open thread – February 16-17, 2018

by Alison Green on February 16, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Beancat*

    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/what-if-i-cant-succeed-in-the-world-of-work.html#comments

    This thread – and a thread about not quitting without something else lined up – saved me this week. I have been hurting and struggling so much at this job and have been wondering if it’s me after a string of bad jobs. I was two steps from walking out because I feel desperate and hopeless. But now I have more hope – and I just have to re-evaluate myself to figure out what will be best for me. Thank you for this.

    1. GG Two shoes*

      Good luck Beancat. This site, the archives and the commentators are a trove of good ideas. Study up and get yourself a job you deserve!

    2. Em.*

      Me too! It was so many things I’ve been feeling for so long, and it helped me make the decision this week to both finally find a therapist (after putting it off for about six months) and to start looking for a different job. Hope is not lost!

    3. selina kyle*

      Best of luck! Really looking at what you want/can tolerate should lead to success. I’ll send good vibes your direction.

    5. Bea*

      You will find the right spot for you, I’m glad you’re found hope that makes these journeys so much easier.

  2. Meh*

    I will be attending my boss’s wedding next week. But I’m not sure what an appropriate wedding gift would be since I normally just give cash. There is no registry that I could find. Any suggestions? I’m not being forced to attend and actually want to go, but this has left me kind of stumped.

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      A gc to a kitchen or home store? Even if they have their house set up, they can use it to upgrade or get that one appliance they wanted.

    2. ZSD*

      Oh, that’s tricky. Are you at all crafty? If so, something homemade that you could put together quickly might be nice.
      If I were a boss, I wouldn’t want my reports to spend a large amount on my wedding. Maybe just a $20 gift card to their favorite lunch place?
      Are your co-workers attending as well? If so, perhaps you could go in on an office gift.

      6. Purplerains*

        The note could state that a donation has been made in your boss’ name or even the couple’s name, and not list an amount if you’re not sure about how much to spend.

      8. Artemesia*

        I just feel so strongly that this isn’t a gift. If someone invites this okay. If it is a memorial like for a funeral, OK. But me giving to charity is for me, it isn’t a gift.

        Almost anything would be better than that I think.

        1. Oilpress*

          Yeah, what the heck? A donation to charity is not a wedding gift.

          Just give the cash and make it a logical amount that you would give to a reasonable friend.

    4. Anony*

      I would say you should do what you normally do for a wedding. If other coworkers are also going and you are close, you can ask them what they plan to do if that will make you more comfortable.

      1. Ten*

        +1. If there are enough of you going, you might consider going in on something together. A bigger gift would be less weird coming from, say 5 or 6 of you.

    6. Snark*

      I would absolutely avoid a monetary gift, and honestly, I think giving a valuable gift is really fraught. Having been in this position before, I gifted the couple a few varieties of homemade hot sauce, because I really wanted to avoid the dynamic of giving my boss a gift with nontrivial monetary value.

      1. Koko*

        I like this approach. I’m not very handy with making things but I might do something similar with like, an inexpensive bottle of wine but it’s from the winery near where they grew up, or something like that, where I’m not really spending a lot of money but I’ve done something to give the gift additional non-monetary value so it doesn’t feel cheapskatey/lazy either.

    7. Cookie Monster*

      Is your boss a coffee drinker? If so, Blue Bottle does gift subscriptions. A three month gift of nice coffee would be thoughtful and probably not something they’d think of themselves/already have! https://bluebottlecoffee.com/at-home/gift

      (If they don’t like coffee, there are similar great options all over the internet for hot sauce, cheese, etc.)

    8. bluelyon*

      I default to waterford vases as wedding presents – they are always available at Bed, Bath & Beyond and there is almost always a coupon for them so I generally end up spending 50-60$.
      Your budget may vary but vases are generally not something people have a ton of and even those who don’t love flowers end up being gifted flowers 1-2x a year so something is good for that moment of “ahh where to put these”

        1. bluelyon*

          Yeah I think this is tough – I avoid any aspect of gifting up (and down frankly) in the office for holidays/birthdays etc.
          But I think weddings are a bit different, and for better or worse, come with a variety of societal expectations around gift giving. So it depends on the person and the relationships and how much it matters to each of them.
          I know I would steer away from something that is of a trivial value because it’s a big occasion and worth acknowledging. If I like someone enough to go to their wedding, I like them enough to get a nice gift – even if it’s a bit generic.

          1. Snark*

            That’s the thing, it’s something of an edge case – you always give a nice gift at a wedding, but you never give your boss a gift.

            1. bluelyon*

              True – and, if this were me, I’d make an exception to the no gifting up policy for the wedding assuming I attended. If I didn’t attend I’d probably write a nice note in a card and be done.
              But at the end of the day it’s a pretty personal call on whether or not to make that exception.

              1. Anony*

                The problem is that this is a social occasion instead of a work one. I would err on the side of following the rules for social occasions. If the boss feels uncomfortable, they can give the gift back saying that they appreciate it but cannot accept it. The alternative is risking looking like the jerk who went to a wedding without a gift.

                1. not so sweet*

                  “risking looking like the jerk who went to a wedding without a gift.”

                  In the places I’ve lived and learned wedding etiquette, it’s definitely not expected that all presents will be hand carried to the wedding reception. It’s preferred to send them ahead of time and allowed to send them later, and either choice simplifies things for the couple, compared to having to ensure that everything dropped off at the reception gets safely home afterwards and the cheques get deposited. Nobody assumes that I’m not giving a present, just because I’m empty handed at the reception.

                  That being said, if I were invited to a boss’s wedding, I would probably bring a card to the reception. If there were any hints at all about presents not being expected from us, I would follow the hints – otherwise I would either give them something small and handmade, or contribute to a small group present.

                  I also wouldn’t organize an office shower for a boss the way I might for a peer.

                2. Snark*

                  Well, no, there’s two alternatives, one being that they look like they don’t understand professional boundaries.

                  The way to avoid all these questions is a gift that’s thoughtful but has basically no monetary value, or a donation to their favorite charity in their name. I think erring on the side of treating your boss as a friend would be erring indeed.

                3. Snark*

                  And, also, no modern wedding expects people to show up with gifts in hand. It’s widely expected that gifts may come up to a year after the wedding, and with the prevalence of online registries, the giver may never phyically handle the gift anyway.

            2. A.*

              I think if you are so against giving a gift or you feel uncomfortable gifting up, then don’t go to the wedding. She isn’t required to attend. She is choosing to attend. If it was a coworker would you give a gift? I would give what you normally give.

              1. Oilpress*

                Exactly. If buying a gift is too awkward then going to the wedding is probably too awkward as well.

        2. many bells down*

          I guess it would depend on the type of company and the salary you get paid. A $50 gift falls into the category of “nice, but not expensive” to me. I would balk at a gift over $100, though.

        3. RB*

          Yes, perhaps a slightly cheaper version of the Waterford vase, or a pair of nice wineglasses, or a nice set of towels in white. It seems like people never buy the really practical things because they feel like they need to get something more impressive.

          1. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

            I think you should know your audience though! For example, none of the gifts you listed would have been practical or even useful for my husband & I. We’d have ended up having to return them, or regift/donate them if hat weren’t possible (Waterford vase won’t fit our decor, we rarely drink & not wine at all or even do anything where we’d serve it to others, I’ve never owned a white towel in my adult life & never will.)
            Why not a gift card? That’s easy, something any & everyone can use.

      3. Another Lawyer*

        I default to a Simon Pearce vase for the same reason. Gorgeous, timeless, goes with everything decor.

      4. anonny*

        I think this would depend on the cost of living in the area you live/work in and the type of work you do and how well you get paid. At this point in my life/career, I’d be very comfortable giving my boss a $50-100 wedding gift if I were going to her wedding. I’m not an hourly employee, but my rate of pay is equivalent to about $54/hour. And I totally love my boss; we have a very professional relationship but also an excellent personal rapport, so that feels like a really easy decision for me.

        If I went back in time and I was 21 again and my boss at the Gap I worked at in college invited me to his wedding, I made $7.50/hour back then so yeah, $50 for a vase for his wedding would’ve been WAY too much. I’d have felt obligated to get him something and not seem cheap, but $50-60 would’ve broke me back then and I’d have skipped meals and had to bum rides to work because I wouldn’t have gas money. And also, I didn’t really like the guy but I would’ve felt really obligated to go if he invited me and other coworkers. It would’ve been uncomfortable.

        I think the answer here isn’t going to be one size fits all. Depends on your financial comfort level, your relationship with your boss, etc. Go with your gut – do what is comfortable for you personally and financially! :)

    9. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      Is there a restaurant in the area that your boss likes? Maybe a gift certificate? Also, depending on your boss’ age he/she may not need the traditional wedding gifts. Is there a non-profit you could make a donation to on their behalf (maybe they’re really in to animals, so you could donate to the local animal shelter). Most places will provide you with something you can include in a card to signal your donation, or they will send a note to your boss separately.

    12. Fabulous*

      I’ve given a picnic basket before full of non-perishable goodies for a picnic. Especially good if there are kids too!

      1. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

        Or a cute basket with a movie night at home. My sister gave our family one for Christmas. She included popcorn, boxes of candy (concession style), a snuggly blanket for the couch, and she also included a gift certificate for 5 rentals from the local red box. It was a really fun gift and as her budget was really tight I think she paid $25 for the whole thing (including the basket – a bowl for the popcorn – and tissue paper she used to dress it up).

    13. H.C.*

      Can you contact anyone in the wedding party? You can check with them to see if there’s a registry somewhere or about the boss & soon-to-be-spouse’s gift preferences

    14. Mockingjay*

      Picture frames. Newlyweds need them for wedding photos. I gave them at my boss’s wedding. Pick a plain, classic style frame (silver is my go to) that blends with most decor.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Another good one. Between the wedding and honeymoon, they are about to have more photos to display.

      3. Irene Adler*

        Yes! Picture frames are the best gift when one doesn’t know what to get.
        They are not very expensive. You can’t go wrong with a “plain, classic” frame.

    15. E*

      Gift card to a restaurant your boss likes? Then they could treat themselves to a nice meal. Otherwise, I like the generic idea of something like a picture frame or vase.

    16. Meh*

      Thanks for all the great suggestions so far! I wasn’t even sure where to start and these are great ones to think about. While I like the gift cards/donation ideas, I actually have no idea which restaurants/charities my boss likes (we work on different campuses so don’t do a ton of chit-chatting). But the handmade gift, picnic basket, vase, or picture frames are ones that may just do the trick. Thanks again!

    17. Kit*

      Outside the box: you don’t have to give a gift! Bring a nice card with you. Not gifting up applies everywhere and they will receive plenty of gifts from people for whom the gift-giving dynamics are less weird.

      1. Safetykats*

        And – this is a really good demonstration of why it’s not necessarily a great idea to invite people from work (and particularly people who report to you) to your wedding. Unless, of course, you socialize enough with these people outside of work to consider them friends. Because friends know enough about you to have some idea what you might like as a wedding present.

        If others from work are also going, maybe they know the boss well enough to have am idea? Or maybe you can go together on a present so nobody spends an inappropriate amount?

        Although I think if I honestly didn’t know somebody well enough to figure out what might be a good present, I would probably just beg off and send a card.

      2. Penny Lane*

        I think that comes off as cheap. “I attended your wedding, but because I work together, I didn’t buy you anything.” Sometimes this board is just a little too precious about the no-gifting-up rule. I don’t think it’s as universal as what gets implied here.

        1. Ktelzbeth*

          I don’t know if it would even seem cheap, but that really depends on the people getting married. Plenty of people attended my wedding without giving gifts and that was okay with me. My thought process ran more toward, “I’m glad they got to be here and I didn’t have to get any more stuff.” I don’t know that there’s a great answer.

        2. Oilpress*

          Extremely cheap. If someone does this to their coworker then a negative reaction is almost a guarantee. Better to just skip the wedding than to skip the gift.

    18. designbot*

      One of my husband and I’d favorite gifts (from my coworkers at the time, funny enough) was a cutting board with our names etched/engraved on it. Something like: https://www.etsy.com/listing/285428763/personalized-cutting-board-engraved?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=personalized%20cutting%20board&ref=sr_gallery-1-4
      It’s pretty inexpensive to get one of these but the personalization makes it seem extra thoughtful and not cheap at all, which is great when not spending a lot on your boss is the goal.

    19. EngagedBoss*

      Can we flip the script and get some advice on what to say to your employees if you are the boss and are inviting your direct reports? I don’t want them to feel obligated but mentioning not giving a gift feels odd also.

      1. anonny*

        Just a shot in the dark, if it were me I’d probably mull this over a bunch and fine tune it before saying something, but at first thought maybe something to the effect of, “The lines are a little blurry around this issue so I just wanted to open the line of communication. I truly value our social relationship outside of work and want you to share in my special day, but I also want to be completely up front and let you know I don’t expect a gift from you. I don’t want you to feel awkward about accepting or declining this invitation, and I definitely don’t want you to worry about the weird gray area around giving gifts to your manager – I just hope you’re able to come enjoy our day with us!”

      2. Snark*

        I don’t think it’d be odd at all. I think it’d be a relief. “I’d love for you all to celebrate our special day with us, but as I’m your boss, giving and getting gifts has some baggage attached, so please do not consider yourself obligated.”

        1. Em Too*

          I’d be clearer. ‘Don’t feel obliged’ is what I’d say to friends. I’d say ‘please no gifts ‘ here.

    21. essEss*

      I have an embroidery machine and my usual fallback for a generic wedding gift is to get a set of plain white linen pillow cases and embroider their initials in decorative font with a silver metallic thread on them. Wrap them up with a nice ribbon bow.
      You can do something similar by getting an item from one of those stores in the mall that does engraving and have their monogram put on it, like a wedding photo frame, or a container to hold tea, or something like that.

    22. a*

      Going against the grain…I would give cash like you normally do. A wedding is (ideally) a one-time event. It’s a social occasion that you happen to be enjoying with coworkers. I think the gifting up rule applies to things like birthdays and holidays, things that would be acknowledged with some sort of office celebration. (Of course, I’m not a manager. But I am fairly cheap and totally opposed to exchanging gifts with coworkers.)

      The general rule where I grew up was that you gave enough cash to cover the cost of your dinner and that of your date, if you bring one.

    23. Adele*

      Are they going on a honeymoon? My boss went on a cruise and I contacted the cruise line and made a reservation for and deposited funds into their cruise account for the couple to have dinner in one of the really nice specialty restaurants. I had looked up the prices on line so made it enough for dinner with dessert, a glass of wine each, and a gratuity. I then put the what/where info in a lovely card and that is what I gave them. I assume it was enough money but if it fell short he never said anything. It was pricey but if others are going from your office, perhaps you could pool your resources.

      I am planning to do something similar for my nephew and his fiance, except in the city in which they will be honeymooning. Figuring out a cool restaurant and how to reserve and pay for it in Barcelona from the US is a challenge, so if anyone has knowledge or suggestions, pass them on!

      1. phyllis b*

        Wish I had known this when my daughter got married!! She and SIL went on a cruise and I gave her my credit card so they could do some fun stuff. Guess what? They wouldn’t accept it because her name wasn’t on it. :(

    24. FTW*

      First – is your boss from a culture where cash is typical? From experience, when there is no registry, this can be the case. If so, then give cash.

      Second – if that’s not the case, then give whatever you want! That nice vase or picture frame you might never buy for yourself are always good options.

    25. Epsilon Delta*

      Have you asked your boss if they have a registry?

      When I got married I set up a registry but didn’t tell people about it unless they asked, because we already had two houses-worth of stuff in one house.

      And when my coworkers asked I told them I didn’t really need a gift from them because they were already spending a vacation day to come to the wedding! (Friday wedding) (They did eventually weasel registry info out of me too)

      1. Viktoria*

        This has the added benefit that if your boss is uncomfortable with receiving a gift from you, asking about the registry will be the perfect moment for them to tell you that.

      2. Mephyle*

        Seconded. Even classical etiquette, which prescribes that people are not supposed to announce their registry details, allows that they can give the information if asked.

    27. FormerAsstNowBoss*

      I’ve never been to a boss’s wedding, but usually if there is no registry I’ll just do $50 gift card to Amazon.

      Depending on your salary/hourly wage. I would max out the money I’d spend at $50 or 4 hours (whichever is the lesser amount). Or see if you can score discount tickets to local show or event. One of my friends is the head costumer for a theater group. She’ll give me pairs of tickets every now and then…if you can get cheap/free tickets to something you can give a “date night” to your boss and his/her spouse.

      Hell, you don’t even have to give a gift. Just write a nice card with well wishes. Your boss, if not awful, won’t hold it against you not to give anything.

    28. Momofpeanut*

      Cut glass bowl is my go to gift; Macy’s usually has one in the 30-40 range. I got one as a wedding gift and found so many times it just dressed up my table.

    29. Anion*

      Aside from the vase/nice picture frame-type ideas, you could order them some stationery. A set of writing paper or large notecards/folded notecards that has a monogram of their combined initials at the top, says “Mr. and Mrs. Boss Name/Spouse Name” or “Boss and Bossspouse Lastname” or “Boss Spousename and Boss Name,” depending on how traditional they are. You can get a nice set online, nice white or ivory paper with various ink/engraving colors and envelopes, for a decent price.

      I know people rarely use actual paper anymore, but that’s one reason why I love giving this gift–because it’s something people generally won’t or don’t buy for themselves/even think of buying, it’s personalized, it “shows” that they are now a unit (so to speak), and it’s a luxury-type item, but it can come in handy. I love my personalized stationery and am always pleased when I can use it, even if it’s only to send a note to my kids’ school. Mine is Crane paper (I splurged), but you don’t have to go that high-end, and all the online stationery places will let you choose a variety of fonts/monogram styles/etc. and see what it will look like before you order–and a lot of them offer very fast shipping, too. I’ve done this for a few couples, and the response has always been really enthusiastic. Newly married couples tend to love anything that displays their now-married status (in my experience, at least).

      The bonus is that if you order enough of them, they can use it to write thank-you notes if they want. :-) And you can tell them exactly where you got it so they can resupply if they like or get other items that will look exactly the same.

      And I definitely fall on the “give a gift” side. This is not a business event, it’s a social one, and you are a guest of your boss and his/her spouse, who were not obligated to invite you. This isn’t a holiday where you still see each other only at work. It’s not a birthday where Boss is celebrating outside work and not inside so much. It’s a social event, and a major one. Most of all, it’s not an event where a reciprocal gift would be expected, like on holidays or birthdays. If it helps, think of it as giving the gift to boss’s soon-to-be. IMO not gifting would be a faux pas, one that might be noticed and frankly hurtful.

      2. phyllis b*

        I agree. I get the don’t gift at work, but this is a social occasion. It doesn’t have to be expensive; I have seen some great suggestions here, but do give something.

    30. Half-Caf Latte*

      I’m puzzled by the number of people who give actual gifts for weddings. Every wedding I’ve been to, my own included, the gifts were all cash. Maybe the ocassional wrapped gift, but like one if at all.

      Generational thing? regional thing?

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        From what I know, very much cultural/regional. In many cultures, including regional subcultures of the United States, everyone gives money because it’s the way the community helps a new family start off right. In others, it’s usually household goods (either off a registry or chosen individually), because the idea is for the community to help a new family that is assumed by tradition to be moving in together to start off with the things they need in order to function as a household.

        And in more casual American circles that don’t have their own subcultural standard to do otherwise, it’s recognized that tradition or no, many couples marrying today have already been living together and if they didn’t, each of them has been living alone. Between them, they already own most of what they need to start off a household, and they may not even be starting a new one at all with their marriage. In those communities, it’s pretty typical to go with the individual interests of the couple and give tangible presents which have nothing necessarily to do with household gear — might be ski equipment or concert tickets or anything they like. But usually, any tradition which does either of the previous versions will override this policy; people only give non-household, non-money gifts if the couple and their guests don’t have the pressure of tradition on them to to household stuff or money.

      2. Optimistic Prime*

        All of the above, I think. Traditionally, in the region where I’m from (the South) the assumption is the newly married couple is moving in together for the first time and haven’t maintained households with all the stuff you need, so you buy them household goods to help them establish their first home together. This persists even though it’s only uncommonly true anymore, and so people register for household gifts for their weddings and that’s what you get. So people that I know through my parents and in-laws who go by tradition, this is what they do.

        But I think it’s more common in my generation (I’m a millennial) to do the cash thing these days. First of all, we’re older when we get married, and are more likely to have acquired a bunch of stuff already – and already live with our mates before marriage. Second of all, we tend to live in smaller spaces; and third of all, generationally we tend to prefer experiences to things (that’s not universally true, but at a lot of surveys of millennials have found this). Sometimes they’re also getting married in their hometown, which is far away from where they live, and they don’t want to schlep presents back home or deal with who’s going to receive their gifts in the week or so before their wedding when they’re in the hometown organizing last minute stuff.

        So for weddings of close family members around my age or friends that I made myself – especially the ones I’ve made since I moved out of the South – I give them cash or a check or a gift card and I write a really nice message in the card. A lot of people I’ve seen are also doing honeyfunds and I like that – I like the idea of helping friends have a special experience on their honeymoon.

    31. Former Prof*

      Bluelyon suggested a Waterford vase, below, which is always lovely. I’d also add that a nice frame (perhaps silver plated) is also a nice, attractive, always useful gift–you can find them at TJ Maxx or on sale at Macy’s, or at various home decor places.

      I’d also highly suggest just picking something fun in your price range from Williams Sonoma — you can order online and have it sent, or get it yourself and wrap it yourself)–they’re having a 20% off sale and there are tons of really nice choices in all price ranges. Maybe a cute set of salad plates, or a slate cheese board https://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/brooklyn-slate-cheese-board-grey/?pkey=e%7Cboard%7C147%7Cbest%7C0%7C1%7C24%7C%7C4&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH, etc
      Some other suggestions in the $50 range:
      –A half-case of wine (go to a nice wine store and say you want to keep it to under $50)
      –A nice bottle of champagne (again, ask the wine store for something reasonable but a bit exotic, not an obviously cheapo bottle, but something that isn’t “literally” champagne, Veuve Cliquot or something) and two champagne glasses. A nice wine store will probably package it for you
      –A nice serving tray

      In choices closer to $25-30
      –A wood cutting board;
      –A wood cheese serving board, perhaps with little cheese labels
      –Wine “charms” that identify whose wine glass it is
      –An assortment of really nice honey in a gift package (Katz Farms does some fantastic honeys and jams); or two nice honeys and a honey “server” (those little curly spoons) (you can find them on Amazon)
      –A nice coffee and two mugs from a nicer coffee store (like Peet’s–NOT Starbucks)
      –A teapot and a nice tea (you can find some awesome, well-priced, and really attractive teapots on Amazon, and go for Harney’s tea–they have a lot of attractive decorative boxes)

  3. Sophia*

    I missed the Valentine’s Day post and just caught up. I’m somewhat bemused at how many people were gushing over the story about that guy pretending to be inept so he could spend more time with the OP, and buying her a present (‘joke’ or not) on top of that. Sure it was clear the OP had issues with her partner at the time already, but even so it felt so out of sync with the content of this site I was taken aback at how it was included as a ‘favourite’ by AAM!

        1. Rebeck*

          I read this and thought “but this is the Saturday thread!” because I’m in Australia so the Open Thread is what I wake up to every Saturday…

        1. Office Worker*

          I don’t think it is quite fair to cut Sophia off/tell her to wait till tomorrow. I think it is definitely work related to talk about how a trainee purposefully acted incompetent to get a mentor’s (who had a boyfriends) attention

          1. Tara*

            I agree. If it was “work-related” enough for Alison to include it in a mon-fri post, then its super rude for people to tell someone not to talk about it on the friday thread!!

    2. ZSD*

      Yeah, if a guy ever did that to me, I’d never want to be around him again. You took up my time at work, played dumb, and hoped that would make me find you attractive? Noooope.

    3. Nervous Accountant*

      Yeah I was pretty shocked by the reaction, normally people here would be calling him a psychopath or creeep at the very least. I thought it was a cute story though

    4. Julianne*

      I felt like it was one of those stories that was only cute because it had a happy ending (as in, the LW ultimately reciprocated the coworker’s feelings).

      5. Karo*

        Yup! How I Met Your Mother called it Dobler or Dahmer. If you’re into the person, their big romantic gesture is considered sweet. If you’re not into them, it’s creepy.

      6. Morning Glory*

        Agree with this, but also – the guy did get fired. I think that a concrete professional consequence also may have mollified people who would otherwise criticized the guy for his behavior.

        1. krysb*

          The guy purposefully getting fired made it worse for me. Who sabotages a job so they can sit next to the girl they like? This is assuming coworkers in that company were allowed to date, of course. Otherwise, he could have asked her out at any other time.

          1. Close Bracket*

            I didn’t read his intention being to get fired. OP said he “accidentally” got fired (I assume that was her word, since Allison doesn’t change people’s inputs unless necessary). That sounded to me more like an outcome that he maybe should have seen coming, bc that’s what can happen to a poor performer, but didn’t.

            1. zora*

              He didn’t get fired on purpose. He was trying to pretend he was picking up things more slowly than he really was, so that she would have to keep training him, and therefore they would have to spend the days sitting with each other and interacting. He misjudged, and did “too” badly and got fired. Which in a call center probably means missing very strict numbers requirements for too many weeks in a row, and results in automatic firing. It’s not like he did something awful or dangerous to get fired.

          2. aett*

            I believe the writer said that it was a call center job, so it’s not something that the new-boyfriend majored in and finally achieved after years of applying and hard work.

      7. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Yes, like one of those things that works in movies (Overboard, Lost & Found, half of Love Actually etc.) but is kind of creepy in real life.

      8. Sophia*

        Which, much like stories of people who use ‘unconventional’ methods to get into jobs or interviews, could well encourage others to try similar antics.

  4. unpaid*

    My former job has been blowing me off about my last commission check for months…

    Obviously I need to contact a lawyer, and this is illegal under my state’s laws. I’ve spoken to all the right people at the company about why I haven’t been paid, but haven’t heard sh*t so far. They are not contesting that I’m owed it but they’re not committing to actually paying me either. It’s a week’s salary (plus, like… I earned it…) so I’m not willing to let it go.

    HOWEVER, my question is: is it possible to escalate my requests, perhaps with the involvement of a lawyer, and still stay on good terms with my former company? I’m fed up and struggling to remain courteous, let alone graceful. I really, really do not want to have to do any sort of formal legal proceedings and would be very upset if it came to that. We were on good terms before this and I would hate for *this* to be what burns the bridge. Any advice??

    1. KR*

      Try getting a lawyer to send a certified letter to whoever is in charge, detailing your communications and attempts to retrieve your pay and the difficulties that you’ve had, noting that at this point they are in violation of the law/regulations (here you would note the specific state law requiring you to receive your last check which probably mandates you receive it sooner than now). Your lawyer will have some ideas. Letters from lawyers -not even legal action, scare companies a lot and often give them a kick in the pants.

      1. Adele*

        In my experience with larger companies/institutions, there are two (or more) bridges: the department for which you worked and then the support services such as HR and Payroll. I think it is possible to maintain good relations with your old department and associated departments while putting pressure via an attorney’s letter to HR, Payroll, Accounts Payable, or wherever the hold up is.

        I would be horrified to learn that our company hadn’t paid a former employee/colleague, even if it was the result of my unwittingly not having followed the correct procedure. As an Admin or Manager, would be spurred to look into it. Incorrect paperwork seems to go into a black hole where I work, with no one ever following up to say, “Hey, this is wrong/info is missing/needs to be re-done.” If an attorney’s letter to HR spurs them to look into it and to let me know what needs to be done on my end, I would never hold that against the former employee.

        1. unpaid*

          I probably should have clarified that it’s a small company. When I say I’ve talked to all the right people, I mean I have spoken with literally every single relevant person.

      2. unpaid*

        Yeah… I was afraid it would come to that. (Not scared so much as annoyed.) Thank you for confirming

    3. Marillenbaum*

      I would argue that by failing to pay you, they’ve burned the bridge. Do what you need to do to get your money, and if you need a reference, try for someone who no longer works there. Otherwise, pointing out that they are basically refusing to pay you means that with reasonable employers, they’ll understand why you are no longer on good terms with this company.

        1. Close Bracket*

          If you are on *really* good terms with the people you worked with, and you know that they are not the barrier, you could talk to them one more time and point out that the company is breaking the law. Maybe do it in one of Allison’s roundabout ways where you say something like, “appearing that the company is trying to skirt labor laws.” You know, *the company* is the jerkface here, not *them,* the people you worked with. *They’re* awesome.

          Of course, if the people you worked with are the ones telling you you’ll get paid and then not following up, this will probably still burn a bridge bc they know they are being jerkfaces.

      2. Reba*

        I was coming down here to make the same point — forget about whether they want to work with you in the future, do YOU still want to work for them?

    4. tink*

      They haven’t paid you for months and they’re effectively ignoring your attempts and getting your owed payment. I would personally already consider this bridge burnt, and I like KR’s suggestion about a certified letter. You can follow up with legal actions if that doesn’t get them motivated, and (to my mind) it’ll prove that you’ve tried to do everything you could in good faith with this company before actually having to get state employment folks/etc. involved.

    5. Yorick*

      If trying to get paid burns the bridge, I don’t think that’s a place you want to maintain a connection to.

      1. Tara*

        She might be referring to references and the like, rather than actually wanting to work with them again.

        1. o.b.*

          You know, it’s not even references, it’s just this squicky feeling in my stomach of not wanting to be That Person who invokes a lawyer. (These are my hang-ups, not universal ones!!) But honestly, my feelings about not getting paid trump the squick.

    6. MLB*

      Doubtful, but I wouldn’t worry about staying on good terms with the company. They’re not paying you the money you earned which as you’ve said is illegal. Burning bridges is generally not a good idea for future job prospects, but they’re clearly in the wrong here so I wouldn’t worry about it. You’ve done nothing wrong here, and it sounds like you’ve given them more than enough time to make it right. Contact a lawyer sooner rather than later – it’s time to stop worrying about them and worry about you.

    7. The Tin Man*

      I agree with above who said anything involving a lawyer would burn the bridge. What do you need the bridge for, I assume a reference? I do not 100%agree with the people who support burning the bridge out of principle because you can’t put principle on a reference request.

      Would your reference be the person whom the lawyer would be addressing or would it be someone out of that loop? It seems the best shot is if you could use someone who could be a reference who would not be even privy to the legal letter.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        This is a very common misconception about lawyers. Lawyers are personal advocates. They start off nice and escalate as needed. If you consult an attorney and tell them that you want to maintain a good relationship with the business, they’ll work to make that happen. Things like writing letters and talking to the business’s attorneys.

        Lawyers are the nuclear option that they’re portrayed to be in the media.

        1. The Tin Man*

          I see here I wasn’t clear. Talking to a lawyer isn’t a bad idea, that is a good idea. Having a lawyer write the letter is possible/probable to burn the bridge because of the misconception that you just stated – it is commonly interpreted as an aggressive move even if it is really the only option the company leaves OP as they try to passive aggressively “awkward” OP into giving up the request.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            No, you were perfectly clear. I just disagree. It’s perfectly possible and reasonable to involve an attorney and also not burn the bridge.

    8. MuseumChick*

      Have you told them you will be contacting a lawyer? Frankly, seeing that it’s been months I would just go head and get a lawyer, as others have said, why do you want this bridge at all? But if you want to give it one last try I would send an email to all the people you have spoken with saying something like

      “It is been X months and I still have not received my final commission check. According to state law blah blah blah. Unfortunately, if this is not resolved by X date I will be forced to contact a lawyer to resolve this. I would like to avoid that.”

      1. unpaid*

        Thank you! That’s a really good intermediary step—I’ve been wondering how to escalate from “hello again please pay me” to “pay me or I will sue you” without feeling like that’s too abrupt.

        1. Rick Tq*

          After 4 months it is time to talk to the State about their behavior, a Sternly Worded letter from a lawyer will probably be ignored some more.

          Someone on ‘good terms’ doesn’t stiff you a week’s salary for 4 months. That bridge is well and truly burned.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        I don’t like threatening to contact an attorney. What you’re really telling them is that you don’t want to contact an attorney.

        Also, if you’re serious about contacting an attorney, the best way to let them know about it is by having your attorney contact them.

    9. neverjaunty*

      You’re already on bad terms with your company, is the problem. Because of their conduct.

      They are stealing your money. Do not worry about remaining friends with thieves.

    11. Natalie*

      Commissions are often regulated under the DOL just like pay is, so you could start with your state’s department of labor and file a complaint.

      But also, this bridge is probably already burned, or at least soaked with gasoline, so probably make peace with that part.

      1. Safetykats*

        You don’t say who you’ve been interfacing with at your former employer. If you’ve only been talking to your former supervisor, you should definitely try pushing this up to payroll or HR/benefits. If there is a corporate organization, you could talk to them.

        My last job effectively laid me off – actually terminated my employment – but maintained that they didn’t owe me severance because I was hired by a affiliate. It was definitely termination and hire though – not a transfer – and the paperwork proved that. When I couldn’t get satisfaction from HR at my former employer I sent a certified letter to the HR director at corporate, presenting my case and documentation, and asking for his review of the matter. (Certified because it’s more official, and you can tell it was received and by whom.) A week later I got a very nice phone call from the director, telling me my severance would be in the mail the following day, and just confirming where it should be sent. I still work for the affiliate, and often run into corporate personnel who know the story – all of whom have said I did the right thing.

        FYI – although I didn’t have a lawyer send the letter – I did have one review my letter and advise me on wording, supporting documentation, and the method of sending. So I firmly believe there’s a middle ground that gets you your money and doesn’t cause trouble for you in the future.

        1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          I was going to say the same thing about being sure you’ve actually talked to payroll and if you’ve talked to local payroll, find out who is over them and talk to them as well. As someone who does payroll, frequently the issue with not getting paid is that no one bothered to tell payroll.

        2. unpaid*

          I should have clarified that it’s a small company. I have spoken with literally every single relevant person.

          Good point on having a letter reviewed by a lawyer but come from me—thanks!

      2. unpaid*

        Thanks, Natalie. Good points. I’m not even really worried about a reference—I just hate the idea of having to be the “problem” (ex)employee who involved lawyers. But I don’t hate that as much as the idea of not getting paid

        1. Anion*

          I wonder if you can–truthfully or not–mention something in the letter about how this is becoming an issue with your taxes, or your accountant, or something? To make it appear that *you* understand, but Someone Bigger Than You is insisting you be paid, so you have to involve an attorney.

          I don’t know if it would help, but if you’re worried about seeming like someone who involves an attorney and burning a bridge, you might be able to remove yourself from it a step that way?

      1. Earthwalker*

        This. They can review a company’s pay history for issues across the board and obtain your back pay and everyone else’s, keeping you anonymous. When I did this it was to an employer who had failed to correctly pay a lot of workers so a lot of people got back wages along with me. They did not find out who called the labor board in spite of asking everyone who could have done it. Of course, if you’re the only person your employer failed to pay fairly lately that would make it pretty obvious who engaged them.

    14. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      You left. You are on your own. You were on good terms before you left. Because you did good work.
      You were on not on good terms after you left. You were on no terms. You were no longer their concern.
      Just because you didn’t ask for anything, inconvenience employer or make him have to do work for someone who isn’t there anymore does mean everything is great.
      Because if, by burning bridges, you mean will they give you a good reference, then I’m going to ask you this:
      do you think that the person who would not pay you for work you completed would be a good reference anyway? I don’t think that’s the guy who is going to bother trying to help you out if he gets called for a reference?
      Yes, he worked here. He left last year.

    15. Bea*

      My gosh, my advice but I hope you get paid and these scumbags get into trouble.

      I was annoyed when my last check didn’t include commissions they owed me but they are so small (as in like twenty dollars worth) that I didn’t dig my heels in. Mostly because I know theyre steaming ahead to bankrupt and I take joy in their eventual failure.

      Side story aside, I hope your lawyer can get you paid plus some more for this bullshhht.

    16. AnotherLibrarian*

      If you get a good lawyer, they are often excellent at writing polite but stern letters. Frankly, these people haven’t paid you. The bridge may be already burned.

    17. SMB Employer*

      I am a co-owner of a small company, and I would be more concerned if I got contacted by a Labor and/or Revenue department as they have endless resources to hound or maybe decide my company needed investigating. If the amount in question is modest, I am willing to bet they think you won’t go for a lawyer for the cost and would do things to ring up that person’s time. Call your state’s DOL; it’s free, probably low-hassle, and it will get their attention quickly. Instead of threatening to sue them, tell them you will get them involved for dispute resolution. The specter of fines should get an owner’s attention quickly.

  5. Shut the Front Door*

    In my last job and my current job, the Front Desk Person (FDP) has worn two hats. Not only do they answer the main line, receive everyone through the front door, and sort the mail, but they had other tasks on top of it. In my previous job, the FDP was a junior marketing person; in my current job, the FDP is a travel coordinator.

    Everyone I knew who was in these two positions hated it. Said that too much was expected of them with all the front desk tasks and the marketing/traveling tasks. There was a lot of turnover in the roles because of this. Yet the higher powers said the FDP needs additional tasks because there is too much downtime with only doing appointments, phones, and mail.

    How is it in your workplaces? Does the FDP have additional workloads to take care of? Is it balanced for them? Or is this just the norm for the first face of the company to be way overworked like this?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      We have a full time desk person who manages the phones and greets visitors, and does light building management. She might do the ordering of supplies or similar. This works for us because we’re a pretty large office and the phones ring frequently, and we hold a lot of meetings. In smaller offices, it’s tougher because there is legitimately a lot of downtime if nobody’s coming in, and I do understand that the company doesn’t want to pay a full time salary to someone who is writing their novel (ask me how I know) between calls. I used to get 2-3 calls a day TBH and maybe one package. I don’t think it’s crazy to combine two half time jobs if it’s the right combination (something that can handle a lot of interruptions).

      1. puzzld*

        We are open about 80 hours a week. We have 3 full time and 10-15 part time (-10 hour per week) people who all work shifts at the front desk. They all have desk work and assignments away from the desk as we think spending 40 hours weekly on the firing line cause stress and burn out.

    2. o.b.*

      Ooh I’ve been this multiple times and was always so, so overworked.

      But just because it’s a norm doesn’t mean it’s a good practice.

    3. Not So Super-visor*

      Every place that I’ve worked has always had additional tasks assigned to the FDP. It’s always been the same belief that you can’t just sit there for 8 hours waiting for someone to come to the door.

    4. k*

      Our front desk people do other tasks. They do some HR related stuff (new hire paper work, payroll processing), and some accounting/financial stuff like entering things in quickbooks. I don’t know the full extent of their work, but turnover is low which makes me think they are not overworked. What may help is that we have multiple part time front desk staff, and they tasks are divided between them. So while there are, lets say 10 “extra” things they do, each only has one or two that they’re responsible for.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is why I’ve had so much trouble finding jobs. Even the low-level FDP jobs have accounting duties thanks to cutbacks and consolidation, and it’s not always just data entry. I found that out the hard way once when I took a job at a tax firm and then surprise! They wanted me to do someone’s payroll, which was not disclosed to me either in the job posting or at the interview.

        Even OldExjob didn’t hire an accounting assistant once my original manager left and her assistant got promoted into her role. They just dumped all the extra stuff on me.

    5. ThePandaQueen*

      I’m the FDP for my organisation and I do so much it’s pretty intense. I have to proof-read every document that goes to higher-ups (make the changes, run after people to correct them in their files, keep up-to-date with media/legal standards), I have to take care of catering (sometimes for places I have never visited), office supplies (If I don’t order them no one will have them), appointments (for travel and meetings), travel expenditures, cellphone replacements/technological replacements, bookings (travel including airplanes, hotels, cabs, conference rooms, media etc.), calendars (if someone isn’t there I have to take over their work load), boardrooms, new hires, answering phones, organising events, on top of my own work load which is pretty hefty. I’m basically the go-to person, and if people aren’t there I take over their tasks… balance isn’t really a thing for me, and when they hired me they told me I’d be overworked.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        you sound like you have the responsibilities of an executive assistant and a receptionist. That’s a lot for one person.

        1. ThePandaQueen*

          Basically you’re right. even though my position is FDP, they expect me to do the work of an executive assistant and receptionist because “it’s too quiet being an FDP without additional work”.

          1. JHunz*

            I’m guessing that they’re paying you for the position you’re supposedly in and not for the amount of work you’re actually doing

      2. selina kyle*

        You and I sound like we’re in the same boat! Or at least boats on the same river. It can be frustrating at times, but it’s kind of nice to hear that someone else is going through the same stuff. The hardest part for me is that it’s almost assumed I’ll agree to take on new tasks (especially since we have people out for medical reasons) and then I have new stuff that I’m not fully trained on.
        Best of luck to you out there

        1. ThePandaQueen*

          The hardest part for me right now is that I always have to have someone to cover for me, but how can I do that, when I’m already covering for everyone else?! Best of luck to you too, and just remember to take care of yourself, because burning out is all too common in my experience for people who have our kind of FDP positions.

    6. rosiebyanyothername*

      My office’s FDP is a marketing/outreach person as well. Currently they seem to like the marketing aspect of the job better than the front desk responsibilities of the job. The rest of the team (who sit near FDP) share mail-sorting and other responsibilities.

    7. Observer*

      A lot depends on traffic. High traffic areas or if you have a poor phone system (or one that your clientele just won’t work with) is different to a lower traffic area. But, also it’s important to choose the right tasks. I’d think that a travel coordinator has a high chance of being too intense to join with FD in most places. Supplies ordering is much more common and sensible, depending on the set up of course, ime.

      1. Chaordic One*

        A lot of the time your clientele won’t work with a poor phone system, and to be honest about things, I really don’t blame them.

        1. Observer*

          Well, if your clients won’t work with your phone system, the first thing to do is evaluate your system and the way it’s set up. Sometimes it really is a problem, and you REALLY need to fix that. You really can’t blame people for not wanting to work with a system that makes your life harder than it needs to be. But, sometimes your client base just won’t work with the system for reasons that have nothing to do with how good or bad the system is.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I think that’s actually really nice, because one of the drawbacks for our FDP is that she can’t ever leave the desk (I think she does have a headset she can walk around with, but it’s not the same). So it really sucks if we’re having a staff appreciation day or an early dismissal or whatever, and she has to stay. I think she can only go to the bathroom if she gets someone else to cover her! So having multiple people trade off seems fairer to me.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, this is a big issue with being an FDP, is never being able to leave. Especially if your ‘other tasks’ involve ever having to get up and go somewhere! That would make it hard to do both.

          I think it depends on what the other tasks are. If it’s something that takes concentration to get through big projects, it definitely sucks, because your attention is constantly getting interrupted. If it’s stuff that is easy to pick up and put down as needed, that’s different.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          OldExjob hired temps when we had all-company meetings. The lunch meeting was only an hour but we had to keep them for four hours, so I would make them do all the filing I hated, LOL.

        3. SarcasticFringehead*

          One of my favorite things about my previous manager was that if the office closed early, she would volunteer to cover reception herself, so the receptionist could go home when the rest of us did.

          When we have staff appreciation day, the most junior associate at the time has to cover the desk, which I think is an eye-opening experience for them.

          The bathroom thing would drive me crazy, though.

    9. Ambpersand*

      My last position was an FDP and while I had extra duties to fill in the gaps, there were clear communications from higher ups that sometimes I wouldn’t be busy because the heart of my job was to sit at the desk and wait for calls/visitors. It was actually a really nice balance.

    10. starsaphire*

      It’s been a while since I’ve done this job, but when I was doing reception for a place that had light traffic, I usually also had a lot of envelope-stuffing, data-entry sort of busywork. Anything that could be dropped at a second’s notice to pick up a phone or fill out a FedEx slip.

      Clearly things have changed since then, but I really liked that aspect of the job — that it wasn’t 100% phones or 100% data entry, but a nice mix, and that I wouldn’t get in trouble for chatting with the UPS gal for a minute because that was actually my job.

    11. selina kyle*

      That’s me in our office! I do a lot of design work in addition to the front desk duties and it gets taxing. I’m typically pretty busy and it is hard to get into the flow of my other tasks when I have to greet folks coming in, but I like the people I work with and I know that once things slow down a little it won’t be so bad. We have two folks out for medical leave so part of it is that as well.
      That said, when I just had the duties as a front desk person (I volunteer for as many other projects as I can in hopes of moving up the ladder/winning good favor from coworkers) I was bored out of my gourd. It’s a hard line to tread with these positions.

    12. The Tin Man*

      Well we *had* a FDP at our corporate building but she was laid off because the powers that be decided that she didn’t have enough to do to warrant paying someone full time to be there. And now it seems a mess where just random people who are unlucky enough to sit near the door have to answer when anyone comes by for deliveries or whatever else. And there is now even more work put on the Executive Assistant’s plate when she already does a TON for our organization.

      Still a new thing so we’ll see how it shakes out but right now on the surface it looks like a bad call. They are redoing a lot of things in that building though so they may find a way to incorporate some of her tasks like handling deliveries in a smoother way than “Hey FDP is gone now, figure it out”.

        1. The Tin Man*

          Oh, I agree. I know they tried and did that to some degree. I got hints that her performance wasn’t great so that may have contributed, though you don’t eliminate a position just because the person in it at the time isn’t performing. Well, not usually. There are enough very busy people here that it seems something could be off-loaded to the FDP. My boss mentioned it was “political”. I tend to miss a lot of those things because I tend towards naive/optimistic and often completely miss political motives with work stuff.

      2. Shut the Front Door!*

        Actually that’s what happened at my last job. After two FDP left in a row, they had a bunch of us switching off rather than hire anyone else. It was terrible because, as the lowest person in ranking, I got stuck with it the most when others were too busy to do it, even though no one seemed to care that my workload was slipping. I was so happy to leave and even now wonder if they’re still doing that practice without me to help them!

      3. specialK*

        Same thing happened to our FDP :( The remaining departments had to divvy up the mail room, supply room, kitchen duties, etc. So now we have VPs cleaning the office fridge…

      4. copy run start*

        I used to work in a busy client-facing office where the FDP were eliminated. Instead they had staff rotate through the position (two sat there each day), and moved us admins next to the front desk to provide overflow coverage.

        Staff ended up disgruntled because they were expected to complete their normal duties while at the FD and couldn’t while being constantly interrupted. Some tried to work and took their crabbiness out on clients and coworkers. Some just socialized with their fellow staff FDP that day. Some dealt with the situation by disappearing during slow periods. Some offloaded all the clients they could to the admins nearby (had it out with one person in particular who was horrible about this – I celebrated her retirement). A few actually did a good job, but most were mediocre at best. While staff were able to answer the more technical questions our clients had right away, they were often clueless when it came to locating pamphlets or assisting clients with certain tasks that had been taken care of by the FDP. Most made no attempt to figure anything out. We made a guide but no one referenced it.

        Personally I would’ve been fine just making FDP a part of my admin job and reducing some of my extra duties. But since it was supposed to be just an overflow thing we didn’t get any real allowance for it. I ended up planning my week around whoever was scheduled to cover the FD each day. Whenever certain people were scheduled I just assumed I would get none of my own work done that day.

        When I left they were actually considering not refilling my position and having staff rotate through it as well, but they didn’t follow through.

    13. Manders*

      Yes, I was a front desk person for a while, and my job expanded into some intense editing work that wasn’t very easy to do when the phone was ringing on a busy day. I also did a fair bit of managing up in order to keep my boss on task, and ended up being the keeper of the to-do list for the whole office. I also did a lot of work filing and cleaning a whole room full of legal files that had been messily stacked on the floor before I got there. It wasn’t an unmanageable workload, but whenever my boss was angry he’d go on a tirade about how I sat on my butt doing nothing all day, which was pretty demoralizing considering how much I was getting done for him.

    14. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’ve been the FDP and I always had additional tasks – transcription, data entry, things like that. They were tasks that were easy to pick up and put down and I never felt overworked. It sounds like the FDPs at your current and previous employers are also trying to do a regular full-time role on top of the FD duties and it’s unclear which is their *primary* role, and that seems problematic.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah if they’re accountable for programmatic work with deadlines, that sucks because it’s likely they’re going to end up snapping at someone who comes to the desk or calls at a bad moment – those things aren’t compatible, and the priorities would need to be laid out very clearly.

        1. zora*

          Oh yeah, exactly. If their ‘other tasks’ have deadlines, that is probably a bad combination, because if someone calls or walks in at exactly the right time, they have to choose which job to ‘fail’ at. :(

    15. Always Smile Up Front*

      I have done FDP twice at small to medium businesses. Both had too many responsibilities. The second one was ok, since they allowed me a couple hours of overtime to take care of the “away from the desk” tasks, like filing, etc. Nothing was ever time sensitive, so the only pressure was from myself.
      Truly, the worst part is trying to run to the rest room or take your break. Who can cover my desk for 90 seconds and is the room free? Oh, my break coverage isn’t available this week?
      I do not miss it most days.

      1. copy run start*

        Oof yeah, nothing like going around begging coworkers to cover your break! I always felt like that task should’ve been handled by our management, but… they didn’t see it that way. I felt bad but it typically fell to a few kind-hearted coworkers who always said yes.

    16. hbc*

      I think it works great if the FDP tasks are considered primary and the other tasks as “stuff that gets done if I have time.” (Or if the office is so quiet that we’re talking 30-60 minutes of FDP tasks a day.) But if there are strict deadlines on the other responsibilities and you still have to deal with the FDP stuff as it happens, it’s a recipe for disaster.

    17. Trout 'Waver*

      Our FDP pretty much only does reception. It makes a professional and positive impression to always be ready to greet and direct guests and customers. It gives the wrong impression if a customer who spends $20M on your products annually has to wait for the FDP person to drop what they’re working on and help them.

    19. Lily Rowan*

      I’m the FDP for a car dealership right now, and it basically is having two full time jobs! I have a lot of other tasks that need to be completed on time and yet I am constantly interrupted by phones, customers, or co-workers needing help with something ASAP. Some days it is overwhelming and frustrating, and some days there is a bit of downtime. The biggest help is people giving me lead time on tasks that need to be completed so I can factor in the extra time needed to account for all the interruptions (which take time away for the actual interruption and for the time it takes for me to get back into the focus/groove I had before).

    20. Ama*

      I’ve been the FDP with way more than two hats – I’ve talked before how at my last job the big bosses were in denial about how much front desk work there was, so they basically made my job a full time department administrator job + front desk duties. Which meant it ended up being anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times more work than anyone could reasonably be expected to handle. When I left my immediate boss and I tried to get them to change the job posting for my replacement from 15% reception duties to 30% (it was really more like 50 but that was all we thought we could get them to agree to) — and they insisted it was absolutely impossible I had that much on my plate. They ended up having to hire 2 FT and 1 PT person (who only did front desk work) to replace me.

      At my current job the office manager was originally the front desk person, which seemed to work fine, but when she retired they attempted to make front desk and junior bookkeeper a hybrid job, while decentralizing a bunch of the office admin tasks ( individual departments were supposed to buy their own supplies, the conference room calendars didn’t have an assigned overseer, etc.). Unsurprisingly, this was a total disaster. The difference between my last job and this one, though, is that they realized it was a disaster about six months in, when they moved the junior bookkeeper to a FT finance department position (she’s actually still here and has been promoted a few times), and re-established the front desk position as more of a general office administrator job.

      Our biggest problem has been the backup FDP rotation. We are too small to have multiple general office administrators, so anyone on the backup rotation has their own non front desk duties (the admin in my department is one of them). That has definitely caused some friction about who gets pulled into those responsibilities and when. I have occasionally had to request that my admin be excused from coverage in the week before we have a major project, and I have to keep a pretty close eye on requests for extra coverage from her as the line has a tendency to start moving from “ok this one time” to “this is a regular thing” very quickly. It’s been even worse for my coworkers who had desk coverage as part of their jobs initially but have now been promoted into new roles — once you get sucked into coverage it’s very hard to get out of the rotation.

      1. Always Smile Up Front*

        Ultimately, left my second FDP because of exactly the situation you describe above. I was promoted off the desk and sucked into it for an additional 2 hours per day of coverage. Plus the promotion was 2 FT positions. I was burnt out in 90 days.

        1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

          Agreeing that once a FDP, always a FDP in some capacity!

          When I was hired, the company was teeny-tiny, so I wore 3 or 4 hats, including front desk. Our front desk duties included: Mail, deliveries, phone calls, greeting people there for appointments and also the lost souls that can’t find the place they actually need and have decided to use us as in information desk, plus sending out requests for the pathologists (additional testing, consultations, etc).

          Now, as a senior employee (9yrs), I’ve moved away from the majority of things I was doing upon hire because my institutional knowledge + various skill sets are needed just about everywhere else. I’m now wearing 5 or 6 hats, and am currently dealing with a transition period where they’ve taken all my help away, but the new person to come help me isn’t ready for training yet (they need to train somebody else themselves…), and yet I’m still called to help cover the front when people are out, or during lunches!

          If this were a permanent situation, I’d burn out. Thankfully, there is a concrete plan in current motion for an end-in-sight, and until then, I’ll be a chicken drowning while running around with my head cut off, haha.

    21. Thlayli*

      I’ve worked in small offices where front desk was just one part of someone’s role, and in big offices where they are a dedicated resource (or multiple dedicated resources). I think there is an awkward phase in a companys growth where it’s too much to be just an extra piece of work but not enough to be a full time role. Perhaps the solution is for the person to be given only half of the duties of a normal travel coordinator – or 1/3 or 2/3 or whatever makes sense.

      1. Manders*

        That’s a great point–there is a weird phase small companies go through where there’s sort of a half-job that needs to get done and it’s not worth having a full-time person just to do it. And for other roles you can hire someone part-time to do the work you have available, but for front desk duties you really need someone to be in the office for the full day, so it’s tempting to load that person who doesn’t look busy up with all the extra tasks that aren’t quite a full job.

      2. Koko*

        The tricky thing is when the duties of the two jobs are so different that it’s unlikely you’ll find one person who genuinely wants to do both types of work. I don’t know all the details of travel coordination but it sounds like it might be similar enough to reception that someone with a generally administrative background might be interested. The other example of a marketer working front desk…yeah, no. Nobody with experience and interest in a creative career really wants to be an admin, and they’ll only take it if they need a job or can’t get anyone to hire them to do creative work full-time so they’re hoping to use this job to build professional experience. They will most likely be unhappy and jump ship as soon as they can to get away from the admin work.

    22. Llama Wrangler*

      Oh, yeah, this is a constant source of contention/headaches at my office, I think largely because our FDP’s FDP role is not defined (they happen to sit at the front desk, but it seems like no one considers it a real part of their role, meaning when they’re pulled in other directions, there’s no plan for coverage). And then they had to take on a second role because of someone leaving, so now as far as I can tell, their role is:
      -FDP/office manager (great people, answer general phone calls, organize and order supplies)
      -Personal assistant to grand-boss (manager GB’s calendar, get her coffee, maintain her office)
      -Program manager for our grant (process payments, update budgets, execute contracts)
      -Program manager for another grant (process payments, plan and manage events, IDK what else)

      The result? FDP is constantly stressed, and our office and grant are badly managed.

    23. Smiling*

      Our FDP is also a departmental assistant. However, when that department’s work gets extremely busy, phone duties are usually shifted to another admin in the office. We don’t have a high volume of foot traffic, so that usually isn’t a problem.

    24. Snow Day Lady*

      It really depends on the situation I think.

      In my first job I was a junior outreach coordinator for a regional branch of a nonprofit. Being the most junior employee meant that I also had front desk duties (answering phone calls, greeting visitors, receiving the mail, ordering supplies, ect.). However, I think it complemented the other aspects of my job well. For instance, my job involved organizing and attending outreach events, and many of the callers/visitors were people I knew personally from these events, which helped a lot on both ends. Part of my job was also to process and report on donations, and being the mail organizer helped expedite this by eliminating the need for a coworker to communicate with me every time donations were received through the mail (which happened almost every day). It also gave me the chance to directly follow up on any discrepancies, such as checks bouncing or being made out to the wrong name. Sure, it meant some extra work on my end, but to be honest I really enjoyed it. I was thankful to have a break from whatever I was doing to talk to a donor or walk to the mailbox. Then again, I like interacting with people and have good customer service skills, which made me a good fit both for donor outreach and for front desk work. Furthermore, employees at nonprofits are used to wearing multiple hats, so it didn’t even seem weird to me that I was doing two separate roles.

    25. Manager of 2*

      I manage our FDP. (We are a homeless shelter) She has a few responsibilities beyond phones, mail, and greeting-tracking who was in and out of shelter, alerting facilities to upcoming moves and some *very* light EA work for our COO. She is busy most of the day but hasn’t expressed being overworked and has started mentioning that she feels like she needs some new challenges in the role. But it doesn’t make sense to have her carry a case load or anything because of the varied busy times at the desk.

    26. EmilyAnn*

      In my first job I was front desk person. It was a very busy place with phones ringing constantly and visitors in and out. I still had time for side tasks. The key is that the side tasks have to be taken care of in downtimes. In the beginning I had no time for anything and was coming in on weekends to do the extra tasks but after a few weeks I learned to manage quiet afternoons and other time better and was able to get things done. I would have been bored if my only taks was working the front desk.

    27. LAI*

      As someone who has been a Front Desk Person wearing 2 hats, it is very tiring to have to divide your attention like that, and I’m not surprised that you’ve had high turnover. It’s not necessarily about having enough time – in my experience, I did have a lot of downtime between calls or customers. The problem is that it’s very hard to do thought-intensive work in short bursts with constant interruptions. The only way I have seen this work is for there to be designated break times when the front desk person is allowed to dedicate themselves to their non-receptionist tasks, without distractions. I think it’s fine if the front desk person’s additional duties are short tasks, like ordering supplies, maybe processing reimbursements (I’m not sure about travel). But I do some marketing work and I need to focus – I would not be able to do it in 5-minute intervals.

      1. Ama*

        Yes this was exactly the problem with my FDP role — my other duties included editing and desktop publishing our biannual newsletter, event posters, and other collateral, writing up the extremely detailed minutes on our monthly development meetings, and managing budgets. On days when the phone was ringing every five minutes or I had a bunch of people coming by to request supplies or hand in expense reports it was impossible to do any of those three tasks — and I had no way to predict when the busy days would happen. This is why they had to split the role so much when I left — there were too many projects that needed to be done without any front desk interruptions.

    28. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      At my company (a non-profit), the woman who does the front desk also does all of our invoices for one of our businesses. Considering she’s been with the organization for 30+ years, I guess that works for her.

      (To be fair, I think most of our invoices are processed by someone wearing multiple hats. I’m a floor supervisor/project manager, and I do the invoices for my division’s business.)

    29. IKnowRight?*

      Our front desk person is part of the operations team, so they have other tasks. However, we’re a small nonprofit and generally get few visitors and phone calls, so it’s not a big deal. More like an operations assistant who sits at the front desk because somebody has to, than a front desk person with other tasks.

    30. Goya de la Mancha*

      Definitely a situational thing, but in my experience:

      *Sometimes it’s just the person, they don’t work well in the variable and want a job that has a more constant pace or job duties.

      *FDP can be a VERY different job from your other reports. The needs that they will have as far as time, equipment, etc. will not be the same as another person/department. They deserve the consideration to look into what will make their job as smooth/efficient as possible – even if someone else in another department might not need that to do THEIR job. (ie: headsets for a very multiple phoneline situation VS someone who only gets a couple calls a day)

      *FDP should never be assigned work that is urgent/time based. Their main focus is the FD and all work they do outside of that should have the ability to wait a few days if the customer/phone traffic has picked up for some reason.

      *Tasks assigned to FDP should be within their pay range. Don’t ask FDP to take on tasks (long term) that your senior staff are doing without compensating them accordingly. A FDP to fill in while Sr. staff is out on leave is fine, if it’s viable with the schedule, but they also shouldn’t be getting paid Z to do work that Sr. is getting paid X to do.

    31. Elizabeth West*

      OldExjob: I was the FDP and had additional tasks. Unfortunately, some of them took me off the front desk. The ones in the accounting office were NBD; I could transfer the phone back there, though I did not have the whole switchboard with all its buttons at my disposal. Same with filing–there was an extension in the file room. Things like retrieving samples from the shop or prepping them were a little more difficult. I had to wait until my backup (part-time marketing person) showed up at 11. He had a habit of calling in at the last minute and without someone to take over the phones, I could not leave the desk, so the work went undone. My good supervisor would do it if I really needed to go, but the last one would not.

      Oh, and I also had to go to Sam’s and get break room supplies. We did click and pull, but once I learned where they kept everything, I just filled up the dolly myself. I didn’t mind doing that because 1) I got mileage, and 2) it got me out of the office for a while.

      At Exjob, the receptionist did data entry also. As a lunchtime sub, I didn’t have to–I used the time as a brain break from my own work, which took some concentration and was hard to do while answering the phone. So I would just read Buzzfeed for the whole hour and keep an eye on my email. The receptionist at the second desk (not the main one) had a buttload of tasks to do for higher-ups. They were recently hiring for that position, but I didn’t apply for it, since I knew it was a lot of spreadsheet stuff.

    32. Teapot librarian*

      Our FDP also has a second set of responsibilities, only those responsibilities are not at the front desk! I’ve tried to resolve this issue by bringing in interns who can do the FD responsibilities (and to whom I also give data entry type of responsibilities) and then give the actual FDP more of the responsibilities that are not at the front desk. His position is paid at a level where he should be doing more of the non-front desk responsibilities anyway, so this solves a couple of problems. Unfortunately, because our budget doesn’t allow for us to hire another full time person, we’re at the mercy of other government agency programs that pay for interns. (My current intern’s last day is in two weeks and I’m going to miss him!)

    33. DMouse*

      This happened at my old office. The corporate office has a fulltime executive assistant-type person, who handles everything – reception, shipping/mail, travel, keeping the office clean, and probably a ton of other duties. For some reason, though, they never understood that our smaller office needed someone to handle those type of things. I was originally hired as FDP, but as my job duties and even title developed over the years, they still didn’t hire anyone else to handle those things. Eventually they got rid of having a main number for the office, so there was no reception duties needed – but I was still handling supplies, mail, et. on top of my completely unrelated job. And when I wasn’t in the office anymore, they put those things on someone else who also had a completely non-admin role.

    34. Vivien*

      I’m the FDP for a teapot showroom, but my official title is “expediter”. I funnel clients on phone and in person to the appropriate salesperson and do light sales (w/o commission) if everyone is busy. I also do data entry and ordering for the Big Tea Party Salespeople, and keep the showroom tidy. I’m also the unofficial IT person, because I know basic troubleshooting and can usually find the answer without calling the contracted (and more expensive) IT Person.

      I was hired as a temp originally after a severe burnout from my previous job (horrid management). Definite step down in terms of title. The powers that be discovered a year later that I can do All The Things. They asked why I didn’t tell them I could do All the Things and I flat out said because I charge $X per hour in my side gig to do that, and I was making $X-5 per hour here. So they gave me a pay raise to $X and I’m now in charge of All The Things while still working the front desk. I feel swamped only half the time though.

    35. Teapot Tester*

      When I first started 2.5 years ago, the FDP, Sansa, was also the office manager. She handled mail, maintenance tasks like changing light bulbs, ordering supplies for the kitchen, etc. I think it was a good balance of work for her. She left and moved to the other side of the world with her boyfriend; maybe she was bored.

      Instead of hiring to replace her, the VP’s assistant became the FDP. So on top of Sansa’s tasks, Arya had to schedule meetings, handle lunches for visiting clients, and lots of other EA-type stuff. Not surprisingly, she left right before a scheduled move to a new office, and she was in charge of a lot of the move tasks so left things in a bit of an uproar.

      Once again they didn’t hire an FDP only, but this time roped a Sales Executive Assistance into the job. Cersei is even busier than Arya was, and often is in meetings instead of at the front desk. She was once gone for a whole week in sales meetings with no one filling the role. Before the move, I sat closest to the front door, and quickly got annoyed by having to open the door to visitors and find whoever could help them. I hate that TPTB won’t spend the money to hire someone just for that role. It’s better since we moved, at least for me since I’m not closest to the front door anymore.

    36. A.*

      Our front desk person is a paralegal.
      She sits in her office and comes to the front to sign for packages or attend to visitors when someone rings the bell. The only time we have had a dedicated front desk person is when there was funding for a temp.

    37. Tuna Casserole*

      Our front desk people do other tasks, if they have time. Helping patrons and answering the phones are their top priorities. And the tasks change depending on which staff member is at the desk. Some are cool with doing cash, or setting up displays, or tackling computer issues, some are not, and that’s fine. If no one wanted to do a particular task, then the manager would have to assign it to someone, but that doesn’t happen often.

    38. Koko*

      I had a similar job split once and hated it. I was head of fundraising and marketing as well as the office manager (managing vendor contracts and legal compliance requirements), receptionist (answering the public phone line, email inbox, and comments on our website), executive assistant to the ED (anything she needed), and once it became apparent I knew my way around a computer, she added light tech support so that we didn’t have to call in the $200/hour tech support specialist we contracted with to my plate.

      I basically couldn’t make any long-term strategic plans for fundraising and marketing, because the office manager side of my job meant that I was constantly getting interrupted with last-minute reservations the ED needed me to book, or Fires That Need to Be Put Out Right Now. My true interest was in the marketing and fundraising, which I’m good at, and the truth is I was terrible at the administrative stuff. I am just not organized or detail-oriented enough to be good at that type of work. It crushed my self-esteem working a job that I was lousy at 50% of, and working a job where I wasn’t given any opportunity to advance my fundraising/marketing skills because the front-desk stuff was always more urgent and business-critical than trying out new fundraising ideas.

      It was the chief reason I left that job. Despite struggling with the admin work I wasn’t bad enough to be in danger of being fired, so I spent 18 months looking and interviewing for jobs that were purely marketing/fundraising and my cover letter made clear that the reason I wanted to move on from my current position was because I didn’t think I could grow professionally as a marketer while being saddled with all the unrelated administrative work.

    39. designbot*

      We actually have two front desk people because our office is open more like 10 hours rather than the standard 8. So we have one person come in with the earliest folks, open the office, and she is our morning front desk person and also the office manager in charge of overseeing the guy who drives our shuttle, ordering lunches, supplies, interfacing with cleaning and repair people, managing the calendar of the conference rooms and public spaces, etc. Then we have a part time person in the afternoon/evening who is pretty much just phones/door/mail. They overlap by a couple of hours midday which helps make sure everyone gets a decent lunch break and that the office manager has time for her management duties, but also that the front desk is covered at all times.

    40. Rita*

      FDP means something different in my industry and this thread is making my eye twitch!!!

      To keep on topic – it was the same in my last company and the people in the front desk actually kept requesting more work, because they were bored out of their minds, so I guess it depends on the workload.

    41. krysb*

      Our does both of those, travel and marketing, as the front desk person. Of course, we don’t have a lot of visitors or phone calls to the main line – most clients usually call their PM/RM/Salesperson directly.

    42. Banana*

      I used to have a job like this. At first I was definitely underworked, and then later I had plenty of work.

      I did filing, financial paperwork, data entry, some writing, some easy work in InDesign, I was the back-up for my Grand Boss’s assistant, managed petty cash, I managed the keys/access for the office, ordered office supplies, helped out with certain events, and some other seasonal projects.

      I wouldn’t say I was overworked, though. Definitely underpaid! lol. But if I was just the FDP with nothing else to do I think I would have lost my freaking mind.

    43. Nita*

      We’ve tried both. Our front desk person only did reception/filing type stuff for a long time. Then a new admin came on board and took on more tasks like helping staff with setting up new projects in our recordkeeping system, packaging materials for field assignments, etc. Basically stuff that’s in the gray area between admin needs and project-specific needs. OMG. The amount of time we saved, and the difference her help made when we were scrambling to deal with a project that was stretching the department to the limit. She took this on voluntarily, and let people know if she wasn’t able to do xyz that day because of other responsibilities, so this worked amazingly well.

    44. K*

      Our company is so much focused on cost reductions that we don’t even have a front desk person. That means we have instead a list on the front desk (and a mounted ipad that doesn’t work half of the time), which lists mainly outdated telephone numbers. (Outdated because our fluctuation in staff is so high… Go figure)
      I’ve seen lots of very confused visitors whenever they have been not told in advance to call a certain number when they arrive.

    45. Jade*

      We don’t have a FDP. Our calls are auto directed to the customer service team (and we don’t have a huge amount of calls coming through that are not FOR customer service, so that makes sense for us).
      I work in HR, and manage visitors, the mail, couriers and things like travel on top of my normal responsibilities. It’s not a huge amount of additional work where I am, but it is a massive pain in the butt when you’re in the middle of something and the door bell is ringing!

  6. bluelyon*

    Can anyone recommend a digital audio recorder that can record an interview taking place on speaker phone? Our office has a recorder that plugs into the handset of the phone but can’t record if the phone is on speaker – a problem as we have more people involved in interviews now than in the past. (Limiting the number involved isn’t an option – the person who does interviews does a good job but only within one subject area- my team needs the interviews to focus on different things and the subjects are more comfortable if we’re there)

    1. Lore*

      I’ve had good results using the voice recorder built in to my iPhone, and also the iPad app Voice Recorder (which is either free or $1.99). I mostly record one-on-one interviews (for research and writing, not job interviews), but I’ve recorded panel discussions from the audience on my phone and they came out pretty well. If you need to transcribe later, I find the iPad app gives a little more starting/stopping/rewinding control, but just to listen, both work quite well.

      1. bluelyon*

        Thanks – I’ll see if I can get that added to the office iPad (assuming it still works) – we do transcribe things and so that is a helpful quality.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        I like the iPhone app “RecUp,” which automatically uploads recordings to my Dropbox account.

      1. bluelyon*

        We can’t for reasons passing understanding. I think it’s a budget thing but I’m honestly not sure – I’ve been pushing for that in some of our other calls etc. and had no success in getting people on board.

    4. Happy Lurker*

      I have recorded 3 or 4 personal conversations on my android phone with an app called Smart Recorded by SmartMob. I might have paid about $5 for it. The conversations took place on a separate cell phone using the speaker. I have listened to the recordings after and am impressed with the quality. They upload to my google drive.
      I still have my notes, but to be able to listen back to hear the conversation is helpful for me.

    6. School Psych*

      GotoMeeting can be used for phone conferences as well as video-conferencing. It is free for the 1st 30 days and very inexpensive after that(around 30 dollars a month). I used their software to record phone interviews for a research study I did and it worked really well. One of the nice features of this program is that the person you are conferencing with or interviewing does not have to download anything to participate. They just click the link or dial in a number with a code on their phone and are automatically connected to the meeting. Up to 10 people at a time can participate in the conference with the free and basic plans.

    7. bluelyon*

      Thank you all!
      We have free conference call numbers for other uses so I’ll probably start there and branch out.

    8. Close Bracket*

      My Olympus WS-853 that I bought from Best Buy rocks. I use it on speaker phone, but I don’t need to. My iPhone volume is high enough and the recorder is sensitive enough that I could record calls on handset mode.

      This thing is a really amazing little device. I recommend it to anyone who needs to record conversations.

  7. Sunflower*

    A lot of the people that my team supports(that’s our job) are very unhappy with my bosses performance. I can not stand working with her for a number of reasons but hearing other people’s experiences solidifies my feelings. However, these folks are waiting until they can build a solid case until they go to my bosses boss. This is making me miserable. I need to talk to my boss about my issues with her.

    Should I bring up that other people have expressed issues with her as well or should I wait for them to come forward?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I would NOT mention other people’s issues with her, especially if they are not ready/willing to move on them. If she asks you if other people have issues with her, I would defer and say something like “you’d have to ask them.” This keeps YOU out of it and focuses your concerns with your boss between the two of you. I don’t know if essentially saying “other people are ticked at you as well” is going to give you additional “proof,” so to speak.

    2. Anony*

      Do not bring up other people’s issues with her. They do not want to bring it up with her and will not necessarily back you up if you try to force them.

    3. Not So Super-visor*

      It depends. How good is your relationship with your boss’ boss? If they don’t know you or your credibility, they may not take your complaint very seriously. This is especially true if you don’t have an solid, business-related examples that you can provide.

    4. Jules the Third*

      Do not bring up other people’s issues. The only way their issues can be part of the conversation is if they are in the room with you, bringing up their issues themselves.

      Before you go to Grandboss, test out your persuasive powers on the other people with issues. At the very least, ask what their timeframe is and see if you can coordinate so that you’re all going within a week or two of each other.

    5. Yorick*

      Well, if other people experience the same issue, you can possibly mention it, maybe by saying that you’ve observed this as a widespread problem. But it’s still probably best to just keep the conversation limited to any issues between you and your boss.

    6. MLB*

      I would just talk to your boss an your own. I worked for a crappy boss, and my team left one by one. I even had a meeting with our CIO about it before I left. Nothing was done. They knew she was awful, but my company was famous for allowing crappy people to lead. Ganging up with your team to go above the boss’s head may not end well so I’d just concentrate on your issues with your boss.

    7. Parenthetically*

      You shouldn’t bring anyone else up. Here’s one example of why not: there’s a major public figure in the US right now who is constantly saying stuff like, “Important people tell me” and “Many, many people have said” and “People are saying.” In his case, it comes across as a dodge to try to give himself plausible deniability (“I didn’t say it, I just said PEOPLE are saying it!”). It also sounds insecure, as if he can’t just state and own his own view without appealing to others’ similar views. Saying “Lots of people have expressed this same issue with CrapBoss” sounds like that. State your opinion as your own and stick to your guns. :)

      1. Irene Adler*

        And… if management goes to verify what you told them regarding other employee’s complaints and these other employees don’t confirm what you told them, YOU lose credibility.
        Don’t believe that others will stand up and complain as you will. They may fear losing their jobs and dummy up while you take the heat by being the sole complainant.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          All of this. I’ve seen this happen too many times where people are more than happy to bitch about someone privately, but when confronted and given the chance to speak to the person upfront, will chicken out and won’t say a word.

    9. kas*

      Yes, as others have mentioned, I would not bring up that other people have also expressed issues with her.
      I recently found out that my coworker expressed to our boss some issues she had with a few things and told our boss that she was speaking for the entire team, I was not happy.

    10. Close Bracket*

      If you decide to go forward on your own, think about letting the other people know, as a courtesy, that you are going to do so.

    11. AF*

      You should wait for them to come forward and only bring up specific, documented incidents that you are concerned about, and handle it dispassionately and unemotionally.

      That said, I once ended up in the oddball position of working with my boss’s boss (R) to get two of my bosses fired (M, then his replacement, T. )I had a strong track record of good judgement and expertise in both subject area knowledge and staff management, and a good working relationship with R, so it made sense in that one particular situation. R had zero say in hiring M, who lasted 57 days, and T, who lasted 10 months, but was held directly responsible for their failures. It happens.

      Moral of the story: nonprofits are fun.

  8. TGIFriday!*

    Does anyone here work as a social media coordinator/associate/etc who could tell me more about what you do in your position? It’s something I would like to learn more about and possibly move into at some point. Could anyone explain what goes on in the normal day of a social media position?

    1. Curious Cat*

      While I’m not the exact social media manager at my org, I do run one of our larger accounts on Twitter. I set up/schedule tweets each morning, monitor analytics and try to find what works best on our platform and what’s giving us the most growth. Helping to set up paid promotional ad material with other departments in the org. Setting up things like Twitter chats with other organizations and making connections with them. Just overall making sure we have a strong presence online and that we’re consistently growing and interacting with our audience.
      Also use a ton of programs to help do all this. Hootsuite, Raidan6, Symplur, Sysomos etc etc

    2. grace*

      I did what Curious Cat mentioned, as well as reaching out to journalists we had good relationships with to give them our information and data source (we collected gov’t information and had the only publicly available dataset – so for journos in the nat sec or related beats, we were a good place to start). A lot of my job ended up being graphic design, which I detested and is a main reason I’m no longer pursuing the field.

      I also wrote copy for blog posts, newsletters, email blasts, memos, etc. I’ve found/heard that those particular roles tend to wear a lot of hats.

    3. Becky*

      What Curious Cat said, and–

      Depending on what the company has when you get in with that position, you may find yourself:

      –Building social presence from the ground up. Establish social media accounts on pertinent channels (Facebook/Twitter/LinkedIn, etc) and then watch and listen. The “Go where the audience is” is a key factor in not spreading your resources too thin where they won’t even be noticed.
      –Unfortunately, Facebook really wants your money, so to get your posts seen in the first place to determine if your audience is out there, there will need to be an ad budget. This may be handled by a different position.
      –Use Hootsuite to start with if there is no budget for scheduling tools; you can hook up several accounts for free. This leaves you free to engage and nurture your audiences in real time even as you have posts going out periodically.
      –You may be responsible for analytics as well. This is the kind of thing where I’d advocate a higher title / getting help when justified, because otherwise you’ll be doing both front end and back end stuff, and that gets to be too much for one person.
      –Don’t be afraid to experiment. Pinterest can actually work for B2B companies. Instagram as well. Try it, set your company’s footprint, re-evaluate. The best benchmarks you have are the ones against yourself, not against “industry standards.” Start determining what success means: % engagement? Comments, likes, and shares? Website traffic?

      My number one tip, though, is to remember to talk to people like you’re a person and they are persons, too. No corp-speak. Even if the website copy doesn’t match the way real people talk, make sure your social approach does!

    4. Shaima*

      Social media is a piece of my comms manager role, but I am the one who runs the budget and content for our social media feeds! I’d love to answer any specific questions, but here’s what my day (social-related) looks like:

      I have constant alerts set up for any time we’re mentioned by someone else on FB or T. That lets me respond easily and quickly to what people in our community/industry are saying. I spend some time looking for evergreen content to store up in a bank for slow times, or scanning news (I also have google alerts for relevant topics). Reading articles, making sure they’re something we can share/comment on, and then analyzing our follower data and schedules for the best time to post things, the right hashtags, and the right handles to tag. (Reporters if we share a news article, the source, etc.)

      I also take and edit photos for Instagram, making sure the photos align with our org’s image, are spaced out enough with diversity of all sorts (racial, socioeconomic, gender, environments, etc.) and following hashtags for conversations to enter. I run ads on Facebook and Instagram, which requires research for proper demographics as well. I also make graphics for social.

      On days that we have larger events, I’ll live tweet or be onsite all day for FB live or Instagram stories – these days are actually TONS of fun but a lot of work, with a few phones in use and constant typing, sharing quotes, and all sorts of things.

      At the end of the month, I analyze all of our reach, impressions and engagement and set goals for the next month! I love it – it involves both creativity and analysis, and can be fast-paced or super slow depending on what’s going on. It’s about 40% of my role, which isn’t uncommon for comms positions. When I’m not doing social media, I’m doing web/print design, content editing, website updates, and email marketing.

      1. Tara2*

        I just started as a social media manager for a growing non-profit in my area. One that has no social media presence at all yet. Right now I am working on graphic artist stuff, as that’s closer to my background and what they need first, but I’d love to know if you have any tips about things newbies might make mistakes on without realizing its going to be a mistake? I’m a little scared, but the people I’m working with are pretty great. I just want to do really well.

    5. EddieSherbert*

      My position is also not 100% social media.

      We use Twitter, Facebook, Yammer (kind of like a “closed network” version of Facebook), have a blog and a help site that has documents and videos.

      I think the only “set in stone” part of my day is that I check all of the above in the morning to see if anyone has posted anything I should address (usually product/best practice questions). I also check it all before I leave at the end of the day. (I do check during the day, but morning and evening is the only “scheduled” times I check).

      On Mondays, I plan out our weekly blog that’s posted on Tuesdays (which includes checking our top searches and the top issues on the support line for ideas of what to write, then writing the blog, creating any graphics, creating an email, and social media posts for the blog and setting up any tracking info for all those).

      From there, about 70% of my job is video, so I mostly write/plan/produce/edit video for the website, both promotional and training material. I also write the help documentation that goes along with my videos.

    6. BeepBoopBeep*

      This is less important for a strictly “social media” coordinator, but if you want to do marketing in general, you’ll need to be able to put together email campaigns and ads that are in the specific BRAND’s voice (not yours). There are quite a few skills that might not be listed or thought of when it comes to these types of positions at first, and having them are sooo helpful and will make your job so much easier. Learn some basic coding (knowing the basics at least of HTML will help you loads), and know how to read data. You won’t be able to make accurate campaigns if you don’t know how to read the data provided to you.

      1. BeepBoopBeep*

        Let me also mention:
        Our marketing coordinator (MC) is responsible for the following:
        Creating a marketing calendar in our task management program, and adjusting it as necessary
        Creating content for our blog (we have bloggers that write for us, so our MC corresponds with them about due dates and topics)
        Making sure content is regularly posted on facebook
        Coming up with marketing strategies (important to know the distinction between strategies and tactics) for our collection launches
        editing pictures & putting together email campaigns
        What content should go on our instagram feed & stories

        1. Tara*

          A lot of roles also get social media stacked on top of them, rather than being the focus. I’ve done social media in every professional job I had before this one, but it was never my full-time gig. If you don’t want to only do social media, a marketing position like the one BeepBoop outlined that includes social media could be great. If you only want to do social media, that will probably be for a bigger org who will want you to have some experience. While you’re trying to build your skills, think about working in a marketing space, or just working communications or communications adjacent in an industry you like.

          1. Office Worker*

            One interesting thing in advertising is that sometimes you have one creative agency that creates the content/does organic posts, and then another buying/planning agency who has a digital team that sets up the paid campaigns and comes up with strategy for paid content.

    7. EmmBee*

      I’m a VP of social media with a team of 5 (and oversight of another 25+ people). We’re a $2b company that produces a ton of content. Happy to answer any specific Qs!

    8. AliceBD*

      I’m social media strategist for a health system; I just do one state (we’re in several states) but the biggest number of hospitals (8 in total) are here, the largest number of employees, etc. I just started this summer and it had not been handled well before I came, so I’m undoing a lot of things and making new things.

      I plan content and post it for our social channels, mostly for the accounts for the two big metro areas we are in. I ghost-write content for our CEO’s Twitter, which I also post (the CEO approves it first). Sometimes I don’t get to do best practices — the ghost-written content could be a lot better but the CEO doesn’t like a more conversational and personal style, so that Twitter account stays sounding very corporate. The content can be stuff sent directly to me from our PR team, employee recognition or other fun things sent to me by people at our various locations, content I come up with to promote a specific campaign we’re doing — all kinds of things. I use scheduling a lot — native scheduling on Facebook, and Hootsuite for Twitter and Instagram.

      I monitor the comments/reviews/messages and respond as needed and as possible. As a health system we have some privacy/legal restrictions that I didn’t encounter when I was doing the social media for a consumer brand, so lots of times the message I send is just “We’re sorry you’re upset, please call this number” because that is all I can do that is cleared by legal.

      Some days I am in meetings with other marketing people talking with teams about how we can promote the thing they need to promote. Some days I spend 4 hours trying to figure out what in the world people were doing on our YouTube channel and start fixing it so it is more useful (pro tip: don’t just call a video the name of the person interviewed and have no other description or tags or anything and expect people to magically find it). Other days I am just making schedules and writing content. I also create graphics like Facebook event cover photos or a testimonial quote for Instagram about how meaningful one of our services was for a family.

      Just yesterday I was asked to start writing some blogs, but this is the first time I was hired from the beginning to do social media and only social media and was not also responsible for a good portion of phone customer service, in charge of making sure there were daily blog posts, and lots of other things. We also have a TON of social media accounts, which I am working on paring down.

      I want to get more into doing video, so I’ve been scheduling some Facebook Lives and am waiting to get some things to do better videos; what I’ve requested has been approved but I have to wait to go through channels for it.

      One thing that is helpful is to be able to explain why something isn’t appropriate for social media and why you can’t post XYZ thing. A lot of my job is communicating why I can’t post these photos of random people at an event (we require photo releases), why we can’t use that graphic from another organization, why this event is not acceptable to promote on our social channels, and doing it all diplomatically to people much higher than I am in the hierarchy.

    9. SubwayFan*

      Late to this party, but I manage social strategy for a division of a large multinational company. The one thing that I see as the biggest perk in someone working on social is the ability to write really good social copy, daily, in minimal time. I can teach the tools to anyone, but the writing is really hard. It must be engaging, match brand voice, and sound exciting, not boring, fit in magic keywords, etc.

  9. Naptime Enthusiast*

    I’m a on a nonprofit board of directors where we are all volunteers, and I have a number of volunteers that report to me that are regional directors. Half of them are awesome, some are meh, and a select few are completely AWOL. I used to be one of the regional volunteers before landing in my current position, and there is a history of being notoriously unresponsive and difficult or just burning out during the term. I’m trying to turn that around completely with our next group. The application has been updated to make the expectations of the position much more explicit, and there is mandatory training and 1-on-1 meetings I will be hosting as well.

    Other volunteers that manage volunteers: is there anything else that you do to make your team more accountable that work well? We all have full-time jobs in different industries on top of these volunteer responsibilities, and while full-time jobs and family obligations take priority over these volunteer positions at times, the expectation is that they will let me know they’re sick/have a family emergency/have a crazy work schedule coming up and send any of their work directly to me so I can either cover it in their absence or redistribute it among other volunteers but this hasn’t really been happening.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Honestly I think you’re doing everything right by taking the new steps you mentioned – laying out the expectations more clearly will fend off folks who just want a resume booster (for the most part), and mandatory training + 1:1s will probably cut down on the less-committed participants even more.

      I would say making clear that you expect people to notify you when life gets in the way is necessary, as is specifically delegating certain work to other individuals when that happens (as opposed to allowing people to volunteer to do certain tasks to pick up the slack).

      1. CM*

        Agreed! Also, I think the breakdown you mentioned: “Half of them are awesome, some are meh, and a select few are completely AWOL” is good for an all-volunteer board. You’ll always have the meh/AWOL people. The one other thing I’d suggest is to manage the AWOL people out of their positions by kindly saying something like, “I understand that in a volunteer position like this, it’s really hard to find time to focus on board activities. I appreciate your service, and I think it’s time to look for someone new for this position so that we can move X project forward. What you think would be a good timeline for that?” And don’t wait too long to have those conversations. Difficult as they are, often people are relieved, especially if you assure them that you appreciate what they contributed and there are no hard feelings, this is just part of the normal process of running an organization.

        1. TheWanderingRabbit*

          This is great advice! . I tend to find that some of my AWOL volunteers often go AWOL toward the end of their term limit, so double check your bylaws and make sure you know when people’s time is up. It’s easier for me to manage volunteers if I have a specific timeframe to work with (ie-I know Jane will be gone in June anyway, so I can implement a, b and c now in order to make the last few months easier). Certainly if people have a long term left on the board, you’ll want to nip things in the bud soon. I think the script CM gave you is great. What you have already put in place now is excellent, and if you lay out specifics in the beginning I think you can weed out some problems before they happen. Good luck!

    2. Flinty*

      Sounds like you’re doing all the right things! The only thing I would say is that that if you’re finding people are not being proactive about letting you know when they can’t do something, is maybe reach out to them first on an agreed-upon basis? Like “here is X task, thanks so much for doing about this, I’ll reach out in a couple weeks to see how it’s going or if you have any questions.”

      My main takeaway from being a volunteer manager is to keep the ball in your court as much as possible (ex: when I would meet with prospective volunteers, I took their info and said I would follow up, I wouldn’t hand them my card and tell them to let me know if they want to volunteer.)

      2. zora*

        Yes, I would do more frequent follow ups and break tasks into smaller pieces. It will help them do their tasks better, honestly, but then you find out sooner in the process if something isn’t getting done and have an opportunity to jump in and take it over.

    3. Goya de la Mancha*

      If burnout is the issue, it’s time to break things up.
      It’s easy for me (and most people I’d assume) to sign up and work a 2 hour shift then a 6 hour shift.
      It’s easier for me to do YZ instead of WXYZ. Then Bob can do WX and we can both do a better job on both of our tasks.

      It creates a little more work on the Admin side of this, but I think your volunteers would have an easier time keeping their commitments.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Consider a policy of no show and no call means x happens. Where x can be you get bumped to the bottom of the list of volunteers on rotation or x could be they are moved to a less key position. You could say after two or three failures to show/call, rather than dinging them on the first failure.

      Put the policy in writing and give them a copy. Along with that give them contact numbers if they need to find a fill-in person. Make sure they have their supervisor’s contact info.

      I hate saying this but you may actually have to demote/remove someone before the rest start following the rules. Rumor mill will make sure that everyone knows Sue lost her position because of no show/no calls.

  10. Lil Fidget*

    I have a meta-question for the audience: how do you use the open thread to find value? I get overwhelmed by the number of comments, and I can’t read them all or keep refreshing every hour to stay on top of the new posts. I know there’s great conversations happening (I love this site and am a frequent commenter right now, as work is slow) but how do you find them on a thread of over 1000 voices?

    1. Yorick*

      If the main post isn’t something I want to read through, I collapse the replies and move on. At some point I start reading from the bottom, but I’m sure I miss a lot of interesting things in the middle that way.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I think this is the functionality I’m not using. I knew you could collapse the thread but didn’t even think to apply it here on this page. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you to all the commenters who are making this point!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          And just to make sure you know, there’s a collapse-all function at the top of the comments, so you don’t have to close them all individually. There’s also a checkbox to set that as your preference site-wide (although be aware that if you do that, when you leave a reply, it will just take you to the top of the page rather than to the comment you just left, since that piece of the page will have stayed collapsed, per your site-wide preference).

          2. Jerry Vandesic*

            That’s exactly what I do with this thread. Collapse all at the top, and then open the ones that look interesting.

          3. Newbie Three Times*

            So I’m a new manager, new to the site, and new to this Friday open thread — I just discovered it so I’ll be back next week! — but considering the popularity of this thread, and it’s treasure trove of great advice, is there a reason there isn’t a full-blown forums? I LONG for such a resource, but have never found something with as high a quality of responses as this blog — certainly from Alison, but many other intelligent voices here as well.

            As a newbie, I should probably have tried harder to see if this question was addressed elsewhere, Apologies if this has been explained, if it has disregard, and I will find it.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Thanks for asking! Forums take a lot of work to run, and ultimately it’s too far outside of my mission here — which is really just to give workplace advice, and not so much to provide a discussion forum, although that’s turned into a nice side effect. I’d worry that separate forums would lead to me hosting unmoderated discussion boards where I couldn’t really vouch for the quality of the advice. And last, I will note that the owner of Offbeat Empire has said that creating forums was her worst business decision because it cannibalized her traffic from the places where she wanted it and turned into a monster that required constant resources. So there’s that as well!

      2. Julianne*

        I do the same. I also search for keywords related to my profession, or to a topic I want to read about, and read those posts (if they exist) first.

      4. Optimistic Prime*

        This is how I do as well. In fact, I use the collapse all on the weekend posts, so that I only see top-level comments.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Generally I collapse all threads and skim for top-levels that interest me! If I ping to ‘oh, this looks like something I might be interested in’ then I selectively expand just that thread.

    4. Just my 2 cents*

      I collapse all comment threads and skim through. If I find something that’s relevant to me, I’ll expand and read through the comments. I don’t try to stay on top of it throughout the day – I’ll just check it once, a bit later in the day, or sometimes on Saturday. Of course this means I’m not participating in conversations.

    5. Snark*

      I end up focusing on a few conversations, which I relocate by Ctrl-F’ing my name, and I just know I’m not going to read or even see more than 10% of the thread.

      1. Curious Cat*

        +1 to this method. I find a few threads I enjoy reading or commenting on and then check back in every so often.

    6. Someone else*

      It depends. Some weeks I don’t find it overwhelming and really do just read through everything. Others I have a specific question and either search for keywords in case someone asked something similar, or just post my own and then follow that. Sometimes I skim until I see something that sticks out or looks interesting. Sometimes I read continuously until my eyes get tired and then I bail. It varies.

    7. k.k*

      I know that I won’t read everything, and basically bop around skimming topics. Sometimes I use a ctrl+f search to look for key words that might interest me or I can be helpful with (my industry, job title, etc). I also like to go in later in the day and go right to the bottom, since those stragglers tend to get less attention.

    8. it_guy*

      I usually collapse all of the replies and look at the topic of the individual posts. If it it looks interesting, I’ll dive headfirst into the replies.

    10. Alex*

      My job is really slow so I usually have time to browse through most of the posts. I also occasionally do a Ctrl + F to search for keywords of topics that interest me. Obviously if I post a question I am keen to see all the responses. I usually check back Saturday or Monday morning to see if there’s anything I might have missed. I enjoy getting anonymous feedback from people with different perspectives or advice.

    11. Happy Lurker*

      Lil Fidget. That’s a great question and one I have also been struggling with.
      I appreciate reading everyone’s responses. It appears there are a few different ways that people are finding things, etc. and I tend to do many of the same things.
      I did see a couple months back, maybe. Someone said they saved a particular comment or something, so they could go back later and read from there and down. But I haven’t successfully tried that yet.

    12. Teapot librarian*

      It depends on how close to 11 I’m able to start reading. Today I was in meetings until about 1:30 so I got here and there were almost 1000 comments already. I did a lot of the collapsing replies and just reading the top level comment until I got to your question :-) If I get here close to 11, I’ll read more thoroughly and them am able to use the blue “unread comment” line when I come back.
      If I’ve commented, I’ll search in the page for my username so that I can come back and read other replies to the same comment.
      And I usually will also search for some of the more “famous” folks (like Snark, or fposte who is great about commenting on my posts).

    13. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I collapse all the threads (by default) and verrrrry quickly scan (like under 5 seconds per post) each post. I respond to those that are interesting to me, and when I come back I Ctrl-F to find my name and stay in any conversations that develop.

      I also often open all the threads and search for “Ask a Manager” and other commenters who have a history of making thoughtful, valuable comments.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          lol!

          I actually search for “ask a man” because I’m too lazy to type the rest of the word, and because it amuses me.

            2. Clever Anonymous Name*

              I’ve trained myself to type “ask a mana” because I cringe if I miss that last letter.

    14. Falling Diphthong*

      1) Collapse all, and scan down the thread for those opening posts that resonate.
      2) If it’s already huge, go right to the bottom and see if any of the bottom posts resonate–they don’t get nearly as many replies, so it’s easier to launch a conversation rather than echo points already made.

    15. Windchime*

      I usually wait until noon or so (Pacific time) at the earliest to read the Friday open thread. I collapse all of the threads, and then read the “thread-starter” comment. If it concerns a topic I’m not interested in (non-profit funds gathering, etc), then I usually just skip it. Likewise if the post is a super long, run-on paragraph with no breaks. I don’t keep refreshing to see new posts within the threads, but I will sometimes refresh to see whole new threads.

      I’ve given up trying to read the entire thing. I just do the best I can and know that I might miss some good stuff.

    16. Ron McDon*

      And don’t forget that if you click on the date/time link under someone’s name you can save that thread to your reading list (on an i-pad); then when you go into your reading list you can just click on each one in turn and it takes you straight to that comment. That’s what I do if I comment on something or if it’s a thread I find early on and want to come back to later.

  11. Not the caterer*

    .
    I was reading an old post (an ask-the-readers type) about food in the office, and it surprised me that in so many offices there seem to be a race/fight over leftover food! In the last place I worked there’s usually a struggle to give away leftover food from meetings. We could only order catering when there’s over a certain number of external people attending, but they /always/ over-catered (rather than risk there not being enough to eat), and we always seem to get people who either have very small appetites or are too polite to take more.

    Back when I was the most junior person on the team I’d have to do a walk-around the (open plan) office with the giant tray of left over sandwiches/biscuits and offer them to people because it felt like such a waste to throw it all out! Luckily most people were happy to grab some snacks if you brought it to them (even though they couldn’t be bothered to go to the kitchen even after getting the ‘free food in the kitchen’ email lol!).

    (I’m not in the US, but I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing or just the culture in that particular office.)

    1. Lil Fidget*

      In our office, we have a lot of young people, maybe that’s a factor. They’re reasonably well paid but I’m guessing every free meal helps them. They will come with tupperware and clear a whole sandwich spread if you don’t stop them.

      1. Not the caterer*

        There are a lot of young people in that office as well (many of whom are from out of state)…I’m wondering whether they were just all more lazy (about running to the kitchen) than they were hungry…

    2. Just my 2 cents*

      In my company there is one department that is notorious for swarming on leftover food like locusts. No worries about leftovers here. Everyone likes free food.

      1. I See Real People*

        They’re lined up at the door outside the meeting at my office, waiting on the word “Go!”. Lol

      2. Hildegard Vonbingen*

        “Everyone likes free food.”

        I don’t. I prefer to eat what I like, when I like, in the kind of surroundings I like, in the company of folks whose companionship I enjoy if I’m eating with a group or as a couple. And I’m not the only one, although I realize folks like me are the minority for sure. Most of the free food on offer where I work isn’t stuff I want to eat, so I leave it. I’m not the only one in the office who takes this approach. Donuts, mediocre pizza, mediocre sandwiches…don’t want it. No, I don’t care if it’s free. I don’t want it.

        I’m baffled by folks who earn a good salary being so greedy about free food. If you’re struggling financially, that I certainly understand – free food would be highly desirable, I imagine. But well-paid folks with an ample food budget? I’m truly baffled. I just don’t get it. I live in the SF Bay Area, U.S., and I wonder if it’s a regional thing.

        1. Just my 2 cents*

          Sorry, I didn’t mean that as a universal statement – just referring to the people in my company.

          1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

            Going by the comments here, it’s not just people in your company. It’s an awful lot of people at a whole lot of companies! And I that is what I do not understand. But clearly it’s not a problem with just your office. I simply don’t understand people being rude about hogging free food, or stampeding to get it, which is apparently a common problem in many workplaces. I don’t get the need to be rude to others over something relatively minor (for most – I realize some people endure food insecurity), and I don’t understand the appeal of free food when I assume most folks can afford to buy their own food. I also don’t understand the appeal of mediocre or even downright lousy food, free or not. This truly baffles me, which is why I’m wondering if it’s a regional thing, or possibly industry-specific, or perhaps it has to do with certain corporate cultures? Beat me. Like I said, I’m baffled.

    3. BadPlanning*

      I’m with you — I’m in the US and there is rarely a food scramble at my job so I find the crazy food stories here fascinating. Usually we’re begging people to take leftovers. There’s a follow up to most food events of, “Hey folks, still some donuts left, come get an afternoon snack.”

      1. Not the caterer*

        If only we could match up the mad-scramble-for-food people with the can’t-get-rid-of-leftovers offices and all problems will be solved.

    4. WellRed*

      We often have leftovers that take days to get rid of some things (I threw out the last wedge of cake last week).

    5. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      Interesting. I went to a networking event last night and an hour after it started, no one was touching the sandwiches. Just grabbing drinks or some fruit slices. I was actively hungry, so I did, but I felt so self-conscious despite the caterer encouraging me to eat. It was exactly the opposite of yesterday’s letter. It’s probably always safer to blend in with what most people seem to be doing in those kinds of contexts.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah I feel like it’s specific to work contexts that people get weird about food. Because you’re trapped at your desk all day, either bored or stressed out, and then you hear that there’s pizza / subs / cookies (but not very many, only enough for the first people who get there!) or whatever and then there’s this STAMPPEEEEDD.

      2. Ellen Ripley*

        I have been to so many meetings and events where less than 10% of the drinks and snacks get taken. I think it’s maybe a fear of awkwardness around people you don’t know well and are trying to impress. I guess at your own office people don’t care anymore? ;)

      1. 2 Cents*

        Also at an ad agency, also a stampede for leftover food. If it’s left on a table in the kitchen with no note saying otherwise, it’s fair game!

    7. tink*

      My workplace is similarly bad about eating the “last” of something. Example, we got brought a nice box of chocolates and a SINGLE PIECE sat in the box for almost a week before I was like “this is a waste of table space”, ate the chocolate, and tossed the box. It happens with cookies and stuff too.

      1. Em.*

        At my workplace people will often bring in bags of chips that become communal–we had to institute a policy that if you were going to leave a handful or less in the bag, you have to finish it!

      2. Jillociraptor*

        There is a grand Minnesotan tradition of cutting the remaining brownie in half forever to avoid taking the last piece.

        2. Your Weird Uncle*

          At my house this is done by the kids to avoid having to wash up or recyle the pan/plate/carton.

      3. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I remember hearing or reading somewhere that this is an especially midwestern trait. We do the same thing here. The last piece of cake or cookie or donut will be there until someone throws it away.

        This does not apply to coffee. The coffee pot empties within seconds it seems.

        1. HH*

          Ha, great point – in some places no one wants the last baked good to the point of cutting it in successively smaller halves…

          … but people are often happy to take the last of the coffee and ghost without making more. Huh.

    8. MLB*

      Interesting…at my last company we had about 100 in my department. If we had leftover food it was put in the kitchen or a common area, and an email was sent. It would be gone immediately. In fact if I had leftover food at home from a party and wanted to get rid of it, I would take it to the office.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        We had a free-to-all table in the break room on my floor at Exjob. If you had leftovers, they went on that table and everything on it was assumed to be for everyone.

        I had bought a ton of cheese not too long before my 2015 UK trip before I realized there was no way in hell I could eat it all before I left, nor would it last until I got home. So I made a cheese-and-cracker tray and took it to work, along with a jar of olives and some grapes. By the end of the day, there were three olives and a few grapes left and nothing else. :)

    9. zora*

      I think it depends on the people and their own personal food habits. I currently work in an office where most of my coworkers are trained dietitians and people are pretty picky about what they eat. So often there are pastries leftover, because most people don’t want to eat them just because they are free. Junk food is only rarely appreciated here, people will only eat leftovers if they are healthy and easy to save for a couple of days.

    10. kas*

      I’m always surprised reading those stories. Everyone in my office is pretty respectful when it comes to catered food. Everyone gets their food and waits until the last person gets theirs before lining up for seconds. We often have food left over after meetings and it usually sits in the lunch room all day (sometimes two days).

      One person bakes treats for everyone and will send an email around lunch time letting everyone know she left baked goods in the lunch room. My coworkers seem to love her treats as there’s always a mad dash to the lunch room to grab a piece but even then, people only grab 1 from what I’ve seen.

    11. Lynca*

      Our Office doesn’t really have an issue with people racing/fighting for the leftovers. But that is purely because we always have too much. If we didn’t I could see that being an issue.

    12. Banana*

      So funny! In my office you can get rid of almost anything.

      Except maybe salad. Lol. But donuts?? I’ve never seen a donut get thrown out in my office. Ever.

      I kind of really like that we totally don’t have a “Oh, no, I really shouldn’t….” attitude in my office about food. Most people happily take treats and applaud taking seconds.

    13. Misa*

      I never had this issue elsewhere but where I am now I think they are used to having food leftovers all the time… Even though we are non-profit… I was once scolded by someone for putting leftovers in the kitchen and not bringing it back to our area… HR has had to send out an email because people see food and will take food even BEFORE the meeting has taken place… And since I’m usually the one setting things up and cleaning up for my dept’s meeting the comments I get (so when can we stop by???) and the running in to grab things but never helping to clean up is beyond… As I’m packing things up I’ve had people unpack things to take food… I once had someone I don’t like at all ask me if I needed help with a big meeting… Everything was done, I couldn’t get why she was hovering now, I got a little annoyed… And someone else told me she wanted food…

      Have I mentioned how tasteless I find this nonsense? And these are adults who are paid a decent wage, they mostly all eat out every day so money is not the issue… If they only knew how they look!

  12. College Career Counselor*

    Have you asked others in the office what they are doing? Has anyone else found a registry? Maybe you can go in on an “office gift” with them? I’m sorry I don’t have more concrete suggestions!

  13. Nervous Accountant*

    Happy to report that aside from a few eye rolls this wasn’t a bad week. I was put back on reviews, had a call with the dingleberry client and just handled my Sh*t. And a nice thing was that I got paid! I was fully expecting a $0 paycheck bc I had no PTO to cover my 3 weeks away—bereavement lasted only 3 days & I didn’t qualify for FMLA or NYFL, but they gave me half pay. So that was nice. and 10 days w/o a Xanax!

    So there was one thing that had me seeing red, but in a “what a jerk” rather than a “I want to quit NOW” way.

    My manager was working remotely on Thursday. I was checking in with him throughout the day, and my coworker from another team came by and said “[mgr] is pissed cz your team is a sh*tshow right now.”
    I saw RED bc
    1. No one says that about my team esp when its not true. No one was goofing off, we’re all putting our heads down and working our a$$es off
    2. mgr never even said that. I told him about what he said and he said he never said that. In fact, 3 different people checked in with him (our team leader, another CW on our team and myself) and said everything was fine.
    3. EVEN MY BOSS SAID EVERYTHING WAS FINE and no one was goofing off.

    This wasn’t the normal good natured teasing but some really really shady crap. I thought this dude was a work friend. Mgr said he’s being a jerk but leave it alone and not waste my anger on it.

    I don’t feel like quitting on the spot anymore but getting through the rest of the season/year is just a little more bearable right now and I can leave on my own terms when the time comes.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Some people like sowing seeds of discord because it makes other people have to respond to them. These people are attention-seeking assholes.

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        To make himself look good w our boss. He works on her team but he and I are the same level (supervisors). He’s constantly being pooped on by our boss (the one who called me stupid for asking for more $$). She also treats mine and managers team like the unwanted stepchild.

            1. Boredatwork*

              Dude – I’ve been there. Co-workers behavior makes perfect sense, I bet you’re both up for manager in the next year. I’ve been in industry for a few years now, where working late means 6:00 pm.

    2. Observer*

      You’re manager is right-CW is being a jerk, and you’re best of not letting it eat at you. Otoh, you now know that this is a person who you cannot trust, so that’s useful. If the persons says something that could be actionable, CHECK BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING. Because you KNOW that they will say things that are NOT TRUE.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Coworker, I checked with Boss and neither one of us is clear on where you got the idea that my team is a s-show right now. Just wanted to let you know that I followed up on that.”

      This is the way I have handled this crap. Just like you did, I go back to the source, “I heard X, what’s up.” Then when I find out it’s not true I go back to the cohort, “Just to let you know I followed up on what you were saying.”

      When we are willing to confront we can end a lot of crap for once and for all. People like this do not like it when we check with the source. They would much prefer we cower in fear.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I did talk to him, when he came to ask me for Tylenol I told him off for calling us that. He seemed to get the message after that. He did a douchey thing but I can’t stay mad at him for too long. All’s well that ends well I guess :-)

  14. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Totally just venting because there is LITERALLY nothing else I can do. It’s like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

    We have a massive project for an exceptionally difficult client. He is the Fergus to end all Fergi. It has been a nightmare since the beginning (almost 6 months ago). He has been verbally abusive to our staff and threatened to sue on numerous occasions.

    The original project manager left and it has been handed off to someone who has been with the company for over a year, but only in the project manager role for about 4 months. He is at his wits end. His GrandBoss (my boss) is bending over backwards and making the situation worse. He promised the client things that are impossible. Fergus is demanding that we follow through on all these things (I do not blame him for this, we said it was possible). Now, we are having to short change other clients and coworkers to meet the demands because Boss said it was possible.

    NOW to make it work, Boss is contemplating bringing back people who were fired.

    It’s a colossal mess. And it’s so aggravating. I watched one coworker leave over it. I’m pretty sure we’re going to lose another. I get that clients are important. But if you have no staff, you have no one to help those clients.

    2. Curious Cat*

      Christ. I’m sorry, that sounds absolutely terrible. 100% sending good vibes your way! And the reminder that it’s Friday and that weekend is here (3-day weekend if you’re in the US and your company observes President’s Day!)

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I know. Our new office motto is, essentially, “Never Say No”. Which…I’m sorry. NO. Sometimes that has to be the answer. Obviously you can’t say it all the time. But to insist that everything can be done is ridiculous.

        1. The Tin Man*

          It literally is? That’s a fat load of nonsense. Optimizing and prioritizing inherently means saying “No” to things!

      2. Future Analyst*

        Yes, this, so much. It’s the worst when it’s being done by someone who has no hand in making sure the actual work gets done.

      3. only acting normal*

        Too too many.
        I was cc’d on an email chain this week where I was pleased to see the customer reply with “No, please don’t do X” because someone our end was trying too hard to be helpful with X. I was with the customer, X would have been a *bad* idea, but not my circus, not my monkeys (this time, thankfully).

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            Thank you. I’m trying to figure out a way to let it casually slip to my GrandBoss, (coworkers’ Great GrandBoss) because he’s a bulldog and they’ve intentionally kept this from him so it doesn’t blow up.

            I won’t because it’s not my place. But I’d like to see someone actually DO SOMETHING.

    4. Jules the Third*

      Internet hugs – overpromising sucks.

      If you want advice: Is there any chance you can ask Fergus what his top priority (or 3) is? I know ‘all of it’ is a likely answer, but ‘ha ha very funny, now what’s your real answer’ sometimes works to redirect Fergi into productive channels. Then cram to get the top 1- 2 priorities finished. When you hand those to Fergus, include a new, extended, and hopefully accurate timeline for the rest of the project.

      Resist the ‘hiring back fired person’ and maybe talk up ‘fresh eyes and new energy’ as the desired traits in the new person…

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Oh, I have no interaction with Fergus. I am but a wee peon and bystander. I’m close with a few people on the project so I know what’s going on.

        His priorities change daily. He’s moved the timeline up on us, even though the contract says otherwise. When he contradicts himself, it turns into “That’s not my problem. That’s a you problem.” And if we point out that something is impossible due to, oh, weather or something that we cannot control he calls all levels of management and cusses them out. I’ve seen the milder emails so I know none of this is exaggerated.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Wow! Sounds like a joy (not). Amazing that boss cannot admit to being wrong and seeing he is losing employee(s) over this, has to consider re-hiring (even if only temporarily) fired employees, and is short-changing other clients, which means they might chose to go elsewhere.

          As an internet bystander: Internet hugs and best wishes. And maybe an update when this is over (or implodes) or whatever happens next!

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            When we walked out to our cars yesterday, I told coworker that if he needs a reference to let me know. I can’t actually help, but figured I could at least offer that.

            I could tell countless stories about this already. It’s been a sh!tshow since the beginning. And we’ve just been pushed around. And I don’t think Boss realizes how disheartening and demoralizing it is to be shown that we aren’t even remotely prioritized.

            1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

              At this rate the Boss isn’t going to have a company by the end of this. And now all his employees have seen what a weak-spined person he is in bending over backwards for the client and not going to bat for his team. If he does this now, he’ll do it every time so hey! there is potentially another Fergus after this one!

    5. YesterdaysGoon*

      If you can, disengage from the situtation.
      Own your work. Put urgency on your actions. But do not accept stress regarding the results of the actions.
      Kinda like when you are sprinting like you are trying to break the sound barrier, so you run all out. But you don’t get stressed because you didn’t break the sound barrier. Sure you ran flat out at your best, striving for a new record. But in the end you just walk away panting, weary, content you did your best on a task with an impossible goal.

      If boss wants to bring back people to solve the problem he created, fine. If boss wants to allot resources to this one client to the detriment of the other clients – it is his call to make, even if it seems ill-advised. You can only own your own choices.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Oh, I don’t. I’m really pretty far removed. Except for the fact it is literally impacting the entire office. I’ve helped out as much as I can in my position, which is pretty limited in scope. It’s because I’m friends with this project manager that I know as much as I do.

        I’m not the one getting screamed at by the client because I had the audacity to take a day off. I’m also not getting hung out to dry by management. So the least I can do is listen when someone vents to me.

        It makes me sad, though. We could be absolutely stellar, but management doesn’t care.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          At some point this stopped being a story about a bad client and started being a story about bad management.

          I am very sorry. I hope a path through this opens up very soon.

  15. Internal candidate*

    So this is just an update. I asked questions here a few weeks in a row about an internal job I was applying for. Well…

    I got the job!!

    They called me on Tuesday, asked me to interview on Wednesday, and told me I got the job on Thursday! I practically have whiplash!

    The job had a lot of applicants. It’s a popular department to want to work for, but hard to get into. I’ve applied to this department before but never landed an interview before. Reading this blog and the comments over the past couple of years definitely helped me through this process. (Like, I wouldn’t have sent a thank you email after the interview, because I didn’t know that was a thing!)

    So thanks Alison, and thanks commentariat, for your advice and support.

    So excited to start my new job in 2 weeks!!!

  16. hermit crab*

    Hey Victoria Nonprofit USA (and others who responded to my Americoprs question last week) – thank you again for your help!

    I found a VISTA posting in my city that looks right up my alley, and I submitted an application through the online system. Would it also be appropriate to email the point of contact listed in the system? I would never do that for an actual job, but this seems like a different situation. I guess I would just introduce myself, let her know that I applied through the online system, and state my specific interest in her position. Is that OK? I don’t know what she is able to see in the system.

    2. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t do it. I did an Americorps Summer Corp program, and you are mistaken if you think that it’s not an actual job. In a lot of cases, it’s harder and more competitive.

      1. KitKat*

        YES. Treat this as seriously in every way as an actual job. Americorps is great in that if you work hard and treat your term as one giant networking opportunity, you can get your foot in the door and jumpstart your nonprofit career. It’s tempting to take it less seriously/professionally because you’re getting paid so little, but from what I’ve seen with my fellow members, those who took that route (figuring they would try harder in their “real” job) basically ended up screwing themselves, since they had few prospects afterward.

      2. hermit crab*

        Yes, I certainly understand it’s a real job! I meant that from the perspective of “applying to an actual position” vs. “applying in general via a central clearinghouse that hiring managers apparently don’t really look at.”

    3. Snark*

      Nope. Follow the application process. Trying to end-run around the systems these programs have in place to screen applicants is usually damaging.

      1. hermit crab*

        I should add that, for a lot of these postings, the system specifically tells you to do this in the instructions for a given posting – in this particular case, it doesn’t specifically say that, but this appears to be something that people do, in general.

        1. Snark*

          Ohhhhhh. Hmm. I would personally still probably err on the side of following the instructions in this particular listing, but if it’s usually a done thing, and the contact information is provided, I could see a reasonable argument for contacting the person. And you don’t want to be the one who didn’t. Eeeeh. Man, not an easy call!

    4. GriefBacon*

      As a recent VISTA alum, I very much disagree with the other comments so far! I would reach out and send the contact person a modified cover letter. Partially because the AmeriCorps application system is so generic and you’re not able to tailor anything to specific positions, and partially because, in my experience, not all VISTA hiring managers are on their game in terms of checking the portal. (I just got an email this week about a VISTA position I’d applied for 7 months ago. They had no clue that my application was 7 months old until I pointed it out).

      Also, if you end up wanting to apply for other VISTA positions in the future, it may be worth emailing the contact person first. I’ve done this a couple times, when I needed some questions answered before formally applying, and I ended up with interviews for all of those positions (as opposed to maybe 20% of the ones I just submitted through the portal). The reality is that most people doing VISTA hiring have no desire to use the AmeriCorps system and will do as much of the hiring process as possible outside of it.

      1. KitKat*

        Yeah, this can definitely happen with the portal. I’m not sure I’d go so far as emailing anyone, but in general when applying for AC positions, I would check and see if the organization lists the position and has a way to apply through the org website, rather than through the portal. Because yeah, the portal can be a bit of a black hole, especially if the org hasn’t hosted ACs before or does most of their hiring through their own website.

      2. hermit crab*

        OK, thanks – that is along the lines of what I’d been reading online. I found the online application to be really limiting – summarizing a decade’s worth of progressive responsibility at my current company in 200 characters! It would be great to send an actual cover letter of some kind and indicate my interest in this specific position.

      3. Llama Wrangler*

        Yes, I agree that this is a case where it wouldn’t hurt to reach out. The point is to send materials and say “FYI, submitted these materials online. please let me know if you need anything else; hope to hear from you soon!” NOT that you’re asking for a leg up or to subvert their process. Which I think is what you were suggesting. Glad you found something great!

      4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I totally agree. When I was hiring VISTAs, I would definitely have taken note of the name of someone who had reached out to me outside the system (because the system is… not great).

        That being said, don’t ask for a conversation or a back-and-forth with lots of questions. You just want to convey something along the lines of “Hi, I’m hermit crab, I just applied through the portal and wanted to let you know how excited I am about the VISTA position at your org. Let me know if you have any questions for me, and I hope my application looks like a good fit.”

    5. Former VISTA*

      Don’t do that. The way to make VISTA work is to treat it like an actual job, not a glorified volunteering position.

      1. Safetykats*

        I guess I’m mystified about postings that actually list a contact person by name. Nowhere I’ve worked would ever do that. If you’re in the know, you can sometimes guess the hiring manager from the combination of the job location and description, but sometimes that still leaves you with a couple of possibilities.

        We work it this way on purpose, in large part because we are subject to government regulations on the hiring process (as, I think, Americorps would be). It can therefore be really problematic to have a hiring manager talking directly to a candidate outside the system. Now maybe the contact listed is just someone in HR, which wouldn’t be so problematic.

        In other words, I don’t know what to advise you. I think you probably can’t tell whether the contact listed is administrative or actually related to the job. I also can’t think why there would be a contact listed if it was forbidden to contact them. But I would try to keep any contact minimal; maybe just a short note to indicate you’ve applied. I definitely wouldn’t send a bunch of additional info; if and when they want that, they will ask. And the short note might even be off-base; I wouldn’t do that for any job I had applied for unless I had some previous interaction directly with the contact.

    6. AmeriCorps Mgr*

      I have hired a lot of AmeriCorp members over the last 20 years (almost 200 people)and I would suggest that you first look at the website for the non-profit and see if perhaps they have additional instructions for applying directly. Sometimes your application won’t be considered complete until the references complete their part on the AmeriCorps site. Most hiring managers for AmeriCorps programs are in recruitment mode – as the economy has gotten better the number of applicants has decreased and I truly think most would appreciate your sending a cover letter and resume directly or at least inquiring if they currently have open positions as for some programs there is a very slow process to change job postings on the americorps web site.

  17. Karen*

    The nature of my job is that we rotate to different positions around the company every two years. There’s a job posting for a semi-permanent role in an area that I previously worked in. I did a lot of good work there and I think I’d have a good chance at getting this role. The posting says that it’s to cover for someone for 18 months while they’re on maternity leave. The role would involve some training from the person before and after the maternity leave. One of the people I worked with in this department was very toxic and unprofessional. The posting doesn’t say the individual’s name that’s going on maternity leave. But, if it’s the toxic person I used to work with, then I have no interest in the role because I don’t want to interact with this person. Is it weird if I contact the person who posted the job and ask who it is that’s going on maternity leave that I would be replacing?

    1. Ainomiaka*

      Can you ask someone else in the area that you get along with as just a catch up/company chit-chat kind of conversation? That seems a lot lower stakes and less likely to come across as making a big weird/dramatic deal. I guess similar with the person posting if you are on good terms. More like “I saw you guys are having to cover leave. Who’s going to be out?”

      1. DDJ*

        Yes to this. You don’t want it to be anything more than chit chat. Since you did good work in that group I’m guessing there’s someone you’d be on friendly terms with. I’m guessing that these rotating positions are meant to help you network within the company, as well as to get you cross-trained in a number of different areas. Use that networking!

    2. Samiratou*

      Would you still need to interact with the toxic person if they aren’t the one going on maternity leave?

    3. The Tin Man*

      I get that the toxic person would have to train you, but doesn’t that mean that outside of initial training and when she’s coming back you wouldn’t need to work with her because she’d be out? Otherwise you would need to work with her.

      I suppose the idea of working one-on-one may overwhelm the fact that for most of that period she wouldn’t be there. Or I am way underestimating the contact between someone on parental leave and the person covering.

      1. Safetykats*

        Depending on how the leave is taken, and the country, there may be no contact at all. For example, if leave is taken as short-term disability in the US (and maternity leave can absolutely morph into short-term depending on the circumstances) doing anything that can be construed as work disqualifies you for leave. So the usual policy is no contact except with HR.

      2. Karen*

        The person is someone who lies about other people in order to make themselves look good and the other person look bad. It wouldn’t surprise me if I come back and she reports to her leader that I did things all wrong while she was out. That’s what I’m worried about. If it’s someone else who’s leaving, there would probably be limited interaction with this person and it’d be fine.

    4. Bea W*

      If it’s not the same person going on leave that means the toxic person will be there working with you. You probably don’t want that either. Even if you would not work much with the toxic person, just having one in the department who is allowed to behave that way unchecked by management can ruin the environment for everybody. You might want to rethink this position.

  18. Applesauced*

    I recently started going to the gym before work instead of after; I go directly from the gym to the office, so my sweaty gym clothes are stewing my gym bag for 8-10 hours. Any suggestions to avoid molding workout wear?
    A few important points:
    • I don’t drive to work or have a private office to air things out.
    • My gym doesn’t rent lockers.
    • I don’t have a washer/dryer at home, so can’t wash clothes every day.

    Can anyone recommend a deodorizer, dehumidifier, or a magic home remedy for day-old stinky workout stuff?

      1. bluelyon*

        Does your gym have a pool? Depending on how sweaty we’re talking I occasionally run my gym clothes through the machine designed to wring water out of a swim suit.
        Additionally – try to wear dryfit/exercise specific gear rather than cotton. That should generally dry in the time it takes to shower/change and then you just have dry (if crusty) clothes in the gym bag – they won’t mold and will smell a little less.

    2. grace*

      I swear by anything Arm & Hammer — when I used to do crew, that was the only thing that could help prevent my car from smelling like a gym locker. ;) I personally never found that dryer sheets helped, but it may for you.

      On another note though, I’d try just rinsing them out at home when you can and hanging them to dry – in the sink or shower, etc. It helps to at least rinse out some of the smell/bacteria before you can wash them, and I know I’ve worn gym pants a few times before a wash because of it.

      1. K.*

        I second this. I sweat a fair amount and I always hang my gym clothes up to dry when I get home, even if I’ve gone straight home. I do this so they won’t mildew all crumpled up in the hamper before I wash them (I wash once a week because I won’t do partial loads). My normal routine is to turn on the shower, rinse out the clothes, wring them dry, hang them up, then take the shower.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh man, flashbacks to marching band — our uniforms could usually stand on their own before the director would even start thinking about getting them dry-cleaned, and of course we’d be sweating like horses in the spring and early fall, so it was a question of whether you would hear us or smell us first.

      For the smell, spritzing unscented febreeze into the bag can keep things from getting totally gross until you can get the clothes home and air them out. A diluted white vinegar spray might also help — vinegar is crazy good at lifting odors, and it itself doesn’t leave any stench behind after evaporating.

      Also, is your gym bag nylon? A more breathable bag like cotton canvas might help your stuff wind up less atrocious.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Stinky marching band uniform high five! Ours were dry-cleaned annually, whether they needed it or not. ;)

    4. artgirl*

      Could you get one of those home dry cleaning bags (designed to go in the dryer, like woolite or dryel) and stick your sweaty gym clothes in there during the work day? Never tried this but maybe it would help?

    5. MechanicalPencil*

      In my dance days, shoes always went into a breathable cotton bag with cedar and a sealed container that held baking soda like for your fridge — there’s a name it that escapes me.

      1. Booknerd*

        Target sells these sachets that don’t have a smell, but are intended to remove smells and such from objects when you trap them together in a zipper bag. We use them at the library to get the cigarette/cat pee smell from our books and DVDs when they are returned by patrons who smoke/have cats. It works really well. If it can get the cat pee smell off, it can probably handle your gym sweat!

      2. Merula*

        Do you have a cube? I hang up my sweaty gym clothes under my desk by hooking hangers on the back side of the desk where the it meets the cube wall. (Is this set-up making sense? I don’t really know how to describe it.)

        This is out of sight as long as people aren’t crawling under my desk, but it gets enough air to dry out and not smell. (I did ask my neighbor, who I’m friendly with, to test whether she could smell anything.) If you were worried, you could spray Febreeze or some when you hang the clothes up.

    6. Samata*

      I do the same but don’t do anything outside of wash them with vinegar and baking soda combo each week and wash only workout clothes together. They are usually still wet when I pull them out at the end of the day but I haven’t had a mold problem and I have been doing this for over 10 years. I do put them in another bag within my gym bag so everything doesn’t smell.

      I also just ordered some of the charcoal packs that someone was talking about earlier in the week on a thread and the packet I got contained a couple small ones that am thinking about tossing in my shoes.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Some people swear by “Fabreze,” while others claim it smells as bad (or worse) than sweaty gym clothes.

    8. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I was going to the gym before work and having a similar issue. I just started unzipping my gym while at work – that seemed to allow enough air flow to get the workout gear dried out. If you go this route, maybe try shaking out or repositioning the clothes every coupld of hours through the day – so that no single spot is crushed within or all folded up.

    9. Sutemi*

      I bike to work (then shower and change) and I work in a cubicle. There is a shelf in the back bottom of my cube on which I spread my clothes out on fairly discreetly. It isn’t as good as hanging them up for air drying, but they are fairly unobtrusive and we have a lot of air flow here.

    10. Yetanotherjennifer*

      You may also want to try a detergent designed for athletic clothes. I’ve only just learned this exists so I can’t give you much detail. But sometimes fabrics can “remember” odor even after being washed and being used again, or even just being stored, reactivates and intensifies that odor. This is especially the case with mildew and skin oils. It doesn’t take much moisture in the air to reawaken mildew. It could also be that the detergent you’re using is feeding the bacteria that causes odors. The deodorant you use can also trap odors and require special laundry treatment to wash out.

    11. disconnect*

      Get some large ziplock bags (large enough to hold workout clothes) and a nylon laundry bag. When you’re done exercising, workout clothes go into the ziplock bag, then into your gym bag. When you get home at night, hang up workout clothes in the shower until they’re dry, then put them into the laundry bag. If you have to deal with odor, spray your clothes with vinegar and water when you hang them up (even better to do this immediately post workout, but then you need to bring more stuff with you). When you do laundry, add 1-2 C vinegar with the detergent, and toss the laundry bag in.

    12. AF*

      Could you use a mesh gear bag as a gym bag? I work swimming pools, and I have the TYR Big Mummy bag. I can leave soaking wet towels, clothes, and swimsuits in it sitting for a day or two and they won’t get moldy. That said, chlorine water is definitely a different odor than sweat.

    13. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I’ve got these things for my cross-country ski boots to dry the inside (pretty sure those things top sweaty marching band uniform!) – Boot Bananas. Its essentially baking soda and probably something else stuffed in a banana shape. great – sucks out all the moisture! You could potentially replicate by putting a ton of baking soda in a little beanbag like shape and putting between your clothes which are stored in something else, maybe like a packing cube for a suitcase that has a zipper.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I did soup a lot. It was easy enough to bring in a can and bowl and just nuke it. I didn’t really alter my diet while pregnant though so I would eat leftovers like normal. I don’t eat sushi anyway but I didn’t spot eating lunch meat and didn’t nuke that because eww. I did have a big box of saltines and supply of sprite/ginger ale in my office.

    2. Parenthetically*

      I craved protein but so much meat is SO not good when reheated. I just wanted a way to have steamy hot, super crunchy fried chicken at work every day, man! Pregnancy eating struggles are so real.

    3. Channel Z*

      The only thing I could eat was thai red curry. It was so weird. If not that, then it was the sick bag. The joys!

    5. Jules the Third*

      I was all watermelon all the time, so my lunches were easy – PB&J and a big container of watermelon.

    6. Thlayli*

      Ham and cheese sandwiches. If you’re not veggie you should be eating meat twice a day and one slice of ham at lunch is sufficient. Dairy is also very good for the baby so ham and cheese is perfect

    7. Science!*

      I have a homemade granola bar recipe that I love. It’s also my go-to nursing snack when I am on maternity leave. It starts with a base of honey, brown sugar and maple syrup and oats and then you can in any kind of mix in you like: sliced almonds, cashews, peanuts, dried fruit, chocolate chips, sunflower seeds…

      I would make a big pan and it would last a good two weeks in tupperware. For work I would would bring in a tupperware of it and munch on it all day. After my baby was born I kept a bowl of granola + a water bottle by wherever I set up, so if the baby was nursing or sleeping, I could still easily reach over and grab a bite.

    8. Anonymous Mama*

      I had a big thing for toasted bagels with cream cheese, fresh tomato, cucumber slices, salt and pepper. I literally ate that sandwich every day for weeks! Pregnancy is weird. I also consumed lots of hot dogs from my workplace cafeteria… the memory turns my stomach as I am now a vegetarian!

    9. Sopranistin*

      I’m 11 weeks along and still dealing with nausea, so I have to snack all day long. My current go-to is hummus with vegetables (cucumber, peppers, celery, carrots) and some kind of bread (whole wheat pita, crackers, or regular sandwich bread). I also pack fresh fruit and dry cereal. I went through a pb&j phase, when that’s all I could stomach.

    10. N.J.*

      I’m 8 weeks or so now. Because of the nausea it’s kinda hot or miss but I’ve been having lunch with granola bars, fruit cup with chia seeds, string cheese/stick cheese, cottage cheese, soup, grilled cheese sandwhich, snack type stuff. My sister with two kids swore by tomato soup with a package of ramen noodles mixed in. Also fruit, especially apples and bananas.

    11. Juli G.*

      I had nausea for over 2/3rds of my pregnancy and it was PB and Js for me. Or some carb and fruit combo (melon and mashed potatoes, strawberries and fries). My doctor was more concerned about keeping something down than being healthy though so I went in with much different intentions!

    12. Tea, please*

      Avocado toast. Avocados were the only green thing I could keep down for the first 20-25 weeks of my pregnancies. Sometimes I’d put a thin slice of cheddar under the avocado to mix it up.

    13. Nita*

      I went with bread, potato and fruit, but your mileage may vary. If you know what you crave, pack that. I really tried to avoid packing lunch because I never knew in advance what wouldn’t make me nauseous… but of course, eating out is expensive and could not be done every day.

    14. Hildegard Vonbingen*

      Seven-ounce container of Greek yogurt. Bring it to work in a refrigerated lunch bag, or buy some of those bendable strips of ice that you freeze in your home freezer. The yogurt is good for your gut, is easy to digest IF you’re not lactose intolerant, and is full of protein. I usually dump some fresh fruit on it (not that glop that many yogurts come with, because that’s not really fruit, it’s just sugary, thick syrup).

      1. JR*

        Lots of snacks! Eating a little bit all day long helped. I was going to the Pret across the street from my office like three times a day. I walked in two years later, for the first time since my son was born, and immediately felt like I had morning sickness!

  20. Stranger In A Familiar Land*

    I am probably mostly just venting. My role was recently switched to a different department. I have not yet physically moved myself because we have an interminable space shortage, and that’s fine–or so I thought. With a couple exceptions, my old team now seems to be ignoring me. I get that I’m not part of them anymore, but I’m still me and still in the exact same spot!

    It ranges from me pinging colleagues on our IM as I used to, and receiving no response (over multiple days), to just now–the cause of me writing this–a gaggle of them standing right outside my cube having a loud conversation about a non-work thing as if I weren’t here in this cube, on the damn phone, still existing. It just wasn’t usual. I’m at the end of a dead-end row.

    I don’t know. I have of course informed my new boss that I want to move when an appropriate space opens up. I guess in the meantime, I just…keep on keeping on? :/

    1. MLB*

      Sounds like you work with a bunch of petty passive aggressive jerks. If you’re able, throw some headphones on, ignore them and stop sending them IMs. You don’t need people like that in your life. In addition, I’d try to swing by your new department and start chatting with your new team if time allows it.

      1. DDJ*

        It’s so petty, and aside from that, it’s not like you applied for a position in a different department, your position was changed!

        Sounds like this might be a good move for you – hopefully your new colleagues will be better.

        1. Lance*

          Very much agreed; your former co-workers are a bunch of jerks who apparently only socialize with their own (because that makes sense in even a work context? some people…). If you haven’t yet, definitely get in touch with your new coworkers sometime; hopefully they’ll actually be good people.

          1. Stranger In A Familiar Land*

            Thank you all; you’ve made me feel much better. :)

            My new coworkers (whom I did know before in the general we-all-work-here sense) keep saying I should move near them! It’s really very heartening.

  21. MTinEurope*

    I have a question for the group: As a manager or person in the management team, how do you deal with a Director or CEO who has poor or limited vision? When they are extremely operational or micromanaging and this impacts how communicate with your team and structure the work.

    There is a lot of advice on how to give feedback or deal with poor performers but what if that poor performer is your own manager or CEO? And if they refuse to accept feedback?
    Maybe you have found a way to restructure problems or concerns?

    1. BeepBoopBeep*

      Sometimes, you can’t fix the issue. This is a hard one that I have had to deal with for a long time now, and unless the board or if they have someone higher than them is willing to replace them, it might not be fixable. We have a Director here that just has horrible work ethic, and unfortunately, that is something I don’t feel can be fixed after how much coaching we have provided them already. Can you elaborate on “poor or limited vision” ?

      Are you close with this Director/CEO ? I am close with the Director here who performs poorly, and they know they do. I often have blunt conversations with them about it, and it gets them fired up for a few days, and then its back to their old ways again. However, if you too have a good relationship with them, you might be able to just sit them down and say something like “I don’t like being the bad guy, but i’ve been put in a position where I have to look out for my team. I know if you were in my position you would do the same for us. [maybe not, idk] I really need you to do ABC, because of XYZ reasons. My position is here to support you (assuming this is the case if you report to them), so this is why i felt it was important to bring this to your attention. ” I think it is really important for you to outline specific examples in where they did X and then Y happened and how it affected the team’s due dates or operations (and the end result is a reflection of him/her, no?) Does this person have a history of taking feedback poorly ? In what way ?

    2. SophieChotek*

      Honestly if its the CEO, it strikes me as a culture/top-down issue. My company is like this – and I don’t think there is much to be done. I’m one of the newest hires (almost 3 years now) and I can see that the poor “vision” and leadership of the company and unwillingness to adapt will probably lead to more layoffs and (I would think in the next 3-5 years) eventually being forced to a) sell the company, b) bankruptcy, c) close the company or some combination thereof. I just try to keep my head down, get my job done, and am job searching before I get laid off or am out of a job due to no company…

    3. theletter*

      So when I first read your post, I thought by ‘poor or limited vision’ you meant she was losing her eyesight – If that’s the case I suggest looking for ‘managing up’ strategies. Basically, you don’t wait for them to ask for help, you just offer it or do research for them and present that.

      But if you mean the director doesn’t want to think about the future of the company or best business practices, the solution does not lie with fixing them but with moving forward with a new job search. When you have serious concerns about that grand plan of a CEO or the director of a department, that means you’ve lost faith in your leadership and the company, and there’s no point in staying on with the group aside from your paycheck.

    4. MTinEurope*

      Thanks for the feedback. Given the context of management, I meant vision in terms of leadership and strategy not eyesight :) This person often responds instead of has a vision for how we work or what needs to be achieved. People are so busy responding that no one really knows what the others are doing. It is a big mess but people work extra hard so stuff gets done but I see potential burnouts and good people about to leave.

      I have tried the feedback approach but with limited success. This person has been around a long time so they are established but the teams around must work double to get anything done. It is painful to watch when I know how much better it can be. I was brought in to help with this, but it is hard to help people change – everyone wants change but no one wants to change.

      I was hoping on some additional tips on managing up. But from the sounds of the comments, I think I need to just accept the reality and eventually move on. I am hoping to give it one more kick at the can. Will see.

  22. all aboard the anon train*

    I complain about this endlessly, but why don’t recruiters on LinkedIn understand that it’s incredibly annoying when they send a message saying they have a great opportunity, but give absolutely no details about the company, the location, or the job itself.

    These messages always say it’s a role “in my area” and then it turns out to be anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour commute outside the city (and usually a temp or contract role). AND THEN half the time the recruiters get annoyed that I’m not interested because I live in the city and am not interested in buying a car to commute outside the city, or because I don’t want to work as a temp/contract employee.

    I’d ignore the LinkedIn recruiters entirely if my job search wasn’t taking so long, but I honestly don’t understand why recruiters think vague, coy messages are going to attract potential candidates.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Have you turned on the feature to tell recruiters that you’re interested? You can specify what you’re looking for and it’ll help. Not going to be perfect because there’s so many crappy recruiters out there, but I found it did help.

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          go to the jobs section of linked in, that’s where I found it. I have regular, not premium.

    2. MLB*

      I would respond to their message with your requirements to save some time and possible frustration. I get emails from recruiters all the time with jobs in different states. They have a quota for contacts and most of the ones who have contacted me are offering something that’s not even close to what I would be interested in, like they didn’t even look at my resume.

    3. Jady*

      I hated that too. For awhile, to specifically headhunters, I pre-wrote a response that I could copy/paste into emails like that. I’d include my salary requirements, location requirements, permanent direct-hire job type, etc. And end it with something like ‘if you have any position that meets these criteria, please let me know!’

      Then again, I wasn’t desperate for a position and got sick of the spam, so I felt pretty comfortable being up-front with them. I was also getting a lot of mail for jobs that would require me to move across the country for a temp position! Who does that??

    4. Leela*

      Former recruiter here, with a possible answer. The short answer is: we have bosses just like everyone else, and sometimes we have bad ones. I knew that candidates hated this, and I brought it up to my boss several times but she insisted that it worked for her when she was recruiting (in the 90s, where there weren’t a billion staffing agencies honing in on the same candidates for the same jobs) so it would work now too. Of course it didn’t; if I got responses back at all, it was angry responses about how “this is why everyone hates recruiters” and ‘helpful tips’ about how I could be doing my job better, which included things I already knew and had brought up to my manager but was forbidden from doing.

      I was instructed to send out vague, sort-of-applied-to-everyone messages by the hundreds whenever we got a posting on the offchance that someone would bite, and then while waiting on those, do a more focused search, with my boss tearing her hair out wondering why we weren’t getting any responses.

      Also, while many people wouldn’t want a 20 mn – 1 hour commute, some don’t mind at all, some are looking to move anyway, we don’t really have a way of knowing without talking to the person. Someone might live on the outskirts of their listed city, closer to the city where the role is, or they might not live in it at all (like put “Seattle” when they live in greater Seattle, for example) and that’s all stuff we can’t know until we talk to someone.

      Trust me, I know it’s frustrating. I got e-mails like this by the hundreds when I was recruiting because whichever giant corporation near me was constantly hiring recruiters, and I ignored them too. But like most jobs that are any kind of customer facing, you’re only going to be talking to the person who’s carrying out the orders, not the person who made them.

      1. Coalea*

        I get that it can be hard to know people’s geographic/commuting preferences. My pet peeve is when I receive emails from recruiters about positions that are completely off base. For example, my profile clearly states that I am a “Senior Llama (Not Alpaca) Wrangler” and I’ve indicated that I would be interested in other Senior Llama Wrangler roles, or even Director of Llama Wrangling. I constantly get emails saying “I have this Alpaca Wrangling position open and I know that based on your profile, you’d be great!” or “If you’d be interested in a 6-month contract as a Junior Llama Groomer, please let me know when I can call you!”

        1. Leela*

          Yeah, we’re often instructed to do that too. Reason being for an agency, speed is really, really crucial to filling your roles, so we’re hoping someone might either be tangentially interested or, as they are a Llama wrangler, know an Alpaca wrangler because it’s somewhat similar. We lose out on thousands and thousands by other companies filling those roles before we can find someone, so there’s this desperate blanketing of information thrown out as quickly and carelessly as possible hoping someone bites.

          Ideally a recruiting agency would be about setting up people with good jobs for them, but the reality is that it’s often about filling roles quickly and, unfortunately, without a ton of thought to whether you’ve found the “right” person because unlike recruiting in house (which I’ve also done and like way better), you can’t afford to wait for a better fit to come along if you want to remain in business.

          Frankly I hate the notion of contracting (especially in the states where it’s legal to to a contract as a “try-before-you-by” way of getting to know your employee, which as far as I understand is illegal in Canada where I’m living now) and of staffing agencies because in order to be viable they’re better off screwing over/pissing off candidates to get roles filled as most people will stick out a contract for the resume and just leave as soon as it’s over, versus building a really good relationship with candidates and placing them in roles that are right for them, when we may not have access to those companies or those roles or we do but not now and have no idea when we will. The way the industry works currently, recruiters who don’t make their placement numbers get fired and agencies who don’t make a high number of placements over all can’t afford to stay in business; it leads to practices that range from annoying to shady to straight-up illegal (I was told not to call anyone back who didn’t have a white-sounding name because it would end up being a waste of time if they weren’t a citizen and in that time, we might have lost the position to another agency, or because one of the companies we worked with rejected literally every “Patel” or “Wang” or “Sanchez” we sent their way, regardless of how comparable/better their resume was against other candidates). 0/10 stars, do not miss that industry at all.

          1. Close Bracket*

            > it would end up being a waste of time if they weren’t a citizen

            O.o

            I get that, but were your bosses unaware that non-citizens who immigrate here have children here who they pass their name down to? And those children grow up and get college degrees and stuff? My mind boggles.

            1. Leela*

              Yeah it was pretty awful. Not to mention that someone with the last name “Smith” could be an immigrant but they were definitely defaulting to person of color = immigrant, white person = citizen.

  23. Fiennes*

    Can anyone recommend a good dictation app (for Apple) that will let me transfer copy to Pages or some other viable text format? Something weird has happened with Dragon; Dictate is great with listening, bad with copying or storing; and Google’s ineptitude with listening makes it unusable for me. Any advice and suggestions appreciated!

    1. anonagain*

      I’m commenting because I would also like to know. I was using Dragon, but it has started throwing tantrums.

  24. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

    At the end of 2017, the small financial nonprofit I worked for asked all employees to make a donation, with a goal of 100% staff giving. They circulated a list with the names of everyone who had donated. Our supervisor then sent an email telling us that we weren’t obligated to give, but that if we had been meaning to do so, not to forget to do it soon.

    There are only 30 some-odd employees, so it was clear from the list who had not donated. I didn’t mind making a donation, but I felt it odd for an employer to ask for donations from staff. But also the public pressure (with so few employees, it’s easy to see who hadn’t yet donates) was uncomfortable. What if someone was a little tight financially? Anyway, they reached 100% giving, but it was a bit heavy-handed. Still not sure how I feel about that.

    1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      I should say, the supervisor sent an email to those on her team that had not yet donated, reminding us to do so soon.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        TBH, this is par for the course at every nonprofit I’ve ever worked at. Even the system you describe about shaming the people who don’t give. It’s annoying as hell but super common. The caveat is, it doesn’t matter how much you give. It can be a dollar. It’s a box that nonprofits often need to check for either the board or external advertising (“100% of our employees give to the organization to support the cause!”).

    2. Enough*

      My husband had this with collections for the United Way years ago. He just gave $5. We had our own charity giving in the budget. But listis that everyone can see are not cool.

    3. k.k*

      I know this is common, but I think it sucks. I’m in nonprofit development, and luckily there seems to be a good understanding that many of our staff here are not in a position to donate. We try to make staff aware of our fundraising efforts and let them know they’re welcome to contribute, but I’ve never donated nor felt pressured to give. Maybe part of it is that we’re a direct service, and a good chunk of our staff is made of up part time service jobs as opposed to “professional” type positions.

    4. Lucky*

      When I served on a non-profit board, I recall that % of staff donating or joining an org as members (same thing in our org) was a line item on some grant applications and supposed to indicate staff engagement, as a measure of the org’s strong culture. If that were the case here, your supervisor could have explained that even a nominal donation ($5) would get your org to 100%.

        1. Kitkat*

          Yeah, my employer was pretty intense about it BUT they were really clear about why it was important and that we just needed to give a dollar. It’s definitely still weird though :)

      2. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

        That explanation would have made a big difference in how the whole thing felt.

    5. Elizabeth*

      Not strange at all to ask for a donation- % of staff that gives is looked at by funders. The publicly announcing who did or did not- that’s a little strange

    6. IKnowRight?*

      I work for a nonprofit, and I think this behavior is obnoxious, particularly because making public those who have given (and, by default, point out those who haven’t) is unkind for the reason you point out. I’ve been a development manager in the past, and still do fundraising tasks, and though I think it’s great when staff want and are able to give to the organization they work for, there’s no reason to try to force it.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      This is not an optional donation, it’s a mandatory donation.

      Ask once to let people know the option is available = optional.

      Follow up with people who did not pay yet and “remind” them = mandatory. Asking a second time is not a reminder it’s a demand.

    9. Clumsy Ninja*

      A non profit that I work for (not full time) did a similar thing. It was “voluntary,” but the employee in charge of that area hunted staff members down at work to “remind” them to donate. She also found people on social media to send messages “reminding” them to donate. I made a small donation just so that I wasn’t the one person holding out, but I told her flat out (and honestly!) that if they tried that again next year, I categorically WILL NOT donate. At all. I figured (and later found out for sure) that others were bothered by it but too concerned for their jobs to say so and rebel. I’m in a position where I can afford to spend some capital, so I did. And I will hold to it.

  25. AdAgencyChick*

    Managers who’ve had a mediocre person in a job: how did you decide whether to keep them, fire them, or move them to another place in the organization where they *actually* could do well (not push them off to let someone else deal with the same problems)?

    1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I’m in the public sector, so my process may not be super helpful to you.

      First, I figure out what value are they bringing to my division (what do they do well? Can I put them in a job sharing role to play with their strengths?) Second, I measure how much of my time I spend supervising the mediocre person compared to others. And the third piece is what’s the person’s attitude? My old boss had a great expression: there are golden retrievers and pit bulls–which would you rather manage?

      Two examples may help. For the last employee I fired, their work had too many errors and almost every project was turned in late or so close to a deadline that we couldn’t afford an error, and their work was never error free. My time commitment was significant–at least an hour a day trying to put them on the right track and fix their work. And their attitude was terrible–wanted to debate everything rather than learn; open hostility; rude; passive-aggressive; and had zero initiative.

      I’ve got a current employee on a PIP. We’re going to demote the employee and give the employee less difficult work. This person excels on dealing with clients but not much else. But my time commitment isn’t all that much because the employee listens when I do come in to address issues. Granted, the employee doesn’t implement what we talk about, but the employee is earnest during our discussions. And the employee is a really nice person. But for the performance issues, one of my favorite people in the office. Hopefully the employee can respond to the new role. But if not, then we might be looking at termination for this person.

      1. Budgieman*

        I had to reply to you just to say that I love your name…
        Ever since “Ed”, we have always referred to lettuce as “Le-Toose” in our house.
        Glad to see there is someone else out there with my kinda sense of humour!

    2. VioletCrumble*

      I had someone on my team that wasn’t performing well. I had an honest conversation with her asking her how she felt about her job; we then discussed issues that were impacting her performance. I asked her how happy she was in the job; how she felt on Sunday evening when it was time to come to work. She thought long and hard over a couple of weeks and decided the job wasn’t a good fit for her. There were aspects that she didn’t enjoy and would never enjoy/would never excel in – so she decided she would look for another position and ended up resigning within a couple of months.

      As part of the conversation I had told her that if she did wish to succeed in the position we work together to address issues; do some remedial/additional training so that she could master the tasks and succeed.

      Years ago I had someone on my team that wasn’t succeeding at basic tasks. When we talked, she indicated she wanted to learn and master an advanced portion of our workload. I fully supported her on that and worked with her to learn and master that portion of the job. She mastered it and the training and support also helped her to become proficient at the basic tasks.

      I’ve found that when “we” figure out what their interests/goals are – sometimes working together towards those goals helps people to shine in other areas as well. Conversely, letting someone know that there’s no shame in trying and then figuring out it’s not the right position allows them to make the best decision for themselves.

    3. Close Bracket*

      More importantly, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy did you decide to keep them when they make the rest of our lives so frustrating?

      Better yet, what qualities should I work on developing to become one of those mediocre workers who never seems to get fired?

      I honestly don’t know which is worse- working around their mediocre outputs or watching them not have repercussions for their mediocre outputs.

  26. anon for this*

    I work in publishing. For the past week, there’s been a big shake up in children’s/YA publishing about sexual harassment and several prominent male authors have been named, lost their agents or deals, or been banned from conferences and other events.

    I’ve worked in adult fiction, nonfiction, and academic publishing, and can attest to the rampant sexual harassment in all of these areas. There’s a general sense of uneasiness going around my current company about who’s going to break the news for adult publishing. Unfortunately, so many of us have been victims of sexual harassment in the industry, but it takes someone with a certain amount of recognition and capital to be the first to speak up. People are going to be more willing to believe a well-known female author over unknown editors and assistants and agents.

    When the news about Weinstein broke and then all the news about other celebrities, it was pretty upsetting to see how many people were willing to defend certain men accused of sexual harassment merely because they liked their movies or TV shows. I know it’s going to be the same for publishing because a lot of avid literary enthusiasts are very stubborn about acknowledging literature’s shady past and even shadier authors.

    There are popular male authors whose names give me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Several of them have frequently come up on AAM as people’s favorites. A handful of them have very popular TV/movie adaptations (and trust me, these are names you would recognize even if you’ve never read the books or watched the adaptations). I so often have people who want to gush over their favorite authors or the TV shows/movies that are adaptations of favorite novels or book series. And there are so many people who think publishing is just a happy place full of books and awkward lit geeks. It’s not.

    I’ve dealt with famous authors who are scum. Who have carefully crafted personas made up by the publishing house or their agents so they seem like sweethearts or harmless old men, but who are people I would never be alone in a room with. I’ve been blackmailed at a previous company for complaining to HR about sexual harassment. I’ve had to listen to people tell me why their favorite author couldn’t possibly have anything to do with sexual harassment after they’ve SEEN him harass women, and have had to sit in meetings where men talk about how graphic sexual assault scenes need to be detailed in fiction because it’s “historically accurate” or “provides character motive” and listen to them try to erase sexual harassment or assault from real life events in nonfiction books or textbooks.

    I don’t know that I’m looking for advice necessarily, but I just need an anonymous place to vent. But, for anyone who has worked in any entertainment industry, how do you deal with knowing these secrets and knowing no one will believe you because you’re not anyone important? Or having to listen to people gush about their favorite celebrities all while knowing that they’re horrible people? Or get defensive when they do learn their favorite celebrity has done awful things and start victim blaming? Because I know all of this will happen soon.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      To be fair, you have to forgive regular people who have no way to know about the character of a writer whose books they enjoy. Even if you know, there can be a divide – I know Hemingway is a jerk and also I can still enjoy his work (I just don’t gush about what an amazing human being he was).

      With that caveat, I could see a “shitty men in literature” list in google …

    2. Myrin*

      I’m so sorry, anon. That sounds terrible and like so many of you guys are carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders – I really wish it weren’t that way.

      I don’t have any advice but for what it’s worth, I’d believe you in a heartbeat. In fact, I’d love to know who all these terrible authors are you speak of so that I’ll never say a positive thing about them again (this is not a roundabout way of trying to get you to spill the beans! I know how hard that its. I just mean that if you or others were willing to speak out, I’d love to know about it). Jedi hugs to you, if you want them!

    3. lollyscrambler*

      I read the children’s publishing story with comments (I’m sure you know the one I mean). It seemed like a lot of people didn’t want to talk about the problems with male authors because of the view that boys will usually only read male authors and we need to encourage boys to read (I’m a librarian so boys reading is the holy grail for children’s librarians). Clearly we need to talk about why boys won’t read women, not protect male authors. I would definitely no longer support any male author or their work if I heard of allegations of harassment or worse and I’m sorry you are bracing for this storm. You’re right, it’s going to be so ugly.

      1. Jules the Third*

        My kid likes Ursula Vernon, though he does like Dragonbreath more than Harriet. But Castle Hangnail *rocks*. I’m trying to get him to Susan Cooper now, but the non-graphic novel is a tough lift.

        1. Rainy*

          This author sadly died a few years ago, but if he likes Ursula Vernon’s prose he will probably like Diana Wynne Jones. Most of her books are pretty solidly MG in my estimation and she has a great prose style and fantastic worldbuilding and characters. You don’t say how old he is but if Susan Cooper is a possibility DWJ is probably a go. Start him on Power of Three or the Chrestomanci books, or maybe The Homeward Bounders if he looks like growing up into an RPGer. :)

          You might recognize her name as the woman who wrote Howl’s Moving Castle and the sequels.

          1. DrWombat*

            I’d also suggest Diane Duane – the cast is evenly split male/female mostly, and there’s not only magic, but talking dogs, aliens, and lots of awesome adventures in her Young Wizards books. Plus her ebooks store is having a sale right now to deal with some unexpected expenses. I cannot rec her books highly enough – they also have great diversity in representation: the main male character is Latino, and his family plays a major role in the books, but there’s also a huge diversity later on as more people join the main cast. AFAIK the series has the only black autistic representation I’ve seen in fiction as well, and its handled very well in the revised ebook edition.

    4. selina kyle*

      I’m sorry anon for this. That is hard and I’ve read up on some of the recent scandals you’re referring to. I think it’s valid to say something when people gush but I know how exhausting that can be. I don’t have a ton of advice, just know that for every person victim blaming, there’s many of us who don’t agree with them.

    5. Jules the Third*

      Hey anon – yeah, it’s tough.

      The only bright side: You certainly have leverage right now that hasn’t been there in the past. It’s still risky – if you choose to do something, definitely approach it from ‘the public will recoil, we should get ahead of that’ rather than ‘he sucks and we should be moral’ . If you’re approaching it from ‘good of the company’ it’s harder (but of course, not impossible) to blame you.

      My fear is that it will pass, and people who know will kick themselves for not trying during this opportunity.

      Right now, journalists will at least listen and follow up, so that’s a path you have. The bad / good news is that these guys never do it just once, and the sheer *numbers* of women are making people take it seriously, even if the women are not famous – see Roy Moore.

      For gushing / defensive people – disengage as much as you can. Looking at gush / defense with pity for their disappointment / ignorance helps. IF you have the energy and safety to educate, then sure, do it, but those of us watching and participating know the economic risks whistleblowers face, and there’s a strong trend of ‘don’t judge the people not in power.’

      You might be able to bring up policy changes right now, if you hand a fairly completed draft to your mgmt and do a wide-eyed, ‘all that bad press! we don’t want to be late to this! here’s how we can reduce our risk!’

      These problems are actually endemic in all US industries, especially male-dominated ones. The glam ones are getting first hit, but yeah, it’s spreading across them all. What I’m watching is how people change the structures that allow it to happen in the first place, and that make people feel unsafe reporting. You probably can’t do much about the first, but maybe right now, you can get in some suggestions on the second.

      Good luck.

    6. Det. Charles Boyle*

      I’m so glad people are coming forward to tell the whole story on these terrible people. The lights are on and the cockroaches are scurrying.

    7. GG Two shoes*

      I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. I do wish you could name names. Even is I loved their work in the past, I would want to know so I don’t unwittingly support scum by attending movies or buy books by them. However, it’s not your responsibility to take the burden of their actions either way, naming or not. I wish we were at a place that you could share this and it could be dealt with without politics or mansplaining or victim blaming. I think we are getting there, but no yet.

    8. Short & Dumpy*

      It’s rough. I wish we were all comfortable just coming out and telling the truth…but I agree it’s far too dangerous. I was living in a small town and there was a civic leader that no one felt safe telling the truth about (including me). I couldn’t stand hearing people rave about him but would usually just do a quiet “I’ve had a different experience with him” or “he’s a little more complicated than the public image” with an ultra quick change of subject. Sometimes people pressed, but even those would back down when I just refused to engage. I like to think that a few more people started to pay attention to warning signs from him but I don’t know…I moved out of state and didn’t dare say anything specific before I left because I was still dealing with things like selling a house and couldn’t afford retaliation on that front.

    9. Anonsy*

      Harassers are good at hiding who they are generally. I’m currently dealing with a similar situation with a coworker, which I reported to my HR and also to the police (it’s quite special). HR has taken no actions whatsoever. The entire thing is nausea inducing. As a victim, there’s a sense of agency over self that is lost and a newfound level of paranoia and anxiety that grows that’s quite stunning to discover.

      If someone says something to you, I like Short & Dumpy’s suggestion of demurring with a “that’s not been my experience”. Generally, I just go for a “oh really?” or something equally mundane. It depends on how I’m feeling. However, I still have to fight back that sharp burst of panic and the feeling of my heart skipping a beat before I can say anything, so having any sort of semi-snappy response is generally beyond my ability. As an aside, while I can somewhat enjoy some awful people’s work on an intellectual level, realistically I know that they were terrible human beings. That’s part of what makes #MeToo a bit of a conundrum on some levels.

    10. Sweet Chariot*

      As someone who used to work in kid lit, I feel your pain. It will absolutely happen. There will absolutely be people who defend the actions of crappy men and will continue to do so until there’s no more financial reward.

      I think there’s an assumption that because these adults work in children’s literature, that they and those around them are somehow more pure of thought and action. But, the truth is that it’s exceptionally incestuous industry. The same people hop around from one publisher to another creating a very safe bubble for themselves. I imagine there would be more complaints, except it is such an insular field that there are very real consequences for those who speak out, in addition to the sadness of portraying a product and service that supports children in a negative light.

      It’s hard to burst the bubble and it’s a tough one to pop even if you tried. Just make sure you don’t get trapped inside.

      1. fposte*

        One irony to me is the bubble has also had its advantages, with lots of gay and lesbian people out to the publishing world years ago who were not then out publicly.

        1. Sweet Chariot*

          I see your point. The industry was exceptionally more tolerant than others in regard to LGBTQI+ folks, and continues to be. But, it also did a horrible job of including People of Color . And since I personally knew a couple of men involved in these recent situations, I also know how the bubble doesn’t protect anyone from people who abuse their power and if anything only seems to enhance their ability. (It also taught me how utterly oblivious I can be)

          1. fposte*

            Yup, absolutely. It’s just interesting to me, and I think it contributes to the “pas devant les enfants” approach of publishing that has made such a problem when it’s been a righteous approach in the past.

        2. anon for this*

          Speaking as a bi woman, I still struggle in the industry. I’ve had to fight so hard to even get approval for books that aren’t about straight white people and when there is a queer book or character, 9 times out of 10 it’s a white cis gay men because there’s still an assumption that that’s what people think of as “gay” and there’s a market for those types of characters with straight women.

          Adult fiction is pretty bad with representation. YA has made huge strides over the past decade, but adult fiction is still trying to catch up, primarily because the people in charge are still cishet white men who think “literature” is only worthy when it’s written by, for, and about people like them.

          It’s an accepting industry on the surface, but I’ve still faced some nasty discrimination and my friend has faced even worse situations.

    11. LilySparrow*

      I’m coming at this from a little different angle, because of my personal experience in my family. Not of sexual assault, per se, but of people who do reprehensible things.

      My grandparents were born in the 1890’s and 1900’s in the Deep South. My aunts & uncles were born in the 20’s, my parents in the 30’s. I’m a descendant of Confederate generals. The level of racism that I grew up surrounded by is breathtaking. Horrific.

      One of my grandfathers was a violent alcoholic, and my grandmother was a codependent enabler who was not only complicit in the physical abuse of her kids, she emotionally abused them as well.

      I didn’t know any of that when I was a child. I just loved my grandma. I have wonderful memories of snuggling on her lap, and learning to make crafts, and eating wonderful treats she made me. I have a necklace that was hers, a family heirloom.

      Coming to terms with my family members being horrible people and doing horrible things has been a very difficult part of growing up. It’s reality. It has to be faced, and not excused or accepted or minimized.

      But my good memories are also real. I didn’t imagine those days, and I am a more secure and compassionate person because I felt safe and loved as a child.

      The necklace is still beautiful and valuable.

      I am the product of these people. I am valuable.

      The good things continue to exist. They have a life beyond the bad things.

      I think it’s the same with authors and artists. Good is stronger than evil. If a person makes something good – a book that helps children love to read, or learn empathy, that good thing has a life beyond the author. The evil he’s done can’t erase its value in the world.

      And some people are ignorant, like I was as a child. They do need to grow up and face reality, and that’s painful.

      It may or may not be your role to enlighten someone in any given situation. Take care of yourself, you’ve got a lot to process. And it won’t be the same right answer in every situation.

      1. LilySparrow*

        To clarify: I’m not talking about giving new recognition and opportunities to people who are abusing others. I’m talking about the work that’s already “out there.”

        I don’t think the industry should continue promoting and working with people who are abusive. Nobody should be handing harassers more opportunities.

        But I don’t think we need to make kids stop reading books they already like, either.

      2. LilySparrow*

        To clarify, I’m talking about work that’s already “out there.”
        I don’t think the industry should continue supporting or giving new opportunities to people who are abusive, and if you do have the influence to change things and feel safe doing so, that’s a very good thing to do, even if it’s only on a small scale.

        But I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by trying to make people reject books they already love.

    12. Student*

      Things I do to cope:

      Keep your ammo ready, in case you ever get to take your shot at any of these guys. Document what you saw, what he said, what other people were there. Dates, times, locations. Tell some confidant contemporaneously, so you can come back to them later to prove a timeline, if needed. And then watch for the weak moment where you can take your shot.

      If you can’t take them down, slow their momentum in other ways. Sometimes you have more power here than you realize. The Fight Club method, with less explosions. Book quote –

      Remember this. The people you’re trying to step on, we’re everyone you depend on. We’re the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We make your bed. We guard you while you’re asleep. We drive the ambulances. We direct your call. We are cooks and taxi drivers and we know everything about you. We process your insurance claims and credit card charges. We control every part of your life.

      We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we’ll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won’t. And we’re just learning this fact. So don’t fuck with us.

    13. fposte*

      I’m in the field and have been in it for a long time. The “you don’t want to know these people personally” component isn’t new, I’d say; what’s new, in addition to #MeToo, is the pop culture elevation of youth lit and the internet component, so there’s more worship and more casual contact.

      For me I look at it as part of the historical timeline, where there have always been jackasses and abusers among authors. I’m still evolving my position, but in general I don’t particularly feel people need to know about the author behind the books. I don’t think the personal and the art are unrelated but I also don’t think they’re completely inseparable, and I can still read William Mayne’s books, for instance, with enjoyment. I would bring it up if I knew the person listening would find this really important information that changed their reading (or if I was teaching the books) or would be relevant to a future interaction with the person, but I wouldn’t spontaneously share info any more than I’d bring up Cecilia Champagne every time somebody brags on Chaucer.

    14. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      Anon, I’ve had to go through some of these same issues but from a different angle in being a lawyer. Because of privilege and losing my career, it’s pretty easy not to tell anyone else. But some of my former clients and current public sector clients, while they aren’t well known nationwide, there are well known in the community. And it does turn your stomach to hear people gush about them once you’ve found out what they’ve done.

      How I’ve dealt with knowing their secrets is to realize the advantage that I’ve received in knowing the truth. While I can comment on what they’ve done, once my representation is over, my conduct can dictate what my words can’t, and I’m able to protect my family and friends from these people just by my actions. I’d rather know the truth and be disgusted by them than to not know at all. As for the people who will gush all over them, I just disengage and hope that the “fans” never have to experience what the person is really like.

    15. Pez*

      I work in children’s at one of the big five and am very very curious about which publisher you had those HR problems with!

      Also as someone who works in kidlit, I and my colleagues have been living for / disgusted by / surprised by / not at all shocked with a lot of the accusations and fallout from this last week. There will definitely be people defending those who don’t deserve it but this is a good thing and feels like part of a real shift.

      (Though let’s be real—how can anyone who has seen pictures of James Dashner with his creep-goatee be surprised? Dude did read the room and release a better reaction than Jay Asher, though.)

      (Also, this is at least another 100 reasons why Netflix shouldn’t have done another season of 13 Reasons Why, am I right?)

      (Ok I’m done. )

  27. analytica*

    Data Analysts of AAM–

    In your experience/opinion, how much does changing industries impact your effectiveness as an analyst? I am currently in healthcare, but would be open to trying out another industry to further develop in my skills. However, I also know that the background knowledge is so important when making decisions in your analysis and models, so I’d wonder if starting over would just put me further behind.

    I’m starting to ask myself the question “what do I actually want to do” again. As an analyst, there are so many different directions I could move in, but it’s hard to choose from. (e.g. data management, data automation, dashboard/visualization creation, predictive modeling, machine learning, statistical analysis, etc.) I sway towards the data automation and predictive side (maybe some data viz, but less keen on straight up dashboards all day everyday), but need a whole lot more training and learning for that.

    2. only acting normal*

      I once met a very senior US-based person in the teapot analysis field, he said people in usually fell into two camps: they’re either a Teapot analyst or a teapot Analyst. (The former being more bound to the teapot field, and the latter being more bound to analysis in general.)
      I lean more to the teapot Analyst side myself and, as a non-tea-drinker, I generally need to call on subject matter experts to support my analysis. So by giving myself permission to be an expert in Analysis, and not an expert in everything tea related, within the teapot field I’ve been able to move between lids, spouts, and brewing without too much trouble. Admittedly a move out to a completely different field would be a bigger leap, but I’ve also done some off-the-cuff analysis on some company HR stats which ultimately had an effect at the corporate level, so that gave me hope that if I get heartily sick of teapots I’d have a chance elsewhere.

      1. KAG*

        Great analogy. I started off as a Teapot analyst, and mid-career switched to anything-but-teapot Analyst. It depends, however, on the segment of data analysis you are in – I specialize in mathematical programming/ supply-chain optimization, and one of the first steps I take is to learn the client’s processes – which I would have to do regardless of familiarity with the industry. Of course, if I’ve never worked with that industry before, it makes the process more challenging- but it keeps me learning new things!

        If it were a different type of data analysis; say, where you have to advise / identify KPIs for dashboards and the like, I think industry knowledge would be crucial.

    3. Student*

      I do loads of physics analysis.

      Your whole phrasing/question/approach is very foreign to me and the way I approach being an analyst. Maybe if I talk about the way I approach it, it’ll give you a different perspective.

      I look at analysis as, above all, a way to make decisions. Maybe it’s a big part of a decision or a small part. Maybe it’s my decision, often it’s somebody else’s decision. I give the client a tool or piece of information that they can use to make a decision, summarizing a lot of underlying information into only the most important bits through math and science.

      So, when I go looking at my career, I go looking for a place where I want to help people make decisions.

      When I look at developing my skills, I look for skills or tools that will help make that decision easier, faster, more convincing.

      I also try hard to avoid things that promise more than they can deliver, or things that look flashy but ultimately distract from the real underlying decision. Good graphics/visuals are incredibly effective. Graphics that look great but don’t help you make decisions are really bad graphics. Anything that claims it can tell the future is automatically extremely suspect – I am not here to give a fancied-up tarot reading, even though I know it could be lucrative in the short term to do so.

      1. analytica*

        Intriguing, I have never done any physics analysis and we clearly think differently.

        Yes, analysis is key to help people make decisions. You use math and science to get at this, but how can you analyze what you don’t understand? You need to get a sense of the data, the nature of how it was collected and defined, pitfalls of it, in order to validate your assumptions and hypotheses. I know you understand this, but this is what I’m getting at.

        When I look at healthcare data, I have a starting sense of which groupings of patients are clinically similar or different. Or I have an understanding of the structure of financial data and the codes associated with billing. This background knowledge informs my analysis immensely, and without it, I must start over. Getting to this point obviously takes time, and I am asking about the investment of time an analyst makes when s/he changes industries. Changing companies is hard enough, but a new industry is a whole new set of regulations, data systems and structures, and jargon — right?

        Predictive modeling doesn’t purport to tell the future; it is a way to better prepare for the most statistically probable future. (Of course, you still need to know your data very well to develop these predictions!) How can we staff or schedule without some semblance of this, especially in a place with as many moving parts as healthcare? I don’t do it currently, but I would also shudder at a person who claims their model has all answers. That person would certainly be very misguided.

        I wouldn’t say I’m an expert in all this. I switched careers and have been trying to get a better handle ever since, but I’d hope I have an idea.

        1. Close Bracket*

          I am also a physicist. You and student find your approaches to be foreign bc, despite the similarity in name, scientific data analysis and data analytics are really different things. However, a number of physicists seem to be getting hired to do data analytics/data science! A physics program doesn’t just teach physics, it also teaches problem solving and how to think, and that is a good discussion to have with a scientist. Forget about the jargon, forget about the regulations. You have to learn them, but they are just facts, and you can look them until you have them memorized. Your way of thinking, the way you ask questions, and your way of approaching the analysis will translate.

        2. Hillary*

          This is my approach. I have bad quality, limited data, so the hypotheses I test pretty much have to come from my business knowledge (technically I’m a business manager, no longer an analyst). I usually start with “oh that’s weird” and go from there.

          That said, someone in the business will help you with that part and it’s easy to switch. I’ve worked for plenty of people who couldn’t do the math but were exactly right about the business.

    4. Borgette*

      I definitely view myself as a data expert who happens to be working with Teapot Supply Chain data. I’ve changed industries once, and I do need a bit more support than the analysts who came from providing tea service, but not much. Maybe a question or two on more complex projects. My current department has a blend of analysts with non-teapot analytics backgrounds, and non-analytics Teapot backgrounds and it works really well!

    5. sparty07*

      In my experience as a financial analyst/manager, as long as you have core understandings of pattern recognition, forecasting, analysis, presentation of data, that the subject matter is less important. I was able to quickly transfer from durable manufacturing (many different departments within that company) to food manufacture to financial service. While working in financial service company focused on the durable good made that transition even easier, a good analyst can use their knowledge of analysis and quickly learn about the new department/industry/company fairly quickly.

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      It depends on how technically deep you are in your analysis.

      If you are using Excel or basic BI tools for your work, I would expect that the bulk of your value to your employer comes from your understanding of the business and its data. In that case your effectiveness as an analyst would be limited immediately after moving to a new industry.

      On the other hand, if your skills are technical (machine learning, statistical modeling, Python, R, spinning up Spark clusters on AWS), you should be able to (easily) move from to a new industry and apply those technical skills to new problems. Your value to your employer will be split between your business and technical knowledge, so the technical skills will give you an immediate leg up. In fact, your experience across industries might be perceived as a real plus, allowing you to draw upon a wide variety of experience in your new position. I have worked in a variety of industries (banking, healthcare, advertising), and I often drew upon experiences in one industry to do something useful and innovative in another.

  28. ARGH*

    During my “excellent” review in November, my manager said she wanted to promote me, either one level up or two. Last Friday, she told me that she now plans to promote me in July, and said that she can’t promote me until there’s someone at my current level to fill my spot. The thing is, until 2 weeks ago, there was: the newish person on my level gave her notice, and today is her last day. So essentially, I was prevented from being promoted by a measly two weeks: if she had given her notice after my promotion went into effect, I wouldn’t have been demoted. I’ve busted my butt, staying late and working weekends, and after 4 years with the company, I’m still on the absolutely lowest rung in my dept. [For scale, my manager herself has been here for 4, and has been promoted 2 times.] Anyway, no real advice needed, just commiseration.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I feel the “Lucy Van Pelt football promotion” is super, super common as a way to retain staff by promising them someday, if they’re really really good, they’ll get this reward – but no time soon. One way I try to think about it is, they’re telling me I’m capable of performing at the next level up – so I should start looking to leverage my experience externally. They can’t be surprised if it’s been more than six months they’ve been promising a raise or promotion that hasn’t come through. Just don’t fall for it and stay years on a wink and a promise.

      1. Bea W*

        I had a boss who did this to me repeatedly. I had to have the come to Jesus talk with her after the 2nd review cycle.

        I was totally happy to keep doing what I was doing without a promotion. I loved my job. I wasn’t looking for it. However, by the 2nd review cycle I had taken on additional responsibilities because of her promises, and getting the same BS excuses like blaming the company for not promoting anyone internally (blatent lie) I wasn’t going to allow someone to think they could keep taking unfair advantage of my and patience, trust, and talents. That was not okay.

        I got my promotion, but politely declined certain future additions to my responsibilities that came with promises of promotions or moving towards a management tract, mostly because I didn’t have the bandwidth, and definitely because I couldn’t trust it wasn’t more of the same.

        I’m no longer at that company. BSing people was part of the culture.

    2. Enough*

      The rigidness that some companies have is ridiculous. Son just got a promotion to associate. You are first eligible at your 5th anniversary. Last year he was 2 months shy of 5 years – so no promotion then. This year there is a guy who is 1 month shy so no promotion for him either. To add to this they only promote from with in so no matter your age or experience you only get to be an associate after 5 years with their company.

      1. Rainy*

        I’ve missed two merit raise cycles because I’ve changed roles twice, each one shy of the cutoff for being considered for merit raises. :/

      2. Close Bracket*

        > To add to this they only promote from with in so no matter your age or experience you only get to be an associate after 5 years with their company.

        Holy cats. I have 10+ years experience and a PhD. I would never accept a position at entry level. I can’t believe people go for that.

    4. LKW*

      I wouldn’t trust words, only actions. Your boss could just have easily given you the promotion then said you had to wait until a new person was hired. She could have shown you all that was being done in parallel to get you into your new position. She could have given you the promotion and said that you needed to backfill part of your old job, along with others, until a permanent replacement was hired. She could have done a lot of things.

      Might be time to look for a new job.

      1. Irene Adler*

        Yep!

        Their next ploy is to tell you: “Well, we think of you as a Manager, even though you are officially just a Supervisor.”

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        I agree. Start your job search now, looking for a position at the level you would be at if you receive the promotion. If you get a new job before the promotion, great. If you get the promotion first, also great.

        Take control of the situation and don’t leave your professional growth in the hands of a boss/organization that you don’t seem to be able to count on.

    5. Chaordic One*

      The ugly truth is… (and its’s going to hurt)… it’s time to start looking for a new position.

  29. esra (also a Canadian)*

    Please help my tactless self.

    I want to ask my VP if a guy on our team is being put on the management track. Dude is not even out of probation, and in my (very recent) review my VP said he’d like to see me managing people by eoy. Except this new guy is being put into management training, with no subordinates, and it looks like the participants were chosen by HR and not my (overworked) VP.

    The problem is I am completely lacking in tact. I don’t know what to say other than: “Is (new dude) on a promotion track for the team?” or “What is the longterm plan for our team?”

    I’m getting mixed signals from my VP and HR, and I’ve been in similar spots before where waiting and seeing was definitely not the right thing to do. Help?

    1. Marzipan*

      Does it matter that Other Guy may be getting management training, or is it more relevant and important here that you aren’t? I guess what I’m asking is, is there any need to have a tact-requiring conversation about Other Guy, it could you just reach out to your VP and say ‘hey, we talked about me moving toward managing people in the near future, would it make sense for me to get the X training?’

      1. esra (also a Canadian)*

        It does in a few ways. Outside our team, because this guy is on management training, people think he’s a level up from the rest of us. Requests that should come directly to people are now going through him and it’s the kind of workplace where if that keeps happening, he’ll basically become out manager.

        I did ask my VP about the training, and he said he’d try and get me in on it, but honestly, he’s so swamped that employee development is below the bottom of his list of things to do.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          If your development is “the bottom of his list of things to do” then you know where you stand with the company. Either be more forceful in your ask for coaching/training/development, or start looking for something new.

    2. Emi.*

      Do you actually want to know what’s going on with him, or what’s going on with you? If what you really want is for *you* to be put on the management track, I would only ask about that, because asking about the new guy risks looking petty and competitive.

      1. esra (also a Canadian)*

        I actually want to know what’s going on with him. If they want him on management track, I’ll work with that. I want to know what’s coming, while also advocate for myself.

        Basically finding that out, without looking petty, is the thing I’m having trouble with.

        1. Emi.*

          Based on the other details in your response to Marzipan, I would see if you can get into the training without your VP’s having to put you there (in a “Hey, VP, I know you’re swamped so why don’t I talk to HR directly” kind of way).

          But about finding out about New Guy, do you all have a manager besides the VP? If so, I would talk to them (presumably they’re in the loop about this guy’s trajectory) and point out that things are going through New Guy just because he’s in management training, so (a) is this correct, or should they still be coming to you directly, and (b) ask to be put in the training.

          1. esra (also a Canadian)*

            Alas, we’re all directly under an incredibly swamped VP. Maybe I’ll just make my question more general about the future structure of the team.

            1. Marzipan*

              I mean, sure, but general can be a recipe for your question not being recognised as the question you intended it to be. Coming up with an approach that’s both direct and gracious might be more the ticket.

            2. Emi.*

              If the VP is busy, will a general question get your point across? Can you ask something like “Does NG being in this training mean you want him to do it instead of me, or should I just talk to HR about the training directly since you’re busy?”? If VP is both of your direct manager, that might actually make it easier, since you can roll it into “It looks like HR put New Guy in the training and now things are coming in through him instead of directly to the people they should be going to. How should we handle that?” which is totally not petty, imo.

            3. WellRed*

              I feel like you are excusing your boss too much, here. So what if he’s swamped? He wants to put you on managing track, he needs to do it. As you said above, waiting and seeing hasn’t worked in the past and with new guy appearing to be on mgt track, well…don’t let this go.

            4. Decima Dewey*

              Don’t ask about him. You’ll be told it’s none of your business. What you want to know is how you can get into management training and/or how you can move up. Not the team as a whole.

    3. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      Does asking about this other guy actually answer your question about your own career trajectory though?
      It seems like you could just follow up with your VP and ask if he had any particular plan or steps in mind in order to transition you to management by the end of the year.

    4. Becky*

      Perhaps just make it about you and not this other person: “Per our discussion about me being on the management track, I’d like to attend [this management training] as part of my professional development toward my EOY goal.”

  30. rosiebyanyothername*

    What’s your take on dress code enforcement? Recently we got a mass email about specific dos and don’ts re: the dress code. A lot of the “don’ts” were listing very specific pieces of clothing I had seen people wear recently, like specific colors of jeans or flannel shirts. A lot of people felt targeted and wished they has been confronted directly if their clothing was an issue. I agree, but I’m not sure if there’s a perfect way—no matter how you choose to announce/enforce a code someone will be mad. I think the term “business casual” has gotten so open to interpretation that it exacerbates the problem. How does your office handle this?

    1. Parenthetically*

      I’m a teacher and my students wear uniforms, so the general rule is “dress a step nicer than the kids.” And I share your annoyance at the dress-code carpet-bomb rather than saying, “Oh hey, that top’s just a little too casual for this environment!”

      I think terms like “business casual” do no one any favors. A dress code that works on broad principles and then drills down to specifics where necessary, and that isn’t reactionary or punitive but assumes adults can adult, is better than one that is overly vague or overly specific. I think having three categories — Don’t Wear, Do Wear, No Need To Wear — with a few examples in each sets the parameters pretty clearly. So: “Clothes should be neat, clean, and in good repair, and project professionalism. In this environment that would exclude (whatever: jeans, colored jeans, leggings, sandals, flip flops, shorts, tshirts, flashy logos, anything distracting or ostentatious). Good choices would be (whatever: chinos/dress pants, button-down shirts, blazers, sweaters/vests/cardigans, pencil skirts, tights, flat or low-heeled shoes, etc. etc. as needed). No need for (whatever: suits and ties, pantyhose, high heels, super-polished shoes, etc.).”

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        I also teach students who wear uniforms and we have a similar guideline. Especially Mondays, which are dress uniform day.

    2. EB*

      I feel like you have to talk to people individually when they’re wearing the clothes so they don’t feel like they’re being publicly shamed (of course, I also manage student interns and I think that’s the only approach that works with them). Before my old boss left he’d have HR send out email blasts which had the effect of making people that weren’t breaking the dress code worried that they might be doing something wrong. And the people who were actually dressing inappropriately remained unconcerned.

      I wish that workplaces that want people to abide by extremely specific dress codes would just spell it out and own up to it. Business casual means nothing to me at this point– I’ve worked at places where it was just a step down from having to wear a pantsuit every day. Now I work in a “business casual” setting where I can regularly wear leggings and tunics– sometimes even sneakers– and no one cares.

      1. many bells down*

        Yeah “business casual” is really dependent on your location and your industry. At my volunteer gig, I was told “business casual, but we’re in Seattle so that just means casual. Don’t wear sweatpants, basically.” Jeans are fine, and due to the very specific niche we fill, Star Wars and band t-shirts are actually encouraged.

        95% of my jobs have been such that jeans-and-tees were the most practical clothing choice. I actually wish I had a job where I could dress nicely.

    3. Uncivil Engineer*

      My organization handles it poorly by saying “dress appropriately for your work” and providing no indication of what that is. In my Division, that could mean business casual or business depending on what meetings you have. Friday is casual.

      I am guilty of sending the mass email about dress code enforcement. I did it because the last time I spoke to someone directly, they got very defensive and then brought up a number of people (none of whom work for me) who were wearing the same thing. Enforcement through the Division is lax so a bunch of people are dressed inappropriately on any given day.

      I am rather annoyed at the way a few people on my team dress. I don’t know if it’s true, but I feel like they are
      purposefully flaunting the dress code because they know it is an awkward conversation for their boss to have with them so, if their work is good, the boss is unlikely to bring it up. In the meantime, I’m seething inside when I see them wearing jeans, sneakers, and a polo shirt every day.

      1. CM*

        Either there’s a dress code or there isn’t. Jeans, sneakers, and a polo shirt is perfectly acceptable for work in many offices I’ve worked in. Why does that make you seethe? If there’s a dress code, you can tell your employees that they need to follow it. If there isn’t, then take deep breaths and accept that they’re allowed to dress this way.

        1. Uncivil Engineer*

          There is a dress code. It just isn’t defined well because “we are all adults and know how to dress ourselves” except… apparently we all aren’t adults and don’t know how to dress ourselves.

          Jeans, sneakers, and polos are not my office’s idea of business casual. It makes me seethe because I have already mentioned this isn’t appropriate attire 3 times in the last year and a few people keep on wearing them. For reference, I wear trousers or a pencil skirt, a nice top, and ballet flats or closed toe heels most of the time and my boss wears a suit every day.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            My take on it is that you’ve warned them, they know it isn’t acceptable, and now you just let them dig their own hole. We are business casual of the slacks/polo/dress shoes variety, and yet I see people in the halls with cargo pants, tennis shoes like Vans or similar, and a hoodie over their shirt. Yet I never see anyone dressed that way above a certain level. I think it is a fair trade. If you’re happy being comfortable and stuck, fine. The problem is if someone you want to promote falls into that mode of dressing, but I’m having trouble thinking of someone who would be that example here. (Now, you could have managers and hi pos dressing that way, I’m only speaking for us.)

        2. Penny Lane*

          Because jeans, sneakers and a polo shirt aren’t business-casual. They are casual-casual. There’s nothing wrong with an office choosing one or the other (my own office was casual-casual and jeans and sneakers were just fine), but what you’re describing simply isn’t business-casual.

          Nice, dark wash jeans could *possibly* be business casual if paired with a blazer, boots, scarf, etc.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            I’ve never thought of polo shirts as being “casual-casual.” They’re business casual in my corner of the world. (T-shirts are casual-casual.)

            That doesn’t make them not hideous, and I never wear them.

            But if that many people are interpreting business casual that differently, there need to be specific rules. There were in my last job, but they kept changing them. Mainly because people followed the letter of the law but not the spirit. So, I was no longer allowed to wear my dark denim material dress pants (not cut like jeans), but other people wore shirts that looked more like clubwear than business casual. I will not even get into the great flip-flop debate. (There are such things as thong-style dress sandals, people!)

            I now work somewhere that the dress code is “dress appropriately,” and (this is the weird part) everybody does! I think this is just a culture thing.

            1. Someone else*

              Polo shirts can be business casual, but they’re not if paired with sneakers and jeans. Just as very dark jeans could be business casual if paired with a blazer and nicer shoes. My office specifically has a “no jeans” policy, but in one that doesn’t, if someone is pairing one casual-ish item with a rest of the outfit that is definitely business, I’d think one can generally get away with it. It’s a balance thing though. Like if each piece of clothing gets 1 point for being casual, 2 for being business-casual, 3 for being business, if your whole outfit averages higher than 2, you’re probably ok.

    4. KR*

      I had a direct report a couple years ago with a serious dress code issue. Our dress code was the casual end of business casual with uniform shirts provided. The people we hired were mostly young college aged people.

      I ended up making a detailed sheet on what business casual meant with regards to our office (well fitting clothes, clothes that aren’t dirty or torn, not sweatpants, model what you see people around you wearing, don’t be noticably more casual than everyone else, ect) with pictures and example outfits for both genders, with arrows on each picture pointing out what made it a good choice and why. I also included basic places to get work wear for different price points (“if you go to Walmart and buy these basic 10 dollar slacks and wear your work shirt and your normal sneakers that is within dress code.”)

      I also had to be willing to tell someone to go home and change especially when it became such a huge issue with this one person. If it was a rare incident I would say, “Hey dont wear that again because x/don’t forget your uniform shirt/ect” but with that direct report I had to say on a few occasions that they needed to go home and change and what they were wearing was wildly out of dress code.

      Good luck.

    5. Natalie*

      There might not be a perfect way, but sending a mass email that identifies really specific things that are clearly individual people is about the worst way. Whomever decided on that tack is a coward.

      1. not so sweet*

        We had a contest once, to identify which outfit on which person had triggered each item on the list.

    6. Ten*

      I think a dress code should be written out as part of the employee manual with individual infractions addressed one-on-one by the person’s manager.

      Dress codes just seem to be gateways for pettiness. I once had a coworker go behind my back to my boss and complain that I had repeatedly worn clogs, which were against the dress code. When my boss approached me about it I agreed not to wear them anymore but pointed out that 1) no one had ever said anything to me directly, and 2) while our dress code forbade open toed shoes it said nothing about open heels. And I went away from the exchange feeling mighty burned by whoever it was (never did find out) that griped to my boss after several instances instead of coming straight to me after the first.

      1. DressCodePoPo*

        So you would rather the coworker call you out on dress code infractions?

        That would cause so many problems at my office. If a coworker tells another coworker something…oh man, it just gets catty. “If there was a problem with my Metallica tshirt, Director should tell me, not you, Fergus!” or “I’ve worn these leopard print leggings in front of the president and he has said nothing, so you are full of crap, Fergusina!”

        They won’t take it seriously UNLESS the boss says something to them and it will just create bad blood if a coworker even attempts to point something out.

        This seems to be most true about the dress code, and it’s over a wide range of employees, male and female, aged 20-70, in every department. I wish my employees were more like you…would make my day A LOT easier without having to hear complaint after complaint of dress code “tattlers.”

        (I wrote the dress code policy…so I guess this is revenge…even though it’s a super lax dress code…no open toe shoes, no flip flops, no tights/leggings without fingertip length blouse or dress. No graphic tees… That is pretty much it)

    7. Samiratou*

      If “a lot” of people feel targeted, that says to me the mass email might actually be the way to go here, as it gets time-consuming to talk to people individually. If you’ve got a couple of people then, yes, the mass email is overkill and insulting, but if it’s a lot of people, or management is noting an increase in “violations” then a reminder isn’t uncalled for.

      However, the dos and don’ts should be consistent with a written dress code that employees can access for reference and they should be given that or directed to it when hired. Individual managers shouldn’t be able to decide they don’t like flannel or something when it’s not prohibited by the dress code (though I also think companies should have different dress codes for different types of positions. Frex, flannel on someone working in facilities is different than someone in a client-facing position, depending on the company’s client base and expectations).

    8. HannahS*

      I loathe the undefined “business casual.” It’s what they told us at the beginning of medical school, and when people asked specific questions, all we got was a story about how some girl once dressed like she was going to club so don’t do that haha!! Just use common sense! Look professional!–which drives me up the wall because it’s all so arbitrary and if your parents didn’t work in an office environment how the heck are you supposed to know what’s appropriate? One of our instructors did us the favour of saying “No gym clothes. Don’t come into the hospital wearing running shoes.” I sincerely wish they’d just say stuff like, “We expect you to wear business casual clothes. This can be a range of things and you’ll see what doctors wear as you go through here. To start, business casual means that your pants aren’t jeans or leggings. It means that your shirt is not a t-shirt, and that your shoes are not running shoes and must have a closed toe. Your underwear should not be visible. Cleavage, midriffs, armpits, and legs should be covered, with the exception of an approximately knee-length skirt. Here are some examples of what business casual can look like.”

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          I once had trainees ask me about our dress code and whether a man wearing a skirt would be allowed. (This was about 15 years ago.) Our code only addressed clothing, not the gender/sex of the wearer, so in our case, yes. Provided it was not made of blue denim. (At the time, there were a few updates to the dress code in later years. But it was always based on the clothing, not the wearer.)

  31. Rebecca*

    Has anyone had any luck with moving their “butts in seat” company to allow teleworking?

    I am happy with my job, but due to some changes occurring in my life it’s looking like I’ll be moving several states away in the future, hopefully within the next year or so. Currently, I drive to an office in another town to log into a computer in another state, and deal with people all over the US and offshore via phone and email access. I don’t need to be in a specific place to do my job, it’s a job that matters if it gets done not so much where it’s done. Whether I’m here or 1000 miles away, the result is the same.

    Once I know for sure I’ll be moving, I’d love to stay on as an employee! I thought about making a list of the positive things, and maybe a list of things that would need to be worked out, but really, all I need is decent internet access, a computer and a phone to do my job.

    Any success stories and how you did it would be appreciated!

    1. WellRed*

      Do they have a presence in the other state? Because they will need to follow that state’s labor laws, etc is my understanding, so you’d really need to show the company your value.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I did this when we moved out of NYC. I was working for an LA-based company and two of us in New York worked out of a Regus office. My partner got into a PhD program and we moved several states away, and my boss agreed to let me take my job with me. The CEO– her boss and the owner of the company– was not too happy about it, but my boss fought for me, saying that they weren’t using me for anything client-facing anyway (which… was what I was hired for, but that’s a separate issue) and nothing would change day-to-day. It helped my case that the other person in the NY office moved to part-time and was rarely there. I was basically alone anyway, doing all of my work online and on the phone.

      I stayed with the company for three months after we moved and found a job here. I would have stayed indefinitely, but the job had issues that led to me looking. While I was still with the company, absolutely nothing changed. My hours stayed the same, communications were the same. I flew back to New York for personal reasons and stayed an extra two days to take some meetings. I paid for my flight, but the company covered the costs for when I had to change to accommodate clients’ schedules. But really, it was fine. I think the stress is that nothing will change if you change locations.

      Good luck!

    3. Samiratou*

      If you are a good employee, it should be more worth it for them to keep you than to find, hire & train a new person. When you are moving talk to your boss and say you’d like to stay with the company, talk about what your home office setup would be like, what hours you would keep and how that will basically be the same as what you do now.
      My company used to be a butt-in-seat kind of company but has relaxed that, and part of the relaxing was due to employees moving out of state and but the company wanting to keep them as employees.

    4. Teleworker*

      I’ve done this. My job went with me when I moved 800 miles from our home office. This worked for a few reasons—my work is independent, like yours, and can be done from anywhere. Also, probably more importantly, I’m a specialist running a high profile project and no one else internally has the experience to do it. So it was easier for the company to let me keep doing what I’m doing than replace me. I would recommend emphasizing why you excel at your role. Good luck!

  32. Parenthetically*

    Out of curiosity:

    My husband and I share a car and I pick him up from work every day. Due to [list of boring reasons related to having a six-month-old], a couple days a week I’m waiting for him (in a parking spot in the large lot outside his office) for more than, say, ten minutes, and very occasionally as many as 20 minutes. Would you think that was weird?

    1. Snark*

      Just based on what you’ve told us here, not really. If he’s off at (say) 4, he may be the sort that goes, it is four, and lo, I am done. Time to turn off my computer, grab my travel mug, tidy up, toss that print job in the recycle bin, and oh hey, boss, just wanted to let you know, the llamas in pen 6 were grumpy today, okay bye. I think you’re on pretty reasonable ground to be like, “yo, you’re always late walking out to the car, can you pick it up so I don’t have to wait when I pick you up?” or just arrive at 4:15 instead of 4pm on the dot, but I don’t think there’s anything necessarily weird on the face of it about taking 10-15 minutes to straggle out.

      1. Beehoppy*

        I took the question to mean would the other employees find it weird to see her sitting in the parking lot for 10-20 minutes. If that was the question I don’t think they will even notice.

      2. Parenthetically*

        I was going at it from the other direction but thank you for this comment which is hilarious and precisely nails my husband’s MO.

        1. Aunt Vixen*

          I agree with Snark, and if what you mean is “Is it weird to lurk in someone’s parking lot for 20 minutes every day”, I don’t think it is – especially if nobody’s given you any side-eye or had security stroll by to make sure you’re not Planning Something or what have you. And if someone does come by needing reassurance, isn’t “Oh, I’m Parenthetically, my husband works in Llama Relations and I’m just waiting to give him a lift home,” delivered with a friendly smile, reassuring as you then turn back to the book you’re propping up on the steering wheel?

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Ditto. And the number of people who would even notice that you’re waiting in a parked car is probably minimal. I don’t tend to stare out my office window at a parking lot for 10-20 straight minutes.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Do you mean does it look weird to be sitting in your car? I don’t think so; I see people sit in their car in office building parking garages all day. In the morning, rather than sit at their desk, they’ll listen to the radio or even nap; I know a couple of people who eat lunch or nap after lunch in their car; and at the end of the day, some people want a few minutes to decompress, or have to finish emails or something before they drive away.

      So, no, sitting in the car for 10-20 minutes is not weird to me, if that’s what you meant.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep, that’s what I meant. I didn’t think about it until recently when one of his coworkers walked out past my car and gave me a VERY odd look, and suddenly I felt like a mom in a carpool line after school.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well, I see it a lot; specifically a coworker with whom I’m very friendly gets in before I do, parks right near where I do, and often stays in their car until they see me get there, at which time it’s close to our start time. But if I saw someone in the car next to mine on my way home, I might be taken a little by surprise, simply because we’re very used to parked cars being empty by default. I wouldn’t read too much into the coworkers’ reaction. (Or they could be a busybody who expects other people to conform to their idea of what is proper, in which case, good for you for shocking them! :D )

          1. Parenthetically*

            I’m just glad to have such a unanimous response. It hasn’t been weighing on my mind or anything but I figured it would be a good topic for a poll in FOT! :)

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      Nope! If you were waiting around for hours that would be weird (probably harmlessly weird, but it would still stand out if I noticed it) but 10-20 minutes seems totally normal to me and I probably wouldn’t even pick up on it.

    5. Bea W*

      Nope, not weird. If it’s easier for you to arrive early and wait, no reason not to. Enjoy your 10-20 minutes of sanctuary!

    7. Sabrina Spellman*

      My s/o was relocated to an office just a few blocks from where I work, so we carpool together to save on his parking costs. I’ve sometimes waited 45 minutes to an hour for him to come out, so I’d be happy with 10 or 20 minutes.

    9. As Close As Breakfast*

      It’s not weird. Several of our manufacturing floor employees are in, or have been in, the same position. I happen to have a second floor office with a huge window that overlooks the parking lot and work much later than the shop employees, so I have seen spouses (or even parents), sometimes with children, drive up and chill in the parking lot waiting for the employee to get off. I notice because it’s literally happening in my line of sight. But that means I usually see the employee head out to the car when they get off too. The only times I’ve ever really taken note and thought it was maybe a little bit weird was when I noticed someone arrive more than 45 minutes or an hour before the employee was getting off. It’s probably only happened a handful of times, and I was likely thinking more along the lines of “sucks they have to wait so long today, wonder why they got here so early?”

    10. Anonymous Penguin*

      Not weird, but if he works at a bank or someplace else with security concerns he may want to give someone a heads up that you’ll be waiting for him. (Source: former bank employee who did have a coworker call the police to check the guy who was just sitting in our parking lot staring at our building–he was waiting to meet someone who was running late.)

    11. aett*

      I’d be surprised if anyone noticed if it is a large lot. My wife and I carpool, and I typically wait about 45 minutes for her. It’s a smallish lot and no one has ever said anything to me over the last two years or so.

  33. Marzipan*

    Gah. Mega anxious again. I really thought, at the end of last week/beginning of this week, that I was over the hump, but the fact that I ended up freaking out in my boss’s office today and being made to go home would tend to suggest otherwise. It’s so frustrating and I know it’s leaving everyone else picking up the slack (and I can see from my emails that everything’s kicking off, it being Friday afternoon).

    Harrumph :-(

    1. Sabrina Spellman*

      Do you have any idea about what’s making you anxious so you can possibly developing some coping mechanisms?

      1. Marzipan*

        I am due to start CBT in a couple of weeks which should help develop some strategies. (Hopefully.) But basically I just seem to be massively overreacting to any situation with the potential for conflict or where the available solutions are a bit muddy and unsatisfying. Which is probably a good 25% of my job, unfortunately!

  34. Cancer Crush Anon*

    For those following my previous posts…(Ceo told me he has a crush on me).

    Well, I spoke too soon. Friday afternoon I had two phone calls to my desk phone, 2 to my work cell and then 1 more to my desk phone from the CEO. I told my boss, she called HR and HR was like “well, I told him not to call you…”. He finally left a message and it was basically a “I’m sorry you feel uncomfortable” vs an “I’m sorry I said that.”. He also told me not to worry, nothing has changed between us and I’m a good employee blah blah blah. My boyfriend said the way he said that made it sound like CEO really did think something was going on between us. Yuck.

    Thankfully one of my former coworkers really pushed my resume to her new employer and I have an interview on Monday before my dad’s surgery. Fingers crossed there. It will be a LONG commute (12 minutes vs 45-60 min) but it’ll pay a lot more and have more vacation. We have a huge bonus/profit sharing coming up in March, so I’m hoping that their timeline moves slow. The way they are acting though, it doesn’t seem like it will take awhile. I’m leaving almost 10k on the table though, so I do not want to put notice in before that money is in my account. We’ll see.

    CEO is at a conference for the next week, but I’ll have to see him eventually. Hopefully I can continue avoiding him. Thanks for following me on this ride, so far.

    1. BadPlanning*

      He called you 5 times and had the gall to say, “I’m sorry you feel uncomfortable.” I can’t even.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      If you can, save that message somewhere. Best of luck on the interview and your dad’s surgery!

      1. Observer*

        Save ALL of it. Including HR’s inane response.

        And when you leave, if it’s not time for bonuses yet, tell the you want some of that because you were absolutely pushed out by the CEO and their failure to rein him in. Let them see what you have on the table. I normally wouldn’t suggest this, but he’s being SO predatory, it’d not even funny. It would be bad enough on it’s own, but when you are ALSO struggling with this kind of personal stuff? He knows EXACTLY what he’s doing.

      2. Cancer Crush Anon*

        It’s saved. Our phone system sends us a copy of voice mails to our email. I forwarded it to myself, my boyfriend, and my boyfriend’s brother (aka my lawyer).

    3. Mona Lisa*

      Ew, that is terrible. He is the one making it weird now, and I’m glad you’ve got HR looped in on this. I’m sorry you’re dealing with it though, and I hope the new job pans out!

    4. Salmon for Dinner!*

      if /when the new place offers a job, ask if you can push the start date out past the date of your bonus.

      Worst they can say is ‘no’.

      1. DDJ*

        Agreed. It’s so reasonable to do this sort of thing. People need to give notice, or they want to take a bit of a break between jobs, whatever. Definitely doesn’t hurt to ask. If it were me, I’d approach it in a “Just wondering if this is at all possible” way. Unless you realize that it IS a dealbreaker for you. Good luck!

        1. Cancer Crush Anon*

          Yes, I’m hoping that if I tell them frankly: “Look, my bonus is like 10k. It comes in mid-march…Can you work with me a little?” That will be okay. They are hiring two positions right now in that department, and both me and my current coworker are currently being interviewed for both of those roles…if we both get them, she will want to start immediately and I will want to wait….so that could cause some issues but hopefully not.

          1. DDJ*

            Being frank, if you’re offered the job, might be your best bet. Because if you’re the top candidate and they really want you, it’s not going to be a big deal (also, keep in mind that these processes can sometimes take a lot longer than anticipated, and even if they move you through the steps and you’re the successful candidate…the timing could be fine!).

            If it IS a big deal and it’s the kind of thing that would prevent them from hiring you, I think you could say that. “I have a bonus payout in March, so if there’s any way that the start date can be x, I would appreciate it. If that’s not possible, I do want this position, so I will make the earlier start date work.

            I’ve had positions to fill where I really needed the person to start immediately, and it would have been a dealbreaker if they’d asked for a later start. And I’ve had others where and extra week (or two, or three) really wouldn’t be a big deal. And who knows, maybe since they’re hiring two people for the same department, having one person start sooner would alleviate the need to have you start at the same time. Depending on the positions, and the other successful candidate.

            Also, if they decide to hire both you and your coworker, her start date should have no more bearing on yours than it would if you were two candidates from two entirely different companies. If they really need both roles to start immediately, that would be the case regardless of where the new hires are coming from.

          2. Close Bracket*

            I would not say that. It’s already mid-February. I assume your desire is to wait until you get your bonus and then give notice? First, it’s just an interview. Don’t bring it up. If they bring it up, say you would like to start as soon as is consistent with giving notice. If they press, say people typically have long notice periods to ensure smooth hand off of duties, and you would want to be courteous to your current employer.

            If they make you an offer, that will take at least a week. You can ask for a day or two to think it over. By then, it will be late February. If you haven’t already discussed the long notice period, bring it up. You can probably safely ask to start at the end of March. At my former employer, they wanted a month notice, or more, and one of my compatriots gave a month notice without problem for her new job. Of course, your employer is not my employer, her new employer is not your new employer, and anything could happen. I would try to negotiate a start date one week out from your bonus being deposited by telling them you want to give a lot of notice, and then be a jerk and give one week notice.

          3. Close Bracket*

            Oh, and this:

            > if we both get them, she will want to start immediately and I will want to wait

            Just start when they want you to start. Assume you are staying at current job and act as such. Don’t give any reason for suspicion. Getting a new role does not preclude quitting two weeks later.

      2. Triplestep*

        In my last job, they knew pre-offer that I’d have to stay until March 15th to get my previous year’s bonus, and I got my offer a good month before then. They were more than willing to adjust my start date to two weeks after March 15 without my asking (but not more. So no time off between jobs). I think they’d rather do that than quibble over salary. The recruiter told me several times “We don’t want you to leave money on the table”.

        Good luck!

    5. Lucky*

      Fingers crossed on the interview. It would be great to get a new job and preserve any good relationship you have with your company. As a lawyer in a corporate legal department, I want to reach through my computer and shake your CEO by the shoulders, tell him to put the damn phone down and take all the hints. How this behavior doesn’t raise an Olympics Opening Ceremonies worth of red flags about his professional judgment is beyond me.

  35. DC*

    Guys I got a job offer! It’s got pretty good benefits, a not-bad salary I’d like to bring up, and a good culture.

    I haven’t 100% decided if I’m taking it cause it’s similar to what I do now, not necessarily my degree, although I may have a chance to use it.

    Am I pigeonholing my self in Teapot Sales when I want to move fully to Teapot Design?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Whoo hoo! Congrats!

      Talk to them about that chance of using your degree. Talk is cheap, but if they can talk about what percentage of your time you would be able to devote to that and whether there would be a timeline to increase that percentage, then take a risk and go for it. If they waffle, nope out of there.

  36. Finally a Fed*

    Well, I am finally a CS – something I have been working toward for nearly two years. Ever since I was appointed to a position (that I love) that required a CS. There was a lot of stress during that time about whether I could keep/continue in the job until a became a CS, and a few times I thought I would have my position and duties taken away. My official start date was last monday and within 4 days I ran into a major hiccup that may mean I can’t do the job anyway. Obviously, I can’t get into specifics, but the good news is that my new management has stepped up BIG TIME and is doing everything they can to get this resolved. This includes having an SES in my chain of command set up a meeting to deal with it personally. People complain about government management, but I’m super impressed with what I’m seeing so far.

    Anyway, I’m massively bummed (to the point of tears several times – it’s how I deal with stress and frustration). I really love the work that I’m doing right now and even though I’d have to find a new project in two years when this one ends, I’m not ready to move on yet. Plus, I’ve really developed a reputation in a certain community for being an expert and leader in my field, and the outcome of this issue could mean I won’t be visible and actively working with that community anymore.

    1. Short & Dumpy*

      Good luck!

      I know people love to bash government employees, but after nearly 2 decades as a fed (with some ventures out into private here and there), I have to say I’ve seen more good people than bad. Managers sometimes let stuff slip day-to-day because most feds in my experience have way more on their plates than they have time to handle well. But when push comes to shove, most of them really go to bat for their employees. The majority of people in my agencies could make more money in private…they do this because they really care. If you’ve developed a reputation as an expert (assuming it isn’t for something that’s going under the knife with this administration like climate science), they’ll figure out a way to keep you doing it. It probably won’t be quick…but they usually figure out a way!

      1. Finally a Fed*

        Thanks for that, I really appreciate the encouragement! After 10 years as a support contractor with essentially zero management support, it’s been really refreshing to have managers at multiple levels working to resolve this in my favor. The speed at which it’s being dealt with is tough, but given that we are working with at least one SES’s schedule it’s understandable.

        1. Short & Dumpy*

          further reassurance…it’s not often an SES doesn’t get their way eventually! (but wheels of govt do turn slooooooowly) Even more than others, most of them have so much on their plate that when they do take a hand in something, us peons have a tendency to take their desires very, very seriously.

  37. The Ginger Ginger*

    Got promoted to a new department in my organization! I’m thrilled and excited. Looking to the future, my current manager (who will no longer be my manager post-transition) has been overseeing my work for nearly 3 years; they would be able to provide an excellent reference for me if/when I want to transition to another company. I’d like to ask them if they’d be willing to a professional reference in the future, but when is the time to ask if they’d be willing to do that if I don’t plan on going anywhere for at least a year? Should I ask as I transition into my new role, with the caveat that I don’t plan on going anywhere in the near future? I could couch it as a sort of a closing the loop on switching departments thing. Or should I wait until I actually plan on moving on completely?

    1. DDJ*

      Time might actually be on your side here. I would recommend you wait until either your former manager leaves the company, or you’re looking to leave. If you ask them now, I don’t think it will reflect well on you: you’ve just moved departments, and you’re already looking for references for when you leave? Even though that’s not your intention, that’s likely to be the knee-jerk reaction to it.

      If/when you do decide to switch companies, having a bit of distance between the move could be good, too; while you may not want your new manager to know you’re job-hunting, hopefully you will maintain the relationship with your former manager to the point that you’ll be able to ask THEM for a reference. A prospective company would probably value having perspective on your work at the company, even if it’s not from your current manager.

      Congratulations on the promotion!

  38. Namast'ay in Bed*

    If you had the opportunity to hear what your references said about you, would you? One of my references sent a recording of their reference conversation and sent it to me in case I was curious. I have no doubt that it was a good one, but I get weirded out at the idea of listening to a conversation where two people are talking about me. Should I just get over my uncomfortableness and listen? Am I wasting a good opportunity by not listening?

    **My reference is someone who always recorded all of their professional conversations, and was always very upfront about it, so this is neither out of the ordinary for them or illegal.

    1. Curious Cat*

      I have one very lovely reference who has sent me all of her reference letters she’s sent to employers because she would never “write something about me that she didn’t want me to also know,” which was kind. However, gotta say, reading the actual letter (while filled with very kind things) made me feel soooo weird. Sometimes I think these things are better left in the dark.

    2. Mona Lisa*

      I’d want to know. It would give you insight into things on which you might be able to improve, and to me, it’s always nice to hear what people think I’m doing well! It usually surprises me what other people pick up on and has helped me realize that some things I might not consider a skill are actually really valuable in the workplace.

    3. AJ*

      If you want to listen to it, but lessen the awkwardness/embarrassment, maybe listen to it in sections? Depending on how long the conversation is, listen to 1-5 minutes and then pause it and take a break. Preferably when you are doing something active (cleaning the house, running errands, working out, etc) that will allow you to digest what you’ve heard but not actively think about. The break could be 20 min, an hour, a few days, a week? If the break is longer jump into your activity right after listening and go on with the rest of your day.

    4. Hrovitnir*

      Ooo, I would not. I know for a fact that I’ve got some extremely effusive references, but (a) hearing people be effusive about me makes me mega uncomfortable in and of itself, and (b) there has to be *some* discussion of weaknesses and it just seems… uncomfortable.

      Man, you do you though! I am far to the end of being squicked out by hearing that. :P

    5. GMN*

      I can barely think of anything I want to hear more than that! Soo curious, and it’s likely to be all positive – so what is there to lose.

  39. I’m the culprit*

    My office manager & HR sent an email about medical waste not being disposed of properly. I thought it was bandaids, tampons etc.

    It was needles.

    I use needles for insulin.

    It was me.

    I’m the medical waste person.

    No one knows, or at least hasn’t said it to my face. Now I don’t know how to properly dispose of needles and I’m too scared to ask

    1. Temperance*

      A friend of mine is a Type 1 diabetic, and she has this little container that she carries around with her. I think it’s called a sharps container. Ask your doctor about getting one.

      You definitely shouldn’t throw used needles in the trash can. It’s a major health hazard.

    2. Yorick*

      Don’t be embarrassed to ask! You’ve been making a mistake but you haven’t been doing something majorly wrong.

      Check for a box in the bathroom for medical waste – I’m not sure but I think that might be how to dispose of such.

    3. artgirl*

      Can you ask HR for medical waste disposal canisters to be installed in the restrooms in your facility? This could come up for many individuals in the future.

    4. BadPlanning*

      This recently came up at my job — whether we should have Sharps containers in bathrooms. Apparently the answer was that we would not put in containers and employees should dispose of needles in their own appropriate containers.

      If you feel comfortable, I would go to HR and say, “Hey, that may have been me as I use needles for my medical condition. I did not realize that I was not doing it properly. I would like to comply, could you help me make sure that I am.”

      Any reasonable place, I hope, would be happy to know the source and get it resolved.

    5. Snark*

      How are you disposing of the needles? If it’s not into an approved sharps container, or if you’re not keeping the needles in a container of your own and disposing of them at home…..yes, you are not disposing of them properly, and that is a huge problem, because needle sticks are a janitor’s worst nightmare.

      1. starsaphire*

        In some bigger US cities, there’s often a program that lets you get free sharps disposal containers from the drugstore. In San Francisco, for example, you just walk into Walgreens and ask the pharmacist for a sharps container, and he hands you one. The city covers any expense without you having to get involved.

        Nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed about! You did what you thought you were supposed to. Now you know better, you can do better, and it’s okay. :)

    6. Marzipan*

      One pretty straightforward option is just to keep your used needles in a suitable container like a little jar or a Tupperware box or whatever, and then you can dispose of them at home (where I’m guessing you have a sharps box already? If not, do look into the local arrangements for safe disposal where you are – in the UK, you can get them collected by the local council, but I’ve no idea about the US).

      And don’t worry! You didn’t know before, now you do, and you’re working to get it sorted now you do. It’s all good!

    7. WellRed*

      NO need to go to the doctor, go to the drugstore or use a coffee can or what have you. Also, please don’t throw in the trash at home either.

    8. Anon Accountant*

      Your doctors office, medical supply store or even insurance company may be able to direct you to a discreet container for disposed of needles.

    9. You’re fine (really!) just reach out to HR*

      Naw, don’t be scared or shy at all. For all the horrible stuff that HR has to deal with, this is a small beans, totally fixable thing. Contact HR with something like “I’m concerned it might have been me, it’s for a legit medical need, and want to make I’m doing this right moving forward.” Or something similar. No awkwardness necessary. Ask to have a dedicated sharps disposal provided. That meets the very definition of reasonable accommodation and any normal, sane person/company will make that happen with no fuss.

      1. Anony*

        I’m not sure if they are required to provide the sharps disposal as an accommodation. They may require the OP to bring in the sharps disposal.

    10. Anony*

      Needles need to go into a hard container that they cannot poke through to prevent needle stick injuries to people who handle the bags. This is true even if you recap the needle (which is generally not recommended since you then risk sticking yourself with it).

    11. Short & Dumpy*

      Yup…sharps container. There are a million sizes & styles and some of them are only a few dollars. Every drug store has them or you can get them off Amazon. My dog needs twice daily injections so at home I just use an old Woolite jug & put the cap on tightly before putting it in the trash but real sharps containers should be used for human medical waste. I do get the real sharps containers when we travel with him or when the pet sitter (an experienced vet tech who likes things done right) stays.

      1. Hobgoblin*

        Second the Woolite container. A coworker recently asked me how to dispose of used needles (I’m an EMT so it’s not as weirdly random as it sounds…) and I checked our county’s website. Turns out, laundry detergent containers are a recommended way to dispose of used needles. Cheap and easy! Just remember to tape the heck out of them before chucking. But, OP, this is so not a negative thing. You’re diabetic, you inject insulin, nbd. I feel like people are generally familiar with that. It might actually be helpful to clue one or two people in just in case you have an episode of low blood sugar so they know how to be helpful.

    12. VN*

      My husband also takes a daily injection for a medical condition. He has a small Sharps container for travel and a larger one for home. The lab at our medical office accepts the containers when they are full.

    13. A Lurker Writes*

      Have you only been diagnosed recently? Your healthcare provider really should have explained to you about disposal of needles but getting a diagnosis can be scary and you’ve got a lot to take in just learning to manage blood sugars, etc

      Can you ask for a follow up appointment or a referral to a support group? There’s no shame in asking for help.

    14. Irene Adler*

      Check with the entity that collects your refuse. Don’t assume used needles need to be disposed of in SHARPS containers.

      Where I am, Escondido, CA, all I need to do with insulin needles is clip the needle off, and then toss the syringe into the regular trash. NO SHARPS CONTAINER NEEDED.

      This is the device I use to clip the needle end off from the syringe:

      https://www.bd.com/en-us/offerings/capabilities/diabetes-care/sharps-containment/bd-safe-clip-needle-clipping-and-storage-device

      Also, if you do need to put the entire needle into a SHARPS container, ask the refuse company if they consider empty plastic or metal containers (such as coffee cans or liquid laundry soap containers) to be sufficient for use as a SHARPS container. When I lived in San Diego, CA this was the case for me.

        1. Irene Adler*

          The needle is stored inside the needle clip device.
          One sticks the needle inside a little port on the side of the clip device. Then press to clip (much like a nail trimmer). The needle end is severed from the syringe. And, the needle end remains inside the unit. It won’t come out. Over time, these needle ends collect inside barrel of the clip device. I’ve been using mine for over 3 years now. So it makes a little rattle sound with all the needle ends inside it.

    15. sap*

      You should also be aware that some municipalities do not allow medical sharps container to be thrown into the trash and require the sharp container be disposed of at designated sites.

      Many pharmacies will allow you to dispose of needles that you obtain with your prescription at that pharmacy, and I have a big sharps container that I usually bring with me to the pharmacy when I pick stuff up. I also sometimes bring it to the doctor and dump it there (kindof a dick move, but I literally do not have any nonworking time when the sharps facilities in my municipalities are open).

    16. Kuododi*

      I’m an insulin dependant diabetic. I just snagged a small portable sharps container at Walgreens in my area and got info on safe container disposal from my internist office. Nothing to stress or feel guilty about….you were operating from a lack of data….now you have been updated!!! Best wishes.

    17. Pharmgirl88*

      Most pharmacies will sell sharps containers. Some of them are smaller, portable ones, and I’m sure they’re available online too. Another option would be place them in some time of hard plastic container – something like an empty laundry detergent bottle. Then you would duct tape the bottle shut and dispose in the regular trash. But something like probably might not be appropriate for work, so I’d look to find a sharps container if you can find one.

      1. Kuododi*

        At home I’ve been known to use coffee cans, empty tonic water bottles to hold my sharps when I didn’t have access to the sharps container right away. Any port in a storm!!!

    18. Triplestep*

      I have needed to self-inject in the past and I learned that police stations will take your sharps. My Rx came with a cap on the needle which I placed back on after I had injected. Then I just threw the used needles in a box, and my husband took them to the police department near his office. Easy peasy!

      Don’t worry – I only knew I couldn’t toss them in the trash because I had worked in bio-tech designing labs and had to outfit them with sharps containers. I would not have known either.

    19. banana&tanger*

      Empty soda/water bottle. Easy to carry around at work. But your pharmacy or providers really should have explained this. I’m sorry they didn’t.

  40. Dazed*

    I’ve been at my current two job for the last two years. Recently, some restructuring has been happening and it’s made the whole organization a miserable place to be. I’ve been pretty unhappy lately. I interviewed for a full time position at a local government agency on 1/25. They got back to me the following Monday and offered me the job. I accepted it the next day and the following Monday (2/5) I went and filled out my new hire paperwork.

    The new job told me it would take about one to two weeks and than I would get a phone call saying when I could start. I had to get fingerprinted and get a physical which I did on 2/7. With that in mind and because I was so eager to leave my current job, I put my notice in last week and my last day will be 3/5 (our pay period ends on Mondays).

    But now it’s been almost two weeks (the new job was closed on Monday for Lincoln’s birthday) and I haven’t gotten the phone call back or a start date. I’m starting to get nervous. They’re closed for president’s day on Monday also. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? I’m starting to get really worried they won’t call me back now. I’ve checked with my references and they’ve called the HR departments to confirm employment dates but not my personal references. They did say that the higher ups in their department had to sign off on everything before I would get a call but now I’m nervous I won’t have a job in a few weeks. Did I put my notice in to soon? I was just focused on having some time off between both jobs and leaving my shitty employment situation.

    1. HiHiHi*

      I would just give them a call on Tuesday if you haven’t heard back by then! I work for a state entity and honestly all it takes is one person in the chain being out for a few days to hold everything up, especially if it’s something where Person A needs to sign off before it can even reach Person B’s desk. It’s definitely unfair to the person waiting to hear back on a start date, but it’s never been a case of a job offer being pulled (although this is state rather than a municipality, so ymmv). Good luck!

    2. brightbetween*

      In my experience, the hold up is usually the background check. Many local governments contract with outside agencies to complete them and they frequently have a backlog, which can be highly variable. Maybe it’s different where you are, but 2 weeks would be a really short timeline here to get a start date, it’s usually more like 4 to 6 weeks. You would think that HR would know that when they gave you the 2 week timeframe, but it’s possible that there’s an unusually long backlog right now. I would call on Tuesday and check in, because they’re probably not really tracking it closely and might not realize how much time has gone by.

  41. Mike C.*

    A small rant: Could we please find a more work appropriate abbreviation for the word “cumulative”? Using the first three letters is not work appropriate. I’ve seen way too many charts that shorten this word way too far (and then repeat the word a dozen times) and it looks really, really bad. A capital epsilon (indicating summation) would work or just leaving the word off entirely but come on folks. Something. Anything. Ugh.

    /The worst part is that it inspires a lot of jokes that are also work inappropriate and I have to keep those to myself.

    1. Emi.*

      I write “cumul.” when I have to (which isn’t often). I’ve never seen epsilon for summation, though, only sigma–is it specifically for cumulative sums?

    3. starsaphire*

      I’ve seen “cume” and “cumul.” which are slightly better, but I hear what you are saying.

      (And so does my inner 12-year-old boy.)

    4. Natalie*

      “Cumulative” thankfully doesn’t come up much, but someone in my company is a big fan of the worst possible shortening of “Analysis”.

      1. Cordelia Vorkosigan*

        LOL! I’m reminded of the days when I used to be a teacher, and a student once emailed me an assignment. He’d named the file “myass.doc.”

        1. Elizabeth West*

          My favorite one was from the book Up the Down Staircase, in which the principal’s assistant would sign himself “J.J. McHabe, Adm. Asst. The protagonist likes to refer to him as “Admiral Ass.”

      2. Lissa*

        At my work (post secondary) on schedules they have a section for “Method” which means lab, lecture, seminar etc. They abbreviate it Meth, so yeah, a lot of schedules with Meth Lab on them….

      3. Ingray*

        At my side job I deal with .ass files but I’ve long since stopped finding it funny (even though it objectively it).

      4. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

        Every LaTeX file I produce has a line in the preamble that says “\hyphenation{analysis}”, so that the auto-hyphenation won’t touch that word!

    5. Summa cum laude*

      Eh, if that’s bad we’re also going to have to change the distinctions on every over achiever’s degree. How hard is it to just be mature and recognize it’s a word that’s used differently in different situations?

    7. Jillociraptor*

      Let’s f/u on this later. (Or worse: f/up!)

      I always kind of worried that I was just really immature for finding this kind of stuff a little off, but REALLY PEOPLE.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        To be clear, the REALLY PEOPLE is, “could you try to use language that doesn’t evoke something NSFW?”

        1. Weak Trees*

          Could. Don’ wanna. I use “fu” as my shorthand specifically to indicate my personal feelings toward the person/item I’m chasing on. :)

          1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            ME TOO!!! I do a lot of chasing, which I document, which ends up being notated as “FU by email 2/1, FU by phone (NA) 2/5, FU by email 2/10”.

            I hate having to follow up with people multiple times, and it makes me feel just a little better seeing that I gave them an “FU” each time.

    8. LAI*

      Oh I work at a university, so we use that abbreviation A LOT. Like cumulative GPA or cumulative units. There is limited space on a transcript so we really can’t spell out the whole word, and choosing a different word would mean the entire university agreeing on an alternative. There are also the latin honors for cum laude, etc. but that’s the actual word so not much to be done about that.

    9. Synonymous*

      Every time my husband tells me about submitting his “Time and Attendance,” I tell him his office should really think up a different abbreviation. After I’m done giggling, of course.

    10. Rainy*

      I work in higher ed, so I see this a lot, but it honestly doesn’t ever flag NSFW for me, because my “home” discipline is Classics.

      (If you didn’t know, cum is Latin for “with, when, because, although”. I always enjoyed Cum Clause week when I was teaching.)

  42. Backstage Rachel*

    I have a white dog and have to wear black all the time! How do you guys get rid of the most sticky animal hair from your work clothes??

    1. Curious Cat*

      As a cat owner of a cat who has enough fur to make another cat, all I can say is roller brush roller brush roller brush all day every day

      1. k.k*

        I have a big lint roller in my car, a mini one in my purse, and on occasion have DIY’d with some masking tape. One thing that helps is that for clothes that really attract hair, I keep them as far away from my dogs as possible. Like I don’t get dressed until I’m practically out the door, don’t sit down in them at home, wash them separately, etc. Basically quarantine that outfit.

        But mostly, I’ve just given up and buy clothes and furniture that match my dogs.

        1. Joielle*

          Funny story – when I was buying my last couch, I couldn’t decide between two different fabrics, and the deciding factor was that I took the two swatches, rubbed them on the dog, and picked the one that showed the fur less. Good thing, too, because I would have been constantly vacuuming the other one!

      2. Ambpersand*

        Keep one in your purse, in your car, at your desk, by the front door- everywhere. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been saved by my car lint roller when I get to work and realize I’m wearing an accidental fur sweater.

    3. BadPlanning*

      Recently, more furry critters came into my life and I’m struggling to keep fur at a minimum.

      On somethings, I’m using a lint roller before I toss things in the wash, if they are very furry. Otherwise, lint roll before putting it on and avoid cuddles on my way out the door.

      I used to keep a spare lint roller in the glove box in my car — I need to add one there too.

      I use the sticky lint rollers with disposable sheets. Has anyone had success with reusable brushes that don’t have the tear off sheets?

    4. Marzipan*

      I realised too late, on a day this week when I needed to look presentable, that my black shirt was completely covered in cat hairs. I backwards-sellotaped my hand and got them off that way!

    5. Applesauced*

      As soon as your get home, change out of work clothes (I’ve been rolling my eyes at the “athlesuire” trend, but damn it, leggings are comfy!).
      If possible, wash work stuff (or anything to be pupper-hair-free) separately.
      Lint roll RIGHT before you leave. I keep mine in the coat closet, so I lint roll, put on coat, and leave. Leaves minimal time to get dog-haired.
      I haven’t tried it (my pup isn’t TOO bad of a shedder) but I hear a dry dish-washing glove (the rubber kind) can act as a hair magnet.

      1. Alex*

        This is exactly what I do. I get dressed right before I walk out the door, and change as soon as I come in.

        1. Ree*

          I do this too, as a white dog owner who prefers to wear dark clothing :))
          The dog also only gets head pats before I leave, no hugs and no like, rubbing against my legs allowed.

          Mostly it’s just about getting dressed right before you leave and changing when you get home.
          Also, don’t set your clothes out, Pull them straight from the closet or drawer before you put them on.

        2. As Close As Breakfast*

          I have 2 dogs and 2 cats. 1 dog/cat black and white, the other 1 dog/cat are shades of brown. So basically, no matter what I want to wear, I’m screwed. In addition to the lint rollers, my greatest defense has also been to get dressed right before I leave. I actually have a separate PJ like outfit I put on specifically after I shower and wear all through the rest of my morning routine. Changing from that to my work clothes is literally the last thing I do before I leave. It definitely helps! If I can keep the animals off of me for that precious 2-3 minutes between the closet and the door anyway!! Good luck!

      2. Rainy*

        The second I get home I take my work clothes off and put on playclothes. I don’t sit down at all, ever, in the morning from the moment I put my work clothes on in order to minimize the chances of acquiring accidental cat hair.

    6. Namast'ay in Bed*

      If I’m being honest, I don’t. I do use a lint roller to try to not look like she recently rolled all over me, but at this point I’ve recognized a losing battle when I see one. A good sense of humor about it has worked for me (“ha yea, as you can see Rhapsody likes to come with me wherever I go”), most people have responded well to that. But yea, it’s super frustrating to lint roll, wash the clothes, lint roll again, and then still see those little hairs.

    7. rosiebyanyothername*

      I have a little mini lint roller at my desk! Found it at CVS. Works well on stray cat hairs.

    8. Llama Wrangler*

      I haven’t tried this, but this seems like a good solution that is waste free and easy to keep at your desk: https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/the-best-lint-remover-real-review-oxo-furlifter-252923

      Also, my biggest issue was hair getting on everything in the wash/dryer. The things that worked for me to minimize that were: putting clothes covered in hair in the dryer on air for 5 minutes to shake the hair loose, cleaning the lint trap twice during the drying cycle, and using dryer balls to minimize static.

    9. HR Recruiter*

      I wear sweat pants around the house while I get ready. In case the dog rubs up against my legs. When I’m ready I put him in his room and then change my pants and leave. There is still some transfer just because there is dog hair in my car. So I have a roller in my car and my desk.

    10. Sabrina Spellman*

      I’ve been struggling with this since a wonderful longhaired siamese came into my life. I do use a lint roller a lot, but things i’ve googled said you can put your clothes in the dryer without a heat setting before washing to get rid of the hairs. Not sure if it works yet!

    11. Goya de la Mancha*

      Lint Rollers and don’t work “work” clothes around the house. I have clothes for specific use in my drawers/closet – not a perfect system, but it’s as close as I’ll get without getting rid of my dog (and that sure isn’t going to happen!).

    12. Joielle*

      I feel your pain! I wear mostly black and between our two cats and dog, we have every possible fur color. I just lint roll. All the time. At least two or three times a day. I buy the roller refills in bulk.

      1. Joielle*

        Oh, also, I don’t sit on the couch in my work clothes. Partially because there’s fur on the couch, but also because the second I sit down, there will be at least one animal trying to climb into my lap :)

  43. Anon Accountant*

    Are there any plans for Alison to offer resume reviews again any time soon? I’m getting desperate and hoping there’s plans ASAP. Because it looks like there’s many of us in the board struggling with job searches now.

    No pressure :)

  44. Hellanon*

    Okay, who’s made good progress on something this week? Wanna talk about it?

    I’ll start: I have a massive crashing deadline next week, and I can finally say I will hit it. I’m working from home today & am going to use the time to deal with all the stray odds and ends, I’ll get comments back from Second Reader on Monday and finish the project, then it goes in. And I’ve hit my other deadlines (the reason I’m so tight on this one) and my staffer is making good progress on her PIP. So it’s good. But boy howdy am I looking forward to the end of next week!

    1. DC*

      Hi yes! I made huge strides towards leaving my toxic place- I got an offer! I’m really hopeful about the prospects, and just a little hesitant about jumping on something so I’m being overly cautious.

      Whoot!

    2. Parenthetically*

      Me! Both work and non-work. Talked with my boss about plans for next school year (may be able to get my son into an awesome MDO/PDO program next fall so I could be going back to work part time again, which is an unexpected development) AND made some contacts for a friend who is trying to arrange to take his Long Service Leave (Australian labor policies hollaaaa) here in my city. Also my husband and I got his 401k stuff from his new job squared away with our extremely awesome financial person (uh… funds manager? what do you call those folks?). Feeling fairly productive. :)

    4. Sabrina Spellman*

      My entire department has been working on a massive project for the past three years. One part is complete while another is still in progress. We hit an issue a few months back and had a call with a consultant today. I was hoping I wasn’t simply an idiot, but it appears I’m not! We had an enormous brainstorming session after and I think we’re picking up steam!

    5. only acting normal*

      Oooh me me me!
      This week’s mini-triumph: I redesigned a key algorithm in our main computer model. Micromanager has been moaning about it for YEARS, but flat out refused to give me the time to re-code it, preferring to manually tweak the inputs/outputs to get to sensible results. So I did it behind his back, in 3 days, and it works bloody brilliantly producing better results than the manual tweaks do in a fraction of the time.
      I *may* have done a small victory celebration at my desk when I cracked it. :)

      1. Bea W*

        You are my hero!

        Seriously, I wish more people would take that kind of initiative to fix things that are broken rather than accept them with tedious work-arounds even when the boss has no interest in a fix. When I took over some supervisory duties from a similar boss, I found people quietly accepting and suffering broken code and broken functionality. Oh no, we’ll have none of that silliness here! Report these things. I will get them fixed. No one should be wasting time on tedious manual fixes to something that is supposed to be fully automatic. No. Just no. You’re time is valuable. This is such a pet peeve of mine.

        1. only acting normal*

          :) Thanks I felt a bit heroic!
          I’m very much a get it fixed person, and usually it’s very welcome where I work, it’s just Micromanager who is resistant (usually because he can’t see the fix himself, and he doesn’t trust anyone else’s ideas). It’s not the first time I’ve had to go behind his back, probably won’t be the last. Worst part is he’ll be pleased with the result, but bitter experience shows he *still* will not trust my judgement.

  45. The New Wanderer*

    Job hunting is really the worst this week. I saw an online posting yesterday for a job that sounded like a great fit, considering I had done that exact same job for, oh, 12 years for one of their major competitors. I tailored my resume and cover letter and went through the online application, which asked some unfortunate required questions (salary expectations, graduation year, whether or not I had a STEM degree*). Submitted, and then went back to email myself the job description. Checked my email to see if it arrived and I already had an automated rejection – no details, just “no thanks”. Less than 2 minutes and after close of business, which means no human eyes saw my cover letter or any significant details other than, I’m assuming, the required questions.

    Which to me says, if there’s some deal-breaker you are screening on in the first 10 seconds of an application screen, put it in the frickin’ job description so I don’t waste my time!

  46. Ella Ella Ella*

    Do you have a Coworker Who Never Stops Emailing?

    My most baffling coworker, Trish, is notoriously demanding and controlling despite not being anyone’s manager. One of the ways she likes to insert herself into our lives is by sending out several emails a day with links to articles she thinks we need to be informed on. It’s stuff tangentially related to work (ie, we create and sell umbrellas and she will email us articles about changes in the umbrella or rain gear industry) which means usually, I’ve already seen it! She loves to forward industry-wide newsletter that we all already receive to have us pay attention to some piece that is tangentially related to us or to a conversation we’ve had recently.

    Every single person rolls their eyes but no one is brave enough to ask her to stop the barrage of emails, and our manager is scared to manage her. Mostly it’s harmless, just irritating (who wants MORE email?), but it’s occasionally bordered on insensitive – telling us about how some international tragedy incorporated one of our umbrellas in the most obscure way (ie: “in the light of X wildfire it’s important we discuss that Y store burned down, which once carried some of our products”).

    Privately I suspect she wants to seem more important and informed than she is, but I’d love to hear some stories from y’all about similar coworkers.

    1. Snark*

      Oh, I have a professional contact who spams his entire email, Facebook, and LinkedIn circles endlessly with articles – and given that my work touches on environmental science, government, policy, and environmental regulations and compliance, there’s a bottomless freaking well of articles for him to share. I’ve ended up just filtering his emails, because he was totally nonresponsive to requests that he not blast me with articles 6-7 times a day, but with a coworker, that’s complicated.

      What if several people banded together to request a single email? Hey, Trish, thanks for passing on so much good information” because, buttah that bread “but we’re feeling like our inboxes are really hard to manage as it is, so could you condense all these resources into one daily email?”

      1. Snark*

        Alternatively, just set a filter to mark her email as read and move to a folder, and let the chips fall where they may. If you miss something important, “Oh, sorry, Trish, I must have just missed that one,” with or without the guaranteed-to-piss-her-off addendum that “When I get so many emails from you that don’t contain anything actionable, sometimes it’s easy to miss when you send something urgent.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you ask her to compile these types of things into a weekly digest? That way, she still gets to feel like she sharing important info, but you only have one email to delete or set to auto-trash :)

    3. Work Wardrobe*

      Oh yeah, we have a Trish… people essentially read the first couple lines of her emails and then delete. It’s usually a rehash of old news, trying to assert power (she has none) or throwing shade on, for example, a WFH colleague who “probably isn’t really working because she isn’t returning my emails!”

      Of course she isn’t — because your emails need no response.

    4. Anon because this might be too identifying*

      She loves to forward industry-wide newsletter that we all already receive to have us pay attention to some piece that is tangentially related to us or to a conversation we’ve had recently.

      I worked with someone like this! There were a group of us who were involved in a particular technology, and the unofficial (but universally accepted) leader of the group sent an email to all of us about something. She was also in the group, and she FORWARDED it to the rest of us (who had already received it) with a note that said we should read it because it was really important.

      Privately I suspect she wants to seem more important and informed than she is

      When she forwards the newsletter, I might reply with “In the future, you don’t need to forward this to me; I already receive this newsletter” (and ignore the inevitable follow-ups). Otherwise, I’d just bask in the knowledge that she’s failing pretty hard at her objective.

      1. Ella Ella Ella*

        How do you resist following-up on her follow-up “really important” notes until it’s a never-ending chain of folks seconding, thirding, fourthing Emailboss’s recommendation that it’s important.

    6. Betsy*

      Yes, I have this guy. He doesn’t generally spam everyone, so the way to avoid things is not to get on any projects with him. Unfortunately, I just volunteered to take on some extra work, without realising he’d be also volunteered to be involved in the project. He will send literally twenty emails back and forth a day about a project. He’s super nitpicky and pedantic. I try to send back the minimum number of replies I can get away with while still being polite and making progress. I’ve been told that a lot of people find it painful, which makes me relieved, because at first I was worried perhaps I was the one who was somehow causing an issue.

    7. Hildegard Vonbingen*

      I’ve had the occasional colleague like the one you describe. I made up a rule for their emails, checked them at the end of the day – mostly just scanning the stuff and deleting – and was done with it. Took maybe five minutes, and I wasn’t scrupulous about checking it every day. I don’t have time to waste on malarkey like that, so I dispense with it quickly. If there’s something time-sensitive and mission critical, the person can text or call. IME they seldom did because their emails were basically useless.

  47. Lady Blerd*

    Tales from a cubicle farm: So it’s lunch time. My minions are gone and I sit at my desk knitting, with my earphones one to listen to a podcast that I downloaded over the air (forgetting that it’s on Spotify but that’s neither here nor there). I was facin away from my section’s entrance so I daresay that my demeanor suggested that I was closed for business. Out of the corner of my eye, I spot a colleague who sits next to me, with his knitting and engages in a convo. I did not invite him, there is not arrangement for an office knitting bee even though I do talk about knitting with him when I pass his desk. He actually asks what I’m listening too and continues talking with my earphones still on. So what was supposed to be me chilling at my desk knitting turned into an unplanned socializing. Next time he will have a gentle talk to.

    1. SoCalHR*

      whoa – I could understand this happening if you were in the breakroom, but that’s a bold move since you were at your desk.

      1. As Close As Breakfast*

        It took me 3 reads of this before I realized you wrote ‘breakroom’ and not ‘bathroom’! I could NOT understand why desk was weirder than bathroom…

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I think this is just a simple wavelength mismatch. “Sorry, this is my downtime so I’m not socializing. Cool onesie, though.”

        1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

          Perfect. Gets the person to move on without giving the impression that their company as a whole is unpleasant. We all need our downtime. I think most folks can understand that and not take it as a personal rejection.

      3. Lady Blerd*

        I’m sorry I missed the responses. It’s not that I’m against lunchtime socializing, even as an introvert I often enthusiastically hang out with my colleagues. It’s just that on that day I was not up to it. I would not impose myself on someone who’s body language looked like mine.

  48. Mona Lisa*

    What is the etiquette surrounding working with recruiters and applying to multiple recruiter job postings?

    I’m considering moving on after the offer I got to turn my interim position into permanent didn’t meet the salary expectations they’d promised me when I started. I found a recruiting agency that posts jobs exclusive to my field, and I’ve been contacting the different recruiters about some positions. I’m really open to moving anywhere since my husband I don’t like the town we live in, but we have friends and family scattered around the country. Is it weird to apply with the same recruiter for multiple positions in very different cities (like Salt Lake City and Chicago) if they’re essentially the same job? I address the wanting to move in my cover letter with each position I’ve tossed my resume at, and with each recruiter to whom I’ve spoke, I try to reiterate that I’m very open to relocating for the right job.

    1. Bea W*

      Not at all weird. There’s one recruiter I’ve worked with who has on occasion had a few good options in the same city and has put my applications in simultaneously. It’s no different than applying multiple places on your own.

    2. Natalie*

      Not only is it not weird, it’s par for the course in my experience. Every time I’ve worked with a recruiter they’ve always been willing to submit my resume to multiple positions and/or forward me to a colleague if that person has a listing I’m qualified for & interested in.

  49. TotesMaGoats*

    Good week round up.

    I was out 3 days for sinus surgery last week and came back Monday. It was so nice to feel missed (and know that nothing burned down while gone). The security guard doing his morning sweep said welcome home. I almost teared up.

    I got to do a informal 360 on my boss, the dean. That’s fairly unusual to get to do in my experience in higher ed outside of a special leadership development seminar. This was a part of the annual review process.

    I had my one year anniversary and can’t tell you how different it feels here vs last job. And last job still has not replaced me or changed my voicemail. My mom keeps accidentally calling and it’s still me.

  50. beanie beans*

    Adding to the awkardness theme yesterday.

    I chatted with my boss’s boss informally a few days ago about how I was liking my new role. I said it was going great and had asked my boss to keep the projects coming. Apparently he interpreted that as me being underutilized and bored, which he passed on to by boss. Which boss asked me about yesterday.

    I think we all agreed it was just a funny misunderstanding but I was still mortified that’s how he interpreted it, and to put that into my boss’s brain! Sigh. Friday.

    1. Hildegard Vonbingen*

      It’s a simple misunderstanding…you know, the kind of thing that happens to humans all the time. No need to be mortified. The issue’s been cleared up, so it’s OK to just let it go. Please enjoy your weekend minus stewing about this. You’re doing well! That’s the thing to remember, IMO. And congrats on liking your new job. That’s a wonderful thing, and you deserve it.

  51. WeevilWobble*

    I’m not sure if I should apply for a promotion I know I won’t get? The position had been speculated on for awhile. And early on my boss had suggested I should apply for it. But then recently she told me she had the perfect person in mind (a friend from her old job.)

    I know this is telling me not to bother. But I kind of want to be formally rejected. I’ve been here five years with no other possibility for advancement. So, it’s time to start looking elsewhere. And when I do leave I don’t want them to claim I never showed any interest in advancement.

    On the other hand, it could make things awkward while I’m still here. Which could be for awhile.

    1. Former Govt Contractor*

      I would go ahead and apply since she did suggest you should apply at one time, and you don’t know if the person she thought would be perfect is interested in the job.

    2. KarenT*

      I would apply. Who knows if her friend is even interested. I would tell her, though, so it’s not weird. Just a casual, “Hey, I know you mentioned you have someone in mind for the open position, but I still want to throw my hat in the ring in case it doesn’t work out.”

  52. anon for this one*

    I’ve seen a few posts here about working with an employee with BO, but not this situation:

    I recently interviewed someone whose BO was so bad that I almost wanted to leave the room as soon as I walked in. He was neatly groomed, so I don’t think it was a bathing issue. Although he wouldn’t have been reporting to me, if hired he would have been seated next to me in very close quarters. (My office is so crowded that temps have to move from desk to desk based on who is on vacation or sick, so it’s not like we could have just put him somewhere where his BO wouldn’t be a problem.)

    This is a potential ADA nightmare, right? It might not be his fault, but it’s DEFINITELY not my fault, and if we hire him, it’s my problem!

    2. Yorick*

      It may be his clothes instead of his actual body.

      In any case, I wouldn’t assume there’s an ADA issue because someone smells bad.

      1. WellRed*

        I knew a girl like this in grade school (forgot all about her until I saw this, so you know how bad it was).

      2. Bea W*

        I knew a boy with this issue. He took care to shower twice a day and apply deoderant liberally to minimize his BO as much as possible. That has to be tough to live with.

    4. Hellanon*

      Not the direct answer, but I had to talk to one of my reports about dental hygiene once… talk about awkward! Turns out, he hadn’t been to the dentist in years because of $$$ reasons, but we talked about how a) the company had an excellent dental plan (he was new) and b) the nature of the job was such that it put him into close proximity with others, and he had to respect their needs – in this case, to not be exposed to his extreme halitosis. His work was good, but people were starting to request that they not be asked to work with him, which would compromise his reputation and potentially his advancement.

      I just dove right in – “Hey, this is really awkward, but I need to talk to you about something important.” It all worked out, and I’ve kept the lesson: say it kindly, but say it.

      1. nep*

        From someone with chronic bad breath, thanks for doing that. Direct, kind — just getting it done. Good on ya.
        (I need considerable dental work done and currently can’t afford it. I’ve talked (or texted) with co-workers about it myself, to help lift some of the awkward off of them; somehow it’s a slight bit less horrible if they know I know. One of them I talked to gave me a gentle little hint the other day while we were talking. Man I’ll be relieved when I can get these dental issues tackled.)
        Did the situation improve in time?

        1. Hellanon*

          Oh yeah. He needed a good year of really thorough cleanings, which he got, and ended up having a perfectly reasonable career with the company. Never heard another word about it from his coworkers so I counted it a win… good luck with your dental issues. That’s just all kinds of expensive not-fun!

    5. Ambpersand*

      My last job (in higher ed) actually implemented a system to file formal complaints for anything that was considered “disruptive”- the list included offensive body odor and strong perfumes. It applied to staff, faculty, and students. It was awkward for the guy in charge of addressing the complaints but I’ve never seen an issue clear up so quick.

  53. MsChanandlerBong*

    The new job is going well, with one minor annoyance. Our system does not prevent more than one person from accessing/updating the same project ID (which is silly, but it is what it is). Every so often, I will spend 20 minutes editing a submission, sending feedback to the writer, etc. only to find that my boss has come along and completed the task without asking me if I am working on it. I have asked him a few times to please ask me what project ID I am working on so that we are not duplicating our efforts, but he keeps doing it. It’s a minor thing, but it’s frustrating!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      That’s not minor! If the system can’t prevent conflicts, the next steps should be to either only allow 1 person access to the system at scheduled times, rigidly enforce the division of work (as in, make sure that submission is assigned to you, and get used to the system where no one touches another person’s assigned submissions), or find a way to save your work outside the system.

      The last one is what I often do for web editing anyway due to my personal preference for certain HTML editing tools, and if I couldn’t save the code I’d still have it in the editing tool. However, that last one is probably not possible or even helpful, depending on the work you do. But if you are writing letters to respond to submitters, and your boss isn’t duplicating that part of the work, maybe write it in Notepad, then copy and paste it into your normal system; that way, if the system doesn’t save it, you still have a copy in Notepad.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I agree with you; it’s just not a priority right now. We’re rolling out two new products/systems, so improvements to the existing system are on the back burner. There should be some way to “lock” the task so that no one else can open it while a content manager is working on it. I will say that he’s the only person who does this, though; the rest of us have worked out that we need to ask the other managers when we arrive at work if they are already working on a task. When we work at the same time, we post task IDs in Slack as we work on them so other people know not to touch them. It’s just that my boss will randomly decide he wants to review tasks instead of doing his other work and then not ask us if we’re working on the task he wants to open.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well, I’m sure you know this, but maybe it will help to read it: your options are to try to force your boss to start doing things differently (not unthinkable if you have a good relationship and they’re just doing inefficient things out of habit, and really want to stop), or see it as the boss’ prerogative to allocate their subordinates’ time however they like, even if that means wasting it. If too much time is wasted, presumably their department/area would fall behind or have horrible metrics, and they would be forced to fix it by someone over them, who has authority to demand it.

          I know it’s frustrating, though.

          If it’s the former, maybe a Post-It on their monitor reminding them to check Slack before starting work on a submission?

  54. Wrenched*

    Have any of you walked away from your “dream career” in order to pursue something that was more financially stable? Or have you walked away from something more financially stable to pursue a dream career? How did you feel about your choice?

    Over December/January, I applied for several PhD programs (in a humanities field). I’m waiting to hear back, so no guarantees that the PhD will even be an option, but I’m feeling so torn. One part of my brain is screaming, This is not a good idea! There’s no work! You’ll be poor forever! and the other part of my wants this so much. To make things harder, I’m in my early thirties and single, so very much feeling the pressure to provide for myself. I’d love to hear how some of you dealt with this kind of decision.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      There is no “dream career”. It doesn’t exist. It’s a myth.

      Without knowing what you plan to do with a PhD, I can’t tell you if it is a wise financial decision or not. I would never get a PhD (or even a Masters), unless I had funding being provided to me by the Uni program. Self financing a PhD is a huge mistake.

      However, if you have full funding, you still have to ask yourself, “Will I enjoy doing the things I will do all day when I get the job I think I want?”

      For example, will you like teaching? Can you afford to be an adjunct for a while? Are you comfortable publishing? Can you survive the brutal world of campus politics? Those are just a few things to consider.

      1. Wrenched*

        Answer is YES, I would love to do what the PhD will qualify me to do. To some degree, I already do it in my current role (I received a master’s in the field nearly ten years ago and teach lower-level courses at a college) – but I need the PhD to move up. I love doing this; it energizes me; it excites me.

        But then I read about the adjuncts living out of their cars and am terrified – which is why I’m curious about the experiences of people who have walked away from things they love doing in order to do things they’re kind of *meh* about that pay the bills.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          You say you need a PhD to move up. Does that mean you could keep your current position while you get (and then theory after) you have the degree? That might resolve some of the financial hardship questions.

          1. Wrenched*

            Sadly, no. My PhD field does not really offer online/distance options – it has to be in residence, so back to a grad student stipend. I’m okay with that for five years, it’s more the after-I-graduate part that has me nervous.

            1. Betsy*

              I think if you’re really OK with the option that what you end up doing might not be at a much higher level than what you’re doing right now, it might be OK. If you have a PhD and teaching experience you can most likely keep being an adjunct. Or there’s a possibility you could get really lucky and get an amazing job.

              I think you just need to be OK with the fact that you would be doing this because you want to, rather than because it would necessarily advance your career, because unfortunately most PhD graduates end up having to leave academia. It would be worth really looking into the statistics about PhD completion rates and post PhD careers. They can be hard to find, but could be good to have a look at to see how much risk you would be willing to take on.

        2. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

          Fellow PhD-holder here! I walked away from that career path because I realized that the job/environmental conditions surrounding the thing I loved doing would make (and actually had been making) me unhealthy and miserable.

          The supply/demand/adjunct crisis you referred to is exactly as bad as described. At least at the type of schools that you’d actually feel happy to work at–culturally, economically, and location-wise. (Do you want to live somewhere where you have to wait 6+ months to see a healthcare specialist because the supply of local doctors is so low but the demand in the population is so high? Do you want to have to drive a few hours to get to the nearest airport so that you can attend a conference, or so you can buy a car without dealing with small-town shadyness at the local car dealerships? Do you want to send your child to an elementary school that’s more worn-down and lacking in good teachers compared to the one you attended? Do you want to be surrounded by the CONSTANT grumblings of other unhappy faculty who hate their jobs but they can’t/won’t actually do anything to improve their situation?)

          Instead, I got an applied job until I could figure out exactly what I wanted to do. Now I’m much more financially stable and know what I’m aiming for next. And I haven’t had to sacrifice or give up the kinds of research activities that made me fall in love with the idea of becoming a professor once upon a time.

          I’m sorry to be blunt, but don’t do it. You may love the idea of professorship, but if you’re lucky enough to do it (highly unlikely, given objective employment data) your environment may just chew you up and spit you out.

          1. Wrenched*

            Part of the problem that I’m running into is that nothing else really interests me. I don’t have a clear picture of what “applied jobs” are open to me after six years of teaching introductory courses at a tiny community college – but I do love teaching; not knowing what possibilities are out there makes me more reluctant to move to a stable-but-boring job. Well-meaning family members suggest that I drop back and get certified to become a nurse; someone even suggested that I become an Aldis manager.

            I appreciate all your feedback! Partly I’m venting online here – it’s helpful to hear other people’s experiences and thoughts! :)

            1. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

              All of that is completely understandable. I think a lot of people pursue PhDs for those reasons! I loved teaching and mentoring bright young people.

              I have a colleague who also loved teaching and never wanted to give that up. She took a chance on a training job with a big hospital chain (I think) and loved it. There’s definitely a market–especially in metro areas–for people who want to focus on training and org development. Sure, sometimes the focus of the job is dry (i.e., basic new employee orientations and whatnot), but at some orgs the job can be pretty fascinating (i.e., educating police officers about implicit racial biases that may contribute to the unnecessary deaths of unarmed black suspects).

              I also know some other people who went on to work as instructional designers (think: the people who made Blackboard–and then every other similar product that was much less crappy than Blackboard).

              If you have (or want to develop) qualitative research skills that people from the humanities tend to have, you might also enjoy work as a UX Researcher. (Think: asking people what they love/hate about various aspects of their lives, and then translating those research insights into products that actually make their lives better.)

              Finally, even if you did have to take on a boring regular job to pay the bills, there’s nothing keeping you from launching something of your own that would allow you to teach/educate. Alison’s certainly done that here with her blog. Not saying you should start a monetized blog or online course series, but there’s definitely digital entrepreneurship options out there for you to use those smarts! :)

              1. Wrenched*

                Thanks for lots to chew on! Slightly off-topic question: When you moved out of academia, did you have a job lined up, or did you move out first? One thing that I’m running into is that because of the way the education cycle works, it’s difficult to find a job (Nobody wants to hire me in February to work in mid-May, and my current dean would be very upset if she didn’t find out until mid-May or June that I was not returning for the fall semester). I’d love to hear how other people worked this out.

                1. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

                  I actually went the alt-ac route at first (org research job for university–which paid close to $15k more than the typical assistant prof starting salary, with significantly better work-life balance AND a much shorter application-to-first-day-of-job turnaround time of ~3 months or so). I had a PhD by that time, though, so it may have helped. Before I landed that position, I had just been working this telecommuting job I had had since grad school (paid the bills more than my former adjuncting gigs did when I was still a student, but with work that was actually consistent month after month). The significantly faster turnaround time for non-ac jobs is something that I’m actually still getting used to. Anyway, I think that finding a more consistent/profitable “can do” job (that you’re willing and able to do, even if you’re not sure it’s what you want career-wise) until you figure out your next steps is a good move. It’s better to explore from a place of security than from a place of academic precarity that semester-long teaching contracts (that may or may not be renewed) can impose on the psyche.

        3. Trout 'Waver*

          PhD programs of all stripes dramatically overestimate the completion rate. 30%+ of people who start a PhD don’t finish it.

        4. deesse877*

          This is going to sound harsh, but I don’t see any love for research as such in your self-description. I see you talking about a credential that could qualify you for a job you want. That’s a reasonable way to look at a masters’ degree, but not a PhD in the humanities. Even if you have some expectations of moving up with your current employer (which can happen at CC’s), the sheer weight of the work will decrease your quality of life unless you ABSOLUTELY LOVE that work.

          1. Betsy*

            Hmmmm, I disagree with this. Completing a PhD is still being a student. For me it was one of the easier parts of my life. I find working full-time much harder. I think it’s a huge luxury to study full-time.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I agree completely. Humanities PhD programs are hellish. It (research, presenting at conferences, being criticized, teaching, comparing yourself negatively to everyone else in your field, struggling, feeling incompetent) has to be the only thing you can imagine yourself doing or the misery will never be worth it.

    2. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

      Fellow PhD-holder here!

      Pursuing the PhD would only be worth it if: (1) you already have a zero-to-small amount of debt (no more than $15k across all possible debts); (2) you get full funding; (3) you’ll be living in a reasonably priced metro area with plenty of job and internship opportunities (more Austin, TX, less Seattle, WA); (4) you commit to at least 1-2 non-academic career paths AND do internships/gain other applied experiences in those fields every year; and (5) you take on little to no additional debt to complete your degree (so, really think about the stipend–if any–your program would provide); (6) you’ve spoken with recent grads of your particular school’s program AND recent grads in general about their post-grad lives; and (7) I have no idea what your gender is or whether you want children of your own, but really, really think about that and how being in the program and your likely post-grad life would impact that decision.

      Absolutely ALL of these things should be done before you take on this HUGE commitment.

      1. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

        Apologies for the double responses to your question; I thought this comment didn’t “take” and then moved on with my other comment (presented a bit further up). These things are still worth considering, though. :)

    3. Thlayli*

      I am very pragmatic so apologies if this comes across as rude – I’ve found sometimes things that seem obvious to me are offensive to other people.

      A PhD is a significant cost in both time and money. Even if you get a full scholarship and don’t end up in debt you are still forgoing pension deposits, savings etc that you would have been building up from a better paying role.

      Education can be used for two purposes – for investment in your career (eg getting a qualification in an area that you can work in in thhe future) or just education for educations sake – which is essentially a hobby.

      When you do a PhD in an area you are likely to get work in, it’s an investment in your career. Whether it’s worth it comes down to how much the PhD will cost versus how much you expect it to boost your income by. Simple cost-benefit analysis, basic arithmetic.

      Doing a PhD in an area you are interested in, but are not likely to get well-paying work in, is not an investment. It’s basically a hobby. Now I love the idea of education for educations sake, and when I am retired or if I ever win the lotto I would love to go back to college and study something just for fun, and I hopefully will some day. But don’t kid yourself that it’s anything other than a time-consuming and expensive hobby.

      Unless you are independently wealthy and can afford to spend 3-7 years and a load of money on your hobby, I don’t think you should do it. Now is the time to focus on your career and try to earn enough money while you are still young and fit enough to work, that it will last you the rest of your life. You are in your early thirties so assuming you are healthy you could easily live another 60 years. You will not be able to work for another 60 years though. Unless you want to be still working hard at 75, you need to focus on earning enough money in the next 30-40 years, and putting enough into a pension, that you can afford to retire at 70 and live off your pension. Then you will have all the time you want to follow your hobby. Follow it now, get into debt to follow it, and you could end up working till you are 80, or being completely destitute when you are no longer able to work.

      1. Thlayli*

        I wrote this before I saw that you are already teaching in a college. So I guess it is likely to help in your career, (assuming you teach in the same field) so it’s more about the first point I made – is the amount of time and money You will be investing worth it based on the bump in income it would give you.

        I must admit I’ve never heard of college teachers being so poor they had to live in their car – I feel like I’m misunderstanding something there. I would say that any career which is so badly paid you can’t aford to rent a room with a bed is definitely not a career I would do a PhD in.

        1. Reba*

          “Living in cars” likely refers to adjunct and other precarious academic positions, which are now the majority of teaching positions. TT profs still do pretty well, if you can get the gig.

          2. Thlayli*

            I see… sort of. Is adjunct a role you would do while you were still studying?

            If there are way more PhD grads than TT roles then OP might be better off staying where she is.

    4. Jady*

      When I was younger, I wanted and had even planned to go into a creative career. I applied to a specific college that had a good program for that. Oddly enough, there was some mixups with my application. I didn’t get an acceptance letter until I was already enrolled somewhere else. Things were paid and scheduled, etc.

      Since it was just convenient, I decided to stay at the current school for the year taking the typical generic required classes to graduate, and transfer.

      Just over that year I started really thinking about careers and money and reading more and more information about actually working in that field. For the money alone, I decided I’d go into something more practical – IT. I had the offhanded thought that I’d become famous for my work and be able to quit, or turn my talent into some kind of business. IT was at least a partial interest to me, and would allow for the space outside of work to do other things.

      Worked out good for me, IT career paid off. I don’t love my work, but now I don’t think I would have liked the creative work either, because it could have meant I ended up in some partially-related job (author vs buzzfeed article writer? painter vs creating company logos with difficult clients?) to make ends meet, getting paid a lot less for it.

      Over time I just lost interest in the creative work. I do a little here and there, but that’s it.

      My advice would be think about what you’d most likely end up doing to pay the bills if the dream didn’t pay off. Would you be okay with that work long term, dealing with job-related tasks and pains all year, every year, for the salary you would get?

      Always have a plan B!

    5. Reba*

      I think if you can do the PhD *******fully funded at a reasonable stipend, with fellowships or jobs that will be good experience for you******* and you can look at it as an opportunity to indulge your passion with some institutional support for a while, do that! Try to get an academic job, sure, but be ready to go back to what you’re doing now or get out of academia altogether.

      Give it a try but don’t count on it might the gist of my message?

      I know one person in my field who had just your profile, did the PhD and it worked out beautifully, they have a job they are very happy in (after the first job was a bust). I know many more people who are out of the field now.

      I’ve been able to take this stance with my own career in large part because I have a supportive and well-remunerated partner, and because I was able to secure university and external grants that underwrote my research. So if my job search for ac posts doesn’t pan out this year, I still have some cushion to search for other kinds of work. (I will defend in May.) It’s been an immense privilege to do the work that I’ve done and meet the people I’ve met. I’ve loved teaching. But I wouldn’t really recommend this track to others.

      I entered the PhD program with only a few years of varied work experience, though, which I regret. I have been mentally prepared for a long time now to leave this behind and get a regular-person job.

      Congratulations on getting your apps in and good luck with your decision(s)!

      1. Reba*

        Another thought — this is borrowed from the afterword of Lewis Hyde’s The Gift — one way of sorting out following your passion vs. paying your bills is to think of your “day job” as sheltering your art (in Hyde’s example, but in our case let’s just think of of pursuits we do out of love), protecting it from needing to be saleable, to be adapted to market demands. Doing that adaptation doesn’t necessarily diminish one’s work, but there is a sense of freedom in creative work when it doesn’t matter if it brings in a check.

    6. Wrench Turner*

      Yes. About 4 years ago I walked away from 20 years doing backstage theatre stuff because it was burning me out to work real hard making other people look good without a chance to design my own stuff. I was doing more the craft, less the art. For a long time it only paid minimum wage, if that, but demanded near 24/7 flexibility for everything. Now I Turn Wrenches but do my own art for me. I had to change. It was killing me.

    7. Overeducated*

      Two part answer.

      Yes – I turned down 2 jobs in the exciting practitioner part of my field, which had long been my “dream job,” and went into the more office based, managerial part instead. Offer #1 came soon after my partner had accepted a different offer in a different state, and offer #2 didn’t pay enough to make my family financially secure, while sounding very high pressure. My current line of work is way less inspiring, but I still work with smart people and do some interesting things, I have financial stability, and I feel like I have a future with possibilities. I am still a bit sad that the timing of offer #1 was so bad, I wish I were in that job instead, but I think I made the right decision when I got my second bite at the supposed-dream-job apple.

      Answer part two, though, is that I would not start a PhD program in the humanities to become a professor. It’s like playing the lottery, but with 5-10 years of your life as the cost of the ticket. I would only do it if you’re fully funded, you look at the PhD itself as a job that will enrich your life for the time you’re doing it, and you have a realistic post-PhD strategy that does NOT depend on becoming a professor. The placement statistics are SO bad. I have a PhD in another area and had 3 possible plan As – nonprofits, academia, and government basically – and I spent a lot of time in my PhD program getting experience in nonprofits and government rather than teaching more…let’s just say that served me VERY well.

    8. Overeducated*

      Two part answer.

      Yes – I turned down 2 jobs in the exciting practitioner part of my field, which had long been my “dream job,” and went into the more office based, managerial part instead. Offer #1 came soon after my partner had accepted a different offer in a different state, and offer #2 didn’t pay enough to make my family financially secure, while sounding very high pressure. My current line of work is way less inspiring, but I still work with smart people and do some interesting things, I have financial stability, and I feel like I have a future with possibilities. I am still a bit sad that the timing of offer #1 was so bad, I wish I were in that job instead, but I think I made the right decision when I got my second bite at the supposed-dream-job apple.

      Answer part two, though, is that I would not start a PhD program in the humanities to become a professor. It’s like playing the lottery, but with 5-10 years of your life as the cost of the ticket. I would only do it if you’re fully funded, you look at the PhD itself as a job that will enrich your life for the time you’re doing it, and you have a realistic post-PhD strategy that does NOT depend on becoming a professor. The placement statistics are SO bad. I have a PhD in another area and had 3 possible plan As – nonprofits, academia, and government basically – and I spent a lot of time in my PhD program getting experience in nonprofits and government rather than teaching more…let’s just say that served me VERY well.

      1. Reba*

        Yes on the lottery, well put Overeducated.

        This year there were four openings in my specialization. It is considered an amazing year in the field.

    9. CA Teacher*

      I thought about going into academia post-college, but realized that what I wanted to do was teach bright young people, not research. I have found my passion (and stability!!) teaching high achieving students at a top high school. Have you considered K-12?

  55. Beatrice*

    I’m in a critical project phase, working 12 hours days plus Saturdays, and I’m struggling to stay positive and motivated. I’m trying to practice good self-care, but it’s hard to find time and my household is kind of a disaster – takeout most nights, dog/kid/husband neglected and frazzled, things not picked up, etc. I bought a bunch of inexpensive pick-me-ups – just trying to surround myself with things that make me feel good. It’s been six weeks and most of the little things I bought are gone/used up/old hat now, I think I need another round. I really need a hug, this sucks.

    1. Snark*

      It does suck, but it sounds like your partner is maybe not picking up the slack as effectively as he could be, and that sounds like it’s making the load heavier.

    3. k.k*

      Agree with the others that it sounds like you’re husband might need to do more. Have you discussed this with him, laid it out like you have here? Often we assume people will see that we’re obviously stressed and need help, but if you don’t actually say the words it gets really easy for you to not be on the same page.

      1. Snark*

        Yep. And, like, speaking as a husband who cooks dinner every night, picks up the main living area three or four times a week, and handles a lot of household management stuff……I’m not real sympathetic to dudes who default to endless takeout, forgetting to walk the dog, and leaving messes around for the cleaning fairy when their wives are busy. Yeah, it’s not some guys’ default mode the way it is for me, but a grown-ass dude can step up and maintain a clean and tidy house, a kid and dog whose needs are met, and prepare a simple, technically unchallenging dinner at home.

        1. Beatrice*

          I didn’t expect this to turn into heavy criticism of my husband. He does do stuff around the house and definitely doesn’t treat me like the cleaning fairy, but he’s dealing with his own work stresses and some mental health/depression issues and his tolerance for clutter and chaos is higher than mine.

          1. Natalie*

            If neither of you can do it yourselves right now, your options are basically offload it to someone else for pay, or get over it not getting done. In times of great stress, there’s no way out but through.

            For outsourcing, takeout is perfectly fine, really. I guarantee you that your kid cares about your time and attention more than they care about precisely who cooked dinner. Can you outsource some dog help, either a dog walker, doggy daycare, or even a friend who would take Fido to the dog park with their dog? A tired dog is a happy dog. And as far as cleaning goes, some things might just need to remain unpicked up. Follow the UfYH method of doing a couple of short cleaning spurts on just the highest priority issues, and make peace with the rest.

            I think some of the reaction you’re getting is because you said your husband is also neglected, and I’ll admit my antenna went up a bit on that, too. I’m definitely looking through my own lens of a lot of experience with cishet male partners who expect to get most or all of their emotional support from their wives, so when their wives are under strain they can’t cope because they don’t have anyone else to talk to about their stress. Obviously I don’t know your husband’s situation, but if he doesn’t have his own Team Him to support him with his depression, he needs to get on that.

            1. Snark*

              And this is another good point. We finally got a cleaner to come twice a month and OH MY GOD it’s been so amazing.

              1. Natalie*

                And since you presumably don’t want to be researching cleaners with your spare free time, this would be an excellent way for your husband to support your mental health if he can’t/won’t pick up more.

              2. Aunt Vixen*

                Do I remember accurately that you’re in the DC area? Reminder to self to ask in the weekend thread what cleaning service you recommend; pending budget talks, I’m ready.

            2. DDJ*

              My husband just started couselling and the transformation to our relationship, already, has been pretty profound. We both have a lot of mental health issues, and while we can certainly support each other, neither of us can be the other’s sole support.

            3. Jessie*

              For outsourcing dog tasks – you could try Rover. It basically shows you people in your area available for walks, doggy daycare, etc. I’ve used it a bunch of times without incident! Depends how comfortable you are with giving strangers access to your house (if you go for walks). I liked doggy daycare – dropped her off, picked her up, she was tired for the rest of the night! Might be an option if you have a younger dog.. mine would start acting out if she didn’t get enough attention :)
              Good luck!

            4. Beatrice*

              Thank you all. I’m burned out and stressed and exhausted to the point that I’m struggling not to overreact to things. I have a ton of problems I didn’t mention here…I tried not to get into detail because honestly once I start I don’t stop, and I don’t find it helpful when I’m not in a position to do much about them at this time.

              I downloaded some music that I really like this morning, and I’m going to do some comfort item shopping tonight from my sofa. I arranged to have the house to myself for a few hours on Sunday (my only day off this week), and I’m going to think about taking the dog to the kennel/doggy daycare for a few days – he loves it there.

          2. Snark*

            It’s not intended as heavy criticism of your husband, but it sounds like coming home to chaos and clutter and takeout is not helping your mental health and happiness, is it? So I think it’s totally reasonable to ask him to help keep things cleaner, less chaotic, and less frazzled than he would personally find acceptable left to his own devices. My wife is more tolerant of clutter than I am, but she’s keeping stuff tidy lately because I’m dealing with some pretty heavy job-related stresses and anxieties.

            And sure, he’s got his own mental health issues, and negotiating how much to expect has to take that into account, but it can’t be a reason for you to work 12-hour days and then come home to chaos some part of your brain feels obligated to quell.

          3. Temperance*

            It was pretty mild criticism, FWIW, but I think it came down to your word choice about not having time for him along with cooking, cleaning, pet, kid, etc.

            We use a cleaning service bimonthly, so we do have a cleaning fairy. It’s good.

        2. Liane*

          If your kid is at least preschool age, they should also be able to pick up some minor bits of slack. A child old enough to carry their toys/books from room or storage place is old enough to carry them back, for example.

    4. Nita*

      I’m sorry!!! Sounds so hard. Is there an end date to this? If you have family nearby, I highly recommend having your husband take the kid to visit them some Sundays, so you can peacefully clean/read/lie around and stare at the ceiling. And all the pick-me-ups you need to get through it. And if it looks like there’s no end in sight, might be a good idea to use those Sundays to update your resume…

  56. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

    Guys, today my boss announced that she’s leaving for another job (start date is in a few months).

    Much of the obstacles/challenges I’ve encountered in my job were of her doing. I had to enforce and “sell” her poor decisions. It’s been really hard. And she knew that, and I think she tried to protect me from the consequences of her poor decisions as best she could.

    But now she’s leaving before the mess has been cleaned up. (I mean, she “got the job done” but in doing so, she pissed off a LOT of people and morale is down. They take it out on me.)

    I am just some weird mixture of feeling: (1) slightly sad to see her go (she was pleasant to work with in spite of her poor ability); (2) worried about whether the consequences are going to rain down upon me the moment she’s gone; and (3) angry that she didn’t do more (a LOT more) to resolve the situation if she knew she’d be actively looking for a new job. To the latter point, I’ve raised concerns with her and in retrospect realize that I may have been strung along to buy herself some time without actually addressing anything.

    Ugh. Advice? I had always planned on leaving this job at some point (next year–money woes), but I fear things getting worse. Do I set up a joint meeting with her and her boss about this? Her only/her boss only? Just start trying to get out now?

    This is NOT how I wanted to spend the day that Black Panther comes out. :/

    1. CM*

      Could this be an opportunity for you to fix all these messes? It seems like you’re worrying about all the chickens coming home to roost, but now could be your chance to say, “OK, I’m inheriting a huge mess, but we’re going to turn things around.”

      It sounds like you may be beyond that point and ready to chuck it all and start over somewhere else, in which case start trying to get out now. But otherwise, you could start making a plan, and then go to her boss and say, “Here are the things I want to change.”

      1. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

        Unfortunately, me changing things isn’t a likely solution for two reasons.

        First, I’m meant to play more of a supportive role for the person (her) actually responsible for making those kinds of decisions. She made the choices, I provided support for people who were supposed to execute them. But she mostly chose to hide behind me rather than be assertive. I was assertive in trying to get her what she wanted, but then her conflict-avoidant nature led her to undermine her own decisions (and, in turn, my efforts) when people complained to her. (This is an org where the loudest, most poorly-behaved people get their way.)

        Second, even if I was offered her job (in an alternate universe where I would actually accept it), it still wouldn’t work because of the deep organizational cliques/silo mentality. I would be leading X people, and X people only respond to other respected X people. I am a Y person, and they don’t respond to Y people. It has to be an X person. She was an X person who unfortunately did not seem to have the stomach for the managerial skill set the job required.

        Her boss seems reasonable, so I may consider what you’ve suggested. Thank you for your reply. (And now I want a gooey chocolate chip cookie!)

  57. MMM*

    This is somewhat related to a letter from earlier this week (“What if I can’t succeed in the world of work?”):

    That particular LW was concerned that they wouldn’t find a position that was enough of a skills match for them to be successful–my question is more will I ever find anything I enjoy doing enough to make a career of it? I think that there are plenty of things I could competently do, but nothing that I’m so interested in or passionate about that it wouldn’t feel eventually just feel like a chore (or the things I am interested in don’t really translate to jobs). Plenty of people in the comments on the original letter had stories about finding jobs that were good fits for their skills/abilities/work habits, but I’m interested to hear from people who truly love their jobs, for whatever reason it may be. Are you doing what you always thought you would be doing? If not, how did you find your way to where you are? Alternately, are there people who are doing what they always thought they would be doing that found it maybe isn’t living up to the dream?

    TL;DR: I was never the kid who knew what they wanted to be when they grew up (or the college kid who knew what they wanted to do after graduation), so how many people really truly love their jobs and how did you find that match?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I love my job. I don’t love my job everyday and there are parts I don’t like, but generally I adore and am passionate about what I do. I discovered it by accident when I started working in the field (librarianship). However, I think most people are not in love with their work.

      My sister, for example, is an excellent scientist. She is well paid, has flex hours and doesn’t hate what she does, but she’s not passionate about it. Most people I think aren’t. I think in reality the trick is to find a job that you enjoy and are fairly good at. If you demand “love” and “passion”, than I think you will be disappointed in the long term.

    2. Murphy*

      I have sort of a weird career trajectory. (Was in a PhD program, got a MS, kept going for a while, stagnated and quit, found that I wasn’t quite well prepared for jobs in the field I went to school for, got a job using some of my skills, got fired, worked in a low pay job in a completely different field for a while, looked for jobs on and off and then eventually got serious about finding a career.) I wasn’t sure exactly I was suited for, so I started looking for jobs using the keywords of skills that I had and that I was interested in using. It was fairly broad, so I went through a lot of job postings that were irrelevant/not a good fit. Eventually I came across some jobs in [my field] which is something I vaguely knew existed but didn’t know what it was called. I didn’t know a whole lot about it, but it seemed like a good fit for my skills and experience, and there were several organizations in the area where I could do it. Applied, interviewed, and I’ve been here for a few years.

      I don’t love it, but I like it. It meets my needs for a job. I’m someone who feels like I don’t need to love my job, because it’s not my life. It uses my skills, I think what I do is important, and I generally enjoy it. It’s not anything like what I thought I would be doing, partially because I didn’t know this field existed earlier in life, but when I got older and started to figure out what I liked doing, my job fits with that. When I was younger I thought I’d be doing something more artistic, but when I first went to school for something more artistic, it just didn’t click for me. So now that’s what I do in my spare time, when I can. Maybe a different artistic field would have clicked for me. I’m not sure. But I’m satisfied doing what I’m doing.

    3. Mouse Princess*

      I’m in the same space as you too. I was the kid who always did everything proficiently but passionlessly, and still am that adult. Sometimes I think maybe not everyone gets to have a dream. Other times I feel like maybe I’m just unimaginative or boring. It’s causing me a lot of anxiety and self-doubt to not only hate my job, but also feel like it’s what I deserve since I can’t think of anything better.

      Anyway, thank you for asking the question because I’m interested to hear the responses and I hope you know you are not alone in this problem.

      1. MMM*

        You pretty much summed up how I feel/how my life has gone so far, so yes it is reassuring to know I’m not completely alone, especially when everyone else seems to have it all figured out

    4. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

      I asked a related question downthread (though more from the angle of not having the /right/ degree and still moving into the field). And I was also curious about people getting (accidentally) into their current job.
      Anyway to answer your question I never knew what I wanted for a job, but always kinda followed my interests. I knew it’d be in sciences but then?? So I picked engineering because it’s still broad and then a certain engineering master that’d be interesting. And it was… but not for a job (most jobs in this field are for PhD’s and I knew that wasn’t me).
      Somehow I landed a job in software R&D, first the R (and it was indeed not really my thing) and then because of being in a small startup got into development. Note that I hated the only OOP class I had during my bachelor but yeah I really like coding and want to pursue it (for now, cause idk my future self).

      So yeah what helped me was getting into a small company where people wear a lot of different hats and where there is more freedom to move around. (note that this can be a risk, financial instability of startups is no joke and 1 of the major reasons I’m trying to get out)
      tldr: kinda lucked out?

    5. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      Oh this was so me… But I have found a job/career path that I truly love! I can tell you my story – maybe it will give you some hope/ideas.

      I had no specific career aspirations. I was a very good student, but had very authoritarian parents (so I never got the chance to figure out myself really – all there was was their demands and kneejerk rebellion) who emphasized just going to school and “getting a degree, any degree, doesn’t matter, you’ll be fine”. Picked a career based on a TV show – ok so it was the height of CSI and I decided I wanted to be a forensic scientist. This was a disaster, so I switched to a different major (think social sciences). Graduated without any internships or career ideas.

      Bounced around for a couple of years (it was the recession so times were tough) and I was pretty frustrated/bitter/confused. Fell into administrative assistant work because it the only type of work that I could find that I had any chance of being hired for and that paid enough for me to live on/provided benefits. Still pretty bitter and frustrated. I did NOT enjoy admin work at all, and I’m not even particularly good at it – though I’m decent enough to be a solid admin (I’ll just never be a rockstar admin). My only thought at this time was “well if I’m going to be an admin, I might as well go for the highest paying admin jobs that I can find” – which were in the finance industry.

      I was in a front desk/admin role at a smallish finance firm. It was supposed to be a stepping stone to something that paid better, but it ended up giving me exposure to every dept. That’s where I discovered my career path. It was Compliance. I wasn’t even aware that it was a thing. I NEVER thought that I’d want to be involved in the finance industry at all, let alone be truly enthusiastic and generally interested in an aspect of it. However everything just sort of clicked. It was something that I was truly interested in (taking laws, rules, regulations and figuring out what policies to put in place to ensure that the company follows them) and something that I was truly good at (creating operational process and procedure to back up those policies). It was an amazing feeling – and brought so much focus to my life.

      I wouldn’t say I’m passionate about this work, but I genuinely enjoy it, find it interesting, and it’s a good enough match to my skills that there’s room for growth. That’s enough for me.

      I feel incredibly lucky that I found this/fell into this, though there have definitely been some bumps/issues. It’s frustrating having been in the working world for 10 years, but finiding myself in a role that recent grads are in. I’m worried that I’ll always feel behind career-wise or not working at the level of my capabilities. Also, just because this is definitely the right career for me, it doesn’t mean that every compliance job is the right fit for me. That’s all a lot more manageable now that I have a focus and a direction.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is kind of how I discovered that I really love editing technical documents, but the path into that is just fraught with obstacles I can’t seem to get over. Namely paying for any kind of training, and/or finding a job where I can pick up some skills. All the admin jobs here are very low-skill and there is no path out of them except into accounting.

        1. Mouse Princess*

          I too have found glimmers of things I liked doing but would need to get certifications to do it professionally. Getting those means taking thousands of dollars worth of classes, getting an IT degree, or some combination of both. Becuase I’m so aimless I can’t commit to paying that kind of money for something yet, especially without a guarantee that I’d get to work in that field. Or that I would truly like it.

    6. Lurky McLurkerson*

      I love my job 80% of the time, I find it interesting and I am really behind our mission. The other 20% of the time is dealing with my bosses bad days, new direct reports with no work exp who don’t understand work culture, dealing with things out of my controls, etc. I absolutely had no clue I’d be doing this job or had ever even heard of it until my first year of grad school. Before that I’d only ever worked at a grocery store for 4 years. I needed to do a work experience for my grad program and my school had a list of places that worked with them to place students. I had taken an infectious disease lab course and thought it was pretty cool so I decided to contact one of the labs on the list of work placements. It turned out to be tremendously interesting as I had no previous knowledge of what this particular lab system did. I ended up volunteering after my work placement and 3 months later was hired as an entry level scientist, from their I moved up and am currently managing a lab. I was never ever ever the kind of person who wanted to deal with being in charge, but as I’ve moved up (8 years later) I feel comfortable that I know what I am doing and i love it! You really never know when you will come across the job that is meant for you.

    7. MMM*

      I’m so glad this got some discussion! It’s reassuring to hear that some people do just sort of stumble into their jobs (and gives me hope that I still might), and also that people can be perfectly happy with a job that is satisfying, even if it’s not necessarily always a dream/the dream

    8. periwinkle*

      I loved the job that I had until last week. I’m sure I will love my new role (internal transfer) even more. They have somewhat different skill sets (I’m strong in both sets) but share certain characteristics: highly analytical and data-dependent; lots of synthesis of ideas; lots of autonomous decision making; and lots of ambiguity and “we don’t know, you figure it out.”

      Being the analytical sort, I had sat down in the past to figure out just what I enjoyed most about every job and hobby I’d experienced. What did they have in common?

      Is this the only career field for me? Heck no, I could have enjoyed careers in other fields where I could have used my skills and strengths. There are plenty of roles in this field that I’d be bad at, or good enough but unhappy. The important bit is that I identified the characteristics of a well-fitting role, and was fortunate enough to wend my way into an appropriate field where jobs with those characteristics existed.

    9. valc2323*

      I love my job, and I got to it by accident, which is actually quite common for people in my field.

      In college, I never knew what I wanted to do, except for sure it wasn’t “more school”. I joked around with people who kept asking me the dreaded “what will you do when you graduate?” question in my junior year, and replied to many, “dunno. Maybe I’ll join the Peace Corps or something.”

      So I did. And based off a throwaway comment by a professor when we were talking about it – “I know you said you don’t want to be a doctor, but I bet you’d be a good fit in public health” – I chose public health as my program track in Peace Corps.

      More than 15 years and a graduate degree later – so much for no more school! – I’m doing stuff I love with people I enjoy working with. There’s always a new challenge coming at us and every day is a new adventure.

    10. ohroie*

      I work in an organisation that it’s very easy to be passionate about our work (children’s charity). We have more than our fair share of what I like to call “true believers” – people who ARE passionate about the work and are truly invested in the outcomes. But that’s not me, and never will be because I’m just not the kind of person who will ever be truly passionate about any job. Don’t get me wrong, I think our work is important, and I love my job, but it’s not just the work. It’s a combination of finding something where my skills are utilised, a great team culture and support from my boss.

    11. GMN*

      I don’t love my job all the time but I am deeply engaged in it. Really this is what loving your job means to me; caring about it so much that it wakes strong feelings, that being happiness, anger or sadness as applicable. The reason I’m deeply engaged is mostly because I decided to be. Realistically I’m going to spend at least a third of my time working – I’m not going to be someone who is just looking forward to go home. So I immerse myself in it, spend time with people from my industry in my free time, engage in professional societies, stay on top of industry news etc. I realise this goes against a lot of advice these days and may be considered bad work/life balance, but it’s what works for me. I don’t live to work, but I don’t work to live either, as work is a big part of life!

  58. What's with today, today?*

    What are your best stories of co-workers faking illness? I have two separate stories about the same former co-worker.

    Story One:
    The co-worker called in shortly after marrying a woman he’d just met, and said he’d be late to work as he was having stomach issues and was going to the doctor. About an hour later his new wife posted pics of them car shopping on social media. Our boss saw them but decided to let it go because the co-worker said he’d be in after lunch. Fast forward one hour, co-worker sends me (cause I’d have to cover his work) and boss a group text that says “Hey. I went to the doctor, and they decided to give me an emergency colonoscopy. I’m literally about to be wheeled back for it now. I won’t be in today or tomorrow.” Boss responded “Get to work NOW and google colonoscopy. They don’t work that way.”

    Second (and this one got him fired).
    The co-worker (now divorced) calls in on a Monday and tells everyone he is having heart problems and has gone to a nearby major city for tests. He says he’ll be out all week after having been admitted to a major medical center. Meanwhile, his truck comes and goes throughout the day from his home, which is on the main street in our very small town. He’s also spotted at the grocery store and his daughter’s softball practice. On the fourth day, after the boss is entirely sure co-worker is lying and not in the hospital, he texts co-worker multiple times to call him ASAP. Co-worker finally responds hours later, by sending an email to boss and all of the staff about his condition. He tells everyone he is sorry for not having responded to texts and calls, but he’s been hooked up to machines all day for heart tests. Proceeds to name the heart condition he’s been diagnosed with…describes it in detail…the medications he’ll need…that he’ll need to take days for treatments…the works (he googled this time). He was fired the next day.

    We still tell jokes about the emergency colonoscopy.

      1. zora*

        he went big, but at the same time was so bad at it!!! Lived in a small town and went to all these places where people would obviously see him?? So weird!

    3. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      At OldJob we got one that claimed having Norovirus for several months. Every two weeks he would email a doctor’s note to our manager, and thus getting his health leave extended. Eventually our Grandboss noticed his absence, googled him and, lo and behold, found out his Facebook profile full of selfies with his girlfriend at various places. The “sick” coworker was called to a meeting with boss, grandboss and HR… which we no-showed, again claiming to be ill. He was fired inmediately.
      Oh, and the Doctor turned out to be his mother, who is a pediatrician, and who signed the notes with his maiden’s name.

      2. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

        We don’t whether his mother was in it. He could’ve forged it, but that wasn’t HR concern.

    4. Bad Candidate*

      I had a coworker who would always get sick right before summer or right before a large project started. And sick enough to take FMLA, she’d be gone for months. It was always something related to her diabetes, and most of us didn’t know enough to question that. At first we didn’t realize what was going on, but by the third time it was obvious. During one of the later leaves she moved in next door to another coworker who saw her carrying boxes and furniture on moving day. So too sick to come in to your office job, but not too sick to do some heavy lifting. Sure. The last time she did this she was back for a day and “fell” while the rest of us were at lunch. She tried to claim that the company was overworking her and not letting her take her meal break causing her blood sugar to dip, which caused her to fall and injure herself. Except I personally went to her desk and asked if she was ready for lunch (we all went together usually) and she said she wasn’t hungry and didn’t want to go that day. She thought I’d lie for her. Nope! She was fired shortly thereafter.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      What about the converse, an actual issue that sounds extremely fake? I recently got a massage that somehow tweaked an existing issue and made it so that I couldn’t comfortably sit for a couple of hours. I never imagined myself having to write an email begging off a commitment because I got injured in a chair massage, but so it goes!

      I’m suddenly remembering that I also had to skip gym class in 6th grade because I was seriously injured in an art class accident. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        1. Jillociraptor*

          I find it kind of funny that I was injured in art class, but the event itself was just kind of a dumb accident, neither funny nor scary.

          My hand slipped while using an Exacto-knife to cut leather, slashed a big ol’ gash through my thumb, nurse recommended not elevating my heart rate until it had fully stopped bleeding, thus, could not do jump roping. It healed just fine, and my art project turned out pretty good, if I recall correctly!

    6. Starley*

      I used to hire a lot of people who were brand new to the workforce, so I’ve seen a lot of these. One of my favorites was a woman who had asked if she could take a vacation day the Tuesday after a long weekend. She’d only been with us a couple of weeks and several people were already scheduled to be off. Her position included reception duties and we needed coverage in the office, so I had to say no. Tuesday morning I came in and had a message saying that she had woken up feeling sick and would be staying home that day and possibly the following day as well. When she showed up on Thursday, I asked her to come see me in my office. I put the phone on speaker, and dialed into my voicemail. It opened with the automated voice…. “Message received on Friday, (whatever the date was the previous week), at 5:31 p.m. ‘Hey boss, this is Jane, I woke up feeling sick this morning so I’ll be out today and…'” She really did look sick after that. I had planned to fire her, but she beat me to it and quit on the spot.

      1. Lissa*

        Hahahahah! Oh man, that’s awesome. Part of me is a petty petty soul who loves stories of people getting caught in lies, and I have to restrain it most of the time because of the very reasonable take of “well, maybe they were telling the truth and you don’t want to look like a bad person.” So I will allow a small part of my soul to be gleeful at these entertaining stories.

      2. Espeon*

        What a rookie mistake! You assess the chances of being granted the day off (ie; do things like check the staff rota), then you either request the holiday OR plan to call-in sick. You can’t do both… unless your boss trusts you implicitly and wouldn’t believe you to lie about being sick (so it kinda has to be a one-off, or spaced like, years apart). Amateurs!

    7. nep*

      Story One — Instead of ‘Get to work NOW,’ I’d have said: ‘Good luck. After your colonoscopy come collect your things.’

    8. Cat Scratch Fever*

      We had a guy who was out for months, on and off. I think he actually did have serious health problems, but those weren’t the ones he emailed us with (it was an office where people tended to email all staff if they’d be out).

      My favorite was the time he emailed a long and convoluted story about how his cat had scratched him and had nicked an artery. I think it had also gotten infected.

      He was fired, but more for being incompetent.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I attended a day conference with my co-worker at which lunch was included. The next day they were off due to food poisoning.

        The following week, they gave their resignation. Now I know shellfish are a prime candidate for illness, but I still wonder.

  59. anon dad*

    Any suggestions for finding a professional role with flex hours? With young kids it would make things a lot easier on my family for one of us to work a 7-3 schedule, and my wife’s job doesn’t lend itself to that. It seems like there are a lot of people out there who work a schedule like that, but how would I go about finding out which roles/companies would allow it? I’m a project manager, so fairly flexible in the type of company I can work for.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve found its really only something you can ask about at the offer stage. Until than, they don’t know if they want you badly enough. Some places do put it in job ads though.

    2. CM*

      Glassdoor reviews sometimes have information like this, but mostly I think you’re stuck asking around and seeing if anybody in your network knows of jobs like this.

    3. LCL*

      Infrastructure/utility companies often have field workers that start that early, and support staff. But those jobs aren’t flex time, just an early schedule. Governments are allowed to offer comp time, so keep that in mind as you search. But comp time isn’t as great as it appears; if the job is so busy you are accruing comp, there may never be time to take the leave.

    4. LAI*

      Well, I can only speak for my own field but I work in higher ed and it is very normal here for people to have flexible schedules and/or telecommute options. It depends on the specific office and supervisor, of course, but in my experience, it’s more likely to be ok than not. I think it’s because we work with so many faculty who obviously make their own schedules, so it is hard to argue that staff have to be here exactly 8am-5pm, unless you’re in a public facing office with a customer service aspect.

    5. Lurky McLurkerson*

      ive worked with state government agencies in 3 different states and they are pretty good with flex schedules. the state i currently live in has the option to work 8-4:30 or 7-3:30

  60. AnotherLibrarian*

    There is a job at place I worked six years ago that I would like to apply for. The head of the hiring committee (this is an academic librarian job) was a colleague who I worked with fairly closely. Let’s call him Fergus. He’s also an expert in a specialized field of librarianship and research that involved a foreign language I do not speak.

    I have a student researcher who could really use the expertise of my old colleague. Normally, I would reach out to Fergus on behalf of the student and see if he had any advice on the student’s reference needs. However, I haven’t applied for the job yet and I haven’t spoken to Fergus in three or four years.

    As a librarian, I feel like I should help the student anyway I can and that logically means contacting someone I know whose far more skilled in this research area than me. However, I don’t know how to do that since I am also applying for a job at this location and I don’t want it to seem that I am “just” reaching out to Fergus because I want this job he’s in charge of hiring for.

    Do I write an email and not mention the job? Do I tell him I am applying for the position in the email where I ask for his help? Do I not ask for his help? What would you recommend.

    My instinct is to proceed as though I were not applying for the job and just reach out to help the student. However, I would feel weird not giving Fergus a heads up that I was applying.

    1. CM*

      I would email Fergus with an intro paragraph that says Hi, how are you, it’s been a while; then a second paragraph that says By the way, I saw you have this job listing and I’m planning to apply — it would be great to work with you again in the future; and then a third paragraph that says, But that’s not why I’m writing. I have a student who could use your guidance, etc.

  61. Temperance*

    Can anyone recommend women’s work shoes that are cute/not too matronly but still decently supportive?

    My go-to has been cheap Target flats for everyday and Nine West heels for nicer events, but I need to stop wearing the cheap Target flats, per my doctor. Thanks!

      1. Grits McGee*

        Seconding the Clarks recommendation- they make heels that are more comfortable that most of the flats I own!

      1. Temperance*

        I’m fortunate that I have some money to spend on this, but unfortunately, Danskos really aren’t my style. :(

      2. Red Reader*

        And they last for bloody ever. I have two pairs that I’ve had for more than eight years, and they’re still in great shape. (I wear the black ones more often, so they’re a little more worn than the brown ones, but still definitely wouldn’t pass for eight year old shoes.)

      3. Peggy*

        I find danskos comfy for my feet and back, but I’ve rolled my ankles so many times in them! Danger shoes.

    4. Enough*

      No recommendations for specific shoes but you might want to consider inserts to replace the insole of current or future shoes. the best ones would be one’s made especially for your foot.

    5. k.k*

      My jacked up feet and I are fans of Clarks. For a cheaper option, check out Payless. They have this line called “deflex Comfort”. It’s a full line with pumps, wedges, boots, sandles, and such that all have extra padding, arch support, etc. I’ve got a pair of wedges and boots from there, both cute and don’t hurt my feet.

    6. Uncivil Engineer*

      BareTraps makes a lot of their flats with memory foam inside. I got mine at DSW. They are pretty basic styles. Nothing super cute but not too matronly either.

    7. analytica*

      Cole Haan Grand sneaker/oxford hybrids are my love. Older versions are called Zerogrand, Lunargrand, and now Grand.OS – you can find them way cheaper on eBay and they run true to size.

    9. CG*

      Clark’s and Vionic are good. A couple of hiking shoe companies make flats (I have some Merrell flats that are not casual and are work-appropriate, but I’m not sure if they make those anymore) too…

    10. Definitely NOT A T-Rex*

      Whatever you get, just make sure that the support you get truly does also allow your foot to “sit flat” inside the shoe. My chiropractor told me that a lot of shoes–even some of the orthopedic ones–are shaped in such a way that people’s feet are becoming inverted over time (picture each of your feet leaning away from each other; not good!). Before you buy, sit your foot on the ground and then back in the shoe to make sure you’re getting the same footing.

    11. strawberries and raspberries*

      I got a pair of Franco Sarto loafers that (after a little breaking in) are actually super comfortable. Naturalizer tends to have nice-looking stuff too.

      1. Windchime*

        I used to wear the Franco Sarto loafers constantly until I developed an unrelated problem with my Achilles tendon. Highly recommended. Now I’m a Birkenstocks girl; they’re not pretty but they are so, so comfortable.

    12. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      When I worked as a bank teller, I found Naturalizers comfy for being on my feet all day. Not sure they are going to work for “not matronly” though.

    13. sugarplum*

      I have heel spurs, and my go-tos for work shoes (we tend toward the upper end of business casual) are Rockport and Vionic. Very supportive and outwardly no different from most other work-type flats & pumps.

    14. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t have any great recs for business-y shoes (like heels and wedges), but I have a fantastic pair of Cole Haan flats that I love. Got them on 6pm.com (Zappos’ outlet), and you can get a lot of CH styles on there for much less than in the stores, especially if you’re ok with last year’s styles! I have also had a lot of good luck with Dr. Scholl’s, though their styles are a touch more casual. I just ordered a cute pair of flats from them.

      1. Shoe Fancy*

        I just got flats from Rothys! They are super cute and supportive! Really great colors and styles.

    18. BetsCounts*

      Thirding for Clarks. Also consider Aerosoles. I know you said you didn’t like the Dansko style, but they have a **ton** of non-clog looking options also.

    19. Effie, who is pondering*

      I like Born (my flats have lasted over 6 years and I got them when I worked in retail) and Dr Scholl’s.

    21. DrWombat*

      Clarks and Naturalizers have always worked for me! Ariat has some paddock boots that look nice under slacks and are very comfy as well (as in, dancing for multiple hours comfortable)

      1. Kuododi*

        I also am a big fan of Clark’s shoes. Between the state of my feet and my back, I really need shoes that give heel stability and back support. I have mentioned before that DSW warehouse is an excellent resource for quality shoes at a good price. They are almost always running big number sales and their coupons are really worth using. Best wishes!!!

    22. Slartibartfast*

      Late to the party, but Alegria is the best I have found for being on my feet all day. Some of them do trend toward matronly, but they have lots of fun finishes to them.

  62. Greenacres26*

    Hello, all!

    I have a job interview this afternoon for what seemed like a pretty cool role.

    They have seven Glassdoor reviews with two being pretty bad and seven being really good.

    Also, they only have one woman on a staff of about 25. Do you have any advice on how to get further details?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Reach out to your network and see if anyone knows anyone who works there. The one woman in the staff of 25 feels… off to me. That would be a red flag.

      1. As Close As Breakfast*

        It could be off, but it could also not be. I’m a female engineer working at a large equipment manufacturing company or a comparable size. I’m currently 1 of 4 women working here, but there have been times where it has been only me or I’m 1 of 2. Mostly because we’ve had very few female employees out on the manufacturing floor. (Not because they can’t do most of the jobs, but we’ve just never gotten many if any female applicants.) So while it could totally be a red flag, it could also not be. I think the only way to figure it out, short of knowing someone that works there, is to try and get a feel when you interview.

  63. Rat Racer*

    Guys – I am having SUCH a hard time at work right now, and struggling to hold myself together. My performance review is on Monday morning, and I’ve been told I’ve been given “the highest marks” – but I don’t care at all because my boss just scooped my project out from under me to give to someone else. Not because she thinks I’m doing a bad job, but because she’s repatriated our department with employees from her old job, and is giving them all the plummest work. I poured blood, sweat and tears into this thing, and granted, I care way more about my job than I should, but it is devastating to have it snatched from me so publicly and without any acknowledgment that I raised this thing from a seed into a nationally funded program.

    Another VP is recruiting me for a role on his team, so an escape hatch could be on the horizon. But in some ways, this makes it worse, because if I think I’m leaving, it becomes soooo much harder to put up with my horrible boss and her cronies. I’m worried I’ll move into “F*ck it all!!!” mode way to soon, and could easily find myself flat on my ass with no job at all. God this sucks. I can’t believe how well things were going before this new boss came on board – it’s like I woke up one morning in April to a nightmare that just doesn’t end….

    Community: please send any advice to get through this and avoid the temptation to start launching grenades…

    1. Ella Ella Ella*

      This is a bummer, I’m sorry. I don’t have much advice but I often get assigned grunt work which other folks get the credit for, and the only way I’ve stayed not-crazy about it is knowing that ultimately that project that was so important to me got done and it helped kids / saved kittens / solved regional flooding.

      And also making an effort to relax and disconnect after work. I’ll draft nasty righteous emails in my mind on the thirty story ride down the elevator but once I leave the building I focus elsewhere. I’m not as productive now that I’m sticking to 40-45 hours a week, but it’s worth not getting burned out.

    2. Reba*

      Ugh, sorry that’s happened. It sounds like you could use a vacation, frankly. One of those that’s long enough to actually unplug mentally.

    3. theletter*

      I like to tell myself that no matter what happens to the projects I work on, I still get paid for it, and that’s what matters. Tell the lady you deserve a bonus, take the job with the VP and book yourself a nice vacation.

  64. Anon for This*

    How do you broach the subject of active-shooter drills and safety without looking like a weirdo?

    I worry that I’m being paranoid in light of recent news, but my office just moved to a new building with a very open plan and a highly visible location. We’ve also had a round of layoffs and while I have no concerns about those I know who were affected, there are plenty of other departments here who are total strangers. Plus we’re a bank so there could be disgruntled customers due to foreclosures, etc. You need card access to the building and we have a guard desk but, but, but….

    1. Snark*

      I don’t think it’s paranoid at all, and working in a secured facility that does regular drills for this sort of thing, I think it’d be weird if an employer were not conducting them.

    2. Emi.*

      If you’ve just moved into a new building, that’s the perfect time to inquire about new safety procedures of all kinds, so if you feel awkward about it you can roll it into “How have our safety protocols changed in response to the new space/layout? Are we going to have fire and active shooter drills to make sure everyone knows where to go?”

      But I also really doubt you’re the only person thinking about this, so it’s not going to sound weird and paranoid.

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I’m a survivor of a mass shooting. So, I’m biased, but if you look a little paranoid or like a weirdo….bring it up anyway.

      After having a full blown panic attack at my desk due to someone letting in a guy acting super cagey with a duffle bag my boss and I had a little chat. There are now measures in place and while we don’t have drills we have a plan. He wished I had brought it up sooner, but since it doesn’t come up in daily conversation it’s not super easy to do. Plus, you know, it’s not exactly an enjoyable topic.

      1. Snark*

        My wife has also survived a mass casualty event, and her garden of f*cks is as barren as a winter field when it it comes to bringing up security issues.

    4. Anon Accountant*

      Maybe “with recent tragedies I’d like to inquire if we have safety plans in place. I hope this would never happen here but it can happen anywhere. Have there been any plans to implement something similar”?

      Modify to fit your workplace though.

    5. Anon Accountant*

      It’s not paranoid at all and is a very real concern. My cousins school she teaches at has active shooter drills a few times a year and had safety experts advise them and give feedback.

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, at this point, I think it’s anything but paranoid. It’s a clear and present danger, if not necessarily likely at any given location, and you bet your ass it’s reasonable to want a contingency plan in place and rehearsed.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Sadly, I think these are necessary in this day and age and I don’t think you would look like a weirdo for bringing it up.

    7. CatCat*

      Just be matter of fact about it. I don’t think it’s a weird thing to bring up at all and you don’t need to downplay your concern as paranoia. Broach with your supervisor, “Given all the shootings that have been in the news, I want to know what should employees do in an active-shooter scenario. Can [employer] offer training or drills on this subject?”

    8. Anon for This*

      Thanks everyone. I’m sure it’s weighing on everyone’s mind.

      Obviously the move is a good reason to ask about safety protocols. Also, we’ve had earthquake and tornado drills so sadly this may just be a fact of life to prepare for.

      1. DDJ*

        So, I live in a place where tornadoes “never” happen. Until one did a couple years ago. It was little more than a funnel cloud really, but it happened. And within 6 months, my company had started tornado drills. There’s very little chance we’ll ever see one again, but if we do, we’re prepared.

        I feel like it’s the same thing with active shooter drills. We had one in one of our satellite offices recently, and there ended up being major changes (as in, changes to the building structure to ensure better security). I was once involved in a seminar and the gentleman presenting it stood at the front of the room with a large duffel at his feet.

        “So. I came in today as a person who has never been inside this building. I walked up to reception, I said I was giving a presentation, and they let me right in. I signed in, but was never asked for ID. And no one asked about my bag.”

        He opened it up and it was FULL of fake guns. Which means that real guns would have been just as easy to bring in, because we have no metal detectors. We have no security for our main reception. People just come and go. It was terrifying. He could have come in and shot up an entire floor in a matter of minutes.

        These drills are important.

        1. Anon for this question*

          Related to this, how do you handle active shooter drills when you already have gun-related PTSD? Just reading about the recent shooting on social media triggered me, and an actual drill would likely trigger me even if I had warning. At the same time, I don’t really feel like disclosing my PTSD or the incidents that precipitated it, given the fact that it was an incident that happened when I was a child that caused it. Any advice?

          1. DDJ*

            I’m so sorry about the PTSD, that must be very difficult.

            I think this might be the kind of thing you’d want to discuss with HR, if that’s an available option. You don’t have to share it widely, I don’t think you’d need to go into any details at all. But there’s not a lot that can be done if no one knows about it and there’s no way for you to plan, should they decide to run a drill. They may be able to work with the group organizing active shooter drills to make sure that you’re informed of the drills – that way, although the drill itself would no doubt be triggering for you, maybe you’d be able to either book the day off, or at the very least, you would know it was coming so that you could prepare yourself.

            “I suffer from PTSD related to a firearm incident. With what’s going on, I’m concerned that the company may decide to start running active shooter drills, to make sure that everyone is prepared in case of an emergency. And I absolutely understand why they might want to do this. I was wondering if there might be a way that I could be informed of the drills so that I could plan to be away on those days, or to at least ensure I’ve been able to prepare myself. Of course, I would keep that information confidential, to protect the integrity of the drill.”

            Other than letting someone know, I’m not sure how you’d really deal with the drills. If you’ve had counseling for this, maybe your therapist would have some techniques you could try? With what’s been happening, I would hope that this kind of question is something that any mental health professional would be preparing for.

    9. nep*

      Our senior program manager recently sent round an active shooter video to view; not once did I think she was being a weirdo or paranoid. Timing might be less-than-ideal, but it’s always important and I wouldn’t worry about how it’s viewed. Unfortunately, I think most people see such a thing as par for the course now. (I hate that this is the fact.)

  65. Just Another Techie*

    I submitted this as a question, but it’s a little time sensitive so hopefully it’s okay to ask here. I’m on mat leave, and in theory I am supposed to go back next Friday. I always expected, both before pregnancy and before baby was here, that I’d be chomping at the bit to go back to work. I’m in a heavily male dominated field that I worked really hard to get into. I’m good at my job and enjoy it as much as I’ve ever enjoyed any job, and I get a lot of satisfaction from Being An Engineer.

    Except I really don’t want to go back next week. I love being home with baby way more than I ever thought I would. In terms of work HR policy, I can take another 16 weeks unpaid with my job still protected for me. Financially, I can swing being unpaid for that time. I know my team will get along fine without me since we do a ton of cross training and people make lateral moves frequently. I just. . . feel really awkward. What do I say to my boss? How do I contact my boss? (I missed a mandatory password change while I was on leave so I can’t get into work email at all without an in-person visit to IT. I have my boss’s cell number, and I can email his work email from my personal email.) Should I feel as guilty as I do about taking the generous paid leave when, now that it’s over, I am not entirely sure when, or even if, I want to go back?

    1. Emi.*

      You should not feel even slightly guilty about making use of the leave and benefits offered to you by your employer. Women and especially mothers already get enough pressure to feel guilty. Don’t add this!

      Call your boss and say “I’ve decided I’m going to take the full 16 weeks of leave, so my return date will be ___.” Take your leave, and congratulations on your beautiful baby!

    2. NK*

      Just be straightforward and don’t feel guilty! It’s unpaid, and for all the reasons you mentioned, your team will be fine! Seriously, no guilt needed at all. Just call or email your boss, whatever you’re more comfortable with, and let him know you’ve decided you’re going to extend your leave. No explanations needed. Seriously, don’t sweat it. That time is there for you for a reason.

    3. Thlayli*

      Don’t feel guilty it’s perfectly normal and this is part of the reason they offer these benefits – because many people don’t want to go back straight away and it’s better to have them take some unpaid time off than quit.

      Your team can manage it, you can manage it. Go in, talk to your boss, sort it out. And drop in to IT while you are there and sort out the password thing.

    4. Nita*

      I’ve done this. I emailed my boss to ask when is a good time to call, and then asked for a longer leave by phone. I was very apologetic, but I knew my projects are in good hands. I also had the option of telecommuting, and was able to take back some projects before I was physically back in the office to take the burden off people who were filling in for me.

      The email thing is unfortunate, but just use your personal email for now. Also, call IT and let them know you need help with restoring your access… they may be able to do it remotely. If not, maybe you can set up a short visit to your office to deal with this, while someone watches your little one.

  66. Blue Anne*

    I know we’re not supposed to say “dream job”, but… I have a second interview coming up next week for a job that very well might turn out to be my dream job. It’s an admin/finance position at a local craft brewery that has been growing exponentially. I would be the second financial employee and could turn into the financial controller in a few years. I’m incredibly excited and nervous and have never wanted anything so much that I can remember. cross your fingers for me…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      OMG, that does sound pretty awesome! I’ve got a friend who is in IT at Bell’s, and last time I toured Dogfish Head I kept thinking “Man, this is a cool place! I might even take a pay cut to work here!” :D

    2. Katie Pie*

      THAT IS SO COOL! I submitted my resume for a position like this, but I think it was pretty late in the process, and the posting was taken down shortly after I applied, so I assumed they were already close to filling by the time I applied. Best of luck!

  67. shep*

    I’ve been low-key worried about my current position for the past several months–lots of executive shuffles due to retirements, restructuring management flow, etc. I’ve never been worried about the actual security of my position, but nervous that I would either become obsolete or seen as a hindrance rather than a help. (I admit I have a mild case of impostor syndrome that I’m working through.)

    But I’ve been given a lot of projects recently that are challenging, but pretty exciting. I’m teaching myself new programs, talking to new people in my office, and seizing the chance to show that I can create really quality content with these new projects.

    So, not a question this week; just excited about my job!

  68. SurpriseScarf*

    I have an internal second interview on Monday and two other internal jobs supposed to call me today! Yay!

    So I’m having trouble figuring out what to wear. I’m a lady, and at the first interview I work a black blazer, white collared shirt, and grey pinstripe skirt. I am also Pentecostal so I do not wear pants, and I wear skirts that cover the knee or are longer. I have floor length skirts/dresses but from what I’ve read in past posts, floor length isn’t perceived as interview appropriate. Suits rarely have skirts that are long enough. What do I do/where do I go this weekend to buy a skirt?

    1. Fabulous*

      Congrats on the interview! You might have better luck finding a dress that you can pair with a blazer. Mid-calf length skirts aren’t really “in-style” nowadays, but I have found dresses that length not too long ago. Try Macy’s or Sears.

    2. CheeryO*

      I still see longer skirts here and there. Do you have a mall nearby? I’d hit up a bunch of stores and ask the employees if they have any midi skirts – those are usually a bit longer than knee length.

    3. Karo*

      Unfortunately this won’t help for your Monday interview, but in case it helps in the future/anyone else is having a similar struggle: Modcloth has some interview-appropriate midi skirts.

      Good luck!!

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      If your skirt isn’t super-distinctive, you might be able to wear it again with a different shirt and blazer. Or, find a store that carries Tall sizes.

      1. zora*

        This, I would wear the same skirt with a different top/blazer.

        And search for “midi” skirts. They are kind of trendy right now, so I’ve seen lots of A-line and Pencil midi skirts around.

      2. Purplesaurus*

        Annoyingly, most place don’t typically carry women’s tall sizes in the physical store. You can find jeans, but that’s about it. Although I haven’t actually been in a clothing store in about 5 years due to nothing fits, so this has possibly changed. /tall people problems

    5. Temperance*

      The Marycrafts brand on Amazon actually has skirt suits that might fit your needs!

      Full disclosure, I was totally shopping for myself and then thought of your post when I saw one.

    6. HannahS*

      You can try Ann Taylor, which last I checked has “tall” sizes, so if you’re not tall, these should fall below the knee, although it’s pretty expensive. I agree with checking out Modcloth to see examples of calf-length skirts that can be worn with a collared shirt and blazer. Just make sure that the blazer and shirt fit neatly and don’t bag out anywhere, because otherwise it looks looks like an overwhelming amount of fabric.

    7. Effie, who is pondering*

      Nordstrom has midi length skirts! If you have a Nordstrom nearby, call and ask for Point of View (I think that’s their most “career-wear” department) (Or Encore if you’re plus-sized or Petite Focus if you’re petite) and the salesperson will be able to tell you over the phone if they have what you’re looking for in stock. You can then ask them to pull some stuff for you and it’ll be ready when you go in!

    8. SurpiseScarf*

      Thank you all for your suggestions! I ended up getting a soft yellow blouse from Ann Taylor and a blue/gray suit skirt from Banana Republic. Both items should go with the black blazer/hose/flats, but at least it shows I’m not averse to color. Next time I come into more clothing money around holiday sales, I’ll get a Ann Taylor black suit with tall skirt.

  69. Fabulous*

    I commented on last week’s weekend free-for-all that I had just found out I’m pregnant (woohoo!) but now it feels SO weird not to be shouting it from the rooftops! Totally understand that I need to wait (I’m only 6 weeks and I haven’t even seen the doctor yet; that’s next week) but HOW DO Y’ALL DO IT? How long have you gone before telling your coworkers you’re pregnant??

    Especially having trouble not mentioning it to a few of my friends at work since I usually talk to them every day about everything! The SO and I are planning on telling our parents at Easter once I’m past the first trimester, so I know I shouldn’t tell my office-mates & boss until AT LEAST then; but then again, I’ll probably start showing by then too! We don’t see our parents every day so I’ll obviously be able to hide that one easily, but how do you go about hiding the weight gain from coworkers who see you every day? I don’t typically wear baggy clothes and my normal pants already are getting tight and uncomfortable!

    2. Lynca*

      I had to disclose early to management because of the type of work we do. So when I confirmed- had to tell them because I couldn’t do certain work any longer.

      But I didn’t have much noticeable weight gain in the 1st trimester (I’m almost 6 months now and didn’t look really pregnant until 5 months) so no one noticed. But pretty much I didn’t tell until I was ready. No one said anything.

    3. Yorick*

      I think people who see you every day will be less likely to notice the weight gain. It’ll be gradual for them, whereas for some families they wouldn’t have seen each other between pre-pregnancy and Easter.

      1. Fabulous*

        Good call – I guess I just hadn’t expected that I’d have to start buying new pants already… The power of bloating I guess!

    4. Murphy*

      It is hard! We told parents/siblings right away. We didn’t tell anyone else until after first trimester. I was wearing maternity pants by then (I think) and some baggier shirts, but it wasn’t super obvious. It takes longer to show than you think! I didn’t really have a hard time hiding it at work, because I don’t really have any friends here, though when I finally told people I found out that some office gossip had noticed that I gained weight. No one said anything to me about it until I said I was pregnant. Some of my friends figured it out since I was feeling sick all the time though.

      1. Fabulous*

        Thankfully I haven’t felt sick yet (*knock on wood*) just have had some food aversions (that unfortunately I can’t predict until I start eating). I might have to go out and get some maternity pants soon though in preparation for the coming months; I had put on about 10 pounds through the holidays as it was, and with the bloating now, my jeans are already super uncomfortable.

        1. Murphy*

          Yeah, I remember needing new pants and bras fairly early on. Do what you need to do to feel comfortable! I had been dealing with uncomfortable bras for a while, but when I finally got maternity bras, I felt SO much better.

    5. Thlayli*

      Congratulations! I managed to hide it under baggy jumpers for about 6 months (I was waiting on confirmation I had a course I wanted to do). Once I got the course confirmed I announced.

    6. Sandy*

      I told my boss around week 7 simply because it was considered a higher risk pregnancy and I was having frequent appointments. I probably could have gotten by being vague about the reason for the appointments, but I felt comfortable with her knowing. I didn’t tell other coworkers until I was out of the first trimester. I started wearing more flowy shirts as I started to show, so people may have wondered but nobody was bold enough to ask.

    7. Peggy*

      I made the mistake of telling a few friends and coworkers at 7 weeks just out of sheer excitement, but somewhere between ultrasound 1 and ultrasound 2, we lost the heartbeat. (This happened 2 weeks ago and I’m still grieving.) It’s very hard to go back and tell people you’re no longer expecting. I wish you the happiest, healthiest pregnancy, but also wanted to tell a cautionary tale about breaking the news too early.

  70. jenniferthebillionth*

    I have been having so many nightmares about losing my job. My performance is not suffering and I love my job, so I’m not sure where all of this anxiety is coming from.

    Just wanted to share and maybe make it less stressful.

    2. Fish Microwaver*

      Are you tired or dealing with a lot of personal stress? If so, is taking a short break from work and the other issue possible? Another thing would be to arrange a check up with your doctor. Thyroid issues can manifest as unexplained anxiety. I hope you feel better soon.

      1. jenniferthebillionth*

        I have a vacation in a month, and by the end of that other stressors should (I hope) be gone. Good idea, I’ll revisit what’s going on once that period is over!

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      For years I used to have nightmares about my husband cheating on me, though I am positive that he never did. I don’t know why they started, or why they finally stopped several years ago. We’ve been together 28 years.

      1. jenniferthebillionth*

        I’m sorry you had those nightmares, but it’s good to hear from others that irrationality is just that: irrational.

      2. Nita*

        I used to have nightmares that my husband *ghosted* me. So bizarre and had absolutely no basis in reality. I think my subconscious was just traumatized by times when someone did ghost me, and I was left to wonder whether they’re not into me (fine, whatevs) or got hit by a car (actually happened once, felt pretty bad when I found out).

        The nightmares stopped with the one where I found out that he hadn’t ghosted me at all, he’d gotten into trouble that detained him, and I was being an idiot trying to move on without him, when I should have been rescuing him :)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Did you lose a job in the past or worry about losing a job you liked in the past?
      Sometimes Old Worries die hard. It could just be that you revisiting an old worry from what is now a comforting space.
      My husband had dreams of missing a college exam for decades after leaving college. Sometimes we just rehash old stuff.

      You could try a drink with electrolytes in it at or near the end of your day, see if adding some minerals help your mind to rest.

      Or you could just talk it out with a couple people. Mention it here and there. When we drag stuff out into the light of day we take away it’s power, even if we don’t know why the damn thing has power in the first place. I had a dream of walking through a factory building. The building was endless, I went from room to room. While nothing was scary in any of the rooms, it was unsettling that I could not ever get out of this building. Okay so clearly that dream could have dozens of different meanings. I did not have to find the meaning to make it stop, what I did was mention it to a few friends. They said not too much more than, “That’ weird.” Or, “Sounds tiring.” Then the dream just stopped.

      In real life, look at the things you are concerned about and see if you can take small steps to lower the level of each of your concerns. Sometimes a 5% reduction in concern level can offer a little relief.

  71. X-Wing*

    I don’t get more than 15 minutes at a time of uninterrupted work time and it’s showing in my productivity. I’m a manager to a few student workers and I also share a cubicle with a very chatty person who often shouts my name out for no reason, e.g. “I’m losing my mind, X-Wing!” when he’s working on something particularly challenging. Another co-worker likes to sit in my office and waste time, or my direct reports like to come in and catch up or will step into my shared office instead of using instant messenger like I’ve asked them to do. I’m a shy introvert and have a very, very hard time saying no or saying “Sorry, can’t chat right now! Got work to do!” and as a result my work is falling behind. Even if I turn around and ignore them they will still linger in my office or sit in my window sill and watch me work.

    What are some things I can say that won’t come off as rude and condescending? For my coworker sometimes I’ll just ignore him, or grunt in response because I know if I engage or respond he’ll go off on some off-topic tangent. He admits that he can talk to a brick wall and I’m the opposite so we’re not a great fit for the same office but can’t move. For my reports I’ve reminded them to use I.M. instead of walking in my office and interrupting. When they linger I’ve what they’re working on and given them assignments. It hasn’t resolved the issue. My other co-worker is tricky because he’s sensitive and often doesn’t get the hint. “Okay, well I have to get back to work now.” and he’ll stay in the office and play on his phone or try to talk about non-work stuff. To be clear, my supervisor knows it’s an issue and sometimes will come in and playfully tell co-worker to get back to work but never seems serious.

    2. Kathenus*

      Could you block out some times during the day, on your calendar and inform your coworkers/direct reports, for uninterrupted work? Maybe it’s the same period each day, so people can predict it, if that works with your position. This way you’re being proactive to schedule something you need to be more successful and productive, and informing those around you about it so they’re aware and can plan around that period. It’s not being reactive and asking people to stop doing something in the moment. For example 1-3 p.m. daily is your focused work time, where everyone knows to not bother you for anything routine.

    3. Thlayli*

      Earplugs/headphones and “sorry, were you talking to me?”

      I sit in an office with s guy who thinks aloud and cant multitask at all, and we both use the phone a lot too. we have a deal where we each say “excuse me can I ask you something” when we actually need to ask something, otherwise we just ignore each other totally

  72. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

    I am kinda stumped on an interview question I got recently: why did it take you so long to realize your passion for software/coding?
    I have a non CS engineering degree but I have been in algorithm development for 6 months and now 6 months in application development (same job/company) and I love it.

    Any thoughts how to answer this without seeming like a flaky person? It’s true I didn’t really know what to study at uni and I didn’t end up following my engineering degree. I really kinda rolled in it and lucked out (but that seems inappropriate to tell, because they might worry well what if she finds something new – and they will have to invest a lot of time and effort in me, like the interview guy said) I am almost 30 (sigh) btw.

    I’ll put some backstory in a comment, but I mostly wanna read other’s stories on finding your current career path!
    Thank you for any insight or advice.

    1. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

      Story: I graduated with an engineering master degree and only had 1 bachelor class with OOP (and I kinda hated it). Skip forward to my first job that I finally landed after searching more than a year and it’s in software R&D. I got hired for doing algorithm research (6 months) but ended up in application development for almost another 6 months – and I love it! I would stay at my current company if it wasn’t so dysfunctional and didn’t have financial problems (I am scared of being layed off being the most junior employee)

      I want to pursue this career path but I know that with a new job I’d be considered a starter (no CS bg). So I applied for a job posting with a good fit (kinda same niche field I got half a year experience in), got an interview and then this question. I was kinda taken aback, maybe because the way it was phrased. And truth is idk why or how I know that this is my passion. I just like it and wanna keep doing it, when I did the R part I didn’t like it. I am almost 30 and is it /that/ late to discover your passion? (I kinda answered with “better late than never” and some job aspects I enjoy) Are they trying to sniff out a job hopper?

      Also I know that this missing degree is a major drawback, as I found out hard way by disappointing my current manager’s expectations often. This isn’t an easy path but (to be cheesy) nothing worthwhile ever is.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Personally, I think that is an idiotic question. No one knows where they want to end up when they start out. The ones are in your field who do started coding when they were 12, which isn’t an opportunity everyone has (or even if you do, a lot of people are intimidated by it and don’t try it until they get some exposure later.)

      My personal story: I started out working for a traditional A/E/C firm as a mechanical engineer when I was 21. I hated it. I never changed industries, but I took a non-engineering role in project controls (cost/schedule) at a second company, then I went back to engineering, then I took a role on the business development team as a market analyst, and then I went back to an engineering team as a project manager. Next month, I’m opening a new office for my company.

      This probably doesn’t sound like a “stumble on your passion” story since I kept circling around the same type of work, but I went from hating it to actually having a passion for it. I really don’t have a passion for writing specs and design engineering, but I’m good at running teams and juggling multiple projects. You don’t get to do that type of work starting out, so it took me a while to get there and figure it out. During my career, I also got an MBA, took post-bacc pre-med classes, and engineering masters classes trying to make sense of what I really wanted to do.

      1. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

        Yeah not only do responsibilities grow with career progression, people change! I can honestly say I hated coding at uni and I never tried it again. I would have never guessed I’d go back to it, but here we are.

        I love how you made your own path and found your way in different steps. (Including the education to make sense of it, not being complacent) It is inspiring because honestly I am not my future self and it wouldn’t surprise me if I didn’t end up following the common career track.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          You are right with the fact that people change, and to add to that, your personal needs change. Some people want to step back from career tracks that work too many hours. Other people want to get out of slow tracks and into management. Of course, there are people in things like nursing and teaching who liked working with people but are too drained to keep doing it.

          Thanks for saying I’m inspiring. . .that’s too funny. My kids are going to hear that one tonight! They don’t like my school and career advice or stories.

    3. jenniferthebillionth*

      That’s such a weird question! I’ve been in web and software development for about three years, coming from an unrelated theater and literature background, and nobody has asked that of me! I think it’s perfectly normal to think you want one career path, then somehow stumble into another one that you never considered but that turns out to be a great fit. I know a lot of people who’ve found their “niche” that way. I’m not sure what they want to learn with that question, but it certainly rubs me the wrong way – as if there is only One True Path to software development. That just isn’t true.

      1. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

        Thanks for this! I feel the same way and my current employer as well (I mean yeah it’d be easier but not the only way). Interest and willingness to learn would be valuable I’d think, especially in software here. There is a great shortage of software engineers (our job posting had been open for more than 1.5 years). I thought that I maybe missed something (it was my first interview since starting the job search) but maybe they are just degree snobs. I think it’d be scary that you’d have to choose your whole career path at 18 by choosing your bachelor’s.

        From theater and literature, that’s so cool!

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Two part answer coming up.

      Part the First – How I’d answer that question:

      I’d turn it sideways. I’ve always liked making things, whether it’s software or something more tangible. And I’ve always liked logic puzzles. And the job of a software developer is to take a logic puzzle and make something that solves it. It just took until my first class in C# that I figured out the connection.

      Part the Second – How I ended up as a software developer:

      I learned the basic as a kid. You know those stories about how in the Eighties computers became a THING (for lack of a better term) that was specifically targeted at boys? Yeah, my dad wasn’t having any of that, and I wrote my first computer program when I was in the third grade. (It was a number guessing game.) I took computer programming in high school – not AP, we didn’t have the resources to teach it properly, but I took what I could get.

      But I never thought of it as a career at that point. I thought Computer Science/Engineering degrees were for people who were always trying to write a program for something even (and sometimes especially) for things it would be faster to do by hand. So I enrolled in Mechanical Engineering.

      Turns out, I’ve got no head for fluid dynamics and thermodynamics, which is about half the ME curriculum. (I was a solid B student at statics/dynamics/kinematics, which is the other half. And my favorite class of all was CAD/CAM (Computer Aided Design/Computer Aided Machining).) And I started taking some courses from the CompSci department with the thought of getting a minor. But for various reasons, I ended up running out of scholarship money before I could scrape up passing grades in the last few ME classes, or pivot into a full CS major. So I left with no degree.

      I floated around for a while, doing mostly admin work. Where I could, I picked up some side money fixing people’s computers and teaching nice older people how to use their new computers. Eventually, a friend got me a job working on a help desk for a local ISP with him. Our boss was awful, but my friend set out to teach me everything he knew. It was enough that when we both got laid off nine months later (the boss was awful in more ways than one, and money management was one of them), I had a new help desk job a month later.

      I lasted a little over eighteen months there. During that time, I decided that what I really wanted to be doing was systems administration. I’d done a little of it at the first help desk job, and did some very low level stuff at the second job (password resets and the like), and I knew I could absolutely do the sort of work they were doing. But I also knew without a degree I’d have a hard time getting past various gatekeepers.

      So, at nearly 30, I went back to school at a community college branch of my local university. I figured I’d get my AS, then apply for sysadmin jobs. One of my required classes for the degree was programming in C#. This wasn’t the first programming class I’d taken – but this was the first one where things really clicked with me. When the concepts of OOP finally clicked at the end of the quarter, I realized that doing this was even more fun than being in control of other people’s computers. So not only did I change my focus from systems administration to programming, I also failed to get the AS, transferred to the main campus of the university, and got my BS in Information Technology. (University also offers a Comp Sci degree, but the AS coursework at the branch college was designed to feed into the Information Technology program.)

      I also ended up working part time most of the time while I was in college the second time around. One of my professors introduced me to a local business owner who often hired students to work for him, and my incomplete ME degree ended up to be just the credential I needed to work on a project for one of his clients, who needed some mechanical controls software written. I learned I didn’t like working on drivers, but his client’s project was nevertheless seriously awesome. It was a good job for a student – flexible hours and my coworker (in the same Information Technology program as me) and I could work on our homework at the office. And when we graduated, our boss encouraged us to get out and job search, because we’d both done pretty much every type of project we could do for his company at this point.

      I still don’t write software in my spare time.

      1. What if you stumbled upon your passion by accident*

        This comment made me smile, there’s still hope for me!
        People giving you a chance to prove yourself and others helping you get there is just so invaluable.
        Going back to uni at 30 takes a lot of bravery. I’ve been going back and forth over this, how worthwhile a CS degree would be. Right now I feel learning on the job is worth a shot (I really couldn’t go through school again).

        The pointers about answering the question helped me to think about what really does attract me to coding and how I should work that out. Converting it to concrete points and examples.

        I LOVE that last line, this is SO me and makes me feel less guilty of not being interested in coding after hours. (I do a lot of self study on my own time right now to catch up, but after a while I’d really rather not)

        Thank you for sharing your story, it’s really motivating to read about how there’s not one right way to get to software development (or any field really – except maybe you know medicine…)

    5. Windchime*

      I didn’t get my first coding job till I was 39 years old, so I don’t know what to tell you! Yeah, I think it’s kind of a dumb question but maybe they were truly just curious. I fell into programming accidentally (as so many of us do), so that’s what took me so long to find my passion. And I never expected to be wild about SQL programming but that’s how it turned out!

    1. rldk*

      What I get out of this study is that interviewing is not a skill that can be just picked up at random – that interviewing well is a work skill that needs to be developed like any other. So students with no prior experience and no subject matter expertise in the interviewees’ fields won’t necessarily conduct a useful interview/=.

  74. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    Yesterday I learnt that schools fed their teachers. Is this done nationwide or depends by state? Where I live it’s impossible, there is hardly any money to properly maintain schools, let alone order food!

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I know my teacher friends do not get fed by their schools. I think they are all at public schools… One of them might be at a private school (they have school uniforms, which aren’t common around here); I don’t remember? But the rest are public school teachers for sure.

    2. bb-great*

      I don’t think it’s common that public schools in the US feed their teachers, except maybe once in a while as part of a special event. But in the US schools are funded by property taxes, so the relative levels of funding vary considerably between schools even in the same state.

    3. LAI*

      What? I know many teachers and none of them get fed at their schools. In fact, if they have a party, it’s probably a potluck and they have to bring their own food.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I think you’re referring to the letter with the teacher who pillaged the food table before others got a chance to eat? At my school at least, getting fed is a special occasion, usually like a Christmas lunch. We also get fed on parent teacher interview nights because teachers put in 14-hour days and getting fed makes it better. But I know at our school our admins pay for it out of their own pockets.

      We will also have potlucks, and everyone contributes to those.

      1. Julianne*

        Same. We get dinner provided on days we’re required to stay late, and also as an incentive on days when they need volunteers to pull off big events (school plays, sports tournaments, etc.). My school used to do food rewards for teacher attendance (no absences during the quarter = you get to partake in a catered lunch), but they’ve discontinued that in the past year. During teacher appreciation week and the last week before winter/summer breaks, there are smaller daily treats (coffee, cookies, etc.) that our administrators pay for/provide.

    5. ScienceTeacherHS*

      In my school (and my perception of other American public schools) this happens pretty rarely. Every few months either a business will donate to feed us on one day or admin/the district will get food or make breakfast for us as an appreciation kind of thing.

      We have potlucks WAY more often. At my school, we have one after every payday, plus our Christmas party is potluck.

    6. Parenthetically*

      Ah, no, it’s not a usual thing in any of my experience and I’ve taught in a few states. At my school it’s a monthly treat the PTO arranges as a thank you, or catering during an all-day training meeting or whatever. My mother taught in public school for 30 years and almost never had meals provided for her — MAYBE at a training provided by an external trainer?

    7. LilySparrow*

      At our US public school, our teachers can buy their lunch at a discount in the cafeteria, but it’s not free.
      The PTO organizes “teacher appreciation” breakfasts, lunches, or break time snacks about once a semester, and parents bring in the food.

  75. Australianon*

    Australian here. I don’t know how widespread the marital woes of one of our high ranking politicians are but aside from the personal aspect there are workplace implications that I would enjoy input on. I am at work so opportunity to contribute to the conversation is limited but I would like your ideas.
    The said politician is the deputy leader of the country and has strong conservative opinions, which are seemingly endored by those who voted for him. (The Australian voting system is very different from the USA.) The politician was married with a family and very suddenly it was revealed that he was living with a woman who is approximately 15 years younger and a former staffer. The woman is reported to have been single at the time the relationship started.
    There is some criticism of the way the politician arranged for her to gain similar employment with other members of his party. Her name and image has been widely distributed in the media and she has been subject to the usual “homewrecker” etc epithets on social media. The leader of the country has issued a “no sex between ministers and Staff” edict.
    We all know that common sense is uncommon but I quite feel for the woman who will probably never be able to work in her field again. Thoughts?

    2. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      My first thought was “what would AAM say?”. In an ideal world both their careers would be more than finished, but I’m afraid that one is going to suffer more than the other.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That’s the risk you take if you become knowingly involved with a married men you met through work.

    4. LCL*

      If he is actually living with the other woman, his wife knows and they have an arrangement. I wish the press would leave this stuff alone, or rather only investigate for coercion and predatory behavior and there’s no sign of that drop it. Of course the other woman will be trashed while he keeps his job.

  76. Cats and Dogs*

    The past several weeks at work have been crazy. So much so that this week I was unmotivated to do anything beyond the absolute essentials this week. I’m pretty sure, I’m going to get my a$$ handed to me next week, but I cannot find the willpower to care this week.

    1. As Close As Breakfast*

      I have actually been known to think “oh well, that’s next weeks As Close As Breakfast’s problem! Hehehe, sucks for her!” on a Friday. So, yeah…

  77. EddieSherbert*

    I finally gave up on the office kitchen. People are disgusting and have no accountability.

    I’m the person that was 90% of the time is running and emptying the dishwasher. But people don’t rinse anything off before putting it in the dishwasher, so half the “clean stuff” has food still caked on it. If I run it and don’t empty it right away, dishes pile up in the sink and around the sink until I empty it.

    So I finally said “eff that” a few weeks ago after policing people the past couple YEARS and brought in my own dishes for myself, and am hand-washing them and keeping them at my desk.

    Kitchen is slowly getting grosser and grosser, but my stress level and annoyed-with-my-coworkers level have gone down considerably!

    1. .*

      I feel you! Not at work but when I stayed at dorms *sigh* I had a new job and needed a temporary place quickly. And didn’t know if I’d like the city (I didn’t and ended up moving to a way bigger city close by).
      It still baffles me how quickly it got dirty… it was a nightmare. And I agree, you just have to give up, cause it never changes and it feels so futile.
      People are disgusting and I was never happier when I moved to my own place and kitchen.

    2. Fish Microwaver*

      Way to go EddieSherbert. Sometimes you just run out of damns to give and recognising that can be liberating.

    3. Starley*

      Ugh, I had to do the same after a few years of being the only person who ever did dishes, cleaned the fridge, emptied the coffee grounds at the end of the day… I just stopped using the kitchen completely except to use the water cooler, and bring coffee from home. Every once in a great while I’ll open the fridge just out of morbid curiosity. There’s a bottle of orange juice that has been there since at least last summer, and has about an inch of mold on the top of it. I think I heard whatever’s living in the mayonnaise jar demanding the right to vote last week.

  78. Asking about pay*

    Out of curiosity, how do you all go about finding out how much other people at your institution get paid? I see people mention that they know they’re paid more/less than any given coworker, or a coworker that held the role before them. I can’t imagine having the chutzpah to waltz up to a coworker and ask this!

    But at the same time, I’ve been curious for a long time whether I’m paid less than others in similar roles at my institution and am curious how one would broach this topic.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I don’t know how helpful it is at this point, but in my last couple of jobs, I have asked how my salary stacks up to others with the same title before accepting the job.

    4. NZ Muse*

      I have had some inkling based on:

      Job 2 & 3 – chats with coworkers who prememptively brought up pay and salaries

      Job 4 – our annual report which showed how many people earned salaries in certain pay brackets (for those over $100k – we were a small org that paid well so most people made more than that, and was quite easy to figure out roughly who fell in which brackets)

      Job 5 – poking around intranet and found a doc that listed all pay ranges for each job level (and when I started my boss gave me an intro to the team structure and which roles were at which levels on te scale)

  79. Argh!*

    It’s annual evaluation time where I work. I write them. I receive one.

    Stories? Thoughts? Good or bad experiences?

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had mine this week. It was very good, but I I’d get some funny feedback from one of my colleagues (we get feedback from 3-5 colleagues). I was specifically called out for not being antagonistic. Which is nice, but I didn’t know that was really a problem where I work. I just thought it was amusing.

      Also, my manager clearly doesn’t like talking about performance (he writes a very detailed review though). It’s basically 5 minutes of “good job, your colleagues like working with you, here’s you compensation package, got to go!”

    2. Anonymous Coward*

      I worked somewhere for years that had a quarterly self-review system, where you discussed your successes and challenges, and goals for the next quarter, and published them to the company’s internal site. Anyone could read your review (although it wasn’t required or even expected for anyone to read very many – 300 or 400 employees total). I learned so much about what my coworkers were up to! I think it gave us useful perspectives on the work of the company, but most people who hear about this are absolutely horrified.

      1. Argh!*

        My supervisor is big on comparing me (adversely) to “other people,” and I suspect she treats us all that way. If I am really being measured against nameless “other people,” I’d love to know what they’re doing that I’m not doing! I’m doing a lot of things that they don’t do, but not being rewarded for them. Either my manager is threatened by me and is a bully, or I’m doing the wrong things. I’d be happy to do whatever it would take to get a bigger raise, but she’s deliberately holding me back with vague “feedback.” This is why evaluation time is a bit nerve-wracking for me. I am trying hard to figure out the best response to what will (again) be a disappointing review, puny raise (if any), and watching my mediocre colleagues waltz away with merit bonuses.

        1. Earthwalker*

          Can you ask if you could be paired up with other people for mentoring, and what skills your boss would like you to focus on with them? If your boss hasn’t thought the matter through enough to answer, she may realize her error. (My boss once told me I needed to be more like a specific coworker. I mentioned that to the coworker when asking him for some tips. He said he didn’t know what she could possibly mean, since she had told him that he needed to be more like me.)

          1. Argh!*

            At the time, I did that. She seemed shocked that I wanted to know, and that I was willing to accept constructive criticism. I don’t know if she slams other people and just walks away patting herself on the back, but I’m a grown-up and if there’s a *legitimate* complaint, I can take it. One time she agreed to give me a copy of someone else’s work, and then when I followed up and asked where it was, she suddenly decided that mine was fine despite telling me earlier that it wasn’t good enough.

        2. only acting normal*

          Your supervisor sounds like a tool. If you think it will get you anywhere, ask for who *specifically* you should be emulating (maybe insert a little flattery by suggesting/implying you want to emulate her? But not to the point of threatening her job! Balancing act there.)

          At least the boss that did this to me *named* the people he was comparing me to, giving me the chance to point out they were at a more senior grade than I was (so how about a comparison to my peers instead please? Or a promotion to the senior grade!). Unfortunately it was still only when that boss moved on (and the asshat grandboss that boss was copying) that my reviews 1) got better, and 2) pertained to *me* in any way.

  80. Just my 2 cents*

    We got a new Marketing director a couple of months ago. The department put out the new style guide, and the Oxford Comma is back! I love the Oxford Comma, so I’m happy. (It was outlawed under our previous Marketing manager.)

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Whoo hoo! I also love the Oxford comma. If it was “outlawed”, I’d definitely get in trouble because it’s literally an automatic thing I do when writing. I don’t even think about it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m happy that you got a new marketing director, that the department put out a new style guide, and that the Oxford comma is back!

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        If they ever want to get rid of it, you might want to bring up the recent legal case in Maine where a missing Oxford comma cost a company $5M. The lack of the comma left a law ambiguous about its meaning, and the ambiguity meant that Oakhurst Dairy owed its employees millions.

    4. Clever Name*

      I love that this is a thing where you work. I recently updated my company’s style guide, and OMG, the battle over 2 spaces after a period going away. It was nuts.

  81. H*

    I’m sure this has been asked before, and I’ve read it here before, but as a refresh what techniques do you use to help you stay on task and not get distracted?

    I’ve been told once this week that I’m easily distracted and today by my manager that she notices I will get involved in anything else going on if I have to type minutes (it wasn’t as a criticism as such, more in a jokey way, but I don’t think I want it as an ongoing perception so am taking both comments as early warning!)

    My jobs for the last few years have meant that I am used to being interrupted frequently (on reception or in support roles) but I moved into a new position at the beginning of this year and now need to re-train myself to focus for longer periods; I used to be really good at it but bad habits have clearly crept in. I’ve started blocking out times in my calendar for focused tasks and am considering setting myself a timer so I know I need to focus for say 15 minutes and then will ‘reward’ myself with a short break but any other suggestions are very much appreciated.

    In the interest of focus I’m not going to be on AAM for the next few hours as I do have to finish the minutes now but I will check in again later.

    1. shep*

      I like the Pomodoro technique, which is essentially what you describe (it’s also highly Google-able for more information, and you can tweak it to how you like it). Here is a common variation, which I found doing a quick search:

      1. Choose a task to be accomplished.
      2. Set the Pomodoro to 25 minutes (the Pomodoro is the timer)
      3. Work on the task until the Pomodoro rings, then put a check on your sheet of paper
      4. Take a short break (5 minutes is OK)
      5. Every 4 Pomodoros take a longer break

      1. Reba*

        yep, this works for me! Often I find that once I get going, I can skip or put off the breaks. When I’m doing a task that music is compatible with, I’ll listen to an album and make that the “timer,” taking my break when I’ve played it through.

        In fact I probably need to get off here and start one now…

        1. H*

          Thanks both shep and Reba, I’ve looked up Pomodoro and it looks like it is along the lines I was thinking so it’s good to know it’s something people think work.

          I hadn’t thought about music, I think I’m so used to working where it’s not possible to have music on that I’d forgotten that is an option now!

    2. Thlayli*

      Listening to music without words helps me focus. I search for god is an astronaut on Spotify and it brings up a load of songs without words

    3. Starley*

      I struggle with this too. The worst for me is feeling the need to respond to any email or IMs as they come in. When I need to buckle down, I’ll set Skype to DND and just close Outlook. I set a timer on my phone for however long I think I need to get my task done, and then and stick my phone in my drawer. I put a post-it note on my monitor to hide the time and suck it up.

      1. H*

        It’s tough isn’t it? I have started using the DND on my phone more often now, unfortunately most people then just pop into see me, which rather defeats the purpose! Post-it over the clock is a good tip.

    4. Close Bracket*

      Thirding Pomodoro! I used to use the website marinaratimer because you would customize work and break times. At the time, 25 minutes was just not enough.

      Now I use the free version of an app called focus keeper, which does not allow you to customize the time periods (the paid version does). 25 min is fine for my current work, so I don’t miss the customizability.

      1. H*

        I like the look of the marinatimer site, although it looks like you might need sound to know when you’re done. I will check out focus keeper.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      What is it about typing minutes.
      I did it for a few groups I belonged to. For me minutes took anywhere from 2 to 3 hours. I am not sure how long yours take you, but can you break it into sections, halves or thirds or even quarters? I have to move around I can’t sit for long stretches, so I would get up and get water or run to the restroom, something like that.

      Can you build a template that you can reuse? Would that save you time or make the task less work?

      I had to take a look at my notes. I took handwritten notes that were too obscure for even me to follow along. I was inconsistent with my abbreviations and I would worry I missed something. I worked on these things to rope them in a little. The best time for me to write was asap after the meeting. The longer I waited the harder it was.

      I used a method where I got all my notes into sentences on the screen and then went back and cleaned it up. But this is something to experiment with, perhaps you need to do it a different way.

      Last thought. Is there a better time of day to do minutes? I like to get the PITA tasks done at the beginning of the day that way the task does not own my day, I own my day instead. However, I can see where someone might prefer end of the day because mornings are crazy.

      1. H*

        Thanks, I’m not sure what it is about the minutes, possibly that by the time I’ve prepared for the meeting, participated in it and then get to typing the minutes I’m fed up of the whole thing! However, like you say, if I wait too long after it I struggle to read my handwriting/remember the note I thought was obvious at the time.

        I might try getting them into sentences quickly just after the meeting and then do other tasks for a bit before going back to them. They do usually take me a couple of hours so doing that and maybe scheduling an hour first thing the next day might help…I will see what happens!

  82. Your Opinion Please*

    I’d like your advice – am I being petty or should I say something?

    I have a part-time employee who will come up to my desk (we share an office) and ask “Whatcha doin?” or “What are you working on?” when I’m clearly busy on my computer. It’s annoying and as the boss, I feel like I don’t need to share what I’m working on. What I’d like is to not be interrupted so I’ll respond with whatever program/report/etc. Because I find this annoying as all get out, I’d like your opinion, am I being overly sensitive or should I have a chat with her about how inappropriate it is to ask your boss what they are working on?

    1. Fabulous*

      Sounds to me like she might just trying to initiate a conversation, and isn’t necessarily interested in what you’re doing per se.

    2. shep*

      That would annoy me too, but (and maybe I’m in the minority here) to me it’s not so much about the fact that you’re her boss; it’s that that’s annoying behavior to begin with. The fact that you are her boss, though, may give you more latitude to say something, but I would absolutely make the focus about the behavior itself, versus “You can’t ask me this because I’m your boss.” (Although I’m sure you’d be a little more nuanced than that.

      For example, I don’t supervise others, but if someone were to interrupt me often like that, I would definitely feel the need to say something. I would also be annoyed if said person thought they could interrupt me because I’m *not* their boss.

      Personally, I would shut this down (with a peer) by saying something like, “A bunch of stuff! I have some huge deadlines this week and can’t chat.”

      But the latitude you have as a supervisor would, like I said, allow you to address the behavior as a whole. I’m sure they’re not trying to be insubordinate or rude, but it’s definitely annoying.

    3. .*

      Yes talk to her. I agree that it is not professional to disturb people at work when it’s not work related, especially not your boss! It’s fortunate you are in a position to have this discussion. (for people who are coworkers I’ll put a link to an AAM post in the next comment)

    4. Rezia*

      I don’t think you’re being petty. Your employee has no reason to need to know that information so not only is it a distraction, it’s a pointless one. Perhaps you could start with a pleasantly said, “Devin, you don’t need to know what I’m working on, so please stop asking me” and see if s/he gets the point, and if s/he doesn’t, have a proper chat. If s/he is otherwise not annoying, I suspect s/he is trying to be friendly and make conversation, not really realizing how it comes across.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d handle this as a two-stage escalation.

      Stage one: When she asks what you’re doing, you say, “On a bunch of deadlines — why, what’s up?” Make her explicitly say why she’s asking. If she openly says “Oh, just wondering,” then you look confused and say, “I’m pretty busy. Was there something you needed?” Hopefully this will highlight to her that what she’s doing is weird. If it continues after that, move to stage two.

      Stage two: “I’m available if you need me, but I’m usually focused on work and it’s distracting to have you check in about what I might be doing. You shouldn’t do that to others either. Is the issue that you’re running out of work?” (Say that last part genuinely, not in a snarky way.) If she IS running out of work and that’s not something you can fix, you can talk to her spending her downtime in ways that don’t disrupt others.

    6. Snark*

      I would address it in terms of “interrupting coworkers and me with idle, fairly pointless conversation-starters when we’re busy is not a thing,” and not mention the valid but abrasive “and I don’t need to share with you what I’m working on” thing.

    7. Your Opinion Please*

      Thanks all! She does great work but is very chatty. She’s so easily distracted and I think has a bit ADHD going on. I appreciate the responses, very helpful and I feel better about this issue.

      2. Snark*

        The thing is, if she’s easily distracted and chatty, and she can work around that and meet expectations anyway….well, good for her! But it’s not reasonable for her to get distracted and then go distract others.

  83. Anon the Contractor*

    I’m struggling at my job recently. I’m a gov’t contractor working in an admin position, and I’m increasingly less enchanted with my job as each week goes by. I’m trying to remind myself that it’s okay if my work isn’t inspiring for now because the pay is good and is enabling me to put a serious dent in my school loans, pay for a decent life, and my office is paying for me to take a class that is tangentially related to the limited data analysis we do but is really for me (the class starts next week and goes through the end of Spring on some weekday evenings).

    I just got my degree in Public Health, and I think I’m feeling a little bummed that I’m not doing something more squarely in my intended field. Anybody else feel like this? Any recommendations to how to get past it for now? I’ve been at my job for just over a year, and really should stay at least another 6 months (I don’t have any other short stints on my work history aside from internships though).

    1. shep*

      I have a master’s degree in writing, and while I think my degree gave me a leg up in the application process for my current position, I do very little by way of my actual degree. I’m a hybrid admin/content developer (although I haven’t done a lot of that until recently).

      I do like my job, but I often wonder if I’d be happier in a creative field. A few things keep me from making the leap: (1) It’s incredibly competitive in every related creative field, (2) my current position pays me pretty well, all things considered, so I too can put a nice dent in my student loans, etc., and (3) I like the overall environment here, and my benefits are pretty unbeatable.

      Here’s my thought: Why not apply to jobs you’re interested in now? It doesn’t have to be a super-rigorous search, but if you find something that aligns with what you’d like to be doing, it can’t hurt to apply. I know you want to stay at your current job longer, but (1) it could actually take that long to find something else, and (2) if you don’t get these positions, no harm done. And (3) if you do, congrats!

      1. Anon the Contractor*

        I did actually reactivate my LinkedIn premium recently, just to get a better feel of what’s out there. I think I will put out a few applications to things I’m really interested in, to see if anything happens. You’re right, what’s the worst that happens? Nothing? I get an offer that makes sense to take and my department has to fill the vacancy? They’ll live, and with the alternative so will I for now. Thanks :)

    1. Marie B.*

      Yes, they were so upset with how they were treated in the comments they won’t be updating, writing in again or reading any comments on this site going forward.

      1. Observer*

        Would it be appropriate to point them to people’s responses to the comment? Not to get them back, but just so they know that at least a substantial number of people DID sympathize with mess they were in and about the pile on.

  85. Madame X*

    This morning’s crop of letters had yet another example of a rejected candidate arguing with a hiring committee’s decision. Candidates that do this never seem to realize the irony that by arguing they are only confirming the hiring manager’s decision to not hire them.

    I’m curious though. Has this technique ever worked for anyone? Does anyone know of a candidate or employer that actually changed their mind about a rejected candidate after the candidate contacted them to challenge their decision? I can’t imagine that this could ever work in the job-seeker’s favor and although I’ve never been in a hiring position, it would annoy the crap out of me if I was on the receiving end of it.

    1. shep*

      I knew someone in college who wrote a letter of complaint to an airline re: a recent flight he took, made a suggestion as to how it could be fixed, and received an internship offer in reply.

      Which is totally not the same thing, but the closest complaint-to-offer I’ve ever seen. I don’t think an actual rebuttal of the hiring committee’s decision would do an ounce of favor to the complainant.

      1. Madame X*

        Now that’s impressive! I could see if someone wrote a very professional letter about a system issue that should be improved with some proposed solutions might generate a positive response from a company. I can’t imagine that an indignant note would have generated the same response. They must have very impressed by your acquaintance to offer an internship.

    2. NacSacJack*

      I once got my job back through the union when I was fired for not telling the workers to knock off the horseplay in the back room. I tried, they ignored me, it wasn’t my job to supervise them. I hated that job, but didnt want to be fired for no reason. When the union contacted them, they told the rep they had been trying to get hold of me(no they hadn’t we had an answering machine by then).

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Kind of. But not after being interviewed.

      I was surprised to be rejected after applying for a job where I had some very very niche experience they wanted. I called to ask if they could give me any feedback, mentioning that I was surprised as I had xyz experience so would appreciate knowing what the issue was.

      The issue was my desired salary. I said I would have been happy to negotiate but as there was no salary listed and the system wouldn’t let me skip that box, I had to put something in.

      They ended up offering me an interview for a more senior job, which would have involved line managing someone in a parallel role to the one I applied for. I made it to second interview and then basically withdrew from consideration (by telling them I didn’t think I wanted the position during the interview) as I hated everyone I had met and was terrified they would offer me the job and I would chicken out of turning it down!

      Fun fact: I got to second interview for another job there some time after, just missed out, and then the guy who would’ve been my boss was fired and named in a six-figure settlement for some very bad stuff.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          My old copy of Great Answers to Tough Interview Questions has a whole chapter on how to persuade an employer who has rejected you to reconsider.

          I followed their advice once and it didn’t work.

    4. Tomato Soup*

      I’m kind of surprised people send these return mails. I never sent them and I still get passed over lol.

  86. EMW*

    Is there a good way to tell you manager that you want a job with less travel cause you’re starting a family in several years? He wants to know where I want to be in the next five years, whether it’s at this company or not, so he can help me make a development plan to get there. He’s a great manager.

    I’m in a role that involves 60-90% travel. I love it. I’m learning so much. But in two years I’m going start trying to be pregnant. If for some reason we struggle, I don’t want to miss out an any opportunities because I expressed a desire to move into a role that would be more work from home. And for the next two years it’s full steam ahead with my husbands support to travel and do as much as I can before I can’t travel.

    There’s really only one person on our team that is in this role that is mostly wfh – I also don’t want to take her job, but she has been struggling, and it is known that she hasn’t exactly played her political cards right (she filed an ethical complaint against my boss’s boss at the request of her now fired boss).

    So what do I tell him? I’m leaning towards being truthful with him because I don’t think he will hold it against me.

    1. bb-great*

      It seems like you have a good rapport and he’s committed to helping you develop, so the risk of being honest with him is probably pretty low. But the timing between when the company has a wfh opportunity available, when you start trying, and when you actually get pregnant could very well not line up. So I think you have to prepare to make a tough decision there, unless there is the possibility your company will agree to convert you to wfh whenever you ask for it.

    2. Argh!*

      You’re putting the cart before the horse. Why should a manager make a current change based on your desire for something different in two years?

      1. EMW*

        Because he’s asked me where I want be for my next step. He doesn’t want me to stay in my current role for much more than a year because he knows there’s something better suited for me.

        1. Argh!*

          Then it isn’t necessary to mention family plans. You can cross that bridge when you come to it, and he might not even be your supervisor by then.

    3. J.B.*

      It’s pretty normal to cut back on travel after a few years. It gets old as you get older. I would leave kids out of the discussion and ask about how long people normally do the travel, and if you decide you want to step back with a few months notice could that be accommodated.

    4. HigherEdPerson*

      Yeah, 2-ish years is WAY ahead. I wouldn’t say anything right now. It’s kind of strange, IMO, no matter your rapport, to say something like “well, in a few years I’m going to try and get pregnant, so I won’t be traveling as much…”
      There’s a LOT that can happen in 2 years! You might find a new job, your partner might, you might get sick of this job, etc etc.

    5. Girlwithapearl*

      Please read Lean In. The book has its (significant) problems but what you’re talking about is addressed – you are thinking about leaning out literally years before you even try to get pregnant. Men don’t do this and it can be detrimental to you regardless of what family planning decisions you make later.

      1. EMW*

        Yes this was my concern… thank you. My husband started the conversation with “assuming we have bio kids, and you carry them, you physically can’t travel at a certain point”. Which just yes. But I can deal with it then. Unless this wfh job opens up and I get really sick of travel!

        1. Girlwithapearl*

          Good luck. You sound like a good planner and strong employee and I am sure things will work out well!

  87. Vesperia*

    Last week, my manger told me she was giving me total autonomy on our biggest client/project (which I’ve been assisting her with since I started) and she was stepping back from it for a variety of reasons. This week, I was told that the CEO wants other people to get experience on this client so I’m being taken off it… I’m super frustrated by it because my coworker didn’t want to be put on this client and I was finally getting the hang of the project too. I understand things change, but it feels like both my coworker and I just had the rug pulled out from both of us. My manager asked if I was okay with it, but when it’s presented as a done deal, and as a direct order from the CEO…

    Things like this are why I’m looking for a new position only 5 months in.

  88. BeepBoopBeep*

    Hi! I have read a lot of Alison’s articles about “tattling” and how it doesn’t exist in the workplace…. That being said, I’m wondering if in my situation alerting the boss is even worth the effort. I share an office with someone, who is part-time. They pick their hours. They have chosen to work from 12-5 M-F. I approve their time cards, but I am not technically their boss- HOWEVER, the CEO and founders are never in the office, and being the most senior employee, a lot of “authoritative” responsibilities have fallen into my lap. We are a small company with usually no more than 4 people working in the office at a time. We have a lot of “issues” in general that I have to bring to the attention of the CEO already(whether or not we have already begun work on a solution), and sometimes I feel like thats all I do.

    I got off topic- back to the co-worker. As I said, they pick their hours- and even though the calendar (which they have access to change at their leisure), says 12, they roll in at 12:15, 12:30- consistently. Then they go around the corner and get lunch. I feel like if you are rolling in at noon, you have plenty of time to eat before you arrive at your part-time job? Then they will play on their phone, and the other day they didn’t turn on their computer until 1:30pm!! Then when I looked at their screen, they were shopping for boots. Of course, their time card says they started at 12pm.

    I am planning on finding a new position elsewhere, but is it in my interest to even mention something? The office is so small already that any tension is intensely magnified. Also, they are horrible at taking criticism to boot- so I’m nervous to mention something directly as well.

    What do you guys think?

    2. Emi.*

      I would not bring up that they’re shopping for boots because it looks too much like you’re spying on them, but I don’t see a problem with asking your boss how s/he wants you to handle timecards when people are late.

      1. BeepBoopBeep*

        Right, this is the impression that I didn’t want- that there is a spy for the CEO in the office. It is impacting our work because we haven’t been able to get ahead on our calendar. Is it weird if I ask the CEO to leave me out of it and say they got the information a different way?

        1. Emi.*

          I think you can ask the CEO to be discreet if say you’re concerned about Coworker being upset with you and you want to preserve a good working relationship–especially if you can say that Coworker has taken criticism personally in the past or something, so it doesn’t just sound like “I’m worried they won’t like me, wah.”

          But is it likely that the CEO will direct you to call Coworker on it yourself? If they do, you should get very clear on what authority you do and don’t have, and what you should do if this person doesn’t respond to you properly.

      2. Anony*

        I think clarifying the policy is the way to go. Ask how to deal with people arriving late/leaving early and also if they get paid during lunch breaks or have to clock out and how long that break can last (or don’t get one since it is part time).

    3. SoCalHR*

      Leave out the boot-specific details. But I would say, if you sign off on the timecards then you have the ‘right’ to speak up about the usage of company times. Someone working 12-5 (probably) wouldn’t be entitled to a lunch break, so that’s first concern in addition to the general misuse of company time.

      Question though, is this person connected with the CEO or any higher ups? Sometimes people who get gigs like that are, so you may want to tread lightly before fully calling the person out.

      1. BeepBoopBeep*

        @ Emi
        I think if I did mention it to the CEO, they would want to take care of the issue themselves (they have done this in the past). I definitely will not ask them to lie, totally. But yes, this person has a history of taking criticism personally and in general an argumentative nature (there have been multiple posts about this same situation- when they try to argue for why they did it when you just need it done a different way, and ALISON i am so grateful for those posts they have helped me immensely)

        @ SocalHR
        No, they were an external hire. None of us knew the employee when we hired them. We essentially hired them part time because we are such a small company, and can’t afford someone full-time yet.
        Maybe I will mention the time card thing- technically i’m “too busy” to notice things like this, (like really i am, way too much going on to check on people’s work during the day) but ever since the CEO mentioned they were disappointed with how slow progress is being made, I began to take notice.

        1. Liane*

          “I approve their time cards”
          “Maybe I will mention the time card thing- technically i’m ‘too busy’ to notice things like this”

          If approving time cards is part of your job, then noticing and flagging something that is very wrong with said time cards is part of your job. No, it won’t be fun, & I am sorry, but you need to bring it up. What if CEO notices the time card problem, and decides you either weren’t doing that part of your job well, or were covering up for the time-stealer.

    4. Kathenus*

      As others mentioned, don’t worry about details like the boots. Ask your boss to confirm some policies about time cards, since you’re responsible for authorizing them. Ask specific questions like 1) how do I handle a time card if someone arrives late but their card shows them starting on time?, 2) what are the policies on lunch/break time for people who work a partial day shift? If you are approving time cards it’s important you know these things anyway because you are assuming responsibility for their accuracy once you sign them. So take the individual situations out of the mix and learn the details of the policy, then apply them to this person and anyone else whose cards you approve. Then if they push back you have the backing of your boss that this is how you are supposed to handle these situations.

      1. BeepBoopBeep*

        I think i will address this via the time card question, as Emi, SocalHR and Kathenus have mentioned….

        Another question I have is that there are laws about employers changing time cards. You can’t change time cards without their permission and you can’t change time cards to be less than hours worked. Obviously I will bring this up with CEO when I speak with them, but wanted your take on the law. Clearly, if they came in late that is a definitive “you weren’t here so you won’t be paid”, and if they took a lunch break and they aren’t paid, then that is also clear. but how would you deal with “hanging out not doing jack and then getting started 45 minutes later”.

        1. LCL*

          Are you in the US? Because you can’t change the data on a time card, where people punch in. But if they use a sheet instead, you can certainly change the time entered to the actual start time. What you can’t do is alter time sheets in an attempt to avoid overtime or punish them. I change people’s time sheets frequently, usually to add some small OT that they forgot.

          Hanging around and not doing jack is a management issue, not a time card issue. Someone will have to tell her to get to work. Her boss can clarify that she is to clock out if she leaves the premises.

        2. misspiggy*

          You could say it’s possible that more direct management supervision of people’s work could result in a faster pace of stuff getting done.

  89. Overeducated*

    So excited to say I finally got the offer I’ve been waiting for so long!!!

    Goodbye cross-country moves, grant-funded term jobs, and buying my own health insurance. It sure took long enough! (Now just crossing my fingers and hoping nothing goes horribly wrong before my start date in a month.)

  90. Amber Rose*

    It’s been so dead all week. I’ve honestly been pretending to work and just kinda grooving to my music a lot of the time.

    Since I have nothing really interesting to ask about this week, what kinds of music does everyone prefer to listen to while working? Turns out my coworker beside me likes chill electronic/synth beats, the one beside him likes current mainstream pop and country, and I prefer more fast paced, bass thumping, sing along in my head/dance in my chair kind of music. They actually help me focus more than slower music, which puts me in a daze.

    I know the science says you can’t concentrate while music is blaring in your ears, but that seems to only apply to me while I’m driving.

    1. Curious Cat*

      I’m more of a folk/indie/mountain music person or a chill EDM person. Depends on my mood! When I really really need to concentrate I listen to instrumental move soundtracks.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If I need to concentrate on coding or reading something dense, I’ll usually listen to upbeat (faster tempo) classical music, like much of Beethoven or Mozart. If I am just doing some kind of routine check/scan or reading something for background, I’ll listen to what I like — EDM, old-school rap, or maybe some big band/swing if I’m feeling it.

    3. Thlayli*

      I concentrate better with music – mainly music with no words, or music I know so well it doesn’t make me think (like the Beatles for example). If I have no music I get distracted thinking about stuff.

    4. Argh!*

      I can’t listen to anything with words when I’m typing or reading. I have a few youtube videos of jazz and instrumentals for when I really need music to block out other distractions.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I went through a weeks-long phase where I only listened to 70s music. “Dad” music. Like, Fleetwood Mac, Crosby Stills & Nash, The Eagles… Set my Pandora and let it ride. It was all oddly soothing. I have a private office, so I could sing along at certain points. Most people who know me would be shocked to hear this, as generally I prefer R&B, especially from the ’90s, and early hip-hop. Some days, I listen to Babyface’s entire catalog. Some days I decide it’s all about New Jack Swing. And I also listen to a lot of classical music. I prefer late-19th and early-to-mid 20th century composers, like Mahler, Vaughan Williams, Faure, etc. Sometimes Dvorak. My tastes tend to run all over the place, but I guess it just makes me a well-rounded person…?

      1. Amber Rose*

        I go through music phases also. I generally prefer rock but I went through a 90’s dance music phase for a couple weeks.

        I wish I could sing but I work in a cube not an office. =P

    7. JeanB in NC*

      I listen to Pandora set on shuffle all day. I have about 15 different stations in the shuffle so I get a little bit of everything. Having said that, Pandora is pulling some eclectic music in today!

    9. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Usually pop/dance music. I need it to be a little bit complex (so more than just someone singing over a guitar), too.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Instrumental music. I’m a huge soundtrack nerd and have tons of albums on my phone and computer. Plus, I belong to a website that plays them all day long, so when I’m at home I can stream. I cannot do anything that requires concentration if I’m playing vocal music, like writing or editing. Mostly because I like to sing along and I can’t walk and chew gum at the same time!

      Some of the best music I found for editing is very ambient stuff–a big favorite is Mark Morgan’s Vault Archives album of the soundtracks for the first two Fallout games. It’s downloadable for free, btw. Classical music also works. I have a Chopin compilation that is perfect for concentrating. I also like to make playlists for particular stories I’m working on, or choose specific albums that contribute to the mood I want to be in while writing.

    11. Alcott*

      Sometimes instrumentals, sometimes movie scores, sometimes pop/rock. 90s hip hop is my ”get sh*t done” music though.

    12. DrWombat*

      I vary it up a bit – from showtunes to different rock bands, to Eurovision playlists. I did the 30 hrs awake sprint on my dissertation with the version of Eric Idle in the Mikado on repeat because the variation in song pacing helped me keep focused. But the half that I have published was written almost entirely to Eurovision playlists. I can’t do pure instrumentals though – I have to have lyrics to be able to focus, oddly enough.

  91. Red Reader*

    So, this has been a ridiculous week. Work-wise, I’ve had ongoing issues I needed to address with my team, and ongoing issues with my work computer that our help desk can’t fix until I bring the machine onsite. I couldn’t bring the machine onsite, because on Monday on my way home from school I got rear-ended, while at a complete stop, by a kid who was playing on his phone and going 45mph, which shoved me into the back end of the pickup in front of me, completely totaling my car (and god bless Honda, there’s no way I should’ve walked away from that squash with just some bumps and bruises, though I have an appointment here shortly to verify that my ribs aren’t cracked). And I also had to have my furnace replaced this week.

    But in the middle of all that crap, I got an email yesterday from one of my division’s directors, cc’ed to my grandboss, telling me that there’s a manager in our sister division who’s leaving for an external position and they’re in a hurry to replace her so they can maximize transition time, and they’d really like to encourage me to apply for the position because they think my experience and background would be a great fit. Sweet, I think, I will update my resume after my workday is done and submit my application tonight! Two hours later, another email: “Have you applied yet???” Seems positive, at least :) (I did give my resume and whatnot a quick once-over and submit it right away when I got the second email.)

    (I also have a new furnace and a new car, so it’s really been a roller-coaster of a week. I’d like a nice non-eventful weekend, please.)

  92. Rezia*

    I got a new job! I’m really excited for the opportunity, which I think will help me grow in new ways.

    However, I will have to move from California to New York City for the job, and I was wondering if you all had 1) any general advice on moving (e.g. things to keep in mind when using professional movers? the last time I moved states I literally had 6 boxes, now I have furniture and a ton of books) and 2) advice on cross-country flying with a cat? We’re planning on bringing him on the plane, but he hates being cooped up and I can totally see him sad meowing for 6 hours, which makes me cringe on behalf of my fellow passengers. I’m also not sure how we’d get him from JFK to our apartment, wherever it is. Do NYC taxis allow pets?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Oh, I’ve done the cross-country move several times.

      One time, my spouse and I drove cross-country with our stuff and cat. Another time, we sold/gave away most of our stuff and then bought things when we arrived. Yet another time, we used a moving company to move all of our stuff.

      I will say that you end up spending about the same amount of money no matter what you do. Hopefully your workplace will compensate some of the moving costs. But, yeah, we thought the selling/giving away would make it easier. We just ended up having to buy a whole bunch of stuff when we arrived. And the moving we thought would be good, because we’d just have all of our old stuff, but the moving company underestimated how long it would take to ship our stuff, so we were living without our stuff for an extra week (didn’t want to buy too much replacement stuff, because our stuff would arrive eventually). Even though the moving company compensated us a bit for the lost time, it will still annoying and still expensive.

      We’ve flown cross-country with cats twice. We honestly just brought our cats on the plane and withstood the constant meowing (which you can barely hear above the noise of the airplane) and death stares. We did not give them any kind of sedative, because we were worried about potentially harming them if we gave them too much. They got over it. 10 hours of confusion and noise. Then they’re in a quiet place they can explore.

      1. Rezia*

        Our move will be compensated, so we’re planning to keep most of our things. Thanks for sharing your experience though! I had wondered about the cost difference.
        My cat is loud. But I agree with you on not wanting to sedate him, so I guess I will just let everyone enjoy his meoweeowweeeoweeowwww! Did you have to take your cats out of their carriers at security?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, it was quite annoying. The first time we did it, we had one cat, and they wanted us to take him out of the cat carrier right there in line, and it was all I could do to try to hold him while not having him dig his claws into my back or shoulder. The second time, we had two cats and we asked if we could have them examined in a private room, so the TSA took us to some storage closet and took the cats out of their carriers. The cats were still freaked out, but in an enclosed space (with less noise) they felt better about it. They didn’t scan the cats—just the carriers.

          Also, I forget what airline we were flying, but they didn’t allow us to sit next to each other with two pets, so we had to book two aisle seats across the aisle from one another. They did yowl for a bit, but then calmed down later. The one I had in front of me just gave me the death stare for six hours straight.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Don’t know about taxi cabs, but it’s up to a Lyft driver (I’m assuming the same would be true for Uber?) whether or not to take your personal pet.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Absolutely have a “open me first box” of necessities. Cleaning supplies (paper towels, cleaners, etc.), tools to assemble things, bed sheets, towels, Things You Need to function that first night, paper plates/plastic cutlery for eating, etc. Use different colored tape to seal it, mark it obnoxiously, something. That’s my one tip off the top of my head. I’m not a cat person, but I’ve heard about Feliway? That’s what the shelter I volunteer at uses, so it’s all I got.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, that reminds me—one big regret we had about moving was not labeling our boxes! So I would definitely put numbers on them and keep a little spreadsheet for yourself, so you know which boxes have the critical things you want to unpack first, if you don’t have one “open me first box” but multiple of those…

    5. KR*

      As for the movers, make sure you take pictures of all your furniture and date it so that if they take a chunk out of your furniture you have proof it was them. Label boxes that have fragile or sentimental things that are super important to you and tell the movers while they’re taking the boxes away which boxes you care a lot about. I didn’t put a lot of my fragile items in cardboard boxes but went with sturdy plastic tubs that I taped up. For the cat, talk to your vet about a relaxant or maybe a little Benadryl. Your kitty will need a super small dose. Also make sure the blanket in her carrier smells like you and her (maybe sleep with it for a week or two before the trip), have lots of treats, and look into Felliway.
      Also, if you can wrestle her into a kitty harness that may be best so if she gets out you can easily grab her or clip a leash on her if you need to hold her outside the carrier.
      .good luck and congrats.

    6. bb-great*

      Make sure to get multiple estimates for movers, as they can vary a lot. I got two and I think it was almost a 25% difference between them. If your new work is reimbursing you they will probably have guidelines and procedures and whatnot to follow. The movers will probably supply you with a list of things NOT to pack. Also, the moving trucks aren’t temp controlled. RIP the candle I packed for an August move to the Southwest.

    7. Tessera Member 042*

      Following this post because my husband and I will be moving from the DC area to Denver this summer, and we’re trying to decide whether to fly the cat or drive him (which would be about 3 days of hopefully-not-constant meowing in the car). It’ll also be the first time we’re using professional movers, and unfortunately we’ll have to cover all the costs ourselves.

    8. Reba*

      Have done similar moves with almost every possible arrangement (driving self in stuffed car, driving large rental truck, Pod thing). My first tip is to make sure your renter’s insurance or whatever you have will cover your items when they are in transit/in the truck!

      Put books in seriously small boxes. Even the “book box” from Uhaul is on the large side for heavy art books, of which I have lots.

      Finally, get decent boxes (Uhaul), even used Uhaul boxes that are often available from the shop.

      Since you’re likely to be getting a smaller home in NYC, consider downsizing furniture. If you have a chance to fly out and find an apartment beforehand, you’ll be able to make better decisions about what will fit.

      1. Lilith*

        I want to second Reba on the furniture, especially if you’re moving into a walk-up building. Stairs tend to be narrow, so a queen-sized bed and full-length couch may not fit around the corners. You may also need to arrange/buy things in order to get the most efficient use of space–for example, if you’ll have minimal closet space you may want to switch to wall shelves/door hooks as much as possible and cut down on what’s in the closet to things that absolutely need to be hung up. Same goes for counter space in kitchen and bathrooms, I don’t think I’ve ever had more than a square foot or two of counter available for actual cooking.

        1. Reba*

          Ha, yes, consider that it is a viable business in NYC to cut up sofas and put them back together again.

    9. mreasy*

      For the sake of your cat, please sedate it. They will be miserable on the plane. Your vet will give you a mild sedative, and your cat will be sleepy, but not passed out. It’s not dangerous, and will help them avoid major stress – as well as helping you avoid an angry cat on a cross-country flight. (I did the same one years ago w my cats.)

  93. ThatGirl*

    I just have to post out of sheer amusement.

    My work experience is in editorial, creative, marketing, that kind of thing. My current job (as of about 7 months) is at a company that makes bakeware and some food products, but I am in the general digital/customer service realm.

    I still get some recruiter emails sometimes as residue from my last-summer job search, which is fine, mostly I delete them. I got one yesterday that was just mind-boggling as to the match, though. It was for a Food Scientist/R&D position which I am in absolutely no way qualified for. My only guess is that the word “marketing” appeared on both my resume and their job listing.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve shared this before, but I routinely get emails from recruiters offering me exorbitant bonuses to relocate and get a job in a highly skilled, advanced degree medical field. I used to work at a university doing admin for students who were enrolled in that program, but I am not remotely qualified for anything medical.

      1. ThatGirl*

        At least there’s a tiny little overlap there? But it still says to me “they didn’t actually read my resume” :)

    2. The New Wanderer*

      You know, if the position is with a large Swiss company starting with N, I got the same recommended job. I’m guessing because “Research” was my relevant keyword. Cue daydreams of being the chief chocolate taster…

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Indeed put a job post for a repossession agent on my Recommended list the other day. I had no clue why–nothing in the post aligned with anything I thought I’d clicked on before. Until I remembered I had applied to a job at a dealership through the site. No, the repo job wasn’t with the same company either.

      Annoyingly, Indeed is now forcing you to sign up with them to apply to jobs through the board. Previously, you didn’t have to–you could click apply and just do it. I did opt out on putting any other info other than my email, since they still have the option of uploading a resume on my own. Prepare for spam, sigh.

  94. Wendy Darling*

    I am losing a battle with myself re: unfairly (?) judging a coworker.

    When he was hired, his introduction emails mentioned his two vacation homes in Very Posh Vacation Places and also bragged about his golf score. This is very not usual for intro emails. I was put off.

    Then he uploaded his user picture and he honestly looks like the Scumbag Steve meme except he’s wearing a polo with a popped collar.

    Then I had a meeting with him and he used a metric ton of business jargon and also kept using big words in slightly incorrect ways.

    The thing is he’s actually not unpleasant to work with so far, he’s just completely wrapped himself in the trappings of someone totally loathsome so I sort of assume he’s loathsome even though he hasn’t DONE anything loathsome unless you count telling everyone how much he likes spending time in his two vacation homes in incredibly expensive places. So I dunno! And we’re in different cities so I’ll never meet him, he just happens to be the lead on one of my projects. I keep trying not to judge him and epic failing.

    1. Emi.*

      Ohhhh that’s so annoying. Can you accept that you’re judging him and decide to ignore it, like the CBT thing where you say “Oh, I’m feeling anxious, I’m going to do the thing anyway”? I do think “judgement” is more an emotion than an act of the will here.

      Also, is he young enough that he might just grow out of it? If you can regard him as charmingly naive (aw, poor boy, so sheltered by his parents’ money that he has no idea how the working world works) that might help too.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Yeah basically the best I seem able to do is go “Well for some inexplicable reason this guy seems to want to walk around all day in an asshole costume but he hasn’t done anything to me so I’m gonna be professional and helpful when needed and then be glad he doesn’t sit next to me.”

        At a guess I’d say he’s in his mid-30s and he’s married with kids so I think the statute of limitations on charmingly naive is up, but there is circumstantial evidence that his family may be Old Money so it’s definitely possible that he’s just terminally out of touch. In which case he’s probably working for the wrong company because like 2/3 of my team are people who WANTED to go into teaching or social sciences research but had to give it up and get tangentially related industry jobs to make rent/feed their kids. Any Poor Little Rich Boy antics are gonna get some serious side-eye.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        I think Emi’s advice is really solid here. You don’t have to like him. You just have to work with him politely.

    2. Future Analyst*

      Eh. If he walks like a duck…
      As long as you remain professional, you think what you’d like internally. :)

      1. Wendy Darling*

        One of the great things about working from home is no one sees me roll my eyes at his user photo in Outlook except my dog.

        I wonder if I can just change it to a picture of a grapefruit or something. Not having to see that popped collar would go a long way for me. I have a Chrome plugin that changes all photos of a politician I particularly like into photos of kittens…

    3. Laura*

      I’m having the same issue. We have a new co-worker who doesn’t follow-through, shows no interest in understanding our current projects, and was made a freaking Director even after everyone said he was incompetent. I have a lot of rage about the entire situation.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Make yourself focus on his work, how is the work, is it on time and so on.
      Tell yourself that if you dwell on his many annoying qualities you are setting YOU up to fail. At some point these stories switch, and it becomes more about us keeping ourselves out of jail. Don’t start down this road, if you can stop yourself.
      Perhaps you can delegate some communication to other people, so you are not getting the full brunt of it.

      As another poster said, we don’t have to like them. You could just decide that you are going to build a working relationship with him and that is the highest you can expect with this cohort.

      When it comes to the braggy stuff, have your go-to’s lined up.
      “Oh, Interesting. Hey, how is X project coming along.”
      OR
      “Huh. That’s nice.”
      OR
      “Sorry can’t add to much to the conversation, I don’t play golf and I don’t know too much about it.”

      My personal fav when people start bragging, “Oh. I have heard of that place. I guess it’s nice?” or “Well, I don’t know too much about Xs, but I think that brand might be okay?” Say it with sincerity of course.

  95. Lillian Gilbreth*

    As an entry level employee in a consulting firm, should I know my billing rate? I was on a conference call with a VP and a client last week and the client asked, and I didn’t know (I knew it had changed as of January 1st when I got a raise, but not what it had gone to.) No one has ever formally talked to me about it, but did it look bad that I didn’t know?

    The VP found it for the client pretty quickly, I’m just curious.

    1. CheeryO*

      Nah, I think it’s normal to not know, or to just know the ballpark. It really isn’t your job to handle that side of things, at least in my experience, so I don’t think it’s weird that you didn’t know.

    2. Thlayli*

      It can be different on different projects anyway. We had different billing rates depending on all sorts of things – flat rate verses time and expenses, different profit margins depending on how much we needed / wanted the work, size of project, role on project etc.

  96. WG*

    My current employer is going through restructuring and while I think my job isn’t in jeopardy, I’ve been doing some job hunting to keep my options open. At an interview this week, the interviewer noted they hope to make a decision next week and will be in touch with all applicants then. While I know the process may actually take longer, I was hoping for some advice just in case.

    I really don’t want to leave my current job – great benefits, good pay, good work. But there are some current issues and potential changes coming that might drive me out anyway. But I won’t know the full extent of the potential changes for at least a few more weeks.

    So, if I do happen to get a job offer in the meantime, does anyone had advice for how to evaluate the offer against my current job? I’m concerned I might make a snap decision to take something new and shiny to avoid some of the current issues at my job that may wind up being short-term issues. Suggestions on the best criteria to consider to not prematurely leave a good job?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I was in this situation this last year. For me, it was helpful to:
      (1) Create my criteria of what would entice me into a new position, and then assess whether the new position met those criteria (in my case: step up in responsibility/title; good pay/benefits; and stable system or colleagues who were helping me drive the work forward. New job met #1+#2, but not #3.)
      (2) Have a conversation with my boss about what the work at my current place would look like in the upcoming year (I felt okay telling my boss that I was being courted by the new job and wanted a better sense of where things were going, and she was able to give me solid information that allowed me to see that things would remain static in my role at current job for at least 12 months. So I knew I had time to keep looking.) That really depends on your relationship with your boss, though.
      (3) Be honest with myself about the ways in which I was feeling anxiety so that I could slow down my thinking and reflect from a non-anxious place (This is something I always struggle with, but I was lucky in this case that the new job was moving slowly so I didn’t feel pressure to give them a quick answer. But if you did get an offer next week, you could likely ask for a week to consider, giving you time to get more of a sense of what your current job is doing, right?)

  97. DorothyP*

    How do I get people to give me answers with out being annoying? Or do I just need to be annoying? This week in particular, I’ve had 3 cases of people who just ignore my requests or inquiries (these are all intra-office, not external). I hate using the urgent marker in emails, especially because it isn’t widely used at my office. Many of my questions/follow-ups are based on customer service and making them wait is never ideal (I’m talking days or weeks, not hours or minutes). It is some of the same repeat offenders who it feels like dismiss my emails because I’m a few steps below them on the totem pole. I try to keep my emails brief and to the point (bullets whenever possible) and I send short follow-ups and requests for a timeline on the answer if I don’t hear back after 1-2 business days but it seems to get me nowhere until I elevate it and then we magically get a response. My manager still wants me to be point on things (it’s my role to manage them, not hers) but I don’t know how else to get replies aside from elevate. In many ways my office is not hierarchical in how people interact but it does seem that these individuals think that way.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish there were a magic formula. I’ve found some people just ignore emails, even though they are the least intrusive form of office communication (when compared to phone calls or in-person drop-ins… maybe not when compared to Slack, I guess). People tend to respond to my emails, but I’ve found that there are some people you just have to see in person to get them to answer you.

    2. clow*

      Yeah, the only way i seem to get anything out of some people is to include my manager on emails, which he tells me is perfectly fine. Some people are just…idk what, annoying about replying to emails, even though…you know..its part of their job.

    3. Thlayli*

      Pick up the phone and only email if you can’t get through to them, and call them again and leave a message if you don’t hear back in a couple of days.

    4. Wheezy Weasel*

      My wife created her own rules that escalate after 1 business day in the following order:
      – She will ask you once via email
      – She will ask you once via phone.
      – She will email your boss and copy you
      – She will call your boss directly.

      It’s been quite effective but she has to have the support of her boss in case of any blowback. I’d say 90% of her role is chasing down these action items, so it might not translate to other people’s jobs.

    5. Fiddlesticks*

      This is kind of sad, but similar to the escalation Wheezy Weasel suggested, I have a progression of office grievance the that builds to what I basically think of as my nuclear option.

      1. Send first request.
      2. If no response, go into my sent folder and forward initial request with new query message appended at the top to the guilty party.
      3. Call, and either catch the on the phone or leave a voice mail.
      4. If still no response, either to a promised action in the call, or by ignoring the voice mail, go back into the sent folder, find the first forward, and forward it again, with another appended note at the top that articulates that I’m following up after our conversation/after I called and left you a message.
      5. Still no joy? Forward that entire chain to their manager, with a new note at the top and with the guilty party copied in, saying, so sorry to bother, I assume Guilty Party is snowed with work as I’ve been having trouble connecting with them — can you help me instead?

      Nobody I’ve ever had to pull the No. 5 trigger on has ever ignored my emails again.

  98. clow*

    I am getting to the point in my career where the next step up, which according to my manager is a very real possibility, would involve leading other people. It wouldnt be management or anything, more team lead and a big point of contact. While I am a point of contact currently within the scope of the work that I do, my lead is a point of contact for my small team and new work must go through my manager and then be delegated by my lead. My lead will be moving to a new team soon (im super happy for him) but it then makes me the most senior person on the team. I am wondering, how do people deal with “moving up” when they don’t really know if they want to? I am very quiet and introverted, and much more of a “I just wanna do my job in peace and develop my skills” type person and the idea of having to talk to a bunch of other people daily and juggle other people’s tasks does not sound appealing. I do mentor others and help people individually, and I do enjoy doing that, but this seems very different from that. I’m not sure if it’s just me, but it feels like the natural progression for a lot of jobs is to slowly go from being a doer to being a manager. It seems as though if you say you don’t want to go that route, people act like you have no drive or ambition. I have plenty of drive, to learn new technology, develop new skills etc, just no drive to move up this ladder I feel is placed in front of me. I guess I am just not ranting but pseudo ranting, because it seems like if you stay in one position for a long time, people seem to think it is because you aren’t good enough to move up or something, but there are plenty of super talented people that have no business leading others.

    1. StaceyMcGill*

      Listen to your instincts! I posted earlier today about being miserable in a management position because it’s such a bad fit for my personality and skills. I like being an individual contributor so much more. Keep developing your talent and reiterate exactly what you said here: that you love learning and developing new skills, but this is the role where your talents truly shine.

      1. clow*

        thanks for the input! I know 100% i am not a great leader, I will discuss it with my manager and make it clear that I really don’t want leadership, just a place to grow my skills. I am glad I’m not the only one, it feels like everyone is supposed to want to be a manager.

  99. Camellia*

    I thought others might find this useful.

    When I had plantar fasciitis, my doctor recommended ice packs to help with pain and reduce inflammation. To handle this at work, I took in a shoe box and a large freezer Ziploc bag. I filled the bag about two-thirds full of ice from the break room, zipped it closed, and took it back to my desk where I put it into the shoe box, molding it to have a dip in the middle. I then put the shoe box with the ice under my desk. I could slip off my shoe and put my foot into the box on top of the ice, then wiggle my foot around a bit to make sure the ice came up and surrounded my foot as much as possible.

    I was able to keep ice on my foot for a large part of the day and it really helped speed my healing. Most people didn’t even realize I was doing this, it was so unobtrusive!

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      Thanks for sharing!

      I’ve had some back pain flaring up recently so I’ve been icing a lot while sitting with the ice pack between me and the chair. Not as ingenious as Camellia but it’s unobtrusive too :)

  100. Questioning Consultant*

    Hey all – quick question for you. I work for company A but they ‘lend’ me out to company B to serve as an consulting resource for workers comp claims. I now have an email and business cards for company B (in addition to my cards for company A). At client meetings company B implies I am an employee of the company. They have even said it more or less outright. I’m a bit uncomfortable about this – I don’t mind the spin of “she works with us” or something like that but to tell clients I’m an employee is a lie. Am I being too weird about this??? ( I won’t go into the fact that I don’t really want to work with/for company B but I don’t really have a choice in the matter – and no, I wasn’t hired to be an outside consultant, it just evolved into that).

  101. Qwertyuiop*

    I work with another co-worker, “Sofia”, who is older than me and slightly senior to me at my job. Sofia and I are the only ones in our department.
    Sofia ran into a manager and the manager told her that she wanted me to work on a project, not Tanya. She told Sofia, “Sofia, I don’t want you to work on this. I want qwerty to complete this project.”

    The manager also mentioned it’s because I have more education and an advanced degree.

    When Sofia gave me the information about the project, she told me all of this and goes, “I keep hearing about how you must be such an expert because you have an advanced degree.”

    Now Sofia is upset and is criticizing the work that I’m doing on my project. (The font is too small; haven’t I turned it in already, etc.) She either snaps at me or leaves the room when I enter and goes to talk to other people.

    The manager shouldn’t have said that to her, but it’s not right for her to take it out on me. She has years of experience and I reminded her of that, but I don’t like the way that she is treating me. (It’s funny because when roles are reversed, Sofia brags about everything and isn’t very sensitive towards me.)

    Sofia and another co-worker were once shocked that our boss had me doing work on a certain assignment that someone with more experience should be working on. They were discussing this in front of me. I understand their concern, but the boss assigned it to me. They played it off like, well they don’t want me getting blamed if something goes wrong, but they were really catty about it.

    What should I do? Should I say something to Sofia?

    1. Parenthetically*

      Your coworker sucks and isn’t going to change.

      A few strategies that might work in the moment:
      1. Act like you don’t know what they mean. In a tone of genuine confusion, ask for clarification. “Sorry, are you asking if I’ve turned the project in already? It isn’t due until two weeks from Thursday, you see.”
      2. Respond to the comments as though they’re being said earnestly. “Thanks for that feedback, maybe the font is too small!” “Absolutely, I’m sure I’ll need another pair of eyes to go over it! Nobody’s perfect!” “Yep, it’s all going to be a lot of work!” Cheerful, meaningless, brisk, light, unruffled.

      There are other tactics and I’m sure other commenters will have better scripts, but basically you need to check out of the game they’re playing. Don’t flatter Sofia’s experience, don’t try to get her to stop giving you a hard time, don’t JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) your choices. Change the way you respond to something bland, contentless, and cheery, and then get on with your work.

  102. Inopportune Moose*

    Comments on an earlier thread about “roger that” being too brusque have me a little nervous. My boss is remote 95% of the time, and has asked me to confirm receipt of assignments when I get them. I use a mix of “roger that!,” “will do!,” and “sounds good!” as soon as I get his email, and then send a more thorough email later. He does seem to prefer a more casual working relationship, but am I inadvertently being rude? I would go off his response/facial expressions/etc. if he weren’t remote.

    1. clow*

      hmm, I don’t think any of those are rude or brusque and I analyze everything. I actually find those responses quick but friendly. Then again, I often get “kk” as a response, and I always wonder if I pissed someone off lol.

    2. Parenthetically*

      “Roger that” with an exclamation point is definitely NOT brusque. It’s brisk and cheerful.

    3. Murphy*

      I don’t think that’s rude! I usually say something like “Will do” or “Got it”. (Or if it’s something really short, I’ll do it first and just say “Done”

      My boss also sends me emails that are really short like that, so I know he doesn’t mind.

    4. zora*

      If he has asked you to confirm receipt, then he is not expecting a full paragraph of text. Two words is exactly enough typing.

      But have you tried asking him? The next time you have a check in or a chance to talk, “Just checking, when you asked me to confirm receipt, is what I have been doing ok? Just writing “will do!” or “roger that!”. It seems the most efficient way to respond, but I don’t want to seem like I’m being too curt or rude!”

      Working for a new boss, I found the best thing was just to ask as many questions as possible as I got to know her, and asking if this was how she wanted me to do this thing.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Nah. I tend to reply to most emails with the same stuff. If you’re worried you can ask, but since he’s remote it seems like he’d probably appreciate brevity.

    6. Anony*

      I think it can come across as brusque if it is a break in the pattern. My boss often responds to emails with “yes” or “ok” or “sounds good”. She is very busy and that is the only response needed. If she usually sent long messages and then answered something with one word I would be more concerned that I had made her angry.

  103. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    Hey AAM, I’ve missed the crew around here! I’ve been mainly lurking the last several months as my focus turned a bit away from the job search and towards improving my physical health, but it’s a new year, I’m still severely under-employed (I currently work as a document review attorney, which for non-attorneys is basically considered a zero-skill paycheck), and it’s time for a new employment push because I’m just not ready to give up yet.

    I’ve recently seen several postings for small to medium size private firms looking for entry-level or near attorneys – usually they ask for 0-2 or 0-5 years of experience. I’ve been licensed since 2012 and have two years of judicial clerkship experience (generally considered good experience for private firms) and three years of document review since then. The problem is that I have a terrible track-record with private firms – since graduating I’ve only gotten two interviews with private firms – and I’m suspicious that my time in document review is keeping me from even getting a foot in the door. I’m considering trying to address this in my cover letter and would be curious to know if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on how to do that. My resume isn’t working on its own to get me in these doors so I don’t see how mixing it up will hurt.

    1. Inopportune Moose*

      IANAL, but as your fellow Moose– some of my strongest advocates in trying to transition from (what’s viewed as) scutty-er work to more rewarding roles are people who’ve made the same transition 2-3 years ago. They remember what it’s like, and often will not only give me tips but go to bat for me more than loose networking connections otherwise would. Would your network have some of those?

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        That is an excellent point. I’ll have to dig into LinkedIn and see if I can find anything along those lines. Thanks!

    2. CatCat*

      I’m glad to see you posting here again, MegaMoose!

      Unless there are some particular doc review projects that you had success with that matched what a firm was looking for (idk, like managing a project? multiple projects with tight deadlines?), I’m not sure what you would be calling out on the doc review front.

      I think doc review could be holding you back since that’s where you’ve been stuck for a few years. I’d focus on building skills that you aren’t getting there elsewhere. Are there legal aid programs in your area that have volunteer opportunities?

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Aw, it’s nice to be remembered! I meant less trying to highlight specific review accomplishments (which are rarely relevant) and more saying: look, I get that it looks bad that I’ve been stuck in doc review for three years, but I really am hungry for a shot and will work my butt off for you. Only more diplomatic like.

        There are some volunteer opportunities around but not having insurance has disqualified me from some, and I’ve had a hard time finding the time and mental energy for others. I do grade bar exams, which technically is paid, but is kind of volunteer-adjacent? It comes up in interviews a lot for whatever reason.

        1. CatCat*

          I’m not sure if there is a way to say what you’re trying to say. It just doesn’t really add anything to your application, IMO.

          I just mention the volunteering since that was a way I got really valuable experience when I was struggling (I did not have insurance and only did volunteer programs where the program’s malpractice insurance policy covered volunteers). It did take a time commitment (a lot could be done in the evenings) and mental energy, that is for sure, but it really paid off in terms of concrete experience and success I could demonstrate to employers (and was also some of the most satisfying work I have done as a lawyer).

          You mention that you have “had a hard time finding the time and mental energy for others” so there are two barriers there. First, on finding the time, are there other activities that you can cut back on to make the time available? Second, on the mental energy, what is it that you need to be energized?

          For me, on these fronts, a regular schedule was helpful so I avoided one-off volunteer opportunities (those can be great, but I found it hard to summon the energy for ad hoc types of activities like this), and did an evening clinic that met twice per month and did regular shifts at a legal aid hotline.

          1. CatCat*

            Also, this may seem kind of random, but one idea that is not technically legal services, but actually involves helping clients navigate fairly complex laws is Medicare counseling. I think all states have Medicare counseling programs that are heavily staffed with volunteers. This can give you experience providing direct counsel to clients helping them navigate programs that can be confusing (especially when it crosses over with other programs like Medicaid), understand their rights, and deal may also deal with insurers/providers. I worked for a legal aid group that made a lot of referrals to the Medicare counseling program and vice versa.

            I’ll look for a link.

  104. Toxic waste*

    What do you do when your boss likes you/wants you there, but your co-workers seem snarky and like they don’t like you?

    I’ve experienced this in my last toxic job, but think I’m facing it again. Any advice?

    1. Former Govt Contractor*

      No offense, but since this seems to be a pattern, maybe the issue lies with you. Might help to examine how you’re interacting with co-workers.

      1. Toxic waste*

        True, but the bad behavior started on the first and second days of the job, so not sure if it’s entirely my fault.

        1. Observer*

          It probably is not entirely your fault (although stuff can come up pretty quickly), but you can’t control other people, just yourself.

          So, whatever else you do, try to see if there is anything you do that could start you off on a very wrong foot.

    2. LizB*

      Any chance you’ve carried over destructive behavior patterns from your last toxic job that you’re not aware of? I’d sit down and do some reflecting, use the Open Thread here to bounce ideas off commenters, and try to figure out whether you’re behaving as your best self. Do you constantly vent or complain? Do you argue or over-justify your actions? Are you nervous and therefore making silly mistakes or not learning as fast as you ideally would? Do you CC your boss on everything as a CYA measure?

      Another possibility: Your co-workers don’t dislike you at all, they just have a sarcastic sense of humor and you’re so shell-shocked from the last job that you’re reacting badly to it. You could be interpreting what they see as light-hearted jokes as snippy jabs if the same kinds of things were actually meant as snippy jabs in your last job. Again, some reflecting could help with this.

    3. Anita-ita*

      I was going to say the same comment as above. Of course this isn’t always the case but it’s always good to take a step back and try to be our best person and correct our faults/bad habits. Sometimes we think view ourselves differently than other people view us. If this isn’t the first time it’s happened, it’s possible the issue is with you and not with them. Perhaps you have an annoying quirk, cannot take social cues and talk too much, maybe you seem like a goody goody. Maybe you’re negative and complain too much. I had a coworker in the past who was sweet as can be but my god she could not take social cues and had annoying as f quirks that made me fume whenever she spoke to me.

      Take a look at people you really really like and admire. What kind of qualities do they have? I always try to take my favorite qualities of my closest friends to enhance my personality to be a better and likable person. For example, in the past I had the tendency to talk about people a lot. I have a feeling its why I have no friends from previous positions. I noticed that other friends did not do this. So I decided to cut it out. Since I have, I have been able to retain new friendships and better old ones SO easily.

      1. Anita-ita*

        oops, didn’t see your reply to the above comment. Try to make friends with them then! Say hello, bring up conversation, etc.

  105. Marina*

    How do you deal with mean women in the work place? I started my job a few months ago, and some of these women are just nasty. I’m shy and quiet, so I guess I’m the perfect target? Most of these women have been with the company for a long time, so I guess it’s just a territorial thing, but they’re also sneaky about it. They don’t treat everyone this way- they’re nice to their friends, men, and to people who are a different race.

    Is there any hope of ever getting on their good side, or should I just give up?

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Be as polite as possible. It gives them nothing to work with which drives them nuts. I’ve been there, contract position while dealing with folks nearing retirement. Killing them with kindness drove them to find other targets when they failed to get a reaction out of me.

      It does suck dealing with those types.

    2. Former Govt Contractor*

      Give up. My last job was like this. Everyone has worked there a million years, and were polite to me when I first started. Within a month though, I was outcast. Four years of excellent performance while being as nice as I could be never changed anything. There were others who were regularly picked on as well, so I knew it wasn’t me personally, especially since I’ve never had problems making friends wherever I’ve worked before or since. Once this sort of bullying is allowed by management, it will continue.

      1. JustShutUpAlready*

        It seems so contrary to everything we learn as professionals – to treat people, if not with kindness, at least with civility. Some people never got the memo, apparently. I’m in the same position in my job at a small office. The main drama queen decided I did something that stole her thunder, so she has turned her pack against me. So this is what I do. I ask myself if these toxic women were in a club, would I want to be a member? Nope. Even if they were to invite me to their social events that they openly plan without me, would I want to be in public with them? Nope. It is hard not to take hostility personally, especially when you have no idea what causes it. But it’s best to ignore them. Don’t give in to their hate with correspondingly nasty behavior. Document overtly abusive behavior. On a bad day, shoot texts to people who love you to remind yourself of who you are. I feel for you. Good luck.

    3. Temperance*

      Gray rock. Be boring and polite and pretend that you don’t see their nastiness, and they’re going to get bored and give up.

  106. Sandy*

    We are looking at revising our attendance policy to something less rigid than our current points system. We’re in manufacturing, so punctuality really is crucial in order to have smooth operations. However, our current policy allows very little leeway for things beyond an employee’s control – illness, daycare closures, family emergencies. . .

    What kind of attendance policy does your company have? What do you like/not like about it?

    1. Aphrodite*

      Bear in mind that I work in higher education, which is pretty close to government in terms of flexibility and change. My college’s benefits are outstanding and among others they include 8 hours of sick time per month (that can be accumulated without limit). Within those sick time hours is time that can be identified as bereavement leave. You only need to have a doctor’s note if you are out more than five days at any one time, and to be honest, if you are that sick you probably want to see a doctor. If someone takes too much time off I assume HR, at a manager’s request, and perhaps the union might get involved but as I am not in HR I wouldn’t know about that.

      I like our policies very much. There are no questions; people are treated as adults. It helps to have a fabulous supervisor, which I do.

  107. Batshua*

    Okay, so I was diagnosed with ADHD last year at 34. I’m struggling to figure out what makes me different from other people, and what’s normal, but apparently the level of boredom I experience when I have nothing to do might require accommodation. If I’m already caught up on all my work, and there’s no other tasks to be given to me, is there a tactful way to ask my boss what I *should* be doing? Because sitting around doing nothing is excruciating. I’m happy to do training in theory, but the last time I had a lot of work sitting around doing nothing, I blasted through tons of them, and frankly, the optional online training courses we are offered are terrible. I understand I need to be ready to go at a moment’s notice, but is it reasonable of my boss to expect me to literally sit and do nothing if my brain can’t handle it? I was talking this over with my ADHD therapist and we were trying to brainstorm work-appropriate ways to fill the time. I’m honestly unsure I can get permission to … what, read online or … *something* without it becoming an HR issue and without it sounding like I’m being dramatic or trying to get out of doing work. Some afternoons there’s easily 3 hours of work time with nothing to do, so this is legitimately stressful

    1. o.b.*

      I’m in my mid-20s, was diagnosed with ADHD at 17, have recently had some mega-excruciatingly-slow periods at work—so I get where you’re coming from. But I don’t even think you need to frame this as an accommodation issue. ADHD affects how bored you are when you don’t have any work, but it sounds like you could easily frame this as a workload/work instructions issue (or clarification, if you’re seeking permission to do x) without going into ADHD at all.

      1. Batshua*

        I’m a little worried only because my boss LITERALLY said to me “It’s okay to be bored” and in my head I was like … NO THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND!

        I work a front desk, so when there’s nothing to do, there’s often literally nothing to do.

        1. o.b.*

          Oh, yep, it sounds like your manager doesn’t understand how much this is affecting your job satisfaction. Can you try to make the conversation less open-ended? “During downtime, is it OK for me to (browse x, read y, listen to z)?” “I have a lot of room on my plate and I’d like to use some of my free time to take on some additional projects like a, b, and c. How does that sound?” This way, you’re coming to the table with solutions to your problem, and the only thinking your manager needs to do is whether to say yes or no.

          If your manager’s response is “nope, sit there and look busy and do nothing until your will to go on has been completely eliminated and inside you are screaming all the time,” then… it might not be the best position for you. Which is OK, since it sounds like you would have a lot of time to think about potential other options ;)

          1. o.b.*

            Also (sorry to double-comment), it’s possible your boss also didn’t really understand quite how bored you are… If you haven’t gone into this much detail already, maybe try something like “I understand that there will always be some downtime. However, right now I’m doing (tasks) and it’s taking me (3 hours a day) to complete them all, leaving me with (4+ hours of internal screaming). I would like to use those hours to (do literally anything).”

            Refinery29 also had a great post that I still refer to sometimes—
            http://www.refinery29.com/bored-at-work-solutions

            You could also frame it less as “problem with how I feel” (albeit so, sooo valid a problem) and more as “problem with the company not getting the most out of its resources.” And, again, if your manager’s answer is “the company would like nothing more than to pay you for 4 hours of staring at a wall until your brain liquefies” then this job is probably not the best, most fulfilling fit for you.

            1. Batshua*

              Yeah, and although I usually love my job when it’s the right amount of busy, I am thinking of moving into another department (HR or something where I can transfer my skills) where I won’t be working front desk, because when there aren’t patients and the phone doesn’t ring…

              It’s like the inside of my head becomes a terrible college radio station.

    2. Ainomiaka*

      “Hey, can we make a list of things people might need help with/that aren’t on my radar but need to get done/ that I could do for the future/(something else like that) that I can do during my downtime?” is not an unprofessional question to ask your supervisor. A good manager will be happy if you ask for things to do, particularly if you do it one time in a meeting instead of just showing up each time. I wouldn’t explicitly ask for permission to surf the web unless they bring it up first, but getting a list of things that aren’t high enough priority to justify anyone pulled off normal work yet still need to be done shouldn’t be weird.

    3. anonagain*

      Do you have coworkers whose work you can help with? I tend to fly through my work a lot too, so when I’m in this situation and my boss isn’t available to give me other assignments, I have a list of coworkers I go to. (My boss knows I do this.)

      I also keep a running list of small projects that no one has time for, like improving a template or documenting our different processes. I keep a second list of my own professional development tasks (online training, reading professional journals, learning new software) and organization stuff I put off (sorting files, planning, writing down the work I’ve done in preparation for my annual evaluation).

      I also suggest things I could work on. If the training you’re offered isn’t the best, could you offer to research some different options? Is there a committee you could join? Are there any special projects you could take on? Maybe you could spend a certain number of hours per week working on projects for another department or helping to train people.

      I personally wouldn’t ask for permission to just read non-work stuff online. I would try to get more work. I would also talk to your boss about what you can do when you finish everything on your list and they’re not available to give you more work.

      I find it so helpful to have basic guidelines for what I should do in these situations. Certain things are too far outside of the scope of my job. Also, if there’s a high priority project where I could be very useful and I decide to spend my time reorganizing files from 2003, that’s not ideal. But I know that within certain parameters, anything I choose to do will be a reasonable way to spend my time until I get another assignment from my boss.

  108. NoTalk*

    Pulled out of a conference, forced to apologize and may be fired

    Last week, I wrote about a colleague giving me the silent treatment without a known cause. This continued for 10 days until she complained to our shared boss during a conference.

    Instead of waiting until we returned home, the boss and another senior person tracked me down at the conference, pulled me out of a session, and demanded I “eat crow” and apologize and threatened to terminate me. In order to keep my job, I have since apologized to the offended party and others. Still, no one will tell me the offence or explain how this escalated.

    I am very much in limbo at the moment, particularly as nothing is in writing and HR isn’t involved.

    Please tell me how to survive this. I am really worried.

    Thanks!

    1. Jadelyn*

      And you genuinely have no idea what you did? Nobody has actually told you what the problem is? This seems like an extreme response to a small thing, so I suspect whatever you did may have been bigger than you think or realize.

      1. NoTalk*

        Jadelyn:

        No, no one has told me. When I asked for information, my boss’ response was “We are not relitigating the past.”

        Even after the apology, my colleague still refuses to either acknowledge or speak with me. She goes out of her way to address the person sitting next to me, but not to even turn her head in my direction.

        So, I have offered an apology for an unknown offense and have received no sign of acceptance.

        I am beyond confused.

        1. Anony*

          Have you ever had issues with this colleague before that you thought were resolved or minor? That is all I can think of. “Relitigating the past” implies that it was addressed at some point.

          1. NoTalk*

            Anony, I’ve only been on the job two months. The colleague in question has been out of the office for nearly two weeks of that time.

        2. Jadelyn*

          If that’s the only answer you can get out of your boss or colleague, it’s time to involve HR. I usually wouldn’t suggest this, but your boss is being an idiot with the “relitigating the past” BS, and just to cover your own ass you need to know what’s going on. If it’s something as major as it sounds like based on your coworker’s and boss’s reactions, HR should know what’s happening. What happens if this comes up in your performance review and affects your annual raise (assuming your company does those)? What happens if it becomes the basis for getting fired? You need to know, and if your boss won’t take the very basic step of telling you what you did wrong, you could even wind up doing it again without realizing it. It’s time to bring in either your grandboss or HR.

          1. NoTalk*

            Jadelyn:

            There’s no real HR. The woman overseeing it is a 64-year-old former executive assistant who will likely retire later this year.

            Additionally, my boss and almost everyone else will be gone by the time my evaluation is done. The contractors in charge haven’t done evaluations for anyone in the past six months.

            1. Observer*

              Right now, this is who is your HR. Her age doesn’t matter – she’s the person who might be able to get some answers for you.

              1. NoTalk*

                Observer:

                I really doubt that the woman who couldn’t help me with my payroll or health insurance enrollment is going to be much help with this personnel issue. Beyond her limited understanding of HR paperwork, she also works under my boss who sided with the bully and demanded that I “eat crow” and apologize.

                I just need to keep my head down and work through this.

    2. Karo*

      How can you give an effective apology if you’re not told what the offense is? I’m so perplexed by the behavior of your colleague and management here.

      1. Murphy*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering. How could you apologize without knowing what you were apologizing for?

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you need to go to HR, tell them what happened, and say that you are more than willing to work through the issue IF someone tells you what the issue is! This sounds so very sketchy.

    4. Natalie*

      You’re not in a healthy work environment. Are you looking for another job? If not, probably start.

      Run, run, he’s behind the door!

      1. Liane*

        Yes, this sounds like a case of “Your coworker sucks, your boss sucks, other upper level people suck–and none of them are going to change.”

        1. NoTalk*

          Liane:

          All of management is contractors who will be gone by late summer.

          No one really cares about the long-term health of the organization.

            1. NoTalk*

              Natalie, after only two months, I don’t know that I can. For the time being, I am stuck keeping my head down and trying to build up my accomplishments.

              1. Natalie*

                Look, I don’t mean to be a broken record but you need to get out. You’ve only been there for two months and they are already acting completely batshit. And you’ve presumably been keeping your head down and being on your best behavior because its a new job, and this is still happening:
                – “the silent treatment” isn’t really appropriate in one’s personal life, but it’s capital-I inappropriate at work.
                – demanding someone “eat crow” and apologize to a coworker is weird by itself, but demanding it when you won’t even tell the person what they supposedly did wrong is extra strength crazy hot sauce on top
                – good managers don’t have to threaten to fire people. They might bring up termination in a conversation about performance, but its not a threat and it shouldn’t happen in the kind of circumstance you described.

                This isn’t going to get better. Seriously. But it could get worse, and even if it doesn’t it will warp your sense of what is appropriate behavior in the workplace. Both in what you expect, and in what kind of behavior you yourself engage in.

                All of that aside, there’s no downside to looking. Doing nothing gives you a zero percent chance of getting a new position, but looking is a non-zero chance and that’s greater than zero.

                1. NoTalk*

                  Natalie, you’re right in that there’s no harm in looking.

                  The big drawback is that I left my previous job after six months because of financial instability and the phasing out of my position. I need to be able to keep my head down and stay somewhere for a while. Who wants to hire an unlucky job hopper?

                2. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  @NoTalk

                  It’s better to get out now and find something so you can leave this off your resume completely. The writing is on the wall that it is not going to work out long term here from everything you’ve said.

    5. Fashion Backward*

      Go to HR ASAP. Explain what has happened, be completely honest and open with them about what happened, and ask them to help you. Whatever happened, there’s something very sketchy going on here.

    6. SRF*

      NoTalk, I fully understand the inclination to stay at a crappy work place because you don’t want to look like a job hopper. But it sounds like you had legitimate reasons to leave your previous job, so you could say something in an interview, if they ask, like “My job at (job 1) was being phased out so I accepted a position at (job 2). After being there for a couple of months, it became apparent that it was not a good fit for me.” And then make sure you ask some thoughtful questions through the interview.

    7. Close Bracket*

      This really stinks, and I am sorry.

      I see that you don’t really have an HR department, just one woman. I would still approach her and ask for advice on repairing the relationship. Yes, from your perspective, you aren’t the one who broke it. From everybody else’s perspective, you are, and they hold the reins. Plus, you do want to repair the relationship, even if you didn’t break it.

      The thing is, if you really did something that your coworker thought was egregious, you will need to change your behavior going forward. And you can’t do that without knowing which behaviors to change. Tell your HR lady that you want a third party’s input on how to go forward to avoid whatever the situation was happening again. Don’t ask what you did. Focus on moving forward and avoiding offending your coworker. Don’t just ask what not to do, ask if there are things you haven’t been doing that you can start doing. Say you would like to know if other people are reporting similar complaints so that you can make a change before reaching an explosive situation such as what happened at the conference.

      You might end up being piled on and finding that there is nothing you can do right. That is a risk once people know they have free rein to complain about someone. I’m sorry about that. I don’t know how to mitigate that situation.

      Good luck.

      1. Bittersweet_Charity*

        Close Bracket:

        The only change management will deem satisfactory is for me to go to work and be completely silent.

        Therefore, that will be my course of action for the next few weeks. I expect now that the silent treatment is over, things will begin to return to normal.

  109. Typhoon of Skills*

    Has anyone had any success with a professional resume writer/therapist, where you tell them everything you do and they reformulate it in a professional impressive resume format?

    My work history has created a sort of Major in X with minors in Y, Z, etc. I used to use the term “multi stack” but that particular phraseology has morphed to a career path I’m not interested in. I have extensive experience, with a wide variety of extremely useful skills in my industry that work well for management and director level positions, but my resumes still come across as uninspired when it should make me more competitive. I’d love some direction with this if it’s helpful in the long run, but the resume professionals I’ve come across aren’t really offering what I’m looking for.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’ve never really had great experience with professional resume writers and career counselors and advisors. Their advice was sound, but nothing that I didn’t already know and nothing particularly helpful. I’m not really sure what would be especially impressive, but as someone with a wide-ranging background, I’ve had some luck creating customized resumes that are aimed at each particular job I’ve applied for.

      I’m not sure if this will be helpful for you, but it may be something to consider. I have a big multi-page resume in Word, and then I make a copy of it and target the specific job I’m applying for by deleting the most unrelated and irrelevant material. Sometimes I’ll rewrite or rephrase what is left to reflect the language used in the advertisements and job descriptions for the jobs I’m applying for.

  110. kas*

    So my workload has tripled in the past month and I’m drowning. I’m a coordinator doing management level work. I’m glad I was trusted to take on additional responsibilities but I’m pretty much working 12 hour days. I’m either staying at work late or bringing work home. When I’m not actually working, I’m thinking about work. I have 2 junior coworkers that have been assigned to help me but it doesn’t make much of a difference as I still have to review their work. To make matters worse, a senior manager is constantly asking me to speak to clients about topics that are not related to my job. For example, if I work in creative, I’m being asked to have IT discussions with clients. I’ve never worked in IT. I spoke to my manager and she agrees that this is in no way my responsibility and she keeps speaking to this manager about it but yet he keeps doing it. At this point I’m not sure how to push back and I feel like I look incompetent. He’s not understanding that I am not an expert on everything and I do not want clients thinking I’m clueless when I call them to speak about IT issues etc. and cannot answer their questions. I’m just really frustrated and although I love the actual work I do, I’m ready to look for a new job.

    1. DDJ*

      I would bring it up with your manager again, but focus on the impact to the company. I’m going to call “the other manager” Fergus, so that this is easier.

      “I’m concerned because, even though we’ve talked about it, Fergus continues to direct me to speak to clients about IT matters. I’m worried that the clients aren’t getting the best representation of our business. Because I don’t work in IT, I’m not able to answer the client’s questions, and I feel this is reflecting negatively on the company. Could you please speak with him again?”

      You could also ask if it would be appropriate for you to refuse these requests directly. If your manager has your back, then she should be ok with that. But she’ll need to truly have your back, so that if Fergus asks you to make those calls to clients, you can say “Manager and I have discussed this and she’s asked that I not take on that particular task anymore.” Then Fergus can talk to you manager if he has issues with that, rather than just coming to you.

      It sounds like you have more than enough on your plate without also taking on tasks that don’t pertain to your job at all. Good luck with it!

  111. Jadelyn*

    Can I just say, f*** this week with something spiky and on fire? (Just a venting post…)

    We’re in the midst of annual merit increase processing and…it is not going well. We were going to use our new HRIS to calculate the retro payments (since the raises are effective 1/1/18 but not processed until the 2/23 payroll), since the payroll admin for our parent company has been using that function in the system and she said it works fine for them.

    Well, turns out that…
    A: She’s not really using them? She’s just using them to calculate the amount and then manually plugging the amount into payroll. Which…why? I thought the whole point was it would calculate, we review and approve, and it pulls into payroll on its own. Why would you even bother letting the system do the calculation for you but then *not* have it insert the total into payroll??
    B: The retro function can only do whole pay periods. 1/1/18 is literally in the exact middle of a pay period for us – but, the parent company is on semimonthly payroll so it makes sense that she’s never run into this issue before since her pay periods run 1st-15th/15th-EOM so it comes out clean for this kind of thing anyway. So we had to get higher-up approval to extend the retro back the extra week in order to be able to continue with our plan of using the retro function in the HRIS.
    C: And then, it all fell apart. It’s not calculating the amounts in any kind of sane way that we can figure out. Because it’s our first time doing it this way, and we’ve had some Very Bad Experiences with this system going haywire on us in the past, I also pulled a separate paid hours report from the system and did my own calculations of the retros to compare before just blindly trusting the system to do it for us. And…after comparing about two dozen people, almost half of them had discrepancies between my calculation and the system’s. But the weird thing is, it wasn’t any kind of consistent amount – a few were less than a dollar off, which suggests to me it’s just a rounding issue between Excel and the system, but others were as much as $30 off! And no consistency as to whether the system’s number was higher or lower than mine. And there’s really no time to stop and review each one in detail to try to track down the problem, since we have to have these DONE today; we’ve got a short payroll processing week next week due to the holiday so this has to be ready to go before then.

    I almost had a breakdown in the office yesterday. I can deal with something going wrong when I can get some kind of grip on *why* it’s going wrong, even if I can’t actually fix it – but when there’s no rhyme or reason to it and it’s not clear what’s even causing the problem, I get super frustrated. Plus, I just got my promotion to HRIS Specialist like…two months ago, and so now I’m feeling like I’ve failed at that because the system is Doing A Thing and I can’t get it to stop doing the thing, and that’s literally my job now. Even though I know, logically, my team doesn’t blame me, they know this system is temperamental and it’s not something I’ve caused and I’m doing my best to get the damn thing corralled and under control…but I’m still feeling awful about it.

    So we’ve given up on using the retros feature in the system and are just doing it the way we did in past years – calculate the retros ourselves and upload the amounts into payroll as a bulk file. But it feels like giving up, and as the Tech Person of the office who’s joked about dragging this company into the 21st century by its heels if I have to, I’m kinda taking it personally.

    *deep breath* Okay. Thank you for letting me vent, and now I have to go back to reviewing the damn retros and preparing the upload file.

  112. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    When my work schedule increases or shifts later, I find myself having to come in before 9 am regardless (city parking- rates jump from $9/day to $25/day if you don’t get the “early bird” pre 9 am rate).

    So, to give myself the same amount of after work free time, I try to exercise before going in. The way I figure it, I can either go to the gym or get an equivalent or greater number of steps just walking on my Fitbit. So I walk around this skyway system, then come to work.

    I’m never drenched in sweat, but a little warm, damp, and tired. How do you all clean up fast before work, and is it okay to exercise and then clean up a bit in the work bathroom? Also if there aren’t showers, is deodorant and washing your face enough? I don’t smell anything but I don’t want to be the stinky person.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Maybe do a quick wipe down with some baby wipes and then reapply deodorant and wash face? I’m all about not being That Coworker too, so I appreciate that you’re thinking about this. The baby wipes would also help you cool off a bit.

    2. CheeryO*

      I get a tiny bit sweaty on my lunch walks and runs (I only run when it’s cool enough that I won’t pour sweat), and I do wipes and a little extra deodorant, and I make sure I’m totally dry before I re-clothe myself. I think that’s probably enough, but I understand the worry. Do you have someone who you could ask? (Not as in yo, smell my armpits and tell me if I stink, but just from a normal distance.)

    3. bluelyon*

      I walk 5 miles partly uphill to work in DC summers (aka a sweatroom) – my biggest thing is to wear gym clothes so that my work stuff doesn’t get even a smidgen sweaty.
      Following that – reapply deodorant, quick rinse of my face, and (ymmv) middle of my back where sweat tends to pool and a large glass of ice water/iced tea.
      Changing my clothes and the process above takes me about 8 minutes but I have it down well these days – when I started doing this it would take about 13-15.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Yeah – ive got a hot and sweaty commute in the summer and I take a few minutes and a washbag into the work bathroom and: redeodorant, hit my hair up with dry shampoo, and maybe wash my face/wash face and apply makeup. I usually give it 15 minutes from when I first arrive to cool down because otherwise it can just undo everything you just did!

  113. Snark*

    So….four days ago I emailed a networking contact who I last contacted on friendly terms a few years ago, who used to work for my employer, and who actually interviewed me for my job. I fully expected to hear back from him, but I have not. Do I ping him again in a couple of days? Do I let it ride?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’d give it at least full week. Maybe he’s got his head buried in a project or something. Or if it’s like where I am, the dude could be down with the flu and/or strep or dying from allergies.

    2. Peter*

      I’d leave it until two weeks after you originally contacted them. They might be on vacation, or out sick, or simply very busy.

    3. Snark*

      Weirdly and serendiptiously, he emailed me within 15 minutes of posting this.

      So I’m not winning the lottery, what do AAM?

  114. Future Analyst*

    Just a note: I had to make up a test catalog for work, and I used various llama-related jobs, and it was awesome. The person who implemented it ended his email with “P.S. I think I’d be a great llama groomer.” :)

  115. Database Geek*

    I got a job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I start next week – I’ll be doing similar work as I was but I’m REALLY nervous … possibly impostor syndrome talking and the fact that this is the first NEW job I’ll be going to in a while ( I had my last job for over 5 years and then I was out of work for almost a year… ) but I HAVE JOB! …

  116. DaniCalifornia*

    OMG guys. I have been reviewing resumes this week for a temporary scanning position. This person will be here for 7 weeks and basically scanning client documents all day. High paid hourly position. No client interaction, emailing, phone or anything customer service related. Not exactly the hardest job, but requires a little common sense and attention to detail. In the ad it specifically states send the resume via PDF. 90% of them come via Word docs. But the resumes…I cannot believe how many people send me awful resumes. 2 full pages of COLORFUL pages with their photos on it and a background that looks like a Lisa Frank sticker book. I have resumes from Indeed that are 4 lines. They just filled in the position name and a year. No description about what the job is or what they did. I got a crazy email from “Doris” who won’t send me a resume but writes rambling sentences about how I’m not getting her information via PDF because then I can edit it and to leave her alone and then she gave me her phone number.

    The icing on the cake this morning was our new top weirdest/bad/not-a-resume resume. (Previously it was the 6 page word document, with different fonts, size 72 for a person who had held 3 jobs) Today I got an email with a JPG attached. It was a cell phone picture of a piece of paper with an applicants information on it. Basically it the contact info, a school attended, 2 lines about a job, or 2 lines about 5 different jobs. It’s very hard to tell with the way the person wrote the sentence. And smiley faces. After bullet points and sentences.

    I just want to email back all the applicants and go ‘Here is a link to askamanager.org I believe it would be helpful in your job search.’ AARRRHHHHGGGGGG

    1. Snark*

      So….wait….it was a hand-written page the person took a picture of and emailed you?

      Somewhere Alison is screaming AND DOES NOT KNOW WHY

      2. Plague of frogs*

        I will start contacting random people and telling them to leave me alone. Then when they do, I’ll know that I totally got in their head.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Contract a local temp agency to take care of filling this for you. Let them deal with the crazies :)

    4. London Calling*

      I admit to not being in any way shape or form a tech expert but isn’t the point of PDF that you CAN’T edit it?

    6. Close Bracket*

      > No client interaction, emailing, phone or anything customer service related. Not exactly the hardest job, but requires a little common sense and attention to detail

      Hire me! I hate talking to people, and I have attention to detail six ways from Sunday! Also, I know how to save word documents as PDFs. :-)

  117. ginkgo*

    I just need to vent about my ridiculous job. (I’ve been laid off and am gritting my teeth through the last two weeks… I’m totally checked out and don’t care about any of this, but it’s too ridiculous not to share here)

    I work in a small (<10 people) satellite office on the opposite coast from the main office. Only one person in my office has been with the company longer than 6 months. The main office has a history of neglecting us, and in addition, in the 6 months I've been there, two people in our office have been suddenly fired (in addition to be me being laid off because they decided that my newly-created-when-I-was-hired position needed to be based on the opposite coast). People are shook.

    So the CEO and a VP come out to our office and schedule a mysterious meeting. No agenda, no one knows what this meeting is, people are freaking out. I ducked out for a doctor's appointment (because again, dgaf) but I heard afterward that it was a meeting to talk about how they could make our office happier. Great. Except A) Do you genuinely not get how that meeting looked to people?! B) The CEO apparently said she was "committed to helping this office be happy, but you all also have to be committed to being happy." And then basically proceeded to blame them for being negative using some analogy involving pickles. It was very "the beatings will continue until morale improves." (Especially because again, she was saying this to a group of people who have been with the company anywhere between 2 and 5 months.)

    Anyway, eventually the CEO's conclusion was that we needed to go out to lunch/dinner/drinks more often on the company's dime. (We already like each other and enjoy each other's company. We just need the main office to…stop firing people.) I would never say this to her, because I have no doubt she would take away the lunches while failing to fix the other problems, but I actually think the lunches are pretty bad for morale, because it quickly turns into "I'm going to order everything I can because the company OWES me this for what they're putting me through!"

    So at least my last two weeks will be full of lots of pizza, fancy green juice, avocado toast, La Croix, and whatever else the company wants to throw at us to buy our happiness and non-pickliness. Eyeroll.

    1. Banana*

      That’s ridiculous. There are tried and true ways to increase morale, and none of them include browbeating people into being happy.

  118. zora*

    Anyone here know about Corporate Social Responsibility programs???

    I have recently found out this is becoming more of a thing, with entire departments of people working on social responsibility/social enterprise, etc stuff in large companies. And I feel like this would be perfect for my background, but I’m having a hard time finding out more about it.

    1. What job titles should I be looking for on job sites? It’s hard to find in searches, because “corporate” “social” and “Responsibility” are in like every job posting ever.

    2. Any tips about what I should be highlighting, or what to get more experience in to get those jobs?

    3. Any places to do some networking in this field? I’ve found a couple of groups here in SF, but I’m wondering if there are more I’ve missed.

    Thank you!!

    1. Flinty*

      I don’t know how you get those jobs, but as a nonprofit partner who worked with CSRs, I always wished that they would have a background in nonprofits, which they rarely did. A lot of the CSRs I worked with were internal hires who had been consultants, and their focus on doing programs that would make their employees feel good/be fun to the sometimes blatant exclusion of actual impact on the community could be pretty off-putting. (The great ones were good listeners, and were able to balance creating impactful programs and employee engagement.)

      I’m curious what others will say!

      1. zora*

        See, that’s what I’m worried about. I do have a background in nonprofits, so I feel like I would be really good at this, but I’m worried I’m competing with high-level internal people who see it more as a business development position. Sigh.

        1. Flinty*

          I hope you get some good advice on here then, because I’m totally rooting for you :)

          Also, the reality is that most companies have CSR programs not out of the goodness of their hearts but for business development and good PR. Which is fine, and I think there’s still ways to steer those programs in a good direction, but it’s also worth thinking about (which you probably have) whether you would ultimately just find that frustrating.

          1. zora*

            Yes, I get that part. I am currently working in a for-profit, but in a totally pathetic admin job, so I get the biz dev and PR parts of it, totally. But at least my day-to-day job would be at a higher level with more responsibility than just being a secretary for the rest of my life. I do see how it could get frustrating, but there are frustrating things about nonprofits, too, especially getting paid poverty wages! ;o)

      2. Jillociraptor*

        I looked into CSR a couple of years ago when I was job hunting and heard the same thing: these are almost always internal hires, and tend to focus more on organizational culture building or PR than on external impact. I was bummed to find this out, because working in the nonprofit sector, I’ve worked for organizations that have benefitted a ton from having corporate partners, so I know what the impact can be for both the nonprofit and the for-profit organization.

    3. Temperance*

      Yes! So there aren’t as many jobs out there that you might think from the media – I work in a related field of the legal industry, and there are like 230 people who do what I do nationwide.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, I realize that. About 15 years ago when I first heard of “CSRs”, there would be like one person in an organization focused on that, and it would be someone at the Executive level, more of someone who had been a high-level manager moving into a ‘sitting on boards’ kind of position. So, I wrote this off as not a viable career track for me.

        But this year I went to an event about creating a Social Impact program at your company, and there were panelists from tech companies who were saying they had departments of like 5-10 people at their companies working on these angles. And I realized this is becoming a bigger thing than it used to be. So, my impression isn’t just from the media, but from actual people doing those kinds of programs.

        I am going to keep networking with that group here locally, but just thought I’d put it out here to see if anyone else had experience.

    4. Fiddlesticks*

      The CSR programs that you’re looking for — the ones externally focused and not primarily interested in internal employee-oriented work — are going to be under the umbrella of “corporate philanthropy” or “[company name] foundation.” For example Llama Corp. Philanthropic Center or Llama Inc. Foundation. Caveat: some of these are pure philanthropy and less CSR (very different propositions actually) so you’ll probably need to do some digging into the mission statements etc.

      And to echo something people are saying here, a lot of this hiring is going to come from internal sources, because part of supporting a CSR program is knowing the goals and mission of the business well enough to navigate advocating for it while working with nonprofit partners. That said, getting a foot in the door through one of the above might be a way to lateral into those roles!

      Good luck!

  119. Nobody Here by That Name*

    Ok, so I was asked to share about my experience working with ghosts, as it were. (“As it were” in that the ghosts weren’t co-workers, but encountering ghosts was part of my job.) Not sure which details in particular folks will find interesting so I’ll give some broad strokes and then people can feel free to ask questions.

    Context is that I worked as a tour guide in New Orleans for several years. The company I worked for offered multiple kinds of walking tours, one of which was a ghost tour of the French Quarter. Those familiar with NOLA will know this does not narrow down the company I worked for at all, said tours are very common.

    The company I worked for also did research into hauntings. Some with the goal of possibly adding new sites to the tour, some because people knew the folks I worked for and trusted them to look into things.

    For myself, though I come from a family where hunches are common (for example, my mom being able to say “That’s so and so on the phone” when the phone rang in the days before caller ID, when so and so hadn’t called us in years), I am also very analytical. My bias is towards mundane explanations, and that was the same for our group. I also have a psychology background, so know how easy it can be for research to be manipulated, cold readings to be done, people to fool themselves, and so on.

    In other words, it’s never a situation of someone’s third cousin’s hair dresser’s friend once met someone who said they saw something that looked like a shadow during a blackout and so OBVIOUSLY that was a ghost. The burden of proof is much higher.

    Generally speaking when investigating a haunting or when trying to determine if a ghostly encounter happened on a tour, you try to eliminate the mundane possibilities first. The lamp moved: okay well did a heavy truck just drive past? The lights flickered: okay, well it’s an old building and the electric wiring may be faulty. And so on and so forth.

    I would also, without telling my tourists, conduct my own experiments. Depending on the day we could go inside of one of the buildings, which was a hotel, and pause for drinks and a bathroom break. This gave me a chance to watch my tourists and see what they did and how they reacted to things without the bias of them knowing they were being watched for ghostly encounters or the bias of knowing what the encounters might be. After all, if I tell you that your house has a ghost in it that’s known to make people’s ears feel itchy you’re probably going to get an itchy ear even if I was making that up. On the other hand if I say nothing and tourist after tourist on different dates and times of days but in the same building comments to their friend about how weird it is that one of their hands feels ice cold for no reason, that becomes an interesting bit of data.

    From a haunting perspective, the way we described it to our tourists is that there are two kinds: residual and active. Residual hauntings are like a recording. Something happened in a location that was so intense it left an imprint of some kind on that spot. These are often hauntings that are repetitive in nature, such as hearing the same footsteps walking down a hallway over and over, or seeing a woman running through a room again and again.

    This is also a good time to point out that there is no sixth sense needed to see a haunting. The five usual ones will do you just fine. Though it is possible to get impressions from hauntings in ways other than the five senses, it’s not necessary. Also beyond the five can be comparatively mundane too. For instance, some residual hauntings are emotional in nature, where you cross a certain point and suddenly feel great sadness, or despair, for instance.

    The other kind of ghost, active, is when somebody’s home, so to speak. There’s some kind of sentience at work and the ghost is able to understand and interact with their environment to some extent. Some ghosts seem to be able to go very far with this, adapting to changes in their location (such as building renovations) and advancement in technology. For example, some active ghosts were known to move about wherever they wanted, while others were known to stick only to floors that existed in the building during the time period that they were alive. Though to be fair I never did ask them about this, so maybe it wasn’t that they didn’t know the building had changed as much as it was that they didn’t approve of the changes and were refusing to acknowledge them ;)

    Active ghosts can be anything from nice to nasty just like people. There was a restaurant in the Quarter that had a ghost which watched over a family, for instance, so was very nice if you were nice and would toss you down a staircase if he thought you were messing with his family.

    As I’ve said, there was always some kind of haunted activity which happened on the tours. Examples of “anybody could see this” type stuff included chandeliers moving, parts of wall sconces swinging, and doors locking and/or unlocking themselves with audible BANGS! even though they were manual locks with no electronic connections. And when I talk about the chandeliers and sconces, I mean very obvious movement that could not be attributed to an outside vibration. For example, a single crystal on a sconce swinging wildly back and forth when no one was or had been standing next to it, and no other crystal was moving or in any way affected.

    Things which I also observed included the ice cold hands I mentioned before, sudden mood swings in the same location even though I never told my tourists that mood swings should occur or where they should stand for anything to happen, and tourists jumping after being touched by ghosts, most notably multiple tourists who did not know each other and weren’t even looking at each other, who startled or jumped one after another as though someone had just run through them all while playing tag. (Which happened more than once, with different groups, in different parts of the same building).

    Of course people also reported seeing ghosts, but I can’t speak to the veracity of those claims. Likewise I know there were times when I felt like I saw something, but maybe that was my mind wanting to see things, so who knows?

    I think that covers the jist of it? Please hit me up with questions. I don’t mind talking about it, just don’t know what folks are interested in specifically. =)

    1. KatieKate*

      This is fascinating! I used to work in a haunted hotel, but I only had one encounter where it was clearly not attributable to anything else.

      What was your first experience with something that couldn’t be explained away?

      1. Nobody Here by That Name*

        Good question. Probably the stuff with my mom and her hunches. If you’re asking for NOLA I honestly couldn’t say. Probably one of the crystals moving in the wall sconces, if I had to guess.

    2. Girlwithapearl*

      I loved this, thank you!
      Also if you have a ghost tour company recommendations I’d welcome it. I am taking my mom there in a couple weeks and yelp has so many options it’s overwhelming!

      1. Nobody Here By That Name*

        Glad to provide some interest! And Haunted History tours is one of the older companies and gives good tours. I’ve had friends who visited NOLA recently and took tours with them and liked them, so that rec is still good. If you go to the Bourbon Orleans say hi to the kid ghosts for me =)

        Not sure if you’re looking for other recs but since my tour guide instincts have now been activated: Gallier House is a great one for a historic house tour. Court of the Two Sisters has an awesome jazz brunch. Go to Central Grocery for a muffaleta sandwich (plan on sharing). The Voodoo Museum is the real deal and not a tourist trap, so go there if you actually want to learn something. If you want a psychic reading to go Bottom of the Cup Tea Room.

        Preservation Hall has pure jazz. Pat O’Briens is the home of the hurricane. Be aware they DO NOT WATER DOWN THE DRINKS FOR THE TOURISTS. This applies to ALL of New Orleans and the caps lock is required because every time I tell people this and every time they come back from their trip going “You weren’t kidding about that!!” Of course hit up Cafe du Monde for the beignets.

        Lafayette cemetery in the Garden District is the one that looks most like what cemeteries did in the old days, so if you want that “historic” experience visit that one. Get a walking tour of the Garden District that includes this cemetery for a twofer. Bear in mind this is an active cemetery so be respectful.

        St. Louis No 1 is the oldest cemetery. Definitely take a tour if you visit this one. It’s a maze of tombs that are easy to get lost in so it’s not meant for wandering alone. If you could only visit one cemetery I’d vote for Lafayette, fwiw.

        Beyond that there is tons to see and do. If you have more specific recs you’re looking for let me know. =)

  120. TheAssistant*

    How does one come out at work? Should one come out at work?

    I’m a lady, who has, in the past, exclusively dated men. I’m now dating women (in addition to men). It is still very new and exciting! But I’m wondering if I out myself to my work colleagues, or if it is just a bit too much information.

    Do I say something upfront? Just not censor myself when I mention the pronouns of a recent date? Only bring it up if I get into a relationship with someone?

    I’m not worried about any backlash at all – my job is about as liberal as they come – but not sure of the etiquette here.

    1. Nobody Here by That Name*

      Bi person here. If you’re not worried about backlash or anything I’d go with not censoring the pronouns. That way it comes out (heh) naturally. It’s not the kind of thing which requires a formal announcement, IMO.

      Though now I’m picturing a Michael Scott-style “I. Declare. BISEXUALITY!” type scenario…

    2. CM*

      Please don’t make a general “I’m dating women, everyone!” announcement in the workplace. It’s so awkward and will make your coworkers feel they have to congratulate you or something. I understand this is new and exciting to you, and you can express that excitement to your friends, but I’d keep it out of the office. I would just talk about it like you would talk about any other relationship. If you would normally talk about your date last night, go ahead and talk about it. If somebody expresses surprise and wants to know more, then you can say whatever you like.

    3. Snark*

      So, my romantic preferences are hetero but my marriage is open and at times poly, so. I generally just don’t really talk about my romantic life at work, but I have the benefit of being in a relationship where the default assumption is monogamy and heterosexuality, and so nobody’s ever going to ask me “so, how was the date last night?”

      I would err on the side of just not censoring pronouns. I think the big announcement is a little TMI/Big Thing-ish, but I think mentioning it incidentally is both honest and doesn’t make it a Big Thing. If someone wants to know more, they can ask, and if not, they’ll be like, “oh, I guess TheAssistant also dates women, did not know” and carry on.

    4. TheAssistant*

      Ah, thank you all! I was definitely leaning heavily towards Not Censoring Pronouns because I’m not a big announcement-type person anyways, so this is perfect. Phew.

      I will go off and be excited about it on my own time :)

    5. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Just be chill. If your female SO comes up in casual conversation, just refer their name/gender the same as you would for a male SO. Treat it as a non-issue and it will generally be a nonissue.

      “What’re you doing this weekend?”
      “My girlfriend and I are gonna see a movie”
      Done.

    6. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Nonbinary AFAB married to a woman here!

      I wouldn’t make a big announcement either. Just don’t censor your date’s pronouns and feel as free as any other person to talk about your weekend plans.

      Then if people ask if you are bi, you can say yes. I’ve BEEN out at work for years, but never CAME out formally, because I am out by mentioning my wife.

    7. LizB*

      Another bi person here. However open you were about your dating life before at work, I’d just maintain that same standard. If you previously talked about your dates with men, continue to talk about your dates with women the same way — “I had a date with a super nice woman at that new Thai place, the food was really tasty!” or “Have you seen [movie]? My date took me last night, I loved it but she wasn’t so sold”. If you previously didn’t talk about your dates with men until you were in a serious-ish relationship, maintain that same standard with your dates with women. Basically, no need for a big announcement, but also no need to be more private about your dating life than you were in the past.

      I have a feeling your inclination towards making an announcement is because this is really new and exciting for you, which I get and it should be! It can be really thrilling to suddenly have a new world of dating opened up to you and maybe a new identity to explore, and it’s 100% normal to want to shout it from the rooftops*. But those conversations and that enthusiasm are best saved for friends and family. Maybe you have some good friends among your coworkers who you’ll naturally get into those conversations with because you’ve always discussed your romantic life with them, but Sam from Accounting who you only talk to once a month about expense reports doesn’t care about your private life any more than they did when you were only dating dudes. My suggestion is to find a group of queer friends (if you don’t have one already) and talk with them about coming-out stories and the excitement of dating ladies to your heart’s content.

      *It would also be equally normal to be a little freaked out and want to keep it very private, or to not know how the heck to feel, or pretty much any other reaction.

      1. TheAssistant*

        Thanks! This is great advice.

        I actually incline toward private, but my coworkers are quite share-y. Couple that with a recent date telling me I needed to invest in the emotional labor of coming out, and I just needed some sane advice about the whole thing.

        I definitely talked about dates before, so I’ll just keep that up and not shield the pronouns unnecessarily.

        2. Observer*

          I think I’d not have another date with that person. I mean, if you WANTED to come out, that would be one thing, but that’s not the case. People expecting you to do emotional labor for nebulous or “social justice” type reasons are often not terribly good relationship partners.

    8. Thlayli*

      I’d say just don’t censor yourself. It’s not really a big deal these days in a liberal environment so I don’t think you need to “come out” as such.

    9. Banana*

      I’ve kind of been struggling with this myself, because I’m an asexual person and it’s not like I can just mention the gender of the person I’m dating.

      In my very liberal workplace, people just mention their “partner” with “he” or “she” and leave it at that. No “coming out” necessary. If this makes someone do a double take, that’s their awkward to manage.

      1. Observer*

        The real question, I think, is whether there is any real advantage to you to being “OUT” as opposed to not being closeted.

  121. Tea Fish*

    I’m in the position of hiring a new team member for the first time, and I’m wondering– how much stock should I put into whether people send over updated resumes/personalized cover letters? We received a lot of applications and closed the job listing very quickly, so I understand why people might rush to send something in a hurry, but at the same time, seeing resumes containing clearly outdated information (references to past dates) and cover letters where people don’t even manage to edit the “Dear [Fill in the Blank]” leave me going “Hmmm…. maybe not.” If someone is perfectly qualified for the position and seems like a good fit otherwise, I may still contact them, but it’s also something that sticks in my mind. I’m pretty young myself but haven’t had to job search in a while– how reasonable am I being here?

    If it makes any difference, this is for an entry level position that pays reasonably well in a company that promotes internal growth, though candidates would not know that from the outside.

    1. TheAssistant*

      I wouldn’t look too closely at the resume being updated, but the Dear [fill in the blank] is a big negative for me, if only because the entry-level positions I fill when hiring basically require attention to detail above all else. I mean, things happen, and if the qualifications are otherwise in the top 5 or 10% of the pool, I’d consider doing a phone screen. But when I read a cover letter, I’m reading for attention to detail (are there typos? Did you talk about why my job specifically? Did you take an editing pass and clean up awkward sentences? Did you give me examples of attention to detail? Etc.)

      1. Tea Fish*

        Same deal here, unfortunately– this is a role involving a lot of data entry and an eye for precision and accuracy, it already gives me some pause as to whether or not this person can handle that.

    2. Kitkat*

      In my experience, good candidates usually submit solid resumes/cover letters. Not mindblowing necessarily, but solid.

      I had a similar reaction when I started doing entry level hiring, and I think you just have to adjust to the fact that you will get A LOT of applications from people applying to literally everything with no discrimination. Like for me, it was upwards of 70% where it was extremely clear they had no idea what they were applying for.

      I would bring in the few good ones, and then if they don’t pan out, start reaching out to your less stellar candidates.

      1. Tea Fish*

        That’s definitely true– I saw a lot of applications that were very ‘shotgunned’, and had one person just submit a picture of themselves in lieu of a resume. Thank you for your thoughts.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      If they seem strong I’d phone screen them. Sometimes I see job ads that leave me cold but I feel might have potential. If I’m not excited I don’t do much personalizing, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t get excited if I learned more and it seemed like a good opportunity.

  122. Lea*

    I’ll be long distance job searching (moving from Chicago to AZ) later this year and I was wondering if there’s a right timeframe to start applying for jobs? I’ll have a set date that I plan on moving there job or no job (but obviously would ideally like to have a job lined up first).

    How far in advance should I start looking since interviews will likely require a plane ride to get to, if it’s before my moving date?

    1. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      IDK if you’ll see this since it’s now Wednesday… but I’m doing a similar move (but from east coast to Chicago) in the beginning of August, and I was planning on starting in May (and starting my resume/cover letter/AAM reading in April). Might be more time than I need, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt considering that 3 months isn’t that long of a job search.

  123. librarylady*

    I’ve been a professional librarian for two years, and I recently quit my job to move across the country with my partner, who was offered a great job in his field. I’ve been looking/applying for months, but I haven’t yet been able to secure any employment in my new city. Library jobs are somewhat hard to come by, and I think the process will be easier once I’m actually living there. I do need to have some income, and I am totally fine with taking a little break from library work to do something different, as my last job was in a pretty difficult work environment. I also plan to volunteer in my field to keep my resume fresh.

    So, my somewhat naive question is: how does someone with very specific skills and education (BA in Women’s Studies, Master’s in Library Science) find work outside of their field? Do I just need to get a restaurant job while I wait for library work? I’ve been looking at professional/office-type job openings, but even entry level work seems to require skills/training/experience that I don’t have. Thoughts?

    1. Kitkat*

      I find it surprising that you feel like entry level postings include skills you don’t have, given your experience. I wonder if maybe you are seeing “1 year of experience with Salesforce” and not applying, when your experience with library databases would set you up super well to use Salesforce or other databases. (picking an example of something I’ve hired for.)

      Again, not sure what kind of positions you are looking at, but I would just go ahead and apply to that entry level office stuff and make the case for why you’d be good in your cover letter!

    2. TheAssistant*

      I think the best thing is to do a skills assessment of yourself. I don’t know a ton about library work, and I know it varies in a lot of ways, but I’m guessing you have research skills, database skills, etc. Look at your resume and try to place each bullet point in a very broad bucket (for instance, your skills assessment won’t have JSTOR listed, but it will have search engines. Or whatever’s relevant here!). Then when you have your buckets of skills, do a very large search of jobs with those buckets as key words (I like to set up one at a time on a LinkedIn job search so I get the most postings). And start filtering – years of experience, location, whatever. Click on any title that looks vaguely interesting and then you’ll get a great sense of what kinds of jobs you can reasonably do (and reasonably enjoy). That will help you focus your search.

      Also, do not forget that a kick-ass cover letter outlining how your previous experience relates to the job posting can go a long way. It is ultimately how I switched from fundraising admin to data analyst.

    3. Det. Charles Boyle*

      You can probably write and edit well, too — are you look for those types of jobs? Entry-level technical writers/editors can make a fairly good salary. I work in Proposals, and we’re always looking for people who can write, edit, and format in MS Word.

    4. Alex*

      I would recommend staffing companies. They can assess your skills and find a position that works. And if it’s terrible, you can just request a new assignment.

  124. Kitkat*

    Any advice/perspectives/mantras when working with coworkers who struggle with technology? I’m in a role that’s not computer-heavy, but we do need to do basic stuff like any 21st century job. A few of my coworkers are hardcore bad with computers, and I struggle with keeping my tone light and judgement free when showing them how to send an email with an attachment or create a new tab in Excel. I’m 20 years younger than most and definitely do not want to be the obnoxious millennial…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Perspective: not only are you valuable because you know these things, if you can explain them in ways that your coworkers will pick up quickly, you have an aptitude for training, and that’s a very valuable skill in almost any industry! It’s great to be known as the Luddite Whisperer! :D

    2. Mockingjay*

      Point them to training resources: wikis, lynda.com, youtube videos, help desk. Repeat. (And repeat. And repeat.) But don’t waste your time training them yourself.

      I have the same issue with my engineering project team. Except I am the oldest on the team (Boomer here) and most of the others are millennials or Gen X. We also have a couple of Gen Y. We’re in a high-tech, IT-heavy industry, so their inability to upload a single file to the SharePoint server or to use the preformatted document template (just fill in the text, fer cripes’ sake!) baffled the sh*t out me.

      I finally realized they focus solely on what they love – their engineering work. They don’t grasp the rest because they simply aren’t interested and tune it out.

    3. Sabrina Spellman*

      I would like to know this too because I’m currently working with someone who is around my own age but struggles with simple technology

    4. Ron McDon*

      If this comes up a lot, would it be worth creating a document showing how to do these things?

      I’ve created such sheets for my Dad (80 years old and learned how to use email, eBay, Facebook etc), sometimes just written step-by-steps, sometimes with screenshots.

      I get it’s a pain to do, but if you have multiple people asking for multiple different things it would be worth doing and would be more time-effective in the long run.

  125. Pass the Vodka*

    Why are projects that are favors for the friends of our directors so much more hassle than actual clients with actual money? You’re a friend and this you’re getting something for free, stop being a pain in the butt about it! Even my boss said not to bend over backwards too much for you but you’re the biggest headache I’ve had all week!

    1. WellRed*

      For the same reason retail customers or restaurant goers who are the biggest pains spend the least and tip the worst.

  126. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    Y’all. Y’all. Y’ALL: Mr. Death Rides GOT A JOB.
    Yes, after nine months, HE GOT A POSITION!!!!! It’s IT support for a series of local newspapers.
    Pardon me, I’m off to sing “Easy Street” from the musical “Annie.” Be right back…

  127. AnonyMouse*

    I’ve been waiting for the open thread this week! So I’ve been posting on here about my job search (last we I asked for advice on staying motivated when you’re actively trying to leave/burnt out. A lot of the advice was super helpful, so thank you all!

    I’m excited to announce that I’ve been invited back for a second round interview next week for a position I’m really hopeful about! The location is ideal (would bring me ~20 minutes away from my family where as now I’m about ~1 hr 20 minutes) and it’s a very different position from the one I have now, so I’m excited about possibly being able to develop some new transferrable skills.

    The only problem is that the start date might not line up with what I can reasonably offer. The way my current organization writes our contracts is that they can technically require us to stay longer than the standard two weeks notice (it sounds like 30 days is the norm, sometimes longer for internal transfers). This would put me not being able to leave until about mid- to late- April (possibly as late as May), when the new position said they’d ideally like someone starting in mid- to late- March. Has anyone experienced something like this before? How did you handle it?

    1. o.b.*

      You can either wait til the interview or the offer, but just be upfront about it—”my current contract requires 30 day notice, so I wouldn’t be available to start until 30 days after an offer.” Totally normal. Most (not all) positions will accommodate this; if they can’t, they can’t, but it won’t reflect poorly on you either way.

      I’m actually a little confused about how much notice they require—if it’s ‘up to 30 days but possibly just 2 weeks, we won’t know til you give notice’ I would disclose your required notice period as 30 days, and if you wind up needing less than that, take the remaining 2 weeks off :) If it’s ‘up to 30 days but possibly longer,’ that’s … tricky, and I have no advice unfortunately.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I talked to another coworker who has been here longer than me, and they said that what they’ve seen most frequently with our division is more of an “up to 30 days” situation. Technically the way our contracts are written I think it’s within their power to ask us to provide more notice, but they’ve only ever seen this happen with someone who got hired into another department internally. They said they don’t think it’s likely I’d be asked for more than 30 days notice because I’m only looking at external positions.

    2. Betsy*

      Congratulations on your interview!

      I don’t have any advice, but I’m in the same position. I have an interview, but I don’t think I’d be able to start until early May. I’m thinking of bringing this up during the interview. They will expect me to be give four weeks notice in my previous position, because that’s standard here, but this will definitely be more than four weeks.

      I’ll be interested to see what other people have to say.

  128. DMLT*

    Had to laugh this week, because my organization rolled out a new app for us to be able to upload our current certifications and continuing ed certifications more easily and simply by doing it digitally.
    So when I renewed one certification at work this week, I learned that now that we have an app, the new process is this:
    Complete the continuing ed certification on the computers at work.
    Call HR and ask them to print the certificate.
    Go down to HR to pick up the paper certificate. (and since I work evenings, this involves an extra daytime trip when HR is open)
    Use app to take a photo and upload the certificate.

    Gosh, this is SO MUCH EASIER than just having it marked completed in the computer and getting the certificate emailed to me as a PDF.

    BECAUSE ITS AN APP!!!!! And apps are cool! And modern! And easy!

    A coworker tells me there’s no way to upload a PDF so she had to print one of hers, take a photo and upload that photo. Her photo of the computer screen was rejected.

    What “streamlined process” has made you roll your eyes lately?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Sounds like e-invoicing. I thought, originally, how nice. I don’t email them or anything, I just enter the info.

      Actually though, what I do is create an invoice, email it to someone for coding, eventually get a PDF back with a bunch of numbers, upload the PDF, re-enter all the items and pricing on the invoice, try and figure out which of the numbers I’ve been given is the AFE and which is the Cost Code and why I’ve been given 18 LSDs, get it wrong a few times, realize that they screwed up their own numbers and it won’t go through, eventually get it sorted out, and then have it be rejected a month later because I forgot to enter the line numbers. -_-

    2. Sabrina Spellman*

      We use specific travel agencies to book hotels, flights, etc. when travelling for business. This summer an email was sent out saying we’d be transitioning to a new company with more details to come. No new details were sent out. I went to the department’s page on our intraweb and there’s just a link to a portal where a login is required. Hm…

      1. Earthwalker*

        I might know that system. It comes with no user instructions and is quite unintuitive. You log in and it says “You are not authorized,” so you call all over to find who supports the system (hint: the IT help desk has never heard of it.) To approve the trip it needs the e-signature of a manager to whom it cannot send an approval request. You get that sorted out, go, and come back with a handful of receipts. It won’t let you attach line items to the trip record until the tech reconfigures it. It requires that you scan each little sale slip into a separate file, mail it into the system, and attach it to the coded line item that you create for that meal or taxi or whatever. You get it all done and hit send and it fails because you didn’t attach the airline receipt, which you never saw because the flight was centrally billed. So you need the tech involved again to make a special exception for your case, even though it’s a company rule that all air travel is always centrally billed. Why do you do this? Because it’s faster and easier.

    3. LAI*

      Haha, my organization transitioned to a new scheduling tool which was custom designed for us and I’m sure cost thousands of dollars. When asked for feedback, I provided a side-by-side comparison of the 6 steps in our old system and the 13 steps in the new system, as well as pointing out each of the several steps that caused the user to have to start over. They stubbornly insisted on using it for a year before admitting that it was terrible. But we also couldn’t go back to our old system, so now we do it on paper.

  129. Laura in NJ*

    I’ve got a question about employment agencies that don’t respond. I emailed one about joining them on 2/6 and have had no response whatsoever (no calls, emails, snail mail, pigeon carriers). Should I try again or find an agency that actually responds to inquiries?

  130. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Just a comment. I’ve been at new job long enough to realize a couple things.

    1. They had a period of REALLY BAD management. Like, old #1 person left and the new #1 fired half the management team. Literally, half of them. Plus a bunch of non-mgmt people.
    2. Probably as a result of the mgmt issues, they’ve had really high turnover. Something like 15-25% over 2-3 years is normal. They’re around 50-60%.
    3. As a result of all this turmoil, the department (internal audit) has taken a massive hit in reputation within the company. It’s an actual problem in fact because the business owners don’t trust the dept to know what they’re doing.
    4. In reaction, the dept appears to be swinging towards the extreme end of “you must appear to be confident and know exactly what you’re doing at all times, no matter what”. Which, I get it, but it’s possible to take this too far. It’s a little hard to tell, but they appear to be applying this standard to a point where it’s actually going to cause problems, if it hasn’t already. It is actually counterproductive if you punish new staff from being open about being new and thus not knowing something.

    Good news is I have mgmt who specifically state that they want me to succeed, etc. Great. But either they allow me the slack to pick up the methodology as I encounter it, or they need to do some intensive, deliberate training. And this didn’t occur to them until almost 2 months in.

    So, I’m keeping an eye on things. They’re in the recovery period essentially. Good news is, the pay is excellent, the PTO is better (not that I’m using it yet, still too new. But I will be.)

  131. LizB*

    Scariest part of the week: I had an annual performance review with one of my newest staff, who had rated herself super high on her self-evaluation. The top of our rating scale is very rarely used, and is for people who made major innovations or really took on leadership beyond what their position requires, and she rated herself with it in several categories. Her work is good but not OMG AMAZING, she hasn’t really gone above and beyond her role in any big way, and she’s only been with us four months. I rated her at the rating that means “you’re doing what we want you to be doing!” for most things and “you’re still learning” in a couple things, so there were BIG disparities between some of her ratings and my ratings. I was worried she’d take it badly, but I think she understood that I’m not at all unhappy with her work, she just still has growing to do, and there are lots of things she can do to move towards a higher rating for next year.

    1. SharedDriveUser*

      One of my subordinates also rated herself as Outstanding because …. drum roll …. and again …. she printed the ‘how to apply for this’ explanation on different colored paper each month “to keep it fresh”. Cute idea, except we had folks coming in demanding the pink form , refusing to believe the current green or orange or blue or lavender, etc. form is the same one, with several going all the way up the ladder to the CEO to demand we standardize the form . And she didn’t understand why CEO-level complaints indicated her great idea didn’t work.

  132. Merula*

    I have a question about where to draw the line in answers to interview questions. I’m interviewing for summer interns for my company, and I have a set list of questions I have to ask everyone. One of these is a creative-thinking problem about designing a solution for people to find housing.

    One answer I received to this went into gathering information on the people who needed housing, like their interests, or if they were “from diverse backgrounds”, and matching them to housing that fit those characteristics.

    Ignoring the “diverse backgrounds” piece, the answer was moderately good, but I feel like a college sophomore or junior should be aware of housing non-discrimination laws and not suggest a creative solution that would blatantly violate those laws. Is that beyond what should reasonably be expected of college students, particularly when the question isn’t trying to actually come up with a housing solution but to see their though process? Am I being too harsh?

    If it makes a difference, my industry is in no way associated with providing housing to people, but we are in a fairly heavily-regulated sector where there are plenty of things that could seem like a good idea from a customer-service standpoint that would not be allowed because of the laws and regulations we’re subject to.

    1. Emi.*

      I wouldn’t come down on this too hard, especially on a college student, since some colleges have “Africana Heritage” or “Asian American Student Association” or whatever dorms (and you have historically black Greek houses).

      (“A solution for people to find housing” sounds to me like a third-party search function like WalkScore, and it wouldn’t have occurred to me that it would be illegal to let people search for “I don’t want all my neighbors to be white” along with “I don’t want to need a car.” I presume it was clearer in the actual exercise, but maybe that’s the lines they were thinking along—as something the searchers would want.)

    2. The Other Dawn*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t expect anyone outside of a heavily regulated industry to know about these things, especially not students. I’m in banking and even though we have lots of training around all the different regulations, most people wouldn’t know about regulations surrounding housing discrimination unless they are involved in a department that deals with loans and housing.

    3. LCL*

      You are being too harsh. Unless they work in the housing or law industry or have a special interest in this area, most people think housing discrimination = refusing to sell someone a house because of their race. I know it’s not that simple, but that’s how most people see it. If you want to ask an open ended question, ask about something that isn’t heavily regulated.

    4. Thlayli*

      It’s not illegal everywhere and in every situation. Where I live it’s completely legal to refuse to let to someone on the basis of their gender or race or religion if you will be living with them (though not if you’re a commercial landlord). We also have specific types of government housing provided for a specific sector of society that takes into account their culture.

      It’s not like people are born knowing this is illegal in your specific location. Why would she know unless she works in the industry?

      I think the bigger question is why are you asking people to do a task for an interview that apparently has nothing to do with the job?

    5. DMLT*

      You’re going to TRAIN them and TEACH them these regulations, right? So why would you penalize them for not knowing the regulations in an industry *unrelated to yours*?

      I’m a bit baffled by your question.

    6. HannahS*

      I wouldn’t expect them to know it, especially because students often find housing by posting on social media groups with things like, “Searching for kosher female to take fifth bedroom in an all-female student house.” In fact, I saw that post this week! The difference between “We’re looking for a Jewish, kosher-observant roommate” and “We’re looking for a kosher-obesrvant roommate” is subtle and is lost on a lot of people. Part of learning how to operate in these industries is learning the specific laws that apply in different situations, so yeah, I think you’re being too harsh.

    7. Too close to home*

      It’s understandable to me that they wouldn’t be aware of these regulations. They’ve probably never had to find their own housing, for one thing.

    8. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Most of them probably wouldn’t be aware of it. I know I learned a bit about the existence of these non-discrimination laws in high school, but my high school was unusual in that respect; most of my friends in college, for example, didn’t know about them.

  133. AnonyMouse*

    So I just tried to submit a post but I don’t think it went through… Sorry if this appears twice!

    So last week I posted about how to stay motivated when you’re actively looking/burnt out (and got lots of helpful advice, so thank you!). This week I wanted to come here to share I’ve been invited back for a second round interview for a position I’m really hopeful for! It’s a lot closer to my family and very different from what I’m doing now. The thing I’m worried about is there may be a mismatch with start date :( The new position stated that their ideal candidate would be able to start mid- to late- March. Unfortunately, my current organization has a clause in our contracts where they can require more than two weeks notice (it sounds like 30 days is standard). So there’s a good chance I may not be able to start something new until mid- to late- April (possibly early May). Has anyone else had something like this happen? How did you handle it? I plan to ask about flexibility with start date in the interview.

  134. Incantanto*

    Is it normal for companies run by family members to use family titles between them/ in email.

    I work at a small, thirty person, company, where everybody uses first names. The company was owned by two men, one of which has died and his son and wife are coming in and taking that part.
    The son calls the other ownet “uncle” in emails, despite not actually being related, and refers to his mother as mum, etc. Others in the family (c1/4) of the company are related to a boss also use family names.
    It makes me feel a bit of an outsider. Is this a normal thing?

    1. Antilles*

      It’s a thing. It probably *shouldn’t* be, since it can very easily imply a clear distinction between Family and Outsiders, but it’s fairly common.
      Personally, I wouldn’t make a deal of the names specifically, but instead keep an eye out to see how they treat non-family members in general. If they’re still treating you fairly and equally despite the fact you’re not part of the clan, you can probably just write this off as a quirk – no different than how old friends might call each other by a nickname at work.
      But if the uncle/mom/etc names are part of a larger pattern, you probably want to seriously consider how the dynamic might affect you.

  135. Happy Family Facade*

    My relatively new job (under a year) is the odd (but not unusual) combination of incredibly overworked and understaffed yet piling onto that meetings and group activities claimed to be bonding excercises.

    We are hitting the point where there are multiple potluck type parties a month & (a few?) weekly getting to know you/recognition sessions – all of which already cut into our overbooked schedules and tight deadlines.

    Oh yeah – open office (the switch came after I accepted the job) so nearly impossible to avoid. This is all frankly exhausting for me.

    One of the new activities will be bringing in baby pictures (as in everyone bring in multiple baby pictures of yourself) and displaying and writing details about growing up.

    Anyone else have experience with this type of dominating situation (loads of work-understaffed-but hey let’s have some forced goodwill that actually adds tasks)?

    Maybe some actually enjoy this?

    1. Jujubes*

      Out of curiosity, do you work in higher education? Pretty much everything you described sounds like the typical entry level work environment for higher education.

  136. Interjecting Coworker*

    I have a coworker who has a habit of jumping in halfway through a conversation. I know he’s just trying to be helpful, and sometimes he has good input, but often it just results in having to re-explain things, often things we just talked about a minute earlier before he jumped in. Conversations that should just be quick updates end up being long discussions where we have to explain every past decision before moving on. It makes every conversation unnecessarily longer and is starting to get really frustrating. Any advice on how to quickly shut him down? He has the cube right next to me and I can’t just start never talking to anyone at my desk.

  137. Koivu*

    Hey y’all! I need your best advice about being the new boss/having a new boss. I’m starting with a new company as a division head next week and want to make sure I get off to a great start with the team. What is the best thing your new boss/manager did the first couple of weeks? New bosses – how did you approach getting to know your team and the lay of the land? For some reason, I’m so nervous and need all the good mojo I can get :)

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Some things I wish my new boss WOULD do (and perhaps she still might): sit down with each of us 1:1 to learn more about our individual work, what challenges we face, what kind of support we are hoping to get from her, what things work really well and what things could be improved. Start getting to know the team as a whole as well as the each person individually, and talk about what you hope the future of the team will look like. I wasn’t involved in my boss’s hiring process, so I’d love the chance to get to know more about her, her experience, and her management style.

    2. Kathenus*

      I like to do something I call ‘Three Wishes’. Ask people to come up with 2-3 things that they would like to do or change – within current resources (staffing, budget, etc.) – understanding that there’s no guarantee they can all be accommodated. Sometimes you find some easy wins that you have the power to approve, that give a little morale boost. I also try to talk about what my management style is (or at least what I hope it will be), what they can expect from me, what I expect from them. It’s been a useful discussion in some positions when starting with a new team.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Best thing: met with all of us 1:1 and got to know us. On the flip side I once had a boss who didn’t even speak to any of us for the first few weeks which was so weird.

    4. Wrench Turner*

      In all serious, read the Art of War by Sun Tzu and take its ancient advice to heart: To be a good General (or boss), be transparent about your expectations and what is to be rewarded and punished. Reward and punish freely, fairly and without hesitation. Watch for spies and manipulate them to your advantage if you can. The best leaders work hard but look like they have done nothing, and their people see success and think ‘we did this ourselves’.

      The other piece of advice I heard from a US Marine: Be polite, be professional, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

      You got this.

  138. Perpetuum Mobile*

    Hi All,

    I will be heading out for my first formal face to face interview with the hiring manager for a particular job in a couple of hours.

    Quick question that may come across as silly: should I button my suit jacket and leave it buttoned throughout the whole interview, or is it ok to wear it unbuttoned? For what it’s worth, it’s a formal black fine Italian wool skirt suit that I will pair with a silk lemon yellow top. Unbuttoned helps with the freedom of movements but I heard that to make the best first impression and to steer on the side of caution it’s better to wear it buttoned up. Thoughts? Thanks much!

    2. Emi.*

      I would unbutton it as you sit down, and re-button it as you stand up. Don Draper does this every. single. time. he sits or stands and it looks super sharp.

    3. Jujubes*

      For context to my response, I’m female. But I’ve almost never buttoned my suit jacket, I leave it unbuttoned regardless of sitting or standing. I think the “unbutton as you sit, button when you stand” rule applies more to men.

  139. Shiny Door Knob*

    How would you handle a situation like this if it were you? A good friend of mine just lost her job in the most bizarre turn of events. I honestly told her to speak with a lawyer because I am baffled. My friend is in her mid-20s, has a boyfriend and a toddler. She had worked at her current job (now ex-job) for about two years. When she started, a guy close to her in age started at the same time and they were in the same new hire training group and became friends. This guy has always seemed to be into her, but my friend has always been respectful and not flirtatious or anything. She is in a happy, healthy relationship and not interested in losing that. Despite her best efforts to curtail gossip in the office, people still talk as if she and her male coworker are an item because they occasionally have lunch or chat in the break room. Last week, she got a call on her cell and stepped outside to take it. She received news that her aunt had passed and she was outside crying. She was in the courtyard that is near one of the office’s conference room windows. The guy coworker must have seen her crying through the window from a meeting and rushed out to check on her. My friend was upset and then flabbergasted when the guy dramatically grabbed her face and started kissing her. She immediately pushed him away and slapped him and stalked off toward the ladies room to compose herself. Several people in the conference room witnessed what happened and my friend immediately tore the guy a new one before going to HR and reporting him. She and the guy BOTH got fired for misconduct. The HR rep told her that the rumors had gotten to be too much and that it had been affecting her appearance within the company since she had started despite her work being great and never receiving any formal warnings or write ups or disciplinary action. My friend was shocked and tried to discuss matters with HR, but they turned her away and had her escorted out. She was humiliated. She has never had a thing with her coworker. She found out a few days later from another colleague that her male coworker had been telling other males in the office about their “sexual escapades,” which are all false. She is livid and no one from HR will lend an ear. What say you?

      1. Shiny Door Knob*

        What should see say to any possible new employers while interviewing? She is stumped as to how to explain why she left her last job.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Lawyer up. What the highers learn that someone was fired for being the victim of persistent sexual harassment and sexual assault, they’ll want to correct things I imagine.

    5. zora*

      What the FFFFFF!?!????? That is bull, HR is totally screwing this up, and she should definitely talk to a lawyer ASAP!

    6. Anonymous Ampersand*

      Lawyer!! That is bloody awful.

      I would also get the lawyer to send a letter to the guy telling him to stop lying but I don’t know if that’s really the right thing to say. :(

    7. Natalie*

      Uh, that company’s HR department needs to go back to HR department school. And she should definitely file for unemployment and speak with an attorney.

    8. WellRed*

      Lawyer! This seems like it would fall under sexual harrassment, which is not legal. I wouldn’t expect her to get her job back, though, if that’s what she is hoping.

      1. Natalie*

        Yeah, personally I would probably not want my job back, but a lawyer could negotiate both a monetary settlement and a neutral or positive reference.

    9. ContentWrangler*

      Sometimes the comments on this site jump too quickly to lawyers – this is NOT one of those times! Your friend was essentially fired for being sexually assaulted (grabbing her and kissing her without consent). She needs to talk to a lawyer ASAP. Those HR employees should be fired for incompetence.

      1. Short & Dumpy*

        I jumped to “assault” over “harassment” too…I wonder if it would be worth filing a police report as well as contacting the attorney? (or at least ask the attorney if it’s worth filing an assault report?) I wouldn’t expect the police to do much about it (at least not around here where most of the police depts are themselves under investigation for encouraging that type of behavior) but at least then it’s on record and might be a serious wake-up call to HR.

      2. AF*

        She was assaulted, she should go to the police and press charges. Even if it doesn’t help with the job thing, she was professionally friendly to him, and he interpreted that as a chance to claim they were having sex and then grab and kiss her.

        He is a dangerous person and your friend is in danger. She needs to file a police report ASAP and make sure they know the full story. He may turn into a stalker.

    10. Close Bracket*

      > her male coworker had been telling other males in the office about their “sexual escapades,” which are all false.

      I’m pretty sure this constitutes a hostile work environment, even if she didn’t know about until after she was fired. What is her end game? Does she just want her side of the story to be known? Does she want her job back? Does she want not to be maligned when future employers call for a reference? The answer will determine whether its worth her time to go to a lawyer.

      Letters from lawyers tend to get responses, that is for sure.

  140. How Long to Wait for Follow-Up, Part II*

    Along the lines of the letter earlier this week, I’m hoping for insight into a “How long is a reasonable amount of time to wait before I should expect to hear back?” situation.

    I just got a TT job at a university, which is thrilling, and I was lucky that it’s a university in the same state where I finished grad school – as a result, my husband can stay in his job, and look for a new gig from his current role. BUT, the university is far enough way that we have to have separate residences, and living in the middle doesn’t make anything more feasible.

    In October, my university posted a position that mirrors my husband’s current role, down to the job title. He had a phone interview and two (!) all-day (!), in person interviews, the last of which was the first week of December.

    They told him throughout the process that it was between him and one other person, but that they were not urgent about filling the position – they would whenever the person currently in the role leaves, anticipating sometime during this spring semester, maybe as late as May.

    Well, the person in the role left in January. My husband has heard nothing from HR since his last follow-up/thank you email back in the first week of December. Radio silence. Spousal hire isn’t the issue here; there are umpteen other couples on staff and the university has a commitment to families. We know, obviously, there has to be something going on behind the scenes but . . .

    I’m really miffed! This isn’t just any employer ghosting my husband, it’s MY employer. We have done our darndest to move past it after the last interview and proceed with the assumption that he’s not getting an offer, but I am really annoyed that they haven’t bothered to reject him formally, or let him know that there’s been a hold up and to hang tight, nothing. It just feels especially strange because everyone involved–including the university president–knows that he is the spouse of a faculty member.

    I know that there’s nothing I can do; I wouldn’t ever say anything to HR (but I do daydream that I could drop just the right hint to just the right person that we haven’t heard anything and it’s really impacting my job satisfaction) or my department chair or anything like that. At this point, though, is there anything HE can do? He says that the last communication made it clear that they are keeping the ball in their court, so he feels uncomfortable sending another email, and I get that. Thoughts?

    1. DhP*

      This sounds very, very normal for academia. I don’t think there’s anything to be done – they’ve made it clear they’re not in a hurry to fill this position. Let it go, move on, and try to forget about it. And try really hard not to let it affect how you do your own job.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I have with DhP. Academic hiring is.. stupid, frustratingly slow and super competitive. You just have to let it go. It is not personal.

        I would not send another email. I would proceed as though he has not gotten the job and keep looking.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        I agree with DhP. Academic hiring is.. stupid, frustratingly slow and super competitive. You just have to let it go. It is not personal.

        I would not send another email. I would proceed as though he has not gotten the job and keep looking.

    2. Fellow academic*

      Honestly, academic hiring (if it’s anything like my university!) can be incredibly slow and frustrating, especially for non-faculty positions. They tend to roll out the red carpet for TT-hires, but office assistants / support roles / anything else can drag on with no notice. I think that your husband has done all he can for now except mentally move on. I would try to see it as a quirk of how universities in general do business instead of as a slight by your own university.

    3. LAI*

      Honestly, a month is not that long to have not heard anything (you said the person left in January, and it’s now just mid-February). I don’t get it personally, but this is how academia works. I have been the person leading a hiring committee, asking every week if we are cleared to go ahead with making our offer, reminding higher-ups that that every day we wait increases the chances that our top pick will accept an offer somewhere else. In one extreme case, we held interviews in January and didn’t make offers until July – I know, it’s ridiculous. Some offices are just incredibly slow about this kind of thing. It could be uncertainty about the budget, it could be internal restructuring and politics, it could just be that the person who you need approval from is impossible to pin down. I know it’s frustrating but I would try not to hold it against the university if you can, because this is just so completely normal for higher ed. You’re going to continue to see this kind of thing everywhere.

    4. fposte*

      I really don’t want to steer you wrong on this, but in my unit it would actually be kosher to mention this to the department chair (or in my case the dean). Do you have a senior faculty mentor that you could ask about this?

      1. LAI*

        I agree with fposte that it wouldn’t be totally out of line to ask the department chair. But it should be more of a “have you heard any updates about this position?” kind of ask, not a “why is this taking so long?” ask.

  141. Roja*

    For those of you in academia, here’s a question. There’s an adjunct posting in my field at a college nearby that’s been open for months. I think they’re having difficulty finding people, as I don’t guess there are many people in this area with a master’s in this field who are only looking for adjunct work. My field is pretty poorly represented locally. I graduate with my master’s next January… is it worth applying, do you think?

    1. Snark*

      That’s a ways in the future. I’d apply, but make it really clear when your credentials will meet the requirements – “MA, Lllamaology (expecten Jan 2019” or something. Academic hiring takes approximately one day of Brahma, and if you’re in demand they might be willing to wait, so I think it’s worth a shot.

      1. Roja*

        It technically is, but if they’re hiring for September/fall semester, then it’s a single semester. I didn’t apply this past academic year because I figured eh, too far off, but now… and yeah, expected grad date will definitely be crystal clear.

    2. Yorick*

      You should apply, but some departments always keep the adjunct position open in the system. So it may be that they don’t actually need anyone soon.

    4. Sabrina Spellman*

      I work in higher ed and we occasionally have adjuncts who are still in the master’s program teach at the undergraduate level. Give it a shot!

    5. Betsy*

      I’d give it a go. Sometimes positions are flexible. We had a meeting recently where we decided if we would hire people who were still completing PhDs for a position we needed to fill, even though in our last round of hiring we were looking for only people with completed PhDs. It’s one of those things that seems to sometimes be decided on in a pretty arbitrary fashion.

  142. Meg*

    Any tips for writing a cover letter to my current boss, for a sort of promotion sort of new job?

    Backstory…my department has a newly created position that we’re hiring for. I helped create the job description, and my boss has essentially told me I will be getting the job. The job posting was circulated to the whole staff (about 50 people), and I have to give my boss a cover letter and updated resume, and then have “a conversation” about it. I’ve directly been told that this is a formality, that they have to make me do this because they make other people do it, and there won’t be any other applicants. My boss told me to not spend more than 10 minutes on the resume update, and not a lot of time on the cover letter, but I still want to write a good one haha. Any tips?

    1. Flinty*

      I was in that exact position once! (told I had the job, but needed to formally apply)

      I actually found it easier to write than a normal cover letter, since in writing about why the position is a good fit for me, I could go into more detail about my projects and use more specific terminology than if I was writing for a person who knew nothing about my work.

      But basically I picked my 2-3 biggest accomplishments and skills and wrote about how they would set me up for success in the new position.

  143. StaceyMcGill*

    Has anyone successfully asked for a demotion? I was promoted into a management position last year, and it is such a poor match for me and causes a ton of stress and anxiety. I am so much happier as an individual contributor than as a manager. I would feel terrible leaving my boss in a bind, but I really don’t think I can do this much longer.

    1. Hellanon*

      I’ve done that! I went in to my grandboss & said, hey, look, this is really not working out, for me or anyone else, and I would really like to go back to teaching, where my skills are a better fit. It worked out well – I got what I wanted, and he got to promote the (ghastly & toxic) person who’d been gunning for me into the management position she wanted. She proceeded to lay waste to the department and generated several hostile-workplace lawsuits, but there was no changing his mind, and I was just glad to be out of the line of fire. (This is maybe more than you needed to know? The TL:DR is to frame it in a way that it meets business needs as well, and that’s to emphasize the importance of the individual contributor role.)

    2. Short & Dumpy*

      Not personally, but I worked with someone who did. It was actually a HUGE relief for management. They had been struggling with what to do about him because it was clear he wasn’t doing well in the higher position but they 1) were worried demoting him would make for a lot of resentment & difficulties for whoever replaced him and 2) knew he had been a stellar employee for a long time before the promotion and felt they owed him time to adjust.

      I’d start with a low-key conversation that your concerned that this may not have been a good match after all and see what type of response you get.

      1. Thlayli*

        I also worked with a guy who did this. He was an amazing engineer but An awful manager. He recognised it himself. They transitioned him into an “expert” role so I don’t think it was technically a demotion, and one of his team members got the management job and everything worked better.

  144. Thrud*

    I am in the checking references phase of hopefully being offered a new position. One of my references is a former coworker from my current position, whom I supervised until she was promoted to a position co-equal with mine.

    My current workplace is beyond toxic, my primary reason for leaving – and the reason my coworker left. I of course mentioned none of this during any of the (4!) interviews for the new position. My reference just called to say they had spoken to her, and that she had sung my praises AND told them all about how toxic my current workplace is.

    Am I likely to be dinged by my reference’s willingness to badmouth my current employer?

  145. Performance Review*

    My performance review is coming up with my new (and awesome) manager who has been here since October of last year. While she is overall very pleased with my work, I think I’ve presented somewhat of a bad attitude and I’m wondering if I should acknowledge it in my performance review?

    One part is that I had to follow up with her about a raise and promotion that was talked about before she joined. The raise took such a long time to get approved that I’ve lost a good amount of money and the title is help up for reasons that aren’t quite clear to me. This conversation started over a year ago when my previous manager said he was working on a raise and promotion for me and I’m pretty frustrated at this point that I’m told I’m valued but little is being down to actually show that.

    The second part is due to some of my coworker’s unsatisfactory skills, I’ve voiced a number of concerns that needed to be addressed. This was not always in a professional manner and while nothing was said in a terribly rude way, I’m disappointed in myself how I’ve let my professionalism slip (the number of things that needed significant attention has also caused my manager’s professionalism to slip quite a bit as a reference).

    I’m worried that I have come off as a complainer or something. Should I say something about it? Something along the lines of I’m worried I’ve given the wrong impression and that I’m very happy with the direction she is taking things.

    1. fposte*

      If you like your manager, make it a question rather than a concern. “I’m very happy with the direction we’re going but I know some of the stuff along the way was bumpy–is there feedback you’d like to give me about how I handled some of that stuff this year, like issues with Co-worker?”

    2. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t volunteer it at first. See if it comes up, and then respond to it. You can add at the end that you have high standards and add what you said here about being happy about the new direction.

    3. Kathenus*

      No one right or wrong answer on this one. If it was me I would acknowledge it – something along the lines of realizing that I had let frustration affect the way I handled some issues and that I was working to improve professionalism in this area going forward. For me as a manager, I’d appreciate that self-insight. You could follow it up with mentioning that you’re very happy with the direction she’s taking, as you mentioned, and that you are looking forward to working together going forward, or something like that.

  146. Em.*

    This week I made the decision to go from “casually” looking for employment elsewhere to “actively”–on Wednesday I tried to make an appointment with a therapist, and when they were verifying my health insurance I was showing up as having no coverage. I spoke with our rep and apparently the premium payment was sent in late, so the entire company is currently experiencing a gap in coverage. Worst case, my boss knew and didn’t say anything to anyone, which is extremely shady, best case, it’s a matter of things slipping through the cracks and a huge red flag. I’ve been here for 2.5 years and I’ve loved it and the people I work with, but lately I’ve worried about not having any opportunity for advancement and also things like this showing there are some things severely wrong with the company.

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Sounds like you made a smart decision! That doesn’t sound like the sort of company you want to stay with.

  147. Alys*

    I’ve applied for a supervisor position within my current department. What sort of questions should I expect in the interview?

    1. MommaChem*

      Having been interviewed myself and having interviewed others for internal promotions to a supervisor, one of the big questions should be about how you plan to transition from being peoples’ peer to bring their boss. If it’s a new role to the company, you may be asked what you envision for the position. If it’s a previously existing role, you may be asked what you plan to do differently than your predecessor.

      Your best bet for any of these questions is to take what you know if the department and use it to your advantage. “I would like to direct more resources to spout design because that’s where 85% of our teapot complaints originate.” “I plan to use Katelyn as my primary trainer because she is the best at communicating procedures to junior teapot testers.” (This can be especially helpful if you know Katelyn is also interviewing. It recognizes a talent in someone else and shows that you want to utilize them best for the company.)

      Good luck!

  148. NoodleMara*

    Anyone have USPS not deliver overnight envelopes? We’re trying to move for my job and sent the security deposit to the rental via overnight and it seems like it has disappeared again. We voided the first check. Tracking lists some stops and then it never updated again.

    This is driving me nuts.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      Yes, and FedEx and UPS too. They all fail at some point. We are not even heavy users. Maybe one or two a week. I had a UPS disappear between two “bins” at their sorting facility (Kentucky?) for 2 weeks. It was only a $100K check….

    2. Antilles*

      I haven’t, but one related item I have had trouble with for the post service: Check the address, as sometimes apartment complexes have odd addresses for their office.
      For example, in my complex, the street address is 123 Teapot Terrace Lane, despite the fact that every single apartment is 201 Teapot Terrace, 202 Teapot Terrace, and so on. So if you send something to the office labeled “123 Teapot Terrace”, it ends up never arriving because they don’t know what to do with it.

    3. Amber Rose*

      They’re all terrible. All of them. Dealing with shipping companies is our shipper’s worst nightmare.

      I sent a huge, 50LB package on Greyhound to a customer who needed it urgently, and they gave it to some random person! The customer was seriously not impressed. Also I’m wondering who has these things and what they think they’re gonna do with them.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve had better luck with FedEx for really important stuff, but even they mess up sometimes.

      Once somebody was supposed to mail us a check at TestingLabJob via USPS and we never got it, so we kept dunning them for the payment. They kept insisting they had paid it, but it never showed up, so they said they were cancelling their first check and sent us another. Months later, the check showed up — it had been accidentally rerouted to Hawaii! (We were in Missouri.) I have no fricking idea how that happened.

  149. Regular going undercover for Reasons*

    I wish I could post this under my regular name but it’s not totally signed sealed and delivered yet.

    We’re having a restructure in work and it seemed that my job was disappearing. Then it was put back at a higher grade but I couldn’t be given the job at the higher grade. Well, my job has been regraded, so I am now the right grade to get it.

    There are still no guarantees that I’ll actually get my job as the higher grade: it’s not exactly the same but pretty close. But I’ve never been promoted or regraded before, I’ve always left a job to get a better salary. So I’m really really chuffed with myself :D

    2. Samata*

      Congrats and good luck! Staying in a job you like and getting promoted within has always been my preferred career growth plan and it’s just starting to work out for me, too!

      Best of luck again – I hope this happens for you!!!!

  150. KatieKate*

    My boss just told me she was putting in a raise and title bump for me! :D I’m not sure what it will be, but I was already planning on asking her about it (there was a mix up last year where I missed the budget window by asking too late so I’m thrilled she remembered.

    1. k.k*

      Foundation Center Online has some good resources, both free and paid.

      At this link you’ll find free recorded webinar and self-paced courses (check out Intro to Finding Grants and Into to Proposal Writing):
      http://foundationcenter.org/improve-your-skills/fundraising

      They also offer free and paid training in person in a variety of cities. If there’s on near you I’d highly recommend it. I took one of the free ones and it covered a lot of the same info as the online course, but it was helpful getting to talk through it with others, hear what questions they asked, etc.

      1. Mimmy*

        Do these courses require that you already have a grant that you need to write, e.g. as part of your job?

        I’ve been wanting to learn grant writing as well – I’ve reviewed many, but never actually written one.

    3. Max from St. Mary's*

      You might check out your local public library system, our main library has a room dedicated to grant writing, complete with a part-time librarian and a subscription to a great grant database (sorry, forgot the name), it’s been really useful.

  152. Anon with "Cool Factor"*

    Has anyone here ever given up a “cool” job in favor of something that was a better fit for them personally? I’m not going to lie, it’s an ego boost to tell people where I work. I’d like to think that doesn’t matter but if I’m being totally honest it feels nice. We have a lot of recognition as a brand and working as a designer for this place has been exciting in that way…

    But that’s about where the “cool” ends for me lately. I love the people I work with, but I’m underpaid and not challenged in my job, there’s no room for advancement, and after five years, I think it’s time to move on. I just found out there will be an opening in a place I’ve had my eye on for the last couple years and I’m excited about the possibility of interviewing (we’ll see!)– designers there are paid better, the work is more varied and challenging, there’s more room for growth for me in my career. But there is a part of me that is a little sad at the thought of people not recognizing the work I do because I’d be working for a slightly less visible brand. Even if what I’d be trading off is doing work that is more meaningful while being less public.

    Even as I’m typing this I realize it’s kind of crazy I’m putting so much value in working at a “cool” place for the sake of working there– but I’d like to hear from other people that made a similar move!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Since you put “cool” in quotation marks, yes. No regrets. Impressive title at a “forward-thinking” place. Totally toxic environment. Not cool at all. Left for a less impressive sounding title at a less-cool-sounding place, and I’m much happier. Even took a pay cut. No regrets.

      1. Anon with "Cool Factor"*

        Thank you! When I started it was cool without quotation marks. But in the last year I’ve slowly started to realize it wasn’t anymore and it’s been hard to come to terms with. It’s funny because “forward-thinking” is part of it here… it is definitely not as forward-thinking as it was when I first arrived.

    2. Kate*

      I feel like I can relate a little bit. I left a job at a organization that is extremely well known in my state/general region and is highly regarded as a fabulous place to work and to have in the community. BUT I hated it. The mission and general atmosphere of the org was great and something I still support, but my role was boring and not very challenging. Most people that I worked with had been with the organization for 15+ years and people were shocked that anyone would want to leave.

      I’ve been in my new role for about 6 months and I love it. No one has ever heard of my current workplace and I have gotten some negative feedback from people who don’t understand it (I work with political lobbyists), but I am really happy with my change. I feel like I can be more “myself” and I have more autonomy since we aren’t burdened by a long standing tradition or perceived status in the community. If I am talking about my job to someone who I want to impress, I just play up the coolest parts of my job instead of focusing on the actual organization’s coolness.

      1. Anon with "Cool Factor"*

        This does help! Yeah there are SO many people in my current job that have been around for decades and even my friends that I’ve talked to about wanting a new job kind of look at me like I’m nuts.

        I love what you said about getting to be more like yourself. It’s been tough to realize I don’t quite fit into the culture at my current job, I suppose I wish I did and that’s what’s making the idea of moving harder.

    3. Madame X*

      I left a job in academia in which I was part of a high-profile research group. It was fascinating research, I really enjoyed working with my colleagues, and I was incredibly proud of the work I did for my team.
      The research we did was really easy to explain to people and because it is often discussed in the news. I was also a very low-paying position. There was no benefit to me staying another year unless I was planning to climb the academic ladder as a professor, which I had already decided was not my path. The last year I was at my previous position, I started applying to non-academic science positions. When I got news that the brand new grant my lab had received was not going to cover my salary for the following year, I accelerated my job search. Two months after I left, I landed in my current position, which is a great fit with my skills, it is meaningful work , and pays me 40% then what I was making previously. The title I have is not as flashy as my previous position. The work I do now is a bit more niche and can be little more difficult t explain to people, but I am so much more comfortable in my current position than I was in my previous one.

      You’re the only one who’s going to live your life. If it doesn’t make sense for you to continue working where you are for either financial reasons or career development , then no amount of “cool factor” can make up for that.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Yes, and I commented just below about what I did! My former department was created by the university’s president, and it was considered the “hot place to work.” People were trying to get in. Upper management bragged about it to the deans/chairs/VPs, like it was such a wonderful place to work. But I’d been with most of those people for the past 5 years, and I knew how toxic it was. Management was weak and only cared about appearances. Jerks and bullies were never fired or even disciplined. They wanted everything done FAST, but nothing was done well, so everything was constantly breaking and we never had the time to fix it properly and actually improve our applications and services. Not to mention most of us were way underpaid, and when they brought in new people with less experience, they gave them huge salaries, but wouldn’t compensate the rest of us accordingly.

      So yeah, I’m totally happy I gave up the “cool” place!

    5. Notarealgreendress*

      Yes – went from public relations to contract analyst. The PR job was impressive to talk about, fun to hear about, but I never really felt like a success while doing it, and couldn’t wait to get home. After a year/two on the as an analyst I realized that I am a fantastic analyst (even though my job is bore/chore for everyone else and not entertaining to others to hear me describe my day), and the company I work for is great & treats me like a rock star.

    6. NZ Muse*

      I guess being an editor/journalist had the cool factor and there were often cool things I got to do/try because of my job! But I left the field for better pay/stability and a new challenge and have never looked back.

      Also have switched from Recognisable Name to No Name employers back and forth several times; I can’t lie, I enjoy being able to tell people where I work and have them know where I mean rather than having to go into a detailed explanation. Big names also tend to look good on a CV.

  153. Katie Pie*

    Anyone have stories of leaving a job to make a lateral move in terms of pay and/or position for the sake of other things like stability? How did it work out for you?
    I’m in my notice period right now, soon to start at a job that will offer some new challenges and growth potential, but pay-wise would not be considered a “win”. But the growth potential coupled with some other unquantifiable aspects made it seem like the right decision. But until I start, who knows? This is a weird season.
    I made a move like this once before, stepping back in responsibility and sideways in pay in order to transition from the non-profit world to private industry. It ended up being the right move, but again, risky, because I’d liked where I worked.
    Would love to feel some solidarity.

    1. Anon with "Cool Factor"*

      Me! Funny enough since I just posted above you. But yes, when I moved into my current role it was very much a lateral move. I made slightly more than I had been but that was mostly because the COL in the city I was moving to was higher. I don’t regret that move for a second, even though I’m considering leaving now because I’ve maxed out my own growth potential in my role. When I look back I have gained a lot of skills and competence even though my title technically didn’t change… and I think future employers will be able to see that.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I made a lateral move at my university last year, though it was a good pay bump for me because my former department was really underpaying me…and the new role was paying a fair market price. I had the exact same title, just moved to a different department. It has worked out great! Totally the right move. I love my bosses, I love my team, I love my division. I am getting way more growth opportunities and learning so much more in this role, and it’s in the work I want to do. I just mesh better with this crowd than I did in my last job. Also – I got a great promotion 6 months in and basically increased my salary by about 50% from my former job.

      I was sort of hesitant at first, wondering if I had done the right thing – my first two weeks I felt like I was in over my head – but it became clear over time that it was the right decision. My former department was just going in directions I didn’t want to go, and now I’m in a place where my goals align with my bosses and my team.

      1. Katie Pie*

        It’s good to hear about how well you’re doing after 2 weeks of in-over-your-head. My new job will have one aspect that will be totally new to me, so I worry about how overwhelmed that will make me, and I’m eager to do well and have them see I’m worth my salt (and hopefully get more salt–this was a lateral move for me monetarily).

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Thanks! I seriously panicked during those first two weeks (I had been in my previous job for 7 years, so it was really just fear of change), but after that subsided I just tried to do my best and remind myself that learning new things was one of the reasons I wanted a new job.

          Congrats on your job!

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Yes! I did a lateral move from a smaller department of my organization to a larger department. I got the opportunity to work with a much larger client group and on issues at an organization wide level. It was a great move, even though it wasn’t more money.

  154. Pen Thief*

    I just need to vent today, so I’m changing my name.

    I working on a document that will be used in some areas of my company. I spent several weeks on it, because there was much research involved (talking to my peers at other companies in the same industry since we’re all in this together, checking all the usual industry forums to see what others are doing, etc.) to determine what needs to be on the document and what is a “nice to have.”

    When I finished it up I sent it over to another department that will be using it as a courtesy to say, “Hey this is the document you’ll be using after X date.” Since I’m not overly familiar with the back end of the software and which fields may or may not present an issue for the front end, I wanted to send it over so we’re not scrambling at the 11th hour to revise it.

    I get a call and all these questions are being fired at me as to why? how? etc. “Well, it’s a regulatory requirement in general and this is what I understand of it at the moment, which is why X. We have no further information at this point.” They then offer to make a formatting tweak or two and send it back. Sure. Fine. I get the document back and although 90% of the content is still there, there were many formatting changes all the way down to font, document name change and orientation change. Some wording was rearranged or changed. More wording was added. I was so pissed off.

    Now, 90% of stuff rolls off my back. I learned long ago that it’s just too exhausting to be mad at all the little stuff. But in this case, I was absolutely stewing ALL night and into this morning, even though I made a logical argument to myself over and over again that the basic gist of the document is there, someone else just tweaked my work and it looks good anyway, plus they’re the ones using it; we just review it and keep for audit and review purposes. It wasn’t that I’d worked so long on it. It was that so many immaterial changes were made and that basically said to me overall, “Your document looks like crap, mine’s better. Here ya go. You’re welcome!” And what stuck in my craw the most of all was the fact that I could find no valid reason to push back and say “thanks, but no thanks” without seeming really petty and announcing my way is the only way.

    I’m calm today. I made some changes I wanted to make and it’s done with. Also, I enlisted said person to help with another document I need that I’m actually having a lot of trouble with, so now I won’t have to do it. ;) So I guess I turned it into a win.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      Focus on the win!
      I tend to feel the same way you do about your document, so I feel for you. Hope you have a good weekend!

    2. Yorick*

      Don’t take it personally. Imagine that there was some reason for every change, since there may well be. They may have thought “Sandy is the main person filling out this form and with her eyesight she can’t read Calibri as well as Helvetica, so we’ll change it” and so on.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Lots of business analyst/data analyst/business intelligence analyst jobs deal with data visualization, but it is definitely going to be computer-based. You would be using tools like Power BI, Tableau, SAS, Oracle BI suite. While you don’t necessarily need to use code – I’ve encountered plenty of analysts who knew zero about SQL – it always helps understand the underlying methodology to retrieve the data.

      Additionally, I think if you are looking for a more graphic design type of position…it’s still going to be computer based. Is there something about using a computer most of the day that doesn’t appeal to you, or are you worried about getting too much into the coding/IT aspect of it?

    3. artgirl*

      I know data visualization is really hot right now but not sure if there are jobs where that is the person’s primary function.

    4. Student*

      No. Nobody wants your opinion on how a graphic should look if you cannot, personally, make it look that way. Only people who get to do that are high-level managers, and then they are usually being obnoxious bike-shedders instead of useful contributors when they do that.

      Some high-level tools that let many “non-coders” display data professionally include Mathematica, Matlab, R. Really, they just fool you into coding before you can get too scared of what it entails and bail out to Excel plots. There are many others.

      1. Visualization Specialist*

        I’m the data viz lead at my organization & I agree with this. At least in my experience, a lot of the design work happens on the screen (especially as you get into interactive stuff) & you really need some solid coding experience for that. For reference, I actually came to my current job thru a series of straight-up developer roles, and have really needed that level of comfort with code.

        If you are interested in the field, check out Hanspeter Pfister and Alberto Cairo’s work.

  156. Janey-Jane*

    Something I see pop-up now and again, is the suggestion to find a lawyer. For those of us who literally know no lawyers….how does one go about finding a lawyer? Googling?

    2. Thlayli*

      Google. There are different specialties too. Google types of lawyers in your area, then google the type you want, then google the specific name.

    3. The JMP*

      Please don’t start by googling! It’s really difficult (maybe impossible) to know whether you’re meeting with a reputable/high-quality attorney if you pick someone from the internet or the phone book.

      The best option is to ask any family/friends who have used a lawyer in the same legal area who they used and whether they were happy with the lawyer’s services.

      Your local (usually state) bar association probably has a referral service, and that can also be a good place to start. Often you pay a small fee for a short consultation. Many individual legal fields also have field-specific referral services.

    4. Thursday Next*

      If you have family or friends who are lawyers, many of them may have trusted contacts among other lawyers who practice in the area you need.

  157. Me--Blargh*

    *sigh*
    Nothing to report. I’ve resumed looking in St. Louis. Applied for a stretch position (it says entry-level, though they’re asking for mid-level experience, plus it’s a museum, so probably no chance,but dream job). Applied for a freelance position (guh, higher taxes; no insurance; will be hard for me to manage the accounting of that). Have heard nothing from interview; don’t expect to (I didn’t do very well; I guess it was just a bad day). Dropped the price of my ebook to 99 cents (did you know I only make 66 cents from that? Thanks PayPal!) and made exactly one sale.

    I feel very unqualified, very useless, and very worthless.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      Don’t feel that way…February is like that, all gray. This was a hard week. I can’t even muster up the strength to go and do my favorite thing tomorrow.
      Next week will be better, let’s keep chanting that, ok?

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Ugh, February is the WORST!! We had a 75-degree day yesterday and today it’s back to 40.

        I think that’s why I did so poorly on the interview–it was cold, grey, had been for several days, and my brain just was not working properly.

      2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        February makes EVERYTHING seem worse, although ever so slightly less worse than January. Hang in there!

    2. ContentWrangler*

      I think we’ve all had periods like this. The job hunt process can be totally draining. I hope things start looking up for you!

      Also, I live in St. Louis – the museums here are awesome! I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Yes, they are. I’ve been to a couple, including the one I applied to. St. Louis is not my first choice of a place to move, but it would do for a little while, anyway.

        1. ContentWrangler*

          Yeah I didn’t think I would end up back here after college. But I do enjoy having access to really great museums, theaters, zoo, and restaurants without having to break the bank for rent. I probably won’t be here forever but it’s a good place to be for right now.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I always want to give you internet hugs when I read your updates.

      I’m curious if you’ve tried totally different things outside of office work and writing work. The only reason I ask is that my mother-in-law used to be a legal secretary, and she typically was an independent contractor. The work got to be harder to come by, esp. when she was in FL and upstate NY in the recession, and after the recession she couldn’t get back into it (age, skills needed, etc.). Recently, to pay the bills she was a helper for someone with Alzheimer’s. They moved, and now she is a house manager for some rich people on Jupiter Island. She also nannied for them ~15 years ago. I don’t know any other rich people looking for house managers, or I would give you their name!

      I like my office job, and personally wouldn’t want to get into something else, so I totally get sticking with your focus. Just thought I’d throw it out there. : )

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (I also realize you may have already considered that and haven’t had luck with other things either. I know I’m not reinventing the wheel here.)

        1. Me--Blargh*

          I tried going back to temp agencies–everything had accounting. Lots of really really really low-paid jobs. Exjob is one of the best-paying companies here and everyone knows it. So I suspect the second people see on my resume or application, they say “Oh there is no way; she’ll want too much money,” or “Oh, she worked at XYZ Company; she wouldn’t want to stay here,” and that’s why I don’t get a call back. (They’re right–I would leave.) Or even “Why is she no longer at XYZ Company? If they didn’t want her, why would we?”

          Haha, what your mum does would be an interesting job, but I don’t think we have that level of rich people here!

  158. Earthwalker*

    Thanks to the terrific people who answered my request about affirmative action last open thread! I was unaware that it was no longer legal and had not considered approaching managers about it in that light (although it might not make sense for a woman to sue an employer for hiring her for the wrong reason.) I especially appreciated ket’s post. It’s awfully helpful just to know I’m not alone in having such an experience and feeling angry about it.

  159. Adlib*

    Just stopping in to say that today we are having our Office Olympics! It really is pretty cool what the branch manager came up with, mostly just simple games. We’re a small office, but I’m kind of ridiculously excited about it.

  160. Hope(ful? less?)*

    Has anyone ever come back from poor work performance (or supervised someone in this scenario) and not only been considered an adequate employee, but a superstar one?

    I started a new position in a PhD program last August, and it has taken way more time than either my supervisor or me expected for me to find my feet. To be perfectly honest, I’ve been dragging, dropping the ball, and just not performing as well as someone with my background, experience, and expertise could be reasonably expected to. My supervisor has been incredibly kind about it, pushing me and mentoring me through it in all of the right ways, but she’s also never had a struggle like this with any of her other students previously. I know I can succeed here, and I’m slowly improving, but sometimes it feels like it’s one step forward, one step back as I’m trying to get everything figured out.

    Meanwhile, for reaching the position I want at the end (professorship somewhere), I’ll be here working under her supervision for six years and need to come out of the program with absolutely *glowing* letters of recommendation and enthusiasm. Right now I’m at the beginning, and it feels like I’ve shot my dream in the foot already – but I don’t know if that’s true or putting way too much pressure on myself. I don’t want to spend six years working for something that has no possibility of happening, and the culture in our program is so encouraging that I’m not sure if anyone would tell me if that were the case.

    I know that people commonly manage to turn things around and improve their skills and performance – but has anyone ever had experience going from bottom to superstar? What helped or made that happen for you? If you’re a supervisor, have you ever managed someone who started out rocky but became your go-to person with no hesitations over time? What made that transition possible in your mind?

    1. Betsy*

      I do think you might be setting your expectations too high. Usually ‘golden boy’ in any academic department is the one the supervisors or other influential people in the department like the most. So it’s quite common to be academically successful without being golden boy, because the reality is that if there are fifteen students in a program, there is only one golden boy. Being a superstar in academia is often more about office politics than ability, I think.

      Secondly, your worth will mainly be assessed by your publication record, so if you get solid publications, you will most likely be in a decent position to get a good job when you graduate. This will count for a lot more than the recommendation letter. If you can get your supervisor to co-author publications with you that’s basically like hitting the jackpot. You will also have PhD examiners’ reports that will outline your strengths.

      In a way, once you are accepted into the program, I don’t think academia’s very much about skill or ability (as most people accepted into PhD programs are intelligent and capable to begin with). It’s more about productivity and being able to write lots of publications and get grants.

  161. BookCocoon*

    I recently interviewed for a position with an organization that has a remote workforce and am anxiously waiting to hear if I have an offer. This would be my first position that’s fully work from home. I have no idea what the expectations are around technology, though. Do companies expect you to use your own computer or provide one? Do they reimburse you for buying one on your own or send you one? I’m guessing there is some variation but would be curious to know what most people’s experience has been, and if it’s appropriate for me to negotiate for the full tech setup I’d like to have if/when they make me an offer.

    1. Red Reader*

      My employer provides to fully remote employees: one computer, either desktop tower or laptop-with-dock (depending on their role). Two monitors of 19″ or larger (depending on what the IT folks have in stock at the time). One keyboard. One mouse. One headset, if they have a software-based phone set up through our messaging system.

      Anything else you want, you have to provide on your own. We’re expressly forbidden from hooking up printers to machines that aren’t located on-site, for patient privacy reasons. I opted to provide my own keyboard and trackball instead of taking theirs, and I only took one 24″ monitor (and added my own personal 27″ for the second, instead of one of their 19″).

  162. she was a fast machine*

    I am expecting a “surprise” wedding shower this afternoon right before work is over, and have already guessed that I will be receiving gifts both big(like an instapot, which I asked a coworker about hers and she told me if I was gonna get one to wait until after today) and small(money tree, individual cards). I’m not very good at handling a lot of attention(which is why we eloped in the first place) nor how to address gifts in this situation. I’ve always been told to write thank you cards, which I definitely will, but because of my position, I’m expecting a lot of smaller gifts(i.e. $10 or so) from most of the people in attendance, and I don’t know how to address that. Should I write thank you cards to everyone who gave me something? Should I only do it for the big stuff? Should I do it at all, since it was planned/executed entirely without my knowledge/expectation? To be clear, I think I probably should write thank you notes, but the dynamic of it being a surprise, it being at work, and the different scale of gifts I’ll be receiving has given me pause.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      Thank you notes for everything!
      I eloped too and it was wonderful. *sigh* 20 years ago.
      Have fun and congratulations.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        I was really glad we eloped, it was a lovely day for us. Thank you and thanks for confirming my initial thoughts :)

      1. she was a fast machine*

        Thanks! That is exactly what I will do, I already sent a mass thank you for the unknown money tree donors, but I will send everyone who attached their name to anything a card. :)

    3. Murphy*

      I think anyone who gives you something should get a thank you note.

      I had a baby shower at work last year. A few people bought me gifts and then there was a group gift card. I wrote thank you notes to the people who bought me gifts, but I had no way of knowing who contributed to the gift card. We have a chalkboard in the breakroom, so I just wrote a general thank you to everyone who contributed to my shower.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        I will do that!

        I sent an email to all staff(since most were there) thanking in general for the party and money tree, but anyone who attached their name/gave a card/gift I will write something for. Congratulations on your baby. :)

    4. Observer*

      None of that matters – if someone gives you a gift, you write a thank you gift. The only ting I’d say is that ESPECIALLY if some of the gifts are coming from people on lower salaries or lower on the office ladder than you, a thank you not is even MORE important.

  163. AnnaleighUK*

    Remember last week I told you about the bodybuilding guy we interviewed who was all ‘I can lift you and Manager up, wanna see?’

    We gave him the job offer yesterday and he accepted.

    Before you all go ANI WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, we do have reasons. One was that Manager and I came back to a lovely apologetic email from him on Monday morning, acknowledging that he’d stepped over a line in his enthusiasm about his hobby and he’d understand if we decided not to pursue his application further. Plus thanking us for the interview and the usual stuff you mail someone after an interview. And he was the ONLY thank you email we got from any candidate. To be honest given the rest of the candidates we interviewed we would have offered him the job even without the email, but that shot him back up the list.

    Another was that he’s literally the only candidate with the right background and skills for the position we need. He’s got so much more experience than the rest of the people we interviewed (he’s my age, so late thirties) and he just seems to fit the gap we have.

    And the third reason… he’s bilingual in a language we desperately need. Frickin’ score – we do a lot of business with a particular Eastern European country and their English can be shaky, so to have someone who is fluent in their language is going to be a huge plus.

    He was so chuffed when we rang him to offer the job. I think he’s going to be great – and he’s promised not to lift anyone up without their permission! He starts week after next, so I’ll keep you posted.

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      Score one for him knowing when boundaries are crossed and how to approach that in the future!

      Good Luck :)

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Aww, I actually like this ending! If he’s like me, he was probably nervous about answering other aspects of the interview, got to an “easy” question, then overshot in his excitement. Congrats to all parties.

    3. R2D2*

      Fabulous update! It’s a great sign that he apologized for offering to demonstrate his strength at the interview. I’m sure he was kicking himself right after it happened!

    5. Thursday Next*

      It’s so nice to close out a Friday with a story of someone who’s seen the error of his ways and apologized graciously! And it’s very encouraging to be reminded that fundamentally decent candidates can make mistakes, and fundamentally decent employers can look past those mistakes.

  164. Goya de la Mancha*

    EMAILS

    Are you a clearer or a keeper? Do you delete an email as soon as read/no longer pertains or to keep them and end up with thousands in your inbox?

    I have 3 emails that I use, Work, personal (networking, jobs, etc.), and Junk (online shopping, deals, etc.) – For some reason the work email and the junk email tend to end up with thousands in them before I clear them out, but I’m definitely a purger on the personal inbox.

    1. Chris Jaegle*

      I’ve recently become a purger. It was just too stressful and overwhelming to see that my junk inbox had +1,000 messages. I try to keep on top of my more business email too, but that one has a lot of read-but-not-deleted messages.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m a keeper. We have virtually unlimited storage, so I just keep all the messages. I star the ones I need to get back to, and I can search back for anything I need to search for.

    3. Murphy*

      Generally, if it’s in my inbox it means I still need to deal with it. Either I’m waiting to hear back from someone, or there’s some action that I need to take. Otherwise I archive/delete pretty quickly. I’m better about this at work then with my personal email.

    4. Short & Dumpy*

      I’m a keeper. I *do* move them into folders though rather than leaving them in the inbox. I’ve been responsible for pulling together records for too many court cases where a casual email from 3 years ago documenting that yes, in fact we did consider XYZ thing, is the difference between winning and losing. (ah, the joys of government employment!)

    5. bb-great*

      For my work email I delete mailing list emails but keep the rest. I flag anything that needs follow up in Outlook if I’m not following up right away.

    6. OtterB*

      I’m a keeper. I delete clearly transient things from coworkers but otherwise leave emails. I run an annual survey, and it’s often helpful to me when I get a question from someone to be able to check for the last time I corresponded with them, which might be last year or might be two years ago.

    7. TotesMaGoats*

      For work, I’m a keeper but an organized keeper. The only things in my inbox are things that I have to do. Everything else gets filed away when done. At my first jobs, I didn’t manage my email well and had massive inboxes. I couldn’t handle that.

      I delete a lot more from my personal email but still following files rules with stuff I have to keep. I have to purge work from time to time of junk/deleted because of space reasons. (Thanks outlook)

    8. LAI*

      I’m an archiver. Every email that comes into my work account gets archived as soon as I’ve dealt with it (with the appropriate label to find it later). My inbox typically only contains the number of emails that I can view on a single screen. If I have to scroll to see my whole inbox, then it’s too full and I need to get some stuff done and clean it out. I also use Alison’s technique of keeping a “waiting for reply” folder for emails that I know I won’t hear back about right away, so that they’re not taking up space in my inbox but I don’t forget about them entirely.

    9. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      I’m a keeper, but with liberal use of folders for thing I want to refer back to. I have a cycle in which there is a major project that rolls around three times each year, and being able to go back and see messages from the previous g0-round is very helpful. I used to get teased about not deleting things, until all of those teasers realized that I could put my eyes on info they wanted but had inadvertently deleted (e.g., form and deadline for selling back annual leave, which was included in a larger email update from HR).

    10. Future Analyst*

      I keep them, but my inbox contains strictly action items, and everything else goes into folders. (It makes sense to keep mine, since I regularly search back through for things.)

    11. Chameleon*

      I seem to be in the minority in that I’m a keeper–just plain keeper. My inbox is always full of stuff–because I always seem to need to search for an old email and it’s easier having it in one place.

      I am, however, an obsessive “unread” clearer. I can’t stand having that little (4) next to my inbox so I will read or delete things as soon as I can. I also delete my junk folder constantly and empty my trash.

    12. WellRed*

      I am afraid to say i have just under 15k emails in my inbox. There’s no way to clear that backlog, right?

      1. Short & Dumpy*

        Depending on what program you’re using, actually it would probably only take a solid day to get it sorted nicely into folders. Key word search, then move the results in batches to whatever folder. If there are things like newsletters that all can definitely be deleted, start with those so you can feel a sense of accomplishment.

    13. always with the different names*

      When I started my current job, I had everything in my inbox with no organisation for a good 2 months and it was fine – but then I got actual responsibilities and I took over someone’s job while they were on leave and we had a major project that had me CC’ed in on every email the 10+ people were sending and my emails exploded and I needed organisation!!! I don’t think I’d ever go back!

      It took me a while to settle into something that worked for me, but I think it works. I don’t sort things immediately at the moment because I have so many urgent and competing priorities that I’m concerned I’ll miss something, but anything that I can is getting sorted into folders. I used to use ‘To Do’ and ‘Follow up’ folders but out of sight, out of mind.

      Personal email accounts are a hot mess and I don’t anticipate ever bothering to sort those.

  165. Chris Jaegle*

    Does anyone have any experience with recruiters? I started talking with one who said she has a job lined up for me (I’m just waiting to hear back about if they’ll pay me more than they’re offering), but I haven’t signed a contract or anything. They’re a legit business, I just don’t understand what they get out of the deal. She also told me that I have to give her a list of everywhere I applied so I don’t get represented twice, but I feel a little weird about that… I’m nervous they’ll undercut me and push for someone else to get those jobs that I applied for. Is that a real concern, or me just being paranoid?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I can’t speak to the latter, but in my experience with recruiters they get commission from placing you with the company. I believe (could be wrong as I’m not a recruiter) that their contract is with the employer, not you.

    2. London Calling*

      A recruiter will always put several people forward for a role, however much they tell you that you and the job are made for each other, because it increases their chances of placing a candidate and getting the fees – and fees are what it’s about, whether they are ongoing for a temp placement or a percentage of your salary for placing you in a permanent role. I would assume that they don’t want to put you forward to where you’ve applied before because it’s a waste of their time (and they don’t earn fees) if you weren’t successful with your application before.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Recruiters are paid by the clients, not the job seekers. It is in their best interest to place you at the highest possible rate because the fees are generally related to the salary.

    4. Oxford Coma*

      My experience is that many of them are con artists who will do anything to make their cut and don’t care if they hang you out to dry. I would NEVER give one a list of where I applied. She might try to insert herself into the process and could sabotage you.

  166. Money Woes*

    I looked up the Department of Labor for my state. It said employers are to pay twice a calendar month or, in certain circumstances, once a calendar month.

    I’m not even learning of my current pay until a month in and not seeing anything until two months in.

    I work about 3.5 months at a time for my company at certain times of the year.

    Am I missing something? I really could use the month I’m waiting for.

    In case you need to know:
    -this is a gov position but not federal
    -this is non-union
    -we do not receive health benefits
    -our pay is docked if we miss a day and so we do not get any sick or vacation days

    1. fposte*

      Are you exempt or non-exempt? Contractor or employee? Municipal or state? I don’t know what you mean by “learning of my current pay,” but it sounds like you’re talking about not being paid until you’ve worked two months. That’s dubious, but there may be extenuating circumstances related to my questions.

      1. Money Woes*

        I get a flat rate of pay before taxes. I am expected to be at work for a certain amount of time each week, and it doesn’t matter how much work I continue to put in back at home.

        I don’t know if I’m classified as a contractor or employee. I applied through the company’s website and was hired by them.

        By “learning my current pay,” at the start of each working session, I am supposed to receive a memo that states what my job is and how much my flat rate is for that work. I do not receive this memo (as it is one piece of paper that I have to sign and turn back in) until I’m 4 weeks into my working session; that was last week.

        You are correct about me not getting paid until two months in. I began the current session back in mid-January, and I will not receive my direct deposit until sometime mid-March.

        1. fposte*

          I think it’s possible you might be on a short-term contract, but I think the advice elsewhere for you just to contact the DOL and ask is good–this is an unusual arrangement and I don’t think we can know enough from here to say.

    2. Sabrina Spellman*

      Do you know if your workplace has a specific date that they pay employees? For example, at my place of employment, we get paid once a month. This is all well and good, but it means that if you start on or after the 15th of the month, you won’t be getting paid until next month.

      1. Money Woes*

        I believe the majority of the company gets paid on a regular basis, such as every two weeks. I am not the only one who gets paid like this as we are a particular group within the company. However, we are not the only ones who do this job.

        However, I started in mid-January and won’t see a paycheck until mid-March.

    3. zora*

      I was going to say maybe it’s a position that is paid by stipend, until you said that your pay is docked for missing a day. That isn’t allowed if you are paid by stipend.

      I am also confused, so if I was you I would reach out to whatever HR or payroll department is available to ask for clarification. And if that doesn’t work, or their explanation still doesn’t make sense, I would then reach out to the DOL. Calling them doesn’t automatically mean you are reporting a violation, you can call just to ask about how the law works and an explanation of how your situation is legal.

      1. Natalie*

        Yes, you can always call them and ask questions without formally filing a complaint. I’ve done this before and it was helpful.

    4. JeanB in NC*

      If you start working on the 1st of Feb, for example, you might not get paid until March 31st. State jobs where I used to work paid once a month, and just as if you were paid weekly, you wouldn’t get your paycheck until the end of the 2nd week. I week/month’s work, then wait 1 week/month for paycheck. (Hopefully this makes sense!)

      1. Money Woes*

        You’re making sense, except it doesn’t correlate to what my company is doing – they don’t pay me until two months in and then biweekly from there until the end of the session.

        It’s county government, by the way.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, this is really strange, I have never heard of a set up like this. I would definitely talk to the DOL for advice.

  167. A friend-boss is a bad idea (in both directions)*

    I decided to give my new job a year even though I realized it wasn’t a good fit for me early on, because my boss is a friend of my partner and mine and I didn’t want to cause awkwardness outside of the work relationship. I’ve never expressed how much I hate this job to my boss (I also think she is a great person but not a great manager), and we generally don’t talk about work outside of work. It seems like they haven’t had a lot of success with people in my role previously (all were fired), and I was given two raises pretty quickly as a reflection of the good job I’ve done. I’ve been offered a job by my old employer for something that pays almost twice what I am making here (doing something I feel more passionate and excited about) and I’m going to take it, but the offer is also coming right when the busy season is starting at my current job. I feel conflicted/guilty for putting in my notice because my boss is a friend and it would put a lot of stress on her, although I can probably negotiate with my old/new employer to stay through the busy season (that “ends” in 6 weeks). I am struggling to frame why I am leaving and having anxiety about the conversation, since this is someone I will be seeing beyond the end of this job. Tips greatly appreciated!

    1. OtterB*

      I would try to focus on “I want to spend more time doing x because I’ve realized how important that is to me,” where x is a key feature of the new job and limited or nonexistent in your current one.

      1. A friend-boss is a bad idea (in both directions)*

        That is easily done, as the company industries are worlds apart! Thank you. I think I have more anxiety about starting the conversation than anything else.

  168. Emma*

    I just learned that a co-worker of mine has complained about me to my manager’s boss. She claims that I have been rude and aggressive towards her. This is simply not true. I have never been rude to her, or anyone else for that matter. She is a bully but her boss loves her and believes any lie she will come up with.
    My boss wants me to stay out of it and not respond since this is a discussion at a much higher level. He thinks it will just pass (ie he doesn’t want to have to handle this). I feel very uncomfortable knowing that someone is trash talking me to upper management and I am not even given an opportunity to defend myself/discuss what she might have misunderstood/solve the situation. It gives me anxiety and I feel like quitting. Do you have any advice to give? I don’t want to let her spread lies about me without responding, but am afraid of conflicts and don’t want to make it worse.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      Definitely don’t quit!

      Do you generally trust your boss? I can’t tell from your line about him not wanting to handle this means you think he’s avoiding responsibility or if he really thinks this is something that should just be ignored. Sometimes the best thing you can do is keep your head down and do good work. Defending yourself verbally against someone who is determined to lie is pretty futile. Just focus on showing what kind of person you really are in your day to day work.

      How exactly did you hear about these complaints, anyway?

      1. Emma*

        Thanks for answering me! I understand that people can disagree and have different opinions which might lead to conflict, but this is a pure lie, which completely threw me off guard. I think my boss would rather not have to get deal with these sort of things and wishes it would disappear. I’m pretty sure he would just say that he will make sure I don’t misbehave again.
        My boss told me. The colleague had apparently gone to my boss’ boss and asked to have me removed from the project I manage because I was rude and aggressive, and the boss’s boss told my boss.

        1. ContentWrangler*

          That sucks that your boss isn’t willing to go to bat for you. Especially since he bothered to tell you about the complaints.

          I’m assuming that you have not been removed from your project? That’s good at least. Maybe you can approach your boss about dealing with the accusations from the perspective that this hostility from your coworker could hinder the project. Right now he might see it (wrongly) as a personal issue. Best of luck dealing with this!

  169. Paquita*

    I saw an internal job posted at work yesterday. I am thinking about applying. Any advice about moving to a totally different department? Think llama grooming to teapot support. My core skills will transfer but I would need to learn all new processes. The other thing is I heard the hours are 6 to 3. I am not really a morning person, however I currently start at 7 and manage that. Would an hour be that much harder?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I think an hour would make a pretty big difference, especially if you’re not a morning person. I think a 6 am start time (no idea how long your commute is) would be rough, unless you’re really good at sticking to a strict bedtime.

    2. LadyKelvin*

      Seconding ContentWrangler. There is a huge difference between a 7am start and a 6am start. I start at 6:30 every day and when I have late meetings I go in late. It is amazing how much more productive I am with just an extra hour of sleep. Plus, think about how early you will need to go to bed. I’m in bed most nights by 8:30, sometimes as early as 8 because I need 8 hours of sleep and my dog needs a walk before work, so I get up at 5 every day. Also, you will never wake up in natural sunlight, which makes it really really hard to get up.

    3. Windchime*

      I have a different point of view. I used to have a 7:30 AM start time and recently changed my schedule so now I start around 6-6:15. I am not a morning person, but I made this change because traffic is so much better just by shifting an hour earlier (I am saving myself over an hour commute time every day). I now get up at 4:30 (ok, 4:45 because of the snooze button) and am out the door by 5:15. Yeah, it’s early but it’s worth it because of the traffic. Also, I get to leave work around 2 or 2:30.

      Right now it’s dark when I leave the house but in the summer, it will be light. I live in Washington (not DC) so it gets light super early in the summer.

  170. Oxford Coma*

    Is there such a thing as training/classes/apps for people to learn accents, rather than languages? I have changed roles a bit recently in a way that involves a large number of international conference calls, and I am really struggling to understand some ESOL speakers from other regions.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My brother does dialect coaching for local theaters. I’m not sure if that type of thing would be helpful in your situation or not.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’ve listened to talk radio that is in English, but from a different country. That might help you pick up on some of the pronunciations and vocabulary. News sources are also good.

    3. Ambpersand*

      I don’t have any resources but I will tell you that it gets easier the more you do it and become used to it. During my transition into my current role I had the same problem (we’re an international company) and it was really overwhelming. One coworker gave me a tidbit of advice, which was to listen to the speech pattern “underneath” the accent and it can make words and sentences a bit clearer. A year and a half later it’s not nearly as hard to do as it was in the beginning.

    4. Listener*

      I sometimes find it helps if I close my eyes when I am listening. (probably improves focus, since I’m concentrating on just one input). Also, slow down. Don’t feel the need to be thinking of your response or what it all means in the big picture, just try to get the words they are saying down.

      Make sure you’ve got really good audio quality if you can – so headphones on instead of on speaker, etc.

      Also second the comment that it gets easier as you get to know people’s voices, and the interesting translations of your particular industry keywords.

    5. Julianne*

      It’s very much a thing for the non-native speakers of English – I know a few people who teach ESL in Asia, and there’s high demand for “accent neutralization” – but I don’t know of anything aimed at teaching speakers of English (or any language) to better understand non-native speakers of their native/primary working language.

      If you mostly work with non-native English speakers who speak the same L1, learning about the phonetics and structure of the L1 might help. For example, my ESL students pronounce the letter “r” in certain positions like the English “h,” and knowing that helps me understand some of their speech. This may be less practical if you work with speakers of many dissimilar languages, though.

  171. Wrench Turner*

    Guess who got fired in retaliation for a wage dispute?
    Thank the gods I had a new job lined up and started immediately. New Boss knows everything that’s going on, and is very “Heck with those guys! Onward and upward!” so that’s nice. Still frustrating to now have to wrangle HR to get my back pay. Good times.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, holy cow. They really were a nest of vipers, weren’t they? It sounds like you’ve landed on your feet, though, so just live well for the best revenge.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        One of the things my boss always said was that my records were very detailed and thorough. It served him well, and now serves me well. I have records of what was promised and when, of villainy I reported and when, and work site pictures and time stamped text message screenshots to prove all of it sent to my personal email just in case things happend.

        I basically gave HR samples of my evidence and an index of all the rest and said I’m giving the Very Large Company “a chance to make it right” before I take it up with our Dept. of Labour. I don’t want anyone else fired, just pay me what you owe me (and tell me how much COBRA will cost). Grandma Wrench always said “Keep your receipts!”

        I’m really more disappointed than anything. The Very Large Company was always very vocally “Rah rah! Safety! Integrity! Communication! Rah rah!” and it was nice to hear, I try to live by that. When it came time to lean on that standard, however, it crumpled like a wet refrigerator box. I’m a romantic tool and it’s immensely frustrating; all sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  172. Cindy Lou Who*

    So, I have off-site training all next week at our corporate office, which is about 45 or 50 minutes from my home.

    I planned on commuting every day, rather than being put up in a hotel (which was offered to me). In addition to the short-ish distance, I opted to commute every day because I have two prior obligations on Monday and Tuesday evening that I need to be back for. However, looking at the predicted weather, it’s going to be downright nasty out all next week, starting with severe thunderstorms Monday morning, to icy/wintry mixes Monday night-Thursday morning. I was in a serious car accident a few years ago driving on ice, and am terrified of driving in this sort of weather now.

    Would it be acceptable to ask my boss if I can bow out of the training? For context, this training is offered every other month to hundreds of employees at our company, so I don’t *think* it would be a big deal to just attend the next one. It’s also not a training geared specifically towards my position; it’s a new training session that everyone at my company has to now do at some point or another. My boss (who has only been here about 6 months) thinks very, very highly of me, so I don’t want to ruin that by skipping out at the last minute, but I have serious concerns about the weather. If I didn’t have two very important evening events back home next week (teaching FPU at my church one night, and a fancy networking dinner for my husband, in which spouses are encouraged to attend, and he already bought me a $50 ticket for), I would just ask to be put up in a hotel. Honestly, the weather may be so bad that the evening events I have back home are cancelled, so I definitely wouldn’t want to drive 50 minutes there and back in ice and snow. But, with that being said, the weather predictions here are often wrong, so I don’t want to bow out only for nothing to happen. Also, no one else from my office (we have 30+ branches nationwide) is attending this training, so there isn’t anyone I could ride with.

  173. It's bananas*

    Co-worker talked about how she is going to give “birthday spankings” to boss. That’s not right….right?

      1. Snark*

        I mean, I’ve heard of birthday spankings, mostly in the context of Dear Prudence, but bringing them up regarding an adult, who is also your boss? NOPE NOPE NOPEITY NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPEITY NOPE

    5. ContentWrangler*

      Definitely not right. I think we can safely put spanking in the “never-ever” category at work…outside of adult entertainment industries.

  174. anon post*

    Has anyone who reads here ever changed their mind about coming back from parental leave (or had a partner or someone they know do it)? I’m supposed to go back to work on Tuesday after maternity leave. I’ve been off for 14 months, my last day of work before my leave was December 20, 2016. I’ve used up all the mat leave I’m eligible for and all of my vacation time for the year (my company front loads vacation on Jan 1 of each year and doesn’t accrue). I have no way of contacting my boss until Monday. I feel guilty for putting it off because I kept thinking I would change my mind. The person who covered for me would have had their contract end this week sometime. I never thought I would be in this spot.

    1. Argh!*

      We’ve had a coworker do it. I was kind of irked, because we had all pitched in while she was out and then we had more time with a vacancy while we conducted a search for her replacement.

      Fortunately, it’s a rather rare thing, so you probably won’t be ruining the environment for the next woman who gets pregnant.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yikes, that’s really tough. As a manager, I’d be pretty frustrated that you didn’t tell me until the day you’d told us to expect you back — and I’d be advocating for changing the vacation policy so that it accrued rather than becoming available at the beginning of the year (or requiring people to pay it back if they took it all and then quit).

      I’m assuming you’re not in the U.S. (because of the length of your maternity leave), so I’m sure there are nuances I’m not understanding — like why are you unable to contact your manager?

      I’d recommend that offer to work out a long (whatever “long” means in the context of your region and industry) notice period (if they want you to come back at all) — long enough that they can run a good hiring process, not just a standard two weeks.

      1. anon post*

        I’m in Canada. The vacation front loading is normal for where we are and the industry. The office closes at noon on Fridays. There are no work cell phones or tablets and we can’t access work outside of the office so I will have no way to reach my boss/for him to see any message from me until he gets into work on Monday. If I had any way to contact him I would.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Got it — I thought you meant that you hadn’t been able to contact your manager at all during your parental leave.

          It’s pretty crappy to leave it until now; it’s going to cause a great deal of hardship for your colleagues, and who knows what the impact is on the person whose contract ended (could they have been hired on permanently? etc.). I know that’s not helpful to you now, but hopefully this experience can help you decide how to handle these kinds of hard decisions going forward.

    3. Thlayli*

      I know lots of people who stayed home after they had kids and didn’t go back. I know some who made the decision with only a couple of weeks to go. I don’t know any who made the decision on the day they were due back!

      Why can’t you give your manager some notice?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yes unfortunately, in the cases I know where women have done this (realized right as they were supposed to start that their hearts aren’t in it and they want to stay home) – they’ve gone back for a few weeks or a month, given notice, served out their two weeks’ notice period and then stayed home.

      2. anon post*

        My office closes at noon on Fridays. There are no work cell phones or tablets and we can’t access work outside of the office so I will have no way to reach my boss or for him to see any messages from me until he gets into work on Monday.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Is it unthinkable for you to go in to work as planned on Monday, give notice then, and serve out your two weeks? (I’m not being sarcastic, genuinely asking). That’s what I would suggest if you want to preserve this reference, but I also acknowledge that childcare issues can be prohibitive.

          1. Thlayli*

            I agree with lil fidget that this might be the only way to maintain good relationships. Also I’m assuming you are not in the US given the length of your maternity leave. You may have a contract that requires a certain notice period so you might Ben contractually obligated to go back to work your notice period. Also as someone else said you may have to pay back holidays or maternity leave pay depending on your contract.

            If you are in the US then maybe your partner could take some fmla time to cover your notice period? I believe fathers can also take “bonding time” within the child’s first year, though maybe the child is too old now, but perhaps he could take some time off in a different way? That would save you having to get childcare. Or maybe you could offer to work part time for a few weeks. Showing up on the day you are supposed to start back and saying no is not a great way to end the job.

            Hope you can figure it out. Good luck.

    4. Teapot librarian*

      I had a coworker use her maternity leave to look for another job, so instead of coming back to our boss and saying “you know, I decided to stay home” she came back 2 weeks before the end of her maternity leave to give her 2 weeks notice. THAT was rude. And also just terrible timing because I got a job offer at the same time (I hadn’t been looking) so my amazing boss, in an office of 5 people, ended up doing both of our jobs along with his own because he was the only one qualified to do them, AND had two vacancies at one time, giving the office the appearance of having a bad manager.
      All this to say that I think there’s a difference between looking for a new job while on parental leave and deciding to stay home with the child and not return to work at all.

      1. Thlayli*

        I don’t actually see why that’s rude. If the norm is 2 week notice then it’s hardly rude to stick to the norm.

    5. DMLT*

      Surely today isn’t the first you’ve thought about this? Either this is last minute panic or you’ve procrastinated until the very.last.minute.

      Go back to work, see how that feels, if you still want to quit give fair notice. That way if it is last minute panic, you’ve not made a sudden decision that burns bridges.

      If this is a well thought out decision you procrastinated dealing with, that gives your employer a chance to effectively replace you.

      With the whole front-loaded vacation thing, if you don’t work at all this year will you be on the hook to pay it back?

    6. SC Anonibrarian*

      It’s different here because leave is so shitty, but in my field here it is just assumed that people who go on maternity leave will NOT be coming back – they just needed to be able to use up their sick and vacation leave, and if they just leave they won’t get it. I actually got my job initially because someone decided at the very end of their leave period to just not come back. No hard feelings from me.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Wow, how strange. We always know somebody might not come back, but it’s at least 50/50 here. And yes, not very good benefits either – 12 weeks plus whatever leave you can cobble together, and I can’t even remember if the 12 weeks are fully paid but I don’t think so.

    7. Ron McDon*

      I did this!

      I was going back to my job after having my second son; I worked in a nursery at the time, so he was going to come with me and be in nursery on the days I worked.

      I brought him in for a couple of settling-in sessions, worked two days, then thought ‘what am I doing? I don’t want to put him in nursery and go back to work!’ Luckily my husband earned enough that I didn’t have to work, and also wasn’t keen on me going back to work anyway – he was quite relieved when I said I thought I’d changed my mind.

      I was reaaaaly nervous about approaching my boss. I though she’d be really annoyed that I was messing them around. However, she was really understanding and sympathetic.

      I offered to work my one month’s notice, but she said they would instead ‘pretend’ I hadn’t returned to work after my maternity leave ended. I wrote a letter dated prior to my maternity leave end date stating that I would not be returning, and I just didn’t go back!

      It worked perfectly; no-one was annoyed, everyone was very understanding.

      I was even invited to go back as a temp when my son was a bit older and they needed holiday cover.

      It’s perfectly normal to just blindly think ‘of course I’ll go back’ then suddenly realise you don’t want to. I would just speak to your boss asap on Monday.

  175. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Late on this, but I’m just annoyed I can’t be out as nonbinary at work without taking a big reputation hit; it’s still seen as this weird thing young people do by a lot of people.

    That aside, I’m a lawyer and the industry is a bit formal and more conservative. Still ok with gay and trans people and has strong nondiscrimination protections. It’s just this is new territory and more opportunities to mess up (changing pronouns to they/them rather than staying the same or switching to the one for the opposite gender).

    I wish I could wave a wand and make work as ok with it as my wife and friends are.

    1. Blue Anne*

      I’m really sorry. I understand a tiny bit of your frustration. I’m not nb, but I am a weird sparkly queer working at a public accounting firm in the Midwest. You and I should be able to be who we are, everywhere we are. :(

    2. Plague of frogs*

      I wish you could wave that wand. I’m sorry you have to put up with this. You are blazing a trail so that things will be easier for future generations; it’s valuable but not necessarily fun.

  176. Paranoid*

    How do you know if you’re rubbing people the wrong way? I try to make conversation, which is difficult because I’m shy and quiet, but either people don’t respond or give me funny looks. There is a certain attitude in the office, so it might just be how the people are, but I feel like everything I say and do is wrong. How do you know if it’s you or the office? Or both?

    1. Argh!*

      Group therapy is designed for exactly this kind of thing. You’d get honest feedback from people who won’t affect your career in a safe environment.

      There’s so much to communication that just can’t be pinned down in writing. Is your timing off? Do you look people in the eye? Do you speak too softly or deferentially? Do you speak about things you have in common? Do you get a different response when you start something or respond to something? Do you have weird habits like shuffling your feet or biting your lip?

      Or… are you just fine but your self-doubts are crippling? We can’t tell you that. Someone who interacts with you personally can, though.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        This is a great starting point, +1. Have you always experienced this, in your social life, school, and other jobs? You’re probably missing some social cues, and there’s some good advice above. Is it specific to work (other jobs and this one?) – you’re probably missing an element of work culture, can you ask a manager, mentor or peer? If it’s only this job, you might work with jerks. If you have one friend there, you can try to suss out what the rumors are. For example, the only time this happened to a (socially skilled in other elements of life) friend, it’s because other people knew he was going to get laid off.

  177. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Oh, the job hunt lumbers on. I keep reminding myself that it takes time. Alison’s book was a HUGE help in getting me to write better, more tailored, and even less time-consuming letters and I know that’s been helping me.

    But my god. I have a great story. I found a post on linkedin that seemed good, clicked apply, and go to the company’s site. The web design is like a head-on collision between late 90s design and current design. Think text way too big and busting out amid an attempt at minimal design. I re-found the posting on the company’s site and applied.

    Their interface is a gott-dang chat interface. Like every unhelpful customer service portal ever. This collects your name, phone, and email and THEN shoots you to the application, where no information gets populated. I put in my junky email and Google Voice phone because I was not feeling too well about it at this point. I was right. It would text to remind you that you left an application unfinished (read: fled into the sunset) and of course opted out immediately.

    The whole thing felt just shady enough that I didn’t want to be involved with them further and their glassdoor definitely reflected that. But that chat interface. It was like someone took the bad volume slider challenge from reddit and thought “How can we make the application process even WORSE?”

    Sometimes it feels like I’m getting a full body massage with cheesegraters but at least I’m able to look and not settle.

    1. ginkgo*

      “Sometimes it feels like I’m getting a full body massage with cheesegraters” – this made me laugh at the end of a shitty week. Thanks :)

  178. anon 4 this*

    I’m going through a mental health crisis and my boss has been very supportive. I just wanted to put it out there for anyone who might also be in the same boat that not all employers will treat you shabbily if you disclose you’re suffering and are clearly trying to get back to your normal state of being.

    2. mreasy*

      I’m glad you’re getting the help you need. I had a similar experience at my former employer, when I needed inpatient psych treatment. Then, in a management role, I was able to advocate for an employee who needed psychiatric leave, so she could keep her job and get some salary from the leave period.

  179. leave higher ed for consulting?*

    Has anyone gone from higher ed to consulting? Would it just be nonstop work all the time? I’ve been in higher ed for my whole career but in my latest roles have taken on a business intelligence focus. A recruiter contacted me about a role at a small local consulting firm that specializes in this and seems pretty cool. I think I’d like that kind of job – I get bored easily and like having new projects and new data to interact with. But my spouse is also a consultant and we have (somewhat older) kids so we can’t both be traveling. Has anyone made a similar change?

    1. anony*

      I started there, went to academia, then back to consulting. It’s much higher energy and often a high pace than consulting, with more teamwork and a larger variety of deadlines than academia. The politics are the same but different. The metrics are the same but different. I think it sounds like the pace and variety will work well for you, and honestly, I think it’s worth trying it out if you are getting bored easily. But know what you’re good at doing for yourself, what you need help/structure/other support so you don’t shoot yourself in the foot, and make sure you get what you need organizationally.

      1. leave higher ed for consulting?*

        thanks for your response! I’m great at being organized but I need stability – I’ve never been laid off and don’t want start anytime soon. And work life balance is always a concern – but I guess I can ask more about that when I’m further in the process.

  180. Petty Editor*

    It’s the first anniversary of the death of my former supervisor’s teenage child this weekend and she took some time off. She is open about talking about his loss at work. Would it be violating etiquette rules of gifting up to have flowers and a card on her desk when she returns?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d be hesitant to make such a gesture because I’m guessing she took the time off to grieve privately and having that greet her at work might set off more negative emotions than she can/wants to handle in the workplace.

      1. fposte*

        Agree, and I also think it sets a tricky precedent. Will you do it every year? Will you do it for the anniversaries of other losses with co-workers? Express your sympathy to her personally if she’s open to talking about the anniversary, but I wouldn’t go for something more ceremonial.

        You are a very kind and thoughtful person to think about how hard such an anniversary must be for her.

      3. Someone else*

        Agree. It’s not so much about etiquette of gifting up in this situation, as the context you’ve got here makes me think, while well-intentioned, this would probably not be well-received.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d do the card, I think. Maybe skip the flowers.

      I have been told by those who lost someone, that the second year is worse than the first year, because the first year everyone “knows” and sort of acknowledges it. As people move on and time passes, it gets harder, because people no longer acknowledge the loss. It might be nice to acknowledge it somehow for her.

  181. Lynca*

    I have a co-worker Jane who has been driving me and the other senior staff up the wall.

    She is incredibly unprofessional and very thoughtless in her work. She will text people on her personal phone while asking work questions of a coworker. Seriously she asked a question then whipped out the phone while that staff member was answering her. She asks questions that can be answered by reading her work documents or following basic processes. She talks incessantly during inappropriate times like training meetings, staff meetings, etc. She will forget why she’s asking you a question mid-sentence. Sticks her head into closed door meetings to make sure “this has nothing to do with her/her work.” The senior staff addresses these in the moment but the behavior doesn’t change. There is zero retention of information and it’s burnt pretty much all of her bridges. Jane however doesn’t seem to realize that. I don’t want this to affect how we treat her but in the current track I don’t see how resentment/disdain won’t occur.

    She had a supervision switch up that I hope will begin to seriously track these issues. They weren’t addressed by the previous manager. But she’s pushing us to a breaking point where it’s impacting the ability to take her seriously as a co-worker.

  182. CanadianEngineerLibrarian*

    How can I tell our admin (with whom I have an unpleasant relationship with**) that my preferred method of communication is email?

    I am away from my desk a fair bit and in many meetings. She phones and leaves a message that just says “please call me”. I cannot find any answers before I call her back as I don’t know what the question is.

    With our history, anything I say to her she takes as criticism and goes to our common manager to complain.

    HELP

    ** she has been here about a year and has actually yelled at me, has manipulated our general manager, and is generally annoying.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      So, instead of calling her back with the answer to her question, you have to call her back and find out what her question is, right? Who is being harmed here? If the issue is simply that it takes longer for her to get an answer… well, that’s her problem, and it may be that asking directly is important enough to her that she’s willing to wait for the answer. I wouldn’t do anything about it.

      If she’s complaining to/about you, or if customers/clients are the ones being hung out to dry, that’s different.

      1. o.b.*

        Nah, the issue is that it’s inconvenient for CEL (sometimes a total waste of time) and impossible to triage those calls without more information. Is it urgent or can it wait a few hours? Do I actually need to interrupt everything I’m doing to talk to you, or can you just email me, not break my concentration, and wait five minutes for a response? Is it something with a simple yes/no answer that would have been better handled over email?

        This is a personal pet peeve. SallytooShort’s advice is the way I would go.

    2. SallytooShort*

      Well, a reasonable person should accept a simple. “Just a matter of personal preference and not a reflection on you but could you please email me if you have a question? I find it easier to keep on top of emails than voicemails.” But it may not work here. (Obviously, the larger issue of having to work with this problem looms but isn’t directly relevant.)

      Do you check your email on your phone? If so you can just say “I’m always in and out of meeting so it may be easier for you to just email me so I can check it even if I’m away from my desk.” Even if she complains about that what can your manager say? That you want to be on top of things even when you are in meetings?

      Or you can just say nothing and respond by email every single time she calls. She leaves a message to call her? Email her and say “got your message what’s up?” (or whatever variation on that.) Keep doing it.

      With this person it’s best to have everything in writing anyway.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or you can just say nothing and respond by email every single time she calls. She leaves a message to call her? Email her and say “got your message what’s up?” (or whatever variation on that.) Keep doing it.

        I like that. Especially for the CYA aspect when you’re accused of criticizing her.

      2. Close Bracket*

        > Or you can just say nothing and respond by email every single time she calls.

        I used to do this because I like email and hate phone calls. Found out one of my coworkers thought I didn’t like him bc I never called him back (always emailed him back).

        I would first tell her, in writing, that you prefer email. Then start responding over email.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      I wish I had advice. Instead I have commiseration. I work with someone like this–not in the sense that she leaves messages, but in the sense that I have to tailor my communication to her preferred method with no give-and-take in combination with her taking everything I say as criticism. For example, I have to start every email to her with “Good morning” or the like because she thinks it’s rude if I don’t (she emailed me back once “You could say hello, you know”), and I can only include one question/request per email because she won’t read beyond the first (“I don’t read long emails”) even if the email is to follow up on three separate requests.
      Good luck with her. And if you find a solution, please share!

    4. fposte*

      Am I correct that you’re not her boss but are senior to her? I’d ask for what you want and follow up in an email; if there’s pushback, it’s reasonable to take it to her manager and explain the time inefficiency of her default method.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, this. And if being direct isn’t good enough, then you can fall back to passive-aggresive (don’t start with it, though): just don’t respond to vague voicemails… or take much longer to respond to those.

        I used to work as a receptionist and definitely preferred emails to phone calls. I still took phone calls, because that was part of my job, but people quickly discovered they’d get faster responses from me if they emailed me, and so they started emailing more often.

        As SallytooShort said above, you can also respond by email to vague voicemails.

        1. nonegiven*

          “Call me back” is not an urgent voicemail, to me. It’s a after I finish what I’m doing and then go to the bathroom and get a cup of whatever, whenever.

          “Call me back, I need you to take me to the ER.” That’s an urgent voicemail.

    5. LAI*

      This may not be helpful to you but I don’t have an office phone and haven’t missed it once. There wasn’t a phone installed when I moved into this office, so I just never bothered to have one put in. Every now and then, I’ll get an email saying “I can’t find your number in the directory, what is it?”, and I can just reply, “I don’t have one, please email me anytime!” I’m good at keeping on top of my email and people get fast responses from me, so I haven’t had any complaints. The few times I’ve actually needed to talk to someone and couldn’t meet in person, I’ve either set up a Skype meeting or used my cell phone to call them.

    6. LQ*

      Our IT department does this. I can’t check vm on my phone* but I can see in my email I got one so I’ll just send the person an email saying I see you called, I’m not at my desk, here’s the information, or can you help me, or what’s up etc…

      *I’m sure there’s a way I could, but I really cannot be bothered to figure it out for this one deeply deeply deeply annoying thing. Especially when I always put in my ticket that I won’t be at my desk so they should email me not call me.

    1. Anon Today*

      I just decided not to try to negotiate my raise this year. I got a big adjustment last year (which took literally a year of negotiation), and I anticipate wanting to request a significant adjustment next year (because my role is evolving again), so I’m saving up the capital.

      I work in a large nonprofit organization. What I’ve learned here is that timing is everything (negotiation has to happen while budgets for next year are being planned; there’s very little room for adjustments mid-year), and that my boss specifically isn’t going to do any advocacy for me so I need to be prepared to do it myself. In theory, after the organization does its annual assessment of the market rate for my position, he could move me up the scale (we can be paid anywhere from -10% of market salary to +10% of market salary; I’m currently at 97%)… but he won’t, so this year I’m taking me .75% market adjustment and waiting for next year.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve always just been given unsolicited raises my bosses thought I deserved. If I worked in a place you needed to negotiate raises for, I’d leave for another place. I work in schools primarily.

      1. negotiating*

        Sorry for the confusion. I don’t mean that you have to negotiate *getting* a raise – I mean that you negotiate how much that raise is. For example, your employer says you’re a great employee so they’re giving you a 4% raise. But you counter, talk about this incredible project you got great results on, and blah blah – so you should get a 7% raise. Etc.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      Yeppo. Non profit. So far I’m 1-3 (one time it worked, twice it didn’t) but that one time was enough to make me keep asking. I usually do it as part of performance evaluations. I come prepared. The time I was successful, I *knew* I was underpaid and I think they could tell I was not f*cking around and would quit over this. The rest of the time they must have guessed I wouldn’t walk away.

  184. DinoLansbury*

    Okay, I have a question. After a pretty long but very transparent and GOOD interview process…I was asked if I would be willing to accept a contract to hire role. I would not, as this role was advertised and full-time, and I currently have a full-time role with benefits, and would be unwilling to leave those. I sent this info back, fully expecting a “okay bye!” response, but instead received roughly: “Okay, thought we’d ask! We will check back regarding the possibility of a full-time role” but, that’s a red flag right, and I definitely shouldn’t accept this even if it does happen???

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      I think it depends. If that was coming from the hiring manager, you absolutely don’t want to work for someone like that. If it’s a blanket HR policy, you might still want the job knowing that HR sucks if your hiring manager is on your side. I’d do more digging.

      If you get any flak for asking, you have your answer.

    2. fposte*

      I can see a lot of reasons why this wouldn’t be a red flag, so I’m with Trout ‘Waver in thinking it’s worth asking why they proposed this.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      I don’t like it, FWIW. It’s like they wanted to exploit someone desperate, if they could, instead of compensating the job reasonably based on their needs. It’s not enough to walk away, but I’d look for other signs that their approach is unnecessarily adversarial or that I’ll be the only person in my corner when it comes to raises / promotions/ medical leave / whatever else.

    4. Anony*

      How badly do you want the job? I would not really trust them after that. Trying to offer a contract position when it was advertised as full time is shitty. Why was it advertised as full time but now full time may or may not be a possibility?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Also there are rules about the difference, it’s not just arbitrary! If they were going to treat you like an employee but pay you like a contractor, that’s extra illegal and a special red flag.

    5. OtterB*

      You want to ask, but it could be something like a budget issue. (Granted they shouldn’t have been interviewing if they didn’t have the budget for the position, but people do anyway.) Often contractors are paid from a different pot of money than full time employees, so it could be that they had the money immediately for a contractor but have to get the money reallocated or something for a full time hire. Not good necessarily, but not deliberately trying to take advantage of you.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        But only if they were going to pay you a LOT more as a contractor. They are taking money from your pocket if they make this switch last minute and give you the same salary, as now you become responsible for things they would have otherwise had to cover. Also, the point of a contractor is there’s no commitment and it’s easy to drop you – you want extra money to make up for the lack of security implied there.

  185. Teapot librarian*

    Question 1: You and your boss are going to an off-site meeting together. Your boss is driving. Whose responsibility is it to go to the other and say “you ready?”
    Question 2: You and your boss are going to an off-site meeting together. You are driving. Whose responsibility is it to go to the other and say “you ready?”

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Theoretical answer: You are both equally responsible. You are both going, and who is driving is irrelevant to whose responsibility it is to keep track of the time.

      My answer: I am responsible for both, because I am always The Keeper of the Schedule.

      Practical answer: It depends. If your boss is busy and sometimes needs reminding, you should remind them in either case. If your boss is a jerk and likes to blame you for their issues, you should be responsible in either case to protect your derriere. Barring any reason like those for one of you to take responsibility, see Theoretical Answer.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I am also always The Keeper of the Schedule but wasn’t sure if that’s a personality thing or because I’ve always been the junior person in the equation.

    3. Purplesaurus*

      I assume there’s some unspoken context here, but I think in either scenario whoever thinks of it and is ready first can call or go to the other’s office.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        There is, in fact, unspoken context. I’ve left it out in order to get completely unbiased responses. :-)

    4. not so sweet*

      I say the junior person should have coat on and say “I’m ready whenever” and then be prepared to wait productively (like, with something to read or texts to send) without eavesdropping.

    1. Madame X*

      I recently did this. I’m a science PhD that now works in biotech. There are a number of resources that I used to prepare me to get into the non-academic workforce. Versatile PhD has a wealth of information on how to format your resumes and cover letters. So I would definitely check that out. I also participated in a lot of professional networking events that my school set up and with professional organizations that I am a member of. I met a lot of people through networking events that work in the industry I am currently employed in. I set up informational interviews to learn more about specific career paths, the pros and cons of their current job, what skills I needed to develop to become a more competitive candidate, and how to find the types of positions I was interested in.
      What eventually worked for me, is that I reached out to some former classmates who work for the company I now work for because I wanted to learn more about their experience with the company. Later, when a position opened up I was referred by a one of my classmates and successfully applied to the position.

      I would advise that you network with professionals in the industry you are interested in. Find relevant internships that can give you direct skills that you would not gain through your PhD work alone. If that is not possible, try to participate in volunteer activities that can help you develop those skills (e.g. project management, supervising volunteers, fundraising etc). Also, are there ways that you can incorporate some of those skills with your PhD work? for example, if you are interested in a writing career, find opportunities to publish outside of peer-reviewed articles. Are there any more specific questions that you have?

      1. Amelia*

        Thanks for the reply!

        I’m running out the door but I’ll be back with specific questions later or next Fri

    2. not so sweet*

      Figure out how you can upgrade the wardrobe that fell apart and you grew out of during grad school, without spending too much money right away. (If you bought one good outfit to defend your dissertation, you can build around that.)
      Practise consistently getting up and dressed early, even before you start a job. Don’t do personal tasks at the office, don’t stay later at the office than your peers do, and don’t take work home often.
      Be alert for situations where your employer wants quick-and-dirty answers, reports, or solutions, although your comfortable strategy is more comprehensive.
      Get to know everyone at the workplace. Don’t let anyone think that you are disrespectful to technicians or clerical staff.
      What kinds of healthy habits were you unable to maintain during grad school, that you might be able to start now? Consider committing to a sports team or an exercise class, a choir, a potluck dinner group, a frivolous night-school class. Cook for yourself. Work at meeting new people. Go to the dentist and the eye doctor (you might want to wait til your supplemental insurance kicks in). Visit the family members you like and want to build closer relationships with. Go to the public library. Take sick days when you need them.
      Don’t rent a cheap room in a house with a bunch of undergrads. Don’t let your mother think that you are about to catch up for years of insufficient filial devotion. Make a reasonable budget.

      Actually, this is the advice I would wish someone had given me when I was starting a post-doc. Some of it probably doesn’t apply to anyone else.

  187. Ambpersand*

    Looking to make a career change soon- I currently work in the medical device industry and have a background in higher education. Both of my jobs for the last 6 years have been administrative and project coordination, but my education is in communication and social media. I’d really like to move into a marketing or PR role (even if it’s an entry level admin/project coordinator to work my way up), but I don’t even know where to start. Because my job history hasn’t focused on marketing or social media, I’m finding it hard to find an “in.” I will qualify this with the fact that I currently volunteer with a large rescue organization as a social media coordinator- so I am getting the experience outside of work- but does anyone have any other advice? I’ve been looking at some online certifications but haven’t figured out the best path.

    1. Nanc*

      Unless you don’t want an entry-level position, try for a marketing coordinator at healthcare tech companies. If you know the lingo and how to interact with medical professionals it should be helpful as med-tech IT purchase decision makers often have a medical background.

      There are several Healthcare Marketing groups on LinkedIn. You might join some and see what info you can glean.

  188. W2 Woes*

    So my husband hasn’t received his W2 yet from one of the places he worked last year, and I’m getting pretty antsy. I’m 98% certain I didn’t miss it in the mail…I usually get the mail, and I’m pretty careful about checking for important things, but there’s always the possibility I could have thrown it out by mistake. I’m going to scour my house and car this weekend, and then we’ll call the employer if we can’t find it.

    But shouldn’t it have turned up by now? What’s the latest you’ve ever received a W2?

    1. Ambpersand*

      Businesses and companies in the US are required by the government to send out W2s no later than January 31st. You definitely should have received it by now.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I still haven’t received my W2 from my former employer. They definitely mailed them out by the deadline, but there are just so many of them that there’s somehow a backlog. Fortunately I was able to call up an employee service hotline and they resent it to me in the mail as well as sent me a link to download an electronic copy.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I just learned (because I asked) that the place I worked at the beginning of the year doesn’t mail them out at all now — they are just available online. So I’d wonder if it’s that.

    4. MissCPA*

      I’d suggest giving them a call to see what’s up. He should have received it by now. They can at least hopefully offer an explanation, or get a duplicate for him. Good luck!

    5. DMLT*

      My husband’s former employer once sent out “preliminary” ones in March and a “final” one in June. We had to amend our return. We were not pleased. One of the many reasons for the “former employer”

    6. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      Call! It’s possible it is available to you online as well – ours are, even for former employees.

  189. Newbie*

    This week has been a crappy week and I’m so glad it’s over.

    I went on THE WORST interview earlier this week and I had to share it with others. First, the interviewer was not prepared at all. She didn’t come and get me until 20 minutes past the interview start time and didn’t have the correct resume printed out. She only asked me two questions about my work experience and then spent 15 minutes going into great detail about how overwhelmed she was working for that company, how unhappy and overworked she was, etc. She ended the conversation by making a pointed comment about how she was wanting to make it to the gym after work but would probably be too busy while she stared at her wrist watch and I took that as my sign to go. No longer interested in that company! haha

    I’m feeling very down about how long it’s taking me to find a new position. In reality it hasn’t actually been that long but my current work situation is very toxic, so it feels like it’s taking forever. Hopefully I find something soon because I’m feeling very miserable in my current situation.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes, but had you gotten that job, how miserable would you have been there? You dodged a huge bullet. There is nothing more horrible than looking for work. You just have to keep your chin up.

      1. Cute Li'l UFO*

        Absolutely this. Sometimes it feels like you’d do anything to leave but the reality is just leaving one bad situation for another. If someone conducts themselves like that in an interview I’d hate to see what the day to day is like. I am so sorry you had your time wasted by an utter garbage interview but it sounds like it definitely removed that company from your mind!

  190. Alexia*

    I have a question regarding references.

    In terms of my career, the last decade has been a string of disasters for me. My last non-contract job, where I spent a few years, was nearly a decade ago. Since then, my job history looks like this:

    a) 1 year temp-to-perm secretarial contract in a large accounting firm that does yearly reorganizations. I didn’t make the next year’s cut.
    b) another 1 year temp-to-perm contract as a proofreader in another large accounting firm that does yearly reorganizations. Again, I didn’t make next year’s cut.
    c) yet another 1 year temp-to-perm secretarial contract where I lost three levels of management within 3 months, 2 of them due to burnout. Once they reorganized the entire department to fit these losses, they fired me due to the change in workload.
    d) A few years trying to make it work as a freelance translator in the middle of the recession
    e) Going back to school for a new degree, two years ago
    f) Becoming a mother in the first semester of said degree

    Since then, I’ve been focused on the degree and motherhood, but needless to say that any references I may have had… have practically evaporated. Contract b) in particular was in an incredibly toxic department, so I would rather not have to deal with them at all. I know I have to fix my work history, but I’m not sure how to find a workaround for those references.

    The only reason I took those temp-to-perm jobs was that my student loans payments were large enough that no matter how much money I saved, it was only enough to last a few months’ worth with the student loan payments. Else I would have spent a few extra months looking instead of taking the first job offer that came my way. Thankfully, I repaid off said student loans a few months before I went back to school.

    1. fposte*

      Generally you only need three. Can you draw on one professor, one freelance client, and somebody from c?

      1. Alexia*

        I’m so bad at selling myself that I only got a single client early in my translator days… and he never paid me. I trudged on through several months of networking (see: recession) and then called it quits.

        The department from c had a 50% yearly turnover rate, even before I lost all my managers.

    2. Thlayli*

      If you are fresh from a degree, a reference from a supervisor in the course would be relevant. Do you have any freelance clients that would remember you? If not would any of your old managers from job c remember you? Maybe you can contact them through linked in? If they are willing to be references you can put on the resume: Jane Thorpe, supervisor at [job c], currently head of llama grooming at [wherever she works now]. That’s totally normal.

      1. Alexia*

        I highly doubt anyone still working for c remembers me at this point, as that job ended nearly 5 years ago and the department had a 50% yearly turnover rate, even before I lost all my managers.

        1. Thlayli*

          It doesn’t need to be someone who still works there! Someone who managed you when you were there or worked closely with you should be your reference. It’s irrelevabt whether they still work there or not. People move around all the time, if it’s been a few years since you worked there it’s totally normal that you wouldn’t have a reference who still works there.

    3. Boredatwork*

      For the accounting firms – Did you have contact with any of the actual accountants? Could you find them on linkedin? I worked in public accounting, and oh lord was it toxic, but if any of the old admins ever contacted me, I would be happy to say enough nice things to get them through a reference check.

      There’s a very good chance that everyone you worked for there has moved on, you can always submit the main line phone number for them to verify your employment?

        1. Boredatwork*

          I would reach out to them on linkedin. Even though it’s been a while, explain the situation and ask if they’d be comfortable confirming your employment and saying you weren’t terrible. The nice ones will say yes, the ones who are jerks won’t bother to reply.

  191. Concerned Employee*

    I work in a consulting office where generally a work from home policy is accepted and a big part of our corporate culture. I often work long hours and have to meet deadlines where sometimes it is more convenient to work from home. In the past, I have informed my manager and it has never been a problem. Recently, due to weather and illness, I have worked from home at least once or twice a week. I have informed my manager each time and have never gotten questioned by him. Yesterday, my office manager (headboss) called me in to discuss my working from home. Not only did he question if I was actually sick but he asked me if I was working from home because I was interviewing. What is your opinion on how to handle this kind of questioning and environment going forward?

    1. fposte*

      I think you should raise the issue with your manager. Ask for some insight into why this became a concern and ask if there are things you need to change about your work from home pattern. It could be that headboss has a bee in his bonnet for some reason, but it could also be that your manager has concerns and has not been good about sharing them with you.

      1. Snark*

        I’m just imagining people wandering around with iPhones and hitting the walls like sparrows – DWUNK

    4. Close Bracket*

      > Inside are work spaces, dubbed “pods,” also made with a lot of glass

      Give me an effing cube with effing walls. An office with a door is even better. I do *not* want to be on display while I work.

      I swear, I would start flossing my teeth and cutting my toenails at my desk.

      Also, I walk into opaque walls. Glass walls would suck.

  193. Snark*

    No particular question, just finding myself oddly excited about a work trip I’ll be on all next week. I never get to do field work anymore, so I’m kind of stoked just to be out doing stuff. But it’s not every week one gets to explore a weird, abandoned military site in the middle of nowhere that’s full of snakes and giant old creepy structures and ladders to climb, so my inner 12 year old is pretty stoked. Gonna have an adventure.

    2. Kathenus*

      That sounds amazing. I’m jealous. And I have friends who are crazy into herps who would be in heaven. Have fun.

  194. Environmental Gone Public Health*

    I interviewed Tuesday for a position that I think is a much better fit for me for a variety of reasons, and I am supposed to hear back sometime today or Monday about the second interview (which, from what the interviewer told me, is a plant tour and benefits discussion). This is the only thing that’s gotten me through the week at my current job.

    Boss Lady has got to have something going on. Monday she asked me if I was anorexic. Wednesday, she told me I needed to gain 20 lbs. Today it was attempting to guilt trip me into going to lunch. I tell her yet again that my workload is too heavy and that we need to discuss what to prioritize, which turned into a we’re adding another two programs that I’m in charge of and also when I give it to you it’s a priority. If everything is priority….nothing is. But we don’t need to hire another EGPH, you got this!! We’ll hire another public health nurse (for reasons unknown, since our nurse hasn’t shown any support towards hiring another full time nurse, and actively tries to dissuade this). Boss Lady has also decided for some reason to feel slighted that I won’t knit her a king size blanket (for free). I have never told her I would, about the only thing I’ve responded in relation to it is that a king size hand knit blanket will be very, very expensive, and a very long knit – that I don’t have time for right now. She also has manged to bork a few permits that I now get to go back and spend half my day repairing, and why aren’t those issued yet EGPH???! Because you f*cked them, that’s why!

    Very impatiently waiting on the phone call for this new position, to say the least.

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Oh man, that sounds like yet another terrible manager! Fingers crossed you get that new job!

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

        Thanks! I really didn’t expect her to turn out this way. She seemed great at first, full of compliments, full of support….then everything just turned into chaos orchestrated by a drunken squirrel.

    2. Ariadne*

      There. Are. S o m a n y things wrong with Boss Lady. Best of luck on the new position!! Also, as someone who loves to knit gifts, especially blankets… F her. Even a handmade COWL would be $300 with materials and hours accounted for, never mind a blanket!

  195. BirdyAnon*

    This is a rough one.
    Long story short, I’ve got new self harm scars on the inside of my left forearm. I have very pale skin and scars take a long time to heal on me, so it’s pink and raised and will be for a year or more. (Self harm originates from severe anxiety and depression, it’s been very well managed for six years aside from a brief (severe) blip, I’m in treatment, etc. etc. plz do not armchair psychologist me.)

    Hiding the bandages has been stressful enough, but the thought of warmer weather rolling around and me needing to keep my sleeves rolled down or risk employers–or clients!–seeing the scar is terrifying. I refer to my issues as a chronic illness, to offer an explanation for why I’ll occasionally blank out or need to take a second (panic attacks can look like a headache hitting if you play it right). I definitely don’t need anyone connecting the dots after seeing this scar, especially because the stigma against mental illness is real and damaging.

    So my question is twofold:
    one, if you saw someone with a horizontal scar (or scars) on the inside of their forearm, would you recognize them as self-harm scars? would you reevaluate their reliability as an employee based on that? (it’s happened before, but i don’t know if that was a fluke.)

    two, I’m planning on covering it with a tattoo. The tattoo would be more noticeable, of course, but the immediate association with mental instability wouldn’t be there. the ink would be tasteful, wouldn’t be my first piece (I have a bird on my right upper arm, which has been seen by all my employers at some point, and never frowned upon), and easily coverable by a dress shirt if the situation called for it. I also live in Seattle, so standards are quite liberal here.

    Thoughts?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      As soon as I read question one, I thought “I’d cover that with a tattoo!” So I think that’s a good idea. :-) But I don’t know if you can/should tattoo over a new injury, so you may have to find other ways of dealing with it for a while.

      As an employer or coworker, I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that you’re an unreliable employee. I mean, you’ve got work history, right? There are much better ways to display your ability as a worker than unscarred arms.

      I hope things are trending better for you!

      1. BirdyAnon*

        Thank you, that’s really relieving to know.
        Yeah, I’d have to wait until it’s well-healed. Thankfully i have a lot of very comfortable cardigans. Plus, the tattoo shop I go to has a four- or five-week wait, so I’d naturally not get it done until it was fully healed.

        1. Anony*

          There are also some very nice high quality temporary tattoos. My sister got me some that are custom made. You could use those for a while. Say that you are testing out different designs to decide what you want for the permanent one if anyone asks.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I’ve seen things online about people covering scars with tattoos. If I’ve seen them in person, I’m not aware of it. Glad that you’re getting the help you need, keep on keeping on.

      More immediately, while it’s cold you’re ok. For warmer weather, see if you can find some work appropriate loose flowey tops that have the gauzy long sleeves. I’ve seen them at work so they do exist. Maybe they’ll be enough to hide the scars?

      1. BirdyAnon*

        oh that’s a good idea. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me… probably everything else going on if I’m honest, hah.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        This, can you buy a light flimsy long sleeve cardigan for times when you just don’t want this to be A Thing. A woman at our office has a tattoo sleeve and we’re a more conservative crew – that’s what she does 99% of the time, and it’s totally fine. I realize it’s a different case but thought I’d offer it.

      3. Curious Cat*

        In addition, some light-weight cardigans may also work for warmer weather (at least in the office itself) until you’re able to get a tattoo! But I agree, a tattoo sounds like a great idea.

    3. anony*

      It might pique my interest if I saw a set of parallel, clearly intentional scars, but mostly if they were new scars/cuts.
      A single cut is just a injury and I don’t typically ask people how they got hurt or wonder, the world is full of klutzy people (and equestrians, dodgeball players, martial artist, roller derby players….).

    4. Morning Glory*

      If you’re in an industry that’s cool with tattoos, that definitely sound like a good way to go.
      Not that you should have to, but mental health is stigmatized enough where I think your concern about how it will be perceived is valid. The first time I saw self-harm marks on someone, I did not recognize what they were until she told me, but after that, it was something I could identify – so it’s hard to say whether your colleagues will know what they mean.

      As an added suggestion, my husband has eczema and sometimes wears large square bandages on affected areas during warm weather. This is an aesthetic thing to cover his red, rashy outbreaks because hearing the explanation of eczema is often different to people than actually seeing it. Depending on how large the area is, would you be able to do something similar on days you wear short-sleeves, with a vague explanation of a ‘skin condition’ until you can get the tattoo?

      Good luck, and I hope it goes well for you.

    5. Camellia*

      I hurt myself a lot simply because I’m one of those people who run into furniture, step through doors too quickly so my arm gets whacked good on the door handle, fall down or up stairs, etc.. I make up snarky/funny explanations, toss them out if anyone mentions my latest bruise/brace/limp, and quickly move on to the next verbal topic.

      I actually prepare and practice these ahead of time so I can quickly toss them out without thinking so much about it, because I get tired of explaining my clutzy-ness. Would that work for you? Something like, “Yeah, I got too friendly with my pet tiger! About that Work Thing…” Or if that doesn’t suit your personality, come up with a plausible reason like snagging your arm on a nail that was sticking out at this antique store you went to and boy, glad you had your tetanus shot, and about that Work Thing…”

      I’m not above coming up with a good joke or lie for something like this, and it’s something you can do right away and will make you feel prepared. Tattoos are cool but it’s nice to get one because you want to, not because you think you have to. A verbal defense might work just as well for you.

      I wish you the best, whatever you choose to do.

      1. Yorick*

        I wouldn’t do that. It might make people more curious.

        You don’t have to explain how you got an injury, you can just say something like “oh, that? it’s fine now”

    6. EDS anon*

      In my experience, people never observe the things I worry about them noticing, but ymmv. I have EDS and have multiple visible scars/often am covered in really nasty bruises that seem obvious to me, and people basically never freak out the way I expect them to.

      It’s likely that if I noticed them I would wonder if they were self-harm scars, but that may be because of my own history?

      Whether your employers change their mind about you as an employee is totally based on whether they’re crappy people, which is not always obvious, unfortunately.

      Anyway, if you want the tattoo, you should get it! It may help cover them up (although it may not cover them up completely), but I think the important part is whether you like/want it or whether you’re just getting it to hide the scar. If it’s the latter, maybe concealer/jewelry could help?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, I had a burn on my inner forearm recently. I’m very pale, like Birdy, and it looked like a huge flashing red light to me, but no one else seemed to notice. Not even family members, who would not have been afraid to comment on it.

        1. Morning Glory*

          This same thing happened to me a couple of months ago. I got a thin, blistered horizontal scar across my wrist after I burnt it on an oven rack. As it healed it looked like a self-harm scar and I was worried about friends and coworkers seeing it. No one has even glanced at it, even though my wrists are exposed every day.

    7. Yorick*

      Personally, I might not even notice the scars. If I did I wouldn’t necessarily think it was self-harm. And even if I did, I would feel compassion and not assume that this person will be a bad employee.

      I don’t know if those sleeve things that people who have to cover arm tattoos use are any good or too noticeable or ugly, but maybe they could work.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Dermablend is supposed to be pretty good at covering things you want covered – obviously they’d still be raised, but they’d be less noticeable if they were flesh-colored rather than pink.

    8. BirdyAnon*

      Thank you, everyone. I’m really grateful for the advice, and the reassurance. It has helped calm my mind a bit.

      I will personally feel better with a tattoo, if only so I can see something prettier than the scars when I look at my arm, but I’m really glad it’s something I don’t need to panic about getting on account of work.

      Thank you!

    9. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I agree with most of the others that people will probably not notice if it’s just one mark. But I can see why you’d feel self-conscious about it (I probably would). I’d go with the suggestion of some lightweight, long sleeve shirts or sweaters. Honestly, in an air conditioned office, I’m always in long sleeves because I’m freezing otherwise! And there really is no shame in coming up with a lie about where it came from if that’s what you need to do. It sounds like you’ve got enough going on as it is; do whatever makes you most comfortable & focus on getting better! :)

    10. MechanicalPencil*

      A friend recently had surgery in a pretty obvious place and was super concerned about scarring. She used Mederma gel to help the pink go away faster (after the incision fully healed). It’s pricy, but considering the size of what you’re talking about, a little dab will do you.

    11. Jake*

      1. Yes, I would recognize it if I saw it. That being said, I’m not convinced I’d ever actually notice it unless we spent a lot of time together. I would not consciously use this as part of my evaluation of an employee, but its impossible to know what all of our own subconscious biases will do to us. Honestly, my first thought would be whether or not to bring it up in a discreet and private conversation to make sure you are okay. After that I’d love to think I could remain unbiased in any evaluations I do moving forward.

      2. I’d definitely notice a tattoo. Personally, not a fan of visible tattoos at work at all, but if you had a track record of being a good employee, it wouldn’t even register as something to worry about.

    12. KR*

      Tattoo sounds awesome. If I saw the scars I would probably assume self harm or an overzealous cat, but since I was not raised in a barn I would never ever say anything. Someone who brings it up with you in a work context is being rude.

      As a former self harmer (all my scars are faded or not on my arms) I would not judge your reliability.

      Also I get what you mean about the panic attacks because it happens to me often. I also say it’s a headache or that I got momentarily dizzy (both of which are frequent health happenings for me so it’s a good cover up). I would also not judge and I don’t think I’ve faced a lot of wierd reactions when it happens for me.

    13. Nope*

      The tattoo idea sounds great. Tattoos seem to be pretty acceptable nowadays, especially if they can be hidden when the need arises.

    14. soupmonger*

      If I saw scars as you describe on someone I would notice them (because I notice things) and yes, I likely would identify them as self-harm scars. If I was interviewing you, I wouldn’t ask about them, but they would give me pause. Only because I would wonder if that person could cope with job stress, etc, without flaring up; would they be likely to need more support, things like that. If they were the best candidate, I’d employ them but I would be a little wary around them, I think (out of concern). I wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a tattoo.
      Hope this helps. I think a tattoo sounds like a great idea.

    15. Betsy*

      1) Yes, I would recognise them as most likely being from self-harm.

      2) My ex who self-harmed had quite severe and extensive scarring and bought a cream that made them fade dramatically. Unfortunately, this was a very long time ago and I can’t remember the name, but I was amazed how much those kind of scar removal creams can actually work. I know you’re going to get a tattoo, but this could be a shorter-term solution, if you’re not getting it done right away.

    16. Sci fi chicka*

      I might recognize the scars simply because of friend with same issue. Love the tattoo idea. For clothing have you thought about trying an athletic sleeve? My friend used those, some with a pattern, sometimes a “copper” type one plain black one. When asked she mentioned an arm injury and would wiggle around like it was sprained. People forgot about it (though she often wears the sleeve). Often she wasn’t asked.

    17. mreasy*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I also have severe mental illness, including panic disorder. I definitely do the “headache coming on” thing as both a way to mask the attack & the reason for leaving work when I’m having one I can’t shake!

  196. SelfStirTeapots*

    Long time lurker, first time comment.
    So I’ve been in a really great job being the FDP for Tech Teapots and I love the company, co-workers, commute, and overall vibe. The job has been about 90% administrative assistant-type work and 10% front desk (answering phones, greeting guests, etc). However, my job is a contract and since they’ve already renewed it up to the 2-year limit, I’m out of a job in 4 weeks.
    I’ve sent out applications and applied to a position internally that’s a couple of levels higher than mine (a majority of that job description is what I’ve been doing every day in my current position), however I’m starting to get major stress and anxiety since most of the places I’ve applied to have sent rejections, and 4 weeks can go by pretty quickly. Any advice?

    1. Close Bracket*

      I know this is easy for me to say, but stop thinking about it. Job applications are a fire-and-forget operation. Go about your day assuming nothing will change.

      It is actually easy for me to say this bc I have a lot of practice. I’ve applied to around 100 jobs with about a 10% response rate and a 0% hiring rate. Last time I did this, it was 200 applications. Stop thinking about it. Nothing good will come of that.

  197. SnowyCold*

    Out of office notifications: Anyone else find it annoying when people don’t use them efficiently, for lack of a better word, or not at all?

    I find it funny when a OOO pops up and text refers to a date of return four months ago…

    My favourite is that you get an OOO…and the email has no text whatsoever. It’s so just to the point: “I’m out of the office. What of it?” LOL

    1. lost academic*

      I think people forget to adjust both the internal and external message. I’ve had it happen when I was in a major rush! But I fixed it same day.

    2. Uncivil Engineer*

      My least favorite OoO message was the one that provided contact information for a back-up person but, upon emailing the back-up, I found he was also out and his back-up was the first person I contacted. Not helpful.

  198. GriefBacon*

    I am *hopefully* leaving my current job (that I hate) next month to return to what is essentially my old job (that I loved). My final interview is Tuesday, and I feel really good about it. I know that, normally, the argument is that you never know what other candidates there are — but it’s a database administration position…and I literally built the extremely custom database that they use.

    My question is about my current job. The work itself is blah, which I could put up with if I really wanted to. But the people in this office are a disaster. We’re talking people who wear sweats (sometimes covered in pet urine) and walk around in socks, bosses who don’t talk to their direct reports, people dropping the f-bomb right and left, radios being played at full blast, etc, etc. Most disturbing to me is that this is the administrative office of a juvenile mental health facility, and I have heard a number of different people talk trash about the kids or make fun of them for needing help. People regularly use diagnoses (or just “crazy”) as pejorative terms. I get that in HR/accounting, you’re not necessarily gonna be able to hire people who can do the job AND care about your mission. But it’s so disturbing to me that, say, an 8 year old’s suicide attempt is something to make fun of or laugh about.

    My question is how to bring this up on my way out, without coming across like a total asshole. I’m not entirely sure that I’ll have an exit interview — they don’t strike me as the sort of office that makes a point of doing so. But I want to make sure SOMEONE knows what a shit show this place is and how incredibly problematic the culture is. If I don’t have an exit interview, is it appropriate to send the HR Director an email after I’m gone?

    1. Radius20*

      Yes, you must let the right people know about the terrible stuff that goes on there. It can only help things and you will regret it if you do not say anything. If you don’t say anything, that means you are part of the problem.

  199. bff anon*

    My best friend Jane has a junior coworker Mary who is patronizing. Mary sends Jane emails that inform her of tasks that need to be done. Once, Jane didn’t get a task done quickly (there was no due date), and Mary sent her a long email telling her why the task was important. Jane feels tired being treated like an intern and like her experience has been fundamentally disrespected, but is an extremely non-confrontational person and has no idea how to express this, especially since Mary’s always ostensibly helpful.

    To make matters worse, Mary and Jane’s boss Kelly advocated to get Mary in her current job, and Kelly and Mary are friends while Jane and Kelly don’t know each other well. Mary and Kelly also appear to agree on basically everything, and they’re both new on the job.

    What would you do?

    1. Argh!*

      Being non-confrontational is a problem itself. It’s the underlying cause for a lot of workplace problems. Confrontation is GOOD! Not violent, disrespectful confrontation, but honest, respectful confrontation. If she’s not used to that, having you role play with her may help her come up with the right words and tone.

      I have a coworker who sends extremely long and detailed histories of things I’ve asked about. I don’t ask about what happened 30 years ago. I ask about what should be done today or tomorrow. When I get these emails I just don’t read them. I’ll check the first and last lines for an answer to the question I asked. She never follows up to see if I’ve read the whole thing. She’s really doing it for her own reasons, not any collegial reasons. Sometimes in person she does this too — she’ll go on about the history of some piece of software and all its predecessors, which I actually have a longer history with. Even when I say “Yeah, I remember that.” “Yeah, that’s what I used in 1995…” she keeps going. I’m just her YouTube audience, not a real conversation partner.

      If Jane is receiving substantial emails that somewhat matter, one solution might be saying (in person), “I’m sorry. I didn’t have time to read that whole thing. What would be the one takeaway I need from it?”

    2. fposte*

      I’m with Argh–I think it’s easier for Jane to decide this doesn’t matter much than to change Mary. If it isn’t Mary’s job to send Jane lists of things to be done, Jane can ignore those lists. Just think of it as how Mary organizes her thoughts.

      Right now Jane is, ironically, giving Mary the very power she wants Mary to have less of.

      1. bff anon*

        Agreed about fear of confrontation being a huge root issue.

        I don’t know that outright ignoring these requests will work. Mary and Kelly both come from another company via a merger of sorts and it might be seen as resisting change. Plus, Mary and Jane are assigned to work on a project together and there’s theoretically supposed to be a certain amount of give and take in terms of being willing to help each other out/discuss issues.

        Is there a way to say “Hey, glad you’re trying to help, but we need to establish that you’re not my boss and it’s out of line for you to try to mentor me” without putting Mary on the defensive or making a big thing out of it? Jane is open to the idea of saying something, but she has no idea what to say, and I’m way too blunt to come up with a nuanced reply.

        1. Argh!*

          Perhaps she needs to run it by her boss first. She could ask what to do if Mary sends a to-do list that doesn’t line up with the boss’s instructions or Jane’s plans.

          If Mary really doesn’t trust Jane, this would be almost the same as having a manager who micromanages. If Jane really can and does do all that’s required without reminders, she could mention that and say “Thanks for your help, but I don’t really need you to spend your time fussing over me. I handled the pink teapots just fine and I think I have a good handle on the whole teapot thing now.”

        2. fposte*

          I agree with talking to her boss at this point; it’s unclear here what Mary’s saying and whether Jane is supposed to be listening to her or not. If the boss sees Mary as a team lead, for instance, Jane really doesn’t want to tell her to back off. (My guess is that that’s not the situation, Mary’s just annoying, and Jane could ignore her just fine, but I’m not there.)

    3. Close Bracket*

      This might be a terrible suggestion, but could Jane reply with something like, “Thanks for the info. Kelly’s already set my priorities, but I’ll check in with her if I have a chance.” Of course, that only works if Kelly actually does set Jane’s priorities. If Jane is having regular one-on-ones with Kelly about her tasks, that counts as setting priorities.

      She could try an in person talk, which, yes, requires confrontation, but it doesn’t have to be a fight. Something like, “Mary, I’ve noticed that you send a lot of emails regarding my tasks. I typically [do whatever she does to prioritize her work]. I’m just wondering if there is something that’s not working for you. Were there problems you wanted to bring up with me?” And then have a lot of “I see. This is how I do things.” or “I see. I’ll check in with Kelly on whether she’s still happy with how I do things.” in case Mary says yes. Then ask her to stop sending emails and come to her when there is something specific that’s a problem.

      If Mary says no, then move directly to the “stop sending me emails” portion of the program.

  200. tired anon*

    I am open to advice if anyone has any: I am someone who cries when I’m frustrated, even if I’m not actually *upset*. I have my annual review next week, and while I expect it to be mostly positive (I have gotten generally very good feedback from my boss!) I have some frustrations that *I* need to address. Essentially, my company has two offices (in different states), and due to having moved sideways on to my current team I am in one and everyone else I work with is in the other. I am often left out of the loop when I really need to know what’s happening, because things are discussed and decided in conversations in their office. And while big decisions are often made in meetings that I call into, they’ll often get tweaked or overturned in conversations like that, too, which means that not only am I not aware but I spend time working on stuff that’s incorrect because no one updated me. (*And* it makes it that much harder to be an actual part of the decision making process, which I should be, and to get mentorship and grow in my role…)

    So yeah, basically, I’m very frustrated. I’ve asked my boss to be mindful and it helped a little, but we’re in the midst of a very complicated project and she keeps forgetting. So a) any advice for how to raise this?, and b) any advice for not crying? D:

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I just cried a little bit in a review, mostly because my boss said I was being too hard on myself, so: I hear you. Mostly I’m just over worrying about it. I’d rather talk about the real stuff than avoid it (the only surefire way I know to avoid crying in these situations).

      And not to be sexist, but if you and your boss are both women? I’ve never had a bad reaction to occasional tears of frustration.

    2. Penny*

      I do the exact same thing and it is SO frustrating. I cry when I’m frustrated/angry and it’s hard to explain that I’m not actually sad or a basket case.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        SAME. I also cry when I’m overwhelmed with any particular feeling. Most of my tears never have anything to do with actual sadness!

    3. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

      Sip water as much as you can; it causes your throat to open up so that you won’t cry. In terms of how to get your boss to remember to keep you looped in, I’m sorry to say that I’ve not nothing.

    4. Yetanotherjennifer*

      Stick to the facts as much as you can. Usually it’s the talking about how I feel that make me tear up. Could you also send your boss an email detailing the issue beforehand and then you can just discuss solutions during your review? That would shorten the conversation and keep the discussion focused on positive things.

  201. Dog Lover*

    To make some money while I am looking for a job I’ve been taking on small short term jobs taking care of people’s dogs and houses while they are away. From some people I know I’ve learned that a dog care center in the neighbouring city is going to be hiring in the next few months. My sitting clients have already agreed to be my references for whatever job I end up applying for, but I’m wondering if I should list my time dog siting on my resume or just include it in a cover letter. For most jobs I would just include a brief mention of it in a cover letter, but since the job I want to apply to is for looking after dogs I’m not sure if/how I should make it more prominent. Suggestions?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      If you have clients happy with your work and willing to vouch for you, I would list how long you’ve been doing it and roughly how many clients.

    2. Nanc*

      Go ahead and put it on your resume. Something like:

      Freelance/On Call Pet and House Sitter 2015-present
      Just brief bullet points of the types of things you offer in this service. If you do something above and beyond, like administer pet medications or care for rare tropical plants you can put that in both the resume and cover letter.

  202. Super B*

    I’m an EA at a medium-size company and there is this VP from another department who is so rude and condescending I just can’t. I’ve been to a meeting with her where after laughing at something someone said she just stormed out of the conference room saying that meeting was a waste of her time. This morning she walked in the exec suite with cupcakes and offered it to everyone but me and the EA to the CEO. WTF?
    She also has a sexiness to her that I find very inapropriate but that could just be a cultural difference between us. How can someone like that get a big job like hers?
    I guess there will always be people you work with that annoy the crap out of you. Any tips on coping, other than responding to rudeness with professionalism and kindness? (easier said than done!)

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have a method I call “Ice Queen Polite.” Be polite. Be super polite, but you don’t have to be friendly. Super polite is saying hello and being civil, but not actually being friendly.

      How I deal with this is I constantly remind myself of this: It costs me nothing to be polite. It also means nothing. Manners is how you appear. And appearance matters, but it doesn’t mean I actually have to like the person I am being polite to.

  203. Moldy Building*

    I started working in a super old building a few months ago, and it’s become apparent that my office space likely has mold/dust/air issues. I haven’t had asthma issues in years, and all of a sudden I’ve been having breathing troubles.

    I’m sure there are some legal routes I could pursue, but there are a lot of work-related issues here on top of it, and I just want to get out of here. I’m actively applying for new jobs and have a few promising leads, but I want to give my 2 weeks notice on Monday. It’s hard to go on job interviews when I’m having asthma attacks every few days!

    First question – I’m already in the process of interviewing with 1 company – do I need to let them know I’ve given notice? And second question – as I start going on more interviews and they ask why I quit without another job, what’s the best way to address it?

    1. Kathenus*

      Question 1 – no, you don’t need to let them know you’ve given notice. Question 2 – this is one case where I think the truth is perfect – I work in an old building with air quality issues and have been having health problems since moving there, so I’m looking for a new position where my skills are of benefit and where I can work in an environment that doesn’t negatively impact my physical health – or something along those lines. Good luck.

  204. lahallita*

    Any Feds out there? I’ve been (with increasing desperation) searching for a new job. While not putting the cart before the horse, I had a positive interview last month at an outside agency and just got an interview request for an agency reassignment to another unit. My question is a variation on the negotiation theme, it’s in my SF-50 that I had to apply with what grade/step/salary I’m at and both of these positions are the same grade. I can use a few bits of Alison’s advice (what value I’ll be bringing to the role in terms of awards and certifications) but I’m nervous about asking for another step or two. Thoughts? Would greatly appreciate any advice from people who have been through it.

    1. Finally a Fed*

      I just went through the fed hiring process and I was able to negotiate the step inside the grade for the position. However, they only gave me the step closest to my current salary (rounding up), and I had to provide pay stubs to prove it. They also negotiated leave accrual, but again, only based on what I was already earning. I think you can always ask for the next step or two, with some justification for why, but I would not expect a step increase. Perhaps some other feds are here that have experience with transfers between agencies.

    2. Long Time Fed*

      Is it a lateral move? I’ve not known anyone who negotiates steps if that’s the case. I’d be careful about negotiating a step even if you are going up a grade. If that’s the case, the raise will be the equivalent of a two step increase.

      In my agency, it’s normal for new feds to negotiate but not for existing feds.

    3. Short & Dumpy*

      The 3 agencies I’ve worked at in my 2 decade career would all consider you absolutely delusional if you tried to negotiate salary or leave. An existing fed who tried better hope they haven’t already started the paperwork on the official offer because it’s probably one of the few red flags big enough for them to be willing to withdraw an offer. Those things are tied to the position and your time in grade…which is why feds don’t have the gender pay disparity issues within the same positions that private does. If it is a VERY difficult position to fill, they will sometimes announce incentives are available in the posting. (I was offered a $15k incentive for one position…still declined it because it was truly an impossible to succeed in situation) If you are taking a downgrade, they will often do pay-match so, for example, if you were currently a GS-11 step 2, and took a downgrade to a GS-9, they would have the option of making you a Gs-9 step 10 instead of step 1.

      Managers can also put in award nominations for employees to get quality step increases, but those are pretty limited.

      If you are coming from OUTSIDE the feds then you can attempt to negotiate for the higher end of the position range but HR rules are pretty stringent there too.

    4. lahallita*

      Appreciate the input everyone and will not bring it up! Yes, it’s a lateral move. From a 12 to a 12.

  205. Wilma J*

    I have an interview on Tuesday for a position with the exact title of a position I held for nine months, four years ago. Since I was there such a short time, I don’t have the position listed on my resume. A lot of my experience from that role directly aligns with the role I’m interviewing for so my question is, do I speak to this previous position and if so, how do I word it? They’ll most likely have my resume in front of them and since it’s round one, I don’t want to come across as confusing or highlight my short employment. I left because the leadership was very toxic and I got a great job offer but my experience gained was valuable.

  206. Wendy Darling*

    I’m in a job I’m pretty happy with but it’s a temporary contract without 100% certainty of extension so I’m also applying to other jobs that are particularly appealing. A staffing agency contacted me for a job that looked right in my wheelhouse so I agreed to apply.

    Unfortunately the staffing agency recruiter is being completely inconsiderate of the fact that I already have a job. He expects me to do things mid-day with less than 24 hours’ notice, which is only VAGUELY possible because I work from home. He even asked me to do a same-day phone interview and got pushy when I said I couldn’t because I had phone meetings.

    Now he’s sent me a take-home assignment with a 24-hour deadline. Now, if the actual company I’d be working for made this 24-hour deadline that MAJORLY impacts my interest in working for them because it’s totally unreasonable and I already have a job with excellent work-life balance. I’m not leaving it to go work for the kind of person who thinks assigning an applicant something on Thursday that’s due on Friday is okay.

    But I suspect it is not the company. I suspect the pressure is entirely from the staffing agency recruiter, who wants to get me in ahead of other candidates from other agencies on some belief that if he’s first his candidate’s chances are better. So I straight up asked him if that was his deadline or the company’s and now he’s blowing up my phone (can’t answer, I’m working because it is mid-day on a work day!) and not leaving voicemails.

    My interest in this job is decreasing by the minute. :/

  207. Queen of Cans & Jars*

    Well, I’m always late getting in, but hopefully someone reads this & has some advice:

    I’m looking for part-time, professional level work, something in HR or training. I haven’t had much luck with finding part-time positions posted, but I’m wondering how weird it would be to apply for a job listed as full-time with the idea I’d ask about part-time if I was called for an interview. Or maybe note in my cover letter that I can only work 30 hours? I’ve known a good amount of people who have full-time jobs, but in reality only have enough work for about 30ish hours a week (which what I’m looking for). The company posted the position as full-time because most people need full-time pay & benefits. Is there any logic to this, or am I way off base in my assessment?

    1. PK*

      Have you looked at employment agencies? I’ve had a TON reach out to me regarding PT work for professional companies.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Definitely reach out to staffing agencies. It is SO hard to find people willing to take PT professional positions (especially for short term contracts).

    3. Undine*

      In the U.S. they will almost never downgrade a full-time job to a part-time one. This is because the position is part of that department’s budget, it’s allotted to them, and if they downgrade, they are essentially losing part of their budget. And there’s no guarantee that the larger org will let them push it back up to full-time later. Whereas even if the position only really has enough work for 30 hours, but they get it funded, then they have that buffer if they ever need that amount of work from the position later.

  208. PK*

    Question. I was laid off last month. I’ve had several subsequent interviews and in a few cases, some places are more concerned with my layoff than work experience. For example, I had an interview yesterday where the VP of HR wanted almost a play by play of the day I got laid off from how many people were in the room, what was my reaction, why was that my reaction, etc. It seemed absurd and obtrusive.

    Anyone else experience and advice on navigating this?

    1. Close Bracket*

      That’s pretty crazypants. I’ve been laid off, and no one, not once, has ever asked me for more info. First, think carefully about whether you want to work there. Then come up with a just-the-facts script that you can answer with. It doesn’t even have to be completely accurate, since it’s not like they can check on it. No company is going to give out those types of details.

      In my case, “It started out as a typical day at work, but once the first person was laid off, everybody, including me, found out there were layoffs happening. I was called into a conference room with my boss and an HR rep and told I’m been [put in actual words they used. I know they didn’t tell me I was laid off.] I was given my final paycheck, and I turned in my badge and the notebook I carried around to take notes. I was a little surprised, but we had been through a couple rounds of layoffs already, so it wasn’t entirely unexpected. My boss walked me back to my desk and found a box for me to pack my things. He walked me out.”

      Not included: I had the notebook bc I was called out of a meeting to be laid off. The layoffs were a surprise, but my inclusion was not. I had already gathered my things for easy packing. They don’t need to know any of that.

  209. nep*

    Can’t recall handle of person who was seeking opportunities in Kenya — just to note that I’ve seen a good number of Kenya jobs posted on ReliefWeb through the week.
    Best of luck.

  210. Cranklestiltskin*

    What do people do regarding away messages when you’re out sick?

    I’ve been out since Tuesday, but due to workload and events happening this week, I’ve been working from home this whole time. My office knows I’m out sick and some others do as well, but not everyone in the organization. I’ve been focusing on hard deadlines, so some smaller projects are taking a little longer or are getting pushed off to next week. I feel like I need to apologize for turning some stuff around in 48-72 hours instead of 24, but (the literally) sick and tired part of me also wants to say, sorry I’ve been out sick (AND AM STILL OUT SICK), here’s file, logo, document, edits, etc. you asked for.

    FWIW, I’m extra cranky today because I feel the worst I have all week and thought that all deadlines had been met, so I could actually just rest today, and instead work with Friday deadlines has just been piled on throughout the day.

    1. Pass the Kleenex*

      “Sorry I missed your email. I am out of the office today and will reply when I return.” The Friday deadlines probably can get done next week. You should rest!

  211. nobody really*

    I am currently working in a field unrelated to technology, and have for more than a decade. I am looking to return to web development (a field I worked in previously) with hopes of eventually transitioning to app/desktop software development.

    I’ve been working on updating my skills and learning new ones. I’m working on getting some certifications for both, as my degree is in history. I’m also planning on putting together a website to showcase some of the projects I’ve worked on recently for my certification classes.

    My questions:
    1. I know to play up the teamwork, deadline and detail-oriented aspects of my current job and to list the certifications as I earn them, but I’m not sure what else I can do on my resume to make myself look competent for an IT job.
    2. Is there anything else I can be doing to show employers that I am motivated, learn quickly, and convince them they should take a chance on me? I feel like coming right out in my cover letter will seem very naive (and I worry that if hiring managers look at the resume first, they’ll bin it without reading the cover letter anyway).

    (My current industry is fading so there’s not much room for growth or to segue into a tech-adjacent job there; any opportunities to advance would require me to move somewhere where the cost of living would more than cancel out higher pay, or take on a managerial role, which I am very much not interested in. I’m also burnt out.)

    Thank you for any advice!

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      1. Does your office need any low level IT support? Can you make yourself the person who does that? Things like volunteering to help people with simple computer tasks (making sure the caps lock is off before calling the helpdesk level of troubleshooting) can go on your resume. This is what I did when I was looking to pivot from admin work to tech. It helped that I had a boss who was quite happy to have someone on site who could and would work through a lot of the little stuff rather than having to call someone external. (We were too small to have a helpdesk.)
      2. This feels like a case of “show, don’t tell” – Don’t write a cover letter saying you’re motivated and learn quickly. Write a story in your cover letter about the time your company needed to upgrade to a new teapot management system, and you took the lead on learning the system and became the person everyone in the office came to with questions.

      Granted, neither of these are specifically related to development, but they do illustrate an affinity for computers.

      If you can use your skills in a volunteer capacity, that can also be resume material. The trick is finding an organization that needs a volunteer to do web work for them. There may be a MeetUp or other group in your area that can help for this. In my city there’s a “Techies for Good” group specifically focused on matching non-profits with technical people looking to do volunteer projects. Maybe there’s something similar near you?

      1. nobody really*

        Unfortunately, the computers we use at my job are more than 15 years old, and we only use them as word processors. I do help to update the website, but it’s literally copy and pasting text and nothing else. This is a very low-tech field. :(

        I am making a website for my aunt, who is a realtor, and I could definitely look for other opportunities like that. Thank you for the suggestion!

  212. LateToTheParty*

    I have sort-of fell into very office-oriented jobs since I started working and am realizing that I ended up in a career path that I don’t know if I really want, honestly. I don’t like being at a desk, or fluorescent lights, or planning where to put seats for an event so that there’s “flow.” It all seems very silly to me.

    I am in the process of applying to start an advanced program in nursing, hoping to draw on my childhood ideas of being a surgeon and, in my teens, a mortician.

    I’m mostly just posting to put this out into the world and hope for some luck and good vibes!

  213. Stranger than fiction*

    I just read a very lengthy article online about California employment law regarding salespeople that earn solely commission and didn’t see anything about this:
    I heard there’s a new law where employers in California have to pay commissioned salespeople an hourly rate if/when they conduct any training meetings with their salespeople. Anyone know anything about this?

    1. CAA*

      There’s no new law, but there was a court case (Vaquero v. Stoneledge) that interpreted the existing law about piece-work as also applying to sales persons paid exclusively on commission.

  214. Burned Out*

    I’ve been struggling with motivation at work recently. My company recently hired someone with less work experience for a significantly more senior position and higher pay grade. I learned that I have more direct experience performing the functions of the job than the new hire. And I’m expected to train him. I know he makes at least $20k more than me (if I’m being conservative). I know this type of thing happens all the time for a variety of reasons, but it’s a big de-motivator. I’m not sure I see a path forward for me at this company. Anyone else have a similar experience?

    1. UtOh!*

      Was this senior position posted internally, did you get a chance at it (did you want it)? Seems odd that you would be the one who has the experience of doing the job, but not offered it?

    2. AeroEngineer*

      We have a similar thing happening. The guy looked good on paper, but perhaps such a varied work background should have been a red flag. He makes as much as some of the top people (so A LOT more than the rest of the team, double or triple than some people) and so far in the couple of months he has been here, produced absolutely 0 original work (being someone who works in design, this is problematic), takes no feedback, and nitpicks other people’s work, and has not yet added something to any project.

      It is an insane de-motivator, and as well I am not seeing a good path forward in this company. It is unfortunate, as the rest of the company is great, but between the already challenging work and not-so-upwards movement opportunities, this de-motivator doesn’t help at all.

      I am going to stick it out probably until the end of the year so that I have a solid year on my CV (among some other reasons), but then I definitely plan to move on. I am being a bit more picky though about my next employment so that I can try to avoid some of the same issues. At least this year is going quickly so far, or else I would be even more de-motivated.

      Good luck!!

  215. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Things are awkward with my dissertation supervisor, and I’d love some advice on what is/isn’t reasonable to expect from her so I can keep things from getting more awkward.

    We’re not supposed to be working on it yet, but because mine requires some travel (my choice) and interviewing people from various organizations, I’m thinking about it ahead of schedule, and I’ll want to start doing interviews around the time most people are just subbing their proposals. Is it reasonable to ask her to look at my interview questions? Ask for advice on who to contact at each organization?* Read drafts of my dissertation once I’ve written it?

    *The ones I’m looking at are structured differently, so it probably won’t be the same job/role I speak with at each organization.

    1. fposte*

      How long a dissertation is required in this program, and what kind of defense(s) do you have to do? Do you have a committee and not just a supervisor?

      I’m used to US PhD dissertations, where all of those would be absolutely up a diss supervisor’s alley, but in another country (and for a master’s, right?) it’s harder for me to say without a little more context.

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        It’s 15k-20k words. No defenses. My understanding is that the supervisor is supposed to advise me (whatever that means exactly), then I submit the document, and then someone or possibly several someones grades it and determines whether I pass.

        And, yeah, it’s a master’s in the UK.

        I actually do have some experience with how to write good interview questions, but most of my classmates don’t. And I’d definitely still appreciate feedback on mine.

        1. fposte*

          Sounds like it probably maps more onto what I think of as a thesis, so I like Anony’s theory of setting things up to limit what she’d have to do. My gut reaction is that input on the process is an easier get than a draft read (kind of like with papers, where you can talk out your ideas with your professor but wouldn’t ask her to read a draft). I would either ask other people/professors in the program whether draft reading is a thing or ask your advisor in an “Is this done?” way.

    2. Anony*

      I think it is a reasonable thing to ask, but try to make it as little work as possible. Give her what you think is the final draft of the questions and get her feedback. Also, I wouldn’t ask who to contact at each organization. I would have a detailed list of who I planned to ask at each organization and ask her if the list looks ok. That way instead of having to think of who she would ask, she can scan your list and tell you if any seem like bad choices.

    3. Betsy*

      Advice on interview questions and drafts are completely normal and I believe she should help with this.

      I would personally probably only ask for advice on who to contact if she knows the organisations well or has contacts there. I sorted these kinds of details out myself and I think this could be good for you to do too, as it would show initiative. I mean, it wouldn’t hurt to ask, but since recruitment’s quite straightforward, it’s probably a good thing to take ownership of.

      1. JaneB*

        Please also make sure it’s possible for you to get your ethics approval in place early – in the U.K. programmes I work in, that can be a pain, but people who have done interviews without their ethics paperwork have had to throw all the work out and not use it in their dissertations…. and some supervisors are just not good at advising on that, or assume it was covered in classes (in our case, it is, but not until after Easter when most folks have picked their topic, so someone on your position wouldn’t know about it yet).

  216. Quartz*

    My co-worker hugged me today! I don’t know why. I called and asked him for assistance accessing a system only he has permissions to access. As I was passing by his office I stopped and said a quick “Thanks for the help on x!” and as I was walking off he said “Come give me a hug!” and embraced me. Yeesh.

      1. Quartz*

        I didn’t know how to react at first and he was coming in for the hug so I tried to do the sideways friend hug. Didn’t work. I felt really weird about it after I walked off and told my co-worker who just snickered.

    3. Undine*

      I had the “Don’t ever touch me again” conversation with someone at work. (That’s literally what I said, because that’s literally what I wanted.) Awkward, but I was glad I did it. The guy’s first reaction was “You’re kidding, right?” No.

      Obviously it’s up to you if it feels possible in this situation. It depends on your boss, your company, your personal style, but you certainly have the right to do that. You could say something like, “I was really taken aback when you hugged me the other day. I’m not comfortable with physical contact at work. Please don’t do that again.”

    4. Triplestep*

      My last boss – someone I liked a great deal – was a toucher. He was an equal opportunity toucher with men and women, and was someone who just talked animatedly with his hands, which would sometimes reach out and touch your arm, or (if he was at your desk) slap down on your shoulders and shake you a bit. I eventually got used to it. But when he found out it was my birthday, he came over to my desk, asked me to stand up (I didn’t know why at first) and hugged me. SO awkward!

  217. Lynne879*

    So I ended up deleting my LinkedIn because all of my experience so far (work, volunteer & school work) don’t relate to any one particular career field.

    Maybe one day I’ll start another LinkedIn account and make it more professional, but my LinkedIn account was kind of a mess.

  218. Not a Great Fit I Guess*

    Valentines at every job I’ve had has always been fine for me. Either everyone gets something or its just another day at work

    I’m already having a hard time at work.
    One of the team members has been weird and agressive with me since week 1.
    My boss said she has heard concerns about me but wouldn’t tell me what they were.
    And then on Valentine’s everyone on the team got a card… except me. It was a coworker who gave them out and it’s her job to be detail oriented so this feels deliberate. Might not though.

    My contract is ending in a few weeks (I was the only one not renewed) so I guess it’s a good thing, but I just feel so awful even though I was told my work was exceptional.

    Tips for getting through the next three weeks?

    1. Havarti*

      Man, that sucks. I’m sorry. :( But! It’s only 3 weeks! There’s light at the end of the tunnel. Focus on being professional at work but start disengaging. Remember these are not your friends. Practice not caring what the heck their weird passive aggressive issues are. Focus on stuff that makes you happy outside of work and pamper yourself: good books and movies, hobbies, friends, yummy food, bath bombs, whatever floats your boat. You’re on your way out the door to something better. Good luck!

  219. CA2TN*

    I recently relocated from to a new state and after 7 months of job searching I finally got a job offer today that I am very interested in (yay!). During the interview process I stated that my salary range is $55K to $60K. The offer came in at $58K. Would it be acceptable to try to negotiate for $60K?

    I interviewed for a similar job in the same industry and they stated their range was $65K to $75K, so I don’t think that $60K is out of line for the position. But since their offer is the midpoint of the range I requested, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to ask for more. I don’t want to lose the job offer.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t push for that extra 2K. They asked for a range. You stated your range. They offered something in that range. That said, it doesn’t mean you can’t negotiate for other stuff—more vacation time, flexible hours (if you want that), etc.

      I’m not saying you would get your offer rescinded, but if I were a hiring manager who got a range and made an offer within that range, I would be a little taken aback by the candidate saying “No! Must be top of the range!”

    2. Anony*

      What are their benefits like? You could use that as leverage to ask for more if they are lowish or even average. If they have great benefits it might be hard.

    3. H.C.*

      You can ask but I wouldn’t hold out hope for them raising their offer – they made their $58K offer based on what you told them you’d be comfortable with ($55-60K). That being said, if the $65-75K job you’re interviewing for made also you an offer, you can use that to leverage for a higher salary with the first-offer employer (provided it’s not a higher salary because you’d have different job duties, higher cost of living, etc.)

  220. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

    Okay, I don’t talk about this super often for reasons that will become clear, but it has bugged me for like six months and I just need a place to write it out and hear some feedback. Last summer, the office manager at the company I worked for was fired (she claims out of the blue; when I asked someone about it, they hesitated and said, “I can’t imagine she wouldn’t have seen this coming.” Which…was unsettling). A new OM was brought in right away (they’d clearly hired her before firing the old one) and people started getting let go like crazy.

    I was pulled into the OM’s office and told by both her and the OM from a different location who was training her that I was being underutilized (true) and that I could do more (sooo true) and that I would be training in like three new areas. I was VERY grateful because I was bored out of my mind and had previously asked for other things to do, and I expressed as much to the OMs.

    The next week, new insurance information was sent out, but it was an abbreviated overview of benefits that didn’t include mental health or bloodwork — both things I have used in the past. I emailed the OM and she responded with something like, “Everything should be there. What benefits are you looking for exactly?”

    I didn’t really love the idea of talking about mental health with someone I barely knew. The previous OM and some of the owners knew I’d been in eating disorder treatment because I’d had an adjusted schedule during that time, but I barely knew this woman and there wasn’t a reason for her to know. But, I wanted to know about my benefits, so I just responded saying I’d made use of mental health benefits in the past, and that I also needed to know about bloodwork. She sent my request on to our insurance broker, he got the info to me, and that was that.

    Except. Cut to three days later (a mere ten days after being told I’d be training in several new areas). I’m let go with zero notice fifteen minutes before my work day ends. I clarified that it wasn’t performance-based and was assured it was “just a business decision”. (I will readily admit I wasn’t a stellar employee during my last year there, in part because I was bored out of my mind. I got my work done, but I used my phone a lot. I’d never been coached, though, and, like I said, my work was completed.)

    Now, I know the owners had the final say in my being let go, and they were all very supportive when I was in treatment. But the timing of this is just bizarre to me. I know things change, but to go from “You’re underutilized and we want you to learn to do several more things” to “You’re not needed any more” in less than two weeks’ time was jarring to say the least. And since it happened RIGHT after I disclosed mental health stuff to the new person…am I crazy to think the timing is odd? I don’t plan on doing anything. I appreciate my old bosses and everything they did for me (though, considering I was technically their assistant, them not even being in the building when I was let go was kind of…eh…). It just seems so WEIRD.

    Am I reading too much into this?

    1. Reba*

      So sorry that happened, musk ox. I agree with you that at very the least it is … not a good look for the company. IMO the new person was out of line just asking you to specify the benefits like that.

      It does sound like the company is still going through some shaking up, though, so it’s not hard to imagine that plans really could change that quickly.

    2. AF*

      I’m sorry that happened to you.

      In the future, if you’d prefer to keep your health information private but see the benefits, you could ask for the complete benefits manual or contact the company’s insurance carrier directly, so you don’t have to disclose that information to the benefits person. They are supposed to be confidential, but supposed to doesn’t mean much.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        See, I asked for the full plan information before anything else. I knew they existed because we weren’t switching companies, just plans, and I had consulted previous plan documents about a million times while I was in my treatment program. And she acted like the abbreviated, two-page overview was EVERYTHING, which just isn’t even logical. When I asked for the full documents, that’s when she asked what I was looking for specifically, so I felt pressed to disclose even though I really didn’t want to. I was solidly in recovery at that point and felt that everyone who needed to know knew during the time it was necessary. I still wanted to see what was offered, but it was a just-in-case thing.

        It was just so WEIRD. If they hadn’t told me they’d be cross training me, I would have just chalked it up to another layoff. But that detail really threw me.

        (An aside: after three months of unemployment, I did get a contract position with a company I hope to be hired in to. I love my boss — and she seems to be on board with getting me hired as soon as is feasible — and the work’s all right, too. Contractor insurance is awful, but, hey, it’s better than marketplace by a slim margin and at least I have income.)

        1. Radius20*

          You have an excellent case for a lawsuit. I really think it would be worth it for you to check with an attorney.

    3. Windchime*

      It honestly sounds retaliatory to me. I had something similar happen; I disclosed to my boss (who seemed very trustworthy and understanding) that I had been out on FMLA for anxiety, and I could see a change happen on his face–he went from smiling and understanding to kind of pissed looking. And then the campaign of bullying and micro-managing started.

      I will never, ever again be honest about mental health issues at work. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        I’m so sorry that happened! I initially felt it necessary to disclose because the program I was in required that I leave early three days a week for what ended up being ten weeks (and, really, if I hadn’t entered a program at that point, I’d probably have been in a day or residential program within three months…it was better for EVERYONE that I do IOP). The office manager at that time was very understanding and the couple of the owners I spoke with directly were supportive. It wasn’t until that OM was fired that things got weird.

  221. The Wolf and the Turtle*

    First-time commenter here. One of my colleagues is on a leave of absence for a few months. I’m friendly with him and have sent him a couple of hello emails on his personal email, but am careful not to mention work. We will be hiring a couple of new people while he’s away, and because we’re squeezed on office space, my boss wants to turn my colleague’s office into a shared office with one of the new people. I can’t decide if I should tell my colleague about this while he’s away, or just tell him shortly before he comes back. Anyone have a similar experience to share, and pitfalls to avoid? FWIW, my colleague is a bit particular about his office and doesn’t like to have other people using it.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Does your boss know this colleague is particular about it?

      That said… while your colleague would perhaps want to know, there’s not really anything he can do about it while he’s off and he’s potentially just going to feel stressed or worried about it.

      I wonder if it should be you who tells him at all. I think his manager should be the one conveying this.

    2. Thlayli*

      Did he leave his stuff there? If I were going away for a few months I would assume my office would be used and would put my stuff in boxes or filed on the shelf. Granted I worked in a place where hotdesking was frequent so if you were out for a few days someone visiting from another office might sit st your desk, but I would assume in most offices a few months is a long time to expect an office to stay empty.

    3. Adele*

      This really isn’t yours to tell. If he has personal effects there, you might point that out to your boss and volunteer to box them up. But, really, let your boss break the news to the guy.

    4. The Wolf and the Turtle*

      Thank you all! I will let the boss deal with any communication about my colleague’s office.

  222. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment thread. Feel free to use this space to vent, get advice, or commiserate with fellow job seekers.

    My update: Stressing that I do not want advice, I only want to vent. Thanks for respecting that.

    Still looking. Applied to a few jobs this week. No responses from anything I’ve applied to in the past few weeks. My Internet will be disconnected tomorrow due to non-payment, so searching for jobs and applying to them will be trickier. I can use the local library though I’ll have to deal with the lack of privacy and limited time for computer use. My cell phone will be the next to go if I don’t find something to keep me afloat soon. It’ll be hard for potential employers to connect with me without a cell phone.

    I got overwhelmed with friends and family bombarding me with unsolicited advice and constant questions about my job search. I don’t want to talk about my job search or think about it all the time. Some were thinly veiled comments suggesting that I’m doing something wrong in my job search that’s causing me to be unemployed for so long. I took offense to that. I sent a message out telling people to let me be the one to start the conversation on my job search, but I know there’ll still be people who feel the need to give their opinions regardless. Sigh.

    I am so tired of being unemployed. I want normalcy again.

    1. Bob (not the guy that gets blamed for everything)*

      Does your county have a workforce center where you can access the computers and other employment stuff? My Mom harps on “think positive!” every time I talk to her but I just can’t tell her that’s it’s making it worse to bring it up every single time we talk.

      I’ve stopped counting the number of times I’ve been laid off because it’s depressing so I feel your pain. I’m currently rolling through being laid off AGAIN and I never thought it would be 7 or 8 months before I could snag another job but that’s what it has turned into. Fortunately it looks like I should have a few interviews pretty soon. Good luck with it! People don’t realize it hits your psyche hard to be out of work for a long time.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        “My Mom harps on “think positive!” every time I talk to her but I just can’t tell her that’s it’s making it worse to bring it up every single time we talk.”

        I have many relatives who are into church and religion (I’m not into it) so it’s “I’ll pray for you!” and “God will find a way!” They don’t get it. It does take its toll on me. I’ve been out of work for a year and a half, not counting the random temp jobs and gigs I’d get here and there.

        I hope you get those interviews. Good luck to you too!

        1. Tomato Soup*

          I’ve been trying to find my first job related to my degree for 2 years+ since i graduated.

          i have a really different world view than the religious but I don’t like it.

          yeah unsolicited advises suck, especially if they’re a decade old and thinks the economy is still the same…

          1. AnonAndOn*

            “yeah unsolicited advises suck, especially if they’re a decade old and thinks the economy is still the same…”

            Especially when it comes from someone who’s out of work themselves, which is where some of the unsolicited advice is coming from in my situation.

            The only helpful thing I need from people is either A. having a job for me that I can start at right away, or B. giving me the space and just listening to me.

            I hope you find that job you’re looking for.

    2. nep*

      I hear you. So sorry you’re experiencing all this stress.
      May something come through for you very soon. Thanks for keeping us posted.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I’m so sorry. I’ve been looking for a little under a year, and I’m still looking. I commiserate.

  223. Hana*

    Hi everyone!
    I’m going to graduate university this summer with a biology degree. I’m having a hard time finding entry-level jobs in the field to apply to, because I don’t know what to look for. So, I want to ask any of you who work in a science-related field: what are your jobs? How did you get started? What sort of jobs should I be looking for? I should mention that I don’t enjoy working in labs, so that may limit my options. My only real job experience has been working at a public library for several years, but I really need something full-time and above the minimum wage. Thank you in advance for any input!

    1. Banana*

      You say you don’t like working in a lab. What do you like doing? What could you picture yourself doing?

      If you prefer writing, technical writing and editing can be very lucrative–a good writer that can understand science is very valuable!

      Science teachers are also highly in demand, and you don’t need a teaching degree to work in a private school (in the US at least).

      If these don’t sound good to you, try browsing some broad job listings and read the descriptions. Try to picture yourself doing those things. If you can picture yourself enjoying doing those things, read the job requirements, and then make a plan to get yourself to a place where you would meet them (if you don’t already).

    2. Uncivil Engineer*

      I work with a bunch of biologists, though I am not one myself.

      My local government has a number of positions for people with biology degrees. Some positions are in a lab but most aren’t. The most popular positions are the ones that take samples in the field: testing potable water in various areas to assure drinking water safety, testing raw water before it enters treatment plants, testing runoff for storm drain outfalls to measure pollution, etc. There are also jobs doing work to get environmental permits
      (CEQA documents, EPA permits, etc) for construction projects or maintenance needs. These are the low to mid level positions. As they move up in to senior positions and then management, there are other opportunities like those that review and make environmental policy and those that are responsible for the operation and health/safety of water and sewer treatment plants and landfills. Other science-type jobs include the groups that study and make recommendations for these things within our own facilities: energy efficiency, reducing waste, recycling.

      Basically, if you live near a large city, your local government likely does a number of biology-related things that you are completely unaware of because they rarely get any publicity.

    3. Nacho*

      20 years ago. graduating with any science related degree would have been a golden ticket to your dream job. Which is why over the past 20 years, everybody and their grandmother got a science degree. There’s currently such a glut of STEM degrees that they’re practically worthless. What you need is a graduate degree now. That’s what will open doors.

      At least that’s how it worked with my Chemistry degree.

  224. The Original Flavored K*

    So, last week, I negotiated a transition to part time/PRN so that I could focus on my schoolwork. I explained to my manager that I could work 8 hours last Friday and this Monday, but could not work more than four hours a day after that, as this week marked the first exam in one class and a project in another, and I was also planning to put my dog to sleep. She agreed, and I made the appointment.

    Come this Tuesday, she was super confused that I couldn’t cover somebody’s absence past noon — when we had negotiated that I would work mornings only and I had already made my dog’s last vet appointment.

  225. Fenchurch*

    DING DONG THE COWORKER IS GONE!
    Wakeen, one of the worst people I’ve worked with was fired on Tuesday of this week. He has had a long string of poor judgement, entitled behavior, and general bad performance.
    Here’s what broke the camel’s back.
    On Friday of last week, Wakeen was scheduled to begin his shift at 8:30 (this is a call center, timeliness is important, and he is an hourly worker). At 9:30 a random woman called in to our manager, Terry, and said that Wakeen had overslept and was on his way in.
    He came in at 10:30, clearly severely hungover and barely functioning.
    Terry came up to him and asked if they could talk in private. Wakeen’s response?
    “Ugh. If I have to.”
    The manager asked him what happened and expressed concern about his inability to call in himself. Again, Wakeen’s response?
    “I OVERSLEPT MY ALARM, TERRY STOP RUBBING IT IN MY FACE.”
    Apparently it was all downhill from there, culminating in him being walked out on Tuesday afternoon (once they were able to find him, Wakeen tends to wander the floor for 20-30 minutes at a time).

    Thank goodness that’s over. It’s been 3 years.

    1. nep*

      If he’s been that horrible and immature all along, how the hell did he last three years?
      Glad you’re liberated of that mess.

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      Bwahaha! I burst out laughing at the “Wakeen tends to wander” line.

      Glad he’s gone!

      1. Buu*

        ha this reminds me of a terrible co-worker I had in an hourly job. He wandered so much we started using an online stopwatch, which we’d set off everytime he wandered. I think we had a league table to track and bet on how long he’d be away.

  226. Bob (not the guy that gets blamed for everything)*

    Question for everyone….

    I’m lining up some interviews and one company has good benefits except for accruing a half day per month of sick and 8 total days per year of vacation. Does that amount of vacation sound really low to anyone else? I’ve never worked anywhere that tight on their leave policies.

    Thanks!

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      Do they have other types of time off, like personal days?

      At my last company, when I started (almost 20 years ago now), I got three days of vacation and two personal days, and that was rough. (It was a bargaining unit position, so no negotiating that.) But I got sick time, free insurance, and a pension, so I put up with it. Also, we could arrange to work 9 or 10 hour days for a half or full day off (not weekly, you could only do it so many weeks a year). Since we had to work overtime, that ended up being a good benefit. I could work 11 hours a day, get a day off, and not use my benefits.

      They don’t have as good of benefits now, and the pay is still lousy, so I found a new job.

    2. GriefBacon*

      It probably depends on the industry, but I’ve found that 6 sick days per year is pretty standard. I’ve worked for several companies that gave 6 or fewer. 8 vacation days sounds a little low — it seems like 10 is the general standard. But maybe they have a generous holiday allotment? I can see a company that closes between Christmas and New Years having fewer vacation days, because you’re already getting extra holiday days.

      (I learned the flip side of this the hard way — took a job with an organization that has 20 PTO days (vacation and sick bundled) year 1…but no holidays. As it turns out, I really like my holidays and don’t really care as much about PTO as I thought.)

      1. Bob (not the guy that gets blamed for everything)*

        Apparently this company does give 1 personal day and 8 bank holidays which is pretty standard for my industry so I consider that a wash which is what makes me feel their pto allotment is way low. There’s a company in my industry that gives 4 weeks of vacation so you can guess they’re fairly large and can absorb it (not Google large Though).

        Anyway thanks everybody!

  227. Gina Linetti*

    I just had my weirdest interview yet. I’m still not sure how I feel about it.

    It’s for an almost full time (32 hours per week) job as a bookkeeper/personal assistant for a local CPA. She seemed nice, albeit REALLY disorganized – her office was a mess, files and papers all over the place. She also has multiple sclerosis, and says she has problems grasping things (with her hands), and also, her vision is going. So even if I get the job, I’m thinking it might not last that long.

    She spent most of the interview complaining about people she’s hired in the past – her last doozy showed up for work in her pajamas (!!!) and took off for a vacation after working there eight days (!!!!), then filed an unemployment claim rather than return to work.

    I was well and truly boggled. If this is what employers have to put up with these days, then why is it taking me so long to find a job?

    She also took me to task for being “curt” with her over the phone, which I don’t remember at all. I think she had me mixed up with someone else, but when I tried to (gently) suggest that, she insisted it was me. I was a bit taken aback by her bringing it up at all – if it was an issue, then why did she agree to interview me? – but decided to let it drop.

    Then she let me know she might not want me to start until AFTER tax season, which means I’d have to sit at home twiddling my thumbs for six more weeks. I told her (again, as gently as I could) that waiting that long was not an option for me. She said she understood, but she’d have to think about it over the weekend.

    I have a feeling I’m probably not going to hear from her again.

    1. nep*

      Odd, indeed.
      My question also! — If this is what employers are dealing with these days, why is it taking so long to find a job?!
      Good luck. Keep us posted.

    2. copy run start*

      Just as some of us are terrible at interviewing and great at working, there are those who suck at working and are great at interviewing. It’s an odd world!

    4. Thlayli*

      I would take everything she says with a grain of salt. It’s wntirely possible she is telling you incorrect info about her previous employee given that she gave you incorrect info about yourself and refused to believe you When you corrected her.

      Keep job hunting!

  228. Penny*

    Does anyone know why people from non-native English speaking countries write a full name as the salutation of an email? For example, they’d say Dear Ms. Hanna Solo instead of just Dear Hanna or Dear Ms. Solo. Is it a translation thing, just not knowing the norms or what? It reads so odd to my American brain and makes me curious since I see it quite a bit.

    1. ginkgo*

      Is it possible they’re not sure which is the given name and which is the surname, and are hedging their bets? (since some countries put the surname first, etc)

    2. Banana*

      I do this and I’m American.

      I do it because I write to a lot of people outside of the US, and I don’t always know if they are male or female, so I don’t want to use Mr. or Ms., and I am in a kind of position where I shouldn’t be the first one to use a first-name-only salutation.

    3. Shyest*

      Non-native English speaker here!

      I think this could be as much of a norm as it could be an option someone would use to “play it safe” when they don’t know much about the person they’ll be talking to.

      Since some people are really formal (wanting to be referred to as Mr. or Ms.) and others are more lenient or prefer a less distant approach (using first name), using the first and last name could be a way to play safe with everyone, or at least that’s what I rationalize.

    4. Tomato Soup*

      Im Chinese and we use the full name to talk to people becaue middle name is just as important part of the name to identify and call the person.

      My Asian brain don’t understand why y’all omit middle name to call people or GO BY middle name or a completely different nickname either LOL.

  229. Curious*

    Is it ok to ask what made your manager decide to hire you over other candidates? Say during your review after your probationary period?

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      I think it depends on your relationship with your manager.

      One of my previous managers, it came up organically. Our department was at an after-work gathering with alcohol and my manager was reminiscing about why she decided to hire specific people. I asked her directly then. We did have a fabulous friendly and professional relationship (I think she’s still the best manager I’ve ever had).

  230. Shyest*

    Hello, it’s my first time commenting here, but I’ve been an enthusiastic reader of this blog since late last year.

    I have a question. Is it weird (or seen as bad) to reject a job offer on a Friday night/over the weekend?

    I’ve been job searching for a few months due the fact that my job environment has become really toxic and disorganized to the point my department is struggling to work effectively and efficiently in almost any project. Sometimes I’ve been so feed up with my situation that I’ve sent resumes and job applications without giving much thought to the places I’m applying to (newbie mistake as this is my first actual job search).

    Last week I had an interview in a company that it’s one of the direct competitors of my current workplace and after, I got a job offer. Some of the details of the offer weren’t accommodating to me and my gut was telling me that this job wasn’t aligned to my long term career goals so I had decided to reject them but I had the worry I was perhaps making a mistake (being led by my gut feeling) or being too hasty and I should take some time to think about it. Since then (almost as if by God) I got some information about that place that made me realize my gut feeling was right and that this place wasn’t right for me.

    I didn’t want to make them wait until Monday as I understand they can use that time on more deserving candidates, but I also don’t want them to think I’m irresponsible or weird for sending an email on the weekend (even though they admit sometimes they work on Saturdays).

    So, back to my question, is it ever alright to send a job offer rejection on a Friday night or over the weekend? I’d really like to know what you guys think of it.

    1. Banana*

      Well, especially since you don’t want to work with them, I don’t think it matters. It’s not the kind of thing you’d have to be worried about later in life if you ever crossed paths with the hiring manager again and she’s be like “Oooh I remember you…the one who sent me an email on a FRIDAY!! I’m never going to hire you and I will tell everyone what you did!!”

      I mean, assuming you haven’t started a weekend drinking binge or anything!

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      Yes. I think it’s fine to send a job offer rejection on a Friday night/over the weekend. If they take it personally, they would have taken it personally no matter when you sent it.

    3. Drama Llama*

      I don’t think that matters at all. If you’re going to decline a job offer it’s best to do it as soon as you make the decision, giving them time to consider other applicants.

      What matters more is wording your decline email professionally/respectfully. Although you don’t want to work in this organisation you never know if you’re going to bump into the hiring manager in the future.

      Another side note – going to a direct competitor might be burning bridges with your current employer. Some companies are really uptight about this. Maybe it doesn’t matter at all in your company or maybe you don’t particularly care about it; but just something worth contemplating.

  231. leaf*

    Hi all. I’m currently an admin for a creative/events based area of local government. There is a job advertised for project management that I’m pretty keen on! Is there any way I can spin my admin work into what they’re looking for in this role – without any project management experience?
    I currently do a lot of different admin things, including setting up meetings, training sessions, admin work for department projects. I’m not so great at selling myself – help!

    1. o.b.*

      > Is there any way I can spin my admin work into what they’re looking for in this role – without any project management experience?

      You are the person best qualified to make this call! Without more information about what they’re looking for and what you’re doing now, I can’t say more than … probably!

      Forget, for a moment, the official designation of “project management.” In your admin work—or even in prior roles—is there anything you’ve done that qualifies as a project? Were you accountable for meeting deadlines, delegation/managing/interfacing with others, and ultimately the final deliverable? If yes, then… you can probably use this.

      Go back to the ad. Look at the experience they’re asking for and the responsibilities the role would have. If they sound reasonably similar, to the point that you’re thinking “I could do that/I’m already doing that” (albeit perhaps a bit of a stretch/growth from where you are now—which is the goal!), then you should apply. If you’re thinking “oh my god, I haven’t done anything like this … but it sounds amazing,” then start a conversation with your manager about how you can start developing project management skills, taking on new responsibilities, participating in any offered trainings, etc. If you don’t think your manager would support you, start digging around online for ways to build your project management knowledge and skills on your own.

  232. Career Change*

    Has anyone gone into the medical field after getting a bachelor’s degree in an unrelated subject? I have a business degree and am interested in the path to become a RN.

    1. Reba*

      Not personally, but I know quite a few people who are working as nurses or training now. They come from backgrounds in theatre, music, graphic design, art history, journalism, business, and anthropology. All went back to school for BSN or associate’s degrees. So my impression is that while college courses in biology and chemistry would help, the “unrelated” degree isn’t a big obstacle.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know a bunch of people who have returned to school for nursing. A former co-worker is now getting her DNP. My understanding is that people with bachelor’s degrees in other fields can go into MSN programs, but often they require some “post-bac” classes before acceptance. At my undergrad– a medium-sized liberal arts university– we had a post-baccalaureate medical program, which allowed them to take certain med school pre-requisites without enrolling for a bachelor’s degree. The co-worker I mentioned took community college classes for about two years before applying for the DNP.

    3. Sci fi chicka*

      Yes. Music degree, worked as performer for a while till injury. Then went back to school, worked part time and now a doc. I could still perform and do some gigs (and still play) but I could not practice the hours per day to needed to stay competitive. Though it made for some strange interviews I felt my non medicine work experience gave me an advantage. Yep, you can do it!

  233. In a bind*

    Hi, I’m in a bit of a bind. I’ve worked as a high-end EA for almost 15 years in the film industry and recently applied and was offered a position with a large, corporate, film company. I didn’t graduate from the college I attended, but always put down I did as it’s never, ever, been an issue or have I ever had someone check it’s verification. Until now. I’m wondering, should I flag this to HR now or wait to see if they actually run a check? Not sure which would be worse.

    1. Undine*

      We had a similar question last month. I’ll post the URL in a minute. The consensus on that question, from Alison and others, was that basically the best thing was to simply withdraw. If it comes out, they almost certainly will not hire you, and it could have a huge effect on your reputation.

    2. Reba*

      I think Alison’s response to similar questions in the past has been to come clean. Especially since you have solid work history now, explaining that the college on your resume means “some coursework” not “degree” may be surmountable … getting caught lying via a background check would almost certainly mean the demise of the job offer, or firing once you were there. Since many companies outsource background checks, you may not even get a heads up from them (e.g. asking for transcripts) that would be your cue to graciously withdraw.

      Slightly different situation:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/i-lied-on-my-resume-coworker-wont-stop-an-endless-flood-of-words-and-more.html

      Several commenters on that post have seen people be fired years after the fact when a lie came out.

      Good luck!

    3. Someone else*

      Did you put it down that you attended for four years and just sort of let it imply you graduated, or did you actually list a degree you do not have?

    4. Close Bracket*

      Do you write as “College date-date” or do you write it as “College graduated date”? If you don’t indicate anywhere that you graduated or that you have a degree, you aren’t being dishonest, and I wouldn’t be concerned.

      If you actually lied, I don’t have good advice, other than to stop saying that. You can call them, and then you admit that you lied on your resume, and that could have bad consequences.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      You CAN put down the college times you attended, even if you didn’t graduate, but you cannot list a degree you don’t have. And these things and and will be easy to verify.
      So, it depends on how you listed it. If you lied and said you have a degree you don’t have, then yes, you need to bring it up NOW or withdraw from the position.

      There is a possibility they don’t care about the degree, but the lying they will care about.

  234. Mimmy*

    Poll time! How well-maintained are your office computers and networks? Please indicate the type of employer, general size, and if you have a dedicated IT/MIS department.

    Reason for asking:

    The computer and servers in our (state-run) training site are, in my opinion and that of my co-instructor, are not well-maintained. Our MIS department is housed in the administrative building, which is not close by. We do not have authorization to install updates, load new software or fix any problems; nor do the two technology instructors, although I think of them can get time-limited permission for small things.

    It is really starting to get on my nerves, and I just wanted to get a sense if this is a common problem or not. My co-instructor is also getting rather annoyed because it can really hamper our work with our students.

    1. copy run start*

      While working for a state office: abysmal.

      Our tech was a decade out of date for most of my tenure. We missed the deadline to move off XP by almost a year, so about half the internet was inaccessible. When we got Windows 7, they froze us on old versions of IE and FF… which meant 1/4th of the internet was inaccessible. The computers would constantly nag for updates for products but IT didn’t have time to update your FF. Windows was set to download updates whenever and kill productivity by saturating the network. IT was centralized hours away, so when something broke you just waited a few months for repair because they wouldn’t pay to ship anything or send anyone out if they weren’t already headed to your location. I think overall, our IT people were nice and competent, but they just didn’t have the money to get modern hardware or to get enough staff.

      Our programmers… well they were just awful. There was one good guy holding it together, but he had never received any programming training so I wouldn’t consider him an expert. The rest were just college grads who’d get hired, realize what they’d signed up for and leave ASAP. The system was built in house, so there is no vendor to fallback on for assistance or expertise. It would take 30+ seconds to return a basic query and was frequently down for hours at a time. Instead of replacing it, they kept patching it and patching it to keep up with the law and bolt on new “self-serve” functionality so they can cut staff. Unfortunately they need staff to explain to people how to use the crappy self-serve portal they built. The state didn’t (and still doesn’t) want to spend the money to replace it, so this miserable program persists. It’s probably 15+ years old by now.

  235. Effie, who is pondering*

    So, this week the interns that I work with have not done strange, disrespectful things. Yay!

    Unfortunately I cannot say the same about our receptionist. I had a couple business meetings today and when my first contact came, she let me know that I had a visitor over our Slack (normal). I responded “Is it Wakeen?”
    She replied “Not sure, he’s still signing in. He’s good-looking, lol”
    I was really taken aback and didn’t respond. A little while later she said “Yes it is Wakeen”
    Then I thanked her and told her I’d be right out.

    I told one of the managers that I work with about the unsolicited comment about my contact’s appearance, and Female Manager brushed it off and said Receptionist does it all the time.

    OK but it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t care how my business contacts look (as long as they’re dressed appropriately, like clean clothes/no nudity). Since this is going to come up again, could anyone give me some scripts to write back to Receptionist? I want her to stop, I don’t want to ignore it.

    Also Receptionist is older and Business Contact was in his early twenties, which added an extra layer of ick. It was over text but I don’t get the feeling that she was like “what a handsome young man”; more like “oh this boy is tasty”.

    So far this is what I have:
    “Thanks for letting me know; please don’t comment on his appearance”
    “Got it, I don’t care how he looks though”
    “Hey, I appreciate you letting me know. I don’t care about how he looks though”
    “OK, I’ll come in a sec. Please don’t make comments about his looks, thanks.”

    As you can see I don’t have much variety. Does this sound ok? Work appropriate? I don’t care too much if she gets huffy as long as she keeps doing her job (ie letting me know when visitors and food are here, etc)

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      Argh NOW I realize I could have messaged Receptionist after Wakeen left and said “Hey, thanks for letting me know when Wakeen got here. Next time, please don’t make comments about my contact’s appearance. Thanks!” Hindsight is 20/20 …

      Well any advice for future interactions would be appreciated!

    2. nep*

      Definitely not appropriate.
      I think simple, polite, direct. Your first one sounds good — ‘Thanks for letting me know. Please don’t comment on people’s appearance.’ Something along those lines is fine.
      I was really taken aback a couple weeks ago when a colleague made a lot of remarks about the looks of a young man she was hiring. To the point of passing round a link to an IG photo. (A different department and I was not directly involved — heard about it and heard some of the comments. When I was there and part of a conversation I did chime in that it was not appropriate — adding that there’s no way we’d accept any of that were it a woman. But I got the sense some people still saw it as a joke.)
      I’ll be interested to hear how the receptionist takes it if/when you bring it up.

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Thanks nep. Glad to hear and I’m planning to report back once this happens again, provided I retain enough of my wits to stay calm and matter-of-fact. It’s over chat so at least there’s that!

        Yeah, just because someone’s younger doesn’t mean you can treat them like a show dog! I feel like if you’re hiring someone younger it’s okay to say that their appearance could use polishing so they appear more mature or you were impressed by how polished they appear despite their youth, but other than that it gets sketchy really quickly.

    3. Reba*

      I think any of your scripts are good. If she huffs about it, you can try, “It makes me uncomfortable, thanks for understanding” and/or “I don’t think our guests would like it if they knew people talked about them this way.”

      Lots of people might see this as a small thing but I think it’s good you want to push back.

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Thank you Reba! Appreciate your comment and support :)

        I am sensitive to stuff like this, and it grosses me out. I’m happy to be the one who first notices that we’re sitting in muck and start trying to get out of it while everyone else is oblivious to the muck. If it’s a good company we’ll all get there eventually (I’m new to the company, less than 6 months)

        1. Reba*

          I also think it’s awesome you can do this over Slack. Tone and delivery matter, but I think it would make it easier to start speaking up to type it! And there’s always emoji.

          1. nep*

            (And how out of it am I that I learned of Slack only this week, listening to a podcast the other day. Jeeeeeez.)

    4. anonagain*

      The fact that the receptionist does it all the time doesn’t somehow make it okay. It also isn’t okay just because the receptionist is a woman talking about a man, which I suspect is feeding into the manager’s complacency.

      “I am not comfortable with those kinds of comments. Please stop.” or “I don’t think that’s appropriate. Please don’t talk about our colleagues like that.”

      I think preparing ahead of time, as you’re doing, will help. I also think saying something is the most important thing. It sounds like so far no one has really said anything and so you’ll be doing something constructive by taking that first step.

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Exactly! Not Okay.

        I think your scripts are good for escalating. I don’t want to start off with that, sounds a bit too harsh. If she’ll stop at “Please stop” then that’s a win and if she doesn’t I’m fine to add “I am not comfortable/I don’t think that’s appropriate”

  236. Call Center No More*

    I just had my last day at a call center (I’m moving out of state) and while my overall experience was good, there were a couple of things that bugged me. The main issue that I had was the strict attendance policy, particularly when employees called out sick. I do understand that the managers needed to ensure we had enough staff to assist our customers, but it was a pain at times.

    Since we were answering phones, our way of clocking in was to log into our phone system. You had to be at your desk and logged in by the start of your shift or else you would be considered late. Lateness/absences weren’t directly punished, but they would give you what they call an occurrence as a mark against you. 1 minute to 3 hours late was half an occurrence and 3+ hours was a full occurrence (the occurrences would fall off of your record after 60 days.) If you accrued 3 occurrences combined at one time, then you would receive a written warning and any additional lateness/absences would lead to further action. While it was a struggle for me (I have ADHD and I’m still working on time management/sense of time) I learned to adapt to it. But, I discovered, that when employees called out sick and even if they could provide a doctor’s note, they were given an occurrence for their absence. We do have paid sick time and the one time that I called out sick, I was still paid for the day, but received an occurrence because it was an “unplanned absence.” It was written in our attendance policy, but I still think it is not fair to the phone reps to choose between their own health/the health of our coworkers and possibly being written up due to absences. I’m sure there was some leeway given in specific situations but I was never a fan of the policy as a whole. Has anyone had experience with similar policies?

    There was also the time that I went to apply for another position in the company (one that was in my field and I had expressed interest in several times) but was told that the policy had changed from waiting 6 months after being hired for a department to waiting a full year. I was less than a month away from the 1 year mark and this was the first that I heard of the policy change. I went to the main HR person in our office and asked if they could give me a date for when it went into effect and they said they didn’t have a specific date. I also asked if the employee handbook had been updated and they said no. We had a recent hire in our department and she had been told the 6 month policy as well. I never ended up working in that department, but oh well.

    1. Jessen*

      Yeah, ours has “unplanned time” which is any time you didn’t schedule off in advance. We actually don’t get written up or anything, but people have definitely been told they’re not up for promotions and can’t get bonuses because they used sick time.

  237. Time Off Trouble*

    Has anyone ever had trouble with their supervisors approving their time off? I searched the archives for this, and unfortunately the most similar situation didn’t have advice that I could use. I submitted a time off request for a day next week, and my boss still hasn’t confirmed that I can have the day off. It is for an interview, which is part of the reason why I’m getting nervous. For context, I know that my supervisor has seen my request because they asked me where I was planning to be on that day (I requested for a non-Monday or Friday date). I’m worried I may have made it obvious that it’s for an interview because I didn’t really answer the question (my boss has never asked for a reason for time off before, so it kind of threw me off). I did follow up on the status of my request, and gave a vague/generic reason for wanting the day off. No response yet. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but I’m nervous my boss may have figured it out and is trying to sabotage me. But I don’t know what options I have left. Any advice? I’ve had friends tell me to just call in sick that day, but I feel like that will look really suspicious.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Never call in sick on a day you have asked to have off. Managers are hip to that. Everybody is hip to that.

      Tell your boss it’s for a personal matter. Or give a giant, sh!t-eating grin and say, “I’m interviewing!”

      1. Time Off Trouble*

        I’m trying to avoid confirming that I’m interviewing at this point, and I basically gave the personal matter reason when I followed up on my request. My question was more along the lines of “what do I do if my boss never confirms that I can have the day off?”

    2. Thlayli*

      Go into boss on Monday morning and find out for sure if you can have it. Stick to the personal issue or personal appointment story and tell him you need an answer by lunchtime or you will have to cancel the appointment and rearrange and if you can’t have that day off you will need another day in next two weeks. He will probably approve. If not go to hr because this is presumably your PTO which is a benefit of your job you’re entitled to.

      1. Time Off Trouble*

        That’s helpful! I’ve been trying to limit discussing things in person with my boss because conversations with them last way too long (simple yes or no answers take like five minutes of my time) so it’s easier for me to “manage my manager” via email :/ this May or may not be part of the reason why I’m trying to leave. I guess I’m also worried that they are actually going to say no (but they wouldn’t have a compelling reason to. No one else has requested this day off, and I’ve already outlined a plan for completing my projects that week). I really don’t want to be a pain to work with already for my prospective employer by asking for another interview date and time (they gave me a specific time they want me to come in) and potentially jeopardize my chances of getting the job before they even meet me. Im also not sure how much I can trust our HR rep to be honest…

  238. Jenn*

    Need advice- Wednesday was my first day at a new job. They were discussing how busy Friday (today) was going to be. I told them I could come in if they needed. The manager stated “oh wow, that would be cool”, and then I never heard another thing about it. Before I left for the day I looked at the schedule and didn’t see my name, and it seemed like they had enough people. No one had brought it up to me again. I assumed they didn’t need me, cancelled daycare for my kiddo, and slept in today. Got a call about 9 o’clock asking if I was coming in. I was horrified! I feel terrible and have been beating myself up all day! I couldn’t go in because I didn’t have daycare available, and family members were working. The manager was nice, said it was a misunderstanding, and that she would see me next week. I offered to work an extra day next week and they put me on the schedule. But I still can’t stop thinking about it! I basically ncns on my SECOND day! Husband says I’m blowing it out of proportion. How would you respond/feel if an employee did this?

    1. nep*

      I’m sure you’re thinking about it a lot more than your manager and coworkers. I can understand that it felt awful, given that you just started. I’d feel the same way. But you can’t back up and undo it, and dwelling on it will only steal your precious energy.
      Easier said than done, of course — but do your best to put it behind you. Be the absolute best you can be from here on out. Cancel out any negatives attached to this instance by creating a lot of positives.
      Good luck at the new job.

      1. nep*

        P.S. And it was, after all, a misunderstanding.
        I reckon you’ll do this anyway — I’m thinking a lesson learned is that in future it might pay to be extra careful about confirming with coworkers should this ever come up again, even though it appeared that they shouldn’t have expected you.

        1. Jenn*

          Yep, lesson definitely learned. Why is it so very easy to forgive other but never ourselves? Going to try to put it behind me and move on. You’re right, there’s no going back in time. Thanks for the response!

          1. nep*

            You’re so right. You’d have completely forgiven a colleague for something like this, being kind and understanding. That’s a good perspective to take.
            We sure do beat ourselves up, don’t we.

    2. UtOh!*

      This was absolutely a misunderstanding and you should not beat yourself up about…one thing I would suggest next time is to get clarification/confirmation from your manager before you leave that you will or will not be needed on a particular day you have volunteered to cover. That way you are checking in, and also confirming you are a team player with your willingness. I’m sure when you are back in the office next week you will find it was not a big deal AT all. Have a great weekend!

  239. blaise zamboni*

    For those of you with remote positions or roles that allow you to WFH regularly–what general job and/or industry are you in?

    I have a friend who is very competent and driven, but not towards any particular industry or role. She’s starting to plan out a serious career path, but she’s pretty ambivalent about the subject matter of her day-to-day work and cares a lot more about having certain benefits, namely WFH. We talked about possible directions she could take recently and I was totally stumped.

    I know this topic has been discussed a lot, so I would also appreciate links to similar comment threads if there are recent ones–I’m not great at navigating the open threads, but I know this community has a wealth of knowledge and wisdom!

    Thank you in advance if you share. Happy Friday, and happy long weekend!

    1. LNLN*

      I work for a US health insurance company and we have whole teams that work from home. All our supervisors and managers WFH, as well. I have teammates who live all over the country.

    5. NacSacJack*

      I work in IT for a major insurance company. My job is development and programming, no interaction with people around me. I could work from home more often, but I tend not to want to rock the boat and I like to see my coffee buddies. However, working from home 5 days a week would probably not go over well at my office even though I’m remote from my project team members and my boss.

      I have a friend that worked for several years from home and so did the rest of his team. They were in cybersecurity for a major defense contractor.

  240. DrWombat*

    So on the plus side, finally got the official offer letter from the university, so I can submit pay verification to apply for an apartment, and I can start to budget. I successfully negotiated relocation as well (enough to pay for 2/3 of the moving truck at least), which isn’t typical for postdocs, so I’m quite pleased. I thank the blog here for giving me the gumption to ask ^^

    On the more anxiety inducing side…I formally withdrew my candidacy from the other places I’d applied this week. They indicated that they were quite disappointed to not have gotten to at least interview me, which was an odd feeling. I know I made the right choice and admittedly I wasn’t expecting to be offered the job I took right when I interviewed, but it’s a perfect fit for what I want to do and I really like the team I’ll be working with. I am very excited to do this and can’t wait to start the new position ^^

    But seeing these people saying they would’ve liked to have had a chance to interview/hire me…and I just got another ‘hey I heard from a colleague of mine about you, I am looking for a postdoc, would you be interested’ email. Like…I can give fifty reasons why the job I took was the right choice. It is the best choice of anything I have been offered, and I am super stoked. It will be a wonderful job and I cannot wait to start. But emails like this, as flattering as they are, keep spiking that little ‘did I choose right’ anxiety button even though I know I made the right decision. Anyone have tips for dealing with that feeling?

    One month out from my defense/exit seminar! I am super excited, and super nervous, and just a bit of a mess emotionally. But an excited mess at least?

    1. Thlayli*

      Congratulations. You are happy with the new job. Forget about the what-ifs and go be happy. If you’re a postdoc you’ll be back on the market in 2 years or so right? So reply to them all and say my contract will end in February 2020 or whatever and I will be back in touch closer to that time. Then start emailing them all 6 months or so before your contract ends.

      1. DrWombat*

        The contract isn’t really a fixed time period, but I know I’ll be there at least a year. It just kind of depends on the projects, it seems. But thanks for the advice! I appreciate the reassurance ^^

    2. Wrench Turner*

      You have the right to be happy here and now, to enjoy the choice you made. You also have the right to change your mind later. Enjoy the now. If it doesn’t work out or something better comes along, enjoy that, too. You don’t owe anyone but yourself anything.
      Congratulations. These programs are super hard. You’ve earned it.

  241. Drama Llama*

    This is a non-work work question. My friend has been struggling to find a job for five months. Before that, she went through three jobs in four years due to bad luck – first boss was a notorious bully, second frequently did not pay on time, the third went broke and had to make a lot of staff redundant. So now her resume doesn’t look that great either.

    The only time I’ve gone through a long period of unemployment was when I was a recent graduate. Most of my friends struggled to find jobs at the time so it was on the lower end of the unemployment stress spectrum. Now that she’s in her 30s with a mortgage and eating through her savings, it’s understandably a lot tougher.

    What’s the best way to support someone in this situation? If you’ve been there, what did you find helpful or not helpful?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      In 2009 in the midst of the crash I spent almost a year trying to find work -anything!- and sent out something like 700 applications/resumes without getting a single interview. It was real tough. Be there for her, as part of her life that reminds her she is more than just her ability to make profit for someone else and pay her bills. If you want to actively help her find work, maybe have a night over where you both hang out, have drinks, and job search with her. It’s up to her to apply but another pair of eyes looking for openings helps.

  242. Tomato Soup*

    Rant I guess.
    I’m just tired of this job search for a job related to my degree. Maybe I shouldn’t be so hard ass about it but it’s not like a higher paying job landed in my lap rn lol.

    I have been working irrelevant jobs since I graduated, partly I find myself it work on my soft skills and those typical situationinterview points, but at the same time I can’t omit them off my resume because then they’ll be gap. Maybe I’m being paranoid but it prob looks like I can’t find a job in my field sigh.

    It’s like right now, two years after I graduated I have my soft skills together and interview points ready to go, and my confidence back up, I don’t get as much interviews.

    I’m considering applying to another city neraby but it’s not like the have their own college and STEM graduates every year. Plus I’m also scared of driving to another city AND a lil scared of living on my own.

    I also thought about paying for another online certification and see if I can get a job in food prodution industry with 0 experience, since they seemed to have a lot of regulations. but my crippling self doubt is telling me that at the end of the day, someone with more relevant degree (food science or maybe chem?) and job expereince will win over me.

    I’m not 5 years after graduate yet, I don’t want to regret my decision of my degree (something I feel like a litlte more niche- Biotech) and I just want to keep trying. At least my mood has past the point of getting sad or depressed over every rejection email to the point of “oh well”.

    1. Close Bracket*

      > but my crippling self doubt is telling me that at the end of the day, someone with more relevant degree (food science or maybe chem?) and job expereince will win over me.

      That’s not crippling self-doubt. That’s a rational evaluation of the possibilities. I’m in that position, and I deal with it by accepting that there are people with years of experience in that exact position out there and going ahead and applying anyway. Those people with years of experience either might not get an offer for one reason or another, or they might turn down an offer for one reason or another.

      If you apply, you might get the job. If you don’t apply, you definitely won’t get the job.

      1. Close Bracket*

        D’oh, that was supposed to be,

        If you apply, you might not get the job. If you don’t apply, you definitely won’t get the job.

  243. TimeLady*

    I accidentally messed up at work today (and I fully own it) by accessing a document on a manager’s computer that I needed. And he reported me to HR and kept berating me on how a “lapse in judgment” was an understatement and I’m convinced he wants me fired because I’m on an improvement plan, and he questioned my judgment. Is there a difference between frustrated and this guy could actually be out to get me? What do I do?

    1. Thlayli*

      How do you mean you accessed a document on his computer? You Jean you actually went into his office and opened his computer and got the document? Or you mean it was on s shared drive?

      If you actually went into someone’s computer that you shouldn’t have then I’m surprised you’re still employed to be honest. I don’t think the concept of “out to get you” applied because that’s absolutely grounds for firing someone. He’s totally doing the right thing calling for your dismissal if you actually did that!

      2. Thlayli*

        As for what to do, accept that he’s telling you the truth for a start. Lapse in judgement is an understatement. Acknowledge how badly you messed up, forget about the idea that he’s “out to get you”, and tell HR and him you know you really really crossed the line and what you did was very wrong and tell them you’ll do any training the ask and you will never do this again and promise to work hard to improve in other ways.

        And start job hunting.

    2. Wrench Turner*

      There’s a bit of missing context needed; there’s a difference between finding a file on a shared drive and going in to the office to use their actual computer, or even using a login/password you shouldn’t have. Regardless, if you’re already on an improvement plan and this guy seems to have serious issues with you (justified or not) I would start looking elsewhere immediately. If nothing else, it sounds like an unpleasant environment and there’s other ponds out there where you may be a better fit. Good luck!

    3. UtOh!*

      I too have had these “lapses of judgement” in order to assist a customer or to get something done. I have learned my lesson though and will never do it again. I will go to my manager and ask for direction if I am unable to proceed due to some roadblock by someone else. People take stepping over boundaries very seriously in business, and managers especially have a hard time with that and will take you to task every time. It’s embarrassing and frankly, just not worth it. In the end, you have to cover your own azz.

    4. NacSacJack*

      You were on an improvement plan. While on said plan, you crossed boundaries, broke security and accessed a document on someone else’s computer that you didn’t have the rights to access. I’d pack up your stuff and get ready to be fired.

  244. kent*

    I quit my job due to a toxic work environment three weeks ago. The first week this female coworker who’s 20 years older than me sends me a letter. The letter asked what happened to me and she left her email. She claims were friends and she said she thought I knew it. I emailed her and told her I quit my job. Now she’s trying to mommy me and telling me if I need help she’s there for me. I told her I’m fine financially and feeling well. Then she started getting passive aggressive saying “maybe I should retire”.

    She’s convinced that people who don’t work have their heart and mind shut down. Now she sent me an email telling me they got a new supervisor and to remember to “take my vitamins”. I’m 36 years old and I’m not trying to be rude but I’m thinking it’s time to block this lady. The closest we ever got to being friends at work was when I took a ancestry DNA test because she took one and we were having a conversation about it. Then that didn’t turn out well because she got upset because she found out she was mostly Iberian and she’s into some British TV show called “Fountain Abby”. She found out I was mostly British and was envious of me when I don’t even really care that much about it. She got envious of another coworker because his mother died and left him a mobile home. I’m just tired of her projecting her insecurities on me. She found out where I live from an internet search and that’s how she mailed that letter to me. Don’t you think that’s a little creepy? What do you think?

      1. lily*

        I just blocked her. It was getting way to weird. She’s behaving very passive aggressive and trying to get way too deep into my personal life.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      She may genuinely believe you’re friends. If you don’t want to be, you have no obligation to continue contact. You can be honest and tell her about your concerns – since you don’t have to see her at the office anymore – and if she reacts in some odd way, block her. Maybe a friendship can develop once you set some boundaries. Who knows?

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Wait… So you’re 36 and she’s 56 and she is suggesting that YOU retire?
      Yes, this person is strange, though she may honestly believe she has a connection with you (or she is lonely) or whatever. But if she is bothering you, tell her you’re just WAY too busy doing X, Y and Z and then simply don’t respond to her many messages (if you want to retain a nominal friendship). If she’s still aggressive after that, then block.

      1. lily*

        I think she’s being passive aggressive because she’s envious of me. She gets envious very easily. I’ve seen her envying other people too for minor things. I blocked her on my email today because she was being passive aggressive. She said to me that other people got hired at that job because they wanted to work, then asked me how I feel and suggested that people who don’t work don’t sleep well. She basically projecting a lot of her own crap onto me. I don’t see how people who decide to take a long vacation after being in a toxic work environment aren’t going to be sleeping well and things like that.

  245. galatea*

    This is so late so I don’t know if anybody will see it but :x

    I am in a field I like, but I hate my job. Also I might be having something of a minor crisis (recent death of a parent, coming to terms with abuse from the other parent, disowning family members who are becoming increasingly racist and homophobic, etc). I’d like to stay in data science if possible, but also I want to pick up and do something crazy and leave all of this behind.

    So — 1. have any of you done any of the “teach English in Korea/Japan/etc” programs? and 2. If you did, were you able to return to your field after 1 year/2 years/however long your contract was up?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Hey, it sounds like you’re dealing with a lot right now and I’m sorry about that. I hope you don’t mind me saying that sometimes when people want to leave everything behind they’re trying to leave behind the difficult stuff that unfortunately would come with them, like the pain that they are in. On the other hand a change of scene can be really great!

      I don’t have any experience of those programmes but I just wanted to wish you peace and strength.

    2. Triple Anon*

      I agree with Ramona. Some of the stuff you want to leave may come with you. However, pressing the “reset” button on your life can be a good way to deal with all of it. It can give you a fresh perspective. Spending time abroad tends to be both good for that and very stressful, depending on what happens. Have you lived overseas before? Or traveled a lot? Would it be a completely new experience or would it relate to something you’ve done before?

      I say go for it. It will probably add something to your life and make you a stronger, wiser person. As for returning to your field, I would reach out to people before you leave and explain what you’re doing. And try to stay in touch with it while you’re away. Like do something related to data science while you’re there. Something you could put on a resume and share with prospective employers.

    3. Truffles*

      Sorry to hear you’re going through so much and wishing you the best of luck in figuring things out.

      I don’t have experience with the teach English in a foreign country programs, but I did go on an extended backpacking trip after graduate school, which some people thought was a bit crazy. I’m trying to break into my field (also data science!) now. It hasn’t been that long since I returned, so I can’t comment on how long it’ll take to be successful. I do feel that the perspective, new friendships, and self-knowledge I gained were worth setting my career back 1-2 yrs.

      Best wishes! Trust yourself to make the decision that’s best for you :)

  246. Casca*

    I may be too late, but I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on the new Ministerial code of conduct for Australian politicians following on from the Barnaby saga. The media has generally been pretty scathing and calling it a ‘bonk ban’, but I think it’s so normal to disallow relationships between the boss and their staff! Although I worry it will disproportionately disadvantage women because they’ll be ones shunted into another role…

  247. Jessen*

    I have a bad brain weasel infestation.

    I’m managing ok enough at my current job, but it’s not really the kind of money that I’d feel comfortable saving up a nest egg on. It’s a decent job, but it’s really just…a job. It’s a call center position. It has neither enough interest nor enough potential to hold me to it; it’s a way to get the bills paid.

    I want to go back to school. There’s a lovely cybersecurity program offered online through a local university with fairly affordable in-state tuition. I’m in the DC area and cybersecurity is in high demand. I have little formal computer training but I’m good at it and interested, and I’ve been doing free online computer classes and finding them interesting.

    But half of my brain is dead convinced the minute I attempt anything behind putting in my 40h a week and going home I’m going to crash and burn. And I don’t have a lot of people to rely on if things go haywire. I know a lot of people manage, and there’s no actual reason why I couldn’t do it. I managed a challenging graduate degree. But my infestation is convinced the minute I change anything it’s all going to horribly and I’m going to ruin my life forever.

    Anyone have good advice on weasel extermination?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      I’ve heard a lot about that school’s program and, frankly, it IS in demand so the money is there. Tell the weasels that this is an investment. It’s going to take some late nights, maybe a missed party or two, BUT! soon you will be able to run in a wheel you actually enjoy doing some good for the world – cybersecurity isn’t just important for keeping corporate secrets safe, it literally protects people in the meatspace- and you’ll be paid better for it, so you’ll have better cedar chips for your box, a newer toy to chew on – lots of benefits. It’s in such demand that you can probably move anywhere you want and land a job. It’s an investment in you. Your weasels will thank you later. Good luck!

      1. Jessen*

        It’s not the money my weasels are worried about – it’s my ability to maintain a full time job AND do college classes at the same time. Late nights make me sick, and I already feel like I’m too worn down to do much of anything outside of work, and in my experience…the only thing that’s going to change that is going to be being able to get a better job. Or at least get off night shift, which I can’t afford to do right now. But I’m worried that the hill of working 40h a week and trying to do classes at the same time is just going to be too much to bear and I’ll end up either failing classes or screwing up at work.

        1. Anona*

          You know, sometimes you can only know of something is too much by trying. And it’s so cool that you’ve done the research, and are making this move in preparation for your future.

          I did my graduate program while working full time, in a draining job. It was definitely difficult- it felt like I didn’t have free time. But now, on the other side, I’m so glad I stuck it out.

          If things get bad, it’s ok to take a break from school. But it’s so cool that you are trying!

          1. Jessen*

            Thanks. I think the really hard part is to reassure my weasels that failing a class isn’t the absolute end of the world. I’m so used to the mentality of academia – basically “you have to get straight A’s or your degree is completely worthless.”

        2. Close Bracket*

          > it’s my ability to maintain a full time job AND do college classes at the same time.

          I have gone back to school online while working a full-time job. I entered an engineering master’s program, which I assume to be on par with cyber security in terms of difficulty. I strongly recommend taking only one class at a time. I took two classes my first semester, and oh my, that was a complete mistake. I barely had time to do my laundry. A social life was out of the question. Cooking was out of the question- I lived on frozen meals and the salad bar at Whole Foods (Lean Cuisine was almost always on sale. They are quite tasty, but need something additional to be a complete meal.). TV and books were out of the question.

          You will still be very busy if you take one course, but you might be able to catch a movie sometimes.

          1. Jessen*

            Yeah. That’s at least where I plan on starting. I’m also thinking of how to best manage prepackaged meals, or at least meals that require extremely little input for a lot of output. I have a few soups that are pretty much “open these packages and put them in the pot.” With a crockpot you can pretty much turn that into set and forget. I do some combination of dried beans and either tinned or frozen vegetables, and then keep around grab-and-eat fruit.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Is it possible that doing the course will be really enjoyable and energising and make everything else feel easier?

  248. Edina Monsoon*

    I’m wondering if I did the right thing this week.
    I had an interview so I took the day off work (I could have taken half a day but it felt weird to go back to work for Friday afternoon) and turned up at the interview to be told they thought I’d cancelled it, it turned out someone else had had my interview slot, they’d cancelled and I’d been brought in as a replacement but the admin hadn’t booked me in. One of the woman I was supposed to be interviewing with was there and said she had time to interview me but she couldn’t without her colleague and sent me away. I made sure to tell her I’d taken a day off work but she still sent me away.
    When I contacted the recruiter she was very apologetic and offered to reschedule but I said no, if the one interviewer had given me a courtesy interview I would have been happy to reschedule to meet her colleague at a later date, but to just send me away without even a quick chat about the job didn’t feel like they had respected the fact that I’d taken time off work, and that they didn’t take responsibility for their mistake and that I don’t want to work for a company that treats people in that way. The recruiter called me later to say that the person who made the mistake was very apologetic and they would still like to interview me.
    Do you think I’ve overreacted and would you take another day off to interview with them?

    1. Caledonia*

      How frustrating!
      But you can always go to the interview and just keep your eyes open for any other instances that makes you go “hmm.”
      Depends how much you like the job/company and how much you want to leave your current job.

      People do mess up and sometimes don’t acknowledge it the way that is ideal. They have now apologised twice and may do so again in person if you re-arrange.

    2. Wrench Turner*

      I would, but first thing in the morning so you don’t have to miss a full day of work again. Miscommunications like this happen all the time, unfortunately. It was rude to not chat even a little about the job but the person you met has apologized, so go for it.

    3. Triplestep*

      You don’t say if the recruiter is internal or external, but since your communication is through her, there’s a lot about the company, the interviewers, and the person who booked the interview that is impossible to know. If you’d have the privacy in your current workplace to take a call or a Skype meeting, I’d ask to continue that way.

      To be frank, you don’t know what else the recruiter has relayed to them, or that admin has expressed regret for her mistake, or really how interested in you they are. You only have the recruiter’s word about this. (Yes, I have a mistrust of recruiters having been outright lied to by more than a few.) But you do know you made it clear to one of the interviewers that you’d taken time off of work, so it seems to me that if they are truly interested, they should be willing to accommodate you with a phone or Skype interview.

      1. Edina Monsoon*

        It was an external recruiter, and like you I have been lied to by recruiters in the past and I have got a mistrust of them too.

        In the past when I’ve changed jobs it’s usually been because I’ve been desperate to change because the company was going bust or I was miserable, so I’ve taken the first job I was offered and I’ve ended up in not great situations, but this time I’ve promised myself I’m going to look around for the right job and the right company so I’m not miserable.

        I think it would be a sideways move and not much of a pay increase so I’m not going to bother, I just feel like if they treat me badly at this stage then how will they be when I’m working there.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I think it depends on how interested you were in the job.
      These things DO happen, but it might be a warning sign to look out for if you interview there again.

    5. Close Bracket*

      > The recruiter called me later to say that the person who made the mistake was very apologetic

      I don’t think you overreacted at all. The person who made the mistake was apologetic, but the interviewer still blew you off. You went to all the trouble of taking time off work, dressing up, and showing up, the gracious thing to do would have been to spend at least a little bit of time with you. Did she at least offer to reschedule you or in any way acknowledge the effort you went to?

      I guess it all depends on how easily you get interviews and how interesting this job sounds. If you have a lot of time off and you can take it without raising eyebrows, then go on an interview to practice your interviewing skills and get more of a feel for your interviewer.

  249. EnobyPro*

    I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to thank everyone so much for encouraging me last week. I’ve been applying for jobs like crazy, and already have an interview this Tuesday.

  250. Triple Anon*

    Working from home with pets. How do you do it? I know this came up recently, but the letter and most of the comments were about cats. I have a young dog. He tends to whine and demand attention whenever I’m home.

    So I’m trying to get him into a routine where he gets a lot of exercise first thing in the morning and then knows it’s time to take a nap. If he whines or barks, I ignore him. But it’s hard. He can be very demanding. And he knows how to make a really sweet, sad face and whimpers like, “Mommy, please take care of me!” when all he really wants is to lie on the grass outside while I sit next to him (he gets upset if I go in). I’m trying to teach him to save the whining for when he needs something more important. But that’s a hard lesson to teach a dog since, “I have to pee,” and, “I have to watch the squirrels,” are about equally important to them. Headphones help . . .

    1. NacSacJack*

      I can offer this. They grow out of it. They want your attention. I have full-grown dogs and they will come and bump my arm or body to let me know they want attention. I pet them and then go back to what I was doing. The 11 year old (younger one) will sometimes demand more than once , but when I push away she knows to lie down and let daddy work.

    2. Struck by Lightning*

      Hooves or delicious raw marrow bones that they ONLY get while I’m working (or otherwise can’t be bothered for some reason). Also, living the motto ‘a tired dog is a good dog’….if you can afford a dog runner (not walker…RUNNER) it can make a world of difference.

      With my last German shepherd, I also got up once an hour and did some basic obedience with her for 5 min or so. If she became a pest, what we practiced was ‘bed’ (I say bed & she runs to whatever room in the house her bed is in & lays down on it,I come give her a treat & her release word. By the time she was a year or so old, I could say bed & she’d run lie down and stay there until released even if it was an hour later. VERY useful with things like repairmen, relatives who were afraid of her, or the rare occasion not getting sog hair on my clothes before going out was important)

  251. Kate H*

    My fiancee and I both work for the same company and are buying a house together. When contacted by the bank, HR informed us that they don’t usually do employment verification but that she would make an exception for us since it’s for a mortgage. Can companies really refuse to verify your employment? What happens in these situations?

    1. Enough*

      I suppose the company can do anything it wants. But as you need employment and income verification for loans and renting I don’t understand this. I want to believe that there was something missing from the explanation. I can see them not doing random verification for just any one who calls but doing it for valid companies who need proof of income.

      1. Kate H*

        We did have to have our mortgage officer send over paperwork that we’d signed off for the verification but that wasn’t the issue. She said they didn’t do it at all.

    2. Triple Anon*

      Maybe it’s usually done by another department or a third party? Maybe she meant, “My team doesn’t usually handle this,” but just phrased it poorly?

      1. Kate H*

        Nope. There isn’t anyone else in our company that handles this sort of thing. She’s the only person who performs HR duties and one of two people who handle payroll. If there was a third party involved, I imagine she would have just told us that. Instead, she scolded us anytime we had to go to her office to get the verification sorted out for “taking care of personal matters on work time.”

    3. NacSacJack*

      Your most recent check stubs are sufficient to prove you have gainful employment. That’s all I was ever asked for when applying for a mortgage and a HELOC. we also have a service called WorkNumber which can be used to verify employment and salary.

  252. Tina Belcher*

    I work in a field where I spend a lot of time with kids and family programming, so in pretty much every interview, I’m asked if I’m married, have children, am planning on having kids, etc.

    I know this is illegal, so it makes me uncomfortable. However, my answers are ones that an employer wants to hear, and probably work in my favor: married and on my husband’s health insurance (so I likely won’t enroll in benefits) and no kids/no plans for kids (the job requires a lot of drop-everything-and-run-in sort of stuff, so typically people who have kids below teens quit or get fired because they can’t be there when needed.)

    I just feel weird leveraging a shifty situation to my benefit. What do you think?

    1. Observer*

      It’s actually NOT illegal to ask those questions. Smart hiring people don’t ask because it’s illegal to condition a job offer on most of these things, but it’s legal to ask.

      1. o.b.*

        Would it make you feel less weird if you gave them less information? Say you’re married, but leave out the health insurance details? And if they then ask about your current health insurance, deflect… (That would be a crappy factor to screen candidates on unless something like ‘due to x we (cannot offer) (offer limited) (offer only crazy expensive) health insurance; is that viable for you?’

        It’s weird that they’re asking about the ages of children instead of saying, ‘this job sometimes requires very flexible/last-minute availability; does that work for you?’ I can think of a dozen reasons totally unrelated to young kids that this wouldn’t work for a candidate, and a dozen ways that someone with young kids might be just fine with this.

        In both examples, it seems less skeevy to frame it as “this is what the job can offer/requires” than as “tell us about your personal life and we will render judgment about your suitability.”

        If it’s just one or two employers choosing to ask about these things, that would be a red flag *to me*—but if (as it sounds like) this is a broad convention, then… c’est la vie

  253. TofuCurry*

    I’ve been in my current job for a year, and I’m planning to start looking casually for a new one. I do work on a freelance basis in a different industry, and I’d like to move fully into that industry, ideally. I enjoy the actual work in my current position, so it’s not a huge deal if I don’t find anything. But there are a few reasons I’m not 100% happy with my current job in particular, namely poor cultural fit, little flexibility with the workload, minimal ability to plan my own schedule, and a not-great pay:workload ratio. A lot of this is due to how small the company is and is unlikely to change anytime soon.

    When I started my current job, my boss said that I had to commit to three years in the job, to fully learn the ropes and make it worthwhile. Now that I’m considering my options, I feel like a monster for potentially leaving earlier and also I feel like I will be burning a bridge if I hand in my resignation a day sooner than three years. I know legally there’s nothing he can do to stop me leaving, but I worry about what this will mean for my reference. Any tips on handling this process?

    Obviously this would be quite a way off, as I don’t plan on resigning unless and until I have accepted a good job offer elsewhere. But I’m feeling really guilty even thinking about looking for a new job. I also feel a bit trapped.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Don’t feel guilty. They would lay you off in a heartbeat if they had a need to.

      Start cultivating other people as references, especially anyone else who you could make an argument for being in a supervisory role with respect to you. Managers are preferred at references, but if you are looking while employed, good future employers (lol, caveat) will understand that you don’t want them talking to your current manager.

  254. Slartibartfast*

    One handed recap technique: lay the cap on a table or countertop. Slide needle in cap with one hand. Pick up slowly like a lever, from horizontal to vertical, press the syringe with cap into table surface til it clicks.

  256. Schnapps*

    So here’s a thing.

    My department head is retiring in March. My immediate direct-report manager is assuming her position. The manager position is therefore up for grabs/being posted.

    I am considering applying for it. It’s a big step up (Coordinator to Director), with an applicable pay raise. I’m thinking of asking for an informational-type interview with her (my current manager) before applying. Is this a good idea? And in the interview, what kinds of questions are off limits, acceptable, etc? Other considerations?

    1. Sam Foster*

      What do you hope to gain from the informational-type interview that you wouldn’t gain from the actual interview process?
      If you are testing the waters, I would suggest having a simple conversation with the powers that be where you ask about the opening, share your elevator pitch showing your interest and let them know you are interested.

    2. Jill*

      Why can’t you just have a casual conversation with her about it? She should be able to tell you if you should apply or not.

  257. I should sleep*

    so, in the intro forum post for this class I’m taking, the instructor asks multiple questions. One is what made us decide to take the class. The problem is that I signed up for the class because I really loved the instructor who was scheduled to teach this class, who died. That was the main motivating factor, and I don’t want to pretend it wasn’t. I also don’t want to make the new instructor feel like I’m freezing them out or like I don’t have an interest in the topic – I really do care about the topic, and I’m open to learning from the new instructor, but it just feels so dishonest to list reasons I’m interested in the class and act like I wasn’t taking it because I loved the instructor. Should I do it anyway? Should I just pretend the question isn’t there? Is there a way to acknowledge what happened without coming across as unwilling to move forward?

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      It’s just a prompt for a forum post! Treat it more like small talk and less like an assignment. DON’T say anything about the other instructor. Skip that part of the prompt entirely, if you’d be stuck with making up reasons. Totally not a big deal.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      So maybe it would help to think about why the instructor is asking this. Perhaps they want to know what you want to get from this class so they know what your expectations are? Could you focus more on that – on your particular hopes for what you’d like to learn?

    3. I should sleep*

      Thanks a bunch for the advice. I won’t bring up the previous instructor and will just try to offer the current instructor information that will help.
      I think I freaked out and overthought it because of sleep deprivation+stress (I’d forgotten when the class started, ahaha) and while I’d expected that I’d encounter some painful reminders by not dropping the class, I was caught off guard by it happening on the first assignment (though I don’t think there would’ve been a good time?)

  258. Gigi*

    I’m facing a bit of a dilemma. A month ago I had to take a day off work due to heart problems (which I have medication for), and last week I had to cancel a work shift as I had to stay at university considerably longer than I normally do which I wasn’t aware of before the shift was scheduled. I had originally wanted to block out Wednesdays in case something like that happened or so I could use that time for appointments however the manager insisted that I make myself available on Wednesday afternoons because I finish at 1. Anyway last night I was horribly ill, I haven’t been ill since I’ve woken up and I’ve eaten although I still don’t feel right. I do work with food but I’m worried that my bosses will think Im taking the mickey. I’m not, it’s just with the last shift they couldn’t have picked a worse day to schedule me and I’m not usually off ill a lot, I only had 2 days off for sickness last year and they acted annoyed with one of those days despite the fact that half the town had the same illness.

  259. KayEss*

    Don’t know if anyone’s reading this late on Sunday, but… is it weird for an employer to jump straight to an in-person interview without having a phone interview first? I’ve gotten so used to short phone screens that having a company want me to show up at their offices for an hour right off the bat is disconcerting.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s not that uncommon, especially for entry level positions. It can also be a sign that you’re a strong candidate. I wouldn’t read too much into it, though.

  260. Jimbob*

    . When i work i prefer to not be friendly. I only say hi to make it not awkward. but if im doing a job with someone i am actually very friendly and funny. I just rather not eat lunch with my co workers.

    Basically i am saying i will let the quality of my work do the talking and since i am a scientist working on my projects solo, i can get away with this. While being a cold person.

  261. 2015Royals*

    My manager never has anything prepared for our 1-on-1 meetings, and most of them are cancelled. Should I really have to come up with talking points for the meeting, and if I do should I send them to her in advance so she possibly comes more prepared?

Comments are closed.