating the work they do is. That’s the language to use. Make it more conversational so they get a glimpse at your personality and enthusiasm.

    4. J.B.*

      What worked for me recently: I started out reciting all the stuff I had done over a long time at current job. The intro paragraph came out ok, but the rest of it was just snoozeworthy. However, having written that I stuck the paragraphs in another file and did much more focused storytelling. Not exciting, but much better. Maybe also talking about a project you were involved with and liked, and what excited you about it.

    5. TL -*

      Are you applying to labs? I usually used something like, “I am fascinated by your lab’s work on the tumor micro environment. I have always been interested in cancer research, especially the ways cancer cells communicate with their surroundings. Your work looking at the cross-talk between cancer cells, normal cells, and infiltrating immune cells is particularly intriguing.” and then go on to talk about either particular project I’m applying for or building a case for myself with my previous skills and interest. “In my previous lab, I was working on a project looking at immune cells in pancreatic cancer. I noticed an unusual signalling protein being expressed and began exploring it, eventually ending up discovering an interaction that had not been described before.”

      I would probably try to make it sound a little less stilted, but I think with labs, specificity is the best way to show your interest – be specific about what you’re interested in and also provide examples of you demonstrating (and successfully doing a project) around that interest before.

  57. LAI*

    How do you handle your daily schedule when you’re exempt? How many hours per day or per week do you actually work?

    I’ve been exempt for a while, but always in roles with defined hours when our office was open to the public, and specific tasks that needed to be accomplished every day. There was always more work than there were hours, and so I generally worked at least 40 hours a week if not more, but had flexibility to come in late or leave early when I needed to. Now, I’m in a role where I’m just working toward one large goal that will never be fully accomplished (think, increase teapot sales as much as possible). I have a lot of projects that are aimed at that goal but sometimes I’m waiting for people to respond, or it’s a slow period and there’s not much I can do. I can try to think of new projects but there’s a limit to that too. Am I really supposed to try to keep coming up with work to fill 8 hours every day? I can try talking to my boss but he’s very busy and very hands-off – he’s seemed somewhat impatient with other people asking for too much hand-holding at times so I don’t want to do that (and I also don’t want to give the impression that I’m not doing anything now!). Things were so slow over the holidays (there was one day when I was the only person on my floor) that I really couldn’t even think of anything work-related to do, and ended up just surfing the internet for a while. Is this normal? On days like that, why am I even in the office? (I do work from home one day a week already)

    1. NoodleMara*

      I know for me, there’s an expectation of a certain amount of hours but due to the busy season we have each summer, working less hours during the off season is fine. I know a lot of people at work in the off season do a lot of sitting around and chatting for hours! No one cares as long as the work gets done and it isn’t super excessive like working only 1-2 hours a day. Lots of people also surf the internet. I would recommend looking to learning stuff! I do some of that myself or reading research articles related to work stuff, even if it’s for fun (like reading about types of teapot glazes, our business is making teapot materials). You could maybe ask about working from home more days.

    2. Arjay*

      Even though I’m exempt, the culture here is big on butts-in-seats and visibility. I worked slightly offset hours, so by coming in later, I try to make sure I’m here later than expected most days. I also log in most weekends to at least check in, respond to an email or two, and generally appear available. During slow times, I can work on continuing education and work-adjacent things most of the time.

  58. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Going to keep this deliberately vague, but I interviewed with someone who said he wanted to “run a few things by me” that I’d be in charge of if I were hired in the position. I wish I was clearer on whether we’re still in the feeling-out stage, or if he’s getting a head start on getting me involved in decisions while he works on getting an offer prepared. We had a great talk, salary was discussed, I have contacts at the organization advocating for me, and it sounded a lot like it would move forward, but he didn’t say that explicitly and I didn’t ask. If he doesn’t volunteer more information when he sends me the things to review, I’m going to ask about the timeline and what I can expect, but the uncertainty is sort of killing me. It doesn’t help that I finally admitted to myself that there is no going back from the level of over-it I’ve reached at my current job. Ahh well.

  59. Sarah*

    Recently I was offered a retail job as a supervisor in a clothing store. I currently work part-time in a retail job that I despise. I do way more than what is expected of me and I do not get appreciated for my actions. On top of it all, the benefits and pay are not great at all. This new job would have better pay, stable hours, and would require less of a workload. The thing is the manager who offered me the new job is an ex-manager of mine and also someone I am extremely close with. It would be amazing to work with my best friend, but I obviously have some concerns. Firstly, the employees at the new store already know that the manager and I are close. I worry about what that will do to my future relationships with my new co-workers. I do not want them to see me as someone they cannot trust because I will immediately run to the boss to tell him what they said. Secondly, the new manager and I are “friends”, but we have had a history of crossing the friendship line at times. I don’t want our intimacy ruining anything here. However, I know we can control ourselves in a work setting. Should I take the job? I would love to work at this new store with my friend being the manager but I’m worried it won’t be a good idea.

    1. lurkylurk*

      Generally speaking, I would not want my friend (especially a friend with line-crossing) to be my manager, because that way lies a whole host of problems. It’s not just about whether or not you can control your attraction- it’s also about the way the introduction of power warps pre-existing dynamics between people. I’ve seen people who’ve been friends/in a relationship for years fall apart because one of them was or became the other one’s manager, and I wouldn’t suggest trying it yourself unless the perks of the job are /very/ compelling.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I second this–I severely damaged a friendship of long standing when I was working for the other person and had some issues with depression that cost me the job. I wouldn’t expect or ask her to recommend me for a job, nor do I think she’d ever want to work with me again. We’re still friends, but mostly on Facebook now even though we’re still in the same city, which is sad because we previously spent a lot of time together.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      I spent a bit under 15 years in retail and I wish I could say that this scenario is uncommon….it’s not. The biggest issue I see with the situation is whether or not there’s a possibility of the two of you ever being intimate/romantically involved again. If not, then I’d tell you to go ahead, but be sure that the info about your romantic past/fling doesn’t come to light. In my years in retail, I knew many managers that were very close friends with their assistant managers, some of which were friends previous to the hire and some after. Whether or not it causes problems is up to the two of you and how professional you can be in the workplace. The person I consider my best friend was my manager for almost 5 years, but we are both female.

      I do believe that your friend needs to disclose your prior friendship and working relationship to his boss, but it’s retail…..I highly doubt his boss will care.

  60. Anlyn*

    I’m looking for a time/task management app. Brief history: I am on medication for depression and have been working with my doctor to diagnose/treat possible ADHD. I am having a LOT of difficulty caring about my work. I know that a big reason is because I’m bored, but in the meantime, I’m letting too many things slip through.

    In my personal life, I’ve had a lot of luck setting an egg timer and doing whatever it is I need/want to do within that time frame, then take a brief break when it goes off, then setting it again. I’m looking for something similar in a mobile app. Something I can set a timer, maybe even be able to customize a little (though that’s not a requirement), and do 10 minutes of task 1, take a break*, do 15 minutes of task 2, take a break, do 10 minutes more of task 1, etc.

    I tried the eggtimer, and it didn’t work; mostly the ticking kept distracting me.

    If anyone knows of a good app that can do something like this, I would greatly appreciate it. I’m willing to spend a little money if it’s a good one.

    *only a few minutes or so

    1. Murphy*

      I can just set a timer on my phone’s clock app, or set a reminder for X minutes through Google. (I have a Samsung Android phone.)

    7. Natalie*

      I really like Tide, which is a pomodoro timer. It has a nice, easy to use interface plus optional nature sounds if you like those. I believe it’s free.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      I use Forest which is an app that locks out your phone or internet (or specific pages of the internet) for a set period of time. I love it. It’s like 2 dollars I think.

  61. Not a Guy*

    How do you all feel about using the blanket term “guys” when addressing a group of mixed gender identity? I’m a woman working in a historically male-dominated field and I regularly get emails to my team saying “Hey Guys”, or someone will come into my office and say “Guys, have you heard from John Smith today?” It feels odd, I guess because it’s a gender-specific term, but I’ve never objected to it in the past because it was so common-place.

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t have a problem with it, but I know that some people do. I probably wouldn’t use it in a professional context, at least not in writing. For me, that’s mostly because it feels too casual.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m Southern, so I just use something like “hey y’all” but…that might not work in your case.

      1. Emalia*

        Former southerner, now in New England — I’ve adapted “hey y’all” to “hi all”.

        More frequently in work emails I’ll just address the email to Team.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I’ve always used it for mixed gender groups. I suppose you could say ‘gang’ or ‘team’ but they don’t sound as comfortable as guys.

    4. JanetM*

      It doesn’t bother me, but I tend to use “folks” or skip the salutation and start with, “Good morning,” or “Good afternoon.”

    5. KayEss*

      I don’t like it, myself, mostly because the opposite–referring to an all-female group as “ladies”–sets my teeth on edge and I don’t want to be a hypocrite about it. I haven’t come up with a good way to bring it up with offenders, though. (I actually wrote in to Allison about this a couple weeks ago in a moment of frustration… pretty sure the answer would be, “yeah… sadly that’s something you’re just gonna have to deal with.”)

      I had a fantastic manager once who made a point to always use gender-neutral terms like “team” or “everyone”, even with an all-female group. I didn’t even notice until a man was hired and referred to us (his colleagues!) as “you ladies” and it was like nails on a chalkboard. I try to emulate her and model the behavior I want to see from others, so all my group emails start with “Hi all” or “Hi everyone” and I try to do the same when addressing groups verbally.

    8. Tara*

      I would use it verbally, but not in writing. But I can also see an argument for it not being inclusive enough to ever use. “Folks”, “Y’all”, and “All” as suggested in other comments would work.

    9. K.*

      I say “all” professionally if I’m addressing more than two people via email. “All, please have the whatever to me by end of day Friday.” (If I’m addressing two people I just use their names.) In person I think I say “everybody,” but I’ve probably said “guys” too. I’ve spent my entire life in major northeastern cities, so “you guys” is very, very common.

      However, when on all-female teams, I have pushed back against the use of the term “girls,” even from women within the team, because I find it infantilizing (I would feel the same way about “boys,” but no one ever says that).

    11. LCL*

      I deliberately chose to start using you all or y’all because I got tired of reading endless discussion about whether guys is a general use term or negating women’s presence in the workplace or offensive or making assumptions or not. Some discussions I just don’t want to give the head space to, I have other endless arguments to consider. I will accept the criticism that, as someone born and raised in the PNW, I’m probably not saying y’all or you all correctly. And I DON’T CARE.

    12. Emi.*

      I use “guys” all the time for mixed or women-only groups (see “Omigod, You Guys” from Legally Blonde). I don’t think I’ve ever used it at work but I’ve never had occasion to.

    13. NoodleMara*

      I think in general it’s probably fine. In my area of the Mid-Atlantic it is a mixed gender term. My issue is when I joined the all-male team, the supervisor continued to address emails as “Gentlemen,”

      Drove me nuts, and it took him a year and a half to change it to “Ladies and Gentlemen”

    14. BRR*

      I’m not a huge fan but it’s not the hill I’m going to die on. I also don’t like when one of my coworkers addresses a group of all women as women, girls, or ladies. I stick with everyone most of the time.

    15. Reba*

      Thinking about this, I realized in my own usage that as an address, “guys” is not gendered, that is, I could use it to address a group of all women, as well as mixed or whatever. It works as a kind of interjection, just meaning a greeting or hey, give me your attention. When used as a plain old noun, like “those guys over there,” I mean men. Huh! “Dude(s)” works the same way for me.

      I think I’m willing to let go of Guys but never DUDE!

      1. zyx*

        I went to an all-girls high school, and we said “guys” when addressing all-female groups all the time. I still have that habit.

        It didn’t occur to me that anyone thought it was strange until my mother, a native Spanish speaker, told me how much it bothered her that I used the wrong gender for groups of my friends.

    16. Observer*

      Are you from somewhere other than where you team is from? The reason I ask is because “guys” is not necessarily gender specific everywhere. So, if your correspondents are from areas / circles where guys is used without reference to gender, that could be what’s going on here.

    17. Natalie*

      It doesn’t personally bother me and to be totally honest I think being bothered by it is a touch oversensitive. But, if I knew or suspected it really irritated one of my colleagues I’d stop using it anyway.

    18. Julianne*

      It doesn’t bother me when other people use it, but I try to avoid it myself. I usually start emails “Hi team,” or “Hi everyone” if there are more than 3 recipients, and when speaking I use “folks” a lot.

    19. Garland Not Andrews*

      Personally, I don’t even think about it being gendered, but if I was the one addressing a group of people, I’d likely use the term folks.

    20. HannahS*

      When I’ve seen this topic come up in the past, my take-away has been that it depends on age (as in, generation) + location. As a millenial in Ontario, I’ve used “guys” to refer to an all-female group,both of friends and as an adult speaking to a group of young girls. But since realizing that some people don’t care for it and that many, many people do just use it for male and mixed groups (which hints that it’s not really gender-neutral to them), I’ve switched to “Hi everyone” “Morning, everybody” in contexts where I don’t know the people well. And honestly, while I’d use “those guys” to refer to a group of all-female friends, “that guy” is definitely only male to me. So I think it’s a bit fuzzy, usage-wise, and I prefer to err on the safe side.

    22. Jennifer Thneed*

      I use it in speech, in at-home type situations, among those who love me and know my gender politics. In the larger world I tend to use specifically non-gendered terms, and I’ve been doing this long enough that there’s never that awkward pause for me. “Fire-fighter” and “mail carrier” are just the terms I use.

      In personal email? Again, depends on the audience, and if I use it I’m actually likely to say or write “Youse guys” because I am a silly person and also I like the repeated consonent sound.

      In work email? Oh, hell no. Too casual by far for my tastes, in that setting. Like someone else does, I use the actual names, or something like “Team” or “All”. (For those who want to parse me, I’m a native of West Coast Large City, I live in Different West Coast Large City, I’m in my 50’s, and I’ve been aware of feminism since Ms Magazine was first published, when I was about 10.)

  62. Lil Gumshoe*

    Anyone have any tips for an “informal discussion” in lieu of an interview?

    Background: I’m in consideration for an internal transfer to a different department in a new role. I had an initial interview with the department manager and the departments director wants to meet for an informal discussion (exact words). This is my first time doing a non-interview interview. Any tips?

    1. Tara*

      Still treat it like an interview. It might not be as long or as structured, but still go into it as if it was an interview. They may want you to be more willing to give unpolished/informal answers to questions, but the point of the meeting is probably the same as an interview, so I would mostly treat it the same.

      1. DDJ*

        Agreed. There’s a good chance that the director is still going to treat your answers as if they were given in an interview, so if it were me, I’d still err on the formal side. I was recently on the hiring manager side of this situation, and while the conversation was structured much less formally, I was still looking for the same kind of information I’d get from a formal interview.

  63. SometimesALurker*

    I’m just venting/self-congratulating here because I don’t want to say this particular thing on social media today. Part of my job is to give museum tours, and today a visitor said to me, “That was a great tour. I can tell you really love your job, because you’re so passionate when you present!” It was a compliment and I thanked her, but I don’t love the tour part of my job at all — I have been burnt out on that particular part for years. The only reason I still do it is that it’s part and parcel of my current position and the good parts of this job outweigh the annoying parts. So, saying it here because I certainly couldn’t say it to her — friend, the fact that I convey passion doesn’t mean I love giving tours, it means I’m damn good at it.

    2. Overeducated*

      Haha, I got halfway and thought, “that means that you’re really good at your job.” And then I read to the end! Nice work.

  64. Boo*

    We’re in the middle of redundancies and it looks like I’ll be on the interview panels for internal staff applying for remaining posts, and I am DREADING IT. Anyone got any tips/advice?

  65. Tris Prior*

    Let’s talk about companies who get pissed off at employees who take sick time because they have severe flu, and require a doctor’s note as proof that you’re not faking! (Not my company; my partner’s.) He dragged himself in after missing 2 days even though he felt terrible still. His fever spiked after an hour, so he went back home. His boss also doesn’t feel the need to farm out any of his work in his absence and he’s really stressed out about that as WFH is not possible in his job.

    I wish his company would treat him like a grownup who can make the call as to whether he is too sick to show up for work. I told him I hoped he licked his boss’s desk on his way out because it would serve him right.

    1. lurkylurk*

      Oh, let’s! There was a round of bronchitis in my office before Christmas, because nobody felt they could take time off, so everyone dragged their terribly sick selves in and infected everyone else, so we were all taken out and the office lost more time than it would have done by letting patient zero stay home.

    3. MissingArizona*

      I had a boss insist I was faking strep throat, so I went and got my doctors note, walked into work in my pj’s, coughed on the note and dropped it on his keyboard. He never questioned me again.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        That’s someone who has never experienced it.

        I remember the first time. I slept for something like 30 hours, woke up, realized that fact, and took myself to the urgent care for meds.

        The second time, I was mostly furious that the first time hadn’t given me immunity, dammit! I was so sick. There weren’t really urgent cares around where I lived then, and I knew better than to take myself to the ER. (I got better, don’t remember details.)

        Anyway, I laughed out loud at your post, for reals, not like “LOL”.

  66. Muriel Heslop*

    My husband is job hunting for the first time in his life (he’s a lawyer and he’s always been recruited). When he is applying online for jobs, if it asks for him to attach a resume, should he also attach a cover letter if it doesn’t ask for one?

    This is all new to us, but I’ve read so much here about cover letters that I thought you all would know. Thanks!

    1. lurkylurk*

      Generally speaking, as someone who works in recruitment, I feel like you can’t really go wrong with a cover letter? Worst case scenario, the person looking at his application skips over it and goes straight to the CV. Best case, he writes a good letter that makes him stand out from the crowd and gets their attention. Either way, it’s a decent idea.

    2. Murphy*

      When I was job searching, I found that many applications, even if they didn’t explicitly ask for a cover letter, had a spot for uploading additional files. In that case, I would always add one. But if it only asked for a resume and there was only one spot for uploading, then I didn’t. (I know I could just make them one file and upload both in the resume spot, but I don’t think I ever did that.)

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        That is what I suggested to him – that he add a cover letter to his resume. But I didn’t know if it’s “done”. We are like two dinosaurs navigating his job hunt. Thanks!

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          I’ve done it plenty of times. If the online portal refuses to allow a 2nd document, I just create a doc that starts with my CL and refers to “the resume (below)”. Then a line break and my resume, and good to go.

          Remember: the resume shows your experience. The cover letter is where you talk about how your experience relates to THIS job.

          Good luck to your husband!

    3. Triangle Pose*

      Yes. And I say that as someone who was hired by applying with just a resume. I just got lucky. I was drafting my cover letter and planned on uploading it (system allows later uploads of documents to augment application) when called for phone interview.
      -a lawyer

    4. Work Wardrobe*

      Always! If nothing else, it can push him to the top of the pile over those who don’t bother.

      He can create a PDF that combines the CL and R into a single file, so they are always seen as one.

  67. Gabi*

    I’m currently in the process of leaving my job, and I was invited to do an exit interview by HR. I did so, saying I felt I felt like I’d been forced out (my KPIs had been really high, and the ‘PIP or leave’ meeting felt like it came completely out of the blue).

    I just got a surprise call from my Area Manager (the person I felt had been the driving force behind the firing) to discuss what I said in that interview. Is this normal?

    For reference, I’m still working at the company. Most people in this job get escorted off-site as soon as they hand their notice in, but as per the terms of my contract, I’m due to work in-office for another two weeks. I’m going to be seeing my AM quite a bit in the meantime, and he’s known for holding grudges. Should he have been made aware of what I said about him in order to try and fix it before I leave, or should he only have been told after I left?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Hell no. At least you know that your comments were taken seriously and the Area Manager was investigated in some way which is why they want to know exactly what you said. I would not return the call or have any contact with the Manager. What you said in your exit interview was honest, so let the Manager stew in the soup they made.

      1. Gabi*

        Yeah, I’m going to try to keep it to a minimum (which is difficult, because he usually spends a day or so a week in our office, sitting at the desk next to mine, so that’s going to be awkward as all hell).

        What I’m worried about is that he seemed to know EXACTLY what I’d said- it sounded like he was reading chunks of it off word for word during the call. The interview itself was done online via a messaging service, so there would have been a full transcript available.

        I’ve tried getting in touch with HR about this, since I’d assumed the feedback was anonymous, and all they’ve said is that ‘we think it’s important to reflect on all feedback we receive in order to facilitate continuous improvement’, which sounds like a big pile of horse manure to me, but then I’m not a HR expert.

        1. CAA*

          Exit interviews are absolutely not anonymous at most companies. If they told you that, they really misled you.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          I’m sorry this has been a shock – I think it would be hard for this to be kept anonymous when they know who’s left.

    2. CAA*

      It’s very normal for your management chain to get a copy of your exit interview if it’s in writing, or the notes if it was a meeting. I’ve gotten them at every company that had an exit interview process. The timing depends on when the interview happens and how fast HR is about emailing the data. Typically I would get these docs after the employee left, just because the exit interview is usually on the last or next-to-last day, but if it happened to occur more than two weeks before the final work day, I wouldn’t be surprised or alarmed to get the notes before the employee left.

      If you’re still reporting to the AM, then you need to be professional in your interactions with him. If he wants to talk about the interview again, you can say something like “I’d prefer not to have further discussions about it. I’m here to finish out the last two weeks and transition my work as much as possible. It’s too late to go back and change the things that led up to where we are now, so I don’t want to talk about it further.” If he continues to press, then you can go to your HR person and ask them to have him back off.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. Ignore the AM, go back to the HR person who interviewed you and ask why the AM is contacting you directly. HR needs to know this is happening.

      2. Gabi*

        I did, she just said ‘we feel that it’s important that everyone receives all relevant feedback promptly and has a chance to action it as soon as possible’. So… no help there, by the sound of it.

    4. Kathenus*

      If you do want to, or are pressured to, meet with the Area Manager, you can absolutely require that HR be a part of the meeting if you’d prefer.

    5. Someone else*

      It’s weird you were contacted about what you said, but it’s also weird you had an exit interview scheduled for anything other than your last day. I wouldn’t ever expect the content of the exit interview to be private or anonymous. The whole point of them is so the company can in theory learn from anything you might say, but it’s weird to get a follow up about it because normally it happens, well, as you exit. So you’d be gone and there’s no real point in trying to come back to you about it since you wouldn’t work there anymore.

  68. Laura H*

    Pay Mistake reporting question

    So I know the root of this has been addressed and the unanimous answer, regardless of it favoring you or not is “Yes inform as soon as you find out”

    But is it odd/ out of the norm that in terms of pay mistakes/ oddities, that I’m more likely to be prompt with check on a perceived pay mistake that favors me, specifically that it looks like I got paid for x hours more than I actually worked?

    Whereas if it weren’t in my favor- I’d likely be slower to notice at the least….

    Thankfully this instance should be sorted or started on that track soon.

    Is it just me that has this weird division of urgency?

    1. Tara*

      As someone who ends up having to fix payroll mistakes, I want to know asap, but I probably won’t form an opinion about whether you’re faster about speaking up for one type of situation vs another. I’ve probably got to many other things to think about, and just want to know when there are mistakes, no matter which kind!

      1. Laura H*

        Ah.

        Thanks for the comment.

        Asked and apparently, I got some holiday pay for Xmas and New Years that was coincidentally half of my missed hours total when I was socked with the flu and missed 3 of my shifts (as an hourly nonexempt part time)

        I prolly haven’t noticed in years past because I haven’t missed shifts during that time and thus don’t see the bump.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion but I think that we tend to notice it quicker if we are shorted. I have been kind of alarmed with myself for not noticing overpayments. Part of why this was happening is the way I thought of my week pay amount.I tended to round the numbers and say to myself, “should not be less than x”. After working a bit I realized that was not specific enough. It did not protect me if there was an overpayment and I did not notify anyone.

      People on tighter budgets can also feel pressured to get a shorted paycheck remedied as quickly as possible.

      The imbalance is painfully clear. If they give me too much one week, they have my next paycheck they can just deduct that amount next pay period. They can remedy without involving me, they simply take back their money. However, if I am short money I have no way to remedy that without involving others- I cannot correct the situation myself. This can involve some panic.

      1. Laura H*

        Yeah, the overpayment happened to me and was what prompted this checking this time. It wasn’t fun having to “pay back”( basically I’d gotten that next week’s hours paid for already) the extra money, but I’m so glad I pointed it out/ found it first.

        But this time it was a happy end. Was just weird because it wound up meshing with what I missed.

  69. Persephone Mulberry*

    Does anyone have good resources for coursework – maybe even certification – in “instructional design” or “curriculum development for adult learners”? My company REALLY wants to introduce more continuing education for our client partners, and this is a great opportunity for me to grow my role/responsibilities (and maybe not be bored 30 out of 40 hours a week), but I don’t have any formal education or training in this area. Company is happy to pay for it, but I don’t want to just start Googling because I don’t know what’s legit and what’s a waste of money.

    Thanks!

    2. Emac*

      San Diego State University has a completely online grad certificate or masters program in instructional design. (Or at least the did maybe 4 or 5 years ago.)

    3. Quoth the Raven*

      Depends where you are, actually. I would look for a Masters degree level program in Instructional Design from a not for profit school with an excellent education department. I’d look for a program that is at least 3-5 years old and has a strong reputation.

      I would check the curriculum and the other qualities of the program before deciding what makes the most sense for you. Currently, I am getting a degree in Instructional Design, but I wouldn’t be doing it if it wasn’t free, because I work here. It’s a decent program, I think, but then I don’t have much to compare it too.

    4. Basia, also a Fed*

      I know this is a little late. Penn State has a 100% online master’s degree in adult education.

  70. copywriter who can't talk the talk*

    Calling content strategists, copywriters. I’ve been doing well at my job since starting a few months ago, but a weakness that has followed me from job to job is talking about my work and presenting it to a group of people. yesterday, i was asked to show my overall team some brand principles that i wrote. i put them up there, looked at the room of people staring at me, and i talked about them for like 2 seconds, and then didn’t know what else to say. i’m pretty sure i mumbled “i don’t know” in between my statements. i’m always like, “well, here they are. you can read them.” my brain just panicked and i couldn’t think of any pontification that would complement the presentation. sometimes i write things in a certain way that i know instinctually is the right way to go, but then i have a hard time articulating why i did it that way. the strategy behind what i wrote. any advice?

    1. Triangle Pose*

      Come up with it beforehand. Expect that the audience will need you to articulate why you did it this way. That is pretty much the point of having a presentation. Think about it this way, if you could just put it up there without explanation why are you presenting at all? You could put that in an email. Prepare more. Join toastmasters.

    2. K.*

      Start to be more mindful about the strategy. Take some extra time to think about why you’re doing what you’re doing. Jot down a few notes to refer to in case you’re asked to present again (odds are, you will be). How does what you came up with align with the company’s overall messaging or goals? You’re not just throwing stuff out for its own sake; somewhere in your mind, you’re making deliberate decisions. Start to bring those decisions more to the forefront as you work, and you’ll be better prepared.

      1. Shouldabin*

        I also agree with bringing your decision-making process to the forefront. You’ll feel more confident and they’ll trust your work more. What works for me is proceeding methodically and logically through a presentation (with visuals): This is the problem(s) in the industry / with customers, therefore these are the company’s goals, and therefore these are the brand principles, and here is what the principles would look like in action. Connecting abstract concepts like principles to concrete problems and results is essential to YOU feeling confident on the effectiveness of your work and THEM believing you.

    3. Triumphant Fox*

      This is a case where I think making a PowerPoint can be really helpful. Have very little content on each slide and start by having 1-3 comments per slide prepared ahead of time. It forces you to slow down and have a strategy. I would also practice your presentation ahead of time. It feels silly, but until you’ve gotten comfortable with presentations, practicing in front of a mirror or recording it and reviewing it afterward are really he only ways you’ll get better beyond just giving more poor presentations.

      Also, having developed these brand principles is useless if no one uses them. The people in your meeting don’t want to know that you “did a thing” – they want to know why you chose that thing, why they should buy into it and how they should implement it. This is an opportunity to convince and educate, not prove you did your work.

      1. Harriet*

        I agree with all of this, especially practicing out loud what you plan to say – I can do this sort of thing off the cuff now, but I only got to that stage after a year or two of planning exactly what I wanted to say in advance and then running through it out loud several times until I was no longer stumbling over words or struggling to articulate a particular point. No matter how smooth the stuff inside my head sounded, I needed to run through it to make it come out that smooth – it also helps me get it into my head so I don’t sound like I’m reading from a script.

        It is possible to get better at this – I still remember the time I was put on the spot without warning in a meeting of 50+ people and all I could do was stare mutely at the organiser, my mind went horribly blank. It just takes practice, and a lot of preparation beforehand in the early days.

  71. Algae*

    My department of 8 people has a co-worker that has several medical issues. She is in a wheelchair and has medical accommodations. She’s worked here for years and has a lot of institutional knowledge and knows the database we use practically better than anyone.

    But she’s never here. I figured it out the other day. I started in December 2016; she was on sick leave the month of December, pretty much missed every other week until June, and in June, left for 5 months. She came back for 3 weeks, and has been out since then. I feel truly awful for the medical issues she’s been having, but we’re all worn out from trying to cover her workload as well as our own.

    What are some ways we can bring this up to our manager? She’s not the greatest manager and tends to shy off from making concrete decisions, but lately, there’s been an up-tick in our workload and this has become unsustainable and I feel I need to say something.

    1. Kitten*

      This is probably one where documented facts will help you out. You’re not asking the manager to do something about the co-worker, just about the workload.

      So if you can record how many additional hours / additional projects each person is taking on, you can build up a case either for getting another team member to help carry the load, or for having some of the projects pushed back into the backlog to be dealt with later. It’s probably best to address this as a team, rather than just you needing to stick your neck out.

      Since your manager is not the best at making pro-active decisions, it might also be good to gather together a list of everyone’s projects and day-to-days tasks, prioritise them amongst yourselves, and bring that list to your manager to see if she agrees and will push back on the lower priorities (make sure she agrees first, though – she may have a different view of the big picture).

      Also, try to re-frame it in your mind if you’re carrying any guilt from this. It’s not the co-worker’s fault that they need accommodations, but it’s also not your fault that the workload is unmanagable and your team need some additional support. Covering in the short-term is one thing, but longer term, this is absolutely something that your manager needs to manage by reducing the burden on your team to a more reasonable level. Good luck!

      1. Tara*

        ^ this is good advice. You’re not bringing up your coworker’s work, just asking for support with the tasks you are unexpectedly having to get done.

  72. mostlymanaged*

    hey, I have an issue (similar to question 1 https://www.askamanager.org/2017/07/someone-left-a-self-help-book-on-my-desk-requiring-an-employee-to-be-in-the-office-more-and-more.html here)

    Someone left a self-help book about communication on my desk while me and my team were on a conference call with my boss. My entire team, my boss, and grandboss (so everyone who supervises me or works closely with me) were on this call. I’m fairly early in my career, and at the beginning of working here made some awkwardly worded statements, but most of the employees at my level are under the age of 27. I work in the tech/software department and i’m the only girl on my team– we’re all pretty awkward people, to be honest. I’m also the one who most often communicates with the rest of the company; I’m the bottle neck for requests/complaints/announcements. I try and use good and professional phrasing.

    The book was “crucial conversations: tools for talking when stakes are high.” I’m kinda wracking my brain to what it could mean! I know it’s probably nothing, but… it’s just kinda a weird thing to have on my desk? I’m not on client calls or calls where me being socially awkward could lose the company money and I think I have pretty good rapport with people in most departments here, and I’m hypersensitive to that kind of thing. I have no clue who left this on my desk– our department works in one room, and there’s nothing really in here for other departments. Anyone have any thoughts?

    1. High School Flashbacks*

      Honestly I think the answer there probably applies to this! It’s a bit odd since they didn’t leave a note but someone probably thought hey mostlymanaged is new in her career, she has to talk to the most people within the company this might be a helpful tool and didn’t think any further than that.
      It never hurts to ask your boss depending on the relationship, both about the book and any possible concerns with your communication.
      You may be overthinking those moments from when you started – If they were connected you probably would have gotten the book sooner!

    2. KayEss*

      You could ask your boss if they have any concerns about your communication skills/style, but otherwise I’d really try not to take it personally just for your own peace of mind.

      The Crucial Conversations book/program is actually pretty well regarded and probably worth a read, by the way. When I worked in an IT department, they actually paid for the entire 200+ staff (not just frontline support) to go through the training, and it’s used across many industries. Good use of it would probably prevent half of the issues people send letters to Alison about, at least regarding “how do I bring this up”/”how do I talk to my coworker/report/manager about this”.

    3. Argh!*

      It’s a good book. You could mention it to your boss and ask if there have been complaints. Passive-aggressive tactics like that mean anyone who isn’t pleased won’t confront you, but they may have said something to the boss.

      1. Anony*

        She mentioned her whole team is awkward, so it may not be intended as a passive aggressive gesture. It might have been that someone read it, found it helpful and decided to pass it along and didn’t think about how it would come across.

    4. Garland Not Andrews*

      Take a look at a review of the book. It is not really about basic communications. Many companies and universities use it in professional development. You may find it worthwhile. I read it as a part of my professional development plan for FY17. Really an excellent book.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Comments like this are very encouraging, OP. Whoever left it could have felt you have enough basics in place and they think you have the potential to grow. The book could be an awkward compliment, as in, you are doing good, keep going.

  73. A Battle of the Fruit*

    This is a first world problem but…
    Our company has a box of fruit delivered to each floor of our office every morning with a selection of apples, oranges and bananas which are available to staff on a first come first served basis. I sit on the same floor as the executive offices (the rest of the office is open plan) who have – for a want of a better term – a tea lady (Maud) who works in the morning and makes tea and coffee for the execs and their assistants. When the fruit gets delivered every morning, Maud makes sure she is the first person to the box and takes around 20% of the fruit into a separate stash for the execs, the PAs and a select group of people around the office. She also gets very cross if someone not within that group helps themselves to a piece of fruit from “her stash” when the rest of the box is emptied. A lot of people are getting frustrated as this isn’t really the point of a communal fruit stash, and obviously other floors don’t have this issue as they don’t have something as antiquated as a tea lady in the first place! She is a beloved older lady and I don’t want to upset her, but I really don’t think it’s fair! Any ideas?

    2. Anony*

      Mention the problem to either her boss or whoever is in charge of arranging for the fruit. Do it in a way that asks if she was directed to do this. If she wasn’t then when the fruit runs out and you take some from her you can say that you talked to “insert name” and the fruit is intended for everyone equally.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      It is more than likely that setting aside fruit for the executives is part of the tea lady’s job duties. She may be abusing it, she may not, however, that’s really not the issue.

      The issue is that you are running out of fruit too early. The proper action would be to contact the person responsible for the fruit orders and let them know you are running out by X time every day, and is there possibly room in the budget to increase the order? If your floor’s consumption is too high due to the tea lady’s stash, it is the fruit budget person’s responsibility to sort that out.

      Good luck.

      1. miyeritari*

        you know, at first i was about to write THIS IS THE DREAM, but honestly i enjoy the routine of making tea almost as much as i enjoy drinking it. (also i don’t forget to make it, but i often forget to drink it…)

    5. Reba*

      Clearly the solution is to get each group their own tea lady, possibly with underbutlers to take on the fruit guarding duties.

      1. Reba*

        This reply was meant to be under Elizabeth West!

        Sorry I have no help for you, Fruit Battler. That’s annoying, especially since it’s a ridiculous problem so trying to deal with it risks making you seem ridiculous too.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Yes. I have been convinced for years that they have some kind of name like lazy something or something aunt. I have no idea why!

          2. Grandma Mazur*

            A friend of ours confused dumbwaiter with lazy Susan when describing his old apartment and dinner parties he used to host. We had a very inaccurate impression of him until we cleared up the misunderstanding!

  74. Amelia*

    Anyone from the university side of things? Current phd student here wondering about how to manage being asked to do other lab projects with needing time to write thesis. PI expectation is everyone clocks 8hrs preferably 9-6 in the lab and offices then continues working on things at home. I’m really struggling with being physically in the lab and having distractions as well as the PI adding additional tasks on me. Any advice on phrasing? Is this normal for graduate environments to be still managing other projects and tasks while trying to write?

    2. Snark*

      I got my PhD five years ago or so, and it looks like nothing has changed! It is unfortunately not uncommon for grad students to be expected to do other stuff while they’re writing – I was essentially the lab manager and in charge of the undergrad techs when I was writing, and occasionally had to help others with field or lab work if it helped move forward on the grant-funded project covering all of our stipends, so….yeah.

      1. Snark*

        That said, if you’re routinely getting roped into tasks, you could discuss priorities with your PI – “I’m finding that my ability to move forward on my dissertation is getting held up by my involvement with [tasks] and I’m concerned that I won’t have enough time to [hit milestone] before [date required to graduate]. What would you like me to prioritize?” But a lot of PIs will be just like, “All of it. This grant pays your way. Figure it out.”

    3. sugarplum*

      @Snark, are you me? Except I only got my PhD four years ago.

      Yeah, that sounds normal. At the tail end of my dissertation, I was a lab manager, overseeing around a dozen undergraduate RAs, helping 4 or 5 of them with their own individual projects and honors theses, overseeing the larger study they were there to work on, teaching a large lecture, TAing another, and, you know, trying to finish MY study, get it analyzed, get it written up, and apply and interview for postdocs so… I don’t know. That’s just grad school.

    4. Dr. KMnO4*

      Unfortunately, yes, it’s normal. My last two years in grad school I was a TA, supervised 3 undergrads, and was responsible for training other grad students on a particular instrument we used. I also ran meetings with the newer grad students about the results from the instrument to ensure that the data was good. A colleague of mine was actually an instructor at our university for a semester on top of writing and other projects our PI assigned him. He mentioned to our PI that his work load was approaching 80-90 hours a week, hoping that our PI would take him off a couple of the smaller projects. Nope! Our PI said that if the work required 80-90 hours then my colleague was expected to put in the 80-90 hours a week. Obviously that level of ridiculousness is not normal, but being expected to split time between writing and other projects is normal. It’s a shame that it is considered normal, honestly.

      I hope I didn’t come across as trying to one-up your experience, I just wanted to give some examples that illustrate how common it is to not be able to devote yourself 100% to writing. I wish you luck and strength and patience as you try to finish up.

    5. Simone R*

      In my lab it’s common for people to wind down their experiments when they are writing-either a paper or their thesis. They will usually come in and sit at their desk or in a non-lab area to do it. Are their parts of your specific research you could wind down a bit without saying it and up your writing?

    6. TL -*

      Preferably 9-6 – if I were you I’d come in earlier to write (I’m not a morning person so blehh) taking advantage of 2-3 hours of quiet, productive (writing) time and then letting the rest of your day goes as it will.

      Also, prioritize, prioritize, prioritize. Some of this depends a lot on your PI, but you probably have more flexibility than you realize on timelines as long as you have tangible products for each meeting – it’s just super easy to let a day in the lab turn into 1500 little things and at the end of the day you’ve done something you’re sure but you’ve got nothing really tangible. Become as jealous of your time as your lab culture will allow.
      Example: 6-9 am, writing, only gets interrupted if the lab is on fire/PI demands it
      9-12, flexible things – emails, updating lab notebook, talking to undergrads in the lab, whatever
      12-1, lunch, great time to talk to people about experimental planning/results/questions
      1-4 pm, benchwork or meetings
      4-leaving, taking care of little things that have to wrapped up for the day.

      Obviously, that’s going to be very rough and plenty of days will not look like that, but if you can get on a schedule, you’ll be more productive because you’ll have blocks of uninterrupted time and you’ll know that you have time set aside for all the little things, rather than trying to deal with them as they come up.

      Also, headphones.

  75. rosiebyanyothername*

    It’s that time of year… how do you deal with diet talk around the office? Some coworkers are talking about setting up an office-wide weight-loss competition for money and all this talk of calorie counting is just messing with my head. How to deal?

    1. Tara*

      Silence/not engaging takes care of it a lot for me. If you actually get asked/roped into things, a simple “that’s not my thing” or “I don’t really like to talk about diet stuff [change of subject]” is usually effective enough. Non-committal “hmm” responses to other people’s diet plans/exasperations usually gives most people the hint that this is not a conversation they should be having with you.

    2. CheeryO*

      If someone just wants to talk at someone else about how much they’re loving their juice cleanse or whatever, I’ll indulge them. It doesn’t bother me as long as I don’t feel like I’m being pressured to join in. I don’t love talking about my own food choices, though (I’m active and generally healthy but alternate between eating like a rabbit and eating like a complete pig, and I don’t really feel the need to justify myself either way), so any talk about being “so good” with my salad or “so bad” with the donuts gets a shrug and a smile. I can’t picture anyone being tone-deaf enough to actively recruit for an office weight-loss competition, but I think a “Not for me, thanks!” would suffice.

    3. Louise*

      Ooooof yeah that would seriously mess with my head too, especially if the focus is on weight loss and not just encouraging healthy habits. If this is a company-sponsored/endorsed thing, I would even consider talking to someone at HR to let them know that framing health initiatives as competitions around weight loss and calories can be extremely triggering for people suffering from or in recovery for eating disorders.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      I dealt with it by bringing donuts….not to deliberately be an ass, but because I am not dieting, and as of 4 weeks ago, neither was anyone else. One person actually said that I need to stop. Ummm, “your lack of willpower isn’t my problem” was my response. If you don’t want to partake, don’t. I’m not shoving it down your throat. Geez! A box of donuts placed in a communal location is not an invitation to attack the bringer of donuts, nor an attempt to sabotage your diet…get a grip! I hate this time of year.

      My own snark aside, I’d just say nothing/not participate to the extent possible. If you are solicited, just say “no thanks” and leave it at that. If this is a frequent lunch/breakroom topic, I’d remove myself from that too and either find new folks to lunch with or go it alone. Good luck!

    5. Jessica*

      If it was just something I became aware of by something like overhearing a fragment of someone else’s conversation, I’d ignore. If anyone made a remark to me about it, or did something inappropriate like a mass email or poster, I’d shut it down pretty hard.
      I could do that, because (a) I have sufficient job security and place in the office hierarchy that I feel I can speak up, and (b) I’m at a time of life when I feel able to speak out, where Younger Me might have been too shy/intimidated/shamed. I realize not everyone has those two advantages, and I didn’t always have them myself. But consequently, I feel motivated to speak up on stuff like this, because I always feel like I’m also speaking for others who may not be able to speak.

  76. a girl has no name*

    I turned down a job offer on Monday because it wasn’t the right fit. I had to sneak off the make the call while at my current job, and when the hiring manager didn’t answer I used the wording another reader gave me and left a voicemail. He never called back, and I received an automated email saying sorry, but they have moved forward with other candidates. My friend said that it was fine to leave a voicemail, and that the email was probably how they get your name out of their system. Did I commit a huge error by leaving a voicemail?

    2. Murphy*

      No, I think you did the right thing. I agree with your friend. They probably took you out of consideration in their system and that email went out automatically.

    3. k.k*

      You’re over thinking it! I think it’s correct that those emails are often just how they clear you out of the system, or close out that opening. I’ve gotten them months and months later, long after I’d assumed I didn’t get the job, and I’ve gotten them after getting a personal email from someone. Worst case, the hiring manager never got your voicemail, decided to go with a different candidate anyways, and sent that email…in which case you’re still fine because that is a totally normal sequence of events in a hiring process. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.

    5. Kathenus*

      Just belatedly concurring with the other comments. I was in the interview process for a position once that I was very interested in, but got another offer and had to make a decision with the information available at the time. I spoke directly to the director of the organization I had been speaking with to let him know I was accepting another position but how positive I felt about their organization and the discussions we had had so far. I was surprised when two months later I got a letter saying they had moved on with another candidate – then realized it was just an arbitrary process for all people who had been in the mix for the interviews.

  77. Librarian*

    Has anyone had a problem with apathy at work? I’ve always been motivated at school and work, but I’ve noticed over the past few months that I just don’t care anymore. I have anxiety, but I don’t feel anxious about things at work that I need to get done – I feel anxious about the fact that I don’t feel anxious about these things, but not about the things themselves.

    Part of the problem is that I am the supervisor in my area, and my supervisor is extremely hands-off, in addition to knowing pretty much zero about my area. So I’m responsible for setting my own tasks, in addition to managing my staff (for which I received zero training). In addition, I’ve been doing this job on a temporary basis while they slowly (6+ months) start the hiring process – with no guarantee I will get the job even though I’ve been doing it for a year now.

    I know I need to be on top of things, especially once the hiring process starts, but I just find it hard to give a crap when I’ve received no feedback (negative or positive), no help and no guidance. Has anyone been in a similar situation? How did you motivate yourself to keep going?

    1. Lady Jaina*

      I empathize as I am in your situation now. We are over 65% understaffed and the work expectations are just not reasonable. Add in a supervisor that gives no feedback or answers emails, and the fact that staffing will not improve. This has led to an “I just don’t care” attitude. My solution was to find a new position. I am not afraid to work, but every day at work just goes no where. I took a big step back in the fall to examine what I wanted, what worked for me, and what didn’t. Honestly my motivation most days is telling myself “I am getting paid for being here today.”.

      This probably isn’t helpful.

    2. Tara*

      Job searching ;) Also, I’ve always been a goodie two shoes about following rules, so I sometimes when I’m in the apathy zone, I try to scare/pressure myself into working by asking myself “if someone came right now and asked you what you’ve gotten done/been working on, what would you say?” It’s usually enough of a scary hypothetical to motivate me for awhile. But I don’t actually think that’s healthy…. :|

    3. NoodleMara*

      I hit this point back in July and I’m job searching. I’ve found I’m not interested in the work I’m doing so I’m going to find other work related to something that I am interested in. It might also be working checking in with a doctor because I was having a combo anxiety/depression issue caused by work. I’m on a 9 month program of meds and actively trying to find a lower stress job to help with this.

    4. Quoth the Raven*

      Can you ask your manger to be more hands on? I find I sometimes have to go to my boss and be like, “Set me a deadline. I need a deadline.”

      And she’s happy to invent one for me to keep me motivated.

      I would also talk to your therapist about this if you have one. My anxiety is linked with my depression, so when I start feeling overwhelmed than I start feeling apathetic and then that’s usually a sign my depression is flaring. Not to assume yours works the same, but mental health has a way of sneaking up on you.

  78. Asperger Hare*

    Does anyone have a suggestion for how I can answer “What is your plan for the future?” without referencing my disability? (Specifically my Aspergers.)

    I could see in my recent interview that my job history wasn’t making a lot of sense without the missing puzzle piece. My plan for jobs is “find a job I can do and hang on to despite being disabled” which I can’t say, obviously. Does “looking for work/life balance” work? I don’t think it does.

    Also, because Aspergers, I *cannot* lie. I find myself incredibly distressed and uncomfortable with lying, so it needs to be something that’s true.

    1. Anon for family privacy*

      My cousin recently went through this looking for his first job out of college (he had a lot of experience and extracurricular stuff that didn’t all mesh with his degree). I believe he went with an answer like “I’m looking for a career in which I can progress to positions with greater responsibilities and duties. I’m interested in working with a company that I can remain and grow with.”

      Really, he wanted stability and an opportunity to stay with a company long enough to learn rules/procedures/etc. and really feel like an expert in his position. He’s always been the “rule-follower” in our family, so it was important for him to have that kind of structure. And now he has a job with a company that really values retention and long-term employee relationships! Good luck!

      1. Asperger Hare*

        That’s so helpful, thank you. Emphasising the desire for structure and the opportunity to develop within a company is definitely what I want.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      This is an amazing question because I also have Aspergers and cannot lie and I was considering submitting a question to Alison asking if you can be a manager if you can’t lie.
      You just need to find the honest response to the question. I’d say that you have many interests and talents and you’re still looking for the best fit at the best organization. I blew it at a lot of companies before I found the one I am at now, and when I interviewed here I had realized that I cared less about what I was doing every day and more about who I was working with and how the work mattered. I’m at a non-profit and that really resonated with the interviewers.

      1. Asperger Hare*

        That’s really helpful, thank you.

        In my most recent interview I kind of emphasised that: I want my work to be doing some good in the world, and to utilise my skills in the best way possible while doing it.

    3. k.k*

      Whenever I get a question like that (What are your plans for the future? Where do you see yourself if five years? How does this position fit in your career path?), I say something like, “I’m looking for a job where I can use and grow my skills. In the future I’d hope to be doing this same type of work, but at a higher lever with more responsibilities.”

      I don’t know for sure if I’d actually succeed at that job. I might very well fail, or only be able to do well enough for that job and not move higher. But if it worked out, I absolutely would like to succeed and move up. So for you, I think you could say something like this because it’s true. “find a job I can do and hang on to” is this same as wanting a job to use your skills. You might think that it is not likely that you’d be able to grow your skills and move up, but if that was possible wouldn’t you like to do that? They’re not asking you to predict the most likely future accurately, they’re asking what you would like to see happen in the future.

      1. Asperger Hare*

        “They’re not asking you to predict the most likely future accurately, they’re asking what you would like to see happen in the future.”

        Oh, that is very helpful to know. I have a really literal mind, and poor imagination, so asking me to say what I think I’ll be doing in the future is … kind of impossible. It makes more sense if I think of it as having a hidden ‘what do you *want* to do’ question inside it.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think one way you could angle that is to say that you’re looking to find a company to grow with — ie, angle it not that you are thinking of jobs as something you’re likely to lose, but rather that you’d like to find a position that fits the person you are now, and that will offer scope to change as the person you are changes.

  79. Lady Jaina*

    Thank you to Alison and her “How to Prepare for an Interview” guide. 2 days after Christmas I interviewed for a position that will lop off 2 hours a day in commuting. Wednesday I received a formal job offer. My husband and I went camping over the holidays, and I used your guide to prepare for the interview. I nailed the interview. The advice offered by Alison and the comments section over the last year also proved useful for informing my current supervisor that I had interviewed for the position. No burning of bridges! The career field is small enough that everyone always knows someone. The new supervisor I will be working under knows my current supervisor as both departments fall under the same DoD regional umbrella just different facilities. I am thrilled to bits that I will no longer have to get up at 0315 to go to work.

    The advice here works for all generations.

  80. Dankar*

    I’ve just resolved to take the Foreign Service Officer’s test this June, and am sort of psyching myself up for it. (I did not expect there to be such a large emphasis placed on managerial theories and styles, but it is heartening to see!)

    Is there anyone who’s taken the exam or who works as an FSO who could offer study tips and any info about work and life as a diplomat? I’ve done quite a bit of research and am planning to reach out to my region’s Diplomat in Residence, but I figure any information I can get would be a huge boon!

    1. Kate*

      There is a huge collection of FS blogs online, including ones specifically geared to those in the FSOT process, etc. I suggest starting with Life After Jerusalem’s blog sidebar (right hand side). Alternatively Travel Orders keeps a great list of A-100 stories (top bar link I think).

      1. Dankar*

        I’ve definitely been reading Life After Jerusalem, but I didn’t know about Travel Orders. I’ll definitely check that out!

    2. Tara*

      When I got a study guide for the FSOT, there were some books listed at the end as “suggested reading.” I looked at a couple, and they were surprisingly candid about the difficult bureaucratic nature of the State Department and the challenges of spending 2/3rds of your career overseas. I don’t remember the specific title, but it was good to see they want your eyes to be open about what you’re getting into.

  81. Laura the Librarian*

    I just want to give a big Thank You to Alison and others here. After over a year of searching, I finally landed a new job. Before the interview I read through all the posts on interviewing (and the comments) and I think it really made a difference!

  82. Help!*

    I could use some advice. Before the holidays, I was offered and accepted a position that requires 40-60% travel. Because of my proposed start date, I didn’t have to give notice at my current employer until after New Years, so I took the Christmas break to really mull it over. In the end, I was very concerned about the amount of travel, especially since my husband decided to have an elective, but very much needed, medical procedure with a considerable, though temporary, recovery process. I notified the prospective employer that I had to rescind my acceptance of their offer due to my husband’s medical condition. They were very kind and left the door open for us to talk in the future.

    Literally 3 business days later, my current company did a huge, ugly reorg to cut costs, though it was spun differently by management. People were let go, multiple people were demoted. Morale is in the toilet and I strongly suspect the company is in dire financial straits. Obviously I’m willing to make different arrangements to support my husband’s recovery if the alternative is being unemployed.

    The job I accepted is still posted, and on one job board, it looks like it was recently reposted. They might have decided to start the search over completely. Would it be ridiculous for me to reach back out to them and ask if the offer still stands? If so, what should I say?

    1. Future Analyst*

      Oof. I’m sorry this happened. From the new org’s perspective, I’d be hesitant to bring you on board, since the reason for turning down their offer technically hasn’t changed. And, for your sake, it sounds like 40-60% travel would be too much (it’s a LOT), so I think your best bet would be to apply elsewhere, for a job that requires less travel. If you do reach out to the new org, you should reiterate that you’re excited about the company, and that they should certainly keep you in mind for future positions that required less travel.

      1. Help!*

        Thanks! This is what my gut is telling me too – just let it go and crank up the job search. But the temptation has been strong to do whatever I can to get out of Dodge!

  83. Harriet*

    So, this week’s post about “Harriet” who was terrible at her job but near retirement made me wonder: do you think having an old-timey name like Harriet accidentally signals to people that I’m older than I am? I’m in my 30s, but have wondered before I should date more things on my resume to signal that I’m not in my 50s/60s. I know age discrimination is not legal, but I’ve wondered if people see my name and make assumptions about my age and/or technical aptitude. (Obviously not saying older people can’t be technically proficient, just that stereotypes might get in the way sometimes.)

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I’ve never considered Harriet an old sounding name, but that might be because I went to school with a Harriet in the late 90s (she’s 28 now).

      I think they’ll figure out your age based on work history and university graduation dates.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I have a name like that also but no one has ever assumed I was elderly – only that I have a “grandma name”. And names like that are resurging. My daughter’s kinder class includes a Margaret, Virginia, Mabel, Vivian, and Eleanor. I call them The Grannies.

    3. Anon Anon*

      It might, but name trends change all the time. For example, I have a name that wasn’t in the top 500 names the year I was born. Since 2005 it’s been in the top 5 names for my sex in the country.

      1. Liane*

        I was reading within the last week, that a lot of name trends skip a generation, that is, many people name their kids after a grandparent.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I don’t know if Harriet would read older to me or not because I have never met one. However, my sister’s name is Marianne, named after an aunt and great aunt. She surprises a lot of people when they meet her for the first time. She is 31. When she was job seeking, she included graduation dates. I don’t think you need to, but if you think it would be favorable to you, I would do it.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Interesting! My grandmother’s name is Marian; I hadn’t thought about it until now, but I definitely think of ‘Marian” as older and “Marianne” as younger, and aside from association I have no idea why.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Marion Ross & Mary Ann from Gilligan’s Island, maybe? Marion Ross was always the frumpy Happy Days mom in my mind who seemed 70 even when she wasn’t. Of course, Mary Ann is old now, too, but she is young on the reruns.

    5. KayEss*

      I might consider it an unusual name for a younger person, but I think I’d be more likely to assume you’re a younger person with an odd name than an older person… not 100% sure, though. If you’re really worried about it, you could use just your first initial on your resume.

    6. CheeryO*

      As a 90s kid, Harriet just makes me think of Michelle Trachtenberg as Harriet the Spy (which I just learned was based on a 1964 novel!).

    8. NW Mossy*

      My younger daughter (who’s not even two) will likely grapple with this when she’s older, as her name was common about 130 years ago but very rare today. Part of the reason I chose it for her was because old-fashioned names (especially for women) can help to offset the countervailing stereotype that young women aren’t to be taken seriously.

      My own name is one that you hear and you instantly know how old I am give or take 5 years, because it was a top 10 at the time I was born and has fallen off quite a bit since then. I look forward to the days when it’s a grandma name!

  84. Calling all Vet Techs*

    After nearly two decades and much soul searching, I have come to the conclusion it’s time to move on. My body just can’t take it anymore. I would like to move into human medicine in some sort of not nursing support role. So far the only thing I seem qualified out of the box for is reception work, whoch I wouldn’t mind. I’ve also considered getting a phlebotomy certification, since phlebotomist is emrty level for the laboratory cateer path at the local hospital. Having trouble finding an independent program that doesn’t look sketchy though. I don’t mind taking a few classes, but I would like to keep my studies online and I don’t want to get another whole degree. Currently have an associatrs in science. Anyway, looking for inspiration from others who have left the profession, where’d you go and how did you get there?

    1. TheMonkey*

      Have you considered becoming a research assistant staff member in an academic lab somewhere? The base medical, anatomical and physiological knowledge that a vet tech holds could be immediately translatable to working in biomedical research if that’s of interest to you. Depending on the place, they may want a BS, but your extensive experience might substitute for that. All the vet techs I know are amazing people that juggle multiple streams of activity simultaneously and have a great eye for detail. A research assistant or lab manager-type position might be a decent fit for you.

        1. TL -*

          If you’re a vet tech, they’re going to want you for mouse work in a lab. I don’t know if that’s a concern for you, but it’s a hugely marketable skill and it’s a hard no for some people.

    2. Lynca*

      I would check programs at your local state accredited technical colleges. They typically have the required certification programs, at least ours do.

      My sister is in the process of leaving her previous field (criminal justice) and is working on becoming a nurse. She’s taking courses when she can and currently working with her CNA to get job experience/extra money for classes.

    3. Pharmgirl*

      Have you considered pharmacy tech? There are many options beyond just retail pharmacy, though that’s the big one. Many states may not require certifications to start, but will after x amount of hours worked after you get on the job experience.

    4. Mephyle*

      One branch of my family has a cluster of cousins who all do medical support work other than nursing in hospitals. One is a perfusionist, another is an x-ray technician, and another is an accountant.

    5. kimberly*

      A little late in responding, but many places will do on the job training for both phlebotomy and nursing asst, depending on demand in the area. Esp for someone with health related experience. My hospital desperatly needs phlebotomists.

      Avoid the technical college route — your pay will not make it worthwhile. Community college courses/degree/cert on the other hand would be well worth it.

      I would lean towards something in radiology Basic xray tech is a relatively short program with decentventry level pay and you can later advance to ct tech, which i believe is usually OTJ training. Again, community college program would be best. Ultrasound tech snd nuclear med tech are also more advanced careers in radiology areas that pay really well. I want to say that US is usually a stand-alone degree while nuc med tech needs basic xray tech experience first, but that knowledge might be outdated.

      1. kimberly*

        A couple of other thoughts …
        Along the lines of US tech is Echo tech. They do ultrasounds of the heart. I’m not sure what kind of money those make, but I think it is pretty good. That is usually in the cardiology dept rather than the radiology dept.

        Another possibility is scrub tech — either in surgery, cardiac cath lab, or interventional radiology. I want to say that cath lab and IR both use radiology techs as their scrubs, but that could be regional. Surgical scrub tech would be either a diploma program or an associate’s degree.

        Having been a vet tech for so many years, you probably have an excellent foundation for many of these jobs. I’m guessing you’ve been doing Xrays and phlebotomy and assisting in surgery/procedures on your furry patients, so learning to do it on humans won’t be difficult.

        A caveat … almost all of these jobs (with the exception of basic XRay tech, phlebotomy, and nursing asst) will more than likely require you to be on call. It is possible to work in a medical center that is either so small that they don’t put people on call, or so large that they staff 24 hrs/day and don’t need to put anyone on call, but that isn’t very likely. (And the really large places usually have back up staff on call even if they do staff 24hrs/day). How often you have to be on call and how often the on call staff get called in depends on the facility. I once worked somewhere that the tech on call for IR was two states away. He hadn’t been paged while on call in over 2 years, so he stopped scheduling his life around it.

        If you’re still reading this and have any questions, post here and I’ll look later this afternoon when I get up (I work nights). I’m a nurse, not an xray tech but I used to work closely with the radiology dept.

        1. Calling all Vet Techs*

          Still lurking about :) Interesting about xray, I thought it would take more school than that. And I wouldn’t have to physically hold the person on the table. Nursing assistant is probably more than I can handle, I have well controlled fibromyalgia but I do have to watch my physical activity to keep it in check. Working about 3/4 time currently ,so I could afford a small drop in hourly pay and still be ok, especially if there’s on the job training potential. thank you for your reply!

          1. kimberly*

            I want to say that the XRT program (diploma) at my old hospital system was 18months. Looking at my local community college, it is 2 yrs including summers. Ultrasound (Diagnostic Medical Sonographer) is 2 years with one summer, but has pre-reqs. If you have physical limitations, US might be the way to go — esp cardiac echo. I don’t think that is very physically demanding. I know the vascular people can have to exert some significant pressure sometimes to see if the vessels are compressible or not (looking for clots). The thing with XRT would hauling people on/off the table and positioning them (there is always help though, you aren’t doing it on your own). Echo can be done at bedside. You do have to drag the machine around, but that isn’t usually too horrible. Of course only you can determine what you are able to do.

            Also — if lifting is an issue, consider working in peds if working with sick kids doesn’t bother you. There is still lifting involved since peds can usually include those up to age 22, but the lifting load is significantly less. Places like NICUs (neonatal) don’t always hire ancillary staff but many do and then the lifting is limited to restocking things. In the one I worked in they did things like basic baby care on the less-sick kids (weights/baths/feeding/diapers/cuddling), kept things stocked, changed beds, cleaned cribs, made formula, some labs (heelsticks).

            OB tech might be another option, depending on how you feel about the world of labor and delivery.

            Good luck and let me know if yo have any questions.

  85. Action Heroine*

    A friend and former coworker of mine is job hunting, and I was wondering if anyone had any advice I could pass along to her (I would point her to this website directly, but she doesn’t have a computer). We worked together at a food bank. Her job mainly consisted of warehouse-type duties and driving a shuttle bus to a grocery store. The only reason she is no longer working there is because as with many non-profit jobs, hers was grant funded and the funding expired. As far as I saw, she was a hard worker, very capable, and got along with her coworkers.

    Here’s the issue: she has a felony drug conviction. While she was recently released from probation a year early, the felony is obviously not a plus when she discloses it on job applications. I know from working with her and talking to her that she’s committed not only to recovery, but to making a better life for herself and her family. It’s clear that having a job is a big part of that for her — not only for practical reasons like money and providing a good example for her children, but as part of her positive self-identity.

    Does anyone have any advice for how she might go about addressing the felony in a way that would underscore her commitment to being a good (and sober) employee, especially on job applications that aren’t for the type of work that typically require a cover letter? She has solid references from her supervisors (and I’ve offered to be a references as well, with the caveat that since I didn’t supervise her, what I say won’t carry as much weight), but other than that, any advice? Thanks so much!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      First of all – she shouldn’t be disclosing the felony on job applications or talking about it in her cover letter!

      That being said – when she does discuss it (likely during the interview process), she should be very matter of fact. “X happened and I have taken Y and Z steps to correct it”.

      She also shouldn’t be discouraged if she’s not eligible for a position because of the conviction. Some places have very strict background policies due to the nature of their work or funding and the best way to move forward with this kind of thing is to get time and distance from it.

    2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      What state are you in? Minnesota where I live has a “ban the box” law where one can’t ask about crimes on initial job apps- must make conditional offer of employment first.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      You say she has a felony drug conviction and then you mention probation….do you mean parole? Did she serve time? If she received deferred adjudication probation in lieu of incarceration, she may not even have to disclose it. It depends upon how the application is worded. My husband is a felon….conviction almost 20 years ago and a nonviolent offender who served time (theft when he was 18). Your gal has a tough road ahead regardless of the state law regarding criminal questions on job applications. Once the interviewer finds out, it is often game over.

      My best advice would be to seek out positions with companies/organizations that are known to hire folks with a criminal record. And don’t disclose it until she receives an offer or whenever they mention a background check. And then, as Detective Amy Said, be matter of fact in what occurred, when, and what she has accomplished since then. My husband had the best luck with small businesses. Small businesses tend to pay the least and have little to no benefits and therefore can’t really be as choosy with who they hire/many people won’t work for a small business for that reason. My husband was always up front about his past and had the best luck that way. Also, FWIW, former addicts seem to have the best prospects. So long as you appear to be clean and sober, everyone likes a good comeback story and most people have known someone with a drug problem at some point in their life, which makes it more relatable.

      Best of luck to your friend! I know the struggle and frustration she is probably feeling.

    4. Anono-me*

      I don’t know about the verbiage, but you friend might want to look into fields tj2at traditionally have been considered men’s. Both because the pay is usually better and because for many of the positions the felony wouldn’t be an issue. ( For obvious reasons people are less likely to worry about someone with an old felony drug conviction doing drywall than if they are working as a CNA.)

      Also, lots of traditional male fields are offering training or internship programs to become more balanced.
      Good luck to your friend.

  86. The IT Manager*

    I live and work from home in New Orleans. I just put in for my Mardi Gras leave. I work for the national office of a big agency so I know why I don’t get Mardi Gras off as a holiday; although, people in the agency’s local facility must have it off because no one here (in a Mon-Fri job) works Mardi Gras. Which absolutely makes sense because customers would not come in and traffic would be a nightmare on Mardi Gras. Although the evening commute is probably a nightmare for a lot of people starting the Wednesday evening before Mardi Gras because the night parades start that night.

    I’m knocking off early Wednesday through Friday before Mardi Gras to be able to get to the parades without rushing, and I’m coming in late Thursday and Friday so I can sleep a bit late after a night out. I took off Lundi Gras and Mardi Gras.

    Anybody else have to take off for local holidays like that?

    1. Merci Dee*

      One of my sisters used to live in Mobile, and faced the same situation with her company’s downtown office during Mardi Gras. Everyone got Mardi Gras and Ash Wednesday off, but she said the office was generally deserted for Thursday and Friday before. Was nice if you wanted to come in and get some work done without distractions; was garbage if you didn’t have access to the executive parking area and needed to park on the street.

    2. Karen K*

      Maine and Massachusetts take the third Monday of April off for Patriots Day. I don’t know what makes us more patriotic than the rest of the country. Apparently it’s something left over from when Maine was a part of Massachusetts.

    3. Julianne*

      We used to get Evacuation Day (March 17) and Bunker Hill Day (June 17) off. They took Bunker Hill Day away because we don’t really need a day off a week before summer vacation starts, and we traded Evacuation Day for an extra day of winter break (not a good trade, IMO, March is a looooong slog in years when Easter falls in April).

    4. DDJ*

      Sort of similar? I live in a city that has a major annual event (attendance of over 1 million people, sort of thing), though it’s in no way a “holiday.” I do NOT like dealing with the commute during that time (public transit becomes a disaster), so I take the whole week off. It’s my annual vacation time. Thankfully it always tends to fall during a time that I can afford to be out of the office.

  87. Michael in Boston*

    Just wanted to share that I will be starting a new job in about a week from now! I’m very grateful to the advise and know-how I’ve gained from reading on this site as well as Alison’s ebook.

    I will be leaving a great company and a lot of good people, but also a position that I never felt fulfilled by. My new job will have a worse commute, but definitely more projects for me to work on as well as more pay!

    My encouragement to everybody out there who is searching!

    2. nep*

      Well done, Michael in Boston. Congratulations and all the best in the new position.
      And thanks for the boost for those of us searching.

  88. Linzava*

    Has anyone heard the apology from Dan Harmon? It got me thinking about my own career as someone in her early 30’s who’s worked as an admin since the age of 16. I am now, for the first time in my career, working at an amazing office with all men who treat me with the utmost respect. Not a single one has ever even made a comment about my appearance. I can come in with curly or straight hair, makeup or no makeup, dressed up or casual with no comments. I’m so happy over this seemingly tiny thing, but it means everything. I had no idea until this job how careful I’ve been for so many years over my body language. So careful that I stopped being myself completely in an office environment. For the first time in my life, my gender is not a consideration, I’m talented because I am talented. It means so much to me, more than it should.

  89. Emac*

    I came across a comment in a thread from May 2016 by Viktoria about her job as a social/ethical auditor. I’d love to know more about that job and how to find jobs like that, if she’s still around or if anyone else has ever done/heard of jobs like that. I tried some searches on job sites but didn’t come up with anything like what she described.

    Here’s the comment: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/05/my-company-wants-to-stop-me-from-discussing-my-salary-with-coworkers.html#comment-1072982

    1. Kate*

      The sister of an ex of mine did a job like that. She was an independent contractor (a genuine one, not an Uber-like one) and companies like The Gap would hire her to surprise audit their factories in various countries.

      A bit of a different flavor, but similar, are jobs with review or oversight bodies for national security agencies. The Aussies have the Office of the Inspector General of Intelligence and Security, the Germans have the Parliamentary Control Panel, the UK has a bunch of them , the US has the Office of the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community…

  90. Anonmoose*

    So, I have a good boss story for a change.

    I have previously posted in the open threads a while ago (regular going anon here), about how I would get too hot in my office but I wasn’t comfortable in short sleeves either because of some extensive, old self-harm scarring. Eventually, I decided it was okay, and began to sometimes lay off the jackets/full sleeves.

    Then one day, my blazer got ruined on the way to work, so I hung it on my chair to dry and worked in short sleeves. Figures that’s the day my boss came to talk to me! Well, it was awkward, she kind of gaped, asked what happened, I said I don’t talk about it, she kind of stumbled and said, “but what…how…did you…” before kind of shaking herself and going back to her office without remembering what we were going to discuss.

    The next week, she called me to her office, and I thought I was in trouble, but instead she apologized for staring and fumbling. Told me that her daughter was having problems with self-harm at the time, so it was personal. I feel awkward knowing this, but I did recommend some books and websites to look at that might help. She thanked me, and now several months later, her daughter is doing better. Not where she wants to be, but getting there. I have encouraged my boss to also get help for herself and not to get frustrated when the kid slips up. I think it’s helped too to see that I’m fine.

    So last week we got a new employee and today was the first day new person saw anything. He asked me what had happened and was getting a bit pushy when I said I didn’t discuss it. It was uncomfortable, but my boss was on her way out to make some copies, heard this, and diplomatically told new guy to lay off and let me take an extra break because I was a bit upset.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      That’s really encouraging on both sides. I’m happy you were able to help your boss with something so personal to both of you (that’s understandably awkward to have to explain on either side), and I’m encouraged that your boss was able to tell new guy to stuff it and help you out later. I think I got something in my eye, dangit.

      1. Anonmoose*

        Thanks! I didn’t really feel like it was much my business, especially because well, it’s my boss and I don’t want her knowing too much about me. Totally awkward.

        On the other hand, I had begun that when I was a little younger than her daughter at the time, and it went on for…nearly four years I think. I didn’t want another young person to deal with that problem for such a long time or have the physical risk and emotional pain. I also had some experiences after adults in my life found out, and while getting better, that were humiliating, shaming, degrading, or otherwise badly handled. So I just passed some resources along and common sense stuff, like “if you take your daughter to the doctor/ER I
        if needed, they may treat her badly, be sure to go with her and be ready to be an advocate,” “don’t punish her for it,” and “make sure she knows she can talk to you about how she feels and come to you for help if she needs patching up- but above all, stay calm, deal with your feelings about this without involving her.”

        (It’s a balance. One doesn’t want to be cold, but also don’t freak out because that garners more attention. Instead give normal, positive attention for things other than the person’s problems, and for dealing with their emotions in less destructive ways).

        …I went off on a tangent there, sorry!

  91. DCGirl*

    Has anyone ever requested a reasonable accommodation for attention issues and anxiety in the workplace? Ever since we moved to our new wide open space in December, my concentration is shot. I don’t sleep well most nights, I don’t sleep at all Sunday nights, my doctor says my blood pressure is up. I’ve had my neuropsych testing repeated (it was originally done 15 years ago) and am working on the request (which is managed by Cigna). I’d just be interested in hearing from anyone else with similar issues. I’d change jobs at this point (my boss outright laughed at me the day we moved in and I started to cry) but how do you find an employer than hasn’t embraced the open concept space. I doubt they’ll do much more than give me better headphones — our CEO is so wedded to the design she chose she won’t even let us have coat racks.

    1. Curious Cat*

      One office I used to work in was all about the open office concept, however they did also have a couple rooms specifically set aside with comfy chairs and a large table/desk for those who just needed to get out of the open area and get some work done in peace and quiet! Any chance you all have a room like that, or one that could even be converted into?

      Not sure if that’s helpful or even feasible, but it was a nice touch to have in an open office space.

      1. DCGirl*

        There are “phone rooms” where you can go to make/take personal phone calls. They tend to be camped in by people at the director or higher level when they are visiting from other offices because they absolutely refuse to sit in the hoteling spaces out on the floor.

    2. a pox on open offices*

      I’ve never asked for accommodations, but I’m in a similar place, and it really sucks. My anxiety wasn’t so bad when we moved to the new space, but my concentration was shot to hell and my productivity tanked, which led to Serious Conversations with my boss. And when my anxiety started flaring up again, it felt like everything about the office was triggering it. I spent several weeks feeling like I was seconds away from either having a panic attack or bursting into tears at my desk (which would happen in clear full view of EVERYONE IN MY COMPANY, because open office). We don’t have quiet rooms, and our private phone rooms and conference rooms all have glass walls.

      But not all open offices are created equal (and not all bosses laugh at you when you cry, wtf) so I wouldn’t assume that you’ll be this miserable for the rest of your career with no escape. Some things that helped me:

      -If you have the ability to work from home, take it take it take it. It was unreal how non-anxious I was on days we were snowed out of the office, and how much more productive I was when I didn’t have to focus all my energy on not crying. A reasonable manager would let you wfh as long as you’re able to get work done, but if not, accommodations may help.

      -They’re expensive, but noise canceling headphones saved my life. Noise carries in an open space, and when you’re already in fight-or-flight mode, every sudden or loud noise makes your panic spike. Plus you won’t be distracted by conversations happening around you.

      -If your office has a quiet room or private phone room, don’t be afraid to book it if you feel yourself spiraling. You might be able to book the nursing/wellness room if your office has one. Just being alone for 15 minutes with no one disturbing me can really diffuse my panic.

      -See if you can work earlier or later (8-4, 10-6) which will let you work when the office is emptier. I used to work a lot of overtime, because the only time I could concentrate was if the office was nearly empty.

      -See if you can move your desk. Mine is on a busy walking path and within full view of the reception area, so people were walking behind me every second. I also had my back to the rest of the room, which made me antsy. These are things to think about when you’re looking for a new job, too.

      -If you’re interviewing at a company with an open office, ask if they have a quiet room or private work space. Ask what their work from home policy is. See how noisy the office is, and how far the kitchen foozball table is from the work area. Most importantly, ask how they deal when an employee is having difficulty with the open environment. If they don’t take your concern seriously, or if they say that everything is wide open because all their workers love collaboration and connection, that’s a red flag.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this, and I hope some of this helps! It’s also easy to feel like you’re experiencing anxiety because your situation is really the worst thing ever and the end of the world, but managing your anxiety might make the situation a lot more bearable. Best of luck.

      1. DCGirl*

        Thank you. You seem to understand exactly how I feel. There are exactly two “phone rooms” that have devolved into visiting office space for higher ups from other locations who refuse to sit in the hoteling spaces because they’re too high and mighty to sit with us.

        They’ve actually cracked down on working from home because the whole purpose of this redesign is for people to collaborate, so that’s definitely something I”m asking for as an accommodation. I’m also asking for better tools to work from home effectively, i.e., an external monitor for my laptop because I get headaches from looking down at a laptop screen all day (long story short, my anxiety stems from being hit by a car as a pedestrian, in which I injured my back and neck badly).

        I already work early hours, 7:30 to 3:30. I can’t get out of a high traffic area because they’ve grouped teams to be in “neighborhoods”. The only way to get a desk where my back is to a wall or a window is to be a director, and I’m only a manager. I just want to be in a corner away from everybody, and that’s not possible in this design.

        I’m also involved in an HR investigation into how my boss has been handling this so far, because the laughing and teasing has to stop.

        Thank you for your thoughtful response.

        1. Natalie*

          They’ve actually cracked down on working from home because the whole purpose of this redesign is for people to collaborate

          Ugh, I’m going to strain my eyeballs if I keep rolling them like that. I’ve never known a group of people that desperately needed to collaborate and were somehow hampered by the existence of walls or cubicles. Seems like people are generally capable of calling or emailing or walking to their colleague’s office to chat when it’s actually warranted.

          1. Jessica*

            Yeah, my workplace has developed a super special secret technique for promoting collaboration between people who physically work in different offices, and it’s highly effective. I can’t reveal the details as they’re proprietary, but it’s called a “meeting.”

    3. SQL Coder Cat*

      So sorry you are dealing with this DCGirl!

      I’ve never requested an accomodation, but I was involved when my last job went to an office office hotdesking system (with 300+ people, no less). We built into our design approximately 30 desks along the wall that were reserved for individuals who required special accomodations- for anxiety, mobility, health, whatever. Individuals were permanently assigned desks in this area if they requested accomodation or by request from their manager. There was no pushback and everyone understood. This is an EASY accomodation for them to make and if your company is a reasonable size they shouldn’t give you any pushback because the fact is, there’s no real cost to letting you have a specific desk that meets your accomodation needs (that wonderful ‘reasonable accomodations’ clause).

      Good luck and let us know how it goes!

  92. Wendy Darling*

    When is it appropriate for me to ask my boss about my contract being extended or me being converted to a permanent employee?

    I’m currently a W2 contractor, which is super common in tech and basically means I am a highly skilled temp. I am a W2 hourly employee of a staffing agency, which has placed me with a company. I have a manager and am on a team at the company, but the staffing agency pays my wages and gives me my benefits (which… except what is legally required in my state I don’t get any). My contract is for six months, and I’m about halfway finished.

    Realistically this means I want to start looking for work in the next month, because it’s likely to take me 2-3+ months to get another job. However, it’s very possible that my contract will be extended, and I’d definitely prefer to stay at this job than jump to another contract, which is likely what would happen. How soon is too soon to ask about this?

    1. clow*

      I was a contractor for a tech company for 4 years (9 months at a time). Each time I would ask around 2-3 months before my contract ended. I asked about extension and I also asked if my manager would let me use them as a reference. I let them know that I was really interested in moving over to permanent if the possibility arose but that until that time, I was going to look for other permanent positions. None of my managers felt it was a bad time to ask or too early.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      1 month + the time you expect it would take you to find a new job. So, in your case you would ask 4 months before your contract ends.

  93. Anon For Diet Talk*

    A close colleague of mine was recently diagnosed with diabetes. She’s made significant changes to her life (eating, exercise, medication, managing stress, etc.) and is doing great with managing her illness. It’s also resulted in significant weight loss, which she’s excited about (she wasn’t actively looking to lose weight, but her medication apparently often results in weight loss). She’s been updating me on various exciting changes — new clothing sizes, inches lost, etc.

    I’m fat, and while I struggle with my own emotions about my size, I fundamentally do not believe that being thin is better than being fat.

    What should I do? I don’t really want to shut her down — she’s healthier, and she’s thinner, and she’s excited about both. But I also don’t really know what to say when she tells me about her weight loss successes. I know she’s expecting a “congratulations!” but that’s not how I feel. (I don’t think being thin is something to congratulate; I think the size of your body is value-neutral.)

    1. RVA Cat*

      Maybe a “good for you!” To her, it will sound like congratulations, but you can mean it more as “you do you.”

      1. Anon For Diet Talk*

        But I don’t think it’s good for her. I don’t think the size of her body (at any size) is good or bad.

        I’m happy to offer congratulations and support on her better health (and do so), but not on her body size or weight.

        1. WellRed*

          But…it is good for her. Dropping pounds can lead to better blood glucose. I’d do what the others have suggested and just be neutral. Also hang in there. Once the excitement wears off, she’ll probably stop boring you, and everybody else, with it.

          1. Anon For Diet Talk*

            Good point! This too will pass, probably fairly soon.

            (But I’ll continue to push back on the idea that losing weight = good. In her case, she’s both celebrating her improved health AND her smaller size — as in, she’ll tell me about her improving blood glucose measurements and her excitement over buying a smaller size top — but those things aren’t intrinsically connected.)

            1. TL -*

              I wouldn’t push back with her – I don’t know her weight or risk factors or diagnosis but with type 2 diabetes and other metabolic disorders in overweight (medical term here) patients, the symptoms/management of those diseases are often helped by losing weight, among other lifestyle changes. So in her specific case, there’s a good chance that her smaller size is having a direct impact on improving her health.

        2. Wendy Darling*

          Can you spin “good for you” as “it’s good for you that you’re pleased about this”? She’s clearly happy about it and I think it’s fine to congratulate her for doing something she’s very pleased about.

          1. Anon For Diet Talk*

            That’s the line I’ve tried to walk — sharing in her excitement that she gets to do something she hasn’t done before (buy a shirt from a brand that didn’t used to fit her, etc.).

            1. Jessica*

              Honestly, if she tried to celebrate this at me, what she’d get is me civilly pointing out that one way to be an ally against size discrimination is refusing to buy brands that won’t make their clothes in plus sizes. Of course one might be happy about gaining access to societal privilege, as it makes your life easier, but expecting friends who themselves don’t have that privilege to do the rejoicing with you is a bit tone deaf.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Can you find a neutral comment that emphasizes her health more than her appearance? Like “I’m glad you’re feeling healthier…” or something?

      1. Anon For Diet Talk*

        Hmm. I don’t think I want to take this tack when she explicitly is talking about her size, because it reinforces the idea that weight loss = health. So, if she says “I have to tell you, I’m so excited — I went to buy new jeans and I tried on Size X and they were too big, so I tried on Size X – 1 and they were too big, and can you believe these are Size X – 2?” I don’t want to say “I’m glad you’re so much healthier.”

        We’ve also talked about her health (her blood glucose level primarily) and I’m happy to make those comments then.

        1. purple orchid pot*

          You’re not alone in trying to find a way to not equate body size, health, and worth as a person. Maybe in this context you could say something that just describes the situation warmly without actually commenting on it, such as “you sure do seem excited!” or “seems like you had a fun shopping trip!” This way you’re not congratulating, and not saying anything that would be self-deprecating or demeaning to a person of any size who’s also nearby enough to hear the conversation, etc.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I would just say something like “Yay for new clothes!” and leave it at that when she’s talking about shopping. I mean, everyone buys new clothes, so that’s not really size-specific.

          If she starts lecturing you, of course, then it’s okay to back away from the conversations, but it doesn’t sound like she’s doing that. It’s nice that you’re being supportive of her though. This is a big change for her.

    3. too personal for normal handle*

      I go the route of “congrats on getting healthier. I’m always in favor of people trying to be healthier, whatever that looks like.” And then change the subject. Because yes, she’s getting healthier. For her, that looks like losing weight. Maybe for you healthier is getting an extra hour of sleep consistently.

      and maybe a conversation at some point that points out that you’re happy for her, but diet talk is really boring for everyone else.

    4. Kelly*

      Can you reply with “I’m happy your health is better”, placing emphasis on health and not weight?

      Kelly

    5. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I disagree with the defeatism and victimhood that one can see in the fat acceptance movement, but I agree that you’re not a worse person, immoral, or whatever for your size. I’m kind of fat too, and it helps me to say that I am not bad for being so, and I can make choices in my life, to change if I want. Since mid December I have used my Fitbit food tracker, and gone down a pants size and lowered my chest/waist circumference (I don’t weigh because I had a bad time where I was thin and weighing myself 4-5 times a day). I don’t care much about getting compliments, but rather that my health is better. I can do yoga better and have more stamina, my running time is better, I don’t have acid reflux nearly every day any more, and my skin issues are subsiding somewhat. Maybe your coworker is happy about similar improvements.

      It’s annoying I think when people go on about weight and expect congratulations, but you’re not buying into a moral mindset you don’t like by, for instance, saying that you’re glad she is feeling better now, or that health aspect X has improved for her.

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you rephrase it as, “I’m glad you’re doing well,” or “I’m glad to hear you’re feeling great,” which shifts the focus to how she feels versus how she looks?

    7. Louise*

      Could you do an “I’m really happy for you that you’re feeling healthier! I try to keep weight/body/heath stuff out of my head while I’m at work, could we move on to another topic?”

      1. Tara*

        Yeah, you could just walk it back in general, something along the lines of “Hey, I know you’re excited about all the changes you’re going through, but I have things going on right now outside of work and I’d just appreciate it if we could back off the body/diet talk. Thanks! How are your cats[/etc.]”

      2. Overeducated*

        Yeah, I think it would not be offensive to be direct here. You could even say that you’re thrilled for her health and happiness but you’re fat too and talking about weight loss specifically makes you feel bad.

    8. CheeryO*

      Thinner isn’t morally better, but the changes she’s made have made her healthier. You’re not obligated to congratulate her, but it would be nice to say something positive now and then since you’re close with her.

    9. Former Retail Manager*

      My go-to is “That’s great news….glad to hear that you’re feeling so much better.” And I leave it at that. I leave the emphasis on their health and how they feel whenever those discussions come up.

    10. Ramona Flowers*

      Not sure if you’ll see this but I think it’s really important to remember that her feelings are not more important than your feelings. You’re worried about upsetting her – but she’s upsetting you and it’s okay to try to change that. Please don’t feel you have to just be a captive audience.

      A useful phrase for this can be “You weren’t to know but…” For example: “You weren’t to know but I’d prefer not to discuss diets and weight.” Then change the subject. I find that saying this can work well as the unsaid part is “but now you do know” while also not blaming them for not realising. It also works when the person quite clearly should have known.

  94. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Just a quick update:
    I FINALLY got up the courage to talk to the office winker! I took Cabinet Door Builder’s advice (thank you to all who chimed in with their experiences and suggestions), and asked him not to wink at me. I also explained that I understood it was probably a habit for him, but that he shouldn’t be winking at his coworkers at all since it might give people the wrong impression. He was very understanding and thanked me for speaking to him directly about it. The next time I saw him, he winked at me out of reflex and then cringed at himself, ha ha. He then promised he would work on breaking that habit. So glad the hard part is over, which turned out to be not that hard at all!

    1. fposte*

      Dude, I so thought that you had an office something else on first read. I am very glad that you didn’t, and that the situation is resolved.

  95. Aphrodite*

    I’d like to make a positive comment this week about my workplace. It is a two-year community college in southern coastal California. We have suffered through fire and flood–I’m waiting for the locusts– and the 101 freeway was shut down due to horrendous mud/water slides. There is no drive-able way to go south from Santa Barbara unless you take a six-hour detour north, then east, then south. But two tourist boats and the train are now running between Santa Barbara and Ventura.

    The president of the college who shut it down and gave the employees multiple days off with pay to deal with evacuations and such yesterday announced that anyone who used the boat and/or train to get to work next week (we are off on holiday on Monday, which is when the freeway might open) will be reimbursed from our college’s foundation.

    I have never been so touched by so much caring as by this president. I want to SHOUT OUT that he is spectacular.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      That is amazing! I have a close friend who lives and works in SB whose boss is being the opposite of yours so this is wonderful to hear!

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      You might want to send something to the Chronicle of Higher Education. We could all use a feel good story.

  96. Emily Teapots*

    I’ve been in my current job for two years now and I am starting to look around for other jobs in my company. My boss has advised me in order to show I am ready and interested to upper management I need to start applying for EVERY JOB that the company posts, even if i do not meet requirements or do not want the job. She says this will get me interview practice and also alert other departments I am looking. I don’t feel this is correct because I don’t think its appropriate to waste the time of the recruiters and managers hiring if there is ZERO chance I can or will take that job. Am I being overly anxious about this or is this bad advice?

    3. k.k*

      Trust your gut on this one! Besides annoying the hiring manager, it will make you look totally clueless.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That is terrible advice. It makes you look wishy-washy and uncertain of your career goals.

    5. Future Analyst*

      Yeahhhhh, don’t do that. Apply for the ones you think you’d like and are remotely qualified for. Scattershot applications are awful, and they don’t endear you to whoever is reviewing.

    7. Someone else*

      Nope! Definitely do not do that. As a recruiter, someone who applies to everything we post gets pretty much an automatic ‘no’, even if it’s for a role that they might be good for; kind of like a ‘boy who cried wolf’ type of things. Apply for things you’d be interested in. Apply for things you think you only fit most of the requirements for. But definitely don’t apply to everything.

      If you want to let other departments know you’re looking, and you’d be interested in moving there, tell them! Find someone in the department- doesn’t even have to be a particularly high-ranking person- and ask if there’s anything coming up. That way, when something comes up that they think you’d be good for, they can let you know. If you want interview practice, meanwhile, I’d suggest practicing with a friend or colleague, or on your own if all else fails.

  97. petpet*

    Can anyone advise me on what to do about an inadequate colleague?

    I’m in a small department of 6 and two of us are the designated Spout Designers – design takes place all year but we have 3 incredibly busy periods annually. My co-designer left last January and I was the solo designer until October. The others in my department pitched in with painting and color selection during busy times, but the vast bulk of the work fell on me.

    We finally hired Fergus to replace my former colleague, and I’ve been training him on spout design. We’re wrapping up a busy season and I am still having to double-check and correct his work at all steps because of his constant mistakes and procrastination. He seems to not be grasping a lot of core concepts and we’re not communicating very well. I approached our manager yesterday and she told me he has disclosed that he’s struggling with a situation in his personal life and she would like us all to be as understanding and flexible as we can.

    I sympathize, but I’ve found more errors this morning that mean we’re going to miss two production deadlines. I have been without adequate help for a YEAR and I don’t see an end in sight. I know that he will never be fired for this (we’re both union-represented and this isn’t something at a level that would warrant firing). Any tips for how to deal?

    1. fposte*

      Ugh. Is it something getting a temp in would help with? If so, go back to your boss with that suggestion. Failing that, talk to her about the fact that production deadlines not only won’t be met but need to be recast for the foreseeable future, since not only is Fergus not pulling his weight, you can’t make your usual levels given how much time you have to spend on his work.

      1. petpet*

        We don’t have the budget for a temp, unfortunately. We do have a new colleague starting in early March who is supposed to help on a paint/color level, but I still won’t have an actual partner unless Fergus gets his act together. It’s his first job out of college and my manager believes that he will grow into the role, but she’s confided in me that she hasn’t seen much growth yet.

        The deadlines are fixed – we need things to be ready for a company-wide festival. We’ve been incredibly short-staffed this past year – as soon as we hired Fergus, Lucinda announced her departure (that’s the role getting filled in March), and Percival is out on a 6-week medical leave. We’re all stretched thin and I hate to be the squeaky wheel with my manager, who is wonderful and doing her best, but this is becoming untenable.

        1. fposte*

          It sounds to me like the wheel’s going to fall off soon if somebody doesn’t oil it. I’d squeak.

    2. Anon Anon*

      Can you ask your boss for more help? Explain that you are going to miss two deadlines, and if the extra workload has been negatively impacting your health then I would bring that up. It’s fine to be accommodating and understanding when an employee is struggling, but that understanding and accommodation shouldn’t come at the expense of burning out other staff.

    3. Someone else*

      I don’t know what to tell you to do, but I completely sympathize. My Fergus has been failing miserably for close to two years now and Management keeps telling me “changes are coming” and then they don’t.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      Push this onto your boss. Right now your boss is feeling no pain since you are covering for Fergus. Don’t double check and correct his work — tell Fergus to ask your boss to double check his work. Focus on your job, and getting your tasks done.

      1. Wubbletelescope*

        Ask for more money. You’ve been pulling more than your own weight for a long time and there is no real end in sight. Ask for a title change too.

        This is not really how to fix your bad work situation advice, I know. But if you have to be in a bad situation working for two pweople, you should at the very least be compensated for it.

  98. lalla*

    Hi all,

    I’ve been filling in unofficially for a more senior role than my official one for over a year and have been really successful (receiving great feedback, winning awards etc.). The company has finally advertised the role and have given the impression that this is a box-ticking exercise and they’ve done this just for me (which annoys me on behalf of anyone else who’s applying, but that’s another issue).

    I want to do the whole thing properly, partly to make absolutely sure I get the job, partly so that there’s a record that I deserve it and no justification in the idea that the job has just been given to me without me proving my worth like everyone else has to.

    But I’m struggling to get my head into the right place when preparing for the interview. The interviewer will be my current boss, who knows me well, knows exactly what my skills and achievements are, and is one of the people who keeps nominating my work for awards.

    I’ve read through the job description and every single item on there is something I’ve been doing for at least a year. I don’t know how to frame answers around why I want the job – if I don’t get it, I’ll probably find myself doing the same job anyway (or training my replacement) because of the skills gap in the business. The only difference is the salary and the job title but I can’t say that! And I don’t know what kinds of questions to ask when I know the role and the department so well.

    Any tips?

    1. WG*

      Where you’re already doing the job, could you ask questions about the future of the job? Talk about things you’d improve or enhance if you had the role permanently? Are there tasks or projects you would handle differently if the role were your regular job and not just covering a vacancy? Have you seen areas that could be completed more efficiently? Would you cultivate more or different professional relationships?

      Can you dig deeper into why this role appeals to you – not just because you’re already doing it, but what it is about this particular work that interests you? How do your education/skills/experience make you well qualified, besides the fact that you’re already doing the work?

      I once had to interview for a job I’d already been doing for a year (I was hired as a one-year interim to cover a medical leave). When the person on medical leave chose not to return, the boss was required to advertise the job and conduct interviews. My interview actually turned out to be more like a performance evaluation – the boss talked about how the year had been and what he wanted to have happen in the future. It was more of a conversation than a standard interview with set questions.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I think you actually have a great answer to why you want the job – you’ve been effectively doing it for some time, so you know the work suits you and that you’re able to excel at it. You can talk about aspects that particularly appeal and where you might like to take it next.

      Last year, I interviewed for (and got) a job working for a former boss of mine who actively encouraged me to apply. I had the same sense of “there’s nothing I can tell you about me in this interview that you don’t already know from having worked with me for years,” but in the moment, it worked out fine. Your boss will likely ask you somewhat different questions than what would be asked of an unknown external candidate, so it’ll feel less weird than you’re imagining.

    3. Wubbletelescope*

      I was doing a job before the job description was created. And when the job was officially posted I applied. What i spoke about in the interview was what was currently doing in the role, what parts of the job could be expanded over time, how the information/dats generated by the job could be used by other departments, what training I would like to attend so that I could understand the other departments needs. In my case it was a new job, so I was able to differentiate myself from other candidates with my knowledgeable of the current demands, but also the future growth/additional value the job could provide the company.

      If your job already exists within your company, maybe grab lunch with someone who has held the position.

  99. Anonberry*

    Earlier this week, a colleague, wanting to collect everyone’s birthdates and phone numbers, did so by sending around an open spreadsheet and asking everyone to fill in their data. I was agog. I reached out to this person and suggested that this might make some people uncomfortable, but maybe I should have taken the tack that it was a possible security issue? Am I taking crazy pills?

    2. Curious Cat*

      Hm, I think the answer for this can vary. While personally I have no problem putting my birthday and phone number down, I can absolutely see why some people would not want to. I mean, I’m comfortable with colleagues having my cell, but I wouldn’t ever want members or clients to have it. I think you were fine to reach out and express that you were uncomfortable, it’s a valid opinion to have, after all!

      I’m curious if the colleague responded?

      1. Anonberry*

        The colleague did respond and clarified that filling out the spreadsheet was optional. Thanks for the gut check, guys. Maybe I’m on edge because we did experience some security issues recently.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it depends on what they are using the information for. If it’s to compile a phone tree or whatever, then I wouldn’t have any problem with it.

    4. Reba*

      I have been in quite a few conversations with employees at banks, mortgage lenders, IT CS people, who do not seem to realize that
      A) email is not secure
      B) NO I will not type my PASSWORD to you in this friggin CHAT WINDOW
      C) Seriously folks email is not secure

      1. RedBlueGreenYellow*

        I used to work at a network security company where a member of the accounting team asked me to put all of my banking information (routing number, account number, the whole deal) not only into an email message, but into an email message to a group alias.
        So, as you say:
        A) Email is not secure
        Also,
        B) I actually want to know WHO is getting my private information.

        Again, this was at a SECURITY company. (I wanted to email the request to the company’s internal security policing group, but decided that burning bridges on my way out was a bad idea.)

    5. Overeducated*

      That’s like the time my organization (which sends out email security reminders all. the. time!) had us submit information for an event-related security clearance, including birth dates and social security numbers, through a Google form, then emailed us our responses in plain text for confirmation. Sigh.

  100. emoji pizza unicorn*

    Domain specific question, y’all.

    I’m a software engineer. Interviewing for a full stack web developer role, I was asked a computational geometry question over the phone. FFS, this is so irrelevant. I’m down to solve data structures and algorithm problems and other CS fundamentals. Hell, give me a bit twiddling problem, even. But computational geometry, over the phone? I tried to think of the interview as practice, but I really struggled and felt crappy about it afterwards.

    This experience made me realize I’m not interested in working at companies that ask super esoteric / irrelevant questions, or puzzle-style questions. But I’m not sure how to handle this in the future if it comes up again. Is there a polite / professional way to say “The question you just asked me made me not want to work at your company anymore, so let’s stop the interview here and save both of us some time?”

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think before you jump to “Let’s stop the interview here,” you can at least give a warning of “I’m curious as to how this question’s relevant to the job.” If they get defensive, I think you can say “Thank you for taking the time to interview me, but it sounds as if this is not going to be a good fit.”

      Also, leave a Glassdoor interview experience, so others can avoid that place in the future…

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Exactly what I wanted to say, but much more concise! Better interviewers will preface most questions like this with some kind of framing, but I think it’s fair to politely push back on any question that seems really out of left field, whether it’s a ‘trick’ puzzle or thought experiment or just some aspect of the job that you would never expect (because no one else would require that).

    2. dr_silverware*

      I’d say, “wow, I was definitely not prepared for that kind of question–I prepared algorithms, data structures, and fundamentals. If I was tackling this problem at work, I’d do x, y and z.” (Where x, y, and z may be things like…”investigate to see if google has already put out an MIT-licensed package that will do this,” or “look at some papers and textbooks to find the algorithm for solving this problem and implement it,” or “my first crack at this would be a similar structure to how I’d solve Fibonacci,” or something.)

      You’re giving some kind of an answer so it’s not socially jarring, it will–trust me–move the interview along at a fast pace, and you will both mutually decide that you’re not a fit.

      Hard agree on super-esoteric interview questions. If you need to know if someone can write code, have them write code.

    4. Fake old Converse shoes*

      Wow, that was way too complex for a phone interview. ERD, FizzBuzz, pseudocode? Fine. Computational Geometry? Definitely no, even if it’s relevant to the company or the project.
      I guess those kind of questions are popular among those who want to look “cool” like Google or Amazon.

  101. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    I’d love to hear some different takes on this – resume question involving voluteer work.

    I do some volunteer work that I’m incredibly proud of. It requires certain training, and while not directly related to my career/industry I really want to include it on my resume as I think it speaks to certain personality traits/skills that would be valuable to my job (desired jobs). I’ll explain a bit more below.

    The thing I’m not so sure of is: while the cause/type of work is not really controversial (I don’t think), it is rather dark/heavy. I volunteer with an organization that provides support/assistance to surivors of sexual assault and domestic violence. My specific role is accompanying survivors who come into the ER for the duration of their stay. the role is one part emotional support, one part resource (explaining options in detail, coordinating for immediate issues like housing, acting as a liason between the hostpital staff/law enforcement/family members if requested). I like the idea of including it in my resume because I think it does speak to my character (which is actually relevant to my industry – ethics/sensitive business info are HUGE factors) and to my ability to deal with pressure/stress/tricky/confidential situations.

    If this were less emotionally heavy work, but for the same organization I wouldn’t think twice about including it. However, I have occasionally gotten some strange reactions when I speak about this work in my personal life. I don’t go around shouting about it, but if it does come up (like when I say I can’t make something because I have volunteer shift and then person asks what kind of volunteer work) – a few people have reacted oddly. A couple people have become noticeably uncomfortable (I’m assuming because they would be uncomfortable with that sort of situation so they can’t fathom why someone would want to willing involve themself) and one person immediately started asking me what I do when the patient is obviously lying – which obviously did not go over well with me.

    Any thoughts on this? If a resume came across your desk with something similar on it – would you side eye it? My other line of thought is that if anyone does side eye it or toss it in the bin solely because I included this type of info, then it’s bullet dodged, but maybe I’m being a bit too harsh?

    ***Side note – I’m totally aware that I don’t need to tell people why I’m declining invitations. It’s just not something I really think about unless dealing with some who I know has boundary issues.

      1. AnonForThis*

        I would also look at it favorably.

        As a survivor myself, some of the discomfort may be from remembering past events rather than being uncomfortable with the work you do. There’s always wishing that someone like you could have been involved in the process as well. Don’t read into their reactions too much, just be proud of the work you do because people unfortunately need it and it is so appreciated.

        2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          Thanks to both of you! I never thought of that when I noticed the discomfort in personal situations. I never judged/thought less of/assumed anything negative on the partof those who uncomfortable. I was more concerned that I was causing an emotional burden of sorts. I’ll keep this in mind though – to be sure that I’m not adding my self-consciousness to the mix. I’ll just mentally note the discomfort and move on.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Yep. Statistically some of these people will be trauma survivors or be close to those who are. I have, during periods when I’m not doing so well, been known to dissociate when people mention this stuff around me.

            Thank you for doing this. You are awesome.

    2. fposte*

      I think a resume is a completely different situation than a personal discussion; I would be really surprised at anybody considering the nature of this volunteer work as a knock against hiring you. The points you make about its relevance seem convincing to me, too, and I think it’s also something that you might end up drawing on in interviews so it might as well be on the document.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        I was hoping it would be a different situation – I just couldn’t quite articulate to myself why it would be, so I was curious what others here might think.

    3. LizB*

      In my workplace (human services) that kind of volunteering would be a bonus even if you weren’t applying for a direct service position, because it never hurts to have more employees who are compassionate and devoted to the community, even if they’re in the finance office/maintenance team/whatever and not interacting with clients. Thank you for your work!

      1. Overeducated*

        I agree, I think this seems very relevant if your target jobs involve working directly with people or with crisis situations. If it is more general ethical principles you want to illustrate but the context of work would be very different (e.g. the “sensitive information” you’d deal with is more like confidential technical information, not emotionally sensitive), that it might be a toss-up whether it’s the best use of space on your resume.

        1. Overeducated*

          Sorry, just realized I only partially agreed. If your jobs involve direct services or direct service organizations, then yes. If it’s an unrelated job AND an unrelated industry, then just maybe.

    5. All Hail Queen Sally*

      And perhaps some of the discomfort could be that the are instantly thinking that you might be a survivor and suddenly feel awkward about not knowing what to say next.

  102. Talia*

    Grandboss has decided he wants to have one-on-one meetings with everybody to get feedback. I’m not going to tell him I think administration is out of touch and too caught up in meaningless buzzwords and trendiness to actually think about what’s practical (especially since I think he would say that I’m paying too much attention to the concrete and need to think bigger). So this is a useless exercise…

      1. Talia*

        “Approve the things that require your approval in a timely fashion or set up some process by which they don’t require your approval”, but that’s been said to him in the past without success, and I’m not sure how to phrase it politely while still getting across that this is an actual problem. (Example: Teapot Decoration Events are, according to him, a major organizational goal. He suggested I run a Teapot Bedazzling Party. Despite the fact that this was his idea, it took us months to get him to approve it, not because he had questions about the plan, but because he didn’t have time to sit down and look at it– he’d sometimes take a month or more to respond to emails from me about it.)

  103. Saturn*

    I need advice on how to approach a coworker.

    This coworker and I do not work for the same team. We are both females, and she is approximately in her late 40s / early 50s while I am in my late 30s. I have a higher position than her, if that matters.

    A few months ago, she was holding a door open in our office while talking to someone. To avoid interrupting their conversation, I quietly walked through the door. I overheard her saying “You’re welcome” but assumed she was still speaking to the person she was talking to. She proceeded to follow me into my office and yelled “You’re welcome!”

    I quickly realized she was upset with me and stopped by her desk. I asked her what was wrong and she said she had been holding the door for me and I was rude not to thank her. I immedietely appologized but explained that I did not know that she was holding the door for me (in fact, she was holding that door open before I had even turned the corner). She was not satisifed with my responce.

    Things did not get better. I saw her every morning in the kitchen and often said hello (90% of the time), and she would also respond with a hello. She never said hello to me first (I can care less about that). One day I hadn’t said hello to her but said hello to someone else and she walked up to me and said “HELLO” very loudly. I guess she was upset that I had not addressed her that morning.

    Then, a few weeks ago, she was working on an event and had the back door to our office ajar. I think someone closed the door, as it is a fire hazard, and she assumed it was me because she stormed into my office and said “GRINCH” loudly under her breath. I walked up to her and asked what the issue was. She said I had closed the door. I explained that I had not. She apologized.

    Nonetheless these issues are clearly not over. What is the best way to approach her about whatever is going on?

    1. RVA Cat*

      Maybe don’t? It sounds like you’re her BEC for whatever petty reason. Just continue being professional and polite, though I think anyone would excuse you being a bit cold. Her loud awkwardness is her problem, not yours.

      1. Saturn*

        I think the issue is that it’s starting to bother me. I don’t want her busting into my office and insulting me.

        1. Snark*

          “Wow. That was weirdly aggressive.”

          “Yikes. Not sure why you felt the need to do that.”

          “Wow. Is there something you’d like to discuss with me, or….”

        1. Snark*

          Then I think next time it happens, you’re 100% on firm groud with something like, “Wow. If you feel I’ve been rude, you can bring that to my attention because it’s genuinely not m intent, but I’m really not okay with you bursting into my office to aggressively confront me.”

          2. Reba*

            It might also be time for a bigger picture: “You seem to be confronting me fairly often when you feel that I’ve slighted you in some way. I’m not. Let’s reset our working relationship and assume good intent.”

            It sounds like you’re doing well keeping a cool head.

          3. Plague of frogs*

            I think you should poke her with a sharpened stick. Honestly, that would solve 90% of the problems on this site.

            That failing, I *suppose* you could talk it out like Snark suggests.

              1. Student*

                I prefer a Clue-by-Four to the fool-pokin-stick for this kind of problem.

                Short 2 x 4 with a helpful label in permanent marker.

                I like that it rhymes. To each their own, though.

    3. nep*

      Agree just continue being professional — I don’t see that you need to do anything. From the way you’ve described things, sounds like she’s being absolutely ridiculous and childish. Sorry you’ve had to deal with this.

    4. Someone else*

      She’s a jerk. I’d just hang back and avoid her as much as is possible without it being conspicuous that that’s what you’re doing. When you have a business need to interact, be pleasant, but direct and brief. You gave her a reasonable explanation. She choose to still be pissy. There’s no pleasing her.

  104. Echo*

    I may have asked this here before and forgotten about it, so apologies if this is a double, but I have a question about Alison’s frequent advice to speak up “with a group of your coworkers”. If you’ve ever done this, what does it actually entail? Are you sending an email with everyone CCed, saying “Hi Boss, the group of people copied here are concerned about Thing”? Scheduling a meeting with everyone? Going to your boss or HR in private but saying “I spoke with the rest of the team and we all agreed that Thing is a problem”?

    1. fposte*

      I didn’t, but colleagues did; they made an appointment with the grandboss and talked to her together.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        But presumably with a heads-up that there is going to be some meeting with several people involved? Or just show up and ambush the boss/HR by having people pile into the office unannounced?

  105. Anon for pettiness*

    My boss won’t let anyone use the same color ink she does (green) and it infuriates me. I just want to write all over everything in green just because she says I can’t.

    1. Snark*

      No, my friend. You need to level up on the pettiness. Use teal. Just close enogh to annoy, just far enough that you can be be pedantic about it when called out.

      4. Sci Fi IT Girl*

        Just snorted my tea! Ooo, stealing – the secret to professional revenge not pettiness: close enough to annoy, far enough to be pedantic about it when called out.

    2. Work Wardrobe*

      May I suggest you buy, and then ostentatiously flash, a couple Pilot Frixion Erasable gel pens (available in red, black, purple, pink, blue, green and TURQUOISE) and make her ded jealous?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I bought a 20-pack of Pilot G2s in all the colors of the rainbow and then a few, and I have very much enjoyed being the Interesting Pen Maven! I don’t use the really light/bright colors at work, but I’ve gotten generally interested comments from my colleagues on writing in brown, dark teal, dark green, and maroon ink.

        1. Talia*

          I have a fountain pen. It writes in purple because that’s the color ink I buy, but every time I pull it out I get people going “that’s some pen!” (It’s not even a very expensive fountain pen! This was one of the cheaper models, and it’s much cheaper in the long run than buying disposable pens.)

      2. HannahS*

        Every so often, when you’re sure she’s watching, take a longing look at the green one a heave a sigh.

    3. Triumphant Fox*

      Is there a reason she’s doing this? In my last position, we always used different color pens when marking something up to show whose comments were whose – it would have been easier if Boss (whose suggestions are more orders) comments were in a consistent color.

  106. Curious Cat*

    Hi all! Does anyone have thoughts about using quotes from performance reviews or client/colleague feedback (surveys, etc.) as testimonials? I’d like to build a website to supplement my resume and market myself, and I’m considering including select comments I’ve received from others about my work, without necessarily including names.

    I’m not opposed to asking for testimonials or referrals from people, but I figure if I have some good quotes already, can I use them?

    Has anyone done something similar? Are there potential legal or other considerations, even if I don’t identify anyone?

    1. Graciosa*

      I wouldn’t if you’re marketing yourself for a traditional job.

      If you are running your own company and you’re looking for customer testimonials, you could put up positive feedback from customers (with their permission, of course, and sanitized as needed to protect their privacy).

      As a hiring manager, I will note that only a very few – and very weak – candidates have tried to provide performance review material in their interviews. This is not typically part of the hiring process for a typical job, and I would be concerned about someone not knowing that.

      We do have a reference checking process – which includes questions about the candidate’s performance, but still does not include copies of performance reviews – so we ask for the input we want to consider.

      Top candidates succeed by providing a quality resume and cover letter, performing well in the interview, and having solid references. Focus your attention there if you’re looking for how to improve your chances of getting offers.

      Good luck.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      If it’s a client, ask their permission. Partly because it’s nice to check and also in my experience people often add to their comments when you ask this.

  107. Repeat applicant*

    I applied to a job with a company last October. Got to a third round of interviews. I was rejected and given some good feedback why I was not selected. The team who interviewed me said that I seemed more like a “manager who delegates” than a “hands on implementer.” Four months later, I see that there is still an opening at the company for the position I applied for. Would it be worth it to throw my hat back in the ring and apply again? Or perhaps, send a quick note to the hiring manager and see if they would be willing to consider me once again? FWIW, I can be a pretty good hands on implementer and have plenty of examples of work where I did just that.

    2. nep*

      Agree with Elizabeth West. They’ve got your information and interview background — if they were interested enough in you for another shot, they’d contact you. My take, anyway.

    3. MissDissplaced*

      Hmm. I say it’s worth a shot if you have new information or skills you can demonstrate that better qualify you for the role. But you’re really going to have to point that out in your cover letter along with a nod to your previous interviews.
      That being said, I wouldn’t really expect much though.

  108. Bagworm*

    I have a friend who’s worked many years as a nurse and is now looking for roles without direct patient care. She’s interested in possibly doing claims reviews for insurance companies or something similar. Any suggestions on how to break into that or any other advice?

    1. Lady Jaina*

      She should look at getting credentials from AHIMA or the AAPC. Clinical documentation improvement especially is getting a big push, and nurses/doctors are generally preferred.

    2. Red Reader*

      Yesssss. We love ex-clinicians in our clinical documentation improvement processes. One of my fellow team leads (HIM/coding management here) was an RN before she came to coding too.

    3. TerraTenshi*

      Depending on what exactly she’s looking for I can suggest looking into blood banks. There are a lot of roles that don’t involve patient care but range from supervising phlebotomists to creating process documentation.

  109. Survivors Guilt*

    It was recently announced that my company is being “merged” into another company under the same umbrella of our larger corporation. They’re calling it a merge but they are not taking on any of our current employees. However, I have been offered a position and was told that I am the only one being offered a position. They are interviewing others and deciding whether to take some of them on but I’ve been told they likely will only take one or two.

    I feel awful for everyone. It came as quite a shock to everyone and people are now scrambling to figure out their lives. People keep asking what I’m going to do (everyone is asking each other). I have not decided if I am going to take the new position and have not mentioned that it has been offered. It really is just a terrible situation all around.

  110. Me--*alternates between saying "Blargh" and "Brrr"*

    Good golly damn, it’s cold in here. {{{ -_- }}} I’ll be glad when it warms up. I’m a month behind on my utilities and can’t catch up.

    Still applying with no results. A recruiter contacted me through LinkedIn about an asset coordinator job at one of the healthcare systems, and said, “May the Force be with you!” Okay, LOL. I emailed back asking for a job description–no reply. Figures. I don’t know; maybe I did that wrong. Whatever; it’s the Catholic system that refuses to do D&Cs; that sucks. *dismisses*

    If only I could figure out a way to get paid for online current admin/Brexit resisting, LOL. I broke 600 followers on Twitter yesterday; that’s nothing, but hey, I’m more than halfway to 1000. If (when!) I publish, maybe some of them will buy my book. :D

    1. nep*

      When.
      Sending you good job-search vibes. I’d like to send warm temps…
      Thanks for keeping us posted.

  111. Catarina*

    My company has always been very secretive about employees leaving the company (other than retirements–those are celebrated).

    This week it was officially announced that Named Employee was let go for harrassment. As a woman in a male-dominated field, I am feeling cautiously optimistic.

  112. TeacherNerd*

    So, this happened to me earlier this week, and it made me think of all the times parents encouraged their (sometimes young) adult children on how to find jobs, or people who send flowers to the receptionist, or put their pictures on a cake, showing up in person repeatedly, etc. In other words, showing some “gumption.”

    I’m a high school teacher. It’s the last week of the quarter this week. A student showed up with a cake, and on the cake, the following was written: “Please give me an A.” I said no, but I ate the cake anyway. It was tasty!

  113. Delphine*

    I’m decorating my office at work and there’s an art print that I’m not sure it’s okay to display. I like an artist named Teagan White who often draws “dead” things–so a bird surrounded by moss, for example. It doesn’t look graphic or gory, but it can be creepy, and I wanted to see what other people thought before putting it anywhere. Link to the FB post that shows the print I have in my username–the one all the way to the right is mine.

    1. Snark*

      I……personally think that’s a little creepy, yeah. I mean, it’s really well done, and beautiful, but it might get a raised eyebrow or a comment, and I’d weigh if you want that.

      I generally err on the side of office decor that is fairly neutral. If In my case, it’s a bunch of WPA-style vintage National Parks posters.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        +1, I’m just not sure what kind of signal you’d be trying to send with this choice (and why). It seems quite likely to be misunderstood no matter what you’re trying to communicate.

        1. Delphine*

          Hmm, I didn’t think about what I’d be communicating, that’s a good point. I only own two pieces of art, and one is this, so thus far my thought process has only been, “Is this appropriate to put up?”

    2. Lady Jaina*

      The bird drawings are not my taste, but if you hadn’t told me they were dead I never would have guessed. The bird artwork seems a little “grandma” to me.

      1. Snark*

        I don’t think it’s necessary to pass judgement on Delphine’s taste. I just think it’d be prudent to avoid the potential for a “….wait, is that bird supposed to be dead? The white eyes are so creepy” response, you know? Like, I don’t want whatever is in my office to elicit anything more than a “Oh, cool poster, I love Mesa Verde” or whatever – I don’t want it to be a distraction.

        1. Delphine*

          Yes, that’s where I’m at. Honestly, I didn’t realize the bird was dead for a long time either (it was a gift), but I think once you do realize, it becomes jarring. And this is an office of animal lovers (including me), so I wouldn’t want to make it an issue.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I can honestly say you would probably have it up for a month before I realized it was a dead bird. It wouldn’t bother me personally, but it may brand you as the weird one in the office. I’m also generally with Snark on the idea that you should keep your office generic.

      I really, really, really wanted to put up one of the old WWII posters that says “Good work, sister: we never figured you could do a man-size job!” America’s women have met the test!” I work in an engineering and construction firm, and I couldn’t bring myself to do it. It’s one thing to not fit the company mold; it’s another to announce it on your wall. That probably goes for dead bird posters, too.

      1. Max from St. Mary's*

        Every time I see that poster I’m convinced she’s about to punch him for his condescending attitude.

      1. zora*

        I agree on taking it home, but it is a cool print and I hope you can enjoy it at home!

        I had similar thoughts with an embroidery design I’m making for myself, the image of Beyonce holding up two middle fingers. I wish I could have it on my desk and see it every day, but that feels a little too aggressive for my office.

        I’m still working on finding a good place for it at home so I can enjoy it as much as possible.

  114. Rookie Manager*

    I commented a couple of weeks ago about one of my reports with mental illness and how I could support her. She’s now been signed off for a further 6 weeks by her mental health team. It looks less and less likely that she will come back to work.

    Meanwhile my L&D team have booked me on to a training on managing mental health for managers. Hopefully that will help me which ever way this goes.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Are you in the UK? If so, it’s worth knowing that Remploy and Access to Work also have a support scheme for people struggling with their mental health at work. I hope the training is helpful for you!

  115. Discouraged*

    If anyone here is a CPA, I’d love some advice. I’m a second-year employee at a major accounting firm, and one of the obvious things I need to continue at my company is to be a CPA. I have attempted each of the parts of the certification exams, and have failed all of them. I retook them, same thing. Do I give up, or do I keep trying until my company fires me?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Have you done a thoughtful analysis of how and why you failed? (Is that possible – I am not a CPA – maybe you can take practice tests to analyze if you can’t get the raw data itself). To me, this is a matter of degrees. How far off were you, is it a certain area holding you back or is it across the board, is it more test anxiety versus complete inability to grasp the material, etc. The question is, is it a fixable block or not.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Oh! And, did you improve at all between the first and second times? If you were x% better between test one and test two, let’s imagine that’s a constant rate of improvement – how many more times would you have to take it to pass?

        1. Discouraged*

          I didn’t improve much on any of the tests. I’ve never been a good test-taker, but I like my job!

    2. Little Twelvetoes*

      Don’t give up! You can do it! You’ve only tried twice. Some of the best CPAs I know took a few tries to get it. One is now a partner at a major regional firm. Perhaps you can discreetly ask your supervisor about the firm’s norms about how long they will let it go. But maybe they also have some tools you can tap into to help you study for the next attempt.

      That being said, there is also nothing wrong about deciding to drop it. If you are open to other work, you might consider looking for a role in industry or government. There’s great opportunities out there – when they say a CPA is preferred, what they want to know is do you have the basic skills and knowledge, and most perhaps most importantly, do you keep up with that knowledge? The passing of the test is less important for regular accounting and finance jobs.

      1. Little Twelvetoes*

        Side note: I took the test 26 years ago (and 25 years ago as I did not pass all four parts first try) – – I know it has changed a lot in those years, so I’m not sure if my next comments are as relavent:

        Some of the more difficult questions can throw you so off your game – but maybe the next go ’round, the questions will be more up your alley. I remember the guy sitting kitty corner from me at my table (that’s how we used to sit, two to a table) flipped open the Practice 2 test to the last pages (the big questions), slammed his head on the table, and left. I guess he wasn’t prepared for those questions.(Like the one converting accrual basis to cash basis for a government. I wasn’t prepared for it either, but since almost everyone else was in the same boat, I stayed just ahead of the curve. Walking out of the test, I swore I would never work for a government and do that, then 3 years later went to work for a government to do that. I subsequently revamped it to a better process, and have not left that employer because I love it.

        So keep your mind open to the possibilities. :)

    3. Graciosa*

      Are those the only two choices?

      It sounds like you’ve already come to the conclusion that passing them is an impossibility which you can either acknowledge immediately or wait to have your employer notice.

      I don’t have a lot of insight into accounting exams, but this could be an opportunity to rethink your approach to both your career (is this not your thing after all?) and your exam preparation (is there another approach to studying or preparing that might be more successful?).

      I can’t tell if this profession is one you want to embrace or if you just think getting your CPA is the Thing You Do Next. Any thoughts? (Yes, I know you blew your exams, but that happens – is it consistent with how you feel about accounting now that you’re two years in, or a weird anomaly?)

      I wish this was more helpful, but I’m hoping a little more information may get you more useful responses from one of the commentators.

      1. Discouraged*

        I like my job, and I like the people I work with! I just can’t seem to pass these tests, even though I study during all my free time. I don’t have a social life because I’m always studying.

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          This may sound counterintuitive, but are you maybe studying too much and burning out? When I took the test the first time (as mentioned above, a quarter of a century ago), I altogether stopped studying for the Auditing portion. It was the most difficult for me, and it was making me burn out hard on the rest. I concentrated on Practice, Theory, and Law portions exclusively (the sections might be different now?). So when I sat the first time, I passed three parts and blew the Auditing part horrifically. But then when I went for the second time for Auditing, I was so much more relaxed and studying for it was so much easier. And I was so much calmer because I only had the one part to do. I think that made all the difference for me. I don’t even think I studied too hard for Auditing, it was more about the relaxed mental state of mind I was in.

    4. JeanB in NC*

      You need to keep trying or find a job where a CPA is not required. They may not let you continue to try for too many attempts, though, like you said. If you’re not passing any parts, can you get some remedial training somewhere?

    5. no one in particular*

      I’m a successful (at least I think so) CPA who now works for a non-profit. It took me 1-2 tries to pass my exams. I had much success with using the Becker system and making my own flashcards. How do you learn best? Memorization? Examples? Practice tests? Listening to lectures? Becker has options for all of those.

      How regimented have you been in studying? I found I was most successful when I shut off my cable subscription, cancelled all but one social event per week, and ignored all other things until I passed. It was painful but worth it.

      Even if you decide to leave public accounting, there are many opportunities that will open up to you simply because you are a CPA.

      I have a good friend who is a tax director at a major national CPA firm. She has not yet passed the CPA exam (mostly because the firm keeps on making her cancel her exams…yes, over multiple years). They have worked with her on this and haven’t given her the “pass or leave” ultimatum.

    6. Old-lady accountant*

      Do they still have the Gleim books? I’m probably dating myself by mentioning them, but I spent an entire winter by skipping any attempts to socialize and just did practice question after practice question from January – April. Come May, I passed 3 parts and only had to retake 1 part in November.

      Pretty much everyone agrees that the only way to pass the test is study, study, study (and by study i mean doing all the practice questions, reviewing the answers and understanding what you did wrong so you can do better on the actual test)

    7. Friday*

      I’m not a CPA yet but I’ve passed the test. Another71.com was a fantastic resource. It really does boil down to figuring out how you learn best. I figured out that doing as many practice questions as possible was my personal key to success. For others it’s flash cards, taking notes, etc. Best of luck!!

      1. Friday*

        Also, I had some fails before I banged out four wins. Some heartbreaking 74s, and lower scores! It’s common.

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          To really date myself – back in my day, any score that was between 70-74 was reevaluated until the scorers could place it at 75 or 69. I suppose that way, you wouldn’t have to agonize over being just one point shy!

  116. Anon commenter*

    Hello everyone, I have a question. Somewhat recently someone I was working with left for a job with an insurance company. She said it paid a little better, was more convenient (could work from home sometimes??. Does anyone know anything about any types of insurance jobs? I know nothing. Where to look? Positions for entry level, college degree or not, some sales experience. Thank you

    1. Insurance lady*

      I work for a health plan that sells several health insurance products and administers several health plans for the state. The types of jobs that are available in my company are: sales, marketing, administrative (both entry level admin and high level program managers), clinical (usually RNs or Social Workers), IT, customer service, and claims.

    2. Fabulous*

      I worked in life insurance for a couple years doing admin work for an advisor. Most insurance and investment (they are often linked) positions require proper licensing, though if you’re only administrative you can get away with not being licensed.

      There are different types of licencing for health/life/disability, auto, or other types of insurance. For health/life/disability, it is basically just an exam you have to pass with 80% or higher. If you are hired with a company, they will usually pay for fees and such to get licensed.

      From what I’ve gathered, basically anyone can work in the industry, especially if you have a background in sales. It is true that insurance agents can generally set their own hours, etc. but you’re at the whim of your clients as well. Yes, you can work from home, but you could be going out to meet a client at 6pm on a Saturday or 6am on a Monday too.

      As for finding the positions, I’ve found them posted on Monster or CareerBuilder in the past. A lot of them recruit that way. You could also go directly to the company websites and find them that way. You’re more likely to have success being hired as an agent versus admin because they’re always looking for more people; I think the success rate of each new “class” is about 15%. The majority of new agents don’t last beyond a couple years.

  117. alice*

    Lurker here and ex-commenter…

    I moved to Europe about a year and a half ago to work on my masters. I’ve been thinking about it for awhile and have decided that I want to return to the states for at least the summer and do an internship before returning to my masters in the fall, as opposed to doing a placement here. My question is about networking. I’m 100% sure I do not want to stay here after the masters program (for various reasons) and either will return to the states permanently or want to move to another country. Previously I spent a lot of time networking and making contacts in the hope of landing a job here, but that all seems like a waste of time. Do I stop doing that altogether? I’m part of some meetup groups, regularly meeting professionals for coffee, etc and focus on getting an internship back home? Or is it worth still making those contacts here?

    Also, any ideas on networking from out of country? I have a foreign phone number but a local address for my city, and I make it clear in my coverletter that I don’t need relocation assistance and am available to start work immediately because my family lives there. Is there anything else I can do to not make me seem like a hassle hire?

    1. Reba*

      Well, networking is not *only* about getting a job, so I don’t think it’s a waste of time. That said, it makes sense that you’d want to shift the amount of time/effort spent in that direction towards your eventual destination.

      Are there any conferences or big events in your field that will happen during the summer in the US?

    2. TL -*

      It depends on what your masters is in, but some academic communities are quite small – I’m a USA masters student studying in NZ currently doing my internship in Australia planning to go back to the USA in 18 months.

      My professors know people all over Aus/NZ and several of them know a few peeps from the USA as well (though I have contacts from previous jobs that are more useful to my particular career goals but they’re very specific.)

  118. Tina*

    Alison may have answered this in a previous post: so if anyone wants to direct me there, I would greatly appreciate it.

    When your boss knows that you are exploring another job opportunity, but for various reasons you haven’t told him how far you are and you are at a deep enough point that the job opportunity asks for references…and you want to give boss’ info so she can be a reference…can you ask job opportunity to be discreet: not divulging where they are in the process and simply say that they are considering you for the position. Is that too far? Too much? Just Not Done?

    Thank you all :)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think that’s going to work. This isn’t always the case, but in every job search I’ve been involved with (either as a candidate or on the hiring end), reference checking tends to happen toward the end of the search, so the fact they’re even checking it likely to tip off your boss that it’s pretty close to the end. If the boss knows you’re exploring, any special reason she can’t know you’re actually toward the end of the search?

    2. CM*

      No, I don’t think you can be that specific. You can either ask them not to contact your boss until the end of the process, or not to contact your boss at all, but you can’t tell them what to say.

  119. ConfusedAcademic*

    Hello. Today I attended a training on workplace diversity that focused on communication differences between men and women in a really simplistic and deterministic way. Like, boys play “cowboys and Indians” [sorry for the loaded stereotypes in that so-called game] so they become aggressive and want to win, leading them to use aggressive and “war-like” communication styles. Equally stereotypical, negative, and reductionist for women. (And no discussion of LGBT individuals who can straddle/violate/cross these stereotypes.) I want to write a response that puts this sort of conversation in better context, provides more nuance and explanation, and most of all, gives actionable, valuable, effective strategies to bridge communication differences (preferably focused on the workplace). Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks for any help you can provide, you awesome community!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Ugh. That’s gross. I think the best non-essentialist writing I’ve seen on gender differences would be from Deborah Tannen (who focuses a lot of communication styles and patterns).

      1. Weekday Warrior*

        +++ All the pluses to Tannen’s work. Excellent on gender and culture. And much like Alison, she urges that we assume good intent from others unless proven differently. Different communication style doesn’t mean “wrong”. We all think our own is the best style. :) I wish her work was more widely read in these times.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Anyone, not just LGBT individuals can straddle/violate/cross those stereotypes. And as someone who doesn’t fit in those boxes, at question time, I often say something like “so, according to your training, I’m a man (I’m not). What guidance do you have for me?” In other words, I’m willing to tell her the foundational boxes aren’t working, which makes the rest of the training rather precarious.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Definitely, but even for cis, straight, binary folks, those gender boxes can be constraining. Did all cis straight boys really play “cowboys and Indians”? Or like it? (Nope.)

  120. The Original Flavored K*

    One of the doctors at the practice I’m working for is deliberately misgendering one of his trans patients in his notes. Like, there’s an OBVIOUS note at the top of the chart from our practice director stating what the patient’s correct gender is, and in the visit notes (which I have to look through as part of my job duties), he lists the patient as “gender A-to-gender b transsexual” and then CONTINUES to misgender the patient.

    I am queer myself, and openly engaged to be married to another woman. This is not a secret in my office. Even worse, because I work for the clinic and the hospital that the clinic is part of, and because this is such a small town, this doctor also happens to be MY doctor.

    Am I crazy to be freaked out and upset by this? Fellow healthcare folks, is there something I should say or do? Doctors are gonna doctor, and small town old white guys are gonna small town old white guy, but this really bothers me, and would certainly bother the patient if, god forbid, they asked for and received their visit notes as part of their medical record.

    1. Snark*

      Unfortunately, I don’t really think you have the standing or sufficient connection to the situation to address this yourself, though I share your dismay and outrage.

    2. Red Reader*

      Maybe mention it to the practice director? (I work with medical records too, but at a big multi-location hospital system, not a smaller practice.) I’ve never seen any issues of deliberate misgendering, but I did have a doc once write on a form in a patient’s chart that one of my fellow coders was a “dumbass” – by name, like “Josephine from coding is a dumbass and needs this spelled out” – after she requested a diagnosis clarification from the doc. Our physician management team hammered him for it and the form was re-issued so that it didn’t have something so wildly inappropriate in the record if the patient requested it down the line.

      1. The Original Flavored K*

        God, I wish I was back in a big hospital system. I used to work for one that had five hospitals and seventeen clinics, and if this (or the “x coder by name is a dumbass,” dear lord!!) had happened there, there would have been at least three people breathing fire before I even saw this. Even USING REP NAMES in the billing system notes, much less in a patient’s chart, was verboten.

        I’m unsure how to bring this up. Potential script, “Practice director, I noticed something in the patient visit notes that is incorrect and may dismay the patient if they receive them as part of their medical record?” Something like that? Or do I just ask her to look into some discrepancies in the chart??

        1. LizB*

          Since you say the practice director was the one who wrote the note about correct pronouns in the first place, I don’t think you need to be vague about the problem. “I saw your note on Patient’s gender while I was working in their chart, but I also saw that their visit notes consistently used [wrong pronouns] and outdated medical terminology* to refer to them. I’m concerned that this makes their records confusing and inaccurate. Can you take a look?”

          *I think “transsexual” is no longer the accepted medical term, but if I’m wrong on that leave this out.

          1. Anony*

            I would focus on the pronoun usage. Making a note about the tradition (even using outdated terminology) may be medically relevant. There is no excuse to use the wrong pronouns.

          2. Sam Carter*

            I agree with LizB. The practice director is making an effort to be inclusive, which should lend confidence that your comments will be well received. The AAMC (https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/diversity/lgbthealthresources/), AMA (https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/creating-lgbtq-friendly-practice), and Fenway Health (https://www.lgbthealtheducation.org/) have great resources to increase cultural competency and shift your practice towards a more welcoming environment.

            *Transgender or gender nonconforming are typically preferred terms over transsexual.

    3. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      Are you in a large enough practice to have a medical person who may be sympathetic? Medical Director? An ombudsperson you could talk to confidentially about the next step? The reason I am vague is because repercussions are very real and right now the cultural climate is concerning for transgender and others. Consider:

      1. Is it really deliberate? On our computer system, the docs can use shortcuts and sometimes those templates drop in the birth sex automatically from the legal name and sex- the doc would have to redo their templates or the search the entire note for pronouns that are automatically populated and may not even be able to change them easily. I am glad to say our team has been working on changing the electronic record to document sex /orientation/birth/preferred/identity more – and it is an extremely complex process to change something that seems at first straight forward. For diagnoses, docs are often stuck using what their system gives them (the ICD 10). Beyond his notes, is there other behavior that makes you think he is inappropriate regarding trans care, LGBTQ patients and their care?

      2. Changing docs – perhaps to another clinic. It may be worth the drive. For your health, you don’t want a situation where you are not going to ask / disclose important symptoms and concerns to your doc. If you have that “im-not-comfy” feeling, please find another doc!! You do not have to tell him you are leaving if that is more comfortable to you. I personally like to give feedback, and I also understand that you have to make a judgement call on that.

      3. Maybe touch base with the practice director?

    4. The Original Flavored K*

      Touched base with the practice director. She told me that because the patient hasn’t fully transitioned (ie. still listed as gender a to their insurance), that all medical documentation needed to be the patient’s biological sex. Which, okay, fine. I’m not 100% sure, so long as the dx’s are all appropriate, but I’m not about to push back on it.

      If she’d stopped there, I wouldn’t be as !@#$ing livid as I currently am. She went on to explain, to somebody she KNOWS is LGBT, that she can “pretend [she’s] a raccoon” all she likes, but that’s never gonna be in her medical record, and “[she] can’t go see a veterinarian,” and “[she] can call [herself] a unicorn, but…” with, the topper on the cake: the patient can call themselves whatever gender they like, but “they ain’t a [gender b].”

      For fuck’s sake.

  121. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Well, this is amusing. Building guy came by a bit ago and was doing something in the ceiling. Bit of chatter revealed that he was turning the heat on. Yes, on. Apparently, it has been accidentally turned off for “a long time”. Per a coworker, it’s been cold for the past 3 years. Thank goodness the floors above and below us had working heat!

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Two jobs ago I complained persistently about the heat in my office during the summer. The second summer I was there, the facilities team realized that the heat had been on the whole time. So I feel you on this!

  122. Shellesbelles*

    Any advice for how to job search while dealing with a mental health issue?

    I’ve been working in an abusive environment for over a year and a half now and I desperately need out. This supposed “dream job” has reignited a lot of mental health issues that I had mostly under control before I started. Now I’m dealing with serious anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation while trying to job search. I know that Alison says that the only time you should leave without something lined up is if it’s bad for your health, but unfortunately, quitting without anything lined up is just not an option for me financially. I am getting help from a therapist, but I’m at a loss as to what else I can do.

    Some of the issues I have with job searching:
    – I find it hard to string a sentence together due to mental fog, meaning that my materials don’t feel as strong as they could be.
    – Low self-esteem from dealing with this for so long. It makes it difficult to send things out, because I constantly feel like “who would want to hire me anyway?”
    – Mental block around submitting applications.
    – No interviews from anything I’ve managed to send.
    – Bad job doesn’t pay well, so it’s hard get help that requires spending money.

    I’ve posted about specific issues with this place here before (bosses making fun of me, laughing at a stitch popping, not providing me with equipment I need to do my job, bullying/territorial older coworkers) and you all have been so helpful in reassuring me that this is not normal. Thank you all! Now I just need to find a way to escape. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you have a friend or family member who can act as an accountability coach for you?

      Set small goals for yourself like “I am going to submit two applications this week” and share those goals with your coach. At the end of the week, have them check in with you to make sure you did what you set out to do.

    2. Lalla*

      :( Sorry you’re struggling.

      I have bipolar disorder. I once applied for a job (which I was totally unqualified for) whilst manic, forgot about it, then received an appointment for an interview for a job I knew very little about, and couldn’t remember what I’d put in the application. Worse of all, by the time the interview came I was pretty far down the hole of the subsequent depression. I just about managed to get out of bed and dress vaguely professionally, but I was lank-haired, blank-eyed, quiet and distracted and visibly squirming when asked to talk about myself. Needless to say I did NOT get that job!

      So I don’t know your exact situation, but trust me – I know the pain of job-searching with a mental illness. A few tips which I hope will help:

      1) Look after your mental health. Seeing a therapist is good. But (and I speak from a place of relative good health) there are lots of other things you can do for yourself. Most annoyingly, all the things people tell you when you’re ill, which you think sound like empty platitudes or patronising or completely made up, actually work. Without pressuring yourself or allowing any element of guilt when you don’t do what you want to do, try eating more healthily, exercising more, going out in the fresh air and getting daylight on your face, having long baths, spending time with the people you love. These are all things which gradually build up your resilience. Most importantly, learn to treat yourself with the same basic kindness you’d afford to a stranger on the street. Easier said than done, but once you master that, your life will never be the same again.

      2) Another thing that sounds fake but isn’t – feel the fear and do it anyway. Acknowledge your feelings. Neither admit nor deny that they have basis in fact. Accept that that’s how you feel. Then visualise folding the feelings up nice and neatly, placing them in a box, and locking it. The feelings are still there. You can’t just switch them off. But you can train yourself to be able to put them to one side while you get on with other things. The more you do this, the easier it’ll get and the longer you’ll be able to do it at a time. It’s so much easier than feeling the feelings, and feeling guilty about the feelings, and worrying about the feelings stopping you from doing things. Just put them in a box for a bit and give them a rest while you get on with things.

      3) Write your application. Just write it roughly, as it comes out of your head, complete with mistakes and rambling and little notes to yourself. Just get something down. Editing is a lot easier than creating, and so much time can be wasted just procrastinating. Get something down and then work with it. Don’t be coy, don’t be worried that people will think you’re lying. Be honest. If you achieved something, say it. If you have a skill, say it. Don’t think about the person at the other end reading the application. Just think about truth. If you can’t remember your achievements or skills, think about all the positive feedback you’ve ever had. If you have a friend or relative you trust, ask them to give you a few pointers about what kinds of things you should be saying. If they have the time and you don’t find it too horrible, maybe get them to read your application before you send it, and suggest any improvements.

      4) Don’t take it personally if you don’t get an interview. There’s a whole load of jobs out there, and even more applicants. Put the job to the back of your mind and move on to the next one. The next one should be easier because you’ve applied for something else before. Take the old application, adapt it to the new job, and improve it. Then send it. Don’t think about the person who’ll read it, just get it sent.

      5) If you get an interview, prepare. Sometimes I find it easier to pretend to be another person – a better, more confident version of myself. I send her out to deal with the difficult things like interviews. Playing a role helps me seem confident even when I feel like running home and hiding. Think about what kinds of questions they’ll ask. Write out notes on how the best version of you would answer them. Speak your answers out loud. Into a mirror. Don’t script them, but do think about them and plan them and practice saying them. If you ask me right now what’s my greatest strength, I’d blush and shrug and leave the room. But if you ask me in an interview, I’ve spent the preceding week looking myself in the eye in the mirror and answering that question eloquently, so I can cobble together a decent answer for you. There’s no such thing as over-preparing. Speak the answers to yourself until they don’t embarrass you any more.

      Good luck!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This is one of the most brilliantly wise and helpful comments I have ever read on this topic. Thank you for sharing!

      2. nep*

        Wow, Lalla. Thanks. And well done.

        Shellesbelles — I couldn’t possibly come up with any advice better than what Lalla has presented. I’d just say I wish you all the best, we’re here for you to the extent we can help, and you will pull this off. Look forward to hearing how things go.

  123. LatinaAnon*

    Ok so I’ll try to make this as short as possible – which is still really long, but bear with me. I am sorry for the length in advance.

    I’m a teapot support representative, and I’ve been working for a year and a half in an American company, in one of their South American branches. I live in a country that’s been going through a really heavy financial and political crisis, and as a consequence of that my office hasn’t been doing so well – we haven’t been able to sell any teapots in a while, and that paired with other, even more serious factors, means my office is in risk of being closed down soon (sometime this year, most likely).

    When I was hired, my boss sent me to the US with my coworker to be trained. I met countless incredible people during that trip, and although I’d never considered moving to the US, I knew I wanted to work for my company in that office. I went back a few months later to get further training, and while there expressed my interest in working at that office to all my coworkers, who were really excited and felt that the idea was more than feasible, since I now had a full-year in the company, meaning I knew their teapots and teapots accessories really well, and had some key skills that they needed on their teapot support team. I was then briefly introduced to a support manager, and when I came back home I spoke about it with my boss, who was fully supportive of the idea and told me he was willing to help me however he could.

    The support manager I’d spoken to originally was then let go (company’s going through a big merge), but they promoted another manager, “Julia”, to be senior manager of the support team. I sent her a few messages (my company uses a corporate chat app the most for internal conversations between offices, using e-mails only for things that are more formal) explaining that I was interested in working at the US office with the support team, that I had some key skills that I was made aware they needed, and asked if she could help me with the transfer process. She was super pleasant, said of course, they had some positions that they were looking to fill up ASAP, and asked if I was willing to move. I said yes, and she told me to send her my resume via e-mail and she’d talk to HR about where to go from there.

    This is where things start to get complicated.

    After not hearing from Julia for fourteen days in a row, I sent her a message, but she didn’t reply; since she’d just become a senior manager and was most likely very busy I didn’t insist. I tried again a week after that, and this time Julia replied, apologizing for not getting back to me the previous week and explaining that she was still waiting for HR to respond. Two weeks later I messaged her again, asking if she’d heard back from HR, and she said they’d failed to get back to her once again but she would talk to them that same day and get back to me as soon as possible. I thanked her, and since that was my third follow up message since my first approach, I decided not to message Julia again.

    While waiting, I contacted a colleague that works as a manager under Julia, “Fergus”. I asked Fergus if he thought it’d be appropriate to contact Julia again, because it had been one and a half months since I last heard from her and waiting was driving me up the walls, and he said he’d go and talk to her right then and there. Her reply? She forgot! HR never got back to Julia, and she forgot about me. She apologized (through Fergus, not directly) and asked me to send her an e-mail with the technical documents about international transfers that I downloaded from the company’s intranet. Fergus recommended that also I put in the e-mail a brief explanation as to why I’d be a good fit for their team, as he thought that would help me out, and when he informed Julia I’d be sending her that e-mail he also passed along a very nice recommendation of me.

    I sent Julia the e-mail, optimistic that NOW she would give me some sort of reply, but again, nothing. By that time it was mid-December (I talked to that first manager in July btw), and so I decided to wait until after the holidays. So I waited. I sent her a simple “happy new year!” message on January 2nd, and another one this last Tuesday, asking if she got my last e-mail and if there’s anything I can do to help with the process. Both messages were left unanswered.

    This process has worn me down emotionally, and I don’t know what my next step should be. My boss thinks I should talk to someone else, since Julia’s been no help so far, but I worry that that she’ll see this as going over her, thus creating tension between us. Fergus agrees that this might not be a good idea, so I didn’t approach anyone else about it. but doing nothing and waiting even more worries me, because last time I did that she just… forgot. The longer Julia drags this process along, the more likely it is that they’ll fill the vacancies they have in their team –if they haven’t already – and the closer I am to losing my job with the company, which would then make this transfer impossible. I’ve thought about contacting the recruiter they have in the US office, but again, not sure if Julia would appreciate me going after someone else when I was originally talking about this with her, and I already asked my boss if he could maybe do something to help me out, but he believes that all he can do is give a recommendation letter when it comes to the point that they need it.

    What do you guys suggest I do? I’ve thought about moving on and letting this whole idea go, but not only has this been the best and most realistic opportunity I’ve had to move out of my country, this transfer would also mean a HUGE improvement in my quality of life, which is really bad right now – I’d have a 30 minutes daily commute instead of my current 5 hours (yes I’m serious), I’d be able to afford to rent my own apartment and move out of my parent’s house, I could help my family financially, I could finally learn how to drive and buy a car, amongst many, many other great things. I’m just really upset and tired and not sure what to do at this point.

    Any suggestions are more than welcome.

    1. Murphy*

      Is there anyone at the office in the US that you could speak to? Can you speak to HR directly? I do think you need to go around her, because it doesn’t look like she’s ever going to get anything done on her own. This sounds like too good of a change for you to let it go. Good luck!

      1. Graciosa*

        Oooooh, I wouldn’t do that.

        You’re suggesting that she go to HR – or go around “Julia” – because Julia isn’t moving fast enough to suit LatinaAnon. If I were Julia, that would not go over well.

        I think LatinaAnon has already been far too aggressive in contacting Julia. I understand that LatinaAnon really, really, really wants this job – but that has nothing to do with how she should *behave* if she wants the job.

        As a hiring manager, I am doing a lot more than just focusing on an open search. My priorities are not LatinaAnon’s priorities, but mine win. If LatinaAnon looks like she expects me – her prospective boss – to rearrange my priorities to suit her, I don’t want her on my team.

        And guess what – I don’t have to hire her! It’s my decision.

        It is not a good strategy to annoy the decision maker you’re trying to lobby for support.

        Stop calling. Stop emailing. When Julia turns her attention to filling this slot, LatinaAnon wants her to go find the email from that great candidate she saw earlier. She does not want Julia to mentally categorize her as a candidate with no respect for boundaries, no understanding of what her manager does (other than respond to employees immediately!), and no chance of being anything other than a very high maintenance pain in the neck.

        1. Murphy*

          I think I misread and thought that Julia was LatinaAnon’s current manager, not the hiring manager.

          Julia certainly does not have to hire LatinaAnon, but ghosting them is still a jerk thing to do.

    2. Sualah*

      Apologies if I’ve misread something, but have you officially applied to any of the jobs/vacancies yet? Of course, your company may do it differently, but in mine, even if a person is practically a shoo-in and the job has been designed for them, they still have to apply and go through that process. So that would be the next step. Don’t depend on Julia to initiate the transfer, look for the job opening and apply to it.

      1. LatinaAnon*

        I actually did that! What Julia is supposed to be looking into at the moment is wether the company will be able to bring me in, since that will mean paying for my visa and my moving – the company itself has guidelines where they state they do cover such expenses, but in the end it’s up to the department that wants to hire me wether they can/want to do that investment. She was supposed to see with HR how that process would work, because she wasn’t sure, and while waiting for her to get back to me they actually posted one of the vacancies they have on the intranet, so I went ahead and applied. I haven’t heard anything abou it yet, which is why I’d briefly considered contacting the recruiter. The vacancy shows as still open on the intranet though, so we’ll see.

        Ideally, Julia needs to create a new job opening on the intranet for me to apply to, one that shows all the skills I have and they need, but I felt that applying for the job they already posted wouldn’t hurt me in the end.

        1. PX*

          So my old job was also a big international company and for situations like this, while reaching out to the hiring manager was definitely a good step, I would also absolutely be following up with the recruiter seeing as how you’ve now officially applied. Hopefully they can be the ones to push Julia to do it.

          And given what you’ve mentioned about your current countries situation, I would perhaps make a point of applying to any job in a different country that is open that you’re qualified for (not just the US).

  124. Buffy*

    A weird situation happened to my friend who is hiring new employees.

    An offer was extended and the candidate soon after e-mailed the HR rep to ask if they could come to their house to use the WiFi for school work? They’re going to rescind the offer because it’s rubbing them the wrong way but wondering what you guys all think!

    2. Sled dog mama*

      I would first confirm that the candidate emailed the person they intended to (not totally clear from your post). If it was intentional then yeah totally rescind. If accidental…..maybe.

    3. CatCat*

      Super bizarre. I wonder if the candidate accidentally sent the email to the wrong person! When I type in names in the To: field on an email, it will automatically start populating the field. I’d see if this was just a simple mistake before rescinding a job offer.

    4. Red Reader*

      Wait, what? Joe’s Teapots had Wakeen the HR rep extend an offer of employment (as a teapot painter, say) to Sally, and Sally later emailed Wakeen to ask if Sally could come to Wakeen’s house and use Wakeen’s wifi for Sally’s schoolwork? Am I following that correctly?!

    5. Graciosa*

      Is this a home-based business?

      If so, it might be marginally less weird (the candidate is thinking they are asking whether a work resource – wifi – is also available for limited personal use, while the hiring manager is thinking this person is inviting themselves over to hang out).

      It’s still a major boundary violation that would raise red flags, but possibly not quite as many as if the request went to the hiring manager of a business with an office.

      If it’s a normal business setting (more likely with an HR rep involved), I would not only rescind the offer, I would be using extra care in my security for a while.

    6. Anon Accountant*

      I think they should check if the candidate emailed the wrong person. They may have intended to email “Elizabeth” their friend and never realized they emailed the HR rep Elizabeth instead. I’d hate to see an offer pulled over a possible silly oversight.

    8. Jennifer Thneed*

      The candidate asked if the HR rep could come to the candidate’s house to use their wifi for schoolwork? And someone took offense at that? Rather than just think it’s confusing? But it makes so little sense in terms of job-hunting that it’s actually nonsense.

      Who’s getting rubbed the wrong way? (I do hope it’s not your friend.) This looks like a classic case of someone jumping to a conclusion and taking offense at something rather than looking for a non-offensive reason for that something.

  125. How badly am I overreacting to this?*

    Earlier this week an email went out to everyone at my work site (hospital that is part of a group, person sending used the everyone at site email) from out director of education and organizational development.

    The first two lines of the email were:
    “If you are not interested in losing weight or gaining health, please delete this email.
    Happy New Year. Happy New You!” The email went on to detail how she is trying to get a Weight Watchers at work program started at our facility and how many more individuals needed to commit (pay) for it to happen.
    I found this email deeply offensive since it seems to imply that if you aren’t interested in this program you aren’t interested in your health and someone who is the director of education and organizational development ought to have slightly more sensitivity to how she comes across in what she writes.
    Part of me thinks I’m offended by it because I know from consulting with my doctors that weight watchers would not be a good choice for me and this email felt a little in-your-face. Part of me thinks I’m offended because I don’t think this is an appropriate use of the all facility email (but it’s an ok use within the company culture so I have to just sigh and shake my head on that) especially since we have a weekly newsletter letter that feels like a much more appropriate place for this and the bake sale and other fundraiser reminders we get via the all facility email.
    I haven’t done anything but I really want to email this person back and let her know how her email came across. I’m also trying to figure out who to approach with the idea that the newsletter is a better place for this type of info.

    1. How badly am I overreacting to this?*

      And as i was typing I get another email on this reminding everyone and including the pricing and current promotions.

      And it should be said that the first line of that first email was in bold red letters, which may have also contributed to my reaction.

    2. Murphy*

      That sounds like those popups you get on websites to sign up for their mailing list/donate/ turn off your adblocker. Your choices are “DO THE THING” or “NOPE! I’M A HORRIBLE PERSON.”

      Phrasing isn’t great, but I’d let it go. WW in the workplace is really convenient for a lot of people. They shouldn’t bombard you with emails though.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You are not overreacting at all. This is an incredibly insensitive and tone deaf email.

      If this person is not in HR, I think you should absolutely forward the email to HR and say “given that people have different health needs, I find the additional commentary inappropriate. please ask Delores to stop using the all staff email for this time of communication.”

    4. CM*

      This is the director of education and organizational development?? I would talk to her (or email her back, if you don’t have access to her in person) and say that people have all sorts of issues regarding weight, health, and eating habits. Explain that her email contains an implied judgment that you need Weight Watchers to be healthy, when it’s not a good choice for everybody — for instance, if somebody is struggling with an eating disorder, these types of emails would be difficult to handle. Can you tell her that this belongs in a newsletter, not email?

    5. Little Twelvetoes*

      I also think the phrasing is bad, but I would try to look at it more as trying not to waste your time with unwanted email. It feels nicer to assume the best and just move on. Be immune to the extra drama. :D

    6. LizB*

      I don’t think you’re overreacting at all — those first two lines are ignorant and obnoxious, and the whole initiative seems misguided. If it were me, though, I don’t know that I’d say anything. For me, it’s not worth my energy to try and convince people who are so wholeheartedly on the bandwagon of one specific dieting practice that they should be more thoughtful in how they talk about health and weight — it’s so often an infuriating and unsuccessful ordeal. I would vent about it on AAM/to my friends/partner and then delete the email (and maybe set up an email rule that anything with “Weight Watchers” or “Happy New You” in it gets sent directly to the trash).

      Your goal of redirecting these kinds of notices into the newsletter, though, I think is totally doable and worthwhile! Maybe the person who puts the newsletter together would be the right person to approach?

    7. stitchinthyme*

      It’s really the same sort of emotional manipulation I see on the ‘net All. The. Time. For example, I’ll be on a magazine website and it’ll pop up a box asking me to enter my email address, and the alternative will be something like, “No thanks, I’m not interested in great savings!” Or someone will post a Facebook meme that says something like, “If you care about crippled puppies, you will share this. 99% of my friends won’t share because they’re mean people who don’t care about crippled puppies!” And every time I see something like this, it has the opposite of its intended effect: even if I *might* have possibly been interested in clicking or sharing or whatever, I absolutely won’t if it has language like this.

      It’s all BS. I say just ignore it. This sort of thing is becoming so ubiquitous that it’s just silly.

    8. HannahS*

      Maybe something like,
      “Hi Jean,
      Thanks for letting us know about the WW initiative. I’m writing to let you know that I was not happy with the way the information was presented. As with every other health issue, what works for one person–or even most people–is not appropriate for everyone. Implying to the entire staff that not participating in WW is being “not interested in losing weight and gaining health” is an inappropriate message, and particularly inappropriate within a hospital. In the future, I’d appreciate if information about health-related programs could be listed in the “upcoming events” section of the newsletter without pressure and without repeated follow-up.”

    9. Jennifer Thneed*

      Does your company have guidelines about use of company-wide email? Even a director of education might be bound by those, if so. (At some places even internal communications have to be approved by marketing, for instance. Did the director use a WW logo in the email?)

      1. Sled dog mama*

        She did indeed use a WW logo and the very same information as her email is now in our weekly newsletter

  126. Devalued paycheck*

    I live in a state that has implemented mandatory pay increases for minimum wage employees. These wages increase each year until they reach the maximum of minimum wage – $15/hr. While I’m pleased with what this does for those working minimum wage, and especially the student employees I manage, I’m not so happy to what it does to the valuation of my pay.
    For context, I left a rather high paying position for much lower pay at a university. This job allows me to eliminate my commute, I’m closer to home and can walk my dog during my lunch hour, and it significantly reduced my stress level which was at an all time high. Overall, I’m pretty happy.
    However, as the students’ wages increase, mine are not. Students are considered inexperienced and unskilled employees as most have zero to little work experience upon entering college. There was a significant difference in our wages when I started and when the wages I earned were based on years of experience, degree, etc. The (hopefully) unintended impact of these wage increases has resulted in devaluing my income as theirs creeps closer to mine, making my wages far closer to minimum wage, whereas before I was significantly higher than minimum wage.
    How would others approach this conversation with HR and I’d assume our division vice-president?

    1. alice*

      I think this depends on the average salary for your work/area, whether you are asking for a raise based on cost of living or merit, and how others in your field are approaching this. I know it can feel like your wage is being devalued, but is it just a feeling or is your work actually being devalued? If it’s the latter, that’s a legit issue you can bring up. Asking for a raise because of cost of living or merit is also valid. However, just discussing that you feel less valued without basing it on anything concrete will come across as complainy I think.

      1. Devalued paycheck*

        I don’t feel that I am valued less nor that my work is valued less. I feel that economically my income has been devalued as I was previously being paid, let’s just say 50% more than unskilled employees. As the minimum wage increases and my wages do not increase, aside from the annual 2% pay increase across the board (whereas students will eventually see their wage increase by almost double – think going from $9/hr to $15/hr, while I receive about a 2% increase on the whole, which with a low salary can be maybe 50 cents an hour). As I said, my salary used to be significantly higher than minimum wage and within a year, I will be only a couple of dollars above minimum wage. I work in an area that is doing incredibly well economically, wages are rising, business is booming, and housing costs are going up (think Seattle and surrounding area, I believe we are the #3 housing market in the country currently.) Additionally, we do not receive merit increases, only cost of living, which as I mentioned equals out to about 2.5% max.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          If your pay is sufficient for your needs and remains comparable with the pay of others in your same position, I’m not sure you have much grounds to speak up. “My wage is now worth less to me because other people are now closer to me!” comes across as very… hm. Like you’re treating your pay as points in a competition, rather than compensation for the value of your work.

          1. Devalued paycheck*

            I’m feeling like perhaps the point is being missed. When I was hired, I was earning significantly more than minimum wage. Despite taking a pay cut here, the job was valued at X amount due to the experience and education they required to fill the position. As minimum wage creeps up, unskilled and inexperienced persons now make just a couple dollars an hour less than me and I am just points above minimum wage.
            I’m not a petty person, I’m not a competitive person, so no, assuming that I’m treating my pay as point in a competition is way off base. Would you be ok if you were once making a decent wage that became near minimum wage after working your whole life to move up the pay scale?

            1. alice*

              Am I correct is assuming you’re upset that students now will end up working far fewer years than you did to get to your current salary? It sounds like that’s what the problem is, and that you’re concerned that you will end up on the same level as students several years your junior. Correct me if I’m wrong.

              If that is the case, then know that experience does not equal salary. Even if you end up making close to the same amount, you will always have more experience and more seniority and will climb the career ladder faster assuming all skills and whatnot are comparable.

              I think you are treating your pay as a point scale. You mention that you are now just points above minimum wage, and that’s not a great way to look at the situation.

              That said, I think you need to be job searching if you’re not eligible for merit pay raises and the maximum you’re allowed in 2.5%. That’s not sustainable, and it’s obviously affecting the way you see how you’re valued as an employee. Finally, out of curiosity, how are other companies in your area handling this? Are they raising everyone’s salaries to “make up for” the raise in minimum wage?

              1. fposte*

                I think she’s just talking about pay compression, which is a pretty common problem at universities. Absence of merit raises isn’t uncommon, and therefore market rate really does creep up on you fast with newer hires, whether it’s because the law required it to or not. It’s possible that the university is already aware and concerned about the problem, but it’s also possible that that translates to taking action only when pressed.

                How much you can press is going to depend on how much leverage you have. I agree with others that you can’t ask for more money just because students’ pay is closer to yours than it used to be, but that kind of pay compression is usually a sign of a disparity with market rate, so I’d check on that; I’d also check to see where you are in the payment band for your position category. If you’ve been there for a while, you’ve got room in the pay band, and they definitely value you, you’ve got some leverage and it’s worth inquiring; if you’ve been there a year and you’re at the top of the payband, not so much, and I wouldn’t.

            2. AnotherAlison*

              Like you, I want the folks at the bottom to earn a living wage, too. My husband earned $25,000 a year at $12/hr in the 1990s, and that wasn’t enough for a family of 3 in a $450 apartment to live on 20 years ago, so I get it. But, I also completely understand your point. Someone who had a full-time minimum wage job (rare) was making $15,000, and let’s say you made $40,000 for skilled work. Now they make $30,000 and you still make $40,000. The financial incentive to do the more challenging skilled job is minimized. Your years of experience are worth only $10k? Probably not!

              That is what I would focus on, that if unskilled is “X” and your job requires level “Y” of knowledge than that is worth __$. I don’t know that it will do much good in a university setting, but they do rebalance people’s wages in my company. (We don’t have the minimum wage issue so much, but we get new grads who are getting a lot more to start than people who hired in during poor market conditions, so the people who have been here several years get an extra raise to catch up. Otherwise, they would be in line with a new grad, which our HR recognizes is not right.)

            3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              I’m not trying to imply that you are being competitive or petty! I apologize for my wording — it could have been much better. I’m talking about the optics of the situation, and how you’re framing your value as an employee when you have the raise discussion with your employer.

              I think you would do better to remove the comparison to minimum wage. Yes, inflation will take its toll over time, but that’s something you attack from the angle of comparison with the market for your skills, talents, and experience. If your university is paying you $X/year, but you could go to Company Y and get paid $2X/year, that’s a much better argument than saying that the value of your labor is based off of minimum wage + added amount. After all, the market value of different jobs tends to run, at best, a loose correlation.

            4. Scubacat*

              Indeed, I’m having a hard time understanding your point. Probably because it wouldn’t trouble me to be paid at a similar level as an inexperienced worker.* It seems you feel that your hard effort/employment status is being undermined. If you’re looking for a pay increase, focusing on your measurable outcomes would be a more effective argument than comparing salary to the minimum wage.

    2. A. Non.*

      Just commiseration here. My company announced they’re increasing the base minimum pay and they’ll review how the changes impact current employees so everyone is still paid fairly.

      No, they won’t. Guaranteed I’m not getting an 11% raise this year.

      It’s an unintended impact, I’m sure, because it sounds so mean to say that you think you should earn more money than someone without experience or a degree. Your pay is sufficient for now, but when inflation catches up, your pay is worth less. If you’re making, say $30/hour, you still presumably have more disposable income than the $15/hour worker, but your pay has still been devalued.

    3. Louise*

      I think if you’re going to advocate for a raise, there has to be a reason that applies to you—if you think you’re being paid below market rate and that col adjustments aren’t enough, that’s a conversation that I think you can have. Otherwise I think this would come across as too similar to “my coworker got a raise, where’s mine?” except even stranger, since it’s not your employers call.

      I also think it’s important to keep in mind that wage isn’t a zero-sum game. Someone else making more does not automatically make the work you do mean any less.

  127. Anon Accountant*

    For those that have moved to a new city/town for better job opportunities- how did you choose your new city?

    Not where you transferred from DC to the NYC branch of your company but where you moved from Seattle to Dallas for example. I’m thinking about saving my money and moving somewhere for a fresh start. Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I will be following this thread, as I am SO SICK of a big city and am dreaming of life in a smaller city in the midwest where I have access to a car and uncrowded grocery stores and reasonable rents. I keep updating a Google doc with cities I would like to consider, and have even started traveling to some of them for weekend trips to get a feel for whether or not I’d really like living there, but I wonder if at some point you just have to find a job you like and take a leap of faith?

      1. Anon Accountant*

        I think so and you have to take a chance of a job working out or not. It can be a difficult decision that can go either way. I k is that’s not helpful but it does require a leap of faith!

    2. GriefBacon*

      My new city chose me a little more than I chose it — I’d applied for jobs in several different cities, and ended up going with the first job I was offered (not necessarily the advice I’d give everyone, but it was absolutely the right move for me).

      But I was pretty strategic about where I was applying. I knew I wanted to be in an actual city but also close to national parks/nature, preferably mountains. I knew I wanted to be somewhere that’s growing, and namely somewhere that has a tech scene (I don’t work in tech, but I like the vibe and opportunities it brings to cities). And I wanted to be in a good craft beer scene. So I ended up with Seattle, Denver, and Salt Lake City as my target list. And I ended up in one of them.

      For me, outside of work opportunities were more important the actual job opportunities, so long as I was in a city that had a generally robust economy. But I also wasn’t bound to any particular industry, as my work exists in all industries. I also paid attention to all the “best places to live for ____” articles online, and tried to look at them with fresh eyes. It turns out Columbus, OH and Minneapolis would have been a great fits for me were I not insistent on mountains, but those are the kinds of places that people tend to discount because they’re not traditionally “sexy” or “exciting” cities.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        That’s so funny because Columbus and Minneapolis are actually the top two contenders for my relocation.

        1. GriefBacon*

          I highly recommend both! Neither was quite the *best* fit at this particular point in my life, but I’m convinced I would have been perfectly happy in either! I have good friends/family in both places who LOVE it.

            1. Natalie*

              If you do pick Minneapolis we have a really robust economy and accountants are in pretty high demand, whether you work in public accounting, in house, whatever! Hopefully shouldn’t be too difficult to find a job.

              I have some very close friends in Columbus, and while the economy is struggling a bit more the cost of living is astronomically low. Like, many people I know live reasonably well with a couple of part time jobs sort of low.

        2. LimeRoos*

          Minneapolis is fantastic. Moved here from Chicago summer of 2014 and haven’t looked back. Well, except to visit family :-)

    3. Cookie Monster*

      I took a leap of faith for my first job after college and it’s not what I thought it’d be. I moved from Nashville to Boston and it’s been more of a culture shock than I expected. However, the public transit is great (compared to Nashville’s non-existent options), and that’s been a big plus for me. I would make a list of things you like about your current location, and things you wish it had. Then apply that to other cities – kind of like the Amazon new office search and those requirements. I.e “I love that X city has great Mexican food and lots of green space, but I wish there was more affordable housing and a good music scene.”

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Ooh this is a great idea.

        I’m also in a small town and curse out lack of public transportation and lack of nightlife. Public transportation here is nonexistent too.

    4. Red Reader*

      When I was 20, I moved from central Michigan to the Seattle area with a big duffel bag, my mom UPS’ed six boxes to me, and I couch-crashed for a month or so with friends before renting a house with a new roommate. I had nothing lined up, but moved to Seattle because I had friends there. I realized that I hated living in Seattle and that it was going to kill me about the time I got engaged to someone who wouldn’t consider living anywhere else. :P

      So when that fellow and I separated, I was working on my [getting out of debt and saving up to move the hell back where I belong] plan within less than 24 hours. I didn’t know yet exactly where I was going, but I knew I wanted it to be somewhere that I knew at least a couple of people, somewhere with a large academic hospital organization (because that’s my career field/work experience), and within a day’s drive of my parents/siblings, because I wanted to be able to visit them easily, but no closer than 2-3 hours, because I didn’t want visits to be surprises.

      My first round of narrowed-down options was Chicago, Nashville, Raleigh/Durham, or Indianapolis, and I ended up in Indy. My family of origin is 3.5 hours straight up an expressway from me – like, literally, three minutes on either end of the 3.5 hour highway drive – I’m in medical administration for the largest health care org in the state, and I live with two of my dearest friends and this dude I married in September that I’ve known for fifteen years.

      1. Red Reader*

        (And now I regularly look around my stuffed-to-the-gills 4bedroom house with a 1/3 acre fenced in yard for my two dogs, for which the mortgage is literally half of what I paid in rent for a 3rd-floor 2br walkup in Seattle, and go JESUS WEPT I MOVED HERE IN A SMART CAR SIX YEARS AGO WHERE DID ALL THIS STUFF COME FROM.)

    5. LimeRoos*

      A few years ago Husband and I relocated from Chicago to Minneapolis. It’s not a huge move in terms of distance, and we did move for his job, but I was currently unemployed. I had quit my previous job about a year earlier, and was unable to find anything in the Chicagoland area. He was told to watch for open positions in January, so I researched a ton before we ended up moving in June/July. It turned out to be the best thing that happened to us. Minneapolis has everything we loved about Chicago (food, beer, art, music, parks) without the millions of people. I had two phone interviews even before moving, had three in person interviews scheduled within two weeks of being here (two were in the first week) and started a decent job within 1.5 months.

      If Minneapolis didn’t have a good job market, decent housing prices & everything we loved about Chicago, we probably wouldn’t have moved. So I’d make a list of what you love about your current city, what you dislike, and what your ideal city would have. Then just google away. Side note, I did use Pinterest a bit – it had a surprising amount of information pinned.

      If you want any info about Minneapolis, let me know. I had to stop myself from gushing about the city/state because I’ve absolutely fallen in love with it.

      1. Natalie*

        Based on this thread + the superbowl discussion upthread it seems like we have a bunch of Twin Cities people. Maybe we should have a meetup…

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I haven’t moved yet, but some of the points I’ve been considering are:

      –What kinds of jobs are there in the area? Is it big enough to sustain growth or have a good variety of employers? I want this in case my job changes like the last one did. I was at the *best* employer here and now there is nowhere to go but down. And are there opportunities for the kind of work I’d like to do?

      –Public transit. Is there any? Is it better than here? If I have a vehicle issue, I’d like to have alternatives for getting to work.

      –Weather. Not too cold or too hot (I’d err on the side of warmer, though).

      –Pedestrian and bike-friendly. Is there pavement in most places? You’d be surprised. The city where I live is not. A lot of streets, even big ones, don’t have sidewalks at all! Many of the bus stops don’t have shelters, either; they’re just a sign on a stick. If you’re lucky, there’s a bench.

      –Rents. When I apply to something out of the area, I look for apartments near the workplace and see if I could afford them on the lowest presumed or listed salary. I have a car so driving isn’t an issue if necessary, but I don’t want a four-hour commute because my office is in Posh Central and I can only afford to live in Bartertown.

      –Activities. What is there to do? Is it primarily family-oriented, or are there things where I wouldn’t be the only solo adult? How many of them are low-cost or free, or are things I like to do–cultural stuff, nerd stuff, museums, etc.? This is one thing I like about London–there’s almost TOO much to do, yasss.

      Clearly I’m leaning toward a larger city. :)

    7. Anon Accountant*

      This is really interesting to me to read how others have chosen other cities and narrowed their choices.

      I’m considering Columbus, Cleveland, Harrisburg but really like Raleigh or Charlotte. Columbus or Harrisburg areas are within 3.5 hours of family and I don’t know anyone in NC but would meet people.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh yeah, that’s another consideration–if you have family you need to be closer to for some reason, a city that’s either within driving distance or one with a good airport.

      2. GriefBacon*

        I grew up in Raleigh/Durham and also lived there for 5 years as an adult. My parents are there, so I still visit once a year or so (though they are also the main reason I no longer live there…). I’m a lot biased, but I think that area is just the best. If you ever need insider thoughts/opinions, I’m happy to help!

      3. Mallows*

        You really need a car in Raleigh, IMO. I do think there is some kind of shuttle that goes from the suburbs to downtown. Traffic sucks because there is endless construction happening on the beltline (so called because it circles the city) and traffic getting to any of the suburbs is also terrible.

    8. TL -*

      I decided I wanted to work at university A in Boston or University B or C in Chicago and maybe California?

      Got the job in Boston, moved up there, it worked out pretty well, all things considered!

  128. Not so open to this*

    Ugh. This week our company invited us to view a pilot project space for an open plan office here. It would look really pretty for a catalog, but working in it would be noisy visually as well as sound wise. To make it even more fun, it’s all hot-desking (so you can pick the best space for the work you are doing!) and thus short on storage and personalization.

    They are describing this as “the new trend”.

    Argh.

    2. LizB*

      That is so frustrating… especially because open offices and hot-desking have been pretty common for several years now, so in no way are either of those things “the new trend.” They are, at best, “the current trend we have newly decided to jump on to save a buck at the expense of employee comfort.” My sympathies.

    3. Triplestep*

      So as many people discovered yesterday, a portion of my job involves designing office spaces. I’m not going to pretend that there aren’t poorly designed open offices … its expensive to do it right, and since many companies go to open office to save on real estate costs, they often ignore the early advice of their desigers and end up with less than stellar arrangements and amenities. On the other hand, some companies don’t short-change their employees and have designed in plenty of meeting spaces, quiet spaces, storage solutions, soft seating, etc.

      My advice to you would be to try to keep an open mind, try to use the space as intended (hopefully you’ll be given guidelines and info on how to get the most out of it) and keep notes on what you would change if you could. After some time has passed, bring up your concerns if you still have them. If you bring them right away, you’ll be seen as inflexible and just complaining because things are different from what you are used to. Some of what seems terrible now might turn out to be an asset. Some of what seems terrible now might turn out to be truly terrible. Waiting to raise your concerns will help you parse out the two, and insure you and your concerns are taken seriously.

      Good luck in your new space!

      1. Not so open to this*

        A large portion of us write software, test software, document software. We are on teams largely split across multiple locations. Much of my work is solo. Much of my collaboration crosses state lines and time zones.

        It’s sleek, it’s pretty, and unless I just camp in an “ad hoc meeting/phone room” with my back to the fishbowl window, it’s going to tank my productivity due to distractions. And I don’t think camping in one of those rooms is a good use of the space as intended.

        I’m glad you do your best with how you design yours, but studies show these aren’t as productive or effective as people want them to be.

        https://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/science-just-proved-that-open-plan-offices-destroy-productivity.html

        http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_ladder/2016/05/open_plan_offices_add_distractions_and_hurt_productivity.html

        http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170105-open-offices-are-damaging-our-memories

        1. Triplestep*

          For as many links as you post that trash open space plans, I can post links about research that found they are the best thing since sliced bread. The truth is probably somewhere in between, and they aren’t great for all work functions. For example, I have designed labs and scientists hate having to sit in open space for their non-lab work.

          If I had been hired by your leadership, I would have encouraged them to spend some of the redesign resources on technology and work policies that allow you to work from home and still collaborate effectively. If they were not open to that, then I would have advocated for quiet rooms with strictly enforced rules. My point is that open plan design is about more than furniture. Most designers get this, and only some decision-makers do. (It is shocking how many companies leave design approval to whatever leader wants the responsibility because they remodeled their house or watch HGTV or something.)

          My advice to you has not changed, though. I think your concerns will be taken more seriously if you try to use the space as intended. *Someone* put *some* thought into it, even if it was not implemented well.

        2. Triplestep*

          I doubt anyone is reading this anymore, but I just got around to reading links, the first of which was written by an editor at Inc who has a chip on his shoulder about open space; He has collected as much negative spin on it as humanly possible, it seems. At the end of his rant, he says “At the very least, give them high-walled cubicles that provide a modicum of privacy.”

          Studies have indicated that being able to see a person affords them more privacy. If someone can see you from – either through glass, or at your seat in a workstation – they can SEE that you are on the phone, or deep in thought, or talking to someone else, etc – and they are far less likely to interrupt you. If they have to walk over to your workstation and peek around a tall panel to see you, they have already interrupted you, and they continue with whatever the wanted to talk to you about from the start.

    4. Nonanon*

      I hate it when companies decide to jump on board with a trend *without* consulting those who would be most affected by the change. It’s just another way of companies setting up their environments/culture so that only those who are willing to fit in and accept it without question are employed there.

      1. Triplestep*

        Company leadership has access to reams of research results and case studies on open plan, flexible work, etc. A lot of the research points to happier more engaged employees after a move to re-designed space – even after initial pushback. (I’ve seen this play out personally.)

        In the face of all that, and with the promise of cost savings, should they base their decision on what Susie in Sales and Bobbie in HR would prefer? I’ve designed spaces with input from end users, but there are always perameters on what they can impact. Most leaders I’ve worked with don’t want the basic design premise questioned (with good reason, IMO) so they don’t open the topic for discussion on any level.

    5. ScullyversusMulder*

      my office converted the entire floor to open floor plan. What used to be a room that had offices on on the 4 external walls for the managers, and cubicles in the center is now all desks, with one wall of ‘meet2’ rooms – smaller than offices, these rooms have phone, table w/4 chairs, and a monitor. Employees can grab one of these rooms for conference calls, small meetings, or personal calls. Camping out in the rooms is forbidden, and they cannot be reserved, so it is a use as you need basis. There are standard meeting rooms on the 1st floor you can book if you have a larger planned meeting. Any office that is moving towards open floor plan should consider including a ‘phone booth’ for employees to make personal calls.

      1. Triplestep*

        “More phone rooms” is my rallying cry as a designer! I protect phone rooms at all costs when the program is getting revisited.

        1. Lore*

          What’s your suggestion for a situation where staffing changes have eaten away at phone rooms, meeting rooms, etc? We’re down to .5 phone rooms and 2 small meeting rooms for 200+ people from 4 phone rooms and 5 meeting rooms, due to new hires. We’re being told to go to the cafeteria or leave the building to make calls or do work that requires larger surfaces than the work stations provide but there’s no place to go for actual privacy or quiet anymore. Any suggestions?

          1. Triplestep*

            I’m so sorry – even the original number of phone rooms and meetings they planned for 200+ people was not nearly enough.

            What your office needs is a culture shift. People who have offices need to start thinking of them as common spaces that can be used for meetings and phone calls when they are not working in them. This is done by instituting a clean desk policy, and insuring that all furniture storage in the office has locks. This way the offices can be left open without fear that sensitive information is accessible by those using the office for meetings or calls. I would use Alison’s approach of getting a group of people together to suggest this, and if you know someone who has an office who would be willing to have it used in this way, see if you can get her to start opening up to you to set an example. She could even post “open hours” on the door so if she’s gone, you know how long you can use it.

            I have had leadership (i.e. people who will get offices in any new plan) trying to get more offices in their design program by pointing to the number of people need to make phone calls as part of their jobs. (Don’t we all?) My go to answers are “Then we’ll need to reduce the number of offices so we can prioritize meeting rooms and phone rooms” and “You, Leader, need to build a culture where offices are not given out like candy, and are seen as something that get shared for meetings and calls.” Some people are really open to this, and those people will be your advocates.

            Good luck!

    6. GriefBacon*

      My last company moved from a weird old terrible building to a brand new one with a mostly open floor plan. A few roles require confidential meetings with clients, so those folks are in offices (with glass walls/doors) around the perimeter and a block in the center that breaks up the floor plan a bit. A lot of people that had private offices in the old building we moved to desks in the open area of the new building, and most were Not. Happy. about it.

      It all turned out perfectly fine (though I’m sure brand new furniture and technology helped a lot). It’s no where near as loud or distracting as we all anticipated it being. Granted, there are a lot of meeting rooms, and people are really good about using those for anything that’s bigger or louder than 2 or 3 people looking over something. About half the staff is in permanent locations — mostly the admin heavy positions — and the other half is hot-desking. There’s also a lot of “third space” that people choose to work in.

      It obviously depends on what type of work you do…but it’s possible it might not end up being as bad as everyone expects? (It also totally could, in which case, much sympathy!)

  129. Arjay*

    Hi all, long time reader first time commenter here :) Today is my last day in a job I’ve been pretty miserable in. I primarily accepted the offer for my new job because I wanted to get out of where I currently am and I’m pretty neutral about the actual role. I don’t particularly enjoy the field I’m working in but I have a plan for my next move (in hopefully 2ish years) which this job will help.

    I have a week off before I start my new role and I’m looking for advice for how to use that week so that I can let go of the negativity from my current role and really reset my mindset so that I go into the new job feeling positive and open minded about the future. I definitely want to do well in this new job and I’m worried that I’m in a really negative place at the moment and I don’t want to bring that into my new workplace.

    1. Kris*

      Congratulations! Two thoughts come to my mind about how to use your week off. One thought is to do whatever you find most mentally relaxing. (For me that would be bumming around the house binge reading mystery novels.) Another thought is to use the time to take care of as many non-work tasks as you can so that you can start your new job without a lot of non-work responsibilities or worries on your mind. Good luck!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Congrats!

      I second Kris’s advice completely. Do whatever works best for you to disconnect and recharge.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Ditto the other advice but if you can squeeze in any doctor appointments, oil changes, etc that will help in the long run. I’d also prep for the coming week with easy to make meals and things so you aren’t worrying about food while adjusting to a new role.

    4. Anono-me*

      Clean your home and if you have one your car also. Lay out your first week’s clothes. Plan your meals. Get a hair cut. Do a practice commute in the morning to make sure you know how long it will take. As Kris and Totes suggested, get as many appointments done as you can, eye exam, tire rotation etc. But on Thursday or Friday get a massage and then spend the rest of the week taking it easy and making sure that you are relaxed and well rested.
      Congratulations.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      When I was in this situation I did lots of laundry and decluttered my house so things felt clean and organised.

  130. Eve*

    I’ve had depression since I was a teen. I’m pretty open about it if it comes up, but I’m not sure I’ve ever made a comment about it at work.

    I’m about to start going to a therapist again weekly so I’m taking an afternoon off a week. When I told my manager he asked if everything is okay and I said yes but would it be weird to mention it’s for therapy if he asks again?

    I don’t mind sharing and we are a small office but would it be oversharing?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can mention it without getting too specific. You could say it’s vaguely something medical or even that it’s therapy but not specifically therapy for depression.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      Personally I like my manager to know in a back-of-the-mind sort of way that I have a mental health diagnosis and am dealing with it. So I’ll make comments (in an appropriate context, of course) about “oh yeah, my therapist said X” or “I’m so glad I’m seeing my therapist tomorrow because I need to talk about Y.” Not all the time of course. Just on occasion.

    3. Quoth the Raven*

      I have always told my manager that I have anxiety and depression and I see a therapist for it. It’s like having any other illness. No one would think you were odd if you had a weekly appointment for a chronic illness and mentioned it in passing. In fact, being open is how I learned my coworker also has anxiety and depression and when her therapist moved, I recommended mine. Now, we see the same doctor and cover for each other to make sure that we can each get our appointments in easily.

  131. GriefBacon*

    What are your go-to questions for interviews where you genuinely don’t have any questions?

    I have an upcoming interview for a job that I previously held (I was long-term temp, the permanent person is now leaving). I was working there up until Thanksgiving, so I haven’t been gone long, and am intimately familiar with the company culture. The outgoing person and I built the department from the ground up, without much direct guidance, so I actually know more about the position and the day-to-day work than the people interviewing me. It seems extremely likely that I will get the job, but I want to approach the process as professionally as possible, because you never know.

    Aside from the “how will success be measured/what does a successful first year look like” question, all my go-to’s just won’t work, because I clearly know the answers. I don’t want to ask questions just for the sake of asking, and I don’t need to ask any to know I want the job…but I don’t want to come across as overly confident or arrogant. Any suggestions of questions to ask?

    1. Murphy*

      I know you haven’t been gone that long, but can you ask if there have been any changes you might not be aware of?

      1. GriefBacon*

        There are actually some changes — my former boss is also leaving (for a major promotion elsewhere) and that might mean some slight changes to the structure of the team. But she’s a VP, so that hiring process will take much longer, and those changes will depend on who’s hired, so no one really has answers about any of that yet.

        Though I suppose I could ask what anticipated changes there might be, at least to make it clear that I’m thinking about the position in the context of the team?

    2. Red Reader*

      Were there any issues that you encountered in the past? “When I was working in this position before, we had trouble with the taps on the dancing llama’s shoes scratching the wood floors. Is that still a problem, or has there been progress on finding a resolution to that issue?”

  132. Gloucesterina*

    I wanted to ask for additional ideas about re-wording question #3 in Alison’s list of 5 great questions to consider asking as an interviewee (that is, the question asking the interviewers how they might distinguish people who were good in the role from people who were exceptional or great). I ran this question by a colleague and she echoed my instinct that in our particular context, asking this question would come off as aggressive and sales-y even though it’s designed to not push those types of buttons.

    One commenter mentioned that this question will work less well for highly structured roles or roles where creativity isn’t front and central, which makes a lot of sense to me; or in situations where the role is newly created and/or if hired one would have no or few peers at the same level. In my context, we are also expected to be sensitive to hierarchy in certain very specific ways, and in most hiring processes interviews are not the only tool used to assess candidates (you might also complete some kind of sample work activity; you would typically be asked to submit multiple documents that might be more than just a cover letter and CV).

    Are there other situations to be aware of when considering question 3 or ways you’d suggest getting the same information in a hyper-non-salesy way?

    1. Overeducated*

      I haven’t had great success asking the question as-is, but I have been able to tailor it using the general idea, and definitely got the “wow, good question” response Alison and others talk about. I’ve asked, “Every [audience/population served] is different, what qualities do you think make someone an exceptionally good [role type] for YOUR [audience/population]?” This worked because it showed I was interested in an aspect of fit that would distinguish their organization from ones providing similar services elsewhere, and I think because it wasn’t as general as the original question, it was concrete and could be answered from their day to day experiences. You could perhaps tailor it to get to that question of dealing with hierarchy by phrasing it in terms of organizational structure or ways of working with others, for example.

    2. Tara*

      Allison has another version of that question that might work, which is “for people who have been in this role [/similar roles] in the past, what really made them stand out?” it doesn’t have as much of a comparison quality to it, so it might feel less competitive.

    3. Ainomiaka*

      I’ve more done it “how do you define exceptional success from the person in this role?” One job didn’t know how to answer, but I kinda took that as a red flag. I’m curious why it wouldn’t be helpful for jobs that don’t use a lot of creativity. For example-a great candidate will thrive on routine and stability, or a great candidate is one that doesn’t let their mind wander if work is routine both seem like reasonable answers to the question for that type of job.

    4. Gloucesterina*

      Thanks for these ideas about the “good vs. great” question!

      Ainomiaka — true, for a highly structured role with mostly routine tasks, it does make sense to demonstrate that that is what you prefer as an interviewee.

      Overeducated – I really like your way of tailoring the question to get at how the position works within the organizational structure or hierarchy. I also just heard from a colleague that asking the interviewer to draw you a quick org chart of the institution can also get at another piece of this. Thanks!

  133. Overeducated*

    New wrinkle in the waiting game! I have been waiting for over 2 months for an offer for a job that’s been held up for bureaucratic reasons. During that time, an even better job in the same office was posted, similar but with more job security and advancement potential, so I applied in case the first one didn’t work out. Well, earlier this week the hiring manager called, we had an impromptu phone interview since I’d interviewed in person previously, and he said I’m his preferred candidate for the better job so he was sending my information to HR. BEST CASE SCENARIO!

    He said this type of job was not subject to the same kind of bureaucratic holdups, so HR should contact me with an offer this week or next…and then he called me the next day to say actually, it was possible the bureaucratic holdups were being expanded to this job category as well, he didn’t have information either way, so I should “do what was best for me.”

    Sigh. This feels so close, and yet so far. Meanwhile, I have an out of town interview in a week and a half that I’m really not prepared for (I have to put together an hour long teaching presentation on an assigned topic from scratch…where will I find the time?!), but it’s not safe to cancel it yet. And husband’s local-ish interview that he got called about a month ago is finally scheduled, but not for another month.

    Sympathy to all of you other job searchers who are stuck in the waiting game, it’s so frustrating!

    1. NoodleMara*

      I’m definitely feeling the waiting game frustrations! I was supposed to hear back today about the hiring decision for a job that would really suit me and what I want. She was so good about updating me about what was going on before the holidays and now radio silence. All I know is that I’m still applying. Just apply more and more and more.

      Best wishes to you!

      1. Overeducated*

        I hope you hear soon! Solidarity!

        The good thing on my end is that the hiring manager has said he does want to offer me the job, I just don’t know if that will be a week away or months, or if the entire search could be canceled by higher powers in the meanwhile. I’ll keep prepping for that other interview, though…you’re right, we have to keep our options open while we wait.

  134. Triplestep*

    Quick question to help a college student (my daughter) with the profile section of her resume and Linkedin: how should she describe herself? In my profile, I call myself a “Planning Professional” which means something in my industry. What should a soon-to-be college grad say? “2018 College Graduate”? “Student”? “Soon-to-be Grad”? Or should she re-write it so no noun is needed? It is written in the third person.

    4. Parse*

      Really depends on the field. For example:
      -Engineering Candidate
      -Computer Science Student
      -English & Journalism

    5. Triplestep*

      Thanks for the responses so far. I thought about “Teapot Studies Student”, but she is also applying to jobs not related to teapots at all. I think I will advise her to use that one when it’s pertinent to the job. Maybe just “student” when it’s not?

    6. AnotherAlison*

      I understand why you might need or want to fill in the blank on LinkedIn, but I have two resumes of people with 30 yrs of experience sitting on my desk, and neither of those even have a profile section. I’m curious what it says on a student resume. Generally, I wouldn’t overthink it. 2018 graduate, student, [discipline] student would all be fine. I think I roll my eyes more if you put something like Aspiring Llama Professional instead of just student.

  135. DrowninginTestosterone*

    This is just a Happy Friday “Squeeee!”
    Finally after working my tail off in a all male workplace I finally got to run one of the machines an spent a whole day being treated normally! It was AWESOMESAUCE!!!! Especially since I did it around most of my regular job without losing a beat. The very best part was more than a few of the older guys said it was ridiculous it hadn’t happened sooner an cheered me on. Nothing FUBARED, the facility didn’t implode, and nothing fell thru the cracks. It’s taken 16 months and a lot of my available patience for them to finally “just get over it”. I was so thrilled I took my machine report an made a copy just in case I ever get discouraged. (suitable for framing)
    Hopefully Monday I can slip right in there an continue since we’re short staffed an I had so much fun just doing the actual work. I know this kind of thing isn’t for everyone but it’s been a long haul getting them over earrings, lipstick, nice clothes for a messy dirty physical job. Another highlight was a couple having to admit things went smoother for them with me “On it” so they weren’t running from one disaster to another.
    Time will tell, but I’m finally optimistic.

    2. PX*

      Congratulations! Hopefully this can help kick them into remembering that women are just as capable as men!

  136. PersistentCat*

    Sooooo, coworker who is head of sales and a vice president of the company is actively campaigning against me & trying to get rid of my flex schedule and quiet working area, which is part of my ada accommodations. What do I do? We don’t have HR, and he’s drawing in the 5 managers, who are not my manager.

    1. PersistentCat*

      (Other folks not my manager don’t know about the ada thing. Also, I work with this guy but don’t report to him)

    2. SoCalHR*

      Your manager, who presumably knows about the ADA accommodation, needs to step in ASAP . Which probably means you need to let your manager know what’s happening so he can talk to the the other 5 managers. best of luck!

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Exactly this. Let your manager know what is going on and ask him to address the issue.

    3. Nonanon*

      Make sure you have everything documented in case you need to contact a lawyer. What are his reasons for getting rid of something for which you were specifically provided accommodations?

      1. PersistentCat*

        I didn’t respond to something as quickly as he wanted, as I was working on a different project & had my email minimized (which I only do when intense concentration is needed).

    4. fposte*

      Have you explicitly pointed out that these are part of your agreed-upon accommodations for an ADA-covered disability? If you haven’t, do so, as well as drawing in your manager.

      1. PersistentCat*

        My manager doesn’t seem to realize how insidious this guy is being; he had the purchasing manager ask me for my schedule, and I gave her my “work hours” without the work from home caveat, as I was obviously working from home (her desk is across from mine). He then started hollering loud enough that my employees heard him about me not being there when I was “supposed to”. I’ve told my manager, but she just told me not to worry about it. It’s the…I don’t even know, something about this is (including the fact that this is the third time trying this with me, and the first time he was going after me and ex-boss, and had ex-boss fired) is triggering hardcore anxiety, meaning MORE remote work hours, due to physical symptoms.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, man, I hate that kind of secondhand thing.

          But: if he’s tried this with you twice before, that means he’s failed every time, right? Seems pretty likely he’ll fail again this time. I might check with the manager to get a little more information than “don’t worry about it”–like I might ask her if VP has been informed that you have a WFH accommodation.

          1. PersistentCat*

            Thanks; I’ll check in with her
            I’ll try to keep the results of the previous attempts in my forethoughts when I go on worry spirals

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          I’m so sorry, this sounds awful. I would tell your manager that you ARE worried and that it is affecting your wellbeing.

  137. CleverGirl*

    To Cut or Not to Cut My Hair: I’m a woman with hair a few inches past my shoulders. I’m thinking about cutting it very short–like pixie short, but my mom thinks that’s not “conservative”. I will hopefully be interviewing for some jobs in the next year. Is super short hair on a girl something that would hurt job prospects? I feel like we’ve moved past that at this point in society, but wanted to check. (I’m in the US.) I also don’t have pierced ears and don’t wear makeup most of the time so I think my mom’s other concern is that people will not be able to clearly identify my gender and maybe judge me for it?

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Why does she think it’s not conservative? Pixie cuts can actually look very clean and nice, and boy you will be AMAZED at how much less time it takes you to get ready in the morning! Now you are making me miss my pixie.

    2. Murphy*

      I have a pixie cut and (at least to my knowledge) it’s never been an issue. It’s becoming more common, so I don’t think it’s anything to worry about.

    3. Cookie Monster*

      I think you’d be fine! I was raised in and went to school in a conservative state, and shorter haircuts for women were abound by the time I left this past year. Also, it’s worth considering that if you do get your haircut and offices have a problem with it for gender-related reasons, is that an environment you want to work in anyways?

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I vote for the chop! I know so many women who look stunning with pixie cuts and their look is often so much more polished than mine, especially on days when the weather (humidity, usually) has made a mess of my shoulder-length hair and I just don’t know what to do with it.

      Unless you are worried about being mis-gendered, don’t assume responsibility for your mother’s fears on that front. Gender is more than makeup and a haircut.

    5. Non-conservative in a conservative job*

      Tough call. I personally think pixie cuts are great and don’t view them as terribly extreme, but it really depends on the opinion of the person who is doing the interviewing. At every job I’ve ever had (all corporate office environments) you would have been totally fine. I work in a conservative industry and have been surprised at how open minded people are. I’m a man with shoulder length hair. I cut it before my first interview to get into the industry. Nowadays I just figure if the company doesn’t like it, I wouldn’t like the company. Of course that’s a lot easier attitude to have one you already have a stable job. So basically, if you want to play it safe wait until you’ve landed your first job. If you really are itching to cut it, then I say go for it and just make sure to come across as professionally as possible in all other facets of the interview.

    7. CM*

      It would never occur to me that a pixie cut would be unprofessional anyplace I’ve ever lived (east and west coast of US). If your area is extremely conservative, and women are expected to always wear makeup, have long hair, and wear skirts, then I guess it would matter.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’m kind of boggled that short hair is suddenly controversial. Are they still moaning that Twiggy cut hers?

    8. Tara*

      I think it’s fine. With your Mom, maybe point out how a lot of older women wear their hair short. I don’t know why, but when older women do it you don’t hear it referred to as a pixie cut.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It’s because long hair is supposedly associated with youth. Also beauty advice says it can drag your face down and make it look droopy, especially if you have a long face.

        I personally look worse in chin-length or short hair. I plan to NEVER cut mine even if I’m ancient. I’ll be an old lady with long hair–deal with it!

    9. Nonanon*

      I cut off my hair to a *long* pixie and I love it. It’s longer in the front than in the back, but it’s definitely short. It’s very clean and professional and so much easier to manage. I’m not sure why your mom thinks it’s not conservative, perhaps she has not seen many pixies and so her only reference are extreme ones? I don’t think a person’s haircut necessarily makes it difficult for others to clearly identify your gender unless you are also dressing in a certain way as camouflage?

    10. Delphine*

      For me, the question would be, do I want to work at a place that won’t give me a job because my hair is too short or they can’t tell if I’m a woman on sight?

    11. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I have no idea why a pixie would be seen as non-conservative, especially considering many older women get pixies (or other super short cuts), and some of the most fashionable older stars have pixies! (Like Dame Judi Dench!)

      I guess the only way in which it would not be conservative is a really unique pixie style – like with a side shave or something. I just got an asymmetrical pixie – very close cropped on one side, longer and a bit side-swept on the other, so I look like a 80s rock star if I really exaggerate the cut (my goal). I have gotten tons of compliments on it at work – way more than what I expected. Even then, if you’re dressed professionally and look polished, I don’t think it’s going to be an issue for most people. There’s always jerks who will judge you for not being their specific version of whatever – but screw those people. So go for the chop!

      P.S. I work at a large state school and had an undercut shave for a while that I dyed crazy colors, and sometimes put into a topknot. I don’t wear makeup. I never got hassled, even when meeting with professors with blue hair.

    12. zora*

      I don’t see how a short cut is “not conservative”. The CEO of my company is a woman with a very short slightly wavy cut and we’re in a creative industry, but still, she’s the CEO of a midwestern company, she seems to have a pretty conservative look in my opinion.

      And as Tara said above, when older women have really short hair, we don’t call it a pixie cut for some weird reason, but lots of older women in business have short hair. I think you should do you.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I’ve always associated super short cuts with “power hair” since I’ve seen so many women in C-level positions with short hair.

        2. Trixie*

          Agreed. I went Pixie about ten years and my coworker (at a financial institution) said it projected confidence and sophistication.

    13. AnotherAlison*

      I had a pixie when I interviewed for my first post-college job almost 20 years ago, and when I interviewed at the company I am with now (13 yrs ago). I’m in the midwest and I work in a boring, conservative field. I don’t see it as a haircut to be concerned about. I’d wear that style now, but I would look like someone’s frumpy mom with a sensible mom haircut instead of a cool girl.

    14. Former Retail Manager*

      Gonna keep it real…..would a pixie cut be flattering on you? Are you in an industry in which your appearance matters to that extent or in which attractive people tend to do better/be hired more frequently or is it more about your skills and what you bring, and thus, you could have a third arm growing out of your back and no one would care? I don’t understand the conservative statement by your mother. I can see it not looking feminine, which may or may not matter depending on many factors.

      Personally, I think you should be able to wear your hair however you like, but if you’re looking for a job and think it may actually hurt your prospects, then maybe get the job and then make the change.

    15. Overeducated*

      I was amazed when I chopped my hair into a pixie at how much easier it was to keep looking consistently polished, actually! It’s growing out while my stylist is on maternity leave and I feel like even with a blow dryer and straightener, it’s hard to keep as consistently good looking. You just have to commit to cuts every 8-10 weeks. So I say do it!

    16. Mephyle*

      I am a mother of working-generation women and I am totally out of touch with hair fashions and how their current styles are perceived. I would not expect them to put any weight on advice I might give them.

  138. Rick The Dev*

    Just anonymously complaining about recruiters.

    I’m looking for a new job and I’m in tech. So I hear from a lot of recruiters. I was talking to one yesterday, and he told me that another guy from his company met me at a conference that I spoke at, and that I seemed really excited about some of the companies he was working with, but then dropped off the map.

    But I know that didn’t happen. The conference he was talking about was only a couple of months ago, and I’d have remembered talking to a recruiter there because pretty much everyone at programming conferences is a programmer. I just don’t get why someone would make that up. It didn’t make me think more highly of the recruiter’s agency or anything like that. It’s such a weird lie.

    1. Tara*

      I treat stuff like this like ghosting in online dating – well, that’s annoying, but oh well. Moving on. (I would remember it if the same company/recruiter tried to contact me again, though, and just not respond.)

    2. Mephyle*

      I’ve met a few, very few, people like that over the years – in both professional and personal spheres. They seem to just lie reflexively – it’s their default mode of operating. They lie even when the truth would paint them in a better light. They lie even when the lie is obvious. To the rest of us there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, but they are apparently locked into that way of doing things and for some reason it doesn’t seem to occur to them that there’s a different way of doing things.

      1. Rick The Dev*

        It’s really weird because I’ve encountered plenty of recruiters who do that.

        For example, they’ll email me saying “I’ve been trying to get in touch with you over the last few days, and I’ve left you a couple of voicemails” when I haven’t gotten any calls from them, ever. I’ve also heard the “we talked a few months ago, and you were really interested in my client, X, but you dropped off the radar. Is everything OK?” when I’ve never received anything from them before, and never heard of X.

        Is it some sort of sales technique to fake urgency? I know these specific guys are just pathological liars, but it’s weird how many pathological liars I’ve met work in tech recruiting.

        FWIW, the other guy (not pathological liar guy, the guy who told me PLG’s story) texted me yesterday to complain about my salary requirements are too high, so I’m ditching his agency. I talk to plenty of other devs and I know what I can get.

  139. Any thoughts?*

    Question for anyone who cares to answer: Today I got my annual raise and it was .1% lower than the agreed upon amount. It’s a trivial dollar amount, but on principle I’m a little annoyed. This year for the first time my employer asked what raise we felt we deserved. My review was first so I was a bit blindsided by this question. I gave it some thought and told him the amount I actually felt was fair and that’s what we agreed to. Some of my coworkers, knowing he would do this, went in and asked for ridiculous raises of double digit percentage points. He ended up agreeing to whatever number the employee proposed. So, I’m already a little disappointed that I had to go first in the reviews and ended up with a smaller amount as a result. Would you address the raise amount, or just let it go?

    1. fposte*

      I would totally address it. Matter-of-factly, in a way that you’d be okay with if it turned out that the error was your math (not sure if you get a statement in dollars or percent).

      “Boss, I think there may have been an error–the raise given in the annual raise document isn’t the amount we agreed on. It’s not different by a lot, but I’m guessing you’d have told me if the agreement couldn’t be honored, so I was surprised. Can we figure out what happened?”

      1. Tara*

        I’d just keep it breezy, like you found an error in any other document. “Oh, by the way, I noticed the raise I got was off a bit from what we agreed. Probably just a calculation error in payroll. Do you know who it’s best to bring this up with?”

        (That said, speaking from my own personal embarrassment, triple check that your math is right, and be prepared for it to be a calculation thing that has to do with benefits.)

        1. Original poster*

          Fortunately we get a notification at the start of the year that has “2017 salary: xxxxx” “2018 salary: xxxxx” and the percent increase. My job is very math intensive so I’m always extra nervous about making a mathematical mistake in these moments.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I’d be much more annoyed by being under-raised because you didn’t ask for more than I would be about the 0.1%, though that’s definitely annoying as well! I don’t suppose you have the type of relationship with your boss where you’d be comfortable going back to him and saying that you were blindsided by the question and in retrospect you should have asked for $xx,xxx?

      1. Original poster*

        Oh, I am more annoyed with that. Definitely. I still wouldn’t have asked for the 10-12% amount some people did, but I wish I could have more carefully thought about what I actually wanted. Unfortunately I have little to no relationship with this boss. He seems to like to keep a barrier from himself and any employee who is more than one level away from him on the corporate totem pole. I’ve thought of using this 0.1% thing as a way of addressing it. “I wanted this amount, we agreed on this amount, you gave me this amount” type of thing. That way he at least knows what I wish I would have said.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          WTH?!? Your boss sucks. Things like this make me appreciate the corporate machine that keeps things fair(ish).

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      How would you approach it if it was an error in your favor? At OldJob, I got double-paid for a holiday once upon a time — not that I wasn’t delighted with free money, but I at least try to be an ethical person (and didn’t want to get bitten in the butt by it later) so I went to my manager and brought it up, along the lines of “Hey, I think someone might have entered this funny, can you check with Payroll?” End result was, it was their mistake, but they told me to keep the money because fixing the error wasn’t worth it for one day’s pay.

    4. New Window*

      If you’re still reading this, I say bring it up. In addition to everything else, small as it is now it will be nice to have that in the math equation next few times the raise question is asked. An extra 10% of that extra $100 (or whatever) becomes $110, 10 more percent of that $121, etc. etc. Maybe not huge sums of money at first, but still better to have.

  140. SebbyGrrl*

    Happy Friday all,

    International travelers, I’m getting ready to be traveling mostly Scotland, a dash of Ireland and maybe a hop to the Netherlands for 6 mos. to 1 year.

    In the US (CA) I have verizon for cell which is the everything plan, calls, texts, data (including mobile hot spot) for about $60 a month.

    I know just using verizon’s ‘international plan’ isn’t the way to go.

    Any advice for how to have same or comparable services that let’s me communicate with home…

    I’ll be using the mobile hotspot or equivalent to work remotely.

    Thanks!

    1. Anon Anon*

      Buy a SIM card while in Scotland, anything on the major networks (3, O2, etc., will work most place in Europe).

    2. Reba*

      Yep, get a local SIM! rates are fine across Europe.

      Alternatively, if you’re open to getting a new phone, my spouse got a Google Pixel with google’s phone service, Project Fi, and used it when we were abroad for four months. He loved it! And he was applying for work back in the US part of the time, so having his US phone number working helped.

    3. Epiphyta*

      Does your current phone support UK mobile operating frequencies?

      Is your current phone unlocked? If not, you might need to pay for an unlock code if you want to take that one with you.

      Check a site like uSwitch for SIM card deals that allow cheap international calls. When DS was studying in Paris, he bought a SIM at a kiosk at the airport.

      1. TL -*

        If OP bought her phone from Verizon, it’s unlocked.

        And I’d google around – you can totally use wi-fi and what’sApp and Facebook to call people but my family isn’t so technologically advanced, so I always find a plan with some international minutes on it.

  141. Teapot Librarian*

    I’m taking a poll. Say, for example, it’s Tuesday, and you ask someone for their availability “next Thursday.” Setting aside that for clarity’s sake, dates should have been used, are you asking about 2 days from now or 9 days from now?

    1. LCL*

      Without asking for dates, could be either but I would assume 9 days from now. If you meant two days from now, you would have said this Thursday.

    3. fposte*

      This is one that never is clear to me. Therefore I’m always the one following up and saying “Did you mean two days from now or next week?”

      1. CM*

        I would assume 9 days from now, but I would also respond, “I’m free next Thursday, the 25th. I’m not free Thursday, the 17th.”

    5. Turboencabulator Engineer*

      If it’s Tuesday and you’re saying “next Thursday”, that in my mind clearly means 9 days from now.

      If it was the previous Friday it would be a lot more ambiguous because you’re crossing a weekend.

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I almost always ask a follow-up for these cases, but my initial assumption would be that you meant 9 days from now.

    7. PJT*

      I went the first half of my life in the “2 days from now camp” after several mix-ups I’ve had to adjust to view that as “9 days from now”… I still disagree with it, but I’m clearly in the minority.

    9. Teapot Librarian*

      Okay, follow up question. I clarified the dates with my employee and asked him for his availability (USING DATES even though that’s not what I’m doing here) on the correct Th-F and following M-F. This is for a meeting with him, me, my boss, and my boss’s sort-of-boss. He knows this. He responds with his availability Th-F and M. I asked him if that meant he wasn’t free at all the following T-F. No, he’s plenty available. Given all this: am I being paranoid to think he’s making this difficult for me on purpose?

      1. LCL*

        I wouldn’t call you paranoid. Some people are just really dim when it comes to schedules, they really can’t ‘see’ beyond the weekend.

      2. Murphy*

        Sounds like a case of “I didn’t read the whole email” which pretty much everyone at my organization is infected with.

      4. Quoth the Raven*

        I think you have to look at this in context. If he’s known to be difficult, maybe? But I’d assume he just didn’t read the whole email. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. Plus, do you really want to go into the meeting already annoyed at him?

    11. Ramona Flowers*

      I’d think you probably meant the one in nine days, but I would have to email back and check while my brain exploded.

      I always misunderstand people who say this Thursday or next weekend. I like actual dates. Dates are good.

    12. nep*

      Same as some others have said — I would think it’s referring to next week’s Thursday, not current week’s Thursday.

    13. copy run start*

      For me, Thursday = Thursday this week, next Thursday = Thursday next week. Though I do try to be very clear when I’m writing or following up by specifying the actual date, because it’s the exact type of thing I sweat. :)

  142. Purple snowdrop*

    I found out yesterday that my job is highly likely to be erased from the structure, along with the other posts at my grade and the grade above me in our unit.

    I have no words for how bad this timing is without making myself identifiable.

    Also, I love my job, so I’m gutted anyway. It’s the best job I’ve ever had.

    1. Future Analyst*

      I’m so sorry. Give yourself the weekend to feel all the bad/sad/frustrated feelings, and resolve to start looking next week. I know it always seems impossible at the beginning, but you CAN find something else, and even if it’s not the same as your current job, you could even find something else you love. But for now, it’s reasonable, and understandable to be gutted. HUGS!!

    2. Overeducated*

      I’m so sorry. What an unwelcome introduction of chaos at what is already a really tough transition point for you.

    4. Purple snowdrop*

      Funnily enough I’ve seen an amazing job already that would be brilliant and that I’ll probably apply for, however it’s highly unlikely I’d be able to accept it if I were successful as the job is right on the very far side of town. Unfortunately most of the jobs I’d be interested in would also be there and moving isn’t currently possible. Aargh!

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m so sorry – this is the last thing you need right now I know. But you can and you will get through this.

  143. Turboencabulator Engineer*

    I have a family member who was recently laid off. The company has a policy of not allowing references, only saying whether or not someone is eligible for rehire (which he is.) This has been his job since college (which was a while ago) and all of his former managers all still work for the company, so because of this he has no professional references directly related to his career field. What’s the best way to handle this? Is it really going to hurt him if he has no references from the one job that actually matters on his resume?

    1. Dovahkiin*

      There’s a difference between calling the company/HR and asking to confirm employment history and an actual reference – which your family member should personally and politely request from their former managers.
      “Hi former manager, would you be willing to be a reference for me? [If yes] Can I put down your cell phone number?”
      It’s fairly normal for companies to be tight-lipped. That’s why your family member should personally ask the people who managed their work.

      1. Turboencabulator Engineer*

        From my understanding, employees at his company are not allowed to give references, period. I’m hearing that’s a lot more common these days.

        2. yup*

          Soo… freaking common and yet every company magically wants references even though they have the same freaking policy!!

          Okay rant over….

          Honestly, as long as they don’t say anything bad about him and that he is eligible for rehire, I think he’s in the clear.

        3. Natalie*

          For what it’s worth, every company I’ve worked for has had this policy, and every manager I’ve ever had has cheerfully ignored it.

  144. HeatherB*

    Has anyone out there ever interviewed in a one way video screening via HireVue (or other one way recorded interview process)? I don’t even like FaceTime. I haven’t interviewed in a long time – almost 13 years. This is with a pharmaceutical company for what it’s worth.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I have! Practice your answers to routine interview questions (why are you interested in this role, strengths/weaknesses/etc.) in front of a mirror first, so it’s not quite so jarring to watch yourself being recorded. Test the lighting and sound ahead of time so that you can find the best spot to record the interview. I used my iPad that had a stand, so the recording was steady, so make sure you test out whatever method you’re going to use to prop up the camera.

      One of the questions that surprised me the most was “type in a cover letter,” which I thought VERY odd for a video interview, and they did not give me nearly enough time to type (I type much slower on an iPad than I would an iPhone or a normal keyboard.) When I did a second HireVue interview, I preemptively copied my cover letter so I could simply paste it into the text box if I was given that same question again.

      Good luck!

    2. Tara*

      I’ve been on both sides of a HireVue experience! I thought it was a bit strange when I had to interview that way, but rolled with it. Take advantage of the practice questions! It’ll help you with nerves and stumbling. Also, if you can practice before hand using something like Photobooth or a recording device, it can help it feel more natural. Pick good lighting, try for a neutral background (like a wall, not your living room), test out how you sound on the recording so you know if they can hear you. Have the camera placed somewhere, don’t hold it. If you don’t have a great space at home, I’ve used conference rooms at the public library before and it worked well. Just get there early to set up and make sure the internet is working/you have your camera positioned like you want.

      Having also been on a hiring committee using them, I will say that one lady just felt that the technology was too much and didn’t even try. We felt like there wasn’t a good faith effort and did not ask her in for an interview, even though her resume had gotten selected for a pre-screen. Be aware of the timer for the questions, but please don’t also feel like you have to fill up the whole time. Once you feel like you’ve answered the question, move on (although do try to speak for at least 60 seconds).

      In both cases I never had to/made others “type in a cover letter,” so that may or may not happen to you. Overall, if you’re not typically comfortable using skype/facetime, I’d try too practice beforehand.

      1. HeatherB*

        Thank you Tara and Not a Real Giraffe for your feedback – it was really helpful. I use FaceTime often and will be using my laptop so hopefully I won’t be too technically challenged. I think I’m just overly critical of myself and how I look on camera. I also want to say that I’m grateful for this community that comes together to help each other. Have a great weekend everyone!

  145. Stranger than fiction*

    Is it ok to expect or suggest professional development for hourly employees that would need to be done after hours? Notice I didnt say require, but if I get the supervisory promotion I’m gunning for, I would like to expect the team to. Let’s just say their skills have become stale. I’m talking about free stuff like books I can lend, free webinars online, etc.

    1. clow*

      eh maybe someone else will disagree, but personally, I do not think its right to expect people to do work related things in their free time. We spend so much of our lives working, and ignoring important things in our personal lives. If its important enough to the company that their skills are more up to date, they should be paid for their time. It is the company that benefits from it after all. Personally I would be pretty angry if I were expected to work 8 hours, followed by my supervisor expecting me to do homework. You didn’t say require, but that is how it would feel to the people below you, and even though you dont require it, you did also say “expect”, which is the same thing really.

    2. Leatherwings*

      No, I don’t think so. Unless it’s a one time very short thing that’s not expected or required, I don’t think it’s fair to expect or even ask your team to do that.

    3. High School Flashbacks*

      I’m inclined to agree with clow – if this is something they should do for work because you think it will fix something then it should be done during work hours – regardless of salaried/exempt

      Plus – I’m not a lawyer but I think you’d run afoul of policies/laws around working off the clock if this is a webinar/book etc. that they’re consuming explicitly for work with no compensation

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Thank you both for your feedback. Guess I’m an odd duck, because I’m always lesrning things to better myself and develop professionally. I figure it pays off in the long run.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Sure, but that’s stuff that you choose, not stuff your boss assigns you (presumably, otherwise your colleagues would be doing it too).

        2. Overeducated*

          I don’t think you’re an odd duck, it’s not unusual to value professional development, the difference is that it’s something you’re doing yourself on a voluntary basis, not something your management is requiring. I spend some of my free time on professional development/educational activities without compensation, but I would react very differently to my boss expecting me to.

        3. High School Flashbacks*

          So – you’re not an odd duck in the regard of learning things to develop professionally – but it’s only ok to do that in your off hours if you choose to. Not being “voluntold” by your manager/supervisor to do it but to actively choose that instead of something else even if the payoff won’t be for years or decades.

          What you’ve described above is not that.

          I take every professional development opportunity I can get my hands on. But the ones I do on my time off are ones I think are interesting and will pay off in the long run. They aren’t to brush up on skills I need now or in the immediate future. Beyond that – not everyone wants to advance out of the role they are in – so it they may consider it a waste to get long run type skills because they know where they want to be.

        4. Penny*

          I think everyone here values professional development. The difference is being required to do so by my boss out of office hours. Nope, never.

        5. Teapot Librarian*

          I think it’s the difference between doing it because you want to, and doing it because your boss is suggesting it.

        6. k.k*

          One thing to remember is that you don’t know what their personal goals and future career plans are. I had a boss always pushing me to do professional development when I worked in “teapot sales”. They naturally were things related to teapots or sales. But I hated teapots and sales, and was only there until I could find a job in my desired filed, so any skills learned there would be only for that job only and of no use to me otherwise. So while you may see these as things that will better than overall and be helpful for their longrun, they may see them as 100% work related and thus something they should be paid for.

        7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          It’s about choice.

          I choose to buy books about the stock market because I like my job and want to be good at it. But I pick the books, I pick when and where I read them, and I pick whether or not I want to do so. If my boss says “Hey, Boochie, I’d like you to read How To Be Really Rich by Tony Stark, ideally before the end of the month,” then he’s the one choosing the book, choosing when it should be read by, and choosing that I should be doing any reading at all. If you ask your employees to do it, let them do it on the clock.

        8. Ramona Flowers*

          I think that if you are newly their manager and this is your approach it won’t help you build rapport. Don’t be a walking TED Talk!

    4. Leatherwings*

      No, I don’t think so. It’s not really fair to dictate how someone spends their time if they’re not getting paid, and these sorts of webinars and trainings DO take time.

      For what it’s worth, expecting someone to do something and requiring them to do it is virtually the same from a manager’s standpoint. You can’t do it, and I don’t even think it’s fair to make it truly voluntary.

    5. Murphy*

      As an employee there would be zero chance that I would do that for free.

      At my old job there was a video they wanted us to watch, which would have been impossible to do while working our normal shifts, so they told us to do it at home. I never watched it.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I am pushing for a bonus of sorts for employees to do this, and also have training sessions during work hours. However, it occurred to me everyone should just want to get better and improve their skills and not just become complacent, which unfortunately is an epidemic here. Again, guess not everyone views it like I do.

            1. Penny*

              Then if you get the job, plan to engage your employees in meaningful training and development. That’s what a good leader does. Don’t expect them to read a book in their off hours and turn into better employees.

        2. Leatherwings*

          People get complacent en masse when they’re not invested in the work or the company, which is nearly always on the manager or company.

          Being told they have to or should do work outside of work hours for no dollars will only increase feelings of resentment and complacency.

          If there are specific skills your employees need to improve upon, set aside time for them to do trainings at work. But if it’s improving morale/culture you want, you’ll need to dig deeper.

          1. Stranger than fiction*

            Gotcha. So if the spiff/bonus isn’t approved, I would just need to allow an hour during the day to do these sorts of things.

        3. Murphy*

          It depends. Some people just want to work, get paid, and go home. They certainly shouldn’t be lazy, and they should do a good job while they’re there, but they shouldn’t be required to do anything more.

          You can also look at it as investing in your employees. At my current job I’ve been able to attend workshops/trainings/etc. during the work day and I’m grateful for the opportunity to do so.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          You can suggest books, webinars, etc. but you can’t require them to read/do it on their own time. If they’re hourly, you will likely have to pay them for that time. If it’s over 40 hours a week, that would be overtime. A bonus may not satisfy the legal requirements for that.

          Also, you can’t assume everybody wants to improve the same skills. As k.k. said upthread, some of them may have plans to move in a different direction, and their outside hours may be devoted to that. When I was going to school while working 40 hours a week, I could barely manage to sleep and study, let alone do any kind of off-the-clock training. I would have been really unhappy with a boss who expected that from me. I deliberately stayed hourly so I could clock out and go do my schoolwork and not stay late or do anything outside my shift.

        6. Ramona Flowers*

          Also re this: “However, it occurred to me everyone should just want to get better and improve their skills and not just become complacent, which unfortunately is an epidemic here. Again, guess not everyone views it like I do.”

          This just isn’t how to approach management.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Sorry, that was needlessly abrupt. Bad day.

            I think the issue for me here is that you’re mixing up a few things together into one thing:
            – caring about improving and developing your skills and being motivated to learn
            – wanting to work for free on your off hours

            I want to get better and improve my skills but I’m not going to work for free – if it’s assigned by my manager I’m doing it on work time.

            I think I’m also surprised that you aren’t drawing a connection between
            – not getting paid for time spent on training
            – not wanting to spend time on training

            I am hugely invested in improving and developing but I also have access to books and journals, an e-learning platform, in-house courses and a budget for external ones. I feel supported and motivated to improve and learn. I would be trying to help facilitate your staff feeling like that, not mandating unpaid overtime.

    6. Overeducated*

      I don’t think it’s fair to expect people to complete work-related activities during time they are not being paid for, no. Suggesting is one thing if they are completely free to turn down the “offer” and it will not impact your view of them. Expecting is different, if you’re going to expect then they should be given time on the clock.

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      No, I don’t think so.

      The thing about being the boss is that folks are never going to be sure whether you’re suggestions are genuine suggestions of content that folks might be interested in or requests/demands/requirements in disguise.

      In your case, it actually sounds like the latter. You think their skills are stale, and you want their skills to be better. You would, presumably, reward (with raises, better projects, praise, higher performance ratings, etc.) folks whose skills evolve as a result of the professional development you suggested.

      Better would be to use your supervisory role to help carve out space in your days or weeks time for professional development on work hours.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        “The thing about being the boss is that folks are never going to be sure whether you’re suggestions are genuine suggestions of content that folks might be interested in or requests/demands/requirements in disguise.”

        YES.

    8. LCL*

      It wouldn’t fly here. And we are a union environment so we could refuse this kind of assignment outside of our regular hours without punishment. Why not spend once a week in the morning giving a talk or letting them read the books or whatever?

    9. Fabulous*

      I can see maybe offering a library of books for them to read, but webinars would probably be overstepping. Why not have them set aside an hour during working hours to do these things? After getting approval to do so during slow times, of course.

    10. CG*

      In addition to what others have pointed out, you may also run into legal complications by asking your hourly staff to perform work related tasks outside of recorded working hours. Bottom line: it’s awesome that you’re already thinking about how to bring the team’s skills to where they need to be to do the job, and that’s a normal part of managing, just as paying wages for training hours to make that happen is a normal business expense.

    11. TerraTenshi*

      I think the closest you can come is suggesting that an employee work on certain skills if they’re either 1) not performing as expected in that area or 2) express interest in additional responsibilities/promotion that would require it. In this case you can phrase it as “I can suggest some resources to help with this”, but you also have to be willing to accept if they do something else (or don’t do anything at all provided their work meets the standard).

  146. Compact*

    I have a new co-worker whom I get to train. After two weeks, we finally have most of their system access resolved. In the meantime, I’ve been having them shadow me, and I’ve walked through and demonstrated everything I can. Next week I can start evaluating their ability.

    However, this person is pinging all of my bullshit detectors. Nothing work related so far, but they are the Mary Sue star of their own life. And while I can accept any one of their stories as plausible, the net weight of them, not so much.

    I have mentioned this to our manager (who also interviewed and hired them), and she has noticed this tendancy, too. They also seem to rely a lot on gentle self-depricating charm and disarming chuckles. I’m hoping they are up to the tasks after hands on training, but I’ve had mixed luck at best in the past with this type of charisma.

    As long as their work is acceptable, I’m just going to roll with it, but I’m not sure how much tolerance I should allow in the work. I’m very good at what I do, but I can get impatient if I think someone is slacking or trying to leverage my capacity to do good work to cover for their faults.

    1. Tara*

      Hard to say just from your comment, but it could be nerves. I think I act a lot more stiff/”hello I’m going to be accommodating/good at this job, please accept me” in the first month or so of a job. When you don’t know where everything is, people sometimes try to appear impressive in other parts of the job. But, without experiencing this person, hard to say what’s actually happening.

  147. Argh!*

    How do you respond to patronizing attitudes at work? BigBoss & 2ndLevels & some 3rdLevels can be extremely patronizing to grown adults where I work. BigBoss picks these same people to be on every committee, so there’s a real class difference even though most of the rest of us have the same level of education & experience. We bottom-feeders are getting fed up. Every single person in my department is looking for another job. Someone that Ms. PrincessFavorite “protected” from being “overburdened” with something interesting and different for a couple of months is a colleague whose judgment I trust and I know is really intelligent. I don’t know why he’s still here. One of the IT guys here responded to an email of mine & cc’d a bunch of people. His response was very condescending and didn’t have anything to do with my original email. I hope those other people thought “What a jerk” but it still irks me that someone can treat another person this way and get away with it.

    I want to complain to his boss, but I’m sure his boss knows what a jerk the guy is.

    1. copy run start*

      There’s a guy in my office who loves to reply-all with superiority and condescending attitude, but it’s well known and we have permission to CC his boss on our replies when he goes too far. (Yet he’s still there….)

      It sounds like this culture is entrenched based on how many levels up it goes. I think leaving is the best solution. You can try to push back, but if you don’t have management support somewhere you may just be endangering yourself. Maybe one day they’ll realize why everyone who isn’t Chosen doesn’t stick around, but it sounds like you have a club of the Chosen Few and they are determined to keep it exclusive.

      At one particularly horrid job, I would write out all the things I wanted to say back in a Notepad window (because Outlook auto-saves drafts!!) and then X out of it when I was ready to compose something professional back.

      1. Argh!*

        I am indeed looking for a new job! The culture is that old-timers can do no wrong and anybody with less than 15 years on the job or isn’t one of the pets doesn’t have any say in anything. I counted up the vacancies a little while ago and it was up to 10%. HR is well aware of our messed up management but I haven’t seen any attempts to improve things.

        I replied-all on the latest piece of nonsense, and the person who in the end was responsible for fixing the problem replied-all that I was right, and reported that it was fixed. No additional response from the high priest.

        If I could put my finger on one thing that annoys me most about the culture here it’s that nobody ever apologizes for anything. In previous jobs, it was no big deal to say “I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. I see your point now.” Here it’s just not done. That adds fuel to the fire in terms of aggravation and anger.

  148. memyselfandi*

    Question for those working in a state agency or union position with pay grades – I currently work in a state agency where we have pay grades. Mine happens to be in the union but we all have them. There is a mismatch, I feel, between my pay grade and my credentials (advanced degree) and abilities. Because of this I am asked to do work that is “above my pay grade” but is professionally reward, but sometimes it is uncomfortable because I am not included in certain meetings or people don’t realize that I am at a relatively low pay grade (it is very hierarchical here) and say something that makes me want to say, “you know that applies to me?” I am looking at another position with a similar structure. The posting says “pay commensurate with education and experience” and my advanced degree is preferred, but the bottom pay step is a good $15,000 lower than I currently receive, while the middle step is about $6,000 more than I receive (and the kind of pay I would like to get). Does that indicate that maybe they have set the grade level for this position too low? I don’t want to end up in the same position I’m in now. How would I go about investigating this? I am a little naive about these things and for most of my life have done work because I find it interesting.

    1. LCL*

      I work in a heavily union government job, but not at the state level. Here, each job has a specific function and you are expected to do those duties, and only those duties, that are described. So our small group has people that have master’s degrees in teapot sorting, but we only do teapot polishing here and would never be asked to do teapot sorting. If an opening came up in the sorting group it would be announced internally, and those with the sorter degree would be the best candidates. Also, what is an integral part of our union environment is everyone who does a specific job is paid the same wage. Which is why people love and hate unions.

    2. Ainomiaka*

      Is that in the same agency? I just got burned real hard from this- I mentioned applying for an internal job. Because of the pay grade classification I got offered the chance to do more work for the same pay. I would check rules about transfers if it’s the same agency.
      At private companies this is less of an issue and I’m more inclined to say that you can negotiate.

    3. Lynca*

      I think it depends on how the agency (or state) does their pay structure and exactly how the other job is classified. Here you would only get a same pay result if the job was a lateral move but if you’re moving up into a supervisory or otherwise lead role it’s an entirely different grade. If I moved into a job with exactly the same title without supervisory duties I’d have the same pay. Not necessarily the exact same work but not the same pay.

    4. memyselfandi*

      I was able to find a list of position descriptions with grades for the organization and discovered that the position is essentially a program manager, which is what I am now. What makes them thing that someone with my degree would be interested in a position at that level? I’ll have to apply to find out.

    5. copy run start*

      I think each state and each agency is different. At my state agency, pay range was posted, and pay was set on hire based on your qualifications vs. qualifications of people in the position. There was a formula to convert degrees to years of experience. So while I assumed, and the hiring manager assumed, I would be on the bottom of the pay scale because I had little experience, having a totally unrelated and unnecessary degree put me in at the top because no one else in the role had a degree. It sounds like your agency works differently though.

      We also couldn’t spend more than 10% of our time in another job’s duties without running afoul of the union. I was stuck doing work far below my level because of this. I was not able to gain the hands-on skills needed to advance because I couldn’t stretch out of my role at all to become minimally qualified for the next level, and I was denied access to training courses and meetings because they were technically unnecessary for my job. (#reasonsIquit)

      From what I saw, when there was a huge range in the pay scale, it usually meant they were using one job classification to cover a swath of different duties/roles. “Admin assistant” could be used for anything from receptionist to an executive assistant, so the range would be $8/hour to $25/hour. The job description should give you a feel for the actual duties, but I’d ask a lot of probing questions during the interview, and look up the pay of other people in the same exact role if you can. See if you can cross-reference those other employees with a LinkedIn profile and learn their background.

      I believe for inter-agency transfers/promotions, my agency honored your existing pay if you moved to a job that paid less. It should be somewhere in the union contract or your agency handbook.

  149. Dr. KMnO4*

    I’ve been considering posting this in the Friday thread for a while, so I’m just going to jump in and do it. There isn’t a question here, just something work-related that I wanted to share.

    Over Thanksgiving I was considering the things that I’m thankful for, which included my job. That took me by surprise, until I thought about the differences between my current job and some of my past jobs. Right now I’m a visiting assistant professor in a STEM field at a small private college and I teach multiple sections of the introductory course in my discipline. It’s true that I’d much prefer to be on the tenure track, but even in STEM there are more job seekers than there are jobs.

    The reason I was surprised to be thankful for my job is because my previous jobs (HS teacher, graduate student) made me miserable. I taught at a very dysfunctional HS, which was compounded by the culture shock of going from an urban area in the North to a very rural area in the South. The less said about that job the better. Probably the worst part about grad school was my PI. She worked at least 60 hours a week (generally more), and expected her grad students to as well. She was very much a morning person and for a while we had weekly meetings starting at 7:30 am. The other days of the week we were expected to be at work by 8 am. I thought I was miserable going to work in the morning because of the time. But then I started my current job. I’m in my fourth semester at this college and I’ve taught at 8 am (4 days a week) every semester. And the early start time hasn’t been an issue. I realized that the reason I hated going to work in grad school had nothing to do with my start time and everything to do with the fact that I hated pretty much everything about grad school. I almost never got positive feedback (my PI’s philosophy was that the things she didn’t correct were fine, so not correcting something was her way of giving positive feedback), I didn’t like writing journal articles or my dissertation (understatement of the decade), I was sexually harassed by a member of my research group (my PI basically told me to just ignore it), and I was constantly micromanaged (my PI tracked who asked questions at every weekly research group meeting, and how many each person asked, and asking no questions was not acceptable).

    But now I love getting up in the morning and going to work. I look forward to teaching class and working with students. I enjoy the amount of freedom and control I have. I get positive feedback now, as my course evaluations have been fantastic overall, and students tell me that they like my teaching style and how approachable and helpful I am. I didn’t realize that I could love my job, that it would be a source of happiness in my life. Sure, it’s not perfect, but nothing in life (or academia) is perfect. I’m just amazed that I found the thing I want to do for the rest of my working life. Now, if only I could get a permanent position…

  150. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    With apologies for the delay, this is my “office furniture is made for the average male, and it sucks for everyone but especially women” post. I wanted to come up with a broad rant, but I realized it might be more helpful to just create space for everyone else’s rants. :)

    1. Murphy*

      I am a short woman, and I am always trying to find a balance between “I would like my feet to touch the floor” and “I would like to be able to comfortably reach the desk.” I usually end up sitting cross-legged in my chair to solve the first problem. When I was pregnant, I finally asked for a footstool because my belly made it impossible for me to do that. Now that I’m not pregnant, I still end up sitting cross legged a lot, but the footstool is still helpful. I’m glad I finally asked for one!

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Same, and I messed up my knee because of it! And if I’m wearing a skirt? Oy, don’t get me started on the awkward posture required (not to reopen yesterday’s debate…).

          The only solution I’ve found is a standing desk, but I prefer to sit when reading, so it is not helpful for 50-70% of my day.

          1. LAI*

            Really? I find that an adjustable desk works perfectly for me. I use it to stand and then when I want to sit, I lower it to the level that is comfortable for my keyboard. The desk is pretty low which does mean that I have to prop my screen up on a book to make it high enough off the desk, but it works. Obviously my chair is also adjustable so I just put it at the height where my feet comfortably reach the floor.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I love my adjustable desk for standing, but the problems with my stupid desk chair impact whether it’s effective to use my adjustable desk for reading (I mostly read on the screen instead of in paper). But my desk adjuster is also a table-top thing, not a full-on adjustable thing, which is probably why it causes so much trouble when combined with my stupid desk chair. If I get a chair that works, it’s too low for my desk. If I get a desk that works, it’s at odds with my chair. :(

      2. Fabulous*

        I keep a box under my desk for this reason. I can’t comfortably reach the floor and need to prop my feet up on something!

      3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        I’m short too, and I have a footrest, that helps a lot. It’s also an “office approved” heated footrest with helps in the winter because I’m in the draftiest area in the building. However, I also have issues with chairs. I can’t seem to get the arm raised/lowered right to where it’s comfortable and I’m not banging my elbows. Doesn’t help that I have had the same chair for 11 years either.

      4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Me too, I have to have a footrest. I got a nice rocking one a while back and that’s been pretty nice!

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I’m very short and usually end up cross-legged in my chair. At my very first adult job, one of my coworkers who was also very short if not shorter than me, had her husband make me a beautiful wooden foot stool. I used it for years. I have horrible posture at my desk.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m pregnant with my second child, and soon the time will come again that I have trouble reaching my keyboard in any comfortable manner because of my belly. I suppose I could get a standing desk, but by the time the belly is big enough that I’d need it, I will NOT want to stand for long periods of time. I’m longing for telecommuting again…it was great to sit on my couch in my roomiest sweats with a laptop! (and a dog or cat nearby for furry snuggles)

    4. KR*

      My office chair is gigantic. It’s meant for someone much larger than my 5ft tall petite frame. If I sit all the way back in it I can but have to shift up to the end of my chair to write or use my desk as a, you know, desk. I can’t push it in closer to my desk because I have a keyboard tray (which I already had to remove the front fold out part of it because it kept smashing into my arm rests and getting shoved in. So I never have back support in my chair.
      I have never had a chair meant for petite people or even people who aren’t large and tall. I’ve never had a desk that fits me – the one I have isn’t perfect but it works.
      Ugh

    5. Bobstinacy*

      Slightly off topic but all the uniforms made for my career are made for men. Sorry, I mean “gender neutral” but they just happen to be cut and sized to fit men.

      I’m so tired of ill fitting clothes, they’re uncomfortable and unsafe. Just once I want to custom order fitted women’s jackets and pants and watch the men have to suffer with weirdly fitted uniforms.

    6. copy run start*

      I’m tall but petite so you can usually fit two of me between the armrests of a standard office chair, and the back support is ALWAYS in the wrong spot. Pretty sure I have terrible posture because no chair has ever fit me right. I slouch constantly. I have a chair right now that only goes up/down at work and I loathe it. No one else has ergonomic/adjustable chairs either, so I don’t know if there’s much room to get a decent chair out of them. I’m considering just buying my own and bringing it in.

    7. HannahS*

      The pain, the pain! I’ve given up studying in libraries, coffee shops, the student lounge, the group-study student lounge…
      Basically, I’ve designed my own home study space around the shortest desk I could get at Ikea and the lowest chair, I still need a big textbook under my feet.

  151. Wendy City*

    Question about contract-to-hire work: so although I’ve been in my current position for less than a year, I’ve started the job hunt — although I could stick it out for just either hostile workplace or boring/unenjoyable work or lower pay than I’d like, the combination of the three is too much. Besides, I’ve nothing to lose. If I end up having to stay here longer because no one wants to hire someone who has been at their current job less than a year, then so be it, but I feel like I’ve got to take pro-active steps to leave or I’ll lose my mind.

    One of the applications I submitted was for a contract-to-hire creative role through a talent agency. I’m super unfamiliar with this structure, and the lack of a guaranteed full time job at the end of the contract is terrifying to me. But this talent agency offers insurance for contractors in a long-term role (which this would be) and works with you to find another placement, assuming contract termination isn’t your fault. And, because I’m so new to this city, I think it’s a great way to get my foot in the door at a new company without having many contacts/a big network. (I also like the idea that, should I hate the job, I won’t be in the position I am now — I can have the agency help me find a new placement).

    Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of role, especially in the creative field? Am I jumping from the frying pan and into the fire?

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I do, but with the warning that my experience was almost 20 years ago so things have definitely changed I’m sure. When I first started my graphic design career, I worked through an staffing agency that specialized in creative jobs like graphic designers, photographers, illustrators, etc. They often indicated that the place could be a contract-to-hire but IME, those never panned out. Usually the contract was for a specific purpose with an end goal — one big project the client needed extra people for or to cover a maternity leave, for example. The agency paid benefits once the employee reached a certain number of hours — easy to do if the placement was a 40-hour/week type position. I really enjoyed working through the agency for a few years because I was able to get experience working in a variety of companies and build up a portfolio and network that ultimately got me a permanent position not through the agency. However, usually the clients didn’t want to pay the hefty fees the agency would charge if they hired me within a year of my contract end. So a year or two after I finally got a permanent position and left the agency, I got calls from previous contract positions to see if I would be interested in their open position. If you’re flexible on your time-frame to finding a permanent position, can deal with the psychology of not being a permanent employee (contract employees are sometimes treated as second-class), and can financially swing sometimes not having a new placement lined up right after ending a contract, working through an agency can be interesting and good for beginning-career experience.

      One thing to keep in mind is that the agency doesn’t work for you and your best interests (not that they’re actively against you or anything) but they work for the clients best interests since they are the one paying the bill usually; so if you leave a placement because you don’t like the job/client, the agency might drop you.

      Someone with more recent experience might have a different view though.

    2. NDR*

      I did once (in a different city/years ago) and am sad the agency closed its office in my current just as I moved here. I worked with Aquent and thought they were a great resource. They truly had access to positions I’d never have found on my own, and they were also able to place me into something I may not have appeared as qualified for (but really was) to a recruiter who didn’t spend their time with the creative field. It was a well-paying copywriting position that did eventually turn permanent, though that wasn’t the guarantee. If you can get placed and the money/benefits work for you, I would go for it. At the end of your placement, they can help you find a new one, plus “contract position” is an acceptable reason for shorter stays in jobs.

  152. Vulture*

    I’m so behind on my work which is causing a lot of anxiety and stress that is seeping into my personal life. We’re fully staffed but can use the work of at least two more full-time employees. I am one of two people in my sub-department and together we supervise three part-time student employees. My co-worker has low productivity and motivation so things are taken from him and assigned to me on a regular basis requiring me to juggle a lot of projects that either take a long time to get completed and/or may have a lot of mistakes. My supervisor is aware of the issues but is putting a band-aid on the problem (reassigning his work to me) because he is checked out and looking to retire soon. I’m doing the best I can.

    My co-workers and direct reports seem to enjoy stopping by my desk and chatting. I enjoy catching up sometimes but this has become a daily issue and I can have people revolving in and out of my shared office several times an hour. The distraction is impacting my work and ability to stay focused and I’m missing deadlines. One employee in particular likes just being in my office, even though he has his own work to accomplish, and will sometimes sit on my windowsill while I work or stand behind me watching me work. I’ve expressed how I need to focus on my work and can’t talk which *sometimes* works in the moment but he ends up coming back later that day or the next day. One of my direct reports always comes in and wants to chat for the first 20-30 minutes of his shift and no matter how many times I tell him he needs to come in and work on his assignments he rarely ever does. He always stops by and tries to talk.

    Today I asked my supervisor if I could work in another location for the day so I could get caught up on my work and have uninterrupted time to focus on a big project dealing with a lot of money that I’ll need to spend soon. He agreed, and I sent an email to my team that I would be working in a different location to catch up on some work and if they required my assistance they needed to send me an instant message. By 11am I had folks stopping by the temporary desk wanting to talk, wanting to know how I was doing, wanting to know why I was hiding, etc. It’s like they don’t have any social cues and completely ignore headphones or sitting in a remote corner of the office in the dark as a sign that says “leave me alone!”

    Do you all have any prompts that I can use to get people to leave me alone? Working from home is not an option. I I asked my supervisor if I could sit in a conference room with a closed door and declined. Things I’ve tried:
    * Sorry, I can’t really talk right now. I’m working on a project
    * I really have to focus on what I’m doing. Maybe I can come to your office in a little while and we can talk about [non-work thing] later?

    The lingering employee is an awkward situation as we’re work-friends but he feels like he has authority over me since he is senior to me in his sub-department as we share the same over-arching department. Some things I’ve said to him:
    * Did you need me for something? If not, I’ll need to get back to work.
    * I can talk for a few minutes but then I’ll need to get back to work. (I’ll turn around in my chair and put on headphones when I have finished talking but he will roll a chair into my cubicle and hang out on his phone, make unwanted comment on the stuff i’m doing on my computer, try to make further conversation about the same topics [his health, his schooling, things he read on the internet, re-hash the same inside jokes]

    Any suggestions on this? It’s causing me a lot of physical and mental stress but there are reasons why I can’t find another job at the moment and I need to make this work until I’m able to leave.

    1. Vulture*

      To elaborate on ” I asked my supervisor if I could sit in a conference room with a closed door and declined”
      He declined my use of a closed-door conference room but allowed me to sit at a desk in another part of the office today.

    2. Fabulous*

      What about putting up caution tape around your desk? I’ve considered that in the past. Or putting a large sign up that says something like “BUSY: Please Do Not Disturb”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I’d go with a sign that says “Please Do Not Disturb” and then stick in headphones and do not look up when people come by.

      2. Kitten*

        My team once had a report that took an hour to create and if you got interrupted, you had to start at the top of the hour. We had a block that we’d put on the desk in front of us that said ‘Running X Report – Come Back Later’ and everyone knew to come back later if it was up.

        It only worked because everyone knew about the report and because we would go and seek people out later on for follow up.

        OP, maybe you could block out specific ‘do not disturb’ hours in your calendar, let your team mates know that these are specific hours where you need to be left alone, and put some kind of sign up that reiterates? The trick, though, is being available for catch up at other times in the day – you need to be clear that you ARE available, just not now.

    3. Antti*

      I’m inclined to say that if your current approach isn’t working and you’re not getting any help from your boss with moving locations, you may just have to be much more direct in the moment. Particularly with your lingering coworker, I think it will help if you stop saying that you can talk for any length of time, even just a few minutes. I might open off with the “Did you need me…” line, but if he ignores that (very clear!) cue, you’ve got license to just say “look, I really can’t talk, you need to leave me alone right now”. It feels awkward, but the awkwardness belongs on him for ignoring what you’re telling him.

    4. ScullyversusMulder*

      One thing I’ve noticed Alison suggesting – asking the listener “if you can do that?” at the end of a strongly worded suggestion.

      For instance, “Fergus, I will stop by at 1pm to discuss topic with you, but you need to get out and let me finish my work.” If they don’t leave, or if they continue to talk say, “Okay, we can discuss this at 1pm, but I need you to leave now, can you do that?”

      If your office has a door, and you can close it – do so. If you are working from another desk, don’t give up your location, simply saying you are available by IM is enough.

      Stop couching your phrases “can’t really talk right now” should be ” I don’t have time for this discussion, send me a meeting invite” and then turn away. If you are too busy to chat, say so. If they ignore it, say it again using the exact same words. Stop engaging. Don’t talk for a ‘few minutes’. Then if they ignore your request that they leave, turn away and continue working, you are not being rude. They are because they’ve ignored your requests.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Encounter stress really sucks. Some suggestions:

      – Have a drop-in period when you will be around for people to chat. Possibly with a sign-up sheet – the rest of the time, point people to this and continue working.
      – When you tell people you can’t talk, don’t wait for them to agree. Turn back to your work.
      – Ask your supervisor to help you prioritise as you cannot do everything on your plate. When assigned something new ask what you should drop or move back. As you can’t keep taking on more and more.

      And above all remember this: you can just tell people you can’t talk and are busy. On repeat. Broken record technique.

  153. Snow or sun?*

    My manager sent me a congratulatory email for my work anniversary earlier today. He thanked me for the work I do and said I am a great asset to the team. I feel a bit guilty since I am looking to relocate to New York in the next year or so…

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Don’t feel guilty. You’ve done good work and it’s been recognised. That doesn’t mean you have to stay for life!

  154. Bacon Pancakes*

    Any advice on how to help seasonal employees transition to other jobs? We have several great employees that were hired upwards of four years ago for seasonal employment. They continue to return and that is great because we like them! But… there is no future in 9 mo/10$hr jobs. There is no way to make their positions full-time/permanent. I have been up selling jobs (even other seasonal work that will round out the resume) that sounds interesting, but they always want to come back. I want to see them suceed and move on, but they are all determined to “hold out” until “something” comes up.

    1. DMLT*

      Their lives, their call. If they want to keep coming back, let them. Some people are truly happy with this kind of work. I’ve known several.

  155. mdv*

    Today is WORST BOSS EVER’s last day before retirement… and Sunday is my 20th anniversary in my job. I have successfully outlasted WBE!

  156. Jazzyisanonymous*

    I’m in a bad situation.
    I spent most of last year working 60-70 hours a week to get promoted to a position that was supposed to be less stressful.
    I started the promotion in October and it’s even worse. I’m working just as many or more hours and management keeps pushing for more. We’re the busiest in the history of our company, and they’ve also announced a harsh audit of file quality. On top of that I’m dealing with extremely abusive customers. And now management is closely watching how we spend each minute of the day. I have friends working upwards of 14 hours a day. And we just keep picking up the slack when people quit.
    I’m not really eating or sleeping anymore, and I’ve been applying elsewhere and nobody has called me.
    I can’t afford to quit and have no place else to go. Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? I’m just crying every night and having nightmares about work when I do sleep. I want to see a therapist but work gets in the way.

    1. ScullyversusMulder*

      Please make the calls and set up an appointment with a therapist. There are plenty who have hours outside of standard business hours. Make it a priority, even if you have to take a half day. If you had a broken leg, you wouldn’t hesitate to get help, your mental health is just as important.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. Please be sure to eat – that’s just making the stress worse and your body literally needs fuel just like a car. Buy a bag of apples to keep at your desk if you have to. Sleep is more of a challenge if you are that stressed but it is also not negotiable.

    2. Fiona*

      Agree with all these commenters. “I have a doctor’s appointment” is the vague, urgent magic bullet that means you CAN and you SHOULD leave work to go to a session. If your organs were breaking down, would you not leave work to go to the emergency room? Of course you would. This is the same thing. You are breaking down and you should go to a therapist because this is an emergency health issue.

      At some point down the road, you will have a different job and you’ll be able to look back upon this time. Until then, be gentle and kind with yourself.

    3. Natalie*

      This is admittedly high risk, but someone here once made a point I thought was worth considering: if they need all of you so badly that they want you to work 14+ hours a day, they’re pretty unlikely to fire you if you refuse to work more than 10.

      Ultimately, you’re going to have to drop the rope. This company has demonstrated that they will take advantage of you given the opportunity, and they are not suddenly going to change that behavior someday.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Yes. This. They need you more than you need them but have you so stressed and worn down that you feel like you have no leverage.

  157. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Quick etiquette question:

    I manage a very high-profile program. The program participants are the presidents and CEOs of Fortune 50 corporations, universities, very large nonprofits, and public agencies. I’m a mid-level nonprofit manager (that is to say: these folks “outrank” me by orders of magnitude).

    We held an event this week, and a lot of these folks asked for me to follow up with them about various aspects of the program. These aren’t people that I know personally or have worked with before. I use first names for all communications unless asked to do otherwise. But: one of the participants who asked for follow up is the president of a university and has a PhD. Should I begin my email with “Ibrahim” or “Dr. Khan”?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Eh, I’d do Dr. Khan unless he tells you otherwise. I work at a university and maybe this is just my bias, we’ve always called the president Dr. K no matter what.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Ahh, and now there’s another: the CEO of a hospital system, who is a medical doctor. Also Dr. Khan?

  158. Anonnie*

    Should I send individual thank you emails to each person I interview with? Or one per group?

    First part was SuperJ, SuperCoworkerA, second part was 4 coworkers, third was SuperJ and their BigBossA .

    I was thinking individual emails for SuperJ, SuperCoworkerA & BigBossA, and a group email to the 4 coworkers.

    1. Brooke H*

      I’m wondering about this too. I have an academic interview next week where I will have several group interview with many attendees. If I know who is there, I am thinking of emailing each on; if it is an open group session, I wont’ be trying to figure out who all was there. I also had a video interview and I wrote brief thank you emails to each person (7) and customized each one. Which leads me to the dilemma of after the interview whether I can send emails or if I will need to send mailed thank you notes…

      1. LAI*

        Normally, I think a group email is fine. I have been on a few hiring committees and personally, I have never cared (or even really noticed) whether I received an individual email or a group one. However, if they were actually separate interviews, I would probably lean toward one per group. That’s because I like to customize the email to what we discussed, so parts of it wouldn’t make sense if it were sent to people who weren’t present.

    2. Anonnie*

      I ended up sending separate emails to SuperJ, SuperCoworkerA & BigBossA. Sent a group email to the 4 coworkers.

      I am comfortable with how I handled it.

      Wish me luck, ya’ll!

  159. Lizabeth*

    Follow up to last week’s open thread: we had a meeting with the health insurance broker this week and found out that:
    a) they have to give 30 day notice to our health insurance so we’re covered until the end of February, if the sale goes forward at the end of January.
    b) still not in writing but a stipend of $880/month towards health insurance was mentioned.
    c) the existing health insurance is cheaper per month than the stipend so they “may” continue it till the policy year end but this is only the broker’s recommendation and may not be done if the new company wants us inline with everybody else.
    d) they might not do c, but there’s more time to figure out healthcare.gov or other options, etc.
    e) dental will go bye-bye which is a bummer.

    A shoutout to the office squawker who pushed back on TPTB about the health care issue. We still don’t know why the new company wants to keep them on as managers since they dug the hole they’re in all by themselves, while ignoring solid advice from experienced people.

    However asked the BIL to check on the company (financial guy) and couldn’t find anything bad on them or the two capital funding companies that have money in them. It should be an interesting year…at least entertaining.

  160. MsChanandlerBong*

    After 10 years of freelancing, I have accepted a full-time position with one of my former clients. The salary is about $800 less than I grossed last year; however, I will no longer be responsible for both portions of the SS and Medicare taxes, so I will actually end up with more in my pocket. I have also been without any paid time off for the past 10 years, so it will be nice to have two weeks of paid vacation.

    I started Monday, and I’m struggling to get used to having a rigid schedule again, but I think it will work out nicely. As a freelancer, there were days where I would put in 20 hours of work or stay up all night to make sure a project got done on time. Now I work from 8 to 4:30 (a little later during our busy season) and don’t have to do any extra work at night or on weekends unless I want to pick up some freelance assignments elsewhere. It is going to be really weird to finish work on Friday and have absolutely no obligations again until Monday morning!

    1. fposte*

      Hey, congratulations, Ms. C! Sounds like that’ll take some mental weight off even if you have to do a little more of the grind with the rest of us.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Congratulations! Another ex freelancer here and it’s still a novelty having money arrive regularly every single month.

  161. Jane-onymous*

    This is a situation I am not sure how to handle: I recently started a new job, and I know that they have had some HR staffing issues, but it is past the time that I and multiple other employees should have been able to access our health insurance benefits. I had to ask repeatedly for enrollment forms, turned them in, but still don’t have access or word when I’ll be able to access my insurance. I have spoken to HR about access, alerted them to the fact that I and other employees should be able to access insurance benefits, and asked for follow up.
    I keep being told they will follow up, but then they dont. Then they said they needed to follow up with someone else higher in the food chain, who I happened to run into. They also said they would follow up, but didnt.
    Um. What do I do? I have had to pay for some stuff out of pocket, and I understand staffing issues can cause a backlog, but I am very concerned as to what is going on and what I can do to resolve this in a manner that doesn’t make me look like a rabble rouser. But the reality is that they promised health insurance to me and other employees in our offer letters, and we should have been able to take advantage of these benefits by now.

    1. ScullyversusMulder*

      submit an expense report for reimbursement of your medical expenses. Don’t include receipts, just call it “medical expenses”

      1. Cinnamonroll*

        These ‘benefits’ are part of your compensation. They are withholding your compensation.

      2. Jane-onymous*

        If it makes sense, Im more concerned about actually getting the benefits than the (thankfully small) out of pocket stuff I have had to cover. I’m afraid to submit the expense report if it will make them angry about it? I do feel hesitant to poke the bear, so to speak.

    2. fposte*

      Wow, that is deeply messed up, and quite possibly illegal. I would ask your local location of the DOL what to do.

    3. Reba*

      Where is your manager in this? Do they know what’s up, do they understand how serious and could they put some pressure on HR?

      1. Jane-onymous*

        Manager knows and can’t do anything about it. They keep encouraging me to keep sending emails to HR, but in my opinion it should only take 1 before the issue gets resolved.

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      How long has it been? As fposte notes, it could be illegal based on how long it’s taking. Can you also escalate up the chain? Is there anyone higher up from the higher up?

      This is a big deal from a legal compliance perspective, not just a life perspective (it’s obviously more important because of the practical effect on your life, but I find that sometimes company’s are more responsive when they’re put on notice that they’re risking legal liability). and you shouldn’t have to pay out-of-pocket for the cost of medical care that is supposed to be covered in part by your insurance.

      1. Jane-onymous*

        Several months for some people.
        And I’m not sure how to phrase it so they understand the urgency of the situation and don’t just dismiss me as ‘that employee.’ I noticed a much smaller situation where they were potentially legally out of compliance with local labor laws, and they still took their sweet time in reectifying the situation. Ultimately I felt unheard, but it was nothing like this. What if someone who was waiting on insurance got intona car wreck commuting tomorrow? Life happens!

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Is there any chance your coworkers would be willing to band together and complain jointly? I think it might strengthen the quickness with which they respond. It’s absolutely not ok that they still haven’t gotten you enrolled!

    5. LCL*

      Do you know the name of the insurance company? I would start with calling and talking with them. They can’t tell you about anyone else obviously, but they should be able to tell you if your company is paying for your health insurance with them. Whatever you find out will be helpful when you talk to HR.

  162. GOG11*

    Hello all! I feel weird replying “you’re welcome” to thank you emails, especially when the thank you is from someone higher up. Ex., boss’ boss asked me for some information, I got it to them, they said thank you for your quick response. Is it weird to say you’re welcome? If they were a peer, or even my direct boss, I usually say “no problem” or “my pleasure,” though sometimes I don’t respond (one of my boss’ says thank you, I think as acknowledgement of receipt, to a lot of my emails).

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      One of my employees responds “you’re welcome” to my emails that say “thank you” as an acknowledgement of receipt, and I wish he wouldn’t. That said, since another one of my employees usually doesn’t acknowledge receiving any email I send, I prefer the over-response to the under-response. I’d say to read the context, and if the thank you is shorthand for “got it, thank you,” no response is needed.

      1. GOG11*

        If there’s any information that I need to know from the email (ex., please review info below that pertains to you somehow) I’ll say I received it. If it’s an actionable item, I either do it then and my response includes what they were requesting, or I let them know I have it on my calendar to do on [day I’ve scheduled it].

        While reading through replies, I realized that, when people submit documents to me (I get a lot of certain kinds of them from various people I work with), I reply with thank you, [name].

        I’m glad it’s Friday, because apparently my brain has checked out early :)

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t usually respond to these emails – I consider the thank you as them closing the loop.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Agreed. I consider the ‘thank you’ as the acknowledgement that they have everything they need and don’t bother responding.

    3. Rockhopper*

      Yeah, I don’t bother with “you’re welcome” emails. Why add to the already overflowing inbox? Sure, if they thanked you in person, it makes sense to say it but when they thank you on email, I consider it more a “I received it and this is so you can prove I did.”

  163. SpiderLadyCEO*

    I’m about 5 months into a 15 month contract that I moved 2,000 miles for. Now it seems like there is less work than anyone thought there would be.

    I’m terrified my company will lay me off, or ask that I move again. I would love to move – new city is a terrible fit, and I was going to move once my contract ended – but I’m so anxious about the details for this. I’ll be asking my manager on Monday what she thinks, but its still making me super anxious.

  164. Need a Raise*

    As far as company budget concerns go, is there a best time to ask for a pay raise? Beginning of quarter, end of quarter, etc?

    1. CAA*

      If you can, aim for about 3 months before the end of the fiscal year in order to have a chance of influencing the next year’s budget. If that won’t work, then I’d say it doesn’t really matter.

    2. Kathenus*

      It depends more on when they budget planning process occurs than the fiscal year itself. We are on a calendar year fiscal year but we do our budget planning and requests very early – they’re due in mid July to early August. So we need to think really far in advance for things like this. Past jobs we’ve done budget planning 2-3 months before the next fiscal year – so it may vary depending on your organizations planning cycle.

  165. Heather Taylor*

    I work in HR and am fairly new to the field (less than 2 years experience). I help with the staff recruiting for our company. A few months ago, I was corresponding with a candidate and I informed him via email when his in-person interview would be taking place, with a few days notice. When the scheduled interview time came and went and he did not show up, the hiring manager asked me to reach out to him. He explained that he had his dates confused and asked if he could reschedule. I relayed the information to the hiring manager and she said that she didn’t want to bring him in if he couldn’t keep his dates straight. My question is if this is common practice or if we should have given him another chance. I felt kind of guilty about it after the fact because he seemed to just have legitimately made a mistake.

    1. Parse*

      It does suck for him if it genuinely was a mistake (which happens), but ultimately, it’s the hiring manager’s choice. And if the hiring manager values things like punctuality and organization, clearly this is a red flag.

    2. miyeritari*

      I think you could go either way. Missing your interview is pretty bad, but stuff happens and people misplace stuff. I think the hiring manager is being a little harsh, but not unreasonably harsh.

      1. sunshyne84*

        Yea it does sound a little harsh. What’s the point of reaching out if you’re not going to let him reschedule? I don’t know what the job is, but it’s a simple mistake.

        1. LAI*

          I would reach out to find out what happened. If the applicant were in a terrible car crash on their way to the interview and had to go to the hospital, or had some other legitimate emergency, I would let them reschedule.

    3. LAI*

      The thing is, you are supposed to be on your best behavior when you’re applying for a job. Like, it’s ok to have a typo or two in an average work email, but you should really make sure you don’t have any in your job application. You can be 5 minutes late to a normal work meeting, but you can’t be late to an interview. So basically, people assume that your behavior during the interview process is the best it can be – a mistake that would be acceptable in other circumstances isn’t acceptable now. And mixing up your dates (especially when you had them in writing) is a much, much bigger mistake than a typo or being a few minutes late. If I had other good applicants for a job already, I would be inclined not to reschedule too.

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      I can see this happening if the candidate wasn’t the manager’s first pick or if it’s the type of job that doesn’t have a lot of specific qualifications. It’s a decision you can safely make if you probably weren’t going to hire that guy anyway.

  166. elwm73*

    I’m really weirded out right now so if I accidentally push any buttons I apologize. This is tangentially work related.

    Why do I always find out, while I am at work, that someone close to me has died?
    I can’t always blame it on the messenger. Though sometimes I can, thanks-a-lot, MOM!

    Thankfully I’ve lost no one so close that I have to drop everything and leave. My workplace is such that I can escape into the closet or my car or for a walk (I’m in a cubby) to just cry my heart out for a few minutes, just enough to get it out of my system until I can get home, but jeez. The freedom to grieve immediately would be wonderful.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      I don’t know that you’re necessarily looking for advice, but maybe after this particular situation is all settled, you could say to your mom “I would prefer in the future if something like that happens if you wait until I’m home from work to notify me”. Which obviously won’t help if you’re finding out from someone else or on social media (ugh), but it might help some.

    2. hjt1420*

      I had to tell people close to me that if something bad ever happened to please wait until after work hours to let me know. Obviously there are some circumstances where this isn’t always the best option, like major emergencies, but if they can wait until after I leave work then they should.

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I have a rule with friends and family. If it’s a “drop-everything-and-get-here-right-this-second” emergency, call my direct line at my desk. Everything else? My cell. That way I can choose when/where to listen.

  167. Aleta*

    Okay… so… again with First Time Office Job Clothes questions.

    So, how bad is it to wear one set of bottoms all week even if you’re on top of washing them? I’m very small, with an exaggerated hourglass figure, and it is nigh IMPOSSIBLE to find bottoms that fit. I have found exactly one, a pair of dark olive green slacks that fit beautifully, but that’s all I have, and I start on Monday, and haven’t been able to find anything else that fits. We do have casual Fridays and I have very smart black jeans for that, so really only four days, but still. If they were black I wouldn’t be worried, but I’m not sure about wearing olive green even if I was planning to doing laundry more often.

    1. Murphy*

      I routinely wear the same couple of pants. I wore the same pair of pants three days in a row this week (navy blue/grayish). I don’t think anyone will notice or care.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think olive green is likely to stand out so people might notice. I don’t think it’s necessarily the worst thing ever, but it might raise some eyebrows.

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      I am not the person to talk to about fashion and clothes, but I would say that you’re probably okay, and if someone comments you can either lie and say that you love them so much you have multiple pairs, tell the truth that you’re on top of washing them, or tell the truth that you have a hard time finding slacks that fit right but you’re looking forward to going shopping for a new pair once you get your first paycheck. Well, that last clause might not be the truth :-) )

    4. Anita-ita*

      4 days is a bit of a stretch. Usually I say 2 days in a row or 2 days in a week is the max. Is there a way you can find the pants that fit you and buy other colors?

      Also – I LOVE these pants (link below – sorry it’s so long). My body figure is fit but larger bum and smaller waist. I also wear tighter fit pants (almost always actually – think ponte leggings) with a long blouse that covers my bum. For size reference I am 5’4, my waist is about 26.5 and my hips/bum area are 36

      https://www.macys.com/shop/product/alfani-tummy-control-skinny-pants-created-for-macys?ID=700371&pla_country=US&CAGPSPN=pla&CAWELAID=120156340003020130&CAAGID=52296664212&CATCI=aud-323276879994:pla-382678813415&cm_mmc=Google_Womens_PLA-_-RTW+Womens_Alfani+-+GS_Pants-_-222707503837-_-pg1979871_c_kclickid_b7201792-b62c-45cb-bb40-de4787377c6d&trackingid=424×1979871&catargetid=120156340018374410&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKCAiA1uHSBRBUEiwAkBCtzYXoZkg4uY1N_gEi9r1jHMy59A05ZzGjN3em0qnO1E7rTkX0avXQtBoCQXIQAvD_BwE

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      As long as they’re not really distinctive ones, go for it. Plain olive green isn’t all that remarkable.

      Most likely, people will assume you’re like me and find one cut of pants that is divine, then buy like eight pairs of it.

    6. Reba*

      I feel like *I* would notice (but I wouldn’t think much of it) but I wouldn’t be surprised if lots of people didn’t.

      I know how hard it is to find good fitting clothes. Once you’re getting a paycheck, maybe some tailoring is in your future–a tailor or plenty of websites can help you learn how to shop with an eye to what’s doable with alterations. I have many pairs of pants that have had the waists taken in.

      Are dresses an option for you?

    7. k.k*

      If they were a more traditional neutral like black, grey, or tan I would say go ahead, but olive is more likely to stand out. I hate to say that. For context, I wore the same dress three times this week, I’m all for repeat wearing. Any chance you can find the same pair in a different color? If they’re older and no longer in stock you might try just googling the brand and style, a third party seller may still have some.

    8. CG*

      You have my sympathies! Women’s work pants are the gd worst.

      I’m in the camp of 4 days being a bit of a stretch with olive green, but I don’t think anyone would say anything to you! Not sure if you’re in the market for other clothing right now, but I’ve got a similar situation (but tall instead of small) and tend to gravitate toward dresses, skirts, and/or things with “ponte” in the name for that reason (reasonably priced examples: https://www.target.com/p/women-s-houndstooth-ponte-pants-a-new-day-153-gray/-/A-52825880#lnk=newtab&preselect=52665052; https://www.modcloth.com/shop/sale/breathtaking-tiger-lilies-skirt/50818.html; https://www.landsend.com/shop/womens-dresses-ponte/-/N-fy7Zh08 sale dresses).

    9. Camellia*

      Sorry if this seems like an obvious question but can you get more of the same pants in different colors? If not in the store where you bought them, maybe from Amazon or other on-line distributor?

    10. AnotherAlison*

      My aunt has more of an exaggerated pear figure than an hourglass, but she had a similar problem with pants. She ultimately had to buy all her pants to fit her butt and have the waist taken in a lot. (Seriously, when I graduated college, I was 5′-4″ and 105 lbs and could not zip up the waist of a skirt she gave me.) This was fine for her because she could sew, but you may want to look into buying pants for your largest part and having them tailored (maybe a longer term thing if you’re just starting to work).

    11. LAI*

      Personally, I don’t think I would want to do 4 days, especially since it is a slightly distinctive color and especially since it is your first week. I wouldn’t want the first thing my new co-workers know about me to be that I always wear the same pants. If they were black, I think it’d be much less noticeable since it’s likely that most people have multiple pairs of black pants. You can’t buy some more pairs of the same pants in different colors?

      On the other hand, how often do I actually notice what other people are wearing? Unless it’s a distinctive item that I really like and remark on, almost never.

    12. Anono-me*

      If you can find another pair of pants or even two; I would suggest doing so.
      Some people will notice that you keep wearimg the same pair of green pants. Most won’t say anything, but you probably don’t want to be given the nickname “the green pants” lady .

      1. Anono-me*

        I want to follow up with something that I think is important to keep in mind when asking the AAM commentators for their thoughts. In my opinion; People here are much much much nicer than average.
        While I do work with some very nice people, not all of my coworkers are like the AAM crowd and unfortunately your new company will probably also have some people whose emotional maturity peaked in junior high school.

    13. nep*

      I’m trying to recall what pants my colleagues were wearing today.
      Can’t recall any of them.
      Sure — there might be some element of more attention on you since you’re new. But I really think if you look sharp and clean/groomed and with varying styles on top, you should be fine. Great that you’ve got the casual Friday to round out the week. I say go for it and don’t let it be a source of stress.

      1. nep*

        P.S. And concentrate on things that are more important as far as early impressions — your confidence, your ability to learn, your authenticity, your hard work.

    14. Book Lover*

      I have the same issue, short and too curvy. I honestly have given up on finding slacks that look good, so congratulations on finding a pair!

      Since you mentioned casual Fridays, I assume you are business casual the rest of the time? A line skirts or dresses might be a good choice and be possible to find at a reasonable price before Monday. If you are worried that A line doesn’t look business dress enough, then pencil skirts and just accept the waist will be too big until you can afford to get them tailored – wear a nice sweater or tank with cardigan on top.

      If business formal, then skirt suit and the jacket will hide the waistline.

    15. Kerr*

      Oof. If they were black or gray I’d say go for it, but the same pair of olive green would probably be noticeable. (I have a rant about the unrealistic expectation that people wear different outfits all the time, but I’ll save it.)

      If it were me, I’d probably spend the weekend shopping for a placeholder skirt or dress and wear the pants on alternate days.

  168. She's Leaving Home*

    I left my ToxicJob last March (and now love where I work, yay!) but I’m realizing that I don’t know whether or not they have my correct address for my W2…we didn’t have an HR and I am not looking forward to getting back in touch with my old toxic manager. Sigh.

  169. Annie Mouse*

    I passed my exam this week :D so happy! Just a few assignments to go and then that’s the worst of first year done!
    I knew it would be a good week when it started with one patient abruptly becoming two in a lift! Babies can be so impatient!

  170. Lucas Converse*

    What is the best route to go in obtaining my w-2 with the following scenario? –> My boss and I had a “bitter breakup” and wont accept calls/texts so I can update my address since I moved. I also have a voicemail from him saying if I were to be on his property, he informed all employees to call the cops. And let me remind you, there is absolutely no reason for calling the cops. I was there for 7 years and wanted to move on. That was it.

    1. fposte*

      The IRS provides: suggestion 2 is “Contact the IRS. After February 14, you may call the IRS at 800-829-1040 if you have not yet received your W-2. Be prepared to provide your name, address, Social Security number and phone number. You should also have the following information when you call:

      • Your employer’s name, address and phone number;
      • Your employment dates; and
      • An estimate of your wages and federal income tax withheld in 2012, based upon your final pay stub or leave-and-earnings statement, if available.”

      1. Bacon Pancakes*

        I think it is policy to not forward W-2’s. At least, my employer has posted on all my January paystubs to check your address before they mailed w-2s because they can’t be forwarded.

        1. Natalie*

          No, they can be forwarded. Your company may be trying to save people the extra time that forwarding takes, or simply mistaken.

    4. CAA*

      If you haven’t already, put in a forwarding order with the Post Office so they will send your mail to your new address.

      If you don’t get a W-2 by mid-February, then you can still file your tax return. You fill out Form 4852, which is basically the W-2 your company should have given you, and file that along with your return.

  171. miyeritari*

    just an INSANELY busy workweek for me, holy buckets. i do user operations for my company and the company sent out 30M emails. usually our response amount is handable by me but this week and friday was OVERWHELMING. 50 hour workweek when I usually work 38-40. i had an office cry the previous friday and nearly had another one on monday. things are slowing down to normal and i feel so grateful.

    i wrote a list of all the ways i can improve the efficiency of the system that i noticed were lacking because i was so busy. so i guess that’s an upside. also my boss realized how overworked i was and helped out… so it’s nice to feel appreciated and seen when you struggle. the one perk of the week was i got a piece of video game equipment yesterday that i wanted the past two months, so that’s nice.

    hope everyone else had a decent week.

  172. Annabelle*

    I feel like this might be sort of a weird question, but bear with me. My SIL is unemployed and has been for as long as I’ve known her, so my wife supports her financially. This wasn’t the worst arrangement at first, but paying our household bills with only my small-ish salary is becoming untenable.

    SIL has applied to a bunch of different retail jobs with no luck. I’ve helped her with her resume, my wife has given her interview tips, and we’re at a loss. Does anyone have any advice for getting hired with a very sparse work history?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If I’m understanding this correctly, your wife is not working either?

      I don’t know how this whole arrangement came to be initially, but I think you need to start by having a frank conversation with your wife that it is no longer feasible and you need to come up with another plan. Either wife needs to get a job or SIL needs to get a job/find someone else to support her.

      1. Annabelle*

        Ah no, my wife does have a job. She works crazy long hours and brings home a decent amount of money for her industry, it just all goes either directly to her sister or to assorted non-household bills (car payment, student loans, etc).

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Then I think it’s still worth having a conversation with her about how you’re handling household finances. The best setups I’ve seen for this is that there is one shared account for household bills and then each person has an individual account for their own things. You total up your typical monthly bills and each person contributes a set amount to the shared account based on their salary.

          Like… if Ray makes $5000 and Kevin makes $2500, then Ray contributes 67% and Kevin contributes 33% rather than having them split it 50/50.

          1. Annabelle*

            I like this idea a lot. She helps with smaller bills when she can, but we don’t really have a solid system like this.

          2. fposte*

            Yeah, I totally agree. It seems like Mrs. A’s support for her sister is being couched as her thing because it comes from her money and therefore above question, but when it means that Mrs. A’s thing keeps her from contributing to the household, that’s a household decision, not a personal one.

            1. Annabelle*

              Yeah definitely, that’s why it’s so frustrating both financial and just like, emotionally. They’re twins and really close, so I know she doesn’t want to be too hard on her sister, but it’s just not a situation I can manager forever.

              1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                You and your wife can be compassionate about sister’s situation while also making sure that you’re taking care of your own needs. I know it won’t be an easy conversation, but I’d suggest getting all the household bills together and putting together a spreadsheet (or list if you’re not a spreadsheet person) of your monthly expenses as a couple.

              2. fposte*

                Hopefully she also doesn’t want to be too hard on you, though, which is what seems like is unintentionally happening.

                1. Annabelle*

                  Yeah, I hate complaining about it because I know she’s helping out of the goodness of her heart. But it’s really tough. Living in a safe area in our city is really expensive and things are just starting to pile up.

        1. Annabelle*

          So the current situation is that my wife’s paycheck gets split between her own car bills and loan repayment and her sister’s rent/phone/utilities. It’s definitely not viable for the long term, though.

      1. Annabelle*

        That’s a really good idea and someone an avenue we haven’t explored yet. So far SIL has just been applying to entry level stuff online and to postings she sees around town.

    3. CAA*

      Could she do restaurant work? Craigs List usually has lots of those types of openings, and many of them don’t require experience.

      1. Annabelle*

        In the past she’s flat out refused to apply to any food service jobs, but we’ve both talked to her about how ridiculous that is. Looking on Craigslist is a good idea though. It seems that the jobs she’s finding on Indeed and other sites require at least a couple years of experience.

        1. Snark*

          I think it’s reasonable to expect her to take whatever paying work she can comfortably and competently perform, whether she’s delighted with that particular work or not, if she’s going to accept money that would otherwise go to your household and savings.

    4. Camellia*

      And not to sound too harsh, but where is her incentive to get a job if she is already being financially supported? Most of us try really hard to get a job so that we can buy food, clothing, and shelter, because otherwise we may end up starving and naked on the street. The suggestions to list your bills and work out a way to divvy up your and your wife’s income to make sure your own bills are covered sounds like a great start, but you may also need to look at slowly weaning your SIL off of your support. I realize that may not be possible from your wife’s point of view but sounds like something you need to think about since you say it is becoming untenable.

      1. Annabelle*

        This definitely doesn’t sound too harsh. IMO, my wife is sort of enabling her sister and handling her with kid gloves. She has stopped paying for non-essentials though (cable, new makeup, general frivilous things), so that’s a start.

        1. Gala apple*

          I’ve heard Dave Ramsey answer variations of this question before. His advice is to tell the person, on x date, we will no longer be supporting you.

  173. Red Reader*

    I just used Back to the Future to explain circular reference errors in Excel to one of the other managers (not mine) who answers to my grandboss. I fear she totally won’t get it.

    1. Red Reader*

      … her response was that “Well, you do remind me of the professor from the movie! :) ” I’m not really sure how to interpret that, but I’m going to take it in the positive? Heh. :)

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I once used Lord of the Rings to explain something in a meeting. Half the group enjoyed it, half did not. :)

  174. Higher Ed Database Dork*

    Fellow Database admins!

    I’m currently a database developer (ETL to be exact) but my long term goal is to be a DBA. I think my biggest challenge in reaching this goal is getting into the “DBA mindset.” My background – I graduated with an English degree and never took any CS courses. All of my IT knowledge has been on the job training, therefore there are a lot of gaps (my first “trainer” in SQL taught me a lot about programming reports for a specific subject area, but never mentioned anything about indexes because he hated working with them, and therefore never did, so I’m really weak on my understanding of indexes). A lot of foundational things I have just had to learn over time. I’ve done some training courses here and there, but they are always for specific programs or tasks. I would really like to learn how to think like a DBA. Like – what things should always be in my mind when I am tasked with onboarding or troubleshooting an unfamiliar database? What are basic principles of administering a database? What are some skill sets I need to master that can apply to most systems?

    I’m mostly looking to administer Oracle but my group handles Oracle, MSSQL, and MySQL currently. There may be opportunities to get into some NoSQL stuff in the future, but I still feel like I’m missing a big chunk of foundational principles that could apply to any database. The DBAs on my team are great people and always answer my questions but we’re all super busy so I don’t want to eat up their time and pester them to mentor me.

    Recommendations for books, courses, blogs, etc are greatly appreciated!

    1. AnotherJill*

      Have you looked at any of the Oracle courses (http://education.oracle.com)? They have a variety of options.

      CS courses are generally more programming/theoretical oriented, so are likely not going to be that helpful. I’d look for programs more specifically in Information Technology, as those are generally more applied knowledge. If you have a local community college, they will likely have courses that might give you some more formal foundational training.

    2. AnotherJill*

      Have you looked at any of the Oracle courses (http://education.oracle.com)? They have a variety of options.

      CS courses would likely not be helpful as they are generally more programming/theoretical. I’d look for options in Information Technology programs. For instance, if you have a local community college, they will likely have courses that might give you some more formal foundational training.

    3. ScoutFinch*

      I am a higher ed DBA , too. I was not a CS major in college. I had a few CS-type courses (COBOL – yeah, I’m old, Systems Design & maybe a couple of others).

      I have learned a lot just by building new test databases and practicing (backups, automation, testing maintenance tasks on crontab, things to help the users get their tasks/reports easier) on those. While the Oracle courses are a good option, the prices are out of range for many higher ed employees (and institutions). I have had a couple of Oracle courses, but they were sponsored by our Board of Regents (I am sure they negotiated a good price for basically filling 2 rounds of training) in order to give our 20+ institutions a way to get some kind of training for local staff. (Otherwise, the BoR would be responsible for DBA tasks at 20+ institutions and they did not have the staff for that). I find that if I do not use the training material as soon as possible, Google serves me just as well. That’s me – you may be different.

      Blogs/listervs of HE DBAs are probably what are most helpful for me. If your institution uses the ERP solution that many schools use, there is a “community” area on their support site that allows you to follow & post on issues/ideas.

      Sites I find helpful:

      https://aprilcsims.wordpress.com/
      http://betwinx.com/
      https://www.utm.edu/staff/lholder/dba/
      https://asktom.oracle.com

      Some of them have not had updates in a while, but they are specific to the software/tools commonly used in HE. They offer good information on the basics/roots of the software. Any latest and greatest information can be found in new release notes on the specific software.

      I use a book by April Sims (she is a DBA in HE) that has really been helpful for real-world situations. It’s also reasonably priced. (No, I am not April! ;-) ) https://www.packtpub.com/big-data-and-business-intelligence/oracle-database-11g-%E2%80%93-underground-advice-database-administrators

      If your institution has the budget, try to attend conferences geared toward your ERP software. Again, if you use the most popular ERP software, that company has a big conference coming up in April. It feels too sales-y for me and I no longer attend. I find the CoHEsion conferences to be geared more toward the technical side. They are reasonably priced and offer useful tracks. http://cohesioncentral.org/index.php If you are out west, there may be another conference that would be closer to you. Look for user groups specific to your ERP software. I know Pennsylvania has an active one for our ERP.

      Hope this helps somewhat. Will check back later this weekend to see if you have any followup.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Thank you so much for all of these! I will check out all these links, I have used asktom before when looking for solutions to certain things. We’re a Peoplesoft school, however our main SIS is managed by a separate group, and my team is more for all the other reporting and operational databases, so we have a big mix of databases.

  175. Comfortable Lawyer*

    How unprofessional is it to sit cross-legged (i.e., criss cross applesauce) at work? For reference: I’m a lawyer (senior associate) in Midwest BigLaw. I’m short. My feet are often tingly/uncomfortable, which is exacerbated by a medication I take. I have a footrest, but it doesn’t feel like enough.

    Other background: I have an office. My door is typically open and my desk shows my legs. I realized I sit cross-legged in a lot of situations, including group meetings, out to dinner with friends, etc. I successfully resist the urge in client meetings/pitches, but often tuck one foot onto the chair and under my other leg.

    1. fposte*

      My take is that it is unprofessional and that it can still be preferable to the alternative. I do it because I really don’t have any choice post-back surgery, but I know a lot of people really don’t like feet on shared chairs. I would say that you want to minimize the visual profile of your feet–don’t fiddle with your shoes or the feet beneath them, and for meetings outside of my usual staff I bring in a big ol’ box for a footrest rather than pulling my feet up.

    2. Elizabeth H.*

      I think it’s rather unprofessional but I do it sometimes at work (especially late in the day/when few people are around) because my position and workplace doesn’t require that I project extreme professionalism at all time. I don’t do it in meetings where I’m on view. I will do it out to dinner with friends, I wouldn’t do it at Per Se probably but would when I’m with people I’m comfortable with. In meetings I will sit on one of my feet like you describe. If I had my own office, I would probably sit cross legged whenever I felt like it but would put my feet on the floor when someone came to my office to talk.

    3. Fabulous*

      I don’t generally sit cross legged, but I sit often with one leg under me. But I’m not in a conservative office environment and my legs are covered by my desk…

    4. Stormy*

      I’m in a cubicle so nobody can see, and I do it all the time at my desk. Never in a meeting, though.

  176. RunnerGirl*

    Hi All,

    Me again!

    This time with good news! I just accepted a job offer!!! YAYYYYYY I will get to do accounts receivable and accounts payable. That will be a good step forward in my career because I can do half of the job easily but I can learn new things too.

    I start in a week, so it’ll be nice to have a week to decompress from the job search.

    Thanks everyone!

  177. Amadeo*

    Trying to gather my thoughts so that my uncle doesn’t want to plant me in a field someplace when I ask him for tax help. Making and selling stuff is fun, but I can’t really wait until I can think about retaining an accountant. I hate numbers.

      1. Amadeo*

        Fortunately Craftybase has several reports, including schedule C guidance and I think I’ve got everything entered. I’ve downloaded and saved all the ones that seem relevant and I think I’m going to make him walk me through doing them. Surely there’s no reason I can’t do it on my own in Turbotax next year.

  178. SEEKING TRAINING*

    I was random reading old posts and found this one. I really liked this reply and wanted suggestions on how to train someone for these skills?
    https://www.askamanager.org/2014/04/talk-about-your-job-ask-about-other-peoples-jobs.html

    1. Dir IT PMO (Coelura)April 15, 2014 at 2:04 pm
    The ability to adapt to rapid change. Doing the right thing (or at least advocating for it) even when it’s outside the standard. Ability to communicate at all levels of the organization and to build collaboration across multi-functional teams. Understanding process, willingness to follow process, but not married to process. A solid understanding of project and corporate financials – go to a finance for non-finance professional course if you can! Someone who can embrace change and help others to do so as well. Learn to see the big picture while still managing the details.
    Those are some of the most key ones.

  179. Stranger than fiction*

    Anyone else in California know if AB 168 (salary privacy act) is official? I can’t find anything on the web after October, when Governor Brown approved it.

    2. CatCat*

      Yep, should be. Legislation goes into effect January 1 of the following year it is enacted unless the legislation itself specifies some alternate date. AB 168 does not specify any alternate date. Since it was enacted in 2017, it went into effect January 1, 2018.

  180. I'm Not Phyllis*

    Do you ever feel like you’re just not doing a great job? I get positive feedback from my boss and others I work with but sometimes I feel like a lot of that is undeserved. I wouldn’t classify it as imposter syndrome necessarily because I don’t feel like I’m in over my head and I think I’m 100% qualified for and able to do this job well … I just don’t really feel like I am. Does that make sense? I’m an executive assistant and I often question whether I’m providing enough support to my CEO. Granted, he doesn’t complain and he tells me all the time I’m doing a great job, but I still feel like in some ways he provides more support to me then I do to him.

    1. miyeritari*

      I know you said “it’s not imposter syndrome,” but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck … well, maybe it’s a duck and you’ve just never seen such a weird looking duck before.

    2. Reba*

      Yes, I recognize this. For me it was mild depression (aka dysthymia).

      Imposter syndrome is not really something I’ve ever struggled with. But when I was in college (and possibly late high school) I just lacked satisfaction with the work that I did. I didn’t struggle to complete work, and I *knew* objectively that it was good (I got good grades, won scholarships, I was an art student and I could look at my work and compare it to my peers and know that it was good) but I just didn’t *feel* good about it. Even now it’s hard to articulate what that was like. It wasn’t low self-esteem, I wasn’t more than normal level of stressed. I just felt apathy or discontentment towards my own work, like I was in a negative fog.

      Eventually I sought treatment, went on SSRIs briefly, and spent time in therapy talking about locus of control, self-compassion, and setting goals to recognize and support good things in my life.

      Good luck Not Phyllis!

  181. Anonymous Jobseeker*

    I am afraid my former boss is avoiding reference requests. She has given me a reference in the past but is not responding to me or my prospective employer. Since my current employer doesn’t know I’m looking I can’t ask my current manager. So I’m screwed if she happens to be in an usually passive agressive mood. She’s around just not responding. So frustrating!

    1. Julianne*

      Ohhh, that’s rough. I am considering a job search right now and this situation is one I worry about, since I’m on my second job out of school (graduated in 2013) and would not want my current job to know about my search. I wish I had some sure-fire advice for you, but all I can say is that I hope for the best for you!

      1. Anonymous Jobseeker*

        I have been in the workforce much longer, but when they ask for manager references, it’s still difficult. I was at my last job 7 years, and she was my manager for 5 years. The next people in line behind her aren’t that recent. I have several recent peer colleagues who will give references, but she’s the only manager available who’s worked with me in this decade. I hope I am being overly anxious, but I also know how she operates because I worked for her so long!

    2. Anon anon anon*

      I also lack references. It’s one of the things that’s holding me back as well. I don’t have any advice, but it seems like a common situation to be in.

  182. Icklebicklebits*

    I’m thinking seriously of moving out of the state I love for a neighboring state and a job that is the next step up and I am FREAKING OUT. I love my state and my job is okay right now and there’s no guarantee that I’ll love the next job but I’m dead ending it here and kind of spinning my wheels and it’s not that far away but I’m still FREAKING OUT. It’s big city and big business which is something I’ve done and been okay with but not for years. Speak solace to me, friends!

    1. miyeritari*

      i can’t say much about the job situation, but if you’re moving to a big city there’s something for EVERYONE. you will definitely find a group of people in the city that you adore – that’s the best part!

    2. Anon anon anon*

      You don’t have to decide right away. Take things one step at a time. Apply for the job(s). Get to the interview stage. Go there. Check out the area. Ask questions. If you like it but aren’t 100% committed, put your stuff in storage, get a month to month lease, and try to come up with a backup plan so you can leave if it’s not working out. But if it interests you, I say go ahead and try it. It could be a really good thing.

  183. It's all Fun and Dev*

    I need some advice on making the best of a bad situation. Long story short, I’m 7 months into a job I like but in a location my partner and I hate. I recently wrote in to Alison about the work-related stuff so I’ll leave that aside for now, but I could use some advice on how to find small bits of happiness in a place you don’t like. We live in a tiny, insular town, we haven’t been able to make any friends, and it seems like my partner and I are caught in the middle between recent grads who want to drink every weekend, and older people with multiple kids. Plus, the only job he could find here in in the service industry, which means he works nights and doesn’t have a regular schedule that would allow him to volunteer or join an activity. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think whatever joy you can get, get. I lived for a year in a place my spouse and I disliked, and we are very glad we moved away, but there are still things we miss about it… not enough to move back, but little things. Is there any physical beauty? Parks? Trees? Mountains? It’s tiny, but is there one restaurant you like to eat at? Are there even things you and your partner can have a little joy from making fun of?

  184. Sockster*

    Hello all!

    I would love some career advice. I am early in my career, and currently work as an Admin Assistant. My dream job is kinda specific- let’s say, I want to do Marketing, but only for a business that specializes in chocolate teapots. Today, I found a job opening for a full time job in the marketing department of a chocolate teapot company! The job is as an Admin Assistant. Is it worth applying for this job (and, potentially, accepting) if I know that I don’t want to do admin work long-term? I’d essentially be taking this job for the sake of resume building, and with the hope that I could advance to a position in the department doing what I actually want to do.
    If this is a good idea, to what extent could I mention that in the interview? I don’t want them to think that I’d be ready to move on as soon as I start, but I would love to know whether I’d be able to get Marketing experience in this role, or if others in the role had been able to move up in the department.

    1. H.C.*

      You can ask about the mix of general admin vs marketing-specific support work you’ll be doing in the role, as well as where previous folks in this role have gone to (to give you a better idea of whether they have been moved into marketing roles vs further up the admin track).

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      If you’re applying for an admin job it won’t go down too well if you’re clear that you actually want to do something else. But you can focus on your enthusiasm for working in and learning about that field.

    3. goodluck!*

      I think if you want to be in marketing, you should be looking for jobs in marketing and eventually try to make the switch to chocolate teapots. I’d assume you would enjoy other marketing positions, since you’ve got an interest in marketing? In some places it’s not unknown for admins to move up (no idea about marketing in particular), but it’s not a guarantee, especially if you don’t have the experience they’re actually looking for.

      If you decide to apply, I wouldn’t mention that you actually want another job. Instead just ask about possible growth within the company. “What are the opportunities for growth in this role? Do people ever move into other departments, such as marketing or ?” But as said, it seems like you would be better off actually gaining work experience in marketing, as opposed to spending more time as an admin.

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      While it is 100% possible to start as an admin and move up in the company (that happened to me literally this week!), it’s not something you can plan for. When I was hired to be a receptionist, I was told that I’d likely be moved wherever the next opening was. I picked up on the business operations pretty quickly, and they realistically knew it would be easier to get a new receptionist and move me up, than to keep me where I was and roll the dice with new applicants. Even with all of that assurance, I still didn’t get to pick my new position or department. They gave me the first appropriate opening that popped up.

      I agree with the others: If you want to work in marketing, apply for marketing jobs. You could get this admin job and be so great at it that you’re pulled in to fill a hole in a different department at the teapot company. And yeah, there’s no appropriate way to say, “I’m only taking this admin job because I really want a different job.”

  185. Goya de la Mancha*

    Interview of my nightmares:

    I have battled generalized anxiety disorder for 10+ years. Between meds and other coping mechanisms, it’s generally under control. I had an interview on Monday – I wasn’t feeling overly anxious for, so I didnt take medication beforehand. Big. Mistake. I ended up having to walk out of the interview 3 times due to oncoming panic attacks! :( the interviewers were both VERY kind – even though we all pretty much knew that I blew my shot. They even offered to reschedule, which wouldn’t have helped – just prolongs the anxiety. 4 days later – I’ve been home with a stomach bug all week and I get the “non-offer” email. Seems they (small office) were out sick too for the week- So now i feel bad that one of us got the others sick! I am now non-anxious about bombing the interview and not getting the job. I keep telling myself I would have not enjoyed it (felt my eyes glazing over a bit as they were showing me some of the programs) and that I actually might not have been qualified for it. But i’ll never know if that’s the true gut feeling – or just my anxiety lying to me again. One day I’ll get there….*sigh*

    1. nep*

      You will get there.
      Don’t be stressed about the illness — bugs go around and who knows who passed it to whom.
      There will be a job where your eyes won’t glaze over and you’ll feel it’s a great fit.
      You got past this experience. I hope you’ll be able to just look ahead, continue putting those applications out, and not hold yourself back because of this interview. In the job search, we’re learning every step of the way.
      Way to stay strong. It will happen. Keep us posted.

  186. Wing.groove*

    After nearly a year of unemployment and a decision to totally change career paths, I have an in person interview lined up! This is my first since June of last year (the decision to change paths happened in August). I’m so excited-the company is great and the pay would be way more than I used to make! Wish me luck!

    1. Gilmore67*

      Good Luck !! Great to hear you are not afraid to go outside your normal area of job stuff. I finally did that, getting out of customer service and going into something completely different.

      I have been doing other things, mostly all in the secretary/office admin stuff for years now and do not regret my changing at all.

  187. Bobstinacy*

    I hate job searching so much, I’ve now hit the point where people don’t want to hire me because I have too much experience.

    I’m so glad I spent the last decade relentlessly pursuing my career. Totally worth it.

    Someone gently stroke my hair and tell me it’s going to be okay.

    1. Effie, who is living her life, and hoping life's rollercoaster stops soon*

      There, there. It’s going to be okay.

  188. M*

    Does anyone have good suggestions for new managers about how to stock a new office for maximum usability and colleague friendliness. I have been working at my current organization for 4 years in an organization-wide leadership position but without managerial responsibilities. I have just been selected to leave my current position to take over as manager for one of the larger and most influential teams in our organization. I do have plenty of management experience at previous organizations but my current organization is one of the top in the field and this team is about 4 times larger than any I’ve managed previously, so it feels like a big step.

    I’m excited to take this on and I’ve been an avid reader of this blog for years so I feel like I either have good ideas about how to approach the job. As I’m moving into my new office, I’m feeling like I want to make sure the office itself is well-stocked both for my own productivity and to feel welcoming and useful to my team. Does anybody have ideas for items any good manager might have on hand besides my standard computer, hand sanitizer, lotion, and mints? Our company provides tissues and clorox wipes for each desk, a big fancy coffee station, and the bathrooms are stocked with free sanitary products and the like. What else do I need? Are there things you’ve seen managers have available that you thought were great to have around? I looked online at some ‘things you should buy for your office’ lists and there were a lot of cute rubber band containers. Does anyone actually use rubber bands? Anyway- before I got into a rubber-band induced downward spiral, I thought I’d ask the good folk of AAM.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I don’t use rubber bands much, let alone keep them in containers!

      I like post-its though. Especially the nice bright neon ones.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I gave this some thought, and while it might sound kind of odd, I would like to suggest that taking some time to think about your communication style might help you figure out what kind of supplies you want to make available. (I’m also not completely clear whether you’re talking about your *own* office’s supplies for you, yourself, to use, or whether you’re talking about for your direct reports’ use, so I’m coming at this from your direct reports’ point-of-view.)

      As a thought experiment, say you’ve called someone to your office, and the person arrives w/o a pad of paper and a pen. Depending on what you’re meeting about, would that surprise you? If it would, why? What supply or supplies should a direct report bring to a meeting with you? For me, that would be at least one of those steno pads and a pen. Why? B/c even if my direct report (DR) had an amazing memory and didn’t need to take notes, I would still want him/her to bring a pad and pen in case I needed to write something down: a future to-do reminder for myself, a note for DR to deliver to someone else, a hand-drawn map for DR to use to find that other person in the building.

      Do you prefer to see handwritten notes to you on documents directly, or do you prefer post-it-type notes instead to keep the document clean? (I know we’re mostly paperless these days, but this could be applicable both to real paper docs as well as soft-copy docs.)

      Framing your supply needs through the lens of communication preferences is one way to help you determine this. Also, if you can afford to buy the gel pens (multiple colors), please do.

    4. Amtelope*

      Frequently in demand in my office: good pens, legal pads or other notebooks, post-its, small binder clips (we seem to have plenty of enormous ones, but few of the small ones for stacks of paper just too large to staple). Also invest in a big, serious-business stapler if the office doesn’t have one.

    5. Kerr*

      Do you mean supplies in your own personal office, or for your entire team? If you have an admin in your current office, ask them for tips before you move on!

      Stuff we always need to restock:
      Post-Its in several colors and sizes
      The good pens, in basic black or blue and red
      No, seriously, get the good pens
      Pens in other colors are cool
      The good highlighters
      Paper clips, binder clips, good staplers and staples, lined notepads, notepad books, Sharpies, file folders (so many, depends on what you need). Label makers FTW. If you can afford it, allowing people to pick out their own desk supplies (with a price limit) from your office supplier is nice. Suppliers often have cute desk supplies that are the same price as the standard black and gray ones.

  189. Anon here again*

    Maybe I’ve just worked in bad places, but are most offices clique-y, gossipy, and overall toxic? Mine is an open environment and there is no privacy, lots of gossiping/trash talk, etc. Any thoughts?

    1. Jessen*

      Don’t know about other places, but we had one very gossipy/toxic coworker at my office, and several of us complained to our manager. She was pretty firmly reined in, as well as the rest of the office making it clear that they were not interested.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      I think that most offices (besides very small ones) are bound to have at least one or two people who fancy themselves savvy schemers. At my current job, everyone mostly gets along but there can still sometimes be an undertone of competition and whatnot. That’s not always avoidable when you have multiple employees and only one managerial opening, or whatever.

    4. BatteryB*

      I’ve been lucky enough to have never encountered that in over 33 years of working. I’ve also never had to deal with the stereotype of women not being to work together. Howev, I know that it has happened to other people that I’m close to.

  190. Jessen*

    So I’m looking for a job with the following characteristics:

    – Allowed to work in my pajamas
    – Free supply of suitable alcoholic beverages
    – Permission to tell customers exactly what I think of them
    – Breaks to pet/play with my cat whenever

    Anyone know of a suitable career?

    1. Mephyle*

      Freelancer working at home. At least for 1, 2, and 4. To be able to do 3 as well, you have to have more clients than you can handle.

          1. Jessen*

            I think it’s called “trust fund.” I haven’t figured out how to get one of those.

            In all seriousness, I’m adjusting to this idea that I have a thing called paid vacation, and I totally can decide I just want a week off.

  191. Anono-me*

    Does anyone have any experience with time clocks that use a fingerprint instead of a timecard? How well did they work? Did cold or heat impact how they worked?

    (A relative’s workplace is talking about switching to fingerprint time clocks.)

    Thanks

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I have not heard of issues with heat or cold, but apparently those sensors can have a difficult time picking up the fingerprints of certain ethnicities. I don’t know the reason behind this, but I had a client tell me that it was a problem they ran into. So depending on where the workplace is and what the ethnic make up of the workforce is, it may not end up working out perfectly.

      There are plenty of options that use a numerical code instead of a time card for identification though.

    2. misspiggy*

      A not-insignificant number of people lose their fingerprints with time, often related to certain health conditions. So there will need to be a workaround for people in that category.

    3. Krista*

      We had fingerprint time clocks at my last job. The time clocks were inside, so we never had an issue with changes in temperature, although some times the time clock couldn’t read the fingerprint if the person’s finger was too cold. Most people didn’t have any problems using them. Occasionally someone’s fingerprints would be too faint, and I would have to arrange for them to use a pin number.
      I was grossed out once or twice when employees had difficulties getting their print accepted, and a well known trick was to wipe behind the ear to pick up the oil which would help the clock read the fingerprint. Sometimes they would blow on their fingertips. I really wondered how many germs were on the scanner.

    5. Chris*

      A place I worked at switched to fingerprint readers. They were picky to things like sweat, lotion, or antibacterial hand wipes before using the reader. New scars or blemishes would need your finger re-scanned or switched.
      The heat and cold didn’t seem to bother them at all but they didn’t record punches internally like the old badge reader, so when we lost power everyone had to revert to paper punch tracking.

      And pretty gross but some people thought that licking their finger before scanning made it work better…

  192. AnonyNewb*

    When you’re job hunting while currently employed, and setting up interviews, is it unreasonable to ask for interviews to be set up either A) right away in the morning, B) at the end of the day (say 3pm and on), or C) within the general lunch time (11am-1pm)? I’ve found that most of my interviews that I’ve gotten end up in the middle of the morning or afternoon, which is a very strange time to be leaving work for an hour or so – I’m getting the feeling that people are getting suspicious, and I’m obviously trying to keep my job hunt quiet.

    This is my first time dealing with this specific situation, and I want to make sure that I’m handling it properly.

    Thanks for any advice!!! I’m so glad I found this blog!

    1. Simone R*

      Not sure about asking the interviewers, but if its not possible to schedule at a different time, could you take the whole morning or afternoon off?

      1. AnonyNewb*

        I have done that in the past, but that’s actually one of the things that has made my manager kind of suspicious (they’ve said so outright before). Hence why I’m here asking my question!

        If the general consensus is to not ask that, or if none of those times work, then obviously I just have to deal with it, but I thought I would see if this was a bad idea or not first!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I don’t think it’s a bad idea to ask. Most recruiters/HR folks will understand that you are trying to keep your search on the down low. As long as you’re flexible if they can’t accommodate you, it shouldn’t be a problem.

    2. Goodluck!*

      I think it could easily be framed as your availability, instead of explaining that you’re trying to keep it on the down low. example: “Great, I’m excited to interview! Due to my current work schedule, I am available to interview at either the beginning or end of day, as well as during my lunch.”

      1. Sam Foster*

        Exactly this. This has always been my approach and it has been well received. People understand OR they demonstrate that it isn’t a place you should be trying to work at.

    3. Anon anon anon*

      I think it’s not only a reasonable thing to ask for but it sends the message that you value your current employer’s needs and that they value you in return. And, as other commenters have suggested, I would frame it as your availability.

    4. MissDissplaced*

      It’s very normal to ask if they can try to schedule you for those times!
      I personally like to ask for an 8am if they have an early slot to minimize my time away from work.
      You won’t always be able to get that of course, but most places understand why you’re asking.

  193. Confused*

    So I could really use some insight and thoughts on this:

    I work in a pretty relaxed and social office. However, there are some pretty obvious social groups within my office. I tend to hang out most with a group of guys (I am a woman) around my age (mid/late 20s). I just get along really well with them and have a lot in common with them. We tend to hang out as a group outside of work.

    Earlier this week one of them invited a few of us out this weekend. I am the only one going. This has me thinking a lot about optics. Does it look bad that I am hanging out one on one with my male coworker on the weekend? And does it look bad that I spend much of my socializing time with the guys? I do get along with everyone in my office and consider them all friends but there is an obvious bias here.

    Presumably, what I do outside of the office in my social life shouldn’t affect my work. In fact, it definitely does not. Nobody would worry about an entirely same sex duo or group hanging out on the weekend. So this shouldn’t matter, right? But I know the world doesn’t often work that way, and I wouldn’t want my boss to think less of me for something innocent.

    And just to complicate things, even though this hangout is completely platonic, I know for a fact that people like to tease this coworker for his crush on me. And I admit I have a bit of a crush on him too (although no one has ever indicated that they know about this). We’ve never discussed this, and I don’t think that either of us even want to cross that line since we are, first and foremost, coworkers and friends.

    Since he invited several people, everyone is going to know we hung out this weekend. I have no idea how to approach it come Monday.

    Am I overthinking this? Or am I really getting in over my head here? Is all the time I’m spending with my male colleagues really going to affect me professionally?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      You’re overthinking it. One of my closer work friends is a guy. We sit near each other. We have that kind of quick sparring verbal rapport, and we have a lot of office-friendly interests in common (coffee, the Foo Fighters). There’s an older busybody who teases us but everyone knows she’s just being weird. I’m nearly 10 years older than him and honestly not attracted to him. We tell jokes all day and that’s it.

      That said, I think the reason you’re overthinking it is because you actually do want to date this guy. You’re worried about it being inappropriate because it really might be; when two people with mutual crushes hang out one-on-one, that’s more or less a date. Don’t go out with him, even platonically, unless you’re emotionally ready to deal with everything that comes with going out on a half-date with a coworker.

      2. Confused*

        Thank you. I really think you’ve hit the nail on the head here.

        I don’t think I can cancel our plans now but he did let me know he’s invited some of his friends so at least it isn’t just the two of us anymore. I will definitely need to examine my emotions and approach this a lot more cautiously into the future.

    2. Goodluck!*

      I mean, if everyone knows it’ll be only you and him hanging out, and you don’t want the gossip… you shouldn’t. And well, if two people both have crushes on each other, and they hang out alone… that’s pretty close to a date. There’s nothing wrong with hanging out with male colleagues outside of work, but the complications I just mentioned are relevant. Because in this case, it isn’t “the time I’m spending with my male colleagues” it’s “the time I’m spending alone with one male colleague who I’ve got a mutual crush with.” You shouldn’t hang out with him alone unless you’re willing to deal with all the complications of dating a coworker… because I don’t see how two people who are crushing on each other hanging out alone couldn’t end up being a date.

    3. Anon for this one!*

      I was fully prepared to say you’re overthinking it until I reached the part about you having a crush on him (and probably vice versa.) I had a situation like this at work once, but minus the teasing and plus…this is going to make me sound bad…I was married, so that’s probably why no one suspected the crush thing (reality, married people get crushes sometimes too!) But what I learned was that if you have an inappropriate crush, hanging out with the person is pretty much the worst thing you can do. I had to take some professional distance where I came up with excuses to not do work hangouts for awhile, and I avoided friendly non-work chats between just the two of us – not in an obvious manner, I was still friendly, just had a few months that I claimed were crazy busy to get out of this stuff until the crush died.

      Since it does sound like you can’t get out of the one you already agreed to (although really, I think you could – people have emergencies pop up that lead to canceled plans sometime), my other piece of advice would be not to have any alcohol involved in your plans. Like if you go out for food, stick to water/pop/whatever.

    4. Friday*

      I think that if it’s mutual and respectful, it’s fine if it’s a date! Many people meet their spouses at work – I did. Yes things can get messy if you date and break up, but life is messy, people usually try to be professional at work, and people also usually don’t stay at one job forever.

  194. Anon anon anon*

    I’ve been a 1099er for about 3 years now. I love it. The only downside is the financial part, which is a big issue. I’m looking for a regular W-2 type of job, but I’m also working on making my business more profitable. It’s been a good week. I had been having some health issues that limited the amount of time I could work, but that started to get better. Being in less pain, I have more energy and a more positive outlook. My friends really want me to find a good, safe office job. And maybe I’ll find a good one. But I also have a growing business in which I get to do something I genuinely enjoy while also making money. What could be better? I say if it’s taking off, let it grow.

  195. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment support thread – How’s it going for anyone who is unemployed and looking for work? Feel free to post away here.

    My updates: Did not get the temp job that I interviewed for last week though the interview went well. Still looking for other things, revamping my resume, etc. I am trying to keep my head up high. I’ve never been unemployed/underemployed for this long (well over a year) and really want to start working again soon.

    How’s it going for others who are unemployed or underemployed?

    1. nep*

      Thanks for this.
      I’ve yet to get to the phone-interview / -screen stage. I continue to search and work on the resume and cover letter. Just yesterday I saw a couple of listings that encourage me — I’ll be working on those applications this weekend.
      As much as I want to throw my hands up, of course I must keep working at it. After so long, now it’s tough even to envision getting interviews, actually getting an offer, and starting a new job — it just all seems so distant and almost impossible. But that’s just the mind and I’ve got to just let those thoughts go. Bottom line is I need a job, so I keep at it. All I can do.
      All the best to you, AnonAndOn — and everyone who’s searching.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      I don’t make a good impression on paper. My life has been kind of unusual and it’s taken a toll on my resume. I do better with talking to people in person. But I haven’t had the time or money to get out and network. I literally spend all of my time working, and I’m not making enough to cover the bills.

      So I’m working on increasing my income, and being friendlier to everyone I meet while working. You never know who knows who and what might lead where. That said, I’m kind of scarred from bad experiences as an employee. I’m really hoping I can just make my own way. Or find someone to work for who’s especially nice.

    3. Database Geek*

      Still looking and hoping to hear back from the companies I had contacted in December now that the holidays are over… including the one I had a second round interview with … would be nice to know one way or another. I ended up with one interview this week with one of the other companies… now to see if anyone else contacts me. Also hoping there are more opportunities to apply for soon.

      On another note – I’m dusting off my web design skills and trying to figure out what if anything I can do with them. I would prefer not to work freelance (to many details I have to worry about that I would rather not) but there don’t appear to be other opportunities at the moment.

  196. Anxa*

    So I haven’t commented in a while (I usually can’t stay on this site for more than a few minutes without it crashing anymore)…. but I’m back.

    I have had what appears to be a good interview. Some may recognize me and remember that I’ve been pretty much chronically underemployed since college.

    I know it’s just an interview, but a I have a sinking feeling that it went well and I could very well have a job offer for a job with a decent salary (nothing crazy, but for me it’s huge) that’s full-time. I have worked 9 years for an opportunity like this, but I just don’t see myself being any good at the job. Furthermore, I had started a training program for another field (logically it makes no sense to stay in school if I have a job offer (already have a BS), but I think I have career plan whiplash).

    I’m 31, have a B.S., and several false starts. The commute for this job wouldn’t be great (I thought it was at he main location when I applied, which is transit accessible).

    My SO is an early career scientist. I don’t know if we’ll be moving in September, staying 1 more year, or if we could be putting roots down here. Also, we are unmarried.

    There are so many ways I could work around my class schedule in theory, but if this job offer comes up soon it will too late.

    I don’t know what my gut is saying.

    I don’t know if I’m just afraid of finally ‘succeeding.’

    I just know I’m desperate to break through that 20K salary ceiling, but I’m dreading getting this job offer.

    I feel like I’m too old to be picky at this point, and too old not to be.

    I’m so angry at myself for taking classes because now it’s complicating things so much. Without that, I’d feel more like I had to take this job.

    1. miyeritari*

      Some of these things you’ll have to work through yourself or with your SO. If he needs to move for his job, what does that mean for your career and your relationship? That’s a hard question. How can you make this commute work? That’s a hard question.

      However.

      Remember that you getting this job is a TWO-WAY street. If this employer is going through the process of interviewing you, maybe interviewing you again, maybe offering you a contract – that means THEY think you are qualified for this job. And that is just as (if not MORE ) important than you thinking you’re qualified. They clearly see in you ability for growth and success (assuming they are a good employer.) They’re not just farting around wasting time on people that won’t be a good fit for the posistion. They see in you the capability to succeed!

      Also, it sounds a little like your chronic underemployment has been super hard on you. Which is what one would expect! But based on the tone of this comment, it sounds like you’ve fallen into this pit and it’s a struggle to get up. And that’s fair. Getting up is a challenge. Overcoming your bad shit to start on a good path is hard. Inertia and being hard on yourself is easy. But for personal growth, you need to engage those struggles. If you want to move from underemployed to well-employed, you need to engage with that barrier, embrace that challenge, and move forward into a new life and career.

      I hope this helps. Go get it!

    2. Gala apple*

      Can you just give it a chance? One week, reflect. Two weeks, reflect.

      You aren’t any less of a person than someone who’s been working FT office gigs for 10 years.

  198. always with the different names*

    I’m in a long-term temp admin position (it’s intended to be made a permanent position at some point, and I’ve been here for six months), which I’m overqualified for. I hate most of my work because my tasks are boring, and I’m not great at admin but I do love the work that the team itself is doing. I love the team I work with, and there is a small chance that I could get a position in the team doing something more appropriate for my qualifications and skillset, but it’s a small chance. There have been a few small things that have happened that make me think the wheels might be in motion for a better position, but I’m a chronic over thinker so I’m trying not to give any power to those things. Despite the minute chance, it’s hard for me to keep perspective and balance my desire (and need) to get a more appropriate position, and my love of my team and the work that they are doing. Any advice for keeping the two balanced and doing a job search when you don’t want to leave your team?

  199. Emily*

    Here’s one where I think my gut might be right but I want to check: I sent a speculative job application email to a firm back in September/October and interviewed with them a few days later, and they mentioned they were looking for someone in a role that I was looking for. I sent a thank you email that night and didn’t end up hearing anything further. I didn’t follow up because my house was broken into and I just didn’t have the time or energy to do so. I’ve now seen that they are advertising for the type of role I am looking for. Two-three months is too soon to reapply, right?

    1. Book Lover*

      Just to clarify, at the time they didn’t have an opening advertised, but they still seemed interested, but then didn’t get back to you. Now there is a job advertised that would work for you? I would send in an application and comment on the prior contact in the cover letter.

      1. Emily*

        There was no opening that I was aware of, but they did respond to me and interview me – at which point it became clear they were looking to fill that type of job. I didn’t hear back after the interview. If I got a rejection I wouldn’t even think about reapplying, ‍♀️

  200. Anon anon anon*

    If you’re self employed and job hunting, what do you do about references?

    Also, please excuse the double post. I just thought of this question. Another also. I’m going to change my name to Triple Anon to avoid confusion with the other anon anon anons.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I ended up doing some volunteering and part-time work to get references as most of my freelance clients had never met me.

  201. Ryan*

    I have a rather odd and specific scenario that I’m hoping to get some advice on.

    I’ve been looking for a job for a few months now while I was employed. I unfortunately lost my job right before Christmas (I know, right?) but have had a few phone interviews so far. I’ve been being as vigilant as I can about updating my resume on the various job boards so there’s no confusion, but I think one of the phone interviewers I just had has an older resume of mine that indicates I’m still employed.

    I don’t have any intention of lying about it if the subject comes up, but what if it never does? If they never ask me “Why are you leaving your old job” or something like that, do I just never bring up the subject that I’m not actually employed?

    1. Book Lover*

      Don’t lie, but I agree, unless it is brought up, it would be a weird thing for you to interject. I would take an updated copy of your CV to an interview, to give to them if they don’t seem to have it in hand, though.

    2. MissDissplaced*

      I don’t think it’s a huge deal at all. If they have an older version you can always say there had been a change at the end of the year/holidays, etc., and now you have an updated resume for them.

  202. Handy nickname*

    Hello aamers! I am hoping to I’ve out of my parents’ house for the first time (I recently graduated from college and have a full time job) and welcoming any tips, and also what you wish you had known before making that first move.

    I’ll be moving to an apartment on my own (no roommates- it’s a fairly low cost of living area) and less than a half hour from my hometown where I work for now, so the friend situation will be fine, but welcoming all other practical/emotional /whatever advice! (And also any suggestions or n how to help me and my parents navigate all their complicated feelings about me leaving- I’m the first to go, although my sister is older, and it’s been hard for everyone). Thank you!

        1. Handy nickname*

          Aaand this is still the Friday job thread *facepalm* I’ll see you all in a couple of hours then

  203. Merci Dee*

    The company that I work for is headquartered in Korea, and upper management for our location is always shipped over from HQ for a few years. All department heads are Korean, and they rotate in and out on unpredictable schedules. We found out right after the holidays that our director, the CFO, was going back to Korea at the end of the month. Then we found out this Wednesday that – just kidding – he’s leaving this week. Yesterday was his last day, and it was pretty emotional. He came around to tell all of us goodbye shortly before 5:00, and he was trying so hard to keep it together. He’s been a really great grand-boss to me, and I hate to see him leave. Hopefully, the new guy will be just as wonderful.

    A note: our company is structured so that all main decisions come from HQ. Managers can only progress so far at HQ before they get sent to one of our global locations to manage. Once the managers are called back to HQ, they have many more opportunities for advancement. Assignments typically last 2 – 3 years, but this recent CFO had been here for 4.

  204. Mimmy*

    How do I answer the question “What do you want to do?” when you can’t put it into words?

    My job is going okay (except for yesterday….) – my students like me, I like them, and my coworkers are clearly passionate about what they do. But…I’m really getting burned out on the environment, and want to start looking to the future. However, I don’t want to be in a similar role or environment.

    People ask me about my job and if I like it – I say “ehh…it’s okay”. Then they may ask, “What do you want to do?” I know what’s in my heart, but I’ve always had trouble verbalizing that to others, and this time is no different. Should I focus on job titles or should I talk more about skills/interests/preferred work settings?

    One caveat: I am very prone to anxiety (generally no panic attacks–just abnormal nervousness when the schedule goes awry or if my supervisor is out), so I need to be very careful about my environment. Obviously I can’t just say “I have anxiety!”, but I feel like it needs to be indirectly mentioned. I also cannot drive.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      You know, I think it it’s completely up to you – you can answer this kind of question however you prefer. There’s no one right way to do it.

    2. Asperger Hare*

      I think I had a bit of a similar question up-thread where I was wondering how to explain e.g. in job interviews that my ‘plan for the future’ is just “find a job that I can manage with my Aspergers”. I had some good responses.

  205. Does It Matter*

    Hi,

    Do linkedin recommendations really matter much when you’re job searching?

    Do hiring managers really put a lot of weight in them?

    Currently, I do not have any linkedin recommendations, but if I do get a job offer, I am sure that my former managers can give me a positive review.

    Thanks,

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      No, not a bit. I don’t think anyone expects them to be fully candid evaluations, since they’re publicly visible. Any hiring manager worth her salt would much rather talk to references in confidence.

      1. Does It Matter*

        Thank you for your response,

        I also wanted to ask the same for Linkedin Skills Endorsements. Do they matter as much? Or can we just list skills without any endorsements and explain our our skill level during our interview?

          1. Does It Matter*

            Thank you for your response.

            I guess I shouldn’t get too hung up on recommendations and endorsements.

  206. Jayna*

    I had an interview yesterday and just like a recent post here at AAM, the interviewer told me mid-interview that “frankly, I don’t think you’d be a good fit for the job.” This was for Customer Support but she felt like I would be better for another role. She tried to get me to talk with someone else but she was busy. I was already feeling defeated and didn’t jump on the chance but now maybe I should have? Or would that have looked bad? So I have a few questions.

    – Since I had the interview on Friday morning, when do I send the thank you letter, especially when they’re off on Monday?
    – In my thank you letter, do I say something about getting another role at the company or getting in touch with that other person? I like the company, and would like to be part of it in any capacity, but I’m just worried that it’ll just look bad.
    – Should i just keep the focus on the job I initially applied for?

    1. zora*

      I think you are better off being totally honest!! I would personally say straight out “It seems like X role would not be the best fit, but I loved what i learned about the company, and i would be very interested in being considered for other roles. You mentioned Lucinda Knowles, I would love to talk to her more about the other role if that is possible.”

      This doesn’t “look bad” at all! It is best for everyone if you are both honest about what would be good fits and what would not. This actually looks better than being too focused on a role that doesn’t seem like a good fit. Don’t feel defeated!! This is a good thing! if they really didn’t want you at all, they would probably have been up front about that. This could be an even better opportunity! Good luck!

      2. Jayna*

        Zora, thank you so much for your encouragement and advice!!!
        I sent the email last night and received a rejection this morning.
        I’m a little devastated because I put in so much into the whole interview process, but I guess I have to keep going.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Totally agree with zora here. For all you know, while your previous interviewer may have not found you to have the skills she was looking for, you may be the answer to the other manager’s prayers. They may have been trying to fill the other role for some time, or really want to fill it quickly with someone who meets most of their requirements. IMO nothing bad can come from this. I think candidates get referred for other roles quite often, so please don’t think this has anything to do with how you came across. Please consider pursuing this opportunity in your thank-you note. I might also consider asking your interviewer for the name of the “someone else” she was trying to get you in touch with, so that if you see an email from this person in your inbox, you’ll recognize it (rather than allowing the msg to go to your spam folder). And please let us know what you decided to do. Good luck!

      1. Jayna*

        Tabby, thank you! I did ask about the opportunity and sent the email last night, but I received a rejection letter this morning. It sucks, but I’m glad I tried it because I don’t think I ever would have otherwise had I not read your supportive message!

  207. Sybil Carpenter*

    Hi folks,

    I’m planning to quit my job on Monday — both the culture and the work make it a terrible fit for me and I think I would be better served by finishing my MA degree and then seeking a position in a non-profit or educational organization.

    But I have a dilemma: I don’t know who I should give my notice to.

    The company I work for is one of those ‘thinks its a start up’ kind of places with “no hierarchical structure” and little direction (this is a major reason for the lack of fit). The person who interviewed me (and who I spoke with throughout the hiring process) is also the person I work most closely with day-to-day and while their title includes the word “Manager”, that word doesn’t have anything to do with managing people at this company, because people are supposed to manage themselves. I’ve never been clear as to whether I directly report to the “Manager”, or to my “Team Lead” to whom the “Manager” reports. Do I tell the “Manager” I’m quitting first, or the “Team Lead”, or both at the same time?

    Have any of you been in a similar situation, where you were unclear about how to quit or didn’t know who the heck you actually report to?

    1. Kerr*

      I would lean towards telling them both at the same time, if you can call a meeting on short notice. Do you work with the “Team Lead” at least semi-regularly, or do they only really interact with the “Manager”? How much of a connection do you have with the “Team Lead” and how involved are they day-to-day? If the “Manager” de facto manages, titles aside, I’d probably tell them first, and ask if you should tell the “Team Lead” directly or if they should. TBH if they’re so non-hierarchal, it probably doesn’t matter.

      I feel your pain, since I have multiple supervisors. All of them nice people, but it’s confusing as heck and sometimes a PITA.

      1. Sybil Carpenter*

        Thanks for your reply!

        I interact with the Team Lead multiple times per week, so perhaps calling a meeting with both of them at the same time, as you suggest, is the best way to go.

        My only hesitation stems from the fact that the Manager has been perfectly good to me–the lack of training and unclear reporting structure aside. My resignation will impact her workload the most, and possibly interfere with some of her bigger plans for the year, so I feel like I might want to give her a heads up first. I think my resignation will come as a bit of a shock, since thus far my work has been received well and I’m relatively good at blending in with people I have nothing in common with.

  208. Sunshine and rainclouds*

    Do I have to shave my legs for work?

    I’m only a few weeks into a new company and I’m going to be part of a big business trip which will include many senior persons from the company, my boss, a lot of my peers, and… water activities. I also know that while the culture should be a bit laid back, that the backgrounds of a lot of persons who will be there will be very conservative and probably judgmental toward seeing unshaven legs. I’m not a fan of this ritual and haven’t shaved my legs years. I feel really self conscious however as this will be my first impression to a lot of persons who matter at work. Thoughts?

    1. HannahS*

      I think it totally depends on you. I wish I could tell you that people will be totally fine with it, but I think you’re right that a lot of people are still really judgmental of women who don’t shave their legs. So it’s all about whether or not you feel their judgment is going to hurt your career or upset you more than you dislike shaving. The other option is to not participate in the water activities, and show up in, like, a beach-y but covered-up outfit (maxi dress, linen pants) and lounge by the pool/on the boat.

  209. Sarah*

    My boyfriend worked at his most recent job from August until last Monday, when he was suddenly fired right after walking in the door. He was told that they “no longer needed his services,” but gave him no other explanations for why he was being let go. He is now applying for other jobs, but doesn’t want to include this last job on his resume because he does not have a explanation for why he was fired, and he is worried his former boss may speak negatively about him if he is asked for a recommendation. I think he should still include the job on his resume, because otherwise it will look like he hasn’t worked in a year. What do you all recommend?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think he is okay leaving it off, but if he is asked about the last four months probably he should say that he was dismissed suddenly with no explanation.

      It could be that particular employer has a rep for doing that and no one will ask your BF for details because they already know.

  210. a-no*

    bit late to the party but I am in need of some advice!
    My work has ‘promoted’ me to a newly created position with my skill set. They don’t know exactly what I am going to do nor do they know even a range of what they want to pay for it. They also want me to wait 6 months (on a probationary period… which I’ve already done when I started) before we evaluate if the job is working and the pay.
    How do i politely get them to understand that I no longer want this position unless they can get some clarity? This would be forfeiting all my job security (I am good at what I currently do and have taken on 3 times the amount of things anyone else has ever taken in this position) for too many unknowns. I think I could live with a 3 month trial with a small pay bump now and an estimated range for the end of 3 months (which would be adjusted on how the position ends up going) but have no clue how to word this.

    1. goodluck!*

      I think it might be helpful to bring it up not in terms of “this is for sure a no as is”, but instead just bring it up as something you’re wanting: “I’m excited about the new position (or tone this down if it’s not your thing at all), but it worries me to be doing all of this on such a long timeline. Would it be possible to do a shorter probationary period, since I already work here, and talk about the salary range now?”

      And then *if* that fails, be more clear – I don’t want this position/I need these details ironed out in order to stay in the position. But uh, in more polite language.

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